The Money Mustache Community

General Discussion => Throw Down the Gauntlet => Topic started by: Car Jack on February 15, 2017, 07:54:42 AM

Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 15, 2017, 07:54:42 AM

I do understand that many here feel that once we hit a huge number like $2M, we *MUST* declare FI and retire.  I'm not there and have an age retirement plan rather than a number and know that DW will feel better, the bigger that number is on the spreadsheet showing total invested assets.  Since my big "2" seems like it's going to stick (RSUs vested today, ESPP the first of March and $10k sitting in a Citi account to get that $400 bonus releases mid March), I think the next goal is the next big number, and the number of the counting shall be....3.

As with the "2" thread, I'm counting investable assets.  Not house, not rental property, not cars, not silver coins.  Too easy to cheat with stuff that needs to be valued, in my humble opinion.

I've seen others note that the first $M is hard, the second easier and the 3rd, 4th etc progressively easier.  I guess we'll see and since I plan to retire about 2 years from now, we'll see how that works when the traditional big income (well.....100k ish engineer's salary) stops and I take odd jobs at hardware stores or driving for Uber or plowing snow from business parking lots for fun.

I'm a recent Bogle follower and only looked at my finances in the last 5 years.  Someone mentioned that people should know the expense ratios of all of their investments.  That made sense to me.  It also dawned on me that I didn't even know what all of my investment accounts were.  A spreadsheet was started, ERs were filled in and comparisons between Contrafund and Total Market Index were performed.  Once convinced that index funds perform relatively equally to actively managed ones, everything was switched over to Index.  Conglomeration was done, moving tiny, old 401k's, 403b's, selling wholevariablewhoknows policies, maxing tax advantaged space and opening a taxable account to put the excess.  All the while, my older son hit college and FAFSA laughed in my face for aid but my mom and DWs dad have been generous, directly paying part of the tuition bill every semester.  Son #2 hit a private high school after his public one totally failed him.  Not a hoidy toidy $70k high school.....$8500 all in a year.  As an aid, I sold off my toy car....a Lotus Elise and replaced it with a car my son could drive to his summer job and use in college....an 04 Outback (45k miles!) bought from the father in-law who bought it new. 

So the plan going forward.  Stay the course.  As the money becomes available, invest more in taxable (Schwab ETFs) and keep the cars as long as possible.  I'm a car guy with a track history, but haven't seen the track from inside a racecar in maybe 7 years (I instructed for a dozen years before this).  So not having a racecar and all that goes with it for expenses has reduced expenses.  We instead visit Lime Rock a few times in the summer and watch the pros do it out there.  I do a bit of credit card and bank account churning for bonuses and have signed up with the new tradeline company to try to cash in on that.....<anxiously awaiting>.  My "life" spreadsheet is broken down by year and events expected and I fill in reality as it happens. 

So I am interested in stories from others and their plans going forward.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: bigchrisb on February 20, 2017, 04:12:40 PM

Sounds like you are well on your way!  Out of curiosity, do you have a home mortgage and own your own home?  I found it psychologically necessary to track home equity while I was paying down the home, as otherwise I had a propensity to over-leverage myself.  Now that I've fully offset the debt, I'm more agnostic about it.  Depending on approaches, I belong either in the race to $2m or the race to $3m, as net worth including residential property is about $2.75m, while net worth of just liquid stocks, bonds and cash is more like $1.75. 

Sounds like you are on auto-pilot and will cruise over your target given a bit of time.

For me, I think I'm about to see a slowdown in the accumulation rate - taking a sabbatical/trial FIRE while my wife does an overseas posting, and thinking about throwing some kids into the mix.  I'm expecting the next million target to take a few years, and be more in the hands of the markets than determined by my earned income.

 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on February 21, 2017, 06:38:57 AM

I paid off my house about 15 years ago.  Back then, I was an overly cautious investor, having bought company stock during the '87 selloff.  So paying off debt and the mortgage was the only ways I invested.

There's nothing wrong with tracking net worth and using that number for goals to attain.  I constantly change my goals once one is reached.  I had the $2M goal for quite a while for investments only.  Then it was to hit $1M within just my rollover IRA (not quite there).  When I hit that, I'll set some new, short term, attainable, arbitrary goal.  I've actually got one small goal in my Vanguard account to get back to zero.  It's been in developed international for about 2 years and is still under water.  I'm $2900 from getting to zero on a $250k account.

I still sweat the small stuff.  From the tradeline thread, I read about low balance forgiveness and tried it on several of my cards.  $0.98 forgiven on Barclays and $1.96 forgiven on discover.  Sounds like mouse nuts but free money is free money.  I showed my wife the Discover statement which also gave me $0.10 in rewards because I spent that $1.96 on gas, which is a 5% category this quarter.  And yah.....I pick up pennies on the sidewalk.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: TheAnonOne on February 24, 2017, 09:49:07 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 15, 2017, 07:54:42 AM

I do understand that many here feel that once we hit a huge number like $2M, we *MUST* declare FI and retire.

Well, you MUST declare FI because you are FI either way.

RE has never been a requirement here, the point is doing what YOU want after that point because BEFORE FI you are more or less forced to work to survive.


All that being said....by the time someone hits FI, work starts to have an ever decreasing effect on your networth. When someone is saving 100k a year, and only has 100k in the bank, work is pushing them 100% higher!

If they have 2 million in the bank, that same 100k is only 5% so ultimately, one person working and one person NOT working will go from 2 to 3 million at a somewhat similar rate.

To make it a bit more extreme. If you had 100mil in the bank, would you keep work a whole year to go from 100,000,000 to 100,100,000? Probably not.

Ultimately, it's up to you, that's the best part about FI! Though, for many here, @ 2 million, the desire to work and indeed the effectiveness both decline.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: PathtoFIRE on February 24, 2017, 02:12:52 PM

Congrats on reaching 2, and looking forward to seeing you hit 3.  We are also on the race to 3, having just crossed over to 1 literally today (at least for the first time, who knows how many times we'll zigzag in the next few years).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on February 26, 2017, 12:34:07 PM

Quote from: Weathering on February 24, 2017, 05:05:54 PM

Best part about being a Mustacian between $2M and $3M is that no one knows.
Mustacians in this savings bracket don't stick out as presenting an image of being "rich."
Most people who display the image of being rich really are living paycheck to paycheck.

A guy bought in iPhone 5 off me via Craigslist about a month ago. He was in the US from Costa Rica in order to skydive at 7 different locations. He drove a 1990s VW van (not old enough to have value and definitely not running well). He looked like a 50 year old hippy, yet I would wager that he is more financially independent than most of my gold-collar friends.

Stealth wealth is the place for me.  I'm just not comfortable letting people know my NW has crested 2M.  Since we still work it doesn't show much.  I shop at the dollar store and Goodwill.   My vehicle is 9 years old.  We haven't moved out of the home we bought in 1992.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on April 21, 2017, 07:35:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 26, 2017, 12:34:07 PM

Quote from: Weathering on February 24, 2017, 05:05:54 PM

Best part about being a Mustacian between $2M and $3M is that no one knows.
Mustacians in this savings bracket don't stick out as presenting an image of being "rich."
Most people who display the image of being rich really are living paycheck to paycheck.

A guy bought in iPhone 5 off me via Craigslist about a month ago. He was in the US from Costa Rica in order to skydive at 7 different locations. He drove a 1990s VW van (not old enough to have value and definitely not running well). He looked like a 50 year old hippy, yet I would wager that he is more financially independent than most of my gold-collar friends.

Stealth wealth is the place for me.  I'm just not comfortable letting people know my NW has crested 2M.  Since we still work it doesn't show much.  I shop at the dollar store and Goodwill.   My vehicle is 9 years old.  We haven't moved out of the home we bought in 1992.

Me too!  While we are not quite at 2M yet ( see the other thread ), we should be there soon.

Stealth wealth is awesome.  We also stayed in our original home in a modest neighborhood.  I really don't feel the need to do the 'keeping up with the Joneses' thing like so many are starting to do again.  I can guarantee you that many who do that are only presenting an image.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Koogie on April 21, 2017, 07:44:34 AM

Just crested into this bracket recently on the back of the market surge (based on our liquid portfolio only).  I have a feeling we'll dip into and out of this bracket over time based on returns.  Have no real plans to hit 3MM (since we are both already semi-RE)   but you never know what the future holds.
 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on April 21, 2017, 01:17:18 PM

I'm probably working till about June 2019.  I want to say I retired at 50 and that's the last month to make the claim.   Gives us time to fund two more rounds of 401ks and Roth IRAs.  Will start HSA then as well.  Our youngest is headed to trade school and should finish up about then.  Gives me time to hike the AT SOBO south from Maine.   Going to use vacation time to start working north from GA early 2019 for a few hundred miles. 
Then not sure presently where we go.  Hope to spend about half of what the 2M will yield so it can grow. Will probably find work if it dips below 2M for very long.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: markbike528CBX on April 21, 2017, 01:53:16 PM

Replying to sneak in by cheating (counting house equity for this purpose).
1.9M liquid (90% equities) and net house equity  ~0.3M.

I'm  hoping to be in honestly (liquid NW only) soon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on April 21, 2017, 09:01:19 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on April 21, 2017, 01:53:16 PM

Replying to sneak in by cheating (counting house equity for this purpose).
1.9M liquid (90% equities) and net house equity  ~0.3M.

I'm  hoping to be in honestly (liquid NW only) soon.

Lots of us will be legitimate soon.  We'll have the option of hanging out with those slouches on the 1M to 2M thread till then.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on April 21, 2017, 09:03:27 PM

Quote from: Koogie on April 21, 2017, 07:44:34 AM

Just crested into this bracket recently on the back of the market surge (based on our liquid portfolio only).  I have a feeling we'll dip into and out of this bracket over time based on returns.  Have no real plans to hit 3MM (since we are both already semi-RE)   but you never know what the future holds.

You made it this far I'd think 3M is on autopilot.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on April 21, 2017, 09:05:12 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on April 21, 2017, 07:35:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 26, 2017, 12:34:07 PM

Quote from: Weathering on February 24, 2017, 05:05:54 PM

Best part about being a Mustacian between $2M and $3M is that no one knows.
Mustacians in this savings bracket don't stick out as presenting an image of being "rich."
Most people who display the image of being rich really are living paycheck to paycheck.

A guy bought in iPhone 5 off me via Craigslist about a month ago. He was in the US from Costa Rica in order to skydive at 7 different locations. He drove a 1990s VW van (not old enough to have value and definitely not running well). He looked like a 50 year old hippy, yet I would wager that he is more financially independent than most of my gold-collar friends.

Stealth wealth is the place for me.  I'm just not comfortable letting people know my NW has crested 2M.  Since we still work it doesn't show much.  I shop at the dollar store and Goodwill.   My vehicle is 9 years old.  We haven't moved out of the home we bought in 1992.

Me too!  While we are not quite at 2M yet ( see the other thread ), we should be there soon.

Stealth wealth is awesome.  We also stayed in our original home in a modest neighborhood.  I really don't feel the need to do the 'keeping up with the Joneses' thing like so many are starting to do again.  I can guarantee you that many who do that are only presenting an image.

 
Hard to believe it's really real at times.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: begood on May 04, 2017, 02:41:19 PM

*waves* Hi! I'm coming over from the Race to $1M to $2M thread. Copied my intro info from over there:

Quote

Our net worth is at 2.3 right now. My husband maxes out his 403(b), which, including maxing catch-up contributions  and the employer match, added up to $30.5K last year. But it read as "noise" (redacted poorly worded phrasing) didn't affect our  overall net worth much. The additions we are making don't make a big difference when the market goes up, and they won't make a big difference when the market goes down.

We live in provided housing at my husband's job, and we don't want to be landlords, so we haven't had real estate since we lost $80K on the sale of our house in 2009. We have REITs but no equity. So aside from 7% we keep in money market accounts and a CD because if my husband lost his job, we'd lose both his income and housing, our entire stache is out there in "Return is Not Guaranteed Land", which feels darker and more foreboding the older I get.

We made our first million by saving in a corporate culture where most of our peers spent. The climb to the second million got a huge boost with a $300K inheritance in 2014. But now I don't see a way to 3 or 4, so I would love to hear more from libertarian4321 about why those are easier/inevitable. Frankly, I'm more worried about that value dropping in half than I am convinced it will double.

Besides not having any home equity, the looming truth of eventual COLLEGE COSTS is starting to set in. I've got a bright, artistic, introverted, straight-As ninth grader who to date has absolutely tanked her standardized tests and would flounder in a big university environment. So we are looking at small liberal arts colleges (SLAC) that cost umpteen dollars a year.

And the whole healthcare thing is literally giving me headache today. Aging is a preexisting condition - we're all going to get it eventually. Even at 52, I'm basically uninsurable on the open market. Do we all just hope we can keep jobs with health insurance?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on May 04, 2017, 02:50:12 PM

Quote from: begood on May 04, 2017, 02:41:19 PM

*waves* Hi! I'm coming over from the Race to $1M to $2M thread. Copied my intro info from over there:

Quote

Our net worth is at 2.3 right now. My husband maxes out his 403(b), which, including maxing catch-up contributions  and the employer match, added up to $30.5K last year. But it read as "noise" (redacted poorly worded phrasing) didn't affect our  overall net worth much. The additions we are making don't make a big difference when the market goes up, and they won't make a big difference when the market goes down.

We live in provided housing at my husband's job, and we don't want to be landlords, so we haven't had real estate since we lost $80K on the sale of our house in 2009. We have REITs but no equity. So aside from 7% we keep in money market accounts and a CD because if my husband lost his job, we'd lose both his income and housing, our entire stache is out there in "Return is Not Guaranteed Land", which feels darker and more foreboding the older I get.

We made our first million by saving in a corporate culture where most of our peers spent. The climb to the second million got a huge boost with a $300K inheritance in 2014. But now I don't see a way to 3 or 4, so I would love to hear more from libertarian4321 about why those are easier/inevitable. Frankly, I'm more worried about that value dropping in half than I am convinced it will double.

Besides not having any home equity, the looming truth of eventual COLLEGE COSTS is starting to set in. I've got a bright, artistic, introverted, straight-As ninth grader who to date has absolutely tanked her standardized tests and would flounder in a big university environment. So we are looking at small liberal arts colleges (SLAC) that cost umpteen dollars a year.

And the whole healthcare thing is literally giving me headache today. Aging is a preexisting condition - we're all going to get it eventually. Even at 52, I'm basically uninsurable on the open market. Do we all just hope we can keep jobs with health insurance?

Us too!  Our 12th grader does great in school but also has not-so-great standardized test scores.  It was the same way with my wife and I.  Frankly, I think standardized tests are a complete joke ( because I'm not good at them..I'm sure ).  She is going to go to our in-state university though.  However, even that can really add up.

And I'm in the same boat with the healthcare issues.  Our family DOES have someone with a 'pre-existing'' condition and it is downright scary to think what might happen.  Folks only seem to be against all of these 'pre-existing' condition protections until it happens to them or someone in their family.  I have seen it time and time again.  It just boggles my mind...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: markbike528CBX on May 04, 2017, 02:57:00 PM

Quote from: begood on May 04, 2017, 02:41:19 PM

.............. So we are looking at small liberal arts colleges (SLAC) that cost umpteen dollars a year.

While your situation might be different, I note that there are scholarships and the like out there, sometimes linked to a specific school and situation (see below).  I found Juniata College to be affordable, a great school (as opposed to a big frat house party).   I mention it since your location is Middle-Atlantic.

When I visited (34 years ago) I was given a tour by a full professor of chemistry, who explained Nuclear Magnetic Resonance in a single, simple sentence.  That professor is finally slimming down his hours this year.  Going back for 30th reunion this year.


 One of the few scholarships for left-handed students is the Frederick and Mary F. Beckley Scholarship, which was created in 1979 at Juniata College in Pennsylvania. Worth $1,000 to $1,500 annually, this scholarship is reserved for lefties who have completed at least their freshman year at Juniata with top academic achievement above the 3.3 GPA mark and campus leadership. Applications must include two personal references, proof of financial need, and certification of grades.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: begood on May 04, 2017, 03:00:47 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on May 04, 2017, 02:57:00 PM

Quote from: begood on May 04, 2017, 02:41:19 PM

.............. So we are looking at small liberal arts colleges (SLAC) that cost umpteen dollars a year.

While your situation might be different, I note that there are scholarships and the like out there, sometimes linked to a specific school and situation (see below).  I found Juniata College to be affordable, a great school (as opposed to a big frat house party).   I mention it since your location is Middle-Atlantic.

When I visited (34 years ago) I was given a tour by a full professor of chemistry, who explained Nuclear Magnetic Resonance in a single, simple sentence.  That professor is finally slimming down his hours this year.  Going back for 30th reunion this year.


 One of the few scholarships for left-handed students is the Frederick and Mary F. Beckley Scholarship, which was created in 1979 at Juniata College in Pennsylvania. Worth $1,000 to $1,500 annually, this scholarship is reserved for lefties who have completed at least their freshman year at Juniata with top academic achievement above the 3.3 GPA mark and campus leadership. Applications must include two personal references, proof of financial need, and certification of grades.

Thanks for that info on Juniata, markbike528CBX. As luck would have it, my daughter is a leftie! However, we will not have "proof of financial need", since we're here on this thread. :)

We're going to look at test-optional schools. She should have a pretty darn good art portfolio to offer up instead of SAT scores, and my understanding is that a lot of colleges do just sort of wave their hands and "grant" lower tuition than the sticker price, at least once you're down below the Top 50 in the rankings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: PathtoFIRE on May 05, 2017, 09:39:08 AM

There are a number of smaller colleges that provide free tuition. I did a google search, and the number vary, here is one of the top links, but take a look yourself
http://www.valuecolleges.com/top-25-tuition-free-colleges/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on May 05, 2017, 02:19:02 PM

I think you'll indeed find that the lower ranked a school, the more merit aid your daughter will attract.  My son nearly flunked out freshman and sophomore year of high school and spent junior and senior years bringing his overall gpa slightly above average.  He went to a lower ranking technical private college his first year and received 25% of total cost in merit aid.  We get zip through FAFSA. 

It's definately tough.  Have a job and you make too much (anything above the government's official poverty level is "available to pay for college") but retire early and with health insurance so up in the air, how do you pay for that?

I've got one half way through college and another who is a freshman in high school.  With both of them, there is the expectation that they're not just "going to college".  If there is not a well defined career from the chosen major, I'll be funding plumbing or HVAC school.  The cost of a Lamborghini Huracan (what my older son's college costs.....no, really, the MSRP is a direct match) for an engineering degree I can handle.  For an underwater basket weaving degree?  Nope.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: begood on May 05, 2017, 02:46:00 PM

I hear you, Car Jack. I feel like things are different now. When I went to college in the early 1980s, college was when you figured out what you wanted to do with your life. Now we expect high school kids to know by the time they pick a college, so that college can match their career goal.

I'm hoping my daughter doesn't get star-struck at the idea of an art college. I'd much much rather she go to a LAC and double major - art and business, art and economics, graphic design and marketing, or major/minor. I have always told her that she IS an artist, but that vocation and avocation are not always the same thing, and she does need to be able to support herself.

But life is long and people change and grow. My dad didn't start his life's work until 40. He didn't start college until age 31, after serving in WWII. He didn't know as a soldier from a small mill town in New Jersey that he'd end up dean of a top journalism school twenty-five years later.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on May 07, 2017, 08:08:36 AM

Art and business is a good match.  I played in our church band for several years and our best singer was a music college grad.  Between services, she lamented that she didn't take at least music business, rather than just music performance because at 25, she had no choice but to live in her parents basement.

Another example I'll throw out there is my sister.  She received and art degree but finding no jobs in art, took a legal admin type course.  She's worked in law offices for many years doing the background work that law offices do.  She still does her art for fun (we have great paintings of our cats) but makes no money from it.

Changing majors can be ok.  My older son did this.  He was in a computer engineering program and just didn't intuitively get it.  I'm a EE and noticed his inability to look at a circuit and figure out generally what it did.  He could go through the 9 pages of math and come up with the equation defining it but not understand what's going on.  He switched to civil engineering where things made much more sense.  This was a great thing to realize.  Sure, some credits were somewhat lost but he didn't end up at the end of a Bachelors degree with an occupation that he would grow to hate. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on May 07, 2017, 11:35:26 AM

I thought I might throw a marker in here.

I hope I don't fall to the temptation to actively join the race to $3M, but fear I might.

Firstly, our progress thus far.....

In March we passed $2.5M AUD. not so long ago that would have been $2.5M USD, but not so anymore. I should pass $2M USD at some point this year, all going to plan.

We are currently renting, but do own 2 houses which are rented out, one was our former home before we moved Overseas for work. We are not sure whether we will move back there or sell. Currently the plan is to sell and buy something significantly cheaper. The other place was bought purely as a rental. We do plan on buying a home at some point, so our invested NW will take a hit at some point.

So with financial introductions done, back to the fear that I might be tempted to race to $3M USD.....

.... are you ready for some MMM blasphemy.... :-O

Whilst $2.5M is a lot of money, i am a little tempted with the thought that if I don't touch that money, then 10 years from now it will most likely be worth $5 million, and 20 years from now, when I would be a normal retirement age, it could potentially be worth $10 million.

$10 million is a crazy amount of money!!!!.... even if it is only Aussie dollars.

I struggle to imagine how we could possibly spend $500,000 a year. I certainly can't even fathom being worth $10 million, but somehow we have put ourselves in a position where, even if we never save another cent, we could end up very wealthy with a NW of $10 million. Maybe our mustachian selves will need a makeover. Maybe we will buy a second car. Lol.

So where to from here.....

My DW is a school teacher and loves her job. She is still in her 30s (just) with no plans of retiring. She wants to work maybe 6 months a year once I stop work. Her part time wage From 6 months/ year of work will cover about 60% of our expenses, so for us to keep piling up money by not touching the stash at all, I would only need to find something that pays a fraction of what I currently earn. I definitely don't want to work more than 6 months a year, but would definitely contemplate some form of contract/ seasonal work, maybe a few company directorships or something like that.

So plan A is to FIRE in 2 years once we hit $3M AUD in net worth (2.25M USD). We will then take a long trip, maybe a year or so and relocate back to Australia..... we can then live quite a spendypants FIRED life with no more work.

Plan G (for greedy) is the same as plan A, but once we get back to Oz we seek to cover our costs through part time work, and watch our NW climb over time to $5M, and maybe even $10M in the extreme case.

I don't think we will be able to make a decision until after I pull the pin on the current job 2 years from now. Counting down the days to our first FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on May 07, 2017, 11:57:14 PM

One word, itchyfeet: philanthropy.

PTF. If I include the value of DH's defined benefit pension, we're there. I'm not counting our paid-for 1.3M home or the equity in our (lightly mortgaged) SFH rental properties. We're not racing anymore though, just cruising along, enjoying life, and the scenery, and smelling the roses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: begood on May 08, 2017, 05:23:11 AM

Quote from: Dicey on May 07, 2017, 11:57:14 PM

One word, itchyfeet: philanthropy.

PTF. If I include the value of DH's defined benefit pension, we're there. I'm not counting our paid-for 1.3M home or the equity in our (lightly mortgaged) SFH rental properties. We're not racing anymore though, just cruising along, enjoying life, and the scenery, and smelling the roses.

Dicey, if you don't mind my asking, how do you assign a value to your husband's defined benefit pension? My husband should get about $27K/year (flat,non-COLA'd, 50% joint survivor) starting in 13 years. He worked for the MNC (multinational corporation) for 20 years, then moved on to a second career at age 43. He could take the pension earlier, but the amount would drop precipitously, so we hope to wait until he's 65. The pension is insured by PBGC.

We also have the option of retiree health insurance through the company, but would have to pay both the employer and employee amounts, currently $18K/year. In the current unstable environment, that might be the only way I could get health insurance at all if my husband lost his job. Expensive as it would be, at least it is an option we can keep in our back pocket.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on May 08, 2017, 07:44:20 AM

Caught the spread sheet up to date since the new values of my savings bonds have clicked over for May.  Now at $2.1M.

I think I'm also ultra conservative on my numbers.  I have a very small pension coming where I could take $53k lump sum right now if I wanted (I left the job in 1993) and do not include it in any of my numbers.  I probably should count it but I guess I always look for any downside that might happen.  I'm happy that the pension is at Fidelity now (the original company no longer exists). 

I love doing mouse nuts kinda things.  My insurance was due so I went online and made 3 payments.  First 2 were with new cards that I had to get the spend to collect the bonus.  Then I overpaid the thing with my double cash.  Just got an overpayment check Friday, so there's $20 in undeserved points that I'm happy to keep.  :D

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Laura33 on May 08, 2017, 08:00:20 AM

Quote from: begood on May 08, 2017, 05:23:11 AM

Dicey, if you don't mind my asking, how do you assign a value to your husband's defined benefit pension? My husband should get about $27K/year (flat,non-COLA'd, 50% joint survivor) starting in 13 years.

Well, you didn't ask me :-), but what I do is divide by .04, to figure how how much the "'stache-equivalent" amount is.  E.g., to take out $27K/yr at the 4% rule, I'd need $675K.  Now, that is the 'stache-equivalent in 13 years, when he is eligible for that $27K/yr.  So if you want the current value of that, you could present-value it back to today's dollars.  But personally, I don't care that much -- I just like to know that, hey, in 13 years, I will have the equivalent of $675K more in my 'stache. 

But actually, even that is bass-ackwards, because the whole point of the 'stache is to throw off income -- so when you already know the income, you don't even need to calculate an equivalent 'stache value.  So in your case, I'd just knock the $27K off of the annual income you need, and then figure out how much else you need to save to cover the delta.  E.g., I need $40K/yr, I have $27K/yr already guaranteed, so my delta is $13K/yr.  Ergo, 4% rule, I need $13K x 25 = $325K more in my 'stache in 13 years. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: begood on May 08, 2017, 08:09:53 AM

Quote from: Laura33 on May 08, 2017, 08:00:20 AM

Quote from: begood on May 08, 2017, 05:23:11 AM

Dicey, if you don't mind my asking, how do you assign a value to your husband's defined benefit pension? My husband should get about $27K/year (flat,non-COLA'd, 50% joint survivor) starting in 13 years.

Well, you didn't ask me :-), but what I do is divide by .04, to figure how how much the "'stache-equivalent" amount is.  E.g., to take out $27K/yr at the 4% rule, I'd need $675K.  Now, that is the 'stache-equivalent in 13 years, when he is eligible for that $27K/yr.  So if you want the current value of that, you could present-value it back to today's dollars.  But personally, I don't care that much -- I just like to know that, hey, in 13 years, I will have the equivalent of $675K more in my 'stache. 

But actually, even that is bass-ackwards, because the whole point of the 'stache is to throw off income -- so when you already know the income, you don't even need to calculate an equivalent 'stache value.  So in your case, I'd just knock the $27K off of the annual income you need, and then figure out how much else you need to save to cover the delta.  E.g., I need $40K/yr, I have $27K/yr already guaranteed, so my delta is $13K/yr.  Ergo, 4% rule, I need $13K x 25 = $325K more in my 'stache in 13 years.

Laura33, I could hug you! Thank you for laying it all out so clearly for me. That's pretty awesome. And it reassures me that we probably did the right thing not taking a lump sum when it was offered a couple of years ago, since it was less than 1/3 of the equation you posted above. I realize we're rolling the dice on the annuity being what's promised. The pension is insured with PBGC, so he should get something.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on May 08, 2017, 08:34:10 AM

I have a small defined benefit pension entitlement as well from 55, that will be CPI adjusted, with 50% to be paid to DW after I croak.

I value it similar to you. Ie: Entitlement in today's $ x 25, inflated forward 10 years at 3% inflation and discounted at 7%.

Being a spreadsheet nerd, the thing I like about the inflating/ discounting is that every month I unwind the inflation/discount by another month, and my stash grows :-)

I use a multiple of 25x to honor the 4% rule, but in the context of SWRs the pension is worth more, because it's not subject to sequence of returns risk, so you could prob even user a higher multiple, as you could technically take a riskier view on your remaining stash thanks to the pension. There is 100% certainty my pension will last 30, 40 or 50 years. However long I live post 55. Just as long as the Govt doesn't go bankrupt.

I do agree that once I am receiving the pension, the most correct way to factor in its value into planning is just to reduce the expenditure to be covered by the "stash" by the amount of the pension. But for today, for NW calculations, I like to assign a value to it. It makes me feel closer to my goal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: wannabe-stache on May 16, 2017, 01:50:57 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 21, 2017, 06:38:57 AM

I paid off my house about 15 years ago.  Back then, I was an overly cautious investor, having bought company stock during the '87 selloff.  So paying off debt and the mortgage was the only ways I invested.

There's nothing wrong with tracking net worth and using that number for goals to attain.  I constantly change my goals once one is reached.  I had the $2M goal for quite a while for investments only.  Then it was to hit $1M within just my rollover IRA (not quite there).  When I hit that, I'll set some new, short term, attainable, arbitrary goal.  I've actually got one small goal in my Vanguard account to get back to zero.  It's been in developed international for about 2 years and is still under water.  I'm $2900 from getting to zero on a $250k account.

I still sweat the small stuff.  From the tradeline thread, I read about low balance forgiveness and tried it on several of my cards.  $0.98 forgiven on Barclays and $1.96 forgiven on discover.  Sounds like mouse nuts but free money is free money.  I showed my wife the Discover statement which also gave me $0.10 in rewards because I spent that $1.96 on gas, which is a 5% category this quarter.  And yah.....I pick up pennies on the sidewalk.

i am curious.  at what point do you loosen up?  when you have $3M, will you be "ok" spending $ on going out to eat?  buying a nice bottle of wine? etc.?

i am new to this line of thinking.  i have always been a big saver but i had jobs that allowed me to spend as well.  i have approx. $1M of savings (my wife has an additional $500K) and we are only 37 and 33 respectively. i suppose i could have saved more but i wouldn't trade our trips to greece or israel or italy for anything.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on May 16, 2017, 05:59:41 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on May 16, 2017, 01:50:57 PM

i am curious.  at what point do you loosen up?  when you have $3M, will you be "ok" spending $ on going out to eat?  buying a nice bottle of wine? etc.?

i am new to this line of thinking.  i have always been a big saver but i had jobs that allowed me to spend as well.  i have approx. $1M of savings (my wife has an additional $500K) and we are only 37 and 33 respectively. i suppose i could have saved more but i wouldn't trade our trips to greece or israel or italy for anything.

So, that's something that most people have to answer for themselves.  I have not been a model Mustachian by any means.  I drive a Wrangler, I used to own a Racecar and a Cobra replica and then a Lotus Elise.  I've owned an E30 M3.  I go to lunch everyday at work (Subway).  Wife and I don't drink so we've likely saved lots of money there.  But we watch our money.  I do nearly all of our car repairs (my garage has a lift and just about any tool you could name......remember I had a racecar).  We're older parents (1st born when I was 40, second I was 44) so we still have one in college and one in high school.  I'm figuring that at 2.5M, I'm going to be "fine".  We believe in providing the best education we can for the kids so, yah....I make too much to get financial aid and the bill is $60k a year.  That's fine.  We won't go to Europe until the second is at least in college. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on May 16, 2017, 09:18:59 PM

We're going to Puerto Vallarta Saturday for a week of vacation.   I'm seriously thinking of expatriating in a few years.   Mexico is a possibility, but there are many possibilities. I'm working at least two more years to keep health care for my kids.  Will likely keep citizenship, just move residential status to Florida maybe.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on May 18, 2017, 01:23:42 AM

Quote from: begood on May 08, 2017, 08:09:53 AM

Quote from: Laura33 on May 08, 2017, 08:00:20 AM

Quote from: begood on May 08, 2017, 05:23:11 AM

Dicey, if you don't mind my asking, how do you assign a value to your husband's defined benefit pension? My husband should get about $27K/year (flat,non-COLA'd, 50% joint survivor) starting in 13 years.

Well, you didn't ask me :-), but what I do is divide by .04, to figure how how much the "'stache-equivalent" amount is.  E.g., to take out $27K/yr at the 4% rule, I'd need $675K.  Now, that is the 'stache-equivalent in 13 years, when he is eligible for that $27K/yr.  So if you want the current value of that, you could present-value it back to today's dollars.  But personally, I don't care that much -- I just like to know that, hey, in 13 years, I will have the equivalent of $675K more in my 'stache. 

But actually, even that is bass-ackwards, because the whole point of the 'stache is to throw off income -- so when you already know the income, you don't even need to calculate an equivalent 'stache value.  So in your case, I'd just knock the $27K off of the annual income you need, and then figure out how much else you need to save to cover the delta.  E.g., I need $40K/yr, I have $27K/yr already guaranteed, so my delta is $13K/yr.  Ergo, 4% rule, I need $13K x 25 = $325K more in my 'stache in 13 years.

Laura33, I could hug you! Thank you for laying it all out so clearly for me. That's pretty awesome. And it reassures me that we probably did the right thing not taking a lump sum when it was offered a couple of years ago, since it was less than 1/3 of the equation you posted above. I realize we're rolling the dice on the annuity being what's promised. The pension is insured with PBGC, so he should get something.

More hugs for Laura33 then, because I have no idea. We don't count it that specifically. This may sound weird, but here's why. Our house and cars are paid for, we have three rental properties, we have a boatload of money in equities, a shit-ton of money in cash waiting for whatever we decide to do with it next, and DH is still working, so we're not tapping any of it yet. I've never run a Fire Calc or whatever it's called. I don't use YNAB or whatever the latest budgeting tool is. All we ever did was spend less than we earned and tried to invest the difference wisely. Now, however you slice it, we'll have enough. I mentioned on another thread today that DH's pension plus our SS estimates add up to more than we earn now. We're gonna be fine, so why spend too much time doing endless calculations?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on May 18, 2017, 11:36:13 AM

Quote from: Dicey on May 18, 2017, 01:23:42 AM

Quote from: begood on May 08, 2017, 08:09:53 AM

Quote from: Laura33 on May 08, 2017, 08:00:20 AM

Quote from: begood on May 08, 2017, 05:23:11 AM

Dicey, if you don't mind my asking, how do you assign a value to your husband's defined benefit pension? My husband should get about $27K/year (flat,non-COLA'd, 50% joint survivor) starting in 13 years.

Well, you didn't ask me :-), but what I do is divide by .04, to figure how how much the "'stache-equivalent" amount is.  E.g., to take out $27K/yr at the 4% rule, I'd need $675K.  Now, that is the 'stache-equivalent in 13 years, when he is eligible for that $27K/yr.  So if you want the current value of that, you could present-value it back to today's dollars.  But personally, I don't care that much -- I just like to know that, hey, in 13 years, I will have the equivalent of $675K more in my 'stache. 

But actually, even that is bass-ackwards, because the whole point of the 'stache is to throw off income -- so when you already know the income, you don't even need to calculate an equivalent 'stache value.  So in your case, I'd just knock the $27K off of the annual income you need, and then figure out how much else you need to save to cover the delta.  E.g., I need $40K/yr, I have $27K/yr already guaranteed, so my delta is $13K/yr.  Ergo, 4% rule, I need $13K x 25 = $325K more in my 'stache in 13 years.

Laura33, I could hug you! Thank you for laying it all out so clearly for me. That's pretty awesome. And it reassures me that we probably did the right thing not taking a lump sum when it was offered a couple of years ago, since it was less than 1/3 of the equation you posted above. I realize we're rolling the dice on the annuity being what's promised. The pension is insured with PBGC, so he should get something.

More hugs for Laura33 then, because I have no idea. We don't count it that specifically. This may sound weird, but here's why. Our house and cars are paid for, we have three rental properties, we have a boatload of money in equities, a shit-ton of money in cash waiting for whatever we decide to do with it next, and DH is still working, so we're not tapping any of it yet. I've never run a Fire Calc or whatever it's called. I don't use YNAB or whatever the latest budgeting tool is. All we ever did was spend less than we earned and tried to invest the difference wisely. Now, however you slice it, we'll have enough. I mentioned on another thread today that DH's pension plus our SS estimates add up to more than we earn now. We're gonna be fine, so why spend too much time doing endless calculations?

Or..... why keep working?!!! :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on May 26, 2017, 10:40:17 PM

Oh, hey, Itchyfeet! I've covered it before, so sometimes I skip details so as not to sound like an ol' broken record.

DH works because:

1. His mom has Alzheimer's and she lives with us. He likes to stay busy, so being trapped here would drive him nuts!
(Yeah, FIRE doesn't look a bit like what I imagined right now, but for me, it still beats the hell out of working.)

2. He has 17 out of 20 years needed to hit the sweet spot for his Defined Benefit Pension. Why give that up?

3. He loves his job, has every other Friday off, gets every holiday paid, earns tons of vacation time and has months and months of accrued sick time accumulated. His office is 3.5 blocks from our house. On workdays, we get up early, I make his breakfast, pack his lunch while he eats, and we walk to work together at 5:45. Then I come home and go back to sleep :-)

4. Our current health care coverage has no premiums, no deductibles and tiny co-pays. At 20 years of service, we get $550/month for healthcare, AND we get to stay on the company's healthcare plan at the retiree rate. This is huge. I've had cancer and he obviously has Alzheimer's in the family tree, so to stay on the company's plan will save a boatload of money in healthcare costs for the rest of our lives.

It just wouldn't be frugal or even sensible to leave so much on the table.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on May 26, 2017, 11:41:21 PM

Hey Dicey. Sorry to make you cover old ground again.

You never know,  might do 3 more years myself. We are taking 6 month at a time....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on May 28, 2017, 01:48:24 PM

Quote from: Dicey on May 26, 2017, 10:40:17 PM

Oh, hey, Itchyfeet! I've covered it before, so sometimes I skip details so as not to sound like an ol' broken record.

DH works because:

1. His mom has Alzheimer's and she lives with us. He likes to stay busy, so being trapped here would drive him nuts!
(Yeah, FIRE doesn't look a bit like what I imagined right now, but for me, it still beats the hell out of working.)

2. He has 17 out of 20 years needed to hit the sweet spot for his Defined Benefit Pension. Why give that up?

3. He loves his job, has every other Friday off, gets every holiday paid, earns tons of vacation time and has months and months of accrued sick time accumulated. His office is 3.5 blocks from our house. On workdays, we get up early, I make his breakfast, pack his lunch while he eats, and we walk to work together at 5:45. Then I come home and go back to sleep :-)

4. Our current health care coverage has no premiums, no deductibles and tiny co-pays. At 20 years of service, we get $550/month for healthcare, AND we get to stay on the company's healthcare plan at the retiree rate. This is huge. I've had cancer and he obviously has Alzheimer's in the family tree, so to stay on the company's plan will save a boatload of money in healthcare costs for the rest of our lives.

It just wouldn't be frugal or even sensible to leave so much on the table.

Pensions are a great reason to work a few more years, if you are lucky enough to have one.  People sometimes don't realize what an incredible asset a defined pension can be.  Too bad fewer and fewer people will have them as time goes on.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on May 29, 2017, 01:52:25 AM

You're right, farmecologist.

In his late thirties, DH realized he'd earned a lot of money as a painting contractor,  but didn't have much to show for it. He did his research and applied for his current position, specifically for the retirement benefits. He took a huge pay cut at first. To bridge the gap, he continued painting on the side, which is how we met in 2001. He was married to his high school sweetheart and they had two kids. Fast forward eleven years. I called him to paint my house again. He was a widower by then. We started talking. He painted my house. We kept talking and got married three months later. He doesn't do side jobs much these days, 'cause together we're FI. Instead of working for others on the side, we BRRR houses for fun.

As a bonus, his company is about as solid as they come, so the likelihood of collecting said pension is quite high. Wouldn't derail us if it wasn't all that was promised, but let's hope we never have to find out. We have charitable plans for our excess retirement income.

Quote from: Itchyfeet on May 26, 2017, 11:41:21 PM

Hey Dicey. Sorry to make you cover old ground again.

You never know,  might do 3 more years myself. We are taking 6 month at a time....

Thank you, but no apology is necessary, Itchyfeet!

Six months at a time sounds like an excellent plan.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: markbike528CBX on June 09, 2017, 05:04:44 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on April 21, 2017, 01:53:16 PM

Replying to sneak in by cheating (counting house equity for this purpose).
1.9M liquid (90% equities) and net house equity  ~0.3M.

I'm  hoping to be in honestly (liquid NW only) soon.

I'm now in the "race" fair and square (>$2M liquid), although I'm think I'll be stepping out of the race and let the gains to heavy lifting (they already are) soon.   Hope you all pass me by and wave on your way to $3M.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on June 09, 2017, 07:34:57 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on June 09, 2017, 05:04:44 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on April 21, 2017, 01:53:16 PM

Replying to sneak in by cheating (counting house equity for this purpose).
1.9M liquid (90% equities) and net house equity  ~0.3M.

I'm  hoping to be in honestly (liquid NW only) soon.

I'm now in the "race" fair and square (>$2M liquid), although I'm think I'll be stepping out of the race and let the gains to heavy lifting (they already are) soon.   Hope you all pass me by and wave on your way to $3M.

Just hop on and draft behind us.  Makes us faster too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on June 12, 2017, 06:41:21 PM

Congrats on the new milestone!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on June 30, 2017, 07:41:05 AM

KABOOM!!!

Just tallied up my 30 June numbers and thanks to a weaker USD I have crossed the $2M USD of Net Worth.

Sweet 😁

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: markbike528CBX on June 30, 2017, 09:05:58 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 09, 2017, 07:34:57 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on June 09, 2017, 05:04:44 PM

I'm now in the "race" fair and square (>$2M liquid), although I'm think I'll be stepping out of the race and let the gains to heavy lifting (they already are) soon.   Hope you all pass me by and wave on your way to $3M.

Just hop on and draft behind us.  Makes us faster too.

I wouldn't have thought of that car racing analogy on a financial forum, but it makes sense.
Just reading the forum gives one lots of ideas to add speed to FIRE. Posting helps me think through my logic.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on June 30, 2017, 11:14:49 AM

I was thinking or bicycle racing when I wrote that but car racing works too.  Either way, a bunch of us moving along help each other by staying in a close pack.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on July 07, 2017, 02:08:33 AM

I'm so ready to post here with 2M liquid, NW I'm pretty legit.   Y'all are the cool kids!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Mr Griz on July 09, 2017, 07:46:22 PM

Just checked Personal Capital and it shows us at $2.25M, not including the mortgage-free house.

Sadly I didn't realize until recently that things were looking so good.  We've felt for several years that we were in good shape but never had an accounting of all our various IRA's, 401k's and cash accounts until recently.  I stumbled across jlcollinsnh a couple of months ago and that led to MMM and a more focused way of looking at finances.  DW retired a few years ago and I plan to bail this time next year.  (I have some deferred incentive compensation that will vest then).  In the meantime I'm consolidating everything into a couple of Vanguard accounts (one taxable, the other an IRA) and putting our excess cash to work.

The cool thing is that our two pensions should easily cover living expenses.  The 'stache should grow to $3M in a few years without any withdrawals.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on July 10, 2017, 01:22:14 AM

Contratulations Mr Griz. The world is now your playground :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on July 16, 2017, 03:14:10 PM

I wasn't sure if I graduated to this group as our "liquid" includes $519k in pensions.. so assuming they are still there when we plan to start using them then liquid NW is $2.344M.

House (includes two rentals on the same property) I am guessing will net us $400k.. but it currently pays about $20k in rent so its hard to sell..:)

We are both RE'd now

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: SingleMomDebt on July 16, 2017, 05:27:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 16, 2017, 03:14:10 PM

I wasn't sure if I graduated to this group as our "liquid" includes $519k in pensions.. so assuming they are still there when we plan to start using them then liquid NW is $2.344M.

House (includes two rentals on the same property) I am guessing will net us $400k.. but it currently pays about $20k in rent so its hard to sell..:)

We are both RE'd now

Congrats ExFB!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on July 16, 2017, 06:48:50 PM

Quote from: Chippewa on July 16, 2017, 05:27:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 16, 2017, 03:14:10 PM

I wasn't sure if I graduated to this group as our "liquid" includes $519k in pensions.. so assuming they are still there when we plan to start using them then liquid NW is $2.344M.

House (includes two rentals on the same property) I am guessing will net us $400k.. but it currently pays about $20k in rent so its hard to sell..:)

We are both RE'd now

Congrats ExFB!

Thanks Chip..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on July 21, 2017, 12:34:17 AM

Well done Exflyboy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on August 02, 2017, 11:05:55 PM

This fantastic thread deserves to be at the top of the list.  Not near enough traffic here.  Bump.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on August 02, 2017, 11:30:01 PM

Haha Bateaux.

I think the issue is that this thread is almost the antithesis of MMM. If one is frugal why would you need more than $2M.

In any case, accumulating more than $2M either requires a lot of time or a very high income.

I would presume that most people who have accumulated more than $2M are already in there 50s, so not the core audience of MMM. Only a small percentage of MMM posters are doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, CEOs etc who could earn there way to $2M at a young age.

A few will have got very lucky with their finances (like me), by taking risks when young that paid off over the years.

I know that there are plenty of wealthy MMM posters, but most are FIRED and don't give a hoot about any race towards even greater wealth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on August 03, 2017, 02:44:49 AM

Hmm we're FIRED yes.. in our 50's yes.. very high income, well did OK but averaged just over $100k.

We saved for 21 years and hit about $2.7m including the house.

Two hoots about making more? Heck I certainly want more.. but maybe I'm greedy :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on August 03, 2017, 02:49:49 AM

Itchy feet I just read about your biking vacation.   Can't wait to do that.  Maybe we'll meet you guys in person out there soon.  My wife does her second Ironman next month.   All that training would be put to great use.  I'm 49 and have no plans to be working at 51.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on August 03, 2017, 03:31:46 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 03, 2017, 02:44:49 AM

Hmm we're FIRED yes.. in our 50's yes.. very high income, well did OK but averaged just over $100k.

We saved for 21 years and hit about $2.7m including the house.

Two hoots about making more? Heck I certainly want more.. but maybe I'm greedy :)

Well done on amassing $2.7M. Obviously you are not too greedy having chosen FIRE over trying to race to $3.0M. I am sure in good time your $2.7M will grow beyond $3.0M even if it is financing your
Lives at the same time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on August 03, 2017, 05:58:13 AM

Exflyboy I pretty much think that the 3 million number will come unless you do something to avoid it.  Most likely all of us who have breached 2 million NW will see 3 million at some point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 03, 2017, 06:37:15 AM

Interested to see how this thread goes, but I'm on vacation right now...  Funny thing is, I'm 50k or more better off than when I started this trip, makes it tough to focus on being frugal!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: begood on August 03, 2017, 06:40:26 AM

Quote from: Itchyfeet on August 03, 2017, 03:31:46 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 03, 2017, 02:44:49 AM

Hmm we're FIRED yes.. in our 50's yes.. very high income, well did OK but averaged just over $100k.

We saved for 21 years and hit about $2.7m including the house.

Two hoots about making more? Heck I certainly want more.. but maybe I'm greedy :)

Well done on amassing $2.7M. Obviously you are not too greedy having chosen FIRE over trying to race to $3.0M. I am sure in good time your $2.7M will grow beyond $3.0M even if it is financing your
Lives at the same time.

We're in our early 50s, not FIREd (husband lives to work; only child still to edumacate through three years of high school and then college).

My husband's income didn't get above $100K until age 34, and then only for ten years. He started a second career for less than half the money but more than twice the personal satisfaction when he was 44. But we started off with some huge advantages: we married young (and stayed married); our parents paid for our college educations, so no student loans; our parents taught us the "save early and often" mantra AND gave us their old cars, so we started our adult lives without any debt at all. We never had to climb out of a hole.

And then we made four interstate moves with the company my husband worked for. He got raises with each new job, the relo packages were generous, and he banked his bonuses and ESOP. That all allowed us to make the choice twenty years later of moving out of corporate life to academic life without feeling like we would stunt our retirement or limit our daughter's education options.

We are nudging up against $2.5M this week.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Mr Griz on August 03, 2017, 07:04:36 AM

We didn't top $2M because it was a goal as such. It was the side effect of living below our means, avoiding debt, and having well-paying jobs that we liked. DW and I both have good defined benefit pensions that will easily cover our expenses when I retire next year. I expect the stache to be over $2.5M by then and it will just keep growing since we shouldn't need to tap into it. I recently reread MMM's post on giving away money. We're going to be looking at that soon I think.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on August 03, 2017, 07:48:15 AM

Congrats, EFB!

Your post reminded me that I don't count the value of DH's Defined Benefit Pension in our NW tally. Oh well, I'm not gonna start now, because that would kick me out of this thread, lol!.

In response to Itchyfeet, yes, we're in our fifties (me just barely, and on the wrong end), but we were never high wage earners. I hit $105k exactly once in my career and I was self-employed, so I paid a higher SS tax haircut. For reasons outlined upthread, DH still works. He earns about 80k a year and will probably work for 3 more years, to hit the max healthcare benefit.

We live in a HCOLA, so housing has always been disproportionately high, but owning RE is what made the biggest impact on our NW. Well, that and a dogged determination to RE dating back to my early twenties.

I also believe there are more "oldsters" around than you think. However, once FIRE hits and the shackles of work are removed, people take advantage of their freedom and fly away.

Regarding giving it away, per Mr Griz, I highly recommend it. DH and I joke that we tithe and then some to our community and we're having a blast doing it.
 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on August 03, 2017, 08:11:34 AM

I'm 60 and am an engineer.  Wife is a nurse.  She left work when our second son arrived.  I've made 6 figures since about 2000 but attribute our gains to the fact that I've always tried to either put off or not buy things.  I'm not above doing menial work and for years, while driving a racecar on weekends (I instructed so no track fees), I was picking up junk cars of the same make, usually for free for racecar spares.  I learned that I could sell the leftover parts between craigslist, racing sites and car marque sites and then the chassis got cut into pieces I could lift on my trailer and I'd go bring them for scrap money.  Anyways, I've always tried to live way below my means and that's my story.  Never had a title above Principal Engineer. 

We're not retired yet with one son in college (we're paying full boat at an expensive private college) and another with some learning issues who may cost us some significant money.  Once the older one graduates and has a job, I'll consider if I'll quit.  The wife would probably go back to work full time then to get the health insurance.  So I won't really retire early....I'll retire on time.  But I was 43 when our second son came, so we are very late with getting the kids set.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on August 03, 2017, 09:10:46 PM

You guys truly are incredible.   Thanks for the motivation. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: bigchrisb on August 03, 2017, 09:20:22 PM

I'm a little younger, 35, wife 37.  I'm an engineer (a theme?), wife a diplomat.  Fortunate to have higher than average incomes, a high savings rate and to have had a fairly aggressive investment strategy through boom markets. 

However, its a pretty simple formula, spend a lot less than you earn, invest the difference, keep at it for years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on September 02, 2017, 09:51:19 AM

So our NW assuming our house is worth $400k (its a hobby farm with few comps so very hard to estimate) is now $2.766M.

Looking back at this thread I see the NW has grown by $22k since mid July.. or about 2k per week!

This includes the fact we have been in Europe for most of it and of course we're not working.

It seems sort of surreal seeing those number and causes me to think back to 2003 when we had just paid the house off and had very little other savings. My projections at that time showed a NW just North of a million bucks in about 10 years and I had a hard time believing that would really happen.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on September 02, 2017, 10:58:27 AM

Awesome work!

August was a month with zero growth for us, despite working and despite saving around 50% of our pay cheque. Still, 2017 has been good thus far.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 03, 2017, 04:59:02 AM

I'm in the "race" from 2M to 3M slightly over half way not including a paid for house or any other assets.  I am going on 2.5 years Fire'd am 52 and MY DW is 48. Just about a year ago because of the Healthcare Scare with 4 kids she took a job with great benefits offset by not the greatest pay.  The big thing is for us is we save every dime she does make or use it specifically on home improvements as we have been redoing the 1970's raised ranch we bought when we downsized.  We have 4 kids one first year of college far out of state and another one leaving in January. Despite scholarships and 529s saved all our kids play select sports which are not cheap so trying to get our number to grow has been challenging but we have been doing it even after my withdrawals to live on. After this year I feel we should see a significant living cost drop so hopefully unless the market tanks and or? we will be there sooner than later. For me its more about the challenge than the need of money as well as preservation. I always am looking for ways to save but also reward ourselves with trips etc..
My DW liked being Fire'd and home with me but she loves her new job and the hours don't interfere. As many said when your going to work knowing you dont need the money its alot easier. Also we save more because though she is not a big spender I love the challenge more to save so I have find alot more way to do so by doing all the shopping and cooking as well as other things. Good luck to all the 3M chasers.  Like someone else mentioned I too would like to be in real-estate and investments but just never seem to find anything that makes sense but I keep looking.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on September 05, 2017, 02:29:50 AM

I feel inadequate in this thread, since I have to throw in personal real estate to belong.  Glad you're all here, gives me a target to aim for.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on September 05, 2017, 07:21:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 05, 2017, 02:29:50 AM

I feel inadequate in this thread, since I have to through in personal real estate to belong.  Glad you're all here, gives me a target to aim for.

Don't feel that way, Bateaux! Zillow says my house is worth $1.3M and it's paid for. I count it. What I don't count is the value of DH's Defined Benefit Pension or our rental equity. Meh. There's so much in the pot that our income in retirement is going to exceed what we live on now, which is DH's salary. He has three years to go and I pulled the trigger nearly five years ago.

This makes me question the wisdom of filling tax-deferred accounts over taxable all these years. In some ways it seems like it might have been better to pay the taxes up front. FWP,  I know.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on September 05, 2017, 08:37:55 AM

Dicey,

This is definitely in the "good problem to have category".. You took the option to reduce your tax back then, which meant you could save more money.. yes?.. This also meant your stash grew faster.

So now you have arrived and have more money than you will ever need (yes I'm trying hard to believe this too.. But $5m would be extra safe..:)..)... Now you are faced with extra taxes and probably RMD's in retirement...So.. who cares.. You the man more tax.

I would argue the fact you got to FI sooner and now have a bigger pot which far outweigh the sadness of writing a check for extra taxes.

Yes I will be in this boat too.

Besides, your house is worth $1.3M.. well, when your ready you can sell it.. move to a tiny hovel like mine on nearly 6 acres and have almost a million tax free to spend on a huge party.

I think you have done great..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on September 05, 2017, 09:22:08 PM

Don't mind me.  Still in my 40's and I'm being all winey pants about 2 million NW.  Facepunch, double facepunch.  It's all good. 

Actually had to meditate about buying a new leaf blower a few days ago.   It was  $150 at Lowes $165 with tax, found it for $125 at Amazon with no tax or shipping.  WTF!  I'm a dang millionaire, hell technically a multimillionaire on the lowest rung.  I'm debating a leaf blower purchase.   You people have ruined my life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on September 05, 2017, 11:40:48 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 05, 2017, 09:22:08 PM

Don't mind me.  Still in my 40's and I'm being all winey pants about 2 million NW.  Facepunch, double facepunch.  It's all good. 

Actually had to meditate about buying a new leaf blower a few days ago.   It was  $150 at Lowes $165 with tax, found it for $125 at Amazon with no tax or shipping.  WTF!  I'm a dang millionaire, hell technically a multimillionaire on the lowest rung.  I'm debating a leaf blower purchase.   You people have ruined my life.

Same here.. I'm trying to talk myself into buying a new+ bigger refrigerator.. The old one is 20 years old.. too small, doesn't match the rest of the kitchen appliances and the shelves have mostly collapsed!.. My NW is only $2.7M, WTF am I thinking.. I'll go broke if I keep throwing money around like this..:)

Or as was pointed out on my Journal ..."doesn't it feel weird to spend 3X as much on a fridge as you did your car?"...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on September 06, 2017, 01:25:42 AM

Oh, but a new fridge will be so much more energy efficient,  it will pay for itself in no time!

Bateaux, you crack me up!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on September 06, 2017, 01:59:31 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 06, 2017, 01:25:42 AM

Oh, but a new fridge will be so much more energy efficient,  it will pay for itself in no time!

Bateaux, you crack me up!

I did buy a new fridge.  Last one is 25 years old.  Still works, it's still in use in storage room.  Keep beer, water, etc in it.  Ice maker died years ago.   DW wanted fancy ice, water side by side.   Ice without trays is dang nice.  Since I've totally rebuilt and doubled the size of the kitchen everything is new.  Dish washer matches fridge.  Used it once.  Did all my own work.  I did buy the unfinished cabinets, prebuilt.   Still a work in progress.  I have about 19 offers for me to do a tavertine backslash like mine.  No way in hell.  That shit is a PITA!  MMM I'm not when it comes to carpentry, plumbing, electrical, floors.  I do mine but no way I'm hiring myself out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on September 06, 2017, 07:12:12 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 05, 2017, 09:22:08 PM

Don't mind me.  Still in my 40's and I'm being all winey pants about 2 million NW.  Facepunch, double facepunch.  It's all good. 

Actually had to meditate about buying a new leaf blower a few days ago.   It was  $150 at Lowes $165 with tax, found it for $125 at Amazon with no tax or shipping.  WTF!  I'm a dang millionaire, hell technically a multimillionaire on the lowest rung.  I'm debating a leaf blower purchase.   You people have ruined my life.

I also agonize over purchases like that.  However, I'm convinced that this frugal behavior is what got many of us where we are. 

I see so many people these days 'living it up' with all the 'toys'.  These are people who I'll pretty much guarantee can't afford it ( or have misguided priorities ).  Back before the crash of '08-'09 I saw exactly the same behavior.  People never learn!   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on September 06, 2017, 10:00:08 AM

Absolutely its what got us to where we are.

I would have passed the "marshmellow test" and been asking if resisted even longer could I get extra marshmellows.. then sold the marshmellows to my friends for cash!

I like my pile of ever increasing marshmellows..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: markbike528CBX on September 06, 2017, 11:48:40 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on September 06, 2017, 07:12:12 AM

........I also agonize over purchases like that.  However, I'm convinced that this frugal behavior is what got many of us where we are. snip..... 

I don't think of it as being frugal.   I think of it as being more efficient at our retail therapy.   

We get so much more mileage/time over agonizing than the impulsive buyer does.  It took me over two weeks to by some shorts on ebay.  Impulse buyer would have gotten 30seconds on the buy, and another 30 seconds unwrapping the package.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 06, 2017, 01:46:58 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on September 06, 2017, 07:12:12 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 05, 2017, 09:22:08 PM

Don't mind me.  Still in my 40's and I'm being all winey pants about 2 million NW.  Facepunch, double facepunch.  It's all good. 

Actually had to meditate about buying a new leaf blower a few days ago.   It was  $150 at Lowes $165 with tax, found it for $125 at Amazon with no tax or shipping.  WTF!  I'm a dang millionaire, hell technically a multimillionaire on the lowest rung.  I'm debating a leaf blower purchase.   You people have ruined my life.

I also agonize over purchases like that.  However, I'm convinced that this frugal behavior is what got many of us where we are. 

I see so many people these days 'living it up' with all the 'toys'.  These are people who I'll pretty much guarantee can't afford it ( or have misguided priorities ).  Back before the crash of '08-'09 I saw exactly the same behavior.  People never learn!

Well, I know it's not Mustachian, but when I started this journey the whole idea was to delay gratification, but ultimately gratify myself a little.  Now that I'm so far beyond my wildest dreams, I am letting myself enjoy the 'stache a whole lot more.  I even bought one of those 'robo-vacs' during Primeday ($185).  My wife was beside herself when I announced it (she similarly questioned my mental state when I gave her an Apple laptop after years of being anti-Apple) and we use it every day to keep up with the dog and cat fur.

In the whole scheme of things, bringing a little extra joy and life to our household is worth what now amounts to pocket change.  With that said, the bigger issue is reigning in complexity and clutter.  I still evaluate purchases based on if they will 'carry their weight' in terms of taking up space and time in my life.  This one worked out well but we bought a 'fancy refrigerator' (Exflyboy take note) that has most certainly not panned out, maybe just because it was a lemon.  Should've just bought a simple one that did it's main job well though...

Sadly, I've had to stay out of the 'Has the Forum Gone Soft (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/weird-fourm-coversations-has-the-community-gone-soft/msg1664204/#msg1664204)' thread :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on September 08, 2017, 09:18:31 AM

I'd like some tips on how an apple laptop helps with dog and cat fur.  We have 2 semi-longhair (aka shedding) cats and a 10 year old powerbook.

Kidding, of course.  With the robovac, if it's the name brand, I've worked with the designers for years.  The thing they have not solved and you should be careful about is landmines from the dog.  The unit doesn't know how to handle it so it tends to pick some of it up and spread it all around the room, then come get some more and spread it around the room.

I have the same angst about buying stuff and have on many occasions looked at something and gone home to sleep on it, never to return to buy whatever it was.  Can't even think about how much I've saved vs just buying the thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on September 08, 2017, 09:29:59 AM

I've gone to the big box stores and sporting goods stores many times filling a cart with items.  I had a thousand dollars worth of reloading equipment mentally bought.  Pushed it round and round the giant Cabelas store.  Then put it back on the shelf.  Sometimes I don't even have to be in the store.  Academy sports just had an incredible deal on an AR15 rifle.  The best price I'd ever seen and it was 2nd Amendment tax free weekend here in Louisiana.   I carried that ad around for days.  Mentally I was in full possession of that rifle.  The ad expired, I tossed it in the trash and the cash, not the rifle is in my safe.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 08, 2017, 02:29:46 PM

Thanks for the tip CJ, my wife is home and only runs the vac while she's there, so we should be OK.  She quite enjoys Robbie's company as he roams around.

I spent years squeezing pennies so I'm not suddenly out blowing wads of cash, but I am loosening up.  Life is just getting too short for me to keep stressing out over some of these things (as well as stressing the marriage), especially since a little sharpening of the pencil around tax time, moving investments to lower fee versions of the same thing, nailing my FSA amounts, maintaining good health, etc. are the areas where the real money is being won and lost these days...  Even with that said, we have gone pretty far down the list of "priority purchases", so we are back in a mode of over 50% savings rate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: wannabe-stache on September 15, 2017, 08:34:01 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 05, 2017, 09:22:08 PM

Don't mind me.  Still in my 40's and I'm being all winey pants about 2 million NW.  Facepunch, double facepunch.  It's all good. 

Actually had to meditate about buying a new leaf blower a few days ago.   It was  $150 at Lowes $165 with tax, found it for $125 at Amazon with no tax or shipping.  WTF!  I'm a dang millionaire, hell technically a multimillionaire on the lowest rung.  I'm debating a leaf blower purchase.   You people have ruined my life.

This is exactly what I am dealing with.  We are in Miami and post-Irma (and post-telling my landscaper he wasn't needed anymore), i realized i really need a rake and a leaf blower.  so i went online to find used items.  i didn't find MMM until 4 months ago, otherwise i would have trotted over to home depot and bought brand new stuff without even thinking about it.

with that, i am jumping into this thread.  DW and i are 34 and 37 respectively and due to high incomes and, despite our below average savings rates, we have $1.6M invested and $2.3M with the home equity.  if i had found MMM 3 years ago i have no doubt we would have way more than $1.6M invested...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: savedough on September 15, 2017, 12:34:44 PM

Disclaimer: I don't belong in this thread at all.

EXCEPT - I feel that I am many of you 20 years ago, plugging along as an engineer barely making 6 figures, agonizing over purchases, banking my savings in tax-advantaged accounts and accumulating years for a pension.  We are thisclose to $1M net worth and I am 35 (for another two months) counting our home equity which isn't much since we live in a decently priced home.

This makes me happy to see that if my husband and I stay the course, we will make it. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: begood on September 15, 2017, 12:38:05 PM

I'm having a little mini freakout today, friends. I check our cash flow monthly but our investments only quarterly. Today's the day. Our investments (taxable + rollover IRA) are up $172K in 2017. One hundred and seventy-two THOUSAND dollars. In nine months.

The extended bull market is clearly driving that growth, and I am alllllll too aware that it can and will drop at some point, possibly soon! October seems like a common drop month. But is this how compounding works? The more $$, the faster the growth? Even though it suffers the vagaries of the market? If so, how stupid am I not to have understood that before?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: mm1970 on September 15, 2017, 02:31:48 PM

Quote from: Itchyfeet on August 02, 2017, 11:30:01 PM

Haha Bateaux.

I think the issue is that this thread is almost the antithesis of MMM. If one is frugal why would you need more than $2M.

In any case, accumulating more than $2M either requires a lot of time or a very high income.

I would presume that most people who have accumulated more than $2M are already in there 50s, so not the core audience of MMM. Only a small percentage of MMM posters are doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, CEOs etc who could earn there way to $2M at a young age.

A few will have got very lucky with their finances (like me), by taking risks when young that paid off over the years.

I know that there are plenty of wealthy MMM posters, but most are FIRED and don't give a hoot about any race towards even greater wealth.

Eh...We are engineers.  So, high income but not very high income.  Frugal.  HCOL area.
Not in our 50s yet.  Close.  Prob hit $2M a couple of years ago.
Two kids in elementary school.

I figured that we would prob be typical of people on this thread, no?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on September 15, 2017, 03:04:29 PM

Quote from: mm1970 on September 15, 2017, 02:31:48 PM

Quote from: Itchyfeet on August 02, 2017, 11:30:01 PM

Haha Bateaux.

I think the issue is that this thread is almost the antithesis of MMM. If one is frugal why would you need more than $2M.

In any case, accumulating more than $2M either requires a lot of time or a very high income.

I would presume that most people who have accumulated more than $2M are already in there 50s, so not the core audience of MMM. Only a small percentage of MMM posters are doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, CEOs etc who could earn there way to $2M at a young age.

A few will have got very lucky with their finances (like me), by taking risks when young that paid off over the years.

I know that there are plenty of wealthy MMM posters, but most are FIRED and don't give a hoot about any race towards even greater wealth.

Eh...We are engineers.  So, high income but not very high income.  Frugal.  HCOL area.
Not in our 50s yet.  Close.  Prob hit $2M a couple of years ago.
Two kids in elementary school.

I figured that we would prob be typical of people on this thread, no?

Yep...no doctors, etc...here either.   Not in our 50s yet either.  Two kids - one started college this year and one is in high school.
 
The definition of 'high income' can be very subjective..and vastly different depending on where you live ( HCOL vs LCOL, etc.. ).  Having kids ( and number of kids ) can also have a huge impact on the capability to save.

I think 'frugal but not minimalist, and being persistent' is the common thread here.   We have been saving slow and steady for 20+ years.  We don't buy many expensive 'toys' like boats, campers, expensive cars, cabins, and all that other crap.  It still boggles my mind to see how many people buy these 'toys' and clearly cannot afford them.  I think many people seem to think they are entitled to the 'stuff' and it often seems to get them into financial trouble.  I really love it when people complain about not having nearly enough to retire....while driving around fancy vehicles and such. 

BTW - I added 'cabins' above because quite a few people in my neck of the woods have them...and *always* seem to complain about how expensive they are to maintain.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: honeybbq on September 15, 2017, 04:39:39 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 03, 2017, 02:49:49 AM

Itchy feet I just read about your biking vacation.   Can't wait to do that.  Maybe we'll meet you guys in person out there soon.  My wife does her second Ironman next month.   All that training would be put to great use.  I'm 49 and have no plans to be working at 51.

I've done a couple halves. Some day I will do my full. Thank you  (From me) for supporting your wife! Spouses make all the difference in the tri-journey. :)

Quote from: Bateaux on September 05, 2017, 02:29:50 AM

I feel inadequate in this thread, since I have to throw in personal real estate to belong.  Glad you're all here, gives me a target to aim for.

I belong if I count my house equity.

I just turned 40. Medical fields. High earner that tries not to spend too much.

Waiting for that 3 to become  4.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on September 15, 2017, 10:06:25 PM

Quote from: mm1970 on September 15, 2017, 02:31:48 PM

Eh...We are engineers.  So, high income but not very high income.  Frugal.  HCOL area.
Not in our 50s yet.  Close.  Prob hit $2M a couple of years ago.
Two kids in elementary school.

I figured that we would prob be typical of people on this thread, no?

Yep, 40 & 45 here. Accountant and school teacher.

It took me about 20 years of working (DW 14 years)  to accumulate the first million, and only about 4 years for the 2nd.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on September 16, 2017, 07:41:43 PM

Quote from: honeybbq on September 15, 2017, 04:39:39 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 03, 2017, 02:49:49 AM

Itchy feet I just read about your biking vacation.   Can't wait to do that.  Maybe we'll meet you guys in person out there soon.  My wife does her second Ironman next month.   All that training would be put to great use.  I'm 49 and have no plans to be working at 51.

I've done a couple halves. Some day I will do my full. Thank you  (From me) for supporting your wife! Spouses make all the difference in the tri-journey. :)

Quote from: Bateaux on September 05, 2017, 02:29:50 AM

I feel inadequate in this thread, since I have to throw in personal real estate to belong.  Glad you're all here, gives me a target to aim for.

I belong if I count my house equity.

I just turned 40. Medical fields. High earner that tries not to spend too much.

Waiting for that 3 to become  4.....

I'm debating traing for a 1/2 Ironman next Spring.  My wife runs her 2nd full in Chattanooga next weekend.  Good luck with your events.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on September 16, 2017, 09:01:05 PM

I really need to find something to train for...... and people to train with. I am hopeless left to my own devices. Full of excuses

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on September 17, 2017, 08:14:38 AM

The 1/2 Ironman I'm considering is going to be held in Puerto Rico.  They are under the gun of Hurricane Maria which may hit them with 120 mph winds.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Secretly Saving on September 17, 2017, 09:15:37 AM

Quote from: mm1970 on September 15, 2017, 02:31:48 PM

Quote from: Itchyfeet on August 02, 2017, 11:30:01 PM

Haha Bateaux.

I think the issue is that this thread is almost the antithesis of MMM. If one is frugal why would you need more than $2M.

In any case, accumulating more than $2M either requires a lot of time or a very high income.

I would presume that most people who have accumulated more than $2M are already in there 50s, so not the core audience of MMM. Only a small percentage of MMM posters are doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, CEOs etc who could earn there way to $2M at a young age.

A few will have got very lucky with their finances (like me), by taking risks when young that paid off over the years.

I know that there are plenty of wealthy MMM posters, but most are FIRED and don't give a hoot about any race towards even greater wealth.

Eh...We are engineers.  So, high income but not very high income.  Frugal.  HCOL area.
Not in our 50s yet.  Close.  Prob hit $2M a couple of years ago.
Two kids in elementary school.

I figured that we would prob be typical of people on this thread, no?

Yep.
Engineer and teacher.
30s
Kids in elem school.
2m+ invested plus Real Estate

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: OthalaFehu on September 17, 2017, 10:03:11 AM

Just crested 2M in assets but have 440k in liabilities dragging me back down. I am 43, so will keep plugging away. Zero to 1 was way harder than 1 to 2. I keep data and charts on all aspects of my financial picture. It became so much of a hobby, I started sharing it all with the public. Viva the FIRE Revolution!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on September 17, 2017, 11:50:29 AM

If the bull keeps running (big IF) we will need a $3M to $4M thread soon..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: bigchrisb on September 17, 2017, 02:59:13 PM

Quote from: Secretly Saving on September 17, 2017, 09:15:37 AM

Quote from: mm1970 on September 15, 2017, 02:31:48 PM

Quote from: Itchyfeet on August 02, 2017, 11:30:01 PM

Haha Bateaux.

I think the issue is that this thread is almost the antithesis of MMM. If one is frugal why would you need more than $2M.

In any case, accumulating more than $2M either requires a lot of time or a very high income.

I would presume that most people who have accumulated more than $2M are already in there 50s, so not the core audience of MMM. Only a small percentage of MMM posters are doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, CEOs etc who could earn there way to $2M at a young age.

A few will have got very lucky with their finances (like me), by taking risks when young that paid off over the years.

I know that there are plenty of wealthy MMM posters, but most are FIRED and don't give a hoot about any race towards even greater wealth.

Eh...We are engineers.  So, high income but not very high income.  Frugal.  HCOL area.
Not in our 50s yet.  Close.  Prob hit $2M a couple of years ago.
Two kids in elementary school.

I figured that we would prob be typical of people on this thread, no?

Yep.
Engineer and teacher.
30s
Kids in elem school.
2m+ invested plus Real Estate

35 Engineer here. Self made through investment, both listed stocks and private businesses (invested in and grew my former employer before selling the company).  My wife is a public servant, but we have not combined finances.  If we had, we would be in the race to 4m. 

Mostly invested in stocks with a bit of leverage.  The first million took 7 years, the second 3.5, and the next 900k was under a year.  I always knew the theory that it would turn exponential, but I'm still a bit disbelieving of the reality.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on September 17, 2017, 08:29:20 PM

900K in 1 year. Wowsers!!!

2017 started off super strong for me, but has faded. I think my stash growth this year will be less than 2015 and 2016.

I too have got to here rolling the dice on a bit of leverage. I just figured worst case was that I pay back the loan over an extended period. Best case the inclvestment returns beat the cost of debt and I get a bit of a leg up. I got a bit lucky, although that is only a part of the story.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: honeybbq on September 18, 2017, 12:48:29 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 17, 2017, 08:14:38 AM

The 1/2 Ironman I'm considering is going to be held in Puerto Rico.  They are under the gun of Hurricane Maria which may hit them with 120 mph winds.

Why that particular half? It does sound fun to travel. My tri group is all doing Costa Rica this Nov. (it's a full though)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: honeybbq on September 18, 2017, 12:49:02 PM

Quote from: Itchyfeet on September 16, 2017, 09:01:05 PM

I really need to find something to train for...... and people to train with. I am hopeless left to my own devices. Full of excuses

Do you have a tri group?

I've found the best way to get my ass in gear is to sign up for a race! :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on September 19, 2017, 02:20:24 PM

Itchyfeet - HoneyBBQ we're clogging up the thread with all the nice things we can do once were into the 7 figures 😁   
Anyway, probably going to wait for the 2019 Puerto Rico Ironman unless Maria spares them somehow.  We could do another location.  Have fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on October 13, 2017, 10:17:32 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 05, 2017, 09:22:08 PM

Don't mind me.  Still in my 40's and I'm being all winey pants about 2 million NW.  Facepunch, double facepunch.  It's all good. 

Actually had to meditate about buying a new leaf blower a few days ago.   It was  $150 at Lowes $165 with tax, found it for $125 at Amazon with no tax or shipping.  WTF!  I'm a dang millionaire, hell technically a multimillionaire on the lowest rung.  I'm debating a leaf blower purchase.   You people have ruined my life.

Your post gave me a chuckle!   I hope you got the Amazon one.

Yes, we're among the older folks in the MMM family, but frugal living and careful planning is what got us here, right?  We're past the 3M mark, mostly with our multiple, nearly paid-for, rentals.   There are lots of us "oldies" who find kindred spirits here at MMM, even though we may have overbuilt the empire or worked for longer than you younger people intend to.   To be frugal and build a good future was the plan.  I'm proud of it, because it wasn't easy.  No silver spoons here...  My mom and I were laughing earlier today about the time when I was so poor that there was no toilet paper. 

My old joke is that you can either be rich or look rich, but it takes an awful lot of money to do both.  It's the Millionaire Next Door idea.   Now I'm the millionaire next door. Me... a multimillionaire!  Wow!   As I sit here in my thrift store outfit, sifting through rental apps on a rental that I'll be getting $500 more a month on since the last folks moved out.  The rent was low, and is still on the low end in our HCOL area.   That's a $6000 a year raise, this year and forever after,  and I didn't have to do a thing.  My plan is to snowball my way to paying off the last couple of mortgage loans on the rentals.  I should have the last 3 paid off within 3-4 years.  Life is fine!   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on October 14, 2017, 03:16:34 AM

There are many technical types here.  They keeps spread sheets on how many rolls of toilet paper and tubes of toothpaste they use a month.  They calculate Alpha, Beta and several other Greek letters representing strategies I haven't a clue about.  We spent less than we earned and invested the rest.  More of the JL Collins, "A simple Path to Wealth" approach.  Personally I love the Mint app.  It tells me what I'm worth almost instantly.  Even reminds me when I spend.  It just told me that I wrote a $4200 check.  Told me I don't usually spend that much, what's up?  Deposit for the new roof on the house Mint, it's all good.
Like many of us here, we'd already achieved a million or more in NW before finding the MMM blog.  I've learned so much since coming here however.   Those technical types, glad they share their knowledge.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Mr Griz on October 14, 2017, 05:42:42 AM

We’re about 6 months from FIRE and I’ve been simplifying our various investment and bank accounts. Each one tells a story and it’s been interesting to relive all the financial blunders we’ve made over the years. Despite all, the stache is well above $2M. It’s truly been as straightforward as JL Collins & Mr. MM describe it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: bigchrisb on October 17, 2017, 02:13:02 AM

Quote from: bigchrisb on September 17, 2017, 02:59:13 PM

35 Engineer here. Self made through investment, both listed stocks and private businesses (invested in and grew my former employer before selling the company).  My wife is a public servant, but we have not combined finances.  If we had, we would be in the race to 4m. 

Mostly invested in stocks with a bit of leverage.  The first million took 7 years, the second 3.5, and the next 900k was under a year.  I always knew the theory that it would turn exponential, but I'm still a bit disbelieving of the reality.

So, this month I started a trial fire with 2.9m. 10 days post job and the rallying markets have done enough to bump me over the $3m Mark.  Aside from staying the investment course, it was all down to what the market did. 

Being in a draw down phase for at least a couple of years I expect the accumulation pace to slow down now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on October 17, 2017, 07:17:54 AM

Quote from: bigchrisb on October 17, 2017, 02:13:02 AM

Quote from: bigchrisb on September 17, 2017, 02:59:13 PM

35 Engineer here. Self made through investment, both listed stocks and private businesses (invested in and grew my former employer before selling the company).  My wife is a public servant, but we have not combined finances.  If we had, we would be in the race to 4m. 

Mostly invested in stocks with a bit of leverage.  The first million took 7 years, the second 3.5, and the next 900k was under a year.  I always knew the theory that it would turn exponential, but I'm still a bit disbelieving of the reality.

So, this month I started a trial fire with 2.9m. 10 days post job and the rallying markets have done enough to bump me over the $3m Mark.  Aside from staying the investment course, it was all down to what the market did. 

Being in a draw down phase for at least a couple of years I expect the accumulation pace to slow down now.

Congratulations, bigchrisb!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on October 17, 2017, 09:57:50 AM

^^^^ Excellent^^^^^

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 17, 2017, 10:42:02 PM

Is there a race from $3M to $4M thread?  If not, maybe bigchrisb can start it! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on October 21, 2017, 09:46:07 PM

Maybe a thread title change: "Race from $2M and beyond..."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on October 22, 2017, 07:36:56 AM

Hehe.. this is starting to sound like one of those philosophical discussions.. Like "How much is too much?"...:)

Or even "how much is enough?"

My "number" is $5m.. or roughly double what I have now..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on October 22, 2017, 10:04:52 AM

I would never say $5 million USD is too much.

DW and I could certainly find a way to spend it.

But for us, the tipping point at which the extra spending power isn't worth the extra days spent in an office falls short of $5M.

About half of that number will do for us 2.5M USD= ~ 3.3M AUD. yep enough 👍 .

Maybe I will have some kind of encore career that will see us get us a little closer to $5M. who knows.

(I am talking today's $ above. I am sure one day my stash will be $5million, but it will be worth half as much as $5m today.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: mjr on October 22, 2017, 05:13:51 PM

Ticked over $2m ex-PPOR today.  I think my race has been run, I don't see how I can possibly stay working until the $3m mark, but at least I can join this race in a casual saunter.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: concealed stache on October 22, 2017, 07:28:18 PM

Quote from: mjr on October 22, 2017, 05:13:51 PM

Ticked over $2m ex-PPOR today.  I think my race has been run, I don't see how I can possibly stay working until the $3m mark, but at least I can join this race in a casual saunter.

I find myself in the same boat - although I don't run complete numbers during the month, it's quite clear that I've rolled over into 2.x territory this month - of course that could all change by month end. Given that I've handed in my notice I expect to be riding the local train for the next gains instead of the express it's been of late.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on October 22, 2017, 09:28:43 PM

Quote from: mjr on October 22, 2017, 05:13:51 PM

Ticked over $2m ex-PPOR today.  I think my race has been run, I don't see how I can possibly stay working until the $3m mark, but at least I can join this race in a casual saunter.

The $2.5m I am talking about above is really $1.8M plus PPOR.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on October 22, 2017, 09:47:30 PM

Quote from: Itchyfeet on October 22, 2017, 09:28:43 PM

Quote from: mjr on October 22, 2017, 05:13:51 PM

Ticked over $2m ex-PPOR today.  I think my race has been run, I don't see how I can possibly stay working until the $3m mark, but at least I can join this race in a casual saunter.

The $2.5m I am talking about above is really $1.8M plus PPOR.

Principal Place of Residence? Possible Place of Refuge? Perinatal Periods of Risk?

Are your numbers in USD or AUS?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: mjr on October 23, 2017, 12:18:03 AM

Aussie dollars, of course.  We can't spend US dollars here :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on October 23, 2017, 07:55:29 AM

Haha. I'll happily spend some more USD in your part of the world if ever I get the chance to return. But seriously, what the hell is PPOR?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 23, 2017, 08:00:10 AM

Principal Place of Residence?  Potential Prodigious Onset of Revenue? 

And 2M AUS is 'merely' 1.56M USD, you've not even made it to the starting line :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on October 23, 2017, 12:27:51 PM

Yes, PPOR is an Australian taxation acronym for the house you live in, and get a capital gains tax exemption for. Principal Place of Residence. Should just call it home like everyone else I suppose.

I didn't join this thread till I passed $2M USD, which occurred several months back when the USD dropped v the AUD.

With the USD slowly regaining ground there is a small risk I could drop below $2M USD once more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: wannabe-stache on October 31, 2017, 02:35:49 PM

Quote from: Itchyfeet on October 22, 2017, 09:28:43 PM

Quote from: mjr on October 22, 2017, 05:13:51 PM

Ticked over $2m ex-PPOR today.  I think my race has been run, I don't see how I can possibly stay working until the $3m mark, but at least I can join this race in a casual saunter.

The $2.5m I am talking about above is really $1.8M plus PPOR.

Same here. $2.65M with home equity. so close...

edited to add that i am sitting in my office wearing loafers i bought at a thrift store, ate lunch at my desk and took the train to work today. what a nice day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 31, 2017, 11:22:33 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on October 31, 2017, 02:35:49 PM

Quote from: Itchyfeet on October 22, 2017, 09:28:43 PM

Quote from: mjr on October 22, 2017, 05:13:51 PM

Ticked over $2m ex-PPOR today.  I think my race has been run, I don't see how I can possibly stay working until the $3m mark, but at least I can join this race in a casual saunter.

The $2.5m I am talking about above is really $1.8M plus PPOR.

Same here. $2.65M with home equity. so close...

edited to add that i am sitting in my office wearing loafers i bought at a thrift store, ate lunch at my desk and took the train to work today. what a nice day.

Not trying to make waves, but since I'm doing well on NW already, just being at work seems to give me the liberty to buy a fresh $5 salad most days (when I have to buy for myself - most times I have lunch meetings) and splurge a little on good shoes (https://www.olukai.com/mens/shoes.html). 

To each their own, but none of these things seems to move the needle much for me either way, other than knowing I am eating healthier and taking good care of my gait.  Low stress job, so I'm OK with working as long as they'll have me.  And it looks like I'll get some plum international travel in 2018...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: wannabe-stache on November 01, 2017, 07:16:10 AM

[/quote]

Same here. $2.65M with home equity. so close...

edited to add that i am sitting in my office wearing loafers i bought at a thrift store, ate lunch at my desk and took the train to work today. what a nice day.
[/quote]

Not trying to make waves, but since I'm doing well on NW already, just being at work seems to give me the liberty to buy a fresh $5 salad most days (when I have to buy for myself - most times I have lunch meetings) and splurge a little on good shoes (https://www.olukai.com/mens/shoes.html). 

To each their own, but none of these things seems to move the needle much for me either way, other than knowing I am eating healthier and taking good care of my gait.  Low stress job, so I'm OK with working as long as they'll have me.  And it looks like I'll get some plum international travel in 2018...
[/quote]

No worries, like you i tend not to begrudge others' choices. i buy a diet coke every day for lunch and my wife and i still occasionally treat ourselves to good wine from our napa valley wineries.  that's the refreshing part of this particular thread, it's less dogmatic than most.

what MMM and others have opened my eyes to was seeing value in purchases. i didn't really value my BMW, or cable TV, or my landscaper, so i cut them out. but you can take my pinot or my diet coke from my cold, dead hands.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on November 01, 2017, 10:37:41 AM

Ah, you guys should loosen up and live a little!  (I say, then realize I'm wearing sneakers that one of my kids got sick of and pants inherited from my dad)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on November 01, 2017, 11:48:15 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on October 31, 2017, 02:35:49 PM

Quote from: Itchyfeet on October 22, 2017, 09:28:43 PM

Quote from: mjr on October 22, 2017, 05:13:51 PM

Ticked over $2m ex-PPOR today.  I think my race has been run, I don't see how I can possibly stay working until the $3m mark, but at least I can join this race in a casual saunter.

The $2.5m I am talking about above is really $1.8M plus PPOR.

Same here. $2.65M with home equity. so close...

edited to add that i am sitting in my office wearing loafers i bought at a thrift store, ate lunch at my desk and took the train to work today. what a nice day.

HeHe, just wait until you're FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: honeyfill on November 01, 2017, 10:06:46 PM

Sitting at 2.35M here. 2.5 with home equity.  We are 60/58 and retiring some time in the next 10 months so its highly unlikely we reach 3m, but its fun to track it and to watch others go for the big 3.0. We 've hit our number and built u a couple of years of cash reserves so we really don't need any more.  Dropped savings to just hit the max match on the 401k.  Now just paying down some debt, and building up a cash reserve to pay for a kitchen remodel and a semi-luxury retirement celebration vacation in France. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on November 01, 2017, 11:05:09 PM

Very nice..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on November 02, 2017, 12:07:50 AM

Quote from: honeyfill on November 01, 2017, 10:06:46 PM

Sitting at 2.35M here. 2.5 with home equity.  We are 60/58 and retiring some time in the next 10 months so its highly unlikely we reach 3m, but its fun to track it and to watch others go for the big 3.0. We 've hit our number and built u a couple of years of cash reserves so we really don't need any more.  Dropped savings to just hit the max match on the 401k.  Now just paying down some debt, and building up a cash reserve to pay for a kitchen remodel and a semi-luxury retirement celebration vacation in France.

Okay, I admit it, I am confused. You have only 150k in home equity and you're paying down "some debt". You have 2.5M, but you're waiting up to ten more months to retire? Something's  missing here. More info please?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on November 02, 2017, 01:02:34 AM

I assumed they were still paying off the mortgage.. But the $2.35M was the net value of cash plus investments.. yes?

As to the 10 months.. Clearly love their jobs way more than I did..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on November 02, 2017, 06:46:42 AM

Seems reasonable to me.  60/58, kids are likely out of the house.  Sounds like a mortgage is still in place but perhaps they're part of the "never pay your mortgage off" crowd (nothing wrong with that).  At $2.35M, they could be in a place where they realize that they are FI but don't want to stop working yet for whatever reason.  That's fine too. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: honeyfill on November 03, 2017, 04:54:51 PM

Seems like there are some questions out there about our plans, so I thought I would give some more details.  I am not a true mustachian , I only discovered the site a few months ago. We had built up a nice nest egg of 1.7M in 2016 by maxing out the 401k since the first day they were offered.  But while we never wasted money , we spent a lot.  Lots of credit card debt , paid for daughter’s tuition, lots of nice things. So we had no money in taxable accounts, and I did not want to take money out of the 401ks. 
So we always thought retirement was sometime in the future and didn’t really plan for it. Plus I am an engineer and I do like my job.
Then I got an inheritance, 500k. It took a few months to for everything to really settle in mentally but I realized maybe I could retire. 
I figured the first thing to do was to get my debt in order.  Refinanced the house at 3.5% 270K loan, 150k equity on a 420k house.  Put all the credit cards on 0% interest.  Then started to blast through the debt.  I decided to start pulling 7 k a month out of our investments. Paid off our 2nd mortgage , paid off a ton of student debt, paid off lots of credit cards.  So why wait 10 more months?  Partly one more year, partly more debt.  21k on wife’s car 2.99%.  7 k on credit cards 0% , 7 k left on daughters student debt 4%, That’s 5 months.  Then we want to remodel the kitchen and take a luxury retirement celebration vacation. I figure that is 35k and 5 months more.  The final complications are that my in-laws have moved in with us and my daughter has health problems , which have prevented her from working since the summer.  Fortunately all their health issues seem to have stabilized. Our daughter is back on her feet and sending out resume’s.  My inlaws have set up a support system and our not really a financial drain. They pay all the medical and care givers , we just kick in a place to live, food and shelter.  The 10 months will give us a chance to mentally prepare, get our spending down to something more mustache like and to figure out how we handle health care between now and medicare.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 05, 2017, 07:13:12 AM

With my house I'm 2.9 and some change maybe could also get a few more dollars for the house. W/O house 2.6 and some change but its been kinda stagnant for me the last 6 months +/- as I have spent more than the budget because of the market rise. Remodeling etc.. things i know I would need to do down the line so I have taken out more than my normal withdrawal rate would be.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on November 11, 2017, 11:18:36 AM

Thanks for filling in some of the blanks, honeyfill. (Hee!)

Due to a bout of insomnia last night, I read through some of the lower goal races. I noticed a lot of people post updates monthly. Their passion and zeal is fun to see/remember.

This group seems to be a lot more relaxed, which is kind of a reward unto itself. Up to a certain point, it's a race. After that, it's a coast.

In news of the bizarre, a house in the neighborhood, but not nearly as new or as nice as ours, sold for $1.26M on 10/24/17. Zillow now says it's worth  $1,277,205, for an increase of $59,965 in 18 days!! They still think ours is "only" worth  $1.34M. Yawn. Whatever.*

I think I'll go make some scratch waffles with fresh berries for breakfast/brunch in my garage sale purchased waffle iron, then head over to my favorite thrift store. I just discovered that all clothing is half off on Saturdays. Whoop!

*I just found this on Zillow. "When it comes to unique homes (e.g., luxury mansions, unusual designs) we are less accurate in our Zestimates." No kidding.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on November 11, 2017, 11:33:24 AM

Quote from: Dicey on November 11, 2017, 11:18:36 AM

Thanks for filling in some of the blanks, honeyfill. (Hee!)

Due to a bout of insomnia last night, I read through some of the lower goal races. I noticed a lot of people post updates monthly. Their passion and zeal is fun to see/remember.

This group seems to be a lot more relaxed, which is kind of a reward unto itself. Up to a certain point, it's a race. After that, it's a coast.

I am not particularly wanting to coast to my number and to FIRE. But, with my NW now above $2M, I can't really drive it up fast by saving more. The growth of the stash these days is more reliant on returns than my savings efforts. I just have to wait for time to do its magic, and I will be where I want to be. In any case, I do update my progress on a monthly basis on the 2019 thread.

I should hit $3M Aussie pesos by the end of 2018, but that is only 2.3M USD.... def not racing to $3M USD.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on November 11, 2017, 11:45:06 AM

Maybe you're not experiencing as much of a bull market as the US is? Also, as you approach the equivalent of $2-3M USD, perhaps you'll feel a little differently. However, "just...wait[ing] for time to do its magic" kinda sounds like we're talking about the same thing.

I admit, I don't follow the cohort threads too closely, because I hit FIRE "too early"* Such a FWP!

*ETA: To clarify, there's no such thing as retiring too early. The cohorts didn't begin until I was out the corporate door, is what I meant. If someone wants to start one for 2012 retroactively,  I'll play along. Maybe ;-)

And you refrigerator people: get over it! The newer models are so much more energy efficient, they will pay for themselves in time. As long as you didn't buy some crazy-ass thing with Bluetooth, go optimize somewhere else, (Frank) and stop looking at that new shiny thing in your kitchen. No time for guilt here!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on November 13, 2017, 11:42:53 AM

Stop talking about my fridge.. I already feel guilty sitting here looking at it..:)

It is nice not to have to repack the frigging freezer everytime we go shopping though!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on November 13, 2017, 10:00:54 PM

I have a new fancy pants fridge.  We got by on an avocado shade one till it died, then a teeny full sized one that fit in our teeny house and came with us when we moved.  There was about an extra foot of space that it didn't fill up in the kitchen fridge cubby.  It was white and everything else in the kitchen was black.  I know it shouldn't matter, but it did look stupid.  We had it about 6 years.    Now we splurged (after bargain hunting at Home Depot, on sale, using our 5% off cards,).  The fridge is great.  The French doors allow you to easily see everything in there, and the drawer is a great invention and leaves the cold air in the main part undisturbed.  It even makes our ice.  Face punch, right?  When I use the "cost per use" analysis, it was a good purchase.  We do use it everyday, after all... 

Now, back to my regularly scheduled thrift store shopping.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Secretly Saving on November 14, 2017, 06:27:31 AM

We just got a new one too.  Our old one was rusting through the front of it, but it was working so why bother changing something that still served it's purpose?  New fridge is fancy pants -- husband loves all the extra ice.  I kinda miss the old one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on November 14, 2017, 10:07:24 AM

We rent a place that came with a fridge, dishwasher, washing machine etc, so no white goods shopping for us these days.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: markbike528CBX on November 14, 2017, 02:55:03 PM

...big snip here, I find it is more obvious to markbike528 the reader to snip than to bold key points.......

Quote from: bigchrisb on October 17, 2017, 02:13:02 AM

So, this month I started a trial fire with 2.9m. 10 days post job and the rallying markets have done enough to bump me over the $3m Mark.   .... snip....

On one hand it is nice to see someone who's finished this race taking a "trial" FIRE, as I'm in the same place on being tentative FIREing.
But on the other hand, good golly bigcrhisb.. you should have been done long ago.     

I can imagine people on this board wondering the same thing about me, even though I've just started this race, many others at lower NW have FIREd long ago.

edited to clarify what was a quote at what was my comment.
I was looking for another post of mine and came across this one.   Markbike528CBX  24 July 2020

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on November 14, 2017, 07:27:02 PM

Hey everybody.  Looks like a lot of ya have migrated here from the 1 to 2.  I've been having some fun the last few weeks and even spending some money.  I went on a fishing trip with some friends, we even caught some.   Flew down to Mexico with the wife and another couple.  We did a lot of cool stuff.  Had a new roof put on the house.  We even sent some cash off for storm victims.  After all that, there's more in the bank than before.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on November 14, 2017, 08:32:24 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 14, 2017, 07:27:02 PM

Hey everybody.  Looks like a lot of ya have migrated here from the 1 to 2.  I've been having some fun the last few weeks and even spending some money.  I went on a fishing trip with some friends, we even caught some.   Flew down to Mexico with the wife and another couple.  We did a lot of cool stuff.  Had a new roof put on the house.  We even sent some cash off for storm victims.  After all that, there's more in the bank than before.

Great job.. And there was me "scared" to look at my accounts after the massive pullback we have just had..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on November 14, 2017, 09:32:58 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on November 14, 2017, 02:55:03 PM

Quote from: bigchrisb on October 17, 2017, 02:13:02 AM

...big snip here, I find it is more obvious to markbike528 the reader to snip than to bold key points.......

So, this month I started a trial fire with 2.9m. 10 days post job and the rallying markets have done enough to bump me over the $3m Mark.   .... snip....

On one hand it is nice to see someone who's finished this race taking a "trial" FIRE, as I'm in the same place on being tentative FIREing.
But on the other hand, good golly bigcrhisb.. you should have been done long ago.     

I can imagine people on this board wondering the same thing about me, even though I've just started this race, many others at lower NW have FIREd long ago.

Personal finance is indeed extremely personal.

There can be no fixed rule about what is the right amount as there are so many variables that are different for each person.

Many on these boards say “if I had more money I wouldn’t know what to do with it”. I don’t have this problem. My imagination is pretty active.

So for me deciding what is “enough” is a constant weighing up of what I am sacrificing by being a wage slave versus what I’d be sacrificing by FIREing today. I certainly have enough stash to FIRE, but I am still not quite at my personal tipping point where I am willing to lock myself into the lifestyle that my stash would finance, when a couple of years of extra work will provide a few extra options which seem worth working for today. That being said, if I lost my job I am not sure I’d bother looking for a replacement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on November 15, 2017, 03:53:18 AM

/\

We're pretty much living now at a level below what our stach could support.  Nobody says you have to live on less in retirement than in working years.  We've missed out on a lot during our working years.  We we're saving tens of thousands of dollars and working overtime while others were out spending money cruising the seas, buying new cars and fancy houses.  We're still working a few more years.  Now back of the napkin math says we're gaining about 10k a year in potential spending at 4% withdrawl every year we work.  The current number we could spend if FIRED is about 75k at 4%.  2018 85k, 2019 95k, 2020 105k  These are very rough and conservative numbers but you see the progression.   The 1 million stash level is where you can be frugal and make it, the 2 million stash level is a tipping point. We have the choice to live at the 1 million stash level and have the other million working for us.  We can have cheap years and bonus years.  Most likely our stash will grow into legacy funds after reaching 2 million, certainly once the 3 million level is reached.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on November 15, 2017, 07:43:03 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 15, 2017, 03:53:18 AM

/\

We're pretty much living now at a level below what our stach could support.  Nobody says you have to live on less in retirement than in working years.  We've missed out on a lot during our working years.  We we're saving tens of thousands of dollars and working overtime while others were out spending money cruising the seas, buying new cars and fancy houses.  We're still working a few more years.  Now back of the napkin math says we're gaining about 10k a year in potential spending at 4% withdrawl every year we work.  The current number we could spend if FIRED is about 75k at 4%.  2018 85k, 2019 95k, 2020 105k  These are very rough and conservative numbers but you see the progression.   The 1 million stash level is where you can be frugal and make it, the 2 million stash level is a tipping point. We have the choice to live at the 1 million stash level and have the other million working for us.  We can have cheap years and bonus years.  Most likely our stash will grow into legacy funds after reaching 2 million, certainly once the 3 million level is reached.

Yep, I agree that the 2M point ( in investable assets ) is a tipping point.  However, what keeps us up at night is the ongoing healthcare debacle.  We have a family member with significant chronic health issues and feel that we need to save an additional 'significant amount' just to cover the potential uncertainty of future healthcare.   

I think healthcare is one of the major influencing factors that keeps people from FIREing...even with a large stashe.  I wish we could at least get some stability..but not gonna happen in this political environment. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: begood on November 15, 2017, 07:51:10 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on November 15, 2017, 07:43:03 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 15, 2017, 03:53:18 AM

/\

We're pretty much living now at a level below what our stach could support.  Nobody says you have to live on less in retirement than in working years.  We've missed out on a lot during our working years.  We we're saving tens of thousands of dollars and working overtime while others were out spending money cruising the seas, buying new cars and fancy houses.  We're still working a few more years.  Now back of the napkin math says we're gaining about 10k a year in potential spending at 4% withdrawl every year we work.  The current number we could spend if FIRED is about 75k at 4%.  2018 85k, 2019 95k, 2020 105k  These are very rough and conservative numbers but you see the progression.   The 1 million stash level is where you can be frugal and make it, the 2 million stash level is a tipping point. We have the choice to live at the 1 million stash level and have the other million working for us.  We can have cheap years and bonus years.  Most likely our stash will grow into legacy funds after reaching 2 million, certainly once the 3 million level is reached.

Yep, I agree that the 2M point ( in investable assets ) is a tipping point.  However, what keeps us up at night is the ongoing healthcare debacle.  We have a family member with significant chronic health issues and feel that we need to save an additional 'significant amount' just to cover the potential uncertainty of future healthcare.   

I think healthcare is one of the major influencing factors that keeps people from FIREing...even with a large stashe.  I wish we could at least get some stability..but not gonna happen in this political environment.

Me too. My mister and I both have pre-existing conditions based on the most recent list that circulated. Without employer-supported insurance or some ACA-like insurance that's required to cover us, we could easily bankrupt ourselves with medical costs. To me, it's the splash of cold water on the face of FIRE. I don't Debbie Downer here because it's such a place of beautiful optimism, but I just can't get beyond the thought: "What if I can't get health care?"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on November 15, 2017, 11:13:28 AM

Same here.  Any FIRE date prior to mid 2019 is not an option.  We have a cancer survivor son on my employer insurance who will be 26 in 2019.  Beyond that, FIRE may still be a dream if we must help with his healthcare costs.  Without the ACA we'd be in big trouble.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: bigchrisb on November 15, 2017, 03:08:34 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on November 15, 2017, 07:43:03 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 15, 2017, 03:53:18 AM

/\

We're pretty much living now at a level below what our stach could support.  Nobody says you have to live on less in retirement than in working years.  We've missed out on a lot during our working years.  We we're saving tens of thousands of dollars and working overtime while others were out spending money cruising the seas, buying new cars and fancy houses.  We're still working a few more years.  Now back of the napkin math says we're gaining about 10k a year in potential spending at 4% withdrawl every year we work.  The current number we could spend if FIRED is about 75k at 4%.  2018 85k, 2019 95k, 2020 105k  These are very rough and conservative numbers but you see the progression.   The 1 million stash level is where you can be frugal and make it, the 2 million stash level is a tipping point. We have the choice to live at the 1 million stash level and have the other million working for us.  We can have cheap years and bonus years.  Most likely our stash will grow into legacy funds after reaching 2 million, certainly once the 3 million level is reached.

Yep, I agree that the 2M point ( in investable assets ) is a tipping point.  However, what keeps us up at night is the ongoing healthcare debacle.  We have a family member with significant chronic health issues and feel that we need to save an additional 'significant amount' just to cover the potential uncertainty of future healthcare.   

I think healthcare is one of the major influencing factors that keeps people from FIREing...even with a large stashe.  I wish we could at least get some stability..but not gonna happen in this political environment.

Agree 100% with healthcare being an issue.  I have a degenerative, progressive condition which will have increasing impacts over life - hence the extra padding.  I'm lucky to live in a country with good public healthcare (Australia) - its not quite universal, but good enough for intents and purposes.  However, beyond the direct healthcare costs, having something that will probably prevent you from going back to work in a failure scenario in ~20 years time is a strong incentive to pad the stash a bit more,  both to reduce failure probability, and to allow for an increased spending on disability care if needed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: bigchrisb on November 15, 2017, 03:31:40 PM

Quote from: Itchyfeet on November 14, 2017, 09:32:58 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on November 14, 2017, 02:55:03 PM

Quote from: bigchrisb on October 17, 2017, 02:13:02 AM

...big snip here, I find it is more obvious to markbike528 the reader to snip than to bold key points.......

So, this month I started a trial fire with 2.9m. 10 days post job and the rallying markets have done enough to bump me over the $3m Mark.   .... snip....

On one hand it is nice to see someone who's finished this race taking a "trial" FIRE, as I'm in the same place on being tentative FIREing.
But on the other hand, good golly bigcrhisb.. you should have been done long ago.     

I can imagine people on this board wondering the same thing about me, even though I've just started this race, many others at lower NW have FIREd long ago.

Personal finance is indeed extremely personal.

There can be no fixed rule about what is the right amount as there are so many variables that are different for each person.

Many on these boards say “if I had more money I wouldn’t know what to do with it”. I don’t have this problem. My imagination is pretty active.

So for me deciding what is “enough” is a constant weighing up of what I am sacrificing by being a wage slave versus what I’d be sacrificing by FIREing today. I certainly have enough stash to FIRE, but I am still not quite at my personal tipping point where I am willing to lock myself into the lifestyle that my stash would finance, when a couple of years of extra work will provide a few extra options which seem worth working for today. That being said, if I lost my job I am not sure I’d bother looking for a replacement.

Indeed it is personal - I'd been more focused on the FI (which I hit a while ago), than the RE.  Multiple reasons for me, including:
- Health risks.  See one post up.
- Rate of change.  The snowballing had gotten to the point where "one more year" was adding multiple years of expenses, or increasing the potential draw down by $10k+ per year.
- A bit of "killing time". In the lead up my wife was pregnant with our first baby, so limited adventure potential in the last 3 months of the pregnancy.  Timing wise, we are going on a deployment for her work once the baby is 6 months, so it made for a natural exit point, where if it didn't work out, I could resume a career on return with a decent excuse for the gap in the CV.

I think that these forums tend to draw in personalities that like to optimise.  I spent a lot of time optimising FI, but cared less about optimising the RE.  Others have a bigger focus on optimising the RE part, and hence wonder what people like me are thinking!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Koogie on November 15, 2017, 05:04:09 PM

Quote from: bigchrisb on November 15, 2017, 03:08:34 PM

I have a degenerative, progressive condition which will have increasing impacts over life - hence the extra padding.  I'm lucky to live in a country with good public healthcare (Australia) - its not quite universal, but good enough for intents and purposes.  However, beyond the direct healthcare costs, having something that will probably prevent you from going back to work in a failure scenario in ~20 years time is a strong incentive to pad the stash a bit more,  both to reduce failure probability, and to allow for an increased spending on disability care if needed.

Ditto (but in Canada).  DW has a degenerative neurological condition.  We have a large enough stash to accommodate our anticipated spending needs but not enough to feel perfectly safe from being ruined by future palliative care costs.   Hence, OMY syndrome.     

I have tried to make it easier on myself though by going semi-RE.   Quality of life NOW matters as well.    We aren't touching the stash as yet so it continues to feed itself and grow "organically"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 21, 2017, 09:16:10 AM

You can almost have a mindset of retirement once you're financially independent.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on November 27, 2017, 10:35:11 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 21, 2017, 09:16:10 AM

You can almost have a mindset of retirement once you're financially independent.

This is a great point!  Once you're FI, more things become optional.  Not just working, but purchases, investments, lifestyle, staching.  I've been a stay at home mom for years, but still worked- as a realtor for the last 8-10 years.  I can choose my clients and workload, or farm it out for a referral fee.  I manage our rentals and investments.   It doesn't feel like a real job, since I can choose to work, or not.  The real estate license was most valuable as a tool for reducing purchase costs on our rental investments, and has saved us a bundle.    I can carry on like this for another couple of decades.  MMM encourages frugality by learning to fix things (hubs does that for us), while I push the paper and plan the strategy.   Someday, at true retirement, if we keep the investment properties, maybe I'll farm out the rental management to a management company, but, in the mean time, I'm earning my keep.   It's not structured enough to feel like I have to RE to escape it.  We are Mustachians in the sense that we are completely hands on in all areas.  As someone who's always been a self employed entrepreneur and business owner,  the line between working, retirement and semi-retirement is not so clear cut.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on November 28, 2017, 08:31:31 AM

Quote from: Jill P on November 27, 2017, 10:35:11 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 21, 2017, 09:16:10 AM

You can almost have a mindset of retirement once you're financially independent.

This is a great point!  Once you're FI, more things become optional.  Not just working, but purchases, investments, lifestyle, staching.  I've been a stay at home mom for years, but still worked- as a realtor for the last 8-10 years.  I can choose my clients and workload, or farm it out for a referral fee.  I manage our rentals and investments.   It doesn't feel like a real job, since I can choose to work, or not.  The real estate license was most valuable as a tool for reducing purchase costs on our rental investments, and has saved us a bundle.    I can carry on like this for another couple of decades.  MMM encourages frugality by learning to fix things (hubs does that for us), while I push the paper and plan the strategy.   Someday, at true retirement, if we keep the investment properties, maybe I'll farm out the rental management to a management company, but, in the mean time, I'm earning my keep.   It's not structured enough to feel like I have to RE to escape it.  We are Mustachians in the sense that we are completely hands on in all areas.  As someone who's always been a self employed entrepreneur and business owner,  the line between working, retirement and semi-retirement is not so clear cut.

My 'problem' is that we are..or nearly are...financially independent.   However, this has really affected my work motivation lately.  Therefore, I may be 'retired' before I know it!   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on November 28, 2017, 08:58:49 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on November 28, 2017, 08:31:31 AM

My 'problem' is that we are..or nearly are...financially independent.   However, this has really affected my work motivation lately.  Therefore, I may be 'retired' before I know it!

That's the very definition of an MPP!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: GettingClose on November 28, 2017, 12:12:48 PM

We just hit $3M today! There is absolutely no one IRL with whom this can be shared - so it feels great to post here!

The plan is for my spouse to retire by 09/01/2018 and then for me to work for another year to see how it goes. Yes, we're really cautious.  I tracked all of our spending last year, and it was about $65k, but health insurance alone would cost $1750/month for both of us (currently paid through work).   So that's another $21k, and then who knows how much more we'll spend in retireiment ...  My spouse, although careful with money, hates spending restrictions.

We're trying to get permanent residency status for Canada, which adds another layer of uncertainty.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on November 28, 2017, 01:12:13 PM

Nice job and "happy graduation".  Are you backing down your AA at this point, since "you've won the game"?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: GettingClose on November 28, 2017, 01:25:48 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on November 28, 2017, 01:12:13 PM

Nice job and "happy graduation".  Are you backing down your AA at this point, since "you've won the game"?

Thank you!  Our AA was backed down a couple of years ago when we hit $2.5M; a good deal more conservative than I'd like.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on November 28, 2017, 07:30:53 PM

Fantastic.. Does that include equity in your house, pensions etc?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on November 28, 2017, 09:21:15 PM

Job well done Gettingclose.  That cost of healthcare scares the crap out of me.  I'd hoped 500k invested could be enough to cover health costs at a 4% withdrawal rate.   Maybe I'll need to up that amount.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: GettingClose on November 29, 2017, 10:16:44 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 28, 2017, 07:30:53 PM

Fantastic.. Does that include equity in your house, pensions etc?

No pensions, but it does include the house.  This, however, is about to be sold (offer in hand, fingers crossed) - and we'll probably clear $50-100k above the number I've been using when calculating net worth.  The plan is to move to Canada and rent until we figure out "what's next".  The house is hugely expensive to run/insure/maintain/pay property tax on, so changes in housing costs are more unknowns coming up.  It's possible that renting a modest, energy-efficient home could cost less than owning a mortgage-free, 4800-sq-ft monstrosity with huge windows everywhere and an indoor pool ...  A lot of change and discovery ahead. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on November 29, 2017, 10:36:30 AM

Quote from: GettingClose on November 29, 2017, 10:16:44 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 28, 2017, 07:30:53 PM

Fantastic.. Does that include equity in your house, pensions etc?

No pensions, but it does include the house.  This, however, is about to be sold (offer in hand, fingers crossed) - and we'll probably clear $50-100k above the number I've been using when calculating net worth.  The plan is to move to Canada and rent until we figure out "what's next".  The house is hugely expensive to run/insure/maintain/pay property tax on, so changes in housing costs are more unknowns coming up.  It's possible that renting a modest, energy-efficient home could cost less than owning a mortgage-free, 4800-sq-ft monstrosity with huge windows everywhere and an indoor pool ...  A lot of change and discovery ahead.

Sounds exciting! Can't wait to hear more as your new life unfolds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: BTDretire on November 29, 2017, 01:52:21 PM

Quote from: begood on May 08, 2017, 05:23:11 AM

Quote from: Dicey on May 07, 2017, 11:57:14 PM

One word, itchyfeet: philanthropy.

PTF. If I include the value of DH's defined benefit pension, we're there. I'm not counting our paid-for 1.3M home or the equity in our (lightly mortgaged) SFH rental properties. We're not racing anymore though, just cruising along, enjoying life, and the scenery, and smelling the roses.

Dicey, if you don't mind my asking, how do you assign a value to your husband's defined benefit pension? My husband should get about $27K/year (flat,non-COLA'd,

 I don't want to through a monkeywrench in here, but I went searching for a calculator that would give me the buying power of $27k with 13 years inflation at 3%. After 3 different searches I didn't find it!
 I put $27,000 in Excel and subtracted 3%,  13 times and got $18,172.
At 4% I got $15,881. At 5%, 1/2 of your buying power is gone, ($13,860)
  While I was at it, I ran the proverbial $40,000 of income for an MMM after 13 years @ 3%.
I get $58,741 or $1,469,000  required nestegg.
  It will be fine if someone checks my numbers, my logic doesn't always compute.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 29, 2017, 05:38:53 PM

It's all lifestyles of the rich and famous on this thread.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: AdrianC on November 30, 2017, 09:04:51 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 28, 2017, 09:21:15 PM

That cost of healthcare [$1750/mo] scares the crap out of me.  I'd hoped 500k invested could be enough to cover health costs at a 4% withdrawal rate.   Maybe I'll need to up that amount.

Right now, as long as you keep your income down you'll qualify for a subsidy. I haven't managed it yet, but next year I'm projecting a subsidy of $1000/mo on a Bronze policy costing $1320/mo. That's pretty nice.

For 2019 who knows? My FIRE plan includes for healthcare costs rising at 13% per year and spending our deductible each year. I thought that was reasonable...until this years 80% increase in premiums if we stayed Silver with no subsidy.

Race to $5M?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on November 30, 2017, 09:13:52 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 29, 2017, 05:38:53 PM

It's all lifestyles of the rich and famous frugal on this thread.

FTFY

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on November 30, 2017, 11:27:12 AM

Quote from: Dicey on November 30, 2017, 09:13:52 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 29, 2017, 05:38:53 PM

It's all lifestyles of the rich and famous frugal on this thread.

FTFY

Ha that's better.  I don't think many of us are famous ( but who knows )! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 01, 2017, 09:00:41 AM

We just hit the 3M mark, but I'm including the equity in our house. Background: I'm 41, my husband is 50. We both work in tech, and live in a VHCOL. Almost half of that 3M is in our 401Ks. The rest is split between liquid investments & home equity. My plan is to start spending down the liquid (if needed), as I'll be quitting my high paying job in June. I think our net worth will stay roughly the same, as our investments will grow, and my husband is hitting the sweet spot of his stock vesting schedule.

From a timing perspective, our net worth grew as follows (and, using the numbers I have available on my tracking chart - not because they are particularly round). The large increases are mostly due to stock vests.
-1/11 - $790K
-2/13 - $1,025,000
-10/14 - $1,514,000
-5/15 - $2,056,000
-11/16 - $2,381,000
-12/17 - $3,098,000

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on December 01, 2017, 09:05:47 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on November 30, 2017, 11:27:12 AM

Quote from: Dicey on November 30, 2017, 09:13:52 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 29, 2017, 05:38:53 PM

It's all lifestyles of the rich and famous frugal on this thread.

FTFY

Ha that's better.  I don't think many of us are famous ( but who knows )!

I suspect even if there are famous folk here, they'd value frugality over fame. Otherwise, why would they be here?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on December 01, 2017, 11:54:17 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 01, 2017, 09:00:41 AM

We just hit the 3M mark, but I'm including the equity in our house. Background: I'm 41, my husband is 50. We both work in tech, and live in a VHCOL. Almost half of that 3M is in our 401Ks. The rest is split between liquid investments & home equity. My plan is to start spending down the liquid (if needed), as I'll be quitting my high paying job in June. I think our net worth will stay roughly the same, as our investments will grow, and my husband is hitting the sweet spot of his stock vesting schedule.

From a timing perspective, our net worth grew as follows (and, using the numbers I have available on my tracking chart - not because they are particularly round). The large increases are mostly due to stock vests.
-1/11 - $790K
-2/13 - $1,025,000
-10/14 - $1,514,000
-5/15 - $2,056,000
-11/16 - $2,381,000
-12/17 - $3,098,000

+700K in the past year. You must be getting nose bleeds!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 01, 2017, 12:18:55 PM

Quote from: Itchyfeet on December 01, 2017, 11:54:17 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 01, 2017, 09:00:41 AM

We just hit the 3M mark, but I'm including the equity in our house. Background: I'm 41, my husband is 50. We both work in tech, and live in a VHCOL. Almost half of that 3M is in our 401Ks. The rest is split between liquid investments & home equity. My plan is to start spending down the liquid (if needed), as I'll be quitting my high paying job in June. I think our net worth will stay roughly the same, as our investments will grow, and my husband is hitting the sweet spot of his stock vesting schedule.

From a timing perspective, our net worth grew as follows (and, using the numbers I have available on my tracking chart - not because they are particularly round). The large increases are mostly due to stock vests.
-1/11 - $790K
-2/13 - $1,025,000
-10/14 - $1,514,000
-5/15 - $2,056,000
-11/16 - $2,381,000
-12/17 - $3,098,000

+700K in the past year. You must be getting nose bleeds!

We can only take some of the credit. The company we (both) work for has had quite a stock increase. Which has led to our vested (unsold) options being worth quite a bit more. And, I'm finally really accruing meaningful options, which was tougher a few years ago when we were both newer to the company. But, the gravy train will be slowing down very quickly once I leave (planned date of end of June, 2018)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on December 04, 2017, 08:32:48 AM

Have the options been exercised, or is that the book value of the unexercised option?

 If the latter have you accounted for the tax liability on the options... if any is triggered on vesting or exercising.

It’s hard to imagine growing NW by $700k without a similarly hefty tax bill.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 04, 2017, 01:36:32 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 04, 2017, 08:32:48 AM

Have the options been exercised, or is that the book value of the unexercised option?

 If the latter have you accounted for the tax liability on the options... if any is triggered on vesting or exercising.

It’s hard to imagine growing NW by $700k without a similarly hefty tax bill.

These are exercised options. We have the taxes automatically withheld before sale. There is a marginal amount left after that, which we save for, but our taxes for the holding is set & not adjustable. This isn't our first year of stock - our options have been vesting for four years. The amount has just grown more meaningful given length at the company.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on December 04, 2017, 07:01:24 PM

Nice!!!

Nothing more to be said really. Comgrats!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 04, 2017, 07:23:04 PM

To the east side (movin on up)
To a deluxe apartment in the sky.
Movin' on up (movin on up) To the east side (movin on up)
We finally got a piece of the pie.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=moving+on+up+to+the+east+side+lyrics&view=detail&mid=A95A073956BE39814DE9A95A073956BE39814DE9&FORM=VIRE

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: oldtoyota on December 04, 2017, 07:25:42 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 26, 2017, 12:34:07 PM

Quote from: Weathering on February 24, 2017, 05:05:54 PM

Best part about being a Mustacian between $2M and $3M is that no one knows.
Mustacians in this savings bracket don't stick out as presenting an image of being "rich."
Most people who display the image of being rich really are living paycheck to paycheck.

A guy bought in iPhone 5 off me via Craigslist about a month ago. He was in the US from Costa Rica in order to skydive at 7 different locations. He drove a 1990s VW van (not old enough to have value and definitely not running well). He looked like a 50 year old hippy, yet I would wager that he is more financially independent than most of my gold-collar friends.

Stealth wealth is the place for me.  I'm just not comfortable letting people know my NW has crested 2M.  Since we still work it doesn't show much.  I shop at the dollar store and Goodwill.   My vehicle is 9 years old.  We haven't moved out of the home we bought in 1992.

Stealth wealth for me, too. I also shop at thrift stores, if I buy clothing at all, and my cars are oooolllld.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on December 04, 2017, 10:38:53 PM

I feel right at home in my soon to be 10 year old F250 XLT.  It will haul my stuff and I don't wash it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on December 04, 2017, 11:16:25 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 04, 2017, 10:38:53 PM

I feel right at home in my soon to be 10 year old F250 XLT.  It will haul my stuff and I don't wash it.

10 years old?.. our F250 was built in '89.. of course it uses so much gas we don't drive it much...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on December 05, 2017, 09:20:28 AM

I hope to keep it a long time, 12 miles per gallon ain't very Mustacian.   We kept my wife's old Honda Accord,  190k miles.  Maybe I'll buy an electric car in a few years, never a new gasoline car for sure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: GettingClose on December 05, 2017, 10:36:31 AM

With the security of the $3M stash achieved, I just negotiated an 8-week leave of absence, starting in late January.  I need to come in half a day a week to do some key management tasks, but can probably skip that a couple of times.

I don't plan to go anywhere; have been working since 1991 for the same company without ever taking more than 2.5 weeks off, and I'm just tired.  It's one big push or project after another. 

My plans:
1) work out 6 days/week. I already do 4-5x, but after working 9-10 hours, so I never do stretching or put in an extra 10 minutes.
2) cook dinner every night
3) convert all my photo albums over the years to Shutterfly books
4) do what yardwork can be done, depending on the weather
5) spend much more time with my grandkids
6) read a lot
7) maybe scan all receipts, tax forms, etc, in two big filing cabinets, to permanently eliminate that clutter.   This is 25 years' worth ... Does anyone have any experience with good software/hardware for doing this?

So excited!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on December 05, 2017, 11:31:39 AM

Hmmm, excited about filing.... can’t see that ever happening to me.

Whilst not exactly going completely crazy with consumption, I would say that DW and I are quite conspicuous with our financial good fortune, unlike most here.

Our income is quite high (not as high as some, but higher than most), and I am perfectly happy with us spending half and saving half. I monitor our money closely but haven’t felt the need to real in spending.

We blow a big chunk of earnings on travel to all sorts of exotic locations all over the world, which we then facebrag about shamelessly in a very un moustachian way..... this is the main way we are conspicuous.

I am a little embarrassed at our financial good fortune, and by how much we spend on travel, but YOLO (blush) and there is nothing else we particularly want to spend the money on.

We share 1 car and it’s almost 6 years old. Our last car we kept for 12 years. We don’t spend much on clothes or furniture or other junk. It’s not hard for us to save half of what we earn and still travel to wherever we want, even if it’s only for a few days, making the cost per day ridiculous.

Despite this flaunting of spending power, I don’t think I could ever get the courage to tell anyone straight up what my net worth is. It’s not even that high, but still higher than most could ever accumulate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: GettingClose on December 05, 2017, 11:43:57 AM

Quote

Hmmm, excited about filing.... can’t see that ever happening to me.

Hahaha! The excitement wasn't related to filing :-)

We're not overly mustachian either, our (hopefully soon to be sold) house is ridiculous for two people, and we travel quite a bit, too.  However we drive older used cars, do our own yardwork, re-use, recycle, and comparison shop.  We too could never mention net worth, or that the house is paid off, etc.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on December 05, 2017, 12:04:42 PM

Quote from: GettingClose on December 05, 2017, 10:36:31 AM

With the security of the $3M stash achieved, I just negotiated an 8-week leave of absence, starting in late January.  I need to come in half a day a week to do some key management tasks, but can probably skip that a couple of times.

I don't plan to go anywhere; have been working since 1991 for the same company without ever taking more than 2.5 weeks off, and I'm just tired.  It's one big push or project after another. 

My plans:
1) work out 6 days/week. I already do 4-5x, but after working 9-10 hours, so I never do stretching or put in an extra 10 minutes.
2) cook dinner every night
3) convert all my photo albums over the years to Shutterfly books
4) do what yardwork can be done, depending on the weather
5) spend much more time with my grandkids
6) read a lot
7) maybe scan all receipts, tax forms, etc, in two big filing cabinets, to permanently eliminate that clutter.   This is 25 years' worth ... Does anyone have any experience with good software/hardware for doing this?

So excited!

Wow only 2.5 weeks a year vacation?  No disrespect, but maybe that's why you are tired! 

I have also worked since 1992 at the same job ( tech firm ).  And while it is a high pressure job, I *always* take all of my vacation.  To me, it is one of the key ways I can keep my sanity while working here.  Some of the 'workaholics' don't always like it but I tell them that the company gives us vacation for a reason...lol.

As far as scanning receipts and such...we don't do that.  We charge everything and the credit card summary is enough of a record of what we spent money on.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on December 05, 2017, 02:01:12 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 05, 2017, 12:04:42 PM

Quote from: GettingClose on December 05, 2017, 10:36:31 AM

With the security of the $3M stash achieved, I just negotiated an 8-week leave of absence, starting in late January.  I need to come in half a day a week to do some key management tasks, but can probably skip that a couple of times.

I don't plan to go anywhere; have been working since 1991 for the same company without ever taking more than 2.5 weeks off, and I'm just tired.  It's one big push or project after another. 

My plans:
1) work out 6 days/week. I already do 4-5x, but after working 9-10 hours, so I never do stretching or put in an extra 10 minutes.
2) cook dinner every night
3) convert all my photo albums over the years to Shutterfly books
4) do what yardwork can be done, depending on the weather
5) spend much more time with my grandkids
6) read a lot
7) maybe scan all receipts, tax forms, etc, in two big filing cabinets, to permanently eliminate that clutter.   This is 25 years' worth ... Does anyone have any experience with good software/hardware for doing this?
8) Take lots of naps

So excited!

Wow only 2.5 weeks a year vacation?  No disrespect, but maybe that's why you are tired! I hope OP means 2.5 weeks at a time, not total per year. If you're reading it correctly, that would be so, so sad!

I have also worked since 1992 at the same job ( tech firm ).  And while it is a high pressure job, I *always* take all of my vacation.  To me, it is one of the key ways I can keep my sanity while working here.  Some of the 'workaholics' don't always like it but I tell them that the company gives us vacation for a reason...lol. Great response!

As far as scanning receipts and such...we don't do that.  We charge everything and the credit card summary is enough of a record of what we spent money on. Erm, I'm guessing this indicates you have never been audited? This is NOT a Best Practice #askmehowIknow

Getting Close, you missed one. FTFY.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: GettingClose on December 05, 2017, 02:20:34 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 05, 2017, 02:01:12 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 05, 2017, 12:04:42 PM

Quote from: GettingClose on December 05, 2017, 10:36:31 AM

With the security of the $3M stash achieved, I just negotiated an 8-week leave of absence, starting in late January.  I need to come in half a day a week to do some key management tasks, but can probably skip that a couple of times.

I don't plan to go anywhere; have been working since 1991 for the same company without ever taking more than 2.5 weeks off, and I'm just tired.  It's one big push or project after another. 

My plans:
1) work out 6 days/week. I already do 4-5x, but after working 9-10 hours, so I never do stretching or put in an extra 10 minutes.
2) cook dinner every night
3) convert all my photo albums over the years to Shutterfly books
4) do what yardwork can be done, depending on the weather
5) spend much more time with my grandkids
6) read a lot
7) maybe scan all receipts, tax forms, etc, in two big filing cabinets, to permanently eliminate that clutter.   This is 25 years' worth ... Does anyone have any experience with good software/hardware for doing this?
8) Take lots of naps and drink lots of hot chocolate

So excited!

Wow only 2.5 weeks a year vacation?  No disrespect, but maybe that's why you are tired! I hope OP means 2.5 weeks at a time, not total per year. If you're reading it correctly, that would be so, so sad! Yes, I have 5 weeks of PTO + 10 paid holidays, and I do take it all.

I have also worked since 1992 at the same job ( tech firm ).  And while it is a high pressure job, I *always* take all of my vacation.  To me, it is one of the key ways I can keep my sanity while working here.  Some of the 'workaholics' don't always like it but I tell them that the company gives us vacation for a reason...lol. Great response! Yes, the higher the pressure, the more vacation is needed.

As far as scanning receipts and such...we don't do that.  We charge everything and the credit card summary is enough of a record of what we spent money on. Erm, I'm guessing this indicates you have never been audited? This is NOT a Best Practice #askmehowIknow

Getting Close, you missed one. FTFY.  I appreciate that :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on December 06, 2017, 07:34:43 AM

Quote from: GettingClose on December 05, 2017, 02:20:34 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 05, 2017, 02:01:12 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 05, 2017, 12:04:42 PM

Quote from: GettingClose on December 05, 2017, 10:36:31 AM

With the security of the $3M stash achieved, I just negotiated an 8-week leave of absence, starting in late January.  I need to come in half a day a week to do some key management tasks, but can probably skip that a couple of times.

I don't plan to go anywhere; have been working since 1991 for the same company without ever taking more than 2.5 weeks off, and I'm just tired.  It's one big push or project after another. 

My plans:
1) work out 6 days/week. I already do 4-5x, but after working 9-10 hours, so I never do stretching or put in an extra 10 minutes.
2) cook dinner every night
3) convert all my photo albums over the years to Shutterfly books
4) do what yardwork can be done, depending on the weather
5) spend much more time with my grandkids
6) read a lot
7) maybe scan all receipts, tax forms, etc, in two big filing cabinets, to permanently eliminate that clutter.   This is 25 years' worth ... Does anyone have any experience with good software/hardware for doing this?
8) Take lots of naps and drink lots of hot chocolate

So excited!

Wow only 2.5 weeks a year vacation?  No disrespect, but maybe that's why you are tired! I hope OP means 2.5 weeks at a time, not total per year. If you're reading it correctly, that would be so, so sad! Yes, I have 5 weeks of PTO + 10 paid holidays, and I do take it all.

I have also worked since 1992 at the same job ( tech firm ).  And while it is a high pressure job, I *always* take all of my vacation.  To me, it is one of the key ways I can keep my sanity while working here.  Some of the 'workaholics' don't always like it but I tell them that the company gives us vacation for a reason...lol. Great response! Yes, the higher the pressure, the more vacation is needed.

As far as scanning receipts and such...we don't do that.  We charge everything and the credit card summary is enough of a record of what we spent money on. Erm, I'm guessing this indicates you have never been audited? This is NOT a Best Practice #askmehowIknow

Getting Close, you missed one. FTFY.  I appreciate that :-)

Whew! Glad you do take advantage of your vacation.  You scared me there for a minute. :-)

Like I mentioned, where I work, there are MANY ( often grumpy ) people who use very little vacation.  It boggles my mind and I'm not afraid to tell them ( in a gentle way ) why they might be a little bit 'grumpy'. 

As for the receipt scanning thing...I'm aware that it's probably not a 'best practice'.  However, I also know that very, very few people do it.  An excuse?  Absolutely...but I guess I'll take my chances.

And one more thing.  As I get closer to FI....or have already arrived, I feel less and less pressure on the job.  I'm not sure that is a good thing...because I also feel less motivated! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on December 06, 2017, 09:10:51 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 05, 2017, 11:31:39 AM

Hmmm, excited about filing.... can’t see that ever happening to me.

Whilst not exactly going completely crazy with consumption, I would say that DW and I are quite conspicuous with our financial good fortune, unlike most here.

Our income is quite high (not as high as some, but higher than most), and I am perfectly happy with us spending half and saving half. I monitor our money closely but haven’t felt the need to real in spending.

We blow a big chunk of earnings on travel to all sorts of exotic locations all over the world, which we then facebrag about shamelessly in a very un moustachian way..... this is the main way we are conspicuous.

I am a little embarrassed at our financial good fortune, and by how much we spend on travel, but YOLO (blush) and there is nothing else we particularly want to spend the money on.

We share 1 car and it’s almost 6 years old. Our last car we kept for 12 years. We don’t spend much on clothes or furniture or other junk. It’s not hard for us to save half of what we earn and still travel to wherever we want, even if it’s only for a few days, making the cost per day ridiculous.

Despite this flaunting of spending power, I don’t think I could ever get the courage to tell anyone straight up what my net worth is. It’s not even that high, but still higher than most could ever accumulate.

If you're saving half of what you earn, that seems pretty great by any standards.

So, where do you like to travel to?    We're travelers, also.  We don't brag about our travels, and try to emphasize the frugality of our adventures.  (Thailand!  5 dollars for a full 3 course dinner!)  We're extremely frequent travelers (I filled a passport in 4 years), and that is hard to downplay when one is unavailable to go to a movie or dinner, because they are out of the country.  Currently we're traveling internationally about 6 times a year, mostly to Europe, with other destinations sprinkled in.  It's a dream come true.  We are not high budget travelers, though, and have found that we can travel Europe for about half what it costs to do the same thing at home.  I've stayed in 1000 year old castles for less than $50 a night. But frugal is who we are.  We can talk for 20 minutes over the merits of a $40 vs. $60 hotel room, and often do.   We do fancy hotels occasionally, but only if some sort of amazing bargain was found.  10 cents on the dollar is about right to lure me.
Really, having a high NW is a blessing.  We have earned every penny, made good choices over decades, had some good fortune (along with plenty of mistakes), and worked hard (yes, yes we did!).   Frugality got us here, and that doesn't change with more money tossed in.   We help our family, including taking them on trips and making generous gifts.   Our kids get a good college education and we don't have to scrimp because of it.  We drive dependable vehicles, albeit until they die or become less dependable.  We live in a nice house with nice stuff, go on trips, enjoy ourselves,  AND can still spread it around.   

As far as  actually spilling the NW value... DON"T!  Talk to us instead!   Some friends of mine recently sold a business and the gossip was that it sold at a 1.5 million price tag.  It pricks up everybody's ears, including mine.  They are living frugally compared to most, and that's a topic for the spendthrifts in and of itself.  The green monster lifts his head over these topics.  Financial success is just so rare in this world, that it's an alluring topic.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on December 06, 2017, 09:40:48 AM

[

My plans:
1) work out 6 days/week. I already do 4-5x, but after working 9-10 hours, so I never do stretching or put in an extra 10 minutes.
2) cook dinner every night
3) convert all my photo albums over the years to Shutterfly books
4) do what yardwork can be done, depending on the weather
5) spend much more time with my grandkids
6) read a lot
7) maybe scan all receipts, tax forms, etc, in two big filing cabinets, to permanently eliminate that clutter.   This is 25 years' worth ... Does anyone have any experience with good software/hardware for doing this?
8) Take lots of naps and drink lots of hot chocolate

So excited!
[/quote]
  That should be very gratifying.  We are winding down our work, too, and it's so nice to be able to tackle all the things that have been low on the priority list.  For me, it was my garden and de-cluttering.  The garden is thriving, and most of it was planted earlier this year.   I wanted to emphasize native plants that are bird, bee and butterfly friendly.  It's like a little ecosystem out there.   It's so rewarding! 

Quote

And one more thing.  As I get closer to FI....or have already arrived, I feel less and less pressure on the job.  I'm not sure that is a good thing...because I also feel less motivated!

Sounds great!  Time is like closet space- you'll fill it with the tasks at hand.  Enjoy the R & R, and congrats!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on December 06, 2017, 11:50:52 AM

Quote from: Jill P on December 06, 2017, 09:10:51 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 05, 2017, 11:31:39 AM

Hmmm, excited about filing.... can’t see that ever happening to me.

Whilst not exactly going completely crazy with consumption, I would say that DW and I are quite conspicuous with our financial good fortune, unlike most here.

Our income is quite high (not as high as some, but higher than most), and I am perfectly happy with us spending half and saving half. I monitor our money closely but haven’t felt the need to real in spending.

We blow a big chunk of earnings on travel to all sorts of exotic locations all over the world, which we then facebrag about shamelessly in a very un moustachian way..... this is the main way we are conspicuous.

I am a little embarrassed at our financial good fortune, and by how much we spend on travel, but YOLO (blush) and there is nothing else we particularly want to spend the money on.

We share 1 car and it’s almost 6 years old. Our last car we kept for 12 years. We don’t spend much on clothes or furniture or other junk. It’s not hard for us to save half of what we earn and still travel to wherever we want, even if it’s only for a few days, making the cost per day ridiculous.

Despite this flaunting of spending power, I don’t think I could ever get the courage to tell anyone straight up what my net worth is. It’s not even that high, but still higher than most could ever accumulate.

If you're saving half of what you earn, that seems pretty great by any standards.

So, where do you like to travel to?    We're travelers, also.  We don't brag about our travels, and try to emphasize the frugality of our adventures.  (Thailand!  5 dollars for a full 3 course dinner!)  We're extremely frequent travelers (I filled a passport in 4 years), and that is hard to downplay when one is unavailable to go to a movie or dinner, because they are out of the country.  Currently we're traveling internationally about 6 times a year, mostly to Europe, with other destinations sprinkled in.  It's a dream come true.  We are not high budget travelers, though, and have found that we can travel Europe for about half what it costs to do the same thing at home.  I've stayed in 1000 year old castles for less than $50 a night. But frugal is who we are.  We can talk for 20 minutes over the merits of a $40 vs. $60 hotel room, and often do.   We do fancy hotels occasionally, but only if some sort of amazing bargain was found.  10 cents on the dollar is about right to lure me.
Really, having a high NW is a blessing.  We have earned every penny, made good choices over decades, had some good fortune (along with plenty of mistakes), and worked hard (yes, yes we did!).   Frugality got us here, and that doesn't change with more money tossed in.   We help our family, including taking them on trips and making generous gifts.   Our kids get a good college education and we don't have to scrimp because of it.  We drive dependable vehicles, albeit until they die or become less dependable.  We live in a nice house with nice stuff, go on trips, enjoy ourselves,  AND can still spread it around.   

As far as  actually spilling the NW value... DON"T!  Talk to us instead!   Some friends of mine recently sold a business and the gossip was that it sold at a 1.5 million price tag.  It pricks up everybody's ears, including mine.  They are living frugally compared to most, and that's a topic for the spendthrifts in and of itself.  The green monster lifts his head over these topics.  Financial success is just so rare in this world, that it's an alluring topic.

We travel wherever takes our fancy. Sometimes we go el cheapo, sometimes not.

Last week I had some business in France, so I organised to meet DW in Finland afterwards and we flew up to Lapland to do a husky safari and squeeze in a little skiing. We squeezed a lot into 4 days and had an awesome time.

We keep saying we should spend less on travel, but then some opportunity presents itself and we just keep concluding that we have never regretted the things we have done, just the things we didn’t do. Hence, I try to make that list as short as possible.

At the end of it all we might have to work an extra year compared to what would have been the case if we had passed on all the travel opportunities and stuck to 1 overseas trip every couple of years. Working the extra year is the right choice for us.

Retiring at 46 or at 47 is much of a muchness, and we have had a life full of incredible experiences exploring the world. We would never wish to have replaced our experiences with a couple of hundred grand extra in the bank..... but these are the words of someone who got pretty lucky on the money front.... yes there was hard work, persistence, risk taking and good decision making involved, also a fair amount of stress and way too many hours sitting in airport terminals........but also a fat slab of good fortune.

In 2 weeks we fly to Sydney. Yay!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: GettingClose on December 06, 2017, 02:03:16 PM

Quote

Last week I had some business in France, so I organised to meet DW in Finland afterwards and we flew up to Lapland to do a husky safari and squeeze in a little skiing. We squeezed a lot into 4 days and had an awesome time.

We keep saying we should spend less on travel, but then some opportunity presents itself and we just keep concluding that we have never regretted the things we have done, just the things we didn’t do. Hence, I try to make that list as short as possible.

At the end of it all we might have to work an extra year compared to what would have been the case if we had passed on all the travel opportunities and stuck to 1 overseas trip every couple of years. Working the extra year is the right choice for us.

Sounds like a good balance of "now" and "later".

Quote

Retiring at 46 or at 47 is much of a muchness, and we have had a life full of incredible experiences exploring the world.

I'm right around these ages ... when did you FIRE?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on December 06, 2017, 08:02:59 PM

Quote from: GettingClose on December 06, 2017, 02:03:16 PM

Quote

Last week I had some business in France, so I organised to meet DW in Finland afterwards and we flew up to Lapland to do a husky safari and squeeze in a little skiing. We squeezed a lot into 4 days and had an awesome time.

We keep saying we should spend less on travel, but then some opportunity presents itself and we just keep concluding that we have never regretted the things we have done, just the things we didn’t do. Hence, I try to make that list as short as possible.

At the end of it all we might have to work an extra year compared to what would have been the case if we had passed on all the travel opportunities and stuck to 1 overseas trip every couple of years. Working the extra year is the right choice for us.

Sounds like a good balance of "now" and "later".

Quote

Retiring at 46 or at 47 is much of a muchness, and we have had a life full of incredible experiences exploring the world.

I'm right around these ages ... when did you FIRE?

Planning to FIRE mid 2019. Still working and squeezing in life around the demands of my employer.

I am fortunate to get 6 weeks leave a year, plus the 10 public holidays here, so effectively 8 weeks of adventures each year, but split into smallish chucks. Looking forward to slowing things down post FIRE. Maybe half the trips, but each trip triple the duration.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Secretly Saving on December 06, 2017, 08:13:40 PM

Quote from: Jill P on December 06, 2017, 09:10:51 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 05, 2017, 11:31:39 AM

Hmmm, excited about filing.... can’t see that ever happening to me.

Whilst not exactly going completely crazy with consumption, I would say that DW and I are quite conspicuous with our financial good fortune, unlike most here.

Our income is quite high (not as high as some, but higher than most), and I am perfectly happy with us spending half and saving half. I monitor our money closely but haven’t felt the need to real in spending.

We blow a big chunk of earnings on travel to all sorts of exotic locations all over the world, which we then facebrag about shamelessly in a very un moustachian way..... this is the main way we are conspicuous.

I am a little embarrassed at our financial good fortune, and by how much we spend on travel, but YOLO (blush) and there is nothing else we particularly want to spend the money on.

We share 1 car and it’s almost 6 years old. Our last car we kept for 12 years. We don’t spend much on clothes or furniture or other junk. It’s not hard for us to save half of what we earn and still travel to wherever we want, even if it’s only for a few days, making the cost per day ridiculous.

Despite this flaunting of spending power, I don’t think I could ever get the courage to tell anyone straight up what my net worth is. It’s not even that high, but still higher than most could ever accumulate.

If you're saving half of what you earn, that seems pretty great by any standards.

So, where do you like to travel to?    We're travelers, also.  We don't brag about our travels, and try to emphasize the frugality of our adventures.  (Thailand!  5 dollars for a full 3 course dinner!)  We're extremely frequent travelers (I filled a passport in 4 years), and that is hard to downplay when one is unavailable to go to a movie or dinner, because they are out of the country.  Currently we're traveling internationally about 6 times a year, mostly to Europe, with other destinations sprinkled in.  It's a dream come true.  We are not high budget travelers, though, and have found that we can travel Europe for about half what it costs to do the same thing at home.  I've stayed in 1000 year old castles for less than $50 a night. But frugal is who we are.  We can talk for 20 minutes over the merits of a $40 vs. $60 hotel room, and often do.   We do fancy hotels occasionally, but only if some sort of amazing bargain was found.  10 cents on the dollar is about right to lure me.
Really, having a high NW is a blessing.  We have earned every penny, made good choices over decades, had some good fortune (along with plenty of mistakes), and worked hard (yes, yes we did!).   Frugality got us here, and that doesn't change with more money tossed in.   We help our family, including taking them on trips and making generous gifts.   Our kids get a good college education and we don't have to scrimp because of it.  We drive dependable vehicles, albeit until they die or become less dependable.  We live in a nice house with nice stuff, go on trips, enjoy ourselves,  AND can still spread it around.   

As far as  actually spilling the NW value... DON"T!  Talk to us instead!   Some friends of mine recently sold a business and the gossip was that it sold at a 1.5 million price tag.  It pricks up everybody's ears, including mine.  They are living frugally compared to most, and that's a topic for the spendthrifts in and of itself.  The green monster lifts his head over these topics.  Financial success is just so rare in this world, that it's an alluring topic.

Jill P, I'd love to hear about your favorite places -- 1000 year old castles and more all on a budget!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on December 06, 2017, 09:41:36 PM

Please share your travel stories.   My wife and I haven't traveled much at all.  Just too busy with work and family.   I'd love to strike out upon the world as a nomad.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: PhrugalPhan on December 06, 2017, 09:47:54 PM

I read this complete thread and enjoyed reading about how you can calculate your 'stache.  As I only have about $850k in all of my accounts I didn't think I could fit in here, then I reconsidered.  Maybe the group can say if this makes sense.

Here goes.... while I am single, I am in a 6+ year relationship where she is going to move in with me when she retires.  My GF has just over $1 Mil in her TSP & inherited IRA (about $1.01 Mil right now).  Since most people include significant others, if you combine our 'staches we have about $1.85Mil.

In addition we both have pensions at our jobs.  She is a Fed and can retire at the end of 2018 with a $30k/year payout for life with a COLA (and mostly paid for health insurance).  Using the 25X multiplier, that would be an approximate $750k 'stache addition.

And then I have a pension I am working towards as well.  Its a solid local government pension.  I am currently vested at $29k/yr and if I continue working 5 more years I can get it right away and will probably be $40k/year.  If I left now, I have to wait a decade to start getting it.  If I take the $29k/year, use the 25X multiplier, and discount it by 25% (I figure that's a conservative number?), that gives me $543k to add to a 'stache. 

Is it safe to say we already have an $3+ Mil 'stache?  That seems crazy beyond belief.  I also have a paid off house that comps in at about $350k too.  I didn't mean to write and brag, but while I knew we wouldn't have to worry about money really, I had no idea we could consider that we are worth this amount.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on December 07, 2017, 06:26:15 AM

Sounds like you've jumped right through the $3M point.  Waiting for someone to start a $3M->$4M thread.  I know some here are reluctant, taking to heart the MMM story.  How could anyone have more than $1M and not retire?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on December 07, 2017, 08:44:13 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on December 06, 2017, 09:47:54 PM

I read this complete thread and enjoyed reading about how you can calculate your 'stache.  As I only have about $850k in all of my accounts I didn't think I could fit in here, then I reconsidered.  Maybe the group can say if this makes sense.

Here goes.... while I am single, I am in a 6+ year relationship where she is going to move in with me when she retires.  My GF has just over $1 Mil in her TSP & inherited IRA (about $1.01 Mil right now).  Since most people include significant others, if you combine our 'staches we have about $1.85Mil.

In addition we both have pensions at our jobs.  She is a Fed and can retire at the end of 2018 with a $30k/year payout for life with a COLA (and mostly paid for health insurance).  Using the 25X multiplier, that would be an approximate $750k 'stache addition.

And then I have a pension I am working towards as well.  Its a solid local government pension.  I am currently vested at $29k/yr and if I continue working 5 more years I can get it right away and will probably be $40k/year.  If I left now, I have to wait a decade to start getting it.  If I take the $29k/year, use the 25X multiplier, and discount it by 25% (I figure that's a conservative number?), that gives me $543k to add to a 'stache. 

Is it safe to say we already have an $3+ Mil 'stache?  That seems crazy beyond belief.  I also have a paid off house that comps in at about $350k too.  I didn't mean to write and brag, but while I knew we wouldn't have to worry about money really, I had no idea we could consider that we are worth this amount.

Looks like you fit in fine here!  The numbers are just a general guideline...people calculate in different ways and differ on what they include in the 'final number'.

As for us, I am not currently counting my wife's pension...only 'investable assets' and the paid-off house...to arrive at our 2.4M number.  Adding in her pension would result in a greater number...but who cares?   One could also factor in future Social Security income..but none really do ( however, pretty much any retirement planner does...like personal capital, etc... ).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on December 07, 2017, 05:53:53 PM

I haven't seen any hard set rules on how to tabulate your wealth as a requirement to pos5 here.  I toss in paid off real estate to make the cut.  We all welcome your input.   I know I've personally learned a ton from these folks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on December 07, 2017, 10:50:42 PM

Yes same here.. I tend to include the current value of pensions because that turns into real income which is what we want our Stash to do as well.

 I tend to exclude the house because we are more than likely to stay here for the forseable future despite dreams to the contrary, even then we still need somewhere to live. Its also hard to value because there are few comps to our little farmette.

I any case

Stash - $1.94m
Pensions - about $0.51m
House -- about $0.4m or so.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on December 07, 2017, 10:59:49 PM

After years of budgeting and watching the pennies, we are richer now than we ever imagined possible. We realized that between RMD's, DH's pension w/ COLA and health benefits, and Social Security, we stand to make more per year in retirement than we ever did working. Therefore, I don't count every penny of NW, because we have "Enough". I think we could level up if a new thread was started, but I'd have to calculate and include the value of his pension, which I am too lazy to do.

I like following along on the $500k --->$1M, and the $1M--->$2M threads too. It's fun to see people making good decisions and great progress!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Secretly Saving on December 08, 2017, 04:52:52 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 07, 2017, 10:59:49 PM

After years of budgeting and watching the pennies, we are richer now than we ever imagined possible. We realized that between RMD's, DH's pension w/ COLA and health benefits, and Social Security, we stand to make more per year in retirement than we ever did working. Therefore, I don't count every penny of NW, because we have "Enough". I think we could level up if a new thread was started, but I'd have to calculate and include the value of his pension, which I am too lazy to do.

I like following along on the $500k --->$1M, and the $1M--->$2M threads too. It's fun to see people making good decisions and great progress!

Yes, it is fun to celebrate other's successes!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on December 08, 2017, 07:49:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 07, 2017, 10:50:42 PM

Yes same here.. I tend to include the current value of pensions because that turns into real income which is what we want our Stash to do as well.

 I tend to exclude the house because we are more than likely to stay here for the forseable future despite dreams to the contrary, even then we still need somewhere to live. Its also hard to value because there are few comps to our little farmette.

I any case

Stash - $1.94m
Pensions - about $0.51m
House -- about $0.4m or so.

The problem I have with pensions is personal.  Mine went away...taken by a big corporation when they 'restructured'.   Instead, they gave us a cash balance plan with NO control and they only pay 'market rate' (i.e. - crappy) interest payments to it.   BTW this has happened to millions in the last decade or two....even to people near retirement who were really were counting on the income.  Many of my coworkers fell into this trap and it was extremely sad to see.  Luckily, I was younger at the time.

If you think your pension is safe then I can see adding it in.  However, if for any reason it might not be safe, I'd err on the side of caution.  BTW this is also why many younger folks don't factor in Social Security and treat it as an extra...they fear that it very well might not be around when the time comes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on December 08, 2017, 11:04:36 AM

If I ever make it $3M.... even $3M Aussie rupees, I’ll start a $3M-$4M thread just cause I could 😁. There seems to be a bunch of you that could do so today!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on December 08, 2017, 01:03:57 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 08, 2017, 07:49:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 07, 2017, 10:50:42 PM

Yes same here.. I tend to include the current value of pensions because that turns into real income which is what we want our Stash to do as well.

 I tend to exclude the house because we are more than likely to stay here for the forseable future despite dreams to the contrary, even then we still need somewhere to live. Its also hard to value because there are few comps to our little farmette.

I any case

Stash - $1.94m
Pensions - about $0.51m
House -- about $0.4m or so.

The problem I have with pensions is personal.  Mine went away...taken by a big corporation when they 'restructured'.   Instead, they gave us a cash balance plan with NO control and they only pay 'market rate' (i.e. - crappy) interest payments to it.   BTW this has happened to millions in the last decade or two....even to people near retirement who were really were counting on the income.  Many of my coworkers fell into this trap and it was extremely sad to see.  Luckily, I was younger at the time.

If you think your pension is safe then I can see adding it in.  However, if for any reason it might not be safe, I'd err on the side of caution.  BTW this is also why many younger folks don't factor in Social Security and treat it as an extra...they fear that it very well might not be around when the time comes.

Good point.. How that can be legal is beyond me.. But then again nothing should amaze me in the USA Oligarchy.. Place is run by criminals.

Fortunately for us, DW's pension is State funded in Oregon so it (and one day it will) would have to go bankrupt. Secondly, my UK pension is much better protected and backed by the Government to 90% (100% after I start drawing it). I guess those "evil Socialists" don't take very kindly to big company's stealing their employee pensions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on December 08, 2017, 01:40:16 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 08, 2017, 01:03:57 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 08, 2017, 07:49:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 07, 2017, 10:50:42 PM

Yes same here.. I tend to include the current value of pensions because that turns into real income which is what we want our Stash to do as well.

 I tend to exclude the house because we are more than likely to stay here for the forseable future despite dreams to the contrary, even then we still need somewhere to live. Its also hard to value because there are few comps to our little farmette.

I any case

Stash - $1.94m
Pensions - about $0.51m
House -- about $0.4m or so.

The problem I have with pensions is personal.  Mine went away...taken by a big corporation when they 'restructured'.   Instead, they gave us a cash balance plan with NO control and they only pay 'market rate' (i.e. - crappy) interest payments to it.   BTW this has happened to millions in the last decade or two....even to people near retirement who were really were counting on the income.  Many of my coworkers fell into this trap and it was extremely sad to see.  Luckily, I was younger at the time.

If you think your pension is safe then I can see adding it in.  However, if for any reason it might not be safe, I'd err on the side of caution.  BTW this is also why many younger folks don't factor in Social Security and treat it as an extra...they fear that it very well might not be around when the time comes.

Good point.. How that can be legal is beyond me.. But then again nothing should amaze me in the USA Oligarchy.. Place is run by criminals.

Fortunately for us, DW's pension is State funded in Oregon so it (and one day it will) would have to go bankrupt. Secondly, my UK pension is much better protected and backed by the Government to 90% (100% after I start drawing it). I guess those "evil Socialists" don't take very kindly to big company's stealing their employee pensions.

This happened to me in (2012) 20 years into my career.   I only had 8 years (2020) to go to lock in 50% of my income for life at age 52.  Then the cash balance came.  They paid me $165,000 for 20 years of service into their new plan with a 5% rate of interest.  It's grown with contributions to 331K currently.  I make about 120k a year.  The math here isn't even close.  We got legally screwed.  Many people I've worked with didn't save past the company match in the 401k if that.  You put in 6% they match 50% so most had a relative 9% if that.  They figured the 401k would be play money.  They'd get 60-75k from pension.  It's gone!  One guy I know is 54, has 90k in his 401k, never thought it would be important, wants to retire soon. He still has debt he's paying.   Same company, same opportunity  My 401k is over 10x larger than his.  I'm 49 and have worked less years for the company.  Great guy, really likeable and not a screw-up.  There are many just like him.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 08, 2017, 04:18:00 PM

State pensions and city pensions are all susceptible to being cut in a bankruptcy. City of Detroit employees had their pensions lowered due to the bankruptcy. The state of Illinois and the city of Chicago pensions may eventually be cut down in bankruptcy court.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on December 08, 2017, 04:31:33 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on December 08, 2017, 04:18:00 PM

State pensions and city pensions are all susceptible to being cut in a bankruptcy. City of Detroit employees had their pensions lowered due to the bankruptcy. The state of Illinois and the city of Chicago pensions may eventually be cut down in bankruptcy court.

True, the State has visited court a few times trying to cut the benefits paid under PERs.. Each time they have been sent home with their tail between their legs. I think you'r right though, one day they will prevail.

Fortunately for us the Oregon pension is pretty small and the much better protected UK pension is somewhat larger.

Sounds like if the directors tried raiding the pension funds in the UK they would get a one way ticket to prison! They can't do it anyway because the pension funds have to be in a separate financial company.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on December 09, 2017, 06:00:22 AM

I just logged into my brokerage account and it is showing that the returns I have generated on my stock investments this year are a 18.94% pa.

That is pretty mind blowing, when there was a lot of predictions of flat or down markets for 2017 at the end of last year.

It’s unfortunate that all my NW is not sitting in my brokerage. It’s only about 20% of my NW at this time. Sigh.

A big chunk of my NW (50%) is in a few properties I own and these assets have performed no where near as well as stock in the past year, and values have in fact been declining over the past 6 months. 🙁

But in 2015 and 2016 my property investments performed far stronger than stocks. They were the assets providing 20% returns. I guess that is what diversification provides, a levelling out of volatility by investing across asset classes. My diversification is working so I have to be happy.

I have been slowly changing my investment mix away from property over the past few years, but it takes time.

I also have another big chunk in Australian Superannuation Funds (like 401K) (30% of NW) that is invested by the fund managers with a heavy skew to Australian stocks and Australian fixed interest, which have not performed particularly well in the past year relative to global markets, but still not too bad.

Overall my total portfolio returns have now slipped a smidge below 10% for the year with my properties dragging things down, and me carrying a bit of cash throughout the year. Of course if I could get 10% every year I’d take it!

Still 19% on stocks WOW!!!.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on December 09, 2017, 07:48:21 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 09, 2017, 06:00:22 AM

I just logged into my brokerage account and it is showing that the returns I have generated on my stock investments this year are a 18.94% pa.

That is pretty mind blowing, when there was a lot of predictions of flat or down markets for 2017 at the end of last year.

It’s unfortunate that all my NW is not sitting in my brokerage. It’s only about 20% of my NW at this time. Sigh.

A big chunk of my NW (50%) is in a few properties I own and these assets have performed no where near as well as stock in the past year, and values have in fact been declining over the past 6 months. 🙁

But in 2015 and 2016 my property investments performed far stronger than stocks. They were the assets providing 20% returns. I guess that is what diversification provides, a levelling out of volatility by investing across asset classes. My diversification is working so I have to be happy.

I have been slowly changing my investment mix away from property over the past few years, but it takes time.

I also have another big chunk in Australian Superannuation Funds (like 401K) (30% of NW) that is invested by the fund managers with a heavy skew to Australian stocks and Australian fixed interest, which have not performed particularly well in the past year relative to global markets, but still not too bad.

Overall my total portfolio returns have now slipped a smidge below 10% for the year with my properties dragging things down, and me carrying a bit of cash throughout the year. Of course if I could get 10% every year I’d take it!

Still 19% on stocks WOW!!!.

I don't want to knock owning real assets.  I hope to buy a homestead for retirement soon.  Property gains are most easily made on the front end.  We do own property now, an old bayou fishing camp on stilts.   It was cheap and we fixed it up.  Now million dollar homes surround it and have really screwed up the atmosphere.
Stocks can be volatile, I certainly didn't expect a 23% return this year but that's where were at.  It's put us to within about 8% of our FIRE goal.  If I don't move out the goal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 09, 2017, 11:42:49 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 07, 2017, 06:26:15 AM

Sounds like you've jumped right through the $3M point.  Waiting for someone to start a $3M->$4M thread.  I know some here are reluctant, taking to heart the MMM story.  How could anyone have more than $1M and not retire?

I'll take a stab at the question. I was waiting to buy a house, after we'd relocated for work. It took close to 4 years before we could afford a house (super HCOL, Bay Area). Now that we have the house, I'm waiting to determine the full impact on our taxes, and our overall budget. Our house is insanely expensive, and the property tax is as well. We thought we had a good sense of our take home, but with the new tax bill, it's unclear what we'll be left with. We have both state tax as well as property tax, and it's tough to get a sense of how this will play out at our income level.

Aside from the financial sense, we needed to sell our rental property to fully fund the stache that will now allow me to retire/go part-time. That house sold in September. There's also the emotional side. My husband has had some uneasiness about me leaving a high paying job without a few details sorted. We've been working through all of those. I'm planning to FIRE in June of 2018. My husband won't FIRE, both based on desire, and because we have sevenish more years until our kids are out of school & we can sell this house.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on December 09, 2017, 09:15:39 PM

Welcome, @PhrugalPhan .  It's great to see this thread really coming to life.  Anyway you want to count it up is fine with us.    I hope they don't start a thread with a higher number because it would split the group. 

Somebody asked up thread about frugal travel, aka the high/low life.  We travel strictly on points, and then try to get out of tourist areas.   Also, destinations can be chosen for economic reasons-- that would mean NOT London, Paris, Rome, Iceland, or Hawaii.   Your dollar will stretch if you get out of the mainstream places.  Asia, Eastern Europe and Latin America are bargains.  Consider a housing swap or AirBnB rental.  If you have access to a basic kitchen, you can eat most of your meals in the room.   

@MaybeBabyMustache , it sounds like a prudent move to wait and see how things shake out after buying the pricey home.  You could give it a year or two before figuring out where best to move the pieces on your financial chessboard.    Is your rental showing a positive cash flow?  Would you have a big capital gain if you sold it? That could wipe out any reason to sell.  Can you keep it and take the slow route, meaning use the profit from the rental to pay down your mortgage, instead of selling it?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 10, 2017, 08:02:12 AM

Quote from: Jill P on December 09, 2017, 09:15:39 PM

Welcome, @PhrugalPhan .  It's great to see this thread really coming to life.  Anyway you want to count it up is fine with us.    I hope they don't start a thread with a higher number because it would split the group. 

Somebody asked up thread about frugal travel, aka the high/low life.  We travel strictly on points, and then try to get out of tourist areas.   Also, destinations can be chosen for economic reasons-- that would mean NOT London, Paris, Rome, Iceland, or Hawaii.   Your dollar will stretch if you get out of the mainstream places.  Asia, Eastern Europe and Latin America are bargains.  Consider a housing swap or AirBnB rental.  If you have access to a basic kitchen, you can eat most of your meals in the room.   

@MaybeBabyMustache , it sounds like a prudent move to wait and see how things shake out after buying the pricey home.  You could give it a year or two before figuring out where best to move the pieces on your financial chessboard.    Is your rental showing a positive cash flow?  Would you have a big capital gain if you sold it? That could wipe out any reason to sell.  Can you keep it and take the slow route, meaning use the profit from the rental to pay down your mortgage, instead of selling it?

The rental house is sold. :-) We sold it in September & cleared about $700K after taxes. We are still waiting for a final number after 2017 ends. But, that was the estimate our accountant gave us. I've set my FIRE date for June to give me the flexibility of making any last minute adjustments as needed, after taxes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on December 10, 2017, 08:27:39 AM

^Nice number!^. Sounds like CA or East Coast Real Estate. (Sorry if you've mentioned it before) Hopefully the tax estimates were high and there will be a bit more fun money headed your way,

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on December 10, 2017, 09:03:49 AM

The rental house is sold. :-) We sold it in September & cleared about $700K after taxes. We are still waiting for a final number after 2017 ends. But, that was the estimate our accountant gave us. I've set my FIRE date for June to give me the flexibility of making any last minute adjustments as needed, after taxes.
[/quote]

Nice!  That's a chunk of change.  Are you paying down your mortgage with it? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on December 10, 2017, 09:04:17 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 08, 2017, 04:31:33 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on December 08, 2017, 04:18:00 PM

State pensions and city pensions are all susceptible to being cut in a bankruptcy. City of Detroit employees had their pensions lowered due to the bankruptcy. The state of Illinois and the city of Chicago pensions may eventually be cut down in bankruptcy court.

True, the State has visited court a few times trying to cut the benefits paid under PERs.. Each time they have been sent home with their tail between their legs. I think you'r right though, one day they will prevail.

Fortunately for us the Oregon pension is pretty small and the much better protected UK pension is somewhat larger.

Sounds like if the directors tried raiding the pension funds in the UK they would get a one way ticket to prison! They can't do it anyway because the pension funds have to be in a separate financial company.

I'm a bit worried for states/municipalities and their pension plans regarding this new tax plan.  Seems like one intangible effect down might be to place more burden on states/localities.  Might give them more ammunition to go after pensions.  Municipal bonds might also be far more risky after all is said and done.

And my company certainly did not go bankrupt when they eliminated the pension plan for 'younger' workers ( you may be able to guess the company...big tech firm ).  In my opinion it was a blatant $$$ grab from employees to feed share buybacks and such.   As an investor, I do understand 'shareholder value'.  However, for big corporations, the behind the scenes aspects of 'shareholder value' can be extremely ugly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on December 10, 2017, 09:09:14 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 09, 2017, 11:42:49 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 07, 2017, 06:26:15 AM

Sounds like you've jumped right through the $3M point.  Waiting for someone to start a $3M->$4M thread.  I know some here are reluctant, taking to heart the MMM story.  How could anyone have more than $1M and not retire?

I'll take a stab at the question. I was waiting to buy a house, after we'd relocated for work. It took close to 4 years before we could afford a house (super HCOL, Bay Area). Now that we have the house, I'm waiting to determine the full impact on our taxes, and our overall budget. Our house is insanely expensive, and the property tax is as well. We thought we had a good sense of our take home, but with the new tax bill, it's unclear what we'll be left with. We have both state tax as well as property tax, and it's tough to get a sense of how this will play out at our income level.

Aside from the financial sense, we needed to sell our rental property to fully fund the stache that will now allow me to retire/go part-time. That house sold in September. There's also the emotional side. My husband has had some uneasiness about me leaving a high paying job without a few details sorted. We've been working through all of those. I'm planning to FIRE in June of 2018. My husband won't FIRE, both based on desire, and because we have sevenish more years until our kids are out of school & we can sell this house.

We discussed this above ( I'll forgive you for not reading the entire thread ) :-).  If I were single and/or married with no kids and healthy, then life would be a much different story.  However, we have two kids and one of us has a pre-existing chronic medical condition.   So that changes the outlook tremendously.  If healthcare would at least stabilize ( which it was at least starting to until..you know what happened ), then we could at least plan.  However, there are so many unknowns at so many levels right now that it makes planning extremely tough to do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 10, 2017, 09:16:16 AM

Quote from: Jill P on December 10, 2017, 09:03:49 AM

The rental house is sold. :-) We sold it in September & cleared about $700K after taxes. We are still waiting for a final number after 2017 ends. But, that was the estimate our accountant gave us. I've set my FIRE date for June to give me the flexibility of making any last minute adjustments as needed, after taxes.

Nice!  That's a chunk of change.  Are you paying down your mortgage with it?
[/quote]

No, we're keeping the money in a mix of investments vs paying it down. There is no tax incentive to pay down the mortgage, and the $700K is part of what will give me the flexibility to leave my job.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: AdrianC on December 10, 2017, 12:30:37 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 10, 2017, 09:09:14 AM

If I were single and/or married with no kids and healthy, then life would be a much different story.  However, we have two kids and one of us has a pre-existing chronic medical condition.   So that changes the outlook tremendously.  If healthcare would at least stabilize ( which it was at least starting to until..you know what happened ), then we could at least plan.  However, there are so many unknowns at so many levels right now that it makes planning extremely tough to do.

Yes. Or you can plan but need a large margin of safety built in.

Three kids here. We can't and don't want to try to live on $40k/year (implied by a stash of $1m).

3X that is more our speed :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on December 10, 2017, 06:37:48 PM

Quote from: AdrianC on December 10, 2017, 12:30:37 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 10, 2017, 09:09:14 AM

  However, we have two kids and one of us has a pre-existing chronic medical condition.   ...   However, there are so many unknowns at so many levels right now that it makes planning extremely tough to do.

Yes. Or you can plan but need a large margin of safety built in.

Three kids here. We can't and don't want to try to live on $40k/year (implied by a stash of $1m).

3X that is more our speed :-)

Ours too!

Our property taxes and health insurance (2 adults, 2 college aged kids) total about $40K a year.  It's ridiculous.  The insurance isn't even the best, but it's good for us and will cover any catastrophic illnesses or injuries without bankrupting us. 

 I view the property taxes as business expenses, of course, because the rentals we own are our business.    I'd love to live with less overhead, but we like the substantial stream of passive income from the rentals and don't see the benefit to selling them off to simplify.  It's not hard to change a faucet or what not.  We are completely hands on with the rentals, management and repairs.   That's our job, and it averages about 10 hours a month.    We have 4 sources of income and that gives us peace of mind. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: PhrugalPhan on December 10, 2017, 08:02:00 PM

Quote from: Jill P on December 09, 2017, 09:15:39 PM

Welcome, @PhrugalPhan .  It's great to see this thread really coming to life.  Anyway you want to count it up is fine with us.    I hope they don't start a thread with a higher number because it would split the group.

Thanks.  While I am not going to be "RE" (Retire Early) because I am already 55, I like to think I have done well considering I have never had an above average salary for this area (Northern VA - though for where I grew up this is very high salary), and I was about at $0 N.W. when I turned 36.  Since then I bought and paid off a house, survived 15 months unemployment, and a divorce.   I made a vow to myself not to be poor and take charge of my life back 20 years ago.  It hasn't been easy, but now I can survive most anything. 

If it wasn't for the pesky pension (a.k.a. golden handcuffs) I might retire in a year when the SO does.  Instead I will probably take extra vacations so we can enjoy her first years of her retirement before I head off into the sunset too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on December 10, 2017, 09:06:22 PM

My parents live on $30K USD per year ($40k AUD) + paid off house in a low cost area. They get by fine 90% of the time, and can afford a couple of short holidays each year, usually a small cruise every year and maybe a short getaway up the coast. They have dinner out with friends from time to time (certainly not every week), have gym memberships (with a pensioner discount) and spoil their grand children a little bit. They are happy enough but certainly wouldn’t mind having a little more financial means.

 Occassionally they face some financial stress like when my BIL wrote off their uninsured only car and had no money to pay for a replacement car for them. My parents managed to sell some of their stash to buy a new car, but I could see the financial angst it caused. My sister will prob pay back my parents for the smashed car one day, maybe she already has, I don’t know.

But I don’t want my parents life. I want to have greater financial freedom. I want to fly to Europe or Noth America for a couple of months at a time if I choose. I want to live in a more expensive location if I choose. Maybe one day I’ll want a fancier car, maybe I want to have season tickets for the theatre, or to drink at fancy city bars from time to time without worrying about the money.

So I have decided I want double the budget of my parents.... this then creates the need to budget for some taxation as well. I’ll try to structure my affairs to minimise taxes, but expect their to be some leakage.

The biggest difference in budget though is housing. I don’t want to live where my parents live, despite growing up there. After much debate on the topic DW and I still can’t bring ourselves to accepting living the rest of our lives in a small 1 BR apartment or studio in a desirable area. We want a little more space. Not clown house size, but maybe a place that will have a clown purchase price purely due to location. We are setting aside $750,000 USD ($1M AUD) for a home post FIRE.

So I add all our wishes and dreams up, and consider that as I am in my mid 40s and DW is not quite yet 40, it makes sense to us to work a little longer to give us the extra choices later in life.

So here we are on this thread and not already FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on December 11, 2017, 07:52:26 AM

Quote from: Jill P on December 10, 2017, 06:37:48 PM

Quote from: AdrianC on December 10, 2017, 12:30:37 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 10, 2017, 09:09:14 AM

  However, we have two kids and one of us has a pre-existing chronic medical condition.   ...   However, there are so many unknowns at so many levels right now that it makes planning extremely tough to do.

Yes. Or you can plan but need a large margin of safety built in.

Three kids here. We can't and don't want to try to live on $40k/year (implied by a stash of $1m).

3X that is more our speed :-)

Ours too!

Our property taxes and health insurance (2 adults, 2 college aged kids) total about $40K a year.  It's ridiculous.  The insurance isn't even the best, but it's good for us and will cover any catastrophic illnesses or injuries without bankrupting us. 

 I view the property taxes as business expenses, of course, because the rentals we own are our business.    I'd love to live with less overhead, but we like the substantial stream of passive income from the rentals and don't see the benefit to selling them off to simplify.  It's not hard to change a faucet or what not.  We are completely hands on with the rentals, management and repairs.   That's our job, and it averages about 10 hours a month.    We have 4 sources of income and that gives us peace of mind.

Exactly...and that is why we are on this thread continuing to save instead of being retired.  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: LessIsLess on December 11, 2017, 07:56:54 AM

The $3m sounds large, but I suspect reaching the milestone will provide little emotional boost.  On the contrary, it may even trigger a quiet emotional drop, when the "reachers" will sigh and utter these words "Is this it?  What a bummer!" 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on December 11, 2017, 10:08:29 AM

Quote from: LessIsLess on December 11, 2017, 07:56:54 AM

The $3m sounds large, but I suspect reaching the milestone will provide little emotional boost.  On the contrary, it may even trigger a quiet emotional drop, when the "reachers" will sigh and utter these words "Is this it?  What a bummer!"

FTFY

It's completely legitimate that some people have need to reach further.

Here's another perspective: We are FI, but DH's mom has Alzheimer's and lives with us, so DH still works. He loves his job. It has incredible benefits and he walks three tenths of a mile to work. We can't travel as we'd planned and he'd go stir crazy with not enough to do around here. He's four years from the top tier of a lovely Defined Benefit Pension, so why not just let things ride? Sure, you can call us "reachers" but there's no shame in making the best of a bad situation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 11, 2017, 10:54:37 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 11, 2017, 10:08:29 AM

Quote from: LessIsLess on December 11, 2017, 07:56:54 AM

The $3m sounds large, but I suspect reaching the milestone will provide little emotional boost.  On the contrary, it may even trigger a quiet emotional drop, when the "reachers" will sigh and utter these words "Is this it?  What a bummer!"

FTFY

It's completely legitimate that some people have need to reach further.

Here's another perspective: We are FI, but DH's mom has Alzheimer's and lives with us, so DH still works. He loves his job. It has incredible benefits and he walks three tenths of a mile to work. We can't travel as we'd planned and he'd go stir crazy with not enough to do around here. He's four years from the top tier of a lovely Defined Benefit Pension, so why not just let things ride? Sure, you can call us "reachers" but there's no shame in making the best of a bad situation.

Yes everyone's situation is unique and different.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on December 11, 2017, 11:40:41 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on December 11, 2017, 10:54:37 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 11, 2017, 10:08:29 AM

Quote from: LessIsLess on December 11, 2017, 07:56:54 AM

The $3m sounds large, but I suspect reaching the milestone will provide little emotional boost.  On the contrary, it may even trigger a quiet emotional drop, when the "reachers" will sigh and utter these words "Is this it?  What a bummer!"

FTFY

It's completely legitimate that some people have need to reach further.

Here's another perspective: We are FI, but DH's mom has Alzheimer's and lives with us, so DH still works. He loves his job. It has incredible benefits and he walks three tenths of a mile to work. We can't travel as we'd planned and he'd go stir crazy with not enough to do around here. He's four years from the top tier of a lovely Defined Benefit Pension, so why not just let things ride? Sure, you can call us "reachers" but there's no shame in making the best of a bad situation.

Yes everyone's situation is unique and different.

Thanks, David. It's great that you get it. LIL's comment felt unnecessarily condescending, hence my reply.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 11, 2017, 12:03:34 PM

Message boards lack the non-written emotional/verbal/auditory cues and it's possible that the poster wasn't intending to be condescending.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Laura33 on December 11, 2017, 12:56:15 PM

Quote from: LessIsLess on December 11, 2017, 07:56:54 AM

The $3m sounds large, but I suspect reaching the milestone will provide little emotional boost.  On the contrary, it may even trigger a quiet emotional drop, when the "reachers" will sigh and utter these words "Is this it?  What a bummer!"

Or, in my case:  "Is this it?  Whew!  Hallelujah!!"

Not because of a specific number on an investment statement.  Because of the massive relief when I realized I didn't need to work, ever again -- that I could walk any time I wanted to; that DH's job could implode, and I could still walk, and we wouldn't need to sell the house and uproot our lives and chase jobs across the country.  Because we've done all of that, more than once, and it was scary, and it sucked, and there's still part of me that can't believe my luck that all that worry and pressure is really gone for good.

IMO, the biggest luxury in life -- the biggest privilege -- is being able to figure out who you want to be without even considering how to support yourself doing it.  It is a privilege I never had growing up; heck, if you'd asked me back then, I'd have told you that kind of freedom existed only in the world of trust funds and silver spoons. 

I still don't know the answer, btw.  But the weight that has been lifted from my shoulders while I'm figuring it out is immense.  And the funny thing is that I didn't even know there was a giant weight on my chest until it was gone and I could suddenly breathe.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on December 11, 2017, 05:42:23 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on December 11, 2017, 12:03:34 PM

Message boards lack the non-written emotional/verbal/auditory cues and it's possible that the poster wasn't intending to be condescending.

Sure, it's possible.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 12, 2017, 05:49:33 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 11, 2017, 05:42:23 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on December 11, 2017, 12:03:34 PM

Message boards lack the non-written emotional/verbal/auditory cues and it's possible that the poster wasn't intending to be condescending.

Sure, it's possible.

Yes, its all interpretation especially if they don't come back and support their comments. One might interpret it as if they didn't have another challenge to keep them busy like disappointed in a way. And the obvious is , everyone's situation is different. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on December 14, 2017, 09:47:04 PM

Quote from: LessIsLess on December 11, 2017, 07:56:54 AM

The $3m sounds large, but I suspect reaching the milestone will provide little emotional boost.  On the contrary, it may even trigger a quiet emotional drop, when the "reachers" will sigh and utter these words "Is this it?  What a bummer!"

Oh, I don't think so.   I can't imagine anyone who's saved and planned and hit 3M and thinking "What a bummer!"  I do think that one becomes more relaxed about it.  The higher the number gets, though, the more it feels like another slice of cake.   It's good, and then better, and then really good and even better.    I'm still kind of surprised, it's so cool, to have a high NW.  Like, wow, that's  me, squarely in the multi-millionaire ranks no matter how I slice and dice my NW.

I just like to see my NW grow.  It's all good.  There's plenty of leeway now for little ups and downs.    I track my NW now, maybe more than ever thanks to Mint, and the bigger the number gets, the more I realize that we can most likely roll with any punches.  There's no real goal to hit a higher number anymore.  My plan is to just live my life the same way I always have- frugal as a mindset- and if it keeps going up, great.   And, it does keep going up, and I'm not doing anything different at all.   My focus isn't on growing NW, it's on being debt free.  Our debt/NW is less than 25%, maybe more like 20%, but I'm chipping away at it, and it's great to pay off a mortgage, or get one down below 100K, or whatever my current goal happens to be.    All of our debt is mortgage debt, in case you were wondering.  4 mortgages, with one 62Ker squarely pegged to be paid off with our surplus liquidity in the first quarter of 2018.   I paid off 2 in 2017.     If I snowball correctly and with discipline, it will take about 7 years.   The rentals will pay off in about 4 years.  I want to aggressively tackle the rental mortgages, and then will reevaluate for my home.  Our debt is about 50/50 rentals and the house. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on December 27, 2017, 09:42:59 PM

Where the hell y'all been?  Must have been out spending some of that money.  Not one post since 12-14-2018.  Me I've been moving some stuff around.  Been buying VBTLX ans selling some stock funds like VINIX that are up like 25%.  I was fully invested all year and finally getting some bond exposure.  I've also bought some individual stocks that have been dogs.  Mostly GE and AT&T.  GE I bought again today at blood in the street level.  AT&T has already added a 10% increase in price since buying a month ago. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 27, 2017, 10:24:56 PM

I got banned from the forum for a month.  Many times I wanted to post, but I stuck as a guest and now, as a true stealth wealth devotee, I'm thinking staying a guest is probably OK.  We had a nice Christmas and look forward to this tax gift in 2018 - my paychecks will be boosted in Feb by the tax cut and then again in March by SS withholding tax being paid in full.  If this is how the US is going to be, Mustachianism is going to be a tough sell.  I enjoy good health and HDHP benefits ($1500 deposit into my HSA on Jan 1), max out with tax deferred contributions (6,900 total) - and I'll just keep doing that for the next 5 - 10 years.  If this favorable income tax treatment is reversed or health insurance market stabilizes, maybe I'll get more excited about retirement sub-55 yo, but right now it's a minefield!  I know I can navigate it for 10 years (55 - 65yo), but much more than that takes a leap of faith.

I'll probably die with way too much money, but I also enjoy sleeping with plenty of blankets in the cold as opposed to stretching them over me and hoping to sleep at all.  And I also have my kids that I want to enjoy sharing the bounty with (responsibly).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on December 28, 2017, 07:15:34 AM

Glad you're back from the ban.  We've had a banner year no doubt.  I've taken some profits and reduced risk a bit.  I'm close to 20 percent bonds now.  I'm also likely to die with too much money, probably going to be a common occurrence of the members on this thread.   Unless I just get totally fed up one day I'm more likely extending FIRE to 2020.  I turn 50 in 2018, I'm not working past 2023 at 55 since that's offical retirement time with my company and there are benefits awarded upon that date.  With 6 weeks vacation and a week of paid personal time, I'll get by for now.   Good luck in 2018 to you all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on December 28, 2017, 08:21:42 AM

I just figured that people were waiting for the month and year to end. I expect we'll pick up again soon, with new members added to the fold.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: AdrianC on December 29, 2017, 09:18:50 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 27, 2017, 09:42:59 PM

Where the hell y'all been?  Must have been out spending some of that money.

Nah! We've been counting it...

https://youtu.be/pneBKFjxInQ

It's been a good year. NW up 20%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on December 29, 2017, 01:45:14 PM

Up 18% for 2017...... despite property prices dropping 5% in the 2nd half of the year. I expect another 5% to come off H1 2018, before the market starts to thaw a little. Hopefully stocks will continue to perform.

Looking forward to passing $3M AUD in 2018..... yes it’s only 2.3M USD, but still a nice round number to shoot for nine the less (before June maybe 🤞).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: wannabe-stache on January 02, 2018, 01:40:16 PM

i wasn't tracking NW until May 2017 and it's up an unreal amount in that time frame.  started at $2.1M, ended the year at $2.8M.

With some year end bonus payments expected this month, at this pace (putting aside market volatility) i would bet anything we're at $3.0M by mid Feb if not sooner. it's unreal how it grows even from day to day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on January 02, 2018, 02:21:46 PM

Ended the year at 2.2M total..including paid-off house.  1.9M in investable assets.  Some big gains in the stock trading account helped accelerate what was already a great year.  Not too shabby!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on January 02, 2018, 07:35:02 PM

We're up 340K for the year and 1.9M invested, also made $1500 in crypto, sold last week.  Had more fun there than the 340k

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: wannabe-stache on January 10, 2018, 03:13:18 PM

One of the interesting things i have noticed as we have approached the $3M mark: what really is a lot of $ doesn't seem like it is.

I am referring to the fact that i open personal capital, see that our net worth is $2.904M and think "wow we are so close".  In reality, we are $96,000 shy of $3M.  $96K!

That's a lot of money in absolute terms.  At least to me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on January 10, 2018, 03:43:56 PM

Wife and I discussed it last night.  We're 1.91M according to Mint.  I made the comment of only being 90k from 2M.  Shouldn't be but a few months now to another million I said.  Like it's a small thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Melisande on January 10, 2018, 07:30:58 PM

Just did a quarterly check on the good ol’ net worth and it looks like we are now in the 2k-3k race. Total net worth now comes to $2,228,000 with most of that in investments & cash — only $225,000 in home equity.

I told my husband the good news. His reaction? So, I can retire now? Well, yeah, I said. But he was just joking. He wants to keep working. So, it looks like we’ll be at $3k at some point not too far down the line.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 10, 2018, 11:46:48 PM

Quote from: Melisande on January 10, 2018, 07:30:58 PM

Just did a quarterly check on the good ol’ net worth and it looks like we are now in the 2k-3k race. Total net worth now comes to $x with most of that in investments & cash — only $225,000 in home equity.

I told my husband the good news. His reaction? So, I can retire now? Well, yeah, I said. But he was just joking. He wants to keep working. So, it looks like we’ll be at $3k at some point not too far down the line.

Why are rich people so dumb?  'k' is, and always has been since 'Roman' times = 1,000.  But yes, you have lots of money.  Looks like there is a little cornfusion on how to invest and what risk tells you is optimal - but we all live for the day and life is good.

[OMG why am I posting and telling people my opinion?  If I don't respond going forward, I've probably been banned by ARS again]

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on January 11, 2018, 12:02:28 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 10, 2018, 11:46:48 PM

Quote from: Melisande on January 10, 2018, 07:30:58 PM

Just did a quarterly check on the good ol’ net worth and it looks like we are now in the 2k-3k race. Total net worth now comes to $x with most of that in investments & cash — only $225,000 in home equity.

I told my husband the good news. His reaction? So, I can retire now? Well, yeah, I said. But he was just joking. He wants to keep working. So, it looks like we’ll be at $3k at some point not too far down the line.

Why are rich people so dumb?  'k' is, and always has been since 'Roman' times = 1,000.  But yes, you have lots of money.  Looks like there is a little cornfusion on how to invest and what risk tells you is optimal - but we all live for the day and life is good.

[OMG why am I posting and telling people my opinion?  If I don't respond going forward, I've probably been banned by ARS again]

Target on your back EV.. They way I look at it is..I can afford to be dumb.. In fact the richer I get the dumber I become..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 11, 2018, 12:21:50 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 11, 2018, 12:02:28 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 10, 2018, 11:46:48 PM

Quote from: Melisande on January 10, 2018, 07:30:58 PM

Just did a quarterly check on the good ol’ net worth and it looks like we are now in the 2k-3k race. Total net worth now comes to $x with most of that in investments & cash — only $225,000 in home equity.

I told my husband the good news. His reaction? So, I can retire now? Well, yeah, I said. But he was just joking. He wants to keep working. So, it looks like we’ll be at $3k at some point not too far down the line.

Why are rich people so dumb?  'k' is, and always has been since 'Roman' times = 1,000.  But yes, you have lots of money.  Looks like there is a little cornfusion on how to invest and what risk tells you is optimal - but we all live for the day and life is good.

[OMG why am I posting and telling people my opinion?  If I don't respond going forward, I've probably been banned by ARS again]

Target on your back EV.. They way I look at it is..I can afford to be dumb.. In fact the richer I get the dumber I become..:)

Yup, even when I'm banned permanently from the forum for not being whatever Mustachianism means, I'll still be FI beyond my wildest dreams - I just will have to take it over to many of the other fora that are out there.  Reddit has a pretty cool system.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Melisande on January 11, 2018, 04:14:08 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 10, 2018, 11:46:48 PM

Quote from: Melisande on January 10, 2018, 07:30:58 PM

Just did a quarterly check on the good ol’ net worth and it looks like we are now in the 2k-3k race. Total net worth now comes to $x with most of that in investments & cash — only $225,000 in home equity.

I told my husband the good news. His reaction? So, I can retire now? Well, yeah, I said. But he was just joking. He wants to keep working. So, it looks like we’ll be at $3k at some point not too far down the line.

Why are rich people so dumb?  'k' is, and always has been since 'Roman' times = 1,000.  But yes, you have lots of money.  Looks like there is a little cornfusion on how to invest and what risk tells you is optimal - but we all live for the day and life is good.

[OMG why am I posting and telling people my opinion?  If I don't respond going forward, I've probably been banned by ARS again]

Hey, I know what K means and we’re not dumb. Just an honest screw-up. Posting too late and distracted. Also, had just calculated something using K’s, so stuck in my mind.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2018, 04:30:29 AM

Quote from: Melisande on January 11, 2018, 04:14:08 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 10, 2018, 11:46:48 PM

Quote from: Melisande on January 10, 2018, 07:30:58 PM

Just did a quarterly check on the good ol’ net worth and it looks like we are now in the 2k-3k race. Total net worth now comes to $x with most of that in investments & cash — only $225,000 in home equity.

I told my husband the good news. His reaction? So, I can retire now? Well, yeah, I said. But he was just joking. He wants to keep working. So, it looks like we’ll be at $3k at some point not too far down the line.

Why are rich people so dumb?  'k' is, and always has been since 'Roman' times = 1,000.  But yes, you have lots of money.  Looks like there is a little cornfusion on how to invest and what risk tells you is optimal - but we all live for the day and life is good.

[OMG why am I posting and telling people my opinion?  If I don't respond going forward, I've probably been banned by ARS again]

Hey, I know what K means and we’re not dumb. Just an honest screw-up. Posting too late and distracted. Also, had just calculated something using K’s, so stuck in my mind.

Had EV2020 tossed an "lol" or a couple of emojis in, it might have been more obvious that it was a joke. Nobody in this club is dumb. It's a rule. 😄

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2018, 04:36:31 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on January 10, 2018, 03:13:18 PM

One of the interesting things i have noticed as we have approached the $3M mark: what really is a lot of $ doesn't seem like it is.

I am referring to the fact that i open personal capital, see that our net worth is $2.904M and think "wow we are so close".  In reality, we are $96,000 shy of $3M.  $96K!

That's a lot of money in absolute terms.  At least to me.

Damn straight. My first career job paid the princely (To me. At the time. A long, long time ago...) sum of $13k per year. Now, our investments can make that in a month! This shit really, really does work! Amazing!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on January 11, 2018, 06:16:03 AM

[/quote]
Had EV2020 tossed an "lol" or a couple of emojis in, it might have been more obvious that it was a joke. Nobody in this club is dumb. It's a rule. 😄
[/quote]

You don't know this dumb Cajun.  I've always been dumb, earlier in life I'd convinced myself I was smart.  Now that I'm older, I realize I fooled myself.  The formula for getting rich slowly is an easy one.  Smart people can get rich quick.  For those like me, you figure out a simple plan and stick to it for decades.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: AdrianC on January 11, 2018, 08:44:24 AM

Quote from: Melisande on January 11, 2018, 04:14:08 AM

Hey, I know what K means and we’re not dumb. Just an honest screw-up. Posting too late and distracted. Also, had just calculated something using K’s, so stuck in my mind.

I thought you were just being coy. Congrats.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 11, 2018, 11:50:27 AM

I'm lumping myself into the dumb and rich category, wasn't singling anyone out!  Also, acting dumb can be an awfully effective strategy - it got a whole lot more chatter than if you'd used M's.

I also wondered if you were being 'modest' / humble.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on January 11, 2018, 12:23:20 PM

Ms are grossly overused in this forum anyways...... MMM this, MMM that...

 but if you had just finished writing something with 3 Ks instead of 3 Ms we might not only have EV2020 facing censorship.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on January 11, 2018, 05:48:14 PM

Here we are millionaires arguing K and M's.  I bet we all had days we sweated the utility bill or rent.  Seems so irrelevant now.  I'm hanging out at the New Orleans yacht club.   Rich people shit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2018, 10:09:36 PM

After all these comments about how much everyone's accounts are up of late, I decided to pay a little attention to our account balances today. Our investment accounts grew by more than DH grossed in 2017, and we did not add any new money to them. The new money went into DH's 401k, which also did quite nicely. Crazy good mustachian fun!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on January 11, 2018, 11:43:58 PM

As of the close today..

Investments $2,003,400

Pensions $504,000

Paid off house approx $400,000

I think by any measure we are in this pool, at least for now..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on January 12, 2018, 12:04:20 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 27, 2017, 09:42:59 PM

Where the hell y'all been?  Must have been out spending some of that money.  Not one post since 12-14-2018.  Me I've been moving some stuff around.  Been buying VBTLX ans selling some stock funds like VINIX that are up like 25%.  I was fully invested all year and finally getting some bond exposure.  I've also bought some individual stocks that have been dogs.  Mostly GE and AT&T.  GE I bought again today at blood in the street level.  AT&T has already added a 10% increase in price since buying a month ago.

Yup!  Out spending some of that money and being with the ones we love.  Our family spent the holidays together in Europe.  It was one of the best Christmases and New Years we've ever had.  A real change of pace.  We want to build memories, and this was a home run.  The parents (me/DH) came home and the kids are still there, getting themselves around with no parental help or funds, finding their way to hostels, etc. 

Today is the first day I had a chance to peek at the thread.  I'm glad to see so many new posts.  I also took a look at Mint, for my 2018.  My updates are very outdated, and things are more rosy than it shows.  Some passwords have changed, a few accounts were never added, etc.  It's a good tool for general tracking.  FWIW, my AT&T stock is one of the bigger lugs in my stock portfolio.   Glad it worked for you with 10% up.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on January 12, 2018, 08:15:44 AM

Hey Jill P.  Glad you had such wonderful family time.  That's really what it's all for right?  Yep, you're right AT&T as well as GE were pretty bad in 2017.  I'd not owned them till December at the very bottom.   They are both up nicely for me now.  I did go to about 15% in VBTLX.  I've never owned bond's or bond funds in my life.  That's where I'm losing money.  JL Collins says it helps smooth the ride, we will see.  Even with my dumb move into some bonds we are still up 20k for the year.  Not sure how much further the market can push, we'll enjoy it while it does.  Glad to see ya back.  Happy Mardi Gras.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: farmecologist on January 12, 2018, 11:20:50 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 12, 2018, 08:15:44 AM

Hey Jill P.  Glad you had such wonderful family time.  That's really what it's all for right?  Yep, you're right AT&T as well as GE were pretty bad in 2017.  I'd not owned them till December at the very bottom.   They are both up nicely for me now.  I did go to about 15% in VBTLX.  I've never owned bond's or bond funds in my life.  That's where I'm losing money.  JL Collins says it helps smooth the ride, we will see.  Even with my dumb move into some bonds we are still up 20k for the year.  Not sure how much further the market can push, we'll enjoy it while it does.  Glad to see ya back.  Happy Mardi Gras.

Interesting about VBTLX.  I just cashed out some very old mutual funds that I've had for years.  Thought it was 'time'.  Plan is to move the proceeds to our taxable brokerage account where we already have a sizeable balance due to some successful 'side gig' stock trading.  I'm struggling a bit on what to do with these funds.  I'm sure much of them will end up back in equities at some point though..however, not 100%. 


 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: PhrugalPhan on January 13, 2018, 08:06:17 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 11, 2018, 11:43:58 PM

As of the close today..

Investments $2,003,400

Pensions $504,000

Paid off house approx $400,000

I think by any measure we are in this pool, at least for now..:)

As of close yesterday my GF has her TSP over $1 Mil

My investments are just under $900,000

And our two pensions combined are worth over $1 Mil as well

Paid off house approx. $350,000

The day I can walk out with pension in hand can't come soon enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Car Jack on January 13, 2018, 03:05:08 PM

With the runup Friday and my adds to taxable, I clicked over $2.3M in investments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on January 13, 2018, 09:42:23 PM

I stayed up late last night doing math.   After I did the math, I realized I've got to come up with a better plan.
 
 I ran some snow ball numbers... if it takes us 8 years to pay off the remaining 600K+ in debt by snowballing 4 remaining loans at an 8K payment per month, I'll still be paying almost $100K in interest over those 8 years.   The interest rate on my real estate property loans is costing me $22K in the next 12 months.  $22K wasted in 2018!  Sacrilege!! 

I've got to face this challenge head on.  I woke up and sent a $5K payment to one of the loans.   I'm waiting for a big check to arrive, and I have earmarked a chunk of change to the debt reduction.  That will speed up the snowball and I'm going to run the numbers again, just as soon as I know the actual figure.   I am sick and tired of paying the banks my hard earned money. 
Disclaimer:  I know there are differing opinions about paying off mortgages vs. stock portfolio investments.  I listen closely to the reasoning on both sides.  Our 4 loans are not all low interest fixed, so I've got more incentive.  Since most of our wealth is from/in real estate, I'm in the "pay off the mortgage, don't put it in the stock market" camp. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on January 13, 2018, 11:53:42 PM

Quote from: Jill P on January 13, 2018, 09:42:23 PM

I stayed up late last night doing math.   After I did the math, I realized I've got to come up with a better plan.
 
 I ran some snow ball numbers... if it takes us 8 years to pay off the remaining 600K+ in debt by snowballing 4 remaining loans at an 8K payment per month, I'll still be paying almost $100K in interest over those 8 years.   The interest rate on my real estate property loans is costing me $22K in the next 12 months.  $22K wasted in 2018!  Sacrilege!! 

I've got to face this challenge head on.  I woke up and sent a $5K payment to one of the loans.   I'm waiting for a big check to arrive, and I have earmarked a chunk of change to the debt reduction.  That will speed up the snowball and I'm going to run the numbers again, just as soon as I know the actual figure.   I am sick and tired of paying the banks my hard earned money. 
Disclaimer:  I know there are differing opinions about paying off mortgages vs. stock portfolio investments.  I listen closely to the reasoning on both sides.  Our 4 loans are not all low interest fixed, so I've got more incentive.  Since most of our wealth is from/in real estate, I'm in the "pay off the mortgage, don't put it in the stock market" camp.

There are mathematical equations which state that with current low interest mortage debt you are better off paying the minimum and investing the difference.   Great theory.  Those of us who are older faced much higher interest rates on our mortgages.   My mortgage was financed at 8.5% fixed.  Early payments made sense.  Whatever the current blend of which school of thought yields the most, one fact remains.  We have NW over 2 million on this thread.  Something worked.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: PhrugalPhan on January 14, 2018, 07:33:57 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 13, 2018, 11:53:42 PM

There are mathematical equations which state that with current low interest mortgage debt you are better off paying the minimum and investing the difference.   Great theory.  Those of us who are older faced much higher interest rates on our mortgages.   My mortgage was financed at 8.5% fixed.  Early payments made sense.  Whatever the current blend of which school of thought yields the most, one fact remains.  We have NW over 2 million on this thread.  Something worked.

Exactly.  I split the difference with my investments / payments as I had 6.75% fixed, and those extra principle payments from 2003-08 didn't melt away when the market went south 08-09 like my investments did.  For me being mortgage free since 2011 has been fabulous.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: honeyfill on January 26, 2018, 03:09:33 PM

Good news, I broke the 2.5M barrier this month.   Bad news , the kitchen remodel is costing more than I thought and I  will drop back below 2.5M.  Since I'll still be  worth more than I was Jan 1, You might say I got the kitchen for free. (Just kidding, but at least I'm taking some money off the table just in case the market tanks!)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: dogboyslim on January 26, 2018, 03:27:35 PM

$83k up in January, $324k increase last year.  Both of these numbers exclude any contributions on my part.  I still fear the phrase what goes up, must come down.

We are just over 2 if I include property.

Invested Assets 1.77, Home 1: 380k, Home 2: 450k: Home Debt: 380k = 2.22 M.  We are in the middle of moving from home 1 to home 2 due to a relocation to a more costly area.  Once that happens, we will drop 20k of home debt and put the rest of the equity into invested assets and then pay off the mortgage over time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: bluebelle on January 26, 2018, 04:48:24 PM

I'm having a hard time deciding if I belong in this group....debated posting for a while now, written and deleted a few posts....but what the heck, you sound like my peeps....stealth wealth, and a desire to have a nice buffer, live conservatively but still have some luxuries.

I've been sitting here trying to not laugh out loud with the absurdity of saying we ONLY have 1.73M in investible assets, so I don't yet belong in this group.....but if I include DH DB pension, and do back of the napkin math of the commuted value of that pension, we're "allowed" in this group.  Add in the home value in our ridiculous market, we actually surpass it.  But I don't count our home value because our retirement plan is to swap this house for a lakefront home and hike and fish to our hearts content.  We expect to break even between the two homes - it was a conscious decision to do so, and not downsize.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on January 26, 2018, 06:13:52 PM

Quote from: bluebelle on January 26, 2018, 04:48:24 PM

I'm having a hard time deciding if I belong in this group....debated posting for a while now, written and deleted a few posts....but what the heck, you sound like my peeps....stealth wealth, and a desire to have a nice buffer, live conservatively but still have some luxuries.

I've been sitting here trying to not laugh out loud with the absurdity of saying we ONLY have 1.73M in investible assets, so I don't yet belong in this group.....but if I include DH DB pension, and do back of the napkin math of the commuted value of that pension, we're "allowed" in this group.  Add in the home value in our ridiculous market, we actually surpass it.  But I don't count our home value because our retirement plan is to swap this house for a lakefront home and hike and fish to our hearts content.  We expect to break even between the two homes - it was a conscious decision to do so, and not downsize.

I wrestled with that too.. I didn't have to wrestle long though...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on January 26, 2018, 07:55:45 PM

Ha! I just checked balances on our two main accounts. Gulp. $1.2M! Paid-for primary home is worth $1.4M, sez Zillow, which I know from recent comps to be low. I think I'll stop looking now. If I check any more balances, I'm going to find myself pushed right out of this nice club.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on January 27, 2018, 05:30:53 AM

Only $31K to go to 2000K.  Going to keep pushing.  Took a week long vacation and spent a little money.   Felt good spreading it around some.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on January 27, 2018, 09:16:51 AM

At this point, and whilst you’re still working, spending a little cash on a weeks vacation won’t even be felt at the bank, but will make a big difference as to how you feel about fronting up to the office a little longer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Koogie on January 27, 2018, 12:57:45 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 27, 2018, 09:16:51 AM

At this point, and whilst you’re still working, spending a little cash on a weeks vacation won’t even be felt at the bank, but will make a big difference as to how you feel about fronting up to the office a little longer.

+1

we took 9 weeks vacation last year.  gonna try and ramp it up to 12 this year (quite a few might be staycations).    it makes semi-retirement bearable and even enjoyable.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Exflyboy on January 27, 2018, 01:26:44 PM

I can testify that learning to spend after decades of "saving everything" can be quite the challenge.

We did 8 weeks on the road travelling through SE Asia in 2016 and probably spent $5k or so.. I just had to clench my teeth and type in my CC numbers..

Of course the money is not even measurable compared to our net worth, but you have to do it a few times to feel comfortable.

This year we are going to Poland, Slovenia and Croatia for 6 weeks or so..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: AdrianC on January 27, 2018, 06:13:30 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 26, 2018, 07:55:45 PM

I think I'll stop looking now. If I check any more balances, I'm going to find myself pushed right out of this nice club.

I took the club name to be “Race from $2M to $3M+”.

If so you’re safe. It’s been a crazy year already.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 27, 2018, 06:16:01 PM

We are past $3M with the crazy market, but plan to invest a bunch in a remodel, which may drop our cash flow, but positively increase our house value. So . . . I'll keep coming back & consider this my "home". I have no idea how property values in the bay area will continue to grow/drop/stabilize. After we pay for this remodel, we will do other facepunch worthy things like potentially buying a rental property in Hawaii. So, there's that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 27, 2018, 10:31:04 PM

Alright, we have lots of contenders - who's going to start the 'Race from $3M to $4M' thread?  The nice thing about finance is that doubling means you go from 1M to 2M in the same time as 2M to 4M, so getting from 2M to 3M is relatively quick in a rising market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: CoffeeR on January 28, 2018, 01:46:04 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 27, 2018, 10:31:04 PM

Alright, we have lots of contenders - who's going to start the 'Race from $3M to $4M' thread?  The nice thing about finance is that doubling means you go from 1M to 2M in the same time as 2M to 4M, so getting from 2M to 3M is relatively quick in a rising market.

Better would be to change the title of this thread to to "Race from $2M to $3M+".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on January 28, 2018, 05:52:16 AM

Bluerunner made the 2 to 4 thread.   Should have made the 3 to 4.  We've got the 2 to 3. Maybe we just start counting by 2s from here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on January 28, 2018, 08:10:19 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 27, 2018, 10:31:04 PM

Alright, we have lots of contenders - who's going to start the 'Race from $3M to $4M' thread?  The nice thing about finance is that doubling means you go from 1M to 2M in the same time as 2M to 4M, so getting from 2M to 3M is relatively quick in a rising market.

I have a sneaking suspicion that my 3rd will take a lot longer than the 2nd, even if I kept working.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on January 28, 2018, 10:08:23 AM

Quote from: CoffeeR on January 28, 2018, 01:46:04 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 27, 2018, 10:31:04 PM

Alright, we have lots of contenders - who's going to start the 'Race from $3M to $4M' thread?  The nice thing about finance is that doubling means you go from 1M to 2M in the same time as 2M to 4M, so getting from 2M to 3M is relatively quick in a rising market.

Better would be to change the title of this thread to to "Race from $2M to $3M+".

I agree.  Just add the plus sign and be done with it.  Does the OP agree?

 I'm not sure why another, bigger race thread was started.  Seeing the new posters join this thread is amazing.  Those are the posts I enjoy reading.   This thread has taken off recently.   We are examples of success.  I like the discussions about who's making what moves, such as paying off houses, buying in Hawaii, where to put the investments now.  I hope that the members of this thread can provide great advise to those who aspire to be here, rather than compete for an eve higher finish line.   Splitting the thread would dilute the discussions.   I'm not excited about hanging out in ever bigger threads.   As the guys say, E-peen comparisons aren't needed.   We're here, at the finish line, if we're in this thread.   Any 'stache over 2M is enough, and the journey for financial independence can be considered achieved. 

IMO, We're not racing any more, more like sauntering along.  Many of us here have enjoyed 20-30 years of financial growth, and are exactly where the young Mustachians will end up in the same time frame.  The frugal habits of a lifetime have come to fruition, and the money just makes itself.   Isn't that the whole point of being a Mustachian?   My NW has doubled in the past 10 years.  It's likely to keep rising, since my patterns aren't changing.   I'm older, wiser, and less risk adverse (not that I ever was particularly risk adverse).  A couple of easy moves, like moving chess pieces on the chess board, increased my monthly passive cash flow by $2500.  A couple more moves, and I reduced my outflow by over $3K a month.  I paid off a bunch of debt that I mentioned upthread. That's a net positive of $5500 a month.  I was broke 25 years ago, thus, living proof of Mustachian style success.   I hope my stories, our stories, are inspiring anyone dropping by to read these posts and wanting to join this race.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 28, 2018, 12:01:51 PM

Its clear that unless you have a huge salary that we really arn't doing anything to make more money.. its happening by itself at this point.

So i guess calling it a "race" is a bit nonsenical. Of course there are people for whom $2m or $3M really is not enough, but they have lifestyles that are beyond normal Mustashianism.

Assuming normal rates of return on the stock market (10% ish), then with a 100% stock portfolio we can expect to double our money in about 7 years.

So want another million $ and currently have $2m.. simply wait about 4 years and have a savings rate of zero. Of course, many of us are now FIRED and don't have 100% stocks, plus have some degree of negative savings rate so increases to the next milestone will vary.

I am also concerned at the enthusiasm shown over the rapid stock market rise. I could easily see at 20% pullback in the near future and possibly more. Thats not a problem.. just keep rebalancing or increase one stock asset allocation when the market tanks and everybody here will do very well... Just don't get married to these high numbers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 28, 2018, 10:53:11 PM

I certainly don’t expect to be wobbled by a correction. When I fire in 11-17 months my net worth will be split
 - Home.                      27% - not exposed to stock market (could always buy cheaper if needed)
 - investment property   20% - not exposed to stock market
  - indexed pension.       10% - not exposed to the stock market
 - Cash and fixed interest 10% - not exposed to stock market
 - Stocks.                       33%

So, a 20% correction in stocks will represent a 6% drop in my net worth. Yawn.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 29, 2018, 12:53:22 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 28, 2018, 10:53:11 PM

I certainly don’t expect to be wobbled by a correction. When I fire in 11-17 months my net worth will be split
 - Home.                      27% - not exposed to stock market (could always buy cheaper if needed)
 - investment property   20% - not exposed to stock market
  - indexed pension.       10% - not exposed to the stock market
 - Cash and fixed interest 10% - not exposed to stock market
 - Stocks.                       33%

So, a 20% correction in stocks will represent a 6% drop in my net worth. Yawn.

That's a great way to look at it! Our profile is similar to yours. This perspective is a great way to keep calm when the next slide occurs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Koogie on January 29, 2018, 07:18:27 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 28, 2018, 10:53:11 PM

I certainly don’t expect to be wobbled by a correction. When I fire in 11-17 months my net worth will be split
 - Home.                      27% - not exposed to stock market (could always buy cheaper if needed)
 - investment property   20% - not exposed to stock market
  - indexed pension.       10% - not exposed to the stock market
 - Cash and fixed interest 10% - not exposed to stock market
 - Stocks.                       33%

So, a 20% correction in stocks will represent a 6% drop in my net worth. Yawn.

Not debating your conclusions but do you really think your pension isn't exposed to the stock market ?   
This is a misconception many people have.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 29, 2018, 09:46:47 AM

Quote from: Koogie on January 29, 2018, 07:18:27 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 28, 2018, 10:53:11 PM

I certainly don’t expect to be wobbled by a correction. When I fire in 11-17 months my net worth will be split
 - Home.                      27% - not exposed to stock market (could always buy cheaper if needed)
 - investment property   20% - not exposed to stock market
  - indexed pension.       10% - not exposed to the stock market
 - Cash and fixed interest 10% - not exposed to stock market
 - Stocks.                       33%

So, a 20% correction in stocks will represent a 6% drop in my net worth. Yawn.

Not debating your conclusions but do you really think your pension isn't exposed to the stock market ?   
This is a misconception many people have.

I feel very comfortable with my Australian Federal Government Pension. Australia remains one of 10 or so countries with a AAA credit rating. My pension is far more secure than any other part of my stash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 29, 2018, 02:47:00 PM

The advantage of federal pensions, from a central government, is that they can be backed up by debt obligations. The debt obligations or treasuries are highly desired if we enter another recession.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Koogie on January 29, 2018, 04:55:10 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 29, 2018, 09:46:47 AM

I feel very comfortable with my Australian Federal Government Pension. Australia remains one of 10 or so countries with a AAA credit rating. My pension is far more secure than any other part of my stash.

The point was, what you said is factually incorrect. All pensions invest in equities. So, by definition they cannot be "not exposed to the stock market" as you said.

Whether they are secure or not is something else entirely.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 29, 2018, 07:15:34 PM

Quote from: Koogie on January 29, 2018, 04:55:10 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 29, 2018, 09:46:47 AM

I feel very comfortable with my Australian Federal Government Pension. Australia remains one of 10 or so countries with a AAA credit rating. My pension is far more secure than any other part of my stash.

The point was, what you said is factually incorrect. All pensions invest in equities. So, by definition they cannot be "not exposed to the stock market" as you said.

Whether they are secure or not is something else entirely.

I understand your point, but not really relevant to what I was saying.

My point was that a major stock market correction is not likely (extremely unlikely) to have any impact on the future cash flows I will enjoy from my pension and I will continue to sleep well at night.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FOBStash on January 30, 2018, 06:34:20 PM

So stoked to join this thread! Hoping to get to $2.5M as our major FIRE milestone and then $2.5M with a paid off house. Then we will assess going FIRE. We enjoy our jobs for now so no burning need to quit.

Still a ways out since we just hit $2M at the start of the year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 30, 2018, 08:28:02 PM

I guess I can sort of join this thread.
My invested assets and cash in bank account is about $1,635,000 plus about $385,000 of equity in my home, which combined kicks me just above $2 million.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on January 31, 2018, 11:17:32 AM

Welcome DaveAnnArbor and FOBstash!  Great to have you in the thread. 


So here's an interesting link to a bunch of interviews with Millionaires.  https://esimoney.com/millionaire-interview-37/

I haven't had time to read more than a handful of the stories, but what strikes me is the incredibly HUGE income that many of them have.   That said, I don't think they are MMM lifestyles, or some of the ones I've read about would have far more wealth.  Most of them have completely different profiles than mine.  I would consider my path to be more lower income, frugal savings, and high motivation from an early age.   Perhaps these are just your more run of the MILLionaires-- high income, high spending, yet good long term goals and planning that come to fruition.  The interview I just linked, #37, parallels my path in one way:  Real estate investments (he has 6), with $$ obtained from leveraging his personal residence.    I think he makes a valid point, also, that sometimes life gets in the way of our financial goals, and you have to sell something that would be better left alone.   Also, he points out the magic of time in fortune building. 

What do you think of these interviews?  Any comments or observations?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 31, 2018, 08:06:26 PM

I agree about the amount of time makes a huge difference in accumulating assets, although I guess the point of this website is that you can reduce that time drastically through ultra -frugality.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 01, 2018, 07:59:45 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 28, 2018, 12:01:51 PM

So i guess calling it a "race" is a bit nonsenical. Of course there are people for whom $2m or $3M really is not enough, but they have lifestyles that are beyond normal Mustashianism.

Or perhaps it's because of life circumstances.  Let's see....a child with a disability that means that an appropriate school costs $56k a year and takes the spouse's entire day because it's a long drive every day, so she can't work.....and another kid in private college because the parents believe in providing the best education they can....... 

I understand that the Boglehead way seems to be "Send the damn kid to community college until he can pay his own way through school because I want to retire and I don't like hip hop and those man buns and what the hell is it with all the tatoos......the kid wasn't even in the marines?".  It ain't everyone's way.  Some of us care about our kids and are willing to pay for them to have opportunities.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on February 01, 2018, 08:16:55 AM

I would say the Boglehead way is to send the kid to an expensive private college. Many on Bogleheads aspire to retire on many millions of dollars if not tens of millions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 01, 2018, 05:07:01 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on January 31, 2018, 11:17:32 AM

Welcome DaveAnnArbor and FOBstash!  Great to have you in the thread. 


So here's an interesting link to a bunch of interviews with Millionaires.  https://esimoney.com/millionaire-interview-37/

I haven't had time to read more than a handful of the stories, but what strikes me is the incredibly HUGE income that many of them have.   That said, I don't think they are MMM lifestyles, or some of the ones I've read about would have far more wealth.  Most of them have completely different profiles than mine.  I would consider my path to be more lower income, frugal savings, and high motivation from an early age.   Perhaps these are just your more run of the MILLionaires-- high income, high spending, yet good long term goals and planning that come to fruition.  The interview I just linked, #37, parallels my path in one way:  Real estate investments (he has 6), with $$ obtained from leveraging his personal residence.    I think he makes a valid point, also, that sometimes life gets in the way of our financial goals, and you have to sell something that would be better left alone.   Also, he points out the magic of time in fortune building. 

What do you think of these interviews?  Any comments or observations?

I have a hard time reading all the way through most of them.  I kind of see the demographics and think this is someone "not like me."  I think the higher incomes and the OK NW just doesn't inspire me like it could to others.  I guess I should maybe volunteer to be one of them to try to inspire others not like those.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 02, 2018, 10:20:09 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 30, 2018, 08:28:02 PM

I guess I can sort of join this thread.
My invested assets and cash in bank account is about $1,635,000 plus about $385,000 of equity in my home, which combined kicks me just above $2 million.

I totally count our primary house. We paid cash for it and it's now worth over $1.4M, so why not? There are other assets that I don't count (rental properties, defined benefit pension) mostly because I'm too lazy to look them up. This is definitely not a race, it's more like a game of horseshoes. But then, that doesn't sound like much of a gauntlet, does it?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on February 02, 2018, 10:58:02 AM

i know this is the wrong forum for this but happy to say that we're at the $2.93M mark and i just paid off the rest of our $48k mortgage.

should free up some cash to put into the market going forward.

it will be interesting to see what happens with said market, btw...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 06, 2018, 02:41:41 AM

So.... which camp are you in:

A. The bigger you are the harder you fall. Ie: this small blip in the market set you back a 6 figure sum which is more than 3 or 4% of you net worth; or

B. As you are wealthy and properly diversified this small blip cost you far less than the market movement, like maybe only 1%; or

C. You knew the top was in, shorted the market, made an absolute killing and grew your stash even to a more enviable number??

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 06, 2018, 03:12:26 AM

1.5 Tesla drop for me.. I think our investments are slightly under $2m.. but still have $0.5m in pension valuation and at a guess $0.4 or 0.5 in house.

Don't think the baliffs are showing up just yet..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on February 06, 2018, 07:02:40 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 06, 2018, 02:41:41 AM

So.... which camp are you in:

A. The bigger you are the harder you fall. Ie: this small blip in the market set you back a 6 figure sum which is more than 3 or 4% of you net worth; or

B. As you are wealthy and properly diversified this small blip cost you far less than the market movement, like maybe only 1%; or

C. You knew the top was in, shorted the market, made an absolute killing and grew your stash even to a more enviable number??

Somewhere between. I'd happened to pull a bunch out (not because of C, although I suspected, as many of us did) because we are planning to use cash for a remodel. I certainly am also down significantly in our main retirement account as well, so some of A & C.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on February 06, 2018, 07:09:36 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 06, 2018, 02:41:41 AM

So.... which camp are you in:

A. The bigger you are the harder you fall. Ie: this small blip in the market set you back a 6 figure sum which is more than 3 or 4% of you net worth; or

B. As you are wealthy and properly diversified this small blip cost you far less than the market movement, like maybe only 1%; or

C. You knew the top was in, shorted the market, made an absolute killing and grew your stash even to a more enviable number??

.

A and 0.01*C.  Almost got the peak when I sold stocks to finish off the house mortgage.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: honeyfill on February 06, 2018, 07:23:45 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 06, 2018, 02:41:41 AM

So.... which camp are you in:

A. The bigger you are the harder you fall. Ie: this small blip in the market set you back a 6 figure sum which is more than 3 or 4% of you net worth; or

B. As you are wealthy and properly diversified this small blip cost you far less than the market movement, like maybe only 1%; or

C. You knew the top was in, shorted the market, made an absolute killing and grew your stash even to a more enviable number??

Mostly A and a little bit of C.  I took out about 1/2 what I needed for the kitchen remodel a week ago but told my self to wait a couple of weeks to take out the rest.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 06, 2018, 08:00:18 AM

B.

A 50/50 asset allocation helps with reducing volatility.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on February 06, 2018, 08:47:00 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 06, 2018, 02:41:41 AM

So.... which camp are you in:

A. The bigger you are the harder you fall. Ie: this small blip in the market set you back a 6 figure sum which is more than 3 or 4% of you net worth; or

B. As you are wealthy and properly diversified this small blip cost you far less than the market movement, like maybe only 1%; or

C. You knew the top was in, shorted the market, made an absolute killing and grew your stash even to a more enviable number??

..hmm none of the above? 

I have to add a little story here.  I cashed out a large amount of old mutual funds from a previous employer to 'consolidate' them into my brokerage account.  Mostly so I can manage tax costs better.   I did this at what turned out to be very near the market high.  So I 'timed' the marked by Complete, dumb luck....but I'll take it! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 06, 2018, 09:21:21 AM

Thanks for the replies.

I was down about 1.4% NW at the close of Aus markets earlier today.

Made the call to stop buying stocks in December when the Aussie market had a massive run up, and to start paying down debt quicker. This was a decision to deleverage a little before FIRE next year.

If the market drops another 5% I will prob say screw conservatism, redraw the money off my loan, and buy more stocks at the cheaper price.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 06, 2018, 02:47:38 PM

Sort-of answer here: I am trustee/executor of my parent's estate. I'm in the process of consolidating some stuff. The very awful company cashed out all the stock in late December, in anticipation of finally following my instructions to move it to the very less awful company. When the transfer didn't happen (not really surprised) we missed the total run-up. Guess we're safely on the sidelines now. Accidental market timing, perhaps?

As for our own real numbers, meh, I haven't checked. We have a lot of cash sitting on the sidelines, so we could toss some in, but I think I'll wait until the Jim Cramer types are screaming that the end of the world is near before pulling the trigger. Oh, except that I don't watch Jim Cramer or any of the rest of them. Will somebody let me know when it's time, please?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 06, 2018, 06:06:47 PM

I'm in CAT A.  Lost about 100k.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 06, 2018, 08:30:48 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 06, 2018, 06:06:47 PM

I'm in CAT A.  Lost about 100k.

Sorry to hear that.

I guess when with the bulls occasionally one of the buggers will step on your foot. Sure this causes short term pain, but in the long run a bruised hoof is not going to stop you surging to your destination where you will graze on sweet pastures.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on February 07, 2018, 10:59:07 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 06, 2018, 02:41:41 AM

So.... which camp are you in:

A. The bigger you are the harder you fall. Ie: this small blip in the market set you back a 6 figure sum which is more than 3 or 4% of you net worth; or

B. As you are wealthy and properly diversified this small blip cost you far less than the market movement, like maybe only 1%; or

C. You knew the top was in, shorted the market, made an absolute killing and grew your stash even to a more enviable number??

D i suppose. young investor here, heavily exposed to equity mutual funds, lost a lot of $ on paper ($30K in one day - ouch!) and looking forward to putting more money to work for another 10-15 years according to the terms of my investment philosophy statement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 07, 2018, 08:31:51 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 06, 2018, 02:41:41 AM

So.... which camp are you in:

A. The bigger you are the harder you fall. Ie: this small blip in the market set you back a 6 figure sum which is more than 3 or 4% of you net worth; or

B. As you are wealthy and properly diversified this small blip cost you far less than the market movement, like maybe only 1%; or

C. You knew the top was in, shorted the market, made an absolute killing and grew your stash even to a more enviable number??

Another 'none of the above'.  Although I've been aware that the markets are freaking out as opposed to going straight up, I have only a vague idea (within 100k) of my net worth and even less idea what these gyrations have done to the portfolio.  I did check in on my son's 529 since those funds are coming closer to being tapped.  There's ~110k in a moderately aggressive 70/30 fund, so I might move to a more conservative 50/50 fund, but it's a small optimization in the whole scheme of things.  I still feel pretty good about my (thus far too conservative) AA, given that we have 'enough' and sufficient opportunity to make money in bond-like income.

Getting excited that long-bond income is finally on the rise though!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on February 08, 2018, 08:12:11 AM

Definitely an 'A', not that it makes any difference to me. Surprised more people on here aren't 'A's.

3-4% drop after a 25% rise in one year...no worries.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 08, 2018, 11:50:36 PM

Yeah, no worries, but now down more than $50K for the week 😳

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bwall on February 09, 2018, 10:30:57 AM

Just now found this thread and it's amazing. . . . I don't think anyone has used the term High Net Worth Individuals (HWNI) yet, but it applies to everyone with $1m in investible assets, not to mention $2m. Here is the definition per wiki:

High-net-worth individual (HNWI) is a term used by some segments of the financial services industry to designate persons whose investible assets (such as stocks and bonds) exceed a given amount. Typically, these individuals are defined as holding financial assets (excluding their primary residence) with a value greater than US$1 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-net-worth_individual

Here's another article talking about the growth and distribution of HWNI's.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/28/number-high-net-worth-individuals-hits-all-time-high-165-million/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 10, 2018, 04:50:23 AM

I  think High Net Worth Individual needs to be redefined.   I'd term that to be closer to 5 million.  If you have 1 million invested outside of home and pensions you have a nice pad, but in 2018 it's not high net worth.  It's bare bones living without extra income if retired.  Some here can do it.  If they do, they are very frugal.   I think you start to feel wealth at about 2.5 million invested, on up to about 5 million.   After 5 million your what I'd think of as rich and ready to take on the more risky investments of HNWI.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 10, 2018, 08:53:22 AM

$5M USD is a huge sum of money. In Australia it would put you in the top 1% based on Net Worth. I am not even talking investable assets.

Do you think that is the pass mark for HNWI in a wealthy developed country (top 1%)?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 10, 2018, 09:03:26 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 10, 2018, 08:53:22 AM

$5M USD is a huge sum of money. In Australia it would put you in the top 1% based on Net Worth. I am not even talking investable assets.

Do you think that is the pass mark for HNWI in a wealthy developed country (top 1%)?

If you're living on 1 million invested as a sole income stream, you're the typical millionaire next door.  There is very little flash living on 40k a year.  You're basically middle class but not having to work. (Mustacian)   At the 5 million invested level you can have flashy house, cars, vacations, parties...the things truly rich people do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 10, 2018, 11:29:27 AM

I believe $40k is under the poverty line for a family of 4.  If there is other sources of income (social security, pension, occasional bank robbery), then it's not a lot to get above the line.  But it ain't livin' high, that's for sure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 10, 2018, 12:01:55 PM

A few generalisations of course.

I.e do you have kids? Location?.. $40k in NYC won't go far but in rural Wyoming it would.

If you live in UK your healthcare costs would also be zero.

We live in Oregon on our 5.5 acres (2 adults) and with the house paid off we consistently spend around $30k/year. But we have probably skimped on insurance during the accumulation phase so we are now paying about $1500/year more to protect our stash from lawsuits.

Assume we have a couple of vacations at say $10k would put us right at $40k/year.. If we had to pay fell whack on our HC premiums that would add another $14k.

So $55k for living decent in FIRE for us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 10, 2018, 08:27:55 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 10, 2018, 12:01:55 PM

A few generalisations of course.

I.e do you have kids? Location?.. $40k in NYC won't go far but in rural Wyoming it would.

If you live in UK your healthcare costs would also be zero.

We live in Oregon on our 5.5 acres (2 adults) and with the house paid off we consistently spend around $30k/year. But we have probably skimped on insurance during the accumulation phase so we are now paying about $1500/year more to protect our stash from lawsuits.

Assume we have a couple of vacations at say $10k would put us right at $40k/year.. If we had to pay fell whack on our HC premiums that would add another $14k.

So $55k for living decent in FIRE for us.

So you over saved??

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 11, 2018, 12:16:30 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 10, 2018, 08:27:55 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 10, 2018, 12:01:55 PM

A few generalisations of course.

I.e do you have kids? Location?.. $40k in NYC won't go far but in rural Wyoming it would.

If you live in UK your healthcare costs would also be zero.

We live in Oregon on our 5.5 acres (2 adults) and with the house paid off we consistently spend around $30k/year. But we have probably skimped on insurance during the accumulation phase so we are now paying about $1500/year more to protect our stash from lawsuits.

Assume we have a couple of vacations at say $10k would put us right at $40k/year.. If we had to pay fell whack on our HC premiums that would add another $14k.

So $55k for living decent in FIRE for us.

So you over saved??

Yes at 4% our income could be about $115k/yr.. Prior to the correction at least.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bigchrisb on February 11, 2018, 03:13:00 AM

Category a for me. Down over 100k, or about 3%. Given I gained the same the month before, I'm not exactly losing sleep!

As for "high net worth" classifications, the cynic in me thinks it's a bracket thought up by the financial sharks (advisors, fund managers and hedge funds), not because it's a mark of independent wealth, but rather a target market.  I'd like to be collecting 2% on someone else's investable assets!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bwall on February 11, 2018, 09:40:21 AM

Quote from: bigchrisb on February 11, 2018, 03:13:00 AM

As for "high net worth" classifications, the cynic in me thinks it's a bracket thought up by the financial sharks (advisors, fund managers and hedge funds), not because it's a mark of independent wealth, but rather a target market.  I'd like to be collecting 2% on someone else's investable assets!

I believe your analysis to be accurate, not cynical. Giving a demographic a name helps in lots of ways. As you mention, financial advisors provided the definition for their own purposes, such as allowing actors across the industry to identify a 'whale' when they see one. However, the same classification also allows the 'marks' to know that they've been identified as such and then to react accordingly. By knowing better how scare the cohort you belong to is, it allows you to better understand the motivations of financial advisors you may encounter.

For example, a couple of months ago I was in Europe trying to open a business bank account. The gentleman I spoke with began the conversation by saying that they had strict requirements for new account holders, such as monthly fees of 60 EUR and minimum capital of 500,000 EUR. "Not a problem", I said. And, immediately the tone of the conversation changed significantly. I hung up the phone and it occurred to me that the banker doesn't get such phone calls often.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 11, 2018, 10:37:26 AM

Quote from: bigchrisb on February 11, 2018, 03:13:00 AM

Category a for me. Down over 100k, or about 3%. Given I gained the same the month before, I'm not exactly losing sleep!

As for "high net worth" classifications, the cynic in me thinks it's a bracket thought up by the financial sharks (advisors, fund managers and hedge funds), not because it's a mark of independent wealth, but rather a target market.  I'd like to be collecting 2% on someone else's investable assets!

So you have $3.3M?... Nice..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 11, 2018, 01:35:32 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 11, 2018, 10:37:26 AM

Quote from: bigchrisb on February 11, 2018, 03:13:00 AM

Category a for me. Down over 100k, or about 3%. Given I gained the same the month before, I'm not exactly losing sleep!

As for "high net worth" classifications, the cynic in me thinks it's a bracket thought up by the financial sharks (advisors, fund managers and hedge funds), not because it's a mark of independent wealth, but rather a target market.  I'd like to be collecting 2% on someone else's investable assets!

So you have $3.3M?... Nice..:)

Hmmm, I think those might be Aussie dollars. Still mighty nice, but they don't stretch quite as far as USD.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bigchrisb on February 11, 2018, 02:01:27 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 11, 2018, 01:35:32 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 11, 2018, 10:37:26 AM

Quote from: bigchrisb on February 11, 2018, 03:13:00 AM

Category a for me. Down over 100k, or about 3%. Given I gained the same the month before, I'm not exactly losing sleep!

As for "high net worth" classifications, the cynic in me thinks it's a bracket thought up by the financial sharks (advisors, fund managers and hedge funds), not because it's a mark of independent wealth, but rather a target market.  I'd like to be collecting 2% on someone else's investable assets!

So you have $3.3M?... Nice..:)

Hmmm, I think those might be Aussie dollars. Still mighty nice, but they don't stretch quite as far as USD.

Yep, Pacific Pesos. I don't convert as,
A) I save and spend in Aud, and
B) the exchange rate is quite volatile, having ranged between 1.1 and 0.7 usd in recent memory.
Current conversion puts me at about 2.5m in greenbacks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 11, 2018, 02:27:01 PM

Still a sizable stash.. Well done..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on February 11, 2018, 09:18:52 PM

Quote from: bigchrisb on February 11, 2018, 03:13:00 AM

As for "high net worth" classifications, the cynic in me thinks it's a bracket thought up by the financial sharks (advisors, fund managers and hedge funds), not because it's a mark of independent wealth, but rather a target market.  I'd like to be collecting 2% on someone else's investable assets!

'Accredited investor' is also a classification and is currently required by law for some investments such as PeerStreet, etc...

  https://info.peerstreet.com/glossary/accredited-investor/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 12, 2018, 01:24:43 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on February 11, 2018, 09:18:52 PM

Quote from: bigchrisb on February 11, 2018, 03:13:00 AM

As for "high net worth" classifications, the cynic in me thinks it's a bracket thought up by the financial sharks (advisors, fund managers and hedge funds), not because it's a mark of independent wealth, but rather a target market.  I'd like to be collecting 2% on someone else's investable assets!

'Accredited investor' is also a classification and is currently required by law for some investments such as PeerStreet, etc...

  https://info.peerstreet.com/glossary/accredited-investor/

I'd qualify by item number 2.  Doesn't mean much, I'm not qualified in any way to play with big boy investments.  I've got primal fear just buying some individual stocks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 12, 2018, 10:23:14 AM

Well folks, it’s a big pay day today 👀

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 12, 2018, 12:02:54 PM

Good.  I'm down over 100k.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 12, 2018, 12:16:33 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 12, 2018, 12:02:54 PM

Good.  I'm down over 100k.

Only about 1.0 Tesla's then..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 13, 2018, 04:14:32 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 12, 2018, 12:16:33 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 12, 2018, 12:02:54 PM

Good.  I'm down over 100k.

Only about 1.0 Tesla's then..:)

Sub 100k losses now.  Not Model X or P100D Model S.  Getting into Model 3 range.


😁

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on February 27, 2018, 10:04:53 AM

Quote from: bigchrisb on February 11, 2018, 03:13:00 AM

Category a for me. Down over 100k, or about 3%. Given I gained the same the month before, I'm not exactly losing sleep!

As for "high net worth" classifications, the cynic in me thinks it's a bracket thought up by the financial sharks (advisors, fund managers and hedge funds), not because it's a mark of independent wealth, but rather a target market.  I'd like to be collecting 2% on someone else's investable assets!

I agree.  It's like the old song "Would you walk away from a fool and his money?"  Once they know you've got some, you might as well paint a bulls-eye on your forehead.  I wanted to be a Chase Private Client, because at the time it allowed you to get the valuable 100,000 point Chase Sapphire Reserve credit card, even if you had a lot of recent credit cards open.  CPC allowed an override of policy restrictions.  The CPC query happened right AFTER we took our liquid cash and bought an investment property.  So our funds at Chase were shy of private client material, and they kept an eagle eye on our assets to make sure we surpassed the requirements within a couple of months.  Then they requested multiple meetings with the Investment Banker, whose goal was to get us to move our assets over to him for "management."  No thanks, I said.  We'll keep an eye on our own money, thanks anyway. 

As an aside, the Private Client status does give some perks, such as fee free ATMs world wide.  That's been handy on our international travels. 

Hope you all rebounded from the dip.  We're mostly in real estate, so I didn't even look to see what happened with my brokerage account.   I'm only sorry that I didn't have some spare cash to buy on the dip.   ExFlyBoy, are you back with us yet?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on February 27, 2018, 10:32:28 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 10, 2018, 04:50:23 AM

I  think High Net Worth Individual needs to be redefined.   I'd term that to be closer to 5 million.  If you have 1 million invested outside of home and pensions you have a nice pad, but in 2018 it's not high net worth.  It's bare bones living without extra income if retired.  Some here can do it.  If they do, they are very frugal.   I think you start to feel wealth at about 2.5 million invested, on up to about 5 million.   After 5 million your what I'd think of as rich and ready to take on the more risky investments of HNWI.

 Great point, Bateaux.  This is the shame of it... very few people (relative to the population) have 1 Million, yet, using the 4% rule/$40K a year, as a barometer, it still requires frugal living if you expect it to last a lifetime.  You'll have a hard time being in an Assisted Living facility on 40K a year.  And if both members of a couple make it that long, forget it on $40K.  But, hopefully the assets will be growing and keeping pace as one ages, so the 4% will meet the requirements.   

Here's my inner skeptic: I think the term HNW basically means to the financial world that this person might need a financial adviser or an investment banker.  As noted above, it's a marketing term. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: dogboyslim on February 27, 2018, 12:14:25 PM

This is the difference between looking at wealth and looking at income.  I feel its difficult to classify anyone with >$1 MM as anything BUT a high net worth individual.  You may or may not be living only off the assets, but just by sitting on our butts we can generate more income than 40% of the household population in the US.  I struggle with a concept that says this is the same as someone with no or zero net worth and a similar income.  They are in no way the same thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 28, 2018, 11:51:56 PM

I'm still waiting on the secret handshake of the HNW club.  So far I very much feel like an outsider.   It took us a long time to get here.   Maybe it was so gradual we didn't notice.

I'm looking at homes in Florida to retire to in the 200 to 300k range.  I remember that being so much money to me once.  We gained that much in NW in the last year.  I guess it's real.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 01, 2018, 12:30:18 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 28, 2018, 11:51:56 PM

I'm still waiting on the secret handshake of the HNW club.  So far I very much feel like an outsider.

Well, if it helps, I feel like Ted Cruz gave me a secret handshake (https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanellis/2017/12/04/ted-cruz-529-education-savings-amendment-to-tax-reform-is-a-big-win-for-families/#20760a106c45) now that I can use some of our burgeoning 529 funds for my daughter's private schooling in Texas.  Funds that have appreciated nicely since 2003 are able to be spent tax free up to 10k.  And I feel pretty good about spending them now before the market craps out!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 01, 2018, 12:36:18 AM

For some reason we can exchange this magic creation of numbers for real things.  I mean, we didn't have to trade hours for these dollars. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on March 01, 2018, 08:10:00 AM

The Ken Fisher ad that splashes across the top of Marketwatch for me uses $500k as their number.  I think it's just a number to fish out clients who want to feel like big shots being high net worth and using "their guy" to manage their weath.

"Private Client" was mentioned and I know Fidelity gives you this designation if your account is over $1M.  With this, you get a Private Client manager which means that when you call Fidelity for a generic question, you have to tell them "no, I don't want to be transferred to my private client manager because it'll land in his voicemail and I won't hear for 3 days what the answer to my simple question is".  On the good side, it means that you get turbo tax for free.  There's a trick to get not only online but downloaded versions.  I did it this year just to see if I could get it.  I was able to.

I work in a 3 building business complex.  One building is chock full of Wealth Management firms.  The question "Where are all the customers' yachts?" comes to mind.  In the parking lot, I see on my lunchtime walk every day: Maserati Quattroporte, Maserati Ghibli, BMW i8, Audi S5, Porsche 911 turbo S, Mercedes E300 4 matic, Jaguar sedan (I forgot what they're called....something R).  Makes me chuckle that they're "managing" to turn the wealth of their clients into their own to waste on big dollar cars (and I'm a car guy).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: dogboyslim on March 01, 2018, 08:30:09 AM

I give these guys more of a pass on the high dollar cars.  Don't think about this group, think about normal people.  Are they more going to trust giving all their money to the person driving the early 2000's Honda civic, or the person driving the known expensive car?

I think Lexus/Audi A6 is sufficient for that purpose though, so I don't give a complete pass.  Still, I want a DB9.  I will NEVER buy one, but I want one!

Also, Vanguard calls us Flagship clients.  If I get to $5M, I get to be a Flagship Select Client!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 01, 2018, 08:30:46 AM

My broker used to classify me as a premium client, then I became a platinum client. I’ll have to change brokers to become a private client I suppose. I want to level up 😁

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 01, 2018, 01:25:53 PM

We've been trying to dump an Ameriprise account for over a month.  They keep dragging it out.  Going straight to VTSAX the minute they allow the transfer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Secretly Saving on March 01, 2018, 03:16:15 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on March 01, 2018, 08:10:00 AM

"Private Client" was mentioned and I know Fidelity gives you this designation if your account is over $1M.  With this, you get a Private Client manager which means that when you call Fidelity for a generic question, you have to tell them "no, I don't want to be transferred to my private client manager because it'll land in his voicemail and I won't hear for 3 days what the answer to my simple question is".  On the good side, it means that you get turbo tax for free.  There's a trick to get not only online but downloaded versions.  I did it this year just to see if I could get it.  I was able to.

What's the trick?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 01, 2018, 05:32:22 PM

Quote from: dogboyslim on March 01, 2018, 08:30:09 AM

I give these guys more of a pass on the high dollar cars.  Don't think about this group, think about normal people.  Are they more going to trust giving all their money to the person driving the early 2000's Honda civic, or the person driving the known expensive car?

I think Lexus/Audi A6 is sufficient for that purpose though, so I don't give a complete pass.  Still, I want a DB9.  I will NEVER buy one, but I want one!

Also, Vanguard calls us Flagship clients.  If I get to $5M, I get to be a Flagship Select Client!

In order to get to one of these favoured status's I'd have to move all my money to one place.. But heck if I combine mine and my Wife's accounts just at Vanguard we are over $1M there.. Rest of the 401k's are spread about so that keeps us incognito..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 02, 2018, 01:15:08 AM

We have a mortgage with Chase, plus our checking and savings. There is a LOT of cash there right now, because we are actively searching for our next real estate project. They consistently bug us about becoming Private Clients. Yes, I may have enough to meet their minimum, but I'll be damned if I'm going to have them manage my money. And it kind of pisses me off that they won't count the mortgage for qualifying purposes.

Oh, well. We're somehow managing to live a pretty happy life without being Chase Private Clients, lol!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: wannabe-stache on March 09, 2018, 12:57:59 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on January 02, 2018, 01:40:16 PM

i wasn't tracking NW until May 2017 and it's up an unreal amount in that time frame.  started at $2.1M, ended the year at $2.8M.

With some year end bonus payments expected this month, at this pace (putting aside market volatility) i would bet anything we're at $3.0M by mid Feb if not sooner. it's unreal how it grows even from day to day.

Calling myself to task for that statement. i cursed us all.

but, we've continued down the savings path and with the recent runup, we are at $2.985M.  $15K to go, which of course could become $100K to go in a flash as February pointed out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: webguy on March 09, 2018, 01:40:34 PM

Can I join your thread?  We just hit 2M yesterday! And with the friendly market today we're up another 15k already!  I'm carrying over our progress from the race to 2M thread if that's OK as I like keeping track of it this way.

Quote from: webguy on March 08, 2018, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 06, 2017, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on August 24, 2016, 07:53:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 01, 2016, 10:42:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 13, 2016, 01:41:00 PM

Quote from: webguy on November 12, 2015, 09:46:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 26, 2015, 08:35:08 PM

I'd like to join to help motivate me. Currently at $540k and hope to hit the big 1M in the next couple of years.

I made it to $748k! Keep saving everybody!!

I made it to $988k and was getting excited... and then taxes hit! Looks like it'll be another few months yet :(

I finally did it!! Crawled over the line to $1,000,330 today!  Feels pretty surreal. Never thought I'd actually be worth a million dollars. Now I guess I keep on saving towards the next million!

Currently at $1.11m.  Don't really have a goal number at this point. I love running my own business so just tryna ride it out as long as possible and "make hay while the sun shines" as they say.

Passed the half way point!  Somehow we have $1.535m. Not sure how long the next 0.465 will take but I'll report back if we get there!

It took a little longer than I’d hoped due to the market being a douchebag lately but we Just hit 2 million today! We’re officially multi-millionaires I guess! I crunched the numbers and I think our “fat fire” number is around 2.5-3M so I’ll probably keep trucking away till we hit that, then I’m not sure what I’ll do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on March 09, 2018, 07:11:37 PM

@webguy , once you are in , you are in forever, only upward ...and beyond! are ways to exit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on March 10, 2018, 09:18:05 AM

just popped in to say I've enjoyed the first 10 days of March far more than the first 10 days of Feb.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on March 10, 2018, 09:22:52 AM

@webguy congratulations!  Looking through your posts it seems you have started a successful software business?  Would you mind sharing what kind of software you make and how you sell it?  Would love to hear your story!  I am addicted to successful entrepreneurial stories :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on March 13, 2018, 07:58:06 AM

Quote from: Secretly Saving on March 01, 2018, 03:16:15 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on March 01, 2018, 08:10:00 AM

"Private Client" was mentioned and I know Fidelity gives you this designation if your account is over $1M.  With this, you get a Private Client manager which means that when you call Fidelity for a generic question, you have to tell them "no, I don't want to be transferred to my private client manager because it'll land in his voicemail and I won't hear for 3 days what the answer to my simple question is".  On the good side, it means that you get turbo tax for free.  There's a trick to get not only online but downloaded versions.  I did it this year just to see if I could get it.  I was able to.

What's the trick?

I can't remember, but I remember going in and you have the choice to order a number of options.  The online is free.  I think I clicked the downloadable version and 3 or 4 options came up....one of them being free.  I could be off on how I got it......maybe there was a charge but then a minus equal amount on checkout.  Didn't take me more than 2 minutes screwing around to get it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on March 29, 2018, 03:22:06 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 09, 2018, 01:40:34 PM

Can I join your thread?  We just hit 2M yesterday! And with the friendly market today we're up another 15k already!  I'm carrying over our progress from the race to 2M thread if that's OK as I like keeping track of it this way.

Quote from: webguy on March 08, 2018, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 06, 2017, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on August 24, 2016, 07:53:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 01, 2016, 10:42:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 13, 2016, 01:41:00 PM

Quote from: webguy on November 12, 2015, 09:46:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 26, 2015, 08:35:08 PM

I'd like to join to help motivate me. Currently at $540k and hope to hit the big 1M in the next couple of years.

I made it to $748k! Keep saving everybody!!

I made it to $988k and was getting excited... and then taxes hit! Looks like it'll be another few months yet :(

I finally did it!! Crawled over the line to $1,000,330 today!  Feels pretty surreal. Never thought I'd actually be worth a million dollars. Now I guess I keep on saving towards the next million!

Currently at $1.11m.  Don't really have a goal number at this point. I love running my own business so just tryna ride it out as long as possible and "make hay while the sun shines" as they say.

Passed the half way point!  Somehow we have $1.535m. Not sure how long the next 0.465 will take but I'll report back if we get there!

It took a little longer than I’d hoped due to the market being a douchebag lately but we Just hit 2 million today! We’re officially multi-millionaires I guess! I crunched the numbers and I think our “fat fire” number is around 2.5-3M so I’ll probably keep trucking away till we hit that, then I’m not sure what I’ll do.

Hi webguy, welcome!  I like looking at the dates of your quotes... you really flew through that second million quickly.   Congrats and welcome to the thread.  It's kind of a lifetime status thread.  Once you hit these numbers,  you just hang around with us from now on.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 01, 2018, 06:55:22 AM

Was in the middle of these parameters, crept across the finish line only to get punched back down. Feel like a whack a mole! Currently excluding paid for house around the 3/4 mark after being hit by the market downward move. Being 3 years fire'd though a lot more positive!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on April 21, 2018, 08:26:19 PM

Finally made it after April bonus payments came through. Including home equity were at $3.1M. I will say that it’s a very “ho hum” feeling to cross the threshold. Maybe it will be more exciting when we are at $3M of investments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: honeyfill on April 28, 2018, 10:14:08 PM

still hanging in there at 2.45 million. took a big hit in Jan/Feb in the market and in paying off the kitchen remodel but on the road to recovery now.  Still planning on June 1 retirement!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 30, 2018, 06:52:48 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on April 28, 2018, 10:14:08 PM

still hanging in there at 2.45 million. took a big hit in Jan/Feb in the market and in paying off the kitchen remodel but on the road to recovery now.  Still planning on June 1 retirement!!

At least you're well above the 2M dollar hump.  We came within $31k before the market turned.  Now we're over $90k short.  When the time comes I'm sure we'll flynright past the 2M mark.  Good luck!  June is so very close now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 01, 2018, 12:45:01 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 30, 2018, 06:52:48 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on April 28, 2018, 10:14:08 PM

still hanging in there at 2.45 million. took a big hit in Jan/Feb in the market and in paying off the kitchen remodel but on the road to recovery now.  Still planning on June 1 retirement!!

At least you're well above the 2M dollar hump.  We came within $31k before the market turned.  Now we're over $90k short.  When the time comes I'm sure we'll flynright past the 2M mark.  Good luck!  June is so very close now.

In a queer opposition to frugality and Mustachianism, I'm finding that our initial forays into largess (donating more as we crest our monetary goals, and not being caught up in watching the numbers click up and down like a nightly basketball game (Go Rockets!)) are resulting in more tangible riches, both metaphysically and fundamentally. 

The world, as it is, provides 'sustainably' for our foreseeable existence, and so I give back as a gift in expectation that everyone will enjoy a similar lifestyle in the future.  I want this beautiful world to continue for our children, because it is more than I ever could have hoped for, but I do worry that it is being eroded.

I was drawn to Pete by his lofty 'save the world through environmentalism' verve. Hopefully this site doesn't end up in the dustbin of history as a money grab, since he seems pretty complacent nowadays that he's sitting on a gold mine.

I always wondered, just to be totally transparent, about how a home construction enthusiast could also be hardcore environmentalist.  There is nothing more wasteful than upgrading or gutting a home.  His description rebuilding their 2nd home (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/12/20/shaving-the-costly-edges-from-a-major-renovation/) ... 

Quote

The other challenge is the odd feeling of suddenly becoming one of the biggest consumers in town. Almost every day I have to buy stuff. Tools, materials, and supplies are needed in abundance for a project like this, and so I’ve spent about $20,000 in the past three months. On top of all that steel, there is a huge pile of engineered lumber taking up most of the back driveway and more deliveries on the way. I try to remind myself that it’s an investment, and the money will be returned many times over when we sell our current house (this downsizing will free up over $100,000, even after all these renovation costs). But I still see the trucks and forklifts, steel and wood, cardboard and plastic wrap, and can’t help but notice that for now I am chewing up a huge share of my own planet just to build myself a dwelling.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 03, 2018, 09:05:01 PM

Didn't Pete also install solar panels, buy an electric car, but moreover mainly use a bicycle to get around?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 10, 2018, 08:32:21 AM

Checked off another million milestone recently (I try not to celebrate right away, just in case I meander up and down a few times, but I'm solidly there now).  Being in the oil industry doesn't hurt. 

I'm finding that my spending is beginning to tick up this year too.  I'm fortunate that this doesn't seem to be a problem.  Hope everyone's races are going well!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 10, 2018, 11:33:46 AM

I'm getting closer to 2 million now that the market has gone back up, I was there in late January.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 10, 2018, 08:32:01 PM

The past few sessions have done a lot.  Within 50k or so of the 2 million liquid point.  We peaked at 1.969 million liquid previous.   The firehose is still flowing so we just need a little more market push to get past the next milestone.  I know it's only been a few months, but it seems we've been stuck in this range forever.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on May 17, 2018, 04:56:09 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 27, 2018, 06:16:01 PM

We are past $3M with the crazy market, but plan to invest a bunch in a remodel, which may drop our cash flow, but positively increase our house value. So . . . I'll keep coming back & consider this my "home". I have no idea how property values in the bay area will continue to grow/drop/stabilize. After we pay for this remodel, we will do other facepunch worthy things like potentially buying a rental property in Hawaii. So, there's that.

I'm concerned that the housing market just cannot maintain its current trajectory. I'm in the Bay Area. We've past the $3.4M mark, but much of that is in real estate, which is . . . unsteady IMO.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: itchyfeet on May 17, 2018, 10:58:00 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 17, 2018, 04:56:09 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 27, 2018, 06:16:01 PM

I'm concerned that the housing market just cannot maintain its current trajectory. I'm in the Bay Area. We've past the $3.4M mark, but much of that is in real estate, which is . . . unsteady IMO.

Like you I have a house that is rather expensive, but in Sydney. Over the last year it has been dropping in value by around $10,000 a month. It is like my FIRE plans have a slow leak and I am working away feverishly to keep pumping more air in, but am proving a little ineffective due the the leak.

We internd to sell the house when we FIRE and move somewhere cheaper but for a variety of reasons are not ready to sell yet. I do hope that the slow leak does not become a full blown blow out, but I don’t think so. I do however, expect prices to continue to ease.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on May 18, 2018, 07:23:51 AM

that's what I worry about, @itchyfeet . We are on track for retirement without the house as anything more as shelter (e.g. no cash out), but our retirement plans would be much more flexible if the house at least maintains current value.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 19, 2018, 09:06:50 PM

What if you were to sell the house now and then rent ?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on May 20, 2018, 08:42:49 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on May 19, 2018, 09:06:50 PM

What if you were to sell the house now and then rent ?

Not sure if you're referring to me or @itchyfeet . For us, we have two kids in school, and there are few to no long term rental options in our area. We will stay the course until our youngest graduates, and then evaluate where things stand

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 20, 2018, 08:54:07 AM

We are currently living in the Middle East, and our house in Sydney is rented out. Once we FIRE we will move back to Sydney and take stock of everything and start looking into where we will move to.

DW will do some casual work to pay ourselves a little rent until we move somewhere cheaper. We are thinking we might live in Sydney for 2 or 3 years after we repatriate as we would like to reconnect with friends and family, and just make sure I don’t need to go back to work to top up the finances. Job prospects for me are far better in Sydney compared to places we are considering to move to once we sell.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 21, 2018, 11:18:11 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 10, 2018, 08:32:01 PM

The past few sessions have done a lot.  Within 50k or so of the 2 million liquid point.  We peaked at 1.969 million liquid previous.   The firehose is still flowing so we just need a little more market push to get past the next milestone.  I know it's only been a few months, but it seems we've been stuck in this range forever.

Looks like we have also just crossed the $2M liquid judging by where we were when the S&P500 was at these levels in January.

It would be nice if the market started making new highs from here.. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 21, 2018, 11:50:44 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 21, 2018, 11:18:11 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 10, 2018, 08:32:01 PM

The past few sessions have done a lot.  Within 50k or so of the 2 million liquid point.  We peaked at 1.969 million liquid previous.   The firehose is still flowing so we just need a little more market push to get past the next milestone.  I know it's only been a few months, but it seems we've been stuck in this range forever.

Looks like we have also just crossed the $2M liquid judging by where we were when the S&P500 was at these levels in January.

It would be nice if the market started making new highs from here.. :)

Congrats to you freshly minted double millionaires, and here’s to yet another new mother of all tops. 😁

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 21, 2018, 12:07:10 PM

Thanks Itchy.. I must say that 0.8% WR was getting scary with the market going down in Feb..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 23, 2018, 07:03:07 PM

2018 has seen my accounts nudge right to the edge of 2M liquid only to have the market immediately decline.   We're about to put a 20 percent down payment on a second home.  That won't be considered liquid so it may be even longer till.we reach the magic 2M liquid number.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 23, 2018, 07:31:37 PM

Having a second home to escape winter seems like a great idea as I get older.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 23, 2018, 10:08:59 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on May 23, 2018, 07:31:37 PM

Having a second home to escape winter seems like a great idea as I get older.

The home will eventually be permanent and yes, Florida.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on May 30, 2018, 07:58:35 AM

I guess I've accidentally found myself here.  Used to make ~$120k year but was away from home traveling for work all the time, and couldn't stand the work, it was depressing.  I had always seen about $1M-$1.5M invested as the number I needed to get out as we seemed to get by fine on $50k/yr, realizing with a growing family there were a lot of unknowns.

9 years ago, at the age of 36, when I had about $300k in retirement savings and a paid for $200k house and had just had my third child I finally had the guts and the client contacts to start a business where I and my employees could all work from home, figuring if I failed I wouldn't be broke, would start a phase of semi-retirements, and most importantly at the time would just be home either way. After making less for a number of years (though plenty to cover our expenses and save well) the work and net profit exploded.  Over the past couple of years the amount of work got to me and I was close to checking out but I've since finally figured out how to shift much of the responsibility to employees and thru client partnership ventures.

Last year I netted about $500k and this year will likely be $1M+ (extremely volatile from month to month, next year could very well be $200k as it could be $1M).  For these years taxes are now by far the primary financial focus as what I'll pay in taxes this year alone is many times what we spend.  Needing new financial goals I've filled 529s to the tune of $120k for each child and started a DAF to help with taxes which I'll use throughout FIRE to make charitable donations from, and investments not including 529s have built to about $2.8M with a total net worth of about $3.6M.  We've let our spending increase and now basically buy everything we want to, go on any trip we want to (and can find the time for), etc, but for this family of 5, $100k pretty much covers all that.

The 'problem' that obviously emerged is how to downshift without quitting, as quitting is no longer the holy grail as it once was.  I feel personally obligated to employees to keep things rolling, my workday stresses me out and takes too much of my time but I certainly don't "hate" it, I'm actually quite proud of it now, and its hard to not notice what OMY of work can do right now, even though we obviously have more than enough.  I think I'm finally getting somewhere on the transfer of responsibilities and reducing stress.  Its really really funny how many people think you have a hidden agenda when you try to give up profit in return for handing off responsibility, no one seems to ever understand giving up profit potential and that has actually created some difficulties in this downshifting.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 30, 2018, 12:41:58 PM

Quote from: Strick on May 30, 2018, 07:58:35 AM

I guess I've accidentally found myself here.  Used to make ~$120k year but was away from home traveling for work all the time, and couldn't stand the work, it was depressing.  I had always seen about $1M-$1.5M invested as the number I needed to get out as we seemed to get by fine on $50k/yr, realizing with a growing family there were a lot of unknowns.

9 years ago, at the age of 36, when I had about $300k in retirement savings and a paid for $200k house and had just had my third child I finally had the guts and the client contacts to start a business where I and my employees could all work from home, figuring if I failed I wouldn't be broke, would start a phase of semi-retirements, and most importantly at the time would just be home either way. After making less for a number of years (though plenty to cover our expenses and save well) the work and net profit exploded.  Over the past couple of years the amount of work got to me and I was close to checking out but I've since finally figured out how to shift much of the responsibility to employees and thru client partnership ventures.

Last year I netted about $500k and this year will likely be $1M+ (extremely volatile from month to month, next year could very well be $200k as it could be $1M).  For these years taxes are now by far the primary financial focus as what I'll pay in taxes this year alone is many times what we spend.  Needing new financial goals I've filled 529s to the tune of $120k for each child and started a DAF to help with taxes which I'll use throughout FIRE to make charitable donations from, and investments not including 529s have built to about $2.8M with a total net worth of about $3.6M.  We've let our spending increase and now basically buy everything we want to, go on any trip we want to (and can find the time for), etc, but for this family of 5, $100k pretty much covers all that.

The 'problem' that obviously emerged is how to downshift without quitting, as quitting is no longer the holy grail as it once was.  I feel personally obligated to employees to keep things rolling, my workday stresses me out and takes too much of my time but I certainly don't "hate" it, I'm actually quite proud of it now, and its hard to not notice what OMY of work can do right now, even though we obviously have more than enough.  I think I'm finally getting somewhere on the transfer of responsibilities and reducing stress.  Its really really funny how many people think you have a hidden agenda when you try to give up profit in return for handing off responsibility, no one seems to ever understand giving up profit potential and that has actually created some difficulties in this downshifting.

Good for you! In my career, I worked with a number of business owners. A surprising number of them kept the businesses going long after they had "enough", just to keep their employees' livelihoods intact. Eventually, many of them sold the businesses to the employees outright, often acting as the bank until they found their own footing. Win-win.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on June 01, 2018, 06:09:57 PM

Back over the 2 million dollar mark again

$1,631 in liquid net worth
$  383  in home equity if Zillow is to be believed

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: w@nker on June 03, 2018, 08:05:47 PM

I'll join this race.  Sounds like good company and discussion. 

Wife and I are at $2.3M net worth at 35.  I expect to hit $3M in two years at 37.  Even though we are already technically FI, we won't stop there, as we have some significant philanthropic interests that would ideally involve setting up a foundation during ER.  So, may stop at $5M in what will likely be five years at 40, or if not there, certainly the earlier of 45 or $10M.

This whole snowball thing is legit.  Insanity.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Roland of Gilead on June 03, 2018, 08:34:53 PM

We are retired but might get to the $2M mark with speculative biotech investing.  I only play around with $100k but already have generated $400,000 in gains from it.  Taxes start to put a crimp in things.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: texxan1 on June 03, 2018, 08:46:01 PM

I'm gonna join in this thread and see how long I can stay in it LOL

46 YO single
$1.57m in liquid assets
500k paid for house.

So that puts me barely here, going for 2m liquid before I pull the plug so should be there in about 2 years... but the more and more I calculate the more and more I think that with 1.75m liquid I can bolt..... then I will change my name to FIREnFishing

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 04, 2018, 07:10:32 AM

Quote from: texxan1 on June 03, 2018, 08:46:01 PM

I'm gonna join in this thread and see how long I can stay in it LOL

46 YO single
$1.57m in liquid assets
500k paid for house.

So that puts me barely here, going for 2m liquid before I pull the plug so should be there in about 2 years... but the more and more I calculate the more and more I think that with 1.75m liquid I can bolt..... then I will change my name to FIREnFishing

Wow.  I've need to FIRE quick so I can
steal FIREDnFishing as my handle. 🤣

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: meatgrinder on June 04, 2018, 02:46:58 PM

I'm usually all about stealth wealth but fuck it!  Interwebs anonymity is partial stealth.....

$2.4M net worth. 38yo with stay at home wife and two young kids. Should reach $3M sometime in 2019 (market willing).  Already FI but I'm in the upside down world of not knowing what to do if I were to leave work.  Maybe once my current batch of RSUs vest in a couple years and if the wife joins the work force I'll sit on the couch and watch Jerry Springer reruns.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FireAndFree on June 07, 2018, 02:33:23 AM

Glad to join all of you on the adventure!

I'm already FIREd. My net worth is currently $2.98M. Hoping to hit $3M in the next 2-3 months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 07, 2018, 03:04:13 AM

I tip toed back and for over the 3 mark but did alot of remodeling, traveling and the dip in the market put me back under. Wouldnt take much to be towing the line again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 07, 2018, 06:21:49 AM

Quote from: meatgrinder on June 04, 2018, 02:46:58 PM

I'm usually all about stealth wealth but fuck it!  Interwebs anonymity is partial stealth.....

$2.4M net worth. 38yo with stay at home wife and two young kids. Should reach $3M sometime in 2019 (market willing).  Already FI but I'm in the upside down world of not knowing what to do if I were to leave work.  Maybe once my current batch of RSUs vest in a couple years and if the wife joins the work force I'll sit on the couch and watch Jerry Springer reruns.

Stealth wealth is fabulous.   All cash-no flash. 

The last few market days have pushed us over the 2MM mark.  Putting a downpayment on the retirement house in a few weeks.   May be back in the class of 2019 if the market holds. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 07, 2018, 11:11:03 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 07, 2018, 06:21:49 AM

Quote from: meatgrinder on June 04, 2018, 02:46:58 PM

I'm usually all about stealth wealth but fuck it!  Interwebs anonymity is partial stealth.....

$2.4M net worth. 38yo with stay at home wife and two young kids. Should reach $3M sometime in 2019 (market willing).  Already FI but I'm in the upside down world of not knowing what to do if I were to leave work.  Maybe once my current batch of RSUs vest in a couple years and if the wife joins the work force I'll sit on the couch and watch Jerry Springer reruns.

Stealth wealth is fabulous.   

All cash - no flash.

The last few market ddays have pushed us over the 2MM mark.  Putting a downpayment on the retirement house in a few weeks.   May be back in the class of 2019 if the market holds.

Love this! Oh wait, is that too flashy?  It doesn't have sparkles, so it's okay, right?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 07, 2018, 12:04:53 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 07, 2018, 11:11:03 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 07, 2018, 06:21:49 AM

Quote from: meatgrinder on June 04, 2018, 02:46:58 PM

I'm usually all about stealth wealth but fuck it!  Interwebs anonymity is partial stealth.....

$2.4M net worth. 38yo with stay at home wife and two young kids. Should reach $3M sometime in 2019 (market willing).  Already FI but I'm in the upside down world of not knowing what to do if I were to leave work.  Maybe once my current batch of RSUs vest in a couple years and if the wife joins the work force I'll sit on the couch and watch Jerry Springer reruns.

Stealth wealth is fabulous.   

All cash - no flash.

The last few market ddays have pushed us over the 2MM mark.  Putting a downpayment on the retirement house in a few weeks.   May be back in the class of 2019 if the market holds.

Love this! Oh wait, is that too flashy?  It doesn't have sparkles, so it's okay, right?

Dicey, in my most southern accent possible.   YOU are a mess!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 08, 2018, 02:31:48 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 07, 2018, 12:04:53 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 07, 2018, 11:11:03 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 07, 2018, 06:21:49 AM

Quote from: meatgrinder on June 04, 2018, 02:46:58 PM

I'm usually all about stealth wealth but fuck it!  Interwebs anonymity is partial stealth.....

$2.4M net worth. 38yo with stay at home wife and two young kids. Should reach $3M sometime in 2019 (market willing).  Already FI but I'm in the upside down world of not knowing what to do if I were to leave work.  Maybe once my current batch of RSUs vest in a couple years and if the wife joins the work force I'll sit on the couch and watch Jerry Springer reruns.

Stealth wealth is fabulous.   

All cash - no flash.

The last few market ddays have pushed us over the 2MM mark.  Putting a downpayment on the retirement house in a few weeks.   May be back in the class of 2019 if the market holds.

Love this! Oh wait, is that too flashy?  It doesn't have sparkles, so it's okay, right?

Dicey, in my most southern accent possible.   YOU are a mess!

Oh, Bateaux, bless your heart, thank you! (Snirt. Did you hear my southern accent too? )

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on June 08, 2018, 08:19:57 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 17, 2018, 04:56:09 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 27, 2018, 06:16:01 PM

We are past $3M with the crazy market, but plan to invest a bunch in a remodel, which may drop our cash flow, but positively increase our house value. So . . . I'll keep coming back & consider this my "home". I have no idea how property values in the bay area will continue to grow/drop/stabilize. After we pay for this remodel, we will do other facepunch worthy things like potentially buying a rental property in Hawaii. So, there's that.

I'm concerned that the housing market just cannot maintain its current trajectory. I'm in the Bay Area. We've past the $3.4M mark, but much of that is in real estate, which is . . . unsteady IMO.

We're now past $3.5M, which feels quite surreal. I'm a waffler on my FIRE date, but this sort of puts it into perspective. I keep promising I will set a revised target & actually do something. (Again, about 1/2 of that is in real estate, so not liquid).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on June 08, 2018, 08:51:26 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on June 08, 2018, 08:19:57 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 17, 2018, 04:56:09 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 27, 2018, 06:16:01 PM

We are past $3M with the crazy market, but plan to invest a bunch in a remodel, which may drop our cash flow, but positively increase our house value. So . . . I'll keep coming back & consider this my "home". I have no idea how property values in the bay area will continue to grow/drop/stabilize. After we pay for this remodel, we will do other facepunch worthy things like potentially buying a rental property in Hawaii. So, there's that.

I'm concerned that the housing market just cannot maintain its current trajectory. I'm in the Bay Area. We've past the $3.4M mark, but much of that is in real estate, which is . . . unsteady IMO.

We're now past $3.5M, which feels quite surreal. I'm a waffler on my FIRE date, but this sort of puts it into perspective. I keep promising I will set a revised target & actually do something. (Again, about 1/2 of that is in real estate, so not liquid).

Pull the plug and enjoy the rest of your life.   You've won!  Now, get out there and enjoy the bliss.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on June 08, 2018, 09:02:38 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 08, 2018, 08:51:26 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on June 08, 2018, 08:19:57 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 17, 2018, 04:56:09 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 27, 2018, 06:16:01 PM

We are past $3M with the crazy market, but plan to invest a bunch in a remodel, which may drop our cash flow, but positively increase our house value. So . . . I'll keep coming back & consider this my "home". I have no idea how property values in the bay area will continue to grow/drop/stabilize. After we pay for this remodel, we will do other facepunch worthy things like potentially buying a rental property in Hawaii. So, there's that.

I'm concerned that the housing market just cannot maintain its current trajectory. I'm in the Bay Area. We've past the $3.4M mark, but much of that is in real estate, which is . . . unsteady IMO.

We're now past $3.5M, which feels quite surreal. I'm a waffler on my FIRE date, but this sort of puts it into perspective. I keep promising I will set a revised target & actually do something. (Again, about 1/2 of that is in real estate, so not liquid).

Pull the plug and enjoy the rest of your life.   You've won!  Now, get out there and enjoy the bliss.

That's me, over here, waving from my corner of the Bay Area, in my stupidly expensive house, not mansion.  My vote is eerily similar to Bateaux'. Get out there and enjoy the days as soon as you can!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: markbike528CBX on June 08, 2018, 09:11:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 08, 2018, 08:51:26 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on June 08, 2018, 08:19:57 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 17, 2018, 04:56:09 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 27, 2018, 06:16:01 PM

We are past $3M with the crazy market, but plan to invest a bunch in a remodel, which may drop our cash flow, but positively increase our house value. So . . . I'll keep coming back & consider this my "home". I have no idea how property values in the bay area will continue to grow/drop/stabilize. After we pay for this remodel, we will do other facepunch worthy things like potentially buying a rental property in Hawaii. So, there's that.

I'm concerned that the housing market just cannot maintain its current trajectory. I'm in the Bay Area. We've past the $3.4M mark, but much of that is in real estate, which is . . . unsteady IMO.

We're now past $3.5M, which feels quite surreal. I'm a waffler on my FIRE date, but this sort of puts it into perspective. I keep promising I will set a revised target & actually do something. (Again, about 1/2 of that is in real estate, so not liquid).

Pull the plug and enjoy the rest of your life.   You've won!  Now, get out there and enjoy the bliss.

@Bateaux, great advice!   You should take your own advice seriously.  Since you are in this thread, you should consider joining us in the 2018 cohort.  As OP of the 2019 thread, you have my permission, if that's what it takes :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on June 08, 2018, 09:13:48 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 08, 2018, 09:02:38 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 08, 2018, 08:51:26 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on June 08, 2018, 08:19:57 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 17, 2018, 04:56:09 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 27, 2018, 06:16:01 PM

We are past $3M with the crazy market, but plan to invest a bunch in a remodel, which may drop our cash flow, but positively increase our house value. So . . . I'll keep coming back & consider this my "home". I have no idea how property values in the bay area will continue to grow/drop/stabilize. After we pay for this remodel, we will do other facepunch worthy things like potentially buying a rental property in Hawaii. So, there's that.

I'm concerned that the housing market just cannot maintain its current trajectory. I'm in the Bay Area. We've past the $3.4M mark, but much of that is in real estate, which is . . . unsteady IMO.

We're now past $3.5M, which feels quite surreal. I'm a waffler on my FIRE date, but this sort of puts it into perspective. I keep promising I will set a revised target & actually do something. (Again, about 1/2 of that is in real estate, so not liquid).

Pull the plug and enjoy the rest of your life.   You've won!  Now, get out there and enjoy the bliss.

That's me, over here, waving from my corner of the Bay Area, in my stupidly expensive house, not mansion.  My vote is eerily similar to Bateaux'. Get out there and enjoy the days as soon as you can!

Whereabouts are you, Dicey? My current conundrum is, while I'm totally done with work (in my mind, haha), I've been offered an opportunity to have a side role (with current company) where I can teach leadership & development classes. I've always thought that would be something I'd want to try out in a flexible FIRE world, and this would be a risk free way to do that. Also, one of my people managers is leaving at the end of the month, and if I also leave, it would make things incredibly challenging for some of my favorite people at work. But, there is never a good time, and I need to remind myself of that. I've promised myself that a realistic end date (no wiggle room, no excuses) is something I need to come to emotional grips with.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Dicey on June 08, 2018, 09:41:26 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on June 08, 2018, 09:13:48 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 08, 2018, 09:02:38 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 08, 2018, 08:51:26 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on June 08, 2018, 08:19:57 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 17, 2018, 04:56:09 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 27, 2018, 06:16:01 PM

We are past $3M with the crazy market, but plan to invest a bunch in a remodel, which may drop our cash flow, but positively increase our house value. So . . . I'll keep coming back & consider this my "home". I have no idea how property values in the bay area will continue to grow/drop/stabilize. After we pay for this remodel, we will do other facepunch worthy things like potentially buying a rental property in Hawaii. So, there's that.

I'm concerned that the housing market just cannot maintain its current trajectory. I'm in the Bay Area. We've past the $3.4M mark, but much of that is in real estate, which is . . . unsteady IMO.

We're now past $3.5M, which feels quite surreal. I'm a waffler on my FIRE date, but this sort of puts it into perspective. I keep promising I will set a revised target & actually do something. (Again, about 1/2 of that is in real estate, so not liquid).

Pull the plug and enjoy the rest of your life.   You've won!  Now, get out there and enjoy the bliss.

That's me, over here, waving from my corner of the Bay Area, in my stupidly expensive house, not mansion.  My vote is eerily similar to Bateaux'. Get out there and enjoy the days as soon as you can!

Whereabouts are you, Dicey? My current conundrum is, while I'm totally done with work (in my mind, haha), I've been offered an opportunity to have a side role (with current company) where I can teach leadership & development classes. I've always thought that would be something I'd want to try out in a flexible FIRE world, and this would be a risk free way to do that. Also, one of my people managers is leaving at the end of the month, and if I also leave, it would make things incredibly challenging for some of my favorite people at work. But, there is never a good time, and I need to remind myself of that. I've promised myself that a realistic end date (no wiggle room, no excuses) is something I need to come to emotional grips with.

One of the many gifts of having cancer in my early twenties is that I deeply understand how much it's not about work. It will always go on without me, no matter how fantastic I was at my job (Hint: quite competent, but no superstar). Same for my Post-FIRE volunteer activities. As to my whereabouts, I'll PM you. I may or may not be in the Witness* Protection Program.

* I live fairly close to a religious denomination's main meeting place. They regularly knock on my door. I call them my WPP and I'm always nice to them when I open the door.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on June 08, 2018, 10:40:23 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on June 08, 2018, 09:11:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 08, 2018, 08:51:26 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on June 08, 2018, 08:19:57 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 17, 2018, 04:56:09 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 27, 2018, 06:16:01 PM

We are past $3M with the crazy market, but plan to invest a bunch in a remodel, which may drop our cash flow, but positively increase our house value. So . . . I'll keep coming back & consider this my "home". I have no idea how property values in the bay area will continue to grow/drop/stabilize. After we pay for this remodel, we will do other facepunch worthy things like potentially buying a rental property in Hawaii. So, there's that.

I'm concerned that the housing market just cannot maintain its current trajectory. I'm in the Bay Area. We've past the $3.4M mark, but much of that is in real estate, which is . . . unsteady IMO.

We're now past $3.5M, which feels quite surreal. I'm a waffler on my FIRE date, but this sort of puts it into perspective. I keep promising I will set a revised target & actually do something. (Again, about 1/2 of that is in real estate, so not liquid).

Pull the plug and enjoy the rest of your life.   You've won!  Now, get out there and enjoy the bliss.

@Bateaux, great advice!   You should take your own advice seriously.  Since you are in this thread, you should consider joining us in the 2018 cohort.  As OP of the 2019 thread, you have my permission, if that's what it takes :-)

We're absolutely working on it.   2019 is the earliest unfortunately.   We have two sons to keep in health care a we bit longer and help eject them into the working world.   BUT!  It is possible it's months to go and not years at this point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on June 08, 2018, 11:20:23 AM

If you're house rich you should consider Harry Sit's blog about how to utilize that toward financing one's life, and not have to move.

https://thefinancebuff.com/fund-retirement-paid-off-home.html

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 08, 2018, 04:16:56 PM

S&P500 a mere 3.2% below all time high..:)

That puts us at about 2.544M if I count the silly pension valuations and probably cracks the $3M mark with house.

All seems quite surreal.

Now we have just dropped some serious coin this month i.e..

$4000 on new deck materials
$1000 on my TIG welding set up
$1700 on flights to Europe.

All said and done we will probably spend $40k this year.. but we get $20k in rent.. Like when will I stop worrying that we don't have enough $$$?

Habits of a lifetime I guess?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 08, 2018, 08:54:22 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 08, 2018, 04:16:56 PM

S&P500 a mere 3.2% below all time high..:)

That puts us at about 2.544M if I count the silly pension valuations and probably cracks the $3M mark with house.

All seems quite surreal.

Now we have just dropped some serious coin this month i.e..

$4000 on new deck materials
$1000 on my TIG welding set up
$1700 on flights to Europe.

All said and done we will probably spend $40k this year.. but we get $20k in rent.. Like when will I stop worrying that we don't have enough $$$?

Habits of a lifetime I guess?

Love it.  Keep us posted.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FireAndFree on June 10, 2018, 03:19:15 AM

Well that happened faster than expected. We just crossed the $3M mark. I guess it's time for a new thread?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Roland of Gilead on June 10, 2018, 08:12:41 AM

Quote from: FireAndFree on June 10, 2018, 03:19:15 AM

Well that happened faster than expected. We just crossed the $3M mark. I guess it's time for a new thread?

Might want to recalculate on Monday evening before getting too excited.   I think Trump's G7 tantrum is going to bring markets down 1% to 2% on Monday.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 10, 2018, 10:32:44 AM

Nice job though.. Is that liquid or does that include the house?

Personally I ignore the house because its not clear to me how to accurately value it, so in effect you end up guessing at a number which seems less than meaningful to me at least.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on June 10, 2018, 07:59:19 PM

Quote from: Roland of Gilead on June 10, 2018, 08:12:41 AM

Quote from: FireAndFree on June 10, 2018, 03:19:15 AM

Well that happened faster than expected. We just crossed the $3M mark. I guess it's time for a new thread?

Might want to recalculate on Monday evening before getting too excited.   I think Trump's G7 tantrum is going to bring markets down 1% to 2% on Monday.

Yes on that. And if Trump bungles us into a war with North Korea and/or Iran you can expect a 70% drop in the stock market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 10, 2018, 09:14:36 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on June 10, 2018, 07:59:19 PM

Quote from: Roland of Gilead on June 10, 2018, 08:12:41 AM

Quote from: FireAndFree on June 10, 2018, 03:19:15 AM

Well that happened faster than expected. We just crossed the $3M mark. I guess it's time for a new thread?

Might want to recalculate on Monday evening before getting too excited.   I think Trump's G7 tantrum is going to bring markets down 1% to 2% on Monday.

Yes on that. And if Trump bungles us into a war with North Korea and/or Iran you can expect a 70% drop in the stock market.

70%? Really? Is that a promise?  If it is, I'll be scrounging up all the cash I can and going on a stock shopping spree. Yippee!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Roland of Gilead on June 10, 2018, 09:52:52 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 10, 2018, 09:14:36 PM

70%? Really? Is that a promise?  If it is, I'll be scrounging up all the cash I can and going on a stock shopping spree. Yippee!

If we get in a war with North Korea, which will probably draw in China and some type of nuclear exchange, you can go on a stock shopping spree while I go to Costco and buy bulk everything that lasts for awhile.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 11, 2018, 12:05:26 AM

Quote from: Roland of Gilead on June 10, 2018, 09:52:52 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 10, 2018, 09:14:36 PM

70%? Really? Is that a promise?  If it is, I'll be scrounging up all the cash I can and going on a stock shopping spree. Yippee!

If we get in a war with North Korea, which will probably draw in China and some type of nuclear exchange, you can go on a stock shopping spree while I go to Costco and buy bulk everything that lasts for awhile.

Lol, I live in earthquake country and Costco is my usual grocery store, so we're fairly well covered in terms of supplies. I was mostly gently poking fun at the precision of DAA's prediction. 70%? Okay. I'm not going to shy away from stock shopping if a big drop happens.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 11, 2018, 06:59:33 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 11, 2018, 12:05:26 AM

Quote from: Roland of Gilead on June 10, 2018, 09:52:52 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 10, 2018, 09:14:36 PM

70%? Really? Is that a promise?  If it is, I'll be scrounging up all the cash I can and going on a stock shopping spree. Yippee!

If we get in a war with North Korea, which will probably draw in China and some type of nuclear exchange, you can go on a stock shopping spree while I go to Costco and buy bulk everything that lasts for awhile.

Lol, I live in earthquake country and Costco is my usual grocery store, so we're fairly well covered in terms of supplies. I was mostly gently poking fun at the precision of DAA's prediction. 70%? Okay. I'm not going to shy away from stock shopping if a big drop happens.

Ohhh nooo!  It's too late to buy beans!  Buy bullets!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on June 11, 2018, 11:52:07 AM

Don't just walk! Run !!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Melisande on July 09, 2018, 04:06:31 PM

Just did my semi-annual net worth calculation and we are now at $2,350,000, up $122,000 from the beginning of the year. Yay!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 09, 2018, 05:03:02 PM

Nice, so thats a 5.4% increase. But the S&P 500 is only up 3.2% (plus dividends).

So clearly you are invested in something that has paid a higher return.. Is a bunch of this home equity perhaps?

Care to share?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on July 09, 2018, 05:06:38 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2018, 05:03:02 PM

Nice, so thats a 5.4% increase. But the S&amp;P 500 is only up 3.2% (plus dividends).

So clearly you are invested in something that has paid a higher return.. Is a bunch of this home equity perhaps?

Care to share?

Contributions?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Melisande on July 09, 2018, 05:57:54 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2018, 05:03:02 PM

Nice, so thats a 5.4% increase. But the S&P 500 is only up 3.2% (plus dividends).

So clearly you are invested in something that has paid a higher return.. Is a bunch of this home equity perhaps?

Care to share?

About $30,000 is additional home equity. We also contributed about $25,000 from current income, so that makes only about $67,000 investment returns. We have $1,920,000 in investments, so that means about a 3.5% return. Not that much above the market.  We just have a lot of high risk/high reward index funds with TIAA & Vanguard.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 09, 2018, 11:44:32 PM

I've dropped out of the 2MM plus club again.  Down payment and closing costs on Florida retirement home sucked away cash.  Sucks to be in debt again, even though it's less than 10 percent of our net worth.  I don't like counting real estate as an asset.  Now on to rebuilding the cash kitty so FIRE can get back on schedule.   Retirement accounts are blossoming nicely however.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 10, 2018, 01:59:00 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 09, 2018, 11:44:32 PM

I've dropped out of the 2MM plus club again.  Down payment and closing costs on Florida retirement home sucked away cash.  Sucks to be in debt again, even though it's less than 10 percent of our net worth.  I don't like counting real estate as an asset.  Now on to rebuilding the cash kitty so FIRE can get back on schedule.   Retirement accounts are blossoming nicely however.

Easy come, easy go

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on July 10, 2018, 11:21:11 AM

Just wrapped up our mid year check in, and we're at $3.7M. (This includes our house value). We started the year at $2.9ish, so it's a good uptick. Gains are coming from: additional 401K investment (we max in January from our bonuses), stock market, corporate stock vests (part of our overall compensation package) + quite a big swing in housing value.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 10, 2018, 11:36:45 AM

Nice job on the 3.7M..:)

I have not added ours up but looking at the S&P500 we should be over $2M Liquid and pension valuations have increased to about $525k.

House seems to be worth about $500k but thats a SWAG due to very few direct comps in the area.

So roughly $3M total. No savings growth as we have FIRED.

Seems kind of irrelevant though as we will barely crack a 1% WR this year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Saving4Fire on July 31, 2018, 01:17:07 PM

I'm in the 1-2m club, however yesterday my wife received unexpectedly good news (not inheritance) and in the next few weeks we're going to be in the "and beyond" club.   I'm in a state of shock and I'm currently trying to reorient my life expectations.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on July 31, 2018, 01:26:18 PM

Quote from: Saving4Fire on July 31, 2018, 01:17:07 PM

I'm in the 1-2m club, however yesterday my wife received unexpectedly good news (not inheritance) and in the next few weeks we're going to be in the "and beyond" club.   I'm in a state of shock and I'm currently trying to reorient my life expectations.

Wow - that's great news! How are you thinking of adjusting your plans given the news?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Saving4Fire on July 31, 2018, 02:03:17 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on July 31, 2018, 01:26:18 PM

Quote from: Saving4Fire on July 31, 2018, 01:17:07 PM

I'm in the 1-2m club, however yesterday my wife received unexpectedly good news (not inheritance) and in the next few weeks we're going to be in the "and beyond" club.   I'm in a state of shock and I'm currently trying to reorient my life expectations.

Wow - that's great news! How are you thinking of adjusting your plans given the news?

To be candid, I don't know and I'm still trying to process the change.  After this transaction completes we'll be worth around 3.5m.   We're dual income professionals with no kids in our early 40's, so we have a lot of options.

I'm sure this money will be in a trust for my wife, so technically if we ever divorce I wouldn't see any of it, which I'm fine with.   Regardless, this is a big change for me.  Most of our current net worth (1.75m) is from my super saver ways and higher compensation. Conversely, my wife is more of a spendypants by MMM standards (but way better than the average American).   I've never resented her spending and lower savings rate, however I planned on working longer to ensure she can retire comfortably too.   However, now that she has a large nest egg my decisions can be more selfish.

That said, I really like my job and I don't see myself leaving in the foreseeable future... but you never know.

It's also worth adding - her compensation is really starting to take off and she has no desire to retire, which I'm also fine with.   I'm more than happy to have her be the breadwinner of the family.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 31, 2018, 08:56:37 PM

My progress is quite slow these days due to my House in Sydney dropping in value by around $170K over the past 12 months.... luckily that AUD and not USD I suppose.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 31, 2018, 09:12:45 PM

Still temporally out of the 2MM class.  Buying the house in Florida stripped us of cash for the downpayment.   We're gaining that ground back rapidly though.  Got an offer to sell our least valuable real estate, a non-rented rental.  That would get us well on our way and rebuild our cash.  I don't consider real estate as an asset, more a liability and money pit in my experience.   JL Collins has it right, rent a nice place and let the landlord fix the toilets.   I should have followed his advice.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 01, 2018, 01:41:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 31, 2018, 09:12:45 PM

Still temporally out of the 2MM class.  Buying the house in Florida stripped us of cash for the downpayment.   We're gaining that ground back rapidly though.  Got an offer to sell our least valuable real estate, a non-rented rental.  That would get us well on our way and rebuild our cash.  I don't consider real estate as an asset, more a liability and money pit in my experience.   JL Collins has it right, rent a nice place and let the landlord fix the toilets.   I should have followed his advice.

In my case, I have made a good portion of my NW from property capital gains. But, now I have a stash, my appetite for further property speculation is pretty much zero. Slowly rebalancing to mostly stocks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bigchrisb on August 01, 2018, 01:44:59 AM

I've ticked up to $3.2m, mostly from stock market appreciation (Australian shares).  I'm up $267k since leaving my main job at the start of October last year, so nice to know I've dodged at least the first year of sequence of returns risk.   Income from investments (less interest) look like $126k this year, with spending well below that.  Staying in the $3m bracket really depends on what the markets choose to do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 01, 2018, 02:48:39 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 01, 2018, 01:41:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 31, 2018, 09:12:45 PM

Still temporally out of the 2MM class.  Buying the house in Florida stripped us of cash for the downpayment.   We're gaining that ground back rapidly though.  Got an offer to sell our least valuable real estate, a non-rented rental.  That would get us well on our way and rebuild our cash.  I don't consider real estate as an asset, more a liability and money pit in my experience.   JL Collins has it right, rent a nice place and let the landlord fix the toilets.   I should have followed his advice.

In my case, I have made a good portion of my NW from property capital gains. But, now I have a stash, my appetite for further property speculation is pretty much zero. Slowly rebalancing to mostly stocks.

Some can work real estate to their advantage.  I just seem to lack the skill. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 01, 2018, 07:42:08 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 01, 2018, 01:41:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 31, 2018, 09:12:45 PM

Still temporally out of the 2MM class.  Buying the house in Florida stripped us of cash for the downpayment.   We're gaining that ground back rapidly though.  Got an offer to sell our least valuable real estate, a non-rented rental.  That would get us well on our way and rebuild our cash.  I don't consider real estate as an asset, more a liability and money pit in my experience.   JL Collins has it right, rent a nice place and let the landlord fix the toilets.   I should have followed his advice.

In my case, I have made a good portion of my NW from property capital gains. But, now I have a stash, my appetite for further property speculation is pretty much zero. Slowly rebalancing to mostly stocks.

Funny how that happens. Our house (complete with rentals) has gradually reduced from 100% of our net worth to about 16%.

At one time I was "landlord of the year".. Now I secretly hope my renters burn the rental trailer house to the ground and leave!

Maybe then I could sell our property and then lease it back from the new owner?...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 01, 2018, 08:12:38 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 01, 2018, 02:48:39 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 01, 2018, 01:41:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 31, 2018, 09:12:45 PM

Still temporally out of the 2MM class.  Buying the house in Florida stripped us of cash for the downpayment.   We're gaining that ground back rapidly though.  Got an offer to sell our least valuable real estate, a non-rented rental.  That would get us well on our way and rebuild our cash.  I don't consider real estate as an asset, more a liability and money pit in my experience.   JL Collins has it right, rent a nice place and let the landlord fix the toilets.   I should have followed his advice.

In my case, I have made a good portion of my NW from property capital gains. But, now I have a stash, my appetite for further property speculation is pretty much zero. Slowly rebalancing to mostly stocks.

Some can work real estate to their advantage.  I just seem to lack the skill.

Time heals all wounds. It also creates a lot of real estate "success" stories.

In many cases, the investor would have done better in equities, but the threat of losing their home forces people to make mortgage payments. Without that incentive, humans are far less likely to fill their investment accounts with similar vigor.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 01, 2018, 11:34:41 AM

Residential property has averaged 10.2% pa returns in Australia over the past 20 years (source: Russell Investments Long aterm Investing Report 2018). And with generous tax incentives adding fuel to the fire it’s been an easy way to accumulate wealth.

But, of course such gains for an asset that provides no more and no less than it did 20 years ago must come to an end, and in fact globally there is a retreat in residential real estate prices in most major cities. The party is over, banks and governments have realised the dangers of the entire population being ridiculously leveraged, and speculator money is moving elsewhere. Unlike stocks there is a limit to what houses are worth, as ultimately housing needs to be able to be afforded by the local population.

I know I should sell my Sydney house, prices will certainly retreat further, but there is this damn emotional attachment which is stopping us pull the trigger for the time being.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 01, 2018, 02:33:20 PM

10.2% for 20 years?..Damn!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 01, 2018, 08:39:36 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 01, 2018, 02:33:20 PM

10.2% for 20 years?..Damn!

Yeah, if only I had a crystal ball in my early 20s

Meanwhile Australian shares would have given you 8.8%pa

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 01, 2018, 08:46:44 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 01, 2018, 08:39:36 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 01, 2018, 02:33:20 PM

10.2% for 20 years?..Damn!

Yeah, if only I had a crystal ball in my early 20s

Meanwhile Australian shares would have given you 8.8%pa

Holy crap!  How do young people ever save enough to buy a house in a market like that. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 01, 2018, 09:35:19 PM

Generally they can’t. Parents, who own homes, are often footing the deposit. Young people are now far more likely to rent and invest in stocks than previous generations.

The whole thing is really unhealthy and totally unsustainable.

But as I said, the govt has realized a bit late that high house prices is not a good thing and has taken some measures to make housing investment less attractive to foreign investors, and had increased lending standards to reduce the capacity of locals to borrow so much. More still needs to be done, and will be with time I am sure. But unwinding the bubble needs to be done very slowly to avoid huge negative impacts on the economy.

If the last 20 years had 10.2% growth pa, I would expect the next 10 years to have less than 2% growth pa.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 01, 2018, 10:36:58 PM

or -2%

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on August 02, 2018, 06:54:27 AM

I think Australia is in the unusual situation of not having had a recession in like 20 years or more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 02, 2018, 11:34:47 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 01, 2018, 10:36:58 PM

or -2%

Very possible.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 02, 2018, 11:36:42 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 02, 2018, 06:54:27 AM

I think Australia is in the unusual situation of not having had a recession in like 20 years or more.

Technically this is correct, although it does seem there was a small amount of cooking the books to keep this pretty impressive fact alive.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bigchrisb on August 02, 2018, 02:10:49 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 02, 2018, 06:54:27 AM

I think Australia is in the unusual situation of not having had a recession in like 20 years or more.

Not since 1991 on official stats.  Sydney real estate is particularly warped. Over 80 suburbs have median prices above $2m, there as 5 years ago that list was 5 rich enclaves.  There are plenty of Sydneysiders that would be in the $2m club, based only on buying their house 20 years ago. Combined with construction being 9% of Australian employment, when it unwinds my opinion is that it will get ugly. I'll be happy holding my home, and a good chunk of international index funds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 04, 2018, 12:11:23 PM

Well as of the market close Friday our NW has hit a new high.. Even with with a small drawdown (FIRED).

This includes savings plus pension valuations.. Our savings are still slightly under the peak in January

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on August 07, 2018, 06:41:47 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 04, 2018, 12:11:23 PM

Well as of the market close Friday our NW has hit a new high.. Even with with a small drawdown (FIRED).

This includes savings plus pension valuations.. Our savings are still slightly under the peak in January

YAY!  That's great news Exflyboy!  Did you FIRE?  How's life treating ya now?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 07, 2018, 07:14:58 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on August 07, 2018, 06:41:47 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 04, 2018, 12:11:23 PM

Well as of the market close Friday our NW has hit a new high.. Even with with a small drawdown (FIRED).

This includes savings plus pension valuations.. Our savings are still slightly under the peak in January

YAY!  That's great news Exflyboy!  Did you FIRE?  How's life treating ya now?

I did I have not done any paid work for over 2 years now. Life is great although I have been getting a bit lazy mainly because its so hot.

I'm thinking I'm at the point where not having a job feels normal...:)

Maybe I'll do a little paid work at some point, or maybe not!

Life is really pretty freaking awesome all in all..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 08, 2018, 05:01:51 AM

A few paychecks, dividends and upticks in the market has us back over 2MM again.  The FIRE goal of 2.5MM will hopefully develop by August 2020.  August 2020 will be here quickly.   It took me almost six months to find a house for retirement and close on the loan.  That time flew by.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 08, 2018, 12:04:09 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 08, 2018, 05:01:51 AM

A few paychecks, dividends and upticks in the market has us back over 2MM again.  The FIRE goal of 2.5MM will hopefully develop by August 2020.  August 2020 will be here quickly.   It took me almost six months to find a house for retirement and close on the loan.  That time flew by.

There you go.. I knew you had to be close..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on August 22, 2018, 04:00:32 PM

Hi, all!  I’m in the club. I can’t tell anyone IRL, and it feels weird to say it even here. I’m well past what I thought was my FIRE number, so I’m trying to get used to the idea of retiring, and also to practice not panicking at market fluctuations (I’m mainly invested in equities, although I’ve been diversifying more lately). 
It feels like I’ve been stalled out at the same NW for a while, but I think it might just be that as my NW has grown, my contributions have become less important compared to investment growth, so the rate of growth has slowed down, while in absolute terms I’m still plugging along as before.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 23, 2018, 12:49:07 AM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on August 22, 2018, 04:00:32 PM

Hi, all!  I’m in the club. I can’t tell anyone IRL, and it feels weird to say it even here. I’m well past what I thought was my FIRE number, so I’m trying to get used to the idea of retiring, and also to practice not panicking at market fluctuations (I’m mainly invested in equities, although I’ve been diversifying more lately). 
It feels like I’ve been stalled out at the same NW for a while, but I think it might just be that as my NW has grown, my contributions have become less important compared to investment growth, so the rate of growth has slowed down, while in absolute terms I’m still plugging along as before.

Welcome to the 2 comma and beyond club.  If you are like me, that second million was almost too easy.   Now what you save has less impact on growth.  The wealth has become self replicating.   A little over a month ago we put a down payment on a second home.   That knocked down our accounts a bit.  We've almost recovered that money in a little over a month.  Sometimes I think this can't be legal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on August 23, 2018, 09:25:07 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 23, 2018, 12:49:07 AM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on August 22, 2018, 04:00:32 PM

Hi, all!  I’m in the club. I can’t tell anyone IRL, and it feels weird to say it even here. I’m well past what I thought was my FIRE number, so I’m trying to get used to the idea of retiring, and also to practice not panicking at market fluctuations (I’m mainly invested in equities, although I’ve been diversifying more lately). 
It feels like I’ve been stalled out at the same NW for a while, but I think it might just be that as my NW has grown, my contributions have become less important compared to investment growth, so the rate of growth has slowed down, while in absolute terms I’m still plugging along as before.

Welcome to the 2 comma and beyond club.  If you are like me, that second million was almost too easy.   Now what you save has less impact on growth.  The wealth has become self replicating.   A little over a month ago we put a down payment on a second home.   That knocked down our accounts a bit.  We've almost recovered that money in a little over a month.  Sometimes I think this can't be legal.

I tend to notice the negative more, and it feels so absurd to see my NW take a $50k+ hit in a single day (rare, but it happens)—that’s more than some of my friends/family make in a year!!!!  Somehow that makes more of an impact than when my NW is back to where it was 2 days later.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 23, 2018, 04:21:50 PM

It does feel like the good times are coming to a close. I rebalanced the portfolio today as stock ETFs hit 84% of the total..

We are now running 80/20 (stock/bond) ignoring the pensions. If the market tanks I'll happily roll to 90/10..:)

Nobody really knows of course.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 24, 2018, 12:11:02 PM

And of course I rebalanced at exactly the wrong time.. Well not really..:)

I was just thinking that if the market holds close to its current numbers that most of the people on this forum will be the richest they have ever been!

Thats pretty cool!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 24, 2018, 05:07:59 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 24, 2018, 12:11:02 PM

And of course I rebalanced at exactly the wrong time.. Well not really..:)

I was just thinking that if the market holds close to its current numbers that most of the people on this forum will be the richest they have ever been!

Thats pretty cool!

Aw hell, EFB, every day I'm the richest I've ever been, no matter what the stock market does.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 25, 2018, 03:01:54 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 24, 2018, 05:07:59 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 24, 2018, 12:11:02 PM

And of course I rebalanced at exactly the wrong time.. Well not really..:)

I was just thinking that if the market holds close to its current numbers that most of the people on this forum will be the richest they have ever been!

Thats pretty cool!

Aw hell, EFB, every day I'm the richest I've ever been, no matter what the stock market does.

Well said Dicey.   

By the way we are at a new high point as of today. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 26, 2018, 11:14:05 PM

Rich as well as wealthy..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on August 27, 2018, 04:53:15 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 23, 2018, 12:49:07 AM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on August 22, 2018, 04:00:32 PM

Hi, all!  I’m in the club. I can’t tell anyone IRL, and it feels weird to say it even here. I’m well past what I thought was my FIRE number, so I’m trying to get used to the idea of retiring, and also to practice not panicking at market fluctuations (I’m mainly invested in equities, although I’ve been diversifying more lately). 
It feels like I’ve been stalled out at the same NW for a while, but I think it might just be that as my NW has grown, my contributions have become less important compared to investment growth, so the rate of growth has slowed down, while in absolute terms I’m still plugging along as before.

Welcome to the 2 comma and beyond club.  If you are like me, that second million was almost too easy.   Now what you save has less impact on growth.  The wealth has become self replicating.   A little over a month ago we put a down payment on a second home.   That knocked down our accounts a bit.  We've almost recovered that money in a little over a month.  Sometimes I think this can't be legal.

To make it to this group I had to include my GF's TSP numbers and our pensions.  Just today if I add in all my financial numbers (add in $35k in savings), my total is $955k, her's is up to $1,058k.  We're over $2 Mil!!!.  And I don't have to include my house (paid off), nor either of our pensions ($30k/yr for her starting this January - I'm vested at $31k/yr starting in 4 years).  And she finally realizes our finances will be fine (she was STILL worrying???).  We need to work on merging our households this winter and fix up my house but having money will make things happen.

And beyond that, I just visited my mother this weekend.  She's self employed at 72, still very active, travelling to Europe yearly, and now I find she has much more money than I ever realized (over $600k).   And she is just finishing upgrading the last room in her house.  So I'm not worrying about her finances either.

But yeah, back to the Miser's point, it still doesn't feel like we are rich, but compared to an extreme percentage we are.  Crazy....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on August 27, 2018, 05:07:50 PM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on August 22, 2018, 04:00:32 PM

Hi, all!  I’m in the club. I can’t tell anyone IRL, and it feels weird to say it even here.

Welcome, Miserly!
I felt that way at first, but, with practice, I own it now.  (WHOOOO HOOOO!) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 28, 2018, 12:51:13 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on August 27, 2018, 04:53:15 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 23, 2018, 12:49:07 AM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on August 22, 2018, 04:00:32 PM

Hi, all!  I’m in the club. I can’t tell anyone IRL, and it feels weird to say it even here. I’m well past what I thought was my FIRE number, so I’m trying to get used to the idea of retiring, and also to practice not panicking at market fluctuations (I’m mainly invested in equities, although I’ve been diversifying more lately). 
It feels like I’ve been stalled out at the same NW for a while, but I think it might just be that as my NW has grown, my contributions have become less important compared to investment growth, so the rate of growth has slowed down, while in absolute terms I’m still plugging along as before.

Welcome to the 2 comma and beyond club.  If you are like me, that second million was almost too easy.   Now what you save has less impact on growth.  The wealth has become self replicating.   A little over a month ago we put a down payment on a second home.   That knocked down our accounts a bit.  We've almost recovered that money in a little over a month.  Sometimes I think this can't be legal.

To make it to this group I had to include my GF's TSP numbers and our pensions.  Just today if I add in all my financial numbers (add in $35k in savings), my total is $955k, her's is up to $1,058k.  We're over $2 Mil!!!.  And I don't have to include my house (paid off), nor either of our pensions ($30k/yr for her starting this January - I'm vested at $31k/yr starting in 4 years).  And she finally realizes our finances will be fine (she was STILL worrying???).  We need to work on merging our households this winter and fix up my house but having money will make things happen.

And beyond that, I just visited my mother this weekend.  She's self employed at 72, still very active, travelling to Europe yearly, and now I find she has much more money than I ever realized (over $600k).   And she is just finishing upgrading the last room in her house.  So I'm not worrying about her finances either.

But yeah, back to the Miser's point, it still doesn't feel like we are rich, but compared to an extreme percentage we are.  Crazy....

Very well done.  You're in great shape.  Enjoy the freedom.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on September 05, 2018, 10:59:27 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on July 10, 2018, 11:21:11 AM

Just wrapped up our mid year check in, and we're at $3.7M. (This includes our house value). We started the year at $2.9ish, so it's a good uptick. Gains are coming from: additional 401K investment (we max in January from our bonuses), stock market, corporate stock vests (part of our overall compensation package) + quite a big swing in housing value.

We are closing in on $4M. Note that we have a ton of equity tied up into a very expensive housing market (Bay Area), as well as employee stock options. So, in my mind, it's not "real", but I'll keep tracking it. :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on September 05, 2018, 02:52:11 PM

I’ve just reached $1.7 million in liquid assets and have about another $390k in home equity

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on September 05, 2018, 04:08:43 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on September 05, 2018, 02:52:11 PM

I’ve just reached $1.7 million in liquid assets and have about another $390k in home equity

Cool You're about $0.5M ahead of where I was at your tender age.. Back in 2013.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on September 05, 2018, 06:43:20 PM

Ha. Well I wish I had your mechanical skills in fixing things around the home.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on September 05, 2018, 06:54:40 PM

Terminal cheapness is a great motivator to learn..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 14, 2018, 09:19:17 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on September 05, 2018, 06:54:40 PM

Terminal cheapness is a great motivator to learn..:)

How about "Perpetual Frugality"? It sounds better and possibly like you will live longer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 20, 2018, 09:25:11 AM

I've taken a temporary (hopefully) hiatus from Mustacianism.  Setting up the Florida house has been rather expensive.  I'm happy we chose to make the home purchase while still employed to help absorb the costs.   We made the purchase in July and so far we've made three trips over from Louisiana to get things done.   One thing I've noticed since turning 50 this summer is I can't work hard all day and drive 600 miles with no sleep.  Ultimately we will FIRE and sell the Louisiana house.  That will cut down on lots of the expense and effort we're fighting right now. 
We do love our new home in Florida and can't wait to be there permanently.  Working hard in the yard, cleaning or painting is rewarded with a refreshing dip in the pool with an adult beverage.  We bought the 30 year old, 4,100 square foot home on an acre lot for $237,000, in a golf and country club community.  The HOA is only a $100 a year because amenities are optional.   We may join the social club and gym when we move.  It's about the cost of the YMCA from what we've heard.  I don't golf.  We run, bike and do water sports.  Tennis is included with the gym I think.  We finally have furniture in one bedroom.   We'd been sleeping on a mattress on the floor.  Our final night there last week we slept in a bed!   It was a Craigslist purchase.  It's a $3000 set we bought with a few wear marks for $850.   Also $30 for a U-haul trailer we rented for behind our truck.  We managed to take a day off and tube the beautiful Rainbow River.  Can't wait to enjoy the natural playground that the Nature Coast provides.  It's still possible we will FIRE in 2019 but 2020 looks more likely.  We've depleted a lot of our cash reserves even though our retirement accounts have been very powerful lately.  Right now it's less stressful working a bit longer than adding stress about cash flow.  That's all I've got to report for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 20, 2018, 10:02:46 AM

Nothing wrong with taking breaks from Mustachianism in my book.  I converted a 600k 401k from an old employer into money market funds instead of S&&P500 index.  Was it a good idea - of course not in a Mustachian sense, but it's been nothing but win-win for me personally.  Let's just say the market goes up 10% this year, that 60k opportunity cost sounds pretty painful.  But it also means I gained over 200k in my remaining portfolio, which is still over 2x my projected ER spending!  And I'm much more relaxed while I do other big things in my life and pretty much ignore the market.  If the market ends up down 10% (or 50%), I'll be much more upset having lost so much (on paper), but at least I'll have that 600k to play with.  Putting it back in the market while it is falling will suck, I know that from 2008, but it gives me peace of mind not to worry about the market this year until I get more time to figure out what I really want.  More passive income and net worth really isn't doing much for me if it's not being used to provide this peace of mind.  So yeah, I guess I'm on hiatus from being an uber-efficient, cold and calculated Mustachian for the rest of this year.  Cheers!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 22, 2018, 05:02:35 PM

I call bullshit in the supposed "break". You're doing your own moving, buying used furniture on CL and planning for your post-FIRE future. What could be more mustachian than that? It's not about never spending money, it's about spending in line with your carefully evaluated values. You're killing it, @Bateaux!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on September 23, 2018, 04:51:28 AM

^^^^ this^^^^..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 23, 2018, 09:22:28 PM

Thanks for the encouragement guys.  The big beautiful Florida home will likely become the biggest tug to FIRE.   We love it there so much already.  With Fall soon providing refreshing cooler weather the desire will be even stronger.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on September 24, 2018, 08:39:39 AM

It sounds like a beautiful place Bateaux.  Would love to see some pictures of the area if you want to post them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on September 24, 2018, 11:56:05 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 22, 2018, 05:02:35 PM

I call bullshit in the supposed "break". You're doing your own moving, buying used furniture on CL and planning for your post-FIRE future. What could be more mustachian than that? It's not about never spending money, it's about spending in line with your carefully evaluated values. You're killing it, @Bateaux!

Bullshit or humble brag?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 24, 2018, 03:33:41 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 24, 2018, 11:56:05 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 22, 2018, 05:02:35 PM

I call bullshit in the supposed "break". You're doing your own moving, buying used furniture on CL and planning for your post-FIRE future. What could be more mustachian than that? It's not about never spending money, it's about spending in line with your carefully evaluated values. You're killing it, @Bateaux!

Bullshit or humble brag?

1. I've never gotten that impression from Bateaux.
2. This is a safe place. It's allowed, nay encouraged.
3. See #1.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 24, 2018, 06:34:09 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 24, 2018, 03:33:41 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 24, 2018, 11:56:05 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 22, 2018, 05:02:35 PM

I call bullshit in the supposed "break". You're doing your own moving, buying used furniture on CL and planning for your post-FIRE future. What could be more mustachian than that? It's not about never spending money, it's about spending in line with your carefully evaluated values. You're killing it, @Bateaux!

Bullshit or humble brag?

1. I've never gotten that impression from Bateaux.
2. This is a safe place. It's allowed, nay encouraged.
3. See #1.

Just an update guys.   I do welcome comments, even criticism.   If it comes from those that scrapped their own way to this thread, It's worth it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 24, 2018, 08:16:16 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 24, 2018, 06:34:09 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 24, 2018, 03:33:41 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 24, 2018, 11:56:05 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 22, 2018, 05:02:35 PM

I call bullshit in the supposed "break". You're doing your own moving, buying used furniture on CL and planning for your post-FIRE future. What could be more mustachian than that? It's not about never spending money, it's about spending in line with your carefully evaluated values. You're killing it, @Bateaux!

Bullshit or humble brag?

1. I've never gotten that impression from Bateaux.
2. This is a safe place. It's allowed, nay encouraged.
3. See #1.

Just an update guys.   I do welcome comments, even criticism.   If it comes from those that scrapped their own way to this thread, It's worth it.

If it had seemed constructive or even tongue in cheek, I would have let it pass...

I adore how civil this place is and aim to help keep it that way. Except, of course, if someone Is in dire need of a face punch, but I haven't thrown many of those lately.

I squeaked over the $100k earning line just once in my career and hit FI as a single person, so I'm definitely a scrapper, but mostly in the sense of advocating for my own financial freedom, not as in picking on others.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on September 24, 2018, 09:00:24 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 24, 2018, 08:16:16 PM

I squeaked over the $100k earning line just once in my career and hit FI as a single person, so I'm definitely a scrapper, but mostly in the sense of advocating for my own financial freedom, not as in picking on others.

That's my story too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on September 24, 2018, 09:06:38 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 24, 2018, 08:16:16 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 24, 2018, 06:34:09 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 24, 2018, 03:33:41 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 24, 2018, 11:56:05 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 22, 2018, 05:02:35 PM

I call bullshit in the supposed "break". You're doing your own moving, buying used furniture on CL and planning for your post-FIRE future. What could be more mustachian than that? It's not about never spending money, it's about spending in line with your carefully evaluated values. You're killing it, @Bateaux!

Bullshit or humble brag?

1. I've never gotten that impression from Bateaux.
2. This is a safe place. It's allowed, nay encouraged.
3. See #1.

Just an update guys.   I do welcome comments, even criticism.   If it comes from those that scrapped their own way to this thread, It's worth it.

If it had seemed constructive or even tongue in cheek, I would have let it pass...

I adore how civil this place is and aim to help keep it that way. Except, of course, if someone Is in dire need of a face punch, but I haven't thrown many of those lately.

I squeaked over the $100k earning line just once in my career and hit FI as a single person, so I'm definitely a scrapper, but mostly in the sense of advocating for my own financial freedom, not as in picking on others.

Guys, it was certainly meant tongue in cheek. Apologies if it came across differently

I was just laughing because here was a guy with more than $2M saying he wasn’t moustachian when he had spent just $200K on a place and was buying 2nd hand furniture. I was feeling he was bragging because he was spending so little compared to my present situation where I have a clownishly expensive inner city house.

I look forward to when I can brag that I am getting free of the rat race to a cheaper place!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 24, 2018, 09:26:56 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 24, 2018, 09:06:38 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 24, 2018, 08:16:16 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 24, 2018, 06:34:09 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 24, 2018, 03:33:41 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 24, 2018, 11:56:05 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 22, 2018, 05:02:35 PM

I call bullshit in the supposed "break". You're doing your own moving, buying used furniture on CL and planning for your post-FIRE future. What could be more mustachian than that? It's not about never spending money, it's about spending in line with your carefully evaluated values. You're killing it, @Bateaux!

Bullshit or humble brag?

1. I've never gotten that impression from Bateaux.
2. This is a safe place. It's allowed, nay encouraged.
3. See #1.

Just an update guys.   I do welcome comments, even criticism.   If it comes from those that scrapped their own way to this thread, It's worth it.

If it had seemed constructive or even tongue in cheek, I would have let it pass...

I adore how civil this place is and aim to help keep it that way. Except, of course, if someone Is in dire need of a face punch, but I haven't thrown many of those lately.

I squeaked over the $100k earning line just once in my career and hit FI as a single person, so I'm definitely a scrapper, but mostly in the sense of advocating for my own financial freedom, not as in picking on others.

Guys, it was certainly meant tongue in cheek. Apologies if it came across differently

I was just laughing because here was a guy with more than $2M saying he wasn’t moustachian when he had spent just $200K on a place and was buying 2nd hand furniture. I was feeling he was bragging because he was spending so little compared to my present situation where I have a clownishly expensive inner city house.

I look forward to when I can brag that I am getting free of the rat race to a cheaper place!

It's all good Itchy.  I love hearing from all of you.   I was trying to do more of a confession than a brag.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 24, 2018, 10:36:03 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 24, 2018, 09:26:56 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 24, 2018, 09:06:38 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 24, 2018, 08:16:16 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 24, 2018, 06:34:09 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 24, 2018, 03:33:41 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 24, 2018, 11:56:05 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 22, 2018, 05:02:35 PM

I call bullshit in the supposed "break". You're doing your own moving, buying used furniture on CL and planning for your post-FIRE future. What could be more mustachian than that? It's not about never spending money, it's about spending in line with your carefully evaluated values. You're killing it, @Bateaux!

Bullshit or humble brag?

1. I've never gotten that impression from Bateaux.
2. This is a safe place. It's allowed, nay encouraged.
3. See #1.

Just an update guys.   I do welcome comments, even criticism.   If it comes from those that scrapped their own way to this thread, It's worth it.

If it had seemed constructive or even tongue in cheek, I would have let it pass...

I adore how civil this place is and aim to help keep it that way. Except, of course, if someone Is in dire need of a face punch, but I haven't thrown many of those lately.

I squeaked over the $100k earning line just once in my career and hit FI as a single person, so I'm definitely a scrapper, but mostly in the sense of advocating for my own financial freedom, not as in picking on others.

Guys, it was certainly meant tongue in cheek. Apologies if it came across differently

I was just laughing because here was a guy with more than $2M saying he wasn’t moustachian when he had spent just $200K on a place and was buying 2nd hand furniture. I was feeling he was bragging because he was spending so little compared to my present situation where I have a clownishly expensive inner city house.

I look forward to when I can brag that I am getting free of the rat race to a cheaper place!

It's all good Itchy.  I love hearing from all of you.   I was trying to do more of a confession than a brag.

You are hereby absolved, by the power that has been vested in me. That's MMM power, and it is mighty strong. Strong like walrus, yuk-yuk.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on September 25, 2018, 11:50:44 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 23, 2018, 09:22:28 PM

Thanks for the encouragement guys.  The big beautiful Florida home will likely become the biggest tug to FIRE.   We love it there so much already.  With Fall soon providing refreshing cooler weather the desire will be even stronger.

don't hold your breath...not sure where in FL you are but here in miami it's still so fu$#ing hot.

i ran at 5:30 this am, it was 81 degrees, humid and felt like 90.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 25, 2018, 02:32:10 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on September 25, 2018, 11:50:44 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 23, 2018, 09:22:28 PM

Thanks for the encouragement guys.  The big beautiful Florida home will likely become the biggest tug to FIRE.   We love it there so much already.  With Fall soon providing refreshing cooler weather the desire will be even stronger.

don't hold your breath...not sure where in FL you are but here in miami it's still so fu$#ing hot.

i ran at 5:30 this am, it was 81 degrees, humid and felt like 90.

It's Citrus County.  About an hour north of Tampa.  It's devils butthole hot at least half the year.  Same here in gulf coastal Louisiana.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 03, 2018, 12:17:03 PM

Well damn I have never had more money than I do right now.. But I am on holiday so I don't trust the security of the WIFI connection to check what we are actually worth..

I think This 6 week European tour has been more than paid for by todays moves..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bigchrisb on October 05, 2018, 05:19:11 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 03, 2018, 12:17:03 PM

Well damn I have never had more money than I do right now.. But I am on holiday so I don't trust the security of the WIFI connection to check what we are actually worth..

I think This 6 week European tour has been more than paid for by todays moves..:)

I feel much the same. Just did a bucket list diving trip to scapa flow, and saw more cash roll in as dividends than I spent while there. Helps settle down the "fear of not enough" psychology.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 05, 2018, 03:33:45 PM

Clearly I spoke too soon and now I have no idea how to pay for this 6 week EU vacation... kidding..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 06, 2018, 02:12:04 AM

Just checked Mint.  Lost about 25K on paper.   Still over 2M invested as of now.  Wouldn't take much more to drop kick me back to sub 2M right now.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on October 06, 2018, 04:44:11 AM

I’ve been lucky that $AUD drop is propping up my stash, which I measure in AUD. I have quite a bit invested in non-AUD investments. And, as I am currently paid in USD I have had a nice pay rise (in AUD) over the course of this year.

Declining property prices in Sydney are starting to cause me a little concern as I approach my FIRE date though..... but we keep having the sell/ hold discussion and keep landing on the hold side.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on October 12, 2018, 04:10:46 AM

-$75K for the week.

My emerging markets investments are showing a loss of 17% for 2018

My house in Sydney has dropped in value by $100k this year.

I am sitting on $50K cash and am thinking I might hold onto that cash and add to it so as to head into FIRE with a bigger cash stash (term deposits) than I was previously contemplating just so I don’t need to sell anything for a few years. My total stash looks like it will be a bit lower than I was targeting as “my number”.

FIRE date is June next year.

It will be nice not to have to worry about market gyrations for the first few years post FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 12, 2018, 05:51:00 AM

Dipping well below the 2M invested threshold now.  Currently about 1.94M which is a 100K plus drop from the recent high.  I'm very happy to be still working.  I've set 2M invested as the floor of the action level.   During which times all unnecessary spending will be cut and employment will be sought.  I have relatives who retired prior to the  great recession.  Once the recession hit they waited too late to curb spending and too late to seek additional employment.   They thought they had plenty invested prior to the drop.  Now they have to work lesser paying jobs in their 70s.  They unfortunately didn't have the knowledge and hindsight we have today.  Many never dreamed how deep the losses would be. 
Seeing 100K evaporate so quickly was an eye opener for me.   I'm going to buy more security with time working. 
I just don't ever want to be poor again.  I'm not wasting my life working now for a large amount of money, so much as I did when poor and working for almost nothing.   I'm filled with regret for the ignorance of my youth. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on October 12, 2018, 08:01:04 AM

I hear you Bateaux

I can’t tell you how many times I have had the should we or shouldn’t we talk with my DW.

Her family all live really old, so she could well have 60 years ahead of her post FIRE. I wouldn’t want for her to be struggling financially in the 2nd half of those years after I am gone (no one in my family lives long).

I am still committed to FIREing next year, but I can’t say that I am 100% sure it is the right decision.

But I am so sick of the indecisiveness so for my DW’s sanity I have had to commit to a decision and stop flip flopping..... or at least flip flopping less frequently 😝

DW plans to continue working maybe 3-6 months each year, so this gives us a little added security.

But, 1 year of me working full time would prob give the same financial outcome as DW working 15 years at 3 months a year. This makes the decision (re my obligation to her financial security in old age) a difficult one. I can make the difference. Of course there can be no guarantees, but the bigger the stash, the more the certainty.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on October 12, 2018, 08:25:29 AM

I was on my way here to complain that my investments have dropped $200k over the past few weeks and see that others have posted on the same topic.  I'm still working, and I'm trying to see this as practice for keeping my cool when I see large market fluctuations once I've retired.  To make myself feel better, I tallied up my spending during September, and I'm still comfortably within a 3% withdrawal rate, even with my smaller portfolio.  It still doesn't feel good to see such a drop, though :(

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: onlykelsey on October 12, 2018, 08:40:02 AM

I don't belong here but I've been binge reading so I'm posting to follow.  Maybe I'll see you in the back half of my 30s.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on October 12, 2018, 11:50:39 AM

The US stock market is only down ~7% from average peak.......hardly a correction yet.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on October 12, 2018, 02:07:01 PM

consider this a good time to buy if you have some dry powder

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 12, 2018, 09:34:00 PM

Quote from: onlykelsey on October 12, 2018, 08:40:02 AM

I don't belong here but I've been binge reading so I'm posting to follow.  Maybe I'll see you in the back half of my 30s.

Certainly you belong. We don't check bank accounts at the door.    Come back anytime.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 12, 2018, 09:36:52 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on October 12, 2018, 11:50:39 AM

The US stock market is only down ~7% from average peak.......hardly a correction yet.

I'm just being a little whiney bitch.  Put it in bread loaves.   I had 20 loaves of bread.   I lost one loaf.  I still have 19 loaves of bread and an oven.  More loaves coming.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 12, 2018, 10:30:58 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 12, 2018, 09:36:52 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on October 12, 2018, 11:50:39 AM

The US stock market is only down ~7% from average peak.......hardly a correction yet.

I'm just being a little whiney bitch.  Put it in bread loaves.   I had 20 loaves of bread.   I lost one loaf.  I still have 19 loaves of bread and an oven.  More loaves coming.

Bateaux, I love this!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on October 13, 2018, 05:11:33 AM

Quote from: Dicey on October 12, 2018, 10:30:58 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 12, 2018, 09:36:52 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on October 12, 2018, 11:50:39 AM

The US stock market is only down ~7% from average peak.......hardly a correction yet.

I'm just being a little whiney bitch.  Put it in bread loaves.   I had 20 loaves of bread.   I lost one loaf.  I still have 19 loaves of bread and an oven.  More loaves coming.

Bateaux, I love this!

😂

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 13, 2018, 06:25:12 AM

That post was after about four ounces of tequila. 

;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 13, 2018, 08:34:38 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 13, 2018, 06:25:12 AM

That post was after about four ounces of tequila. 

;)

Pretty inspired for "drunk posting".. The all important oven..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on October 17, 2018, 12:05:57 PM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on October 12, 2018, 08:25:29 AM

I was on my way here to complain that my investments have dropped $200k over the past few weeks and see that others have posted on the same topic.  I'm still working, and I'm trying to see this as practice for keeping my cool when I see large market fluctuations once I've retired.  To make myself feel better, I tallied up my spending during September, and I'm still comfortably within a 3% withdrawal rate, even with my smaller portfolio.  It still doesn't feel good to see such a drop, though :(

Understood, its really crazy when you are reaching FI and compare your SWR to volatile portfolio moves (e.g. if the market drops 8%, and your fairly well diversified portfolio drops 6% in that week, 18 months of spending seemed to just disappear before you could even get around to booting up quicken).  But I agree it is good practice and doesn't feel good....I'm not ashamed to admit that during the crisis I learned that though I enjoyed watching CNBC or often looked at my portfolio in the good times, it was good to not follow so closely in the bad...and I dont think I would have ever been one to sell scared...but its just not a fun feeling when things are down like it is when they are up so I dont do it as often

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on October 17, 2018, 01:08:25 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 13, 2018, 06:25:12 AM

That post was after about four ounces of tequila. 

;)

Sounds like a prudent fortification!   But 19 loaves is a lot of loaves, and oh so close to 20.   Great attitude!  That new house might be big, but it sounds like you've made a great purchase at a great price point.  Enjoy it! 

I'm back after a non-MMM 6 weeks in Europe.   Or maybe it wasn't so non-MMM, after all, I did stay at little mom and pop places, not big fancy face punch worthy resorts.  The frugal me has learned how to travel on a real budget.  I think a blogger once called it "the high/low lifestyle."

Now I've got to get one more rental in motion.  (that means rented out).   It should cash flow nearly 20K a year, so every day it's not rented is costing us. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on October 18, 2018, 12:54:33 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on October 17, 2018, 12:05:57 PM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on October 12, 2018, 08:25:29 AM

I was on my way here to complain that my investments have dropped $200k over the past few weeks and see that others have posted on the same topic.  I'm still working, and I'm trying to see this as practice for keeping my cool when I see large market fluctuations once I've retired.  To make myself feel better, I tallied up my spending during September, and I'm still comfortably within a 3% withdrawal rate, even with my smaller portfolio.  It still doesn't feel good to see such a drop, though :(

Understood, its really crazy when you are reaching FI and compare your SWR to volatile portfolio moves (e.g. if the market drops 8%, and your fairly well diversified portfolio drops 6% in that week, 18 months of spending seemed to just disappear before you could even get around to booting up quicken).  But I agree it is good practice and doesn't feel good....I'm not ashamed to admit that during the crisis I learned that though I enjoyed watching CNBC or often looked at my portfolio in the good times, it was good to not follow so closely in the bad...and I dont think I would have ever been one to sell scared...but its just not a fun feeling when things are down like it is when they are up so I dont do it as often

In 2006-2007, I was aggressively paying down my second mortgage rather than investing, so I didn't have much to lose by the time of the 2008 crash.  I haven't really experienced a bear market yet. 
Also, I am not as diversified as I should be, so when the market drops, I usually drop a little more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 18, 2018, 01:42:02 PM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on October 18, 2018, 12:54:33 PM

In 2006-2007, I was aggressively paying down my second mortgage rather than investing, so I didn't have much to lose by the time of the 2008 crash.  I haven't really experienced a bear market yet. 
Also, I am not as diversified as I should be, so when the market drops, I usually drop a little more.

Did you just say you were aggressively paying down a mortgage?  B42, where are you??  Just kidding, sounds like you were as lucky as we were since we had sold our home in 2007 and were on an expat assignment (company provided housing) and able to aggressively invest in the stock market through 2008-9. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on October 18, 2018, 02:46:46 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 18, 2018, 01:42:02 PM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on October 18, 2018, 12:54:33 PM

In 2006-2007, I was aggressively paying down my second mortgage rather than investing, so I didn't have much to lose by the time of the 2008 crash.  I haven't really experienced a bear market yet. 
Also, I am not as diversified as I should be, so when the market drops, I usually drop a little more.

Did you just say you were aggressively paying down a mortgage?  B42, where are you??  Just kidding, sounds like you were as lucky as we were since we had sold our home in 2007 and were on an expat assignment (company provided housing) and able to aggressively invest in the stock market through 2008-9. 

I mean, I bought my house in 2006, so it isn't like I got a deal--12 years later, it's finally estimated to be within $45k of what I paid for it. 
And I paid the second mortgage down aggressively.  Somehow the interest rate was >12%, I still don't understand how that happened.  It was an interest-only HELOC, so the minimum payment was very low, but I threw everything extra I had at it.  Within a year, I got the balance low enough to transfer to a zero-interest credit card, and I paid it back within a few months after that. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 18, 2018, 03:20:04 PM

Thanks for coloring it in, I knew that you were paying down a second mortgage (but thought it was funny anyways).  We all get to 2M on an interesting path.  Hopefully these youngsters see how much more fun it is to get here, even if you are a little wrong, then just being here. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 18, 2018, 05:31:30 PM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on October 18, 2018, 02:46:46 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 18, 2018, 01:42:02 PM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on October 18, 2018, 12:54:33 PM

In 2006-2007, I was aggressively paying down my second mortgage rather than investing, so I didn't have much to lose by the time of the 2008 crash.  I haven't really experienced a bear market yet. 
Also, I am not as diversified as I should be, so when the market drops, I usually drop a little more.

Did you just say you were aggressively paying down a mortgage?  B42, where are you??  Just kidding, sounds like you were as lucky as we were since we had sold our home in 2007 and were on an expat assignment (company provided housing) and able to aggressively invest in the stock market through 2008-9. 

I mean, I bought my house in 2006, so it isn't like I got a deal--12 years later, it's finally estimated to be within $45k of what I paid for it. 
And I paid the second mortgage down aggressively.  Somehow the interest rate was >12%, I still don't understand how that happened.  It was an interest-only HELOC, so the minimum payment was very low, but I threw everything extra I had at it.  Within a year, I got the balance low enough to transfer to a zero-interest credit card, and I paid it back within a few months after that.

I'd have paid that sucker off in a hurry too, though I'm not sure under what circumstances I'd have taken those terms. Glad it's behind you now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 18, 2018, 06:58:36 PM

I met with my financial advisor for the "first time" today.  It's quotes for first time since he is a friend whose advising philosophy I've long known prior to my engaging him to be my advisor.  I'd started the process to enter a formal partnership before the recent downturn.  I'm looking less from investing advise and more for pretirement planning which may include a phased retirement.  Worst case scenario, I quit tomorrow and never work for a paycheck again 66% chance of success all other options were 80% plus.

What we did not talk about, the market.  Well I did tell him my re balancing criteria but otherwise didn't go into specifics.  We will talk about making adjustments to my portfolio at our next meeting.  On the first glance I got a lot of you are doing things right.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 18, 2018, 09:35:18 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on October 17, 2018, 01:08:25 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 13, 2018, 06:25:12 AM

That post was after about four ounces of tequila. 

;)

Sounds like a prudent fortification!   But 19 loaves is a lot of loaves, and oh so close to 20.   Great attitude!  That new house might be big, but it sounds like you've made a great purchase at a great price point.  Enjoy it! 

I'm back after a non-MMM 6 weeks in Europe.   Or maybe it wasn't so non-MMM, after all, I did stay at little mom and pop places, not big fancy face punch worthy resorts.  The frugal me has learned how to travel on a real budget.  I think a blogger once called it "the high/low lifestyle."

Now I've got to get one more rental in motion.  (that means rented out).   It should cash flow nearly 20K a year, so every day it's not rented is costing us.

Wow.  6 weeks in Europe.   We haven't been yet.  I'm dying to walk the Camino de Santiago and see historical sites along the med.   No face punch to you.   I'm happy for you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on October 20, 2018, 10:48:39 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 18, 2018, 09:35:18 PM

Wow.  6 weeks in Europe.   We haven't been yet.  I'm dying to walk the Camino de Santiago and see historical sites along the med.   No face punch to you.   I'm happy for you.

Thanks! 

A lot of people do the Camino de Santiago in sections.  A week or two of walking per trip.   We ran across many of them (often with a little sea shell on their backpack that marks them as pilgrims) when we were in Spain and France.  In spring, I was in that area, I meet an Australian trio who have been walking a section every year for 10 years.  The wife doesn't walk as far as the husband and friend do, but they all do some of it, year after year.  I was surprised that people do the Camino in such a variety of ways that makes it work for them. There's a couple of main routes, not just one.  I'm sure they are all amazing, though. 
 The Camino is an intriguing idea, discussed here and there in the JoJoP household,  but I think I'd like to do it by bicycle, or even by mule. 

As for the 6 weeks (5 and a half, actually) in Greece... it was a bit long. I'm glad to be home.  I don't think I'll go for that long again.  But I'm blessed.  Our retirement features traveling as one of the main components. The rentals require minimal attention, so our cash flow is secure and flowing no matter where we are in the world. This FI thing is amazing... there's nothing to stop us from going if we want to go.  We have money and no jobs (insert happy dance, thumbs up, and Cheshire Cat Grin). Frequent flyer miles/bank points make the plane tickets about 10 cents on the dollar.  We've figured out how to travel frugally and frequently,  and it's working for us.  It's a big part of our life.  Hotels and Booking.com give access to amazing, off the tourist track hotels that are often under $50 USD a night in the (offbeat) places that we like to go.  2018 was a big travel year for us.  I think I've got over 100 days of international travel this year, mostly Europe, but also New Zealand and Africa,with 2 more trips on the books.  I filled my passport pages in 4 years and had to replace it!

Keep us informed, @Fomerly known as something, on your progress with the financial advisor.  Are most of you using a financial advisor?  Do they give worthwhile input?  I'm considering one, a lady I know,  that has both stocks and rentals.  My inquiries have found that advisors mostly lean strongly towards stocks/portfolio management.   Since I have rentals, I wonder what's a good fit for me. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 21, 2018, 03:11:10 AM

We are at 4.5 weeks in Europe and will come home at 6 weeks. its a long time on the road and more arduous than one might imagine.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 21, 2018, 08:55:58 AM

@Exflyboy - I don't enjoy traveling enough to go for that long, but know that about myself in advance. We are considering having one primary residence in retirement (likely California coast area), and then two vacation houses. We'll rent the other two vacation houses, and then use them as we'd like. We have a vacation house currently, and really enjoy the comforts of being "at home", like the aspect of having some work to do on maintenance to keep us busy, etc.

We also enjoy relaxing travel (e.g. no maintenance, no ownership responsibilities), but probably would tap out around 10 days.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on October 21, 2018, 10:22:22 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 21, 2018, 08:55:58 AM

@Exflyboy - I don't enjoy traveling enough to go for that long, but know that about myself in advance. We are considering having one primary residence in retirement (likely California coast area), and then two vacation houses. We'll rent the other two vacation houses, and then use them as we'd like. We have a vacation house currently, and really enjoy the comforts of being "at home", like the aspect of having some work to do on maintenance to keep us busy, etc.

Where would your vacation houses be?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 22, 2018, 12:29:18 AM

You guys are amazing.   I really almost don't believe at times I am your peer.  You are all doing incredible things that most only dream about.  We're getting to the place you are soon.  I just had a money conversation with a really smart coworker.  One that gets it.  I revealed our current stash amount and there was no look of amazement, because the person understands money.  The person had the perfect explanation for how some accumulate wealth and use money as a tool and others money is a burden.   The person said, it's because of decisions we made very early in life. We tried harder and put in the time to create our path forward.  I thirst for this in a sea of nonmustacianism.  Please keep shaing your stories.  I don't have a lot of local friends I can have these conversations with.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 22, 2018, 01:27:25 PM

@JoJoP - we currently have one house on the Oregon coast that we will keep. It's a couple of hours from my family, so we already spend quite a bit of time there, and it gets a lot of family use. We are considering Hawaii for the other, but the math hasn't worked out so far. Not sure if it ever will, with the extraordinary costs. We're having coffee with a friend who has had a rental for an extended period of time to sanity check some of our number estimates.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 26, 2018, 08:19:36 AM

So this thread has gone quiet as most of us have probably been kicked out of the club.. Temporarily..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on October 26, 2018, 08:58:10 AM

Ah.....   I updated my investments spread sheet today, just for fun.  Equities had been getting higher as a % before this latest slide.  I'm almost back to exactly 50/50, where my target is.  The silver lining, I guess is that I don't have to rebalance.  It's done for me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 26, 2018, 09:11:59 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 26, 2018, 08:19:36 AM

So this thread has gone quiet as most of us have probably been kicked out of the club.. Temporarily..:)

As of today Mint says 1.925  Looking at the current market could be going lower.  Got three houses, two paid off.  I not completely a poser. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 26, 2018, 09:19:45 AM

I really hope this is the start of the looming recession.   It's inevitable so I  personally want it now.  I've decided to extend to 2020 for FIRE and the recovery could be timed right for me.  Who knows.   Still buying,  we'll probably toss in another 150K or more of new money by 2020.  Medicare for all would make me consider going earlier.  If not I still have my Cadillac plan as long as I work.  With the Cadi I don't qualify for a HSA.  Guess the Roth can supplant that somewhat. 

Keep posting guys.  I enjoy your company.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 26, 2018, 10:51:41 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 26, 2018, 09:19:45 AM

I really hope this is the start of the looming recession.   It's inevitable so I  personally want it now.  I've decided to extend to 2020 for FIRE and the recovery could be timed right for me.  Who knows.   Still buying,  we'll probably toss in another 150K or more of new money by 2020.  Medicare for all would make me consider going earlier.  If not I still have my Cadillac plan as long as I work.  With the Cadi I don't qualify for a HSA.  Guess the Roth can supplant that somewhat. 

Keep posting guys.  I enjoy your company.

I don't think the recession is on the horizon yet.

If I count my "funny money" aka pension I'm still well in the club.. But if we get to a 25%+ pullback I maybe out.. I'll be rolling more into stocks from my bond funds at that point though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 26, 2018, 03:08:20 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 26, 2018, 08:19:36 AM

So this thread has gone quiet as most of us have probably been kicked out of the club.. Temporarily..:)

Or we're just busy doing other things besides checking our account balances.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on October 26, 2018, 06:05:18 PM

Y'all get no sympathy from us peons =P

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 26, 2018, 08:58:11 PM

Still there, but only with our property value included

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on October 26, 2018, 11:20:09 PM

Still here too, as a high % of my NE is property.

But with Sydney property values sliding, the AUD falling against the USD, and now my stock portfolio having palpitations, no matter how much I can save of my salary I am still slipping backwards.

@Bateaux, we’re not joining you in OMY yet, and it remains unlikely, but the topic has been floated over the dinner table.

We have a bit of a tax issue, driving us to fIRE this coming June. That, and I have had enough of working.

In Australia, if you are an expat you can rent out your home in Australia for upto 6 years (6 year rule)and if you return within that time frame your home can retain CGT exempt status. 6 years will hit us in early 2020. As our home has appreciated in value a lot over the past 5 years, and as we intend to sell in the next 5 years the CGT exemption is worth quite a lot to us, maybe $80-100K. We’d have to work many extra months to offset that tax if we don’t get back to Oz within 6years.

Tax laws have changed whilst we have been abroad, and we have a window to sell before 30 June this year and not pay any CGT. Out tenants lease expires in March, so one option for us is to sell between March and June, and then we could keep working OS for a year or 2 longer, but then we wouldn’t have a home in Sydney to return to. As we had lived in Sydney our whole lives before heading OS for work, closing the door on Sydney right now feels very final and something we are not super comfortable with. Ideally we will return artiste to Sydney and then from our Sydney base start exploring where our long term Post FIRE home will be. We have no real idea today.

But like you, the security of a little more in the kitty would sure be nice.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 27, 2018, 10:27:02 AM

Itchy good luck with it all and I'm personally cheering for you to get to FIRE as early as possible.   Don't OMY unless you have to.   
I got out on my bicycle yesterday and rode around Baton Rouge, Louisiana.   I normally ride in New Orleans.   I live between the two cities.  It is amazing the difference between the two.   New Orleans, the Big Easy is so laid back and almost stress free.  Automobile drivers see you on a bike and happily yield to you giving you a safe distance.  Baton Rouge is a stressed out city.  Everyone is in a hurry to be at work and in a hurry to be home.  In a hurry to get wherever it is they are going.  I have to be extra careful and cautious when there on my bicycle.   Baton Rouge has the potential to be a wonderful place if it would just slow down, park the car and encourage walking or biking.  OMY syndrome is living Baton Rouge style and FIRE is New Orleans style.   New Orleans culture is what I was raised on.  So I'm ready to FIRE.  November the 6th is a huge day here in the US.  Depending upon how Americans vote will say a lot about when I FIRE.  The main issue is with affordable health care.
Good luck.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: onlykelsey on October 28, 2018, 06:24:06 AM

Still nowhere near there (I was at about 780K earlier this fall, including equity, and now at 706K) but I'm trying to think of this as good timing for me since I'm still accumulating.

@Bateaux , that's so interesting.  What are the big employers in Baton Rouge?  Is that where the difference in culture comes from?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 28, 2018, 09:53:07 PM

Quote from: onlykelsey on October 28, 2018, 06:24:06 AM

Still nowhere near there (I was at about 780K earlier this fall, including equity, and now at 706K) but I'm trying to think of this as good timing for me since I'm still accumulating.

@Bateaux , that's so interesting.  What are the big employers in Baton Rouge?  Is that where the difference in culture comes from?

Baton Rouge is largely a blue collar town.  Lot's of oil refineries and chemical plants.  It's also the capital city so there are government jobs as well.  New Orleans is mainly a tourist destination.   Not much manufacturing in NOLA these days. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 29, 2018, 08:55:38 AM

Aww crap.. why is it the juicy pullbacks happen when I'm on vacation? I really don't like delving into my online accounts from unknown WIFI connections... Two days before we leave Europe and the market is on its way back up.

So much for that re-balance!

Hopefully it will take another dive later this week.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on October 29, 2018, 07:28:16 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 26, 2018, 08:19:36 AM

So this thread has gone quiet as most of us have probably been kicked out of the club.. Temporarily..:)

Nah, we're just waiting for you to get home from your trip and liven things up again. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on October 29, 2018, 07:40:15 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 29, 2018, 08:55:38 AM

Aww crap.. why is it the juicy pullbacks happen when I'm on vacation? I really don't like delving into my online accounts from unknown WIFI connections... Two days before we leave Europe and the market is on its way back up.

So much for that re-balance!

Hopefully it will take another dive later this week.

U spoke a bit too soon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 30, 2018, 04:03:21 AM

I did speak too soon.. But as I will be back on Thursday I expect the market to be fully recovered by then...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 30, 2018, 07:36:00 AM

Our 401Ks are down six figures, so that hurts, but we won't be making any changes there. I was sitting on an enormous pile of cash while we decided next steps on investing, so that was serendipitous. We also have a ton tied up in publicly traded company stock options, so we are down about $300K month on month. There have been some minor (compared to the stock) housing adjustments as well in there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 30, 2018, 10:30:16 AM

Ouch! I just checked one of our accounts and it's dipped below $1M. It's not our only one, but it's the easiest one to look up and has the best graphics. I tend to be an accumulator, and when the market does these dips, I like to throw our extra cash in. It's market timing, but only in a little tiny way, it's not our whole financial plan, lol. It's killing me not to do this right now, but we're in the middle of a flip and I don't want to end up short of cash at the end of the project. MPP for sure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on October 30, 2018, 11:43:32 AM

sign me up for the “Yikes! I lost over $100K in October Club” too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 01, 2018, 02:12:50 PM

I was down about 300k as well but the last 3 days are bring it back some so a little of the sting gone. Its gonna do what its gonna do. I had some cash I was just gonna put in the other day and it bounced so I will wait.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 01, 2018, 06:56:14 PM

So I get back home today and of course the market is one its way back up.. No rebalance for me (probably)...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on November 02, 2018, 09:04:16 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 26, 2018, 08:19:36 AM

So this thread has gone quiet as most of us have probably been kicked out of the club.. Temporarily..:)

Probably true in my case but I just don't check so I don't feel bad. I'm going on vacation starting tomorrow so that will keep me distracted for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 02, 2018, 11:13:12 AM

Indeed, I don't check my NW very often since crossing the 2MM threshold.  I have more than enough in NW and I'm still earning and stashing pretty handily.  If I happen to slip out of the club due to a market correction or collapse, I'll still be putting money in and eventually return to 2 or more million.  It was much harder in my 20's (earning 40k vs. high federal and state tax) vs. now...

I spend more time these days gaming my airline and hotel status for freebies :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 02, 2018, 11:43:14 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 02, 2018, 11:13:12 AM

Indeed, I don't check my NW very often since crossing the 2MM threshold.  I have more than enough in NW and I'm still earning and stashing pretty handily.  If I happen to slip out of the club due to a market correction or collapse, I'll still be putting money in and eventually return to 2 or more million.  It was much harder in my 20's (earning 40k vs. high federal and state tax) vs. now...

I spend more time these days gaming my airline and hotel status for freebies :)

This "almost" makes me want to go back to work.. almost..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 02, 2018, 01:32:19 PM

I just did a rebalance of the portfolio and was pleasantly surprised our liquid investments are only about $50k below membership level.

Pensions and paid off house puts us firmly back in of course.

Not too bad at all. If this is the start to an ugly bear market I will gradually increase my stock allocation on the way down, because.. well why not?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 11, 2018, 06:41:05 PM

Still about 35K below club level in investment assets.   We've recovered from the worst but, still about 80K or so down from the peak.  We'd be in go get a job territory if we didn't already have jobs. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 12, 2018, 10:39:15 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 11, 2018, 06:41:05 PM

Still about 35K below club level in investment assets.   We've recovered from the worst but, still about 80K or so down from the peak.  We'd be in go get a job territory if we didn't already have jobs.

Yo're probably further "out" today.. Mind you you can accumulate some more on the way down, I might have to start drawing a pension at this rate..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 13, 2018, 09:56:42 AM

My plan has always been to work through the next recession.   Problem is the recession has been too long in coming.   I'm wanting to FIRE post recovery in order to avoid the stress of spending down principal.   Work isn't nearly as stressful to me as spending  savings in a recession.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 13, 2018, 01:49:21 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 13, 2018, 09:56:42 AM

My plan has always been to work through the next recession.   Problem is the recession has been too long in coming.   I'm wanting to FIRE post recovery in order to avoid the stress of spending down principal.   Work isn't nearly as stressful to me as spending  savings in a recession.

Yeah I know what you mean.. Trouble is left to me it would have been OMD... (one more decade).!!!

I just did an end of year spending projection and it came out to a 1.5% WR, even with some mighty one off expenditures and a "yuge" vacation at $6k... Sometimes enough really is enough!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 13, 2018, 08:09:40 PM

It's helpful to do those projections because it provides the big picture which helps to calm the nerves during these trying times.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on November 14, 2018, 08:02:25 AM

I'd rather keep working than spend down principal. No matter how big my 'stashe is, I just can't bear to see it go down.   We're self employed, so "work" has flexibility and can be anything we want it to be.  Most young people would call our work a "side hustle,"  even though, post FIRE, it's the only hustle we've got.   Our retirement is based on real estate rental income, so there's always some DIY aspect to it.  But, nonetheless, dipping into principal is the antithesis of my climb to wealth.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on November 14, 2018, 11:39:05 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on November 14, 2018, 08:02:25 AM

I'd rather keep working than spend down principal. No matter how big my 'stashe is, I just can't bear to see it go down.   We're self employed, so "work" has flexibility and can be anything we want it to be.  Most young people would call our work a "side hustle,"  even though, post FIRE, it's the only hustle we've got.   Our retirement is based on real estate rental income, so there's always some DIY aspect to it.  But, nonetheless, dipping into principal is the antithesis of my climb to wealth.

So, joining the 2065 cohort then? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 15, 2018, 09:26:45 AM

And the stock market continues its march downward.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 15, 2018, 12:22:11 PM

and now its turning up.. something must have happened?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 16, 2018, 09:02:55 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 15, 2018, 09:26:45 AM

And the stock market continues its march downward.

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 15, 2018, 12:22:11 PM

and now its turning up.. something must have happened?

Didn't really notice the time, but today when I logged on to the account that had slipped below $1M last time I checked, I was pleased to see it's back up over $1M. Apropos of nothing, really, because we're not changing anything. Just watching the bouncing ball.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on November 16, 2018, 10:45:11 PM

I lurk on this thread from time to time because I can’t wait to join. We are somewhere a little north of $1.8 depending on the market’s mood, not counting house equity. In the meantime I’ll get inspiration here and just keep swimming...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 17, 2018, 02:48:52 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on November 16, 2018, 10:45:11 PM

I lurk on this thread from time to time because I can’t wait to join. We are somewhere a little north of $1.8 depending on the market’s mood, not counting house equity. In the meantime I’ll get inspiration here and just keep swimming...

Are you RE'd yet Ysette or still accumulating? If accumulating I suspect that we might have a couple of down years then you'll pop up to $2M+ quite rapidly, depending on your allocation..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 18, 2018, 01:44:22 AM

I've recently become friends with someone that is a world adventurer and successful business owner.  I hope to have a conversation  with him about FIRE this coming week.  I hope to hear that I'm FIRE ready by 2020.  I know I should be able to make the decision on my own.  Like a medical diagnosis, I think it's best to have multiple opinions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 18, 2018, 04:29:47 AM

With being fire'd and investing only about 1k a month so much is dependent on the market so I haven't been able to get back over the number since the decline BUT have moved about a third of the way back. Is what it is. Happy to be at least where I am in the conversation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 18, 2018, 10:56:45 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 18, 2018, 04:29:47 AM

With being fire'd and investing only about 1k a month so much is dependent on the market so I haven't been able to get back over the number since the decline BUT have moved about a third of the way back. Is what it is. Happy to be at least where I am in the conversation.

I'm confused.. You're FIRED and you are investing $1k per month?? How so?.. Montser rental income or some other firehose of cash?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 18, 2018, 04:13:35 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 18, 2018, 10:56:45 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 18, 2018, 04:29:47 AM

With being fire'd and investing only about 1k a month so much is dependent on the market so I haven't been able to get back over the number since the decline BUT have moved about a third of the way back. Is what it is. Happy to be at least where I am in the conversation.

I'm confused.. You're FIRED and you are investing $1k per month?? How so?.. Montser rental income or some other firehose of cash?

I'm fire'd. My wife after 2 years because of the Healthcare Unknowns and having 4 kids took a flexible job that allows us to get the  benefits and some income. Should of clarified better. But we hit a tad above 3 then the market tanked and we did some remodeling and stuff but hoping to get back there . We will see.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on November 19, 2018, 12:12:17 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 17, 2018, 02:48:52 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on November 16, 2018, 10:45:11 PM

I lurk on this thread from time to time because I can’t wait to join. We are somewhere a little north of $1.8 depending on the market’s mood, not counting house equity. In the meantime I’ll get inspiration here and just keep swimming...

Are you RE'd yet Ysette or still accumulating? If accumulating I suspect that we might have a couple of down years then you'll pop up to $2M+ quite rapidly, depending on your allocation..:)

Still accumulating. In 2018 we will have saved something north of $200k between all accounts and should hopefully be able to do similarly next year, so I feel like we are sprinting to the finish line. But as you allude to, the market forces really are the ones that determine when we will reach our number at this stage of the game. We are supposed to be moving more into bonds now in preparation of reaching FI. Something for my husband and I to discuss in more detail during our next money date.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on November 19, 2018, 03:06:13 PM

As members of this club it is interesting to watch our NW move in big swings lately.  Prior to 2018 the US market has had very volatility for several years and big swings were unusual.  This year has had periods of high volatility.

Having your NW drop more than a full year of expenses in under 24 hours can be disconcerting.  But then we remember that we carry sufficient reserves to carry us through most historical downturns.

We are big believers in having Fat-FIRE assets coupled with Thin-FIRE or normal FIRE expenses.  We would much rather have excess money in old age than being worried about running out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 19, 2018, 08:07:30 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on November 19, 2018, 03:06:13 PM

As members of this club it is interesting to watch our NW move in big swings lately.  Prior to 2018 the US market has had very volatility for several years and big swings were unusual.  This year has had periods of high volatility.

Having your NW drop more than a full year of expenses in under 24 hours can be disconcerting.  But then we remember that we carry sufficient reserves to carry us through most historical downturns.

We are big believers in having Fat-FIRE assets coupled with Thin-FIRE or normal FIRE expenses.  We would much rather have excess money in old age than being worried about running out.

Same here.. We are running at about 13 years worth expenses in Bond funds (8 years if you don't count our rental income).. That should be sufficient..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 20, 2018, 07:31:03 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 19, 2018, 08:07:30 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on November 19, 2018, 03:06:13 PM

As members of this club it is interesting to watch our NW move in big swings lately.  Prior to 2018 the US market has had very volatility for several years and big swings were unusual.  This year has had periods of high volatility.

Having your NW drop more than a full year of expenses in under 24 hours can be disconcerting.  But then we remember that we carry sufficient reserves to carry us through most historical downturns.

We are big believers in having Fat-FIRE assets coupled with Thin-FIRE or normal FIRE expenses.  We would much rather have excess money in old age than being worried about running out.

Same here.. We are running at about 13 years worth expenses in Bond funds (8 years if you don't count our rental income).. That should be sufficient..:)

Instead of another race to thread, should we call the next level the "Race to Fat FIRE?"

I like it, I like it a lot.   Now, to get our accounts moving forward again and not backwards.  The bear is starting to roar.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 20, 2018, 10:44:51 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 20, 2018, 07:31:03 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 19, 2018, 08:07:30 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on November 19, 2018, 03:06:13 PM

As members of this club it is interesting to watch our NW move in big swings lately.  Prior to 2018 the US market has had very volatility for several years and big swings were unusual.  This year has had periods of high volatility.

Having your NW drop more than a full year of expenses in under 24 hours can be disconcerting.  But then we remember that we carry sufficient reserves to carry us through most historical downturns.

We are big believers in having Fat-FIRE assets coupled with Thin-FIRE or normal FIRE expenses.  We would much rather have excess money in old age than being worried about running out.

Same here.. We are running at about 13 years worth expenses in Bond funds (8 years if you don't count our rental income).. That should be sufficient..:)

Instead of another race to thread, should we call the next level the "Race to Fat FIRE?"

I like it, I like it a lot.   Now, to get our accounts moving forward again and not backwards.  The bear is starting to roar.

Oh how about just a race to fat?..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on November 20, 2018, 08:11:03 PM

Race to Fat?  A funny, yet somehow depressing name for someone on a diet...  I just lost about 15 lbs and I'm so proud of it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on November 21, 2018, 06:56:14 AM

Congrats! Good luck on your journey.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 21, 2018, 07:39:19 AM

I don't track net worth to determine FI.   It is a flawed measurement when it comes to determining FI.

I track Post FIRE income vs expenses.   It's the only accurate measurement. :)   That's because there are many ways to get income Post FIRE, stock and bond sales, dividends, interest, rent, royalties, oil well profit sharing, etc.  There are so very many ways to make money in this country!

Net worth is about 2.5 million.

About a $1 million in real estate rental property or farm land, owned free and clear.  About 300k on our home, with a mortgage of 158k remaining.  The rest in stocks, bonds and cash.

The relevant numbers for FI are expenses about $75k and non-stock/bond income between $70k and 80k, with the remainder coming from stock and bond sales as needed.  So I don't worry all that much about the stock market dropping in value.  That means I'm not particularly concerned about the sequence of returns risk.

Once I get the rental I'm working on and another one up and running, I shouldn't normally need to sell stocks or bonds at all.

And I confess I'm not real motivated to "race" to $3m.  I think I'll putter around doing things I want to do and let my stocks do all that heavy lifting for me. :)   

Here's a visual for how I'll go about it:


Me, sitting on the porch sipping a mint julep, "Vanguard!  Fetch me another dividend and some stock appreciation please.  Thankee kindly!"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on November 22, 2018, 09:47:39 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on November 21, 2018, 06:56:14 AM

Congrats! Good luck on your journey.

Thanks Ysette9.  Sometimes I think it's easier to make money than to lose weight and be fitter.  Both are lifestyle choices based on a lifetime of micro-decisions. 

I see you have a husband, which generally means you're female.  I am also.  I'm curious...Are there other females on this thread? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 22, 2018, 11:38:45 AM

Yup.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 22, 2018, 11:54:18 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on November 22, 2018, 09:47:39 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on November 21, 2018, 06:56:14 AM

Congrats! Good luck on your journey.

Thanks Ysette9.  Sometimes I think it's easier to make money than to lose weight and be fitter.  Both are lifestyle choices based on a lifetime of micro-decisions. 

I see you have a husband, which generally means you're female.  I am also.  I'm curious...Are there other females on this thread?

There are many! Not sure what the ratio is but seems 50/50 maybe more on the Females side

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 22, 2018, 05:37:23 PM

Isn't 2.5 million enough?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikbQPldhPY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikbQPldhPY)

Is this still valid advice?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on November 22, 2018, 09:41:15 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 22, 2018, 11:54:18 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on November 22, 2018, 09:47:39 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on November 21, 2018, 06:56:14 AM

Congrats! Good luck on your journey.

Thanks Ysette9.  Sometimes I think it's easier to make money than to lose weight and be fitter.  Both are lifestyle choices based on a lifetime of micro-decisions. 

I see you have a husband, which generally means you're female.  I am also.  I'm curious...Are there other females on this thread?

There are many! Not sure what the ratio is but seems 50/50 maybe more on the Females side

Oh really? I had always thought that the forums were more heavily skewed to male, though I’m not sure where I picked up that impression.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 24, 2018, 05:19:56 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 22, 2018, 05:37:23 PM

Isn't 2.5 million enough?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikbQPldhPY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikbQPldhPY)

Is this still valid advice?

I'd say so , pretty much what I went by. Always love that video!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on November 24, 2018, 07:32:50 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 24, 2018, 05:19:56 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 22, 2018, 05:37:23 PM

Isn't 2.5 million enough?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikbQPldhPY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikbQPldhPY)

Is this still valid advice?

I'd say so , pretty much what I went by. Always love that video!

I hadn’t seen that video before. 😆

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 24, 2018, 09:53:26 AM

That video has become my go to when I have to tell myself to stop fretting over market pullbacks..

$2.5M.. Yes it really is a fortress of f,,,g solitude!!!..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 24, 2018, 10:46:39 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on November 24, 2018, 07:32:50 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 24, 2018, 05:19:56 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 22, 2018, 05:37:23 PM

Isn't 2.5 million enough?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikbQPldhPY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikbQPldhPY)

Is this still valid advice?

I'd say so , pretty much what I went by. Always love that video!

I hadn’t seen that video before. 😆

Me neither. Love, love, love it!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on November 24, 2018, 11:00:53 AM

Wow! It's better than the original.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on November 24, 2018, 11:14:36 AM

So good

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 24, 2018, 03:38:31 PM

I watch both both versions at least once a month.  2.5 million is the goal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 25, 2018, 03:54:34 AM

Sadly though, as the video ends, it reminds me that America is going deeper into debt and even hitting the accelerator...  the majority will never learn.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 25, 2018, 06:42:50 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 25, 2018, 03:54:34 AM

Sadly though, as the video ends, it reminds me that America is going deeper into debt and even hitting the accelerator...  the majority will never learn.

I had this scary thought as I read your comment.  Government is going crazy about borrowing money as they protect the very rich people and corporations from paying taxes. (among other reasons)  They are spending a lot of money they don't have.  This is increasing the money in circulation.  I've been taught a higher money supply is inflationary.

Right now 2-3 million dollars is plenty.  Can the excessive deficit spending reduce that amount and wipe out some of the hard work all the folks have done here to earn it?  As the video said we are f*&king it up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 26, 2018, 06:37:07 PM

 Government deficit spending it is not necessarily a bad thing. When interest rates are extraordinarily low government deficit spending is actually what will help pick an economy up from the ground.
When there is deficit spending during peak economic growth then the deficit spending can crowd out private borrowing which can cause inflation and drive up interest rates. When interest rates go up that’s when businesses endure higher interest payments. Mortgages And borrowing gets too expensive, and housing and construction can suffer which can lead to a recession.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 27, 2018, 03:19:25 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 26, 2018, 06:37:07 PM

Government deficit spending it is not necessarily a bad thing. When interest rates are extraordinarily low government deficit spending is actually what will help pick an economy up from the ground.
When there is deficit spending during peak economic growth then the deficit spending can crowd out private borrowing which can cause inflation and drive up interest rates. When interest rates go up that’s when businesses endure higher interest payments. Mortgages And borrowing gets too expensive, and housing and construction can suffer which can lead to a recession.

^+1

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 27, 2018, 08:05:53 AM

The national debt can grow at a rate that is sustainable, it's the debt to GDP ratio that's a better metric. If the nominal GDP grows 6% a year, the national debt can grow to that level as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 28, 2018, 06:06:30 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 27, 2018, 08:05:53 AM

The national debt can grow at a rate that is sustainable, it's the debt to GDP ratio that's a better metric. If the nominal GDP grows 6% a year, the national debt can grow to that level as well.

Good points in theory, but when the economy is humming along, it's typically a good time to start to balance the budget or at least stay below the historic average.  We are going in to the 10th year of GDP expansion (last contracted in 2009 (https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp)) and are voluntarily accelerating the spending deficit (by cutting taxes, increasing government spending, etc) since 2015.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#/media/File:CBO_Deficits_pct_GDP_1968-2028.png

It doesn't take a genius to think about what will happen when GDP shrinks during a recession, government spending needs to increase to stimulate the economy, tax revenue is already low, and the heavy hitters like Medicare are increasing...  I guess Boomers should be thanking the next generations in advance for being willing to take cuts to our Medicare and Social Security benefits!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 30, 2018, 08:37:49 PM

The expanding deficit primarily occurred because of the business tax cuts, not because of increased government spending.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 01, 2018, 07:39:28 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 30, 2018, 08:37:49 PM

The expanding deficit primarily occurred because of the business tax cuts, not because of increased government spending.

Were these tax cuts good or were they bad?  The government has to borrow more and so we end up paying the original cost + interest.  However, a couple days ago I talked to a small business owner and learned what an enormous tax small businessmen have to pay.

I don't believe in the Laffer curve.  I also don't believe in crippling business.

Too much tax will stop the 2-3 million dollar race.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 01, 2018, 11:46:42 AM

Quote from: pecunia on December 01, 2018, 07:39:28 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 30, 2018, 08:37:49 PM

The expanding deficit primarily occurred because of the business tax cuts, not because of increased government spending.

Were these tax cuts good or were they bad?  The government has to borrow more and so we end up paying the original cost + interest.  However, a couple days ago I talked to a small business owner and learned what an enormous tax small businessmen have to pay.

I don't believe in the Laffer curve.  I also don't believe in crippling business.

Too much tax will stop the 2-3 million dollar race.

I really doubt the taxes are so enormous - sounded like a complainypants.

When you have a small business you get to deduct for just about everything you can think of, which lowers the business income.
If this person is making so much money that he's complaining that he doesn't have enough to buy a 3rd house and a 4th Mercedes then no I don't feel sorry for him.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 01, 2018, 12:00:50 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on December 01, 2018, 11:46:42 AM

Quote from: pecunia on December 01, 2018, 07:39:28 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 30, 2018, 08:37:49 PM

The expanding deficit primarily occurred because of the business tax cuts, not because of increased government spending.

Were these tax cuts good or were they bad?  The government has to borrow more and so we end up paying the original cost + interest.  However, a couple days ago I talked to a small business owner and learned what an enormous tax small businessmen have to pay.

I don't believe in the Laffer curve.  I also don't believe in crippling business.

Too much tax will stop the 2-3 million dollar race.

- SNIP -

When you have a small business you get to deduct for just about everything you can think of, which lowers the business income.
If this person is making so much money that he's complaining that he doesn't have enough to buy a 3rd house and a 4th Mercedes then no I don't feel sorry for him.

He's a Mississippi boy.  It would have been another pickup and not a Mercedes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on December 02, 2018, 12:31:21 PM

Mercedes pickup.....

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RvuPchQZKL4/hqdefault.jpg)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 21, 2018, 02:41:26 PM

Time to rename the thread Race from $3M to $2M :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on December 21, 2018, 02:57:02 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 21, 2018, 02:41:26 PM

Time to rename the thread Race from $3M to $2M :)

LOL, I was just thinking that same thing when I saw this thread in my updated topics list.  I am down well over 10% since the peak.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 21, 2018, 03:28:48 PM

I used to be in this club.... Are we allowed to count pensions?..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on December 22, 2018, 02:29:28 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 21, 2018, 03:28:48 PM

I used to be in this club.... Are we allowed to count pensions?..:)

I was always counting everything and am still gamely hanging in just above entry level, with all my chips on the table... even had to throw in the loose coins that fell down the back of the sofa.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 22, 2018, 05:29:52 AM

I’m pretty sure my net worth has now dropped below $2 million. Thanks Trump

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 22, 2018, 08:23:19 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 21, 2018, 03:28:48 PM

I used to be in this club.... Are we allowed to count pensions?..:)

I didn't before, but I did count my paid for house and other RE equity. Now, I think I'll have to include DH's Defined Benefit Pension. Thank Dog there is one and that includes a decent amount of healthcare coverage.

I can't say for sure, because I'M NOT CHECKING BALANCES RIGHT NOW!!!!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Mr Griz on December 22, 2018, 08:34:24 AM

I retired at the end of October and haven’t looked at the market since. I’m vaguely aware that it’s down a bit lately.  The main reason I can do this is a combination of a pension & some deferred compensation that will pay out over the next 3-5 years. Still, it’s nice to be able to ride out this dip without fretting about it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 22, 2018, 11:43:31 AM

Oh yeah, realistically at these levels the market could be cut in half and really would make zero difference to us.

It just doesn't FEEL that way..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 23, 2018, 05:52:20 AM

Hard not to notice drop as was closing in on fatfire SWR of 4% but have moved from a 4.2% at the high to a 4.8% now.

Doesn't really matter I guess, more importantly the new half-time gig which covers our expenses is going well.  A move from 70hrs/wk to zero would have left me floundering I think, this is easing me into the what do I do with my free time so I think is the right balance for now

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 23, 2018, 12:33:01 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on December 22, 2018, 05:29:52 AM

I’m pretty sure my net worth has now dropped below $2 million. Thanks Trump

Is he really to blame?  Was the dip in stocks just due since we've had a long business cycle?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 23, 2018, 01:36:57 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 23, 2018, 12:33:01 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on December 22, 2018, 05:29:52 AM

I’m pretty sure my net worth has now dropped below $2 million. Thanks Trump

Is he really to blame?  Was the dip in stocks just due since we've had a long business cycle?

Probably not to blame long term, but he's doing some thing now which are certainly not helping in the short term.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 23, 2018, 01:52:08 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 23, 2018, 01:36:57 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 23, 2018, 12:33:01 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on December 22, 2018, 05:29:52 AM

I’m pretty sure my net worth has now dropped below $2 million. Thanks Trump

Is he really to blame?  Was the dip in stocks just due since we've had a long business cycle?

Probably not to blame long term, but he's doing some thing now which are certainly not helping in the short term.

I'd say he deserves the same amount of credit no matter which way the market goes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: mjr on December 23, 2018, 03:13:53 PM

Aren't there enough Trump-attacking/hysteria threads even in this forum without introducing him into another one ?

You yanks need another hobby....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 23, 2018, 10:09:08 PM

Quote from: mjr on December 23, 2018, 03:13:53 PM

Aren't there enough Trump-attacking/hysteria threads even in this forum without introducing him into another one ?

You yanks need another hobby....

I like it.   And,......I agree.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 24, 2018, 02:03:08 PM

I commented to DH that we should dump this year's and next year's Roth money into the market while it's a trash can fire. He said he thought we did it early in 2018. Damn! I couldn't bear to look at our account balances, so I had him look for me, but only after he promised not to tell. Yup, it seems we did. Double damn!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 24, 2018, 02:21:21 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 24, 2018, 02:03:08 PM

I commented to DH that we should dump this year's and next year's Roth money into the market while it's a trash can fire. He said he thought we did it early in 2018. Damn! I couldn't bear to look at our account balances, so I had him look for me, but only after he promised not to tell. Yup, it seems we did. Double damn!

Double damn indeed.. But in the grand scheme of things this will also be insignificant in a few short years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 25, 2018, 12:02:38 AM

Down 250K thusfar.  Sure makes having to work Christmas Eve and Christmas Day  a lot easier for me. 
A few years ago my FIRE goal was 1.5 million.   Well that'd be more than another 250K drop from here.  Unfortunately the current 2.5 million goal may not be reachable by my August 2020 goal date.  FIRE isn't even up for discussion for me sub 2 million.  It's OMY,OMY,  indefinitely till that returns for sure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on December 25, 2018, 04:27:11 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 25, 2018, 12:02:38 AM

It's OMY,OMY,  indefinitely till that returns for sure.

Or you drop dead.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 25, 2018, 07:00:36 AM

While we would need to drop what we recently have plus maybe a little more to fall out of this category I am not one that overly worries about it everyday or am going to change things BUT i do look and it stings a bit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on December 25, 2018, 08:24:36 AM

I have heard vague headlines of the market dropping around me but haven’t actually logged into anything to look. Everything is on auto pilot and I set my 401(k) contribution last week to put 100% of my bonus into it. I’m also going to front-load the $19k by having 0 take-home until I reach that limit. The plan is to also do 50% after-tax contribution until I reach the $55k limit, if our cash flow works out. I wouldn’t really have thought of front loading contributions but I got on some financial forums at work and the people there are SO savvy, and I am feeling the peer pressure to front load. ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: XC1984 on December 28, 2018, 12:35:24 PM

I'm new here (at least new at posting), and $2-$3M group seems to be where I am. I was on that traditional retire at 65 path, and really course corrected about 3 years ago after googling "How much is enough" and discovering the FIRE movement on the internet. I'm 52, working as a mid-level corporate manager, and my wife works in the service industry in Southern CA. I started transforming my life toward Mustachianism without knowing it about three years ago - renting out our suburban house, moving to a 2 bedroom near work, and eliminating a 3-hour round-trip commute. Now I save about 1/3 of my annual income and have liquid investments of about $2.4M. I'm targeting quitting my job in about four years at 56 when our youngest is through college and that large variable is behind us. Though I know I could go FIRE today, we would like to move back to our home community in the suburbs to stay long term, and that isn't exactly inexpensive.

I can't say I can closely relate to the 30-somethings retiring on $40k a year, but I believe these principles can be applied by anyone's situation wherever they are at. It has certainly changed my perspective and direction, and I appreciate reading all of these stories!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on December 28, 2018, 02:39:09 PM

For those of us in this group, what are your budgeted and actual annual expenses? (Intentional selection bias here)

Are you budgeting around 4% WR or are you planning a lower WR

We budget $60K but our actual this year will be about $45K

Edited to add Trad to Roth conversion tax payment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: mjr on December 28, 2018, 03:19:40 PM

I've been retired and without the cash firehose for 5 months.  My WR for the 1st year looks like it'll be nearly 1% (low twenty thousands..)

After I get used to it and after the recent share market carnage has passed, maybe I'll up my spending to 2% !

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 28, 2018, 04:14:51 PM

Oh boy.. flame suit on.

When I retired in 2014 (to limit the shame of too many OMY's) I planned 2.8%.... Assuming we got out of the rental business.

Coming up on 5 years post fire (ignore my profitable part time gigs) and the actual was 1.5%.. I stayed in the rental business and the portfolio has grown a lot.

Our expenditure went up by 43% last year... Planned $35,000 Actual $50,000.

We have future pensions too.. I assume we are very much outliers as on paper we have chronically over saved.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on December 28, 2018, 07:48:06 PM

Well on the opposite end of the spending spectrum, we are planning on around $100k a year, u too the mortgage is paid off, unless we move elsewhere, which is probably only a low probability at this point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 28, 2018, 11:21:21 PM

Quote from: XC1984 on December 28, 2018, 12:35:24 PM

I'm new here (at least new at posting), and $2-$3M group seems to be where I am. I was on that traditional retire at 65 path, and really course corrected about 3 years ago after googling "How much is enough" and discovering the FIRE movement on the internet. I'm 52, working as a mid-level corporate manager, and my wife works in the service industry in Southern CA. I started transforming my life toward Mustachianism without knowing it about three years ago - renting out our suburban house, moving to a 2 bedroom near work, and eliminating a 3-hour round-trip commute. Now I save about 1/3 of my annual income and have liquid investments of about $2.4M. I'm targeting quitting my job in about four years at 56 when our youngest is through college and that large variable is behind us. Though I know I could go FIRE today, we would like to move back to our home community in the suburbs to stay long term, and that isn't exactly inexpensive.

I can't say I can closely relate to the 30-somethings retiring on $40k a year, but I believe these principles can be applied by anyone's situation wherever they are at. It has certainly changed my perspective and direction, and I appreciate reading all of these stories!

Welcome, @XC1984!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 29, 2018, 10:48:21 AM

Update on picking up a financial advisor.  Well he did just help me TLH about $800.  Long story short, I'm a Federal Employee so I'm not funding my IRA for 2019 in the manner I normally do (new cash money) as all cash is being horded until the shutdown is over.  Instead I'm just transferring money from my taxable account.  I didn't really think about which fund to take the money from.  He pointed me to getting the money ready this year by selling the lot from my international fund that had the highest loss for taxes.

As far as my future WR, from my personal investments it could be less than 1%, I have a pension that complicates my planned RE date in a good way. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on December 29, 2018, 02:24:21 PM

We were aiming to FIRE with a 70K USD annual budget plus a paid off house worth around $700K USD.

2018 wasn’t a good year financially for us, so now considering options to either
 1. Delay FIRE (beyond 6/19)
 2. Reduce spending and FIRE as planned
 3. Just roll with a higher than planned draw down rate (something like 4.5% or there abouts).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 09:13:43 AM

I can't imagine I need more than $30-$35k a year to live including taxes. That would be about a 2.3% withdrawal rate for me.
If I were to spend $40k I would feel like I was living a life of ridiculous luxury.

But my plan is to continue to work part-time now that I'm officially retired. I enjoy my work a lot. I'm just reducing all the commuting I used to do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on January 01, 2019, 10:36:42 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 09:13:43 AM

I can't imagine I need more than $30-$35k a year to live including taxes. That would be about a 2.3% withdrawal rate for me.
If I were to spend $40k I would feel like I was living a life of ridiculous luxury.

But my plan is to continue to work part-time now that I'm officially retired. I enjoy my work a lot. I'm just reducing all the commuting I used to do.

Do you mean $30k to $35k plus $20k for health insurance, deductibles, copays and out of network costs?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 10:54:33 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 01, 2019, 10:36:42 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 09:13:43 AM

I can't imagine I need more than $30-$35k a year to live including taxes. That would be about a 2.3% withdrawal rate for me.
If I were to spend $40k I would feel like I was living a life of ridiculous luxury.

But my plan is to continue to work part-time now that I'm officially retired. I enjoy my work a lot. I'm just reducing all the commuting I used to do.

Do you mean $30k to $35k plus $20k for health insurance, deductibles, copays and out of network costs?

I don't pay $20K for health insurance, I'm using Obamacare and I get subsidies, so I pay practically nothing. I don't use medical care so I don't have these yearly deductibles, copays and out of network costs to pay.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 01, 2019, 11:41:25 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 10:54:33 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 01, 2019, 10:36:42 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 09:13:43 AM

I can't imagine I need more than $30-$35k a year to live including taxes. That would be about a 2.3% withdrawal rate for me.
If I were to spend $40k I would feel like I was living a life of ridiculous luxury.

But my plan is to continue to work part-time now that I'm officially retired. I enjoy my work a lot. I'm just reducing all the commuting I used to do.

Do you mean $30k to $35k plus $20k for health insurance, deductibles, copays and out of network costs?

I don't pay $20K for health insurance, I'm using Obamacare and I get subsidies, so I pay practically nothing. I don't use medical care so I don't have these yearly deductibles, copays and out of network costs to pay.

We are in the same boat but this happy situation is somewhat tentative. What if you get cancer and your on a bronze plan.. Well you'll end up writing a check for $13,200 (in our case) plus whatever the insurance company decides they don't cover .. Pre-approval are the first words out of your mouth when the dr proposes a course of treatment!

If we were to have an accident more than about 40 miles away from home we are out of network.. The ACA has basically no protection for OON accident costs (despite what they say), the insurance company will simply pay the OON provider what they pay the in network provider.. you will get balance billed for the rest. This assumes you don't live in one of the very few states where balance billing is illegal.

So yeah, as long as nothing goes wrong then we will pay almost nothing for HC..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on January 01, 2019, 11:57:14 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 01, 2019, 11:41:25 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 10:54:33 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 01, 2019, 10:36:42 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 09:13:43 AM

I can't imagine I need more than $30-$35k a year to live including taxes. That would be about a 2.3% withdrawal rate for me.
If I were to spend $40k I would feel like I was living a life of ridiculous luxury.

But my plan is to continue to work part-time now that I'm officially retired. I enjoy my work a lot. I'm just reducing all the commuting I used to do.

Do you mean $30k to $35k plus $20k for health insurance, deductibles, copays and out of network costs?

I don't pay $20K for health insurance, I'm using Obamacare and I get subsidies, so I pay practically nothing. I don't use medical care so I don't have these yearly deductibles, copays and out of network costs to pay.

We are in the same boat but this happy situation is somewhat tentative. What if you get cancer and your on a bronze plan.. Well you'll end up writing a check for $13,200 (in our case) plus whatever the insurance company decides they don't cover .. Pre-approval are the first words out of your mouth when the dr proposes a course of treatment!

If we were to have an accident more than about 40 miles away from home we are out of network.. The ACA has basically no protection for OON accident costs (despite what they say), the insurance company will simply pay the OON provider what they pay the in network provider.. you will get balance billed for the rest. This assumes you don't live in one of the very few states where balance billing is illegal.

So yeah, as long as nothing goes wrong then we will pay almost nothing for HC..:)

Exactly!  Your health care expenses may be low today but never assume they will always be low.  ACA subsidies are at risk, accidents happen, people get sick, you get old.  I pay <$120 a year for ACA insurance after subsidies and have no other significant medical expenses. But I budget $12K a year for health care (and I suspect this is low). 

One of my biggest peeves with ACA is that if you travel around the country you loose your health care coverage in most cases. 

Sometimes a think this is a conspiracy to keep people trapped in their community and prevent them from traveling to learn what life is like in different places.  Then I take off my tinfoil hat and everything gets better again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 12:22:31 PM

I agree that the healthcare costs are always a possible future burden. That's why I live frugally so that I'll be prepared financially in the event of an expensive health issue.
When I get to be 60 years old I hope to obtain retiree health care from a part time job I have.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 01, 2019, 12:37:46 PM

funny (not) but DW was saying how she would like to drive around the country to visit all the National parks one day. "I don't think thats a good idea" says I due to being wide open to almost any medical cost from a road accident or falling in the parks out of network.

The joke of it is.. We went to Europe in 2018, Ukraine, Slovenia, Croatia, UK and Ireland.. Travelled from Croatia to the UK by train.. Not a care in the World!.. Why? Well we bought travel insurance from Berkshire Hathaway that cost less than $50 for both of us for the 6 weeks.. Yes 50 bucks to anywhere, two people for 6 weeks!

So we can go anywhere in the world but can't visit our own National parks for fear of being made medically bankrupt!

Note I have not looked at the cost of buying a similar policy to cover the USA.. But still

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 01:00:54 PM

Maybe a health insurance travel policy would solve that problem for travel in the US ?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 01, 2019, 02:00:24 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 01:00:54 PM

Maybe a health insurance travel policy would solve that problem for travel in the US ?

Maybe.. Certainly an avenue of research.

I do think we tend to hand wave the medical issues of RE a bit too much. MMM himself kind of brushed it off in his latest but one article telling folks to do what we have done essentially with a bronze plan.

Thats wonderful if you are fit and healthy, but if you got diabetes or cancer (or get it after you RE) then your medical costs are going to skyrocket. So you really ought to plan for an extra $15k+ to be added to your budget just in case.

I couldn't imagine coming down with a life threatening illness and then having to worry about how you are possibly going to pay for it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on January 01, 2019, 02:47:03 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 01:00:54 PM

Maybe a health insurance travel policy would solve that problem for travel in the US ?

I believe I’ve read that travel insurance policies specifically exclude health care in the US. I believe it was GoCurryCracker where I read about that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on January 01, 2019, 07:03:25 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on January 01, 2019, 02:47:03 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 01:00:54 PM

Maybe a health insurance travel policy would solve that problem for travel in the US ?

I believe I’ve read that travel insurance policies specifically exclude health care in the US. I believe it was GoCurryCracker where I read about that.

You are correct.  The US is specifically excluded from most, if not all, travel HC policies.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 01, 2019, 09:54:41 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on January 01, 2019, 07:03:25 PM

-SNIP-

You are correct.  The US is specifically excluded from most, if not all, travel HC policies.

It's almost an incentive to travel internationally after retiring in the US.  An earlier post said about $50 for 6 weeks of travel.

52 weeks in a year / 6 weeks coverage = 8.66 factor for an entire year

50 X 8.7 = 435 bucks for yearly insurance

That is worth some thought.  Maybe a year in the Outback is in order.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on January 02, 2019, 03:59:21 PM

My NW was about $40k higher on December 31 than it was on January 1, but only because my salary offset the market drop.  And I had such high hopes during the good months of 2018--in my more optimistic moments, I thought I might be approaching $3M by now.

Looking back at 2018, I spent just over a 3% WR.  I need to find things to cut, because it doesn't include healthcare, which my employer is currently paying for.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 02, 2019, 05:05:00 PM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on January 02, 2019, 03:59:21 PM

My NW was about $40k higher on December 31 than it was on January 1, but only because my salary offset the market drop.  And I had such high hopes during the good months of 2018--in my more optimistic moments, I thought I might be approaching $3M by now.

Looking back at 2018, I spent just over a 3% WR.  I need to find things to cut, because it doesn't include healthcare, which my employer is currently paying for.

So you're spending $75,000 a  year?  That's a lot of money. What is your mortgage payment $3,000 a month?
What's driving this high amount of spending?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on January 02, 2019, 06:45:38 PM

It *is* high . . . I've figured part of it out.  I took that number from Personal Capital, which doesn't always classify things correctly (for example, my dividends are automatically reinvested, but PC classifies that as an expense), or recognize expenses I get reimbursed for (about $10k in work travel this year, $780 for phone).  Subtracting the things that shouldn't have been included, I'm down to about $60k.  Which is still high. 

(I initially included more detail, but I edited because I'm not comfortable having all of that information in public.  I am comfortable sharing that my mortgage is $24k ($1,800/month + taxes), I went to the eye doctor too many times, spent a lot of money on groceries (despite not eating meat) and on utilities (despite keeping my house at 60 degrees & colder at night), gave more money than usual this year to charities/political campaigns/go-fund-mes, and spent a lot of money on my dog, who recently passed away.  I haven't accounted for $10k in expenses, which I will track down somehow.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 02, 2019, 07:36:59 PM

oh ok that's a high cost of living for the housing, and may just be what it is in your area.
i'm sorry about the loss of your dog. that's an important companion.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on January 03, 2019, 11:45:10 AM

Thanks, I appreciate it.  Not everyone takes emotional connections to pets seriously (I do), so I don't talk about it much.

At $60k spending in a MCOL, I do think it's high and there is room to cut, I will just need to dig a little to figure out what it is.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 03, 2019, 04:25:49 PM

I think you're in a comfortable withdrawal rate though. Sounds like you're only just  a little over 2%.
Anything less than 3.5% withdrawal rate has never in the past failed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on January 13, 2019, 02:28:58 PM

Quote from: XC1984 on December 28, 2018, 12:35:24 PM

I'm new here (at least new at posting), and $2-$3M group seems to be where I am. I was on that traditional retire at 65 path, and really course corrected about 3 years ago after googling "How much is enough" and discovering the FIRE movement on the internet. I'm 52, working as a mid-level corporate manager, and my wife works in the service industry in Southern CA. I started transforming my life toward Mustachianism without knowing it about three years ago - renting out our suburban house, moving to a 2 bedroom near work, and eliminating a 3-hour round-trip commute. Now I save about 1/3 of my annual income and have liquid investments of about $2.4M. I'm targeting quitting my job in about four years at 56 when our youngest is through college and that large variable is behind us. Though I know I could go FIRE today, we would like to move back to our home community in the suburbs to stay long term, and that isn't exactly inexpensive.

I can't say I can closely relate to the 30-somethings retiring on $40k a year, but I believe these principles can be applied by anyone's situation wherever they are at. It has certainly changed my perspective and direction, and I appreciate reading all of these stories!

Hi and welcome to the thread, XC1984!  I've been traveling abroad and just got home, so excuse this insert into a now diverged topic.

 There are lots of 40-50+ people on the site, and many are in this thread.  Frugality and time have done the job for many of the thread participants.   The shared stories and dialogue are fantastic.  I'm in my late 50's and my spouse is older, so we are also on the older (and richer) side of the posters here.  We worked for longer than many Mustachians, saved like crazy and made real estate investments that panned out.  All that is its own path.  There's still plenty to talk about and and lots of great input from like minded people of all ages.  As you say, the principals apply to everyone at every age.  I'm here as a kindred spirit even though we aren't as frugal as we once were-- during the earning, saving and investment stages of our lives. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 16, 2019, 02:41:52 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on January 13, 2019, 02:28:58 PM

Quote from: XC1984 on December 28, 2018, 12:35:24 PM

I'm new here (at least new at posting), and $2-$3M group seems to be where I am. I was on that traditional retire at 65 path, and really course corrected about 3 years ago after googling "How much is enough" and discovering the FIRE movement on the internet. I'm 52, working as a mid-level corporate manager, and my wife works in the service industry in Southern CA. I started transforming my life toward Mustachianism without knowing it about three years ago - renting out our suburban house, moving to a 2 bedroom near work, and eliminating a 3-hour round-trip commute. Now I save about 1/3 of my annual income and have liquid investments of about $2.4M. I'm targeting quitting my job in about four years at 56 when our youngest is through college and that large variable is behind us. Though I know I could go FIRE today, we would like to move back to our home community in the suburbs to stay long term, and that isn't exactly inexpensive.

I can't say I can closely relate to the 30-somethings retiring on $40k a year, but I believe these principles can be applied by anyone's situation wherever they are at. It has certainly changed my perspective and direction, and I appreciate reading all of these stories!

Hi and welcome to the thread, XC1984!  I've been traveling abroad and just got home, so excuse this insert into a now diverged topic.

 There are lots of 40-50+ people on the site, and many are in this thread.  Frugality and time have done the job for many of the thread participants.   The shared stories and dialogue are fantastic.  I'm in my late 50's and my spouse is older, so we are also on the older (and richer) side of the posters here.  We worked for longer than many Mustachians, saved like crazy and made real estate investments that panned out.  All that is its own path.  There's still plenty to talk about and and lots of great input from like minded people of all ages.  As you say, the principals apply to everyone at every age.  I'm here as a kindred spirit even though we aren't as frugal as we once were-- during the earning, saving and investment stages of our lives.

Double that sentiment. You near where I was/am when I fired with 4 kids at home, 2 in college now and there are alot of unexpected costs with that at least I didn't think about even though we were fortunate that one got a full ride and one a partial . But 2 still at home. I sound kinda like you in that I started getting frugal in my later 40's and stumbled across MMM by accident then at 50 was just done.
So welcome @XC1984 . Hopefully we can get a descent bull run again so I can get back on the other-side of 3M as i got my toes wet for a few days when the market peaked and felt good.


As far as all the HC talk this is what scares the shit out of me the most and it Just sucks that we don't have a better way. Pay all these high deductible for Maybe coverage who knows and then have to save on top of it to protect for the future. Just seems harder and harder for those coming up if they want to A) fire early and B) be protected decently.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on January 16, 2019, 07:15:35 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 12:22:31 PM

I agree that the healthcare costs are always a possible future burden. That's why I live frugally so that I'll be prepared financially in the event of an expensive health issue.
When I get to be 60 years old I hope to obtain retiree health care from a part time job I have.

You've certainly found an ideal part time job.  In my full time job, I'm still paying $10k a year in deductibles, co-pays, and out of network stuff.  A part time job with better insurance than that?  Wow.  Amazing to me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 17, 2019, 09:29:34 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 16, 2019, 07:15:35 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 01, 2019, 12:22:31 PM

I agree that the healthcare costs are always a possible future burden. That's why I live frugally so that I'll be prepared financially in the event of an expensive health issue.
When I get to be 60 years old I hope to obtain retiree health care from a part time job I have.

You've certainly found an ideal part time job.  In my full time job, I'm still paying $10k a year in deductibles, co-pays, and out of network stuff.  A part time job with better insurance than that?  Wow.  Amazing to me.

It's through the public schools, teaching yoga, and not sure it will pan out. I have to gain 10 service credits and be 60 years old, or have 5 service credits and be 60 (but have worked for the 5 previous years). It doesn't provide health insurance now. I use ACA for that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 17, 2019, 06:44:25 PM

Just for fun I checked out DW's school retirement healthcare coverage.

"Only" $1133 monthly for a high deductible plan... Geez.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 17, 2019, 07:52:46 PM

I'm surprised by that number. If you have reached retirement within that system then you have been paying into the medical benefits for it, and then therefore your retiree premiums will be partly subsidized.

My retiree health would have 80% of the premium covered by the school's medical retirement benefits which I pay into now as an employee..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 18, 2019, 04:35:25 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 17, 2019, 07:52:46 PM

I'm surprised by that number. If you have reached retirement within that system then you have been paying into the medical benefits for it, and then therefore your retiree premiums will be partly subsidized.

My retiree health would have 80% of the premium covered by the school's medical retirement benefits which I pay into now as an employee..

Hopefully they don't change it on you. Nice plan. Ares isn't to bad in we don't pay much a month but we have an 8k family (6) deductible but if its ever hit anything beyond that gets reimbursed. 

Think a lot more people in our age range would be Fire'd by now if this wasn't such a concern.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on January 18, 2019, 10:46:19 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 18, 2019, 04:35:25 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 17, 2019, 07:52:46 PM

I'm surprised by that number. If you have reached retirement within that system then you have been paying into the medical benefits for it, and then therefore your retiree premiums will be partly subsidized.

My retiree health would have 80% of the premium covered by the school's medical retirement benefits which I pay into now as an employee..

Hopefully they don't change it on you. Nice plan. Ares isn't to bad in we don't pay much a month but we have an 8k family (6) deductible but if its ever hit anything beyond that gets reimbursed. 

Think a lot more people in our age range would be Fire'd by now if this wasn't such a concern.

I was pleasantly surprised when we got off COBRA to have our healthcare expenses drop from ~1K/mo to less than $5/mo for a HDHP plan that allows HCA contributions.  Gotta love the ACA subsidies!  Since we are FIRE we actually need to do Trad to Roth conversions to bring our taxable income UP.  We have enough in our Trad plans to do this for 7-10 years depending on market returns.

Note: I knew our cost would go down, I was surprised (shocked), that it went down that much.)

Note2: Two adults, >50, no chronic health issues.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 18, 2019, 11:35:43 AM

Quote from: Threshkin on January 18, 2019, 10:46:19 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 18, 2019, 04:35:25 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 17, 2019, 07:52:46 PM

I'm surprised by that number. If you have reached retirement within that system then you have been paying into the medical benefits for it, and then therefore your retiree premiums will be partly subsidized.

My retiree health would have 80% of the premium covered by the school's medical retirement benefits which I pay into now as an employee..

Hopefully they don't change it on you. Nice plan. Ares isn't to bad in we don't pay much a month but we have an 8k family (6) deductible but if its ever hit anything beyond that gets reimbursed. 

Think a lot more people in our age range would be Fire'd by now if this wasn't such a concern.

I was pleasantly surprised when we got off COBRA to have our healthcare expenses drop from ~1K/mo to less than $5/mo for a HDHP plan that allows HCA contributions.  Gotta love the ACA subsidies!  Since we are FIRE we actually need to do Trad to Roth conversions to bring our taxable income UP.  We have enough in our Trad plans to do this for 7-10 years depending on market returns.

Note: I knew our cost would go down, I was surprised (shocked), that it went down that much.)

Note2: Two adults, >50, no chronic health issues.

Yes same here. In fact I have discovered that with a MAGI for between $30 and 40K the subsidy is exactly the same, plus federal income taxes are zero (at least at $30K MAGI).  I would like to convert some trad to Roth but our problem is the 9% state income tax which will nail us on the extra income. Still might be worth it to avoid some RMD taxes later.

My big problem with our shitty HC plan is if something happens out of network (like and car wreck 40 miles away from home).. This could easily lead to bankruptcy sized bills.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: webguy on January 18, 2019, 03:18:50 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 09, 2018, 01:40:34 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 08, 2018, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 06, 2017, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on August 24, 2016, 07:53:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 01, 2016, 10:42:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 13, 2016, 01:41:00 PM

Quote from: webguy on November 12, 2015, 09:46:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 26, 2015, 08:35:08 PM

I'd like to join to help motivate me. Currently at $540k and hope to hit the big 1M in the next couple of years.

I made it to $748k! Keep saving everybody!!

I made it to $988k and was getting excited... and then taxes hit! Looks like it'll be another few months yet :(

I finally did it!! Crawled over the line to $1,000,330 today!  Feels pretty surreal. Never thought I'd actually be worth a million dollars. Now I guess I keep on saving towards the next million!

Currently at $1.11m.  Don't really have a goal number at this point. I love running my own business so just tryna ride it out as long as possible and "make hay while the sun shines" as they say.

Passed the half way point!  Somehow we have $1.535m. Not sure how long the next 0.465 will take but I'll report back if we get there!

It took a little longer than I’d hoped due to the market being a douchebag lately but we Just hit 2 million today! We’re officially multi-millionaires I guess! I crunched the numbers and I think our “fat fire” number is around 2.5-3M so I’ll probably keep trucking away till we hit that, then I’m not sure what I’ll do.

Can I join your thread?  We just hit 2M yesterday! And with the friendly market today we're up another 15k already!  I'm carrying over our progress from the race to 2M thread if that's OK as I like keeping track of it this way.

Felt like we got stuck around 2.3M forever but finally hit 2.5M today! Next stop 3M... and beyond!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 18, 2019, 03:29:20 PM

$2.5M at 33 years old is exceptional progress.. What you do for a living.. Rob banks?..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 18, 2019, 04:18:55 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 18, 2019, 03:29:20 PM

$2.5M at 33 years old is exceptional progress.. What you do for a living.. Rob banks?..:)

Probably a high tech employee who is getting stock option bonuses that he is able to exercise.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on January 18, 2019, 05:14:53 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 18, 2019, 11:35:43 AM

Quote from: Threshkin on January 18, 2019, 10:46:19 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 18, 2019, 04:35:25 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 17, 2019, 07:52:46 PM

I'm surprised by that number. If you have reached retirement within that system then you have been paying into the medical benefits for it, and then therefore your retiree premiums will be partly subsidized.

My retiree health would have 80% of the premium covered by the school's medical retirement benefits which I pay into now as an employee..

Hopefully they don't change it on you. Nice plan. Ares isn't to bad in we don't pay much a month but we have an 8k family (6) deductible but if its ever hit anything beyond that gets reimbursed. 

Think a lot more people in our age range would be Fire'd by now if this wasn't such a concern.

I was pleasantly surprised when we got off COBRA to have our healthcare expenses drop from ~1K/mo to less than $5/mo for a HDHP plan that allows HCA contributions.  Gotta love the ACA subsidies!  Since we are FIRE we actually need to do Trad to Roth conversions to bring our taxable income UP.  We have enough in our Trad plans to do this for 7-10 years depending on market returns.

Note: I knew our cost would go down, I was surprised (shocked), that it went down that much.)

Note2: Two adults, >50, no chronic health issues.

Yes same here. In fact I have discovered that with a MAGI for between $30 and 40K the subsidy is exactly the same, plus federal income taxes are zero (at least at $30K MAGI).  I would like to convert some trad to Roth but our problem is the 9% state income tax which will nail us on the extra income. Still might be worth it to avoid some RMD taxes later.

My big problem with our shitty HC plan is if something happens out of network (like and car wreck 40 miles away from home).. This could easily lead to bankruptcy sized bills.

We have a Kaiser plan and were told we would be in-network in any Kaiser facility nationwide.  We have not tested this though!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 18, 2019, 06:29:12 PM

Assuming you get taken to a Kaiser facility when they scrape you off the road.

Do they have Kaiser facilities country wide?

We have Providence (as Kaiser does not exist until about 50 miles north of us)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on January 18, 2019, 07:05:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 18, 2019, 06:29:12 PM

Assuming you get taken to a Kaiser facility when they scrape you off the road.

Do they have Kaiser facilities country wide?

We have Providence (as Kaiser does not exist until about 50 miles north of us)

Agreed, the lack of health care insurance portability is one of my biggest gripes about the current US system.  But Kaiser has the biggest coverage area I found.  With many policies you are screwed if you are 50 miles from home, much less across the country. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 18, 2019, 07:34:58 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on January 18, 2019, 07:05:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 18, 2019, 06:29:12 PM

Assuming you get taken to a Kaiser facility when they scrape you off the road.

Do they have Kaiser facilities country wide?

We have Providence (as Kaiser does not exist until about 50 miles north of us)

Agreed, the lack of health care insurance portability is one of my biggest gripes about the current US system.  But Kaiser has the biggest coverage area I found.  With many policies you are screwed if you are 50 miles from home, much less across the country.

Yeah, its a shame because the Kaiser facilities start just 50 miles north of us AND are cheaper than the Providence plans to boot.

It all sucks big time..:(

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on January 18, 2019, 08:39:48 PM

I can’t say enough good things about kaiser. Haven’t yet had to test getting care outside a Kaiser system, but my cousin seemed to have no problem when he broke his leg in Taiwan while on kaiser.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: webguy on January 18, 2019, 10:14:03 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 18, 2019, 04:18:55 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 18, 2019, 03:29:20 PM

$2.5M at 33 years old is exceptional progress.. What you do for a living.. Rob banks?..:)

Probably a high tech employee who is getting stock option bonuses that he is able to exercise.

I wish I’d gotten some stock options! I just run a little software development company from my home office and I’ve been fortunate that it’s been pretty profitable so far.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 19, 2019, 03:10:13 AM

Quote from: webguy on January 18, 2019, 10:14:03 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 18, 2019, 04:18:55 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 18, 2019, 03:29:20 PM

$2.5M at 33 years old is exceptional progress.. What you do for a living.. Rob banks?..:)

Probably a high tech employee who is getting stock option bonuses that he is able to exercise.

I wish I’d gotten some stock options! I just run a little software development company from my home office and I’ve been fortunate that it’s been pretty profitable so far.

That's pretty sweet gig you got going! I had a really good gig when I was your age and should of fired with 3-4xs than I did but got caught up in some bad real estate investments and it all went to hell in 08 plus it was all my cash I didn't borrow any. Add to that the area flooded so bad to this day the prices haven't come back so as they say stick with what you know. Good to see young people that have there shit together! my hats off to you.  I cant complain though I was still able to fire at 50 but easily could of been 40 with same amount that I have now. Be hard at your age to not ride that gig out for awhile too as long as it doesn't start running you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: webguy on January 23, 2019, 01:58:13 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 19, 2019, 03:10:13 AM

Quote from: webguy on January 18, 2019, 10:14:03 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 18, 2019, 04:18:55 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 18, 2019, 03:29:20 PM

$2.5M at 33 years old is exceptional progress.. What you do for a living.. Rob banks?..:)

Probably a high tech employee who is getting stock option bonuses that he is able to exercise.

I wish I’d gotten some stock options! I just run a little software development company from my home office and I’ve been fortunate that it’s been pretty profitable so far.

That's pretty sweet gig you got going! I had a really good gig when I was your age and should of fired with 3-4xs than I did but got caught up in some bad real estate investments and it all went to hell in 08 plus it was all my cash I didn't borrow any. Add to that the area flooded so bad to this day the prices haven't come back so as they say stick with what you know. Good to see young people that have there shit together! my hats off to you.  I cant complain though I was still able to fire at 50 but easily could of been 40 with same amount that I have now. Be hard at your age to not ride that gig out for awhile too as long as it doesn't start running you.

Sorry to hear of your bad luck with real estate.  I think my plan as of right now is that once I hit 3.5M in a couple years then I'll use some of the profits of the business to try to hire out my role so that I can be more passive in my involvement.  3.5M should give us 2.5M invested to live off, a paid off 650k house, and a paid off 350k cabin.  Seems like that should do us just fine.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on January 24, 2019, 06:36:08 AM

You're a huge inspiration @webguy.

This is from your first post on MMM over 6 years ago!

Quote from: webguy on January 31, 2013, 10:09:53 AM

My goal that I set my wife and I is to save 250k over the next 5 years so that when we have kids at that time then we can create some flexibility in our work situations (maybe part-time or a full-time freelancer from home).
Thanks in advance!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 24, 2019, 08:34:07 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on January 24, 2019, 06:36:08 AM

You're a huge inspiration @webguy.

This is from your first post on MMM over 6 years ago!

Quote from: webguy on January 31, 2013, 10:09:53 AM

My goal that I set my wife and I is to save 250k over the next 5 years so that when we have kids at that time then we can create some flexibility in our work situations (maybe part-time or a full-time freelancer from home).
Thanks in advance!

Just like other high earners like MMM, 1500days, MrTakoEscapes, RetireBy40, and RootOfGood were ‘inspirational’.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 24, 2019, 12:12:54 PM

From a plan to save $250,000 to achieving 10X that much.  It makes one a believer in what a little frugality and thoughtful money investing can do for you.  Wow!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 24, 2019, 12:21:24 PM

"Money, money, money, must be funny, in a rich man's world"...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 24, 2019, 11:02:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 24, 2019, 12:21:24 PM

"Money, money, money, must be funny, in a rich man's world"...:)

Always sunny, too ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: webguy on January 25, 2019, 08:14:21 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on January 24, 2019, 06:36:08 AM

You're a huge inspiration @webguy.

This is from your first post on MMM over 6 years ago!

Quote from: webguy on January 31, 2013, 10:09:53 AM

My goal that I set my wife and I is to save 250k over the next 5 years so that when we have kids at that time then we can create some flexibility in our work situations (maybe part-time or a full-time freelancer from home).
Thanks in advance!

Thanks, I appreciate it!  Definitely never dreamed I’d be able to amass this much money, I was making somewhere around 60k back then I think and my wife somewhere around 39. Following a mustachian lifestyle allowed me to take some risks I wouldn’t otherwise have been able to take, coupled with lots of hard work and a sprinkle of luck of course.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 25, 2019, 12:36:20 PM

Quote from: webguy on January 25, 2019, 08:14:21 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on January 24, 2019, 06:36:08 AM

You're a huge inspiration @webguy.

This is from your first post on MMM over 6 years ago!

Quote from: webguy on January 31, 2013, 10:09:53 AM

My goal that I set my wife and I is to save 250k over the next 5 years so that when we have kids at that time then we can create some flexibility in our work situations (maybe part-time or a full-time freelancer from home).
Thanks in advance!

Thanks, I appreciate it!  Definitely never dreamed I’d be able to amass this much money, I was making somewhere around 60k back then I think and my wife somewhere around 39. Following a mustachian lifestyle allowed me to take some risks I wouldn’t otherwise have been able to take, coupled with lots of hard work and a sprinkle of luck of course.

It is interesting to look down from these lofty levels and think .. How the heck did this happen?.. And "If I had about twice as much as I do now"....:).

But seriously, well done!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 26, 2019, 12:29:04 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 25, 2019, 12:36:20 PM

-  KER SNIP -

It is interesting to look down from these lofty levels and think .. How the heck did this happen?.. And "If I had about twice as much as I do now"....:).

But seriously, well done!

- And I note he lives in the land of 10,000 taxes! -

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 27, 2019, 04:55:23 AM

Quote from: pecunia on January 26, 2019, 12:29:04 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 25, 2019, 12:36:20 PM

-  KER SNIP -

It is interesting to look down from these lofty levels and think .. How the heck did this happen?.. And "If I had about twice as much as I do now"....:).

But seriously, well done!

- And I note he lives in the land of 10,000 taxes! -

had to laugh cuz yes he does. So much they should change there plates from lakes to taxes!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 27, 2019, 07:22:40 AM

He's killing it in money, so the taxes are inconsequential for him.
Moreover, the state of Minnesota has great schools, universities, and a good environment. So the taxes are worth it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 27, 2019, 08:15:31 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 27, 2019, 07:22:40 AM

He's killing it in money, so the taxes are inconsequential for him.
Moreover, the state of Minnesota has great schools, universities, and a good environment. So the taxes are worth it.

I used to live there.  It was a good place.  Maybe, it's good when a state isn't too mustachian.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: onlykelsey on January 28, 2019, 07:36:55 AM

Quote from: pecunia on January 27, 2019, 08:15:31 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 27, 2019, 07:22:40 AM

He's killing it in money, so the taxes are inconsequential for him.
Moreover, the state of Minnesota has great schools, universities, and a good environment. So the taxes are worth it.

I used to live there.  It was a good place.  Maybe, it's good when a state isn't too mustachian.

Yeah, Minnesota is great.  Great people, functioning infrastructure, great schools, great universities.  There is a balance. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: webguy on January 28, 2019, 01:42:18 PM

To be honest the taxes don't bother me. I moved here to Minnesota directly from the UK where the tax rates are pretty much the same, if not slightly higher.  Plus, Minnesota is pretty awesome!  Sure, the winter's are cold and snowy but that just adds to the variety of life!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on January 28, 2019, 02:10:28 PM

Quote from: webguy on January 28, 2019, 01:42:18 PM

To be honest the taxes don't bother me. I moved here to Minnesota directly from the UK where the tax rates are pretty much the same, if not slightly higher.  Plus, Minnesota is pretty awesome!  Sure, the winter's are cold and snowy but that just adds to the variety of life!

I feel like it is easy for people to jump on the “move to where there are no taxes!”-train without stopping to ask what is paid for with taxes, and what you don’t get by living in places like that. What you should be looking at is where gives you the best total package of services and other quality-of-life improvements for your money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 28, 2019, 04:22:43 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on January 28, 2019, 02:10:28 PM

Quote from: webguy on January 28, 2019, 01:42:18 PM

To be honest the taxes don't bother me. I moved here to Minnesota directly from the UK where the tax rates are pretty much the same, if not slightly higher.  Plus, Minnesota is pretty awesome!  Sure, the winter's are cold and snowy but that just adds to the variety of life!

I feel like it is easy for people to jump on the “move to where there are no taxes!”-train without stopping to ask what is paid for with taxes, and what you don’t get by living in places like that. What you should be looking at is where gives you the best total package of services and other quality-of-life improvements for your money.

Sing it, sister!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 28, 2019, 06:02:19 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on January 28, 2019, 02:10:28 PM

I feel like it is easy for people to jump on the “move to where there are no taxes!”-train without stopping to ask what is paid for with taxes, and what you don’t get by living in places like that. What you should be looking at is where gives you the best total package of services and other quality-of-life improvements for your money.

That's for sure.  Last year I worked with this heavily right wing guy who moved from Illinois (high taxes) to Indiana (lower taxes).  He was raving about how much better it was to be in that land of lower taxes.  Not long after that I drove through some backroads in Indiana.  Potholes and filled potholes were abundant.  I kept asking myself why don't they repave these roads.  Then I recalled I was in Indiana and they are happier with the low taxes.

I would take Minnesota in a heartbeat, even a cold place like Ely.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 29, 2019, 04:05:58 AM

Quote from: pecunia on January 28, 2019, 06:02:19 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on January 28, 2019, 02:10:28 PM

I feel like it is easy for people to jump on the “move to where there are no taxes!”-train without stopping to ask what is paid for with taxes, and what you don’t get by living in places like that. What you should be looking at is where gives you the best total package of services and other quality-of-life improvements for your money.

That's for sure.  Last year I worked with this heavily right wing guy who moved from Illinois (high taxes) to Indiana (lower taxes).  He was raving about how much better it was to be in that land of lower taxes.  Not long after that I drove through some backroads in Indiana.  Potholes and filled potholes were abundant.  I kept asking myself why don't they repave these roads.  Then I recalled I was in Indiana and they are happier with the low taxes.

I would take Minnesota in a heartbeat, even a cold place like Ely.

Like most states there is good and bad to them. I go to  Indiana all the time and by West Lafayette it is extremely nice, big college town with Purdue being there.  Indianapolis has come along ways and become a very nice city that offers pretty much everything.  Up by Gary yes its a shit hole but there are a lot of nice areas to live with low taxes in Indiana. I find that to be the same in my own state as well Wisconsin. Milwaukee though getting better the areas to live are mostly a shit hole, Madison is very nice and everything between the two is really nice. Northern Wisconsin is hard to beat but like Minnesota you better be into winter sports.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on January 29, 2019, 07:37:59 AM

If you move to a "low tax" state, be sure you understand what the taxes are.  Living in Massachusetts, I know what the taxes are on and what they're not on.  I'm paying income and property taxes and exise tax on my cars (some states call this personal property tax) and sales tax on things excluding food and clothes.

To our north, New Hampshire glowingly holds itself out as charging no income or sales tax.  There are taxes like meals tax, which tends to be missed, but of course you could simply not eat out.  Property tax tends to be around double what it is in Mass.  And of course, a huge % of NH people work in Mass, so they're paying income tax to us (thank you very much).  There are different treatments for dividends and such, so just understand these.  I used to work in NH and my cube mate lived in a town where a new high school was being built.  His property taxes doubled in one year.  In Mass, there's prop 2 1/2, (like CA) which limits property tax increases which have to be voted in for a specific project (like a school).  MA tends to also fund a huge portion of school building from state funds, softening the blow to the town.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 05, 2019, 06:34:37 AM

After an absolutely horrible 2018 both personally and financially, I finally see my balances stabilizing and moving slightly up.  Clicked into the $2.3M in investments.  Not having to pay $500 per hour lawyer bills makes the school and college bills look like chicken feed now.  I might actually make more money than I spend this year.  That would be nice.  Oh....and my younger son is taking one community college course as part of his high school senior program.  $700 cost and he applied for a scholarship there and got it for $500.  Nice to see!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 05, 2019, 09:58:15 AM

Yes, a good start to 2019 bit I am still a ways behind my peak NW back in September last year.

Until property prices in Sydney bottom out progress towards a full recovery of NW, and the growth beyond that, will be slow.

Sydney property Prices have dropped 15% from the peak in mid 2017. I am thinking another 5% to 10% and then prices will be back aligned with what people can borrow which will support prices. That is unless interest rates go up which would cause a sh&t show at this moment (so unlikely). The Autumn selling market will be interesting to follow.

As my properties are still quite leveraged, even a 5% drop in values is pretty noticeable to my NW. I am still plenty ahead on property over the long term so I can’t gripe too much though. And as we won’t be selling for at least 4 more years there’s plenty of time for some growth before then. 🤞

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 05, 2019, 11:18:49 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 05, 2019, 06:34:37 AM

After an absolutely horrible 2018 both personally and financially, I finally see my balances stabilizing and moving slightly up.  Clicked into the $2.3M in investments.  Not having to pay $500 per hour lawyer bills makes the school and college bills look like chicken feed now.  I might actually make more money than I spend this year.  That would be nice.  Oh....and my younger son is taking one community college course as part of his high school senior program.  $700 cost and he applied for a scholarship there and got it for $500.  Nice to see!

What happened to you in 2018 CJ.. If you're comfortable sharing?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 05, 2019, 01:59:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 05, 2019, 11:18:49 AM

What happened to you in 2018 CJ.. If you're comfortable sharing?

2 completely independent legal battles.  Settled both. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 05, 2019, 02:32:24 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 05, 2019, 01:59:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 05, 2019, 11:18:49 AM

What happened to you in 2018 CJ.. If you're comfortable sharing?

2 completely independent legal battles.  Settled both.

Great.. Huge weight of your shoulders I'm sure!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 05, 2019, 04:09:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 05, 2019, 02:32:24 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 05, 2019, 01:59:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 05, 2019, 11:18:49 AM

What happened to you in 2018 CJ.. If you're comfortable sharing?

2 completely independent legal battles.  Settled both.

Great.. Huge weight of your shoulders I'm sure!

@Car Jack, I wondered the same thing. I poked around in your posting history to see what I missed. I didn't find an answer, but I was impressed with the quality of your posts across the forum. Thanks for your contributions to the greater good here. I love it when people help others find their way to FIRE...and beyond. I hope "Settled both." was a good thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 06, 2019, 03:57:26 AM

Slowly creeping up but ways to go to get to last September. Not sure if will get there but never the less at least for a bit now the trend has been up. Probably jinxed it now. Oh well! is what it is.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 06, 2019, 01:12:32 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 06, 2019, 03:57:26 AM

Slowly creeping up but ways to go to get to last September. Not sure if will get there but never the less at least for a bit now the trend has been up. Probably jinxed it now. Oh well! is what it is.

You DID jinx it!.. I "should" have been back in this club today (with just my investments) but NOOOO!... :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 06, 2019, 01:29:27 PM

I'd just started tipping the threshold of 2MM investments again.   No more big drops.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on February 06, 2019, 02:11:25 PM

We're all in it together. Let's enjoy the ride.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on February 06, 2019, 03:38:47 PM

I'm just curious how you all calculate your NWs--specifically, houses and mortgages?  I don't include the value of my house, but I also don't subtract the balance of my mortgage.  My reasoning is that I don't know the exact value of my house, but (after paying down the mortgage for 12 years and seeing home values in my area improve at least somewhat from 2008) I know it's at least more than my mortgage, and I'd rather underestimate my NW than overestimate it. 
 
I'm just curious about what others do--I don't think there's wrong way. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: onlykelsey on February 06, 2019, 05:01:14 PM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on February 06, 2019, 03:38:47 PM

I'm just curious how you all calculate your NWs--specifically, houses and mortgages?  I don't include the value of my house, but I also don't subtract the balance of my mortgage.  My reasoning is that I don't know the exact value of my house, but (after paying down the mortgage for 12 years and seeing home values in my area improve at least somewhat from 2008) I know it's at least more than my mortgage, and I'd rather underestimate my NW than overestimate it. 
 
I'm just curious about what others do--I don't think there's wrong way.

Because I know I am not living long-term in my Manhattan condo, I include its (conservative, non-zillow) value, subtract the value of my mortgage, and subtract another 50k for anticipated transaction costs on selling.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: AlexMar on February 06, 2019, 08:20:51 PM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on February 06, 2019, 03:38:47 PM

I'm just curious how you all calculate your NWs--specifically, houses and mortgages?  I don't include the value of my house, but I also don't subtract the balance of my mortgage.  My reasoning is that I don't know the exact value of my house, but (after paying down the mortgage for 12 years and seeing home values in my area improve at least somewhat from 2008) I know it's at least more than my mortgage, and I'd rather underestimate my NW than overestimate it. 
 
I'm just curious about what others do--I don't think there's wrong way.

I use Personal Capital to calculate my Net Worth.  It includes all of my accounts, which includes credit cards, mortgage, etc. etc.  For my houses, I did some pretty simple research on comps and put in the house at a realistic value minus an estimate of realtor fees.  In other words, my house should fetch $1.5M based on recent sales, conservatively, but I put it in at $1.35M.

Your house is absolutely a part of your net worth calculation, and so is the mortgage.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: AlexMar on February 06, 2019, 08:23:40 PM

Quote from: webguy on January 18, 2019, 03:18:50 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 09, 2018, 01:40:34 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 08, 2018, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 06, 2017, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on August 24, 2016, 07:53:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 01, 2016, 10:42:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 13, 2016, 01:41:00 PM

Quote from: webguy on November 12, 2015, 09:46:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 26, 2015, 08:35:08 PM

I'd like to join to help motivate me. Currently at $540k and hope to hit the big 1M in the next couple of years.

I made it to $748k! Keep saving everybody!!

I made it to $988k and was getting excited... and then taxes hit! Looks like it'll be another few months yet :(

I finally did it!! Crawled over the line to $1,000,330 today!  Feels pretty surreal. Never thought I'd actually be worth a million dollars. Now I guess I keep on saving towards the next million!

Currently at $1.11m.  Don't really have a goal number at this point. I love running my own business so just tryna ride it out as long as possible and "make hay while the sun shines" as they say.

Passed the half way point!  Somehow we have $1.535m. Not sure how long the next 0.465 will take but I'll report back if we get there!

It took a little longer than I’d hoped due to the market being a douchebag lately but we Just hit 2 million today! We’re officially multi-millionaires I guess! I crunched the numbers and I think our “fat fire” number is around 2.5-3M so I’ll probably keep trucking away till we hit that, then I’m not sure what I’ll do.

Can I join your thread?  We just hit 2M yesterday! And with the friendly market today we're up another 15k already!  I'm carrying over our progress from the race to 2M thread if that's OK as I like keeping track of it this way.

Felt like we got stuck around 2.3M forever but finally hit 2.5M today! Next stop 3M... and beyond!

Facing the same challenge.  I've been sitting at $2.5 for at least 2 years now.  Just a TON of investments into the business is killing my savings rate, plus a bunch of spending on the house (and another house).  Kept me stagnant and I hate it.  But this year is THE year to start funneling money away again.  $3M seems so far off but I think I can hit it in 12 - 15 months (hopefully).

By the way, your story sounds a lot like mine.  I'm 2 years older than you and around the same NW, but about 8 years ago I was earning only $45k/year and 6 years later was in the $2M+ NW category. I never thought it would happen.  It's really a wild ride.  Congrats!

Fortunately, I already have a good management team in place and can work when I feel like it, which is still rather often.  My goal is to continue building the business, make a ton more money, and sell it when I'm 45 - 50 (or leave it to my kids).   The thing with owning a business is that you can really FIRE but not "really" FIRE.  So you keep earning the same if not more money but feel like you aren't tied to the job at all.  So you don't get a strong desire to FIRE.  Which is why I'd rather wait.  I'm hoping with the sale of the business and future profits plus compounding, $20M.

Best of luck with your venture!  Some of these software companies sell for huge amounts.  So you may have a total gold mine when or if you unload it someday.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 07, 2019, 04:35:47 AM

Guess i did Jinx it yesterday but for the most part it was a sideways days. 5 days up I believe maybe some profit taking. Anyhow were in it for the long run so while it feels good running up gotta remind ourselves of that once in awhile BUT I'd rather be saying that back on the other side of 3M.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 07, 2019, 09:02:56 AM

Finally peeked at account balances yesterday. I think it was worth not looking for a while. We're not at last September's number, but it's not far off. Boy, a lot of potential stress avoided for the win!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 07, 2019, 11:06:15 AM

I'm having a little personal gloat cus I managed to rebalance at almosth the exact bottom in Dec and I rebalanced again on Monday.. Almost the exact top..

Should start shorting the market as clearly my track record is exemplary ..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 09, 2019, 03:54:10 AM

Quote from: Dicey on February 07, 2019, 09:02:56 AM

Finally peeked at account balances yesterday. I think it was worth not looking for a while. We're not at last September's number, but it's not far off. Boy, a lot of potential stress avoided for the win!

I'm with ya on that sentiment! Was good to to see the market wold its ground yesterday so maybe, just maybe we have a chance getting back to those September numbers and beyond but this political climate is not helping things.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on February 14, 2019, 01:19:03 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 09, 2019, 03:54:10 AM

Quote from: Dicey on February 07, 2019, 09:02:56 AM

Finally peeked at account balances yesterday. I think it was worth not looking for a while. We're not at last September's number, but it's not far off. Boy, a lot of potential stress avoided for the win!

I'm with ya on that sentiment! Was good to to see the market wold its ground yesterday so maybe, just maybe we have a chance getting back to those September numbers and beyond but this political climate is not helping things.

this is one of the (only) great things about still working and earning. despite the markets, we are still up about $300K since the lows in December due to consistent savings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 14, 2019, 01:49:05 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on February 14, 2019, 01:19:03 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 09, 2019, 03:54:10 AM

Quote from: Dicey on February 07, 2019, 09:02:56 AM

Finally peeked at account balances yesterday. I think it was worth not looking for a while. We're not at last September's number, but it's not far off. Boy, a lot of potential stress avoided for the win!

I'm with ya on that sentiment! Was good to to see the market wold its ground yesterday so maybe, just maybe we have a chance getting back to those September numbers and beyond but this political climate is not helping things.

this is one of the (only) great things about still working and earning. despite the markets, we are still up about $300K since the lows in December due to consistent savings.

Yup, it's funny, I make so much more money in the 'modern era' (and get to keep much more of it due to tax reform) that I am happily pared back from taking risk in the markets.  I'm happy that we are back near S&P 2800, but I don't want to bite my nails around what Trump decides on signing legislation or what China wants to do with US bonds, etc.  Passive income no longer feels so passive, it feels like 'agreeing with things I disagree with' income.  Happy to earn good active income and feel good about what I do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 14, 2019, 02:05:54 PM

You guys just wait till you're retired!..:)

It is a little nerve wracking seeing one investment dip (briefly) below $2M (even with pensions/rent that basically cover one baseline spending).

But heck.. First world problems.. get over myself..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 15, 2019, 02:38:53 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 14, 2019, 01:49:05 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on February 14, 2019, 01:19:03 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 09, 2019, 03:54:10 AM

Quote from: Dicey on February 07, 2019, 09:02:56 AM

Finally peeked at account balances yesterday. I think it was worth not looking for a while. We're not at last September's number, but it's not far off. Boy, a lot of potential stress avoided for the win!

I'm with ya on that sentiment! Was good to to see the market wold its ground yesterday so maybe, just maybe we have a chance getting back to those September numbers and beyond but this political climate is not helping things.

this is one of the (only) great things about still working and earning. despite the markets, we are still up about $300K since the lows in December due to consistent savings.

Yup, it's funny, I make so much more money in the 'modern era' (and get to keep much more of it due to tax reform) that I am happily pared back from taking risk in the markets.  I'm happy that we are back near S&P 2800, but I don't want to bite my nails around what Trump decides on signing legislation or what China wants to do with US bonds, etc.  Passive income no longer feels so passive, it feels like 'agreeing with things I disagree with' income.  Happy to earn good active income and feel good about what I do.

Thats how i have felt lately and have found myself being a bit more defensive in things. Small adjustments like moving stuff out of VMMXX into CD's and T-Bills but never-the-less there is so much shit going on and its been a long run but it seems to always have been like this.  To your point the one good thing with me being fire'd and my DW two years ago deciding to go back to work after two years off we do save a bunch on Health Care and every dime goes into 401k, HSA etc.. that is left so that to helps us stay above water and she loves it which takes some of the guilt I was feeling since the bread winner all the years leading up to this. Were still up at least 15% from when I fire'd 4 years ago but thats playing a big part in it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 15, 2019, 03:03:55 AM

I was playing around in my spreadsheets the other day and was a bit astonshied by how quickly the stash continues to grow if I am drawing down 4% but the stash is delivering a (perfectly possible) 6% real return.

With a conservative plan our futures should be bright despite all the political noise.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on February 16, 2019, 08:23:31 PM

I've been covering my face a bit, but finally checked. At $3.45M (includes property value, minus mortgage), which is down from our October high of $3.85M. Property prices have dropped a bit, actually. Which in the Bay Area, is pretty unusual. But, not unexpected, from my side. I'm expecting a further dip before things stabilize.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 16, 2019, 10:25:45 PM

yeah I'm getting a little nervous about this rally. I am considering moving from 8/20 (80 stocks/20 bonds plus cash) to 72/25.

I would be quite happy with continued gains at the lower stock ratio, but and extra 5% in bonds that I could roll back into stocks if the market took another sharp correction would be quite nice.

Last year out WR was about 1.5% so its not like we need to take too much risk.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 17, 2019, 01:48:53 AM

I don't calculate my net worth very often anymore since it involves currency fluctuations and interest rates, but this latest rally has been an unexpected surprise.  Not as exposed to it as I would have liked for my age, but I'm doing fine.  I think that the US is still seen as a stable store of value, but this battle over 8B and what a President can declare could put a damper on the market.  Or maybe China falls apart even more quickly than the US which makes us a good bet!  I just shake my head at what could have been possible had anyone other than Trump been elected :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 17, 2019, 06:09:48 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 17, 2019, 01:48:53 AM

I don't calculate my net worth very often anymore since it involves currency fluctuations and interest rates, but this latest rally has been an unexpected surprise.  Not as exposed to it as I would have liked for my age, but I'm doing fine.  I think that the US is still seen as a stable store of value, but this battle over 8B and what a President can declare could put a damper on the market.  Or maybe China falls apart even more quickly than the US which makes us a good bet!  I just shake my head at what could have been possible had anyone other than Trump been elected :)

Those of us in this thread are better off than 95 percent of the US households.   We'll weather most financial storms.   Trump has been more of a mental drain on me rather than financial.   We're holding about 250k in bond funds.  That could get us through several down years.  I'm buying more stock and bond funds as we're still working.  In a 50 percent market drop, we're still millionaires technically.   It's going to be ok.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on February 17, 2019, 07:03:38 AM

Just for some context, though, I have an account that is mostly foreign stock that was over $200k this summer that is still $178k today.

So U.S. markets are at all-time highs but if you have a globally diversified portfolio you may still be under where we were in the summer. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 17, 2019, 12:58:10 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 17, 2019, 06:09:48 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 17, 2019, 01:48:53 AM

I don't calculate my net worth very often anymore since it involves currency fluctuations and interest rates, but this latest rally has been an unexpected surprise.  Not as exposed to it as I would have liked for my age, but I'm doing fine.  I think that the US is still seen as a stable store of value, but this battle over 8B and what a President can declare could put a damper on the market.  Or maybe China falls apart even more quickly than the US which makes us a good bet!  I just shake my head at what could have been possible had anyone other than Trump been elected :)

Those of us in this thread are better off than 95 percent of the US households.   We'll weather most financial storms.   Trump has been more of a mental drain on me rather than financial.   We're holding about 250k in bond funds.  That could get us through several down years.  I'm buying more stock and bond funds as we're still working.  In a 50 percent market drop, we're still millionaires technically.   It's going to be ok.

Yeah I think having a large pot is a form of hedonistic adaption.. I.e a heck of a good problem to have!

DW was asking me the other day (this is one of those "what do I do with all these funds if you get hit by a bus" conversations) what would we do if the market really tanked like it did in 2008?

without missing a bit a beat I told her.. I take my pension from the UK (OK doesn't work too well if I'm actually dead) and we tighten our belts ever so slightly.

The net result of this our WR would be zero, then we wait for the market to recover all the while still having a shit-ton of money to rebuild the house if the big earthquake happens on the left coast.

Its pretty amazing to step back from this situation realise we are all financially invincible.. almost..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on February 17, 2019, 04:29:35 PM

 I love it that we all have such different options.  Since our NW is 90% real estate, stock market fluctuations don't do much for our bottom line, better or worse.  If real estate tanks, or the rental market falters, then we're looking at a non diversified wealth portfolio, so to speak.   Losing a good tenant is my financial equivalent of a down day on the stock market-- something that's certain to cost me a couple of grand or more.  Ditching a bad tenant would be more like a bad quarter on the stock market.  A massive earthquake or fire storm would be my Black Friday. 

A couple of posts above, @blinx7 is down $22K since last summer, more than 10% of that account.  Ouch.  That would be about a year's loss of rental income on one of my rentals, which cost me about the same (200K ish purchase price, renting for $1900-2000 month, costing taxes and insurance, but no mortgage).   In my spread sheet, though, the income and the asset are distinct.  The asset is still there but the income is reduced.

Hearing most of you discuss the ups and downs of the stock market has given me the courage to rethink our RE-centric portfolio and get a little more cash into stocks and bonds.    From an outside perspective, I'd say ya'll rolled with the punches and bounced back pretty well.  None the worse for wear and tear! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 17, 2019, 11:47:01 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on February 17, 2019, 04:29:35 PM

I love it that we all have such different options.  Since our NW is 90% real estate, stock market fluctuations don't do much for our bottom line, better or worse.  If real estate tanks, or the rental market falters, then we're looking at a non diversified wealth portfolio, so to speak.   Losing a good tenant is my financial equivalent of a down day on the stock market-- something that's certain to cost me a couple of grand or more.  Ditching a bad tenant would be more like a bad quarter on the stock market.  A massive earthquake or fire storm would be my Black Friday. 

A couple of posts above, @blinx7 is down $22K since last summer, more than 10% of that account.  Ouch.  That would be about a year's loss of rental income on one of my rentals, which cost me about the same (200K ish purchase price, renting for $1900-2000 month, costing taxes and insurance, but no mortgage).   In my spread sheet, though, the income and the asset are distinct.  The asset is still there but the income is reduced.

Hearing most of you discuss the ups and downs of the stock market has given me the courage to rethink our RE-centric portfolio and get a little more cash into stocks and bonds.    From an outside perspective, I'd say ya'll rolled with the punches and bounced back pretty well.  None the worse for wear and tear!

I'd suggest that your RE is a reasonable bond equivalent. In your position, I'd focus on adding stocks to your portfolio. Reading jlcollinsnh's Stock Series is a good place to start.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 18, 2019, 12:23:33 AM

Net worth as of:

EOY 2017: $2,523,000.
EOY 2018: $2,553,000.   
Current   : $2,625,000.

That includes real estate investments and our house less its mortgage in addition to stocks and bonds.   I see no reason to consider real estate investments as second class citizens and count them as worth nothing for this thread.   

Assuming the market remains static, we'll jump another $30,000 or so once we finish some renovations on a property in the next 2 weeks.

If we just have historical average market returns for the next 3 years we'll make $3,000,000 easy peasy.

We have some heavy investment expenses requiring cash outlays over the next 2 years.  Once those are done we'll focus on how to share the wealth rather than hoard even more of it.   

For example, I'm looking at setting up a house to rent rooms to students at a university.  They'll be able to decide whether they want to share a bedroom with another student or not, so a 4 bedroom house could house up to 8 students (assuming the local codes allow that).  (If not, then I'll use a smaller house.)

Let's pretend it takes $10,000 to keep the house operational, including vacancy, repair set asides, taxes, property management, insurance, etc.  In addition, let's assume that the house receives $20,000 in rental income.    After subtracting all the money it takes to keep the place running, we also subtract out anything the students broke by being stupid about it (as opposed to it just wearing out).  For example, they have a big party and some drunken frat boys break the deck railing because they think hitting it with hammers is cool.   Let's assume it costs $1,000 to fix that.  That leaves $9,000 income left over.  We would distribute it back to the students on a pro-rated basis.   If they recruit enough students to fill the place up and don't trash the place, then they'll get about 1/2 their rent back in time for next year's tuition payments.    I'm still researching that market and keeping an eye out for a great deal so I can't be more exact on the numbers.  My guess is I'm a year or three away from being able to pull his off, assuming the right property is available.

Plus, if I want to attend that university for fun, my own costs will be lower too.  No reason I can't help myself out while helping others!  If I run the numbers correctly, the house would be self-sustaining even after we're dead and gone.
 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 19, 2019, 04:18:59 AM

Like i have mentioned before I keep dancing around the 3M line but I dont count my paid of Mortgage and or 529s couple other things where its money spent BUT if we had a 2008 event which I think its good to and figure out what would you do or how to protect yourself I wouldn't panic (but would freak out internally since fire'd) If the market dropped 50% as My portfolio wouldnt. Best I could tell it would have to drop closer to 75% for that to happen but I am hoping with some moves I am making I might be giving up a little upside to protect downside but you just don't know. Personally while I feel this market seems to be a bit tired and not sure if will get to September highs we could blow past it as well. Seems hard to really figure out what is really going on and what isnt. People I talk to that are alot smarter than me feel there is no reason for the market to drop for the next 2-3 years minimum but again who knows. Sentiment can do amazing things. One thing I do feel is that there is still alot of money that wants to get in and when we had the most recent drop it came back pretty damn fast as people sure bought.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 19, 2019, 11:54:42 AM

Yes I feel the same about the market in the short term. We currently run 80/20 (stock:bond+cash) but I am hoping today to move that to 75/25 for a little more downside protection.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on February 23, 2019, 07:35:29 PM

I'm back up to close to $1.7 million in liquid assets, and now the home equity keeps going up, and is now $420K

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on February 23, 2019, 10:08:47 PM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on August 27, 2018, 04:53:15 PM

To make it to this group I had to include my GF's TSP numbers and our pensions.  Just today if I add in all my financial numbers (add in $35k in savings), my total is $955k, her's is up to $1,058k.  We're over $2 Mil!!!.  And I don't have to include my house (paid off), nor either of our pensions ($30k/yr for her starting this January - I'm vested at $31k/yr starting in 4 years).  And she finally realizes our finances will be fine (she was STILL worrying???).  We need to work on merging our households this winter and fix up my house but having money will make things happen.

Well after writing this our numbers certainly tanked last fall, but we're back to $2 Mil again ($960k for me, $1,040k for her).  And she's retired now getting a pension and doing tax return work to keep active.  Will we go up and down around that mark for some time, or are we finally going to stay above?  Inquiring minds want to know.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 24, 2019, 04:28:47 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on February 23, 2019, 10:08:47 PM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on August 27, 2018, 04:53:15 PM

To make it to this group I had to include my GF's TSP numbers and our pensions.  Just today if I add in all my financial numbers (add in $35k in savings), my total is $955k, her's is up to $1,058k.  We're over $2 Mil!!!.  And I don't have to include my house (paid off), nor either of our pensions ($30k/yr for her starting this January - I'm vested at $31k/yr starting in 4 years).  And she finally realizes our finances will be fine (she was STILL worrying???).  We need to work on merging our households this winter and fix up my house but having money will make things happen.

Well after writing this our numbers certainly tanked last fall, but we're back to $2 Mil again ($960k for me, $1,040k for her).  And she's retired now getting a pension and doing tax return work to keep active.  Will we go up and down around that mark for some time, or are we finally going to stay above?  Inquiring minds want to know.

I need a couple more up days to get back to my last September Highs Dancing at that 3 mark including paid of home valued at 300 very conservatively. So to your point I hope we get it but who knows. Friday was filled with Doom and Gloom articles I read and I always like to read the comments and the one article in particular not one person disagreed with that guy up to where i read. Shouldnt of depressed myself. Guy has been predicting the collapse since the 80's.

This was the article that got to me a little bit- https://www.marketwatch.com/story/father-of-reaganomics-says-get-out-of-the-market-bonds-and-stocks-and-put-your-money-in-cash-2019-02-22?mod=hp_markets

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 24, 2019, 09:19:34 AM

We are still not back to September highs as yet, as we are suffering from falling property prices in addition to the volatility’s of stocks.

Auction clearance rates on the weekend in Sydney were the best they have been in many months, so there is a glimmer of hope that the correction’s downward slide is slowing down, but I think it might be a little wishful thinking on my part. We will see what the coming weeks results look like.

I have always been very overexposed and over leveraged to Sydney realestate, and have done well in a rising market over the past 20 years. Now the market has turned I am hemoraging a bit.

I think it could take most of 2019 to get back to my August 2018 high water mark even with a high savings rate. It really depends on how much more prices fall.

It’s a tad frustrating when I called the top of the property market in early 2017 but after much deliberation decided not to sell out of the market at that time.

The funny thing is we decided not to sell back then on the chance we might need to return to Sydney for work, and now with the drop in property prices it probably means we will end up having to work in Sydney once more (although hoping otherwise), whereas if we had sold in 2017 we would have enough in our stash not to have to work again. Hindsight is wonderful!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 01, 2019, 03:27:17 PM

Totaled up our non-529 investment accounts last night and got an amazing $1.96. You’d been warned: I’ll be joining this thread soon enough!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 01, 2019, 07:28:05 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 01, 2019, 03:27:17 PM

Totaled up our non-529 investment accounts last night and got an amazing $1.96. You’d been warned: I’ll be joining this thread soon enough!

Was this after Friday's close? If it was Thursday you should be over the bar now..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 01, 2019, 08:30:31 PM

Welcome, ysettee9! :-)

My husband finally sent me info on his accounts that I don't have login access for. We're up to $3.558M. Stock/retirement is up, we've continued to pay down our mortgage debt, all of which has led to some nice gains from this time last year. Our house value continues to be the weak spot, as zillow shows a small decline. We're not worried, as we have a significant amount of equity & aren't terribly surprised by the small blip. Still up $500K in 2 years time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 01, 2019, 10:01:06 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 01, 2019, 03:27:17 PM

Totaled up our non-529 investment accounts last night and got an amazing $1.96. You’d been warned: I’ll be joining this thread soon enough!

Come on over, @ysette9! True confession - I only spitball our number. DH has a very generous Defined Benefit Pension that he can activate in two years. I know there's a formula to calculate the value of this, but I can't be arsed. We also have rentals. It's hard to gauge what they would actually sell for. They're in a resort area, so the price can vary a lot depending when they go on the market. Most people on this thread don't include equity, but our $1.4M home is paid for and we fully intend to downsize when DH retires, so I throw it on the pile. Hell, I could even be in the "and beyond!" section. I just don't think it's that important to fret every single dollar. It's a game of horseshoes for me. Close enough still wins.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 02, 2019, 01:58:01 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 01, 2019, 10:01:06 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 01, 2019, 03:27:17 PM

Totaled up our non-529 investment accounts last night and got an amazing $1.96. You’d been warned: I’ll be joining this thread soon enough!

Come on over, @ysette9! True confession - I only spitball our number. DH has a very generous Defined Benefit Pension that he can activate in two years. I know there's a formula to calculate the value of this, but I can't be arsed. We also have rentals. It's hard to gauge what they would actually sell for. They're in a resort area, so the price can vary a lot depending when they go on the market. Most people on this thread don't include equity, but our $1.4M home is paid for and we fully intend to downsize when DH retires, so I throw it on the pile. Hell, I could even be in the "and beyond!" section. I just don't think it's that important to fret every single dollar. It's a game of horseshoes for me. Close enough still wins.

Exactly! When you are beyond a certain point it really is meaningless. If you are significantly beyond a certain point (like say 2% WR or less) its completely irrelevant. If fact its almost impossible for ones NW to not continue to climb with time.

I noted that I was down about $300k by Christmas Eve but it made no difference whatsoever, even with being retired.

The biggest problem is going to be some significant tax bills come RMD time.. Either that or we start spending a lot more money than we are now!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 02, 2019, 09:30:54 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 02, 2019, 01:58:01 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 01, 2019, 10:01:06 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 01, 2019, 03:27:17 PM

Totaled up our non-529 investment accounts last night and got an amazing $1.96. You’d been warned: I’ll be joining this thread soon enough!

Come on over, @ysette9! True confession - I only spitball our number. DH has a very generous Defined Benefit Pension that he can activate in two years. I know there's a formula to calculate the value of this, but I can't be arsed. We also have rentals. It's hard to gauge what they would actually sell for. They're in a resort area, so the price can vary a lot depending when they go on the market. Most people on this thread don't include equity, but our $1.4M home is paid for and we fully intend to downsize when DH retires, so I throw it on the pile. Hell, I could even be in the "and beyond!" section. I just don't think it's that important to fret every single dollar. It's a game of horseshoes for me. Close enough still wins.

Exactly! When you are beyond a certain point it really is meaningless. If you are significantly beyond a certain point (like say 2% WR or less) its completely irrelevant. If fact its almost impossible for ones NW to not continue to climb with time.

I noted that I was down about $300k by Christmas Eve but it made no difference whatsoever, even with being retired.

The biggest problem is going to be some significant tax bills come RMD time.. Either that or we start spending a lot more money than we are now!

Totally! I basically look at it like on April 2nd I will be fire'd 4 years and I have more than I did fire'd and for 2 years did a 5% withdrawal to do some work on the house and stuff. Might not be at my all time highs but sniffing around it and the plan is working.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 04, 2019, 05:13:51 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 01, 2019, 10:01:06 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 01, 2019, 03:27:17 PM

Totaled up our non-529 investment accounts last night and got an amazing $1.96. You’d been warned: I’ll be joining this thread soon enough!

Come on over, @ysette9! True confession - I only spitball our number. DH has a very generous Defined Benefit Pension that he can activate in two years. I know there's a formula to calculate the value of this, but I can't be arsed. We also have rentals. It's hard to gauge what they would actually sell for. They're in a resort area, so the price can vary a lot depending when they go on the market. Most people on this thread don't include equity, but our $1.4M home is paid for and we fully intend to downsize when DH retires, so I throw it on the pile. Hell, I could even be in the "and beyond!" section. I just don't think it's that important to fret every single dollar. It's a game of horseshoes for me. Close enough still wins.

I'm here if I count my pension.  I'm not in a system that connects a lump sum value to it.  I figure current vested at age 62 if I left tomorrow using the 4% rule puts it at $625,000 which moves me into this thread.  If I'm just count what I track in my accounts I'm solidly in the middle of $1-2 million arena.  I do count home value but I discount it by about 20% in part because I have chosen to keep a low cost mortgage and invest the difference.  In my mind by leveraging my home I have more invested so the home also needs to be accounted for as both an asset and a liability. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 04, 2019, 07:50:42 AM

I’ll get a pension one day! I calculated the present value of it a bit back when I was switching employers to understand what I was walking away from if I didn’t stick with the pension system. The PV of my pension is $36k. I’m rolling in it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 04, 2019, 09:12:42 AM

Perhaps I should have mentioned that DH's pension alone will generate enough for us to live on, not counting rental income, investments or SS. Crazy!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 04, 2019, 09:29:33 AM

What a wonderful position for you to be in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on March 04, 2019, 11:49:05 AM

Dicey you've rolled the dice and come up with a pair of sixes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: RWD on March 04, 2019, 11:54:54 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on March 04, 2019, 11:49:05 AM

Dicey you've rolled the dice and come up with a pair of sixes.

Looks like a 4 and a 5 to me.  =P

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 04, 2019, 12:09:18 PM

Damn Dicey!....:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on March 04, 2019, 08:13:49 PM

Wow Dicey, that means you're FREEEEEEE!  Enjoy your FI.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 05, 2019, 02:06:53 AM

Quote from: RWD on March 04, 2019, 11:54:54 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on March 04, 2019, 11:49:05 AM

Dicey you've rolled the dice and come up with a pair of sixes.

Looks like a 4 and a 5 to me.  =P

Hee, my thoughts exactly. I actually had to double check my avatar.

You guys, the best thing is that we were never huge wage earners I thought I broke $100k once when I was self employed, but the SS website says I'm smoking something. DH took a huge pay cut to take his current job, because of the excellent benefits. It is paying off beyond anything he ever expected. Also, a lot of guys try to goose their retirements by taking promotions they don't want or aren't suited for or they work tons of OT. DH can just keep cruising along, doing his thing until it's time to pull the plug. The biggest item we're holding on for is the generous healthcare package that retirees are eligible for.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 05, 2019, 04:46:12 AM

Dicey, I'm basically in the same situation.  I might have to take out less than $10000 above my pension to cover my basic living expenses (including paying the mortgage I'm not paying off.).  It really depends on COL raises until retirement plus how the equation ends up sorting out.  But I have 6.5 years left until I will qualify for subsidized health care for life. 

The funny thing for me lately is because I was hired young, I can retire young.  I've had a lot of older employees to including my boss tell me what I could do with a specific set of skills I'm currently developing as a second job/career.  I'm only developing these skills because they make my current job more interesting not because of a real interest.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 05, 2019, 06:29:52 AM

Would of been so nice to have a pension. What is it now less than 15% of the Population has a pension I read. Another good thing going bye bye.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on March 05, 2019, 09:09:05 AM

We've always been self employed, no pensions.  DH's younger brother worked for the fire department and retired a couple of years ago on 90% salary plus benefits.  The stark difference of our two situations was apparent that year.   I think our personalities are such that a corporate job wouldn't have been/wasn't  a good fit, but here, at the other end of a work career, we can't help but notice the difference.   Luckily we invested in rentals on our good years, and that's our Retirement Plan. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 05, 2019, 09:15:57 AM

I never counted on my pension even when working at a place that had it, though I suppose it isn’t a bad thing to have. The people hired after me didn’t get pension but got additional money into a separate 401k-like retirement savings account. As they froze the pension for those of us who did have it the company started increasing the 401k contributions instead. Looking back on it I would have rather had the company put more money into my 401k from the get-go,  it I think for 90% of the people out there having a pension would be a much better thing than self-directed retirement savings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on March 05, 2019, 09:26:03 AM

I don't even really consider my pension as anything when tallying up my investments.  It's small, but something.  I'll be able to take a lump sum at 65, if I want or do the payments in various options to include my wife.  I'll have to talk with her about it as we get closer.  As I understand it, I can roll the lump sum into an IRA, but that adds to RMDs, so still not sure which way I'll go.  If I do 100% continuation for my wife, I'll get $300 a month at 65.  It actually drops if I wait longer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 06, 2019, 07:16:05 AM

My pension was yanked in 2012 after 20 years of service.  They froze it and started giving us more 401k contributions.   I'd probably be better off if I'd had the 401k, with extra contributions from the start.  That being said, I never trusted the company way back in the day to honor the pension.  It's just too expensive as the number of retirees grow.  It's an annuity so it does end with death of self/spouse.  The company started in the early 70s so it took a while for the retirees that started younger to start drawing money.  Only now do we hear of the deaths of those people who started then.  Pensions are basically pyramid schemes.  They pay the early users well and for later employees there is an empty bag.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on March 08, 2019, 12:01:36 PM

Like others here both the GF and I have pensions.  When I work up our worth I certainly include an estimate for their value.  Our investments are near the $2 Mil mark (nearly a 50/50 split), and if I had to guess our pensions' worth I would put them at near $1.5 Mil.  The pensions should cover 100% of our needs when I start getting mine (she has just started getting hers, I have to wait 4 more years).

She gets the subsidzed health care for life too, and both have COLAs.

I don't include my paid off house (gotta live somewhere), nor our paid off cars in our net worth, though you certainly can.

My biggest long term concern right now is taxes down the road.  With all of her withdrawals going to be taxed I'm trying to get as much of my savings into Roth style products as I can without raising my current taxes too bad.  Once we hit 71 and have RMDs, our yearly income (2 SSI, $70k+ pension, probably $100k+ RMDs) will be so high that taxes are going to be a major headache.  Once her son is out of college (in 2 years) we're going to be converting / rolling over money to Roth every year as much as is practical (10 year window).  Its a good problem to have I guess, but still, this is going to take some work to do it right.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 10, 2019, 06:04:05 AM

After a şuckey week in the market, we just barely stayed above 2MM.  There is no such thing as slow and steady growth. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 10, 2019, 07:53:06 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 10, 2019, 06:04:05 AM

After a şuckey week in the market, we just barely stayed above 2MM.  There is no such thing as slow and steady growth.

Got that right! ouch this weak!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 10, 2019, 09:45:17 AM

Bonus and profit sharing payments are pushing us over $2 million this month. With the market flat to down, it’s a good time to get these lump sums. As we cross this milestone, I find my motivation at work changing. I feel more freedom to tell it like I see it.  I look for opportunities to help those on my team perform and grow, and to showcase and recognize their work. Instead of taking on personnel pressure to get things done, I talk about our resources and priorities, and how we need more resources (people or money) if we have so many high priorities to get done.  I still want to accomplish big things, but I feel disinclined to set myself up for a heart attack while doing so.

So I wonder, will I race from $2 million to $3 million, or will I float?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: sixwings on March 10, 2019, 10:09:26 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 06, 2019, 07:16:05 AM

My pension was yanked in 2012 after 20 years of service.  They froze it and started giving us more 401k contributions.   I'd probably be better off if I'd had the 401k, with extra contributions from the start.  That being said, I never trusted the company way back in the day to honor the pension.  It's just too expensive as the number of retirees grow.  It's an annuity so it does end with death of self/spouse.  The company started in the early 70s so it took a while for the retirees that started younger to start drawing money.  Only now do we hear of the deaths of those people who started then.  Pensions are basically pyramid schemes. They pay the early users well and for later employees there is an empty bag.

When done properly this isn't really true. I work in pension administration and unfortunately a lot of companies kicked the can down the road. They were told for decades that contributions weren't high enough and they did nothing about it hoping to figure it out in the future. The plans I administer are all 100-105% funded but our contributions are quite high (mine are 9%, employer contributes 10%). My pension formula is 2% x years of service x average of 5 highest earning years. I was a conference a few months ago and some plan administrator from the US was bragging about their plan being 53% funded... 3% contribution rates just aren't high enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on March 10, 2019, 12:51:38 PM

Quote from: sixwings on March 10, 2019, 10:09:26 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 06, 2019, 07:16:05 AM

My pension was yanked in 2012 after 20 years of service.  They froze it and started giving us more 401k contributions.   I'd probably be better off if I'd had the 401k, with extra contributions from the start.  That being said, I never trusted the company way back in the day to honor the pension.  It's just too expensive as the number of retirees grow.  It's an annuity so it does end with death of self/spouse.  The company started in the early 70s so it took a while for the retirees that started younger to start drawing money.  Only now do we hear of the deaths of those people who started then.  Pensions are basically pyramid schemes. They pay the early users well and for later employees there is an empty bag.

When done properly this isn't really true. I work in pension administration and unfortunately a lot of companies kicked the can down the road. They were told for decades that contributions weren't high enough and they did nothing about it hoping to figure it out in the future. The plans I administer are all 100-105% funded but our contributions are quite high (mine are 9%, employer contributes 10%). My pension formula is 2% x years of service x average of 5 highest earning years. I was a conference a few months ago and some plan administrator from the US was bragging about their plan being 53% funded... 3% contribution rates just aren't high enough.

I really appreciate what you're stating here. I took an accounting class that included the very complicated subject of pension accounting. There were a number of factors that could combine together to necessitate the need to increase contributions to a pension fund, a bad year in the markets, a declining discount rate, etc.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 11, 2019, 12:49:32 AM

Any of you guys do a Millionaire interview?   Podcast or YouTube?   My life is so boring I'd be the dullest millionaire on the planet.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 11, 2019, 04:16:37 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 11, 2019, 12:49:32 AM

Any of you guys do a Millionaire interview?   Podcast or YouTube?   My life is so boring I'd be the dullest millionaire on the planet.

I almost called up Dave Ramsey once.. But nah..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 11, 2019, 04:45:01 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 11, 2019, 12:49:32 AM

Any of you guys do a Millionaire interview?   Podcast or YouTube?   My life is so boring I'd be the dullest millionaire on the planet.

How about a million pennies?  Would that count?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: onlykelsey on March 11, 2019, 07:47:51 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on March 10, 2019, 12:51:38 PM

Quote from: sixwings on March 10, 2019, 10:09:26 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 06, 2019, 07:16:05 AM

My pension was yanked in 2012 after 20 years of service.  They froze it and started giving us more 401k contributions.   I'd probably be better off if I'd had the 401k, with extra contributions from the start.  That being said, I never trusted the company way back in the day to honor the pension.  It's just too expensive as the number of retirees grow.  It's an annuity so it does end with death of self/spouse.  The company started in the early 70s so it took a while for the retirees that started younger to start drawing money.  Only now do we hear of the deaths of those people who started then.  Pensions are basically pyramid schemes. They pay the early users well and for later employees there is an empty bag.

When done properly this isn't really true. I work in pension administration and unfortunately a lot of companies kicked the can down the road. They were told for decades that contributions weren't high enough and they did nothing about it hoping to figure it out in the future. The plans I administer are all 100-105% funded but our contributions are quite high (mine are 9%, employer contributes 10%). My pension formula is 2% x years of service x average of 5 highest earning years. I was a conference a few months ago and some plan administrator from the US was bragging about their plan being 53% funded... 3% contribution rates just aren't high enough.

I really appreciate what you're stating here. I took an accounting class that included the very complicated subject of pension accounting. There were a number of factors that could combine together to necessitate the need to increase contributions to a pension fund, a bad year in the markets, a declining discount rate, etc.

If you ever want to be horrified, read Kentucky Fried Pensions.

That said, I'm considering going to work for one, so I'd be exposed to the risk both as an employee and as a beneficiary of the plan.  They're ~90% funded which is about as good as it gets now, I think.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 11, 2019, 07:56:04 AM

Hmmm, I think we need to look into how well DH's pension is funded. Thanks for this!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 11, 2019, 11:45:27 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 11, 2019, 07:56:04 AM

Hmmm, I think we need to look into how well DH's pension is funded. Thanks for this!

We did get warning letters telling us how many millions our pension was underfunded.   They had no choice, it's required by law.

Then, they legally froze the pensions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 11, 2019, 08:48:05 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 11, 2019, 11:45:27 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 11, 2019, 07:56:04 AM

Hmmm, I think we need to look into how well DH's pension is funded. Thanks for this!

We did get warning letters telling us how many millions our pension was underfunded.   They had no choice, it's required by law.

Then, they legally froze the pensions.

After today you're firmly back in the club no?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 11, 2019, 11:48:36 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 11, 2019, 07:56:04 AM

Hmmm, I think we need to look into how well DH's pension is funded. Thanks for this!

Ruh-roh. DH says they report there's $453M in their pension fund. He says they've been reporting the same number for nearly twenty years. His contribution was 6.75% when he started, but pension reform in 2013 bumped it to 8.75%. Trouble is, we have no idea what their projected liabilities are. DH says he'll look into it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: onlykelsey on March 12, 2019, 08:00:51 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 11, 2019, 11:48:36 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 11, 2019, 07:56:04 AM

Hmmm, I think we need to look into how well DH's pension is funded. Thanks for this!

Ruh-roh. DH says they report there's $453M in their pension fund. He says they've been reporting the same number for nearly twenty years. His contribution was 6.75% when he started, but pension reform in 2013 bumped it to 8.75%. Trouble is, we have no idea what their projected liabilities are. DH says he'll look into it.

Is it a pension of a public company? government?  Might be able to help you find it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 12, 2019, 10:18:02 AM

Quote from: onlykelsey on March 12, 2019, 08:00:51 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 11, 2019, 11:48:36 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 11, 2019, 07:56:04 AM

Hmmm, I think we need to look into how well DH's pension is funded. Thanks for this!

Ruh-roh. DH says they report there's $453M in their pension fund. He says they've been reporting the same number for nearly twenty years. His contribution was 6.75% when he started, but pension reform in 2013 bumped it to 8.75%. Trouble is, we have no idea what their projected liabilities are. DH says he'll look into it.

Is it a pension of a public company? government?  Might be able to help you find it.

Thanks, I'll PM you if we can't find it. DH thinks he has access to it. He says he only remembers the total, because it doesn't vary much from year to year, which he finds suspicious.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 12, 2019, 01:16:36 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 11, 2019, 08:48:05 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 11, 2019, 11:45:27 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 11, 2019, 07:56:04 AM

Hmmm, I think we need to look into how well DH's pension is funded. Thanks for this!

We did get warning letters telling us how many millions our pension was underfunded.   They had no choice, it's required by law.

Then, they legally froze the pensions.

After today you're firmly back in the club no?

Oh yea.  Still in the club.  I've only crossed the 2MM investments line by a few tens of thousands.   I'm hoping to get a few hundred thousand past and will feel much safer.  I've all but decided that I'm waiting on the 2020 election to pass before FIRE.  So the Firehose is still filling the tank.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on March 13, 2019, 01:23:22 PM

Happily sitting in the middle of this demographic, give or take market fluctuations.

No pensions in our future but according to our current projections we turn net positive income from SS alone when we decide to start it.  Will probably hold out until I hit 70 provided our health stays good.  After that the nest egg just keeps growing.  Definite MPP.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 13, 2019, 04:49:44 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on March 13, 2019, 01:23:22 PM

Happily sitting in the middle of this demographic, give or take market fluctuations.

No pensions in our future but according to our current projections we turn net positive income from SS alone when we decide to start it.  Will probably hold out until I hit 70 provided our health stays good.  After that the nest egg just keeps growing.  Definite MPP.

But are you sure you will have enough money?...;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on March 13, 2019, 09:24:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 13, 2019, 04:49:44 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on March 13, 2019, 01:23:22 PM

Happily sitting in the middle of this demographic, give or take market fluctuations.

No pensions in our future but according to our current projections we turn net positive income from SS alone when we decide to start it.  Will probably hold out until I hit 70 provided our health stays good.  After that the nest egg just keeps growing.  Definite MPP.

But are you sure you will have enough money?...;)

DW is not convinced.  She does not like market fluctuations at all.  Explaining why being down for 2018 didn't really matter was difficult.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 14, 2019, 12:40:55 AM

Quote from: Threshkin on March 13, 2019, 09:24:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 13, 2019, 04:49:44 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on March 13, 2019, 01:23:22 PM

Happily sitting in the middle of this demographic, give or take market fluctuations.

No pensions in our future but according to our current projections we turn net positive income from SS alone when we decide to start it.  Will probably hold out until I hit 70 provided our health stays good.  After that the nest egg just keeps growing.  Definite MPP.

But are you sure you will have enough money?...;)

DW is not convinced.  She does not like market fluctuations at all.  Explaining why being down for 2018 didn't really matter was difficult.

Yeah thats a tough one.. Heck I had a hard enough time trying to convince myself!.. Fortunately my DW doesn't care about money..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 16, 2019, 05:19:31 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 14, 2019, 12:40:55 AM

Quote from: Threshkin on March 13, 2019, 09:24:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 13, 2019, 04:49:44 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on March 13, 2019, 01:23:22 PM

Happily sitting in the middle of this demographic, give or take market fluctuations.

No pensions in our future but according to our current projections we turn net positive income from SS alone when we decide to start it.  Will probably hold out until I hit 70 provided our health stays good.  After that the nest egg just keeps growing.  Definite MPP.

But are you sure you will have enough money?...;)

DW is not convinced.  She does not like market fluctuations at all.  Explaining why being down for 2018 didn't really matter was difficult.

Yeah thats a tough one.. Heck I had a hard enough time trying to convince myself!.. Fortunately my DW doesn't care about money..:)

Yea fortunately I am in the same boat in that my DW leaves everything up to me and doesnt care about $  as long as I just keep saying were fine shes ok or trusts me. Sometimes I wish she would be a little more involved as shes probably smarter than me but better becareful what i wish for lol!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 16, 2019, 09:23:30 AM

Well shit!  More money than I've ever had again!  Damn market fluctuations.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 16, 2019, 03:30:01 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 16, 2019, 09:23:30 AM

Well shit!  More money than I've ever had again!  Damn market fluctuations.

Yes - It's nice to have that stock market working for you.  Question for you esteemed gentlemen and ladies:

Looking at the Dow Jones curve, it's been around 25,000 for most of 2018 and now 2019.  Could this be considered a new normal if there is such a thing?  The curve has been sort of flat since the end of 2017 except for the brief dip around Christmas.

I'd hate all the 2million dollar racers to slide off the track.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 16, 2019, 04:51:11 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 16, 2019, 03:30:01 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 16, 2019, 09:23:30 AM

Well shit!  More money than I've ever had again!  Damn market fluctuations.

Yes - It's nice to have that stock market working for you.  Question for you esteemed gentlemen and ladies:

Looking at the Dow Jones curve, it's been around 25,000 for most of 2018 and now 2019.  Could this be considered a new normal if there is such a thing?  The curve has been sort of flat since the end of 2017 except for the brief dip around Christmas.

I'd hate all the 2million dollar racers to slide off the track.

Well the point is we WILL slide off the track and frequently! Be that with $1M or $5M. When that happens its called a "buying opportunity"..:)

This is the new normal for a while most likely until growth in profits make the current stock prices more in line with history (stocks are arguably a little over valued right now). But when growth makes stocks look fairly valued the stock prices will rise again.

The problem is you don't know if stock prices will continue to rise from here based on emotion/animal spirits alone.. They might and DOW 25,000 might be a distant memory in a few months time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 16, 2019, 10:50:33 PM

/\

What he said.  We coukd park at 25k bouncing up and down for years or we could bound off past 30k

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 16, 2019, 11:11:45 PM

Personally, to me, this doesn't feel like the 2000 crash (Greenspan warning about irrational exuberance) or 2008 crash (Bernake reluctantly telling Congress to throw an 800B TARP out and continue quantitative easing after ZIRP failed), this feels like everyone in control is rooting for continued growth forever.  The economy would probably do well with the Fed reducing its balance sheet, raising rates so that bonds made a good alternative to stocks again, and not having such crazy domestic and trade deficits.  If the rest of the world weren't in such turmoil, then the strong dollar would not be there to make pretty much everything US so appetizing.

I have a feeling I'm going to have to work pretty hard for the next million :)  But the second and third were pretty easy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 17, 2019, 05:33:13 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 16, 2019, 11:11:45 PM

Personally, to me, this doesn't feel like the 2000 crash (Greenspan warning about irrational exuberance) or 2008 crash (Bernake reluctantly telling Congress to throw an 800B TARP out and continue quantitative easing after ZIRP failed), this feels like everyone in control is rooting for continued growth forever.  The economy would probably do well with the Fed reducing its balance sheet, raising rates so that bonds made a good alternative to stocks again, and not having such crazy domestic and trade deficits.  If the rest of the world weren't in such turmoil, then the strong dollar would not be there to make pretty much everything US so appetizing.

I have a feeling I'm going to have to work pretty hard for the next million :)  But the second and third were pretty easy.

I tend to agree ^.  The dips have also shown that there are a lot of people willing to get back in or new money people are wanting to get in wanting to start investing. The longer we sit here the more that money is building up.  With being near the higher end of the curve most people seemingly would want to wait or keep buying the dips. I personally believe that's why its been so flat. I do think we could go higher if a deal is done with China and something comes of the next North Korea meeting as the market has been moving on more on what comes out of peoples mouths then only companies performance. Or at least more than normal.  I also would like to see a rate increase to help as well and think it would create another dip for awhile for another buying opportunity. The market just continues to prove that nobody knows jack.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on March 18, 2019, 08:45:08 AM

Well, just a note to mark clicking over the $2.4 mark in liquid investments as of today.  2018 was a horrible year for my family and black swan events cost a lot of money.  With all that behind now and actually earning more money than is going out, I put in our Roth contributions for 2018, completed my tax returns (good refund net) and have a far clearer path for the family.  Did the spread sheet update this morning and so long as we don't get a huge market tank, I expect the "4" will stick.

Out of our last year's events, I've decided to postpone retirement.  It's going to take a while for us to really settle down and accept that life is normal again anyways, so I'm not going to upset the wife with a big change.  I'm too old to retire "early" anyways, so there's nothing being really lost there.  I think I've resolved that the new number might be 65 as I can take a small pension at that point and our savings will easily hit 50X spending.  The house has been paid of forever and none of the cars have loans on them. 

Thanks for the MMM forum for having a venue to express the results of our continued frugal ways.  There isn't another place I know of where this is considered "normal".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 18, 2019, 03:26:52 PM

Great job @Car Jack ..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on March 19, 2019, 06:56:58 PM

Hey @Car Jack , it sounds like the worst is behind you and things are starting to return to normal.  Hope all is well from here on out.   There's nothing wrong with retiring well at 65.  (We're not early Retirees either, DH just hit the big 6 5)  You've got a good plan and keeping the stress down at home after a stressful year is important.  You're taking care of the people you love.  KUDOS!  We're with you...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 20, 2019, 12:01:44 AM

We're here CarJack.  Hope it smoothes out a bit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 20, 2019, 05:07:37 AM

Best of 2019 For ya @Car Jack ! Sounds like your in pretty good finacial shape actually great financial shape so hopefully thats not a stress er on ya!

I'm with ya on the taxes thing I got mine done and sent in to my accountant a couples days ago and feels good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 20, 2019, 02:00:44 PM

My husband sent me a text late last night that read: “2,001,175!!!”

We are in the club, folks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 20, 2019, 02:27:15 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 20, 2019, 02:00:44 PM

My husband sent me a text late last night that read: “2,001,175!!!”

We are in the club, folks.

Woohoo...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 20, 2019, 03:08:46 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 20, 2019, 02:00:44 PM

My husband sent me a text late last night that read: “2,001,175!!!”

We are in the club, folks.

Alrighty!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: honeyfill on March 20, 2019, 04:53:38 PM

Still in the Club.  As a matter of fact , we have almost exactly the same net worth we had when we retired last July.  When the market dropped last fall, I started putting out feelers for some consulting work and fell into a job that pays 20% more than I was making before. And I will not have to be a manager. I get to be a regular engineer doing cool stuff.  I guess that makes me a retirement failure but it feels like a win to me!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 20, 2019, 05:33:42 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on March 20, 2019, 04:53:38 PM

Still in the Club.  As a matter of fact , we have almost exactly the same net worth we had when we retired last July.  When the market dropped last fall, I started putting out feelers for some consulting work and fell into a job that pays 20% more than I was making before. And I will not have to be a manager. I get to be a regular engineer doing cool stuff.  I guess that makes me a retirement failure but it feels like a win to me!

Watch out for the IRP.. They are relentless.. Ask me how I know...;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 20, 2019, 11:11:49 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 20, 2019, 05:33:42 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on March 20, 2019, 04:53:38 PM

Still in the Club.  As a matter of fact , we have almost exactly the same net worth we had when we retired last July.  When the market dropped last fall, I started putting out feelers for some consulting work and fell into a job that pays 20% more than I was making before. And I will not have to be a manager. I get to be a regular engineer doing cool stuff.  I guess that makes me a retirement failure but it feels like a win to me!

Watch out for the IRP.. They are relentless.. Ask me how I know...;)

Well, maybe honeyfill won't turn out to be a repeat offender. There's a much higher level of enforcement for recidivists.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 21, 2019, 12:05:29 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 20, 2019, 11:11:49 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 20, 2019, 05:33:42 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on March 20, 2019, 04:53:38 PM

Still in the Club.  As a matter of fact , we have almost exactly the same net worth we had when we retired last July.  When the market dropped last fall, I started putting out feelers for some consulting work and fell into a job that pays 20% more than I was making before. And I will not have to be a manager. I get to be a regular engineer doing cool stuff.  I guess that makes me a retirement failure but it feels like a win to me!

Watch out for the IRP.. They are relentless.. Ask me how I know...;)

Well, maybe honeyfill won't turn out to be a repeat offender. There's a much higher level of enforcement for recidivists.

Oh goody (says the masochist under his breath)...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 21, 2019, 06:37:29 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 20, 2019, 03:08:46 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 20, 2019, 02:00:44 PM

My husband sent me a text late last night that read: “2,001,175!!!”

We are in the club, folks.

Alrighty!

Congrats! thats awesome!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on March 21, 2019, 12:50:01 PM

Attended a mid-career retirement seminar at work this week.  Figured I should as I am four years away from my pension.  Presenter confirmed what I have been saying for some time - if you have a decent pension you need to save as much as practical in Roth as taxes are only going to get worse once you retire.  I just went into the retirement online system and upped the Roth/Trad ratio again.  I am now putting in 90% of my money as Roth.  Also was told something new - I am supposed to be able to pick which bucket of money to withdraw from - it previously had to be proportional.  If this is true I won't need to setup IRA accounts to pull out money and roll into Roth.  Now I can just do in-plan rollovers to Roth for my conversions, and when I hit RMD time I will have full flexibility to pull out just the right money amounts from each bucket to easily hit my tax targets.  I am psyched.

This retirement thing is no longer some mystical thing out in the fog... its getting real.  And its looking better.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 21, 2019, 01:03:28 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 20, 2019, 02:00:44 PM

My husband sent me a text late last night that read: “2,001,175!!!”

We are in the club, folks.

In my mind, you've been here for weeks, if not months. Glad you finally made the leap. Welcome, MMM Friend!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 21, 2019, 01:17:19 PM

@PhrugalPhan I think retirement looks pretty good to anyone with $2M+.. Especially those of us with pensions in addition.

I didn't know you could roll between traditional 401k and Roth 401k either.. Not sure it makes much difference as that is the same as rolling between your Trad 401k and a Roth IRA.. with a couple more steps no?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: wannabe-stache on March 21, 2019, 01:48:25 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on September 15, 2017, 08:34:01 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 05, 2017, 09:22:08 PM

Don't mind me.  Still in my 40's and I'm being all winey pants about 2 million NW.  Facepunch, double facepunch.  It's all good. 

Actually had to meditate about buying a new leaf blower a few days ago.   It was  $150 at Lowes $165 with tax, found it for $125 at Amazon with no tax or shipping.  WTF!  I'm a dang millionaire, hell technically a multimillionaire on the lowest rung.  I'm debating a leaf blower purchase.   You people have ruined my life.

This is exactly what I am dealing with.  We are in Miami and post-Irma (and post-telling my landscaper he wasn't needed anymore), i realized i really need a rake and a leaf blower.  so i went online to find used items.  i didn't find MMM until 4 months ago, otherwise i would have trotted over to home depot and bought brand new stuff without even thinking about it.

with that, i am jumping into this thread.  DW and i are 34 and 37 respectively and due to high incomes and, despite our below average savings rates, we have $1.6M invested and $2.3M with the home equity.  if i had found MMM 3 years ago i have no doubt we would have way more than $1.6M invested...

nice update on this post from around 18 months ago...we are over $2.6M investments and $3.47M with home equity.  surely a crash is coming.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 21, 2019, 01:59:51 PM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on March 21, 2019, 12:50:01 PM

- SNIP -

This retirement thing is no long some mystical thing out in the fog... its getting real.  And its looking better.

Yah - Dow Jones is presently just a smidgeon under 26,000.  It is looking real. 

When I was a younger man in my twenties, I was completing a 60 mile bike ride one Saturday.  I was feeling pretty good about it.

I was on a long flat stretch of road in Minnesota.

There was this dot behind me.

I rode on and the dot became bigger.

The dot passed me in a blur.  It was another cyclist.

I caught up to him at a gas station.  It was a 57 year old retiree.  He had started 200 or so miles back in Fargo that morning.  He told me one of his dreams was to cycle to what he considered all 4 corners of the United States.  And he did.  He was heading back home to St. Paul.

I am approaching that time where I could maybe get into that kind of shape and maybe have a piece of the dream he had.

It is looking better.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on March 21, 2019, 02:01:38 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 21, 2019, 01:17:19 PM

@PhrugalPhan I think retirement looks pretty good to anyone with $2M+.. Especially those of us with pensions in addition.

I didn't know you could roll between traditional 401k and Roth 401k either.. Not sure it makes much difference as that is the same as rolling between your Trad 401k and a Roth IRA.. with a couple more steps no?

I'm in a 457 plan, but you are right, I am just able to avoid some extra steps and having a few less accounts with the ability to do in-plan rollovers.  Also in my case the funds available have low fees so I want to stay with them if I can, plus there is the issue of some states giving more legal protections to these type of retirement vehicles.  But with all of that, yes, I am just thrilled not having to go through the setup process and money transfers each year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 21, 2019, 02:28:57 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 21, 2019, 01:03:28 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 20, 2019, 02:00:44 PM

My husband sent me a text late last night that read: “2,001,175!!!”

We are in the club, folks.

In my mind, you've been here for weeks, if not months. Glad you finally made the leap. Welcome, MMM Friend!

Thanks!

I know there is the never-ending debate on whether to include home equity or not. Our nominal plan is to stay put so I don’t. And in any case we would need to live somewhere even if we did sell and move. However I can see a legit case for including home equity. I do keep 529 money completely out as I don’t really consider it “our” money but more money that we are stewards of on behalf of our littles.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 22, 2019, 09:28:29 PM

Well, this week could be bad news.  The Fed went full dove mode and the market couldn't get excited.  That is never a good sign.

But as I was thinking in my last post, if the Fed doesn't raise rates, then people don't pony up to buy bonds with a better yield.  The curve actually inverted this time, since there really wasn't a reason not to raise or favor raising, so we may be in no man's land for a while.  Trump may think he's a Nobel Prize worthy economist, but jamming the accelerator during a time when you should be rebuilding and laying the groundwork to fight a recession is an amateur flub.  Rewarding the rich (via tax cuts and low borrowing rates) for doing nothing doesn't even get us a tech/housing/etc. bubble!  It just makes the US economy weaker at a time when it has nothing but tailwinds.  Honestly, we could be kicking so much a$$ right now if we were enticing the best minds to live here by behaving like a Renaissance Enlightenment society and not the Dark Ages... 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 22, 2019, 11:09:48 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 21, 2019, 01:59:51 PM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on March 21, 2019, 12:50:01 PM

- SNIP -

This retirement thing is no long some mystical thing out in the fog... its getting real.  And its looking better.

Yah - Dow Jones is presently just a smidgeon under 26,000.  It is looking real. 

When I was a younger man in my twenties, I was completing a 60 mile bike ride one Saturday.  I was feeling pretty good about it.

I was on a long flat stretch of road in Minnesota.

There was this dot behind me.

I rode on and the dot became bigger.

The dot passed me in a blur.  It was another cyclist.

I caught up to him at a gas station.  It was a 57 year old retiree.  He had started 200 or so miles back in Fargo that morning.  He told me one of his dreams was to cycle to what he considered all 4 corners of the United States.  And he did.  He was heading back home to St. Paul.

I am approaching that time where I could maybe get into that kind of shape and maybe have a piece of the dream he had.

It is looking better.

I'm hoping to spend many days in the saddle soon.  The Tour Divide is high on my list.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 22, 2019, 11:17:27 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 22, 2019, 09:28:29 PM

Well, this week could be bad news.  The Fed went full dove mode and the market couldn't get excited.  That is never a good sign.

But as I was thinking in my last post, if the Fed doesn't raise rates, then people don't pony up to buy bonds with a better yield.  The curve actually inverted this time, since there really wasn't a reason not to raise or favor raising, so we may be in no man's land for a while.  Trump may think he's a Nobel Prize worthy economist, but jamming the accelerator during a time when you should be rebuilding and laying the groundwork to fight a recession is an amateur flub.  Rewarding the rich (via tax cuts and low borrowing rates) for doing nothing doesn't even get us a tech/housing/etc. bubble!  It just makes the US economy weaker at a time when it has nothing but tailwinds.  Honestly, we could be kicking so much a$$ right now if we were enticing the best minds to live here by behaving like a Renaissance Enlightenment society and not the Dark Ages...

Well said.  That huge drop today could be a sign of more to come.  I could be kicked out of the 2MM club again.  We'll see how it settles.  If not for any other reason, I'm going for 2.5MM just because it aggregates me so much to dip below 2MM constantly.  I'd hate to FIRE and perpetually be bouncing back and forth across the 2MM line. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 22, 2019, 11:48:41 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 22, 2019, 11:17:27 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 22, 2019, 09:28:29 PM

Well, this week could be bad news.  The Fed went full dove mode and the market couldn't get excited.  That is never a good sign.

But as I was thinking in my last post, if the Fed doesn't raise rates, then people don't pony up to buy bonds with a better yield.  The curve actually inverted this time, since there really wasn't a reason not to raise or favor raising, so we may be in no man's land for a while.  Trump may think he's a Nobel Prize worthy economist, but jamming the accelerator during a time when you should be rebuilding and laying the groundwork to fight a recession is an amateur flub.  Rewarding the rich (via tax cuts and low borrowing rates) for doing nothing doesn't even get us a tech/housing/etc. bubble!  It just makes the US economy weaker at a time when it has nothing but tailwinds.  Honestly, we could be kicking so much a$$ right now if we were enticing the best minds to live here by behaving like a Renaissance Enlightenment society and not the Dark Ages...

Well said.  That huge drop today could be a sign of more to come.  I could be kicked out of the 2MM club again.  We'll see how it settles.  If not for any other reason, I'm going for 2.5MM just because it aggregates me so much to dip below 2MM constantly.  I'd hate to FIRE and perpetually be bouncing back and forth across the 2MM line.

I know that would be awful!.. wait...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 23, 2019, 04:12:07 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 22, 2019, 11:48:41 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 22, 2019, 11:17:27 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 22, 2019, 09:28:29 PM

Well, this week could be bad news.  The Fed went full dove mode and the market couldn't get excited.  That is never a good sign.

But as I was thinking in my last post, if the Fed doesn't raise rates, then people don't pony up to buy bonds with a better yield.  The curve actually inverted this time, since there really wasn't a reason not to raise or favor raising, so we may be in no man's land for a while.  Trump may think he's a Nobel Prize worthy economist, but jamming the accelerator during a time when you should be rebuilding and laying the groundwork to fight a recession is an amateur flub.  Rewarding the rich (via tax cuts and low borrowing rates) for doing nothing doesn't even get us a tech/housing/etc. bubble!  It just makes the US economy weaker at a time when it has nothing but tailwinds.  Honestly, we could be kicking so much a$$ right now if we were enticing the best minds to live here by behaving like a Renaissance Enlightenment society and not the Dark Ages...

Well said.  That huge drop today could be a sign of more to come.  I could be kicked out of the 2MM club again.  We'll see how it settles.  If not for any other reason, I'm going for 2.5MM just because it aggregates me so much to dip below 2MM constantly.  I'd hate to FIRE and perpetually be bouncing back and forth across the 2MM line.

I know that would be awful!.. wait...:)

Joyously still in.  Just updated only lost 20k.  Not even enough to buy a discount Tesla 3.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 23, 2019, 05:35:35 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 23, 2019, 04:12:07 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 22, 2019, 11:48:41 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 22, 2019, 11:17:27 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 22, 2019, 09:28:29 PM

Well, this week could be bad news.  The Fed went full dove mode and the market couldn't get excited.  That is never a good sign.

But as I was thinking in my last post, if the Fed doesn't raise rates, then people don't pony up to buy bonds with a better yield.  The curve actually inverted this time, since there really wasn't a reason not to raise or favor raising, so we may be in no man's land for a while.  Trump may think he's a Nobel Prize worthy economist, but jamming the accelerator during a time when you should be rebuilding and laying the groundwork to fight a recession is an amateur flub.  Rewarding the rich (via tax cuts and low borrowing rates) for doing nothing doesn't even get us a tech/housing/etc. bubble!  It just makes the US economy weaker at a time when it has nothing but tailwinds.  Honestly, we could be kicking so much a$$ right now if we were enticing the best minds to live here by behaving like a Renaissance Enlightenment society and not the Dark Ages...

Well said.  That huge drop today could be a sign of more to come.  I could be kicked out of the 2MM club again.  We'll see how it settles.  If not for any other reason, I'm going for 2.5MM just because it aggregates me so much to dip below 2MM constantly.  I'd hate to FIRE and perpetually be bouncing back and forth across the 2MM line.

I know that would be awful!.. wait...:)

Joyously still in.  Just updated only lost 20k.  Not even enough to buy a discount Tesla 3.

My foot was lifted and ready to tap to a new high for the second time and NO knocked down over 24k.  Peaks and valleys! Market has made no sense in along time anyhow

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 23, 2019, 08:09:30 AM

Same here.. I was $13k short of a new all time personal high.. and.. Now I'm not..

Going forward I predict more pain in the short term... But I am wrong at least 50% of the time..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on March 23, 2019, 12:08:20 PM

Friday was....painful.  Down $38K.

But I am still up from the last dip around March 10 so all is good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 27, 2019, 05:15:33 AM

I may be naive, but I see help wanted signs all over.  I get several unsolicited e-mails every week telling me of "opportunities."  It looks like there is work out there.  With people working, making and spending money, these seem to be good times.  Can I expect a high probability of the market bumping up a bit or at least staying where it is at?  Is a sea change coming with excess credit crashing us down again?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 27, 2019, 05:38:53 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 27, 2019, 05:15:33 AM

I may be naive, but I see help wanted signs all over.  I get several unsolicited e-mails every week telling me of "opportunities."  It looks like there is work out there.  With people working, making and spending money, these seem to be good times.  Can I expect a high probability of the market bumping up a bit or at least staying where it is at?  Is a sea change coming with excess credit crashing us down again?

No one knows. Where I live I don't think there is a place that isn't hiring. Like you i get pounded with emails. There is so much commercial construction in our area I wonder where they are going to find all the workers. But anyone that wants a job can get one near us anyhow. The flipside is Personal credit card debt is much higher than it was before 2008, Fuel is on the rise I think like 50 cents near me in the last month or so and Banks are advertising minimum down payments again for mortgages. My guess if I had to make one is we stay in this range for awhile and up and down more on news.


In other news I got my taxes finally completed and am getting back just under 500$ so not to shabby. My state I owe and my fed I get back more than I owe in state.

@Bateaux  2.5M is a great number I personally like after hearing the Jcollins version of FU money https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikbQPldhPY

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on March 27, 2019, 11:33:22 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 27, 2019, 05:15:33 AM

I may be naive, but I see help wanted signs all over.  I get several unsolicited e-mails every week telling me of "opportunities."  It looks like there is work out there.  With people working, making and spending money, these seem to be good times.  Can I expect a high probability of the market bumping up a bit or at least staying where it is at?  Is a sea change coming with excess credit crashing us down again?

But we're in trade wars with everyone.  Farmers are getting hammered with crop prices half what they were a year ago.  My company manufacturers all over the world and cannot determine what's touched by China and what's not, so we've assumed everything is and increased prices for all of our customers based on the likelihood that China tariffs will hit everything.  This has reduced sales.  US factory people are being cut as a result. 

On the bright side, people who had steady factory jobs at $25 an hour with benefits can now work at Taco Bell at $10 an hour with no benefits.  Making America Great Again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 27, 2019, 07:23:11 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on March 27, 2019, 11:33:22 AM

- SNIP-

But we're in trade wars with everyone.  Farmers are getting hammered with crop prices half what they were a year ago.  My company manufacturers all over the world and cannot determine what's touched by China and what's not, so we've assumed everything is and increased prices for all of our customers based on the likelihood that China tariffs will hit everything.  This has reduced sales.  US factory people are being cut as a result. 

On the bright side, people who had steady factory jobs at $25 an hour with benefits can now work at Taco Bell at $10 an hour with no benefits.  Making America Great Again.

They say that is the difference between America and some of the other countries.  Your management is raising prices.  Other countries have the idea of increasing market share.  There will no longer be American cars sold only SUVs and trucks.  There will still be cars sold.  Someone has that share of the market and it is not American companies.  They went from all to none.  Some of the folks who made the cars will be making tacos.

Still times are good and I should be able to get out soon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 28, 2019, 02:52:09 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 27, 2019, 07:23:11 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on March 27, 2019, 11:33:22 AM

- SNIP-

But we're in trade wars with everyone.  Farmers are getting hammered with crop prices half what they were a year ago.  My company manufacturers all over the world and cannot determine what's touched by China and what's not, so we've assumed everything is and increased prices for all of our customers based on the likelihood that China tariffs will hit everything.  This has reduced sales.  US factory people are being cut as a result. 

On the bright side, people who had steady factory jobs at $25 an hour with benefits can now work at Taco Bell at $10 an hour with no benefits.  Making America Great Again.

They say that is the difference between America and some of the other countries.  Your management is raising prices.  Other countries have the idea of increasing market share.  There will no longer be American cars sold only SUVs and trucks.  There will still be cars sold.  Someone has that share of the market and it is not American companies.  They went from all to none.  Some of the folks who made the cars will be making tacos.

Still times are good and I should be able to get out soon.

I'm hoping were near an end on this whole China thing. Thats why it seems like the market is trading around the news on getting a deal done. It has been confusing to say the least but anytime we seem to be getting close to nailing things down the Market pops on it. I think its been more just knowing a resolution. Time will tell. Plenty of foreign companies have cut making cars as well. Seems that crossovers is just what people want all over. If fuel prices keep going up that will be the changer again. Thats what really seems to mess up the autos is the nearly 2$ swings in fuel prices. People have short memories and gas goes down bigger autos are sold and then gas goes up companies have to re-tool and boom. Thats why I went to all gas savers a few years back and am staying there. lessen learned.
Well we will see.

Also we do have several manufacturing plants going up by us. One is going to be done in 2020 and is hiring 30k workers and is working with the state colleges to try and get workers. Around here it doesnt take much to get a basic job for around 20$ an hour entry level and vs 10$ at the restaurants. Even the gas stations are paying 12$ or 13$ for third shift. Does feel like a house of cards though.

Staying optimistic. Though I have been preparing for a down turn It would be great to get another 2  years out of this because that would be 2 out of college and done with 2 to go!

Fingers crossed!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 28, 2019, 04:26:30 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 28, 2019, 02:52:09 AM

-SNIP-

Also we do have several manufacturing plants going up by us. One is going to be done in 2020 and is hiring 30k workers and is working with the state colleges to try and get workers. Around here it doesnt take much to get a basic job for around 20$ an hour entry level and vs 10$ at the restaurants. Even the gas stations are paying 12$ or 13$ for third shift. Does feel like a house of cards though.

Staying optimistic. Though I have been preparing for a down turn It would be great to get another 2  years out of this because that would be 2 out of college and done with 2 to go!

Fingers crossed!

That's great!  Thirty thousand workers in the Arctic Midwest.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on March 28, 2019, 05:23:30 PM

Residential and commercial construction is suffering slowdowns nationwide because they cannot hire enough workers.  Many companies are paying for training and sign on bonuses to get the workers they need.  These are not $10/hour jobs.

Manufacturing employment is surging in many areas as well.  These are not $10/hour jobs.

Will there be another recession? Of course.  When?  Who knows.  Tomorrow?  Unlikely.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 29, 2019, 03:53:11 AM

Quote from: Threshkin on March 28, 2019, 05:23:30 PM

Residential and commercial construction is suffering slowdowns nationwide because they cannot hire enough workers.  Many companies are paying for training and sign on bonuses to get the workers they need.  These are not $10/hour jobs.

Manufacturing employment is surging in many areas as well.  These are not $10/hour jobs.

Will there be another recession? Of course.  When?  Who knows.  Tomorrow?  Unlikely.

Quote from: pecunia on March 28, 2019, 04:26:30 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 28, 2019, 02:52:09 AM

-SNIP-

Also we do have several manufacturing plants going up by us. One is going to be done in 2020 and is hiring 30k workers and is working with the state colleges to try and get workers. Around here it doesnt take much to get a basic job for around 20$ an hour entry level and vs 10$ at the restaurants. Even the gas stations are paying 12$ or 13$ for third shift. Does feel like a house of cards though.

Staying optimistic. Though I have been preparing for a down turn It would be great to get another 2  years out of this because that would be 2 out of college and done with 2 to go!

Fingers crossed!

That's great!  Thirty thousand workers in the Arctic Midwest.

I live in SE WI and the corridor between WI and Il (Chicago) is basically combining the two cities (Milwaukee and Chicago). Companies are building like Crazy on our side of the border to avoid Illinois taxes and with it is a construction boom. I am about an hour away of that corridor thankfully as we have tons of commercial and residential building going up by us as well. Alot of small to medium sized companies. But along that corridor they have already built a monster Amazon distribution Center. Then they started building another Amazon building about 10 miles further up the freeway. Uline just keeps building one building after another, Foxcon is building a huge plant and so on. so much going on its a mess with the freeway and all.

I have been wondering the last couple years how there going to fill all these jobs and you can see all the minimum wage jobs suffer from it as well. Like i mentioned you cant pass a building thats not hiring. Also makes you wonder if these businesses are just going to keep working to get smarter with technology to avoid hiring people.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on March 29, 2019, 04:59:56 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 28, 2019, 04:26:30 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 28, 2019, 02:52:09 AM

-SNIP-

Also we do have several manufacturing plants going up by us. One is going to be done in 2020 and is hiring 30k workers and is working with the state colleges to try and get workers. Around here it doesnt take much to get a basic job for around 20$ an hour entry level and vs 10$ at the restaurants. Even the gas stations are paying 12$ or 13$ for third shift. Does feel like a house of cards though.

Staying optimistic. Though I have been preparing for a down turn It would be great to get another 2  years out of this because that would be 2 out of college and done with 2 to go!

Fingers crossed!

That's great!  Thirty thousand workers in the Arctic Midwest.

.....And this is exactly why we need the electoral college.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on April 02, 2019, 09:55:37 AM

As much as I love discussing politics on this forum (hahaha), back to the main theme. I check our net worth monthly, so here's where we stand at the end of March/beginning of April.


We're at $3.6M*. In an unexpected twist, our bay area primary residence is down slightly in value, while our Oregon coast vacation home is up slightly. The to offset each other. We are not quite at $1.5M in 401k values (currently at $1.39M), but I'm hoping to be there in a few months.

(*edited, because I caught an error in my tracker. I was moving money between accounts, and magically double counted it. I wish. This is a more explainable gain of $38k month over month.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: honeyfill on April 02, 2019, 09:28:41 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on April 02, 2019, 09:55:37 AM

As much as I love discussing politics on this forum (hahaha), back to the main theme. I check our net worth monthly, so here's where we stand at the end of March/beginning of April.


We're at $3.6M*. In an unexpected twist, our bay area primary residence is down slightly in value, while our Oregon coast vacation home is up slightly. The to offset each other. We are not quite at $1.5M in 401k values (currently at $1.39M), but I'm hoping to be there in a few months.

(*edited, because I caught an error in my tracker. I was moving money between accounts, and magically double counted it. I wish. This is a more explainable gain of $38k month over month.)

Your situation  reminds me of my sister in Palo Alto. She is worth about 3.3M but 2M of that is in her paid off house.  She and her husband live quite comfortably on 4% of the 1.3M + about 60k in SS.
BUT whenever I tell her she could live a lot better by selling her condo and moving to a lcol, she just laughs and says she loves the weather in Palo Alto. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on April 02, 2019, 09:47:19 PM

Once you get comfortable in your home and you've established roots in a community it's hard to pick up and leave it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 02, 2019, 10:57:57 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on April 02, 2019, 09:28:41 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on April 02, 2019, 09:55:37 AM

As much as I love discussing politics on this forum (hahaha), back to the main theme. I check our net worth monthly, so here's where we stand at the end of March/beginning of April.


We're at $3.6M*. In an unexpected twist, our bay area primary residence is down slightly in value, while our Oregon coast vacation home is up slightly. The to offset each other. We are not quite at $1.5M in 401k values (currently at $1.39M), but I'm hoping to be there in a few months.

(*edited, because I caught an error in my tracker. I was moving money between accounts, and magically double counted it. I wish. This is a more explainable gain of $38k month over month.)

Your situation  reminds me of my sister in Palo Alto. She is worth about 3.3M but 2M of that is in her paid off house.  She and her husband live quite comfortably on 4% of the 1.3M + about 60k in SS.
BUT whenever I tell her she could live a lot better by selling her condo and moving to a lcol, she just laughs and says she loves the weather in Palo Alto.

In all fairness, Palo Alto is a gorgeous, wonderful town with lovely weather. I live near there and worked in PA for four years or so. Those years allowed me to really appreciate how awesome it is.
That said, I didn’t have kids back then. Many people move there for the schools but I’d be concerned about putting mine in that pressure cooker environment.
For retirement though? I’d stay put in her place as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 03, 2019, 02:53:46 AM

My cousin lives in Palo Alto. We were driving through the neighborhood of beautiful homes back to her house a few years ago, and my 8-year-old daughter said, “I want to live here!”

I replied, “Everyone wants to live here.”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 03, 2019, 03:44:22 AM

We own a home in an expensive suburb of Sydney and our FIRE plan requires selling and moving to somewhere cheaper. We are finding the prospect of that a little difficult as we really like being so close to everything in Sydney so can really relate to the Pablo Alto analogy.

But the option of not selling probably comes with 5 more years work (puke), amd as we have lived overseas for nearly 5 years now I am sure our old home won’t be the same if we movedCertainly our circle of friends will be different if we returned as people have moved on with their lives over the past 5 years.

On a positive note, our personal Top is In. Finally.

 It’s been a long time since last September when we previously topped. During that time a declining Sydney property market has been offsetting all of our savings, and we have had to wait for our stocks to reach new highs. It great to be forging forward nice more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 04:07:19 AM

I’ve seen it happen time and again with people who sell and leave California, only to realize a few years later that they miss certain thing about their former home. The problem is that when you do that you are often locked out of ever coming back due to real estate inflation in HCOL areas with respect to everywhere else. We have thrown around the idea of moving to a cheaper location, but that plan always includes renting our current house out and renting on the other end for a while. I don’t want to make any moves that would be difficult to reverse, just in case.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 03, 2019, 05:16:18 AM

Two good things happened to me this week. 1) including our paid for house which I figure in 10% under value estimates we are further past the 3M mark than when we tiptoed past it at the markets peak. 2) Yesterday was my 4 year fire'd anniversary. So so far this shit is working! lol

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 03, 2019, 11:15:13 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 03, 2019, 05:16:18 AM

Two good things happened to me this week. 1) including our paid for house which I figure in 10% under value estimates we are further past the 3M mark than when we tiptoed past it at the markets peak. 2) Yesterday was my 4 year fire'd anniversary. So so far this shit is working! lol

What would be the minimum someone could retire in the "Arctic Midwest?"  Seems like you may have a lot of margin.  Could you make it on $30,000 per year?  ($30,000 X 25 = $750,000)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 03, 2019, 12:11:14 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 04:07:19 AM

I’ve seen it happen time and again with people who sell and leave California, only to realize a few years later that they miss certain thing about their former home. The problem is that when you do that you are often locked out of ever coming back due to real estate inflation in HCOL areas with respect to everywhere else. We have thrown around the idea of moving to a cheaper location, but that plan always includes renting our current house out and renting on the other end for a while. I don’t want to make any moves that would be difficult to reverse, just in case.

Exactly.. My friends in the Philippines admitted to me they have basically locked themselves out of the USA by earning just $20k/year for the last 7 years. Plenty of money to live there, but awfully hard to save enough money to come back here in retirement.

Thankfully its a pretty good place to live.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 03, 2019, 04:48:12 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 04:07:19 AM

I’ve seen it happen time and again with people who sell and leave California, only to realize a few years later that they miss certain thing about their former home. The problem is that when you do that you are often locked out of ever coming back due to real estate inflation in HCOL areas with respect to everywhere else. We have thrown around the idea of moving to a cheaper location, but that plan always includes renting our current house out and renting on the other end for a while. I don’t want to make any moves that would be difficult to reverse, just in case.

I like that plan Ysette9.  If you rent your house out, you can always come back. Keep your foot in the door.  We also live in a HCOL area, and I'm from the beach area, so I've seen the one way move to a lower COL area many times over the years. 

Last year DH and I were in a tiny town near Munich, and an American couple about our age pulled in on bicycles with pack gear.  Now, that's not the norm.  We started chatting, with the usual "Where are you from? (oh, I know someone from there...)" and "What are you doing here?".  They were quite interesting.   They were on a 2 week bicycle ride.  They lived in France.  They had sold everything they owned in the Midwest,  to live their dream of retiring in France.  They'd been in France about 2 years, and the panache and excitement had worn off.  The cultural differences were exhausting to them.  They wanted to go home, and there was nothing to go back to. They sold their house and all belongings, thinking that the France dream was their forever choice.   They were very unhappy.   I imagine that by now, they've gone home and figured out something, but we caught them just about the time that the reality was staring them straight on.    I hope they found a way to be happy.   

Sometime I fantasize about buying a vacation home and moving to Europe,  I've even talked to real estate companies in 3 EU countries.   Just to suss it out, mind you.  For a 250K Euro buy in, you can get EU citizenship in Greece.  I could easily get that for one of my rentals and keep everything else I own/other rental income intact.  But then reality sinks in... I ALREADY live in paradise.  I ALREADY have a fantastically amazing life.  I ALREADY travel as much as I want to.  A home like that would complicate my life beyond imagination.   I don't need to be worrying about pipes or roof leaks or burglaries in a home that's half way around the world.  What am I thinking?   It's just such a fun fantasy, that's all...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 03, 2019, 05:35:39 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on April 03, 2019, 04:48:12 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 04:07:19 AM

I’ve seen it happen time and again with people who sell and leave California, only to realize a few years later that they miss certain thing about their former home. The problem is that when you do that you are often locked out of ever coming back due to real estate inflation in HCOL areas with respect to everywhere else. We have thrown around the idea of moving to a cheaper location, but that plan always includes renting our current house out and renting on the other end for a while. I don’t want to make any moves that would be difficult to reverse, just in case.

I like that plan Ysette9.  If you rent your house out, you can always come back. Keep your foot in the door.  We also live in a HCOL area, and I'm from the beach area, so I've seen the one way move to a lower COL area many times over the years. 

Last year DH and I were in a tiny town near Munich, and an American couple about our age pulled in on bicycles with pack gear.  Now, that's not the norm.  We started chatting, with the usual "Where are you from? (oh, I know someone from there...)" and "What are you doing here?".  They were quite interesting.   They were on a 2 week bicycle ride.  They lived in France.  They had sold everything they owned in the Midwest,  to live their dream of retiring in France.  They'd been in France about 2 years, and the panache and excitement had worn off.  The cultural differences were exhausting to them.  They wanted to go home, and there was nothing to go back to. They sold their house and all belongings, thinking that the France dream was their forever choice.   They were very unhappy.   I imagine that by now, they've gone home and figured out something, but we caught them just about the time that the reality was staring them straight on.    I hope they found a way to be happy.   

Sometime I fantasize about buying a vacation home and moving to Europe,  I've even talked to real estate companies in 3 EU countries.   Just to suss it out, mind you.  For a 250K Euro buy in, you can get EU citizenship in Greece.  I could easily get that for one of my rentals and keep everything else I own/other rental income intact.  But then reality sinks in... I ALREADY live in paradise.  I ALREADY have a fantastically amazing life.  I ALREADY travel as much as I want to.  A home like that would complicate my life beyond imagination.   I don't need to be worrying about pipes or roof leaks or burglaries in a home that's half way around the world.  What am I thinking?   It's just such a fun fantasy, that's all...

Yup I totally agree with you. I only have rental property because they are right outside my front door!

Having a vacation home even say 50 miles away would be a big no-no for me.. I guess you could pay a company to manage it for you but its still a bunch of hassle and risk.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 07:06:59 PM

Having lived in France for a year as an exchange student I can both attest to the really great parts of the country and culture and how tiring it can be over time to be constantly out of your element. It gets harder to adapt the older you get as well. That said, having backup EU citizenship and the ability to pick up and leave to someplace with universal healthcare is not to be taken lightly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 03, 2019, 07:11:26 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 07:06:59 PM

Having lived in France for a year as an exchange student I can both attest to the really great parts of the country and culture and how tiring it can be over time to be constantly out of your element. It gets harder to adapt the older you get as well. That said, having backup EU citizenship and the ability to pick up and leave to someplace with universal healthcare is not to be taken lightly.

If I could easily exchange my UK citizenship for EU I think I would right now..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on April 03, 2019, 07:22:22 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 07:06:59 PM

Having lived in France for a year as an exchange student I can both attest to the really great parts of the country and culture and how tiring it can be over time to be constantly out of your element. It gets harder to adapt the older you get as well. That said, having backup EU citizenship and the ability to pick up and leave to someplace with universal healthcare is not to be taken lightly.

My DW is an EU citizen (Germany) so we have access to both US and EU health care systems.  That said I have found it very difficult to get information on EU citizen relocation within the EU.  There is tons of info on US citizen moving to the EU but EU moving within EU information is much more sparse.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 07:22:53 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 03, 2019, 07:11:26 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 07:06:59 PM

Having lived in France for a year as an exchange student I can both attest to the really great parts of the country and culture and how tiring it can be over time to be constantly out of your element. It gets harder to adapt the older you get as well. That said, having backup EU citizenship and the ability to pick up and leave to someplace with universal healthcare is not to be taken lightly.

If I could easily exchange my UK citizenship for EU I think I would right now..:)

I’m not going to knock UK citizenship, especially as I am overwhelmingly grateful that I just got my own! As much as a bummer Brexit is, the NHS is a damn sight better than the US disaster.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 03, 2019, 08:20:38 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 07:22:53 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 03, 2019, 07:11:26 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 07:06:59 PM

Having lived in France for a year as an exchange student I can both attest to the really great parts of the country and culture and how tiring it can be over time to be constantly out of your element. It gets harder to adapt the older you get as well. That said, having backup EU citizenship and the ability to pick up and leave to someplace with universal healthcare is not to be taken lightly.

If I could easily exchange my UK citizenship for EU I think I would right now..:)

I’m not going to knock UK citizenship, especially as I am overwhelmingly grateful that I just got my own! As much as a bummer Brexit is, the NHS is a damn sight better than the US disaster.

Just about ANY country's HC is lot better than the US system.. As only the wealthy can afford it its becoming like a third world system!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 03, 2019, 08:29:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 03, 2019, 08:20:38 PM

Just about ANY country's HC is lot better than the US system.. As only the wealthy can afford it its becoming like a third world system!

But wait... we are the wealthy and we can hardly afford it.   People postpone retirement or keep a job solely for health care benefits or to have the money to pay their insurance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 04, 2019, 03:03:52 AM

Quote from: pecunia on April 03, 2019, 11:15:13 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 03, 2019, 05:16:18 AM

Two good things happened to me this week. 1) including our paid for house which I figure in 10% under value estimates we are further past the 3M mark than when we tiptoed past it at the markets peak. 2) Yesterday was my 4 year fire'd anniversary. So so far this shit is working! lol

What would be the minimum someone could retire in the "Arctic Midwest?"  Seems like you may have a lot of margin.  Could you make it on $30,000 per year?  ($30,000 X 25 = $750,000)

SE Wisconsin is where I live and there are quite a few people on MMM that live in WI. I am between Milw-Madison so I would say exactly where I live when its just the two of us 45-50k. But there are for sure areas you could do 30-35k.  I think when its all said and done if SS is still around in any form at 60k and SS we would be living a really good life. Most of our money is because of kids.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 04, 2019, 03:14:40 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on April 03, 2019, 08:29:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 03, 2019, 08:20:38 PM

Just about ANY country's HC is lot better than the US system.. As only the wealthy can afford it its becoming like a third world system!

But wait... we are the wealthy and we can hardly afford it.   People postpone retirement or keep a job solely for health care benefits or to have the money to pay their insurance.

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 03, 2019, 08:20:38 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 07:22:53 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 03, 2019, 07:11:26 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 07:06:59 PM

Having lived in France for a year as an exchange student I can both attest to the really great parts of the country and culture and how tiring it can be over time to be constantly out of your element. It gets harder to adapt the older you get as well. That said, having backup EU citizenship and the ability to pick up and leave to someplace with universal healthcare is not to be taken lightly.

If I could easily exchange my UK citizenship for EU I think I would right now..:)

I’m not going to knock UK citizenship, especially as I am overwhelmingly grateful that I just got my own! As much as a bummer Brexit is, the NHS is a damn sight better than the US disaster.

Just about ANY country's HC is lot better than the US system.. As only the wealthy can afford it its becoming like a third world system!

This is the part I just don't understand about this country. With all the HC systems around the world if you don't want to call it social medicine or whatever call it what you want but we need to get this right. I don't care what side of the aisle your on I feel both sides the people want this fixed. Its effecting everyone. The problem is like everything else in the country nobody wants the other side to get anything done right and to get something approved its done then half- assed. There has to be away to, to afford in a way that your just not paying for it with super high taxes. Even though it would be nice to never worry about it a lot of country s of late Like Finland and others seem to be struggling because of the cost. But geez there are so many models to look at and as the richest country in the world we should be able to get this done. But then you look at how many other programs are screwed up who knows.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 04, 2019, 04:13:11 AM

This is one of these issues where we can have our cake and eat it too. If you look at what rich countries spend as a % of GDP on healthcare, the US is an outlier in that we spend about twice what other countries to. That is for a broken system that leaves people bankrupt, doesn’t cover everyone, and doesn’t have better health outcomes. So if we could wave a magical wand and have a system like Canada or france or Finland or whatever, we could cover everyone better and save a bunch of money at the same time.

I agree that it is very frustrating that our politicians can’t seem to get this right. I think it isn’t quite correct to claim that both sides are digging in their heels and don’t want to allow the other side a win. Obama and his crowd tried long and hard to get the other side to talk and compromise and they refused. Trump and his crowd tried very hard to not include the other wide in their half-baked attempt at repeal-and-replace. I’d like to think that the Dems would come to the table and negotiate in good faith if a halfway reasonable proposal were put on the table; unfortunately we haven’t been able to test that yet.


***
For some reason the really great wiki article with tables of healthcare expenditures as a % of GDP are not easy to find on my phone right now. Here is a different source.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Health-expenditure%2C-total/%25-of-GDP#-amount

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on April 04, 2019, 06:55:01 AM

Politicians make talking points about crap.  "Do you want to be a socialist country like Cuba?  Of course not!  They're so horrible and have a dictator and are hated by everything.  Well, guess what?  They have free, state run health care.  Not just health insurance....health care.  Get sick, go see a doctor.  All done.  No EoB in the mail, no copay, no bill because you haven't reached your deductible, no out of network lab work.  Horrible, right?".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 04, 2019, 07:37:26 AM

The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.  Unfortunately with the US health care system you have to zigzag a gauntlet of hands reaching for dollars.   Your doctor and nurse are at the end of the hallway waiting to help you.  But, to get there the hallway is lined with thieves who rob you along the way.  They are called corporations.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 04, 2019, 07:40:44 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on April 03, 2019, 04:48:12 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 03, 2019, 04:07:19 AM

I’ve seen it happen time and again with people who sell and leave California, only to realize a few years later that they miss certain thing about their former home. The problem is that when you do that you are often locked out of ever coming back due to real estate inflation in HCOL areas with respect to everywhere else. We have thrown around the idea of moving to a cheaper location, but that plan always includes renting our current house out and renting on the other end for a while. I don’t want to make any moves that would be difficult to reverse, just in case.

I like that plan Ysette9.  If you rent your house out, you can always come back. Keep your foot in the door.  We also live in a HCOL area, and I'm from the beach area, so I've seen the one way move to a lower COL area many times over the years. 

Last year DH and I were in a tiny town near Munich, and an American couple about our age pulled in on bicycles with pack gear.  Now, that's not the norm.  We started chatting, with the usual "Where are you from? (oh, I know someone from there...)" and "What are you doing here?".  They were quite interesting.   They were on a 2 week bicycle ride.  They lived in France.  They had sold everything they owned in the Midwest,  to live their dream of retiring in France.  They'd been in France about 2 years, and the panache and excitement had worn off.  The cultural differences were exhausting to them.  They wanted to go home, and there was nothing to go back to. They sold their house and all belongings, thinking that the France dream was their forever choice.   They were very unhappy.   I imagine that by now, they've gone home and figured out something, but we caught them just about the time that the reality was staring them straight on.    I hope they found a way to be happy.   

Sometime I fantasize about buying a vacation home and moving to Europe,  I've even talked to real estate companies in 3 EU countries.   Just to suss it out, mind you.  For a 250K Euro buy in, you can get EU citizenship in Greece.  I could easily get that for one of my rentals and keep everything else I own/other rental income intact.  But then reality sinks in... I ALREADY live in paradise.  I ALREADY have a fantastically amazing life.  I ALREADY travel as much as I want to.  A home like that would complicate my life beyond imagination.   I don't need to be worrying about pipes or roof leaks or burglaries in a home that's half way around the world.  What am I thinking?   It's just such a fun fantasy, that's all...

250K to get Greek citizenship.   Hmmmm.   Weather is always nice there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 04, 2019, 08:01:33 AM

Yup, Greece is sunny all the time and the food is terrific.

https://qz.com/120839/for-just-e250000-you-can-buy-a-home-in-greece-and-become-an-eu-resident/
https://www.hiddengreece.net/
https://www.realtor.com/international/gr/
https://www.thenationalherald.com/165632/greece-sold-foreigners-1684-golden-visas-residency-citizenship/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on April 04, 2019, 08:31:07 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 02, 2019, 10:57:57 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on April 02, 2019, 09:28:41 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on April 02, 2019, 09:55:37 AM

As much as I love discussing politics on this forum (hahaha), back to the main theme. I check our net worth monthly, so here's where we stand at the end of March/beginning of April.


We're at $3.6M*. In an unexpected twist, our bay area primary residence is down slightly in value, while our Oregon coast vacation home is up slightly. The to offset each other. We are not quite at $1.5M in 401k values (currently at $1.39M), but I'm hoping to be there in a few months.

(*edited, because I caught an error in my tracker. I was moving money between accounts, and magically double counted it. I wish. This is a more explainable gain of $38k month over month.)

Your situation  reminds me of my sister in Palo Alto. She is worth about 3.3M but 2M of that is in her paid off house.  She and her husband live quite comfortably on 4% of the 1.3M + about 60k in SS.
BUT whenever I tell her she could live a lot better by selling her condo and moving to a lcol, she just laughs and says she loves the weather in Palo Alto.

In all fairness, Palo Alto is a gorgeous, wonderful town with lovely weather. I live near there and worked in PA for four years or so. Those years allowed me to really appreciate how awesome it is.
That said, I didn’t have kids back then. Many people move there for the schools but I’d be concerned about putting mine in that pressure cooker environment.
For retirement though? I’d stay put in her place as well.

Confirming that Palo Alto is great, and I would avoid personally sending my kid to school there due to pressure. Where we are at is bad enough, but a definite step down from PA. And, while the weather is great (not this year, for whatever reason), we are staying put until the kids are out of school, if at all possible. If a major situation cropped up that required us to move, we would. We've moved once with kids, and it was hard on them. I'm not saying they couldn't recover or move on, because kids are pretty resilient. But, I have one kid who is a bit of a loner & finally found a bit of a circle. If it can be avoided, we will stay in place for six more years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 04, 2019, 10:59:16 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 04, 2019, 04:13:11 AM

This is one of these issues where we can have our cake and eat it too. If you look at what rich countries spend as a % of GDP on healthcare, the US is an outlier in that we spend about twice what other countries to. That is for a broken system that leaves people bankrupt, doesn’t cover everyone, and doesn’t have better health outcomes. So if we could wave a magical wand and have a system like Canada or france or Finland or whatever, we could cover everyone better and save a bunch of money at the same time.

I agree that it is very frustrating that our politicians can’t seem to get this right. I think it isn’t quite correct to claim that both sides are digging in their heels and don’t want to allow the other side a win. Obama and his crowd tried long and hard to get the other side to talk and compromise and they refused. Trump and his crowd tried very hard to not include the other wide in their half-baked attempt at repeal-and-replace. I’d like to think that the Dems would come to the table and negotiate in good faith if a halfway reasonable proposal were put on the table; unfortunately we haven’t been able to test that yet.


***
For some reason the really great wiki article with tables of healthcare expenditures as a % of GDP are not easy to find on my phone right now. Here is a different source.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Health-expenditure%2C-total/%25-of-GDP#-amount

I think your argument ignores the real reason for high HC costs.. The HC sector is 12% of the entire stock market. The Stock Market grows on average 10% per year so your portfolio is growing at 1.2% per year due to the HC sector.

If you have a portfolio of $10M in stocks that means you will make $120,000 per year due to Healthcare.

in other words if you're really rich its in your best interests for HC to be as expensive as possible.

Who makes donations to politicians?.. Really rich people.. Follow the money.

Just cus I'm paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get me!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 04, 2019, 11:20:55 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 04, 2019, 10:59:16 AM

- SNIP -

I think your argument ignores the real reason for high HC costs.. The HC sector is 12% of the entire stock market. The Stock Market grows on average 10% per year so your portfolio is growing at 1.2% per year due to the HC sector.

If you have a portfolio of $10M in stocks that means you will make $120,000 per year due to Healthcare.

in other words if you're really rich its in your best interests for HC to be as expensive as possible.

Who makes donations to politicians?.. Really rich people.. Follow the money.

Just cus I'm paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get me!

Think a little bit.  That health care is like a parasite on the American economy.  Much of it is not producing additional goods and services.  It is sucking away resources that are produced by others.  Now, if that was changed so that this burden was reduced, all those resources would be freed up.  Where would that money go?  I'll bet some of it would be spent on "real" goods and services.  I'll bet the stock market would benefit.  That money would be available to invest in new needed infrastructure, in factories, in aid to education, etc.  Reducing that waste would probably be good for your index funds and not the other way around.

The title of this post could be changed to $4m to $8M.........and beyond!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 04, 2019, 12:02:09 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 04, 2019, 11:20:55 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 04, 2019, 10:59:16 AM

- SNIP -

I think your argument ignores the real reason for high HC costs.. The HC sector is 12% of the entire stock market. The Stock Market grows on average 10% per year so your portfolio is growing at 1.2% per year due to the HC sector.

If you have a portfolio of $10M in stocks that means you will make $120,000 per year due to Healthcare.

in other words if you're really rich its in your best interests for HC to be as expensive as possible.

Who makes donations to politicians?.. Really rich people.. Follow the money.

Just cus I'm paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get me!

Think a little bit.  That health care is like a parasite on the American economy.  Much of it is not producing additional goods and services.  It is sucking away resources that are produced by others.  Now, if that was changed so that this burden was reduced, all those resources would be freed up.  Where would that money go?  I'll bet some of it would be spent on "real" goods and services.  I'll bet the stock market would benefit.  That money would be available to invest in new needed infrastructure, in factories, in aid to education, etc.  Reducing that waste would probably be good for your index funds and not the other way around.

The title of this post could be changed to $4m to $8M.........and beyond!

Probably true except for one thing.. The powerful healthcare lobby.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on April 04, 2019, 12:05:17 PM

I may be a little biased, but I would say that in general directing productive capacity to health and healthcare is a good thing, and I think you could make an argument that the more developed a country becomes, the more it spends on healthcare, proportionally, and the less it spends on other things like food production, etc. I could envision a utopian future where at least human efforts become more and more restricted to direct services, like teaching and healthcare. With that said, I totally agree that in the US at least, there is probably too much spending on non-direct patient care, so I'm not actually disagreeing that there's a lot of fat/waste that could be cut, just that "overall" spending and comparison to other countries may not mean all that much.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 04, 2019, 03:16:56 PM

Quote from: PathtoFIRE on April 04, 2019, 12:05:17 PM

I may be a little biased, but I would say that in general directing productive capacity to health and healthcare is a good thing, and I think you could make an argument that the more developed a country becomes, the more it spends on healthcare, proportionally, and the less it spends on other things like food production, etc. I could envision a utopian future where at least human efforts become more and more restricted to direct services, like teaching and healthcare. With that said, I totally agree that in the US at least, there is probably too much spending on non-direct patient care, so I'm not actually disagreeing that there's a lot of fat/waste that could be cut, just that "overall" spending and comparison to other countries may not mean all that much.

Why doesn't it mean that much?  Some countries have what appears to be a similar standard of living and lower health care cost.

Clipped from the bowels of Google:

The data are presented by type of service, sources of funding, and type of sponsor. U.S. health care spending grew 3.9 percent in 2017, reaching $3.5 trillion or $10,739 per person. As a share of the nation's Gross Domestic Product, health spending accounted for 17.9 percent.

Break out the old charts and graphs - worth a look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita)

We spend lots more per person than other countries.  YOU spend more than you would in one of these other countries.  YOU could reach your financial goals more quickly if you had lower health care costs.  Wouldn't you like to be putting half of your health care premium in the stock market rather than seeing it go bye bye?

Here's a chart showing the percentage of GDP spent by different countries.  It's put together by the World Bank:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.GD.ZS (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.GD.ZS)

I think it means a lot of money that people could be spending on stuff they'd rather be spending the money on like maybe drugs, sex and rock'n' roll.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 04, 2019, 05:08:22 PM

I agree that comparing US healthcare spending to Uganda or Pakistan isn’t a meaningful metric. But the link I provided above lists an EU average (high 9% if I remember correctly). I’m sure the internet would offer up an OECD average as well if we asked politely. Those are two very fair comparison metrics. By the EU metric we are significantly overpaying for an inferior product.

We could free up that capital and spend it on infrastructure or hookers and booze or whatever.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 04, 2019, 10:34:58 PM

Well back to racing to $3M..

Today I hit a new "personal best". I'm guessing the house + pensions are somewhere around $1M but who really knows.

The investments are $2080k..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 04, 2019, 11:26:25 PM

Nicely done!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 05, 2019, 03:22:43 AM

Exflyboy well done!

I don't know about where you guys live but I do know a lot of Doctors and in different fields. They have really been bouncing around as there is beginning to be a shortage and I am told that less and less people are going to Med school because of the insurance and more are going into Bio medicine. Yesterday my youngest had a Doctors appointment mid day and the clinic was empty. We have found it harder and harder to not only find a pediatrician but to keep the same one because of this and the hospitals clinics have gone to this model seeing way more patients and getting less pay. This is why being a Medical assistant is such a growing position now and people are getting 6 figures and don't have the risk.  But yet In the last 10 years it seems like there is a new hospital on every corner despite how much I hear there hurting. The doctors that I have spoken to have said that the ACA creates so much extra paperwork and coding things write to get paid. But I agree its a base in place so fix it and make it work. But seemingly if we don't get healthcare fixed soon were going to have a big gap where there is a massive shortage of Doctors. Perhaps I am wrong but it just seems like thats going to become an issue. My doctor is 6 months out for regular check ups and stuff.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 05, 2019, 05:25:44 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 05, 2019, 03:22:43 AM

Exflyboy well done!

I don't know about where you guys live but I do know a lot of Doctors and in different fields. They have really been bouncing around as there is beginning to be a shortage and I am told that less and less people are going to Med school because of the insurance and more are going into Bio medicine. Yesterday my youngest had a Doctors appointment mid day and the clinic was empty. We have found it harder and harder to not only find a pediatrician but to keep the same one because of this and the hospitals clinics have gone to this model seeing way more patients and getting less pay. This is why being a Medical assistant is such a growing position now and people are getting 6 figures and don't have the risk.  But yet In the last 10 years it seems like there is a new hospital on every corner despite how much I hear there hurting. The doctors that I have spoken to have said that the ACA creates so much extra paperwork and coding things write to get paid. But I agree its a base in place so fix it and make it work. But seemingly if we don't get healthcare fixed soon were going to have a big gap where there is a massive shortage of Doctors. Perhaps I am wrong but it just seems like thats going to become an issue. My doctor is 6 months out for regular check ups and stuff.

Seems like these doctors and medical schools have a pretty good fix on the old supply and demand thing.  There is such a thing as a real shortage and there is such a thing as an artificially generated shortage.   Hmmmmm - Which one are we dealing with here?  There are a lot of smart young people out there who want to become doctors.  There seems to be a lot of sick people out there who need doctors.  That good pay is quite the incentive.  Now wait a minute - If there were more doctors, the pay would be less.  Seems like doctors and medical schools have a pretty good fix on the old supply and demand thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 05, 2019, 08:02:53 AM

Just completed the full cycle from the Fall 2018 drop according to the Quicken download today.

Total Net Worth:

Mid-Sept 2018 (my highest net worth)- $3.8M
Christmas Day 2018 - $3.39M
Today - $3.8M

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 05, 2019, 12:24:16 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 05, 2019, 08:02:53 AM

Just completed the full cycle from the Fall 2018 drop according to the Quicken download today.

Total Net Worth:

Mid-Sept 2018 (my highest net worth)- $3.8M
Christmas Day 2018 - $3.39M
Today - $3.8M

Awesome.. Seems like a lot of us are in this boat. I was telling some junior mustacians in January that I had "lost" $300k in the December pullback.. And that I was very happy about it.. and as they are still buying they should be even more happy than I was..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 05, 2019, 12:49:05 PM

Things are going well.

Dow all time high from this snippet:

On January 26, 2018, the Dow reached an all-time high of 26,616.71 and eclipsed it on September 20th at 26,656.98 before a precipitous correction leading to the worst December for U.S. equities in living memory before bouncing back to Monday’s 25,914.10 close.

From:

https://www.ccn.com/the-dow-is-about-to-hit-its-next-all-time-high-and-then-collapse (https://www.ccn.com/the-dow-is-about-to-hit-its-next-all-time-high-and-then-collapse)

As of now on Friday afternoon - 26,398.39

If I had to do it over again, I'd make a whole new set of mistakes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 05, 2019, 01:03:23 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 05, 2019, 12:24:16 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 05, 2019, 08:02:53 AM

Just completed the full cycle from the Fall 2018 drop according to the Quicken download today.

Total Net Worth:

Mid-Sept 2018 (my highest net worth)- $3.8M
Christmas Day 2018 - $3.39M
Today - $3.8M

Awesome.. Seems like a lot of us are in this boat. I was telling some junior mustacians in January that I had "lost" $300k in the December pullback.. And that I was very happy about it.. and as they are still buying they should be even more happy than I was..:)

Ha, I'm not exactly 'happy' about it as I'm past the stage I'll be putting much more back in...but in the end it was an 11% move in my net worth, and I know very well if I 'notice' anything less than 15% and 'care' about anything less than 30% I should either not be in equities or not FIRE....

Reminds me of the folks that always said they were happy when the market tanked and I would bring up that I should be ecstatic regarding my investment in Enron then as now I can really get in low....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: honeyfill on April 05, 2019, 02:07:24 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 05, 2019, 12:24:16 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 05, 2019, 08:02:53 AM

Just completed the full cycle from the Fall 2018 drop according to the Quicken download today.

Total Net Worth:

Mid-Sept 2018 (my highest net worth)- $3.8M
Christmas Day 2018 - $3.39M
Today - $3.8M

Awesome.. Seems like a lot of us are in this boat. I was telling some junior mustacians in January that I had "lost" $300k in the December pullback.. And that I was very happy about it.. and as they are still buying they should be even more happy than I was..:)

Exflyboy, Much Fishing to Do,
Great news about getting back to your all time highs.  That' s the way to hang in there. 
I am trying hard to catch up to you.  I moved a few thousand from cash to stocks in December but mostly stood pat.  The only reason I'm still down a little is because  I have spent so much since September , helping out my daughter and pre paying for a lot of May-June Europe trip.  I'm surprised it has recovered so quickly but I was also surprised it dropped so fast in the fall. I guess it all evens out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 05, 2019, 02:36:51 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on April 05, 2019, 02:07:24 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 05, 2019, 12:24:16 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 05, 2019, 08:02:53 AM

Just completed the full cycle from the Fall 2018 drop according to the Quicken download today.

Total Net Worth:

Mid-Sept 2018 (my highest net worth)- $3.8M
Christmas Day 2018 - $3.39M
Today - $3.8M

Awesome.. Seems like a lot of us are in this boat. I was telling some junior mustacians in January that I had "lost" $300k in the December pullback.. And that I was very happy about it.. and as they are still buying they should be even more happy than I was..:)

Exflyboy, Much Fishing to Do,
Great news about getting back to your all time highs.  That' s the way to hang in there. 
I am trying hard to catch up to you.  I moved a few thousand from cash to stocks in December but mostly stood pat.  The only reason I'm still down a little is because  I have spent so much since September , helping out my daughter and pre paying for a lot of May-June Europe trip.  I'm surprised it has recovered so quickly but I was also surprised it dropped so fast in the fall. I guess it all evens out.

Wouldn;t worry about it....theres a lot of crazy factors...I realized I was actually quite a bit further down at one point because of how worldly diversified I am in Jan, but the international has made a littel bit of a comeback in the past momth...its the fine line of being aware of these little things but not being concerned by them....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 05, 2019, 02:54:53 PM

- KER SNIP -

...its the fine line of being aware of these little things but not being concerned by them....
[/quote]

You guys are long beyond the point of worry.  You'll never have to dig in a dumpster or even shop at Aldi's.  Mr. Money Mustache has promulgated the idea of living on $25,000 / year. 

Let's see 3.8 milion / $25,000 = 152 years

I will never be in your league, but I still feel good.  I have the rising sun, fresh air in my nose and it's Spring.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 05, 2019, 04:18:52 PM

Yes but when can I do all my international travel in Business class and eat caviar every day?

$3M is just NOT enough..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 05, 2019, 05:46:41 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 05, 2019, 04:18:52 PM

Yes but when can I do all my international travel in Business class and eat caviar every day?

$3M is just NOT enough..;)

Somehow, the idea of eating fish eggs is less appealing than cheap cans of tuna fish.  Even at 25,000, you will have the time to catch your own fresh fish.  I can do international travel in an old pickup truck, hav more foot room and stop whenever I need to. 

I'll see.  At the end of this year I hope to retire and then I'll see if I needed to work until caviar or will suffer from the common complaint that retirement should have been sooner.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 06, 2019, 06:03:10 AM

Being an Australian, business class flights to Europe or the US are very expensive. I would have to work an extra year so that my wife and I could fly to Europe once a year in business class for the rest of our lives as opposed to economy (my FIRE budget allows for significant annual international travel)

I asked a couple of friends whether they would work an extra year before retirement if it meant they could fly business class for the rest of their lives. It was about 50/50 between those who would/ wouldn’t work the extra year.

I have decided it’s not worth working an extra year, but I do hope that over time my net worth will continue to grow to the point where I can escape economy class.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 06, 2019, 06:18:04 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 05, 2019, 04:18:52 PM

Yes but when can I do all my international travel in Business class and eat caviar every day?

$3M is just NOT enough..;)

Ha, $3M is much much more than 'enough' for my family of 5...  But more (that I get from good investing and don't have to work for) just seems better than less somehow...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 06, 2019, 06:48:45 AM

We're just at 2.1MM investments.   Yep, nice recovery from the Fall dip.  300K or more actually.   Still somewhat shooting for 2.5 MM investments.  Don't have to quite have that much to FIRE, since I hope to live on 60K. The 60K limit is due to getting the ACA subsidy. We'll just need to pay off the Florida home mortgage of 180K, by selling the Louisiana property.  That would pay the debt off and likely add some cash towards the 2.5MM.  The grown kids are interested in the Louisiana property, but I'd rather sell to someone else.   It's waterfront, but it floods and they'd be better off without that headache.  I can see myself coming back and fixing shit on this same old house if the kids buy it.   Screw that.  I've been fixing crap on that house since 1992.  The Florida house is on a high ass hill.  It's five miles to a fresh water boat launch and fifteen miles from the Gulf of Mexico.   That's close enough to the water now.   I really like my kayak and bicycle more than motorized boats now.  Low maintenance fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 06, 2019, 10:12:24 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on April 06, 2019, 06:03:10 AM

Being an Australian, business class flights to Europe or the US are very expensive. I would have to work an extra year so that my wife and I could fly to Europe once a year in business class for the rest of our lives as opposed to economy (my FIRE budget allows for significant annual international travel)

I asked a couple of friends whether they would work an extra year before retirement if it meant they could fly business class for the rest of their lives. It was about 50/50 between those who would/ wouldn’t work the extra year.

I have decided it’s not worth working an extra year, but I do hope that over time my net worth will continue to grow to the point where I can escape economy class.

The answer is retire sooner and use your new free time to travel hack so you can fly business class. Boom!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 06, 2019, 12:41:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 06, 2019, 06:48:45 AM

We're just at 2.1MM investments.   Yep, nice recovery from the Fall dip.  300K or more actually.   Still somewhat shooting for 2.5 MM investments.  Don't have to quite have that much to FIRE, since I hope to live on 60K. The 60K limit is due to getting the ACA subsidy. We'll just need to pay off the Florida home mortgage of 180K, by selling the Louisiana property.  That would pay the debt off and likely add some cash towards the 2.5MM.  The grown kids are interested in the Louisiana property, but I'd rather sell to someone else.   It's waterfront, but it floods and they'd be better off without that headache.  I can see myself coming back and fixing shit on this same old house if the kids buy it.   Screw that.  I've been fixing crap on that house since 1992.  The Florida house is on a high ass hill.  It's five miles to a fresh water boat launch and fifteen miles from the Gulf of Mexico.   That's close enough to the water now.   I really like my kayak and bicycle more than motorized boats now.  Low maintenance fun.

@Bateaux .. Captain Obvious here...

You and I are very close fire budget wise but I just wanted to throw out the fact that spending $60k from investments is not the same as making an "income" of $60k for ACA purposes.

If you are spending from pretax accounts (401k's etc) then yes $1 drawn from your 401k = $1 of income.

For after tax investments however, Your MAGI is based on the capital gain of the investments you sell.

So say your $60k is all from selling after tax investments and the shares you bought in VTSAX at $20 are now sold for $60 each.

You sell 1000 (60*1000) to make your $60k spend. Well your gain is only $40 per share.. so your total cap gain is only $40k and that will be your MAGI as far as the ACA goes.

Of course this is simplified because you have to count the dividends as part of your MAGI as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 06, 2019, 01:13:40 PM

Interesting to see how closely everyone tracks their net-worth.  I was pretty obsessive about it heading up to that first million.  It was like climbing Mt. Everest, treacherous and very much learning while trying not to get killed.  Fortunately, the experiences and a good market made the second million a breeze.  Nowadays, my philosophy is that I'll have more that enough even if the markets drop 50%.  Heck, if a person is smart and financially experienced enough to reach 2+ million in investments, they should be able to avoid scams and unforced errors.  And as a Mustachian, our family blends in nicely as middle class so no-one is coming by with their hands out.  The kids have no clue we are 'rich'.  My wife and I are discreet when we are charitable and spread it out with lots of smaller amounts as opposed to one big amount.

Having money has given me the freedom to not worry about the details anymore.  When I read that people were at all time highs, I took a peek at one of my larger accounts and it's up over 100k since I last checked.  Crazy!  $100k I'm not wanting for and for doing nothing!  That's enough info for me.  The FI life is good.

When I do get to the spending / draw-down part of our lives, I'll be moderate whether I have 2 million or 20 million.  I'm just not a mansion and sports car kind of guy, but also quite happy to not need to be as hardcore about saving a buck.  Most of all, I don't want to be wasteful, fill landfills, and produce added CO2 out of laziness / inefficiency.  And I want to pass along good values to my children.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 06, 2019, 01:35:45 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 06, 2019, 12:41:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 06, 2019, 06:48:45 AM

We're just at 2.1MM investments.   Yep, nice recovery from the Fall dip.  300K or more actually.   Still somewhat shooting for 2.5 MM investments.  Don't have to quite have that much to FIRE, since I hope to live on 60K. The 60K limit is due to getting the ACA subsidy. We'll just need to pay off the Florida home mortgage of 180K, by selling the Louisiana property.  That would pay the debt off and likely add some cash towards the 2.5MM.  The grown kids are interested in the Louisiana property, but I'd rather sell to someone else.   It's waterfront, but it floods and they'd be better off without that headache.  I can see myself coming back and fixing shit on this same old house if the kids buy it.   Screw that.  I've been fixing crap on that house since 1992.  The Florida house is on a high ass hill.  It's five miles to a fresh water boat launch and fifteen miles from the Gulf of Mexico.   That's close enough to the water now.   I really like my kayak and bicycle more than motorized boats now.  Low maintenance fun.

@Bateaux .. Captain Obvious here...

You and I are very close fire budget wise but I just wanted to throw out the fact that spending $60k from investments is not the same as making an "income" of $60k for ACA purposes.

If you are spending from pretax accounts (401k's etc) then yes $1 drawn from your 401k = $1 of income.

For after tax investments however, Your MAGI is based on the capital gain of the investments you sell.

So say your $60k is all from selling after tax investments and the shares you bought in VTSAX at $20 are now sold for $60 each.

You sell 1000 (60*1000) to make your $60k spend. Well your gain is only $40 per share.. so your total cap gain is only $40k and that will be your MAGI as far as the ACA goes.

Of course this is simplified because you have to count the dividends as part of your MAGI as well.

In our case, our stash is about 1.4 million 401K.  (I know, such a horrid problem to have)  We do have almost 250K in Roth IRA accounts.   We could draw our personal investment and leave the gains.  I have an employer funded cash balance pension that's approaching 400k.  We've got about 70K in cash and taxable accounts.   Paid off real estate we could sell, about 250K.  We've got debt of 180K, on the Florida house and no other debts.   Looking at all that we could quit work today most likely.  It just makes a little more sense to finish out 2020.  I think our youngest just got a job that will pay over 100k annually.  The oldest, we're still working on him to get a higher paying job.   He's a cancer survivor and will be 26 and using the ACA this June.    I don't think the 2020 election will go to the ACA killers.  Still, while I'm making good money, I just have to be a safety net till 2020.  My post 2020, 60k with no debt spending should be quite lavish. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 06, 2019, 01:47:50 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 06, 2019, 01:13:40 PM

Interesting to see how closely everyone tracks their net-worth.  I was pretty obsessive about it heading up to that first million.  It was like climbing Mt. Everest, treacherous and very much learning while trying not to get killed.  Fortunately, the experiences and a good market made the second million a breeze.  Nowadays, my philosophy is that I'll have more that enough even if the markets drop 50%.  Heck, if a person is smart and financially experienced enough to reach 2+ million in investments, they should be able to avoid scams and unforced errors.  And as a Mustachian, our family blends in nicely as middle class so no-one is coming by with their hands out.  The kids have no clue we are 'rich'.  My wife and I are discreet when we are charitable and spread it out with lots of smaller amounts as opposed to one big amount.

Having money has given me the freedom to not worry about the details anymore.  When I read that people were at all time highs, I took a peek at one of my larger accounts and it's up over 100k since I last checked.  Crazy!  $100k I'm not wanting for and for doing nothing!  That's enough info for me.  The FI life is good.

When I do get to the spending / draw-down part of our lives, I'll be moderate whether I have 2 million or 20 million.  I'm just not a mansion and sports car kind of guy, but also quite happy to not need to be as hardcore about saving a buck.  Most of all, I don't want to be wasteful, fill landfills, and produce added CO2 out of laziness / inefficiency.  And I want to pass along good values to my children.

Nothing to add to that but, Hell Yeah!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 06, 2019, 01:50:27 PM

@Bateaux  Oh yeah.. $60k (especially if your houses are paid off) will be plenty for 2 people if you live in a MCOL area.

We spent $50k last year and had a couple of lavish (by our standards) vacations.

Sounds like You're in a great place!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 06, 2019, 02:01:09 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 06, 2019, 01:47:50 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 06, 2019, 01:13:40 PM

Interesting to see how closely everyone tracks their net-worth.  I was pretty obsessive about it heading up to that first million.  It was like climbing Mt. Everest, treacherous and very much learning while trying not to get killed.  Fortunately, the experiences and a good market made the second million a breeze.  Nowadays, my philosophy is that I'll have more that enough even if the markets drop 50%.  Heck, if a person is smart and financially experienced enough to reach 2+ million in investments, they should be able to avoid scams and unforced errors.  And as a Mustachian, our family blends in nicely as middle class so no-one is coming by with their hands out.  The kids have no clue we are 'rich'.  My wife and I are discreet when we are charitable and spread it out with lots of smaller amounts as opposed to one big amount.

Having money has given me the freedom to not worry about the details anymore.  When I read that people were at all time highs, I took a peek at one of my larger accounts and it's up over 100k since I last checked.  Crazy!  $100k I'm not wanting for and for doing nothing!  That's enough info for me.  The FI life is good.

When I do get to the spending / draw-down part of our lives, I'll be moderate whether I have 2 million or 20 million.  I'm just not a mansion and sports car kind of guy, but also quite happy to not need to be as hardcore about saving a buck.  Most of all, I don't want to be wasteful, fill landfills, and produce added CO2 out of laziness / inefficiency.  And I want to pass along good values to my children.

Nothing to add to that but, Hell Yeah!

Amen Brother!..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 06, 2019, 09:00:22 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 06, 2019, 01:13:40 PM

Interesting to see how closely everyone tracks their net-worth.  I was pretty obsessive about it heading up to that first million.  It was like climbing Mt. Everest, treacherous and very much learning while trying not to get killed. 

Our NW is mostly in real estate- about 90%, so Mint gives me a quick synopsis of what Zillow claims our houses to be worth.   Just for kicks, I went through and added our small IRA and trade account balances, as well as the 2 seller carry loans that pay us monthly and are slowly paying down the principal.  Zillow is notoriously high in property valuations, and doesn't take into account the amount that you'd actually pocket if you sold minus the transaction costs.  But, since it does track comparative sales in the neighborhood, it's very handy for close approximations of value at a glance, and Mint keeps track of all of it.  I do find the Mint accounting to be handy, since you can add, delete or modify the numbers whenever there is a change worth recording.   I check in and make modifications about every 15-20K worth of change in NW, which is usually due to paying down mortgages.   I've paid off at least 7 or 8 mortgages in the past 5 years, so I get to see the little red graph (debts) slowly shrinking and the green one (assets) slowly growing.  The red graph is getting pretty small.  Do any of you use Mint for tracking NW?

But, funny, I'm more obsessive about the small gains in my trade accounts.  Very obsessive!  I constantly check our accounts.  Now that the mortgages are basically paid off (one small loan remaining on our personal residence only)  I'm about to start dumping our excess cash into the stock market, and I worry that this is not a good time to be adding finite resources to an inflated market.  Obviously we were more comfortable investing in real estate, so I'm not a seasoned stock investor by any means.   Hiding it under the mattress is not an option, so Index funds here we come!   It seems to have worked for all of you, and I hope for us it's not too little, too late.    The CDs pay so poorly, but maybe a good split for us would be 50/50.    I think I'll phone Fidelity and get one of their advisors to give me some guidance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on April 07, 2019, 10:18:45 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on April 06, 2019, 09:00:22 PM

.....snip.....
Now that the mortgages are basically paid off (one small loan remaining on our personal residence only)  I'm about to start dumping our excess cash into the stock market, and I worry that this is not a good time to be adding finite resources to an inflated market.  Obviously we were more comfortable investing in real estate, so I'm not a seasoned stock investor by any means.   Hiding it under the mattress is not an option, so Index funds here we come!   It seems to have worked for all of you, and I hope for us it's not too little, too late.    The CDs pay so poorly, but maybe a good split for us would be 50/50.    I think I'll phone Fidelity and get one of their advisors to give me some guidance.

I'd ask questions and read some more here before you a$k "prof$$ional$". 

The 4% rule sticky thread and the jcollins stock series are good starting points.

If you're 50/50, than VTSAX/total bond index may be all you need.

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 07, 2019, 11:15:17 AM

I just got back from a business trip to China. There is a world of difference between flying steerage and flying business. I’d be tempted to work another year to never have to suffer through steerage again. To actually have food and drink when hungry and thirsty, to not be constantly uncomfortable, to be able to get up to pee whenever I wish. (I remember one cross-country business trip at my old company where I had to justify the “upgrade” to an aisle seat while in my third trimester of pregnancy.) Most importantly for those international trips, the ability to SLEEP on the plane. Amazing!

I have got to find some time to look I to this travel hacking thing do we can figure out business class for our personal trips.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 07, 2019, 12:02:14 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 07, 2019, 11:15:17 AM

I just got back from a business trip to China. There is a world of difference between flying steerage and flying business. I’d be tempted to work another year to never have to suffer through steerage again. To actually have food and drink when hungry and thirsty, to not be constantly uncomfortable, to be able to get up to pee whenever I wish. (I remember one cross-country business trip at my old company where I had to justify the “upgrade” to an aisle seat while in my third trimester of pregnancy.) Most importantly for those international trips, the ability to SLEEP on the plane. Amazing!

I have got to find some time to look I to this travel hacking thing do we can figure out business class for our personal trips.

I hear you, but knowing myself, even if I had that extra money I’d still have trouble justifying paying >$10K USD for DW and I to fly return to Europe. It’s the equivalent of an extra month or more staying in nice places whilst on holiday.

Better off retiring the year early and working on travel hacking I’d say, even though Travel hacking is not so easy in Australia compared to the US as the banks don’t offer the same incentives on their credit cards.

Of course, if my wealth keeps growing post FIRE and I end up filthy rich then business class flights is probably something I could throw money at to get rid of it 😜

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 07, 2019, 03:31:47 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on April 07, 2019, 10:18:45 AM

I'd ask questions and read some more here before you a$k "prof$$ional$". 

The 4% rule sticky thread and the jcollins stock series are good starting points.

If you're 50/50, than VTSAX/total bond index may be all you need.

I am reading till my eyes go wonky!  Ha ha.  VTSAX comes up a lot.  I've got Fidelity accounts, and thought that the Fidelity equivalent would be a good one.   

As to those of you enjoying the front of the plane... @ysette9 and @itchyfeet -- travel hacking is definitely a more Mustachian path than paying your hard earned cash.  It's a natural extension of being frugal whilst actually enjoying luxury. Is that an oxymoron?  I found MMM when he was interviewed by Million Mile Secrets, back in the day when it was owned, built and cherished by a nice travel hacking couple, Darius and Emily.  Bankrate owns the site now.  Many of the creative ways to amass scads of points have disappeared, but there's still plenty of opportunity for anyone with good money skills to get enough miles and points with minimal hassle and cost, for one or two very nice trips a year.

  We jumped into the credit card game and our extensive travel (many international trips yearly, about 100-120 days a year) is nearly all in Business class thanks to "the miles and points lifestyle."  At least if I'm on the flight we're in front.  DH is more into quantity, going to Europe about every 45 days, and I'm into quality, with a trip every couple of months in the front or not at all.   Pods are awesome!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 07, 2019, 06:57:35 PM

I should get into the manufacturing airmile game.

My big fear is that somehow the loophole of buying gift cards will close and I'll be stuck with a $4000 Walmart gift card.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 08, 2019, 04:46:13 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 07, 2019, 06:57:35 PM

I should get into the manufacturing airmile game.

My big fear is that somehow the loophole of buying gift cards will close and I'll be stuck with a $4000 Walmart gift card.

Lots of good stuff at Walmart.  The quality of Chinese goods is greatly improving.  Two billion souls working to create innovative value products for you will enhance that early retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 08, 2019, 07:23:47 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 07, 2019, 06:57:35 PM

I should get into the manufacturing airmile game.

My big fear is that somehow the loophole of buying gift cards will close and I'll be stuck with a $4000 Walmart gift card.

There's no way I could spend $4k at Wallyworld. If this happened to me I'd donate them to a charity.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 08, 2019, 09:30:39 AM

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 08, 2019, 03:18:50 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 07, 2019, 06:57:35 PM

I should get into the manufacturing airmile game.

My big fear is that somehow the loophole of buying gift cards will close and I'll be stuck with a $4000 Walmart gift card.

There are some pretty good deals right now with smaller amounts you need to spend. Go to Doctorofcredit.com and just pick one. There are some as low as 2k spend over 3 months. Very rarely do I find I need to buy a GC and I churn at least a card a month .

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 08, 2019, 08:41:36 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 08, 2019, 09:30:39 AM

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

Once you get past the disabled greeter with er Oxygen tank, the place is fine.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 08, 2019, 11:18:32 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 08, 2019, 09:30:39 AM

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

Yes, this.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 08, 2019, 11:23:15 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 08, 2019, 08:41:36 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 08, 2019, 09:30:39 AM

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

Once you get past the disabled greeter with er Oxygen tank, the place is fine.

And the patrons with ankle bracelets..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 09, 2019, 04:00:09 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 08, 2019, 11:23:15 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 08, 2019, 08:41:36 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 08, 2019, 09:30:39 AM

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

Once you get past the disabled greeter with er Oxygen tank, the place is fine.

And the patrons with ankle bracelets..:)

I find Second hand stores like Goodwill nicer inside. Plus they have more than one cashier.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 09, 2019, 05:07:08 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 08, 2019, 09:30:39 AM

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

I'm hitting up lots of local stores and restaurants on behalf of my beloved library's upcoming fund raiser, therefore I'm darkening far more retail doors than I do in real life. I was waiting for a manager at a grocery store I use only in a minor way. I noticed they have a dry ice freezer. This gave me an unexpected thrill, because up to that moment, the only place I knew that sold dry ice was a Wally World two towns over. Having knowledge of this is giving me a weird sort of giddiness. How often do I buy dry ice? Never. But it's still a relief knowing that if I did have need for it, I wouldn't have to go to Wally's. Oddly soothing discovery.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 09, 2019, 05:57:14 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 09, 2019, 05:07:08 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 08, 2019, 09:30:39 AM

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

I'm hitting up lots of local stores and restaurants on behalf of my beloved library's upcoming fund raiser, therefore I'm darkening far more retail doors than I do in real life. I was waiting for a manager at a grocery store I use only in a minor way. I noticed they have a dry ice freezer. This gave me an unexpected thrill, because up to that moment, the only place I knew that sold dry ice was a Wally World two towns over. Having knowledge of this is giving me a weird sort of giddiness. How often do I buy dry ice? Never. But it's still a relief knowing that if I did have need for it, I wouldn't have to go to Wally's. Oddly soothing discovery.

Its amazing how many meme's I see , articles about all there labor issues, dumpy stores etc.. but yet the store is the only one seemingly that is not being affected by Amazon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 09, 2019, 06:40:48 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 09, 2019, 05:57:14 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 09, 2019, 05:07:08 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 08, 2019, 09:30:39 AM

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

I'm hitting up lots of local stores and restaurants on behalf of my beloved library's upcoming fund raiser, therefore I'm darkening far more retail doors than I do in real life. I was waiting for a manager at a grocery store I use only in a minor way. I noticed they have a dry ice freezer. This gave me an unexpected thrill, because up to that moment, the only place I knew that sold dry ice was a Wally World two towns over. Having knowledge of this is giving me a weird sort of giddiness. How often do I buy dry ice? Never. But it's still a relief knowing that if I did have need for it, I wouldn't have to go to Wally's. Oddly soothing discovery.

Its amazing how many meme's I see , articles about all there labor issues, dumpy stores etc.. but yet the store is the only one seemingly that is not being affected by Amazon.

Everyone feels the impact of Amazon, whether they admit it or not.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 09, 2019, 07:24:15 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 09, 2019, 06:40:48 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 09, 2019, 05:57:14 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 09, 2019, 05:07:08 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 08, 2019, 09:30:39 AM

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

I'm hitting up lots of local stores and restaurants on behalf of my beloved library's upcoming fund raiser, therefore I'm darkening far more retail doors than I do in real life. I was waiting for a manager at a grocery store I use only in a minor way. I noticed they have a dry ice freezer. This gave me an unexpected thrill, because up to that moment, the only place I knew that sold dry ice was a Wally World two towns over. Having knowledge of this is giving me a weird sort of giddiness. How often do I buy dry ice? Never. But it's still a relief knowing that if I did have need for it, I wouldn't have to go to Wally's. Oddly soothing discovery.

Its amazing how many meme's I see , articles about all there labor issues, dumpy stores etc.. but yet the store is the only one seemingly that is not being affected by Amazon.

Everyone feels the impact of Amazon, whether they admit it or not.

Yea good point! I meant more adapting ,surviving it the best. They were the first of the big boys that I remember to really get into the e commerce online sales seriously when they bought Jet back in 2016 for the infrastructure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 10, 2019, 03:04:30 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 09, 2019, 07:24:15 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 09, 2019, 06:40:48 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 09, 2019, 05:57:14 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 09, 2019, 05:07:08 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 08, 2019, 09:30:39 AM

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

I'm hitting up lots of local stores and restaurants on behalf of my beloved library's upcoming fund raiser, therefore I'm darkening far more retail doors than I do in real life. I was waiting for a manager at a grocery store I use only in a minor way. I noticed they have a dry ice freezer. This gave me an unexpected thrill, because up to that moment, the only place I knew that sold dry ice was a Wally World two towns over. Having knowledge of this is giving me a weird sort of giddiness. How often do I buy dry ice? Never. But it's still a relief knowing that if I did have need for it, I wouldn't have to go to Wally's. Oddly soothing discovery.

Its amazing how many meme's I see , articles about all there labor issues, dumpy stores etc.. but yet the store is the only one seemingly that is not being affected by Amazon.

Everyone feels the impact of Amazon, whether they admit it or not.

Yea good point! I meant more adapting ,surviving it the best. They were the first of the big boys that I remember to really get into the e commerce online sales seriously when they bought Jet back in 2016 for the infrastructure.

Laughed when I saw this...so true-

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 10, 2019, 01:58:29 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 05, 2019, 04:18:52 PM

Yes but when can I do all my international travel in Business class and eat caviar every day?

$3M is just NOT enough..;)

I don't understand why the same thing wouldn't be said about $2M? Or $1M? or $500K?

Sorry, trying to increase my net worth (as more seems better than less) and I'm not exactly sure at what dollar amount that goes from a good thing to a bad thing.  I'm not gonna be so obnoxious as to get into DAFs I've created, etc.  My only defense is that my business took off so fast I couldnt quit earlier (I went form $1M to $3m in the last 3 years).  I wanted to make sure the employees had a job elsewhere or I swear I would have stopped earning income sooner.  I promise.  I'm sorry.  If it helps I hate cavier and I've never flown anything other than coach and I am admittedly worried about the price of living today for most and left 529s worth a lot to each  of my 3 kids.  I'm sorry.  I swear I'll make a tax/investing/healthcare mistake in the next few years and be poor again agian if possible, lord knows its easy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 11, 2019, 12:26:09 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 10, 2019, 01:58:29 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 05, 2019, 04:18:52 PM

Yes but when can I do all my international travel in Business class and eat caviar every day?

$3M is just NOT enough..;)

I don't understand why the same thing wouldn't be said about $2M? Or $1M? or $500K?

Sorry, trying to increase my net worth (as more seems better than less) and I'm not exactly sure at what dollar amount that goes from a good thing to a bad thing.  I'm not gonna be so obnoxious as to get into DAFs I've created, etc.  My only defense is that my business took off so fast I couldnt quit earlier (I went form $1M to $3m in the last 3 years).  I wanted to make sure the employees had a job elsewhere or I swear I would have stopped earning income sooner.  I promise.  I'm sorry.  If it helps I hate cavier and I've never flown anything other than coach and I am admittedly worried about the price of living today for most and left 529s worth a lot to each  of my 3 kids.  I'm sorry.  I swear I'll make a tax/investing/healthcare mistake in the next few years and be poor again agian if possible, lord knows its easy.

Yeah, this site is quite peculiar from real life in the fact that 'over - saving' is looked upon as 'years of life wasted'.  Although I appreciate the well-intended nature people have when they mutter 'ER already', it does come across as very different from the real world.  I don't think anyone will regret sailing in to old age being able to live comfortably and not have to worry about running out of money.  I just keep my NW vague when I talk about it and focus on the FI aspect. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 11, 2019, 02:09:26 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 11, 2019, 12:26:09 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 10, 2019, 01:58:29 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 05, 2019, 04:18:52 PM

Yes but when can I do all my international travel in Business class and eat caviar every day?

$3M is just NOT enough..;)

I don't understand why the same thing wouldn't be said about $2M? Or $1M? or $500K?

Sorry, trying to increase my net worth (as more seems better than less) and I'm not exactly sure at what dollar amount that goes from a good thing to a bad thing.  I'm not gonna be so obnoxious as to get into DAFs I've created, etc.  My only defense is that my business took off so fast I couldnt quit earlier (I went form $1M to $3m in the last 3 years).  I wanted to make sure the employees had a job elsewhere or I swear I would have stopped earning income sooner.  I promise.  I'm sorry.  If it helps I hate cavier and I've never flown anything other than coach and I am admittedly worried about the price of living today for most and left 529s worth a lot to each  of my 3 kids.  I'm sorry.  I swear I'll make a tax/investing/healthcare mistake in the next few years and be poor again agian if possible, lord knows its easy.

Yeah, this site is quite peculiar from real life in the fact that 'over - saving' is looked upon as 'years of life wasted'.  Although I appreciate the well-intended nature people have when they mutter 'ER already', it does come across as very different from the real world.  I don't think anyone will regret sailing in to old age being able to live comfortably and not have to worry about running out of money.  I just keep my NW vague when I talk about it and focus on the FI aspect.

Gotcha.  It wouldn't have normally caught me off-guard guess I just thought I'd be safe on this thread given the name of it...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on April 11, 2019, 09:01:13 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 11, 2019, 12:26:09 PM

Yeah, this site is quite peculiar from real life in the fact that 'over - saving' is looked upon as 'years of life wasted'.  Although I appreciate the well-intended nature people have when they mutter 'ER already', it does come across as very different from the real world.  I don't think anyone will regret sailing in to old age being able to live comfortably and not have to worry about running out of money.  I just keep my NW vague when I talk about it and focus on the FI aspect.

I don't post often and even I have already had people ask (in the main forum) why I am not retired (In my case its $2Mil (adding in the GFs funds + our pensions down the road)).  I'm mostly looking at the FI too, and really when you get to our finance levels I can understand why someone would say that.  For me I am just waiting until my pension will start day one of RE and I am out the door.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 12, 2019, 08:01:32 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 11, 2019, 02:09:26 PM

Gotcha.  It wouldn't have normally caught me off-guard guess I just thought I'd be safe on this thread given the name of it...

Yup, nowhere is safe apparently.  Just a well-intentioned quirk that I got used to after the first hundred or so times ;)  And hey, nothing wrong with challenging someone in the comfort zone to make sure they are making the right decisions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 12, 2019, 08:34:36 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 12, 2019, 08:01:32 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 11, 2019, 02:09:26 PM

Gotcha.  It wouldn't have normally caught me off-guard guess I just thought I'd be safe on this thread given the name of it...

Yup, nowhere is safe apparently.  Just a well-intentioned quirk that I got used to after the first hundred or so times ;)  And hey, nothing wrong with challenging someone in the comfort zone to make sure they are making the right decisions.

These two comments have me very confused.  Did I miss something?  ExFlyBoy commented, somewhat tongue in cheek, that 3MM might not keep him in caviar and business class.   I thought it was a cute comment and the followup posts are confusing.   Where did anyone say anything personally negative?   Color me clueless...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 12, 2019, 09:13:37 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on April 12, 2019, 08:34:36 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 12, 2019, 08:01:32 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 11, 2019, 02:09:26 PM

Gotcha.  It wouldn't have normally caught me off-guard guess I just thought I'd be safe on this thread given the name of it...

Yup, nowhere is safe apparently.  Just a well-intentioned quirk that I got used to after the first hundred or so times ;)  And hey, nothing wrong with challenging someone in the comfort zone to make sure they are making the right decisions.

These two comments have me very confused.  Did I miss something?  ExFlyBoy commented, somewhat tongue in cheek, that 3MM might not keep him in caviar and business class.   I thought it was a cute comment and the followup posts are confusing.   Where did anyone say anything personally negative?   Color me clueless...

Not clueless, just another thing I have run across with posting online as opposed to this being a conversation in person.  EFB sarcastically commented, as you noted, tongue-in-cheek.  MFtD maybe did not fully pick up on the sarcasm, this being online and missing things like body language and tone, but also it is a common refrain on MMM Forums that over-saving is a problem to be avoided.  I don't think anyone was being negative though, just continuing the conversation about this 'over-saving calamity'.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on April 12, 2019, 02:20:22 PM

Just venting—my investments hit a high today, but I didn’t withhold enough from my paycheck over the year, plus my taxes are higher because of the stupid new tax law, so my NW will be back down as soon as my tax check gets cashed.
I’m strongly in favor of higher taxes, but I have Strong Feelings about our current politicians not even trying to pretend that they’re not using their offices for personal gain, and it’s sticking in my craw.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 12, 2019, 02:36:47 PM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on April 12, 2019, 02:20:22 PM

Just venting—my investments hit a high today, but I didn’t withhold enough from my paycheck over the year, plus my taxes are higher because of the stupid new tax law, so my NW will be back down as soon as my tax check gets cashed.
I’m strongly in favor of higher taxes, but I have Strong Feelings about our current politicians not even trying to pretend that they’re not using their offices for personal gain, and it’s sticking in my craw.

I’d be irked in your position also. I’m not a fan of the new tax law though it will be a boon for us in retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on April 12, 2019, 03:09:01 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 12, 2019, 02:36:47 PM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on April 12, 2019, 02:20:22 PM

Just venting—my investments hit a high today, but I didn’t withhold enough from my paycheck over the year, plus my taxes are higher because of the stupid new tax law, so my NW will be back down as soon as my tax check gets cashed.
I’m strongly in favor of higher taxes, but I have Strong Feelings about our current politicians not even trying to pretend that they’re not using their offices for personal gain, and it’s sticking in my craw.

I’d be irked in your position also. I’m not a fan of the new tax law though it will be a boon for us in retirement.

Yeah. On the glass half full side, this extra tax liability is an annoyance but doesn’t materially affect my finances, and I’m lucky to be in that position. I would just feel better about paying it if I felt my taxes were being instead of grifter/wasted.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on April 12, 2019, 04:41:08 PM

On the other hand much of the tax cut will go toward corporate stock buy backs which is driving up the stock market and hence your net worth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 12, 2019, 05:13:42 PM

Those of us with significant stock exposure should be feeling more wealthy than we ever have today...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 12, 2019, 09:02:05 PM

Hmmmmmm - Something about those last posts smells 1929.  Underneath the stack of cards, I just feel there is a real value there crying to get out.  Unfortunately, it's a small voice which indicates its actual size.

But, I guess it's not happening to everyone like 1929.  Most people just live paycheck to paycheck.  It's just if it seems to good to be true,....

I'm still working, but it sure is a good feeling that if they told me to go, I could go with a smile that they probably wouldn't understand. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on April 13, 2019, 11:12:34 AM

Quote from: pecunia on April 12, 2019, 09:02:05 PM

Hmmmmmm - Something about those last posts smells 1929.  Underneath the stack of cards, I just feel there is a real value there crying to get out.  Unfortunately, it's a small voice which indicates its actual size.

But, I guess it's not happening to everyone like 1929.  Most people just live paycheck to paycheck.  It's just if it seems to good to be true,....

I'm still working, but it sure is a good feeling that if they told me to go, I could go with a smile that they probably wouldn't understand.

If we have people like Stephen Moore elevated to the Federal Reserve Board trying to impose the Gold Standard then yes it will be 1929 Redux.

Stephen Moore would be clueless on how to navigate a financial crisis if it hit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 13, 2019, 02:49:52 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on April 13, 2019, 11:12:34 AM

- SNIP -

If we have people like Stephen Moore elevated to the Federal Reserve Board trying to impose the Gold Standard then yes it will be 1929 Redux.

Stephen Moore would be clueless on how to navigate a financial crisis if it hit.

Whoa!  I thought this was a guy who owned a bar in Ypsilanti.  I was wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Moore_(writer) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Moore_(writer))

This guy looks like bad news.  He is a supply sider.  They maintain their philosophy despite reality giving them the indication that they should take an alternate approach.  I'm beginning to think the election of 2020 can't come fast enough.  It's time for a change in the country's management.

Despite the great stock market gains of recent times, some of these boys may be doing their best to kill the 4 percent rule.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 16, 2019, 06:15:39 PM

This sucks. 
Last week we had a new roof installed on our Florida home.  The cost was over $25,000.  That price includes removal of the old roof, removal of all damaged plywood, cost of new materials, disposal of old materials, paychecks for the crew of workers and profits for the company.   It took them four days.  In that same time, the market provided us with an increase greater than the total cost of the job.  Working for a living is a silly way to make money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 16, 2019, 07:07:29 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 16, 2019, 06:15:39 PM

This sucks. 
Last week we had a new roof installed on our Florida home.  The cost was over $25,000.  That price includes removal of the old roof, removal of all damaged plywood, cost of new materials, disposal of old materials, paychecks for the crew of workers and profits for the company.   It took them four days.  In that same time, the market provided us with an increase greater than the total cost of the job.  Working for a living is a silly way to make money.

Your right totally does suck.. ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 16, 2019, 07:41:05 PM

Some of you may soon be hitting your "beyond."  Predictions are for new stock market highs.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/dow-finishes-higher-tuesday-and-a-new-high-looks-almost-inevitable-51555450227 (https://www.barrons.com/articles/dow-finishes-higher-tuesday-and-a-new-high-looks-almost-inevitable-51555450227)

These are strange times we live in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 16, 2019, 07:46:03 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 16, 2019, 07:41:05 PM

Some of you may soon be hitting your "beyond."  Predictions are for new stock market highs.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/dow-finishes-higher-tuesday-and-a-new-high-looks-almost-inevitable-51555450227 (https://www.barrons.com/articles/dow-finishes-higher-tuesday-and-a-new-high-looks-almost-inevitable-51555450227)

These are strange times we live in.

If I count funny money (pension valuations and home value) I think I am "beyond". Feels like the Voyager space craft having just left the solar system.. Where will it end?

I'm wondering if I'll live long enough to see 8 figures...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 17, 2019, 02:07:16 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 16, 2019, 07:46:03 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 16, 2019, 07:41:05 PM

Some of you may soon be hitting your "beyond."  Predictions are for new stock market highs.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/dow-finishes-higher-tuesday-and-a-new-high-looks-almost-inevitable-51555450227 (https://www.barrons.com/articles/dow-finishes-higher-tuesday-and-a-new-high-looks-almost-inevitable-51555450227)

These are strange times we live in.

If I count funny money (pension valuations and home value) I think I am "beyond". Feels like the Voyager space craft having just left the solar system.. Where will it end?

I'm wondering if I'll live long enough to see 8 figures...:)

If I were to continue to work and invest.   It looks like 8 figures would come at age 67.
That's 17 years, with continued 8% growth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 17, 2019, 05:38:22 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 17, 2019, 02:07:16 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 16, 2019, 07:46:03 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 16, 2019, 07:41:05 PM

Some of you may soon be hitting your "beyond."  Predictions are for new stock market highs.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/dow-finishes-higher-tuesday-and-a-new-high-looks-almost-inevitable-51555450227 (https://www.barrons.com/articles/dow-finishes-higher-tuesday-and-a-new-high-looks-almost-inevitable-51555450227)

These are strange times we live in.

If I count funny money (pension valuations and home value) I think I am "beyond". Feels like the Voyager space craft having just left the solar system.. Where will it end?

I'm wondering if I'll live long enough to see 8 figures...:)

If I were to continue to work and invest.   It looks like 8 figures would come at age 67.
That's 17 years, with continued 8% growth.

That's been the most disorienting part about compounding at these large numbers.  It was one thing when 1 million slowly but surely became 2 million, but then 3 million comes in half the time!  And when you hit 4 million, then 5 million comes really quickly!  And you start to see net worth jumps of tens of thousands of dollars every day as being 'normal'.

But alas, once you have enough, more than enough is all the same.  I try not to let any of it change me, because I could easily justify doing some really dumb things with all this easy 'compounding money'.  I have to stop and remind myself how great a simple, efficient life is.  As long as I have my health, my family, and access to the internet, the rest is gravy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on April 17, 2019, 06:50:40 AM

It's tough to emotionally accept that there's some attainable number where you can stop working and be ok.  I'm there and my wife is 1000 times there.  My goal has been to hit 50 times spending and I'm $50k away from hitting that number.  I like seeing my pay hit and the market go up and see my stache growing out and being able to form waxed curls at each end like handle bars.  But life goes on and between paying for black swan events last year and DS#1 changing course and going to grad school it doesn't "feel" like I can stop working.  So I do plan to cruise right by my target number and continue working my low stress, highly paid job until he's out of grad school.  DS#2 will still be in college but is going the low cost route with years 1 and 2 in community college and plans for 3 and 4 at state college.  So I'm not expecting to pay the cost of a new Lamborghini Huracan (what DS#1 cost) for DS#2. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on April 17, 2019, 07:34:54 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 17, 2019, 05:38:22 AM

That's been the most disorienting part about compounding at these large numbers.  It was one thing when 1 million slowly but surely became 2 million, but then 3 million comes in half the time!  And when you hit 4 million, then 5 million comes really quickly!  And you start to see net worth jumps of tens of thousands of dollars every day as being 'normal'.

I remember when moves of $1,000 or more in my accounts were amazing.  Its gotten to the point now if my accounts don't move $1,000 in a day I am surprised.  So yes, the daily movements when your stache hits these numbers is starting to look like pretend values.  And I'm sure like many here my stache grew faster than my salary in 2016 & 2017 which was amazing.

I joke/not joke at work to my buddy I am working any more for the subsidized health insurance.  In reality I am just waiting for the pension to kick in, but there are days I look at the 'stache movements and ask "Why am I coming in to work again?".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 17, 2019, 09:04:09 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 17, 2019, 02:07:16 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 16, 2019, 07:46:03 PM

I'm wondering if I'll live long enough to see 8 figures...:)

If I were to continue to work and invest.   It looks like 8 figures would come at age 67.
That's 17 years, with continued 8% growth.

I'm solidly in the "and beyond" territory, but it never dawned on me to hope for or realistically expect 8 figures.   If I stumble upon that level of NW, then, cool.   Since most of our NW and income is from rental properties, I'll have to take a look at what could be a reasonable expectation over the next 2 decades.  Will it exponentially grow like the market does?  I'm not sure.   I'll have to re-read the "returns of just about everything' study. 
Real Estate equity seems more prone to growth/ plateau patterns, and you only cash in when you sell. There's only so much your rents can go up, but mine have increased about 50% in the past 6 years or so.   My goal is to spend our monthly income worry free, with no further need to save.   If there's excess, sure, into the market it goes.  Or, I'll donate more, help the grandkids more, or order the lobster. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 17, 2019, 09:12:47 AM

I feel reasonably confident that if I worked until 65 I’d hit 10M by retirement but that’s not the plan.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 17, 2019, 10:22:19 AM

We should reach 2.5M by 2021, it is possible we'll see 8 figures and still retire at 52.  Hope to spend about 60K annually.   Here's what simplified FIRECalc says.


FIRECalc looked at the 119 possible 30 year periods in the available data, starting with a portfolio of $2,500,000 and spending your specified amounts each year thereafter.

Here is how your portfolio would have fared in each of the 119 cycles. The lowest and highest portfolio balance at the end of your retirement was $2,500,000 to $17,820,987, with an average at the end of $7,936,852. (Note: this is looking at all the possible periods; values are in terms of the dollars as of the beginning of the retirement period for each cycle.)

For our purposes, failure means the portfolio was depleted before the end of the 30 years. FIRECalc found that 0 cycles failed, for a success rate of 100.0%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 17, 2019, 03:00:13 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on April 17, 2019, 06:50:40 AM

It's tough to emotionally accept that there's some attainable number where you can stop working and be ok. 

Its even tougher to actually do it.. I.e quit work.

Even after 2 full years of no income whatsoever I still have the nagging doubt thats its all going to come crashing down one day soon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on April 17, 2019, 06:20:16 PM

I do have that anxiety as well.

I'm still working part time, but I've cut back, and part of me is relieved, and part of me still has some worry. But when I think about the rate of death as one guys from 50's, to 60's, and beyond, I think the real issue is to make sure I maintain healthy life habits. Taking the time for health and wellness is way more important than going from 2 million to 10 million. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 17, 2019, 06:47:19 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on April 17, 2019, 06:20:16 PM

I do have that anxiety as well.

I'm still working part time, but I've cut back, and part of me is relieved, and part of me still has some worry. But when I think about the rate of death as one guys from 50's, to 60's, and beyond, I think the real issue is to make sure I maintain healthy life habits. Taking the time for health and wellness is way more important than going from 2 million to 10 million.

Yup you're absolutely right, the risk of running out of time is far higher than the risk of running out of money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 18, 2019, 04:44:30 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 17, 2019, 06:47:19 PM

-SNIP-

Yup you're absolutely right, the risk of running out of time is far higher than the risk of running out of money.

Those are wise words.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 18, 2019, 09:32:37 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 18, 2019, 04:44:30 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 17, 2019, 06:47:19 PM

-SNIP-

Yup you're absolutely right, the risk of running out of time is far higher than the risk of running out of money.

Those are wise words.

They're also hard earned, aren't they, EFB? *snirt*

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 18, 2019, 10:32:29 PM

Quote from: Dicey on April 18, 2019, 09:32:37 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 18, 2019, 04:44:30 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 17, 2019, 06:47:19 PM

-SNIP-

Yup you're absolutely right, the risk of running out of time is far higher than the risk of running out of money.

Those are wise words.

They're also hard earned, aren't they, EFB? *snirt*

Ouch!..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 19, 2019, 02:30:23 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 17, 2019, 03:00:13 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on April 17, 2019, 06:50:40 AM

It's tough to emotionally accept that there's some attainable number where you can stop working and be ok. 

Its even tougher to actually do it.. I.e quit work.

Even after 2 full years of no income whatsoever I still have the nagging doubt thats its all going to come crashing down one day soon.

I feel that way after 4 years so not sure when that feeling goes away!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 19, 2019, 06:09:45 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 19, 2019, 02:30:23 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 17, 2019, 03:00:13 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on April 17, 2019, 06:50:40 AM

It's tough to emotionally accept that there's some attainable number where you can stop working and be ok. 

Its even tougher to actually do it.. I.e quit work.

Even after 2 full years of no income whatsoever I still have the nagging doubt thats its all going to come crashing down one day soon.

I feel that way after 4 years so not sure when that feeling goes away!

SL4 - One thing that should help is that, if you begin to struggle at some point, then you'll know others are REALLY struggling.  This is what I think of around health care.  Think of it as a marathon full of people the same age where you are walking the last mile to the finish line and others, that may even be faster than you at this point (still working and training), are still at the one mile mark.

And if things get unfair enough for those people trying to finish their race and finding the obstacles to be 'unjust', then the whole race will change and there is nothing you can do about that.  But for the time being, you kicked enough butt in the first 25 miles to enjoy this last mile (or so).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 19, 2019, 12:27:43 PM

I like the race analogy.   It hits home.  I've had a lifetime of almost, but not quite finished things.  Very important life things that nag at me.  These were 90 to 95 percent finished things that I just never fully accomplished or completed.  I'm at that same point in my career.  Quitting now could be perceived as one more unfinished thing.  Working and saving is about all I've ever got right.  I've gotta finish this.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 19, 2019, 02:09:29 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2019, 12:27:43 PM

I like the race analogy.   It hits home.  I've had a lifetime of almost, but not quite finished things.  Very important life things that nag at me.  These were 90 to 95 percent finished things that I just never fully accomplished or completed.  I'm at that same point in my career.  Quitting now could be perceived as one more unfinished thing.  Working and saving is about all I've ever got right.  I've gotta finish this.

I think we are somewhat hardwired to finish saving as well. Trouble is the finish line is somewhat ill defined.

In reality I found I started saving for multiple black swan events.. I.e what if we both have cancer that we have to fund out of pocket then both immediately move into a nursing home?

Its not logical but you can easily justify working till you die.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on April 19, 2019, 03:02:06 PM

I've had similar thoughts and wondered if I were disabled how much money would I need for medical expenses above and beyond living expenses to come up with a safe withdrawal rate.

but I think most of us on here would be fine if such an unexpected event occurred.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 20, 2019, 01:50:30 AM

Boy, a lot of fear here today..... and from the rich kids with more than $2m in the bank no less. Lord help the other 95%.....

.... but false bravado aside, I too have to admit some trepidation at the next steps I take.

I really don’t know for certain whether I will pull the pin later this year. I’d really like to, but I feel like I am still waiting on a definitive sign to confirm it’s the right course of action.

Using an annuity calculator, I showed my wife how much we could spend for the next 50 years assuming returns of inflation+3%. She said “wow that’s loads, and what chance is there we will even live 50 more years?”..... of course annuity calculators ignore sequence Of return risk, but we have some protection against SORR in that at least 40% of our budget is discretionary and 15% of our income is an indexed govt secured pension, and we are well diversified between stocks and property.

We really should be fine..... but the nagging fear is there.... and so i lose a lot of sleep about what I’ll do in 4 months time. It’s seems surreal that I could be doing whatever the hell I want and wrapping up my career 20 years early.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 20, 2019, 09:16:13 AM

We have a family friend who has told me, “Retire early and often!”  I can’t wrap my mind around the optimism that says you can just hang it up and then bounce back in and work some more if you need to.  The fear and trepidation is real!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 20, 2019, 10:47:57 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on April 20, 2019, 01:50:30 AM

Boy, a lot of fear here today..... and from the rich kids with more than $2m in the bank no less. Lord help the other 95%.....

.... but false bravado aside, I too have to admit some trepidation at the next steps I take.

I really don’t know for certain whether I will pull the pin later this year. I’d really like to, but I feel like I am still waiting on a definitive sign to confirm it’s the right course of action.

Using an annuity calculator, I showed my wife how much we could spend for the next 50 years assuming returns of inflation+3%. She said “wow that’s loads, and what chance is there we will even live 50 more years?”..... of course annuity calculators ignore sequence Of return risk, but we have some protection against SORR in that at least 40% of our budget is discretionary and 15% of our income is an indexed govt secured pension, and we are well diversified between stocks and property.

We really should be fine..... but the nagging fear is there.... and so i lose a lot of sleep about what I’ll do in 4 months time. It’s seems surreal that I could be doing whatever the hell I want and wrapping up my career 20 years early.....

Exactly my point.. What if there is no definitive sign? I mean sure if you get sick or laid off thats definitive kind of.. But even then there are lots of jobs to be had.

Honestly for most of us I think its a case of hitting the number then pulling the pin.. What else is there?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 20, 2019, 11:00:26 AM

We couldn't/wouldn't pull the pin until about a year and a half ago, and even then, since we're self employed and running the property management, it's debatable whether or not it was actually pulled.   But the bulk of DH's workload was lifted when we sold a business in 2017.  We made good money but still had big debt on the rentals-- 6 or 7 mortgages just a couple of years ago.  I still felt like our future was not secure, rather that we were juggling just as many balls on a smaller income/cash flow.  There was profit, but the margins were thin.   Now the multiple mortgages are paid off, and it feels like things have changed and are secure.   I'm not NW/debt reduction obsessed like I once was, when I was chipping, chipping chipping away at those mortgages. 

 FWIW, the unfinished projects are still unfinished, because we're busy doing really fun things (travel, hiking, relaxing) and not doing a heck of a lot of tidying up the loose ends of projects.  They waited this long, they can wait a while longer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 20, 2019, 11:27:54 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 20, 2019, 10:47:57 AM

- SNIP -

Honestly for most of us I think its a case of hitting the number then pulling the pin.. What else is there?

It's the 900 lb gorilla, health care.  The ACA thing may be in there solid enough that it can be relied upon, but I am still looking to see how things shake up in the next few months approaching 2020.  So, I keep working and building up the stash and using up the days of my life to do so.

However, I think about how it would be to be retired.  I would eat more healthy as I would have more time to gather and prepare the food.  I would exercise more as I like to hike and bike.  I would probably sleep better. 

So, maybe building up the stash largely for health care trepidation, may be unwarranted.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 20, 2019, 01:28:23 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 20, 2019, 11:27:54 AM

- SNIP -
So, maybe building up the stash largely for health care trepidation, may be unwarranted.

A quick perusal of the cost of healthcare vs. inflation over the last twenty years might give you pause, pecunia. Healthcare trepidation is a hugely valid concern, especially with aging, no matter how good your self care is.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 20, 2019, 10:29:24 PM

I'd say most of my fears revolve around the cost of care.   I don't see a healthy future for myself or my family.   May have to push a little further and lockmin the company benefits.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 21, 2019, 04:52:20 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 19, 2019, 06:09:45 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 19, 2019, 02:30:23 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 17, 2019, 03:00:13 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on April 17, 2019, 06:50:40 AM

It's tough to emotionally accept that there's some attainable number where you can stop working and be ok. 

Its even tougher to actually do it.. I.e quit work.

Even after 2 full years of no income whatsoever I still have the nagging doubt thats its all going to come crashing down one day soon.

I feel that way after 4 years so not sure when that feeling goes away!

SL4 - One thing that should help is that, if you begin to struggle at some point, then you'll know others are REALLY struggling.  This is what I think of around health care.  Think of it as a marathon full of people the same age where you are walking the last mile to the finish line and others, that may even be faster than you at this point (still working and training), are still at the one mile mark.

And if things get unfair enough for those people trying to finish their race and finding the obstacles to be 'unjust', then the whole race will change and there is nothing you can do about that.  But for the time being, you kicked enough butt in the first 25 miles to enjoy this last mile (or so).

Great Analogy!

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 20, 2019, 10:47:57 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on April 20, 2019, 01:50:30 AM

Boy, a lot of fear here today..... and from the rich kids with more than $2m in the bank no less. Lord help the other 95%.....

.... but false bravado aside, I too have to admit some trepidation at the next steps I take.

I really don’t know for certain whether I will pull the pin later this year. I’d really like to, but I feel like I am still waiting on a definitive sign to confirm it’s the right course of action.

Using an annuity calculator, I showed my wife how much we could spend for the next 50 years assuming returns of inflation+3%. She said “wow that’s loads, and what chance is there we will even live 50 more years?”..... of course annuity calculators ignore sequence Of return risk, but we have some protection against SORR in that at least 40% of our budget is discretionary and 15% of our income is an indexed govt secured pension, and we are well diversified between stocks and property.

We really should be fine..... but the nagging fear is there.... and so i lose a lot of sleep about what I’ll do in 4 months time. It’s seems surreal that I could be doing whatever the hell I want and wrapping up my career 20 years early.....

Exactly my point.. What if there is no definitive sign? I mean sure if you get sick or laid off thats definitive kind of.. But even then there are lots of jobs to be had.

Honestly for most of us I think its a case of hitting the number then pulling the pin.. What else is there?

That's why I pulled the pin because there will always be something otherwise to talk you out of it.


Healthcare to us 4 years ago when I fired was the biggest consideration in our decision and its still something that we constantly evaluate and probably always will have to. Having said that I agree until there is a resolution if the shit really hits the fan for most people here if need be there is plenty of work just like its a back up plan if portfolios for some just went bust. Think about it rationally but dont let it stop you from moving forward.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 21, 2019, 10:30:49 AM

I'm very ready to go.   I'm having to cancel a luxury 4 bedroom condo in Mazatlan Memorial Day week.   It's my wife's work conflict and a change in dates of our sons graduation that's blocking us.  Waiting out the election next year won't kill me.  As soon as we know the future of the ACA is safe, I'm done.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on April 21, 2019, 10:34:17 AM

Healthcare is one of my primary motivators for voting Democrat

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 21, 2019, 10:52:46 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on April 21, 2019, 10:34:17 AM

Healthcare is one of my primary motivators for voting Democrat

Are you sure?  Our President said that the Republican Party Will Become Known As The "Party of Healthcare."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/26/politics/trump-obamacare-repeal/index.html

The Republican Party and the major ensurers will be working in lockstep to assure that the Public has access to the very best of American healthcare.  It's a complex issue and I guess they can't expect the rest of us to truly understand all of the intricacies as they are technological as well as having major fiduciary concerns.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on April 21, 2019, 11:29:27 AM

Quote from: pecunia on April 21, 2019, 10:52:46 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on April 21, 2019, 10:34:17 AM

Healthcare is one of my primary motivators for voting Democrat

Are you sure?  Our President said that the Republican Party Will Become Known As The "Party of Healthcare."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/26/politics/trump-obamacare-repeal/index.html

The Republican Party and the major ensurers will be working in lockstep to assure that the Public has access to the very best of American healthcare.  It's a complex issue and I guess they can't expect the rest of us to truly understand all of the intricacies as they are technological as well as having major fiduciary concerns.

Are you trolling? Or just having a hard time with English?

Ensurers are going to assure that we all have the best health care?

Ok.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FIREstache on April 21, 2019, 12:10:33 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on April 21, 2019, 11:29:27 AM

Quote from: pecunia on April 21, 2019, 10:52:46 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on April 21, 2019, 10:34:17 AM

Healthcare is one of my primary motivators for voting Democrat

Are you sure?  Our President said that the Republican Party Will Become Known As The "Party of Healthcare."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/26/politics/trump-obamacare-repeal/index.html

The Republican Party and the major ensurers will be working in lockstep to assure that the Public has access to the very best of American healthcare.  It's a complex issue and I guess they can't expect the rest of us to truly understand all of the intricacies as they are technological as well as having major fiduciary concerns.

Are you trolling? Or just having a hard time with English?

Ensurers are going to assure that we all have the best health care?

Ok.

Maybe Pecunia means that insurers along with the Republican party are going to ensure that we all have the best health care, not that he/she really believes that but pointing out the irony vs. what Republicans have actually done.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on April 21, 2019, 12:38:13 PM

Gotcha, I thought it was a play on words.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 21, 2019, 01:13:02 PM

I was never a Democrat till I had my financial well being saved by the ACA.  You'll commit political suicide if you reinstate preexisting conditions and lifetime limits.  You can fool the voters a lot of the time, but even the greatest fools realize they don't want to give those basics up again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 21, 2019, 09:55:46 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 21, 2019, 01:13:02 PM

I was never a Democrat till I had my financial well being saved by the ACA.  You'll commit political suicide if you reinstate preexisting conditions and lifetime limits.  You can fool the voters a lot of the time, but even the greatest fools realize they don't want to give those basics up again.

Note I said "access" to the very best health care.  You have "access" to a Lamborgini too.  You may not have "access" for sufficient funds for either.

Abe Lincoln quote:

“You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

Some of the fools have had good insurance from their employers and really don't understand what others are giving up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 22, 2019, 12:11:10 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 21, 2019, 09:55:46 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 21, 2019, 01:13:02 PM

I was never a Democrat till I had my financial well being saved by the ACA.  You'll commit political suicide if you reinstate preexisting conditions and lifetime limits.  You can fool the voters a lot of the time, but even the greatest fools realize they don't want to give those basics up again.

Note I said "access" to the very best health care.  You have "access" to a Lamborgini too.  You may not have "access" for sufficient funds for either.

Abe Lincoln quote:

“You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

Some of the fools have had good insurance from their employers and really don't understand what others are giving up.

Precisely why the benefit of free insurance from your employer should be taxed.. So everybody feels the pain!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 23, 2019, 01:56:39 PM

I've been a winey pants lately.   Rode my bicycle 70 miles.  I'm much better now.  Butt is swollen a bit, but, I'm still better.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on April 23, 2019, 04:16:05 PM

Wow that's incredible. I take a spinning class and it says I ride 11 miles in 30 minutes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 23, 2019, 07:13:37 PM

New Record Highs!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html)

The sky is falling and the correction is coming.

2 million to 3 million and back to 1929 and the poorhouse. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 23, 2019, 11:46:31 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 23, 2019, 07:13:37 PM

New Record Highs!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html)

The sky is falling and the correction is coming.

2 million to 3 million and back to 1929 and the poorhouse.

Yup all downhill from here.. Wait I thought this was the "top is in" thread..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 24, 2019, 01:46:21 AM

The nice thing is, like all the other multimillionaires on this planet, we don't need to even think about the market.  All I bother myself with is, when  swipe my credit card at the grocery store, other people are paying :)  Sometimes I pay out of my salary, but that was like 10+ years ago!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 24, 2019, 03:25:49 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 24, 2019, 01:46:21 AM

The nice thing is, like all the other multimillionaires on this planet, we don't need to even think about the market.  All I bother myself with is, when  swipe my credit card at the grocery store, other people are paying :)  Sometimes I pay out of my salary, but that was like 10+ years ago!

What a sweet peaceful way to look at it.  I guess I never thought about it before.  Getting FU money lets you say FU to the stock market guys too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 24, 2019, 03:37:58 AM

Quote from: pecunia on April 24, 2019, 03:25:49 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 24, 2019, 01:46:21 AM

The nice thing is, like all the other multimillionaires on this planet, we don't need to even think about the market.  All I bother myself with is, when  swipe my credit card at the grocery store, other people are paying :)  Sometimes I pay out of my salary, but that was like 10+ years ago!

What a sweet peaceful way to look at it.  I guess I never thought about it before.  Getting FU money lets you say FU to the stock market guys too.

As long as we're not, say, 100% equities right now, we probably have plenty of money tucked away to ride out whatever turbulence might come as well as enjoy whatever remaining updraft there is.  Just glad I'm not starting my savings and accumulation journey right now though (did that from 1996 - 2000 with tech stocks - ugh!).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 24, 2019, 03:46:19 AM

Yea i dont know if I am being honest if I was just starting out and say had 200k to start investing if I would just put it in the market. I would most likely DCA in on the first decline. Just saying.......Glad too I am not at that point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 24, 2019, 07:10:00 AM

Quote from: pecunia on April 23, 2019, 07:13:37 PM

New Record Highs!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html)

The sky is falling and the correction is coming.

2 million to 3 million and back to 1929 and the poorhouse.

Lol, you inspired me to check our biggest account, which is the only one I monitor with any degree of regularity. Wow! Thanks, pecunia!

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 24, 2019, 01:46:21 AM

The nice thing is, like all the other multimillionaires on this planet, we don't need to even think about the market.  All I bother myself with is, when  swipe my credit card at the grocery store, other people are paying :)  Sometimes I pay out of my salary, but that was like 10+ years ago!

.
So much this! It amazes me that after years of crafting my lifestyle to be as inexpensive as possible, despite my HCOLA circumstances, now I literally don't have to pay attention any more. It's all on autopilot and there's plenty more than I ever intend to spend. I was never a high wage earner, so this still amazes me. The primary reason for this working out the way it did was that someone patiently convinced hard-headed me that putting only 20% down and keeping a mortgage (which was counter to my every instinct) was wicked smart.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 24, 2019, 07:55:49 AM

I play a guessing game with myself and Mint about how much daily gains/losses will be.  I missed by over $10,000 yesterday!  So how much I thought I'd gain, PLUS 10,000 DOLLARS!   WHATDAF!  My bicycle is 19 years old.  I'm getting a new one dammit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 24, 2019, 08:14:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 24, 2019, 07:55:49 AM

I play a guessing game with myself and Mint about how much daily gains/losses will be.  I missed by over $10,000 yesterday!  So how much I thought I'd gain, PLUS 10,000 DOLLARS!   WHATDAF!  My bicycle is 19 years old.  I'm getting a new one dammit.

Hahah.. Beware the hedonistic adaption..:)

I think my mattress got padded with about $13k yesterday. If you told me this would be happening fairly regularly 20 years ago there is no way I could have believed it.

Its like these dump trucks full of money keep backup and dumping into my driveway.. At least for right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on April 24, 2019, 08:17:00 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 23, 2019, 11:46:31 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 23, 2019, 07:13:37 PM

New Record Highs!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html)

The sky is falling and the correction is coming.

2 million to 3 million and back to 1929 and the poorhouse.

Yup all downhill from here.. Wait I thought this was the "top is in" thread..:)

my bonus just came through and went into my investment account so yup - the market will shirley crash.

even though the market statistically spends a lot of time at "all time highs" it still concerns me.

we surpassed $3.6m for the first time but i spend more time on bogleheads than MMM so i am "convinced" we need double what we have...[frowny face]

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 24, 2019, 08:38:35 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on April 24, 2019, 08:17:00 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 23, 2019, 11:46:31 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 23, 2019, 07:13:37 PM

New Record Highs!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html)

The sky is falling and the correction is coming.

2 million to 3 million and back to 1929 and the poorhouse.

Yup all downhill from here.. Wait I thought this was the "top is in" thread..:)

my bonus just came through and went into my investment account so yup - the market will shirley crash.

even though the market statistically spends a lot of time at "all time highs" it still concerns me.

we surpassed $3.6m for the first time but i spend more time on bogleheads than MMM so i am "convinced" we need double what we have...[frowny face]

Maybe you should roll your AA a bit more to bonds?

I'm at 25% bonds but when the big crash happens I will roll to about 90% stocks and cash in on the recovery..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on April 24, 2019, 09:19:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 24, 2019, 08:38:35 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on April 24, 2019, 08:17:00 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 23, 2019, 11:46:31 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 23, 2019, 07:13:37 PM

New Record Highs!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html)

The sky is falling and the correction is coming.

2 million to 3 million and back to 1929 and the poorhouse.

Yup all downhill from here.. Wait I thought this was the "top is in" thread..:)

my bonus just came through and went into my investment account so yup - the market will shirley crash.

even though the market statistically spends a lot of time at "all time highs" it still concerns me.

we surpassed $3.6m for the first time but i spend more time on bogleheads than MMM so i am "convinced" we need double what we have...[frowny face]

Maybe you should roll your AA a bit more to bonds?

I'm at 25% bonds but when the big crash happens I will roll to about 90% stocks and cash in on the recovery..:)

I have ~10 years in bonds, or around 30%.  I can sleep but think i should put new money into bonds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 24, 2019, 10:11:39 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on April 24, 2019, 09:19:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 24, 2019, 08:38:35 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on April 24, 2019, 08:17:00 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 23, 2019, 11:46:31 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 23, 2019, 07:13:37 PM

New Record Highs!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/investing/stocks-hit-record-highs/index.html)

The sky is falling and the correction is coming.

2 million to 3 million and back to 1929 and the poorhouse.

Yup all downhill from here.. Wait I thought this was the "top is in" thread..:)

my bonus just came through and went into my investment account so yup - the market will shirley crash.

even though the market statistically spends a lot of time at "all time highs" it still concerns me.

we surpassed $3.6m for the first time but i spend more time on bogleheads than MMM so i am "convinced" we need double what we have...[frowny face]

Maybe you should roll your AA a bit more to bonds?

I'm at 25% bonds but when the big crash happens I will roll to about 90% stocks and cash in on the recovery..:)

I have ~10 years in bonds, or around 30%.  I can sleep but think i should put new money into bonds.

10 YEARS in bonds and that is 30% of your stash? You definitely need to spend more time cleaning your optimism gun and less time on the Bogleheads forum. There are some smart people there but damn, their pessimism is out of control sometimes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on April 24, 2019, 11:05:16 AM

Re bonds
Bonds are return- free risk, per Jim Grant
https://www.ft.com/content/bd69356a-c229-11dd-a350-000077b07658

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-14/jim-grant-world-wide-suppression-interest-rates-has-been-crime

Disclaimer,
I'm taking 2 months spending from VTSAX.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on April 24, 2019, 11:51:41 AM

Quote

I have ~10 years in bonds, or around 30%.  I can sleep but think i should put new money into bonds.

Quote

10 YEARS in bonds and that is 30% of your stash? You definitely need to spend more time cleaning your optimism gun and less time on the Bogleheads forum. There are some smart people there but damn, their pessimism is out of control sometimes.

30% in bonds at 40 years old is hardly pessimistic.  also, google "bond tent" or "reverse glidepath".  there is demonstrable efficacy in starting early retirement with an outsized bond allocation to hedge against sequence of returns risk.

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 24, 2019, 12:09:52 PM

Oh I get it. The bond tent is a key part of our own strategy. My point was that TEN YEARS of spending is only 30% of the overall portfolio. That means the OP is already at 33x yearly spending which is pretty Bogleheads-ish.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on April 24, 2019, 12:14:45 PM

Regarding reverse glidepath, do you have any links to more in depth discussions about this?  I think it's relatively common knowledge around these parts that the first 10 years of FIRE play an outsized role in whether you fail retirement (and presumably the reverse is true, and relatively good returns in the first 10 years lead to large excess net worth). And I think most of us would trade away the chance of huge outlier ending net worths if it also negated those historical or simulated sequences that resulted in failure around a withdrawal rate of 4%. I'm just wondering if there has been more indepth analysis of this, and if so, whether it might even push safe WRs up closer to 5%, which for someone like me know is planning more of a fatFIRE could mean the difference in several years in a FIRE date.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on April 24, 2019, 01:06:35 PM

Quote from: PathtoFIRE on April 24, 2019, 12:14:45 PM

Regarding reverse glidepath, do you have any links to more in depth discussions about this?  I think it's relatively common knowledge around these parts that the first 10 years of FIRE play an outsized role in whether you fail retirement (and presumably the reverse is true, and relatively good returns in the first 10 years lead to large excess net worth). And I think most of us would trade away the chance of huge outlier ending net worths if it also negated those historical or simulated sequences that resulted in failure around a withdrawal rate of 4%. I'm just wondering if there has been more indepth analysis of this, and if so, whether it might even push safe WRs up closer to 5%, which for someone like me know is planning more of a fatFIRE could mean the difference in several years in a FIRE date.

this guy's research is a must read for anyone contemplating early retirement.

https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/09/13/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-19-equity-glidepaths/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 24, 2019, 01:20:06 PM

Quote from: PathtoFIRE on April 24, 2019, 12:14:45 PM

Regarding reverse glidepath, do you have any links to more in depth discussions about this?  I think it's relatively common knowledge around these parts that the first 10 years of FIRE play an outsized role in whether you fail retirement (and presumably the reverse is true, and relatively good returns in the first 10 years lead to large excess net worth). And I think most of us would trade away the chance of huge outlier ending net worths if it also negated those historical or simulated sequences that resulted in failure around a withdrawal rate of 4%. I'm just wondering if there has been more indepth analysis of this, and if so, whether it might even push safe WRs up closer to 5%, which for someone like me know is planning more of a fatFIRE could mean the difference in several years in a FIRE date.

This is our personal recipe for the glidepath along with analysis and discussion:
https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/09/13/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-19-equity-glidepaths/

I also have this bookmarked, though it has been a while since I have re-read the article:
https://www.kitces.com/blog/managing-portfolio-size-effect-with-bond-tent-in-retirement-red-zone/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on April 24, 2019, 01:55:25 PM

Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for to get started. I like Kitces's early graph showing "retirement date risk" and "sequence of returns risk" for the periods right before and after retirement. For many of us, especially high earners who don't absolutely loath their jobs, retirement date risk isn't that much of a risk, so after reading the two links from ERN and Kitces, I'm a little more inclined to maybe increase our equity exposure from the current 75% right now to maybe closer to 85-90%, increasing "retirement date risk" but also giving us a statistically better shot of hitting our number a year or more early, and then immediately dropping to 60% at that point, and gliding up to 90%+. At least, that's the idea that I need to now mull over for a few months. Now to read more and see the arguments against an approach like that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 24, 2019, 02:44:19 PM

I’m really interested what you learn and decide as we are in somewhat of a similar boat. We have been bringing in boatloads of cash these past couple of years, so on one hand it is hard to step away from that. On the other hand, I’m totally over this working-for-a-living thing. :-)

Do you have a mortgage? I haven’t yet processed and made peace with this article that talks about the risks of having a mortgage in retirement as it comes to sequence of returns risk and your asset allocation decisions. We seem to be doing what this article claims is the worst solution: holding the mortgage to its full term and doing the bond tent. https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/10/11/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-21-mortgage-in-retirement/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on April 25, 2019, 08:39:07 AM

We do not have a mortgage. In all reality my wife isn’t going to stop working. She makes a great salary and has terrific benefits.  Plus we have a 2 yr old and may have another child in the near future.

I may dial it back in 4 or 5 years. We’ll see. I’d like to fire with enough money that I don’t have to worry about one tents wtc. Even though I am sure we still will.
Right now we’re at a 3.2% SWR. I suspect that in 4-5 years we should have at least 40 years expenses. Still so many unknowns wrt health care and cost for kiddos’ activities.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on April 25, 2019, 11:10:31 AM

I did read that section about mortgages on ERN, and then I went back to the first part and opened a tab for future reading, and plan on rereading about the mortgage. We do have a mortgage, and it's right at $750k, so paying it off is not a minor choice, but up until now we had plan on keeping it, and possibly even recasting/refinancing it back out to 30 years just before FIRE, so that article has given me some more ideas to ruminate on.

One thing, about at least the ERN parts linked above that I read, that is made clear is that you kind of have to decide whether you are in the camp that believes that the CAPE10 continues to mean the same thing that it meant before the 2000s, or if you believe what some say regarding changes in accounting, etc. that translate into "naturally" higher CAPE10 values in recent years that can't necessarily be compared 1:1 with the more distant decades. Because what those charts all screamed at me more than anything was the difference between "all retirement dates" SWRs versus "CAPE>20" SWRs, even more so than which particular glidepath you use (and to make clear, the article stresses that using the glidepath, at least historically, in CAPE<20 retirement years provided NO benefit).

In other words, the analysis and commentary seems to suggest that if you believe the current CAPE>20 environment is going to result in sequence similar to the few scattered years around 1900, 1930, and 1965, then you should be planning an SWR of 3.5 and using a glidepath. But if you think that CAPEs of 20-30 are more equivalent to CAPE of 15-20 in past years, then maybe you don't need a bond tent/reverse glidepath and maybe and SWR of 4 still has a failure rate of around 5%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 25, 2019, 11:36:50 AM

I’m in a similar situation with regards to mortgage amount, so I agree that it is not an insignificant decision to make on how to handle it. I have read some debate about how good CAPE 10 is or is not at predicting future returns as well as whether changes in accounting methods reduce the predictive power of that. I’m not smart enough or learned enough on the subject to have an opinion. I’d be curious to hear where you come down on that debate.

I think I am not really but sort of am counting on a few items to provide margin in the plan: flexibility in spending; the ability to bring in some money in the future, whether it be some consulting by my husband or something as yet unknown; inheritance. I don’t plan on working necessarily in the future, but I keep stumbling on people all over the place online who mention how income-earning opportunities seem to fall I to their laps in FIRE. 

The last one feels almost a bit dirty and doesn’t actually figure into any of our calculations, but I also have in the back of my head that there are two couples in the generation above who have comfortable retirement income, are financially responsible, and have close to $1m invested with intentions to leave to my sister and me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bwall on April 26, 2019, 07:22:39 AM

CAPE 10 is tricky. People only started talking about it in .... 2017/18 (?), which is when the horrible comparisons from the Great Recession were at their (statistical) high point. Now you don't hear so much about it b/c those horrible comparisons have aged out of the CAPE 10, thus making it appear less frightening.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 26, 2019, 02:18:34 PM

Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,..... New record closing high..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 26, 2019, 02:41:38 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 26, 2019, 02:18:34 PM

Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,Ding,..... New record closing high..:)

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/26/stock-market-gdp-data-and-corporate-earnings-in-focus-on-wall-street.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/26/stock-market-gdp-data-and-corporate-earnings-in-focus-on-wall-street.html)

Yippee Skippee.  It sure is getting high on this big pile of money.  It was a long hard climb up here.  I think I'll relax in a bit for a while,.........a very long while.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 26, 2019, 02:44:25 PM

Yeah I'm a little surprised it made gains today after crap earnings from 3M and Intel.

But I'll take it..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 27, 2019, 04:56:38 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 26, 2019, 02:44:25 PM

Yeah I'm a little surprised it made gains today after crap earnings from 3M and Intel.

But I'll take it..:)

Think I heard yesterday though so far 76% of all earnings have beat estimates. That's still pretty darn solid!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 27, 2019, 11:51:08 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 27, 2019, 04:56:38 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 26, 2019, 02:44:25 PM

Yeah I'm a little surprised it made gains today after crap earnings from 3M and Intel.

But I'll take it..:)

Think I heard yesterday though so far 76% of all earnings have beat estimates. That's still pretty darn solid!

Yes a cautious sigh of relief after lowered expectations due to a slowing economy. I too have been hearing more and more that the upcoming recession might not happen till after 2020.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 27, 2019, 01:51:47 PM

There are definitely political reasons to keep it going until the election of 2020.  It's what the folks got to run on.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on April 27, 2019, 09:17:05 PM

We could be like Australia and avoid a recession for 20 years if the economy is managed properly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 27, 2019, 09:57:53 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on April 27, 2019, 09:17:05 PM

We could be like Australia and avoid a recession for 20 years if the economy is managed properly.

Hmmmmm - That almost sounds like a controlled economy from the top down.  The USSR used to manage their economy and it never really took off.  How could you do it?  How did the Aussies do it?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 28, 2019, 04:32:26 AM

Quote from: pecunia on April 27, 2019, 09:57:53 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on April 27, 2019, 09:17:05 PM

We could be like Australia and avoid a recession for 20 years if the economy is managed properly.

Hmmmmm - That almost sounds like a controlled economy from the top down.  The USSR used to manage their economy and it never really took off.  How could you do it?  How did the Aussies do it?

A fair bit of luck was involved (China boom consuming so much iron ore) and a few good decisions (floating dollar, removing tariffs etc). Also, keeping immigration fairly high also keeps the economy growing as all the new peeps need to consume too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 28, 2019, 10:23:56 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 23, 2019, 01:56:39 PM

I've been a winey pants lately.   Rode my bicycle 70 miles.  I'm much better now.  Butt is swollen a bit, but, I'm still better.

Rode my bike Friday and Saturday.   I circumnavigated Lake Ponchartrain.   I carried along my camping hammock and sleeping bag.  I finished up yesterday evening, it was 170 miles total, 100 of which was yesterday.  Longest ride of my life and I did it lugging camping gear on a rack.   I did it Mustacian style using my 19 year old mountain bike.  I will be buying a real touring bike, this was a test ride with what I have.  Maybe a more compact and lighter sleeping bag as well.  I have to work Monday, but on those two days of freedom, I was a bicyclist.  I'm sore today but reflecting back on those miles sweetens it some.  FIRE is coming.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 28, 2019, 12:26:04 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2019, 10:23:56 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 23, 2019, 01:56:39 PM

I've been a winey pants lately.   Rode my bicycle 70 miles.  I'm much better now.  Butt is swollen a bit, but, I'm still better.

Rode my bike Friday and Saturday.   I circumnavigated Lake Ponchartrain.   I carried along my camping hammock and sleeping bag.  I finished up yesterday evening, it was 170 miles total, 100 of which was yesterday.  Longest ride of my life and I did it lugging camping gear on a rack.   I did it Mustacian style using my 19 year old mountain bike.  I will be buying a real touring bike, this was a test ride with what I have.  Maybe a more compact and lighter sleeping bag as well.  I have to work Monday, but on those two days of freedom, I was a bicyclist.  I'm sore today but reflecting back on those miles sweetens it some.  FIRE is coming.

Even endorphins aren't free, but they may come with the good bonus of better health.  You are inspiring me to pull my bike out of the shed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on April 28, 2019, 02:37:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2019, 10:23:56 AM

Rode my bike Friday and Saturday.   I circumnavigated Lake Ponchartrain.   I carried along my camping hammock and sleeping bag.  I finished up yesterday evening, it was 170 miles total, 100 of which was yesterday.  Longest ride of my life and I did it lugging camping gear on a rack.   I did it Mustacian style using my 19 year old mountain bike.  I will be buying a real touring bike, this was a test ride with what I have.  Maybe a more compact and lighter sleeping bag as well.  I have to work Monday, but on those two days of freedom, I was a bicyclist.  I'm sore today but reflecting back on those miles sweetens it some.  FIRE is coming.

Very impressive.  Even in my 20s the most I ever did in one day was 60 miles.  I assume that was mostly flat terrain.  Not sure I could do that today even with optimal conditions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 28, 2019, 05:07:23 PM

Pretty flat.  Except New Orleans.   That's below sea level.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on April 30, 2019, 06:52:22 PM

Joining this thread as I left the 2m milestone behind for good. Our NW hit £2.15m today.
Although technically reporting in GBP and not USD, my FI number is £3.0m of which £2.0m in invested assets - so joint that race is a nice challenge for me.

Took us 8yrs to get to the first £1m, then another 4yrs to get to £2m; so hopefully 2-3yrs to get to £3m :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 30, 2019, 07:56:28 PM

Quote from: londonbanker on April 30, 2019, 06:52:22 PM

Joining this thread as I left the 2m milestone behind for good. Our NW hit £2.15m today.
Although technically reporting in GBP and not USD, my FI number is £3.0m of which £2.0m in invested assets - so joint that race is a nice challenge for me.

Took us 8yrs to get to the first £1m, then another 4yrs to get to £2m; so hopefully 2-3yrs to get to £3m :-)

Congrats! It took us similar amounts of time: around 9 years to the first $1m, about another 4 after than to $2m, and now we are working to get to $2.3 which is our newest magical FI number. I have no plans to get to $3M but won’t complain if it happens.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 30, 2019, 09:00:30 PM

Quote from: londonbanker on April 30, 2019, 06:52:22 PM

Joining this thread as I left the 2m milestone behind for good. Our NW hit £2.15m today.
Although technically reporting in GBP and not USD, my FI number is £3.0m of which £2.0m in invested assets - so joint that race is a nice challenge for me.

Took us 8yrs to get to the first £1m, then another 4yrs to get to £2m; so hopefully 2-3yrs to get to £3m :-)

So that puts you currently at about $2.8M.. Congratulations!

I was back in London last year (I was born in leyton E15). Knowing how expensive things are back there now I can see why you need 3 million quid!

Welcome aboard..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 01, 2019, 04:07:11 AM

Well done! Exflyboy!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bigchrisb on May 01, 2019, 12:10:36 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on April 28, 2019, 04:32:26 AM

Quote from: pecunia on April 27, 2019, 09:57:53 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on April 27, 2019, 09:17:05 PM

We could be like Australia and avoid a recession for 20 years if the economy is managed properly.

Hmmmmm - That almost sounds like a controlled economy from the top down.  The USSR used to manage their economy and it never really took off.  How could you do it?  How did the Aussies do it?

A fair bit of luck was involved (China boom consuming so much iron ore) and a few good decisions (floating dollar, removing tariffs etc). Also, keeping immigration fairly high also keeps the economy growing as all the new peeps need to consume too.

A fair bit of luck with two commodities booms and a generation long housing boom.  A lot of deregulation of industries, removal of tariffs, industrial relations reform and removal of pattern bargaining, floating the exchange rate to name a few were key, and often lost in today's political discourse.  Net migration is critical too - over the last three decades of growth net migration has averaged about 1.5% per year, about three times that of the USA or the UK.

We have also done a lot of it with debt fueled expansion - even with GDP growing continuously over the last three decades, household debt to GDP is now three times what it was in 1990.  Mostly spent on rampant residential real estate prices.

The last major economic reform undertaken here was the introduction of GST in 2000.  Since then, both sides of politics have done little on economic reform, while we have been lucky with several commodities booms and a debt fueled residential property boom keeping things running.  With the tailwind of those old reforms pretty much exhausted, and easier debt/monetary policy unlikely, my personal feeling is that Australia is headed towards some hard times.  With most working adults never having experienced a recession, some hard times are probably necessary to be able to implement unpopular reform policy.

I maintain a home country investment bias, but have been tilting further to international assets, and in particular limiting exposure to Australian residential real estate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 01, 2019, 03:46:06 PM

So work, for the first time in a long time is pissing me off.  The past week wasn't a good one.   Who's this guy?  Posting way back then?

Quote from: Bateaux on February 12, 2014, 11:16:49 AM

we crossed the 1mm mark last year and are completely debt free.   I plan to retire in 2018 with about 2 mm.  I dont know what we will do then.  Maybe cruise on a sailboat.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 01, 2019, 03:59:26 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 01, 2019, 03:46:06 PM

So work, for the first time in a long time is pissing me off.  The past week wasn't a good one.   Who's this guy?  Posting way back then?

Quote from: Bateaux on February 12, 2014, 11:16:49 AM

we crossed the 1mm mark last year and are completely debt free.   I plan to retire in 2018 with about 2 mm.  I dont know what we will do then.  Maybe cruise on a sailboat.

So why are you still at work then?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 01, 2019, 06:45:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2019, 03:59:26 PM

- SNIP -


So why are you still at work then?

That is a question many of us are pondering at frequent intervals.  For me, health care will be easier if I hang on until year's end.

Tick, tick, tick and I am selling off little pieces of my life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 01, 2019, 10:11:47 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 01, 2019, 06:45:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2019, 03:59:26 PM

- SNIP -


So why are you still at work then?

That is a question many of us are pondering at frequent intervals.  For me, health care will be easier if I hang on until year's end.

Tick, tick, tick and I am selling off little pieces of my life.

Yep, health insurance still keeps me there for now.  That and some home improvements I want to make.
What's amazing is the calculations just running simple numbers predicted.  That was five yeas ago and I'd just surpassed a million net worth.  I'd just started posting on MMM at the time.  I'd estimated somewhere 2 million net worth for 2018.  I now have twice the money that I had then.  Which is the money I'd predicted I'd have now.   The difference is how my brain perceived 2 million dollars then and now.  That me figured 2 million would be plenty.  That me probably was thinking, about all the chance circumstances that could wipe me out.  Why does this me still have doubts?  The calculations are the same.  FIRECalc give me a 100 percent prediction on retirement sucess, yet I'll be working night shift this weekend.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: One on May 01, 2019, 11:06:44 PM

Probably better to retire now. More time to exercise, less stress to prevent the heart attack.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: deborah on May 02, 2019, 03:06:04 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 01, 2019, 10:11:47 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 01, 2019, 06:45:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2019, 03:59:26 PM

- SNIP -


So why are you still at work then?

That is a question many of us are pondering at frequent intervals.  For me, health care will be easier if I hang on until year's end.

Tick, tick, tick and I am selling off little pieces of my life.

Yep, health insurance still keeps me there for now.  That and some home improvements I want to make.
What's amazing is the calculations just running simple numbers predicted.  That was five yeas ago and I'd just surpassed a million net worth.  I'd just started posting on MMM at the time.  I'd estimated somewhere 2 million net worth for 2018.  I now have twice the money that I had then.  Which is the money I'd predicted I'd have now.   The difference is how my brain perceived 2 million dollars then and now.  That me figured 2 million would be plenty.  That me probably was thinking, about all the chance circumstances that could wipe me out.  Why does this me still have doubts?  The calculations are the same.  FIRECalc give me a 100 percent prediction on retirement sucess, yet I'll be working night shift this weekend.

Just do it.

You have proved that you're pretty good at predicting outcomes.
You have proved that you can follow a financial plan, and not derail yourself.
You have proved that you're a saver rather than a spender.
You have also amassed enough that it's not going to be destroyed by pretty much any event.

What more do you actually need?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on May 02, 2019, 08:35:58 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2019, 03:59:26 PM

So why are you still at work then?

Everyone will have their own reasons.  For me, health insurance costs and college.  DW and I firmly believe in providing education for our sons and aside from Stafford loans pay the entire amount.  Currently, DS#1 will take some summer courses to finish his BSCivE and then enter state university for Masters because the specialty he's in requires it to directly enter jobs.  DS#2 graduates high school in June and starts community college with a general engineering major, or ECE with the plan to transfer to state university after 2 or so years. 

Meanwhile, I'll keep a box in my investments spreadsheet with "$ till 50X spending (not counting college)".  I'm $32k away from that goal now.  I expect that'll hit very soon, then I'll just change it to 60X.

Along the way, I'm going to spend some money too.  A roof needs to be replaced soon.  And I've taken up offroading with my very mustachian Jeep Wrangler (haha) and do plan to spend money slowly and carefully over this season on upgrades.  After the tuition bills for May are all paid, I'll look at what I've got left and probably buy a $189 front bumper.  June....maybe a winch.  Oh....and DS#2 will get his license so there's the matter of replacing a car.  Some people do spend their money.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on May 02, 2019, 09:14:27 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 01, 2019, 10:11:47 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2019, 03:59:26 PM

So why are you still at work then?

Yep, health insurance still keeps me there for now.  That and some home improvements I want to make.
What's amazing is the calculations just running simple numbers predicted.  That was five yeas ago and I'd just surpassed a million net worth.  I'd just started posting on MMM at the time.  I'd estimated somewhere 2 million net worth for 2018.  I now have twice the money that I had then.  Which is the money I'd predicted I'd have now.   The difference is how my brain perceived 2 million dollars then and now.  That me figured 2 million would be plenty.  That me probably was thinking, about all the chance circumstances that could wipe me out.  Why does this me still have doubts?  The calculations are the same.  FIRECalc give me a 100 percent prediction on retirement sucess, yet I'll be working night shift this weekend.

I will agree that you need to find your own reason.  As long as you understand the math and are deciding with all the facts to stay there, then who is to say you're wrong.  I'm sorta in the same boat with around $1Mil in my accounts, GF with just over $1Mil, and she has an ok pension too.  I am sticking it out as she would like me to get my pension in 3 years (I would too!) .  I may decide to pull the plug before then but for now I am using my FU money to allow me not to be pushed around on the job.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 02, 2019, 10:00:05 AM

Thanks for all the responses.  I value your opinions greatly.  I'd bet many of us are future-proofers.  When we make a decision or purchase we look at where that decision takes us years to come.  We spend lots of time in predictive thinking.  Some impulsive people may have such good instincts that they are already making profits, when were still calculating.  Time, patience and consistency are our strengths.   Our greatest risk is waiting too long, a little Fear of Missing Out, could do us some good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on May 02, 2019, 12:03:03 PM

A woman in my field and community recently fell sick very suddenly and passed away.  She was only a year older than me (fairly young).  If this were the last year of my life, I would not want to spend it working. 

ETA: I knew her only very slightly.  I'm young enough that this is the first time someone I know in my cohort has died so suddenly and unexpectedly (i.e., not because of an accident or long illness)--I'm not yet at the age when people start dying from heart attacks--and it was kind of a shock.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 02, 2019, 02:31:01 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 01, 2019, 10:11:47 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 01, 2019, 06:45:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2019, 03:59:26 PM

- SNIP -


So why are you still at work then?

That is a question many of us are pondering at frequent intervals.  For me, health care will be easier if I hang on until year's end.

Tick, tick, tick and I am selling off little pieces of my life.

Yep, health insurance still keeps me there for now.  That and some home improvements I want to make.
What's amazing is the calculations just running simple numbers predicted.  That was five yeas ago and I'd just surpassed a million net worth.  I'd just started posting on MMM at the time.  I'd estimated somewhere 2 million net worth for 2018.  I now have twice the money that I had then.  Which is the money I'd predicted I'd have now.   The difference is how my brain perceived 2 million dollars then and now.  That me figured 2 million would be plenty.  That me probably was thinking, about all the chance circumstances that could wipe me out.  Why does this me still have doubts?  The calculations are the same.  FIRECalc give me a 100 percent prediction on retirement sucess, yet I'll be working night shift this weekend.

What you say about $1m vs $2m and how the brain perceives it differently when it is a reality resonates with me. Back when I started on these forums I calculated that $1.6m was the magical number. That was based on the situation then which has since changed, but at the time $1.6 felt like a lot of riches. Today we are almost at $2.1 which feels like less than I imagined $1.6 would feel like. It is like looking up to the top of a mountain and the mountain looks really tall, until you get to the top and look down and decide that maybe it wasn’t tall after all. It gives me more appreciation for how people end up in a OMY scenario.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 02, 2019, 02:57:51 PM

I'm hardly one to talk, but I wasn't comfortable until well past 3MM.  Or maybe I'm not comfortable yet! Having just spent the last hour or so checking finances, I'd say I still fret.  I only decided that by any standards, this $$$ should be enough, very recently.  I just reworked my part time gig a couple of weeks ago, to say I'm really not planning on working.    I (sortof) felt felt financially free when our fistful of rental mortgages was paid off, and that just happened earlier this year.  We still have a high overhead with taxes, property taxes, health, vehicle and property insurance, college for 2 kids, vacations, etc.   I'm protective of the 'stache.  It took a lot of effort to get here.    The numbers say I'm ok, the statistics say I'm better than most,  but the emotions aren't so decisive.   DH has no such worries, but, OTOH, I'm the one who handles the finances and so the roller coaster ride is all mine. 

But for you, @Bateaux, if work sucks, definitely do something else.   You've put too much effort into getting here to have someone else ruin a perfectly wonderful day.  Quit the bad job and do something you enjoy, or nothing for a while.  You can coast for the summer or until 2020, and it will all be fine.  A little work never hurt anyone, and you can always get a job or a side gig, as you choose. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 02, 2019, 03:09:06 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 02, 2019, 02:31:01 PM

What you say about $1m vs $2m and how the brain perceives it differently when it is a reality resonates with me. Back when I started on these forums I calculated that $1.6m was the magical number. That was based on the situation then which has since changed, but at the time $1.6 felt like a lot of riches. Today we are almost at $2.1 which feels like less than I imagined $1.6 would feel like. It is like looking up to the top of a mountain and the mountain looks really tall, until you get to the top and look down and decide that maybe it wasn’t tall after all. It gives me more appreciation for how people end up in a OMY scenario.

Exactly! When I was (much) younger I once got a couple of grand in cash... IT-FELT-LIKE-SO-MUCH-MONEY!  Toss it the air with glee and watch it fall all over the room fun! Roll in it- roll in the dough!  It was BIG BUCKS!  But now, this big number just doesn't feel like as much as I thought it would. It actually doesn't really feel very different at all. Ok, well, a little different.   There are days when I think "how the heck did I get so rich?" But mostly I feel the same as I always did, with less financial worries.  I've never reached FU except on very small, somewhat meek scale, such as:  I won't work for someone who really aggravates me. 

Or perhaps for some people achieving these goals is more like you've climbed Mt. Whitney and Everest must be conquered! 

What's a "OMY scenario?"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 02, 2019, 03:21:59 PM

OMY= one more year

The urge to work just one more year after hitting FI for <fill in the blank reasons>

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 02, 2019, 06:31:15 PM

You all are an awesome support group.  Many thanks

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 02, 2019, 08:59:36 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 02, 2019, 03:09:06 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 02, 2019, 02:31:01 PM

What you say about $1m vs $2m and how the brain perceives it differently when it is a reality resonates with me. Back when I started on these forums I calculated that $1.6m was the magical number. That was based on the situation then which has since changed, but at the time $1.6 felt like a lot of riches. Today we are almost at $2.1 which feels like less than I imagined $1.6 would feel like. It is like looking up to the top of a mountain and the mountain looks really tall, until you get to the top and look down and decide that maybe it wasn’t tall after all. It gives me more appreciation for how people end up in a OMY scenario.

Exactly! When I was (much) younger I once got a couple of grand in cash... IT-FELT-LIKE-SO-MUCH-MONEY!  Toss it the air with glee and watch it fall all over the room fun! Roll in it- roll in the dough!  It was BIG BUCKS!  But now, this big number just doesn't feel like as much as I thought it would. It actually doesn't really feel very different at all. Ok, well, a little different.   There are days when I think "how the heck did I get so rich?" But mostly I feel the same as I always did, with less financial worries.  I've never reached FU except on very small, somewhat meek scale, such as:  I won't work for someone who really aggravates me. 

Or perhaps for some people achieving these goals is more like you've climbed Mt. Whitney and Everest must be conquered! 

Interesting. I wonder if the giant NW worth number is "so large" that we really can't connect with it in a way like you do with having a couple of thousand in cash.

I.e its really impractical to go and withdraw a couple of million and throw it around the living room (taxes for a start), so its just a silly number so its not meaningful in an emotional way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 03, 2019, 02:48:25 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 02, 2019, 08:59:36 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 02, 2019, 03:09:06 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 02, 2019, 02:31:01 PM

What you say about $1m vs $2m and how the brain perceives it differently when it is a reality resonates with me. Back when I started on these forums I calculated that $1.6m was the magical number. That was based on the situation then which has since changed, but at the time $1.6 felt like a lot of riches. Today we are almost at $2.1 which feels like less than I imagined $1.6 would feel like. It is like looking up to the top of a mountain and the mountain looks really tall, until you get to the top and look down and decide that maybe it wasn’t tall after all. It gives me more appreciation for how people end up in a OMY scenario.

Exactly! When I was (much) younger I once got a couple of grand in cash... IT-FELT-LIKE-SO-MUCH-MONEY!  Toss it the air with glee and watch it fall all over the room fun! Roll in it- roll in the dough!  It was BIG BUCKS!  But now, this big number just doesn't feel like as much as I thought it would. It actually doesn't really feel very different at all. Ok, well, a little different.   There are days when I think "how the heck did I get so rich?" But mostly I feel the same as I always did, with less financial worries.  I've never reached FU except on very small, somewhat meek scale, such as:  I won't work for someone who really aggravates me. 

Or perhaps for some people achieving these goals is more like you've climbed Mt. Whitney and Everest must be conquered! 

Interesting. I wonder if the giant NW worth number is "so large" that we really can't connect with it in a way like you do with having a couple of thousand in cash.

I.e its really impractical to go and withdraw a couple of million and throw it around the living room (taxes for a start), so its just a silly number so its not meaningful in an emotional way.

Throwing a couple three million dollars in the air would be fun and neat to see. In my case there really wasn't OMY syndrome from a stand point that If i didn't shut my business down not sure I would of made it another year as I was just tapped of energy and working to keep my employees going when my heart wasn't in it anymore I couldn't do it and my health and body was paying the price. I think too that's why even four years into be fire'd though I am hanging right around the 3M number with 2 in college and 2 to go I still at times feel "Oh I am good I got this " then the next day I might think " Maybe I should get a job part time" Usually I just settle in but like this week I got offered a really nice paying cash mulch job so I took it. So mentally I am all over the place but am getting better at accepting the fact being Fire'd is great and the right thing for me. Everyone is different and there is no right or wrong but if your miserable then get out. That I have never regretted other than missing some of my employees now and again though they gave me a lot of headaches!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 03, 2019, 03:32:02 AM

Chewbacca is dead. Peter Mayhew passed away at 74.

That is only 27 years older than I am now.

Meanwhile I spend so much energy worrying whether my stash will last 40 or even 50 years (DW is 42, so very well might live 50 more years). I suffer the common deep fear in being old, helpless and bankrupt. Reliant on the government to look after me.  No thank you.

But, it is very likely I won’t make it to 74, much less 40 more years (87) as I don’t look after myself at all well. I’ll probably die with millions in the bank, maybe even in my 50s. This is a very sobering thought

The next 10 years could very well be the last 10 years I can physically do anything I want, before my body rebels on me.

Today I can pretty much afford to do anything I want and If we had to cut our spending in half in 20 years time we could. It wouldn’t be ideal, but certainly possible.

And yet, I too keep working in a job that doesn’t really inspire me, and padding the stash. Just in case I live to 100 and want a golden coffin......

I really hope I find the balls to hand my resignation in come August and then really work on defining and chasing my dreams, and not just clocking in at 9am every morning.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on May 03, 2019, 04:19:28 AM

This thread got depressing real quick.

Sadly most will die with a fortune, and that's ok. Some trust fund baby will gladly spend it all on hookers and blow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 03, 2019, 04:34:08 AM

I’ve been lurking on this thread for awhile. I guess hoping to gain some insight or comfort from you all about why DH and I (both 41) are still working until we get to the $3M number. And depending on the situation with healthcare may continue until the kids are out of college. Which would put us probably closer to $4M unless we have another recession with stagnant ten year returns.
These last few posts really hit home to me. Especially Itchyfeets post. That is exactly the circle my brain does:
 -I probably won’t live to be 100 and I may not be able to do all the things I want after 60 so I better do it now!
 -but 50 years to fund is a lot!!! What if there is a recession and we have zero returns. What if I’m wrong about expenses for the kids? Or healthcare?
-But the kids are growing fast I’d really like to be home with them! And we are FI by most people’s standards! Our advisor says we are good to go. I should do it! Quit now!!
-But I make so much money and my job is pretty easy, with good people there! Why would I give that up?
-but I’m so tired all the time. And my kids are aging out of nannys and programs. I don’t want them to be latch key kids!
-but I’ve worked so hard to get where I am in my career!! Lots of folks would love to have my job.

And on and on it goes. The plan is for me to work through all this mentally and pull the trigger one year from now- May of 2020. DH will keep working until he feels ready to be done. I hope to try and start my own tax and accounting business and maybe adjunct a few accounting classes. Hopefully that will help me feel like I am still using my skills.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: snowdog on May 03, 2019, 07:03:34 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 01, 2019, 10:11:47 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 01, 2019, 06:45:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2019, 03:59:26 PM

- SNIP -


So why are you still at work then?

That is a question many of us are pondering at frequent intervals.  For me, health care will be easier if I hang on until year's end.

Tick, tick, tick and I am selling off little pieces of my life.

Yep, health insurance still keeps me there for now.  That and some home improvements I want to make.
What's amazing is the calculations just running simple numbers predicted.  That was five yeas ago and I'd just surpassed a million net worth.  I'd just started posting on MMM at the time.  I'd estimated somewhere 2 million net worth for 2018.  I now have twice the money that I had then.  Which is the money I'd predicted I'd have now.   The difference is how my brain perceived 2 million dollars then and now.  That me figured 2 million would be plenty.  That me probably was thinking, about all the chance circumstances that could wipe me out.  Why does this me still have doubts?  The calculations are the same.  FIRECalc give me a 100 percent prediction on retirement sucess, yet I'll be working night shift this weekend.

Yup, it never ends.  I was at $1.3M targeting $1.5M as my number, as I passed that I set $2M as the magic number, passed that and when I got to $2.3M I finally decided that it was time to pull the plug.  Then OMY turned to OMW and an endless loop of doom scenarios.  The reasons to bail were compelling as I travel 100% as I commute out of state every week, I no longer enjoy my job, it's extremely stressful and I'm 57.5.  To offset this I make really good money and walking away was a huge hurdle to overcome.  Well I finally did it, last day is set in June and now the pile is at $2.6M.  While if feels great to have finally crossed the abyss, I still think occasionally if I should have stuck around until I amassed $3.0M.  However, now that I know this moving the goal posts never ends, I'm at peace with where I'm at.       

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 03, 2019, 01:13:15 PM

Maybe this will help.. Who knows.

$3million .. with zero gains over say the next 10 years.

1) Currently with an aggressive say 80/20 portfolio this will gain a dividend of 2% or $60,000 per year.. $60k per year just for owning stocks.

2) If we get completely flat returns.. Well $3M assuming a spend of $50k/year will last 60 years!

Sometimes you really have to conclude that the risk of dropping dead of a stress induced heart attack is much greater than than the risk of spending all your money.

I'm preaching to myself here as much as anyone else.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 03, 2019, 02:00:02 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 03, 2019, 01:13:15 PM

Maybe this will help.. Who knows.

$3million .. with zero gains over say the next 10 years.

1) Currently with an aggressive say 80/20 portfolio this will gain a dividend of 2% or $60,000 per year.. $60k per year just for owning stocks.

2) If we get completely flat returns.. Well $3M assuming a spend of $50k/year will last 60 years!

Sometimes you really have to conclude that the risk of dropping dead of a stress induced heart attack is much greater than than the risk of spending all your money.

I'm preaching to myself here as much as anyone else.

There is always that................ but lets not go there. Today was a good day in the markets! we have that for now

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: snowdog on May 03, 2019, 02:06:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 03, 2019, 01:13:15 PM

Maybe this will help.. Who knows.

$3million .. with zero gains over say the next 10 years.

1) Currently with an aggressive say 80/20 portfolio this will gain a dividend of 2% or $60,000 per year.. $60k per year just for owning stocks.

2) If we get completely flat returns.. Well $3M assuming a spend of $50k/year will last 60 years!

Sometimes you really have to conclude that the risk of dropping dead of a stress induced heart attack is much greater than than the risk of spending all your money.

I'm preaching to myself here as much as anyone else.

Exflyboy, I totally agree.  The math is what finally got me over the finish line.  That and my pending expiration date.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on May 03, 2019, 02:27:46 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on May 03, 2019, 04:19:28 AM

This thread got depressing real quick.

Sadly most will die with a fortune, and that's ok. Some trust fund baby will gladly spend it all on hookers and blow.

I think you meant "Bananas and Blow:" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gd87JmkAkE

Our friend Tom Gnoza, of Millionaire's Club and Uncle Dirt Nap  covered this song, unfortunately, don't have a Youtube to go with it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on May 03, 2019, 02:32:59 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on May 03, 2019, 04:19:28 AM

This thread got depressing real quick..

I was going to say the same thing... What people forget sometimes, is that there is always the ability to do a little of consulting, or PT work somewhere along the way if your stash diminishes too quickly to your comfort as you get in your 50s and you think you might overshoot you expect life expectancy :-)

Doesn’t have to always be an all or nothing. Going back to low part time work after a 5-10years isn’t a disgrace. If anything, I bet you are thankful you got to enjoy that amazing sabbatical when you were still young and healthy

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on May 03, 2019, 02:35:52 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 03, 2019, 01:13:15 PM

Maybe this will help.. Who knows.

$3million .. with zero gains over say the next 10 years.

1) Currently with an aggressive say 80/20 portfolio this will gain a dividend of 2% or $60,000 per year.. $60k per year just for owning stocks.

2) If we get completely flat returns.. Well $3M assuming a spend of $50k/year will last 60 years!

Sometimes you really have to conclude that the risk of dropping dead of a stress induced heart attack is much greater than than the risk of spending all your money.

I'm preaching to myself here as much as anyone else.

Well - that is assuming that inflation is zero... as the discounted rate of that 60k withdrawal will have dented the value of your capital by a significant margin in real terms over 10yrs

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on May 03, 2019, 02:46:04 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2019, 04:34:08 AM

I’ve been lurking on this thread for awhile. I guess hoping to gain some insight or comfort from you all about why DH and I (both 41) are still working until we get to the $3M number. And depending on the situation with healthcare may continue until the kids are out of college. Which would put us probably closer to $4M unless we have another recession with stagnant ten year returns.
These last few posts really hit home to me. Especially Itchyfeets post. That is exactly the circle my brain does:
 -I probably won’t live to be 100 and I may not be able to do all the things I want after 60 so I better do it now!
 -but 50 years to fund is a lot!!! What if there is a recession and we have zero returns. What if I’m wrong about expenses for the kids? Or healthcare?
-But the kids are growing fast I’d really like to be home with them! And we are FI by most people’s standards! Our advisor says we are good to go. I should do it! Quit now!!
-But I make so much money and my job is pretty easy, with good people there! Why would I give that up?
-but I’m so tired all the time. And my kids are aging out of nannys and programs. I don’t want them to be latch key kids!
-but I’ve worked so hard to get where I am in my career!! Lots of folks would love to have my job.

And on and on it goes. The plan is for me to work through all this mentally and pull the trigger one year from now- May of 2020. DH will keep working until he feels ready to be done. I hope to try and start my own tax and accounting business and maybe adjunct a few accounting classes. Hopefully that will help me feel like I am still using my skills.

Beancounter - my DW and I are exactly in the same situation. Although we are a little younger than you guys, we keeping asking ourselves the exact same questions.

We both really like our jobs but want to spend more time w our children while they are still young and still love being around us (3 and 5 yo). However we realise than we make more in one year than what they are likely to make in the first 10years of their professional life. It’s a bit absurd but we feel guilty thinking about how much of a difference this could make to their life, as they could pursue whatever career they wanted based on passion, without worrying about the financial implications.

So we are torn between pulling the trigger and giving as much of our time as possible while it matters most, which I am sure they will cherish for the rest of their life, or keeping at it for a few more years.

I am not sure those life decisions are easy for anyone!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 03, 2019, 03:07:40 PM

Quote from: londonbanker on May 03, 2019, 02:46:04 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2019, 04:34:08 AM

I’ve been lurking on this thread for awhile. I guess hoping to gain some insight or comfort from you all about why DH and I (both 41) are still working until we get to the $3M number. And depending on the situation with healthcare may continue until the kids are out of college. Which would put us probably closer to $4M unless we have another recession with stagnant ten year returns.
These last few posts really hit home to me. Especially Itchyfeets post. That is exactly the circle my brain does:
 -I probably won’t live to be 100 and I may not be able to do all the things I want after 60 so I better do it now!
 -but 50 years to fund is a lot!!! What if there is a recession and we have zero returns. What if I’m wrong about expenses for the kids? Or healthcare?
-But the kids are growing fast I’d really like to be home with them! And we are FI by most people’s standards! Our advisor says we are good to go. I should do it! Quit now!!
-But I make so much money and my job is pretty easy, with good people there! Why would I give that up?
-but I’m so tired all the time. And my kids are aging out of nannys and programs. I don’t want them to be latch key kids!
-but I’ve worked so hard to get where I am in my career!! Lots of folks would love to have my job.

And on and on it goes. The plan is for me to work through all this mentally and pull the trigger one year from now- May of 2020. DH will keep working until he feels ready to be done. I hope to try and start my own tax and accounting business and maybe adjunct a few accounting classes. Hopefully that will help me feel like I am still using my skills.

Beancounter - my DW and I are exactly in the same situation. Although we are a little younger than you guys, we keeping asking ourselves the exact same questions.

We both really like our jobs but want to spend more time w our children while they are still young and still love being around us (3 and 5 yo). However we realise than we make more in one year than what they are likely to make in the first 10years of their professional life. It’s a bit absurd but we feel guilty thinking about how much of a difference this could make to their life, as they could pursue whatever career they wanted based on passion, without worrying about the financial implications.

So we are torn between pulling the trigger and giving as much of our time as possible while it matters most, which I am sure they will cherish for the rest of their life, or keeping at it for a few more years.

I am not sure those life decisions are easy for anyone!

Not to be snide but maybe as you said It doesn't have to be all or nothing? or could one of you work and one stay home.  Having 4 kids of my own making the decision to be home with them and doing more with them was the best decision I ever made. But I understand its not an easy one and not everyone can do it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: meatgrinder on May 03, 2019, 03:11:57 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2019, 04:34:08 AM

I’ve been lurking on this thread for awhile. I guess hoping to gain some insight or comfort from you all about why DH and I (both 41) are still working until we get to the $3M number. And depending on the situation with healthcare may continue until the kids are out of college. Which would put us probably closer to $4M unless we have another recession with stagnant ten year returns.
These last few posts really hit home to me. Especially Itchyfeets post. That is exactly the circle my brain does:
 -I probably won’t live to be 100 and I may not be able to do all the things I want after 60 so I better do it now!
 -but 50 years to fund is a lot!!! What if there is a recession and we have zero returns. What if I’m wrong about expenses for the kids? Or healthcare?
-But the kids are growing fast I’d really like to be home with them! And we are FI by most people’s standards! Our advisor says we are good to go. I should do it! Quit now!!
-But I make so much money and my job is pretty easy, with good people there! Why would I give that up?
-but I’m so tired all the time. And my kids are aging out of nannys and programs. I don’t want them to be latch key kids!
-but I’ve worked so hard to get where I am in my career!! Lots of folks would love to have my job.

And on and on it goes. The plan is for me to work through all this mentally and pull the trigger one year from now- May of 2020. DH will keep working until he feels ready to be done. I hope to try and start my own tax and accounting business and maybe adjunct a few accounting classes. Hopefully that will help me feel like I am still using my skills.

My own personal regret minimization framework is that when I'm 100, I'll look back at these early retirement years 40-65 and have no regrets that I gave up an extra $XXM to be with my loved ones and do what I want to do rather than under the florescent lights.

I too have a cushy well paying job with friendly coworkers and all the benefits, but now I have the luxury of asking the question "Would I be working this job if it paid $0"?  and for most of us, myself included, I think the answer is no.

SIAP Click this link and find out how much more likely you'll be dead before you're broke. ]https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/]

Edit- fixed link
 (https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 03, 2019, 07:04:44 PM

I heard on the radio today that we have had the best employment figures since 1969.

That is before some of you young-uns was born. (I wasn't very old.)

So with very good employment and the stock market hitting record highs, couldn't you consider going out soon?

I am.  Less than a year to ensure adequate health care.  Firecalc tells me the stash is there. 

By the way - We went to the moon in 1969 during that politically incorrect non computer non cell phone time.  In case they don't have time to teach this in school.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 04, 2019, 04:25:47 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 03, 2019, 07:04:44 PM

So with very good employment and the stock market hitting record highs, couldn't you consider going out soon?

Maybe the top is in..... 🤪

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 04, 2019, 06:39:34 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 03, 2019, 03:07:40 PM

Quote from: londonbanker on May 03, 2019, 02:46:04 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2019, 04:34:08 AM

I’ve been lurking on this thread for awhile. I guess hoping to gain some insight or comfort from you all about why DH and I (both 41) are still working until we get to the $3M number. And depending on the situation with healthcare may continue until the kids are out of college. Which would put us probably closer to $4M unless we have another recession with stagnant ten year returns.
These last few posts really hit home to me. Especially Itchyfeets post. That is exactly the circle my brain does:
 -I probably won’t live to be 100 and I may not be able to do all the things I want after 60 so I better do it now!
 -but 50 years to fund is a lot!!! What if there is a recession and we have zero returns. What if I’m wrong about expenses for the kids? Or healthcare?
-But the kids are growing fast I’d really like to be home with them! And we are FI by most people’s standards! Our advisor says we are good to go. I should do it! Quit now!!
-But I make so much money and my job is pretty easy, with good people there! Why would I give that up?
-but I’m so tired all the time. And my kids are aging out of nannys and programs. I don’t want them to be latch key kids!
-but I’ve worked so hard to get where I am in my career!! Lots of folks would love to have my job.

And on and on it goes. The plan is for me to work through all this mentally and pull the trigger one year from now- May of 2020. DH will keep working until he feels ready to be done. I hope to try and start my own tax and accounting business and maybe adjunct a few accounting classes. Hopefully that will help me feel like I am still using my skills.

Beancounter - my DW and I are exactly in the same situation. Although we are a little younger than you guys, we keeping asking ourselves the exact same questions.

We both really like our jobs but want to spend more time w our children while they are still young and still love being around us (3 and 5 yo). However we realise than we make more in one year than what they are likely to make in the first 10years of their professional life. It’s a bit absurd but we feel guilty thinking about how much of a difference this could make to their life, as they could pursue whatever career they wanted based on passion, without worrying about the financial implications.

So we are torn between pulling the trigger and giving as much of our time as possible while it matters most, which I am sure they will cherish for the rest of their life, or keeping at it for a few more years.

I am not sure those life decisions are easy for anyone!

Not to be snide but maybe as you said It doesn't have to be all or nothing? or could one of you work and one stay home.  Having 4 kids of my own making the decision to be home with them and doing more with them was the best decision I ever made. But I understand its not an easy one and not everyone can do it.

Yes. Part time or gig work for me is part of the plan after May 2020. This really wasn’t an option prior to my kids being school aged because we simply couldn’t find affordable, quality part time child care. We had excellent full time care (at a high cost but my full time salary is on the high end), and this is why I continued to work. Now the kids are in school and the stash has grown to $2.3M so I think I can go ahead and leave. DH will stay working because he is not ready yet and we would like to see what happens with healthcare. His job also provides tuition remission for our kids at an ok state university.
Despite ALL THAT it still seems risky to me. With both of us working we have well over $200k in income so we can handle anything that comes our way. We are not ver mustachian. The kids go to private school, take music lessons and do sports. We have a decent sized suburban home (live there for the neighborhood for our kids) and belong to a neighborhood swim club, play golf etc. We also travel a lot as a family of four (leaving for Yellowstone in June!) These are all things that we (particularly DH) are not willing to give up. Plus I do feel like I’ve worked really hard to get where I am at work. Hard to walk away from that.
It will be a big change for us come next spring. I really hope I can handle it. I put in my application to be an adjunct accounting instructor yesterday. I’m really hoping I get a call for fall as I think that will help me feel good about the transition. I know I will make very little as an adjunct, but I see it as a way to give back and keep my skills fresh. I also really want to start a small tax business. I want to be more available to my boys but I do still want them to see me working in some capacity.
Sorry- this is still a lot of me working through this emotionally.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 04, 2019, 09:11:51 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 04, 2019, 06:39:34 AM

<snip>
Despite ALL THAT it still seems risky to me. With both of us working we have well over $200k in income so we can handle anything that comes our way. We are not ver mustachian. The kids go to private school, take music lessons and do sports. We have a decent sized suburban home (live there for the neighborhood for our kids) and belong to a neighborhood swim club, play golf etc. We also travel a lot as a family of four (leaving for Yellowstone in June!) These are all things that we (particularly DH) are not willing to give up. Plus I do feel like I’ve worked really hard to get where I am at work. Hard to walk away from that.
It will be a big change for us come next spring. I really hope I can handle it. I put in my application to be an adjunct accounting instructor yesterday. I’m really hoping I get a call for fall as I think that will help me feel good about the transition. I know I will make very little as an adjunct, but I see it as a way to give back and keep my skills fresh. I also really want to start a small tax business. I want to be more available to my boys but I do still want them to see me working in some capacity.
Sorry- this is still a lot of me working through this emotionally.

Welcome to the thread.  I'm glad that you joined us and are sharing your thoughts.  Many of us can relate. These are tough decisions. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 04, 2019, 05:25:57 PM

Probably we need to meditate more to help deal with the anxiety of money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 04, 2019, 06:29:04 PM

Having enough to say hasta la vista baby to the job not only relieves anxiety on its own but allows you the time to meditate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on May 06, 2019, 06:51:40 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 03, 2019, 07:04:44 PM

I heard on the radio today that we have had the best employment figures since 1969.

That is before some of you young-uns was born. (I wasn't very old.)

So with very good employment and the stock market hitting record highs, couldn't you consider going out soon?

I am.  Less than a year to ensure adequate health care.  Firecalc tells me the stash is there. 

By the way - We went to the moon in 1969 during that politically incorrect non computer non cell phone time.  In case they don't have time to teach this in school.

But employment figures are skewed.  Part time workers who can't get decent full time work are "working".  Jobs in 1969 could be held for life and regularly were with a decent pension at the end of the working times.  Manufacturing jobs, while boring, soul sucking and menial paid good money with pensions at the end of the years.  College was affordable for pretty much everyone and going to the doctor meant paying in full what we pay in co-pays today. 

(I was in Jr. High School and playing guitar at block parties in 1969)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 06, 2019, 06:47:35 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on May 06, 2019, 06:51:40 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 03, 2019, 07:04:44 PM

I heard on the radio today that we have had the best employment figures since 1969.

That is before some of you young-uns was born. (I wasn't very old.)

So with very good employment and the stock market hitting record highs, couldn't you consider going out soon?

I am.  Less than a year to ensure adequate health care.  Firecalc tells me the stash is there. 

By the way - We went to the moon in 1969 during that politically incorrect non computer non cell phone time.  In case they don't have time to teach this in school.

But employment figures are skewed.  Part time workers who can't get decent full time work are "working".  Jobs in 1969 could be held for life and regularly were with a decent pension at the end of the working times.  Manufacturing jobs, while boring, soul sucking and menial paid good money with pensions at the end of the years.  College was affordable for pretty much everyone and going to the doctor meant paying in full what we pay in co-pays today. 

(I was in Jr. High School and playing guitar at block parties in 1969)

Yeh - Good music in 1969.  Two years after the Summer of Love.

Well - I guess things changed about 1980 after the Reagan revolution.

And,.....maybe the Reagan revolution is finally over and the good times will be rolling again!

Laissez les bons temps rouler !

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 07, 2019, 03:12:44 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 06, 2019, 06:47:35 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on May 06, 2019, 06:51:40 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 03, 2019, 07:04:44 PM

I heard on the radio today that we have had the best employment figures since 1969.

That is before some of you young-uns was born. (I wasn't very old.)

So with very good employment and the stock market hitting record highs, couldn't you consider going out soon?

I am.  Less than a year to ensure adequate health care.  Firecalc tells me the stash is there. 

By the way - We went to the moon in 1969 during that politically incorrect non computer non cell phone time.  In case they don't have time to teach this in school.

But employment figures are skewed.  Part time workers who can't get decent full time work are "working".  Jobs in 1969 could be held for life and regularly were with a decent pension at the end of the working times.  Manufacturing jobs, while boring, soul sucking and menial paid good money with pensions at the end of the years.  College was affordable for pretty much everyone and going to the doctor meant paying in full what we pay in co-pays today. 

(I was in Jr. High School and playing guitar at block parties in 1969)

Yeh - Good music in 1969.  Two years after the Summer of Love.

Well - I guess things changed about 1980 after the Reagan revolution.

And,.....maybe the Reagan revolution is finally over and the good times will be rolling again!

Laissez les bons temps rouler !

Top 10 of 1969 , even then music was so diversified. And look at the Rolling stones and still going at it!


1. Sugar, Sugar - The Archies
2. Aquarius / Let the Sunshine In - The Fifth Dimension
3. I Can't Get Next to You - The Temptations
4. Honky Tonk Women - The Rolling Stones
5. Everyday People - Sly and The Family Stone
6. Dizzy - Tommy Roe
7. Hot Fun In the Summertime - Sly and The Family Stone
8. (It Looks Like) I'll Never Fall In Love Again - Tom Jones
9. Build Me Up Buttercup - The Foundations
10. Crimson and Clover - Tommy James and The Shondells

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 07, 2019, 05:41:24 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 07, 2019, 03:12:44 AM

Top 10 of 1969 , even then music was so diversified. And look at the Rolling stones and still going at it!

1. Sugar, Sugar - The Archies
2. Aquarius / Let the Sunshine In - The Fifth Dimension
3. I Can't Get Next to You - The Temptations
4. Honky Tonk Women - The Rolling Stones
5. Everyday People - Sly and The Family Stone
6. Dizzy - Tommy Roe
7. Hot Fun In the Summertime - Sly and The Family Stone
8. (It Looks Like) I'll Never Fall In Love Again - Tom Jones
9. Build Me Up Buttercup - The Foundations
10. Crimson and Clover - Tommy James and The Shondells

I was 11 in 1969. I can sing all of these songs. What I wouldn't give now for a fresh supply of those young, sticky brain cells...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on May 07, 2019, 08:29:05 AM

.....and don't forget Proud Mary by Creedence.  Every garage band played it because....well....even a mediocre guitar player could get through it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 07, 2019, 08:32:24 AM

I spend a lot of time with younger friends these days.  It keeps you younger, if in nothing but attitude.  I certainly have older friends, but most of them seem old in body and mind.  I'm planning a September 14er peak bagging trip for this year.  The younger ones think that's cool, the older ones think I'm nuts.  Weekend before last I decided to put my camping gear on my bicycle and traveled 170 miles in two days.  I was run off the road, horns blown at me, rocks thrown from tires struck my body.  I plan to do much more road touring in the future, I'm just getting started. You can die or be injured seeking Type 2 fun.  But, you'll die eventually whether you pushed the limits or not.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on May 07, 2019, 10:33:45 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 02, 2019, 10:00:05 AM

Thanks for all the responses.  I value your opinions greatly.  I'd bet many of us are future-proofers.  When we make a decision or purchase we look at where that decision takes us years to come.  We spend lots of time in predictive thinking.  Some impulsive people may have such good instincts that they are already making profits, when were still calculating.  Time, patience and consistency are our strengths.   Our greatest risk is waiting too long, a little Fear of Missing Out, could do us some good.

I get this....I am the excel spreadsheet formula that either (a) runs a thousand iterations or (b) results in a circular logic error....really need to get somewhere in between....haha.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 07, 2019, 10:43:50 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 07, 2019, 08:32:24 AM

I spend a lot of time with younger friends these days.  It keeps you younger, if in nothing but attitude.  I certainly have older friends, but most of them seem old in body and mind.  I'm planning a September 14er peak bagging trip for this year.  The younger ones think that's cool, the older ones think I'm nuts.  Weekend before last I decided to put my camping gear on my bicycle and traveled 170 miles in two days.  I was run off the road, horns blown at me, rocks thrown from tires struck my body.  I plan to do much more road touring in the future, I'm just getting started. You can die or be injured seeking Type 2 fun.  But, you'll die eventually whether you pushed the limits or not.

I really like this Bateaux. Makes me think I need to be ok with risk to really be able to LIVE.
May 2020. That’s my date. I’m going to have an epic summer with my kids to celebrate- no more nanny.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 07, 2019, 11:00:01 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on May 07, 2019, 08:29:05 AM

.....and don't forget Proud Mary by Creedence Clearwater Revival.  Every garage band played it because....well....even a mediocre guitar player could get through it.

FTFY

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 08, 2019, 03:38:43 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 07, 2019, 08:32:24 AM

I spend a lot of time with younger friends these days.  It keeps you younger, if in nothing but attitude.  I certainly have older friends, but most of them seem old in body and mind.  I'm planning a September 14er peak bagging trip for this year.  The younger ones think that's cool, the older ones think I'm nuts.  Weekend before last I decided to put my camping gear on my bicycle and traveled 170 miles in two days.  I was run off the road, horns blown at me, rocks thrown from tires struck my body.  I plan to do much more road touring in the future, I'm just getting started. You can die or be injured seeking Type 2 fun.  But, you'll die eventually whether you pushed the limits or not.

Same. This is y hopefully when we do move it will be near a college town. One we want to take advantage of all that they offer from watching sports to entertainment and 2) to be around younger people.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on May 08, 2019, 06:33:19 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 07, 2019, 08:32:24 AM

I spend a lot of time with younger friends these days.  It keeps you younger, if in nothing but attitude.  I certainly have older friends, but most of them seem old in body and mind.  I'm planning a September 14er peak bagging trip for this year.  The younger ones think that's cool, the older ones think I'm nuts.  Weekend before last I decided to put my camping gear on my bicycle and traveled 170 miles in two days.  I was run off the road, horns blown at me, rocks thrown from tires struck my body.  I plan to do much more road touring in the future, I'm just getting started. You can die or be injured seeking Type 2 fun.  But, you'll die eventually whether you pushed the limits or not.

Maybe consider switching to mountain biking.  When I was younger, I was always on my bike including competitive races in UBLA (remember that name?) which became USCF.  I'd ride from Worcester, MA to Boston to see my girl friend.  These days, I stay off the road.  Too many LOLing teenage girls in Wrangler Rubicons focusing on their phones.  None of that on the trails and I can manage logs that fall across it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 08, 2019, 08:46:12 AM

I love my spinning classes

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 08, 2019, 10:31:43 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on May 08, 2019, 06:33:19 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 07, 2019, 08:32:24 AM

I spend a lot of time with younger friends these days.  It keeps you younger, if in nothing but attitude.  I certainly have older friends, but most of them seem old in body and mind.  I'm planning a September 14er peak bagging trip for this year.  The younger ones think that's cool, the older ones think I'm nuts.  Weekend before last I decided to put my camping gear on my bicycle and traveled 170 miles in two days.  I was run off the road, horns blown at me, rocks thrown from tires struck my body.  I plan to do much more road touring in the future, I'm just getting started. You can die or be injured seeking Type 2 fun.  But, you'll die eventually whether you pushed the limits or not.

Maybe consider switching to mountain biking.  When I was younger, I was always on my bike including competitive races in UBLA (remember that name?) which became USCF.  I'd ride from Worcester, MA to Boston to see my girl friend.  These days, I stay off the road.  Too many LOLing teenage girls in Wrangler Rubicons focusing on their phones.  None of that on the trails and I can manage logs that fall across it.

Went mountain biking Tuesday.  Only did 10 miles but still an ass kicker.  Dreaming of the Tour Divide and I'm researching the right bike right now.   My 26 inch tires hard tail with weak suspension won't cut it.  I'm going to be getting a 29er plus modern bike soon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 10, 2019, 03:18:31 AM

Well with the last couple days of losses I am back on the wrong side of 3M. Was nice while it lasted. Oh well.............

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 10, 2019, 06:48:59 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 10, 2019, 03:18:31 AM

Well with the last couple days of losses I am back on the wrong side of 3M. Was nice while it lasted. Oh well.............

Yep, it sucks.  Still well north of 2MM, but the trade war crap has cost me around 50K on paper.   Temporary problem for those of us here.  I lost more than the average US worker makes in a year this week.  Me, I'm drinking a cup of coffee and have more anxiety over getting my driver's license renewed at the DMV today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 10, 2019, 09:58:28 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 10, 2019, 06:48:59 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 10, 2019, 03:18:31 AM

Well with the last couple days of losses I am back on the wrong side of 3M. Was nice while it lasted. Oh well.............

Yep, it sucks.  Still well north of 2MM, but the trade war crap has cost me around 50K on paper.   Temporary problem for those of us here.  I lost more than the average US worker makes in a year this week.  Me, I'm drinking a cup of coffee and have more anxiety over getting my driver's license renewed at the DMV today.

We all are very fortunate and it is good to be reminded of it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 10, 2019, 11:02:59 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 10, 2019, 09:58:28 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 10, 2019, 06:48:59 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 10, 2019, 03:18:31 AM

Well with the last couple days of losses I am back on the wrong side of 3M. Was nice while it lasted. Oh well.............

Yep, it sucks.  Still well north of 2MM, but the trade war crap has cost me around 50K on paper.   Temporary problem for those of us here.  I lost more than the average US worker makes in a year this week.  Me, I'm drinking a cup of coffee and have more anxiety over getting my driver's license renewed at the DMV today.

We all are very fortunate and it is good to be reminded of it.

Yes.. To have enough money so none of us have to work another day in our lives.. Thats pretty stinking awesome!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 10, 2019, 12:16:08 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 10, 2019, 11:02:59 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 10, 2019, 09:58:28 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 10, 2019, 06:48:59 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 10, 2019, 03:18:31 AM

Well with the last couple days of losses I am back on the wrong side of 3M. Was nice while it lasted. Oh well.............

Yep, it sucks.  Still well north of 2MM, but the trade war crap has cost me around 50K on paper.   Temporary problem for those of us here.  I lost more than the average US worker makes in a year this week.  Me, I'm drinking a cup of coffee and have more anxiety over getting my driver's license renewed at the DMV today.

We all are very fortunate and it is good to be reminded of it.

Yes.. To have enough money so none of us have to work another day in our lives.. Thats pretty stinking awesome!

Amen to that!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 13, 2019, 02:00:19 PM

Today is a trip to say the least! Taking it in the shorts but luckily I have been planning for a drop like this and much bigger.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 13, 2019, 02:26:13 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 13, 2019, 02:00:19 PM

Today is a trip to say the least! Taking it in the shorts but luckily I have been planning for a drop like this and much bigger.

Well we're only about 4.5% from the all time high. Scary as it might be (is) this is still within the normal yearly range of pullbacks. Didn't we hit -20% on Christmas Eve?

I figure that when I see my cat worried thats when I'll have a full melt down panic..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on May 13, 2019, 02:54:13 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 13, 2019, 02:26:13 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 13, 2019, 02:00:19 PM

Today is a trip to say the least! Taking it in the shorts but luckily I have been planning for a drop like this and much bigger.

Well we're only about 4.5% from the all time high. Scary as it might be (is) this is still within the normal yearly range of pullbacks. Didn't we hit -20% on Christmas Eve?

I figure that when I see my cat worried thats when I'll have a full melt down panic..:)

Agree. Less than 5% is not even a correction, just a blip. I am actually secretly hoping for a 15-20% dip (more if affinity) as a way to move forward. There is just so much bad news not priced in that it makes me nervous to go past 3000 without a proper pressure release.

Oh wait - but I still have another 46years to live (according to my life expectancy age group) so why do I care about any correction today?? Irrelevant over that period of time really.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 13, 2019, 03:51:51 PM

 got 41 years according to this calculator... Can I buy some from you?..:)


https://www.blueprintincome.com/tools/life-expectancy-calculator-how-long-will-i-live/results?id=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&lc_r=y

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on May 13, 2019, 04:03:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 13, 2019, 03:51:51 PM

got 41 years according to this calculator... Can I buy some from you?..:)


https://www.blueprintincome.com/tools/life-expectancy-calculator-how-long-will-i-live/results?id=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&lc_r=y

I do not buy in that calculator - I have the feeling it is designed to convince you that you need a huge annuity to take you to 90+ yo. I ran my stats and it says I will live to see 98 - please make that not happen, pleeeesase!

Just for fun, I re-ran that model, added 80lbs to my weight, started smoking, maxed out the nbr of drinks per week, stopped all kind of physical exercise (I still fully intend on keeping the bedroom kind) and guess what - I still get to live to 88yo... so why bother then hey?!?! I think losing 10yr or life expectancy to indulge in most sins isn’t a bad price to pay lol !!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on May 13, 2019, 04:07:50 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 13, 2019, 02:00:19 PM

Today is a trip to say the least! Taking it in the shorts but luckily I have been planning for a drop like this and much bigger.

any day i lose $30K is not a particularly great day...

also, i know it's a really bad day when i make the statement "ahh, that's why i'm 30% fixed income"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 13, 2019, 06:00:29 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on May 13, 2019, 04:07:50 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 13, 2019, 02:00:19 PM

Today is a trip to say the least! Taking it in the shorts but luckily I have been planning for a drop like this and much bigger.

any day i lose $30K is not a particularly great day...

also, i know it's a really bad day when i make the statement "ahh, that's why i'm 30% fixed income"

Nice... I'm at 25% but would move that down if we get a juicy pullback..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 13, 2019, 06:35:11 PM

To heck with this 4 percent thing.  I ran the calculator and should have been dead 2 years ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 13, 2019, 08:29:30 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 13, 2019, 06:35:11 PM

To heck with this 4 percent thing.  I ran the calculator and should have been dead 2 years ago.

Yeah, might want to up that a notch..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 14, 2019, 01:53:41 AM

I missed an awesome bike ride with my New Orleans riding friends tonight.  They put down 30 miles in some of the nicest weather possible.   I'm working tonight and sulking over my losses today.  My riding crew are younger guys, like twenty years younger. I struggle to keep up.  They have different struggles.   The amount I lost today could change their lives.  Me, I'm pissed I missed the ride.  One guy almost bailed out on the ride because he couldn't spare the fare for the Mississippi River ferry.  The other guys covered him like good friends will.  I wanted to paypal him a hundred dollars so bad.  I don't want to change our relationship though.  If I were there, I'd no doubt spotted him the $4 fare.  They know I have money and a good paying job.   So.far that hasn't caused any strange vibes.  There is a high degree of respect and appreciation within our small group.  I suffer a bit of imposter syndrome but that's all me. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 14, 2019, 02:52:38 AM

40k drop but I didn't jump off the ledge. Another dip like that time to put a little cash to work.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 14, 2019, 04:55:36 AM

Drop? What drop? Not looking, don't care. What an unexpected luxury!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on May 14, 2019, 06:54:20 AM

Heck....my bond funds went up over $1500.  :D  I tend to always look at the bright side of my investments.  Stocks went down?  Huh?  I didn't look at those.  Why would I?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 14, 2019, 01:22:53 PM

From the tippy top I'm down about 60K.  Still in the club however and that's all that matters.  Two million is my lifetime floor level.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on May 14, 2019, 03:52:03 PM

Ugh,  We have been trying to break 2.7M since last August.  We keep getting almost there, then.....

First world problem!

Had my annual physical yesterday, the doctor told me I have a 10% chance of having a heart attack within the next ten years.  Sobering.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 14, 2019, 04:13:19 PM

Wow, that is sobering. I presume you can do stuff to help make sure the 90% chance of not having one wins out?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on May 14, 2019, 04:20:59 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 14, 2019, 04:13:19 PM

Wow, that is sobering. I presume you can do stuff to help make sure the 90% chance of not having one wins out?

Well the biggest factors are age and sex.  Not much I can do about either of those.  I am pretty much already doing all the other good stuff.

One problem with a healthy lifestyle is that it is hard to improve upon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on May 14, 2019, 04:24:46 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 14, 2019, 04:13:19 PM

Wow, that is sobering. I presume you can do stuff to help make sure the 90% chance of not having one wins out?

I might be missing the point of probability but 90% wins out 9 times out of 10 :-)
I assume you meant taking steps to move that 90% upwards ?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 14, 2019, 04:29:21 PM

Quote from: londonbanker on May 14, 2019, 04:24:46 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 14, 2019, 04:13:19 PM

Wow, that is sobering. I presume you can do stuff to help make sure the 90% chance of not having one wins out?

I might be missing the point of probability but 90% wins out 9 times out of 10 :-)
I assume you meant taking steps to move that 90% upwards ?

Correct.
Or that when you roll the die, your single roll ends up in the 90% bucket and not the 10% bucket.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 14, 2019, 09:02:04 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on May 14, 2019, 03:52:03 PM

Ugh,  We have been trying to break 2.7M since last August.  We keep getting almost there, then.....

First world problem!

Had my annual physical yesterday, the doctor told me I have a 10% chance of having a heart attack within the next ten years.  Sobering.

I bet your Doc was probably talking generally.. I.e 10% of all males of a certain age (your's) who are otherwise healthy will likely have a heart attack in the next 10 years.

Guess what?.. A certain percentage will get cancer, bubonic plague and HIV too!

Look on the bright side.. with $2.7M, at least you will be able to afford a US based heart attack..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 15, 2019, 03:10:54 PM

Well what the heck... The market was supposed to go down 15% according to the talking heads.. I was going to roll some bonds to stock!

Now we're only 3.2% away from an all time high

This makes so sense.. Gosh my life is HARD!...;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on May 15, 2019, 04:18:36 PM

I agree, the “fake” correction is terribly disappointing- I am still sitting on the best part of $1m in cash that’s slowly getting invested through average investing... I was hoping to get a big lump in!! Not this time I guess

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 15, 2019, 07:23:34 PM

Be careful what you wish for.  There are secondary effects to major disruptions to the stock market.  People lose their homes.  People lose their jobs.  The spiral is downward.  It's just a stack of cards that a minor puff could topple.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 16, 2019, 03:35:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 15, 2019, 03:10:54 PM

Well what the heck... The market was supposed to go down 15% according to the talking heads.. I was going to roll some bonds to stock!

Now we're only 3.2% away from an all time high

This makes so sense.. Gosh my life is HARD!...;)

My sentiments exactly except I wanted to put some cash to work. Think today could be telling if this is just a head fake .

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 16, 2019, 09:59:07 AM

I attended a function/ party a few weeks ago hosted by a private equity fund. I was invited by a friend.

Nothing is free in this world and my “friend” gave my phone number to the sales guy from the fund.

Today, I took their call and agreed to meet for coffee next week to be polite. They fed and watered my wife and I (loads of booze), so I will let them pitch to me as payment for an awesome night out.

I look forward to applying a bit of heat to their sales pitch next week when I meet them.

Give me a few questions I can ask to make them squirm a little...

I don’t want to disclose the fund, but at this stage there seems to be a lack of transparency with their investments.

Also, I google stalked the partner that I boozed with at the function and note he has a nice collection of exotic cars. That seems like a lot of money going in the fund’s employees pockets, rather than in their investors pockets. Maybe we’ll discuss cars first 😝

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on May 16, 2019, 11:54:36 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on May 16, 2019, 09:59:07 AM

..snip....
I look forward to applying a bit of heat to their sales pitch next week when I meet them.

Give me a few questions I can ask to make them squirm a little...Snip......

Also, I google stalked the partner that I boozed with at the function and note he has a nice collection of exotic cars. That seems like a lot of money going in the fund’s employees pockets, rather than in their investors pockets. Maybe we’ll discuss cars first 😝

Where are all the customer's 'exotic cars?, is a good lead-in.
Where Are the Customers’ Yachts by Fred Schwed ~ 1940, for reference.

Nice party, how much did it cost, and why should MY money be used for such in the future.

Endgame/nuclear option: Please describe how your organization differs from Bernie Madoff's.

Disclaimer: My wife tore up an invitation to a "financial" dinner/ talk/ sales event, as both of us realized that I would just be a raging a-hole.  YMMV.

How did Madoff get so far as to become a pun, " he Madoff with my money".  Almost as bad as the Bobbit story.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 16, 2019, 12:08:36 PM

Simple...

1.. What are the total fees charged to invest with you.. Both management fees and hidden fees buried within the fund.

2.. What has been the average annual returns over the last 30 years AFTER fees have been taken out.

Compare that to an S&P 500 ETF of a little over 10% per annum then be prepared to walk. !0 years of outsized returns is not enough of a track record.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 16, 2019, 12:38:49 PM

Sorry XFB, but MikeBike hit the nail on the head already.  Like when you walk in to a bank's lobby - You want me to park money here, so why do you spend so much money on such nice furniture and flooring?  I'd be more interested to see a regular bank that gives me a dividend or extra fractional percent of yield on my deposits...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 16, 2019, 12:42:31 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 16, 2019, 12:38:49 PM

Sorry XFB, but MikeBike hit the nail on the head already.  Like when you walk in to a bank's lobby - You want me to park money here, so why do you spend so much money on such nice furniture and flooring?  I'd be more interested to see a regular bank that gives me a dividend or extra fractional percent of yield on my deposits...

Well he's just smarter than me..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on May 16, 2019, 12:56:09 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 15, 2019, 07:23:34 PM

Be careful what you wish for.  There are secondary effects to major disruptions to the stock market.  People lose their homes.  People lose their jobs.  The spiral is downward.  It's just a stack of cards that a minor puff could topple.

Yes I hear that and not that I am hoping people lose their homes etc... but a 25% correction isn’t abnormal to be fair, it’s just that people have no memories of past events; they happen regularly and they are amazing opportunities to invest.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 16, 2019, 12:58:12 PM

Quote from: londonbanker on May 16, 2019, 12:56:09 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 15, 2019, 07:23:34 PM

Be careful what you wish for.  There are secondary effects to major disruptions to the stock market.  People lose their homes.  People lose their jobs.  The spiral is downward.  It's just a stack of cards that a minor puff could topple.

Yes I hear that and not that I am hoping people lose their homes etc... but a 25% correction isn’t abnormal to be fair, it’s just that people have no memories of past events; they happen regularly and they are amazing opportunities to invest.

^^^This!^^^

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on May 16, 2019, 01:06:18 PM

Post fees - 9% of fund managers consistently beat the market over a 5 year period, less than 4% over a 10years period and less than 1% beat it over a 20yrs period...
Not that it is down to luck necessarily, but ask yourself that question - is it your lucky day and is that guy in the magic 1% ?
I bet that if he was, he wouldn’t need to throw lavish parties to recruit clients to fund his lifestyle :-)

In any event, even if he was that 1% guy - I prefer the probability of being 99% right and investing on a passive ETF replicating the market, than putting it all on the “red” w a 1% chance to win.

And I would also sleep better at night !!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 16, 2019, 01:35:41 PM

So, in summary of the ongoing conversation, what pisses me off about people that get really rich, is how they get even richer by fleecing others.  Where does that 'enough' switch flip on for some and is just stuck in 'off' for others?  Because it actually gets easier, when you can throw a little money around, to suck in the suckers that want what you can easily afford.  You have confidence and nothing to lose, but they are practically salivating to get advice...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on May 16, 2019, 02:28:23 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 16, 2019, 01:35:41 PM

So, in summary of the ongoing conversation, what pisses me off about people that get really rich, is how they get even richer by fleecing others.  Where does that 'enough' switch flip on for some and is just stuck in 'off' for others?  Because it actually gets easier, when you can throw a little money around, to suck in the suckers that want what you can easily afford.  You have confidence and nothing to lose, but they are practically salivating to get advice...

I am sure you meant “some” people. Not all people who get rich fleece others

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bwall on May 16, 2019, 03:42:17 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on May 16, 2019, 09:59:07 AM

Today, I took their call and agreed to meet for coffee next week to be polite. They fed and watered my wife and I (loads of booze), so I will let them pitch to me as payment for an awesome night out.

I look forward to applying a bit of heat to their sales pitch next week when I meet them.

Give me a few questions I can ask to make them squirm a little...

I don’t want to disclose the fund, but at this stage there seems to be a lack of transparency with their investments.

Easy questions to lead in: Can they give you copies of their annual letter to investors for the past 3-5 years? And b/c the markets have been up since 2009 and these past letters will all be genuinely rosy, can they also provide the annual letter(s) for 2008 & 2009, for reference? If they existed back then, that is.

What about their exit strategy? Time horizon for their investments?

How do they avoid strategies like this?:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/morgan-stanley-got-rich-clients-015432893.html
TL:DR: Morgan Stanley got their uber wealthy clients into Uber at $48.77/per share, pre IPO. IPO'd at $45, closed today at $43 after going down to $37 or so last week.

What do they base their investment criteria on? Fancy resumes? Nice office space? Complicated sounding words? Something else?

And, if you're a closet leftist:
How do they give back to society?
How do they show their interest in 'the public good'?
Talk only about 'stakeholders' instead of 'shareholders'; stakeholders include all company employees, the community, environment, etc, not just those who own stock. They'll notice the difference in terminology.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bwall on May 16, 2019, 03:44:54 PM

BTW: I've never officially introduced myself to the group. I've been stalking for awhile, never wanted to post much or even out myself on a forum as being qualified as a member of this group.

It's been all so fast, still hasn't sunk in yet. But then, it might never ever sink in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 16, 2019, 04:01:41 PM

Quote from: bwall on May 16, 2019, 03:44:54 PM

BTW: I've never officially introduced myself to the group. I've been stalking for awhile, never wanted to post much or even out myself on a forum as being qualified as a member of this group.

It's been all so fast, still hasn't sunk in yet. But then, it might never ever sink in.

Welcome.. I've been here for a while and honestly its never sunk in for me.. I just look dispassionately at this insanely huge number and wonder who that $number really refers to.. Cus it CAN'T be me as I didn't do hardly anything for it.

But I guess thats the point right?..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 16, 2019, 09:32:36 PM

Quote from: londonbanker on May 16, 2019, 02:28:23 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 16, 2019, 01:35:41 PM

So, in summary of the ongoing conversation, what pisses me off about people that get really rich, is how they get even richer by fleecing others.  Where does that 'enough' switch flip on for some and is just stuck in 'off' for others?  Because it actually gets easier, when you can throw a little money around, to suck in the suckers that want what you can easily afford.  You have confidence and nothing to lose, but they are practically salivating to get advice...

I am sure you meant “some” people. Not all people who get rich fleece others

Yeah, just kind of a rant about the people moving up on the Forbes 500 list.  I'm certainly not talking about us little peons :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 16, 2019, 11:17:38 PM

Quote from: bwall on May 16, 2019, 03:44:54 PM

BTW: I've never officially introduced myself to the group. I've been stalking for awhile, never wanted to post much or even out myself on a forum as being qualified as a member of this group.

It's been all so fast, still hasn't sunk in yet. But then, it might never ever sink in.

Welcome, Bwall.  We've got a fun group here.  No need to lurk- feel free to jump in anytime. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 17, 2019, 02:50:33 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 16, 2019, 12:58:12 PM

Quote from: londonbanker on May 16, 2019, 12:56:09 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 15, 2019, 07:23:34 PM

Be careful what you wish for.  There are secondary effects to major disruptions to the stock market.  People lose their homes.  People lose their jobs.  The spiral is downward.  It's just a stack of cards that a minor puff could topple.

Yes I hear that and not that I am hoping people lose their homes etc... but a 25% correction isn’t abnormal to be fair, it’s just that people have no memories of past events; they happen regularly and they are amazing opportunities to invest.

^^^This!^^^

So True! 10 years into this we have a whole new group of investors. With all the homes going up and people buying trucks again like crazy despite fuel prices on the rise its like reliving that aspect of 2008,9. But there still seems to be plenty of strength to this market. I will be interested with the 3 day run back up if people take profits for the weekend or if it sits kind of idle. Political news can change all that but just fundamentally speaking idle or slightly up would be a good sign in my opinion. But again so much of this market is moving so much on Politcal yahoo.  Is what it is but there are moves to make no matter what she does.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 17, 2019, 08:48:49 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on May 16, 2019, 09:59:07 AM

Give me a few questions I can ask to make them squirm a little...

I'd want to know that the custodian of the account is separate from the equity manager. I'd be worried about a Ponzi scheme.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 17, 2019, 09:15:25 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on May 17, 2019, 08:48:49 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on May 16, 2019, 09:59:07 AM

Give me a few questions I can ask to make them squirm a little...

I'd want to know that the custodian of the account is separate from the equity manager. I'd be worried about a Ponzi scheme.

I’m not worried because I won’t be investing. I am perfectly happy with broad market ETFs. I don’t feel I need additional diversity through PE.... amd certainly not this particular fund.

But, I want to learn more so I will meet with them and grill them. For instance, their fund is based in A Caribbean tax haven. I imagine this comes with a lack of investor protections re: what they can say to investors and what they have to report. I’ll be keen to hear their side on this.

I am sure there is plenty to learn... maybe a little about Ferraris.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 17, 2019, 09:35:12 PM

Is this your idea of entertainment? I’m not sure why you are spending the time if you have no intention of investing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: RWD on May 17, 2019, 09:53:48 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 17, 2019, 09:35:12 PM

Is this your idea of entertainment? I’m not sure why you are spending the time if you have no intention of investing.

^^^  Agreed. Why bother wasting the time of everyone involved?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 17, 2019, 09:56:15 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 17, 2019, 09:35:12 PM

Is this your idea of entertainment? I’m not sure why you are spending the time if you have no intention of investing.

1. I figure I might learn something.

2. I accepted the hospitality of these guys so feel I should at least give them the courtesy of listening to their pitch. I did tell them I didn’t think their product was for me, and yet they still wanted to meet.

3. And, a bit left of field, In my work capacity I have a company that needs some additional equity to finance potential growth over the next 5 years that might be attractive to PE. I don’t think it’s a great fit for their fund, but I’ll float the idea to see if there is any appetite.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 17, 2019, 10:09:16 PM

I definitely think it's worth finding out where the con is.  Maybe it's a Ponzi scheme, maybe the lack of investor protections means the fees are unheard of insane, maybe it's just the usual con that these private equity funds take 20% of the gains. It's definitely worth understanding.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 18, 2019, 10:44:30 AM

Conversation with a coworker.   He went to see a Northwest Mutual financial planner.   A recently retired coworker refered him to the planner.  The retired guy said the planner told him to quit working immediately, in an almost insulting tone.  Basically called him an idiot for working too late in life, he's in his 50s.  The coworker also in his 50s, who recently visited the planner was told pretty much the same thing.   They are both recommending I talk to the planner for a free consultation. Both guys have about one million liquid and 500k in real estate.  I've always planned to manage my own money, but may still talk to Northwest Mutual.   Even if the planner calls me an idiot, I'm going for late 2020 as an end date.   
Are planners getting onboard with FIRE?  Maybe they are just trying to rack up more accounts to manage.  Calling middle aged one-millionaires idiots for not retiring could be a great tactic to sign them up.  If that's the case, I'll toy and fuck with this guy.  I'm going to walk in presenting myself as a dumb assed blue collar worker.  One who just happens to have enough stash to make a financial planner salivate for that 1% fee.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 18, 2019, 06:25:46 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 18, 2019, 10:44:30 AM

Conversation with a coworker.   He went to see a Northwest Mutual financial planner.   A recently retired coworker refered him to the planner.  The retired guy said the planner told him to quit working immediately, in an almost insulting tone.  Basically called him an idiot for working too late in life, he's in his 50s.  The coworker also in his 50s, who recently visited the planner was told pretty much the same thing.   They are both recommending I talk to the planner for a free consultation. Both guys have about one million liquid and 500k in real estate.  I've always planned to manage my own money, but may still talk to Northwest Mutual.   Even if the planner calls me an idiot, I'm going for late 2020 as an end date.   
Are planners getting onboard with FIRE?  Maybe they are just trying to rack up more accounts to manage.  Calling middle aged one-millionaires idiots for not retiring could be a great tactic to sign them up.  If that's the case, I'll toy and fuck with this guy.  I'm going to walk in presenting myself as a dumb assed blue collar worker.  One who just happens to have enough stash to make a financial planner salivate for that 1% fee.

I don't think I'd give my business to anyone who would call me an idiot.  That shows a degree of arrogance.  In addition, there are a lot of blue collar workers who have big stashes and it's not from being dumb assed.  Bidding on jobs and knowing the rules of the game takes savvy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 19, 2019, 08:58:06 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 18, 2019, 06:25:46 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 18, 2019, 10:44:30 AM

Conversation with a coworker.   He went to see a Northwest Mutual financial planner.   A recently retired coworker refered him to the planner.  The retired guy said the planner told him to quit working immediately, in an almost insulting tone.  Basically called him an idiot for working too late in life, he's in his 50s.  The coworker also in his 50s, who recently visited the planner was told pretty much the same thing.   They are both recommending I talk to the planner for a free consultation. Both guys have about one million liquid and 500k in real estate.  I've always planned to manage my own money, but may still talk to Northwest Mutual.   Even if the planner calls me an idiot, I'm going for late 2020 as an end date.   
Are planners getting onboard with FIRE?  Maybe they are just trying to rack up more accounts to manage.  Calling middle aged one-millionaires idiots for not retiring could be a great tactic to sign them up.  If that's the case, I'll toy and fuck with this guy.  I'm going to walk in presenting myself as a dumb assed blue collar worker.  One who just happens to have enough stash to make a financial planner salivate for that 1% fee.

I don't think I'd give my business to anyone who would call me an idiot.  That shows a degree of arrogance.  In addition, there are a lot of blue collar workers who have big stashes and it's not from being dumb assed.  Bidding on jobs and knowing the rules of the game takes savvy.

Meh, you're hearing it third hand, who knows what was actually said?     

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 19, 2019, 01:27:38 PM

Having caught up with this thread, I feel compelled to get off the sidelines and say that I'm firmly in this group :-) I hadn't looked at my net worth a while and when I finally added up the the various accounts, I had to pinch myself. Turns out we have over $2M in just liquid assets alone apart from 401k, pension and fully paid off house (no other debts).  My wife intends to work as long as possible since she still enjoys her work as a senior manager in her company - so healthcare is covered for the near future. Accordingly, I have added myself to the class of 2020 - if I can even last that long!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 19, 2019, 02:39:23 PM

So, what are we hoping for next week (or so)?  Up or down? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 19, 2019, 04:32:49 PM

Quote from: Dicey on May 19, 2019, 08:58:06 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 18, 2019, 06:25:46 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 18, 2019, 10:44:30 AM

Conversation with a coworker.   He went to see a Northwest Mutual financial planner.   A recently retired coworker refered him to the planner.  The retired guy said the planner told him to quit working immediately, in an almost insulting tone.  Basically called him an idiot for working too late in life, he's in his 50s.  The coworker also in his 50s, who recently visited the planner was told pretty much the same thing.   They are both recommending I talk to the planner for a free consultation. Both guys have about one million liquid and 500k in real estate.  I've always planned to manage my own money, but may still talk to Northwest Mutual.   Even if the planner calls me an idiot, I'm going for late 2020 as an end date.   
Are planners getting onboard with FIRE?  Maybe they are just trying to rack up more accounts to manage.  Calling middle aged one-millionaires idiots for not retiring could be a great tactic to sign them up.  If that's the case, I'll toy and fuck with this guy.  I'm going to walk in presenting myself as a dumb assed blue collar worker.  One who just happens to have enough stash to make a financial planner salivate for that 1% fee.

I don't think I'd give my business to anyone who would call me an idiot.  That shows a degree of arrogance.  In addition, there are a lot of blue collar workers who have big stashes and it's not from being dumb assed.  Bidding on jobs and knowing the rules of the game takes savvy.

Meh, you're hearing it third hand, who knows what was actually said?     

No doubt Dicey.  You'd be an idiot is lesser an insult than, you're an idiot.  The message is however, FIRE NOW!  You've got enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 19, 2019, 07:21:03 PM

Well,.......Two million without considering the 401K and your health care is covered.  I'll bet that would bring it up to 2-1/2 million.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikbQPldhPY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikbQPldhPY)

This Spring seems particularly beautiful.  I'll bet it will be a good Summer and Fall.  To have your days free to enjoy the sunshine.  To wait until 2020 and one of the best Summers and Autumns of your life may be gone.  It's about 7 months until the end of the year.  It's about 7 months until 2020.  Seven months is time enough for a lot of dreams to come true.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 20, 2019, 02:40:00 AM

Quote from: lhamo on May 19, 2019, 05:27:14 PM

Um, WHY?

Unless you have some ridiculous spending requirements, with $2mill liquid PLUS 401k, pension and paid off house you are FIREd with probably a 1-2% SWR max once your SO finally quits working.

You can give notice tomorrow if you want to.  If you don't, then the reasons are not financial.

Good point :-)

• I'm still getting used to the idea of early retirement. Until about the middle of last year, I was mostly enjoying my job in tech and getting very well paid for it. After a re-org at the end of 2018, I'm still getting paid very well but was forced to take on some really uninteresting work as we had nobody else to do it.
• Until a few months ago, it had never occurred to me that I didn't need to work until 67. By chance, I found the /r/financialindependence subreddit and have discovered the FIRE community. I am realizing that my wife and I are already financially independent.
• I recently got Your Money or Your Life  and How to Retire Happy Wild and Free and am going through them. Both of these books and blogs like MMM have been tremendously helpful.
• There are a couple of home improvements that that would make post retirement life a lot nicer - it just feels better to do this while I'm still working

This is mostly a matter of mental adjustment and I'm most of the way there. Very likely, I'll be done by the end of the year but I have given myself until the middle of next year to be on the safe side.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 20, 2019, 09:41:24 AM

Quote from: lhamo on May 20, 2019, 07:43:36 AM

Obviously it's your choice.  But I'm just gonna put this out there, as it is a big part of why I FIREd at 46:

My dad had tons of plans for what he was going to do when he hit his ER age (55, due to pension rules).  He died suddenly of a massive heart attack at age 52.

You have plenty of money to pay for your home renovations.  Just sayin'.....

I hear you - its going to happen alright :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 20, 2019, 10:28:11 AM

I know I'm not supposed to pay attention, but since I am very close to pulling the plug and we are in the peak (or one of) times of spending- kids are driving a lot of cost, it freaks me out that we've lost $50k since the beginning of May. Ugh

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 20, 2019, 11:25:27 AM

Quote from: lhamo on May 20, 2019, 11:13:51 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 20, 2019, 10:28:11 AM

I know I'm not supposed to pay attention, but since I am very close to pulling the plug and we are in the peak (or one of) times of spending- kids are driving a lot of cost, it freaks me out that we've lost $50k since the beginning of May. Ugh

Do you have an immediate need to cash out some investments?  If not, then you haven't really "lost" anything.  If the market is making you nervous, then it is ok to pile up cash for awhile -- you can either live on it for 2-3 years, or wait for the market to drop further and take advantage of the buying opportunity.

Good point. We've got about 4% in cash currently. I expect while DH is still working and the kids are still at home we'll need to draw down $50k a year from investments, so we've got 2 years of that in a money market. I'm on my OMY by the end of that I should have added at least another $50k in cash.
The idea of going to one income while we are still spending so much is just really scary but the desire to be home with the kids for the next 10 years is greater than the anxiety. I think.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 20, 2019, 12:00:51 PM

Quote from: lhamo on May 19, 2019, 05:27:14 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 19, 2019, 01:27:38 PM

Having caught up with this thread, I feel compelled to get off the sidelines and say that I'm firmly in this group :-) I hadn't looked at my net worth a while and when I finally added up the the various accounts, I had to pinch myself. Turns out we have over $2M in just liquid assets alone apart from 401k, pension and fully paid off house (no other debts).  My wife intends to work as long as possible since she still enjoys her work as a senior manager in her company - so healthcare is covered for the near future. Accordingly, I have added myself to the class of 2020 - if I can even last that long!

Um, WHY?

Unless you have some ridiculous spending requirements, with $2mill liquid PLUS 401k, pension and paid off house you are FIREd with probably a 1-2% SWR max once your SO finally quits working.

You can give notice tomorrow if you want to.  If you don't, then the reasons are not financial.

Ahh yes the curse of the 1 to 2% WR!.. Ask me how I know about this..

Its funny but when I sort of quit (or didn't) 5 years ago I wasn't REALLY sure (like I hadn't emotionally bought into the idea) that we were completely FI.

I realise now that as time goes on we have a ridiculously large amount of money, i.e our pensions and just the after tax dividends alone will cover our highest spending year so far which included a significant house remodel spend and a 6 week thrash around Europe, a trip to Hawaii and eating out twice a week, every week.

It sounds like you have more $$ than we do!! I think you are more than done financially speaking.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 20, 2019, 01:25:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 20, 2019, 12:00:51 PM

Ahh yes the curse of the 1 to 2% WR!.. Ask me how I know about this..

Its funny but when I sort of quit (or didn't) 5 years ago I was REALLY sure (like I hadn't emotionally bought into the idea) that we were completely FI.

I realise now that as time goes on we have a ridiculously large amount of money, i.e our pensions and just the after tax dividends alone will cover our highest spending year so far which included a significant house remodel spend and a 6 week thrash around Europe, a trip to Hawaii and eating out twice a week, every week.

It sounds like you have more $$ than we do!! I think you are more than done financially speaking.

Heh - you must be reading my mind :-)

As you may have gathered from my other postings on this forum, I am a super tech nerd as my daughters will attest. I have crunched the numbers and I know I'm done financially. The emotions have not caught up with the intellect. Give it a couple of months to settle in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 20, 2019, 07:38:53 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 20, 2019, 01:25:44 PM

- SNIP -

Heh - you must be reading my mind :-)

As you may have gathered from my other postings on this forum, I am a super tech nerd as my daughters will attest. I have crunched the numbers and I know I'm done financially. The emotions have not caught up with the intellect. Give it a couple of months to settle in.

The beautiful Summer will be half over then.  It can never be recaptured.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: deborah on May 21, 2019, 12:42:23 AM

It DOES take time to be convinced that the figures might be right - when they apply to you. It also takes time to work out how you will retire, what you need to do before you leave work, and what you’ll do in retirement. It’s reasonable to take a year to go through these things. Even if, like me, retirement looks nothing like you thought it would.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 21, 2019, 01:23:48 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 20, 2019, 01:25:44 PM

As you may have gathered from my other postings on this forum, I am a super tech nerd as my daughters will attest. I have crunched the numbers and I know I'm done financially. The emotions have not caught up with the intellect. Give it a couple of months to settle in.

Indeed, as they say, there is safety in numbers :)  For those of us that get there early, FI becomes the easy part and ER (especially the taking of the leap to quit the job early part) becomes the challenge.  For me, it has been a transition to a better job and a relaxed attitude toward being employed.  Nothing wrong with the shift toward ER taking a while, we all have our own comfort level on life transitions and getting comfortable, just don't let yourself be miserable at work or let work come before the things in your life that will be important and lasting - like finding hobbies and passions, mental and physical health, and family.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 21, 2019, 02:57:40 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 20, 2019, 07:38:53 PM

The beautiful Summer will be half over then.  It can never be recaptured.

I absolutely agree with your sentiment,  Sed fugit interea, fugit inreparabile tempus

However my idea of summer fun is to sit in my cool home office in my basement working on math problems :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 21, 2019, 03:48:58 PM

I had lunch with an old college friend who has been a hedge fund manager on Wall Street now for over 20 years. I told him that I was planning to quit soon and his eyes lit up. Apparently, he has also been thinking of quitting too. I asked him the same question that I was asked here a few days ago: "Why are you still working?".

His answer was simple - he has no idea what else he could be doing :-) Mind you, I estimate that his net worth is probably well over $50M.

Incidentally, I added up the NW for our household and it comes to a bit over $5M - so that puts us firmly in the "beyond". And yet, we don't feel especially wealthy. I realize now that this is probably because many of the people we know likely have NW in the 8 figure NW range. So even a 7 figure NW doesn't feel particularly noteworthy in comparison. Neither my wife nor I have expensive hobbies or desire luxuries - I drive a Prius and my wife has a Camry. We tend to hold on to cars for at least 15 years. All the things that really bring me happiness are relatively inexpensive.

I have to say that this forum has been invaluable in getting my thoughts straightened out. The feeling of inadequacy is slowly fading.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 21, 2019, 04:11:31 PM

Cool.. Yup money is not the reason you're working.. If it is you got serious problems..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 21, 2019, 08:26:34 PM

Right now I'm jealous of you rich people that actually like to work.

I am actually confused too.  There are soooo many fun things you could do with that money.  I wouldn't be sitting in that dark room doing math problems. 

Oh well - to each their own.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 21, 2019, 08:48:58 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 21, 2019, 08:26:34 PM

Right now I'm jealous of you rich people that actually like to work.

I am actually confused too.  There are soooo many fun things you could do with that money.  I wouldn't be sitting in that dark room doing math problems. 

Oh well - to each their own.

2sk22 makes a good point though. Work itself can be fun. The most fun I ever had was after I was FI.. Got sent all over the world and paid for every hour while sat on the airplane.

The corporate BS was completely irrelevant and I loved every minute of it.

Eventually the company decided they could do without me and I went back to being RE'd. A year later they called me again but couldn't give me enough $$ to make it worth it to me.. so we parted ways.. It was fine by me either way..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 22, 2019, 02:47:04 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 21, 2019, 08:26:34 PM

Right now I'm jealous of you rich people that actually like to work.

This needs a little clarification :-)

I like programming computers. Right from when I wrote my first computer program in 1980
and have always enjoyed the actual activity of programming.

But I no longer like working. In fact, I hardly ever get to do much actual programming at work any more.
Mostly work seems to consist of attending meetings :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 23, 2019, 02:42:30 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 22, 2019, 02:47:04 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 21, 2019, 08:26:34 PM

Right now I'm jealous of you rich people that actually like to work.

This needs a little clarification :-)

I like programming computers. Right from when I wrote my first computer program in 1980
and have always enjoyed the actual activity of programming.

But I no longer like working. In fact, I hardly ever get to do much actual programming at work any more.
Mostly work seems to consist of attending meetings :-)

Oh the good ole days of meetings! Remembering having meetings and setting up the next meetings! You have to get out when you feel comfortable to do so BUT you also need to step out of your comfort zone. Like they say it takes awhile to adjust and its different for everyone. Heck I Fired a little over 4 years ago and I still am adjusting but I'd rather be adjusting than working and its less and less each day. Maybe I should write a book the twelve steps of being fire'd?!?!? hmmmmmm. Actually though I look back and wonder how I ever looked and 2sk22 I know how it is to do remodeling in Fire. I have put 70k into my house since I have fire'd and just finish redoing the entire outside of my home yesterday which was 19k of it. Brought it out of the 70's into the modern day Craftsman style home and its very rewarding. With what you have stashed and your wife still working etc,, you are more than fine. Heck I have two kids at home and two in college that are home right now. Take your time but get to it sooner than later or you'll fall into that one more year trap!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 23, 2019, 08:15:30 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 23, 2019, 02:42:30 AM

Oh the good ole days of meetings! Remembering having meetings and setting up the next meetings! You have to get out when you feel comfortable to do so BUT you also need to step out of your comfort zone. Like they say it takes awhile to adjust and its different for everyone. Heck I Fired a little over 4 years ago and I still am adjusting but I'd rather be adjusting than working and its less and less each day. Maybe I should write a book the twelve steps of being fire'd?!?!? hmmmmmm. Actually though I look back and wonder how I ever looked and 2sk22 I know how it is to do remodeling in Fire. I have put 70k into my house since I have fire'd and just finish redoing the entire outside of my home yesterday which was 19k of it. Brought it out of the 70's into the modern day Craftsman style home and its very rewarding. With what you have stashed and your wife still working etc,, you are more than fine. Heck I have two kids at home and two in college that are home right now. Take your time but get to it sooner than later or you'll fall into that one more year trap!

As I posted on another thread, I feel like a school kid knowing that summer vacation is approaching. It's getting harder to sit through meetings. I don't think I'll last for another year :-)

My older daughter has one more year to go in college and my younger daughter will start college in a couple of years. Thankfully, we have enough liquid assets set aside to cover all remaining educational expenses, no matter where the younger one decides to go.

We have been living in the same house (built in the late 50s) now for almost 25 years  and we have been slowly fixing it up over the years as funds permitted. Most of our house is now in good shape except for the basement which is where I have my home office - the lighting is terrible and it gets chilly in the winter.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 24, 2019, 03:05:08 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 23, 2019, 08:15:30 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 23, 2019, 02:42:30 AM

Oh the good ole days of meetings! Remembering having meetings and setting up the next meetings! You have to get out when you feel comfortable to do so BUT you also need to step out of your comfort zone. Like they say it takes awhile to adjust and its different for everyone. Heck I Fired a little over 4 years ago and I still am adjusting but I'd rather be adjusting than working and its less and less each day. Maybe I should write a book the twelve steps of being fire'd?!?!? hmmmmmm. Actually though I look back and wonder how I ever looked and 2sk22 I know how it is to do remodeling in Fire. I have put 70k into my house since I have fire'd and just finish redoing the entire outside of my home yesterday which was 19k of it. Brought it out of the 70's into the modern day Craftsman style home and its very rewarding. With what you have stashed and your wife still working etc,, you are more than fine. Heck I have two kids at home and two in college that are home right now. Take your time but get to it sooner than later or you'll fall into that one more year trap!

As I posted on another thread, I feel like a school kid knowing that summer vacation is approaching. It's getting harder to sit through meetings. I don't think I'll last for another year :-)

My older daughter has one more year to go in college and my younger daughter will start college in a couple of years. Thankfully, we have enough liquid assets set aside to cover all remaining educational expenses, no matter where the younger one decides to go.

We have been living in the same house (built in the late 50s) now for almost 25 years  and we have been slowly fixing it up over the years as funds permitted. Most of our house is now in good shape except for the basement which is where I have my home office - the lighting is terrible and it gets chilly in the winter.

Funny ,  sound alot like me. I have 2 in college and the one finishing up freshman year in HS and then one finishing up 7th grade that we have 529's built up for and still contributing but for the most part they will be covered. I think that was the biggest surprise for us was both my kids went out of state because of sports for college my DD on a Full Ride and my son a partial but even with that so much extra cost of thing we didnt figure like traveling to see them and so on. The next two years now my DS is just going to go to a school in state and hes burnt out from sport so going to go to school and work and if he misses it he can walk on at any school in state and make the team no worries. We bout a 70's ranch going on 5 years when we downsized, well kinda its still 2700 squ feet but from the road you would think its 900. The taxes though are a third of the price and we put a ton of money away downsizing BUT have been modeling it non-stop since we moved in. The inside now is about 90% done and the outside is all redone. Fun fun fun but wanta be done but I dont think you ever get there! :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 24, 2019, 04:32:11 AM

So I’ve been using Cfiresim and the post retirement/death calculator and I was feeling pretty good about our plan for me to quit in a year despite the crazy market situation, and then DH comes home and says the University he works for us having a really tough time with enrollment and may go on fiscal watch with the state this year and could potentially go under. This is scary for me.
I think it’s not extremely likely to happen. I think it will take a few years. But what do we do? Do we move forward with our plan? Using the calculators it’s seems we could likely stay the course and if that happens we could just both RE. But with the kids still in elementary school, future expenses for them are very scary. And health insurance. I’m not confident we could afford to self insure or that there are even good options on the ACA.
Anyway, I hate my job and I hate being away from the kids, but it pays well and is secure.
How do you all FIRE with this level of uncertainty?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 24, 2019, 10:22:58 AM

Could either of you in the future get some kind of job, even part time, that provides benefits? Sure, the US healthcare situation is a shit show and we all worry about the ACA, but in the meantime it is great law of the land and has been for a decade. I doubt that between the two of you, goi would be e girly unable to find any decent job for some period of time to cover healthcare if things really did go in a bad way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 24, 2019, 11:47:29 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 24, 2019, 10:22:58 AM

Could either of you in the future get some kind of job, even part time, that provides benefits? Sure, the US healthcare situation is a shit show and we all worry about the ACA, but in the meantime it is great law of the land and has been for a decade. I doubt that between the two of you, goi would be e girly unable to find any decent job for some period of time to cover healthcare if things really did go in a bad way.

I'm a CPA so it would probably be pretty easy for me, but not likely to pay as much or be as good of a situation as what I currently have. Especially after taking a break.
DH would struggle to find another job and it might require a big move.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 24, 2019, 12:53:15 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 24, 2019, 11:47:29 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 24, 2019, 10:22:58 AM

Could either of you in the future get some kind of job, even part time, that provides benefits? Sure, the US healthcare situation is a shit show and we all worry about the ACA, but in the meantime it is great law of the land and has been for a decade. I doubt that between the two of you, goi would be e girly unable to find any decent job for some period of time to cover healthcare if things really did go in a bad way.

I'm a CPA so it would probably be pretty easy for me, but not likely to pay as much or be as good of a situation as what I currently have. Especially after taking a break.
DH would struggle to find another job and it might require a big move.

So if you are otherwise at your number except for potential future healthcare worries, you could still stick to your plan and pull the trigger, having a worst case scenario backup plan be for you to go back to some work just for health coverage if things got bad enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on May 24, 2019, 01:00:46 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2019, 04:34:08 AM

I’ve been lurking on this thread for awhile. I guess hoping to gain some insight or comfort from you all about why DH and I (both 41) are still working until we get to the $3M number. And depending on the situation with healthcare may continue until the kids are out of college. Which would put us probably closer to $4M unless we have another recession with stagnant ten year returns.
These last few posts really hit home to me. Especially Itchyfeets post. That is exactly the circle my brain does:
 -I probably won’t live to be 100 and I may not be able to do all the things I want after 60 so I better do it now!
 -but 50 years to fund is a lot!!! What if there is a recession and we have zero returns. What if I’m wrong about expenses for the kids? Or healthcare?
-But the kids are growing fast I’d really like to be home with them! And we are FI by most people’s standards! Our advisor says we are good to go. I should do it! Quit now!!
-But I make so much money and my job is pretty easy, with good people there! Why would I give that up?
-but I’m so tired all the time. And my kids are aging out of nannys and programs. I don’t want them to be latch key kids!
-but I’ve worked so hard to get where I am in my career!! Lots of folks would love to have my job.

And on and on it goes. The plan is for me to work through all this mentally and pull the trigger one year from now- May of 2020. DH will keep working until he feels ready to be done. I hope to try and start my own tax and accounting business and maybe adjunct a few accounting classes. Hopefully that will help me feel like I am still using my skills.

Sounds like you will be just fine. Breathe!

You have way more money than time right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 24, 2019, 02:04:28 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 24, 2019, 11:47:29 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 24, 2019, 10:22:58 AM

Could either of you in the future get some kind of job, even part time, that provides benefits? Sure, the US healthcare situation is a shit show and we all worry about the ACA, but in the meantime it is great law of the land and has been for a decade. I doubt that between the two of you, goi would be e girly unable to find any decent job for some period of time to cover healthcare if things really did go in a bad way.

I'm a CPA so it would probably be pretty easy for me, but not likely to pay as much or be as good of a situation as what I currently have. Especially after taking a break.
DH would struggle to find another job and it might require a big move.

So DH is not ready to be done and his well paid job provides healthcare?

Sounds simple enough.. Just quit. You know intellectually you have more than enough plus you have a source of HC for the forseeable. Unless there is a golden parachute (for YOU) to be had in 2020 then really there is no good reason to wait.

There are lots of good reasons not to stay at work.. You're miserable, you have "paid the piper", you have passed the marshmallow test many times over..

Sometimes you just have to JFDI and see what happens.

Clue.. you'll be just fine.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 24, 2019, 06:59:08 PM

There are plenty of good health care plans on the ACA marketplace.

I just got my Shingrix vaccine and it was entirely free.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EngineerOurFI on May 26, 2019, 01:30:35 PM

I follow this thread because my non-inflation adjuster target (current dollars) is around $3M.  My goal is to work to ensure I can hit at least $2.5M in current dollars while also having fully funded 529s for the kids and some ability to pay for kids’ weddings and honeymoons as well as perhaps minor assistance on their first home down payments.

I feel like some people in this thread need encouragement that “enough is enough”.  For those going a fatFIRE route, I think the “what ifs” combined with relatively easy high paying jobs (golden handcuffs) stop them from declaring FI and/or prod them to keep bumping up FI number.

Personally, I believe if you haven’t read Big ERN’s 31 part series on Ultimate SWR Guide - you should stop what you’re doing and go read it now.  It’s a highly data-driven look at SWRs that may give you greater comfort in your selected FI number.

https://earlyretirementnow.com/2016/12/07/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-1-intro/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 26, 2019, 02:00:03 PM

Quote from: EngineerOurFI on May 26, 2019, 01:30:35 PM

I follow this thread because my non-inflation adjuster target (current dollars) is around $3M.  My goal is to work to ensure I can hit at least $2.5M in current dollars while also having fully funded 529s for the kids and some ability to pay for kids’ weddings and honeymoons as well as perhaps minor assistance on their first home down payments.

I feel like some people in this thread need encouragement that “enough is enough”.  For those going a fatFIRE route, I think the “what ifs” combined with relatively easy high paying jobs (golden handcuffs) stop them from declaring FI and/or prod them to keep bumping up FI number.

Personally, I believe if you haven’t read Big ERN’s 31 part series on Ultimate SWR Guide - you should stop what you’re doing and go read it now.  It’s a highly data-driven look at SWRs that may give you greater comfort in your selected FI number.

https://earlyretirementnow.com/2016/12/07/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-1-intro/

I know personally that I used Mustacianism to get here, but now that I'm here I've become more Bogleheadish.  Money gets easier and easier to make as you get here.  You think back to a time you worked as farm labor for $3 dollars an hour.  How you ate a corn dog and drank water because you couldn't affford a hamburger and a beer.  How you can speak your mind at work now, when in the past you had to bite your tongue and take it.   It's not necessarily about buying shiny things, it's the shine of the money itself.  Money accumulating money is extremely mentally satisfying.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 26, 2019, 03:05:01 PM

Quote from: EngineerOurFI on May 26, 2019, 01:30:35 PM

I feel like some people in this thread need encouragement that “enough is enough”.  For those going a fatFIRE route, I think the “what ifs” combined with relatively easy high paying jobs (golden handcuffs) stop them from declaring FI and/or prod them to keep bumping up FI number.

You must surely be referring to me :-)

I feel that my company is throwing such ridiculous amounts of money at me that I has caused me to delay "RE", long after we became FI. But it will happen soon - the wheels are turning.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/religion-workism-making-americans-miserable/583441/

Quote

“For many of today’s rich there is no such thing as ‘leisure’; in the classic sense—work is their play,” the economist Robert Frank wrote in The Wall Street Journal. “Building wealth to them is a creative process, and the closest thing they have to fun.”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 26, 2019, 03:47:19 PM

2sk22 you've turned the corner where employment is nolonger threatening.   Once FI work is an option to you and they know it.  They give you a wide berth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FIREstache on May 26, 2019, 05:05:10 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 26, 2019, 02:00:03 PM

Money gets easier and easier to make as you get here.

That's been easy to say for a while... until the next recession hits and stocks drop 50% and take years to recover.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 26, 2019, 05:21:01 PM

Quote from: FIREstache on May 26, 2019, 05:05:10 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 26, 2019, 02:00:03 PM

Money gets easier and easier to make as you get here.

That's been easy to say for a while... until the next recession hits and stocks drop 50% and take years to recover.

True, but I read this as the making money from income has become easier and easier.
If retired then we’ll all likely make some adjustments when that kind of market correction happens. But if we are still working and raking in piles of cash.....

I do really wonder how many of us will still be as sanguine when a big dump happens, trusting the math that we have been studying for years, and who will panic. I’d like to think I will be in the calm crowd. But more and more reaching our number has become more and more important to me as it is increasingly difficult to balance home and two full time careers. I’m hoping that finding some compromise in between total FIRE and two careers will let us coast with more enjoyment until we get to a point of total comfort with the numbers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FIREstache on May 26, 2019, 06:57:44 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 26, 2019, 05:21:01 PM

Quote from: FIREstache on May 26, 2019, 05:05:10 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 26, 2019, 02:00:03 PM

Money gets easier and easier to make as you get here.

That's been easy to say for a while... until the next recession hits and stocks drop 50% and take years to recover.

True, but I read this as the making money from income has become easier and easier.

It was the comment "Money accumulating money is extremely mentally satisfying" that I related to investments making money.

Quote

If retired then we’ll all likely make some adjustments when that kind of market correction happens. But if we are still working and raking in piles of cash.....

I do really wonder how many of us will still be as sanguine when a big dump happens, trusting the math that we have been studying for years, and who will panic. I’d like to think I will be in the calm crowd. But more and more reaching our number has become more and more important to me as it is increasingly difficult to balance home and two full time careers. I’m hoping that finding some compromise in between total FIRE and two careers will let us coast with more enjoyment until we get to a point of total comfort with the numbers.

IIRC from previous posts, I think you, Bateaux and I aren't planning to work more than one or two more years, so there aren't too many of those high income earning years left.  With such as short timeline to FIRE and just 10 years to SS, I've reduced my equities below 50% (last adjustment to AA on May 3rd).  I've already hit an adequate stash, so I'm more concerned with holding on to it than building it higher.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 27, 2019, 03:02:23 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 26, 2019, 05:21:01 PM

I do really wonder how many of us will still be as sanguine when a big dump happens, trusting the math that we have been studying for years, and who will panic. I’d like to think I will be in the calm crowd. But more and more reaching our number has become more and more important to me as it is increasingly difficult to balance home and two full time careers. I’m hoping that finding some compromise in between total FIRE and two careers will let us coast with more enjoyment until we get to a point of total comfort with the numbers.

We have been steadily investing in an index fund on an automatic monthly plan, uninterrupted since the mid 90s - right through two crashes. We didn't panic through those events so I'm hoping that we have the same discipline on the other side when drawing down our savings.

In my case, helping my aged parents cope with medical crises and my kids through school and college is becoming a lot more important than work. In fact, i'm  off tomorrow to spend a couple of weeks with my parents. My older kid had a rough term in college earlier this year and I had to spend a lot of time helping her through that. Juggling all that and a demanding job is getting a bit much.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 27, 2019, 07:11:55 AM

I've not the vast sums of wealth that some of you have piled up, but there should be enough for my duration in this world.  The following comes to mind:

 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

That's out of the Bible.  I'm not too religious, but I realize there is wisdom in that book.  It's not too hard to imagine losing everything to money.  It's sort of like not seeing the forest for the trees and I've done enough of that in other ways.

I've wondered if I hung it up if I could do both myself and maybe some other people some good before I check out.  Helping a corporation achieve it's objectives could be considered good, but I just can't see it being the same as other things.

I'm still in the race.  What is the real, ".....and beyond!"?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 31, 2019, 03:53:30 AM

The thing to remember is even when your fire'd if need be and you have any intelligence when the market crashes or even before there are alot of ways to make some cash. Im fired over 4 years and I have been doing some cash jobs on my terms only and for something to do. So that makes it fun. It also feels good to be doing something when the market is monkeying around like it is now and taking less out of investments. The good thing is most everyone here is in a position of being able to make many choices and in having that privilege feel good you have won the game.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on May 31, 2019, 06:20:10 AM

Quote from: FIREstache on May 26, 2019, 06:57:44 PM

IIRC from previous posts, I think you, Bateaux and I aren't planning to work more than one or two more years, so there aren't too many of those high income earning years left.  With such as short timeline to FIRE and just 10 years to SS, I've reduced my equities below 50% (last adjustment to AA on May 3rd).  I've already hit an adequate stash, so I'm more concerned with holding on to it than building it higher.

Include me in that group.  Already at 50/50.  I could take reduced SS today if I wanted to.  A few years on Bogleheads has turned my plan completely around, though.....  I've been saying since the 80's that SS is a big pyramid scheme and that I'd start taking it the minute I was eligible.  Now, I'm thinking more about medicare costs linked with income and increasing the payout for my wife.  <sigh>  I guess I'm in the "wait till 70" camp now.  I'm an older parent with one son finishing off some straggling courses for his BS as he transferred in.....and second son starting community college in the fall.  It will be nice not having $70k private college bills anymore, I have to say.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 31, 2019, 07:36:38 AM

I loved this latest blog post on Social Security and early retirement from the Finance Buff

https://thefinancebuff.com/early-retirement-social-security-benefits.html

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on May 31, 2019, 11:45:03 AM

This is really cool, David.  I've never seen anything as clear as this.  I found out I'm above the second bend point (I had absolutely no idea).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 31, 2019, 12:20:52 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on May 31, 2019, 07:36:38 AM

I loved this latest blog post on Social Security and early retirement from the Finance Buff

https://thefinancebuff.com/early-retirement-social-security-benefits.html

I’ve bookmarked this so I can go back and run my own numbers later when I have a little more time. I’ve really been looking for something clearly laid out like this since the SS website assumes you are going to work until you are ancient. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 31, 2019, 01:25:06 PM

Ok good luck making sense of that article and your own SS benefits projection.

so i am below the second bend point (yay!).. At an average monthly income of $4025 (I took all my earnings for the last 20 years I have been in the US, added them up and divided by 35).

So my PIA (payments at 67) should be.

0.9* 926 +0.32*(4024-926) = $1825.

My projected earning according to my statement (and it says this assumes you earn $zero from now till you retire) is $2257 at full retirement age = 67 in my case.

I can only assume the $2257 is in future dollars???????

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: CoffeeR on May 31, 2019, 01:45:46 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 31, 2019, 01:25:06 PM

I can only assume the $2257 is in future dollars???????

Correct. If by future dollars you mean the actual payout at 67 (or whenever) is adjusted for inflation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 31, 2019, 02:07:14 PM

Quote from: CoffeeR on May 31, 2019, 01:45:46 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 31, 2019, 01:25:06 PM

I can only assume the $2257 is in future dollars???????

Correct. If by future dollars you mean the actual payout at 67 (or whenever) is adjusted for inflation.

Good to know.. I didn't see that anywhere on the website.. Do you know what inflation rate they are assuming?

I should be able to make the numbers jive in theory by taking my calculated PIA (1825 in my case) and multiplying by (1.x)^10 (10 being 67-57, my current age).

Looks like its around 2% per annum if indeed the projected benefit is in future dollars.

Either way that article will not get you to the number shown on your SS statement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: CoffeeR on May 31, 2019, 02:27:19 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 31, 2019, 02:07:14 PM

Quote from: CoffeeR on May 31, 2019, 01:45:46 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 31, 2019, 01:25:06 PM

I can only assume the $2257 is in future dollars???????

Correct. If by future dollars you mean the actual payout at 67 (or whenever) is adjusted for inflation.

Good to know.. I didn't see that anywhere on the website.. Do you know what inflation rate they are assuming?

I should be able to make the numbers jive in theory by taking my calculated PIA (1825 in my case) and multiplying by (1.x)^10 (10 being 67-57, my current age).

Looks like its around 2% per annum if indeed the projected benefit is in future dollars.

Either way that article will not get you to the number shown on your SS statement.

Maybe I misunderstand. The $2257 is current dollars that will be adjusted for actual inflation numbers. At least I believe that is the case, so there is no assumption of inflation rate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 31, 2019, 02:30:09 PM

According to this article..

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2018/09/24/how-much-social-security-will-i-get-a-step-by-step.aspx

Its even more complicated.. Apparently the earnings record you see on your SS security statement has to be adjusted for inflation for each year worked using some worksheet somewhere.

Looking at my earnings data, there is no way this has been adjusted because it jives with my W2 statements.

So if the Mfool article is correct you have to first go through and apply a multiplying factor to each of your working years earnings.

That then gets you to your average monthly earnings.

Once again.. getting from your earnings data to your SS statement estimate is quite a bit more complex that the first article implies.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 31, 2019, 02:38:02 PM

OK here is the definitive way to run your own numbers.. And hopefully get to the numbers shown on your SS statement..:)

I don't have time to go through all mine for a second time but its clear it will give you a very different answer to the one I first calculated from that article. I will almost certainly be above the second bend point whereas the first article implied that I would be below.

https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10070.pdf

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FIREstache on May 31, 2019, 05:57:54 PM

The webpage does say that it's in "today's dollars".  Looks like I'm at a good place, just a bit below the second bend if I FIRE on schedule.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 31, 2019, 06:57:16 PM

Quote from: FIREstache on May 31, 2019, 05:57:54 PM

The webpage does say that it's in "today's dollars".  Looks like I'm at a good place, just a bit below the second bend if I FIRE on schedule.

Did you factor up each of your yearly earnings for inflation?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 31, 2019, 08:02:37 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 31, 2019, 06:57:16 PM

Quote from: FIREstache on May 31, 2019, 05:57:54 PM

The webpage does say that it's in "today's dollars".  Looks like I'm at a good place, just a bit below the second bend if I FIRE on schedule.

Did you factor up each of your yearly earnings for inflation?

The social security tool does that for you, you just copy and paste your earnings record from ssa.gov

Then the amount you get, is in today's dollars.
The actual amount will be higher, as inflation adjustments will kick in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FIREstache on May 31, 2019, 08:11:47 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 31, 2019, 06:57:16 PM

Quote from: FIREstache on May 31, 2019, 05:57:54 PM

The webpage does say that it's in "today's dollars".  Looks like I'm at a good place, just a bit below the second bend if I FIRE on schedule.

Did you factor up each of your yearly earnings for inflation?

I did not.  You're supposed to paste in the figures from ssa.gov without editing them.

I also use the downloadable ssa.gov detailed calculator, and it matches very closely to the figure from that website.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 01, 2019, 04:01:25 AM

Quote from: lhamo on May 31, 2019, 07:48:53 PM

NW down over 67k this month -- basically back to where we were two months ago.  At least all this volatility is showing me I have got the buy and hold thing down.  We've got a big enough cash stash to ride out any downturn (and ride it back up from the bottom).  Not financially optimized, maybe, but good for the mental health.  And the long-term retirement funds are all invested and won't be tapped for another 10-20 years.

Right there with ya! and agree totally!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 01, 2019, 04:23:44 AM

With SS being at least twelve years away for me, it's just too far out for me to ponder.  My only concern is if it's there at all and when to take it.  I did look up the projected number at 62 and wasn't impressed at all.  The actual number will most likely be even less with some zero or near zero years.  I hope it can pay my medicare and supplement.   That would be a riot. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 01, 2019, 04:30:32 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on June 01, 2019, 04:01:25 AM

Quote from: lhamo on May 31, 2019, 07:48:53 PM

NW down over 67k this month -- basically back to where we were two months ago.  At least all this volatility is showing me I have got the buy and hold thing down.  We've got a big enough cash stash to ride out any downturn (and ride it back up from the bottom).  Not financially optimized, maybe, but good for the mental health.  And the long-term retirement funds are all invested and won't be tapped for another 10-20 years.

Right there with ya! and agree totally!

Yep.   Down almost 100K, barly keeping the nose over the 2M mark.   If I'd FIRE'd already my 2M floor and go back to work trigger would be getting close.  I'm probably working 12 to 18 more months.  Just waiting this out.  We've seen a much larger recent drop and it recovered quickly.  A 20 to 25 percent drop is still looming in my opinion.   The trade war might get it started.  We'll see what comes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: dogboyslim on June 01, 2019, 07:50:29 AM

Down $90k here.  Still hovering around 2.15, but without the house, I'm back in the prior group again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 01, 2019, 08:22:59 AM

Quote from: dogboyslim on June 01, 2019, 07:50:29 AM

Down $90k here.  Still hovering around 2.15, but without the house, I'm back in the prior group again.

I'm not throwing in real estate yet, since our isn't income producing.   I'm thinking before years end we retest the lows of last year.  That was rather painful.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 01, 2019, 08:41:22 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on May 31, 2019, 07:36:38 AM

I loved this latest blog post on Social Security and early retirement from the Finance Buff

https://thefinancebuff.com/early-retirement-social-security-benefits.html

Great link, thank you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FIREstache on June 01, 2019, 12:41:31 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 01, 2019, 04:23:44 AM

With SS being at least twelve years away for me, it's just too far out for me to ponder.  My only concern is if it's there at all and when to take it.  I did look up the projected number at 62 and wasn't impressed at all.  The actual number will most likely be even less with some zero or near zero years.  I hope it can pay my medicare and supplement.   That would be a riot.

Under current law and the ACA, the earliest I would take SS is 65 because the full SS benefit, both taxable and non-taxable SS, counts toward MAGI in determining ACA PCT and CSR.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 01, 2019, 01:19:11 PM

Quote from: FIREstache on June 01, 2019, 12:41:31 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 01, 2019, 04:23:44 AM

With SS being at least twelve years away for me, it's just too far out for me to ponder.  My only concern is if it's there at all and when to take it.  I did look up the projected number at 62 and wasn't impressed at all.  The actual number will most likely be even less with some zero or near zero years.  I hope it can pay my medicare and supplement.   That would be a riot.

Under current law and the ACA, the earliest I would take SS is 65 because the full SS benefit, both taxable and non-taxable SS, counts toward MAGI in determining ACA PCT and CSR.

Thats my strategy too. I may even delay taking my company pension from the UK for the same reason.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on June 01, 2019, 09:15:59 PM

I'm teaching yoga whereby I end up being an employee of public schools. I'm hoping that I can get the service credits needed to be able to retire from it at age 60 and get the retiree health plan with premiums 80% covered. If I get that, then my strategy will shift to Rothification of assets.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 02, 2019, 06:13:31 PM

I went back and recalculated my projected SS payments.. Finally I can now reconcile SS projections with my own calcs.

I also am a mere $87,000 of total earnings under the second bend point.

Maybe I should go back to work for OMY...:)

Shame about the windfall elimination program as that will cost me about $450/m.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 02, 2019, 10:58:05 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 02, 2019, 06:13:31 PM

I went back and recalculated my projected SS payments.. Finally I can now reconcile SS projections with my own calcs.

I also am a mere $87,000 of total earnings under the second bend point.

Maybe I should go back to work for OMY...:)

Shame about the windfall elimination program as that will cost me about $450/m.

Luckily, you don't need it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 03, 2019, 04:23:15 AM

Ugh. I should not have looked, but it’s the beginning of the month and time to do our financials. Looks like we are down about $70k to $2.273M.
We need at least $2.5M to RE without lifestyle change. I’m still hoping we get there by May 2020.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 03, 2019, 10:41:09 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 03, 2019, 04:23:15 AM

Ugh. I should not have looked, but it’s the beginning of the month and time to do our financials. Looks like we are down about $70k to $2.273M.
We need at least $2.5M to RE without lifestyle change. I’m still hoping we get there by May 2020.

Stay off of Yahoo Finance..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on June 03, 2019, 07:04:23 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on May 31, 2019, 07:36:38 AM

I loved this latest blog post on Social Security and early retirement from the Finance Buff

https://thefinancebuff.com/early-retirement-social-security-benefits.html

I used the info on this page to check my SS earnings statement and estimate my SS income.  The SS.gov web site is updated and improved.  (My last login was 2015)  The blog post also links to an excellent SS benefit calculator that makes it very easy to estimate your monthly SS income at different ages.  The numbers were very close to what I initially estimated but it was good to get confirmation and the process is massively simpler than it was back in 2015.  If you are at or near RE is worth checking it out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on June 03, 2019, 07:14:40 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 03, 2019, 04:23:15 AM

Ugh. I should not have looked, but it’s the beginning of the month and time to do our financials. Looks like we are down about $70k to $2.273M.
We need at least $2.5M to RE without lifestyle change. I’m still hoping we get there by May 2020.

I feel ya. My wife and I save around $15-20K per month and when I see that, despite that, our net worth goes down in a given month, I know it’s been a bad month.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 04, 2019, 08:52:36 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 03, 2019, 10:41:09 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 03, 2019, 04:23:15 AM

Ugh. I should not have looked, but it’s the beginning of the month and time to do our financials. Looks like we are down about $70k to $2.273M.
We need at least $2.5M to RE without lifestyle change. I’m still hoping we get there by May 2020.

Stay off of Yahoo Finance..:)

And CNN, and NY Times and Bloomberg and CNBC- if you are referring to the prediction that we are headed into a recession.
Then again CNN is also claiming that climate change could pose an existential threat by 2050. In which case no amount of money will help us.
Either way we loose?

Regardless, the crazy market has me thinking that I should really plan to continue some kind of part time work for the next 10-20 years. Aiming for $15-$20k per year of earnings. This would help cover tuition, our expensive travel habit and my anxiety.
If I could earn it all during tax season that would be perfect.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 04, 2019, 09:31:36 AM

Looks like the market is recovering a bit this morning.   Not even going to check Mint today.   I'm headed out to ride my mountain bike instead.  Hard to think about anything except the next second or two on rough terrain.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on June 04, 2019, 09:52:17 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 04, 2019, 08:52:36 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 03, 2019, 10:41:09 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 03, 2019, 04:23:15 AM

Ugh. I should not have looked, but it’s the beginning of the month and time to do our financials. Looks like we are down about $70k to $2.273M.
We need at least $2.5M to RE without lifestyle change. I’m still hoping we get there by May 2020.

Stay off of Yahoo Finance..:)

And CNN, and NY Times and Bloomberg and CNBC- if you are referring to the prediction that we are headed into a recession.
Then again CNN is also claiming that climate change could pose an existential threat by 2050. In which case no amount of money will help us.
Either way we loose?

Regardless, the crazy normal market has me thinking that I should really plan to continue some kind of part time work for the next 10-20 years. Aiming for $15-$20k per year of earnings. This would not help cover tuition, our expensive travel habit and my anxiety.
If I could earn it all during tax season that would be perfect.

Fixed THat For You /snark
IF this were the 10-100k thread, I would not have needed to fix anything. On this thread... are you kidding me? If you have that level of anxiety "which case no amount of money will help us".

I've given up on Bateaux's OMY, OMY , but you might be saved.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 04, 2019, 11:01:39 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on June 04, 2019, 09:52:17 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 04, 2019, 08:52:36 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 03, 2019, 10:41:09 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 03, 2019, 04:23:15 AM

Ugh. I should not have looked, but it’s the beginning of the month and time to do our financials. Looks like we are down about $70k to $2.273M.
We need at least $2.5M to RE without lifestyle change. I’m still hoping we get there by May 2020.

Stay off of Yahoo Finance..:)

And CNN, and NY Times and Bloomberg and CNBC- if you are referring to the prediction that we are headed into a recession.
Then again CNN is also claiming that climate change could pose an existential threat by 2050. In which case no amount of money will help us.
Either way we loose?

Regardless, the crazy normal market has me thinking that I should really plan to continue some kind of part time work for the next 10-20 years. Aiming for $15-$20k per year of earnings. This would not help cover tuition, our expensive travel habit and my anxiety.
If I could earn it all during tax season that would be perfect.

Fixed THat For You /snark
IF this were the 10-100k thread, I would not have needed to fix anything. On this thread... are you kidding me? If you have that level of anxiety "which case no amount of money will help us".

I've given up on Bateaux's OMY, OMY , but you might be saved.

I would really, really like to be saved. I want to be done. My problem is that we are 42 and raising kids. So I'm projecting a long retirement with a large gray area on kids expenses. I think it would be a lot easier if we didn't have two young kids. Current expenses are a base of $75k. But we have tuition, healthcare (if we both RE) and we like to travel as a family. Won't be long and they won't be caught dead with me. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on June 04, 2019, 02:02:11 PM

There's nothing wrong with some part time work.
I work part time and I enjoy it, and consequently I'm not even touching my savings.

The financial independence gives you options, the option to have some anxiety about it, but yet retire anyway, even if it's just partial retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 04, 2019, 02:16:55 PM

The "only" problem with pt work is that once you have RE'd, gerrymandered your earnings to maximise your ACA subsidy and pay $zero federal taxes.. Well almost any earnings has you paying full freight on healthcare.

In our case I couldn't ask enough $$ to make it worth my while.. Well.. I asked, but they wouldn't pay it. In effect I would have been working for such a low wage I'd rather give my time for free to a worthy cause..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on June 04, 2019, 05:05:14 PM

I definitely get a subsidy for ACA and I have earnings.
I take advantage of everything, 401k, tIRA, HSA, etc. - lowers my income enough to qualify for subsidies.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 04, 2019, 05:23:50 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 04, 2019, 02:16:55 PM

The "only" problem with pt work is that once you have RE'd, gerrymandered your earnings to maximise your ACA subsidy and pay $zero federal taxes.. Well almost any earnings has you paying full freight on healthcare.

In our case I couldn't ask enough $$ to make it worth my while.. Well.. I asked, but they wouldn't pay it. In effect I would have been working for such a low wage I'd rather give my time for free to a worthy cause..:)

Oh crap. I didn’t even think about that. Well I’ve got another issue then. I have and RMD in two inherited IRAs that totals $10k a year (this is included in my net worth). And I’m receiving a trust distribution of about $10k per year which may increase (the trust balance is not included in my net worth because it only becomes my money when my last grandparent dies. Both of these will hit our income and I have no control over it. Which would make the ACA premiums increase. I don’t even think I can game it with the two years of cash I have saved. I should have thought of this. I don’t think it changes my plans to FIRE in 2020 but we will have to consider what the cost of insurance would do if we both quit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 04, 2019, 06:16:57 PM

Hey!  I've only OMY'd once.  Take it easy on me, I crashed my mountain bike today.  Bruised ribs, skinned up elbow and a very tender wrist. I came out under my own power on the bike.    I hiked over 4 miles afterwards to work out the soreness.   Then a thunderstorm dumped on me.  Even at the height of the storm, the horse flies never quit biting.   Hell with days off.  I'm going to work tomorrow to heal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 04, 2019, 06:25:28 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 04, 2019, 06:16:57 PM

Hey!  I've only OMY'd once.  Take it easy on me, I crashed my mountain bike today.  Bruised ribs, skinned up elbow and a very tender wrist. I came out under my own power on the bike.    I hiked over 4 miles afterwards to work out the soreness.   Then a thunderstorm dumped on me.  Even at the height of the storm, the horse flies never quit biting.   Hell with days off.  I'm going to work tomorrow to heal.

DH still works for some damn good reasons. He always jokes that he has to go to work so he can relax.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on June 04, 2019, 06:27:38 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 04, 2019, 06:16:57 PM

Hey!  I've only OMY'd once.  Take it easy on me, I crashed my mountain bike today.  Bruised ribs, skinned up elbow and a very tender wrist. I came out under my own power on the bike.    I hiked over 4 miles afterwards to work out the soreness.   Then a thunderstorm dumped on me.  Even at the height of the storm, the horse flies never quit biting. Hell with days off.  I'm going to work tomorrow to heal.

Wow, what an adventure. I hope you heal quickly.

What sort of bravery and/or insanity does it take to go play outdoors when you have biting horse flies around?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 04, 2019, 06:35:31 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 04, 2019, 06:16:57 PM

Hey!  I've only OMY'd once.  Take it easy on me, I crashed my mountain bike today.  Bruised ribs, skinned up elbow and a very tender wrist. I came out under my own power on the bike.    I hiked over 4 miles afterwards to work out the soreness.   Then a thunderstorm dumped on me.  Even at the height of the storm, the horse flies never quit biting.   Hell with days off.  I'm going to work tomorrow to heal.

Wow! Tomorrow is going to be rough getting out of bed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 04, 2019, 07:09:10 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 04, 2019, 06:25:28 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 04, 2019, 06:16:57 PM

Hey!  I've only OMY'd once.  Take it easy on me, I crashed my mountain bike today.  Bruised ribs, skinned up elbow and a very tender wrist. I came out under my own power on the bike.    I hiked over 4 miles afterwards to work out the soreness.   Then a thunderstorm dumped on me.  Even at the height of the storm, the horse flies never quit biting.   Hell with days off.  I'm going to work tomorrow to heal.

DH still works for some damn good reasons. He always jokes that he has to go to work so he can relax.

Yeah, it's way too dangerous out there in the real world!  I've never crashed my office chair or been bitten by horse flies sitting at my computer ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 04, 2019, 08:39:05 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 04, 2019, 07:09:10 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 04, 2019, 06:25:28 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 04, 2019, 06:16:57 PM

Hey!  I've only OMY'd once.  Take it easy on me, I crashed my mountain bike today.  Bruised ribs, skinned up elbow and a very tender wrist. I came out under my own power on the bike.    I hiked over 4 miles afterwards to work out the soreness.   Then a thunderstorm dumped on me.  Even at the height of the storm, the horse flies never quit biting.   Hell with days off.  I'm going to work tomorrow to heal.

DH still works for some damn good reasons. He always jokes that he has to go to work so he can relax.

Yeah, it's way too dangerous out there in the real world!  I've never crashed my office chair or been bitten by horse flies sitting at my computer ;)

I can't actually say I haven't crashed an office chair.  We've had some mean games of full contact, office chair basketball.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 04, 2019, 11:27:02 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 04, 2019, 08:39:05 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 04, 2019, 07:09:10 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 04, 2019, 06:25:28 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 04, 2019, 06:16:57 PM

Hey!  I've only OMY'd once.  Take it easy on me, I crashed my mountain bike today.  Bruised ribs, skinned up elbow and a very tender wrist. I came out under my own power on the bike.    I hiked over 4 miles afterwards to work out the soreness.   Then a thunderstorm dumped on me.  Even at the height of the storm, the horse flies never quit biting.   Hell with days off.  I'm going to work tomorrow to heal.

DH still works for some damn good reasons. He always jokes that he has to go to work so he can relax.

Yeah, it's way too dangerous out there in the real world!  I've never crashed my office chair or been bitten by horse flies sitting at my computer ;)

I can't actually say I haven't crashed an office chair.  We've had some mean games of full contact, office chair basketball.   

You have my vote for best use of office chairs ever.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 05, 2019, 03:36:38 AM

Wow, 27k bounce back. crazy market. Back in the day would of been a good trading day!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 05, 2019, 08:29:23 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on June 05, 2019, 03:36:38 AM

Wow, 27k bounce back. crazy market. Back in the day would of been a good trading day!

I love the psychology of market swings.. Especially that knot in the stomach as it plummets..

Then I think.. wait.. Even if our portfolio dropped a full 50% the resulting WR for our most expensive year so far would be a "massive" 3%!

Yet still every time it tanks like it did I feel it..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on June 05, 2019, 09:25:54 AM

I checked our spreadsheet yesterday and our invested net worth was around $60k less than the previous entry in the spreadsheet. My reaction was sort of “eh, okay”. Maybe it would be more of an event if we weren’t still working.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 05, 2019, 02:33:34 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 05, 2019, 08:29:23 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on June 05, 2019, 03:36:38 AM

Wow, 27k bounce back. crazy market. Back in the day would of been a good trading day!

I love the psychology of market swings.. Especially that knot in the stomach as it plummets..

Then I think.. wait.. Even if our portfolio dropped a full 50% the resulting WR for our most expensive year so far would be a "massive" 3%!

Yet still every time it tanks like it did I feel it..:)

I guess its really not that much unlike putting sums equaling the daily swings on Black on a roulette wheel (which I assume would make most of us puke)  given huge $ amounts, the immediacy of the result, and the uncertainty of being up or down being very close to 50% for both (The market is up for the day generally less that 53% of the time, and the bet on black will win more than 47% of the time, so for one day/spin not that noticeably different).  Its only in the long run do we know those few percent are gonna matter as things average out)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on June 06, 2019, 12:46:38 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 04, 2019, 06:16:57 PM

Hey!  I've only OMY'd once.  Take it easy on me, I crashed my mountain bike today.  Bruised ribs, skinned up elbow and a very tender wrist. I came out under my own power on the bike.    I hiked over 4 miles afterwards to work out the soreness.   Then a thunderstorm dumped on me.  Even at the height of the storm, the horse flies never quit biting.   Hell with days off.  I'm going to work tomorrow to heal.

I used to think that it isn’t mountain biking if you’re not bleeding somewhere by the end of the ride. Now I am older and wiser - blood is no longer required. Unfortunately it still happens often.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 06, 2019, 02:59:36 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on June 06, 2019, 12:46:38 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 04, 2019, 06:16:57 PM

Hey!  I've only OMY'd once.  Take it easy on me, I crashed my mountain bike today.  Bruised ribs, skinned up elbow and a very tender wrist. I came out under my own power on the bike.    I hiked over 4 miles afterwards to work out the soreness.   Then a thunderstorm dumped on me.  Even at the height of the storm, the horse flies never quit biting.   Hell with days off.  I'm going to work tomorrow to heal.

I used to think that it isn’t mountain biking if you’re not bleeding somewhere by the end of the ride. Now I am older and wiser - blood is no longer required. Unfortunately it still happens often.

I haven't rode in at least ten years hard or done a race but seemed like if something wasn't healing on me I wasn't riding hard or fast enough. Now looking back It was more about having a whole lot less care in the world! Miss those worry free days!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 06, 2019, 10:25:47 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 05, 2019, 02:33:34 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 05, 2019, 08:29:23 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on June 05, 2019, 03:36:38 AM

Wow, 27k bounce back. crazy market. Back in the day would of been a good trading day!

I love the psychology of market swings.. Especially that knot in the stomach as it plummets..

Then I think.. wait.. Even if our portfolio dropped a full 50% the resulting WR for our most expensive year so far would be a "massive" 3%!

Yet still every time it tanks like it did I feel it..:)

I guess its really not that much unlike putting sums equaling the daily swings on Black on a roulette wheel (which I assume would make most of us puke)  given huge $ amounts, the immediacy of the result, and the uncertainty of being up or down being very close to 50% for both (The market is up for the day generally less that 53% of the time, and the bet on black will win more than 47% of the time, so for one day/spin not that noticeably different).  Its only in the long run do we know those few percent are gonna matter as things average out)

No, you lose your entire bet when Black doesn't come up. The stock market, on then other hand, always comes back up and you still have all your chips, plus the ones you added when the market was down ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 06, 2019, 04:37:39 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on June 06, 2019, 12:46:38 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 04, 2019, 06:16:57 PM

Hey!  I've only OMY'd once.  Take it easy on me, I crashed my mountain bike today.  Bruised ribs, skinned up elbow and a very tender wrist. I came out under my own power on the bike.    I hiked over 4 miles afterwards to work out the soreness.   Then a thunderstorm dumped on me.  Even at the height of the storm, the horse flies never quit biting.   Hell with days off.  I'm going to work tomorrow to heal.

I used to think that it isn’t mountain biking if you’re not bleeding somewhere by the end of the ride. Now I am older and wiser - blood is no longer required. Unfortunately it still happens often.

Since I'm 50, I think I'll be trending more towards gravel bike terrain.  Still beautiful, still remote and less chance of serious injury.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 06, 2019, 07:39:57 PM

"No, you lose your entire bet when Black doesn't come up. The stock market, on then other hand, always comes back up and you still have all your chips, plus the ones you added when the market was down ;-)"

Looking at the market history chart, sometimes it can take darn long to come back to a former peak.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart (https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart)

Look, for example at August of 1965.  That value wasn't reached again until 1995.  Just looking at the shape of the chart, I can readily envision the wonderful heights we have reached plummeting to a trough.  The good numbers of the 1920's also took a long time to repeat.

I guess "beyond!" could become 1.5 million for a while.  If time is on your side, it will come back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 07, 2019, 12:15:09 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 06, 2019, 07:39:57 PM

"No, you lose your entire bet when Black doesn't come up. The stock market, on then other hand, always comes back up and you still have all your chips, plus the ones you added when the market was down ;-)"

Looking at the market history chart, sometimes it can take darn long to come back to a former peak.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart (https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart)

Look, for example at August of 1965.  That value wasn't reached again until 1995.  Just looking at the shape of the chart, I can readily envision the wonderful heights we have reached plummeting to a trough.  The good numbers of the 1920's also took a long time to repeat.

I guess "beyond!" could become 1.5 million for a while.  If time is on your side, it will come back.

That chart is both inflation adjusted and (I think) does not include dividends.

When in retirement one also adds some portion of bonds usually. Normally bonds increase in value when stocks go down.

So if you have say 25 to 40% bond funds would (in theory) make a 1965 event much less bad..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 07, 2019, 06:08:45 AM

Yeh - But while you are waiting, the bonds make your return less.  I guess if you've got the 30 years you can sit on the stocks.  Some of us, unfortunately, do not. 

I may have brought this up before, but what caused the stocks to plunge in 1965.  Was it spending on the Vietnam War?  Was it the onset of competition from the Japanese?  Was it Great Society spending?  I mean 1965 was good times for the country.   The good jobs were still around.  We were getting technologically advanced, getting ready to go to the moon.  The oil shocks to the economy had not occurred.

I like to think good times are all around.  It was basically good times.  US industry was punching out cars, making steel and throw away gadgets.  A rising tide is supposed to lift all boats.  What was up with the stock market?  When I studied history in school, they didn't emphasize rich folks with stocks so I don't understand this plunge.  I don't think inflation was out of hand either.  Government deficit spending wasn't crazy like it is now.  We weren't selling overseas bonds to the Chinese.

So, money gurus why did stocks fall beginning in 1965?  Might give some ideas to watch out for.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 07, 2019, 06:12:19 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 06, 2019, 10:25:47 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 05, 2019, 02:33:34 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 05, 2019, 08:29:23 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on June 05, 2019, 03:36:38 AM

Wow, 27k bounce back. crazy market. Back in the day would of been a good trading day!

I love the psychology of market swings.. Especially that knot in the stomach as it plummets..

Then I think.. wait.. Even if our portfolio dropped a full 50% the resulting WR for our most expensive year so far would be a "massive" 3%!

Yet still every time it tanks like it did I feel it..:)

I guess its really not that much unlike putting sums equaling the daily swings on Black on a roulette wheel (which I assume would make most of us puke)  given huge $ amounts, the immediacy of the result, and the uncertainty of being up or down being very close to 50% for both (The market is up for the day generally less that 53% of the time, and the bet on black will win more than 47% of the time, so for one day/spin not that noticeably different).  Its only in the long run do we know those few percent are gonna matter as things average out)

No, you lose your entire bet when Black doesn't come up. The stock market, on then other hand, always comes back up and you still have all your chips, plus the ones you added when the market was down ;-)

I said it is like putting the daily move on black, not your entire stake.  the market always coming back is what happen ver time, I'm talking about the daily move and the feeling around it, if I made money that day I could add chips just like I can add to down stocks.  I think its a pretty good analogy for the one day move.  If you were given the win for 0 and 00 as well as black then you would win 53% of the time and like the stock market over time would make money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 07, 2019, 07:57:52 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on May 31, 2019, 07:36:38 AM

I loved this latest blog post on Social Security and early retirement from the Finance Buff

https://thefinancebuff.com/early-retirement-social-security-benefits.html

This tool is really great, the most helpful I've seen on figuring/analyzing SS options for early retirees.  It also helped me better visualize what the options are when your spouse is a little younger and will be taking the spousal benefit (my case), I hadn't really put in the time before to figure that out but this made it immediately clear. 

I put in my numbers and it looks like I'll hit the second bend point around Summer of next year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 07, 2019, 08:36:08 AM

Curious, for those of you that have RE'd with this level of investments and are buying insurance on the ACA, how do dividends and capital gains affect your premiums/subsidy for your insurance? Does it change your insurance expense each year?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on June 07, 2019, 11:15:17 AM

I'm no historian, but I always felt that this seemed like a decent window into what someone retiring in 1965 would have felt like
https://www.gocurrycracker.com/the-worst-retirement-ever/ (https://www.gocurrycracker.com/the-worst-retirement-ever/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Enigma on June 07, 2019, 11:23:03 AM

IMO there was no push in the US to make more money in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. 
"The 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s - Over the next three decades, the top federal income tax rate remained high, never dipping below 70 percent."

1981 Regan became president moving from the Dem party to the Rep party.  I remember he said something like actors only did 3 or 4 movies.  After that taxes ate up everything.  No push or drive to make more or do more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 07, 2019, 04:54:31 PM

Quote from: PathtoFIRE on June 07, 2019, 11:15:17 AM

I'm no historian, but I always felt that this seemed like a decent window into what someone retiring in 1965 would have felt like
https://www.gocurrycracker.com/the-worst-retirement-ever/ (https://www.gocurrycracker.com/the-worst-retirement-ever/)

That was good.  I guess she wrote that in 2014.  So it was multiple things.  The oil was a big one.  The world economy was changing.  New producers had emerged taking market share away.  Economic policy wasn't so good allowing all that inflation. (Stagflation)  Are we more insulated from such things today?  The world is awash in oil and alternatives are waiting in the wing to take up the slack.

" there was no push in the US to make more money in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. "  - Not sure about that as the only resource that seems unlimited is human greed.  I don't think human nature was that different then.

Seems like new businesses were being developed all along

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_companies_established_in_1967 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_companies_established_in_1967)

Thanks for the great link.  I guess when I cut loose from working it will be with the acceptance that it can happen again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 08, 2019, 10:54:55 AM

And just like that the Mexico tariffs were gone.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 08, 2019, 02:52:09 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 08, 2019, 10:54:55 AM

And just like that the Mexico tariffs were gone.....

Yeh,....https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/us/politics/trump-tariffs-mexico.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/us/politics/trump-tariffs-mexico.html)

And what weren't the news media talking about when this tariff thing was all over the news?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 08, 2019, 05:39:36 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 08, 2019, 10:54:55 AM

And just like that the Mexico tariffs were gone.....

Starting fires so you can take credit for putting them out.  I'm curious to see if the markets just start ignoring the orange menace altogether.

Whatever, chances are our accounts will rebound quite a bit on Monday.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 08, 2019, 06:50:10 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 08, 2019, 05:39:36 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 08, 2019, 10:54:55 AM

And just like that the Mexico tariffs were gone.....

Starting fires so you can take credit for putting them out.  I'm curious to see if the markets just start ignoring the orange menace altogether.

Whatever, chances are our accounts will rebound quite a bit on Monday.

Maybe.. Looking at the way the market rebounded last week I wonder if the traders had been tipped off and the good news has been baked in already.

Still either way its good news even if we don't get an immediate bounce upwards... Might prevent the self inflicted recession even?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 12, 2019, 03:44:27 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 08, 2019, 06:50:10 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 08, 2019, 05:39:36 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 08, 2019, 10:54:55 AM

And just like that the Mexico tariffs were gone.....

Starting fires so you can take credit for putting them out.  I'm curious to see if the markets just start ignoring the orange menace altogether.

Whatever, chances are our accounts will rebound quite a bit on Monday.

Maybe.. Looking at the way the market rebounded last week I wonder if the traders had been tipped off and the good news has been baked in already.

Still either way its good news even if we don't get an immediate bounce upwards... Might prevent the self inflicted recession even?

Found yesterday interesting being pretty much a neutral day after how much it bounced back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 12, 2019, 04:54:09 AM

Looking at this thing and trying to discern a pattern like a jillion other people, it looks like most every time there's been a long plateau, there's a dip followed by a very steep rise.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart (https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 12, 2019, 05:12:19 AM

Whats the common wisdom here on investing large amounts of money in one shot? We currently have a sizable amount in company stock (vested RSUs) and would like to move this to a total market index fund.

Jim Collins seem to be in favor of doing this in one shot and doesn't like dollar cost averaging: https://jlcollinsnh.com/2014/11/12/stocks-part-xxvii-why-i-dont-like-dollar-cost-averaging/ (https://jlcollinsnh.com/2014/11/12/stocks-part-xxvii-why-i-dont-like-dollar-cost-averaging/)

Any dissenting opinions?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on June 12, 2019, 05:36:17 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 12, 2019, 05:12:19 AM

Whats the common wisdom here on investing large amounts of money in one shot? We currently have a sizable amount in company stock (vested RSUs) and would like to move this to a total market index fund.

Jim Collins seem to be in favor of doing this in one shot and doesn't like dollar cost averaging: https://jlcollinsnh.com/2014/11/12/stocks-part-xxvii-why-i-dont-like-dollar-cost-averaging/ (https://jlcollinsnh.com/2014/11/12/stocks-part-xxvii-why-i-dont-like-dollar-cost-averaging/)

Any dissenting opinions?

Nope. Do what’s best for you psychologically.  Just plan to get it invested per your IPS by 6-9 months IMO.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 12, 2019, 07:15:09 AM

If you have the money......
And your plan is to invest it......
What are you waiting for?
DCA makes no sense to me.  All my money's invested.  It would be just as valid for me to ask "Should I take all my money out of the market and dribble it back in?".
The answer is certainly no....that would be stupid.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 12, 2019, 07:23:26 AM

There's the kind of Dollar Cost Averaging that happens when you have money deposited from your steady paycheck, which is good, but kind of accidental. Then there's dealing with a lump sum or windfall. Time in the market is very important, so get that platoon of green soldiers working for you asap. Then stay put. Even if the market dips, with time it will recover, especially if you're not buying individual stocks. And getting out of company stocks is always a smart move.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 12, 2019, 08:01:01 AM

It is more likely that the stock market will be up tomorrow rather than down, invest it all and don’t touch it no matter what happens in the coming months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on June 12, 2019, 08:25:49 AM

someone's done the math before regarding the advantage of investing it all right away versus dollar cost averaging.
it's somewhere in a thread.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 12, 2019, 08:29:11 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on June 12, 2019, 05:36:17 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 12, 2019, 05:12:19 AM

Whats the common wisdom here on investing large amounts of money in one shot? We currently have a sizable amount in company stock (vested RSUs) and would like to move this to a total market index fund.

Jim Collins seem to be in favor of doing this in one shot and doesn't like dollar cost averaging: https://jlcollinsnh.com/2014/11/12/stocks-part-xxvii-why-i-dont-like-dollar-cost-averaging/ (https://jlcollinsnh.com/2014/11/12/stocks-part-xxvii-why-i-dont-like-dollar-cost-averaging/)

Any dissenting opinions?

Nope. Do what’s best for you psychologically.  Just plan to get it invested per your IPS by 6-9 months IMO.

I personally like this answer more than the 'mathematically optimal' solution of lump sum in and ignore for 30 years.  If you put a retirement sum in just before 2008 and 2009, and saw it drop by 40% in value and not know when it would come back (talks of financial collapse, investment houses going bankrupt, government bailouts...) would you be able to sit tight?

Once you have 'enough' to fund retirement comfortably in equities, you don't have to optimize every last dollar.  But this goes back to your IPS and risk tolerance, which is different for all of us.  I wish I could draw a graph, but on one side you aren't FI and need every dollar in equities to optimize your chances of reaching your number.  Then there's a middle ground where you are comfortably FI and 100% equities exposes you to short term risk to lose FI.  Then, on the other end of the curve, you are 2x FI or more and you can lose 50% and be fine....

This is definitely a first world problem to have!  Good luck

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 12, 2019, 08:39:01 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 12, 2019, 07:23:26 AM

There's the kind of Dollar Cost Averaging that happens when you have money deposited from your steady paycheck, which is good, but kind of accidental. Then there's dealing with a lump sum or windfall. Time in the market is very important, so get that platoon of green soldiers working for you asap. Then stay put. Even if the market dips, with time it will recover, especially if you're not buying individual stocks. And getting out of company stocks is always a smart move.

Thanks for clarification - this situation is indeed different from the implicit dollar cost averaging that happens when you invest regularly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 12, 2019, 08:45:12 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 12, 2019, 08:29:11 AM

Once you have 'enough' to fund retirement comfortably in equities, you don't have to optimize every last dollar.  But this goes back to your IPS and risk tolerance, which is different for all of us.  I wish I could draw a graph, but on one side you aren't FI and need every dollar in equities to optimize your chances of reaching your number.  Then there's a middle ground where you are comfortably FI and 100% equities exposes you to short term risk to lose FI.  Then, on the other end of the curve, you are 2x FI or more and you can lose 50% and be fine....

This is definitely a first world problem to have!  Good luck

You've put this very well. This is genuinely a windfall and is in addition to our main retirement funds. We won't need this for many years, hopefully.

Incidentally, we have kept our automated monthly investments running continuously on autopilot since 1998 through multiple recessions :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on June 12, 2019, 10:39:40 AM

As Vanguard states it, dollar cost averaging is just taking the risk later:

https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/s315.pdf

“We conclude that if an investor expects such trends to continue, is satisfied with his or her target asset allocation, and is comfortable with the risk/return characteristics of each strategy, the prudent action is investing the lump sum immediately to gain exposure to the markets
as soon as possible. But if the investor is primarily concerned with minimizing downside risk and potential feelings of regret (resulting from lump-sum investing immediately before a market downturn), then DCA may be of use.”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 12, 2019, 11:01:28 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 12, 2019, 05:12:19 AM

Whats the common wisdom here on investing large amounts of money in one shot? We currently have a sizable amount in company stock (vested RSUs) and would like to move this to a total market index fund.

Jim Collins seem to be in favor of doing this in one shot and doesn't like dollar cost averaging: https://jlcollinsnh.com/2014/11/12/stocks-part-xxvii-why-i-dont-like-dollar-cost-averaging/ (https://jlcollinsnh.com/2014/11/12/stocks-part-xxvii-why-i-dont-like-dollar-cost-averaging/)

Any dissenting opinions?

I'll face a similar question when I FIRE.  It's not company stock, it will be a lump sum retirement amount between 400 and 500K.  I'm not sure how much of that will go into stocks, if any.  It's drawing 5% interest right now, so with it making between 20 and 25k annually with no risk it might stay parked for a while.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on June 12, 2019, 11:07:17 AM

With a windfall, there's risk either way. Lump sum it, and you risk a downturn. Do periodic purchases of a windfall, and you risk missing an upturn. I prefer a lump sum because:
1) In 12 month periods, lump sum wins out 60% of the time uses historic data (although the 40% of the time losses tend to be larger)
2) Annual returns can be halved (or doubled) by missing just a few particular good (or bad) days throughout the year

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 12, 2019, 05:29:37 PM

As far as this lump sum thing goes, let's say you put it in and KaBam Plop, the market hits a correction.  The average correction lasts 18 months and then you wait to climb out of the hole.  Now 1929 and 1965 were bad according to the chart, but pick a lot of other points.  Just take a look.  That curve went up a lot in it's history.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart (https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart)

If you've got the time, it looks like the way to go.  There sure seem to be a lot of people on this site that have rode that stock market curve up.  No reason you can't be one of them.  Hey,........I'm even one of them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 12, 2019, 08:05:31 PM

A little hypothetical test for those of you that say DCAing is ok because it helps with the psychology.

Say you decide to invest the lump sum in 2 installments. The first installment today and the 2nd installment in 1 week.

A. You invest the first installment and in the coming days the market drops 20%. Do you still invest the 2nd installment?
B. You invest the first installment and in the coming days the market rises 20%. Do you invest the 2nd installment?

I think if your response to what you would do is impacted by the market movements then you are likely to continue to try and time the market which is pretty impossible. You need to unlearn the desire to try and time the market.

If the market drops 20%, it doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t drop by another 20% the week after. Many would say it’s a buying opportunity. You won’t know and maybe you’ll want to see a rebound before you invest. Your mind will play tricks on you. Equally if the market is booming you also won’t know whether to buy or if the market has become too expensive.

If your response is that you would make the 2 installment regardless of what the market does, then that says to me that you have belief in the market, and there is nothing to say that
Investing the 2nd installment in 1 weeks Time will be a better or worse time to invest than today. The general market trend is upwards over time, so the more days your money is invested the higher the probability of making more money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 13, 2019, 05:32:57 AM

I was in the lump sum situation when i close my business and I took the DCA approach but i took the money and basically divided it by 12 and put it in each month unless there was a dip then sooner. I agree to the psychological part of it and feel you have to do what lets you sleep at night. Once you have it all invested to me thats more important.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 13, 2019, 06:16:58 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on June 13, 2019, 05:32:57 AM

I was in the lump sum situation when i close my business and I took the DCA approach but i took the money and basically divided it by 12 and put it in each month unless there was a dip then sooner. I agree to the psychological part of it and feel you have to do what lets you sleep at night. Once you have it all invested to me thats more important.

An update: Based on the good advice from this group, I tried to persuade my wife that we should take a big-bang approach to re-investing our vested RSUs but she was nervous so its going to be spread out over the next couple of months in a manner similar to @soccerluvof4 's approach.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on June 13, 2019, 07:24:44 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on June 12, 2019, 08:05:31 PM

A little hypothetical test for those of you that say DCAing is ok because it helps with the psychology.

Say you decide to invest the lump sum in 2 installments. The first installment today and the 2nd installment in 1 week.

A. You invest the first installment and in the coming days the market drops 20%. Do you still invest the 2nd installment?
B. You invest the first installment and in the coming days the market rises 20%. Do you invest the 2nd installment?

I think if your response to what you would do is impacted by the market movements then you are likely to continue to try and time the market which is pretty impossible. You need to unlearn the desire to try and time the market.

If the market drops 20%, it doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t drop by another 20% the week after. Many would say it’s a buying opportunity. You won’t know and maybe you’ll want to see a rebound before you invest. Your mind will play tricks on you. Equally if the market is booming you also won’t know whether to buy or if the market has become too expensive.

If your response is that you would make the 2 installment regardless of what the market does, then that says to me that you have belief in the market, and there is nothing to say that
Investing the 2nd installment in 1 weeks Time will be a better or worse time to invest than today. The general market trend is upwards over time, so the more days your money is invested the higher the probability of making more money.

most of the people that are in this thread (with $2M+ invested) are probably pretty smart with money and get what you are saying.  however, just like the "should i pay off my mortgage or invest in the market", some of it depends on factors other than what you list above.

now, if they stray from their intentions due to subsequent market factors, that is a different circumstance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 13, 2019, 08:31:23 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 11, 2014, 07:42:33 PM

Hey I'm new to MMM but not new to the quest to retire early.  I'm 45, married and have two boys in college. 
We have our mortage paid off and have a little over 1 million saved in retirement accounts. 
My goal is to retire before 50, which I reach in 2018.
Being debt free is wonderful.   Get it done.

This is my first MMM post, it's from 2014 and a million dollars more in net worth.   I'm just as finance dumb as I was then!  I blame YOU people.   This shit is easy and you absolutely don't need to be smart.  You can hate spreadsheets and still get here.  I have no advice to give, John Bogle gave me this gift.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 13, 2019, 01:17:34 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 13, 2019, 08:31:23 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 11, 2014, 07:42:33 PM

Hey I'm new to MMM but not new to the quest to retire early.  I'm 45, married and have two boys in college. 
We have our mortage paid off and have a little over 1 million saved in retirement accounts. 
My goal is to retire before 50, which I reach in 2018.
Being debt free is wonderful.   Get it done.

This is my first MMM post, it's from 2014 and a million dollars more in net worth.   I'm just as finance dumb as I was then!  I blame YOU people.   This shit is easy and you absolutely don't need to be smart.  You can hate spreadsheets and still get here.  I have no advice to give, John Bogle gave me this gift.

Nice.. You sound pretty finance savvy to me...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 13, 2019, 01:56:14 PM

Awesome sh&t

It been an incredible ride since 2014. I have been bantering on  these forums from around the same time.

So many things (mostly “initially” non financial) got in the way of the goal.

Being here 5 years down the road marks us as peeps that can set aside the noise and plot head on to the destination. Yeeehaaaa

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 14, 2019, 03:02:05 AM

I wanta say it was around 2014 I joined here as well. Not sure how to look that up but be some reasons of deduction 13 or 14.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on June 14, 2019, 08:36:59 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on June 14, 2019, 03:02:05 AM

I wanta say it was around 2014 I joined here as well. Not sure how to look that up but be some reasons of deduction 13 or 14.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/profile/?u=8328.  The Profile button near the top of the screen. Says: 2014

soccerluvof4
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Posts: 4833 (2.451 per day)Personal Text: Retired at 50Gender: MaleAge:N/ALocation:Artic Midwest
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Signature:" In life you don't get what you deserve you get what you negotiate"


Also available to other users by clicking on your username.  I've seen it used to detect if users AWOL from a thread are still active. Example: thorstache for the Top Is IN thread.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on June 14, 2019, 09:55:18 AM

Ooh, you just beat me! I registered 11 Feb 2014.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 14, 2019, 10:42:02 AM

A few of us around that time I think.. I registered on Oct 1st 2013. My first journal post was Jan 9th 2014.. The first day of my (first) retirement..:).

I am so thankful that I was already FI when I first stumbled on MMM.. If I would have had to wait/save for several years that would have been tough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on June 15, 2019, 07:01:54 AM

I found MMM early 2014 and posted my first thread with the start of my journal in July 2014. Back then my NW was slightly over £800k (with the FX at the time pre-Brexit). I was just starting on my mustachian journey.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/my-journal-to-$4-5m-nw-(ex-$13m)

Almost 5years later our NW jumped to £2.1m and our spending habits have changed diametrically opposite to our income growth... a powerful combination

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 16, 2019, 06:12:13 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on June 14, 2019, 08:36:59 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on June 14, 2019, 03:02:05 AM

I wanta say it was around 2014 I joined here as well. Not sure how to look that up but be some reasons of deduction 13 or 14.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/profile/?u=8328.  The Profile button near the top of the screen. Says: 2014

soccerluvof4
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My Journal
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Posts: 4833 (2.451 per day)Personal Text: Retired at 50Gender: MaleAge:N/ALocation:Artic Midwest
Date Registered: January 18, 2014, 09:36:49 AMLocal Time:June 14, 2019, 08:37:33 AMLast Active: Today at 04:42:53 AM
Signature:" In life you don't get what you deserve you get what you negotiate"


Also available to other users by clicking on your username.  I've seen it used to detect if users AWOL from a thread are still active. Example: thorstache for the Top Is IN thread.

Awesome! Thank you very much for that so 5 years ago. That went quick!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 16, 2019, 09:38:15 AM

I joined May 26. 2014.   That apparently was a very good year to join MMM! 

Bateaux, I just got back from a few weeks in rural France and we enjoyed canoeing down the Arles river in a bateaux.  There are bateaux rentals everywhere in that area and I thought of you every time I saw the word. 
 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 16, 2019, 06:59:40 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 16, 2019, 09:38:15 AM

I joined May 26. 2014.   That apparently was a very good year to join MMM! 

Bateaux, I just got back from a few weeks in rural France and we enjoyed canoeing down the Arles river in a bateaux.  There are bateaux rentals everywhere in that area and I thought of you every time I saw the word.

My boat fetish is part of the reason, I'm still having to work.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 17, 2019, 12:45:49 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 07, 2019, 08:36:08 AM

Curious, for those of you that have RE'd with this level of investments and are buying insurance on the ACA, how do dividends and capital gains affect your premiums/subsidy for your insurance? Does it change your insurance expense each year?

Trying to figure this all out now as I'm likely FIREing soon, primarily figuring income and its effects on ACA (for a family of 5 like mine you have to have like six figures of income to get no subsidy, and there are obviously lots of levels down to the point of what you pay is minimal) and the FAFSA (as my kids are spread out enough they'll likely be in school for at least 2020 thru 2032, and the ability to have net worth ignored if your income is below a certain amount makes it worth spending time tinkering).

One consideration is you don't always know what the distributions will be very far ahead of time given the varying year end cap gains distributions for many funds.  One consideration is there are ways to invest in equities in a somewhat diversified manner without getting dividends and forced distributed cap gains (e.g. Berkshire hathaway stock).  One consideration is hard lines you dont want to cross versus sliding scales (not crossing the income level for FAFSA ignoring assets versus the sliding scale of the ACA subsidies.).  One consideration is that you can control recognized cap gains from the sale of funds to receive cash to spend, which includes bunching in years, having different funds with different percentage gains available, etc. for taxable accts, and separately control income from retirement accounts you hit early with a SEPP.

I'm just saying there's a lot to consider, but you have to have a ton of assets to get to the point its not worth thinking about.  I have approx $2M in taxable and $1M in retirement.  Of the $2M taxable, it gives off about $35k in dividends, but I've seen the year end distributed gain vary greatly from near zero to not that far from the dividend amount.  And I do keep 10% in cash, so its always possible for me to not sell anything for a year or two, but I eventually have to sell something, and of the stuff I could sell I have options with little gain and other with lots percentage-wise.  So its easy to see my income in a year being $35k, and easy to see how it could be $80k, and the difference between the two can have drastic consequences for ACA and FAFSA results.

Its a complex evaluation and one worth working your way thru.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 18, 2019, 07:00:48 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 17, 2019, 12:45:49 PM

So its easy to see my income in a year being $35k, and easy to see how it could be $80k, and the difference between the two can have drastic consequences for ACA and FAFSA results.

I don't understand your FAFSA reference.  $2M in countable assets yields $112k in EFC (ignoring allowance).  What this means, before considering your income or the kid's income and assets is that you get nothing until you've paid $112k towards college in a year.

There are certainly things you can do with that $2M.  If you have any debts or mortgage, certainly you'd want to pay them all.  But unless there's a huge mortgage, it's not going to do much to qualify you for any aid beyond Stafford loans.

I know nothing about ACA.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on June 18, 2019, 08:04:21 AM

I believe if the investments are in retirement accounts then they are shielded from FASFA calculations. So spend down the taxable account first do you can look poor to colleges on paper by the time the kids are old enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 18, 2019, 08:36:40 AM

For those of us with significant assets outside of retirement accounts (taxable brokerage, home equity, a business), FAFSA is a very difficult system to game, especially if we like our dividends, interest, and capital gains income.  I'm also interested in what your strategy is @Much Fishing to Do ...

ACA subsidy is the larger opportunity for ERs since you can have significant income and unlimited wealth and still receive a subsidy.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on June 18, 2019, 10:04:32 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 18, 2019, 08:36:40 AM

For those of us with significant assets outside of retirement accounts (taxable brokerage, home equity, a business), FAFSA is a very difficult system to game, especially if we like our dividends, interest, and capital gains income.  I'm also interested in what your strategy is @Much Fishing to Do ...

ACA subsidy is the larger opportunity for ERs since you can have significant income and unlimited wealth and still receive a subsidy.

I thought home equity was sheltered also. Am I mistaken?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 18, 2019, 10:11:45 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on June 18, 2019, 10:04:32 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 18, 2019, 08:36:40 AM

For those of us with significant assets outside of retirement accounts (taxable brokerage, home equity, a business), FAFSA is a very difficult system to game, especially if we like our dividends, interest, and capital gains income.  I'm also interested in what your strategy is @Much Fishing to Do ...

ACA subsidy is the larger opportunity for ERs since you can have significant income and unlimited wealth and still receive a subsidy.

I thought home equity was sheltered also. Am I mistaken?

Net home equity is not sheltered - http://www.finaid.org/calculators/finaidestimate.phtml (but, like many FAFSA issues, it is a complicated situation.  It IS sheltered for Federal purposes apparently, so you can get the federal loans, but is not sheltered for institutional purposes, so you'll get less financial aid.  I mostly focus on the financial aid part.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on June 18, 2019, 10:25:19 AM

I'm sorry, how can you have significant income and still receive a subsidy?  I thought subsidies were income-based? 

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 18, 2019, 08:36:40 AM

For those of us with significant assets outside of retirement accounts (taxable brokerage, home equity, a business), FAFSA is a very difficult system to game, especially if we like our dividends, interest, and capital gains income.  I'm also interested in what your strategy is @Much Fishing to Do ...

ACA subsidy is the larger opportunity for ERs since you can have significant income and unlimited wealth and still receive a subsidy.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on June 18, 2019, 10:37:41 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 18, 2019, 10:11:45 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on June 18, 2019, 10:04:32 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 18, 2019, 08:36:40 AM

For those of us with significant assets outside of retirement accounts (taxable brokerage, home equity, a business), FAFSA is a very difficult system to game, especially if we like our dividends, interest, and capital gains income.  I'm also interested in what your strategy is @Much Fishing to Do ...

ACA subsidy is the larger opportunity for ERs since you can have significant income and unlimited wealth and still receive a subsidy.

I thought home equity was sheltered also. Am I mistaken?

Net home equity is not sheltered - http://www.finaid.org/calculators/finaidestimate.phtml (but, like many FAFSA issues, it is a complicated situation.  It IS sheltered for Federal purposes apparently, so you can get the federal loans, but is not sheltered for institutional purposes, so you'll get less financial aid.  I mostly focus on the financial aid part.)

Ahhh. That sucks. Not interested in federal loans either. Thankfully we have a long tone to figure this out

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 19, 2019, 01:00:10 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 18, 2019, 07:00:48 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 17, 2019, 12:45:49 PM

So its easy to see my income in a year being $35k, and easy to see how it could be $80k, and the difference between the two can have drastic consequences for ACA and FAFSA results.

I don't understand your FAFSA reference.  $2M in countable assets yields $112k in EFC (ignoring allowance).  What this means, before considering your income or the kid's income and assets is that you get nothing until you've paid $112k towards college in a year.

There are certainly things you can do with that $2M.  If you have any debts or mortgage, certainly you'd want to pay them all.  But unless there's a huge mortgage, it's not going to do much to qualify you for any aid beyond Stafford loans.

I know nothing about ACA.

The FAFSA doesn't look at your assets under a certain income threshold (I think its $50k), so the $2M is no longer countable if you do it right.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 19, 2019, 01:07:41 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 18, 2019, 08:36:40 AM

For those of us with significant assets outside of retirement accounts (taxable brokerage, home equity, a business), FAFSA is a very difficult system to game, especially if we like our dividends, interest, and capital gains income.  I'm also interested in what your strategy is @Much Fishing to Do ...

ACA subsidy is the larger opportunity for ERs since you can have significant income and unlimited wealth and still receive a subsidy.

My strategy is to try to get income below $50k (for at least some years) and meet other criteria so I can use the simplified assets test and they be assumed as $0.  It will not be easy and maybe not worth it, but looks possible.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 19, 2019, 01:27:36 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 19, 2019, 01:07:41 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 18, 2019, 08:36:40 AM

For those of us with significant assets outside of retirement accounts (taxable brokerage, home equity, a business), FAFSA is a very difficult system to game, especially if we like our dividends, interest, and capital gains income.  I'm also interested in what your strategy is @Much Fishing to Do ...

ACA subsidy is the larger opportunity for ERs since you can have significant income and unlimited wealth and still receive a subsidy.

My strategy is to try to get income below $50k (for at least some years) and meet other criteria so I can use the simplified assets test and they be assumed as $0.  It will not be easy and maybe not worth it, but looks possible.

Getting income low enough is another reason we're having to work a bit longer.  There are some expenses we need to knock out first.  Then we can live pretty cheap.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 19, 2019, 01:56:42 PM

We didn't try to game the FASFA, just focused on Merit scholarships, etc.  We had too many assets since the rentals and personal banking counted. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 19, 2019, 06:41:59 PM

My first son is finishing up a few courses right now at his private college.  Along with FAFSA and CSS only the first year, there was a college application for college aid.  Things on either CSS or the college form included:

Insurance with cash value.
Value of home.
Value of cars.
Value of boats, motorcycles, snowmobiles, jet skis or any other vehicles.
Value of collectibles.
Any 529 owned by anyone with son as beneficiary.
Any money already paid towards college by anyone other than parent or student.

They certainly catch the loop holes where FAFSA is easy to game.

My younger son starts college in the fall.  I've let him and my wife know that they're welcome to fill out FAFSA.  I'm done with all that work for literally zero.  Getting EFCs of $93,000 every year drives it pretty hard that I've simply been wasting my time with it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 21, 2019, 11:55:44 AM

I’ve got a lot of reading to do on the FAFSA, but I don’t think there is much hope for us. We’ve got $1.3in retirement and $1M in cash. And kids ages 10 and 6 have $30k and $20k respectively in their 529s. Our home equity is only about $100k. If DH keeps working he will have tuition covered at the University he works for. Of course that benefit can never be considered guaranteed so at some point I should probably do some research to see if there is anything we can do to shelter some assets.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 22, 2019, 02:59:01 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 21, 2019, 11:55:44 AM

I’ve got a lot of reading to do on the FAFSA, but I don’t think there is much hope for us. We’ve got $1.3in retirement and $1M in cash. And kids ages 10 and 6 have $30k and $20k respectively in their 529s. Our home equity is only about $100k. If DH keeps working he will have tuition covered at the University he works for. Of course that benefit can never be considered guaranteed so at some point I should probably do some research to see if there is anything we can do to shelter some assets.

It's also possible that the rules will change in 6 or 7 years making it easier for your children to get an education.  No reason to be too pessimistic.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 24, 2019, 06:09:53 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 21, 2019, 11:55:44 AM

I’ve got a lot of reading to do on the FAFSA, but I don’t think there is much hope for us. We’ve got $1.3in retirement and $1M in cash. And kids ages 10 and 6 have $30k and $20k respectively in their 529s. Our home equity is only about $100k. If DH keeps working he will have tuition covered at the University he works for. Of course that benefit can never be considered guaranteed so at some point I should probably do some research to see if there is anything we can do to shelter some assets.

Were a bit above that and still my kids always have qualified for minimum 5k so still worth filling it out. Usually its been 5-8k but still better than taking on other loans.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 24, 2019, 10:33:51 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 18, 2019, 10:11:45 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on June 18, 2019, 10:04:32 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 18, 2019, 08:36:40 AM

For those of us with significant assets outside of retirement accounts (taxable brokerage, home equity, a business), FAFSA is a very difficult system to game, especially if we like our dividends, interest, and capital gains income.  I'm also interested in what your strategy is @Much Fishing to Do ...

ACA subsidy is the larger opportunity for ERs since you can have significant income and unlimited wealth and still receive a subsidy.

I thought home equity was sheltered also. Am I mistaken?

Net home equity is not sheltered - http://www.finaid.org/calculators/finaidestimate.phtml (but, like many FAFSA issues, it is a complicated situation.  It IS sheltered for Federal purposes apparently, so you can get the federal loans, but is not sheltered for institutional purposes, so you'll get less financial aid.  I mostly focus on the financial aid part.)

I think I'm confused about what you're referring to.  For FAFSA-only colleges, home equity isn't looked at.  This is why one strategy is to move any "available assets" to pay down any mortgage.  This converts available assets to invisible assets.

For private colleges, absolutely...many look at everything.

Also be aware that many colleges give zero merit aid for students transferring in.  So in some cases a strategy of going 2 years to community college, then transferring into a 4 year school can blow up on you financially.  Especially transferring into an expensive, private college.  (been there, done that)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 24, 2019, 11:10:32 AM

@Car Jack - I admit that it is complicated and I'm not at the point that I've brushed up on all the details, but my back-up is included in the link and the hedging statement I made in parenthesis that there are different situations.  You are correct that home equity is not always counted, but it looked more like hiding assets only helps you get a loan, not direct financial aid from the school.  I appreciate all of the anecdotes people have contributed - I had considered the local college then transfer trick (just had a niece drop out Freshman year at a 40k private college), so it's good to be aware it blows up chances for merit based aid.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 24, 2019, 08:44:36 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 24, 2019, 11:10:32 AM

@Car Jack - I admit that it is complicated and I'm not at the point that I've brushed up on all the details, but my back-up is included in the link and the hedging statement I made in parenthesis that there are different situations.  You are correct that home equity is not always counted, but it looked more like hiding assets only helps you get a loan, not direct financial aid from the school.  I appreciate all of the anecdotes people have contributed - I had considered the local college then transfer trick (just had a niece drop out Freshman year at a 40k private college), so it's good to be aware it blows up chances for merit based aid.

Perhaps for SOME merit based aid, but this strategy worked for us.  We (my daughter) received many (6?) scholarships that totalled about 1/2 of her tuition.   Our son is going the Community college for 2 years route.  He got one small scholarship and was not as motivated as she was to apply for more.   We consider both strategies viable.  Both reduced our costs by about 50%.   The community college route will save money on tuition for those first 2 years, and so is a more sure bet. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 25, 2019, 06:59:16 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 24, 2019, 08:44:36 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 24, 2019, 11:10:32 AM

@Car Jack - I admit that it is complicated and I'm not at the point that I've brushed up on all the details, but my back-up is included in the link and the hedging statement I made in parenthesis that there are different situations.  You are correct that home equity is not always counted, but it looked more like hiding assets only helps you get a loan, not direct financial aid from the school.  I appreciate all of the anecdotes people have contributed - I had considered the local college then transfer trick (just had a niece drop out Freshman year at a 40k private college), so it's good to be aware it blows up chances for merit based aid.

Perhaps for SOME merit based aid, but this strategy worked for us.  We (my daughter) received many (6?) scholarships that totalled about 1/2 of her tuition.   Our son is going the Community college for 2 years route.  He got one small scholarship and was not as motivated as she was to apply for more.   We consider both strategies viable.  Both reduced our costs by about 50%.   The community college route will save money on tuition for those first 2 years, and so is a more sure bet.

No disagreement.  My younger son starts community college in the fall and plans to transfer after 2 years to an in state public college.  He would not qualify for merit aid anyways.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 25, 2019, 08:12:55 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on June 24, 2019, 06:09:53 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 21, 2019, 11:55:44 AM

I’ve got a lot of reading to do on the FAFSA, but I don’t think there is much hope for us. We’ve got $1.3in retirement and $1M in cash. And kids ages 10 and 6 have $30k and $20k respectively in their 529s. Our home equity is only about $100k. If DH keeps working he will have tuition covered at the University he works for. Of course that benefit can never be considered guaranteed so at some point I should probably do some research to see if there is anything we can do to shelter some assets.

Were a bit above that and still my kids always have qualified for minimum 5k so still worth filling it out. Usually its been 5-8k but still better than taking on other loans.

So do they count brokerage investments and 529 money but NOT retirement?
Anyway, it is all interesting to note but we do still have 10 years to go before the first child is college bound. I'm sure lots of stuff can and will change.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 25, 2019, 08:21:39 AM

So we just got back from our big trip out West to Yellowstone and Grand Teton. It was amazing. And it gave me so much clarity on my decision to RE spring of 2020.
The trip in combination with the Go Curry Cracker post on "Worst Retirement Ever" that someone posted up thread really boosted my positive thinking about RE. That was a really good read and it helped me to realize that we have plenty of money and are young enough to be very flexible. In fact while we were in Yellowstone both DH and I had several people recommend that we consider applying to do seasonal work there. And we both thought it was a great idea.
Anyway, travel,  man it really opens the mind. I've never felt so relaxed as I did on that trip. So while before I was really worried about how to RE with kids, I'm now feeling like we can totally figure this out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 25, 2019, 12:18:32 PM

@BeanCounter Good for you.. It takes a while to get this straight in your head.. Like several years of doing this and lo and behold its just fine.. My NW has doubled in the 5 years since RE and sure, there was some earning during that time but "only" $150k or so which is trivial compared with the market growth.

It will be awesome..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 25, 2019, 04:53:53 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 25, 2019, 12:18:32 PM

@BeanCounter Good for you.. It takes a while to get this straight in your head.. Like several years of doing this and lo and behold its just fine.. My NW has doubled in the 5 years since RE and sure, there was some earning during that time but "only" $150k or so which is trivial compared with the market growth.

It will be awesome..:)

Maybe so - awesome - Dow Jones edged down today, but hit a new record high a few days ago.

I do note inflation seems to be edging the prices of things up.  The price of real estate seems to have rebounded and home prices are rising in my area.  The dollar has been holding its own against the Euro.

Times seem good in the near horizon.  Donald had the good sense to avoid a war despite his buds urging him on.

That National Park gig noted by the Beancounter sounds like a mighty fine deal.  If I set myself free at the end of the year, I may look into that one myself.  Seems like a fitting place for riding into the sunset.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 25, 2019, 05:24:52 PM

Yup and don't forget to keep a few years in bond funds to draw on during the down years.

for example.. a 60/40 split on a 4% WR will give you 10 years worth of bonds. This will be enough to ride out all but the very worst of recessions.

If you like a little more risk/ capital growth.. an 80/20 split would give you 5 years. Still enough to ride out most recessions.

The above assumes bonds do not change in value during down years of course which is plainly untrue.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 26, 2019, 02:45:42 AM

I too have dived into post FIRE planning buying up a few tickets for the Olympics in Tokyo next year. It will make for something fun to do when not working..... 😁

Of course, being the indecisive clown that I am, there remains a small chance that I take a job offer in the US for one final fling before FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 26, 2019, 07:14:15 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 25, 2019, 05:24:52 PM

Yup and don't forget to keep a few years in bond funds to draw on during the down years.

for example.. a 60/40 split on a 4% WR will give you 10 years worth of bonds. This will be enough to ride out all but the very worst of recessions.

If you like a little more risk/ capital growth.. an 80/20 split would give you 5 years. Still enough to ride out most recessions.

The above assumes bonds do not change in value during down years of course which is plainly untrue.

Good advice about the bonds.  A re-balance may be in order as I can't see this upward trend continuing for too much longer.  The saturation point may soon be upon us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on June 26, 2019, 10:37:18 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 26, 2019, 07:14:15 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 25, 2019, 05:24:52 PM

Yup and don't forget to keep a few years in bond funds to draw on during the down years.

for example.. a 60/40 split on a 4% WR will give you 10 years worth of bonds. This will be enough to ride out all but the very worst of recessions.

If you like a little more risk/ capital growth.. an 80/20 split would give you 5 years. Still enough to ride out most recessions.

The above assumes bonds do not change in value during down years of course which is plainly untrue.

Good advice about the bonds.  A re-balance may be in order as I can't see this upward trend continuing for too much longer. The saturation point may soon be upon us. The TOP IS IN!

Fixed that for you.

Edit: Link to the referenced thread as noted by @soccerluvof4 in the comment just following.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/top-is-in/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 27, 2019, 04:10:55 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on June 26, 2019, 10:37:18 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 26, 2019, 07:14:15 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 25, 2019, 05:24:52 PM

Yup and don't forget to keep a few years in bond funds to draw on during the down years.

for example.. a 60/40 split on a 4% WR will give you 10 years worth of bonds. This will be enough to ride out all but the very worst of recessions.

If you like a little more risk/ capital growth.. an 80/20 split would give you 5 years. Still enough to ride out most recessions.

The above assumes bonds do not change in value during down years of course which is plainly untrue.

Good advice about the bonds.  A re-balance may be in order as I can't see this upward trend continuing for too much longer. The saturation point may soon be upon us. The TOP IS IN!

Fixed that for you.

I believe there is a whole thread dedicated to the top is in that started several years ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on June 27, 2019, 11:15:29 AM

Something only people here in this group would understand.

Uh oh, I figured out something bothersome (or first world problem-ish == depends on your view point) last night about my retirement balances.  I'm trying to stay in the 22% tax bracket today without going into higher brackets when I retire and hit 70 and must take RMDs (or 72 if the bill in congress passes).  As well I would like not to have to be punished with IRMAA tax hits as well.

So with a ton of assumptions I figured out an expected yearly income with pension, SSI & dividends if I wait for SSI until 70 (13 years from now).   And then figured out how much I could have in my 457 plan as pre-tax amounts with the required RMD percentages before my RMDs would kick me into a tax bracket above 22%.  What I found is I am right at that tipping point now!  I can put in money as Roth today, and am doing so now with 90% of my contributions.  So what's the problem?  I can up it to 100%, but I am going to be close this year with my dividends where I may go into the 24% bracket as is.  And I am getting an extra 4% raise in July, so any tax headroom in the 22% bracket this year is pretty much gone (unless I go pre-tax).   

I could sell losers out of my brokerage, but I only have two, and they aren't that much of a loss.  And yes, I plan on doing Roth conversions once I retire but I won't have many years where that will be substantial.  (I will not only get a pension but a supplement until I am 67 so I am not going to have many years or much room to convert even at 22% tax rate)

Yeah, first world problems.  My GF said to just suck it up and pay the 24% today if needed.  I am thinking I will try to stay just within the 22% bracket, and hope I can convert more to Roth at 22% in retirement than I am expecting.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on June 27, 2019, 01:42:10 PM

At least you saved taxes by not having to pay the old 25% tax bracket.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 27, 2019, 03:06:48 PM

You better move to a non income tax state as well.

As @lhamo pointed out.. the ACA subsidies are a huge benefit if you can keep your income low. Personally I have chosen to kick the can down the road and make our MAGI roughly $30k which means we pay almost nothing for our Bronze plan (About what its worth IMHO).

This means I will only have between 65 and 70  to do Roth conversions. The end result is I will be paying a ton of taxes at 70 and my "poor" Wife will get hit even harder when I fall off the perch and she can no longer do MFJ.

(Note she has mentioned marrying the "pool boy" after I croak).

I guess for me at least taxes are really not that big of a deal.. Taxes 13 years from now even less so.. I mean assuming 8% growth, if you have $2M now, you might be hitting around $5.5 million by then.. Roth converting your way out of that might be a challenge.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on June 27, 2019, 03:41:23 PM

Quote from: lhamo on June 27, 2019, 01:21:45 PM

You do understand how marginal tax rates work, right?  You are only paying the extra 2% tax on whatever you earn/convert over the top of the 22% bracket.  Nothing worth getting your knickers in a twist over.

Also, assuming you are still working and have health insurance through work, it is probably WAAAAY better to pay those taxes now.  Because if/when you are on an ACA plan you have to be MUCH more careful not to fall off the various subsidy cliffs -- the hit from those can be huge, much worse than a 2% marginal tax increase.

Oh I understand how the taxes work.  Just the principle of the thing, I want to avoid the next bracket if I can.

As for ACA, I plan on marrying my GF who is a Fed retiree and when I do that I will be able to get her health insurance, so I'm not looking to the ACA for anything.  I can get retiree health insurance through my employer, but its probably about the same as going onto the ACA, so I'll be ok in any case.

As for taxes, yeah we will be looking into where to live to minimize state taxes.  Some will exempt pensions so its hard to say at this point where we will end up.

I just was trying to optimize things and found it will be harder than I thought.  So goes life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 27, 2019, 04:47:09 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 27, 2019, 03:06:48 PM

(Note she has mentioned marrying the "pool boy" after I croak).

Wait! I thought you were the pool boy! What the hell?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 27, 2019, 05:36:20 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 27, 2019, 04:47:09 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 27, 2019, 03:06:48 PM

(Note she has mentioned marrying the "pool boy" after I croak).

Wait! I thought you were the pool boy! What the hell?

This is, after all, MMM.  Rich or poor, we clean our own pools around here.

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on June 27, 2019, 05:47:05 PM

Wait, we are allowed to have pools around here?

Or are you talking about this kind of pool?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190627/7feda06ceb4fd7f34c2e050b9e66e89a.jpg)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 28, 2019, 05:32:31 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on June 27, 2019, 05:47:05 PM

Wait, we are allowed to have pools around here?

Or are you talking about this kind of pool?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190627/7feda06ceb4fd7f34c2e050b9e66e89a.jpg)

who needs Sea World with a pool like that!?! haha

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 28, 2019, 05:59:54 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on June 27, 2019, 03:41:23 PM

Quote from: lhamo on June 27, 2019, 01:21:45 PM

You do understand how marginal tax rates work, right?  You are only paying the extra 2% tax on whatever you earn/convert over the top of the 22% bracket.  Nothing worth getting your knickers in a twist over.

Also, assuming you are still working and have health insurance through work, it is probably WAAAAY better to pay those taxes now.  Because if/when you are on an ACA plan you have to be MUCH more careful not to fall off the various subsidy cliffs -- the hit from those can be huge, much worse than a 2% marginal tax increase.

Oh I understand how the taxes work.  Just the principle of the thing, I want to avoid the next bracket if I can.

As for ACA, I plan on marrying my GF who is a Fed retiree and when I do that I will be able to get her health insurance, so I'm not looking to the ACA for anything.  I can get retiree health insurance through my employer, but its probably about the same as going onto the ACA, so I'll be ok in any case.

As for taxes, yeah we will be looking into where to live to minimize state taxes.  Some will exempt pensions so its hard to say at this point where we will end up.

I just was trying to optimize things and found it will be harder than I thought.  So goes life.

Make sure you marry 5 years before she retires.

I actually had the same discussion with my Financial Advisor except I am trying to avoid the 32% tax bracket.  He helped me to see with deductions that is not going to be an issue with me.  Another reason to be in the Don't pay off your mortgage club, the $6,000 in interest helps keep me below that threshold while my income is high.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 28, 2019, 06:09:20 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on June 28, 2019, 05:59:54 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on June 27, 2019, 03:41:23 PM

Quote from: lhamo on June 27, 2019, 01:21:45 PM

You do understand how marginal tax rates work, right?  You are only paying the extra 2% tax on whatever you earn/convert over the top of the 22% bracket.  Nothing worth getting your knickers in a twist over.

Also, assuming you are still working and have health insurance through work, it is probably WAAAAY better to pay those taxes now.  Because if/when you are on an ACA plan you have to be MUCH more careful not to fall off the various subsidy cliffs -- the hit from those can be huge, much worse than a 2% marginal tax increase.

Oh I understand how the taxes work.  Just the principle of the thing, I want to avoid the next bracket if I can.

As for ACA, I plan on marrying my GF who is a Fed retiree and when I do that I will be able to get her health insurance, so I'm not looking to the ACA for anything.  I can get retiree health insurance through my employer, but its probably about the same as going onto the ACA, so I'll be ok in any case.

As for taxes, yeah we will be looking into where to live to minimize state taxes.  Some will exempt pensions so its hard to say at this point where we will end up.

I just was trying to optimize things and found it will be harder than I thought.  So goes life.

Make sure you marry 5 years before she retires.

I actually had the same discussion with my Financial Advisor except I am trying to avoid the 32% tax bracket.  He helped me to see with deductions that is not going to be an issue with me.  Another reason to be in the Don't pay off your mortgage club, the $6,000 in interest helps keep me below that threshold while my income is high.

Love it!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 28, 2019, 07:25:09 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 28, 2019, 06:09:20 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on June 28, 2019, 05:59:54 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on June 27, 2019, 03:41:23 PM

Quote from: lhamo on June 27, 2019, 01:21:45 PM

You do understand how marginal tax rates work, right?  You are only paying the extra 2% tax on whatever you earn/convert over the top of the 22% bracket.  Nothing worth getting your knickers in a twist over.

Also, assuming you are still working and have health insurance through work, it is probably WAAAAY better to pay those taxes now.  Because if/when you are on an ACA plan you have to be MUCH more careful not to fall off the various subsidy cliffs -- the hit from those can be huge, much worse than a 2% marginal tax increase.

Oh I understand how the taxes work.  Just the principle of the thing, I want to avoid the next bracket if I can.

As for ACA, I plan on marrying my GF who is a Fed retiree and when I do that I will be able to get her health insurance, so I'm not looking to the ACA for anything.  I can get retiree health insurance through my employer, but its probably about the same as going onto the ACA, so I'll be ok in any case.

As for taxes, yeah we will be looking into where to live to minimize state taxes.  Some will exempt pensions so its hard to say at this point where we will end up.

I just was trying to optimize things and found it will be harder than I thought.  So goes life.

Make sure you marry 5 years before she retires.

I actually had the same discussion with my Financial Advisor except I am trying to avoid the 32% tax bracket.  He helped me to see with deductions that is not going to be an issue with me.  Another reason to be in the Don't pay off your mortgage club, the $6,000 in interest helps keep me below that threshold while my income is high.

Love it!

I admit, I knew you would as I was writing it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 28, 2019, 08:45:28 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on June 28, 2019, 05:59:54 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on June 27, 2019, 03:41:23 PM

Quote from: lhamo on June 27, 2019, 01:21:45 PM

You do understand how marginal tax rates work, right?  You are only paying the extra 2% tax on whatever you earn/convert over the top of the 22% bracket.  Nothing worth getting your knickers in a twist over.

Also, assuming you are still working and have health insurance through work, it is probably WAAAAY better to pay those taxes now.  Because if/when you are on an ACA plan you have to be MUCH more careful not to fall off the various subsidy cliffs -- the hit from those can be huge, much worse than a 2% marginal tax increase.

Oh I understand how the taxes work.  Just the principle of the thing, I want to avoid the next bracket if I can.

As for ACA, I plan on marrying my GF who is a Fed retiree and when I do that I will be able to get her health insurance, so I'm not looking to the ACA for anything.  I can get retiree health insurance through my employer, but its probably about the same as going onto the ACA, so I'll be ok in any case.

As for taxes, yeah we will be looking into where to live to minimize state taxes.  Some will exempt pensions so its hard to say at this point where we will end up.

I just was trying to optimize things and found it will be harder than I thought.  So goes life.

Make sure you marry 5 years before she retires.

I actually had the same discussion with my Financial Advisor except I am trying to avoid the 32% tax bracket.  He helped me to see with deductions that is not going to be an issue with me.  Another reason to be in the Don't pay off your mortgage club, the $6,000 in interest helps keep me below that threshold while my income is high.

How is this possible given the new standard deductions?
I'm in the don't pay off your mortgage club, but with the new standard deductions it did not provide us enough to itemize in 2018.

For 2019 I set up a charitable foundation in our name with Fidelity. I'm going to donate some appreciated stock of about $16k and that plus my mortgage and property taxes will get us over the standard deduction amount. Then in the coming year(s) we can do all our donating out of that account instead of writing personal checks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 28, 2019, 09:44:19 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 28, 2019, 08:45:28 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on June 28, 2019, 05:59:54 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on June 27, 2019, 03:41:23 PM

Make sure you marry 5 years before she retires.

I actually had the same discussion with my Financial Advisor except I am trying to avoid the 32% tax bracket.  He helped me to see with deductions that is not going to be an issue with me.  Another reason to be in the Don't pay off your mortgage club, the $6,000 in interest helps keep me below that threshold while my income is high.

How is this possible given the new standard deductions?
I'm in the don't pay off your mortgage club, but with the new standard deductions it did not provide us enough to itemize in 2018.

For 2019 I set up a charitable foundation in our name with Fidelity. I'm going to donate some appreciated stock of about $16k and that plus my mortgage and property taxes will get us over the standard deduction amount. Then in the coming year(s) we can do all our donating out of that account instead of writing personal checks.

I am single, new standard deduction is $12,000 for me.  My SALT taxes (State income plus property) are slightly more than $10,000 after my first $2000 to charity or mortgage interest takes me past the standard.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 28, 2019, 10:14:30 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on June 28, 2019, 07:25:09 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 28, 2019, 06:09:20 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on June 28, 2019, 05:59:54 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on June 27, 2019, 03:41:23 PM

Quote from: lhamo on June 27, 2019, 01:21:45 PM

You do understand how marginal tax rates work, right?  You are only paying the extra 2% tax on whatever you earn/convert over the top of the 22% bracket.  Nothing worth getting your knickers in a twist over.

Also, assuming you are still working and have health insurance through work, it is probably WAAAAY better to pay those taxes now.  Because if/when you are on an ACA plan you have to be MUCH more careful not to fall off the various subsidy cliffs -- the hit from those can be huge, much worse than a 2% marginal tax increase.

Oh I understand how the taxes work.  Just the principle of the thing, I want to avoid the next bracket if I can.

As for ACA, I plan on marrying my GF who is a Fed retiree and when I do that I will be able to get her health insurance, so I'm not looking to the ACA for anything.  I can get retiree health insurance through my employer, but its probably about the same as going onto the ACA, so I'll be ok in any case.

As for taxes, yeah we will be looking into where to live to minimize state taxes.  Some will exempt pensions so its hard to say at this point where we will end up.

I just was trying to optimize things and found it will be harder than I thought.  So goes life.

Make sure you marry 5 years before she retires.

I actually had the same discussion with my Financial Advisor except I am trying to avoid the 32% tax bracket.  He helped me to see with deductions that is not going to be an issue with me.  Another reason to be in the Don't pay off your mortgage club, the $6,000 in interest helps keep me below that threshold while my income is high.

Love it!

I admit, I knew you would as I was writing it.

Way to make my day!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 28, 2019, 04:55:36 PM

The Dow shot back up today.
S&P went up today.
Nasdaq composite went up today.

It is the best of times.  It is the worst of times.

When I retire, I'm going to finally read that book.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 28, 2019, 05:20:59 PM

Doesn't matter.. Roger the pool boy is going to spend it all anyway!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on June 28, 2019, 05:44:08 PM

I had the same experience with Zillow so now I have to discount it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BTDretire on June 28, 2019, 06:57:27 PM

I poked my address into Zillow and got $155,900. I'm pretty sure that is about 25% low, maybe even more, and it actually went down $2,334 in the last 30 days. Also they say it will rent for $1,975 per month and that went up $180 in the last 30 days.
 Also noted the picture they have is not long after the hurricane, roof is cover in blue plastic, the 100ft of road frontage is either covered with tree debris or construction debris.
 Oh well, I'm not selling, and just about done with repairs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 29, 2019, 03:20:01 AM

So you peaked my interest and though its states market VERY HOT mine dropped 5k but still slightly over 300k and know that is low but 300k is what I use anyhow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 29, 2019, 04:52:08 AM

Interesting. Mine went up $10k too. I don’t count our home in our NW. We’ve got to live somewhere!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on June 29, 2019, 08:50:36 AM

Huh, mine went up by over $100k in a couple of days. This means it is only $200k lower than Redfin. ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on June 29, 2019, 08:53:45 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on June 29, 2019, 08:50:36 AM

Huh, mine went up by over $100k in a couple of days. This means it is only $200k lower than Redfin. ;-)

Looking into their algorithm more I looked at the list of nearby recent sales that influence the estimate. One is from a house sold in 2002. Another is of a house in an entirely different city far away.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 29, 2019, 10:07:36 AM

Well, you guys inspired me to look up the flip house on Zillow. Oops. We bought it for $725 a year ago. I updated the property facts on Zillow, and the Zestimate jumped to $1M. When I just looked, the Zestimate was...wait for it...$731k. Wut?
It's the second biggest house on the court. All the other Zestimates on the street are from $1-$1.5M. There are two very recent comps in the neighborhood that are pending at $1.2, but both of them still  need work and ours is turnkey.  I'm not really worried, but WTF, Zillow?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Blindsquirrel on June 29, 2019, 12:33:28 PM

    Have had that happen also, Meh it is Zillow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on June 29, 2019, 12:55:03 PM

Just ran our mid-year NW numbers.  Net of expenses we are up 10% YTD. 

Our investment accounts are up 18 to 23% by category, but cash and home value (per Zillow) are down. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 01, 2019, 05:04:45 AM

Zillow dropped my house below what I paid for it to $271,000, in the same month that my same floor plan with a few different features sold for $72,000 more than I paid for my house at $352,000.  I should mention this was also in the middle of winter so not during peak buying season.  This month it appears they have decided that I guess it's back up over $300,000 again.

For net worth purposes, I use a completely arbitrary number of $300,000 I'm not sure at what point I will change that number up but it won't be based on zillow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 07:24:13 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 29, 2019, 10:07:36 AM

Well, you guys inspired me to look up the flip house on Zillow. Oops. We bought it for $725 a year ago. I updated the property facts on Zillow, and the Zestimate jumped to $1M. When I just looked, the Zestimate was...wait for it...$731k. Wut?
It's the second biggest house on the court. All the other Zestimates on the street are from $1-$1.5M. There are two very recent comps in the neighborhood that are pending at $1.2, but both of them still  need work and ours is turnkey.  I'm not really worried, but WTF, Zillow?

Just the concept of a house worth more than $1M staggers me!

The fact its your "fixer upper" even more so.. You have a disposable house worth a million bucks!.. Gosh..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 08:50:38 AM

If the rally holds today I think I will sell some VTSAX to top up the cash pot/set our "income" for the year.

I'm guessing the market is getting a little too optimistic in the light of deteriorating fundamentals so this seems like a good time to cash in a tiny proportion of the chips.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 01, 2019, 09:13:14 AM

Between Friday and so far today....ticked over $2.5M invested.  That's my target of 50X expenses, not counting college for the kids.  Son #1 is finishing up and will be done in October.  Nice that summer courses are all discounted.  Son #2 starts community college in the fall, which is under $10k a year plus we'll buy a car for him to use.  That's mouse nuts compared to the now $70k that Son #1's college is charging.  He may go to grad school but plans to work for a bit first as he prepares his application, takes the GRE and gets in sync for a fall entry.  Looking only at in state colleges (because I've said I'm done paying for private college), so it'll be a lot easier to pay for.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 01, 2019, 09:15:15 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 01, 2019, 09:13:14 AM

Between Friday and so far today....ticked over $2.5M invested.  That's my target of 50X expenses, not counting college for the kids.  Son #1 is finishing up and will be done in October.  Nice that summer courses are all discounted.  Son #2 starts community college in the fall, which is under $10k a year plus we'll buy a car for him to use.  That's mouse nuts compared to the now $70k that Son #1's college is charging.  He may go to grad school but plans to work for a bit first as he prepares his application, takes the GRE and gets in sync for a fall entry.  Looking only at in state colleges (because I've said I'm done paying for private college), so it'll be a lot easier to pay for.

50x expenses!!!! Why???
I'm shooting for 33.33 (which is $2.5-not including house value) and I thought that was too conservative.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 01, 2019, 09:50:07 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 07:24:13 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 29, 2019, 10:07:36 AM

Well, you guys inspired me to look up the flip house on Zillow. Oops. We bought it for $725 a year ago. I updated the property facts on Zillow, and the Zestimate jumped to $1M. When I just looked, the Zestimate was...wait for it...$731k. Wut?
It's the second biggest house on the court. All the other Zestimates on the street are from $1-$1.5M. There are two very recent comps in the neighborhood that are pending at $1.2, but both of them still  need work and ours is turnkey.  I'm not really worried, but WTF, Zillow?

Just the concept of a house worth more than $1M staggers me!

The fact its your "fixer upper" even more so.. You have a disposable house worth a million bucks!.. Gosh..:)

Lol, we have three rentals in the same resort community, with amenities up the wazoo.. They're single family homes, solidly built with quality materials, and about the same size. Collectively, they're worth less than the flip house will go for. Location, location, location, baby.

In related news, I emailed Zillow over the weekend about the flip house Zestimate.. I'll report back when they respond.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 01, 2019, 09:59:35 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 29, 2019, 10:07:36 AM

Well, you guys inspired me to look up the flip house on Zillow. Oops. We bought it for $725 a year ago. I updated the property facts on Zillow, and the Zestimate jumped to $1M. When I just looked, the Zestimate was...wait for it...$731k. Wut?
It's the second biggest house on the court. All the other Zestimates on the street are from $1-$1.5M. There are two very recent comps in the neighborhood that are pending at $1.2, but both of them still  need work and ours is turnkey.  I'm not really worried, but WTF, Zillow?

Well, the Zestimate just jumped to $1,134,352. No explanation given. Based on very recent comps, we're going to list at $1.15, and expect to get $1.2. If this topic hadn't come up in this thread, I might not have noticed the crazy Zestimate, so thanks, y'all!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on July 01, 2019, 10:06:30 AM

Quote from: lhamo on July 01, 2019, 09:18:43 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 01, 2019, 09:13:14 AM

Between Friday and so far today....ticked over $2.5M invested.  That's my target of 50X expenses, not counting college for the kids.  Son #1 is finishing up and will be done in October.  Nice that summer courses are all discounted.  Son #2 starts community college in the fall, which is under $10k a year plus we'll buy a car for him to use.  That's mouse nuts compared to the now $70k that Son #1's college is charging.  He may go to grad school but plans to work for a bit first as he prepares his application, takes the GRE and gets in sync for a fall entry.  Looking only at in state colleges (because I've said I'm done paying for private college), so it'll be a lot easier to pay for.

If he can't get grad school paid for he should probably not go.  Graduate programs that cost money are usually a poor ROI.

+1
And if GRE AND entrance tests go well, fall entry is an option.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 10:23:40 AM

Am I the only one with a massive sense of imposter syndrome on this thread?

There are freaking rich people on here I tell ya!...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 01, 2019, 10:46:39 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 10:23:40 AM

Am I the only one with a massive sense of imposter syndrome on this thread?

There are freaking rich people on here I tell ya!...:)

Where?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 01, 2019, 11:00:46 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 10:23:40 AM

Am I the only one with a massive sense of imposter syndrome on this thread?

There are freaking rich people on here I tell ya!...:)

I hear you. We are not that far over the line of $2M invested and it feels like the market could take it away any moment here.


It is weird to simultaneously feel crazy rich and also like it isn’t enough and we need to save up more because you just don’t know.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 12:22:45 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 01, 2019, 11:00:46 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 10:23:40 AM

Am I the only one with a massive sense of imposter syndrome on this thread?

There are freaking rich people on here I tell ya!...:)

I hear you. We are not that far over the line of $2M invested and it feels like the market could take it away any moment here.


It is weird to simultaneously feel crazy rich and also like it isn’t enough and we need to save up more because you just don’t know.

Well it WILL take it away from us at some point.. But yet we (have to) stay

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on July 01, 2019, 12:55:39 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 01, 2019, 11:00:46 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 10:23:40 AM

Am I the only one with a massive sense of imposter syndrome on this thread?

There are freaking rich people on here I tell ya!...:)

I hear you. We are not that far over the line of $2M invested and it feels like the market could take it away any moment here.


It is weird to simultaneously feel crazy rich and also like it isn’t enough and we need to save up more because you just don’t know.

I hear you. When my wife and I broke the £1m mark, we celebrated at a fancy restaurant, as it was very symbolic to us. And we felt we had come a long way, being historically big spenders.
When we crossed the £2m mark 3 months ago, we were each reading our own book on our side of the bed and I told my wife about that nice milestone. She briefly looked at me and said “well done love” - before returning her attention to her book.
Although we are big earners, we don’t feel rich as we have become big savers (65-70% saving rate a year)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 01, 2019, 02:07:26 PM

Quote from: londonbanker on July 01, 2019, 12:55:39 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 01, 2019, 11:00:46 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 10:23:40 AM

Am I the only one with a massive sense of imposter syndrome on this thread?

There are freaking rich people on here I tell ya!...:)

I hear you. We are not that far over the line of $2M invested and it feels like the market could take it away any moment here.


It is weird to simultaneously feel crazy rich and also like it isn’t enough and we need to save up more because you just don’t know.

I hear you. When my wife and I broke the £1m mark, we celebrated at a fancy restaurant, as it was very symbolic to us. And we felt we had come a long way, being historically big spenders.
When we crossed the £2m mark 3 months ago, we were each reading our own book on our side of the bed and I told my wife about that nice milestone. She briefly looked at me and said “well done love” - before returning her attention to her book.
Although we are big earners, we don’t feel rich as we have become big savers (65-70% saving rate a year)

In your case though you admittedly have fewer of the "just don't knows" than we poor saps in the US have. How lovely it must be to not have Healthcare and University as two massive financial liabilities/unknowns in your future.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 01, 2019, 02:12:53 PM

Quote from: lhamo on July 01, 2019, 09:18:43 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 01, 2019, 09:13:14 AM

Between Friday and so far today....ticked over $2.5M invested.  That's my target of 50X expenses, not counting college for the kids.  Son #1 is finishing up and will be done in October.  Nice that summer courses are all discounted.  Son #2 starts community college in the fall, which is under $10k a year plus we'll buy a car for him to use.  That's mouse nuts compared to the now $70k that Son #1's college is charging.  He may go to grad school but plans to work for a bit first as he prepares his application, takes the GRE and gets in sync for a fall entry.  Looking only at in state colleges (because I've said I'm done paying for private college), so it'll be a lot easier to pay for.

If he can't get grad school paid for he should probably not go.  Graduate programs that cost money are usually a poor ROI.

The specialty he wants to work in has good demand, but every single job requires a Bachelors AND 5 years related experience or a Masters and no experience.  Catch 22.  He had an internship doing this (stress analysis of structures using finite element analysis) and his senior project is specializing in this.  He'll look for a teaching assistantship or research assistantship to reduce cost. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 02:13:53 PM

@ysette9 Yup.. thats why I'm keeping my UK citizenship!

Today though.. We are all a little bit richer.. Until tomorrow at least...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 01, 2019, 02:16:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 01, 2019, 09:15:15 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 01, 2019, 09:13:14 AM

Between Friday and so far today....ticked over $2.5M invested.  That's my target of 50X expenses, not counting college for the kids.  Son #1 is finishing up and will be done in October.  Nice that summer courses are all discounted.  Son #2 starts community college in the fall, which is under $10k a year plus we'll buy a car for him to use.  That's mouse nuts compared to the now $70k that Son #1's college is charging.  He may go to grad school but plans to work for a bit first as he prepares his application, takes the GRE and gets in sync for a fall entry.  Looking only at in state colleges (because I've said I'm done paying for private college), so it'll be a lot easier to pay for.

50x expenses!!!! Why???
I'm shooting for 33.33 (which is $2.5-not including house value) and I thought that was too conservative.

I'm a big "safety net" guy.  I want to be absolutely sure.  Also will allow me to splurge if I want and break the budget now and then.  A 911 GT-3 is a possible purchase.  Heck....when I was in grad school, I could graduate one of 3 ways.  Thesis, Report with added courses or Graduate (PhD entry) exam with 2 extra courses.  I did all three until I passed the exam.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 01, 2019, 02:33:23 PM

We are at 45x right now but my wife still gets worried thinking that we will wind up impoverished in a homeless shelter :-)

I've run all the calculators and have managed to assuage her fears a little. She now has no problem with at least me retiring within the next year while she continues to work - progress!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 01, 2019, 02:40:33 PM

well, I still plan on retiring in May of 2020 and we should be at 33% of spending. We are 42 and DH still wants to work. Right now he says he wants to keep going until the kids are either in or finished with college. That would be somewhere around 12-15 more years. So suppose it's entirely possible that by the time he pulls the trigger we could be at 50% of spending, or much more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: mjr on July 01, 2019, 02:42:53 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 01, 2019, 09:15:15 AM

50x expenses!!!! Why???
I'm shooting for 33.33 (which is $2.5-not including house value) and I thought that was too conservative.

11 months in to my first year of fire - I have 90x for the first year :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 01, 2019, 03:06:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 02:13:53 PM

@ysette9 Yup.. thats why I'm keeping my UK citizenship!

Today though.. We are all a little bit richer.. Until tomorrow at least...:)

I actually have citizenship as well, but still need to convince my husband to take a leap and try living there to see how we like it. :) A solid Plan B for when things get to screwed up over here and maybe I’ll manage to convince him to make it Plan A. You never know!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on July 01, 2019, 04:04:15 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 01, 2019, 02:07:26 PM

Quote from: londonbanker on July 01, 2019, 12:55:39 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 01, 2019, 11:00:46 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 10:23:40 AM

Am I the only one with a massive sense of imposter syndrome on this thread?

There are freaking rich people on here I tell ya!...:)

I hear you. We are not that far over the line of $2M invested and it feels like the market could take it away any moment here.


It is weird to simultaneously feel crazy rich and also like it isn’t enough and we need to save up more because you just don’t know.

I hear you. When my wife and I broke the £1m mark, we celebrated at a fancy restaurant, as it was very symbolic to us. And we felt we had come a long way, being historically big spenders.
When we crossed the £2m mark 3 months ago, we were each reading our own book on our side of the bed and I told my wife about that nice milestone. She briefly looked at me and said “well done love” - before returning her attention to her book.
Although we are big earners, we don’t feel rich as we have become big savers (65-70% saving rate a year)

In your case though you admittedly have fewer of the "just don't knows" than we poor saps in the US have. How lovely it must be to not have Healthcare and University as two massive financial liabilities/unknowns in your future.

I do agree about healthcare, and partly on university as fees aren’t cheap either (£10k a year + living expenses) - but on a like for like real estate is much much more expensive than in the US, outside of Top 5 US cities that would be more aligned to London. That difference in housing cost I believe more than make up for university cost differetiential - and some.
HC is a b@TCH though - I agree and would never move back to the US for that reason alone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 01, 2019, 04:50:02 PM

Quote from: londonbanker on July 01, 2019, 04:04:15 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 01, 2019, 02:07:26 PM

Quote from: londonbanker on July 01, 2019, 12:55:39 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 01, 2019, 11:00:46 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 10:23:40 AM

Am I the only one with a massive sense of imposter syndrome on this thread?

There are freaking rich people on here I tell ya!...:)

I hear you. We are not that far over the line of $2M invested and it feels like the market could take it away any moment here.


It is weird to simultaneously feel crazy rich and also like it isn’t enough and we need to save up more because you just don’t know.

I hear you. When my wife and I broke the £1m mark, we celebrated at a fancy restaurant, as it was very symbolic to us. And we felt we had come a long way, being historically big spenders.
When we crossed the £2m mark 3 months ago, we were each reading our own book on our side of the bed and I told my wife about that nice milestone. She briefly looked at me and said “well done love” - before returning her attention to her book.
Although we are big earners, we don’t feel rich as we have become big savers (65-70% saving rate a year)

In your case though you admittedly have fewer of the "just don't knows" than we poor saps in the US have. How lovely it must be to not have Healthcare and University as two massive financial liabilities/unknowns in your future.

I do agree about healthcare, and partly on university as fees aren’t cheap either (£10k a year + living expenses) - but on a like for like real estate is much much more expensive than in the US, outside of Top 5 US cities that would be more aligned to London. That difference in housing cost I believe more than make up for university cost differetiential - and some.
HC is a b@TCH though - I agree and would never move back to the US for that reason alone.

Out of curiosity I did a quick search online for cost of living comparison. It looks like London would be a bit more affordable than where we live now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 01, 2019, 04:55:50 PM

Haha.. In recent years when we've travelled back to the UK it seems the prices of things generally are quite a bit higher than we are used to spending up here in Oregon.

Except healthcare of course!

The other thing about the UK is that space is generally quite limited, In Oregon we sit on 5.5 acres that would be almost unheard of in the UK unless you owned a farm.

VAT I believe is currently 20%. I think our Federal taxes are generally lower in the US also. Not that I know because we don't pay any..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 01, 2019, 06:31:24 PM

I haven’t looked into what life would really cost and how things like taxes would work if we relocated to the U.K. That is a whole other layer of complexity that aphid clearly ne very important.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on July 01, 2019, 11:42:57 PM

Oh yes. I forgot tax rate. My marginal tax rate is 47% and VAT at 20% feels steep. But there again, property tax is super cheap (currently paying 0.2% of my house value annually). So loads of up/down in comparison categories.
Cost of living comparison in major US capitals (Bay area, NYC, LA etc...) vs London isn’t that dissimilar - what might skew things lately is the historically weak GBP/US making London look cheaper that it actually is when FX adjusted.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 02, 2019, 08:29:02 AM

Quote from: londonbanker on July 01, 2019, 11:42:57 PM

Oh yes. I forgot tax rate. My marginal tax rate is 47% and VAT at 20% feels steep. But there again, property tax is super cheap (currently paying 0.2% of my house value annually). So loads of up/down in comparison categories.
Cost of living comparison in major US capitals (Bay area, NYC, LA etc...) vs London isn’t that dissimilar - what might skew things lately is the historically weak GBP/US making London look cheaper that it actually is when FX adjusted.

Is there a difference in how taxes work for earned income vs investment income? Can a FIRE-ee expect lower taxes than a working stiff?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on July 02, 2019, 09:16:23 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 02, 2019, 08:29:02 AM

Quote from: londonbanker on July 01, 2019, 11:42:57 PM

Oh yes. I forgot tax rate. My marginal tax rate is 47% and VAT at 20% feels steep. But there again, property tax is super cheap (currently paying 0.2% of my house value annually). So loads of up/down in comparison categories.
Cost of living comparison in major US capitals (Bay area, NYC, LA etc...) vs London isn’t that dissimilar - what might skew things lately is the historically weak GBP/US making London look cheaper that it actually is when FX adjusted.

Is there a difference in how taxes work for earned income vs investment income? Can a FIRE-ee expect lower taxes than a working stiff?

TL;DR, Yup, wage work is Expensive in taxes.

https://engaging-data.com/tax-brackets/
By forum member CCCA ( same person site as Rich, Broke or Dead calculator)

Note that " capital gains" ONLY includes the gains, not the withdrawal amount.
Example:If you withdrew from a taxable account that had doubled in value, your taxable amount is 50% of the withdrawal, not the whole amount that you get and spend.

On this forum, the tax thead, and specifically:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/taxes/taxes-in-early-retirement-(gocurrycracker-links)/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on July 02, 2019, 10:58:17 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 02, 2019, 08:29:02 AM

Quote from: londonbanker on July 01, 2019, 11:42:57 PM

Oh yes. I forgot tax rate. My marginal tax rate is 47% and VAT at 20% feels steep. But there again, property tax is super cheap (currently paying 0.2% of my house value annually). So loads of up/down in comparison categories.
Cost of living comparison in major US capitals (Bay area, NYC, LA etc...) vs London isn’t that dissimilar - what might skew things lately is the historically weak GBP/US making London look cheaper that it actually is when FX adjusted.

Is there a difference in how taxes work for earned income vs investment income? Can a FIRE-ee expect lower taxes than a working stiff?

To keep things simple... If you have managed your investment well overtime and made use of the tax free wrappers, deductions, exemption etc... a married couple can earn about £60-70k a year from investment return virtually tax free. Anything above that will trigger taxation that is still 10% lower than the equivalent marginal tax rate of the “working stuff”.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 02, 2019, 12:49:19 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on July 02, 2019, 09:16:23 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 02, 2019, 08:29:02 AM

Quote from: londonbanker on July 01, 2019, 11:42:57 PM

Oh yes. I forgot tax rate. My marginal tax rate is 47% and VAT at 20% feels steep. But there again, property tax is super cheap (currently paying 0.2% of my house value annually). So loads of up/down in comparison categories.
Cost of living comparison in major US capitals (Bay area, NYC, LA etc...) vs London isn’t that dissimilar - what might skew things lately is the historically weak GBP/US making London look cheaper that it actually is when FX adjusted.

Is there a difference in how taxes work for earned income vs investment income? Can a FIRE-ee expect lower taxes than a working stiff?

TL;DR, Yup, wage work is Expensive in taxes.

https://engaging-data.com/tax-brackets/
By forum member CCCA ( same person site as Rich, Broke or Dead calculator)

Note that " capital gains" ONLY includes the gains, not the withdrawal amount.
Example:If you withdrew from a taxable account that had doubled in value, your taxable amount is 50% of the withdrawal, not the whole amount that you get and spend.

On this forum, the tax thead, and specifically:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/taxes/taxes-in-early-retirement-(gocurrycracker-links)/

Sorry, I should have been clearer. Im well aware of how the tax policy in the US favors the rich who live off their investments. I was asking what it is like in England.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on July 02, 2019, 04:30:03 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 02, 2019, 12:49:19 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on July 02, 2019, 09:16:23 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 02, 2019, 08:29:02 AM

Quote from: londonbanker on July 01, 2019, 11:42:57 PM

Oh yes. I forgot tax rate. My marginal tax rate is 47% and VAT at 20% feels steep. But there again, property tax is super cheap (currently paying 0.2% of my house value annually). So loads of up/down in comparison categories.
Cost of living comparison in major US capitals (Bay area, NYC, LA etc...) vs London isn’t that dissimilar - what might skew things lately is the historically weak GBP/US making London look cheaper that it actually is when FX adjusted.

Is there a difference in how taxes work for earned income vs investment income? Can a FIRE-ee expect lower taxes than a working stiff?

TL;DR, Yup, wage work is Expensive in taxes.

https://engaging-data.com/tax-brackets/
By forum member CCCA ( same person site as Rich, Broke or Dead calculator)

Note that " capital gains" ONLY includes the gains, not the withdrawal amount.
Example:If you withdrew from a taxable account that had doubled in value, your taxable amount is 50% of the withdrawal, not the whole amount that you get and spend.

On this forum, the tax thead, and specifically:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/taxes/taxes-in-early-retirement-(gocurrycracker-links)/

Sorry, I should have been clearer. Im well aware of how the tax policy in the US favors the rich who live off their investments. I was asking what it is like in England.

Welcome to the upper-crust US style. 
Nice to know that for reasonable incomes, the UK is similar to the US.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 02, 2019, 04:42:59 PM

Jeepers!

I don't pay attention to this money making bullcrap for a couple days and it sets record highs.

https://www.investors.com/market-trend/stock-market-today/dow-jones-sets-new-high-verizon-cisco-stock-rally/ (https://www.investors.com/market-trend/stock-market-today/dow-jones-sets-new-high-verizon-cisco-stock-rally/)

The rich get richer and most of us work for them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 02, 2019, 06:34:13 PM

I try to pay more attention to my income from work, although that is pretty absurd, it is more tangible.  The income YTD from my investments this year is incomprehensible (once again).  Over 400k for doing nothing?  Of course, last year was  less generous given the late dip, but still up!  I may have to turn in my Mustache all together and figure out what rich people do at this rate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 03, 2019, 02:53:33 AM

Some of the returns you all are reporting are nice to see. For me because i am 4.5 years Fire'd I am just excited that I have more money well at least today then I did when I Fire'd. My portfolio is not as risky as some only 60/40 and my withdrawal is higher 5% with the market being as it has as I have slowly remodeled about 90%(about 80k) of our house and we did buy one toy a boat (40k)  but I am about 400k higher than I was when I fired. Granted I have made or done some cash jobs here and there and done some CC churning but that's minimal and also have 2 in college and 2 coming up the pipeline quickly but just happy I crossed back over the 3M line with my conservatively figured payed for house. I probably have a bit to much cash as well that might be hurting me but that helps me sleep at night and i have been going to auctions and really looking for a home I can get on a lake near us to live on or if I get stuck flip but there hard to come by as well as anything to flip.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 03, 2019, 07:33:59 AM

What's crazy is that I could have been up more if I had remained more aggressive.  I was up over 500k in 2017 (and over 300k in 2016), so let's see if 2019 tops that!  I must admit, I don't mind missing out on some gains, but I am aggressive with the new cash that I won't be needing anytime soon (in fact, I doubt I'll touch any of it in my lifetime unless some black swan event happens).  So this is expected to be invested for 50+ years...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 03, 2019, 09:20:23 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 02, 2019, 06:34:13 PM

I try to pay more attention to my income from work, although that is pretty absurd, it is more tangible.  The income YTD from my investments this year is incomprehensible (once again).  Over 400k for doing nothing?  Of course, last year was  less generous given the late dip, but still up!  I may have to turn in my Mustache all together and figure out what rich people do at this rate.

Holy cow, Batman!  400K a year in returns? Plus work?  That's a fortune.   I love it that we are Mustachians in spite of the size of the stash.  I'm actually starting to wrap my mind around the fact that it's all good and here for keeps.  (it was hard to type out those last 4 words)  I'm also starting to digest the fact that you can't take it with you, and freeing up the purse strings a bit. 

I want to share a fun FIR story:  A couple of days ago I had lunch with one of my oldest friends and her 95 year old father, who I haven't spent any time with for 30 or so years.   Aside from his amazing stories (WWII vet who was a special ops type-- first in--Scout ahead of major invasions), he naturally asked me how I was doing.  I told him that I'm retired, life is great, and I pretty much go from one fun thing to the next.  That about sums it up, right?    I'm heading to Japan next week.   My 4th international vacation so far this year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 03, 2019, 09:54:30 AM

In the interest of full disclosure, the 400k gain includes additional savings from work.  Not trying to pull a 'Beardstown Ladies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beardstown_Ladies)' on anybody!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 03, 2019, 10:08:15 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 02, 2019, 04:42:59 PM

The rich get richer and most of us work for them.

Nope, some of us are FIRE. Yet another reason to keep reaching for the goal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 03, 2019, 11:13:53 AM

Ok well once again we all have a bit more moolah today.

almost 2996 on the S&P 500 at the early close.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 03, 2019, 12:06:23 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 03, 2019, 11:13:53 AM

Ok well once again we all have a bit more moolah today.

almost 2996 on the S&P 500 at the early close.

It's the stuff dreams are made of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJOjTNuuEVw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJOjTNuuEVw)

Why do I have this tickling little voice in the back of my head telling me to "watch out"?  I guess it's just a lifetime of conditioning.  If it seems to good to be true,......

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 03, 2019, 12:13:59 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 03, 2019, 12:06:23 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 03, 2019, 11:13:53 AM

Ok well once again we all have a bit more moolah today.

almost 2996 on the S&P 500 at the early close.

It's the stuff dreams are made of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJOjTNuuEVw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJOjTNuuEVw)

Why do I have this tickling little voice in the back of my head telling me to "watch out"?  I guess it's just a lifetime of conditioning.  If it seems to good to be true,......

I feel the same way. I mean, things go up and things go down, that is just the way the markets go. We have been up for a long time now, so it will happen eventually. There is just no way of knowing whether that will be next week or five years from now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 03, 2019, 12:28:58 PM

I am a realist. It's definitely too good to be true. We're up $670k or about 18% since 12/31. About 25k of that is new contributions, all the rest is crazy gains.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Behindschedule on July 03, 2019, 01:56:16 PM

A question from a new Mr. Money Mustache follower and recent lurker on this and other similar threads.  I notice a lot of people don't include their home equity in the calculation for inclusion on this thread.  I understand that a primary home is not an investment and is not easily liquidated, but do you also not count your 401k and other retirement funds in these calculations?  I would think it would generally (as long as the housing market is functioning properly) make more sense to sell a house if you wanted to get liquid than to take the tax penalty of liquidating a designated retirement account (401k, defined benefit, etc...)  So is everyone in here just using liquid non-retirement designated funds for their net worth calculation? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 03, 2019, 02:40:46 PM

We are generally using our invested assets as the thing to be tracked because invested assets grow and produce income. A house you live in is not an investment unless you sell it and move, but then you still have the problem of figuring out how you are going to house yourself. So except for the people who have a plan to sell and move to a LCOL place, the home equity is sort of irrelevant. The important thing is whether you have enough invested assets to cover your ongoing income needs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on July 03, 2019, 02:56:26 PM

I do include my home equity in my calculation to qualify to be in this club.
My invested assets are close to 2 million but not quite yet there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: CoffeeR on July 03, 2019, 03:32:07 PM

Quote from: Behindschedule on July 03, 2019, 01:56:16 PM

A question from a new Mr. Money Mustache follower and recent lurker on this and other similar threads.  I notice a lot of people don't include their home equity in the calculation for inclusion on this thread.  I understand that a primary home is not an investment and is not easily liquidated, but do you also not count your 401k and other retirement funds in these calculations?  I would think it would generally (as long as the housing market is functioning properly) make more sense to sell a house if you wanted to get liquid than to take the tax penalty of liquidating a designated retirement account (401k, defined benefit, etc...)  So is everyone in here just using liquid non-retirement designated funds for their net worth calculation?

A lot of people do include their home equity. For me personally it would make sense if you plan on downsizing your home and/or moving from a HCOL to a LCOL area. As for me, I need to live somewhere, so I do not include it in my NW calculations.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 03, 2019, 03:35:56 PM

Nobody ever defined the membership rules for this club.

Personally what I do is..

401k's/ IRA's etc.. counted

After tax savings.. counted

Pension valuations.. I don't count for "membership" but I do for our overall networth, kinda funny money because I can't take it out an spend it as a lump sum I can only take it as income.

Home Value.. Which at best is a SWAG.. Same as pensions

Social Security.. Excluded.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 03, 2019, 07:38:03 PM

I count all my real estate because:
1)  90% or more of my NW is in RE, my house is just part of that.  I'm actually less inclined to count my meager stock holdings, since, well, they're meager.
2) Mint tallies it for me using Zillow zestimates.   (wrong, yes, but there's no effort involved to get those ballpark figures ). 
3) High numbers are funner.  My house is tippy toeing towards 1M, and it's nearly paid off.  So, yeah, it counts.  I could sell it and buy 6-10 doors/little houses in a LCOL area. 

I'm one of the outliers here in that my NW is mostly RE, my income is mostly RE, and the stocks just sit there bouncing around.  Even my good returns in the stock market pale in comparison to my good returns on RE.  That's what I do, that's what I know, so I count it all.  I can see the point of just eliminating the personal residence in a net worth tally when your assets are elsewhere, but, at the end of the day, the real definition of net worth is-- what all your stuff would be worth if you sold it?  If you died today, what's the estate worth? That includes your house, cars, and grandma's wedding ring.  Except we, alive and well and on MMM,  don't want to sell it, we want to figure out how to help us live.  So, while you're living, you probably just want to count the assets that support your expenses/liquidable/income earning/ etc.   Semantically speaking, it's a different tally, but perfectly acceptable to include your house and stuff or not.  Earlier on my path to FI,  I used to include pretty much everything, but now just the really big stuff.  Basically, now, for me, that's just the real estate, with a nod to the stocks. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 04, 2019, 12:04:25 AM

Okay, I'll play...

I count home equity on our primary home, because it's paid off, and we could sell it faster that I could pack all our crap. We live in a HCOLA, so it's worth about $1.3M. We will downsize and stay in the area when DH retires.

I count all taxable and retirement investments.

I don't count any of the equity in our three rental properties. They're in a seasonal resort area and what we could get for them fluctuates with the seasons too much to make a reasonable guesstimate. Don't need it to get over the threshold,  so meh, I don't bother.

I don't count the value of DH's defined benefit pension, which will kick in in less than two years, because I have no idea how to calculate what it will be.

We're in the middle of a year-long flip. We have about $300k into it. We hope to make a profit of $100k, so there's $400k to figure out what to do with. It should go on the market in about ten days, so we will need to start thinking about that soon, I guess.

We don't count Social Security, but we have a ballpark estimate of what it will be.

I think we'll be okay.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 04, 2019, 03:28:09 AM

Here is how I calculate.

I count my home as its paid for but I low ball it by 20- 25% Hence the 300k Calculation and being in an area that it would sell in 3 days.

I use mint which keeps tract of all my investments from Vanguard including 401ks etc.. to all bank types and CD's and subtracts my CC's and expenses.

I simply add those two up and thats my NW.

I dont add SS
Potential income
529's
A Small Cash Stash I keep around hidden
Any other properties or material things,

but the 300k I count in my house does help in putting me over the 3M as of now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 04, 2019, 03:52:48 AM

What I include in net worth - liquid assets, 401Ks

What I don't include:

• House value (completely paid off though)
• Pensions - both wife and I are entitled to pensions. However I'm on the fence about whether to include them as both my company and my wife's company offers the option of a lump-sum at retirement age (typically 65). There is a precise value that is listed for both of our pensions and its quite substantial.
• SS

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 04, 2019, 05:14:19 AM

How I count.

For here I count my pension as I am vested.  I know it is worth $26,000 a year in 2040 if I quit today, so I count it at a discounter 25x value.

I count my home at a discounted rate of $300,000, I probably could sell it for at least $350,000 because I keep a mortgage on in for the soul reason of allowing my investments to stay investments.

I count retirement accounts because there are ways to access them early without penalty if you structure the withdrawal correctly. 

I count all my other accounts to include my DAF.  Charitable giving is something I do and will continue to do when I RE, so the DAF is predesignated money for that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 04, 2019, 05:47:20 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 04, 2019, 05:14:19 AM

I count all my other accounts to include my DAF.  Charitable giving is something I do and will continue to do when I RE, so the DAF is predesignated money for that.

That's excellent that you have a DAF, but why do you count it In your NW? Once you contribute to it, the money is irrevocably out of your control except to designate which charity to direct it to and how big the check will be. I understand that having a DAF lets you continue to give charitably, which I wholeheartedly endorse, but not how it increases your bottom line, especially in the context of this thread.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jeroly on July 04, 2019, 06:35:32 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 04, 2019, 05:14:19 AM

How I count.

For here I count my pension as I am vested.  I know it is worth $26,000 a year in 2040 if I quit today, so I count it at a discounter 25x value.

You are way, way, way overvaluing your pension.
The proper way to value your pension is to price a deferred annuity that pays $26,000 a year.  I priced an annuity for a 44-year-old woman (which will be pricier than for a man and hence yield a higher value) starting at age 65 and get a price of approximately $200,000 or slightly less than 8x the payout.

The difference is based on the fact that your pension has no residual value when you die, while on average your investments supporting a 4% payout will actually grow to be worth more than they are when you start the withdrawals.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 04, 2019, 09:25:26 AM

How would pensions and SS figure into net worth?  Wouldn't they be more like reliable sources of income?  My thinking is that you don't "own" them, you simply can use them while you're alive, which would certainly offset the need for more savings/net worth.   Or can pensions be cashed out?  I don't know as I've always been self employed. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: CoffeeR on July 04, 2019, 10:23:44 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 04, 2019, 09:25:26 AM

How would pensions and SS figure into net worth?  Wouldn't they be more like reliable sources of income?  My thinking is that you don't "own" them, you simply can use them while you're alive, which would certainly offset the need for more savings/net worth.   Or can pensions be cashed out?  I don't know as I've always been self employed.

You can ignore it for NW calculations, but if a pension pays you (say) $1000/month then you need to save $1000/month less to FIRE, so when comparing or calculating NW for the purpose of FIRE, then you might want to take it into account.

• You could say that using the 4% rule (or whatever rule you use) you would need 12*$1000/.04 = $300K to generate that $1000/month, so your pension is worth $300K.
• You could look at what a SPIA costs (an annuity) that generates $1000/month. That will vary depending on gender, state, and age the pension begins and/or if the pension is COLA adjusted, etc. One calculator I just checked says it would cost me about $225K for a $1000/month lifetime payout increased by 2% yearly starting at age 60.
• Some pensions can be cashed out. This could be used as the value of the pension.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 04, 2019, 10:30:08 AM

Don't count SS since it is a long way off.  Do count the 529 since it is money I won't have to spend when the kids are in college (plan to graduate them debt free).  Don't count the home equity since I plan to live in the house for a long time and would not tap the equity.  Other than that, everything else will eventually be mine (Employee Stock Purchase Plan, Pension fund lump sum value, 401ks, HSA, bank accounts (with current exchange rates), etc.  Don't count assets like cars and expensive items we have collected overseas, although we could probably sell these things for a nice chunk of money. 

At one point I discounted some of the items for taxes and potential penalties, since I'll end up paying at some point, but it became too complicated.  It's something I will just try to optimize.  I look at it as an upside to early retirement, reducing the amount I need to convert from pre-tax to Roth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 04, 2019, 10:38:44 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 04, 2019, 09:25:26 AM

How would pensions and SS figure into net worth?  Wouldn't they be more like reliable sources of income?  My thinking is that you don't "own" them, you simply can use them while you're alive, which would certainly offset the need for more savings/net worth.   Or can pensions be cashed out?  I don't know as I've always been self employed.

The teachers in Kentucky wish their's could be cashed out! Their system is basically bankrupt and a number of state pension schemes are not far behind.

Miners in Virginia are likely to theirs too.

So sad but you can't rely on anyone for your financial well being in retirement,

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FIREstache on July 04, 2019, 11:41:29 AM

I include my house in my net worth since net worth includes it by definition, but I don't include it in my "stash" figure.  And it's my stash figure that I do all my calculations against.   I pretty much ignore my NW because it's meaningless for my retirement plans.  It's all about the stash.  I'm already in a LCOL area, so even if I move, I'm not likely to have any significant change in my NW or stash, either one.  The stash matters.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 04, 2019, 11:51:15 AM

Less than 3 years from the $3M mark if we coast as is and get average market returns.   Not bad for a couple of retired people.

Might do it a year faster if I find a few renovation deals for rental properties and energetically fix them up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 04, 2019, 12:01:20 PM

Big news.... very excited.

I turned down the job in Philly and opted to FIRE instead. Thinking of 30 April next year.

Olympics are booked for a July/ Aug.

Ready to start the next, free, chapter of my life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 04, 2019, 12:21:19 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 04, 2019, 12:01:20 PM

Big news.... very excited.

I turned down the job in Philly and opted to FIRE instead. Thinking of 30 April next year.

Olympics are booked for a July/ Aug.

Ready to start the next, free, chapter of my life.

Excellent news!.. Well done..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on July 04, 2019, 01:35:27 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 01, 2019, 02:33:23 PM

We are at 45x right now but my wife still gets worried thinking that we will wind up impoverished in a homeless shelter :-)

I've run all the calculators and have managed to assuage her fears a little. She now has no problem with at least me retiring within the next year while she continues to work - progress!

I am in the same boat.  I FIREd 2.5 years ago, currently at 45x budgeted expenses (which are significantly higher than actual) and my DW is worried we will run out of money and wants to keep working.

I think the "must have a regular paycheck to survive" attitude is very common.  It is why taking SS ASAP, Reverse Mortgages and Annuities are so common.  All of them are paycheck replacements.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on July 04, 2019, 01:51:02 PM

I count all tax deferred and open market investments, cash reserves, and the house because it is paid off and is quite liquid.

I do not count SS, the 529 account or our HSAs.

For comparison: Our kids are past college age and we live in a MCOLA.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 04, 2019, 03:21:49 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on July 04, 2019, 01:51:02 PM

I count all tax deferred and open market investments, cash reserves, and the house because it is paid off and is quite liquid.

I do not count SS, the 529 account or our HSAs.

For comparison: Our kids are past college age and we live in a MCOLA.

How can you count Social Security as net worth?  I guess it is sort of an investment.  You've put in a lot of time and payments to get it.  However, it's really not a tangible asset.  There's no way you can cash it in and move to Guatemala.  Or is there?  You guys know all the angles.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 04, 2019, 05:17:25 PM

I don't count houses.   Mine aren't making money.  They are money pits so I see  my personal real estate as a wash. I count 401K, IRA and taxable accounts. I do count my pension because it has a cash value.  By the time we FIRE, most likely we'll qualify for the club minus pension as well.  Considering the 4% rule, which would be 80K income on investments.  We're blowing that out of the water.  I'm sure those investors in real estate that do so for income are as well.  It's not so much how much you have, how much does what you
 have earn.   We're at 1.5M in stock market investment.   So on average that's 150K a year.  Almost 400K pension earning a fixed 5% so 20K.  Another 250K in bonds.  Doesn't make squat, maybe 5K to 10K.  So since we're not FIRE yet an average year it grows 175K.  We're tossing in another 75K.  Sooo...250K a year in net worth growth on average till FIRE.  Hell, I may never quit!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 04, 2019, 07:17:29 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 04, 2019, 05:47:20 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 04, 2019, 05:14:19 AM

I count all my other accounts to include my DAF.  Charitable giving is something I do and will continue to do when I RE, so the DAF is predesignated money for that.

That's excellent that you have a DAF, but why do you count it In your NW? Once you contribute to it, the money is irrevocably out of your control except to designate which charity to direct it to and how big the check will be. I understand that having a DAF lets you continue to give charitably, which I wholeheartedly endorse, but not how it increases your bottom line, especially in the context of this thread.

Why?  I put it into the DAF because it was adventurous to do so now for tax purposes.  I still count it because later, the actual donations to the charity will come from the DAF instead of other accounts.  I count it until it is spent in the same manner that I count any designated savings.  The only difference is I can't take it "back" for another purpose besides charity. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 04, 2019, 07:30:03 PM

Quote from: jeroly on July 04, 2019, 06:35:32 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 04, 2019, 05:14:19 AM

How I count.

For here I count my pension as I am vested.  I know it is worth $26,000 a year in 2040 if I quit today, so I count it at a discounter 25x value.

You are way, way, way overvaluing your pension.
The proper way to value your pension is to price a deferred annuity that pays $26,000 a year.  I priced an annuity for a 44-year-old woman (which will be pricier than for a man and hence yield a higher value) starting at age 65 and get a price of approximately $200,000 or slightly less than 8x the payout.

The difference is based on the fact that your pension has no residual value when you die, while on average your investments supporting a 4% payout will actually grow to be worth more than they are when you start the withdrawals.

I discount it greatly, not 25x value, I can't say I use annuity value, it's a lot more fuzzy.  More than anything it's a hey I have this thing out there it is worth something as my pension does not have an cash value.

ETA:  When I think about my pension is reality it is in relation to it what I don't personally have to save for FIRE.  Which is why I give it any fuzzy value at all.  The fuzzy value is based on plan rules.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 04, 2019, 09:24:26 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 04, 2019, 07:17:29 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 04, 2019, 05:47:20 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 04, 2019, 05:14:19 AM

I count all my other accounts to include my DAF.  Charitable giving is something I do and will continue to do when I RE, so the DAF is predesignated money for that.

That's excellent that you have a DAF, but why do you count it In your NW? Once you contribute to it, the money is irrevocably out of your control except to designate which charity to direct it to and how big the check will be. I understand that having a DAF lets you continue to give charitably, which I wholeheartedly endorse, but not how it increases your bottom line, especially in the context of this thread.

Why?  I put it into the DAF because it was adventurous to do so now for tax purposes.  I still count it because later, the actual donations to the charity will come from the DAF instead of other accounts.  I count it until it is spent in the same manner that I count any designated savings.  The only difference is I can't take it "back" for another purpose besides charity.

Uh, okay. Money forever out of my control is not an asset I would count, so I don't even think about what's in my DAF, except to hope the market does well so it grows. Beyond that, it's a sunk cost, IMO. But hey, I'm glad you have one and that you give to charity. That's what matters most. And I'm guessing that's an autocorrect for "advantageous". Setting mine up wasn't adventurous at all. Rather boring, actually.

ETA: I admit, giving it away is rather fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 05, 2019, 02:04:38 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 04, 2019, 10:30:08 AM

Don't count SS since it is a long way off.  Do count the 529 since it is money I won't have to spend when the kids are in college (plan to graduate them debt free).  Don't count the home equity since I plan to live in the house for a long time and would not tap the equity.  Other than that, everything else will eventually be mine (Employee Stock Purchase Plan, Pension fund lump sum value, 401ks, HSA, bank accounts (with current exchange rates), etc.  Don't count assets like cars and expensive items we have collected overseas, although we could probably sell these things for a nice chunk of money. 

At one point I discounted some of the items for taxes and potential penalties, since I'll end up paying at some point, but it became too complicated.  It's something I will just try to optimize.  I look at it as an upside to early retirement, reducing the amount I need to convert from pre-tax to Roth.

The reason I don't count the 529's is just the opposite. Its money saved thats spent. But I can see your rational

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 05, 2019, 06:58:33 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 05, 2019, 02:04:38 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 04, 2019, 10:30:08 AM

Don't count SS since it is a long way off.  Do count the 529 since it is money I won't have to spend when the kids are in college (plan to graduate them debt free).  Don't count the home equity since I plan to live in the house for a long time and would not tap the equity.  Other than that, everything else will eventually be mine (Employee Stock Purchase Plan, Pension fund lump sum value, 401ks, HSA, bank accounts (with current exchange rates), etc.  Don't count assets like cars and expensive items we have collected overseas, although we could probably sell these things for a nice chunk of money. 

At one point I discounted some of the items for taxes and potential penalties, since I'll end up paying at some point, but it became too complicated.  It's something I will just try to optimize.  I look at it as an upside to early retirement, reducing the amount I need to convert from pre-tax to Roth.

The reason I don't count the 529's is just the opposite. Its money saved thats spent. But I can see your rational

Ha! We started a 529 for our granddaughter instead of giving her pink plastic crap on occasions of note. I didn't even remember it to add to my list. For me, it's gone, just like the DAF. Once it's out of my direct control, It's off my radar.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 05, 2019, 08:14:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 03, 2019, 03:35:56 PM

Nobody ever defined the membership rules for this club.

With all due respect, I defined it in the first post when I started this thread.

Quote

As with the "2" thread, I'm counting investable assets.  Not house, not rental property, not cars, not silver coins.  Too easy to cheat with stuff that needs to be valued, in my humble opinion.

The intent of defining it this way was to say that what you're counting is what you could reasonably liquidate to live on right now.  You wouldn't liquidate your house right now, so it doesn't count.  Note that this has nothing to do with net worth. 

Other things might be available IF (big if) you could liquidate it in....lets say 2 weeks and it could then be spent to support you.  A pension?  Sure....IF (again, big if), you have a lump sum option that you qualify to cash in now.  I have a lump sum option in a small pension worth about $50k.  But it isn't available until I hit 65, so it's worth zero.

So I hope this helps define what we're counting.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on July 05, 2019, 08:35:21 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 07, 2017, 02:08:33 AM

I'm so ready to post here with 2M liquid, NW I'm pretty legit.   Y'all are the cool kids!

CarJack, I cheated for a bit.  We're legit now.  Thanks for the thread and the rules in your first post.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: dogboyslim on July 05, 2019, 08:36:12 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 02, 2019, 04:42:59 PM

The rich get richer and most of us work for them.

If you are posting in this thread, you ARE them (the rich), regardless of who you work for.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 05, 2019, 08:37:59 AM

In my NW number, I don't count anything that isn't liquid or anything that is specifically earmarked for an expense (other than retirement). So no house, no 529, no HSA. Just the money I plan to tap into when we FIRE. I do include our 403B's and 401A because I believe we could tap into them with 72t rule. However I believe we will have enough in non retirement accounts and roth contributions to make it to 59.5 so hopefully it won't be necessary.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 05, 2019, 09:18:16 AM

Quote from: dogboyslim on July 05, 2019, 08:36:12 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 02, 2019, 04:42:59 PM

The rich get richer and most of us work for them.

If you are posting in this thread, you ARE them (the rich), regardless of who you work for.

Ummmm, Yessss - Perhaps you should discuss this with my butler or my chauffeur.  Matters of the hoi polloi no longer concern me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 05, 2019, 10:18:21 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 05, 2019, 09:18:16 AM

Quote from: dogboyslim on July 05, 2019, 08:36:12 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 02, 2019, 04:42:59 PM

The rich get richer and most of us work for them.

If you are posting in this thread, you ARE them (the rich), regardless of who you work for.

Ummmm, Yessss - Perhaps you should discuss this with my butler or my chauffeur.  Matters of the hoi polloi no longer concern me.

Ah, bless you for using the term correctly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 05, 2019, 12:05:00 PM

it could always be worse..:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xujHlWzWW98

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on July 08, 2019, 08:13:29 AM

I don't count my home equity in my NW, but I also don't subtract my mortgage. 

My house's valuation has gone down from what I paid (in 2006), but I'm not underwater--when/if I sell, I'll at least make something.  For purposes of making future plans, I think it's more accurate to use my liquid investments and count my mortgage as a monthly expense than it would be to factor my home & mortgage into NW. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 08, 2019, 08:33:44 AM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on July 08, 2019, 08:13:29 AM

I don't count my home equity in my NW, but I also don't subtract my mortgage. 

My house's valuation has gone down from what I paid (in 2006), but I'm not underwater--when/if I sell, I'll at least make something.  For purposes of making future plans, I think it's more accurate to use my liquid investments and count my mortgage as a monthly expense than it would be to factor my home & mortgage into NW.

And you would be wrong to do so.

Net worth means a very specific thing.   It is what you own minus what you owe.  Period.  Your house belongs in any valid net worth measurement.


As for making future FIRE plans, that's a very different thing.   Net worth means nothing in that regard.  Your sustainable passive income is what matters.   So, you should be measuring your sustainable passive income, which can come in many different forms. 

Don't screw around with the meaning of Net Worth because you want a different measurement.   Just use the measurement you need instead.   

I measure passive income from social security, disability, farm income, rental house income, and a stock/bond portfolio.   Net worth is useless for all of them, including your modified definition of net worth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: RWD on July 08, 2019, 08:51:42 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 08, 2019, 08:33:44 AM

Don't screw around with the meaning of Net Worth because you want a different measurement.   Just use the measurement you need instead.   

+1.  You're welcome to measure/track whatever you want. But don't call it net worth if it's not actually your net worth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on July 08, 2019, 09:02:27 AM

Thanks for your advice.

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 08, 2019, 08:33:44 AM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on July 08, 2019, 08:13:29 AM

I don't count my home equity in my NW, but I also don't subtract my mortgage. 

My house's valuation has gone down from what I paid (in 2006), but I'm not underwater--when/if I sell, I'll at least make something.  For purposes of making future plans, I think it's more accurate to use my liquid investments and count my mortgage as a monthly expense than it would be to factor my home & mortgage into NW.

And you would be wrong to do so.

Net worth means a very specific thing.   It is what you own minus what you owe.  Period.  Your house belongs in any valid net worth measurement.


As for making future FIRE plans, that's a very different thing.   Net worth means nothing in that regard.  Your sustainable passive income is what matters.   So, you should be measuring your sustainable passive income, which can come in many different forms. 

Don't screw around with the meaning of Net Worth because you want a different measurement.   Just use the measurement you need instead.   

I measure passive income from social security, disability, farm income, rental house income, and a stock/bond portfolio.   Net worth is useless for all of them, including your modified definition of net worth.

Thanks for your advice.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on July 08, 2019, 11:55:59 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 04, 2019, 03:21:49 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on July 04, 2019, 01:51:02 PM

I count all tax deferred and open market investments, cash reserves, and the house because it is paid off and is quite liquid.

I do not count SS, the 529 account or our HSAs.

For comparison: Our kids are past college age and we live in a MCOLA.

How can you count Social Security as net worth?  I guess it is sort of an investment.  You've put in a lot of time and payments to get it.  However, it's really not a tangible asset.  There's no way you can cash it in and move to Guatemala.  Or is there?  You guys know all the angles.

I don't count SS in my net worth (balance sheet).  But I do include it in my cash flow projections, at a discounted rate.  It will effectively reduce the withdrawal amounts from our portfolio accounts.

BTW: While you cannot "cash in" your SS and move the Guatemala you can move there and still collect SS.  There are only a few countries in the world there you cannot collect SS if you live there.  North Korea is one example.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 08, 2019, 02:46:06 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on July 08, 2019, 11:55:59 AM

- SNIP -

I don't count SS in my net worth (balance sheet).  But I do include it in my cash flow projections, at a discounted rate.  It will effectively reduce the withdrawal amounts from our portfolio accounts.

BTW: While you cannot "cash in" your SS and move the Guatemala you can move there and still collect SS.  There are only a few countries in the world there you cannot collect SS if you live there.  North Korea is one example.

Got It.  No plans to move to North Korea.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 08, 2019, 07:12:26 PM

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 08, 2019, 09:24:25 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 08, 2019, 07:12:26 PM

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

It was great! 4 days off from work in a row. Had some out of town friends over and we picnicked in our backyard, chatted, and let the kids run amok.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 08, 2019, 10:52:45 PM

OMG, DH had eight days off and except for a brief concert/picnic in the park on the 4th, all we did was work on the damn flip house. Hopefully, it will all come together soon.

Somewhere upthread, the subject of fat cash reserves came up. We keep a shitload of cash liquid so we can flip houses. We've got almost $300k of that cash into this project, and the well ain't quite dry yet. It will be nice to get that $$$ back and hopefully enough extra to make it worth our effort. Time will tell.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 09, 2019, 05:43:00 AM

Spent five enjoyable days catching up on the latest research in natural language processing and neural networks in the cool comfort of my basement. Built a plastic structure model for my model train layout. Drank some good beer.

Now: groaning at some ridiculously boring task I have to get done at work. Not sure how much longer I can last at this grind.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 09, 2019, 09:47:18 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 08, 2019, 07:12:26 PM

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

I got to work with our wonderful health insurance system.  My Primary Dr's office was closed starting Wednesday and I had a bunch of symptoms making me miserable.  Dr office said to go to Urgent Care facility.

Being that we don't want to be charged $50k for out of network, got onto Cigna's site (yes, I'm happy to call them out) and looked up Urgent Care facilities nearby.  We called the top 3.  All were out of date numbers and not for the facility listed.  Finally called Cigna.  They gave us the number of a recommended facility.  Called and guess what?  That Urgent Care center is no longer in business.  We found one nearby that appeared to be in plan.  Called them to see and they say they are in Cigna's plan.  So I go there.  We'll see.  I'm expecting an out of network denial of their charges because Cigna sucks so much.

I changed primary care Dr's in the last 2 years and while searching Cigna's approved list, I found:  Dead doctors, doctors who had moved away, doctors who had retired, doctors who are no longer with the listed practice, doctors who are not taking new patients.

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 09, 2019, 09:52:51 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 09, 2019, 09:47:18 AM

- SNIP -

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

Anybody out there who doesn't think these medical insurance systems are rigged?

I only hear good medical stories from the Canadians.  Maybe, they are all too polite to complain.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jeroly on July 09, 2019, 09:58:44 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 09, 2019, 09:47:18 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 08, 2019, 07:12:26 PM

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

I got to work with our wonderful health insurance system.  My Primary Dr's office was closed starting Wednesday and I had a bunch of symptoms making me miserable.  Dr office said to go to Urgent Care facility.

Being that we don't want to be charged $50k for out of network, got onto Cigna's site (yes, I'm happy to call them out) and looked up Urgent Care facilities nearby.  We called the top 3.  All were out of date numbers and not for the facility listed.  Finally called Cigna.  They gave us the number of a recommended facility.  Called and guess what?  That Urgent Care center is no longer in business.  We found one nearby that appeared to be in plan.  Called them to see and they say they are in Cigna's plan.  So I go there.  We'll see.  I'm expecting an out of network denial of their charges because Cigna sucks so much.

I changed primary care Dr's in the last 2 years and while searching Cigna's approved list, I found:  Dead doctors, doctors who had moved away, doctors who had retired, doctors who are no longer with the listed practice, doctors who are not taking new patients.

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

An alternative approach could be to go to the website of the clinic you're interested in and see if they take your insurance.  For example, looking at CVS Minute Clinic's page, it lists a whole bunch of Cigna plans that it takes.  See attached image for the start of the list.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 09, 2019, 10:07:01 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 09, 2019, 09:47:18 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 08, 2019, 07:12:26 PM

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

I got to work with our wonderful health insurance system.  My Primary Dr's office was closed starting Wednesday and I had a bunch of symptoms making me miserable.  Dr office said to go to Urgent Care facility.

Being that we don't want to be charged $50k for out of network, got onto Cigna's site (yes, I'm happy to call them out) and looked up Urgent Care facilities nearby.  We called the top 3.  All were out of date numbers and not for the facility listed.  Finally called Cigna.  They gave us the number of a recommended facility.  Called and guess what?  That Urgent Care center is no longer in business.  We found one nearby that appeared to be in plan.  Called them to see and they say they are in Cigna's plan.  So I go there.  We'll see.  I'm expecting an out of network denial of their charges because Cigna sucks so much.

I changed primary care Dr's in the last 2 years and while searching Cigna's approved list, I found:  Dead doctors, doctors who had moved away, doctors who had retired, doctors who are no longer with the listed practice, doctors who are not taking new patients.

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

I’m so sorry. That is infuriating.

Is kaiser an option where you live?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 09, 2019, 11:06:29 AM

Best healthcare system in the World!.. So the lobbyests tell me...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 09, 2019, 11:09:42 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 09, 2019, 09:52:51 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 09, 2019, 09:47:18 AM

- SNIP -

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

Anybody out there who doesn't think these medical insurance systems are rigged?

I only hear good medical stories from the Canadians.  Maybe, they are all too polite to complain.

Well the Brits complain and sometimes rightly so. The thing is though is no British person has the faintest idea of what you're talking about when you say "medical bankruptcy".. No idea! it just doesn't happen.. ever!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on July 10, 2019, 04:07:24 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 09, 2019, 05:43:00 AM

Spent five enjoyable days catching up on the latest research in natural language processing and neural networks in the cool comfort of my basement. Built a plastic structure model for my model train layout. Drank some good beer.

Now: groaning at some ridiculously boring task I have to get done at work. Not sure how much longer I can last at this grind.

most people would call me crazy but that sounds like my kind of holiday!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 10, 2019, 06:13:28 AM

Simply put I feel I am still exhausted as we had a great but over indulged week of fun for the fourth!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 10, 2019, 06:37:11 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 09, 2019, 09:47:18 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 08, 2019, 07:12:26 PM

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

I got to work with our wonderful health insurance system.  My Primary Dr's office was closed starting Wednesday and I had a bunch of symptoms making me miserable.  Dr office said to go to Urgent Care facility.

Being that we don't want to be charged $50k for out of network, got onto Cigna's site (yes, I'm happy to call them out) and looked up Urgent Care facilities nearby.  We called the top 3.  All were out of date numbers and not for the facility listed.  Finally called Cigna.  They gave us the number of a recommended facility.  Called and guess what?  That Urgent Care center is no longer in business.  We found one nearby that appeared to be in plan.  Called them to see and they say they are in Cigna's plan.  So I go there.  We'll see.  I'm expecting an out of network denial of their charges because Cigna sucks so much.

I changed primary care Dr's in the last 2 years and while searching Cigna's approved list, I found:  Dead doctors, doctors who had moved away, doctors who had retired, doctors who are no longer with the listed practice, doctors who are not taking new patients.

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

When I got my first local job in this area, the insurance was by Cigna.  Apparently where the national HQ was the coverage was ok.   I ask my coworkers for a recommendation for a dentist who's covered by the plan.  The answer was, "Oh, there used to be one but he died a few years back."  I kid you not.

Turned out that some of the zip codes employees were commuting from were covered by blue cross/blue shield but the bulk were covered by cigna.   At one point over half the office were lying about where they lived so they could get on bc/bs instead.    I had a lawyer friend with the right zip code so I provided the address of my attorney to my employer for my mailing address.   That way, it wasn't technically a lie. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 10, 2019, 10:25:49 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 10, 2019, 06:37:11 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 09, 2019, 09:47:18 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 08, 2019, 07:12:26 PM

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

I got to work with our wonderful health insurance system.  My Primary Dr's office was closed starting Wednesday and I had a bunch of symptoms making me miserable.  Dr office said to go to Urgent Care facility.

Being that we don't want to be charged $50k for out of network, got onto Cigna's site (yes, I'm happy to call them out) and looked up Urgent Care facilities nearby.  We called the top 3.  All were out of date numbers and not for the facility listed.  Finally called Cigna.  They gave us the number of a recommended facility.  Called and guess what?  That Urgent Care center is no longer in business.  We found one nearby that appeared to be in plan.  Called them to see and they say they are in Cigna's plan.  So I go there.  We'll see.  I'm expecting an out of network denial of their charges because Cigna sucks so much.

I changed primary care Dr's in the last 2 years and while searching Cigna's approved list, I found:  Dead doctors, doctors who had moved away, doctors who had retired, doctors who are no longer with the listed practice, doctors who are not taking new patients.

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

When I got my first local job in this area, the insurance was by Cigna.  Apparently where the national HQ was the coverage was ok.   I ask my coworkers for a recommendation for a dentist who's covered by the plan.  The answer was, "Oh, there used to be one but he died a few years back."  I kid you not.

Turned out that some of the zip codes employees were commuting from were covered by blue cross/blue shield but the bulk were covered by cigna.   At one point over half the office were lying about where they lived so they could get on bc/bs instead.    I had a lawyer friend with the right zip code so I provided the address of my attorney to my employer for my mailing address.   That way, it wasn't technically a lie. :)

IMO, figuring shit like this out is what a true Mustachian does. Good on you!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 10, 2019, 01:53:00 PM

Though of course it is total bullshit that anyone has to resort to such tactics for something as basic as a dentist or a doctor.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 10, 2019, 06:16:46 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 10, 2019, 01:53:00 PM

Though of course it is total bullshit that anyone has to resort to such tactics for something as basic as a dentist or a doctor.

Agree to infinity and beyond.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 11, 2019, 04:06:43 AM

Different but the stupidity of the health system I have a rather large lump on my back (have had about 25 years) basically a big cyst that its time to get removed as its getting a bit bigger about the size of a large Gumball. Anyhow I was at the Y and notice a guy had the same thing and he said he was going in next week to get removed. Same spot and everything. Long story short he told me to make sure I tell the doctor it is starting to hurt otherwise the insurance company wont cover it. This isnt some little cosmetic thing they have to really go in deep to get it all and for years my doctor has told me I better get it removed that no good can come from it. Anyhow it just pisses me off that basically I need to lie to get something done that should just be done with no hassle.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 11, 2019, 07:13:35 AM

The one thing I love in "Americans" saying well we don't want British or Canadian lines for health care.  Obviously these Americans have never tried to find a Doctor in NYC.  Everyone I called, it was always a 6 week wait for an appointment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 11, 2019, 07:52:52 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 11, 2019, 04:06:43 AM

Different but the stupidity of the health system I have a rather large lump on my back (have had about 25 years) basically a big cyst that its time to get removed as its getting a bit bigger about the size of a large Gumball. Anyhow I was at the Y and notice a guy had the same thing and he said he was going in next week to get removed. Same spot and everything. Long story short he told me to make sure I tell the doctor it is starting to hurt otherwise the insurance company wont cover it. This isnt some little cosmetic thing they have to really go in deep to get it all and for years my doctor has told me I better get it removed that no good can come from it. Anyhow it just pisses me off that basically I need to lie to get something done that should just be done with no hassle.

Not to alarm you, but I had something similar. However, it didn't turn out to be a harmless lipoma. It had become a sarcoma, which is much more dangerous. Funny, when I went to the doctor, it didn't hurt. He told me if it got any bigger it was going to start pressing on nerves and become painful. Glad I listened and didn't wait. BTW, nobody expected the sarcoma. Routine pathology caught it and MD Anderson confirmed it. Don't wait.

Also, search Dr. Pimple Popper on You Tube. She handles lots of these. She has a show on cable, so start there, if you have it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 11, 2019, 01:47:15 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 11, 2019, 07:52:52 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 11, 2019, 04:06:43 AM

Different but the stupidity of the health system I have a rather large lump on my back (have had about 25 years) basically a big cyst that its time to get removed as its getting a bit bigger about the size of a large Gumball. Anyhow I was at the Y and notice a guy had the same thing and he said he was going in next week to get removed. Same spot and everything. Long story short he told me to make sure I tell the doctor it is starting to hurt otherwise the insurance company wont cover it. This isnt some little cosmetic thing they have to really go in deep to get it all and for years my doctor has told me I better get it removed that no good can come from it. Anyhow it just pisses me off that basically I need to lie to get something done that should just be done with no hassle.

Not to alarm you, but I had something similar. However, it didn't turn out to be a harmless lipoma. It had become a sarcoma, which is much more dangerous. Funny, when I went to the doctor, it didn't hurt. He told me if it got any bigger it was going to start pressing on nerves and become painful. Glad I listened and didn't wait. BTW, nobody expected the sarcoma. Routine pathology caught it and MD Anderson confirmed it. Don't wait.

Also, search Dr. Pimple Popper on You Tube. She handles lots of these. She has a show on cable, so start there, if you have it.

She is on Youtube too. If you can scam some lidocaine from somewhere and grab a steak knife you're good to go.. Frontier medicine at its best..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 11, 2019, 02:13:39 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 11, 2019, 01:47:15 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 11, 2019, 07:52:52 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 11, 2019, 04:06:43 AM

Different but the stupidity of the health system I have a rather large lump on my back (have had about 25 years) basically a big cyst that its time to get removed as its getting a bit bigger about the size of a large Gumball. Anyhow I was at the Y and notice a guy had the same thing and he said he was going in next week to get removed. Same spot and everything. Long story short he told me to make sure I tell the doctor it is starting to hurt otherwise the insurance company wont cover it. This isnt some little cosmetic thing they have to really go in deep to get it all and for years my doctor has told me I better get it removed that no good can come from it. Anyhow it just pisses me off that basically I need to lie to get something done that should just be done with no hassle.

Not to alarm you, but I had something similar. However, it didn't turn out to be a harmless lipoma. It had become a sarcoma, which is much more dangerous. Funny, when I went to the doctor, it didn't hurt. He told me if it got any bigger it was going to start pressing on nerves and become painful. Glad I listened and didn't wait. BTW, nobody expected the sarcoma. Routine pathology caught it and MD Anderson confirmed it. Don't wait.

Also, search Dr. Pimple Popper on You Tube. She handles lots of these. She has a show on cable, so start there, if you have it.

She is on Youtube too. If you can scam some lidocaine from somewhere and grab a steak knife you're good to go.. Frontier medicine at its best..;)

If I was closer, I'd give you a good smack. Hmmm, I have friends (well, more like relatives of friends) in Corvallis...maybe I can commission them to do a little work for me, if you know what I mean.

Edit - Oh wait! I misread who wrote what. Nevermind. No, not nevermind. No lidocaine and no cutting from either of you. Do you boys hear me? I mean it!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 11, 2019, 02:14:02 PM

Looks like the Dow Jones is headed for another new high!  It has bumped 27,000 for the first time.  If it doesn't crash in the last hour of the day, it will be good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FIREstache on July 11, 2019, 02:27:35 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 11, 2019, 02:14:02 PM

Looks like the Dow Jones is headed for another new high!  It has bumped 27,000 for the first time.  If it doesn't crash in the last hour of the day, it will be good.

The S&P 500 couldn't quite close at 3000 today.  Final was 2999.91

My stash hit a new record, so in all, a good day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 11, 2019, 02:47:50 PM

Quote from: FIREstache on July 11, 2019, 02:27:35 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 11, 2019, 02:14:02 PM

Looks like the Dow Jones is headed for another new high!  It has bumped 27,000 for the first time.  If it doesn't crash in the last hour of the day, it will be good.

The S&P 500 couldn't quite close at 3000 today.  Final was 2999.91

My stash hit a new record, so in all, a good day.

Almost getting mundane.  We need a crash so I don't get silly and FIRE. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 11, 2019, 03:10:26 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 11, 2019, 02:47:50 PM

Quote from: FIREstache on July 11, 2019, 02:27:35 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 11, 2019, 02:14:02 PM

Looks like the Dow Jones is headed for another new high!  It has bumped 27,000 for the first time.  If it doesn't crash in the last hour of the day, it will be good.

The S&P 500 couldn't quite close at 3000 today.  Final was 2999.91

My stash hit a new record, so in all, a good day.

Almost getting mundane.  We need a crash so I don't get silly and FIRE.

Sssssshhhh!... :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on July 11, 2019, 04:37:57 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 11, 2019, 07:52:52 AM

Also, search Dr. Pimple Popper on You Tube. She handles lots of these. She has a show on cable, so start there, if you have it.

FWIW, don’t watch Dr. Pimple Popper on YouTube. Just yuck. Bleh.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 11, 2019, 05:16:24 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on July 11, 2019, 04:37:57 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 11, 2019, 07:52:52 AM

Also, search Dr. Pimple Popper on You Tube. She handles lots of these. She has a show on cable, so start there, if you have it.

FWIW, don’t watch Dr. Pimple Popper on YouTube. Just yuck. Bleh.

Just remember.. You have to get the sac out..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 11, 2019, 07:12:24 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on July 11, 2019, 04:37:57 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 11, 2019, 07:52:52 AM

Also, search Dr. Pimple Popper on You Tube. She handles lots of these. She has a show on cable, so start there, if you have it.

FWIW, don’t watch Dr. Pimple Popper on YouTube. Just yuck. Bleh.

I totally agree. The TV show is different than YT in that she doesn't extract much, she does bigger stuff that requires cutting and stitching [squick]. Lots of lipomas, which is why I made the recommendation, which I stand by. I only mentioned YT in case our friend doesn't have cable.

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 11, 2019, 05:16:24 PM

Just remember.. You have to get the sac out..:)

Aha! Proof that Frank has cable! We know he can afford it, so no face punches required.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 12, 2019, 12:10:01 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 11, 2019, 07:12:24 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on July 11, 2019, 04:37:57 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 11, 2019, 07:52:52 AM

Also, search Dr. Pimple Popper on You Tube. She handles lots of these. She has a show on cable, so start there, if you have it.

FWIW, don’t watch Dr. Pimple Popper on YouTube. Just yuck. Bleh.

I totally agree. The TV show is different than YT in that she doesn't extract much, she does bigger stuff that requires cutting and stitching [squick]. Lots of lipomas, which is why I made the recommendation, which I stand by. I only mentioned YT in case our friend doesn't have cable.

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 11, 2019, 05:16:24 PM

Just remember.. You have to get the sac out..:)

Aha! Proof that Frank has cable! We know he can afford it, so no face punches required.

No he bloody well doesn't! I have the finest in $10 rabbit ears from Walmart..:)

Getting the sac out (using the blunt disection method) is featured heavily on her YT videos.. So there!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on July 12, 2019, 02:20:20 AM

Has anyone seen these alternative graphs for CPI?

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts

They are kind of scary--~10% inflation if using the pre 1980's formula.  For awhile I have felt suspicious of the CPI because it feels like prices are going up much more than what the CPI would suggest.  I know it excludes food and other things but I haven't ever dug into it too deeply.

Are we under-reporting what actual inflation is so we can feel good about things?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 12, 2019, 02:33:00 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 12, 2019, 12:10:01 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 11, 2019, 07:12:24 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on July 11, 2019, 04:37:57 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 11, 2019, 07:52:52 AM

Also, search Dr. Pimple Popper on You Tube. She handles lots of these. She has a show on cable, so start there, if you have it.

FWIW, don’t watch Dr. Pimple Popper on YouTube. Just yuck. Bleh.

I totally agree. The TV show is different than YT in that she doesn't extract much, she does bigger stuff that requires cutting and stitching [squick]. Lots of lipomas, which is why I made the recommendation, which I stand by. I only mentioned YT in case our friend doesn't have cable.

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 11, 2019, 05:16:24 PM

Just remember.. You have to get the sac out..:)

Aha! Proof that Frank has cable! We know he can afford it, so no face punches required.

No he bloody well doesn't! I have the finest in $10 rabbit ears from Walmart..:)

Getting the sac out (using the blunt disection method) is featured heavily on her YT videos.. So there!

Well that's a big-ass relief. I know you're living pretty close to the edge of the safe withdrawal rate, pal. God forbid you should have to go back to work. (Hee)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 12, 2019, 02:41:29 AM

Prices have gone up for sure but inflation is relatively low

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 12, 2019, 02:49:40 AM

Quote from: carstenjames on July 12, 2019, 02:20:20 AM

Are we under-reporting what actual inflation is so we can feel good about things?

Haven't we always? Just for fun, take a look at how unemployment figures are calculated. Same kind of manipulation. I guess maybe the point is that if you use the same requirements consistently (even if they're absurd ), over time you can still produce meaningful data?

https://www.thebalance.com/unemployment-rate-formula-3305515

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on July 12, 2019, 03:33:19 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 12, 2019, 02:49:40 AM

Quote from: carstenjames on July 12, 2019, 02:20:20 AM

Are we under-reporting what actual inflation is so we can feel good about things?

I guess maybe the point is that if you use the same requirements consistently (even if they're absurd ), over time you can still produce meaningful data?

https://www.thebalance.com/unemployment-rate-formula-3305515

If I am doing a monte carlo simulation and i’m using a measure of inflation thats going to leave me with an income in 30 yrs that allows me to only buy 1/2 of what i could 30 years ago... thats scary.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 12, 2019, 04:28:46 PM

Quote from: carstenjames on July 12, 2019, 03:33:19 PM

- SNIP -

If I am doing a monte carlo simulation and i’m using a measure of inflation thats going to leave me with an income in 30 yrs that allows me to only buy 1/2 of what i could 30 years ago... thats scary.

Well - It's only a guess.

Let's see 2019 - 30 = 1989

http://www.in2013dollars.com/New-cars/price-inflation/1989 (http://www.in2013dollars.com/New-cars/price-inflation/1989) - CARS

https://www.officialdata.org/Food/price-inflation/1989 (https://www.officialdata.org/Food/price-inflation/1989) - food

https://www.officialdata.org/Electricity/price-inflation/1989 (https://www.officialdata.org/Electricity/price-inflation/1989) - electricity

All of these are from the US government.  Can you believe what the government tells you?  Maybe -I'm not sure the moon shot 50 years ago was actually a fake.

Based on past performance, it doesn't look so bad.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 12, 2019, 04:31:20 PM

Another record breaker today.  It doesn't look so bad.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on July 12, 2019, 04:36:49 PM

Monte Carlo simulations aren't very good proxies for real life. I don't think a Monte Carlo simulation is helpful. I'd rather look at periods of time as a useful metric regarding inflation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 12, 2019, 06:33:22 PM

Start out with a 3% withdrawal and be prepared for 2% withdrawal or less in tough times.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 13, 2019, 03:50:11 AM

I thought for sure there was going to be profit taking yesterday....sure glad i dont trade like I use to and am just a passive investor because I would of surely been wrong yet again with this market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 13, 2019, 08:48:54 AM

It's now definite - I'm going to quit by the years end. My wife is completely on board with my retirement plans.

Why not right away? I'm seeing some signs of instability in my company and I suspect that layoffs may happen at some point in the next few months. It would be great to leave with a severance package :-)  If I've misread the signs, no problem, I'll leave before I have to write my yearly accomplishments.

I started work in 1991 and have worked 28 straight years in tech (mostly AI). I am proud that I've lasted this long in an industry thats heavily biased towards younger employees. I've successfully reinvented myself every few years but it's definitely getting harder. As Pink Floyd says in the song Breathe (from the Dark Side of the Moon).

Quote

For long you live and high you fly
But only if you ride the tide
And balanced on the biggest wave
You race towards an early grave.

After I retire, I still will keep up with the literature and try to be an independent researcher but with the pressure of work reduced, it will become fun again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on July 13, 2019, 02:50:57 PM

In what ways did you have to reinvent yourself every few years in AI ?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 14, 2019, 04:03:45 AM

Well all the best to you @2sk22 . I didnt even think that AI was a thing 28 years ago be interesting to hear your story a bit about the evolution of that idustry

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 14, 2019, 04:32:58 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 14, 2019, 04:03:45 AM

Well all the best to you @2sk22 . I didnt even think that AI was a thing 28 years ago be interesting to hear your story a bit about the evolution of that idustry

There was a big wave of excitement about neural networks in the early 90s so I picked that as my dissertation topic. I was fortunate and was able to graduate fairly quickly - one of the good things about being early in a field. In fact, the papers I wrote have racked up a few hundred citations since then.

The bad thing about being early in a field: I used to get blank looks when I told people that I was working in neural networks. Consequently, I had to find a job in a completely unrelated area in computing. I'm not complaining - I was always very well paid but it was not my first choice of work.

About 10 years ago I realized that neural networks were becoming interesting again, so I worked hard to get myself back into the field. But machine learning by itself is not all that interesting and I have always had an interest in languages. So another scramble followed to get into natural language processing. In the tech world, it's all too easy to become irrelevant!

My interests have now moved more to human cognition nowadays - I just started reading a great book by Terrence Deacon about the evolution of the human mind.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FIREstache on July 14, 2019, 05:36:21 AM

Quote from: carstenjames on July 12, 2019, 02:20:20 AM

Are we under-reporting what actual inflation is so we can feel good about things?

Yeah, and it's getting worse.  With the new tax law, the tax table thresholds for marginal rates are indexed to chained CPI now, so that more income will spill over into higher tax brackets.  This is supposed to generate an extra 128 BILLION dollars over 10 years.

I don't track my personal inflation that closely, but it seems to be higher than what CPI or core inflation is reported.  I just got my homeowners insurance a while ago, and it's up 6% over last year.  Car registration just went up 50%.  Gas tax just increased 100%.   This is probably a bigger threat to using the 4% rule than many of the other concerns - prices/fees/taxes are almost guaranteed to go up faster than inflation that is used to calculate "real" returns.

Quote from: Bateaux on July 12, 2019, 06:33:22 PM

Start out with a 3% withdrawal and be prepared for 2% withdrawal or less in tough times.

3% is probably a good suggestion considering the above.  I was aiming for some middle ground at about 3.5% WR through the first 10 years of FIRE, then drop to 2.2% when SS kicks in to cover the rest.  When and how much to do a forced reduction due to tough times is a tougher call.  I have a conservative AA, so if the market crashed, I could go some years without having to touch equities if I had to, but I would still be inclined to reduce discretionary spending if real returns on stocks go negative.  2% would still allow me to live pretty comfortably with a reasonable amount of discretionary.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: alienbogey on July 14, 2019, 09:27:02 PM

I guess I'll play.

As I type this $2.088m in investable assets per the OP's rules.

$ 1.78m tax protected accounts.  $311k non tax protected.  (USA)

100% equities.  Approximately $400k in individual stocks, the balance in sector and index funds.

Yeah, we're overdue for a bear market, but we'll just ride it out like we always have.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 15, 2019, 07:08:42 AM

Quote from: alienbogey on July 14, 2019, 09:27:02 PM

I guess I'll play.

As I type this $2.088m in investable assets per the OP's rules.

$ 1.78m tax protected accounts.  $311k non tax protected.  (USA)

100% equities.  Approximately $400k in individual stocks, the balance in sector and index funds.

Yeah, we're overdue for a bear market, but we'll just ride it out like we always have.

Ride it out in the bear market.

https://www.google.com/search?q=woman+riding+the+bear+picture&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=pdhL9kMdeZPVoM%253A%252Ceq8UVippolPnwM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRQrv5mJjqVtdqlLBD3tY8YtV-kGA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjqlILm_rbjAhVSQ80KHaOGDiAQ9QEwAHoECAkQBA&biw=1366&bih=654#imgrc=pdhL9kMdeZPVoM: (https://www.google.com/search?q=woman+riding+the+bear+picture&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=pdhL9kMdeZPVoM%253A%252Ceq8UVippolPnwM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRQrv5mJjqVtdqlLBD3tY8YtV-kGA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjqlILm_rbjAhVSQ80KHaOGDiAQ9QEwAHoECAkQBA&biw=1366&bih=654#imgrc=pdhL9kMdeZPVoM:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 16, 2019, 03:29:32 AM

Wow this just all sounds depressing!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 16, 2019, 10:03:02 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 16, 2019, 03:29:32 AM

Wow this just all sounds depressing!

I prefer to think of it as affirming. Markets always go up. Markets always go down. It's entirely predictable  What's less certain are the exact intervals. Talking about this and supporting each other helps prevent wholesale panic when the inevitable happens.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 16, 2019, 10:06:33 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 16, 2019, 03:29:32 AM

Wow this just all sounds depressing!

Ok.  How about something completely different.

Are we in the advanced class now beyond risk?

Can we just nonchalantly keep our money at higher risk now?

A 50 percent drop in the market only drops any of us to $1,000,000 if fully invested.

400K of my stash is in a cashable pension. 

200K of my stash is in VBTLX.

As long as you can live Mustacian for a few years, you're good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 16, 2019, 11:02:29 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 16, 2019, 10:06:33 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 16, 2019, 03:29:32 AM

Wow this just all sounds depressing!

Ok.  How about something completely different.

Are we in the advanced class now beyond risk?

Can we just nonchalantly keep our money at higher risk now?

A 50 percent drop in the market only drops any of us to $1,000,000 if fully invested.

400K of my stash is in a cashable pension. 

200K of my stash is in VBTLX.

As long as you can live Mustacian for a few years, you're good.

Exactly.. My current WR is about 1.5%.. A 50% dump in the entire portfolio puts me at 3%.

My current VBTLX/ca$h would last us over 18 years... or until I'm 76.

Heck if the market does take a 50% haircut I might even move to 95/5 just because it would be entertaining to see our NW go ballistic on the recovery..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 16, 2019, 01:08:40 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 16, 2019, 03:29:32 AM

Wow this just all sounds depressing!

It sets me off the deep end:

Yeh - I try to figure all of this stuff out big picture and I never can.  I figure part of it is somehow based on the chaos theory.  You know the math thing where they say a butterfly flapping his wings can somehow induce a hurricane on the other side of the world.  Sounds fantastic to me but there are black holes, quantum theory and dark matter.  The world is full of fantastic things.

Smart people claim there is a business cycle and we are overdue for the downturn.  The last one was bad.  Too much debt in buoyed up housing prices where the productivity of the worker paying off the debt couldn't match the wants of the creditor.  They say the debt is rising again.  Housing prices have certainly gone up.  Zillow says my house is 160 percent of what I paid for it.  Some small financial butterfly may induce that hurricane.

I look at that Dow Jones chart.  I guess it hit another record yesterday.  It has the appearance of positive feedback.  It won't stop until the system implodes upon itself.  It seems to have little basis in reality.  Most of us have new electronic gizmos, but the stability has gone out of a lot of people's lives.  The future is uncertain and the end is always near.

You can have a million dollars after a crash, but if the system has imploded your money will just be numbers on a computer screen.  They say it can't happen here, but they say lots of things, don't they?  Some say we don't have the global warming thing while others show us the glaciers disappearing.  Then there's things we used to worry about 50 years ago - about the time we went to the moon.  I haven't heard the phrase nuclear armageddon in a while.  Has the chance of it gone away?  I don't think so.

They wisely put in a lot of checks and balances after the great depression of 1929.  I've heard they've been removing them a little at a time.  Who is out there protecting you?  Is it government rules or rules of the banks?  When the crash comes, they will come to claim their borrowed chips.  When the chips just aren't there, what is going to happen?

https://io9.gizmodo.com/12-ways-to-prepare-for-the-next-great-depression-378581 (https://io9.gizmodo.com/12-ways-to-prepare-for-the-next-great-depression-378581)

Nah - Nothing to be depressed about.  Just have your master plan to back down to 3 percent for a bit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 17, 2019, 09:14:59 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 16, 2019, 01:08:40 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 16, 2019, 03:29:32 AM

Wow this just all sounds depressing!

It sets me off the deep end:

Yeh - I try to figure all of this stuff out big picture and I never can.  I figure part of it is somehow based on the chaos theory.  You know the math thing where they say a butterfly flapping his wings can somehow induce a hurricane on the other side of the world.  Sounds fantastic to me but there are black holes, quantum theory and dark matter.  The world is full of fantastic things.

Smart people claim there is a business cycle and we are overdue for the downturn.  The last one was bad.  Too much debt in buoyed up housing prices where the productivity of the worker paying off the debt couldn't match the wants of the creditor.  They say the debt is rising again.  Housing prices have certainly gone up.  Zillow says my house is 160 percent of what I paid for it.  Some small financial butterfly may induce that hurricane.

I look at that Dow Jones chart.  I guess it hit another record yesterday.  It has the appearance of positive feedback.  It won't stop until the system implodes upon itself.  It seems to have little basis in reality.  Most of us have new electronic gizmos, but the stability has gone out of a lot of people's lives.  The future is uncertain and the end is always near.

You can have a million dollars after a crash, but if the system has imploded your money will just be numbers on a computer screen.  They say it can't happen here, but they say lots of things, don't they?  Some say we don't have the global warming thing while others show us the glaciers disappearing.  Then there's things we used to worry about 50 years ago - about the time we went to the moon.  I haven't heard the phrase nuclear armageddon in a while.  Has the chance of it gone away?  I don't think so.

They wisely put in a lot of checks and balances after the great depression of 1929.  I've heard they've been removing them a little at a time.  Who is out there protecting you?  Is it government rules or rules of the banks?  When the crash comes, they will come to claim their borrowed chips.  When the chips just aren't there, what is going to happen?

https://io9.gizmodo.com/12-ways-to-prepare-for-the-next-great-depression-378581 (https://io9.gizmodo.com/12-ways-to-prepare-for-the-next-great-depression-378581)

Nah - Nothing to be depressed about.  Just have your master plan to back down to 3 percent for a bit.

Wow! One thing FIRE did for me was free me from worrying about all this crap. I lived for years on very little while I was reaching for my goals, I know I have the skills to live on less, but now I don't have to. Not all recessions are huge, why assume the next one will be devastating?

I just re-read your post. If you have enough to be a member of this group and still feel this way, you're doing something wrong. Living with this level of fear is anti-mustachian, and incredibly sad. Frankly, it's a wasteful use of your life energy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 17, 2019, 12:00:40 PM

Yeah @Dicey On the one hand we should have the freedom to not worry at all, but the habits that got us to this happy place involves a degree of worry.

Old habits die hard I guess ..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 17, 2019, 04:35:16 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 17, 2019, 12:00:40 PM

Yeah @Dicey On the one hand we should have the freedom to not worry at all, but the habits that got us to this happy place involves a degree of worry.

Old habits die hard I guess ..:)

Dunno, if you read that specific post, you might agree that's an unusual level of worry. Worrying over "What ifs?" that you have absolutely no control over is counterproductive IMO. Also IMO, (since you didn't ask ;-) is a possible solution. Do something to help others. Volunteer somewhere, help a friend or neighbor out, whatever. It's the best tonic for almost anything that ails you, instead of worrying about far-fetched doomsday scenarios. How the hell do you think we got this far? It's not likely that we're going to wake up on any given morning and find life as we know it suddenly and irrevocably changed. Even after terrible things happen (God forbid) we figure out a new normal and get on with the business of living. Prepare, yes, to a reasonable degree. Worry all the time? Hell, no!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 17, 2019, 05:19:09 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 17, 2019, 04:35:16 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 17, 2019, 12:00:40 PM

Yeah @Dicey On the one hand we should have the freedom to not worry at all, but the habits that got us to this happy place involves a degree of worry.

Old habits die hard I guess ..:)

Dunno, if you read that specific post, you might agree that's an unusual level of worry. Worrying over "What ifs?" that you have absolutely no control over is counterproductive IMO. Also IMO, (since you didn't ask ;-) is a possible solution. Do something to help others. Volunteer somewhere, help a friend or neighbor out, whatever. It's the best tonic for almost anything that ails you, instead of worrying about far-fetched doomsday scenarios. How the hell do you think we got this far? It's not likely that we're going to wake up on any given morning and find life as we know it suddenly and irrevocably changed. Even after terrible things happen (God forbid) we figure out a new normal and get on with the business of living. Prepare, yes, to a reasonable degree. Worry all the time? Hell, no!

Reread the last line to know just how serious I was about all of that.  None of that keeps me up at night.  I was just tossing in two cents of BS.

I'm not quite retired yet, but the volunteering idea IS a wonderful idea. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 17, 2019, 05:21:52 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 17, 2019, 05:19:09 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 17, 2019, 04:35:16 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 17, 2019, 12:00:40 PM

Yeah @Dicey On the one hand we should have the freedom to not worry at all, but the habits that got us to this happy place involves a degree of worry.

Old habits die hard I guess ..:)

Dunno, if you read that specific post, you might agree that's an unusual level of worry. Worrying over "What ifs?" that you have absolutely no control over is counterproductive IMO. Also IMO, (since you didn't ask ;-) is a possible solution. Do something to help others. Volunteer somewhere, help a friend or neighbor out, whatever. It's the best tonic for almost anything that ails you, instead of worrying about far-fetched doomsday scenarios. How the hell do you think we got this far? It's not likely that we're going to wake up on any given morning and find life as we know it suddenly and irrevocably changed. Even after terrible things happen (God forbid) we figure out a new normal and get on with the business of living. Prepare, yes, to a reasonable degree. Worry all the time? Hell, no!

Reread the last line to know just how serious I was about all of that.  None of that keeps me up at night.  I was just tossing in two cents of BS.

I'm not quite retired yet, but the volunteering idea IS a wonderful idea.

I did read your last line, several times. I was hoping the rest was all rather tongue in cheek. What a relief! Who can carry all that shit around in their heads and still have a happy, carefree life?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 17, 2019, 05:30:29 PM

Well a lot of it is still real.

As the old AA prayer goes:

God grant the serenity to change the things you can change, accept the things you can't and have the wisdom to know the difference.

I haven't been to AA, but that prayer always made a lot of sense.

Again, it fits in with the volunteering as helping someone else is a change that one can do both for yourself and others.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 18, 2019, 04:23:26 AM

All we have is historical data so things will come back typically I believe its two years but what if not this time? I dont really worry about it but I do think about it as it keeps me sharp on my toes i believe. I would be fine with a 50% drop and not panic but it would be a gut bust because it has been so good and with politics you just dont know. Anyhow I like the position we are in and thats all we can do as there are no guarantees ever.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 18, 2019, 07:48:36 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 18, 2019, 04:23:26 AM

All we have is historical data so things will come back typically I believe its two years but what if not this time? I dont really worry about it but I do think about it as it keeps me sharp on my toes i believe. I would be fine with a 50% drop and not panic but it would be a gut bust because it has been so good and with politics you just dont know. Anyhow I like the position we are in and thats all we can do as there are no guarantees ever.

You bet!  When I get down these days, I take a step back, smile and think I won't ever have to work again.

Things ought to be good.  People are working.  They need new stuff.  They are buying it.  Some have had it bad for some time and now are working.  there is lots of stuff that has fallen apart that needs to be repaired, i.e. roads, bridges, etc.  Gas prices are still relatively low and more is produced domestically.  There are only the BS wars going on and not a big one.  Home prices are going up and that only means people have money to spend on said houses.

Stock markets keep hitting all time highs!

I think even politics are going to change for the better.  An election is coming up next year.  The folks in power want to keep the good times rolling until the election.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 18, 2019, 08:21:53 AM

I've been reading this thread and thinking about how many times in the last nine years or so (since things started to bounce back after the 2008 dip) we've sat around and said another pull back is coming. I specifically remember that folks were predicting it after Trump was elected and we had the "Trump Bump". There were times in the last nine years that I sat on cash because I was waiting for a dip. I know, I know, shame on me for trying to time the market.

Not that far up thread you all were teaching me that in order to live off my investments successfully, I've got to be flexible. Because one cannot wait until it your net assets hit some magical number that will be "enough". There are too many factors to determine that.

And a 1.5% WR is CRAZY.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 18, 2019, 11:16:28 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 18, 2019, 08:21:53 AM

Not that far up thread you all were teaching me that in order to live off my investments successfully, I've got to be flexible. Because one cannot wait until it your net assets hit some magical number that will be "enough". There are too many factors to determine that.

And a 1.5% WR is CRAZY.

I would agree with you but (as a 1.5%er)  I am a "victim" of circumstance. When I RE'd in Jan '14 we were comfortably at around a 3% WR. Since then our investments have roughly doubled but our spend has not gone up much.

So unless we start buying sports cars and flying business class everywhere there is not much I can do about it. Buying stuff really doesn't bring us much pleasure.

Maybe during/after the next recession our standard international airline seat will be business class.. Would be nice..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 18, 2019, 11:26:12 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 18, 2019, 11:16:28 AM

  I am a "victim" of circumstance.

How Terrible! ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 18, 2019, 11:28:50 AM

Quote from: lhamo on July 18, 2019, 11:03:52 AM

For a variety of reasons, I am seriously contemplating shifting to a rising equity glidepath, as discussed by Kitces in this article:

https://www.kitces.com/blog/should-equity-exposure-decrease-in-retirement-or-is-a-rising-equity-glidepath-actually-better/

Basically what this seems to do is ensure that your initial stash is not hit by SORR early on in your FIRE journey.  You may lose out on some returns early on if the markets continue to rise, but you also mitigate your risk substantially.

Wondering if anyone else is using this strategy.

I had not heard of this, but it makes sense. I'm curious though, if you've had an AA of 80/20 through your accumulation years how do you switch to a glidepath strategy for retirement? Especially an early retirement? How do you implement this?

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 18, 2019, 11:59:33 AM

Quote from: lhamo on July 18, 2019, 11:03:52 AM

For a variety of reasons, I am seriously contemplating shifting to a rising equity glidepath, as discussed by Kitces in this article:

https://www.kitces.com/blog/should-equity-exposure-decrease-in-retirement-or-is-a-rising-equity-glidepath-actually-better/

Basically what this seems to do is ensure that your initial stash is not hit by SORR early on in your FIRE journey.  You may lose out on some returns early on if the markets continue to rise, but you also mitigate your risk substantially.

Wondering if anyone else is using this strategy.

That has been my plan up until a week ago when I got the Living Off Your Money book by this guy McClung. It is a beast of a textbook with massive amounts of simulations and data to back up his recommendations.

In a nutshell he goes through a bunch of asset allocation strategies as well as drawdown strategies and while the reverse equities glidepath is decent (better than annual rebalancing of a static AA), it isn’t as good as the best strategies he recommends.

I’m only halfway through the book and find it immensely valuable. I’d love a virtual book club if anyone else is interested and wants to toss ideas around with me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 18, 2019, 02:03:01 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 18, 2019, 11:59:33 AM

Quote from: lhamo on July 18, 2019, 11:03:52 AM

For a variety of reasons, I am seriously contemplating shifting to a rising equity glidepath, as discussed by Kitces in this article:

https://www.kitces.com/blog/should-equity-exposure-decrease-in-retirement-or-is-a-rising-equity-glidepath-actually-better/

Basically what this seems to do is ensure that your initial stash is not hit by SORR early on in your FIRE journey.  You may lose out on some returns early on if the markets continue to rise, but you also mitigate your risk substantially.

Wondering if anyone else is using this strategy.

That has been my plan up until a week ago when I got the Living Off Your Money book by this guy McClung. It is a beast of a textbook with massive amounts of simulations and data to back up his recommendations.

In a nutshell he goes through a bunch of asset allocation strategies as well as drawdown strategies and while the reverse equities glidepath is decent (better than annual rebalancing of a static AA), it isn’t as good as the best strategies he recommends.

I’m only halfway through the book and find it immensely valuable. I’d love a virtual book club if anyone else is interested and wants to toss ideas around with me.

Just remember the answer will be... 42...:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZLtcTZP2js

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 18, 2019, 03:24:13 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 05, 2019, 08:14:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 03, 2019, 03:35:56 PM

Nobody ever defined the membership rules for this club.

With all due respect, I defined it in the first post when I started this thread.

Quote

As with the "2" thread, I'm counting investable assets.  Not house, not rental property, not cars, not silver coins.  Too easy to cheat with stuff that needs to be valued, in my humble opinion.

The intent of defining it this way was to say that what you're counting is what you could reasonably liquidate to live on right now.  You wouldn't liquidate your house right now, so it doesn't count.  Note that this has nothing to do with net worth. 

Other things might be available IF (big if) you could liquidate it in....lets say 2 weeks and it could then be spent to support you.  A pension?  Sure....IF (again, big if), you have a lump sum option that you qualify to cash in now.  I have a lump sum option in a small pension worth about $50k.  But it isn't available until I hit 65, so it's worth zero.

So I hope this helps define what we're counting.

Well, shoot.   I just got home from VayKay (business class long haul, ExFlyboy, and it was swweeeeeeettt) and see that my membership in this club may be revoked.  I don't have 2M+ in cash assets.   I'd have to do some serious counting, but I'd likely be in the 1-2MM club by that definition of "investable assets", and possibly booted out of that club as well.  My 10 paid for rental houses, valued conservatively, are well past 3MM and into the "and beyond" category, yet they don't count?    I consider them liquid, as they could be sold to live on if I needed it or chose to simplify.  Price them cheap enough and they'll sell by the end of the week.  But why have a fire sale when the income averages 10%?  My investment retirement planner projects that at an average rate of return, I'll die with 14MM.   That's with everything just the way it is, not liquidating rentals to buy stocks.   But I ain't dead yet! 

It's been a couple of years since I read your first post, and the thread was pretty slow for a long time.  I never re-read the requirements.   Maybe I never qualified at all!   I knew I was an outlier with the RE to stock ratio, but I didn't think I'd get the boot outta here.    Bigger Pockets has too much noise for my taste, although it's RE focused, unlike this forum.  Also,  I'm getting less Moustachian as time goes by, so not a good fit in the lower threads that focus on saving.   Awww, please let me stay, Car Jack! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on July 18, 2019, 06:12:48 PM

JoJoP

Just because your rentals are not paper REIT's does not throw you out of the club.
As long as your assets are income producing and liqifiable without making you homeless, you still easily qualify for this club.

You've got investable assets.  The valuation is the iffy part.  Zillow/Redfin values are iffy, but if you assume 1/2 those values, I'd say those are bankable values.  Stock market values are similarly iffy in the nearer term, but those seem to be allowed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 18, 2019, 06:58:34 PM

Maybe we should have a "race to die with $10M+".... :)

Actually thats a better race really.. I mean if you're 90 years old with $1M in assets thats much less impressive than $1M at say 40.

Than again, if I got $1M+ at 90 something has gone seriously wrong.. oops!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 18, 2019, 09:15:16 PM

Here is a review of the "Living Off Your Money" book noted a few posts back by lHamo.  This one looks like one to search for in my local public library.

https://monevator.com/review-living-off-your-money-by-michael-mcclung/ (https://monevator.com/review-living-off-your-money-by-michael-mcclung/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 19, 2019, 04:23:32 AM

Thanks @pecunia sounds interesting. Going to see if I can snag a copy at the library.

On another note the thing that is shocking is how many peoples portfolio have grown so much even being fire'd. I suppose if your living of 1.5 draw-down and have been mostly stocks. I feel like I have missed the boat some though I am up 400k over the last 5 years but I also have had large College expenses and have redone 90% of my home (75-100k) and bought a 40k boat but I also have had some income. But I seem stuck tip toeing in and out the top of this club. 60/40 Portfolio probably wasnt the best but its one of those things if I would of went higher like 80/20 then with my luck market would of tanked. Like I said I am happy and feel blessed were where we are Up while withdrawing but shucks! lol.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 19, 2019, 08:41:02 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 18, 2019, 06:58:34 PM

Maybe we should have a "race to die with $10M+".... :)

Actually thats a better race really.. I mean if you're 90 years old with $1M in assets thats much less impressive than $1M at say 40.

Than again, if I got $1M+ at 90 something has gone seriously wrong.. oops!

I hope we don't actually 'have to' die when we hit 10M!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on July 19, 2019, 10:31:34 AM

Thanks for the rec, ysette9.

A few pages back on this thread (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-from-$2m-to-$3m/msg2356650/#msg2356650) this topic was brought up, and I found a lot of interesting thoughtful ideas from the ERN series, specifically:
https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/09/13/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-19-equity-glidepaths/ (https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/09/13/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-19-equity-glidepaths/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 19, 2019, 01:02:18 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 19, 2019, 08:41:02 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 18, 2019, 06:58:34 PM

Maybe we should have a "race to die with $10M+".... :)

Actually thats a better race really.. I mean if you're 90 years old with $1M in assets thats much less impressive than $1M at say 40.

Than again, if I got $1M+ at 90 something has gone seriously wrong.. oops!

I hope we don't actually 'have to' die when we hit 10M!

At 9.5M just increase your Withdrawal so you don't hit it and die! Sounds like an Outer Limits episdoe...  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 19, 2019, 01:57:34 PM

Quote from: PathtoFIRE on July 19, 2019, 10:31:34 AM

Thanks for the rec, ysette9.

A few pages back on this thread (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-from-$2m-to-$3m/msg2356650/#msg2356650) this topic was brought up, and I found a lot of interesting thoughtful ideas from the ERN series, specifically:
https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/09/13/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-19-equity-glidepaths/ (https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/09/13/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-19-equity-glidepaths/)

I really like that series. I’m just stuck on how I can’t reproduce the Part 21 findings using cFIREsim, so I can’t decide whether it is lower risk to lay down/off the mortgage or not in the context of hedging against sequence of returns risk. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on July 19, 2019, 05:44:21 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 12, 2019, 06:33:22 PM

Start out with a 3% withdrawal and be prepared for 2% withdrawal or less in tough times.

I budgeted a 4% WR.  Our actual WR is around 1.3%.  Headroom!  (Driven by lower than budgeted expenses and NW gains.)

FIREd for almost 3 years now.

Edit: Fixed math errors.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PowerStache on July 20, 2019, 09:16:28 PM

Hello, there.  Dipping my toes into the waters of this thread.

My DH and I have >$3.5M invested assets.  I FIRE'd almost 4 months ago from a 26 year career in the power generation industry.  Loved the technical challenges and the team, hated the 24-7 stress of being connected to work.  DH works for the federal government and enjoys working.  He also has is able to work from home 2 days per week, and has a lot of flexibility in when he earns and takes time off.  I am enjoying spending more time with our very active sons and other family members as well as gardening and focusing on wellness.

To me, our story to make it to this thread has been fairly simple.  It's a combination of hard work, smart decisions and luck.  DH and I were married 18 years ago and from the beginning we have made good decisions with our money, putting away for retirement and investing in taxable accounts.  Our hard work (and luck) got us good paying jobs.  We have had some other luck in that I had a fantastic bonus structure while I was working.

Along the way, we probably wouldn't be mistaken for Mr. Money Mustache...I've never biked to work, we buy new (with cash) cars, and we purchase services we could do ourselves (ie house cleaning, oil changes and haircuts).  But I feel like we do work to make sure when we spend our money, we feel like we get value from it.  We love to use coupons, we over analyze before making large purchases, and we do not feel the need to keep up with the Joneses.

I want to echo what I have read a lot on this forum...the first million seems to take forever. Now with this net worth, the investment growth is at a rate where we haven't even felt it the affects of losing my income.

Loving life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 20, 2019, 11:32:42 PM

Quote from: PowerStache on July 20, 2019, 09:16:28 PM

Hello, there.  Dipping my toes into the waters of this thread.

My DH and I have >$3.5M invested assets.  I FIRE'd almost 4 months ago from a 26 year career in the power generation industry.  Loved the technical challenges and the team, hated the 24-7 stress of being connected to work.  DH works for the federal government and enjoys working.  He also has is able to work from home 2 days per week, and has a lot of flexibility in when he earns and takes time off.  I am enjoying spending more time with our very active sons and other family members as well as gardening and focusing on wellness.

To me, our story to make it to this thread has been fairly simple.  It's a combination of hard work, smart decisions and luck.  DH and I were married 18 years ago and from the beginning we have made good decisions with our money, putting away for retirement and investing in taxable accounts.  Our hard work (and luck) got us good paying jobs.  We have had some other luck in that I had a fantastic bonus structure while I was working.

Along the way, we probably wouldn't be mistaken for Mr. Money Mustache...I've never biked to work, we buy new (with cash) cars, and we purchase services we could do ourselves (ie house cleaning, oil changes and haircuts).  But I feel like we do work to make sure when we spend our money, we feel like we get value from it.  We love to use coupons, we over analyze before making large purchases, and we do not feel the need to keep up with the Joneses.

I want to echo what I have read a lot on this forum...the first million seems to take forever. Now with this net worth, the investment growth is at a rate where we haven't even felt it the affects of losing my income.

Loving life.

Congratulations and welcome!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 21, 2019, 02:39:30 AM

Quote from: PowerStache on July 20, 2019, 09:16:28 PM

Hello, there.  Dipping my toes into the waters of this thread.

My DH and I have >$3.5M invested assets.  I FIRE'd almost 4 months ago from a 26 year career in the power generation industry.  Loved the technical challenges and the team, hated the 24-7 stress of being connected to work.  DH works for the federal government and enjoys working.  He also has is able to work from home 2 days per week, and has a lot of flexibility in when he earns and takes time off.  I am enjoying spending more time with our very active sons and other family members as well as gardening and focusing on wellness.

To me, our story to make it to this thread has been fairly simple.  It's a combination of hard work, smart decisions and luck.  DH and I were married 18 years ago and from the beginning we have made good decisions with our money, putting away for retirement and investing in taxable accounts.  Our hard work (and luck) got us good paying jobs.  We have had some other luck in that I had a fantastic bonus structure while I was working.

Along the way, we probably wouldn't be mistaken for Mr. Money Mustache...I've never biked to work, we buy new (with cash) cars, and we purchase services we could do ourselves (ie house cleaning, oil changes and haircuts).  But I feel like we do work to make sure when we spend our money, we feel like we get value from it.  We love to use coupons, we over analyze before making large purchases, and we do not feel the need to keep up with the Joneses.

I want to echo what I have read a lot on this forum...the first million seems to take forever. Now with this net worth, the investment growth is at a rate where we haven't even felt it the affects of losing my income.

Loving life.

Great to have you here. As I read through your post, I was struck by some similarities to my own story. I currently work in a big tech company in AI while my wife works in the pharmaceutical industry. Both of us have been very well paid in our careers but we have always lived on one paycheck and not allowed lifestyle creep. Like you, I buy new cars for cash and hold on to them for twelve to fifteen years. I will also admit that we have used a cleaning service for a long time :-)

As it happens, I just gave notice last week and Thursday is my last day. However I'm not retiring completely - a friend who has a startup, persuaded me to join him in a sort of an advisory role. We'll see how that goes but I don't see myself doing that for more than a year at most. I've put myself down for the class of 2020 and I feel confident that I'll be able to FIRE then without any OMY temptations.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PowerStache on July 21, 2019, 07:36:43 PM

@2sk22  - Congratulations on getting to pursue the start up.  Whether we use our time to make an income or not, I enjoy having control over my time.  I am doing things I could get paid for like caring for my nephew, dog sitting, and helping a non profit.  But I like the freedom of doing those things because I WANT to do them.

I have enjoyed reading stories on this thread of those that have been RE for years and how their routines and lifestyles change.  I feel like some amount of introspection every once in awhile keeps me living my best life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: sonoranson on July 22, 2019, 12:10:42 PM

Greetings All,

I've been lurking the past few months and finally decided to get an account and post.  I've only just discovered fire the past few months and the depth of information that is available.  My wife and I 'graduated' Dave Ramsey about 3 years ago and have always been somewhat frugal but nothing I would consider hardcore.  She's in sales and I work in IT remotely.  Currently, we're at 2.33m which includes our home worth ~410k.  I'm 49 and she is 44.  I have 2 kids in high school with around 47k total in 529's which we don't contribute to anymore.  The issue i'm trying to address now is increasing the amount we're putting into a brokerage account at vanguard.  A great majority of our assets are in 401k/IRA/Roth which can't be touched for a while.  Last year's plan was for me to FIRE at 58.  My wife would continue to work until 58 and we'd live off her income in that 5 year stretch.  She enjoys her job so that is agreeable with her.  Me?  I'd be ok walking away.  FIRE has come into focus for me and I really question if I can go another 9 years.  My hope is to get enough into the brokerage account over the next year or two so I'm comfortable knowing the kids can get through college without loans.  We have been maxing out 401k for a while and started maxing out vanguard IRAs last year.  I hope to start putting 1k each week into the vanguard brokerage account starting next month.  We started together some 24 years ago on 28k salary and made it work.  We've been fortunate with a lot of hard work and luck to be in a much better position today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 22, 2019, 12:43:29 PM

Quote from: sonoranson on July 22, 2019, 12:10:42 PM

Greetings All,

I've been lurking the past few months and finally decided to get an account and post.  I've only just discovered fire the past few months and the depth of information that is available.  My wife and I 'graduated' Dave Ramsey about 3 years ago and have always been somewhat frugal but nothing I would consider hardcore.  She's in sales and I work in IT remotely.  Currently, we're at 2.33m which includes our home worth ~410k.  I'm 49 and she is 44.  I have 2 kids in high school with around 47k total in 529's which we don't contribute to anymore.  The issue i'm trying to address now is increasing the amount we're putting into a brokerage account at vanguard.  A great majority of our assets are in 401k/IRA/Roth which can't be touched for a while.  Last year's plan was for me to FIRE at 58.  My wife would continue to work until 58 and we'd live off her income in that 5 year stretch.  She enjoys her job so that is agreeable with her.  Me?  I'd be ok walking away.  FIRE has come into focus for me and I really question if I can go another 9 years.  My hope is to get enough into the brokerage account over the next year or two so I'm comfortable knowing the kids can get through college without loans.  We have been maxing out 401k for a while and started maxing out vanguard IRAs last year.  I hope to start putting 1k each week into the vanguard brokerage account starting next month.  We started together some 24 years ago on 28k salary and made it work.  We've been fortunate with a lot of hard work and luck to be in a much better position today.

Welcome aboard!.. You're in great shape financially.

you can get at your 401k/IRAs prior to 59.5 by using the SEPP 72(t) rule. This would give you a min 5 year flow of money free of penalty.

Personally I would also prefer stuffing the brokerage account too until you are ready to quit. The reason being is you can then live off of that after tax money and minimise your income/maximise your ACA subsidy if you choose to go that route for healthcare.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 22, 2019, 01:45:19 PM

Quote from: sonoranson on July 22, 2019, 12:10:42 PM

...
her.  Me?  I'd be ok walking away.  FIRE has come into focus for me and I really question if I can go another 9 years.  My hope is to get enough into the brokerage account over the next
...

Good to have you hear! As a fellow IT person, I have generally had good jobs in my career. At age 49, my plan was to continue to work as long as they would let me. However, things absolutely do get a bit harder after your mid 50s in this field.

Like @Exflyboy , I also think you are absolutely on the right track - you can definitely start putting more money into after-tax savings and investments. Hope your emergency funds are adequate as well (as per your own subjective criteria).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jeroly on July 22, 2019, 02:15:31 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 22, 2019, 12:43:29 PM

Quote from: sonoranson on July 22, 2019, 12:10:42 PM

Greetings All,

I've been lurking the past few months and finally decided to get an account and post.  I've only just discovered fire the past few months and the depth of information that is available.  My wife and I 'graduated' Dave Ramsey about 3 years ago and have always been somewhat frugal but nothing I would consider hardcore.  She's in sales and I work in IT remotely.  Currently, we're at 2.33m which includes our home worth ~410k.  I'm 49 and she is 44.  I have 2 kids in high school with around 47k total in 529's which we don't contribute to anymore.  The issue i'm trying to address now is increasing the amount we're putting into a brokerage account at vanguard.  A great majority of our assets are in 401k/IRA/Roth which can't be touched for a while.  Last year's plan was for me to FIRE at 58.  My wife would continue to work until 58 and we'd live off her income in that 5 year stretch.  She enjoys her job so that is agreeable with her.  Me?  I'd be ok walking away.  FIRE has come into focus for me and I really question if I can go another 9 years.  My hope is to get enough into the brokerage account over the next year or two so I'm comfortable knowing the kids can get through college without loans.  We have been maxing out 401k for a while and started maxing out vanguard IRAs last year.  I hope to start putting 1k each week into the vanguard brokerage account starting next month.  We started together some 24 years ago on 28k salary and made it work.  We've been fortunate with a lot of hard work and luck to be in a much better position today.

Welcome aboard!.. You're in great shape financially.

you can get at your 401k/IRAs prior to 59.5 by using the SEPP 72(t) rule. This would give you a min 5 year flow of money free of penalty.

Personally I would also prefer stuffing the brokerage account too until you are ready to quit. The reason being is you can then live off of that after tax money and minimise your income/maximise your ACA subsidy if you choose to go that route for healthcare.

You can also get at the $$$ in your last 401(k) without penalty once you're over 55.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 22, 2019, 02:42:21 PM

Quote from: jeroly on July 22, 2019, 02:15:31 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 22, 2019, 12:43:29 PM

Quote from: sonoranson on July 22, 2019, 12:10:42 PM

Greetings All,

I've been lurking the past few months and finally decided to get an account and post.  I've only just discovered fire the past few months and the depth of information that is available.  My wife and I 'graduated' Dave Ramsey about 3 years ago and have always been somewhat frugal but nothing I would consider hardcore.  She's in sales and I work in IT remotely.  Currently, we're at 2.33m which includes our home worth ~410k.  I'm 49 and she is 44.  I have 2 kids in high school with around 47k total in 529's which we don't contribute to anymore.  The issue i'm trying to address now is increasing the amount we're putting into a brokerage account at vanguard.  A great majority of our assets are in 401k/IRA/Roth which can't be touched for a while.  Last year's plan was for me to FIRE at 58.  My wife would continue to work until 58 and we'd live off her income in that 5 year stretch.  She enjoys her job so that is agreeable with her.  Me?  I'd be ok walking away.  FIRE has come into focus for me and I really question if I can go another 9 years.  My hope is to get enough into the brokerage account over the next year or two so I'm comfortable knowing the kids can get through college without loans.  We have been maxing out 401k for a while and started maxing out vanguard IRAs last year.  I hope to start putting 1k each week into the vanguard brokerage account starting next month.  We started together some 24 years ago on 28k salary and made it work.  We've been fortunate with a lot of hard work and luck to be in a much better position today.

Welcome aboard!.. You're in great shape financially.

you can get at your 401k/IRAs prior to 59.5 by using the SEPP 72(t) rule. This would give you a min 5 year flow of money free of penalty.

Personally I would also prefer stuffing the brokerage account too until you are ready to quit. The reason being is you can then live off of that after tax money and minimise your income/maximise your ACA subsidy if you choose to go that route for healthcare.

You can also get at the $$$ in your last 401(k) without penalty once you're over 55.

Be careful though, many 401k plans have pretty restrictive rules around the 55 rule. My last 401k place would only let you take the entire 401k balance as a single payment after 55.

The tax bill would be brutal!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 22, 2019, 05:02:09 PM

- The Big Snip -

Be careful though, many 401k plans have pretty restrictive rules around the 55 rule. My last 401k place would only let you take the entire 401k balance as a single payment after 55.

The tax bill would be brutal!
[/quote]

Aren't you allowed to roll some of it back into another 401K or maybe another retirement vehicle? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 22, 2019, 06:19:07 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 22, 2019, 05:02:09 PM

- The Big Snip -

Be careful though, many 401k plans have pretty restrictive rules around the 55 rule. My last 401k place would only let you take the entire 401k balance as a single payment after 55.

The tax bill would be brutal!

Aren't you allowed to roll some of it back into another 401K or maybe another retirement vehicle?
[/quote]

Not into a previous 401k.. as you would have left that company.

You can roll part of it into an IRA though.

The problem of course is that once in the IRA it is then stuck until 59.5. In this case the 401k 55 rule only works one time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 23, 2019, 04:09:58 AM

Welcome @sonoranson!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 23, 2019, 10:59:26 AM

Quote from: sonoranson on July 22, 2019, 12:10:42 PM

Greetings All,

I've been lurking the past few months and finally decided to get an account and post.  I've only just discovered fire the past few months and the depth of information that is available.  My wife and I 'graduated' Dave Ramsey about 3 years ago and have always been somewhat frugal but nothing I would consider hardcore.  She's in sales and I work in IT remotely.  Currently, we're at 2.33m which includes our home worth ~410k.  I'm 49 and she is 44.  I have 2 kids in high school with around 47k total in 529's which we don't contribute to anymore.  The issue i'm trying to address now is increasing the amount we're putting into a brokerage account at vanguard.  A great majority of our assets are in 401k/IRA/Roth which can't be touched for a while.  Last year's plan was for me to FIRE at 58.  My wife would continue to work until 58 and we'd live off her income in that 5 year stretch.  She enjoys her job so that is agreeable with her.  Me?  I'd be ok walking away.  FIRE has come into focus for me and I really question if I can go another 9 years.  My hope is to get enough into the brokerage account over the next year or two so I'm comfortable knowing the kids can get through college without loans.  We have been maxing out 401k for a while and started maxing out vanguard IRAs last year.  I hope to start putting 1k each week into the vanguard brokerage account starting next month.  We started together some 24 years ago on 28k salary and made it work.  We've been fortunate with a lot of hard work and luck to be in a much better position today.

Is the house paid off?  Do you have any thoughts about college with respect to FAFSA?  Putting money in to pay off the house is a great way to "hide" money from FAFSA.  Any thoughts on where college will be.....or what you're willing to pay?

I ask all this with one currently taking some summer classes, then finishing during the upcoming fall semester at private....usually $70k per year college and the other starting community college in the fall.  It's really the only reason I still work at all.  For me it's $2.5M with the house paid off long ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: sonoranson on July 23, 2019, 11:41:13 AM

House was paid off 3 years ago?  We put at 11kw solar array on the roof a few years ago and own it outright.  Most months my electric is <35 bucks in the Phoenix area.  No installment payments of any sort.  Kids will get steered towards in state or a school that's part of the Western US in state cooperative agreement.  NAU in Flagstaff offers a lumberjack scholarship.  If you get B's or better in all your high school core classes AND graduate with an unweighted gpa of 3.5 or higher, the tuition gets picked up by them.  I think ASU and AU may have similar programs but haven't looked into that yet.  Our plan right now is to stuff the brokerage account with as much as possible until we have to redirect to bankrolling college.  I have an incoming  junior and a freshman.  I figure at least the first year is covered for both with 529's.  Intent is to not touch the brokerage account but there will be plenty there in case we have no choice.  The oldest is 11th in her class of 275 and the youngest has been straight A's since 1st grade.  I've cautioned my wife that there are a ton of high schools in the state and they all have a top ten.  We'd be naive to assume our kids will get merit scholarships and not plan for the actuality of it not happening and being caught short.  I do believe they are going to have to come to the table and have part of it on their shoulders.  A true understanding that they have skin in the game.  I'm not sure what that looks like yet but we do want to make sure they don't just get to coast through 4 years.  That doesn't help them out at all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on July 24, 2019, 11:38:54 AM

I think I'll come hang out in this thread.  I'm guessing most of you here have been higher income earners, and while having a great savings rate, aren't living on rice and beans.   It feels more moderate than some other threads.

I believe we 'technically' qualify, if I include value of hubby's defined benefit pension.  Our investment accounts have been hovering just under the $2 million, but I calculate his DB pension to be worth the equivalent $500K-$600K based on expected payout.  Our retirement date is planned for mid next year when he's eligible for a reduced DB pension.  I'm struggling with OMY syndrome for a couple of reasons; fear of the unknown,  I'm part of an incentive program at work whereby if I leave mid year next year I walk away from a not insignificant amount of money, I enjoy my job (working from home is great), I can probably swing part-time if I can figure out how to not work full time hours and get paid part-time (having some work/life balance issues - again, partly because I enjoy the work)

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jengod on July 24, 2019, 03:56:58 PM

Welcome @bluebelle! I’m not sure we belong here either but I lurk just the same. We have $1.5ish in investment accounts and cash but the rest of our net worth is “only” a paid-off house.

Lots of different ways to be financially independent and/or retire early (or not)!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 24, 2019, 04:35:42 PM

Record highs for stock market AGAIN today.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/24/us-stock-futures-cautiously-lower-amid-further-us-china-meetings.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/24/us-stock-futures-cautiously-lower-amid-further-us-china-meetings.html)

"Welcome @bluebelle! I’m not sure we belong here but either but I lurk just the same."

Where would all these rich people be without the rest of us?

To be honest with these stock market rises, I'm running into this crowd.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 24, 2019, 05:20:55 PM

Boy, we're getting a big boost in membership this month.  Welcome @bluebelle , @sonoranson , @PowerStache , @2sk22 @jengod, and anyone else who joined, if I didn't scroll back far enough to see your post.   It's so nice to see this thread thrive. 

You'll all be proud of me:  I sent a buncha money over to Fidelity, stuck it in bonds, and resisted the urge (so far) to buy a condo in a major European city. (Such a low entry price point! Great returns even after maintenance and management fees!  A home base over the pond!!!)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 25, 2019, 03:32:39 AM

Welcome @bluebell ! Having a part time gig can be a good way to ease yourself into being Fire'd and take some of the worry out even if you dont have to worry. I myself have been Fire'd about 4.5 years and this year decided to take a few cash jobs but only as I feel like it and only what and when I want to do something. Some extra pocket money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 25, 2019, 12:51:44 PM

I quit my megacorp job and yesterday was my last day there. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not fully retired as I'll be working in a startup in the fall but I do get 6 weeks off. But still, this will be my longest break since I started working in in the early 90s!

When I was making the rounds to say goodbye, a lot of people wistfully told me that they wish they could quit too. I referred them to MMM and gave a little pitch for FIRE - think I got a few converts :-)

Went for a beer with the team to a small bar in the East Village (office is in the lower east side in Manhattan). Glad to be done with that chapter !

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 25, 2019, 02:03:32 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 25, 2019, 12:51:44 PM

I quit my megacorp job and yesterday was my last day there. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not fully retired as I'll be working in a startup in the fall but I do get 6 weeks off. But still, this will be my longest break since I started working in in the early 90s!

When I was making the rounds to say goodbye, a lot of people wistfully told me that they wish they could quit too. I referred them to MMM and gave a little pitch for FIRE - think I got a few converts :-)

Went for a beer with the team to a small bar in the East Village (office is in the lower east side in Manhattan). Glad to be done with that chapter !

Nice and congrats..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 25, 2019, 02:49:18 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 25, 2019, 02:03:32 PM

Nice and congrats..:)

Thanks! Looking at your journal, I just realized that we are almost exactly the same age. I wish I had discovered FIRE sooner and had planned for it a bit more more actively. To fair though, I was actually having fun in my job until about the middle of last year. And even with my haphazard planning, things worked out. Ah well, at least I can help my daughters to plan better :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 25, 2019, 07:06:36 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 25, 2019, 12:51:44 PM

I quit my megacorp job and yesterday was my last day there. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not fully retired as I'll be working in a startup in the fall but I do get 6 weeks off. But still, this will be my longest break since I started working in in the early 90s!

 Glad to be done with that chapter !

Very nice!  Thanks for sharing that with us... in spirit, we're whooping it up right alongside of you! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 25, 2019, 07:15:15 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 25, 2019, 02:49:18 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 25, 2019, 02:03:32 PM

Nice and congrats..:)

Thanks! Looking at your journal, I just realized that we are almost exactly the same age. I wish I had discovered FIRE sooner and had planned for it a bit more more actively. To fair though, I was actually having fun in my job until about the middle of last year. And even with my haphazard planning, things worked out. Ah well, at least I can help my daughters to plan better :-)

Oh don't worry, we are still young enough to get the WTF stares from people when we say we're retired.

The biggest problem is going to meetups when young Mustacians feel they need to offer you their chair and the like..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 25, 2019, 08:13:11 PM

I just heard on a WCI podcast today that there isn’t actually an age requirement for joining the AARP.
Maybe you should do that to really make people do a double take. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 25, 2019, 09:29:25 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 25, 2019, 08:13:11 PM

I just heard on a WCI podcast today that there isn’t actually an age requirement for joining the AARP.
Maybe you should do that to really make people do a double take. :)

I joined at 48.  Discounts definitely pay off.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 25, 2019, 09:56:35 PM

Yup we get our insurance through the Hartford via the AARP.. Best deal around.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 26, 2019, 08:36:00 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 25, 2019, 08:13:11 PM

I just heard on a WCI podcast today that there isn’t actually an age requirement for joining the AARP.
Maybe you should do that to really make people do a double take. :)

AARP started sending me fliers to join when I was in my 30's.  I ended up joining when looking at hotel discounts for a vacation we were taking.  That particular hotel offered AARP discounts but not AAA and the hotel points club discount didn't come close.  Membership for a year was easily paid with a single night discount.

Since that time, I've found no discounts AARP got me that I couldn't get with AAA or hotel clubs.   Dunkin Donuts no longer gives a free donut for the AARP card with a large coffee, so I let my membership lapse.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 26, 2019, 09:56:20 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 26, 2019, 08:36:00 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 25, 2019, 08:13:11 PM

I just heard on a WCI podcast today that there isn’t actually an age requirement for joining the AARP.
Maybe you should do that to really make people do a double take. :)

AARP started sending me fliers to join when I was in my 30's.  I ended up joining when looking at hotel discounts for a vacation we were taking.  That particular hotel offered AARP discounts but not AAA and the hotel points club discount didn't come close.  Membership for a year was easily paid with a single night discount.

Since that time, I've found no discounts AARP got me that I couldn't get with AAA or hotel clubs.   Dunkin Donuts no longer gives a free donut for the AARP card with a large coffee, so I let my membership lapse.

Probably better for your health, lol.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 26, 2019, 10:52:25 AM

Did you ever get any funny looks for pulling the card out?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on July 26, 2019, 08:16:59 PM

Well for the first time I crossed over the $1.8 million milestone in liquid assets.

That's exciting and fun to experience.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 26, 2019, 08:21:38 PM

Not a very Mustacian day for me.  I went and did it, I  bought a  new bicycle.  I just ordered a Trek Stache 7 mountain bike.  I got it on the 2019 clearance sale and saved about $500.  At nearly a 20% drop in price I bought it. I hope to in 2021, travel on this bike 2,700 miles and 185,000 feet of elevation climbing from the Canadian to Mexican border.  The offroad route is newly established and called the Wild West Route.  FIRE is coming!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 26, 2019, 08:24:03 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on July 26, 2019, 08:16:59 PM

Well for the first time I crossed over the $1.8 million milestone in liquid assets.

That's exciting and fun to experience.

The power of our assets here in the advanced class is mind blowing.  Congratulations!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on July 26, 2019, 08:29:19 PM

Thank you Bateux and I hope you enjoy your bicycle. You more than earned it. Please be careful and no more daredevil stunts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FiveSigmas on July 27, 2019, 02:45:03 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 26, 2019, 08:21:38 PM

Not a very Mustacian day for me.  I went and did it, I  bought a  new bicycle.  I just ordered a Trek Stache 7 mountain bike.  I got it on the 2019 clearance sale and saved about $500.  At nearly a 20% drop in price I bought it. I hope to in 2021, travel on this bike 2,700 miles and 185,000 feet of elevation climbing from the Canadian to Mexican border.  The offroad route is newly established and called the Wild West Route.  FIRE is coming!

I dunno, it has a certain mustachian element to it. Be honest, did the branding have any impact on your purchase decision? :-)

Anyway, the ride sounds terrific! Are you planning on riding solo or in a group?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 27, 2019, 03:22:58 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 26, 2019, 10:52:25 AM

Did you ever get any funny looks for pulling the card out?

Naaaah.  Think about servers at Dunkin'.  Most of them see anyone over 29 as being 90.

I don't eat donuts, but my son will.  Now, if they gave me a muffin, that would be different.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 27, 2019, 04:17:38 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 26, 2019, 08:21:38 PM

Not a very Mustacian day for me.  I went and did it, I  bought a  new bicycle.  I just ordered a Trek Stache 7 mountain bike.  I got it on the 2019 clearance sale and saved about $500.  At nearly a 20% drop in price I bought it. I hope to in 2021, travel on this bike 2,700 miles and 185,000 feet of elevation climbing from the Canadian to Mexican border.  The offroad route is newly established and called the Wild West Route.  FIRE is coming!

It WILL be an adventure.

I read this book a few years back about a very long bike ride.  Maybe you can tell us how your trip went.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/343994.Miles_from_Nowhere (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/343994.Miles_from_Nowhere)

That's what the money is for.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 27, 2019, 04:18:22 PM

Quote from: FiveSigmas on July 27, 2019, 02:45:03 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 26, 2019, 08:21:38 PM

Not a very Mustacian day for me.  I went and did it, I  bought a  new bicycle.  I just ordered a Trek Stache 7 mountain bike.  I got it on the 2019 clearance sale and saved about $500.  At nearly a 20% drop in price I bought it. I hope to in 2021, travel on this bike 2,700 miles and 185,000 feet of elevation climbing from the Canadian to Mexican border.  The offroad route is newly established and called the Wild West Route.  FIRE is coming!

I dunno, it has a certain mustachian element to it. Be honest, did the branding have any impact on your purchase decision? :-)

Anyway, the ride sounds terrific! Are you planning on riding solo or in a group?

This will be a group trip.  I'll be the least experienced one on the group.  That's why I'm getting the bike set up now so that I can start training.   I've been a backpacker a long time but bikepacking in a new world to me.  Ive done some short paved touring but not offroad.  My first endurance training will be a 100 mile backpacking trip to the Smokies in September.   That will help me lose some weight and get in better shape before adding a bike to my travels.  By October hopefully I can do a multiday offroad trip with the bike. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 27, 2019, 04:24:29 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 27, 2019, 04:17:38 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 26, 2019, 08:21:38 PM

Not a very Mustacian day for me.  I went and did it, I  bought a  new bicycle.  I just ordered a Trek Stache 7 mountain bike.  I got it on the 2019 clearance sale and saved about $500.  At nearly a 20% drop in price I bought it. I hope to in 2021, travel on this bike 2,700 miles and 185,000 feet of elevation climbing from the Canadian to Mexican border.  The offroad route is newly established and called the Wild West Route.  FIRE is coming!

It WILL be an adventure.

I read this book a few years back about a very long bike ride.  Maybe you can tell us how your trip went.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/343994.Miles_from_Nowhere (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/343994.Miles_from_Nowhere)

That's what the money is for.

I'll have to search for that book.  The money is certainly for this.  I haven't bought a bike in over a decade and I have thousands of miles on the ones I have.   Hopefully I'm making the right bike choice.  There are many capable bikes out there.  I.decided to.go with a front suspension hardtail bike versus a solid frame bike.  Being over 50 now having a bit of comfort seems inviting.  It will.make it a bit harder to rig and invite more mechanical things that could go wrong. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 28, 2019, 10:42:12 AM

The books's been around for a while.  Libraries may have copies.  I read it about the time I bought my last bike.  I won't give the date, but it has a Chrome Moly frame.  Aluminum frames were still new.  I am due a new bicycle.  Another good idea for when I pull the plug.  Maybe build one up from a used frame.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 28, 2019, 11:15:48 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 28, 2019, 10:42:12 AM

The books's been around for a while.  Libraries may have copies.  I read it about the time I bought my last bike.  I won't give the date, but it has a Chrome Moly frame.  Aluminum frames were still new.  I am due a new bicycle.  Another good idea for when I pull the plug.  Maybe build one up from a used frame.

I bought an Aluminum frame, but Cromoly is still in use and I highly considered one.  The Surly ECR is a steel offroad bike I almost bought.  It will take you anywhere in the world.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 31, 2019, 04:39:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 27, 2019, 04:18:22 PM

Quote from: FiveSigmas on July 27, 2019, 02:45:03 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 26, 2019, 08:21:38 PM

Not a very Mustacian day for me.  I went and did it, I  bought a  new bicycle.  I just ordered a Trek Stache 7 mountain bike.  I got it on the 2019 clearance sale and saved about $500.  At nearly a 20% drop in price I bought it. I hope to in 2021, travel on this bike 2,700 miles and 185,000 feet of elevation climbing from the Canadian to Mexican border.  The offroad route is newly established and called the Wild West Route.  FIRE is coming!

I dunno, it has a certain mustachian element to it. Be honest, did the branding have any impact on your purchase decision? :-)

Anyway, the ride sounds terrific! Are you planning on riding solo or in a group?

This will be a group trip.  I'll be the least experienced one on the group.  That's why I'm getting the bike set up now so that I can start training.   I've been a backpacker a long time but bikepacking in a new world to me.  Ive done some short paved touring but not offroad.  My first endurance training will be a 100 mile backpacking trip to the Smokies in September.   That will help me lose some weight and get in better shape before adding a bike to my travels.  By October hopefully I can do a multiday offroad trip with the bike.

on my bucket list is to do each summer a leg of the Appalachian trail before I get too damn old. Almost 55 now so going to start planning it for next spring.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 31, 2019, 07:39:42 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 31, 2019, 04:39:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 27, 2019, 04:18:22 PM

Quote from: FiveSigmas on July 27, 2019, 02:45:03 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 26, 2019, 08:21:38 PM

Not a very Mustacian day for me.  I went and did it, I  bought a  new bicycle.  I just ordered a Trek Stache 7 mountain bike.  I got it on the 2019 clearance sale and saved about $500.  At nearly a 20% drop in price I bought it. I hope to in 2021, travel on this bike 2,700 miles and 185,000 feet of elevation climbing from the Canadian to Mexican border.  The offroad route is newly established and called the Wild West Route.  FIRE is coming!

I dunno, it has a certain mustachian element to it. Be honest, did the branding have any impact on your purchase decision? :-)

Anyway, the ride sounds terrific! Are you planning on riding solo or in a group?

This will be a group trip.  I'll be the least experienced one on the group.  That's why I'm getting the bike set up now so that I can start training.   I've been a backpacker a long time but bikepacking in a new world to me.  Ive done some short paved touring but not offroad.  My first endurance training will be a 100 mile backpacking trip to the Smokies in September.   That will help me lose some weight and get in better shape before adding a bike to my travels.  By October hopefully I can do a multiday offroad trip with the bike.

on my bucket list is to do each summer a leg of the Appalachian trail before I get too damn old. Almost 55 now so going to start planning it for next spring.

I'm going to piece together the AT, but maybe I'll get to thruhike the PCT.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 01, 2019, 04:58:45 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 31, 2019, 07:39:42 PM

-SNIP-

I'm going to piece together the AT, but maybe I'll get to thruhike the PCT.

That was another book I read recently about this woman who hiked the Pacific Crest Trail most of it anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild:_From_Lost_to_Found_on_the_Pacific_Crest_Trail (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild:_From_Lost_to_Found_on_the_Pacific_Crest_Trail)

I can see you will enjoy this retirement thing.  You won't rot in a chair.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jeroly on August 01, 2019, 09:00:23 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 31, 2019, 04:39:58 AM

on my bucket list is to do each summer a leg of the Appalachian trail before I get too damn old. Almost 55 now so going to start planning it for next spring.

I'd be interested in doing 2-3 week segments over the next few springs or summers.  60yo FIREd M here, reasonably fit.  Maybe starting in GA and heading N in pieces.

Message me if interested in talking about a plan!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on August 01, 2019, 09:02:35 PM

Does that mean you'll be sleeping in a tent along the trail ?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 02, 2019, 12:04:34 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 01, 2019, 09:02:35 PM

Does that mean you'll be sleeping in a tent along the trail ?

Yep!  You coming with us? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 02, 2019, 01:59:42 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 01, 2019, 09:02:35 PM

Does that mean you'll be sleeping in a tent along the trail ?

Quote from: Bateaux on August 02, 2019, 12:04:34 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 01, 2019, 09:02:35 PM

Does that mean you'll be sleeping in a tent along the trail ?

Yep!  You coming with us? 

Quote from: jeroly on August 01, 2019, 09:00:23 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 31, 2019, 04:39:58 AM

on my bucket list is to do each summer a leg of the Appalachian trail before I get too damn old. Almost 55 now so going to start planning it for next spring.

I'd be interested in doing 2-3 week segments over the next few springs or summers.  60yo FIREd M here, reasonably fit.  Maybe starting in GA and heading N in pieces.

Message me if interested in talking about a plan!

The more the merrier. Will have to do some research/Homework. I was actually thinking about starting on the North end and working down but either way. I just want to get in the mountains sooner the better. Tent camping or I believe there are plenty of places you can get to stay in a night or two to grab a shower etc.. Again something to start looking into/Research.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on August 02, 2019, 01:15:14 PM

I might consider joining you for a day when I take my private helicopter over to your site.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 03, 2019, 01:05:38 PM

https://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/ (https://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/)

Five months of walking, eh?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 04, 2019, 03:48:32 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 03, 2019, 01:05:38 PM

https://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/ (https://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/)

Five months of walking, eh?

haha ...You in?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 04, 2019, 06:40:25 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 04, 2019, 03:48:32 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 03, 2019, 01:05:38 PM

https://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/ (https://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/)

Five months of walking, eh?

haha ...You in?

Some day I doubt next year.  I'd like to do pieces of it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 04, 2019, 07:00:00 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 04, 2019, 06:40:25 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 04, 2019, 03:48:32 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 03, 2019, 01:05:38 PM

https://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/ (https://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/)

Five months of walking, eh?

haha ...You in?

Some day I doubt next year.  I'd like to do pieces of it.

Me too. Mostly the flat parts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 04, 2019, 04:15:38 PM

PCT friends.  I hope to hike it as well some day.  May come begging a shower.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on August 04, 2019, 08:05:46 PM

The triple crown is on our bucket list. Starting with The Green Tunnel in 2022 :)

Whoops, I don't belong in this thread.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 04, 2019, 10:48:05 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on August 04, 2019, 08:05:46 PM

The triple crown is on our bucket list. Starting with The Green Tunnel in 2022 :)

Whoops, I don't belong in this thread.

Hang out a while, you might like it.  We'll write you a permit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 04, 2019, 11:37:02 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 04, 2019, 10:48:05 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on August 04, 2019, 08:05:46 PM

The triple crown is on our bucket list. Starting with The Green Tunnel in 2022 :)

Whoops, I don't belong in this thread.

Hang out a while, you might like it.  We'll write you a permit.

2b1s, I dig that you read aspirationally.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 05, 2019, 04:02:33 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 04, 2019, 11:37:02 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 04, 2019, 10:48:05 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on August 04, 2019, 08:05:46 PM

The triple crown is on our bucket list. Starting with The Green Tunnel in 2022 :)

Whoops, I don't belong in this thread.

Hang out a while, you might like it.  We'll write you a permit.

2b1s, I dig that you read aspirationally.

Why not welcome here? you have to much or not enough? lol make it your goal category and ride along! always welcome

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 05, 2019, 09:38:45 AM

well after the last few days of market decline, I might not belong here!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on August 05, 2019, 11:19:10 AM

If we see a 2008 style collapse, most of you won't be here anymore.

@soccerluvof4, not nearly enough, and hope to never end up here. If I do, it means I gave up way too many years of my life working for money that I won't need.

I'll just stick around as an honorary member. This thread is really fun to read when we have any real correction in the market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 05, 2019, 01:13:22 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on August 05, 2019, 11:19:10 AM

If we see a 2008 style collapse, most of you won't be here anymore.

@soccerluvof4, not nearly enough, and hope to never end up here. If I do, it means I gave up way too many years of my life working for money that I won't need.

I'll just stick around as an honorary member. This thread is really fun to read when we have any real correction in the market.

Get ready!  I'll be crying a river soon.  I was down $50K this morning.  Could be hundreds of thousands by the end of the week.  My goal is 2.5M so it's OMY, OMY till then.  Off to work I go.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 05, 2019, 02:15:00 PM

Big Dip today.

I still try to figure this stuff out.

They say the dip is due to the Chinese devaluing their currency.  Why did they do this?

Our president has been doing the tariff thing which means stuff from China costs more and so they sell less.

Wall Street didn't like these tariffs from the president.  I guess they wanted the Chinese to be able to sell stuff here and money could be made from trading with the Chinese.  The tariffs mean they would sell less here.

OK - So the Chinese basically just lowered the price of their stuff by devaluing their currency.  This should offset some of the tariffs.  The Chinese will increase the volume of the stuff they sell.

I would think Wall Street would like this.  A good part of the money lost due to the tariffs would come back.  More Chinese junk could once again be sold here.

It also means that US goods will cost more in China, but other than soybeans, I haven't heard that the US sells a lot to China.  Besides, their devalued currency will most likely raise the cost of soybeans from US, Brazil or anywhere.

You guys are smart.  This stock market thing just gave my racing car a flat tire.  Take a pit stop and tell me how my race is off course.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: FIRE@50 on August 05, 2019, 02:37:42 PM

China buys almost nothing from the US, so retaliatory tariffs are not an option. Instead, they devalue their currency which makes their products cheaper for people in the US to buy, therefore offsetting the tariffs.

Don't worry though, because trade wars are good and easy to win.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 05, 2019, 06:29:59 PM

Good time to plan a vacation to China.. as long as you don't get thrown into a Chinese jail for littering or something..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on August 05, 2019, 06:55:28 PM

The earnings that will be reported in coming weeks will not help. We are overdue for a big correction. Trumps Twitter account will not help.

Could very easily retest December 2018 lows, which means falling another 20% at least.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 05, 2019, 11:52:43 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on August 05, 2019, 06:55:28 PM

The earnings that will be reported in coming weeks will not help. We are overdue for a big correction. Trumps Twitter account will not help.

Could very easily retest December 2018 lows, which means falling another 20% at least.

Cool.. I feel better now..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 06, 2019, 12:02:50 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 05, 2019, 06:29:59 PM

Good time to plan a vacation to China.. as long as you don't get thrown into a Chinese jail for littering or something..:)

Isn't that Singapore?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 06, 2019, 01:58:57 AM

Double this dip do some adding. Down nearly 100k in a week. Back below the 3M line. Oh well got a house to flip and some cash stuff working on

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 06, 2019, 02:04:12 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on August 05, 2019, 06:55:28 PM

The earnings that will be reported in coming weeks will not help. We are overdue for a big correction. Trumps Twitter account will not help.

Could very easily retest December 2018 lows, which means falling another 20% at least.

And that would not be a bad thing but is it even for real. Every time China tariffs are mentioned the market drops hard BUT traders are making a killing because as soon as the Whitehouse says were making progress its bounced right back. In either case a correction would be welcome and probably needed. Who knows

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 06, 2019, 02:49:14 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 06, 2019, 02:04:12 AM

And that would not be a bad thing but is it even for real. Every time China tariffs are mentioned the market drops hard BUT traders are making a killing because as soon as the Whitehouse says were making progress its bounced right back. In either case a correction would be welcome and probably needed. Who knows

I'm about the least conspiracy theory minded person but even I have to ask "Cui bono?". It's a rigged game for sure but it has served me well over the years. Over the very long term, it still works (25 years in my case) - I just took a look at my S&P 500 index fund and its still showing a 93% gain, even after yesterday's drop.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 06, 2019, 03:31:17 AM

Still in the club for now.   Took a 90k whooping. If another round hits, I'll be kicked back to the lower thread.  I don't wanna, it's creepy in there with those, less than multimillionaires.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 06, 2019, 08:41:35 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 06, 2019, 03:31:17 AM

Still in the club for now.   Took a 90k whooping. If another round hits, I'll be kicked back to the lower thread.  I don't wanna, it's creepy in there with those, less than multimillionaires.

I know, who wants to hang out with those "little people".... Ok this of course is meant as a joke but I think I just creeped myself out!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 06, 2019, 08:57:35 AM

Down $91k or 3.8% We can handle three more days like that before I have to leave the club.
Hopefully that won't happen. I feel like fall and 2020 could be a rough ride. I have decided that I will not OMY because of it. I might work harder at finding some part time or seasonal work though. I've decided that my desire to be at home with the kids is greater than my fear of having to work longer later.

You know when this happened in 2008, we had just had our first child. I don't think there was MMM, or I wasn't aware of it. And I didn't worry about our finances at all. I know our investments went from about $500k to $300k. And then I just stopped looking it. We weren't making much money. We were trying to advance in our careers. We had a new baby and bought our first home. I guess I just figured that they were just paper losses that didn't matter. It's a little harder this time around as I'm planning to FIRE in May. But I'm sticking to the plan!!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: RWD on August 06, 2019, 09:05:21 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 06, 2019, 08:41:35 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 06, 2019, 03:31:17 AM

Still in the club for now.   Took a 90k whooping. If another round hits, I'll be kicked back to the lower thread.  I don't wanna, it's creepy in there with those, less than multimillionaires.

I know, who wants to hang out with those "little people".... Ok this of course is meant as a joke but I think I just creeped myself out!

We're always lurking.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 06, 2019, 01:37:17 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 06, 2019, 08:41:35 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 06, 2019, 03:31:17 AM

Still in the club for now.   Took a 90k whooping. If another round hits, I'll be kicked back to the lower thread.  I don't wanna, it's creepy in there with those, less than multimillionaires.

I know, who wants to hang out with those "little people".... Ok this of course is meant as a joke but I think I just creeped myself out!

Gotta make light of it sometimes.   It's like watching a Tesla, that could have been yours drive away.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 07, 2019, 02:41:12 AM

Well we got our Dead Cat bounce I was looking for NOW does it climb back up or drop some more . Nobody knows. I am locked pretty solid in this club unless we had about a 30% loss I would imagine but stings the same.

On another note anyone feel like when the market tanks the numbers/nw drops alot faster than they come back. idk if its what I am in or what or if it just feels that way. But feels alot like losing weight in reverse. Easy to gain but takes alot more energy to lose. I lost close to 6 figures over the week and on the dead cat bounce I only gained 6k back. Although I did have some pretty high auto pay paid out so probably closer to 7500 but still. Lets see how the week ends! I will take what it gives or takes either way. Have some cash I would like to put to work but need more of a pull back otherwise happy to hang on to it as well. Guess my way of versatility!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on August 07, 2019, 02:57:52 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 07, 2019, 02:41:12 AM

Well we got our Dead Cat bounce I was looking for NOW does it climb back up or drop some more . Nobody knows. I am locked pretty solid in this club unless we had about a 30% loss I would imagine but stings the same.

On another note anyone feel like when the market tanks the numbers/nw drops alot faster than they come back. idk if its what I am in or what or if it just feels that way. But feels alot like losing weight in reverse. Easy to gain but takes alot more energy to lose. I lost close to 6 figures over the week and on the dead cat bounce I only gained 6k back. Although I did have some pretty high auto pay paid out so probably closer to 7500 but still. Lets see how the week ends! I will take what it gives or takes either way. Have some cash I would like to put to work but need more of a pull back otherwise happy to hang on to it as well. Guess my way of versatility!

Yes, this is how math works.

If you have $1m invested, and a 50% drop happens, you now have $500k. So you need a 100% gain to recover.

A 33.33% drop requires a 50% gain to recover, and so forth. The bigger the drop, the more difficult recovery. Think about an 80% drop. Would leave you with $200k and require a subsequent 400% gain to recover.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 07, 2019, 03:11:38 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on August 07, 2019, 02:57:52 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 07, 2019, 02:41:12 AM

Well we got our Dead Cat bounce I was looking for NOW does it climb back up or drop some more . Nobody knows. I am locked pretty solid in this club unless we had about a 30% loss I would imagine but stings the same.

On another note anyone feel like when the market tanks the numbers/nw drops alot faster than they come back. idk if its what I am in or what or if it just feels that way. But feels alot like losing weight in reverse. Easy to gain but takes alot more energy to lose. I lost close to 6 figures over the week and on the dead cat bounce I only gained 6k back. Although I did have some pretty high auto pay paid out so probably closer to 7500 but still. Lets see how the week ends! I will take what it gives or takes either way. Have some cash I would like to put to work but need more of a pull back otherwise happy to hang on to it as well. Guess my way of versatility!

Yes, this is how math works.

If you have $1m invested, and a 50% drop happens, you now have $500k. So you need a 100% gain to recover.

A 33.33% drop requires a 50% gain to recover, and so forth. The bigger the drop, the more difficult recovery. Think about an 80% drop. Would leave you with $200k and require a subsequent 400% gain to recover.

The math never lies does it! lol. haha

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 07, 2019, 04:59:18 AM

You can't make this stuff up.  Sometimes, I think that they do.  Look at the look of fear in the trader's eyes.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/dow-jones-industrial-average-forecast-51565117413 (https://www.barrons.com/articles/dow-jones-industrial-average-forecast-51565117413)

Then they quote some guys with a name like Fund Rat.

Here's a good sentence:

"Finally, equity sentiment has deteriorated dramatically in the U.S. and globally, and has started to resemble what it looked like ”on the eve of the 2008 Lehman Brothers collapse,”"

It's like - Hey guys smell that?  Yeh! Smoke.  It could be a forest fire, you know.  It might be time to get out of the woods.

These brokers who posed for the picture make money with the selling as it goes down and smile as they drive to the bank.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 07, 2019, 10:37:38 AM

Lehman on the eve of 2008... Yup, maybe, maybe not....

Then I have to say to myself warm and fuzzy things like.. "This too shall pass".. Like the 2008 meltdown did and every meltdown before it!

Oh and then fact we made most of our money by investing almost 100% into stock index funds during 2008.. Heck most of us here will still have a million dollars even if there was a 2008 style collapse!

Its doesn't feel god but we'll be OK..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on August 07, 2019, 11:13:42 AM

.....and just for fun, I sold bonds to buy stocks in my IRA.  A little rebalance to take advantage of the moves of the week.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on August 07, 2019, 11:42:01 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 07, 2019, 04:59:18 AM

"Finally, equity sentiment has deteriorated dramatically in the U.S. and globally, and has started to resemble what it looked like ”on the eve of the 2008 Lehman Brothers collapse,”"

This is why I don’t read financial news ... there’s rarely any substance to it. The eve of the lehman brothers collapse had multiple banks on the verge of bankruptcy. The system was unwinding leverage at break neck speed and there were serious threats to our economic structure. I’m not saying that wont happen again but we are no where near that right now. Its just alarmist bs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 07, 2019, 11:55:37 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 07, 2019, 10:37:38 AM

Lehman on the eve of 2008... Yup, maybe, maybe not....

Then I have to say to myself warm and fuzzy things like.. "This too shall pass".. Like the 2008 meltdown did and every meltdown before it!

Oh and then fact we made most of our money by investing almost 100% into stock index funds during 2008.. Heck most of us here will still have a million dollars even if there was a 2008 style collapse!

Its doesn't feel god but we'll be OK..:)

You'll certainly be OK, but sometimes it takes a while for things to pass.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical- (https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-)

What happened in 1965 or thereabouts to make a low stock market?  You would think it would have rebounded after the US went to the moon as this shows real progress.  Per the chart it wasn't until 1995 that it rebounded.  That's a generation.

It does look like gambling.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 07, 2019, 02:06:27 PM

Does that chart include dividends?.. I couldn't see where if they were included or not.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 07, 2019, 02:55:30 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 07, 2019, 02:06:27 PM

Does that chart include dividends?.. I couldn't see where if they were included or not.

Quite sure it wouldn't. 

These are different times.  Back then they didn't have all the 401 K money rolling into their greedy little hands to be feasted upon by their beady  Wall Street eyes.  There is really no where else for the 401 K money to go unless laws are changed.  So, I think that is a great dampening effect upon a plunge.

Looks like it went down a whisker today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on August 07, 2019, 08:00:59 PM

The stock market is going crazy - the tariffs represent a very tiny hit to the economy, nothing to justify a 6% hit to stocks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 07, 2019, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 07, 2019, 08:00:59 PM

The stock market is going crazy - the tariffs represent a very tiny hit to the economy, nothing to justify a 6% hit to stocks.

No but stocks are richly valued and the trade war might spark a currency war around the globe.

Note that central banks around the world cut interest rates yesterday.. and rates are already at a very low level.

This reaction is nervousness over how bad things might get.

Interesting though how the buyers stepped in when the Dow was down about 600 points today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 08, 2019, 03:04:26 AM

Quote from: carstenjames on August 07, 2019, 11:42:01 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 07, 2019, 04:59:18 AM

"Finally, equity sentiment has deteriorated dramatically in the U.S. and globally, and has started to resemble what it looked like ”on the eve of the 2008 Lehman Brothers collapse,”"

This is why I don’t read financial news ... there’s rarely any substance to it. The eve of the lehman brothers collapse had multiple banks on the verge of bankruptcy. The system was unwinding leverage at break neck speed and there were serious threats to our economic structure. I’m not saying that wont happen again but we are no where near that right now. Its just alarmist bs.

I agree exactly where nowhere near that though I still read the garbage but not with any conviction to it. When the market crashes it will be for different reasons and while we dont know what will cause it there is still alot of liquidity out there and economy is doing just fine. My guess and its just that is it will be more political than anything. We got our small dead cat bounce , yesterday was kinda a push so today should be telling.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 08, 2019, 05:17:01 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 08, 2019, 03:04:26 AM

- SNIP -

I agree exactly where nowhere near that though I still read the garbage but not with any conviction to it. When the market crashes it will be for different reasons and while we dont know what will cause it there is still alot of liquidity out there and economy is doing just fine. My guess and its just that is it will be more political than anything. We got our small dead cat bounce , yesterday was kinda a push so today should be telling.

After the crash there will be smart people that will tell us what happened, like too many car bad car loans or just irrational exuberance.  There will be a few smart ones that come out and say, "I told you so," and point to some crap written in one of the financial magazines 6 months ago.

This stuff never makes since.  Seems like they would be ape-shit happy for lowered interest rates.  It means cheaper money for people and is true trickle down economics.  People can afford to purchase boats, cars, second houses with low interest rates.  This stuff will give jobs and so help businesses.  More sales mean more money to be made and stock prices should either remain solvent or increase.

Once I pull the plug, I'm going to withdraw my 4 percent or less per annum and ignore this stuff.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 08, 2019, 06:12:12 AM

The problem is that people want a narrative that explains all the weird things that happen in the global markets. The truth is that there isn't any explanatory narrative. Markets have become so complex with so much automatic trading that its very hard to come up with any kind of a post hoc explanation.

There was a mini crash a few years ago and even after much investigation, they still don't know what really caused it. See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Flash_Crash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Flash_Crash)

However, financial journalists feel compelled to fill in the gaps somehow and so come up with garbage phrases like "...the markets were spooked this afternoon.."

Roger Schank, the famous cognitive scientist says that the need for a narrative is innate in humans:

"We need to tell someone else a story that describes our experiences because the process of creating the story also creates the memory structure that will contain the gist of the story for the rest of our lives. Talking is remembering."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 08, 2019, 05:18:03 PM

So for stock market stuff you just can't say Sh*t Happens.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 09, 2019, 02:19:32 AM

Amen!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: StackOfCoins.com (Jay) on August 10, 2019, 08:36:51 PM

Inspiring thread!  Got busy with life and it's been too long since I've checked this forum.  Here's my update:

August 2015: $1.0
April 2018: $2.0
July 2019: $2.8

Obviously past performance is no guarantee of future results.  I suspect the markets might be volatile for some period of time.

Keep on keeping on!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 11, 2019, 01:00:42 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 18, 2019, 12:23:33 AM

Net worth as of:

EOY 2017: $2,523,000.
EOY 2018: $2,553,000.   
Current   : $2,625,000.

Circa $2,700,000.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 11, 2019, 07:24:38 AM

Almost makes me wish I was still working.. Almost..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 11, 2019, 09:02:29 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 11, 2019, 07:24:38 AM

Almost makes me wish I was still working.. Almost..;)

Best part of it is that I'm not! :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 11, 2019, 11:16:25 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 11, 2019, 09:02:29 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 11, 2019, 07:24:38 AM

Almost makes me wish I was still working.. Almost..;)

Best part of it is that I'm not! :)

Even better..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 11, 2019, 05:41:51 PM

I rolled over my megacorp 401k to an IRA at Fidelity on Friday. I've been investing post-tax at Fidelity for many years so I want to keep things centralized. I've been running with a 60/40 (stock/bond) split  for many years so I decided to continue in that vein. After some dithering, I selected a bunch of index funds, all with very low expense ratios and submitted the buy orders a few minutes ago.

I still have three weeks of vacation left before I join the startup in Brooklyn (they have a water dispenser with 6 optional flavor shots :-). This is the longest break I have taken from work in 28 years and it has truly worked wonders for me. I have been digging through academic papers at fast clip and feeling happier by the day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on August 13, 2019, 06:37:55 AM

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 13, 2019, 09:08:47 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 13, 2019, 06:37:55 AM

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

Danm!.. Its says I'm not rich!...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 13, 2019, 10:22:55 AM

"Yes, you might be rich." Thanks, MMM.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 13, 2019, 11:37:45 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 13, 2019, 09:08:47 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 13, 2019, 06:37:55 AM

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

Danm!.. Its says I'm not rich!...:)

I think we should round up the pitch forks and torches and come after you!  Or maybe have our servants do it for us

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 13, 2019, 12:15:38 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 13, 2019, 11:37:45 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 13, 2019, 09:08:47 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 13, 2019, 06:37:55 AM

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

Danm!.. Its says I'm not rich!...:)

I think we should round up the pitch forks and torches and come after you!  Or maybe have our servants do it for us

I should go back to work.. If I kept working I would probably be "rich" right now..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 13, 2019, 04:04:39 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 13, 2019, 12:15:38 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 13, 2019, 11:37:45 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 13, 2019, 09:08:47 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 13, 2019, 06:37:55 AM

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

Danm!.. Its says I'm not rich!...:)

I think we should round up the pitch forks and torches and come after you!  Or maybe have our servants do it for us

I should go back to work.. If I kept working I would probably be "rich" right now..:)

Frank, did you move the marker over far enough? For this purpose, I'm sure it's okay to include home equity. Sheesh...not rich my ass.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 13, 2019, 05:18:01 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 18, 2019, 11:59:33 AM

Quote from: lhamo on July 18, 2019, 11:03:52 AM

For a variety of reasons, I am seriously contemplating shifting to a rising equity glidepath, as discussed by Kitces in this article:

https://www.kitces.com/blog/should-equity-exposure-decrease-in-retirement-or-is-a-rising-equity-glidepath-actually-better/

Basically what this seems to do is ensure that your initial stash is not hit by SORR early on in your FIRE journey.  You may lose out on some returns early on if the markets continue to rise, but you also mitigate your risk substantially.

Wondering if anyone else is using this strategy.

That has been my plan up until a week ago when I got the Living Off Your Money book by this guy McClung. It is a beast of a textbook with massive amounts of simulations and data to back up his recommendations.

In a nutshell he goes through a bunch of asset allocation strategies as well as drawdown strategies and while the reverse equities glidepath is decent (better than annual rebalancing of a static AA), it isn’t as good as the best strategies he recommends.

I’m only halfway through the book and find it immensely valuable. I’d love a virtual book club if anyone else is interested and wants to toss ideas around with me.

I just got this book and I've started reading it. I've only read the first couple of chapters so far but I'm already liking this book. I love how precisely he presents the ontology of the domain. This book is definitely going to be my bedtime reading for a while!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 13, 2019, 05:24:33 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 13, 2019, 04:04:39 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 13, 2019, 12:15:38 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 13, 2019, 11:37:45 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 13, 2019, 09:08:47 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 13, 2019, 06:37:55 AM

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

Danm!.. Its says I'm not rich!...:)

I think we should round up the pitch forks and torches and come after you!  Or maybe have our servants do it for us

I should go back to work.. If I kept working I would probably be "rich" right now..:)

Frank, did you move the marker over far enough? For this purpose, I'm sure it's okay to include home equity. Sheesh...not rich my ass.

Says I'm just "comfortable".

Rich is the top 1% right?...;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 13, 2019, 05:25:22 PM

Love this overview diagram

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on August 13, 2019, 07:55:52 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 13, 2019, 05:18:01 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on July 18, 2019, 11:59:33 AM

Quote from: lhamo on July 18, 2019, 11:03:52 AM

For a variety of reasons, I am seriously contemplating shifting to a rising equity glidepath, as discussed by Kitces in this article:

https://www.kitces.com/blog/should-equity-exposure-decrease-in-retirement-or-is-a-rising-equity-glidepath-actually-better/

Basically what this seems to do is ensure that your initial stash is not hit by SORR early on in your FIRE journey.  You may lose out on some returns early on if the markets continue to rise, but you also mitigate your risk substantially.

Wondering if anyone else is using this strategy.

That has been my plan up until a week ago when I got the Living Off Your Money book by this guy McClung. It is a beast of a textbook with massive amounts of simulations and data to back up his recommendations.

In a nutshell he goes through a bunch of asset allocation strategies as well as drawdown strategies and while the reverse equities glidepath is decent (better than annual rebalancing of a static AA), it isn’t as good as the best strategies he recommends.

I’m only halfway through the book and find it immensely valuable. I’d love a virtual book club if anyone else is interested and wants to toss ideas around with me.

I just got this book and I've started reading it. I've only read the first couple of chapters so far but I'm already liking this book. I love how precisely he presents the ontology of the domain. This book is definitely going to be my bedtime reading for a while!

Let’s compare notes as you go along. I made it about half way through and then lost steam due to sleeping poorly and work exploding and now I added a brand-new baby to the mix. So the will is there but the way may be missing for a bit longer. It definitely takes some quality brain space for processing but I feel this is the most meaningful book for impact in my life that I’ve picked up in a while.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on August 13, 2019, 07:57:08 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 13, 2019, 05:25:22 PM

Love this overview diagram

I like spelling out the difference between known and speculative risks, and how to meaningfully deal with each. I feel humans do a bad job of risk assessment and mitigation overall, and the topic of safe withdrawal rates raises fears and speculative risk discussions quite often.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 13, 2019, 10:38:15 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 13, 2019, 06:37:55 AM

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

95 percentile.   Says I'm rich, I'm not rich yet.  I'm well on the way, just not quite yet.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on August 14, 2019, 05:19:09 PM

Awfully quiet in here today, y'all. Can we commiserate on how many months of living expenses everyone lost this week?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 14, 2019, 05:23:01 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on August 14, 2019, 05:19:09 PM

Awfully quiet in here today, y'all. Can we commiserate on how many months of living expenses everyone lost this week?

Wha-wha-what? "We" lost money this week? The stock market is down? Huh. Too busy living a kick-ass life to notice.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on August 14, 2019, 05:58:54 PM

Bad government policies = bad stock market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: desk_jockey on August 14, 2019, 07:45:28 PM

Dropping out of this thread for a while.  I'll be back eventually.  Will see some of you in the thread below in the meantime.  All the best. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 15, 2019, 05:02:56 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 13, 2019, 10:38:15 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 13, 2019, 06:37:55 AM

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

95 percentile.   Says I'm rich, I'm not rich yet.  I'm well on the way, just not quite yet.
[/quote




Interesting. It really depends on what you click you think is rich. If i put having wealth of top 5% I am not. If I click having the money of the top 10% I am. But I dont consider myself rich anyhow. By todays standards I would say 10M and more would be "rich" and maybe even more. I was also surprise how big the numbers dropped at the top.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 15, 2019, 06:37:08 AM

I'm not looking. I'm just going to keep working my plan of 9mo months to stash some cash and then I'm out. And if things are still rough then I'M REALLY NOT GOING TO LOOK BEFORE I QUIT.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on August 15, 2019, 09:44:12 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 13, 2019, 06:37:55 AM

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

At first that wasn't saying I was even close to rich.  Then I realized I needed to add in my house but I was still far away.  Then I saw it was for a household, so I added in my GF's numbers and got closer.  Then I figured I should try to add in both our pensions and my household is now on the verge of rich.  Dayum.

I don't feel even close to rich, then I remembered the last two weeks.  I was visiting relatives back home in the MCOL area and there was no way I was going to talk about our finances with anybody.  I knew there was no way I could talk about my finances without coming across as bragging big time.  Maybe that's when you should call yourself rich - when you are afraid to tell anyone how much you have put together.    They know my finances are ok, but just a vague idea.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 15, 2019, 09:53:30 AM

Quote from: desk_jockey on August 14, 2019, 07:45:28 PM

Dropping out of this thread for a while.  I'll be back eventually.  Will see some of you in the thread below in the meantime.  All the best.

Aw, don't go. I think iit's important to realize the stock market always ebbs and flows. You may have dipped below the line, but even if you do nothing, you will be over it again soon. Maybe especially if you do nothing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 15, 2019, 05:04:41 PM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on August 15, 2019, 09:44:12 AM

coming across as bragging big time.  Maybe that's when you should call yourself rich - when you are afraid to tell anyone how much you have put together.    They know my finances are ok, but just a vague idea.

I really like this definition of "rich"! I also don't dare tell anyone in my family (other than my wife of course) what our net worth is. I think my mother (who is a very sharp observer) suspects its fairly high but has never asked me directly - thankfully, my parents are pretty well off too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 15, 2019, 06:38:43 PM

I'll happily tell my folks how much we have. They are not wealthy but would be pleased for me and would never ask for help even if they needed it.

DW's family?.. No way.. The hand would come out so fast it would be blinding!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: desk_jockey on August 15, 2019, 09:46:15 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 15, 2019, 09:53:30 AM

Quote from: desk_jockey on August 14, 2019, 07:45:28 PM

Dropping out of this thread for a while.  I'll be back eventually.  Will see some of you in the thread below in the meantime.  All the best.

Aw, don't go. I think iit's important to realize the stock market always ebbs and flows. You may have dipped below the line, but even if you do nothing, you will be over it again soon. Maybe especially if you do nothing.

I'm not going far, just down to the $1M-$2M race.  Not planning to do anything brash, my entire reaction was limited to a few quick swear words and two posts on this forum.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 16, 2019, 12:16:19 PM

Quote from: desk_jockey on August 15, 2019, 09:46:15 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 15, 2019, 09:53:30 AM

Quote from: desk_jockey on August 14, 2019, 07:45:28 PM

Dropping out of this thread for a while.  I'll be back eventually.  Will see some of you in the thread below in the meantime.  All the best.

Aw, don't go. I think iit's important to realize the stock market always ebbs and flows. You may have dipped below the line, but even if you do nothing, you will be over it again soon. Maybe especially if you do nothing.

I'm not going far, just down to the $1M-$2M race.  Not planning to do anything brash, my entire reaction was limited to a few quick swear words and two posts on this forum.

[/i]

Have you read our posts? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: desk_jockey on August 18, 2019, 04:46:49 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 16, 2019, 12:16:19 PM

Have you read our posts?

Yes, more that a few. I don't post much but I've been on the forums for a while.  Responding to Dicey's concerns, I confirm I'm doing nothing. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 18, 2019, 07:24:00 PM

Quote from: desk_jockey on August 18, 2019, 04:46:49 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 16, 2019, 12:16:19 PM

Have you read our posts?

Yes, more that a few. I don't post much but I've been on the forums for a while.  Responding to Dicey's concerns, I confirm I'm doing nothing.

We want ya to stick around.  Aspiring to belong to the 2 to 3 shoukd be good enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 19, 2019, 05:06:00 AM

Will you guys kick someone out if they go beyond three?  Or do these folks get to look back at you as just folks left back along the long trail?  It does say beyond.

You know - I'd like to get to the great beyond some day. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 19, 2019, 07:05:55 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 19, 2019, 05:06:00 AM

Will you guys kick someone out if they go beyond three?  Or do these folks get to look back at you as just folks left back along the long trail?  It does say beyond.

You know - I'd like to get to the great beyond some day.

Was already discussed way back here (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-from-$2m-to-$3m/msg1874783/#msg1874783).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 19, 2019, 03:02:14 PM

Quite positive too - I do have a chance to pass through to the great beyond.  If a man broke 25 years ago can do it, why not?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 19, 2019, 04:41:51 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 19, 2019, 07:05:55 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 19, 2019, 05:06:00 AM

Will you guys kick someone out if they go beyond three?  Or do these folks get to look back at you as just folks left back along the long trail?  It does say beyond.

You know - I'd like to get to the great beyond some day.

Was already discussed way back here (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-from-$2m-to-$3m/msg1874783/#msg1874783).

Looking at these older postings, I am beginning to realize that, in my household, we have Boglehead numbers but are mostly Mustachian in our attitudes.

In fact, looking at these "Interviews with millionaires" (https://esimoney.com/category/millionaires/ (https://esimoney.com/category/millionaires/)) only a few have a higher NW than what I calculated recently. We just don't feel it however - here in the New Jersey suburbs of New York, it feels as if everyone seems to be at the same level as us or perhaps much higher.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 19, 2019, 06:18:42 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 19, 2019, 04:41:51 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 19, 2019, 07:05:55 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 19, 2019, 05:06:00 AM

Will you guys kick someone out if they go beyond three?  Or do these folks get to look back at you as just folks left back along the long trail?  It does say beyond.

You know - I'd like to get to the great beyond some day.

Was already discussed way back here (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-from-$2m-to-$3m/msg1874783/#msg1874783).

Looking at these older postings, I am beginning to realize that, in my household, we have Boglehead numbers but are mostly Mustachian in our attitudes.

In fact, looking at these "Interviews with millionaires" (https://esimoney.com/category/millionaires/ (https://esimoney.com/category/millionaires/)) only a few have a higher NW than what I calculated recently. We just don't feel it however - here in the New Jersey suburbs of New York, it feels as if everyone seems to be at the same level as us or perhaps much higher.

Is that because folks have the "appearance" of wealth where you live?

Out here in Oregon there is often very few outward signs that people are wealthy.. In fact if anyone appears wealthy its usually a sign they are up to their eyeballs in debt!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 20, 2019, 02:59:13 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 19, 2019, 06:18:42 PM

Is that because folks have the "appearance" of wealth where you live?

Out here in Oregon there is often very few outward signs that people are wealthy.. In fact if anyone appears wealthy its usually a sign they are up to their eyeballs in debt!

There's a lot external evidence of wealth around here:

• Regular malls may be shutting down all over the country but a small mall specializing in luxury goods (Hackensack Square) has actually been expanding.
• A Lamborghini dealership opened recently near the Trader Joe's where I shop in Paramus. The Ferrari dealer in Englewood Cliffs has expanded their showroom.
• New luxury apartments coming up in Edgewater overlooking New York.
• Looking at Zillow, I see homes in Tenafly with property taxes of $35000 per year - and yet no shortage of buyers. At some point the new tax law is surely going to have an impact but not yet I guess.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on August 20, 2019, 07:34:27 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 19, 2019, 05:06:00 AM

Will you guys kick someone out if they go beyond three?  Or do these folks get to look back at you as just folks left back along the long trail?  It does say beyond.

You know - I'd like to get to the great beyond some day.

You can check out anytime you like...

But you can never leave...

(Don Felder/Joe Walsh solo begins)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 21, 2019, 03:42:38 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 20, 2019, 02:59:13 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 19, 2019, 06:18:42 PM

Is that because folks have the "appearance" of wealth where you live?

Out here in Oregon there is often very few outward signs that people are wealthy.. In fact if anyone appears wealthy its usually a sign they are up to their eyeballs in debt!

There's a lot external evidence of wealth around here:

• Regular malls may be shutting down all over the country but a small mall specializing in luxury goods (Hackensack Square) has actually been expanding.
• A Lamborghini dealership opened recently near the Trader Joe's where I shop in Paramus. The Ferrari dealer in Englewood Cliffs has expanded their showroom.
• New luxury apartments coming up in Edgewater overlooking New York.
• Looking at Zillow, I see homes in Tenafly with property taxes of $35000 per year - and yet no shortage of buyers. At some point the new tax law is surely going to have an impact but not yet I guess.

This is what is happening in our are alot. Big malls going out and Fancier Boutique type malls with tons of apartments being built on top of them. Were outside of Milwaukee in the Burbs and there are two like this with in 5 minutes of us. One is called the Corners. Also has a smaller theater inside. I know there are several in all the adjoining burbs all around the city and the big mall that was downtown is now been bought out and is being turned into the same type of thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on August 21, 2019, 09:37:52 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 19, 2019, 03:02:14 PM

Quite positive too - I do have a chance to pass through to the great beyond.  If a man broke 25 years ago can do it, why not?

Hey, it's fun to see a link to one of my earliest postings on MMM.   I found this site to be in keeping with my financial attitudes and I've been here ever since.   But, just for the record, it's WO-man.   Yup, I was broke 25 years ago and now...I'm beyond and beyond that.  I mentioned this upthread because I'm so shocked, but my retirement calculator says I'll die with 14M with average returns. 

Our strategy was to buy investments (real estate), we had about 4 or so properties 25 years ago, including an apartment building, and we were scrambling to keep up with all the mortgage payments we had.  The RE market was depressed for so long it seemed it would never rebound, but we kept up with it.  I only wish I hadn't sold ANYTHING.  The apartments were sold at a break even (we tried to give them away for the existing loans, no takers!), and now worth 400-500K, cash flowing 4-5000K a month,  and would have been paid off years ago.  Darn that broken crystal ball! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 21, 2019, 10:05:16 AM

Hehe.. Sounds like we should have a new category.... "Beyond beyond"...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 21, 2019, 12:32:53 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 21, 2019, 10:05:16 AM

Hehe.. Sounds like we should have a new category.... "Beyond beyond"...:)

I vote no. As I'm pretty sure @arebelspy would say, anyone who works long enough to amass that much is doing it wrong. It's about buying your life back asap, isn't it?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 21, 2019, 01:18:03 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 21, 2019, 12:32:53 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 21, 2019, 10:05:16 AM

Hehe.. Sounds like we should have a new category.... "Beyond beyond"...:)

I vote no. As I'm pretty sure @arebelspy would say, anyone who works long enough to amass that much is doing it wrong. It's about buying your life back asap, isn't it?

And be richy rich McRich!...;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on August 21, 2019, 01:18:53 PM

My husband was telling me yesterday that he saw his latest performance review and was unhappy and disappointed with the rating. He is struggling between being upset for ego reasons and then logically reminding himself that he doesn’t care and is taking a mental step away from the idea of work and career. In some ways I can relate because I got used to being this stellar employee at my old company and now I’m struggling to do the basics and getting feedback from my boss on where I am falling short. Pulling up out spreadsheet that says we are 94% of the way does a tremendous amount to put our angst about work performance into perspective.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 21, 2019, 01:38:19 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on August 21, 2019, 01:18:53 PM

My husband was telling me yesterday that he saw his latest performance review and was unhappy and disappointed with the rating. He is struggling between being upset for ego reasons and then logically reminding himself that he doesn’t care and is taking a mental step away from the idea of work and career. In some ways I can relate because I got used to being this stellar employee at my old company and now I’m struggling to do the basics and getting feedback from my boss on where I am falling short. Pulling up out spreadsheet that says we are 94% of the way does a tremendous amount to put our angst about work performance into perspective.

Exactly! I am sure there are many of us that put their heart and soul into being the very best professional they can be. I was a kickass Mechanical engineer (and deeply humble!) and subsequent manager, coach mentor etc.

Then 10 years ago the politics started and they were trying to get me to leave on the cheap. They demoted me and promoted my colleague into my place.

It turns out the primary motivation was I was too expensive.

It takes a while to get into "FU" mode and realise its all a game. At the time this was deeply humiliating and set off one of my worse bouts of depression I'd ever had.

Now I'm FIRE'd and I dgaf.. But getting from there to here was an arduous journey for sure.

Oh I didn't leave but took a severence package about 4 years later which I immediately invested. Today that package is responsible for about 10% of our liquid networth!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on August 21, 2019, 02:20:29 PM

Maybe there is a tendency for people like us to want to succeed and make others happy and generally follow the straight-and narrow? So coming to terms with a demotion or not being the stellar employee is tough mental work. I’m glad you got there and awesome that the severance ended up being such a good sum.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 21, 2019, 02:40:35 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on August 21, 2019, 02:20:29 PM

Maybe there is a tendency for people like us to want to succeed and make others happy and generally follow the straight-and narrow? So coming to terms with a demotion or not being the stellar employee is tough mental work. I’m glad you got there and awesome that the severance ended up being such a good sum.

Straight and narrow...I'm sure thats the way I'm naturally wired. But look at the fabulously successful people.. Honestly most of them I know are asshole narcissists! "Its all about me.. waah waah waah".

Honestly it wasn't until I started getting pretty darned militant that I started pulling more $$.

Of course not needing a job helps one negotiate and put to one side the "honour" of being considered for your crappy job that YOU desperately need ME for.

I honestly hated this version of myself but it turned into me negotiating an 80% increase in pay and paid hourly thankyou very much.

I'm much softer and happier now I don't work..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on August 21, 2019, 02:48:03 PM

An 80% increase in lay is nothing to sneeze at.

As a kid I remember my father had two very distinct modes: work mode and home mode. Sometimes it would take him a bit to switch out of work mode when he first walked in the door and it was really weird seeing this focused, driven, riled-up person in place of my usual relaxed and goofy daddy. Makes me wonder how much of work I bring home without realizing it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 21, 2019, 11:46:28 PM

I too was once the stellar employee.  FU money screwed that up.  I really quit giving a crap a few years ago.  Amazingly, that was nearly a million dollars ago.

Quote from: Bateaux on February 06, 2015, 11:36:13 PM

I must say I'm much less productive since adoption of frugality.  I was always spending money on home improvement and doing projects before realizing the cost vs return just wasn't there.  When I had big bills coming in from spending I new fact in the face I had to bust azz at work to keep the money flowing.  Now with FU-Money I could give a rat's azz what my boss thinks.   I contribute minimally at work now.  Just well enough not to get fired.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 22, 2019, 02:44:39 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on August 21, 2019, 01:18:53 PM

My husband was telling me yesterday that he saw his latest performance review and was unhappy and disappointed with the rating. He is struggling between being upset for ego reasons and then logically reminding himself that he doesn’t care and is taking a mental step away from the idea of work and career.

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 21, 2019, 01:38:19 PM

Then 10 years ago the politics started and they were trying to get me to leave on the cheap. They demoted me and promoted my colleague into my place.

It turns out the primary motivation was I was too expensive.

I think you both have hit upon a very common situation - this is almost exactly what happened to me.

I kept getting increasingly manipulated into taking on ownership of the dullest parts of our product and then getting dinged for not being innovative enough. The tipping point came in 2018 - despite being given an extraordinarily dull assignment, I was somehow able to extract some interesting nuggets from it and (using my years of experience) fixed one of the worst parts of our product. And filed three patents about the solution I came up with!

I practically walked on water and was told, in effect, "looks like you can't swim" :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 22, 2019, 04:51:43 AM

Looks like a bit of a trend.  Management was attempting to maximize the tools and its disposal and simultaneously disregarding or forgetting that they were also human beings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 22, 2019, 07:33:32 AM

I needed to read this this morning guys. It's so bad. 39 weeks to go....

FI and my decision to RE in May 2020 is causing me to pull back. It's so hard to do much more than what is required of me. No fire. No desire. I'm just done. Meanwhile they hired a whiz kid who is running circles around me. He stole my direct report. He gets invited to all the important meetings with the big shots. They are all impressed with him because he's a smart kid who has the desire to read all the CMS regs in his free time, and kiss lots of ass when he's in the office. Me, not so much. I was once him but now I'm just a 40 something year old mom who's mind is really at home about 75% of the time, but I've got 20 years of experience. Sometimes I care. Sometimes I feel so depressed as I feel like I'm watching it slip away. Last night I cried when I got home. But yet I have no, zero, absolutely no desire to fight for the work and the recognition. I hate big office politics.
Sometimes I worry that they might be trying to get to a position where they can lay me off. Where they don't need me as a SME. I'm fairly expensive. Obviously I don't care about that, other than it would really hurt my ego.

Not sure what to do. My DH says keep going to May. Do the minimum required but do good work. Try not to care. Collect your bonus and GTFO.

Sorry that was an emotional brain dump.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on August 22, 2019, 09:17:12 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 22, 2019, 07:33:32 AM

I needed to read this this morning guys. It's so bad. 39 weeks to go....

FI and my decision to RE in May 2020 is causing me to pull back. It's so hard to do much more than what is required of me. No fire. No desire. I'm just done. Meanwhile they hired a whiz kid who is running circles around me. He stole my direct report. He gets invited to all the important meetings with the big shots. They are all impressed with him because he's a smart kid who has the desire to read all the CMS regs in his free time, and kiss lots of ass when he's in the office. Me, not so much. I was once him but now I'm just a 40 something year old mom who's mind is really at home about 75% of the time, but I've got 20 years of experience. Sometimes I care. Sometimes I feel so depressed as I feel like I'm watching it slip away. Last night I cried when I got home. But yet I have no, zero, absolutely no desire to fight for the work and the recognition. I hate big office politics.
Sometimes I worry that they might be trying to get to a position where they can lay me off. Where they don't need me as a SME. I'm fairly expensive. Obviously I don't care about that, other than it would really hurt my ego.

Not sure what to do. My DH says keep going to May. Do the minimum required but do good work. Try not to care. Collect your bonus and GTFO.

Sorry that was an emotional brain dump.

Why May?  This sounds awful.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 22, 2019, 09:26:19 AM

No need to be sorry @BeanCounter. Thats what we are here for. To separate the facts/figures from the emotional part of the FIRE process would be ludicrous!

When you go the $$ part sorted (which it sounds like you have) the rest of it is all about feelings! Asking a male engineer about something called "feelings" is worse than asking him to saw his own leg off!

But emotions are real.

I get it.. in the last three months of getting up at 4:30am to make an 80 mile drive to the office I felt physically sick!

Believe me we been there..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 22, 2019, 09:58:55 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on August 22, 2019, 09:17:12 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 22, 2019, 07:33:32 AM

I needed to read this this morning guys. It's so bad. 39 weeks to go....

FI and my decision to RE in May 2020 is causing me to pull back. It's so hard to do much more than what is required of me. No fire. No desire. I'm just done. Meanwhile they hired a whiz kid who is running circles around me. He stole my direct report. He gets invited to all the important meetings with the big shots. They are all impressed with him because he's a smart kid who has the desire to read all the CMS regs in his free time, and kiss lots of ass when he's in the office. Me, not so much. I was once him but now I'm just a 40 something year old mom who's mind is really at home about 75% of the time, but I've got 20 years of experience. Sometimes I care. Sometimes I feel so depressed as I feel like I'm watching it slip away. Last night I cried when I got home. But yet I have no, zero, absolutely no desire to fight for the work and the recognition. I hate big office politics.
Sometimes I worry that they might be trying to get to a position where they can lay me off. Where they don't need me as a SME. I'm fairly expensive. Obviously I don't care about that, other than it would really hurt my ego.

Not sure what to do. My DH says keep going to May. Do the minimum required but do good work. Try not to care. Collect your bonus and GTFO.

Sorry that was an emotional brain dump.

Why May?  This sounds awful.

Well, the May date came about for several reasons-
-Last spring we spent $80k remodeling our home and we wanted to put that cash back in place so we could tap it for kids stuff if need be. My DH also needs his car replaced so some of the cash I bring in will go to that.
-Last spring we also already had our summer nanny lined up and I felt that we would have left her without a job which she was counting on for college tuition.
-The nanny situation meant I was committed to working through this summer, which meant I would be staying to do the budget (which I'm doing now) and if I do the budget, I want the bonus that goes with that hard work
-My bonus for this year should come in Feb or March
-working through Feb or March means I should probably just keep the after school nanny through the rest of the school year because she too depends on that income for her college tuition

I guess I could pull the plug sometime earlier in the spring after my bonus comes in.

Also, just as a side note- We just went through a big merger and another acquisition so everyone around here is fighting for work, new titles, more money. So I don't think it's just me that feels the pressure of other people trying to phase them out. I just have a lot of internal pressure around not trying to fight it. I feel like I should be fighting but I don't want to, and I know I'm leaving so I would be doing them a disservice if I did.
And there is a lot baked in there too, around this internal fight I've had for the last ten years of my life about if I'm truly a career women or a mom. I made it to a director role through hard work and fight, but now I hate what I have to give up to stay or become VP or CFO.
Ugh, again. Sorry that's a lot.
What's the saying- "Mo money, Mo problems". I totally identify.

TLDNR- I'm trying not to be an impulsive three year old and just quit, but I really want to

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 22, 2019, 10:05:55 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on August 22, 2019, 09:17:12 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 22, 2019, 07:33:32 AM

I needed to read this this morning guys. It's so bad. 39 weeks to go....

FI and my decision to RE in May 2020 is causing me to pull back. It's so hard to do much more than what is required of me. No fire. No desire. I'm just done. Meanwhile they hired a whiz kid who is running circles around me. He stole my direct report. He gets invited to all the important meetings with the big shots. They are all impressed with him because he's a smart kid who has the desire to read all the CMS regs in his free time, and kiss lots of ass when he's in the office. Me, not so much. I was once him but now I'm just a 40 something year old mom who's mind is really at home about 75% of the time, but I've got 20 years of experience. Sometimes I care. Sometimes I feel so depressed as I feel like I'm watching it slip away. Last night I cried when I got home. But yet I have no, zero, absolutely no desire to fight for the work and the recognition. I hate big office politics.
Sometimes I worry that they might be trying to get to a position where they can lay me off. Where they don't need me as a SME. I'm fairly expensive. Obviously I don't care about that, other than it would really hurt my ego.

Not sure what to do. My DH says keep going to May. Do the minimum required but do good work. Try not to care. Collect your bonus and GTFO.

Sorry that was an emotional brain dump.

Why May?  This sounds awful.

JoJoP, the answer, or at least part of it, is in the last line.

Years ago, I was a well respected manager, doing a good job for a boss I liked. Suddenly it all changed. I couldn't figure out why.  Nearly twenty years later, a random conversation with someone I had hired and trusted ("R") provided the explanation. Seems R had been cultivated by my assistant, who knew I knew R outside of work (not particularly closely, but he was in my social orbit). He eventually "turned" him, for which R was now profusely apologizing. Seems my assistant wanted my job and had figured out, with R's help, I wasn't that into it.

What R didn't know, was that painful as the experience was, he was actually doing me a favor. I left and never looked back. In retrospect, I'm okay that it happened, because it hastened my journey to FIRE. As for my former assistant, who knows what happened to him? I hope he's happy, but I am certain that I am happier.

Hang in there. Let the kid burn himself out or even appear to eclipse you. You have other goals and a new life to lead.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on August 22, 2019, 10:08:22 AM

@BeanCounter, if you "qualify" for this group or even in the 1-2M thread, you're done, FIRE already :-)

Unless the bonus would increase your net worth by 25-50%, then it is a carrot too small to stress over.  Not being needed as a SME? Well that would happen in May 2020 anyway.  So FIRE on your schedule/timeline.

Disclosure: As OP of the 2019 cohort thread, I might be a little motivated to recruit for that group thread.  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 22, 2019, 10:16:15 AM

Just wonder if any of you that have gone on "beyond" the work thing, if you look back at the reminders of office politics.  Then you smile and tell yourself like so many things in life that once seemed so important at the time perhaps weren't.  I wonder if looking at these things in hindsight puts a sharper lens upon them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 22, 2019, 11:03:41 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 22, 2019, 10:05:55 AM

Hang in there. Let the kid burn himself out or even appear to eclipse you. You have other goals and a new life to lead.

Thank you Dicey. I needed this. You're right. I keep trying to just listen to music and focus on my to-do list and that's it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 22, 2019, 11:07:37 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on August 22, 2019, 10:08:22 AM

@BeanCounter, if you "qualify" for this group or even in the 1-2M thread, you're done, FIRE already :-)

Unless the bonus would increase your net worth by 25-50%, then it is a carrot too small to stress over.  Not being needed as a SME? Well that would happen in May 2020 anyway.  So FIRE on your schedule/timeline.

Disclosure: As OP of the 2019 cohort thread, I might be a little motivated to recruit for that group thread.  :-)

So as a CPA and finance professional I am ashamed to say that I did not think of this in terms of materiality. But yes, you are exactly right. My bonus will likely amount to .5% of our NW. My take home plus bonus for the next 39 weeks will likely be closer to 1%
But I do think that keeping the commitment to our after-school nanny is important.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 22, 2019, 12:07:25 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 22, 2019, 10:16:15 AM

Just wonder if any of you that have gone on "beyond" the work thing, if you look back at the reminders of office politics.  Then you smile and tell yourself like so many things in life that once seemed so important at the time perhaps weren't.  I wonder if looking at these things in hindsight puts a sharper lens upon them.

Totally!.. The demotion thing I mentioned above was brutal but also a huge motivator to sit the exams for the professional engineering license. Since one of those 8 hour exams you are supposed to take in your last year of your engineering degree well needless to say 25 years after I graduated and not knowing the old "English" system of engineering units this was bloody hard work! WTF is a British Thermal Unit anyway?

This one massive feat made me much more valuable outside of my company and the 500 hours of study honestly made me a better engineer.

So all of that with a full time job was pretty hard time to be honest.. But looking back it paid huge dividends!

Now I am at the point where the thought of work doesn't even occur to me anymore, let alone not care about work.. I hardly even remember it..:)

... And that is pretty freaking priceless!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 22, 2019, 01:17:06 PM

Bout had enough.   Four hour meeting this morning.  Got out at lunch.  Went for some Chinese food and immediately regretted it.  Bailed out to the nearby library where the restroom is clean.   Decided to look for some hiking books.  Same old books I have read from the 90s.  Found a quiet place to nap a little.  Headed back to work for 3pm to put in an unplanned 12 hour night shift.  I don't work 16 hour days anymore!  Dammit I need to FIRE!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on August 22, 2019, 04:26:52 PM

I’m on maternity leave right now and am spending the bulk of the day at the hôpital where my preemie is being cared for. This means most of the time I am kicked back in this reclining arm chair with a tiny baby snoozing on my chest.

It is a little surprising how much I NEED this quiet time to just be. This past year has been so busy with almost no down time to be in my own head. Maybe this is what the beginning of FIRE is like when you detox? Or maybe it is different because I am also healing from major surgery, so while I feel physically good my body and mind may need some extra down time all the same.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 22, 2019, 05:21:55 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on August 22, 2019, 04:26:52 PM

I’m on maternity leave right now and am spending the bulk of the day at the hôpital where my preemie is being cared for. This means most of the time I am kicked back in this reclining arm chair with a tiny baby snoozing on my chest.

It is a little surprising how much I NEED this quiet time to just be. This past year has been so busy with almost no down time to be in my own head. Maybe this is what the beginning of FIRE is like when you detox? Or maybe it is different because I am also healing from major surgery, so while I feel physically good my body and mind may need some extra down time all the same.

Good luck to you and your baby.  Priorities are in order.  Wishing you both health.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on August 22, 2019, 08:08:41 PM

Thank you

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on August 22, 2019, 10:43:33 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 22, 2019, 11:07:37 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on August 22, 2019, 10:08:22 AM

@BeanCounter, if you "qualify" for this group or even in the 1-2M thread, you're done, FIRE already :-)

Unless the bonus would increase your net worth by 25-50%, then it is a carrot too small to stress over.  Not being needed as a SME? Well that would happen in May 2020 anyway.  So FIRE on your schedule/timeline.

Disclosure: As OP of the 2019 cohort thread, I might be a little motivated to recruit for that group thread.  :-)

So as a CPA and finance professional I am ashamed to say that I did not think of this in terms of materiality. But yes, you are exactly right. My bonus will likely amount to .5% of our NW. My take home plus bonus for the next 39 weeks will likely be closer to 1%
But I do think that keeping the commitment to our after-school nanny is important.

Is it required for you to be at work for the nanny to function? Just asking....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on August 22, 2019, 10:58:50 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 22, 2019, 01:17:06 PM

Bout had enough.   Four hour meeting this morning.  Got out at lunch.  Went for some Chinese food and immediately regretted it.  Bailed out to the nearby library where the restroom is clean.   Decided to look for some hiking books.  Same old books I have read from the 90s.  Found a quiet place to nap a little.  Headed back to work for 3pm to put in an unplanned 12 hour night shift.  I don't work 16 hour days anymore!  Dammit I need to FIRE!

You shouldn't work 16 hour days anymore!
Obviously you still do.   Still excited about OMY?

Is the measly extra income ( compared to your net worth) sufficient compensation for the BS?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on August 23, 2019, 09:42:54 AM

Quote from: lhamo on August 23, 2019, 09:20:31 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 22, 2019, 11:07:37 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on August 22, 2019, 10:08:22 AM

@BeanCounter, if you "qualify" for this group or even in the 1-2M thread, you're done, FIRE already :-)

Unless the bonus would increase your net worth by 25-50%, then it is a carrot too small to stress over.  Not being needed as a SME? Well that would happen in May 2020 anyway.  So FIRE on your schedule/timeline.

Disclosure: As OP of the 2019 cohort thread, I might be a little motivated to recruit for that group thread.  :-)

So as a CPA and finance professional I am ashamed to say that I did not think of this in terms of materiality. But yes, you are exactly right. My bonus will likely amount to .5% of our NW. My take home plus bonus for the next 39 weeks will likely be closer to 1%
But I do think that keeping the commitment to our after-school nanny is important.

Don't keep working longer than necessary because of the nanny situation.  It is very nice to be considerate of her, but there are lots of ways you can do that.  For example, you can tell her she should start looking for a new position, and that you will write her excellent rec letters and give her a nice final bonus.  If she is good it won't take her long to find one.  And you will be doing a huge service to her new family, who may be struggling to find someone mid-year.

At a minimum, have a conversation with her about it.  You are assuming a lot here that may not be true.

Totally agree.  Tell her the situation and give her a very nice bonus.  Assuming good nanny's are as hard to find as they used to be she'll come out ahead

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 23, 2019, 08:55:21 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on August 23, 2019, 09:42:54 AM

Quote from: lhamo on August 23, 2019, 09:20:31 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 22, 2019, 11:07:37 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on August 22, 2019, 10:08:22 AM

@BeanCounter, if you "qualify" for this group or even in the 1-2M thread, you're done, FIRE already :-)

Unless the bonus would increase your net worth by 25-50%, then it is a carrot too small to stress over.  Not being needed as a SME? Well that would happen in May 2020 anyway.  So FIRE on your schedule/timeline.

Disclosure: As OP of the 2019 cohort thread, I might be a little motivated to recruit for that group thread.  :-)

So as a CPA and finance professional I am ashamed to say that I did not think of this in terms of materiality. But yes, you are exactly right. My bonus will likely amount to .5% of our NW. My take home plus bonus for the next 39 weeks will likely be closer to 1%
But I do think that keeping the commitment to our after-school nanny is important.

Don't keep working longer than necessary because of the nanny situation.  It is very nice to be considerate of her, but there are lots of ways you can do that.  For example, you can tell her she should start looking for a new position, and that you will write her excellent rec letters and give her a nice final bonus.  If she is good it won't take her long to find one.  And you will be doing a huge service to her new family, who may be struggling to find someone mid-year.

At a minimum, have a conversation with her about it.  You are assuming a lot here that may not be true.

Totally agree.  Tell her the situation and give her a very nice bonus.  Assuming good nanny's are as hard to find as they used to be she'll come out ahead

Yup. Another vote to set the nanny free. Generously, of course, but give her her freedom with plenty of notice. Better still, find a replacement gig for her.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 23, 2019, 10:51:21 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on August 22, 2019, 10:58:50 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 22, 2019, 01:17:06 PM

Bout had enough.   Four hour meeting this morning.  Got out at lunch.  Went for some Chinese food and immediately regretted it.  Bailed out to the nearby library where the restroom is clean.   Decided to look for some hiking books.  Same old books I have read from the 90s.  Found a quiet place to nap a little.  Headed back to work for 3pm to put in an unplanned 12 hour night shift.  I don't work 16 hour days anymore!  Dammit I need to FIRE!

You shouldn't work 16 hour days anymore!
Obviously you still do.   Still excited about OMY?

Is the measly extra income ( compared to your net worth) sufficient compensation for the BS?

Let me have it!  Face Punch!  Face Punch!  Slept 8 hours after the shift and it's better.  Next Thursday I'll be headed to our Florida home for a week.  Work 3 days then two weeks off to hike in the Smokies.  I made $1000 gross in those 16 hours.  It will cover weeks of hiking time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: RWD on August 24, 2019, 06:53:42 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 23, 2019, 10:51:21 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on August 22, 2019, 10:58:50 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 22, 2019, 01:17:06 PM

Bout had enough.   Four hour meeting this morning.  Got out at lunch.  Went for some Chinese food and immediately regretted it.  Bailed out to the nearby library where the restroom is clean.   Decided to look for some hiking books.  Same old books I have read from the 90s.  Found a quiet place to nap a little.  Headed back to work for 3pm to put in an unplanned 12 hour night shift.  I don't work 16 hour days anymore!  Dammit I need to FIRE!

You shouldn't work 16 hour days anymore!
Obviously you still do.   Still excited about OMY?

Is the measly extra income ( compared to your net worth) sufficient compensation for the BS?

Let me have it!  Face Punch!  Face Punch!  Slept 8 hours after the shift and it's better.  Next Thursday I'll be headed to our Florida home for a week.  Work 3 days then two weeks off to hike in the Smokies.  I made $1000 gross in those 16 hours.  It will cover weeks of hiking time.

What good does an extra $1k do if you already have more than enough to cover all your expenses?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 24, 2019, 08:00:50 AM

Quote from: RWD on August 24, 2019, 06:53:42 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 23, 2019, 10:51:21 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on August 22, 2019, 10:58:50 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 22, 2019, 01:17:06 PM

Bout had enough.   Four hour meeting this morning.  Got out at lunch.  Went for some Chinese food and immediately regretted it.  Bailed out to the nearby library where the restroom is clean.   Decided to look for some hiking books.  Same old books I have read from the 90s.  Found a quiet place to nap a little.  Headed back to work for 3pm to put in an unplanned 12 hour night shift.  I don't work 16 hour days anymore!  Dammit I need to FIRE!

You shouldn't work 16 hour days anymore!
Obviously you still do.   Still excited about OMY?

Is the measly extra income ( compared to your net worth) sufficient compensation for the BS?

Let me have it!  Face Punch!  Face Punch!  Slept 8 hours after the shift and it's better.  Next Thursday I'll be headed to our Florida home for a week.  Work 3 days then two weeks off to hike in the Smokies.  I made $1000 gross in those 16 hours.  It will cover weeks of hiking time.

What good does an extra $1k do if you already have more than enough to cover all your expenses?

Hookers and blow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on August 24, 2019, 09:44:45 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 24, 2019, 08:00:50 AM

Quote from: RWD on August 24, 2019, 06:53:42 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 23, 2019, 10:51:21 PM

Let me have it!  Face Punch!  Face Punch!  Slept 8 hours after the shift and it's better.  Next Thursday I'll be headed to our Florida home for a week.  Work 3 days then two weeks off to hike in the Smokies.  I made $1000 gross in those 16 hours.  It will cover weeks of hiking time.

What good does an extra $1k do if you already have more than enough to cover all your expenses?

Hookers and blow.

woo, makes me feel better about WFH for $100/hr the past three months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 25, 2019, 02:30:39 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on August 24, 2019, 09:44:45 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 24, 2019, 08:00:50 AM

Quote from: RWD on August 24, 2019, 06:53:42 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 23, 2019, 10:51:21 PM

Let me have it!  Face Punch!  Face Punch!  Slept 8 hours after the shift and it's better.  Next Thursday I'll be headed to our Florida home for a week.  Work 3 days then two weeks off to hike in the Smokies.  I made $1000 gross in those 16 hours.  It will cover weeks of hiking time.

What good does an extra $1k do if you already have more than enough to cover all your expenses?

Hookers and blow.

woo, makes me feel better about WFH for $100/hr the past three months.

If you can make the money easy, whey you want,  in cash and is a side gig, nothing wrong with that. If you have the money to be fire'd and are still busting ass , well then that is different!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on August 29, 2019, 11:27:17 AM

Definitely relating to much of the recent posts. I'm going back to work (next week!) after my sabbatical. The sabbatical made it clear that I currently have zero desire to go back to work, have a big "career", or deal with bullshit. Here's why I'm going back:

-We'd planned to have me go part time (cutting my salary to probably 20% of what I currently make, as I wouldn't be able to do part time in current role & am very, very well paid) & my husband would keep working. This was his call & he's never expressed any desire to quit whatsoever. Until, the last few months. So, going back to work for a bit is a hedge to ensure if he reaches the FU point, we can make it work & allow both of us to FIRE.
-I'm up for a milestone promotion immediately upon my return. I've been in the industry for over 20 years, and this is a huge thing. While I'm currently not of the mindset to go back to work at all, what if that changes? Or, what if something happens to my husband over the next few years & he's unable to work. This is a hedge that will lock in my current level, in the unlikely event I need to go back for a few years & pull in a big salary.
-My son was recently diagnosed with ADHD. We have good health care, but many of the services we are considering are not covered by insurance & are incredibly pricey. I'd like to build enough of a cushion to cover those costs that weren't on the radar a year ago.

So, current revised plan:
-Return from sabbatical next week. Already had to schedule first international work trip. *tears*
-Hopefully get promoted in December
-Collect large bonus in January, max 401K & HSA out again
-Stay for sixish months post promo, per agreement with VPs
-Quit before my son (ADHD, so needing more support) starts high school next August.
-Find something part-time & flexible

We're in the $3.6M net worth range, but much of that is tied up into our housing. We could (as it's been pointed out so very many times ;-)) sell our house & move into something cheaper & both be done with working. It's partially inertia & also just the insane housing market where we are that's keeping us in place. Because of the house, our expenses are high & we need a large cushion to get through the next 6-7 years until both kids are in college.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on August 29, 2019, 01:33:48 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 22, 2019, 07:33:32 AM

I needed to read this this morning guys. It's so bad. 39 weeks to go....

FI and my decision to RE in May 2020 is causing me to pull back. It's so hard to do much more than what is required of me. No fire. No desire. I'm just done. Meanwhile they hired a whiz kid who is running circles around me. He stole my direct report. He gets invited to all the important meetings with the big shots. They are all impressed with him because he's a smart kid who has the desire to read all the CMS regs in his free time, and kiss lots of ass when he's in the office. Me, not so much. I was once him but now I'm just a 40 something year old mom who's mind is really at home about 75% of the time, but I've got 20 years of experience. Sometimes I care. Sometimes I feel so depressed as I feel like I'm watching it slip away. Last night I cried when I got home. But yet I have no, zero, absolutely no desire to fight for the work and the recognition. I hate big office politics.
Sometimes I worry that they might be trying to get to a position where they can lay me off. Where they don't need me as a SME. I'm fairly expensive. Obviously I don't care about that, other than it would really hurt my ego.

Not sure what to do. My DH says keep going to May. Do the minimum required but do good work. Try not to care. Collect your bonus and GTFO.

Sorry that was an emotional brain dump.

I would absolutely LOVE to be laid off.  Unemployment = money for nuthin'.  But I could retire today if I felt like it......

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on August 29, 2019, 09:16:45 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on August 29, 2019, 11:27:17 AM

Definitely relating to much of the recent posts. I'm going back to work (next week!) after my sabbatical. The sabbatical made it clear that I currently have zero desire to go back to work, have a big "career", or deal with bullshit. Here's why I'm going back:

-We'd planned to have me go part time (cutting my salary to probably 20% of what I currently make, as I wouldn't be able to do part time in current role & am very, very well paid) & my husband would keep working. This was his call & he's never expressed any desire to quit whatsoever. Until, the last few months. So, going back to work for a bit is a hedge to ensure if he reaches the FU point, we can make it work & allow both of us to FIRE.
-I'm up for a milestone promotion immediately upon my return. I've been in the industry for over 20 years, and this is a huge thing. While I'm currently not of the mindset to go back to work at all, what if that changes? Or, what if something happens to my husband over the next few years & he's unable to work. This is a hedge that will lock in my current level, in the unlikely event I need to go back for a few years & pull in a big salary.
-My son was recently diagnosed with ADHD. We have good health care, but many of the services we are considering are not covered by insurance & are incredibly pricey. I'd like to build enough of a cushion to cover those costs that weren't on the radar a year ago.

So, current revised plan:
-Return from sabbatical next week. Already had to schedule first international work trip. *tears*
-Hopefully get promoted in December
-Collect large bonus in January, max 401K & HSA out again
-Stay for sixish months post promo, per agreement with VPs
-Quit before my son (ADHD, so needing more support) starts high school next August.
-Find something part-time & flexible

We're in the $3.6M net worth range, but much of that is tied up into our housing. We could (as it's been pointed out so very many times ;-)) sell our house & move into something cheaper & both be done with working. It's partially inertia & also just the insane housing market where we are that's keeping us in place. Because of the house, our expenses are high & we need a large cushion to get through the next 6-7 years until both kids are in college.

Wow, your sabbatical is over already?! How time has flown. Or I’ve been busy being self-absorbed lately. One of the two. :-)

You your husband may be changing his thinking and might not want to continue working forever? What has prompted that in his mind?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: webguy on August 30, 2019, 02:23:48 AM

Quote from: webguy on January 18, 2019, 03:18:50 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 09, 2018, 01:40:34 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 08, 2018, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 06, 2017, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on August 24, 2016, 07:53:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 01, 2016, 10:42:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 13, 2016, 01:41:00 PM

Quote from: webguy on November 12, 2015, 09:46:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 26, 2015, 08:35:08 PM

I'd like to join to help motivate me. Currently at $540k and hope to hit the big 1M in the next couple of years.

I made it to $748k! Keep saving everybody!!

I made it to $988k and was getting excited... and then taxes hit! Looks like it'll be another few months yet :(

I finally did it!! Crawled over the line to $1,000,330 today!  Feels pretty surreal. Never thought I'd actually be worth a million dollars. Now I guess I keep on saving towards the next million!

Currently at $1.11m.  Don't really have a goal number at this point. I love running my own business so just tryna ride it out as long as possible and "make hay while the sun shines" as they say.

Passed the half way point!  Somehow we have $1.535m. Not sure how long the next 0.465 will take but I'll report back if we get there!

It took a little longer than I’d hoped due to the market being a douchebag lately but we Just hit 2 million today! We’re officially multi-millionaires I guess! I crunched the numbers and I think our “fat fire” number is around 2.5-3M so I’ll probably keep trucking away till we hit that, then I’m not sure what I’ll do.

Can I join your thread?  We just hit 2M yesterday! And with the friendly market today we're up another 15k already!  I'm carrying over our progress from the race to 2M thread if that's OK as I like keeping track of it this way.

Felt like we got stuck around 2.3M forever but finally hit 2.5M today! Next stop 3M... and beyond!

It’s been a long time coming but finally hit 3M today! Next stop... beyond! :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 30, 2019, 03:56:19 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on August 29, 2019, 11:27:17 AM

Definitely relating to much of the recent posts. I'm going back to work (next week!) after my sabbatical. The sabbatical made it clear that I currently have zero desire to go back to work, have a big "career", or deal with bullshit. Here's why I'm going back:
...
We're in the $3.6M net worth range, but much of that is tied up into our housing. We could (as it's been pointed out so very many times ;-)) sell our house & move into something cheaper & both be done with working. It's partially inertia & also just the insane housing market where we are that's keeping us in place. Because of the house, our expenses are high & we need a large cushion to get through the next 6-7 years until both kids are in college.

As it happens, my sabbatical is over too. I am starting next week at a startup after 5 weeks off (I quit my megacorp job in July). I think of this as a post-retirement gig so I'm not stressed despite this being a startup! I know and like many of the people so hopefully, I'll have an enjoyable time.

All money feels abstract until you actually spend it, and money tied up in real-estate feels even more abstract! I think you have a good tactical approach to increasing your liquid net worth in the short run so hopefully, you can grit your teeth and get through it.

(Speaking as one who tried to grit his teeth and get through another six months at megacorp and failed :-))

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on August 30, 2019, 07:56:13 AM

@ysette9 - you've been just a little busy. ;-) My husband has had such a different experience than me, at the same company. He's been laid off 2x, and in the second "lay off", was offered a job that he didn't want but felt compelled to take to get him through this perf cycle. In all of the time I've known him, I've never seen him work this hard. 12 hour days in the office, and waking up at 2:00 am every day to WFH for 5 hours. He's also working all weekend. He's miserable, we never see him, and I think he's just come to the conclusion that he's done. Of course, he can go & find something else, but I also think he'd like the flexibility to just stop working & have the freedom to pick & choose between a role he really wants. We're financially not quite there yet. We need at least one of us working a "career job" for the next few years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 30, 2019, 08:19:21 AM

Quote from: webguy on August 30, 2019, 02:23:48 AM

It’s been a long time coming but finally hit 3M today! Next stop... beyond! :)

Congrats @webguy - do you have a number or an ER age you are shooting for?  Any changes on the horizon or are you just going to let it ride?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on August 30, 2019, 09:09:53 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on August 30, 2019, 07:56:13 AM

In all of the time I've known him, I've never seen him work this hard. 12 hour days in the office, and waking up at 2:00 am every day to WFH for 5 hours. He's also working all weekend. He's miserable, we never see him, and I think he's just come to the conclusion that he's done.

There is an in between here and I went with it a long time ago.  Work 8-5.  No more than that.  No weekends, no late night, no work from home.  If the work doesn't all get done, it's because the employer needs to hire another worker.  But they won't when they have a patsy who will work for free on their own time.  I was lucky to see someone early in my career who was always working.  A layoff came and their entire group was laid off.  I talked with this person who said they would never again put in extra time.  They had done it for years and it bought them exactly zero.  Nothing.  Nada.  It was a waste of time.  But you have to have the discipline to stick with it.  If you don't.....well.....enjoy working for free.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: webguy on August 30, 2019, 09:11:42 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 30, 2019, 08:19:21 AM

Quote from: webguy on August 30, 2019, 02:23:48 AM

It’s been a long time coming but finally hit 3M today! Next stop... beyond! :)

Congrats @webguy - do you have a number or an ER age you are shooting for?  Any changes on the horizon or are you just going to let it ride?

Thanks! I don't really have an age in mind, but I have considered selling my business and cashing out and then just taking some time off.  I'm on the fence about it though. I could probably net about $2.5M after taxes which would put us in a pretty good place, but it's a business I've built from the ground-up and poured blood, sweat and tears into so I'm not sure if I want to sell it. I may just hire myself mostly out of the business instead and keep it rolling. Hopefully I'll have figured it out by the next time I post an update in here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jengod on August 30, 2019, 09:16:32 AM

Quote from: webguy on August 30, 2019, 02:23:48 AM

Quote from: webguy on January 18, 2019, 03:18:50 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 09, 2018, 01:40:34 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 08, 2018, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 06, 2017, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on August 24, 2016, 07:53:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 01, 2016, 10:42:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 13, 2016, 01:41:00 PM

Quote from: webguy on November 12, 2015, 09:46:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 26, 2015, 08:35:08 PM

I'd like to join to help motivate me. Currently at $540k and hope to hit the big 1M in the next couple of years.

I made it to $748k! Keep saving everybody!!

I made it to $988k and was getting excited... and then taxes hit! Looks like it'll be another few months yet :(

I finally did it!! Crawled over the line to $1,000,330 today!  Feels pretty surreal. Never thought I'd actually be worth a million dollars. Now I guess I keep on saving towards the next million!

Currently at $1.11m.  Don't really have a goal number at this point. I love running my own business so just tryna ride it out as long as possible and "make hay while the sun shines" as they say.

Passed the half way point!  Somehow we have $1.535m. Not sure how long the next 0.465 will take but I'll report back if we get there!

It took a little longer than I’d hoped due to the market being a douchebag lately but we Just hit 2 million today! We’re officially multi-millionaires I guess! I crunched the numbers and I think our “fat fire” number is around 2.5-3M so I’ll probably keep trucking away till we hit that, then I’m not sure what I’ll do.

Can I join your thread?  We just hit 2M yesterday! And with the friendly market today we're up another 15k already!  I'm carrying over our progress from the race to 2M thread if that's OK as I like keeping track of it this way.

Felt like we got stuck around 2.3M forever but finally hit 2.5M today! Next stop 3M... and beyond!

It’s been a long time coming but finally hit 3M today! Next stop... beyond! :)

Terrific. Nicely done and congrats.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on August 30, 2019, 09:38:13 AM

@2sk22 - it's pretty hard to even think about coming back, but I keep reminding myself that I'm buying flexibility for both of us (myself & my husband). He was super supportive about the sabbatical, & I want to make sure he feels supported in the future, should he ever need/want to leave his high paying job for something else.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on August 30, 2019, 09:40:01 AM

@Car Jack - we've had that conversation & I've encouraged as much as I can. He needs to come to that realization on his own, and he's not quite there yet. It's definitely coming, as he sees how much time he's investing for minimal upside. I give it another few months. With me returning to work, international travel, etc, it's pretty clear that something has got to give, and that thing is going to be his schedule.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on August 30, 2019, 10:52:08 AM

Oh, the “No Asshole Rule” pops up! I took a class from the author when I was doing my master’s at Stanford just as that book was being published so I got to hear him self promote a good amount during lectures. It was a good class with good material but I have to say that the professor was full of himself. I’m glad you found the book helpful though. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 30, 2019, 11:45:57 AM

Quote from: webguy on August 30, 2019, 09:11:42 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 30, 2019, 08:19:21 AM

Quote from: webguy on August 30, 2019, 02:23:48 AM

It’s been a long time coming but finally hit 3M today! Next stop... beyond! :)

Congrats @webguy - do you have a number or an ER age you are shooting for?  Any changes on the horizon or are you just going to let it ride?

Thanks! I don't really have an age in mind, but I have considered selling my business and cashing out and then just taking some time off.  I'm on the fence about it though. I could probably net about $2.5M after taxes which would put us in a pretty good place, but it's a business I've built from the ground-up and poured blood, sweat and tears into so I'm not sure if I want to sell it. I may just hire myself mostly out of the business instead and keep it rolling. Hopefully I'll have figured it out by the next time I post an update in here.

Well, welcome to the ranks of having plenty of money and still not knowing exactly what you want to do next!  There are certainly worse things than having the net worth grow while you figure it out.  I've tried a little bit of everything - ramping up spending / giving,  more travel, new hobbies, more time off ...  it's nice to have the options FI gives us, with ER just being one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on August 30, 2019, 01:48:08 PM

I have about 1.76 million in the liquid portion, and the real estate pushes me over the 2 million mark, but I simply am content to coast along.
I work part time, and that suits me. It affords me the time to do the things I enjoy.
My spending is barely $2500 a month, so I don't need a lot. I don't really like to travel. I'm a homebody.
No kids to worry about.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 30, 2019, 02:21:03 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on August 30, 2019, 01:48:08 PM

I have about 1.76 million in the liquid portion, and the real estate pushes me over the 2 million mark, but I simply am content to coast along.
I work part time, and that suits me. It affords me the time to do the things I enjoy.
My spending is barely $2500 a month, so I don't need a lot. I don't really like to travel. I'm a homebody.
No kids to worry about.

I knew a guy once who got rich with the liquid portion like yourself.  He invested in an oil well and there was actually oil there.

The sad thing was he was exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam and all that money didn't help him.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on August 30, 2019, 07:27:08 PM

I realize now my spending is more like $3,000 a month.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 31, 2019, 08:07:57 AM

$3,000 / month  X 12 = $36,000 per annum

$36,000 / .04 = $900,000 for good chance of self sustaining.

$900,000 < $2,000,000 or $1,760,000

You are doing well.  More than 25 years of decent living saved.

I think a lot of people have yet to learn what you have.  The time is more important than the money.  I am still learning it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 31, 2019, 12:34:04 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 31, 2019, 08:07:57 AM

$3,000 / month  X 12 = $36,000 per annum

$36,000 / .04 = $900,000 for good chance of self sustaining.

$900,000 < $2,000,000 or $1,760,000

You are doing well.  More than 25 years of decent living saved.

I think a lot of people have yet to learn what you have.  The time is more important than the money.  I am still learning it.

Two interesting things summed up by all this.  First, the math is easy.  Once you hit a calculated 'number' then you can feel free and you have all the data history can provide to back you up.  Get on with life!  Second, Time is only more important than money when you have more than enough of one or the other.  If you feel poor and miserable perpetually, then time is not very important.  If you are going to die soon, then maybe making sure your estate that you worked your life for is taken care of is a good idea.  Very few folks in the modern age need to worry about monetary poverty, but we still seem to live in constant fear of this.  So then time is most likely more important than money, but we all have all the time in the world (from our own perspective). 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: billsfan1_2000 on September 01, 2019, 08:50:11 AM

Hey all!  Long time lurker first time poster to this thread.  Congrats to all on your affluence. 

I am solidly in this cohort having just run the August 31 balances I am at a sporty $3.440M.  Not bad for an upstate New Yorker who grew up in a 1,000 sq ft home....

So anyway - let's start the discussion.....

- It is IMPOSSIBLE for a government to run trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see.....and run up a tab of over $22 trillion to this point;
- It is HIGHLY LIKELY a socialist will be elected president in 2020....and only ballon the problem even further;
- The dollar is likely to be under siege as a result.......

Apart from gold, silver, non dollar denominated investments, storing cash overseas......how are we protecting ourselves gang? 

I do NOT want to have my ER joy undermined by idiot politicians who are out of control......

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on September 01, 2019, 09:04:32 AM

I'm not sure there is a way legally to protect ourselves from the Government. All of your accounts/investments are required to be declared (over a certain limit) no matter where they are in the World.

I guess you could in theory have lots of little accounts all over the world, not sure if you have to report them in aggregate?

So whatever stupid scheme the Government comes up with we are going to be subject to the rules at the time.

I guess my default is.. As screwed up as we are in the US, almost everybody else is more screwed up than we are.. Like where else other than the US stock market is there to put your money to get a decent return?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on September 01, 2019, 10:33:08 AM

Quote from: lhamo on September 01, 2019, 09:22:57 AM

welcome out of lurkdom, @billsfan1_2000

We are already on page 33 of an ongoing discussion focused on the journey from 2-3 million in a general sense.   There are people here of many stripes, and different political and economic mindsets.  This might not be the right place to "start a discussion" in the way you have just done.   Starting your own thread on that topic might be a better strategy.

I agree it is better to take those concerns to a separate thread.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 01, 2019, 11:27:57 AM

Yeh - Buffalo man - I am sure you would get a lot of interest on another thread.  It would be an interesting discussion.

Most comments given on this thread have been pretty happy.  People here have done a good job to remind me that things are going well and there is a lot to look forward too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 02, 2019, 03:48:25 AM

Yea there have been discussion on part of you question of debt on other threads , I belong to this one because we dont really discuss politics to deep. Appreciate your concerns but politics just seem to ruin a good thread. Financially love to have ya hear!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on September 02, 2019, 08:51:43 AM

Agree, please move your political conversation to the Off Topic area @billsfan1_2000

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on September 02, 2019, 01:51:18 PM

The good news from the government perspective is that the interest rate on a 10 year Treasury bond is 1.5%

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 02, 2019, 07:06:35 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on September 02, 2019, 01:51:18 PM

The good news from the government perspective is that the interest rate on a 10 year Treasury bond is 1.5%

Tidbit - The Authors of "Your Money Or Your Life," used T Bills for their income.  Their return was 12% in an inflationary time.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-your-life/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-your-life/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 02, 2019, 10:42:04 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 02, 2019, 07:06:35 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on September 02, 2019, 01:51:18 PM

The good news from the government perspective is that the interest rate on a 10 year Treasury bond is 1.5%

Tidbit - The Authors of "Your Money Or Your Life," used T Bills for their income.  Their return was 12% in an inflationary time.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-your-life/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-your-life/)

Oh let there be no doubt that 1.5% nominal (who knows what that is for you 'real', since inflation is personal, especially depending on your healthcare, college education, and credit needs) sucks.  I'd be much more comfortable with 12% nominal and figuring out my own inflation impact.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on September 06, 2019, 11:10:31 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 02, 2019, 10:42:04 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 02, 2019, 07:06:35 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on September 02, 2019, 01:51:18 PM

The good news from the government perspective is that the interest rate on a 10 year Treasury bond is 1.5%

Tidbit - The Authors of "Your Money Or Your Life," used T Bills for their income.  Their return was 12% in an inflationary time.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-your-life/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-your-life/)

Oh let there be no doubt that 1.5% nominal (who knows what that is for you 'real', since inflation is personal, especially depending on your healthcare, college education, and credit needs) sucks.  I'd be much more comfortable with 12% nominal and figuring out my own inflation impact.

You bring up a really good point, so I bolded it.  Hearing some inflation number at xyz% can be useful or it could be meaningless.  What makes up that number?  Do you buy the things that make it up?  Perhaps the median price of a new house is in that number.  Ok....but for someone not buying a house, who cares?  Maybe cars jumped 30% because the volcano of Automobile-land blew its stack, shutting down supply.  If you don't expect to buy a car for 10 years....again....who cares?  It will matter if you're looking for a bank/CD/HYSA kinda account to park money and the rate goes down.

I guess just some food for thought.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on September 06, 2019, 11:27:48 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 06, 2019, 11:10:31 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 02, 2019, 10:42:04 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 02, 2019, 07:06:35 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on September 02, 2019, 01:51:18 PM

The good news from the government perspective is that the interest rate on a 10 year Treasury bond is 1.5%

Tidbit - The Authors of "Your Money Or Your Life," used T Bills for their income.  Their return was 12% in an inflationary time.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-your-life/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-your-life/)

Oh let there be no doubt that 1.5% nominal (who knows what that is for you 'real', since inflation is personal, especially depending on your healthcare, college education, and credit needs) sucks.  I'd be much more comfortable with 12% nominal and figuring out my own inflation impact.

You bring up a really good point, so I bolded it.  Hearing some inflation number at xyz% can be useful or it could be meaningless.  What makes up that number?  Do you buy the things that make it up?  Perhaps the median price of a new house is in that number.  Ok....but for someone not buying a house, who cares?  Maybe cars jumped 30% because the volcano of Automobile-land blew its stack, shutting down supply.  If you don't expect to buy a car for 10 years....again....who cares?  It will matter if you're looking for a bank/CD/HYSA kinda account to park money and the rate goes down.

I guess just some food for thought.

I can tell you what makes up a lot of the number- health care. Pharmacy inflation runs about 11% and medical 5% year over year. Unfortunately, you often don't know when you are going to be buying it and when you're not.
Sorry to be a downer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on September 06, 2019, 11:29:43 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 06, 2019, 11:10:31 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 02, 2019, 10:42:04 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 02, 2019, 07:06:35 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on September 02, 2019, 01:51:18 PM

The good news from the government perspective is that the interest rate on a 10 year Treasury bond is 1.5%

Tidbit - The Authors of "Your Money Or Your Life," used T Bills for their income.  Their return was 12% in an inflationary time.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-your-life/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-your-life/)

Oh let there be no doubt that 1.5% nominal (who knows what that is for you 'real', since inflation is personal, especially depending on your healthcare, college education, and credit needs) sucks.  I'd be much more comfortable with 12% nominal and figuring out my own inflation impact.

You bring up a really good point, so I bolded it.  Hearing some inflation number at xyz% can be useful or it could be meaningless.  What makes up that number?  Do you buy the things that make it up?  Perhaps the median price of a new house is in that number.  Ok....but for someone not buying a house, who cares?  Maybe cars jumped 30% because the volcano of Automobile-land blew its stack, shutting down supply.  If you don't expect to buy a car for 10 years....again....who cares?  It will matter if you're looking for a bank/CD/HYSA kinda account to park money and the rate goes down.

I guess just some food for thought.

this is an important part - when they post the inflation number it's comprised of all things....I think I read somewhere that groceries have gone up something like 10%....but my monthly average is around the same from last year to this, so either I don't buy the things that have gone up the most, or I've gotten good at shopping the sales (probably a combo of the two).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 08, 2019, 05:07:13 AM

Quote from: bluebelle on September 06, 2019, 11:29:43 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 06, 2019, 11:10:31 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 02, 2019, 10:42:04 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 02, 2019, 07:06:35 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on September 02, 2019, 01:51:18 PM

The good news from the government perspective is that the interest rate on a 10 year Treasury bond is 1.5%

Tidbit - The Authors of "Your Money Or Your Life," used T Bills for their income.  Their return was 12% in an inflationary time.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-your-life/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-your-life/)

Oh let there be no doubt that 1.5% nominal (who knows what that is for you 'real', since inflation is personal, especially depending on your healthcare, college education, and credit needs) sucks.  I'd be much more comfortable with 12% nominal and figuring out my own inflation impact.

You bring up a really good point, so I bolded it.  Hearing some inflation number at xyz% can be useful or it could be meaningless.  What makes up that number?  Do you buy the things that make it up?  Perhaps the median price of a new house is in that number.  Ok....but for someone not buying a house, who cares?  Maybe cars jumped 30% because the volcano of Automobile-land blew its stack, shutting down supply.  If you don't expect to buy a car for 10 years....again....who cares?  It will matter if you're looking for a bank/CD/HYSA kinda account to park money and the rate goes down.

I guess just some food for thought.

this is an important part - when they post the inflation number it's comprised of all things....I think I read somewhere that groceries have gone up something like 10%....but my monthly average is around the same from last year to this, so either I don't buy the things that have gone up the most, or I've gotten good at shopping the sales (probably a combo of the two).

I've found this to be true as well. Very large part of this is shipping costs have gone through the roof. Between the continuous cost of emission restrictions, driver shortages and now computerized logs its getting harder and harder for Trucking companies to run. I was in the business for nearly 30 years before I Fire'd and almost everyone I meet from the industry tells me I got out just in time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 08, 2019, 12:21:02 PM

Headed to the Smoky Mountains in a few hours.  Driving through the night and will spend the day tomorrow relaxing at the Fontana Dam Shelter / Village.   Tuesday I start my seven day hike north to Interstate 40.   Will I decide to FIRE somewhere on the AT and just keep going?   Maybe.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on September 08, 2019, 02:01:19 PM

Have a wonderful hike!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on September 08, 2019, 02:53:58 PM

Nice..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 08, 2019, 06:01:37 PM

After the hike take a look at Bill Bryson's book, "A Walk In The Woods."  You may be able to relate to it or at least laugh.

So, so many things to look forward to when you FIRE. 

When I was a kid, I believe retirement was explained to me as what you do when you are no longer able to work.  I guess this was taught by the same folks that taught me about trickle down economics and that dog mouths are cleaner than human mouths.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 08, 2019, 06:25:53 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 08, 2019, 06:01:37 PM

After the hike take a look at Bill Bryson's book, "A Walk In The Woods."  You may be able to relate to it or at least laugh.

So, so many things to look forward to when you FIRE. 

When I was a kid, I believe retirement was explained to me as what you do when you are no longer able to work.  I guess this was taught by the same folks that taught me about trickle down economics and that dog mouths are cleaner than human mouths.

I've read the book and watched the movie.  Very humorous and not all fiction.  I do hope to complete the whole 2175 miles or so in sections.  The Smokies are the only southern section I can do in cool temperatures right now.  I hope to have everything from the Smokies south completed by years end.  I've already done a bit.  There is also the Pinhoti Trail that I need to complete this winter.  There is one new Alabama section and the final Georgia section I'll need to finish it.

This hike is to jumpstart my bikepacking.  I've got a mountain bike all ready for offroad adventures.  I hope to do some trips as soon as cooler weather comes to the south.  I've got big plans for a 2,700 miles Canada to Mexico off-road bikepacking trip in 2021.  FIRE is coming.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 09, 2019, 05:38:42 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 08, 2019, 06:25:53 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 08, 2019, 06:01:37 PM

After the hike take a look at Bill Bryson's book, "A Walk In The Woods."  You may be able to relate to it or at least laugh.

So, so many things to look forward to when you FIRE. 

When I was a kid, I believe retirement was explained to me as what you do when you are no longer able to work.  I guess this was taught by the same folks that taught me about trickle down economics and that dog mouths are cleaner than human mouths.

I've read the book and watched the movie.  Very humorous and not all fiction.  I do hope to complete the whole 2175 miles or so in sections.  The Smokies are the only southern section I can do in cool temperatures right now.  I hope to have everything from the Smokies south completed by years end.  I've already done a bit.  There is also the Pinhoti Trail that I need to complete this winter.  There is one new Alabama section and the final Georgia section I'll need to finish it.

This hike is to jumpstart my bikepacking.  I've got a mountain bike all ready for offroad adventures.  I hope to do some trips as soon as cooler weather comes to the south.  I've got big plans for a 2,700 miles Canada to Mexico off-road bikepacking trip in 2021.  FIRE is coming.

Second that... I didnt read the book but saw the movie was pretty good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on September 09, 2019, 06:02:49 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 08, 2019, 06:25:53 PM

I've got big plans for a 2,700 miles Canada to Mexico off-road bikepacking trip in 2021.  FIRE is coming.

Can you share any more info about this?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 13, 2019, 06:47:53 PM

Ok.   So, I only hiked half the Smoky Mountains.   I did however climb from the low point at Fontana Dam all the way to the highest point of the AT.  I did 40 miles, about 30 miles in my boots blew out.  Duct tape lasted a few more miles.  The soles delaminated and once they were gone every rock was an ouchy.  Hitched a ride with some nice young Missouri people to Gatlinburg.   They dropped me at the NOC outdoor center where I was given a shower and offered ery reasonable shuttle service back to my car.  It was hot out there.  I was expecting much cooler temps.  I over- packed as usual and the heavy burden only added to the misery of the heat.   Looks like next May I'll try and finish the second half.  I have some other AT sections that I want to do to complete from the Smokies south.  Soon cooler temp s will come and hopefully I get in some multiday bike packing trips.  The heat suppressed my hunger and sweated off a good many pounds.  Overall a successful trip even though I didn't hit my planned mileage.  I'm wearing new boots from the NOC and have a full belly from a steak dinner.  Didn't have cell service for four days.  No checking the market or worries. Brand new personal high point says mint.  Life is good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 13, 2019, 10:52:50 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 13, 2019, 06:47:53 PM

-SNIP-  Life is good.

Yeh!  Hiking is one of the thngs to look forward too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: snowdog on September 14, 2019, 05:37:39 AM

Passed $2.8M this week.  Yay!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on September 14, 2019, 07:14:06 AM

Quote from: snowdog on September 14, 2019, 05:37:39 AM

Passed $2.8M this week.  Yay!

Congrats! What is the goal? Or are you already FI?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 15, 2019, 06:30:05 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 13, 2019, 06:47:53 PM

Ok.   So, I only hiked half the Smoky Mountains.   I did however climb from the low point at Fontana Dam all the way to the highest point of the AT.  I did 40 miles, about 30 miles in my boots blew out.  Duct tape lasted a few more miles.  The soles delaminated and once they were gone every rock was an ouchy.  Hitched a ride with some nice young Missouri people to Gatlinburg.   They dropped me at the NOC outdoor center where I was given a shower and offered ery reasonable shuttle service back to my car.  It was hot out there.  I was expecting much cooler temps.  I over- packed as usual and the heavy burden only added to the misery of the heat.   Looks like next May I'll try and finish the second half.  I have some other AT sections that I want to do to complete from the Smokies south.  Soon cooler temp s will come and hopefully I get in some multiday bike packing trips.  The heat suppressed my hunger and sweated off a good many pounds.  Overall a successful trip even though I didn't hit my planned mileage.  I'm wearing new boots from the NOC and have a full belly from a steak dinner.  Didn't have cell service for four days.  No checking the market or worries. Brand new personal high point says mint.  Life is good.

Thats awesome. Can you share start and stop point, how long it took you and whatever else. I am really interested.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 15, 2019, 09:58:45 AM

DH is putting 50% of his salary into his 401k for the rest of the year to max it out*. It's fun to watch our account balances grow. Typically, we're not adding so much and the total only rises and falls with the market. I'd kind of forgotten how that feels. We keep reaching new highs, even if the market isn't doing much of anything.

*DH has a Defined Benefit Pension,  so we typically only put 10% into his 401k. There is no matching, and we have already hit our number. We just had a big gain on a flip, and the taxman's bite is going to hurt, hence the diversion of income into the 401k.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on September 15, 2019, 10:51:19 AM

Good strategy @Dicey.

Of course whether you invest pre tax or not your NW still rises if you are not spending the income. It just rises faster if you are not paying tax on the money.. At least on paper it does..:)

Actually I should add out NW, we must be close to an all time high even with riding the market + dividends.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 15, 2019, 04:05:04 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 15, 2019, 06:30:05 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 13, 2019, 06:47:53 PM

Ok.   So, I only hiked half the Smoky Mountains.   I did however climb from the low point at Fontana Dam all the way to the highest point of the AT.  I did 40 miles, about 30 miles in my boots blew out.  Duct tape lasted a few more miles.  The soles delaminated and once they were gone every rock was an ouchy.  Hitched a ride with some nice young Missouri people to Gatlinburg.   They dropped me at the NOC outdoor center where I was given a shower and offered ery reasonable shuttle service back to my car.  It was hot out there.  I was expecting much cooler temps.  I over- packed as usual and the heavy burden only added to the misery of the heat.   Looks like next May I'll try and finish the second half.  I have some other AT sections that I want to do to complete from the Smokies south.  Soon cooler temp s will come and hopefully I get in some multiday bike packing trips.  The heat suppressed my hunger and sweated off a good many pounds.  Overall a successful trip even though I didn't hit my planned mileage.  I'm wearing new boots from the NOC and have a full belly from a steak dinner.  Didn't have cell service for four days.  No checking the market or worries. Brand new personal high point says mint.  Life is good.

Thats awesome. Can you share start and stop point, how long it took you and whatever else. I am really interested.

Sure.  I started at the Fontana Dam Shelter, trail mile 165.   I drove up and spent the night there Monday.   I toured the Fontana Dam and prepared for my hike.  The shelter there has full bathrooms complete with hot showers!   The shelter, being the off season was empty besides me.  It sleeps up to 24 with an awesome lake view.  Tuesday morning I began my hike crossing the Dam at trail 166.  Elevation 1700 feet above sea level, the lowest of my hike.  Looking up from the dam you can spot Shuckstack firetower on the high ridge above. I entered the Great Smokey Mountains NP just past the dam, trail mile 167.  Soon I scrambled up the ridge to the Shuckstack Firetower at 3890 feet elevation and trail mile 171.  I climbed the tower for views and pics.  It's not for those fearful of heights. It was time to go and my next stop would be for water for the night and next day at Ekaneetlee Gap, trail mile 176 and elevation 3842 feet.  Soon I was moving on towards my shelter for night one, Mollies Ridge Shelter, trail mile 177 and elevation 4586 feet.  Unfortunately in late summer the water source for Mollies Ridge was dry.  Day one 12 miles hiked and lots of elevation change.  Day two I bypassed Russell Field Shelter trail mile 180 and had a lunch stop at Spence Field Shelter trail mile 183 and elevation 4916 feet.   Soon I'd climb Thunderhead Mountain at trail mile 185 and elevation 5527 feet.  My sleep stop for night two would be Derrick Knob Shelter trail mile 189 and elevation 4882 feet.  Luckily there was a cold spring just below the shelter with excellent water.  Day three I was feeling the heat wave and wishing I'd hiked in October.   I hiked only 6 miles, to Silers Bald Shelter trail mile 189 and elevation 5453 feet.  There was another excellent cold spring just below the shelter.   Day 4, I set off to hike to the highest mountain on the AT at trail mile 200 and elevation 6667 feet.  Clingmans Dome was nice and cool with a bit of rain.  Tourists were grabbing rain gear and umbrellas, I was still sweating.   My boots being held with duct tape were busted and I bypassed my shelter for the night at Mount Collins Trail mile 203 and elevation 5962.  At Newfound Gap trail mile 207 and elevation 5045 feet I ended my hike.  I caught a ride with some nice young people to Gatlinburg on US Highway 441.  Still a successful hike and the northern half of the Smokies is being planned for May 2021.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 15, 2019, 07:26:42 PM

That reduced air pressure thing at heights can cause troubles with the body including sweating.

https://phc.amedd.army.mil/topics/discond/ai/Pages/Altitude-Effects-on-the-Human-Body.aspx (https://phc.amedd.army.mil/topics/discond/ai/Pages/Altitude-Effects-on-the-Human-Body.aspx)

I got a nasty headache a few years back when hiking at Mt. Rainier.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on September 16, 2019, 07:33:29 AM

You drank water out of a cold spring out in nature ?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 16, 2019, 09:13:49 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on September 16, 2019, 07:33:29 AM

You drank water out of a cold spring out in nature ?

Yep.  I did run it through a 0.10 micron Sawyer Squeeze filter first.  The mountains work like a huge water tank.  Last seasons snowmelt, as well as cold rain are insulated and isolated from the surface in the rocky, sandy strata.  It slowly percolates out through cold springs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on September 16, 2019, 01:12:36 PM

Wow !

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 26, 2019, 03:32:13 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 15, 2019, 04:05:04 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 15, 2019, 06:30:05 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 13, 2019, 06:47:53 PM

Ok.   So, I only hiked half the Smoky Mountains.   I did however climb from the low point at Fontana Dam all the way to the highest point of the AT.  I did 40 miles, about 30 miles in my boots blew out.  Duct tape lasted a few more miles.  The soles delaminated and once they were gone every rock was an ouchy.  Hitched a ride with some nice young Missouri people to Gatlinburg.   They dropped me at the NOC outdoor center where I was given a shower and offered ery reasonable shuttle service back to my car.  It was hot out there.  I was expecting much cooler temps.  I over- packed as usual and the heavy burden only added to the misery of the heat.   Looks like next May I'll try and finish the second half.  I have some other AT sections that I want to do to complete from the Smokies south.  Soon cooler temp s will come and hopefully I get in some multiday bike packing trips.  The heat suppressed my hunger and sweated off a good many pounds.  Overall a successful trip even though I didn't hit my planned mileage.  I'm wearing new boots from the NOC and have a full belly from a steak dinner.  Didn't have cell service for four days.  No checking the market or worries. Brand new personal high point says mint.  Life is good.

Thats awesome. Can you share start and stop point, how long it took you and whatever else. I am really interested.

Sure.  I started at the Fontana Dam Shelter, trail mile 165.   I drove up and spent the night there Monday.   I toured the Fontana Dam and prepared for my hike.  The shelter there has full bathrooms complete with hot showers!   The shelter, being the off season was empty besides me.  It sleeps up to 24 with an awesome lake view.  Tuesday morning I began my hike crossing the Dam at trail 166.  Elevation 1700 feet above sea level, the lowest of my hike.  Looking up from the dam you can spot Shuckstack firetower on the high ridge above. I entered the Great Smokey Mountains NP just past the dam, trail mile 167.  Soon I scrambled up the ridge to the Shuckstack Firetower at 3890 feet elevation and trail mile 171.  I climbed the tower for views and pics.  It's not for those fearful of heights. It was time to go and my next stop would be for water for the night and next day at Ekaneetlee Gap, trail mile 176 and elevation 3842 feet.  Soon I was moving on towards my shelter for night one, Mollies Ridge Shelter, trail mile 177 and elevation 4586 feet.  Unfortunately in late summer the water source for Mollies Ridge was dry.  Day one 12 miles hiked and lots of elevation change.  Day two I bypassed Russell Field Shelter trail mile 180 and had a lunch stop at Spence Field Shelter trail mile 183 and elevation 4916 feet.   Soon I'd climb Thunderhead Mountain at trail mile 185 and elevation 5527 feet.  My sleep stop for night two would be Derrick Knob Shelter trail mile 189 and elevation 4882 feet.  Luckily there was a cold spring just below the shelter with excellent water.  Day three I was feeling the heat wave and wishing I'd hiked in October.   I hiked only 6 miles, to Silers Bald Shelter trail mile 189 and elevation 5453 feet.  There was another excellent cold spring just below the shelter.   Day 4, I set off to hike to the highest mountain on the AT at trail mile 200 and elevation 6667 feet.  Clingmans Dome was nice and cool with a bit of rain.  Tourists were grabbing rain gear and umbrellas, I was still sweating.   My boots being held with duct tape were busted and I bypassed my shelter for the night at Mount Collins Trail mile 203 and elevation 5962.  At Newfound Gap trail mile 207 and elevation 5045 feet I ended my hike.  I caught a ride with some nice young people to Gatlinburg on US Highway 441.  Still a successful hike and the northern half of the Smokies is being planned for May 2021.

Really cool!! Sooo wanting to do this!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 26, 2019, 10:46:14 PM

Wow! Ten days of radio silence on this thread. Weird. What are y'all up to?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 26, 2019, 10:56:56 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 26, 2019, 10:46:14 PM

Wow! Ten days of radio silence on this thread. Weird. What are y'all up to?

Put in 72 hours at work since my vacation.  It's been awesome at work recently.   If I can keep recharged with vacations, I may never quit.  Trying to motivate myself to take the sailboat out this weekend.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on September 27, 2019, 01:41:31 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 26, 2019, 10:46:14 PM

Wow! Ten days of radio silence on this thread. Weird. What are y'all up to?

Well I’ve been in Serbia working with a NGO a little bit, and have been globetrotting with work. All rather exhausting.

I am really having trouble with the whole “how much is enough” thing.

DW wants to move back to Australia, which I had agreed to and had planned to FIRE.

Now I’m getting greedy...... aaarrrggghhhh.... contemplating FIRE is emotionally draining.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on September 27, 2019, 09:33:18 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 26, 2019, 10:46:14 PM

Wow! Ten days of radio silence on this thread. Weird. What are y'all up to?

Hah! Was just going to post an update. My startup gig is proving to be a lot of fun. We are located in a co-working space in Brooklyn shared by a number of startups including the one I am helping. Not WeWork I might add :-).

I'm by far one of the oldest people here. Some of the kids here are about my older daughter's age. Its a lot of fun listening to the conversations between the twenty-somethings working here. Thankfully, I don't have to go into the office every day - typically only twice a week so the commute is quite tolerable.

Even though the work is fun and I'm being paid a ridiculous amount, I think I will really done with the idea of work in general by next year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on September 27, 2019, 11:54:12 AM

I'm still here. Chugging away. Turns out that they weren't really trying to phase me out as I suspected. I was offered a CFO opportunity at the current employer. I was really tempted. But after thinking about it for awhile, I found a way to politely decline without giving away that I'm planning to quit in 8 months. So FIRE in May is still the plan. Still scary though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 03, 2019, 03:51:33 AM

Wow.  The market and thus my own portfolio has taken heavy losses.  Probably just the beginning of the next rollercoaster.   I wouldn't doubt to see my own accounts at least temporarily take a sub 2M dip again.
 Psychologically it will help drag my carcass into to work.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jengod on October 03, 2019, 10:07:38 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on September 27, 2019, 11:54:12 AM

I'm still here. Chugging away. Turns out that they weren't really trying to phase me out as I suspected. I was offered a CFO opportunity at the current employer. I was really tempted. But after thinking about it for awhile, I found a way to politely decline without giving away that I'm planning to quit in 8 months. So FIRE in May is still the plan. Still scary though.

Supercool from both angles, Bean

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 03, 2019, 07:49:47 PM

I'm finding myself increasingly challenged to stay motivated at work.  There is a lot to be proud of, but the BS level continues to increase.  Having enough to FIRE makes it hard to put up with, but I really want to Fat FIRE.  As much as I admire the concept, I'm really not very mustachian in a lot of ways.

How are others dealing with this?  I know @Bateaux seems to be in a similar boat, and maybe BeanCounter, too.  Are you still working for the financial security?  For the ego?  For the social connections?  Out of habit?  How do you know when enough is enough?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on October 03, 2019, 08:02:58 PM

This should help, @Taran Wanderer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqhmZmE1YjQ

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 03, 2019, 09:28:00 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 03, 2019, 07:49:47 PM

I'm finding myself increasingly challenged to stay motivated at work.  There is a lot to be proud of, but the BS level continues to increase.  Having enough to FIRE makes it hard to put up with, but I really want to Fat FIRE.  As much as I admire the concept, I'm really not very mustachian in a lot of ways.

How are others dealing with this?  I know @Bateaux seems to be in a similar boat, and maybe BeanCounter, too.  Are you still working for the financial security?  For the ego?  For the social connections?  Out of habit?  How do you know when enough is enough?

I quit back in '14 and was moderately "slightly porky" fired, then did a couple f contract gigs (mostly ego, but it was fun work too), but honestly I became fat FIRED* due to market gains alone.

*Some would argue my 1.5% WR rate last year (which should actually reduce as pensions kick in makes me "extremely obese" FIRED..

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on October 03, 2019, 09:28:53 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 15, 2017, 07:54:42 AM

So I am interested in stories from others and their plans going forward.

As someone who is in their 40s with $5m NW, the following is a link to my experiences Fat FIREing. In short, I already know that I have enough and FIRE taught me a bit about myself that I wouldn’t have learned otherwise

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f26/hello-from-canada-99808.html

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 03, 2019, 09:37:41 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on October 03, 2019, 08:02:58 PM

This should help, @Taran Wanderer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqhmZmE1YjQ

After watching that one, I automatically rolled in to this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddek3gQVt9Y which I liked even more!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 03, 2019, 10:11:23 PM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on October 03, 2019, 09:28:53 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 15, 2017, 07:54:42 AM

So I am interested in stories from others and their plans going forward.

As someone who is in their 40s with $5m NW, the following is a link to my experiences Fat FIREing. In short, I already know that I have enough and FIRE taught me a bit about myself that I wouldn’t have learned otherwise

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f26/hello-from-canada-99808.html

Thanks for sharing Nancy!  I've met folks that retired and then returned to the workforce after the initial excitement wore off.  They didn't need money, or maybe wanted a specific frivolous thing like a vacation home or RV, but other than in this forum, it's not a sin to go after what you think will be most fulfilling.  It's not like 'what is the meaning of life' has an answer.  It was very interesting to hear more about what you learned about yourself in ER! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 04, 2019, 04:21:30 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 03, 2019, 10:11:23 PM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on October 03, 2019, 09:28:53 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 15, 2017, 07:54:42 AM

So I am interested in stories from others and their plans going forward.

As someone who is in their 40s with $5m NW, the following is a link to my experiences Fat FIREing. In short, I already know that I have enough and FIRE taught me a bit about myself that I wouldn’t have learned otherwise

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f26/hello-from-canada-99808.html

Thanks for sharing Nancy!  I've met folks that retired and then returned to the workforce after the initial excitement wore off.  They didn't need money, or maybe wanted a specific frivolous thing like a vacation home or RV, but other than in this forum, it's not a sin to go after what you think will be most fulfilling.  It's not like 'what is the meaning of life' has an answer.  It was very interesting to hear more about what you learned about yourself in ER!

I agree +1 with Escape..... Alot of what you wrote I can relate with feeling at times and appreciate your honesty!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 04, 2019, 06:24:04 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 03, 2019, 07:49:47 PM

I'm finding myself increasingly challenged to stay motivated at work.  There is a lot to be proud of, but the BS level continues to increase.  Having enough to FIRE makes it hard to put up with, but I really want to Fat FIRE.  As much as I admire the concept, I'm really not very mustachian in a lot of ways.

How are others dealing with this?  I know @Bateaux seems to be in a similar boat, and maybe BeanCounter, too.  Are you still working for the financial security?  For the ego?  For the social connections?  Out of habit?  How do you know when enough is enough?

My situation was quite similar to yours. But earlier this year, mostly thanks to the encouragement from this group, I walked away from a (really) well-paying but soul-sucking job at a megacorp. I will always be thankful to @lhamo for questioning me - something on the lines of  "then why are you still working?"

I am currently helping out a tech startup and really enjoying myself. I get to work a group of smart people in a hot field. I know for sure I'll be done for good by this time next year. I think of this gig as a half-way house to get myself completely out of the rat race.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Mmm_Donuts on October 04, 2019, 06:43:13 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on October 04, 2019, 06:24:04 AM

I know @Bateaux seems to be in a similar boat

*snicker*

Sorry. Couldn't help it.

In seriousness - I can relate. Every little irritation of a political nature makes me want to march in to my manager's office and quit. We have FU$ but have not hit our number yet so for now I am restraining myself. So far, for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 04, 2019, 06:58:01 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 03, 2019, 09:37:41 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on October 03, 2019, 08:02:58 PM

This should help, @Taran Wanderer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqhmZmE1YjQ

After watching that one, I automatically rolled in to this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddek3gQVt9Y which I liked even more!

I watched the first one, which was quite good. When I opened the second one, I decided I was too tired to get through it. I paused it, minimized the screen so I could find it easily in the morning, and went to bed. In the middle of the night, I woke up to a woman's voice speaking loudly about fertility treatments. WTF? I went to the computer, but the screen was locked. Worse, it wanted my husband's password! Ack! I know it, but recalling to at 1:30 am was tricky. My brain kept shouting shut up, shut UP! to the woman talking about fertility injections and treatment protocol. Of course, DH slept through the whole thing. I'm guessing she was only telling the back story...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 04, 2019, 08:20:23 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 03, 2019, 07:49:47 PM

I'm finding myself increasingly challenged to stay motivated at work.  There is a lot to be proud of, but the BS level continues to increase.  Having enough to FIRE makes it hard to put up with, but I really want to Fat FIRE.  As much as I admire the concept, I'm really not very mustachian in a lot of ways.

How are others dealing with this?  I know @Bateaux seems to be in a similar boat, and maybe BeanCounter, too.  Are you still working for the financial security?  For the ego?  For the social connections?  Out of habit?  How do you know when enough is enough?

My OMYx2 (or 3) started out as being driven by additional financial security. We still have elementary aged kids. We need health insurance and the price of that for a family of four is no joke. The kids are in private school and do various expensive activities that I am unwilling to say no to (band, Taekwondo, scouts etc) So when we hit our first $1M it didn't seem like enough. And though I put up a lot of BS at work, I'm highly compensated for the effort I put in. So it seemed prudent to stay. But shortly after we hit $1M invested, my last parent died. I am an only child. This more than doubled our net worth. But more than anything my mothers death put me into a bit of an existential crisis. So I continued to work just for the routine of it, the normalcy. For the security of having to get up and march myself into the office. It's been almost two years and I've spent the last year rebuilding a cash reserve from a home remodel we did and trying to figure out what exactly I want to do with myself if I quit. And how I feel about the risk of leaving.
This thread actually helped me the most with the anxiety about the risk of leaving my career. These internet friends helped me to see that it's very likely we will be just fine, but if we are ok with being flexible we can make anything work.
As for the what to do with myself when I leave. Much of that is around ego. I want to stay home with my kids and enjoy the rest of their years at home, relaxed and available. But I've also never seen myself as a SAHM. And what will I do while they are in school all day? What if I want to return to my career after they go to college? I think the answer to this is to continue some part time work. Preferably working for myself. I have been starting to explore looking for clients that need a "part time CFO/controller".
Anyway as I've slowly figured this stuff out it really has decreased my tolerance for work politics and BS. And when you're 41 with $2.5M of invested assets, having watched both of your parents die young- WORK REALLY SEEMS MEANINGLESS. But that doesn't change the feelings around walking away. It will be hard. But I'm still sticking to the plan for May. And I do think I need to find some part time work for myself. We will see how that works out.
Best of luck @Taran Wanderer. Know that ALL of your feelings around FIRE are very valid and others feel it too. I think it's good to keep posting about it as it does help you and others to work through it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 04, 2019, 08:28:52 AM

I suspect it won't be nearly as hard as you're anticipating...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 04, 2019, 11:16:23 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 04, 2019, 08:20:23 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 03, 2019, 07:49:47 PM

I'm finding myself increasingly challenged to stay motivated at work.  There is a lot to be proud of, but the BS level continues to increase.  Having enough to FIRE makes it hard to put up with, but I really want to Fat FIRE.  As much as I admire the concept, I'm really not very mustachian in a lot of ways.

How are others dealing with this?  I know @Bateaux seems to be in a similar boat, and maybe BeanCounter, too.  Are you still working for the financial security?  For the ego?  For the social connections?  Out of habit?  How do you know when enough is enough?

My OMYx2 (or 3) started out as being driven by additional financial security. We still have elementary aged kids. We need health insurance and the price of that for a family of four is no joke. The kids are in private school and do various expensive activities that I am unwilling to say no to (band, Taekwondo, scouts etc) So when we hit our first $1M it didn't seem like enough. And though I put up a lot of BS at work, I'm highly compensated for the effort I put in. So it seemed prudent to stay. But shortly after we hit $1M invested, my last parent died. I am an only child. This more than doubled our net worth. But more than anything my mothers death put me into a bit of an existential crisis. So I continued to work just for the routine of it, the normalcy. For the security of having to get up and march myself into the office. It's been almost two years and I've spent the last year rebuilding a cash reserve from a home remodel we did and trying to figure out what exactly I want to do with myself if I quit. And how I feel about the risk of leaving.
This thread actually helped me the most with the anxiety about the risk of leaving my career. These internet friends helped me to see that it's very likely we will be just fine, but if we are ok with being flexible we can make anything work.
As for the what to do with myself when I leave. Much of that is around ego. I want to stay home with my kids and enjoy the rest of their years at home, relaxed and available. But I've also never seen myself as a SAHM. And what will I do while they are in school all day? What if I want to return to my career after they go to college? I think the answer to this is to continue some part time work. Preferably working for myself. I have been starting to explore looking for clients that need a "part time CFO/controller".
Anyway as I've slowly figured this stuff out it really has decreased my tolerance for work politics and BS. And when you're 41 with $2.5M of invested assets, having watched both of your parents die young- WORK REALLY SEEMS MEANINGLESS. But that doesn't change the feelings around walking away. It will be hard. But I'm still sticking to the plan for May. And I do think I need to find some part time work for myself. We will see how that works out.
Best of luck @Taran Wanderer. Know that ALL of your feelings around FIRE are very valid and others feel it too. I think it's good to keep posting about it as it does help you and others to work through it.

Glad to see the thread liven up bit.  Haven't heard much from you all lately.
So sorry to hear about the loss of your parents, Beancounter.  My wife lost her mom at too early an age.  We all miss her sweet life dearly.   She loved her family so much. 
Get out when you safely can.  Don't let my paranoia influence you.  I'm not going to quit till the first quarter of 2021.  I'll have 9 weeks off next year and that is a lot of stress relief.  I've still got a lot of expenses to put into the Florida house.  Air-conditioning needs replacing as soon as we see cooler weather.  I also need to build an outdoor kitchen and refurbish the pool area.   I need to buy a decent vehicle as well.  That's easily a year of things to get done while income can provide for them.   Minor stuff I'm pretty handy with and can do post FIRE.   I've got huge adventure plans for 2021 that can't be postponed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 04, 2019, 11:19:07 AM

Quote from: Mmm_Donuts on October 04, 2019, 06:43:13 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on October 04, 2019, 06:24:04 AM

I know @Bateaux seems to be in a similar boat

*snicker*

Sorry. Couldn't help it.

In seriousness - I can relate. Every little irritation of a political nature makes me want to march in to my manager's office and quit. We have FU$ but have not hit our number yet so for now I am restraining myself. So far, for now.

If it's my boat, bring a bail bucket!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 05, 2019, 11:58:46 AM

Well folks - my end may be coming soon.

My project ends in mid to late October and nothing seems to be on the horizon.  E-mails have been sent from on high about shutting finances down.  Rumors of layoffs have emerged.

Might be a good thing.  I was going to quit at the end of the year.  However, I have also thought why not work a few more months into next year to help pay for a replacement vehicle and some toys.

I've been in the solid middle this race now with things very slowly creeping upwards for a bit now.  Hey!  To a poor boy like me it seems like a heck of a lot of money.  It doesn't seem real.  It's numbers.  It's like Monopoly money.

House is paid for, car is paid for and bills are paid up.

Am I suffering from the dreaded OMY syndrome?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 05, 2019, 12:07:09 PM

Quote from: pecunia on October 05, 2019, 11:58:46 AM

Well folks - my end may be coming soon.

My project ends in mid to late October and nothing seems to be on the horizon.  E-mails have been sent from on high about shutting finances down.  Rumors of layoffs have emerged.

Might be a good thing.  I was going to quit at the end of the year.  However, I have also thought why not work a few more months into next year to help pay for a replacement vehicle and some toys.

I've been in the solid middle this race now with things very slowly creeping upwards for a bit now.  Hey!  To a poor boy like me it seems like a heck of a lot of money.  It doesn't seem real.  It's numbers.  It's like Monopoly money.

House is paid for, car is paid for and bills are paid up.

Am I suffering from the dreaded OMY syndrome?

If you're in this club,  especially if you're not counting the value of your home, the answer could well be YES!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 05, 2019, 02:20:53 PM

Quote from: Dicey on October 05, 2019, 12:07:09 PM

Quote from: pecunia on October 05, 2019, 11:58:46 AM

Well folks - my end may be coming soon.

My project ends in mid to late October and nothing seems to be on the horizon.  E-mails have been sent from on high about shutting finances down.  Rumors of layoffs have emerged.

Might be a good thing.  I was going to quit at the end of the year.  However, I have also thought why not work a few more months into next year to help pay for a replacement vehicle and some toys.

I've been in the solid middle this race now with things very slowly creeping upwards for a bit now.  Hey!  To a poor boy like me it seems like a heck of a lot of money.  It doesn't seem real.  It's numbers.  It's like Monopoly money.

House is paid for, car is paid for and bills are paid up.

Am I suffering from the dreaded OMY syndrome?

If you're in this club,  especially if you're not counting the value of your home, the answer could well be YES!

Jump!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 05, 2019, 04:19:52 PM

Quote from: pecunia on October 05, 2019, 11:58:46 AM

Well folks - my end may be coming soon.

My project ends in mid to late October and nothing seems to be on the horizon.  E-mails have been sent from on high about shutting finances down.  Rumors of layoffs have emerged.

Might be a good thing.  I was going to quit at the end of the year.  However, I have also thought why not work a few more months into next year to help pay for a replacement vehicle and some toys.

I've been in the solid middle this race now with things very slowly creeping upwards for a bit now.  Hey!  To a poor boy like me it seems like a heck of a lot of money.  It doesn't seem real.  It's numbers.  It's like Monopoly money.

House is paid for, car is paid for and bills are paid up.

Am I suffering from the dreaded OMY syndrome?

Its only dreaded if you hate what you're doing while working the OMY. In my case I found a contract gig that was overpaid for what it was and a ST of OT due to the international travel.

It was hard to hate that...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on October 07, 2019, 11:24:25 AM

... and just like that the doubt in my head is gone and the next step is crystal clear...

I will FIRE in May!

We probably have “enough”,
probably more than enough,
but I have always kept wondering whether having yet a little more, or maybe a lot more might be nice.

But I’ve realised that with our fairly comfortable NW that it really wouldn’t take much for our net worth to keep growing whilst I don’t work or work minimally. The stash will just feed on itself every time it gets a small chance - such as We don’t draw down on it for a few months because some unexpected income flows our way which I suspect will happen

We don’t really have any rational reason anymore to be living 15,000kms from home earning a big expat salary. We have seen the world and secured our financial future. This part of our life has served its purpose.

At this point We may as well be back home with family.

Less than 8 months to go...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 07, 2019, 12:26:27 PM

@itchyfeet Well done! You will "sell in May and go away"..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 07, 2019, 12:45:55 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on October 07, 2019, 11:24:25 AM

... and just like that the doubt in my head is gone and the next step is crystal clear...

I will FIRE in May!

We probably have “enough”,
probably more than enough,
but I have always kept wondering whether having yet a little more, or maybe a lot more might be nice.

But I’ve realised that with our fairly comfortable NW that it really wouldn’t take much for our net worth to keep growing whilst I don’t work or work minimally. The stash will just feed on itself every time it gets a small chance - such as We don’t draw down on it for a few months because some unexpected income flows our way which I suspect will happen

We don’t really have any rational reason anymore to be living 15,000kms from home earning a big expat salary. We have seen the world and secured our financial future. This part of our life has served its purpose.

At this point We may as well be back home with family.

Less than 8 months to go...

 Congrats IF!  Enjoy your freedom.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on October 07, 2019, 08:31:39 PM

And just like that the motor blower stopped working on my nearly 11 year old 97% efficient York furnace.
Do I pay $810 to repair this, or do I buy a new furnace altogether, which would cost at least $3500 ?
If I repair the old furnace am I just going to have to make another repair to it in 2 years for another large amount, or will it be trouble free for a few years?
and if I buy a new furnace should I go ahead and upgrade my central air which has a SEER efficiency of 10 to a new central air SEER efficiency of 16?

I'm glad I'm still working part time, cause it's looking like I'll be spending money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 07, 2019, 08:45:49 PM

wait..

1) I have a York furnace that I just pulled out of my house that was perfect just too big.. if the sizes match I could sell/ship it to you. Would take 20 minutes to swap it out... Maybe just swap the motor? I think mine is a half horse power from memory.

2) Are you sure its not just the motor capacitor has crapped out? They are cheap/easy fix.

Either way.. no this is a simple DIY fix.

Let me know by PM if you're up to fixing this yourself... I just bought a whole new furnace for $800 and DIY installed it.

To replace the motor (the capacitor just plugs into two wires coming from the motor) its an easy job..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3TxcnCkd18

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 07, 2019, 10:49:07 PM

Exflyboy, I love this...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 07, 2019, 10:54:24 PM

Yeah simple job.. I am finding new replacement motors on Amazon for between $100 and 200 bucks. Capacitors are like $10.

I don't know if the capacitor has been swapped but it makes sense to do that first then directly connect the motor to the mains power.. jut to make sure the motor is in fact dead.

No freaking way I would consider replacing a whole furnace for something as simple as a fan motor...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 08, 2019, 02:28:10 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 07, 2019, 10:54:24 PM

Yeah simple job.. I am finding new replacement motors on Amazon for between $100 and 200 bucks. Capacitors are like $10.

I don't know if the capacitor has been swapped but it makes sense to do that first then directly connect the motor to the mains power.. jut to make sure the motor is in fact dead.

No freaking way I would consider replacing a whole furnace for something as simple as a fan motor...:)

I have a 24 year old Lenox pulse furnace in my house. Its still working fine after all these years. It uses an unusual pulse combustion method which is super efficient but it does sound like a two-stroke motorbike when its running :-)

About 10 years ago, I had to replace the blower motor because the bearings just completely seized up. But the cost of motor replacement was only about $250 - I have saved every receipt for major repairs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 08, 2019, 04:02:06 AM

Itchy..You will feel at times you wonder if you have enough even after you Fire BUT those feelings usually pass quick once you think of the alternative!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: snowdog on October 08, 2019, 07:05:05 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 03, 2019, 07:49:47 PM

I'm finding myself increasingly challenged to stay motivated at work.  There is a lot to be proud of, but the BS level continues to increase.  Having enough to FIRE makes it hard to put up with, but I really want to Fat FIRE.  As much as I admire the concept, I'm really not very mustachian in a lot of ways.

How are others dealing with this?  I know @Bateaux seems to be in a similar boat, and maybe BeanCounter, too.  Are you still working for the financial security?  For the ego?  For the social connections?  Out of habit?  How do you know when enough is enough?

I can totally relate to this.  I made the decision to pull the plug last December and just got out 2 weeks ago.  My prior posts describe my journey.  My job was extremely demanding and I thoroughly enjoyed the challenge up until I passed our number.  After moving the goalposts a few times and continuing to see our balances climb, my loss of motivation was palpable.  Almost like a tire with a leak...each day I felt less and less motivation and I realized how important a factor that was in performing my role.  What got me off the dime was when I realized that at some level enough is never enough.  That is a dangerous trap that can cost you many precious years if your not careful.  I think that if you have a couple of levels of cushion built into your plan then this really helps overcome the psychological fear that you will run out of money.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 08, 2019, 09:12:57 PM

The big question is, "What is the right number?"  We could probably FIRE now, but what about health care, college for the kids, etc. etc.?  Or I could FIRE because DW really likes what she does and that would take care of health care.  The kids are bright, so college will probably take care of itself, but what if [insert emergency or life change here]?  The worst case is that one or both of us could go back to work part-time or full-time doing something completely different but making enough to get by, but how would not having our current positions impact our ability to impact our communities?  Plus... money!!!  Did I mention money anxiety??

First world problems...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 08, 2019, 10:13:00 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 08, 2019, 09:12:57 PM

The big question is, "What is the right number?"  We could probably FIRE now, but what about health care, college for the kids, etc. etc.?  Or I could FIRE because DW really likes what she does and that would take care of health care.  The kids are bright, so college will probably take care of itself, but what if [insert emergency or life change here]?  The worst case is that one or both of us could go back to work part-time or full-time doing something completely different but making enough to get by, but how would not having our current positions impact our ability to impact our communities?  Plus... money!!!  Did I mention money anxiety??

First world problems...

I totally get this.. In fact I really didn't know what ur pensions would be worth until well after I quit. Since that time our investments have doubled and out WR was 1.5% last year.. And our pension havent even kicked in yet. When they do we will have a positive savings rate in RE!!!

I think its fair to say that we will have some SIGNIFICANT tax issues come RMD time!

We definitely over saved.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 09, 2019, 02:26:45 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 08, 2019, 09:12:57 PM

etc.?  Or I could FIRE because DW really likes what she does and that would take care of health care.  The kids are bright, so college will probably take care of itself, but what if [insert emergency or life change here]?  The worst case is that one or both of us could go back to

I hate to say this but it (ie kids college) will probably not take care of itself. I did not really start relaxing until I had enough reserves put away to cover my kids college costs. I don't include money saved for college in my net worth just to enforce this.

On the other hand I know that something has to change in the long run - higher education prices are unsustainable. But my younger daughter will be off to college in a couple of years so I don't have the luxury of waiting for the long run :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 09, 2019, 04:15:13 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on October 09, 2019, 02:26:45 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 08, 2019, 09:12:57 PM

etc.?  Or I could FIRE because DW really likes what she does and that would take care of health care.  The kids are bright, so college will probably take care of itself, but what if [insert emergency or life change here]?  The worst case is that one or both of us could go back to

I hate to say this but it (ie kids college) will probably not take care of itself. I did not really start relaxing until I had enough reserves put away to cover my kids college costs. I don't include money saved for college in my net worth just to enforce this.

On the other hand I know that something has to change in the long run - higher education prices are unsustainable. But my younger daughter will be off to college in a couple of years so I don't have the luxury of waiting for the long run :-)

I had 4 at home 4.5 years ago when I fired and now 2 in college and two at home still. Fotunately one got 100 % ride and the other did but walked away from it and has two years left and is paying for it but were trying to help but were still adding to the younger ones 401ks. But that has come about only because of the market rise. We too put it in a hidden account on mint so its money spent each month. Thing about college is were of the opinion the kids have to have some skin in the game and it costs more than you think even if they get scholarships. The costs do keep going up and when is enough enough but dont let it keep you from being fire'd. I know its easier said then done but if its important to keep paying for it then thats what a side gig would be good for.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: snowdog on October 09, 2019, 07:05:09 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 08, 2019, 09:12:57 PM

The big question is, "What is the right number?"  We could probably FIRE now, but what about health care, college for the kids, etc. etc.?  Or I could FIRE because DW really likes what she does and that would take care of health care.  The kids are bright, so college will probably take care of itself, but what if [insert emergency or life change here]?  The worst case is that one or both of us could go back to work part-time or full-time doing something completely different but making enough to get by, but how would not having our current positions impact our ability to impact our communities?  Plus... money!!!  Did I mention money anxiety??

First world problems...

I totally get these concerns.  While I'm in a bit of a different position as at 58 I'm older than you (I'm guessing), plus our 2 kids are out of college and off of the payroll.  That being said I still had many of the same worries...what if a kid backslides and needs our support, healthcare, wife gets sick (she is a cancer survivor), etc.  It never ends.  Just be aware that the line between thinking "enough is enough", and "more is never enough" can be very thin.  At 58 I just placed more value on time as I have less of it ahead of me.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 09, 2019, 07:32:02 AM

I've always been skeptical about FIRE because of having two kids. There is so much that we are responsible for (healthcare, education, etc) that we still can't fully quantify the cost of. I suppose this will get easier as they get older, but for the last few years we think we are working on one budget and then someone needs something or wants to try something that throws the whole budget off. This is why we decided that at least one of us would keep working. My DH also feels strongly that our children should see him working. I don't necessarily agree, but he needs to do what he is most comfortable with. His job should, if nothing changes, provide them with tuition at a decent state university. So the one big sacrifice for the kids may be that they don't get to choose the school they attend. They will have to go where Dad earned tuition remission.
As for me- 7 months and two weeks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 09, 2019, 01:31:50 PM

@BeanCounter - not that you're counting down or anything. ;-) Love it!

We are pushing close to $3M (this does include our primary residence value, because we don't plan to live in such an incredibly HCOL when FIREd). It feels really crazy

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 09, 2019, 01:56:22 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 09, 2019, 01:31:50 PM

@BeanCounter - not that you're counting down or anything. ;-) Love it!

We are pushing close to $3M (this does include our primary residence value, because we don't plan to live in such an incredibly HCOL when FIREd). It feels really crazy

That IS crazy.. But we like crazy,..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 09, 2019, 02:38:41 PM

So as soon as I posted this this morning DH calls and tells me about some crazy shit that's going down at his work (again). Which will result in a complete leadership change and could (but may not) result in him losing his job. Which makes me feel anxious about leaving mine. Because- insurance for a family of four is essentially another mortgage. UGH. Got to stick to the plan.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 09, 2019, 04:23:35 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 09, 2019, 02:38:41 PM

So as soon as I posted this this morning DH calls and tells me about some crazy shit that's going down at his work (again). Which will result in a complete leadership change and could (but may not) result in him losing his job. Which makes me feel anxious about leaving mine. Because- insurance for a family of four is essentially another mortgage. UGH. Got to stick to the plan.

A lot depends on your individual circumstances of course but for us as a couple we spend just over $50k/year and our ACA Bronze plan costs us $8.38 per month.

If you don't thoroughly understand the ACA it might be worth delving into as it may slay some of those demons perhaps?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 09, 2019, 04:32:54 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 09, 2019, 04:23:35 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 09, 2019, 02:38:41 PM

So as soon as I posted this this morning DH calls and tells me about some crazy shit that's going down at his work (again). Which will result in a complete leadership change and could (but may not) result in him losing his job. Which makes me feel anxious about leaving mine. Because- insurance for a family of four is essentially another mortgage. UGH. Got to stick to the plan.

A lot depends on your individual circumstances of course but for us as a couple we spend just over $50k/year and our ACA Bronze plan costs us $8.38 per month.

If you don't thoroughly understand the ACA it might be worth delving into as it may slay some of those demons perhaps?

I do need to look into it more. I just assumed that if we were shopping for a plan in 2020 our rates would be based on 2019’s 1040? I’ve got a years worth of cash built up to pull from in FIRE that would not show as taxable income for the next year, but for the first year I don’t think there would be any way to get subsidies.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 09, 2019, 04:47:35 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 09, 2019, 04:32:54 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 09, 2019, 04:23:35 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 09, 2019, 02:38:41 PM

So as soon as I posted this this morning DH calls and tells me about some crazy shit that's going down at his work (again). Which will result in a complete leadership change and could (but may not) result in him losing his job. Which makes me feel anxious about leaving mine. Because- insurance for a family of four is essentially another mortgage. UGH. Got to stick to the plan.

A lot depends on your individual circumstances of course but for us as a couple we spend just over $50k/year and our ACA Bronze plan costs us $8.38 per month.

If you don't thoroughly understand the ACA it might be worth delving into as it may slay some of those demons perhaps?

I do need to look into it more. I just assumed that if we were shopping for a plan in 2020 our rates would be based on 2019’s 1040? I’ve got a years worth of cash built up to pull from in FIRE that would not show as taxable income for the next year, but for the first year I don’t think there would be any way to get subsidies.

Form memory (its been 4 years since we went onto it) you estimate your income for 2021 when you apply.. In that case you would get the subsidy upfront.

Losing (or even self quitting a job) mid year allows you to join the ACA for that year.

Even if you didn't get the subsidy upfront, they would give it to you when you reconcile your taxes for 2020.. So at worse you will have to prepay for 1 year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 09, 2019, 04:55:33 PM

Here you it says to estimate your income.

https://www.healthcare.gov/unemployed/coverage/

Its a non issue, as long as you know how to play the subsidy game.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 09, 2019, 06:57:19 PM

The reverse is also true.  If you aren't working and getting the subsidy and then get a good paying job, you'll have to pay back the subsidy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 10, 2019, 02:49:24 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 09, 2019, 04:23:35 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 09, 2019, 02:38:41 PM

So as soon as I posted this this morning DH calls and tells me about some crazy shit that's going down at his work (again). Which will result in a complete leadership change and could (but may not) result in him losing his job. Which makes me feel anxious about leaving mine. Because- insurance for a family of four is essentially another mortgage. UGH. Got to stick to the plan.

A lot depends on your individual circumstances of course but for us as a couple we spend just over $50k/year and our ACA Bronze plan costs us $8.38 per month.

If you don't thoroughly understand the ACA it might be worth delving into as it may slay some of those demons perhaps?

$8.38 a month WOW.. Last time I checked it was over 3k for us which Is why my DW found /made a deal with a company to get a job she loves at least for benefits. Thats awesome.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 10, 2019, 07:01:00 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 09, 2019, 04:55:33 PM

Here you it says to estimate your income.

https://www.healthcare.gov/unemployed/coverage/

Its a non issue, as long as you know how to play the subsidy game.

Thanks for posting this @Exflyboy. I spent a little time playing around with it. Good news- there are more choices than I thought, and I feel comfortable with the coverage. Cost is interesting. I know at a minimum we will have an income of about $35k that I can't manipulate- that's an estimate for dividends, inherited IRA distributions and trust distribution. If I put $35k in for the income estimate it tells me we would be eligible for CHIP or Medicaid. I would not be comfortable accepting that. So I put in $40k and it gave me $68 per month for a high deductible silver plan or $150 a month for silver. If I put $55k a year in for the income estimate it gives me $148 a month for bronze and $570 for silver.
It ain't $8 bucks a month but it seems doable. Looks like having a large cash reserve will come in handy because we can pull from that to avoid creating more taxable income each year.
So I'm comforted by this, but I still think it's best for one of us to stay employed with insurance if possible until the kids have insurance.
The other thought I had is that this may mean it makes even more sense for me to set up my own business to do a small amount of tax and bookkeeping work because I could run this through the business as an expense. I need to research this further as I haven't looked into it since all the tax changes of 2018. I believe its actually a personal deduction not a business deduction.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 10, 2019, 09:04:19 AM

So I calculated our expenses for Aug and September and added them to my tracking. I've been tracking expenses monthly since the beginning of the year when we really started to talk about my quit date. I added a placeholder of $150 a month for insurance and yeah, I don't need to worry about this. We'll be fine, even if neither of us are working.
I love math.
Even more than math, I love hiking. Which I will be able to do a lot more of WHEN I'M NO LONGER WORKING!!!!!
Thanks guys. This thread has been really helpful for me. There isn't anybody IRL I can talk to about this. Except DH and he's got enough on his plate and he still thinks he wants to keep working until they tell him to go.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 10, 2019, 09:22:10 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 09, 2019, 04:23:35 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 09, 2019, 02:38:41 PM

So as soon as I posted this this morning DH calls and tells me about some crazy shit that's going down at his work (again). Which will result in a complete leadership change and could (but may not) result in him losing his job. Which makes me feel anxious about leaving mine. Because- insurance for a family of four is essentially another mortgage. UGH. Got to stick to the plan.

A lot depends on your individual circumstances of course but for us as a couple we spend just over $50k/year and our ACA Bronze plan costs us $8.38 per month.

If you don't thoroughly understand the ACA it might be worth delving into as it may slay some of those demons perhaps?

Paging @lhamo, another resident expert on this topic.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 10, 2019, 12:43:27 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 10, 2019, 09:04:19 AM

So I calculated our expenses for Aug and September and added them to my tracking. I've been tracking expenses monthly since the beginning of the year when we really started to talk about my quit date. I added a placeholder of $150 a month for insurance and yeah, I don't need to worry about this. We'll be fine, even if neither of us are working.
I love math.
Even more than math, I love hiking. Which I will be able to do a lot more of WHEN I'M NO LONGER WORKING!!!!!
Thanks guys. This thread has been really helpful for me. There isn't anybody IRL I can talk to about this. Except DH and he's got enough on his plate and he still thinks he wants to keep working until they tell him to go.

Hope it all works out.  Most of all , happy hiking.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 10, 2019, 08:43:37 PM

@BeanCounter Remember also that if you select a high deductible plan you can reduce your income by contributing to an HSA. If you have any real W2 income you can also deduct that by contributing tp 401k/Trad IRA's.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 14, 2019, 06:35:12 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 10, 2019, 08:43:37 PM

@BeanCounter Remember also that if you select a high deductible plan you can reduce your income by contributing to an HSA. If you have any real W2 income you can also deduct that by contributing tp 401k/Trad IRA's.

Thank you! Did some reading this weekend and since it's based on MAGI it's much better than I thought. Deducting premiums from self employed income looks harder than expected since you have to itemize and have to reach the 7.5% of income. With the subsidy it doesn't look like that would work out, but it's an odd circular calculation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 16, 2019, 10:29:30 PM

Thinking of talking to Vanguard about using their professional advisory services.   Anybody have experience with Vanguard professional services?  Is it worth 0.30 percent?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on October 17, 2019, 01:45:27 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 09, 2019, 04:47:35 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 09, 2019, 04:32:54 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 09, 2019, 04:23:35 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 09, 2019, 02:38:41 PM

So as soon as I posted this this morning DH calls and tells me about some crazy shit that's going down at his work (again). Which will result in a complete leadership change and could (but may not) result in him losing his job. Which makes me feel anxious about leaving mine. Because- insurance for a family of four is essentially another mortgage. UGH. Got to stick to the plan.

A lot depends on your individual circumstances of course but for us as a couple we spend just over $50k/year and our ACA Bronze plan costs us $8.38 per month.

If you don't thoroughly understand the ACA it might be worth delving into as it may slay some of those demons perhaps?

I do need to look into it more. I just assumed that if we were shopping for a plan in 2020 our rates would be based on 2019’s 1040? I’ve got a years worth of cash built up to pull from in FIRE that would not show as taxable income for the next year, but for the first year I don’t think there would be any way to get subsidies.

Form memory (its been 4 years since we went onto it) you estimate your income for 2021 when you apply.. In that case you would get the subsidy upfront.

Losing (or even self quitting a job) mid year allows you to join the ACA for that year.

Even if you didn't get the subsidy upfront, they would give it to you when you reconcile your taxes for 2020.. So at worse you will have to prepay for 1 year.

It also matters which state you are in. @nippycrisp experienced no issue getting subsidies right away in California (if I remember correctly) even though he hadn’t proven his new, low retirement income yet. He just stated what it was going to be. I am sure other states make it more or less difficult depending on how on board they are with the ACA, but do look into it.

My estimates for ACA for our family are surprisingly affordable depending on how much in Roth conversions we want to do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on October 17, 2019, 01:48:05 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 16, 2019, 10:29:30 PM

Thinking of talking to Vanguard about using their professional advisory services.   Anybody have experience with Vanguard professional services?  Is it worth 0.30 percent?

Not personally but my parents and aunt and uncle use them.
I wish I had more info to give but I am not privy to the internal workings of their finances. I do believe they all like the hand holding and the warm fuzzy it gives them, and the price is less than you would get elsewhere.

I did find the advice for my parents to consider going to 40/60 allocation to be overly conservative considering the size of my father’s pension and the fact that my mother is already collecting SS. But I am no expert.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 17, 2019, 09:50:25 AM

I guess I really don't understand the need for an advisor, but thats coming from a die hard Mustacian perspective.

I'm sure they are very good but boy, 0.3% to tell me what mix of funds to buy is mind blowing expensive..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on October 17, 2019, 01:25:23 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on October 07, 2019, 08:31:39 PM

And just like that the motor blower stopped working on my nearly 11 year old 97% efficient York furnace.
Do I pay $810 to repair this, or do I buy a new furnace altogether, which would cost at least $3500 ?
If I repair the old furnace am I just going to have to make another repair to it in 2 years for another large amount, or will it be trouble free for a few years?
and if I buy a new furnace should I go ahead and upgrade my central air which has a SEER efficiency of 10 to a new central air SEER efficiency of 16?

I'm glad I'm still working part time, cause it's looking like I'll be spending money.

Well I'm happy to report that a friend/acquaintance was able to repair my furnace for a fraction of the cost of hiring a heating/cooling company to do the work.
At the last minute, I canceled the order for having a new A/C - Furnace system. I'm sure they weren't happy with me, but the salesman said I could even cancel the morning of the appointment.
My friend's labor cost was $170, and I spent about another $70 in parts, as well as $319 for a new motor I got on Ebay that I will have just in case the motor should fail in the future.
Not only did my friend repair the Electric Control Module to the Variable Speed Motor, but he also replaced a fuse, and found that the thermostat needed replacing. I got a no frills thermostat from Lowe's.
We also cleaned off the coils to the compressor which were caked in dirt/dust. Consequently, the A/C will run much more efficiently.
So for a fraction of the cost of hiring a company to repair the motor, I had a friend do the work, and additionally got my compressor cleaned out, and the blower blades cleaned off, as well as a new thermostat installed. He also repaired the end of my garden hose so that the sprayer head will fit better.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 17, 2019, 02:31:20 PM

"Fraction of the cost".. Yup like most things are when you lift the lid on the big scary monster..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 17, 2019, 06:33:05 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on October 17, 2019, 01:25:23 PM

Well I'm happy to report that a friend/acquaintance was able to repair my furnace for a fraction of the cost of hiring a heating/cooling company to do the work.

There is a pretty good place in lower Michigan called Repair Clinic.com that has helped me a few times with repair information and parts.  I fixed my furnace last Winter with parts ordered from them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on October 17, 2019, 07:00:34 PM

thanks pecunia, I did notice that website in my google searching.  I just know that I wouldn't have been able to do all these things myself without this friend who both had a lot of knowledge, as well as the tool kit that is needed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 17, 2019, 08:12:28 PM

I may still talk to Vanguard about the service, but it's kinda silly to hand them an extra $6,000 a year to buy mutual funds.  I'm thinking the things I'll need done they will do for free.  Will need to move 400k of cash balance from Prudential Retirement.  Move a million plus from Charles Schwab company 401k (maybe, if I work till 2023 then the rule of 55 can be used).  Move 200k from my wife's Lincoln Financial 401k (may use rule of 55 for my wife and leave it there).  Roth IRA, traditional IRA and taxable accounts already at Vanguard for years.
Screw it.   It might be easier to just keep working.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: smoghat on October 17, 2019, 09:37:07 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 16, 2019, 10:29:30 PM

Thinking of talking to Vanguard about using their professional advisory services.   Anybody have experience with Vanguard professional services?  Is it worth 0.30 percent?

No. I have a high enough investable worth that they gave me the same advice they’d give you for .30 percent for free, at least to start. It’s the same thing every financial advisor who isn’t a complete con artist will give you. Diversify your portfolio as per just about every investment site out there (good thing I didn’t listen to them since the drag a large amount of bonds would have put on my portfolio would have been bad). Don’t sell during a downturn. DON’T SELL DURING A DOWNTURN! That’s all.

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on October 17, 2019, 10:16:49 PM

I was reminded of this thread when watching Succession

https://youtu.be/OzYxJV_rmE8

In the second season, one of the characters, Greg thinks that he’ll be ok because he will inherit $5m

His relatives Connor Roy, eldest son of media mogul Logan Roy, and his friend (and boss) Tom, hilariously disabuse him of that notion:

Tom: “Five's a nightmare... can’t retire... not worth it to work.”

Connor: “Five will drive you un poco loco, my fine feathered friend.”

Tom: “Poorest rich person in America”

Connor: “The world's tallest dwarf......the weakest strong man at the circus."

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/10/6/20897073/succession-season-2-episode-9-dc-recap-winners-losers-tom-greg

Lol! What a great show!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 17, 2019, 11:11:31 PM

Quote from: smoghat on October 17, 2019, 09:37:07 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 16, 2019, 10:29:30 PM

Thinking of talking to Vanguard about using their professional advisory services.   Anybody have experience with Vanguard professional services?  Is it worth 0.30 percent?

No. I have a high enough investable worth that they gave me the same advice they’d give you for .30 percent for free, at least to start. It’s the same thing every financial advisor who isn’t a complete con artist will give you. Diversify your portfolio as per just about every investment site out there (good thing I didn’t listen to them since the drag a large amount of bonds would have put on my portfolio would have been bad). Don’t sell during a downturn. DON’T SELL DURING A DOWNTURN! That’s all.

How much do you need to have to get their advice for free?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 17, 2019, 11:44:33 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 17, 2019, 11:11:31 PM

Quote from: smoghat on October 17, 2019, 09:37:07 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 16, 2019, 10:29:30 PM

Thinking of talking to Vanguard about using their professional advisory services.   Anybody have experience with Vanguard professional services?  Is it worth 0.30 percent?

No. I have a high enough investable worth that they gave me the same advice they’d give you for .30 percent for free, at least to start. It’s the same thing every financial advisor who isn’t a complete con artist will give you. Diversify your portfolio as per just about every investment site out there (good thing I didn’t listen to them since the drag a large amount of bonds would have put on my portfolio would have been bad). Don’t sell during a downturn. DON’T SELL DURING A DOWNTURN! That’s all.

How much do you need to have to get their advice for free?

I think it's 5 million for the cheaper rate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 17, 2019, 11:53:25 PM

I'm being a candy-assed whiney pants.  I'm sitting on a new personal all time high stash and I've worked 76 hours in the last 7 days.  Having a why am I still doing this to myself moment.  It will pass.  Thanks for giving me an audience to vent to.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on October 18, 2019, 12:02:28 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 17, 2019, 11:53:25 PM

I'm being a candy-assed whiney pants.  I'm sitting on a new personal all time high stash and I've worked 76 hours in the last 7 days.  Having a why am I still doing this to myself moment.  It will pass.  Thanks for giving me an audience to vent to.

WTF moments do pass but they can be cumulative.   The question is: why are you letting the WTF moments accumulate?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on October 18, 2019, 06:41:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 16, 2019, 10:29:30 PM

Thinking of talking to Vanguard about using their professional advisory services.   Anybody have experience with Vanguard professional services?  Is it worth 0.30 percent?

I have watched reports on Bogleheads from people who use PAS.  What I've taken is that when you sign up, the following happens:  They figure out your age, put you in a target date fund, but instead of the TD, they break it down (just like rip off AUM advisors that we all hate do), give you the list and percentages and then say "take it or leave it....you can't change anything or we fire you from our PAS service".  I expect that they do rebalance automatically.  So there's 15 minutes a year (what I spend).

Well, I think I can figure out my AA on my own, thank you very much.  That's the easy part of retirement planning.  So what value is there that 0.3% is paying for?

If I'm wrong here, and someone has received more than what I describe, I'd love to hear it.  Do they help with setting up trusts?  Do glide paths for withdrawal phase?  Go in depth with minimizing taxes?  Strategize the best way to pay for college for the kids?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 18, 2019, 01:41:51 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on October 18, 2019, 06:41:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 16, 2019, 10:29:30 PM

Thinking of talking to Vanguard about using their professional advisory services.   Anybody have experience with Vanguard professional services?  Is it worth 0.30 percent?

I have watched reports on Bogleheads from people who use PAS.  What I've taken is that when you sign up, the following happens:  They figure out your age, put you in a target date fund, but instead of the TD, they break it down (just like rip off AUM advisors that we all hate do), give you the list and percentages and then say "take it or leave it....you can't change anything or we fire you from our PAS service".  I expect that they do rebalance automatically.  So there's 15 minutes a year (what I spend).

Well, I think I can figure out my AA on my own, thank you very much.  That's the easy part of retirement planning.  So what value is there that 0.3% is paying for?

If I'm wrong here, and someone has received more than what I describe, I'd love to hear it.  Do they help with setting up trusts?  Do glide paths for withdrawal phase?  Go in depth with minimizing taxes?  Strategize the best way to pay for college for the kids?

I would doubt you see anything but very basic service.  It's crazy that laws and companies have made it so easy to build wealth and so difficult to actually spend it.  Most of what I know I've learned from you guys and a few smart co-workers.  Most of the retirees I know use a full service broker and pay 1 percent of more for the service.  That's crazy!  You shouldn't have to pay that much to navigate in retirement.  A few of them have asked if me if I wanted to talk to their broker for a free consultation.  So far I've declined.  I really just need to figure out how I'm going to cover expenses till 2023-2024.  We've decided that all of 2020 we're going to work.  2021 we'll burn up remaining vacation and bail by March 2021.  Hopefully we can quit and apply for the ACA, keeping earnings low enough for the subsidy.  We'll use cash to fund the rest of the year.  If we miss that window, then I may as well work till June 2023 when I am 55 and have company health benefits.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: SwordGuy on October 18, 2019, 02:59:49 PM

Quote from: PathtoFIRE on May 05, 2017, 09:39:08 AM

There are a number of smaller colleges that provide free tuition. I did a google search, and the number vary, here is one of the top links, but take a look yourself
http://www.valuecolleges.com/top-25-tuition-free-colleges/

North Carolina has a number of state universities that are incredibly inexpensive for in-state residents.   And still affordable for out-of-state students, too.    In state tuition and fees for them, for a 4 year degree for a student living at home with their parents and on their parent's insurance, will cost about $16,000. 

For folks who aren't tied to a job, like FIRED mustachians, and willing to relocate, it's an inexpensive option. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 19, 2019, 04:20:14 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on October 18, 2019, 06:41:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 16, 2019, 10:29:30 PM

Thinking of talking to Vanguard about using their professional advisory services.   Anybody have experience with Vanguard professional services?  Is it worth 0.30 percent?

I have watched reports on Bogleheads from people who use PAS.  What I've taken is that when you sign up, the following happens:  They figure out your age, put you in a target date fund, but instead of the TD, they break it down (just like rip off AUM advisors that we all hate do), give you the list and percentages and then say "take it or leave it....you can't change anything or we fire you from our PAS service".  I expect that they do rebalance automatically.  So there's 15 minutes a year (what I spend).

Well, I think I can figure out my AA on my own, thank you very much.  That's the easy part of retirement planning.  So what value is there that 0.3% is paying for?

If I'm wrong here, and someone has received more than what I describe, I'd love to hear it.  Do they help with setting up trusts?  Do glide paths for withdrawal phase?  Go in depth with minimizing taxes?  Strategize the best way to pay for college for the kids?

Yea this is totally not what I have experienced at all and to be frank I have been very pleased with my experience for several years with my adviser. I read , read and read more on all these forums but either I just dont get alot of it or its a security thing but in any case I felt more comfortable when I fire'd going on 5 years now to use one of there advisers. When I inquired about the service I did say I basically wanted to interview a couple guys and the guy I picked is close to my age and has been with the company a bit.  We have had many lengthy conversations and unless he is on vacation I have never not called and talked to him within the same day. Most of the time I email him and he calls or responds quickly and /or handles my request or question. He knows he needs to explain things to me in detail and has never tried to sell me anything but instead explains options and long term picture. Maybe I got luck and several times I think I will just let it ride now but like I said I feel he has our back and is helping me navigate through everything . My suggestion would be to call and ask to talk to an adviser and give it a shot for a quarter or two and go from there. I dont know if you can request one but if you want you can PM me and I will give you the guys name I use. I think what has helped and would be the same or even better for you is as much as I feel I know nothing and trust no one being on MMM for all these years I had alot of questions I needed explaining that I am sure alot of there clients just dont know really anything. And if we ever talked about a target date fund I dont remember it but again it would of been an option and I must not of chose it at the time for whatever reason as I didnt like it vs other options.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 19, 2019, 05:53:39 AM

Fidelity has a similar service free for clients of a high net worth. They don’t rebalance automatically for you, but when you have a visit with your advisor they help you figure out what needs rebalanced and make suggestions about other funds etc. They have also set up appointments for me to get advice from their trust team. Ive been very happy with the service. I can talk to my advisor as much or as little as I want. When he makes suggestions I just write it all down and do the research myself and decide if I’m going to move money to that or not. He’s been very supportive of my three fund style portfolio using index funds, but we’ve added a couple other funds to tilt to healthcare and tech etc.
I think I could do it myself just fine, but it’s nice to have someone to bounce ideas off of or talk tax with. And it’s free!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 19, 2019, 10:51:06 AM

Wow.  Thanks so much for your comments.  Sometimes it's as if you are juggling eggs.  I think I'm just going to calm down and let things settle for a while.  Our money is growing at greater than 500 dollars a day, every day right now.  That's a conservative estimate, but it fixes a lot of problems and fills the gaps where my knowledge is lacking.   If I just hit it with a bigger hammer it will submit.  Some of the finess guys can do it with a little ball peen.  I'm going to pack a sledgehammer just in case.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 19, 2019, 02:00:05 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 19, 2019, 05:53:39 AM

Fidelity has a similar service free for clients of a high net worth. They don’t rebalance automatically for you, but when you have a visit with your advisor they help you figure out what needs rebalanced and make suggestions about other funds etc. They have also set up appointments for me to get advice from their trust team. Ive been very happy with the service. I can talk to my advisor as much or as little as I want. When he makes suggestions I just write it all down and do the research myself and decide if I’m going to move money to that or not. He’s been very supportive of my three fund style portfolio using index funds, but we’ve added a couple other funds to tilt to healthcare and tech etc.
I think I could do it myself just fine, but it’s nice to have someone to bounce ideas off of or talk tax with. And it’s free!

At what level is it free with Fidelity?

Vanguards list of fees does not say "free" at any level, even North of $25M.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 24, 2019, 02:40:14 AM

After working nearly thirty years in the field, I increasingly think I'm done with tech in general. Mostly by luck, my qualifications have become valuable. Not a day goes by without getting cold calls from tech headhunters. I'm being paid a ridiculously high salary and yet it gives me little satisfaction.

All of this came to head yesterday when I watched Zuckerberg being cross examined in congress. It was clear how much Facebook has not thought through the consequences of their product. There was also a great article in Wired recently about the practical consequences of Youtube's recommendation algorithm in promoting radicalization. This all seems like giving kids gasoline and matches as playthings.

I keep getting reminded of this quote from the book The Soul of a new Machine by Tracy Kidder:

Quote

He went away from the basement of Building 14 that day, and left this
note in his cubicle, on top of his computer terminal: "I'm going to a
commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a
season."

Unfortunately, I can't just walk out just yet. But I will be done for sure by this time next year at the latest.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 24, 2019, 11:46:17 AM

Good for you @2sk22 .. I remember the reliefe of driving away away from the plant at 10:30am on Jan 9th 2014.. Such a relief..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 24, 2019, 12:17:54 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 19, 2019, 02:00:05 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 19, 2019, 05:53:39 AM

Fidelity has a similar service free for clients of a high net worth. They don’t rebalance automatically for you, but when you have a visit with your advisor they help you figure out what needs rebalanced and make suggestions about other funds etc. They have also set up appointments for me to get advice from their trust team. Ive been very happy with the service. I can talk to my advisor as much or as little as I want. When he makes suggestions I just write it all down and do the research myself and decide if I’m going to move money to that or not. He’s been very supportive of my three fund style portfolio using index funds, but we’ve added a couple other funds to tilt to healthcare and tech etc.
I think I could do it myself just fine, but it’s nice to have someone to bounce ideas off of or talk tax with. And it’s free!

At what level is it free with Fidelity?

Vanguards list of fees does not say "free" at any level, even North of $25M.

 I think the portfolio value to get into the private client group has changed since I joined so I'm not sure. My 401k has been at Fidelity with every employer I've had so I got to know them that way. When my mom wanted me to take over handling her finances I decided to move her to Fidelity because I knew she would want an advisor to be able to see in person. I was so pleased with how they handled everything that I consolidated my Vanguard investments to Fidelity where my 401k was. It's been five years now, and I still like Fidelity better than Vanguard. The customer service is much better. The website is easier. And in most cases the fees are the same or lower. YMMV.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 25, 2019, 06:23:13 PM

Fidelity certainly has a lot more offices where you can talk to someone face to face.

Less offices help to keep Vanguard's costs low.

I am with both as different employers for whom I have worked have used both.

Now - You can tell me if that's dumb or maybe you'd say this provides a bit of further diversification.  Still working so for at least the next couple months I have some Vanguard.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on October 25, 2019, 09:16:22 PM

I really like the flexibility that Fidelity offers with respect to allowing a 3rd party to restate the Fidelity Individual 401k Plan.
With this restated 401k that I purchased through a 3rd party I'm able to Rothify assets every year.

I also like Fidelity's HSA plan, it's the best one on the market in terms of no fees and passive stock index funds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 26, 2019, 03:54:38 AM

Well my portfolio has changed a bit. My paid for house instead of being 10-12% of our Portfolio is now 23-25% as we got an offer we put in accepted on a lake house. My goal was to move to NC someday but my favorite place in the world was always Northern Wisconsin but while my DW would of retired there to make me happy I have been considering other options for the last year or so and near where we live now are a ton of lakes but its hard to get on them. Anyhow the one I really liked that is even in our same school district but totally feels like being up North and just fell in love with they dropped the price 50k so I immediately swooped in and made an offer. So were all excited subject to inspections of course. So now I need to get my house on the market this week and of course being part of this group and all I re-calculated everything this morning and excluded my side gig money, my DW's money and were good even if I put only have the proceeds from the sale of current house back into funds. There is some work I want to do to the house before moving in but not half the amount of the proceeds. So hopefully all the inspections go good and our closing Date is set right now for Dec. 6th.

Just want to mention that no way 4.5 years ago when I fire'd I thought this would be possible but MMM and alot of people here and learning what I have is what made this dream come true. Also for those that were thinking about using a Vanguard Advisor  not within 5-6 Hours I had everything I needed done to shift some money around and a letter for the Selling Agent to show I have sufficient funds. They were outstanding, Vanguard.  I got no flack from my advisor and a Congratulations . Now granted alot of that might just be smoke but like i said i do feel at least the guy I use there really has my best interest at hand.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on October 26, 2019, 02:57:18 PM

For those in this club, retired or soon to be retired, do you follow or plan to follow the 4% withdrawal rule approximately? Or what is or will be your withdrawal rate?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 26, 2019, 04:14:19 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 26, 2019, 02:57:18 PM

For those in this club, retired or soon to be retired, do you follow or plan to follow the 4% withdrawal rule approximately? Or what is or will be your withdrawal rate?

Because we are young with kids, and I’m hoping for a LONG retirement, I’ve used 3%. But there is no budget for frivolous travel or home improvements/purchases, and 3% does not include college tuition. So there will be quite a few years where it is closer to 4% but our basic needs are covered at 3%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 26, 2019, 04:39:19 PM

I was aiming for 3% and missed..:)

What happened was the 3% part actually worked, but that was back in 2014 and since then our invested savings have doubled due to market returns.. So that puts us at 1.5%.


Whats "worse" is that I totally failed to include upcoming pensions. Seriously I thought they would be so small as to be irrelevant. Turns out thats not true so we will be at less than 1% when we draw pension income.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: CoffeeR on October 26, 2019, 06:26:22 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 26, 2019, 04:39:19 PM

I was aiming for 3% and missed..:)
...
Turns out thats not true so we will be at less than 1% when we draw pension income.

Nice problem to have. I have no pension and I am in my fifties. I will either fire, or semi-fire (e.g. a significant side hustle or part time) next year. If I only semi-fire my withdrawal will likely be close to 0%, I just won't be adding much if anything to the stache. Fully FIRE'd I am aiming at anywhere from 4% to 5% with significant flexibility to decrease spending if conditions warrant. To me, flexibility is the key to making the work and having a lot of fat that can be trimmed helps.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 27, 2019, 03:08:06 AM

I'm Fired and for me it is 3-4% . And last year actually was 5%. This year has been closer to 3. So in that range and with side gig if I keep doing then might even be lower.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on October 27, 2019, 07:09:45 AM

For me it's -1.5% because I'm FIREd but I'm still working part time and saving some money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on October 27, 2019, 10:20:36 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on October 26, 2019, 03:54:38 AM

Well my portfolio has changed a bit. My paid for house instead of being 10-12% of our Portfolio is now 23-25% as we got an offer we put in accepted on a lake house. My goal was to move to NC someday but my favorite place in the world was always Northern Wisconsin but while my DW would of retired there to make me happy I have been considering other options for the last year or so and near where we live now are a ton of lakes but its hard to get on them. Anyhow the one I really liked that is even in our same school district but totally feels like being up North and just fell in love with they dropped the price 50k so I immediately swooped in and made an offer. So were all excited subject to inspections of course. So now I need to get my house on the market this week and of course being part of this group and all I re-calculated everything this morning and excluded my side gig money, my DW's money and were good even if I put only have the proceeds from the sale of current house back into funds. There is some work I want to do to the house before moving in but not half the amount of the proceeds. So hopefully all the inspections go good and our closing Date is set right now for Dec. 6th.

Just want to mention that no way 4.5 years ago when I fire'd I thought this would be possible but MMM and alot of people here and learning what I have is what made this dream come true. Also for those that were thinking about using a Vanguard Advisor  not within 5-6 Hours I had everything I needed done to shift some money around and a letter for the Selling Agent to show I have sufficient funds. They were outstanding, Vanguard.  I got no flack from my advisor and a Congratulations . Now granted alot of that might just be smoke but like i said i do feel at least the guy I use there really has my best interest at hand.

@soccerluvof4 , I'm confused.  You're staying in Wisconsin, is that it?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on October 27, 2019, 10:44:09 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on October 27, 2019, 07:09:45 AM

For me it's -1.5% because I'm FIREd but I'm still working part time and saving some money.

I consider myself as semi-retired or semi-FIREd, or work part-time, depending upon which direction to look. But I would like to do something close to 4% to be comfortable in retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 27, 2019, 11:02:50 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 26, 2019, 02:57:18 PM

For those in this club, retired or soon to be retired, do you follow or plan to follow the 4% withdrawal rule approximately? Or what is or will be your withdrawal rate?

One nice perk of being in the $2M+ club is that a 3% super-safe WR provides for that sweet spot $60k+ perpetual income.  Once we are done with the house payment and college is covered (in other words, if the expenses are just for my spouse and myself), $60-90k will be more than enough.  And once we hit 65 and get to Medicare and start taking some SS at 62 (spouse) and eventually mine at 70, the WR will probably drop to 1 - 2% and we will need to get more serious about estate planning.  It's a nice result of good planning and some luck.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on October 27, 2019, 11:12:24 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 27, 2019, 11:02:50 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 26, 2019, 02:57:18 PM

For those in this club, retired or soon to be retired, do you follow or plan to follow the 4% withdrawal rule approximately? Or what is or will be your withdrawal rate?

One nice perk of being in the $2M+ club is that a 3% super-safe WR provides for that sweet spot $60k+ perpetual income.  Once we are done with the house payment and college is covered (in other words, if the expenses are just for my spouse and myself), $60-90k will be more than enough.  And once we hit 65 and get to Medicare and start taking some SS at 62 (spouse) and eventually mine at 70, the WR will probably drop to 1 - 2% and we will need to get more serious about estate planning.  It's a nice result of good planning and some luck.

When the withdrawal rate is in the range of 1-2%, do you plan to increase your spending? or increase it before that time if you know the money is coming?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on October 27, 2019, 12:06:38 PM

I just applied for social security.  Our withdrawal rate in a normal year will drop to 0%.   I'm starting to get used to the idea that the stash might just last.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 27, 2019, 12:22:57 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 27, 2019, 11:12:24 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 27, 2019, 11:02:50 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 26, 2019, 02:57:18 PM

For those in this club, retired or soon to be retired, do you follow or plan to follow the 4% withdrawal rule approximately? Or what is or will be your withdrawal rate?

One nice perk of being in the $2M+ club is that a 3% super-safe WR provides for that sweet spot $60k+ perpetual income.  Once we are done with the house payment and college is covered (in other words, if the expenses are just for my spouse and myself), $60-90k will be more than enough.  And once we hit 65 and get to Medicare and start taking some SS at 62 (spouse) and eventually mine at 70, the WR will probably drop to 1 - 2% and we will need to get more serious about estate planning.  It's a nice result of good planning and some luck.

When the withdrawal rate is in the range of 1-2%, do you plan to increase your spending? or increase it before that time if you know the money is coming?

We already spend quite freely (eating out and trying new things) so I can't imagine increasing spending from where we are currently at, especially when we are older.  I stopped worrying about spending when we passed 3M and have increased charitable giving, but still the stash is growing (especially in years with 10+% returns on 3M+ and, with a mortgage and 529 contributions, spending ~100k).  At 65+, we will turn our efforts toward active philanthropy - supporting causes with our time and money that we deeply believe in, hoping to leave the world a better place (and not give our kids so much money that they have no incentive to make it on their own). 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 27, 2019, 03:44:33 PM

Highest we have spent in FIRE is $52k for the two of us with the house paid off.

That for us was pushing the boat out quite a bit. Its hard to imagine how we would spend any more than that, even with our WR heading towards zero%.

A lifetime of thrift is not an easy habit to break.. Heck I have lunch ONCE PER WEEK with a good friend of mine.. So what? you ask?.. Well buying lunch is something I haven't done for 30 years and I still find myself wanting to eat at the cheapest place and scanning the menu for the best deal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on October 27, 2019, 04:08:24 PM

That sounds like a terrible way to view money......but it's super interesting to hear how some people can't loosen the purse strings and enjoy the fruit of their labor.

I can think of many creative ways to spend money and enrich not only my life, but those around me as well. Shit, just the things I would want to do while I was able bodied and had the energy/desire. Once you're 65+, the research shows folks slow down and spending subsequently does as well.

Y'all are an inspiration here.....much food for thought.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on October 27, 2019, 04:30:43 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on October 27, 2019, 04:08:24 PM

That sounds like a terrible way to view money......but it's super interesting to hear how some people can't loosen the purse strings and enjoy the fruit of their labor.

I can think of many creative ways to spend money and enrich not only my life, but those around me as well. Shit, just the things I would want to do while I was able bodied and had the energy/desire. Once you're 65+, the research shows folks slow down and spending subsequently does as well.

Y'all are an inspiration here.....much food for thought.

Yes. I think I can figure out things to spend money on. No, that is not the usually honorable charity spending that people like to talk and hear about.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on October 27, 2019, 04:34:13 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 27, 2019, 03:44:33 PM

Highest we have spent in FIRE is $52k for the two of us with the house paid off.

That for us was pushing the boat out quite a bit. Its hard to imagine how we would spend any more than that, even with our WR heading towards zero%.

A lifetime of thrift is not an easy habit to break.. Heck I have lunch ONCE PER WEEK with a good friend of mine.. So what? you ask?.. Well buying lunch is something I haven't done for 30 years and I still find myself wanting to eat at the cheapest place and scanning the menu for the best deal.

I have been working at my current job for more than 20 years. I only went out for lunch with the best friend in my work place once. I bring my lunch to the office most of the time. In one or two times in a year that I did not have leftover to bring to the office, I went to McDonalds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on October 27, 2019, 04:36:21 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 27, 2019, 12:06:38 PM

I just applied for social security.  Our withdrawal rate in a normal year will drop to 0%.   I'm starting to get used to the idea that the stash might just last.

Then, do you have a plan for your portfolio of $2M plus?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 27, 2019, 07:49:32 PM

Our planned 60K annual spending has dipped into the sub 3 percent withdrawal range.  We haven't FIRED yet.  More likely than not lots of those here will be giving away money towards the end of life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 27, 2019, 08:05:27 PM

I'll bet most of that money given away will be given away wisely.  These people recognize value.

Just looking at the names here I see: Exflyboy, flyingaway and 2birdsone stone.  I won't say anything about airheads.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on October 27, 2019, 09:58:25 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 27, 2019, 04:36:21 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 27, 2019, 12:06:38 PM

I just applied for social security.  Our withdrawal rate in a normal year will drop to 0%.   I'm starting to get used to the idea that the stash might just last.

Then, do you have a plan for your portfolio of $2M plus?

We have a daughter with Down syndrome.   Most of it will go into a special needs trust.  A nice chunk will be used to help our son and his three kids.    W just bought a charity house that we'll be doing a slow renovation on to provide low cost, non-profit group housing to folks.   

And, of course, there's our blood-sucking medical system that can run thru a small fortune in months that might get ahold of some of it.   My plan is to be shot dead by a jealous husband on my 120th birthday, so if all goes well, the medical bills will be pretty low. :)   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 28, 2019, 12:19:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 27, 2019, 09:58:25 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 27, 2019, 04:36:21 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 27, 2019, 12:06:38 PM

I just applied for social security.  Our withdrawal rate in a normal year will drop to 0%.   I'm starting to get used to the idea that the stash might just last.

Then, do you have a plan for your portfolio of $2M plus?

We have a daughter with Down syndrome.   Most of it will go into a special needs trust.  A nice chunk will be used to help our son and his three kids.    W just bought a charity house that we'll be doing a slow renovation on to provide low cost, non-profit group housing to folks.   

And, of course, there's our blood-sucking medical system that can run thru a small fortune in months that might get ahold of some of it. My plan is to be shot dead by a jealous husband on my 120th birthday, so if all goes well, the medical bills will be pretty low. :)   

Hmmm, what is your wife's plan?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 28, 2019, 02:22:08 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 27, 2019, 10:20:36 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on October 26, 2019, 03:54:38 AM

Well my portfolio has changed a bit. My paid for house instead of being 10-12% of our Portfolio is now 23-25% as we got an offer we put in accepted on a lake house. My goal was to move to NC someday but my favorite place in the world was always Northern Wisconsin but while my DW would of retired there to make me happy I have been considering other options for the last year or so and near where we live now are a ton of lakes but its hard to get on them. Anyhow the one I really liked that is even in our same school district but totally feels like being up North and just fell in love with they dropped the price 50k so I immediately swooped in and made an offer. So were all excited subject to inspections of course. So now I need to get my house on the market this week and of course being part of this group and all I re-calculated everything this morning and excluded my side gig money, my DW's money and were good even if I put only have the proceeds from the sale of current house back into funds. There is some work I want to do to the house before moving in but not half the amount of the proceeds. So hopefully all the inspections go good and our closing Date is set right now for Dec. 6th.

Just want to mention that no way 4.5 years ago when I fire'd I thought this would be possible but MMM and alot of people here and learning what I have is what made this dream come true. Also for those that were thinking about using a Vanguard Advisor  not within 5-6 Hours I had everything I needed done to shift some money around and a letter for the Selling Agent to show I have sufficient funds. They were outstanding, Vanguard.  I got no flack from my advisor and a Congratulations . Now granted alot of that might just be smoke but like i said i do feel at least the guy I use there really has my best interest at hand.

@soccerluvof4 , I'm confused.  You're staying in Wisconsin, is that it?

Haha,,,Yea, well kinda. I always said to my DW the only two places i would retire are Northern WI where we use to have our cabin or NC BUT 10-15 minutes from us to the North is a particular lake that has the feel of being Up North but is ideal for the kids and everything else if were going to stay here. The plan would be in 5 years when all the kids are out now to Head to NC for a month or two in dead of winter but seeing as the place we bought will always have a good resale that can always change but we felt it was time to do something for us now since both in our mid 50's to enjoy cuz you just never know what the future will bring. And in 5 years we will be in a better position if our health and all is good to make an out of state move if we decide to go that route.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on October 28, 2019, 08:06:38 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 27, 2019, 07:49:32 PM

Our planned 60K annual spending has dipped into the sub 3 percent withdrawal range.  We haven't FIRED yet.  More likely than not lots of those here will be giving away money towards the end of life.

Looks like 3% or similar annual spending is the way to go in this club. I am sure people in other threads on this forum are fiercely defending the 4% rule. I just don't know how many people are actually using the 4% rule in spending.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on October 28, 2019, 08:32:22 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 28, 2019, 08:06:38 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 27, 2019, 07:49:32 PM

Our planned 60K annual spending has dipped into the sub 3 percent withdrawal range.  We haven't FIRED yet.  More likely than not lots of those here will be giving away money towards the end of life.

Looks like 3% or similar annual spending is the way to go in this club. I am sure people in other threads on this forum are fiercely defending the 4% rule. I just don't know how many people are actually using the 4% rule in spending.

I plan to and am comfortable with starting with the 4% withdraw and spending that money, whether on myself or giving away, but then adjusting downward if and when needed, as failure at this withdraw rate seems not to happen quickly but over a very long period.  When I do get concerned with a 4% rate (or even a 5% rate) in the boards is when folks are FIRing with the withdraw being based on their current very barebone basics, as both unexpected future expenses (which I easily see happening over a 40 year retirement) and black swan investment events can't be handled with any flexibility.  If someone is using a very bareboned approach at figuring the rate I'd support 3% or just accept that going back to work is a viable option to handle the unexpected (which is a fine approach if accepted).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 28, 2019, 09:16:25 AM

I have a hard time not thinking of ways that I'd spend the money, if I was struggling to spend at our planned withdrawal rate. Off the top of my head:
-Helping others (already listed, but I'm thinking of in addition to planned DAF, things like surprising people at the grocery store, donating to a great local kids charity, paying off kids lunch bills, donating supplies to our local classroom).
-Taking people with me. I love to travel & vacation with friends (my sister & BFF), parents, etc, but have a much bigger travel fund than they do. I'd bring them along & splurge on additional activities (surf lessons, etc)
-I'd spend more on kid experiences. Right now, we try & limit that for a variety of reasons, but I'd definitely add a few experiences (not flying on a private jet to some exotic vacation destination, just more things like some additional family time skiing or at our vacation house, etc)
-I'd stop cleaning my own house. I know, I know. Such a hot topic.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on October 28, 2019, 10:03:50 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 28, 2019, 08:06:38 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 27, 2019, 07:49:32 PM

Our planned 60K annual spending has dipped into the sub 3 percent withdrawal range.  We haven't FIRED yet.  More likely than not lots of those here will be giving away money towards the end of life.

Looks like 3% or similar annual spending is the way to go in this club. I am sure people in other threads on this forum are fiercely defending the 4% rule. I just don't know how many people are actually using the 4% rule in spending.

I'm still working on the newest version of my spreadsheet that factors in tax rates at various withdrawals from various sources (if someone has a Canadian version of this, please share the link)

The first 10 years of retirement will have higher withdrawal rates 5-8% depending on the year, I expect these to be higher spend years because (note:  I'm not convinced we'll spend that much, but it's in the spreadsheet to ensure we have 'enough')
1) moving to a new house as part of our retirement, that is lakefront, so dock, used boat, landscaping, a couple of used sleds etc
2) expect these to be the GO GO years, where we will travel a bit more
3) no government payouts yet (CPP, OAS)
4) we need to replace our 14 and 16 year old cars
5) we'll entertain more, see item (1) (expect people to want to visit a lake house rather than a suburban toronto home)
6) I want to draw down our RRSP a bit before RRIF conversion.   I don't want to be in the position when I'm 80 that my mandated minimum withdrawal is high enough to claw back my OAS.  I'll spend it when I'm 60 before I'll let the government get it in taxes when I'm 85!  FFS, I'll spend frivolously before I'll willingly let my government spend it foolishly.

Since we're 'barely' into this club, I expect our withdrawals will be in the 3% range after that....but the inheritances I'm not counting, may push us closer to $3M or the market goes on another upward tear might push us down to 1.5%.  If that happens I'd up my spending, probably gifts to niece and nephew or charity.   See some good from my money while I'm alive. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on October 28, 2019, 10:55:17 AM

My spread sheet shows me 4%, 3% and 2% numbers.  I'm already at the 2% number, still working and have an old pension that I plan to lump sum into my IRA in a bit over 2 years (over 1 full year of spending right there).  My plan is to pay attention to what we actually spend and then likely lighten up on the tight reigns of spending.  Oh....and my wife plans to go from 4 shifts per diem to full time work sometime soon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on October 28, 2019, 12:43:31 PM

I am planning on spending above 4%, as I am an optimistic guy.😁


Based off history even a 6% draw down rate has more than a 50% chance of success, not that I am brave enough to roll the dice that far,


I am targeting around 4.5%


 But
  - I have a large discretionary budget that can be slashed/ deferred comfortably. It’s not Plan A to have to spend less,  but given the high probability that plan A (4.5% drawdown) will work out, I’m willing to take the risk that I might not be able to take fancy overseas trips for a few years here and there.

  - I have a large sinking fun budget (cars and home maintenance/ improvements), that won’t be used in down years. Home renovations and car replacements can be dalyed for many years.

 - If in a year I spend half my travel budget and none of my sinking funds, my withdrawal rate is just above 3%.... so pretty much bulletproof safe.

  - There is a high probability that DW will continue to earn a small casual income. If she works 3 months in a year our withdrawal rate will also be just above 3% and If we combine 3 months of her working with no spending of our sinking funds and spend 50’% of our travel budget we will be drawing below 2.5%.

  - we always have the option of selling our house to buy something cheaper, or do a reverse mortgage, if things really go to shit.

  - worst case we will get a partial old age government pension like the majority of Australian retirees. I really don’t expect that we will ever need govt money though.

For me it’s either OMY or take the plunge with what I have. I have convinced myself that I have the means to have a successful early retirement without working the extra year. So onwards and upwards!

The only thing that nags at me is passing up on the potential to buy an even more expensive home now..... but as I’ll be drawing only 4.5% and the long term average real stock market returns are 7%+, I suspect 10 or 15 years from now I’ll have the option to upgrade our housing if the desire still nags at me..... and as we plan to travel a lot over the next decade, having a fancy house during that time will be unnecessary.... or so I am telling myself 😬 it’s so hard to predict how we will feel 5 years from now amd what will be important to us at that time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 28, 2019, 04:42:03 PM

Sad to say but many of us do not work the 40 hour week.  With work occupying so much of our time, it is not even possible to spend the money on discretionary items.  This can create a false sense of what it will cost to live free.  When the time becomes available the spending may actually increase on all of the fun stuff that has been held back.

I need lots of fat in my estimate, but I'm still optimistic to holding it down to 3%.

If the big crash comes, it may slide up to 4%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 28, 2019, 06:18:58 PM

Quote from: pecunia on October 28, 2019, 04:42:03 PM

Sad to say but many of us do not work the 40 hour week.  With work occupying so much of our time, it is not even possible to spend the money on discretionary items.  This can create a false sense of what it will cost to live free.  When the time becomes available the spending may actually increase on all of the fun stuff that has been held back.

I need lots of fat in my estimate, but I'm still optimistic to holding it down to 3%.

If the big crash comes, it may slide up to 4%.

Good point. In our case the spend went from $30k up to about $52k for that very reason alone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on October 28, 2019, 07:07:55 PM

Quote from: pecunia on October 28, 2019, 04:42:03 PM

Sad to say but many of us do not work the 40 hour week.  With work occupying so much of our time, it is not even possible to spend the money on discretionary items.  This can create a false sense of what it will cost to live free.  When the time becomes available the spending may actually increase on all of the fun stuff that has been held back.

I need lots of fat in my estimate, but I'm still optimistic to holding it down to 3%.

If the big crash comes, it may slide up to 4%.

I agree with this statement. That is why I have been intentionally increasing my spending on some hobbies that I may or may not pursue in retirement to see how much I actually want or could spend. I call that experiencing retirement. I do not work 40 hours a week, but I have not fully retired.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 30, 2019, 02:51:53 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 28, 2019, 07:07:55 PM

Quote from: pecunia on October 28, 2019, 04:42:03 PM

Sad to say but many of us do not work the 40 hour week.  With work occupying so much of our time, it is not even possible to spend the money on discretionary items.  This can create a false sense of what it will cost to live free.  When the time becomes available the spending may actually increase on all of the fun stuff that has been held back.

I need lots of fat in my estimate, but I'm still optimistic to holding it down to 3%.

If the big crash comes, it may slide up to 4%.

I agree with this statement. That is why I have been intentionally increasing my spending on some hobbies that I may or may not pursue in retirement to see how much I actually want or could spend. I call that experiencing retirement. I do not work 40 hours a week, but I have not fully retired.

This is why being Fire'd I too have been doing side gigs and also enjoying things a little more than I plan to in the near future and also spending $ on things like the new house for hopefully rest of our lives. Little easier mentally when the market is up. I want to be able to really dig in my heels when the next crash comes and be able to buy but I have also taken more out being higher by about 1% and have spent my side gig money freely.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on October 30, 2019, 08:19:22 AM

So, for those of you in this club, what is your current asset allocation?
For me, my target allocation is 70/30. It is probably around 68/27/5 (stocks/bonds/cash) now. I do not rebalance frequently.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 30, 2019, 09:22:20 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 30, 2019, 08:19:22 AM

So, for those of you in this club, what is your current asset allocation?
For me, my target allocation is 70/30. It is probably around 68/27/5 (stocks/bonds/cash) now. I do not rebalance frequently.

Both mine and my wife's 401k are at 60/40  stocks/cash&bonds
For liquid assets: Its about 55/45 (will have to pay for college in a couple of years and it's likely to be expensive). On the other hand, a big stock grant will vest in the coming year so that will even things out towards 60/40.

However, we have such ridiculously large numbers that I'm embarrassed even to say how much :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 30, 2019, 10:12:12 AM

About 75/22/3 for all our liquid investments.

But then we have rental income (roughly 40% of current spend) and in 4 years our pensions will be 70% of current spend. I intend to be out of the rental business at that point.. maybe..:)

If anything I'd like to be a little more aggressive with investments.. but you KNOW the big crash is coming...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 30, 2019, 10:39:20 AM

65% stocks
15% cash balance lump sum pension
10% bonds
5% cash
5% REITs

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 30, 2019, 11:26:42 AM

Well, you guys are making me feel bad. We are probably too aggressive. But we haven't actually retired yet so that's part of it.
 Our $2.5M portfolio is- 80% stocks (largely in a three index fund portfolio) 10% bond and 5% cash. The cash gives me some comfort as there is about two years of living expenses in that.
I am planning to RE in May. DH has not yet set a date. We may change our allocations as we get closer to having no income.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on October 30, 2019, 11:31:01 AM

I believe we are around 35% now (?), but our goal is to be 60/40 when we reach The Number, which is pretty much right now. We have switched our weekly vanguard contributions to bond funds instead of stock, so this will slowly start drifting in the right direction.

Up until a year or two ago we were about 90% stock.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on October 30, 2019, 12:15:43 PM

We are mostly in index funds, so I use the Morningstar allocations for each of those (and guesstimate for wife's TSP funds), split between stocks, bond, cash, and alternatives. We are right at 82% stocks/alts and 18% bonds/cash in the index funds, more like 75/25 when I add in bank account cash, and 62/20 plus 18% RE when I add in usable home equity.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 30, 2019, 12:31:23 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 30, 2019, 11:26:42 AM

Well, you guys are making me feel bad. We are probably too aggressive. But we haven't actually retired yet so that's part of it.
 Our $2.5M portfolio is- 80% stocks (largely in a three index fund portfolio) 10% bond and 5% cash. The cash gives me some comfort as there is about two years of living expenses in that.
I am planning to RE in May. DH has not yet set a date. We may change our allocations as we get closer to having no income.

Without tossing in my 400K of cash balance pension, we'd be closer to 80% stocks.  You've got 2.5M in stash.  You don't have to own bonds or hold much cash.  That big portfolio will carry you through a down turn, even if selling devalued stocks.  We only in the last year started to load up some bonds.  We own about 200K in bonds.  That's enough for me. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: trashtalk on October 30, 2019, 12:41:39 PM

We have virtually no bonds but we are youngish (early 40s) so feel comfortable with an aggressive allocation. About 10 percent of our net worth is cash.

We could probably RE now if we saw fit but our kids are small and DH loves working so we believe we have a long runway.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 30, 2019, 01:51:10 PM

We’re at about 80% stocks, 15% income generating real estate, and 5% cash. We keep talking about moving some of the equities into bonds, but the market keeps climbing and reminding us why we don’t. Sooner or later we will regret this when the market reverses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 30, 2019, 05:17:40 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 30, 2019, 10:12:12 AM

- SNIP -

If anything I'd like to be a little more aggressive with investments.. but you KNOW the big crash is coming...:)

Oh man - I'm hearing it again.  Time to rush to bonds and wait it out.  Maybe go to heavy metals.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 30, 2019, 05:34:19 PM

Quote from: pecunia on October 30, 2019, 05:17:40 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 30, 2019, 10:12:12 AM

- SNIP -

If anything I'd like to be a little more aggressive with investments.. but you KNOW the big crash is coming...:)

Oh man - I'm hearing it again.  Time to rush to bonds and wait it out.  Maybe go to heavy metals.

Haha.. If we do get the big crash I am moving to 90/10.. Heck maybe even 95/5..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: alienbogey on October 30, 2019, 11:20:06 PM

99% equities  (32% individual stocks)

1% cash

:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 31, 2019, 01:03:13 AM

Quote from: alienbogey on October 30, 2019, 11:20:06 PM

99% equities  (32% individual stocks)

1% cash

:)

With today's all time high I would have to say your strategy has been more successful than mine (75/25)..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 31, 2019, 06:22:10 AM

How much umbrella insurance do you guys keep? I just got the renewal notice for my policy and am wondering if I need to increase my coverage.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 31, 2019, 06:48:23 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on October 31, 2019, 06:22:10 AM

How much umbrella insurance do you guys keep? I just got the renewal notice for my policy and am wondering if I need to increase my coverage.

Oh good! I thought I had stumbled on to the "Top Is In" thread. How much do you carry and how much more would each increment cost you? Umbrella insurance is kind of an odd duck and not typically worth as much the insurance companies want you to believe it is.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 31, 2019, 06:54:48 AM

Quote from: Dicey on October 31, 2019, 06:48:23 AM

Oh good! I thought I had stumbled on to the "Top Is In" thread. How much do you carry and how much more would each increment cost you? Umbrella insurance is kind of an odd duck and not typically worth as much the insurance companies want you to believe it is.

My current policy liability limit is $ 1 million "per occurrence". And it costs us about $300 per year (both car and house are insured by the same company). I need to call the agent to find out how much it will cost to increase coverage.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on October 31, 2019, 07:45:43 AM

My AA:  50/50

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on October 31, 2019, 07:51:27 AM

My rough AA: 10% cash. 40% equities. 50% RE (real estate was dirt DIRT cheap in 2009; I bought a bunch of B class homes in B class neighborhoods that were cheaper than many mid-luxury cars)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on October 31, 2019, 09:02:50 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 30, 2019, 11:26:42 AM

Well, you guys are making me feel bad. We are probably too aggressive. But we haven't actually retired yet so that's part of it.
 Our $2.5M portfolio is- 80% stocks (largely in a three index fund portfolio) 10% bond and 5% cash. The cash gives me some comfort as there is about two years of living expenses in that.
I am planning to RE in May. DH has not yet set a date. We may change our allocations as we get closer to having no income.

This sounds very similar to us.  $2.9M portfolio.  Was about 90/10 equities/bonds but FIRing probably in the next year so have already started moving toward my FIRE plan which is somewhere around 80/10/10 equities/bonds/cash (about where I am at now) to maybe 70/20/10 at the most conservative.

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on October 31, 2019, 09:37:46 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 30, 2019, 11:26:42 AM

Well, you guys are making me feel bad. We are probably too aggressive. But we haven't actually retired yet so that's part of it.
 Our $2.5M portfolio is- 80% stocks (largely in a three index fund portfolio) 10% bond and 5% cash. The cash gives me some comfort as there is about two years of living expenses in that.
I am planning to RE in May. DH has not yet set a date. We may change our allocations as we get closer to having no income.

How old are you?

It doesn’t sound too aggressive to me. We were 80/20 equity/cash before the credit crisis and we were in our 30s when we had a similar sized portfolio

$5m portfolio now

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 31, 2019, 10:49:37 AM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on October 31, 2019, 09:37:46 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 30, 2019, 11:26:42 AM

Well, you guys are making me feel bad. We are probably too aggressive. But we haven't actually retired yet so that's part of it.
 Our $2.5M portfolio is- 80% stocks (largely in a three index fund portfolio) 10% bond and 5% cash. The cash gives me some comfort as there is about two years of living expenses in that.
I am planning to RE in May. DH has not yet set a date. We may change our allocations as we get closer to having no income.

How old are you?

It doesn’t sound too aggressive to me. We were 80/20 equity/cash before the credit crisis and we were in our 30s when we had a similar sized portfolio

$5m portfolio now

We are 42. Which is a lot of the reason we've been pretty aggressive. I see being young as both a positive and a negative. It's a negative (and reason to be more conservative) because we will hopefully have a very LONG retirement to cover. It's a positive because we still have the ability to be nimble. I really see age as more of a factor in changing our AA over changing our employment status. maybe that's not smart.
The 5%-6% in cash has been debated by us over and over. It's in a MM earning 1.7%. There's a few reasons we've kept it-
 -I think it will be helpful to have cash to draw from as I RE so that I can control my taxable income, could help with the ACA
 - We have considered using it to pay off our house. I was firmly in the keep a mortgage camp, but when the standard deductions changed, the mortgage (at 4%) offers no real benefit to us other than keeping more money in the market.
 -We could decide to use it in a market downturn to buy a property or two, or we could just throw it in the market in a downturn
-oh, and my DH's car has 210k miles on it so we never know when we'll need to jump and solve that problem. That'll suck up $20k or so.

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on October 31, 2019, 11:03:45 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 31, 2019, 10:49:37 AM

We are 42. Which is a lot of the reason we've been pretty aggressive. I see being young as both a positive and a negative. It's a negative (and reason to be more conservative) because we will hopefully have a very LONG retirement to cover. It's a positive because we still have the ability to be nimble. I really see age as more of a factor in changing our AA over changing our employment status. maybe that's not smart.
The 5%-6% in cash has been debated by us over and over. It's in a MM earning 1.7%. There's a few reasons we've kept it-
 -I think it will be helpful to have cash to draw from as I RE so that I can control my taxable income, could help with the ACA
 - We have considered using it to pay off our house. I was firmly in the keep a mortgage camp, but when the standard deductions changed, the mortgage (at 4%) offers no real benefit to us other than keeping more money in the market.
 -We could decide to use it in a market downturn to buy a property or two, or we could just throw it in the market in a downturn
-oh, and my DH's car has 210k miles on it so we never know when we'll need to jump and solve that problem. That'll suck up $20k or so.

I agree that being young is a double edged sword when it comes to money, but outside of that, it’s all positive!

It sounds like you have things well thought out

Nice job!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on October 31, 2019, 11:09:51 AM

Quote from: Dicey on October 31, 2019, 06:48:23 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on October 31, 2019, 06:22:10 AM

How much umbrella insurance do you guys keep? I just got the renewal notice for my policy and am wondering if I need to increase my coverage.

Oh good! I thought I had stumbled on to the "Top Is In" thread. How much do you carry and how much more would each increment cost you? Umbrella insurance is kind of an odd duck and not typically worth as much the insurance companies want you to believe it is.

I used to have a $1MM umbrella policy. I dropped it when my current insurance company (with Costco) did not have umbrella policy and I had to get it from another company.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: RWD on October 31, 2019, 11:11:49 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 31, 2019, 01:03:13 AM

With today's all time high [...]

I'm gonna pretend I didn't hear this and act surprised tomorrow... (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/stop-checking-the-stock-market-in-october/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on October 31, 2019, 11:13:08 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on October 31, 2019, 09:02:50 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 30, 2019, 11:26:42 AM

Well, you guys are making me feel bad. We are probably too aggressive. But we haven't actually retired yet so that's part of it.
 Our $2.5M portfolio is- 80% stocks (largely in a three index fund portfolio) 10% bond and 5% cash. The cash gives me some comfort as there is about two years of living expenses in that.
I am planning to RE in May. DH has not yet set a date. We may change our allocations as we get closer to having no income.

This sounds very similar to us.  $2.9M portfolio.  Was about 90/10 equities/bonds but FIRing probably in the next year so have already started moving toward my FIRE plan which is somewhere around 80/10/10 equities/bonds/cash (about where I am at now) to maybe 70/20/10 at the most conservative.

I was wishing that I had 100% equity portfolio yesterday when the market reached a new high. Then I realized that I have been financially independent and I need to worry about the downturn, and find more interesting ways to actually spend money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 31, 2019, 11:26:31 AM

On moving to say, a 70/20/10 portfolio. Here's something I haven't quite answered definitively.
 Do bonds really help you that much in a downturn? Do they help you enough to outweigh the drag they put on your portfolio? And is the answer to this question different by portfolio size?
I think the 85/10/5 may be enough that it helps my draw down and tax strategy, but increasing the bonds doesn't necessarily give me much portfolio protection that's really needed? I need to probably spend more time thinking and modeling on this.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on October 31, 2019, 11:38:52 AM

While I can't cite it off the top of my head, I believe the research has shown that in the past, a small allocation to bonds definitely improves your risk-adjusted returns, and sometimes gives a higher overall return than 100% equities. That's in a theoretical investor, and this reasoning probably accounts for 1/3 of the reason I keep 20% in bonds even during accumulation.

But the other 2/3s of the reason I do it is for the psychological, n=1 reason that the success of my portfolio is going to be determined by my own actions to a large degree, and while I believe that I have a high tolerance for risk, I have not thoroughly tested that, plus I have a slightly more conservative spouse, so I believe that my own personal chance of success is higher if I keep a little bit of my stash out of the equities market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on October 31, 2019, 01:49:40 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 31, 2019, 11:26:31 AM

On moving to say, a 70/20/10 portfolio. Here's something I haven't quite answered definitively.
 Do bonds really help you that much in a downturn? Do they help you enough to outweigh the drag they put on your portfolio? And is the answer to this question different by portfolio size?
I think the 85/10/5 may be enough that it helps my draw down and tax strategy, but increasing the bonds doesn't necessarily give me much portfolio protection that's really needed? I need to probably spend more time thinking and modeling on this.

Yeah, I'm not gonna promise to know the answer or that my 70/20/10 is the 'right' one because it of course changes a lot over time.  Often bonds were thought to just be a 'slower moving' investment vehicle so though gains could be muted so would losses, but if rates rose quickly right now that of course could be incorrect.  Often bonds were thought of a good hedge for stocks as they'd usually be negatively correlated, but from what I remember in the 2008 drop they both got pummeled (same thought for real estate properties, but of course RE was killed then too in many places).  And one thing I noticed with backtesting was that the differences between 85/10/5 and 70/20/10 results were almost always not really that much.  I like having the 10 in cash probably for little reason other than a few years of cash would have gotten me thru the 2000 and 2007 downturns without having to sell equities at a bad loss, and those are the only big dops I've been investing thru in my lifetime.  And I fully admit switching some to cash now was probably easier to stomach with cash paying north of 2% as opposed to the 0% it was at for so long.

The big hedges (to me) are really things like owning a house (so I can;t get priced out of one now) and things like SS which will eventually kick in and last till death.  I considered increasing that pot of safety by buying an immediate lifetime annuity, but with rates so low and REing they are very expensive right now so don;t seem to make any sense.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 31, 2019, 02:25:12 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on October 31, 2019, 06:22:10 AM

How much umbrella insurance do you guys keep? I just got the renewal notice for my policy and am wondering if I need to increase my coverage.

I’m keeping our umbrella policy equal to or slightly ahead of our net worth, though past $3 million I don’t think I’ll bump it up further. We both serve on boards, and our policy provides an additional level of personal protection beyond the non-profits’ D&O insurance, and a base level of protection if they have no directors’ insurance. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 31, 2019, 02:44:30 PM

I keep about 1/3rd of my NW as umbrella coverage.

As 2/3rds of my NW is in house and 401k's which are not exposed in a lawsuit (in Theory) is seems to make sense to protect the assets that are not protected, which is about $1M in our case.

If and when I cease to be in the slumlord business I MAY cancel the umbrella policy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on October 31, 2019, 03:33:31 PM

The thing about an umbrella though is that it's not necessarily protecting any particular amount. I can't say that $1M is bare bones FIRE for my family, so I'll hold a $1M umbrella to protect that amount. If you have a successful claim of $3M, you're still going to have to pay out most of your otherwise unprotected assets. I mean, I did the same thing, bought a $1M umbrella when we reached $1M, though haven't pushed it higher with a further NW increase. But what we really need to know is claims data against individuals, what are the up bounds in like 95% of cases, and then just protect against that amount. The umbrella discussion comes up from time to time here, but I've never seen anyone present data to that effect, and don't really know where to look. It also may be highly variable by state, family composition, etc, but I'd still feel better know that 95% of claims are $X or less, and then hold an umbrella at $X or $X-(what I'm willing to lose in investments on an unlikely chance).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 31, 2019, 10:24:18 PM

Just to throw this out there, I've heard the opposite effect of holding umbrella insurance - that you can become a target of a lawsuit because now not only do you have actual money, you also have a first layer of 'other people's money' insurance.  Once the litigant finds out that you have an umbrella policy, they lawyer up much more than if you were just Joe No-mustachioso.  The data around implementation of an umbrella policies is really thin so I'm just self insuring (and having ready access to good lawyers) for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 01, 2019, 02:35:03 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 31, 2019, 10:24:18 PM

Just to throw this out there, I've heard the opposite effect of holding umbrella insurance - that you can become a target of a lawsuit because now not only do you have actual money, you also have a first layer of 'other people's money' insurance.  Once the litigant finds out that you have an umbrella policy, they lawyer up much more than if you were just Joe No-mustachioso.  The data around implementation of an umbrella policies is really thin so I'm just self insuring (and having ready access to good lawyers) for now.

I'm not sure about what you've "heard", but I do see cake. I'm sure I know what that means. Happy birthday,  EV2020!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 01, 2019, 03:19:56 AM

Good to see the board get active again. I am curious if people dont mind answering since things are change for us. In figuring your NW WITH your house and age. What % is your home. Mine is going to be doubling and I guess there is comfort in knowing.

I.E. My NW is in todays value $2,974,000.00

Ages 55/51
Home value will be 23-25% by the time we move and additional costs. Was around 10%

I am Fire'd work some part time gigs more in the summer now looking for another flip or?  and the DW still is working because she wants loves it  and for Healthcare etc..but mostly cuz she likes to. After tax and deductions net 3k a month she makes 20$ an hour. When contributing to 401k and HSA etc...more like 1200$ which is what we have always done but the last two months of this year I dont want to take out anymore money from our funds because of capital gains and I have enough to live on till our current house sells etc.. in cash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 01, 2019, 06:25:37 AM

Quote from: Dicey on November 01, 2019, 02:35:03 AM

I'm not sure about what you've "heard", but I do see cake. I'm sure I know what that means. Happy birthday,  EV2020!

@Dicey Indeed, and thanks!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 01, 2019, 07:48:19 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 01, 2019, 03:19:56 AM

Good to see the board get active again. I am curious if people dont mind answering since things are change for us. In figuring your NW WITH your house and age. What % is your home. Mine is going to be doubling and I guess there is comfort in knowing.

I.E. My NW is in todays value $2,974,000.00

Ages 55/51
Home value will be 23-25% by the time we move and additional costs. Was around 10%

I am Fire'd work some part time gigs more in the summer now looking for another flip or?  and the DW still is working because she wants loves it  and for Healthcare etc..but mostly cuz she likes to. After tax and deductions net 3k a month she makes 20$ an hour. When contributing to 401k and HSA etc...more like 1200$ which is what we have always done but the last two months of this year I dont want to take out anymore money from our funds because of capital gains and I have enough to live on till our current house sells etc.. in cash.

We bought an expensive new house in 2006 in a low cost living area. The house value did not appreciate a penny for the past 13 years. So the NW percentage decreased from about 38% to about 15%.
We did not make any money out of the house, but we did make a lot of happiness out of it, especially my wife.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on November 01, 2019, 08:06:33 AM

Jumped from $2.5M to $2.6M with a $50k dump into Schwab to collect the $200 bonus.  I would have invested anyways, but it's nice to get something coming in.

House (paid) is worth about $600k

62/58

I'm still working.  Wife is actually looking for a ft job.  Been per diem for years.  I have a "target" on my spread sheet that I had been upping $100k as I crossed the previous target.  Jumped it up as I crossed 2.6 to $2.75M.  Sounds better to me....two and three quarters.

In other news, my podiatrist says I need to buy some good, new walking shoes.  He was unimpressed with the Asics shoes I'm wearing.  I inherited these from my dad who passed in 2008.  I don't buy clothes. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on November 01, 2019, 09:25:28 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on November 01, 2019, 08:06:33 AM

In other news, my podiatrist says I need to buy some good, new walking shoes.  He was unimpressed with the Asics shoes I'm wearing.  I inherited these from my dad who passed in 2008.  I don't buy clothes.

Yeah, I don't generally buy clothes very often, but spend relatively plenty of research time and money on my Boots/shoes as I consider those a COMPLETELY different category.  I naturally over-pronate (even to the point of rolling my ankles probably a little too often), but have found Brooks brands generally good for that, e.g. 

I don't think Feet/Ankles/Knees/hip joints were ever 'designed' to last 70+ years and advanced longevity is really bringing out their weaknesses....

The new market highs have finally pushed my invested assets above $2.95M and my NW (which is that plus House, fairly unprofitable rental house, a DAF, and all the kids 529s) over $3.9M after approaching it quite a few times over the past year, so maybe my 'final' targets of $3M/$4M are just around the corner now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 01, 2019, 11:22:38 AM

Its always curious to me how to actually value a house, especially in our case where there are very few comps. So with the our house at best a SWAG..

$2.2M invested (crossed that boundary today)

$525k in pensions.. once gain funny money because we don't "own" that money.. it will pay $35k/year 3 years from now.

$ 450k house.

58/54 and FIREd

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 01, 2019, 11:30:19 AM

I treat my NW calculation a little different than most.
 We've got $2.5M invested. And that's what I use as our NW calculation for FIRE. But we've also got $60k in 529s for kids college, $14k in HSA for healthcare expense and $100k equity in our house. No pensions and only one of us will be eligible for SS.
We are both 42 with two elementary aged kids still under our roof.
We haven't RE'd yet. I'm shooting for May. DH is planning to keep going until kids are older. We are still wrapping our brains around the fact that we are FI. Likely very FI.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 02, 2019, 02:33:58 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 01, 2019, 11:30:19 AM

I treat my NW calculation a little different than most.
 We've got $2.5M invested. And that's what I use as our NW calculation for FIRE. But we've also got $60k in 529s for kids college, $14k in HSA for healthcare expense and $100k equity in our house. No pensions and only one of us will be eligible for SS.
We are both 42 with two elementary aged kids still under our roof.
We haven't RE'd yet. I'm shooting for May. DH is planning to keep going until kids are older. We are still wrapping our brains around the fact that we are FI. Likely very FI.

Yea i normally dont include my paid for house in my equation and definitely not my 529's or HSA. I was just curious more about % overall of peoples portfollio so mine going to be 25% with additional income coming in for a few years reducing my investment part I'll be fine and the new house will bring alot more happiness at least in theory by knowing where were going to be for the long haul and other reasons.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 02, 2019, 03:56:32 AM

Just updated data in Quicken which is my Saturday morning chore - we have $ 4.6 million invested (bank, liquid assets, IRA and 401k) - gulp! This does not include our fully paid off house and pensions. Our pensions (mainly my wife's really)  is likely to be quite a lot but I feel a bit uneasy about how much we can count on that.

I'm definitely done this coming year. Feeling a bit burned out on the software business in general. My wife is a senior exec in her company and intends to keep working - more power to her :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: trashtalk on November 02, 2019, 08:47:01 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 02, 2019, 03:56:32 AM

Just updated data in Quicken which is my Saturday morning chore - we have $ 4.6 million invested (bank, liquid assets, IRA and 401k) - gulp! This does not include our fully paid off house and pensions. Our pensions (mainly my wife's really)  is likely to be quite a lot but I feel a bit uneasy about how much we can count on that.

I'm definitely done this coming year. Feeling a bit burned out on the software business in general. My wife is a senior exec in her company and intends to keep working - more power to her :-)

Inspiring. Congrats to you and your wife on all your good choices paying off so handsomely.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 02, 2019, 10:08:57 AM

@2sk22 So $4.6M at 3% is $138,000 per year plus your pensions.

I think you're done dude!.. Well done!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 02, 2019, 10:30:23 AM

Our personal home would be worth 12% of our net worth if it were paid for.   As it is, it's worth 5.3%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 02, 2019, 11:32:20 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 02, 2019, 10:08:57 AM

@2sk22 So $4.6M at 3% is $138,000 per year plus your pensions.

I think you're done dude!.. Well done!

Thanks - I am definitely feeling done now :-)

This is mostly the result of steady automatic investment in index funds over 25 years. I still remember the moment it all began. In late 1993, I was walking down Broadway in the upper west side of NY City and bought a small book called "The Wall Street Journal Guide to Understanding Money and Investing" from a street vendor. I read through the book cover to cover and called Fidelity the next day to set up our account.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 02, 2019, 11:37:05 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 02, 2019, 11:32:20 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 02, 2019, 10:08:57 AM

@2sk22 So $4.6M at 3% is $138,000 per year plus your pensions.

I think you're done dude!.. Well done!

Thanks - I am definitely feeling done now :-)

This is mostly the result of steady automatic investment in index funds over 25 years. I still remember the moment it all began. In late 1993, I was walking down Broadway in the upper west side of NY City and bought a small book called "The Wall Street Journal Guide to Understanding Money and Investing" from a street vendor. I read through the book cover to cover and called Fidelity the next day to set up our account.

Nice I began something similar but it was in March 2003, the day after I paid off my house in fact.:)

Unlike you though, I quit almost 6 years ago (A couple of contract gigs were indulged in after I quit cus y'know.. Money)

Time to get out man.. way past time.. unless you love what you do of course.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 02, 2019, 12:50:07 PM

All you guys are doing very well.

The average salary is about $55,000 a year.  It's not easy to find because the articles that you find just love to present median data instead of averages.  Have you ever heard anyone say they are about "median?"  I'll bet you've heard it quite often when someone says they are an "average" person.

https://wallethacks.com/average-median-income-in-america/ (https://wallethacks.com/average-median-income-in-america/)

So $ 55,000 /.03 = $ 1,833,333

Taken another way $ 1,833,333 / $55,000 = 33 years of living as an average Joe.

Here's another good thing.  A lot of you are doing more than kicking back, watching the ball game and having a beer.  Your comments indicate that you are doing good in this world for others.

My hat's off to you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 02, 2019, 09:14:43 PM

I'm on the poor side of this group (I'm single - only one paycheck coming in) and my liquid assets are worth $1.86 million. My home equity is approx. another $350-400K
I'm about 85% equities

I just opened 4 business checking accounts in the last 2 months, and if I correctly jump through all the hoops, I hope to gain $2450 in bonuses from the banks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 02, 2019, 10:06:24 PM

Like John Bogle says in his book Enough, it doesn't really matter how much money you have once you hit your 4% (or even, maybe, FU money and a willingness to hustle).  It is a mindset.  There are people with craploads of money that feel like it is not enough, because they compare themselves to others and want for bigger 'boats, homes, second homes, etc.'.  It never ends for some people...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 03, 2019, 02:51:28 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 02, 2019, 09:14:43 PM

I'm on the poor side of this group (I'm single - only one paycheck coming in) and my liquid assets are worth $1.86 million. My home equity is approx. another $350-400K
I'm about 85% equities

I just opened 4 business checking accounts in the last 2 months, and if I correctly jump through all the hoops, I hope to gain $2450 in bonuses from the banks.

I'd definitely not say your on the poor side of the group being single with those assets and might be on the high side. Two incomes, being married and having kids doesn't equate to more money and in most cases probably less.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 03, 2019, 02:53:21 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 02, 2019, 10:06:24 PM

Like John Bogle says in his book Enough, it doesn't really matter how much money you have once you hit your 4% (or even, maybe, FU money and a willingness to hustle).  It is a mindset.  There are people with craploads of money that feel like it is not enough, because they compare themselves to others and want for bigger 'boats, homes, second homes, etc.'.  It never ends for some people...

It definitely ends for me. I think I have more than enough material stuff - We have one house and a couple of cars. No second house, no boats and definitely no planes :-) The money I've earned is mostly a matter of luck of being in the right field at the right time. In 1992, absolutely no one thought that machine learning would actually amount to anything. Now that it actually works, I'm getting increasingly alarmed that its being misused in some really bad ways.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: billsfan1_2000 on November 03, 2019, 05:40:36 AM

Where are you guys getting this 3% guaranteed annual return from?  What asset class is actually yielding that? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 03, 2019, 06:04:50 AM

I don't remember seeing any guarantees.  As I understand it the 3% is merely a hedge from the "standard" 4 percent.  This is from Trinity University:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_study (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_study)

Perhaps, only time will discredit the study. 

This s from the Wikipedia article:

Laurence Kotlikoff, advocate of the consumption smoothing theory of retirement planning, is even less kind to the 4% rule, saying that it "has no connection to economics.... economic theory says you need to adjust your spending based on the portfolio of assets you're holding. If you invest aggressively, you need to spend defensively. Notice that the 4 percent rule has no connection to the other rule—to target 85 percent of your preretirement income. The whole thing is made up out of the blue."[6]

So 3 percent could be considered the adjustment that Mr. Kotlikoff says you need.

I'm counting on Index Funds because the smart folks on this site seem to favor them.  Historical evidence bears out the 4 percent rule.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042415/what-average-annual-return-sp-500.asp (https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042415/what-average-annual-return-sp-500.asp)

Now!  This could all change with the next election as some presidential candidates are promoting taxes on "wall street speculation."  Statements are being made that taxes from equity gains should be taxed higher than 15 percent.  These higher taxes will lower the net returns.

The above was just a rehash of previous presentations.  Feel free to append or correct.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 03, 2019, 09:25:53 AM

Maybe folks in this club should think about how to spend more money.
If you don't spend, the portfolio will keep growing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 03, 2019, 09:39:35 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on November 03, 2019, 05:40:36 AM

Where are you guys getting this 3% guaranteed annual return from?  What asset class is actually yielding that?

No guarantees whatsoever.. None!

What HAS happened is on average the Stock market has returned a little over 10% per year and Bonds make about 3.5... Of course this has been the case since the early 1900's so included some pretty bloody awful times, yet still these amazing stock market returns happened.

Place your bets..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 03, 2019, 12:55:33 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 03, 2019, 09:39:35 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on November 03, 2019, 05:40:36 AM

Where are you guys getting this 3% guaranteed annual return from?  What asset class is actually yielding that?

No guarantees whatsoever.. None!

What HAS happened is on average the Stock market has returned a little over 10% per year and Bonds make about 3.5... Of course this has been the case since the early 1900's so included some pretty bloody awful times, yet still these amazing stock market returns happened.

Place your bets..:)

Or go make popcorn. Or both.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 03, 2019, 01:06:50 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 03, 2019, 09:25:53 AM

Maybe folks in this club should think about how to spend more money.
If you don't spend, the portfolio will keep growing.

Yes this is a giant conundrum for me (like a freaking GREAT problem to have).

I've mentioned this elsewhere but I'm 58 and currently draw 1.5%. When our pension kick in fully (4 years) our WR would be $zero based on our highest spending year so far.

So for spending what would make me happy?.. honestly spending doesn't make me happy so buying a fancy car/house/airplane won't do much for me.

The "best" I've come up with is to take long international trip in Business class.. But thats such a giant waste of money.

And round we go again..:)

I think I might do it for the next trip to Malaysia in April.. like JFDI and see how I feel.. Gulp!

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on November 03, 2019, 06:41:16 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 03, 2019, 01:06:50 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 03, 2019, 09:25:53 AM

Maybe folks in this club should think about how to spend more money.
If you don't spend, the portfolio will keep growing.

So for spending what would make me happy?.. honestly spending doesn't make me happy so buying a fancy car/house/airplane won't do much for me.

The "best" I've come up with is to take long international trip in Business class..

+1

This is the best way to “spend more money” that I’ve found as well. And not just for international flights. Business/first class is worth it for domestic flights too IMO

In other areas, spending more doesn’t correlate with much, if any benefit

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 04, 2019, 02:01:49 AM

Quote from: Dicey on November 03, 2019, 12:55:33 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 03, 2019, 09:39:35 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on November 03, 2019, 05:40:36 AM

Where are you guys getting this 3% guaranteed annual return from?  What asset class is actually yielding that?

No guarantees whatsoever.. None!

What HAS happened is on average the Stock market has returned a little over 10% per year and Bonds make about 3.5... Of course this has been the case since the early 1900's so included some pretty bloody awful times, yet still these amazing stock market returns happened.

Place your bets..:)

Or go make popcorn. Or both.

+1 , gotta have some kinda strategy so if 1% below the standard 4% is the comfort zone that much better!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: AM43 on November 04, 2019, 11:58:44 AM

Happy to join this race and I cant believe I am in "Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!"
Holy Shit!!
I am 48 and my spouse is 47.
2 kids 14 and 10.
Liquid assets: $1.1 mill
Real state: $ 1.2 mill not counting primary residence.
I am not including various other valuables for simplicity of calculations.
I have tens of thousands of dollars worth of tools and machinery, 2 vehicles  and some other valuables.
No loans, CC debt etc.
Debt:  $170.000  @ 2.5%
That puts us at approx. $2.1 mill

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: texxan1 on November 04, 2019, 10:24:25 PM

For the sake of the race, i will join in

Have aprox 2,026,00 in a combination of cash, taxable and non tax investments... plus a few boats, a small business that rocks and a paid off waterfront house in Texas... with owned assets, im around 2.6m.....

Single man, 47 about to call it quits in the next 6 months... holding out for the wheelbarrel full of cash from my day job.....

Soon to be, FIREDNFISHIN

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 05, 2019, 02:34:32 AM

Quote from: AM43 on November 04, 2019, 11:58:44 AM

Happy to join this race and I cant believe I am in "Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!"
Holy Shit!!
I am 48 and my spouse is 47.
2 kids 14 and 10.
Liquid assets: $1.1 mill
Real state: $ 1.2 mill not counting primary residence.
I am not including various other valuables for simplicity of calculations.
I have tens of thousands of dollars worth of tools and machinery, 2 vehicles  and some other valuables.
No loans, CC debt etc.
Debt:  $170.000  @ 2.5%
That puts us at approx. $2.1 mill

Welcome aboard - that's a great achievement and you have reached this point much sooner than I did!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 05, 2019, 03:03:34 AM

Welcome Newcomers! always good to see more

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 05, 2019, 04:54:35 PM

You know what is kind of good.  It looks like most of the people herein have put in the time and effort to earn this money.  I get the impression that most are honest hard working folks.  I guess the system still works,.......well sometimes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 06, 2019, 08:12:37 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 03, 2019, 01:06:50 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 03, 2019, 09:25:53 AM

Maybe folks in this club should think about how to spend more money.
If you don't spend, the portfolio will keep growing.

Yes this is a giant conundrum for me (like a freaking GREAT problem to have).

I've mentioned this elsewhere but I'm 58 and currently draw 1.5%. When our pension kick in fully (4 years) our WR would be $zero based on our highest spending year so far.

So for spending what would make me happy?.. honestly spending doesn't make me happy so buying a fancy car/house/airplane won't do much for me.

The "best" I've come up with is to take long international trip in Business class.. But thats such a giant waste of money.

And round we go again..:)

I think I might do it for the next trip to Malaysia in April.. like JFDI and see how I feel.. Gulp!

Your WR of 1.5% is beyond conservative as you certainly know. Do you have any plans to spend more money when you have time? or you just let the portfolio grow?

I cannot believe anyone claim that they could not find any way to spend their money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 06, 2019, 11:14:46 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 06, 2019, 08:12:37 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 03, 2019, 01:06:50 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 03, 2019, 09:25:53 AM

Maybe folks in this club should think about how to spend more money.
If you don't spend, the portfolio will keep growing.

Yes this is a giant conundrum for me (like a freaking GREAT problem to have).

I've mentioned this elsewhere but I'm 58 and currently draw 1.5%. When our pension kick in fully (4 years) our WR would be $zero based on our highest spending year so far.

So for spending what would make me happy?.. honestly spending doesn't make me happy so buying a fancy car/house/airplane won't do much for me.

The "best" I've come up with is to take long international trip in Business class.. But thats such a giant waste of money.

And round we go again..:)

I think I might do it for the next trip to Malaysia in April.. like JFDI and see how I feel.. Gulp!

Your WR of 1.5% is beyond conservative as you certainly know. Do you have any plans to spend more money when you have time? or you just let the portfolio grow?

I cannot believe anyone claim that they could not find any way to spend their money.

I'm retired so I have plenty of time to spend. As for plans.. Well we take one or two trips abroad once a year and I don't have any further plans over and above that.

It not that I am trying not to spend.. I just don't have anything I need.. Except maybe a lay flat bed on long flights.

I would point out that MMM himself still only spends $30k/year and we know his blog alone is pulling in over $400k annually. So I think my "problem" is tiny compared to his..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 06, 2019, 11:21:48 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 06, 2019, 11:14:46 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 06, 2019, 08:12:37 AM

Your WR of 1.5% is beyond conservative as you certainly know. Do you have any plans to spend more money when you have time? or you just let the portfolio grow?

I cannot believe anyone claim that they could not find any way to spend their money.

I'm retired so I have plenty of time to spend. As for plans.. Well we take one or two trips abroad once a year and I don't have any further plans over and above that.

It not that I am trying not to spend.. I just don't have anything I need.. Except maybe a lay flat bed on long flights.

I would point out that MMM himself still only spends $30k/year and we know his blog alone is pulling in over $400k annually. So I think my "problem" is tiny compared to his..:)

But what is the point of having that much money left?

I know having more money makes you feel safe. But I would like to find some ways to spend my money, much better than leave it to charity to spend on something/someone I don't know.

(I do have children who will get my money if I have something left).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 06, 2019, 11:43:29 AM

@flyingaway Yes your argument is not lost on me. I probably over saved before I quit work, but then I "only" had just over $1M at the time. I didn't know what my pensions would be worth and in time the stash has just grown all by itself.

No point in leaving money, but what is the point in spending on stuff that doesn't bring you pleasure?

So this is not a problem as such.. it just is.

If I do have a challenge its making cost less of a factor in purchase decisions. For example we live on a 5.5 acre ranch-ett. It has over an acre of grass to cut and we keep horses here.

One day this will be too much for us to maintain and I don't really like gardening anyway. We love living here so the obvious answer is to hire lawn care firm to take care of all of it.

We have two rentals.. one is a single wide trailer.. I would like to get out of that business, but for now we have great renters, so maybe when they are ready to move on we'll sell the trailer and have someone haul it away. It doesn't hurt that my pension from the UK fully matures in 2 years so that would be a perfect exit point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 06, 2019, 07:10:07 PM

Spending a lot of money on health insurance might become a necessity if the ACA and the subsidies are struck down by the Supreme Court

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 07, 2019, 07:26:27 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 06, 2019, 07:10:07 PM

Spending a lot of money on health insurance might become a necessity if the ACA and the subsidies are struck down by the Supreme Court

In that case, many people would be affected, and the people in this club would be OK.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 07, 2019, 12:03:29 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 07, 2019, 07:26:27 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 06, 2019, 07:10:07 PM

Spending a lot of money on health insurance might become a necessity if the ACA and the subsidies are struck down by the Supreme Court

In that case, many people would be affected, and the people in this club would be OK.

There was a pretty visceral reaction the last time they thought they were going to remove the ACA. I'm not sure the GOP would risk it.. Certainly not in an election year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 07, 2019, 04:05:28 PM

What if they get their buds in the courts to do this?  No political fallout.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 07, 2019, 04:08:50 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 07, 2019, 04:05:28 PM

What if they get their buds in the courts to do this?  No political fallout.

I'd love to see the result of that mid term election.. We'd have a 52 Trillion medicare for all "solution" in pretty quick order I would think..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on November 08, 2019, 07:24:09 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 06, 2019, 11:43:29 AM

If I do have a challenge its making cost less of a factor in purchase decisions. For example we live on a 5.5 acre ranch-ett. It has over an acre of grass to cut and we keep horses here.

One day this will be too much for us to maintain and I don't really like gardening anyway. We love living here so the obvious answer is to hire lawn care firm to take care of all of it.

A perfectly acceptable solution is to stake out a smaller lawn around the house and let the rest become a field.  I have a neighbor who did exactly that.  I've got a bit over 13 acres, but it's mostly forest with a small lawn.  Because someone would have to trespass to complain about it, I let it get pretty high before cutting.  The up sides to that include that when Mr. and Mrs. Perfect down the street with their $300 a month watering bill can't keep up with the mid summer sun and their lawn becomes a big brown patch, mine is just fine with 5 inch blades shading itself.  Cutting it down to 3" keeps it really nice and green.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on November 08, 2019, 08:50:22 AM

Just looked at our numbers, and we are closing in on $4M. Of course, much of that is tied up in our primary residence (plan to relocate to MCOL after kids are out of the house) & a vacation property (no plans to sell).

I calculated how each component of our "portfolio" factors into overall net worth (rounding)
36% - primary residence
13% - vacation house
41% - retirement accounts
10% - cash/other investment accounts

It's unpopular, but given the size/value of our primary residence, we will continue to funnel money into paying that down, while also increasing our non retirement accounts. (We will of course continue to max tax advantaged retirement accounts + back door options.)

We've also just "realized" (not a surprise, but snuck up on us a bit) that our oldest child has only 4.5 years of school left, so time to get a bit more serious about college savings. We don't factor those numbers into our net worth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 08, 2019, 05:48:01 PM

House                        6.37%
Real Estate Investments     36.55%
Cash                         3.15%
Stocks/Bonds                52.81%
Other                        1.12%


Will be selling 2 houses in the next few months, so Real Estate Investments will drop to about 33% and cash or stocks/bonds will rise.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: dogboyslim on November 11, 2019, 08:40:19 AM

Primary home: 15%
60/40 Equity/Bond Retirement funds: 73%
60/40 Bond/Equity AT funds: 12%

We have about 50k in cash, but I don't include it or any of my other assets in my total.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 11, 2019, 10:24:22 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on November 08, 2019, 08:50:22 AM

We've also just "realized" (not a surprise, but snuck up on us a bit) that our oldest child has only 4.5 years of school left, so time to get a bit more serious about college savings. We don't factor those numbers into our net worth.

Paying for kids college is when you will really feel the need for cash! What's your strategy going to be? HELOCs?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 12, 2019, 12:27:43 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on November 08, 2019, 08:50:22 AM

Just looked at our numbers, and we are closing in on $4M. Of course, much of that is tied up in our primary residence (plan to relocate to MCOL after kids are out of the house) & a vacation property (no plans to sell).

I calculated how each component of our "portfolio" factors into overall net worth (rounding)
36% - primary residence
13% - vacation house
41% - retirement accounts
10% - cash/other investment accounts

It's unpopular, but given the size/value of our primary residence, we will continue to funnel money into paying that down, while also increasing our non retirement accounts. (We will of course continue to max tax advantaged retirement accounts + back door options.)

We've also just "realized" (not a surprise, but snuck up on us a bit) that our oldest child has only 4.5 years of school left, so time to get a bit more serious about college savings. We don't factor those numbers into our net worth.

Your mortgage is probably cheaper than any college loan you might get. Maybe funnel money into the college fund instead of the mortgage??

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 12, 2019, 02:54:44 AM

I read somewhere that the University of Chicago is the first school to top the 100k mark per year starting this next year. Wether true or not being the only one I dont get why anyone would pay more than a 1/3 of that if not 1/4 or less. Insane. A kid on my DS soccer team got an offer to play at Loyola and they gave him a 65% scholarship and he still declined and is going to Madison instead to play because its still cheaper. Loyola is 70+k a year. So yea, if your paying for kids college be prepared go where they get the most $ and its the cheapest or will put a big dent in your retirement

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 12, 2019, 07:31:52 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 12, 2019, 02:54:44 AM

I read somewhere that the University of Chicago is the first school to top the 100k mark per year starting this next year. Wether true or not being the only one I dont get why anyone would pay more than a 1/3 of that if not 1/4 or less. Insane. A kid on my DS soccer team got an offer to play at Loyola and they gave him a 65% scholarship and he still declined and is going to Madison instead to play because its still cheaper. Loyola is 70+k a year. So yea, if your paying for kids college be prepared go where they get the most $ and its the cheapest or will put a big dent in your retirement

My cousin's kids had a similar but opposite story. One went to UCLA, paying in-state tuition. The other went to Brown on an athletic scholarship. The one at the in-state school paid more OOP than the one at the super-expensive Ivy League school. Interestingly, Brown has a one-year (aka "fifth year") master's program, only or their own undergraduate students. Sure, it's expensive, but you're out and working in half the time.

Conclusion: the U.S. college system is second only to our health care system in all its Byzantine glory.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 12, 2019, 11:25:43 AM

Quote from: Dicey on November 12, 2019, 07:31:52 AM

Conclusion: the U.S. college system is second only to our health care system in all its Byzantine glory.

Aint that true! As I have mentioned on other topics, anyone with kids heading to college in a few years should be on the College Confidential parent forum to get a better understanding of the options. You need to start setting expectations very early to avoid anguished scenes in the final year of high school. I say this with experience - one daughter finishing college next year and another starting year after next :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 12, 2019, 11:43:59 AM

At least going to college is optional.. Healthcare largely is not!

I don't think I would be heading to college today honestly.. Far better deals to be had in the trades. Yeah the work might suck but you could retire in 10 years.. Under water welder, regular welder, plumber, electrician etc.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 12, 2019, 05:31:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 12, 2019, 11:43:59 AM

At least going to college is optional.. Healthcare largely is not!

I don't think I would be heading to college today honestly.. Far better deals to be had in the trades. Yeah the work might suck but you could retire in 10 years.. Under water welder, regular welder, plumber, electrician etc.

The work might always suck.  I see a lot of posts from computer geeks on this site who are not overly enamored with their jobs.  One of the great things about the jobs you noted is that you get paid for every hour you work.  Work in excess of 40 hours is paid more.  The other extreme is the professional.  You are effectively paid less after 40 hours per unit time.

Yet, you don't see too many guys from the trades posting herein.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 13, 2019, 04:07:35 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 12, 2019, 11:25:43 AM

Quote from: Dicey on November 12, 2019, 07:31:52 AM

Conclusion: the U.S. college system is second only to our health care system in all its Byzantine glory.

Aint that true! As I have mentioned on other topics, anyone with kids heading to college in a few years should be on the College Confidential parent forum to get a better understanding of the options. You need to start setting expectations very early to avoid anguished scenes in the final year of high school. I say this with experience - one daughter finishing college next year and another starting year after next :-)

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 12, 2019, 11:43:59 AM

At least going to college is optional.. Healthcare largely is not!

I don't think I would be heading to college today honestly.. Far better deals to be had in the trades. Yeah the work might suck but you could retire in 10 years.. Under water welder, regular welder, plumber, electrician etc.

Quote from: pecunia on November 12, 2019, 05:31:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 12, 2019, 11:43:59 AM

At least going to college is optional.. Healthcare largely is not!

I don't think I would be heading to college today honestly.. Far better deals to be had in the trades. Yeah the work might suck but you could retire in 10 years.. Under water welder, regular welder, plumber, electrician etc.

The work might always suck.  I see a lot of posts from computer geeks on this site who are not overly enamored with their jobs.  One of the great things about the jobs you noted is that you get paid for every hour you work.  Work in excess of 40 hours is paid more.  The other extreme is the professional.  You are effectively paid less after 40 hours per unit time.

Yet, you don't see too many guys from the trades posting herein.

Quote from: Dicey on November 12, 2019, 07:31:52 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 12, 2019, 02:54:44 AM

I read somewhere that the University of Chicago is the first school to top the 100k mark per year starting this next year. Wether true or not being the only one I dont get why anyone would pay more than a 1/3 of that if not 1/4 or less. Insane. A kid on my DS soccer team got an offer to play at Loyola and they gave him a 65% scholarship and he still declined and is going to Madison instead to play because its still cheaper. Loyola is 70+k a year. So yea, if your paying for kids college be prepared go where they get the most $ and its the cheapest or will put a big dent in your retirement

My cousin's kids had a similar but opposite story. One went to UCLA, paying in-state tuition. The other went to Brown on an athletic scholarship. The one at the in-state school paid more OOP than the one at the super-expensive Ivy League school. Interestingly, Brown has a one-year (aka "fifth year") master's program, only or their own undergraduate students. Sure, it's expensive, but you're out and working in half the time.

Conclusion: the U.S. college system is second only to our health care system in all its Byzantine glory.

I see that with My oldest in College. He was on scholarship for sports and after two years was sick of the demands so now a "regular' student. Hes working and paying his way but now taking on Fafsa debt as the first two years even with scholarship money it still cost some. But it will take him another year now so there is more cost and he seems to like to do stuff with his hands more so I agree totally with the trades. The key with the trades is being smart enough during the down times to have some business sense and to build a good reputation for yourself because when the Housing industry crashes a lot of trades people really really suffer. Commercial too. But thats like anything.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 13, 2019, 11:00:35 AM

In my opinion, college expenses have been increasing at a crazy rate because student loans are readily available. Many students do not have a sense of loans and they just go for the maximum loans available. They do not seem to care that the loans need to be repaid in the future. Accordingly, universities have been upgraded to serve students with easy money in their hands.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 13, 2019, 05:09:43 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 13, 2019, 11:00:35 AM

In my opinion, college expenses have been increasing at a crazy rate because student loans are readily available. Many students do not have a sense of loans and they just go for the maximum loans available. They do not seem to care that the loans need to be repaid in the future. Accordingly, universities have been upgraded to serve students with easy money in their hands.

What are those "upgrades?"  Do they have better libraries in the past, better laboratories, more programs?  Is the extra money providing additional services to the students?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 13, 2019, 07:25:30 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 13, 2019, 05:09:43 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 13, 2019, 11:00:35 AM

In my opinion, college expenses have been increasing at a crazy rate because student loans are readily available. Many students do not have a sense of loans and they just go for the maximum loans available. They do not seem to care that the loans need to be repaid in the future. Accordingly, universities have been upgraded to serve students with easy money in their hands.

What are those "upgrades?"  Do they have better libraries in the past, better laboratories, more programs?  Is the extra money providing additional services to the students?

Mostly infrastructures, new lavish student center, many buildings of expensive student dorms, a lot of more supporting staffs. Sorry, no increase in the number of professors. (I am a professor). The public universities are now run like a company. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 13, 2019, 08:56:11 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 13, 2019, 07:25:30 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 13, 2019, 05:09:43 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 13, 2019, 11:00:35 AM

In my opinion, college expenses have been increasing at a crazy rate because student loans are readily available. Many students do not have a sense of loans and they just go for the maximum loans available. They do not seem to care that the loans need to be repaid in the future. Accordingly, universities have been upgraded to serve students with easy money in their hands.

What are those "upgrades?"  Do they have better libraries in the past, better laboratories, more programs?  Is the extra money providing additional services to the students?

Mostly infrastructures, new lavish student center, many buildings of expensive student dorms, a lot of more supporting staffs. Sorry, no increase in the number of professors. (I am a professor). The public universities are now run like a company.

I have a Prof friend of mine at Oregon State who would agree with you!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: RWD on November 13, 2019, 08:59:42 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 13, 2019, 08:56:11 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 13, 2019, 07:25:30 PM

Mostly infrastructures, new lavish student center, many buildings of expensive student dorms, a lot of more supporting staffs. Sorry, no increase in the number of professors. (I am a professor). The public universities are now run like a company.

I have a Prof friend of mine at Oregon State who would agree with you!

The Kelley Engineering Center is really cool though!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 14, 2019, 02:30:52 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 13, 2019, 08:56:11 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 13, 2019, 07:25:30 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 13, 2019, 05:09:43 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 13, 2019, 11:00:35 AM

In my opinion, college expenses have been increasing at a crazy rate because student loans are readily available. Many students do not have a sense of loans and they just go for the maximum loans available. They do not seem to care that the loans need to be repaid in the future. Accordingly, universities have been upgraded to serve students with easy money in their hands.

What are those "upgrades?"  Do they have better libraries in the past, better laboratories, more programs?  Is the extra money providing additional services to the students?

Mostly infrastructures, new lavish student center, many buildings of expensive student dorms, a lot of more supporting staffs. Sorry, no increase in the number of professors. (I am a professor). The public universities are now run like a company.

I have a Prof friend of mine at Oregon State who would agree with you!

Thats all it is. Both the schools my 2 oldest go to our loaded with cranes building foo foo living type facilities and alot of shopping centers with apartments above them. New social study areas with fancy chairs etc... Some of its pretty cool and neat to see but its not worth what its doing in raising the schools rates.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on November 14, 2019, 08:56:23 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 13, 2019, 08:56:11 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 13, 2019, 07:25:30 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 13, 2019, 05:09:43 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 13, 2019, 11:00:35 AM

In my opinion, college expenses have been increasing at a crazy rate because student loans are readily available. Many students do not have a sense of loans and they just go for the maximum loans available. They do not seem to care that the loans need to be repaid in the future. Accordingly, universities have been upgraded to serve students with easy money in their hands.

What are those "upgrades?"  Do they have better libraries in the past, better laboratories, more programs?  Is the extra money providing additional services to the students?

Mostly infrastructures, new lavish student center, many buildings of expensive student dorms, a lot of more supporting staffs. Sorry, no increase in the number of professors. (I am a professor). The public universities are now run like a company.

I have a Prof friend of mine at Oregon State who would agree with you!

That is the majority of where the money goes.  But the issue with student loans is twofold:(1) is what Exflyboy said above and (2) the fact that the loans are government backed and can't be discharged in bankruptcy.   No lender in the f'ing mind would lend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to an 17-23 year old.  So the government enacted these policies to expand education to the masses, so here we are - unintended consequences.   If the government wants to play a roll then they should play both sides of it - give the loans and govern restrict the colleges/universities.  Not sure how that would happen.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 14, 2019, 10:17:05 AM

I know a medical school professor who probably makes more than $400K a year. His two children go to medical schools with the maximum loans that they could get.

Why? because the loans could be forgiven in the future (by working at not-for-profit hospitals for a few years).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 15, 2019, 03:47:04 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 14, 2019, 10:17:05 AM

I know a medical school professor who probably makes more than $400K a year. His two children go to medical schools with the maximum loans that they could get.

Why? because the loans could be forgiven in the future (by working at not-for-profit hospitals for a few years).

I am surprised the kids didnt go to school where he is a professor and get free College. I was always under the impression that was one of the biggest perks of being a professor.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on November 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 12, 2019, 05:31:44 PM

The work might always suck.  I see a lot of posts from computer geeks on this site who are not overly enamored with their jobs.  One of the great things about the jobs you noted is that you get paid for every hour you work.  Work in excess of 40 hours is paid more.  The other extreme is the professional.  You are effectively paid less after 40 hours per unit time.

Any computer geek working on salary is doing it wrong. Go contracting. Work from home. Bill by the hour.

Quote

Yet, you don't see too many guys from the trades posting herein.

Partly a class thing? Also, they really don't make a lot of money. An electrician can make about $30/hour. An engineer or computer geek > $100/hour.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 15, 2019, 10:12:54 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 15, 2019, 03:47:04 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 14, 2019, 10:17:05 AM

I know a medical school professor who probably makes more than $400K a year. His two children go to medical schools with the maximum loans that they could get.

Why? because the loans could be forgiven in the future (by working at not-for-profit hospitals for a few years).

I am surprised the kids didnt go to school where he is a professor and get free College. I was always under the impression that was one of the biggest perks of being a professor.

Rich people are willing to spend money to send their kids to better schools.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 15, 2019, 10:20:29 AM

 "not for profit" hospitals are as big of fallacy as "not for profit" universities.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on November 15, 2019, 11:13:28 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 13, 2019, 05:09:43 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 13, 2019, 11:00:35 AM

In my opinion, college expenses have been increasing at a crazy rate because student loans are readily available. Many students do not have a sense of loans and they just go for the maximum loans available. They do not seem to care that the loans need to be repaid in the future. Accordingly, universities have been upgraded to serve students with easy money in their hands.

What are those "upgrades?"  Do they have better libraries in the past, better laboratories, more programs?  Is the extra money providing additional services to the students?

At my alma mater, president makes over a million dollars a year and has added a new layer of top executives between her and the traditional next layer.  They're also on a building spree and have taken the limit on student admissions, leading to lack of adequate housing on campus, lack of space in the library for everyone to work in, as they had in the past and a stated, new discrimination policy for admissions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 15, 2019, 03:22:43 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on November 15, 2019, 11:13:28 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 13, 2019, 05:09:43 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 13, 2019, 11:00:35 AM

In my opinion, college expenses have been increasing at a crazy rate because student loans are readily available. Many students do not have a sense of loans and they just go for the maximum loans available. They do not seem to care that the loans need to be repaid in the future. Accordingly, universities have been upgraded to serve students with easy money in their hands.

What are those "upgrades?"  Do they have better libraries in the past, better laboratories, more programs?  Is the extra money providing additional services to the students?

At my alma mater, president makes over a million dollars a year and has added a new layer of top executives between her and the traditional next layer.  They're also on a building spree and have taken the limit on student admissions, leading to lack of adequate housing on campus, lack of space in the library for everyone to work in, as they had in the past and a stated, new discrimination policy for admissions.

The building where my DD is off the charts as well. Every year seems to be a new record for Freshman class and they have added at least a half dozen new types of places to live in the last two years and these are very large ones. One thing that has attracted the growth is they haven't raised tuition in the last 6 years and its a highly regarded school. But still to $ in my view

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 15, 2019, 04:24:48 PM

And the hits just keep coming,.......

The Dow Jones hits a new high!

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/dow-marches-towards-28000-with-big-boost-from-one-company (https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/dow-marches-towards-28000-with-big-boost-from-one-company)

In between pictures of the Donald, this article makes the bod claim that the recession may not be in the near future.

I'm thinkin' the powers at be will keep the stock market slowly climbing until the November 2020 election.  It will get people to vote their way.

After that they will sell off their holdings and the apocalypse will arrive.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 15, 2019, 07:51:11 PM

But just think how much money we can make by holding firm through the apocalypse and climbing up the other side..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 15, 2019, 09:43:22 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 15, 2019, 04:24:48 PM

And the hits just keep coming,.......

The Dow Jones hits a new high!

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/dow-marches-towards-28000-with-big-boost-from-one-company (https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/dow-marches-towards-28000-with-big-boost-from-one-company)

In between pictures of the Donald, this article makes the bod claim that the recession may not be in the near future.

I'm thinkin' the powers at be will keep the stock market slowly climbing until the November 2020 election.  It will get people to vote their way.

After that they will sell off their holdings and the apocalypse will arrive.

Stock market highs based on a government deficit, trade deficits, QE, and lower interest rates are just adding to the wealth gap at this point - the people that were rich are getting way richer way faster, the people that were hanging on are still barely hanging on.  The apocalypse, this time, might even be worse than too big to fail, which is why it is good to not need to rely on wealth.  But most wealthy folks have already diversified into real assets (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-rich-are-hoarding-cash-111654149.html), I don't think selling their stock is a big priority.  When you get so much net worth really quickly, it doesn't feel like a bad idea to shelter it, even if you miss out on some extra.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 16, 2019, 04:07:04 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 15, 2019, 09:43:22 PM

I don't think selling their stock is a big priority.  When you get so much net worth really quickly, it doesn't feel like a bad idea to shelter it, even if you miss out on some extra.

I think you have touched upon something important here. I was used to watching my net worth creeping upwards at a painfully slow rate for many years. This was the case despite never stopping my automatic investments even through 2008 and 2009. Even ten years ago, I used to worry a lot about having enough for retirement.

Two things happened in the past ten years - my field of work suddenly became hot (salary really jumped) and the stock market started rising inexorably (QE definitely has some role this as @EscapeVelocity2020 suggests).

I still have this uneasy feeling of easy-come-easy-go. Compared to most people here, I have way more invested in cash/CDs./Bonds

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 16, 2019, 08:33:34 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 16, 2019, 04:07:04 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 15, 2019, 09:43:22 PM

I don't think selling their stock is a big priority.  When you get so much net worth really quickly, it doesn't feel like a bad idea to shelter it, even if you miss out on some extra.

I think you have touched upon something important here. I was used to watching my net worth creeping upwards at a painfully slow rate for many years. This was the case despite never stopping my automatic investments even through 2008 and 2009. Even ten years ago, I used to worry a lot about having enough for retirement.

Two things happened in the past ten years - my field of work suddenly became hot (salary really jumped) and the stock market started rising inexorably (QE definitely has some role this as @EscapeVelocity2020 suggests).

I still have this uneasy feeling of easy-come-easy-go. Compared to most people here, I have way more invested in cash/CDs./Bonds

i am pretty high in Cash and Cd's as well , maybe not as much as you BUT everyone has got to do what helps them sleep at night.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 16, 2019, 11:25:10 AM

Quote from: lhamo on November 16, 2019, 10:36:53 AM

I had some investments in a taxable account roll into LTCG territory a couple of weeks ago -- I cashed out a little bit.  We have WAAAAAY more in cash than probably anyone here, but for various reasons I am comfortable with that and also wanted to lock in some of the gains.  We are technically still within the original parameters of this thread, but if things don't level off or drop soon we may need to bump up another notch....

You mean you are beyond "beyond"?..

A bit like the financial version of Buzz Lightyear..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 16, 2019, 11:44:46 AM

Upon crossing another milestone 2.25M liquid, I should be all giddy and jumping with joy for soon to come FIRE.  Hell no, I'm more skeptical than ever.  The last 250k came too fast and easy.  I'm afarid it could evanesce.  QE inflates the bubble even thinner. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 16, 2019, 12:41:41 PM

Probably a good time to re-balance back to ones desired allocation.. Maybe even a little insurance beyond that.

Can always pile back into equities when the market eventually tanks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: alienbogey on November 16, 2019, 10:56:31 PM

That sounds suspiciously like market timing to me.

On the other hand, I have to agree with the feeling that this bull market has to stop sometime.  But if the next bear market and/or recession is due to QE then I can't see how to avoid inflation that will make the '70's look like the good old days.

And if inflation does go off like a volcano the last things I want to be in is cash or bonds.  I'll just stick with equities and go with the MMM mantra of riding out the storm.

My 2 cents (in today's dollars).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 17, 2019, 09:20:04 AM

Quote from: alienbogey on November 16, 2019, 10:56:31 PM

That sounds suspiciously like market timing to me.

On the other hand, I have to agree with the feeling that this bull market has to stop sometime.  But if the next bear market and/or recession is due to QE then I can't see how to avoid inflation that will make the '70's look like the good old days.

And if inflation does go off like a volcano the last things I want to be in is cash or bonds.  I'll just stick with equities and go with the MMM mantra of riding out the storm.

My 2 cents (in today's dollars).

Maybe, the low inflation is because people put their money in stock market. If they pull the money out of the stock market and start buying things, you will see inflation rise quickly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 17, 2019, 10:53:17 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 17, 2019, 09:20:04 AM

Quote from: alienbogey on November 16, 2019, 10:56:31 PM

That sounds suspiciously like market timing to me.

On the other hand, I have to agree with the feeling that this bull market has to stop sometime.  But if the next bear market and/or recession is due to QE then I can't see how to avoid inflation that will make the '70's look like the good old days.

And if inflation does go off like a volcano the last things I want to be in is cash or bonds.  I'll just stick with equities and go with the MMM mantra of riding out the storm.

My 2 cents (in today's dollars).

Maybe, the low inflation is because people put their money in stock market. If they pull the money out of the stock market and start buying things, you will see inflation rise quickly.

I like your theory.  Starting to convince myself to work till 55 in 2023.  If that's the case, I'm keeping the fire hose flowing into stocks and REITs. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 17, 2019, 12:59:17 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 17, 2019, 10:53:17 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 17, 2019, 09:20:04 AM

Quote from: alienbogey on November 16, 2019, 10:56:31 PM

That sounds suspiciously like market timing to me.

On the other hand, I have to agree with the feeling that this bull market has to stop sometime.  But if the next bear market and/or recession is due to QE then I can't see how to avoid inflation that will make the '70's look like the good old days.

And if inflation does go off like a volcano the last things I want to be in is cash or bonds.  I'll just stick with equities and go with the MMM mantra of riding out the storm.

My 2 cents (in today's dollars).

Maybe, the low inflation is because people put their money in stock market. If they pull the money out of the stock market and start buying things, you will see inflation rise quickly.

I like your theory.  Starting to convince myself to work till 55 in 2023.  If that's the case, I'm keeping the fire hose flowing into stocks and REITs.

I don't know what you expect to spend in a year but honestly at $2.25M your risk of being dead is outweighing your risk of being broke!

I'm in a similar situation so I'm saying this to myself as much as I am you!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: frugalecon on November 17, 2019, 03:00:29 PM

Joining the race...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 17, 2019, 03:12:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 17, 2019, 12:59:17 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 17, 2019, 10:53:17 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 17, 2019, 09:20:04 AM

Quote from: alienbogey on November 16, 2019, 10:56:31 PM

That sounds suspiciously like market timing to me.

On the other hand, I have to agree with the feeling that this bull market has to stop sometime.  But if the next bear market and/or recession is due to QE then I can't see how to avoid inflation that will make the '70's look like the good old days.

And if inflation does go off like a volcano the last things I want to be in is cash or bonds.  I'll just stick with equities and go with the MMM mantra of riding out the storm.

My 2 cents (in today's dollars).

Maybe, the low inflation is because people put their money in stock market. If they pull the money out of the stock market and start buying things, you will see inflation rise quickly.

I like your theory.  Starting to convince myself to work till 55 in 2023.  If that's the case, I'm keeping the fire hose flowing into stocks and REITs.

I don't know what you expect to spend in a year but honestly at $2.25M your risk of being dead is outweighing your risk of being broke!

I'm in a similar situation so I'm saying this to myself as much as I am you!

I’m with ExFlyboy! Life is way too short to spend your time trying to save for every possible scenario. Just a few short months ago I thought like that too. I was extremely risk adverse. But I’ve seen the light and realized that the worst thing that could happen is that we end up dead with a pile of money and not have time to do the things we love and with the people we love.
Just think about that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 17, 2019, 03:19:25 PM

Quote from: frugalecon on November 17, 2019, 03:00:29 PM

Joining the race...

Welcome to the old farts club. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 17, 2019, 03:23:22 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 17, 2019, 03:12:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 17, 2019, 12:59:17 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 17, 2019, 10:53:17 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 17, 2019, 09:20:04 AM

Quote from: alienbogey on November 16, 2019, 10:56:31 PM

That sounds suspiciously like market timing to me.

On the other hand, I have to agree with the feeling that this bull market has to stop sometime.  But if the next bear market and/or recession is due to QE then I can't see how to avoid inflation that will make the '70's look like the good old days.

And if inflation does go off like a volcano the last things I want to be in is cash or bonds.  I'll just stick with equities and go with the MMM mantra of riding out the storm.

My 2 cents (in today's dollars).

Maybe, the low inflation is because people put their money in stock market. If they pull the money out of the stock market and start buying things, you will see inflation rise quickly.

I like your theory.  Starting to convince myself to work till 55 in 2023.  If that's the case, I'm keeping the fire hose flowing into stocks and REITs.

I don't know what you expect to spend in a year but honestly at $2.25M your risk of being dead is outweighing your risk of being broke!

I'm in a similar situation so I'm saying this to myself as much as I am you!

I’m with ExFlyboy! Life is way too short to spend your time trying to save for every possible scenario. Just a few short months ago I thought like that too. I was extremely risk adverse. But I’ve seen the light and realized that the worst thing that could happen is that we end up dead with a pile of money and not have time to do the things we love and with the people we love.
Just think about that.

Love the opinions you guys shared.  Very true, very valuable advice.   It's possible I'm just too dang lazy to FIRE.  It's easy to just stay in accumulation mode. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 17, 2019, 04:04:51 PM

I'm kind of in a halfway house. I'm still working some, and I enjoy the work I do. It gives some structure to my life, and it's partly my social life as well. 
So I don't mind my work. As a consequence of it, I'm also accumulating some money, though not as much as when I was full time.

One of my part time jobs is teaching yoga and I'm hoping that job will enable me to receive a subsidized premium retiree health insurance when I'm 60 years old.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 17, 2019, 04:07:41 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 17, 2019, 03:12:03 PM

I’m with ExFlyboy! Life is way too short to spend your time trying to save for every possible scenario. Just a few short months ago I thought like that too. I was extremely risk adverse. But I’ve seen the light and realized that the worst thing that could happen is that we end up dead with a pile of money and not have time to do the things we love and with the people we love.
Just think about that.

I know that the bolded part is just shorthand, a black and white argument for ER, but there is so much gray in there.  That right balance is the hardest thing to predict (and maybe it is good that we don't get to know too much), the trade-off of future free time vs. financial security.  We know where we are today - doing well with the money - but it is impossible to know exactly how much future time we need.  If we are employees, then we might not need 100% retirement just to be a lot happier right away; like maybe 50% more time is enough.  Especially if 50% more time could come with some dependable income and somewhat full benefits (retirement, insurance, healthcare, paid expenses like travel or higher education...). 

I'm hoping that future generations get a more flexible solution to this employment / ER conundrum.  We seem to be the unfortunate generation that gets stuck with the legacy working situation from the past which doesn't really fit what can be efficient and effective.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 17, 2019, 07:10:01 PM

Of course the Healthcare trap is a uniquely US barrier to walking out the door or to work say half time where you presumably wouldn't get HC bennies.

The obvious way around this is to have of a stash to fully fund your desired level of Care. For us (a couple of 58 and 54) this is about $15,000/year in premiums plus an extra $15k for the coinsurance for every year you might get sick.

So roughly half a million$ in extra stash should do it for right now and one hopes that half mil would grow to keep pace with increasing HC costs up age 65.

Emigration is another option of course.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 18, 2019, 12:29:15 AM

It really is health care that is scaring me right now.  My wife just had surgery on a hand and elbow.  She's not been able to work for a month now.  She's going to try to go back next week.  The recovery will be one year plus and she needs surgery on the other hand.  Our 26 year old cancer survivor son, needs a second hip replacement.  He's had one side done already.  He's off our insurance and just received notice, that he'll be laid off from his job as a local news producer.  New technology just wiped away 50 percent of the employees.  With his health liability he was on the cut list.  He's on the ACA with decent subsidy.  We'll soon see how well that works.  So yeah, medical bankruptcy fear in the good old USA is why I'll be working till 2023.  It just seems foolish to quit my good paying job when we've already lost the healthy and lucky lottery.  I'm going to knock the shit out of the next asshole that bashes Obamacare or Medicare for all. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 18, 2019, 08:43:12 AM

It seems like a Democrat could win the election by just running a campaign on preserving and improving the health care safety net.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 09:04:48 AM

Health insurance is also a problem for us. We could retire and buy my employer's health insurance for about $16,000 per year, adding co-pay and deductibles would push us to $20,000 per year. I know we might get cheaper health insurance with ACA, but neither my employer nor ACA could be counted to last us until medicare 10 years away. Even medicare may be underfunded in the future.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 09:09:26 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 18, 2019, 08:43:12 AM

It seems like a Democrat could win the election by just running a campaign on preserving and improving the health care safety net.

IMHO, they would not win with health care only. Because most Americans have private health insurance with their jobs. They don't want to pay additional taxes for other people's health insurance.
Unless, of course, all employers are not allowed to provide health insurance. That would be a dramatic change.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 18, 2019, 09:44:20 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 09:04:48 AM

Health insurance is also a problem for us. We could retire and buy my employer's health insurance for about $16,000 per year, adding co-pay and deductibles would push us to $20,000 per year. I know we might get cheaper health insurance with ACA, but neither my employer nor ACA could be counted to last us until medicare 10 years away. Even medicare may be underfunded in the future.

Thats about what we are paying for a Bronze plan for two of us of a similar age under the ACA with about a $7500 each coinsurance.

So the plan itself would not likely be cheaper, prior to subsidies at least.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 18, 2019, 10:14:42 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 09:09:26 AM

- SNIP -

IMHO, they would not win with health care only. Because most Americans have private health insurance with their jobs. They don't want to pay additional taxes for other people's health insurance.
Unless, of course, all employers are not allowed to provide health insurance. That would be a dramatic change.

If someone could just get them to sit down to look at the numbers, it could be seen that they are paying the health care via government for a good many now.  The numbers should show a net savings to most individuals.

I'm trying to do what Ex-Flyboy suggests and have a stash available. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: dogboyslim on November 18, 2019, 10:22:42 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 09:09:26 AM

Unless, of course, all employers are not allowed to provide health insurance. That would be a dramatic change.

At the risk of going off topic, this is what needs to happen if you want a robust private market that can handle risk appropriately.  Right now, the healthier risks are in the employer provided plans, so the individual plans face a higher risk, and makes them more expensive.  That these are also the folks less able to pay is why ACA funding is so high.  Dump the employer provided plans and make the health insurance market operate more like the auto insurance market, then provide for a residual market that is subsidized for people with pre-existing conditions and other high risk health conditions, and I think it becomes much more workable for people.  It would be great if companies also put that $10k back into people's pockets so they can pay for those plans, but I doubt that would happen.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 18, 2019, 10:29:02 AM

Quote from: dogboyslim on November 18, 2019, 10:22:42 AM

At the risk of going off topic, ,.......ople's pockets so they can pay for those plans, but I doubt that would happen.

As another brief aside, would national health insurance help save on auto insurance?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: dogboyslim on November 18, 2019, 10:48:48 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 18, 2019, 10:29:02 AM

As another brief aside, would national health insurance help save on auto insurance?

It could - if medical injury were paid primarily by national health insurance and you stopped the health insurance companies from recovering against auto insurance.  The standard of care could drop for an injured person, as BI funded cases typically pay higher rates than other health insurance and provide fewer restrictions on care.  Healthcare facilities are more attuned to these cases.  I do not know if outcomes are any better based upon funding, but it would be interesting to see if similar injuries were presented to compare outcomes between Auto Insurance funded care and Healthcare funded care.  Healthcare companies already go after the auto insurers in accidents if they can.  Its why anytime you go to the ER they ask you if this injury was as a result of an accident that may be covered by other insurance.

I suppose if we want to talk much deeper we should probably take it to a different thread.  Many possibilities exist to make things better.  Sadly, many of the cures are worse than the current situation, and unfortunately, many people both familiar with insurance and those not, cannot readily predict which ones are going to be better than others.  Put on top of that partisan politics, and the whole thing is just a heaping pile.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 11:19:29 AM

For those who have won this race, i.e., reached $3M, and retired or plan to retire soon, what are your activities (or planned activities) in retirement?

I can think of two or three overseas trips per year, play cards with friends once every week, have fun going out to eat (or party) or visit casinos once every week. What do you do to keep your retirement life interesting?

(I am semi-retired and have a teaching job. I could do the above mentioned activities with my current job. I am not looking for volunteering opportunities, as many consider teaching as a good volunteering activity. But I prefer not to work at all, if my retirement life could be interesting and not boring.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 18, 2019, 01:22:38 PM

I would argue that winning the race is not so much about a number of course. There are some whos spending habits mean they will need $5M+ and some at less than 1$1M.

As for me at somewhere between those two posts I have a current WR of about 1.5%.. not by design, it just happened thanks to Mr Market.

We take a couple of trips abroad each year and I spend a lot of time in my shop doing stuff on my lathe and welding etc. We have a small farmette so thaer is always something that needs fixing/re-engineering/modifying..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 18, 2019, 05:09:31 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 11:19:29 AM

For those who have won this race, i.e., reached $3M, and retired or plan to retire soon, what are your activities (or planned activities) in retirement?

• Complete my N-scale model train layout. I am writing the control software myself.
• Start a model railroad club in my town
• Get a 3D printer and come up to speed with CAD. I'm really rusty as I haven't done any serious design in a while.
• Resume active membership in the cognitive science society.
• Learn to fly FPV drones and also develop drone control software

Nothing very expensive :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 18, 2019, 06:35:38 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 11:19:29 AM

For those who have won this race, i.e., reached $3M, and retired or plan to retire soon, what are your activities (or planned activities) in retirement?

I can think of two or three overseas trips per year, play cards with friends once every week, have fun going out to eat (or party) or visit casinos once every week. What do you do to keep your retirement life interesting?

(I am semi-retired and have a teaching job. I could do the above mentioned activities with my current job. I am not looking for volunteering opportunities, as many consider teaching as a good volunteering activity. But I prefer not to work at all, if my retirement life could be interesting and not boring.)

Due to having a MIL with ALZ who lives with us, our FIRE life looks nothing like we planned. It's one of the reasons DH keeps working. I fill my free time with volunteer activities. Some are small, some are big. All are rewarding to varying degrees, and I adore feeling like a valued member of my community. In my small way, I make things better for myself and the world around me. It is nothing like teaching. My volunteer activities reflect my personal interests. Not saying teachers don't make the world a better place*, buy it is not the same.

* Since the topic is teaching, apologies for the double negative :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 19, 2019, 08:10:55 AM

For some reason, @flyingaway 's question suddenly reminded me of the cheesy 80s show, Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous :-)

https://youtu.be/rjM2TOplSco (https://youtu.be/rjM2TOplSco)

For a while, group of us impoverished grad students used to watch this show every week while drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon. I used to love Robin Leach's nasal voice. I have hunch more than one of you here has watched this show :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 19, 2019, 10:48:24 AM

As an immigrant in the late 90's I had never seen this show.. It seems pretty tacky from the Youtube clip. Most millionaires I know look like me... Stealth wealth!..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: trashtalk on November 19, 2019, 01:41:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 19, 2019, 10:48:24 AM

As an immigrant in the late 90's I had never seen this show.. It seems pretty tacky from the Youtube clip. Most millionaires I know look like me... Stealth wealth!..:)

Fun facts about the guy featured in this episode:

* Adnan Khashoggi was an uncle of Jamal Khashoggi who was tortured and killed by the Saudis last year
* Donald Trump once bought Adnan Khashoggi's old yacht but only kept it for about a year on account of yachts being too expensive for fake billionaires to maintain successfully

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on November 19, 2019, 09:27:07 PM

Quote from: AdrianC on November 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM

Any computer geek working on salary is doing it wrong. Go contracting. Work from home. Bill by the hour.

Being on retainer is better

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on November 19, 2019, 09:30:56 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 11:19:29 AM

For those who have won this race, i.e., reached $3M, and retired or plan to retire soon, what are your activities (or planned activities) in retirement?

I can think of two or three overseas trips per year, play cards with friends once every week, have fun going out to eat (or party) or visit casinos once every week. What do you do to keep your retirement life interesting?

Have over $5m

Tried all that

Still in our 40s

Don’t enjoy gambling

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f26/hello-from-canada-99808.html

Basically do whatever

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 20, 2019, 03:42:40 AM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on November 19, 2019, 09:30:56 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 11:19:29 AM

For those who have won this race, i.e., reached $3M, and retired or plan to retire soon, what are your activities (or planned activities) in retirement?

I can think of two or three overseas trips per year, play cards with friends once every week, have fun going out to eat (or party) or visit casinos once every week. What do you do to keep your retirement life interesting?

Have over $5m

Tried all that

Still in our 40s

Don’t enjoy gambling

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f26/hello-from-canada-99808.html

Basically do whatever

Continue to work a part time gig 20-25 hours a week to protect stash as much as I can until I physically cant anymore.
Spend as much time on the lake as possible
Spend as much time watching my kids grow up and be around them.
Workout and get to the gym as much as possible
Self Improvement on my weakness
Continue to educate my self and learn new things
some travel, mostly in the winter months.
Spend time with friends

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 20, 2019, 07:24:18 AM

If the stock market stays at average returns for the next 3 years we should arrive at the $3M mark, even after giving a house away.      Not bad for a couple of folks who were living in poverty the first 6 years we were together!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 20, 2019, 08:44:17 AM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on November 19, 2019, 09:30:56 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 11:19:29 AM

For those who have won this race, i.e., reached $3M, and retired or plan to retire soon, what are your activities (or planned activities) in retirement?

I can think of two or three overseas trips per year, play cards with friends once every week, have fun going out to eat (or party) or visit casinos once every week. What do you do to keep your retirement life interesting?

Have over $5m

Tried all that

Still in our 40s

Don’t enjoy gambling

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f26/hello-from-canada-99808.html

Basically do whatever

We don't have that much money and are older. However, I did some online calculations. If we worked until 70, then the combined social security would cover our living expenses, which would make all savings and investments less meaningful.

Furthermore, if we could live to 101 years old, we might have $82M in our investment account. Maybe I could use that money to transform 101 years old me into a 20 years old handsome man at that time.

(I am only semi-retired. Like you, I am afraid of a boring retirement life, so I am actively looking for ways to spend money and to retire to).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on November 20, 2019, 11:18:31 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 11:19:29 AM

For those who have won this race, i.e., reached $3M, and retired or plan to retire soon, what are your activities (or planned activities) in retirement?

I can think of two or three overseas trips per year, play cards with friends once every week, have fun going out to eat (or party) or visit casinos once every week. What do you do to keep your retirement life interesting?

My next attainable target number is $2.75M.  I'm already at over 50 times spending, so am certifiably financially independent.  Not yet retired, still working.

I don't like to travel.  Why?  I traveled for a job for too long.  I absolutely HATE getting on an airplane now.  I'd rather drive from Massachusetts to Florida than fly.  (I'm actually driving my mom's car to Florida in a week...but flying back with point, free, first class).  Anyways, have less than zero interest in gambling.  I'm too logical.  I'm an engineer.  I can figure out that casinos need to keep all those lights on, need to pay all those employees.  Nobody wins.

My plans are fairly simple.  I'll do more offroading with my Wrangler (the most favoritest vehicle of the MMM crowd, right?  I get nearly 13 mpg....weeee).  Probably start doing a bit of mountain biking again.  Perhaps add an electric assist mt bike since I'm no longer 17.  I forest manage my property, so can certainly do more work outside in the woods.  What else?  I'll likely buy a toy car and start going to car shows again.  My last car was a Lotus Elise that I sold to pay a semester of tuition for one of my sons.  Note again that I'm already over 50 times spending in liquid assets (plus paid off house and 5 paid off cars) so I will have the cash available.  Something along the lines of a Lotus Evora, 911, maybe something more practical like a BRZ or Miata.

I have been "practicing" being retired with days off to burn vacation days for no reason.  I've done spectacular things like hooked up my trailer full of scrap steel to cash in and dropped off a gift of a check for college from my mom at the bursar's office at my son's college (it's only 15 miles from my house....and 2 miles from the scrap yard).  I have no big driving, focused things that I want to do.  I actually do plan to take jobs I'd like to try.  If I get to a point I don't like one, it'll be very easy to just quit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: cloudsail on November 20, 2019, 01:59:04 PM

Hi everyone! Our LNW passed $2.15M yesterday, so I am joining you all in this thread. Here's to the next million!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 20, 2019, 02:05:03 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on November 20, 2019, 01:59:04 PM

Hi everyone! Our LNW passed $2.15M yesterday, so I am joining you all in this thread. Here's to the next million!

Welcome!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 21, 2019, 02:18:28 AM

Quote from: cloudsail on November 20, 2019, 01:59:04 PM

Hi everyone! Our LNW passed $2.15M yesterday, so I am joining you all in this thread. Here's to the next million!

Great to have you here. You seem to have reached this point way sooner than I did!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 21, 2019, 04:36:21 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 21, 2019, 02:18:28 AM

Quote from: cloudsail on November 20, 2019, 01:59:04 PM

Hi everyone! Our LNW passed $2.15M yesterday, so I am joining you all in this thread. Here's to the next million!

Great to have you here. You seem to have reached this point way sooner than I did!

Welcome! more the merrier...!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 21, 2019, 09:57:21 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 11:19:29 AM

For those who have won this race, i.e., reached $3M, and retired or plan to retire soon, what are your activities (or planned activities) in retirement?

I still enjoy overseas travel and look forward to going back to the places we lived overseas.  I speak a few languages, so I'd hope to improve on that.  Will also try out slow travel, both domestic to National Parks and international.  Japan is high on the list.  Also want to do active travel - hiking, biking, running, sailing, scuba, skiing, exploration (Antarctica, Galapagos, Israel and difficult to reach destinations (Svalbard))...  But we have to get the kids off to college first.  I'm not planning to leave a pile of money behind, so the work will be to slowly spend down the principal as well as the gains in to our 70's, then we'll think about slowing down.  I'm probably trending more toward a traditional retiree than most here - I look forward to using the combination of time and money to have a higher quality of life early on in retirement, then trending more toward family time / being grandparents later in life.  But who knows what the future actually has in store for me - maybe there is a tech breakthrough or financial collapse that changes everything.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: RWD on November 21, 2019, 10:29:22 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on November 20, 2019, 11:18:31 AM

I'll likely buy a toy car and start going to car shows again.  My last car was a Lotus Elise that I sold to pay a semester of tuition for one of my sons.  Note again that I'm already over 50 times spending in liquid assets (plus paid off house and 5 paid off cars) so I will have the cash available.  Something along the lines of a Lotus Evora, 911, maybe something more practical like a BRZ or Miata.

You have 5 cars? Wow. Would your toy car replace one of them?

I have a BRZ and I can confirm it is surprisingly practical (until you try to fit a third person in it). When I bought it in 2013 I took it to a Cars & Coffee where a decent number of people were interested in it. Today though I doubt anyone would give an unmodified BRZ a second glance at a car show.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on November 21, 2019, 01:35:09 PM

4 drivers in the house.  One a community college student, one a final year 4 year college student, one "extra" vehicle is a 2009 Ford Fusion that my mom gave to me when she bought a new car.  Son #2 side swiped a truck (only been driving a couple months) which totaled the car, which I bought back ($4800 check to me), bought a mirror for $25 out of a junkyard and pretended to do paintless dent removal to the fender.

My mom is currently in Florida, so I have her new car.....so 6 on the property. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on November 22, 2019, 08:44:53 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 21, 2019, 09:57:21 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 18, 2019, 11:19:29 AM

For those who have won this race, i.e., reached $3M, and retired or plan to retire soon, what are your activities (or planned activities) in retirement?

I still enjoy overseas travel and look forward to going back to the places we lived overseas.  I speak a few languages, so I'd hope to improve on that.  Will also try out slow travel, both domestic to National Parks and international.  Japan is high on the list.  Also want to do active travel - hiking, biking, running, sailing, scuba, skiing, exploration (Antarctica, Galapagos, Israel and difficult to reach destinations (Svalbard))...  But we have to get the kids off to college first.  I'm not planning to leave a pile of money behind, so the work will be to slowly spend down the principal as well as the gains in to our 70's, then we'll think about slowing down.  I'm probably trending more toward a traditional retiree than most here - I look forward to using the combination of time and money to have a higher quality of life early on in retirement, then trending more toward family time / being grandparents later in life.  But who knows what the future actually has in store for me - maybe there is a tech breakthrough or financial collapse that changes everything.

Your travel plans sound like mine--I'm dying to go to Svalbard, the Faroe Islands, Greenland, Kamchatka, etc.  I'm looking forward to being able to travel slowly to make the most of these places. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on November 22, 2019, 09:45:42 AM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on November 22, 2019, 08:44:53 AM

Your travel plans sound like mine--I'm dying to go to Svalbard, the Faroe Islands, Greenland, Kamchatka, etc.  I'm looking forward to being able to travel slowly to make the most of these places.

Out of curiosity, what is the appeal of those places? What are you looking forward to seeing/doing/experiencing there? Thanks

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: deborah on November 22, 2019, 10:11:22 AM

Greenland is magic, particularly if you go there as the season is changing from autumn to winter. As someone from Australia, where you can often be the only person in a national park, remote places where you are practically alone have a lot of appeal. Our visit to northern Canada this year was epic. Nahanni, Tombstone Park, the Dempster Highway, tuktoyaktuk, iqaluit... amazing scenery, unbelievable autumn colours, wide open spaces. Just beautiful!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 22, 2019, 10:23:57 AM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on November 22, 2019, 09:45:42 AM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on November 22, 2019, 08:44:53 AM

Your travel plans sound like mine--I'm dying to go to Svalbard, the Faroe Islands, Greenland, Kamchatka, etc.  I'm looking forward to being able to travel slowly to make the most of these places.

Out of curiosity, what is the appeal of those places? What are you looking forward to seeing/doing/experiencing there? Thanks

I was just remembering this morning our trip to Thailand.  My wife had booked an elephant ride in the jungle and boat tour.  On the way home, my son had to use the restroom desperately and the guide stopped at a local home just off the road.  The people were really nice and welcoming, even though we didn't speak the language and we were probably the last thing they expected.  They would not take any gesture of gratitude and my kids both talked a lot about that.  Although the whole day was amazing, that little stop off and interacting with locals was a highlight.

That is the magic of slow travel, you maybe have a loose plan of things to do, but once you are there all sorts of things can happen.  It was the same when we lived overseas, travel without a rigid plan is much more meaningful than 'vacationing'.  It also makes being at home doing routine stuff a lot more fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on November 22, 2019, 11:17:19 AM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on November 22, 2019, 09:45:42 AM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on November 22, 2019, 08:44:53 AM

Your travel plans sound like mine--I'm dying to go to Svalbard, the Faroe Islands, Greenland, Kamchatka, etc.  I'm looking forward to being able to travel slowly to make the most of these places.

Out of curiosity, what is the appeal of those places? What are you looking forward to seeing/doing/experiencing there? Thanks

Lately I've been drawn to places of wild, natural beauty where I can be alone.  I've traveled extensively in Europe (I lived there for a while) and some in Asia, mainly places where I was surrounded by people and the attractions were arts and culture.  Maybe it's partly a reaction to an overload of those experiences that I now try to get away from people. 
But specifically for the places I mentioned: Svalbard captured my interest from The Golden Compass books.  A friend of mine visited the Faroe Islands and I fell in love with the stark landscape in her photos.  In the summer it's green, with steep, high cliffs and waterfalls, and there's a lake perched 40m over the sea that I'm dying to see in person.  Greenland--wild and desolate, plus Smilla's Sense of Snow piqued my interest in the people.  And Kamchatka--Russia has always fascinated me, and Kamchatka is the most remote (and I suspect) untouched part of it.  I studied Russian history in college, but we only covered Eurasian Russian history--from St. Petersburg to the steppes.  I've always been curious about the far eastern part.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on November 22, 2019, 11:21:43 AM

Quote from: deborah on November 22, 2019, 10:11:22 AM

Greenland is magic, particularly if you go there as the season is changing from autumn to winter. As someone from Australia, where you can often be the only person in a national park, remote places where you are practically alone have a lot of appeal. Our visit to northern Canada this year was epic. Nahanni, Tombstone Park, the Dempster Highway, tuktoyaktuk, iqaluit... amazing scenery, unbelievable autumn colours, wide open spaces. Just beautiful!

I would LOVE to hear more about your experiences in Greenland--how long did you stay?  Did you travel around?  What was it about the season changing that was so beautiful? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on November 22, 2019, 02:20:52 PM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on November 22, 2019, 11:17:19 AM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on November 22, 2019, 09:45:42 AM

Quote from: MiserlyMiser on November 22, 2019, 08:44:53 AM

Your travel plans sound like mine--I'm dying to go to Svalbard, the Faroe Islands, Greenland, Kamchatka, etc.  I'm looking forward to being able to travel slowly to make the most of these places.

Out of curiosity, what is the appeal of those places? What are you looking forward to seeing/doing/experiencing there? Thanks

Lately I've been drawn to places of wild, natural beauty where I can be alone.  I've traveled extensively in Europe (I lived there for a while) and some in Asia, mainly places where I was surrounded by people and the attractions were arts and culture.  Maybe it's partly a reaction to an overload of those experiences that I now try to get away from people. 
But specifically for the places I mentioned: Svalbard captured my interest from The Golden Compass books.  A friend of mine visited the Faroe Islands and I fell in love with the stark landscape in her photos.  In the summer it's green, with steep, high cliffs and waterfalls, and there's a lake perched 40m over the sea that I'm dying to see in person.  Greenland--wild and desolate, plus Smilla's Sense of Snow piqued my interest in the people.  And Kamchatka--Russia has always fascinated me, and Kamchatka is the most remote (and I suspect) untouched part of it.  I studied Russian history in college, but we only covered Eurasian Russian history--from St. Petersburg to the steppes.  I've always been curious about the far eastern part.

I've been to Zheleznogorsk (formerly Krasnoyarsk-26, a "secret city" in the middle of Siberia) and stayed in a place on the edge of town.  Out my window I could see birch trees and snow.  I'm a warm-weather person, so I didn't do any hiking (plus it is a restricted town).  In mid-March the ice on the local lake was still a meter thick.  The Sunday before I arrived they had a car race on the ice.  Nice place, but pretty cold.  TL;DR- my boss sent me to Siberia.
On topic for MMM forum, I saw no 4x4 pickups at all, just mostly normal cars.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: cloudsail on November 22, 2019, 03:25:16 PM

For myself, I'd love to spend some time in southeast Asia, but DH is paranoid about tropical diseases. Oh well, maybe Taiwan or Hainan is still a possibility.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 22, 2019, 09:32:09 PM

Are you much more relaxed at $3M than you were at $2M?

Do you consider yourself (and your family if applicable) financially independent at $3M?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 22, 2019, 10:39:57 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 22, 2019, 09:32:09 PM

Are you much more relaxed at $3M than you were at $2M?

Do you consider yourself (and your family if applicable) financially independent at $3M?

Nothing seemed any different once we passed $2M, other than maybe a burden to do more (especially for others).  It took a long time to get to $1M (I graduated and started investing in 1996) and I thought that was a lot of moolah.  I was a bit scared to ER at $1M but my DW quit her job and things were significantly better day-to-day.  The run from $1M to $2M took place roughly from 2009 to 2014, so much quicker and while things were good in Houston (until 2015).  $3M happened even sooner, despite the downturn in the local economy...  thank you compounding and US markets.

I considered our family 'lean-FI' at $1M investments and fat-FI at $2M.

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on November 23, 2019, 01:22:52 AM

.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 23, 2019, 03:10:55 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 22, 2019, 09:32:09 PM

Are you much more relaxed at $3M than you were at $2M?

Do you consider yourself (and your family if applicable) financially independent at $3M?

This is a trick question :-) I have been an obsessive expenditure tracker since 1994 when I bought my first copy of Quicken. But, it somehow never occurred to me to calculate my household's net worth until 2016 - at which point we were about $3M!  That said, I am absolutely more relaxed now than I was in 2016.

More than net worth, the feeling of employability (ie being able to find a job quickly) has been a bigger source of comfort for me in recent years. Things did look a bit dicey about 15 years ago. But round about 2010, the corporate world, suddenly woke up to the possibilities of AI, my field of work. Since then, I have not really been worried about being unemployed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 23, 2019, 03:50:43 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 22, 2019, 09:32:09 PM

Are you much more relaxed at $3M than you were at $2M?

Do you consider yourself (and your family if applicable) financially independent at $3M?

I would say more from a psychological point of view knowing that if you had a 50% drop 1.5 million is easier for me to live on than if it dropped and I ended up with 1 million BUT each year that becomes less the case because i know in either case I would be fine. Time for me has at least been my friend in feeling comfortable  in being able to do things to earn extra cash if need be or maneuver some not if but when shit hits the fan.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 23, 2019, 06:21:36 AM

I was being a whiney little bitch a week ago.  As treatment, I took off with my bicycle.  I went bikepacking for 200 Mississippi miles.  Soul and body lighter now.  Love you bitches.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 23, 2019, 08:28:19 AM

Would the well to do ladies and gentlemen to whom I may be addressing agree with the following basic statement?

Getting enough money to be FI takes a lot of stress away.  It's like it helps you see what has been hidden behind a curtain.  It becomes apparent that rich or poor without your health you essentially have very little.  At least that is how I am beginning to see it as I near the crest of the hill of Financial Independence.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 23, 2019, 09:01:31 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 23, 2019, 08:28:19 AM

Would the well to do ladies and gentlemen to whom I may be addressing agree with the following basic statement?

Getting enough money to be FI takes a lot of stress away.  It's like it helps you see what has been hidden behind a curtain.  It becomes apparent that rich or poor without your health you essentially have very little.  At least that is how I am beginning to see it as I near the crest of the hill of Financial Independence.

If you don't have your health, you can only see other people enjoy their wealth. I agree that if you want to enjoy something and money is not a problem (with $2M or $3M), do it now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 23, 2019, 10:12:22 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 23, 2019, 09:01:31 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 23, 2019, 08:28:19 AM

Would the well to do ladies and gentlemen to whom I may be addressing agree with the following basic statement?

Getting enough money to be FI takes a lot of stress away.  It's like it helps you see what has been hidden behind a curtain.  It becomes apparent that rich or poor without your health you essentially have very little.  At least that is how I am beginning to see it as I near the crest of the hill of Financial Independence.

If you don't have your health, you can only see other people enjoy their wealth. I agree that if you want to enjoy something and money is not a problem (with $2M or $3M), do it now.

Agreed, On Tuesday this week I lost a good friend to Cancer, same age as me. Their networth I assume is several times what we have!...:(

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 23, 2019, 12:26:56 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 23, 2019, 03:50:43 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 22, 2019, 09:32:09 PM

Are you much more relaxed at $3M than you were at $2M?

Do you consider yourself (and your family if applicable) financially independent at $3M?

I would say more from a psychological point of view knowing that if you had a 50% drop 1.5 million is easier for me to live on than if it dropped and I ended up with 1 million BUT each year that becomes less the case because i know in either case I would be fine. Time for me has at least been my friend in feeling comfortable  in being able to do things to earn extra cash if need be or maneuver some not if but when shit hits the fan.

This hit the nail on the head for me. The potential 50% drop is much more survivable from these levels of networth. As for going back to work... Naah!...:)

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on November 23, 2019, 12:59:03 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 23, 2019, 08:28:19 AM

Would the well to do ladies and gentlemen to whom I may be addressing agree with the following basic statement?

Getting enough money to be FI takes a lot of stress away.  It's like it helps you see what has been hidden behind a curtain.  It becomes apparent that rich or poor without your health you essentially have very little. At least that is how I am beginning to see it as I near the crest of the hill of Financial Independence.

Not exactly so I guess I technically  disagree. Some of us already knew the importance of Time and Health long before FI. It didn’t require being FI to be aware of this

Also some of us weren’t stressed. And for those who weren’t stressed RE became whatever we wanted it to be

Those who are stressed called it Work and they were generally glad to make RE = no Work

Those who weren’t stressed called it Interesting Adventure and they didn’t see a difference between RE and not RE because both states were identical

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on November 23, 2019, 01:10:34 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 22, 2019, 09:32:09 PM

Are you much more relaxed at $3M than you were at $2M?

No. I never felt relaxed because of my NW

I noticed being more relaxed during the Great Recession as soon as I purchased enough rental property to completely cover all our expenses 

Quote from: flyingaway on November 22, 2019, 09:32:09 PM

Do you consider yourself (and your family if applicable) financially independent at $3M?

I never used NW to determine FI. I used passive income > earned income > expenses

My NW was always increasing in the background

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 23, 2019, 01:20:12 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 23, 2019, 10:12:22 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 23, 2019, 09:01:31 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 23, 2019, 08:28:19 AM

Would the well to do ladies and gentlemen to whom I may be addressing agree with the following basic statement?

Getting enough money to be FI takes a lot of stress away.  It's like it helps you see what has been hidden behind a curtain.  It becomes apparent that rich or poor without your health you essentially have very little.  At least that is how I am beginning to see it as I near the crest of the hill of Financial Independence.

If you don't have your health, you can only see other people enjoy their wealth. I agree that if you want to enjoy something and money is not a problem (with $2M or $3M), do it now.

Agreed, On Tuesday this week I lost a good friend to Cancer, same age as me. Their networth I assume is several times what we have!...:(

Oh, so sorry to hear of the loss of your friend, @Exflyboy! The older you get (ahem) the worse it is to lose a good friend. They're hard to come by.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 23, 2019, 02:31:08 PM

@Dicey Thanks.. Yeah and the older you get the faster they die.. Such is the way with cancer.

I find myself asking "whats the difference between them and me/DW?".. Answer.. Nothing!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 23, 2019, 03:15:16 PM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on November 23, 2019, 01:10:34 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 22, 2019, 09:32:09 PM

Are you much more relaxed at $3M than you were at $2M?

No. I never felt relaxed because of my NW

I noticed being more relaxed during the Great Recession as soon as I purchased enough rental property to completely cover all our expenses 

Quote from: flyingaway on November 22, 2019, 09:32:09 PM

Do you consider yourself (and your family if applicable) financially independent at $3M?

I never used NW to determine FI. I used passive income > earned income > expenses

My NW was always increasing in the background

Way to go!

We have done the same.   Starting in January, our SWR can drop to 0% during a normal year because other passive income sources cover our normal expenses.   

Net worth was nice to track but it's a flawed measurement for FIRE.

That's why I created these polls, to bring more attention to tracking passive income vs planned (or current) expenses instead of net worth:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-to-100-fi!/
 (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-to-100-fi!/)
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-to-100-fi-(only-if-below-median-household-income!!!)/
 (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-to-100-fi-(only-if-below-median-household-income!!!)/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 23, 2019, 06:48:43 PM

Quote from: lhamo on November 23, 2019, 04:01:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 23, 2019, 06:21:36 AM

I was being a whiney little bitch a week ago.  As treatment, I took off with my bicycle.  I went bikepacking for 200 Mississippi miles.  Soul and body lighter now.  Love you bitches.

Ready to pull the plug yet?

My sister retired a couple of weeks ago.  She noticed that now that she is no longer working, there really is nothing in her life worth complaining about.  She is very, very happy that she is no longer working.  She has complete control over her schedule, including the ability to book travel when and where she wants (often coinciding with great prices).

FIREd life is good....

Naugh.   The thread is Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!   More money to be made.  More bicycles to buy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 24, 2019, 03:44:43 AM

I just discovered an old spreadsheet containing net worth from 2003 to 2010 that I had completely forgotten about! These are the sum of pre and post tax investements, (does not include home value or pensions).

December 2005	$604,000
Nov 2006	$760,000
May 2009	$873,000
December 2010	$1,150,000
November 2019 (for comparison)	$4,600,000

The last ten years have been incredible and feels unreal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 24, 2019, 03:52:26 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 24, 2019, 03:44:43 AM

I just discovered an old spreadsheet containing net worth from 2003 to 2010 that I had completely forgotten about! These are the sum of pre and post tax investements, (does not include home value or pensions).

December 2005	$604,000
Nov 2006	$760,000
May 2009	$873,000
December 2010	$1,150,000
November 2019 (for comparison)	$4,600,000

The last ten years have been incredible and feels unreal.

Well done!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 24, 2019, 08:04:31 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 24, 2019, 03:52:26 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 24, 2019, 03:44:43 AM

I just discovered an old spreadsheet containing net worth from 2003 to 2010 that I had completely forgotten about! These are the sum of pre and post tax investements, (does not include home value or pensions).

December 2005	$604,000
Nov 2006	$760,000
May 2009	$873,000
December 2010	$1,150,000
November 2019 (for comparison)	$4,600,000

The last ten years have been incredible and feels unreal.

Well done!

Indeed!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 10:22:13 AM

Wow @2sk22 Thats well beyond.. Awesome!

Now I'm wondering who all the super wealthy are around here and how much they have..

Do we have any $5M+ invested folks??

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: oldladystache on November 24, 2019, 10:25:24 AM

I'm afraid I can't join your race. I'm trying hard to avoid getting to $3M. I don't need it and when I die whatever I have will be inherited by someone who will probably waste it.

A few years ago I was there to watch when my dad, then 100 years old, gave someone enough to make them cry. I hadn't thought about that until recently when I gave someone a generous gift and they cried.

So now I'm thinking about where else can I make someone cry.

Once you have more than enough it just keeps growing. A good problem to have.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 10:43:21 AM

Quote from: oldladystache on November 24, 2019, 10:25:24 AM

I'm afraid I can't join your race. I'm trying hard to avoid getting to $3M. I don't need it and when I die whatever I have will be inherited by someone who will probably waste it.

A few years ago I was there to watch when my dad, then 100 years old, gave someone enough to make them cry. I hadn't thought about that until recently when I gave someone a generous gift and they cried.

So now I'm thinking about where else can I make someone cry.

Once you have more than enough it just keeps growing. A good problem to have.

I guess there is an argument to allow ones NW to grow above and beyond what we need, I mean say 10 years from now you feel its time to go into some form of assisted care. Much better to be able to afford top notch care rather than go into the places where we often hear horror stories.

Maybe hire a personal assistant for $100k/year perhaps.

I do think its important to leave your wealth to something meaningful in your will.. I've got far too many vultures in DW's family that will be swooping in as I lay on my death bed, no way do I want any of my NW going to them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 24, 2019, 12:22:35 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 10:22:13 AM

Wow @2sk22 Thats well beyond.. Awesome!

Now I'm wondering who all the super wealthy are around here and how much they have..

Do we have any $5M+ invested folks??

I hope not to reach $5M as I'm definitely quitting in the coming year :-) As I keep saying, I just don't feel "super wealthy" at all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 12:32:42 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 24, 2019, 12:22:35 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 10:22:13 AM

Wow @2sk22 Thats well beyond.. Awesome!

Now I'm wondering who all the super wealthy are around here and how much they have..

Do we have any $5M+ invested folks??

I hope not to reach $5M as I'm definitely quitting in the coming year :-) As I keep saying, I just don't feel "super wealthy" at all.

You are kidding right? I quit work almost 6 years ago with about $1.25M invested. Today I have $2.25M.

You cannot avoid making money unless you stuff it all in cash under the mattress..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 24, 2019, 12:56:31 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 12:32:42 PM

- SNIP -

You cannot avoid making money unless you stuff it all in cash under the mattress..:)

It is hard too sleep on that lumpy mattress.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 01:25:38 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 24, 2019, 12:56:31 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 12:32:42 PM

- SNIP -

You cannot avoid making money unless you stuff it all in cash under the mattress..:)

It is hard too sleep on that lumpy mattress.

Right?.. You'd hit your head on the ceiling..:)

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on November 24, 2019, 02:20:31 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 10:22:13 AM

Wow @2sk22 Thats well beyond.. Awesome!

Now I'm wondering who all the super wealthy are around here and how much they have..

Do we have any $5M+ invested folks??

Yes. There are a number of us here

And if anyone cares, the Bogleheads forum has a number of $5m+ investors as well

https://public.tableau.com/profile/dvoery#!/vizhome/BogleheadSurvey/Dashboard1

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 24, 2019, 02:45:57 PM

I have shifted my AA to about 65/35 and am no longer interested in racing to anything beyond $3M. Maybe the portfolio will increase anyway. But I just found new ways to spend excessive money, added some line items on my budget table.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on November 24, 2019, 03:09:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 01:25:38 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 24, 2019, 12:56:31 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 12:32:42 PM

- SNIP -

You cannot avoid making money unless you stuff it all in cash under the mattress..:)

It is hard too sleep on that lumpy mattress.

Right?.. You'd hit your head on the ceiling..:)

According to https://1000000-euro.de/how-much-does-a-million-dollars-weigh/index.php#weigh-dollar        the volume of 1M is about 1 cubic meter ~ 1 cubic yard.  If your mattress is 1 m2 then the pile is 1m high.  Your ceiling is safe.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 24, 2019, 03:12:19 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 01:25:38 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 24, 2019, 12:56:31 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 12:32:42 PM

- SNIP -

You cannot avoid making money unless you stuff it all in cash under the mattress..:)

It is hard too sleep on that lumpy mattress.

Right?.. You'd hit your head on the ceiling..:)

A stack of one million, $1 bills is 358 feet tall and over a ton.  We could judge our goals in feet.  1000 feet or bust!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 03:23:29 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on November 24, 2019, 03:09:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 01:25:38 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 24, 2019, 12:56:31 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 12:32:42 PM

- SNIP -

You cannot avoid making money unless you stuff it all in cash under the mattress..:)

It is hard too sleep on that lumpy mattress.

Right?.. You'd hit your head on the ceiling..:)

According to https://1000000-euro.de/how-much-does-a-million-dollars-weigh/index.php#weigh-dollar        the volume of 1M is about 1 cubic meter ~ 1 cubic yard.  If your mattress is 1 m2 then the pile is 1m high.  Your ceiling is safe.

But our intrepid "super investor" has $5M... Maybe they have very tall ceilings.. Quite possible.. But then a king bed is 7ft*7ft which is about 4.6sqm.. So prolly still safe..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 24, 2019, 03:30:46 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 03:23:29 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on November 24, 2019, 03:09:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 01:25:38 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 24, 2019, 12:56:31 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 12:32:42 PM

- SNIP -

You cannot avoid making money unless you stuff it all in cash under the mattress..:)

It is hard too sleep on that lumpy mattress.

Right?.. You'd hit your head on the ceiling..:)

According to https://1000000-euro.de/how-much-does-a-million-dollars-weigh/index.php#weigh-dollar        the volume of 1M is about 1 cubic meter ~ 1 cubic yard.  If your mattress is 1 m2 then the pile is 1m high.  Your ceiling is safe.

But our intrepid "super investor" has $5M... Maybe they have very tall ceilings.. Quite possible.. But then a king bed is 7ft*7ft which is about 4.6sqm.. So prolly still safe..:)

May need to cash in for Woodrow Wilson $100,000 bills.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 03:33:45 PM

All kidding aside.. Investments of $5M+ is pretty damn cool.. I mean thats a yearly spend of $200k.. I mean Holy F..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 24, 2019, 05:03:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 03:33:45 PM

All kidding aside.. Investments of $5M+ is pretty damn cool.. I mean thats a yearly spend of $200k.. I mean Holy F..:)

Unless we die early or an asteroid hits, we on this thread have a good shot at seeing 5M.
But yeah, cool stash number.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 24, 2019, 05:14:18 PM

Just checked the stats on this thread.  Under 2000 posts and almost 230,000 views.   Holy crap thats a lot of lurkers.  Probably coming here hoping to find the secrets to wealth building.   I can just imagine their disappointment once they read our bullshit. 

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on November 24, 2019, 06:27:01 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 24, 2019, 05:14:18 PM

Just checked the stats on this thread.  Under 2000 posts and almost 230,000 views.   Holy crap thats a lot of lurkers.  Probably coming here hoping to find the secrets to wealth building.   I can just imagine their disappointment once they read our bullshit.

More likely narcissist posters just visiting and re-visiting their posts in this thread

I agree that it’s definitely filled w BS

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on November 24, 2019, 06:28:34 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 24, 2019, 05:03:58 PM

But yeah, cool stash number.

Meet the new boss

Same as the old boss

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 24, 2019, 09:19:45 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 24, 2019, 05:14:18 PM

Just checked the stats on this thread.  Under 2000 posts and almost 230,000 views.   Holy crap thats a lot of lurkers.  Probably coming here hoping to find the secrets to wealth building.   I can just imagine their disappointment once they read our bullshit.

We are the ultimate click-bait:  Headline "multimillionaires talk freely" *click*  Hey EFB, how is the welding going?  Is Bateaux still out biking?  SL4 bought another house to flip?  Oh yeah, and the market went up again :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 25, 2019, 04:02:06 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 24, 2019, 02:45:57 PM

I have shifted my AA to about 65/35 and am no longer interested in racing to anything beyond $3M. Maybe the portfolio will increase anyway. But I just found new ways to spend excessive money, added some line items on my budget table.

I did 60/40 for basically seem reason when I fire'd going on 5 years ago

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 25, 2019, 09:53:32 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 24, 2019, 09:19:45 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 24, 2019, 05:14:18 PM

Just checked the stats on this thread.  Under 2000 posts and almost 230,000 views.   Holy crap thats a lot of lurkers.  Probably coming here hoping to find the secrets to wealth building.   I can just imagine their disappointment once they read our bullshit.

We are the ultimate click-bait:  Headline "multimillionaires talk freely" *click*  Hey EFB, how is the welding going?  Is Bateaux still out biking?  SL4 bought another house to flip?  Oh yeah, and the market went up again :)

Wow.. I've never been clickbait before.. Thats like Internet Royalty right?..:)

And the markets are up!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 26, 2019, 08:53:50 AM

Clickbait or not, I enjoy this thread. It's not like I can go around sharing about my situation and asking others how they are handling their millions or retiring at 42.

Speaking of which. I've got a new decision to make. I hesitate to bring it up because I know it's a hot topic on the forum. We are trying to decide if we should pay off our mortgage. I used to be firmly in the "don't pay off your mortgage club" but with the new tax laws and $2.5M in investments I'm not so sure. I think the only thing that we would be missing out on if we paid it back is the impact of inflation. Points of consideration-
-We owe $183k on a $310k house with 26 years on the mortgage at 4%APR.
-Of our $2.5M in investments $160k is in cash.
- DH's Honda Accord has 215k miles (10 years old) on it and probably needs to be replaced. Or we could keep it but potentially have another $1k-$2k fix next year. Some of that cash was to purchase another two year old low mileage Accord for him. The rest of the cash is our cushion for market down turn or to draw down to cover expenses without a tax impact.
-Honda is currently offering 0% on new Accord.
-We should have enough in cash this spring, RIGHT BEFORE I RE, to pay off the mortgage if we don't spend it on a car. But it will use up all cash reserves. Everything else is invested.
So buy a car at 0% (and yes I know I can get the loan, I got a 0% 18 years ago and kept the car for 12 years)? And pay off the mortgage and then not have the $7k of mortgage interest that I can't deduct?
Or keep the mortgage and invest the cash?
What do you smart people think?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on November 26, 2019, 09:20:10 AM

Including estimated home value, our TNW crested $2M for the first time after yesterday's market action.  LNW is hovering around $1.6M, so I don't feel like a full member here -- just dipping my toe in the water.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 26, 2019, 09:21:20 AM

@BeanCounter In your situation, I would probably lean toward the payoff.  Each situation is different which is why this is such a 'controversial' topic (more just a no 'one size fits all' answer to the question).  You mention that your mortgage is at 4% (and isn't reducing your taxes) which is pretty high compared to the sub-2% return on bonds, so there's no real arbitrage and you are paying a lot to have your cash not tied up in the house.  One thing I dislike about paying off a mortgage is that the money in 'tied up' in the house, but you are at FI and considering ER, so you don't need to shoot the moon with 100% equities.  Also, cash-flow will improve if you don't have to pay the mortgage every month which smooths out a big expense in ER.  And in a pinch, you can take out a HELOC or downsize the house in the future to free up that equity. 

I would treat the car as a separate issue.  Your 4% mortgage is the pressing issue, paying for a car that you might or might not buy can be a decision based on if you want to raise the cash from an underperforming investment, pay out of cash flow, or work a little longer...

My two cents for you, now back to cheering on the market rally :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: RWD on November 26, 2019, 09:36:01 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 26, 2019, 08:53:50 AM

Or keep the mortgage and invest the cash?
What do you smart people think?

If you already had the cash invested would you be considering selling off investments to pay down the mortgage?

You've already won so whichever choice you make will turn out fine. Personally I would lean towards investing. But in any case you definitely should not use up all your cash reserves.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 26, 2019, 10:16:07 AM

We bought our big house in 2006 and made every efforts to pay off the mortgage and did it at the end of 2010.

Looking back, it might or might not be the best decision in terms of money and investing (2008 market crash). However, at that time, I did not have any interests in investing and did not know the difference between stocks and bonds. (I was absorbed completely into my work).
I have no regret and would do that again, if I had the chances.

(A few months ago, about 10 friends having a party at someone's house, one person was surprised that he knew everyone there but me. It turned out that person was a mortgage broker and everyone else in the room had mortgage with him. I was so happy, as I was the only one in the room who were financially independent and without a mortgage).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on November 26, 2019, 10:36:55 AM

Quote from: RWD on November 26, 2019, 09:36:01 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 26, 2019, 08:53:50 AM

Or keep the mortgage and invest the cash?
What do you smart people think?

If you already had the cash invested would you be considering selling off investments to pay down the mortgage?

You've already won so whichever choice you make will turn out fine. Personally I would lean towards investing. But in any case you definitely should not use up all your cash reserves.

Agreed that either choice is fine...whats huge is you could easily pay off the entire mortgage if you wanted to, its such a small liability compared to your overall investments. 

I'm nearing FIRE like you and like to have a small cash portion for multiple reasons which I'd consider the $160k to be.  My investments and home value are similar to yours ($300k vs $3M and mine is paid off, which I just view as taking off risk somewhat now FIREing).  More than 7 years from FIRE I liked being 100% equity, so cash/mortgage payoff didnt make much sense.  But on its doorstep I like a small cash portion and a small bond portion plus a paid off house (which I just see as similar to a pretty good use of much of the cash portion).  Again, I don;t think its a big deal either way.  I would want at least a year of cash in RE for multiple reasons

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 26, 2019, 10:49:16 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 26, 2019, 08:53:50 AM

Clickbait or not, I enjoy this thread. It's not like I can go around sharing about my situation and asking others how they are handling their millions or retiring at 42.

Speaking of which. I've got a new decision to make. I hesitate to bring it up because I know it's a hot topic on the forum. We are trying to decide if we should pay off our mortgage. I used to be firmly in the "don't pay off your mortgage club" but with the new tax laws and $2.5M in investments I'm not so sure. I think the only thing that we would be missing out on if we paid it back is the impact of inflation. Points of consideration-
-We owe $183k on a $310k house with 26 years on the mortgage at 4%APR.
-Of our $2.5M in investments $160k is in cash.
- DH's Honda Accord has 215k miles (10 years old) on it and probably needs to be replaced. Or we could keep it but potentially have another $1k-$2k fix next year. Some of that cash was to purchase another two year old low mileage Accord for him. The rest of the cash is our cushion for market down turn or to draw down to cover expenses without a tax impact.
-Honda is currently offering 0% on new Accord.
-We should have enough in cash this spring, RIGHT BEFORE I RE, to pay off the mortgage if we don't spend it on a car. But it will use up all cash reserves. Everything else is invested.
So buy a car at 0% (and yes I know I can get the loan, I got a 0% 18 years ago and kept the car for 12 years)? And pay off the mortgage and then not have the $7k of mortgage interest that I can't deduct?
Or keep the mortgage and invest the cash?
What do you smart people think?

I should note that, in fact, I paid off my mortgage earlier this year because we only had about $20k and a year left on our mortgage at that point. In your case, approaching RE, I think keeping a healthy cash buffer is better idea than paying off your mortgage.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 26, 2019, 11:34:58 AM

I also don't think the mortgage question matters too much. Paying it off is the least risky thing you can do. Come the apocalypse the one thing you need is the roof over your head paid for (unless the US gets invaded by a foreign power).

Funnily enough I have more of an issue with buying a new car.. Even at 0% it still doesn't make sense because of the depreciation.. But then its fairly small beans at your level of networth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 26, 2019, 02:20:23 PM

I would definitely not pay off the mortgage and keep your cash available for whatever things may come up.

A new car is fine if you're the type of person who is planning to hold onto it forever to the end.

There is depreciation for vehicles, but not so much for Japanese cars, which a year or two old, cost almost as much as when they were new.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: RWD on November 26, 2019, 02:30:41 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 26, 2019, 02:20:23 PM

There is depreciation for vehicles, but not so much for Japanese cars, which a year or two old, cost almost as much as when they were new.

15-30% depreciation in the first year is not what I would call "almost as much"...
https://usedfirst.com/cars/toyota/corolla/
https://usedfirst.com/cars/subaru/impreza/
https://usedfirst.com/cars/honda/fit/
https://usedfirst.com/cars/mazda/3/
https://usedfirst.com/cars/nissan/sentra/
https://usedfirst.com/cars/mitsubishi/mirage/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jeroly on November 26, 2019, 02:38:19 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 26, 2019, 02:20:23 PM

I would definitely not pay off the mortgage and keep your cash available for whatever things may come up.

A new car is fine if you're the type of person who is planning to hold onto it forever to the end.

There is depreciation for vehicles, but not so much for Japanese cars, which a year or two old, cost almost as much as when they were new.

With $2.5MM you can do whatever you want with that mortgage.  Another option is to pay off half!
Re: the car... Paying for two extra / most expensive years of depreciation just to get a 0% loan doesn’t seem like a good trade off for financial reasons.  If you want a new car you can certainly afford it, but don’t pretend it’s a “deal.”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 26, 2019, 02:43:13 PM

Well I see a 2017 Toyota Corolla for $13,200 near me so maybe it is possible to get a good deal on a used Japanese car.
You'll definitely want to have an auto mechanic look it over.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 26, 2019, 03:10:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 26, 2019, 08:53:50 AM

Clickbait or not, I enjoy this thread. It's not like I can go around sharing about my situation and asking others how they are handling their millions or retiring at 42.

Speaking of which. I've got a new decision to make. I hesitate to bring it up because I know it's a hot topic on the forum. We are trying to decide if we should pay off our mortgage. I used to be firmly in the "don't pay off your mortgage club" but with the new tax laws and $2.5M in investments I'm not so sure. I think the only thing that we would be missing out on if we paid it back is the impact of inflation. Points of consideration-
-We owe $183k on a $310k house with 26 years on the mortgage at 4%APR.
-Of our $2.5M in investments $160k is in cash.
- DH's Honda Accord has 215k miles (10 years old) on it and probably needs to be replaced. Or we could keep it but potentially have another $1k-$2k fix next year. Some of that cash was to purchase another two year old low mileage Accord for him. The rest of the cash is our cushion for market down turn or to draw down to cover expenses without a tax impact.
-Honda is currently offering 0% on new Accord.
-We should have enough in cash this spring, RIGHT BEFORE I RE, to pay off the mortgage if we don't spend it on a car. But it will use up all cash reserves. Everything else is invested.
So buy a car at 0% (and yes I know I can get the loan, I got a 0% 18 years ago and kept the car for 12 years)? And pay off the mortgage and then not have the $7k of mortgage interest that I can't deduct?
Or keep the mortgage and invest the cash?
What do you smart people think?

How are you going to feel when you "only" have $23k in cash? Also, typically, it's easiest to get a mortgage when you have a j-o-b. I'd hang on to it for a couple more years. Wait until FIRE gets comfortable, then consider a payoff again, but not before. Once you've paid it off, it's damn difficult to get that cheap money back.

As to the car, meh, I'm okay with buying a new one once in a while, then babying it forever. DH's 2002 truck has just under 100k miles on it and still looks great. He bought it brand new, just the way he wanted it, for about $21k. The current version of his vehicle would cost more than double that. He actually needs a truck, and he plans to keep it for at least another decade.

Quote from: jeroly on November 26, 2019, 02:38:19 PM

...Another option is to pay off half!

That's possibly the worst option! Feel free to come and chat over on the DPOYM thread if you're not sure why. We don't bite.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on November 26, 2019, 05:38:33 PM

Well, after needing to count the cash in my wallet to add to my Quicken accts to finally cross the mark, I hit $3,000,012 in Liquid Net Worth today.  Total Net Worth is about $3.95M (adds in paid off house, 529s for all the kids which are about to start being drawn down, and a DAF I set up when I cashed out my business), so my 'last' target to hit the $4M NW mark will be soon, market willing.

I never really intended to hit these numbers even just a few years ago, but the business did really well at the end.  I'm consulting to wrap it up now for my buyer, not b/c I feel I need more or that I really want to keep working (though with reduced hours its not that bad now), but I feel I owe it to them and my employees to leave them in good shape so will keep going till at least the end of this school year and then rethink it all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 26, 2019, 09:11:00 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on November 26, 2019, 05:38:33 PM

Well, after needing to count the cash in my wallet to add to my Quicken accts to finally cross the mark, I hit $3,000,012 in Liquid Net Worth today.  Total Net Worth is about $3.95M (adds in paid off house, 529s for all the kids which are about to start being drawn down, and a DAF I set up when I cashed out my business), so my 'last' target to hit the $4M NW mark will be soon, market willing.

I never really intended to hit these numbers even just a few years ago, but the business did really well at the end.  I'm consulting to wrap it up now for my buyer, not b/c I feel I need more or that I really want to keep working (though with reduced hours its not that bad now), but I feel I owe it to them and my employees to leave them in good shape so will keep going till at least the end of this school year and then rethink it all.

Welcome to the '....and beyond'!  Kinda anti-climatic.  The numbers move faster and you start looking at numbers like $10 as if they are rounding errors.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 26, 2019, 10:58:46 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 26, 2019, 09:11:00 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on November 26, 2019, 05:38:33 PM

Well, after needing to count the cash in my wallet to add to my Quicken accts to finally cross the mark, I hit $3,000,012 in Liquid Net Worth today.  Total Net Worth is about $3.95M (adds in paid off house, 529s for all the kids which are about to start being drawn down, and a DAF I set up when I cashed out my business), so my 'last' target to hit the $4M NW mark will be soon, market willing.

I never really intended to hit these numbers even just a few years ago, but the business did really well at the end.  I'm consulting to wrap it up now for my buyer, not b/c I feel I need more or that I really want to keep working (though with reduced hours its not that bad now), but I feel I owe it to them and my employees to leave them in good shape so will keep going till at least the end of this school year and then rethink it all.

Welcome to the '....and beyond'!  Kinda anti-climatic.  The numbers move faster and you start looking at numbers like $10 as if they are rounding errors.

Sweet.. Well done.

Now why do I feel "poor" all of a sudden?..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 27, 2019, 04:09:09 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 26, 2019, 02:43:13 PM

Well I see a 2017 Toyota Corolla for $13,200 near me so maybe it is possible to get a good deal on a used Japanese car.
You'll definitely want to have an auto mechanic look it over.

I bought a Corolla a year and a half ago 2016 with 7k miles on it for 12k plus change actually from a reputable dealer so there out there. Also bought a Kia Soul for my DS in College around the same time down in NC with around the same mileage, same year and same price.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 27, 2019, 04:21:37 AM

Quote from: Dicey on November 26, 2019, 03:10:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 26, 2019, 08:53:50 AM

Clickbait or not, I enjoy this thread. It's not like I can go around sharing about my situation and asking others how they are handling their millions or retiring at 42.

Speaking of which. I've got a new decision to make. I hesitate to bring it up because I know it's a hot topic on the forum. We are trying to decide if we should pay off our mortgage. I used to be firmly in the "don't pay off your mortgage club" but with the new tax laws and $2.5M in investments I'm not so sure. I think the only thing that we would be missing out on if we paid it back is the impact of inflation. Points of consideration-
-We owe $183k on a $310k house with 26 years on the mortgage at 4%APR.
-Of our $2.5M in investments $160k is in cash.
- DH's Honda Accord has 215k miles (10 years old) on it and probably needs to be replaced. Or we could keep it but potentially have another $1k-$2k fix next year. Some of that cash was to purchase another two year old low mileage Accord for him. The rest of the cash is our cushion for market down turn or to draw down to cover expenses without a tax impact.
-Honda is currently offering 0% on new Accord.
-We should have enough in cash this spring, RIGHT BEFORE I RE, to pay off the mortgage if we don't spend it on a car. But it will use up all cash reserves. Everything else is invested.
So buy a car at 0% (and yes I know I can get the loan, I got a 0% 18 years ago and kept the car for 12 years)? And pay off the mortgage and then not have the $7k of mortgage interest that I can't deduct?
Or keep the mortgage and invest the cash?
What do you smart people think?

How are you going to feel when you "only" have $23k in cash? Also, typically, it's easiest to get a mortgage when you have a j-o-b. I'd hang on to it for a couple more years. Wait until FIRE gets comfortable, then consider a payoff again, but not before. Once you've paid it off, it's damn difficult to get that cheap money back.

As to the car, meh, I'm okay with buying a new one once in a while, then babying it forever. DH's 2002 truck has just under 100k miles on it and still looks great. He bought it brand new, just the way he wanted it, for about $21k. The current version of his vehicle would cost more than double that. He actually needs a truck, and he plans to keep it for at least another decade.

Quote from: jeroly on November 26, 2019, 02:38:19 PM

...Another option is to pay off half!

That's possibly the worst option! Feel free to come and chat over on the DPOYM thread if you're not sure why. We don't bite.

I like a paid of mortgage myself but I agree with Dicey in your case and would wait till you save up some more cash in case you have other needs. The car , its nice to have a new car but that lasts about 2 weeks and you can get the same satisfaction buying a 2 year old used one. My suggestion there is just buy one from a reputable dealer with all the warranty etc.. and save the depreciation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on November 27, 2019, 06:30:59 AM

There are separate threads for "pay off the mortgage" and "don't pay off the mortgage".  I like to point out that if you have this choice to make, you're in really great shape and so long as that money is working for you, neither answer is wrong.  Heck, you could even pay off half the mortgage and invest the other half.  That's now wrong either.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 27, 2019, 06:38:40 AM

Thanks guys!! It seems the general consensus is to sit on it for a bit longer. That's kind of how we were leaning. Holding a mortgage was a mathematically easy choice before the tax code changed and we were still in the accumulation phase. Now, the choice is a bit more gray. The only advantage to paying it off now is saving $7k in interest every year.
So we'll sit tight for awhile longer and see how things go when I'm no longer working. DH is going to continue working (his choice) but I think his salary will just barely cover our expenses. So we likely won't accumulate much extra cash, may even start drawing down some to pay for our beloved family vacations.

The car issue only came up because we would use cash that was saved for a car to pay the mortgage and 0% seemed like a better option than selling stock and incurring more taxes. We usually do buy slightly used cars. Our current Honda's are both lease exchanges (meaning someone brought their two year old leased car back and we came in and bought it for cash). The only time I've ever bought a new car was the 2001 Mazda I bought with the 0% deal. I do think that worked out for me as I was just out of college, I was able to invest what I had saved for the car and I drove the car for 14 years. Anyway, I would like DH to buy another lease exchange, and he said he would consider it. But he wants a very particular model. While I would just be willing to drive whatever was the best deal. He is not. And I don't think at our age and NW it's worth arguing about. As he pointed out when we were discussing this "We are worth $2.5M. It's not like I want a BMW, Lexus or Mercedes. I'm considering a new Honda Accord, which I will likely keep for ten years." He has a point and I let it go after that, since you know, I like being married. :)
After all. I did pay cash for an $80k home renovation last spring and he didn't say boo about it. I'm finishing the extra year of work I agreed to do to pay for it though. I don't regret it at all. I love my house now and will be very happy here for FIRE. When the kids are gone in 12-15 years hopefully we can sell it and get that money back.
It can't be all about numbers all the time. If it was I'd keep working my cushy six figure job because the math says at my age that makes sense. But I don't want to end up dead with $5M and not enough memories with my kids. (I would like to leave some money to my kids to help with their retirement, but that's a topic for another day)
Happy Thanksgiving guys. I'll be cooking a turkey for 12 in my new kitchen. My boys are excited about the pie buffet after the turkey, and football.  Life is good!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 27, 2019, 07:06:10 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on November 27, 2019, 06:30:59 AM

There are separate threads for "pay off the mortgage" and "don't pay off the mortgage".  I like to point out that if you have this choice to make, you're in really great shape and so long as that money is working for you, neither answer is wrong.  Heck, you could even pay off half the mortgage and invest the other half.  That's now wrong either.

Oh, for sure. We do feel very fortunate that we have this choice. I think part of what makes the math hard is that we have that $160k sitting in a money market earning about 1.7% (last time I checked). So it's not covering the interest on the mortgage. But it's my hedge against a market downturn and our cash fund that we can raid if we need to without increasing our taxes for the year.

Speaking of taxes, I did switch one of our brokerage accounts (about $600k) to push dividends to cash. I feel like if I'm going to have to pay the taxes on it anyway, I might as well be able to use it. So as that accumulates we can use it to pay down the mortgage.

On the topic of Roth conversion, I haven't thought a lot about it but it's on my list of things to do. It didn't make sense to do anything while I'm still working and our income was >$200k.
Our breakdown is-
24% of the $2.5M is already in Roths (a good portion is an inherited roth which I have to take RMDs on)
35% is in traditional IRAs and 403B & 401A.
41% is in a brokerage and can be used at will.
So it may make sense to investigate moving some of the traditional IRAs over. I will say, an investment advisor convinced my mother to convert $300k to a Roth and I do not think that was a good decision. She paid taxes at around 35% on it (over two years) and ended up paying higher Medicare rates for at least two or three years because of it. All so I could inherit the Roth instead. The taxes on the RMD may never amount to what she paid, because of my life expectancy and RE. So whoever did that math on that sucked, and I'm still pissed that she didn't consult me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: trashtalk on November 27, 2019, 08:46:48 AM

For mortgages, we paid ours down to a trivial amount (four figures) but didn't pay it off completely.

This way the homeowner's insurance and property taxes are still withdrawn automatically from the escrow account and we don't have to fuss with tracking that separately.

Our food budget is now larger than our housing spend, including utilities and routine maintenance (lightbulbs and filters and so forth).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 27, 2019, 09:23:22 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 27, 2019, 04:09:09 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 26, 2019, 02:43:13 PM

Well I see a 2017 Toyota Corolla for $13,200 near me so maybe it is possible to get a good deal on a used Japanese car.
You'll definitely want to have an auto mechanic look it over.

I bought a Corolla a year and a half ago 2016 with 7k miles on it for 12k plus change actually from a reputable dealer so there out there. Also bought a Kia Soul for my DS in College around the same time down in NC with around the same mileage, same year and same price.

I don't know how the math works for used cars, I think the dealers also need to make some money, which may add to the total cost of a used car.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on November 27, 2019, 10:20:06 AM

We are still carrying a pair of largish mortgages.

I know it’s a risk keeping them, but the leverage has worked in my favour for 20 years, and I don’t feel nervous about it. I like having the extra invested in stocks compared to what we otherwise would have.

Currently our debt is about 22% of our total gross assets.

When house prices dropped 10 or 15% in Sydney last year the paper losses were impressive, but over the long run I’ve done well being in debt.

I am still working though. I suspect once I am not working I will become far more risk averse.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 27, 2019, 10:23:02 AM

Beancounter, we'll have to make the pay-off or don't-payoff mortgage decision in a couple of years.  We owe 175K on the Florida house.   The sale of the free and clear Louisiana property would pay it off.   We live and still work in Louisiana, until we FIRE.  Our liquid net worth is 2.3M and cash reserves are about 65K, our cash was once about 125K and I liked that amount.  The down payment on the Florida house, new roof Florida house, furniture, paint, etc., knocked our cash way down.   The cash is slowly building back, but I need to replace a vehicle before FIRE.   I'm actually considering a big luxury SUV or truck.   The 2017/2018 models coming off lease take a huge hit in price vs new.  I'm replacing a tired old Honda Accord that I only trust as a commuter now.    I also have a 2008 F250 that I  will likely sell when we move.  Paying taxes and registration fees for the old truck in Florida doesn't make sense.   The new car purchase will be registered in Florida.  Anyway, similar decision to be made.   Our kids are out of college.   Oldest sons health isn't great and now my wife has had some issues as well.  Still hopefully early 2021we quit and make the permanent Florida move.  For two additional years, 2023 I'm eligible for lifetime company health benefits for both me and my wife.  That carrot is still out there.  With 7 weeks of paid time off, working isn't the chore it once was.   My wife spent a month home after recent surgery, I  really enjoyed having her home and not working.  She doesn't want to quit till I do however, so I'll support that.

Good luck too you all in the fine tuning stage of early retirement planning.   Those of you that have already FIRE'd, thanks for staying around to guide the rest of us in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 27, 2019, 11:50:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 27, 2019, 10:23:02 AM

For two additional years, 2023 I'm eligible for lifetime company health benefits for both me and my wife. 

Is this a subsidy for a health insurance premium whereby you only pay a small fraction of the cost ?
It's understandable to want to get that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 27, 2019, 11:59:50 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 27, 2019, 11:50:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 27, 2019, 10:23:02 AM

For two additional years, 2023 I'm eligible for lifetime company health benefits for both me and my wife. 

Is this a subsidy for a health insurance premium whereby you only pay a small fraction of the cost ?
It's understandable to want to get that.

Yep, 2 years to mitigate that risk for the rest of your life is a very reasonable one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 27, 2019, 03:51:24 PM

It bumped through the old ceiling again!

Record highs!

https://www.thestreet.com/markets/stocks-hit-record-highs-third-day-on-positive-trade-news-from-trump-15183535 (https://www.thestreet.com/markets/stocks-hit-record-highs-third-day-on-positive-trade-news-from-trump-15183535)

Pfizer was one of the big stock leaders so I guess the record high was done with drugs.

So,........another reason for a Happy Thanksgiving!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 27, 2019, 05:19:30 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 27, 2019, 03:51:24 PM

It bumped through the old ceiling again!
Record highs!
... Happy Thanksgiving!

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/b5b525642d31fc32571618da55f973e5/tenor.gif?itemid=4786736)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 28, 2019, 03:01:33 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 27, 2019, 03:51:24 PM

https://www.thestreet.com/markets/stocks-hit-record-highs-third-day-on-positive-trade-news-from-trump-15183535 (https://www.thestreet.com/markets/stocks-hit-record-highs-third-day-on-positive-trade-news-from-trump-15183535)

Pfizer was one of the big stock leaders so I guess the record high was done with drugs.

Ironically, Pfizer has been one of the worst ever stocks in my portfolio. Back in the late 90s, we bought a few individual shares during the height of the bubble and have held on to them now for over 20 years. I just checked and see that the Pfizer shares are now finally worth what I paid for them in 1998 :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 28, 2019, 04:22:18 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 28, 2019, 03:01:33 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 27, 2019, 03:51:24 PM

https://www.thestreet.com/markets/stocks-hit-record-highs-third-day-on-positive-trade-news-from-trump-15183535 (https://www.thestreet.com/markets/stocks-hit-record-highs-third-day-on-positive-trade-news-from-trump-15183535)

Pfizer was one of the big stock leaders so I guess the record high was done with drugs.

Ironically, Pfizer has been one of the worst ever stocks in my portfolio. Back in the late 90s, we bought a few individual shares during the height of the bubble and have held on to them now for over 20 years. I just checked and see that the Pfizer shares are now finally worth what I paid for them in 1998 :-)

Awesome! yea they were definitely one of those companies that just didn't seem for the longest time to be able to get out of there own way. I owned shares several times back when I thought I was a day trader. Always got frustrated!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 28, 2019, 08:12:33 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 28, 2019, 03:01:33 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 27, 2019, 03:51:24 PM

https://www.thestreet.com/markets/stocks-hit-record-highs-third-day-on-positive-trade-news-from-trump-15183535 (https://www.thestreet.com/markets/stocks-hit-record-highs-third-day-on-positive-trade-news-from-trump-15183535)

Pfizer was one of the big stock leaders so I guess the record high was done with drugs.

Ironically, Pfizer has been one of the worst ever stocks in my portfolio. Back in the late 90s, we bought a few individual shares during the height of the bubble and have held on to them now for over 20 years. I just checked and see that the Pfizer shares are now finally worth what I paid for them in 1998 :-)

Wow I also bought a few stocks in the late 90's just like you did. But in the mid-2000's I gave that up and sold them and put the money instead in the stock index fund.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MishMash on November 28, 2019, 09:18:08 AM

with the new market highs, we've squeezed into your club.  71 is in the house, but we also have a large antique gold coin collection worth the same so I guess that breaks even.

Also not including DHs military pension (2 years until eligible) as 1. it's not written in stone yet and 2. not really sure how one would value it with it being inflation adjusted. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on November 29, 2019, 06:30:21 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2019, 06:38:40 AM

It can't be all about numbers all the time. If it was I'd keep working my cushy six figure job because the math says at my age that makes sense. But I don't want to end up dead with $5M and not enough memories with my kids. (I would like to leave some money to my kids to help with their retirement, but that's a topic for another day)
Happy Thanksgiving guys. I'll be cooking a turkey for 12 in my new kitchen. My boys are excited about the pie buffet after the turkey, and football.  Life is good!

It is. You're doing it right, IMHO. We're probably a few years ahead of you on the life curve. My wife gave up her six-figure career to be a stay at home parent a decade ago, while I continued to work. We have zero regrets. Turns out I really didn't need to keep working but we hadn't discovered the FIRE movement then and the 08/09 market crash hit us hard. We're both FIRE now (OK, I still work part time, but not because we need the money). So far the kids are turning out beautifully. We're doing college visits with kid1, incredibly.

Regarding a mortgage, we don't bother with one - we wrote a check for this house. It's such a small part of our overall net worth that it isn't worth the bother, plus I admit we're both averse to debt. We had a mortgage (and HELOC) during the early accumulation phase, like everybody else, and it worked out well. No need for it now. Each to their own, though.

Regarding cars, I say let him have the Honda he wants. I haven't found many low interest finance deals to beat a cash deal, and we just wrote check for our last two new cars. And we do buy new. We don't care about a few $k depreciation. Friends just keep having horror stories with used cars. Don't need the hassle. We're talking a Honda van and a VW Golf, mind, not Beamers and ridiculous stuff like that. Neighbor bought a Tesla 3 with "only 5 short years till I own it". No, that's not for me. Never was.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 29, 2019, 10:00:12 AM

Quote from: AdrianC on November 29, 2019, 06:30:21 AM

Regarding cars, I say let him have the Honda he wants. I haven't found many low interest finance deals to beat a cash deal, and we just wrote check for our last two new cars. And we do buy new. We don't care about a few $k depreciation. Friends just keep having horror stories with used cars. Don't need the hassle. We're talking a Honda van and a VW Golf, mind, not Beamers and ridiculous stuff like that. Neighbor bought a Tesla 3 with "only 5 short years till I own it". No, that's not for me. Never was.

We only bought our first car as used and it was a horrible story. Even when we were still in graduate school, we bought our 2nd car as new cars, and never bought any used cars. We drove our cars for about 10+ years, until they got totaled or not ran anymore then were donated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 29, 2019, 12:32:51 PM

A year and a half into FIRE and we've crossed the $2.7M threshold.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 29, 2019, 02:24:33 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 29, 2019, 12:32:51 PM

A year and a half into FIRE and we've crossed the $2.7M threshold.   

I'm betting a lot of FIRE bloggers will have some impressive gains to report in their November reports!  Looks like a little over 3% gain (which means you probably saw ~$80k gain last month).  It felt like a pretty strong rally for sure.

I found a good deal on an Alaska cruise so we are spending a bit to help the economy :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 29, 2019, 04:49:08 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 29, 2019, 02:24:33 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 29, 2019, 12:32:51 PM

A year and a half into FIRE and we've crossed the $2.7M threshold.   

I'm betting a lot of FIRE bloggers will have some impressive gains to report in their November reports!  Looks like a little over 3% gain (which means you probably saw ~$80k gain last month).  It felt like a pretty strong rally for sure.

I found a good deal on an Alaska cruise so we are spending a bit to help the economy :)

A goodly chunk of our net worth is in real estate so we didn't see such big gains.  But we won't see such big losses in the recession, either. :)   For us, since we're retired, that's the way we like it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 30, 2019, 02:34:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 29, 2019, 04:49:08 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 29, 2019, 02:24:33 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 29, 2019, 12:32:51 PM

A year and a half into FIRE and we've crossed the $2.7M threshold.   

I'm betting a lot of FIRE bloggers will have some impressive gains to report in their November reports!  Looks like a little over 3% gain (which means you probably saw ~$80k gain last month).  It felt like a pretty strong rally for sure.

I found a good deal on an Alaska cruise so we are spending a bit to help the economy :)

A goodly chunk of our net worth is in real estate so we didn't see such big gains.  But we won't see such big losses in the recession, either. :)   For us, since we're retired, that's the way we like it.

I didnt see the big gains either but appreciate what we did get out of it because with the market being toppy imo we doubled our real estate ownership part of our networth percentage by buying hopefully what will be our forever home and are sitting on a bit more cash than usual that we will live on the next 3 years or till market adjusts. Plus our portfolio is more conservative now. But we are overall with the paid for house the highest over 3M we have been though still not by much but were not tip toeing back n forth over it like before either.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on December 01, 2019, 09:11:13 AM

If all my portfolio were S&P500 since 2009, I would have at least one more million dollars.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 01, 2019, 12:09:48 PM

You are not alone.  I read Donald Trump would have been a true billionaire and then some if he had taken his inherited money and placed it in Index Funds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 02, 2019, 06:17:38 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on December 01, 2019, 09:11:13 AM

If all my portfolio were S&P500 since 2009, I would have at least one more million dollars.

Yeah, I'm sure my international allocation has cost me half-million over being all in US.  Who knows what's next...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 02, 2019, 07:02:35 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on December 02, 2019, 06:17:38 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on December 01, 2019, 09:11:13 AM

If all my portfolio were S&P500 since 2009, I would have at least one more million dollars.

Yeah, I'm sure my international allocation has cost me half-million over being all in US.  Who knows what's next...

From what I read, most international stocks are moving more or less in lock step with the US markets nowadays so being invested in international stocks ought not to have a big impact.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 02, 2019, 07:13:30 AM

Quote from: pecunia on December 01, 2019, 12:09:48 PM

You are not alone.  I read Donald Trump would have been a true billionaire and then some if he had taken his inherited money and placed it in Index Funds.

This is a popular anti-Trump narrative pushed by those who dislike him

Bloomberg discusses why this narrative is flawed

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-09-03/should-donald-trump-have-indexed-?utm_source=url_link

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on December 02, 2019, 08:15:07 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 02, 2019, 07:02:35 AM

From what I read, most international stocks are moving more or less in lock step with the US markets nowadays so being invested in international stocks ought not to have a big impact.

There's a lot mis-information out there about international and I feel the financial industry is selling a pig with lipstick. International markets do not move in lockstep with US markets.
Over the last 5 years the market correlations with the SP500 for various countries has been:

Australia .69
UK .77
India .36
China .69
Brazil .28

Definitely not moving in lock-step. And definitely has had a huge downward weight on portfolios with significant exposure.

All the financial wizard advice about having 40% of assets in international ignores how businesses actually make money. It doesn't take into account where profits are made. If you invest in the SP500 about 43% of revenue is already derived from overseas sources. In effect by purchasing international funds you are overweighting the impact of those markets.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on December 02, 2019, 08:23:18 AM

just popped in to say happy Monday, and welcome to December.   Plows just went down my street.

I really like this thread, it feels like a more moderate thread than some of the others.  Folks have their opinions but are open to other points of view or at least agreeing to disagree.  Pay off the mortgage, don't pay it off, buy a new car, never buy a new car.   It's a thread for people who can 'afford it', but are choosing where and how to spend their money.

Because I put a dollar value to DH defined benefit pension, I've been a member of this thread for a while, but with market gains the last week, we officially have more than $2 million of investable assets and I can finally call myself a millionaire (DH and I agreed years ago that we need 2 million of liquid assests as a couple for us to call ourselves millionaires).  $2 million is our number, although, now that I'm here, OMY has kicked in.   I like my job, he hates his, he's retiring at the beginning of next summer (2020), I think I'll hang in until spring of 2021, assuming the job stays fun.  I like what I do, who I work for and with, if that changes, FU money kicks in.   I may even try going down to 3 days a week, although I fear that would just mean working 5 days and getting paid for 3 (I have some boundary issues, and the nature of my job - there is almost always a crisis to work on, and I tend to getting really involved - I love a good puzzle, and I'm very very good at it)

Part of the reason for my OMY syndrome - we're in the process of building our 'dream' home in a vacation area, I know there will be lots of extra costs once the house is finished and we've moved in next summer.....dock, boat, replacement cars (mine is 16 years old, his 13), landscaping, some new furniture.

I've designed our retirement budget with three buckets -
1) bare bones, not fun, but we have food and heat
2) live like we live now - a pretty good life
3) Fat FIRE - take the trips we want, buy the things we want get a new car every 7-8 years etc

My plan is if the economy has an off year, we drop down to option 2 until things recover....if the apocalypse happens, we drop down to option 1, we get better at gardening, and huntin' and fishin'. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 02, 2019, 08:53:51 AM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 02, 2019, 07:13:30 AM

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-09-03/should-donald-trump-have-indexed-?utm_source=url_link

That was a pretty interesting read, although the repeated point that Trump would starve to death while having billions in Index funds was kinda ridiculous.

Quote

So it seems like Trump has outperformed the S&P 500 over his career. But the main line of criticism is that he has underperformed the S&P over some other, shorter period. Matthews says, "If you compare Trump's performance since 1982, when the stock market started to take off after the early-'80s recession, it looks pretty abysmal." If Trump had taken his 1982 net worth of $200 million, cashed it out, and put it all in an index fund with reinvested dividends, he (would again be dead of not eating, but his heirs) would have $6.3 billion today. Similarly, the Associated Press math has Trump cashing out his $1 billion net worth in 1988 -- shortly after the 1987 stock market crash -- and putting it in index funds worth $13 billion today.

Ignoring the questionable assumptions, I think the message was that Trump's brand name value has outpaced S&P return but, more importantly, he's been able to have more fun and lead a better life more suited to his persona by investing in himself.  Can't really disagree with that, although I kinda wish he'd just sat on billions in index funds and not become President.  Also, for Trump, the top is probably in :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 02, 2019, 08:58:31 AM

^ the point is, when an investor indexes, the funds are fully deployed with minimal to no withdrawals for decades

Trump has enjoyed index-like returns and massive consumption for himself and his family and friends. If I had the ability, this would be preferable to indexing - which is just storing money to use just before death

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on December 02, 2019, 10:01:43 AM

Quote from: bluebelle on December 02, 2019, 08:23:18 AM

just popped in to say happy Monday, and welcome to December.   Plows just went down my street.

I really like this thread, it feels like a more moderate thread than some of the others.  Folks have their opinions but are open to other points of view or at least agreeing to disagree.  Pay off the mortgage, don't pay it off, buy a new car, never buy a new car.   It's a thread for people who can 'afford it', but are choosing where and how to spend their money.

Because I put a dollar value to DH defined benefit pension, I've been a member of this thread for a while, but with market gains the last week, we officially have more than $2 million of investable assets and I can finally call myself a millionaire (DH and I agreed years ago that we need 2 million of liquid assests as a couple for us to call ourselves millionaires).  $2 million is our number, although, now that I'm here, OMY has kicked in.   I like my job, he hates his, he's retiring at the beginning of next summer (2020), I think I'll hang in until spring of 2021, assuming the job stays fun.  I like what I do, who I work for and with, if that changes, FU money kicks in.   I may even try going down to 3 days a week, although I fear that would just mean working 5 days and getting paid for 3 (I have some boundary issues, and the nature of my job - there is almost always a crisis to work on, and I tend to getting really involved - I love a good puzzle, and I'm very very good at it)

Part of the reason for my OMY syndrome - we're in the process of building our 'dream' home in a vacation area, I know there will be lots of extra costs once the house is finished and we've moved in next summer.....dock, boat, replacement cars (mine is 16 years old, his 13), landscaping, some new furniture.

I've designed our retirement budget with three buckets -
1) bare bones, not fun, but we have food and heat
2) live like we live now - a pretty good life
3) Fat FIRE - take the trips we want, buy the things we want get a new car every 7-8 years etc

My plan is if the economy has an off year, we drop down to option 2 until things recover....if the apocalypse happens, we drop down to option 1, we get better at gardening, and huntin' and fishin'.

Welcome.

I'd like to hear more about the fatFIRE part of the story.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on December 02, 2019, 10:04:18 AM

Quote from: bluebelle on December 02, 2019, 08:23:18 AM

I've designed our retirement budget with three buckets -
1) bare bones, not fun, but we have food and heat
2) live like we live now - a pretty good life
3) Fat FIRE - take the trips we want, buy the things we want get a new car every 7-8 years etc

I’m quite a number of years away from my target retirement but i’ve considered a similar retirement strategy to yours. Personally I’m most interested in a fat retirement but i’m not sure how to budget for things like healthcare. Obamacare coverages in my area seem lousy compared to my current health plan. How are you approaching healthcare costs? Also how are you budgeting for travel?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on December 02, 2019, 10:04:32 AM

Quote from: carstenjames on December 02, 2019, 08:15:07 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 02, 2019, 07:02:35 AM

From what I read, most international stocks are moving more or less in lock step with the US markets nowadays so being invested in international stocks ought not to have a big impact.

There's a lot mis-information out there about international and I feel the financial industry is selling a pig with lipstick. International markets do not move in lockstep with US markets.
Over the last 5 years the market correlations with the SP500 for various countries has been:

Australia .69
UK .77
India .36
China .69
Brazil .28

Definitely not moving in lock-step. And definitely has had a huge downward weight on portfolios with significant exposure.

All the financial wizard advice about having 40% of assets in international ignores how businesses actually make money. It doesn't take into account where profits are made. If you invest in the SP500 about 43% of revenue is already derived from overseas sources. In effect by purchasing international funds you are overweighting the impact of those markets.

I think the SP500 has been performing well because people "think" it will do well (and it did well), regardless of the value. This is like a bubble which will grow until it pops.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on December 02, 2019, 10:18:38 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on December 02, 2019, 10:04:32 AM

I think the SP500 has been performing well because people "think" it will do well (and it did well), regardless of the value. This is like a bubble which will grow until it pops.

I agree that there is an emotional component to investment returns but we often discount the effects of monetary policy on stock prices too. If interest rates stay in the 0-3% range, us stocks look fairly priced to me. If interest rates expand much beyond that then stocks will start looking expensive. The 2017 tax policy changes also have a positive impact on balance sheets which has translated to higher valuations.

Point is: its really hard to time the markets. On these forums people have been declaring a top since at least 2014; but 2019 is nearly over and we are significantly higher than we were in 2014. I dont know that we wont plunge in to recession tomorrow but I am still optimistic for the US long-term. We have significant advantages compared to other economies and if we dont throw those away with poor economic policy like a wealth tax, UBI, etc. I’m putting my money where my mouth is and investing in US stocks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 02, 2019, 06:28:06 PM

@carstenjames You're right we do have advantages here that other economies do not.

We are are a much more "purely capitalistic" than others. For example NO other country refers to the "Healthcare sector", which in the US is worth about 17% of the entire economy.

To a European, healthcare is not something the country makes a profit on, rather the Government uses its purchasing power to screw down prices as low as possible.. In the US it is illegal for Uncle Sam to negotiate drug prices.. One could argue this is corrupt too.. I certainly do.

Simple math also says that if the stock market grows on average by 10% per year than healthcare should represent about 1.7%.. (10% X 17%).

So if you have a $1M index fund portfolio, HC makes you about $17,000 per year.

Quite an uplift if you have a multimillion $ stash!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 02, 2019, 08:03:11 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 02, 2019, 07:02:35 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on December 02, 2019, 06:17:38 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on December 01, 2019, 09:11:13 AM

If all my portfolio were S&P500 since 2009, I would have at least one more million dollars.

Yeah, I'm sure my international allocation has cost me half-million over being all in US.  Who knows what's next...

From what I read, most international stocks are moving more or less in lock step with the US markets nowadays so being invested in international stocks ought not to have a big impact.

Well, more specifically the 5 year/10 year returns of VTSMX is 10%/13% and VGTSX is more like 4%/5%.  Thats a pretty huge difference and in general what I have been seeing as the difference between the two the the past decade.  Again, could obviously all change for the next 10 years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on December 03, 2019, 06:42:36 AM

Quote from: carstenjames on December 02, 2019, 08:15:07 AM

All the financial wizard advice about having 40% of assets in international ignores how businesses actually make money. It doesn't take into account where profits are made. If you invest in the SP500 about 43% of revenue is already derived from overseas sources. In effect by purchasing international funds you are overweighting the impact of those markets.

And companies based overseas make money in the US. If you don't invest internationally you're missing out on some pretty big, successful, money-making companies, who are currently quite cheap compared to the US market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on December 03, 2019, 06:51:46 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on December 02, 2019, 10:01:43 AM

Quote from: bluebelle on December 02, 2019, 08:23:18 AM

just popped in to say happy Monday, and welcome to December.   Plows just went down my street.

I really like this thread, it feels like a more moderate thread than some of the others.  Folks have their opinions but are open to other points of view or at least agreeing to disagree.  Pay off the mortgage, don't pay it off, buy a new car, never buy a new car.   It's a thread for people who can 'afford it', but are choosing where and how to spend their money.

Because I put a dollar value to DH defined benefit pension, I've been a member of this thread for a while, but with market gains the last week, we officially have more than $2 million of investable assets and I can finally call myself a millionaire (DH and I agreed years ago that we need 2 million of liquid assests as a couple for us to call ourselves millionaires).  $2 million is our number, although, now that I'm here, OMY has kicked in.   I like my job, he hates his, he's retiring at the beginning of next summer (2020), I think I'll hang in until spring of 2021, assuming the job stays fun.  I like what I do, who I work for and with, if that changes, FU money kicks in.   I may even try going down to 3 days a week, although I fear that would just mean working 5 days and getting paid for 3 (I have some boundary issues, and the nature of my job - there is almost always a crisis to work on, and I tend to getting really involved - I love a good puzzle, and I'm very very good at it)

Part of the reason for my OMY syndrome - we're in the process of building our 'dream' home in a vacation area, I know there will be lots of extra costs once the house is finished and we've moved in next summer.....dock, boat, replacement cars (mine is 16 years old, his 13), landscaping, some new furniture.

I've designed our retirement budget with three buckets -
1) bare bones, not fun, but we have food and heat
2) live like we live now - a pretty good life
3) Fat FIRE - take the trips we want, buy the things we want get a new car every 7-8 years etc

My plan is if the economy has an off year, we drop down to option 2 until things recover....if the apocalypse happens, we drop down to option 1, we get better at gardening, and huntin' and fishin'.

Welcome.

I'd like to hear more about the fatFIRE part of the story.

My FAT FIRE may sound like someone else's Tuesday, we all ride our own ride.....but our retirement 'plan' includes some motorcycle trips, and many of those will include trailering the bikes somewhere.   The plan also includes a few big trips, maybe every other year, to Europe, Hawaii, UK.   And we will be living Ontario's cottage country, so there will be lots of opportunity to boat/fish, hike, snowshoe, maybe get a couple of sleds.   I'm thinking of taking up golf again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 03, 2019, 06:55:21 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on December 02, 2019, 08:03:11 PM

Well, more specifically the 5 year/10 year returns of VTSMX is 10%/13% and VGTSX is more like 4%/5%.  Thats a pretty huge difference and in general what I have been seeing as the difference between the two the the past decade.  Again, could obviously all change for the next 10 years.

Inspired by your comment, I dug into this and found that you are right. It occurs to me that there is also currency exchange risk in international investing. For example, the Indian Rupee has gone from 62 to 72 (per US Dollar) in the last five years while the SENSEX (their main index) has gone up. I see identical trends in Turkey and Brazil as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on December 03, 2019, 07:42:58 AM

Quote from: carstenjames on December 02, 2019, 10:04:18 AM

Quote from: bluebelle on December 02, 2019, 08:23:18 AM

I've designed our retirement budget with three buckets -
1) bare bones, not fun, but we have food and heat
2) live like we live now - a pretty good life
3) Fat FIRE - take the trips we want, buy the things we want get a new car every 7-8 years etc

I’m quite a number of years away from my target retirement but i’ve considered a similar retirement strategy to yours. Personally I’m most interested in a fat retirement but i’m not sure how to budget for things like healthcare. Obamacare coverages in my area seem lousy compared to my current health plan. How are you approaching healthcare costs? Also how are you budgeting for travel?

Thanks!

I'm in Canada, so our healthcare costs are different.   I've budgeted $500 a month for our "free" healthcare premium.  (our free health care does not include dental, vision care, prescriptions, hearing aides or any parmamedical {massage, orthodics, physio})  Prescription costs should drop down dramatically once we're 65, as currently seniors pay a lower dispensing fee and $100/year co-pay for prescriptions, but as our population ages, I don't see how that is sustainable, but it is not currently means tested.   I looked at what a
I have budgeted $15K a year for travel.   Neither of us are big 'resort' type travelers, and are happy in places with a kitchenette

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 03, 2019, 11:16:14 AM

We've officially crossed over into the $4M bucket. Barely (under $10k over). Without our primary residence equity, we're at $2.4M.

Because our primary residence is so $$$$, our current big goal is to get the loan value under $1M. I know that's a crazy big number, and while we're in good shape with equity, we both still feel very uncomfortable with the giant loan looming over us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 03, 2019, 11:27:31 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 03, 2019, 11:16:14 AM

We've officially crossed over into the $4M bucket. Barely (under $10k over). Without our primary residence equity, we're at $2.4M.

Because our primary residence is so $$$$, our current big goal is to get the loan value under $1M. I know that's a crazy big number, and while we're in good shape with equity, we both still feel very uncomfortable with the giant loan looming over us.

Golly.   I can understand that!    I can't imagine having anywhere near that much debt!   The most we've ever had was $114K house and $55k business loan and 2 x $16k cars, or $201K, and that bugged me.   We paid it all off within 11 years.   

But at least you have a whopping big stash!   Congrats on that!   Well done!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 03, 2019, 12:13:27 PM

@SwordGuy - we would like to have our house paid off in seven years (total loan time), which I think is realistic. We've already paid off more than a million as well, so we're churning through it quickly, but anything can happen & we want it paid off as quickly as possible while still making smart tradeoffs. Bay area real estate... definitely comes with major tradeoffs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 03, 2019, 01:49:29 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 03, 2019, 12:13:27 PM

@SwordGuy - we would like to have our house paid off in seven years (total loan time),

If you're going to get a 7-year itch, that's about the best one to get! :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on December 03, 2019, 04:36:59 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 03, 2019, 11:16:14 AM

We've officially crossed over into the $4M bucket. Barely (under $10k over). Without our primary residence equity, we're at $2.4M.

Because our primary residence is so $$$$, our current big goal is to get the loan value under $1M. I know that's a crazy big number, and while we're in good shape with equity, we both still feel very uncomfortable with the giant loan looming over us.

My goodness, congrats on the healthy NW but I totally understand your uncomfortability with such a large loan. When I have visited the Bay Area it has a lot to offer that I really enjoy. I'd be so fat if the bakery Tartine was in my city!!! But real estate costs are just out of this world. Good luck paying down the loan.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on December 03, 2019, 04:48:10 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 03, 2019, 11:16:14 AM

We've officially crossed over into the $4M bucket. Barely (under $10k over). Without our primary residence equity, we're at $2.4M.

Because our primary residence is so $$$$, our current big goal is to get the loan value under $1M. I know that's a crazy big number, and while we're in good shape with equity, we both still feel very uncomfortable with the giant loan looming over us.

So your house is worth at least $2.6M? Hope it is also enjoyable.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on December 03, 2019, 04:50:51 PM

Quote from: bluebelle on December 03, 2019, 06:51:46 AM

My FAT FIRE may sound like someone else's Tuesday, we all ride our own ride.....but our retirement 'plan' includes some motorcycle trips, and many of those will include trailering the bikes somewhere.   The plan also includes a few big trips, maybe every other year, to Europe, Hawaii, UK.   And we will be living Ontario's cottage country, so there will be lots of opportunity to boat/fish, hike, snowshoe, maybe get a couple of sleds.   I'm thinking of taking up golf again.

Looks like travels of various kinds are always on the list of fatFIRE people.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 03, 2019, 04:52:25 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on December 03, 2019, 04:48:10 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 03, 2019, 11:16:14 AM

We've officially crossed over into the $4M bucket. Barely (under $10k over). Without our primary residence equity, we're at $2.4M.

Because our primary residence is so $$$$, our current big goal is to get the loan value under $1M. I know that's a crazy big number, and while we're in good shape with equity, we both still feel very uncomfortable with the giant loan looming over us.

So your house is worth at least $2.6M? Hope it is also enjoyable.

Yes, it's worth more than that. I wouldn't describe it as super enjoyable - it's a fixer upper that we are slowly working on.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 04, 2019, 12:17:27 AM

I'm at the Florida house this week doing some work.  I'm worn out from climbing in and out of the attic what must have been 25 times.  I'm mounting  new air conditioning unit with zero help.  The house is a wreck now, sheetrock dust and insulation everywhere.  It was so clean when I arrived Monday.  Just checking in with you fine folks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 04, 2019, 01:18:30 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 03, 2019, 04:52:25 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on December 03, 2019, 04:48:10 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 03, 2019, 11:16:14 AM

We've officially crossed over into the $4M bucket. Barely (under $10k over). Without our primary residence equity, we're at $2.4M.

Because our primary residence is so $$$$, our current big goal is to get the loan value under $1M. I know that's a crazy big number, and while we're in good shape with equity, we both still feel very uncomfortable with the giant loan looming over us.

So your house is worth at least $2.6M? Hope it is also enjoyable.

Yes, it's worth more than that. I wouldn't describe it as super enjoyable - it's a fixer upper that we are slowly working on.

Dicey shakes her head with a wry grin. Of course it's a fixer upper! Welcome to Bay Area Real Estate! #Whaddayagonnado?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 04, 2019, 04:31:08 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 04, 2019, 01:18:30 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 03, 2019, 04:52:25 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on December 03, 2019, 04:48:10 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 03, 2019, 11:16:14 AM

We've officially crossed over into the $4M bucket. Barely (under $10k over). Without our primary residence equity, we're at $2.4M.

Because our primary residence is so $$$$, our current big goal is to get the loan value under $1M. I know that's a crazy big number, and while we're in good shape with equity, we both still feel very uncomfortable with the giant loan looming over us.

So your house is worth at least $2.6M? Hope it is also enjoyable.

Yes, it's worth more than that. I wouldn't describe it as super enjoyable - it's a fixer upper that we are slowly working on.

Dicey shakes her head with a wry grin. Of course it's a fixer upper! Welcome to Bay Area Real Estate! #Whaddayagonnado?

2.6 million for a fixer upper is hard to fathom but i get it. I just paid 180k for a flip house starting today that should fetch close to 300k. I just bought a Lake house were moving into which was over 7 and I will have 8 into by the time I am done but Lake houses where I live are about as safe an investment your gonna find. Good luck though on getting it all updated. I like Swordguy couldnt imagine that debt but the bright side is it sounds like a good investment for you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 04, 2019, 07:32:33 AM

@Dicey - yes, exactly. We are making small tweaks as we can, but are more motivated to pay down the albatross mortgage than put more money into the house at the moment. Hopefully that time will come. It needs quite a bit of work, but, we're both less than 8 miles from work, so we've optimized for schools & commute time

@soccerluvof4 - it's definitely a good investment & has grown in value quite a bit since we bought it. I still think a lot could happen (both ways) in bay area real estate, so want to make sure we're in a great position to weather whatever is around the corner.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: chasesfish on December 04, 2019, 07:33:28 AM

Posting to follow.  Just crossed the $2mil mark recently

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 04, 2019, 10:38:22 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 04, 2019, 07:32:33 AM

@Dicey - yes, exactly. We are making small tweaks as we can, but are more motivated to pay down the albatross mortgage than put more money into the house at the moment. Hopefully that time will come. It needs quite a bit of work, but, we're both less than 8 miles from work, so we've optimized for schools & commute time

@soccerluvof4 - it's definitely a good investment & has grown in value quite a bit since we bought it. I still think a lot could happen (both ways) in bay area real estate, so want to make sure we're in a great position to weather whatever is around the corner.

@MaybeBabyMustache, contrary to what some might think, I have zero problem with that because you've done the math and because you're there. You're there. You've done the optimization and you're not going to run out of money.

Random thought, based on experience/observation. I think it's kinda sad when people fix up their house just before they sell. Why not do the work and then enjoy the fruits of your labors? If and when you sell, it will still show that it's been updated. To that end, might I gently suggest you make the house the way you want it so you can be comfortable there for as long as you choose to be? That could be a really good reason for changing your focus.

Happily, there are no wrong answers, because you're not going to decide to turn your house into the Taj Mahal ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 04, 2019, 11:58:19 AM

Good question on timing of upgrades @Dicey . I think we both want to feel like the mortgage is at a "safer" level before we do anything major? If we dump a bunch of money into the projects, we will have to slow down our paydown to get the mortgage to the "safer" level. (And, "safer" is the wrong word, but I can't think of anything else. We can afford the mortgage, & have a ton of investments & other money, but we just don't want to be carrying that much debt). Once we get below $1M (likely this summer), I think we will be more balanced in our approach.

The hard part is that the house is just at the point where a full remodel wouldn't be a crazy idea vs the constant ongoing stream of upgrades required to make it at level with the real estate in our area. We have a shower planter. Like, the entire shower space is enormous, uncovered, and has a planter inside. There is no way to update it without an entire redo of the bathroom. There are many "interesting" choices like that. You do enough of them, and a full on remodel is likely both cheaper & easier - move it out & just get 'er done.

So far, we've done relatively stand alone projects - we added solar & A/C (house gets a lot of sun) & replaced all of the doors. We'll get trim done next & then the house will at least be somewhat put together. After that, we can decide whether a bathroom or kitchen remodel is in the cards.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on December 04, 2019, 12:26:43 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 03, 2019, 11:16:14 AM

We've officially crossed over into the $4M bucket. Barely (under $10k over). Without our primary residence equity, we're at $2.4M.

Because our primary residence is so $$$$, our current big goal is to get the loan value under $1M. I know that's a crazy big number, and while we're in good shape with equity, we both still feel very uncomfortable with the giant loan looming over us.

:)
I find this particularly interesting since without our home equity we are at $2.3M invested.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on December 04, 2019, 12:34:00 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 04, 2019, 07:32:33 AM

@Dicey - yes, exactly. We are making small tweaks as we can, but are more motivated to pay down the albatross mortgage than put more money into the house at the moment. Hopefully that time will come. It needs quite a bit of work, but, we're both less than 8 miles from work, so we've optimized for schools & commute time

@soccerluvof4 - it's definitely a good investment & has grown in value quite a bit since we bought it. I still think a lot could happen (both ways) in bay area real estate, so want to make sure we're in a great position to weather whatever is around the corner.

When you look back at the last massive real estate implosion though, your area barely blinked. Yes, prices stopped appreciating for several years, but it isn't like things dropped 50% like in the outlying areas. That said, we can never predict the future, but my guess is that particular fear is probably less probable than the next stock market meltdown.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 04, 2019, 03:58:23 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on December 04, 2019, 12:34:00 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 04, 2019, 07:32:33 AM

@Dicey - yes, exactly. We are making small tweaks as we can, but are more motivated to pay down the albatross mortgage than put more money into the house at the moment. Hopefully that time will come. It needs quite a bit of work, but, we're both less than 8 miles from work, so we've optimized for schools & commute time

@soccerluvof4 - it's definitely a good investment & has grown in value quite a bit since we bought it. I still think a lot could happen (both ways) in bay area real estate, so want to make sure we're in a great position to weather whatever is around the corner.

When you look back at the last massive real estate implosion though, your area barely blinked. Yes, prices stopped appreciating for several years, but it isn't like things dropped 50% like in the outlying areas. That said, we can never predict the future, but my guess is that particular fear is probably less probable than the next stock market meltdown.

Unless you re-fi, your payment is going to be the same no matter what your balance is. The mortgage lender cares far more about your ability to make payments than how much you may be "ahead" on the amount owing. If the SHTF for any reason, it's better to have money you can control.

If you're going to sell it at some point, sacrificing to pay it off sooner may not be all that important. Ysette is right about the housing prices, to a large extent. The only advantage of a pullback is that labor might be more readily available and therefore possibly less expensive. However, until the Santa Rosa area is completely rebuilt, there will be difficulties obtaining the services of tradespeople, no matter what the economy is doing.

Again, no wrong answer, just something to think about.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 04, 2019, 08:10:18 PM

@ysette9 - twins! And, fair point about how the market responded in the last downturn. In my head I know that, but when I crunch the numbers, crazy thoughts like earthquakes & global warming or increased wildlife fires tremendously impacting property value. In reality, that's unlikely to be a change that happens quickly, and we'd likely have much bigger problems than the resale value of our house. However...

@Dicey - it's a good point, and we won't refi. Something about getting under the $1m loan mark makes my inner bag lady feel reassured. After that, we would save for a remodel & pay cash for it. I find it super difficult to get anyone to our house for any project of any kind right now. We're looking into a project to make our landscaping drought resistant & low maintenance. We also plan to turn our covered porch into a cute patio/sitting area, which would require a bit of landscaping work. I called six people before I finally reached out to my local neighborhood group. They must be so desperate by the sad state of our yard that a few made personal referrals. ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 05, 2019, 02:45:16 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 04, 2019, 08:10:18 PM

@ysette9 - twins! And, fair point about how the market responded in the last downturn. In my head I know that, but when I crunch the numbers, crazy thoughts like earthquakes & global warming or increased wildlife fires tremendously impacting property value. In reality, that's unlikely to be a change that happens quickly, and we'd likely have much bigger problems than the resale value of our house. However...

@Dicey - it's a good point, and we won't refi. Something about getting under the $1m loan mark makes my inner bag lady feel reassured. After that, we would save for a remodel & pay cash for it. I find it super difficult to get anyone to our house for any project of any kind right now. We're looking into a project to make our landscaping drought resistant & low maintenance. We also plan to turn our covered porch into a cute patio/sitting area, which would require a bit of landscaping work. I called six people before I finally reached out to my local neighborhood group. They must be so desperate by the sad state of our yard that a few made personal referrals. ;-)

Well and lets face it, since your not turning into as Dicey said the Taj mahal (not sure if  I spelled that right(, Even if the market did drop it sounds as if you have plenty into it to still come out safely. Good luck in your venture.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on December 05, 2019, 08:54:31 AM

Just jumping back up the thread a little.... FatFire and travel...

Post retirement DW and aI hope to be able to travel fairly freely internationally as we do now, and Australia is an inconveniently expensive flight from the rest of the world, hence we need a good sum for travel.

I also have developed an unhealthy appetite for long haul business class flights over the past few years of doing lots of international business travel... and I’m not talking about budget airline business class, but the type of business class with Sky bars, lie flat beds, and high quality food and booze.

So, we decided to create a separate stash bucket for travel as it can not be considered the same way as food and utilities.

We agreed that of course we could easily cut back spending if markets misbehaved and we weren’t willing to work additional years to make our travel budget bulletproof, but rather will travel domestically or to NZ/ Bali/ Fiji in down years or fly economy to reduce spending. On this basis we are setting our stash assuming a very flexible 5.5% draw down rate.

We are budgeting:
   1. $14,000 AUD ($10,000 USD a year for flights), which will be enough for annual return business class flights to Europe/ Africa or the Americas (or 2 RTW business class flights every 3 years) and some domestic flights, and
   2. 75 days a year of travel costs at $350 AUD/ day ($250 USD/ day.

 In total we are looking to spend $40K AUD/yr ($28K USD)on travel... but anticipate some years we will spend less than $10K.

The $350/ day assumes sometimes we will be in cheap places like SE Asia, Eastern Europe, Latin America, or hiking or friends houses, and sometimes we will be in expensive places eg: African game parks, Scandinavia, NYC etc.

So using our 5.5% assumed draw down we will set aside a stash of $730K AUD (500K USD) for travel.

Having such a large travel stash adds confidence to the more critical parts of our FIRE financing.

Excessive I know, but we have saved diligently for 25+ years, maintaining a high savings rate throughout, to put ourselves in this position.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on December 05, 2019, 10:44:11 AM

I've separated our mortgage payment from the rest of our stache, conceptually, since we'll 1) keep the mortgage into FIRE, and 2) it's technically time-limited and finite, and so doesn't need to conform to the 4% rule in our minds. But hadn't thought to do that with travel, off to rerun some numbers, might shave a few months off our time!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 05, 2019, 11:31:27 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 05, 2019, 08:54:31 AM

I also have developed an unhealthy appetite for long haul business class flights over the past few years of doing lots of international business travel... and I’m not talking about budget airline business class, but the type of business class with Sky bars, lie flat beds, and high quality food and booze.

I have to travel regularly to take care of my parents who live in another country. Pretty much the only thing on which I splurge are business class tickets. Consider that my trips involve 18 hours of flying time (three or four times a year), getting some sleep has become essential for me. I don't care much about food and service as I barely eat onboard but getting good rest is well worth the cost. I also use credit card points to get discounts and mostly travel off-peak so fares are easily affordable for me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on December 05, 2019, 03:29:59 PM

I have a large line item in my budget ($30k) for travel and entertainment, but I have yet to justify paying for a business seat in international flights, which may cost $6,000 ~ $10,000 a seat. I guess I might do that for essential travels, not fun events, in the future when I am over 65.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jeroly on December 05, 2019, 08:06:20 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 05, 2019, 08:54:31 AM

Just jumping back up the thread a little.... FatFire and travel...

Post retirement DW and aI hope to be able to travel fairly freely internationally as we do now, and Australia is an inconveniently expensive flight from the rest of the world, hence we need a good sum for travel.

I also have developed an unhealthy appetite for long haul business class flights over the past few years of doing lots of international business travel... and I’m not talking about budget airline business class, but the type of business class with Sky bars, lie flat beds, and high quality food and booze.

So, we decided to create a separate stash bucket for travel as it can not be considered the same way as food and utilities.

We agreed that of course we could easily cut back spending if markets misbehaved and we weren’t willing to work additional years to make our travel budget bulletproof, but rather will travel domestically or to NZ/ Bali/ Fiji in down years or fly economy to reduce spending. On this basis we are setting our stash assuming a very flexible 5.5% draw down rate.

We are budgeting:
   1. $14,000 AUD ($10,000 USD a year for flights), which will be enough for annual return business class flights to Europe/ Africa or the Americas (or 2 RTW business class flights every 3 years) and some domestic flights, and
   2. 75 days a year of travel costs at $350 AUD/ day ($250 USD/ day.

 In total we are looking to spend $40K AUD/yr ($28K USD)on travel... but anticipate some years we will spend less than $10K.

The $350/ day assumes sometimes we will be in cheap places like SE Asia, Eastern Europe, Latin America, or hiking or friends houses, and sometimes we will be in expensive places eg: African game parks, Scandinavia, NYC etc.

So using our 5.5% assumed draw down we will set aside a stash of $730K AUD (500K USD) for travel.

Having such a large travel stash adds confidence to the more critical parts of our FIRE financing.

Excessive I know, but we have saved diligently for 25+ years, maintaining a high savings rate throughout, to put ourselves in this position.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.  Travel is a huge contributor to joy in my life and like you, I have given a great deal of thought to my budgeting for it.

A few questions on your numbers / thought process...

— How did you come up with the USD $10k cost for airfares for two people when you plan to buy business class fares? When I search for business class fares from say Perth to London I see costs of $5k per ticket on qantas, so there goes your entire budget in one trip....

— How did you come up with a 5.5% drawdown rate? While you could get lucky, that hasn’t been historically sustainable if you take inflation into account.

— Have you considered that instead of a permanent stash for your travel you consider it to be an expense for a limited number of years- perhaps until you’re 80? Then budgeted at a lower value until say 90, then nothing?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on December 05, 2019, 08:53:13 PM

Answers to your questions

1. You can generally find business class flights return to Europe for $5K AUD each (not with Qantas but with Cathay or Qatar or Thai etc), so $10K per trip.

I will have a budget for flights of $14K per year, so one trip to Europe (or another continent) per year and enough remaining ($2k each) for a few regional flights in economy class... or we can upgrade wth points,


2. 5.5% is historically successful about 50% of the time if you blindly draw down 5.5%. As we will only spend when markets permit and will spend less in years when markets don’t, we will be manage. Remember that long term stock market returns average 7-8% after inflation, so if you can take SORR off the table by not spending in the bad times, over the long term you should be able to approach spending an average 7% per year. Also, as a sanity test I run a simple 30 year annuity calculation with a 4% real return (ASX200 dividends yield around 4%) and it shows a draw down of 5.5%. So I think 5.5% is something we can reasonably expect if we are flexible.


3. I would like our stash to last 30 years, which would take me to 78. But I see no reason why we won’t still be more or less preserved beyond 30 years. I just don’t see me spending money if the market tanks. I imagine that if the market drops 30% and doesn’t recover in a couple of years (during which time we will just travel domestically) I will then reset my budget to 5.5% x 70% x $730k = 28K/ yr, which is still plenty. Honestly, We would be happy with $15k per year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 06, 2019, 03:11:10 AM

Well the good news is we move into our new lake home today which is suppose to be our "Final home" barring health or other reasons BUT that bad news is the house were currently living in has an issue with the title they have been working on for weeks. I am suppose to close in 5 days and all my cash is in this house. I called the title company myself yesterday as this is ridiculous to hold up a close over 6' between me and the neighbor that basically we just guess on where the property currently is and there is 100' between us and I am pretty sure the buyers could care less. I get this all needs to be legal but they said while there is a chance that we could close with a clause about the 6' needing to be figured out down the line most likely it will go to the city and courts which would take several months to figure out, I would lose my buyer and basically be screwed for awhile as I said most of my cash is in this house. But I will find out today and am holding my breath while I start moving anyhow. Maybe I will consider a 6 month rental or something I dont know. This just sucks. Venting! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, So basically when I bought the house the attorney of the seller didnt do what he was suppose to do and file or make the title right and this is the same title he used which is the second title company since first one couldnt get it done. So do I rent it , I probably could get 2-2500$ a month for short term rental or just ride it out but to heat the house, maintain etc.. plus expenses to make this right?! uggh....I hope I get a good call today but sure didnt sound like it was going to be so after talking with them yesterday.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: terran on December 06, 2019, 07:03:08 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 06, 2019, 03:11:10 AM

Well the good news is we move into our new lake home today which is suppose to be our "Final home" barring health or other reasons BUT that bad news is the house were currently living in has an issue with the title they have been working on for weeks. I am suppose to close in 5 days and all my cash is in this house. I called the title company myself yesterday as this is ridiculous to hold up a close over 6' between me and the neighbor that basically we just guess on where the property currently is and there is 100' between us and I am pretty sure the buyers could care less. I get this all needs to be legal but they said while there is a chance that we could close with a clause about the 6' needing to be figured out down the line most likely it will go to the city and courts which would take several months to figure out, I would lose my buyer and basically be screwed for awhile as I said most of my cash is in this house. But I will find out today and am holding my breath while I start moving anyhow. Maybe I will consider a 6 month rental or something I dont know. This just sucks. Venting! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, So basically when I bought the house the attorney of the seller didnt do what he was suppose to do and file or make the title right and this is the same title he used which is the second title company since first one couldnt get it done. So do I rent it , I probably could get 2-2500$ a month for short term rental or just ride it out but to heat the house, maintain etc.. plus expenses to make this right?! uggh....I hope I get a good call today but sure didnt sound like it was going to be so after talking with them yesterday.

:Ducks, hoping the multimillionaires don't mind me butting in to their thread.

Could you work something out with your neighbor where one or the other of your signs over that 6 feet to the other? Even if you had to pay for it that might be worth it to not lose the buyer. Seems strange that the the courts would have to be involved if both owners are on the same page. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 06, 2019, 09:16:33 AM

Quote from: terran on December 06, 2019, 07:03:08 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 06, 2019, 03:11:10 AM

Well the good news is we move into our new lake home today which is suppose to be our "Final home" barring health or other reasons BUT that bad news is the house were currently living in has an issue with the title they have been working on for weeks. I am suppose to close in 5 days and all my cash is in this house. I called the title company myself yesterday as this is ridiculous to hold up a close over 6' between me and the neighbor that basically we just guess on where the property currently is and there is 100' between us and I am pretty sure the buyers could care less. I get this all needs to be legal but they said while there is a chance that we could close with a clause about the 6' needing to be figured out down the line most likely it will go to the city and courts which would take several months to figure out, I would lose my buyer and basically be screwed for awhile as I said most of my cash is in this house. But I will find out today and am holding my breath while I start moving anyhow. Maybe I will consider a 6 month rental or something I dont know. This just sucks. Venting! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, So basically when I bought the house the attorney of the seller didnt do what he was suppose to do and file or make the title right and this is the same title he used which is the second title company since first one couldnt get it done. So do I rent it , I probably could get 2-2500$ a month for short term rental or just ride it out but to heat the house, maintain etc.. plus expenses to make this right?! uggh....I hope I get a good call today but sure didnt sound like it was going to be so after talking with them yesterday.

:Ducks, hoping the multimillionaires don't mind me butting in to their thread.

Could you work something out with your neighbor where one or the other of your signs over that 6 feet to the other? Even if you had to pay for it that might be worth it to not lose the buyer. Seems strange that the the courts would have to be involved if both owners are on the same page.

@terran , you're absolutely right.    Get the neighbor and the seller to settle it amongst themselves with a quick deed and proceed with a (slightly) delayed closing.

Worst case, do that and rent to the buyers and give them credit for the rent on the purchase price if they close within 60 days of the court settlement date.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 06, 2019, 03:14:29 PM

What do these title companies actually do if they don't even make sure the title is clear of problems.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 06, 2019, 03:15:44 PM

The six feet almost sounds like a legal SCAM for some of these companies to soak you for some money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 07, 2019, 08:06:58 AM

The county should have the survey on record for the plot.  Is the survey company still in business?   When we bought our first home we had structures with an infringement on the neighboring vacant lot.  We bought the lot and fixed the problem with $.  Turns out the lot was worth twice what we paid. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 07, 2019, 08:14:22 AM

@terran   Read a few of your posts.  You're one of the smart ones.  You'll be a multimillionaire soon.  Stick around.😁

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: terran on December 07, 2019, 08:50:30 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 07, 2019, 08:14:22 AM

@terran   Read a few of your posts.  You're one of the smart ones.  You'll be a multimillionaire soon.  Stick around.😁

Workin' on it, but not even in the $1M club just yet.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 07, 2019, 09:15:42 AM

Quote from: terran on December 07, 2019, 08:50:30 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 07, 2019, 08:14:22 AM

@terran   Read a few of your posts.  You're one of the smart ones.  You'll be a multimillionaire soon.  Stick around.😁

Workin' on it, but not even in the $1M club just yet.

The first million is the hardest. Keep on keeping on,  you'll get there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 07, 2019, 09:18:58 AM

Yeh - It's been kind of amazing these past few years.  Once that money starts working for you like compound interest, it's magic.  It grows and you don't even need to water it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2019, 04:35:51 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 06, 2019, 09:16:33 AM

Quote from: terran on December 06, 2019, 07:03:08 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 06, 2019, 03:11:10 AM

Well the good news is we move into our new lake home today which is suppose to be our "Final home" barring health or other reasons BUT that bad news is the house were currently living in has an issue with the title they have been working on for weeks. I am suppose to close in 5 days and all my cash is in this house. I called the title company myself yesterday as this is ridiculous to hold up a close over 6' between me and the neighbor that basically we just guess on where the property currently is and there is 100' between us and I am pretty sure the buyers could care less. I get this all needs to be legal but they said while there is a chance that we could close with a clause about the 6' needing to be figured out down the line most likely it will go to the city and courts which would take several months to figure out, I would lose my buyer and basically be screwed for awhile as I said most of my cash is in this house. But I will find out today and am holding my breath while I start moving anyhow. Maybe I will consider a 6 month rental or something I dont know. This just sucks. Venting! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, So basically when I bought the house the attorney of the seller didnt do what he was suppose to do and file or make the title right and this is the same title he used which is the second title company since first one couldnt get it done. So do I rent it , I probably could get 2-2500$ a month for short term rental or just ride it out but to heat the house, maintain etc.. plus expenses to make this right?! uggh....I hope I get a good call today but sure didnt sound like it was going to be so after talking with them yesterday.

:Ducks, hoping the multimillionaires don't mind me butting in to their thread.

Could you work something out with your neighbor where one or the other of your signs over that 6 feet to the other? Even if you had to pay for it that might be worth it to not lose the buyer. Seems strange that the the courts would have to be involved if both owners are on the same page.

@terran , you're absolutely right.    Get the neighbor and the seller to settle it amongst themselves with a quick deed and proceed with a (slightly) delayed closing.

Worst case, do that and rent to the buyers and give them credit for the rent on the purchase price if they close within 60 days of the court settlement date.

Well your both right. They came up with two conclusions just in case the neighbor wasnt willing and to be honest in 4 years I have never spoke a word to her so I didnt know how she would respond even though if she ever sold her house it was in her best interest as well. At first I got a call Friday morning they were just going to right an Insurance policy over the 6' basically guaranteeing that the issue would be resolved or something but then someone came up with what you mentioned. So the realtor went over and explained to the Lady and she signed but not with out me now having to cut down a big tree that is dying which I though was on her property. But she signed and at least now there is some optimism that were suppose to close.  Wednesday. My DW and I are so fried from this that at this point were just moving on and if we have to deal with this longer so be it. But in theory this should take care of everything.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 08, 2019, 10:03:31 AM

^^Glad to hear the wheels are turning, SLo'4!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on December 09, 2019, 08:11:17 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2019, 04:35:51 AM

...she signed but not with out me now having to cut down a big tree that is dying which I though was on her property. But she signed and at least now there is some optimism that were suppose to close.  Wednesday. My DW and I are so fried from this that at this point were just moving on and if we have to deal with this longer so be it. But in theory this should take care of everything.

Cutting down a big tree is a pretty small price... if you know how to cut down big trees.  Hope this resolve it and you can move on.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on December 09, 2019, 08:21:09 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 07, 2019, 09:15:42 AM

The first million is the hardest. Keep on keeping on,  you'll get there.

I've always heard that saying that the first million is the hardest.  It's so true.  Our first million took over 16 years after college.  The second million took 5-1/2.  Compound interest is amazing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on December 10, 2019, 07:31:37 AM

For me, the first million was the easiest.  Why?  I literally didn't keep track of any of our accounts.  I read one day an article where someone said that the first thing one should do when investing is to know what you own and what it cost.  I thought that made sense.  It took me a year of waiting for statements to come in the mail to know all the investments I had.  Even then, I had to call several of them and ask "What is this account?" because I didn't know if it were a Roth or tIRA or what.  When I finally got everything together on a spread sheet, I had $1.56M.  So that was easy.  :D

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on December 10, 2019, 09:19:06 AM

The market has been good for the past 10 years, so if you already had money in the market, you should see the millions keep growing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 10, 2019, 02:49:19 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on December 09, 2019, 08:11:17 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2019, 04:35:51 AM

...she signed but not with out me now having to cut down a big tree that is dying which I though was on her property. But she signed and at least now there is some optimism that were suppose to close.  Wednesday. My DW and I are so fried from this that at this point were just moving on and if we have to deal with this longer so be it. But in theory this should take care of everything.

Cutting down a big tree is a pretty small price... if you know how to cut down big trees.  Hope this resolve it and you can move on.

Got a quote for 500$ and realtor is paying half. Walk through today was fine and going to close tomorrow(though I pre-signed) so barring? I should have my check by 10am and hopefully that will be the end of this nightmare.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 11, 2019, 11:20:42 AM

Congratulations Soccerluvof4

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 12, 2019, 03:40:37 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on December 11, 2019, 11:20:42 AM

Congratulations Soccerluvof4

Thanks DAA. Got my check yesterday and took it straight to the bank and most of it is being transferred back to Vanguard. So glad that nightmare is over. I found out afterward they (realtors) had a bet going on whether or not it would close and or if neighbor would sign off on the Quick Title? I was kinda pissed when I heard that to say the least as they led me on the whole time. I've dont about 20 real-estate transactions in my life and I have to say on both ends of this one buying the new house and selling the old was one of the worst total experiences I have had to go deal with but at least that part is over now. Onward!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on December 12, 2019, 04:11:37 PM

I don't trust it to last, because my NW has been fluctuating a lot lately, but today's market has pushed me over and past my stretch goal for this year by more than $25k.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: GettingClose on December 12, 2019, 04:18:57 PM

Congratulations!

We're about $20k away from our year's goal.  We're expecting a check from the IRS for just about that amount, which will push us over the top. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: MiserlyMiser on December 12, 2019, 04:23:48 PM

Congratulations yourself!  I hope you get the check soon, so you can officially celebrate!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 12, 2019, 08:31:15 PM

Well the record highs of the stock market has pushed my liquid net worth to above $1.9 million for the first time.

The real estate gives me another $400K of net worth because my house is located in downtown where a developer can create a 5 story condo complex on my lot.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 13, 2019, 03:45:31 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on December 12, 2019, 08:31:15 PM

Well the record highs of the stock market has pushed my liquid net worth to above $1.9 million for the first time.

The real estate gives me another $400K of net worth because my house is located in downtown where a developer can create a 5 story condo complex on my lot.

I use to visit Ann Arbor all the time I had a store there in the mall in the late 90's and most recently was there as my Daughter Played MI a month or two back in a big soccer match. Always love that area and campus.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 13, 2019, 09:41:52 AM

Yes it's a nice college town. There's a local Mrmoneymustache chapter that meets once a month.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 13, 2019, 10:09:13 AM

Looks like net worth will be up around 500k for 2019 (not counting any gains in real estate).  I'm a bit surprised because I'm not invested very aggressively - around 60% equities / 15% bonds / 25% 'cash' (foreign bank account, high yield short term margin accounts...).  I guess contributions are still providing a significant boost since this was a good year for income...  I'll have to do a little forensics when the dust settles over the holidays to see if it was one of my individual stocks, income from my overseas assignment, my annual bonus, or the gains in equities that contributed the most to gains, but this should have been a good year for all Mustachians.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 13, 2019, 10:40:19 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 13, 2019, 10:09:13 AM

Looks like net worth will be up around 500k for 2019 (not counting any gains in real estate).  I'm a bit surprised because I'm not invested very aggressively - around 60% equities / 15% bonds / 25% 'cash' (foreign bank account, high yield short term margin accounts...).  I guess contributions are still providing a significant boost since this was a good year for income...  I'll have to do a little forensics when the dust settles over the holidays to see if it was one of my individual stocks, income from my overseas assignment, my annual bonus, or the gains in equities that contributed the most to gains, but this should have been a good year for all Mustachians.

Almost makes me want to work again..:)

Actually I am feeling the need for an assignment to sink my teeth into!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on December 13, 2019, 10:44:22 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 13, 2019, 10:40:19 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 13, 2019, 10:09:13 AM

Looks like net worth will be up around 500k for 2019 (not counting any gains in real estate).  I'm a bit surprised because I'm not invested very aggressively - around 60% equities / 15% bonds / 25% 'cash' (foreign bank account, high yield short term margin accounts...).  I guess contributions are still providing a significant boost since this was a good year for income...  I'll have to do a little forensics when the dust settles over the holidays to see if it was one of my individual stocks, income from my overseas assignment, my annual bonus, or the gains in equities that contributed the most to gains, but this should have been a good year for all Mustachians.

Almost makes me want to work again..:)

Actually I am feeling the need for an assignment to sink my teeth into!

Not me!  Work is a four letter word.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on December 13, 2019, 10:55:39 AM

I have more assignments than I can manage 😤

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 13, 2019, 11:24:33 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 13, 2019, 10:40:19 AM

Almost makes me want to work again..:)
Actually I am feeling the need for an assignment to sink my teeth into!

I can almost picture you showing up to work in your hospital gown, one arm still numb, asking the project team where to sit and what documents are behind schedule!  Hope you are back to 100% soon EFB

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 13, 2019, 11:40:32 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 13, 2019, 11:24:33 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 13, 2019, 10:40:19 AM

Almost makes me want to work again..:)
Actually I am feeling the need for an assignment to sink my teeth into!

I can almost picture you showing up to work in your hospital gown, one arm still numb, asking the project team where to sit and what documents are behind schedule!  Hope you are back to 100% soon EFB

Hah.. you forgot the slightly stoned facial expression from the prescription narcotics..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on December 13, 2019, 02:15:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 13, 2019, 11:40:32 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 13, 2019, 11:24:33 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 13, 2019, 10:40:19 AM

Almost makes me want to work again..:)
Actually I am feeling the need for an assignment to sink my teeth into!

I can almost picture you showing up to work in your hospital gown, one arm still numb, asking the project team where to sit and what documents are behind schedule!  Hope you are back to 100% soon EFB

Hah.. you forgot the slightly stoned facial expression from the prescription narcotics..:)

huge advantage in a corporate setting

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 13, 2019, 03:38:09 PM

Quote from: UnleashHell on December 13, 2019, 02:15:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 13, 2019, 11:40:32 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 13, 2019, 11:24:33 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 13, 2019, 10:40:19 AM

Almost makes me want to work again..:)
Actually I am feeling the need for an assignment to sink my teeth into!

I can almost picture you showing up to work in your hospital gown, one arm still numb, asking the project team where to sit and what documents are behind schedule!  Hope you are back to 100% soon EFB

Hah.. you forgot the slightly stoned facial expression from the prescription narcotics..:)

huge advantage in a corporate setting

You’d probably be promoted for paying such close attention and thinking so deeply

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 14, 2019, 02:59:24 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 13, 2019, 03:38:09 PM

Quote from: UnleashHell on December 13, 2019, 02:15:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 13, 2019, 11:40:32 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 13, 2019, 11:24:33 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 13, 2019, 10:40:19 AM

Almost makes me want to work again..:)
Actually I am feeling the need for an assignment to sink my teeth into!

I can almost picture you showing up to work in your hospital gown, one arm still numb, asking the project team where to sit and what documents are behind schedule!  Hope you are back to 100% soon EFB

Hah.. you forgot the slightly stoned facial expression from the prescription narcotics..:)

huge advantage in a corporate setting

You’d probably be promoted for paying such close attention and thinking so deeply

You guys are funny. Careful what you wish for, Frank.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 14, 2019, 09:54:41 AM

OK - The year is rolling to an end.  My stash is high enough for me to survive for many years,..........

I'm looking to hang it up,..........

but,...........

The so-called experts are giving gloom and doom that countries are swimming in a debt swamp and the gators are hungry &
Large corporations are floating in the same swamp like raw meat to feed the gators &
Most of the people of the US are swimming in this swamp oblivious to the foul smell of their debt.

These experts are saying the gators will eat soon and the stock market will come tumbling down.

Is it really more primed to tumble than at any other time?  Isn't it in the best interests of the folks who run things - CEOs, government, the Illuminati, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Banksters, the Cosa Nostra, the CIA, the guys who shot JFK, and the Military Industrial Complex to keep the stock market rolling ahead?

All answers are appreciated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on December 14, 2019, 10:02:39 AM

Money doesn't grow on trees, they must come from somewhere. I am just amazed the debt that the U.S. government can have to boost the spending. Any others doing that would be accused of running a Ponzi scheme.
Wait, many people actually like Ponzi schemes, they get in it knowing perfectly what it is, just hoping to get out faster than others.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 14, 2019, 10:25:49 AM

@pecunia This has been a similar refrain since 2011...  Just take a long quiet walk and think about what YOU think.  Do you want to move boldly in a new direction or are you happiest for now with the status quo?  Either way you have it pretty good and, just to be honest, many in the world would be quite happy in your shoes going either way.  Maybe moving in that new direction would help you to appreciate that fully?  I guarantee any 2M plus 4% folks will be fine as long as we are truly frugal during a downturn.  The only part that might frustrate me would be missing out on more accumulation, but technically we’ve already won that game...  Don’t let your inner bag lady call all the shots, we don’t need to move from the 1% to the 0.1% in order to have abundance in ER.  But, on the flip side, try to define what gets you excited about ER, what do you want more of once you have the extra time and energy?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on December 14, 2019, 10:40:39 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 14, 2019, 10:25:49 AM

@pecunia This has been a similar refrain since 2011...

Agreed. Doomsayers are a dime a dozen. Economies are complex and governments are stupid; best thing you can do is own assets that have value independent of what anyone says about them (income producing properties, companies that make money, etc.). You are in a better position than most of America and will be fine whatever direction you choose which is an amazing place to be--you get to choose what you want because you already have what you need!

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 14, 2019, 10:25:49 AM

@pecunia we don’t need to move from the 1% to the 0.1% in order to have abundance in ER.

A networth between 2 - 3M, at least in the USA, is no where near the 1%. For that distinction you would need about 10M (if you aren't counting home equity). You can calculate your particular percentile here: https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-states/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 14, 2019, 01:34:32 PM

That link was from 2017, but I doubt whether it changed much.  Top five percent.  Wow!

It is truly hard to get my head around this.  I'll have to think on it over the holiday break.  Maybe OMP (One More Project)).  It would be nice to call it quits in Spring.  It just fits.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 14, 2019, 02:04:27 PM

Also, not to be a Debbie Downer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfE93xON8jk), but since we're on the MMM forum, it's probably worth pointing out that all of us spending our way through our good fortune would significantly degrade the planet...   We should have plenty left over for ourselves, even after a recession, to enjoy a high quality of life without ruining our legacy for future generations.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ixtap on December 14, 2019, 02:34:27 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 14, 2019, 09:54:41 AM

OK - The year is rolling to an end.  My stash is high enough for me to survive for many years,..........

I'm looking to hang it up,..........

but,...........

The so-called experts are giving gloom and doom that countries are swimming in a debt swamp and the gators are hungry &
Large corporations are floating in the same swamp like raw meat to feed the gators &
Most of the people of the US are swimming in this swamp oblivious to the foul smell of their debt.

These experts are saying the gators will eat soon and the stock market will come tumbling down.

Is it really more primed to tumble than at any other time?  Isn't it in the best interests of the folks who run things - CEOs, government, the Illuminati, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Banksters, the Cosa Nostra, the CIA, the guys who shot JFK, and the Military Industrial Complex to keep the stock market rolling ahead?

All answers are appreciated.

If everything comes crashing down, how is having worked more years and accumulated more stocks going to help you?

This doomsday scenario seems like a great reason to go out and.do something new with your life before we all go back to be sustenance farmers or hunter gatherers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: StackOfCoins.com (Jay) on December 14, 2019, 03:26:43 PM

Time flies!! Here's my update:

August 2015: $1.0
April 2018: $2.0
July 2019: $2.8
December 2019: $3.6

What will the markets bring us in 2020?

Thankful this holiday season.  Keep on keeping on!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 14, 2019, 04:44:47 PM

Quote from: ixtap on December 14, 2019, 02:34:27 PM

If everything comes crashing down, how is having worked more years and accumulated more stocks going to help you?

This doomsday scenario seems like a great reason to go out and.do something new with your life before we all go back to be sustenance farmers or hunter gatherers.

I don't think it will go that far back.  However, working a little longer may achieve the following:

(1) If the crash comes while I am working, I may have the option to keep working to help weather the storm.  Most recessions last about 18 months
(2)  Working a bit longer helps to accumulate a larger cash reserve which will also help weather the storm.
(3) My health insurance is paid and the longer I work, the less I will have to pay to the blood sucking insurance companies.
(4) This is the most influential reason.  The money I make while working allows me to purchase unnecessary stuff for myself and others while leaving the stash intact.  For example:  It may be mustachian to continue to drive my high mpg beater, but replacement vehicles adorned with gadgets galore beckon me like a moth to a flame.  This does somewhat defeat #2, but it will certainly allow more short term fun.

Now as far as the planet is concerned, I must concede to the wisdom of the late great George Carlin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 14, 2019, 05:15:25 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 14, 2019, 04:44:47 PM

Quote from: ixtap on December 14, 2019, 02:34:27 PM

If everything comes crashing down, how is having worked more years and accumulated more stocks going to help you?

This doomsday scenario seems like a great reason to go out and.do something new with your life before we all go back to be sustenance farmers or hunter gatherers.

I don't think it will go that far back.  However, working a little longer may achieve the following:

(1) If the crash comes while I am working, I may have the option to keep working to help weather the storm.  Most recessions last about 18 months
(2)  Working a bit longer helps to accumulate a larger cash reserve which will also help weather the storm.
(3) My health insurance is paid and the longer I work, the less I will have to pay to the blood sucking insurance companies.
(4) This is the most influential reason.  The money I make while working allows me to purchase unnecessary stuff for myself and others while leaving the stash intact.  For example:  It may be mustachian to continue to drive my high mpg beater, but replacement vehicles adorned with gadgets galore beckon me like a moth to a flame.  This does somewhat defeat #2, but it will certainly allow more short term fun.

Now as far as the planet is concerned, I must concede to the wisdom of the late great George Carlin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c)

I could have written this all myself, Percunia.  I have the same struggle ongoing.   I've been waiting to outlast the recession for years that hasn't come.  Health insurance is a huge worry, since the company pays most of it right now.  I am buying stuff, stuff I've deferred for years while saving.   I have a beater car and truck that I'd like to replace with a fairly new vehicle.  New truck or luxury full size SUV.  Yep, I said luxury.  Yes, more stuff is a greater impact on the planet, hopefully my bicycle gets lots more use soon.  I'm definitely working all of 2020 and will pull the plug only after exhausting 7 weeks of paid time for 2021.  So that's almost March 2021.  Likely I'll work some in-between.  With my schedule, I can take 24 hours vacation every other week and be off the entire week.  That would give me every other week off till sometime in May 2021.  Time will tell.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 14, 2019, 05:27:02 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 14, 2019, 04:44:47 PM

Now as far as the planet is concerned, I must concede to the wisdom of the late great George Carlin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c)

Unfortunately that did not make me feel much better about all the crap I can buy.  George Carlin in summary, "the planet will be just fine once it gets rid of us."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 14, 2019, 06:01:36 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 14, 2019, 05:27:02 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 14, 2019, 04:44:47 PM

Now as far as the planet is concerned, I must concede to the wisdom of the late great George Carlin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c)

Unfortunately that did not make me feel much better about all the crap I can buy.  George Carlin in summary, "the planet will be just fine once it gets rid of us."

We're nothing but a bad cold for the planet.  It will cough and sneeze a short time, then dispell the irritation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on December 15, 2019, 02:55:24 AM

Quote from: pecunia on December 14, 2019, 01:34:32 PM

That link was from 2017, but I doubt whether it changed much.  Top five percent.  Wow

My reaction is a little different...., I feel super wealthy. So wealthy I feel I don’t need to work. And yet 1 in 20 people has more than me... I find it amazing that there are so many rich people.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 15, 2019, 10:07:36 AM

While 1 in 20 might be richer than you they might not have easy access to those assets.
How many of these people are rich because they own non-liquid assets, that are not real estate?
 For example, the wealth represented might include owning a business, artwork, or intellectual property.  It's not that easy to dispose of these assets, and they might not be valued as expected.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on December 15, 2019, 10:17:57 AM

Wealth really takes off in those last few percent too...

Excluding home equity about 25% have negative Net Worth...

At the other end of the scale...
95th percentile =$2.0M ex-home
96th percentile = $2.4M
97th percentile = $3.0M
98th percentile = $5.0M
99th percentile = $9.2M

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on December 15, 2019, 10:40:46 AM

And the wealth is concentrated in just a few locations around the country.  If I go back home where there are a few hundred homes and compare our (Me & GF) net worth ($2.2 Mil + house + 2 good pensions) to everyone in town I'm sure we are in the top 1%, if not the top number.  Then I look locally (DC area) and we are lucky if we make the top 10%.   Its all relative.

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 15, 2019, 10:17:57 AM

Wealth really takes off in those last few percent too...

Excluding home equity about 25% have negative Net Worth...

At the other end of the scale...
95th percentile =$2.0M ex-home
96th percentile = $2.4M
97th percentile = $3.0M
98th percentile = $5.0M
99th percentile = $9.2M

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 15, 2019, 12:05:46 PM

Quote from: bluerunner on December 14, 2019, 03:26:43 PM

Time flies!! Here's my update:

August 2015: $1.0
April 2018: $2.0
July 2019: $2.8
December 2019: $3.6

What will the markets bring us in 2020?

Thankful this holiday season.  Keep on keeping on!!

Impressive - looks like there's a firehose of money coming into your accounts (in addition to the great appreciation).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on December 15, 2019, 12:37:19 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 14, 2019, 04:44:47 PM

I don't think it will go that far back.  However, working a little longer may achieve the following:

(1) If the crash comes while I am working, I may have the option to keep working to help weather the storm.  Most recessions last about 18 months
(2)  Working a bit longer helps to accumulate a larger cash reserve which will also help weather the storm.
(3) My health insurance is paid and the longer I work, the less I will have to pay to the blood sucking insurance companies.
(4) This is the most influential reason.  The money I make while working allows me to purchase unnecessary stuff for myself and others while leaving the stash intact.  For example:  It may be mustachian to continue to drive my high mpg beater, but replacement vehicles adorned with gadgets galore beckon me like a moth to a flame.  This does somewhat defeat #2, but it will certainly allow more short term fun.
 

Every item listed here is a good reason for One More Year. If your job is not killing you, why not. I don't want to buy fancy things, but I do spend money on very expensive activities.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 15, 2019, 12:59:59 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 15, 2019, 02:55:24 AM

Quote from: pecunia on December 14, 2019, 01:34:32 PM

That link was from 2017, but I doubt whether it changed much.  Top five percent.  Wow

My reaction is a little different...., I feel super wealthy. So wealthy I feel I don’t need to work. And yet 1 in 20 people has more than me... I find it amazing that there are so many rich people.

So being that we're in the top 5 percent of household wealth.  Where in your high school graduating class did you rank?  I think I was top third at best.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 15, 2019, 01:07:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 15, 2019, 12:59:59 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 15, 2019, 02:55:24 AM

Quote from: pecunia on December 14, 2019, 01:34:32 PM

That link was from 2017, but I doubt whether it changed much.  Top five percent.  Wow

My reaction is a little different...., I feel super wealthy. So wealthy I feel I don’t need to work. And yet 1 in 20 people has more than me... I find it amazing that there are so many rich people.

So being that we're in the top 5 percent of household wealth.  Where in your high school graduating class did you rank?  I think I was top third at best.

In the top 20 students, that's the best I remember.  "Most Industrious", which puzzled me at the time.   I have zero idea why they tagged me with that at the time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 15, 2019, 01:43:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 15, 2019, 01:07:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 15, 2019, 12:59:59 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 15, 2019, 02:55:24 AM

Quote from: pecunia on December 14, 2019, 01:34:32 PM

That link was from 2017, but I doubt whether it changed much.  Top five percent.  Wow

My reaction is a little different...., I feel super wealthy. So wealthy I feel I don’t need to work. And yet 1 in 20 people has more than me... I find it amazing that there are so many rich people.

So being that we're in the top 5 percent of household wealth.  Where in your high school graduating class did you rank?  I think I was top third at best.

In the top 20 students, that's the best I remember.  "Most Industrious", which puzzled me at the time.   I have zero idea why they tagged me with that at the time.

Top 20 is pretty good if the class was sizable.   Some of you are pretty sharp, and I'm betting you did pretty good in school.  I'm just wondering how that transfers to wealth building.  Personally, I just followed the advice of smart people.   I come from a tiny town where financial knowledge was a great unknown.  Even in college, I didn't take any financial classes. A Charles Schwab representative put on a one hour class in 1993 at my employer when they were starting up a 401K plan.  I'd been working less than a year at the time.  I approached the representative to apply.  My heart was broken, you couldn't start till after one year of service.   But, I took advantage as soon as possible.  The contribution limits were paltry back then and our match was only 3 percent from the employer.  Still it added up.   MMM has been a great education for me, thank you all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on December 15, 2019, 02:06:12 PM

I calculated once out of curiosity and I was top 10.5% of our high school class. My husband was in the top 10, not 10%, but top 10 individuals (he worked a lot harder than me). I eventually got my act together and went to the same universities as him for similar degrees.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 02:33:07 PM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on December 15, 2019, 10:40:46 AM

And the wealth is concentrated in just a few locations around the country.  If I go back home where there are a few hundred homes and compare our (Me & GF) net worth ($2.2 Mil + house + 2 good pensions) to everyone in town I'm sure we are in the top 1%, if not the top number.  Then I look locally (DC area) and we are lucky if we make the top 10%.   Its all relative.

That amount has never been in the top 1% except in the smallest of ponds

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on December 15, 2019, 04:11:00 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on December 15, 2019, 02:06:12 PM

I calculated once out of curiosity and I was top 10.5% of our high school class. My husband was in the top 10, not 10%, but top 10 individuals (he worked a lot harder than me). I eventually got my act together and went to the same universities as him for similar degrees.

Not completely sure because I didn't care at the time but I expect I was in the bottom 1/3 at best if not quite a bit lower.  Graduated 1/2 year late because I got sick in my senior year and failed some classes.  Dropped out of Community College and a few years later "graduated" from one of those two year for profit private tech schools.  No degree.  Worked hard and built a career.  Did okay, am solidly in this group.

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 04:26:50 PM

People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on December 15, 2019, 04:40:58 PM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 04:26:50 PM

People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

That is a prettt broad statement to make. Can you back it up? Maybe graduating top of your class isn’t enough to make it into the global 1% but I’m sure as heck it translates to higher lifetime income and wealth than being much lower down in a graduating class. Education and income/wealth are absolutely correlated, even if it isn’t a straight line.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 15, 2019, 04:43:36 PM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 04:26:50 PM

People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

From Investopedia:

"By 13, he was managing his own business as a paperboy. ... At 16, Buffett enrolled himself in Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania to study business. After two years of complaining that he knew more than his professors, he moved on to the University of Nebraska in Lincoln and finished his degree."

I'm willing to wager that Mr. Buffett was in the top of his high school class.     Gates had a 1590 out of 1600 on his SAT so I'm betting he was up there too.

Good try, but no cigar.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on December 15, 2019, 04:46:03 PM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 04:26:50 PM

People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

Umm. I graduated first in my class and I'm in the top 1% in wealth. No, I didn't inherit any money -- I worked hard, did well in school, got a high paying job, continued to work hard, and saved.

Not that it will change your opinion but for others who may be lurking here, according to research by the St. Louis Fed your claim that, "School is generally useless" is not true (source: https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2017/01/03/education-income-and-wealth/):

Education	Percentage of Families	Median Income (2013)	Median Wealth (2013)	Wealth-to-income ratio
No High School Diploma	12%	$22,320	$37,766	1.43
High School Diploma	50%	$41,190	$95,072	2.15
Two- or Four-year degree	25%	$76,293	$273,488	3.45
Advanced degree	13%	$116,265	$689,100	5.58

In general, getting good grades in school and studying a profession that historically pays well (ie, doctor, engineer, etc.) is the best thing a young person can do to set themselves up for future financial security.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 15, 2019, 05:15:07 PM

I graduated 2nd highest from my high school in the UK. My buddy graduated a couple of points higher than me. We were 2 out of 3 kids that made it to University that year.

This was back in the UK where we were still climbing out of the massive debt imposed by WW2. All higher education places were earned by merit.. Good job really because nobody could afford to pay for it!

I feel very fortunate to have made it from post WW2 London to a high tech career in the US..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 15, 2019, 05:21:59 PM

Hell, I was in a class of my own.  Didn't do so well at school, but after that first bank job, I decided to learn about investing.  When you are in the pen they encourage you to read.  I learned I wasn't so different from the Wall Street boys after all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on December 15, 2019, 05:26:19 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 15, 2019, 05:21:59 PM

Hell, I was in a class of my own.  Didn't do so well at school, but after that first bank job, I decided to learn about investing.  When you are in the pen they encourage you to read.  I learned I wasn't so different from the Wall Street boys after all.

Sounds like you have had an interesting life. Would love to hear more details! Also goes to show that there are many roads to El Dorado!

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 06:55:32 PM

Quote from: carstenjames on December 15, 2019, 04:46:03 PM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 04:26:50 PM

People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

Umm. I graduated first in my class and I'm in the top 1% in wealth. No, I didn't inherit any money -- I worked hard, did well in school, got a high paying job, continued to work hard, and saved.

Not that it will change your opinion but for others who may be lurking here, according to research by the St. Louis Fed your claim that, "School is generally useless" is not true

Also for those who are lurking, income isn’t the same as wealth FYI

Nobody who is truly wealthy cites accomplishments in school as a factor in becoming wealthy because they know it’s tiny (at best)

And if a person’s accomplishments in school were as significant as their financial or Life accomplishments that they need to be mentioned, it indirectly tells you something about their Life accomplishments

There’s a reason the successful don’t cite their school accomplishments; because whatever they are, they pale so badly in comparison to their Life accomplishments that it’s embarrassing to bring them up

Like mentioning being student council president in high school after you hit $100 million NW lol

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 06:59:33 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 15, 2019, 04:43:36 PM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 04:26:50 PM

People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

From Investopedia:

"By 13, he was managing his own business as a paperboy. ... At 16, Buffett enrolled himself in Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania to study business. After two years of complaining that he knew more than his professors, he moved on to the University of Nebraska in Lincoln and finished his degree."

I'm willing to wager that Mr. Buffett was in the top of his high school class.     Gates had a 1590 out of 1600 on his SAT so I'm betting he was up there too.

Good try, but no cigar.

And there’s a reason that both of those individuals have never ever cited their accomplishments in school as being a factor in their success

Good try, but no cigar

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 15, 2019, 08:04:45 PM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 06:59:33 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 15, 2019, 04:43:36 PM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 04:26:50 PM

People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

From Investopedia:

"By 13, he was managing his own business as a paperboy. ... At 16, Buffett enrolled himself in Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania to study business. After two years of complaining that he knew more than his professors, he moved on to the University of Nebraska in Lincoln and finished his degree."

I'm willing to wager that Mr. Buffett was in the top of his high school class.     Gates had a 1590 out of 1600 on his SAT so I'm betting he was up there too.

Good try, but no cigar.

And there’s a reason that both of those individuals have never ever cited their accomplishments in school as being a factor in their success

Good try, but no cigar

You've confused "talking about it" with "made a big difference in their life".

The education I got, in a wide variety of subjects, made a big difference in my life.   That knowledge and those skills made a huge difference in my ability to take advantage of the opportunities that presented themselves.    They made a huge difference in my ability to create new opportunities.

No, not that I was on the student council or was a jr civitans club president or on the chess club.   The solid math, science, english, history and shop skills that I learned and mastered in school made a massive difference.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 09:28:29 PM

If doing well at school is still a big deal in a person’s life, then that’s great for them!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 15, 2019, 11:28:07 PM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 09:28:29 PM

If doing well at school is still a big deal in a person’s life, then that’s great for them!

You aren't listening.    You've got a smug idea and it's interfering with learning something.

We're not talking about doing well at school "being a big deal" like we're proud of winning a touchdown or something.   We're not talking about being some boozy, paunchy and balding ex-football player still pining about our glory days in high school.

We're talking about what we learned in school making a real difference in our success.

I self-taught myself to design databases and program because times were hard, the town I moved to for love was in double-digit unemployment and didn't like strangers, I needed to make a living, I found an opportunity and I ran with it.

Professionally, I've written 1 book and published and/or presented about 80 professional technical articles or papers.
I was invited to speak at technical conferences in four countries and I've been published in 3 countries that I know of.

Generally, to present at major technical conferences, one has to submit an abstract that sells your presentation idea to the conference committee.   There were a number of conferences where they just contacted me and asked me what I wanted to talk about because they assumed if it was worth my time to present it, it was worth their time to learn it.

I've published two different technical publications, been the editor of another, and a contributing editor for two others. 

One US government agency designated me personally as a "unique, sole source provider" of the information that they needed, which meant they did not have put that particular contract out for competitive bidding.

A major international company invented a job for me because they wanted my unique professional skillsets.  I turned them down because my current employer gave me a better deal.   That included sending my wife, daughter and I to Europe for a month, most expenses paid, to write material for them simply because my wife needed to do research for her degree over there.

I wrote most of a report to a commission set up by the US congress on behalf of an entire branch of the US military, and I edited the other 40% of the report.

Oh, yeah, I made a bunch of money and after I learned about MMM, I invested enough to FIRE.

That's a fair bit of professional success.

Those English classes where they taught reading, writing, spelling, grammar and textual analysis?    I paid attention and I learned it!   Plus I did lots of extra reading on top of my assignments.    All that writing I did?   It was a whole lot easier because of it.

Those math classes where they taught arithmetic, trigonometry, and algebra?   I paid attention and learned it.   It was invaluable in my programming work and in business. Ditto with the economics courses.

Those history, sociology, anthropology classes?    I paid attention and learned it.   It gave me a wide range of experience and lots of real-life examples to use when thinking thru "what could happen?" when I was designing a software or business system.   It helped me communicate better with coworkers from other countries and cultures..   

Those political science courses?   I paid attention and learned it.   I got better database design training from Political Science classes than programmers got from computer science classes.    Socrates kicks butt! 

History and Political Science also got me interested in simulations.   Learning complex simulations meant reading complex game rule manuals and then turning those rules into strategies and tactics to win the simulation.    Software language manuals were a cake walk compared to some of the simulations I worked with.

Shop class made it a lot easier for me to renovate real estate property for profit and to keep repair costs on my own home lower than otherwise.

Because I took the time to learn lots of things well, I had a lot of different knowledge and skills I could draw upon to improvise, adapt and overcome whatever difficulties were in front of me.   I don't compartmentalize what I know, I try to use anything useful I've learned in everything I do.   

All those things made it possible for me to succeed and flourish professionally.   

Not because I made an "A" or got inducted into some silly club in high school or college, but because I learned lots of useful
information and I then made use of it.

Lots of people I went to school with never bothered to learn much in school and, after awhile, they lost the skills and willingness to learn.  They lacked the knowledge to recognize opportunities and lacked the habits to take advantage of them anyway.

That's how "what I learned in school" was a major driver of the success I have achieved.

I hope that clears things up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 16, 2019, 12:07:22 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 15, 2019, 11:28:07 PM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 09:28:29 PM

If doing well at school is still a big deal in a person’s life, then that’s great for them!

You aren't listening.    You've got a smug idea and it's interfering with learning something.

We're not talking about doing well at school "being a big deal" like we're proud of winning a touchdown or something.   We're not talking about being some boozy, paunchy and balding ex-football player still pining about our glory days in high school.

We're talking about what we learned in school making a real difference in our success.

I self-taught myself to design databases and program because times were hard, the town I moved to for love was in double-digit unemployment and didn't like strangers, I needed to make a living, I found an opportunity and I ran with it.

Professionally, I've written 1 book and published and/or presented about 80 professional technical articles or papers.
I was invited to speak at technical conferences in four countries and I've been published in 3 countries that I know of.

Generally, to present at major technical conferences, one has to submit an abstract that sells your presentation idea to the conference committee.   There were a number of conferences where they just contacted me and asked me what I wanted to talk about because they assumed if it was worth my time to present it, it was worth their time to learn it.

I've published two different technical publications, been the editor of another, and a contributing editor for two others. 

One US government agency designated me personally as a "unique, sole source provider" of the information that they needed, which meant they did not have put that particular contract out for competitive bidding.

A major international company invented a job for me because they wanted my unique professional skillsets.  I turned them down because my current employer gave me a better deal.   That included sending my wife, daughter and I to Europe for a month, most expenses paid, to write material for them simply because my wife needed to do research for her degree over there.

I wrote most of a report to a commission set up by the US congress on behalf of an entire branch of the US military, and I edited the other 40% of the report.

Oh, yeah, I made a bunch of money and after I learned about MMM, I invested enough to FIRE.

That's a fair bit of professional success.

Those English classes where they taught reading, writing, spelling, grammar and textual analysis?    I paid attention and I learned it!   Plus I did lots of extra reading on top of my assignments.    All that writing I did?   It was a whole lot easier because of it.

Those math classes where they taught arithmetic, trigonometry, and algebra?   I paid attention and learned it.   It was invaluable in my programming work and in business. Ditto with the economics courses.

Those history, sociology, anthropology classes?    I paid attention and learned it.   It gave me a wide range of experience and lots of real-life examples to use when thinking thru "what could happen?" when I was designing a software or business system.   It helped me communicate better with coworkers from other countries and cultures..   

Those political science courses?   I paid attention and learned it.   I got better database design training from Political Science classes than programmers got from computer science classes.    Socrates kicks butt! 

History and Political Science also got me interested in simulations.   Learning complex simulations meant reading complex game rule manuals and then turning those rules into strategies and tactics to win the simulation.    Software language manuals were a cake walk compared to some of the simulations I worked with.

Shop class made it a lot easier for me to renovate real estate property for profit and to keep repair costs on my own home lower than otherwise.

Because I took the time to learn lots of things well, I had a lot of different knowledge and skills I could draw upon to improvise, adapt and overcome whatever difficulties were in front of me.   I don't compartmentalize what I know, I try to use anything useful I've learned in everything I do.   

All those things made it possible for me to succeed and flourish professionally.   

Not because I made an "A" or got inducted into some silly club in high school or college, but because I learned lots of useful
information and I then made use of it.

Lots of people I went to school with never bothered to learn much in school and, after awhile, they lost the skills and willingness to learn.  They lacked the knowledge to recognize opportunities and lacked the habits to take advantage of them anyway.

That's how "what I learned in school" was a major driver of the success I have achieved.

I hope that clears things up.

Hell to the YES!   That is a kick ass flow of life and learning to who you are.  I'm not in your class, but layer upon layer of everything we've learned or done, reenforces the ability to make the right choices.  Maybe that's why we're here and so many of our former peers aren't.   We've won the game, at least as far as our bank accounts show.  But we've never stopped learning, we've never stopped building those powerful layers of knowledge and understanding.  Like I've mentioned previously, I'm not the sharpest tack in the box, certainly not one of the top 5 out of 100.  But, I've always sought the company of those sharp tacks.  Emulation of the successful can also make  you successful.

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 16, 2019, 06:27:08 AM

^ I agree. Lifelong learning is very important and a huge contributor to success! Unfortunately the people I’ve learned from never mentioned their class ranking in school

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 16, 2019, 06:51:36 AM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 16, 2019, 06:27:08 AM

^ I agree. Lifelong learning is very important and a huge contributor to success! Unfortunately the people I’ve learned from never mentioned their class ranking in school

The only time I've mentioned it in the last 44 years is when someone specifically asked for the information a few posts up thread.

That's' because it's not the "class ranking" that matters, it's what the person learned and how they used it that matters.

Plus, the USA has a very definite anti-intellectual bias in its culture, which sadly is in the ascendant.  Bragging about that isn't socially acceptable in most groups.  In contrast, bragging by driving a humongous gas-guzzling truck is socially acceptable.

And, frankly, in any group of people I get to talking to well enough to get a good idea about them and their capabilities, I pretty much know who was really good in school.   There's the occasional late bloomer who got the learning bug later in life, but otherwise, it's pretty obvious.   But there's no reason to know their class ranking because, and this is important, it's their level of knowledge and the ability to apply it that matters, not the number of their fellow students who also happened to take the time and effort to master the same material a tad better.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: alienbogey on December 16, 2019, 08:32:44 AM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 04:26:50 PM

People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

There have been good replies to this already but I can't help piling on.

The first statement is just ridiculously wrong.  Whenever someone makes a "Never" statement it only takes one example to refute it. 

I graduated number 2 and my wife graduated top 10 from the same high school of 1,500.  (And this is the first time in 20+ years I've mentioned that to anyone.)  We're in the top 1% of wealth.

So, do try not to say that again.

School is generally useless?  Come again?

Maybe for you, I suppose, and if so perhaps because circumstance placed you in a bad school situation, or maybe you were a slacker with a shitty attitude at the time, or something, but if you are truly a member of this group then you had some obstacles to overcome and I congratulate you for doing so.

Two personal anecdotes each from high school and college:

Learning and understanding high school mathematics taught my mind logical discipline.  There's a life skill.  Metal shop taught me how to use a tap and die, which I've used several times in the past month while working on my motorcycle.  That's satisfying.

Economics and finance classes in college taught me lessons that helped put me in the aforementioned 1%.  A Shakespeare class, taken on a whim, gave me a lifelong appreciation for the Bard and the motivation to see many of his plays in everything from humble local community theaters to world class venues.

And that's not even to mention the doors opened, friendships made, fun experiences, not-so-fun experiences, etc, in school.

School's generally useless? 

I'm really having to struggle to remain polite here.  The best I can do is to say that the statement is among the most ridiculous and just plain wrong that I've seen on MMM.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: monarda on December 16, 2019, 08:57:26 AM

Passionate educator here. Learned about this thread from the "hall of fame" post by SwordGuy above. (I'm still back around $1M)

As others have chimed in, many who do well in school do indeed well in life. These are the good students who actively participated. I'm going to take a stab at where this anti-intellectualism and anti-school attitude is coming from.

If you go through school with a passive attitude, doing just the minimum you think you need to, you *might* indeed get fairly good grades and standardized test scores. But the ones who take an active role like @SwordGuy are going to be at an advantage, regardless of their grades and rank.

An example- there are some naturally very intelligent people who breeze through without much work. They are going to be limited later in life. I have a couple of these in my family. They have a bad attitude throughout school. There's a feeling of entitlement. And these particular folks ended up stuck and depressed later in life.

Active learning is talked about a LOT these days in edu-speak circles. Most efforts there are lame, but making the process active is key. The anti-intellectualism comes in part from people who just don't want to do the homework, starting early on. "When am I going to USE this??" You don't have to like everything in school. Some of the best students aren't the "A" students.  It's sad to me that so many people make their way through school at all levels (grad programs included) with a passive attitude, just thinking about the money to be made once they hold the degree.  Do it for love. YOLO. 

On other threads here at MMM there are folks yearning for FIRE in high paying jobs they absolutely HATE. That boggles my mind. Why do something you hate? YOLO.

Now, modern curriculum design in school is a whole 'nother issue.

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 16, 2019, 09:10:47 AM

^ +1 great commentary. I enjoyed reading this. Thanks for this perspective

My decision to be FI never stemmed from the conventional MMM-hate-my-work mentality. I never understood doing something I hated (for decades) for money. There’s tons of money around, so I just did what I liked, and did it until I found something else that interested me

Once I realized that all I needed was rudimentary arithmetic and English to become financially free (I might be overestimating this), I didn’t care about all the rest. I knew I would be fine. I’ll leave it to those with more passion to tackle the other 99.99999% of topics

Whenever an educator tells my child how important school is for their financial future, I tell my child that their teacher is incorrect and that it’s not important for money (if they had money, many wouldn’t bother suffering as a teacher), but it’s important if they find it interesting. Otherwise, they can just ignore it

I make sure my child knows that everybody is smarter than me and did better in school than me

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 16, 2019, 09:57:32 AM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 16, 2019, 09:10:47 AM

My decision to be FI never stemmed from the conventional MMM-hate-my-work mentality. I never understood doing something I hated (for decades) for money. There’s tons of money around, so I just did what I liked, and did it until I found something else that interested me

Well, we're in agreement here.

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 16, 2019, 09:10:47 AM

Once I realized that all I needed was rudimentary arithmetic and English to become financially free (I might be overestimating this), I didn’t care about all the rest. I knew I would be fine. I’ll leave it to those with more passion to tackle the other 99.99999% of topics

You are correct that being well educated (or even educated at all) is not a requirement to make a lot of money or build wealth.  That is an absolutely correct statement.

I could also buy a lottery ticket and become a multi-millionaire.    The problem is that the odds of winning the lottery big time are incredibly low.      The odds of making lots of money without a solid education are also much lower than they are with an education.   Someone already posted the correlations between education and income earlier in this thread.   Apparently you did not make the logical connection.

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 16, 2019, 09:10:47 AM

Whenever an educator tells my child how important school is for their financial future, I tell my child that their teacher is incorrect and that it’s not important for money (if they had money, many wouldn’t bother suffering as a teacher), but it’s important if they find it interesting. Otherwise, they can just ignore it

Knowledge is power.  You never know when something that you learned in years past will become important.  That social history I learned in college?  What a waste of time, right?   Yeah, but I also learned about rent strikes as part of that history.   That came in really handy when we lived in an apartment building and the doctor who owned it wouldn't make repairs. (Sure helped our cash flow at the time!)   

Learning about strategies to use in political protests in political science came in handy when we wanted to pressure him to make those repairs, when the rent strike wasn't enough to do it.     My wife borrowed a polaroid camera and took photos of what the bathroom looked like   At the 11 1/2 month mark after the bathroom needed repair, she took those photos to the doctor's office.  She explained to the doctor that in 2 weeks it would be the 1 year anniversary of her bathroom looking like this.   If it wasn't fixed before then, she would be bringing a birthday cake and candles along with the polaroids to hold a birthday party for our bathroom in his lobby with his patients.      Let me tell you, stuff got fixed pronto 'cause we lived in a small town and THAT story would have gotten repeated to EVERYONE.

Since, as you said, you didn't bother to learn in school, so you simply don't know what you might have been able to do to improve your life's trajectory.

So, this would be yet another instance of your anti-education bias being wrong.

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 16, 2019, 09:10:47 AM

I make sure my child knows that everybody is smarter than me and did better in school than me

It's sad when someone gets the facts right and their conclusions are 180 degrees wrong.

You succeeded in spite of your self-imposed limitations.

It's utter foolishness to teach your child to impose limitations on their abilities.   Most children have no real idea what the real world will require of them and therefore what will be truly useful to them over the decades to come.   Those children who do are rarely the children of multi-millionaires.

Title: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 16, 2019, 10:30:30 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 16, 2019, 09:57:32 AM

Since, as you said, you didn't bother to learn in school, so you simply don't know what you might have been able to do to improve your life's trajectory.

So, this would be yet another instance of your anti-education bias being wrong.

And this is the arrogance that stems from people who believe that school accomplishments are important

The conclusion could be that a person succeeded despite the indoctrination of formal education

Since your opinion is only that school is important, you weren’t able to see this perspective 

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 16, 2019, 09:57:32 AM

It's sad when someone gets the facts right and their conclusions are 180 degrees wrong.

You succeeded in spite of your self-imposed limitations.

It’s sad to see someone who supposedly values education, yet unable to accept an opinion that you are the one who is wrong. I succeeded despite years of misinformation, indoctrination, and school-imposed limitations

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 16, 2019, 09:57:32 AM

It's utter foolishness to teach your child to impose limitations on their abilities.   Most children have no real idea what the real world will require of them and therefore what will be truly useful to them over the decades to come.   Those children who do are rarely the children of multi-millionaires.

Again, this is parroting the arrogance of the education system that not following the system will be limiting to a child

It is beyond your ability to accept the opinion that valuing the school system will be limiting to a child

My child learns more from my accountants, lawyers, property managers, fellow entrepreneurs and investors than they could possibly learn from any teacher that they have or will have

My 8 year old will be accompanying  me to a local meeting of real estate investors and accountants tonight and I guarantee that none of my child’s classmates will get any exposure in school of what we discuss

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on December 16, 2019, 10:36:31 AM

Spirited discussion.

We have certainly all had very different paths to our current success.

I spent my school years sitting in the corner of the back row of class, day dreaming and looking out the window. I cruised through school with minimal effort and minimal engagement. I got ok grades, but probably less than I might have been capable of if I had been pushed a little. I’ll never know.

I never did my homework or studied at night as I was always out with friends or playing sport.

Thankfully, nobody asks for my grades except on this forum. Haha.

But, the competitiveness learned playing sport has been useful in working life, as have the social skills from always having a wide circle of friends. And all that day dreaming, has evolved into an employee with lots of creative solutions to tough problems. Also a valuable learned skill. Maybe it was for the best that I was allowed to daydream my way through school and not learn discipline. I a, not wired that way.

I do feel pretty chuffed that Even though I came from a household with a below average wealth and income and no signs during school that I would build a good career, somehow through some good fortune, a willingness to take risk, and a determination to win, I am now in the top 3-4% of wealth and If I chose to keep working could be in the top 1% well before traditional retirement age.....

..... But after much deliberation and looking out the window I have decided that there is no good reason for me to push myself to save my way to the top 1%..... I will go back to coasting through life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 16, 2019, 01:53:57 PM

Another record high for the Dow Jones.

https://www.ccn.com/5-reasons-why-the-dow-jones-catapulted-to-a-record-high-today/ (https://www.ccn.com/5-reasons-why-the-dow-jones-catapulted-to-a-record-high-today/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: jeroly on December 16, 2019, 02:19:14 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 15, 2019, 11:28:07 PM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 15, 2019, 09:28:29 PM

If doing well at school is still a big deal in a person’s life, then that’s great for them!

You aren't listening.    You've got a smug idea and it's interfering with learning something.

We're not talking about doing well at school "being a big deal" like we're proud of winning a touchdown or something.   We're not talking about being some boozy, paunchy and balding ex-football player still pining about our glory days in high school.

We're talking about what we learned in school making a real difference in our success.

I self-taught myself to design databases and program because times were hard, the town I moved to for love was in double-digit unemployment and didn't like strangers, I needed to make a living, I found an opportunity and I ran with it.

Professionally, I've written 1 book and published and/or presented about 80 professional technical articles or papers.
I was invited to speak at technical conferences in four countries and I've been published in 3 countries that I know of.

Generally, to present at major technical conferences, one has to submit an abstract that sells your presentation idea to the conference committee.   There were a number of conferences where they just contacted me and asked me what I wanted to talk about because they assumed if it was worth my time to present it, it was worth their time to learn it.

I've published two different technical publications, been the editor of another, and a contributing editor for two others. 

One US government agency designated me personally as a "unique, sole source provider" of the information that they needed, which meant they did not have put that particular contract out for competitive bidding.

A major international company invented a job for me because they wanted my unique professional skillsets.  I turned them down because my current employer gave me a better deal.   That included sending my wife, daughter and I to Europe for a month, most expenses paid, to write material for them simply because my wife needed to do research for her degree over there.

I wrote most of a report to a commission set up by the US congress on behalf of an entire branch of the US military, and I edited the other 40% of the report.

Oh, yeah, I made a bunch of money and after I learned about MMM, I invested enough to FIRE.

That's a fair bit of professional success.

Those English classes where they taught reading, writing, spelling, grammar and textual analysis?    I paid attention and I learned it!   Plus I did lots of extra reading on top of my assignments.    All that writing I did?   It was a whole lot easier because of it.

Those math classes where they taught arithmetic, trigonometry, and algebra?   I paid attention and learned it.   It was invaluable in my programming work and in business. Ditto with the economics courses.

Those history, sociology, anthropology classes?    I paid attention and learned it.   It gave me a wide range of experience and lots of real-life examples to use when thinking thru "what could happen?" when I was designing a software or business system.   It helped me communicate better with coworkers from other countries and cultures..   

Those political science courses?   I paid attention and learned it.   I got better database design training from Political Science classes than programmers got from computer science classes.    Socrates kicks butt! 

History and Political Science also got me interested in simulations.   Learning complex simulations meant reading complex game rule manuals and then turning those rules into strategies and tactics to win the simulation.    Software language manuals were a cake walk compared to some of the simulations I worked with.

Shop class made it a lot easier for me to renovate real estate property for profit and to keep repair costs on my own home lower than otherwise.

Because I took the time to learn lots of things well, I had a lot of different knowledge and skills I could draw upon to improvise, adapt and overcome whatever difficulties were in front of me.   I don't compartmentalize what I know, I try to use anything useful I've learned in everything I do.   

All those things made it possible for me to succeed and flourish professionally.   

Not because I made an "A" or got inducted into some silly club in high school or college, but because I learned lots of useful
information and I then made use of it.

Lots of people I went to school with never bothered to learn much in school and, after awhile, they lost the skills and willingness to learn.  They lacked the knowledge to recognize opportunities and lacked the habits to take advantage of them anyway.

That's how "what I learned in school" was a major driver of the success I have achieved.

I hope that clears things up.

+1 to all of this, and it's worth adding that for many people, academic success opens the door to more job opportunities paying higher wages.  It's not necessary to have a higher income to eventually become part of the wealthiest 1%, but it certainly helps make the path a lot easier.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on December 16, 2019, 02:32:12 PM

https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-states/

Who are the top one percent in America by net worth?
Net worth of over $10,374,030.10 would put a household in the top 1%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 16, 2019, 02:38:52 PM

I certainly am sympathetic to NancyFrank's description of having, "succeeded despite years of misinformation, indoctrination, and school-imposed limitations"
Not everyone's experience with school was rosy and involved obstacle free opportunities for learning along with mentoring from teachers.

I did well in school but I had some negative experiences with some of my classmates and even one or two of the teachers. I think prejudice and classism was involved in some of these interactions.

As an aside, going to school offers the opportunity to learn soft skills, emotional skills on how to interact with others, assuming that the teachers and peers provide this chance.

Not that long ago I got a Master's in accounting at a local medium size college, and one of the professors used to roast the students in his classroom. It was really a repulsive display of raw power by the professor over the students.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 16, 2019, 03:02:10 PM

Quote from: AdrianC on December 16, 2019, 02:32:12 PM

https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-states/

Who are the top one percent in America by net worth?
Net worth of over $10,374,030.10 would put a household in the top 1%.

There's also a percentile net worth by age calculator
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-by-age-calculator-united-states/

And a percentile income by state calculator
https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-by-state-calculator/

I can still be in the 1%, for the time being....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 16, 2019, 09:26:16 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 16, 2019, 03:02:10 PM

Quote from: AdrianC on December 16, 2019, 02:32:12 PM

https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-states/

Who are the top one percent in America by net worth?
Net worth of over $10,374,030.10 would put a household in the top 1%.

There's also a percentile net worth by age calculator
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-by-age-calculator-united-states/

And a percentile income by state calculator
https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-by-state-calculator/

I can still be in the 1%, for the time being....

Strangely every one I checked came back nearly the same.  93 to 95 percentile.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 16, 2019, 11:29:41 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 16, 2019, 09:26:16 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 16, 2019, 03:02:10 PM

Quote from: AdrianC on December 16, 2019, 02:32:12 PM

https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-states/

Who are the top one percent in America by net worth?
Net worth of over $10,374,030.10 would put a household in the top 1%.

There's also a percentile net worth by age calculator
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-by-age-calculator-united-states/

And a percentile income by state calculator
https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-by-state-calculator/

I can still be in the 1%, for the time being....

Strangely every one I checked came back nearly the same.  93 to 95 percentile.

Well, there aren't any perfect calculators out there, but I'd bet if you put in the right combination of your income or net worth vs (age + location) - you'd probably move from 95th percentile upwards a bit.

I'm probably not 1% in 2019 since the slope gets awfully steep from 95 percent onward and I'd imagine 2016 and 2017 numbers aren't good enough given the favorable economy, but I'm still amazed that I am living in this rarefied air and was scarcely aware of it.  MMM is also probably close to a 1%-er if his income was 400k two years ago...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on December 17, 2019, 01:49:13 AM

I suppose 1% is not really all that special as it includes more than 3million people in the US. Not exactly an exclusive club.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 17, 2019, 06:04:06 AM

Hit $4M Net Worth with market rise yesterday ($3M LNW I'll base a flexible 4%SWR off of + paid off home, 529s for 3 kids about to start being used, and a DAF).  This is likely the last big number I'll cross while working as I was planning on Summer 2020 RE, so going forward will pretty much be determined by market performance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 17, 2019, 06:35:29 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 17, 2019, 01:49:13 AM

I suppose 1% is not really all that special as it includes more than 3million people in the US. Not exactly an exclusive club.

+1

Completely agree

There’s no shortage of money out there. There’s tons of it actually

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on December 17, 2019, 07:15:52 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 16, 2019, 03:02:10 PM

Quote from: AdrianC on December 16, 2019, 02:32:12 PM

https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-states/

Who are the top one percent in America by net worth?
Net worth of over $10,374,030.10 would put a household in the top 1%.

There's also a percentile net worth by age calculator
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-by-age-calculator-united-states/

And a percentile income by state calculator
https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-by-state-calculator/

I can still be in the 1%, for the time being....

Yeah, by age the net worth required to be a 1%er is going to be lower. There's a big step up in the mid-forties. Are most of the tech billionaires older than 44? Probably.

Here is the top one percent net worth in America by age, with and without a primary residence:
40-44  $2,864,334.14  $2,593,198.67
45-49  $9,666,729.57  $6,650,285.48
50-54  $14,746,583.81  $13,761,137.50
55-59 $14,590,118.46 $14,026,472.57


I'm certainly not 1%...not complaining, though!

(The "by state" link was income percentile. Not relevant for those of us FIRE'd already.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 17, 2019, 07:23:00 AM

Quote from: nancyfrank232 on December 17, 2019, 06:35:29 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 17, 2019, 01:49:13 AM

I suppose 1% is not really all that special as it includes more than 3million people in the US. Not exactly an exclusive club.

+1

Completely agree

There’s no shortage of money out there. There’s tons of it actually

If I weren't so lazy, I'd make a few extra grand a year selling covered calls on the stock I'm sitting on.  But that's just it, I have more than enough so I'm not motivated by doing even this tiny bit of extra 'work'.  There's also real estate investing, all those bank account and credit card offers, selling tradeline hustles, etc.  It feels a bit unfair just how easy it is to make money once you have good credit and plenty of assets...  That's probably why I like my current line of work, I enjoy putting my mind to work and creating new things, not just scooping up passive income (although I still do plenty of that too with bonds and equities).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Car Jack on December 18, 2019, 06:49:07 AM

In light of the new thread "Train from $4M to $8M" https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/train-from-$4m-to-$8m/   I've changed the title here to contain us to "just" $2M to $4M. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on December 18, 2019, 07:17:41 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 17, 2019, 07:23:00 AM

If I weren't so lazy, I'd make a few extra grand a year selling covered calls on the stock I'm sitting on.  But that's just it, I have more than enough so I'm not motivated by doing even this tiny bit of extra 'work'.

That's not without risk, and why risk what you have and need to try to get what you don't have and don't need (paraphrasing Buffett)?

I feel this way about any kind of leverage or option strategy. Why bother? We're doing great without it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2019, 07:41:46 AM

Quote from: AdrianC on December 18, 2019, 07:17:41 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 17, 2019, 07:23:00 AM

If I weren't so lazy, I'd make a few extra grand a year selling covered calls on the stock I'm sitting on.  But that's just it, I have more than enough so I'm not motivated by doing even this tiny bit of extra 'work'.

That's not without risk, and why risk what you have and need to try to get what you don't have and don't need (paraphrasing Buffett)?

I feel this way about any kind of leverage or option strategy. Why bother? We're doing great without it.

I'll definitely do more with covered calls, spreads, and low-risk / limited-loss option strategies when I'm ER just because I like following the market and individual stocks.  Might as well have some time -value payoff.  I'm also interested in hard money lending, seems like a low risk way to play real estate.  Actual flipping and land-lording sounds like real work and does not excite me, although there is good money in it.  Maintaining my own home (and maybe a vacation home or RV) is enough physical real estate for me.

But yeah, while I'm working I don't need to take on even a smidgen of risk or extra work (more tax forms, ugh) for having more than I need.  There is also value in keeping life relatively simple.

Also, I'm staying on this thread, not moving to that other one.  This thread will always be '2-3M and beyond' to me :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: trashtalk on December 18, 2019, 09:24:50 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 18, 2019, 06:49:07 AM

In light of the new thread "Train from $4M to $8M" https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/train-from-$4m-to-$8m/   I've changed the title here to contain us to "just" $2M to $4M.

Well that's awesome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: itchyfeet on December 18, 2019, 09:32:53 AM

Quote from: trashtalk on December 18, 2019, 09:24:50 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 18, 2019, 06:49:07 AM

In light of the new thread "Train from $4M to $8M" https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/train-from-$4m-to-$8m/   I've changed the title here to contain us to "just" $2M to $4M.

Well that's awesome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Haha.... I know I shouldn’t encourage you, but it’s pretty funny on MMM that members want an $8M thread...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Dicey on December 18, 2019, 09:47:04 AM

I liked the old title because it always made me think of Toy Story...To infinity and beyond!

I like it here and do not aspire to having boatloads more than I could ever spend, even for charity. Should we happen to get past that number, it will be due to inheritance or investment gains, neither of which I can take much pride in "achieving".

I also think it might mean a person (or couple) is working far too long, which I consider fairly anti-mustachian. It even feels like -dare I say - a losing proposition. Hard pass for me.

I'm fine with folks who want to amass lots of money and maybe never retire, but this hardly seems the place to vaunt that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: itchyfeet on December 18, 2019, 10:03:44 AM

I can certainly easily imagine am $8 million lifestyle. I have been doing my best to convince myself I don’t want to work to have it.

I could easily spend $5million on a beachfront home if I had that kind of money, but know a house 1 street back for 20% of the cost will have the same practical benefits.

I could blow a tonne on cars... but DW wouldn’t let me even if we had $8m.

Don’t start me on airplanes (again)... travel not owning... hmmm 🤔

Beyond that, with our “measly” minor millions we will get by fine 😬

But congrats and best wishes to the lucky and/or diligent few.

Here’s to “a bit better off than most” and beyond!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Exflyboy on December 18, 2019, 10:27:35 AM

Just when I think I'm doing OK you guys move the goalposts!...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: secondcor521 on December 18, 2019, 11:31:51 AM

PTF.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: 2sk22 on December 18, 2019, 01:45:13 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 18, 2019, 10:03:44 AM

I can certainly easily imagine am $8 million lifestyle. I have been doing my best to convince myself I don’t want to work to have it.

I could easily spend $5million on a beachfront home if I had that kind of money, but know a house 1 street back for 20% of the cost will have the same practical benefits.

I could blow a tonne on cars... but DW wouldn’t let me even if we had $8m.

Don’t start me on airplanes (again)... travel not owning... hmmm 🤔

Beyond that, with our “measly” minor millions we will get by fine 😬

But congrats and best wishes to the lucky and/or diligent few.

Here’s to “a bit better off than most” and beyond!!

I had a quiet chuckle when I read this. When I was sixteen, my dearest ambition in life was to eventually buy a supercar. Now, there is a Lamborghini dealership across the street from the Trader Joe's where I go to shop. I see the Huracans and the Urus' parked in a row outside and I don't feel even the slightest stirring of interest in them. I could buy one of them for cash and yet, all I can think of is how stupid these cars are.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: flyingaway on December 18, 2019, 09:16:49 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 18, 2019, 06:49:07 AM

In light of the new thread "Train from $4M to $8M" https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/train-from-$4m-to-$8m/   I've changed the title here to contain us to "just" $2M to $4M.

I will be more interested in spending money and enjoying my life, not in racing to a higher level, although I am sure my portfolio will keep growing. Life is short.

Title: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 18, 2019, 11:38:47 PM

.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 19, 2019, 04:28:17 AM

Throwing these big numbers around suddenly I feel broke! As long as I get by :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: jdfergason on December 19, 2019, 08:36:47 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 18, 2019, 09:47:04 AM

I liked the old title because it always made me think of Toy Story...To infinity and beyond!

I also liked the old title. There have been several high net worth threads but this is the one that has endured!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: PhrugalPhan on December 19, 2019, 12:38:26 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 19, 2019, 04:28:17 AM

Throwing these big numbers around suddenly I feel broke! As long as I get by :-)

Go to the Bogleheads forum and look up the threads on net worth if you want to feel broke.  My GF & my net worth grew over $300k this year, yet reading some of those threads made me feel so ….. inadequate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: jdfergason on December 19, 2019, 12:53:23 PM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on December 19, 2019, 12:38:26 PM

Go to the Bogleheads forum and look up the threads on net worth if you want to feel broke.  My GF & my net worth grew over $300k this year, yet reading some of those threads made me feel so ….. inadequate.

Haha, yeah I think it was Teddy Roosevelt that said comparison was the thief of joy! Fact is money, nor poverty, buys happiness and most everyone in this thread is doing really well. 300k is an awesome gain congrats!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: pecunia on December 19, 2019, 06:57:32 PM

Ever feel like a broken record.

Another record high for the Dow Jones.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/dow-jones-industrial-average-closes-at-record-high-51576793795 (https://www.barrons.com/articles/dow-jones-industrial-average-closes-at-record-high-51576793795)

Yeh, I liked the old title.  I'll never get to the new goal post.  On the other hand, it is not necessary.  Reaching the old one will provide adequate sustenance.

Is it real wealth?  With deficit spending by many governments and the increase in the money supply by central banks, is the stock market rise simply an indication of the increase in the money supply where the actual tangible assets that are being held are not increasing in real value?   Supposedly, we do not live in inflationary times, yet I just don't trust this thing going up and up.  It is an ever expanding bubble and many say it will burst.  I've got to wonder who are the people dumping all the cash in to keep driving the price up  Is the better part by big businesses buying back stock?

Per past posts, there are lots of well educated people making entries herein who have probably got this figured out.  You've all tried to explain it to me, but it just never completely sinks in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: SwordGuy on December 19, 2019, 07:48:56 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 19, 2019, 06:57:32 PM

Another record high for the Dow Jones.

...

Is it real wealth?  With deficit spending by many governments and the increase in the money supply by central banks, is the stock market rise simply an indication of the increase in the money supply where the actual tangible assets that are being held are not increasing in real value?   Supposedly, we do not live in inflationary times, yet I just don't trust this thing going up and up.  It is an ever expanding bubble and many say it will burst.  I've got to wonder who are the people dumping all the cash in to keep driving the price up  Is the better part by big businesses buying back stock?

Per past posts, there are lots of well educated people making entries herein who have probably got this figured out.  You've all tried to explain it to me, but it just never completely sinks in.

Darned if I know.   That's why we have multiple income streams in retirement instead of just stock and bonds.

Rental house income, rental farm income, social security and stocks/bonds.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on December 19, 2019, 11:28:17 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 24, 2019, 03:12:19 PM

A stack of one million, $1 bills is 358 feet tall and over a ton.  We could judge our goals in feet.  1000 feet or bust!

Which means, for most people on this thread, they literally have tons of money.

Interestingly, I think I figured out that $1M in USD converted to Canadian loonies is almost 9 tons of cash.  So even if you're "just" a millionaire, you could move North and still have tons of money.

And $1M in US dollar coins is also close to 9 tons.  It's also about 16.5 miles if you set the coins next to each other in a line.  Kind of odd to say that you have "miles and miles" of money, though.  For some here you could have "marathons" of money.

Or Statues of Liberty of money, if you wanted to go back to the height thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 20, 2019, 08:31:21 AM

Quote from: pecunia on December 19, 2019, 06:57:32 PM

Is it real wealth?  With deficit spending by many governments and the increase in the money supply by central banks, is the stock market rise simply an indication of the increase in the money supply where the actual tangible assets that are being held are not increasing in real value?   Supposedly, we do not live in inflationary times, yet I just don't trust this thing going up and up.  It is an ever expanding bubble and many say it will burst.  I've got to wonder who are the people dumping all the cash in to keep driving the price up  Is the better part by big businesses buying back stock?

Yes, it is real wealth.  If I want to use my appreciated equities to go buy a house or a new car, the number published as the value has not gone up at the same rate as the stock market.  I can buy lots more stuff than I could at the beginning of the year.  On the other hand, it is also real inequality.  People who do not own equities are still just getting by and their income has not gone up at the same rate.

The Fed is back on QE which forces cheap cash in to banks coupled with fiscal easing from USTCJA in 2017.  Also, yes, the US is running huge deficits with no end in sight. 

But, unless inequality bothers you, I'm not sure worrying about it does much good.  Everyone will be in the same boat when/if the bubble bursts - it will be like the Great Recession except now the government is the 'too big to fail' bank that needs to be bailed out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: terran on December 20, 2019, 08:56:51 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on December 19, 2019, 11:28:17 PM

Interestingly, I think I figured out that $1M in USD converted to Canadian loonies is almost 9 tons of cash.  So even if you're "just" a millionaire, you could move North and still have tons of money.

I think they'd have tonnes of money, not tons of money. And 1 US ton ~ 0.907 metric tonnes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on December 20, 2019, 11:58:51 AM

Quote from: terran on December 20, 2019, 08:56:51 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on December 19, 2019, 11:28:17 PM

Interestingly, I think I figured out that $1M in USD converted to Canadian loonies is almost 9 tons of cash.  So even if you're "just" a millionaire, you could move North and still have tons of money.

I think they'd have tonnes of money, not tons of money. And 1 US ton ~ 0.907 metric tonnes.

Good point.  I just did all the math in Google, so it's whatever Google considers a "ton".  They're probably smart enough to know me well enough to use US tons in their answers.

"Decatonnes of loonies" could be a nice turn of phrase, depending on your exact NW level.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on December 20, 2019, 10:09:02 PM

I guess it starts to feel real once you're spending it everyday.  For now, it really doesn't seem real.  The digits keep going up, up, up.  They have to turn back for at least a little while it seems.  All I know is, I've got six working days till a cool vacation.  My wife and I will be headed to our Florida home for a few days.  We'll have a driver pick us up at our home and bring us to the Tampa cruise terminal.  We board a luxury ship for 11 fun filled days in the Sun.  The driver then recovers us from the cruise terminal and drops us back home for a few more relaxed days.  It's almost February before we return to Louisiana and our jobs.   Kinda a mini Fat FIRE period.  Prelude to what is soon to come.🤩

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 21, 2019, 07:22:06 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 20, 2019, 10:09:02 PM

I guess it starts to feel real once you're spending it everyday.  For now, it really doesn't seem real.  The digits keep going up, up, up.  They have to turn back for at least a little while it seems.  All I know is, I've got six working days till a cool vacation.  My wife and I will be headed to our Florida home for a few days.  We'll have a driver pick us up at our home and bring us to the Tampa cruise terminal.  We board a luxury ship for 11 fun filled days in the Sun.  The driver then recovers us from the cruise terminal and drops us back home for a few more relaxed days.  It's almost February before we return to Louisiana and our jobs.   Kinda a mini Fat FIRE period.  Prelude to what is soon to come.🤩

Which cruise line are you going with ?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 21, 2019, 03:11:09 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on December 20, 2019, 11:58:51 AM

Quote from: terran on December 20, 2019, 08:56:51 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on December 19, 2019, 11:28:17 PM

Interestingly, I think I figured out that $1M in USD converted to Canadian loonies is almost 9 tons of cash.  So even if you're "just" a millionaire, you could move North and still have tons of money.

I think they'd have tonnes of money, not tons of money. And 1 US ton ~ 0.907 metric tonnes.

Good point.  I just did all the math in Google, so it's whatever Google considers a "ton".  They're probably smart enough to know me well enough to use US tons in their answers.

"Decatonnes of loonies" could be a nice turn of phrase, depending on your exact NW level.

Remember that "proper" English tons are 2240 pounds!..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on December 21, 2019, 03:30:00 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on December 21, 2019, 07:22:06 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 20, 2019, 10:09:02 PM

I guess it starts to feel real once you're spending it everyday.  For now, it really doesn't seem real.  The digits keep going up, up, up.  They have to turn back for at least a little while it seems.  All I know is, I've got six working days till a cool vacation.  My wife and I will be headed to our Florida home for a few days.  We'll have a driver pick us up at our home and bring us to the Tampa cruise terminal.  We board a luxury ship for 11 fun filled days in the Sun.  The driver then recovers us from the cruise terminal and drops us back home for a few more relaxed days.  It's almost February before we return to Louisiana and our jobs.   Kinda a mini Fat FIRE period.  Prelude to what is soon to come.🤩

Which cruise line are you going with ?

Norwegian Dawn is the ship.  We've sailed on it before, previously before a refit it's home port was New Orleans. We do like to cruise, and when work no longer gets in the way we can take advantage of some great bargins.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: wannabe-stache on December 21, 2019, 07:38:16 PM

Been a while since i visited this thread.  We cruised from $3.3M to $4.1M net worth as of 12/20/2019.  It is amazing how fast it goes up in a soaring market and how little it manages to really make an emotional uplift in your personal life.  My wife and i were walking with our 2 year old and i mentioned to her that dividends came through last night and oh by the way we crossed over $4M a few days ago.

She shrugged her shoulders and questioned whether she should stop for that iced coffee she loves.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Exflyboy on December 21, 2019, 08:00:42 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on December 21, 2019, 07:38:16 PM

Been a while since i visited this thread.  We cruised from $3.3M to $4.1M net worth as of 12/20/2019.  It is amazing how fast it goes up in a soaring market and how little it manages to really make an emotional uplift in your personal life.  My wife and i were walking with our 2 year old and i mentioned to her that dividends came through last night and oh by the way we crossed over $4M a few days ago.

She shrugged her shoulders and questioned whether she should stop for that iced coffee she loves.

To which you reply.."Well.. I think we can afford it"...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 21, 2019, 10:55:36 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 21, 2019, 08:00:42 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on December 21, 2019, 07:38:16 PM

Been a while since i visited this thread.  We cruised from $3.3M to $4.1M net worth as of 12/20/2019.  It is amazing how fast it goes up in a soaring market and how little it manages to really make an emotional uplift in your personal life.  My wife and i were walking with our 2 year old and i mentioned to her that dividends came through last night and oh by the way we crossed over $4M a few days ago.

She shrugged her shoulders and questioned whether she should stop for that iced coffee she loves.

To which you reply.."Well.. I think we can afford it"...:)

Also, just to state the obvious, it is easier to spend a bit more while the gains roll in (uh, free money).  When the market starts to falter, you think more about building assets at a discount.  I almost miss those times when I used effort to go against the grain and build assets.

Nothing wrong with carrying the frugal torch after FI if that is your happy place, you won't go broke doing that, but you will have more incentive to be frugal in a bear market, so don't miss out on enjoying the wealth when times are good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Exflyboy on December 21, 2019, 11:59:23 PM

Quote from: lhamo on December 21, 2019, 11:07:39 PM

My DH pointed out this morning that REI is having another 25% off special on their clearance section.

I replied that I save 100% by not buying something I don't really need.

We can afford anything we want.  We want little compared to most people.  That's the sweet spot, in my book.

Yes!...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: 2sk22 on December 22, 2019, 07:42:00 AM

Quote from: lhamo on December 21, 2019, 11:07:39 PM

My DH pointed out this morning that REI is having another 25% off special on their clearance section.

I replied that I save 100% by not buying something I don't really need.

We can afford anything we want.  We want little compared to most people.  That's the sweet spot, in my book.

Since people are always interested, I tallied up some of the luxuries that we pay for:

• Living near New York City - this is mainly reflected in high property taxes for a modest house. Its great to be able to go into the city on a whim. Also, I have a very short public transit commute into the city.
• Gym membership and once-a-week training session (both wife and myself). We started this just last year and it has been life changing.
• Hiring a trusted but somewhat expensive contractor for major home renovation projects - but this is quite rare. Until now I lacked the time and skill to do the work myself but with my impending retirement that will change. Hope to reach @Exflyboy and @soccerluvof4 levels of proficiency eventually :-)   
• Business class tickets for over-night international flights. Can't beat a life flat bed. This is a couple times a year.
• Organic eggs from a particular farm in Massachusetts - twice the price of Trader Joe's but well worth it!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 22, 2019, 01:21:11 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 22, 2019, 07:42:00 AM

Quote from: lhamo on December 21, 2019, 11:07:39 PM

My DH pointed out this morning that REI is having another 25% off special on their clearance section.

I replied that I save 100% by not buying something I don't really need.

We can afford anything we want.  We want little compared to most people.  That's the sweet spot, in my book.

Since people are always interested, I tallied up some of the luxuries that we pay for:

• Living near New York City - this is mainly reflected in high property taxes for a modest house. Its great to be able to go into the city on a whim. Also, I have a very short public transit commute into the city.
• Gym membership and once-a-week training session (both wife and myself). We started this just last year and it has been life changing.
• Hiring a trusted but somewhat expensive contractor for major home renovation projects - but this is quite rare. Until now I lacked the time and skill to do the work myself but with my impending retirement that will change. Hope to reach @Exflyboy and @soccerluvof4 levels of proficiency eventually :-)   
• Business class tickets for over-night international flights. Can't beat a life flat bed. This is a couple times a year.
• Organic eggs from a particular farm in Massachusetts - twice the price of Trader Joe's but well worth it!

Its good that you allow yourself to afford somethings that are important to you. Some people think or treat being Fire'd almost like its a prison sentence or a finish line but what good is it if you cant enjoy or have some indulgences.

For me/ Us it was living on a lake which we just accomplished to thoroughly enjoy our boat , view and have the cabin feel in what is hopefully our forever home.

Traveling with or to see our kids around the country play soccer

We have a gym membership but its just the Y. But I am one that needs to go somewhere to workout so its a good tradeoff as it offers something for everyone in the family to do.

Were pretty much dead center between two good size cities which enables us the opportunity to find all sorts of entertainment which we do as well indulge in occasionally but mostly the sporting events since all our pro teams have been pretty good of late.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 23, 2019, 08:04:12 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 21, 2019, 11:59:23 PM

Quote from: lhamo on December 21, 2019, 11:07:39 PM

My DH pointed out this morning that REI is having another 25% off special on their clearance section.

I replied that I save 100% by not buying something I don't really need.

We can afford anything we want.  We want little compared to most people.  That's the sweet spot, in my book.

Yes!...:)

Yeah, I think it's all relative.  Compared to people with my net worth (and income, although I could live off of my passive income), I'm Super-Frugal!  But compared to folks on this forum, I'm spendy-pants.

We live well but within our means.  We take lots of vacations, eat out quite a bit, don't pay close attention to our grocery budget, our teenagers have cell phones, decent clothes, a car and insurance, etc.  The beauty of FI is that you only need to glance at your finances every once in a while to ensure that the feeling of spending too much isn't, in reality, that you are living beyond your passive income means.  And we have plenty of spots where we could cut back with a little effort if it became necessary, but with this bull market roaring, I'm doing my best to 'let it go'.  If anything, we should probably be spending more but I'm proud of our stealth wealth and that our kids don't have outrageous expectations (no iPhone 11s or designer clothes, BMW, etc.).  We are still on the same page that those things are silly, overpriced, and ultimately make the owners less happy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: markbike528CBX on December 23, 2019, 11:59:27 AM

A vote to restore the previous name of the thread.   ...and beyond!

We can always link to the 4+M thread occasionally,. Since this isn't Bogleheads, and the thread is full of fear for bad thoughts directed at people with 4+M, I don't think it will be active enough to justify changing this thread's title.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: pecunia on December 23, 2019, 02:26:23 PM

Seconded - Going past three is already the great beyond.  It boggles the mind.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on December 23, 2019, 10:20:17 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 23, 2019, 02:26:23 PM

Seconded - Going past three is already the great beyond.  It boggles the mind.

3M won't happen until after retirement for us.  But, it will happen.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 06:11:21 PM

Woo-hoo!  We just made an offer on a 4 acre plot of land near our Florida home.  Since the Florida house is in a golf community and has HOA rules, I need some space.  The house sits on a big acre lot and is surrounded by acre lots.  There are two empty acre lots behind us currently and have been for 30 years now.   So, I guess we have plenty of space, but not free to do what I want space.  Anyway, it's only 1.1 miles away, so I can walk to it, bike to it, golf cart to it, you get the idea.  Hell, one day we may build on it if we choose.  It's listed for $32,500 for the whole 660 foot by 265 foot rectangle.  It's half wooded and half cleared, which is perfect.  I hope to put a large barn or shop on the property to keep my stuff.  Yeah, not very MMM I know.  But at least the garage at the house won't be cluttered then.  For now it's just going to be the land.  We'll decide on what we'll put on it later.  We're excited and have been looking for a nearby property for over a year.  This is as perfect as it gets location wise.  It abuts a nice church property for it's entire northern boundary.  A secondary paved road to the East, a secondary paved road to the South and a newly build home which is within our golf community to the west.  We're paying cash because we're going on a cruise in a week and just don't have time for banker's bullshit.  Damn I love being a millionaire.  Anyway.  Fun times.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 06:24:59 PM

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1840-N-Trucks-Ave-Hernando-FL-34442/98485972_zpid/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: SwordGuy on December 24, 2019, 06:52:09 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 06:24:59 PM

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1840-N-Trucks-Ave-Hernando-FL-34442/98485972_zpid/

Nice!

I understand your comment about banker's bullshit!

I just spent the last week futzing with them to get a mortgage on a sweet home for us.    I didn't want to take $350K out of our portfolio to do it all at once.  Mostly because I didn't want to pay all the taxes that would require.

So we're taking out $120k and financing the rest.  If we sell our old house and another one next year (no particular reason not to think we will), we should pay it off in 24 months.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Dicey on December 24, 2019, 07:05:26 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 06:24:59 PM

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1840-N-Trucks-Ave-Hernando-FL-34442/98485972_zpid/

Hahaha, I love the street name! Well, if the "N" stands for "No" it might be mustachian, lol. Congratulations!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 08:42:00 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 24, 2019, 06:52:09 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 06:24:59 PM

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1840-N-Trucks-Ave-Hernando-FL-34442/98485972_zpid/

Nice!

I understand your comment about banker's bullshit!

I just spent the last week futzing with them to get a mortgage on a sweet home for us.    I didn't want to take $350K out of our portfolio to do it all at once.  Mostly because I didn't want to pay all the taxes that would require.

So we're taking out $120k and financing the rest.  If we sell our old house and another one next year (no particular reason not to think we will), we should pay it off in 24 months.   

We jumped through all their hoops when buying our home in 2018, not for this.  We're headed there on the 3rd of January and maybe will own it before we leave on our cruise the 5th.  If not we'll hopefully settle by our leaving on the 19th.  I'm shopping metal buildings online right now.  Now buying one yet, just getting a price in mind.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 08:43:45 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 24, 2019, 07:05:26 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 06:24:59 PM

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1840-N-Trucks-Ave-Hernando-FL-34442/98485972_zpid/

Hahaha, I love the street name! Well, if the "N" stands for "No" it might be mustachian, lol. Congratulations!

In this case the N means North. We're excited

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: 2sk22 on December 25, 2019, 02:31:32 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 06:11:21 PM

Woo-hoo!  We just made an offer on a 4 acre plot of land near our Florida home.  Since the Florida house is in a golf community and has HOA rules, I need some space.  The house sits on a big acre lot and is surrounded by acre lots.  There are two empty acre lots behind us currently and have been for 30 years now.   So, I guess we have plenty of space, but not free to do what I want space.  Anyway, it's only 1.1 miles away, so I can walk to it, bike to it, golf cart to it, you get the idea.  Hell, one day we may build on it if we choose.  It's listed for $32,500 for the whole 660 foot by 265 foot rectangle.  It's half wooded and half cleared, which is perfect.  I hope to put a large barn or shop on the property to keep my stuff.  Yeah, not very MMM I know.  But at least the garage at the house won't be cluttered then.  For now it's just going to be the land.  We'll decide on what we'll put on it later.  We're excited and have been looking for a nearby property for over a year.  This is as perfect as it gets location wise.  It abuts a nice church property for it's entire northern boundary.  A secondary paved road to the East, a secondary paved road to the South and a newly build home which is within our golf community to the west.  We're paying cash because we're going on a cruise in a week and just don't have time for banker's bullshit.  Damn I love being a millionaire.  Anyway.  Fun times.

Nice! You can now create a food forest in that new property - https://ediblesouthflorida.ediblecommunities.com/things-do/year-round-edibles-grow-your-food-forest (https://ediblesouthflorida.ediblecommunities.com/things-do/year-round-edibles-grow-your-food-forest)

With a plot of land that big, it ought to be possible to grow a big chunk of your own food. I have grown increasingly interested in the concept of food forests.

Quote

Food forests mimic an actual forest, so they have a more natural appearance than gardens of annual veggies and herbs. They can also include plants that are beneficial to the soil and wildlife. In some regards, they require less maintenance than annual veggie/herb gardens because they include perennial plants that don’t require annual planting. When food forests mature, they create shade and make their own mulch when trees drop old leaves, so there tends to be less weeding. However, newly planted food forests need some weeding and mulching, occasional fertilization and pest management.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: JoJoP on December 25, 2019, 08:13:07 AM

Congrats Bateaux on the new plot of land.  There's nothing like having land! IMO!!

I've been gone from the site/thread for a few months, I caught up on the last few pages.   I'm glad everyone is doing well.

 We've been traveling as much as ever, and all is well.  NW is creeping up and we're happy, healthy, fat 'n' sassy.  Merry Christmas!

Currently we have to shift some RE around-- I had several vacancies and now have to sell one of them because our daughter has graduated college and is moving out to be closer to the new, excellent job she now has.   The commute is untenable from her current location.  I'm faced with the dilemma of "just how generous do I want to be to help my young adult children get their first home?"  We live in a Very HCOL area and prices have skyrocketed in the past few years.    Our personal NW has ridden this tide, but now the shoe is on the other foot.   It's hard to imagine a young person starting out making these hefty payments, property taxes, etc.    Little 1 or 2 bedroom condos that aren't in the ghetto cost so much.  Since our NW is nearly all RE, I'm a proponent of living in home you own, not rent. 

Also, I'll cast my vote for restoring the "and beyond" title.   I always liked it and it seemed high enough for a MMM thread.  I've been "and beyond" since before I joined MMM, so there's that.   I love our chat room.  The new thread is more a "how'd ya do it?" thread.  I'll pop in to the 4-8 thread just to mention that RE does work for some of us, but you guys are my besties.  Glad to be back!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on December 25, 2019, 09:43:08 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 25, 2019, 02:31:32 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 06:11:21 PM

Woo-hoo!  We just made an offer on a 4 acre plot of land near our Florida home.  Since the Florida house is in a golf community and has HOA rules, I need some space.  The house sits on a big acre lot and is surrounded by acre lots.  There are two empty acre lots behind us currently and have been for 30 years now.   So, I guess we have plenty of space, but not free to do what I want space.  Anyway, it's only 1.1 miles away, so I can walk to it, bike to it, golf cart to it, you get the idea.  Hell, one day we may build on it if we choose.  It's listed for $32,500 for the whole 660 foot by 265 foot rectangle.  It's half wooded and half cleared, which is perfect.  I hope to put a large barn or shop on the property to keep my stuff.  Yeah, not very MMM I know.  But at least the garage at the house won't be cluttered then.  For now it's just going to be the land.  We'll decide on what we'll put on it later.  We're excited and have been looking for a nearby property for over a year.  This is as perfect as it gets location wise.  It abuts a nice church property for it's entire northern boundary.  A secondary paved road to the East, a secondary paved road to the South and a newly build home which is within our golf community to the west.  We're paying cash because we're going on a cruise in a week and just don't have time for banker's bullshit.  Damn I love being a millionaire.  Anyway.  Fun times.

Nice! You can now create a food forest in that new property - https://ediblesouthflorida.ediblecommunities.com/things-do/year-round-edibles-grow-your-food-forest (https://ediblesouthflorida.ediblecommunities.com/things-do/year-round-edibles-grow-your-food-forest)

With a plot of land that big, it ought to be possible to grow a big chunk of your own food. I have grown increasingly interested in the concept of food forests.

Quote

Food forests mimic an actual forest, so they have a more natural appearance than gardens of annual veggies and herbs. They can also include plants that are beneficial to the soil and wildlife. In some regards, they require less maintenance than annual veggie/herb gardens because they include perennial plants that don’t require annual planting. When food forests mature, they create shade and make their own mulch when trees drop old leaves, so there tends to be less weeding. However, newly planted food forests need some weeding and mulching, occasional fertilization and pest management.

We could add soil and grow a few things, but it's really sandy in the area.  I'll definitely put in citrus trees, I have lovely mature ones in Louisiana that are loaded with fruit right now.  Maybe banana trees and possibly coconut palms.   Thanks for the well wishes. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on December 25, 2019, 09:53:05 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on December 25, 2019, 08:13:07 AM

Congrats Bateaux on the new plot of land.  There's nothing like having land! IMO!!

I've been gone from the site/thread for a few months, I caught up on the last few pages.   I'm glad everyone is doing well.

 We've been traveling as much as ever, and all is well.  NW is creeping up and we're happy, healthy, fat 'n' sassy.  Merry Christmas!

Currently we have to shift some RE around-- I had several vacancies and now have to sell one of them because our daughter has graduated college and is moving out to be closer to the new, excellent job she now has.   The commute is untenable from her current location.  I'm faced with the dilemma of "just how generous do I want to be to help my young adult children get their first home?"  We live in a Very HCOL area and prices have skyrocketed in the past few years.    Our personal NW has ridden this tide, but now the shoe is on the other foot.   It's hard to imagine a young person starting out making these hefty payments, property taxes, etc.    Little 1 or 2 bedroom condos that aren't in the ghetto cost so much.  Since our NW is nearly all RE, I'm a proponent of living in home you own, not rent. 

Also, I'll cast my vote for restoring the "and beyond" title.   I always liked it and it seemed high enough for a MMM thread.  I've been "and beyond" since before I joined MMM, so there's that.   I love our chat room.  The new thread is more a "how'd ya do it?" thread.  I'll pop in to the 4-8 thread just to mention that RE does work for some of us, but you guys are my besties.  Glad to be back!

So glad to see you back.  Congratulations on your own and your children's success.  I see nothing wrong with giving your kids a boost up, as long as it isn't a drag along.  A chemical reaction needs a catalyst and energy of activation often to get started.  Once it's warmed up it can be self sustaining.  I agree that the and beyond was a good ending to the title.  Many of us are now or will be at 4M networth at sometime.  Many of us will be quitting our jobs or changing what we do well before the 4M mark. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: pecunia on December 27, 2019, 02:08:19 PM

You guys ever hear of positive feedback.   It was also called too many poles in the right half plane

This Dow Jones thing somehow reminds me of it.

It's like a short circuit.   maybe, it can continue for a little while, but the house will burn down.

https://www.investors.com/market-trend/stock-market-today/dow-jones-industrial-average-record-high-apple-stock-amazon-stock-buy-point/ (https://www.investors.com/market-trend/stock-market-today/dow-jones-industrial-average-record-high-apple-stock-amazon-stock-buy-point/)

These may be the best of times.  They may be the worst of times.

But you might as well have a Happy New Year!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Car Jack on December 30, 2019, 07:25:53 AM

Positive feedback can be imaginary when the plane is complex.

(yuk, yuk)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: jdfergason on December 30, 2019, 11:37:54 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 25, 2019, 09:43:08 AM

We could add soil and grow a few things, but it's really sandy in the area.  I'll definitely put in citrus trees, I have lovely mature ones in Louisiana that are loaded with fruit right now.  Maybe banana trees and possibly coconut palms.   Thanks for the well wishes.

Congrats on the land--that is exciting. I would be stoked about what I could grow in Florida. Definitely check out a katuk plant. It's leaves are edible and kind of taste like peanut butter. Grows very well in Florida. I would also do Red Lady Papaya. There's also many varieties of bananas that taste much better than store bought bananas.

Some other plants to check out:

• Black Sapote
• Jack Fruit - Giant trees and very productive (get red variety)
• Mamey Sapote Pantin
• White Pine Pineapple
• Açaí palm - Rich in anti-oxidants
• Mango

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on December 30, 2019, 12:05:21 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 08:43:45 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 24, 2019, 07:05:26 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 06:24:59 PM

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1840-N-Trucks-Ave-Hernando-FL-34442/98485972_zpid/

Hahaha, I love the street name! Well, if the "N" stands for "No" it might be mustachian, lol. Congratulations!

In this case the N means North. We're excited

Sweet! We have family in Bevery Hills and Citrus Springs. Gonna be neighbors soon! Nothing like scalloping all summer. The area is full of redneck country bumpkins though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on December 31, 2019, 01:34:15 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on December 30, 2019, 12:05:21 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 08:43:45 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 24, 2019, 07:05:26 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 06:24:59 PM

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1840-N-Trucks-Ave-Hernando-FL-34442/98485972_zpid/

Hahaha, I love the street name! Well, if the "N" stands for "No" it might be mustachian, lol. Congratulations!

In this case the N means North. We're excited

Sweet! We have family in Bevery Hills and Citrus Springs. Gonna be neighbors soon! Nothing like scalloping all summer. The area is full of redneck country bumpkins though.

I'm a bit of a redneck bumkin so I can speak the language.   So you're moving to Citrus County?  It is beautiful and thus far we're happy with out choice.  Haven't figured out what to do with Louisiana property yet.   Flooding is the major issue.  Hope to see you in Florida some time. 😎

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: MishMash on January 02, 2020, 03:12:12 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 31, 2019, 01:34:15 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on December 30, 2019, 12:05:21 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 08:43:45 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 24, 2019, 07:05:26 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 06:24:59 PM

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1840-N-Trucks-Ave-Hernando-FL-34442/98485972_zpid/

Hahaha, I love the street name! Well, if the "N" stands for "No" it might be mustachian, lol. Congratulations!

In this case the N means North. We're excited

Sweet! We have family in Bevery Hills and Citrus Springs. Gonna be neighbors soon! Nothing like scalloping all summer. The area is full of redneck country bumpkins though.

I'm a bit of a redneck bumkin so I can speak the language.   So you're moving to Citrus County?  It is beautiful and thus far we're happy with out choice.  Haven't figured out what to do with Louisiana property yet.   Flooding is the major issue.  Hope to see you in Florida some time. 😎

You are right up the road from us, we moved to Hillsborough this year.  Check out the Blue Java ice cream banana and the fruit cocktail citrus trees.  Also super tasty is the Sumo mandarin.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: pecunia on January 02, 2020, 04:13:33 PM

In 2020, Happy Days are Here Again:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/02/investing/dow-stock-market-record-today/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/02/investing/dow-stock-market-record-today/index.html)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 02, 2020, 05:41:22 PM

Any plans on how to handle a hurricane if you live in Florida and your house is damaged, maybe even completely lost ?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: MishMash on January 02, 2020, 05:49:16 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 02, 2020, 05:41:22 PM

Any plans on how to handle a hurricane if you live in Florida and your house is damaged, maybe even completely lost ?

Insurance, we have NFIP, hurricane, wind and sinkhole, along with a large umbrella in case of injury.  And while we pay a pretty freaking penny for insurance, housing is WAY cheaper here then where we have lived in the past.  We also chose to not live where we really wanted to just so that we were in an X zone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 02, 2020, 05:54:34 PM

Quote from: MishMash on January 02, 2020, 05:49:16 PM

\  We also chose to not live where we really wanted to just so that we were in an X zone.

Can you explain what you mean here? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: SwordGuy on January 02, 2020, 06:10:35 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 02, 2020, 05:54:34 PM

Quote from: MishMash on January 02, 2020, 05:49:16 PM

\  We also chose to not live where we really wanted to just so that we were in an X zone.

Can you explain what you mean here?

It's a flood plain classification that basically means "not in flood danger (unless we're wrong)".   I.e., like most homes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on January 02, 2020, 07:08:09 PM

Quote from: MishMash on January 02, 2020, 03:12:12 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 31, 2019, 01:34:15 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on December 30, 2019, 12:05:21 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 08:43:45 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 24, 2019, 07:05:26 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2019, 06:24:59 PM

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1840-N-Trucks-Ave-Hernando-FL-34442/98485972_zpid/

Hahaha, I love the street name! Well, if the "N" stands for "No" it might be mustachian, lol. Congratulations!

In this case the N means North. We're excited

Sweet! We have family in Bevery Hills and Citrus Springs. Gonna be neighbors soon! Nothing like scalloping all summer. The area is full of redneck country bumpkins though.

I'm a bit of a redneck bumkin so I can speak the language.   So you're moving to Citrus County?  It is beautiful and thus far we're happy with out choice.  Haven't figured out what to do with Louisiana property yet.   Flooding is the major issue.  Hope to see you in Florida some time. 😎

You are right up the road from us, we moved to Hillsborough this year.  Check out the Blue Java ice cream banana and the fruit cocktail citrus trees.  Also super tasty is the Sumo mandarin.

I'm wanting to plant citrus trees soon on the acre that surrounds our Florida house. Definitely want some bananas.  Friend in Dunnellon has some just about ready too eat.  I tried bananas in Louisiana, but lost them to frost before they could bear fruit.  One of the things I hate about leaving Louisiana is my mature citrus trees that are loaded right now.. Navel, grapefruit, Satsuma.   Trying to get this property bought so we can plant more there as well. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on January 02, 2020, 07:16:58 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 02, 2020, 06:10:35 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 02, 2020, 05:54:34 PM

Quote from: MishMash on January 02, 2020, 05:49:16 PM

\  We also chose to not live where we really wanted to just so that we were in an X zone.

Can you explain what you mean here?

It's a flood plain classification that basically means "not in flood danger (unless we're wrong)".   I.e., like most homes.

I'm actually leaving Louisiana because of the hurricane threat.  The Louisiana house had water to the second floor in 2016.  I rode the storm out in the house with our two dogs.  I evacuated the family to high ground the day before.  I wasn't afraid till it entered the second floor.  Knowing that there was 10 to 15 feet of water in the yard where we normally walk on dry ground was the last straw.  The decision was made to move to Florida to avoid hurricanes.  Our Florida home is high in the hills and cannot ever flood.  Wind damage maybe, but that is such a slight risk in our location that it doesn't even scare us.   Storm surge and flooding is scary stuff.  It's only a short drive to the gulf for us, and although we considered waterfront, the risk is just too high. 

I'm seeing the makings of a Florida West Coast Krewe here.  Scalloping, fishing, biking, hiking!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: UnleashHell on January 03, 2020, 04:33:32 AM

not in the 2m bracket yet but am in the Florida west coast crew! Another hillsborough resident - with a house in an X location. With the revised flood zones it was worth seeking one out to bring insurance costs down.

We are less likely to get the hurricanes this side - Irma was an anomaly but simple things like having a brick build house, raised elevation and proper roof ties will dramatically reduce potential loss. no guarantees obviously. My location is currently driven by work for my and my SO. after that then we are looking at Citrus county area and should be able to get a similar house plus land for the value of what I'm in now. even our small bit of land that we have hold pineapples and we'll be adding lime and avocados. Looking forward to more of that with more land.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 03, 2020, 05:08:03 AM

Quote from: MishMash on January 02, 2020, 05:49:16 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 02, 2020, 05:41:22 PM

Any plans on how to handle a hurricane if you live in Florida and your house is damaged, maybe even completely lost ?

Insurance, we have NFIP, hurricane, wind and sinkhole, along with a large umbrella in case of injury.  And while we pay a pretty freaking penny for insurance, housing is WAY cheaper here then where we have lived in the past.  We also chose to not live where we really wanted to just so that we were in an X zone.

Also if buying a "used" home make sure it meets current FL hurricane standards.  My sister and BIL finally got their 1980s roof retrofitted so that it meets current standards which will drop their hurricane insurance in half. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on January 03, 2020, 05:13:01 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on January 03, 2020, 04:33:32 AM

not in the 2m bracket yet but am in the Florida west coast crew! Another hillsborough resident - with a house in an X location. With the revised flood zones it was worth seeking one out to bring insurance costs down.

We are less likely to get the hurricanes this side - Irma was an anomaly but simple things like having a brick build house, raised elevation and proper roof ties will dramatically reduce potential loss. no guarantees obviously. My location is currently driven by work for my and my SO. after that then we are looking at Citrus county area and should be able to get a similar house plus land for the value of what I'm in now. even our small bit of land that we have hold pineapples and we'll be adding lime and avocados. Looking forward to more of that with more land.

Awesome great to hear from more near neighbors.  We're going to be headed to Citrus County in a few hours from Louisiana house.  Tampa cruise terminal Sunday.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on January 03, 2020, 09:45:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 03, 2020, 05:13:01 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on January 03, 2020, 04:33:32 AM

not in the 2m bracket yet but am in the Florida west coast crew! Another hillsborough resident - with a house in an X location. With the revised flood zones it was worth seeking one out to bring insurance costs down.

We are less likely to get the hurricanes this side - Irma was an anomaly but simple things like having a brick build house, raised elevation and proper roof ties will dramatically reduce potential loss. no guarantees obviously. My location is currently driven by work for my and my SO. after that then we are looking at Citrus county area and should be able to get a similar house plus land for the value of what I'm in now. even our small bit of land that we have hold pineapples and we'll be adding lime and avocados. Looking forward to more of that with more land.

Awesome great to hear from more near neighbors.  We're going to be headed to Citrus County in a few hours from Louisiana house.  Tampa cruise terminal Sunday.

We replaced our roof in April.  Turned the recertification into the county and insurance.  It was a nice savings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 03, 2020, 03:26:12 PM

I would love to have a place in Florida where I could grow some of these fruit trees.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: UnleashHell on January 04, 2020, 04:45:10 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 03, 2020, 09:45:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 03, 2020, 05:13:01 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on January 03, 2020, 04:33:32 AM

not in the 2m bracket yet but am in the Florida west coast crew! Another hillsborough resident - with a house in an X location. With the revised flood zones it was worth seeking one out to bring insurance costs down.

We are less likely to get the hurricanes this side - Irma was an anomaly but simple things like having a brick build house, raised elevation and proper roof ties will dramatically reduce potential loss. no guarantees obviously. My location is currently driven by work for my and my SO. after that then we are looking at Citrus county area and should be able to get a similar house plus land for the value of what I'm in now. even our small bit of land that we have hold pineapples and we'll be adding lime and avocados. Looking forward to more of that with more land.

Awesome great to hear from more near neighbors.  We're going to be headed to Citrus County in a few hours from Louisiana house.  Tampa cruise terminal Sunday.

We replaced our roof in April.  Turned the recertification into the county and insurance.  It was a nice savings.

ours was done in August right before we moved in. had the 4 point inspection done to make sure the roof was attached up to standard which kept the insurance down. The house is also raised a few feet up which keeps it out of the 100 year flood zone. just. just enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: MishMash on January 04, 2020, 02:36:18 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 02, 2020, 07:16:58 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 02, 2020, 06:10:35 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 02, 2020, 05:54:34 PM

Quote from: MishMash on January 02, 2020, 05:49:16 PM

\  We also chose to not live where we really wanted to just so that we were in an X zone.

Can you explain what you mean here?

It's a flood plain classification that basically means "not in flood danger (unless we're wrong)".   I.e., like most homes.

I'm actually leaving Louisiana because of the hurricane threat.  The Louisiana house had water to the second floor in 2016.  I rode the storm out in the house with our two dogs.  I evacuated the family to high ground the day before.  I wasn't afraid till it entered the second floor.  Knowing that there was 10 to 15 feet of water in the yard where we normally walk on dry ground was the last straw.  The decision was made to move to Florida to avoid hurricanes.  Our Florida home is high in the hills and cannot ever flood.  Wind damage maybe, but that is such a slight risk in our location that it doesn't even scare us.   Storm surge and flooding is scary stuff.  It's only a short drive to the gulf for us, and although we considered waterfront, the risk is just too high. 

I'm seeing the makings of a Florida West Coast Krewe here.  Scalloping, fishing, biking, hiking!

Heck yea Florida West coast crew.  We are about to purchase a very unmustachian boat to take advantage of all the water sports.  We did scalloping for the first time this summer and it was so much fun.  And we live and breathe fishing, in fact pretty much all our vacations center around fishing.  It gets harder to beat back the husband on a. 27ft boat when you see the outsized gains of this past year and you know you have to run 50 miles to get to good fishing grounds.  But it will also come in handy for lobster mini season this year as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: MishMash on January 04, 2020, 02:48:56 PM

Quote from: UnleashHell on January 03, 2020, 04:33:32 AM

not in the 2m bracket yet but am in the Florida west coast crew! Another hillsborough resident - with a house in an X location. With the revised flood zones it was worth seeking one out to bring insurance costs down.

We are less likely to get the hurricanes this side - Irma was an anomaly but simple things like having a brick build house, raised elevation and proper roof ties will dramatically reduce potential loss. no guarantees obviously. My location is currently driven by work for my and my SO. after that then we are looking at Citrus county area and should be able to get a similar house plus land for the value of what I'm in now. even our small bit of land that we have hold pineapples and we'll be adding lime and avocados. Looking forward to more of that with more land.

I've worked with FEMA so finding out they were redrawing all the maps, right at the time we HAD to buy a house, was disconcerting to say the least.  So we opted for a new build to ensure everything was up to code and we only looked in X zones.  We saw a house on a canal that we REALLY liked, so I called our insurance company to just get an estimate and lets just say the guy on the phone started laughing and goes "I've never seen a flood quote this high, they REALLY don't want to insure that house". Found out why after the fact, house had flooded, twice.  But having just two weeks to find and buy a house really puts the pressure on, I'm just glad we didn't end up in a past flooded house and I'm glad we managed to offload the DC house before anything catastrophic went wrong in it (the pipes and AC were both up for replacement)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 08, 2020, 08:41:15 AM

Its going to be interesting to see if this Iran situation rolls over to trigger a market correction.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: itchyfeet on January 08, 2020, 08:49:12 AM

I don’t expect so.

I don’t expect a further escalation.

The plane crass in Tehran today was certainly the last thing Iran needed. Very sad.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: pecunia on January 08, 2020, 03:15:03 PM

They say the guy Trump killed was the second in charge in Iran.  He had a big funeral.  It could be a bit until it blows over.  I hope the next president is more diplomatic.  All this sanction stuff with these countries seems like it would be bad for business.  Prosperous businesses and rising stock prices often go hand in hand.  Peace could have a chance to get me to 4 million.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Exflyboy on January 08, 2020, 03:43:33 PM

Wars might trigger a short term correction (buying opportunity) but they are usually a great economic stimulus too.. WW2 was arguably the spending lube that got the US economy moving again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: pecunia on January 08, 2020, 05:51:57 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 08, 2020, 03:43:33 PM

Wars might trigger a short term correction (buying opportunity) but they are usually a great economic stimulus too.. WW2 was arguably the spending lube that got the US economy moving again.

I've heard that and believe it.  Wouldn't the same amount of spending on stuff like high speed trains, rebuilding interstate highways, water reclamation projects and even trips to Mars also act as a spending lube?  These would have the added benefit of actually doing some good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on January 09, 2020, 01:21:40 PM

Checking in from St Thomas.  Had a swim at the beach in Megan's Bay, it was lovely.  We're back on board the  Norwegian Dawn.  Catamaran sail tomorrow in Antigua.  Such a miserable life, oh checked the market after 4 days at sea.  Cha-Ching we aren't spending nearly fast enough to keep up with the increases.   Time to go enjoy our adult beverages package.  Bateaux out...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 09, 2020, 01:35:26 PM

Looks like the warm embrace of 'financial independence' has claimed Prince Harry and Meghan Markle - The Duke and Duchess of Sussex have announced they are stepping back as senior royals and intend to become financially independent. (https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-51047186)

It's an interesting commentary on being free to do what you want when you want because no one holds financial leverage over you.  In my humble opinion, living FI is about as cool as it gets.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Exflyboy on January 09, 2020, 01:38:39 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 09, 2020, 01:35:26 PM

Looks like the warm embrace of 'financial independence' has claimed Prince Harry and Meghan Markle - The Duke and Duchess of Sussex have announced they are stepping back as senior royals and intend to become financially independent. (https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-51047186)

It's an interesting commentary on being free to do what you want when you want because no one holds financial leverage over you.  In my humble opinion, living FI is about as cool as it gets.

"Become" financially independent?... The Queen heads up one of the richest families in the World.. I don't think there is much "becoming" to be done here..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 09, 2020, 01:41:36 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 09, 2020, 01:38:39 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 09, 2020, 01:35:26 PM

Looks like the warm embrace of 'financial independence' has claimed Prince Harry and Meghan Markle - The Duke and Duchess of Sussex have announced they are stepping back as senior royals and intend to become financially independent. (https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-51047186)

It's an interesting commentary on being free to do what you want when you want because no one holds financial leverage over you.  In my humble opinion, living FI is about as cool as it gets.

"Become" financially independent?... The Queen heads up one of the richest families in the World.. I don't think there is much "becoming" to be done here..:)

Of course, I'm not saying they are Mustachian or earned their way - just that they are expressing the desire to 'earn their own money',  and be freed from official obligations tied to them accepting public monies.  It will be interesting to watch how it plays out....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: pecunia on January 09, 2020, 03:01:02 PM

It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood, a beautiful day in the neighborhood,.....  Record Highs!

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/01/09/trump-asks-how-your-409-ks-doing-market-records/4419567002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/01/09/trump-asks-how-your-409-ks-doing-market-records/4419567002/)

Maybe Trump meant 409K and not 401K,......nah.  Still:

Like the Beach Boys used to sing:

She's real fine my 409
She's real fine my 409
My 409

Well I saved my pennies and I saved my dimes
(giddy up giddy up 409)
For I knew there would be a time
(giddy up giddy up 409)
When I would buy a brand new 409
(409, 409)
Giddy up giddy up giddy up 409
(giddy up giddy up 409)
Giddy up 409

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Threshkin on January 09, 2020, 09:58:52 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 08, 2020, 03:15:03 PM

They say the guy Trump killed was the second in charge in Iran.  He had a big funeral.  It could be a bit until it blows over.  I hope the next president is more diplomatic.  All this sanction stuff with these countries seems like it would be bad for business.  Prosperous businesses and rising stock prices often go hand in hand.  Peace could have a chance to get me to 4 million.

I don't think we are done with Iran yet but it may be a while before we see a new president. 

A hot shooting war would certainly disrupt the status quo but at least so far both sides seem reluctant to go there.  Thank god for that!

Impeachment is in limbo.  After such a rush to judgment in the House the current delay is inexplicable. Even Senior Senate Democrats like Feinstein are starting to tell Pelosi to move forward.

Sanctions against Iran or NK will not have much impact on the US or really much impact on the ROW either.  Sanctions on these two countries have been in effect for decades already.  It's not like they are big trading partners with the US or most other countries.

Even the trade war with China (and other countries) has had less effect on the markets than expected.  This surprised me, I was expecting much more impact.  I guess all the bluster and chest thumping on both sides of the Pacific is just noise after all.

The Democrats have too many candidates in the race.  They are increasingly attacking each other, effectively doing Trump's work for him.  Hopefully by the time a candidate finally emerges with the nomination he or she will not be morally wounded by his or her own competitors.  In the mean time all they are doing is giving the Trump campaign dirt to use against them.

Back on topic, last year was amazing for my post FIRE portfolio, being up well over 20% net of expenses more than wiped out being essentially flat for 2018.  2020 is starting out well and some analysts are saying we might have another strong up year.  Sooner or later this bull market will have to crash but in the mean time I am letting my chips ride.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 09, 2020, 11:16:07 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on January 09, 2020, 09:58:52 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 08, 2020, 03:15:03 PM

They say the guy Trump killed was the second in charge in Iran.  He had a big funeral.  It could be a bit until it blows over.  I hope the next president is more diplomatic.  All this sanction stuff with these countries seems like it would be bad for business.  Prosperous businesses and rising stock prices often go hand in hand.  Peace could have a chance to get me to 4 million.

I don't think we are done with Iran yet but it may be a while before we see a new president. 

A hot shooting war would certainly disrupt the status quo but at least so far both sides seem reluctant to go there.  Thank god for that!

Impeachment is in limbo.  After such a rush to judgment in the House the current delay is inexplicable. Even Senior Senate Democrats like Feinstein are starting to tell Pelosi to move forward.

Sanctions against Iran or NK will not have much impact on the US or really much impact on the ROW either.  Sanctions on these two countries have been in effect for decades already.  It's not like they are big trading partners with the US or most other countries.

Even the trade war with China (and other countries) has had less effect on the markets than expected.  This surprised me, I was expecting much more impact.  I guess all the bluster and chest thumping on both sides of the Pacific is just noise after all.

The Democrats have too many candidates in the race.  They are increasingly attacking each other, effectively doing Trump's work for him.  Hopefully by the time a candidate finally emerges with the nomination he or she will not be morally wounded by his or her own competitors.  In the mean time all they are doing is giving the Trump campaign dirt to use against them.

Back on topic, last year was amazing for my post FIRE portfolio, being up well over 20% net of expenses more than wiped out being essentially flat for 2018.  2020 is starting out well and some analysts are saying we might have another strong up year.  Sooner or later this bull market will have to crash but in the mean time I am letting my chips ride.

It's nice to be almost bored with my portfolio going up, I'm not going to complain about paying less income tax and having a spiking net worth.

On the flip side, if you think about the 'cost' of having a President like Trump who is good for our portfolios (and for another tax cut during his next term), it's a bit depressing.  For instance, if Trump were not in the middle of impeachment taking the headlines away from his 'greatness', he might not have ordered the attack on Soleimani (since we have yet to produce a true imminent threat).  If the Iranians did not have to save face and calm the masses (given the stampede during the funeral), they might not have had to launch missiles and and be on high alert against more US strikes.  If the missile attack and high alert were not going on, the Ukrainian flight would not have been hit by a surface to air missile.  And ultimately, many innocent people would be alive today and the world would be a better place.

Maybe this is just a bit of 'survivor guilt' like after Harvey in Houston when there was an indiscriminate selection of families flooded and lives upended, but an increasingly unstable, polarized, churning world makes everything less fun for everyone.  I'm enjoying reading the latest Wait but Why Series (https://waitbutwhy.com/2020/01/sick-giant.html) which discusses some of the underpinnings of the why.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 10, 2020, 04:23:38 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 09, 2020, 11:16:07 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on January 09, 2020, 09:58:52 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 08, 2020, 03:15:03 PM

They say the guy Trump killed was the second in charge in Iran.  He had a big funeral.  It could be a bit until it blows over.  I hope the next president is more diplomatic.  All this sanction stuff with these countries seems like it would be bad for business.  Prosperous businesses and rising stock prices often go hand in hand.  Peace could have a chance to get me to 4 million.

I don't think we are done with Iran yet but it may be a while before we see a new president. 

A hot shooting war would certainly disrupt the status quo but at least so far both sides seem reluctant to go there.  Thank god for that!

Impeachment is in limbo.  After such a rush to judgment in the House the current delay is inexplicable. Even Senior Senate Democrats like Feinstein are starting to tell Pelosi to move forward.

Sanctions against Iran or NK will not have much impact on the US or really much impact on the ROW either.  Sanctions on these two countries have been in effect for decades already.  It's not like they are big trading partners with the US or most other countries.

Even the trade war with China (and other countries) has had less effect on the markets than expected.  This surprised me, I was expecting much more impact.  I guess all the bluster and chest thumping on both sides of the Pacific is just noise after all.

The Democrats have too many candidates in the race.  They are increasingly attacking each other, effectively doing Trump's work for him.  Hopefully by the time a candidate finally emerges with the nomination he or she will not be morally wounded by his or her own competitors.  In the mean time all they are doing is giving the Trump campaign dirt to use against them.

Back on topic, last year was amazing for my post FIRE portfolio, being up well over 20% net of expenses more than wiped out being essentially flat for 2018.  2020 is starting out well and some analysts are saying we might have another strong up year.  Sooner or later this bull market will have to crash but in the mean time I am letting my chips ride.

It's nice to be almost bored with my portfolio going up, I'm not going to complain about paying less income tax and having a spiking net worth.

On the flip side, if you think about the 'cost' of having a President like Trump who is good for our portfolios (and for another tax cut during his next term), it's a bit depressing.  For instance, if Trump were not in the middle of impeachment taking the headlines away from his 'greatness', he might not have ordered the attack on Soleimani (since we have yet to produce a true imminent threat).  If the Iranians did not have to save face and calm the masses (given the stampede during the funeral), they might not have had to launch missiles and and be on high alert against more US strikes.  If the missile attack and high alert were not going on, the Ukrainian flight would not have been hit by a surface to air missile.  And ultimately, many innocent people would be alive today and the world would be a better place.

Maybe this is just a bit of 'survivor guilt' like after Harvey in Houston when there was an indiscriminate selection of families flooded and lives upended, but an increasingly unstable, polarized, churning world makes everything less fun for everyone.  I'm enjoying reading the latest Wait but Why Series (https://waitbutwhy.com/2020/01/sick-giant.html) which discusses some of the underpinnings of the why.

Totally agree with all the lives lost but while there is that I am waiting to see, if we ever see what the intelligence reports actually prove/say because of how many more lives if the prove to be true might of been saved. But we the people will probably never find out the real truth of things.

I also agree this is not the end of things, its a matter of deciphering what is really an escalation of Trump taking him out vs just what they have always been mixed up in. Again , do we ever learn the truth on these matters as sides come into things and media and everything gets so distorted.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Car Jack on January 10, 2020, 06:41:27 AM

Got an email yesterday from eTrade, where my company does RSUs and ESPP.  $100 for 6 months of $5k new money.  Pfffft.  Easy.  There are higher levels, but are much more $/reward, so I'm happy with this.

I'm within striking distance of my next target.....$2.75M.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 10, 2020, 02:40:06 PM

An acquaintance who works at a local bank said that for the last three months the Federal Reserve has essentially done another Quantitative Easing, and it would be called QE 4, but it hasn't been given a name. The balance sheet of the Fed is now back to being as high with treasury bonds (and possibly mortgage backed securities too?) as it has ever been.

I was aware that the Fed lowered interest rates three times in 2019, but I wasn't aware of the Quantitative easing.

The cause for this easing was some liquidity crisis with some banks that were having some problems, SoftBank, and Deutsche Bank, and maybe a couple of others, according to this banker.
Not sure why these banks were in this liquidity crisis.  Not clear how the quantitative easing helps these banks.
The banker said the QE is what is sending stocks higher.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: desk_jockey on January 10, 2020, 03:49:56 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 08, 2020, 05:51:57 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 08, 2020, 03:43:33 PM

Wars might trigger a short term correction (buying opportunity) but they are usually a great economic stimulus too.. WW2 was arguably the spending lube that got the US economy moving again.

I've heard that and believe it.  Wouldn't the same amount of spending on stuff like high speed trains, rebuilding interstate highways, water reclamation projects and even trips to Mars also act as a spending lube?  These would have the added benefit of actually doing some good.

War is a great economic stimulus in the same way that breaking a shop window is economic stimulus.  The shop owner must spend money to replace the window, so that could be considered economic stimulus even though he could have used the money for expansion instead.    The UK won WW2, but damn if they didn’t suffer later trying to pay down their war debt. 

Wars were better stimulus back in the good old days when a country could keep the land and goods that it seized.  Now in these unfortunate modern times when one has to rebuild everything and try to impose democracy, it gets too expensive to win a war.  I’d prefer a green energy "Apollo program" more than a temporary boost the Raytheon stock price from an extra DOD order.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Threshkin on January 10, 2020, 04:48:17 PM

Quote from: desk_jockey on January 10, 2020, 03:49:56 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 08, 2020, 05:51:57 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 08, 2020, 03:43:33 PM

Wars might trigger a short term correction (buying opportunity) but they are usually a great economic stimulus too.. WW2 was arguably the spending lube that got the US economy moving again.

I've heard that and believe it.  Wouldn't the same amount of spending on stuff like high speed trains, rebuilding interstate highways, water reclamation projects and even trips to Mars also act as a spending lube?  These would have the added benefit of actually doing some good.

War is a great economic stimulus in the same way that breaking a shop window is economic stimulus.  The shop owner must spend money to replace the window, so that could be considered economic stimulus even though he could have used the money for expansion instead.    The UK won WW2, but damn if they didn’t suffer later trying to pay down their war debt. 

Wars were better stimulus back in the good old days when a country could keep the land and goods that it seized.  Now in these unfortunate modern times when one has to rebuild everything and try to impose democracy, it gets too expensive to win a war.  I’d prefer a green energy "Apollo program" more than a temporary boost the Raytheon stock price from an extra DOD order.

Well said DJ.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: itchyfeet on January 10, 2020, 09:41:50 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 09, 2020, 01:21:40 PM

Checking in from St Thomas.  Had a swim at the beach in Megan's Bay, it was lovely.  We're back on board the  Norwegian Dawn.  Catamaran sail tomorrow in Antigua.  Such a miserable life, oh checked the market after 4 days at sea.  Cha-Ching we aren't spending nearly fast enough to keep up with the increases.   Time to go enjoy our adult beverages package.  Bateaux out...

Haha. Love it. Living the Baller life...

Meanwhile, back in the salt mines, DW and I have started our new year working out how this year of transition to FIRE will play out. All very exciting..

The only caveat is that if my employer offers a job to me back in Australia (which it appears they are likely to) I could take it for a couple of years to assist the transition home, but I will negotiate a few months gap between finishing up here and starting there just to recharge the batteries for the final push.

Irrespective, we are repatriating this year and we are both pumped to be heading home.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 11, 2020, 03:32:39 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 10, 2020, 02:40:06 PM

An acquaintance who works at a local bank said that for the last three months the Federal Reserve has essentially done another Quantitative Easing, and it would be called QE 4, but it hasn't been given a name. The balance sheet of the Fed is now back to being as high with treasury bonds (and possibly mortgage backed securities too?) as it has ever been.

I was aware that the Fed lowered interest rates three times in 2019, but I wasn't aware of the Quantitative easing.

The cause for this easing was some liquidity crisis with some banks that were having some problems, SoftBank, and Deutsche Bank, and maybe a couple of others, according to this banker.
Not sure why these banks were in this liquidity crisis.  Not clear how the quantitative easing helps these banks.
The banker said the QE is what is sending stocks higher.

Thats interesting, thanks for sharing! but yet scary for many reasons that that could be going on again and not hearing about it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: chasesfish on January 11, 2020, 04:56:44 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 11, 2020, 03:32:39 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 10, 2020, 02:40:06 PM

An acquaintance who works at a local bank said that for the last three months the Federal Reserve has essentially done another Quantitative Easing, and it would be called QE 4, but it hasn't been given a name. The balance sheet of the Fed is now back to being as high with treasury bonds (and possibly mortgage backed securities too?) as it has ever been.

I was aware that the Fed lowered interest rates three times in 2019, but I wasn't aware of the Quantitative easing.

The cause for this easing was some liquidity crisis with some banks that were having some problems, SoftBank, and Deutsche Bank, and maybe a couple of others, according to this banker.
Not sure why these banks were in this liquidity crisis.  Not clear how the quantitative easing helps these banks.
The banker said the QE is what is sending stocks higher.

Thats interesting, thanks for sharing! but yet scary for many reasons that that could be going on again and not hearing about it.

Not a rumor.  Here's the chart from the Federal Reserve that shows what they're doing.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/bst_recenttrends.htm

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: jeroly on January 11, 2020, 07:30:40 AM

The OP conflated expansion of the money supply and increases in assets held by the Treasury in pursuit of an interest rate target that could also be associated with quantitative easing.

The Treasury has eased many times.  Historically it has eased with specific interest rate targets.  In quantitative easing, it doesn't target an interest rate but rather sets a specific amount of bills and bonds that it will purchase (The Treasury can do one but not both of interest rate / money supply targeting,) .

AFAIK the Fed is not doing a QE but has rather been targeting a lower interest range, which generally requires purchases of Treasuries.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 11, 2020, 10:37:02 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 11, 2020, 07:30:40 AM

The OP conflated expansion of the money supply and increases in assets held by the Treasury in pursuit of an interest rate target that could also be associated with quantitative easing.

The Treasury has eased many times.  Historically it has eased with specific interest rate targets.  In quantitative easing, it doesn't target an interest rate but rather sets a specific amount of bills and bonds that it will purchase (The Treasury can do one but not both of interest rate / money supply targeting,) .

AFAIK the Fed is not doing a QE but has rather been targeting a lower interest range, which generally requires purchases of Treasuries.

Quote from: chasesfish on January 11, 2020, 04:56:44 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 11, 2020, 03:32:39 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on January 10, 2020, 02:40:06 PM

An acquaintance who works at a local bank said that for the last three months the Federal Reserve has essentially done another Quantitative Easing, and it would be called QE 4, but it hasn't been given a name. The balance sheet of the Fed is now back to being as high with treasury bonds (and possibly mortgage backed securities too?) as it has ever been.

I was aware that the Fed lowered interest rates three times in 2019, but I wasn't aware of the Quantitative easing.

The cause for this easing was some liquidity crisis with some banks that were having some problems, SoftBank, and Deutsche Bank, and maybe a couple of others, according to this banker.
Not sure why these banks were in this liquidity crisis.  Not clear how the quantitative easing helps these banks.
The banker said the QE is what is sending stocks higher.

Thats interesting, thanks for sharing! but yet scary for many reasons that that could be going on again and not hearing about it.

Not a rumor.  Here's the chart from the Federal Reserve that shows what they're doing.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/bst_recenttrends.htm

Interesting stuff..Thanks for sharing

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on January 11, 2020, 10:50:26 AM

Bateaux checking in from Martinique.  All is good.   The volcano is behaving itself and the beer is cold!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: dominikm on January 12, 2020, 02:31:25 AM

This thread is awesome! I thought MMM was full of people who wanted to retire early on $500K and spend $25K a year.

I just started my journal in the journal section for my road to $3MM. Starting with $5K in the bank as of the end of the month. After years or spending and having fun it's time to take this serious. I've got a 7 year plan and that puts me at 40 when I retire. I've got the skill set to do it from the last 10 years run online businesses but I've always blow the money.

And like some have mentioned in this thread they might not stop. Once I hit my $3MM I'll keep my businesses running and just take a step back. Maybe that means a pay cut but if I can systemise correctly it shouldn't be an issue. Then, from 40 to 50 I should bank another $5MM staying on top of things. So without any investment just living off 4% I'll have my $10K/m till I'm 100 or so. And if I sell off all my businesses after I'm 50 for a lump sum it will be a lot more.

Again, great to see like minded people here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: pecunia on January 12, 2020, 09:22:59 AM

$5,000 to 10 million.  I like it.  It's not quite a rags to riches story, but still a good one.  Unless, you live in your car.  Then, it can be rags to riches.  Good Luck with it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on January 12, 2020, 10:46:46 AM

Woo Hoo this is the party thread.  Poping a top in St. Kitts.  Cheers!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Dicey on January 12, 2020, 04:24:22 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 12, 2020, 09:22:59 AM

$5,000 to 10 million.  I like it.  It's not quite a rags to riches story, but still a good one.  Unless, you live in your car.  Then, it can be rags to riches.  Good Luck with it.

I'm going to get some popcorn...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on January 13, 2020, 01:09:38 PM

Final check in from San Juan, Puerto Rico.  Next stop Tampa and the Florida house.  Gonna see a few manatee then back to work in Louisiana.  Geaux LSU Tigers!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: 2sk22 on January 13, 2020, 04:27:34 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 13, 2020, 01:09:38 PM

Final check in from San Juan, Puerto Rico.  Next stop Tampa and the Florida house.  Gonna see a few manatee then back to work in Louisiana.  Geaux LSU Tigers!

Looks like you're really enjoying your Caribbean jaunt!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Car Jack on January 14, 2020, 08:18:51 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 11, 2020, 10:50:26 AM

Bateaux checking in from Martinique.  All is good.   The volcano is behaving itself and the beer is cold!

I read this with the cadence of Beastie Boys Paul Revere.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: dominikm on January 15, 2020, 06:31:25 AM

Quote from: pecunia on January 12, 2020, 09:22:59 AM

$5,000 to 10 million.  I like it.  It's not quite a rags to riches story, but still a good one.  Unless, you live in your car.  Then, it can be rags to riches.  Good Luck with it.

Thanks! Goal #1 is to hit $10K/m first. Then I'm off to the races.

A bit more of a positive reply vs what was posted on my journal. But, at the same time I get why people would be like 'ok here we go' if they see a post like that go up and don't know my full background even with my long journal post.

A long road ahead but I'll get there!

RE the car comment. You just sparked a memory from years ago. I actually remember someone posting on Facebook about how he went and slept on the street for 'one' single night so in the future he can say that 'he came from the street' or something like that. Haha! So silly!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 15, 2020, 07:36:18 AM

Quote from: dominikm on January 15, 2020, 06:31:25 AM

Quote from: pecunia on January 12, 2020, 09:22:59 AM

$5,000 to 10 million.  I like it.  It's not quite a rags to riches story, but still a good one.  Unless, you live in your car.  Then, it can be rags to riches.  Good Luck with it.

Thanks! Goal #1 is to hit $10K/m first. Then I'm off to the races.

A bit more of a positive reply vs what was posted on my journal. But, at the same time I get why people would be like 'ok here we go' if they see a post like that go up and don't know my full background even with my long journal post.

A long road ahead but I'll get there!

RE the car comment. You just sparked a memory from years ago. I actually remember someone posting on Facebook about how he went and slept on the street for 'one' single night so in the future he can say that 'he came from the street' or something like that. Haha! So silly!

$10k/mo requires $3M NW which is very attainable since this thread is full of folks that are around that level.  We all started with basically nothing and made it, can't see why you wouldn't as long as you keep your eye on the prize!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Exflyboy on January 15, 2020, 11:30:59 AM

@EscapeVelocity2020 Actually I take "small" issue with the statement that $10k/month requires $3M NW.

I think this is glossed over a lot but honestly, if a part of NW is tied up in your house then it cannot be used to calculate your 4% spend. Sure you can argue your house might be sold for a higher value but on average houses do not return what the stock market does.. and before you sell it its costing you in RE taxes, maintenance etc.

So while I agree with the 4% rule.. it has to be 4% invested in the market, not net worth.. OK flame suit is on..:)


Incidently my $400k property where my house sit also generates about $20k in rent after expanses.. I.e a 5% return... So I guess I just kinda skewered my own argument..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: JoJoP on January 15, 2020, 11:49:59 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 15, 2020, 11:30:59 AM

@EscapeVelocity2020 Actually I take "small" issue with the statement that $10k/month requires $3M NW.

I think this is glossed over a lot but honestly, if a part of NW is tied up in your house then it cannot be used to calculate your 4% spend. Sure you can argue your house might be sold for a higher value but on average houses do not return what the stock market does.. and before you sell it its costing you in RE taxes, maintenance etc.

So while I agree with the 4% rule.. it has to be 4% invested in the market, not net worth.. OK flame suit is on..:)


Incidently my $400k property where my house sit also generates about $20k in rent after expanses.. I.e a 5% return... So I guess I just kinda skewered my own argument..:)

Hey, nudge nudge...you with the skewered argument and 20K a year coming in from a 400K property, that's nothing to sneeze at... I need to remind ya'll when you talk to the newcomers that the stock market is not the only path to freedom.  I'm a big believer in multiple streams of income, so have rentals (mostly), stock market and carrying First TD notes in my portfolio.

 I have 10 paid for rentals generating 18K+ a month and they function as a very part time job for us.  Yes, property ownership involves paying taxes and insurance, so that 18K isn't all gravy.  But there's plenty of gravy.   Me and my gravy just got back from Hawaii, and a couple more trips are coming right up back to back to back,  so I'm feeling the FI vibe along with Bateaux. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 15, 2020, 11:56:39 AM

@Exflyboy Good points and it's also a good thing to think about.  For instance, there are a lot of variables and games to be played in ER when it comes to managing expenses (healthcare costs from state to state, property and sales taxes, downsizing or outright becoming a renter...) as well as matching withdrawal amounts and pre/post tax locations to tax efficiency (staying below the healthcare subsidy cliff, the capital gains tax cliff, etc.) so one person's 10k/mo might buy the same quality of life as someone's 7k/mo in a LCOL area and giving away less to the tax and health insurance man...  There are lots of post-FIRE threads about folks finding out they can live on less than they thought and that they only use the 4% rule as a guideline. 

BTW - Hope the hand/wrist is doing well!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Exflyboy on January 15, 2020, 12:10:36 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 15, 2020, 11:56:39 AM

@Exflyboy Good points and it's also a good thing to think about.  For instance, there are a lot of variables and games to be played in ER when it comes to managing expenses (healthcare costs from state to state, property and sales taxes, downsizing or outright becoming a renter...) as well as matching withdrawal amounts and pre/post tax locations to tax efficiency (staying below the healthcare subsidy cliff, the capital gains tax cliff, etc.) so one person's 10k/mo might buy the same quality of life as someone's 7k/mo in a LCOL area and giving away less to the tax and health insurance man...  There are lots of post-FIRE threads about folks finding out they can live on less than they thought and that they only use the 4% rule as a guideline. 

BTW - Hope the hand/wrist is doing well!

Funny you should mention games.. DW was asking me about the complex dance of income vs insurance subsidies and after a 5 minute explanation she said.. "How on Earth do you keep track of these variables?".

The answer of course is.. You just do.. Or you don't and end up spending more money. If you have an excess of money then of course you might not care anyway.

Being wired the way I am.. threading that needle of providing sufficient income while paying $zero Fed taxes and almost $zero for HC premiums is like throwing a chicken carcass into a pond filled with alligators..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: jeroly on January 15, 2020, 12:46:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 15, 2020, 11:30:59 AM

@EscapeVelocity2020 Actually I take "small" issue with the statement that $10k/month requires $3M NW.

I think this is glossed over a lot but honestly, if a part of NW is tied up in your house then it cannot be used to calculate your 4% spend. Sure you can argue your house might be sold for a higher value but on average houses do not return what the stock market does.. and before you sell it its costing you in RE taxes, maintenance etc.

So while I agree with the 4% rule.. it has to be 4% invested in the market, not net worth.. OK flame suit is on..:)


Incidently my $400k property where my house sit also generates about $20k in rent after expanses.. I.e a 5% return... So I guess I just kinda skewered my own argument..:)

I believe that the OP rents, so this point is moot.

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 15, 2020, 07:36:18 AM

$10k/mo requires $3M NW which is very attainable since this thread is full of folks that are around that level.  We all started with basically nothing and made it, can't see why you wouldn't as long as you keep your eye on the prize!

The problem is that this guy fully expects to do it in seven years starting from virtually nothing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 15, 2020, 01:58:44 PM

Quote from: jeroly on January 15, 2020, 12:46:21 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 15, 2020, 07:36:18 AM

$10k/mo requires $3M NW which is very attainable since this thread is full of folks that are around that level.  We all started with basically nothing and made it, can't see why you wouldn't as long as you keep your eye on the prize!

The problem is that this guy fully expects to do it in seven years starting from virtually nothing.

Yeah, 7 years to $3M without currently something that would get him to $1M in, say 3 years makes it sound a little far-fetched.  I would also worry about sustainability - better to get to $1M in 7 years but enjoy the ride and want to keep going (if the plan is $3M) than burn yourself out and be miserable.

Edit to add - From his initial post, I got the impression he had experience in an online business that made lots of money, but he was spending it all.  He seemed confident that he could make plenty of money...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: pecunia on January 15, 2020, 03:41:39 PM

Another Record High

https://www.investors.com/market-trend/stock-market-today/dow-jones-leads-stock-market-to-new-record-high-ahead-of-china-deal/ (https://www.investors.com/market-trend/stock-market-today/dow-jones-leads-stock-market-to-new-record-high-ahead-of-china-deal/)

Uuh, so just what is a stock market bubble?

Is there a bubble?

https://www.macrotrends.net/2577/sp-500-pe-ratio-price-to-earnings-chart (https://www.macrotrends.net/2577/sp-500-pe-ratio-price-to-earnings-chart)

For people planning to go from $5,000 to $10,000,000 - these may be the days to do it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: 2sk22 on January 16, 2020, 02:54:20 AM

Quote from: pecunia on January 15, 2020, 03:41:39 PM

Uuh, so just what is a stock market bubble?

For people planning to go from $5,000 to $10,000,000 - these may be the days to do it.

I do think about this too but then, I can re-assure myself that we have four years of expenses in cash available :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Dicey on January 16, 2020, 04:46:16 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 15, 2020, 12:46:21 PM

The problem is that this guy fully expects to do it in seven years starting from virtually nothing.

Then there's the fact that he has only managed to hang on to $5k of all the money he's ever earned. Perhaps he should add YMOYL to his reading list. Seems he has a spending problem AND a savings problem.

Funny he chose this thread as the appropriate place to bitch about the responses he received over on his case study.

I wonder what advice the hard working  "Saving to $10k" crowd would have for him?

If it walks like a troll duck...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on January 16, 2020, 07:06:14 AM

Whoo.  Back in Tampa and time to diet.  Glad I brought my fat pants.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: dominikm on January 16, 2020, 07:14:57 AM

Haha. This is fun getting talked about! And this is why I'm here to move on from an old and shitty situation that I created. Learn, evolve as a person and get advice from a community of others. Making the cash was never really the issue. I've done well in the past. The issue was geared towards spending to much and not saving enough.

Quote from: Dicey on January 16, 2020, 04:46:16 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 15, 2020, 12:46:21 PM

The problem is that this guy fully expects to do it in seven years starting from virtually nothing.

Then there's the fact that he has only managed to hang on to $5k of all the money he's ever earned. Perhaps he should add YMOYL to his reading list. Seems he has a spending problem AND a savings problem.

Funny he chose this thread as the appropriate place to bitch about the responses he received over on his case study.

I wonder what advice the hard working  "Saving to $10k" crowd would have for him?

If it walks like a troll duck...

Your Money or Your Life. I Googled it and is it the book by Vicki Robin? I'm an open book and want to learn and improve and if this would be a good read I'll get it.

There is also more to that story that I don't want to really go into much detail. In short there was a period of time I kept getting sick so I was just in maintenance mode making my few grand a month due to serious lack of energy from being sick. That's all sorted now and I'm all better. When the last business wrapped up I had a good chunk of savings that I lived off while I had a break for a while from work and that I used while I got my new income stream going, that I've still got now. Everything added up. Yes, $5K savings as the last two or so years have been in that maintenance mode making a few grand a month, basically the cost of living. Recently I started my new method that's scaling fast so things are moving forward quick now :)

It was hardly bitching also haha. All I said was thanks for the positive comment vs the comment another made who doesn't know my history. And again I get that. No dramas there. As, in reality no one knows strangers pasts online right.

I was chatting to a buddy the other day about my plan I've known for ten years as he's seen what I've done in the past as I've taken it very high and he does very well himself and he's confident I'll get there. I just need to get on top of the saving side vs spending as I make it and it comes in. 2020 coming around and realising I'm not 21 any more has been a big wake up call. So I have no doubt I'll be ok, progress and grow out of that shit mindset :)

What’s the save to $10k crowd about? Or is that a joke lol. I’m so green I don’t know if you’re being serious haha

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 15, 2020, 01:58:44 PM

Quote from: jeroly on January 15, 2020, 12:46:21 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 15, 2020, 07:36:18 AM

$10k/mo requires $3M NW which is very attainable since this thread is full of folks that are around that level.  We all started with basically nothing and made it, can't see why you wouldn't as long as you keep your eye on the prize!

The problem is that this guy fully expects to do it in seven years starting from virtually nothing.

Yeah, 7 years to $3M without currently something that would get him to $1M in, say 3 years makes it sound a little far-fetched.  I would also worry about sustainability - better to get to $1M in 7 years but enjoy the ride and want to keep going (if the plan is $3M) than burn yourself out and be miserable.

Edit to add - From his initial post, I got the impression he had experience in an online business that made lots of money, but he was spending it all.  He seemed confident that he could make plenty of money...

Yes, correct. Making the money isn't the issue. I already have a few things underway.

$3M in 7 is a good goal for me. From what I'm seeing with the planning and getting one method to $10K/m that's already $720K in 6 years. Year one I'll take those profits and invest into other business ideas and expand on the current ones. So getting to $1M isn't really that big of a goal. I do focus as much as I can on getting VAs in the Philippines to work my methods as much as possible so once that $10K/m is hit I just manage a little. That's a lot of free time wasted if I just go for $1M. It doesn't fell right. It seems way to small.

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 15, 2020, 07:36:18 AM

Quote from: dominikm on January 15, 2020, 06:31:25 AM

Quote from: pecunia on January 12, 2020, 09:22:59 AM

$5,000 to 10 million.  I like it.  It's not quite a rags to riches story, but still a good one.  Unless, you live in your car.  Then, it can be rags to riches.  Good Luck with it.

Thanks! Goal #1 is to hit $10K/m first. Then I'm off to the races.

A bit more of a positive reply vs what was posted on my journal. But, at the same time I get why people would be like 'ok here we go' if they see a post like that go up and don't know my full background even with my long journal post.

A long road ahead but I'll get there!

RE the car comment. You just sparked a memory from years ago. I actually remember someone posting on Facebook about how he went and slept on the street for 'one' single night so in the future he can say that 'he came from the street' or something like that. Haha! So silly!

$10k/mo requires $3M NW which is very attainable since this thread is full of folks that are around that level.  We all started with basically nothing and made it, can't see why you wouldn't as long as you keep your eye on the prize!

Thanks for the encouragement. It does seems like there are two crowds here. One that says it can't be done and one that says it can. I guess I'll see where I end up over the years. But I'm pretty confident.

Quote from: jeroly on January 15, 2020, 12:46:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 15, 2020, 11:30:59 AM

@EscapeVelocity2020 Actually I take "small" issue with the statement that $10k/month requires $3M NW.

I think this is glossed over a lot but honestly, if a part of NW is tied up in your house then it cannot be used to calculate your 4% spend. Sure you can argue your house might be sold for a higher value but on average houses do not return what the stock market does.. and before you sell it its costing you in RE taxes, maintenance etc.

So while I agree with the 4% rule.. it has to be 4% invested in the market, not net worth.. OK flame suit is on..:)


Incidently my $400k property where my house sit also generates about $20k in rent after expanses.. I.e a 5% return... So I guess I just kinda skewered my own argument..:)

I believe that the OP rents, so this point is moot.

Correct, I rent and I honestly don't plan to get a place for a long time to come. I go into detail about this in my journal. If I do get a place it will be something about 70K max. 100K if I fully deck the place out. In summary a nice apartment in a ski hill town that had mass over building the mid 2000s. So now the really good apartment complexes that did cost you $400K to buy now sell for $30K. And the penthouses in those buildings go for 100K or so.

Quote from: JoJoP on January 15, 2020, 11:49:59 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 15, 2020, 11:30:59 AM

@EscapeVelocity2020 Actually I take "small" issue with the statement that $10k/month requires $3M NW.

I think this is glossed over a lot but honestly, if a part of NW is tied up in your house then it cannot be used to calculate your 4% spend. Sure you can argue your house might be sold for a higher value but on average houses do not return what the stock market does.. and before you sell it its costing you in RE taxes, maintenance etc.

So while I agree with the 4% rule.. it has to be 4% invested in the market, not net worth.. OK flame suit is on..:)


Incidently my $400k property where my house sit also generates about $20k in rent after expanses.. I.e a 5% return... So I guess I just kinda skewered my own argument..:)

Hey, nudge nudge...you with the skewered argument and 20K a year coming in from a 400K property, that's nothing to sneeze at... I need to remind ya'll when you talk to the newcomers that the stock market is not the only path to freedom.  I'm a big believer in multiple streams of income, so have rentals (mostly), stock market and carrying First TD notes in my portfolio.

 I have 10 paid for rentals generating 18K+ a month and they function as a very part time job for us.  Yes, property ownership involves paying taxes and insurance, so that 18K isn't all gravy.  But there's plenty of gravy.   Me and my gravy just got back from Hawaii, and a couple more trips are coming right up back to back to back,  so I'm feeling the FI vibe along with Bateaux. 

Have you thought about swapping some to Airbnb? I've seen some crazy numbers done with properties when people get Airbnb right. Managed right with a small team to deal with issues. Customer services fully outsourced. There is lots out there about doing it. Not just slapping up a listing and hoping for the best. It needs to be done right.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Car Jack on January 16, 2020, 08:53:56 AM

Quote from: dominikm on January 16, 2020, 07:14:57 AM

What’s the save to $10k crowd about? Or is that a joke lol. I’m so green I don’t know if you’re being serious haha

Here's the topic:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/saving-to-$10k/

I think it is indeed appropriate for you to go there with your story.  Working up to $10k saved is a reasonable first step.  There are a number of "race to" threads in this section.  It makes the most sense to start in a thread that matches where you are.  This one specifically defines this as "you already have at least $2M of liquid investments and are targeting $3M". 

There's lots of good information in the MMM forums.  I'd suggest lots of reading.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: pecunia on January 16, 2020, 09:13:41 AM

"This one specifically defines this as "you already have at least $2M of liquid investments and are targeting $3M".

We're going for 4 now!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: jdfergason on January 16, 2020, 09:17:28 AM

Quote from: pecunia on January 16, 2020, 09:13:41 AM

"This one specifically defines this as "you already have at least $2M of liquid investments and are targeting $3M".

We're going for 4 now!

I still miss the "...and beyond!"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: BeanCounter on January 16, 2020, 09:53:30 AM

I think I’m still in shock. Our invested assets increased $575k in 2019. Only $45k was additional contributions. This is after donating $20k to charity.
We also spent $80k on a home renovation but then managed to save another $50k in cash (not include above)

And I have 17 more weeks of work. Give or take how it goes when I put my notice in.

It’s all too good to be true.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Bateaux on January 16, 2020, 10:44:37 AM

Quote from: pecunia on January 16, 2020, 09:13:41 AM

"This one specifically defines this as "you already have at least $2M of liquid investments and are targeting $3M".

We're going for 4 now!

Considering the stretch to 3M.  We're running towards the 2.5 number really quickly.  Certainly going to wait out 2020 working and will test the waters in about 12 months.  We're back from the 11 day cruise and relaxing in 80 degree weather by our Florida home pool.  Working is certainly getting low on priority list.  Just got a text asking if I can come back to work a day early next week.  I said NOPE!   I've got a full bar here in Florida that needs my attention a few more days!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: Car Jack on January 16, 2020, 11:24:49 AM

Quote from: carstenjames on January 16, 2020, 09:17:28 AM

Quote from: pecunia on January 16, 2020, 09:13:41 AM

"This one specifically defines this as "you already have at least $2M of liquid investments and are targeting $3M".

We're going for 4 now!

I still miss the "...and beyond!"

Back by popular demand.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 16, 2020, 12:17:12 PM

It’s looking like Jan will be another of those +$100k increase to net worth months..... (yes only AUD funny money)...

My first house cost less than that and I took out a 30 year mortgage to buy it .... what was once a 30 year saving goal is now a 30 day blink in time....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 16, 2020, 12:26:52 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 16, 2020, 11:24:49 AM

Quote from: carstenjames on January 16, 2020, 09:17:28 AM

Quote from: pecunia on January 16, 2020, 09:13:41 AM

"This one specifically defines this as "you already have at least $2M of liquid investments and are targeting $3M".

We're going for 4 now!

I still miss the "...and beyond!"

Back by popular demand.....

Yay!  Beyond is back, back to beyond!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 16, 2020, 01:37:54 PM

I never felt poor until I met YOU PEOPLE...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 16, 2020, 02:21:02 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 16, 2020, 12:17:12 PM

It’s looking like Jan will be another of those +$100k increase to net worth months..... (yes only AUD funny money)...

My first house cost less than that and I took out a 30 year mortgage to buy it .... what was once a 30 year saving goal is now a 30 day blink in time....

Thanks for that , puts it all in perspective.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 16, 2020, 02:29:14 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 15, 2020, 03:41:39 PM

Another Record High
Uuh, so just what is a stock market bubble?

Yeah, Alan Greenspan would be coming up with new ways to say 'irrational exuberance' at this point. 

Not much you can do in a bubble though.  You can sell and watch the market run away from you or you can buy and hope to get back out before the sell off.  I'm content to try not to be too sad when the latest paper gains are vaporized...  in the meantime, life is pretty darn good.  Keep a balanced asset allocation and at least you can feel like you did your best when fear takes hold again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 16, 2020, 05:51:27 PM

Yet another record high

https://www.ccn.com/dow-smashes-record-as-animal-spirits-seize-the-u-s-stock-market/ (https://www.ccn.com/dow-smashes-record-as-animal-spirits-seize-the-u-s-stock-market/)

This headline gives a nod to John Maynard Keynes, "animal spirits."

Yeh - That is a good phrase, "irrational Exuberance."   Mr. Greenspan said it during the dot com bubble in the1990s.

Maybe the animal spirits will warn us before the bubble bursts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 17, 2020, 04:07:05 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 16, 2020, 01:37:54 PM

I never felt poor until I met YOU PEOPLE...:)

Just making our hay while the sun shines.  We could all be crying and gnashing our teeth in a blink.  I don't know what it feels like to lose a million dollars in the stock market.  Some of us will eventually.  Till then roar on 20'$

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 17, 2020, 04:23:12 AM

Losing $1 million would be something to talk about.

But last year my house in Sydney dropped $300K and it didn’t really matter. The tenants kept paying their rent. In fact I increased the rent.

I’m really not sure that a drop of $1million would shake me much.

I guess you are contemplating a 30% loss.

On the positive side I’d still have 70%

.... and that last $1million only took about 3 years to build. Easy come easy go.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 17, 2020, 05:42:23 AM

I have been investing steadily on autopilot since 1994 - right through two bubbles: the tech bubble in 1999 and the housing bubble. Although I'm definitely getting a mild sense of dejavu, I don't plan to change my strategy now. I'm content with my 60/40 AA and am sticking to it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 17, 2020, 06:34:24 AM

I recently switched my total AA from 80/20 to 70/30 where it will likely stay because I hit my minimum FIRE goal.  I’m not likely to drop further as I will have a pension in 66 months that if taken as part of an AA probably would drop me to at least 50/50.  I probably could keep everything liquid in stocks but I think that would cause me more anxiety than it’d be worth.  And yet with this market my investments this week will “pay me” more than my salary.  My god it’s crazy good. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on January 17, 2020, 07:04:37 AM

I'm at 50/50.  When stocks go up, I see my equity go up and am happy.  When stocks go down, but bonds go up, I look at my bonds and am happy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on January 17, 2020, 07:20:28 AM

My current asset allocation is probably 65/35. I don't check it frequently and don't care about a small range of perturbations. My current focus is fining ways to make my life happy (by spending some money if needed).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 17, 2020, 07:23:13 AM

We're not really worried about a drop in stock market prices.   Our income streams are pretty diversified and other than the next 2-3 years while we pay off the home we bought yesterday, we don't even need to spend the RMDs from our IRAs and 401Ks.   As it is, now we need 2/3rds the RMDs from the 2 accounts that are subject to them (which are only about 40% of our holdings).

Once the new house is paid off (or if the market tanks before we sell our old home and one of our flips), we'll have a surplus and be buying stocks and bonds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on January 17, 2020, 08:43:18 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 17, 2020, 07:23:13 AM

We're not really worried about a drop in stock market prices.   Our income streams are pretty diversified and other than the next 2-3 years while we pay off the home we bought yesterday,

Congrats on the new house!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 17, 2020, 08:47:51 AM

Quote from: carstenjames on January 17, 2020, 08:43:18 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 17, 2020, 07:23:13 AM

We're not really worried about a drop in stock market prices.   Our income streams are pretty diversified and other than the next 2-3 years while we pay off the home we bought yesterday,

Congrats on the new house!

If it hadn't been for what we learned from MMM and others in the FIRE world, we would never have been able to afford it, much less pay it off in about 2 years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 17, 2020, 11:33:11 AM

Lately, I've been thinking a lot about increasing our equities exposure.  It's sort of weird (to me at least) that the more we have, the less of it we need, as a percentage. Therefore, it's okay if our money grows, but it doesn't kill us if it drops. Like @SwordGuy, we have multiple income streams. Our cash stash*, rentals and DH's Defined Benefit Pension kind of mimic bonds, so why not put the rest into equities? There, it can grow long term and earn more money to give a portion to our heirs, and an even bigger slug to charity. Something to think about. It flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but that's the way mustachians do things, right?

*We flip houses for fun and profit occasionally, so we keep an insane (by mustachian standards) amount of moolah in plain old ready cash. Not under the mattress, of course, but in liquid accounts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 17, 2020, 01:54:41 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 17, 2020, 11:33:11 AM

Lately, I've been thinking a lot about increasing our equities exposure.  It's sort of weird (to me at least) that the more we have, the less of it we need, as a percentage. Therefore, it's okay if our money grows, but it doesn't kill us if it drops. Like @SwordGuy, we have multiple income streams. Our cash stash*, rentals and DH's Defined Benefit Pension kind of mimic bonds, so why not put the rest into equities? There, it can grow long term and earn more money to give a portion to our heirs, and an even bigger slug to charity. Something to think about. It flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but that's the way mustachians do things, right?

*We flip houses for fun and profit occasionally, so we keep an insane (by mustachian standards) amount of moolah in plain old ready cash. Not under the mattress, of course, but in liquid accounts.

Doesn't seem dumb at all.  Once your needs are met, you can take a bigger risk with the rest of it.  You are already covered.  Roll those dice.  If you don't come out on top, you've at least had the courage to play the game.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 17, 2020, 04:48:55 PM

Yup I been thinking the same thing. Even if the market took a 50% dump we'd be perfectly OK.

Heck if we drew our pensions and continued taking rent we'd have more income than total expenditure in our most expensive year of FIRE so far.. It would not be very tax efficient (and definitely not healthcare subsidy efficient) to do so however.

Makes me wonder if our 75/25 (invested portfolio) is a bit conservative however.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 18, 2020, 11:32:39 AM

You can roll the dice, but looking at the recent increases if you hold off a bit before rolling the dice, you may have better effective yields.

I know.  I know.  You can't time the market, but look at that steep hill.  I visualize someone standing on the top of a step ladder reaching out.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart (https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart)

I thought the same thing last year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 18, 2020, 04:50:38 PM

Oh totally I'd wait for a significant pullback before rolling more into stocks.

I was about to roll to 85/15 last year at 20% down on Christmas eve.. Literally was about to pull the trigger and then it went back up..

Coulda, woulda, shoulda..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 20, 2020, 05:20:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 18, 2020, 04:50:38 PM

Oh totally I'd wait for a significant pullback before rolling more into stocks.

I was about to roll to 85/15 last year at 20% down on Christmas eve.. Literally was about to pull the trigger and then it went back up..

Coulda, woulda, shoulda..:)

Quote from: pecunia on January 18, 2020, 11:32:39 AM

You can roll the dice, but looking at the recent increases if you hold off a bit before rolling the dice, you may have better effective yields.


+3 I feel the same. No reason imo to rush to put $ in at this point. Im a bit cash heavy myself but going to live on that and withdraw less until we get a pull back.
I know.  I know.  You can't time the market, but look at that steep hill.  I visualize someone standing on the top of a step ladder reaching out.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart (https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart)

I thought the same thing last year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 21, 2020, 03:39:21 AM

You know everyone always use the 50% drop like the bottom of a crisis and I suppose that is based on some historical reasoning. And while I think of think of our net worth in the same way because lets face it you have to set some perimeters I cant help but to wonder with such a run up if realistically the drop couldn't be even a lot worse. Typically at some point money would come pouring in but has anyone else thought perhaps the same thing? I thought I heard too less people are investing in the stock market because they don't trust it and I want to say mostly millennial's. Not sure if that's true or not. Just curious what others have thought about that if at all because did people really think the market would be chasing Dow 30k if not more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 21, 2020, 04:52:08 AM

Sir:  I grew up in the Arctic Midwest where I had to walk 5 miles to school uphill each way in below zero weather through 4 ft snowdrifts.  And yes I was taught that this stock market thing is a big gamble when I was a kid.  There were still some 1930s people around and they had unkind things to say about it.

I see the money grow and grow but if it seems to good to be true,.......

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 21, 2020, 05:03:00 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 21, 2020, 03:39:21 AM

You know everyone always use the 50% drop like the bottom of a crisis and I suppose that is based on some historical reasoning. And while I think of think of our net worth in the same way because lets face it you have to set some perimeters I cant help but to wonder with such a run up if realistically the drop couldn't be even a lot worse. Typically at some point money would come pouring in but has anyone else thought perhaps the same thing? I thought I heard too less people are investing in the stock market because they don't trust it and I want to say mostly millennial's. Not sure if that's true or not. Just curious what others have thought about that if at all because did people really think the market would be chasing Dow 30k if not more.

After the crash of ‘29, the market dropped about 89% before bottoming out about three years later.

Despite that, if you had maintained a 50/50 asset allocation, you would still have broken even after ten years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 21, 2020, 12:12:16 PM

Quote from: jeroly on January 21, 2020, 05:03:00 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 21, 2020, 03:39:21 AM

You know everyone always use the 50% drop like the bottom of a crisis and I suppose that is based on some historical reasoning. And while I think of think of our net worth in the same way because lets face it you have to set some perimeters I cant help but to wonder with such a run up if realistically the drop couldn't be even a lot worse. Typically at some point money would come pouring in but has anyone else thought perhaps the same thing? I thought I heard too less people are investing in the stock market because they don't trust it and I want to say mostly millennial's. Not sure if that's true or not. Just curious what others have thought about that if at all because did people really think the market would be chasing Dow 30k if not more.

After the crash of ‘29, the market dropped about 89% before bottoming out about three years later.

Despite that, if you had maintained a 50/50 asset allocation, you would still have broken even after ten years.

 Actually I have heard that prices of goods rapidly declined such that your spending power didn't go down quite as much. I believe that Great Depression was a 7 year event taking that into account.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: RWD on January 21, 2020, 12:49:54 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 21, 2020, 12:12:16 PM

Quote from: jeroly on January 21, 2020, 05:03:00 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 21, 2020, 03:39:21 AM

You know everyone always use the 50% drop like the bottom of a crisis and I suppose that is based on some historical reasoning. And while I think of think of our net worth in the same way because lets face it you have to set some perimeters I cant help but to wonder with such a run up if realistically the drop couldn't be even a lot worse. Typically at some point money would come pouring in but has anyone else thought perhaps the same thing? I thought I heard too less people are investing in the stock market because they don't trust it and I want to say mostly millennial's. Not sure if that's true or not. Just curious what others have thought about that if at all because did people really think the market would be chasing Dow 30k if not more.

After the crash of ‘29, the market dropped about 89% before bottoming out about three years later.

Despite that, if you had maintained a 50/50 asset allocation, you would still have broken even after ten years.

 Actually I have heard that prices of goods rapidly declined such that your spending power didn't go down quite as much. I believe that Great Depression was a 7 year event taking that into account.

Looks about right:
https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 21, 2020, 01:46:11 PM

Y'all are making it easy for me to go to work tonight.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 21, 2020, 03:31:07 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 21, 2020, 01:46:11 PM

Y'all are making it easy for me to go to work tonight.   

Quote from: RWD on January 21, 2020, 12:49:54 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 21, 2020, 12:12:16 PM

Quote from: jeroly on January 21, 2020, 05:03:00 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 21, 2020, 03:39:21 AM

You know everyone always use the 50% drop like the bottom of a crisis and I suppose that is based on some historical reasoning. And while I think of think of our net worth in the same way because lets face it you have to set some perimeters I cant help but to wonder with such a run up if realistically the drop couldn't be even a lot worse. Typically at some point money would come pouring in but has anyone else thought perhaps the same thing? I thought I heard too less people are investing in the stock market because they don't trust it and I want to say mostly millennial's. Not sure if that's true or not. Just curious what others have thought about that if at all because did people really think the market would be chasing Dow 30k if not more.

After the crash of ‘29, the market dropped about 89% before bottoming out about three years later.

Despite that, if you had maintained a 50/50 asset allocation, you would still have broken even after ten years.

 Actually I have heard that prices of goods rapidly declined such that your spending power didn't go down quite as much. I believe that Great Depression was a 7 year event taking that into account.

Looks about right:
https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/

Just a conversation thought. Thanks for the info!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on January 22, 2020, 03:58:23 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 17, 2020, 11:33:11 AM

Lately, I've been thinking a lot about increasing our equities exposure.  It's sort of weird (to me at least) that the more we have, the less of it we need, as a percentage. Therefore, it's okay if our money grows, but it doesn't kill us if it drops. Like @SwordGuy, we have multiple income streams. Our cash stash*, rentals and DH's Defined Benefit Pension kind of mimic bonds, so why not put the rest into equities? There, it can grow long term and earn more money to give a portion to our heirs, and an even bigger slug to charity. Something to think about. It flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but that's the way mustachians do things, right?

*We flip houses for fun and profit occasionally, so we keep an insane (by mustachian standards) amount of moolah in plain old ready cash. Not under the mattress, of course, but in liquid accounts.

That's been my thinking too.  The more you have, the more you can lean towards equities.  Btw, I noticed VIGAX gained over 37% for 2019.  After selling some more real estate I'm planning to buy some VIGAX.  It seems to prove the point about the unfair advantages Big Business has. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 23, 2020, 07:12:05 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 22, 2020, 03:58:23 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 17, 2020, 11:33:11 AM

Lately, I've been thinking a lot about increasing our equities exposure.  It's sort of weird (to me at least) that the more we have, the less of it we need, as a percentage. Therefore, it's okay if our money grows, but it doesn't kill us if it drops. Like @SwordGuy, we have multiple income streams. Our cash stash*, rentals and DH's Defined Benefit Pension kind of mimic bonds, so why not put the rest into equities? There, it can grow long term and earn more money to give a portion to our heirs, and an even bigger slug to charity. Something to think about. It flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but that's the way mustachians do things, right?

*We flip houses for fun and profit occasionally, so we keep an insane (by mustachian standards) amount of moolah in plain old ready cash. Not under the mattress, of course, but in liquid accounts.

That's been my thinking too.  The more you have, the more you can lean towards equities.  Btw, I noticed VIGAX gained over 37% for 2019.  After selling some more real estate I'm planning to buy some VIGAX.  It seems to prove the point about the unfair advantages Big Business has.

There's no doubt, by any historical measure, that there is some amount of risk in holding equities, so you just need to figure out your current assessment of willingness, need, and ability to expose yourself to risk. 

Having 'extra' lets you score high on the ability scale, but need is similarly low.  So it then comes down to willingness and I guess that comes down to your assessment of the risk...

Anyway, this Boglehead method provides a framework for thinking about changing an AA and then sticking with it through thick and thin.  These decisions should be as emotionless as possible and re-balancing should be the only knob you have to fiddle with.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: snowdog on January 23, 2020, 07:19:20 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 22, 2020, 03:58:23 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 17, 2020, 11:33:11 AM

Lately, I've been thinking a lot about increasing our equities exposure.  It's sort of weird (to me at least) that the more we have, the less of it we need, as a percentage. Therefore, it's okay if our money grows, but it doesn't kill us if it drops. Like @SwordGuy, we have multiple income streams. Our cash stash*, rentals and DH's Defined Benefit Pension kind of mimic bonds, so why not put the rest into equities? There, it can grow long term and earn more money to give a portion to our heirs, and an even bigger slug to charity. Something to think about. It flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but that's the way mustachians do things, right?

*We flip houses for fun and profit occasionally, so we keep an insane (by mustachian standards) amount of moolah in plain old ready cash. Not under the mattress, of course, but in liquid accounts.

That's been my thinking too.  The more you have, the more you can lean towards equities.  Btw, I noticed VIGAX gained over 37% for 2019.  After selling some more real estate I'm planning to buy some VIGAX.  It seems to prove the point about the unfair advantages Big Business has.

I totally agree.  I was always 100% equities during accumulation but began transitioning 2 years ago to position myself for retirement. At retirement I was 75/12/13 stocks/short-int bonds/cash. While it was painful for me to make this transition, the 25% can ride me through a 7-10 year bear so I'm sleeping like a baby. I have only been retired for 4 months and already the AA has changed to 77/11/12 due to equities market performance.  I have no plans to rebalance.  I'm always amused by the philosophy of "if you've won the game stop playing". When people utter that phrase they immediately equate the capital markets to a Las Vegas casino.  A casino is a game with the odds highly stacked against you.  The market is a collection of companies that create value over time.  When you have "won the game" by living a life of saving and investing in a diversified equity portfolio over the long term, that is much different than hitting it big at the black jack table and walking away. If you assume that you still have a ~25-30 year retirement ahead of you, why all of a sudden abandon the principles that got you here and leave tons of money on the table that could be donated or left to your heirs at some point in the future.  Flawed logic from my perspective.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 23, 2020, 07:31:36 AM

@snowdog, I like the way you think! Your reasoning is quite persuasive, thanks for your eloquent input.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 23, 2020, 07:53:19 AM

Quote from: snowdog on January 23, 2020, 07:19:20 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 22, 2020, 03:58:23 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 17, 2020, 11:33:11 AM

Lately, I've been thinking a lot about increasing our equities exposure.  It's sort of weird (to me at least) that the more we have, the less of it we need, as a percentage. Therefore, it's okay if our money grows, but it doesn't kill us if it drops. Like @SwordGuy, we have multiple income streams. Our cash stash*, rentals and DH's Defined Benefit Pension kind of mimic bonds, so why not put the rest into equities? There, it can grow long term and earn more money to give a portion to our heirs, and an even bigger slug to charity. Something to think about. It flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but that's the way mustachians do things, right?

*We flip houses for fun and profit occasionally, so we keep an insane (by mustachian standards) amount of moolah in plain old ready cash. Not under the mattress, of course, but in liquid accounts.

That's been my thinking too.  The more you have, the more you can lean towards equities.  Btw, I noticed VIGAX gained over 37% for 2019.  After selling some more real estate I'm planning to buy some VIGAX.  It seems to prove the point about the unfair advantages Big Business has.

I totally agree.  I was always 100% equities during accumulation but began transitioning 2 years ago to position myself for retirement. At retirement I was 75/12/13 stocks/short-int bonds/cash. While it was painful for me to make this transition, the 25% can ride me through a 7-10 year bear so I'm sleeping like a baby. I have only been retired for 4 months and already the AA has changed to 77/11/12 due to equities market performance.  I have no plans to rebalance.  I'm always amused by the philosophy of "if you've won the game stop playing". When people utter that phrase they immediately equate the capital markets to a Las Vegas casino.  A casino is a game with the odds highly stacked against you.  The market is a collection of companies that create value over time.  When you have "won the game" by living a life of saving and investing in a diversified equity portfolio over the long term, that is much different than hitting it big at the black jack table and walking away. If you assume that you still have a ~25-30 year retirement ahead of you, why all of a sudden abandon the principles that got you here and leave tons of money on the table that could be donated or left to your heirs at some point in the future.  Flawed logic from my perspective.

The logic is not flawed at all.
There is a difference in priorities involved.  These priorities may not be yours but that doesn’t mean they aren’t right for others.

While the markets are different than a casino in that the odds are in your favor rather than the house’s, they share the fact that results are probability based.  Keeping money in the market exposes yourself to risk.  Even with a withdrawal rate so low that it has never failed in the past, there is still a chance that it will fail in the future.

Some people may have a preference to locking down an as-a-possible-to-a-100%-sure-thing with TIPS etc., rather than taking a chance on the markets. They may willingly forego an expectation of higher available withdrawals or a large/larger legacy in exchange for that risk aversion.

 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: snowdog on January 23, 2020, 07:56:31 AM

Thanks Dicey.  And just to clarify, obviously I will need to rebalance at some point and periodically harvest some equities to replenish my cash/bond position and maintain a ~5 years of expense cushion.  I want it at 7-10 years now to battle the SORR but I'll be very comfortable with 5 years thereafter.  The general point is that over time my general equity allocation will continue to creep upward and that is fine by me. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 23, 2020, 08:05:01 AM

Quote from: snowdog on January 23, 2020, 07:56:31 AM

Thanks Dicey.  And just to clarify, obviously I will need to rebalance at some point and periodically harvest some equities to replenish my cash/bond position and maintain a ~5 years of expense cushion.  I want it at 7-10 years now to battle the SORR but I'll be very comfortable with 5 years thereafter.  The general point is that over time my general equity allocation will continue to creep upward and that is fine by me.

And just to clarify as well, I’m doing a reverse glide path myself, allowing my stock allocation to run up (I hope) from its current 50% to eventually 80%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: snowdog on January 23, 2020, 08:09:06 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 23, 2020, 07:53:19 AM

Quote from: snowdog on January 23, 2020, 07:19:20 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 22, 2020, 03:58:23 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 17, 2020, 11:33:11 AM

Lately, I've been thinking a lot about increasing our equities exposure.  It's sort of weird (to me at least) that the more we have, the less of it we need, as a percentage. Therefore, it's okay if our money grows, but it doesn't kill us if it drops. Like @SwordGuy, we have multiple income streams. Our cash stash*, rentals and DH's Defined Benefit Pension kind of mimic bonds, so why not put the rest into equities? There, it can grow long term and earn more money to give a portion to our heirs, and an even bigger slug to charity. Something to think about. It flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but that's the way mustachians do things, right?

*We flip houses for fun and profit occasionally, so we keep an insane (by mustachian standards) amount of moolah in plain old ready cash. Not under the mattress, of course, but in liquid accounts.

That's been my thinking too.  The more you have, the more you can lean towards equities.  Btw, I noticed VIGAX gained over 37% for 2019.  After selling some more real estate I'm planning to buy some VIGAX.  It seems to prove the point about the unfair advantages Big Business has.

I totally agree.  I was always 100% equities during accumulation but began transitioning 2 years ago to position myself for retirement. At retirement I was 75/12/13 stocks/short-int bonds/cash. While it was painful for me to make this transition, the 25% can ride me through a 7-10 year bear so I'm sleeping like a baby. I have only been retired for 4 months and already the AA has changed to 77/11/12 due to equities market performance.  I have no plans to rebalance.  I'm always amused by the philosophy of "if you've won the game stop playing". When people utter that phrase they immediately equate the capital markets to a Las Vegas casino.  A casino is a game with the odds highly stacked against you.  The market is a collection of companies that create value over time.  When you have "won the game" by living a life of saving and investing in a diversified equity portfolio over the long term, that is much different than hitting it big at the black jack table and walking away. If you assume that you still have a ~25-30 year retirement ahead of you, why all of a sudden abandon the principles that got you here and leave tons of money on the table that could be donated or left to your heirs at some point in the future.  Flawed logic from my perspective.

The logic is not flawed at all.
There is a difference in priorities involved.  These priorities may not be yours but that doesn’t mean they aren’t right for others.

While the markets are different than a casino in that the odds are in your favor rather than the house’s, they share the fact that results are probability based.  Keeping money in the market exposes yourself to risk.  Even with a withdrawal rate so low that it has never failed in the past, there is still a chance that it will fail in the future.

Some people may have a preference to locking down an as-a-possible-to-a-100%-sure-thing with TIPS etc., rather than taking a chance on the markets. They may willingly forego an expectation of higher available withdrawals or a large/larger legacy in exchange for that risk aversion.

Jeroly, I totally get your point.  However I would say that the markets are only probability based over the short term.  Over the long term markets always go up given a sufficient long term horizon (assuming you ignore the probability of the end of capitalism and the USA). I'm willing to take this risk.  In your example, "some people" are not eliminating risk, rather they are minimizing short term risk that markets will go down, in return for maximizing long term risk of earning subpar returns, leaving money on the table, and not outpacing inflation. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on January 23, 2020, 09:54:02 AM

Hi... can I hop on?  I'm another reverse glider.  Over $3m (though I'm in GBP: £3.3m total, £2.7m excluding house) - so I think that's about $3.5m excluding house.  I'm also underinvested but working on it (feels like a not great time to be buying equities but I always tend to be anticipating the next crash and although I'm hoping to RE fairly soon, I also have a long retirement to fund so I still need to take a long-term perspective. 

Currently I'm at just over 50% of non-house assets in equities (which is rubbish but up from 40% last year so moving in the right direction).  I've got the rest either in tax free investments (NS&I - poor return but inflation linked and mostly tax free) or in savings accounts just about covering inflation that are due to come to term over the next 1-5 years: so if I invest all of those in equities as they expire I'd end up about 75% in equities in 5 years time (holding everything else constant, which obviously it won't be!).  Which feels like enough for retirement though I see the logic for going further, and would probably dive in more if there was a big fall (I know, I know, market timing bad ...).

Anyway, looking forward to catching up on the thread but thought I would PTF and say Hi.  I also have a journal (link in the footer below but warning - contains whinging).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 23, 2020, 11:06:20 AM

@LightTripper I will translate into American for you.

Whinging = Whining...:)

Nice job on the stash, What is your anticipated spend in retirement? You have a lot of moolah there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on January 23, 2020, 03:37:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 23, 2020, 11:06:20 AM

@LightTripper I will translate into American for you.

Whinging = Whining...:)

Nice job on the stash, What is your anticipated spend in retirement? You have a lot of moolah there.

or wine-ing, for Alcho-Americans :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on January 23, 2020, 04:15:57 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on January 23, 2020, 03:37:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 23, 2020, 11:06:20 AM

@LightTripper I will translate into American for you.

Whinging = Whining...:)

Nice job on the stash, What is your anticipated spend in retirement? You have a lot of moolah there.

or wine-ing, for Alcho-Americans :-)

Oh, I definitely do wine-ing as well as whining!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on January 23, 2020, 04:25:04 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 23, 2020, 11:06:20 AM

@LightTripper I will translate into American for you.

Whinging = Whining...:)

Nice job on the stash, What is your anticipated spend in retirement? You have a lot of moolah there.

Thank you!!

At the moment my half of household expenses is around £65k, but we have both a full time nanny salary (plus pension, spends) plus school fees plus part time pre-school fees. So this should be maximum. Once I'm RE and even assuming some childcare costs my half would be about £50k.  Excluding children's expenses my own expenses before and after kids have been around £30k, so long long term I'd hope to settle around there. But in the short to medium term it's looking like a pretty fat FIRE!

I'm going to try to shift my job to more part time over the course of this year (have talked to my boss and in principle she's fine with it but in practice she's a workaholic so we'll see.... Though I mainly manage my own projects now so we'll see).

Basically I want to see if I can get back to enjoying my work if I'm less burnt out.... But if not (or it's too stressful to juggle with childcare) my plan is to pull up my big girl pants and ditch it in 2021 (if I do it in the first half of the year I can retire at 45, which is kind of nice?!)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 23, 2020, 11:14:54 PM

I think I’d have to really, really enjoy work to conclude my time was better spent at work than doing whatever the hell I dreamt up on my own.

Even though I don’t mind work, I hope I can find even more enjoyable uses for my valuable time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on January 25, 2020, 02:10:14 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 23, 2020, 11:14:54 PM

I think I’d have to really, really enjoy work to conclude my time was better spent at work than doing whatever the hell I dreamt up on my own.

Even though I don’t mind work, I hope I can find even more enjoyable uses for my valuable time.

I cannot believe anyone who works for others loves his/her work. If I had more than enough money, I would not work for a minute more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 25, 2020, 02:40:50 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on January 25, 2020, 02:10:14 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 23, 2020, 11:14:54 PM

I think I’d have to really, really enjoy work to conclude my time was better spent at work than doing whatever the hell I dreamt up on my own.

Even though I don’t mind work, I hope I can find even more enjoyable uses for my valuable time.

I cannot believe anyone who works for others loves his/her work. If I had more than enough money, I would not work for a minute more.

I am with you but there are plenty of people that do. Perhaps they need that stimulus and there are those few jobs that people get way over paid to work for people that dont want to sell there business and would rather make less buy treating someone really good to manage it for them as one example

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 25, 2020, 04:07:51 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 23, 2020, 11:14:54 PM

I think I’d have to really, really enjoy work to conclude my time was better spent at work than doing whatever the hell I dreamt up on my own.

Even though I don’t mind work, I hope I can find even more enjoyable uses for my valuable time.

I was just thinking about this recently as my own situation is quite similar. I am currently working in a tech startup, mostly as a favor to the CTO who is an old friend. I know am adding significant value to this company and I enjoy working with the team, and the pay is great. My situation is infinitely better than what it was in my previous megacorp job where I was a tiny cog in a big machine.

But as you put it, I think I am finding increasingly more enjoyable uses of my time than conventional work. I'm quitting this year, the only question is when. My current plan is to stick it out till about September.  By then, I think I will have helped launch the company in a good direction. If not, well, they're on their own :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 25, 2020, 05:39:31 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 25, 2020, 04:07:51 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 23, 2020, 11:14:54 PM

I think I’d have to really, really enjoy work to conclude my time was better spent at work than doing whatever the hell I dreamt up on my own.

Even though I don’t mind work, I hope I can find even more enjoyable uses for my valuable time.

I was just thinking about this recently as my own situation is quite similar. I am currently working in a tech startup, mostly as a favor to the CTO who is an old friend. I know am adding significant value to this company and I enjoy working with the team, and the pay is great. My situation is infinitely better than what it was in my previous megacorp job where I was a tiny cog in a big machine.

But as you put it, I think I am finding increasingly more enjoyable uses of my time than conventional work. I'm quitting this year, the only question is when. My current plan is to stick it out till about September.  By then, I think I will have helped launch the company in a good direction. If not, well, they're on their own :-)

Yes.  This is where I am at right now.  When I hit FI I sold my company to get rid of the risk (definitely had enough, so didnt want to chance losing a chunk of it with a deal gone poorly which was always possible) and because the hours were crazy, literally driving me insane...  To help the employees transition I was given a consulting position for the buyer.  I've effectively moved from averaging 60 hrs week to 25/wk.  All is from home in the area I want to live.  The pay is great definitely more than we spend so can continue to save as well.  I believe they'll keep me on for as long as I want to be as I think I definitely add more than enough to the bottom line.  Unlike many I read on this forum I could always find something to spend more money on ;-) so making more is worth something though I guess not a ton (even if its just to give it away)

Getting the risk off and the ton of hours off got rid of most of the stress (which admittedly was making me hate every minute of the work, when it used to be evenly divided in stuff that interested me and then the stuff I hated).  But when the SHit hits the fan I still need to step in and do what it takes, so there have been some long weeks and some stress with that, but then the 10 hr weeks with no pushing from external forces I would like to continue (so yes, on those weeks I would prefer to have the 10 hours working than not, but its never gonna be like that all the time).

So kinda stuck in that place right now, I am the first to admit not a bad place, just one that when I pull the trigger I know its done.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 25, 2020, 10:30:02 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on January 25, 2020, 02:10:14 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 23, 2020, 11:14:54 PM

I think I’d have to really, really enjoy work to conclude my time was better spent at work than doing whatever the hell I dreamt up on my own.

Even though I don’t mind work, I hope I can find even more enjoyable uses for my valuable time.

I cannot believe anyone who works for others loves his/her work. If I had more than enough money, I would not work for a minute more.

I guess the real trick may be knowing when it is more than enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 25, 2020, 02:17:42 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 25, 2020, 10:30:02 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on January 25, 2020, 02:10:14 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 23, 2020, 11:14:54 PM

I think I’d have to really, really enjoy work to conclude my time was better spent at work than doing whatever the hell I dreamt up on my own.

Even though I don’t mind work, I hope I can find even more enjoyable uses for my valuable time.

I cannot believe anyone who works for others loves his/her work. If I had more than enough money, I would not work for a minute more.

I guess the real trick may be knowing when it is more than enough.

At one point on my journey I defined what "enough" was in lifestyle terms - paid off house, car, $X per month for food/insurance/utilities/etc, a certain amount of recreation and travel.  I also decided what was "safe enough" in terms of the 4% rule and investments.  So I did actually wake up one day and measure that I had "enough".  I ended up working about two years longer just because the job was good money and the environment was still OK.  But it was pretty definitive and not vague in my case.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 25, 2020, 02:46:59 PM

"Enough?".. Thats easy.

Assuming the market will tank by 50% and I can make twice my most expensive year so far annual spend on 3% of the remainder.

Thats enough...;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: RWD on January 25, 2020, 03:48:18 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 25, 2020, 02:46:59 PM

"Enough?".. Thats easy.

Assuming the market will tank by 50% and I can make twice my most expensive year so far annual spend on 3% of the remainder.

Thats enough...;)

That is eerily similar to the number I came up with before I discovered the FIRE movement...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on January 25, 2020, 03:53:22 PM

That does sound like a nice margin for error @Exflyboy!

For me, I think my reluctance to fully RE is partly a cautious nature (E.g. I live in a country where wealth taxes are fairly frequently mooted and I suspect a 45 year old with most of their wealth outside their main residence is not going to qualify for a load of get out clauses if that one comes to pass... Or a 55 year old if it happens in 10 years)  If I live to my 90s (possible) I can imagine that free health are may have bitten the dust some time in the next 45 years. One of my children is autistic and might require some support (although I increasingly suspect I am too, and I've done OK).

And I know there is always a theoretical reason you might need more and you have to draw the line somewhere... So you can certainly be too cautious. I think I am genuinely nearly there.

But:
- My job can at times be genuinely fun and interesting, and plays to my ego (I'm often the "expert" in the room and people are interested in my opinion.... Not something that happens a lot in "real life"!)
- If I can find a way to retain the interesting bits without too much of the crap (massive "if"), with plenty of time to hang out with my kids and recharge between projects, then the ability to "keep my hand in" gives me the option to ramp up later if I need to. My job is stupidly well paid, and the half life of the knowledge probably isn't too bad... But still within 5 years of stopping I reckon my options would shrink quite a bit if I did want or need to earn again.
- If I do increase my pot it increases my ability to do good in the world through charitable giving (though there are obviously other ways of doing good that I could and would explore if I had more time). I do feel somewhat guilty "stepping off" the train in terms of producing cash that can be usefully employed through tax etc when I'm capable of doing so. But on the other hand, everyone gets to retire sometime and you risk burn out if you push too hard for too long. Community and family matter too.
- Finally I'm not a person who is very good at change. So I think personality-wise a gradual exit is more sensible than a sudden stop. I'm also not very good at getting things done without deadlines. I'm sure I can learn but... I think I'll do better if I ease into it.
- I am fundamentally a pretty happy person, and getting better at compartmentalising work stress from "life", so continuing working is a bit painful but certainly bearable... I know many people who work hard at not very fun jobs for a lot less money. Although that ability to compartmentalise my work stress failed for a few months last summer, which served as a bit of a wake up call.

So I suppose it comes down to where I am not being quite uncomfortable enough, and where I'm going being a bit scary/uncertain.

Does any of that make sense? Anyone relate? I need to read more of the thread... Not sure if everyone else is already RE or still in accumulation phase!

Don't get me wrong. I am going to RE, and soon. But this is why I'm dipping a toe rather than diving in...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 25, 2020, 11:21:41 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on January 25, 2020, 05:39:31 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 25, 2020, 04:07:51 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 23, 2020, 11:14:54 PM

I think I’d have to really, really enjoy work to conclude my time was better spent at work than doing whatever the hell I dreamt up on my own.

Even though I don’t mind work, I hope I can find even more enjoyable uses for my valuable time.

I was just thinking about this recently as my own situation is quite similar. I am currently working in a tech startup, mostly as a favor to the CTO who is an old friend. I know am adding significant value to this company and I enjoy working with the team, and the pay is great. My situation is infinitely better than what it was in my previous megacorp job where I was a tiny cog in a big machine.

But as you put it, I think I am finding increasingly more enjoyable uses of my time than conventional work. I'm quitting this year, the only question is when. My current plan is to stick it out till about September.  By then, I think I will have helped launch the company in a good direction. If not, well, they're on their own :-)

Yes.  This is where I am at right now.  When I hit FI I sold my company to get rid of the risk (definitely had enough, so didnt want to chance losing a chunk of it with a deal gone poorly which was always possible) and because the hours were crazy, literally driving me insane...  To help the employees transition I was given a consulting position for the buyer.  I've effectively moved from averaging 60 hrs week to 25/wk.  All is from home in the area I want to live.  The pay is great definitely more than we spend so can continue to save as well.  I believe they'll keep me on for as long as I want to be as I think I definitely add more than enough to the bottom line.  Unlike many I read on this forum I could always find something to spend more money on ;-) so making more is worth something though I guess not a ton (even if its just to give it away)

Getting the risk off and the ton of hours off got rid of most of the stress (which admittedly was making me hate every minute of the work, when it used to be evenly divided in stuff that interested me and then the stuff I hated).  But when the SHit hits the fan I still need to step in and do what it takes, so there have been some long weeks and some stress with that, but then the 10 hr weeks with no pushing from external forces I would like to continue (so yes, on those weeks I would prefer to have the 10 hours working than not, but its never gonna be like that all the time).

So kinda stuck in that place right now, I am the first to admit not a bad place, just one that when I pull the trigger I know its done.

Guess I'm either lucky or unusual, but I'm fine with the work / life balance.  There are people that I work with that are hoping for a severance package as they round out their 55 - 65 years.  It is not a stressful working environment, other than knowing I will have to move up in to their shoes when they go.  But moving up also means more company money to do what you want like travel and wine and dine, so maybe it will help me extend another few years even though I don't need to still be working.  It sure is nice to have finally arrived at this point where ER is both easy to realize and easy to put off a little.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 26, 2020, 02:18:06 PM

Interesting conversation.

By most measures we are beyond FI and have been enjoying RE for the past 6 years or so (Ok, I did some contract work since then, but I have not received a paycheck since May 2016).

The cracks are starting to show to be honest. I am beginning to miss the challenge of the workplace and DW is starting to make noises about my "drive" slipping away.

Like most engineers/scientists I sort of enjoy the idea that I'm the smartest person in the room (I would never say this pubicly.. cough) and fear that maybe my brain is rotting and only those closest to me are noticing it.. hmm.

Not sure what I am going to do about it (if anything) yet. I mean, my withdrawal rate was 1.5% last year.. No point in working ever again is there?..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on January 26, 2020, 02:27:29 PM

I think that when work becomes optional, the attitude towards it shifts significantly.  When you know that you can walk away, yet choose to stay, your outlook is far different than someone who is desperately trying to make ends meet, advance their career, etc.   The paychecks become fun money-- the cherry on top.  Also, its nice to get professional kudos and there is satisfaction in a job well done.

  A lot of you have paycheck jobs, so the difference between working and not working is huge.  In my observation,  self employed "side gigs" can be an extension of something you enjoy doing, ratcheted up a few notches.  Or perhaps something that pays so well that the temptation to do it, perhaps short term, part-time or freelance, is too great to pass up. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 26, 2020, 09:03:42 PM

Yeah, volunteering is good to keep sharp if you don't need income.

Of the people I know who have gone back to work simply to keep sharp or use their skills when they don't need money, most end up quitting in pretty short order because the work BS tends to be very noticeable and prominent if you're not distracted by needing money to pay bills.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 27, 2020, 04:10:07 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on January 26, 2020, 02:27:29 PM

I think that when work becomes optional, the attitude towards it shifts significantly.  When you know that you can walk away, yet choose to stay, your outlook is far different than someone who is desperately trying to make ends meet, advance their career, etc.   The paychecks become fun money-- the cherry on top.  Also, its nice to get professional kudos and there is satisfaction in a job well done.

  A lot of you have paycheck jobs, so the difference between working and not working is huge.  In my observation,  self employed "side gigs" can be an extension of something you enjoy doing, ratcheted up a few notches.  Or perhaps something that pays so well that the temptation to do it, perhaps short term, part-time or freelance, is too great to pass up.

well said/Written

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on January 27, 2020, 04:24:41 AM

I guess my plan is to try something similar to @Much Fishing to Do or @2sk22 and see how it works out.

I find it genuinely quite hard to imagine what life will be like in the next phase, so a gradual approach feels like the right one to me.  I suspect that once I taste some freedom the bad bits of my job won't be tolerable at all, and I'll learn to live without the good bits ... but I also think there is a chance that if I generally have more time with my family and to myself, then I'll be able to tolerate the bad bits better, and get less stressed (as I'll be less tired/burnt out, so easier to have a sense of perspective).

Of course, it's quite possible I'll also feel I'm not doing a very good job if I'm just doing small projects here and there, and that could also kill the job satisfaction.  Often my most satisfying days at work are the ones with very intense problem solving - but they are also the least good for my physical health and my family time/self care.  It feels hard to balance all that, and you can never really have the best of all worlds - at some level you have to choose what you value most.  I feel like that's the process I am embarking on over the next couple of years, working out what it is that I really *do* value most, and what I'm prepared to sacrifice for it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: desk_jockey on January 27, 2020, 04:52:02 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on January 27, 2020, 04:24:41 AM

Often my most satisfying days at work are the ones with very intense problem solving - but they are also the least good for my physical health and my family time/self care.  It feels hard to balance all that, and you can never really have the best of all worlds - at some level you have to choose what you value most.

This resonates with me.  I find productive  work satisfying.  There's just a lot of other non-work stuff that I want to do while young enough.  Am thinking to look into short term contracting opportunities in my area of expertise when I pull the trigger.  3-6 months working a year might be a good fit for me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 27, 2020, 09:39:16 AM

Exflyboy needs a boat.  Then he will spend all his excess time and money keeping it afloat.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on January 27, 2020, 10:23:46 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 27, 2020, 09:39:16 AM

Exflyboy needs a boat.  Then he will spend all his excess time and money keeping it afloat.

I highly recommend a boat.  Nothing beats cocktails on the boat watching the sunset.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 27, 2020, 10:32:26 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 27, 2020, 10:23:46 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 27, 2020, 09:39:16 AM

Exflyboy needs a boat.  Then he will spend all his excess time and money keeping it afloat.

I highly recommend a boat.  Nothing beats cocktails on the boat watching the sunset.  :)

ditto - There's magic from the sky as the last rays of sun join the water.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 27, 2020, 11:20:15 AM

Haha.. I think I'd be hitting up another fast airplane first.. I've seen a couple that whet my appetite..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 27, 2020, 12:12:08 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 27, 2020, 11:20:15 AM

Haha.. I think I'd be hitting up another fast airplane first.. I've seen a couple that whet my appetite..:)

That will definitely work.   Planes are just flying boats anyway.  Money hungry SOB's and they float in the air. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on January 27, 2020, 12:19:55 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 27, 2020, 12:12:08 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 27, 2020, 11:20:15 AM

Haha.. I think I'd be hitting up another fast airplane first.. I've seen a couple that whet my appetite..:)

That will definitely work.   Planes are just flying boats anyway.  Money hungry SOB's and they float in the air.

A plane is a hole in the air that swallows money.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on January 27, 2020, 12:22:43 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 27, 2020, 12:12:08 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 27, 2020, 11:20:15 AM

Haha.. I think I'd be hitting up another fast airplane first.. I've seen a couple that whet my appetite..:)

That will definitely work.   Planes are just flying boats anyway.  Money hungry SOB's and they float in the air.

Per https://xkcd.com/thing-explainer/   book, an airplane is a "sky boat".
In Thing Explainer: Complicated Stuff in Simple Words, things are explained in the style of Up Goer Five, using only drawings and a vocabulary of the 1,000 (or "ten hundred") most common words.

Get a real flying boat, and have the best/worst of both worlds :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 27, 2020, 12:55:22 PM

Actually a guy I know built the same airplane I did and then put it on amphibious floats.

It was one of the fastest "seaplanes" flying..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on January 27, 2020, 03:20:30 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 27, 2020, 12:55:22 PM

Actually a guy I know built the same airplane I did and then put it on amphibious floats.

It was one of the fastest "seaplanes" flying..:)

That's cool.  What kind of plane did you build? 


I'm considering getting my pilots license. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 27, 2020, 05:27:43 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 27, 2020, 03:20:30 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 27, 2020, 12:55:22 PM

Actually a guy I know built the same airplane I did and then put it on amphibious floats.

It was one of the fastest "seaplanes" flying..:)

That's cool.  What kind of plane did you build? 


I'm considering getting my pilots license.

A Vans RV 7a with about 190hp, Constant speed prop and full instrument capability. I did my instrument rating in it. It used to cruise at around 200mph or 185mph in "economy".

It had inverted fuel and oil systems for aerobatics too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 28, 2020, 01:06:54 AM

Quote from: lhamo on January 26, 2020, 03:48:02 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 26, 2020, 02:18:06 PM

Interesting conversation.

By most measures we are beyond FI and have been enjoying RE for the past 6 years or so (Ok, I did some contract work since then, but I have not received a paycheck since May 2016).

The cracks are starting to show to be honest. I am beginning to miss the challenge of the workplace and DW is starting to make noises about my "drive" slipping away.

Like most engineers/scientists I sort of enjoy the idea that I'm the smartest person in the room (I would never say this pubicly.. cough) and fear that maybe my brain is rotting and only those closest to me are noticing it.. hmm.

Not sure what I am going to do about it (if anything) yet. I mean, my withdrawal rate was 1.5% last year.. No point in working ever again is there?..;)

https://www.ewb-usa.org/

Also, mentoring.    I would bet OSU would have opportunities.  My daughter joined robotics at school and they are participating in the FIRST robotics competition -- season is from Jan-Mayish, so a good time for indoor volunteering (the teams have mentors and coaches).

https://www.firstinspires.org/robotics/frc

I can recommend FIRST too. I have coached several First LEGO League teams and have also served as a judge in some First Tech Challenge competitionS. For a technically minded person, this is great way to stay in shape mentally and do some good work at the same time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 28, 2020, 03:27:22 AM

Quote from: pecunia on January 27, 2020, 10:32:26 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 27, 2020, 10:23:46 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 27, 2020, 09:39:16 AM

Exflyboy needs a boat.  Then he will spend all his excess time and money keeping it afloat.

I highly recommend a boat.  Nothing beats cocktails on the boat watching the sunset.  :)

ditto - There's magic from the sky as the last rays of sun join the water.

So why we moved onto the lake so we could have the ease of any night that serves up good weather walk down and have cocktails on the boat and so much more. So fun and relaxing!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 28, 2020, 05:01:06 AM

The town about 8 miles away is the "North Country Trail Town" for the region.  I think one of my first "retirement" jobs or volunteering will be there assuming there isn't some internal political stuff that ruins it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on January 28, 2020, 01:22:03 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on January 26, 2020, 02:27:29 PM

I think that when work becomes optional, the attitude towards it shifts significantly.  When you know that you can walk away, yet choose to stay, your outlook is far different than someone who is desperately trying to make ends meet, advance their career, etc.   The paychecks become fun money-- the cherry on top.  Also, its nice to get professional kudos and there is satisfaction in a job well done.

  A lot of you have paycheck jobs, so the difference between working and not working is huge.  In my observation,  self employed "side gigs" can be an extension of something you enjoy doing, ratcheted up a few notches.  Or perhaps something that pays so well that the temptation to do it, perhaps short term, part-time or freelance, is too great to pass up.

Yes I feel the same way about my self-employment situation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 28, 2020, 06:22:14 PM

Cleared the cobwebs out yesterday and today with a bike trip.  Rode 55 miles into New Orleans yesterday, stayed with a friend overnight.  Rode a different route 45 miles back today.  For shits and giggles, I got pulled over by the cops on my bicycle.  I was trying to skirt New Orleans International Airport on a gravel road.  It's a restricted road and he directed me out of the area.  So I had to detour onto a very busy and shoulderless airport access road.  People driving to and from airports are stressed as shit.  A crazy guy on a bike really sets them off.  This is a brand new airport that has only been open a few months.  There is zero bike or pedestrian access.  Luckily, moving to Florida the Tampa airport is bike friendly and have built new trails.  Tampa is actually encouraging airport access by bike for it's workers.  Sadly New Orleans missed that opportunity.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 28, 2020, 07:13:07 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 28, 2020, 06:22:14 PM

Cleared the cobwebs out yesterday and today with a bike trip.  Rode 55 miles into New Orleans yesterday, stayed with a friend overnight.  Rode a different route 45 miles back today.  For shits and giggles, I got pulled over by the cops on my bicycle.  I was trying to skirt New Orleans International Airport on a gravel road.  It's a restricted road and he directed me out of the area.  So I had to detour onto a very busy and shoulderless airport access road.  People driving to and from airports are stressed as shit.  A crazy guy on a bike really sets them off.  This is a brand new airport that has only been open a few months.  There is zero bike or pedestrian access.  Luckily, moving to Florida the Tampa airport is bike friendly and have built new trails.  Tampa is actually encouraging airport access by bike for it's workers.  Sadly New Orleans missed that opportunity.

Whew! Glad you're okay. I remember riding through LAX one day and seeing a grate that was perpendicular to the road. I had to skirt around it into traffic to avoid having my rims destroyed. Scary and infuriating. Who designs this shit?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 28, 2020, 07:18:34 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 28, 2020, 07:13:07 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 28, 2020, 06:22:14 PM

Cleared the cobwebs out yesterday and today with a bike trip.  Rode 55 miles into New Orleans yesterday, stayed with a friend overnight.  Rode a different route 45 miles back today.  For shits and giggles, I got pulled over by the cops on my bicycle.  I was trying to skirt New Orleans International Airport on a gravel road.  It's a restricted road and he directed me out of the area.  So I had to detour onto a very busy and shoulderless airport access road.  People driving to and from airports are stressed as shit.  A crazy guy on a bike really sets them off.  This is a brand new airport that has only been open a few months.  There is zero bike or pedestrian access.  Luckily, moving to Florida the Tampa airport is bike friendly and have built new trails.  Tampa is actually encouraging airport access by bike for it's workers.  Sadly New Orleans missed that opportunity.

Whew! Glad you're okay. I remember riding through LAX one day and seeing a grate that was perpendicular to the road. I had to skirt around it into traffic to avoid having my rims destroyed. Scary and infuriating. Who designs this shit?

You'd think it's a mystery what direction the traffic flows.  When riding a road bike I'm always mindful of any grating.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on January 29, 2020, 12:52:58 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 27, 2020, 10:23:46 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 27, 2020, 09:39:16 AM

Exflyboy needs a boat.  Then he will spend all his excess time and money keeping it afloat.

I highly recommend a boat.  Nothing beats cocktails on the boat watching the sunset.  :)

I already had a boat.  For me, reality would be to watch the sun set, then slam into a rock, bending the prop.  I don't miss that stupid stink pot.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 29, 2020, 05:12:15 PM

The two happiest days of a boat owner  - The day he buys it and the day he sells it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on January 29, 2020, 07:02:40 PM

If you've got $2M-$4M what's the big deal about owning a boat? 


As they say, "You can't take it with you." 


And, "Your kids will buy a boat with their inheritance."  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 29, 2020, 08:37:25 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 29, 2020, 07:02:40 PM

If you've got $2M-$4M what's the big deal about owning a boat? 


As they say, "You can't take it with you." 


And, "Your kids will buy a boat with their inheritance."  ;)

😂 blame the kids

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 03, 2020, 05:03:03 AM

Crickets.................

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on February 03, 2020, 07:06:28 AM

It’s getting a little scary!!
What happens if Corona virus takes me under $2M? Do I have to find another thread to post in?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 03, 2020, 07:25:17 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 03, 2020, 07:06:28 AM

It’s getting a little scary!!
What happens if Corona virus takes me under $2M? Do I have to find another thread to post in?

Maybe not, if the "Corona virus" gets you first... (black humor)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 03, 2020, 07:49:58 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 03, 2020, 07:06:28 AM

It’s getting a little scary!!
What happens if Corona virus takes me under $2M? Do I have to find another thread to post in?

It might be time to start a "Crying in your beer" thread.  Or maybe a "Damn I wish I hadn't bought that boat!" thread. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 03, 2020, 08:28:02 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on February 03, 2020, 07:49:58 AM

It might be time to start a "Crying in your beer" thread.  Or maybe a "Damn I wish I hadn't bought that boat!" thread.

Just make sure it's not a Corona... ba dum, cha...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 03, 2020, 10:54:16 AM

Quote from: Dicey on February 03, 2020, 07:25:17 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 03, 2020, 07:06:28 AM

It’s getting a little scary!!
What happens if Corona virus takes me under $2M? Do I have to find another thread to post in?

Maybe not, if the "Corona virus" gets you first... (black humor)

Is Black Humor ok these days? lol , your not running for any future office I hope!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 03, 2020, 11:43:12 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 03, 2020, 10:54:16 AM

Quote from: Dicey on February 03, 2020, 07:25:17 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 03, 2020, 07:06:28 AM

It’s getting a little scary!!
What happens if Corona virus takes me under $2M? Do I have to find another thread to post in?

Maybe not, if the "Corona virus" gets you first... (black humor)

Is Black Humor ok these days? lol , your not running for any future office I hope!

Well, I wasn't sure what to call it. It wasn't sarcasm, for which there is a known symbol (/s), and dark humor didn't really fit the bill. Since it's referring to black as in "black of night", I think it's  okay. However, I fully intend to never run for any future office, lol.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 03, 2020, 12:03:53 PM

I’m pretty sure @Dicey would do a much better job in some high office than our current illustrious leaders.

You got my vote!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 03, 2020, 03:52:29 PM

@Dicey .. Whats your position on landmines? The goon seems to like them..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 03, 2020, 05:38:35 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 03, 2020, 03:52:29 PM

@Dicey .. Whats your position on landmines? The goon seems to like them..

That guy makes my head want to explode. I can't even.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: desk_jockey on February 03, 2020, 10:01:36 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 03, 2020, 05:38:35 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 03, 2020, 03:52:29 PM

@Dicey .. Whats your position on landmines? The goon seems to like them..

That guy makes my head want to explode. I can't even.

Yes, but I come here as a respite from all the talk by and of that asshat.  So back on topic, the market recovered a bit today thus postponing my fall from this thead to the one below.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 04, 2020, 03:35:41 AM

Quote from: desk_jockey on February 03, 2020, 10:01:36 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 03, 2020, 05:38:35 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 03, 2020, 03:52:29 PM

@Dicey .. Whats your position on landmines? The goon seems to like them..

That guy makes my head want to explode. I can't even.

Yes, but I come here as a respite from all the talk by and of that asshat.  So back on topic, the market recovered a bit today thus postponing my fall from this thead to the one below.

I dont think dipping in and out makes you have to leave! Or dipping out on the market for that matter.  Your in.. ! imo

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 04, 2020, 04:55:16 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 04, 2020, 03:35:41 AM

Quote from: desk_jockey on February 03, 2020, 10:01:36 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 03, 2020, 05:38:35 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 03, 2020, 03:52:29 PM

@Dicey .. Whats your position on landmines? The goon seems to like them..

That guy makes my head want to explode. I can't even.

Yes, but I come here as a respite from all the talk by and of that asshat.  So back on topic, the market recovered a bit today thus postponing my fall from this thead to the one below.

I dont think dipping in and out makes you have to leave! Or dipping out on the market for that matter.  Your in.. ! imo

I know I'm new and all, so not sure I get a vote, but I agree, once you're in you're in (sorry!)

It seems the more I think I've got my finances sorted the more there is to learn about/fix.  Just come across some weird UK tax thing that means some of the investments I bought in my non-tax--wrapper accounts in September and January are going to be an admin pain from a tax point of view, so had to switch those over... still, at least I learned within the tax year, so I should only have to do the tax admin once (and it might actually not generate any liability at all: at worst just a small one if I got unlucky on dates).  Also looking properly at the costs on all my ancient ISAs (like a UK Roth) and wondering if I am mad to have my pension/two GIAs split across three providers.  they all have platform fees that cap out at a certain level and I didn't do enough research on that when I set them up, so it could be that I could save a couple of hundred a year by consolidating... and some easier wins that I could get with less work, just by shifting my mix of products in each place.

I wonder if this will ever end - or is there always "something else to learn/do" with investments/savings/taxes etc?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 04, 2020, 05:37:22 AM

Quote from: desk_jockey on February 03, 2020, 10:01:36 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 03, 2020, 05:38:35 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 03, 2020, 03:52:29 PM

@Dicey .. Whats your position on landmines? The goon seems to like them..

That guy makes my head want to explode. I can't even.

Yes, but I come here as a respite from all the talk by and of that asshat.  So back on topic, the market recovered a bit today thus postponing my fall from this thead to the one below.

Totally agree. Never have I had a deeper appreciation for the Low Information Diet than now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 05, 2020, 11:31:39 AM

Ready to make a major move into wealth preservation within my 401K.

I have 165K in VBTLX and will keep that there.   The total 401K is about 1.25M.  Looking to go to 50 percent preservation in the 401K.   Buy more of the VBTLX or go Morley Stable Value?   Thinking of moving 500 or 600K into the Stable Value right now while I decide on where to park it long term.

My wifes 401K and rollover IRA are about 425K combined.  Probably will move some of that to more preservation as well.

Going to leave the Roth IRAs almost 300K in VTSAX.   

The Cash Balance pension 400K is with Prudential and the company is still pouring in money.  It earns 5%.

Probably will keep about one million in growth/risk and look to preserve the rest.  I hate throwing in the towel, but I have rolled the dice long enough.   Not quiiting work yet but it's on the radar.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 05, 2020, 11:36:05 AM

Personally, I'd do VBTLX rather than a stable value fund.  While bonds are known to quiet the volatility of the portfolio, it does go up over time.  More so than a stable value fund would.

I just did a small rebalance this morning from equity to bond.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 05, 2020, 12:43:25 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 05, 2020, 11:36:05 AM

Personally, I'd do VBTLX rather than a stable value fund.  While bonds are known to quiet the volatility of the portfolio, it does go up over time.  More so than a stable value fund would.

I just did a small rebalance this morning from equity to bond.

I did buy some VBTLX, now my 401K has 15 percent, I moved to 50 percent Stable Value,  25 percent Index 500 and 10 percent Mainstay Large Cap Growth.  I may adjust from Stable Value later .   For my wife's401K , I moved to 70 percent Vanguard 2020, 20 percent Index 500 and 10 percent Vanguard REIT. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on February 05, 2020, 07:39:52 PM

What's the expense ratio of Morley Stable Value ? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 05, 2020, 08:32:06 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on February 05, 2020, 07:39:52 PM

What's the expense ratio of Morley Stable Value ?

Kind of pricey.   Looks like 0.49% VBTLX is what?  0.05%.   I definitely took thaf into consideration.   

I'm using Stable Value as a parking place till I figure it out.   I had family members get wiped out pretty bad who'd retired prior to 2008.  I see nothing to prevent a 40 to 50 percentage drop coming again.  I hate giving up on the huge gains I've been making by being invested almoat 90 percent growth.  But, my plan is to definitely not work past 2023.  Potentially be done within 12 months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 07, 2020, 05:08:00 AM

I was just compiling our tax data for 2019 and it looks like our W2 gross income alone for the year will be more than the entire stash for many people on this forum. Although my wife and I were fairly well paid early in our careers, this all still feels unreal.

Making good money later in life feels very different from the situation for a lot of young hot-shots in Silicon Valley. Our situation has the feel of hitting a lottery. At this point, like @Bateaux I will be grateful to just hold on to what we have earned.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 07, 2020, 10:56:09 PM

We’re in a similar situation. Kind of amazed by our earnings this year. We both had personal records, and it makes FIRE both possible and seem kind of crazy to give up this kind of income.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 07, 2020, 11:34:43 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 07, 2020, 05:08:00 AM

I was just compiling our tax data for 2019 and it looks like our W2 gross income alone for the year will be more than the entire stash for many people on this forum. Although my wife and I were fairly well paid early in our careers, this all still feels unreal.

Making good money later in life feels very different from the situation for a lot of young hot-shots in Silicon Valley. Our situation has the feel of hitting a lottery. At this point, like @Bateaux I will be grateful to just hold on to what we have earned.

Wait.. Your W2 income is more than $2million?  I'm impressed..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 08, 2020, 12:12:03 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 07, 2020, 11:34:43 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 07, 2020, 05:08:00 AM

I was just compiling our tax data for 2019 and it looks like our W2 gross income alone for the year will be more than the entire stash for many people on this forum. Although my wife and I were fairly well paid early in our careers, this all still feels unreal.

Making good money later in life feels very different from the situation for a lot of young hot-shots in Silicon Valley. Our situation has the feel of hitting a lottery. At this point, like @Bateaux I will be grateful to just hold on to what we have earned.

We know who the and Beyond's are.  I finally have enough equities, to not count pension or houses or baseball cards for 2M.

Wait.. Your W2 income is more than $2million?  I'm impressed..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 08, 2020, 01:40:59 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 07, 2020, 11:34:43 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 07, 2020, 05:08:00 AM

I was just compiling our tax data for 2019 and it looks like our W2 gross income alone for the year will be more than the entire stash for many people on this forum. Although my wife and I were fairly well paid early in our careers, this all still feels unreal.

Making good money later in life feels very different from the situation for a lot of young hot-shots in Silicon Valley. Our situation has the feel of hitting a lottery. At this point, like @Bateaux I will be grateful to just hold on to what we have earned.

Wait.. Your W2 income is more than $2million?  I'm impressed..:)

No - I meant the mrmoneymustache forums as a whole - definitely not the group in this topic :-)
Our household's W2 total is less than a million dollars but not by too much!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 08, 2020, 02:17:13 AM

Ahhhh tax time... Going to be paying about 10xs as much this year per my calculations because of the large draw I took when purchasing the new house. Fortunately In negotiating for the house I negotiated some of that off the price but still sucks when for the most part Fire'd working a side gig but also dumping $ into the new place. My choice so gotta live by the decision.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 08, 2020, 10:30:59 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 08, 2020, 02:17:13 AM

Ahhhh tax time... Going to be paying about 10xs as much this year per my calculations because of the large draw I took when purchasing the new house. Fortunately In negotiating for the house I negotiated some of that off the price but still sucks when for the most part Fire'd working a side gig but also dumping $ into the new place. My choice so gotta live by the decision.

Ha! We feel the same way because of the flip house. Definitely Mustachian People Problems! So glad to have them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on February 08, 2020, 10:36:45 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 08, 2020, 01:40:59 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 07, 2020, 11:34:43 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 07, 2020, 05:08:00 AM

I was just compiling our tax data for 2019 and it looks like our W2 gross income alone for the year will be more than the entire stash for many people on this forum. Although my wife and I were fairly well paid early in our careers, this all still feels unreal.

Making good money later in life feels very different from the situation for a lot of young hot-shots in Silicon Valley. Our situation has the feel of hitting a lottery. At this point, like @Bateaux I will be grateful to just hold on to what we have earned.

Wait.. Your W2 income is more than $2million?  I'm impressed..:)

No - I meant the mrmoneymustache forums as a whole - definitely not the group in this topic :-)
Our household's W2 total is less than a million dollars but not by too much!

I never made much income, I think I only got above $100k a few times in my life.
I still managed to save quite a bit, though it took me longer than most people on mrmoneymustache

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 08, 2020, 10:43:13 AM

Haha.. If anything if I ever made close to $1M in income I would probably never retire..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 08, 2020, 11:44:54 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 08, 2020, 02:17:13 AM

Ahhhh tax time... Going to be paying about 10xs as much this year per my calculations because of the large draw I took when purchasing the new house. Fortunately In negotiating for the house I negotiated some of that off the price but still sucks when for the most part Fire'd working a side gig but also dumping $ into the new place. My choice so gotta live by the decision.

I get to do that next year. :(

Can't complain either.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 08, 2020, 12:59:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 08, 2020, 10:43:13 AM

Haha.. If anything if I ever made close to $1M in income I would probably never retire..:)

That's a trap that I've seen a number of successful friends caught in.  They like the money and the prestige, and hate it when I point out that my schedule is wide-open while theirs is filled with "important" things.


I tell them that "my" time is very important to me.  ;) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 08, 2020, 07:32:31 PM

DW and I were just talking about the prestige thing today. My work connects me to people, and this gives me access that is pretty nice to have. And while we don’t flaunt our money, people know we do okay. So DW’s question was, “If/when you FIRE, are you worried about loss of access or prestige?”  It’s a good question that I get to ponder as I participate in “important” and boring meetings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 08, 2020, 07:42:04 PM

I will definitely miss some things about working, the perks mostly. Free food, a nice place to hang out with snack and drinks and WiFi, the freebies and outings and whatnot. I don’t think I care as much about the prestige part but I may very well be mistaken there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 08, 2020, 08:14:23 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 08, 2020, 07:42:04 PM

I will definitely miss some things about working, the perks mostly. Free food, a nice place to hang out with snack and drinks and WiFi, the freebies and outings and whatnot. I don’t think I care as much about the prestige part but I may very well be mistaken there.

No place I ever worked had nice enough facilities or WiFi that I wanted to be there working instead of somewhere else.   A cheap polo shirt ever year or five.  Nope, not worth it.   Outings with people I usually have nothing in common with other than work.   Nope, not worth it.

Getting to travel to Europe or around the US on business was nice -- in moderation.    It wasn't always in moderation. :(    Worth it for a few years, but no more.

I can have the status of "programmer" or "author" any time I want them just by doing those tasks for myself.   So far, I haven't wanted them enough to bother.   I'll eventually start writing again, I'm starting to get that bug, just not enough yet to finish anything.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 09, 2020, 02:32:20 PM

I certainly never said that the perks were worth working for. I am quitting soon, after all.
But there is no getting around that fact that the food is free and way better at work than at home. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 09, 2020, 04:06:06 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 09, 2020, 02:32:20 PM

But there is no getting around that fact that the food is free and way better at work than at home. :)

Food wasn't free where I worked and my wife's a great cook.    I'm a passable cook who cooks well enough that I can do better than anyplace I've ever worked. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: webguy on February 11, 2020, 10:20:49 AM

Quote from: webguy on August 30, 2019, 02:23:48 AM

Quote from: webguy on January 18, 2019, 03:18:50 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 09, 2018, 01:40:34 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 08, 2018, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 06, 2017, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on August 24, 2016, 07:53:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 01, 2016, 10:42:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 13, 2016, 01:41:00 PM

Quote from: webguy on November 12, 2015, 09:46:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 26, 2015, 08:35:08 PM

I'd like to join to help motivate me. Currently at $540k and hope to hit the big 1M in the next couple of years.

I made it to $748k! Keep saving everybody!!

I made it to $988k and was getting excited... and then taxes hit! Looks like it'll be another few months yet :(

I finally did it!! Crawled over the line to $1,000,330 today!  Feels pretty surreal. Never thought I'd actually be worth a million dollars. Now I guess I keep on saving towards the next million!

Currently at $1.11m.  Don't really have a goal number at this point. I love running my own business so just tryna ride it out as long as possible and "make hay while the sun shines" as they say.

Passed the half way point!  Somehow we have $1.535m. Not sure how long the next 0.465 will take but I'll report back if we get there!

It took a little longer than I’d hoped due to the market being a douchebag lately but we Just hit 2 million today! We’re officially multi-millionaires I guess! I crunched the numbers and I think our “fat fire” number is around 2.5-3M so I’ll probably keep trucking away till we hit that, then I’m not sure what I’ll do.

Can I join your thread?  We just hit 2M yesterday! And with the friendly market today we're up another 15k already!  I'm carrying over our progress from the race to 2M thread if that's OK as I like keeping track of it this way.

Felt like we got stuck around 2.3M forever but finally hit 2.5M today! Next stop 3M... and beyond!

It’s been a long time coming but finally hit 3M today! Next stop... beyond! :)

16 more pages of this thread have gone by since I last checked in but I can now report we made it to $3.5M!  I see the name of the thread has changed so I guess I have no choice but to keep going till I get past $4M now :D

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on February 11, 2020, 10:31:01 AM

Awesome webguy!  I joined the forum in 2015. My progress has not been that fast, but I am FIREd since June 2018.
Any yes, you DO have a choice :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 11, 2020, 11:18:35 AM

Quote from: webguy on February 11, 2020, 10:20:49 AM

Quote from: webguy on August 30, 2019, 02:23:48 AM

Quote from: webguy on January 18, 2019, 03:18:50 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 09, 2018, 01:40:34 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 08, 2018, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 06, 2017, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on August 24, 2016, 07:53:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 01, 2016, 10:42:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 13, 2016, 01:41:00 PM

Quote from: webguy on November 12, 2015, 09:46:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 26, 2015, 08:35:08 PM

I'd like to join to help motivate me. Currently at $540k and hope to hit the big 1M in the next couple of years.

I made it to $748k! Keep saving everybody!!

I made it to $988k and was getting excited... and then taxes hit! Looks like it'll be another few months yet :(

I finally did it!! Crawled over the line to $1,000,330 today!  Feels pretty surreal. Never thought I'd actually be worth a million dollars. Now I guess I keep on saving towards the next million!

Currently at $1.11m.  Don't really have a goal number at this point. I love running my own business so just tryna ride it out as long as possible and "make hay while the sun shines" as they say.

Passed the half way point!  Somehow we have $1.535m. Not sure how long the next 0.465 will take but I'll report back if we get there!

It took a little longer than I’d hoped due to the market being a douchebag lately but we Just hit 2 million today! We’re officially multi-millionaires I guess! I crunched the numbers and I think our “fat fire” number is around 2.5-3M so I’ll probably keep trucking away till we hit that, then I’m not sure what I’ll do.

Can I join your thread?  We just hit 2M yesterday! And with the friendly market today we're up another 15k already!  I'm carrying over our progress from the race to 2M thread if that's OK as I like keeping track of it this way.

Felt like we got stuck around 2.3M forever but finally hit 2.5M today! Next stop 3M... and beyond!

It’s been a long time coming but finally hit 3M today! Next stop... beyond! :)

16 more pages of this thread have gone by since I last checked in but I can now report we made it to $3.5M!  I see the name of the thread has changed so I guess I have no choice but to keep going till I get past $4M now :D

Incredible gains webguy.  Checking Mint, we've reached 2.4M, our gains will slow a bit since I've moved all but about 1M into safety.   Welcome back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 12, 2020, 11:38:10 AM

Wow. At the rate you are making bank I am not sure MMM is at all relevant but still happy to watch your story with some level of awe.

I have also enjoyed an incredible run over the past 5 years, like everyone on this thread I guess, but I certainly wasn’t starting from $540K. It’s been a very investor friendly time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 12, 2020, 06:42:31 PM

Wow!  Another record high!

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/12/us-futures-point-to-higher-open-after-stocks-hit-fresh-record-highs.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/12/us-futures-point-to-higher-open-after-stocks-hit-fresh-record-highs.html)

If things keep going like this, I may actually get to 4 million dollars some day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on February 12, 2020, 08:15:17 PM

Well because of the frothy stock market my liquid assets crossed the $2 million mark, to $2,007,000

On top of that I have another $425,000 in equity.

The Top is In.  The market will promptly crash now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 12, 2020, 08:52:46 PM

Any of you rich guys looking for a beautiful lake lot, or two?  It's a great deal, same price it was when the S&P was 50% ago.  Now's the perfect time to cash out & build your dream house, before the market crashes.   ;) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 12, 2020, 10:06:37 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on February 12, 2020, 08:15:17 PM

Well because of the frothy stock market my liquid assets crossed the $2 million mark, to $2,007,000

On top of that I have another $425,000 in equity.

The Top is In.  The market will promptly crash now.

Sorry for the minor correction, but a crash is scheduled for mid next month when I will be quitting work for good.

Mark your calendars, folks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 13, 2020, 02:26:57 AM

Exactly twenty years ago in February 2000, I was wondering if the stock market bubble would burst and sure enough it did the very next month :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 14, 2020, 02:24:59 AM

My Couch prediction is the Market really wants to get to 30/10 and then correct BUT will the Virus or Politics keep that from happening first...........

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 14, 2020, 04:01:06 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 12, 2020, 10:06:37 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on February 12, 2020, 08:15:17 PM

Well because of the frothy stock market my liquid assets crossed the $2 million mark, to $2,007,000

On top of that I have another $425,000 in equity.

The Top is In.  The market will promptly crash now.

Sorry for the minor correction, but a crash is scheduled for mid next month when I will be quitting work for good.

Mark your calendars, folks.

Congratulations on your impending freedom!!

Do you know the "Retired Syd" blog?  She doesn't update very much any more (because she's retired, natch) but the market crashed just after she quit work and her posts from around that time are a reassuring read (of course, the market also recovered very quickly that time, so all turned out fine: but nonetheless she writes some good stuff about the psychology of it).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 14, 2020, 05:06:02 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 14, 2020, 04:01:06 AM

Do you know the "Retired Syd" blog?  She doesn't update very much any more (because she's retired, natch) but the market crashed just after she quit work and her posts from around that time are a reassuring read (of course, the market also recovered very quickly that time, so all turned out fine: but nonetheless she writes some good stuff about the psychology of it).

OMG, another Retired Syd fan!  I loved that blog! I was so happy to see a couple of recent (-ish) updates and to learn that she's still doing well. Here's a link:
https://retiredsyd.typepad.com/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 14, 2020, 05:20:41 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 12, 2020, 10:06:37 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on February 12, 2020, 08:15:17 PM

Well because of the frothy stock market my liquid assets crossed the $2 million mark, to $2,007,000

On top of that I have another $425,000 in equity.

The Top is In.  The market will promptly crash now.

Sorry for the minor correction, but a crash is scheduled for mid next month when I will be quitting work for good.

Mark your calendars, folks.

I've started the alignment to retire and really want to see some significant crash before quitting.  Working in the Petro/chemical business you know pretty much when things are slowing. The refineries are feeling the China problems as well as the disruption of demographics.  People are driving less miles per person.  I'm in chemical manufacturing and thus far our issues have been lack of raw material supply. We've had major on-site equipment repair and new construction which has temporarily slowed our production.  Demand thus far is strong as well as pricing.  We make polyurethane, inventory is low and demand is still high.  There will be no deep recession until demand for our products levels and drops.  That however doesn't have much to do with panic drops in the market.   Ten to twenty percent swings at this level could be considered chatter and noise.  We aren't seeing that yet because the government and the consumer are spending debt like crazy.  Many of us here have taken advantage of that for quite a while now.  For now our dollars of profit are just as real as their debt.  Who knows how much longer the big Ponzi scheme can go.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 14, 2020, 05:25:09 AM

Quote from: Dicey on February 14, 2020, 05:06:02 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 14, 2020, 04:01:06 AM

Do you know the "Retired Syd" blog?  She doesn't update very much any more (because she's retired, natch) but the market crashed just after she quit work and her posts from around that time are a reassuring read (of course, the market also recovered very quickly that time, so all turned out fine: but nonetheless she writes some good stuff about the psychology of it).

OMG, another Retired Syd fan!  I loved that blog! I was so happy to see a couple of recent (-ish) updates and to learn that she's still doing well. Here's a link:
https://retiredsyd.typepad.com/

She is fab!! I just found the updates last week and it was lovely to catch up!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 14, 2020, 05:53:26 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 14, 2020, 05:25:09 AM

Quote from: Dicey on February 14, 2020, 05:06:02 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 14, 2020, 04:01:06 AM

Do you know the "Retired Syd" blog?  She doesn't update very much any more (because she's retired, natch) but the market crashed just after she quit work and her posts from around that time are a reassuring read (of course, the market also recovered very quickly that time, so all turned out fine: but nonetheless she writes some good stuff about the psychology of it).

OMG, another Retired Syd fan!  I loved that blog! I was so happy to see a couple of recent (-ish) updates and to learn that she's still doing well. Here's a link:
https://retiredsyd.typepad.com/

She is fab!! I just found the updates last week and it was lovely to catch up!

It really helped that she was a bona-fide financial professional and knew what she was talking about. I also loved that she lives in the super HCOLA Bay Area and still made it happen.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 14, 2020, 06:33:10 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 14, 2020, 05:20:41 AM

I've started the alignment to retire and really want to see some significant crash before quitting.  Working in the Petro/chemical business you know pretty much when things are slowing. The refineries are feeling the China problems as well as the disruption of demographics.  People are driving less miles per person.  I'm in chemical manufacturing and thus far our issues have been lack of raw material supply. We've had major on-site equipment repair and new construction which has temporarily slowed our production.  Demand thus far is strong as well as pricing.  We make polyurethane, inventory is low and demand is still high.  There will be no deep recession until demand for our products levels and drops.  That however doesn't have much to do with panic drops in the market.   Ten to twenty percent swings at this level could be considered chatter and noise.  We aren't seeing that yet because the government and the consumer are spending debt like crazy.  Many of us here have taken advantage of that for quite a while now.  For now our dollars of profit are just as real as their debt.  Who knows how much longer the big Ponzi scheme can go.

I was just talking to the CEO of the tech startup where I am working. He said that he could still raise additional money quite easily if necessary. And this despite the WeWork debacle and the miserable state of some of the newly public tech-related companies like Uber and Lyft. So there is still a lot of appetite for risk and big money is still sloshing around.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 14, 2020, 10:26:30 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 14, 2020, 04:01:06 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 12, 2020, 10:06:37 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on February 12, 2020, 08:15:17 PM

Well because of the frothy stock market my liquid assets crossed the $2 million mark, to $2,007,000

On top of that I have another $425,000 in equity.

The Top is In.  The market will promptly crash now.

Sorry for the minor correction, but a crash is scheduled for mid next month when I will be quitting work for good.

Mark your calendars, folks.

Congratulations on your impending freedom!!

Do you know the "Retired Syd" blog?  She doesn't update very much any more (because she's retired, natch) but the market crashed just after she quit work and her posts from around that time are a reassuring read (of course, the market also recovered very quickly that time, so all turned out fine: but nonetheless she writes some good stuff about the psychology of it).

I hadn’t heard of the blog before now so thank you for the recommendation. I’ll go check it out now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 14, 2020, 11:29:21 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 14, 2020, 10:26:30 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 14, 2020, 04:01:06 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 12, 2020, 10:06:37 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on February 12, 2020, 08:15:17 PM

Well because of the frothy stock market my liquid assets crossed the $2 million mark, to $2,007,000

On top of that I have another $425,000 in equity.

The Top is In.  The market will promptly crash now.

Sorry for the minor correction, but a crash is scheduled for mid next month when I will be quitting work for good.

Mark your calendars, folks.

Congratulations on your impending freedom!!

Do you know the "Retired Syd" blog?  She doesn't update very much any more (because she's retired, natch) but the market crashed just after she quit work and her posts from around that time are a reassuring read (of course, the market also recovered very quickly that time, so all turned out fine: but nonetheless she writes some good stuff about the psychology of it).

I hadn’t heard of the blog before now so thank you for the recommendation. I’ll go check it out now.

Yea, thats a new one for me as well. Thanks

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on February 18, 2020, 12:24:06 PM

I would like to join. 
I'm at $1.999M since Friday and depending on how today ends, I may be ready to join immediately. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 18, 2020, 04:47:34 PM

Welcome!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: I'm Fred on February 18, 2020, 06:17:27 PM

Quote from: BlueHouse on February 18, 2020, 12:24:06 PM

I would like to join. 
I'm at $1.999M since Friday and depending on how today ends, I may be ready to join immediately.

Sell something on Craigslist and put yourself over the top.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 18, 2020, 06:58:53 PM

Sorry we can't talk to you until you have $2M.. JK.. Welcome..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 19, 2020, 01:34:59 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on February 18, 2020, 12:24:06 PM

I would like to join. 
I'm at $1.999M since Friday and depending on how today ends, I may be ready to join immediately.

The one million Mark was no big deal.  Jumped over the line almost without notice.  To get to two million I pushed, pulled and dragged anything to add up.  I included my cash balance pension, home value, whatever to make the cut.  Finally, nothing but equities are required to count to two million.  You'll be amazed now how fast it starts to build.  Welcome to the advanced class.  From now on, if you so choose, you'll always be a millionaire.  Most likely a many multiple millionaire.  Now you can think of generational wealth, legacy funds and dreamy retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 19, 2020, 02:25:25 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 26, 2019, 08:21:38 PM

Not a very Mustacian day for me.  I went and did it, I  bought a  new bicycle.  I just ordered a Trek Stache 7 mountain bike.  I got it on the 2019 clearance sale and saved about $500.  At nearly a 20% drop in price I bought it. I hope to in 2021, travel on this bike 2,700 miles and 185,000 feet of elevation climbing from the Canadian to Mexican border.  The offroad route is newly established and called the Wild West Route.  FIRE is coming!

Ok.  I love this bike, even though I've only put about 1000 miles on it and almost all on pavement.  So, pavement.  Most of my time on pavement.  I'm turning 3 inch wide and almost 3 feet tall wheels on pavement.  Time for another nonmustacian moment. I have a vintage, but nice road bike.  I do ride it for day trips without gear.  But, it isn't beefy enough for my 6'4" bulk and gear.  I'm going to have to increase the stable by at least one more bike.  I need a road touring bike.  Right now the Trek 520 is at the top of my list.
 The Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker, Kona Sutra and Salsa Marrakesh are also in consideration.  Hopefully I will do all or part of the 444 mile Natchez Trace Parkway this Spring.  Anybody own any of these bikes?  Suggestions?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 19, 2020, 04:37:09 AM

I don't want to distract from the bike question, but I have another question I'm going to throw out in parallel!

I've been reading ERN SWR stuff on glide path, and it kind of appeals to me given current stock market valuations.  Coincidentally I am very underinvested at present, so I can actually keep moving into equities and still have a glide path towards equities during my early retirement years if I don't go crazy...
https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/09/13/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-19-equity-glidepaths/

But just wondered if anybody else here is doing this - or more generally how you are managing asset allocation?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 19, 2020, 05:52:13 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 19, 2020, 04:37:09 AM

I don't want to distract from the bike question, but I have another question I'm going to throw out in parallel!

I've been reading ERN SWR stuff on glide path, and it kind of appeals to me given current stock market valuations.  Coincidentally I am very underinvested at present, so I can actually keep moving into equities and still have a glide path towards equities during my early retirement years if I don't go crazy...
https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/09/13/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-19-equity-glidepaths/

But just wondered if anybody else here is doing this - or more generally how you are managing asset allocation?

I definitely have been influenced by the concept of a glide path and have reduced my household's stock exposure from approximately 80% to 60% progressively over the past couple of years.

One thought that has gone through my mind however is that perhaps I am being too cautious. Although I am retiring this year, my (highly paid) wife is planning to work as long as she can (which could be five years or more). Consequently, I do not expect to have to draw on our savings for a bit, if all goes well. So perhaps my move to reduce equity exposure is premature? On the other hand, I feel a lot happier this way...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on February 19, 2020, 06:30:27 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 19, 2020, 04:37:09 AM

I don't want to distract from the bike question, but I have another question I'm going to throw out in parallel!

I've been reading ERN SWR stuff on glide path, and it kind of appeals to me given current stock market valuations.  Coincidentally I am very underinvested at present, so I can actually keep moving into equities and still have a glide path towards equities during my early retirement years if I don't go crazy...
https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/09/13/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-19-equity-glidepaths/

But just wondered if anybody else here is doing this - or more generally how you are managing asset allocation?

Sounds like you’re talking about a reverse glide path - a glide path generally refers to decreasing equity exposure as you get older.

I’ve been on a reverse glide path more or less since January 2018. I dropped to 36% equities. I have been taking my withdrawals from the fixed income side while reinvesting equity dividends. Thanks to Mr. Market, plus a transfer of 4% into ex-US small-caps to diversify my equity portfolio, it’s already back up to over 50%. I plan to let it run for a while.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 19, 2020, 07:02:48 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2020, 02:25:25 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 26, 2019, 08:21:38 PM

Not a very Mustacian day for me.  I went and did it, I  bought a  new bicycle.  I just ordered a Trek Stache 7 mountain bike.  I got it on the 2019 clearance sale and saved about $500.  At nearly a 20% drop in price I bought it. I hope to in 2021, travel on this bike 2,700 miles and 185,000 feet of elevation climbing from the Canadian to Mexican border.  The offroad route is newly established and called the Wild West Route.  FIRE is coming!

Ok.  I love this bike, even though I've only put about 1000 miles on it and almost all on pavement.  So, pavement.  Most of my time on pavement.  I'm turning 3 inch wide and almost 3 feet tall wheels on pavement.  Time for another nonmustacian moment. I have a vintage, but nice road bike.  I do ride it for day trips without gear.  But, it isn't beefy enough for my 6'4" bulk and gear.  I'm going to have to increase the stable by at least one more bike.  I need a road touring bike.  Right now the Trek 520 is at the top of my list.
 The Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker, Kona Sutra and Salsa Marrakesh are also in consideration.  Hopefully I will do all or part of the 444 mile Natchez Trace Parkway this Spring.  Anybody own any of these bikes?  Suggestions?

Paging @Retire-Canada, @FIRE_at_45, @Chaplin, @Stasher... hmmm, there are others, but this crew should set you on the right path...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 19, 2020, 07:22:45 AM

On th reverse glidepath discussion that is nominally what our plan is. We are at 60% equities now since I will be FIREing in a couple of weeks (!!) and my husband won’t be too far behind me.

In practice what I’d really like to do is follow the spreadsheet companion to McClung’s book Living Off Your Money since his analysis says the preferred method he pulled out of his absolute textbook of modeling is better than even the reverse glidepath.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 19, 2020, 08:27:38 AM

I hadn't come across that book yet - is it worth buying do you think?  I could see if the library have it but I'm thinking it's quite unlikely, and looks like it might be one you would want to refer back to :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 19, 2020, 09:04:51 AM

I am interested in what others' views of AA equity/bond percentages as their NW gets into the "beyond" levels? 


My feeling has been that keeping a cash cushion of x-years and 100% equity index funds will likely perform as well over time as complicating it adding bonds & real estate to the mix, which would require regular rebalancing (not to mention the variety of other concerns with real estate).


Is there a NW level that you feel this becomes as good a plan as any?  If so, where do you see the threshold for yourself?




Maybe I'm being naive or lazy, but I just want it to be simple.  Feel free to set me straight if I need it.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on February 19, 2020, 09:29:36 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on February 19, 2020, 09:04:51 AM

I am interested in what others' views of AA equity/bond percentages as their NW gets into the "beyond" levels? 


My feeling has been that keeping a cash cushion of x-years and 100% equity index funds will likely perform as well over time as complicating it adding bonds & real estate to the mix, which would require regular rebalancing (not to mention the variety of other concerns with real estate).


Is there a NW level that you feel this becomes as good a plan as any?  If so, where do you see the threshold for yourself?




Maybe I'm being naive or lazy, but I just want it to be simple.  Feel free to set me straight if I need it.  ;)

There’s a report from Credit Suisse that describes the investments of their high net worth and ultra high net worth customers.  They seem to be at around 45/45/10 where the 10 is “other” (gold, alternatives, etc).

I hear you on your thinking about ramping up your stock allocation in order to maximize long term return. That makes super duper sense to me especially if the X in x-years is close to your life expectancy.  However, it’s not all about maximizing expected return... you also want to sleep well at night.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: oldladystache on February 19, 2020, 10:15:15 AM

Seems to me that once you have 15 years expenses in stocks and 15 years expenses in bonds it doesn't make any difference what you do with the rest of your money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: lhamo on February 19, 2020, 10:31:02 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2020, 02:25:25 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 26, 2019, 08:21:38 PM

Not a very Mustacian day for me.  I went and did it, I  bought a  new bicycle.  I just ordered a Trek Stache 7 mountain bike.  I got it on the 2019 clearance sale and saved about $500.  At nearly a 20% drop in price I bought it. I hope to in 2021, travel on this bike 2,700 miles and 185,000 feet of elevation climbing from the Canadian to Mexican border.  The offroad route is newly established and called the Wild West Route.  FIRE is coming!

Ok.  I love this bike, even though I've only put about 1000 miles on it and almost all on pavement.  So, pavement.  Most of my time on pavement.  I'm turning 3 inch wide and almost 3 feet tall wheels on pavement.  Time for another nonmustacian moment. I have a vintage, but nice road bike.  I do ride it for day trips without gear.  But, it isn't beefy enough for my 6'4" bulk and gear.  I'm going to have to increase the stable by at least one more bike.  I need a road touring bike.  Right now the Trek 520 is at the top of my list.
 The Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker, Kona Sutra and Salsa Marrakesh are also in consideration.  Hopefully I will do all or part of the 444 mile Natchez Trace Parkway this Spring.  Anybody own any of these bikes?  Suggestions?

We considered the Surly/Kona/Salsa options but ended up going with the REI adv 1.1 -- largely because we were not sure they would be good fits for us and REI has a very generous 1 year no questions asked return policy, vs. the 30 days of all the other local bike shops.  I have been very happy with mine, DH less so because he has a funny body shape and has had trouble getting the bike fitted properly -- he keeps ending up with pain in either his knees or his back. 

One thing we have been warned about, but have not yet experienced, is that if you have trouble with the disc brakes and are not near an REI it may take time to get them fixed.  Not sure how available the parts are outside of REI.  But that is only an issue for long-distance or international trips for us -- we have several REI stores near us, including the Seattle flagship. 

We stacked a $200 bonus for signing up for the REI credit card on top of the dividend and a special dividend bonus weekend to save about $600 off the list price.  You can do even better if you manage to time the purchase for one of their annual sales (first half of May is the next one, I think -- the co-op series is typically 20-25% off during those two weeks)

Oh, one nice bonus of the REI credit card -- it has cell phone insurance built in up to $600/phone, $1000/year as long as you pay the phone bill with the card.  Haven't had to use it yet, but nice perk.  I can PM you a referral that would get you an extra bonus (I think a $20 gift card) if you want to apply for one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 19, 2020, 11:08:24 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 19, 2020, 08:27:38 AM

I hadn't come across that book yet - is it worth buying do you think?  I could see if the library have it but I'm thinking it's quite unlikely, and looks like it might be one you would want to refer back to :)

My library didn’t have it and has requested every request I have ever made for new books, so I ended up buying it. I’m glad I did because I did a lot of underlining and noting in the columns. It feels more like a textbook, something I want to go back and reference in the future.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 19, 2020, 11:10:20 AM

Quote from: jeroly on February 19, 2020, 09:29:36 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on February 19, 2020, 09:04:51 AM

I am interested in what others' views of AA equity/bond percentages as their NW gets into the "beyond" levels? 


My feeling has been that keeping a cash cushion of x-years and 100% equity index funds will likely perform as well over time as complicating it adding bonds & real estate to the mix, which would require regular rebalancing (not to mention the variety of other concerns with real estate).


Is there a NW level that you feel this becomes as good a plan as any?  If so, where do you see the threshold for yourself?




Maybe I'm being naive or lazy, but I just want it to be simple.  Feel free to set me straight if I need it.  ;)

There’s a report from Credit Suisse that describes the investments of their high net worth and ultra high net worth customers.  They seem to be at around 45/45/10 where the 10 is “other” (gold, alternatives, etc).

I hear you on your thinking about ramping up your stock allocation in order to maximize long term return. That makes super duper sense to me especially if the X in x-years is close to your life expectancy.  However, it’s not all about maximizing expected return... you also want to sleep well at night.

There is also an aspect of “so what?” once you have passed Enough. I can see it both ways: you can take more risk because you have enough but you also have no reason to chase returns, as you already have enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 19, 2020, 11:42:56 AM

Given you really have minimal risk of going bust you may as well invest everything in stocks and shoot for max returns.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 19, 2020, 01:45:44 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 19, 2020, 11:08:24 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 19, 2020, 08:27:38 AM

I hadn't come across that book yet - is it worth buying do you think?  I could see if the library have it but I'm thinking it's quite unlikely, and looks like it might be one you would want to refer back to :)

My library didn’t have it and has requested every request I have ever made for new books, so I ended up buying it. I’m glad I did because I did a lot of underlining and noting in the columns. It feels more like a textbook, something I want to go back and reference in the future.

Is that a Stupid Spellcheck Substitution for "rejected"? Have you tried getting things through the Link Plus system? It takes longer, but they draw from a much larger pool and usually come through.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 19, 2020, 02:04:41 PM

Quote from: Retire-Canada on February 19, 2020, 07:09:11 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2020, 02:25:25 AM

Anybody own any of these bikes?  Suggestions?

I have a Surly Krampus similar to the Stache and a Surly Long Haul Trucker touring bike. Personally I'd just swap different tires on the Stache and tour on it. Surly Knards roll well on pavement/hardpacked dirt trails. If you want to be able to switch modes quickly and easily get a second wheelset and keep the Knards on the road wheels and your more aggressive dirt tires on the other wheels for trail riding.

I love the Krampus for crushing road miles and once I gave it a try found that it works so well I rarely use my LHT or my dedicated road bike [Surly Straggler]. I'm definitely selling the LHT and if I don't use the Straggler more in FIRE it's going as well. The Krampus is staying for sure.

 
The Krampus is a beast!  I know you must love it.  I highly considered the ECR when getting my Stache.  I really want a road bike based steel frame drop bar bike.  I want it to be light gravel capable, but mostly a pavement roller.  I would load up that LHT right now and head to Florida.   Thanks for the feedback.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on February 19, 2020, 02:12:47 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 19, 2020, 11:42:56 AM

Given you really have minimal risk of going bust you may as well invest everything in stocks and shoot for max returns.

Glide path?  We don't need no stinking glide path.

I have roughly 10% in cash and the remainder is 95% equities.  The last 5% is bonds and other random investments.  I count my eventual SS income as the fixed income portion of my portfolio.  The cash is available for emergencies and oh shit events.  Our WR is <2% so I am not too worried about a drop. We can coast for a long time on the cash reserves.

It this the most optimal allocation?  Not really but it keeps me happy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 19, 2020, 02:15:48 PM

Quote from: lhamo on February 19, 2020, 10:31:02 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2020, 02:25:25 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 26, 2019, 08:21:38 PM

Not a very Mustacian day for me.  I went and did it, I  bought a  new bicycle.  I just ordered a Trek Stache 7 mountain bike.  I got it on the 2019 clearance sale and saved about $500.  At nearly a 20% drop in price I bought it. I hope to in 2021, travel on this bike 2,700 miles and 185,000 feet of elevation climbing from the Canadian to Mexican border.  The offroad route is newly established and called the Wild West Route.  FIRE is coming!

Ok.  I love this bike, even though I've only put about 1000 miles on it and almost all on pavement.  So, pavement.  Most of my time on pavement.  I'm turning 3 inch wide and almost 3 feet tall wheels on pavement.  Time for another nonmustacian moment. I have a vintage, but nice road bike.  I do ride it for day trips without gear.  But, it isn't beefy enough for my 6'4" bulk and gear.  I'm going to have to increase the stable by at least one more bike.  I need a road touring bike.  Right now the Trek 520 is at the top of my list.
 The Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker, Kona Sutra and Salsa Marrakesh are also in consideration.  Hopefully I will do all or part of the 444 mile Natchez Trace Parkway this Spring.  Anybody own any of these bikes?  Suggestions?

We considered the Surly/Kona/Salsa options but ended up going with the REI adv 1.1 -- largely because we were not sure they would be good fits for us and REI has a very generous 1 year no questions asked return policy, vs. the 30 days of all the other local bike shops.  I have been very happy with mine, DH less so because he has a funny body shape and has had trouble getting the bike fitted properly -- he keeps ending up with pain in either his knees or his back. 

One thing we have been warned about, but have not yet experienced, is that if you have trouble with the disc brakes and are not near an REI it may take time to get them fixed.  Not sure how available the parts are outside of REI.  But that is only an issue for long-distance or international trips for us -- we have several REI stores near us, including the Seattle flagship. 

We stacked a $200 bonus for signing up for the REI credit card on top of the dividend and a special dividend bonus weekend to save about $600 off the list price.  You can do even better if you manage to time the purchase for one of their annual sales (first half of May is the next one, I think -- the co-op series is typically 20-25% off during those two weeks)

Oh, one nice bonus of the REI credit card -- it has cell phone insurance built in up to $600/phone, $1000/year as long as you pay the phone bill with the card.  Haven't had to use it yet, but nice perk.  I can PM you a referral that would get you an extra bonus (I think a $20 gift card) if you want to apply for one.

Wow that's a sweet deal.  I have looked at the REI bikes several times online.  We have a Tampa store so I could pick one up near Florida home.  Most likely unless a great used deal comes about on an extra large, I'll be using a local New Orleans shop.  I know a guy there that races bikepacking races and gas built, raced and sold a ton of bikes.  So I'm going to use his knowledge as best as possible.   Have fun out there!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 19, 2020, 03:13:05 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 19, 2020, 11:08:24 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 19, 2020, 08:27:38 AM

I hadn't come across that book yet - is it worth buying do you think?  I could see if the library have it but I'm thinking it's quite unlikely, and looks like it might be one you would want to refer back to :)

My library didn’t have it and has requested every request I have ever made for new books, so I ended up buying it. I’m glad I did because I did a lot of underlining and noting in the columns. It feels more like a textbook, something I want to go back and reference in the future.

Thanks!! I have some Amazon points from a work thing so I might treat myself!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 19, 2020, 04:55:28 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 19, 2020, 01:45:44 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 19, 2020, 11:08:24 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 19, 2020, 08:27:38 AM

I hadn't come across that book yet - is it worth buying do you think?  I could see if the library have it but I'm thinking it's quite unlikely, and looks like it might be one you would want to refer back to :)

My library didn’t have it and has requested every request I have ever made for new books, so I ended up buying it. I’m glad I did because I did a lot of underlining and noting in the columns. It feels more like a textbook, something I want to go back and reference in the future.

Is that a Stupid Spellcheck Substitution for "rejected"? Have you tried getting things through the Link Plus system? It takes longer, but they draw from a much larger pool and usually come through.

Arg, yes. Good catch. I meant rejected.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 19, 2020, 04:56:51 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on February 19, 2020, 02:12:47 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 19, 2020, 11:42:56 AM

Given you really have minimal risk of going bust you may as well invest everything in stocks and shoot for max returns.

Glide path?  We don't need no stinking glide path.

I have roughly 10% in cash and the remainder is 95% equities.  The last 5% is bonds and other random investments.  I count my eventual SS income as the fixed income portion of my portfolio.  The cash is available for emergencies and oh shit events.  Our WR is <2% so I am not too worried about a drop. We can coast for a long time on the cash reserves.

It this the most optimal allocation?  Not really but it keeps me happy.

But come on, dude. With a sub 2% withdrawal date you can keep your stash in beanie babies and be fine. ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on February 19, 2020, 07:05:37 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 19, 2020, 04:56:51 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on February 19, 2020, 02:12:47 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 19, 2020, 11:42:56 AM

Given you really have minimal risk of going bust you may as well invest everything in stocks and shoot for max returns.

Glide path?  We don't need no stinking glide path.

I have roughly 10% in cash and the remainder is 95% equities.  The last 5% is bonds and other random investments.  I count my eventual SS income as the fixed income portion of my portfolio.  The cash is available for emergencies and oh shit events.  Our WR is <2% so I am not too worried about a drop. We can coast for a long time on the cash reserves.

It this the most optimal allocation?  Not really but it keeps me happy.

But come on, dude. With a sub 2% withdrawal date you can keep your stash in beanie babies and be fine. ;-)

But that is what this thread is all about isn't it?  Humble bragging with an XL stache?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 19, 2020, 07:56:17 PM

Hey now, no beating up on those with sub 2% W rates now..;)

I did let DW buy a USED $1700 mountain bike this week!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 19, 2020, 08:20:11 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on February 19, 2020, 07:05:37 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 19, 2020, 04:56:51 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on February 19, 2020, 02:12:47 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 19, 2020, 11:42:56 AM

Given you really have minimal risk of going bust you may as well invest everything in stocks and shoot for max returns.

Glide path?  We don't need no stinking glide path.

I have roughly 10% in cash and the remainder is 95% equities.  The last 5% is bonds and other random investments.  I count my eventual SS income as the fixed income portion of my portfolio.  The cash is available for emergencies and oh shit events.  Our WR is <2% so I am not too worried about a drop. We can coast for a long time on the cash reserves.

It this the most optimal allocation?  Not really but it keeps me happy.

But come on, dude. With a sub 2% withdrawal date you can keep your stash in beanie babies and be fine. ;-)

But that is what this thread is all about isn't it?  Humble bragging with an XL stache?

Of course people in many of the achievement threads are proud, excited, and tend to brag at times.  But I'm always here hoping to learn something too.


I really was curious about whether folks changed their AA ratios as their wealth had grown.  I realize everyone has different needs and goals, depending on any number of factors.


Whenever I read the AA ratios other people online post I'm always wondering what factors they base their decision on.  Just seeing 50/40/10% or 80/20 or 100% means nothing without some context.  What is their situation compared to mine?  What's their NW, age, COL, number of children, their risk tolerance, etc.?   (I'm not saying that I want to know those things, but we all realize our circumstances are varied.)


I'm not asking as a way to brag, but I've assumed that as one's wealth accumulates beyond a certain point their goals & mindset would shift away from their personal needs and more towards philanthropy and/or their legacy.


I've read the Buffett quote about instructing his wife's trustee to place 90% of the funds into an S&P index fund and 10% into government bonds. 
I've seen charts, graphs, and research articles showing that 100% equities have performed as well or better than various stock/bond allocations over long timeframes. 


If a cash/bond cushion is there to help you weather extended market corrections & crashes, why would if need to be larger than your expected needs?  You don't necessarily buy a larger home as each million accumulates, so why more bonds?  (Does that annology make sense?)  That's like being over insured, right?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 19, 2020, 08:58:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 19, 2020, 07:56:17 PM

Hey now, no beating up on those with sub 2% W rates now..;)

I did let DW buy a USED $1700 mountain bike this week!

Hey!  That's great.  I was trying to have a nice bike discussion and it all turned into glidepaths.  Y'all went like three days without a dang post.  Now everybody wants to talk finance.  We all got 2 million+ bucks dammit.  You done won the battle.  Now lets ride our damn bikes!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 19, 2020, 09:57:57 PM

I do ride my bike! Every day in fact. I my ebike.

On thé AA discussion we are at 60/40 now but plan to ramp back up over time. It is just hedging against SOR risk right now that keeps us more in bonds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on February 20, 2020, 12:11:51 AM

Finally made it to this thread! I wasn't expecting to be here so soon, but I fully expect to be kicked out the door by the impending market correction. In any case, stonks! It's good to be a multimillionaire!

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 20, 2020, 12:49:31 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2020, 08:58:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 19, 2020, 07:56:17 PM

Hey now, no beating up on those with sub 2% W rates now..;)

I did let DW buy a USED $1700 mountain bike this week!

Hey!  That's great.  I was trying to have a nice bike discussion and it all turned into glidepaths.  Y'all went like three days without a dang post.  Now everybody wants to talk finance.  We all got 2 million+ bucks dammit.  You done won the battle.  Now lets ride our damn bikes!

Sorry Bateaux

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 20, 2020, 02:24:45 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on February 20, 2020, 12:11:51 AM

Finally made it to this thread! I wasn't expecting to be here so soon, but I fully expect to be kicked out the door by the impending market correction. In any case, stonks! It's good to be a multimillionaire!

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
...
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43

Wow - there must be quite a story behind this! How did you achieve this?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on February 20, 2020, 02:31:09 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 20, 2020, 02:24:45 AM

Wow - there must be quite a story behind this! How did you achieve this?

Basically, I got a high paying job straight out of college and then started saving and investing almost everything from that point on. I learned to live extremely frugally. My annual expenses have averaged less than $10K for my entire working career, but my income is many times that.

I've been journaling for most of this time if you want to read more:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/herbert-derp's-frugal-adventures/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on February 20, 2020, 04:20:53 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 19, 2020, 07:56:17 PM

I did let DW buy a USED $1700 mountain bike this week!

let...

hahahaha

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 20, 2020, 06:09:17 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on February 20, 2020, 02:31:09 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 20, 2020, 02:24:45 AM

Wow - there must be quite a story behind this! How did you achieve this?

Basically, I got a high paying job straight out of college and then started saving and investing almost everything from that point on. I learned to live extremely frugally. My annual expenses have averaged less than $10K for my entire working career, but my income is many times that.

I've been journaling for most of this time if you want to read more:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/herbert-derp's-frugal-adventures/

Caught up with your journal and it is quite an epic :-) Congratulations on achieving this level so quickly!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on February 20, 2020, 06:55:48 AM

Quote from: Threshkin on February 19, 2020, 07:05:37 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 19, 2020, 04:56:51 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on February 19, 2020, 02:12:47 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 19, 2020, 11:42:56 AM

Given you really have minimal risk of going bust you may as well invest everything in stocks and shoot for max returns.

Glide path?  We don't need no stinking glide path.

But come on, dude. With a sub 2% withdrawal date you can keep your stash in beanie babies and be fine. ;-)

But that is what this thread is all about isn't it?  Humble bragging with an XL stache?

:-)

80% equities here. But the 20% covers >10 years of 3 kids-in-grade-school level expenditures. Yeah, we don't need to take risk...we have the capacity to take risk.

The non-equities bit is a mix of cash, ibonds and Vanguard total bond.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on February 20, 2020, 07:13:02 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 18, 2020, 06:58:53 PM

Sorry we can't talk to you until you have $2M.. JK.. Welcome..:)

I'm in!  Officially.  Yesterday my account was fluctuating and I checked it multiple times to see if I could come in.  Wasn't until I checked this morning (after the index funds update) that I knew I was here.  Whew.  Just barely! 

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2020, 01:34:59 AM

... You'll be amazed now how fast it starts to build.  Welcome to the advanced class.  From now on, if you so choose, you'll always be a millionaire.  Most likely a many multiple millionaire.  Now you can think of generational wealth, legacy funds and dreamy retirement.

this is great inspiration.  Thank you. 

Quote from: I'm Fred on February 18, 2020, 06:17:27 PM

Sell something on Craigslist and put yourself over the top.

Now that I'm here, I will do this if needed to stay in.  I am loathe to go backwards. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on February 20, 2020, 07:33:38 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on February 20, 2020, 02:31:09 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 20, 2020, 02:24:45 AM

Wow - there must be quite a story behind this! How did you achieve this?

Basically, I got a high paying job straight out of college and then started saving and investing almost everything from that point on. I learned to live extremely frugally. My annual expenses have averaged less than $10K for my entire working career, but my income is many times that.

I've been journaling for most of this time if you want to read more:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/herbert-derp's-frugal-adventures/

That is great progress!    Frugality pays off quickly. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 20, 2020, 09:18:04 AM

Herbert Derp & BlueHouse,


Welcome to the club.  Your bicycle discount cards should be arriving shortly.  ;) 

Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 20, 2020, 10:53:54 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on February 20, 2020, 07:13:02 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 18, 2020, 06:58:53 PM

Sorry we can't talk to you until you have $2M.. JK.. Welcome..:)

I'm in!  Officially.  Yesterday my account was fluctuating and I checked it multiple times to see if I could come in.  Wasn't until I checked this morning (after the index funds update) that I knew I was here.  Whew.  Just barely! 

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2020, 01:34:59 AM

... You'll be amazed now how fast it starts to build.  Welcome to the advanced class.  From now on, if you so choose, you'll always be a millionaire.  Most likely a many multiple millionaire.  Now you can think of generational wealth, legacy funds and dreamy retirement.

this is great inspiration.  Thank you. 

Quote from: I'm Fred on February 18, 2020, 06:17:27 PM

Sell something on Craigslist and put yourself over the top.

Now that I'm here, I will do this if needed to stay in.  I am loathe to go backwards.

Just stop looking closely for the next several months, or until you are sure you are well over. :)

My sister firmly believes in the “bury your head in the sand” approach to her investments as she knows if she looked all the time it would stress her out. So she invests regularly but otherwise ignores it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 20, 2020, 11:02:42 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on February 20, 2020, 12:11:51 AM

Finally made it to this thread! I wasn't expecting to be here so soon, but I fully expect to be kicked out the door by the impending market correction. In any case, stonks! It's good to be a multimillionaire!

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43

You went from basically nothing to $2M in 8 years!.. Geez, what do you do.... Rob banks?...:)

Seriously thats a heck of a rise. Now clearly you have a monster salary so if you work another 10 years then.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 20, 2020, 11:12:10 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on February 20, 2020, 04:20:53 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 19, 2020, 07:56:17 PM

I did let DW buy a USED $1700 mountain bike this week!

let...

hahahaha

Yeah there was no "Let" involved.. and nor should there be..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on February 20, 2020, 12:11:43 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on February 20, 2020, 12:11:51 AM

12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43

Thats nearly a 400k increase in 2 months. The S&P 500 returned about 7% over that same time period. There are some serious outside cash flows rolling in to make that possible! I’m assuming you get some nice bonuses? Congrats!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 20, 2020, 01:55:19 PM

Quote from: carstenjames on February 20, 2020, 12:11:43 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on February 20, 2020, 12:11:51 AM

12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43

Thats nearly a 400k increase in 2 months. The S&P 500 returned about 7% over that same time period. There are some serious outside cash flows rolling in to make that possible! I’m assuming you get some nice bonuses? Congrats!

I’m guessing Herbert works for Tesla!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 20, 2020, 04:52:50 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 20, 2020, 01:55:19 PM

Quote from: carstenjames on February 20, 2020, 12:11:43 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on February 20, 2020, 12:11:51 AM

12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43

Thats nearly a 400k increase in 2 months. The S&P 500 returned about 7% over that same time period. There are some serious outside cash flows rolling in to make that possible! I’m assuming you get some nice bonuses? Congrats!

I’m guessing Herbert works for Tesla!

Ahh.  That would mesh perfectly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on February 20, 2020, 05:38:16 PM

I can neither confirm nor deny these allegations

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 20, 2020, 05:42:14 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on February 20, 2020, 05:38:16 PM

I can neither confirm nor deny these allegations

You're way younger than many of us but, you're going to fit in perfectly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on February 21, 2020, 04:03:24 AM

Well for one day our total NW was just over 3M. But yesterday’s little dip fixed that.
Of course that includes a conservative estimate of $95k in home equity. Don’t plan on selling or moving.
Regardless, our AA is 85% equities, 10% bonds, 5% cash. It can make for a wild ride, which could certainly be scary after I RE in May.  But since we are only 42 I think it only makes sense to have a high allocation to equities. The cash is about 2.5 years of expenses which should give us time in a downturn.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 21, 2020, 11:41:27 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 21, 2020, 04:03:24 AM

Well for one day our total NW was just over 3M. But yesterday’s little dip fixed that.
Of course that includes a conservative estimate of $95k in home equity. Don’t plan on selling or moving.
Regardless, our AA is 85% equities, 10% bonds, 5% cash. It can make for a wild ride, which could certainly be scary after I RE in May.  But since we are only 42 I think it only makes sense to have a high allocation to equities. The cash is about 2.5 years of expenses which should give us time in a downturn.

I think you might be ok.. Just..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 21, 2020, 12:11:45 PM

I moved quite a bit of cash from my Vanguard MM settlement fund into VIGAX yesterday.  I checked it this morning to confirm it went through & see if it had lost or gained anything, but now I'm thinking it wouldn't show either until today's close, right?


Anyway they gave me 3 pennies extra for some reason.  Wonder what that's about?  Is that the online equivalent to a free lolly-pop?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 21, 2020, 11:24:55 PM

All the talk of cycling in these parts must have affected me subliminally. I dusted off my old steed and made it out for a ride twice this past week. Just 20kms each time, so not so far, but far enough to know I am extremely unfit... well I knew that just lying on the sofa.

 I have piled on the weight these past 6 years living in The UAE and need to make some efforts this year to get FIRE fit. I figure if I can just commit to cycling for an hour 3 times a week it will be a good start.

It is probably surprising to those of you who haven’t spent time in the Midlde East, but cycling is massively popular here. Hard to believe huh!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 22, 2020, 04:10:12 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 21, 2020, 11:24:55 PM

All the talk of cycling in these parts must have affected me subliminally. I dusted off my old steed and made it out for a ride twice this past week. Just 20kms each time, so not so far, but far enough to know I am extremely unfit... well I knew that just lying on the sofa.

 I have piled on the weight these past 6 years living in The UAE and need to make some efforts this year to get FIRE fit. I figure if I can just commit to cycling for an hour 3 times a week it will be a good start.

It is probably surprising to those of you who haven’t spent time in the Midlde East, but cycling is massively popular here. Hard to believe huh!

Enjoy your bike!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 22, 2020, 02:45:17 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 21, 2020, 11:24:55 PM

All the talk of cycling in these parts must have affected me subliminally. I dusted off my old steed and made it out for a ride twice this past week. Just 20kms each time, so not so far, but far enough to know I am extremely unfit... well I knew that just lying on the sofa.

 I have piled on the weight these past 6 years living in The UAE and need to make some efforts this year to get FIRE fit. I figure if I can just commit to cycling for an hour 3 times a week it will be a good start.

It is probably surprising to those of you who haven’t spent time in the Midlde East, but cycling is massively popular here. Hard to believe huh!

That does seem a bit surprising to me. Isn’t it a million degrees over there most of the time?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 22, 2020, 09:08:52 PM

In fact the weather is lovely for 8 months of the year. For 4 months a year it’s like living inside a furnace.... even in the summer months cycling is popular though. You just need to be done before 8am. After that it’s unbearable.

At the moment the weather is 22 degrees celsius or 70 degrees Fahrenheit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 23, 2020, 07:59:23 PM

At the risk of getting banned, I'm making another bicycle post.  A younger, stronger and faster co-worker just suggested we head over to my house in Florida and ride 300 miles of forest, jungle, swamps and bike trails.  The route is a loop through central Florida that passes a couple of miles from our house.  It's the Huracan 300 race route.  I may die!   Watching the intro to the movie "127 Hours right now to get pumped up!"  This happens the first week of April.  I'm not fooling.



https://bikepacking.com/event/huracan-300-challenge-2020/
[urlhttps://bikepacking.com/event/huracan-300-challenge-2020/url]

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 23, 2020, 09:12:44 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 23, 2020, 07:59:23 PM

At the risk of getting banned, I'm making another bicycle post.  A younger, stronger and faster co-worker just suggested we head over to my house in Florida and ride 300 miles of forest, jungle, swamps and bike trails.  The route is a loop through central Florida that passes a couple of miles from our house.  It's the Huracan 300 race route.  I may die!   Watching the intro to the movie "127 Hours right now to get pumped up!"  This happens the first week of April.  I'm not fooling.

My coworkers were telling me I should sign up for the 401k.  I told them, 'I'm not an idiot, I could never run that far!'.

Good luck Bateaux!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 24, 2020, 10:57:30 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 23, 2020, 09:12:44 PM

My coworkers were telling me I should sign up for the 401k.  I told them, 'I'm not an idiot, I could never run that far!'.

Good luck Bateaux!

Oh dear 🥺

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 24, 2020, 11:19:39 AM

Lol

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 24, 2020, 01:35:09 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 23, 2020, 07:59:23 PM

At the risk of getting banned, I'm making another bicycle post.  A younger, stronger and faster co-worker just suggested we head over to my house in Florida and ride 300 miles of forest, jungle, swamps and bike trails.  The route is a loop through central Florida that passes a couple of miles from our house.  It's the Huracan 300 race route.  I may die!   Watching the intro to the movie "127 Hours right now to get pumped up!"  This happens the first week of April.  I'm not fooling.



https://bikepacking.com/event/huracan-300-challenge-2020/
[urlhttps://bikepacking.com/event/huracan-300-challenge-2020/url]

I'll be right there with ya.  I used to roadrace competitively and took up mountain biking after too many LOL'ing 16 year olds nearly ran me off the road.  I'll watch it on tv (which is what I mean by being right there with ya).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on February 25, 2020, 12:32:10 PM

Always so quiet in here on these big down days.

How's everyone feeling?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on February 25, 2020, 12:39:40 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on February 25, 2020, 12:32:10 PM

Always so quiet in here on these big down days.

How's everyone feeling?

much like how I treat the bathroom scale after a pig-out - I'm ignoring the market until I think I'll like the number better.  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 25, 2020, 01:19:35 PM

Hah!

My husband wants us to invest a chunk of cash that just hit our checking account vais the market is on sale. That is on my To Do list for today

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 25, 2020, 01:39:54 PM

Quote from: bluebelle on February 25, 2020, 12:39:40 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on February 25, 2020, 12:32:10 PM

Always so quiet in here on these big down days.

How's everyone feeling?

much like how I treat the bathroom scale after a pig-out - I'm ignoring the market until I think I'll like the number better.  :-)

Yeah, I'm definitely a fair weather fan... I have CNBC on during the good weeks and avoid it during weeks like this!  Of course, I treat my sports teams the same way I guess...I don't change allegiances when times are bad but it sure is a lot less painful to just look away for a while....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 25, 2020, 01:40:50 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on February 25, 2020, 12:32:10 PM

Always so quiet in here on these big down days.

How's everyone feeling?

Yesterday I lost enough money to buy a nice Tesla Model 3.  By the end of the day, probably enough to buy a Tesla Model S.   By the end of the week, probably a tricked out Tesla Model X 100D.  But, I have a nice bicycle and a 12 year old duct tapped Honda Accord.  No worries.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 25, 2020, 02:32:53 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on February 25, 2020, 12:32:10 PM

Always so quiet in here on these big down days.

How's everyone feeling?

Market has been in 'bubble like' mode for a long time just going up and up without a 20% correction, not feeling very surprised.  I'm just wondering if it will go back to new highs in short order (like December '18 to Jan '19) or if this will become a real shake-out that gets the CAPE back to reasonable levels.  Only time will tell...  not touching anything, other than continuing regular 401k, 529, and ESPP contributions.  Sadly, the US hasn't taken advantage of the good times to run a budget surplus and shrink the Fed balance sheet, so maybe a silver lining will be that this stops the even larger 2020 budget deficit from becoming a reality.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 25, 2020, 02:33:57 PM

Yeah I'm "only" $135,000 down from the recent peak.. no biggie..

I better not mention this to DW..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on February 25, 2020, 03:00:38 PM

@EscapeVelocity2020, we had a 20%+ correction right around the end of 2018.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 25, 2020, 03:15:45 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on February 25, 2020, 03:00:38 PM

@EscapeVelocity2020, we had a 20%+ correction right around the end of 2018.

I think it was 19.8% or something.. I was getting ready to roll 1/3rd of my bond allocation to stocks and I missed it!..:(

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 25, 2020, 03:19:01 PM

I'm too much in cash at the moment, so I'm happy with down (though don't tempt me to calculate my losses.... That wouldn't have occurred to me and now I sort of want to!!)

But feels a bit early and small to really be considered a "sale", so I'll just stick to my previous plan unless something really dramatic happens.

Plus, if Corona really goes pandemic I suspect access to cheap shares will feel like cold comfort...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 25, 2020, 04:14:09 PM

I wouldn’t have noticed the gyrations if my husband hadn’t mentioned something

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 25, 2020, 05:10:31 PM

We're plunging down from the thin air in the stratosphere where, frankly, it's been a little hard to think straight.  After the market loses a bit more percentage with some rough turbulence, we'll level off face the sunshine and the blue skies ahead.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 25, 2020, 07:51:55 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 25, 2020, 03:15:45 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on February 25, 2020, 03:00:38 PM

@EscapeVelocity2020, we had a 20%+ correction right around the end of 2018.

I think it was 19.8% or something.. I was getting ready to roll 1/3rd of my bond allocation to stocks and I missed it!..:(

Yes, that was the dip I was talking about, this might be another one of those.  It was short and fully rebounded within a month, then on to new highs, so it was barely a correction and certainly not a bear market or recession.  I assume the rebound was because the Fed stopped raising rates and became accommodating (going on to cut rates and start QE4), plus we had those generous corporate tax cuts.

Eventually America will have to balance the budget (taxes will have to rise and/or programs will have to be cut), and maybe a recession will help us realize what a mess we are sinking deeper in to.  That more we put that off, the worse the tax increase or program cuts will be.  America will have to prioritize servicing the debt to our bond/treasury holders, since we have become dependent on access to debt.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 25, 2020, 08:22:48 PM

I think I may have made the purchase that broke the elevator.  I don't know what I was thinking, but I chose last Thursday to buy some (as in too much) VIGAX.  It's fallen about 7%, so far. 


Looks like we'll be drinking the cheap stuff for a while...  ;) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 25, 2020, 09:09:50 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 25, 2020, 02:33:57 PM

Yeah I'm "only" $135,000 down from the recent peak.. no biggie..

I better not mention this to DW..:)

Good thing she already got the new bike. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 26, 2020, 02:35:15 AM

Not much to add except that I am cash-heavy compared to most in this forum. My only planned action is to increase my monthly post-tax automated purchase of S&P 500 index. I have had this automatic purchase running unbroken since 1997!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 26, 2020, 06:48:51 AM

We're cash heavy as well. Time to fill up our Roth buckets.

Just wishing I'd ordered those checks from the DAF last week, before we left on vacation. Oh, well, I can hold off sending them for a few more weeks and see what happens. I suppose it wouldn't be a bad time to dump some cash into that as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 26, 2020, 07:55:14 AM

Interesting perspective on NPR this morning.  The economic shock from Covid isn't just a demand side disruption, which the Fed has tools to deal with (making money cheaper and more available).  If a pandemic should take hold, supply chains will be disrupted and now it is a supply side issue.  Even if people want their electronics from China and have the money, the supply will not be there.  Companies have already re-jiggered their supply chains as much as possible due to the tariffs, so there isn't any quick fix left.  So, ironically, the pandemic might just deliver Trump's 'America First' objective of reducing global trade, maybe that is why he doesn't seem to want to address it.

The pandemic would also be good for the environment with less people traveling, slower overall consumption, and having to make things last longer...   so hey, it's not all bad news.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 26, 2020, 07:55:24 AM

My AA target is 50/50.  After these 2 days, I'm at 49.95/51.05.  With everyone's hair on fire, I thought for sure I'd hit a rebalance 5% trigger.  Not even close.

I guess I'm waiting another week.  My ESPP shares vest Monday.  I'll sell Tuesday.  Then decide what I want to do.  I have no plans for the money this time.  I'll move some into BRK/b, I guess. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 26, 2020, 08:01:25 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 26, 2020, 07:55:14 AM

Interesting perspective on NPR this morning.  The economic shock from Covid isn't just a demand side disruption, which the Fed has tools to deal with (making money cheaper and more available).  If a pandemic should take hold, supply chains will be disrupted and now it is a supply side issue.  Even if people want their electronics from China and have the money, the supply will not be there.  Companies have already re-jiggered their supply chains as much as possible due to the tariffs, so there isn't any quick fix left.  So, ironically, the pandemic might just deliver Trump's 'America First' objective of reducing global trade, maybe that is why he doesn't seem to want to address it.

The pandemic would also be good for the environment with less people traveling, slower overall consumption, and having to make things last longer...   so hey, it's not all bad news.

Our company (we make ICs) has programmer boards built in China.  The factory has not re-opened since Lunar New Year.  We're being pro-active, searching our desks for these kits so we can provide them to customers.  Like everyone, we assemble in the Philippines which hasn't been hit.

Travel for training in North America has been addressed.  One big meeting at the mother ship was done completely by web ex.  The next one, instead of travel to the mother ship will be done by region.  Travel to the far east on business has all been cancelled.  Travel of the far east teams within region has all been cancelled.  North American travel to visit customers is still open as is Europe.

What a great plan that the CDC budget was cut.  Wonderful.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on February 26, 2020, 08:02:07 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 26, 2020, 07:55:24 AM

My AA target is 50/50.  After these 2 days, I'm at 49.95/51.05. 

101% invested? Leveraged?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 26, 2020, 10:55:53 AM

There’s always someone to catch minor typos.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 26, 2020, 11:05:47 AM

I have a little cash lying around. Maybe $50K..

I’ve been holding back on putting it to work, just because stocks have been on a “too good to last” run.

I sat on my hands again today, betting on a bit more of a slide over the coming week.

It’s tough not to entertain a little bit of market timing in times like these.

I definitely won’t need the cash in the next couple of years, so i should invest without even a 2nd thought.... but...😬,

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 26, 2020, 03:50:43 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 26, 2020, 08:01:25 AM

Our company (we make ICs) has programmer boards built in China.  The factory has not re-opened since Lunar New Year.  We're being pro-active, searching our desks for these kits so we can provide them to customers.  Like everyone, we assemble in the Philippines which hasn't been hit.

Travel for training in North America has been addressed.  One big meeting at the mother ship was done completely by web ex.  The next one, instead of travel to the mother ship will be done by region.  Travel to the far east on business has all been cancelled.  Travel of the far east teams within region has all been cancelled.  North American travel to visit customers is still open as is Europe.

What a great plan that the CDC budget was cut.  Wonderful.

My wife who works in the pharmaceuticals industry jus told me that many of the generic drugs and the ingredients for them come form China, much of which was produced in the worst affected region. Even the generics that come from India often depend on Chinese ingredients and the supply chains are completely opaque!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on February 26, 2020, 04:44:25 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 26, 2020, 07:55:24 AM

I'll move some into BRK/b, I guess.

It doesn’t get this cheap very often, on a price to book (about 1.25x), or really any other basis. I already have a ridiculous amount. I’m going to be tempted if it gets much lower, though. I hope Warren’s phone is ringing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 27, 2020, 11:43:11 AM

Quote from: jeroly on February 26, 2020, 08:02:07 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 26, 2020, 07:55:24 AM

My AA target is 50/50.  After these 2 days, I'm at 49.95/51.05. 

101% invested? Leveraged?

I've never been good at transcribing.....  According to the spread sheet now, 49.85/50.15. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 27, 2020, 02:20:26 PM

I might consider a rebalance tomorrow.. Using my wet thumb it looks like I should have moved from 75/25 to about 73/27 (stock to bonds).

If the market goes down by 20% I am going to 80/20.

Exciting times..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 27, 2020, 02:40:38 PM

I've been sitting on more cash then usual and will start adding if we get to 15% and it settle in a bit, would be my first move

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 27, 2020, 03:37:24 PM

OK, even I might buy in a bit tomorrow (obviously : cue huge crash thereafter).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 27, 2020, 03:40:44 PM

I have an awesome defense against panicking about this drop in the market.

I'm so damn tired from packing, moving and unpacking I don't have the energy to panic.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: londonbanker on February 27, 2020, 04:38:38 PM

$150k drop in nw over the past week.... do I care? - not much as I am not pulling the FIRE trigger for another couple of years. I still see this as a nice opportunity to buy if we get into bear market. Still 25% liquid overall, that should set me up nicely.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 27, 2020, 04:42:19 PM

Crap, went from 103% FI to 96%...knew I should have hurried up and FIREd last week ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 27, 2020, 04:54:11 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on February 27, 2020, 04:42:19 PM

Crap, went from 103% FI to 96%...knew I should have hurried up and FIREd last week ;-)

I guess you need a safety margin before you FIRE.  I think since this group starts at 2 million, the safety margin is there.  We shouldn't have a market dip much over 20 percent.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 27, 2020, 05:06:31 PM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 27, 2020, 03:37:24 PM

OK, even I might buy in a bit tomorrow (obviously : cue huge crash thereafter).

Ha, yeah, I didn't do everyone a favor when I bought hard in 2008 when everything was down about 15% ... I definitely destined us for the 55% drop at that point ...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 27, 2020, 08:51:52 PM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 27, 2020, 03:37:24 PM

OK, even I might buy in a bit tomorrow (obviously : cue huge crash thereafter).

I'm running very cash heavy.  I just made a major move to cash second week of February.  We really haven't dropped that far yet.  Nobody knows how low we may drop.  I don't believe the virus will be that bad.  However, the hit to trade and consumer spending could be huge.  Thinking I'll keep my powder dry for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 28, 2020, 12:14:43 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 27, 2020, 08:51:52 PM

Quote from: LightTripper on February 27, 2020, 03:37:24 PM

OK, even I might buy in a bit tomorrow (obviously : cue huge crash thereafter).

I'm running very cash heavy.  I just made a major move to cash second week of February.  We really haven't dropped that far yet.  Nobody knows how low we may drop.  I don't believe the virus will be that bad.  However, the hit to trade and consumer spending could be huge.  Thinking I'll keep my powder dry for now.

I'm definitely now t planning to go all in. I think the market was likely overvalued so there's a decent chance we have further to go. But just as a Corona effect where we are seems reasonable, so I'll dip a toe...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 28, 2020, 12:15:08 AM

Not, not now t!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 28, 2020, 03:01:39 AM

If futures maintain as what is the implied open that will put us over 15% so will dip toes today though expecting at least Monday to be down unless we get some miracle news over the weekend.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 28, 2020, 08:15:58 AM

Well 15% has happened!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on February 28, 2020, 09:30:20 AM

Wait till next quarter earnings come out, and global GDP numbers. We still have a loonngg way to go. Not fun trying to catch a falling knife.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 28, 2020, 09:42:33 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on February 28, 2020, 09:30:20 AM

Wait till next quarter earnings come out, and global GDP numbers. We still have a loonngg way to go. Not fun trying to catch a falling knife.

And yet there are still folks on the forum cheering for an even better 'sale' and complaining that it might rebound too fast for them to get their next paycheck in! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 28, 2020, 10:11:23 AM

Well I just checked my pension and found that I am even more in cash than I thought (my provider caps its fees on shares and ETFs and *separately* on funds - and like an idiot I had bought some funds).  Anyway, had got as far as selling out of the funds, but not as far as rebuying the shares. 

Always nice when your own crapness hands you a bit of a win isn't it?  (Or a bit less of a loss, anyway!)

Anyway, work was busy today so missed the market, but assuming no rebound I'll shift about half of it back into the market on Monday and then see what happens.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on February 28, 2020, 10:23:58 AM

With my RE date of May 15th, this market thing is painful.
I just keep reminding myself that DH is still working. I can find some part time work next fall or during the tax season if I really needed to. We are flexible which means it's just paper losses.
But wow.
Ten years ago I was happy that the market dipped. As long as we had jobs we were adding money and it didn't matter what we lost. We didn't even look.
I just keep saying- still young, still healthy, still flexible. Still going to leave this full time rat race and get my life back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 28, 2020, 11:55:03 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 28, 2020, 10:23:58 AM

With my RE date of May 15th, this market thing is painful.
I just keep reminding myself that DH is still working. I can find some part time work next fall or during the tax season if I really needed to. We are flexible which means it's just paper losses.
But wow.
Ten years ago I was happy that the market dipped. As long as we had jobs we were adding money and it didn't matter what we lost. We didn't even look.
I just keep saying- still young, still healthy, still flexible. Still going to leave this full time rat race and get my life back.

We haven't even lost a year's worth of gains is how I look at it.  I'd planned to FIRE in 2018, 2019, 2020 and now not till early 2021.  We're still way above portfolio levels I'd once figured would be enough.   I'm resolute now to wait out the recession.   That will be the best cure for market.  Work a little longer and wait it out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 28, 2020, 12:02:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 28, 2020, 11:55:03 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 28, 2020, 10:23:58 AM

With my RE date of May 15th, this market thing is painful.
I just keep reminding myself that DH is still working. I can find some part time work next fall or during the tax season if I really needed to. We are flexible which means it's just paper losses.
But wow.
Ten years ago I was happy that the market dipped. As long as we had jobs we were adding money and it didn't matter what we lost. We didn't even look.
I just keep saying- still young, still healthy, still flexible. Still going to leave this full time rat race and get my life back.

We haven't even lost a year's worth of gains is how I look at it.  I'd planned to FIRE in 2018, 2019, 2020 and now not till early 2021.  We're still way above portfolio levels I'd once figured would be enough.   I'm resolute now to wait out the recession.   That will be the best cure for market.  Work a little longer and wait it out.

Or NOT work longer and still wait it out..:) I mean, honestly thats all you;re going to do whether working or not.

Assuming you have enough of the savings cushion, or the flexibility to reduce spending then its all good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on February 28, 2020, 12:09:17 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 28, 2020, 12:02:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 28, 2020, 11:55:03 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 28, 2020, 10:23:58 AM

With my RE date of May 15th, this market thing is painful.
I just keep reminding myself that DH is still working. I can find some part time work next fall or during the tax season if I really needed to. We are flexible which means it's just paper losses.
But wow.
Ten years ago I was happy that the market dipped. As long as we had jobs we were adding money and it didn't matter what we lost. We didn't even look.
I just keep saying- still young, still healthy, still flexible. Still going to leave this full time rat race and get my life back.

We haven't even lost a year's worth of gains is how I look at it.  I'd planned to FIRE in 2018, 2019, 2020 and now not till early 2021.  We're still way above portfolio levels I'd once figured would be enough.   I'm resolute now to wait out the recession.   That will be the best cure for market.  Work a little longer and wait it out.

Or NOT work longer and still wait it out..:) I mean, honestly thats all you;re going to do whether working or not.

Assuming you have enough of the savings cushion, or the flexibility to reduce spending then its all good.

Exflyboy, you will probably never know how much your wisdom has helped me. I couldn't agree more.

Bateaux, there is always a reason to OMY. And before you know it you've OMY'd until the end.
And chances are you didn't need as much as you thought anyway.
I'm jumping. Wanna hold my hand and come too?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 28, 2020, 01:03:21 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 28, 2020, 12:09:17 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 28, 2020, 12:02:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 28, 2020, 11:55:03 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 28, 2020, 10:23:58 AM

With my RE date of May 15th, this market thing is painful.
I just keep reminding myself that DH is still working. I can find some part time work next fall or during the tax season if I really needed to. We are flexible which means it's just paper losses.
But wow.
Ten years ago I was happy that the market dipped. As long as we had jobs we were adding money and it didn't matter what we lost. We didn't even look.
I just keep saying- still young, still healthy, still flexible. Still going to leave this full time rat race and get my life back.

We haven't even lost a year's worth of gains is how I look at it.  I'd planned to FIRE in 2018, 2019, 2020 and now not till early 2021.  We're still way above portfolio levels I'd once figured would be enough.   I'm resolute now to wait out the recession.   That will be the best cure for market.  Work a little longer and wait it out.

Or NOT work longer and still wait it out..:) I mean, honestly thats all you;re going to do whether working or not.

Assuming you have enough of the savings cushion, or the flexibility to reduce spending then its all good.

Exflyboy, you will probably never know how much your wisdom has helped me. I couldn't agree more.

Bateaux, there is always a reason to OMY. And before you know it you've OMY'd until the end.
And chances are you didn't need as much as you thought anyway.
I'm jumping. Wanna hold my hand and come too?

You guys have no idea the value I place on your shared thoughts.   Exflyboy is expressing wisdom from his inverted 5,000 foot view.  He's seen the ups and downs, knows we'll eventually raise our ceiling to fly higher.  Beancounter I think you'll do great.  Yes, I'm almost certainly OMY.  There are some matters to work out that having a salary doesn't necessarily fix.  However, having to budget could possibly add more stress right now than working till 2021.  I wish you so much luck on your leap.  Don't leave us when you do.  Keep us posted on how wonderful it is.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 28, 2020, 02:07:47 PM

Well I dipped my toe today*.. of course the market spiked up quite a bit at the close.. So next week it will tank naturally..:)

*Toe dipping was a rebalance back to 75/25.. a 3% move from bonds to stocks

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on February 28, 2020, 06:59:45 PM

I think the market will drop more because of the effects of the epidemic on the disruption to the supply chain and the consumer confidence loss.
This could end up causing a recession.

Over time however, as the virus plays out across the globe, things will gradually return to normalcy. 
But the virus probably will wreck havoc for a few months.

With the way the US has cut our CDC and other global pandemic programs we're definitely behind the curve of preparedness.
Also, the Trump administration will try to prevent any info about the epidemic from getting out.
The result is we will have an epidemic in this country. It will be comparable to the seasonal flu, maybe somewhat more contagious.
This virus however is probably an order of magnitude more deadly than the seasonal flu.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 28, 2020, 08:17:39 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on February 28, 2020, 06:59:45 PM

With the way the US has cut our CDC and other global pandemic programs we're definitely behind the curve of preparedness.
Also, the Trump administration will try to prevent any info about the epidemic from getting out.
The result is we will have an epidemic in this country. It will be comparable to the seasonal flu, maybe somewhat more contagious.
This virus however is probably an order of magnitude more deadly than the seasonal flu.

Apparently that's Plan B for cutting the social security budget.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on February 28, 2020, 08:24:08 PM

I meant to buy today, but I guess I will on Monday.  Just a little here and a little there.    I'm still nibbling on tiny buys with my sparse spare cash-olla.  You folks are the wise ones and I'm a novice... should I buy VOO or a Foreign stock ETF?   Foreign is down... 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on February 28, 2020, 08:38:58 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on February 28, 2020, 08:24:08 PM

I meant to buy today, but I guess I will on Monday.  Just a little here and a little there.    I'm still nibbling on tiny buys with my sparse spare cash-olla.  You folks are the wise ones and I'm a novice... should I buy VOO or a Foreign stock ETF?   Foreign is down...

Buy 80% US, 20% international.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on February 28, 2020, 08:43:44 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on February 28, 2020, 08:38:58 PM

Buy 80% US, 20% international.

In 2018 about 43% of the S&P 500's sales were from foreign countries. Just buying VOO gets you a fair amount of foreign exposure.

https://us.spindices.com/indexology/djia-and-sp-500/sp-500-global-sales

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: RWD on February 28, 2020, 08:52:16 PM

Quote from: carstenjames on February 28, 2020, 08:43:44 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on February 28, 2020, 08:38:58 PM

Buy 80% US, 20% international.

In 2018 about 43% of the S&P 500's sales were from foreign countries. Just buying VOO gets you a fair amount of foreign exposure.

https://us.spindices.com/indexology/djia-and-sp-500/sp-500-global-sales

The international market is only moderately correlated (0.70) with the domestic market. Sometimes it outperforms significantly, sometimes underperforms significantly.
https://www.callan.com/periodic-table/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 28, 2020, 10:56:15 PM

History repeats itself, but not exactly the same:

https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-i/1918-flu-pandemic (https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-i/1918-flu-pandemic)

There could be new areas to invest.  How much could a pharmaceutical company charge (overcharge) for a vaccine to this disease?  They could smile as they took the money and offer how glad they were to help with this outbreak.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 29, 2020, 02:51:01 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on February 28, 2020, 08:24:08 PM

I meant to buy today, but I guess I will on Monday.  Just a little here and a little there.    I'm still nibbling on tiny buys with my sparse spare cash-olla.  You folks are the wise ones and I'm a novice... should I buy VOO or a Foreign stock ETF?   Foreign is down...

I am also nibbling a little. For this past week, I have buying one share of DIA (The Dow 30 ETF) every day at about noon - thank goodness for zero cost trading :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on February 29, 2020, 08:51:19 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 29, 2020, 02:51:01 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on February 28, 2020, 08:24:08 PM

I meant to buy today, but I guess I will on Monday.  Just a little here and a little there.    I'm still nibbling on tiny buys with my sparse spare cash-olla.  You folks are the wise ones and I'm a novice... should I buy VOO or a Foreign stock ETF?   Foreign is down...

I am also nibbling a little. For this past week, I have buying one share of DIA (The Dow 30 ETF) every day at about noon - thank goodness for zero cost trading :-)

DIA-- it's up on after hours trading.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 29, 2020, 10:36:24 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on February 29, 2020, 08:51:19 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 29, 2020, 02:51:01 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on February 28, 2020, 08:24:08 PM

I meant to buy today, but I guess I will on Monday.  Just a little here and a little there.    I'm still nibbling on tiny buys with my sparse spare cash-olla.  You folks are the wise ones and I'm a novice... should I buy VOO or a Foreign stock ETF?   Foreign is down...

I am also nibbling a little. For this past week, I have buying one share of DIA (The Dow 30 ETF) every day at about noon - thank goodness for zero cost trading :-)

DIA-- it's up on after hours trading.

I noticed that a lot of things spiked up after hours too.  Interesting event.  Institutional buyers getting in before the Monday opening, or trying to create a fake-out? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 29, 2020, 11:58:36 AM

Here's a heat map of the market showing quite a few gains.


https://www.finscreener.com/map/map

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 29, 2020, 12:21:25 PM

I can't help but think with the first death in the US there will be downward pressure next week.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on February 29, 2020, 12:25:31 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 29, 2020, 12:21:25 PM

I can't help but think with the first death in the US there will be downward pressure next week.

yep

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on February 29, 2020, 12:47:20 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 29, 2020, 12:21:25 PM

I can't help but think with the first death in the US there will be downward pressure next week.

First US death in Washington State reported today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 29, 2020, 01:37:10 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 29, 2020, 12:21:25 PM

I can't help but think with the first death in the US there will be downward pressure next week.

Indeed I fully expect some more downward pressure next week - but I can afford to spend a couple thousand on this little exercise in a practical exposition of Nyquist-Shannon sampling :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 01, 2020, 10:47:10 AM

Calculated my month end NW today. Not too bad.

Yes, I lost a couple of hundred K AUD last week, but in the first 7 weeks of the year (plus last year) I was getting returns that were unsustainable. easy come easy go.

Whilst my total stock market returns for the month of February were -$130K AUD my NW is still a little higher than what it was on 1 January, thanks to savings and property price growth.

Onwards and upwards.....

Hopefully we get a nice V, but I’m not too confident of that. I think many investors will want to see what happens in the coming month or 2 before throwing more money into stocks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 01, 2020, 11:07:54 AM

OK I'm calling it..

I suspect we will get 25 to 30% down and in a year from now we will barely remember what the problem was..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 01, 2020, 02:15:50 PM

ExFlyBoy, I hope you’re right, but I think you’re wrong. Coronavirus isn’t going to be stopped. It’s either going to burn through the population quickly and be very disruptive, or it’s going to smolder through with less disruption but for longer. It might do both in different areas of the world. Either way, I don’t see the market bouncing back in a year. We'll all still be in mourning.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 01, 2020, 06:16:08 PM

You don't pay those big taxes on losses.  You can figure you've made it.  No taxes just like Jeff Bezos or Warren Buffet.  Congratulations!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 01, 2020, 06:32:11 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 01, 2020, 06:16:08 PM

You don't pay those big taxes on losses.  You can figure you've made it.  No taxes just like Jeff Bezos or Warren Buffet.  Congratulations!

Losses.. what losses..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 01, 2020, 07:06:17 PM

Hmm ASX down another 2% today. Not the nicest start to March.

I am in the camp with those that think this wobble might take a year or 2 to put behind us.

By this time next year we will have a vaccine and it will be in mass production.

Before then, maybe 100 million in the world will have suffered Coronavirus with about 1 million dead.

A very small dent in the population, but a massive handbreak on growth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 01, 2020, 07:18:31 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on March 01, 2020, 07:06:17 PM

Hmm ASX down another 2% today. Not the nicest start to March.

I am in the camp with those that think this wobble might take a year or 2 to put behind us.

By this time next year we will have a vaccine and it will be in mass production.

Before then, maybe 100 million in the world will have suffered Coronavirus with about 1 million dead.

A very small dent in the population, but a massive handbreak on growth.

Ok, I am probably being overly pessimistic..... reading too much hype and propaganda. The number of new patients is slowing dramatically in China. I put it down to the fact I haven’t had my morning coffee yet. The world always looks better after I am filled with caffeine.

Fingers crossed...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on March 01, 2020, 07:19:36 PM

I hate the way the media is playing this. The adjectives they are using to describe things are so sensational. The headline on Yahoo finance is "US stocks dive as coronavirus panic mounts." When I checked S&P 500 futures are down .69% ... since when did that become a "dive"?

Stocks are still priced above historic norms relative to their P/E ratios but I agree with Warren Buffett that stock prices have to be considered in the context of monetary policy and if you believe that 3% is going to be the yield on the 30-year bond over the long term then stocks look good.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/06/warren-buffett-says-stocks-are-ridiculously-cheap-if-interest-rates-stay-at-these-levels.html

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 01, 2020, 08:44:07 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on March 01, 2020, 07:18:31 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on March 01, 2020, 07:06:17 PM

Hmm ASX down another 2% today. Not the nicest start to March.

I am in the camp with those that think this wobble might take a year or 2 to put behind us.

By this time next year we will have a vaccine and it will be in mass production.

Before then, maybe 100 million in the world will have suffered Coronavirus with about 1 million dead.

A very small dent in the population, but a massive handbreak on growth.

Ok, I am probably being overly pessimistic..... reading too much hype and propaganda. The number of new patients is slowing dramatically in China. I put it down to the fact I haven’t had my morning coffee yet. The world always looks better after I am filled with caffeine.

Fingers crossed...

.... and as I sip my morning coffee I see that Japan and China have opened the week in the green and Aussie stocks have recovered most of this mornings losses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 01, 2020, 10:18:11 PM

Checked our net worth at the end of the month as I usually do and we're down about $85K since the start of the year.

It's nice that isn't an event of particular concern.   The only planned withdrawals we've got from our portfolio are the minimum RMDs for January of 2021 and 2022.  Maybe a few thousand more if it would pay off the mortgage then and there.

If we have something expensive break, we'll pull out what we need to, but other than that, we're ok.

Some folks laughed at us a bit because I over-engineered our finances to have multiple mitigations for bad events.   And that was ok, because I probably overdid it. :)

But I'm sleeping well even with the prospect of the market dropping by 50% and staying there for some years.

Once our old house sells and the new house mortgage is paid off our monthly expenses will drop by $4,200, or $50,400 a year.  That's a big deal and even fairly expensive things breaking could be cash-flowed at that time.   

I really like having 4 totally different sources and types of income during times when the market is dropping and might easily go much lower.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 02, 2020, 02:06:08 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 01, 2020, 10:18:11 PM

I really like having 4 totally different sources and types of income during times when the market is dropping and might easily go much lower.

I agree completely.

I have a rental property and whilst the Net rent yield is probably only 3.25-3.5% I will hold onto it to provide a little diversification.

I also have a small govt pension coming to me from my 5 years as a public servant earlier in my career. It not substantial but it does provide some peace of mind as it would cover bare bones food and utilities

Then I have my Stocks which will cover travel, entertainment, new cars, home renovations, clothes, gifts etc etc. These costs can be minimized dramatically for a short period, even though that’s not the plan.

As a fourth stream of diversification I can rely on DW to do some casual teaching when required. She remains quite motivated to do a little teaching at this time. Her motivation will evolve with time no doubt. Maybe by then I’ll have something I don’t mind doing that pays a little. But this active income is not part of “the plan” and is just a contingency/ buffer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 02, 2020, 10:38:40 AM

Yeah.. 13% drop and I start asking myself what could we survive financially.

Answer.. If the market dropped 75% we'd be fine...:)

Oh looks like my rebalance on Friday was timed perfectly (like that has never happened), for now anyway..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 02, 2020, 05:02:52 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 01, 2020, 06:32:11 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 01, 2020, 06:16:08 PM

You don't pay those big taxes on losses.  You can figure you've made it.  No taxes just like Jeff Bezos or Warren Buffet.  Congratulations!

Losses.. what losses..:)

You are right - The bounce is here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 05, 2020, 08:45:23 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 02, 2020, 05:02:52 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 01, 2020, 06:32:11 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 01, 2020, 06:16:08 PM

You don't pay those big taxes on losses.  You can figure you've made it.  No taxes just like Jeff Bezos or Warren Buffet.  Congratulations!

Losses.. what losses..:)

You are right - The bounce is here.

Looks like the one day Biden Bounce is over and the Dow ie down over 700 points.  I'd recovered to within 80K of highs.  This volatile market will probably continue for a while.  Still working and still buying.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 06, 2020, 07:25:12 AM

At this rate my stock allocation will be insignificant in a couple of weeks....we will almost certainly test the December 2018 lows. Hopefully some technical support there.

This is only my second large drop as an investor, but the first one after FIREing (on a shoestring budget!).

It does look like this means I go back to work in a year to reduce SRR and obliterate my portfolio.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 06, 2020, 10:05:51 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 06, 2020, 07:25:12 AM

At this rate my stock allocation will be insignificant in a couple of weeks....we will almost certainly test the December 2018 lows. Hopefully some technical support there.

This is only my second large drop as an investor, but the first one after FIREing (on a shoestring budget!).

It does look like this means I go back to work in a year to reduce SRR and obliterate my portfolio.

SP500 is still up 6% for last 12 months and 16% since 12/31/19 - before dividends.   Those numbers aren't that bad.   Have a couple 2019 lows to test before the 2018 lows - Sep19 2855 (hit it last week but didn't break it) and then 2750 from may of last year.   Incidentally those levels would be close to 15% and 20% declines respectively, not crazy by any means, don't get me wrong I don't like it but its not crazy.   

Lows if 2018 would be close to a 30% drop from highs....back up the truck.   

Times to reallocate is all. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 06, 2020, 11:34:59 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on March 06, 2020, 10:05:51 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 06, 2020, 07:25:12 AM

At this rate my stock allocation will be insignificant in a couple of weeks....we will almost certainly test the December 2018 lows. Hopefully some technical support there.

This is only my second large drop as an investor, but the first one after FIREing (on a shoestring budget!).

It does look like this means I go back to work in a year to reduce SRR and obliterate my portfolio.

SP500 is still up 6% for last 12 months and 16% since 12/31/19 - before dividends.   Those numbers aren't that bad.   Have a couple 2019 lows to test before the 2018 lows - Sep19 2855 (hit it last week but didn't break it) and then 2750 from may of last year.   Incidentally those levels would be close to 15% and 20% declines respectively, not crazy by any means, don't get me wrong I don't like it but its not crazy.   

Lows if 2018 would be close to a 30% drop from highs....back up the truck.   

Times to reallocate is all.

I also think we'll test the lows of 2018 before it's over.  Global GDP could go negative for a while.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 06, 2020, 12:14:05 PM

This week is exactly why you don't want to have to watch your portfolio every day!   

With that said, I'm seeing comments about opportunistic buying and targeting sectors / individual stock 'bargains'.  Trying to outwit the market, especially right now, is going to compound the emotional drag of the ups and downs.  We will likely need a lot of stamina for this one, unless we get really lucky and warmer weather in April actually does stem the spread of the virus.  Much more likely is that we have more quarantines and business disruptions, coupled with economic bailouts...  ups and downs... 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 06, 2020, 04:13:07 PM

It's kind of nice.  Folks herein have predicted that the lows will go no lower than the dip in 2018.  I can handle that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 06, 2020, 06:13:06 PM

I was going to go on line today to check our bank balances, but decided against it. Meh. Mind you, I said bank balances. I wouldn't dream of checking the investment accounts. For now, it just is whatever it is. Not spending it any time in the near future (read: at least three years), so it just doesn't matter.

Anybody read any good books lately?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on March 06, 2020, 07:00:52 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 06, 2020, 06:13:06 PM

..................Anybody read any good books lately?

Yep, on the beach in Zipolite, Mexico, no TV most places, or in hotel rooms (ours was $18 USD/day).  We were "loosing" ~$10K USD/day and could't care less.
We only remembered that Corona was something other than a beer when we got to the Mexico City airport.

 This Time Is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly by Carmen M. Reinhart, Kenneth S. Rogoff 
TL;DR - Everybody is amazed at financial crashes, currency devaluations etc. EVERY TIME.  "We couldn't have predicted this"- economists, especially government economists when a asset/currency bubble happens.
The only thing, is it was written ~ 2009 and does not show the recovery of various assets post GFC (they call it the Second Great Contraction).

Skin in the Game- Nassim Nicholas Taleb.   TL:DR, most economists don't have any financial gain/loss in play when "prognosticating".

Disclosure: I have a 10 Trillion dollar Zimbabwe note and gave away 250 Billion Zimbabwe dollars for Halloween two years ago (5 billion notes).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 06, 2020, 07:18:06 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on March 06, 2020, 07:00:52 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 06, 2020, 06:13:06 PM

..................Anybody read any good books lately?

Yep, on the beach in Zipolite, Mexico, no TV most places, or in hotel rooms (ours was $18 USD/day).  We were "loosing" ~$10K USD/day and could't care less.
We only remembered that Corona was something other than a beer when we got to the Mexico City airport.

 This Time Is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly by Carmen M. Reinhart, Kenneth S. Rogoff 
TL;DR - Everybody is amazed at financial crashes, currency devaluations etc. EVERY TIME.  "We couldn't have predicted this"- economists, especially government economists when a asset/currency bubble happens.
The only thing, is it was written ~ 2009 and does not show the recovery of various assets post GFC (they call it the Second Great Contraction).

Skin in the Game- Nassim Nicholas Taleb.   TL:DR, most economists don't have any financial gain/loss in play when "prognosticating".

Disclosure: I have a 10 Trillion dollar Zimbabwe note and gave away 250 Billion Zimbabwe dollars for Halloween two years ago (5 billion notes).

Aren't those $5 billion dollar notes grand!!??     I have a stash of them that I give away for fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 07, 2020, 02:50:29 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 06, 2020, 06:13:06 PM

I was going to go on line today to check our bank balances, but decided against it. Meh. Mind you, I said bank balances. I wouldn't dream of checking the investment accounts. For now, it just is whatever it is. Not spending it any time in the near future (read: at least three years), so it just doesn't matter.

Anybody read any good books lately?

I am reading "The Gene - an intimate history" by Siddhartha Mukherjee. My older daughter is starting grad school later this year working in genetics so I figured I might as well learn something about the field :-) Genetics is an interesting field - its really a combination of biology and computer science.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on March 07, 2020, 03:11:30 AM

Oh I read his cancer book and it was amazing, I will have to try that one!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 07, 2020, 09:55:47 AM

I am about to give away "The Millionaire Next Door" for a retirement party gag gift.. Sorta.

I started flipping through it remembering how good it was. Best part I only paid one dollar for it..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 07, 2020, 10:08:42 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 07, 2020, 09:55:47 AM

I am about to give away "The Millionaire Next Door" for a retirement party gag gift.. Sorta.

I started flipping through it remembering how good it was. Best part I only paid one dollar for it..:)

Sort of a gag or sort of a gift? I think it's a great gift! Even better that it was only a buck, plus, I'll bet you didn't have to pay sales tax on it either, which makes it even more valuable. Unless you use used materials, it could cost more to wrap!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 07, 2020, 02:26:42 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 07, 2020, 10:08:42 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 07, 2020, 09:55:47 AM

I am about to give away "The Millionaire Next Door" for a retirement party gag gift.. Sorta.

I started flipping through it remembering how good it was. Best part I only paid one dollar for it..:)

Sort of a gag or sort of a gift? I think it's a great gift! Even better that it was only a buck, plus, I'll bet you didn't have to pay sales tax on it either, which makes it even more valuable. Unless you use used materials, it could cost more to wrap!

Actually both (sorta) The friend who is retiring (early at 55) we didn't know he was retiring so by definition must have a stash of moolah tucked away. The best bit though is he is a mutual friend of the friend who told me it "really pissed him off" that DW and I were retired.

This guy and his Wife spend EVERYTHING they have and can't figure out how we did it.

Now he will have another friend doing the same thing.. We hope the retiree he opens it close to friend #2...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 08, 2020, 09:39:01 PM

I haven’t looked closely, but I suppose I must be down $400K from the peak. 🥺

As a young man I never would have imagined I’d be in a position to lose almost half a million over a 3 week period... much less that I would still be fairly well of even after losing so much.

The ASX is now down roughly 20% from the peak. I asked DW whether it was time to start buying yet. I think I’ll wait a little longer.... but it’s starting to become tempting...

Buying is not really going to change much. I’d only be adding 5% additional investment on the stash already there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 08, 2020, 09:46:03 PM

Y'all see oil?  Holy guacamole!  It's going be a rough morning.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 08, 2020, 09:51:22 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 08, 2020, 09:46:03 PM

Y'all see oil?  Holy guacamole!  It's going be a rough morning.

Australia/ Japan down 6% today

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: mjr on March 08, 2020, 10:35:23 PM

7% now.

This is just the start, still due to fear.  The inevitable recession hasn't hit yet...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 09, 2020, 12:14:10 AM

I’ll hold onto the positive signs of lowering infection rates in China and Korea...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 09, 2020, 04:48:06 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on March 09, 2020, 12:14:10 AM

I’ll hold onto the positive signs of lowering infection rates in China and Korea...

Positive news on the virus will help, but this slowdown is already happening.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 09, 2020, 06:33:27 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 09, 2020, 04:48:06 AM

Positive news on the virus will help, but this slowdown is already happening.

Recovery is going to be a lot slower than people  expect. Even if the virus "burns itself out" by say June, travel will not resume immediately. People are still scared to travel and it will take some time for this fear to dissipate. It will be a year or more before air travel volumes recover.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 09, 2020, 12:08:18 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on March 06, 2020, 10:05:51 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 06, 2020, 07:25:12 AM

At this rate my stock allocation will be insignificant in a couple of weeks....we will almost certainly test the December 2018 lows. Hopefully some technical support there.

This is only my second large drop as an investor, but the first one after FIREing (on a shoestring budget!).

It does look like this means I go back to work in a year to reduce SRR and obliterate my portfolio.

SP500 is still up 6% for last 12 months and 16% since 12/31/19 - before dividends.   Those numbers aren't that bad.   Have a couple 2019 lows to test before the 2018 lows - Sep19 2855 (hit it last week but didn't break it) and then 2750 from may of last year.   Incidentally those levels would be close to 15% and 20% declines respectively, not crazy by any means, don't get me wrong I don't like it but its not crazy.   

Lows if 2018 would be close to a 30% drop from highs....back up the truck.   

Times to reallocate is all.

Broke through the 2019 lows....next mark is 2018 low of 2408 in December of 2018.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 09, 2020, 12:10:36 PM

Yup 2408 is the 20% down from recent highs mark.. I'm thinking of dipping another toe in at that point.

Might happen today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 09, 2020, 12:29:22 PM

The ASX 200 futures are pointing to another big drop tomorrow. Sheesh 😒

I know this shouldn’t impact my FIRE plans for this year, but it might.

Work feels a safe place to be for now.

I accept that if 1 month ago I had $1million and that a safe withdrawal at that time was $40K, then today of if that $1m is now worth only $800k the $40k safe withdrawal still stands. If I fired tomorrow I should consider 5% as a safe withdrawal rate now (40/800).

But somehow, I can write that here but I’m not quite feeling it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 09, 2020, 12:57:47 PM

Dancing on my tippy toes through my OMY!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 09, 2020, 01:23:32 PM

Quite a time for this to be my last week at work.
Then again, I did call the market crash timed with my retirement on The Top Is In thread several weeks ago. To bad you all weren’t paying attention! :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 09, 2020, 02:38:01 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on March 09, 2020, 12:29:22 PM

The ASX 200 futures are pointing to another big drop tomorrow. Sheesh 😒

I know this shouldn’t impact my FIRE plans for this year, but it might.

Work feels a safe place to be for now.

I accept that if 1 month ago I had $1million and that a safe withdrawal at that time was $40K, then today of if that $1m is now worth only $800k the $40k safe withdrawal still stands. If I fired tomorrow I should consider 5% as a safe withdrawal rate now (40/800).

But somehow, I can write that here but I’m not quite feeling it.

If I was working still I would be hiding out in the "safety" of my job, just like I did in 4Q 2018 when markets went down 20%.   I FIRE'd in June 2019 but it was the 20% drop from the highs in 9/2018 to the lows in 12/2018 that confirmed I was comfortable with the risk.  From 1/2019 to 6/2019 I added another 5-7% or to the stash from year end bonus, annual 401k match, vesting RSUs etc.  Also, the market basically recovered back to prior highs by the time I FIRE'd and at that time I moved about 10% from equities to bonds to have a more conservative AA/glide path plan so I could sleep at night.  Definitely had FOMO as markets ran up the rest of the year and into this year but didn't change anything and as a result now I still sleep at night.

Don't get me wrong, I still lost a boat load but still not back to 12/2018 lows, which may/probably be hit but that will be close to the 30% from highs.  Maybe it goes more.   I will rebalance some as this continues.   

The standstill that is being caused by coronavirus, even if the issue/fear lasts only another month, will ripple through the economy and SP500 earnings will drop - how much, who knows.   If its 20-30% then market is where it should be, if its more it will drop more but will recover faster like during the financial crisis. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 09, 2020, 08:19:22 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 14, 2020, 05:20:41 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 12, 2020, 10:06:37 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on February 12, 2020, 08:15:17 PM

Well because of the frothy stock market my liquid assets crossed the $2 million mark, to $2,007,000

On top of that I have another $425,000 in equity.

The Top is In.  The market will promptly crash now.

Sorry for the minor correction, but a crash is scheduled for mid next month when I will be quitting work for good.

Mark your calendars, folks.

I've started the alignment to retire and really want to see some significant crash before quitting.  Working in the Petro/chemical business you know pretty much when things are slowing. The refineries are feeling the China problems as well as the disruption of demographics.  People are driving less miles per person.  I'm in chemical manufacturing and thus far our issues have been lack of raw material supply. We've had major on-site equipment repair and new construction which has temporarily slowed our production.  Demand thus far is strong as well as pricing.  We make polyurethane, inventory is low and demand is still high.  There will be no deep recession until demand for our products levels and drops.  That however doesn't have much to do with panic drops in the market.   Ten to twenty percent swings at this level could be considered chatter and noise.  We aren't seeing that yet because the government and the consumer are spending debt like crazy.  Many of us here have taken advantage of that for quite a while now.  For now our dollars of profit are just as real as their debt.  Who knows how much longer the big Ponzi scheme can go.

Ysette9 you were saying🤣😠😈😎

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 09, 2020, 10:18:34 PM

Thank you very much.

This will be the first and last time I call the market

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 10, 2020, 02:45:59 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 09, 2020, 10:18:34 PM

Thank you very much.

This will be the first and last time I call the market

Good luck with your well deserved retirement.  We all want the absolute best for you and know you'll be just fine.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 10, 2020, 05:15:06 AM

Think this one is going to take awhile to figure out as we wait for this Virus to work through, now oil and then the election and have  to see the carnage after it all. In the end it will all work out so staying the course but no rush i see to add more here but instead will live off cash reserve till things settle a bit. Getting a bounceback in futures because of some things the administration might do but we have a long ways to go imo to get through this all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 10, 2020, 08:27:33 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 10, 2020, 05:15:06 AM

Think this one is going to take awhile to figure out as we wait for this Virus to work through, now oil and then the election and have  to see the carnage after it all. In the end it will all work out so staying the course but no rush i see to add more here but instead will live off cash reserve till things settle a bit. Getting a bounceback in futures because of some things the administration might do but we have a long ways to go imo to get through this all.

Probably, I think the coronavirus will sort out/become normalized/accepted sooner rather than later and oil will stabilize in next 90 days but won't increase until demand comes back from the first stuff.   The election however is probably now the riskiest.   Trump may be a moron but stock markets have been good, but his handling of the coronavirus and immediate and looming additional shocks to the economy have greatly opened the door to him not being re-elected.  If Biden gets elected most things that change will be slight and not impactful, but the big thing would be tax rates - if they go back to pre tax cut levels that would be another 20% cut to earnings and the markets - that is the big risk.     

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on March 10, 2020, 08:34:29 AM

Well, I'm down over $250K, so I guess I won't be seeing you all for a few months or maybe a year.  It was nice for the ONE DAY that I was an official member. 

Good luck to all and I hope to see you again soon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 10, 2020, 09:00:37 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on March 10, 2020, 08:34:29 AM

Well, I'm down over $250K, so I guess I won't be seeing you all for a few months or maybe a year.  It was nice for the ONE DAY that I was an official member. 

Good luck to all and I hope to see you again soon.

See you soon 😁

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on March 10, 2020, 10:32:17 AM

2,011,045

Hanging on by a thread!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 10, 2020, 05:59:51 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 10, 2020, 05:15:06 AM

Think this one is going to take awhile to figure out as we wait for this Virus to work through, now oil and then the election and have  to see the carnage after it all. In the end it will all work out so staying the course but no rush i see to add more here but instead will live off cash reserve till things settle a bit. Getting a bounceback in futures because of some things the administration might do but we have a long ways to go imo to get through this all.

So - I can understand the virus slowing business.  What I can never understand is why the lower price of oil is bad for the entire economy.  I can see it being bad for the oil business.  I can also see it being good for everybody else.  I just bought some gas a few minutes ago.  It was about $2.00 / gallon.  The difference from previous prices is money in my pocket.  The lower gas prices mean a lot of money in just about everybody's pocket.  I mean, it's like a tax cut with no increase to the Federal deficit.  This kind of thing is supposed to be an economic stimulus.

I wish I could figure this stuff out instead of riding it like being on the back of an angry tiger.  I'm glad you guys have been warning me. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 10, 2020, 07:36:43 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 10, 2020, 05:59:51 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 10, 2020, 05:15:06 AM

Think this one is going to take awhile to figure out as we wait for this Virus to work through, now oil and then the election and have  to see the carnage after it all. In the end it will all work out so staying the course but no rush i see to add more here but instead will live off cash reserve till things settle a bit. Getting a bounceback in futures because of some things the administration might do but we have a long ways to go imo to get through this all.

So - I can understand the virus slowing business.  What I can never understand is why the lower price of oil is bad for the entire economy.  I can see it being bad for the oil business.  I can also see it being good for everybody else.  I just bought some gas a few minutes ago.  It was about $2.00 / gallon.  The difference from previous prices is money in my pocket.  The lower gas prices mean a lot of money in just about everybody's pocket.  I mean, it's like a tax cut with no increase to the Federal deficit.  This kind of thing is supposed to be an economic stimulus.

I wish I could figure this stuff out instead of riding it like being on the back of an angry tiger.  I'm glad you guys have been warning me.

If American shale oil companies go out of business, several things happen:

1) Their employees become unemployed.
2) Many of them are in flyover states where they are providing a huge economic boom.  That boom evaporates.
3) The folks in those oil boom flyover states who invested to provide goods and services watch their market evaporate.  They go bust.
4) US oil exports have been key to making the balance of trade more in our favor.   That goes away and causes disruptions.
5) Oil prices are lower because demand is down, not because we've figured out a way to use less oil.   All that demand was because people were doing things that use up energy and now they aren't.   Those things contributed to the economy and now they aren't.    People lose money.

Lower price gas won't help much if people lose their jobs or much of their income due to these disruptions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 10, 2020, 07:51:03 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 10, 2020, 05:59:51 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 10, 2020, 05:15:06 AM

Think this one is going to take awhile to figure out as we wait for this Virus to work through, now oil and then the election and have  to see the carnage after it all. In the end it will all work out so staying the course but no rush i see to add more here but instead will live off cash reserve till things settle a bit. Getting a bounceback in futures because of some things the administration might do but we have a long ways to go imo to get through this all.

So - I can understand the virus slowing business.  What I can never understand is why the lower price of oil is bad for the entire economy.  I can see it being bad for the oil business.  I can also see it being good for everybody else.  I just bought some gas a few minutes ago.  It was about $2.00 / gallon.  The difference from previous prices is money in my pocket.  The lower gas prices mean a lot of money in just about everybody's pocket.  I mean, it's like a tax cut with no increase to the Federal deficit.  This kind of thing is supposed to be an economic stimulus.

I wish I could figure this stuff out instead of riding it like being on the back of an angry tiger.  I'm glad you guys have been warning me.

Every drop of shale oil is back by a tremendous level of debt.  The means to pay that debt is by extracting the oil and bringing it to market.  Problem is, at these levels shale oil producers will be operating at a cost higher than they can sell the oil.  Saudi Arabia can produce and profit on sub 20 dollar a barrel oil.  Simple economic reality.   The layoffs and the rippling effect are coming.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 10, 2020, 10:36:36 PM

I've recently incurred some substantial losses and I'm wondering about harvesting them to offset future real estate capital gains.  This is the first time I have done tax loss harvesting.  I realize that I need to avoid a wash sale.  Where can I find info about what I can safely swap out?  (I have VTSAX, VITAX, & VIGAX, which I plan to convert to ETFs tomorrow.)  I assume cashing them out & parking the cash in my MM settlement fund for 30 days would also work? 


Some of the losses are short term & some are long term.  Is there a reason to not just harvest all of them?  If so, how do you decide which to sell first?
 
I'll ask my accountant, and my Vanguard rep, but I figured I'd ask you guys (& gals) too since I'd like to get as much info as I can. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 11, 2020, 12:18:53 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on March 10, 2020, 09:00:37 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on March 10, 2020, 08:34:29 AM

Well, I'm down over $250K, so I guess I won't be seeing you all for a few months or maybe a year.  It was nice for the ONE DAY that I was an official member. 

Good luck to all and I hope to see you again soon.

See you soon 😁

As King George sings in Hamilton, "You'll be back..."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 11, 2020, 01:24:35 PM

Almost 20% down and thinking of dipping another toe..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 11, 2020, 02:26:41 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 06, 2020, 07:25:12 AM

At this rate my stock allocation will be insignificant in a couple of weeks....we will almost certainly test the December 2018 lows. Hopefully some technical support there.

This is only my second large drop as an investor, but the first one after FIREing (on a shoestring budget!).

It does look like this means I go back to work in a year to reduce SRR and obliterate my portfolio.

So much for technical support....

This sucks :(

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 11, 2020, 04:03:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 11, 2020, 01:24:35 PM

Almost 20% down and thinking of dipping another toe..:)

I like your positive attitude.  :)


You must not be listening to the fake news.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 11, 2020, 04:57:22 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 11, 2020, 04:03:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 11, 2020, 01:24:35 PM

Almost 20% down and thinking of dipping another toe..:)

I like your positive attitude.  :)


You must not be listening to the fake news.  ;)

I held off as it didn't close below the 20% down mark.. I'm betting there will be a bounce tomorrow and then a new low on Friday.. I'll probably toe dip then.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 11, 2020, 06:59:24 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 11, 2020, 04:57:22 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 11, 2020, 04:03:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 11, 2020, 01:24:35 PM

Almost 20% down and thinking of dipping another toe..:)

I like your positive attitude.  :)


You must not be listening to the fake news.  ;)

I held off as it didn't close below the 20% down mark.. I'm betting there will be a bounce tomorrow and then a new low on Friday.. I'll probably toe dip then.

So, you're thinking the 20% mark will cure the pandemic? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 11, 2020, 08:54:58 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 11, 2020, 06:59:24 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 11, 2020, 04:57:22 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 11, 2020, 04:03:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 11, 2020, 01:24:35 PM

Almost 20% down and thinking of dipping another toe..:)

I like your positive attitude.  :)


You must not be listening to the fake news.  ;)

I held off as it didn't close below the 20% down mark.. I'm betting there will be a bounce tomorrow and then a new low on Friday.. I'll probably toe dip then.

So, you're thinking the 20% mark will cure the pandemic?

No I think its going lower after Trump's speech!.. Futures down 4% already.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 11, 2020, 09:07:35 PM

Geez, if it keeps going like this, I might have to leave the club.  Lots of cash on hand, though, so pretty soon the buy-in will feel really good.  And then, like Arnold, I'll be back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 11, 2020, 09:33:07 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 11, 2020, 08:54:58 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 11, 2020, 06:59:24 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 11, 2020, 04:57:22 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 11, 2020, 04:03:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 11, 2020, 01:24:35 PM

Almost 20% down and thinking of dipping another toe..:)

I like your positive attitude.  :)


You must not be listening to the fake news.  ;)

I held off as it didn't close below the 20% down mark.. I'm betting there will be a bounce tomorrow and then a new low on Friday.. I'll probably toe dip then.

So, you're thinking the 20% mark will cure the pandemic?

No I think its going lower after Trump's speech!.. Futures down 4% already.

He must have slipped up and got caught telling the truth, by mistake of course. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 12, 2020, 02:25:34 AM

Was thinking 2018 lows would be the bottom.  Now Dow 20,000 is in doubt.  Country is shutting down. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 12, 2020, 02:54:41 AM

Having lived through three big downturns (early 90s, 2000, 2008), this is what I posted a few months back

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 27, 2019, 07:50:36 AM

I know this number is an outlier but that's what works for us, in terms of peace of mind. We have about 6 years worth of living expenses in money market and savings accounts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on March 12, 2020, 09:26:51 AM

Russia bluffing SA and SA saying that "oh, by the way, we were just joking about our cost.....it's actually $3 a barrel" has blown the price of oil.  The US is just collateral damage but of course oil companies are going to be hammered.  Good news/bad news.  Several XOM, Chevron come to mind in the S&P 500.  Good news is when I put gas in my car.  I'm sure the Canadians pushing sludge through the Keystone are kicking themselves now. 

On the drops.......if your AA truly reflects your risk tolerance, then at most, you're watching your AA vs your target for rebalance.  Bonds have mostly been doing phenomenally well.  Some time ago (more than 30 days, but I forget exactly when), I had rebalanced out of equity, into bonds.  In the last week, I did some rebalance from bond into equity and will watch the AA to see if I do it again.  Some strategic tax loss harvesting.  I'm also getting a nice tax refund that's enough to fund mine and my wife's Roths completely. 

All of this is opportunity.  If your AA was too heavy in equity and now you don't feel so good, just hold on.  Think about what your tolerance truly is, adjust your target AA and when things have recovered, start rebalancing to that new target.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 12, 2020, 09:33:05 AM

Today is toe dipping day.. well maybe half a foot..:)

I have 17 years in bond+cash.. so I gotta rebalace a bit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on March 12, 2020, 12:32:58 PM

Tally from yesterday's losses put me exactly 4,010 out of this club, for now. But who else will understand my troubles except you all?

I went to tax loss harvest today, for the first time since 2015/2016. Ah, but my days (and accounts) were more straight forward back then; now most of my accounts, both pre-tax and post-tax, have VTSAX and VTIAX, which is what I'd mostly sell to TLH thousands in recent losses, but my solo 401k and cash balance plans both had contributions as recently as 2/28, so wash rule territory.

So I was about to turn off dividend reinvestments and set a calendar reminder for 3/30, when it occurred to me that instead of eking out $1k tax savings/yr for the next few years, I'd make far more just accelerating a few planned monthly contributions and doing a little rebalancing (assuming the markets recover of course); neither could be done if I wanted to TLH at the end of the month. So have I truly graduated out of TLH and into a dirty market timer? Of course, I'm not all in, just rebalanced some bonds in my old 401k to bring my small cap allocation up from 6.5%, and may exchange some aftertax bonds into equities before the bell. The G and F funds in the TSP remain untouched...for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 12, 2020, 01:07:59 PM

Sheesh...... -600K AUD..... maybe more but I can’t get motivated to type what I see on my brokerage screen into my spreadsheet.

Looks like I am working for a few extra months to wait this out... maybe a few years 😟

A good chunk of the world is closed for business.

However.......lChina only had 18 new cases today. It’s barely 3 months since this all began. Korea is also doing well in containment.

I remain optimistic that the recovery will happen this year..., maybe late this year....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 12, 2020, 02:24:24 PM

I have "lost" $480k US so far.... Thats more than my house is worth...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 12, 2020, 02:34:50 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 12, 2020, 09:33:05 AM

Today is toe dipping day.. well maybe half a foot..:)

I have 17 years in bond+cash.. so I gotta rebalace a bit.

You have 17 years of expenses in bonds&cash? Wow - I thought I was extreme in having six years :-)
I think tomorrow is going to be my toe dipping day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 12, 2020, 03:15:21 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 12, 2020, 02:34:50 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 12, 2020, 09:33:05 AM

Today is toe dipping day.. well maybe half a foot..:)

I have 17 years in bond+cash.. so I gotta rebalace a bit.

You have 17 years of expenses in bonds&cash? Wow - I thought I was extreme in having six years :-)
I think tomorrow is going to be my toe dipping day.

Thats not counting the future pensions.. But yeah I'm taking chunks out, I rolled about 1/3rd of the way to my desired point of 7 years in bonds+cash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Ozlady on March 12, 2020, 03:43:14 PM

My paper losses so far: $102K...

thank God it is less than a year's passive income for me...

I am still feeling like a pig rolling in mud; salivating at the prospect of more buying...see ..the eternal optimist:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on March 12, 2020, 04:22:39 PM

I have about 50,000 in cash and I have to put money in my solo 401k for the 2019 tax year.  So this seems like a good time to start doing it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on March 12, 2020, 04:25:54 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on March 10, 2020, 08:27:33 AM

If Biden gets elected most things that change will be slight and not impactful, but the big thing would be tax rates - if they go back to pre tax cut levels that would be another 20% cut to earnings and the markets - that is the big risk.   

If the economy improves under Biden, even an increase in taxes might not be a risk toward stock market valuations.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 12, 2020, 09:03:06 PM

Looks like the lowest since 2017.  I have been hoarding some cash since I've been told for 2 years this drop was due.  Do you guys expect the disease fear to last for a few months?  I wonder if we're nearing the bottom.   Any cash I can put in will not make up for my losses, but it would be good to have it work for me.

This keeps going and I will be another dipping below the $2M mark.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on March 12, 2020, 09:11:03 PM

We haven't gotten the worst of this yet.  Expect about 50% of the population to get hit with the Coronavirus, but the vast overwhelming majority will be fine, it will be like getting a cold.

So yes I'd expect the market to freak out more.  Schools are closing, we're definitely going to be in a recession, incomes are going to decline.

I have no idea when the bottom will peak. You just do your best and invest your cash and over the long term stocks are headed back up.

We've been through this rodeo before, just different issues freaked everyone out (understandably).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 12, 2020, 10:15:53 PM

Yeah I could see another 10% down from here.. Heck the futures are down 2.5% for tomorrow already.

Another 10% down would take us to a 37% retraction.. Thats a pretty decent recession pricing so do we really see it going much lower?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 12, 2020, 10:24:15 PM

The ASX passed -30% which is what I had set for myself as a Buy signal. So I threw another $50K on the fire. Here hoping for a quick recovery.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 12, 2020, 11:22:49 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on March 12, 2020, 10:24:15 PM

The ASX passed -30% which is what I had set for myself as a Buy signal. So I threw another $50K on the fire. Here hoping for a quick recovery.

I've always been in an investing situation where I'm investing my savings (delaying gratification) in hopes (and confidence) in historical outcomes to have a better situation in the relatively near future.

This is the first downturn where I'm fat-FI, have cash savings on the side, and don't really need to invest and put money at risk in hopes of quick reward, I just want to hang on to my FI and have enough invested that the 4% rule works.

Not sure about all of the other folks that are passing 'trigger points' that force them to put money in to equities, but I'm still not sure I'm going to re-balance to get back to my 50/50 super-conservative AA tomorrow.  I know that I should, this should not be an emotion-driven decision, but I'm struggling...  There will likely be one or more 'dead cat / bear trap' bounces before we bottom out so I'm not going to blindly chase an up day but I do need to figure out when I rebalance if it is not done for me (by a sudden equity recovery)...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 13, 2020, 03:06:36 AM

Wait is this the 2-4 million race to zero? yesterday was a painful one but the last two days I have been buying one day using cash the other day sold some bonds all for more VTSAX. I have plenty of powder to add but just would like to see us settle somewhere and or a green day for a change would be a nice break. Yesterday though I gotta say stung a little more than the other days. Oh well in it for the long run but sentiment looks like could be aways down yet before we go higher.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on March 13, 2020, 08:47:37 AM

Boy this has been a painful month and a half! It's probably going to delay my early retirement by several years as I am committed to reaching my magic number (which is admittedly high). Oh well, can't do much about that now -- I think we should all switch back to talking about biking and other fun things!

But, before we do that, morningstar had a pretty good analysis of COVID-19 and likely short-/long-term impacts to the economy:

https://www.morningstar.com/articles/971254/morningstars-view-the-impact-of-coronavirus-on-the-economy

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on March 13, 2020, 08:48:00 AM

Argh, first time I've tried to time my solo 401k contributions, and now looking back, there's always been a 2 day lag between initiating and execution, so guess I'm getting Monday's price since I started it yesterday before the bell. Oh well, looking like a dead cat bounce so far today, and this is all just nibbling around the edges anyway.

Felt good to shift a few bonds into stocks yesterday, less than a 2% shift in my AA. However, I was surprised to see I'm starting to track out of my US/ex-US desired allocation too, so it all went into VTSAX yesterday.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on March 13, 2020, 08:53:47 AM

Oh, also I think I've got the virus. Pretty solid link from DW to colleague to child whisked back from Milan when this all started going down a few weeks back. I was certain it was usual seasonal allergies, always get this time of year when we see some warm days (85F the past 2 days), but what tipped me off, other than the DW's story, is that the symptoms are too mild for my typical allergies...so far.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 13, 2020, 08:57:10 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 12, 2020, 09:03:06 PM

Looks like the lowest since 2017.  I have been hoarding some cash since I've been told for 2 years this drop was due.  Do you guys expect the disease fear to last for a few months?  I wonder if we're nearing the bottom.   Any cash I can put in will not make up for my losses, but it would be good to have it work for me.

This keeps going and I will be another dipping below the $2M mark.

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on March 12, 2020, 09:11:03 PM

We haven't gotten the worst of this yet.  Expect about 50% of the population to get hit with the Coronavirus, but the vast overwhelming majority will be fine, it will be like getting a cold.

So yes I'd expect the market to freak out more.  Schools are closing, we're definitely going to be in a recession, incomes are going to decline.

I have no idea when the bottom will peak. You just do your best and invest your cash and over the long term stocks are headed back up.

We've been through this rodeo before, just different issues freaked everyone out (understandably).

This.   There are absolutely 100's of thousands if not millions more people here and globally that have or have had the virus but can't or haven't or won't be tested (no kits, not severe enough symptoms) and while this is perfectly logical the irrational will continue to win out as the numbers increase dramatically over the next 30 days. 

My probabilities for the next 30-90 days:
Get back to correction territory (10% off highs) - 2%
Range bound between Dec 2018 Lows and 20% off highs - 75%
down another 10% from high - 20%
Hit 50% down from highs - 3%

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on March 13, 2020, 10:44:04 AM

Down $252k on paper.

Considering initiating some Roth rollovers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on March 13, 2020, 12:44:15 PM

Quote from: PathtoFIRE on March 13, 2020, 08:53:47 AM

Oh, also I think I've got the virus. Pretty solid link from DW to colleague to child whisked back from Milan when this all started going down a few weeks back. I was certain it was usual seasonal allergies, always get this time of year when we see some warm days (85F the past 2 days), but what tipped me off, other than the DW's story, is that the symptoms are too mild for my typical allergies...so far.

I think I did too. My symptoms were nasal congestion, feeling some slight chills, tickle in the back of the throat.  This started 2 days ago. If I had fever, it was no more than half a degree.
I'm feeling a lot better today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 13, 2020, 09:45:30 PM

Started frontloading my 401K.   Will be plugging 40 percent of income in there till maxed.  I'm over 50 now so that's substantial.  As far as losses go, looks like were down a little more than 200K.  Sitting at about 2.2M liquid at present, there is a chance we don't dip below 2M at this point.   Made a tiny(for those in this thread) 1/1000 of net worth buy today.  May get in a few more next week.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 14, 2020, 02:39:28 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on March 13, 2020, 12:44:15 PM

Quote from: PathtoFIRE on March 13, 2020, 08:53:47 AM

Oh, also I think I've got the virus. Pretty solid link from DW to colleague to child whisked back from Milan when this all started going down a few weeks back. I was certain it was usual seasonal allergies, always get this time of year when we see some warm days (85F the past 2 days), but what tipped me off, other than the DW's story, is that the symptoms are too mild for my typical allergies...so far.

I think I did too. My symptoms were nasal congestion, feeling some slight chills, tickle in the back of the throat.  This started 2 days ago. If I had fever, it was no more than half a degree.
I'm feeling a lot better today.

I had exactly the same but with a sore throat so I have self quarantined for the most part going on day 10. Started with sore throat, tickle cough and head cold but never a fever. So maybe not but no need to take chances but cant get rid 100% of sore throat. So far have not had or developed anything in the lungs.

Bounce back was nice to wake up to this morning but sure we will see more downside till all the dust settles so I will continue to stick to my plan and add on further 5% drops and rebalance as needed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 14, 2020, 06:59:28 AM

Working long hours out of town as usual.  I've kinda ignored the frenzy about this illness.  I drove back home last night.  I was surprised to see empty shelves in the grocery store.  Clerks say some people have gone batsh*t crazy about this illness.  Strangely illogical.  Seems like the chances of a car accident and many other things are still much higher, but people are people.

So,.......we are not out of the woods for a while, OK, I get it.

Before the illness I was hearing a lot of noise about stocks being overpriced per historic evaluation.  Some made reference to price / earnings ratios and other measures.  Once again I am asking you smart people.  How is the value in reference to historic measures after the "correction?"

Seeing the posts, I guess we should be taking some measures.  This illness is probably not a pretty way to cash out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jdfergason on March 14, 2020, 09:40:50 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 14, 2020, 06:59:28 AM

Working long hours out of town as usual.  I've kinda ignored the frenzy about this illness.  I drove back home last night.  I was surprised to see empty shelves in the grocery store.  Clerks say some people have gone batsh*t crazy about this illness.  Strangely illogical.  Seems like the chances of a car accident and many other things are still much higher, but people are people.

So,.......we are not out of the woods for a while, OK, I get it.

Before the illness I was hearing a lot of noise about stocks being overpriced per historic evaluation.  Some made reference to price / earnings ratios and other measures.  Once again I am asking you smart people.  How is the value in reference to historic measures after the "correction?"

Seeing the posts, I guess we should be taking some measures.  This illness is probably not a pretty way to cash out.

Depends what sector of the economy you are talking about but overall we are still high with a p/e of about 20 compared to a long-term average of approximately 16. See:  https://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-pe-ratio

You have to be careful with these measures of valuation though. There are significant differences between the stock markets of the 1960's and those of today which might cause the fair value p/e to be larger (i.e., greater market participation, different tax law, etc.) Also valuation always has to be viewed in light of interest rates and with the low rates we have today stocks actually look cheaper than they would if interest rates were higher but the p/e was lower.

If you believe the efficient market hypothesis there's really no such thing as over-valued and under-valued. The intrinsic value of a stock is constantly changing and is a complex combination of current performance, future expectations, and other stocks performance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 15, 2020, 12:43:27 AM

And if a big chunk of the market books losses in the coming quarter then the P/E could go up instead of down, not withstanding the share price drop....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 15, 2020, 08:26:03 AM

I'm planning to finally retire this Spring so the fall of stock prices concern me.  However, the causes seem to be temporary this time.  The price of oil will inevitably return to it's higher state.  People cannot hide away from this virus forever.  It's not the Bubonic plague where a major portion of the populace will be removed.  People will only hide away with their hoarded toilet paper so long until the bullsh#t flag is raised and schools will reopen and business will return to normal.  I figure a maximum of 2 months.

I somehow find it easier to lose money due to natural causes than due to the actions of the greedy men in 2008.

After the populace accepts the present status,  the economy will ramp up and I would expect stock prices to return to almost their former levels.  Since they were overpriced, they will probably rebound to a lower level than before the crash.  I'll still feel good when they go back up.

Is my prognosis off the mark?  I am not known as a seer.  I'd like to know the prediction of you folks.  From the entries that I've seen made you all are far more into the money thing than I ever want to be. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on March 15, 2020, 01:11:52 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 15, 2020, 08:26:03 AM

I'm planning to finally retire this Spring so the fall of stock prices concern me.  However, the causes seem to be temporary this time.  The price of oil will inevitably return to it's higher state.  People cannot hide away from this virus forever.  It's not the Bubonic plague where a major portion of the populace will be removed.  People will only hide away with their hoarded toilet paper so long until the bullsh#t flag is raised and schools will reopen and business will return to normal.  I figure a maximum of 2 months.

My son and I were discussing this last night on our apocalypse run to the grocery store (limited outages, generally not the end of the world, found everything we wanted except the kind of bottled water we prefer, and butter).

I think it will be much shorter - probably on the order of two weeks.

We also discussed what metric we would use to decide when things have subsided.  We decided one good metric would be what the top news headline of the day is.  He also opined that people in general can't remain scared of one topic for very long, and so the media out of necessity will switch to something else (plane crash, war, mass shooting, something like that would be my guess as to what will dislodge stupidVirus from page 1).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 15, 2020, 03:30:27 PM

2 weeks??

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on March 15, 2020, 03:43:17 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 15, 2020, 03:30:27 PM

2 weeks??

Yup.  That's my opinion.  But I am an eternal optimist.  We will see.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 15, 2020, 05:05:31 PM

Thanks - I don't think it is maximized yet.  More and more places seem to be cutting back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on March 15, 2020, 05:12:57 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 15, 2020, 03:43:17 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 15, 2020, 03:30:27 PM

2 weeks??

Yup.  That's my opinion.  But I am an eternal optimist.  We will see.

One of our state governments is opening a lot of hospital beds for elective surgery this week and next, so that they get rid of as much of that queue as possible before the coronavirus cases ramp up. They expect that to happen in a couple of weeks. I would expect 1 to 2 months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 15, 2020, 05:22:08 PM

Annd the Fed has just cut short term rates to zero% and futures are down nearly 5%.. This is a wild ride..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on March 15, 2020, 07:33:31 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 12, 2020, 02:34:50 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 12, 2020, 09:33:05 AM

Today is toe dipping day.. well maybe half a foot..:)

I have 17 years in bond+cash.. so I gotta rebalace a bit.

You have 17 years of expenses in bonds&cash? Wow - I thought I was extreme in having six years :-)
I think tomorrow is going to be my toe dipping day.

25 years for me.

Plus will have SS and a small pension.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on March 15, 2020, 08:03:37 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on March 15, 2020, 07:33:31 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 12, 2020, 02:34:50 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 12, 2020, 09:33:05 AM

Today is toe dipping day.. well maybe half a foot..:)

I have 17 years in bond+cash.. so I gotta rebalace a bit.

You have 17 years of expenses in bonds&cash? Wow - I thought I was extreme in having six years :-)
I think tomorrow is going to be my toe dipping day.

25 years for me.

Plus will have SS and a small pension.

We have 3 to 4 years in "cash".  The balance is >90% equities (ETF).  The last couple of weeks has been "interesting" but I am not too worried.  If the SHTF for more than our cash reserves we can always take SS which would cover 80 to 120% of our expenses.  I consider SS to be the fixed income portion of our portfolio and balance the rest accordingly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 16, 2020, 04:17:00 AM

The cash crunch will hit the poor and lower middle class very soon.  The current government is about to do a 180 on socialism.  I'm not shoving politial daggers here.  It's just that a social safety net will be of absolute necessity in coming weeks and months.  A lot of the people I hang out with are already on the verge of bankruptcy.   Not necessarily the legal form, just completely empty pockets.  Just ramping up their supplies killed their emergency fund.   Most didn't look at money the way we do, they were actually happy just getting by each month.  Many of thrir jobs are already shut down.  My workplace just canced the janitorial services!!!   WTF!  I work in a southern Louisiana chemical plant, many of our office wokers will be working from home.  Engineers, computer geeks, accountants, sales reps, managers, regulatory and compliance. Our scheduled big maintence turnarounds are canceled.  So no welders, pipefitters, carpenters, equipment operators, crane operators, general laborers, etc.  Only essential personal will be on site,  I'm one of those.  I've ridden out many hurricanes not at home, but at work. I'll be paid very well during this time.  I expect to work overtime actually, which I'd choose not to.  Our own core company employees will be paid unlese this gets much worse.   The contact labor may or may not get paid.  They will be getting unemployment checks.  Those don't cover a full load of debt long.  This isn't going to just ramp back up overnight. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 16, 2020, 04:33:47 AM

Stock futures halted looks like another sell off today though you never know how the day is going to end. Having said that the last super up day Friday a week or so back Monday was hit hard and we had a turn around Tuesday. Will that be the case this time? who knows. But, lets get through today and if we significantly drop  will put more in which will be the third time. The virus is real but so many things going on our just bat shit crazy like the PT hoarding. Its hard to keep up with all the closings its to the point just shut everything down for two weeks and be done with it. IMO its going to be 6 weeks before we start seeing light at the end of the tunnel but hope I am wrong. I feel for the Elderly that cant even get around groceries stores, sad enough they need to go out and get groceries but then they cant find or get the things they need. My goal is during this all to stay at least in this club! haha... 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: mjr on March 16, 2020, 05:33:29 AM

I have over 20 years of expenses in cash - deliberately not invested over the last 2-4 years so that I could sleep at night during the inevitable stock market armageddon.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on March 16, 2020, 06:02:52 AM

Honestly I think in the "real world" this is going to be a problem for at least a year.  I'll be really happy if this thing doesn't bite back next winter even after whatever we are about to go through but I'm planning my life on the assumption that this will go on for some time.  Already in the UK our government (generally criticised for not taking it seriously enough) is saying older/vulnerable people may be asked to self-isolate for 4 months or more, so if even the "relaxed" end of the spectrum is saying that this takes us into the summer I think we should prepare for at least that.

Of course, stock markets may improve before that, if the situation starts to stabilise.  And I've no doubt that in time retailers and governments together will figure out a way to keep us all fed and with access to toilet roll...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 16, 2020, 08:28:51 AM

Quote from: mjr on March 16, 2020, 05:33:29 AM

I have over 20 years of expenses in cash - deliberately not invested over the last 2-4 years so that I could sleep at night during the inevitable stock market armageddon.....

Indeed cash == comfort in these times. I wonder if younger people who are in the accumulation phase will get scarred by this experience.

I know that the Dotcom crash in 2000 absolutely had an impact on me so I have been a lot more cautious than many. I never stopped my automatic monthly/weekly investments through the 2000 and the 2008 crashes but I did make an effort to build up a healthy cash buffer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 16, 2020, 11:54:47 AM

Quote from: mjr on March 16, 2020, 05:33:29 AM

I have over 20 years of expenses in cash - deliberately not invested over the last 2-4 years so that I could sleep at night during the inevitable stock market armageddon.....

Hmmm, we had about half that after the sale of our last renovation project, but we just paid cash for an expensive used RV. So maybe now we only have seven year's expenses in cash reserves, but we have our own mobile isolation unit should we need one, for the win, right??

Also, we sold the last flip in September, and have found nothing that makes sense since, despite plenty of looking, number crunching and offer writing. Now we feel so fortunate that we're not in the middle of a project. I won't be surprised if this virus has a negative impact on the housing market, at least in the short term. BTW, we're FI and FIRE. We flip for fun, so not having a project in the pipeline is no hardship.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 16, 2020, 12:35:40 PM

Both my renters work at the local Hospital (the areas only major trauma unit).. This I assume means their jobs (and our rent checks) are safe..:)

We also have another $150k or so to drop in the market before my self imposed limit of having 7 years in bonds and cash.

I'm setting my remaining VTSAX buy points at 2200 and 2030.. roughly 35 and 40% down.

After that I'm buying food an ammunition!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 16, 2020, 01:47:13 PM

I don’t have much cash lying around, but have a steady job I feel secure in until this uncertain period passes.

I feel it will take me some time to get back to where I was, but you never know. A spark of optimism may hit the markets very, very soon if Europe get on top of the virus like China seem to have.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on March 16, 2020, 02:14:49 PM

I have about $70K in cash. I will slowly move most of it into stocks.  Today I just purchased another $7,000 in mainly total stock market index, with some in international index in order to meet my 2020 tIRA contribution. Time will tell if I'm the fool.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 16, 2020, 02:18:47 PM

Not that I think we're even close to the bottom of this, but another thing I remind myself of is how strong the rally was in 2009 once the market began to rebound.  Of course, things were priced for armageddon by the time we got to S&P 667 (many times businesses were valued below their liquidation value).  I don't think we're at the irrational point yet, but I have to get off my hands at some point and start putting some money in the market.  Maybe this Friday.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 16, 2020, 03:33:30 PM

Not to be rude about the situation, but won't the markets keep falling until there's a some sort of a sign that things are getting better?  This is going to be like a long slow hurricane, and the winds are just now starting to blow.




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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 16, 2020, 03:59:52 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 16, 2020, 03:33:30 PM

Not to be rude about the situation, but won't the markets keep falling until there's a some sort of a sign that things are getting better?  This is going to be like a long slow hurricane, and the winds are just now starting to blow.




[size=78%] [/size]

The markets will drop till we get to a point people are exhausted from selling, we reach a point its just gotten stupid and as much things are built in the market can think of , and the stimulus package is put in. One or all the above. At that point the recovery will most likely be based on how long it takes to rationalize or be able to put PE's on stocks and so on. This is why I never understood the case to base things on a 50% drop. Could be more could be close to the bottom now. Nobody knows and its just speculation. The surest thing is that it will come back at some point and the further it drops the better things are on sale. Since you cant guess the bottom add to your tolerance if you can on the way down. The biggest mistake is people get to a point they cant take seeing anymore of the falling knife and sell close to when things are going to slow down and perhaps turn. Crazy times right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 16, 2020, 05:21:13 PM

Here's the thing I kind of wonder in reading all of these comments in particular those of Bateaux.  As less people are working, the margin in the system is reduced.  They spend less on goods and services.  More people get laid off or fired and the margin is further reduced.  This action will have a sort of financial inertia.  It kind of takes on a life of it's own like a blazing fire consuming the hopes and dreams of people.

There have been complaints about bars and restaurants closing due to this pandemic.  Let's say they stay closed for a couple months.  In conjunction with that other people either are forced to stay home or their working hours are severely curtailed.  Less money is gained by these people.  After the two months, the bars and restaurants are set to reopen.  However, their customers have been tapped dry.  They have far fewer customers.  Without the cash flow from their former customers, they close.  Their employees are no longer employed.  They are not alone.  The downward spiral continues.  Without that margin, the system collapses in on itself.

And, you know, it's world wide.

I looked for a similar happenstance in history.  The Spanish flu of 1918 which killed 50-100 million people lasted a year or so.

It almost seems like chaos theory in action.  A few bats flapping their wings spreading a bit of virus in China unleashes a hurricane.

I hope it's only 2 weeks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on March 16, 2020, 05:34:40 PM

Universal basic income anybody??

Anyway, I'm going to start moving some more money towards my Dealing account. I'd forgotten how miserable buying sticks on sale always feels.... Particularly given the nature of the drivers for this one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 16, 2020, 05:57:30 PM

Quote from: LightTripper on March 16, 2020, 05:34:40 PM

Universal basic income anybody??

Anyway, I'm going to start moving some more money towards my Dealing account. I'd forgotten how miserable buying sticks on sale always feels.... Particularly given the nature of the drivers for this one.

Remember that markets are both forward looking and irrational. It certainly feels like we have a way to go to hit bottom but I have missed many a dip because I was expecting further pullbacks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on March 16, 2020, 06:45:11 PM

Yes exactly. I was planning to drip cash in over the next 2-3 years anyway. So just accelerating that a bit, but not going crazy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 17, 2020, 03:56:46 AM

Another 6 Digit drop. Yesterday was a ass kicker and I am down close to 450k ish. I am handling it thus far fine probably because i have the cash position i do and could mentally handle 3 more large drops before It would really bug me BUT any red I am adding to VTSAX today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 17, 2020, 04:06:11 AM

Fututes gave up all overnight gains. Back up the truck!

I got severely burned in 2013 trying to catch a falling knife with commodities, so will hold off until real market panic sets in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 17, 2020, 06:11:46 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 17, 2020, 04:06:11 AM

Fututes gave up all overnight gains. Back up the truck!

I got severely burned in 2013 trying to catch a falling knife with commodities, so will hold off until real market panic sets in.

Thats exactly why I am incrementally buying on percentage drops.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 17, 2020, 06:29:08 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 17, 2020, 06:11:46 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 17, 2020, 04:06:11 AM

Fututes gave up all overnight gains. Back up the truck!

I got severely burned in 2013 trying to catch a falling knife with commodities, so will hold off until real market panic sets in.

Thats exactly why I am incrementally buying on percentage drops.

I will keep buying too. I don’t have a huge amount to play with but will get my 2019 bonus next week so will add that to what I have.

At least if I buy now it brings down my average purchase price closer to today’s prices so I feel less bad about the difference between the average I have bought in at and today’s price.

Also, I want to be in the market as much as possible for a recovery if there is one.

If the market doesn’t recover then I am destined to work for ever. It will be what it will be.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 17, 2020, 07:04:22 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on March 17, 2020, 06:29:08 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 17, 2020, 06:11:46 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 17, 2020, 04:06:11 AM

Fututes gave up all overnight gains. Back up the truck!

I got severely burned in 2013 trying to catch a falling knife with commodities, so will hold off until real market panic sets in.

Thats exactly why I am incrementally buying on percentage drops.

I will keep buying too. I don’t have a huge amount to play with but will get my 2019 bonus next week so will add that to what I have.

At least if I buy now it brings down my average purchase price closer to today’s prices so I feel less bad about the difference between the average I have bought in at and today’s price.

Also, I want to be in the market as much as possible for a recovery if there is one.

If the market doesn’t recover then I am destined to work for ever. It will be what it will be.

If the market were not to recover there would be much worse things to worry about so it wouldn't matter much . It will recover

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 17, 2020, 07:25:58 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 15, 2020, 03:43:17 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 15, 2020, 03:30:27 PM

2 weeks??

Yup.  That's my opinion.  But I am an eternal optimist.  We will see.

That's not eternal optimism, that's delusion.   30 more days minimum and probably more like 90 days.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 17, 2020, 07:30:04 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 15, 2020, 08:26:03 AM

I'm planning to finally retire this Spring so the fall of stock prices concern me.  However, the causes seem to be temporary this time.  The price of oil will inevitably return to it's higher state.  People cannot hide away from this virus forever.  It's not the Bubonic plague where a major portion of the populace will be removed.  People will only hide away with their hoarded toilet paper so long until the bullsh#t flag is raised and schools will reopen and business will return to normal.  I figure a maximum of 2 months.

I somehow find it easier to lose money due to natural causes than due to the actions of the greedy men in 2008.

After the populace accepts the present status,  the economy will ramp up and I would expect stock prices to return to almost their former levels.  Since they were overpriced, they will probably rebound to a lower level than before the crash.  I'll still feel good when they go back up.

Is my prognosis off the mark?  I am not known as a seer.  I'd like to know the prediction of you folks.  From the entries that I've seen made you all are far more into the money thing than I ever want to be.

Personally, if I had a paycheck and benefits I would hold on to it until things settle down unless you saved way too much like having 25x after the 30% market drop.   Not taking money out to live and adding a bit more during these volatile times (however long it lasts) will be better financially.   And you always have the option to quit if you can't take anymore.  Options are good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 17, 2020, 07:31:57 AM

A decline in the US death rate seems like a natural turning point.  What other positive signal will matter to the markets before that occurs?  Unless the election happens first, God forbid it takes that long.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 17, 2020, 07:32:37 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 17, 2020, 04:06:11 AM

Fututes gave up all overnight gains. Back up the truck!

I got severely burned in 2013 trying to catch a falling knife with commodities, so will hold off until real market panic sets in.

Mega tech/High Growth Large companies have not dropped as much (or rose so much over the last 52 weeks they are only back to 2019 prices), is it possible that these stocks have to break harder before capitulation/max sell has set in?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on March 17, 2020, 09:40:03 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on March 17, 2020, 07:25:58 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 15, 2020, 03:43:17 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 15, 2020, 03:30:27 PM

2 weeks??

Yup.  That's my opinion.  But I am an eternal optimist.  We will see.

That's not eternal optimism, that's delusion.   30 more days minimum and probably more like 90 days.   

Well, consider me deluded if you like.  But to be clear (which I probably wasn't 100% in my original post), I think that sometime in the next two weeks some non-coronavirus headline will be the main headline on the main news websites.  See quote below with emphasis added.

I do think the virus will be with us indefinitely, and I do think we'll continue to have new cases and deaths for months, and I do think it will be in the news for a long time.

I am very curious to see how long the various restrictions, accommodations, and cancellations will remain in effect.  For example, my kids are in college and high school and they're all doing the virtual learning thing this semester.  What about this summer and this fall?  I don't know.  Also, will all of them subside at various rates and at various points in time, or will we decide everything is fine all at once?

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 15, 2020, 01:11:52 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 15, 2020, 08:26:03 AM

I'm planning to finally retire this Spring so the fall of stock prices concern me.  However, the causes seem to be temporary this time.  The price of oil will inevitably return to it's higher state.  People cannot hide away from this virus forever.  It's not the Bubonic plague where a major portion of the populace will be removed.  People will only hide away with their hoarded toilet paper so long until the bullsh#t flag is raised and schools will reopen and business will return to normal.  I figure a maximum of 2 months.

My son and I were discussing this last night on our apocalypse run to the grocery store (limited outages, generally not the end of the world, found everything we wanted except the kind of bottled water we prefer, and butter).

I think it will be much shorter - probably on the order of two weeks.

We also discussed what metric we would use to decide when things have subsided.  We decided one good metric would be what the top news headline of the day is.  He also opined that people in general can't remain scared of one topic for very long, and so the media out of necessity will switch to something else (plane crash, war, mass shooting, something like that would be my guess as to what will dislodge stupidVirus from page 1).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on March 17, 2020, 10:57:59 AM

I admire the fortitude of ya'll.  Your faith in the stock market is noteworthy... I've had my doubts and still do.    My modest portfolio has taken a real beating.  It's only my financial buffer, not my source of income, but it's hard to watch the train wreck when it's been going so swimmingly for so long.  I bought some VOO less than 2 weeks ago and it got hammered.    I'll leave everything alone and ride it out.

 I have 2 vacancies this month. One is a rental and one is to be sold.   That lack of cash flow sort of swallows up the available cash we have, so I won't be doing any major ETF buying of the dip.   I hope people are still buying houses so I don't have to hold it.  Our expenses are minimal for it (no mortgage), but, still....  I agree with those who think the fallout of this is just beginning.  There are too many people  looking at paycheck issues for this to right itself quickly.  As Bateaux pointed out, nearly the whole staff at his company is sidelined.  Multiply that by the whole world. Paychecks are faltering exponentially.   Most people don't have a buffer in good times. 

 Keep in mind that the self isolation is designed to flatten the curve so people get sick more slowly and the available medical resources aren't overwhelmed all at once.   People will still get sick, just more slowly. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 17, 2020, 08:02:37 PM

Bateaux update. There are four people that work the job I do, on 12 hour rotation.  So normally without overtime, 25 percent of my time is at work.  Well, we just lost 2 guys to unexplained fevers in their household.  So they are quarantined for 14 days.  So I'm now on a 7 shift on 7 shift off rotation.  Except they won't necessarily be cleared in time to return and give me my 7 off.  My wife and her sister are headed to the Florida house without me now.  My vacation time is cancelled!  The Shit is hitting the fan in Louisiana.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 17, 2020, 10:58:13 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 15, 2020, 03:30:27 PM

2 weeks??

Today we have just over 100 dead and 6200 confirmed cases. In two weeks, the people who have been exposed so far will nearly all be sick.  We will have about 40,000 confirmed cases, and over 2,000 dead. The market turmoil we’ve seen so far will seem like nothing as the full impact of the coming worldwide recession comes into sharper focus. I hope I’m wrong, but I predict everything is going to look a lot more bleak before it looks better.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 17, 2020, 11:29:29 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on March 17, 2020, 10:58:13 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 15, 2020, 03:30:27 PM

2 weeks??

Today we have just over 100 dead and 6200 confirmed cases. In two weeks, the people who have been exposed so far will nearly all be sick.  We will have about 40,000 confirmed cases, and over 2,000 dead. The market turmoil we’ve seen so far will seem like nothing as the full impact of the coming worldwide recession comes into sharper focus. I hope I’m wrong, but I predict everything is going to look a lot more bleak before it looks better.

Sadly that is the way an epidemic works - cold, hard exponential math.  We need to get the upward slope stabilized, then begin to slow.  Once we hit plateau, we can begin to hope the worst is over.  These latter stages are a long ways off until we, as a whole, take social distancing deadly seriously.

I'm just hoping we are not still in the denial / delusional phase which has been allowing the slope to continue to steepen.

On the bright side, more people are outside here during the day, enjoying life!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 18, 2020, 06:28:58 AM

Rolled some bonds over yesterday vs using some cash to buy more BUT futures look dismal today. Every day more and more companies are asking for money from the Government  to stay operational through this. Seems like we have a ways to go, along ways to go before things stabilize be my guess.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on March 18, 2020, 09:47:16 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 17, 2020, 11:29:29 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on March 17, 2020, 10:58:13 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 15, 2020, 03:30:27 PM

2 weeks??

Today we have just over 100 dead and 6200 confirmed cases. In two weeks, the people who have been exposed so far will nearly all be sick.  We will have about 40,000 confirmed cases, and over 2,000 dead. The market turmoil we’ve seen so far will seem like nothing as the full impact of the coming worldwide recession comes into sharper focus. I hope I’m wrong, but I predict everything is going to look a lot more bleak before it looks better.

Sadly that is the way an epidemic works - cold, hard exponential math.  We need to get the upward slope stabilized, then begin to slow.  Once we hit plateau, we can begin to hope the worst is over.  These latter stages are a long ways off until we, as a whole, take social distancing deadly seriously.

I'm just hoping we are not still in the denial / delusional phase which has been allowing the slope to continue to steepen.

On the bright side, more people are outside here during the day, enjoying life!

Does anyone know if the following site has accurate data?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

I note that from March 17 to March 18 in the USA, new deaths decreased from 23 to 7.

That data point is not consistent with an exponential growth curve.

It is possible the site is not a reliable source of information, although their about page seems good.

It is possible that it is a one day statistical blip.

It is possible that the swift panic/action by everyone has started to be successful.

I will be interested to watch the data over the next few weeks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: achvfi on March 18, 2020, 09:55:20 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 18, 2020, 09:47:16 AM

Does anyone know if the following site has accurate data?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

I note that from March 17 to March 18 in the USA, new deaths decreased from 23 to 7.

That data point is not consistent with an exponential growth curve.

It is possible the site is not a reliable source of information, although their about page seems good.

It is possible that it is a one day statistical blip.

It is possible that the swift panic/action by everyone has started to be successful.

I will be interested to watch the data over the next few weeks.

I am also interested in knowing accuracy of this data, who the sources are. But I have been following it for couple of weeks now.

If you look at instructions for the data, it resets 0 GMT everyday. So if you are looking for new death count for today you will have to wait until evening time in US. i.e. death rate continues to be in increasing trend.
These are due to disease contractions about 2-4 weeks ago.

I think the social distancing message effects will start probably after another 3 weeks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: RWD on March 18, 2020, 10:07:53 AM

I've been following this site:
https://hgis.uw.edu/virus/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 18, 2020, 10:39:31 AM

I’ve been following both Worldometer and this site:

https://ncov2019.live/data

Their numbers aren’t exactly in sync, but they are broadly consistent.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on March 18, 2020, 11:00:39 AM

Quote from: achvfi on March 18, 2020, 09:55:20 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 18, 2020, 09:47:16 AM

Does anyone know if the following site has accurate data?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

I note that from March 17 to March 18 in the USA, new deaths decreased from 23 to 7.

That data point is not consistent with an exponential growth curve.

It is possible the site is not a reliable source of information, although their about page seems good.

It is possible that it is a one day statistical blip.

It is possible that the swift panic/action by everyone has started to be successful.

I will be interested to watch the data over the next few weeks.

I am also interested in knowing accuracy of this data, who the sources are. But I have been following it for couple of weeks now.

If you look at instructions for the data, it resets 0 GMT everyday. So if you are looking for new death count for today you will have to wait until evening time in US. i.e. death rate continues to be in increasing trend.
These are due to disease contractions about 2-4 weeks ago.

I think the social distancing message effects will start probably after another 3 weeks.

Emphasis added.

Thank you.  I forgot the other option:  It is possible there is user error in understanding the data.  (This is an option I often ignore.  It would be wise for me to pay it more heed.)

I am still very interested to see when the rate of increase in death cases begins to drop.  The site I listed above was the first google-found data source that (a) gave me the data I was interested in, and (b) seemed reliable.  I picked it last night as the site to start watching before it showed data that appeared to be in line with my hoped-for outcome; in other words, I was not cherry-picking the site.  Although I could be fairly accused of cherry-picking the data.  I guess I'd prefer the term confirmation bias (that way I won't be as lonely).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 18, 2020, 11:29:26 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on March 13, 2020, 08:57:10 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 12, 2020, 09:03:06 PM

Looks like the lowest since 2017.  I have been hoarding some cash since I've been told for 2 years this drop was due.  Do you guys expect the disease fear to last for a few months?  I wonder if we're nearing the bottom.   Any cash I can put in will not make up for my losses, but it would be good to have it work for me.

This keeps going and I will be another dipping below the $2M mark.

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on March 12, 2020, 09:11:03 PM

We haven't gotten the worst of this yet.  Expect about 50% of the population to get hit with the Coronavirus, but the vast overwhelming majority will be fine, it will be like getting a cold.

So yes I'd expect the market to freak out more.  Schools are closing, we're definitely going to be in a recession, incomes are going to decline.

I have no idea when the bottom will peak. You just do your best and invest your cash and over the long term stocks are headed back up.

We've been through this rodeo before, just different issues freaked everyone out (understandably).

This.   There are absolutely 100's of thousands if not millions more people here and globally that have or have had the virus but can't or haven't or won't be tested (no kits, not severe enough symptoms) and while this is perfectly logical the irrational will continue to win out as the numbers increase dramatically over the next 30 days. 

My probabilities for the next 30-90 days:
Get back to correction territory (10% off highs) - 2%
Range bound between Dec 2018 Lows and 20% off highs - 75%
down another 10% from high - 20%
Hit 50% down from highs - 3%

Well we broke the 2018 Lows for S&P 500.   I somewhat think we need the mega tech/high growth (assume QQQ for benchmark) to break back in line to hit a bottom - but that is another 15% or so down for the QQQ to catch up and that would be more painful

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: honeyfill on March 18, 2020, 12:05:02 PM

I never look at my accounts when the market is going down. It's bad luck!  but I am pretty sure I dropped below the $2M mark-possibly just barely hanging on.
I  am mostly already in equities but I could cash in a pension, max out my HELOC and and scrape together some cash to put in the market.  I would move from 90% stocks to 110% stocks.*  I hate to try to time the market but it cant go too much lower can it?
 I am presently working for a defense contractor , no way they govt is going to cut defense spending. At least not until Biden gets in office.  That means I'll be working for at least another year.  I wont need the cash or pension and I make enough to easily service the loan.   

Is the idea  crazy or genius?
I'm leaning toward crazy, so I will probably  just stay put.

* I count the leveraged money as extra risk, that is why I use 110% and not 100%

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on March 18, 2020, 12:24:43 PM

When everyone is very afraid and it looks like there's no hope for the future is usually the best time to put money in the market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on March 18, 2020, 12:27:10 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on March 18, 2020, 12:05:02 PM

I never look at my accounts when the market is going down. It's bad luck!  but I am pretty sure I dropped below the $2M mark-possibly just barely hanging on.
I  am mostly already in equities but I could cash in a pension, max out my HELOC and and scrape together some cash to put in the market.  I would move from 90% stocks to 110% stocks.*  I hate to try to time the market but it cant go too much lower can it?
 I am presently working for a defense contractor , no way they govt is going to cut defense spending. At least not until Biden gets in office.  That means I'll be working for at least another year.  I wont need the cash or pension and I make enough to easily service the loan.   

Is the idea  crazy or genius?
I'm leaning toward crazy, so I will probably  just stay put.

* I count the leveraged money as extra risk, that is why I use 110% and not 100%

Yes, the market can go lower.  See today's market as an example.  See also tomorrow's market as a possible example ;)

I personally am OK with someone at 100% stocks.  I am at about 95% stocks now.  But for me the benefit of going above 100% isn't worth the risk.  The reason for that is that to go above 100%, you have to use leverage, which means borrowing, which means borrowing costs.  You have to pay for that HELOC interest first before any return is yours, and you may have to pay it back sooner than those returns materialize.

While your job may be secure, and the economy in the long run is probably going to be fine, in the interim things may get (are getting?) bad.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 18, 2020, 03:51:52 PM

I'ts on everyone's lips.  It's on the TV, internet and the printed media.  These all drive you to think, "Yeh, this is bad!"  So, I look at the old Dow Jones chart showing the history of the ups and downs.  You can see it too with a click.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart (https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart)

Look at our dip (so far) compared to 1929.  Those old timers really had a storm to weather.  In relative terms, it looks less severe than 2008.  (Good thing)

I don't think I'll have to head to California to pick grapes.

Note:  The dip in 2018 was quite transient.  How much buying time do you think there is this time?  People have been saying for some time that we were due for a recession.  Doesn't this give quite some time to buy in near the bottom?  However, I note that even 1929 had quite the bounce from the bottom.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 18, 2020, 04:18:57 PM

The problem is we have no way of knowing if we are at the bottom or not. I've buy points in my head at 2200 and 2030.. But maybe we are headed for 1800?

The other problem that concerns me a little that bond funds sometimes go down with the stock market, VBTLX for example has been going down in value over the last few days.

So right now I have about 8 years or so in yearly spend in bonds and 2 years in cash and I'd be happy down to about 7 years worth total but that 7 years might not be a lot less by the time we bottom out.

I'd hate to have to find something awful like a JOB or something.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on March 18, 2020, 04:25:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 18, 2020, 04:18:57 PM

I'd hate to have to find something awful like a JOB or something.

From what I've seen on another board where people have been FIREd for longer than most here, the general pattern seems to be a great willingness to reduce expenses and a great lack of willingness for the JOB thing.

(I'm not there yet, but that would be my inclination as well.  I can be very cheap if need be, and I'm cheap most of the time anyway.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 18, 2020, 04:36:48 PM

We're down $295,000 since the end of last year.  This still shall pass.

We'll be fine assuming we stay reasonably healthy.

I'm more worried about regular folks, both their health and their finances.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 18, 2020, 04:47:22 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 18, 2020, 04:18:57 PM

The problem is we have no way of knowing if we are at the bottom or not. I've buy points in my head at 2200 and 2030.. But maybe we are headed for 1800?

The other problem that concerns me a little that bond funds sometimes go down with the stock market, VBTLX for example has been going down in value over the last few days.

So right now I have about 8 years or so in yearly spend in bonds and 2 years in cash and I'd be happy down to about 7 years worth total but that 7 years might not be a lot less by the time we bottom out.

I'd hate to have to find something awful like a JOB or something.

Bonds are getting hit too, even though they should be going up due to lower interest rates and flight to safety.  The problem is that spreads have blown out and the now potential supply from a trillion+ fed package is hurting bonds.   Nowhere to hide other than cash at the moment.   

I did another rebalance today though of about 5%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 19, 2020, 03:39:08 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 18, 2020, 04:36:48 PM

We're down $295,000 since the end of last year.  This still shall pass.

We'll be fine assuming we stay reasonably healthy.

I'm more worried about regular folks, both their health and their finances.   

We are now down 12.5% since the peak. For comparison, my invested net worth dropped 40% between 2008 and 2009.

Like @SwordGuy I am worried more about others than myself.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 19, 2020, 03:43:36 AM

Yeah another hit yesterday but my guess and I have no reason other than gut reaction that we will at least find a temporary bottom around where were at somewhere close. Think there will be more downside but I think the stimulus package and the big sell off will not sink the boat at least for now. If it does I am just going to stick to my plan and add dry powder every 5% down, live off cash and re-balance as well. All i can control and in long run will hopefully better off than I was. Soooo many people freaking out and I get it but wow... this is how it works. It would be nice not to see a huge snap back today but more of a sideways day i feel as well. Sure the snap back would look better on my balance but I think a sideways day would show things are stabilizing a bit. Again more gut from going through other cycles BUT the worse is always when your going through it now and until we temper the fear who knows anything.

For the first time since the outbreak China reported 0 cases overnight so hopefully that will be news that tempers a bit the minds of the doomsdayers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 19, 2020, 08:51:55 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 18, 2020, 04:36:48 PM

We're down $295,000 since the end of last year.  This still shall pass.

We'll be fine assuming we stay reasonably healthy.

I'm more worried about regular folks, both their health and their finances.   

Forgot to update the balance on one account in my spreadsheet.  Only down $264,000!   

What's a quarter of a million dollars (and change) among friends, eh?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 19, 2020, 08:57:52 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 19, 2020, 03:39:08 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 18, 2020, 04:36:48 PM

We're down $295,000 since the end of last year.  This still shall pass.

We'll be fine assuming we stay reasonably healthy.

I'm more worried about regular folks, both their health and their finances.   

We are now down 12.5% since the peak. For comparison, my invested net worth dropped 40% between 2008 and 2009.

Like @SwordGuy I am worried more about others than myself.

Markets down 30% so that implies you were 60% ish in cash and bonds.     Or is much of your NW real estate, which isn't re-marked?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 19, 2020, 09:08:06 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on March 19, 2020, 08:57:52 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 19, 2020, 03:39:08 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 18, 2020, 04:36:48 PM

We're down $295,000 since the end of last year.  This still shall pass.

We'll be fine assuming we stay reasonably healthy.

I'm more worried about regular folks, both their health and their finances.   

We are now down 12.5% since the peak. For comparison, my invested net worth dropped 40% between 2008 and 2009.

Like @SwordGuy I am worried more about others than myself.

Markets down 30% so that implies you were 60% ish in cash and bonds.     Or is much of your NW real estate, which isn't re-marked?

A bit over half of our net worth was real estate.  Higher percentage now, of course.  We own 9 houses, 1/3 of one farm and 1/2 of another farm.  All but two houses are owned free and clear.   My wife's 401K and some of my older ones have a higher bond percentage in them than I would have preferred for the long term.   We'll talk things over this weekend and possibly move some of those bonds into stocks.

We finally closed out the last of my mom's accounts and though I had moved the cash out of the line item for her accounts, I had forgotten to update our checking account balance.    Simple mistake, but better to be surprised at having more than having less!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on March 19, 2020, 10:59:46 AM

Well I've put a little bit in today again. I am constrained by my Debit card limit for transferring money to my trading account. I started to call the bank to do a larger transfer but understandably they are asking for urgent calls only, which I can hardly rationalise this as, given presumably many others are calling about urgent solvency issues.

It will be good for me to have the brakes applied, I always tend to dive in too fast in these situations. And the bank call message was a useful reminder that many have far bigger and more immediate concerns than the date of their retirement....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 19, 2020, 12:36:21 PM

I been following a company's stock over the years because a friend was an executive there.  Last night I saw that it had been trading yesterday for 25% of the high last year ($7.50 vs $30 per share), so decided to pick some up today.  I'm used to trading index funds and had forgotten that large orders of stocks might not all get filled at the same price.  I probably should have put in a number of smaller orders to get a better price overall price, but I'm still learning. 


I think I'll play around with the stock screener and see if I can figure out how to find other stocks that are down 75% from their highs & see if I find anything interesting. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 19, 2020, 12:51:17 PM

Buying a stock because it *used* to trade at a certain price is a form of anchoring, and a terrible way to pick stocks. Investment psychology is fascinating, and the amount of mistakes people make because of human nature is, quite frankly staggering.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 19, 2020, 01:06:36 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 19, 2020, 12:51:17 PM

Buying a stock because it *used* to trade at a certain price is a form of anchoring, and a terrible way to pick stocks. Investment psychology is fascinating, and the amount of mistakes people make because of human nature is, quite frankly staggering.

I never read about "anchoring".  I'll have to google that and see why I shouldn't do it. 


Btw, what should I read about non-terrible ways to pick stocks? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MoseyingAlong on March 19, 2020, 01:10:17 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 19, 2020, 01:06:36 PM

...
I never read about "anchoring".  I'll have to google that and see why I shouldn't do it. 
...

For anchoring and other biases, I highly recommend Dan Ariely and his books about behavioral finance, particularly "Predictably Irrational."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on March 19, 2020, 01:55:51 PM

I use the data from this site managed by Johns Hopkins.

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

It also is the site I see quoted in the news most frequently.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 19, 2020, 03:47:43 PM

Quote from: MoseyingAlong on March 19, 2020, 01:10:17 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 19, 2020, 01:06:36 PM

...
I never read about "anchoring".  I'll have to google that and see why I shouldn't do it. 
...

For anchoring and other biases, I highly recommend Dan Ariely and his books about behavioral finance, particularly "Predictably Irrational."

I found a Ted Talks he did about Predictably Irrational.  I'll start with that.


Thanks

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on March 19, 2020, 05:55:58 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 19, 2020, 03:39:08 AM

We are now down 12.5% since the peak. For comparison, my invested net worth dropped 40% between 2008 and 2009.

I dared to open my portfolio spreadsheet this morning and let it update. Down 21%. Not bad. Was at 80/20, now at 75/25. I should buy more stocks, but...hmmm. I’ll wait a bit. I did do some tax loss harvesting with international stocks.

In ‘09 we were down 50% at one point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 19, 2020, 06:43:53 PM

Lots of food for thought on the latest EconTalk podcast - https://www.econtalk.org/tyler-cowen-on-the-covid-19-pandemic/

we live in some fascinating, quick moving times!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 20, 2020, 02:47:41 AM

Quadruple witching day today....Should be a lot of volatility in the market at the open and the close. Yesterdays action seem the first health day since this outbreak but with the way bad news keeps pouring in not sure its going to make much difference.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 20, 2020, 03:40:49 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 20, 2020, 02:47:41 AM

Quadruple witching day today....Should be a lot of volatility in the market at the open and the close. Yesterdays action seem the first health day since this outbreak but with the way bad news keeps pouring in not sure its going to make much difference.

Yup - having the market go sideways was a relief. Much prefer it to wild swings.

On another positive note, money market funds are being propped up as well (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/business/federal-reserve-mutual-funds-coronavirus-aid.html)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 20, 2020, 06:27:49 AM

There are predictions that next weeks unemployment claims will top 2,000,000+, and I'm wondering how the market will melt down on that. Q2 earnings/GDP contraction will also hurt. I wish the market would just bottom out and get it over with.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 20, 2020, 07:37:20 AM

Quote from: AdrianC on March 19, 2020, 05:55:58 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 19, 2020, 03:39:08 AM

We are now down 12.5% since the peak. For comparison, my invested net worth dropped 40% between 2008 and 2009.

I dared to open my portfolio spreadsheet this morning and let it update. Down 21%. Not bad. Was at 80/20, now at 75/25. I should buy more stocks, but...hmmm. I’ll wait a bit. I did do some tax loss harvesting with international stocks.

In ‘09 we were down 50% at one point.

I sold my taxable international and rolled some bonds to a similar but not substantially similar in my tax deferred and also rolled some VTSAX with gains in same way.   Still have some tax losses that can and will be used at some point.  It was all for the tax losses and maintained my AA overall.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 20, 2020, 08:00:40 AM

True confession time; hold the face punches, please. We use a money manager. After much research during my single days, I found someone whose philosophy is mustachian enough for me. When DH and I married seven years ago, we combined our resources under the same advisor. DH had begun to balk at their fees, usually around tax time. I knew we could DIY this, but having a widely diversified portfolio that I do not manage directly saved my ass in 2000 and 2008. Anyway, because I'd had an account with Vanguard through a previous employer in my maiden name (long since rolled over), we hit a glitch. The result of which is that it just didn't get done.

In down times, I can and do easily avoid checking balances, because I know they are being managed by someone far more competent than I. Personal history has shown that a widely diversified strategy really helps when the market tanks. This morning, over breakfast, DH and I were discussing how all the gains during the Trump Administration have now been erased. We then discussed how much worse off we'd likely be if we had completed the move to Vanguard (Nothing against Vanguard. We just would have DIY'd a much less diversified portfolio.) DH blurted out how much our portfolio has dropped. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that we are down far less than the stock market as a whole, and that we still qualify to be in this club. Cool!

In other news, our Donor Advised Fund is with Fidelity, and 100% in stocks. Damn, I wish I'd issued some checks in early February!. Ouch. Fortunately,  it's not large, and not part of our NW calculations. Neither is the small inherited 401k I have, which is also all in stocks. It was my plan to roll the RMD's into the DAF. I guess I still can, but dang, I don't want to look at the balances! I think I'll ignore them both until Q4. Perhaps our outstanding charitable commitments will just be cash flowed this year. MPP, for sure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 20, 2020, 10:43:50 AM

We are down quite a bit. In actual terms an eye watering amount of money, evaporating. That said, it's hard for me to get worked up about it, because of course not actual loss (yet) & feeling so grateful that we are in an amazing place to ride out the storm regardless.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 20, 2020, 12:23:12 PM

I am feeling pretty bummed about my mounting losses. I have been second guessing myself whether I should have had less in stocks, but I keep coming to the same conclusion that I would do nothing different if I had my time again and that my investments were and are appropriate. It’s just a bit of bad luck that this virus hit just before I got to FIRE. On the other hand it’s also good luck that I hadn’t resigned yet and I can hold onto my job until the uncertainty is behind us. I will keep buying in the hope and belief that there will be a recovery in the next year or 3.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 20, 2020, 01:07:18 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on March 20, 2020, 12:23:12 PM

I am feeling pretty bummed about my mounting losses. I have been second guessing myself whether I should have had less in stocks, but I keep coming to the same conclusion that I would do nothing different if I had my time again and that my investments were and are appropriate. It’s just a bit of bad luck that this virus hit just before I got to FIRE. On the other hand it’s also good luck that I hadn’t resigned yet and I can hold onto my job until the uncertainty is behind us. I will keep buying in the hope and belief that there will be a recovery in the next year or 3.

And when it does recover, all that investing out of payroll will turn out to be a whopping big bonus for waiting.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 20, 2020, 01:28:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 17, 2020, 08:02:37 PM

Bateaux update. There are four people that work the job I do, on 12 hour rotation.  So normally without overtime, 25 percent of my time is at work.  Well, we just lost 2 guys to unexplained fevers in their household.  So they are quarantined for 14 days.  So I'm now on a 7 shift on 7 shift off rotation.  Except they won't necessarily be cleared in time to return and give me my 7 off.  My wife and her sister are headed to the Florida house without me now.  My vacation time is cancelled!  The Shit is hitting the fan in Louisiana.

Bateaux update:

Bateaux has no update.   Still working 12 hour night shift.  It's possible, I'll have Monday and Tuesday off. 

Wife not going to Florida now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 20, 2020, 03:24:40 PM

Speaking of (non) travel and with bond funds taking a hit alongside stocks I wondered what our base spend (i.e without travel other non essential spend)  would look like and compared that with our available cash.

I assumed our dividend payments might take a 30% hit too.

I came up with a comfortable cushion of about 6 years, so assuming this thing turns out to be not much worse than the 2008 pullback we would be OK without having to pull anything from our investments.

I guess these are nerve calming calculations at this point, but I'm sure glad we don't have any debt!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 20, 2020, 04:17:26 PM

I would not care to work 12 hour shifts.

I may have to work some in a few weeks if they don't shut our jobs down.

Years of income taken from me due to this current chaos.  It would take years of 12 hour shifts to get it back.

But,......Spring will still be here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Threshkin on March 20, 2020, 04:38:37 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 20, 2020, 06:27:49 AM

There are predictions that next weeks unemployment claims will top 2,000,000+, and I'm wondering how the market will melt down on that. Q2 earnings/GDP contraction will also hurt. I wish the market would just bottom out and get it over with.

I finally threw in the towel and moved all my tax deferred accounts to cash positions.  I had to stop the bleeding.

So I expect that the bottom is now in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 20, 2020, 05:06:35 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on March 20, 2020, 04:38:37 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 20, 2020, 06:27:49 AM

There are predictions that next weeks unemployment claims will top 2,000,000+, and I'm wondering how the market will melt down on that. Q2 earnings/GDP contraction will also hurt. I wish the market would just bottom out and get it over with.

I finally threw in the towel and moved all my tax deferred accounts to cash positions.  I had to stop the bleeding.

So I expect that the bottom is now in.

Wow!!!!!!   Not criticizing, you may be right or not, but you need to do what is right for you.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 20, 2020, 06:36:47 PM

I moved about 25% into cash before the market started dropping. It was the Monday before the first Tuesday 1000+ point drop. I knew I should be moving everything, but I’ve been a buy and hold guy for 20 years, and it has served me well; so it was a big step to move what I did. I was confident enough that we were heading this direction that I should have sold the rest at -10%, but I didn’t. At this point, my remaining equity positions will ride this out, I’m happy my rental is paid off and my real estate positions are solid, and I have a chunk of cash waiting to go back in. Plus I’m still working, so new annual contributions are buying at a discount. But those equities, painful as it is to watch them drop, are staying fully invested for the long term.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on March 20, 2020, 06:42:23 PM

Quote from: Threshkin on March 20, 2020, 04:38:37 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 20, 2020, 06:27:49 AM

There are predictions that next weeks unemployment claims will top 2,000,000+, and I'm wondering how the market will melt down on that. Q2 earnings/GDP contraction will also hurt. I wish the market would just bottom out and get it over with.

I finally threw in the towel and moved all my tax deferred accounts to cash positions.  I had to stop the bleeding.

So I expect that the bottom is now in.

It's very stressful to watch years of hard earned savings evaporate.  I checked in this morning, was horrified, then sold all of my Consumer Discretionary ETF's and about half of my recently bought, tanking foreign ETF's.   I have very few holdings still in the green, most are in the red.  My overall return is about 10%- total.  About 4 out of 5 of my holdings are negative from purchase price.  That's dismal.   I'm much newer to this than most of you.   I had mortgages on the rentals at 6%, so glad I paid those off and don't have to worry so much about juggling cash flow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on March 20, 2020, 07:43:19 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 18, 2020, 11:00:39 AM

Quote from: achvfi on March 18, 2020, 09:55:20 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 18, 2020, 09:47:16 AM

Does anyone know if the following site has accurate data?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

I note that from March 17 to March 18 in the USA, new deaths decreased from 23 to 7.

That data point is not consistent with an exponential growth curve.

It is possible the site is not a reliable source of information, although their about page seems good.

It is possible that it is a one day statistical blip.

It is possible that the swift panic/action by everyone has started to be successful.

I will be interested to watch the data over the next few weeks.

I am also interested in knowing accuracy of this data, who the sources are. But I have been following it for couple of weeks now.

If you look at instructions for the data, it resets 0 GMT everyday. So if you are looking for new death count for today you will have to wait until evening time in US. i.e. death rate continues to be in increasing trend.
These are due to disease contractions about 2-4 weeks ago.

I think the social distancing message effects will start probably after another 3 weeks.

Emphasis added.

Thank you.  I forgot the other option:  It is possible there is user error in understanding the data.  (This is an option I often ignore.  It would be wise for me to pay it more heed.)

I am still very interested to see when the rate of increase in death cases begins to drop.  The site I listed above was the first google-found data source that (a) gave me the data I was interested in, and (b) seemed reliable.  I picked it last night as the site to start watching before it showed data that appeared to be in line with my hoped-for outcome; in other words, I was not cherry-picking the site.  Although I could be fairly accused of cherry-picking the data.  I guess I'd prefer the term confirmation bias (that way I won't be as lonely).

As of right now, the number of new cases today compared to yesterday was up (4530->5786) but the number of new deaths was down (57->55).  I am hopeful that this is a turning point in the story.  I will be interested to see if or when the news reports that we have turned the corner; I suspect it will be some time from now.

ETA:  Even though it is now past 0:00 GMT and the site is supposed to be real time data, the numbers are still changing slightly.  Even so, if you look at the data, it clearly indicates that we have gone from an exponential rate of increase to a linear rate of increase to essentially flat in the last few days.  Again, maybe the data is wrong or inaccurate, or I'm misreading it, or whatever.  But I'm still hopeful for the moment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 21, 2020, 02:00:53 AM

I am a little surprised that some people here are (for want of a less emotive phrase) panic selling.

There will be a bottom and there will be a recovery.

In 2009 the S&P500 was below 900 points and even today it is still above 2,300 points. Even after this fall, stock values have grown impressively over the past 11 years, and have paid dividends on top.

Like I said, I am second guessing myself as I have been piling all my savings into equity in recent years, in what was a heated market. A correction was always likely, but I chose to ignore the risk. After some groaning I have come to the conclusion that I am am ok with that. The stock market has always been boom and bust and I choose to go along for the ride.

Fundamentally  I would have thought people here were firmly in the camp of belief that over long periods of time your savings will provide the greatest rerun being invested in stocks.

If you keep buying on the way down then you are reducing the average purchase price of your portfolio and you will reap the returns when the stock market finally and inevitably recovers.

I would only be selling at this point if I had no job/ or a job at risk, and insufficient cash reserves to last at least a year. Otherwise I would think it better to sit back and wait, live off your salary or cash reserves, and continue buying into the market if you can.

Keep your eyes firmly focused on the long term and not the short term noise.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 21, 2020, 03:37:18 AM

Yikes, plenty of great lessons over on Bogleheads of folks who sold out near the bottom and missed a huge portion of the recovery. Hopefully you maintained enough of equity exposure to at least somewhat benefit from the up.

This is a great time to write out an ISP to prevent something like this from happening again.

I learned a few years ago I don't have the stomach for more than 50% equities, and reduced my exposure to ~40% over the past 6 months prior to markets hitting recent highs. Now that % is closer to 25%. No way we have bottomed yet though.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/hell-coming-mathematical-proof-185019616.html

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 21, 2020, 03:47:04 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on March 20, 2020, 12:23:12 PM

I am feeling pretty bummed about my mounting losses. I have been second guessing myself whether I should have had less in stocks, but I keep coming to the same conclusion that I would do nothing different if I had my time again and that my investments were and are appropriate. It’s just a bit of bad luck that this virus hit just before I got to FIRE. On the other hand it’s also good luck that I hadn’t resigned yet and I can hold onto my job until the uncertainty is behind us. I will keep buying in the hope and belief that there will be a recovery in the next year or 3.

My situation is similar. My plan was to retire in September after completing a year at the startup where I'm working. But the company has funding for another year (with the possibility of raising more cash) and the work is interesting. So my current approach is to just keep at it until something happens to get me to stop. No harm in stashing some more cash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 21, 2020, 05:31:59 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 20, 2020, 04:17:26 PM

I would not care to work 12 hour shifts.

I may have to work some in a few weeks if they don't shut our jobs down.

Years of income taken from me due to this current chaos.  It would take years of 12 hour shifts to get it back.

But,......Spring will still be here.

Currently 60 hours into 12 hour nights this week.  24 hours of shift left.  Hopefully off Monday and Tuesday.  Best thing is I've been to busy to visit a store and have skipped the mania.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 21, 2020, 09:08:37 AM

I've been investing in gasoline for our boats.  I wish I'd invested in a few 55 gallon drums to store it in.  :)


Can't believe gas is $1.79 & diesel is $2.17 today. 




I noticed that the Carnival cruise lines stocks gained 20% yesterday.  I bet they filled up their fleet with cheap fuel too! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 21, 2020, 11:15:58 AM

More unwanted ruminations:

When this is all said and done, will there not be a pent up demand for everything from toilet paper to cars that will jump start the economy again?  Will the economy actually recover in a better position?  Weak companies will die, but the strong shall survive.

Maybe the time off will provide a time for people to think.  A lot of people are constantly on the go and have no time to think.  A little downtime may actually enable people to come up with innovative ideas.  When the quarantine period is finally over, these ideas will be implemented.  Maybe, we'll have some solutions to global warming.

Since this period is putting people outside their comfort zone, there will be some thinking "out of the box"  This could certainly lead to some interesting developments / improvements.  Although they are short term thinkers, I'll bet our political leaders and CEOs will not want another pandemic.  The country and maybe even the world may end up with better health care support.  Necessity is the mother of invention.

A new Spring is now upon us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 21, 2020, 01:51:44 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 21, 2020, 11:15:58 AM

More unwanted ruminations:

When this is all said and done, will there not be a pent up demand for everything from toilet paper to cars that will jump start the economy again?  Will the economy actually recover in a better position?  Weak companies will die, but the strong shall survive.

Maybe the time off will provide a time for people to think.  A lot of people are constantly on the go and have no time to think.  A little downtime may actually enable people to come up with innovative ideas.  When the quarantine period is finally over, these ideas will be implemented.  Maybe, we'll have some solutions to global warming.

Since this period is putting people outside their comfort zone, there will be some thinking "out of the box"  This could certainly lead to some interesting developments / improvements.  Although they are short term thinkers, I'll bet our political leaders and CEOs will not want another pandemic.  The country and maybe even the world may end up with better health care support.  Necessity is the mother of invention.

A new Spring is now upon us.

There will certainly be change.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 21, 2020, 02:02:06 PM

Bateaux update:

Still in the 2M liquid club.  About 60K left till my go to work if retired trigger hits.  Luckily still working.   It's obvious now that in a black swan event employment could be rather difficult to find.  My OMY may be extended.  My FIRE trigger was 2.5M.  Came within 75K of that.  Seeing what shakes out of this crisis will define future targets.   Happily we only have to deal with the virus.  My entire household is still going to work.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: mjr on March 21, 2020, 02:25:11 PM

When I lament how rich I'd feel if I'd sold out out of everything in January, when reality kicks in again I recall how much capital gains tax I'd have paid and now I'd be all in cash, earnng nothing, agonising over when to get back in.

Much better to know that the only realistic course of action was to do nothing and watch it all come back over the next months/years.  Although I still agonise a bit as to whether and when to deploy the significant cash reserve I kept aside for just such an event.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on March 21, 2020, 02:45:03 PM

On a different note, I just watched the episode on Netflix's "Dirty Money", titled Guardian Inc.

It's about how court systems attempt to declare elderly, but competent individuals, incapacitated. In being declared incapacitated a legal guardian is appointed, and the guardian proceeds to pillage the estate of the elderly person, now called the "ward" of the state.
This seems to happen to elderly people in their late 70's to early 80's. 
Just shocking and disturbing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 21, 2020, 03:00:11 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on March 21, 2020, 02:45:03 PM

On a different note, I just watched the episode on Netflix's "Dirty Money", titled Guardian Inc.

It's about how court systems attempt to declare elderly, but competent individuals, incapacitated. In being declared incapacitated a legal guardian is appointed, and the guardian proceeds to pillage the estate of the elderly person, now called the "ward" of the state.
This seems to happen to elderly people in their late 70's to early 80's. 
Just shocking and disturbing.

Raise good kids.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 21, 2020, 03:43:53 PM

Checking in here after a while away. I’m not spending as much time online now as when I was still working.

This is certainly a remarkable downturn, and so sudden, but this is exactly why we write ISPs and preach the importance of buy-and-hold. I’m surprised also at the people here who are panicking and selling. Hasn’t history shown again and again that the right move is to stay the course, no matter how white-knuckle the ride is?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on March 21, 2020, 03:46:59 PM

Put it this way: if that isn't the right strategy, we have bigger things to worry about than the date of our retirement...

But are people really selling? I must be on the wrong (right?!?!) threads!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 21, 2020, 06:07:48 PM

Quote from: LightTripper on March 21, 2020, 03:46:59 PM

Put it this way: if that isn't the right strategy, we have bigger things to worry about than the date of our retirement...

But are people really selling? I must be on the wrong (right?!?!) threads!

I sold a bunch early February.  Pretty much a permanent position thing unless bargains can't be passed up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 21, 2020, 07:19:04 PM

We are selling bonds and buying stocks as part of rebalancing

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 21, 2020, 10:28:32 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 21, 2020, 07:19:04 PM

We are selling bonds and buying stocks as part of rebalancing

Bonds are going to start to suck once interest rates climb.  So either cash or cheap stocks that will survive and grow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 22, 2020, 01:41:14 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 21, 2020, 10:28:32 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 21, 2020, 07:19:04 PM

We are selling bonds and buying stocks as part of rebalancing

Bonds are going to start to suck once interest rates climb.  So either cash or cheap stocks that will survive and grow.

Global economies are actually in quite a mess in terms of this.  I can't imagine anyone will be raising their benchmark rates anytime soon. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 22, 2020, 04:35:47 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 22, 2020, 01:41:14 AM

Global economies are actually in quite a mess in terms of this.  I can't imagine anyone will be raising their benchmark rates anytime soon.

I second this. I don't see governments raising interest rates for a long time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 22, 2020, 09:54:17 AM

Low gas prices, over 2 million saved (as of last week), Spring is here, we feel healthy and I've got a job.

Global pandemic, overdue recession on the way, country deep in debt, sick people with no health care

It is the best of times, it is the worst of times.

SSDD

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 22, 2020, 01:18:30 PM

I was feeling fine until last week when my bond funds started to take a hit.

Its weird I mean we in this group (OK I'm NOT in this group anymore, but not by much) have vast financial resources compared with the average person.

Not sure why this worried me so much, we have 2.5 years of cash with regular spend and more like 6 years if we tighten our belts (can't travel anywhere after all). Plus access to a pension that would replace our rent if it needed to.

Not as mentally tough as I thought I was perhaps?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roland of Gilead on March 22, 2020, 02:11:01 PM

Should retitle this Race from $4M to $2M

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 22, 2020, 02:19:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 22, 2020, 01:18:30 PM

I was feeling fine until last week when my bond funds started to take a hit.

Its weird I mean we in this group (OK I'm NOT in this group anymore, but not by much) have vast financial resources compared with the average person.

Not sure why this worried me so much, we have 2.5 years of cash with regular spend and more like 6 years if we tighten our belts (can't travel anywhere after all). Plus access to a pension that would replace our rent if it needed to.

Not as mentally tough as I thought I was perhaps?

This isn't one we've planned for.  It's ok to be worried.   Like you stated, we are all in a much better position to ride this out.  Mustacian habits will help even more.  Cut spending to absolute necessities.   Here in Louisiana we just received shut down orders for all nonessential business.   Basically stay in your homes except when absolutely necessary.   We're all financial preppers and probably a bit on the general prepper side as well.  I've ridden out many hurricanes and floods.  I've went weeks without electricity in a flooded out home.   Then rebuilt the flooded hime with my own hands.  For those of us here, we only have to survive the virus.  We will have more money than at least 9 out of 10 people.  Stay healthy and safe.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 22, 2020, 03:44:39 PM

Quote from: Roland of Gilead on March 22, 2020, 02:11:01 PM

Should retitle this Race from $4M to $2M

Heh - I just entered this group from the upper limit :-). But we do have some restricted stock that will be vesting shortly so we may possibly get back above.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 22, 2020, 03:46:39 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 22, 2020, 02:19:56 PM

- SNIP -

This isn't one we've planned for.  It's ok to be worried.   Like you stated, we are all in a much better position to ride this out.  Mustacian habits will help even more.  Cut spending to absolute necessities.   Here in Louisiana we just received shut down orders for all nonessential business.   Basically stay in your homes except when absolutely necessary.   We're all financial preppers and probably a bit on the general prepper side as well.  I've ridden out many hurricanes and floods.  I've went weeks without electricity in a flooded out home.   Then rebuilt the flooded hime with my own hands.  For those of us here, we only have to survive the virus.  We will have more money than at least 9 out of 10 people.  Stay healthy and safe.

I think the thing is that some of us are right at the edge (or were) when we were going to hang it up.  If this had happened 5 years ago, it would have been different.  The money was being saved and there were no immediate plans to touch it.  Now, a month before I was going to hang it up,............Aaargh!

It is proof that Sh*t happens.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 22, 2020, 04:23:59 PM

I think the sentiment to just stay the course and do the things history in the past has shown is really the right one, the only thing to do. In our '"Bracket" were all in if things go that bad were still going to be better off then most. But being realistic this will turn and will come back its just a question of how long will it take. Now is not the time to sell or panic as so many of the terms being used now and feelings were feelings are the same sentiments in the past during crashes. Stay the course!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 22, 2020, 06:00:54 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 22, 2020, 04:23:59 PM

I think the sentiment to just stay the course and do the things history in the past has shown is really the right one, the only thing to do. In our '"Bracket" were all in if things go that bad were still going to be better off then most. But being realistic this will turn and will come back its just a question of how long will it take. Now is not the time to sell or panic as so many of the terms being used now and feelings were feelings are the same sentiments in the past during crashes. Stay the course!

The other thing is to cut back spending of course. Naturally as there is very little discretionary stuff to spend on this will be quite easy to achieve.

If I had just retired and HAD to spend 4% of my stash I would be feeling very uncomfortable right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 22, 2020, 06:10:20 PM

Just checked our balances.  We're still in the club by $1,000!  Until tomorrow, anyway.

To think that a month ago I was thinking of FIREing right about now.  Now the stock sales are on.  It looks like I will be working throughout this and will be taking advantage of the deals out there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 22, 2020, 06:18:33 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 22, 2020, 06:00:54 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 22, 2020, 04:23:59 PM

I think the sentiment to just stay the course and do the things history in the past has shown is really the right one, the only thing to do. In our '"Bracket" were all in if things go that bad were still going to be better off then most. But being realistic this will turn and will come back its just a question of how long will it take. Now is not the time to sell or panic as so many of the terms being used now and feelings were feelings are the same sentiments in the past during crashes. Stay the course!

The other thing is to cut back spending of course. Naturally as there is very little discretionary stuff to spend on this will be quite easy to achieve.

If I had just retired and HAD to spend 4% of my stash I would be feeling very uncomfortable right now.

4% of what you have now is a more realistic SWR than when we were at the all time high.  What is interesting about the 4% rule is that it states you will have 95% success irrespective of the starting point.  For ease of numbers, at S&P 3400 say you had 3.4M and lived on 136k inflation adjusted for 30 years or now you have 2.3M and live on 92k - both people have 95% chance of success!  Guess I'd feel pretty uncomfortable spending 136k right now... but I'd be OK with 92k. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 22, 2020, 09:04:48 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 22, 2020, 06:18:33 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 22, 2020, 06:00:54 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 22, 2020, 04:23:59 PM

I think the sentiment to just stay the course and do the things history in the past has shown is really the right one, the only thing to do. In our '"Bracket" were all in if things go that bad were still going to be better off then most. But being realistic this will turn and will come back its just a question of how long will it take. Now is not the time to sell or panic as so many of the terms being used now and feelings were feelings are the same sentiments in the past during crashes. Stay the course!

The other thing is to cut back spending of course. Naturally as there is very little discretionary stuff to spend on this will be quite easy to achieve.

If I had just retired and HAD to spend 4% of my stash I would be feeling very uncomfortable right now.

4% of what you have now is a more realistic SWR than when we were at the all time high.  What is interesting about the 4% rule is that it states you will have 95% success irrespective of the starting point.  For ease of numbers, at S&P 3400 say you had 3.4M and lived on 136k inflation adjusted for 30 years or now you have 2.3M and live on 92k - both people have 95% chance of success!  Guess I'd feel pretty uncomfortable spending 136k right now... but I'd be OK with 92k.

ERN disproves this in his SWR series pretty well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 23, 2020, 12:01:14 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 22, 2020, 09:04:48 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 22, 2020, 06:18:33 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 22, 2020, 06:00:54 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 22, 2020, 04:23:59 PM

I think the sentiment to just stay the course and do the things history in the past has shown is really the right one, the only thing to do. In our '"Bracket" were all in if things go that bad were still going to be better off then most. But being realistic this will turn and will come back its just a question of how long will it take. Now is not the time to sell or panic as so many of the terms being used now and feelings were feelings are the same sentiments in the past during crashes. Stay the course!

This is why the 4% rule should not be called a rule but a guide. Something works until it doesnt and that is not to say that it wont this time yet but i know my percentage of financial "Survival" has dropped over 5%. Having said that In my calculations are 20% higher than what I actually need. But to your point I have seen a huge savings doing a lot less being home and its really not bugging me or do I feel like I have given anything up. 2 weeks I will be Fire'd 5 years so I knew at some point in my retirement this was going to happen but of course it feels worse going through it at the time BUT i have no choice nor do I want to change the strategy I Fire'd on. Hopefully the Senate and House can get there heads out of there ass and at least get this stimulus out so we can breathe a bit. Its surely is not helping the uncertainty in the markets.

The other thing is to cut back spending of course. Naturally as there is very little discretionary stuff to spend on this will be quite easy to achieve.

If I had just retired and HAD to spend 4% of my stash I would be feeling very uncomfortable right now.

4% of what you have now is a more realistic SWR than when we were at the all time high.  What is interesting about the 4% rule is that it states you will have 95% success irrespective of the starting point.  For ease of numbers, at S&P 3400 say you had 3.4M and lived on 136k inflation adjusted for 30 years or now you have 2.3M and live on 92k - both people have 95% chance of success!  Guess I'd feel pretty uncomfortable spending 136k right now... but I'd be OK with 92k.

ERN disproves this in his SWR series pretty well.

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 22, 2020, 06:18:33 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 22, 2020, 06:00:54 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 22, 2020, 04:23:59 PM

I think the sentiment to just stay the course and do the things history in the past has shown is really the right one, the only thing to do. In our '"Bracket" were all in if things go that bad were still going to be better off then most. But being realistic this will turn and will come back its just a question of how long will it take. Now is not the time to sell or panic as so many of the terms being used now and feelings were feelings are the same sentiments in the past during crashes. Stay the course!

The other thing is to cut back spending of course. Naturally as there is very little discretionary stuff to spend on this will be quite easy to achieve.

If I had just retired and HAD to spend 4% of my stash I would be feeling very uncomfortable right now.

4% of what you have now is a more realistic SWR than when we were at the all time high.  What is interesting about the 4% rule is that it states you will have 95% success irrespective of the starting point.  For ease of numbers, at S&P 3400 say you had 3.4M and lived on 136k inflation adjusted for 30 years or now you have 2.3M and live on 92k - both people have 95% chance of success!  Guess I'd feel pretty uncomfortable spending 136k right now... but I'd be OK with 92k.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 23, 2020, 12:22:05 PM

@soccerluvof4, not sure what happened to your post bud.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 23, 2020, 12:34:45 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 23, 2020, 12:22:05 PM

@soccerluvof4, not sure what happened to your post bud.

Wow....bizarre but basically its in the middle of the mess what i Said-(copy)

This is why the 4% rule should not be called a rule but a guide. Something works until it doesnt and that is not to say that it wont this time yet but i know my percentage of financial "Survival" has dropped over 5%. Having said that In my calculations , I calculated 20% higher than what I actually need. But to your point I have seen a huge savings doing a lot less being home and its really not bugging me or do I feel like I have given anything up. 2 weeks I will be Fire'd 5 years so I knew at some point in my retirement this was going to happen but of course it feels worse going through it at the time. BUT i have no choice nor do I want to change the strategy I Fire'd on. Hopefully the Senate and House can get there heads out of there ass and at least get this stimulus out so we can breathe a bit. Its surely is not helping the uncertainty in the markets.


 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 23, 2020, 02:19:10 PM

My fear is that we saw from the Depression that the wrong response can make this kind of a thing longer, deeper, and more painful than it has to be. Making the right moves in government really matter right now, and we have an administration full of acting directors with no relevant experience and a history of getting into messes if their own making.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 23, 2020, 03:05:23 PM

Right now the Government just needs to put there political agendas aside and do the things the can agree on to show the people that we can have faith in them.

Is the new good day when the S&P is down only 67pts? Disappointment again because people thought for sure the Government was going to get the Stimulus package out today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 23, 2020, 03:11:48 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 23, 2020, 03:05:23 PM

Right now the Government just needs to put there political agendas aside and do the things the can agree on to show the people that we can have faith in them.

Is the new good day when the S&P is down only 67pts? Disappointment again because people thought for sure the Government was going to get the Stimulus package out today.

The Republicans think they can manipulate the media to make the Dems look bad -- while they hand gobs of our money to the very rich and crumbs to everyone else.   They'll probably get away with it too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 23, 2020, 04:42:15 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 23, 2020, 03:11:48 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 23, 2020, 03:05:23 PM

Right now the Government just needs to put there political agendas aside and do the things the can agree on to show the people that we can have faith in them.

Is the new good day when the S&P is down only 67pts? Disappointment again because people thought for sure the Government was going to get the Stimulus package out today.

The Republicans think they can manipulate the media to make the Dems look bad -- while they hand gobs of our money to the very rich and crumbs to everyone else.   They'll probably get away with it too.

I think that's your basic answer in today's world soccerofluv, which is why I'm very concerned about anything getting done.  People (in the US today at least) don't put aside politics.  And everyone knows everything for certain... I mean for certain.... everyone knows for sure abortion is irrefutably right to allow/wrong to deny....everyone knows for sure capitalism/socialism is right/wrong, and I'm talking about folks who haven't spent decades studying the matters.   Half the country knows for certain everything every republicans propose is wrong, the other half knows everything they propose is right, and vice versa. There are no grey areas, no middle grounds, no areas of confusion.  Citizens have fallen into the same strict division the parties took years ago when there is no longer discussion/consideration of possibilities because everything is known absolutely.... to the point there is no reason to discuss anything, just grandstand.  Its even funny at points when you see someone (maybe accidentally?) proposing what generally goes against their party line.  A good example was the recent US tariffs.  Not that long ago tariffs were considered a pretty complicated thing with hard to calculate consequences which would have been discussed forever. If a democratic president had put Tariffs in place then it would have the normal every Dem saying it was the right thing to do and every Repub saying it was going to destroy the economy for certain.  But A Repub president doing it flipped it, which was pretty hilarious results-wise, as Republicans and Dems both stayed remarkably silent on the move, as it brought about what they considered a contradiction (Tariffs being good but a Repub action being by definition bad, and vice versa).

No one is gonna discuss the right thing to do.  Whatever the current administration does is by definition completely right/completely wrong because the decision was made by the administration.

So your statement "the Government just needs to put there political agendas aside and do the things they can agree on" is by definition no longer a possibility that I can imagine.  They will not put politics aside and not only will the politicians but the public will disagree with whatever the other party proposes/does precisely because thats what they propose/do.

i haven't given up on the possibility of this in the future someday.  We still see local politics work somewhat where people judge the person and actions apart from the party.  And at a local level people can usually see the difficulties in which choice is best instead of just picking a talking point. 

But on a State/Federal level we are at least many decades away from that.  It definitely seems to be getting worse every decade.  In the 60s I think most of the country mourned Kennedy being shot.  Bush's initial reactions at least to 9-11 seemed to be somewhat praised by both sides for some short period.  But its obviously hit the tipping point now.  Today we would definitely have half mourn, half rejoice if a president was taken down in the streets (and probably a significant number of people praising the bold act of taking him down) be it Obama or Trump.  Its really scary to me we've gotten to this point but I guess I'm getting used to it.  I just hope some day I'll know everything like everyone else seems to so I don;t have to think about it anymore.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 23, 2020, 05:06:36 PM

You would kind of think basic decency would trump politics in these times.

With the collapsed economy there will be people who are both hungry and sick.  History does repeat itself.

Seems like the focus should be on minimizing that issue.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 23, 2020, 05:53:38 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 23, 2020, 05:06:36 PM

You would kind of think basic decency would trump politics in these times.

Sorry, I just don't see it happening.  My prediction is 99% of republicans think the administration's next move is a good one and 99% of democrats think its horrible...no matter what that move is.... Of course it is, their determination on whether its a good move or not is completely based upon who makes the move. 

This is why I think the best thing that would happen for this country is for the next president to push for something so far against their party it may make people actually think again (the most obvious examples I can come up with is for the next Dem president to push for a constitutional amendment banning abortion or breaking medicare, or the next Republican president push for a constitutional amendment to solidify the right to abortion or the right to medicare for all.   I feel like people might start to think again?  Nah...I'm a fucking moron if I really think that'll happen

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 23, 2020, 05:58:07 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 23, 2020, 05:06:36 PM

You would kind of think basic decency would trump politics in these times.

There is little decency in Trump politics.   That's why much of the country fights him so hard.

Quote from: pecunia on March 23, 2020, 05:06:36 PM

With the collapsed economy there will be people who are both hungry and sick.  History does repeat itself.

And the Republicans usually block programs to help people who are hungry or sick.  Again, why we fight.

Quote from: pecunia on March 23, 2020, 05:06:36 PM

Seems like the focus should be on minimizing that issue.

The GOP bill will but hundreds of billions in CEO hands with no useful restrictions on it, so they'll just keep it for themselves.  Workers won't see more than 10% of that money, if that.   It's what happened last time and they're salivating at all the free money they'll be getting.   As a perfect example of GOP priorities, Sen Burr (R-NC) warned his rich buddies and donors how bad this epidemic would get but he didn't bother to warn the rest of the public in such strong terms.

The GOP bill wants to make sure that poor people get the barest possible amount of money, the middle class get a bit more -- just enough to get them to clamor for it -- and they want to funnel hundreds of billions to the already wealthy.

The Democrats want to flip that script and give more to the people and much less to the wealthy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 23, 2020, 06:00:38 PM

All we need to do is send everyone a malaria tablet and get everyone back to work.

Simple enough..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 23, 2020, 06:08:08 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 23, 2020, 05:58:07 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 23, 2020, 05:06:36 PM

You would kind of think basic decency would trump politics in these times.

There is little decency in Trump politics.   That's why much of the country fights him so hard.

Quote from: pecunia on March 23, 2020, 05:06:36 PM

With the collapsed economy there will be people who are both hungry and sick.  History does repeat itself.

And the Republicans usually block programs to help people who are hungry or sick.  Again, why we fight.

Quote from: pecunia on March 23, 2020, 05:06:36 PM

Seems like the focus should be on minimizing that issue.

The GOP bill will but hundreds of billions in CEO hands with no useful restrictions on it, so they'll just keep it for themselves.  Workers won't see more than 10% of that money, if that.   It's what happened last time and they're salivating at all the free money they'll be getting.   As a perfect example of GOP priorities, Sen Burr (R-NC) warned his rich buddies and donors how bad this epidemic would get but he didn't bother to warn the rest of the public in such strong terms.

The GOP bill wants to make sure that poor people get the barest possible amount of money, the middle class get a bit more -- just enough to get them to clamor for it -- and they want to funnel hundreds of billions to the already wealthy.

The Democrats want to flip that script and give more to the people and much less to the wealthy.

My point again.  Every Republican is Hitler and every Democrat is Stalin. (i.e. why in the world do you think we will come together for a solution?, or acknowledge if we have one?)

Next a republican will post.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 23, 2020, 06:08:53 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 23, 2020, 06:00:38 PM

All we need to do is send everyone a malaria tablet and get everyone back to work.

Simple enough..:)

OK, now this is someone just 'thinking' aloud.  Nice work.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on March 23, 2020, 06:56:21 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 23, 2020, 06:08:08 PM

... snip....
My point again.  Every Republican is Hitler and every Democrat is Stalin. (i.e. why in the world do you think we will come together for a solution?, or acknowledge if we have one?)
... snip...

Be careful what you wish for.  The last time Hitler and Stalin worked together, the world got the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact pact and the partition of Poland.

Mostly libertarian response.

I do agree on the useless polarization.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 23, 2020, 07:08:36 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on March 23, 2020, 06:56:21 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 23, 2020, 06:08:08 PM

... snip....
My point again.  Every Republican is Hitler and every Democrat is Stalin. (i.e. why in the world do you think we will come together for a solution?, or acknowledge if we have one?)
... snip...

Be careful what you wish for.  The last time Hitler and Stalin worked together, the world got the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact pact and the partition of Poland.

Mostly libertarian response.

I do agree on the useless polarization.

Sorry, I guess I didn't make it clear.  Everybody that is a Republican calls every democrat Stalin.  And everybody that is a Democrat calls every Republican HItler.  Of course this is absolutely extremist and ridiculous and is done so to prevent any discussion whatsoever.  Sorry, that was that point I was trying to make.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on March 23, 2020, 07:16:49 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 23, 2020, 07:08:36 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on March 23, 2020, 06:56:21 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 23, 2020, 06:08:08 PM

... snip....
My point again.  Every Republican is Hitler and every Democrat is Stalin. (i.e. why in the world do you think we will come together for a solution?, or acknowledge if we have one?)
... snip...

Be careful what you wish for.  The last time Hitler and Stalin worked together, the world got the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact pact and the partition of Poland.

Mostly libertarian response.

I do agree on the useless polarization.

Sorry, I guess I didn't make it clear.  Everybody that is a Republican calls every democrat Stalin.  And everybody that is a Democrat calls every Republican HItler.  Of course this is absolutely extremist and ridiculous and is done so to prevent any discussion whatsoever.  Sorry, that was that point I was trying to make.

No, you were very clear.  The polarization is such that Republican= Hitler , Democrat = Stalin, at least to the opposite side.

I'm more worried about the government WORKING, in such a way that the two conflicted parties find a solution [Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact] satisfactory to THEM, not to the people they allegedly represent, [us, Poland].

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 23, 2020, 08:23:54 PM

Y'all just proving just how divided and polarized this country is.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 23, 2020, 08:39:15 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 23, 2020, 08:23:54 PM

Y'all just proving just how divided and polarized this country is.

As if we needed more proof.  ;)


I find it really hard to believe we're so evenly split.  Almost makes a thinking person think that the system is rigged. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 23, 2020, 08:39:43 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 23, 2020, 08:23:54 PM

Y'all just proving just how divided and polarized this country is.

Read the Republican Senate Bill and the Democratic House Bill.

Decide for yourself which would help regular Americans more and the super-wealthy less.

Here's an overview and the text of the House Bill:

https://www.axios.com/nancy-pelosi-coronavirus-stimulus-proposal-d7b4a9a0-610a-4324-a07b-6bb64e1f5c81.html?fbclid=IwAR1uj28v7kWi9L9icBwDtK7H1A2ZYK1b0EtkQwJv2CAkYKQBFqycafMdF_A (https://www.axios.com/nancy-pelosi-coronavirus-stimulus-proposal-d7b4a9a0-610a-4324-a07b-6bb64e1f5c81.html?fbclid=IwAR1uj28v7kWi9L9icBwDtK7H1A2ZYK1b0EtkQwJv2CAkYKQBFqycafMdF_A)

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6817862-House-Democrats-Take-Responsibility-for-Workers.html (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6817862-House-Democrats-Take-Responsibility-for-Workers.html)

Anyone want to do the leg work to post a solid synopsis and text of the Republican Senate bill?

Then fact-based complaints from each side as to the contents of the other party's bill?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 23, 2020, 08:44:56 PM

We have been through epidemics before (1918 flu) and we have been through a depression. What is like to see is the best kinds who have studied both to come up with solutions that take into account what was done and not done previously and what worked and didn’t work. For example, we can see from the 1918 flu that cities that sheltered in place had lower death rates than those that didn’t. We also saw that siting back and doing nothing in hopes that the depression would fix itself wasn’t helpful and in fact made things worse.

I’d like to think that facts and history would be something non-partisan that we could all rally around. Unfortunately it seems that in recent years facts and reality have become politicized.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 23, 2020, 09:39:06 PM

Bateaux update:

Working 12 hour night shift 8 of of 9.  One more and I get 7 days off.  We'll be keeping 7 on and 7 off till the crisis is over according to senior managers.  We plan to shut down about 25 to 30 percent of production capacity in coming weeks.  My gut feeling, been here 28 years.  My gut feeling is we cut production by 50 percent before the end of the year.  We are a direct supplier to automotive, footwear, appliances, home building materials, insulation, car tires, medical and food applications.  A very wide product line, but they will all take a hit.  Our European operations are mostly shuttered.  Although our Swiss friends have begun production of hand sanitizer to give away.  Our TPU plastic can be formed into respirators, goggles, faceshields, potentially hundreds of medical products.  Now on to China.  Our Chinese operations are coming back on line 100 percent.  Almost like the US Post World War II, China may be in the perfect position to grab the economic prize of the 21st century.  We still have months before we can dream of ramping up domestic production.  China is ready now.  So don't worry you Amazon packages will be filled soon.  On a personal note. I now know an individual within my extended family who is highly suspected to have the disease.  I've had no physical contact with her.  She is a medical professional and I'm certain will take the very best measures to recover.  We'll know when the tests come back.  Be careful out there guys.  If I get my 7 days off I'm hitting the National Forest with my backpack and mountain bike.  I'll skip the idiots fighting over toilet paper for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 23, 2020, 09:59:08 PM

Good luck with the outdoor activities.  In my county, we got so fed up with urban refugee tourists flooding in for spring break that our county government shut everything down and told them to leave.  All hotels, motels, B&Bs, VRBO's/AirBnB's/short term rentals, boat ramps, recreational parking lots, parks, campgrounds, OHV areas... you name it, closed.  And you can be ticketed.  So taking my mountain bike or kayak out is a no-go if I have to drive there.  I could still ride from my house or walk down and paddle from not too far away.  It's a pain, but a small price to pay to keep the hooligans out.  I hope you have better options.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 23, 2020, 10:30:08 PM

Yeah, this 'no mall or shops to drive to' life is crazy.  Argh MMM (shakes fist silently toward the sky), I hope you are happy - everyone is home-bound and walking and biking so now it is so crowded on our greenbelt and bike paths that life sucks!  Now we are having to get in our car to get further away!  I liked FIRE much more before it became mandatory for everyone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 24, 2020, 03:02:06 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 23, 2020, 04:42:15 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 23, 2020, 03:11:48 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 23, 2020, 03:05:23 PM

Right now the Government just needs to put there political agendas aside and do the things the can agree on to show the people that we can have faith in them.

Is the new good day when the S&P is down only 67pts? Disappointment again because people thought for sure the Government was going to get the Stimulus package out today.

The Republicans think they can manipulate the media to make the Dems look bad -- while they hand gobs of our money to the very rich and crumbs to everyone else.   They'll probably get away with it too.

I think that's your basic answer in today's world soccerofluv, which is why I'm very concerned about anything getting done.  People (in the US today at least) don't put aside politics.  And everyone knows everything for certain... I mean for certain.... everyone knows for sure abortion is irrefutably right to allow/wrong to deny....everyone knows for sure capitalism/socialism is right/wrong, and I'm talking about folks who haven't spent decades studying the matters.   Half the country knows for certain everything every republicans propose is wrong, the other half knows everything they propose is right, and vice versa. There are no grey areas, no middle grounds, no areas of confusion.  Citizens have fallen into the same strict division the parties took years ago when there is no longer discussion/consideration of possibilities because everything is known absolutely.... to the point there is no reason to discuss anything, just grandstand.  Its even funny at points when you see someone (maybe accidentally?) proposing what generally goes against their party line.  A good example was the recent US tariffs.  Not that long ago tariffs were considered a pretty complicated thing with hard to calculate consequences which would have been discussed forever. If a democratic president had put Tariffs in place then it would have the normal every Dem saying it was the right thing to do and every Repub saying it was going to destroy the economy for certain.  But A Repub president doing it flipped it, which was pretty hilarious results-wise, as Republicans and Dems both stayed remarkably silent on the move, as it brought about what they considered a contradiction (Tariffs being good but a Repub action being by definition bad, and vice versa).

No one is gonna discuss the right thing to do.  Whatever the current administration does is by definition completely right/completely wrong because the decision was made by the administration.

So your statement "the Government just needs to put there political agendas aside and do the things they can agree on" is by definition no longer a possibility that I can imagine.  They will not put politics aside and not only will the politicians but the public will disagree with whatever the other party proposes/does precisely because thats what they propose/do.

i haven't given up on the possibility of this in the future someday.  We still see local politics work somewhat where people judge the person and actions apart from the party.  And at a local level people can usually see the difficulties in which choice is best instead of just picking a talking point. 

But on a State/Federal level we are at least many decades away from that.  It definitely seems to be getting worse every decade.  In the 60s I think most of the country mourned Kennedy being shot.  Bush's initial reactions at least to 9-11 seemed to be somewhat praised by both sides for some short period.  But its obviously hit the tipping point now.  Today we would definitely have half mourn, half rejoice if a president was taken down in the streets (and probably a significant number of people praising the bold act of taking him down) be it Obama or Trump.  Its really scary to me we've gotten to this point but I guess I'm getting used to it.  I just hope some day I'll know everything like everyone else seems to so I don;t have to think about it anymore.

Exactly, but my point was simply there are some things that both parties have said time and time again in the last 3-4 days there are things they totally agree on and a few things that need to be worked out yet. Well to show some faith , the things you agreed on get moving on and keep working on the other things.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on March 24, 2020, 09:21:24 AM

Aaaaaand....back on topic.  Updated my spreadsheet yesterday for the first time in a while.  Still over $2M but now I have to laugh at my 2 lines set up with targets..  One is "Amount until $2.8M" and the other is "Amount until $3M".  Yah, I know it'll all go back up. 

Being old and all, with a 50/50 AA, with hundreds of thousands in paper savings bonds, big drops aren't all that interesting to me.  Being kept at home, it has given me the motivation to use the TD bond value calculator.  I had used the old wizard, which they discontinued, so manually added all my bonds into the web based calculator and inventory builder.  I've been estimating the monthly gain and I was actually really close.  Now it's accurate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 24, 2020, 12:02:29 PM

I think we are teetering on the edge of no longer being in this group.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 24, 2020, 12:51:15 PM

Investments after today if it holds I'm still in. With paid for house no problem.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 24, 2020, 01:01:03 PM

We are barely on the edge of falling out of this group. The combination of stock market losses and the AUD falling against the USD has almost seen me back under $2m USD total NW.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 24, 2020, 01:14:07 PM

Well the huge rally of almost 10 percent kinda sucks for me.  I was planning to drop huge paycheck bombs into the market.  If the recovery is V shaped my $ bombs will just bounce off.   I want to penetrate deeply.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 24, 2020, 03:14:07 PM

Don't worry, you will have your opportunity soon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 24, 2020, 11:38:35 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 24, 2020, 01:14:07 PM

Well the huge rally of almost 10 percent kinda sucks for me.  I was planning to drop huge paycheck bombs into the market.  If the recovery is V shaped my $ bombs will just bounce off.   I want to penetrate deeply.

I'll admit I kind of felt the same way.  And then I felt bad about myself.  Regardless, I think 2Birds1Stone is right, and we will get a chance at deeper discounts.

The state of Washington has 123 deaths out of 2,469 confirmed cases, a rate of 4.98%.  Nationwide, we have 54,323 cases with 791 deaths so far, only 1.46%.  If all infections stop right now (they won't), and nationwide, we see the same rate as Washington, we'll have over 2,700 deaths.  The thing is, we''re still in a massive ramp-up stage, and we're having a lot of people who are having real difficulty being disciplined about social distancing.  This is going to get worse before it gets better, and unfortunately I think the markets will fall as the horror of it all begins to really hit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 25, 2020, 02:58:19 AM

What sucks is the money you lose on a day of say a 11% decline in the market vs what you gain in a 11% gain because of the math.

Seems there are some green shoots both in fighting the Virus and by next week will know more and thats what the market is looking for. Get the stimulus package actually signed and retest the bottom a bit, maybe open up some areas of the country if they stay quiet from the virus and we should/could really stabilize now with Italy turning the corner, China getting really going  and so on. A lot of ifs but its good to see the country out side of Government really rallying together we just need to all do are part and things will be fine.


***Well looks like 1am in the morning both sides agreed on a stimulus package and the President said he's sign it this morning so thats good news particularly what was said to be in it. Italy however the numbers rose but looks like people are just breaking the rules and UK is having issues as well with the people. But China again shows great improvement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 25, 2020, 03:19:08 AM

This question is most likely to be relevant to the people in this forum.

I have a healthy cash buffer as I have admitted in the past. This is nothing new - we just have a somewhat lower risk tolerance having been through two big market downturns.

Since the cash is more than FDIC limits, I am now keeping this in two banks and a money market fund at Fidelity. I'd be curious to know how others manage cash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 25, 2020, 05:02:27 AM

I was talking with my boss yesterday across the office.  (We are 90% work from home but some things take up too much VPN bandwidth so must be done in the office).  Our TSP money went into the market yesterday (of course).  I admitted that I have deviated slightly from my IPS because I should be rebalancing from bonds back to stocks, but I’m happy with what my AA decision of starting this year 70/30 which is now closer to 60/40.  (Stocks to bonds)  I will be happy when the market goes back up whenever it does,  If by waiting and being more conservative I end up having 2.5 million in the accounts in 5 years instead of 3 I’m good with that.  (Numbers are just that and not representative of any actual math calculations on my part).  I’m also just over 5 years away from RE so I have time to ride through the market potholes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 25, 2020, 07:51:11 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 25, 2020, 03:19:08 AM

This question is most likely to be relevant to the people in this forum.

I have a healthy cash buffer as I have admitted in the past. This is nothing new - we just have a somewhat lower risk tolerance having been through two big market downturns.

Since the cash is more than FDIC limits, I am now keeping this in two banks and a money market fund at Fidelity. I'd be curious to know how others manage cash.

yeah i am in the same boat but a boat I rather be in right now. Can add to markets if I want, balance portfolio but still have choice to live of cash minimum of 6 years and probably longer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 25, 2020, 07:54:43 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 25, 2020, 03:19:08 AM

This question is most likely to be relevant to the people in this forum.

I have a healthy cash buffer as I have admitted in the past. This is nothing new - we just have a somewhat lower risk tolerance having been through two big market downturns.

Since the cash is more than FDIC limits, I am now keeping this in two banks and a money market fund at Fidelity. I'd be curious to know how others manage cash.

I have about $175k in a foreign bank.  Might be a little paranoid, and it's extra paperwork (FBAR), but you never know...

I also count my money in 'stable value' funds as cash, which is a hefty amount.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 25, 2020, 07:58:29 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 24, 2020, 01:14:07 PM

Well the huge rally of almost 10 percent kinda sucks for me.  I was planning to drop huge paycheck bombs into the market.  If the recovery is V shaped my $ bombs will just bounce off.   I want to penetrate deeply.

Looks like you'll have to wait a little longer until you get to penetrate deeply (your words, not mine)!  I'm really doing all I can to hold off on overdoing this metaphor...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on March 25, 2020, 08:06:03 AM

Hit my 5% bands.  Rebalanced bonds into stocks this morning. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 25, 2020, 08:10:14 AM

I had to move my daughter from her college apartment all day yesterday.  Left the house at 8:30 & got back home way after midnight.  The Sprinter is packed. 


I get online this morning and see I missed a huge rally.  The stock I've been watching (TDG) shot up from $302 to almost $360.  Now I've got to decide what to do.  Watch it soar away....or wait for Trump or CONVID-19 to bring it back down again?  I think I'll have to bet on the latter.  "Packed churches on Easter Sunday" should do it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 25, 2020, 11:56:34 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 25, 2020, 07:58:29 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 24, 2020, 01:14:07 PM

Well the huge rally of almost 10 percent kinda sucks for me.  I was planning to drop huge paycheck bombs into the market.  If the recovery is V shaped my $ bombs will just bounce off.   I want to penetrate deeply.

Looks like you'll have to wait a little longer until you get to penetrate deeply (your words, not mine)!  I'm really doing all I can to hold off on overdoing this metaphor...

Just now saw an article about a Vegan stock index fund being created last September.

I wonder if there's a Meat  stock index fund.

Because then, if one did better than average, one would beat the …

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 25, 2020, 12:04:08 PM

That reminds me of the Redd Foxx joke "What's the difference between meat and fish?"  (You can Google the inappropriate answer)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 25, 2020, 12:42:42 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on March 25, 2020, 05:02:27 AM

I was talking with my boss yesterday across the office.  (We are 90% work from home but some things take up too much VPN bandwidth so must be done in the office).  Our TSP money went into the market yesterday (of course).  I admitted that I have deviated slightly from my IPS because I should be rebalancing from bonds back to stocks, but I’m happy with what my AA decision of starting this year 70/30 which is now closer to 60/40.  (Stocks to bonds)  I will be happy when the market goes back up whenever it does,  If by waiting and being more conservative I end up having 2.5 million in the accounts in 5 years instead of 3 I’m good with that.  (Numbers are just that and not representative of any actual math calculations on my part).  I’m also just over 5 years away from RE so I have time to ride through the market potholes.

I follow my AA for the most part and did rebalance as points as the market fell.   But part of my plan also requires a minimum number of spending years in cash and bonds - partly bc it helps me sleep and partly to avoid a death spiral.   I didn't hit my minimum spending years so my AA is intact but a bit further down and the rebalancing would have to stop.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 25, 2020, 07:29:30 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 25, 2020, 07:58:29 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 24, 2020, 01:14:07 PM

Well the huge rally of almost 10 percent kinda sucks for me.  I was planning to drop huge paycheck bombs into the market.  If the recovery is V shaped my $ bombs will just bounce off.   I want to penetrate deeply.

Looks like you'll have to wait a little longer until you get to penetrate deeply (your words, not mine)!  I'm really doing all I can to hold off on overdoing this metaphor...

I really wasn't trying to be an ass with my post.  Just trying to inject a little humor.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on March 25, 2020, 08:01:36 PM

I think the markets might be down tomorrow because the stimulus bill is being delayed by Republican senators that want to not give generous unemployment benefits to the newly million that are now unemployed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 25, 2020, 08:36:08 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on March 25, 2020, 08:01:36 PM

I think the markets might be down tomorrow because the stimulus bill is being delayed by Republican senators that want to not give generous unemployment benefits to the newly million that are now unemployed.

Not to be alarmist or hyperbolic, but I can't help but ruminate that, as the US goes through these Trillion dollar contortions with Trump at the helm, we just might be witnessing the beginning of the fall of Rome (North America and Europe) and the rise of a new world order (Russia and Far East).  I guess I'll know the outcome when I'm an old man...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 25, 2020, 08:51:09 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on March 25, 2020, 08:01:36 PM

I think the markets might be down tomorrow because the stimulus bill is being delayed by Republican senators that want to not give generous unemployment benefits to the newly million that are now unemployed.

Note the priorities -- they want to make damn sure poor people NEVER get a break. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on March 25, 2020, 09:15:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 25, 2020, 08:51:09 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on March 25, 2020, 08:01:36 PM

I think the markets might be down tomorrow because the stimulus bill is being delayed by Republican senators that want to not give generous unemployment benefits to the newly million that are now unemployed.

Note the priorities -- they want to make damn sure poor people NEVER get a break.

Yes I agree, and they were trying to give Trump a 1/2 trillion dollar slush fund to steal from and to reward his loyalists and punish those who disagreed with him. Such blatant corruption I've never seen like this before.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 04:21:25 AM

I do indeed fear the rising dragon in the east.  We've been exposed for what we are, a manufacturing peon.  We lack the ability to make a protective mask or ventilator.   Our people are incoherent and can't follow simple instructions.  Our medical system lacks the ability to go on a war footing to attack the pandemic.   Our leadership squandered our time we should have been ramping up for this battle calling it a hoax.   In our ineptitude we've decided it would be ok to sacrifice Grandma and Grandpa to keep business working.  We have been unveiled as a weak people.  The American tough image is only a facade.   When we come out of this we'd better change quickly or we'll look like Europe.  A weak shell and museum of former greatness.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on March 26, 2020, 05:58:31 AM

I think Europe could become an economic engine again if the Eurozone wasn't focused on bring the debt down to zero. This obsession with debt in the face of economic weakness is keeping economic growth low. The other problem with Europe is that the countries have a strong blood and soil history, where the culture is based on the ethnicity of the population, and doesn't lend itself toward welcoming immigrants who could both expand the population and help with economic growth. On the other hand immigration does lead to a loss of social cohesion and problems with integrating people together.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on March 26, 2020, 02:19:37 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 25, 2020, 08:10:14 AM

I had to move my daughter from her college apartment all day yesterday.  Left the house at 8:30 & got back home way after midnight.  The Sprinter is packed. 


I get online this morning and see I missed a huge rally.  The stock I've been watching (TDG) shot up from $302 to almost $360.  Now I've got to decide what to do.  Watch it soar away....or wait for Trump or CONVID-19 to bring it back down again?  I think I'll have to bet on the latter.  "Packed churches on Easter Sunday" should do it.

I learned something about myself... my risk tolerance for the financial market is far more feeble than I thought.  I've been investing steadily for 10-12 years after loosing nearly every penny in the wake of Black Tuesday in the 90's and another big chunk to bad Financial Planner more recently in 2008.   That is the baggage that a carry when analyzing my portfolio.   Sadly, I must admit that on Monday I got scared, decided I'd had enough, and sold a bunch of stock in favor of bonds.   I recouped slightly less than what I've put into the market (no gains, not even breaking even).  Now, of course, today is another rally.   It's exasperating to possibly have sold at the bottom.    I can't seem to get this right. 

I was lamenting to a friend, earlier today, and she pointed out that my tolerance for real estate risk is far higher than most people's and maybe the stock market just isn't for me.   Yes, she's right, I'm happy with the buy and hold strategy for RE, but, apparently, I'm faint hearted when my hard earned cash plummets.    I guess my RE strategy works (hey, I'm still in this club) for me, but I feel like a wussy loser for running scared when you all have such fortitude. 

BTW- 2 friends of friends have Covid-19.   I'm just waiting for it to sweep through this area.  Several young people I know have lost their jobs.  I think hard times are just beginning. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 26, 2020, 05:04:30 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on March 26, 2020, 02:19:37 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 25, 2020, 08:10:14 AM

I had to move my daughter from her college apartment all day yesterday.  Left the house at 8:30 & got back home way after midnight.  The Sprinter is packed. 


I get online this morning and see I missed a huge rally.  The stock I've been watching (TDG) shot up from $302 to almost $360.  Now I've got to decide what to do.  Watch it soar away....or wait for Trump or CONVID-19 to bring it back down again?  I think I'll have to bet on the latter.  "Packed churches on Easter Sunday" should do it.

I learned something about myself... my risk tolerance for the financial market is far more feeble than I thought.  I've been investing steadily for 10-12 years after loosing nearly every penny in the wake of Black Tuesday in the 90's and another big chunk to bad Financial Planner more recently in 2008.   That is the baggage that a carry when analyzing my portfolio.   Sadly, I must admit that on Monday I got scared, decided I'd had enough, and sold a bunch of stock in favor of bonds.   I recouped slightly less than what I've put into the market (no gains, not even breaking even).  Now, of course, today is another rally.   It's exasperating to possibly have sold at the bottom.    I can't seem to get this right. 

I was lamenting to a friend, earlier today, and she pointed out that my tolerance for real estate risk is far higher than most people's and maybe the stock market just isn't for me.   Yes, she's right, I'm happy with the buy and hold strategy for RE, but, apparently, I'm faint hearted when my hard earned cash plummets.    I guess my RE strategy works (hey, I'm still in this club) for me, but I feel like a wussy loser for running scared when you all have such fortitude. 

BTW- 2 friends of friends have Covid-19.   I'm just waiting for it to sweep through this area.  Several young people I know have lost their jobs.  I think hard times are just beginning.

Sorry to hear about your losses.  I'm down quite a bit too.  TDG rallied high enough to recover most of my losses, but I didn't get in.  It was $302 on Monday & closed at $402 today. 
At least I'm learning to pick winners.  ;)


Real estate is an entirely different investment vehicle.  It moves a lot slower and is a lot more predictable.  If you're good with it I'd concentrate more on real estate. 


I think I'm at about 50% in real estate, 40% cash, and 10% in equities at the moment.  The real estate is building lots that are for sale.  Not sure where I'll put the cash when they sell.  Probably mostly into index funds if the market is moving in the right direction again.


 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 26, 2020, 05:17:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 04:21:25 AM

I do indeed fear the rising dragon in the east.  We've been exposed for what we are, a manufacturing peon.  We lack the ability to make a protective mask or ventilator.   Our people are incoherent and can't follow simple instructions.  Our medical system lacks the ability to go on a war footing to attack the pandemic.   Our leadership squandered our time we should have been ramping up for this battle calling it a hoax.   In our ineptitude we've decided it would be ok to sacrifice Grandma and Grandpa to keep business working.  We have been unveiled as a weak people.  The American tough image is only a facade.   When we come out of this we'd better change quickly or we'll look like Europe.  A weak shell and museum of former greatness.

Right - The people of the East have done great things in this generation.  Fantastic economic growth.  Some countries have changed from making nothing for the world to making everything.  How did they do it?  They also seem to have this strange long term outlook.

The United States has shred a massive manufacturing base and squandered blood and treasure in foreign adventures.  Their people's standard of living has gone down?  How did they do it?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on March 26, 2020, 02:19:37 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 25, 2020, 08:10:14 AM

I had to move my daughter from her college apartment all day yesterday.  Left the house at 8:30 & got back home way after midnight.  The Sprinter is packed. 


I get online this morning and see I missed a huge rally.  The stock I've been watching (TDG) shot up from $302 to almost $360.  Now I've got to decide what to do.  Watch it soar away....or wait for Trump or CONVID-19 to bring it back down again?  I think I'll have to bet on the latter.  "Packed churches on Easter Sunday" should do it.

I learned something about myself... my risk tolerance for the financial market is far more feeble than I thought.  I've been investing steadily for 10-12 years after loosing nearly every penny in the wake of Black Tuesday in the 90's and another big chunk to bad Financial Planner more recently in 2008.   That is the baggage that a carry when analyzing my portfolio.   Sadly, I must admit that on Monday I got scared, decided I'd had enough, and sold a bunch of stock in favor of bonds.   I recouped slightly less than what I've put into the market (no gains, not even breaking even).  Now, of course, today is another rally.   It's exasperating to possibly have sold at the bottom.    I can't seem to get this right. 

I was lamenting to a friend, earlier today, and she pointed out that my tolerance for real estate risk is far higher than most people's and maybe the stock market just isn't for me.   Yes, she's right, I'm happy with the buy and hold strategy for RE, but, apparently, I'm faint hearted when my hard earned cash plummets.    I guess my RE strategy works (hey, I'm still in this club) for me, but I feel like a wussy loser for running scared when you all have such fortitude. 

BTW- 2 friends of friends have Covid-19.   I'm just waiting for it to sweep through this area.  Several young people I know have lost their jobs.  I think hard times are just beginning.

Sorry about your friends, hope they recover.  As far as your money, you probably still have a bunch of that.   Chances are we haven't seen the bottom and you may have a chance to reinvest.  Once you reach 2 million liquid you've won the battle.  Get to a position of solitude when you can.  We're sitting in a million cash/ bonds and 400K in pension.  The rest is market exposed but the bulk is now in capital preservation.  Of that exposed to risk about 80 percent is broad index funds.  You'll make it through.  I had to talk an aunt off the ledge a few days ago.  She's 75 percent capital preservation and 25 percent large cap.  I had to tell her to stay the course.  Let the market recovery happen.  After the funds she holds recover some, I'm going to help her get into Vanguard funds.  She paid a load and is paying 1.25 percent in fees annually.  I'd like to strangle that broker.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 07:51:34 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 26, 2020, 05:17:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 04:21:25 AM

I do indeed fear the rising dragon in the east.  We've been exposed for what we are, a manufacturing peon.  We lack the ability to make a protective mask or ventilator.   Our people are incoherent and can't follow simple instructions.  Our medical system lacks the ability to go on a war footing to attack the pandemic.   Our leadership squandered our time we should have been ramping up for this battle calling it a hoax.   In our ineptitude we've decided it would be ok to sacrifice Grandma and Grandpa to keep business working.  We have been unveiled as a weak people.  The American tough image is only a facade.   When we come out of this we'd better change quickly or we'll look like Europe.  A weak shell and museum of former greatness.

Right - The people of the East have done great things in this generation.  Fantastic economic growth.  Some countries have changed from making nothing for the world to making everything.  How did they do it?  They also seem to have this strange long term outlook.

The United States has shred a massive manufacturing base and squandered blood and treasure in foreign adventures.  Their people's standard of living has gone down?  How did they do it?

I don't want to sound like a negative Nelly.  But I work in manufacturing and it pisses me off that we've given up our industrial might.  I'm no fan of Trump but damnit.  I've had enough!  We won't see greatness again until we make our own goods again.  I really want to Make America Great Again. Trump found that longing and took advantage of it.  Now we need to do it.  Sans the racism and division brought by that campaign.  This isn't meant to be a political post. You people are smart and experienced. I know that you know exactly what the Hell I mean.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 26, 2020, 08:17:06 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 07:51:34 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 26, 2020, 05:17:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 04:21:25 AM

I do indeed fear the rising dragon in the east.  We've been exposed for what we are, a manufacturing peon.  We lack the ability to make a protective mask or ventilator.   Our people are incoherent and can't follow simple instructions.  Our medical system lacks the ability to go on a war footing to attack the pandemic.   Our leadership squandered our time we should have been ramping up for this battle calling it a hoax.   In our ineptitude we've decided it would be ok to sacrifice Grandma and Grandpa to keep business working.  We have been unveiled as a weak people.  The American tough image is only a facade.   When we come out of this we'd better change quickly or we'll look like Europe.  A weak shell and museum of former greatness.

Right - The people of the East have done great things in this generation.  Fantastic economic growth.  Some countries have changed from making nothing for the world to making everything.  How did they do it?  They also seem to have this strange long term outlook.

The United States has shred a massive manufacturing base and squandered blood and treasure in foreign adventures.  Their people's standard of living has gone down?  How did they do it?

I don't want to sound like a negative Nelly.  But I work in manufacturing and it pisses me off that we've given up our industrial might.  I'm no fan of Trump but damnit.  I've had enough!  We won't see greatness again until we make our own goods again.  I really want to Make America Great Again. Trump found that longing and took advantage of it.  Now we need to do it.  Sans the racism and division brought by that campaign.  This isn't meant to be a political post. You people are smart and experienced. I know that you know exactly what the Hell I mean.

Put tariffs on goods from countries that have worse anti-pollution and worse labor protection laws than we do.   Put tariffs on goods that were built in the US but were moved off-shore.   Double the tax rates and zero-out all tax deductions and credits for all C-level managers and board of director members who move product production off-shore -- and those penalties are for life.  Encourage our European and other allies to adopt similar tariffs and penalties.   Put a lifetime cap on pay of 150% of median family income from all sources for those c-level managers and board of director members if they break the law, with their income capped and the overage put in trust pending trial outcome.   Execute those who try to avoid the letter of the law with shell companies, etc.   

Benefits:

Our companies will be competing on a level playing field.
We'll get more manufacturing here.
Less world-wide pollution and better worker protections.   Instead of a race to the bottom we'll find we have a race to the top.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 08:22:11 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 26, 2020, 08:17:06 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 07:51:34 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 26, 2020, 05:17:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 04:21:25 AM

I do indeed fear the rising dragon in the east.  We've been exposed for what we are, a manufacturing peon.  We lack the ability to make a protective mask or ventilator.   Our people are incoherent and can't follow simple instructions.  Our medical system lacks the ability to go on a war footing to attack the pandemic.   Our leadership squandered our time we should have been ramping up for this battle calling it a hoax.   In our ineptitude we've decided it would be ok to sacrifice Grandma and Grandpa to keep business working.  We have been unveiled as a weak people.  The American tough image is only a facade.   When we come out of this we'd better change quickly or we'll look like Europe.  A weak shell and museum of former greatness.

Right - The people of the East have done great things in this generation.  Fantastic economic growth.  Some countries have changed from making nothing for the world to making everything.  How did they do it?  They also seem to have this strange long term outlook.

The United States has shred a massive manufacturing base and squandered blood and treasure in foreign adventures.  Their people's standard of living has gone down?  How did they do it?

I don't want to sound like a negative Nelly.  But I work in manufacturing and it pisses me off that we've given up our industrial might.  I'm no fan of Trump but damnit.  I've had enough!  We won't see greatness again until we make our own goods again.  I really want to Make America Great Again. Trump found that longing and took advantage of it.  Now we need to do it.  Sans the racism and division brought by that campaign.  This isn't meant to be a political post. You people are smart and experienced. I know that you know exactly what the Hell I mean.

Put tariffs on goods from countries that have worse anti-pollution and worse labor protection laws than we do.   Put tariffs on goods that were built in the US but were moved off-shore.   Double the tax rates and zero-out all tax deductions and credits for all C-level managers and board of director members who move product production off-shore -- and those penalties are for life.  Encourage our European and other allies to adopt similar tariffs and penalties.   Put a lifetime cap on pay of 150% of median family income from all sources for those c-level managers and board of director members if they break the law, with their income capped and the overage put in trust pending trial outcome.   Execute those who try to avoid the letter of the law with shell companies, etc.   

Benefits:

Our companies will be competing on a level playing field.
We'll get more manufacturing here.
Less world-wide pollution and better worker protections.   Instead of a race to the bottom we'll find we have a race to the top.

I like it!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 26, 2020, 09:31:52 PM

We should elect a president with an engineering background next.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 26, 2020, 10:23:13 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 26, 2020, 09:31:52 PM

We should elect a president with an engineering background next.

~Standing up clapping~

With an economist VP

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 26, 2020, 11:02:07 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 26, 2020, 10:23:13 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 26, 2020, 09:31:52 PM

We should elect a president with an engineering background next.

~Standing up clapping~

With an economist VP

We've had two with engineering backgrounds.

Jimmy Carter, who did a brilliant job of brokering a middle-east peace deal that's worked for 41 years.

Herbert Hoover, who did a brilliant job of translating the medieval metallurgy text, De Re Metallica, and a horrible job of dealing with the start of the Great Depression.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on March 27, 2020, 10:09:17 PM

I'm feeling better today about my move to sell.  It is what it is.   It's all still good.  Thanks for not roasting me.   It just feels way too much like gambling for my comfort.  It's only fun when you're winning. 

So my financial hit is probably yet to come.  RE rentals are likely to take a big hit too.   I think at  most of my tenants have Essential jobs, with only 2 that I'm concerned about that run a little closer to the edge every month anyway.   I'll call them next week if things look shaky.   

I'm surprised that so many of you have such a high cash/bonds to investments ratio.   Did you just let it creep up over the years in the market and then slowly move it to safety?  I'm intrigued that so much liquidity wouldn't be getting a return. 

Regarding diversification-  Did any of you consider investing in Secured Notes?  Either First Trust Deed mortgage notes or something like peer to peer lending?   MMM did a write up on Lending Club a while ago.  I tried it, but didn't like it much.  I also tried crowd funded mortgage lending.  I'm not impressed with that, either.  I'm not funding flakey people with my hard earned funds and trusting that the managers will collect.     We have 2 First TD's on places that we sold and did owner carry seller financing.  Those have performed well, after a rocky start (with a family member) got sorted out.  7% and 6.5% interest and secured by properly valued real estate. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 27, 2020, 10:58:56 PM

@JoJoP This is an incredibly hard time to find a low risk investment with any reasonable return.  Going in to this year, I disliked bonds at 2%, but disliked equities even more at a CAPE of 30+.  It was frustrating to start another year with S&P up 10% that my cash was missing out on, but it could not go on forever.  I had no idea we'd see the situation we are in, I just decided I did not need to put my past winnings at risk any longer.  Even without the pandemic, the OPEC+ failure would have dented a large part of the US stock market (with crude falling to $20 making the shale revolution moot).

For what it's worth, I was considering diversifying in to real estate at the beginning of the year, but I'm not going in that direction now.

There will be plenty of opportunities coming.  Be patient and do 'thought experiments' and see how they play out, and then commit to the ones that go well and you can stick with long term.  Volatility and moving money too much is a bad combination.  Sometimes the best action to take is to not take action. 

But ultimately, for me, I just know certain stocks are crazy cheap and the business is sound, so you move that cash off the sidelines and have to trust that you know what you are doing.  Not an easy thing to explain or bottle, or else I'd be selling books or managing other people's money.  I also don't give too specific of advice!  I know I say it way too often, but evaluate your 'willingness, need, and ability' to part with the money you invest.  The rest stays in cash-like funds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 27, 2020, 11:03:24 PM

Our plan was to be at 40% bonds at the time we reached our FI number, which happened late last year. That plan coincides both with the ERN bond tent analysis and the Living Off Your Money book. So in some ways we were lucky that I had read about that stuff and dialed back on the equities recently as we have been around 90% equities through our accumulation years. We have been higher in bonds for exactly this sort of scenario: massive dump right as we reach FIRE.

I still quit my job two weeks ago but my husband was planning on another year before this anyway. I’m really glad now to have that buffer and be still adding to our investments instead of drawing down, though I am bummed that we aren’t adding to them at the same rate as before.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 27, 2020, 11:35:15 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on March 27, 2020, 10:09:17 PM

I'm feeling better today about my move to sell.  It is what it is.   It's all still good.  Thanks for not roasting me.   It just feels way too much like gambling for my comfort.  It's only fun when you're winning. 

So my financial hit is probably yet to come.  RE rentals are likely to take a big hit too.   I think at  most of my tenants have Essential jobs, with only 2 that I'm concerned about that run a little closer to the edge every month anyway.   I'll call them next week if things look shaky.   

I'm surprised that so many of you have such a high cash/bonds to investments ratio.   Did you just let it creep up over the years in the market and then slowly move it to safety?  I'm intrigued that so much liquidity wouldn't be getting a return. 

Regarding diversification-  Did any of you consider investing in Secured Notes?  Either First Trust Deed mortgage notes or something like peer to peer lending?   MMM did a write up on Lending Club a while ago.  I tried it, but didn't like it much.  I also tried crowd funded mortgage lending.  I'm not impressed with that, either.  I'm not funding flakey people with my hard earned funds and trusting that the managers will collect.     We have 2 First TD's on places that we sold and did owner carry seller financing.  Those have performed well, after a rocky start (with a family member) got sorted out.  7% and 6.5% interest and secured by properly valued real estate.

Who are we to roast you.  I guarantee you that we all have lost money.  I'm down at least 300K.  We have to have some exposure to risk.  We're not all that young, but young enough that we cant just go to cash/bonds exclusively.   We have to have faith that it comes back.  For now I'm in a OMY pattern anyway.   So I'm throwing as much cash as I can at the market till then.  Good luck.  We all want the best for everyone here.  I can't remember once in 55 pages of anyone not getting along here.  If I feel the need to stir trouble I'll take it to the off-topic. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 27, 2020, 11:39:31 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 27, 2020, 11:03:24 PM

Our plan was to be at 40% bonds at the time we reached our FI number, which happened late last year. That plan coincides both with the ERN bond tent analysis and the Living Off Your Money book. So in some ways we were lucky that I had read about that stuff and dialed back on the equities recently as we have been around 90% equities through our accumulation years. We have been higher in bonds for exactly this sort of scenario: massive dump right as we reach FIRE.

I still quit my job two weeks ago but my husband was planning on another year before this anyway. I’m really glad now to have that buffer and be still adding to our investments instead of drawing down, though I am bummed that we aren’t adding to them at the same rate as before.

Just having one of you retired and the other working could still make life easier.  Income to cover bills and maybe invest.  Also someone at home to have a happy meal prepared in this time of lockdowns.  All our best to you.   Have fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 28, 2020, 12:12:16 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on March 27, 2020, 10:09:17 PM

I'm feeling better today about my move to sell.  It is what it is.   It's all still good.  Thanks for not roasting me.   It just feels way too much like gambling for my comfort.  It's only fun when you're winning. 

So my financial hit is probably yet to come.  RE rentals are likely to take a big hit too.   I think at  most of my tenants have Essential jobs, with only 2 that I'm concerned about that run a little closer to the edge every month anyway.   I'll call them next week if things look shaky.   

I'm surprised that so many of you have such a high cash/bonds to investments ratio.   Did you just let it creep up over the years in the market and then slowly move it to safety?  I'm intrigued that so much liquidity wouldn't be getting a return. 

Regarding diversification-  Did any of you consider investing in Secured Notes?  Either First Trust Deed mortgage notes or something like peer to peer lending?   MMM did a write up on Lending Club a while ago.  I tried it, but didn't like it much.  I also tried crowd funded mortgage lending.  I'm not impressed with that, either.  I'm not funding flakey people with my hard earned funds and trusting that the managers will collect.     We have 2 First TD's on places that we sold and did owner carry seller financing.  Those have performed well, after a rocky start (with a family member) got sorted out.  7% and 6.5% interest and secured by properly valued real estate.

I had a lot more index funds until they started crashing.  I tried staying in until realizing that this isn't a "correction", and could take years to recover from.  This was an expensive lesson. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 28, 2020, 02:38:39 AM

Is it safe to say that most of you locked in loses after the initial steep decline? Or was anyone anticipating this and got out prior to mid-February?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on March 28, 2020, 06:21:13 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 28, 2020, 02:38:39 AM

Is it safe to say that most of you locked in loses after the initial steep decline? Or was anyone anticipating this and got out prior to mid-February?

I'm not sure I'm even a member of this club, so take my answer with a grain of salt.

I've been at 90/10 or greater since 1987.  I base my AA on my long term goals, spending habits and risk tolerance, which all change at a glacial pace.  I don't change my AA due to market conditions.  This year I rebalanced from bonds to stocks on 2/26, 2/28, 3/10, 3/11, 3/12, and 3/13, moving from 93/7 to 95/5 in the process.  I also did a Roth conversion on 3/17 of about half of the amount I expect to do this year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 28, 2020, 07:34:40 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 27, 2020, 11:03:24 PM

Our plan was to be at 40% bonds at the time we reached our FI number, which happened late last year. That plan coincides both with the ERN bond tent analysis and the Living Off Your Money book. So in some ways we were lucky that I had read about that stuff and dialed back on the equities recently as we have been around 90% equities through our accumulation years. We have been higher in bonds for exactly this sort of scenario: massive dump right as we reach FIRE.

I still quit my job two weeks ago but my husband was planning on another year before this anyway. I’m really glad now to have that buffer and be still adding to our investments instead of drawing down, though I am bummed that we aren’t adding to them at the same rate as before.

Your husband is adding to them at an increased rate.   Every wage dollar he invests buys more shares than before. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on March 28, 2020, 07:36:20 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 28, 2020, 02:38:39 AM

Is it safe to say that most of you locked in loses after the initial steep decline? Or was anyone anticipating this and got out prior to mid-February?

Didn't get out. I have no talent that way.

I did some tax loss harvesting, but it wasn't locking in losses - I bought something else with the cash (which has gone up more than the original asset, but that's just luck, and may not last).

I expect most of us here have been through this sort of market with substantial investments at least once before. We accept volatility as part of the game.

AA is 80/20. I'm thinking of putting 5% more to stocks if they get cheap. It doesn't matter either way, though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 28, 2020, 07:46:48 AM

Quote from: AdrianC on March 28, 2020, 07:36:20 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 28, 2020, 02:38:39 AM

Is it safe to say that most of you locked in loses after the initial steep decline? Or was anyone anticipating this and got out prior to mid-February?

Didn't get out. I have no talent that way.

I did some tax loss harvesting, but it wasn't locking in losses - I bought something else with the cash (which has gone up more than the original asset, but that's just luck, and may not last).

I expect most of us here have been through this sort of market with substantial investments at least once before. We accept volatility as part of the game.

AA is 80/20. I'm thinking of putting 5% more to stocks if they get cheap. It doesn't matter either way, though.

I pulled out about $140,000 for a down payment and for some renovation costs on real estate investments in early January.   Had nothing to do with this epidemic, we just happened to find a house last December that we really wanted to live in.  :)

Glad that all happened before the market slumped or we would have walked away.

Other than that, we didn't do anything based on any special knowledge about what would happen to the stock market.

After all, I thought the top was in back in 2012, which only goes to show what I know.   :)

So, we'll hunker down in our social distancing isolation, spend as little as we have to, plus a bit more to help out good people we know, and wait for better times.   Or, if need be, make better times.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 28, 2020, 08:52:05 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 28, 2020, 02:38:39 AM

Is it safe to say that most of you locked in loses after the initial steep decline? Or was anyone anticipating this and got out prior to mid-February?

I held some long-term (per capital gains) funds that I sold as they were approaching $0 gains.  So, they were probably down about $1M from their peak.


I'd also purchased another index fund right before the crash.  I hadn't even had it 30 days, so couldn't even harvest the tax loss at that time.  Thinking we could be very close to the bottom, I harvested the loss & purchased a similar, but not identical, fund the week before last. 


It seems the more you have the more you can lose... 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 28, 2020, 09:18:56 AM

We didn't do anything portfolio-wise.   I expect in 6 months to 2 years we'll have recovered the lost gains. 
If it takes longer, well, we're still in a better position than we would have been had we not taken FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on March 28, 2020, 09:56:56 AM

We didn’t do anything pre COVID-19.

However, last year the market was super hot, so in December I started to get cold feet buying more stock. Nothing to do with COVID-19, just a pause on my part to see what the market did. I didn’t sell anything.

When the market dropped 30% I had $50K of cash so I threw it in. It been a loss making decision so far but it’ll be ok.

I just got my 2019 bonus and am feeling a bit cautious on investing it in stocks given all that is happening around us. We still have mortgages on our rental properties so am thinking we might pay down a bit of debt, as we will have the option to redraw the funds if we have an emergency. We already have $250k in available for redraw, but in these uncertain times adding a little more while we wait for the world to normalise feels right.

The biggest change we have made is that having lost around $600K and with no confidence that we won’t lose more before a recovery, I won’t be FIREing until this drama is behind us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 28, 2020, 09:59:11 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 27, 2020, 11:39:31 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 27, 2020, 11:03:24 PM

Our plan was to be at 40% bonds at the time we reached our FI number, which happened late last year. That plan coincides both with the ERN bond tent analysis and the Living Off Your Money book. So in some ways we were lucky that I had read about that stuff and dialed back on the equities recently as we have been around 90% equities through our accumulation years. We have been higher in bonds for exactly this sort of scenario: massive dump right as we reach FIRE.

I still quit my job two weeks ago but my husband was planning on another year before this anyway. I’m really glad now to have that buffer and be still adding to our investments instead of drawing down, though I am bummed that we aren’t adding to them at the same rate as before.

Just having one of you retired and the other working could still make life easier.  Income to cover bills and maybe invest.  Also someone at home to have a happy meal prepared in this time of lockdowns.  All our best to you.   Have fun.

With three little kids at home this isn’t going to be fun, but it will be a heck of a lot easier than if we were both trying to work from home while home schooling and entertaining a toddler and a baby. We are certainly fortunate to have one of us not have to work.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 28, 2020, 10:02:06 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 28, 2020, 07:34:40 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 27, 2020, 11:03:24 PM

Our plan was to be at 40% bonds at the time we reached our FI number, which happened late last year. That plan coincides both with the ERN bond tent analysis and the Living Off Your Money book. So in some ways we were lucky that I had read about that stuff and dialed back on the equities recently as we have been around 90% equities through our accumulation years. We have been higher in bonds for exactly this sort of scenario: massive dump right as we reach FIRE.

I still quit my job two weeks ago but my husband was planning on another year before this anyway. I’m really glad now to have that buffer and be still adding to our investments instead of drawing down, though I am bummed that we aren’t adding to them at the same rate as before.

Your husband is adding to them at an increased rate.   Every wage dollar he invests buys more shares than before. :)

True! MPP: I feel like this is the second big crash I haven’t been able to properly take advantage of. The first time I was doing 401k but was early in my career so didn’t have enough income to invest in a taxable account also. Pretty much the same situation again now. My husband should be able to max his 401k but we are stopping the taxable contributions since I am no longer bringing home the bacon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on March 28, 2020, 11:37:12 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 28, 2020, 02:38:39 AM

Is it safe to say that most of you locked in loses after the initial steep decline? Or was anyone anticipating this and got out prior to mid-February?

Why would anyone with 2-4 mill choose to lock in losses?

We rode the  market up for 10 years.  We can hang on through a bit more bumpiness. 

I did harvest some small gains in October and early January -- put one pot of money I might be relying on in the short term at 100k in a money market fund, which is 2-3 years of basic expenses for me.  I thought about moving more to cash but decided not to since we already have 5-6 years of cash in other accounts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 28, 2020, 11:45:57 AM

My question was aimed at those who admitted to selling recently.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 28, 2020, 12:18:38 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on March 28, 2020, 11:45:57 AM

My question was aimed at those who admitted to selling recently.

Been a cautious buyer lately.  Sold $600k of my 401k to buy stable value in fall of 2018 (early, but CAPE was already crazy at S&P of 2800 - earnings were overpriced).  No, I did not predict the corona virus sell off, but we were at the peak of Mt. Everest (S&P at 3400), I was fat-FI and there was no way I was going to leverage in to over-valued equities.  I'm still at a bit below 50/50 AA, although I want to be at 60/40.  Maybe we get a rally and the markets put me there, or maybe I have to continue to rebalance as the markets fall and ultimately 'over-rebalance' in the coming months - I'm not trying to time this thing and get "rich", I'm just making sure I maintain my FI (and preferably fat-FI), while also supporting the local community with increased spending.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 28, 2020, 03:35:27 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 26, 2020, 05:17:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 04:21:25 AM

I do indeed fear the rising dragon in the east.  We've been exposed for what we are, a manufacturing peon.  We lack the ability to make a protective mask or ventilator.   Our people are incoherent and can't follow simple instructions.  Our medical system lacks the ability to go on a war footing to attack the pandemic.   Our leadership squandered our time we should have been ramping up for this battle calling it a hoax.   In our ineptitude we've decided it would be ok to sacrifice Grandma and Grandpa to keep business working.  We have been unveiled as a weak people.  The American tough image is only a facade.   When we come out of this we'd better change quickly or we'll look like Europe.  A weak shell and museum of former greatness.

Right - The people of the East have done great things in this generation.  Fantastic economic growth.  Some countries have changed from making nothing for the world to making everything.  How did they do it?  They also seem to have this strange long term outlook.

The United States has shred a massive manufacturing base and squandered blood and treasure in foreign adventures.  Their people's standard of living has gone down?  How did they do it?

.

But they are, at least here in the rust belt.  Our hospitals now are getting stockpiles of hand sanitizer made by local companies.    Steelcase is retooling to make masks.  They are planning to do so in an orderly manner.  They are also talking to our local hospitals about what else they can produce.  But they want to get it right the first time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 29, 2020, 01:18:22 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on March 28, 2020, 03:35:27 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 26, 2020, 05:17:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 04:21:25 AM

I do indeed fear the rising dragon in the east.  We've been exposed for what we are, a manufacturing peon.  We lack the ability to make a protective mask or ventilator.   Our people are incoherent and can't follow simple instructions.  Our medical system lacks the ability to go on a war footing to attack the pandemic.   Our leadership squandered our time we should have been ramping up for this battle calling it a hoax.   In our ineptitude we've decided it would be ok to sacrifice Grandma and Grandpa to keep business working.  We have been unveiled as a weak people.  The American tough image is only a facade.   When we come out of this we'd better change quickly or we'll look like Europe.  A weak shell and museum of former greatness.

Right - The people of the East have done great things in this generation.  Fantastic economic growth.  Some countries have changed from making nothing for the world to making everything.  How did they do it?  They also seem to have this strange long term outlook.

The United States has shred a massive manufacturing base and squandered blood and treasure in foreign adventures.  Their people's standard of living has gone down?  How did they do it?

.

But they are, at least here in the rust belt.  Our hospitals now are getting stockpiles of hand sanitizer made by local companies.    Steelcase is retooling to make masks.  They are planning to do so in an orderly manner.  They are also talking to our local hospitals about what else they can produce.  But they want to get it right the first time.

That's good news! I hope they knock it out of the park getting it right the first time..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 29, 2020, 04:50:32 AM

I always looked at my portfolio a bit differently and was in my cash than the normal advice for various reasons. My investments though were always at 60/40. Not sure I mentioned this on this forum or another but back in November we went to buy a house and had to go in with a no contingency cash offer as it was/is a lake house and over twice as much as the paid for house we were living in. Long and short of it I sold over 600k of my stocks/index funds and used some cash I had in VMMXX to close on the house we purchased on Dec 6th and then Fortunately I did not put the $ back into the market as like others I just went with my gut that things were getting very lofty and not even hearing about the Corona-19. So with the cash I had we are now at  Excluding 529's (which is over now just barely 6 figures) 47.40 Stocks, 29.40 Bonds and 23.20 cash or cash like positions. We also have income of 3-4k a month coming in after adding to 401k and HSA but our Expenses are close to 9k a month plus I have about 100k yet to put into house I'm doing. So in my case I was more lucky then good and I dont seem to have alot of luck in my life and it doesnt feel like it because I am through this as of now still down 390k. But I have added two index funds on our near each 5% decline half cash and half selling bonds and will continue to do so and going forward plan on doing the same but if things go side ways or just doesnt feel right will live off cash and not make withdrawals as I have been since being fire'd. The  one thing that has happend through his Virus is we have lowered our expenses too without really trying by over 2k a month because of not burning gas, entertainment and so on. My gut and nothing more tells me there is going to be more pain and this is going to take 3-5 years to recover from that so that is how I am going to plan for it. Rather be to conservative and protect what I have then lose more even if it means giving up more upside But similar to @EscapeVelocity2020 's thinking. The one thing no one seems to talk about with the talking heads as they keep moving profitability quarters off based on us up and running is how the rest of the world is going to recover and have the need to be buying our products as well. This is a global problem not a USA problem which in my view makes this a longer problem. I hope I am wrong as we already have lost to many lives and peoples careers and finances have been ruined but until I see true green shoots I'm planning or thinking longer term.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 29, 2020, 06:53:03 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on March 28, 2020, 03:35:27 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 26, 2020, 05:17:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 04:21:25 AM

I do indeed fear the rising dragon in the east.  We've been exposed for what we are, a manufacturing peon.  We lack the ability to make a protective mask or ventilator.   Our people are incoherent and can't follow simple instructions.  Our medical system lacks the ability to go on a war footing to attack the pandemic.   Our leadership squandered our time we should have been ramping up for this battle calling it a hoax.   In our ineptitude we've decided it would be ok to sacrifice Grandma and Grandpa to keep business working.  We have been unveiled as a weak people.  The American tough image is only a facade.   When we come out of this we'd better change quickly or we'll look like Europe.  A weak shell and museum of former greatness.

Right - The people of the East have done great things in this generation.  Fantastic economic growth.  Some countries have changed from making nothing for the world to making everything.  How did they do it?  They also seem to have this strange long term outlook.

The United States has shred a massive manufacturing base and squandered blood and treasure in foreign adventures.  Their people's standard of living has gone down?  How did they do it?

.

But they are, at least here in the rust belt.  Our hospitals now are getting stockpiles of hand sanitizer made by local companies.    Steelcase is retooling to make masks.  They are planning to do so in an orderly manner.  They are also talking to our local hospitals about what else they can produce.  But they want to get it right the first time.

Could be a permanent market for Steelcase.  Recessions do not help sell office furniture and looks like one is on the way.  I guess there are still lots of small manufacturers in Western Michigan that can make this kind of stuff for the epidemic.

I still stand by what I said.  I drove by the GM plant in Lordstown a month or so ago and couldn't help think, "Another One Bites the Dust."

I've been squirreling away cash for a bit as this stock market expansion just seemed too good to be true.  Might be time to head North and hide away in a cabin for a few years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 29, 2020, 07:15:45 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 29, 2020, 04:50:32 AM

I always looked at my portfolio a bit differently and was in my cash than the normal advice for various reasons. My investments though were always at 60/40. Not sure I mentioned this on this forum or another but back in November we went to buy a house and had to go in with a no contingency cash offer as it was/is a lake house and over twice as much as the paid for house we were living in. Long and short of it I sold over 600k of my stocks/index funds and used some cash I had in VMMXX to close on the house we purchased on Dec 6th and then Fortunately I did not put the $ back into the market as like others I just went with my gut that things were getting very lofty and not even hearing about the Corona-19. So with the cash I had we are now at  Excluding 529's (which is over now just barely 6 figures) 47.40 Stocks, 29.40 Bonds and 23.20 cash or cash like positions. We also have income of 3-4k a month coming in after adding to 401k and HSA but our Expenses are close to 9k a month plus I have about 100k yet to put into house I'm doing. So in my case I was more lucky then good and I dont seem to have alot of luck in my life and it doesnt feel like it because I am through this as of now still down 390k. But I have added two index funds on our near each 5% decline half cash and half selling bonds and will continue to do so and going forward plan on doing the same but if things go side ways or just doesnt feel right will live off cash and not make withdrawals as I have been since being fire'd. The  one thing that has happend through his Virus is we have lowered our expenses too without really trying by over 2k a month because of not burning gas, entertainment and so on. My gut and nothing more tells me there is going to be more pain and this is going to take 3-5 years to recover from that so that is how I am going to plan for it. Rather be to conservative and protect what I have then lose more even if it means giving up more upside But similar to @EscapeVelocity2020 's thinking. The one thing no one seems to talk about with the talking heads as they keep moving profitability quarters off based on us up and running is how the rest of the world is going to recover and have the need to be buying our products as well. This is a global problem not a USA problem which in my view makes this a longer problem. I hope I am wrong as we already have lost to many lives and peoples careers and finances have been ruined but until I see true green shoots I'm planning or thinking longer term.

Take a deep breath.   Breathe slowly.   Relax.

Now, go to https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/  (https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/)and put your pre-drop and again your post drop net worth.

Notice what percentile of wealth in this country you were in and are now in.

And revisit that thought that you haven't had much luck in your life.

If that doesn't do it, go to www.globalrichlist.com (http://www.globalrichlist.com) and put your net worth in.   Or put your now lowered income in.

And now that you feel better about how very damn lucky you are, find a way to help out folks who are less lucky. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 29, 2020, 07:27:22 AM

I haven't sold anything at all but two things:

1. I have increased my post-tax monthly purchase of S&P500 index by $500

2. My plan has always been to rebalance my IRA on a yearly basis (every August). I really should be using this drop as an opportunity to rebalance my IRA. Bit I must confess that I just don't have the nerve for that unfortunately.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 29, 2020, 08:26:45 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 29, 2020, 06:53:03 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on March 28, 2020, 03:35:27 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 26, 2020, 05:17:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 26, 2020, 04:21:25 AM

I do indeed fear the rising dragon in the east.  We've been exposed for what we are, a manufacturing peon.  We lack the ability to make a protective mask or ventilator.   Our people are incoherent and can't follow simple instructions.  Our medical system lacks the ability to go on a war footing to attack the pandemic.   Our leadership squandered our time we should have been ramping up for this battle calling it a hoax.   In our ineptitude we've decided it would be ok to sacrifice Grandma and Grandpa to keep business working.  We have been unveiled as a weak people.  The American tough image is only a facade.   When we come out of this we'd better change quickly or we'll look like Europe.  A weak shell and museum of former greatness.

Right - The people of the East have done great things in this generation.  Fantastic economic growth.  Some countries have changed from making nothing for the world to making everything.  How did they do it?  They also seem to have this strange long term outlook.

The United States has shred a massive manufacturing base and squandered blood and treasure in foreign adventures.  Their people's standard of living has gone down?  How did they do it?

.

But they are, at least here in the rust belt.  Our hospitals now are getting stockpiles of hand sanitizer made by local companies.    Steelcase is retooling to make masks.  They are planning to do so in an orderly manner.  They are also talking to our local hospitals about what else they can produce.  But they want to get it right the first time.

Could be a permanent market for Steelcase.  Recessions do not help sell office furniture and looks like one is on the way.  I guess there are still lots of small manufacturers in Western Michigan that can make this kind of stuff for the epidemic.

I still stand by what I said.  I drove by the GM plant in Lordstown a month or so ago and couldn't help think, "Another One Bites the Dust."

I've been squirreling away cash for a bit as this stock market expansion just seemed too good to be true.  Might be time to head North and hide away in a cabin for a few years.

I'm slightly regretting buying another lake house last Spring.  Our mountain place just sits empty, but it's where I'd rather be most of the time.  DW & DD love the lake and the Winters in Boone can be brutal, so I figured I'd try to be happy down here.  I guess it's a good thing to have the money tied up in the lake house, otherwise the market could have just devoured a large chunk of it. 


I don't want to predict how long it will be before the economy begins to recover.  But after we have a vaccination, the ventilators, and a supply of masks & gloves, ....and counted & buried the victims, there is plenty of opportunity for growth.  We still have the far greater problem of global warming to brace for.  With a supportive government, we could make rapid strides towards greener energies and cleaner transportation.  Combating & adjusting for the rising tides, increasing heat waves, droughts & floods, and other weather extremes will require vast amounts of investment.  The more we, as a society, invest the more we will profit.  Hopefully, we've learned that we need to diversify our global supply chains.  Relying on China for everything has proven to be shortsighted.  More countries need to be given the opportunity for economic development.  Weak economies are breeding grounds for problems that threaten our strong economies.  The social unrest in South America & the Middle East needs to be solved by encouraging economic development.  Until then the refugees will continue to coming.  The poor are marching towards the money, it's as simple as that.  Investing in their countries is more productive than investing in ever larger armies to defend against them.  We need leaders that understand how to build and maintain positive agendas and relationships.  For some reason we seem have extremely wealthy players that believe and support the opposite. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on March 29, 2020, 09:25:46 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 17, 2020, 09:40:03 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on March 17, 2020, 07:25:58 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 15, 2020, 03:43:17 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 15, 2020, 03:30:27 PM

2 weeks??

Yup.  That's my opinion.  But I am an eternal optimist.  We will see.

That's not eternal optimism, that's delusion.   30 more days minimum and probably more like 90 days.   

Well, consider me deluded if you like.  But to be clear (which I probably wasn't 100% in my original post), I think that sometime in the next two weeks some non-coronavirus headline will be the main headline on the main news websites.  See quote below with emphasis added.

I do think the virus will be with us indefinitely, and I do think we'll continue to have new cases and deaths for months, and I do think it will be in the news for a long time.

I am very curious to see how long the various restrictions, accommodations, and cancellations will remain in effect.  For example, my kids are in college and high school and they're all doing the virtual learning thing this semester.  What about this summer and this fall?  I don't know.  Also, will all of them subside at various rates and at various points in time, or will we decide everything is fine all at once?

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 15, 2020, 01:11:52 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 15, 2020, 08:26:03 AM

I'm planning to finally retire this Spring so the fall of stock prices concern me.  However, the causes seem to be temporary this time.  The price of oil will inevitably return to it's higher state.  People cannot hide away from this virus forever.  It's not the Bubonic plague where a major portion of the populace will be removed.  People will only hide away with their hoarded toilet paper so long until the bullsh#t flag is raised and schools will reopen and business will return to normal.  I figure a maximum of 2 months.

My son and I were discussing this last night on our apocalypse run to the grocery store (limited outages, generally not the end of the world, found everything we wanted except the kind of bottled water we prefer, and butter).

I think it will be much shorter - probably on the order of two weeks.

We also discussed what metric we would use to decide when things have subsided.  We decided one good metric would be what the top news headline of the day is.  He also opined that people in general can't remain scared of one topic for very long, and so the media out of necessity will switch to something else (plane crash, war, mass shooting, something like that would be my guess as to what will dislodge stupidVirus from page 1).

My "on the order of 2 weeks" thought was two weeks ago.  I thought I would check to see how things turned out.

One of the main websites I watch is cnn.com.  Both today and yesterday, their format is three columns at the top.  The first two, both today and yesterday, relate to coronavirus.  The third one in the top right, both yesterday and today, have been bad weather stories (this morning it was a tornado somewhere in I believe Arkansas).  Whoops, now it's announcing the death of a TV soap opera actor.

So I agree that the top news headline is still the coronavirus, but I also think that we are seeing signs of the media reporting on other topics.  I will also admit I was wrong about the type of story that would (partially) dislodge the virus.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on March 29, 2020, 11:01:24 AM

I remember back when I could post in this thread.  Those were good times.  I'll see you all again in a few more years. 

*Goes back to the salt mines*

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 29, 2020, 02:19:24 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 29, 2020, 07:15:45 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 29, 2020, 04:50:32 AM

I always looked at my portfolio a bit differently and was in my cash than the normal advice for various reasons. My investments though were always at 60/40. Not sure I mentioned this on this forum or another but back in November we went to buy a house and had to go in with a no contingency cash offer as it was/is a lake house and over twice as much as the paid for house we were living in. Long and short of it I sold over 600k of my stocks/index funds and used some cash I had in VMMXX to close on the house we purchased on Dec 6th and then Fortunately I did not put the $ back into the market as like others I just went with my gut that things were getting very lofty and not even hearing about the Corona-19. So with the cash I had we are now at  Excluding 529's (which is over now just barely 6 figures) 47.40 Stocks, 29.40 Bonds and 23.20 cash or cash like positions. We also have income of 3-4k a month coming in after adding to 401k and HSA but our Expenses are close to 9k a month plus I have about 100k yet to put into house I'm doing. So in my case I was more lucky then good and I dont seem to have alot of luck in my life and it doesnt feel like it because I am through this as of now still down 390k. But I have added two index funds on our near each 5% decline half cash and half selling bonds and will continue to do so and going forward plan on doing the same but if things go side ways or just doesnt feel right will live off cash and not make withdrawals as I have been since being fire'd. The  one thing that has happend through his Virus is we have lowered our expenses too without really trying by over 2k a month because of not burning gas, entertainment and so on. My gut and nothing more tells me there is going to be more pain and this is going to take 3-5 years to recover from that so that is how I am going to plan for it. Rather be to conservative and protect what I have then lose more even if it means giving up more upside But similar to @EscapeVelocity2020 's thinking. The one thing no one seems to talk about with the talking heads as they keep moving profitability quarters off based on us up and running is how the rest of the world is going to recover and have the need to be buying our products as well. This is a global problem not a USA problem which in my view makes this a longer problem. I hope I am wrong as we already have lost to many lives and peoples careers and finances have been ruined but until I see true green shoots I'm planning or thinking longer term.

Take a deep breath.   Breathe slowly.   Relax.

Now, go to https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/  (https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/)and put your pre-drop and again your post drop net worth.

Notice what percentile of wealth in this country you were in and are now in.

And revisit that thought that you haven't had much luck in your life.

If that doesn't do it, go to www.globalrichlist.com (http://www.globalrichlist.com) and put your net worth in.   Or put your now lowered income in.

And now that you feel better about how very damn lucky you are, find a way to help out folks who are less lucky. :)

oh i am pretty relaxed :-) perhaps my post didnt represent that as well as I was trying to state.  , Very much one as well that has always helped thy neighbor always have been, I just don't talk about it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 29, 2020, 10:42:10 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 29, 2020, 07:15:45 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 29, 2020, 04:50:32 AM

I always looked at my portfolio a bit differently and was in my cash than the normal advice for various reasons. My investments though were always at 60/40. Not sure I mentioned this on this forum or another but back in November we went to buy a house and had to go in with a no contingency cash offer as it was/is a lake house and over twice as much as the paid for house we were living in. Long and short of it I sold over 600k of my stocks/index funds and used some cash I had in VMMXX to close on the house we purchased on Dec 6th and then Fortunately I did not put the $ back into the market as like others I just went with my gut that things were getting very lofty and not even hearing about the Corona-19. So with the cash I had we are now at  Excluding 529's (which is over now just barely 6 figures) 47.40 Stocks, 29.40 Bonds and 23.20 cash or cash like positions. We also have income of 3-4k a month coming in after adding to 401k and HSA but our Expenses are close to 9k a month plus I have about 100k yet to put into house I'm doing. So in my case I was more lucky then good and I dont seem to have alot of luck in my life and it doesnt feel like it because I am through this as of now still down 390k. But I have added two index funds on our near each 5% decline half cash and half selling bonds and will continue to do so and going forward plan on doing the same but if things go side ways or just doesnt feel right will live off cash and not make withdrawals as I have been since being fire'd. The  one thing that has happend through his Virus is we have lowered our expenses too without really trying by over 2k a month because of not burning gas, entertainment and so on. My gut and nothing more tells me there is going to be more pain and this is going to take 3-5 years to recover from that so that is how I am going to plan for it. Rather be to conservative and protect what I have then lose more even if it means giving up more upside But similar to @EscapeVelocity2020 's thinking. The one thing no one seems to talk about with the talking heads as they keep moving profitability quarters off based on us up and running is how the rest of the world is going to recover and have the need to be buying our products as well. This is a global problem not a USA problem which in my view makes this a longer problem. I hope I am wrong as we already have lost to many lives and peoples careers and finances have been ruined but until I see true green shoots I'm planning or thinking longer term.

Take a deep breath.   Breathe slowly.   Relax.

Now, go to https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/  (https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/)and put your pre-drop and again your post drop net worth.

Notice what percentile of wealth in this country you were in and are now in.

And revisit that thought that you haven't had much luck in your life.

If that doesn't do it, go to www.globalrichlist.com (http://www.globalrichlist.com) and put your net worth in.   Or put your now lowered income in.

And now that you feel better about how very damn lucky you are, find a way to help out folks who are less lucky. :)

The world has 8 million people who are wealthier.   I suck.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on March 29, 2020, 11:52:26 PM

It probably hasn't caught up with the net worth since coronavirus reared its head - there's probably only 7 million who are wealthier.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 30, 2020, 06:31:41 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on March 29, 2020, 11:01:24 AM

I remember back when I could post in this thread.  Those were good times.  I'll see you all again in a few more years. 

*Goes back to the salt mines*

It's not like you can't visit and let us know how you're doing.  We're not snobs.  Plenty of us lost fingernails holding onto the edge recently.  😁

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 30, 2020, 03:58:35 PM

The government is dumping a huge amount of money into fighting this virus.  Maybe, its time to make a problem into an opportunity.  How can this be done?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 30, 2020, 04:18:54 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 30, 2020, 03:58:35 PM

The government is dumping a huge amount of money into fighting this virus.  Maybe, its time to make a problem into an opportunity.  How can this be done?

You must have forgotten to pay your dues.  We sent that info out last week.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 31, 2020, 09:55:42 AM

I just purchased some TDG shares for $341.625   I wanted to get in when it was $302, but missed out.  Don't know if it was a good price, but will buy some more if it goes down.


Buffett bought about $200M of it between $475-425 per share, so I feel like I got it at a good price.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 31, 2020, 12:31:54 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 31, 2020, 09:55:42 AM

I just purchased some TDG shares for $341.625   I wanted to get in when it was $302, but missed out.  Don't know if it was a good price, but will buy some more if it goes down.


Buffett bought about $200M of it between $475-425 per share, so I feel like I got it at a good price.

I'm sure you'll get to add to it at a lower price. We have a long ways to go through all this.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 31, 2020, 08:12:23 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 31, 2020, 12:31:54 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 31, 2020, 09:55:42 AM

I just purchased some TDG shares for $341.625   I wanted to get in when it was $302, but missed out.  Don't know if it was a good price, but will buy some more if it goes down.


Buffett bought about $200M of it between $475-425 per share, so I feel like I got it at a good price.

I'm sure you'll get to add to it at a lower price. We have a long ways to go through all this.

We haven't found a bottom yet.  Market is bouncing on the prospect of 2 trillion being pumped into the economy.
If 47 million layoffs come we aren't even close.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 01, 2020, 03:58:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 31, 2020, 08:12:23 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 31, 2020, 12:31:54 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 31, 2020, 09:55:42 AM

I just purchased some TDG shares for $341.625   I wanted to get in when it was $302, but missed out.  Don't know if it was a good price, but will buy some more if it goes down.


Buffett bought about $200M of it between $475-425 per share, so I feel like I got it at a good price.

I'm sure you'll get to add to it at a lower price. We have a long ways to go through all this.

We haven't found a bottom yet.  Market is bouncing on the prospect of 2 trillion being pumped into the economy.
If 47 million layoffs come we aren't even close.

Agreed! good time to be patient. Times like this I would rather risk upside than be thinking we found the bottom. At the very least we will have more down days so nothing wrong with DCA in but I've personally met these levels so waiting for now to see where we go from here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 02, 2020, 03:21:25 AM

Uggh, for Wednesdays close but expected. No reason for market to go up right now imo and seemingly we need to get more of the Virus under control, people back to work and this oil thing straightened out. Till then.... really think will retest the lows if not make new ones. But thats just gut speaking. Thinking Long term!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 02, 2020, 12:51:13 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 02, 2020, 03:21:25 AM

Uggh, for Wednesdays close but expected. No reason for market to go up right now imo and seemingly we need to get more of the Virus under control, people back to work and this oil thing straightened out. Till then.... really think will retest the lows if not make new ones. But thats just gut speaking. Thinking Long term!

Those foolhearty gains may not last the day.  Only matter of time till the second leg down hits.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: CoffeeR on April 02, 2020, 01:05:44 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 02, 2020, 12:51:13 PM

Those foolhearty gains may not last the day.  Only matter of time till the second leg down hits.

All those that are predicting further pain and further lows... you are probably right. Based on my experience in 2008/2009 I predict (with a high degree of certainty) that people will be predicting lower lows and more pain when we actually do hit a bottom. Unfortunately I do not know how to make this actionable to make money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 02, 2020, 06:10:53 PM

I seem to remember from the 2008 recession that it was the third big downturn that was the eventual low.

I suspect #2 is coming up in the next 2/3 weeks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 02, 2020, 10:28:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 02, 2020, 06:10:53 PM

I seem to remember from the 2008 recession that it was the third big downturn that was the eventual low.

I suspect #2 is coming up in the next 2/3 weeks.

It could be another down leg, bounce, deeper down leg.  Still too much buying exuberance.  No blood in the streets, just cuts and bruises.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 02, 2020, 10:32:44 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 01, 2020, 03:58:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 31, 2020, 08:12:23 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 31, 2020, 12:31:54 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 31, 2020, 09:55:42 AM

I just purchased some TDG shares for $341.625   I wanted to get in when it was $302, but missed out.  Don't know if it was a good price, but will buy some more if it goes down.


Buffett bought about $200M of it between $475-425 per share, so I feel like I got it at a good price.

I'm sure you'll get to add to it at a lower price. We have a long ways to go through all this.

We haven't found a bottom yet.  Market is bouncing on the prospect of 2 trillion being pumped into the economy.
If 47 million layoffs come we aren't even close.

Agreed! good time to be patient. Times like this I would rather risk upside than be thinking we found the bottom. At the very least we will have more down days so nothing wrong with DCA in but I've personally met these levels so waiting for now to see where we go from here.

I'm filling with as much DCA as I can handle.  If we see a deep hole.  A real teeth gnashing and jumping off buildings bottom.  Well then I'm willing to throw 500k or so in.  Just roll the dice.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 03, 2020, 03:27:30 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 02, 2020, 10:32:44 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 01, 2020, 03:58:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 31, 2020, 08:12:23 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 31, 2020, 12:31:54 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 31, 2020, 09:55:42 AM

I just purchased some TDG shares for $341.625   I wanted to get in when it was $302, but missed out.  Don't know if it was a good price, but will buy some more if it goes down.


Buffett bought about $200M of it between $475-425 per share, so I feel like I got it at a good price.

I'm sure you'll get to add to it at a lower price. We have a long ways to go through all this.

We haven't found a bottom yet.  Market is bouncing on the prospect of 2 trillion being pumped into the economy.
If 47 million layoffs come we aren't even close.

Agreed! good time to be patient. Times like this I would rather risk upside than be thinking we found the bottom. At the very least we will have more down days so nothing wrong with DCA in but I've personally met these levels so waiting for now to see where we go from here.

I'm filling with as much DCA as I can handle.  If we see a deep hole.  A real teeth gnashing and jumping off buildings bottom.  Well then I'm willing to throw 500k or so in.  Just roll the dice.

Thats my plan but not quite 500k! but 2-300 for sure unless I can find some big things to sell! Everyday it just seems like this is going to take much longer to get through and to the peak which more pain on the backside getting out. So plenty of good opportunities to come.  Its funny how for years everyone said dont DCA , but I dont really see any otherway to do it in times like now if you have some extra cash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 03, 2020, 12:51:55 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 03, 2020, 03:27:30 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 02, 2020, 10:32:44 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 01, 2020, 03:58:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 31, 2020, 08:12:23 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 31, 2020, 12:31:54 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 31, 2020, 09:55:42 AM

I just purchased some TDG shares for $341.625   I wanted to get in when it was $302, but missed out.  Don't know if it was a good price, but will buy some more if it goes down.


Buffett bought about $200M of it between $475-425 per share, so I feel like I got it at a good price.

I'm sure you'll get to add to it at a lower price. We have a long ways to go through all this.

We haven't found a bottom yet.  Market is bouncing on the prospect of 2 trillion being pumped into the economy.
If 47 million layoffs come we aren't even close.

Agreed! good time to be patient. Times like this I would rather risk upside than be thinking we found the bottom. At the very least we will have more down days so nothing wrong with DCA in but I've personally met these levels so waiting for now to see where we go from here.

I'm filling with as much DCA as I can handle.  If we see a deep hole.  A real teeth gnashing and jumping off buildings bottom.  Well then I'm willing to throw 500k or so in.  Just roll the dice.

Thats my plan but not quite 500k! but 2-300 for sure unless I can find some big things to sell! Everyday it just seems like this is going to take much longer to get through and to the peak which more pain on the backside getting out. So plenty of good opportunities to come.  Its funny how for years everyone said dont DCA , but I dont really see any otherway to do it in times like now if you have some extra cash.

I've always been a DCA type because I'm lazy.  I've done a little front loading but not much.  I've never had this position of cash just before a bear crash.  Just got lucky.  I'm doing so with a million in capital preservation and another 400k in a pension. I'm willing to risk half of the safe million at the bottom.  Even if I miss the absolute bottom.  I hit the time just right at the top.  Should have sold it all in hindsight.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on April 03, 2020, 03:58:35 PM

DCAing is investing the same exact amount each week/month/year, and paying no attention to the markets. Spreading out market timed purchases over a longer period are not DCAing. If you had cash on the sidelines and suddenly you're putting that money into the market, even over a period of several months, that is not DCAing. That's market timing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 03, 2020, 05:40:03 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on April 03, 2020, 03:58:35 PM

DCAing is investing the same exact amount each week/month/year, and paying no attention to the markets. Spreading out market timed purchases over a longer period are not DCAing. If you had cash on the sidelines and suddenly you're putting that money into the market, even over a period of several months, that is not DCAing. That's market timing.

Yep.  DCA, buy and hold is what I've done since the 90s.  This however is one of those once in a decade, or possibly lifetime opportunity.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on April 04, 2020, 09:30:19 AM

Do any of you pay attention to large insider stock purchases?  With some stocks down to 1/3 or even 1/4 of recent highs I'm seeing some stocks with massive insider purchases. 


TDG had the $230M purchases by Robert Small, who is on their board and also on Berkshire Hathaway's board.  It was just announced that TDG is offering $1.1B in senior secured notes (bonds, right?).  They say it's for operating capital, but I wonder if they're actually planning to repurchase their stock at the discounted current prices.  Does that seem likely?  Small paid $425-475 per share, so I'd think they need to push the share price beyond that to justify his investment, unless he's in it for another reason?


I know COVID-19 is killing resorts, but I noticed MGM had 5 or 6 large insiders purchasing multi-million lots of their stock.  The price was recently down about 75% from recent highs.  I wonder how quickly MGM will bounce back from this?


Those are just a couple of insider purchases I noticed.  I'm mainly interested in your thoughts about TDG since I bought some. 


I hope you're all staying safe & enjoying your down time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: webguy on April 04, 2020, 12:38:46 PM

Quote from: webguy on February 11, 2020, 10:20:49 AM

Quote from: webguy on August 30, 2019, 02:23:48 AM

Quote from: webguy on January 18, 2019, 03:18:50 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 09, 2018, 01:40:34 PM

Quote from: webguy on March 08, 2018, 09:55:55 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 06, 2017, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on August 24, 2016, 07:53:54 PM

Quote from: webguy on July 01, 2016, 10:42:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 13, 2016, 01:41:00 PM

Quote from: webguy on November 12, 2015, 09:46:11 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 26, 2015, 08:35:08 PM

I'd like to join to help motivate me. Currently at $540k and hope to hit the big 1M in the next couple of years.

I made it to $748k! Keep saving everybody!!

I made it to $988k and was getting excited... and then taxes hit! Looks like it'll be another few months yet :(

I finally did it!! Crawled over the line to $1,000,330 today!  Feels pretty surreal. Never thought I'd actually be worth a million dollars. Now I guess I keep on saving towards the next million!

Currently at $1.11m.  Don't really have a goal number at this point. I love running my own business so just tryna ride it out as long as possible and "make hay while the sun shines" as they say.

Passed the half way point!  Somehow we have $1.535m. Not sure how long the next 0.465 will take but I'll report back if we get there!

It took a little longer than I’d hoped due to the market being a douchebag lately but we Just hit 2 million today! We’re officially multi-millionaires I guess! I crunched the numbers and I think our “fat fire” number is around 2.5-3M so I’ll probably keep trucking away till we hit that, then I’m not sure what I’ll do.

Can I join your thread?  We just hit 2M yesterday! And with the friendly market today we're up another 15k already!  I'm carrying over our progress from the race to 2M thread if that's OK as I like keeping track of it this way.

Felt like we got stuck around 2.3M forever but finally hit 2.5M today! Next stop 3M... and beyond!

It’s been a long time coming but finally hit 3M today! Next stop... beyond! :)

16 more pages of this thread have gone by since I last checked in but I can now report we made it to $3.5M!  I see the name of the thread has changed so I guess I have no choice but to keep going till I get past $4M now :D

I got slammed by this market like everyone else but fortunately sold a chunk of my business before everything went crazy and so am now at $4.78M after taxes. Gives me about 2.3M in cash/bonds, thinking of keeping about half of it for some private investment opportunities and then maybe slowly putting some of it into the market over the next 6 months or so!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 04, 2020, 02:00:23 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on April 03, 2020, 03:58:35 PM

DCAing is investing the same exact amount each week/month/year, and paying no attention to the markets. Spreading out market timed purchases over a longer period are not DCAing. If you had cash on the sidelines and suddenly you're putting that money into the market, even over a period of several months, that is not DCAing. That's market timing.

Thanks for the definition.  I hate acronyms.  Dollar Cost Averaging.  I thought you guys were talking about a specific stock that would do exceptionally well in the hard times soon to come.

There used to be a guy named Bob Brinker on the radio (Money Talk)  who was a big proponent of this.  Here's some more definitions from his website.

http://www.bobbrinker.com/termsDEF.asp (http://www.bobbrinker.com/termsDEF.asp)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 04, 2020, 02:07:08 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 04, 2020, 12:38:46 PM

I got slammed by this market like everyone else but fortunately sold a chunk of my business before everything went crazy and so am now at $4.78M after taxes. Gives me about 2.3M in cash/bonds, thinking of keeping about half of it for some private investment opportunities and then maybe slowly putting some of it into the market over the next 6 months or so!

Sounds like you are in a pretty good position.  Are you retired then or planning to ER?

I am seriously considering ER again once this all bottoms out.  I came out of 2009 just at lean FIRE and, without making another penny, I would still be fat-FIRE.  As long as I don't screw this recession up too badly, it looks like I'll come out of it fat-FIRE (over $100k/yr on SWR 3% or less, paid off house, cars, and 529's for the kids).  But for right now, it's been really nice to have the structure and social outlet that work has provided.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 04, 2020, 08:37:21 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 04, 2020, 02:00:23 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on April 03, 2020, 03:58:35 PM

DCAing is investing the same exact amount each week/month/year, and paying no attention to the markets. Spreading out market timed purchases over a longer period are not DCAing. If you had cash on the sidelines and suddenly you're putting that money into the market, even over a period of several months, that is not DCAing. That's market timing.

Thanks for the definition.  I hate acronyms.  Dollar Cost Averaging.  I thought you guys were talking about a specific stock that would do exceptionally well in the hard times soon to come.

There used to be a guy named Bob Brinker on the radio (Money Talk)  who was a big proponent of this.  Here's some more definitions from his website.

He was on every Sunday afternoon.  The lone voice in the wilderness of the 90s.   I'd never miss his show if at all  possible. Proponent of DCA (Dollar Cost Averaging) and low cost Vanguard funds.  Over time you'd reach the Land of Critical Mass, (Fire).

http://www.bobbrinker.com/termsDEF.asp (http://www.bobbrinker.com/termsDEF.asp)

He was on every Sunday afternoon.  The lone voice in the wilderness of the 90s.   I'd never miss his show if at all  possible. Proponent of DCA (Dollar Cost Averaging) and low cost Vanguard funds.  Over time you'd reach the Land of Critical Mass, (Fire).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: webguy on April 04, 2020, 09:18:53 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 04, 2020, 02:07:08 PM

Sounds like you are in a pretty good position.  Are you retired then or planning to ER?

I think the plan is to work another 3-4 years and then cash out of the rest of the business and be done.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 04, 2020, 09:33:03 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 04, 2020, 09:18:53 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 04, 2020, 02:07:08 PM

Sounds like you are in a pretty good position.  Are you retired then or planning to ER?

I think the plan is to work another 3-4 years and then cash out of the rest of the business and be done.

I'm very fortunate to enjoy my work and get paid well, but this time working at home has opened my eyes to the idea that I can still work as much as I'd like in some capacity (but have to be realistic that I won't get the plum overseas assignments anymore).  I think this little shake-up has re-invigorated my desire to ER and retake more control over my time.  Plus I'm over 10 years older than you, so I'll be getting to Medicare, SS, and no-penalty 401k withdrawals with plenty of assets even if I just stay in cash.  I used to stress a bit over thinking ER wouldn't be all that much better or possibly disappointing, but I think I can swing something with my employer that will be mutually beneficial and gets me more of an ER lifestyle.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 05, 2020, 03:44:33 AM

Yep...haha , there is a name from the past. If only I would of done then what i was listening too!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 07, 2020, 07:47:43 AM

This has been one hell of a crazy market lately but sure feels better on up days when we get them!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 07, 2020, 04:18:22 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 07, 2020, 07:47:43 AM

This has been one hell of a crazy market lately but sure feels better on up days when we get them!

I know right.. On days like these you can say I have "Only" lost $400k...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 08, 2020, 08:22:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 07, 2020, 04:18:22 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 07, 2020, 07:47:43 AM

This has been one hell of a crazy market lately but sure feels better on up days when we get them!

I know right.. On days like these you can say I have "Only" lost $400k...:)

Down about 220K from the absolute high.  Still up on one year 8 percent.  I'm maybe doing some tweek sellimg today of individual stocks.  Trying to homogenize the patchwork quilt of my portfolio.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on April 08, 2020, 10:53:48 AM

I'm somewhat annoyed at myself for spacing out and not taking advantage of the big drop in value to sell some of my holdings which are a bit of a hodgepodge (8% VFSAX, 66% MGV, 11% VOT, 12% VIG, 3% individual stocks) and rationalize towards a 'three fund portfolio' by moving the $'s into VTI and VEU.

It's especially tempting to do so now that I have the additional headroom of no RMDs this year (I've got an inherited IRA) so I can harvest about $20K of capital gains tax-free (I've got other investment income).

If the market tanks again I'll definitely take the opportunity, otherwise I'll move what I can at the end of the year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on April 08, 2020, 12:13:36 PM

We're still just a smidge over the $4M mark, but I haven't seen a reduction of property value, and I'm expecting that will drop us below when that comes through.

I'm expecting we will spend significantly less than planned on travel this year, but also expecting our options (autosale every month as part of my compensation) will be worth significantly less, and expecting a smaller bonus as well. I've reforecasted my "FIRE" date to be more conservative, given my husband & I have both come to terms with the fact that we want to have more options & security in our plans before we cut that cord. The pandemic has certainly made us both less risk averse.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 09, 2020, 03:30:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 08, 2020, 08:22:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 07, 2020, 04:18:22 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 07, 2020, 07:47:43 AM

This has been one hell of a crazy market lately but sure feels better on up days when we get them!

I know right.. On days like these you can say I have "Only" lost $400k...:)

Down about 220K from the absolute high.  Still up on one year 8 percent.  I'm maybe doing some tweek sellimg today of individual stocks.  Trying to homogenize the patchwork quilt of my portfolio.

I'm almost exactly 10% down from all time highs. 9. Something. Also Holding nothing currently in my 1% fun trading fund as of yesterdays two day run up.


Futures in the Green yet again nearly 500 points. S&P 40 , this is interesting to me especially if this holds throughout the day

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 09, 2020, 11:20:47 AM

I'm just glad to be back in the $2M (liquid) club.

I can't see how the fed can keep pumping $2T+ every couple of weeks (and the same amount being thrown on the national debt pile is sustainable for very long.

My next buy point is 2100 on the S&P

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on April 09, 2020, 11:28:03 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 09, 2020, 11:20:47 AM

I'm just glad to be back in the $2M (liquid) club.

I can't see how the fed can keep pumping $2T+ every couple of weeks (and the same amount being thrown on the national debt pile is sustainable for very long.

My next buy point is 2100 on the S&P

Yeah, I don't know how it plays out.  I really don't understand why the SP500 has recovered so much - I mean 2900 was kind of a fair value when the economy was stable/slowing and just before fed cut rates in 2019.   Now there are trillions sloshing around most of it will be wasted and yet there still is no end in site to this or clarity on the overall economic impact and future earnings.   

And even when we do pull out of this how do we pull back/unwind this - shit we never unwound the crap from the financial crisis.   

Low rates forever, I suppose.   Increased taxes are almost a certainty once agent orange is out.  So many people will be focused on their own economic recovery before they can spend for growth.   

IDK

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 09, 2020, 12:31:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 08, 2020, 08:22:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 07, 2020, 04:18:22 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 07, 2020, 07:47:43 AM

This has been one hell of a crazy market lately but sure feels better on up days when we get them!

I know right.. On days like these you can say I have "Only" lost $400k...:)

Down about 220K from the absolute high.  Still up on one year 8 percent.  I'm maybe doing some tweek sellimg today of individual stocks.  Trying to homogenize the patchwork quilt of my portfolio.

I did about 100k of selling today with this rally.   Not sure I'll buy back other than DCA which right now is about 50 % of paycheck.   I foresee another huge leg down after this fools rally works out.  The Fed has to run out of bullets soon or capitalism must be declared dead.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on April 09, 2020, 01:33:56 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 09, 2020, 12:31:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 08, 2020, 08:22:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 07, 2020, 04:18:22 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 07, 2020, 07:47:43 AM

This has been one hell of a crazy market lately but sure feels better on up days when we get them!

I know right.. On days like these you can say I have "Only" lost $400k...:)

Down about 220K from the absolute high.  Still up on one year 8 percent.  I'm maybe doing some tweek sellimg today of individual stocks.  Trying to homogenize the patchwork quilt of my portfolio.

I did about 100k of selling today with this rally.   Not sure I'll buy back other than DCA which right now is about 50 % of paycheck.   I foresee another huge leg down after this fools rally works out.  The Fed has to run out of bullets soon or capitalism must be declared dead.

Bottom is in!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 09, 2020, 01:57:18 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on April 09, 2020, 01:33:56 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 09, 2020, 12:31:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 08, 2020, 08:22:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 07, 2020, 04:18:22 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 07, 2020, 07:47:43 AM

This has been one hell of a crazy market lately but sure feels better on up days when we get them!

I know right.. On days like these you can say I have "Only" lost $400k...:)

Down about 220K from the absolute high.  Still up on one year 8 percent.  I'm maybe doing some tweek sellimg today of individual stocks.  Trying to homogenize the patchwork quilt of my portfolio.

I did about 100k of selling today with this rally.   Not sure I'll buy back other than DCA which right now is about 50 % of paycheck.   I foresee another huge leg down after this fools rally works out.  The Fed has to run out of bullets soon or capitalism must be declared dead.

Bottom is in!

Be nice ... Over the next several months the downside appears to be limited by the scope and size of the Fed's stimulus and the upside is likely limited by the magnitude of the necessary financial relief packages and the massive rise in the U.S. debt load that will, in time, adversely impact economic growth.


We have all become Japan now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 09, 2020, 03:32:42 PM

Where the heck is everyone?  Entertain me dammit.  You're supposed to be home.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on April 09, 2020, 04:11:57 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 29, 2020, 09:25:46 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 17, 2020, 09:40:03 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on March 17, 2020, 07:25:58 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 15, 2020, 03:43:17 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on March 15, 2020, 03:30:27 PM

2 weeks??

Yup.  That's my opinion.  But I am an eternal optimist.  We will see.

That's not eternal optimism, that's delusion.   30 more days minimum and probably more like 90 days.   

Well, consider me deluded if you like.  But to be clear (which I probably wasn't 100% in my original post), I think that sometime in the next two weeks some non-coronavirus headline will be the main headline on the main news websites.  See quote below with emphasis added.

I do think the virus will be with us indefinitely, and I do think we'll continue to have new cases and deaths for months, and I do think it will be in the news for a long time.

I am very curious to see how long the various restrictions, accommodations, and cancellations will remain in effect.  For example, my kids are in college and high school and they're all doing the virtual learning thing this semester.  What about this summer and this fall?  I don't know.  Also, will all of them subside at various rates and at various points in time, or will we decide everything is fine all at once?

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 15, 2020, 01:11:52 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 15, 2020, 08:26:03 AM

I'm planning to finally retire this Spring so the fall of stock prices concern me.  However, the causes seem to be temporary this time.  The price of oil will inevitably return to it's higher state.  People cannot hide away from this virus forever.  It's not the Bubonic plague where a major portion of the populace will be removed.  People will only hide away with their hoarded toilet paper so long until the bullsh#t flag is raised and schools will reopen and business will return to normal.  I figure a maximum of 2 months.

My son and I were discussing this last night on our apocalypse run to the grocery store (limited outages, generally not the end of the world, found everything we wanted except the kind of bottled water we prefer, and butter).

I think it will be much shorter - probably on the order of two weeks.

We also discussed what metric we would use to decide when things have subsided.  We decided one good metric would be what the top news headline of the day is.  He also opined that people in general can't remain scared of one topic for very long, and so the media out of necessity will switch to something else (plane crash, war, mass shooting, something like that would be my guess as to what will dislodge stupidVirus from page 1).

My "on the order of 2 weeks" thought was two weeks ago.  I thought I would check to see how things turned out.

One of the main websites I watch is cnn.com.  Both today and yesterday, their format is three columns at the top.  The first two, both today and yesterday, relate to coronavirus.  The third one in the top right, both yesterday and today, have been bad weather stories (this morning it was a tornado somewhere in I believe Arkansas).  Whoops, now it's announcing the death of a TV soap opera actor.

So I agree that the top news headline is still the coronavirus, but I also think that we are seeing signs of the media reporting on other topics.  I will also admit I was wrong about the type of story that would (partially) dislodge the virus.

Today, 3 1/2 weeks later, the second and third columns on cnn.com are about Biden's VP pick and a famous LGBTQ person dying of natural causes at age 95, respectively.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 09, 2020, 05:03:02 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on April 09, 2020, 04:11:57 PM

Today, 3 1/2 weeks later, the second and third columns on cnn.com are about Biden's VP pick and a famous LGBTQ person dying of natural causes at age 95, respectively.

That's not what I'm currently seeing on cnn.com - first column is 'The red tape that crippled the US's virus response' and all coronavirus below that, second column is 'White House coronavirus task force briefing' / 'Obama to mayors on coronavirus: 'The biggest mistake any us can make in these situations is to misinform'', and the third column is Biden's VP pick.  Still a whole lotta' coronavirus coverage with a smattering of other stuff.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 09, 2020, 05:20:30 PM

Well, I'm still working long days on "essential infrastructure."  It would be nice to be home.  I still hope to retire when this project is complete.

Tell me if my thinking is wrong.  You folks aren't shy so I suspect you will.  And,....that's OK.

I go to the grocery stores and see empty shelves.

Looks like the inventory of many things are depleted.

People have stocked up with basics and are running lean.

When this is over all that inventory will need to be filled.  When people start working and getting their paychecks, they will not want to go lean as they are rather tired of it.  They will be willing to take that new paycheck and spend it on what they've been lacking.  Seems like this will apply to many things.

When this is over, won't the economy rebound with a great fervor?

Despite all of the emotional character of the stock market, I like to think that it is ultimately based on the buying and selling taking place in the economy at large.  I think we are rounding the bend of the dark tunnel and the bright light is ahead.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on April 09, 2020, 05:57:57 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 21, 2020, 03:00:11 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on March 21, 2020, 02:45:03 PM

On a different note, I just watched the episode on Netflix's "Dirty Money", titled Guardian Inc.

It's about how court systems attempt to declare elderly, but competent individuals, incapacitated. In being declared incapacitated a legal guardian is appointed, and the guardian proceeds to pillage the estate of the elderly person, now called the "ward" of the state.
This seems to happen to elderly people in their late 70's to early 80's. 
Just shocking and disturbing.

Raise good kids.

Actually, the people who got the investigation rolling were children, whose parents had been "stolen" and who were threatened with "you'll never see your parents again" if they didn't stop trying to recover assets for their parents.  The state laws allow total strangers to take guardianship over elderly

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 09, 2020, 07:39:16 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 09, 2020, 05:20:30 PM

Well, I'm still working long days on "essential infrastructure."  It would be nice to be home.  I still hope to retire when this project is complete.

Tell me if my thinking is wrong.  You folks aren't shy so I suspect you will.  And,....that's OK.

I go to the grocery stores and see empty shelves.

Looks like the inventory of many things are depleted.

People have stocked up with basics and are running lean.

When this is over all that inventory will need to be filled.  When people start working and getting their paychecks, they will not want to go lean as they are rather tired of it.  They will be willing to take that new paycheck and spend it on what they've been lacking.  Seems like this will apply to many things.

When this is over, won't the economy rebound with a great fervor?

Despite all of the emotional character of the stock market, I like to think that it is ultimately based on the buying and selling taking place in the economy at large.  I think we are rounding the bend of the dark tunnel and the bright light is ahead.

Bursting at the seams here with stuff.  Not much missing in stores locally and all restaurants doing take out.  River in front of the house is full of boat traffic.  Louisiana has twice the death rate of New York.  Let the good times roll.
  Laissez les bons temps rouler

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 09, 2020, 08:25:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 09, 2020, 07:39:16 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 09, 2020, 05:20:30 PM

...
When this is over, won't the economy rebound with a great fervor?

Despite all of the emotional character of the stock market, I like to think that it is ultimately based on the buying and selling taking place in the economy at large.  I think we are rounding the bend of the dark tunnel and the bright light is ahead.

Bursting at the seams here with stuff.  Not much missing in stores locally and all restaurants doing take out.  River in front of the house is full of boat traffic.  Louisiana has twice the death rate of New York.  Let the good times roll.
  Laissez les bons temps rouler

Similar situation in Houston, we don't really feel deprived per se, things are just different.  I think this might be more of a reset on people's consumer-centric lifestyle, like maybe that wasn't the magic ingredient needed for survival.  It'll be a 'nice to have' when the malls reopen and sit down restaurants are 'the full experience' again, but  I certainly don't anticipate some 'pent up demand' splurging a la the end of WWII.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 09, 2020, 10:35:29 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 09, 2020, 07:39:16 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 09, 2020, 05:20:30 PM

Well, I'm still working long days on "essential infrastructure."  It would be nice to be home.  I still hope to retire when this project is complete.

Tell me if my thinking is wrong.  You folks aren't shy so I suspect you will.  And,....that's OK.

I go to the grocery stores and see empty shelves.

Looks like the inventory of many things are depleted.

People have stocked up with basics and are running lean.

When this is over all that inventory will need to be filled.  When people start working and getting their paychecks, they will not want to go lean as they are rather tired of it.  They will be willing to take that new paycheck and spend it on what they've been lacking.  Seems like this will apply to many things.

When this is over, won't the economy rebound with a great fervor?

Despite all of the emotional character of the stock market, I like to think that it is ultimately based on the buying and selling taking place in the economy at large.  I think we are rounding the bend of the dark tunnel and the bright light is ahead.

Bursting at the seams here with stuff.  Not much missing in stores locally and all restaurants doing take out.  River in front of the house is full of boat traffic.  Louisiana has twice the death rate of New York.  Let the good times roll.
  Laissez les bons temps rouler

Totally off topic, but that phrase always sounds off to me. I finally got around to googling it and sure enough, it is a calque (new vocabulary for me also), meaning it is a word-for-word translation that brings along with it grammar from one language that doesn’t necessarily work in the second language.

I’m glad I got that sorted out after all this time. 

Some better translations proposed by the internets:

Prenons du bon temps.
Que la fête commence.

Or

Éclatons-nous!

:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 10, 2020, 03:28:46 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 09, 2020, 08:25:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 09, 2020, 07:39:16 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 09, 2020, 05:20:30 PM

...
When this is over, won't the economy rebound with a great fervor?

Despite all of the emotional character of the stock market, I like to think that it is ultimately based on the buying and selling taking place in the economy at large.  I think we are rounding the bend of the dark tunnel and the bright light is ahead.

Bursting at the seams here with stuff.  Not much missing in stores locally and all restaurants doing take out.  River in front of the house is full of boat traffic.  Louisiana has twice the death rate of New York.  Let the good times roll.
  Laissez les bons temps rouler

Similar situation in Houston, we don't really feel deprived per se, things are just different.  I think this might be more of a reset on people's consumer-centric lifestyle, like maybe that wasn't the magic ingredient needed for survival.  It'll be a 'nice to have' when the malls reopen and sit down restaurants are 'the full experience' again, but  I certainly don't anticipate some 'pent up demand' splurging a la the end of WWII.

well put! and yea in Wisconsin other than TP which even that you can get now and disinfectants our shelves are stocked. But their is kinda an eerie  feeling out there I guess is the only way I can put it. But its good in that everyone seems to be practicing social distancing and wearing masks etc..

Biggest change I have noticed is all the places I walk or ride my bike etc.. are packed and with alot of people not from the area I live in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 10, 2020, 11:57:27 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 10, 2020, 03:28:46 AM

Biggest change I have noticed is all the places I walk or ride my bike etc.. are packed and with alot of people not from the area I live in.

DH has been saying the same thing. My conclusion is that people have more time, so they're walking greater distances. I like to think they're all neighbors. On our (long) walks, we wave and say hi to everyone, walking, bike riding, or driving. We also wear masks and tightly woven clothing, not knits.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 10, 2020, 04:31:25 PM

I'm surprised the stores are well stocked.  I've been working in Cleveland and the shelves are surprisingly empty on certain items.  I guess that is not true universally .  Of course, I've only frequented a few stores.  Maybe, the economy will not get a "bounce" when this is over because everyone's funds may be depleted.

If the bike paths and walking trails are packed, maybe this break is giving a double health bonus.  The first is to avoid the Corona Virus and the second is an opportunity to exercise.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 11, 2020, 12:04:09 PM

Here in Dubai we have had a full lock down for the past week. We are not even allowed outside of our front door without a permit,

Getting a permit to go the the supermarket alone (going with your partner is not allowed) is straight forward. We apply on-line and get SMS approval within a couple of hours. Gerneally life continues in a calm and organised way.

Our supermarkets are still fully stocked with almost everything. A few items like good quality flour has become hard to get. But overall, There is no problem to get almost whatever you could want.

We used to be able to get groceries home delivered as a same day service, but now due to the demand, you have to wait 8 days. This is a small inconvenience.

We had to buy a printer today and found out that there is a shortage of home office equipment in the country. I hadn’t thought about there being a run on such equipment, but it makes sense.

The UAE, being what it is, means we don’t have a lot of information about what is going on in the country, but there are some videos circulating showing hints of growing unrest (well behaved protests) amongst communities of Pakistan and Indians who have lost there jobs but can’t repatriate due to borders being firmly closed in their home countries.

 I imagine this has the potential to blow up into a major problem.

Dubai has a population of around 3million, and only around 300,000 are Emirati. The other 2.7 million call other countries home. There is no social security for these 2.7 million from the UAE government. No taxes = no public services..

 I can only imagine there must be at least 15% of residents here now unemployed, or around 400,000 people that now have no income and probably many want to leave Dubai. Whilst western countries are allowing citizens to return home, this is not the case for all developing countries. Indian and Pakistani nationals make up the majority of residents here, so it could quickly become complicated. I understand the UAE govt is negotiating with India/ Pakistan to find a solution.

The level of infections across the world is still quite minor so I am growing increasingly fearful that international borders will remain shut for a long time. If this is the case I worry about Dubai. If people are no longer travelling a city that primarily exists as an international hub and tourist city is no longer required.

The real frustration here is that it will be at least another month before we get visibility how/ when the world will start to reopen and what this will mean for Dubai.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on April 13, 2020, 07:24:35 AM

I rebalanced from bonds into stocks at some point when I hit my 5% band.  Watching the slow run up, I could see another rebalance back into bonds from stocks in the next month.  At 51.38% stocks before the open.  My target is 50/50.  I have added money into the market during this time.....$5k savings bonds from my federal refund and some cash into equity.  Maybe a few hundred dollars at this point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 14, 2020, 04:01:42 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on April 11, 2020, 12:04:09 PM

Here in Dubai we have had a full lock down for the past week. We are not even allowed outside of our front door without a permit,

Getting a permit to go the the supermarket alone (going with your partner is not allowed) is straight forward. We apply on-line and get SMS approval within a couple of hours. Gerneally life continues in a calm and organised way.

Our supermarkets are still fully stocked with almost everything. A few items like good quality flour has become hard to get. But overall, There is no problem to get almost whatever you could want.

We used to be able to get groceries home delivered as a same day service, but now due to the demand, you have to wait 8 days. This is a small inconvenience.

We had to buy a printer today and found out that there is a shortage of home office equipment in the country. I hadn’t thought about there being a run on such equipment, but it makes sense.

The UAE, being what it is, means we don’t have a lot of information about what is going on in the country, but there are some videos circulating showing hints of growing unrest (well behaved protests) amongst communities of Pakistan and Indians who have lost there jobs but can’t repatriate due to borders being firmly closed in their home countries.

 I imagine this has the potential to blow up into a major problem.

Dubai has a population of around 3million, and only around 300,000 are Emirati. The other 2.7 million call other countries home. There is no social security for these 2.7 million from the UAE government. No taxes = no public services..

 I can only imagine there must be at least 15% of residents here now unemployed, or around 400,000 people that now have no income and probably many want to leave Dubai. Whilst western countries are allowing citizens to return home, this is not the case for all developing countries. Indian and Pakistani nationals make up the majority of residents here, so it could quickly become complicated. I understand the UAE govt is negotiating with India/ Pakistan to find a solution.

The level of infections across the world is still quite minor so I am growing increasingly fearful that international borders will remain shut for a long time. If this is the case I worry about Dubai. If people are no longer travelling a city that primarily exists as an international hub and tourist city is no longer required.

The real frustration here is that it will be at least another month before we get visibility how/ when the world will start to reopen and what this will mean for Dubai.

Well good luck to ya! Said in our news here in my state of WI that were up to 174 Deaths but they feel are at peak and flattening curve BUT we wont be getting any freedoms back any time soon. 

Not a lot of volatility in the Market yesterday or should i say at least not 1,000 point swing so from that perspective at least it was a good day. Think for the market to climb any higher or of substance were going to need alot of good things to happen but it is what it is. Right now lets get people healthy!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 14, 2020, 04:33:30 AM

Can this market crash be the expected "correction" that we've been warned about for years or are there further problems in the market which just haven't come to fruition yet?  There is a lot of debt that might not be repaid.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 14, 2020, 12:04:55 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 14, 2020, 04:33:30 AM

Can this market crash be the expected "correction" that we've been warned about for years or are there further problems in the market which just haven't come to fruition yet?  There is a lot of debt that might not be repaid.

Doubt you can look at any of this that cleanly.  I think there are definitely affects of the shutdown not expected in the expected correction.... And heck, why wasn't the 19% drop in the S&P500 in Q4 2018 not viewed as the "expected correction" and this as a blip other than the fact we're in this one today so still scared about it?  (we were down further from the high on Christmas eve '18 than we are from the recent highs today)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on April 15, 2020, 12:41:19 AM

I'm still here! Take that, coronavirus! Earned a whopping $1,500 over the last two months lol

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 15, 2020, 04:29:57 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 14, 2020, 12:04:55 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 14, 2020, 04:33:30 AM

Can this market crash be the expected "correction" that we've been warned about for years or are there further problems in the market which just haven't come to fruition yet?  There is a lot of debt that might not be repaid.

Doubt you can look at any of this that cleanly.  I think there are definitely affects of the shutdown not expected in the expected correction.... And heck, why wasn't the 19% drop in the S&P500 in Q4 2018 not viewed as the "expected correction" and this as a blip other than the fact we're in this one today so still scared about it?  (we were down further from the high on Christmas eve '18 than we are from the recent highs today)

Quote from: pecunia on April 14, 2020, 04:33:30 AM

Can this market crash be the expected "correction" that we've been warned about for years or are there further problems in the market which just haven't come to fruition yet?  There is a lot of debt that might not be repaid.

Yeah, Bottom line in my view is nobody knows anything as this is all new and past data just doesnt matter. The one good thing though that will have long term consequences if were not careful is the Fed keeping the market up. I am for it but we just dont know enough yet to really know how long to this is going to play out so you have all these Big money managers making models on basically there best guess on a recovery. The longer we go though the harder its going to be to get back to where we were imo.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 15, 2020, 04:30:36 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on April 15, 2020, 12:41:19 AM

I'm still here! Take that, coronavirus! Earned a whopping $1,500 over the last two months lol

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12

Well done!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 15, 2020, 11:13:16 AM

@Herbert Derp $2M at 29 years old.. Outstanding!

I'm at about the same value but of course I came down from above..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 15, 2020, 05:30:23 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 15, 2020, 04:30:36 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on April 15, 2020, 12:41:19 AM

I'm still here! Take that, coronavirus! Earned a whopping $1,500 over the last two months lol

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12

Well done!

I'd thought we'd kicked his ass to the curb.  The little shit is still here.  🥰

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 15, 2020, 05:36:22 PM

Made a tiny buy today.  Finally finished funding the 2019 Roth for my wife.  Thought that April 15 would be the last day.  A financial professional friend corrected me.  We have till July 15, 2020 to fund 2019 IRAs.  I'm sure those of you elligble have already done so.  Just tossing the information out there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 16, 2020, 04:47:30 AM

I wasnt going to take any withdrawals until this virus passed and live off my cash but I put quite a bit in on the dip so on the ramp up on Tuesdays I took 2 months out of my 3% Fired withdraw I have been using. I like being cash heavy right now as at the very least i feel were stuck in a trading range for awhile. I havent been able to buy a single stock either in my 1% fun trading account as were at the top of the range in my view of 2800 on the S&P. Maybe more consolidation and better news on things I might to nibble a bit but not yet.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 17, 2020, 12:46:00 PM

Where the hell is everybody?  I come here looking for whit and wisdom.  What do I find?  Nothing.   Herbert Derp has made at least another 100K since he's posted.    This is a crazy bear market, it is still a bear right?  Hell, I'm not Herbert Derp and I'm up 250K year over year.  They should be rigging suicide prevention nets on buildings now. You're killing me with boredom.  By the way Herbert Derp...Congratulations on your amazing sucess. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: YHD on April 17, 2020, 01:11:07 PM

dont know know where you’re digging up 250k yoy...I’m down 11% from dec2019.  I thought this was the year we would have made 5m.  Stuffed that down my gullet and ate my dreams.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 17, 2020, 02:17:40 PM

Quote from: YHD on April 17, 2020, 01:11:07 PM

dont know know where you’re digging up 250k yoy...I’m down 11% from dec2019.  I thought this was the year we would have made 5m.  Stuffed that down my gullet and ate my dreams.

Maybe it's just luck, because I'm dumber than the average dog.  We're now positive for the year to date.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 17, 2020, 03:19:10 PM

I haven't updated my numbers in April so I'm probably doing much better than I think, but it feels a bit premature to say that we've seen the last of volatility.  I managed to get $100k from stable value in to my 401k S&P index fund around 2400 in March, so that feels pretty good.  More important thing right now is to try to hang on to my oil and gas job.  I have a feeling an ill wind is blowing in to Houston...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 17, 2020, 03:41:25 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 17, 2020, 03:19:10 PM

I haven't updated my numbers in April so I'm probably doing much better than I think, but it feels a bit premature to say that we've seen the last of volatility.  I managed to get $100k from stable value in to my 401k S&P index fund around 2400 in March, so that feels pretty good.  More important thing right now is to try to hang on to my oil and gas job.  I have a feeling an ill wind is blowing in to Houston...

I was thinking about you @EscapeVelocity2020 with the recent plunge in oil prices. Financially you could quit right now if you had to right?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 17, 2020, 06:27:38 PM

If stocks keep bouncing around about where they are now, i should still have plenty to retire on.  It doesn't look like hunkering down and doing the sheltering thing will be overly expensive.  Working seven tens this week so at least i should end up with a nice check.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 17, 2020, 06:51:54 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 17, 2020, 03:41:25 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 17, 2020, 03:19:10 PM

I haven't updated my numbers in April so I'm probably doing much better than I think, but it feels a bit premature to say that we've seen the last of volatility.  I managed to get $100k from stable value in to my 401k S&P index fund around 2400 in March, so that feels pretty good.  More important thing right now is to try to hang on to my oil and gas job.  I have a feeling an ill wind is blowing in to Houston...

I was thinking about you @EscapeVelocity2020 with the recent plunge in oil prices. Financially you could quit right now if you had to right?

Thanks for thinking of me @Exflyboy !  As things stand, we'd be fine financially and I'd probably get a severance.  I'm a little more nervous Houston might pull another 1980 and go bust this year - vacant homes, offices, and storefronts would be pretty depressing.  The kids are both going to be in high school, so I have no plans to move.  Maybe DW would go teach full time and I'd be a SAHD for a few years.  It's pretty hard to make long term plans when your state is volunteering to be the back to work during a pandemic guinea pig (https://www.chron.com/coronavirus/article/Abbott-expected-to-announce-plan-to-reopen-Texas-15207696.php)...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 17, 2020, 10:21:23 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 17, 2020, 06:51:54 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 17, 2020, 03:41:25 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 17, 2020, 03:19:10 PM

I haven't updated my numbers in April so I'm probably doing much better than I think, but it feels a bit premature to say that we've seen the last of volatility.  I managed to get $100k from stable value in to my 401k S&P index fund around 2400 in March, so that feels pretty good.  More important thing right now is to try to hang on to my oil and gas job.  I have a feeling an ill wind is blowing in to Houston...

I was thinking about you @EscapeVelocity2020 with the recent plunge in oil prices. Financially you could quit right now if you had to right?

Thanks for thinking of me @Exflyboy !  As things stand, we'd be fine financially and I'd probably get a severance.  I'm a little more nervous Houston might pull another 1980 and go bust this year - vacant homes, offices, and storefronts would be pretty depressing.  The kids are both going to be in high school, so I have no plans to move.  Maybe DW would go teach full time and I'd be a SAHD for a few years.  It's pretty hard to make long term plans when your state is volunteering to be the back to work during a pandemic guinea pig (https://www.chron.com/coronavirus/article/Abbott-expected-to-announce-plan-to-reopen-Texas-15207696.php)...

I'm hoping for some miracle to save oil and gas here on the Gulf Coast.  I've happily made a great living working in the chemical field.  Your low prices and lack of demand actually benefit us as most of our raw materials come from the petro industry. Unfortunately we as well are seeing low demand.  Automotive accounts for a large portion of our sales.  Also appliances and home building.  I luckily haven't missed a day of work or it's corresponding paycheck.  Our corporation is currently cash rich and claim we'll be ok going forward.  I worry about my youngest (25) a bit, he's been working in the chemical field for a year now.  His company is expanding and hopefully in good shape going forward.   We're at even money for the year now and largely in capital preservation more so we're ok.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 18, 2020, 01:37:47 PM

Quote from: YHD on April 17, 2020, 01:11:07 PM

dont know know where you’re digging up 250k yoy...I’m down 11% from dec2019.  I thought this was the year we would have made 5m.  Stuffed that down my gullet and ate my dreams.

You're that close to $5M even now, and you haven't pulled the plug? "Stuffed that down my gullet and ate my dreams" my ass! Dude, you are seriously doing something wrong. This is a FIRE forum. Why are you here and what are you waiting for?

And be careful about responding, @Bateaux, I've got my eye on you, too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on April 18, 2020, 05:01:01 PM

Quote from: Dicey on April 18, 2020, 01:37:47 PM

Quote from: YHD on April 17, 2020, 01:11:07 PM

dont know know where you’re digging up 250k yoy...I’m down 11% from dec2019.  I thought this was the year we would have made 5m.  Stuffed that down my gullet and ate my dreams.

You're that close to $5M even now, and you haven't pulled the plug? "Stuffed that down my gullet and ate my dreams" my ass! Dude, you are seriously doing something wrong. This is a FIRE forum. Why are you here and what are you waiting for?

And be careful about responding, @Bateaux, I've got my eye on you, too.

+1
Lotsa eyes, I've got four more here....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 18, 2020, 07:46:11 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on April 18, 2020, 05:01:01 PM

Quote from: Dicey on April 18, 2020, 01:37:47 PM

Quote from: YHD on April 17, 2020, 01:11:07 PM

dont know know where you’re digging up 250k yoy...I’m down 11% from dec2019.  I thought this was the year we would have made 5m.  Stuffed that down my gullet and ate my dreams.

You're that close to $5M even now, and you haven't pulled the plug? "Stuffed that down my gullet and ate my dreams" my ass! Dude, you are seriously doing something wrong. This is a FIRE forum. Why are you here and what are you waiting for?

And be careful about responding, @Bateaux, I've got my eye on you, too.

+1
Lotsa eyes, I've got four more here....

Damn "one percenters".. Just you wait till Bernie hits you with his wealth tax.. Oh wait..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 18, 2020, 07:59:04 PM

I was licking my cowardly wounds for the past 2 weeks, plus helping one of my kids buy a house.   Housing is an essential business where we are, and the housing market is amazingly brisk.  As brisk as ever, really.   All of our renters but one are still employed and doing ok, so the tidal wave hasn't hit us yet.  We are so incredibly blessed, I don't think there's much that could derail us.  I did the math and realized that my 25% stock market loss will have absolutely no effect on my life at all.   Yow!  That's really amazing, since that's more than I've had in the bank for most of my life.   For that, I'm grateful. 


We already spend a lot of time outside. So that's our normal.   The public parks are closed, but there's plenty of scenic places to go for a walk, and I spotted an owls nest at the end of my block.  I'm grabbing my binoculars and heading out to watch them every evening at sunset.  My garden is... the same... awesome!  Life is good and we're washing our hands. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 18, 2020, 08:53:36 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 04, 2020, 09:33:03 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 04, 2020, 09:18:53 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 04, 2020, 02:07:08 PM

Sounds like you are in a pretty good position.  Are you retired then or planning to ER?

I think the plan is to work another 3-4 years and then cash out of the rest of the business and be done.

I'm very fortunate to enjoy my work and get paid well, but this time working at home has opened my eyes to the idea that I can still work as much as I'd like in some capacity (but have to be realistic that I won't get the plum overseas assignments anymore).  I think this little shake-up has re-invigorated my desire to ER and retake more control over my time.  Plus I'm over 10 years older than you, so I'll be getting to Medicare, SS, and no-penalty 401k withdrawals with plenty of assets even if I just stay in cash.  I used to stress a bit over thinking ER wouldn't be all that much better or possibly disappointing, but I think I can swing something with my employer that will be mutually beneficial and gets me more of an ER lifestyle.

It's a bit of a wake up call to realize this:  What the heck is all that money good for if you die of Covid 19 before you get to enjoy it?  Fire already, people!  Or at least ramp it back to where it's part of your life, not your whole life. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 18, 2020, 11:55:18 PM

Quote from: Dicey on April 18, 2020, 01:37:47 PM

Quote from: YHD on April 17, 2020, 01:11:07 PM

dont know know where you’re digging up 250k yoy...I’m down 11% from dec2019.  I thought this was the year we would have made 5m.  Stuffed that down my gullet and ate my dreams.

You're that close to $5M even now, and you haven't pulled the plug? "Stuffed that down my gullet and ate my dreams" my ass! Dude, you are seriously doing something wrong. This is a FIRE forum. Why are you here and what are you waiting for?

And be careful about responding, @Bateaux, I've got my eye on you, too.

Dicey I love you.  You're right, it's getting to be that time.  I do want to ride this out and see what's on the backside.  My wife is chawing at the bitt to quit work now.  I'm on a string of 7 nights right now.  I get off Wednesday morning.  May be headed to the Florida house for my week off.  Florida isn't welcoming Louisiana people right now.  I'll be carry my mortgage bill along as proof I'm a Florida tax payer.  The end is in sight I swear.  But yes, keep giving me those not so suttle hints.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 19, 2020, 12:12:59 AM

Hahaha, I just got finished typing "Love you" to Slicey over in my journal and now you've dropped a love bomb on me. Squee!!! Aren't imaginary friends the best?

Hmmm, I'd be a bit worried about you packing off to Florida just now. They shut down far too late to be likely to have a good CV outcome. Will they see significant improvement in a week's time? I highly doubt it. More likely that it will be exponentially worse there in seven days. For you to have worked so hard and so long (nudge) and be struck down in this pandemic would be unbelievably sad.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 19, 2020, 12:27:19 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on April 18, 2020, 08:53:36 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 04, 2020, 09:33:03 PM

Quote from: webguy on April 04, 2020, 09:18:53 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 04, 2020, 02:07:08 PM

Sounds like you are in a pretty good position.  Are you retired then or planning to ER?

I think the plan is to work another 3-4 years and then cash out of the rest of the business and be done.

I'm very fortunate to enjoy my work and get paid well, but this time working at home has opened my eyes to the idea that I can still work as much as I'd like in some capacity (but have to be realistic that I won't get the plum overseas assignments anymore).  I think this little shake-up has re-invigorated my desire to ER and retake more control over my time.  Plus I'm over 10 years older than you, so I'll be getting to Medicare, SS, and no-penalty 401k withdrawals with plenty of assets even if I just stay in cash.  I used to stress a bit over thinking ER wouldn't be all that much better or possibly disappointing, but I think I can swing something with my employer that will be mutually beneficial and gets me more of an ER lifestyle.

It's a bit of a wake up call to realize this:  What the heck is all that money good for if you die of Covid 19 before you get to enjoy it?  Fire already, people!  Or at least ramp it back to where it's part of your life, not your whole life.

You're right JoJo.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 19, 2020, 12:35:29 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 19, 2020, 12:12:59 AM

Hahaha, I just got finished typing "Love you" to Slicey over in my journal and now you've dropped a love bomb on me. Squee!!! Aren't imaginary friends the best?

Hmmm, I'd be a bit worried about you packing off to Florida just now. They shut down far too late to be likely to have a good CV outcome. Will they see significant improvement in a week's time? I highly doubt it. More l8kely that it will be exponentially worse there in seven days. For you to have worked so hard and so long (nudge) and be struck down in this pandemic would be unbelievably sad.

We may never meet face to face but your love and kindness towards others beams from your words.  I'd be proud to call you a friend in any context.  If we do travel to Florida we won't be leaving the house.  It's been unoccupied since January when we took a cruise out of Tampa.  We have a pantry full of food there and an ample toilet paper supply.  I can clean the pool, work in the yard and tidy up some inside projects.  We're on a huge lot and it's a huge house.   We'll be far greater distanced from others than here in Louisiana.  We'll see what next week brings.  It's a 600 mile drive each way.   But my wife may need the break.  Now go to bed.  I'm bullshiting on the clock right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on April 19, 2020, 09:29:00 AM

Bateaux, during your break -- maybe on that long drive -- please have a good discussion with your wife about her dreams/desires.  I understand not wanting to make life-altering decisions while under a huge amount of stress, but I wonder why your response to her wish to quit now was not "go right ahead!"  You guys have plenty of money.  More money, most likely, than time.  You don't have to retire in lockstep. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 19, 2020, 01:27:08 PM

Quote from: lhamo on April 19, 2020, 09:29:00 AM

Bateaux, during your break -- maybe on that long drive -- please have a good discussion with your wife about her dreams/desires.  I understand not wanting to make life-altering decisions while under a huge amount of stress, but I wonder why your response to her wish to quit now was not "go right ahead!"  You guys have plenty of money.  More money, most likely, than time.  You don't have to retire in lockstep.

We approached the topic last night on the phone.  Yes she can quit now if she wants.  But our current agreement is what the heck is there to do besides work right now anyway.  I'm currently working on a 7 on and 7 off schedule.  Having every other week off is great.   We could be in vacation mode nearly half the time.  It's progressing and yes it is ultimately her decision.  We are in a great financial position and it's most likely only going to improve long-term.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 19, 2020, 02:06:25 PM

Ah, I love all you folks!  Thank God someone said it first.

Good luck with that talk, Bateaux.   Freedom to choose is amazing.  I'm sure your wife will be comfortable with what ever path she takes, knowing she has the freedom to change her mind in any direction.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 19, 2020, 03:37:18 PM

I appreciate seeing the love-fest on this forum. I feel grateful for the wonderful people i have “met” and met on video chat and in real life due to this forum. It adds a lot to my life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 19, 2020, 03:57:07 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2020, 12:35:29 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 19, 2020, 12:12:59 AM

Hahaha, I just got finished typing "Love you" to Slicey over in my journal and now you've dropped a love bomb on me. Squee!!! Aren't imaginary friends the best?

Hmmm, I'd be a bit worried about you packing off to Florida just now. They shut down far too late to be likely to have a good CV outcome. Will they see significant improvement in a week's time? I highly doubt it. More l8kely that it will be exponentially worse there in seven days. For you to have worked so hard and so long (nudge) and be struck down in this pandemic would be unbelievably sad.

We may never meet face to face but your love and kindness towards others beams from your words.  I'd be proud to call you a friend in any context.  If we do travel to Florida we won't be leaving the house.  It's been unoccupied since January when we took a cruise out of Tampa.  We have a pantry full of food there and an ample toilet paper supply.  I can clean the pool, work in the yard and tidy up some inside projects.  We're on a huge lot and it's a huge house.   We'll be far greater distanced from others than here in Louisiana.  We'll see what next week brings.  It's a 600 mile drive each way.   But my wife may need the break.  Now go to bed.  I'm bullshiting on the clock right now.

Awww, thanks for the love, @Bateaux! Okay, I'm thinking...can you make it all the way in one day? What about food, gas and pit stops? What's your plan if things aren't open along the way? Could you bring enough fresh food with you that you would be able to stay out of FL grocery stores for at least two weeks? What if you need medical care? Will your health insurance cover you if you're out of state? Would you even know of a doctor to go to in FL if something happened? Do you have enough medical supplies (Tylenol, cough & cold remedies, disinfectant, masks, any normal meds, etc.) to take care of yourselves/treat any symptoms that might appear? If you have all those logistics figured out, then I think it would be okay to consider going to FL, but I'd prefer (haha, listen to me) you go there and stay there until this thing blows over, not moving back and forth. How much vacay time do you have accrued?

One last thing - toss a box of gloves in the car and never touch a gas pump without putting a fresh pair on. Toss them before you get back in the car. Wouldn't hurt to keep your mask handy either. At least it will minimize gas fumes, for the win. And if you have an electric vehicle, same goes for the charging stations.

And +1 to all the sages encouraging you to use this time to heart-to-heart with your wife.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 19, 2020, 09:16:28 PM

Quote from: Dicey on April 19, 2020, 03:57:07 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2020, 12:35:29 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 19, 2020, 12:12:59 AM

Hahaha, I just got finished typing "Love you" to Slicey over in my journal and now you've dropped a love bomb on me. Squee!!! Aren't imaginary friends the best?

Hmmm, I'd be a bit worried about you packing off to Florida just now. They shut down far too late to be likely to have a good CV outcome. Will they see significant improvement in a week's time? I highly doubt it. More l8kely that it will be exponentially worse there in seven days. For you to have worked so hard and so long (nudge) and be struck down in this pandemic would be unbelievably sad.

We may never meet face to face but your love and kindness towards others beams from your words.  I'd be proud to call you a friend in any context.  If we do travel to Florida we won't be leaving the house.  It's been unoccupied since January when we took a cruise out of Tampa.  We have a pantry full of food there and an ample toilet paper supply.  I can clean the pool, work in the yard and tidy up some inside projects.  We're on a huge lot and it's a huge house.   We'll be far greater distanced from others than here in Louisiana.  We'll see what next week brings.  It's a 600 mile drive each way.   But my wife may need the break.  Now go to bed.  I'm bullshiting on the clock right now.

Awww, thanks for the love, @Bateaux! Okay, I'm thinking...can you make it all the way in one day? What about food, gas and pit stops? What's your plan if things aren't open along the way? Could you bring enough fresh food with you that you would be able to stay out of FL grocery stores for at least two weeks? What if you need medical care? Will your health insurance cover you if you're out of state? Would you even know of a doctor to go to in FL if something happened? Do you have enough medical supplies (Tylenol, cough & cold remedies, disinfectant, masks, any normal meds, etc.) to take care of yourselves/treat any symptoms that might appear? If you have all those logistics figured out, then I think it would be okay to consider going to FL, but I'd prefer (haha, listen to me) you go there and stay there until this thing blows over, not moving back and forth. How much vacay time do you have accrued?

One last thing - toss a box of gloves in the car and never touch a gas pump without putting a fresh pair on. Toss them before you get back in the car. Wouldn't hurt to keep your mask handy either. At least it will minimize gas fumes, for the win. And if you have an electric vehicle, same goes for the charging stations.

And +1 to all the sages encouraging you to use this time to heart-to-heart with your wife.

I need about 2 stops over and 2 stops back.  There is little we'll need once there.  We absolutely could make do without visiting a store.  We prepped for a hurricane while there last Fall that was luckily a no show.  Much of that is still in place.  I'll be ok.  Majored in Microbiology, Army service, multiple decades of work around stuff so toxic that one breath can kill.  I'm a pretty good prepper.  I do appreciate the concern.  DW needs to see her pretty house for a little while.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on April 20, 2020, 05:20:56 AM

FWIW the latest projections from https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/florida show Florida deaths <1,500 through end of July assuming social distancing continues through May. That took a very optimistic turn compared to what the projections were just 12-14 days ago. Most of my wife's family is down there (Citrus County and Tampa) and it's not all doom and gloom.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 20, 2020, 12:57:21 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on April 20, 2020, 05:20:56 AM

FWIW the latest projections from https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/florida show Florida deaths <1,500 through end of July assuming social distancing continues through May. That took a very optimistic turn compared to what the projections were just 12-14 days ago. Most of my wife's family is down there (Citrus County and Tampa) and it's not all doom and gloom.

Our part of Citrus is pretty spaced out.  Probably a person per acre.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 20, 2020, 01:01:44 PM

I'm slipping in negative cost oil here on the gulf coast.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 20, 2020, 04:24:16 PM

From somebody above:

"It's a bit of a wake up call to realize this:  What the heck is all that money good for if you die of Covid 19 before you get to enjoy it?  Fire already, people!  Or at least ramp it back to where it's part of your life, not your whole life."

Good Sense - Finally gave them notice today.  Does all this retirement stuff actually work or is it all faked like the moon shot was years ago?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 20, 2020, 04:32:35 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 20, 2020, 04:24:16 PM

From somebody above:

"It's a bit of a wake up call to realize this:  What the heck is all that money good for if you die of Covid 19 before you get to enjoy it?  Fire already, people!  Or at least ramp it back to where it's part of your life, not your whole life."

Good Sense - Finally gave them notice today.  Does all this retirement stuff actually work or is it all faked like the moon shot was years ago?

It's working great for us!   2 years this May 1st.

I am absolutely thrilled that neither of us have to go to work at someone's beck and call.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on April 20, 2020, 04:38:40 PM

Congratulations @pecunia!! What's your notice period?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 20, 2020, 07:32:23 PM

Quote from: LightTripper on April 20, 2020, 04:38:40 PM

Congratulations @pecunia!! What's your notice period?

It should be the first week in May.  The project is expected to be complete May 1st.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 20, 2020, 07:42:38 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 20, 2020, 07:32:23 PM

Quote from: LightTripper on April 20, 2020, 04:38:40 PM

Congratulations @pecunia!! What's your notice period?

It should be the first week in May.  The project is expected to be complete May 1st.

That's what it is all about!  Good luck and keep us informed on your progress.  All our best to you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: YHD on April 20, 2020, 10:17:49 PM

Hey great news @pecunia !

@Dicey —yeah, I deserve that side-eye.  we’re FI, I consider my gig RE in place.  I have a very nervous IBL, she just has expensive tastes in bags.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on April 21, 2020, 12:57:55 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 20, 2020, 07:42:38 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 20, 2020, 07:32:23 PM

Quote from: LightTripper on April 20, 2020, 04:38:40 PM

Congratulations @pecunia!! What's your notice period?

It should be the first week in May.  The project is expected to be complete May 1st.

That's what it is all about!  Good luck and keep us informed on your progress.  All our best to you.

Wow that's so soon!! I'm always amazed at the shortness of US notice periods. Freedom is close!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on April 21, 2020, 07:22:45 AM

US notice requirements are essentially zero because in most cases where a company isn't closing a major facility, they can let us go on the spot.  It's common to give 2 weeks notice to potentially receive good future referrals.  But in practice, corporations are so gun shy to give any reference, they typically can give exactly 2 pieces of information.  That you worked for them and the time period that you worked.  That's it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 22, 2020, 08:20:21 AM

Quote from: pecunia on April 20, 2020, 04:24:16 PM

From somebody above:

"It's a bit of a wake up call to realize this:  What the heck is all that money good for if you die of Covid 19 before you get to enjoy it?  Fire already, people!  Or at least ramp it back to where it's part of your life, not your whole life."

Good Sense - Finally gave them notice today.  Does all this retirement stuff actually work or is it all faked like the moon shot was years ago?

That's great news!  Congratulations on pulling the plug officially!  Let us know when you take that small step on the moon walk of freedom for pecunia-kind!

That was my little quote above.  Life is short, let's make it sweet...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 22, 2020, 09:47:01 AM

Truck is loaded.  Headed to the Florida house now.  If we make 250K while we are gone I'm staying for good.  🌞😎

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 22, 2020, 10:54:24 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 22, 2020, 09:47:01 AM

Truck is loaded.  Headed to the Florida house now.  If we make 250K while we are gone I'm staying for good.  🌞😎

Careful there, cowboy. There are people who will hold you to that ;-) Happy trails, friend.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on April 22, 2020, 11:10:11 AM

Well, here I am. Coming here with my tail between my legs. I was supposed to turn in my notice Monday and I didn't do it. Why? I let my husband talk me out of it. He got scared because our portfolio decreased $600k. He said "nobody is quitting their job right now", and he's worried he will lose his. (note- the impact COVID is having on Universities is huge) I did take the time to show him cFIREsim and two other similar retirement models and that helped a little but he still isn't totally convinced neither of us have to work.
So new plan for Bean. My work has said they will be completely flexible with me (I tried to get furloughed-didn't work) and I can work from home as much as I want once our home office opens back up. For the summer our nanny is going to come back and work two days a week for us (this helps her as the theme park she also works at will most likely be closed), I will work from home two days and take every Friday or every Friday afternoon off. Then in the fall we'll reevaluate again. I may consider looking for part time then or just quit all together. Hopefully the Universities drop in enrollment won't be quite as bad as everyone is predicting.
sigh- I'm disappointed in myself.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 22, 2020, 11:42:11 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on April 22, 2020, 11:10:11 AM

Well, here I am. Coming here with my tail between my legs. I was supposed to turn in my notice Monday and I didn't do it. Why? I let my husband talk me out of it. He got scared because our portfolio decreased $600k. He said "nobody is quitting their job right now", and he's worried he will lose his. (note- the impact COVID is having on Universities is huge) I did take the time to show him cFIREsim and two other similar retirement models and that helped a little but he still isn't totally convinced neither of us have to work.
So new plan for Bean. My work has said they will be completely flexible with me (I tried to get furloughed-didn't work) and I can work from home as much as I want once our home office opens back up. For the summer our nanny is going to come back and work two days a week for us (this helps her as the theme park she also works at will most likely be closed), I will work from home two days and take every Friday or every Friday afternoon off. Then in the fall we'll reevaluate again. I may consider looking for part time then or just quit all together. Hopefully the Universities drop in enrollment won't be quite as bad as everyone is predicting.
sigh- I'm disappointed in myself.

And so you should be..:)

Honestly as long as you are not desperate to get out then its fine.. Work a few more months, hit new portfolio highs and have a WR of 2 to 3%.. Its all good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on April 22, 2020, 11:54:52 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 22, 2020, 11:42:11 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on April 22, 2020, 11:10:11 AM

Well, here I am. Coming here with my tail between my legs. I was supposed to turn in my notice Monday and I didn't do it. Why? I let my husband talk me out of it. He got scared because our portfolio decreased $600k. He said "nobody is quitting their job right now", and he's worried he will lose his. (note- the impact COVID is having on Universities is huge) I did take the time to show him cFIREsim and two other similar retirement models and that helped a little but he still isn't totally convinced neither of us have to work.
So new plan for Bean. My work has said they will be completely flexible with me (I tried to get furloughed-didn't work) and I can work from home as much as I want once our home office opens back up. For the summer our nanny is going to come back and work two days a week for us (this helps her as the theme park she also works at will most likely be closed), I will work from home two days and take every Friday or every Friday afternoon off. Then in the fall we'll reevaluate again. I may consider looking for part time then or just quit all together. Hopefully the Universities drop in enrollment won't be quite as bad as everyone is predicting.
sigh- I'm disappointed in myself.

And so you should be..:)

Honestly as long as you are not desperate to get out then its fine.. Work a few more months, hit new portfolio highs and have a WR of 2 to 3%.. Its all good.

Well, I was desperate. But this time working from home with the kids has taken some of the pressure off. I'm getting more time with them. I don't have to commute. All of their activities have been suspended because of COVID so we aren't as busy. So for the time being I guess it make sense.

I would love to think that in six months we'll be hitting new portfolio highs, but I don't see how that is possible. I think recovery is going to be a long haul. What is everyone's thoughts on the recovery?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 22, 2020, 01:34:06 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on April 22, 2020, 11:10:11 AM

Well, here I am. Coming here with my tail between my legs. I was supposed to turn in my notice Monday and I didn't do it. Why? I let my husband talk me out of it. He got scared because our portfolio decreased $600k. He said "nobody is quitting their job right now", and he's worried he will lose his. (note- the impact COVID is having on Universities is huge) I did take the time to show him cFIREsim and two other similar retirement models and that helped a little but he still isn't totally convinced neither of us have to work.
So new plan for Bean. My work has said they will be completely flexible with me (I tried to get furloughed-didn't work) and I can work from home as much as I want once our home office opens back up. For the summer our nanny is going to come back and work two days a week for us (this helps her as the theme park she also works at will most likely be closed), I will work from home two days and take every Friday or every Friday afternoon off. Then in the fall we'll reevaluate again. I may consider looking for part time then or just quit all together. Hopefully the Universities drop in enrollment won't be quite as bad as everyone is predicting.
sigh- I'm disappointed in myself.

At least you have an improved work plan. Under the circumstances, I think at least a temporary pass can be arranged.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: desk_jockey on April 22, 2020, 02:36:17 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on April 22, 2020, 11:54:52 AM

Well, I was desperate. But this time working from home with the kids has taken some of the pressure off. I'm getting more time with them. I don't have to commute. All of their activities have been suspended because of COVID so we aren't as busy. So for the time being I guess it make sense.

I would love to think that in six months we'll be hitting new portfolio highs, but I don't see how that is possible. I think recovery is going to be a long haul. What is everyone's thoughts on the recovery?

Don’t be too hard on yourself, as these are unusual times.  It’s OK to be a little cautious.   In most cases working from home won’t interfere too much with sitting at home waiting on the world to get past the COVID situation.
 
I’m lousy at predicting what number the market indicators will hit be in the short term, but I too think the recovery will be a long haul.   There are many issues to overcome, even with liberal application of government stimulus money.   Even if a vaccine were to become widely available in June, it will take some time to work though the economic recovery.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 22, 2020, 02:57:39 PM

Quote from: desk_jockey on April 22, 2020, 02:36:17 PM

I’m lousy at predicting what number the market indicators will hit be in the short term, but I too think the recovery will be a long haul.   There are many issues to overcome, even with liberal application of government stimulus money.   Even if a vaccine were to become widely available in June, it will take some time to work though the economic recovery.

Average length of time for a recession in the US is 1.5 years.   That's already backed into the 4% rule testing.   So if a recession lasts less than 1.5 years you were luckier than average and if it doesn't last that much longer, you were just a tad unluckier than average.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 22, 2020, 03:07:02 PM

Well think of it this way @BeanCounter is still employed then her monthly purchases of stock in the 401k will be at a discount.

Heck, the company may even decide to offer buyouts.. How can one loose?..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 22, 2020, 10:03:37 PM

I think 12-18 months for a full recovery feels about right. Maybe even less.

Everyone is raring to get back to work as soon as it’s safe. We will have to see how much consumer and business confidence has been hit.

BeanCounter, don’t feel alone. My FIRE is also on hold whilst I see how this all plays out.

I got to 97% of my FIRE number in Feb at the market peak, so technically I am there and history says I am safe.... but a little voice keeps whispering in my head “past performance is no guarantee of future returns”.

At the moment we will FIRE in December if the world tracks positively between now and then.

I may still be below my number, but I don’t see that as an issue as I was already practically at my number previously in Feb and will have had an extra 10 months of salary and savings on top. Unless the world goes to shit in the next 8 months I will feel pretty confident heading into FIRE, drawing down what I had planned which might be more than 4% initially until the markets fully recover.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 23, 2020, 08:24:14 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 22, 2020, 03:07:02 PM

Well think of it this way @BeanCounter is still employed then her monthly purchases of stock in the 401k will be at a discount.

Heck, the company may even decide to offer buyouts.. How can one loose?..:)

Did someone say buyout?  I've got 28 years of service.   Yes please!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on April 23, 2020, 09:10:58 AM

@BeanCounter - I'm in a similar position, & don't feel badly about it. I feel lucky to be in the position to have this option, and would add that COVID has made us both less risk averse. We basically want to save enough that we'd be okay if my husband lost his job indefinitely. The likelihood of neither of us being able to find work is...very small, but it helps us sleep at night, and things have changed so much, to your point.

I'm also loving the no commute time. Less homeschooling middle school boys. I used to travel internationally for work (typically every 8 weeks or so), & that was a huge reason for me to want to quit. That's off the table for quite a while, which is also helping.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 23, 2020, 09:27:10 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on April 22, 2020, 11:54:52 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 22, 2020, 11:42:11 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on April 22, 2020, 11:10:11 AM

Well, here I am. Coming here with my tail between my legs. I was supposed to turn in my notice Monday and I didn't do it. Why? I let my husband talk me out of it. He got scared because our portfolio decreased $600k. He said "nobody is quitting their job right now", and he's worried he will lose his. (note- the impact COVID is having on Universities is huge) I did take the time to show him cFIREsim and two other similar retirement models and that helped a little but he still isn't totally convinced neither of us have to work.
So new plan for Bean. My work has said they will be completely flexible with me (I tried to get furloughed-didn't work) and I can work from home as much as I want once our home office opens back up. For the summer our nanny is going to come back and work two days a week for us (this helps her as the theme park she also works at will most likely be closed), I will work from home two days and take every Friday or every Friday afternoon off. Then in the fall we'll reevaluate again. I may consider looking for part time then or just quit all together. Hopefully the Universities drop in enrollment won't be quite as bad as everyone is predicting.
sigh- I'm disappointed in myself.

And so you should be..:)

Honestly as long as you are not desperate to get out then its fine.. Work a few more months, hit new portfolio highs and have a WR of 2 to 3%.. Its all good.

Well, I was desperate. But this time working from home with the kids has taken some of the pressure off. I'm getting more time with them. I don't have to commute. All of their activities have been suspended because of COVID so we aren't as busy. So for the time being I guess it make sense.

I would love to think that in six months we'll be hitting new portfolio highs, but I don't see how that is possible. I think recovery is going to be a long haul. What is everyone's thoughts on the recovery?

That all makes sense to me, and I for one have taken the route of slowing down over time, as once I leave that would hard to impossible to reverse at anywhere near my current pay rate.  The last couple years I've been working from home for about 25 hrs/wk as opposed to the 50+ I was doing.  Was going to FIRE this year, but my needed hours have decreased even more so far this year, so I'm just going to continue (I frankly like some hours more than none, esp. since travel is out for now...). This is obviously a lot easier than your schedule (esp. since it my kids are all a lot older than yours).

The market drop was not very shocking in how far it dropped (even minus a pandemic watching the market drop 30% over a year or so would not have been that surprising to me given what the past 10 years have given us), but how fast it happened made the head spin.  I was then shocked at how fast it came half-way back given all the uncertainty, so I obviously have no gauge for whats next, being at new highs or new lows by June both seem on the table to me.

I find it interesting re: the impact on universities.  I guess I would expect jobs to be at risk, but due to budget cuts (I suspect state revenues will be WAY down, and thus the state university funding, and maybe private university endowments due to market and giving), but I didn't really think about there being that big a difference in enrollment and thus need for university employees.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on April 23, 2020, 09:36:46 AM

With all that's going on maybe the young people will realize why you might not fully retire well into your 50's.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on April 23, 2020, 09:55:40 AM

Quote from: desk_jockey on April 22, 2020, 02:36:17 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on April 22, 2020, 11:54:52 AM

Well, I was desperate. But this time working from home with the kids has taken some of the pressure off. I'm getting more time with them. I don't have to commute. All of their activities have been suspended because of COVID so we aren't as busy. So for the time being I guess it make sense.

I would love to think that in six months we'll be hitting new portfolio highs, but I don't see how that is possible. I think recovery is going to be a long haul. What is everyone's thoughts on the recovery?

Don’t be too hard on yourself, as these are unusual times.  It’s OK to be a little cautious.   In most cases working from home won’t interfere too much with sitting at home waiting on the world to get past the COVID situation.
 
I’m lousy at predicting what number the market indicators will hit be in the short term, but I too think the recovery will be a long haul.   There are many issues to overcome, even with liberal application of government stimulus money.   Even if a vaccine were to become widely available in June, it will take some time to work though the economic recovery.

Bean - If I was still working but ready to FIRE I would most likely keep the paycheck coming in with benefits just for cushion, especially if you are basically locked at home either way and not directly exposed. 

DJ - keep in mind the money being pumped into the system is not stimulus money its protection money that is attempting to preserve the economy as much as possible almost in a form stasis - there is no growth caused by these funds.  There will likely be more rounds of this protective money and then rounds of stimulus money and continued low rates.   

I think the economy will spring back quite a bit but it will be some time and then we will have a much bigger overhang of debt that will drag growth.  And who the heck knows how to unwind all of this.   But the rest of the world is in it too so on a relative basis globally it should be close to neutral - ie it's not like the US is faltering while everyone else is growing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: desk_jockey on April 23, 2020, 01:14:16 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on April 23, 2020, 09:55:40 AM

DJ - keep in mind the money being pumped into the system is not stimulus money its protection money that is attempting to preserve the economy as much as possible almost in a form stasis - there is no growth caused by these funds.  There will likely be more rounds of this protective money and then rounds of stimulus money and continued low rates.   

I think the economy will spring back quite a bit but it will be some time and then we will have a much bigger overhang of debt that will drag growth.  And who the heck knows how to unwind all of this.   But the rest of the world is in it too so on a relative basis globally it should be close to neutral - ie it's not like the US is faltering while everyone else is growing.

Understood.  I was just using the terminology used by the government and media.  Everything to date was really an emergency relief package or try-to-stop-a-panic package, and that stimulus rounds will come later.    Also, I wasn’t saying the 4% rule wouldn’t work as one response addressed.   

I just think it’s going to take more time to work though the situation than others seem to be considering.  1Q GDP numbers are going to be bad and 2Q numbers worse, so we are in a recession.   As we emerge from the medical crisis, 3Q or 4Q will certainly have better numbers that 2Q.  If 2Q GDP is down 30%, then a 10% increase from that in 3Q won’t be spectacular performance even if by official definition it means that the recession is over.

At the beginning of 2020 the market was fairly expensive by historical measures (e.g. PE10), somewhat priced for perfection.   At the present the market is down only 15% from the peak, which isn’t much. 

In my very limited survey, people tell me their (non-medical) companies are focused on reducing costs and delaying supplier payments.  Their salespeople are fielding customer requests for pricing reductions and payment considerations more than new sales.   Layoffs and furloughs are at astounding levels.   Already there are unprecedented numbers franchise-own hotels entering bankruptcy.  I imagine will see significant bankruptcies with restaurants and other heavily impacted businesses.

I don’t see it taking only 12-18 months to have a full recovery, if recovery means everything is back to 2019 GDP levels.  As we recover, companies won’t be as quick to rehire, bring back contractors & consultants, invest or return business travel to previous levels as they were to stop everything in March and April.  It should take more than 24 months to get back to where economic measures were at the end of 2019. 

To me, that makes it seem like the stock market is still relatively expensive and things should go down or move sideways for a while.  No, I haven’t sold to wait things out.  I still make regular scheduled investments and haven’t changed asset allocations.   But I’m also not scraping together every free dollar to buy extra because I’m convinced stocks are cheap and will bounce back quickly. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on April 23, 2020, 01:47:50 PM

Quote from: desk_jockey on April 23, 2020, 01:14:16 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on April 23, 2020, 09:55:40 AM

DJ - keep in mind the money being pumped into the system is not stimulus money its protection money that is attempting to preserve the economy as much as possible almost in a form stasis - there is no growth caused by these funds.  There will likely be more rounds of this protective money and then rounds of stimulus money and continued low rates.   

I think the economy will spring back quite a bit but it will be some time and then we will have a much bigger overhang of debt that will drag growth.  And who the heck knows how to unwind all of this.   But the rest of the world is in it too so on a relative basis globally it should be close to neutral - ie it's not like the US is faltering while everyone else is growing.

Understood.  I was just using the terminology used by the government and media.  Everything to date was really an emergency relief package or try-to-stop-a-panic package, and that stimulus rounds will come later.    Also, I wasn’t saying the 4% rule wouldn’t work as one response addressed.   

I just think it’s going to take more time to work though the situation than others seem to be considering.  1Q GDP numbers are going to be bad and 2Q numbers worse, so we are in a recession.   As we emerge from the medical crisis, 3Q or 4Q will certainly have better numbers that 2Q.  If 2Q GDP is down 30%, then a 10% increase from that in 3Q won’t be spectacular performance even if by official definition it means that the recession is over.

At the beginning of 2020 the market was fairly expensive by historical measures (e.g. PE10), somewhat priced for perfection.   At the present the market is down only 15% from the peak, which isn’t much. 

In my very limited survey, people tell me their (non-medical) companies are focused on reducing costs and delaying supplier payments.  Their salespeople are fielding customer requests for pricing reductions and payment considerations more than new sales.   Layoffs and furloughs are at astounding levels.   Already there are unprecedented numbers franchise-own hotels entering bankruptcy.  I imagine will see significant bankruptcies with restaurants and other heavily impacted businesses.

I don’t see it taking only 12-18 months to have a full recovery, if recovery means everything is back to 2019 GDP levels.  As we recover, companies won’t be as quick to rehire, bring back contractors & consultants, invest or return business travel to previous levels as they were to stop everything in March and April.  It should take more than 24 months to get back to where economic measures were at the end of 2019. 

To me, that makes it seem like the stock market is still relatively expensive and things should go down or move sideways for a while.  No, I haven’t sold to wait things out.  I still make regular scheduled investments and haven’t changed asset allocations.   But I’m also not scraping together every free dollar to buy extra because I’m convinced stocks are cheap and will bounce back quickly.

I basically agree with you.  I do spring back, as in open, but everything else will take longer.  I think we will "technically" get out of the recession fairly quickly (i.e two quarters of declining growth), heck by that definition the 3rd quarter may be the one that gets us out - all you have to do is go from nothing now to something then, right?

But everything else will take longer and I have said elsewhere we never turned off the stimulus or QE/Fed support from the financial crisis.

As for the markets, I clearly don't understand and don't time, just stick to my AA which is conservative.  But markets were definitely stretched going into this year for sure.  I felt before the QE/Rate cuts in 2019 that SP500 at 2900 was the high point of being fairly valued bc earnings didn't grow so I am really struggling to understand how it being at 2750-2850 now is appropriate, I mean I like it higher than lower, but I just don't get it.  Below is what I think of SP500 - $2600 or less is where I think it should be right now and honestly $2300 didn't and still doesn't seem crazy to me.    Not much I will do with it but I use it as a guide post.   

SP500 earnings  with 20PE IMO appropriate
2016...……………………………………………………………...$101...………………..$2020
2017...……………………………………………………………...$115...………………..$2300
2018 (tax cut, no growth otherwise)...……………$136...………………..$2720
2019 (no growth)...………………………………………….$140...………………..$2800
2020 (original est)…………………………………………...$162...………………..$3240
2020 (revised) ????………..doesn't matter, pe will be really high
2021???? (20% drop from 2020 est)………………$129...…………………$2592

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 24, 2020, 06:42:54 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 23, 2020, 08:24:14 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 22, 2020, 03:07:02 PM

Well think of it this way @BeanCounter is still employed then her monthly purchases of stock in the 401k will be at a discount.

Heck, the company may even decide to offer buyouts.. How can one loose?..:)

Did someone say buyout?  I've got 28 years of service.   Yes please!

Buyout? You don't need no stinkin' buyout!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 24, 2020, 01:27:11 PM

Quote from: Dicey on April 24, 2020, 06:42:54 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 23, 2020, 08:24:14 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 22, 2020, 03:07:02 PM

Well think of it this way @BeanCounter is still employed then her monthly purchases of stock in the 401k will be at a discount.

Heck, the company may even decide to offer buyouts.. How can one loose?..:)

Did someone say buyout?  I've got 28 years of service.   Yes please!

Buyout? You dont need no stinkin' buyout!

August 2020 I'm considered a retiree.  Basically means we may be invited to the company picnic.  Won't be one this year.  It's 2023 to be offered their health care which isn't a great price anyways.  Haven't gotten a lot done in Florida this trip.  Friends are coming up from Orlando for Gumbo, red beans and Jambalaya tommorow.  They love my wife's Cajun Cooking.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 25, 2020, 12:27:15 AM

We were allowed out for the first time in a month yesterday (in Dubai). We had been in a full lockdown, even needing a permit to go to the supermarket. We were not even allowed outside to go for a walk.

I am very surprised that the authorities relaxed the restrictions quite dramatically at this time given new cases and deaths are still increasing every day. We haven’t reached a peak yet.

I think the combination of economic necessity and Ramadan triggered the move.

We are now allowed to exercise outdoors for up to 2 hours a day, offices can open with no more than 30% of staff working in company offices, shopping malls are open (but they are required to close of 75% of parking spaces to keep numbers of shoppers down. Restaurants and cafes are also open, however, not allowed to have more than 30% of tables used.

We must wear face masks everywhere outside our home.

Even bars around the city were opened from yesterday, and unsurprisingly after a month of not being open there were queues to get in. Bars are only allowed to operate at 30% of capacity and patrons are meant to wear masks. But as drinking beer and wearing face masks doesn’t work (unless you drink beer with a straw), face masks were pretty much abandoned.

It will be interesting to see whether this relaxation of restrictions results in an acceleration in new cases, or not.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 03:38:03 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 22, 2020, 10:54:24 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 22, 2020, 09:47:01 AM

Truck is loaded.  Headed to the Florida house now.  If we make 250K while we are gone I'm staying for good.  🌞😎

Careful there, cowboy. There are people who will hold you to that ;-) Happy trails, friend.

Headed back to Louisiana for work tomorrow.  Only made 25K this week off.  Hopefully back down here in two weeks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 28, 2020, 09:25:12 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 03:38:03 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 22, 2020, 10:54:24 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 22, 2020, 09:47:01 AM

Truck is loaded.  Headed to the Florida house now.  If we make 250K while we are gone I'm staying for good.  🌞😎

Careful there, cowboy. There are people who will hold you to that ;-) Happy trails, friend.

Headed back to Louisiana for work tomorrow.  Only made 25K this week off.  Hopefully back down here in two weeks.

You only made $25k in a week.. Poor love, what you doing out there.. Robbing banks?..:)

Reminds me, we watched the movie about Bernie Madoff with Robert De Niro (called the Wizard or Lies). It was great.. but what an a**hole that guy is/was.

At the end of the movie DW (who knows not so much about our financial affairs, although not as clueless as Madoff's wife was made out to be) asks me... "Soooo.. WE'RE not doing anything underhand are we?".. Well not to the tune of 50 Billion dollars we're not...:)

I guess our modest NW of somewhere around $3M is an unfathomable amount of moolah to my dear Wife..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 28, 2020, 10:13:07 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 28, 2020, 09:25:12 AM

You only made $25k in a week.. Poor love, what you doing out there.. Robbing banks?..:)

Reminds me, we watched the movie about Bernie Madoff with Robert De Niro (called the Wizard or Lies). It was great.. but what an a**hole that guy is/was.

At the end of the movie DW (who knows not so much about our financial affairs, although not as clueless as Madoff's wife was made out to be) asks me... "Soooo.. WE'RE not doing anything underhand are we?".. Well not to the tune of 50 Billion dollars we're not...:)

I guess our modest NW of somewhere around $3M is an unfathomable amount of moolah to my dear Wife..:)

It does feel really odd to see the NW go up while the economy seems to be dead in the water.  I wouldn't say that I'm personally doing anything underhanded, but I feel a bit guilty about the US government taking out lots of debt on the backs of future generations so my portfolio can stay healthy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 28, 2020, 12:28:09 PM

Hi everyone - so I am a covid survivor :-) I was progressively feeling more sick by the day in early April and then developed a fever and cough. Got tested and found that I was indeed positive. However, thankfully, in my case, the fever broke after a few days and I was already on the mend by the time I got the test results. It took a few of weeks of misery but I'm now pretty much back to normal. It still feels a bit unreal - it was a close call.

Meanwhile, with no effort, our net worth has stabilized and we are only down about 16% from the peak it reached in February. Meanwhile, I am still employed and so is my wife. As @EscapeVelocity2020 says, it feels odd to be accumulating money when the economy is in deep freeze.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 28, 2020, 03:17:03 PM

Indeed for me it all feels a bit surreal.. I mean Why is the market only down 16% when the economy is literally in the toilet? I can't see this holding up for too much longer.

Whats more the Government is going to send me $2400 to help me and DW out... Umm OK, thanks very much.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 04:32:57 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 28, 2020, 09:25:12 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 03:38:03 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 22, 2020, 10:54:24 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 22, 2020, 09:47:01 AM

Truck is loaded.  Headed to the Florida house now.  If we make 250K while we are gone I'm staying for good.  🌞😎

Careful there, cowboy. There are people who will hold you to that ;-) Happy trails, friend.

Headed back to Louisiana for work tomorrow.  Only made 25K this week off.  Hopefully back down here in two weeks.

You only made $25k in a week.. Poor love, what you doing out there.. Robbing banks?..:)

Reminds me, we watched the movie about Bernie Madoff with Robert De Niro (called the Wizard or Lies). It was great.. but what an a**hole that guy is/was.

At the end of the movie DW (who knows not so much about our financial affairs, although not as clueless as Madoff's wife was made out to be) asks me... "Soooo.. WE'RE not doing anything underhand are we?".. Well not to the tune of 50 Billion dollars we're not...:)

I guess our modest NW of somewhere around $3M is an unfathomable amount of moolah to my dear Wife..:)

It did make it difficult to drive back from our Florida paradise today, to return to work tomorrow. My week at work will gross about 1/10 that.   It was a pretty good rebound week for the market.  We'd have made more if I'd moved back into being fully invested.  I'm happy with our position of safety however.  Could be back in Florida in a week if things work out.  But yes, Main Street is suffering and will continue to.   Wall Street couldn't care less with all the government debt making its way into the market.  There is an ever growing disparity between the have and have nots in our country.  We're closer to the have's. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 28, 2020, 04:42:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 28, 2020, 03:17:03 PM

Indeed for me it all feels a bit surreal.. I mean Why is the market only down 16% when the economy is literally in the toilet? I can't see this holding up for too much longer.

Whats more the Government is going to send me $2400 to help me and DW out... Umm OK, thanks very much.

Live the dream man.  Just don't wake up for a while.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 28, 2020, 05:57:35 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 04:32:57 PM

   Wall Street couldn't care less with all the government debt making its way into the market.  There is an ever growing disparity between the have and have nots in our country.  We're closer to the have's.

Good point. I have friends who have been laid off and have nothing in savings.

I think anyone with over $1M in savings is vastly better off than some of our less fortunate.

Of course (at the risk of gloating) it also points out why not buying crap with money you don't have is generally a good idea.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 06:27:07 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 28, 2020, 05:57:35 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 04:32:57 PM

   Wall Street couldn't care less with all the government debt making its way into the market.  There is an ever growing disparity between the have and have nots in our country.  We're closer to the have's.

Good point. I have friends who have been laid off and have nothing in savings.

I think anyone with over $1M in savings is vastly better off than some of our less fortunate.

Of course (at the risk of gloating) it also points out why not buying crap with money you don't have is generally a good idea.

I'm thinking the consumer may finally get just a bit scared of spending what they can't afford.  Since we are a consumption economy that is what may drag the economy and ultimately Wall Street down further.  Theee is no rational reason for the current rally.  I hope I'm wrong.  But yeah, we have extreme advantage over 90 percent of others right now.  I'm sure most of us started with next to nothing and hard work with good decisions brought you here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 28, 2020, 07:25:32 PM

Luck helps.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 28, 2020, 07:46:38 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 06:27:07 PM

I'm sure most of us started with next to nothing and hard work with good decisions brought you here.

Most of us started on first base (born in Western democracy) or second base (born in middle class with not-awful parents in one of those countries), and most of us were lucky enough not to get some serious injury or debilitating disease that would have trashed all our hard work,   but otherwise, yes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 08:20:09 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 28, 2020, 07:46:38 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 06:27:07 PM

I'm sure most of us started with next to nothing and hard work with good decisions brought you here.

Most of us started on first base (born in Western democracy) or second base (born in middle class with not-awful parents in one of those countries), and most of us were lucky enough not to get some serious injury or debilitating disease that would have trashed all our hard work,   but otherwise, yes.

Yes we won the birth lottery, also my wife and I had good loving parents.  There we're many forked paths where the wrong turn as a dead end.  It could be luck, we rolled the dice and flipped the coin better than average.   It could be divine guidance.   Maybe the godess just doesn't like most people.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 28, 2020, 08:25:06 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 08:20:09 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 28, 2020, 07:46:38 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 06:27:07 PM

I'm sure most of us started with next to nothing and hard work with good decisions brought you here.

Most of us started on first base (born in Western democracy) or second base (born in middle class with not-awful parents in one of those countries), and most of us were lucky enough not to get some serious injury or debilitating disease that would have trashed all our hard work,   but otherwise, yes.

Yes we won the birth lottery, also my wife and I had good loving parents.  There we're many forked paths where the wrong turn as a dead end.  It could be luck, we rolled the dice and flipped the coin better than average.   It could be divine guidance.   Maybe the godess just doesn't like most people.

My comment is in no way disparaging to the many very good decisions the people on this FIRE process have made and are making.

I'm just pointing out that most of us didn't "start with next to nothing" and most of us were also lucky.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 08:32:11 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 28, 2020, 08:25:06 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 08:20:09 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 28, 2020, 07:46:38 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 06:27:07 PM

I'm sure most of us started with next to nothing and hard work with good decisions brought you here.

Most of us started on first base (born in Western democracy) or second base (born in middle class with not-awful parents in one of those countries), and most of us were lucky enough not to get some serious injury or debilitating disease that would have trashed all our hard work,   but otherwise, yes.

Yes we won the birth lottery, also my wife and I had good loving parents.  There we're many forked paths where the wrong turn as a dead end.  It could be luck, we rolled the dice and flipped the coin better than average.   It could be divine guidance.   Maybe the godess just doesn't like most people.

My comment is in no way disparaging to the many very good decisions the people on this FIRE process have made and are making.

I'm just pointing out that most of us didn't "start with next to nothing" and most of us were also lucky.

Certainly, we stepped on an escalator already in motion.  Luck helps.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 28, 2020, 10:07:18 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 08:32:11 PM

Certainly, we stepped on an escalator already in motion.  Luck helps.

Let's not forget, the S&P500 went from a low of 667-ish on March 5, 2009 to a high of 3394 Feb 18, 2020 - pretty easy to make money if you've been around for a while.  But hard work and savings didn't hurt either.  Just feeling very doubtful right now that the next decade will see a similar return on investment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 02:26:07 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 28, 2020, 10:07:18 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2020, 08:32:11 PM

Certainly, we stepped on an escalator already in motion.  Luck helps.

Let's not forget, the S&P500 went from a low of 667-ish on March 5, 2009 to a high of 3394 Feb 18, 2020 - pretty easy to make money if you've been around for a while.  But hard work and savings didn't hurt either.  Just feeling very doubtful right now that the next decade will see a similar return on investment.

Yep.  That's exactly what I was referring to.  The escalator always goes up in time.  If you never get off you'll go higher, you just have to hang on through a few rough dips.  Survival of those dips is key.   Yesterday I dipped $5,000 turns out.  That's a total emergency fund for some who actually feel comfortable.  It's an annual salary in some countries.  It's a blip for us.  Not even a memory the next day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 29, 2020, 03:42:03 AM

I am also somewhat surprised by my own financial recovery.

Whilst my NW is still a ways short of the Feb peak, we are now in positive territory in terms of NW growth for the YTD.

I was financially poorer at 31 December than I am today. This is difficult to fathom.

I continued to buy some shares in March, albeit less than I might have sans COVID, and am reaping the rewards of that. I also converted some USD denominated investments to AUD denominated investments, with the AUD recovering about 10% v the USD in recent weeks. Finally, AUst  property prices are yet to show any decline but this is bound to come.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 07:37:56 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on April 29, 2020, 03:42:03 AM

I am also somewhat surprised by my own financial recovery.

Whilst my NW is still a ways short of the Feb peak, we are now in positive territory in terms of NW growth for the YTD.

I was financially poorer at 31 December than I am today. This is difficult to fathom.

I continued to buy some shares in March, albeit less than I might have sans COVID, and am reaping the rewards of that. I also converted some USD denominated investments to AUD denominated investments, with the AUD recovering about 10% v the USD in recent weeks. Finally, AUst  property prices are yet to show any decline but this is bound to come.

Same here Itchy. We're only down from the very top of the bubble.  I'm still above my personal long term trend and projection.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 29, 2020, 08:39:18 AM

At the moment, the S&P 500 is just down 0.55% from the champagne cork-popping highs of a year ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 09:06:42 AM

GDP contracts a more than expected 4.8% for the first quarter, personal consumption dropped 7.8% (vs. 3.6% expected).  Consumers are 70% of the US economy and are facing an unprecedented spike in unemployment, so much so that they are not able to get enrolled in unemployment due to backlog...  and yet the S&P is currently up ~2.5%?  Based on the Fed (with already ZIRP and unlimited QE) having a meeting today?  Based on some positive news on Remdesivir? 

None of this makes any common sense.  I have no idea how people can be buying at this point.  The stock market is completely unhinged from reality - even if a vaccine came out at 2pm today, I don't think earnings would return to 2019 levels for years.  Unemployment certainly won't spring back to 3 - 4% by the end of 2020. 

Still have my automatic 401k investments, but that's all the risk I have stomach for.  As a true Mustachian, I hate the feeling that I'm overpaying for something that is bound to lose value.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 10:55:04 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 09:06:42 AM

GDP contracts a more than expected 4.8% for the first quarter, personal consumption dropped 7.8% (vs. 3.6% expected).  Consumers are 70% of the US economy and are facing an unprecedented spike in unemployment, so much so that they are not able to get enrolled in unemployment due to backlog...  and yet the S&P is currently up ~2.5%?  Based on the Fed (with already ZIRP and unlimited QE) having a meeting today?  Based on some positive news on Remdesivir? 

None of this makes any common sense.  I have no idea how people can be buying at this point.  The stock market is completely unhinged from reality - even if a vaccine came out at 2pm today, I don't think earnings would return to 2019 levels for years.  Unemployment certainly won't spring back to 3 - 4% by the end of 2020. 

Still have my automatic 401k investments, but that's all the risk I have stomach for.  As a true Mustachian, I hate the feeling that I'm overpaying for something that is bound to lose value.

I'm on the verge of selling everything in stock today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on April 29, 2020, 11:19:26 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 10:55:04 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 09:06:42 AM

GDP contracts a more than expected 4.8% for the first quarter, personal consumption dropped 7.8% (vs. 3.6% expected).  Consumers are 70% of the US economy and are facing an unprecedented spike in unemployment, so much so that they are not able to get enrolled in unemployment due to backlog...  and yet the S&P is currently up ~2.5%?  Based on the Fed (with already ZIRP and unlimited QE) having a meeting today?  Based on some positive news on Remdesivir? 

None of this makes any common sense.  I have no idea how people can be buying at this point.  The stock market is completely unhinged from reality - even if a vaccine came out at 2pm today, I don't think earnings would return to 2019 levels for years.  Unemployment certainly won't spring back to 3 - 4% by the end of 2020. 

Still have my automatic 401k investments, but that's all the risk I have stomach for.  As a true Mustachian, I hate the feeling that I'm overpaying for something that is bound to lose value.

I'm on the verge of selling everything in stock today.

That's probably the right move because I've been considering buying...  ;)


My TDG shares are up over 10% today so I think it's time to sell off about 1/2 of it, but if it continues up another 10% tomorrow I'll regret it.  I've come to realize missing out is much easier to swallow than losing.  Sort'a like running away from a fight is a lot better than getting your butt kicked! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 29, 2020, 11:55:52 AM

Hah.. If I sold everything in equities the tax bill would be brutal and I'd have to pay all my healthcare subsidies back... so mmm no I don't think I will.

Its tempting though in my tax advantaged accounts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: savingstldad on April 29, 2020, 12:15:45 PM

I won't be selling anything until I FIRE. 

I get the feeling you guys like to buy and sell in an attempt to time the market, which goes against most of the advice this community supports.  Are you just kidding about selling it all, or do you subscribe to trying to time the market and buy/sell based on that?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 29, 2020, 12:16:01 PM

I definitely know I am bad at predicting whats next so will stick to my AA.  But I think this is definitely an opportunity for some of those who have discovered their AA is a bit too high risk for them to sleep at night (so anyone who didn't have enough in in 2000 and 2008 to be tested) to move to lower risk allocations now without too much pain given this is pretty much where we were 6 months ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 12:34:18 PM

Quote from: savingstldad on April 29, 2020, 12:15:45 PM

I won't be selling anything until I FIRE. 

I get the feeling you guys like to buy and sell in an attempt to time the market, which goes against most of the advice this community supports.  Are you just kidding about selling it all, or do you subscribe to trying to time the market and buy/sell based on that?

. There are no rules for where we are.  Capitalism has been suspended and replaced with the Fed balance sheet.   The FOMO upward risk is getting very small.  The downward risk is huge.  If you believe that this recession is only about the pandemic and that it's rainbows and unicorns after stay invested.  I had the same fears last year.  Probably won't sell it all but I could drop to 20 or 25 percent stock.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on April 29, 2020, 12:49:08 PM

Quote from: savingstldad on April 29, 2020, 12:15:45 PM

I won't be selling anything until I FIRE. 

I get the feeling you guys like to buy and sell in an attempt to time the market, which goes against most of the advice this community supports.  Are you just kidding about selling it all, or do you subscribe to trying to time the market and buy/sell based on that?

Personally, I'm new to buying individual stocks and realized that I'd made a mistake after buying it.  It's up now, so I'm reversing course.  I'd originally planned to hold it long term. 


Btw, since buying the TDG stock I discovered a site, Obermatt.com, that makes it very easy to evaluate stocks and build a portfolio.  I realize index funds are the smart & safe way to invest in equities, but I have always wanted to learn to invest in stocks too.  A couple of days ago I chose 19 stocks (one stock cost over my $1000 limit) and bought approximately $1000 worth of each.  It's small money & spread out among a variety of sectors.  So far my portfolio has beat the market by 2-3%, so I'm excited.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 29, 2020, 12:52:42 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 29, 2020, 12:16:01 PM

I definitely know I am bad at predicting whats next so will stick to my AA.  But I think this is definitely an opportunity for some of those who have discovered their AA is a bit too high risk for them to sleep at night (so anyone who didn't have enough in in 2000 and 2008 to be tested) to move to lower risk allocations now without too much pain given this is pretty much where we were 6 months ago.

This is a fair point.

Back in Feb when stocks dropped their first 10% I considered selling a good chunk of stocks, expecting the market to drop more. But I was too lazy and scared of all of the face punches I would receive for trying to time the market if I got it wrong. So I rode it to the bottom and then back to here. I even bought $50K more stocks near the bottom.

Again, I ask myself the question. The market seems over priced. Maybe I should sell.... and again I conclude that I will just let the assets ride, and at the next dip I will buy in even more.

I am hesitant to buy right now unless there is a nice dip, or some very positive signs of people getting back to work. Maybe I have been reading to much shock press, but I struggle to believe we are out of the woods on this.

My boss seems to think so. He is making it mandatory for the local management team to return to the office even though we have not peaked on cases yet in the UAE (every day is a new record), and even though the govt guidance says we should only return to the office if it is essential. Me being in the office is certainly not essential and very debatable whether it is any better than me working from home. We are only allowed to have 30% of the staff back in the office, but my boss wants senior management a part of that 30%.

I am pushing back quite hard on my boss’ demands (FU money attitude maybe), but I feel he is being unnecessarily reckless. Maybe this will end up damaging our working relationship for good, as I don’t intend complying with his directive.... and surprisingly, given the situation, I am on my own. My fellow peers are all agreeing to get back to the office, no fuss. I really just can’t understand. I’ll let you know next Monday whether I cave in, or stick to my guns. Maybe there will be a big drop in new cases in the next 4 days and I’ll relax my stance.... even then I still think working anywhere but at home, unless it’s necessary, is a bit silly at this time. Maybe some of you can help me empathise better with my boss.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on April 29, 2020, 01:12:04 PM

So I rebalanced as the  markets went down and now they are up a bit since and I will be rolling out of that money as long as the market doesn't crash down by the end of the day.   No tax hit bc as the markets fell I also did a bunch of tax loss harvesting so that will offset the new gains.   The selling will basically get me back to my AA +/- so its not like I am selling everything, but Per my post below from a week ago I just don't understand these levels given the hit to the economy now and into the foreseeable future, I see that I am not alone in that feeling. 

I guess people that can spend will probably go back to it but ignoring the millions of people that will remain unemployed or in a precarious financial position how does it go back to normal anytime soon if social distancing will still be the priority. i.e. a restaurant or movie theater can't just create space to keep people separated, that will be a lot of empty seats. 

I guess the main caveat is "Don't fight the fed"

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on April 23, 2020, 01:47:50 PM

As for the markets, I clearly don't understand and don't time, just stick to my AA which is conservative.  But markets were definitely stretched going into this year for sure.  I felt before the QE/Rate cuts in 2019 that SP500 at 2900 was the high point of being fairly valued bc earnings didn't grow so I am really struggling to understand how it being at 2750-2850 now is appropriate, I mean I like it higher than lower, but I just don't get it.  Below is what I think of SP500 - $2600 or less is where I think it should be right now and honestly $2300 didn't and still doesn't seem crazy to me.    Not much I will do with it but I use it as a guide post.   

SP500 earnings  with 20PE IMO appropriate
2016...……………………………………………………………...$101...………………..$2020
2017...……………………………………………………………...$115...………………..$2300
2018 (tax cut, no growth otherwise)...……………$136...………………..$2720
2019 (no growth)...………………………………………….$140...………………..$2800
2020 (original est)…………………………………………...$162...………………..$3240
2020 (revised) ????………..doesn't matter, pe will be really high
2021???? (20% drop from 2020 est)………………$129...…………………$2592

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 02:30:43 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 12:34:18 PM

Quote from: savingstldad on April 29, 2020, 12:15:45 PM

I won't be selling anything until I FIRE. 

I get the feeling you guys like to buy and sell in an attempt to time the market, which goes against most of the advice this community supports.  Are you just kidding about selling it all, or do you subscribe to trying to time the market and buy/sell based on that?

. There are no rules for where we are.  Capitalism has been suspended and replaced with the Fed balance sheet.   The FOMO upward risk is getting very small.  The downward risk is huge.  If you believe that this recession is only about the pandemic and that it's rainbows and unicorns after stay invested.  I had the same fears last year.  Probably won't sell it all but I could drop to 20 or 25 percent stock.

I didn't do any selling today.  Probably will come to regret that.  I'll see where we are Friday. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 04:51:04 PM

It really is a crazy situation to be in, one where an investor can't win.  If you want to get out, then you're missing out on what the Fed promises to be a free-for all buffet lunch for the market.  The Fed clearly said today that economic activity is too low, businesses need to be kept alive, and Congress has to get more money out to consumers. 

But if you stay invested, you know you are holding assets that are being propped up by issuing debt.  The government may be able to issue a lot of debt for a long time, but what if they can't?  It is common sense that EPS expansion can't go on forever - investors ultimately want to own companies that increase earnings over time.  In the US, the earnings come from consumers (or exports) and that's all gone in an unprecedented way.  No one has any idea what earnings will be or how long it will take for things to return to 'normal'.  In the meantime, many businesses will simply be unable to make money, but still have to service debt, pay rents, pay employees...

So, do you hold your bets for a few more days/weeks/months, thinking there's probably another few trillion coming from the Fed and Congress or do you rationalize that you're already pretty lucky to be able to sell stuff at inflated prices and sit out the roller coaster ride?

If only bonds or real estate offered a viable alternative!  I'm sure there will be lots of great opportunities to buy stuff at reasonable prices at some point, I just hope I'm patient enough not to blow myself up in the meantime.  I really have no idea what a reasonable S&P500 level is until we get some idea of earnings, so if it falls, how do you know when it has hit the floor?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 29, 2020, 06:05:35 PM

All this money in which you guys have accumulated has given you luxury.  Now I'm not talking a yacht or a private Lear Jet.  You have the luxury of time.  You can sit back and wait.

Is this thing going to last forever?  Remember forever is a very long time.  I think not.

Were we talking recession before this Chinese bat virus?  You bet we were.  Were you ready for it then?  Maybe.

People are still what they were.  They want new cars.  They need food.  They want to make a good life for themselves.  The economic system will adapt to their needs and the economy will grow.  I guarantee it.

It won't happen overnight, but it will happen.  In the meantime, invest wisely and enjoy the luxury.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 06:20:20 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 04:51:04 PM

It really is a crazy situation to be in, one where an investor can't win.  If you want to get out, then you're missing out on what the Fed promises to be a free-for all buffet lunch for the market.  The Fed clearly said today that economic activity is too low, businesses need to be kept alive, and Congress has to get more money out to consumers. 

But if you stay invested, you know you are holding assets that are being propped up by issuing debt.  The government may be able to issue a lot of debt for a long time, but what if they can't?  It is common sense that EPS expansion can't go on forever - investors ultimately want to own companies that increase earnings over time.  In the US, the earnings come from consumers (or exports) and that's all gone in an unprecedented way.  No one has any idea what earnings will be or how long it will take for things to return to 'normal'.  In the meantime, many businesses will simply be unable to make money, but still have to service debt, pay rents, pay employees...

So, do you hold your bets for a few more days/weeks/months, thinking there's probably another few trillion coming from the Fed and Congress or do you rationalize that you're already pretty lucky to be able to sell stuff at inflated prices and sit out the roller coaster ride?

If only bonds or real estate offered a viable alternative!  I'm sure there will be lots of great opportunities to buy stuff at reasonable prices at some point, I just hope I'm patient enough not to blow myself up in the meantime.  I really have no idea what a reasonable S&P500 level is until we get some idea of earnings, so if it falls, how do you know when it has hit the floor?

Exactly what I'm feeling.  All common sense is gone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 29, 2020, 07:16:13 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on April 29, 2020, 12:52:42 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 29, 2020, 12:16:01 PM

I definitely know I am bad at predicting whats next so will stick to my AA.  But I think this is definitely an opportunity for some of those who have discovered their AA is a bit too high risk for them to sleep at night (so anyone who didn't have enough in in 2000 and 2008 to be tested) to move to lower risk allocations now without too much pain given this is pretty much where we were 6 months ago.

This is a fair point.

Back in Feb when stocks dropped their first 10% I considered selling a good chunk of stocks, expecting the market to drop more. But I was too lazy and scared of all of the face punches I would receive for trying to time the market if I got it wrong. So I rode it to the bottom and then back to here. I even bought $50K more stocks near the bottom.

Again, I ask myself the question. The market seems over priced. Maybe I should sell.... and again I conclude that I will just let the assets ride, and at the next dip I will buy in even more.

I am hesitant to buy right now unless there is a nice dip, or some very positive signs of people getting back to work. Maybe I have been reading to much shock press, but I struggle to believe we are out of the woods on this.

My boss seems to think so. He is making it mandatory for the local management team to return to the office even though we have not peaked on cases yet in the UAE (every day is a new record), and even though the govt guidance says we should only return to the office if it is essential. Me being in the office is certainly not essential and very debatable whether it is any better than me working from home. We are only allowed to have 30% of the staff back in the office, but my boss wants senior management a part of that 30%.

I am pushing back quite hard on my boss’ demands (FU money attitude maybe), but I feel he is being unnecessarily reckless. Maybe this will end up damaging our working relationship for good, as I don’t intend complying with his directive.... and surprisingly, given the situation, I am on my own. My fellow peers are all agreeing to get back to the office, no fuss. I really just can’t understand. I’ll let you know next Monday whether I cave in, or stick to my guns. Maybe there will be a big drop in new cases in the next 4 days and I’ll relax my stance.... even then I still think working anywhere but at home, unless it’s necessary, is a bit silly at this time. Maybe some of you can help me empathise better with my boss.

When the US government meets, like when the President and VP go to the combined Congress, certain key people in management are not allowed to attend.   They are "Designated Survivors".  If everyone else dies from some catastrophic event, there are still people in positions of authority to carry on.

Maybe you can sell yourself as the "Designated Survivor".    Tell your boss you understand you won't earn as many brownie points by not being in the office, but you're willing to take that disadvantage for the team, so in the unhappy event they all get sick, he'll still look good because the office will still be functional.

Let me know if it works...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 09:30:26 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 29, 2020, 06:05:35 PM

....
People are still what they were.  They want new cars.  They need food.  They want to make a good life for themselves.  The economic system will adapt to their needs and the economy will grow.  I guarantee it.
...

It seems like, when people earn their money, they buy things like cars, food, vacations, etc.  When the government hands them money, they aren't quite so smart - https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/Fulfilling-warnings-lottery-sales-surge-as-COVID-15219652.php

Quote

On Tuesday afternoon, the Texas Lottery released what appeared to be great news: sales of instant scratch-off tickets, by far its largest source of revenue, had surged from the previous week, jumping to $112 million dollars.

The leap came after a month of plunging sales, presumably due to the sputtering pandemic economy, in which revenues had dropped compared to the same periods in 2019. The April 18 weekly figures, by comparison, outpaced the same week in 2019 by more than $15 million - a 16 percent jump.

To some, however, the precise timing of the dramatic revenue jump in the midst of a crashing economy signaled terrible news — that instead of spending their government relief checks on food, utilities and rent, Texans appeared to be using their personal stimulus payments of up to $1,200 on state-sponsored gaming.

Bottom line, people don't do well on unemployment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 29, 2020, 10:38:58 PM

And just like that the ASX is up almost another 3% today.

But... Australia is very close to total eradication of coronavirus so maybe this will give consumers a boost of confidence as they get back to their lives...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 29, 2020, 10:58:49 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 06:20:20 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 04:51:04 PM

It really is a crazy situation to be in, one where an investor can't win.  If you want to get out, then you're missing out on what the Fed promises to be a free-for all buffet lunch for the market.  The Fed clearly said today that economic activity is too low, businesses need to be kept alive, and Congress has to get more money out to consumers. 

But if you stay invested, you know you are holding assets that are being propped up by issuing debt.  The government may be able to issue a lot of debt for a long time, but what if they can't?  It is common sense that EPS expansion can't go on forever - investors ultimately want to own companies that increase earnings over time.  In the US, the earnings come from consumers (or exports) and that's all gone in an unprecedented way.  No one has any idea what earnings will be or how long it will take for things to return to 'normal'.  In the meantime, many businesses will simply be unable to make money, but still have to service debt, pay rents, pay employees...

So, do you hold your bets for a few more days/weeks/months, thinking there's probably another few trillion coming from the Fed and Congress or do you rationalize that you're already pretty lucky to be able to sell stuff at inflated prices and sit out the roller coaster ride?

If only bonds or real estate offered a viable alternative!  I'm sure there will be lots of great opportunities to buy stuff at reasonable prices at some point, I just hope I'm patient enough not to blow myself up in the meantime.  I really have no idea what a reasonable S&P500 level is until we get some idea of earnings, so if it falls, how do you know when it has hit the floor?

Exactly what I'm feeling.  All common sense is gone.

I cashed out about 25% of our total market holdings before the market dropped.  The writing on the wall was just way too clear about where the market was heading.  Then I watched the market tumble down and wished I had sold it all.  I've watched this insanely optimistic surge as prices rebound.  I couldn't stand it anymore and sold another 50+% today, so that now we are about 80% allocated to cash.  New contributions are still going into the market, but I want a lot of dry powder when the market realizes the full consequences of the pandemic.

The market behavior is completely irrational.  I don't care if the Fed is flooding the stagnating economy with cash.  The disease has been spreading even with the lockdowns and restrictions.  This re-opening is going to wake a lot of people up to the consequences of the disease as more people get infected and die.  Huge portions of the economy will not be the same for years - restaurants, travel, sports and entertainment, casinos - anything that requires a bunch of people to gather in one place.  The market was objectively overvalued before the coronavirus crash.  It's closer to fairly valued now if Covid-19 wasn't present.  With Covid-19 still spreading and the U.S. and global economic consequences not yet being felt, I'm convinced we're in a for very bumpy ride.  I just made a seven figure bet on this, so I hope I'm right...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 11:14:01 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 29, 2020, 10:58:49 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 06:20:20 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 04:51:04 PM

It really is a crazy situation to be in, one where an investor can't win.  If you want to get out, then you're missing out on what the Fed promises to be a free-for all buffet lunch for the market.  The Fed clearly said today that economic activity is too low, businesses need to be kept alive, and Congress has to get more money out to consumers. 

But if you stay invested, you know you are holding assets that are being propped up by issuing debt.  The government may be able to issue a lot of debt for a long time, but what if they can't?  It is common sense that EPS expansion can't go on forever - investors ultimately want to own companies that increase earnings over time.  In the US, the earnings come from consumers (or exports) and that's all gone in an unprecedented way.  No one has any idea what earnings will be or how long it will take for things to return to 'normal'.  In the meantime, many businesses will simply be unable to make money, but still have to service debt, pay rents, pay employees...

So, do you hold your bets for a few more days/weeks/months, thinking there's probably another few trillion coming from the Fed and Congress or do you rationalize that you're already pretty lucky to be able to sell stuff at inflated prices and sit out the roller coaster ride?

If only bonds or real estate offered a viable alternative!  I'm sure there will be lots of great opportunities to buy stuff at reasonable prices at some point, I just hope I'm patient enough not to blow myself up in the meantime.  I really have no idea what a reasonable S&P500 level is until we get some idea of earnings, so if it falls, how do you know when it has hit the floor?

Exactly what I'm feeling.  All common sense is gone.

I cashed out about 25% of our total market holdings before the market dropped.  The writing on the wall was just way too clear about where the market was heading.  Then I watched the market tumble down and wished I had sold it all.  I've watched this insanely optimistic surge as prices rebound.  I couldn't stand it anymore and sold another 50+% today, so that now we are about 80% allocated to cash.  New contributions are still going into the market, but I want a lot of dry powder when the market realizes the full consequences of the pandemic.

The market behavior is completely irrational.  I don't care if the Fed is flooding the stagnating economy with cash.  The disease has been spreading even with the lockdowns and restrictions.  This re-opening is going to wake a lot of people up to the consequences of the disease as more people get infected and die.  Huge portions of the economy will not be the same for years - restaurants, travel, sports and entertainment, casinos - anything that requires a bunch of people to gather in one place.  The market was objectively overvalued before the coronavirus crash.  It's closer to fairly valued now if Covid-19 wasn't present.  With Covid-19 still spreading and the U.S. and global economic consequences not yet being felt, I'm convinced we're in a for very bumpy ride.  I just made a seven figure bet on this, so I hope I'm right...

Very much in agreement.  I made a huge move to position for eventual FIRE back in February.   Previously I was well overweight in stock.  I highly considered moving more to safety yesterday with the irrational rally amongst horrible economic reports.  I feel even without the virus we are looking at a bleak economy for a long time. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 11:51:30 PM

Checking Mint we're at 2.3M and accounts are now under ten percent from FIRE goal, need about 200K.  A little over a week ago I needed 250K and at the market top I needed about 100K.  This is crazy in the current economy.   It's possible we'll hit our FIRE goalm of 2.5M in 2020 and people will lack food in the US simultaneously.  What a bizarre world we've entered and the growing distance between the have and have nots.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 30, 2020, 03:23:54 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 11:14:01 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 29, 2020, 10:58:49 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 06:20:20 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 04:51:04 PM

It really is a crazy situation to be in, one where an investor can't win.  If you want to get out, then you're missing out on what the Fed promises to be a free-for all buffet lunch for the market.  The Fed clearly said today that economic activity is too low, businesses need to be kept alive, and Congress has to get more money out to consumers. 

But if you stay invested, you know you are holding assets that are being propped up by issuing debt.  The government may be able to issue a lot of debt for a long time, but what if they can't?  It is common sense that EPS expansion can't go on forever - investors ultimately want to own companies that increase earnings over time.  In the US, the earnings come from consumers (or exports) and that's all gone in an unprecedented way.  No one has any idea what earnings will be or how long it will take for things to return to 'normal'.  In the meantime, many businesses will simply be unable to make money, but still have to service debt, pay rents, pay employees...

So, do you hold your bets for a few more days/weeks/months, thinking there's probably another few trillion coming from the Fed and Congress or do you rationalize that you're already pretty lucky to be able to sell stuff at inflated prices and sit out the roller coaster ride?

If only bonds or real estate offered a viable alternative!  I'm sure there will be lots of great opportunities to buy stuff at reasonable prices at some point, I just hope I'm patient enough not to blow myself up in the meantime.  I really have no idea what a reasonable S&P500 level is until we get some idea of earnings, so if it falls, how do you know when it has hit the floor?

Exactly what I'm feeling.  All common sense is gone.

I cashed out about 25% of our total market holdings before the market dropped.  The writing on the wall was just way too clear about where the market was heading.  Then I watched the market tumble down and wished I had sold it all.  I've watched this insanely optimistic surge as prices rebound.  I couldn't stand it anymore and sold another 50+% today, so that now we are about 80% allocated to cash.  New contributions are still going into the market, but I want a lot of dry powder when the market realizes the full consequences of the pandemic.

The market behavior is completely irrational.  I don't care if the Fed is flooding the stagnating economy with cash.  The disease has been spreading even with the lockdowns and restrictions.  This re-opening is going to wake a lot of people up to the consequences of the disease as more people get infected and die.  Huge portions of the economy will not be the same for years - restaurants, travel, sports and entertainment, casinos - anything that requires a bunch of people to gather in one place.  The market was objectively overvalued before the coronavirus crash.  It's closer to fairly valued now if Covid-19 wasn't present.  With Covid-19 still spreading and the U.S. and global economic consequences not yet being felt, I'm convinced we're in a for very bumpy ride.  I just made a seven figure bet on this, so I hope I'm right...

Very much in agreement.  I made a huge move to position for eventual FIRE back in February.   Previously I was well overweight in stock.  I highly considered moving more to safety yesterday with the irrational rally amongst horrible economic reports.  I feel even without the virus we are looking at a bleak economy for a long time.

I've gone round and round on this myself and have just come to the conclusion that The Fed can absorb the influx of $ its pumping into the economy because its the new norm and its a world wide problem.  PE's you can throw out the window. There really is nowhere else to put your money so I am holding more cash and in the camp that when the talking heads decide what earnings should be and there not that the markets will struggle BUT in 3-5 years will be much higher than we were. Only time will tell though....We have two Elephants in the room and the second one being oil. Love or hate oil is not the problem as much as its part in the economy and GDP. Need to work through this . But i also feel this Pandemic and these times are going to offer up new opportunities and shifts in the way we do things which will bring jobs back to take care of supply chains and just new technology etc.. that will propel us forward. Maybe i am being to optimistic but I still believe in out country. If we could stop the bickering that would really help things though!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 30, 2020, 05:58:55 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 30, 2020, 03:23:54 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 11:14:01 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 29, 2020, 10:58:49 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 06:20:20 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 04:51:04 PM

It really is a crazy situation to be in, one where an investor can't win.  If you want to get out, then you're missing out on what the Fed promises to be a free-for all buffet lunch for the market.  The Fed clearly said today that economic activity is too low, businesses need to be kept alive, and Congress has to get more money out to consumers. 

But if you stay invested, you know you are holding assets that are being propped up by issuing debt.  The government may be able to issue a lot of debt for a long time, but what if they can't?  It is common sense that EPS expansion can't go on forever - investors ultimately want to own companies that increase earnings over time.  In the US, the earnings come from consumers (or exports) and that's all gone in an unprecedented way.  No one has any idea what earnings will be or how long it will take for things to return to 'normal'.  In the meantime, many businesses will simply be unable to make money, but still have to service debt, pay rents, pay employees...

So, do you hold your bets for a few more days/weeks/months, thinking there's probably another few trillion coming from the Fed and Congress or do you rationalize that you're already pretty lucky to be able to sell stuff at inflated prices and sit out the roller coaster ride?

If only bonds or real estate offered a viable alternative!  I'm sure there will be lots of great opportunities to buy stuff at reasonable prices at some point, I just hope I'm patient enough not to blow myself up in the meantime.  I really have no idea what a reasonable S&P500 level is until we get some idea of earnings, so if it falls, how do you know when it has hit the floor?

Exactly what I'm feeling.  All common sense is gone.

I cashed out about 25% of our total market holdings before the market dropped.  The writing on the wall was just way too clear about where the market was heading.  Then I watched the market tumble down and wished I had sold it all.  I've watched this insanely optimistic surge as prices rebound.  I couldn't stand it anymore and sold another 50+% today, so that now we are about 80% allocated to cash.  New contributions are still going into the market, but I want a lot of dry powder when the market realizes the full consequences of the pandemic.

The market behavior is completely irrational.  I don't care if the Fed is flooding the stagnating economy with cash.  The disease has been spreading even with the lockdowns and restrictions.  This re-opening is going to wake a lot of people up to the consequences of the disease as more people get infected and die.  Huge portions of the economy will not be the same for years - restaurants, travel, sports and entertainment, casinos - anything that requires a bunch of people to gather in one place.  The market was objectively overvalued before the coronavirus crash.  It's closer to fairly valued now if Covid-19 wasn't present.  With Covid-19 still spreading and the U.S. and global economic consequences not yet being felt, I'm convinced we're in a for very bumpy ride.  I just made a seven figure bet on this, so I hope I'm right...

Very much in agreement.  I made a huge move to position for eventual FIRE back in February.   Previously I was well overweight in stock.  I highly considered moving more to safety yesterday with the irrational rally amongst horrible economic reports.  I feel even without the virus we are looking at a bleak economy for a long time.

I've gone round and round on this myself and have just come to the conclusion that The Fed can absorb the influx of $ its pumping into the economy because its the new norm and its a world wide problem.  PE's you can throw out the window. There really is nowhere else to put your money so I am holding more cash and in the camp that when the talking heads decide what earnings should be and there not that the markets will struggle BUT in 3-5 years will be much higher than we were. Only time will tell though....We have two Elephants in the room and the second one being oil. Love or hate oil is not the problem as much as its part in the economy and GDP. Need to work through this . But i also feel this Pandemic and these times are going to offer up new opportunities and shifts in the way we do things which will bring jobs back to take care of supply chains and just new technology etc.. that will propel us forward. Maybe i am being to optimistic but I still believe in out country. If we could stop the bickering that would really help things though!

Love your optimism.  In time it does work out.  Don't let the bickering get you down.  I don't want people in total agreement.  I only learn when people voice other options.  Love all you guys.   Best of luck investing and stay healthy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 30, 2020, 07:00:46 AM

This is why I'm glad we have 4 different sources of income (social security, rented farmland, rental houses and stocks/bonds) and don't require the stocks/bonds for normal living expenses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 30, 2020, 07:30:08 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 11:51:30 PM

Checking Mint we're at 2.3M and accounts are now under ten percent from FIRE goal, need about 200K.  A little over a week ago I needed 250K and at the market top I needed about 100K.  This is crazy in the current economy.   It's possible we'll hit our FIRE goalm of 2.5M in 2020 and people will lack food in the US simultaneously.  What a bizarre world we've entered and the growing distance between the have and have nots.

Let's be honest here: you want that extra bit of cash. You do not need it. Just a bit of tough love from your fan, Dicey.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 30, 2020, 07:51:14 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 30, 2020, 07:30:08 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 11:51:30 PM

Checking Mint we're at 2.3M and accounts are now under ten percent from FIRE goal, need about 200K.  A little over a week ago I needed 250K and at the market top I needed about 100K.  This is crazy in the current economy.   It's possible we'll hit our FIRE goalm of 2.5M in 2020 and people will lack food in the US simultaneously.  What a bizarre world we've entered and the growing distance between the have and have nots.

Let's be honest here: you want that extra bit of cash. You do not need it. Just a bit of tough love from your fan, Dicey.

I'm going to stop at 2.5 or was it 3.0??   No, no.  It's 2.5 I've got stuff to do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 30, 2020, 08:30:03 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 30, 2020, 03:23:54 AM

I've gone round and round on this myself and have just come to the conclusion that The Fed can absorb the influx of $ its pumping into the economy because its the new norm and its a world wide problem.  PE's you can throw out the window. There really is nowhere else to put your money so I am holding more cash and in the camp that when the talking heads decide what earnings should be and there not that the markets will struggle BUT in 3-5 years will be much higher than we were. Only time will tell though....We have two Elephants in the room and the second one being oil. Love or hate oil is not the problem as much as its part in the economy and GDP. Need to work through this . But i also feel this Pandemic and these times are going to offer up new opportunities and shifts in the way we do things which will bring jobs back to take care of supply chains and just new technology etc.. that will propel us forward. Maybe i am being to optimistic but I still believe in out country. If we could stop the bickering that would really help things though!

I won't keep beating the 'this is crazy' drum, but really had to get that off my chest yesterday as the market index soared (from an already high level) on historically bad news (and some unrealistic expectations about the country re-opening in May).  It was driving me bonkers and really making me want to sell, even though I'm at a comfortable AA.  As long as we don't churn as this thing works its way through, the folks in this thread should be in better shape than 90% of the US - just depending on how many lucky Mustachian-types keep their jobs and stay the course - depending on how long this drags out and how deeply the markets correct. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 30, 2020, 10:00:36 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 30, 2020, 08:30:03 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 30, 2020, 03:23:54 AM

I've gone round and round on this myself and have just come to the conclusion that The Fed can absorb the influx of $ its pumping into the economy because its the new norm and its a world wide problem.  PE's you can throw out the window. There really is nowhere else to put your money so I am holding more cash and in the camp that when the talking heads decide what earnings should be and there not that the markets will struggle BUT in 3-5 years will be much higher than we were. Only time will tell though....We have two Elephants in the room and the second one being oil. Love or hate oil is not the problem as much as its part in the economy and GDP. Need to work through this . But i also feel this Pandemic and these times are going to offer up new opportunities and shifts in the way we do things which will bring jobs back to take care of supply chains and just new technology etc.. that will propel us forward. Maybe i am being to optimistic but I still believe in out country. If we could stop the bickering that would really help things though!

I won't keep beating the 'this is crazy' drum, but really had to get that off my chest yesterday as the market index soared (from an already high level) on historically bad news (and some unrealistic expectations about the country re-opening in May).  It was driving me bonkers and really making me want to sell, even though I'm at a comfortable AA.  As long as we don't churn as this thing works its way through, the folks in this thread should be in better shape than 90% of the US - just depending on how many lucky Mustachian-types keep their jobs and stay the course - depending on how long this drags out and how deeply the markets correct.

Agreed!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on April 30, 2020, 12:13:57 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 04:51:04 PM

It really is a crazy situation to be in, one where an investor can't win.  If you want to get out, then you're missing out on what the Fed promises to be a free-for all buffet lunch for the market.  The Fed clearly said today that economic activity is too low, businesses need to be kept alive, and Congress has to get more money out to consumers. 

But if you stay invested, you know you are holding assets that are being propped up by issuing debt.  The government may be able to issue a lot of debt for a long time, but what if they can't?  It is common sense that EPS expansion can't go on forever - investors ultimately want to own companies that increase earnings over time.  In the US, the earnings come from consumers (or exports) and that's all gone in an unprecedented way.  No one has any idea what earnings will be or how long it will take for things to return to 'normal'.  In the meantime, many businesses will simply be unable to make money, but still have to service debt, pay rents, pay employees...

So, do you hold your bets for a few more days/weeks/months, thinking there's probably another few trillion coming from the Fed and Congress or do you rationalize that you're already pretty lucky to be able to sell stuff at inflated prices and sit out the roller coaster ride?

If only bonds or real estate offered a viable alternative!  I'm sure there will be lots of great opportunities to buy stuff at reasonable prices at some point, I just hope I'm patient enough not to blow myself up in the meantime.  I really have no idea what a reasonable S&P500 level is until we get some idea of earnings, so if it falls, how do you know when it has hit the floor?

Yeah, but look at my table - we didn't have EPS expansion in 2019 and 2018 EPS growth was solely attributed to the tax reform/cuts.   And that was before all this, so multiple expansion happened, got overvalued, then this.   It makes no sense.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 30, 2020, 02:22:28 PM

Ok.... slowly I am getting more convinced to get off my ass and sell something.

Let me have another whiskey and I’ll think about it tomorrow...l

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 01, 2020, 04:49:01 AM

Yesterday after writing here i so wanted to take a bit off the table and increase my cash but shit I didnt. Oh well , would of been a small amount anyhow. Let it ride. No biggie. Sure i will be getting another opportunity to buy things on sale. Just dont feel the S&P should be over 2800 and that is my feeling of the Current top for now so feels lofty.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 01, 2020, 05:33:57 AM

With all this talk about cashing out, I got curious about my own cash position. So I just added up all of the cash we have stashed away in various savings and money market accounts - just discovered that it's over a million. I reckon that ought to be ok :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on May 01, 2020, 07:42:03 AM

A million in cash?

Invest some of that, already!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 01, 2020, 08:11:15 AM

A million in cash?.. I'm wondering how think my wallet would be with all that..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 01, 2020, 08:57:22 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2020, 08:11:15 AM

A million in cash?.. I'm wondering how think my wallet would be with all that..:)

Not much different from when it was lower - we just can't think of ways to spend the money :-)

We barely travel, my happiness comes from playing with my model trains. The main planned expenses
we have planned are some home renovation and college for the younger kid.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 01, 2020, 08:58:37 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on May 01, 2020, 07:42:03 AM

A million in cash?

Invest some of that, already!

This cash is about 1/4th of our net worth - the rest is in stocks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 01, 2020, 09:29:05 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2020, 08:11:15 AM

A million in cash?.. I'm wondering how think my wallet would be with all that..:)

You still have the F-250?  Fill the bed.  That's a metric ton.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 01, 2020, 09:55:50 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 01, 2020, 09:29:05 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2020, 08:11:15 AM

A million in cash?.. I'm wondering how think my wallet would be with all that..:)

You still have the F-250?  Fill the bed.  That's a metric ton.

Damn!.. Brings a new vision of a "shit-ton" of money..

Yes we still have our now 31 year old truck that we paid a whole $1400 for..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on May 01, 2020, 11:04:38 AM

We sold off a big chunk on Wednesday. Actually sold for a little higher than expected and made an extra $20,000. Now sitting on what I guess has been defined above as a shit-ton of money and thinking through our strategy for re-investing. I’ll let you know how this goes...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 01, 2020, 11:55:10 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on May 01, 2020, 11:04:38 AM

We sold off a big chunk on Wednesday. Actually sold for a little higher than expected and made an extra $20,000. Now sitting on what I guess has been defined above as a shit-ton of money and thinking through our strategy for re-investing. I’ll let you know how this goes...

I was ready to bail big on Wednesday.  I'm having some regret that I didn't now.  This bear cycle will run its course just like they all do in time.  I'd have been too low in stock exposure had I made that move.  If I had sold I'd have a lot more confidence in planning to FIRE soon.  If the huge drop comes that I fear is coming I'll just work longer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 01, 2020, 01:17:31 PM

I didn't sell any equities, and today I bought a little bit more.

Also, I'm going to be adding to the after tax portion of my individual 401k plan which I will roll over into the roth 401k account.

The government is doing the right thing in providing disaster relief, and in fact needs to do more to support states and local governments.

Investors are paying our federal government to hold their money, the real rate of return for inflation protected tips is something like -.05%

When capitalism fails the federal governments around the world need to step up and provide support to workers and families and local governments as well as insure that industries don't collapse and that financial markets don't seize up.

I'm so thankful that we have Jerome Powell as the Fed Reserve Chair, and that some of the crank choices Trump has had for the fed governors have not been allowed to be confirmed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on May 01, 2020, 01:30:29 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 01, 2020, 08:57:22 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2020, 08:11:15 AM

A million in cash?.. I'm wondering how think my wallet would be with all that..:)

Not much different from when it was lower - we just can't think of ways to spend the money :-)

We barely travel, my happiness comes from playing with my model trains. The main planned expenses
we have planned are some home renovation and college for the younger kid.

Now I get it.

My oldest has one more class next Thursday (online) and graduates.  Starts his job about a week later.  I calculate college costs in cars.  He's a mid level Lamborghini Huracan.  No....really.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on May 01, 2020, 01:53:42 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on May 01, 2020, 01:30:29 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 01, 2020, 08:57:22 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2020, 08:11:15 AM

A million in cash?.. I'm wondering how think my wallet would be with all that..:)

Not much different from when it was lower - we just can't think of ways to spend the money :-)

We barely travel, my happiness comes from playing with my model trains. The main planned expenses
we have planned are some home renovation and college for the younger kid.

Now I get it.

My oldest has one more class next Thursday (online) and graduates.  Starts his job about a week later.  I calculate college costs in cars.  He's a mid level Lamborghini Huracan.  No....really.

Heh, I thought $1M was ridiculous, but when you include the 529s for my 3 kids on top of my portfolio cash I guess not really...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 01, 2020, 02:18:46 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on May 01, 2020, 01:30:29 PM

Now I get it.

My oldest has one more class next Thursday (online) and graduates.  Starts his job about a week later.  I calculate college costs in cars.  He's a mid level Lamborghini Huracan.  No....really.

Heh - that's right on the mark! Depending on which school she decides to go to, it could be anywhere between a Mercedes S class and a Rolls Royce Ghost :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 02, 2020, 03:41:34 PM

Listening to Warren Buffet's Berkshire Hathaway Annual Shareholders Meeting 2020.

I'm very encouraged at what he says.

https://finance.yahoo.com/video/berkshire-hathaway-annual-shareholders-meeting-154143373.html

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 02, 2020, 07:06:10 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2020, 08:11:15 AM

A million in cash?.. I'm wondering how think my wallet would be with all that..:)

You'd have to be sure to have two wallets, one for each cheek, or you'd hurt your back...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 02, 2020, 07:23:51 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 29, 2020, 10:58:49 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 06:20:20 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 04:51:04 PM

It really is a crazy situation to be in, one where an investor can't win.  If you want to get out, then you're missing out on what the Fed promises to be a free-for all buffet lunch for the market.  The Fed clearly said today that economic activity is too low, businesses need to be kept alive, and Congress has to get more money out to consumers. 

But if you stay invested, you know you are holding assets that are being propped up by issuing debt.  The government may be able to issue a lot of debt for a long time, but what if they can't?  It is common sense that EPS expansion can't go on forever - investors ultimately want to own companies that increase earnings over time.  In the US, the earnings come from consumers (or exports) and that's all gone in an unprecedented way.  No one has any idea what earnings will be or how long it will take for things to return to 'normal'.  In the meantime, many businesses will simply be unable to make money, but still have to service debt, pay rents, pay employees...

So, do you hold your bets for a few more days/weeks/months, thinking there's probably another few trillion coming from the Fed and Congress or do you rationalize that you're already pretty lucky to be able to sell stuff at inflated prices and sit out the roller coaster ride?

If only bonds or real estate offered a viable alternative!  I'm sure there will be lots of great opportunities to buy stuff at reasonable prices at some point, I just hope I'm patient enough not to blow myself up in the meantime.  I really have no idea what a reasonable S&P500 level is until we get some idea of earnings, so if it falls, how do you know when it has hit the floor?

Exactly what I'm feeling.  All common sense is gone.

I cashed out about 25% of our total market holdings before the market dropped.  The writing on the wall was just way too clear about where the market was heading.  Then I watched the market tumble down and wished I had sold it all.  I've watched this insanely optimistic surge as prices rebound.  I couldn't stand it anymore and sold another 50+% today, so that now we are about 80% allocated to cash.  New contributions are still going into the market, but I want a lot of dry powder when the market realizes the full consequences of the pandemic.

The market behavior is completely irrational.  I don't care if the Fed is flooding the stagnating economy with cash.  The disease has been spreading even with the lockdowns and restrictions.  This re-opening is going to wake a lot of people up to the consequences of the disease as more people get infected and die.  Huge portions of the economy will not be the same for years - restaurants, travel, sports and entertainment, casinos - anything that requires a bunch of people to gather in one place.  The market was objectively overvalued before the coronavirus crash.  It's closer to fairly valued now if Covid-19 wasn't present.  With Covid-19 still spreading and the U.S. and global economic consequences not yet being felt, I'm convinced we're in a for very bumpy ride.  I just made a seven figure bet on this, so I hope I'm right...

This bouncing of the market on what could hardly be called good news for the economy is driving me nuts.  The whole world is shut down to some degree or other.  Ok, New Zealand might reopen soon.  That won't exactly kick start the world economy.   It just feels like my money is in the hands of crazy people.  Why would the market go down, then up, up, and up some more? Up?  Really?  Why?  The world economy is in the toilet, we just added a huge amount of national debt,  and it's likely to get worse before it gets better.  I'm completely baffled.   It makes no sense to me.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 02, 2020, 08:29:52 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 02, 2020, 07:06:10 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2020, 08:11:15 AM

A million in cash?.. I'm wondering how think my wallet would be with all that..:)

You'd have to be sure to have two wallets, one for each cheek, or you'd hurt your back...

Everybody knows that you're supposed to carry it in a briefcase that's handcuffed to your wrist, so the bad guy will have to cut your wrist off to get your money.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 03, 2020, 11:45:10 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 02, 2020, 07:23:51 PM

- SNIP -

This bouncing of the market on what could hardly be called good news for the economy is driving me nuts.  The whole world is shut down to some degree or other.  Ok, New Zealand might reopen soon.  That won't exactly kick start the world economy.   It just feels like my money is in the hands of crazy people.  Why would the market go down, then up, up, and up some more? Up?  Really?  Why?  The world economy is in the toilet, we just added a huge amount of national debt,  and it's likely to get worse before it gets better.  I'm completely baffled.   It makes no sense to me.

I'm jealous of you.  I don't understand why the market does what it does in "normal" times. 

This virus situation has been compared to a war situation.  All the spending done for wars have sometimes been an economic boost in the past.  Is it possible that the fear uncertainty and doubt this thing has brought about will cause some sort of mass spending like a "real" war situation?  I wonder if there will be some sort of new physical infrastructure changes to preclude this situation for future pandemics.  I am not sure what they would be.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 03, 2020, 12:23:06 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 02, 2020, 08:29:52 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 02, 2020, 07:06:10 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 01, 2020, 08:11:15 AM

A million in cash?.. I'm wondering how think my wallet would be with all that..:)

You'd have to be sure to have two wallets, one for each cheek, or you'd hurt your back...

Everybody knows that you're supposed to carry it in a briefcase that's handcuffed to your wrist, so the bad guy will have to cut your wrist off to get your money.  ;)

Reminds of a scene from my all time fav movie called "Snatch". Absolutely brilliant!.. Gruesome but brilliant..:)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snatch_(film)

I never realised just how great of an actor Brad Pitt is until I saw this!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 03, 2020, 05:44:20 PM

I read this sad story about the journalist Ray Suarez who writes a personal article about how in his early 60's, he found he's not doing so well financially, despite a decades long prominent career.

One thing that struck me in the article was how Suarez says he's facing $2,800 health insurance bills which he's not sure he can afford to pay.
I know that the ACA allows you to change the amount you have to pay if you report a change in income that is lower.

"I clung to the middle class as I aged. The pandemic pulled me under."
 https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/04/30/i-clung-middle-class-i-aged-pandemic-pulled-me-under/

[MOD EDIT: Copy/paste of article removed. Click link above. Cheers!]

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on May 03, 2020, 05:50:33 PM

What a misogynist! Poor old men! What about the many more poorer old women?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 03, 2020, 09:20:11 PM

Apart from misogyny, it seems Mr Suarez has done what most other Americans do.. But yet expected a different result?

In other words he's spent everything (or saved very little) and expected to work till 65.

Once again another sorry statistic that demonstrates the need to save a lot more than you think you'll need and save it sooner rather than later.

sad..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on May 04, 2020, 06:56:24 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on May 02, 2020, 03:41:34 PM

Listening to Warren Buffet's Berkshire Hathaway Annual Shareholders Meeting 2020.

I'm very encouraged at what he says.

What did you find encouraging?

Warren is still going strong. Went on for about 4 hours. But...he’s conserving cash. A net seller in April. Sold all the airline stocks at a loss.
He’s his usual long-term optimistic self, but seemed very pessimistic for the short-term. “Never bet AGAINST America”, but has 35% of market cap in cash...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on May 04, 2020, 08:47:36 AM

Quote from: AdrianC on May 04, 2020, 06:56:24 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on May 02, 2020, 03:41:34 PM

Listening to Warren Buffet's Berkshire Hathaway Annual Shareholders Meeting 2020.

I'm very encouraged at what he says.

What did you find encouraging?

Warren is still going strong. Went on for about 4 hours. But...he’s conserving cash. A net seller in April. Sold all the airline stocks at a loss.
He’s his usual long-term optimistic self, but seemed very pessimistic for the short-term. “Never bet AGAINST America”, but has 35% of market cap in cash...

That's how I heard it.   When you are comparing current environment to the civil war or could be worse than great depression, doesn't sound optimistic to me.    Sure America will probably be strong over the long term, but sometimes short term matters.  The doctors at the hospital will surely be able to treat you for your life ending injuries...…just one problem, the hospital is 30 minutes away and you only have 10 minutes left :(

Aside from that, actions speak loudly - selling and not buying as the market crashed definitely seems atypical for him.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: desk_jockey on May 04, 2020, 10:17:39 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on May 04, 2020, 08:47:36 AM

Aside from that, actions speak loudly - selling and not buying as the market crashed definitely seems atypical for him.

Has BH sold substantially except for the airline stocks?   Buffet is buy and hold, but has often exited individual stocks when there were major changes to their situations.  I’m not concerned with him selling all his airline holdings as he has said he has no way of measuring their value in this new environment (I agree profusely).  If he is exiting stocks in a lot of different industries then I would be more worried.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 05, 2020, 03:08:56 AM

Quote from: desk_jockey on May 04, 2020, 10:17:39 PM

Has BH sold substantially except for the airline stocks?   Buffet is buy and hold, but has often exited individual stocks when there were major changes to their situations.  I’m not concerned with him selling all his airline holdings as he has said he has no way of measuring their value in this new environment (I agree profusely).  If he is exiting stocks in a lot of different industries then I would be more worried.

Then again, he is 89 year old and that may also play a role in his current investment strategy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on May 05, 2020, 09:29:14 AM

Quote from: desk_jockey on May 04, 2020, 10:17:39 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on May 04, 2020, 08:47:36 AM

Aside from that, actions speak loudly - selling and not buying as the market crashed definitely seems atypical for him.

Has BH sold substantially except for the airline stocks?   Buffet is buy and hold, but has often exited individual stocks when there were major changes to their situations.  I’m not concerned with him selling all his airline holdings as he has said he has no way of measuring their value in this new environment (I agree profusely).  If he is exiting stocks in a lot of different industries then I would be more worried.

That's a fair point, I don't think Berkshire was mass selling out of equities but not buying either.  Still as previous poster said Berkshire has higher cash levels than typical.   Regardless, his verbal comments very much said uncertainty and risk currently is not good, but 50 years from now it will be fine so don't bet against America.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 05, 2020, 09:36:38 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on May 03, 2020, 05:44:20 PM

I read this sad story about the journalist Ray Suarez who writes a personal article about how in his early 60's, he found he's not doing so well financially, despite a decades long prominent career.

One thing that struck me in the article was how Suarez says he's facing $2,800 health insurance bills which he's not sure he can afford to pay.
I know that the ACA allows you to change the amount you have to pay if you report a change in income that is lower.

"I clung to the middle class as I aged. The pandemic pulled me under."
 https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/04/30/i-clung-middle-class-i-aged-pandemic-pulled-me-under/

[MOD EDIT: Copy/paste of article removed. Click link above. Cheers!]

One of the replies to his article sums it up for me.  I'll paraphrase so the mods don't have to edit too long of a quote:  "You've paid off a 700ishK house, have a 401K and can take Social Security early.  Move to some where less expensive and live frugally.  You're better off than most..."

He has choices, he just doesn't like them.   

I just had my umpteenth conversation with a friend in a similar boat... they run an Airbnb (now empty instead of at peak occupancy) and have mismanaged their money for decades.   They're supporting 2 kids in college, drive fancy cars, have a vacation house, live in a resort area,  and borrow to fund their lifestyle.  They currently owe 80K+ in credit card bills (0 percent balance transfers about to come due), and have a huge, completely tapped out equity line.  Any suggestions to cut back are always met with "oh no, I can't do that...."  They have a NW of about 1M in RE, and view that as living money just waiting to be tapped into somehow.  They've been living like this for decades, refinancing and borrowing over and over again.    The only thing I wonder is if they can borrow and borrow some more until they die, or will this whole thing come crashing down?   I see it as a race to the finish. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on May 05, 2020, 09:51:28 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 05, 2020, 09:36:38 AM

One of the replies to his article sums it up for me.  I'll paraphrase so the mods don't have to edit too long of a quote:  "You've paid off a 700ishK house, have a 401K and can take Social Security early.  Move to some where less expensive and live frugally.  You're better off than most..."

He has choices, he just doesn't like them.   

I just had my umpteenth conversation with a friend in a similar boat... they run an Airbnb (now empty instead of at peak occupancy) and have mismanaged their money for decades.   They're supporting 2 kids in college, drive fancy cars, have a vacation house, live in a resort area,  and borrow to fund their lifestyle.  They currently owe 80K+ in credit card bills (0 percent balance transfers about to come due), and have a huge, completely tapped out equity line.  Any suggestions to cut back are always met with "oh no, I can't do that...."  They have a NW of about 1M in RE, and view that as living money just waiting to be tapped into somehow.  They've been living like this for decades, refinancing and borrowing over and over again.    The only thing I wonder is if they can borrow and borrow some more until they die, or will this whole thing come crashing down?   I see it as a race to the finish.

There are so many people like this, to some extent I am jealous of the ability to live the edge in a somewhat delusional way.  Even when the shit hits the fan and all is lost, they just don't pay or do BK or just work forever.  I can't live like that.   

I do fear (not real fear, but like ironic type fear) being one of these stories in the future where I am like "I don't know what went wrong, I was so responsible my whole life and now what do I do."  And a comment like yours goes something like "He FIRE'd in his 40's so how responsible could he have been, he just made bad choices and didn't want to work."  It would be true that I don't want to work though.  haha

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 05, 2020, 10:30:21 AM

Similarly I get the sense that perhaps I'm being way too smug to have retired early. I mean, what makes me think I've got this poverty in retirement thing covered?

Surely I should have worked till 65 and saved up a "proper" stash!..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 05, 2020, 12:35:29 PM

I've been bored staying at home & the market is too crazy to watch, so I've been shopping for boats.  DW always dreamt of living at the coast, but I always said no because rising tides & hurricanes.  The threat of another 4 years of Trump has me looking for a ways to make an exit from the US, at least part-time, so that's where the boat idea came in. 


I grew up on a lake, so have always been around small boats, but don't know much about ocean going boats that are large enough to live and travel on.  I understand the basics about the different types of boats & am leaning towards a monohull sailboat.  Powerboats are easier to pilot, but are dead in the water without fuel.  Catamarans are fast but a PITA to park. 


I figured bigger is roomier & safer at sea, but obviously cost more to purchase, park, and maintain.  I figure we'd sell a house, so thought I'd use about 1/3 of the home value as a rough starting price for boat shopping, so approx $400K.  I started scanning the Yachtworld.com used listings, with the filters set sort of wide ranges; price $250-$550K and length 45-65 feet, to get an idea of the market. 


After a few enjoyable evenings of browsing I've looked at all kinds of boats.  I recently found a smaller boat, a Sirius 40 DS, that has a unique layout that gives it a lot more usable living space than you'd expect in a 40'.  Instead of walking down into the galley, there is a large salon/pilothouse/galley area that's level with the aft cockpit deck outside where you steer.  That leaves the entire lower level for bedrooms, bathrooms, storage space, etc.  (I'm sure I'm not explaining it very well, so here's a video link [size=78%]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMcxA5mDPwg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMcxA5mDPwg)[/size] ) 


I was hoping to find a deal on a used one, but there weren't any listed.  New ones weren't as expensive as I'd expected, they start around $300K, so new wouldn't be out of the budget.  I'll have to do a lot more shopping & comparing (and "probably" should learn to sail!) before buying anything.  But I'm enjoying reading & dreaming about it all.


Do any of you have boating experience, advice, or stories to share? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on May 05, 2020, 12:58:38 PM

A boat is a hole in the water that you pour money into.

A relative has an ocean going catamaran. It’s always being repaired. In fact, most boats are always being repaired. The first six or more months that he had it, it was being repaired. It then spent a month sailing oceans. It then spent six months being repaired. It then spent four months sailing. And six months being repaired...

They really enjoy sailing it. They have spent time sailing from tropical island to tropical island, snorkeling, seeing things that you can’t see if you don’t have your own private boat. They have also spent many months in harbours where they didn’t want to be while the boat was being fixed. Remote tropical islands don’t tend to have the facilities you need to maintain boats. Boat anchorage fees tend to be what the traffic can bear.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 05, 2020, 01:37:02 PM

Quote from: deborah on May 05, 2020, 12:58:38 PM

A boat is a hole in the water that you pour money into.

A relative has an ocean going catamaran. It’s always being repaired. In fact, most boats are always being repaired. The first six or more months that he had it, it was being repaired. It then spent a month sailing oceans. It then spent six months being repaired. It then spent four months sailing. And six months being repaired...

They really enjoy sailing it. They have spent time sailing from tropical island to tropical island, snorkeling, seeing things that you can’t see if you don’t have your own private boat. They have also spent many months in harbours where they didn’t want to be while the boat was being fixed. Remote tropical islands don’t tend to have the facilities you need to maintain boats. Boat anchorage fees tend to be what the traffic can bear.

I forgot about that part...  :(



I wonder why they break down so much?  I guess there's a lot of stuff that can go wrong, electrical, mechanical, rigging & sails, kitchen & bath, A/C & heat, plumbing, & stuff I can't even think of.  But if you only sail to nice places & have plenty of alcohol stocked, at least you're in a good place to be stuck. 


Maybe new boats come with good warranties?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 05, 2020, 01:45:05 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 05, 2020, 12:35:29 PM

After a few enjoyable evenings of browsing I've looked at all kinds of boats.  I recently found a smaller boat, a Sirius 40 DS, that has a unique layout that gives it a lot more usable living space than you'd expect in a 40'.  Instead of walking down into the galley, there is a large salon/pilothouse/galley area that's level with the aft cockpit deck outside where you steer.  That leaves the entire lower level for bedrooms, bathrooms, storage space, etc.  (I'm sure I'm not explaining it very well, so here's a video link [size=78%]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMcxA5mDPwg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMcxA5mDPwg)[/size] ) 

I was hoping to find a deal on a used one, but there weren't any listed.  New ones weren't as expensive as I'd expected, they start around $300K, so new wouldn't be out of the budget.  I'll have to do a lot more shopping & comparing (and "probably" should learn to sail!) before buying anything.  But I'm enjoying reading & dreaming about it all.

Do any of you have boating experience, advice, or stories to share?

I am a landlubber to my core, but damn, this is amazing!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on May 05, 2020, 02:25:39 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 05, 2020, 01:37:02 PM

Quote from: deborah on May 05, 2020, 12:58:38 PM

A boat is a hole in the water that you pour money into.

A relative has an ocean going catamaran. It’s always being repaired. In fact, most boats are always being repaired. The first six or more months that he had it, it was being repaired. It then spent a month sailing oceans. It then spent six months being repaired. It then spent four months sailing. And six months being repaired...

They really enjoy sailing it. They have spent time sailing from tropical island to tropical island, snorkeling, seeing things that you can’t see if you don’t have your own private boat. They have also spent many months in harbours where they didn’t want to be while the boat was being fixed. Remote tropical islands don’t tend to have the facilities you need to maintain boats. Boat anchorage fees tend to be what the traffic can bear.

I forgot about that part...  :(



I wonder why they break down so much?  I guess there's a lot of stuff that can go wrong, electrical, mechanical, rigging & sails, kitchen & bath, A/C & heat, plumbing, & stuff I can't even think of.  But if you only sail to nice places & have plenty of alcohol stocked, at least you're in a good place to be stuck. 


Maybe new boats come with good warranties?

Salt water mostly.   Also, sun dry's things out and bad fuel whether from the providers bad tanks or condensation/water in your own can foul the engine components.  Electronics short out or go bad (again due to moisture)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 05, 2020, 02:27:44 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 05, 2020, 12:35:29 PM

I've been bored staying at home & the market is too crazy to watch, so I've been shopping for boats.
Do any of you have boating experience, advice, or stories to share?

Shortly before the Covid lockdown, we were on safari in Africa, and seated in our group was a couple-- a sophisticated looking man in his 60's or more, and his newlywed Thai wife that looked about 25 or 30 and didn't speak much English. My intrigue radar honed in.   We ended up hitting it off with these two, and his story was fascinating.  He was/is a captain.  They live on a boat (yacht looking to me) and he's been traveling around the world for 20+ years.  More than 20 years!  He's living his dream! He had grown children and an ex-wife in North America, but loves sailing.  He and his new wife will sail to a port, then get out and go explore the land in a rented car.  Or fly somewhere from port and kick around for a while, like they were doing in Africa.      For work, he occasionally moves fancy boats from harbor to harbor for wealthy people.  His next gig was to sail someone's boat from Thailand to Hong Kong for it's owner.  He says he's wrapping up his travels in another few years.   We were invited, and may go when the lockdown is over, to Asia to meet up with them for an adventure. 

But if I had any advice, it would be to literally and figuratively "test the waters" before you sell everything and hit the point of no return.   Maybe go rent a boat in Greece.  They've got a whole infrastructure of boat rentals for people whose dream is to sail the Greek Islands.   Rent one for a month and see if you like it.  Then, if you do, sell the house and go for it.   I've told the story on this thread about a couple from the Midwest that we met bicycling in Europe.  They sold their house and bought one in France... living the dream.  We met them about a year later and they hated it and were ready to go back home. But now they  had no home to go back to and much diminished resources. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 05, 2020, 05:20:59 PM

A relatively short walk from my home is a marina.  Near the marina is a bar.  It has pictures of the local boats posted all over and witty sayings.  One comes to mind:

These are the two happiest days of any boat owner:

The day he buys it.
The day he sells it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 05, 2020, 07:58:10 PM

This is probably unfounded but my biggest fear would be pirates!

The thought of being anchoured off an island and approached by a group of guys with AK47's in the middle of the night is not exactly my idea of fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: marty998 on May 05, 2020, 08:39:18 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 05, 2020, 05:20:59 PM

A relatively short walk from my home is a marina.  Near the marina is a bar.  It has pictures of the local boats posted all over and witty sayings.  One comes to mind:

These are the two happiest days of any boat owner:

The day he buys it.
The day he sells it.

It's funny how I never hear about women buying boats. Perhaps they really are better at avoiding expensive toys.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 05, 2020, 10:29:05 PM

Quote from: marty998 on May 05, 2020, 08:39:18 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 05, 2020, 05:20:59 PM

A relatively short walk from my home is a marina.  Near the marina is a bar.  It has pictures of the local boats posted all over and witty sayings.  One comes to mind:

These are the two happiest days of any boat owner:

The day he buys it.
The day he sells it.

It's funny how I never hear about women buying boats. Perhaps they really are better at avoiding expensive toys.

I've known a few who've bought airplanes though. Two of them were high performance birds and one was a co-builder with her Husband.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 06, 2020, 06:58:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 05, 2020, 10:29:05 PM

Quote from: marty998 on May 05, 2020, 08:39:18 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 05, 2020, 05:20:59 PM

A relatively short walk from my home is a marina.  Near the marina is a bar.  It has pictures of the local boats posted all over and witty sayings.  One comes to mind:

These are the two happiest days of any boat owner:

The day he buys it.
The day he sells it.

It's funny how I never hear about women buying boats. Perhaps they really are better at avoiding expensive toys.

I've known a few who've bought airplanes though. Two of them were high performance birds and one was a co-builder with her Husband.

There's plenty of ladies buying horses. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 06, 2020, 07:12:49 AM

Hmmmm,  hmmmmm.  Maybe this buyin' a boat thing makes sense.  I'll bet being a pirate has a better return than I'll get with the 4 percent rule.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 06, 2020, 07:48:02 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 06, 2020, 07:12:49 AM

Hmmmm,  hmmmmm.  Maybe this buyin' a boat thing makes sense.  I'll bet being a pirate has a better return than I'll get with the 4 percent rule.

Longevity is much shorter so you won't need to save as much either!    Double win!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 06, 2020, 08:49:05 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 05, 2020, 07:58:10 PM

This is probably unfounded but my biggest fear would be pirates!

The thought of being anchoured off an island and approached by a group of guys with AK47's in the middle of the night is not exactly my idea of fun.

100% agree.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on May 06, 2020, 10:57:41 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 05, 2020, 07:58:10 PM

This is probably unfounded but my biggest fear would be pirates!

The thought of being anchoured off an island and approached by a group of guys with AK47's in the middle of the night is not exactly my idea of fun.

Submarine (https://www.migaloo-submarines.com/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 06, 2020, 11:34:55 AM

Very imaginative website..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dogboyslim on May 06, 2020, 12:04:07 PM

There is no shortage of youtube channels about boats, many of them cover costs.  Marina fees are exorbitant, especially in popular locations.  Pirates are mostly in known locations also so can be avoided in the Caribbean, but no guarantees.

Boats are always breaking because they are exposed to water, UV rays, and constant forces from wave action.  Things are crammed into tiny, hard to reach locations, and getting parts is a challenge.  Sailboats also have a lot of lines that fray, tangle and have stress of use.  Standing rigging pulls hard on the chain-plates, so you have to constantly check tension and any hull joints to be sure they stay water tight.  Through-hull fittings are scary, and if they break you sink.  Any leaks into the fuel system and you damage the engine.

If you buy new, know that it won't include the cost of radios and nav equipment.  The boat mentioned is made in Europe, so if you want used, look over there.  Also, 40 ft isn't small (until you are stuck in the middle of a storm on open water with no escape).

Basically, before you do this, I encourage you to join a crew on a passage.  Watch what breaks, how it has to be fixed and make sure you enjoy it.

Personally I'd love it.  Always having a project, freedom to go where you want, and minimal interaction with others unless you want it.  But it is not a sit back and relax lifestyle by any stretch.

General rule of thumb, plan to spend 10-20% of the purchase price on annual operating expenses.

A Few channels I like are sailing soulianis (mostly because I almost purchased a Tartan 37 and love seeing what they are doing to it), Chase the Story (they purchase a new catamaran and sail it from europe to the US, good to see how even new boats have issues), some of the earlier stuff from sailing lavagabond (more recently they are on a sponsored catamaran, the early episodes are more what it would be like for normal people without sponsors), and Wicked Salty.  They had a boat sink due to a thru-hull fitting.

Best of luck!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 06, 2020, 08:26:05 PM

I've had Catamaran fever off and on for years.  Just last week I had to fight through it when a Lagoon 440 became available in Maryland.  I'd mentally justified the $330K purchase, refit and annual upkeep.  I got over it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 06, 2020, 09:48:57 PM

Is it out of mind crazy to consider building your own?  I'll bet there's a huge markup on the new ones.  If you are retired, you've got time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 06, 2020, 10:07:22 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 06, 2020, 09:48:57 PM

Is it out of mind crazy to consider building your own?  I'll bet there's a huge markup on the new ones.  If you are retired, you've got time.

I was hoping to buy one from you after you become a pirate.  It would take you forever to build one. 


But if you really want to build one I found a free boat building school for you.  [size=78%]https://www.sirius-werft.de/wpsirius/de/die-werft/ausbildung/ (https://www.sirius-werft.de/wpsirius/de/die-werft/ausbildung/)[/size]   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on May 06, 2020, 11:06:30 PM

Quote from: PathtoFIRE on May 06, 2020, 10:57:41 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 05, 2020, 07:58:10 PM

This is probably unfounded but my biggest fear would be pirates!

The thought of being anchoured off an island and approached by a group of guys with AK47's in the middle of the night is not exactly my idea of fun.

Submarine (https://www.migaloo-submarines.com/)

I once coveted a submarine (https://misternizz.wordpress.com/2011/07/28/my-obsession-with-acquiring-a-polaris-submarine/), but eventually moved on from that phase...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: One on May 07, 2020, 12:49:59 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 02, 2020, 07:23:51 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 29, 2020, 10:58:49 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 06:20:20 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 04:51:04 PM

It really is a crazy situation to be in, one where an investor can't win.  If you want to get out, then you're missing out on what the Fed promises to be a free-for all buffet lunch for the market.  The Fed clearly said today that economic activity is too low, businesses need to be kept alive, and Congress has to get more money out to consumers. 

But if you stay invested, you know you are holding assets that are being propped up by issuing debt.  The government may be able to issue a lot of debt for a long time, but what if they can't?  It is common sense that EPS expansion can't go on forever - investors ultimately want to own companies that increase earnings over time.  In the US, the earnings come from consumers (or exports) and that's all gone in an unprecedented way.  No one has any idea what earnings will be or how long it will take for things to return to 'normal'.  In the meantime, many businesses will simply be unable to make money, but still have to service debt, pay rents, pay employees...

So, do you hold your bets for a few more days/weeks/months, thinking there's probably another few trillion coming from the Fed and Congress or do you rationalize that you're already pretty lucky to be able to sell stuff at inflated prices and sit out the roller coaster ride?

If only bonds or real estate offered a viable alternative!  I'm sure there will be lots of great opportunities to buy stuff at reasonable prices at some point, I just hope I'm patient enough not to blow myself up in the meantime.  I really have no idea what a reasonable S&P500 level is until we get some idea of earnings, so if it falls, how do you know when it has hit the floor?

Exactly what I'm feeling.  All common sense is gone.

I cashed out about 25% of our total market holdings before the market dropped.  The writing on the wall was just way too clear about where the market was heading.  Then I watched the market tumble down and wished I had sold it all.  I've watched this insanely optimistic surge as prices rebound.  I couldn't stand it anymore and sold another 50+% today, so that now we are about 80% allocated to cash.  New contributions are still going into the market, but I want a lot of dry powder when the market realizes the full consequences of the pandemic.

The market behavior is completely irrational.  I don't care if the Fed is flooding the stagnating economy with cash.  The disease has been spreading even with the lockdowns and restrictions.  This re-opening is going to wake a lot of people up to the consequences of the disease as more people get infected and die.  Huge portions of the economy will not be the same for years - restaurants, travel, sports and entertainment, casinos - anything that requires a bunch of people to gather in one place.  The market was objectively overvalued before the coronavirus crash.  It's closer to fairly valued now if Covid-19 wasn't present.  With Covid-19 still spreading and the U.S. and global economic consequences not yet being felt, I'm convinced we're in a for very bumpy ride.  I just made a seven figure bet on this, so I hope I'm right...

This bouncing of the market on what could hardly be called good news for the economy is driving me nuts.  The whole world is shut down to some degree or other.  Ok, New Zealand might reopen soon.  That won't exactly kick start the world economy.   It just feels like my money is in the hands of crazy people.  Why would the market go down, then up, up, and up some more? Up?  Really?  Why?  The world economy is in the toilet, we just added a huge amount of national debt,  and it's likely to get worse before it gets better.  I'm completely baffled.   It makes no sense to me.

This interview from a week ago was pretty good at explaining what’s going on in the stock markets. He tells you about all the horrible things going on and then why the markets are rising at 11:20.  Seemed like pretty good analysis. Stay safe and good luck.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G9HvukE56yM

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 07, 2020, 07:54:01 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 06, 2020, 10:07:22 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 06, 2020, 09:48:57 PM

Is it out of mind crazy to consider building your own?  I'll bet there's a huge markup on the new ones.  If you are retired, you've got time.

I was hoping to buy one from you after you become a pirate.  It would take you forever to build one. 


But if you really want to build one I found a free boat building school for you.  [size=78%]https://www.sirius-werft.de/wpsirius/de/die-werft/ausbildung/ (https://www.sirius-werft.de/wpsirius/de/die-werft/ausbildung/)[/size]

I ran it through translate and didn't see the school.  However, a quick search found this:

https://www.boats.com/on-the-water/10-homemade-boats-that-will-rock-your-world/ (https://www.boats.com/on-the-water/10-homemade-boats-that-will-rock-your-world/)

I think if pirates saw some of these, they'd pass you by.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 08, 2020, 10:01:11 PM

Speaking of pirates...I wonder who's protecting all the cruise ships that are anchored around the Caribbean?  Arrrg!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 09, 2020, 05:34:46 AM

Well since I've avoided buying a boat thusfar, we've finally clawed back above 2.3M.  Still wondering if this rebound has any legs.  Too fast, too easy, too fake, too narrow. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on May 09, 2020, 08:25:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 09, 2020, 05:34:46 AM

Well since I've avoided buying a boat thusfar, we've finally clawed back above 2.3M.  Still wondering if this rebound has any legs.  Too fast, too easy, too fake, too narrow.

I really don't know what to believe or do, so I stay the course.

I am clueless.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 09, 2020, 08:49:14 AM

Quote from: One on May 07, 2020, 12:49:59 AM

This interview from a week ago was pretty good at explaining what’s going on in the stock markets. He tells you about all the horrible things going on and then why the markets are rising at 11:20.  Seemed like pretty good analysis. Stay safe and good luck.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G9HvukE56yM

Thanks, that's an interesting interview. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: boatfire on May 09, 2020, 10:04:56 AM

Boats

We owned a liveaboard capable coastal yacht while saving for FI in the US.  We're between boats right now but plan to return to cruising full time in a few years. We bought for under 50k USD, all maintenance, except for haul-outs was DIY with minimal expense.  Ran the boat for 6 seasons, 2 weekends/month, 9 months/year. Sold it for the purchase price.  6 years of berthing exceeded the purchase price. Fuel and insurance were insignificant costs (not in a hurricane zone).  The highest maintenance risk to a boat in saltwater is lack of use.

If you are willing to learn basic maintenance and repairs, all of which are available via forums and YT, the maintenance costs drop by 75%.

A comfortable trawler yacht (powerboat) for the US great loop + Bahamas can be acquired for 35-100k, with an additional refit cost.  Similar in sail, with the added ability to reach to the Caribbean (with experience).  Highly recommend starting with a sub 100k boat, there are many available and a much larger buyer pool when selling. There is a constant supply of recently retired buyers looking for well-sorted sub 100k vessels.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on May 09, 2020, 07:18:22 PM

Well, I'm up $150K since the great covid crash of February. Anyone else up since then? I feel like my money is getting increasingly divorced from reality. 2020 has been like the worst year ever. Being isolated for months has made me miserable, and I feel like my personal productivity has gone to the dumpster. But according to my financial accounts, I've never been more successful. Nothing makes sense anymore.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 10, 2020, 07:07:00 AM

At the moment, we are down $58,347 from the peak in February - which is nothing considering the economic devastation that so many are experiencing. I am really stepping up donations to various charities in my area.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 10, 2020, 08:39:52 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on May 09, 2020, 07:18:22 PM

Well, I'm up $150K since the great covid crash of February. Anyone else up since then? I feel like my money is getting increasingly divorced from reality. 2020 has been like the worst year ever. Being isolated for months has made me miserable, and I feel like my personal productivity has gone to the dumpster. But according to my financial accounts, I've never been more successful. Nothing makes sense anymore.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11

Still down a little over 100K from the top.  But I'm still thinking that wasn't the only bottom we'll see.  Pretty much at a position of relative safety now.  If we see new bottoms, I will likely toss in some cash.  Been working on the Florida house this past week and retirement is looking better all the time.  Just heard a friend's husband was killed  while on his bicycle.  They had just been traveling and were forced back into the US by the pandemic.  They had just retired very healthily during their 50s in 2018.  They biked long distances.  Climbed mountains and had planned to visit many, many exotic places.  My heart goes out to her.  Time to get it done.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 10, 2020, 10:31:54 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on May 09, 2020, 07:18:22 PM

Well, I'm up $150K since the great covid crash of February. Anyone else up since then? I feel like my money is getting increasingly divorced from reality. 2020 has been like the worst year ever. Being isolated for months has made me miserable, and I feel like my personal productivity has gone to the dumpster. But according to my financial accounts, I've never been more successful. Nothing makes sense anymore.

I'm not following my NW that closely, but looks like I'm up for the year just doing a casual look.  Common sense tells me that shouldn't be the case, unemployment has spiked and the economy shut down.  Still have my job though and the long term incentive and bonus payout in March helped.  I'm kinda hunkered down at this point since I'm in oil and gas.  About 50% of my AA in equities, which I won't touch (other than dividends) for 20-30 years.

I look at this pandemic like a race where the rules are - the better you do, the shorter the race can be.  Well, we haven't done but the bare minimum at the beginning, so they told the participants that it's no longer a 5k but looks like maybe a 10k, just hang in there.  People started to freak out, but still hung in there.  The reality now is, it wasn't enough and it's gotta be a half marathon, but no one wants to hear that.  Everyone is fatigued and celebrating that they got a 10k done right now...  I'm not too optimistic about how the rest of this is going to go.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 10, 2020, 01:33:53 PM

Net worth is down about $135k since the start of the year.   But it's up about $50k since the end of the year before, so...

Non-SWR income is up dramatically.   As soon as we sell our old house (sadly the buyer under contract just backed out :( ), that will really add some big-time fluff to our annual budget.   (New house is absorbing the new income until old house sells.)  So, I expect by the end of the year we'll unload it and enjoy an extra $24k of income.

I only update the value of our properties once a year (in January) or when we've bought one and finished renovating it.   We've got one that will be finished soon so it should bump up our Net worth by about $45k in about 2 months.   We've got another one that we're donating to charity later this year, after it's renovated.   We'll take a hit on NW but we'll get a really nice income tax break, so there's that to soften the blow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on May 15, 2020, 03:32:25 PM

This is probably the time to experiment a retirement idea of cutting back spending at tough times. This time, we are forced to cut spending on travel and leisure activities. Frankly speaking, I don't like that idea.

So, I prefer to work for a few more years if needed and if I can, to have a cushion to support a lifestyle that I want to have in retirement. For me, forced to stay at home, either because of virus or because of lack of money, is worse than working at a job.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on May 15, 2020, 05:58:52 PM

You all must have conservative asset allocations.

I am still down $230k from the top on a 50% US / 40% foreign / 10% bond allocation.  And there was no panic selling (in fact, I rebalanced on the way down, including the literal day of the market lows).

And I'm not even allowed in the club anymore if you just look at liquid assets, and I am still working / contributing (not FIRE). 

The sad thing is that I was shitting bricks about the coronavirus (I literally took a day off work in the third week of February to buy stuff at Costco because I was worried about what was coming), but I was trained for over a decade to follow the buy-and-hold mantra through hell or high water and I did. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 15, 2020, 07:11:53 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on May 15, 2020, 05:58:52 PM

You all must have conservative asset allocations.

Not really, just not limited to stocks and bond funds. :)


Personal House(s) 11.73%   Will drop when we sell the house we just moved out of.
Stock/bonds       46.34%
Cash equivalents   2.76%
REI               38.02%
Cars               1.15%

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 15, 2020, 09:11:49 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on May 15, 2020, 03:32:25 PM

This is probably the time to experiment a retirement idea of cutting back spending at tough times. This time, we are forced to cut spending on travel and leisure activities. Frankly speaking, I don't like that idea.

So, I prefer to work for a few more years if needed and if I can, to have a cushion to support a lifestyle that I want to have in retirement. For me, forced to stay at home, either because of virus or because of lack of money, is worse than working at a job.

I hear what you're saying, but I get the impression from reading other FIRE blogs that this situation is a significant step down from belt-tightening.  Cutting back might be a little uncomfortable, but there is at least a possibility to substitute or play the game better.  Maybe sign up for a credit card reward or shop harder for flights.  Sit in economy vs. business class.  Drive instead of fly.

What we're up against now is having very limited choices.  I'd actually really like to go to a movie theater at some point or sit down at a restaurant, which I'd still indulge in even if tightening the belt, so I think you're being overly negative on ER by thinking it might be like quarantine.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 15, 2020, 09:18:50 PM

Probably a time to look at expenses.   The 4% rule is looking mighty rich with the projected interests rates.  Withdrawl rates of 2.5 to 3 percent may be in order.   If you hold bond mutual funds, a rise in rates will also cut fund prices.   Annuities don't pay crap right now.  Perfect time to plan your FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 16, 2020, 08:08:09 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on May 15, 2020, 03:32:25 PM

This is probably the time to experiment a retirement idea of cutting back spending at tough times. This time, we are forced to cut spending on travel and leisure activities. Frankly speaking, I don't like that idea.

So, I prefer to work for a few more years if needed and if I can, to have a cushion to support a lifestyle that I want to have in retirement. For me, forced to stay at home, either because of virus or because of lack of money, is worse than working at a job.

Like you, we don't mind working a bit to live the life we want.  We're not punching a time clock and are self employed, so we can pick and choose the workload and just enjoy the payoffs.  There's a lot of teasing in this thread about the One More Year syndrome, but we do what works for us. 

We had a massive travel budget, and, as of this moment, all but 2 domestic trips have been cancelled.  The 2 remaining are likely to also be cancelled, but are still months away.  This factor alone gave a big boost to the budget. 

A lot of our finances are in flux right now.  We just got paid off for a Real Estate loan we've been carrying for 10+ years, which was paying about $1500 a month just in interest (7% interest, I'll miss that so much).  So we paid off our last and final mortgage, and that's about a break even from the income loss.  We are truly debt free!  And we're buying another rental.  And I sold stocks and bought bonds.   In short, lots of stuff rearranging financially and at such an uncertain time.  I feel like we've got to keep our reserves high just in case the tenants hit additional hardships or their unemployment drags on. 

  We're stopping to smell the roses and enjoying our beautiful home and garden, as well as outdoor activities.  I'm blessed.   I can live like this for a long while. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on May 16, 2020, 10:46:36 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 15, 2020, 09:18:50 PM

Probably a time to look at expenses.   The 4% rule is looking mighty rich with the projected interests rates.  Withdrawl rates of 2.5 to 3 percent may be in order.   If you hold bond mutual funds, a rise in rates will also cut fund prices.   Annuities don't pay crap right now.  Perfect time to plan your FIRE.

So if the 4% rule was not good in February, it may be good now. If you have to work on 3% based on the current portfolio, I don't know why this whatever percentage rule matters anymore.

I use the 4% rule as a guideline to tell me that I may be financially independent at that point. I may or may not retire, dependent upon a few factors. I certainly will not actually follow the 4% rule to the letter in retirement withdrawal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: chasesfish on May 17, 2020, 04:26:16 AM

I'm down $500,000 and still enjoying being done with my high stress corporate job.   There are so many levers that can be pulled for income and for expenses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 17, 2020, 07:31:32 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 29, 2020, 10:58:49 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2020, 06:20:20 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 29, 2020, 04:51:04 PM

It really is a crazy situation to be in, one where an investor can't win.  If you want to get out, then you're missing out on what the Fed promises to be a free-for all buffet lunch for the market.  The Fed clearly said today that economic activity is too low, businesses need to be kept alive, and Congress has to get more money out to consumers. 

But if you stay invested, you know you are holding assets that are being propped up by issuing debt.  The government may be able to issue a lot of debt for a long time, but what if they can't?  It is common sense that EPS expansion can't go on forever - investors ultimately want to own companies that increase earnings over time.  In the US, the earnings come from consumers (or exports) and that's all gone in an unprecedented way.  No one has any idea what earnings will be or how long it will take for things to return to 'normal'.  In the meantime, many businesses will simply be unable to make money, but still have to service debt, pay rents, pay employees...

So, do you hold your bets for a few more days/weeks/months, thinking there's probably another few trillion coming from the Fed and Congress or do you rationalize that you're already pretty lucky to be able to sell stuff at inflated prices and sit out the roller coaster ride?

If only bonds or real estate offered a viable alternative!  I'm sure there will be lots of great opportunities to buy stuff at reasonable prices at some point, I just hope I'm patient enough not to blow myself up in the meantime.  I really have no idea what a reasonable S&P500 level is until we get some idea of earnings, so if it falls, how do you know when it has hit the floor?

Exactly what I'm feeling.  All common sense is gone.

I cashed out about 25% of our total market holdings before the market dropped.  The writing on the wall was just way too clear about where the market was heading.  Then I watched the market tumble down and wished I had sold it all.  I've watched this insanely optimistic surge as prices rebound.  I couldn't stand it anymore and sold another 50+% today, so that now we are about 80% allocated to cash.  New contributions are still going into the market, but I want a lot of dry powder when the market realizes the full consequences of the pandemic.

The market behavior is completely irrational.  I don't care if the Fed is flooding the stagnating economy with cash.  The disease has been spreading even with the lockdowns and restrictions.  This re-opening is going to wake a lot of people up to the consequences of the disease as more people get infected and die.  Huge portions of the economy will not be the same for years - restaurants, travel, sports and entertainment, casinos - anything that requires a bunch of people to gather in one place.  The market was objectively overvalued before the coronavirus crash.  It's closer to fairly valued now if Covid-19 wasn't present.  With Covid-19 still spreading and the U.S. and global economic consequences not yet being felt, I'm convinced we're in a for very bumpy ride.  I just made a seven figure bet on this, so I hope I'm right...

Very interesting.  Have your thoughts changed in the last several weeks?  Or has your position stayed the same?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on May 17, 2020, 09:17:46 AM

My holdings are the same. I have to admit that I have doubts about what the market will do (people are irrational), but I continue to believe it’s going to get worse before it gets better. The case and death numbers will likely begin ticking up as we move from May into June, As it takes a couple of weeks for the disease to spread before we start seeing cases and numbers. Once it starts hitting closer to home, perhaps people will begin to understand how serious this is.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 17, 2020, 10:03:00 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on May 17, 2020, 09:17:46 AM

My holdings are the same. I have to admit that I have doubts about what the market will do (people are irrational), but I continue to believe it’s going to get worse before it gets better. The case and death numbers will likely begin ticking up as we move from May into June, As it takes a couple of weeks for the disease to spread before we start seeing cases and numbers. Once it starts hitting closer to home, perhaps people will begin to understand how serious this is.

These are my thoughts, also.  It just seems like the worst is yet to come.  I think it may be in the Fall, though, as the summer heat helps slow the spread regardless of behaviors.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 17, 2020, 01:14:39 PM

An interesting article (https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/have-the-record-number-of-investors-in-the-stock-market-lost-their-minds?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_051620&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd67a1324c17c1048027701&cndid=42751525&hasha=d3aeeb0f84c018de5f59c754ac58803e&hashb=37524b9b5567dfb1915acaea621db5e927f1295a&hashc=5c388683bd332c31c27ab8b2a262e1d78acc7edf02b535fc73ce65997c103664&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily) in The New Yorker

Quote

Stocks don’t always rebound in a “V” shape. During the last lengthy bear market, which accompanied the Great Recession, stocks prices started falling in September, 2007, and didn’t bottom out until February, 2009, seventeen months later. During the Great Depression, in the nineteen-thirties, the bear market lasted even longer. It began with the Wall Street crash of October, 1929, and lasted until the middle of 1932; by then, the market was down about eighty per cent from its pre-crash peak. Stocks didn’t hit new highs until the nineteen-fifties.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 18, 2020, 11:56:48 AM

Hmm.. nice little pop today I might do some rebalancing.

I took about 5% of our portfolio and rolled from Bonds to stocks when we were about 30% down from memory.

I'm thinking of taking the same dollar value and rolling it to cash for some dry powder.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 18, 2020, 03:46:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 18, 2020, 11:56:48 AM

Hmm.. nice little pop today I might do some rebalancing.

I took about 5% of our portfolio and rolled from Bonds to stocks when we were about 30% down from memory.

I'm thinking of taking the same dollar value and rolling it to cash for some dry powder.

I'm just going to lengthen the future boat.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on May 18, 2020, 03:54:37 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 17, 2020, 01:14:39 PM

An interesting article (https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/have-the-record-number-of-investors-in-the-stock-market-lost-their-minds?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_051620&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd67a1324c17c1048027701&cndid=42751525&hasha=d3aeeb0f84c018de5f59c754ac58803e&hashb=37524b9b5567dfb1915acaea621db5e927f1295a&hashc=5c388683bd332c31c27ab8b2a262e1d78acc7edf02b535fc73ce65997c103664&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily) in The New Yorker

Quote

Stocks don’t always rebound in a “V” shape. During the last lengthy bear market, which accompanied the Great Recession, stocks prices started falling in September, 2007, and didn’t bottom out until February, 2009, seventeen months later. During the Great Depression, in the nineteen-thirties, the bear market lasted even longer. It began with the Wall Street crash of October, 1929, and lasted until the middle of 1932; by then, the market was down about eighty per cent from its pre-crash peak. Stocks didn’t hit new highs until the nineteen-fifties.

I wonder whether that next 1950s high in 1950 was adjusted for inflation.  If not, I wonder when the real inflation adjusted high was.

Probably can look that up but I'm wiped, maybe somebody knows offhand.

Consider as well impacts of dividends, taxes, frees. 

Any way you slice it, it certainly was a good long while before investors saw a real recovery.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on May 18, 2020, 04:07:38 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on May 18, 2020, 03:54:37 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 17, 2020, 01:14:39 PM

An interesting article (https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/have-the-record-number-of-investors-in-the-stock-market-lost-their-minds?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_051620&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd67a1324c17c1048027701&cndid=42751525&hasha=d3aeeb0f84c018de5f59c754ac58803e&hashb=37524b9b5567dfb1915acaea621db5e927f1295a&hashc=5c388683bd332c31c27ab8b2a262e1d78acc7edf02b535fc73ce65997c103664&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily) in The New Yorker

Quote

Stocks don’t always rebound in a “V” shape. During the last lengthy bear market, which accompanied the Great Recession, stocks prices started falling in September, 2007, and didn’t bottom out until February, 2009, seventeen months later. During the Great Depression, in the nineteen-thirties, the bear market lasted even longer. It began with the Wall Street crash of October, 1929, and lasted until the middle of 1932; by then, the market was down about eighty per cent from its pre-crash peak. Stocks didn’t hit new highs until the nineteen-fifties.

I wonder whether that next 1950s high in 1950 was adjusted for inflation.  If not, I wonder when the real inflation adjusted high was.

Probably can look that up but I'm wiped, maybe somebody knows offhand.

Consider as well impacts of dividends, taxes, frees. 

Any way you slice it, it certainly was a good long while before investors saw a real recovery.

If dividends (usually not considered in these arguments) is taken into account, I'll bet the investors made money before 1950.

Quote

During the 90 years between 1871 and 1960, the S&P 500 annual dividend yield never fell below 3%. In fact, annual dividends reached above 5% during 45 separate years over the period. "

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/071616/history-sp-500-dividend-yield.asp

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 18, 2020, 06:55:06 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 18, 2020, 03:46:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 18, 2020, 11:56:48 AM

Hmm.. nice little pop today I might do some rebalancing.

I took about 5% of our portfolio and rolled from Bonds to stocks when we were about 30% down from memory.

I'm thinking of taking the same dollar value and rolling it to cash for some dry powder.

I'm just going to lengthen the future boat.

Boat - no Yacht.  You've got to get used to the right lingo.

In a year or two maybe you'll be telling us about the Great Barrier Reef and how you actually did fight off those Somali pirates.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on May 18, 2020, 06:58:19 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on May 18, 2020, 04:07:38 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on May 18, 2020, 03:54:37 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 17, 2020, 01:14:39 PM

An interesting article (https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/have-the-record-number-of-investors-in-the-stock-market-lost-their-minds?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_051620&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd67a1324c17c1048027701&cndid=42751525&hasha=d3aeeb0f84c018de5f59c754ac58803e&hashb=37524b9b5567dfb1915acaea621db5e927f1295a&hashc=5c388683bd332c31c27ab8b2a262e1d78acc7edf02b535fc73ce65997c103664&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily) in The New Yorker

Quote

Stocks don’t always rebound in a “V” shape. During the last lengthy bear market, which accompanied the Great Recession, stocks prices started falling in September, 2007, and didn’t bottom out until February, 2009, seventeen months later. During the Great Depression, in the nineteen-thirties, the bear market lasted even longer. It began with the Wall Street crash of October, 1929, and lasted until the middle of 1932; by then, the market was down about eighty per cent from its pre-crash peak. Stocks didn’t hit new highs until the nineteen-fifties.

I wonder whether that next 1950s high in 1950 was adjusted for inflation.  If not, I wonder when the real inflation adjusted high was.

Probably can look that up but I'm wiped, maybe somebody knows offhand.

Consider as well impacts of dividends, taxes, frees. 

Any way you slice it, it certainly was a good long while before investors saw a real recovery.

If dividends (usually not considered in these arguments) is taken into account, I'll bet the investors made money before 1950.

Quote

During the 90 years between 1871 and 1960, the S&P 500 annual dividend yield never fell below 3%. In fact, annual dividends reached above 5% during 45 separate years over the period. "

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/071616/history-sp-500-dividend-yield.asp

It would be great if when people did these types of studies they always stated the findings in terms of real returns, with dividends included. 

I suspect you are right that returns are nominal and exclude dividends, but I didn't realize the dividend effect would probably be stronger than the inflation effect.  Thanks for pointing that out. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 18, 2020, 07:33:20 PM

The one article I read about the Great Depression said that if you took into account dividends and deflation (which was significant not surprisingly) then it was a 7 year event..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 18, 2020, 08:40:11 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 18, 2020, 06:55:06 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 18, 2020, 03:46:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 18, 2020, 11:56:48 AM

Hmm.. nice little pop today I might do some rebalancing.

I took about 5% of our portfolio and rolled from Bonds to stocks when we were about 30% down from memory.

I'm thinking of taking the same dollar value and rolling it to cash for some dry powder.

I'm just going to lengthen the future boat.

Boat - no Yacht.  You've got to get used to the right lingo.

In a year or two maybe you'll be telling us about the Great Barrier Reef and how you actually did fight off those Somali pirates.

I'm just trying to buy some stuff before we dilute the dollar to worthlessness.  But yes, it would be a yacht.  Those eat dollars even faster than boats.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 18, 2020, 10:45:59 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 18, 2020, 08:40:11 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 18, 2020, 06:55:06 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 18, 2020, 03:46:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 18, 2020, 11:56:48 AM

Hmm.. nice little pop today I might do some rebalancing.

I took about 5% of our portfolio and rolled from Bonds to stocks when we were about 30% down from memory.

I'm thinking of taking the same dollar value and rolling it to cash for some dry powder.

I'm just going to lengthen the future boat.

Boat - no Yacht.  You've got to get used to the right lingo.

In a year or two maybe you'll be telling us about the Great Barrier Reef and how you actually did fight off those Somali pirates.

I'm just trying to buy some stuff before we dilute the dollar to worthlessness.  But yes, it would be a yacht.  Those eat dollars even faster than boats.

Aviation is similar.. In fact its easy to make a small fortune in aviation... You just start with a large fortune!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on May 19, 2020, 03:11:03 AM

Interesting article saying exactly that (plus the Dow Jones is crazy, as we all knew but it's easy to forget, particularly for those of us outside the US).

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/your-money/stocks-and-bonds/26stra.html

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 19, 2020, 11:16:15 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on May 19, 2020, 03:11:03 AM

Interesting article saying exactly that (plus the Dow Jones is crazy, as we all knew but it's easy to forget, particularly for those of us outside the US).

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/your-money/stocks-and-bonds/26stra.html

Yup, so 4.5 years from the 1932 low to recovery.. add the three years from 29 to 32 and that gives 7.5 years.

My Wife incidently is now on line booking a ticket from Portland, Oregon to Denver for... 20 bucks round trip! Now thats deflation..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 19, 2020, 08:31:07 PM

We're looking at an awesome 13 day cruise from New York to many nice Carribean ports.  It ends in New Orleans.   So really convient for us.  Direct flight from New Orleans, we can have family drop us off at airport.  Norwegian Breakaway is the ship.  Sail out of New York November 9th and ends in New Orleans on November 23rd.  We can get a nice balcony room with drink and dinner package for about $3500.  Toss in flight and transfer less than $4000.  Great value for all the ports we'll be seeing.   What y'all think?   Will it be safe?   Money is refundable up until 48 hours and only a small deposit is required for which we have an existing credit.  I'm about ready to book this because the good rooms are filling up.  Ending in New Orleans makes it super easy for us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on May 19, 2020, 09:06:25 PM

???

Are you prepared for the cruise to turn into a multi-week odyssey where you never leave the ship in those ports and get stuck on the ship when you get home to New Orleans?  Yikes, I wouldn’t go anywhere near a cruise ship right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 19, 2020, 09:18:04 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 19, 2020, 08:31:07 PM

We're looking at an awesome 13 day cruise from New York to many nice Carribean ports.  It ends in New Orleans.   So really convient for us.  Direct flight from New Orleans, we can have family drop us off at airport.  Norwegian Breakaway is the ship.  Sail out of New York November 9th and ends in New Orleans on November 23rd.  We can get a nice balcony room with drink and dinner package for about $3500.  Toss in flight and transfer less than $4000.  Great value for all the ports we'll be seeing.   What y'all think?   Will it be safe?   Money is refundable up until 48 hours and only a small deposit is required for which we have an existing credit.  I'm about ready to book this because the good rooms are filling up.  Ending in New Orleans makes it super easy for us.

JFC!!!

Note the dateline for this article is 2 days ago:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article242565281.html


Seriously, if you go, make sure you have your and your spouse's will and powers of attorney up to date, an a competent, willing executor lined up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 19, 2020, 09:18:49 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on May 19, 2020, 09:06:25 PM

???

Are you prepared for the cruise to turn into a multi-week odyssey where you never leave the ship in those ports and get stuck on the ship when you get home to New Orleans?  Yikes, I wouldn’t go anywhere near a cruise ship right now.

I'm definitely getting a balcony.  I'll probably bring a few hundred pounds of Mardi Gras beads to throw to the crowds along the way!

I'm asking the hive mind here.  I'm mean, I can for freaking free get the opinions of millionaires!  Mr. Money Mustache Tom Sawyered the shit outta this.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 19, 2020, 10:08:54 PM

NFW would I go anywhere near a cruise ship without a viable vaccine. note you only need one asymptomatic patient (who won't show symptoms for 14 days) to take out the entire ship!

Have a good time (in your cabin)...:)

On a more positive note.. Jim Cramer today said there will NOT be a depression in the US. Yay, we're saved!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on May 19, 2020, 10:37:41 PM

We’ve just had someone test positive for covid19 who must have had it for 2 months already!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 20, 2020, 06:49:13 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 19, 2020, 09:18:49 PM

I'm asking the hive mind here.  mean, I can for freaking free get the opinions of millionaires!  Mr. Money Mustache Tom Sawyered the shit outta this.

OMG, that is so true! LMAO!

Bateaux, I'm another voice in the chorus. Still too many variables.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on May 20, 2020, 06:56:52 AM

If I wanted to visit Caribbean islands, I'd get on a plane and fly to that island.  That's what I've always done.  Why come into the port, get on some rip off excursion, drive to some overly touristy point on an island, maybe get lunch and come back to the ship when spending a week on the island, you get an actual flavor of the island, see stuff that cruisers will never see (if you visited Aruba, did you get a Balashi Beer tour?  Trip out to Palo Marga dragstrip?  Climb the stairs to the top of Hooiberg (haystack mountain)?  I doubt it.  You'd likely get shuttled to Baby Beach and maybe back for shopping in Orangestad before getting on the kettle of bacteria to go back out to sea.

Can you tell I'm not a cruise fan?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 20, 2020, 07:51:26 AM

It may at least behoove you to simply contact the cruise line and ask them what actions they are taking to ensure that folks do not get sick.  It may also make sense to ask them what special requirements may be made of yourselves.  Get the facts before making the decision.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 09:55:52 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on May 20, 2020, 06:56:52 AM

If I wanted to visit Caribbean islands, I'd get on a plane and fly to that island.  That's what I've always done.  Why come into the port, get on some rip off excursion, drive to some overly touristy point on an island, maybe get lunch and come back to the ship when spending a week on the island, you get an actual flavor of the island, see stuff that cruisers will never see (if you visited Aruba, did you get a Balashi Beer tour?  Trip out to Palo Marga dragstrip?  Climb the stairs to the top of Hooiberg (haystack mountain)?  I doubt it.  You'd likely get shuttled to Baby Beach and maybe back for shopping in Orangestad before getting on the kettle of bacteria to go back out to sea.

Can you tell I'm not a cruise fan?

That is exactly the way my wife likes it!  Get the dime tour for about 5 or 6 hours and back to the boat.  I kinda like it myself, even though I hope to own a vessel some day and visit them all much more slowly.  We both love the mega ships and would probably go even if they didn't let you leave the immediate touristy section at port.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 09:57:20 AM

(http://)

Quote from: pecunia on May 20, 2020, 07:51:26 AM

It may at least behoove you to simply contact the cruise line and ask them what actions they are taking to ensure that folks do not get sick.  It may also make sense to ask them what special requirements may be made of yourselves.  Get the facts before making the decision.

Not much they can do. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on May 20, 2020, 10:05:44 AM

Quote

Bateaux wrote

Quote

The escalator always goes up in time.  If you never get off you'll go higher, you just have to hang on through a few rough dips.  Survival of those dips is key.   Yesterday I dipped $5,000 turns out.  That's a total emergency fund for some who actually feel comfortable.  It's an annual salary in some countries.  It's a blip for us.  Not even a memory the next day.

I'm on the verge of selling everything in stock today.

I am confused.  you posted both of these statements on the same day, 4/29/2020.  what did you do and how do you feel today?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on May 20, 2020, 10:29:45 AM

Quote from: chasesfish on May 17, 2020, 04:26:16 AM

I'm down $500,000 and still enjoying being done with my high stress corporate job.   There are so many levers that can be pulled for income and for expenses.

my portfolio is up $200K+ since the top in February but a) I received a large bonus from my high stress corporate job and b) rebalanced heavily into equities, even some individual stocks. They've done quite well and i should probably sell.  anything over 100% is just greedy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 11:24:04 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on May 20, 2020, 10:05:44 AM

Quote

Bateaux wrote

Quote

The escalator always goes up in time.  If you never get off you'll go higher, you just have to hang on through a few rough dips.  Survival of those dips is key.   Yesterday I dipped $5,000 turns out.  That's a total emergency fund for some who actually feel comfortable.  It's an annual salary in some countries.  It's a blip for us.  Not even a memory the next day.

I'm on the verge of selling everything in stock today.

I am confused.  you posted both of these statements on the same day, 4/29/2020.  what did you do and how do you feel today?

A lesson I've learned, don't fight the Fed.  The Fed promises to bring it's balance sheet to 10 trillion, just stay in the indexes and momentum stocks.  Where would I run to anyway?  I already have over a million in cash and bonds.  If interest rates go up like they should when you print trillions, bonds lose value.  If interest rates stay low, they pay out less than inflation.  No rules apply anymore.  In times past when you acquired over 2 million dollars or its current relative value, you'd won the game.  Bonds paid out 6 or 7 percent.  When I started working at my company, they didn't have a 401K.  They had a guaranteed 8 percent minimum savings GIC account. Could you imagine 8 percent guaranteed return?  They also had a great pension, 1.6 times years of service.  Divide that by 100 and multiply by the average of your last 5 years of service.  So say 30 years of service.  30×1.6=48 ,48÷100=0.48 , 0.48 × $100,000=$48,000 per year.  For me at this moment would be around 50K a year starting August 2020.  Unfortunately, that pension began to run out of funds in 2012.  Now I do have over 400K in the cash balance remnant of that luscious golden parachute taken by many in 2012.  So yeah, it gets emotional when things you thought guaranteed get washed away.  So based on what I was told to plan for, my 401K account value x 8 percent guaranteed is a little over 100k a year in interest.   With my pension, of 50k would be 150k per year starting this August.   That's with no savings outside my company plans.  How did it all shake out?  Currently the 401K is 1.23 million.  The cash balance pension is 405K.  That's 1.635 million right now in company plans  and available to me this August.  There are those savvy enough to eek that 150K I'd expected from that value.  But with lots of risk vs risk free.  I have other accounts and my wife does as well, all inclusive it's a little over 2.3 million.  Not bad right?  The accumulation was easy, persistence pays.  But, how do you convert that to a paycheck in this enviroment?  That was a long and poorly written answer to your question.  Even worse, it wasn't an answer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 20, 2020, 11:36:23 AM

@Bateaux , take enough cruises over the next 3 months and I bet you'll bury your concerns over longevity risk to your stash...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 11:42:31 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 20, 2020, 11:36:23 AM

@Bateaux , take enough cruises over the next 3 months and I bet you'll bury your concerns over longevity risk to your stash...

Y'all love me dammit!  I try and keep this place live.  You gotta have a crazy Cajun to keep it fresh.

I'm about ready to book that dang cruise.  Don't worry, I'll tell Y'all all about it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 20, 2020, 01:40:55 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 11:42:31 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 20, 2020, 11:36:23 AM

@Bateaux , take enough cruises over the next 3 months and I bet you'll bury your concerns over longevity risk to your stash...

Y'all love me dammit!  I try and keep this place live.  You gotta have a crazy Cajun to keep it fresh.

I'm about ready to book that dang cruise.  Don't worry, I'll tell Y'all all about it.

"Laissez les bons temps rouler"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 02:04:25 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 20, 2020, 01:40:55 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 11:42:31 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 20, 2020, 11:36:23 AM

@Bateaux , take enough cruises over the next 3 months and I bet you'll bury your concerns over longevity risk to your stash...

Y'all love me dammit!  I try and keep this place live.  You gotta have a crazy Cajun to keep it fresh.

I'm about ready to book that dang cruise.  Don't worry, I'll tell Y'all all about it.

"Laissez les bons temps rouler"

Dat's what I'm talking about chéri

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 20, 2020, 02:35:01 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 11:24:04 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on May 20, 2020, 10:05:44 AM

Quote

Bateaux wrote

Quote

The escalator always goes up in time.  If you never get off you'll go higher, you just have to hang on through a few rough dips.  Survival of those dips is key.   Yesterday I dipped $5,000 turns out.  That's a total emergency fund for some who actually feel comfortable.  It's an annual salary in some countries.  It's a blip for us.  Not even a memory the next day.

I'm on the verge of selling everything in stock today.

I am confused.  you posted both of these statements on the same day, 4/29/2020.  what did you do and how do you feel today?

A lesson I've learned, don't fight the Fed.  The Fed promises to bring it's balance sheet to 10 trillion, just stay in the indexes and momentum stocks.  Where would I run to anyway?  I already have over a million in cash and bonds.  If interest rates go up like they should when you print trillions, bonds lose value.  If interest rates stay low, they pay out less than inflation.  No rules apply anymore.  In times past when you acquired over 2 million dollars or its current relative value, you'd won the game.  Bonds paid out 6 or 7 percent.  When I started working at my company, they didn't have a 401K.  They had a guaranteed 8 percent minimum savings GIC account. Could you imagine 8 percent guaranteed return?  They also had a great pension, 1.6 times years of service.  Divide that by 100 and multiply by the average of your last 5 years of service.  So say 30 years of service.  30×1.6=48 ,48÷100=0.48 , 0.48 × $100,000=$48,000 per year.  For me at this moment would be around 50K a year starting August 2020.  Unfortunately, that pension began to run out of funds in 2012.  Now I do have over 400K in the cash balance remnant of that luscious golden parachute taken by many in 2012.  So yeah, it gets emotional when things you thought guaranteed get washed away.  So based on what I was told to plan for, my 401K account value x 8 percent guaranteed is a little over 100k a year in interest.   With my pension, of 50k would be 150k per year starting this August.   That's with no savings outside my company plans.  How did it all shake out?  Currently the 401K is 1.23 million.  The cash balance pension is 405K.  That's 1.635 million right now in company plans  and available to me this August.  There are those savvy enough to eek that 150K I'd expected from that value.  But with lots of risk vs risk free.  I have other accounts and my wife does as well, all inclusive it's a little over 2.3 million.  Not bad right?  The accumulation was easy, persistence pays.  But, how do you convert that to a paycheck in this enviroment?  That was a long and poorly written answer to your question.  Even worse, it wasn't an answer.

So what you’re saying then is that we should try to figure out what our net worth actually is? Whoa. What a buzzkill.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 03:09:02 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 20, 2020, 02:35:01 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 11:24:04 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on May 20, 2020, 10:05:44 AM

Quote

Bateaux wrote

Quote

The escalator always goes up in time.  If you never get off you'll go higher, you just have to hang on through a few rough dips.  Survival of those dips is key.   Yesterday I dipped $5,000 turns out.  That's a total emergency fund for some who actually feel comfortable.  It's an annual salary in some countries.  It's a blip for us.  Not even a memory the next day.

I'm on the verge of selling everything in stock today.

I am confused.  you posted both of these statements on the same day, 4/29/2020.  what did you do and how do you feel today?

A lesson I've learned, don't fight the Fed.  The Fed promises to bring it's balance sheet to 10 trillion, just stay in the indexes and momentum stocks.  Where would I run to anyway?  I already have over a million in cash and bonds.  If interest rates go up like they should when you print trillions, bonds lose value.  If interest rates stay low, they pay out less than inflation.  No rules apply anymore.  In times past when you acquired over 2 million dollars or its current relative value, you'd won the game.  Bonds paid out 6 or 7 percent.  When I started working at my company, they didn't have a 401K.  They had a guaranteed 8 percent minimum savings GIC account. Could you imagine 8 percent guaranteed return?  They also had a great pension, 1.6 times years of service.  Divide that by 100 and multiply by the average of your last 5 years of service.  So say 30 years of service.  30×1.6=48 ,48÷100=0.48 , 0.48 × $100,000=$48,000 per year.  For me at this moment would be around 50K a year starting August 2020.  Unfortunately, that pension began to run out of funds in 2012.  Now I do have over 400K in the cash balance remnant of that luscious golden parachute taken by many in 2012.  So yeah, it gets emotional when things you thought guaranteed get washed away.  So based on what I was told to plan for, my 401K account value x 8 percent guaranteed is a little over 100k a year in interest.   With my pension, of 50k would be 150k per year starting this August.   That's with no savings outside my company plans.  How did it all shake out?  Currently the 401K is 1.23 million.  The cash balance pension is 405K.  That's 1.635 million right now in company plans  and available to me this August.  There are those savvy enough to eek that 150K I'd expected from that value.  But with lots of risk vs risk free.  I have other accounts and my wife does as well, all inclusive it's a little over 2.3 million.  Not bad right?  The accumulation was easy, persistence pays.  But, how do you convert that to a paycheck in this enviroment?  That was a long and poorly written answer to your question.  Even worse, it wasn't an answer.

So what you’re saying then is that we should try to figure out what our net worth actually is? Whoa. What a buzzkill.

Yeah.  I know it sucks.  I'm ready to GTFO and I'm scared shitless of this market condition.  I'm booking a dang cruise.   That either proves I'm not a candy ass or just a fool.  These people are way smarter than this dumb Cajun.   I'm just along for the ride and trying to tease them into posting some smart stuff I can follow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 20, 2020, 04:54:39 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 03:09:02 PM

Yeah.  I know it sucks.  I'm ready to GTFO and I'm scared shitless of this market condition.  I'm booking a dang cruise.   That either proves I'm not a candy ass or just a fool.  These people are way smarter than this dumb Cajun.   I'm just along for the ride and trying to tease them into posting some smart stuff I can follow.

OK. So let me get this right. You’re sitting on a $2.3 mil stash in southern Louisiana? That’s like being a deca millionaire anyplace else in the country. And you’re scared of the market? Lord have mercy. So let’s say the market crashes and burns. You’ll only be able to buy half your parish instead of 2/3 of it!

I’ll tell you, the only things that seems to help me when the market is being bat___ crazy is cash and diversification. And VTSAX doesn’t scratch the itch.

Dumb Cajun? Hah. Dumb like a fox.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 08:49:02 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 19, 2020, 09:18:04 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 19, 2020, 08:31:07 PM

We're looking at an awesome 13 day cruise from New York to many nice Carribean ports.  It ends in New Orleans.   So really convient for us.  Direct flight from New Orleans, we can have family drop us off at airport.  Norwegian Breakaway is the ship.  Sail out of New York November 9th and ends in New Orleans on November 23rd.  We can get a nice balcony room with drink and dinner package for about $3500.  Toss in flight and transfer less than $4000.  Great value for all the ports we'll be seeing.   What y'all think?   Will it be safe?   Money is refundable up until 48 hours and only a small deposit is required for which we have an existing credit.  I'm about ready to book this because the good rooms are filling up.  Ending in New Orleans makes it super easy for us.

JFC!!!

Note the dateline for this article is 2 days ago:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article242565281.html


Seriously, if you go, make sure you have your and your spouse's will and powers of attorney up to date, an a competent, willing executor lined up.

Great thing about Louisiana is Napoleonic Law.  Yep we still have laws on the books from the French.  I can write my will on a cocktail napkin without a lawyer or notary and it's legal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: desk_jockey on May 20, 2020, 09:01:38 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 20, 2020, 04:54:39 PM

Hah. Dumb like a fox.

I think that might be the wrong animal, when it comes to describing Cajuns.

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 20, 2020, 04:54:39 PM

I’ll tell you, the only things that seems to help me when the market is being bat___ crazy is cash and diversification. And VTSAX doesn’t scratch the itch.

I just flat out don’t understand the market.  Seems that people expect the government to bail-out everyone before any situation gets to bad.  It certainly appears to be happening.  That may keep markets too expensive for a while.  I guess that will work for a time… until it doesn’t.  And then there will be hell to pay.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 20, 2020, 09:17:05 PM

Quote from: desk_jockey on May 20, 2020, 09:01:38 PM

- SNIP -

I just flat out don’t understand the market.  Seems that people expect the government to bail-out everyone before any situation gets to bad.  It certainly appears to be happening.  That may keep markets too expensive for a while.  I guess that will work for a time… until it doesn’t.  And then there will be hell to pay.

Will there be hell to pay?  Haven't we already had a big "correction?"

So - Government sends people money for a bit.  What do they do with it?  Mostly spend it.  This keeps the demand for goods and services up and keeps the stock prices up.  Mostly win - win for a little while.  (Trickle Up Economics)

After the little bit, no more government money.  Virus fear dies down.  People go back to work.  They make money.  Mostly spend it.  This maintains the demand for goods and services. This keeps stock prices up as the companies have real value.  Mostly win-win for longer time until business cycle dumps on people again.

Stock prices may stay down for a bit, but maybe it's better if their price is based on real value rather than speculation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: desk_jockey on May 20, 2020, 11:24:30 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 20, 2020, 09:17:05 PM

Quote from: desk_jockey on May 20, 2020, 09:01:38 PM

- SNIP -

I just flat out don’t understand the market.  Seems that people expect the government to bail-out everyone before any situation gets to bad.  It certainly appears to be happening.  That may keep markets too expensive for a while.  I guess that will work for a time… until it doesn’t.  And then there will be hell to pay.

Will there be hell to pay?  Haven't we already had a big "correction?"

So - Government sends people money for a bit.  What do they do with it?  Mostly spend it.  This keeps the demand for goods and services up and keeps the stock prices up.  Mostly win - win for a little while.  (Trickle Up Economics)

After the little bit, no more government money.  Virus fear dies down.  People go back to work.  They make money.  Mostly spend it.  This maintains the demand for goods and services. This keeps stock prices up as the companies have real value.  Mostly win-win for longer time until business cycle dumps on people again.

Stock prices may stay down for a bit, but maybe it's better if their price is based on real value rather than speculation.

The comment was not about the government sending people money.  The stimulus checks and far more importantly the extra money for unemployment are needed. But these are a very small fraction of the recent government stimulus. 

My comment was directed at the great part of the stimulus that went to propping-up companies. Again. This time we were exceptionally quick to give money into companies.   It might be worth noting that Buffett and Munger aren’t buying, presumably because they can’t find deals of value.   In previous financial crises corporations have come to them hat-in-hand (e.g. GE in 2008).  This time around there seems to be less need of that, as the government stepped in before market forces were in full effect.

Have we had a big correction?   A blip correction is more like it.   Down 10% two months after an all-time peak is hardly a big correction.

At this point, I’m speculating out loud as to whether we’re seeing a fundamental change in the playing field.   Has the market or the coverage of it become so important that the federal elected officials feel they can’t let wide-spread bad things happen?   Will they now rush in with lower interest rates and massive corporate economic assistance every time there is a problem?  Are they worried that a small drop in stock prices might mean they won’t get reelected? 

I’m wondering if we are in a cycle in which there is limited downside risk because the government is standing by to print money to solve any corporate market problem.  That will work for a while. 10 years, 15 years, or 40 years…  If this is what is happening, eventually we will reach a point where the same solution won’t be able to fix the next economic problem.  At that time there will be hell to pay.

That said, I'll stand by my previous comment:  I just flat out don’t understand [this] market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 21, 2020, 06:52:23 AM

Quote from: desk_jockey on May 20, 2020, 11:24:30 PM

- SNIP -

The comment was not about the government sending people money.  The stimulus checks and far more importantly the extra money for unemployment are needed. But these are a very small fraction of the recent government stimulus. 

My comment was directed at the great part of the stimulus that went to propping-up companies. Again. This time we were exceptionally quick to give money into companies.   It might be worth noting that Buffett and Munger aren’t buying, presumably because they can’t find deals of value.   In previous financial crises corporations have come to them hat-in-hand (e.g. GE in 2008).  This time around there seems to be less need of that, as the government stepped in before market forces were in full effect.

Oh heck, that's even more basic.

"Ya dance with the one that brung ya."

It's a very commonly known fact that it costs a bit of money to get into the Washington thing.  Who pays that money?  It comes from different places.  A chunk of it is paid by American enterprise, businesses.  American businesses don't just throw money away.  They have really smart people who know all about investing money.  (Just like you guys.)  When they invest that money, they expect a return.

When businesses hire a young person out of college, they have an investment in that person.  They are grooming that person to be successful in their organization.  They recognize people that can become one of their own.

When businesses contribute to an aspiring politician, they have an investment in that person.  Their lobbyists help that person to successfully represent them.  They help elect one of their own.

So,......the good news for all these businesses is that sometimes a small investment really pays off.  As you noted, the stock prices stayed up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 21, 2020, 07:51:58 AM

Quote from: desk_jockey on May 20, 2020, 11:24:30 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 20, 2020, 09:17:05 PM

Quote from: desk_jockey on May 20, 2020, 09:01:38 PM

- SNIP -

I just flat out don’t understand the market.  Seems that people expect the government to bail-out everyone before any situation gets to bad.  It certainly appears to be happening.  That may keep markets too expensive for a while.  I guess that will work for a time… until it doesn’t.  And then there will be hell to pay.

Will there be hell to pay?  Haven't we already had a big "correction?"

So - Government sends people money for a bit.  What do they do with it?  Mostly spend it.  This keeps the demand for goods and services up and keeps the stock prices up.  Mostly win - win for a little while.  (Trickle Up Economics)

After the little bit, no more government money.  Virus fear dies down.  People go back to work.  They make money.  Mostly spend it.  This maintains the demand for goods and services. This keeps stock prices up as the companies have real value.  Mostly win-win for longer time until business cycle dumps on people again.

Stock prices may stay down for a bit, but maybe it's better if their price is based on real value rather than speculation.

The comment was not about the government sending people money.  The stimulus checks and far more importantly the extra money for unemployment are needed. But these are a very small fraction of the recent government stimulus. 

My comment was directed at the great part of the stimulus that went to propping-up companies. Again. This time we were exceptionally quick to give money into companies.   It might be worth noting that Buffett and Munger aren’t buying, presumably because they can’t find deals of value.   In previous financial crises corporations have come to them hat-in-hand (e.g. GE in 2008).  This time around there seems to be less need of that, as the government stepped in before market forces were in full effect.

Have we had a big correction?   A blip correction is more like it.   Down 10% two months after an all-time peak is hardly a big correction.

At this point, I’m speculating out loud as to whether we’re seeing a fundamental change in the playing field.   Has the market or the coverage of it become so important that the federal elected officials feel they can’t let wide-spread bad things happen?   Will they now rush in with lower interest rates and massive corporate economic assistance every time there is a problem?  Are they worried that a small drop in stock prices might mean they won’t get reelected? 

I’m wondering if we are in a cycle in which there is limited downside risk because the government is standing by to print money to solve any corporate market problem.  That will work for a while. 10 years, 15 years, or 40 years…  If this is what is happening, eventually we will reach a point where the same solution won’t be able to fix the next economic problem.  At that time there will be hell to pay.

That said, I'll stand by my previous comment:  I just flat out don’t understand [this] market.

I share your frustration.   Eventually companies have to make real money for stock values to hold up.  There will be a huge number of small business failures within the next year.  They live paycheck to paycheck like a lot of American workers.   Loans and grants can only bridge the gap so long.  New businesses will see opportunity in that void however so it's not all gloom and doom.  The stock market also runs on future expectations.  But in that future you have to let the deadwood fall.  A rotting limb only adds stress to the tree, it would rather grow a new healthy limb from a fresh bud.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 21, 2020, 08:32:24 AM

I'm torn about where to be too.


On the one hand it appears that we are in, or on the brink of, a depression.  There's been a hefty bounce, which will most certainly reverse course and head back into a deeper crash soon. 


I captured some loses and bought a bit (about 20% of my portfolio) of VFIAX and am back up about 20% now.  I think it might be time to liquidate and go all cash. 


But, I'm also thinking about investing in actively managed sector funds.  ARKG is up YTD 46%, and the other ARK funds look interesting too.  I'm just not sure passive broad based index funds make sense right now.  I see a lot of bankruptcies and struggling stocks ahead & feel that they'll need to be actively discarded, which a passive index fund can't do. 
There are a number of individual value stocks to choose from, but I'm not savvy enough to choose them nor know when to buy & sell them. 


What percentages are you guys in equities & what type of funds/ETFs are you in?  What are your thoughts about active vs passive now?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 21, 2020, 08:43:42 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 21, 2020, 08:32:24 AM

What percentages are you guys in equities & what type of funds/ETFs are you in?  What are your thoughts about active vs passive now?

My thoughts are that I'm phenomenally ignorant about which companies are going to thrive and which are going to fail.    And that by the time I figure that out (assuming I actually could do such a thing), the smart and informed money would have already done the right thing, leaving me arriving after the party is over.   

In other words, I'm smart enough to understand my limitations and that I'm not going to be making good investments, I'll be gambling instead.   Gambling is a great way to turn a large fortune into a small one.

My solution to the above was to have multiple different income streams and not be fully dependent on any one of them.

We have rental home income, sharecropped farm income, social security and stocks/bond income.     Stocks/bonds are for long term growth for our mentally handicapped daughter's needs after we've died.   The other three provide most of the income we need, within a couple of years, they'll cover all our expenses.

I really don't have to care much about where the market is.   If it's up I might sell and buy some good real estate, or just have a good time with the proceeds.  If it's down, I'll only sell the bare minimum necessary.    Right now we're at less than a 2% SWR, when we sell our old house we'll drop back to 1%, and when we pay off the new house in about 2 years we'll be at 0%.   In 3 years when I go on Medicare, we should be at -1% SWR.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 21, 2020, 09:51:50 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 02:04:25 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 20, 2020, 01:40:55 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 20, 2020, 11:42:31 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 20, 2020, 11:36:23 AM

@Bateaux
"Laissez les bons temps rouler"

Dat's what I'm talking about chéri

That’s « éclatons- nous! » or « amusons-nous! » for anyone who needed that translated into French.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 21, 2020, 06:32:15 PM

Quote from: desk_jockey on May 20, 2020, 09:01:38 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 20, 2020, 04:54:39 PM

I’ll tell you, the only things that seems to help me when the market is being bat___ crazy is cash and diversification. And VTSAX doesn’t scratch the itch.

I just flat out don’t understand the market.  Seems that people expect the government to bail-out everyone before any situation gets to bad.  It certainly appears to be happening.  That may keep markets too expensive for a while.  I guess that will work for a time… until it doesn’t.  And then there will be hell to pay.

Another poster had a good analysis. PE ratios have been increasing over time. Maybe the market has so discounted risk that say a 4% rate of return for US stocks is just the best we’re gonna get. And prices reflect that. If so, I can make peace with that. I’ll stick to cash, foreign stocks, and other stuff and others can go for those pocket change returns with my best wishes.

That or the markets are just plain bat___ crazy.  Or both.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 22, 2020, 04:26:46 PM

@Bateaux those cruises are floating germ beds. They were that way pre-covid.   No way no how would I want to go on one now.  But since you're going to do it no matter what we say, I'm glad you're going in the heat of summer to a warm destination.   The ports and beaches will be quiet if tourism is still down.

 I think I'm brave enough to go to the airport soon, and go to a hotel, but not in a big rush to book anything.  A drive trip is coming up.  I want to go find some investment property.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 22, 2020, 06:55:05 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 22, 2020, 04:26:46 PM

@Bateaux those cruises are floating germ beds. They were that way pre-covid.   No way no how would I want to go on one now.  But since you're going to do it no matter what we say, I'm glad you're going in the heat of summer to a warm destination.   The ports and beaches will be quiet if tourism is still down.

 I think I'm brave enough to go to the airport soon, and go to a hotel, but not in a big rush to book anything.  A drive trip is coming up.  I want to go find some investment property.

The Cruise isn't till November.  Many cruises will take place prior to then.  So many test cases.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 23, 2020, 05:39:18 AM

@Bateaux I have had Covid and am, presumably, well stocked with antibodies and yet I will not ever set foot on a cruise ship.

Quite apart from the disease angle, there is also the concern that mechanical failures are quite common. See this (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-ship-idUSKCN1R40J7) or this (https://www.cruisehive.com/cruise-ship-issues-mayday-after-losing-propulsion-and-adrift/36272) or this (https://www.alaskapublic.org/2020/05/13/coast-guard-details-blackout-that-left-princess-cruise-ship-adrift-in-juneau/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 23, 2020, 07:54:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 22, 2020, 06:55:05 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 22, 2020, 04:26:46 PM

@Bateaux those cruises are floating germ beds. They were that way pre-covid.   No way no how would I want to go on one now.  But since you're going to do it no matter what we say, I'm glad you're going in the heat of summer to a warm destination.   The ports and beaches will be quiet if tourism is still down.

 I think I'm brave enough to go to the airport soon, and go to a hotel, but not in a big rush to book anything.  A drive trip is coming up.  I want to go find some investment property.

The Cruise isn't till November.  Many cruises will take place prior to then.  So many test cases.

@Bateaux is Cajun.  So he comes from a culture that sees swamps as heaven on earth and where alligator is just another phrase meaning "lunch is served."  That also means a lifelong diet of boudin, cracklins, crayfish, and jambalaya. Heart-clogging fare that would kill most of us if we ate it all the time. So a cruise probably isn't going to do him in. Cruises sure aren't my thing but hey, life was meant to be lived. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 08:10:09 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 23, 2020, 07:54:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 22, 2020, 06:55:05 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 22, 2020, 04:26:46 PM

@Bateaux those cruises are floating germ beds. They were that way pre-covid.   No way no how would I want to go on one now.  But since you're going to do it no matter what we say, I'm glad you're going in the heat of summer to a warm destination.   The ports and beaches will be quiet if tourism is still down.

 I think I'm brave enough to go to the airport soon, and go to a hotel, but not in a big rush to book anything.  A drive trip is coming up.  I want to go find some investment property.

The Cruise isn't till November.  Many cruises will take place prior to then.  So many test cases.

@Bateaux is Cajun.  So he comes from a culture that sees swamps as heaven on earth and where alligator is just another phrase meaning "lunch is served."  That also means a lifelong diet of boudin, cracklins, crayfish, and jambalaya. Heart-clogging fare that would kill most of us if we ate it all the time. So a cruise probably isn't going to do him in. Cruises sure aren't my thing but hey, life was meant to be lived.

Was the past-tense verb in that last phrase intentional? :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 23, 2020, 09:13:41 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 08:10:09 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 23, 2020, 07:54:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 22, 2020, 06:55:05 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 22, 2020, 04:26:46 PM

@Bateaux those cruises are floating germ beds. They were that way pre-covid.   No way no how would I want to go on one now.  But since you're going to do it no matter what we say, I'm glad you're going in the heat of summer to a warm destination.   The ports and beaches will be quiet if tourism is still down.

 I think I'm brave enough to go to the airport soon, and go to a hotel, but not in a big rush to book anything.  A drive trip is coming up.  I want to go find some investment property.

The Cruise isn't till November.  Many cruises will take place prior to then.  So many test cases.

@Bateaux is Cajun.  So he comes from a culture that sees swamps as heaven on earth and where alligator is just another phrase meaning "lunch is served."  That also means a lifelong diet of boudin, cracklins, crayfish, and jambalaya. Heart-clogging fare that would kill most of us if we ate it all the time. So a cruise probably isn't going to do him in. Cruises sure aren't my thing but hey, life was meant to be lived.

Was the past-tense verb in that last phrase intentional? :)

No. But I love double entendres so all the better!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: YHD on May 23, 2020, 11:08:46 AM

Market be crazy.

We're investing in artisan pot pies and $8/pound Michigan cherries.  I want to be ready when eggs are currency again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 23, 2020, 04:54:32 PM

Anybody else sensing that the whole market is going to crash soon?

I pulled another $100k out of stocks (mostly) and bonds last week so now have roughly $200k in cash. With a reduced spend cus to be honest there is nothing to spend money on right now that could be 20 years of living in cash assuming the renters stick around or we take our pensions at some point.

Clearly this is way too much to have sitting in cash but I'm just not sure where else to put it right now.

Maybe I should go out and buy his and her Corvettes..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: oldladystache on May 23, 2020, 05:09:00 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 23, 2020, 04:54:32 PM

Anybody else sensing that the whole market is going to crash soon?

I pulled another $100k out of stocks (mostly) and bonds last week so now have roughly $200k in cash. With a reduced spend cus to be honest there is nothing to spend money on right now that could be 20 years of living in cash assuming the renters stick around or we take our pensions at some point.

Clearly this is way too much to have sitting in cash but I'm just not sure where else to put it right now.

Maybe I should go out and buy his and her Corvettes..:)

I'm in kinda the same situation. I have over 300k waiting. And my neighbors are talking about selling their beautiful old Corvette. Does a 75 year old woman need a Corvette? I don't think so.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on May 23, 2020, 05:20:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 23, 2020, 04:54:32 PM

Anybody else sensing that the whole market is going to crash soon?

I pulled another $100k out of stocks (mostly) and bonds last week so now have roughly $200k in cash. With a reduced spend cus to be honest there is nothing to spend money on right now that could be 20 years of living in cash assuming the renters stick around or we take our pensions at some point.

Clearly this is way too much to have sitting in cash but I'm just not sure where else to put it right now.

Maybe I should go out and buy his and her Corvettes..:)

I don't know about a crash but market is definitely range bound with 2950 break point upward.  It doesn't feel right to me.  So I will stick to my view that I posted previously quoted below.  I rebalanced when SP500 2939, market went down after that but not enough to do anything. But I do have a conservative AA - equity glidepath.   I wouldn't mind my equities allocation being higher but I can't justify it now. 

It wouldn't surprise me one bit that we see a jump in cases that re-spins the fear and market drops.   Oh wait, Moderna had positive indications from 8 of 45 vaccine trial subjects...nevermind that there is no discussion on the other 37 or that 8 doesn't even qualify as a meaningful statistical sample.  Oh yeah, the head of the White house corona task force was named, the data of the 8 subjects came out days later, the stock went up 4x and the guy is now as $10mil of Moderna stock.   Not bad, insider info and corruption is great. 

Forget all that, and go with "Don't fight the fed!"

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on April 29, 2020, 01:12:04 PM

So I rebalanced as the  markets went down and now they are up a bit since and I will be rolling out of that money as long as the market doesn't crash down by the end of the day.   No tax hit bc as the markets fell I also did a bunch of tax loss harvesting so that will offset the new gains.   The selling will basically get me back to my AA +/- so its not like I am selling everything, but Per my post below from a week ago I just don't understand these levels given the hit to the economy now and into the foreseeable future, I see that I am not alone in that feeling. 

I guess people that can spend will probably go back to it but ignoring the millions of people that will remain unemployed or in a precarious financial position how does it go back to normal anytime soon if social distancing will still be the priority. i.e. a restaurant or movie theater can't just create space to keep people separated, that will be a lot of empty seats. 

I guess the main caveat is "Don't fight the fed"

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on April 23, 2020, 01:47:50 PM

As for the markets, I clearly don't understand and don't time, just stick to my AA which is conservative.  But markets were definitely stretched going into this year for sure.  I felt before the QE/Rate cuts in 2019 that SP500 at 2900 was the high point of being fairly valued bc earnings didn't grow so I am really struggling to understand how it being at 2750-2850 now is appropriate, I mean I like it higher than lower, but I just don't get it.  Below is what I think of SP500 - $2600 or less is where I think it should be right now and honestly $2300 didn't and still doesn't seem crazy to me.    Not much I will do with it but I use it as a guide post.   

SP500 earnings  with 20PE IMO appropriate
2016...……………………………………………………………...$101...………………..$2020
2017...……………………………………………………………...$115...………………..$2300
2018 (tax cut, no growth otherwise)...……………$136...………………..$2720
2019 (no growth)...………………………………………….$140...………………..$2800
2020 (original est)…………………………………………...$162...………………..$3240
2020 (revised) ????………..doesn't matter, pe will be really high
2021???? (20% drop from 2020 est)………………$129...…………………$2592

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 23, 2020, 06:07:47 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 23, 2020, 04:54:32 PM

Anybody else sensing that the whole market is going to crash soon?

I pulled another $100k out of stocks (mostly) and bonds last week so now have roughly $200k in cash. With a reduced spend cus to be honest there is nothing to spend money on right now that could be 20 years of living in cash assuming the renters stick around or we take our pensions at some point.

Clearly this is way too much to have sitting in cash but I'm just not sure where else to put it right now.

Maybe I should go out and buy his and her Corvettes..:)

I’ve been expecting a crash for awhile. Doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. The CAPE yield right now is less than 3%. That’s not enough to bother with in my view given a consumer based economy with 20% unemployment. I’ll pay off the mortgage first, thanks. Lots of folks just buying in and I wish them the best. It’s not for me.

Only $200k cash? Really? You probably need to up your game.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 23, 2020, 08:18:49 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 23, 2020, 06:07:47 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 23, 2020, 04:54:32 PM

Anybody else sensing that the whole market is going to crash soon?

I pulled another $100k out of stocks (mostly) and bonds last week so now have roughly $200k in cash. With a reduced spend cus to be honest there is nothing to spend money on right now that could be 20 years of living in cash assuming the renters stick around or we take our pensions at some point.

Clearly this is way too much to have sitting in cash but I'm just not sure where else to put it right now.

Maybe I should go out and buy his and her Corvettes..:)

I’ve been expecting a crash for awhile. Doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. The CAPE yield right now is less than 3%. That’s not enough to bother with in my view given a consumer based economy with 20% unemployment. I’ll pay off the mortgage first, thanks. Lots of folks just buying in and I wish them the best. It’s not for me.

Only $200k cash? Really? You probably need to up your game.

I was itchy to move more money out of stocks this week.  But, I was spending most of my time planning my luxury cruise.   No I haven't booked it yet.  Anyway, I think the market will drop bigly again.  We're priced for perfection and there is just too much wrong that won't soon be fixed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 23, 2020, 09:48:12 PM

I sold everything yesterday.  Had some in an S&P 500 index & a couple stocks.   The individual stocks made me nervous & I'm not sure the broad index is such a good choice either.   


I recently discovered ARK funds, which invests in disruptive technologies.  I'm considering trying them after we see which way the overall market decides to go.  (ARKW is their main fund & ARKG is the one that's doing best this year.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 11:06:26 PM

Wow.   Simply wow.

I've been reading MMM since 2012.

I've never seen so many informed people lose their nerve.    Despite learning that the market has its ups and downs, despite the 4% rule working 95% and a host of things one can do to stave off that 5% defeat, I'm seeing gobs of folks cash out their portfolios.

At least learn the FDIC rules if you're going to keep it in cash so if the banks fail the government will be on the hook for the lost cash.

Me?    I'm not doing a darn thing financially that I didn't plan to do -- other than not travel as much for the obvious safety reasons.

My index funds are still were they were back in January and I expect they'll stay that way.   


Just make damn sure that you are acting out of real knowledge instead of panic.  Fear is the portfolio killer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 23, 2020, 11:56:54 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 11:06:26 PM

Wow.   Simply wow.

I've been reading MMM since 2012.

I've never seen so many informed people lose their nerve.    Despite learning that the market has its ups and downs, despite the 4% rule working 95% and a host of things one can do to stave off that 5% defeat, I'm seeing gobs of folks cash out their portfolios.

At least learn the FDIC rules if you're going to keep it in cash so if the banks fail the government will be on the hook for the lost cash.

Me?    I'm not doing a darn thing financially that I didn't plan to do -- other than not travel as much for the obvious safety reasons.

My index funds are still were they were back in January and I expect they'll stay that way.   


Just make damn sure that you are acting out of real knowledge instead of panic.  Fear is the portfolio killer.

We fear the coming bear market and recession.  In 2018 we had a correction bailed out by the Fed.  This Spring we had a rapid correction followed by massive Fed stimulus.  That temporarily has proped up the market.  But where are we now?  Interest rates globally are going negative.  No more rate cut boosts are left.  Massive tax cuts were already issued during the bull market.  Can we dare issue further tax cuts while ammasing such huge debts?  More bankruptcies and more job losses are coming.  The peak of job losses will likely reach 50 million.   Eventually the bleak economy will impact the stock market.  Will we see 50 or 60 percent losses that threaten our retirement for a decade or more?  Yes, you mention FDIC.  Bank failures may come.  Those of us holding Bond funds could see big losses if interest rates do rise.   A young person with a good job may be able to take that kind of risk.  Most of us in this thread cannot.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 24, 2020, 01:39:47 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 11:06:26 PM

Wow.   Simply wow.

I've been reading MMM since 2012.

I've never seen so many informed people lose their nerve.    Despite learning that the market has its ups and downs, despite the 4% rule working 95% and a host of things one can do to stave off that 5% defeat, I'm seeing gobs of folks cash out their portfolios.

At least learn the FDIC rules if you're going to keep it in cash so if the banks fail the government will be on the hook for the lost cash.

Me?    I'm not doing a darn thing financially that I didn't plan to do -- other than not travel as much for the obvious safety reasons.

My index funds are still were they were back in January and I expect they'll stay that way.   


Just make damn sure that you are acting out of real knowledge instead of panic.  Fear is the portfolio killer.

If it's any consolation, I'm not doing anything.

However, there is a case to be made that once you have ENOUGH, it's okay to move out of equities and take a preservation of capitol stance. i.e. you've won the game, why keep playing? I'm not sure if that's the case for everyone here who has admitted to selling.

It is not our long-term plan, therefore it's business as usual at our house. Ho-hum.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 24, 2020, 04:01:25 AM

I'm with @SwordGuy and @Dicey on this. I haven't done anything except to increase my monthly post-tax SP500 index purchase by 50%. And I don't plan to do anything else.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 24, 2020, 07:13:52 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 11:06:26 PM

Wow.   Simply wow.

I've been reading MMM since 2012.

I've never seen so many informed people lose their nerve.    Despite learning that the market has its ups and downs, despite the 4% rule working 95% and a host of things one can do to stave off that 5% defeat, I'm seeing gobs of folks cash out their portfolios.

At least learn the FDIC rules if you're going to keep it in cash so if the banks fail the government will be on the hook for the lost cash.

Me?    I'm not doing a darn thing financially that I didn't plan to do -- other than not travel as much for the obvious safety reasons.

My index funds are still were they were back in January and I expect they'll stay that way.   


Just make damn sure that you are acting out of real knowledge instead of panic.  Fear is the portfolio killer.

Who's panicked?  I'm not 100% certain, but I think my family and I have pretty much won this game.  Absent some exceptionally stupid moves or a comet strike, I don't see us being forced to live in our cars or to take up dumpster diving.   

This is not the craziest market I've ever seen.  That honor was taken by the Dotcom bubble. But this is in the running for the second craziest.  Low risk premiums in the teeth of very obvious economic problems don't give me much reason for wanting to own US equities.  Nerve or not.  Truth be told, I'd much rather be heavier US equity exposure*.  But I can't reconcile what I see in the way of expected returns with that. I like risk, but I expect to be paid for it.  A less than 3% CAPE yield for the SP 5+495 just ain't cutting it. Even paying off my mortgage looks better than that. 

*(I'm slowly increasing international equities exposure.)       

 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 24, 2020, 08:13:17 AM

Although money is money, everyone's situation is unique.


I received the bulk of my liquid assets in 2018.  Using a start date of Jan 2018 til Apr 2020 with portfoliovisualizer VTSAX hasn't held up so well.  From what I can gather, it's over-diversified and the laggers reduce the gains of the winners.  I think there will be a lot more laggers coming out of this current mess.  The winners tend to outperform & keep getting farther ahead of the pack.  VTSAX is behind VOO, and VOO is behind VUG, which is behind VGT.  If you plug those into portfolioviz you have to go back a very long time for VTSAX to even get ahead of VOO/SPY.


We just experienced a large correction, and an even larger one is quite likely.  It's given me the opportunity to examine the potential rebound of various funds & stocks as they have bounced or haven't bounced.  I have decided to reposition myself.  I agree that part of this was an emotional decision, but I have also spent a lot of time reading & studying investing and market info.  I'm not telling anyone to follow my actions, but just letting others that have chosen to change course know that they aren't alone. 


This is similar to taking a long trip.  We've driven through a major storm and some of us have decided to take a pit stop and check out the situation before moving on down the road.  I'm just grabbing a coffee, a snack, checking the load, checking the weather report, and taking a look at the map.  It's not a race, and I don't mind if some folks get ahead of me. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: oldladystache on May 24, 2020, 08:20:25 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 11:06:26 PM

Wow.   Simply wow.

I've been reading MMM since 2012.

I've never seen so many informed people lose their nerve.    Despite learning that the market has its ups and downs, despite the 4% rule working 95% and a host of things one can do to stave off that 5% defeat, I'm seeing gobs of folks cash out their portfolios.

At least learn the FDIC rules if you're going to keep it in cash so if the banks fail the government will be on the hook for the lost cash.

Me?    I'm not doing a darn thing financially that I didn't plan to do -- other than not travel as much for the obvious safety reasons.

My index funds are still were they were back in January and I expect they'll stay that way.   


Just make damn sure that you are acting out of real knowledge instead of panic.  Fear is the portfolio killer.

I haven't lost my nerve. I have more than I will ever need. Having won the game I'm backing off a bit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 24, 2020, 08:53:03 AM

I'm not planning to sell all stock exposure.  Maybe get down to 25 or 30 percent.   Following MMM doesn't require us to keep our money at risk when we have won the game.  We can pick up our chips and cash out.  I plan to always have at least 500K at risk. That's no small amount.  That represents 20 to 25 percent for us.  Are we giving up the opportunity to make 5 million or 10 million from our portfolios?  Maybe.   Most of us won't spend our 2 million.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 24, 2020, 10:24:43 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 11:06:26 PM

...
I've never seen so many informed people lose their nerve.    Despite learning that the market has its ups and downs, despite the 4% rule working 95% and a host of things one can do to stave off that 5% defeat, I'm seeing gobs of folks cash out their portfolios.
...

Pretty sure we are all in different places on our journey.  As others have said, once you've won the game, you don't need to be 100% equities for their 30 year out-performance.  What am I going to do with another million that I can't already do, other than leave a bigger number behind?  I know I can ER comfortably now, but maybe that would be stressful if we had a correction AND I lost my job.  So yeah, I'm more conservatively invested right now just in case there is a sequence return issue created that I could have avoided. 

I'm hoping to get exciting opportunities again at some point - good prices on real estate, better valuations on company future earnings (CAPE ratio), etc. - but I'm not feeling the distressed sales yet and so yeah, I'm defensively invested with lots of cash and stable value.  It's one of my favorite things about FI, being comfortable with having 'enough' that I can wait if I don't like what is being offered.  And if I'm wrong, no my portfolio won't get 'killed', it'll just bump along at a lower growth rate.  Hasn't bothered me for about 2 years now (I did my selling in the fall of 2018 at S&P 2800), so I don't think it will bother me more now that the real economy is much worse and valuations are the same or higher. 

Bottom line for me, I'm doing what I think is best, not just throwing my FI in to harm's way because it'll outperform in the long run.  Life is looking a little iffy in the short run.

With that said, anyone else notice that groceries are getting more expensive?  We paid $7 for 4 burgers!  Probably not a bad thing we are used to restaurant spending, cutting back on that isn't saving as much as it used to.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 24, 2020, 12:04:19 PM

Hard times ahead after the virus thing is over?  Some say - not hardly.  Here's a Forbes article:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richkarlgaard/2020/04/06/five-bold-predictions-for-the-post-covid-19-world/#1981dd897def (https://www.forbes.com/sites/richkarlgaard/2020/04/06/five-bold-predictions-for-the-post-covid-19-world/#1981dd897def)

He predicts inflation. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 24, 2020, 12:50:45 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 24, 2020, 10:24:43 AM

With that said, anyone else notice that groceries are getting more expensive?  We paid $7 for 4 burgers!  Probably not a bad thing we are used to restaurant spending, cutting back on that isn't saving as much as it used to.

And ……….. that would be why having so much in cash can be costly...   because inflation can eat you alive.   Businesses will need to charge more because they are taking a productivity hit and an expenses hit. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 24, 2020, 01:17:00 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 24, 2020, 12:50:45 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 24, 2020, 10:24:43 AM

With that said, anyone else notice that groceries are getting more expensive?  We paid $7 for 4 burgers!  Probably not a bad thing we are used to restaurant spending, cutting back on that isn't saving as much as it used to.

And ……….. that would be why having so much in cash can be costly...   because inflation can eat you alive.   Businesses will need to charge more because they are taking a productivity hit and an expenses hit.

I don’t think this is typical inflation though, and I have plenty of short term belt tightening I’m willing to do to preserve cash.  I plan to invest my cash if I see an opportunity, but I don’t think companies will be increasing earnings (as typically happens during inflation) anytime soon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on May 24, 2020, 01:32:26 PM

The whining on this thread, of all threads, is pathetic.  I'm with @SwordGuy  and @Dicey.   

Go  see the people actually having balls and FIREing  THIS year , like NOW in the 2020 FIRE Cohort Thread.
I'm not implying that _I_ would FIRE now, my balls are small.

I think ?someone? had a quote, in their sig line, from Sol to the effect that, "We got here doing certain things,  we will continue doing them."

Edit:  removed username that I though had the Sol quote I can't find it.   Are sig lines searched in the forum search engine?
Found a similar quote from sol  "We're not looking to time the market now, and we got here by not looking to time the market over the past decade."
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-best-post-i-saw-today-on-the-mr-money-mustache-forums-was/msg2368199/#msg2368199
. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 24, 2020, 02:09:12 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 24, 2020, 10:24:43 AM

With that said, anyone else notice that groceries are getting more expensive?  We paid $7 for 4 burgers!  Probably not a bad thing we are used to restaurant spending, cutting back on that isn't saving as much as it used to.

Yup.  Paid $5.99 a pound for hamburger today.  One of my neighbors keeps on telling me that squirrel is pretty good. The other white meat.  Anybody ever try it?   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 24, 2020, 02:10:54 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on May 24, 2020, 01:32:26 PM

The whining on this thread, of all threads, is pathetic.  I'm with @SwordGuy  and @Dicey.   

Go  see the people actually having balls and FIREing  THIS year , like NOW in the 2020 FIRE Cohort Thread.
I'm not implying that _I_ would FIRE now, my balls are small.

I think ?someone? had a quote, in their sig line, from Sol to the effect that, "We got here doing certain things,  we will continue doing them."

Edit:  removed username that I though had the Sol quote I can't find it.   Are sig lines searched in the forum search engine?
Found a similar quote from sol  "We're not looking to time the market now, and we got here by not looking to time the market over the past decade."
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-best-post-i-saw-today-on-the-mr-money-mustache-forums-was/msg2368199/#msg2368199
.

To each their own, we are all expressing our feelings and opinions.  You have yours, I have mine - but I have not experienced any whining - so please show me an example, unless you are responding to my post.  I am still very comfortable with my life, despite your talk of me (since I'm in the whiner camp) having small testicles :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 24, 2020, 02:12:46 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 24, 2020, 12:50:45 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 24, 2020, 10:24:43 AM

With that said, anyone else notice that groceries are getting more expensive?  We paid $7 for 4 burgers!  Probably not a bad thing we are used to restaurant spending, cutting back on that isn't saving as much as it used to.

And ……….. that would be why having so much in cash can be costly...   because inflation can eat you alive.   Businesses will need to charge more because they are taking a productivity hit and an expenses hit.

Not having cash can be very costly as well.  Lost investment opportunities because you've blown your cash elsewhere. There aren't a lot of opportunities right now, but that should change.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 24, 2020, 02:21:15 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on May 24, 2020, 01:32:26 PM

The whining on this thread, of all threads, is pathetic.  I'm with @SwordGuy  and @Dicey.   

Go  see the people actually having balls and FIREing  THIS year , like NOW in the 2020 FIRE Cohort Thread.
I'm not implying that _I_ would FIRE now, my balls are small.

I think ?someone? had a quote, in their sig line, from Sol to the effect that, "We got here doing certain things,  we will continue doing them."

Edit:  removed username that I though had the Sol quote I can't find it.   Are sig lines searched in the forum search engine?
Found a similar quote from sol  "We're not looking to time the market now, and we got here by not looking to time the market over the past decade."
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-best-post-i-saw-today-on-the-mr-money-mustache-forums-was/msg2368199/#msg2368199
.

It seems to me that the folks on this topic are pretty well positioned to take or leave stocks as they see fit.  They're also well positioned to ignore what's fashionable in investment circles and march to their own drummer. 

It's really kind of interesting when you compare this topic to the race from $1 mil to $2 mil with folks posting the latest incremental change to their net worth.  Maybe I've missed it, but the folks on this thread don't seem bother much.

As for whining, I am whining.  About the outrageous cost of hamburger.  And bananas.  They went up 10 cents a pound! It's thievery I tell you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Mr. Green on May 24, 2020, 03:30:02 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 11:06:26 PM

Wow.   Simply wow.

I've been reading MMM since 2012.

I've never seen so many informed people lose their nerve.    Despite learning that the market has its ups and downs, despite the 4% rule working 95% and a host of things one can do to stave off that 5% defeat, I'm seeing gobs of folks cash out their portfolios.

At least learn the FDIC rules if you're going to keep it in cash so if the banks fail the government will be on the hook for the lost cash.

Me?    I'm not doing a darn thing financially that I didn't plan to do -- other than not travel as much for the obvious safety reasons.

My index funds are still were they were back in January and I expect they'll stay that way.   


Just make damn sure that you are acting out of real knowledge instead of panic.  Fear is the portfolio killer.

When the panic based selling happens, that's when the buy and hold investor makes their money. Ask anyone who "lost their shirt" in the 2008 recession and they'll tell you a story about how they sold. For us, having won the game includes the returns generated by staying invested. If we sold low now because we anticipated a crash that never happened and missed a subsequent run up it might be a good way to turn that win into a loss.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 24, 2020, 04:04:35 PM

In February I  was very aggressively in stocks.  Luckily my company has a plant in China and the owner is a former US ambassador to China.  In January we started getting company emails preparing us for the coming pandemic.  I took advantage of that information and moved to a position where about 2/3 of our accounts are protected.  Now I'm thinking of getting a little bit more conservative.   Like I'd mentioned leave about 20 to 25 percent in play. We are going to drop again in coming months.  My company now is warning of lackluster sales and low capacity usage going forward.  Like the market, these global conglomerates look months and years out.  The recovery is going to be slow.  Many companies are going bankrupt.   The way business is conducted globally has changed.  I've got too many fun things planned to loose it at the end. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 24, 2020, 04:15:18 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on May 24, 2020, 01:32:26 PM

- SNIP -

Go  see the people actually having balls and FIREing  THIS year , like NOW in the 2020 FIRE Cohort Thread.
I'm not implying that _I_ would FIRE now, my balls are small.

- SNIP -

Yeh!  Them people are sumthin'!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 24, 2020, 05:24:05 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 24, 2020, 12:04:19 PM

Hard times ahead after the virus thing is over?  Some say - not hardly.  Here's a Forbes article:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richkarlgaard/2020/04/06/five-bold-predictions-for-the-post-covid-19-world/#1981dd897def (https://www.forbes.com/sites/richkarlgaard/2020/04/06/five-bold-predictions-for-the-post-covid-19-world/#1981dd897def)

He predicts inflation.

Maybe. I wouldn’t bet supper on it. Japan hasn’t been able to maintain inflation for years now and their debt to GDP is twice that of the US.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 24, 2020, 05:58:22 PM

Drowning my sorrows in a CROWDED bayou bar.  Listening to live music with big ole Margaritas.  Not a mask in site.  Life is good!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: YHD on May 24, 2020, 06:37:03 PM

I’m in poultry futures.  As good as anything.  I can at least eat my losses

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 24, 2020, 06:38:47 PM

Quote from: YHD on May 24, 2020, 06:37:03 PM

I’m in poultry futures.  As good as anything.  I can at least eat my losses

I would suggest investing in pork belly futures instead.  That way, no matter what happens, you'll be bringing home the bacon!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on May 24, 2020, 06:48:02 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 24, 2020, 02:09:12 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 24, 2020, 10:24:43 AM

With that said, anyone else notice that groceries are getting more expensive?  We paid $7 for 4 burgers!  Probably not a bad thing we are used to restaurant spending, cutting back on that isn't saving as much as it used to.

Yup.  Paid $5.99 a pound for hamburger today.  One of my neighbors keeps on telling me that squirrel is pretty good. The other white meat.  Anybody ever try it?   

Yes, more like chicken thigh.....     See https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mustachian-people-problems-(just-for-fun)/msg2595029/#msg2595029       and subsequent posts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 24, 2020, 07:19:03 PM

Second bug Magarutta or is it Margarita.  Anyway, I'm about done.  Told the wife to get whatever surgery and shit she needs quick.  I'm ready to do stupid shit the rest of my life.  30 plus years of being responsible is enough!  Putting my hardhat on the gotdamned mantle.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 24, 2020, 07:45:23 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 24, 2020, 05:58:22 PM

Drowning my sorrows in a CROWDED bayou bar.  Listening to live music with big ole Margaritas.  Not a mask in site.  Life is good!

Sounds like fun. Reckless and insane, but fun. Hopefully they pour ‘em strong.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 24, 2020, 08:00:17 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 24, 2020, 07:45:23 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 24, 2020, 05:58:22 PM

Drowning my sorrows in a CROWDED bayou bar.  Listening to live music with big ole Margaritas.  Not a mask in site.  Life is good!

Sounds like fun. Reckless and insane, but fun. Hopefully they pour ‘em strong.

Building my immunity for the Cruise.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 24, 2020, 08:19:42 PM

Bateaux,


You're our Big Balls member!! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 24, 2020, 08:26:05 PM

So you guys did give me some things to chew on.

I currently sit at about 75/15/10 (stocks/bond funds/cash) I am tempted to take some more off the table and I might go 70/15/15.

Why not 50/15/35..??

I could but then again I think.. Wait a minute.. OK yeah I've won the game but then the 2008 deal was a 4 year ish event. The Great Depression was a 7.5 year event (counting deflation).

Assuming this is the same as the GD.. 7 years or so really is not a long time to wait so why not continue to play the game?

Heck, with pensions and SS we don't even need a stash at all!

In other words it really doesn't matter what I do honestly... With the caveat that more $$ is always better than less$$.

Hmm...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 24, 2020, 09:04:28 PM

Here's an interesting article:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-19/extreme-behavior-is-on-display-everywhere-in-the-stock-market?mc_cid=760335f1a5&mc_eid=bf194a7bec

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 25, 2020, 02:40:21 PM

I’m very surprised at some of the conversation here also. I am one of those in the 2020 cohort. My last day of work was 13 March, three days before lockdown took place in my area. I am holding steady, though granted it is easier as my husband has one more year of work before also pulling the plug.

Clearly written in our investment policy statement is that we do not make changes to our investing strategy or AA based on what is happening in the markets, with the exception of rebalancing back to our target asset allocation. We did rebalance once when things were near the low. We make changes to our asset allocation based on our life events. Right now we have reached our FI number and are at 40% bonds because we are implementing a bond tent sort of strategy. As others have said, we can dial back the risk in a way because we have reached our number, though that is a temporary thing because inflation and portfolio longevity will still be a threat later down the line.

Yep, this totally could get a lot worse. I can’t predict that nor when it may get better. I am notoriously awful at trying to predict what stocks will do. Which is why we have the plan that we stick to regardless of what the gut says.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 25, 2020, 04:36:27 PM

@ysette9  At 40% bonds, I don't think I'd be changing my AA either, but were you always at 60/40 or did you sell to get there?  I think most folks were at 80 - 100% equities and sold a bit after the rebound.  I put in some of my cash at S&P 2400 and had planned to put more in, but now that the market is back up in nosebleed CAPE territory, I'm happy to stay at 50/50 with an expectation risk / reward will be better and I can be more aggressive when others are actually panicked (and 2Q looks to be a doozy of an earnings season since it has the full lock-down effect, as opposed to last quarter) and offering some bargains...  And if there are no bargains, it's not like 1980-style double digit inflation is eating my cash.  I'm equally as worried about my bond funds losing value as cash losing value due to inflation. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 25, 2020, 05:37:44 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 25, 2020, 04:36:27 PM

@ysette9  At 40% bonds, I don't think I'd be changing my AA either, but were you always at 60/40 or did you sell to get there?  I think most folks were at 80 - 100% equities and sold a bit after the rebound.  I put in some of my cash at S&P 2400 and had planned to put more in, but now that the market is back up in nosebleed CAPE territory, I'm happy to stay at 50/50 with an expectation risk / reward will be better and I can be more aggressive when others are actually panicked (and 2Q looks to be a doozy of an earnings season since it has the full lock-down effect, as opposed to last quarter) and offering some bargains...  And if there are no bargains, it's not like 1980-style double digit inflation is eating my cash.  I'm equally as worried about my bond funds losing value as cash losing value due to inflation.

We have been slowly getting closer to 40% over the past two years. We reached it somewhere around the end of last year as that coincided with when we reached our FI number. We sold stocks to buy bonds in order to do this. It was all in tax-protected accounts until we ran out of non-Roth space. Then we opened a taxable bond account and funded that with ongoing contributions until we reached the goal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 25, 2020, 07:54:34 PM

I’m actually surprised* that the conversation that we’re having on this topic isn’t more widespread across the entire forum. Folks who are seeking FI are definitely following a road less traveled.

 I just find it very interesting that while most of us probably reject the prevailing consumption narrative, how many of us accept the prevailing buy-and-hold equities narrative.

*(well, not THAT surprised.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 25, 2020, 08:19:50 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 25, 2020, 07:54:34 PM

I’m actually surprised* that the conversation that we’re having on this topic isn’t more widespread across the entire forum. Folks who are seeking FI are definitely following a road less traveled.

 I just find it very interesting that while most of us probably reject the prevailing consumption narrative, how many of us accept the prevailing buy-and-hold equities narrative.

*(well, not THAT surprised.)

I don’t think we reject common narratives for the joy of being contrarian. I would like to think that we are logical enough to see what the preponderance of data is pointing to and choose to follow that. So if psychological research shows that more consumption doesn’t lead to more happiness, we stop to question bigger/better/more. If research shows that stock picking and timing the market are usually losing strategies, we can set our ego aside and listen to wiser voices.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 26, 2020, 09:01:54 AM

Markets are way up.  Going to have to decide if I have the courage to sell stocks before the end of the day.  Asian markets were up big last night and closed big.  Greed is probably going to push me a little further up the mountain before bailing.  It's still about the virus right now.  Any news on the positive side right now is pushing markets ever steeper and narrow.  The worst thing in coming months may be the virus just going away.  When there is no more virus, then you have to actually look at the economic picture.  It's a thing that turns your head, like a motorcycle crash scene.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 26, 2020, 11:10:44 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 26, 2020, 09:01:54 AM

Markets are way up.  Going to have to decide if I have the courage to sell stocks before the end of the day.  Asian markets were up big last night and closed big.  Greed is probably going to push me a little further up the mountain before bailing.  It's still about the virus right now.  Any news on the positive side right now is pushing markets ever steeper and narrow.  The worst thing in coming months may be the virus just going away.  When there is no more virus, then you have to actually look at the economic picture.  It's a thing that turns your head, like a motorcycle crash scene.

Not to single you out, but these are probably the posts us thread folk are being criticized for.  I certainly don't make daily decisions on if I'll buy or sell no matter what the market did that day.  The daily walk of the market is crazy, but just because it was up big so far today does not mean we won't be even higher by the end of June - if the Fed keeps up the stimulus, assets will keep soaking up the money in the form of higher prices.  Even bankrupt oil and gas companies are rallying today.  I just think that overall, the market fundamentals can not support current prices indefinitely and I have no idea when / if the Fed will pull back their support and just how far stocks will fall when that happens.

I'm guessing a lot of the excess money is going in the real estate investing because that is also holding up surprisingly well here in Houston, despite a dismal industry outlook.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 26, 2020, 01:58:44 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 26, 2020, 09:01:54 AM

Markets are way up.  Going to have to decide if I have the courage to sell stocks before the end of the day.  Asian markets were up big last night and closed big.  Greed is probably going to push me a little further up the mountain before bailing.  It's still about the virus right now.  Any news on the positive side right now is pushing markets ever steeper and narrow.  The worst thing in coming months may be the virus just going away.  When there is no more virus, then you have to actually look at the economic picture.  It's a thing that turns your head, like a motorcycle crash scene.

I put in a limit order to get rid of a stinker I should’ve never bought. To date I’ve just hung onto it as a good lesson in humility. If someone really wants it though, they can have it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 26, 2020, 02:06:12 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 26, 2020, 09:01:54 AM

Markets are way up.  Going to have to decide if I have the courage to sell stocks before the end of the day.  Asian markets were up big last night and closed big.  Greed is probably going to push me a little further up the mountain before bailing.  It's still about the virus right now.  Any news on the positive side right now is pushing markets ever steeper and narrow.  The worst thing in coming months may be the virus just going away.  When there is no more virus, then you have to actually look at the economic picture.  It's a thing that turns your head, like a motorcycle crash scene.

I put a limit order in for a stinker that I’ve taken a bath on. I kept it as a good lesson in humility. But heck if some fool investor wants it for more than I think it’s worth, I’ll sell.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 26, 2020, 04:06:29 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 26, 2020, 11:10:44 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 26, 2020, 09:01:54 AM

Markets are way up.  Going to have to decide if I have the courage to sell stocks before the end of the day.  Asian markets were up big last night and closed big.  Greed is probably going to push me a little further up the mountain before bailing.  It's still about the virus right now.  Any news on the positive side right now is pushing markets ever steeper and narrow.  The worst thing in coming months may be the virus just going away.  When there is no more virus, then you have to actually look at the economic picture.  It's a thing that turns your head, like a motorcycle crash scene.

Not to single you out, but these are probably the posts us thread folk are being criticized for.  I certainly don't make daily decisions on if I'll buy or sell no matter what the market did that day.  The daily walk of the market is crazy, but just because it was up big so far today does not mean we won't be even higher by the end of June - if the Fed keeps up the stimulus, assets will keep soaking up the money in the form of higher prices.  Even bankrupt oil and gas companies are rallying today.  I just think that overall, the market fundamentals can not support current prices indefinitely and I have no idea when / if the Fed will pull back their support and just how far stocks will fall when that happens.

I'm guessing a lot of the excess money is going in the real estate investing because that is also holding up surprisingly well here in Houston, despite a dismal industry outlook.

I hardly make any moves outside of the occasional rebalance.  I'm a bit emotional and confused with the nonchalant attitude of the entire country.  I don't want to see panic, but maybe some healthy concern for our current state.  I haven't made any moves yet.  I'll pipe down a bit.  I've been venting a few too many frustrations here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 26, 2020, 04:17:54 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 26, 2020, 04:06:29 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 26, 2020, 11:10:44 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 26, 2020, 09:01:54 AM

Markets are way up.  Going to have to decide if I have the courage to sell stocks before the end of the day.  Asian markets were up big last night and closed big.  Greed is probably going to push me a little further up the mountain before bailing.  It's still about the virus right now.  Any news on the positive side right now is pushing markets ever steeper and narrow.  The worst thing in coming months may be the virus just going away.  When there is no more virus, then you have to actually look at the economic picture.  It's a thing that turns your head, like a motorcycle crash scene.

Not to single you out, but these are probably the posts us thread folk are being criticized for.  I certainly don't make daily decisions on if I'll buy or sell no matter what the market did that day.  The daily walk of the market is crazy, but just because it was up big so far today does not mean we won't be even higher by the end of June - if the Fed keeps up the stimulus, assets will keep soaking up the money in the form of higher prices.  Even bankrupt oil and gas companies are rallying today.  I just think that overall, the market fundamentals can not support current prices indefinitely and I have no idea when / if the Fed will pull back their support and just how far stocks will fall when that happens.

I'm guessing a lot of the excess money is going in the real estate investing because that is also holding up surprisingly well here in Houston, despite a dismal industry outlook.

I hardly make any moves outside of the occasional rebalance.  I'm a bit emotional and confused with the nonchalant attitude of the entire country.  I don't want to see panic, but maybe some healthy concern for our current state.  I haven't made any moves yet.  I'll pipe down a bit.  I've been venting a few too many frustrations here.

You’re just giving voice to your concerns which happen to be shared by others.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: libertarian4321 on May 26, 2020, 04:25:55 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 11:06:26 PM

Wow.   Simply wow.

I've been reading MMM since 2012.

I've never seen so many informed people lose their nerve.    Despite learning that the market has its ups and downs, despite the 4% rule working 95% and a host of things one can do to stave off that 5% defeat, I'm seeing gobs of folks cash out their portfolios.

At least learn the FDIC rules if you're going to keep it in cash so if the banks fail the government will be on the hook for the lost cash.

Me?    I'm not doing a darn thing financially that I didn't plan to do -- other than not travel as much for the obvious safety reasons.

My index funds are still were they were back in January and I expect they'll stay that way.   


Just make damn sure that you are acting out of real knowledge instead of panic.  Fear is the portfolio killer.

I think the nervous/panicky people are the ones posting.  Those of us who see this as just another of many "crises" we will face over an investing lifetime are just calmly doing what we've always done- steadily saving and investing for the long term.

COVID ain't the end of the world, folks.  Life will go on.  30 years from now, this "crisis" will a lot like the '87 crisis- a barely noticeable blip on a long term stock market chart.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: FiveSigmas on May 26, 2020, 04:37:26 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 26, 2020, 02:06:12 PM

I put a limit order in for a stinker that I’ve taken a bath on. I kept it as a good lesson in humility. But heck if some fool investor wants it for more than I think it’s worth, I’ll sell.

Never bathe with a stinker. In the end you both end up smelling a little.

Then again, what do I know? With index funds you’re virtually guaranteed to get a little pee in the water.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 26, 2020, 06:59:53 PM

@Bateaux ,

It's not that I don't have concerns, I do.   I would have to be pretty darn clueless not to have some concerns.

The question is, what do I do about those concerns?

Should I sell at the right time and then buy back in at the right time?   Sure as hell should!

If only I knew when that was.  But I don't.   And it turns out that a host of very smart people have worked very hard to figure out how to know and, as far as we know, no one has truly figured it out (or shared it with us if they did).

What's more, smart as I am, even if I devoted 100% of my energies to trying to figure it out, I won't figure it out in time -- if ever.   

Should I buy "the right investment" instead of the very diversified investments I already have?  You bet!

Same problem!    I don't know what those investments are!    And I won't know in time for exactly the same reasons.   I'm just a hard working shmuck who saved a bunch of money.  What the hell do I know about exactly which companies are going to thrive and which are not?   Hell, I thought we were due for a major recession in 2012 and never changed my mind, and here we are 8 years later and we may or may not get a major one lasting a few years.

I don't know what's going to happen. 

I never knew what's going to happen.

And I'm pretty unlikely to ever know what's going to happen ahead of time.

So, I came up with a plan that I felt should get us thru most anything.

We have profitable rental house income in a town that's great for owning rental property.

We have rented farm land income in a different state so a major flood or earth quake or other natural disaster isn't likely to take them all out at the same time.

We have fixed income coming in from social security.   Maybe even a very tiny pension in a few years.

And we have a large stock and bond portfolio which we won't need for normal living expenses within 3 years, and barely need even now, with a bunch of extra expenses from owning houses we don't want to keep.  So we won't have to sell much, if any, when the market is down.

We did this asset allocation because we didn't want to depend on any one income stream.   Even our income stream categories have diversification in them:  4 rental houses, 2 rented farms, 3 social security checks, and VTSAX and the international equivalent whose code I forget, which together represent thousands of companies.

We also made sure that we could drop any one overall income stream and still be just fine if we tightened our belts a bit.  In less than 3 years we wouldn't even have to do that.

My biggest financial problem right now is that I don't have the mental or physical bandwidth to finish renovating a charity house we want to give away because we're too busy with our old and new homes instead.  I'll have to pay some taxes in cash if I don't donate the house before the end of the year, and if I don't renovate it before then, I won't get the extra value the house would be worth for reducing those taxes. 
And hell, if I just sold the house and got my money back out of it, I would get more money for it than I would save in taxes.   Such problems!   :)

My biggest social problem is not accidentally rubbing our financial situation in the noses of our friends and neighbors because some of them are really hurting.   That might include some of you, though I hope not.

It's the best I can do at this point in time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 26, 2020, 08:09:06 PM

Quote from: libertarian4321 on May 26, 2020, 04:25:55 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 11:06:26 PM

Wow.   Simply wow.

I've been reading MMM since 2012.

I've never seen so many informed people lose their nerve.    Despite learning that the market has its ups and downs, despite the 4% rule working 95% and a host of things one can do to stave off that 5% defeat, I'm seeing gobs of folks cash out their portfolios.

At least learn the FDIC rules if you're going to keep it in cash so if the banks fail the government will be on the hook for the lost cash.

Me?    I'm not doing a darn thing financially that I didn't plan to do -- other than not travel as much for the obvious safety reasons.

My index funds are still were they were back in January and I expect they'll stay that way.   


Just make damn sure that you are acting out of real knowledge instead of panic.  Fear is the portfolio killer.

I think the nervous/panicky people are the ones posting.  Those of us who see this as just another of many "crises" we will face over an investing lifetime are just calmly doing what we've always done- steadily saving and investing for the long term.

COVID ain't the end of the world, folks.  Life will go on.  30 years from now, this "crisis" will a lot like the '87 crisis- a barely noticeable blip on a long term stock market chart.

Chaos is just another word for opportunity.

 I’m one of those who come off as a nervous Nellie. And I am. When it comes to US equities I’m about as nervous as they get. I‘m around a whole lot of folks who think US equities are the easy path to wealth while I think they’re  a rotten deal. Try as I may, I can’t reconcile myself to paying what I think are nosebleed valuations and then attempt  to  fool myself into thinking I’m somehow getting a deal.

 I should spend my energy on what I think are good purchases or investments and circle back some time in the future if the situation changes. That sounds like more fun anyway. Being the naysayer sucks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 26, 2020, 08:48:31 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 26, 2020, 08:09:06 PM

Quote from: libertarian4321 on May 26, 2020, 04:25:55 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 11:06:26 PM

Wow.   Simply wow.

I've been reading MMM since 2012.

I've never seen so many informed people lose their nerve.    Despite learning that the market has its ups and downs, despite the 4% rule working 95% and a host of things one can do to stave off that 5% defeat, I'm seeing gobs of folks cash out their portfolios.

At least learn the FDIC rules if you're going to keep it in cash so if the banks fail the government will be on the hook for the lost cash.

Me?    I'm not doing a darn thing financially that I didn't plan to do -- other than not travel as much for the obvious safety reasons.

My index funds are still were they were back in January and I expect they'll stay that way.   


Just make damn sure that you are acting out of real knowledge instead of panic.  Fear is the portfolio killer.

I think the nervous/panicky people are the ones posting.  Those of us who see this as just another of many "crises" we will face over an investing lifetime are just calmly doing what we've always done- steadily saving and investing for the long term.

COVID ain't the end of the world, folks.  Life will go on.  30 years from now, this "crisis" will a lot like the '87 crisis- a barely noticeable blip on a long term stock market chart.

Chaos is just another word for opportunity.

 I’m one of those who come off as a nervous Nellie. And I am. When it comes to US equities I’m about as nervous as they get. I‘m around a whole lot of folks who think US equities are the easy path to wealth while I think they’re  a rotten deal. Try as I may, I can’t reconcile myself to paying what I think are nosebleed valuations and then attempt  to  fool myself into thinking I’m somehow getting a deal.

 I should spend my energy on what I think are good purchases or investments and circle back some time in the future if the situation changes. That sounds like more fun anyway. Being the naysayer sucks.

So if you don’t like the US stock market then just put your money all in a total international stock market index and call it a day?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 27, 2020, 05:49:35 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 26, 2020, 08:48:31 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 26, 2020, 08:09:06 PM

Quote from: libertarian4321 on May 26, 2020, 04:25:55 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 11:06:26 PM

Wow.   Simply wow.

I've been reading MMM since 2012.

I've never seen so many informed people lose their nerve.    Despite learning that the market has its ups and downs, despite the 4% rule working 95% and a host of things one can do to stave off that 5% defeat, I'm seeing gobs of folks cash out their portfolios.

At least learn the FDIC rules if you're going to keep it in cash so if the banks fail the government will be on the hook for the lost cash.

Me?    I'm not doing a darn thing financially that I didn't plan to do -- other than not travel as much for the obvious safety reasons.

My index funds are still were they were back in January and I expect they'll stay that way.   


Just make damn sure that you are acting out of real knowledge instead of panic.  Fear is the portfolio killer.

I think the nervous/panicky people are the ones posting.  Those of us who see this as just another of many "crises" we will face over an investing lifetime are just calmly doing what we've always done- steadily saving and investing for the long term.

COVID ain't the end of the world, folks.  Life will go on.  30 years from now, this "crisis" will a lot like the '87 crisis- a barely noticeable blip on a long term stock market chart.

Chaos is just another word for opportunity.

 I’m one of those who come off as a nervous Nellie. And I am. When it comes to US equities I’m about as nervous as they get. I‘m around a whole lot of folks who think US equities are the easy path to wealth while I think they’re  a rotten deal. Try as I may, I can’t reconcile myself to paying what I think are nosebleed valuations and then attempt  to  fool myself into thinking I’m somehow getting a deal.

 I should spend my energy on what I think are good purchases or investments and circle back some time in the future if the situation changes. That sounds like more fun anyway. Being the naysayer sucks.

So if you don’t like the US stock market then just put your money all in a total international stock market index and call it a day?

In a nutshell, that’s exactly what I’m doing with retirement accounts. DCAing into international.  For non retirement stuff I’m looking at other cost savings and investments. Less orthodox stuff.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on May 27, 2020, 06:32:42 AM

I am long cash so have been DCAing into the market over the last year.  Sped up since the crash, but now the market is so recovered now I am considering slowing down my rate of entry a bit.  If I carry on as I am I'll have rebalanced as much as I can with current resources by September.  If I slow down, I can carry on to year end (basically averaging in over a longer period), and then I have another chunk of savings maturing in January 2021.  When I initially conceived my plan I thought all the relevant information would be on the table within 6 months, so that seemed a reasonable time-frame.   But if there is another leg down in the autumn not only will I be miserable because it will mean that Covid is as horrible or more horrible than feared (or our ability to manage it worse than hoped) - but also frustrated because I won't have any spare cash to at least have some potential future upside to go with my misery.  If things turn out better than expected and the market soars away then yes, I guess I would have been better to get my money in faster: but the money I've already transferred over the last couple of months will be looking very good in that scenario, so I don't think I'll have too many regrets.  I'm generally very good at finding silver linings (particularly in a hypothetical world where we would all be feeling very relieved and happy!)

Is this panic?  I don't think so
Is it market timing?  Yes
Do I have the information or expertise required to judge whether the market is correctly valuing all the relevant risks?  Clearly not.
Do I know my own psychology well enough to have a sense of what situations I might find financially scary or frustrating?  Somewhat - and in the end that's the driver.  I am absolutely sure that my psychological needs have limited my returns over the years .... but meeting them has also allowed me to sleep well at night, and that's worth something.

The one thing I really need to get on top of is geographic asset allocation.  Mine is basically totally random.  I want to at least have a plan and a reason for it, even if the reasons are not particularly well founded!  The more I can become the "investing machine" and just follow my plan the happier I'll be, whatever happens to the market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on May 27, 2020, 10:02:14 AM

Quote from: libertarian4321 on May 26, 2020, 04:25:55 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 11:06:26 PM

Wow.   Simply wow.

I've been reading MMM since 2012.

I've never seen so many informed people lose their nerve.    Despite learning that the market has its ups and downs, despite the 4% rule working 95% and a host of things one can do to stave off that 5% defeat, I'm seeing gobs of folks cash out their portfolios.

At least learn the FDIC rules if you're going to keep it in cash so if the banks fail the government will be on the hook for the lost cash.

Me?    I'm not doing a darn thing financially that I didn't plan to do -- other than not travel as much for the obvious safety reasons.

My index funds are still were they were back in January and I expect they'll stay that way.   


Just make damn sure that you are acting out of real knowledge instead of panic.  Fear is the portfolio killer.

I think the nervous/panicky people are the ones posting.  Those of us who see this as just another of many "crises" we will face over an investing lifetime are just calmly doing what we've always done- steadily saving and investing for the long term.

COVID ain't the end of the world, folks.  Life will go on.  30 years from now, this "crisis" will a lot like the '87 crisis- a barely noticeable blip on a long term stock market chart.

Maybe, maybe not.   Some things are much different than '87

CAPE was 18 at peak, now 28 after correction and before drop in earnings
US Ten Year was 7%, now 0.7%
Debt to GDP was 40%, now >100% and climbing
Inflation was 2% in '86 and '88 was 4%), now <1%
Total Debt (personal, corp, gov't) was $11trillion, now $75 trillion. 

Basically there was so much more spread available whether in equities, bonds - inflation, levers to pull with Dept. 

We have had a > 30 year bull market in interest rates and explosion of personal, public and government debt - amounts owed have between 5-8% annually since then.  This obviously fuels economic activity.  Credit standards were far different back and large down payments or cash was required.   Now we are a payment society.   

Don't know that the growth will be as grand going forward,  should still be fine but my guess is that the retirement calculators that say you have a chance of having 10x of what you started with probably won't happen.   

All the inflation triggers that were caused by all that was moderated by offshoring overseas and technology/productivity improvements that were exponential over that period.

For the last several years and certainly now, the public speak has been that we are striving for growth and 2% inflation when in reality we are fighting dearly against deflation. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 27, 2020, 06:15:19 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on May 27, 2020, 10:02:14 AM

- KER SNIP -

For the last several years and certainly now, the public speak has been that we are striving for growth and 2% inflation when in reality we are fighting dearly against deflation.

I had the opposite idea as all this money is being dumped into the money supply by the government.  However, upon a little further reflection I think most of it is not given to people who will be spending money on stuff like bread.  The upper crust has the money and so it is not really moving within the economy.  (Note how I stayed with the bread thing.)

You prompted me to read up on it a bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation)

From the Wiki article:

During severe deflation, targeting an interest rate (the usual method of determining how much currency to create) may be ineffective, because even lowering the short-term interest rate to zero may result in a real interest rate which is too high to attract credit-worthy borrowers. In the 21st century negative interest rate has been tried, but it can't be too negative, since people might withdraw cash from bank accounts if they have negative interest rate. Thus the central bank must directly set a target for the quantity of money (called "quantitative easing") and may use extraordinary methods to increase the supply of money, e.g. purchasing financial assets of a type not usually used by the central bank as reserves (such as mortgage-backed securities). Before he was Chairman of the United States Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke claimed in 2002, "...sufficient injections of money will ultimately always reverse a deflation",[39] although Japan's deflationary spiral was not broken by the amount of quantitative easing provided by the Bank of Japan.

This does look like what the government is doing at this time.

Seems like after this Virus crisis lessens, it would be an ideal time for great investments in public works.  Interest rates are low, labor will be available and the need is there.  This would get the money moving again and increase demand for production.  It may have the added bonus of new technology development depending on the type of infrastructure investment.  It's a bit like WW2 and the great depression.

But, I am exposed to fake news, so my perception could be way way off.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 28, 2020, 06:09:04 AM

Quote from: libertarian4321 on May 26, 2020, 04:25:55 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 23, 2020, 11:06:26 PM

Wow.   Simply wow.

I've been reading MMM since 2012.

I've never seen so many informed people lose their nerve.    Despite learning that the market has its ups and downs, despite the 4% rule working 95% and a host of things one can do to stave off that 5% defeat, I'm seeing gobs of folks cash out their portfolios.

At least learn the FDIC rules if you're going to keep it in cash so if the banks fail the government will be on the hook for the lost cash.

Me?    I'm not doing a darn thing financially that I didn't plan to do -- other than not travel as much for the obvious safety reasons.

My index funds are still were they were back in January and I expect they'll stay that way.   


Just make damn sure that you are acting out of real knowledge instead of panic.  Fear is the portfolio killer.

I think the nervous/panicky people are the ones posting.  Those of us who see this as just another of many "crises" we will face over an investing lifetime are just calmly doing what we've always done- steadily saving and investing for the long term.

COVID ain't the end of the world, folks.  Life will go on.  30 years from now, this "crisis" will a lot like the '87 crisis- a barely noticeable blip on a long term stock market chart.

Comments here had dried up.  If you see some of my previous posts, I was in kicking and proding you all for a reason.  I'd say nearly everyone here is better at this than me.  I miss Sol, RebelSpy and a bunch of others who were giving guidance here.  They have FIRED and gone.  But I got what I needed and stayed the course.  Tens of thousands better now.  My apologies for being a butthead.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 28, 2020, 07:41:34 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 28, 2020, 06:09:04 AM

I miss Sol, RebelSpy and a bunch of others who were giving guidance here.  They have FIRED and gone.  But I got what I needed and stayed the course.  Tens of thousands better now.  My apologies for being a butthead.

I miss @sol too, but @arebelspy is still here. He has three little kids now, so he's busier. If you need him, he responds to batsignals.

I have another thought, @Bateaux and since I'm an oldtimer like @SwordGuy, I'm just going to say it. I hated when the title of this thread was changed to "...$4M...and Beyond!" If you are waiting until you have that much money, you are not winning any race. No stoic "needs" that much money. Pull the trigger and get your life back already.

I will clarify that coasting to these huge numbers is different. If you get there post-FIRE, at least you knew you had enough and pulled the trigger. Those of you who are legitimately in this thread and are still afraid to RE are arguably not mustachian at all. You're not alone in this, Bateaux, but it becomes hard to root for people who have so much more than they will ever need but they just can't see it. General question, not just for Bateaux: If FIRE isn't your goal, why are you even here?

Sword Guy and I both remember what a hard time @Exflyboy got when he was hesitating to pull the trigger. Why nobody hasn't called you on this shit just shows how much things have changed. Or, perhaps they have, but they've lost interest, because you're not listening.

For anyone who is grappling with this, consider visiting the "Saving to $10k" (or any lower goal Race thread) or checking out some case studies. Maybe helping people who are just starting their FIRE journeys will make you see exactly what you are so stubbornly blind to. You have enough, you've won the race. Continuing to run laps when you say you want out is ridiculous. It's also sad, IMO. Time is fleeting and life is short. Get on with it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 28, 2020, 07:57:46 AM

Quote from: Dicey on May 28, 2020, 07:41:34 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 28, 2020, 06:09:04 AM

I miss Sol, RebelSpy and a bunch of others who were giving guidance here.  They have FIRED and gone.  But I got what I needed and stayed the course.  Tens of thousands better now.  My apologies for being a butthead.

I miss @sol too, but @arebelspy is still here. He has three little kids now, so he's busier. If you need him, he responds to batsignals.

I have another thought, @Bateaux and since I'm an oldtimer like @SwordGuy, I'm just going to say it. I hated when the title of this thread was changed to "...$4M...and Beyond!" If you are waiting until you have that much money, you are not winning any race. No stoic "needs" that much money. Pull the trigger and get your life back already.

I will clarify that coasting to these huge numbers is different. If you get there post-FIRE, at least you knew you had enough and pulled the trigger. Those of you who are legitimately in this thread and are still afraid to RE are arguably not mustachian at all. You're not alone in this, Bateaux, but it becomes hard to root for people who have so much more than they will ever need but they just can't see it. General question, not just for Bateaux: If FIRE isn't your goal, why are you even here?

Sword Guy and I both remember what a hard time @Exflyboy got when he was hesitating to pull the trigger. Why nobody hasn't called you on this shit just shows how much things have changed. Or, perhaps they have, but they've lost interest, because you're not listening.

For anyone who is grappling with this, consider visiting the "Saving to $10k" (or any lower goal Race thread) or checking out some case studies. Maybe helping people who are just starting their FIRE journeys will make you see exactly what you are so stubbornly blind to. You have enough, you've won the race. Continuing to run laps when you say you want out is ridiculous. It's also sad, IMO. Time is fleeting and life is short. Get on with it.

Dicey you are correct and you guys are every bit as encouraging as former greats at MMM.  Wife is going to need knee surgery.  I've put her on notice to get it done asap.  We have pretty good insurance and we're going to try and take advantage of it.  Current plan is work till January 1st and use the 8 weeks or so of vacation time I'll be awarded then.  That gives us till March 1, 2021 on company insurance and keeps our 2021 income low enough for Obamacare.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on May 28, 2020, 08:37:41 AM

Quote from: Dicey on May 28, 2020, 07:41:34 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 28, 2020, 06:09:04 AM

For anyone who is grappling with this, consider visiting the "Saving to $10k" (or any lower goal Race thread) or checking out some case studies. Maybe helping people who are just starting their FIRE journeys will make you see exactly what you are so stubbornly blind to. You have enough, you've won the race. Continuing to run laps when you say you want out is ridiculous. It's also sad, IMO. Time is fleeting and life is short. Get on with it.

This is some good tough love for me too @Dicey , thank you!  I do have a clear "out" date, but I know I'll be tempted to keep saying "yes" to things I should be saying "no" to for my family and for my own sanity.  I hope you'll still be here to kick me up the bum when I start to wobble!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 28, 2020, 10:34:49 AM

News flash:


I just heard that Capital Gains taxes may be cancelled this year to help stimulate the economy. 


I have mixed feeling whenever we receive handouts...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 28, 2020, 10:57:51 AM

Interesting isn't it how we always compare ourselves to those of us we perceive as doing better than us. @Dicey made this point nicely.

the problem of course if we equate "size of stash" to how well we are doing then there will always be someone doing better than we are.

I often find myself wondering what it would be like to have enough money for money to be meaningless... Then just yesterday I had a buddy of mine stop by my shop and he spotted my Dewalt battery powered grease gun. He exclaimed that this tool must be awesome etc.

I then went into how I really can't justify a $120 grease gun because I hardly ever use it etc etc. Then said buddy said "EXFB, you're a multi millionaire, you can justify anything you want!"

And there we have it. He was comparing his financial position to mine and see's me as having so much money as it must be almost meaningless!

So I guess at some point we cross this magical line but we don't realise when we cross it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on May 28, 2020, 11:11:22 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 28, 2020, 10:57:51 AM

Interesting isn't it how we always compare ourselves to those of us we perceive as doing better than us. @Dicey made this point nicely.

the problem of course if we equate "size of stash" to how well we are doing then there will always be someone doing better than we are.

This point is so obvious but somehow hard to wrap your head around.

I remember when I was at University complaining to a friend about how badly I was doing at something and how stupid I was and he just said to me "Light, there will always be somebody cleverer than you.  Always.  At any given thing.  Lots of people actually."   Which sounds like a bit of a kick in the teeth but was such a gift really!  This is in itself going to sound stupid because it's obvious isn't it, but that was really a defining moment in my life. 

I took it to heart, and although I have been stressed and stupid about many many many things in my life since then, it has never been about comparing myself to somebody else.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 28, 2020, 11:39:05 AM

Quote from: Dicey on May 28, 2020, 07:41:34 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 28, 2020, 06:09:04 AM

I miss Sol, RebelSpy and a bunch of others who were giving guidance here.  They have FIRED and gone.  But I got what I needed and stayed the course.  Tens of thousands better now.  My apologies for being a butthead.

I miss @sol too, but @arebelspy is still here. He has three little kids now, so he's busier. If you need him, he responds to batsignals.

I have another thought, @Bateaux and since I'm an oldtimer like @SwordGuy, I'm just going to say it. I hated when the title of this thread was changed to "...$4M...and Beyond!" If you are waiting until you have that much money, you are not winning any race. No stoic "needs" that much money. Pull the trigger and get your life back already.

I will clarify that coasting to these huge numbers is different. If you get there post-FIRE, at least you knew you had enough and pulled the trigger. Those of you who are legitimately in this thread and are still afraid to RE are arguably not mustachian at all. You're not alone in this, Bateaux, but it becomes hard to root for people who have so much more than they will ever need but they just can't see it. General question, not just for Bateaux: If FIRE isn't your goal, why are you even here?

Sword Guy and I both remember what a hard time @Exflyboy got when he was hesitating to pull the trigger. Why nobody hasn't called you on this shit just shows how much things have changed. Or, perhaps they have, but they've lost interest, because you're not listening.

For anyone who is grappling with this, consider visiting the "Saving to $10k" (or any lower goal Race thread) or checking out some case studies. Maybe helping people who are just starting their FIRE journeys will make you see exactly what you are so stubbornly blind to. You have enough, you've won the race. Continuing to run laps when you say you want out is ridiculous. It's also sad, IMO. Time is fleeting and life is short. Get on with it.

Ooh. Great post Dicey!

In answer to your general question: I’m here because I’m interested in FI. Because you know what you get to do when you’re FI? Answer: pretty much whatever you darn well want. To me RE has not really been the goal. I like my job, and am generally fulfilled in doing it. Oddly enough, it does happen to some people. So for now I continue to work, realizing that I’m really just one crappy boss away from pulling the plug. It really is a bit like the movie Office Space. Work is a lot more fun when you choose to be there, not because you have to be. Or in my case, don’t have to be there for long.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on May 28, 2020, 12:12:19 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 27, 2020, 06:15:19 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on May 27, 2020, 10:02:14 AM

- KER SNIP -

For the last several years and certainly now, the public speak has been that we are striving for growth and 2% inflation when in reality we are fighting dearly against deflation.

I had the opposite idea as all this money is being dumped into the money supply by the government.  However, upon a little further reflection I think most of it is not given to people who will be spending money on stuff like bread.  The upper crust has the money and so it is not really moving within the economy.  (Note how I stayed with the bread thing.)

You prompted me to read up on it a bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation)

From the Wiki article:

During severe deflation, targeting an interest rate (the usual method of determining how much currency to create) may be ineffective, because even lowering the short-term interest rate to zero may result in a real interest rate which is too high to attract credit-worthy borrowers. In the 21st century negative interest rate has been tried, but it can't be too negative, since people might withdraw cash from bank accounts if they have negative interest rate. Thus the central bank must directly set a target for the quantity of money (called "quantitative easing") and may use extraordinary methods to increase the supply of money, e.g. purchasing financial assets of a type not usually used by the central bank as reserves (such as mortgage-backed securities). Before he was Chairman of the United States Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke claimed in 2002, "...sufficient injections of money will ultimately always reverse a deflation",[39] although Japan's deflationary spiral was not broken by the amount of quantitative easing provided by the Bank of Japan.

This does look like what the government is doing at this time.

Seems like after this Virus crisis lessens, it would be an ideal time for great investments in public works.  Interest rates are low, labor will be available and the need is there.  This would get the money moving again and increase demand for production.  It may have the added bonus of new technology development depending on the type of infrastructure investment.  It's a bit like WW2 and the great depression.

But, I am exposed to fake news, so my perception could be way way off.

This is what the government has been doing since the great financial crisis (GFC, more than 10 years).   Since the financial crisis Interest rates were kept artificially low and the feds balance sheet got bigger. 

Prior to the GFC fed funds rate was 5.25% and the fed balance sheet was $900Billion, after fed funds rate went to zero and stayed there until 2016-2018 when it went up to 2.4% until it was brought back down to 1.5% before the pandemic.  Now with pandemic its back to 0%.

The fed balance sheet went from $900Billion to $2.2trillion right after the GFC and rose to $4.5Trillion until it decreased slightly to $3.9trillion at the end of 2019 - now with the pandemic its over $7 trillion and climbing.

There was also fiscal stimulus via the tax reform - should have been stimulative.

And because of the low interest rates and easy credit Total Debt Outstanding (Gov't, personal/household incl mortgage, corp, etc) since GFC went from $54trillion to $75trillion. 

And with all that inflation since the GFC was less than 2% - so yes I really believe we have been fighting the risk of deflation.

The fed and fiscal policies were completely irresponsible as each year went on after the GFC.


Sure, an investment in public works might help but I wonder how great the impact would be as labor, equipment and technology is far different today than it was back then.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 28, 2020, 02:28:25 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on May 28, 2020, 12:12:19 PM

- SNIP -


Sure, an investment in public works might help but I wonder how great the impact would be as labor, equipment and technology is far different today than it was back then.

It sure is different to think about deflation.  I've never seen that in my lifetime.  I still am thinking about it.  They (Uncle Sam) are making so much more money, but it's just damned up.  If they gave more of it to the rest of us, I can easily envision a stimulus.  People would buy new cars, boats, guns, lawnmowers, etc.  This, in turn would create jobs.  Of course, if all those products are imported, it wouldn't work.  The Wikipedia article noted that this sort of happened in Japan as the low cost of Chinese labor made Japan non-competitive.  Giving that money to big industries won't help.  They will only invest if there is a demand for a product or service and may invest it elsewhere.

However, if they invested in modern US infrastructure, it would be an investment in the future and the money would have to be spent here.  Each good paying construction job can create 5 other jobs in support services.  Just think what high speed trains could do.  An entire service industry would need to be created to support them.

Labor, equipment and technology have had some improvements, but you still need people to do the work.  Even today, machines cannot do everything.  The work needs to be planned.  The equipment needs to be purchased.  Products need to be shipped to support the project schedules.

I wonder how many "shovel ready" project designs are left sitting in some drawers from the Obama days.

That money given out by Uncle Sam  would be changing a lot of hands if major infrastructure projects were being done.  Right now it looks like it is just sitting with banks and corporations not doing the country much good.

We also have to wait out the Virus pandemic. 

Too bad Sol isn't around any more.  He always had the smart answers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 28, 2020, 03:04:25 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 28, 2020, 10:34:49 AM

News flash:


I just heard that Capital Gains taxes may be cancelled this year to help stimulate the economy. 


I have mixed feeling whenever we receive handouts...

THAT would be awesome for us.    We pulled out about $130,000 for a down payment for our new house and for flip expenses.   Not having to pay taxes on that would be really nice for us.

Not sure that it's good for America, though.

I would prefer the option that's best for our country, whatever that is.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 28, 2020, 03:31:29 PM

There's actually being rich and there's feeling rich.

We all know people that feel they are rich because they have a big paycheck, but are really just living paycheck to paycheck.

I was raised solidly in the middle class, my wife was raised in a lower class working family.  Our first six years of living together were in poverty before we broke into the middle class.    From then on we were solidly in the middle class.

But sometime in the last 5 years we realized that although our heads were still solidly middle class, our finances meant we were now rich.

Not super-rich, but anyone qualifying for this thread is definitely rich.

The realization came when we were looking at this wonderful old mid-century modern house which at one time had been an architectural jewel, thinking, "Someone should save this house before it's torn down!".  We looked at one another and realized we could do just that.

We could spend $100k in cold hard cash to buy it, another $20K to have it totally re-roofed plus a lot of repair, and then another $80k in cash to renovate it for sale --- and it really wouldn't make a difference to our finances.   

There are not many people in this country who could do that, much less afford to do that.   That's when we realized we truly were rich.

And doing something good for our community made us happy.   

I suggest setting aside a portion of your stash and use it when looking for opportunities to help people.
But you don't have to just give it away (nothing wrong with that!).

I've re-used the same $200k multiple times.

$140k went into the mid-century modern restoration before we sold it.   Got back about $148K.

$90k went into funding a flip for a buddy to jump-start his real estate business.   I'll see that money back in about 3-4 years.

$65k went into funding a fixer-upper for our daughter's adopted grandma.   She's fixed it up and will be  buying it from us in July.  If her mortgage comes thru, $62,500 of that will go back into the kitty for helping others.

Plus we've bought a house to renovate and donate.   Hopefully we'll get that done this year.

Was re-watching "Hello, Dolly!" this week.   "Money is like manure, it's not worth anything unless it's spread around to help young things grow."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 28, 2020, 06:32:41 PM

Went out on the bike for the first time in over a month.  I  was looking to clear my head and sweat out some toxins.  The heat in Southern Louisiana has arrived and I certainly struggled a bit over the 40 miles.  Showered and had some food.  The soreness actually feels welcome.  It's all good

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 28, 2020, 06:48:01 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 28, 2020, 10:34:49 AM

News flash:


I just heard that Capital Gains taxes may be cancelled this year to help stimulate the economy. 


I have mixed feeling whenever we receive handouts...

@GreenEggs , where did you hear that?   I can't find it anywhere.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on May 28, 2020, 07:05:34 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 28, 2020, 06:48:01 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 28, 2020, 10:34:49 AM

News flash:


I just heard that Capital Gains taxes may be cancelled this year to help stimulate the economy. 


I have mixed feeling whenever we receive handouts...

@GreenEggs , where did you hear that?   I can't find it anywhere.

I'm not GreenEggs, but I do know from other threads that the President has mentioned the idea once or twice.  That's a long way from becoming law, and I sincerely doubt it will happen.  If it does, I'm sure you'll see plenty of posts and articles discussing it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 28, 2020, 07:06:20 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 28, 2020, 06:48:01 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 28, 2020, 10:34:49 AM

News flash:


I just heard that Capital Gains taxes may be cancelled this year to help stimulate the economy. 


I have mixed feeling whenever we receive handouts...

@GreenEggs , where did you hear that?   I can't find it anywhere.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/business/economy/trump-tax-cuts-coronavirus-stimulus.html

It’s what Pres. Trump would like to see. I sorta doubt it, but who knows?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: YHD on May 28, 2020, 07:47:42 PM

I'm here because I wanted to FIRE desperately at 42 cuz work sucked. Worked at at the stash until 49.  Had breast cancer.  Competed for my dream job while on chemo.  Got the job.  Now I don't want to FIRE even though I can.  Funny that.

But y'all are so much fun.  I can't quit ya.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 28, 2020, 08:10:44 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 28, 2020, 07:06:20 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 28, 2020, 06:48:01 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 28, 2020, 10:34:49 AM

News flash:


I just heard that Capital Gains taxes may be cancelled this year to help stimulate the economy. 


I have mixed feeling whenever we receive handouts...

@GreenEggs , where did you hear that?   I can't find it anywhere.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/business/economy/trump-tax-cuts-coronavirus-stimulus.html

It’s what Pres. Trump would like to see. I sorta doubt it, but who knows?

I don't see this passing the house unless the senate gives regular people a bunch more help.

Damn near no one but the rich owns much stock outside of a 401K or IRA.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 28, 2020, 09:15:53 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 28, 2020, 06:48:01 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 28, 2020, 10:34:49 AM

News flash:


I just heard that Capital Gains taxes may be cancelled this year to help stimulate the economy. 


I have mixed feeling whenever we receive handouts...

@GreenEggs , where did you hear that?   I can't find it anywhere.

I heard it a couple of places yesterday.  First was in a YouTube pod cast from Cathie Wood of ARK funds, which was a few days old.  Then I heard it again on a daily news show, maybe it was CBS or CNBC? 


Neither said it was a sure thing, but you know how things work in DC.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 28, 2020, 09:21:18 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 28, 2020, 08:10:44 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 28, 2020, 07:06:20 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 28, 2020, 06:48:01 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 28, 2020, 10:34:49 AM

News flash:
I just heard that Capital Gains taxes may be cancelled this year to help stimulate the economy. 
I have mixed feeling whenever we receive handouts...

@GreenEggs , where did you hear that?   I can't find it anywhere.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/business/economy/trump-tax-cuts-coronavirus-stimulus.html
It’s what Pres. Trump would like to see. I sorta doubt it, but who knows?

I don't see this passing the house unless the senate gives regular people a bunch more help.
Damn near no one but the rich owns much stock outside of a 401K or IRA.

This would be the most ridiculous, blatant handout to the rich I can imagine - even more blatant than repealing the estate tax.  I, personally, would reset the cost basis on all of my taxable investments and would see how much it would help me with converting an old 401k and traditional IRA to Roth and maybe even home gains, as fast as humanly possible.  Don't get me wrong, this would be a phenomenal tax break which might trickle down a bit, but there are much more sensible policy measures to gin up spending immediately and boost the economy.

But I'm not spending much time planning on this one surviving the light of day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on May 28, 2020, 11:28:55 PM

Quote from: Dicey on May 28, 2020, 07:41:34 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 28, 2020, 06:09:04 AM

I miss Sol, RebelSpy and a bunch of others who were giving guidance here.  They have FIRED and gone.  But I got what I needed and stayed the course.  Tens of thousands better now.  My apologies for being a butthead.

I miss @sol too, but @arebelspy is still here. He has three little kids now, so he's busier. If you need him, he responds to batsignals.

I have another thought, @Bateaux and since I'm an oldtimer like @SwordGuy, I'm just going to say it. I hated when the title of this thread was changed to "...$4M...and Beyond!" If you are waiting until you have that much money, you are not winning any race. No stoic "needs" that much money. Pull the trigger and get your life back already.

I will clarify that coasting to these huge numbers is different. If you get there post-FIRE, at least you knew you had enough and pulled the trigger. Those of you who are legitimately in this thread and are still afraid to RE are arguably not mustachian at all. You're not alone in this, Bateaux, but it becomes hard to root for people who have so much more than they will ever need but they just can't see it. General question, not just for Bateaux: If FIRE isn't your goal, why are you even here?

Sword Guy and I both remember what a hard time @Exflyboy got when he was hesitating to pull the trigger. Why nobody hasn't called you on this shit just shows how much things have changed. Or, perhaps they have, but they've lost interest, because you're not listening.

For anyone who is grappling with this, consider visiting the "Saving to $10k" (or any lower goal Race thread) or checking out some case studies. Maybe helping people who are just starting their FIRE journeys will make you see exactly what you are so stubbornly blind to. You have enough, you've won the race. Continuing to run laps when you say you want out is ridiculous. It's also sad, IMO. Time is fleeting and life is short. Get on with it.

@Dicey Thank you for saying exactly what I was hoping to say in a previous post:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-from-$2m-to-$3m/msg2632309/#msg2632309

I have no problem in people saying (especially at a rebound from a bottom) that " My asset allocation (AA) won't let me sleep at night, this last drop proved it, I'm changing my IPS (Investment Policy Statement)  to have a different AA."
I do have a problem in people saying  "this or that external, non-controllable factor*** makes me fearful of the future,  therefore I'm changing my AA on the fly to do what I think will make me feel better now, no matter what my IPS did say."
I have a minor problem with early retirees dropping down to sub 50% equities.  If they have a 10 year horizon (terminal diagnosis at this time), then sure.   But are all those people hoping to die in 10 years? Even if you have "won the race"? 
To paraphrase Monty Python " you're not dead yet!"

@Bateaux,  @Exflyboy got a lot of grief for being in this thread and stringing us along on his non-retirement.   He eventually got the message, given in good humor, and I hope you will too.


***(CAPE, Trump-this, Pelosi-that, covid-19=death, covid-19=vaccine (but timing), unemployment scary, unemployment temporary, China + or -, gold this, gold that,   etc etc).  Life is unpredictable, if it wasn't we'd all be millionaires.  Oh crap we ARE all millionaires. :-)

@Dicey  I think the change to "4M...and Beyond!" happened because another thread (of 3M+) was started and we wanted to be inclusive and realized the high thread would get lost via low participation.  I do agree as previously mentioned with your sentiments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on May 28, 2020, 11:58:39 PM

I always feel a combination of sadness and relief when I read this thread. It's by far the most fascinating "Race from $X to $X" thread on these forums.

One of the concepts that's truly resonated over the past half decade of frequenting this community (and others like it), is the notion that;

standard of living = skill* X cost of living, where skill for the average wage slave consumer = 1

Skill being more clearly defined as skill leverage, efficiency factor, etc.

In order to increase ones perceived standard of living, they could spend more money, or increase their skill/efficiency of spending the money/income they have.

This thread seems to skew to the side that is focused on more money = higher standard of living, with very little emphasis on skill. Due to the high income/high earner lifestyle trappings, many appear to have a skill = <1

This is very bad, if your goal is freedom from wage slavery.

Here is an excerpt from one of my favorite books;

"The disenchanted grumble about "the system" or "the man." The analogy of "the system" is
the people walking around behind the chained slaves, keeping them going. However, it's mainly
the slaves themselves who keep themselves going. We don't realize that we maintain this system
by lack of imagination and questioning. Like birds, which never seem to have a flight plan, yet
always seem to fly together in a swarming flock, we don't question. We obediently pick whatever
options are handed to us, often choosing based on what our neighbors have chosen. We make
the best of the shadows on the wall, but we do not question the wall. The best prison is the one
with invisible bars.

Perhaps one reason for this complacency is the large quantity of material goods available to
the chain gang. Material goods are often used as compensation. Frequently, when someone is
depressed, the advice is "Go out and spend some money. Buy yourself something nice. Treat
yourself. Try a little retail therapy." People don't seem to realize that this attempt to feel good is
exactly what propagates the problem. Compared to people just 50 years ago, modern wage
slaves live a life of material abundance. They're consumers. They have big-screen TVs, movies
on demand, microwave ovens, food processors, and 24-piece flatware. They own multiple pairs of
shoes and enough clothes for more than a week without doing laundry. They have carpeted
floors, matching furniture, and vacuum cleaners. They have expensive toys. They have car
payments, college degrees, five-bedroom/three-bathroom mortgages, laptop computers, cell
phone contracts, power tools with 108-piece bit sets, premium cable, air conditioning systems,
blenders, food processors, pool tables, DVD players, and granite countertops. They redecorate,
attend sporting events, go on vacations, and occasionally play with their toys.

Society has made it very easy to spend money. Shopping centers line every street. Many
creative means of spending money have been devised. Instead of spending 30 seconds opening
a can of tomatoes with a traditional can opener, it's now possible to spend 30 minutes working to
pay for an electric can opener that can open the can in the same amount of time. Similarly, many
of the ways we used to do things have been redesigned to ensure that instead of doing it
ourselves, we can buy some gadget or some service to have it done for us. This is convenient,
because we're usually too busy working to pay for it to do it ourselves. This is the gist of the
service economy; presumably, if we didn't create enough problems to spend time solving them,
the economy would collapse.

To speed up consumption, it's possible to obtain loans and spend money that's yet to be
earned. All it requires is a promise of increased amounts of work in the future, and a commitment
of up to 30 years to pay the money back--plus twice the amount in interest. Lots of personal
finance gurus are willing to charge you money (some will do it for free) to advise you as to exactly
how to distribute your money into retirement plans, college savings plans, mortgages, credit
cards, etc. to maximize your lifetime consumption. Success and power are equated with spending
money.

It usually starts with toys for the children and quickly evolves to cell phones and fashionable
clothes. Many realize that demonstrating their personal values through the color and build of their
cell phone is perhaps inadequate and then move on to bigger and more expensive propositions
like large cars, redecorating, or kitchen renovating. Not that there's anything wrong with such
creative outlets, but the scale of these "projects" is often mind-boggling, with tens of thousands
being spent on marginal increases in functionality. The old but typically fully functioning items are
discarded, especially if they have those ugly 1970s earth tone colors, or that bland 1980s beige,
or whatever we had in the 1990s, etc. Try for a moment to envision the large pile of abandoned
yet functional telephones, TVs, furniture, toys, old clothes and shoes, LPs, CDs, and packaging
material that you have discarded so far in your life. Such stuff doesn't magically disappear. It goes
somewhere, typically a landfill. Now multiply that by several hundred million people--not cool! In
the same vein, tally up the sum total of your earned income so far, subtract your savings, and
compare the difference to your pile of stuff. Was it really a good deal?

Is spending the most productive years of your life chained to the job market to collect a lot of
rarely used stuff that gathers dust in the closet or takes up space in junkyards a wise choice?
Were you really born just to die, leaving a large pile of discarded consumer goods? Probably not.
I realize that not wanting a house full of things makes me look weird and recently even
"unpatriotic." After all, more is better, and who doesn't want to be better? But perhaps conformity
is not the only way to live. In fact, by taking the other end of the bargain, saving as much as other
people are spending on wants, it's possible to retire and live on invested savings after just five
years of full-time work. Rather than increasing the amount of work to acquire more stuff, reducing
this superficial need reduces the amount of necessary work. It's possible to reduce the amount of
work all the way down to zero: financial independence. Indeed, playing the shadow game for five
years provides a permanent way out of the cave. Alternatively, it's also possible to return to the
cave for a few months every year to earn money for the next adventure out of the cave. This is
living on the economy, so to speak, rather than living in the economy."

-JLF

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on May 29, 2020, 12:51:42 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on May 28, 2020, 11:58:39 PM

..... HUUUUGGE clip.... :-)

 ....This is living on the economy, so to speak, rather than living in the economy."

-JLF

OK, I   grew ups Fundamentalist Christian, it still flavors my worldview, but I've come to accept that even as I wildly deviate from that.

RE:  in and not OF the world:

John 2:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

So I  always felt that I could accept or reject any outside consensus. "Be in the world but not of it"

I also grew up in "Amish Country."   
Amish or Old Order Mennonites are people that essentially live as my great-grandfather did prior to 1915.  No cars, no electricity, basically no consumerism.
There were constant reminders that the "modern way" was not accepted by some people. And those people were alive and reasonably happy. 
I've personally seen a young guy behind a single horse and single plow. (on a Sunday, God only knows what he did to irritate his elders on Saturday night).

We  (not Amish) did not have a TV, which engendered the question "Are you Amish?"
We had 8 or 9 radios, from AM, ShortWave (1.5-29MHz, world wide from Voice of America to, BBC to Australia to Radio Moscow) and FM. 
I found that I knew more of the world situation then my classmates (Central Pennsylvania USA, 6th grade). 
Remember the 1975 Indonesian invasion of East Timor?  My wakeup radio and news was Radio Australia.

Again I realized that I didn't have to march to the beat of the common drummer or in fact the beat of any drummer I didn't like or any drummer at all.


Many of you have gotten here by analogous means.




@2Birds1Stone could you provide the precise reference?  I don't recognize the initials.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on May 29, 2020, 03:40:58 AM

Jacob Lund Fisker, the excerpt is from the beginning of the ERE book. I highly recommend giving it a read

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 29, 2020, 04:56:53 AM

Wow guys.  Great posts the last few days.  I know there are many people reading this thread who never post.  Very inspiring.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 29, 2020, 09:27:48 AM

All that consumer oriented stuff quickly becomes obvious when you lose a job and have to move.  You end up boxing up all of your stuff, making repeated trips to Good Will or contributing to the dumpster.  Many times you ask yourself, "Why the he** did I buy this?"  Then you start to figure all the unnecessary money you spent on the stuff. 

Your posts about stuff and being independent make a lot of sense.  Thanks

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 29, 2020, 09:44:09 AM

Did I mention I been offered a job?...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 29, 2020, 12:51:09 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on May 28, 2020, 11:28:55 PM

@Dicey Thank you for saying exactly what I was hoping to say in a previous post:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-from-$2m-to-$3m/msg2632309/#msg2632309

I have no problem in people saying (especially at a rebound from a bottom) that " My asset allocation (AA) won't let me sleep at night, this last drop proved it, I'm changing my IPS (Investment Policy Statement)  to have a different AA."
I do have a problem in people saying  "this or that external, non-controllable factor*** makes me fearful of the future,  therefore I'm changing my AA on the fly to do what I think will make me feel better now, no matter what my IPS did say."
I have a minor problem with early retirees dropping down to sub 50% equities.  If they have a 10 year horizon (terminal diagnosis at this time), then sure.   But are all those people hoping to die in 10 years? Even if you have "won the race"? 
To paraphrase Monty Python " you're not dead yet!"

@Bateaux,  @Exflyboy got a lot of grief for being in this thread and stringing us along on his non-retirement.   He eventually got the message, given in good humor, and I hope you will too.


***(CAPE, Trump-this, Pelosi-that, covid-19=death, covid-19=vaccine (but timing), unemployment scary, unemployment temporary, China + or -, gold this, gold that,   etc etc).  Life is unpredictable, if it wasn't we'd all be millionaires.  Oh crap we ARE all millionaires. :-)

@Dicey  I think the change to "4M...and Beyond!" happened because another thread (of 3M+) was started and we wanted to be inclusive and realized the high thread would get lost via low participation.  I do agree as previously mentioned with your sentiments.

I think there is hope for @Bateaux,  looks like he's joined the best cohort year for retiring. He may well beat me out the door. 

One of the things I've learned here at the MMM forums is that my investment horizon is a lot longer than I thought.     

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 29, 2020, 01:05:29 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 28, 2020, 02:28:25 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on May 28, 2020, 12:12:19 PM

- SNIP -


Sure, an investment in public works might help but I wonder how great the impact would be as labor, equipment and technology is far different today than it was back then.

It sure is different to think about deflation.  I've never seen that in my lifetime.  I still am thinking about it.  They (Uncle Sam) are making so much more money, but it's just damned up.  If they gave more of it to the rest of us, I can easily envision a stimulus.  People would buy new cars, boats, guns, lawnmowers, etc.  This, in turn would create jobs.  Of course, if all those products are imported, it wouldn't work.  The Wikipedia article noted that this sort of happened in Japan as the low cost of Chinese labor made Japan non-competitive.  Giving that money to big industries won't help.  They will only invest if there is a demand for a product or service and may invest it elsewhere.

However, if they invested in modern US infrastructure, it would be an investment in the future and the money would have to be spent here.  Each good paying construction job can create 5 other jobs in support services.  Just think what high speed trains could do.  An entire service industry would need to be created to support them.

Labor, equipment and technology have had some improvements, but you still need people to do the work.  Even today, machines cannot do everything.  The work needs to be planned.  The equipment needs to be purchased.  Products need to be shipped to support the project schedules.

I wonder how many "shovel ready" project designs are left sitting in some drawers from the Obama days.

That money given out by Uncle Sam  would be changing a lot of hands if major infrastructure projects were being done.  Right now it looks like it is just sitting with banks and corporations not doing the country much good.

We also have to wait out the Virus pandemic. 

Too bad Sol isn't around any more.  He always had the smart answers.

Yeah, @sol had the smart answers.  I still have a lot of the dumb ones.

Here's my dumb answer: stimulus (i.e. infrastructure) would be an OK idea. And it would help things in the short term. And so long as the infrastructure is things that make the economy run better in the long term, its notsobad.   It's not the big problem with the economy, though.  That's actually demographics. Once people stop having kids, it causes a real problem in that it shifts the average age of the population upward.  Older folks from middle age on just don't spend all that much as a part of their income compared to younger folks.  Of course there are exceptions, but that's the general rule.  You've probably noted that in your own life. You're likely comfortable, already own what you really want, and couldn't care less about having the latest sneakers. And even if you do, you tend to wait until they go on sale. That just continues until late old age when you suddenly spend a lot of money (on medical) right at the end of life. Deflation happens in aging societies like Japan and most of Europe and soon the US. A lot of people who wait on making purchases, who don't have young kids to spend a lot of money on (such as for a house) and who are more interested in extinguishing debt than ramping it up are not going to grow an economy. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 29, 2020, 01:11:35 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 29, 2020, 09:44:09 AM

Did I mention I been offered a job?...:)

No.  Doing what?  Or do we not want to know?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 29, 2020, 01:20:35 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 29, 2020, 01:11:35 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 29, 2020, 09:44:09 AM

Did I mention I been offered a job?...:)

No.  Doing what?  Or do we not want to know?

Yes!.. But I turned it down. My addiction to earning money has been resolved.. Or at least I am "in recovery"..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 29, 2020, 01:26:51 PM

Lots of empty room in this country, @Buffaloski Boris .   Lots of hard-working people all over the world who believe in the American dream and will come here to swell our numbers if we let them.

Or we could just subsidize child care and health care by taxing the ultra rich and the mega-corporations fairly and require companies to pay a living wage.   And change our tariff structure to reward countries with quality labor standards and wages and good environmental practices, and punish those without them.

The biggest reason for bankruptcies is medical debt. 

The biggest obstacle for families wanting to start their own business (the biggest jobs creator) is medical insurance costs.   

The biggest obstacle for families wanting to have more children is the cost of childcare or poverty wages.

The reason we don't have more manufacturing in this country is because we have labor and environmental standards that much of the world doesn't have.   (Sad and pathetic as our labor standards are...)
If we charge punitive tariffs on countries that mistreat their workforce and pollute, our manufacturers become more competitive domestically.   Get the Europeans to go along (not hard on this one) and we (and they) will be competitive internationally as well.

Set tax policies to favor manufacturing away from mega-urban areas.  Provide relocation assistance to people and infrastructure improvement grants to states, counties and cities.  It will reduce urban congestion and spread the wealth across more of the country.

Change pre-K thru 12 education funding to provide national funding of education with local control over spending (except don't fund big sports complexes or high coach salaries).   Structure it so that schools having issues get more money.  Only provide these federal funds if the states implement similar funding formulas so that there are no longer "rich" school districts and "poor" school districts.  This will drive down housing prices because "gotta get into the good school district" won't price people out of the market.  It will also drive down prices because there will be more jobs in less urban areas, so the demand in the mega-markets will drop.

When you have a big problem, you have a big problem.

When you have several big problems, you have the opportunity to use them to solve each other.

 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 29, 2020, 03:44:49 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 29, 2020, 01:26:51 PM

Lots of empty room in this country, @Buffaloski Boris .   Lots of hard-working people all over the world who believe in the American dream and will come here to swell our numbers if we let them.

Or we could just subsidize child care and health care by taxing the ultra rich and the mega-corporations fairly and require companies to pay a living wage.   And change our tariff structure to reward countries with quality labor standards and wages and good environmental practices, and punish those without them.

The biggest reason for bankruptcies is medical debt. 

The biggest obstacle for families wanting to start their own business (the biggest jobs creator) is medical insurance costs.   

The biggest obstacle for families wanting to have more children is the cost of childcare or poverty wages.

The reason we don't have more manufacturing in this country is because we have labor and environmental standards that much of the world doesn't have.   (Sad and pathetic as our labor standards are...)
If we charge punitive tariffs on countries that mistreat their workforce and pollute, our manufacturers become more competitive domestically.   Get the Europeans to go along (not hard on this one) and we (and they) will be competitive internationally as well.

Set tax policies to favor manufacturing away from mega-urban areas.  Provide relocation assistance to people and infrastructure improvement grants to states, counties and cities.  It will reduce urban congestion and spread the wealth across more of the country.

Change pre-K thru 12 education funding to provide national funding of education with local control over spending (except don't fund big sports complexes or high coach salaries).   Structure it so that schools having issues get more money.  Only provide these federal funds if the states implement similar funding formulas so that there are no longer "rich" school districts and "poor" school districts.  This will drive down housing prices because "gotta get into the good school district" won't price people out of the market.  It will also drive down prices because there will be more jobs in less urban areas, so the demand in the mega-markets will drop.

When you have a big problem, you have a big problem.

When you have several big problems, you have the opportunity to use them to solve each other.

Well, at the risk of touching on politics, which I'm well known to detest and hate dislike, you really need to ask the question: who profits from the status quo and how?  And once you've answered that question, you usually have a pretty good framework for understanding why things are the way they are.

But rather than moan about the status quo and our problems, let's talk about some interesting ways to offset them.  Since as has been suggested, that we're rich people*, how would rich people approach a set of problems?  Let's just take an example from upthread.  One of our posters saw a architectural beauty of a building that they thought was going to get torn down.  Well rather than whinge and moan and demand that there outta be a law, they just went ahead and bought it.  And fixed it up.  Because they wanted to.  Which leads to a philosophical truth as expounded by the unwitting capitalist philosopher, Nikita Kruschev:

Freedom in capitalist countries exists only for those who possess money and who consequently hold power..

Or loosely translated as Money Talks. 

As rich people we use our money and power to accomplish our objectives. So why can't a government do the same thing.  Or more accurately, why can't an owned entity of the government (or controlled by it) use it's money and power to do what it sees as necessary?  What I'm alluding to are state level sovereign wealth funds. Somewhat similar to the one run by the state of Alaska.  You know, a very large sovereign wealth fund run started by, oh the state of Texas or California, might have just a little bit of sway in corporate decisions.  Such as where a plant is located. Or how you'll treat your laborers. 

*(I get a real kick out of that thought when driving my ancient SUV to go shop at Aldi). 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 29, 2020, 04:00:27 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 29, 2020, 09:44:09 AM

Did I mention I been offered a job?...:)

Oh?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on May 29, 2020, 04:08:33 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 26, 2020, 06:59:53 PM

@Bateaux ,



Should I sell at the right time and then buy back in at the right time?   Sure as hell should!

If only I knew when that was.  But I don't.   And it turns out that a host of very smart people have worked very hard to figure out how to know and, as far as we know, no one has truly figured it out (or shared it with us if they did).

I think most of us knew that in March the market was way down and it was a good time to put money in, but understandably we didn't know what the market would do next.
Not knowing creates the anxiety - which is completely understandable.

I want everyone to be able to voice their opinions and feelings. It's the only way we can help each other through this crazy time that is causing anxiety for all of us.

For those that post comments suggesting that you're as cool as a cucumber regarding the market turmoil - well good for you. But I find it unhelpful in providing support and guidance to the rest of us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 29, 2020, 04:34:19 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on May 29, 2020, 04:08:33 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 26, 2020, 06:59:53 PM

@Bateaux ,



Should I sell at the right time and then buy back in at the right time?   Sure as hell should!

If only I knew when that was.  But I don't.   And it turns out that a host of very smart people have worked very hard to figure out how to know and, as far as we know, no one has truly figured it out (or shared it with us if they did).

I think most of us knew that in March the market was way down and it was a good time to put money in, but understandably we didn't know what the market would do next.
Not knowing creates the anxiety - which is completely understandable.

I want everyone to be able to voice their opinions and feelings. It's the only way we can help each other through this crazy time that is causing anxiety for all of us.

For those that post comments suggesting that you're as cool as a cucumber regarding the market turmoil - well good for you. But I find it unhelpful in providing support and guidance to the rest of us.

As hard as I try I just can't think of a way to design a time machine!

@Dicey .. I'm not going back to work.. honest..;)

@Buffaloski Boris .. Hehe.. I have this 1989 F250 truck. It looks hideous and I think the head gaskets must be leaking a little because the stench of burnt coolant from the exhaust has caused at least one set of spendy friends to look upon it with disgust. Yes we do make a point of driving it to their house occasionally..:) We paid $1400 for it about 8 years ago and it runs great so we have no intention of getting rid.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 29, 2020, 05:04:11 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on May 29, 2020, 04:08:33 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 26, 2020, 06:59:53 PM

@Bateaux ,



Should I sell at the right time and then buy back in at the right time?   Sure as hell should!

If only I knew when that was.  But I don't.   And it turns out that a host of very smart people have worked very hard to figure out how to know and, as far as we know, no one has truly figured it out (or shared it with us if they did).

I think most of us knew that in March the market was way down and it was a good time to put money in, but understandably we didn't know what the market would do next.
Not knowing creates the anxiety - which is completely understandable.

I want everyone to be able to voice their opinions and feelings. It's the only way we can help each other through this crazy time that is causing anxiety for all of us.

For those that post comments suggesting that you're as cool as a cucumber regarding the market turmoil - well good for you. But I find it unhelpful in providing support and guidance to the rest of us.

Maybe some of it is guilt?   Which if it was, I'm pretty much over that now.  This is my first economic crisis as a millionaire.  A millionaire who is retaining a six figure paycheck.  But screw that imposter syndrome.  They are two Americas and that is that.   I'm working towards the option of living wealthy if I want.  Mustacian lifestyle can get you here, but there isn't a requirement to stay that way.  Working right now fantastic, there has never been less stress.  What the Hell else is there anyway for the rest of the year.  I've got 256 hours of vacation time for the rest of the year.   So I'm going to be away a lot anyway.  It's all good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on May 29, 2020, 05:27:38 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 29, 2020, 01:20:35 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on May 29, 2020, 01:11:35 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 29, 2020, 09:44:09 AM

Did I mention I been offered a job?...:)

No.  Doing what?  Or do we not want to know?

Yes!.. But I turned it down. My addiction to earning money has been resolved.. Or at least I am "in recovery"..:)

THANK GOD!  I was going to remind you to channel Nancy Reagan, "just say no" and all that....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 29, 2020, 06:01:12 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on May 29, 2020, 04:08:33 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 26, 2020, 06:59:53 PM

@Bateaux ,



Should I sell at the right time and then buy back in at the right time?   Sure as hell should!

If only I knew when that was.  But I don't.   And it turns out that a host of very smart people have worked very hard to figure out how to know and, as far as we know, no one has truly figured it out (or shared it with us if they did).

I think most of us knew that in March the market was way down and it was a good time to put money in, but understandably we didn't know what the market would do next.
Not knowing creates the anxiety - which is completely understandable.

I want everyone to be able to voice their opinions and feelings. It's the only way we can help each other through this crazy time that is causing anxiety for all of us.

For those that post comments suggesting that you're as cool as a cucumber regarding the market turmoil - well good for you. But I find it unhelpful in providing support and guidance to the rest of us.

Well, that's one way to look at it.   And if you do, I suppose you'll find it unhelpful.

Here's a different way to look at it.    I'm very interested in history and since my dad was stationed in Vietnam twice when I was a kid, I had a strong interest in military history.   Military history is chock full of examples of soldiers who kept those around them from panicking and running simply by exhibiting a calm, unruffled, untroubled demeanor.    If those soldiers had broken and run they would have been cut down, but instead they fought on to life and victory.    The movie "Zulu" about the battle of Rorke's Drift is a great example of the concept.   

So, when others are looking panicky and you're starting to feel panicky, which might mean the death or maiming of your fortune if you cut and run, maybe it's good to see others calmly soldiering on.

Anyway, that's the intent.

Best of fortune to you!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 29, 2020, 06:55:48 PM

I really appreciate hearing the calm voices amid panic. I admit that I was VERY uncomfortable during the March drop and my husband was downright panicked. It was a good test of our risk comfort level.

The thing is, though I understand that we’ve “won the race”, we’re only 42. We’ve got a long way to go still (I hope!). So no matter how uncomfortable we are during the big drops I know we can’t make a 40-50 year retirement if we shift too much to cash. So we’ve stayed the course. 85/15 and 5% cash. That 5% is about three years of living expenses. Maybe over the next few years we should increase that some more?

The other issue we are still struggling with is trying to FIRE with kids. I know what they need now, but what if they need MORE later? How do we factor that in? Right or wrong, I’m not really comfortable with saying no to things like braces and music lessons if neither of us are working. Any of you have any wisdom on this? I’m thinking if we are living on 3% of assets, we can always bump it up to 4% for the years the kids require more, and still be fine.

Finally I’ll leave you with my mother’s investment wisdom she gave me when the markets were down, (she was a millionaire teacher) “well, if the market is tanking and we’re going broke, then we’ll all be broke together, which means everything is about to get a lot cheaper!”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on May 29, 2020, 07:02:06 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 29, 2020, 06:55:48 PM

The other issue we are still struggling with is trying to FIRE with kids. I know what they need now, but what if they need MORE later? How do we factor that in? Right or wrong, I’m not really comfortable with saying no to things like braces and music lessons if neither of us are working. Any of you have any wisdom on this? I’m thinking if we are living on 3% of assets, we can always bump it up to 4% for the years the kids require more, and still be fine.

That's one way of dealing with it, and if that works for you, then good.

I retired before my two younger kids had chosen a college and when my oldest kid was halfway through.  I had some money set aside, but wasn't sure if it would be enough, not enough, or too much.  I didn't want to say "No" to their chosen universities based on costs.  So what I chose to do was retire anyway, use the college savings in a prudent fashion, and then see how things were turning out.  If they needed more, I made the decision in advance that I would then go back to work.

As it turned out, the oldest chose to finish at a public university, the middle one got a large scholarship, the youngest chose a public university and got lots of scholarships, and all three have received financial aid.  So it looks like there will be enough for them to finish with some left over.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 29, 2020, 08:40:21 PM

We were recently asking about deflation and wondering about what all the result from the money printing by the Fed.  Here's a great little video by Ray Dalio called "How the Economic Machine Works" that explains it all in very simple terms. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 29, 2020, 08:59:05 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 29, 2020, 08:40:21 PM

We were recently asking about deflation and wondering about what all the result from the money printing by the Fed.  Here's a great little video by Ray Dalio called "How the Economic Machine Works" that explains it all in very simple terms. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0)

It's a great video.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on May 30, 2020, 12:15:22 AM

@BeanCounter, if 5% of stash = 3 years of expenses then mathematically you're already at 60 years of expenses in total assets....sounds like any way you slice it you're going to die very very rich.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on May 30, 2020, 07:20:58 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 29, 2020, 06:55:48 PM

I really appreciate hearing the calm voices amid panic. I admit that I was VERY uncomfortable during the March drop and my husband was downright panicked. It was a good test of our risk comfort level.

The thing is, though I understand that we’ve “won the race”, we’re only 42. We’ve got a long way to go still (I hope!). So no matter how uncomfortable we are during the big drops I know we can’t make a 40-50 year retirement if we shift too much to cash. So we’ve stayed the course. 85/15 and 5% cash. That 5% is about three years of living expenses. Maybe over the next few years we should increase that some more?

The other issue we are still struggling with is trying to FIRE with kids. I know what they need now, but what if they need MORE later? How do we factor that in? Right or wrong, I’m not really comfortable with saying no to things like braces and music lessons if neither of us are working. Any of you have any wisdom on this? I’m thinking if we are living on 3% of assets, we can always bump it up to 4% for the years the kids require more, and still be fine.

Finally I’ll leave you with my mother’s investment wisdom she gave me when the markets were down, (she was a millionaire teacher) “well, if the market is tanking and we’re going broke, then we’ll all be broke together, which means everything is about to get a lot cheaper!”

We have kids as well and of course they can be a money suck.  Building their character is also important, though, and having to work and not get everything they want right now just because they happen to be breathing are important life lessons. We've pretty much limited the paid activities to one sport or extracurricular.  More because of available time than anything.  Braces are expensive but you can get dental insurance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 30, 2020, 08:13:39 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 29, 2020, 08:40:21 PM

We were recently asking about deflation and wondering about what all the result from the money printing by the Fed.  Here's a great little video by Ray Dalio called "How the Economic Machine Works" that explains it all in very simple terms. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0)

Green Eggs - That was good.  I didn't really like the end of the story.  The portion, "The Lost Decade,"  is a bit depressing.  It may take 10 years to climb out of this economic trough.  Not mentioned in the film is the means to making the money.  If you simply cannot produce a saleable good or service, you cannot borrow and get those economic gears turning again.  In the movie, even the bar didn't do well in the end.  We might be in for some trouble in the times ahead.

It did mention 4 ways to get out of the trough and one would be to do some necessary infrastructure projects as it would be government spending.  My prediction is that we may end up doing that in the next couple years.  It could shorten the lost decade to maybe 8 years.

The movie made me feel better living with this big stack of cards they call the economy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on May 30, 2020, 08:49:34 AM

Braces are about $5-6k for a typical course of treatment.  It is pretty easy to carve that much out of travel, eating out, or other "nice to have but not truly necessary" line items in the budget.  Or somebody takes a temporary or PT job for awhile if it is really causing you to have bucket levels drop below where you feel comfortable.

Similarly with kids activities -- unless they are in non-school sports where there are a bunch of travel and add on costs this is not going to exceed a few $$$/month.  I also recommend not having kids in too many activities.  They can work to pay some of the cost at a certain point, too.

Stuff is going to come up, regardless.  But people in this range of savings should be able to handle the unexpected expenses without too much pain.  We have absorbed the following since FIREing with no real issues:

2015 New (modest) car purchase after car we were using was totaled, roughly $20k
2017 Braces for DD, $6k
2017 Unexpected repair to faulty window, $5-6k
2020 Sewer line repair, $20k

The latter means we will defer replacement of our backyard fence + some additional landscaping for an additional year.  Annoying but really no big deal.

So based on our track record maybe you figure in an extra $10-15k/year for those "oh shit, gotta spend some money we hadn't planned" moments?  And keep plenty in the living expenses bucket so that you can wait until a good time to sell longer-term investments and top things off again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 30, 2020, 10:40:24 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on May 30, 2020, 12:15:22 AM

@BeanCounter, if 5% of stash = 3 years of expenses then mathematically you're already at 60 years of expenses in total assets....sounds like any way you slice it you're going to die very very rich.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

My bad. Cash is 8% invested assets not 5%. I was not including our bank account in the call but was including it in the three years living expenses.
I estimate we’re closer to 37 years. But that expense numbers includes private school tuition and a mortgage that will go away at some point.

Regardless I hear what you all are saying overall. Expenses will go up and down as you raise kids and grow older but you can weather it fairly well if you’ve passed the $2M mark. Which makes sense. Most things can be covered with $20k which is an extra 1% of $2M.
We are well beyond that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 01, 2020, 02:50:14 PM

Y’all sure quieted down. Here are a couple of interesting things to look at. First, Credit Suisse puts out an interesting global investment returns yearbook. You can download a summary gratis.

(Scroll down past the ESG balderdash stuff and there’s a link for the .pdf)

https://www.credit-suisse.com/about-us-news/en/articles/news-and-expertise/esg-investing-a-trend-that-is-constantly-evolving-202002.html

Also, a really good interview with James Ferguson on inflation on the MoneyWeek podcast. The stuff on inflation starts about halfway through.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on June 02, 2020, 07:45:15 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 30, 2020, 10:40:24 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on May 30, 2020, 12:15:22 AM

@BeanCounter, if 5% of stash = 3 years of expenses then mathematically you're already at 60 years of expenses in total assets....sounds like any way you slice it you're going to die very very rich.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

My bad. Cash is 8% invested assets not 5%. I was not including our bank account in the call but was including it in the three years living expenses.
I estimate we’re closer to 37 years. But that expense numbers includes private school tuition and a mortgage that will go away at some point.

Regardless I hear what you all are saying overall. Expenses will go up and down as you raise kids and grow older but you can weather it fairly well if you’ve passed the $2M mark. Which makes sense. Most things can be covered with $20k which is an extra 1% of $2M.
We are well beyond that.

So you are at a 2.7% WR with those.....and I imagine that if you are ponying up for private school there are probably other discretionary items in your spending that give you more flexibility.   

The only excuse then would be that you enjoy working, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 02, 2020, 08:53:45 AM

Well, the march up continues.  My trusty spread sheet is showing this in a couple ways.  First, the $$ to get to my next target, which was only dollars away before the bottom dropped out is in the $60k'ish area.  Well within striking distance.  The next is the percentages in the AA slots.  I rebalance at 5% excursions.  I'm over 3%, and I can see hitting 5% soon, which would trigger a sale of equities to buy bonds.  A potential negating factor is that we just signed my wife up to the 401k in her new job and all that money will go to Vanguard Total Bond for now.  She wasn't overly happy to hear that the % contribution is 67% of her pay.  With about half the year gone, and being over 50, $26k takes lots of the income away.  We're well into the 24% federal tax bracket now and even after both of our 401k's and my FSA, we'll still be there.  No Roth for us this year!  (and with way too much deductible IRA money...there will be no backdoor Roth either).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 02, 2020, 02:18:10 PM

I got a little more conservative today.. I pulled roughly another $200k from stocks to cash (short term money market within 401k).

Now running at roughly 65/14/21 stocks/bonds/cash.

Seems a reasonable allocation for an old retired guy like me..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on June 02, 2020, 02:25:29 PM

Just goes to show you how hard it is to time the market.......whoever sold out of stocks in the past few weeks missed some really nice returns. June is also dividend month for many funds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 02, 2020, 02:28:54 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 02, 2020, 02:25:29 PM

Just goes to show you how hard it is to time the market.......whoever sold out of stocks in the past few weeks missed some really nice returns. June is also dividend month for many funds.

Absolutely it is.. I have no doubt I am "wrong" to a degree with my latest move. Thankfully whatever I do or don't do won't make any material difference to our long term financial health.

So a little bit of dry powder in case we get the 2nd quarter plummet doesn't seem like a bad trade off.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on June 02, 2020, 03:10:39 PM

I'm not judging anyone. Our total stock exposure right now is ~41-42%

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 02, 2020, 04:58:25 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 02, 2020, 03:10:39 PM

I'm not judging anyone. Our total stock exposure right now is ~41-42%

I’ll judge you if you want. 😆

You’re about twice where I am on stock exposure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 02, 2020, 05:05:17 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 02, 2020, 04:58:25 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 02, 2020, 03:10:39 PM

I'm not judging anyone. Our total stock exposure right now is ~41-42%

I’ll judge you if you want. 😆

You’re about twice where I am on stock exposure.

Hahaha.. Well your just chicken..:)

Mind you, from what I'm seeing in America right now I'm thinking you guys are more right than I am.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 02, 2020, 06:48:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 02, 2020, 05:05:17 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 02, 2020, 04:58:25 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 02, 2020, 03:10:39 PM

I'm not judging anyone. Our total stock exposure right now is ~41-42%

I’ll judge you if you want. 😆

You’re about twice where I am on stock exposure.

Hahaha.. Well your just chicken..:)

Mind you, from what I'm seeing in America right now I'm thinking you guys are more right than I am.

(http://memecrunch.com/meme/SNZ8/who-are-you-calling-chicken/image.png)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 03, 2020, 12:46:17 AM

I have continued to be a buyer into the stock market. I think I will keep piling on in. Probably not US, but Australia and Asia.

I did convert some USD investments to AUD when the AUD tanked. The AUD has now climbed >20% and the ASX total returns index is up > 25% since then so that proved to be a winning move. I only wish I committed more to this move, but I am basically a set and forget investor, so not one to make big moves.

My Stockmarket returns for the YTD are still quite deeply in the red by a six figure sum (but massively better than was the case mid March), but thanks to spending a lot less in lockdown compared to 2019 and thanks to solid property returns in Jan/ Feb my NW has continued to grow at a good clip.

As of today my NW comprises
Stocks 43%
Realestate 47%
Defined benefit pension 7%
Cash 3%

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 03, 2020, 02:31:44 AM

You look quite spread out to weather a storm Itchyfeet.


Our accounts are within 50K of our all time high and very much in the positive for the year. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 03, 2020, 09:05:59 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 02, 2020, 02:18:10 PM

I got a little more conservative today.. I pulled roughly another $200k from stocks to cash (short term money market within 401k).

Now running at roughly 65/14/21 stocks/bonds/cash.

Seems a reasonable allocation for an old retired guy like me..:)

To cash?

Why not to bonds?  That's the traditional rebalance step.  I tell ya....when the bottom was falling out of the stock market, my bond funds continued to climb.  To keep my emotions in check, I only focus on whatever is going up.  I was ready to scream "BONDS ARE AT AN ALL TIME HIGH!!!" with the runup.  Going to cash is certainly conservative, and if you need the money (since you're retired), then who can blame you.  I agree to go to cash to be sure you have living expenses....but I don't agree for traditional rebalancing.

Quote from: Bateaux on June 03, 2020, 02:31:44 AM

You look quite spread out to weather a storm Itchyfeet.


Our accounts are within 50K of our all time high and very much in the positive for the year.

And the market continues to march.  My last post said I'm $60k away.  Today, I'm $48k away.  We are heading into all time high stock territory, at which point, I do expect a flurry of threads "Stocks are at all time highs.  What should I pull my money into to weather the obvious upcoming crash?". 

To which I would answer in advance, channeling Jack Bogle: "Don't do something.....just stand there".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on June 03, 2020, 09:48:15 AM

I updated my spreadsheet over the weekend -- first time since Feb 1.  I usually do it monthly but didn't feel like it when things were bouncing all over the place.

Our NW is down about 50k since then.  But we have had more than 50 in spending if you include a substantial gift we made to DS so that he could fully fund a Roth account.  We also spent 20k+ on our sewer line issues.  And paid the first half year installment on our property taxes (5kish).  I've also donated more than I usually do.

I know we are very fortunate to be in this position while so many others are suffering -- financially and otherwise.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 03, 2020, 10:12:25 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 03, 2020, 09:05:59 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 02, 2020, 02:18:10 PM

I got a little more conservative today.. I pulled roughly another $200k from stocks to cash (short term money market within 401k).

Now running at roughly 65/14/21 stocks/bonds/cash.

Seems a reasonable allocation for an old retired guy like me..:)

To cash?

Why not to bonds?  That's the traditional rebalance step.  I tell ya....when the bottom was falling out of the stock market, my bond funds continued to climb.  To keep my emotions in check, I only focus on whatever is going up.  I was ready to scream "BONDS ARE AT AN ALL TIME HIGH!!!" with the runup.  Going to cash is certainly conservative, and if you need the money (since you're retired), then who can blame you.  I agree to go to cash to be sure you have living expenses....but I don't agree for traditional  rebalancing.

OK. I’ll bite. Why bonds instead of cash given a ten year Treasury fetching a whole0.6%?  Seems to me like a whole lot of downside risk for a pittance in premium for a longer time horizon. Unless, of course, you expect negative interest rates.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 03, 2020, 01:40:43 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 03, 2020, 10:12:25 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 03, 2020, 09:05:59 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 02, 2020, 02:18:10 PM

I got a little more conservative today.. I pulled roughly another $200k from stocks to cash (short term money market within 401k).

Now running at roughly 65/14/21 stocks/bonds/cash.

Seems a reasonable allocation for an old retired guy like me..:)

To cash?

Why not to bonds?  That's the traditional rebalance step.  I tell ya....when the bottom was falling out of the stock market, my bond funds continued to climb.  To keep my emotions in check, I only focus on whatever is going up.  I was ready to scream "BONDS ARE AT AN ALL TIME HIGH!!!" with the runup.  Going to cash is certainly conservative, and if you need the money (since you're retired), then who can blame you.  I agree to go to cash to be sure you have living expenses....but I don't agree for traditional  rebalancing.

OK. I’ll bite. Why bonds instead of cash given a ten year Treasury fetching a whole0.6%?  Seems to me like a whole lot of downside risk for a pittance in premium for a longer time horizon. Unless, of course, you expect negative interest rates.

Well for me bonds mean "bond funds" and my go to is VBTLX (although I don't own much of it, I have similar funds in various 401k plans).

These funds did pretty well after the initial crash but seem to have stagnated. So rather than roll into bonds I decided to see which asset class pulls back.. And sure if stocks continue to climb and VBTLX takes a dump I might roll the excess cash into bond funds.

Similarly if the big stock crash we all expect happens when we get Q2 earnings well then I'll go that way.

I certainly don't need this extra cash.

I'm trying not to beat myself up for doing a conservative rebalance after I had lost some money...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 03, 2020, 09:05:56 PM

The last few pages made my head spin.  I'm glad you all are posting your plans.   We are plugging along.   I decided after loosing (ahem, rebalancing) that I will be Master of My Domain and stick with real estate.   We're buying, covid or no covid.  And, yes @Dicey, we are so so blessed that a loss in 2020 is a blip on the radar, but would have been catastrophic 15 years ago.  Like most of us in this thread, there were no silver spoons in my background.  I feel middle class even if the checkbook says differently.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 03, 2020, 09:53:48 PM

JoJoP - You remind me of a conversation I once had with my dad.  I was a little kid and was certainly noticing that we couldn't have what other people did.  So, I turned to my dad and asked him, "Dad - Are we poor?"

My dad paused for a moment before answering and finally retorted, "Son, we're lower middle class."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on June 04, 2020, 08:59:52 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on May 09, 2020, 07:18:22 PM

Well, I'm up $150K since the great covid crash of February. Anyone else up since then? I feel like my money is getting increasingly divorced from reality. 2020 has been like the worst year ever. Being isolated for months has made me miserable, and I feel like my personal productivity has gone to the dumpster. But according to my financial accounts, I've never been more successful. Nothing makes sense anymore.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11

We both hit the $2M mark within a few days of each other back in Feb.  I'm still down slightly and today my liquid assets appear to be around 1.92M.  Significantly lower than yours.  If I recall correctly, you're a very high income earner, so how much of this would you attribute to new savings and how much to recovery/growth of equity?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on June 04, 2020, 09:07:57 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 03, 2020, 09:05:56 PM

I feel middle class even if the checkbook says differently.

I struggle with where we 'fit' (not that it matters, I'll just 'do me').....it was pointed out to me in another thread that based on income I'm a 1%er (I just can't believe that, but I read it on the internet so it must be true), and based on net worth I'm in the 85 percentile (I can believe that - I'm here with you, after all).....I think of 1%ers as owning yachts and multiple homes and having 'staff'.....we do our own yard work and clean our own toilets.

Does everyone think of themselves as middle class?  Because I will always think of myself there....the closest I can come is defining myself as upper middle class.   By definition, if you're in the $2M+ thread, you are not 'middle class'

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on June 04, 2020, 10:05:13 AM

That is a bit of a weird mental dissonance that we have had to face these past few years. Our income was way up there before I quit. And honestly still is high compared to most. Our net worth clearly is high to even be posting on this thread. So yes, we are rich. But it is hard to square “rich” with how we live our lives, at least our material possessions. But that is fine.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 04, 2020, 10:10:37 AM

Quote from: bluebelle on June 04, 2020, 09:07:57 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 03, 2020, 09:05:56 PM

I feel middle class even if the checkbook says differently.

I struggle with where we 'fit' (not that it matters, I'll just 'do me').....it was pointed out to me in another thread that based on income I'm a 1%er (I just can't believe that, but I read it on the internet so it must be true), and based on net worth I'm in the 85 percentile (I can believe that - I'm here with you, after all).....I think of 1%ers as owning yachts and multiple homes and having 'staff'.....we do our own yard work and clean our own toilets.

Does everyone think of themselves as middle class?  Because I will always think of myself there....the closest I can come is defining myself as upper middle class.   By definition, if you're in the $2M+ thread, you are not 'middle class'

Hah - this is exactly the conversation that I was having with my wife this morning. We have really hit the jackpot in the recent years but decades of conditioning makes us still feel middle class at heart.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 04, 2020, 12:00:21 PM

Our wealth has increased $1,000 a day on average since this time last year.  That's what we saved plus what our accounts have earned.  We were just above the nose of 2M and now 2.375M.  We'd just written a huge check for a new roof for the Florida house.  That's incredible.   Don't feel wealthy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 04, 2020, 12:04:05 PM

I certainly don’t see myself as rich. I wouldn’t mind being rich though. I’m talking 1%er. But I couldn’t be assed doing the work.

However, I am very aware that we are much better off than most. I am well paid and no doubt we have a comfortable life.

Still, we live in a rented apartment in need of a makeover and we own just one car (and it’s 9 years old).

We clean our own apartment and try and attend to most home maintenance ourselves (in our lease, minor maintenance is paid for by the tenant),

We still nearly always fly economy unless we can use points to upgrade at a good rate..... but we do fly a lot more than what could be considered middle or median or average, at least before COVID grounded us. Still I suffer business class envy big time.

DW is a primary school teacher, and other than frequent international travel our life doesn’t look any different to her teacher friends.

I sometimes feel like I just want to blurt out to our friends and family than we are multi millionaires, but I don’t want to be judged for that so I keep quiet and keep living our comfortable middle class life.

I have even become increasingly reluctant to share holiday pics on Facebook. Our jetsetting was looking pretty conceited. So now we mostly keep it to ourselves.

The more cash I have the more stealth I feel the need to become. Only here, hidden behind an internet veil, dare I whisper that next month we will prob tick over another million milestone (AUD).

Maybe we will be rich one day.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 04, 2020, 01:00:57 PM

Quote from: bluebelle on June 04, 2020, 09:07:57 AM

Does everyone think of themselves as middle class?  Because I will always think of myself there....the closest I can come is defining myself as upper middle class.   By definition, if you're in the $2M+ thread, you are not 'middle class'

Middle class for where? We’re probably considered part of the “working poor” in Monaco or Lichtenstein!

I guess we’d consider ourselves middle class if we put any thought to it. I hadn’t even bothered to calculate NW until I added it up on the back of an envelope recently. The class awareness clearly isn’t there at our house.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 04, 2020, 02:47:09 PM

Quote from: bluebelle on June 04, 2020, 09:07:57 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 03, 2020, 09:05:56 PM

I feel middle class even if the checkbook says differently.

I struggle with where we 'fit' (not that it matters, I'll just 'do me').....it was pointed out to me in another thread that based on income I'm a 1%er (I just can't believe that, but I read it on the internet so it must be true), and based on net worth I'm in the 85 percentile (I can believe that - I'm here with you, after all).....

Does everyone think of themselves as middle class?  Because I will always think of myself there....the closest I can come is defining myself as upper middle class.   By definition, if you're in the $2M+ thread, you are not 'middle class'

According to 2016 US data, a household income of about $870,000 a year is the top 1% mark and a household net worth of $750,000 is about the top 15% mark.

Which means you could personally bring a family to the top 15% net worth mark every year or two (depending on taxes), based on your income, and still live better than most in this country.    Thought that might be an interesting perspective.

Now, based on those numbers, it should take you no time to amass enough wealth to retire if you set your mind and budget to it.

www.shnugi.com (http://www.shnugi.com)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on June 04, 2020, 02:51:07 PM

Remember the Beverly Hillbillies?  They had $63M in the 1960's and still weren't even middle-class. 


"You can't buy class."  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 04, 2020, 03:54:17 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 04, 2020, 02:51:07 PM

Remember the Beverly Hillbillies?  They had $63M in the 1960's and still weren't even middle-class. 


"You can't buy class."  ;)

That's hysterical!  I teasingly call my husband "Jed" sometimes because he will load up his truck in such a way that all it's missing is Granny in the rocking chair on top.   We can be an absolute embarrassment to the 1% with our frugal ways and middle class attitude. We seriously shop for what's on sale at the store.  Always have, always will.  I'm not buying $15-20 cocktails, like some of my friends do.  Never!   I'd say we're more Green Acres then Beverly Hillbillies. 

 Like you, @itchyfeet , I'd love to share the great news but somehow our numbers are never spoken out loud.  It's just that I'm so proud to have made it here in this club that I'd love to tell someone, but... I doubt I will.  There's no one to tell but you people.    I guess my family will figure it out when we die.  We travel a lot (did) and I don't go into the details for fear of invoking envy.  I tell people we travel on points, which is mostly true, but that only mitigates the business class airfare and sometimes hotels. 

  I have 2 best friends, one is supporting a frugal family of 5 on a modest income and the other lives the typical HCOL lifestyle and racks up debt in shocking numbers.   The HCOL friend guessed "millionaire", then "self made multi millionaire".  I didn't confirm or deny.   Our new tax guy made a very accurate guess, and the Hubs discounted it, but I think because Hubs keeps forgetting that the number is so high.   I'm the obsessed one in the family and Hubs doesn't keep track at all.   
So how much is the 1% bracket in NW? How about the 3%?  We'll never make $870,000 a YEAR, so we need to claw our way up through some other door!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 04, 2020, 04:07:59 PM

I'm guessing our neighbors think we're 'just getting by'.  I bought a middle class car new last weekend (a 2020 Corolla SE for $25k cash) and (assuming the car is now worth $0) my net worth is higher already!  Maybe I should've bought something fancier?  Maybe I'm not actually middle class like I think I am, since I seem to be winning without even trying anymore?  Or maybe the stock market is bonkers, that could be it too...

I certainly never thought I'd be in my 40's with no house debt, no car debt, and millions in investments!  I had a dream to hit one million when I was in my 20's, which seemed to fizzle when the tech bubble burst...  Nice to take the time now to reflect on all of it and cultivate gratitude.  I'm at a position where being able to give back gives me more joy than watching the numbers go up, but still have to be stealthy about that too. 

Like @itchyfeet , I'd be horrified if family, neighbors, or acquaintances got a whiff of our situation.  Living my 'normal' life could get awkward and people generally don't seem to understand the point of (or how to go about) living below ones means.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 04, 2020, 04:34:22 PM

Hah.. I "threatening" my Wife to go out and buy 'his & Her' Corvettes.

Wifey is horrified at the idea and I'm sure it would ruffle some feathers in DW's family.. Come to think of it one day I just might..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 04, 2020, 05:32:20 PM

Quote from: BlueHouse on June 04, 2020, 08:59:52 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on May 09, 2020, 07:18:22 PM

Well, I'm up $150K since the great covid crash of February. Anyone else up since then? I feel like my money is getting increasingly divorced from reality. 2020 has been like the worst year ever. Being isolated for months has made me miserable, and I feel like my personal productivity has gone to the dumpster. But according to my financial accounts, I've never been more successful. Nothing makes sense anymore.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11

We both hit the $2M mark within a few days of each other back in Feb.  I'm still down slightly and today my liquid assets appear to be around 1.92M.  Significantly lower than yours.  If I recall correctly, you're a very high income earner, so how much of this would you attribute to new savings and how much to recovery/growth of equity?

My wife just asked me what has happened to our accounts during all this, as she doesn't follow at all but the recently retired neighbor was talking about how it sucked that he retired and a month later his investments had tanked.

I told her our NW is down.... from $4 M to $3.8 M.  She stared at me and asked...um, so what's the difference?  I knew what she meant...but couldn't come up with anything other than "$200k?"  Maybe its good she doesn't keep up with it, as she missed the point at which the answer was $3.25M....but I doubt that would have been viewed any different either given neither of us would have imagined we'd ever be worth over $1M not that long ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 04, 2020, 05:49:40 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 04, 2020, 03:54:17 PM

I'm the obsessed one in the family and Hubs doesn't keep track at all.   
So how much is the 1% bracket in NW? How about the 3%?  We'll never make $870,000 a YEAR, so we need to claw our way up through some other door!

DW is the same way.  She is completely indifferent to where our finances are. So long as there's enough to support our relatively frugal lifestyle, it's just not relevant to her world.  The running joke is I have 30 seconds to talk about anything financial before the eyes glaze over.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 04, 2020, 05:57:06 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 04, 2020, 04:34:22 PM

Hah.. I "threatening" my Wife to go out and buy 'his & Her' Corvettes.

Wifey is horrified at the idea and I'm sure it would ruffle some feathers in DW's family.. Come to think of it one day I just might..:)

Yeah, but then you'd have to get rid of a perfectly good truck to make room.  That's most of why I haven't bought a newer truck.  My ancient $2000 SUV works and I'd have to get rid of it if I bought a newer truck.  And why would I want to do that?  Pffffthpt!  I'll just keep my SUV.  Even though the AC conked out.  What kind of wuss needs AC?  95 degrees is good for the sinuses. 

You can see where this is going.  I'll be pushing the SUV before I get rid of it.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 04, 2020, 08:45:07 PM

My DW also has absolutely zero interest in our financial position and investments. She never evens asks where our money is, or how much we have invested.

Thankfully she does have an interest in spending less and watches my spending like a Hawke. I don’t think she will ever let me blow money on toys irrespective of how “rich” we become, I worry that after I am gone she will be scared to spend even one penny of our savings, which really defeats the purpose of saving in the first place.

Meanwhile I am determined to spend what we have over the remainder of our lives and once I FIRE the plan is a 5% drawdown rate and only to spend less if I really must.

One thing COvID has shown me is how little it costs to stay at home and do nothing. We could really spend very little for an extended period if necessary.

So I think we will be very flexible in our spending. Some years it will be a 2% drawdown or less and some will be 8% plus I suppose.

Given long term real Stockmarket returns are around ~7%, I imagine at some point we will need to spend more than 8% a year to chew through some excess accumulation.

I don’t see his and her Corvette’s in my future, but maybe a 911 will one day grace my garage (although convincing DW will prob be an impossible task).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on June 05, 2020, 07:07:46 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 04, 2020, 02:47:09 PM

Quote from: bluebelle on June 04, 2020, 09:07:57 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 03, 2020, 09:05:56 PM

I feel middle class even if the checkbook says differently.

I struggle with where we 'fit' (not that it matters, I'll just 'do me').....it was pointed out to me in another thread that based on income I'm a 1%er (I just can't believe that, but I read it on the internet so it must be true), and based on net worth I'm in the 85 percentile (I can believe that - I'm here with you, after all).....

Does everyone think of themselves as middle class?  Because I will always think of myself there....the closest I can come is defining myself as upper middle class.   By definition, if you're in the $2M+ thread, you are not 'middle class'

According to 2016 US data, a household income of about $870,000 a year is the top 1% mark and a household net worth of $750,000 is about the top 15% mark.

Which means you could personally bring a family to the top 15% net worth mark every year or two (depending on taxes), based on your income, and still live better than most in this country.    Thought that might be an interesting perspective.

Now, based on those numbers, it should take you no time to amass enough wealth to retire if you set your mind and budget to it.

www.shnugi.com (http://www.shnugi.com)

an $870K income seems more 1%er to me than what I'm getting out of the following calculator, it's showing $200,000 is in the 99 percentile for Ontario which feels really low to be a 1% and suggests one of two things, there are problems with the data or there are more people working for minimum wage than I think
https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.com/income-percentile-calculator-by-province-for-canada/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on June 05, 2020, 07:37:37 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 04, 2020, 02:47:09 PM

Quote from: bluebelle on June 04, 2020, 09:07:57 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 03, 2020, 09:05:56 PM

I feel middle class even if the checkbook says differently.

I struggle with where we 'fit' (not that it matters, I'll just 'do me').....it was pointed out to me in another thread that based on income I'm a 1%er (I just can't believe that, but I read it on the internet so it must be true), and based on net worth I'm in the 85 percentile (I can believe that - I'm here with you, after all).....

Does everyone think of themselves as middle class?  Because I will always think of myself there....the closest I can come is defining myself as upper middle class.   By definition, if you're in the $2M+ thread, you are not 'middle class'

According to 2016 US data, a household income of about $870,000 a year is the top 1% mark and a household net worth of $750,000 is about the top 15% mark.

Which means you could personally bring a family to the top 15% net worth mark every year or two (depending on taxes), based on your income, and still live better than most in this country.    Thought that might be an interesting perspective.

Now, based on those numbers, it should take you no time to amass enough wealth to retire if you set your mind and budget to it.

www.shnugi.com (http://www.shnugi.com)

$870K income feels like a 1%er to me....but according to the website below, slightly less than $200K puts you in the 99 percentile in Ontario.   That is very surprising.   I feel like the data is flawed in someway, like the incomes included are for all Ontarians rather than those that consider themselves employed full time.   Or, as been pointed out to me, I'm out of touch and there are alot of folks working minimum wage jobs.

https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.com/income-percentile-calculator-by-province-for-canada/

Don't get me wrong, a salary north of $200K is not too shabby, but it's not what I think of when I think 1%er.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 05, 2020, 08:01:00 AM

Quote from: bluebelle on June 05, 2020, 07:07:46 AM

an $870K income seems more 1%er to me than what I'm getting out of the following calculator, it's showing $200,000 is in the 99 percentile for Ontario which feels really low to be a 1% and suggests one of two things, there are problems with the data or there are more people working for minimum wage than I think
https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.com/income-percentile-calculator-by-province-for-canada/

As always comes up in these discussions, numbers should be adjusted for geographic location and age.  It doesn't make sense to compare a household of two 55 year olds living and working in Manhattan to a 25 year old getting their first job in Lima, Ohio.  1% is very different for  these situations.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 05, 2020, 08:10:41 AM

Tossing around the jobs number in my head this morning.  The talking head on CNBC are having an orgy.  I'm very hopeful the 2.5 million jobs number is correct.   It's however a 10 million jobs difference in expectations!  So to me that means the numbers are bunk.   These estimates mean nothing and don't use them for advisement. Sitting in my current position, I'll make a shit ton of money to end this week.  All this exuberance is coming however when we may return to 80 or 90 percent of our previous economy?  All this with trillions of stimulus.   I guess I'll keep playing the game as long as the Fed is right checks.  We're almost back to personal all time portfolio highs and only 100K or so from the FIRE number.  That is till I bump the FIRE number up again.😁

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 05, 2020, 10:14:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 05, 2020, 08:10:41 AM

Tossing around the jobs number in my head this morning.  The talking head on CNBC are having an orgy.  I'm very hopeful the 2.5 million jobs number is correct.   It's however a 10 million jobs difference in expectations!  So to me that means the numbers are bunk.   These estimates mean nothing and don't use them for advisement. Sitting in my current position, I'll make a shit ton of money to end this week.  All this exuberance is coming however when we may return to 80 or 90 percent of our previous economy?  All this with trillions of stimulus.   I guess I'll keep playing the game as long as the Fed is right checks.  We're almost back to personal all time portfolio highs and only 100K or so from the FIRE number.  That is till I bump the FIRE number up again.😁

I'm thinking that what we see as insanity might well be perfectly rational and we just don't want to see it.  Maybe the pricing of US equities merely reflects that the premium for risk has eroded to the point that it's almost nonexistent. I took a look at the CAPE yield for the SP a couple of weeks ago (Inverse of CAPE minus 10yr treasury rate) and it was less than 3%. Probably even lower now. There's a lot of money sloshing around out there looking for yield and the risk premium is being bid way down. This could just be the new reality that has been evolving over the years (e.g. long term increase in CAPE and PEs).  More people see the famous turkey graph, decide that they're going to Win Bigly in the stock market over the long haul so they pile in, and thus the prices rise and the long term yields drop.

To which my response is good luck with that.       

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on June 05, 2020, 03:51:36 PM

This interesting medium post suggests that having a slightly bigger stash is more important than asset allocation.

https://medium.com/@justusjp/how-important-is-asset-allocation-versus-withdrawal-rates-in-retirement-375e7a72591b

conclusion:

"Instead of stressing about trying to pick “the right” asset allocation, you’re better off picking anything reasonable and ignoring every other asset allocation internet discussion for the rest of your life…and then working an extra six or twelve months to pad out your retirement fund before retiring."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 05, 2020, 04:51:09 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on June 05, 2020, 03:51:36 PM

This interesting medium post suggests that having a slightly bigger stash is more important than asset allocation.

https://medium.com/@justusjp/how-important-is-asset-allocation-versus-withdrawal-rates-in-retirement-375e7a72591b

conclusion:

"Instead of stressing about trying to pick “the right” asset allocation, you’re better off picking anything reasonable and ignoring every other asset allocation internet discussion for the rest of your life…and then working an extra six or twelve months to pad out your retirement fund before retiring."

Already lowered the withdrawal rate to 3%.  Probably need to push the stash a little higher as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on June 05, 2020, 05:02:40 PM

Interesting (though I think I prefer ERN's articles on similar topics: which I think also show that a slightly lower withdrawal rate is more important than picking the perfect asset allocation: though I think from memory that he does also show that some of the dynamic approaches can improve your chances in a relatively painless way (in that they stop you becoming mega-wealthy if you retire into a great sequence of returns - which I can live with - but also help put a floor under the worst cases).

As my AA starts to come up to something vaguely sensible (rather than <50% equities, as it was, which I don't think ANYBODY suggests is a good allocation for early retirement) I need to start to read up a bit more thoroughly on this stuff...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 05, 2020, 08:57:45 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on June 05, 2020, 03:51:36 PM

This interesting medium post suggests that having a slightly bigger stash is more important than asset allocation.

https://medium.com/@justusjp/how-important-is-asset-allocation-versus-withdrawal-rates-in-retirement-375e7a72591b

conclusion:

"Instead of stressing about trying to pick “the right” asset allocation, you’re better off picking anything reasonable and ignoring every other asset allocation internet discussion for the rest of your life…and then working an extra six or twelve months to pad out your retirement fund before retiring."

Thanks - You made me feel better about going the OMY twice.  Going from 4 percent to 3.7 percent does not seem that severe.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 06, 2020, 12:51:26 AM

I certainly feel more relaxed about asset allocation than other questions pertaining to FIRE.

Mostly what I am worried about is what will I do if I am not working 50 hours a week, and what do we wish our life to look like 5 or 10 years from now.

On the money side I am mostly worried about whether we should be budgeting to financially support our parents, and maybe even our nieces and nephews, and how much support should we anticipate giving. I think it’s going to be difficult for us to live our very cashed up retirement whilst our families are on struggle street. I just don’t see us turning our backs and saying “they made their decisions we made ours. Let them live the consequences”. Not that our nieces and nephews made any decision, but they are victims of their parents’ decisions.

I found out this week that DW’s father has saved $300K for retirement and will retire this year. That is not going to go far especially as DW’s mother suffers from Parkinson’s disease and is in ever increasing need of care. If we could give them 10k or 20k a year it would greatly boost their quality of life. By working one more year we could provide that level of financial support for the rest of their lives.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on June 06, 2020, 01:25:44 AM

But surely you could work two more years and provide them even better end of life support, why not a third to save hundreds of thousands in impoverished countries from preventable disease, and a fourth to adopt your long lost stepson, 2B1S.

Just kidding, but see how this is a slippery slope?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 06, 2020, 02:56:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 05, 2020, 04:51:09 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on June 05, 2020, 03:51:36 PM

This interesting medium post suggests that having a slightly bigger stash is more important than asset allocation.

https://medium.com/@justusjp/how-important-is-asset-allocation-versus-withdrawal-rates-in-retirement-375e7a72591b

conclusion:

"Instead of stressing about trying to pick “the right” asset allocation, you’re better off picking anything reasonable and ignoring every other asset allocation internet discussion for the rest of your life…and then working an extra six or twelve months to pad out your retirement fund before retiring."

Already lowered the withdrawal rate to 3%.  Probably need to push the stash a little higher as well.

With the "Staying at home" I was below 3% closer to 2. Think the one good thing that came or is coming out of this is just that. Definitely will be staying at 3% even as things return to whatever the new normal will look like.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 06, 2020, 03:32:35 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 06, 2020, 01:25:44 AM

But surely you could work two more years and provide them even better end of life support, why not a third to save hundreds of thousands in impoverished countries from preventable disease, and a fourth to adopt your long lost stepson, 2B1S.

Just kidding, but see how this is a slippery slope?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

And maybe you are right. Maybe the right thing is for a healthy, still 40 something, guy to keep working a few more years and not just one.... or heaven forbid none. 😉

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on June 06, 2020, 06:41:32 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on June 06, 2020, 03:32:35 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 06, 2020, 01:25:44 AM

But surely you could work two more years and provide them even better end of life support, why not a third to save hundreds of thousands in impoverished countries from preventable disease, and a fourth to adopt your long lost stepson, 2B1S.

Just kidding, but see how this is a slippery slope?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

And maybe you are right. Maybe the right thing is for a healthy, still 40 something, guy to keep working a few more years and not just one.... or heaven forbid none. 😉

We have all those thoughts because most of our siblings have made bad.decisions. However, it's his family that is likely to expect a hand out, but he definitely isn't healthy. It's skeleton muscular, not something that is going to kill him, but getting away from the stress of his job might help with the pain.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 06, 2020, 11:42:12 AM

IXTAP, I think you misunderstood.

DW’s father health is fine. He is retiring to look after his wife who suffers from Parkinson’s. She is pretty limited in what she can do on her own these days.

They don’t have much money and I feel we should help them out as with one more year of work would would be able to help out financially in a very significant way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on June 06, 2020, 12:03:08 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on June 06, 2020, 11:42:12 AM

IXTAP, I think you misunderstood.

DW’s father health is fine. He is retiring to look after his wife who suffers from Parkinson’s. She is pretty limited in what she can do on her own these days.

They don’t have much money and I feel we should help them out as with one more year of work would would be able to help out financially in a very significant way.

I was responding to the statement that a healthy 40 something in particular might feel obligated to keep working to help out family.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on June 06, 2020, 01:29:29 PM

I don't think there is any need to shame someone who enjoys their work and is continuing to work for pay beyond when they have met their own FIRE needs because they want to ensure they are in the financial position to do something to help others.  In fact I think that is pretty noble, as long as it comes from a place of really knowing themselves and as a matter of free choice -- not because of fear or guilt.  But if they are working in a toxic environment that is damaging their own mental/physical health, then they might want to consider dropping the toxic job and finding other ways to generate income to help others -- through PT or seasonal work or doing something they are passionate about.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on June 08, 2020, 01:13:16 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 06, 2020, 01:25:44 AM

But surely you could work two more years and provide them even better end of life support, why not a third to save hundreds of thousands in impoverished countries from preventable disease, and a fourth to adopt your long lost stepson, 2B1S.

Just kidding, but see how this is a slippery slope?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Slippery slope?  I'm sorry if this insults you, but I think that's about the weakest argument for ANY topic ever. 

Ixtap, I commend you. 

One thing I've learned during this COVID crisis is that generosity makes me feel really good.  I mean incredibly good.  I made a decision back in February that I would save my usual in tax-advantaged accounts, but anything that I would normally save in after-tax brokerage, I'm going to donate instead.  To charity, to causes, to gofundme, to obscene tips for people who do things that I don't want to do, and even just as cash handouts.  That's going to be about $70K this year on top of what I've already committed to my own family members.  You know what that commitment has done for me so far?  It makes me not sweat the small stuff. 

Granted, we're all at different stages of this FIRE goal, but you know what it's going to cost me to do this?  one more year.  That's NOTHING to me.  I feel so fortunate to still have a job through this pandemic, and I'm still saving a shit-ton of money.  I'm just going to save about half as much as normal.  I can still be frugal with the way I choose to live while being generous with others.  Not everyone has the same advantages that I've had my whole life and I've decided that during this period of generosity, I'm not going to judge others for how they spend their own money. 

It's so liberating.  I know, this kind of thinking could get me thrown out of MMM, but it's living a way that is meaningful to me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 08, 2020, 02:15:04 PM

Onto some dry numbers.

My spread sheet of investments always has the "next goal" set up, so I can look and think "Only this much more to go until I have $xxxx".  Well, at close today, it's a minus sign, so ticked over $2.8MM invested.  I'll wait for the end of the week, assuming things stick before changing the goal to $2.9MM.  With the wife's 401k just set up in her new job, that will add quite a bit to our contributions (set up to invest the entire $26k for her before the end of the year). 

Onward and (hopefully) upward.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 08, 2020, 04:08:50 PM

Quote from: BlueHouse on June 08, 2020, 01:13:16 PM

One thing I've learned during this COVID crisis is that generosity makes me feel really good.  I mean incredibly good.  I made a decision back in February that I would save my usual in tax-advantaged accounts, but anything that I would normally save in after-tax brokerage, I'm going to donate instead.  To charity, to causes, to gofundme, to obscene tips for people who do things that I don't want to do, and even just as cash handouts.  That's going to be about $70K this year on top of what I've already committed to my own family members.  You know what that commitment has done for me so far?  It makes me not sweat the small stuff. 

Granted, we're all at different stages of this FIRE goal, but you know what it's going to cost me to do this?  one more year.  That's NOTHING to me.  I feel so fortunate to still have a job through this pandemic, and I'm still saving a shit-ton of money.  I'm just going to save about half as much as normal.  I can still be frugal with the way I choose to live while being generous with others.  Not everyone has the same advantages that I've had my whole life and I've decided that during this period of generosity, I'm not going to judge others for how they spend their own money. 

It's so liberating.  I know, this kind of thinking could get me thrown out of MMM, but it's living a way that is meaningful to me.

Good for you!   

We've saved an architecturally cool house from destruction, we've helped friends start a business (and they are the kinds of folks who will do the same once they are established), we've helped a friend buy a house, we're letting medical folks stay in one of our rental houses for free so they don't infect their families with covid-19, and we're going to give a house away.   And because we've been clever about it, we've been able to recycle a lot of that money so it helps more than once.   

After we have enough for ourselves and our mentally handicapped daughter, the rest can be put to better use than just piling up more money.   

We get way more joy out of doing things like this than we would get from a fancy car or just more money in the bank.

"Money is like manure, it needs to be spread around to help young things grow."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 08, 2020, 06:01:27 PM

The Mustacian lifestyle can get you here.  No rules say you have to stop at some level.   The desire to give money away can be reason enough to work a little longer.  Putting grandchildren through college can be a goal.   You may sacrifice some of your time here on Earth working after the time needed for your own expenses.  Maybe that satisfies your own personal needs to give back.   We'll be looking at where we stand at the end of the year.  DW is ready.   She has knee replacement surgery coming up and we'll have to get her healthy before retirement.  She has taken plenty time without pay this year for various non health reasons and enjoys freedom away from work.  She loves giving back. She's done wonderful things for people in need.  I want her to have the opportunity to keep doing that. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 08, 2020, 07:00:47 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 08, 2020, 06:01:27 PM

The Mustacian lifestyle can get you here.  No rules say you have to stop at some level.   The desire to give money away can be reason enough to work a little longer.  Putting grandchildren through college can be a goal.   You may sacrifice some of your time here on Earth working after the time needed for your own expenses.  Maybe that satisfies your own personal needs to give back.   We'll be looking at where we stand at the end of the year.  DW is ready.   She has knee replacement surgery coming up and we'll have to get her healthy before retirement.  She has taken plenty time without pay this year for various non health reasons and enjoys freedom away from work.  She loves giving back. She's done wonderful things for people in need.  I want her to have the opportunity to keep doing that.

To each their own sense of fulfillment.  My goal is freedom for my family, and their kids and their kids onto the 4th generation. Better still if I can expand freedom for friends and other folks I care about as well. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on June 09, 2020, 02:52:01 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on June 08, 2020, 01:13:16 PM

It's so liberating.  I know, this kind of thinking could get me thrown out of MMM, but it's living a way that is meaningful to me.

It's also very cool!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on June 09, 2020, 06:06:45 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on June 09, 2020, 02:52:01 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on June 08, 2020, 01:13:16 PM

It's so liberating.  I know, this kind of thinking could get me thrown out of MMM, but it's living a way that is meaningful to me.

It's also very cool!

Ditto. 


The world would be a better place if there were more blue houses.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 09, 2020, 07:34:26 AM

Yeh - Maybe I'll do wonderful things for people in need.  The difference is that I'm the people in need.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on June 09, 2020, 09:02:25 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 08, 2020, 04:08:50 PM

We've saved an architecturally cool house from destruction, we've helped friends start a business (and they are the kinds of folks who will do the same once they are established), we've helped a friend buy a house, we're letting medical folks stay in one of our rental houses for free so they don't infect their families with covid-19, and we're going to give a house away.   And because we've been clever about it, we've been able to recycle a lot of that money so it helps more than once.   
"Money is like manure, it needs to be spread around to help young things grow."

This is amazing! Congratulations and it's so inspiring to me to hear what generous people are doing.  Thank you for sharing!

Quote from: pecunia on June 09, 2020, 07:34:26 AM

Yeh - Maybe I'll do wonderful things for people in need.  The difference is that I'm the people in need.

You will when you can.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 09, 2020, 09:28:04 AM

I am embarrassed to even admit how much our household's net worth has risen :-)

Completely independently,  I have come to adopt much the same approach as @BlueHouse . I've found that nothing makes me happier than helping others. Example: There is one favorite small independent pizzeria that we order from regularly. The normally cheerful owner looked  despondent last week - he was really concerned about business. On the spot I bought a $250 gift certificate that I will donate to our high school when it reopens in the fall.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 09, 2020, 10:28:56 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 09, 2020, 09:28:04 AM

I am embarrassed to even admit how much our household's net worth has risen :-)

Completely independently,  I have come to adopt much the same approach as @BlueHouse . I've found that nothing makes me happier than helping others. Example: There is one favorite small independent pizzeria that we order from regularly. The normally cheerful owner looked  despondent last week - he was really concerned about business. On the spot I bought a $250 gift certificate that I will donate to our high school when it reopens in the fall.

In my experience, capital returns are consistently much better than labor.  That's why I skip posts on savings rates, because it doesn't apply to folks that have hit FI.  I'm working for the quality of life that it brings, not for the paycheck.  But that is also why it is so important that folks who have 'won the game' do our best to help others who are early on the path of building capital.

On the flip side, DS just started his first summer job and it reminds me of how important it is not to forget how depressing it is to feel like you are a slave to the grind.  It's been humbling but fantastic for our family discussions!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LetItGrow on June 09, 2020, 12:54:37 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 09, 2020, 10:28:56 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 09, 2020, 09:28:04 AM

I am embarrassed to even admit how much our household's net worth has risen :-)

Completely independently,  I have come to adopt much the same approach as @BlueHouse . I've found that nothing makes me happier than helping others. Example: There is one favorite small independent pizzeria that we order from regularly. The normally cheerful owner looked  despondent last week - he was really concerned about business. On the spot I bought a $250 gift certificate that I will donate to our high school when it reopens in the fall.

In my experience, capital returns are consistently much better than labor.  That's why I skip posts on savings rates, because it doesn't apply to folks that have hit FI.  I'm working for the quality of life that it brings, not for the paycheck.  But that is also why it is so important that folks who have 'won the game' do our best to help others who are early on the path of building capital.

On the flip side, DS just started his first summer job and it reminds me of how important it is not to forget how depressing it is to feel like you are a slave to the grind.  It's been humbling but fantastic for our family discussions!

Have you considered giving him a 'match' if he contributes to a Roth? I was looking at my SSN record and thinking 'what if that $2000 I made in 1987 was put into an SP500 fund?'

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 09, 2020, 01:59:06 PM

Quote from: LetItGrow on June 09, 2020, 12:54:37 PM

Have you considered giving him a 'match' if he contributes to a Roth? I was looking at my SSN record and thinking 'what if that $2000 I made in 1987 was put into an SP500 fund?'

It's an interesting idea, but I'd worry that his first experience with investing has him losing money over the short term and he won't have chance to recover during the school year.  I'm still not convinced that this is a good time to commit what is essentially all his money to investments which may lose a substantial %.

I'll revisit the decision if we get back down to S&P 2400, and maybe start a Roth in his name at that time so that he gets to keep 'his money' and watch the 'free' investments, with less worry about if they are depressed for a while.

My Dad did something similar with me by gifting me P&G stock (certificates actually).  Good learning experience, but now it is more of a few thousand dollar annoyance (reporting the taxable income and keeping track of the cost basis).  I'd sell it all but the paperwork hardly seems worth the hassle.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 09, 2020, 02:49:29 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 09, 2020, 10:28:56 AM

In my experience, capital returns are consistently much better than labor.  That's why I skip posts on savings rates, because it doesn't apply to folks that have hit FI.  I'm working for the quality of life that it brings, not for the paycheck.  But that is also why it is so important that folks who have 'won the game' do our best to help others who are early on the path of building capital.

Capital gains are usually the bestest as they're taxed at a much lower rate. 

Quote

On the flip side, DS just started his first summer job and it reminds me of how important it is not to forget how depressing it is to feel like you are a slave to the grind.  It's been humbling but fantastic for our family discussions!

Dittoes on setting up the Roth.  You can always put the money into something else (cash? bonds? gold? pork bellies? seashell futures?) in the short run and pivot into equities at a later date. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 09, 2020, 02:57:28 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 09, 2020, 09:28:04 AM

I am embarrassed to even admit how much our household's net worth has risen :-)

Completely independently,  I have come to adopt much the same approach as @BlueHouse . I've found that nothing makes me happier than helping others. Example: There is one favorite small independent pizzeria that we order from regularly. The normally cheerful owner looked  despondent last week - he was really concerned about business. On the spot I bought a $250 gift certificate that I will donate to our high school when it reopens in the fall.

Good for you! Even better, did you tell him what you're going to do with them? I suspect that might make him happier still. I think a lot of business owners would appreciate having reasons for keeping the doors open. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of Mom & Pop shops just decided to hang it up after this. Knowing they are important in their communities would appreciated, whatever they decide to do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 03:48:44 PM

You all are a bad influence. After all the discussion up thread about holding more cash I started to get more uncomfortable. We decided to rebalance our portfolio last week. Backing down off the 80/10/10 (or so) that I had determined to stay with. We are now at 70% equity, 20% bonds and, 10% cash.
I did meet with the financial advisor we have used in the past and he talked me out of moving it to cash and instead going to a bond fund and some muni bonds. He said if you're going to move it to cash then you should pay off your mortgage. We just refinanced to a 2.75% rate, so we decided to go with moving to some bond funds and revisit paying off the mortgage when things in the economy feels like it has stabilized a little. Even better he showed us that the managed S&P brokerage account we have for tax purposes had enough losses accumulated that we could offset any gains on what we sell in the other brokerage account. Somehow I had missed this in my own analysis. Which means half our $1M outside of retirement accounts is now much more conservative and available to pay bills in the future.
We rebalanced last Friday, getting a little market pick up. We're now down only 3% from the February highs. And I feel we now can better weather another big downturn.
More importantly-I'm putting my notice in this Friday!!!!!! I'm planning to just give them nine weeks to figure it out, which probably isn't enough for them, but more than I really want to do. I'll just be glad to get my notice in and over with!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 09, 2020, 04:15:29 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 03:48:44 PM

You all are a bad influence. After all the discussion up thread about holding more cash I started to get more uncomfortable. We decided to rebalance our portfolio last week. Backing down off the 80/10/10 (or so) that I had determined to stay with. We are now at 70% equity, 20% bonds and, 10% cash.
I did meet with the financial advisor we have used in the past and he talked me out of moving it to cash and instead going to a bond fund and some muni bonds. He said if you're going to move it to cash then you should pay off your mortgage. We just refinanced to a 2.75% rate, so we decided to go with moving to some bond funds and revisit paying off the mortgage when things in the economy feels like it has stabilized a little. Even better he showed us that the managed S&P brokerage account we have for tax purposes had enough losses accumulated that we could offset any gains on what we sell in the other brokerage account. Somehow I had missed this in my own analysis. Which means half our $1M outside of retirement accounts is now much more conservative and available to pay bills in the future.
We rebalanced last Friday, getting a little market pick up. We're now down only 3% from the February highs. And I feel we now can better weather another big downturn.
More importantly-I'm putting my notice in this Friday!!!!!! I'm planning to just give them nine weeks to figure it out, which probably isn't enough for them, but more than I really want to do. I'll just be glad to get my notice in and over with!

Congratulations on your soon to be retirement!  Please try to remember us (not) poor slobs who continue to labor away.   

ETA: I'm glad we're a bad influence on you.  You're well on your way to perdition and wickedness. Too bad that you'll have to give up your simple path to wealth secret-decoder ring now. 

"That BeanCounter was such a good person till he (she?) fell in with those MMM folks." 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 09, 2020, 04:38:53 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 03:48:44 PM

-SNIP-

We rebalanced last Friday, getting a little market pick up. We're now down only 3% from the February highs. And I feel we now can better weather another big downturn.

More importantly-I'm putting my notice in this Friday!!!!!! I'm planning to just give them nine weeks to figure it out, which probably isn't enough for them, but more than I really want to do. I'll just be glad to get my notice in and over with!

Congratulations!

Here's the deal.  How much do they give to some poor slob they are letting go?  Last December they told some guys I worked with the Friday before Christmas that they were gone that afternoon.  I gave them two weeks when I left and did not burn any bridges.  You are more than generous.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 05:34:08 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 09, 2020, 04:15:29 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 03:48:44 PM

You all are a bad influence. After all the discussion up thread about holding more cash I started to get more uncomfortable. We decided to rebalance our portfolio last week. Backing down off the 80/10/10 (or so) that I had determined to stay with. We are now at 70% equity, 20% bonds and, 10% cash.
I did meet with the financial advisor we have used in the past and he talked me out of moving it to cash and instead going to a bond fund and some muni bonds. He said if you're going to move it to cash then you should pay off your mortgage. We just refinanced to a 2.75% rate, so we decided to go with moving to some bond funds and revisit paying off the mortgage when things in the economy feels like it has stabilized a little. Even better he showed us that the managed S&P brokerage account we have for tax purposes had enough losses accumulated that we could offset any gains on what we sell in the other brokerage account. Somehow I had missed this in my own analysis. Which means half our $1M outside of retirement accounts is now much more conservative and available to pay bills in the future.
We rebalanced last Friday, getting a little market pick up. We're now down only 3% from the February highs. And I feel we now can better weather another big downturn.
More importantly-I'm putting my notice in this Friday!!!!!! I'm planning to just give them nine weeks to figure it out, which probably isn't enough for them, but more than I really want to do. I'll just be glad to get my notice in and over with!

Congratulations on your soon to be retirement!  Please try to remember us (not) poor slobs who continue to labor away.   

ETA: I'm glad we're a bad influence on you.  You're well on your way to perdition and wickedness. Too bad that you'll have to give up your simple path to wealth secret-decoder ring now. 

"That BeanCounter was such a good person till he (she?) fell in with those MMM folks."

Thanks!
I don’t know how much “perdition and wickedness” there will be. I’m just a mom. My FIRE goal is to attempt to give my boys the very best of me as they go through middle and high school. Though I’m sure there is room for some fun in there too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on June 09, 2020, 06:08:44 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 05:34:08 PM

I’m just a mom.

I hope you don't think me obnoxious or chauvinistic, but I FIFY.  Moms are the best.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 06:15:50 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 09, 2020, 06:08:44 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 05:34:08 PM

I’m just a mom.

I hope you don't think me obnoxious or chauvinistic, but I FIFY.  Moms are the best.

Haha. I kinda needed that today. Not my best day moming.
It’s already been a long summer of nothing and we are all over it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on June 09, 2020, 06:22:48 PM

Congratulations!

Being around for my kids' teen years has been a great choice for our family. Quarantine with DD home from school has actually been pretty nice -- no alarms!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 09, 2020, 06:24:11 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 09, 2020, 04:38:53 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 03:48:44 PM

-SNIP-

We rebalanced last Friday, getting a little market pick up. We're now down only 3% from the February highs. And I feel we now can better weather another big downturn.

More importantly-I'm putting my notice in this Friday!!!!!! I'm planning to just give them nine weeks to figure it out, which probably isn't enough for them, but more than I really want to do. I'll just be glad to get my notice in and over with!

Congratulations!

Here's the deal.  How much do they give to some poor slob they are letting go?  Last December they told some guys I worked with the Friday before Christmas that they were gone that afternoon.  I gave them two weeks when I left and did not burn any bridges.  You are more than generous.

I learned a really good life lesson about that when I was younger.  I found a new job that paid me almost double what I was earning at my job at the time.  I gave them the full 2 weeks notice the day I knew I was leaving.  They paid me through that day and sent me on my way.  I really could've used the money and the work in the two week interim period.  But no dice. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 06:43:27 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 09, 2020, 06:24:11 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 09, 2020, 04:38:53 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 03:48:44 PM

-SNIP-

We rebalanced last Friday, getting a little market pick up. We're now down only 3% from the February highs. And I feel we now can better weather another big downturn.

More importantly-I'm putting my notice in this Friday!!!!!! I'm planning to just give them nine weeks to figure it out, which probably isn't enough for them, but more than I really want to do. I'll just be glad to get my notice in and over with!

Congratulations!

Here's the deal.  How much do they give to some poor slob they are letting go?  Last December they told some guys I worked with the Friday before Christmas that they were gone that afternoon.  I gave them two weeks when I left and did not burn any bridges.  You are more than generous.

I learned a really good life lesson about that when I was younger.  I found a new job that paid me almost double what I was earning at my job at the time.  I gave them the full 2 weeks notice the day I knew I was leaving.  They paid me through that day and sent me on my way.  I really could've used the money and the work in the two week interim period.  But no dice.

I worked at a large insurer previously and this was our policy. However when I was laid off as part of a major re-organization they gave me ten weeks severance and asked me to stay four of the ten to turn over and train remaining staff on my spreadsheets, models, processes and procedures. I said no and gave them one week. I mean that’s bullshit right? Other folks didn’t have to work any of their ten weeks of severance!
I’m pretty sure this job will have a hard time with my resignation. I’ve been a SME there for eight years. In some instances I know where the bodies are hidden. I can name at least three things off the top of my head that nobody else knows how to do. This gives me a lot of anxiety.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 09, 2020, 07:16:20 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 06:43:27 PM

I’m pretty sure this job will have a hard time with my resignation. I’ve been a SME there for eight years. In some instances I know where the bodies are hidden. I can name at least three things off the top of my head that nobody else knows how to do. This gives me a lot of anxiety.

I was following until you got to that last sentence.  Why?   Will people die if they do this wrong?   Will people get maimed?   Will a city lose electrical power or get flooded out if they do these tasks wrong?   Will it affect your net worth?

Because if the downside is a corporation - a legal body that has no soul - will just make less money, simply don't give a damn.   

If the organization does good things for people and you believe in its mission, then go the extra mile because of its mission.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: fredbear on June 09, 2020, 07:25:05 PM

Quote from: LetItGrow on June 09, 2020, 12:54:37 PM

Have you considered giving him a 'match' if he contributes to a Roth? I was looking at my SSN record and thinking 'what if that $2000 I made in 1987 was put into an SP500 fund?'

I set up a family 401(k), with a 1:1 match up to 10% of the part of their earnings that they invested.  The chosen mutual fund paid quarterly dividends and I graphed it all, so they could see their contributions, the match, and the tiny but compounding dividends,  It helped make savers of them all. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 09, 2020, 07:38:15 PM

Congratulations Beancounter.  It's going to be awesome.  Please stick around and share the good news.  We're trying to get it done by year end.  Maybe burn off some vacation in 2021, but not much if any work.  A friend just texted me a reminder of our Canada to Mexico mountain bike trip next summer.  I hope to be on the Appalachian Trail by March.   Life is good.  Have fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on June 10, 2020, 12:52:31 AM

Congratulations BeanCounter!! I want to do more Mumming when I retire next year too, so wishing you all the best, and please let us know how it all goes!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 10, 2020, 05:02:48 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 09, 2020, 07:16:20 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 06:43:27 PM

I’m pretty sure this job will have a hard time with my resignation. I’ve been a SME there for eight years. In some instances I know where the bodies are hidden. I can name at least three things off the top of my head that nobody else knows how to do. This gives me a lot of anxiety.

I was following until you got to that last sentence.  Why?   Will people die if they do this wrong?   Will people get maimed?   Will a city lose electrical power or get flooded out if they do these tasks wrong?   Will it affect your net worth?

Because if the downside is a corporation - a legal body that has no soul - will just make less money, simply don't give a damn.   

If the organization does good things for people and you believe in its mission, then go the extra mile because of its mission.

I agree completely with SwordGuy.  If you are the only one that can do certain things, they have run their organization poorly.  There should be no bodies.  Don't make their problem your problem.  And,......he is right corporations may be legally defined as people, but have no soul, no compassion and no remorse for their actions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on June 10, 2020, 06:39:56 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 06:15:50 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 09, 2020, 06:08:44 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 05:34:08 PM

I’m just a mom.

I hope you don't think me obnoxious or chauvinistic, but I FIFY.  Moms are the best.

Haha. I kinda needed that today. Not my best day moming.
It’s already been a long summer spring of nothing and we are all over it.

Summer starts 6/22, so only spring has to be over!  :-)  Make summer the best!

We are dipping our toes in the next race, as we crossed over the $2 million mark two days ago.  It's slow going now that I am retired and we have a kid in college. We will be hovering in this race and the last one for awhile as college payments/tax bills will keep us instant replaying the $2 million finish line for a few more months. I planted two pear trees they day we crossed for the first time vs. paying $65 to have the nursery plant them.  More DIY projects get completed in retirement for sure.

Moms are the best, but teenagers don't necessarily appreciate you. I hope you love your retirement, and I will tell you that your company will survive just fine without you - they may complain a bit about the remaining coworkers left behind, but they will survive.  From one beancounter to another! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 10, 2020, 03:29:44 PM

Quote from: couponvan on June 10, 2020, 06:39:56 AM

We are dipping our toes in the next race, as we crossed over the $2 million mark two days ago.  It's slow going now that I am retired and we have a kid in college. We will be hovering in this race and the last one for awhile as college payments/tax bills will keep us instant replaying the $2 million finish line for a few more months. I planted two pear trees they day we crossed for the first time vs. paying $65 to have the nursery plant them.  More DIY projects get completed in retirement for sure.

Moms are the best, but teenagers don't necessarily appreciate you. I hope you love your retirement, and I will tell you that your company will survive just fine without you - they may complain a bit about the remaining coworkers left behind, but they will survive.  From one beancounter to another!

Congrats on crossing the line and joining this merry band of reprobates mustachians! :-p

 Looks like @Roboturner is coming to Mos Eisley soon as well. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on June 11, 2020, 06:37:49 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 10, 2020, 05:02:48 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 09, 2020, 07:16:20 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 06:43:27 PM

I’m pretty sure this job will have a hard time with my resignation. I’ve been a SME there for eight years. In some instances I know where the bodies are hidden. I can name at least three things off the top of my head that nobody else knows how to do. This gives me a lot of anxiety.

I was following until you got to that last sentence.  Why?   Will people die if they do this wrong?   Will people get maimed?   Will a city lose electrical power or get flooded out if they do these tasks wrong?   Will it affect your net worth?

Because if the downside is a corporation - a legal body that has no soul - will just make less money, simply don't give a damn.   

If the organization does good things for people and you believe in its mission, then go the extra mile because of its mission.

I agree completely with SwordGuy.  If you are the only one that can do certain things, they have run their organization poorly.  There should be no bodies.  Don't make their problem your problem.  And,......he is right corporations may be legally defined as people, but have no soul, no compassion and no remorse for their actions.

I think it's very generous of you to give so much notice.  In my experience, the company will do little or nothing until the last minute anyway and then they will spin furiously trying to get you to stay longer or trying to find someone capable of replacing you.  You might consider offering them consulting services at an extremely obscene hourly rate (with a half day minimum so you don't waste your time traveling for a one-hour meeting) to help with any knowledge transfer.   This will alleviate your anxiety and will motivate the company to get on the ball.  You may even find that you enjoy keeping a toe in the water. 
By the way, my business rates started getting high when I had business opportunities that I didn't want.  I had a hard time saying no, so I just started throwing rates are that I hoped the future clients would balk at.  They didn't blink and all of a sudden, I became very well-paid. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on June 11, 2020, 06:56:11 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on June 11, 2020, 06:37:49 AM

By the way, my business rates started getting high when I had business opportunities that I didn't want.  I had a hard time saying no, so I just started throwing rates are that I hoped the future clients would balk at.  They didn't blink and all of a sudden, I became very well-paid.

This is what happened to my friend when she didn't want to go back after maternity leave.  Suddenly found herself with a 3 day a week, 2 days from home (1 in the office), term time only contract at a very nice contractor rate.

Freedom: the gift that keeps on giving!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 11, 2020, 08:44:00 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on June 11, 2020, 06:37:49 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 10, 2020, 05:02:48 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 09, 2020, 07:16:20 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 06:43:27 PM

I’m pretty sure this job will have a hard time with my resignation. I’ve been a SME there for eight years. In some instances I know where the bodies are hidden. I can name at least three things off the top of my head that nobody else knows how to do. This gives me a lot of anxiety.

I was following until you got to that last sentence.  Why?   Will people die if they do this wrong?   Will people get maimed?   Will a city lose electrical power or get flooded out if they do these tasks wrong?   Will it affect your net worth?

Because if the downside is a corporation - a legal body that has no soul - will just make less money, simply don't give a damn.   

If the organization does good things for people and you believe in its mission, then go the extra mile because of its mission.

I agree completely with SwordGuy.  If you are the only one that can do certain things, they have run their organization poorly.  There should be no bodies.  Don't make their problem your problem.  And,......he is right corporations may be legally defined as people, but have no soul, no compassion and no remorse for their actions.

I think it's very generous of you to give so much notice.  In my experience, the company will do little or nothing until the last minute anyway and then they will spin furiously trying to get you to stay longer or trying to find someone capable of replacing you.  You might consider offering them consulting services at an extremely obscene hourly rate (with a half day minimum so you don't waste your time traveling for a one-hour meeting) to help with any knowledge transfer.   This will alleviate your anxiety and will motivate the company to get on the ball.  You may even find that you enjoy keeping a toe in the water. 
By the way, my business rates started getting high when I had business opportunities that I didn't want.  I had a hard time saying no, so I just started throwing rates are that I hoped the future clients would balk at.  They didn't blink and all of a sudden, I became very well-paid.

This is something I've actually been thinking about. I will talk to my boss tomorrow in our regular one on one. I was considering maybe telling him I'm willing to stay on full time (remote) until Aug 14th. But could be willing to work part time until end of Dec or Jan to help transition the budget and close the year. I think it could be beneficial to everyone.

I still think that I probably should work part time. Being only 43 and having young kids, combined with market instability and my husbands job not really totally stable (struggling University), it seems prudent to keep up my career. I don't think I want to work part time, long term at my current job. I actually think I want to move to seasonal tax work, which won't pay as well by a long stretch, but offers more flexibility (summers off).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on June 11, 2020, 09:19:39 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 11, 2020, 08:44:00 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on June 11, 2020, 06:37:49 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 10, 2020, 05:02:48 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 09, 2020, 07:16:20 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 09, 2020, 06:43:27 PM

I’m pretty sure this job will have a hard time with my resignation. I’ve been a SME there for eight years. In some instances I know where the bodies are hidden. I can name at least three things off the top of my head that nobody else knows how to do. This gives me a lot of anxiety.

I was following until you got to that last sentence.  Why?   Will people die if they do this wrong?   Will people get maimed?   Will a city lose electrical power or get flooded out if they do these tasks wrong?   Will it affect your net worth?

Because if the downside is a corporation - a legal body that has no soul - will just make less money, simply don't give a damn.   

If the organization does good things for people and you believe in its mission, then go the extra mile because of its mission.

I agree completely with SwordGuy.  If you are the only one that can do certain things, they have run their organization poorly.  There should be no bodies.  Don't make their problem your problem.  And,......he is right corporations may be legally defined as people, but have no soul, no compassion and no remorse for their actions.

I think it's very generous of you to give so much notice.  In my experience, the company will do little or nothing until the last minute anyway and then they will spin furiously trying to get you to stay longer or trying to find someone capable of replacing you.  You might consider offering them consulting services at an extremely obscene hourly rate (with a half day minimum so you don't waste your time traveling for a one-hour meeting) to help with any knowledge transfer.   This will alleviate your anxiety and will motivate the company to get on the ball.  You may even find that you enjoy keeping a toe in the water. 
By the way, my business rates started getting high when I had business opportunities that I didn't want.  I had a hard time saying no, so I just started throwing rates are that I hoped the future clients would balk at.  They didn't blink and all of a sudden, I became very well-paid.

This is something I've actually been thinking about. I will talk to my boss tomorrow in our regular one on one. I was considering maybe telling him I'm willing to stay on full time (remote) until Aug 14th. But could be willing to work part time until end of Dec or Jan to help transition the budget and close the year. I think it could be beneficial to everyone.

I still think that I probably should work part time. Being only 43 and having young kids, combined with market instability and my husbands job not really totally stable (struggling University), it seems prudent to keep up my career. I don't think I want to work part time, long term at my current job. I actually think I want to move to seasonal tax work, which won't pay as well by a long stretch, but offers more flexibility (summers off).

I gently remind you that during the apocalypse(s) that tax season might be extended to July 15th or later.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on June 12, 2020, 07:49:30 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on June 11, 2020, 06:37:49 AM

By the way, my business rates started getting high when I had business opportunities that I didn't want.  I had a hard time saying no, so I just started throwing rates are that I hoped the future clients would balk at.  They didn't blink and all of a sudden, I became very well-paid.

I did same. Some clients eventually found alternatives, which was totally fine with me. Average of 14 hours billable per week this year, which is still more than I want. I raised my rate again and have gotten better at saying no.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 12, 2020, 07:58:39 AM

I once left a job where I was the company's lead technologist and designed the next generation power system for their new product.  All kinds of cool things done.  I left to work for an IC company and would have my company as a customer, so to make absolutely sure they'd have plenty of time, I gave them 7 weeks notice.  The appeared to start looking for a replacement a week before my leave time, hired someone (who both my manager and I had worked with in the past) and brought them in 3 days before I left.

My take is that you can give a year's notice, and companies aren't going to look for anyone until you're turning in your badge and taking your box of personal stuff out to your car.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 12, 2020, 10:16:24 AM

Well I did it. And I cried. That sucked. I couldn't help it. It felt scary and sad all at the same time. I've had a great career there. And an awesome boss.
My boss was completely dumbstruck. Long silences. He did not know what to say. He asked if I had something else. I told him no. He immediately went to "would you be interested in part time".
So we agreed that we would think about what that would look like and talk about it next week. Any advice?
right now my list would be-
-clearly defined role (or as clearly as possible) otherwise I think I'll struggle to prioritize- does this make sense or matter? maybe I need to be flexible
-up to 20 hours per week so I could go back on my husbands insurance- school hours only
-summer weeks would be at least partially remote- because 12 year old is either too old for many camps and/or hates them

I'm not sure they'll go for any of that. But times are a changing and I do have negotiating power.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on June 12, 2020, 12:20:27 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 12, 2020, 10:16:24 AM

Well I did it. And I cried.
.
.
.
I'm not sure they'll go for any of that. But times are a changing and I do have negotiating power.

All you can do is ask and if it doesn't work for you or isn't a fit for them then oh well, you already left. 

When I resigned last June (shit, two days ago was my 1st anniversary of not working) they asked me if there was anything they could do, I said maybe...I asked for the summer off but I would still maintain client contact (just wouldn't do any BS work), then work remotely/part time after summer with less base pay but same goals and incentive comp - basically I wanted to come and go and do as I please and didn't want to be chained to a desk or computer or office but was more than happy/confident in having same goals as long as I got paid for it.  Figured I would get freedom and mostly do the stuff I liked about the job and they would get cost savings combined with similar revenue expectations. 

Needless to say they didn't go for it....something about we are a large organization and not structured to permit such arrangements....blah blah blah.   I think my response was something along the lines of "Thanks for validating my decision!"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 12, 2020, 01:59:30 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 12, 2020, 10:16:24 AM

Well I did it. And I cried.

- SNIP -

Let us know after this feeling of initial confusion is being replaced with a calm relaxed feeling over the next few weeks.  Seems like it happens to most people who make entries here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 12, 2020, 09:23:05 PM

@BeanCounter If you are anything like me you will spend several sleepless nights going over your spending budget, including waking with a start at 3am convinced you'll run out of money.

For me, feeling normal about not going to work took about 9 months..

This is a major life change and getting used to it will take time.

Good for you.. I am proud of you for taking the leap..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 13, 2020, 05:58:14 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 12, 2020, 09:23:05 PM

@BeanCounter If you are anything like me you will spend several sleepless nights going over your spending budget, including waking with a start at 3am convinced you'll run out of money.

For me, not going to work took about 9 months..

This is a major life change and getting used to it will take time.

Good for you.. I am proud of you for taking the leap..:)

I already have panic attacks and I'm still working.  My wish of  a recession prior to retirement has come true.  I'm hearing we entered recession in February.  I feel we're in a bear market, beside the rapid debt fueled recovery.  Normally recessions last 12 to 18 months.  The lower end of that range would mesh perfectly with my hopeful timeline. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 13, 2020, 07:10:32 AM

Quote from: AdrianC on June 12, 2020, 07:49:30 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on June 11, 2020, 06:37:49 AM

By the way, my business rates started getting high when I had business opportunities that I didn't want.  I had a hard time saying no, so I just started throwing rates are that I hoped the future clients would balk at.  They didn't blink and all of a sudden, I became very well-paid.

I did same. Some clients eventually found alternatives, which was totally fine with me. Average of 14 hours billable per week this year, which is still more than I want. I raised my rate again and have gotten better at saying no.

I think that is the absolutely perfect way to fade into FIRE and, except for those that work for huge inflexible companies and there's no viable no-risk consulting alternative, should be the plan.  I think we all agree that: 1) there is an amount that is 'most probably' enough, 2) more is better, 3) the amount of time you;re willing to trade for that extra $1 once you've moved past enough goes down quickly the greater the stache grows past enough and the years remaining shrink.  It has always shocked me how much variance there is in what companies will pay for fixed small projects due to hundreds of different variables.  Of course I think there's a natural tendency to underprice one's self b/c when I'm not pricing to expectation I hear about it instantly if my price is to high, but on the flip side no one ever says "what a great deal, I would have paid you twice that".  If you keep increasing your rates instead of saying no you may find you could work 3 hours/wk and make half of what you make currently at 14.  Eventually you'll price out of the final hour of work and suddenly realize you're FIREd ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 13, 2020, 09:55:15 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 12, 2020, 10:16:24 AM

Well I did it. And I cried. That sucked. I couldn't help it. It felt scary and sad all at the same time. I've had a great career there. And an awesome boss.
My boss was completely dumbstruck. Long silences. He did not know what to say. He asked if I had something else. I told him no. He immediately went to "would you be interested in part time".
So we agreed that we would think about what that would look like and talk about it next week. Any advice?
right now my list would be-
-clearly defined role (or as clearly as possible) otherwise I think I'll struggle to prioritize- does this make sense or matter? maybe I need to be flexible
-up to 20 hours per week so I could go back on my husbands insurance- school hours only
-summer weeks would be at least partially remote- because 12 year old is either too old for many camps and/or hates them

I'm not sure they'll go for any of that. But times are a changing and I do have negotiating power.

Wow, I feel like I was there with you!  My advice is don't agree to anything that you haven't had time to think about for a day or two. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 14, 2020, 07:21:52 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 12, 2020, 10:16:24 AM

Well I did it. And I cried. That sucked. I couldn't help it. It felt scary and sad all at the same time. I've had a great career there. And an awesome boss.
My boss was completely dumbstruck. Long silences. He did not know what to say. He asked if I had something else. I told him no. He immediately went to "would you be interested in part time".
So we agreed that we would think about what that would look like and talk about it next week. Any advice?
right now my list would be-
-clearly defined role (or as clearly as possible) otherwise I think I'll struggle to prioritize- does this make sense or matter? maybe I need to be flexible
-up to 20 hours per week so I could go back on my husbands insurance- school hours only
-summer weeks would be at least partially remote- because 12 year old is either too old for many camps and/or hates them

I'm not sure they'll go for any of that. But times are a changing and I do have negotiating power.

You done good. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 14, 2020, 10:46:43 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 13, 2020, 05:58:14 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 12, 2020, 09:23:05 PM

@BeanCounter If you are anything like me you will spend several sleepless nights going over your spending budget, including waking with a start at 3am convinced you'll run out of money.

For me, not going to work took about 9 months..

This is a major life change and getting used to it will take time.

Good for you.. I am proud of you for taking the leap..:)

I already have panic attacks and I'm still working.  My wish of  a recession prior to retirement has come true.  I'm hearing we entered recession in February.  I feel we're in a bear market, beside the rapid debt fueled recovery.  Normally recessions last 12 to 18 months.  The lower end of that range would mesh perfectly with my hopeful timeline.

I think secretly we all say we'd like to see a nice 50% pull back in the market so we can go 95% stocks and ride the subsequent bull.

If I an honest though, I felt pretty sick at the 35% downturn, so honestly the nice relentless trickle upwards feels a lot better.

But markets are what they are and I suspect the $200k I pulled out of stocks into cash just recently will end up costing me $$ rather than if I had just left everything the hell alone and let my asset allocation do its thing.

Cst La Vie.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 14, 2020, 11:02:49 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 14, 2020, 10:46:43 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 13, 2020, 05:58:14 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 12, 2020, 09:23:05 PM

@BeanCounter If you are anything like me you will spend several sleepless nights going over your spending budget, including waking with a start at 3am convinced you'll run out of money.

For me, not going to work took about 9 months..

This is a major life change and getting used to it will take time.

Good for you.. I am proud of you for taking the leap..:)

I already have panic attacks and I'm still working.  My wish of  a recession prior to retirement has come true.  I'm hearing we entered recession in February.  I feel we're in a bear market, beside the rapid debt fueled recovery.  Normally recessions last 12 to 18 months.  The lower end of that range would mesh perfectly with my hopeful timeline.

I think secretly we all say we'd like to see a nice 50% pull back in the market so we can go 95% stocks and ride the subsequent bull.

If I an honest though, I felt pretty sick at the 35% downturn, so honestly the nice relentless trickle upwards feels a lot better.

But markets are what they are and I suspect the $200k I pulled out of stocks into cash just recently will end up costing me $$ rather than if I had just left everything the hell alone and let my asset allocation do its thing.

Cst La Vie.

This dip period and rapid recovery doesn't count.  The bear ain't finished.  The second dip will come and hopefully a nice true recovery.  I'd prefer things move slower and DCA any purchases and not have to attempt market timing. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 14, 2020, 10:06:40 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 13, 2020, 05:58:14 AM

I already have panic attacks and I'm still working.

I hear you. I just can’t get comfortable with resigning in just 2 more months. So much wasted mental energy questioning whether we have enough. It’s draining.

DW is applying a lot of pressure on me to FIRE. She is ready to return to Australia and doesn’t like her boss. Also, as I have mentioned her mother is not well.

I think without DWs pressure I’d definitely OMY or even 2MY.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 15, 2020, 05:01:34 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on June 14, 2020, 10:06:40 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 13, 2020, 05:58:14 AM

I already have panic attacks and I'm still working.

I hear you. I just can’t get comfortable with resigning in just 2 more months. So much wasted mental energy questioning whether we have enough. It’s draining.

DW is applying a lot of pressure on me to FIRE. She is ready to return to Australia and doesn’t like her boss. Also, as I have mentioned her mother is not well.

I think without DWs pressure I’d definitely OMY or even 2MY.

I’m thinking that a lot of the trepidation about retiring is caused by the overall shift from defined benefit to defined contribution retirement plans. Arguably, those assembled here are very much on the winning side of the ledger. Yet there’s still the worry and concern.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on June 15, 2020, 07:09:33 AM

Congratulations @BeanCounter !  I think it's perfectly natural to get emotional.  It's a big change and a lot to process all at once.  Sounds like it went very well though, and hopefully you can have a nice glide path out, if that's what you want.

I am another one who is anxious about actually pulling the plug.  I think I've already mentally postponed from January (when DS starts full time nursery) to Easter 2021.  A mix of factors: partly because of covid (DS may well not actually be at nursery much then or in the run up, and my big work project is now likely to last at least into January and possibly February 2021), partly because (due to Covid) it seems unreasonable to put my nanny out of work in January (especially as I know she'd like to take a break and go travelling before the next job: which I'm hoping would be possible by Easter next year, but not sure about middle of winter).  But I'm sure there is some OMYitis in there too.

Funnily financial issues seem very far down my mental concerns about retirement.  Which I guess is reasonable given my stash.  But again I wouldn't rule out that those concerns pop up to bite me when I actually get there.

I have now joined the 2021 retirement thread though, so hoping that (and this one, and my journal) will be full of people helping keep me to timetable!  I really am jaded now, and not doing my best work.  Adrenaline, duty and occasional interest  spur me on to "good enough" most of the time, but it's no way to live long term.  Time to move on!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 15, 2020, 08:06:45 AM

The health care thing was and still is to some extent a concern about leaving.  I think the decision may be easier for those not living in the US.  You can make adjustments for most anything else, but in the health area they have you where it really hurts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on June 15, 2020, 08:14:03 AM

Yes, definitely feel relieved not to have that to think about also.

I mean, I have no idea what will happen to our health system.  There are always fears it may get privatised and with a long retirement anything can happen.  But hopefully slowly enough that I'd have time to adjust and find solutions (I mean, hopefully it won't happen at all ... but always good to be prepared).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on June 15, 2020, 08:47:03 AM

to address the skyrocketing debt that governments are incurring during covid 19 to buy votes help those out of work, they will change many of the benefits those over 65 receive as well as jack up taxes even higher.   Currently in Ontario, those 65 and over have much of their prescription costs covered.   I worry that the government will start means testing based on assets rather than taxable income or even start pulling back on health benefits.  (Canada's "free health care", isn't free and it doesn't cover dental, vision, hearing, prescriptions for those under 65)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 15, 2020, 02:08:02 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 04, 2020, 04:07:59 PM

I'm guessing our neighbors think we're 'just getting by'.  I bought a middle class car new last weekend (a 2020 Corolla SE for $25k cash) and (assuming the car is now worth $0) my net worth is higher already!  Maybe I should've bought something fancier?  Maybe I'm not actually middle class like I think I am, since I seem to be winning without even trying anymore?  Or maybe the stock market is bonkers, that could be it too...
...

Kinda tempted to take the extra NW sooner rather than later and buy a 2021 Supra (https://youtu.be/6ByPWhpelwk)...

I owned a used Supra in my late 20's and mentioned more than once that I'd love if Toyota brought it back...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 15, 2020, 07:38:57 PM

I'm going to buy a vehicle soon.  I haven't decided new or used yet.  Thinking really good used.  My car and truck are 12 years old and higher mileage.  The 2008 Accord is 218000 the 2008 F250 has 156000.  Truck parked most if the time and hope to keep 4 or 5 more years.  Replacement is planned for the Accord.  Getting the ducks lined up  for the endgame.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on June 15, 2020, 08:49:15 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 15, 2020, 07:38:57 PM

I'm going to buy a vehicle soon.  I haven't decided new or used yet.  Thinking really good used.  My car and truck are 12 years old and higher mileage.  The 2008 Accord is 218000 the 2008 F250 has 156000.  Truck parked most if the time and hope to keep 4 or 5 more years.  Replacement is planned for the Accord.  Getting the ducks lined up  for the endgame.

I was car shopping a couple of years ago & didn't have a clue about what I really wanted.  I had "4 doors, understated, but comfortable, and peppy" in mind.  I went to a CarMax and looked at a few dozen brands & models in under an hour.  Thought I wanted a Lexus until sitting in a few of them.  I realized that I preferred the German interiors styling & feel.  The Audi seemed to be the most understated of the German cars & I really liked the ride an handling.  I tested a lot of different brands & models.  The Porsche Panamera & the Audi A8 4.0T were more pricey than I wanted to spend, but I figured I should check them out just to be sure.  The Panamera was too cramped for a 4-door.  The Audi A8 was "perfect" ,but just a bit more than I wanted to spend & I was afraid the 450 Hp V-8 would get me in trouble.  It was scary fast. 


I'm glad that I tested them.  It's sort of hard to choose when you can afford whatever you want. 


Maybe you should go boat shopping first?  Because there are no cheap boats.  That will make it easier to keep from blowing too much on a car. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 15, 2020, 09:19:32 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 15, 2020, 08:49:15 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 15, 2020, 07:38:57 PM

I'm going to buy a vehicle soon.  I haven't decided new or used yet.  Thinking really good used.  My car and truck are 12 years old and higher mileage.  The 2008 Accord is 218000 the 2008 F250 has 156000.  Truck parked most if the time and hope to keep 4 or 5 more years.  Replacement is planned for the Accord.  Getting the ducks lined up  for the endgame.


I'm glad that I tested them.  It's sort of hard to choose when you can afford whatever you want. 


Maybe you should go boat shopping first?  Because there are no cheap boats.  That will make it easier to keep from blowing too much on a car.

I just went though and survived a two week period of boat fetish fury.  Glad I didn't act on desire.
The boat is affordable just like the car.  Yep, it does cause frustrations when you can buy most
anything you want, but are cursed with frugality.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 15, 2020, 09:26:53 PM

Also when younger my car shopping lasted no more than a day or two.  I've been car shopping since December.  I'm not sure I'll purchase before the coming December.  Having the ability to buy what you want and when you want takes away the whole psychological thrill of making a large purchase.  Hell two years ago I bought a house I'd never seen.  When risking 250 thousand dollars won't ruin you, even something crazy as that doesn't excite you much.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on June 15, 2020, 09:35:59 PM

Psychologists have proven that the anticipation of such a purchase is usually much more enjoyable than actual ownership, so buyer beware :)

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on June 15, 2020, 09:38:59 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 15, 2020, 09:19:32 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 15, 2020, 08:49:15 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 15, 2020, 07:38:57 PM

I'm going to buy a vehicle soon.  I haven't decided new or used yet.  Thinking really good used.  My car and truck are 12 years old and higher mileage.  The 2008 Accord is 218000 the 2008 F250 has 156000.  Truck parked most if the time and hope to keep 4 or 5 more years.  Replacement is planned for the Accord.  Getting the ducks lined up  for the endgame.


I'm glad that I tested them.  It's sort of hard to choose when you can afford whatever you want. 


Maybe you should go boat shopping first?  Because there are no cheap boats.  That will make it easier to keep from blowing too much on a car.

I just went though and survived a two week period of boat fetish fury.  Glad I didn't act on desire.
The boat is affordable just like the car.  Yep, it does cause frustrations when you can buy most
anything you want, but are cursed with frugality.

It was somehow more fun to window shop before we had the ability to cash flow toys. I don't think I have looked at a single RV since we looked that nice trailer and realized that it would not be a problem, but we still weren't inclined to pay for storage. As I recall, we bought tacos that day, instead. If we had spent all that money on a trailer, we surely would have eaten at home.

Still planning to go play with my boat tomorrow, though. I have definitely enjoyed the actual ownership of my boat much more than I did the purchase process.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on June 15, 2020, 10:22:10 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 15, 2020, 09:35:59 PM

Psychologists have proven that the anticipation of such a purchase is usually much more enjoyable than actual ownership, so buyer beware :)

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I'm that's often true.  But, you can't drive "anticipation".  ;) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 16, 2020, 07:27:21 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 15, 2020, 09:35:59 PM

Psychologists have proven that the anticipation of such a purchase is usually much more enjoyable than actual ownership, so buyer beware :)

Although I totally agree with this, I'm still really enjoying the Corolla we bought a whole heck of a lot.  It helps that we needed a 3rd car logistically, but it is also just really great to have all the new stuff like auto pilot on the highway and a good back-up camera.  I wish all cars automatically got upgraded when new cars figured out things that were essential...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 16, 2020, 10:56:41 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 16, 2020, 07:27:21 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 15, 2020, 09:35:59 PM

Psychologists have proven that the anticipation of such a purchase is usually much more enjoyable than actual ownership, so buyer beware :)

Although I totally agree with this, I'm still really enjoying the Corolla we bought a whole heck of a lot.  It helps that we needed a 3rd car logistically, but it is also just really great to have all the new stuff like auto pilot on the highway and a good back-up camera.  I wish all cars automatically got upgraded when new cars figured out things that were essential...

The simple pleasure of driving a beat-to-hell truck or SUV is vastly underrated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on June 16, 2020, 11:02:34 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 16, 2020, 10:56:41 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 16, 2020, 07:27:21 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 15, 2020, 09:35:59 PM

Psychologists have proven that the anticipation of such a purchase is usually much more enjoyable than actual ownership, so buyer beware :)

Although I totally agree with this, I'm still really enjoying the Corolla we bought a whole heck of a lot.  It helps that we needed a 3rd car logistically, but it is also just really great to have all the new stuff like auto pilot on the highway and a good back-up camera.  I wish all cars automatically got upgraded when new cars figured out things that were essential...

The simple pleasure of driving a beat-to-hell truck or SUV is vastly underrated.

I agree, my wife and I shared a 2004 Nissan Sentra for 5 months before leaving for our FIRE honeymoon, we sold it for $800.....zero stress about that car.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 16, 2020, 01:23:57 PM

Thanks for all the support guys.
I felt mostly sad for all of Friday but that feeling subsided over the weekend. Then Monday I started telling a few select people at work and felt a little sad again. My boss spoke with his boss and they decided that there just isn't a part time solution that would be mutually beneficial to both me and the company. Honestly I agree, and am glad I don't have to make the choice. So that's done. We just need to work out a transition plan.

Surprisingly I don't feel worried about the money.(at least for the moment, if/when there is a pull back I may come here and cry in my beer and fret about having to eat cat food someday) And I'm only slightly worried about insurance for the future, but since DH will be working for at least the next two years, we can kick that can down the road. I think I've made peace with the fact that we have planned the very best we could and that there is no way to predict everything. There will always be uncertainty and if I'm going to try and wait all of those out then I'll just be working forever. And I very much feel that waiting to retire until my kids are grown would be a bigger risk.

I think I'm feeling more saddest around walking away from a career that I worked very, very hard to build. And I'm recognizing that there will always be some part of me that misses the problem solving and feeling of satisfaction when I've done a good job with something. I have some worry that I may figure out later that I NEED my job back and I won't be able to get a cushy director or VP level position. And then that feeling leads me back to feeling like I'm throwing away my career.

And then I just remind myself that those are just thoughts and feelings and none of them are actually TRUE. We don't know what the future will bring. But we've done our best.
Also, meeting with my financial advisor was very reassuring. He was very confident we'd be just fine, even in a pull back or bumpy fall. He just kept telling me that having more time with family is what we'd worked and planned for and it was time to do it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on June 16, 2020, 02:29:22 PM

Well I sold about 1/2 million in equities today. The stock market really has no bearing on reality.
And even though I thought I would never time the market, it just doesn't make sense for the market to be going up now.
And I might as well take advantage of the situation, and wait for stocks to fall apart again before buying back in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 16, 2020, 03:32:21 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on June 16, 2020, 02:29:22 PM

Well I sold about 1/2 million in equities today. The stock market really has no bearing on reality.
And even though I thought I would never time the market, it just doesn't make sense for the market to be going up now.
And I might as well take advantage of the situation, and wait for stocks to fall apart again before buying back in.

Well crap. You know what that means?

You’ll have to give up your secret decoder ring.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: FiveSigmas on June 16, 2020, 07:38:43 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on June 16, 2020, 01:23:57 PM

Surprisingly I don't feel worried about the money.(at least for the moment, if/when there is a pull back I may come here and cry in my beer and fret about having to eat cat food someday)

I dunno.. might not be so bad. Cat food’s gotten pretty fancy these days. (https://dogfood.guide/green-pantry-new-line-luxury-cat-food/)

Glad you’re getting some closure with your employer. It’d be much worse if they tried to string you along for months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on June 16, 2020, 08:25:37 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 16, 2020, 03:32:21 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on June 16, 2020, 02:29:22 PM

Well I sold about 1/2 million in equities today. The stock market really has no bearing on reality.
And even though I thought I would never time the market, it just doesn't make sense for the market to be going up now.
And I might as well take advantage of the situation, and wait for stocks to fall apart again before buying back in.

Well crap. You know what that means?

You’ll have to give up your secret decoder ring.

If y'all haven't noticed, Buffalo Boris is not a fan of market timing...

;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 16, 2020, 10:09:15 PM

I work for a mega Corp and we are being asked by management to downgrade our results in the name of Coronavirus and to put money away (provisions/ deferrals etc) for a future time when the company won’t have a good excuse for bad results. Even at lower levels of the Organisation managers know there won’t be bonuses paid for 2020 so are not motivated to report good results this year, again devising schemes to defer profits to 2021/2022.

I can’t imagine my company is alone on this.

The June reporting season will be putrid, but will pave the way for stronger more consistent results in coming years as many companies exit COVID with large provisions squirreled away.

It will be interesting to see how the market reacts to the bad results that will come out in July/ August.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on June 16, 2020, 10:10:21 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on June 16, 2020, 08:25:37 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 16, 2020, 03:32:21 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on June 16, 2020, 02:29:22 PM

Well I sold about 1/2 million in equities today. The stock market really has no bearing on reality.
And even though I thought I would never time the market, it just doesn't make sense for the market to be going up now.
And I might as well take advantage of the situation, and wait for stocks to fall apart again before buying back in.

Well crap. You know what that means?

You’ll have to give up your secret decoder ring.

If y'all haven't noticed, Buffalo Boris is not a fan of market timing...

;-)

So which year is this most like?  Sorry, I forgot that THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED !!!!!!!!

from https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/would-you-106836/msg2426621/#msg2426621

Quote from: RWD on July 28, 2019, 09:17:13 AM

1/2013  [SP500 = 1462]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/is-now-a-bad-time-to-invest-in-stock-index-funds/
5/2013  [1583]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/starting-today!/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/$80k-sitting-in-cash-bc-scared-of-high-flying-stock-mkt-punch-me/ (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/$80k-sitting-in-cash-bc-scared-of-high-flying-stock-mkt-punch-me/)
10/2013  [1695]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stock-market-expensive-now-alternatives/
5/2014  [1884]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stock-market-is-high-am-i-too-late/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/is-the-stock-market-too-expensive-to-get-back-in/
7/2014  [1973]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/current-market-has-me-scared-to-invest/
9/2014  [2002]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/is-it-a-good-time-to-invest-new-money/
10/2014  [1946]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/stock-market-would-you-buy-now-or-wait/
1/2015  [2058]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stock-market-should-i-be-concerned/
3/2015  [2117]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/talk-me-out-of-timing-the-australian-market/
12/2015  [2103]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/where-to-put-a-large-windfall-with-stock-market-near-all-time-highs/
1/2016  [2013]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/about-to-sell-everything-talk-me-off-the-ledge-(or-push-me-off)-please!/
2/2017  [2280]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/does-anyone-think-we-are-in-a-bubble/
4/2017  [2359]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/top-is-in/
6/2017  [2430]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/continue-the-blog-conversation/recession-coming/
8/2017  [2476]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/getting-scared-of-stock-market/
1/2018  [2696]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/nervous-about-the-market/
3/2018  [2678]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/when-would-you-get-back-in/
5/2018  [2655]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investing-in-a-bull-market/
6/2018  [2735]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/moving-to-cash-market-timing-can%27t-believe-it/
10/2018  [2925]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/sell-index-funds-now-for-down-payment-during-recession/
2/2019  [2707]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/welp-i'm-going-to-take-a-stab-at-timing-the-market/
4/2019  [2867]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/buy-vtsax-now-while-its-this-high-or-wait-till-a-drop/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/how-concerned-are-you-about-the-everything-bubble/
5/2019  [2924]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/scared-of-investing-in-the-stock-market-now/
6/2019  [2890]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/uk-tax-discussion/global-index-tracker-is-so-high!-do-i-just-keep-putting-my-money-into-it-anyway/
7/2019 [3026]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/would-you-106836/

Miscellaneous
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/%27but-right-now-the-market-is-at-an-all-time-high-%27/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/the-great-market-crash-of-2016!/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/how-to-deal-with-losing-$117k-in-stock-market/ (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/how-to-deal-with-losing-$117k-in-stock-market/)
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/anyone-else-feeling-depressed-about-global-equities-10-year-outlook/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stocks-will-only-return-4-annually-for-next-decade-john-bogle/

yeah, there are always reasons......

Disclosure: markbike528CBX took all of $10,000 out of VTSAX at 74.89 to replenish the cash stash ($40K for current year expenses). 
Other than that, markbike528CBX retains 95+% equities holdings.
markbeck528CBX has never used 3d person before, what fun!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on June 17, 2020, 03:37:27 AM

VTI is going todamoon.

At least the rich people in this cohort can afford to miss on on the sweet gains and let inflation erode their 'stache.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 17, 2020, 03:52:08 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on June 16, 2020, 10:09:15 PM

The June reporting season will be putrid, but will pave the way for stronger more consistent results in coming years as many companies exit COVID with large provisions squirreled away.

It will be interesting to see how the market reacts to the bad results that will come out in July/ August.

I used to think that accounting was a binary yes/no kind of activity. Its only in recent years that I have come to realize how much leeway there is in interpreting various numbers :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 17, 2020, 04:22:06 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 17, 2020, 03:37:27 AM

VTI is going todamoon.

At least the rich people in this cohort can afford to miss on on the sweet gains and let inflation erode their 'stache.

Inflation? What’s that? :-p

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 17, 2020, 04:43:00 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on June 16, 2020, 08:25:37 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 16, 2020, 03:32:21 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on June 16, 2020, 02:29:22 PM

Well I sold about 1/2 million in equities today. The stock market really has no bearing on reality.
And even though I thought I would never time the market, it just doesn't make sense for the market to be going up now.
And I might as well take advantage of the situation, and wait for stocks to fall apart again before buying back in.

Well crap. You know what that means?

You’ll have to give up your secret decoder ring.

If y'all haven't noticed, Buffalo Boris is not a fan of market timing...

;-)

Moi?  Not Once have I engaged in market timing!

(to my all too frequent chagrin)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 17, 2020, 09:30:28 AM

Looks like it is slowly plodding back up.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk02SDTpvRs7kHnjGFmZ-VWn45ks-8Q%3A1592407478410&ei=tjXqXrC-GMS0swWk8axo&q=dow+jones+last+six+months&oq=dow+jones+last+six+months&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIHCAAQRhD6ATIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB46BwgAEEcQsAM6BwgjECcQnQI6BQgAEIMBOgUIABCxAzoCCAA6CggAEIMBEBQQhwI6BAgjECc6CAgAEIMBEJECUP2RCFjcwwhgjscIaAFwAHgAgAHTAYgB4xGSAQYyLjE3LjGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiw8dmQlInqAhVE2qwKHaQ4Cw0Q4dUDCAs&uact=5 (https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk02SDTpvRs7kHnjGFmZ-VWn45ks-8Q%3A1592407478410&ei=tjXqXrC-GMS0swWk8axo&q=dow+jones+last+six+months&oq=dow+jones+last+six+months&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIHCAAQRhD6ATIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB46BwgAEEcQsAM6BwgjECcQnQI6BQgAEIMBOgUIABCxAzoCCAA6CggAEIMBEBQQhwI6BAgjECc6CAgAEIMBEJECUP2RCFjcwwhgjscIaAFwAHgAgAHTAYgB4xGSAQYyLjE3LjGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiw8dmQlInqAhVE2qwKHaQ4Cw0Q4dUDCAs&uact=5)

The more things change-The more things stay the same.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on June 17, 2020, 09:53:34 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 16, 2020, 11:02:34 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 16, 2020, 10:56:41 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 16, 2020, 07:27:21 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 15, 2020, 09:35:59 PM

Psychologists have proven that the anticipation of such a purchase is usually much more enjoyable than actual ownership, so buyer beware :)

Although I totally agree with this, I'm still really enjoying the Corolla we bought a whole heck of a lot.  It helps that we needed a 3rd car logistically, but it is also just really great to have all the new stuff like auto pilot on the highway and a good back-up camera.  I wish all cars automatically got upgraded when new cars figured out things that were essential...

The simple pleasure of driving a beat-to-hell truck or SUV is vastly underrated.

I agree, my wife and I shared a 2004 Nissan Sentra for 5 months before leaving for our FIRE honeymoon, we sold it for $800.....zero stress about that car.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

+1  I have a '06 SUV that I bought new when I was still a bit silly minded.   People ask me all the time when I am going to get a new car (in a fairly upper-middle to affluent area).  Well I only just broke 100k miles, it runs good and does what I need it to plus it doesn't bother me one bit when my careless kids ride their bikes past it to get to/from garage and inevitably scuff or scratch it. 

Years ago I thought about selling it to get something more fuel efficient but the value vs cost to get something else combined with not driving that much wasn't worth it (and since FIRE my milage has gone even lower, and nonexistent during covid).  And I like my vehicle and know whats what about it. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: RWD on June 17, 2020, 10:56:28 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on June 16, 2020, 10:10:21 PM

from https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/would-you-106836/msg2426621/#msg2426621

There have been quite a few threads since that one too. Latest update:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/should-i-move-my-bond-etf-to-money-market-fund-or-cd/msg2646595/#msg2646595

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on June 17, 2020, 06:10:49 PM

The housing market is slowly dropping in our neighborhood (bay area), so we've gone below $4m in net worth. It will be really interesting to see how the longer term impact on WFH plays out in bay area real estate prices. We've paid off more than half of our house value (down payment + accelerated mortgage pay down), because the real estate market here makes me nervous for the long term

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 18, 2020, 07:19:20 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on June 17, 2020, 09:53:34 AM

+1  I have a '06 SUV that I bought new when I was still a bit silly minded.   People ask me all the time when I am going to get a new car (in a fairly upper-middle to affluent area).  Well I only just broke 100k miles, it runs good and does what I need it to plus it doesn't bother me one bit when my careless kids ride their bikes past it to get to/from garage and inevitably scuff or scratch it. 

Years ago I thought about selling it to get something more fuel efficient but the value vs cost to get something else combined with not driving that much wasn't worth it (and since FIRE my milage has gone even lower, and nonexistent during covid).  And I like my vehicle and know whats what about it.

I've done the MPG vs cost exercise more times than I can even remember.  It's always resulted in math saying to keep what I've got.  These days, with grocery store points for gas and low gas prices and a decent 35 mpg Subaru Crosstrek, and high electric rates in New England, I have fun going on to Tesla calculation sites and comparing a Model 3 cost per 100 miles to my Crosstrek.  A combination of high electric costs, low gas prices and gas discounts makes the existing ICE car a LOT cheaper per 100 miles than the Tesla, fueled with high priced electric.  And this is just fuel.  The Crosstrek is long ago paid for and maybe worth ten grand at this point.  A new Tesla would be what?  Fourty grand plus 6.25% sales tax plus title and registration and inspection and exise tax?  On top of all that, I've had the short block and valve springs replaced on the Crosstrek at 94k miles and the transmission at 53k miles.  Put in spark plugs and did 3 bad wheel bearings in the last 6 months.  Oh....and since I have a teenager, who got into 2 front end damage accidents, just paid the deductible and now have a car that's repaired and literally looks brand new.  That teen is now driving our 09 Fusion that he hit a trailer with, totaling the car, from just dents and a broken mirror.  I bought it back, which meant at the time that I spent $25 for a mirror at a junkyard, banged out the fender and happily took the $4800 check to the bank (triple what Car Max offered for the car). 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on June 18, 2020, 10:51:33 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 13, 2020, 07:10:32 AM

Quote from: AdrianC on June 12, 2020, 07:49:30 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on June 11, 2020, 06:37:49 AM

By the way, my business rates started getting high when I had business opportunities that I didn't want.  I had a hard time saying no, so I just started throwing rates are that I hoped the future clients would balk at.  They didn't blink and all of a sudden, I became very well-paid.

I did same. Some clients eventually found alternatives, which was totally fine with me. Average of 14 hours billable per week this year, which is still more than I want. I raised my rate again and have gotten better at saying no.

I think that is the absolutely perfect way to fade into FIRE and, except for those that work for huge inflexible companies and there's no viable no-risk consulting alternative, should be the plan. 

I've recommended that to a few people. Want more time off but don't want to completely pull the plug? Ask if you can early-retire and come back as a part time contractor. The company I've done most of my work for has been doing this for many years. It's a win-win. Company keeps some expertise, and only has to pay for it when they need it.

I've been a consultant/contractor/self-employed for most of my career, so for me it's just been a case of taking on less work. And the less I take, I find the less I want to take. I've been in this "transition" phase for a few years, though. Have not yet made a net withdrawal from investments. My receivables are almost nothing now, so that time is a-coming...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on June 18, 2020, 01:05:41 PM

I'm going to give a plug for the Tesla....pun intended. It's a car that keeps getting "updates" almost monthly.  My husband LOVES to play with that car.  Me - I like things that stay the same, so I am still driving my 2012 Pilot that he bought me without asking when I was still driving a 2005 Honda minivan.  The model Y comes out next year, and I KNOW he wants it.  I do worry when my car gets much over 100K miles though since we drive back and forth from VA to IL pretty regularly to visit family. I should probably look into 2 week rental prices vs the cost of a new car.

Bonuses being $0 for next year means he probably won't be able to do any funny Model Y business anyway....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on June 18, 2020, 03:33:46 PM

Quote from: couponvan on June 18, 2020, 01:05:41 PM

I'm going to give a plug for the Tesla....pun intended. It's a car that keeps getting "updates" almost monthly.  My husband LOVES to play with that car.  Me - I like things that stay the same, so I am still driving my 2012 Pilot that he bought me without asking when I was still driving a 2005 Honda minivan.  The model Y comes out next year, and I KNOW he wants it.  I do worry when my car gets much over 100K miles though since we drive back and forth from VA to IL pretty regularly to visit family. I should probably look into 2 week rental prices vs the cost of a new car.

Bonuses being $0 for next year means he probably won't be able to do any funny Model Y business anyway....

First, 100k miles is nothing on a honda if its well maintained.  Second, I would guess that a two week rental once a year (even for a big SUV) will probably be mathematically sensible than any new car even a cheapy. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on June 18, 2020, 04:02:01 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on June 18, 2020, 03:33:46 PM

Quote from: couponvan on June 18, 2020, 01:05:41 PM

I'm going to give a plug for the Tesla....pun intended. It's a car that keeps getting "updates" almost monthly.  My husband LOVES to play with that car.  Me - I like things that stay the same, so I am still driving my 2012 Pilot that he bought me without asking when I was still driving a 2005 Honda minivan.  The model Y comes out next year, and I KNOW he wants it.  I do worry when my car gets much over 100K miles though since we drive back and forth from VA to IL pretty regularly to visit family. I should probably look into 2 week rental prices vs the cost of a new car.

Bonuses being $0 for next year means he probably won't be able to do any funny Model Y business anyway....

First, 100k miles is nothing on a honda if its well maintained.  Second, I would guess that a two week rental once a year (even for a big SUV) will probably be mathematically sensible than any new car even a cheapy.

Third, we would have some serious words if my husband bought himself a car without discussion, never mind buying me a car without asking.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: CoffeeR on June 18, 2020, 04:05:47 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 18, 2020, 07:19:20 AM

I've done the MPG vs cost exercise more times than I can even remember.  It's always resulted in math saying to keep what I've got.

In general, the least expensive car to drive is the the one you own (if you are leasing or making payments, you do not own the car). This include most gas guzzlers. The math seldom works out otherwise. Most people are very good at convincing themselves otherwise.

Sigh, I may still get a new-to-me car soon within the next year or two.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 18, 2020, 04:22:52 PM

Quote from: CoffeeR on June 18, 2020, 04:05:47 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 18, 2020, 07:19:20 AM

I've done the MPG vs cost exercise more times than I can even remember.  It's always resulted in math saying to keep what I've got.

In general, the least expensive car to drive is the the one you own (if you are leasing or making payments, you do not own the car). This include most gas guzzlers. The math seldom works out otherwise. Most people are very good at convincing themselves otherwise.

Sigh, I may still get a new-to-me car soon within the next year or two.

Y’know, I think one of the things that separates the millionaires from the broke is car expenses. Those are usually the second biggest expense for a household after housing. Get the housing and transportation expenses locked down and a lot of the rest of this financial stuff just sort of falls out on its own.

Another of my 101 reasons I drive a beat to hell SUV.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 18, 2020, 04:37:15 PM

Quote from: couponvan on June 18, 2020, 01:05:41 PM

I'm going to give a plug for the Tesla....pun intended. It's a car that keeps getting "updates" almost monthly.  My husband LOVES to play with that car.  Me - I like things that stay the same, so I am still driving my 2012 Pilot that he bought me without asking when I was still driving a 2005 Honda minivan.  The model Y comes out next year, and I KNOW he wants it.  I do worry when my car gets much over 100K miles though since we drive back and forth from VA to IL pretty regularly to visit family. I should probably look into 2 week rental prices vs the cost of a new car.

Bonuses being $0 for next year means he probably won't be able to do any funny Model Y business anyway....

I seriously considered a Tesla but just could not get there yet.  The Corolla gets 40 mpg and cost 25k.  We now have 2 cars ready for the kids when they are headed off to college - a 2015 Honda Fit for the 16 y.o. and a 2020 Corolla for my 14 y.o. in the future...  Once those vehicles are out of the house in the next couple years, we can begin to consider a Tesla again...  but there's also that Toyota Supra that caught my eye...  As long as the S&P stays above 3000, I feel OK about a little spending.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 18, 2020, 07:27:35 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 18, 2020, 04:22:52 PM

Quote from: CoffeeR on June 18, 2020, 04:05:47 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 18, 2020, 07:19:20 AM

I've done the MPG vs cost exercise more times than I can even remember.  It's always resulted in math saying to keep what I've got.

In general, the least expensive car to drive is the the one you own (if you are leasing or making payments, you do not own the car). This include most gas guzzlers. The math seldom works out otherwise. Most people are very good at convincing themselves otherwise.

Sigh, I may still get a new-to-me car soon within the next year or two.

Y’know, I think one of the things that separates the millionaires from the broke is car expenses. Those are usually the second biggest expense for a household after housing. Get the housing and transportation expenses locked down and a lot of the rest of this financial stuff just sort of falls out on its own.

Another of my 101 reasons I drive a beat to hell SUV.

Y’know, I think one of the things that separates the millionaires from the broke is a middle class income or better, then car expenses. Those are usually the second biggest expense for a household after housing. Get the housing and transportation expenses locked down and a lot of the rest of this financial stuff just sort of falls out on its own.

Fixed that for you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 18, 2020, 08:56:12 PM

The 2015 Toyota Sequoia I'd hoped to buy week after next in Daytona Beach just sold.  It's been on the lot since April and I guess the time was due.  Now the search begins for another like new one at a good price.  There was another one in Tampa that sold last week.   Only frustrating because I could have bought it Monday, had my vacation for this week not been cancelled by my company.  At least we'll be headed over to Florida for the fouth of July.  Not that there will be fireworks this year.  We will be doing some kayaking in addition to the obligatory house chores.  I'm really pissed about my vacation cancellation.  I'm an essential worker.  Hurricanes, pandemics, floods you name it, I've got to be here.  We have hundreds of day workers whom are not currently on site and are at full salary.  They are taking their vacations unhindered.  They don't even need to use their time off, they travel with a laptop and cell phone.  Wow that's great isn't it?  I have 28 years of perfect attendance, never once have I called in sick.  Instead of that loyalty, I'm doing my best to stir discord covertly.  I guess I'm preparing mentally for the soon to come separation.  Thanks to FU-MONEY.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 18, 2020, 09:10:00 PM

@Bateaux, that old Ford truck will keep going for at least another 10-15 years.   Ours is a 1995... still truckin' along.   I try to avoid riding in it as much as I can, because "work truck" is an understatement.   It's busy tonight hauling patio furniture to our newly launched college grad.  Last week, it hauled sand and gravel for the new driveway concrete.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 18, 2020, 09:26:27 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 18, 2020, 09:10:00 PM

@Bateaux, that old Ford truck will keep going for at least another 10-15 years.   Ours is a 1995... still truckin' along.   I try to avoid riding in it as much as I can, because "work truck" is an understatement.   It's busy tonight hauling patio furniture to our newly launched college grad.  Last week, it hauled sand and gravel for the new driveway concrete.

I plan to keep the F250.  I wanting a bit more luxury when traveling.  It's a gas guzzling SUV and I should do better by the environment.  I however hope to keep the Sequoia when I get one a very long time. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 18, 2020, 09:59:49 PM

I went and walked a mile.  Feel better now.   Time for coffee and bullshit session.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 19, 2020, 05:15:23 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 18, 2020, 08:56:12 PM

The 2015 Toyota Sequoia I'd hoped to buy week after next in Daytona Beach just sold.  It's been on the lot since April and I guess the time was due.  Now the search begins for another like new one at a good price.  There was another one in Tampa that sold last week.   Only frustrating because I could have bought it Monday, had my vacation for this week not been cancelled by my company.  At least we'll be headed over to Florida for the fouth of July.  Not that there will be fireworks this year.  We will be doing some kayaking in addition to the obligatory house chores.  I'm really pissed about my vacation cancellation.  I'm an essential worker.  Hurricanes, pandemics, floods you name it, I've got to be here.  We have hundreds of day workers whom are not currently on site and are at full salary.  They are taking their vacations unhindered.  They don't even need to use their time off, they travel with a laptop and cell phone.  Wow that's great isn't it?  I have 28 years of perfect attendance, never once have I called in sick.  Instead of that loyalty, I'm doing my best to stir discord covertly.  I guess I'm preparing mentally for the soon to come separation.  Thanks to FU-MONEY.

Why don’t you just find what you like online and have it shipped to you? It’ll cost you a few hundred dollars to transport the vehicle. That’s what we did with the last vehicle we purchased and it worked out great.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 19, 2020, 09:03:35 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 18, 2020, 09:10:00 PM

@Bateaux, that old Ford truck will keep going for at least another 10-15 years.   Ours is a 1995... still truckin' along.   I try to avoid riding in it as much as I can, because "work truck" is an understatement.   It's busy tonight hauling patio furniture to our newly launched college grad.  Last week, it hauled sand and gravel for the new driveway concrete.

Our F250 is from 1989. Thankfully we don't use salt on the roads in Oregon and the thing is ugly and gas guzzling but oh boy can it haul crap!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 19, 2020, 01:13:21 PM

It's all good.  Better rested now.  I've got an 84 hour work week facing me and then I'm free for a Florida week. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 19, 2020, 02:01:43 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 19, 2020, 01:13:21 PM

It's all good.  Better rested now.  I've got an 84 hour work week facing me and then I'm free for a Florida week.

Sounds like poor management.  Sounds like the safety guys ought to have a word with them.  Sounds like it's very good for your stash.  Sounds like you will be helping Uncle Sam with his bills.  Don't let them burn you out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 19, 2020, 04:57:40 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 19, 2020, 02:01:43 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 19, 2020, 01:13:21 PM

It's all good.  Better rested now.  I've got an 84 hour work week facing me and then I'm free for a Florida week.

Sounds like poor management.  Sounds like the safety guys ought to have a word with them.  Sounds like it's very good for your stash.  Sounds like you will be helping Uncle Sam with his bills.  Don't let them burn you out.

I'm on cruise control.   My wife says she wants to work till September 2021, she gets a small retirment bonus if she makes it there.  I support whatever she chooses.  Me i plan plan to be hiking the AT by March 1st.   Maybe a little earlier. I may have to work till January 31 to claim my 2021 vacation time.  Should have 6 to 8 weeks to use. Just have to figure out health insurance.  Probably some huge changes coming in health care in general.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on June 20, 2020, 07:27:03 PM

Well, I'm up $766K for the year. $1MM in the last twelve months. Wow! Nothing in this year even makes sense anymore.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on June 21, 2020, 07:29:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 19, 2020, 09:03:35 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 18, 2020, 09:10:00 PM

@Bateaux, that old Ford truck will keep going for at least another 10-15 years.   Ours is a 1995... still truckin' along.   I try to avoid riding in it as much as I can, because "work truck" is an understatement.   It's busy tonight hauling patio furniture to our newly launched college grad.  Last week, it hauled sand and gravel for the new driveway concrete.

Our F250 is from 1989. Thankfully we don't use salt on the roads in Oregon and the thing is ugly and gas guzzling but oh boy can it haul crap!

Our lottery friends just sold a 2017 with 6k miles on it for $35,000....it was loaded, but the wife had trouble getting into it....so they are getting a new shorter Tundra. I almost sent you the link, but it did sell quick.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 21, 2020, 10:32:07 PM

Quote from: couponvan on June 21, 2020, 07:29:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 19, 2020, 09:03:35 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 18, 2020, 09:10:00 PM

@Bateaux, that old Ford truck will keep going for at least another 10-15 years.   Ours is a 1995... still truckin' along.   I try to avoid riding in it as much as I can, because "work truck" is an understatement.   It's busy tonight hauling patio furniture to our newly launched college grad.  Last week, it hauled sand and gravel for the new driveway concrete.

Our F250 is from 1989. Thankfully we don't use salt on the roads in Oregon and the thing is ugly and gas guzzling but oh boy can it haul crap!

Our lottery friends just sold a 2017 with 6k miles on it for $35,000....it was loaded, but the wife had trouble getting into it....so they are getting a new shorter Tundra. I almost sent you the link, but it did sell quick.

I appreciate that thought.  You know my rant and moodiness has little to do witht he actual vehicle.   It's more about the internal struggle of pulling the plug for freedom or not.  Had I retired I could have easily visited Daytona,  a two hour or so ride from our Florida home.   Instead, I'm in Louisiana still working .  Catch 22.  Right now I'm watching people bicycle and kayak all over Florida on Youtube.  I'll be doing that for a week in a week.   I need a tribe to hang out with though.  Mentally trying to transition away from work to play fulltime.   Thanks to the tribe here I'm getting there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 22, 2020, 10:04:26 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on June 20, 2020, 07:27:03 PM

Well, I'm up $766K for the year. $1MM in the last twelve months. Wow! Nothing in this year even makes sense anymore.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02

Geez.. Are your investing strategies even legal?...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 22, 2020, 01:11:29 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 21, 2020, 10:32:07 PM

Right now I'm watching people bicycle and kayak all over Florida on Youtube.  I'll be doing that for a week in a week.   

So you're watching the main streets of Miami after a rain storm and at high tide?  (yuk, yuk)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 22, 2020, 01:26:25 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 22, 2020, 01:11:29 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 21, 2020, 10:32:07 PM

Right now I'm watching people bicycle and kayak all over Florida on Youtube.  I'll be doing that for a week in a week.   

So you're watching the main streets of Miami after a rain storm and at high tide?  (yuk, yuk)

We're on the Nature Coast of Florida.   Small towns and still a rural lifestyle.  Tampa and Orlando are about 70 miles away to the south and southeast.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 22, 2020, 01:27:45 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 22, 2020, 10:04:26 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on June 20, 2020, 07:27:03 PM

Well, I'm up $766K for the year. $1MM in the last twelve months. Wow! Nothing in this year even makes sense anymore.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02

Geez.. Are your investing strategies even legal?...:)

He is the rising star.  Knew he'd blow right past me a year ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 22, 2020, 01:41:56 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 22, 2020, 01:27:45 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 22, 2020, 10:04:26 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on June 20, 2020, 07:27:03 PM

Well, I'm up $766K for the year. $1MM in the last twelve months. Wow! Nothing in this year even makes sense anymore.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02

Geez.. Are your investing strategies even legal?...:)

He is the rising star.  Knew he'd blow right past me a year ago.

I'd say.. just being positive for the year would be nice..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on June 22, 2020, 05:35:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 22, 2020, 01:41:56 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 22, 2020, 01:27:45 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 22, 2020, 10:04:26 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on June 20, 2020, 07:27:03 PM

Well, I'm up $766K for the year. $1MM in the last twelve months. Wow! Nothing in this year even makes sense anymore.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02

Geez.. Are your investing strategies even legal?...:)

He is the rising star.  Knew he'd blow right past me a year ago.

I'd say.. just being positive for the year would be nice..:)

He didn't time the market  😶

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 22, 2020, 08:08:52 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 22, 2020, 05:35:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 22, 2020, 01:41:56 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 22, 2020, 01:27:45 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 22, 2020, 10:04:26 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on June 20, 2020, 07:27:03 PM

Well, I'm up $766K for the year. $1MM in the last twelve months. Wow! Nothing in this year even makes sense anymore.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02

Geez.. Are your investing strategies even legal?...:)

He is the rising star.  Knew he'd blow right past me a year ago.

I'd say.. just being positive for the year would be nice..:)

He didn't time the market  😶

He's been doing this.  He's shared the rise along the way.   Whatever he's doing, it's beyond my level of understanding.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 23, 2020, 04:47:00 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 22, 2020, 08:08:52 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on June 22, 2020, 05:35:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 22, 2020, 01:41:56 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 22, 2020, 01:27:45 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 22, 2020, 10:04:26 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on June 20, 2020, 07:27:03 PM

Well, I'm up $766K for the year. $1MM in the last twelve months. Wow! Nothing in this year even makes sense anymore.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02

Geez.. Are your investing strategies even legal?...:)

He is the rising star.  Knew he'd blow right past me a year ago.

I'd say.. just being positive for the year would be nice..:)

He didn't time the market  😶

He's been doing this.  He's shared the rise along the way.   Whatever he's doing, it's beyond my level of understanding.

Yeah , sharing what your doing to get those kind of increases /returns would be great for the rest of us!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 23, 2020, 01:24:09 PM

Another mid year performance review survived. Boss is very happy. Certainly mo severance coming my way.

Long term objectives for growth of the business in my region were discussed and agreed upon.

Lies, lies and more lies.

I’ll be off to the Confessional tonight (if I was catholic).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on June 23, 2020, 02:13:18 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on June 23, 2020, 04:47:00 AM

Yeah , sharing what your doing to get those kind of increases /returns would be great for the rest of us!

I think it boils down to two factors:
1. I spend very little and save and invest over 95% of my income, and have done this for about eight years.
2. Historically, I've invested my paycheck into index funds alone. However, I also get a lot of company stock from my employer, and that stock has significantly outperformed the market. Starting last year, I was concerned that I owned too much employer stock so I diversified that stock into some other similar stocks that I am familiar with, which also outperformed the market. For privacy reasons, I am not going to disclose the names of any of these companies.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 23, 2020, 03:04:00 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on June 23, 2020, 02:13:18 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on June 23, 2020, 04:47:00 AM

Yeah , sharing what your doing to get those kind of increases /returns would be great for the rest of us!

I think it boils down to two factors:
1. I spend very little and save and invest over 95% of my income, and have done this for about eight years.
2. Historically, I've invested my paycheck into index funds alone. However, I also get a lot of company stock from my employer, and that stock has significantly outperformed the market. Starting last year, I was concerned that I owned too much employer stock so I diversified that stock into some other similar stocks that I am familiar with, which also outperformed the market. For privacy reasons, I am not going to disclose the names of any of these companies.

Well, the S&P500 has returned -3.08% YTD, so you must be saving 95% of a really high income ($800k after tax?) and/or getting a lot of returns from individual stocks.  I seem to recall that you have TSLA which has gone from 443 to 1002 (over 100% return), so I have a feeling that is a big factor...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on June 23, 2020, 04:55:41 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 23, 2020, 03:04:00 PM

Well, the S&P500 has returned -3.08% YTD, so you must be saving 95% of a really high income ($800k after tax?) and/or getting a lot of returns from individual stocks.  I seem to recall that you have TSLA which has gone from 443 to 1002 (over 100% return), so I have a feeling that is a big factor...

Oh, one thing I did which helped was that I liquidated all of my retirement accounts into cash on 02/24/2020 and then bought back on 05/06/2020.

I had been closely following news related to the virus since January 2020. I was freaking out over the week of 2/22 because that was when the virus first established a significant foothold in a western country (Italy), but the US stock market was at an all-time high. Given that the experts agreed that stopping this virus was like stopping the wind, the market being at an all-time high simply did not make logical sense to me. I felt that it was scientifically inevitable that the virus would spread to the rest of Europe and the USA. I decided to sell everything at the first sign that the stock market was reacting to the virus. I should have sold on 2/21 but I was indecisive and sold on 2/24 instead, after the market had dropped a bit. I totally missed the bottom by the time I bought back in on 5/6, but I think I did OK.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 23, 2020, 07:37:12 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on June 23, 2020, 04:55:41 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 23, 2020, 03:04:00 PM

Well, the S&P500 has returned -3.08% YTD, so you must be saving 95% of a really high income ($800k after tax?) and/or getting a lot of returns from individual stocks.  I seem to recall that you have TSLA which has gone from 443 to 1002 (over 100% return), so I have a feeling that is a big factor...

Oh, one thing I did which helped was that I liquidated all of my retirement accounts into cash on 02/24/2020 and then bought back on 05/06/2020.

I had been closely following news related to the virus since January 2020. I was freaking out over the week of 2/22 because that was when the virus first established a significant foothold in a western country (Italy), but the US stock market was at an all-time high. Given that the experts agreed that stopping this virus was like stopping the wind, the market being at an all-time high simply did not make logical sense to me. I felt that it was scientifically inevitable that the virus would spread to the rest of Europe and the USA. I decided to sell everything at the first sign that the stock market was reacting to the virus. I should have sold on 2/21 but I was indecisive and sold on 2/24 instead, after the market had dropped a bit. I totally missed the bottom by the time I bought back in on 5/6, but I think I did OK.

That’s an awfully useful detail!  I did a similar thing during the GFC (sold my house in 2007 and 401k to cash in 2008).  Bought back in a bit early, kept my job and kept investing, and bought a house at a nice discount in 2009.  Probably why I’m in the ‘and beyond’ club.  Certainly not just because I have a decent savings rate.  Savings may give you something to invest, but investment returns are exponential (compounded).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on June 23, 2020, 07:50:26 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 23, 2020, 07:37:12 PM

That’s an awfully useful detail!  I did a similar thing during the GFC (sold my house in 2007 and 401k to cash in 2008).  Bought back in a bit early, kept my job and kept investing, and bought a house at a nice discount in 2009.  Probably why I’m in the ‘and beyond’ club.  Certainly not just because I have a decent savings rate.  Savings may give you something to invest, but investment returns are exponential (compounded).

The way I see it, any returns I make from stock market bets are multiplicative in nature. The amount of money I can earn from making such bets is directly proportional to the amount of money I was able to save by saving obsessively for almost a decade. So I think that the savings part is the linchpin to all of my success. Without that money that I saved, I couldn't earn anything on the stock market in the first place.

Another important factor is being financially independent and how that relates to my risk tolerance. Once I became financially independent, I started making some "risky" bets on the stock market like trying to time the market for COVID-19 or investing in individual stocks that I believe in. But I always made sure that I could afford to lose any of these bets and still remain financially independent. The upside is that I can make a ton of money from riskier stock market bets. The downside is that I'll still be financially independent anyway. Seems like a lot of upside and not much downside!

One thing that also helps a ton for me is that I have hundreds of thousands of dollars of unrealized capital gains that have been accumulating for years. If I lose money on the stock market, I can realize some of those gains and take a huge tax write-off. Also, despite being comfortably financially independent, I am still employed full-time in my high income job and have no plans to quit for the foreseeable future. Fresh money that I don't really need continues to pour in every month.

Lose a few hundred thousand dollars on the stock market? So what, I'm still financially independent. I'll take an 18% tax write-off on the loss and make the rest back from employment income in less than a year. So it's even less risk than you'd think. Besides, I'm still in my 20s, so now's the time to take some risks, right? That being said, I put a huge amount of thought and research into my investment choices, so don't think that I am taking any of this lightly.

Kind of reminds me of this old topic from years ago:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/almost-logical-to-gamble-$50-000-on-red/ (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/almost-logical-to-gamble-$50-000-on-red/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on June 24, 2020, 10:44:48 AM

For those in this thread who are ambitiously pushing through "and beyond", have you seriously thought about how to spend (enjoy) the "and beyond" money that you have or will have?

At 56, I sometime felt that I should have done something when I was young and not worried about saving money too much. I am sue that, beyond 65, there will be many things that I may not be able to do (and wish I could or did).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 24, 2020, 11:47:56 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 24, 2020, 10:44:48 AM

For those in this thread who are ambitiously pushing through "and beyond", have you seriously thought about how to spend (enjoy) the "and beyond" money that you have or will have?

At 56, I sometime felt that I should have done something when I was young and not worried about saving money too much. I am sue that, beyond 65, there will be many things that I may not be able to do (and wish I could or did).

Hmm - my household is firmly in the "beyond" category but we sure don't behave like typical people in this bracket:

• We don't want multiple homes or fancy cars.
• We don't want a boat
• We don't particularly enjoy travel - a little bit is ok but not more more than a few days at the most.
• We don't really eat out a lot.
• My hobbies are relatively inexpensive.

On the other hand,

• However, when I do travel internationally, I splurge on business class.
• I do buy an iPhone every couple of years
• We do like living near New York City, so living expenses are a bit higher but we can easily afford the higher property taxes..

As I mentioned recently in this topic, I'm increasingly realizing that giving money strategically seems to make me happier than buying stuff.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 24, 2020, 02:06:45 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 24, 2020, 10:44:48 AM

For those in this thread who are ambitiously pushing through "and beyond", have you seriously thought about how to spend (enjoy) the "and beyond" money that you have or will have?

At 56, I sometime felt that I should have done something when I was young and not worried about saving money too much. I am sue that, beyond 65, there will be many things that I may not be able to do (and wish I could or did).

Unlike others here we seem to have no problem spending it ;-)  I pushed to FI (based on 4% and a medium budget) as quick as I could, and then as I made more I either put it into other buckets (like fully funding 529s, DAFs, etc) and/or increased our SOL to match a 4% SWR.  This way I fully feel I'm always avail to RE whenever I wish (I'm working much reduced hours anyway) without denying myself anything more than prudence and market history suggests.  (And I never feel I'm spending too much at 4% b/c cutting wouldn't be that much of a burden at this point if it ever came to that)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 24, 2020, 03:31:34 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 24, 2020, 11:47:56 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 24, 2020, 10:44:48 AM

For those in this thread who are ambitiously pushing through "and beyond", have you seriously thought about how to spend (enjoy) the "and beyond" money that you have or will have?

At 56, I sometime felt that I should have done something when I was young and not worried about saving money too much. I am sue that, beyond 65, there will be many things that I may not be able to do (and wish I could or did).

Hmm - my household is firmly in the "beyond" category but we sure don't behave like typical people in this bracket:

• We don't want multiple homes or fancy cars.
• We don't want a boat
• We don't particularly enjoy travel - a little bit is ok but not more more than a few days at the most.
• We don't really eat out a lot.
• My hobbies are relatively inexpensive.

On the other hand,

• However, when I do travel internationally, I splurge on business class.
• I do buy an iPhone every couple of years
• We do like living near New York City, so living expenses are a bit higher but we can easily afford the higher property taxes..

As I mentioned recently in this topic, I'm increasingly realizing that giving money strategically seems to make me happier than buying stuff.

same , except we do have a boat and have 4 kids that somehow were always paying something out for!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 24, 2020, 04:41:57 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 24, 2020, 10:44:48 AM

For those in this thread who are ambitiously pushing through "and beyond", have you seriously thought about how to spend (enjoy) the "and beyond" money that you have or will have?

At 56, I sometime felt that I should have done something when I was young and not worried about saving money too much. I am sue that, beyond 65, there will be many things that I may not be able to do (and wish I could or did).

The goal is to purchase freedom for my children, my children’s children, and so on. See Niki’s cogent observation below. That’s part of the reason I don’t have a number; there’s really no point.

There isn’t a whole lot I’m yearning to do that costs all that much. A ski chalet would be nice though. :-p

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 24, 2020, 05:43:08 PM

Just calculated the amount of paid time off and vacation time I'll have including the remaining 2020 and 2021 years.  512 hours total.  Debating if that's enough freedom to stretch out 2021 or just burn it all between now and early next year.  With my schedule, I can use 24 hours of vacation time for a week off once a month.  It's like being 1/4th retired.  This is a possible strategy if 2021 is as screwed up as 2020. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 24, 2020, 07:05:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 24, 2020, 05:43:08 PM

Just calculated the amount of paid time off and vacation time I'll have including the remaining 2020 and 2021 years.  512 hours total.  Debating if that's enough freedom to stretch out 2021 or just burn it all between now and early next year.  With my schedule, I can use 24 hours of vacation time for a week off once a month.  It's like being 1/4th retired.  This is a possible strategy if 2021 is as screwed up as 2020.

I’m in a feisty mood so I’ll ask: so what’s keeping you from pulling the plug?  Do you not wish to retire? That’s really a perfectly good choice if working at what you do is what makes you happy. And it’s a reason I personally understand: I happen to like my job. The siren song of more time with family or doing something different is tempting, but I suspect I’d be happy to continue working as well.

I’m also curious as whether you think having “ a number” is helping or hurting? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 24, 2020, 08:43:22 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 24, 2020, 07:05:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 24, 2020, 05:43:08 PM

Just calculated the amount of paid time off and vacation time I'll have including the remaining 2020 and 2021 years.  512 hours total.  Debating if that's enough freedom to stretch out 2021 or just burn it all between now and early next year.  With my schedule, I can use 24 hours of vacation time for a week off once a month.  It's like being 1/4th retired.  This is a possible strategy if 2021 is as screwed up as 2020.

I’m in a feisty mood so I’ll ask: so what’s keeping you from pulling the plug?  Do you not wish to retire? That’s really a perfectly good choice if working at what you do is what makes you happy. And it’s a reason I personally understand: I happen to like my job. The siren song of more time with family or doing something different is tempting, but I suspect I’d be happy to continue working as well.

I’m also curious as whether you think having “ a number” is helping or hurting?

I set a number at 2.5 million, not including real estate and other crap.  This morning the number had reached 2.425 most would have goosebumps of joy.  I had goosebumps of fear!   Typical OMY syndrome.  Hell the goal was 1.5 million once.  Poverty level, even here in the south.  Besides, after 28 years with the same company what could be more comfortable than going to work?  They really don't want me to leave.  We all get along well these days.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on June 24, 2020, 09:14:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 24, 2020, 08:43:22 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 24, 2020, 07:05:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 24, 2020, 05:43:08 PM

Just calculated the amount of paid time off and vacation time I'll have including the remaining 2020 and 2021 years.  512 hours total.  Debating if that's enough freedom to stretch out 2021 or just burn it all between now and early next year.  With my schedule, I can use 24 hours of vacation time for a week off once a month.  It's like being 1/4th retired.  This is a possible strategy if 2021 is as screwed up as 2020.

I’m in a feisty mood so I’ll ask: so what’s keeping you from pulling the plug?  Do you not wish to retire? That’s really a perfectly good choice if working at what you do is what makes you happy. And it’s a reason I personally understand: I happen to like my job. The siren song of more time with family or doing something different is tempting, but I suspect I’d be happy to continue working as well.

I’m also curious as whether you think having “ a number” is helping or hurting?

I set a number at 2.5 million, not including real estate and other crap.  This morning the number had reached 2.425 most would have goosebumps of joy.  I had goosebumps of fear!   Typical OMY syndrome.  Hell the goal was 1.5 million once.  Poverty level, even here in the south.  Besides, after 28 years with the same company what could be more comfortable than going to work?  They really don't want me to leave.  We all get along well these days.

If I was employed I would stick around & keep getting paid until there is an end to C-19 in sight.  There's nowhere to go and nothing to do & we have no idea where the economy is headed.  But on the other hand, if you're looking forward to just chilling out at home with nothing to do while you just mentally & physically unwind from the pressures of your career now might be the perfect time.


Flip a coin if you need to. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 25, 2020, 04:32:44 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 24, 2020, 08:43:22 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 24, 2020, 07:05:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 24, 2020, 05:43:08 PM

Just calculated the amount of paid time off and vacation time I'll have including the remaining 2020 and 2021 years.  512 hours total.  Debating if that's enough freedom to stretch out 2021 or just burn it all between now and early next year.  With my schedule, I can use 24 hours of vacation time for a week off once a month.  It's like being 1/4th retired.  This is a possible strategy if 2021 is as screwed up as 2020.

I’m in a feisty mood so I’ll ask: so what’s keeping you from pulling the plug?  Do you not wish to retire? That’s really a perfectly good choice if working at what you do is what makes you happy. And it’s a reason I personally understand: I happen to like my job. The siren song of more time with family or doing something different is tempting, but I suspect I’d be happy to continue working as well.

I’m also curious as whether you think having “ a number” is helping or hurting?

I set a number at 2.5 million, not including real estate and other crap.  This morning the number had reached 2.425 most would have goosebumps of joy.  I had goosebumps of fear!   Typical OMY syndrome.  Hell the goal was 1.5 million once.  Poverty level, even here in the south.  Besides, after 28 years with the same company what could be more comfortable than going to work?  They really don't want me to leave.  We all get along well these days.

If you’re happy, then why are you pushing yourself to retire?

We tend to idealize this idea of leaving work and living a life of relative leisure or hobbies or what have you. Problem is that people who are driven to meet those economic goals that allow them to retire early or even retire at all are often happiest and most fulfilled when they’re working. So why fix something that ain’t broke?

Isn’t the essence of being FI expanding our personal freedom from being in a position of economic strength?

Oh and I agree. $2.5 mil is a paupers stash in LA. I hope you’ve picked out the dumpsters you’ll be diving with that pittance. :-p

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on June 25, 2020, 06:56:57 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 24, 2020, 07:05:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 24, 2020, 05:43:08 PM

Just calculated the amount of paid time off and vacation time I'll have including the remaining 2020 and 2021 years.  512 hours total.  Debating if that's enough freedom to stretch out 2021 or just burn it all between now and early next year.  With my schedule, I can use 24 hours of vacation time for a week off once a month.  It's like being 1/4th retired.  This is a possible strategy if 2021 is as screwed up as 2020.

I’m in a feisty mood so I’ll ask: so what’s keeping you from pulling the plug?  Do you not wish to retire? That’s really a perfectly good choice if working at what you do is what makes you happy. And it’s a reason I personally understand: I happen to like my job. The siren song of more time with family or doing something different is tempting, but I suspect I’d be happy to continue working as well.

I’m also curious as whether you think having “ a number” is helping or hurting?

It is difficult to make a decision to retire, especially if that is a one-way ticket.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 25, 2020, 06:32:26 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 25, 2020, 06:56:57 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 24, 2020, 07:05:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 24, 2020, 05:43:08 PM

Just calculated the amount of paid time off and vacation time I'll have including the remaining 2020 and 2021 years.  512 hours total.  Debating if that's enough freedom to stretch out 2021 or just burn it all between now and early next year.  With my schedule, I can use 24 hours of vacation time for a week off once a month.  It's like being 1/4th retired.  This is a possible strategy if 2021 is as screwed up as 2020.

I’m in a feisty mood so I’ll ask: so what’s keeping you from pulling the plug?  Do you not wish to retire? That’s really a perfectly good choice if working at what you do is what makes you happy. And it’s a reason I personally understand: I happen to like my job. The siren song of more time with family or doing something different is tempting, but I suspect I’d be happy to continue working as well.

I’m also curious as whether you think having “ a number” is helping or hurting?

It is difficult to make a decision to retire, especially if that is a one-way ticket.

It is a one way ticket.  Something I watched has helped move me along.  It's a very well done documentary of the Pacific Crest Trail.

               https://www.youtube.com/c/ElinaOsborne                       (https://www.youtube.com/c/ElinaOsborne)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 26, 2020, 04:57:59 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 25, 2020, 06:32:26 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 25, 2020, 06:56:57 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 24, 2020, 07:05:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 24, 2020, 05:43:08 PM

Just calculated the amount of paid time off and vacation time I'll have including the remaining 2020 and 2021 years.  512 hours total.  Debating if that's enough freedom to stretch out 2021 or just burn it all between now and early next year.  With my schedule, I can use 24 hours of vacation time for a week off once a month.  It's like being 1/4th retired.  This is a possible strategy if 2021 is as screwed up as 2020.

I’m in a feisty mood so I’ll ask: so what’s keeping you from pulling the plug?  Do you not wish to retire? That’s really a perfectly good choice if working at what you do is what makes you happy. And it’s a reason I personally understand: I happen to like my job. The siren song of more time with family or doing something different is tempting, but I suspect I’d be happy to continue working as well.

I’m also curious as whether you think having “ a number” is helping or hurting?

It is difficult to make a decision to retire, especially if that is a one-way ticket.

It is a one way ticket.  Something I watched has helped move me along.  It's a very well done documentary of the Pacific Crest Trail.

               https://www.youtube.com/c/ElinaOsborne                       (https://www.youtube.com/c/ElinaOsborne)

Being Fire'd after watching that video if I had good knees I'd be gone! :-) Love it! I walk alot on good days and am going to try and go on a 4 day hike with my oldest son this fall but something a little easy and closer to home because I dont want to get on a plane right now because of my knees etc..

As you know , no one can tell you what to do and you have put yourself in a great position so when the time is right you'll just  do it and I doubt you will ever look back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 26, 2020, 12:23:25 PM

There was a time, maybe 10 years ago that I was obsessing about hiking the PCT.

I would make my DW do 35-40km day hikes back home in Australia to see what it was like to walk so far. I tell you what, it makes you hungry! We also searched out overnight hikes for long weekends. But that had always been a part of my life.

I bought all the microlight gear and read loads of PCT trail journals. I have 4 ultra light tents. Haha.

I even had a spreadsheet with a full plan for breaks from trail and resupply points,

But at the time I just couldn’t afford to stop work. My career was at a pivotal point and I wanted to capitalise.

10 years on and the motivation is not so strong. I am certainly no longer in the shape to hike the PCT. I have really let myself go these past years.

DW and I do plan to walk the Camino, however, once we FIRE, which will be soon. A long walk of a very different type, and much shorter of course.

If that goes well, and I recover good conditioning, then maybe the drive to be in the woods for 4 months might return.

Watching that video of the PCT really rammed home to me how fleeting youth is, and I really need to find a way to accept that what we have saved is “enough” so I can pursue such epic adventures before there is no more time left.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 26, 2020, 01:00:01 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on June 26, 2020, 12:23:25 PM

There was a time, maybe 10 years ago that I was obsessing about hiking the PCT.

I would make my DW do 35-40km day hikes back home in Australia to see what it was like to walk so far. I tell you what, it makes you hungry! We also searched out overnight hikes for long weekends. But that had always been a part of my life.

I bought all the microlight gear and read loads of PCT trail journals. I have 4 ultra light tents. Haha.

I even had a spreadsheet with a full plan for breaks from trail and resupply points,

But at the time I just couldn’t afford to stop work. My career was at a pivotal point and I wanted to capitalise.

10 years on and the motivation is not so strong. I am certainly no longer in the shape to hike the PCT. I have really let myself go these past years.

DW and I do plan to walk the Camino, however, once we FIRE, which will be soon. A long walk of a very different type, and much shorter of course.

If that goes well, and I recover good conditioning, then maybe the drive to be in the woods for 4 months might return.

Watching that video of the PCT really rammed home to me how fleeting youth is, and I really need to find a way to accept that what we have saved is “enough” so I can pursue such epic adventures before there is no more time left.

I would love to hike the Camino with my wife.  She is having knee replacement next month.  She's tough, a former marathoner and Ironman.  Hopefully once the world is normal again the Camino is an option for her.  I plan to do a two week section of the AT in October, burning away some of that 512 hours of time I'll lhave off. I'm mentally back to attempt FIRE early next year.  Get back in shape and do the PCT 2022 with me.  I'm a slow climber coming from the Louisiana swamps.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 26, 2020, 02:58:42 PM

I love this enthusiasm.  It's rubbing off.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on June 26, 2020, 06:14:55 PM

I want to do the Camino, too!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Ozlady on June 26, 2020, 08:36:15 PM

Quote from: lhamo on June 26, 2020, 06:14:55 PM

I want to do the Camino, too!

Me too!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 26, 2020, 08:47:18 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 25, 2020, 06:32:26 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 25, 2020, 06:56:57 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 24, 2020, 07:05:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 24, 2020, 05:43:08 PM

Just calculated the amount of paid time off and vacation time I'll have including the remaining 2020 and 2021 years.  512 hours total.  Debating if that's enough freedom to stretch out 2021 or just burn it all between now and early next year.  With my schedule, I can use 24 hours of vacation time for a week off once a month.  It's like being 1/4th retired.  This is a possible strategy if 2021 is as screwed up as 2020.

I’m in a feisty mood so I’ll ask: so what’s keeping you from pulling the plug?  Do you not wish to retire? That’s really a perfectly good choice if working at what you do is what makes you happy. And it’s a reason I personally understand: I happen to like my job. The siren song of more time with family or doing something different is tempting, but I suspect I’d be happy to continue working as well.

I’m also curious as whether you think having “ a number” is helping or hurting?

It is difficult to make a decision to retire, especially if that is a one-way ticket.

It is a one way ticket.  Something I watched has helped move me along.  It's a very well done documentary of the Pacific Crest Trail.

               https://www.youtube.com/c/ElinaOsborne                       (https://www.youtube.com/c/ElinaOsborne)

Thats a cool vid. Looks like a fun time. I wonder if there is something analogous for us bikers?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on June 26, 2020, 09:36:08 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 26, 2020, 08:47:18 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 25, 2020, 06:32:26 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 25, 2020, 06:56:57 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 24, 2020, 07:05:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 24, 2020, 05:43:08 PM

Just calculated the amount of paid time off and vacation time I'll have including the remaining 2020 and 2021 years.  512 hours total.  Debating if that's enough freedom to stretch out 2021 or just burn it all between now and early next year.  With my schedule, I can use 24 hours of vacation time for a week off once a month.  It's like being 1/4th retired.  This is a possible strategy if 2021 is as screwed up as 2020.

I’m in a feisty mood so I’ll ask: so what’s keeping you from pulling the plug?  Do you not wish to retire? That’s really a perfectly good choice if working at what you do is what makes you happy. And it’s a reason I personally understand: I happen to like my job. The siren song of more time with family or doing something different is tempting, but I suspect I’d be happy to continue working as well.

I’m also curious as whether you think having “ a number” is helping or hurting?

It is difficult to make a decision to retire, especially if that is a one-way ticket.

It is a one way ticket.  Something I watched has helped move me along.  It's a very well done documentary of the Pacific Crest Trail.

               https://www.youtube.com/c/ElinaOsborne                       (https://www.youtube.com/c/ElinaOsborne)

Thats a cool vid. Looks like a fun time. I wonder if there is something analogous for us bikers?

Yes, in fact there is a biker trail that runs parallel to it.  I've never been but that's on the list for when I FIRE and the kids are older. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 26, 2020, 09:52:52 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 26, 2020, 01:00:01 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on June 26, 2020, 12:23:25 PM

There was a time, maybe 10 years ago that I was obsessing about hiking the PCT.

I would make my DW do 35-40km day hikes back home in Australia to see what it was like to walk so far. I tell you what, it makes you hungry! We also searched out overnight hikes for long weekends. But that had always been a part of my life.

I bought all the microlight gear and read loads of PCT trail journals. I have 4 ultra light tents. Haha.

I even had a spreadsheet with a full plan for breaks from trail and resupply points,

But at the time I just couldn’t afford to stop work. My career was at a pivotal point and I wanted to capitalise.

10 years on and the motivation is not so strong. I am certainly no longer in the shape to hike the PCT. I have really let myself go these past years.

DW and I do plan to walk the Camino, however, once we FIRE, which will be soon. A long walk of a very different type, and much shorter of course.

If that goes well, and I recover good conditioning, then maybe the drive to be in the woods for 4 months might return.

Watching that video of the PCT really rammed home to me how fleeting youth is, and I really need to find a way to accept that what we have saved is “enough” so I can pursue such epic adventures before there is no more time left.

I would love to hike the Camino with my wife.  She is having knee replacement next month.  She's tough, a former marathoner and Ironman.  Hopefully once the world is normal again the Camino is an option for her.  I plan to do a two week section of the AT in October, burning away some of that 512 hours of time I'll lhave off. I'm mentally back to attempt FIRE early next year.  Get back in shape and do the PCT 2022 with me.  I'm a slow climber coming from the Louisiana swamps.

I wouldn’t be waiting on me to get fit to chase your dreams.

And neither of us are to be relied upon with our FIRE plans as we were both class of 2019 failures, now likely class of 2020 failures and likely to make promises for 3rd time lucky in 2021.

This week sees my DW quitting her job this year, semi- repatriating in December when I was meant to FIRE. For 2021 she would share her time between Sydney amd Dubai. She would keep some casual PT work in both cities and generally be more available to help her parents back home. Meanwhile I’ll prob keep chipping away with the savings till June or potentially even December next year, and will take my leave in Australia so DW and I aren’t apart too much.... I built a spreadsheet calendar  amd we think it could be a good compromise haha........ but the plans change weekly so who knows.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 27, 2020, 06:08:31 AM

Quote from: lhamo on June 26, 2020, 06:14:55 PM

I want to do the Camino, too!

You and Bateaux have been around long enough to remember that ARS and Ali did this right after they hit FIRE and before they had their three kids. In fact, Ali was pregnant with thrir first when they made their pilgrimage. What a badass! Shirley MacLaine also did it and wrote a book about it. I have no idea if it's any good, but I found a copy for a buck at a library book sale. One day I might get around to actually reading it. It's probably worth a look.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on June 27, 2020, 06:32:56 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 26, 2020, 08:47:18 PM

Thats a cool vid. Looks like a fun time. I wonder if there is something analogous for us bikers?

Quote from: LWYRUP on June 26, 2020, 09:36:08 PM

Yes, in fact there is a biker trail that runs parallel to it.  I've never been but that's on the list for when I FIRE and the kids are older.

Oh that's bad news.  Like really, really bad news.  Like that might make it on my to do list bad news.   Thanks for the tip.  (I think.)   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on June 27, 2020, 07:41:48 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 27, 2020, 06:32:56 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on June 26, 2020, 08:47:18 PM

Thats a cool vid. Looks like a fun time. I wonder if there is something analogous for us bikers?

Quote from: LWYRUP on June 26, 2020, 09:36:08 PM

Yes, in fact there is a biker trail that runs parallel to it.  I've never been but that's on the list for when I FIRE and the kids are older.

Oh that's bad news.  Like really, really bad news.  Like that might make it on my to do list bad news.   Thanks for the tip.  (I think.)

I'd like to do the motorcycle version.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on June 27, 2020, 09:00:38 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 27, 2020, 06:08:31 AM

Quote from: lhamo on June 26, 2020, 06:14:55 PM

I want to do the Camino, too!

You and Bateaux have been around long enough to remember that ARS and Ali did this right after they hit FIRE and before they had their three kids. In fact, Ali was pregnant with thrir first when they made their pilgrimage. What a badass! Shirley MacLaine also did it and wrote a book about it. I have no idea if it's any good, but I found a copy for a buck at a library book sale. One day I might get around to actually reading it. It's probably worth a look.

This will be on my list. One of my feet seems to give me some problem these days and the doctor could not find what is wrong with it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 30, 2020, 01:56:11 PM

I’ve done some inn to inn hiking already, El Camino will be on my post RE list.  Likely the extended version as well.  (Starting farther East in Europe TBD at this time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on June 30, 2020, 05:37:59 PM

I'm taking the week off.  Finishing some projects around the house and starting on a new big one.  If this is the FIRE life, I might be able to get used to it...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on July 01, 2020, 09:27:21 PM

Well, 2020 is officially halfway over. Up $927K for the year! What will happen in the second half?

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 02, 2020, 06:51:44 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on June 30, 2020, 05:37:59 PM

I'm taking the week off.  Finishing some projects around the house and starting on a new big one.  If this is the FIRE life, I might be able to get used to it...

Thats pretty much the story of my fire'd life!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 02, 2020, 08:39:12 AM

I am actually studying post pandemic travel. First stop is Israel. Life is short, choose some interesting places to go first.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 02, 2020, 11:33:29 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 02, 2020, 08:39:12 AM

I am actually studying post pandemic travel. First stop is Israel. Life is short, choose some interesting places to go first.

Good choice. I liked Haifa and just walking in the old town of Jerusalem was great.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 02, 2020, 11:55:42 AM

3150 has been resistance on the S&P and were right there yet again. Shaving a little.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 02, 2020, 01:02:35 PM

Sigh.... this is embarrassing....

I’m not going to FIRE. Not now.

Work is offering me a promotion and I’m going to take it.

I am a failure as a moustachian. After 7 years of dreaming of FIRE, and saving my way to the very cusp, I am shelving the plans for now.

The job is back in Australia, and DW and I wanted to move home. It should be an ok job too. Maybe better than ok.

I just don’t quite feel 100% comfortable with my stash. It’s not the potential future returns that bother me. I am pretty optimistic by nature. It’s pure greed. I want to spend a lot of $$$. I add up all I want to do and a little extra froth on the stash makes it more probable we’ll be able to do it all more worry free. I also want to be able to financially help my family freely without worry about my own financial well being.

I figure the new job will be interesting enough for a few years. If We can add 20% on top of our current stash we will have more flexibility to do what we want in the 40 years that follow. God willing.

We also have no idea today where we will live Post Fire, other than it will be in Australia. Taking 2 or 3 years to look around and plan where we want to live makes some sense. FIRE now becomes a 2 step process. Step 1 get back to Australia. Step 2 FIRE. Might be easier than just walking away from work with no idea of the destination.

I now probably won’t be retired in my 40s anymore, but 51 or 52 (sigh) will still be pretty good. Not as good, but whatever.

The decision is made and I feel at peace with it.

DW is happy as she wanted to live a couple more years in our inner city home, close to her family and all of our friends that we haven’t seen much of these past 6 years living in the UAE, before moving somewhere quieter in a few years time..

At least the decision about what to do next is made.... for this week....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 02, 2020, 01:27:20 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 02, 2020, 01:02:35 PM

Sigh.... this is embarrassing....

I’m not going to FIRE. Not now.

No worries.  You have options, which is nice, and you're making thoughtful decisions that work the best for you and your family.  Congrats!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 02, 2020, 01:29:21 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 02, 2020, 01:27:20 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 02, 2020, 01:02:35 PM

Sigh.... this is embarrassing....

I’m not going to FIRE. Not now.

No worries.  You have options, which is nice, and you're making thoughtful decisions that work the best for you and your family.  Congrats!

You have a reasonable plan that works for you and your spouse.   You'll get no grief from me.  Working an extra year or two so you can help people or causes you love makes perfect sense to me.  (Did it ourselves!)   You can always quit the job earlier if you decide to.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 02, 2020, 01:58:35 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 02, 2020, 01:27:20 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 02, 2020, 01:02:35 PM

Sigh.... this is embarrassing....

I’m not going to FIRE. Not now.

No worries.  You have options, which is nice, and you're making thoughtful decisions that work the best for you and your family.  Congrats!

There is still plenty of life at 52 (usually). I quit at 52 and I've been having a wonderful time..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on July 02, 2020, 02:33:15 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 02, 2020, 01:29:21 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 02, 2020, 01:27:20 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 02, 2020, 01:02:35 PM

Sigh.... this is embarrassing....

I’m not going to FIRE. Not now.

No worries.  You have options, which is nice, and you're making thoughtful decisions that work the best for you and your family.  Congrats!

+1  Even in this club ($2-4mil) money isn't endless and Australia cities can be costly, if its necessary to facilitate a move home for family and friends that otherwise would be as possible then a little more time in the grind makes sense.   
You have a reasonable plan that works for you and your spouse.   You'll get no grief from me.  Working an extra year or two so you can help people or causes you love makes perfect sense to me.  (Did it ourselves!)   You can always quit the job earlier if you decide to.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on July 02, 2020, 02:43:21 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 02, 2020, 01:27:20 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 02, 2020, 01:02:35 PM

Sigh.... this is embarrassing....

I’m not going to FIRE. Not now.

No worries.  You have options, which is nice, and you're making thoughtful decisions that work the best for you and your family.  Congrats!

You are getting a paid-for relocation, which is nothing to sneeze at.  See how the job goes -- if you aren't happy at 6-12 months in you can still quit.

I FIREd at 46, but five years later at 51 I still have a ton of plans -- lots of things awaiting when my youngest is off to college in about 3 years. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roboturner on July 02, 2020, 02:54:52 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 01, 2020, 09:27:21 PM

Well, 2020 is officially halfway over. Up $927K for the year! What will happen in the second half?

looks like someone works for a certain EV company :P - congrats on the sweet gainz!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on July 02, 2020, 06:58:05 PM

Quote from: fireforfun on July 02, 2020, 07:08:44 AM

This. Is. Insane.

More insane today, apparently. At this rate, I'll have $3MM by the end of the month... Stonks?

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 02, 2020, 07:31:47 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 02, 2020, 06:58:05 PM

Quote from: fireforfun on July 02, 2020, 07:08:44 AM

This. Is. Insane.

More insane today, apparently. At this rate, I'll have $3MM by the end of the month... Stonks?

I'd consider diversifying if I were in what I understand your shoes to be.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on July 02, 2020, 08:08:54 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 02, 2020, 07:31:47 PM

I'd consider diversifying if I were in what I understand your shoes to be.

Don't worry, I have my investments allocated so that if any individual stock I own goes to zero, I will still be financially independent. My plan for now is to allocate my investments such that I am able to stay above $2MM in the near term, even if there is a major disruption in my investments. Anything above the $2MM mark is sort of funny money until I figure out some sort of plan for what I would actually spend it on.

That being said, I am employed full-time and spend only about $10K / year with a >95% paycheck savings rate so I am very insulated from disruptions to my finances.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on July 03, 2020, 05:50:52 PM

i'm finally back in the club officially.   
I strayed from my Investment plan and moved the majority of my 401k to bonds.  I figured that I have almost exactly what I need to retire forever and I don't want to lose that, so I decided to be a bit more conservative. 
My brokerage account is still 100% in equities, so I'm not completely in bonds. 
I also decided earlier this year not to try to save as much this year as has been my norm for the past few years. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: alienbogey on July 03, 2020, 09:53:22 PM

Our previous all time high NW was January 2020.  March was the Covid low (knock on wood) for us.  We're now at a new personal NW record with Covid cases spiking, big unemployment rates, huge future uncertainty, etc.

Crazy markets.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 04, 2020, 10:57:03 AM

I was weeping quietly in the corner this morning because I seem to be "permanently" stuck with investments at around $2.2M... Starvation that is!..;)

Edit:... I thought I should add up what we have. Turns out we have a nicely appointed 2020 Corvette in addition to the above number..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 04, 2020, 02:29:20 PM

I don't get it.  I just checked.  My investments are doing well.  Yet the economy has lots of people out of work.  Even the fireworks are cancelled.  If people are out of work, less stuff is bought and sold.  It seems like most investments would be down.  It all seems like funny money somehow.  Once again, I need some education.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on July 04, 2020, 02:57:09 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 04, 2020, 02:29:20 PM

I don't get it.  I just checked.  My investments are doing well.  Yet the economy has lots of people out of work.  Even the fireworks are cancelled.  If people are out of work, less stuff is bought and sold.  It seems like most investments would be down.  It all seems like funny money somehow.  Once again, I need some education.

I don't get it either....."they" say the stock market is not the economy.   I'm just enjoying this ride more than the one in March and April.....but, buckle up buttercup, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on July 04, 2020, 06:06:59 PM

Quote from: bluebelle on July 04, 2020, 02:57:09 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 04, 2020, 02:29:20 PM

I don't get it.  I just checked.  My investments are doing well.  Yet the economy has lots of people out of work.  Even the fireworks are cancelled.  If people are out of work, less stuff is bought and sold.  It seems like most investments would be down.  It all seems like funny money somehow.  Once again, I need some education.

I don't get it either....."they" say the stock market is not the economy.   I'm just enjoying this ride more than the one in March and April.....but, buckle up buttercup, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

I just assume it's where the inflation is hiding -- in assets.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 04, 2020, 06:21:46 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on July 04, 2020, 06:06:59 PM

Quote from: bluebelle on July 04, 2020, 02:57:09 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 04, 2020, 02:29:20 PM

I don't get it.  I just checked.  My investments are doing well.  Yet the economy has lots of people out of work.  Even the fireworks are cancelled.  If people are out of work, less stuff is bought and sold.  It seems like most investments would be down.  It all seems like funny money somehow.  Once again, I need some education.

I don't get it either....."they" say the stock market is not the economy.   I'm just enjoying this ride more than the one in March and April.....but, buckle up buttercup, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

I just assume it's where the inflation is hiding -- in assets.

Well - Then we've got a really good deal.  We have fairly stable prices and assets increasing.    And, I guess I can live without the fireworks this year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on July 05, 2020, 01:39:28 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 04, 2020, 10:57:03 AM

Turns out we have a nicely appointed 2020 Corvette in addition to the above number..:)

Just buy the C8 already!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 05, 2020, 10:52:13 PM

Hey all.  Back from Florida.   It was a short week but fun.  Test drove the QX80 in Tampa.  It was like a moving living room.  Plush but piss poor performance and shitty fuel mileage.  Wouldn't budge on price for the 2017 with 57,000 miles.  Hated the black color and even though a top of the line model, tech sucked.  Kept my 40 thousand smackers as headed home.  Next day picked our son up at the airport.   We kayaked the Rainbow River upstream and back down.  The back down was in the moonlight.   Many gator eyes shined on the way back.  Met up with friends and me, wife and son paddled thw Wiiki Wachee for the 4th.  Rented a truck for $250 bucks for the week driving from Louisiana and back.  Got my newer cars thrills in with thw rental.  I can rent a lot of weeks for 40K.  Looking for much cheaper cars now. 
Purchase agreement signed on 4 acres of rural land a mile from the Florida house.   Some progress was made this trip on that account.   Got my pool really clean.  Finally put all those chemistry and biology classes to work.   Nope, not sharing my $8 green to great procedure for pool cleaning.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on July 06, 2020, 08:04:18 AM

All this talk of a second wave ignores the fact that we never got out of the first wave. It seems we weren’t collectively smart enough for that.

Sigh

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 06, 2020, 08:16:51 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 04, 2020, 02:29:20 PM

I don't get it.  I just checked.  My investments are doing well.  Yet the economy has lots of people out of work.  Even the fireworks are cancelled.  If people are out of work, less stuff is bought and sold.  It seems like most investments would be down.  It all seems like funny money somehow.  Once again, I need some education.

 
Well add to that there is still 5 Trillion dollars sitting on the sidelines not invested yet

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 06, 2020, 10:53:21 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on July 06, 2020, 08:16:51 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 04, 2020, 02:29:20 PM

I don't get it.  I just checked.  My investments are doing well.  Yet the economy has lots of people out of work.  Even the fireworks are cancelled.  If people are out of work, less stuff is bought and sold.  It seems like most investments would be down.  It all seems like funny money somehow.  Once again, I need some education.

 
Well add to that there is still 5 Trillion dollars sitting on the sidelines not invested yet

Yes - That is what this article says too.
https://moneyandmarkets.com/why-5-trillion-in-cash-on-the-sidelines-is-bearish-for-stocks/ (https://moneyandmarkets.com/why-5-trillion-in-cash-on-the-sidelines-is-bearish-for-stocks/)

I don't blame people for keeping cash as the manure has not hit the thermantidote yet.  This disease seems to want to hang around and that may mean the high unemployment levels may be sustained.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 06, 2020, 11:32:02 AM

Who knows what the market will do?  I was getting tired of watching it go up, so decided to buy some ARK funds today.  There's 5 of them, so I just put 20% into each.  The top two (ARKW & ARKK) seem to overlap a bit, with their top stock being Tesla, so I figured that was like doubling up on the sector they are mainly in. 


I picked up some VGT & MGK from Vanguard for an equal balance with the ARK funds. 


I'll keep the rest in my MM account for a while.  I've got some real estate that should be selling with in a few weeks, so will probably put some more into the above, unless the sky falls. 


Btw, if I'd loaded up on ARKW a couple months ago I'd be yacht shopping now...  It's up over 52% YTD.  [size=78%] [/size]

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 06, 2020, 07:46:06 PM

Hi Everyone - lurker of this thread here, who, thanks to this crazy market, is back up to $2.3m NW at the ripe young age of 46 (and spouse 51).

I have retirementitis (really bad),but for many personal reasons gotta keep work for another 3 years. Got get into the new house being built, see hubby through getting his doctorate in nursing (graduates May 2022), get through Covid...  AAAAHHHHHHHH.

Hopefully reading about all your situations and adventures keeps me sane!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 07, 2020, 05:17:20 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 06, 2020, 07:46:06 PM

Hi Everyone - lurker of this thread here, who, thanks to this crazy market, is back up to $2.3m NW at the ripe young age of 46 (and spouse 51).

I have retirementitis (really bad),but for many personal reasons gotta keep work for another 3 years. Got get into the new house being built, see hubby through getting his doctorate in nursing (graduates May 2022), get through Covid...  AAAAHHHHHHHH.

Hopefully reading about all your situations and adventures keeps me sane!

Hi @rmorris50 and welcome!

So let me get this straight. You came to this thread for sanity?

 It reminds me of an exchange from the great philosophical movie “ghostbusters.”

Dr. Peter Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?
Dr. Raymond Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath-of-God type stuff. Fire and brimstone coming down from the sky! Rivers and seas boiling!
Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...
Winston Zeddmore: The dead rising from the grave!
Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - MASS HYSTERIA!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 4tify on July 07, 2020, 09:00:00 AM

I’ll probably fall back into the 1-2M race soon enough with 2020 being batshit crazy and all, but as of today I just crossed over the $2M mark LNW. Woo hoo!

Have another $200k tied up in residence but that’s being sold. Trying to figure out where to hang that up in between now and “some day I’ll buy a place with land.” Any suggestions from you rich folks??

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 07, 2020, 09:37:16 AM

Quote from: 4tify on July 07, 2020, 09:00:00 AM

I’ll probably fall back into the 1-2M race soon enough with 2020 being batshit crazy and all, but as of today I just crossed over the $2M mark LNW. Woo hoo!

Have another $200k tied up in residence but that’s being sold. Trying to figure out where to hang that up in between now and “some day I’ll buy a place with land.” Any suggestions from you rich folks??

"Some day" is pretty iffy.    If that's in a couple of years, park it in a high interest savings account.

If it's 10 years out, invest it.

There may be some good real estate deals coming up over the next year if you're interested in real estate investing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 07, 2020, 10:31:06 AM

Quote from: 4tify on July 07, 2020, 09:00:00 AM

I’ll probably fall back into the 1-2M race soon enough with 2020 being batshit crazy and all, but as of today I just crossed over the $2M mark LNW. Woo hoo!

Have another $200k tied up in residence but that’s being sold. Trying to figure out where to hang that up in between now and “some day I’ll buy a place with land.” Any suggestions from you rich folks??

Buy the FANGS.  Seems to have been working a long time.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 07, 2020, 08:15:48 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 07, 2020, 05:17:20 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 06, 2020, 07:46:06 PM

Hi Everyone - lurker of this thread here, who, thanks to this crazy market, is back up to $2.3m NW at the ripe young age of 46 (and spouse 51).

I have retirementitis (really bad),but for many personal reasons gotta keep work for another 3 years. Got get into the new house being built, see hubby through getting his doctorate in nursing (graduates May 2022), get through Covid...  AAAAHHHHHHHH.

Hopefully reading about all your situations and adventures keeps me sane!

Hi @rmorris50 and welcome!

So let me get this straight. You came to this thread for sanity?

 It reminds me of an exchange from the great philosophical movie “ghostbusters.”

Dr. Peter Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?
Dr. Raymond Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath-of-God type stuff. Fire and brimstone coming down from the sky! Rivers and seas boiling!
Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...
Winston Zeddmore: The dead rising from the grave!
Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - MASS HYSTERIA!

Sanity is all relative...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 07, 2020, 08:19:07 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 07, 2020, 09:37:16 AM

Quote from: 4tify on July 07, 2020, 09:00:00 AM

I’ll probably fall back into the 1-2M race soon enough with 2020 being batshit crazy and all, but as of today I just crossed over the $2M mark LNW. Woo hoo!

Have another $200k tied up in residence but that’s being sold. Trying to figure out where to hang that up in between now and “some day I’ll buy a place with land.” Any suggestions from you rich folks??

"Some day" is pretty iffy.    If that's in a couple of years, park it in a high interest savings account.

If it's 10 years out, invest it.

There may be some good real estate deals coming up over the next year if you're interested in real estate investing.

What is this mythical "high interest savings account" of which you speak?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 07, 2020, 08:55:29 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 07, 2020, 08:19:07 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 07, 2020, 09:37:16 AM

Quote from: 4tify on July 07, 2020, 09:00:00 AM

I’ll probably fall back into the 1-2M race soon enough with 2020 being batshit crazy and all, but as of today I just crossed over the $2M mark LNW. Woo hoo!

Have another $200k tied up in residence but that’s being sold. Trying to figure out where to hang that up in between now and “some day I’ll buy a place with land.” Any suggestions from you rich folks??

"Some day" is pretty iffy.    If that's in a couple of years, park it in a high interest savings account.

If it's 10 years out, invest it.

There may be some good real estate deals coming up over the next year if you're interested in real estate investing.

What is this mythical "high interest savings account" of which you speak?

I see people reference online bank savings accounts that pay 1%.  High is relative to brick and mortar banks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 08, 2020, 09:09:42 AM

Welcome new members to this club.   

@Bateaux I NEED that $8 pool clean up recipe.   My big light bulb moment for our pool was to get a wire brush (amazon, $16) instead of a plastic bristle one.  Wow did that get the green off.   Our pool is a slice of heaven, even if sometimes it's slightly greenish heaven!  Good for the immune system, IMO. 

All you prospective Camino hikers... that's a great goal.  We've stayed in many places near some legs of the Santiago and met many pilgrims.  I'm not a walker (bad feet) but would definitely go by muleback if that option ever presents itself.  My husband is hiking the Grand Canyon, Mt Whitney and some others, so I'm sure the Camino would rise to the top of the list if possible.   We'll see when the travel ban lifts.  I don't expect that to happen anytime soon. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 08, 2020, 09:29:09 AM

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RF1FKBN/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_.wEbFb3G5GSHQ  (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RF1FKBN/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_.wEbFb3G5GSHQ)

Quote from: JoJoP on July 08, 2020, 09:09:42 AM

JojoP. Add a little copper sulfate to the pool.  Maybe half a cup of the crystals.  It binds to the microbes and kills them.  They sink to the bottom and can be filtered out.   May want to wait a day after treatment to swim.  Beautiful blue water once all the algae is removed.   Wear gloves and don't breathe in dust.


Welcome new members to this club.   

@Bateaux I NEED that $8 pool clean up recipe.   My big light bulb moment for our pool was to get a wire brush (amazon, $16) instead of a plastic bristle one.  Wow did that get the green off.   Our pool is a slice of heaven, even if sometimes it's slightly greenish heaven!  Good for the immune system, IMO. 

All you prospective Camino hikers... that's a great goal.  We've stayed in many places near some legs of the Santiago and met many pilgrims.  I'm not a walker (bad feet) but would definitely go by muleback if that option ever presents itself.  My husband is hiking the Grand Canyon, Mt Whitney and some others, so I'm sure the Camino would rise to the top of the list if possible.   We'll see when the travel ban lifts.  I don't expect that to happen anytime soon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 12:58:30 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 06, 2020, 07:46:06 PM

Hi Everyone - lurker of this thread here, who, thanks to this crazy market, is back up to $2.3m NW at the ripe young age of 46 (and spouse 51).

I have retirementitis (really bad),but for many personal reasons gotta keep work for another 3 years. Got get into the new house being built, see hubby through getting his doctorate in nursing (graduates May 2022), get through Covid...  AAAAHHHHHHHH.

Hopefully reading about all your situations and adventures keeps me sane!

This is a tantalizing post. You're almost ready to RE, but DH is just about to begin a new career or significantly build on an existing one? Please, @rmorris50, share more details.
BTW, by the time my DH retires, I will have been FIRE for at least eight years, so I know it's doable. Just wondering what your plans are.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on July 08, 2020, 02:37:50 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 12:58:30 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 06, 2020, 07:46:06 PM

Hi Everyone - lurker of this thread here, who, thanks to this crazy market, is back up to $2.3m NW at the ripe young age of 46 (and spouse 51).

I have retirementitis (really bad),but for many personal reasons gotta keep work for another 3 years. Got get into the new house being built, see hubby through getting his doctorate in nursing (graduates May 2022), get through Covid...  AAAAHHHHHHHH.

Hopefully reading about all your situations and adventures keeps me sane!

This is a tantalizing post. You're almost ready to RE, but DH is just about to begin a new career or significantly build on an existing one? Please, @rmorris50, share more details.
BTW, by the time my DH retires, I will have been FIRE for at least eight years, so I know it's doable. Just wondering what your plans are.

getting a doctorate in nursing at 51 w/ $2M+ in the bank?  I am quite sure I have never had whatever drive that takes.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 08, 2020, 03:02:20 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on July 08, 2020, 02:37:50 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 12:58:30 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 06, 2020, 07:46:06 PM

Hi Everyone - lurker of this thread here, who, thanks to this crazy market, is back up to $2.3m NW at the ripe young age of 46 (and spouse 51).

I have retirementitis (really bad),but for many personal reasons gotta keep work for another 3 years. Got get into the new house being built, see hubby through getting his doctorate in nursing (graduates May 2022), get through Covid...  AAAAHHHHHHHH.

Hopefully reading about all your situations and adventures keeps me sane!

This is a tantalizing post. You're almost ready to RE, but DH is just about to begin a new career or significantly build on an existing one? Please, @rmorris50, share more details.
BTW, by the time my DH retires, I will have been FIRE for at least eight years, so I know it's doable. Just wondering what your plans are.

getting a doctorate in nursing at 51 w/ $2M+ in the bank?  I am quite sure I have never had whatever drive that takes.....

haha +1

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 08, 2020, 06:19:11 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 12:58:30 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 06, 2020, 07:46:06 PM

Hi Everyone - lurker of this thread here, who, thanks to this crazy market, is back up to $2.3m NW at the ripe young age of 46 (and spouse 51).

I have retirementitis (really bad),but for many personal reasons gotta keep work for another 3 years. Got get into the new house being built, see hubby through getting his doctorate in nursing (graduates May 2022), get through Covid...  AAAAHHHHHHHH.

Hopefully reading about all your situations and adventures keeps me sane!

This is a tantalizing post. You're almost ready to RE, but DH is just about to begin a new career or significantly build on an existing one? Please, @rmorris50, share more details.
BTW, by the time my DH retires, I will have been FIRE for at least eight years, so I know it's doable. Just wondering what your plans are.

Haha @Dicey my husband and I definitely have taken different career paths! When I first met him, in MidWest City USA, I was career driven and he definitely was "having more fun", in a dead-end marketing job, and between the two of us we basically had nothing to our name!

A year after meeting him, in 2004 I got offered a job in NYC and to my surprise he said he would go with me! But the compromise what that he could reinvent himself. So while I focused on my working career, he went back to school, got his nursing degree, started working, later went for his masters, and is now going for his doctorate! He's definitely has found is career calling much later in life than me. So that makes me so happy for him. He has no desire to retire whatsoever.

Me however, my career has (past) peaked and I am ready for my new chapter. $2M of the $2.3M NW we have is in my name, and I am burned out from earning it! Once hubby graduates he is supportive of me retiring and finding something new to do. You know, something more fulfilling and less stressful, but isn't the go-go-go, high earning fast paced career of the past.

I'd love to working on my Spanish fluency, teach math, help take care of my mother, volunteer, take gig work in my field which I get to choose, and/or just be a house-husband to our two dogs, the only children we have! I said I would learn to cook too, but he looked at me like he would never eat my cooking!

I am lucky that we are very supportive of each other's very different journey's. Definitely something I try not to take for granted!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 08, 2020, 07:01:09 PM

@rmorris50 Good for you!

Heck you could even retire..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 08:46:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 08, 2020, 07:01:09 PM

@rmorris50 Good for you!

Heck you could even retire..:)

[Insert affectionate eye roll here.]

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 08, 2020, 10:01:41 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 02, 2020, 08:08:54 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 02, 2020, 07:31:47 PM

I'd consider diversifying if I were in what I understand your shoes to be.

Don't worry, I have my investments allocated so that if any individual stock I own goes to zero, I will still be financially independent. My plan for now is to allocate my investments such that I am able to stay above $2MM in the near term, even if there is a major disruption in my investments. Anything above the $2MM mark is sort of funny money until I figure out some sort of plan for what I would actually spend it on.

That being said, I am employed full-time and spend only about $10K / year with a >95% paycheck savings rate so I am very insulated from disruptions to my finances.

At your point in life, there is a whole lot more value in what you are intending to do than in what your numbers are.  So, please, pray tell, what are your goals and ambitions?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 09, 2020, 06:09:05 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 08, 2020, 10:01:41 PM

- SNIP -

At your point in life, there is a whole lot more value in what you are intending to do than in what your numbers are.  So, please, pray tell, what are your goals and ambitions?

Yeh - This site if kind of nice.  You hear about people's dreams and what's more - You hear about them coming true.  You can make the goals and ambitions happen.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 09, 2020, 10:33:12 AM

So, I took the job. It’s been announced to the Megacorp world. Congratulation messages are streaming in. Repatriation date is locked in. My successor is Dubai has been named and I have given notice to my landlord here and served notice on my tenants there.

No turning back now. No more will I FIRE or won’t I. I am working 3 more years.

Long hours, more hanging around airports and needless bureaucracy awaits.... and yet I fell energised and motivated to get stuck in.

But next up we face the joys of packing up our lives and shedding a tear as we farewell some amazing friends.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 09, 2020, 11:16:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 08:46:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 08, 2020, 07:01:09 PM

@rmorris50 Good for you!

Heck you could even retire..:)

[Insert affectionate eye roll here.]

Retire would be nice! I actually like to be productive and busy, but I look forward to having it be totally on my terms and focus on what I want to! I do tend to get very lazy if I don't have structure/goals.

I wonder how much guilt I am going to have if hubby is working and I am just being a slacker all day (I say that in jest, kinda). But maybe I"ll get over it quickly!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 09, 2020, 12:35:13 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 09, 2020, 11:16:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 08:46:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 08, 2020, 07:01:09 PM

@rmorris50 Good for you!

Heck you could even retire..:)

[Insert affectionate eye roll here.]

Retire would be nice! I actually like to be productive and busy, but I look forward to having it be totally on my terms and focus on what I want to! I do tend to get very lazy if I don't have structure/goals.

I wonder how much guilt I am going to have if hubby is working and I am just being a slacker all day (I say that in jest, kinda). But maybe I"ll get over it quickly!

Oh yeah you will..:)

I have found myself saying I should go back to real work for a rest.. He says having been busting his a** around our hobby farm/rental bus for the last month!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 09, 2020, 01:38:12 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2020, 12:35:13 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 09, 2020, 11:16:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 08:46:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 08, 2020, 07:01:09 PM

@rmorris50 Good for you!

Heck you could even retire..:)

[Insert affectionate eye roll here.]

Retire would be nice! I actually like to be productive and busy, but I look forward to having it be totally on my terms and focus on what I want to! I do tend to get very lazy if I don't have structure/goals.

I wonder how much guilt I am going to have if hubby is working and I am just being a slacker all day (I say that in jest, kinda). But maybe I"ll get over it quickly!

Oh yeah you will..:)

I have found myself saying I should go back to real work for a rest.. He says having been busting his a** around our hobby farm/rental bus for the last month!

Haha, my husband says that all the time! Happily, his pension kicks in in less than a year and he's finally starting to make noises about retiring. Hooray!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 09, 2020, 04:44:54 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 09, 2020, 01:38:12 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2020, 12:35:13 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 09, 2020, 11:16:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 08:46:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 08, 2020, 07:01:09 PM

@rmorris50 Good for you!

Heck you could even retire..:)

[Insert affectionate eye roll here.]

Retire would be nice! I actually like to be productive and busy, but I look forward to having it be totally on my terms and focus on what I want to! I do tend to get very lazy if I don't have structure/goals.

I wonder how much guilt I am going to have if hubby is working and I am just being a slacker all day (I say that in jest, kinda). But maybe I"ll get over it quickly!

Oh yeah you will..:)

I have found myself saying I should go back to real work for a rest.. He says having been busting his a** around our hobby farm/rental bus for the last month!

Haha, my husband says that all the time! Happily, his pension kicks in in less than a year and he's finally starting to make noises about retiring. Hooray!

Oooh yes pensions..We like those. Mine fully matures in 1 year and 13 months, although I could take it now for a reduced payout.

Needless to say if the renter in the god awful trailer doesn't sign up at the end of her lease next year I would not be exactly heartbroken..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 09, 2020, 05:19:57 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2020, 04:44:54 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 09, 2020, 01:38:12 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2020, 12:35:13 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 09, 2020, 11:16:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 08:46:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 08, 2020, 07:01:09 PM

@rmorris50 Good for you!

Heck you could even retire..:)

[Insert affectionate eye roll here.]

Retire would be nice! I actually like to be productive and busy, but I look forward to having it be totally on my terms and focus on what I want to! I do tend to get very lazy if I don't have structure/goals.

I wonder how much guilt I am going to have if hubby is working and I am just being a slacker all day (I say that in jest, kinda). But maybe I"ll get over it quickly!

Oh yeah you will..:)

I have found myself saying I should go back to real work for a rest.. He says having been busting his a** around our hobby farm/rental bus for the last month!

Haha, my husband says that all the time! Happily, his pension kicks in in less than a year and he's finally starting to make noises about retiring. Hooray!

Oooh yes pensions..We like those. Mine fully matures in 1 year and 13 months, although I could take it now for a reduced payout.

Needless to say if the renter in the god awful trailer doesn't sign up at the end of her lease next year I would not be exactly heartbroken..:)

What’s the story about the trailer (for those of us who haven’t been following)?

Oh and pensions are very, very nice.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 09, 2020, 05:46:20 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 09, 2020, 10:33:12 AM

So, I took the job. It’s been announced to the Megacorp world. Congratulation messages are streaming in. Repatriation date is locked in. My successor is Dubai has been named and I have given notice to my landlord here and served notice on my tenants there.

No turning back now. No more will I FIRE or won’t I. I am working 3 more years.

Long hours, more hanging around airports and needless bureaucracy awaits.... and yet I fell energised and motivated to get stuck in.

But next up we face the joys of packing up our lives and shedding a tear as we farewell some amazing friends.

You'll be happy padding the purse a bit more and waiting out the pandemic with a paycheck.  I'm sure the move will be exhausting.   Best of luck.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 09, 2020, 07:00:08 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2020, 12:35:13 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 09, 2020, 11:16:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 08:46:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 08, 2020, 07:01:09 PM

@rmorris50 Good for you!

Heck you could even retire..:)

[Insert affectionate eye roll here.]

Retire would be nice! I actually like to be productive and busy, but I look forward to having it be totally on my terms and focus on what I want to! I do tend to get very lazy if I don't have structure/goals.

I wonder how much guilt I am going to have if hubby is working and I am just being a slacker all day (I say that in jest, kinda). But maybe I"ll get over it quickly!

Oh yeah you will..:)

I have found myself saying I should go back to real work for a rest.. He says having been busting his a** around our hobby farm/rental bus for the last month!

I also love to work out. Retiring will let me fight the slow onslaught of aging tooth and nail. I ain't going down without a fight, haha! Actually, I'm really excited to (semi) retire and live life on my terms. I've only known school/work my whole life. Never even have had a proper sabbatical. My dad threw me into factor work at the age of 14!!! But MegaCorp USA politics are the WORSE, NEED TO ESCAPE!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 10, 2020, 06:30:37 AM

I was looking at some old papers and came across my first W2. I started work in September 1991 at an annual salary of about $65k. I was curious and checked the inflation calculator which says that its equivalent to about $121K in current dollars. I'd be interested to hear what your salary was at your first "real" job.

Also, as I recall, my net worth was about $2000 in my savings account on my first day of work. I really needed that first paycheck :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on July 10, 2020, 11:52:54 AM

In my first full time real job I made, base and bonus, $167,500, which would be $196,949.38 now.  My base / bonus now is lower than that, but I have retirement contributions that bring that up to just a hair more.  But I don't know if I am getting my bonus.  So ten years and no difference.  But I thank God every day that I am not in that job.  The QOL difference is night and day.  I am so glad that I managed to get out while still earning a decent income.

This is a reflection of the very unusual structure of the job market for certain segments of the legal industry. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LostGirl on July 10, 2020, 12:02:38 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 10, 2020, 06:30:37 AM

I was looking at some old papers and came across my first W2. I started work in September 1991 at an annual salary of about $65k. I was curious and checked the inflation calculator which says that its equivalent to about $121K in current dollars. I'd be interested to hear what your salary was at your first "real" job.

Also, as I recall, my net worth was about $2000 in my savings account on my first day of work. I really needed that first paycheck :-)

$65k in 1991 is a lot for your first job! I was making 20,000 less 10+ years later, in my first job out of college.

I didn't crack six figure income until 7 or 8 years ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 10, 2020, 12:39:47 PM

Quote from: Pennycounter on July 10, 2020, 12:02:38 PM

$65k in 1991 is a lot for your first job! I was making 20,000 less 10+ years later, in my first job out of college.

I didn't crack six figure income until 7 or 8 years ago.

I had just completed my PhD and this was a research position in a big tech company. You're right, $65k did feel like a lot. However, the five years prior to starting work, I lived on a poverty-level grad student stipend of $9k per year :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 10, 2020, 03:09:41 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 10, 2020, 12:39:47 PM

Quote from: Pennycounter on July 10, 2020, 12:02:38 PM

$65k in 1991 is a lot for your first job! I was making 20,000 less 10+ years later, in my first job out of college.

I didn't crack six figure income until 7 or 8 years ago.

I had just completed my PhD and this was a research position in a big tech company. You're right, $65k did feel like a lot. However, the five years prior to starting work, I lived on a poverty-level grad student stipend of $9k per year :-)

We went from 1/3rd median family income (and paying child support) to $30K in 1988, which was median family income.   Damn but we felt we were rolling in money!    If I had only known what I learned  from MMM and other FIRE bloggers back then...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on July 10, 2020, 05:03:25 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 02, 2020, 06:58:05 PM

More insane today, apparently. At this rate, I'll have $3MM by the end of the month... Stonks?

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70

Past $3MM now! Now, onwards to $4MM?

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70
07/10/2020: $3,098,138.96

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 10, 2020, 08:54:38 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 09, 2020, 05:19:57 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2020, 04:44:54 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 09, 2020, 01:38:12 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2020, 12:35:13 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 09, 2020, 11:16:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 08:46:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 08, 2020, 07:01:09 PM

@rmorris50 Good for you!

Heck you could even retire..:)

[Insert affectionate eye roll here.]

Retire would be nice! I actually like to be productive and busy, but I look forward to having it be totally on my terms and focus on what I want to! I do tend to get very lazy if I don't have structure/goals.

I wonder how much guilt I am going to have if hubby is working and I am just being a slacker all day (I say that in jest, kinda). But maybe I"ll get over it quickly!

Oh yeah you will..:)

I have found myself saying I should go back to real work for a rest.. He says having been busting his a** around our hobby farm/rental bus for the last month!

Haha, my husband says that all the time! Happily, his pension kicks in in less than a year and he's finally starting to make noises about retiring. Hooray!

Oooh yes pensions..We like those. Mine fully matures in 1 year and 13 months, although I could take it now for a reduced payout.

Needless to say if the renter in the god awful trailer doesn't sign up at the end of her lease next year I would not be exactly heartbroken..:)

What’s the story about the trailer (for those of us who haven’t been following)?

Oh and pensions are very, very nice.

Oh, mainly me just whining abut here I am this rich (or so I thought till I saw Herbert Derp's numbers..:)..) guy and I have these two rental businesses that make a fairly significant income and I really don't want to do it anymore.

The problem is the rentals are on my property and one of them is a single wide trailer. I spend about 2 or 3 days per year maintaining/repairing the rentals and it makes about $20k/year.

I know hard life right?

My issue is; I just don't want to do it anymore because you know.. people in my property. The problem is it will be a significant hassle/work to remove the trailer (manufactured home) from my property.

Honestly the easiest thing is to keep renting and earning the money.

Its a hard life..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 11, 2020, 06:06:36 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 10, 2020, 03:09:41 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 10, 2020, 12:39:47 PM

Quote from: Pennycounter on July 10, 2020, 12:02:38 PM

$65k in 1991 is a lot for your first job! I was making 20,000 less 10+ years later, in my first job out of college.

I didn't crack six figure income until 7 or 8 years ago.

I had just completed my PhD and this was a research position in a big tech company. You're right, $65k did feel like a lot. However, the five years prior to starting work, I lived on a poverty-level grad student stipend of $9k per year :-)

We went from 1/3rd median family income (and paying child support) to $30K in 1988, which was median family income.   Damn but we felt we were rolling in money!    If I had only known what I learned  from MMM and other FIRE bloggers back then...

If only I knew the concepts and methods back then.  The power of learning from the Internet made me wealthy.  Still did ok, top five percent of so.  Surely wish I could advise younger me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 11, 2020, 06:12:00 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 10, 2020, 08:54:38 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 09, 2020, 05:19:57 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2020, 04:44:54 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 09, 2020, 01:38:12 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2020, 12:35:13 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 09, 2020, 11:16:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 08:46:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 08, 2020, 07:01:09 PM

@rmorris50 Good for you!

Heck you could even retire..:)

[Insert affectionate eye roll here.]

Retire would be nice! I actually like to be productive and busy, but I look forward to having it be totally on my terms and focus on what I want to! I do tend to get very lazy if I don't have structure/goals.

I wonder how much guilt I am going to have if hubby is working and I am just being a slacker all day (I say that in jest, kinda). But maybe I"ll get over it quickly!

Oh yeah you will..:)

I have found myself saying I should go back to real work for a rest.. He says having been busting his a** around our hobby farm/rental bus for the last month!

Haha, my husband says that all the time! Happily, his pension kicks in in less than a year and he's finally starting to make noises about retiring. Hooray!

Oooh yes pensions..We like those. Mine fully matures in 1 year and 13 months, although I could take it now for a reduced payout.

Needless to say if the renter in the god awful trailer doesn't sign up at the end of her lease next year I would not be exactly heartbroken..:)

What’s the story about the trailer (for those of us who haven’t been following)?

Oh and pensions are very, very nice.

Oh, mainly me just whining abut here I am this rich (or so I thought till I saw Herbert Derp's numbers..:)..) guy and I have these two rental businesses that make a fairly significant income and I really don't want to do it anymore.

The problem is the rentals are on my property and one of them is a single wide trailer. I spend about 2 or 3 days per year maintaining/repairing the rentals and it makes about $20k/year.

I know hard life right?

My issue is; I just don't want to do it anymore because you know.. people in my property. The problem is it will be a significant hassle/work to remove the trailer (manufactured home) from my property.

Honestly the easiest thing is to keep renting and earning the money.

Its a hard life..:)

I've often considered renting my Louisiana properties.  Probably 30k to 35k a year in income would be possible.  Could move to the Florida house and that would cover all the Florida house expenses.   But I had kids.   They don't move out anymore.   It's probably easier to save another 500k to cover Florida house expenses and just abandon the Louisiana properties.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 11, 2020, 07:37:12 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 11, 2020, 06:06:36 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 10, 2020, 03:09:41 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 10, 2020, 12:39:47 PM

Quote from: Pennycounter on July 10, 2020, 12:02:38 PM

$65k in 1991 is a lot for your first job! I was making 20,000 less 10+ years later, in my first job out of college.

I didn't crack six figure income until 7 or 8 years ago.

I had just completed my PhD and this was a research position in a big tech company. You're right, $65k did feel like a lot. However, the five years prior to starting work, I lived on a poverty-level grad student stipend of $9k per year :-)

We went from 1/3rd median family income (and paying child support) to $30K in 1988, which was median family income.   Damn but we felt we were rolling in money!    If I had only known what I learned  from MMM and other FIRE bloggers back then...

If only I knew the concepts and methods back then.  The power of learning from the Internet made me wealthy.  Still did ok, top five percent of so.  Surely wish I could advise younger me.

My first full time job, back in 1991 paid me the princely sum of $14K AUD (say $10K USD). And at that time I was pretty happy with that,

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 11, 2020, 08:42:25 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 10, 2020, 08:54:38 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 09, 2020, 05:19:57 PM

What’s the story about the trailer (for those of us who haven’t been following)?

Oh and pensions are very, very nice.

Oh, mainly me just whining abut here I am this rich (or so I thought till I saw Herbert Derp's numbers..:)..) guy and I have these two rental businesses that make a fairly significant income and I really don't want to do it anymore.

The problem is the rentals are on my property and one of them is a single wide trailer. I spend about 2 or 3 days per year maintaining/repairing the rentals and it makes about $20k/year.

I know hard life right?

My issue is; I just don't want to do it anymore because you know.. people in my property. The problem is it will be a significant hassle/work to remove the trailer (manufactured home) from my property.

Honestly the easiest thing is to keep renting and earning the money.

Its a hard life..:)

Ah. So it’s a 1%er problem. :-p

So let me ask this question then: are you a moral landlord? Do you charge fair prices for a relatively low cost place for someone to live? Are there many low cost housing alternatives in your area with landlords who treat their tenants better than you do?

Noblesse oblige FTW. Heh, heh, heh.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

I've got five more weeks left of work!!
This past week I started to feel very at peace with my decision to leave. I think I'm actually ready. It feels great.

Checked on the net worth today. $3M total. $2.9M without the house. That includes $62k in kids 529s though. And $30k that we are still planning to spend on a new car for DH. I'm not sure what he's waiting for on that. Guess he's just trying to get every last mile out of old the old Accord.

As I was checking on NW, I realized that when we hit $4.3M a 3% draw down will bring us $130k a year which is exactly what we bring home (net of taxes and retirement etc, $240k gross) right now with both of us working and it is more than enough for all the things. Including crazy tuition. That's nuts. So unless we have another crazy drop or a few years of really stagnant returns, we should hit $4.3M relatively easy. Not that we really need, or even want to do that, I just predict it will happen.
At that realization made me really glad I put in my notice. I do not want to look back and have too much money but feeling like I didn't have enough time to do the things I want, with the people I want.
Life is good, and kind of unbelievable.

My first salary out of college in 2001 was $32k but I worked darn near 80 hours a week during busy season to earn that. DH's first salaried position out of college was $14k in 2003 and most of it was eaten up by health insurance expenses. I remember doing his taxes for him that year and telling him he should go in and ask for less pay so he could get on food stamps and Medicaid. But his employer (small town) didn't want to do that because it made them look bad. Talk about working poor. But he was only there a year and the next contract paid double, and then the next was double that etc. So he made it work. But we have both worked super hard. We did this by always saving my salary less childcare and living on his salary which was always the smaller of the two. That was advice we got from my uncle when we got married. I'd like to thank him for it, but I don't want to give away our net worth. Ha!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on July 11, 2020, 10:45:06 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 08, 2020, 10:01:41 PM

At your point in life, there is a whole lot more value in what you are intending to do than in what your numbers are.  So, please, pray tell, what are your goals and ambitions?

This is what I'm currently thinking about.

Short term:

• Get a car
• Get a girlfriend

Medium term:

• Move out of the city
• Gain experience working on farms

Long term:

• Relocate to another country?
• Marriage / children?
• Buy a bunch of land and see if I can live off-grid?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on July 11, 2020, 12:05:21 PM

Herbert Derp, your comment about "find a girlfriend reminded me of an NPR Planet Money podcast with a great episode about an economist who tried a new way of dating.  It's recapped here:

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/07/888690075/summer-school-1-choices-dating

The podcast is entertaining, and hey, you might even like the method. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 11, 2020, 12:50:29 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

My first salary out of college in 2001 was $32k but I worked darn near 80 hours a week during busy season to earn that. DH's first salaried position out of college was $14k in 2003 and most of it was eaten up by health insurance expenses. I remember doing his taxes for him that year and telling him he should go in and ask for less pay so he could get on food stamps and Medicaid. But his employer (small town) didn't want to do that because it made them look bad. Talk about working poor. But he was only there a year and the next contract paid double, and then the next was double that etc. So he made it work. But we have both worked super hard. We did this by always saving my salary less childcare and living on his salary which was always the smaller of the two. That was advice we got from my uncle when we got married. I'd like to thank him for it, but I don't want to give away our net worth. Ha!

Congrats - that's a real achievement, getting to such a fat FI number in just 19 years!

In my household too, we have always tried to live on one salary. For a long time my salary was the higher but in recent years, my wife (who has reached the executive rank in her company) has overtaken me by a considerable amount - and I'm very happy :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 11, 2020, 01:56:08 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 11, 2020, 10:45:06 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 08, 2020, 10:01:41 PM

At your point in life, there is a whole lot more value in what you are intending to do than in what your numbers are.  So, please, pray tell, what are your goals and ambitions?

This is what I'm currently thinking about.

Short term:

• Get a car

that's expensive

Quote

• Get a girlfriend

that's even more expensive

Quote

Medium term:

• Move out of the city
• Gain experience working on farms

Long term:

• Relocate to another country?
• Marriage / children?

If you had reversed these, I'd wonder if you're relocating to get away from the wife and kids.  :D 

Quote

• Buy a bunch of land and see if I can live off-grid?

so they don't find you?



All joking, of course.  It's quite the plan.  Life gets to throw wrenches into it all. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 11, 2020, 03:04:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

I've got five more weeks left of work!!
This past week I started to feel very at peace with my decision to leave. I think I'm actually ready. It feels great.

Checked on the net worth today. $3M total. $2.9M without the house. That includes $62k in kids 529s though. And $30k that we are still planning to spend on a new car for DH. I'm not sure what he's waiting for on that. Guess he's just trying to get every last mile out of old the old Accord.

As I was checking on NW, I realized that when we hit $4.3M a 3% draw down will bring us $130k a year which is exactly what we bring home (net of taxes and retirement etc, $240k gross) right now with both of us working and it is more than enough for all the things. Including crazy tuition. That's nuts. So unless we have another crazy drop or a few years of really stagnant returns, we should hit $4.3M relatively easy. Not that we really need, or even want to do that, I just predict it will happen.
At that realization made me really glad I put in my notice. I do not want to look back and have too much money but feeling like I didn't have enough time to do the things I want, with the people I want.
Life is good, and kind of unbelievable.

Congrats, what a huge achievement. I'm curious if you've done a cash flow projection for rest of your life? Have others on this board? I've never trusted withdrawal rules and NW measurements, and the cash flow projections have been the most useful in making retirement decisions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 11, 2020, 05:00:17 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 11, 2020, 08:42:25 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 10, 2020, 08:54:38 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 09, 2020, 05:19:57 PM

What’s the story about the trailer (for those of us who haven’t been following)?

Oh and pensions are very, very nice.

Oh, mainly me just whining abut here I am this rich (or so I thought till I saw Herbert Derp's numbers..:)..) guy and I have these two rental businesses that make a fairly significant income and I really don't want to do it anymore.

The problem is the rentals are on my property and one of them is a single wide trailer. I spend about 2 or 3 days per year maintaining/repairing the rentals and it makes about $20k/year.

I know hard life right?

My issue is; I just don't want to do it anymore because you know.. people in my property. The problem is it will be a significant hassle/work to remove the trailer (manufactured home) from my property.

Honestly the easiest thing is to keep renting and earning the money.

Its a hard life..:)

Ah. So it’s a 1%er problem. :-p

So let me ask this question then: are you a moral landlord? Do you charge fair prices for a relatively low cost place for someone to live? Are there many low cost housing alternatives in your area with landlords who treat their tenants better than you do?

Noblesse oblige FTW. Heh, heh, heh.

Yes I am. Several renters have told me I am the best LL they have ever had. Stuff gets fixed fast (I so it all myself) and I charge a little under the market rate.

I have heard numerous horror stories of landlords in town who want to make maximum income for minimum outlay.

In my view happy tenants are long term tenants and hopefully won't trash your house when they leave.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 11, 2020, 05:14:59 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 11, 2020, 05:00:17 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 11, 2020, 08:42:25 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 10, 2020, 08:54:38 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 09, 2020, 05:19:57 PM

What’s the story about the trailer (for those of us who haven’t been following)?

Oh and pensions are very, very nice.

Oh, mainly me just whining abut here I am this rich (or so I thought till I saw Herbert Derp's numbers..:)..) guy and I have these two rental businesses that make a fairly significant income and I really don't want to do it anymore.

The problem is the rentals are on my property and one of them is a single wide trailer. I spend about 2 or 3 days per year maintaining/repairing the rentals and it makes about $20k/year.

I know hard life right?

My issue is; I just don't want to do it anymore because you know.. people in my property. The problem is it will be a significant hassle/work to remove the trailer (manufactured home) from my property.

Honestly the easiest thing is to keep renting and earning the money.

Its a hard life..:)

Ah. So it’s a 1%er problem. :-p

So let me ask this question then: are you a moral landlord? Do you charge fair prices for a relatively low cost place for someone to live? Are there many low cost housing alternatives in your area with landlords who treat their tenants better than you do?

Noblesse oblige FTW. Heh, heh, heh.

Yes I am. Several renters have told me I am the best LL they have ever had. Stuff gets fixed fast (I so it all myself) and I charge a little under the market rate.

I have heard numerous horror stories of landlords in town who want to make maximum income for minimum outlay.

In my view happy tenants are long term tenants and hopefully won't trash your house when they leave.

So you're a great landlord, you charge a fair price for rent, you provide a service that is desperately needed in most communities, and you're presumably making some coin in the process.  Doing public service and turning a buck in the process sounds like a win to me.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 11, 2020, 05:32:45 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 11, 2020, 05:14:59 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 11, 2020, 05:00:17 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 11, 2020, 08:42:25 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 10, 2020, 08:54:38 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 09, 2020, 05:19:57 PM

What’s the story about the trailer (for those of us who haven’t been following)?

Oh and pensions are very, very nice.

Oh, mainly me just whining abut here I am this rich (or so I thought till I saw Herbert Derp's numbers..:)..) guy and I have these two rental businesses that make a fairly significant income and I really don't want to do it anymore.

The problem is the rentals are on my property and one of them is a single wide trailer. I spend about 2 or 3 days per year maintaining/repairing the rentals and it makes about $20k/year.

I know hard life right?

My issue is; I just don't want to do it anymore because you know.. people in my property. The problem is it will be a significant hassle/work to remove the trailer (manufactured home) from my property.

Honestly the easiest thing is to keep renting and earning the money.

Its a hard life..:)

Ah. So it’s a 1%er problem. :-p

So let me ask this question then: are you a moral landlord? Do you charge fair prices for a relatively low cost place for someone to live? Are there many low cost housing alternatives in your area with landlords who treat their tenants better than you do?

Noblesse oblige FTW. Heh, heh, heh.

Yes I am. Several renters have told me I am the best LL they have ever had. Stuff gets fixed fast (I so it all myself) and I charge a little under the market rate.

I have heard numerous horror stories of landlords in town who want to make maximum income for minimum outlay.

In my view happy tenants are long term tenants and hopefully won't trash your house when they leave.

So you're a great landlord, you charge a fair price for rent, you provide a service that is desperately needed in most communities, and you're presumably making some coin in the process.  Doing public service and turning a buck in the process sounds like a win to me.   

Well, we old-timers already know what a swell guy Frank is. I'd be his tenant in a heartbeat. He and DH would stay out of HRH's and my hair all day. They'd be in that fantastic workshop, getting up to all kinds of amazing projects...that single wide would look like a palace in no time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 11, 2020, 06:55:37 PM

Aww shucks,

But really my aspirations are to be somebody elses great renter..:)

The landlord thing has been awesome, has definitely reduced my time to FIRE. Now in RE its become a mixed blessing. Sure the $$ provide about 35% of our living expenses, but you can never go halfway round the World without wondering whats going wrong back on the homestead. so you're never truly free.

In fact it feels a little like that thing called a J-O-B.. Albeit a VERY part time one..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on July 12, 2020, 07:05:17 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 10, 2020, 08:54:38 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 09, 2020, 05:19:57 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2020, 04:44:54 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 09, 2020, 01:38:12 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2020, 12:35:13 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 09, 2020, 11:16:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 08:46:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 08, 2020, 07:01:09 PM

@rmorris50 Good for you!

Heck you could even retire..:)

[Insert affectionate eye roll here.]

Retire would be nice! I actually like to be productive and busy, but I look forward to having it be totally on my terms and focus on what I want to! I do tend to get very lazy if I don't have structure/goals.

I wonder how much guilt I am going to have if hubby is working and I am just being a slacker all day (I say that in jest, kinda). But maybe I"ll get over it quickly!

Oh yeah you will..:)

I have found myself saying I should go back to real work for a rest.. He says having been busting his a** around our hobby farm/rental bus for the last month!

Haha, my husband says that all the time! Happily, his pension kicks in in less than a year and he's finally starting to make noises about retiring. Hooray!

Oooh yes pensions..We like those. Mine fully matures in 1 year and 13 months, although I could take it now for a reduced payout.

Needless to say if the renter in the god awful trailer doesn't sign up at the end of her lease next year I would not be exactly heartbroken..:)

What’s the story about the trailer (for those of us who haven’t been following)?

Oh and pensions are very, very nice.

Oh, mainly me just whining abut here I am this rich (or so I thought till I saw Herbert Derp's numbers..:)..) guy and I have these two rental businesses that make a fairly significant income and I really don't want to do it anymore.

The problem is the rentals are on my property and one of them is a single wide trailer. I spend about 2 or 3 days per year maintaining/repairing the rentals and it makes about $20k/year.

I know hard life right?

My issue is; I just don't want to do it anymore because you know.. people in my property. The problem is it will be a significant hassle/work to remove the trailer (manufactured home) from my property.

Honestly the easiest thing is to keep renting and earning the money.

Its a hard life..:)

You know - this is what my grandparents did and it made them ALOT of money, but they always had a bit of trouble with the tenants because it was a cheapie trailer and not the newest trailer at that.  As long as you keep renting, and as long as they aren't druggie tenants, it's probably the easier route to just keep renting. I kind of regret not doing the landlord route myself.  I think we'd have made more $, but DH doesn't like the idea of being a property manager.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 12, 2020, 11:46:29 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

I've got five more weeks left of work!!

Checked on the net worth today. $3M total. $2.9M without the house. That includes $62k in kids 529s though. And $30k that we are still planning to spend on a new car for DH. I'm not sure what he's waiting for on that. Guess he's just trying to get every last mile out of old the old Accord.

Your house is worth only $100k?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 12, 2020, 11:58:57 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 10, 2020, 12:39:47 PM

Quote from: Pennycounter on July 10, 2020, 12:02:38 PM

$65k in 1991 is a lot for your first job! I was making 20,000 less 10+ years later, in my first job out of college.

I didn't crack six figure income until 7 or 8 years ago.

I had just completed my PhD and this was a research position in a big tech company. You're right, $65k did feel like a lot. However, the five years prior to starting work, I lived on a poverty-level grad student stipend of $9k per year :-)

I finished my Ph.D. in 1997 and my postdoc job was paying me $40K in 1997. My first teaching job in 1998 paid me exactly $65K and I still have it today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 12, 2020, 12:31:56 PM

Quote from: couponvan on July 12, 2020, 07:05:17 AM

You know - this is what my grandparents did and it made them ALOT of money, but they always had a bit of trouble with the tenants because it was a cheapie trailer and not the newest trailer at that.  As long as you keep renting, and as long as they aren't druggie tenants, it's probably the easier route to just keep renting. I kind of regret not doing the landlord route myself.  I think we'd have made more $, but DH doesn't like the idea of being a property manager.

Hence the dilemma! Its a high ROI business (especially as I paid for the rentals with cash) and its hard/expensive to get out of it when its on the same piece of property as your house. So why would you do anything different?

The compromise I think we have come up with is when the current renter leaves we'll be done. If that happens in the next 5 years I'll try to sell the trailer (give it away) for someone to haul off.

If the renter leaves in say 10 years I might get three dumpsters, rent a large excavator and smash it up for landfill. Its a bit too nice to do that now..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 12, 2020, 12:50:24 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 12, 2020, 12:31:56 PM

Quote from: couponvan on July 12, 2020, 07:05:17 AM

You know - this is what my grandparents did and it made them ALOT of money, but they always had a bit of trouble with the tenants because it was a cheapie trailer and not the newest trailer at that.  As long as you keep renting, and as long as they aren't druggie tenants, it's probably the easier route to just keep renting. I kind of regret not doing the landlord route myself.  I think we'd have made more $, but DH doesn't like the idea of being a property manager.

Hence the dilemma! Its a high ROI business (especially as I paid for the rentals with cash) and its hard/expensive to get out of it when its on the same piece of property as your house. So why would you do anything different?

The compromise I think we have come up with is when the current renter leaves we'll be done. If that happens in the next 5 years I'll try to sell the trailer (give it away) for someone to haul off.

If the renter leaves in say 10 years I might get three dumpsters, rent a large excavator and smash it up for landfill. Its a bit too nice to do that now..:)

Maybe you could get a 5 gallon pail of Flex Seal and convert it into a DIY ghetto houseboat!  ;)  Is there a lake or river nearby?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 12, 2020, 03:57:14 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 12, 2020, 11:46:29 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

I've got five more weeks left of work!!

Checked on the net worth today. $3M total. $2.9M without the house. That includes $62k in kids 529s though. And $30k that we are still planning to spend on a new car for DH. I'm not sure what he's waiting for on that. Guess he's just trying to get every last mile out of old the old Accord.

Your house is worth only $100k?

That’s our equity in the house (conservatively) we owe $180k on it. It might actually be worth as much as $330k based on most recent neighborhood sales. Hey, the Midwest is cheap! We’ve got about 3,000 square feet plus finished basement for that price!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 13, 2020, 06:23:53 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 12, 2020, 03:57:14 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 12, 2020, 11:46:29 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

I've got five more weeks left of work!!

Checked on the net worth today. $3M total. $2.9M without the house. That includes $62k in kids 529s though. And $30k that we are still planning to spend on a new car for DH. I'm not sure what he's waiting for on that. Guess he's just trying to get every last mile out of old the old Accord.

Your house is worth only $100k?

That’s our equity in the house (conservatively) we owe $180k on it. It might actually be worth as much as $330k based on most recent neighborhood sales. Hey, the Midwest is cheap! We’ve got about 3,000 square feet plus finished basement for that price!

It's amazing how much disparity therenis in home prices.  Wenpaid $58 dollars a square foot in Florida.  When I look ip historical prices many are sub 50 dollars a square foot in the last 10,years.  Sure the beachfrint costs more.   Were about 15 minutes from the gulf in a country club.   Plenty of homes for sale, come on down.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 13, 2020, 07:00:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 13, 2020, 06:23:53 AM

It's amazing how much disparity therenis in home prices.  Wenpaid $58 dollars a square foot in Florida.  When I look ip historical prices many are sub 50 dollars a square foot in the last 10,years.  Sure the beachfrint costs more.   Were about 15 minutes from the gulf in a country club.   Plenty of homes for sale, come on down.

You might find a better deal if you make an offer on a slightly used trailer in Oregon noted a couple posts above.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 13, 2020, 09:29:08 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 13, 2020, 07:00:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 13, 2020, 06:23:53 AM

It's amazing how much disparity therenis in home prices.  Wenpaid $58 dollars a square foot in Florida.  When I look ip historical prices many are sub 50 dollars a square foot in the last 10,years.  Sure the beachfrint costs more.   Were about 15 minutes from the gulf in a country club.   Plenty of homes for sale, come on down.

You might find a better deal if you make an offer on a slightly used trailer in Oregon noted a couple posts above.

But you have to take it home with you..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 13, 2020, 10:22:50 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 11, 2020, 03:04:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

I've got five more weeks left of work!!
This past week I started to feel very at peace with my decision to leave. I think I'm actually ready. It feels great.

Checked on the net worth today. $3M total. $2.9M without the house. That includes $62k in kids 529s though. And $30k that we are still planning to spend on a new car for DH. I'm not sure what he's waiting for on that. Guess he's just trying to get every last mile out of old the old Accord.

As I was checking on NW, I realized that when we hit $4.3M a 3% draw down will bring us $130k a year which is exactly what we bring home (net of taxes and retirement etc, $240k gross) right now with both of us working and it is more than enough for all the things. Including crazy tuition. That's nuts. So unless we have another crazy drop or a few years of really stagnant returns, we should hit $4.3M relatively easy. Not that we really need, or even want to do that, I just predict it will happen.
At that realization made me really glad I put in my notice. I do not want to look back and have too much money but feeling like I didn't have enough time to do the things I want, with the people I want.
Life is good, and kind of unbelievable.

Congrats, what a huge achievement. I'm curious if you've done a cash flow projection for rest of your life? Have others on this board? I've never trusted withdrawal rules and NW measurements, and the cash flow projections have been the most useful in making retirement decisions.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly when you say cash flow projection. We don't have a business or rental property so investments is it. When we calculated our NW for FIRE we do not include the value of our house, HSA or kids college funds.
I assume that we can draw down 3% each year. We'll take that from cash but each year. All of our dividends are going to cash now and we'll sell to rebalance and replenish cash as we need to.
Why do you not trust withdrawl rules and NW measurements?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 13, 2020, 04:44:26 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on July 08, 2020, 02:37:50 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 08, 2020, 12:58:30 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 06, 2020, 07:46:06 PM

Hi Everyone - lurker of this thread here, who, thanks to this crazy market, is back up to $2.3m NW at the ripe young age of 46 (and spouse 51).

I have retirementitis (really bad),but for many personal reasons gotta keep work for another 3 years. Got get into the new house being built, see hubby through getting his doctorate in nursing (graduates May 2022), get through Covid...  AAAAHHHHHHHH.

Hopefully reading about all your situations and adventures keeps me sane!

This is a tantalizing post. You're almost ready to RE, but DH is just about to begin a new career or significantly build on an existing one? Please, @rmorris50, share more details.
BTW, by the time my DH retires, I will have been FIRE for at least eight years, so I know it's doable. Just wondering what your plans are.

getting a doctorate in nursing at 51 w/ $2M+ in the bank?  I am quite sure I have never had whatever drive that takes.....

That's because you have Much Fishing to Do!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 13, 2020, 04:56:21 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 13, 2020, 07:00:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 13, 2020, 06:23:53 AM

It's amazing how much disparity therenis in home prices.  Wenpaid $58 dollars a square foot in Florida.  When I look ip historical prices many are sub 50 dollars a square foot in the last 10,years.  Sure the beachfrint costs more.   Were about 15 minutes from the gulf in a country club.   Plenty of homes for sale, come on down.

You might find a better deal if you make an offer on a slightly used trailer in Oregon noted a couple posts above.

You could actually sell the trailer if someone can split the two halves and load it on a truck.   That's assuming it's a doublewide.   Then you'll make a couple of bucks and also save the landfill. 

Our income is nearly all rentals now.   Like exflyboy, it's hardly any work in the year by year tally,  just a few hours or days per unit if they are occupied and nothing bad happens.  But you never know when someone will need a quick repair to be done. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on July 14, 2020, 01:38:30 PM

Quote from: fireforfun on July 13, 2020, 06:58:08 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 10, 2020, 05:03:25 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 02, 2020, 06:58:05 PM

More insane today, apparently. At this rate, I'll have $3MM by the end of the month... Stonks?

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70

Past $3MM now! Now, onwards to $4MM?

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70
07/10/2020: $3,098,138.96

You made almost my entire life savings in a week.... and looking at Tesla this morning, will probably do it again this week.
I am torn between jealousy, and idol-ism. I would never have the guts!!

don't feed the troll...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on July 15, 2020, 06:30:10 AM

As someone who only let my hubby put $25K in Tesla last year at the low, I am kicking myself because we could have funded the rest of college with that money. At least it was with his Roth account! Go HD....and let me know when it’s time to hop off the Tesla train. You rock.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 15, 2020, 07:04:57 AM

Quote from: fireforfun on July 15, 2020, 04:45:38 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on July 14, 2020, 01:38:30 PM

Quote from: fireforfun on July 13, 2020, 06:58:08 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 10, 2020, 05:03:25 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 02, 2020, 06:58:05 PM

More insane today, apparently. At this rate, I'll have $3MM by the end of the month... Stonks?

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70

Past $3MM now! Now, onwards to $4MM?

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70
07/10/2020: $3,098,138.96

You made almost my entire life savings in a week.... and looking at Tesla this morning, will probably do it again this week.
I am torn between jealousy, and idol-ism. I would never have the guts!!

don't feed the troll...

You must be new to the forum if you think @Herbert Derp is a troll. I think he is pretty legendary on this forum.
If you are implying I am a troll for encouraging him and drooling over his gains in envy. I think you misunderstand what troll means

Wait! You're lurking on a thread you admittedly don't have a ticket for and you're calling one of our esteemed members a troll? Off with your head, @fireforfun!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 15, 2020, 07:22:59 AM

Quote from: couponvan on July 15, 2020, 06:30:10 AM

As someone who only let my hubby put $25K in Tesla last year at the low, I am kicking myself because we could have funded the rest of college with that money. At least it was with his Roth account! Go HD....and let me know when it’s time to hop off the Tesla train. You rock.

It's quite easy to look back and pick winners.  Had Tesla investors called in the debt and the stock tanked to pennies, it would have become a bad move to throw $25k away.  None of us know where any stock is going. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on July 15, 2020, 07:36:26 AM

Quote from: fireforfun on July 15, 2020, 07:31:38 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 15, 2020, 07:04:57 AM

Quote from: fireforfun on July 15, 2020, 04:45:38 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on July 14, 2020, 01:38:30 PM

Quote from: fireforfun on July 13, 2020, 06:58:08 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 10, 2020, 05:03:25 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 02, 2020, 06:58:05 PM

More insane today, apparently. At this rate, I'll have $3MM by the end of the month... Stonks?

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70

Past $3MM now! Now, onwards to $4MM?

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70
07/10/2020: $3,098,138.96

You made almost my entire life savings in a week.... and looking at Tesla this morning, will probably do it again this week.
I am torn between jealousy, and idol-ism. I would never have the guts!!

don't feed the troll...

You must be new to the forum if you think @Herbert Derp is a troll. I think he is pretty legendary on this forum.
If you are implying I am a troll for encouraging him and drooling over his gains in envy. I think you misunderstand what troll means

Wait! You're lurking on a thread you admittedly don't have a ticket for and you're calling one of our esteemed members a troll? Off with your head, @fireforfun!

Incorrect, I didn't call anyone a troll (see above). You are right, I don't belong. I wont post here again.

@fireforfun @Dicey has a spicy sense of humor....she's kidding. :-) all are welcome. We all drool over HD's quick rise. If DH and I had stopped shopping (even with coupons), we'd probably have been in this club many moons ago.  As is, we just ticked over that spot ourselves.

How are you supposed to learn to get to this race if you don't read about people who are in it?  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 15, 2020, 07:59:03 AM

Oh, shit. When I read in bed on my tablet (which is often, 'cuz FIRE + L-a-z-y = Dicey), I have to expand the text to where I can't see who is the author. I now see I attributed the troll comment to the wrong person. Very sorry about that @fireforfun. Now, where is that @wannabe-stash person?

Okay, seriously, anyone is free to lurk here. What I was objecting to was someone, ANYone, implying that our dear @Herbert Derp is a troll, especially on this thread. Sorry I got the details wrong.

And @couponvan, thanks! I was not even attempting to be funny. Apparently this is a clear case of Ready, Fire, Aim. Or should that be Ready, FIRE, Aim?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on July 15, 2020, 10:24:45 AM

And this exchange is why I like this thread so much!  Everyone is so thoughtful.  Maybe it's because we've all made it and don't feel like we have something to provide to anyone else?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on July 15, 2020, 11:25:15 AM

Thanks guys for the support! I didn't realize how notorious I've become around here lol

@wannabe-stache, I'll take it as a compliment that you think I must be trolling!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 15, 2020, 11:34:56 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 15, 2020, 11:25:15 AM

Thanks guys for the support! I didn't realize how notorious I've become around here lol

@wannabe-stache, I'll take it as a compliment that you think I must be trolling!

Well the fact you have made it here at such a young age, plus the fact your NW is still increasing at an incredible rate (while most of us "index funders" are still down a little from the Feb peak).. Yeah you're pretty notorious..:)

Its also freaking awesome!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 15, 2020, 02:27:33 PM

Hopefully @fireforfun will realize it's a case of mistaken identity.  Herbert Derp is an inspiration. 

As for me, I'm waiting with bated breath to see if I'll get a cash out refi to buy a fun vacation home/beach house.   We were debt free for about 3 months when I paid off the last mortgage earlier this year.   With our weird, non paycheck income and the fact that I bought more (cash flowing!) houses since I began the loan process, I'm a wee bit worried that they will view our application askance.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on July 15, 2020, 02:28:16 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 15, 2020, 11:34:56 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 15, 2020, 11:25:15 AM

Thanks guys for the support! I didn't realize how notorious I've become around here lol

@wannabe-stache, I'll take it as a compliment that you think I must be trolling!

Well the fact you have made it here at such a young age, plus the fact your NW is still increasing at an incredible rate (while most of us "index funders" are still down a little from the Feb peak).. Yeah you're pretty notorious..:)

Its also freaking awesome!

I was basing the troll comment on the post history.  Something about "sold all equities at the top" (literally i think he claims to have sold exactly on 2/19).  then reading his "trading strategy" and something about it being "multiplicative".  even if there is truth to his story, most of those "it's so easy, i can't lose money" stories don't end well.  i would recommend caution in investing strategies.

in other news, the rise of the markets and a large non recurring bonus took us over $5mm yesterday for the first time.  the only thing that sounds crazier is that i'm 100% convinced it isn't enough (just had a new baby join the family 3 weeks ago).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on July 15, 2020, 02:32:40 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on July 15, 2020, 02:28:16 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 15, 2020, 11:34:56 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 15, 2020, 11:25:15 AM

Thanks guys for the support! I didn't realize how notorious I've become around here lol

@wannabe-stache, I'll take it as a compliment that you think I must be trolling!

Well the fact you have made it here at such a young age, plus the fact your NW is still increasing at an incredible rate (while most of us "index funders" are still down a little from the Feb peak).. Yeah you're pretty notorious..:)

Its also freaking awesome!

I was basing the troll comment on the post history.  Something about "sold all equities at the top" (literally i think he claims to have sold exactly on 2/19).  then reading his "trading strategy" and something about it being "multiplicative".  even if there is truth to his story, most of those "it's so easy, i can't lose money" stories don't end well.  i would recommend caution in investing strategies.

in other news, the rise of the markets and a large non recurring bonus took us over $5mm yesterday for the first time.  the only thing that sounds crazier is that i'm 100% convinced it isn't enough (just had a new baby join the family 3 weeks ago).

It's possible $5MM isn't enough. It all depends on how much you spend. LOL LOL LOL. It's where I'd feel comfortable having either spouse stay home with the kiddos for a bit for sure if that's what I wanted to do.  And if I didn't want to do that, it's enough where you can hire a nighttime nanny for some sleep for a few months.  (I didn't know that was even a thing until I met some attorney moms.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 15, 2020, 03:29:52 PM

I think if I had $5M I'd be looking at ways to extend my life to about 120 years...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 15, 2020, 06:15:34 PM

If I had $5M, I would do a lot of crazy things, that do not include working.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 15, 2020, 06:56:27 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 15, 2020, 11:25:15 AM

Thanks guys for the support! I didn't realize how notorious I've become around here lol

I didn't know you were notorious either, I just reply to some of your comments on this thread, since you're one of us.  But one thing I'd love to hear more about are your plans!  A young Mustachian with extra money can be a wonderful thing...  I had awesome plans in my 20's and ended up doing totally different things in my 30's, all backstopped by having some healthy FU/FI money.  Life is still good, no regrets, even though I did spend a fair bit and paid a whole lotta' taxes along the way.  Turns out I coulda' spent a whole lot more!  But I didn't know and it turned out that I'm just not that guy anyway, I've even lived a $3M house (rented) traveling on business class flights (all paid by my company) as an expat, but it felt fake and hollow in retrospect.  My current, 'normal' lifestyle will allow me to do more travel and philanthropy later in life which is also a more fulfilling feeling of purpose and connection vs. empty, lavish consumption that is fleeting and superficial.  The hedonistic treadmill is definitely a thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 16, 2020, 07:21:08 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on July 15, 2020, 02:28:16 PM

in other news, the rise of the markets and a large non recurring bonus took us over $5mm yesterday for the first time.  the only thing that sounds crazier is that i'm 100% convinced it isn't enough (just had a new baby join the family 3 weeks ago).

I can completely understand the apprehension with unknown, scary costs ahead.  Younguns are going to cry about how much they're paying for child care (I mean young parents) and I lean back in my chair and chuckle, knowing that college costs make those look like mouse nuts.

While my older son was in high school, I put together my investments spread sheet and my first number I ever even looked at was $1.56M.  I showed it to my wife and asked what she thought we'd need to retire.  With 2 kids and college upcoming, she simply responded "We have college to pay for".  I wanted to gauge, so asked her "If we had $10M, do you think we could retire?".  Her response: "We have college to pay for".  "How about $100M?".  "We have college to pay for".  "What if we had $100 Billion?".  "We have college to pay for".  So I can fully understand being cautious with a new baby.  They can be very expensive.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on July 16, 2020, 08:07:08 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 16, 2020, 07:21:08 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on July 15, 2020, 02:28:16 PM

in other news, the rise of the markets and a large non recurring bonus took us over $5mm yesterday for the first time.  the only thing that sounds crazier is that i'm 100% convinced it isn't enough (just had a new baby join the family 3 weeks ago).

I can completely understand the apprehension with unknown, scary costs ahead.  Younguns are going to cry about how much they're paying for child care (I mean young parents) and I lean back in my chair and chuckle, knowing that college costs make those look like mouse nuts.

While my older son was in high school, I put together my investments spread sheet and my first number I ever even looked at was $1.56M.  I showed it to my wife and asked what she thought we'd need to retire.  With 2 kids and college upcoming, she simply responded "We have college to pay for".  I wanted to gauge, so asked her "If we had $10M, do you think we could retire?".  Her response: "We have college to pay for".  "How about $100M?".  "We have college to pay for".  "What if we had $100 Billion?".  "We have college to pay for".  So I can fully understand being cautious with a new baby.  They can be very expensive.

Maybe buy the 529 plan or if your state has a prepaid plan, fully fund that and then ask if you can retire?  Although I swear there are still additional kid costs after college. Weddings, what if they hit a road bump and you want to be able to help them, etc. and that is where OMY TMY comes in. At some point it usually is enough, or you're like Warren Buffett and just enjoy the working.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 16, 2020, 08:43:36 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 16, 2020, 07:21:08 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on July 15, 2020, 02:28:16 PM

in other news, the rise of the markets and a large non recurring bonus took us over $5mm yesterday for the first time.  the only thing that sounds crazier is that i'm 100% convinced it isn't enough (just had a new baby join the family 3 weeks ago).

I can completely understand the apprehension with unknown, scary costs ahead.  Younguns are going to cry about how much they're paying for child care (I mean young parents) and I lean back in my chair and chuckle, knowing that college costs make those look like mouse nuts.

While my older son was in high school, I put together my investments spread sheet and my first number I ever even looked at was $1.56M.  I showed it to my wife and asked what she thought we'd need to retire.  With 2 kids and college upcoming, she simply responded "We have college to pay for".  I wanted to gauge, so asked her "If we had $10M, do you think we could retire?".  Her response: "We have college to pay for".  "How about $100M?".  "We have college to pay for".  "What if we had $100 Billion?".  "We have college to pay for".  So I can fully understand being cautious with a new baby.  They can be very expensive.

I think it might be time to fire the pool boy.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 16, 2020, 10:11:40 AM

Quote from: couponvan on July 16, 2020, 08:07:08 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 16, 2020, 07:21:08 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on July 15, 2020, 02:28:16 PM

in other news, the rise of the markets and a large non recurring bonus took us over $5mm yesterday for the first time.  the only thing that sounds crazier is that i'm 100% convinced it isn't enough (just had a new baby join the family 3 weeks ago).

I can completely understand the apprehension with unknown, scary costs ahead.  Younguns are going to cry about how much they're paying for child care (I mean young parents) and I lean back in my chair and chuckle, knowing that college costs make those look like mouse nuts.

While my older son was in high school, I put together my investments spread sheet and my first number I ever even looked at was $1.56M.  I showed it to my wife and asked what she thought we'd need to retire.  With 2 kids and college upcoming, she simply responded "We have college to pay for".  I wanted to gauge, so asked her "If we had $10M, do you think we could retire?".  Her response: "We have college to pay for".  "How about $100M?".  "We have college to pay for".  "What if we had $100 Billion?".  "We have college to pay for".  So I can fully understand being cautious with a new baby.  They can be very expensive.

Maybe buy the 529 plan or if your state has a prepaid plan, fully fund that and then ask if you can retire?  Although I swear there are still additional kid costs after college. Weddings, what if they hit a road bump and you want to be able to help them, etc. and that is where OMY TMY comes in. At some point it usually is enough, or you're like Warren Buffett and just enjoy the working.

Dittoes on the 529 plan, but not the prepaid plans which often suck.  This is an area where state tax deductions/ credits really matter. You can often carry those forward if you want to just throw a wad of cash at and be done.

Contributing to 529 plans are about the best instant return you can get on an investment in my state.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on July 16, 2020, 11:54:50 AM

As our net worth drops due to a planned home remodel/update, I have to remind myself that all is well, we planned for this, and we will see an increase in our home's property value well beyond what we're investing. It's still hard to spend a bunch of money, even when I look at our net worth & reassure myself that 1) we can afford it 2) it would take a whole heck of a lot for us to be in terrible shape, and we have multiple "outs", should that ever happen.

I know I need to get more comfortable with spending, as well as the concept of "enough". It's hard. My inner bag lady gets pretty nervous.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 17, 2020, 12:19:00 PM

I can always find ways to spend more money. Even in this group, I just feel that I do not have enough money. Maybe I will feel better when I graduate from this group.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 17, 2020, 12:31:16 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 17, 2020, 12:19:00 PM

I can always find ways to spend more money. Even in this group, I just feel that I do not have enough money. Maybe I will feel better when I graduate from this group.

The only way to "graduate" from this group, the "Race from $2M to $4M ... and Beyond!" is to go to the Great Beyond.    And there you won't have any money 'cause you can't take it with you! :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 17, 2020, 01:31:20 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 17, 2020, 12:19:00 PM

I can always find ways to spend more money. Even in this group, I just feel that I do not have enough money. Maybe I will feel better when I graduate from this group.

You probably won't, but you're good for the economy. 


So, what are you shopping for at the moment?  We'll help you shop.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 17, 2020, 04:45:05 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 13, 2020, 10:22:50 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 11, 2020, 03:04:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

I've got five more weeks left of work!!
This past week I started to feel very at peace with my decision to leave. I think I'm actually ready. It feels great.

Checked on the net worth today. $3M total. $2.9M without the house. That includes $62k in kids 529s though. And $30k that we are still planning to spend on a new car for DH. I'm not sure what he's waiting for on that. Guess he's just trying to get every last mile out of old the old Accord.

As I was checking on NW, I realized that when we hit $4.3M a 3% draw down will bring us $130k a year which is exactly what we bring home (net of taxes and retirement etc, $240k gross) right now with both of us working and it is more than enough for all the things. Including crazy tuition. That's nuts. So unless we have another crazy drop or a few years of really stagnant returns, we should hit $4.3M relatively easy. Not that we really need, or even want to do that, I just predict it will happen.
At that realization made me really glad I put in my notice. I do not want to look back and have too much money but feeling like I didn't have enough time to do the things I want, with the people I want.
Life is good, and kind of unbelievable.

Congrats, what a huge achievement. I'm curious if you've done a cash flow projection for rest of your life? Have others on this board? I've never trusted withdrawal rules and NW measurements, and the cash flow projections have been the most useful in making retirement decisions.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly when you say cash flow projection. We don't have a business or rental property so investments is it. When we calculated our NW for FIRE we do not include the value of our house, HSA or kids college funds.
I assume that we can draw down 3% each year. We'll take that from cash but each year. All of our dividends are going to cash now and we'll sell to rebalance and replenish cash as we need to.
Why do you not trust withdrawl rules and NW measurements?

@BeanCounter NW isn't a good indicator of cash flow, like you alluded to. My net worth could be millions but if it's all tied up in my fine art collection, well, I am cash flow poor and have to eat cat food. Also, I could have cash flow like social security or alimony, but that doesn't get included in my net worth because I don't own it. My house I include in my NW (and no, I don't have any fine art!)

Tracking NW is a short cut way of seeing if you're ready for retirement, but I think it's better to project out all sources of income over the years, and house hold expenses and taxes. You can see what years you are "short" cash flow and what years you have excess as well. I think a shortcut way people do this projection is to look at liquid NW.
 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 17, 2020, 09:48:12 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 17, 2020, 12:31:16 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 17, 2020, 12:19:00 PM

I can always find ways to spend more money. Even in this group, I just feel that I do not have enough money. Maybe I will feel better when I graduate from this group.

The only way to "graduate" from this group, the "Race from $2M to $4M ... and Beyond!" is to go to the Great Beyond.    And there you won't have any money 'cause you can't take it with you! :)

This has been a reoccurring theme amongst us.  It's amazing that you (we, me) can have so much money and still wonder if it's enough.   I think we get comfortable with the buffer, and realize how uncomfortable it would be to have a smaller buffer.   If my net worth drops by half I'm still in great shape, but man, I would not be pleased.  I don't have an "Inner Bag Lady" like " @MaybeBabyMustache,  I have an "Inner Struggling Student."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 17, 2020, 09:49:42 PM

Lack of cash flow in retirement is why I'm kidding myself thinking we can retire at the end of the year.  The majority of our assets are in pretaxed retirement accounts.  2021 is looking like a work year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 17, 2020, 09:59:18 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 17, 2020, 09:48:12 PM

- SNIP -

This has been a reoccurring theme amongst us.  It's amazing that you (we, me) can have so much money and still wonder if it's enough.   I think we get comfortable with the buffer, and realize how uncomfortable it would be to have a smaller buffer.   If my net worth drops by half I'm still in great shape, but man, I would not be pleased.  I don't have an "Inner Bag Lady" like " @MaybeBabyMustache,  I have an "Inner Struggling Student."

Or no buffer at all. These are certainly not the best of economic times, but I don't think there are any times when you turn on some financial news show and they aren't saying the bottom will drop out around the next economic bend.  They make commission money when you sell.  They feed on your fear.

Old Ben said it best many years ago when he was talking about death and taxes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 17, 2020, 11:04:54 PM

I include my pension in my net worth and consider that I own it. I think of it as a long term receivable.

If I die my DW will be entitled to collect on the receivable.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 17, 2020, 11:13:00 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 17, 2020, 09:49:42 PM

Lack of cash flow in retirement is why I'm kidding myself thinking we can retire at the end of the year.  The majority of our assets are in pretaxed retirement accounts.  2021 is looking like a work year.

Uh, you're familiar with the tools here to access retirement accounts earlier, right?

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/11/11/how-much-is-too-much-in-your-401k/

I am 51, have been FIREd for 4 years now, am using strategy #2 in the above article (which is more commonly called a Roth conversion ladder), and everything is working peachy.

In addition to the above strategies, there's also the "just pay the penalty" strategy, and the 401(k) separation at 55 exception.

(If you're being ironic or were using sarcasm font, my apologies.  I miss that sometimes.  I'm new here; please let me stay! ;-) )

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 17, 2020, 11:21:37 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 17, 2020, 11:13:00 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 17, 2020, 09:49:42 PM

Lack of cash flow in retirement is why I'm kidding myself thinking we can retire at the end of the year.  The majority of our assets are in pretaxed retirement accounts.  2021 is looking like a work year.

Uh, you're familiar with the tools here to access retirement accounts earlier, right?

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/11/11/how-much-is-too-much-in-your-401k/

I am 51, have been FIREd for 4 years now, am using strategy #2 in the above article (which is more commonly called a Roth conversion ladder), and everything is working peachy.

In addition to the above strategies, there's also the "just pay the penalty" strategy, and the 401(k) separation at 55 exception.

(If you're being ironic or were using sarcasm font, my apologies.  I miss that sometimes.  I'm new here; please let me stay! ;-) )

Probably going to 55.  That's June 2023.  Should be another 500K to 750K of insulation by then.  Main reason is health care.   We're falling apart earlier than expected. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 17, 2020, 11:32:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 17, 2020, 11:21:37 PM

Probably going to 55.  That's June 2023.  Should be another 500K to 750K of insulation by then.  Main reason is health care.   We're falling apart earlier than expected.

I had more time to take care of my health after I FIREd.  Just sayin' ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 18, 2020, 05:17:59 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 17, 2020, 11:04:54 PM

I include my pension in my net worth and consider that I own it. I think of it as a long term receivable.

If I die my DW will be entitled to collect on the receivable.

I include my pension too because I can take the lump sum or annuitize it. I should retire once I get through ball this change in my life and my expenses settle. My cash flow projections show I should be willing to spend down my pre-tax retirement accounts between now, age 46 and 70, because social security, pension and Roth should be enough after 70. I have $1.5m in pre-tax now, but it’s trickier to access this early and it goes against all the retirement advice we have been fed. But if I keep working then I just end up on this pile of money I won’t spend and I just enrich all the nephews and nieces. I don’t mind leaving a little but I save it to escape MegaCorp USA! So I have a cash flow timing problem and I will need to grow the balls to tell our financial advisor I’m spending it now, haha!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 18, 2020, 05:58:22 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 17, 2020, 11:32:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 17, 2020, 11:21:37 PM

Probably going to 55.  That's June 2023.  Should be another 500K to 750K of insulation by then.  Main reason is health care.   We're falling apart earlier than expected.

I had more time to take care of my health after I FIREd.  Just sayin' ;)

We're going to require domestic assistance in our older years.  It's a catch 22.   Squandering away the good years working so that you can afford to pay for help in the later years.  It's nothing we did wrong.  It's just shit luck.  Some of my wife's issues are because she was an athlete.  Our son didn't ask to have cancer at 14.  I didn't try to become a diabetic.   We're smart enough to predict our personal disability to come.  That's a blessing and a curse.  Ignorance is bliss and knowledge can be a prison at times.  Our main weapon are our paychecks and portfolio.   Those three years can be the most powerful of our earning lives.  At 55 my wife and I are eligible for my company's retirement heath care.  If I quit, even if I rehire, I lose eligiblity.  Our new employees do not have the benift at retirement, nor my pension which is now investing at 12 percent of my salary.   I'm not seeking sympathy, we've got it pretty good.  I haven't been hospitalized since a child.  However I've spent more nights on a tiny hospital couch as a caregiver than I can count.   That kind of treatment doesn't come cheap.  Through furgality and persistence we still have managed to rise above most people financially.  It's not time to give up what's shielded us from the dragons yet.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 18, 2020, 06:42:14 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 17, 2020, 09:48:12 PM

This has been a reoccurring theme amongst us.  It's amazing that you (we, me) can have so much money and still wonder if it's enough.   I think we get comfortable with the buffer, and realize how uncomfortable it would be to have a smaller buffer.   If my net worth drops by half I'm still in great shape, but man, I would not be pleased.  I don't have an "Inner Bag Lady" like " @MaybeBabyMustache,  I have an "Inner Struggling Student."

Love your term! Thanks to this forum, I have managed to thoroughly squash my "inner struggling student" but my wife still thinks we are one step removed from the poverty line with several million in invested assets ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 07:08:22 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 18, 2020, 05:58:22 AM

We're going to require domestic assistance in our older years.  It's a catch 22.   Squandering away the good years working so that you can afford to pay for help in the later years.  It's nothing we did wrong.  It's just shit luck.  Some of my wife's issues are because she was an athlete.  Our son didn't ask to have cancer at 14.  I didn't try to become a diabetic.   We're smart enough to predict our personal disability to come.  That's a blessing and a curse.  Ignorance is bliss and knowledge can be a prison at times.  Our main weapon are our paychecks and portfolio.   Those three years can be the most powerful of our earning lives.  At 55 my wife and I are eligible for my company's retirement heath care.  If I quit, even if I rehire, I lose eligiblity.  Our new employees do not have the benift at retirement, nor my pension which is now investing at 12 percent of my salary.   I'm not seeking sympathy, we've got it pretty good.  I haven't been hospitalized since a child.  However I've spent more nights on a tiny hospital couch as a caregiver than I can count.   That kind of treatment doesn't come cheap.  Through furgality and persistence we still have managed to rise above most people financially.  It's not time to give up what's shielded us from the dragons yet.

Yup. They don’t call them golden handcuffs for nothing. Though in many people’s cases it’s the medical not the pension that keeps them in place. The handcuffs fall off late this year.But then a funny thing happens. You start enjoying your job a lot more than you have in recent history. The office space effect is for real!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on July 18, 2020, 08:56:00 AM

just popped in to say we hit $2.1 million in investable assets, and I have no one I can tell in real life.   We're in the coast part of our investment cycle, so 'only' ~$2K being invested monthly these days....Gosh, I remember a time when $2K was alot, geez, I'm old!  :-) We are in the process of having our dream home built, so our money is going there.   My 'number' for retirement has been $2 million, really $1.8 with a buffer, then Covid 19 hit and I watched our portfolio loose $300K, I can't believe is has come roaring back so quickly.   I had resigned myself to working longer.   I'm now leaning toward having a bigger buffer.   
Just wanted to say, life is good, happy to be here!   Happy that my biggest dilema is deciding how big a cash cushion I want heading into retirement.  That and what colour kayak to buy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 18, 2020, 10:56:51 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 17, 2020, 12:31:16 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 17, 2020, 12:19:00 PM

I can always find ways to spend more money. Even in this group, I just feel that I do not have enough money. Maybe I will feel better when I graduate from this group.

The only way to "graduate" from this group, the "Race from $2M to $4M ... and Beyond!" is to go to the Great Beyond.    And there you won't have any money 'cause you can't take it with you! :)

I was thinking to graduate from this group with a $4M portfolio.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on July 18, 2020, 10:58:58 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 18, 2020, 10:56:51 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 17, 2020, 12:31:16 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 17, 2020, 12:19:00 PM

I can always find ways to spend more money. Even in this group, I just feel that I do not have enough money. Maybe I will feel better when I graduate from this group.

The only way to "graduate" from this group, the "Race from $2M to $4M ... and Beyond!" is to go to the Great Beyond.    And there you won't have any money 'cause you can't take it with you! :)

I was thinking to graduate from this group with a $4M portfolio.

It is hard to graduate from "and beyond."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 18, 2020, 11:19:20 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 17, 2020, 04:45:05 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 13, 2020, 10:22:50 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 11, 2020, 03:04:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

I've got five more weeks left of work!!
This past week I started to feel very at peace with my decision to leave. I think I'm actually ready. It feels great.

Checked on the net worth today. $3M total. $2.9M without the house. That includes $62k in kids 529s though. And $30k that we are still planning to spend on a new car for DH. I'm not sure what he's waiting for on that. Guess he's just trying to get every last mile out of old the old Accord.

As I was checking on NW, I realized that when we hit $4.3M a 3% draw down will bring us $130k a year which is exactly what we bring home (net of taxes and retirement etc, $240k gross) right now with both of us working and it is more than enough for all the things. Including crazy tuition. That's nuts. So unless we have another crazy drop or a few years of really stagnant returns, we should hit $4.3M relatively easy. Not that we really need, or even want to do that, I just predict it will happen.
At that realization made me really glad I put in my notice. I do not want to look back and have too much money but feeling like I didn't have enough time to do the things I want, with the people I want.
Life is good, and kind of unbelievable.

Congrats, what a huge achievement. I'm curious if you've done a cash flow projection for rest of your life? Have others on this board? I've never trusted withdrawal rules and NW measurements, and the cash flow projections have been the most useful in making retirement decisions.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly when you say cash flow projection. We don't have a business or rental property so investments is it. When we calculated our NW for FIRE we do not include the value of our house, HSA or kids college funds.
I assume that we can draw down 3% each year. We'll take that from cash but each year. All of our dividends are going to cash now and we'll sell to rebalance and replenish cash as we need to.
Why do you not trust withdrawl rules and NW measurements?

@BeanCounter NW isn't a good indicator of cash flow, like you alluded to. My net worth could be millions but if it's all tied up in my fine art collection, well, I am cash flow poor and have to eat cat food. Also, I could have cash flow like social security or alimony, but that doesn't get included in my net worth because I don't own it. My house I include in my NW (and no, I don't have any fine art!)

Tracking NW is a short cut way of seeing if you're ready for retirement, but I think it's better to project out all sources of income over the years, and house hold expenses and taxes. You can see what years you are "short" cash flow and what years you have excess as well. I think a shortcut way people do this projection is to look at liquid NW.

I disagree. Your net worth is your net worth. Your drawdown strategy of the assets in your NW determines if you are ready to retire. Your drawdown strategy has to include things like liquidity, market returns and tax implications. Those things change from year to year so I think that’s why people use the 3% or 4% average. It’s not a “shortcut”.
I also don’t agree with the terminology of cash flow because other than dividends invested assets aren’t actually producing cash. If I had a business or rental property it would. But to convert invested assets to cash I have to sell them just like one would have to sell an art collection they are including in their net worth. One is just more liquid than the other. If a person is including their house, art collection, antique cars, or any other asset in their net worth its perfectly acceptable so long as they have a plan to convert that asset to cash as needed to fund their retirement.
Hopefully that makes sense.
Also, I don’t include SS in my plan because I don’t know what future changes could come to the system 27 years from now when we would become eligible. It’s just too far into the future.
Honestly at this point in the game we just worry about healthcare and unknown kid expenses because we’ve still got two other people we are responsible for.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 18, 2020, 11:28:13 AM

Quote from: ixtap on July 18, 2020, 10:58:58 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 18, 2020, 10:56:51 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 17, 2020, 12:31:16 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 17, 2020, 12:19:00 PM

I can always find ways to spend more money. Even in this group, I just feel that I do not have enough money. Maybe I will feel better when I graduate from this group.

The only way to "graduate" from this group, the "Race from $2M to $4M ... and Beyond!" is to go to the Great Beyond.    And there you won't have any money 'cause you can't take it with you! :)

I’m not sure I want to graduate from this group. This is the only place I’ve been able to come and say I have $3M and I’m not sure if that’s enough. Because nobody talks about their NW IRL, and if you did most people would laugh at you. Here, you all understand the anxiety of feeling it might not be enough, but also encourage each other to realize it probably is and you can’t plan for everything. I know pages ago I was strewing this and you all really pushed me to have more flexible thinking. And I needed that!

I was thinking to graduate from this group with a $4M portfolio.

It is hard to graduate from "and beyond."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 18, 2020, 11:37:48 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 18, 2020, 11:19:20 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 17, 2020, 04:45:05 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 13, 2020, 10:22:50 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 11, 2020, 03:04:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

I've got five more weeks left of work!!
This past week I started to feel very at peace with my decision to leave. I think I'm actually ready. It feels great.

Checked on the net worth today. $3M total. $2.9M without the house. That includes $62k in kids 529s though. And $30k that we are still planning to spend on a new car for DH. I'm not sure what he's waiting for on that. Guess he's just trying to get every last mile out of old the old Accord.

As I was checking on NW, I realized that when we hit $4.3M a 3% draw down will bring us $130k a year which is exactly what we bring home (net of taxes and retirement etc, $240k gross) right now with both of us working and it is more than enough for all the things. Including crazy tuition. That's nuts. So unless we have another crazy drop or a few years of really stagnant returns, we should hit $4.3M relatively easy. Not that we really need, or even want to do that, I just predict it will happen.
At that realization made me really glad I put in my notice. I do not want to look back and have too much money but feeling like I didn't have enough time to do the things I want, with the people I want.
Life is good, and kind of unbelievable.

Congrats, what a huge achievement. I'm curious if you've done a cash flow projection for rest of your life? Have others on this board? I've never trusted withdrawal rules and NW measurements, and the cash flow projections have been the most useful in making retirement decisions.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly when you say cash flow projection. We don't have a business or rental property so investments is it. When we calculated our NW for FIRE we do not include the value of our house, HSA or kids college funds.
I assume that we can draw down 3% each year. We'll take that from cash but each year. All of our dividends are going to cash now and we'll sell to rebalance and replenish cash as we need to.
Why do you not trust withdrawl rules and NW measurements?

@BeanCounter NW isn't a good indicator of cash flow, like you alluded to. My net worth could be millions but if it's all tied up in my fine art collection, well, I am cash flow poor and have to eat cat food. Also, I could have cash flow like social security or alimony, but that doesn't get included in my net worth because I don't own it. My house I include in my NW (and no, I don't have any fine art!)

Tracking NW is a short cut way of seeing if you're ready for retirement, but I think it's better to project out all sources of income over the years, and house hold expenses and taxes. You can see what years you are "short" cash flow and what years you have excess as well. I think a shortcut way people do this projection is to look at liquid NW.

I disagree. Your net worth is your net worth. Your drawdown strategy of the assets in your NW determines if you are ready to retire. Your drawdown strategy has to include things like liquidity, market returns and tax implications. Those things change from year to year so I think that’s why people use the 3% or 4% average. It’s not a “shortcut”.
I also don’t agree with the terminology of cash flow because other than dividends invested assets aren’t actually producing cash. If I had a business or rental property it would. But to convert invested assets to cash I have to sell them just like one would have to sell an art collection they are including in their net worth. One is just more liquid than the other. If a person is including their house, art collection, antique cars, or any other asset in their net worth its perfectly acceptable so long as they have a plan to convert that asset to cash as needed to fund their retirement.
Hopefully that makes sense.
Also, I don’t include SS in my plan because I don’t know what future changes could come to the system 27 years from now when we would become eligible. It’s just too far into the future.
Honestly at this point in the game we just worry about healthcare and unknown kid expenses because we’ve still got two other people we are responsible for.

NW is NW, right. And cash flow is cash flow. By cash flow I mean money coming into the house every year netted against money going out of the house every year. My NW may or may not be able to support the (timing of) cash needed coming into the house to support expenses going out of the house. So I meant household cash flow analysis. Your right my art collection can’t support my household cash flow unless I sell it. Could be fun to look at as I eat cat food tho.

I still think many people shortcut the household cash flow analysis by looking at NW or a modified version of NW like LNW.

And I do include projected SS in my household CF analysis, but at my own peril. Small risk of going away I think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 18, 2020, 11:46:25 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 18, 2020, 11:37:48 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 18, 2020, 11:19:20 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 17, 2020, 04:45:05 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 13, 2020, 10:22:50 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 11, 2020, 03:04:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

I've got five more weeks left of work!!
This past week I started to feel very at peace with my decision to leave. I think I'm actually ready. It feels great.

Checked on the net worth today. $3M total. $2.9M without the house. That includes $62k in kids 529s though. And $30k that we are still planning to spend on a new car for DH. I'm not sure what he's waiting for on that. Guess he's just trying to get every last mile out of old the old Accord.

As I was checking on NW, I realized that when we hit $4.3M a 3% draw down will bring us $130k a year which is exactly what we bring home (net of taxes and retirement etc, $240k gross) right now with both of us working and it is more than enough for all the things. Including crazy tuition. That's nuts. So unless we have another crazy drop or a few years of really stagnant returns, we should hit $4.3M relatively easy. Not that we really need, or even want to do that, I just predict it will happen.
At that realization made me really glad I put in my notice. I do not want to look back and have too much money but feeling like I didn't have enough time to do the things I want, with the people I want.
Life is good, and kind of unbelievable.

Congrats, what a huge achievement. I'm curious if you've done a cash flow projection for rest of your life? Have others on this board? I've never trusted withdrawal rules and NW measurements, and the cash flow projections have been the most useful in making retirement decisions.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly when you say cash flow projection. We don't have a business or rental property so investments is it. When we calculated our NW for FIRE we do not include the value of our house, HSA or kids college funds.
I assume that we can draw down 3% each year. We'll take that from cash but each year. All of our dividends are going to cash now and we'll sell to rebalance and replenish cash as we need to.
Why do you not trust withdrawl rules and NW measurements?

@BeanCounter NW isn't a good indicator of cash flow, like you alluded to. My net worth could be millions but if it's all tied up in my fine art collection, well, I am cash flow poor and have to eat cat food. Also, I could have cash flow like social security or alimony, but that doesn't get included in my net worth because I don't own it. My house I include in my NW (and no, I don't have any fine art!)

Tracking NW is a short cut way of seeing if you're ready for retirement, but I think it's better to project out all sources of income over the years, and house hold expenses and taxes. You can see what years you are "short" cash flow and what years you have excess as well. I think a shortcut way people do this projection is to look at liquid NW.

I disagree. Your net worth is your net worth. Your drawdown strategy of the assets in your NW determines if you are ready to retire. Your drawdown strategy has to include things like liquidity, market returns and tax implications. Those things change from year to year so I think that’s why people use the 3% or 4% average. It’s not a “shortcut”.
I also don’t agree with the terminology of cash flow because other than dividends invested assets aren’t actually producing cash. If I had a business or rental property it would. But to convert invested assets to cash I have to sell them just like one would have to sell an art collection they are including in their net worth. One is just more liquid than the other. If a person is including their house, art collection, antique cars, or any other asset in their net worth its perfectly acceptable so long as they have a plan to convert that asset to cash as needed to fund their retirement.
Hopefully that makes sense.
Also, I don’t include SS in my plan because I don’t know what future changes could come to the system 27 years from now when we would become eligible. It’s just too far into the future.
Honestly at this point in the game we just worry about healthcare and unknown kid expenses because we’ve still got two other people we are responsible for.

NW is NW, right. And cash flow is cash flow. By cash flow I mean money coming into the house every year netted against money going out of the house every year. My NW may or may not be able to support the (timing of) cash needed coming into the house to support expenses going out of the house. So I meant household cash flow analysis. Your right my art collection can’t support my household cash flow unless I sell it. Could be fun to look at as I eat cat food tho.

I still think many people shortcut the household cash flow analysis by looking at NW or a modified version of NW like LNW.

And I do include projected SS in my household CF analysis, but at my own peril. Small risk of going away I think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe this is just semantics, but if you don’t have a pension, or a business, or rental property, you don’t actually have cash coming in once you stop working. This would be the case for us. I HAVE to sell assets to create cash flow. My NW are those assets. If I’m not looking at the value of all of those and how I’ll sell them to fund retirement then I’m shortchanging myself.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 18, 2020, 11:57:30 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 18, 2020, 11:46:25 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 18, 2020, 11:37:48 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 18, 2020, 11:19:20 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 17, 2020, 04:45:05 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 13, 2020, 10:22:50 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 11, 2020, 03:04:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

I've got five more weeks left of work!!
This past week I started to feel very at peace with my decision to leave. I think I'm actually ready. It feels great.

Checked on the net worth today. $3M total. $2.9M without the house. That includes $62k in kids 529s though. And $30k that we are still planning to spend on a new car for DH. I'm not sure what he's waiting for on that. Guess he's just trying to get every last mile out of old the old Accord.

As I was checking on NW, I realized that when we hit $4.3M a 3% draw down will bring us $130k a year which is exactly what we bring home (net of taxes and retirement etc, $240k gross) right now with both of us working and it is more than enough for all the things. Including crazy tuition. That's nuts. So unless we have another crazy drop or a few years of really stagnant returns, we should hit $4.3M relatively easy. Not that we really need, or even want to do that, I just predict it will happen.
At that realization made me really glad I put in my notice. I do not want to look back and have too much money but feeling like I didn't have enough time to do the things I want, with the people I want.
Life is good, and kind of unbelievable.

Congrats, what a huge achievement. I'm curious if you've done a cash flow projection for rest of your life? Have others on this board? I've never trusted withdrawal rules and NW measurements, and the cash flow projections have been the most useful in making retirement decisions.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly when you say cash flow projection. We don't have a business or rental property so investments is it. When we calculated our NW for FIRE we do not include the value of our house, HSA or kids college funds.
I assume that we can draw down 3% each year. We'll take that from cash but each year. All of our dividends are going to cash now and we'll sell to rebalance and replenish cash as we need to.
Why do you not trust withdrawl rules and NW measurements?

@BeanCounter NW isn't a good indicator of cash flow, like you alluded to. My net worth could be millions but if it's all tied up in my fine art collection, well, I am cash flow poor and have to eat cat food. Also, I could have cash flow like social security or alimony, but that doesn't get included in my net worth because I don't own it. My house I include in my NW (and no, I don't have any fine art!)

Tracking NW is a short cut way of seeing if you're ready for retirement, but I think it's better to project out all sources of income over the years, and house hold expenses and taxes. You can see what years you are "short" cash flow and what years you have excess as well. I think a shortcut way people do this projection is to look at liquid NW.

I disagree. Your net worth is your net worth. Your drawdown strategy of the assets in your NW determines if you are ready to retire. Your drawdown strategy has to include things like liquidity, market returns and tax implications. Those things change from year to year so I think that’s why people use the 3% or 4% average. It’s not a “shortcut”.
I also don’t agree with the terminology of cash flow because other than dividends invested assets aren’t actually producing cash. If I had a business or rental property it would. But to convert invested assets to cash I have to sell them just like one would have to sell an art collection they are including in their net worth. One is just more liquid than the other. If a person is including their house, art collection, antique cars, or any other asset in their net worth its perfectly acceptable so long as they have a plan to convert that asset to cash as needed to fund their retirement.
Hopefully that makes sense.
Also, I don’t include SS in my plan because I don’t know what future changes could come to the system 27 years from now when we would become eligible. It’s just too far into the future.
Honestly at this point in the game we just worry about healthcare and unknown kid expenses because we’ve still got two other people we are responsible for.

NW is NW, right. And cash flow is cash flow. By cash flow I mean money coming into the house every year netted against money going out of the house every year. My NW may or may not be able to support the (timing of) cash needed coming into the house to support expenses going out of the house. So I meant household cash flow analysis. Your right my art collection can’t support my household cash flow unless I sell it. Could be fun to look at as I eat cat food tho.

I still think many people shortcut the household cash flow analysis by looking at NW or a modified version of NW like LNW.

And I do include projected SS in my household CF analysis, but at my own peril. Small risk of going away I think.


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Maybe this is just semantics, but if you don’t have a pension, or a business, or rental property, you don’t actually have cash coming in once you stop working. This would be the case for us. I HAVE to sell assets to create cash flow. My NW are those assets. If I’m not looking at the value of all of those and how I’ll sell them to fund retirement then I’m shortchanging myself.

Haha i think we are saying the same thing? I should say people need to look at both cash flow and NW. never meant to say one shouldn’t look at NW. but should look at CF too. Many people just look at NW only I think and don’t realize how insightful a year over year household cash flow analysis is. Like you allude to, positive cash flow comes from many sources. jOb, savings, selling assets, Social security., pension, etc. All those things fund the incoming cash flows in my Excel sheet. I have a sheet that projects CFs from now to age 100, but I make sure my CFs are supported to 90 only :-) I also have to project the worth of my assets to do this as well. And assume how much longer I work. And estimate my future expenses. And calc future taxes. I’m an actuary though so I like and feel comfortable with projections!


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 18, 2020, 12:02:44 PM

The biggest insights I got from this is when am I truly comfortable retiring, when can I comfortably touch certain assets, and most of all what level of household expenses I can truly support. But I know whatever I project out will never happen, because life happens. So myspreadsheet also gives me a tool to see how to adapt


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 18, 2020, 12:17:53 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 18, 2020, 11:57:30 AM

Honestly at this point in the game we just worry about healthcare and unknown kid expenses because we’ve still got two other people we are responsible for.

NW is NW, right. And cash flow is cash flow. By cash flow I mean money coming into the house every year netted against money going out of the house every year. My NW may or may not be able to support the (timing of) cash needed coming into the house to support expenses going out of the house. So I meant household cash flow analysis. Your right my art collection can’t support my household cash flow unless I sell it. Could be fun to look at as I eat cat food tho.

I still think many people shortcut the household cash flow analysis by looking at NW or a modified version of NW like LNW.

And I do include projected SS in my household CF analysis, but at my own peril. Small risk of going away I think.


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[/quote]
Maybe this is just semantics, but if you don’t have a pension, or a business, or rental property, you don’t actually have cash coming in once you stop working. This would be the case for us. I HAVE to sell assets to create cash flow. My NW are those assets. If I’m not looking at the value of all of those and how I’ll sell them to fund retirement then I’m shortchanging myself.
[/quote]
Haha i think we are saying the same thing? I should say people need to look at both cash flow and NW. never meant to say one shouldn’t look at NW. but should look at CF too. Many people just look at NW only I think and don’t realize how insightful a year over year household cash flow analysis is. Like you allude to, positive cash flow comes from many sources. jOb, savings, selling assets, Social security., pension, etc. All those things fund the incoming cash flows in my Excel sheet. I have a sheet that projects CFs from now to age 100, but I make sure my CFs are supported to 90 only :-) I also have to project the worth of my assets to do this as well. And assume how much longer I work. And estimate my future expenses. And calc future taxes. I’m an actuary though so I like and feel comfortable with projections!


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[/quote]

Good cash flow is one of the beauties of rental properties.   It always surprises me to read a list such as you've compiled and rental income isn't even on it.   Most retirement calculators don't even have a spot to include rental income, which in my opinion is missing a key source of income for many millions of people.   Lots of people downsize or upsize or relocate or inherit a property and turn it into a rental with huge success.    It's  a beautiful thing and happens all the time.   You retain the asset AND it cash flows.  (Let's set aside the Great Debate on managing rentals for the purpose of this post)

 Our net worth is most RE, our cash flow is mostly rental income.  As near as I can tell, it both cash flows better and appreciates more than most investment portfolios.  A recent $200K investment is cash flowing a profit of $15,000 a year net and the asset is intact and likely to appreciate.     Rents have a steady and sure tie in to cost of living, which generally goes up.  Our stocks and bonds are a nest egg that can sit there peacefully and be left alone.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 18, 2020, 12:30:45 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 18, 2020, 12:17:53 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 18, 2020, 11:57:30 AM

Honestly at this point in the game we just worry about healthcare and unknown kid expenses because we’ve still got two other people we are responsible for.

NW is NW, right. And cash flow is cash flow. By cash flow I mean money coming into the house every year netted against money going out of the house every year. My NW may or may not be able to support the (timing of) cash needed coming into the house to support expenses going out of the house. So I meant household cash flow analysis. Your right my art collection can’t support my household cash flow unless I sell it. Could be fun to look at as I eat cat food tho.

I still think many people shortcut the household cash flow analysis by looking at NW or a modified version of NW like LNW.

And I do include projected SS in my household CF analysis, but at my own peril. Small risk of going away I think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe this is just semantics, but if you don’t have a pension, or a business, or rental property, you don’t actually have cash coming in once you stop working. This would be the case for us. I HAVE to sell assets to create cash flow. My NW are those assets. If I’m not looking at the value of all of those and how I’ll sell them to fund retirement then I’m shortchanging myself.
[/quote]
Haha i think we are saying the same thing? I should say people need to look at both cash flow and NW. never meant to say one shouldn’t look at NW. but should look at CF too. Many people just look at NW only I think and don’t realize how insightful a year over year household cash flow analysis is. Like you allude to, positive cash flow comes from many sources. jOb, savings, selling assets, Social security., pension, etc. All those things fund the incoming cash flows in my Excel sheet. I have a sheet that projects CFs from now to age 100, but I make sure my CFs are supported to 90 only :-) I also have to project the worth of my assets to do this as well. And assume how much longer I work. And estimate my future expenses. And calc future taxes. I’m an actuary though so I like and feel comfortable with projections!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]

Good cash flow is one of the beauties of rental properties.   It always surprises me to read a list such as you've compiled and rental income isn't even on it.   Most retirement calculators don't even have a spot to include rental income, which in my opinion is missing a key source of income for many millions of people.   Lots of people downsize or upsize or relocate or inherit a property and turn it into a rental with huge success.    It's  a beautiful thing and happens all the time.   You retain the asset AND it cash flows.  (Let's set aside the Great Debate on managing rentals for the purpose of this post)

 Our net worth is most RE, our cash flow is mostly rental income.  As near as I can tell, it both cash flows better and appreciates more than most investment portfolios.  A recent $200K investment is cash flowing a profit of $15,000 a year net and the asset is intact and likely to appreciate.     Rents have a steady and sure tie in to cost of living, which generally goes up.  Our stocks and bonds are a nest egg that can sit there peacefully and be left alone.
[/quote]
$15k of $200k is 7.5%.
My investment portfolio has returned an average of 7.9% over the last ten years and it requires zero work. I could pull out 7.5% each year and still leave the principal alone to appreciate further.
I think rental property is overrated because the checks coming in the door each month give you a false sense of profitability. I’m not saying it doesn’t work out, my great grandfather made his fortune on apartment buildings years ago, but it isn’t as easy as folks make it sound.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 12:55:05 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 18, 2020, 12:30:45 PM

$15k of $200k is 7.5%.
My investment portfolio has returned an average of 7.9% over the last ten years and it requires zero work. I could pull out 7.5% each year and still leave the principal alone to appreciate further.
I think rental property is overrated because the checks coming in the door each month give you a false sense of profitability. I’m not saying it doesn’t work out, my great grandfather made his fortune on apartment buildings years ago, but it isn’t as easy as folks make it sound.

I agree that rentals are a pain. I’m planning to do them at some point because they help us achieve our objectives. One of which is passing along generational wealth. A modest, paid off home is an incredible asset for building and retaining wealth.

Sent using iPhone and tapamyfingers because using tapamytongue is too difficult.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 18, 2020, 12:56:30 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 18, 2020, 12:02:44 PM

The biggest insights I got from this is when am I truly comfortable retiring, when can I comfortably touch certain assets, and most of all what level of household expenses I can truly support. But I know whatever I project out will never happen, because life happens. So myspreadsheet also gives me a tool to see how to adapt

As Eisenhower put it so very succinctly, "Plans are useless but planning is indispensable."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 18, 2020, 01:05:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 18, 2020, 12:30:45 PM

$15k of $200k is 7.5%.
My investment portfolio has returned an average of 7.9% over the last ten years and it requires zero work. I could pull out 7.5% each year and still leave the principal alone to appreciate further.
I think rental property is overrated because the checks coming in the door each month give you a false sense of profitability. I’m not saying it doesn’t work out, my great grandfather made his fortune on apartment buildings years ago, but it isn’t as easy as folks make it sound.

I put a 7.5% withdrawal rate strategy into www.cfiresim.com and it had a 30.43% success rate over 30 years.   

THAT is the difference.

For a 30 year retirement, you need to use a 4% withdrawal rate to have a 95% success rate.   

Functionally, that rental property investment is producing the income that a stock/bond portfolio of $375,000 can sustain over 30 years, but it only required a $200k investment to do it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 18, 2020, 01:20:25 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 18, 2020, 12:02:44 PM

The biggest insights I got from this is when am I truly comfortable retiring, when can I comfortably touch certain assets, and most of all what level of household expenses I can truly support. But I know whatever I project out will never happen, because life happens. So myspreadsheet also gives me a tool to see how to adapt


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I don't know if you are retired. If not, working one more year(s) (OMY) solves your problem.

Working OMY, you have one fewer year to support, you do not withdraw from your portfolio for one year, maybe you contribute a certain amount to your portfolio.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 18, 2020, 01:39:36 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 18, 2020, 01:20:25 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 18, 2020, 12:02:44 PM

The biggest insights I got from this is when am I truly comfortable retiring, when can I comfortably touch certain assets, and most of all what level of household expenses I can truly support. But I know whatever I project out will never happen, because life happens. So myspreadsheet also gives me a tool to see how to adapt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know if you are retired. If not, working one more year(s) (OMY) solves your problem.

Working OMY, you have one fewer year to support, you do not withdraw from your portfolio for one year, maybe you contribute a certain amount to your portfolio.

I’m on the 3-4 year plan. I also have a spouse the wants to work til he drops. It all goes into the spreadsheet :-)

Rental property is something missing from our portfolio. Have no idea if it’s something I’ll ever do or not.


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: CoffeeR on July 18, 2020, 03:14:16 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 18, 2020, 12:17:53 PM

And I do include projected SS in my household CF analysis, but at my own peril. Small risk of going away I think.

I agree, very small chance of SS going away. I personally think it is close to zero chance. Now, SS being means tested, however, that is already happening in multiple countries.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 18, 2020, 04:51:52 PM

Quote from: CoffeeR on July 18, 2020, 03:14:16 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 18, 2020, 12:17:53 PM

And I do include projected SS in my household CF analysis, but at my own peril. Small risk of going away I think.

I agree, very small chance of SS going away. I personally think it is close to zero chance. Now, SS being means tested, however, that is already happening in multiple countries.

I guess as long as I get it when my AGI gown because my assets run out. Then it’s really spend your own assets first...


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 18, 2020, 05:23:38 PM

Think about Social Security from a little different viewpoint.  The naysayers are always talking from their fact and figure sheets that it cannot be afforded by the country.  I nod my head and just say," Uh huh."  While we are talking industry is installing machines to make production cheaper and easier.  Farmers are increasing the yields from the same plots of land.  Other nations are happy to sell us clothing and other necessary products at bargain basement prices.  Basic survival is certainly easier than when Social Security was implemented on August 14, 1935.

Large demonstrations have been taking place all Summer for Black Lives Matter.  It just kind of shows people still care about each other.  This shows a willingness to help others.

Back to Social Security - There is the will and there are the means to provide a decent living for folks when they exceed their working years.  Unless people develop a callous indifference in the next few years, I don't think Social Security will suffer much.  The COVID-19 has fostered some realization that we all live on this blue green rock together.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 06:10:06 PM

Social security isn’t going anywhere. If the Fed can toss a cool couple trillion at businesses and the financial sector at the drop of a hat, then we can fund Social security. The politicians will exert the proper amount of angst and drama as we would expect, but in the end it gets funded.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: honeyfill on July 18, 2020, 07:22:39 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 06:10:06 PM

Social security isn’t going anywhere. If the Fed can toss a cool couple trillion at businesses and the financial sector at the drop of a hat, then we can fund Social security. The politicians will exert the proper amount of angst and drama as we would expect, but in the end it gets funded.

Remember, the cohort in this topic will be considered too rich for SS.  Part of the solution to the shortfall will be 'means testing'.  I'm not saying if that will be fair or not. What I am saying is that if you are in the 2-4 and beyond club in 2034, do not count on getting much SS. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 07:30:31 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on July 18, 2020, 07:22:39 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 06:10:06 PM

Social security isn’t going anywhere. If the Fed can toss a cool couple trillion at businesses and the financial sector at the drop of a hat, then we can fund Social security. The politicians will exert the proper amount of angst and drama as we would expect, but in the end it gets funded.

Remember, the cohort in this topic will be considered too rich for SS.  Part of the solution to the shortfall will be 'means testing'.  I'm not saying if that will be fair or not. What I am saying is that if you are in the 2-4 and beyond club in 2034, do not count on getting much SS.

We’ll see. Part of the genius of SS was making essentially everyone both a contributor and beneficiary; it helped secure the systems future. I think a more likely scenario is that SS contributions won’t have a ceiling.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: alienbogey on July 18, 2020, 11:26:11 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 07:30:31 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on July 18, 2020, 07:22:39 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 06:10:06 PM

Social security isn’t going anywhere. If the Fed can toss a cool couple trillion at businesses and the financial sector at the drop of a hat, then we can fund Social security. The politicians will exert the proper amount of angst and drama as we would expect, but in the end it gets funded.

Remember, the cohort in this topic will be considered too rich for SS.  Part of the solution to the shortfall will be 'means testing'.  I'm not saying if that will be fair or not. What I am saying is that if you are in the 2-4 and beyond club in 2034, do not count on getting much SS.

We’ll see. Part of the genius of SS was making essentially everyone both a contributor and beneficiary; it helped secure the systems future. I think a more likely scenario is that SS taxes won’t have a ceiling.

Fixed that for you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on July 19, 2020, 07:01:12 AM

Quote from: alienbogey on July 18, 2020, 11:26:11 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 07:30:31 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on July 18, 2020, 07:22:39 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 06:10:06 PM

Social security isn’t going anywhere. If the Fed can toss a cool couple trillion at businesses and the financial sector at the drop of a hat, then we can fund Social security. The politicians will exert the proper amount of angst and drama as we would expect, but in the end it gets funded.

Remember, the cohort in this topic will be considered too rich for SS.  Part of the solution to the shortfall will be 'means testing'.  I'm not saying if that will be fair or not. What I am saying is that if you are in the 2-4 and beyond club in 2034, do not count on getting much SS.

We’ll see. Part of the genius of SS was making essentially everyone both a contributor and beneficiary; it helped secure the systems future. I think a more likely scenario is that SS taxes won’t have a ceiling.

Fixed that for you.

I think we can pretty easily see what's naturally next with SS from the progression we've already seen in the past (slowly moving up the employee and employer rates a couple tenths a percent at a time) and in funding Medicare (moving up contributions one-tenth of a percent at a time, lifting earnings cap, then a new additional rate on higher earnings.  And the NIIT to capture revenue from unearned income sources, which was really made easier to stomach by the cap gains rate holding firm and not reverting back to the earned income brackets, so in the end just redirected the revenue, etc, etc).  SS is already means tested (in an admittedly different way than a real means testing) practically speaking with the bend points, and with the taxation structure of social securtiy benefits themselves.  Of course the big practical move on that will be the lifting of the cap but bending the return to zero at that point (I'm sure no one is gonna suggest expanding SS at this point to bring 'security' to a higher income level), etc.  There are so many levers to push I think the parties will stay away from anything that looks like a real black and white change and just keep moving these levers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on July 19, 2020, 08:28:32 AM

Quote from: alienbogey on July 18, 2020, 11:26:11 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 07:30:31 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on July 18, 2020, 07:22:39 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 06:10:06 PM

Social security isn’t going anywhere. If the Fed can toss a cool couple trillion at businesses and the financial sector at the drop of a hat, then we can fund Social security. The politicians will exert the proper amount of angst and drama as we would expect, but in the end it gets funded.

Remember, the cohort in this topic will be considered too rich for SS.  Part of the solution to the shortfall will be 'means testing'.  I'm not saying if that will be fair or not. What I am saying is that if you are in the 2-4 and beyond club in 2034, do not count on getting much SS.

We’ll see. Part of the genius of SS was making essentially everyone both a contributor and beneficiary; it helped secure the systems future. I think a more likely scenario is that SS taxes won’t have a ceiling.

Fixed that for you.

I don't think we can realistically ever get rid of SS or should we.  There are too many people who have saved too little for retirement.  We cannot as a prosperous nation let millions of people die in poverty in old age.  That would be unconscionable. 

I expect the SS tax ceiling will need to rise to keep the program solvent.  Since one of our big issues in this country is inequality, I would have no problem with that.  I view taxes as a necessary evil but it's better than the alternative of having the system go insolvent or letting people die in poverty.

If the whole program were to become means tested and I wasn't given a single penny after paying in over a lifetime, though, I'd probably be pretty frustrated.  The whole point is that it's a benefit that everyone pays into (some more than others) and everyone receives (some more than others).  I've got no problem with it being "progressive" (speaking tax speak not culture), since the primary purpose is to provide a base income.  To flatly deny benefits to people because they did a job saving over the course of their life?  That sucks and sends a bad message to boot. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 19, 2020, 10:32:57 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 18, 2020, 01:05:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 18, 2020, 12:30:45 PM

$15k of $200k is 7.5%.
My investment portfolio has returned an average of 7.9% over the last ten years and it requires zero work. I could pull out 7.5% each year and still leave the principal alone to appreciate further.
I think rental property is overrated because the checks coming in the door each month give you a false sense of profitability. I’m not saying it doesn’t work out, my great grandfather made his fortune on apartment buildings years ago, but it isn’t as easy as folks make it sound.

I put a 7.5% withdrawal rate strategy into www.cfiresim.com and it had a 30.43% success rate over 30 years.   

THAT is the difference.

For a 30 year retirement, you need to use a 4% withdrawal rate to have a 95% success rate.   

Functionally, that rental property investment is producing the income that a stock/bond portfolio of $375,000 can sustain over 30 years, but it only required a $200k investment to do it.

But you’re assuming that a rental property returns 7.5% every year. Which would ignore maintenance expenses and any rental income that might be lost if a property sits empty or you have to evict someone etc.
I think when rental property is good, it’s really good. But when it’s bad it can be really bad and a huge drain on your assets.
We’ve kicked around the rental property idea for many years, as well as vacation properties and ultimately decided it seemed to be a bigger risk to us than it’s worth when we can live on 3% of our portfolio.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 19, 2020, 12:03:11 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 19, 2020, 10:32:57 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 18, 2020, 01:05:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 18, 2020, 12:30:45 PM

$15k of $200k is 7.5%.
My investment portfolio has returned an average of 7.9% over the last ten years and it requires zero work. I could pull out 7.5% each year and still leave the principal alone to appreciate further.
I think rental property is overrated because the checks coming in the door each month give you a false sense of profitability. I’m not saying it doesn’t work out, my great grandfather made his fortune on apartment buildings years ago, but it isn’t as easy as folks make it sound.

I put a 7.5% withdrawal rate strategy into www.cfiresim.com and it had a 30.43% success rate over 30 years.   

THAT is the difference.

For a 30 year retirement, you need to use a 4% withdrawal rate to have a 95% success rate.   

Functionally, that rental property investment is producing the income that a stock/bond portfolio of $375,000 can sustain over 30 years, but it only required a $200k investment to do it.

But you’re assuming that a rental property returns 7.5% every year. Which would ignore maintenance expenses and any rental income that might be lost if a property sits empty or you have to evict someone etc.
I think when rental property is good, it’s really good. But when it’s bad it can be really bad and a huge drain on your assets.
We’ve kicked around the rental property idea for many years, as well as vacation properties and ultimately decided it seemed to be a bigger risk to us than it’s worth when we can live on 3% of our portfolio.

No, I'm not assuming that at all.  I'm assuming the OP knows how to properly calculate profit on a rental property.   You have to subtract out vacancies and future repair costs before you calculate profit.

Some years the expenses will be higher and some they will be lower, but over time they average out -- just like the stock market has ups and downs that average out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 21, 2020, 09:06:29 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 19, 2020, 12:03:11 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 19, 2020, 10:32:57 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 18, 2020, 01:05:45 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 18, 2020, 12:30:45 PM

$15k of $200k is 7.5%.
My investment portfolio has returned an average of 7.9% over the last ten years and it requires zero work. I could pull out 7.5% each year and still leave the principal alone to appreciate further.
I think rental property is overrated because the checks coming in the door each month give you a false sense of profitability. I’m not saying it doesn’t work out, my great grandfather made his fortune on apartment buildings years ago, but it isn’t as easy as folks make it sound.

I put a 7.5% withdrawal rate strategy into www.cfiresim.com and it had a 30.43% success rate over 30 years.   

THAT is the difference.

For a 30 year retirement, you need to use a 4% withdrawal rate to have a 95% success rate.   

Functionally, that rental property investment is producing the income that a stock/bond portfolio of $375,000 can sustain over 30 years, but it only required a $200k investment to do it.

But you’re assuming that a rental property returns 7.5% every year. Which would ignore maintenance expenses and any rental income that might be lost if a property sits empty or you have to evict someone etc.
I think when rental property is good, it’s really good. But when it’s bad it can be really bad and a huge drain on your assets.
We’ve kicked around the rental property idea for many years, as well as vacation properties and ultimately decided it seemed to be a bigger risk to us than it’s worth when we can live on 3% of our portfolio.

No, I'm not assuming that at all.  I'm assuming the OP knows how to properly calculate profit on a rental property.   You have to subtract out vacancies and future repair costs before you calculate profit.

Some years the expenses will be higher and some they will be lower, but over time they average out -- just like the stock market has ups and downs that average out.

Yes, @SwordGuy  is correct.  It's 15K on a 200K investment, after factoring in expenses including vacancies, taxes, insurance and property manager for that particular unit.  There's no mortgage.  This investment is stable, the sturdy, well maintained house will most likely still be standing when I'm dead and buried, and the rent checks should be coming in like clockwork for as long as I own it.   I know many of my beloved friends in this cohort are skeptical, but hear me out.   It's always good to hear how someone made it to this thread, yes?

 We do most of our own work in true MMM style, and yes, there's the occasional need for a roof (about 7500 for a small 3/2 footprint w/garage), or a backed up pipe.  Or we buy a fixer upper and the work is substantial.  It may take weeks or even months to get a fixer to the caliber that we want them to be.  We'll know that going in.   But let's set fixer uppers aside, because our core rentals have been fixed up and cash flowing for years, most more than a decade. 

 Overall, our tenants are very happy and long term (we keep them happy, our beautiful houses are below market and in good repair,  and they stay).  Most of my houses are only vacant for for a few days at a time.  Most of the occupied houses need less than an hour of our time a month, some less than a minute.   In July, so far, one tenant called to ask where the water shut off valve is.  One asked if they could remove some bushes.   I didn't hear from anybody else.    Then I check the financials for the first few days of the month to make sure the autodeposits are deposited.   That's about 10 minutes so far this month and we're 3 weeks in.    Last year we had several vacancies, but that is very unusual.  We raise the low rents when they move out, so it's a cash positive move.  Generally we have about 1 vacancy a year that takes 1-4 weeks to get rented. 

 RE is so good to us that I can't bring myself to do it any other way.   There is no doubt that investment portfolios are easier and has worked brilliantly for most of you, but RE has made us very wealthy.  When I do the math, I can't imagine sinking 200K into the market and hoping it all works out.  In theory, I've heard again and again how it works, but in practice, I'm way better at real estate and more comfortable having my eyeballs on my own investment.  No judgement or debate, because we all choose a path that is comfortable for us.    I'm glad it's worked for most of you, but it hasn't for us.   Instead, I make an investment that starts to give me a return immediately.   I don't see monthly rent checks as a false sense of profitability.  I see them as a bird in the hand.   I know that rent income came in last month and safely landed in my bank account.   It will happen again next week.   I didn't wait for the dividends to post.     We're not hand to mouth here waiting on rent checks to pay the bills.   We an ever increasing NW and cash in a growing bank account.  Freedom and wealth. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 22, 2020, 07:24:19 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 21, 2020, 09:06:29 PM

- SNIP -

.   We an ever increasing NW and cash in a growing bank account.  Freedom and wealth.

Wow!  Sounds like one of those TV ads I used to see when my insomnia forced me to watch old Black and White movies late at night.  These ads for flipping houses and renting houses always sounded too good to be true, but they must have some basis in fact.

Maybe - it's a part of the American dream that they haven't taken away yet.

I like the sound of it.  It seems far more stable and controllable than the mysterious stock market where your fingers need to be crossed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 22, 2020, 08:01:30 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 22, 2020, 07:24:19 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 21, 2020, 09:06:29 PM

- SNIP -

.   We an ever increasing NW and cash in a growing bank account.  Freedom and wealth.

Wow!  Sounds like one of those TV ads I used to see when my insomnia forced me to watch old Black and White movies late at night.  These ads for flipping houses and renting houses always sounded too good to be true, but they must have some basis in fact.

Maybe - it's a part of the American dream that they haven't taken away yet.

I like the sound of it.  It seems far more stable and controllable than the mysterious stock market where your fingers need to be crossed.

That's right, baby,  step on in!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 22, 2020, 02:21:24 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 22, 2020, 07:24:19 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 21, 2020, 09:06:29 PM

- SNIP -

.   We an ever increasing NW and cash in a growing bank account.  Freedom and wealth.

Wow!  Sounds like one of those TV ads I used to see when my insomnia forced me to watch old Black and White movies late at night.  These ads for flipping houses and renting houses always sounded too good to be true, but they must have some basis in fact.

Maybe - it's a part of the American dream that they haven't taken away yet.

I like the sound of it.  It seems far more stable and controllable than the mysterious stock market where your fingers need to be crossed.

It's definitely possible for regular people to make money in rental properties.   Not in every market, but certainly in plenty of them.
You can get a higher dollar return on investment if you're willing to do a lot of the work yourself but that's not an essential requirement.

We have 4 rental properties and have been really pleased with the results we've gotten with them.   FIRE is all about a reasonably reliable cash flow that covers expenses, plus reserves to handle life's dammits as they come your way.   

Compared to the 4% rule for stock/bond portfolio, we were able to get the same cash flow from rental profits for half the dollar investment -- plus a lot of sweat equity to get the properties ready for sale.   Once they hit the market we spend very little time on them because we hire out the running of them to a property management company.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 22, 2020, 02:38:51 PM

I keep on kicking around the Real Estate angle, but still have a hard time shaking the memories of my parents forays into it. Tenants that don’t pay the rent. Holes kicked into walls. Trapping 30 feral cats.

Landlords earn every dime. Not so sure I want that sort of drama in my life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 22, 2020, 03:18:21 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 22, 2020, 02:38:51 PM

I keep on kicking around the Real Estate angle, but still have a hard time shaking the memories of my parents forays into it. Tenants that don’t pay the rent. Holes kicked into walls. Trapping 30 feral cats.

Landlords earn every dime. Not so sure I want that sort of drama in my life.

yeah my two small rentals make roughly 21k/yr in profit and I've had them for 23 years. The money has been great, heck thats how I paid off the house and they provide about 40% of our FIRE income.

That said.. I've had floods, renters not pay (they did eventually after some hair pulling), renters threatening to sue me, damage etc.

Its now got to the point where they are a PITA that honestly I don't need.. and I certainly don't need the money.

If the trailer rental suddenly burst into flames (its insured for $12k) I wouldn't exactly be heartbroken..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 22, 2020, 04:48:54 PM

I've got three houses.  I've rented one of them.   Last renter left me with unpaid rent and utilities.   I pulled the electrical service with the renter inside.  He came out to threaten me immediately after the power was cut.  He'd been beating his girlfriend onsite.  She'd left by then.  He said he'd be calling his lawyer on me.  I told him he'd be adding assault to my charges if he didn't get the fuck out immediately.  That was my last and final renter.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 22, 2020, 10:55:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 22, 2020, 03:18:21 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 22, 2020, 02:38:51 PM

I keep on kicking around the Real Estate angle, but still have a hard time shaking the memories of my parents forays into it. Tenants that don’t pay the rent. Holes kicked into walls. Trapping 30 feral cats.

Landlords earn every dime. Not so sure I want that sort of drama in my life.

yeah my two small rentals make roughly 21k/yr in profit and I've had them for 23 years. The money has been great, heck thats how I paid off the house and they provide about 40% of our FIRE income.

That said.. I've had floods, renters not pay (they did eventually after some hair pulling), renters threatening to sue me, damage etc.

Its now got to the point where they are a PITA that honestly I don't need.. and I certainly don't need the money.

If the trailer rental suddenly burst into flames (its insured for $12k) I wouldn't exactly be heartbroken..:)

Claim insurance on your fire damaged trailer rental.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 23, 2020, 07:46:32 AM

Seen a few stories on investing in trailer parks in the past year or so.  I'm not like you guys into savvy investing.  I just happened across them.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92 (http://[url)[/url]

Seems like a good deal.  If you lose a renter or two you've still got the other tenants in the lot.  It's the tenants problem to take care of their trailers.  These things are kind of captive so you can bump up the rent once the trailer park is full.  It's hard to move them and they can be hard to sell.

Personal Experience - I lived in a trailer many years ago.  It was in a park that the farmer owner had converted from a cornfield.  It was full.  Bad year for corn was still a good year for the trailer park.

Is this a good niche real estate market?  (I still don't want to do it.)

If I did it maybe I could get a book deal, "I was a Redneck Slumlord."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on July 23, 2020, 12:39:22 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 23, 2020, 07:46:32 AM

Seen a few stories on investing in trailer parks in the past year or so.  I'm not like you guys into savvy investing.  I just happened across them.

[url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92 (http://[url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92)[/url]

Seems like a good deal.  If you lose a renter or two you've still got the other tenants in the lot.  It's the tenants problem to take care of their trailers.  These things are kind of captive so you can bump up the rent once the trailer park is full.  It's hard to move them and they can be hard to sell.

Personal Experience - I lived in a trailer many years ago.  It was in a park that the farmer owner had converted from a cornfield.  It was full.  Bad year for corn was still a good year for the trailer park.

Is this a good niche real estate market?  (I still don't want to do it.)

If I did it maybe I could get a book deal, "I was a Redneck Slumlord."

One can make a lot of money in trailer parks by being evil.  It is simple.  Find a park where the tenants own the trailers and someone is selling you the land.  The trailers are actually very hard to move.  So you jack up the rent a lot, enough that trailers are worthless vis-a-vis renting an apartment (or maybe even worse) and the tenants need to choose between paying your extortionate rent or leaving the home they thought they owned.  Again, this is in my view basically evil.  Private equity funds do this.

Thankfully, I have never worked on this type of deal and won't ever be in a position where I'll need to.  But it is a thing that people do, and some very rich people make some very nice returns by investing in generic real estate funds that they may not even realize do this. 

(I think it's easier to justify evil when there are middlemen.  So like the king doesn't torture the prisoners, the king just tells the sergeant at arms that he needs information about the upcoming battle, and then the sergeant at arms tells a poor new recruit he needs to make the prisoner talk and then the king gets his information without having to come fully to grips with what he's responsible for.  There are various modern examples of this phenomenon as well.) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on July 23, 2020, 12:43:04 PM

Evil tactic #2.  Buy a run down building in a gentrifying area.  Treat it like garbage and never fix it.  Make the tenants live in terrible conditions, so bad they all want to just move out on their own.  Then the building is mostly empty and run down.  OOOPS, I guess it needs to be rebuilt with fancy condos now.  Zoning board would never approve this if it required mass evictions.

I did work on a deal where the city cracked down on some jerk who did this (he lives in a huge house in a rich area of course) and he had to sell all his properties to responsible owners and get out.  I represented the nonprofit purchaser trying to fix his bad behavior.  That made me feel good. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 23, 2020, 12:43:33 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 23, 2020, 07:46:32 AM

Seen a few stories on investing in trailer parks in the past year or so.  I'm not like you guys into savvy investing.  I just happened across them.

[url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92 (http://[url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92)[/url]

Seems like a good deal.  If you lose a renter or two you've still got the other tenants in the lot.  It's the tenants problem to take care of their trailers.  These things are kind of captive so you can bump up the rent once the trailer park is full.  It's hard to move them and they can be hard to sell.

Personal Experience - I lived in a trailer many years ago.  It was in a park that the farmer owner had converted from a cornfield.  It was full.  Bad year for corn was still a good year for the trailer park.

Is this a good niche real estate market?  (I still don't want to do it.)

If I did it maybe I could get a book deal, "I was a Redneck Slumlord."

yes in fact one of the most lucrative types of trailer parks are the one catering to sex offenders. Its great.. no kids obviously and the renters are pretty much not allowed to live anywhere except your trailer park.. You can then raise the rent to have the renters virtually starving then they have no money to leave.

If they default you simply kick them out and of course they can't afford a lawyer and you don't have to accept any of their potential buyers so you (do them a favour) and buy their trailer for pennies on the dollar then rent it out again or sell it to a new "owner" who is in the same situation as the last person only now you've made a ton of money on the deal.

There are always sex offenders that need somewhere to live.. You'd be doing them a great service!

This might sound slightly sarcastic but apparently this is exactly what happens.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 23, 2020, 01:43:13 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 23, 2020, 12:43:33 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 23, 2020, 07:46:32 AM

Seen a few stories on investing in trailer parks in the past year or so.  I'm not like you guys into savvy investing.  I just happened across them.

[url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92 (http://[url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92)[/url]

Seems like a good deal.  If you lose a renter or two you've still got the other tenants in the lot.  It's the tenants problem to take care of their trailers.  These things are kind of captive so you can bump up the rent once the trailer park is full.  It's hard to move them and they can be hard to sell.

Personal Experience - I lived in a trailer many years ago.  It was in a park that the farmer owner had converted from a cornfield.  It was full.  Bad year for corn was still a good year for the trailer park.

Is this a good niche real estate market?  (I still don't want to do it.)

If I did it maybe I could get a book deal, "I was a Redneck Slumlord."

yes in fact one of the most lucrative types of trailer parks are the one catering to sex offenders. Its great.. no kids obviously and the renters are pretty much not allowed to live anywhere except your trailer park.. You can then raise the rent to have the renters virtually starving then they have no money to leave.

If they default you simply kick them out and of course they can't afford a lawyer and you don't have to accept any of their potential buyers so you (do them a favour) and buy their trailer for pennies on the dollar then rent it out again or sell it to a new "owner" who is in the same situation as the last person only now you've made a ton of money on the deal.

There are always sex offenders that need somewhere to live.. You'd be doing them a great service!

This might sound slightly sarcastic but apparently this is exactly what happens.

We do our best to be good and responsible landlords.    We fix what needs fixing and we get it fixed as promptly as we can.   We expect things to be fixed properly.

I despise landlords who abuse their tenants by not properly maintaining the rentals.

But, damn, I'm having a tough time feeling sorry for this particular subset of clientele.   Perhaps that's because I think that most of them should have just been executed in the first place.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 23, 2020, 02:02:45 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2020, 01:43:13 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 23, 2020, 12:43:33 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 23, 2020, 07:46:32 AM

Seen a few stories on investing in trailer parks in the past year or so.  I'm not like you guys into savvy investing.  I just happened across them.

[url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92 (http://[url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92)[/url]

Seems like a good deal.  If you lose a renter or two you've still got the other tenants in the lot.  It's the tenants problem to take care of their trailers.  These things are kind of captive so you can bump up the rent once the trailer park is full.  It's hard to move them and they can be hard to sell.

Personal Experience - I lived in a trailer many years ago.  It was in a park that the farmer owner had converted from a cornfield.  It was full.  Bad year for corn was still a good year for the trailer park.

Is this a good niche real estate market?  (I still don't want to do it.)

If I did it maybe I could get a book deal, "I was a Redneck Slumlord."

yes in fact one of the most lucrative types of trailer parks are the one catering to sex offenders. Its great.. no kids obviously and the renters are pretty much not allowed to live anywhere except your trailer park.. You can then raise the rent to have the renters virtually starving then they have no money to leave.

If they default you simply kick them out and of course they can't afford a lawyer and you don't have to accept any of their potential buyers so you (do them a favour) and buy their trailer for pennies on the dollar then rent it out again or sell it to a new "owner" who is in the same situation as the last person only now you've made a ton of money on the deal.

There are always sex offenders that need somewhere to live.. You'd be doing them a great service!

This might sound slightly sarcastic but apparently this is exactly what happens.

We do our best to be good and responsible landlords.    We fix what needs fixing and we get it fixed as promptly as we can.   We expect things to be fixed properly.

I despise landlords who abuse their tenants by not properly maintaining the rentals.

But, damn, I'm having a tough time feeling sorry for this particular subset of clientele.   Perhaps that's because I think that most of them should have just been executed in the first place.

Gotta love the logic there.  This person is so dangerous that we're going to force them to register in perpetuity as a sex offender so they can live in working classs and lower class neighborhoods. But they're not so dangerous that we'll actually spend the money incarcerate them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 23, 2020, 02:19:08 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2020, 01:43:13 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 23, 2020, 12:43:33 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 23, 2020, 07:46:32 AM

Seen a few stories on investing in trailer parks in the past year or so.  I'm not like you guys into savvy investing.  I just happened across them.

[url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92 (http://[url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92)[/url]

Seems like a good deal.  If you lose a renter or two you've still got the other tenants in the lot.  It's the tenants problem to take care of their trailers.  These things are kind of captive so you can bump up the rent once the trailer park is full.  It's hard to move them and they can be hard to sell.

Personal Experience - I lived in a trailer many years ago.  It was in a park that the farmer owner had converted from a cornfield.  It was full.  Bad year for corn was still a good year for the trailer park.

Is this a good niche real estate market?  (I still don't want to do it.)

If I did it maybe I could get a book deal, "I was a Redneck Slumlord."

yes in fact one of the most lucrative types of trailer parks are the one catering to sex offenders. Its great.. no kids obviously and the renters are pretty much not allowed to live anywhere except your trailer park.. You can then raise the rent to have the renters virtually starving then they have no money to leave.

If they default you simply kick them out and of course they can't afford a lawyer and you don't have to accept any of their potential buyers so you (do them a favour) and buy their trailer for pennies on the dollar then rent it out again or sell it to a new "owner" who is in the same situation as the last person only now you've made a ton of money on the deal.

There are always sex offenders that need somewhere to live.. You'd be doing them a great service!

This might sound slightly sarcastic but apparently this is exactly what happens.

We do our best to be good and responsible landlords.    We fix what needs fixing and we get it fixed as promptly as we can.   We expect things to be fixed properly.

I despise landlords who abuse their tenants by not properly maintaining the rentals.

But, damn, I'm having a tough time feeling sorry for this particular subset of clientele.   Perhaps that's because I think that most of them should have just been executed in the first place.

When this topic came up in a branch of our family tree, we were told the majority of offenders were themselves victimized as children. That "execution" solution is a lot more complicated in light of this knowledge. In the case I'm referring to, the perpetrator eventually died of other causes. How it has continued to impact his victim's life is hard to say, because the relative(s) are distant enough that we just don't know. And it's not like it's something you bring up in casual communication. It's a tragedy in every direction.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 23, 2020, 02:51:21 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 23, 2020, 02:19:08 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2020, 01:43:13 PM

But, damn, I'm having a tough time feeling sorry for this particular subset of clientele.   Perhaps that's because I think that most of them should have just been executed in the first place.

When this topic came up in a branch of our family tree, we were told the majority of offenders were themselves victimized as children. That "execution" solution is a lot more complicated in light of this knowledge. In the case I'm referring to, the perpetrator eventually died of other causes. How it has continued to impact his victim's life is hard to say, because the relative(s) are distant enough that we just don't know. And it's not like it's something you bring up in casual communication. It's a tragedy in every direction.

I signed up for our state's sex offender registry notification system after someone opened up a halfway house for rapists and pedophiles in our neighborhood (two homes ago).   That way, when a new person moved in we would know who to watch out for.   (That's not being paranoid or overreacting, we didn't do that until we discovered that multiple pets had been poisoned, one had had it' back broken, another was burned, all starting right after the place opened up.   That's when we also better secured the doors, bought a shotgun and I made sure we both knew how to use it.)

We're discussing people who raped 2 year olds when they were in their 30s thru 50s.   Never saw anyone who had just turned 18 and got in trouble for fooling around with their still 17 year old girlfriend...   

Sometimes I simply do not care WHY someone does something so awful.   I simply don't.    They just need to be dead.    Many of these offenders fit into that category.

PS -- when Animal Control put enough pressure on the original 5 occupants of said half-way house -- the only government agency who would do a damn thing to help us -- they moved out one by one.  (And were replaced by new tenants.)   After the last one was gone the brutal mistreatment of animals stopped -- in our neighborhood.   Some other neighborhood, probably poorer, got to live with someone going thru their serial killer self-training program.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 23, 2020, 07:34:02 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 23, 2020, 07:46:32 AM

Seen a few stories on investing in trailer parks in the past year or so.  I'm not like you guys into savvy investing.  I just happened across them.

[url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92 (http://[url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92)[/url]

Seems like a good deal.  If you lose a renter or two you've still got the other tenants in the lot.  It's the tenants problem to take care of their trailers.  These things are kind of captive so you can bump up the rent once the trailer park is full.  It's hard to move them and they can be hard to sell.

Personal Experience - I lived in a trailer many years ago.  It was in a park that the farmer owner had converted from a cornfield.  It was full.  Bad year for corn was still a good year for the trailer park.

Is this a good niche real estate market?  (I still don't want to do it.)

If I did it maybe I could get a book deal, "I was a Redneck Slumlord."

Trailer park? Now there’s an interesting investment idea. Kinda hard for tenants to damage a piece of dirt. Not impossible, but they’d have to work at it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 23, 2020, 08:50:39 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 23, 2020, 07:34:02 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 23, 2020, 07:46:32 AM

Seen a few stories on investing in trailer parks in the past year or so.  I'm not like you guys into savvy investing.  I just happened across them.

[url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92][url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92 (http://[url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonturner/2017/07/11/7-powerful-benefits-to-mobile-home-park-investing/#4c23ef6c6e92)[/url]

Seems like a good deal.  If you lose a renter or two you've still got the other tenants in the lot.  It's the tenants problem to take care of their trailers.  These things are kind of captive so you can bump up the rent once the trailer park is full.  It's hard to move them and they can be hard to sell.

Personal Experience - I lived in a trailer many years ago.  It was in a park that the farmer owner had converted from a cornfield.  It was full.  Bad year for corn was still a good year for the trailer park.

Is this a good niche real estate market?  (I still don't want to do it.)

If I did it maybe I could get a book deal, "I was a Redneck Slumlord."

Trailer park? Now there’s an interesting investment idea. Kinda hard for tenants to damage a piece of dirt. Not impossible, but they’d have to work at it.

There are utility lines and attachment points, lawns, mailboxes, possibly a laundromat, roads, signs, etc.   Never underestimate the ability of people to vandalize something.   Plus they could drive out good tenants.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 24, 2020, 04:21:37 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2020, 02:51:21 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 23, 2020, 02:19:08 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2020, 01:43:13 PM

But, damn, I'm having a tough time feeling sorry for this particular subset of clientele.   Perhaps that's because I think that most of them should have just been executed in the first place.

When this topic came up in a branch of our family tree, we were told the majority of offenders were themselves victimized as children. That "execution" solution is a lot more complicated in light of this knowledge. In the case I'm referring to, the perpetrator eventually died of other causes. How it has continued to impact his victim's life is hard to say, because the relative(s) are distant enough that we just don't know. And it's not like it's something you bring up in casual communication. It's a tragedy in every direction.

I signed up for our state's sex offender registry notification system after someone opened up a halfway house for rapists and pedophiles in our neighborhood (two homes ago).   That way, when a new person moved in we would know who to watch out for.   (That's not being paranoid or overreacting, we didn't do that until we discovered that multiple pets had been poisoned, one had had it' back broken, another was burned, all starting right after the place opened up.   That's when we also better secured the doors, bought a shotgun and I made sure we both knew how to use it.)

We're discussing people who raped 2 year olds when they were in their 30s thru 50s.   Never saw anyone who had just turned 18 and got in trouble for fooling around with their still 17 year old girlfriend...   

Sometimes I simply do not care WHY someone does something so awful.   I simply don't.    They just need to be dead.    Many of these offenders fit into that category.

PS -- when Animal Control put enough pressure on the original 5 occupants of said half-way house -- the only government agency who would do a damn thing to help us -- they moved out one by one.  (And were replaced by new tenants.)   After the last one was gone the brutal mistreatment of animals stopped -- in our neighborhood.   Some other neighborhood, probably poorer, got to live with someone going thru their serial killer self-training program.

Those people should NEVER be let out imo! But I would want to know that info as well. Some sick people.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 24, 2020, 06:40:33 AM

Reminds me of the lyrics to an old Doors song.

There's a killer on the road
His brain is squirmin' like a toad
Take a long holiday
Let your children play
If you give this man a ride, sweet family will die
Killer on the road.

I used to hitch hike years ago.  I think it helped give hitch hikers a bad name. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LetItGrow on July 25, 2020, 05:02:56 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on July 19, 2020, 08:28:32 AM

Quote from: alienbogey on July 18, 2020, 11:26:11 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 07:30:31 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on July 18, 2020, 07:22:39 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 18, 2020, 06:10:06 PM

Social security isn’t going anywhere. If the Fed can toss a cool couple trillion at businesses and the financial sector at the drop of a hat, then we can fund Social security. The politicians will exert the proper amount of angst and drama as we would expect, but in the end it gets funded.

Remember, the cohort in this topic will be considered too rich for SS.  Part of the solution to the shortfall will be 'means testing'.  I'm not saying if that will be fair or not. What I am saying is that if you are in the 2-4 and beyond club in 2034, do not count on getting much SS.

We’ll see. Part of the genius of SS was making essentially everyone both a contributor and beneficiary; it helped secure the systems future. I think a more likely scenario is that SS taxes won’t have a ceiling.

Fixed that for you.

I don't think we can realistically ever get rid of SS or should we.  There are too many people who have saved too little for retirement.  We cannot as a prosperous nation let millions of people die in poverty in old age.  That would be unconscionable. 

I expect the SS tax ceiling will need to rise to keep the program solvent.  Since one of our big issues in this country is inequality, I would have no problem with that.  I view taxes as a necessary evil but it's better than the alternative of having the system go insolvent or letting people die in poverty.

If the whole program were to become means tested and I wasn't given a single penny after paying in over a lifetime, though, I'd probably be pretty frustrated.  The whole point is that it's a benefit that everyone pays into (some more than others) and everyone receives (some more than others).  I've got no problem with it being "progressive" (speaking tax speak not culture), since the primary purpose is to provide a base income.  To flatly deny benefits to people because they did a job saving over the course of their life?  That sucks and sends a bad message to boot.

Good post. I expect to have our benefits clipped a bit in 20 years when we start drawing, but yeah a major haircut on it would be pretty disappointing. Doesn’t seem likely, but all sorts of weird shit has happened in this country.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 25, 2020, 05:29:09 PM

If you look at the history of Social Security, it follows a very consistent pattern.

When the program gets in trouble, two things happen:  taxes are raised and benefits get expanded.  The first part makes sense financially, the second part probably makes sense politically.

Like most, I account for a haircut to be conservative (fiscally, not politically ;-) ), but if pressed I would actually predict, based on history, that I will get my full benefit if not more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 26, 2020, 12:31:32 PM

I cannot think of social security going away without something like universal income to replace it. Someone in previous posts said that there are too many people in this country who have saved close to nothing for their retirement.

What I heard is that the democrats are calling for more in social security payments, which would mean higher taxes in one way or another. There may be means tests for the social security. Does that means it looks like being eliminated for the "rich" folks in this tread?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 26, 2020, 01:00:09 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 26, 2020, 12:31:32 PM

I cannot think of social security going away without something like universal income to replace it. Someone in previous posts said that there are too many people in this country who have saved close to nothing for their retirement.

What I heard is that the democrats are calling for more in social security payments, which would mean higher taxes in one way or another. There may be means tests for the social security. Does that means it looks like being eliminated for the "rich" folks in this tread?

Stop the corporate welfare, bloated defense spending, and make the ultra-rich and mega-corporations pay more taxes, and it will all work out just fine.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 26, 2020, 01:08:26 PM

The problem with means testing SS payments of course is that everybody pays into it so in theory everybody should get a payout to some degree. Right now we have both an uplift (i.e the very poor get a bigger percentage of their contribution)

From what I can see they take the total earnings for the highest earning 35 years then divide that by 420 to get an average monthly earning.

If that monthly average is $926 or below, then you get 90% of that earning, i.e up to $833/month. Above $926, you only get 32% of those extra earnings up to $5583/month, then it drops to 19% I believe.

So you can see the lower income folks get a proportionally far bigger payout.

There are some strange tax things too.. like the more you earn the bigger proportion of your payout gets taxed.

Don't even mention the "Windfall Elimination Program" where up to $463/month of your payout gets stolen like it it does in my case.

So as you can see there is quite a bit of means testing going on already.

Incidently, I read an article from last year that says on average, individuals spend 43% of their SS payments on healthcare.. I.e Medicare.

This jives with some of the cost projections I came up with that suggests my total SS check will go to funding Medicare for DW and I.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on July 26, 2020, 07:59:41 PM

@Exflyboy, I'm not sure that's a fair characterization of the WEP rule.  If you spent many years working for a job that didn't pay into social security and you got a pension from that job, then you already got your reward and your social security is being adjusted for the fact that you didn't really pay in.

At least that is what Google tells me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 26, 2020, 08:22:56 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on July 26, 2020, 07:59:41 PM

@Exflyboy, I'm not sure that's a fair characterization of the WEP rule.  If you spent many years working for a job that didn't pay into social security and you got a pension from that job, then you already got your reward and your social security is being adjusted for the fact that you didn't really pay in.

At least that is what Google tells me.

So you work some number of years (presumably less than 35) and that buys you a reduced benefit. But you don't get that benefit you paid for.. it gets cut because you paid into (or not) some other scheme.

Sure sounds like theft to me..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on July 26, 2020, 09:13:20 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 26, 2020, 08:22:56 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on July 26, 2020, 07:59:41 PM

@Exflyboy, I'm not sure that's a fair characterization of the WEP rule.  If you spent many years working for a job that didn't pay into social security and you got a pension from that job, then you already got your reward and your social security is being adjusted for the fact that you didn't really pay in.

At least that is what Google tells me.

So you work some number of years (presumably less than 35) and that buys you a reduced benefit. But you don't get that benefit you paid for.. it gets cut because you paid into (or not) some other scheme.

Sure sounds like theft to me..

I thought the rule only applied if you paid into the other pension program INSTEAD of social security. 

Did you have social security contributions witheld from your paycheck?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roboturner on July 27, 2020, 08:34:32 AM

Well, after playing footsy with 2MM for the better part of a month and half, we've successfully maintained above 2MM LNW for a couple weeks now. Ready to join. Good luck everyone!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 27, 2020, 09:05:56 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on July 27, 2020, 08:34:32 AM

Well, after playing footsy with 2MM for the better part of a month and half, we've successfully maintained above 2MM LNW for a couple weeks now. Ready to join. Good luck everyone!

It's just a number, but it still feels kind of good, doesn't it?  Welcome.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 27, 2020, 01:04:20 PM

http://

Quote from: Roboturner on July 27, 2020, 08:34:32 AM

Well, after playing footsy with 2MM for the better part of a month and half, we've successfully maintained above 2MM LNW for a couple weeks now. Ready to join. Good luck everyone!

Wow! Such an accomplishment at your age.   Job well done.  Wishing I'd been as focused.  Welcome aboard.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 27, 2020, 01:26:47 PM

I do find it interesting how recent talks about the next Covid payment and how the White House was saying they would not sign anything without reduced payroll taxes.  Well.....payroll taxes are social security and medicare.  Cut those and that 2034 date for a cut in payments gets pulled in.  Those in office won't care until the AARP folks are alerted.  They vote.  They'll vote out anyone who dares touch that 3rd rail.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 27, 2020, 03:28:56 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 27, 2020, 01:26:47 PM

I do find it interesting how recent talks about the next Covid payment and how the White House was saying they would not sign anything without reduced payroll taxes.  Well.....payroll taxes are social security and medicare.  Cut those and that 2034 date for a cut in payments gets pulled in.  Those in office won't care until the AARP folks are alerted.  They vote.  They'll vote out anyone who dares touch that 3rd rail.

From your lips to God's ears...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on July 28, 2020, 05:44:56 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on July 27, 2020, 08:34:32 AM

Well, after playing footsy with 2MM for the better part of a month and half, we've successfully maintained above 2MM LNW for a couple weeks now. Ready to join. Good luck everyone!

Wow.  At 31 in a MCOL area, that's absolutely amazing.  Can I ask what your annual expenses are? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 28, 2020, 06:44:17 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on July 27, 2020, 08:34:32 AM

Well, after playing footsy with 2MM for the better part of a month and half, we've successfully maintained above 2MM LNW for a couple weeks now. Ready to join. Good luck everyone!

I saw your post on the other thread yesterday and figured you'd turn up here soon. Congratulations and welcome aboard!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 28, 2020, 09:09:31 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 28, 2020, 06:44:17 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on July 27, 2020, 08:34:32 AM

Well, after playing footsy with 2MM for the better part of a month and half, we've successfully maintained above 2MM LNW for a couple weeks now. Ready to join. Good luck everyone!

I saw your post on the other thread yesterday and figured you'd turn up here soon. Congratulations and welcome aboard!

Well Done and Welcome!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on July 28, 2020, 10:32:40 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on July 28, 2020, 05:44:56 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on July 27, 2020, 08:34:32 AM

Well, after playing footsy with 2MM for the better part of a month and half, we've successfully maintained above 2MM LNW for a couple weeks now. Ready to join. Good luck everyone!

Wow.  At 31 in a MCOL area, that's absolutely amazing.  Can I ask what your annual expenses are?

Congratulations!  I just eeked in too and am hanging on by my fingernails.  I hope I don't have to leave again (although the people here are so kind they didn't evict me).  It feels great to be here!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on July 29, 2020, 03:32:33 AM

I also squeaked back in the club in June, then got kicked out, then back again in early July.  Hopefully this time for good but who knows?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on July 29, 2020, 03:37:16 AM

Welcome in new peeps!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 29, 2020, 09:44:08 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on July 29, 2020, 03:32:33 AM

I also squeaked back in the club in June, then got kicked out, then back again in early July.  Hopefully this time for good but who knows?

If anyone tries to kick you out, here's a guest pass (hands over pass).  You're welcome in here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 29, 2020, 09:59:45 AM

Ok so you all laid out good cases on rental properties, including the downside. Anyone have any experience with buying vacation properties as an investment?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 29, 2020, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 29, 2020, 09:59:45 AM

Ok so you all laid out good cases on rental properties, including the downside. Anyone have any experience with buying vacation properties as an investment?

There are still only 4 ways to make money on a real estate investment property whether you buy it as a regular investment or as a vacation home.   

You calculate the numbers EXACTLY the same way. 

The only difference is that you have less income than you would if it was a full time investment because every time you schedule vacation time in it you're taking away from it's rental income potential.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 29, 2020, 03:20:19 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 29, 2020, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 29, 2020, 09:59:45 AM

Ok so you all laid out good cases on rental properties, including the downside. Anyone have any experience with buying vacation properties as an investment?

There are still only 4 ways to make money on a real estate investment property whether you buy it as a regular investment or as a vacation home.   

You calculate the numbers EXACTLY the same way. 

The only difference is that you have less income than you would if it was a full time investment because every time you schedule vacation time in it you're taking away from it's rental income potential.

What are the 4 ways? Complete real estate noob here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 29, 2020, 04:28:53 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 29, 2020, 03:20:19 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 29, 2020, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 29, 2020, 09:59:45 AM

Ok so you all laid out good cases on rental properties, including the downside. Anyone have any experience with buying vacation properties as an investment?

There are still only 4 ways to make money on a real estate investment property whether you buy it as a regular investment or as a vacation home.   

You calculate the numbers EXACTLY the same way. 

The only difference is that you have less income than you would if it was a full time investment because every time you schedule vacation time in it you're taking away from it's rental income potential.

What are the 4 ways? Complete real estate noob here.

Gallinelli has a great book on Cash Flow and other measurements.   I highly recommend it.   Real estate is a numbers game and if you don't know how to run the numbers you're just gambling, not investing.

1.  Rent.   Someone pays you rent to stay there.   This is great because if it's enough you don't need MORE cash to keep the property.

2.  Equity.  You have a mortgage and your renters pay down the mortgage.   You don't see any cash until you either sell or you get more rent because the mortgage is paid off.

3. Appreciation.   The value of the property goes up over time.  You don't see any cash until you sell, but it will cause your property tax and insurance to go up.

4. Depreciation.   This is a legal provision in the US tax code that shelters some income from taxes, so you get to keep more of the income than you otherwise would.   Helps you keep your #1 Rent income or, if you sell, your Appreciation income.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 29, 2020, 05:52:49 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 29, 2020, 09:59:45 AM

Ok so you all laid out good cases on rental properties, including the downside. Anyone have any experience with buying vacation properties as an investment?

Had one on the FL panhandle (destin) with my parents 50/50 split.  In general it was not a good investment.  But it was 15 minutes from m sisters house so it worked for our family sold it in 2018 and now we just rent when we visit, we are all happier.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on July 29, 2020, 07:01:51 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 29, 2020, 04:28:53 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 29, 2020, 03:20:19 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 29, 2020, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 29, 2020, 09:59:45 AM

Ok so you all laid out good cases on rental properties, including the downside. Anyone have any experience with buying vacation properties as an investment?

There are still only 4 ways to make money on a real estate investment property whether you buy it as a regular investment or as a vacation home.   

You calculate the numbers EXACTLY the same way. 

The only difference is that you have less income than you would if it was a full time investment because every time you schedule vacation time in it you're taking away from it's rental income potential.

What are the 4 ways? Complete real estate noob here.

Gallinelli has a great book on Cash Flow and other measurements.   I highly recommend it.   Real estate is a numbers game and if you don't know how to run the numbers you're just gambling, not investing.

1.  Rent.   Someone pays you rent to stay there.   This is great because if it's enough you don't need MORE cash to keep the property.

2.  Equity.  You have a mortgage and your renters pay down the mortgage.   You don't see any cash until you either sell or you get more rent because the mortgage is paid off.

3. Appreciation.   The value of the property goes up over time.  You don't see any cash until you sell, but it will cause your property tax and insurance to go up.

4. Depreciation.   This is a legal provision in the US tax code that shelters some income from taxes, so you get to keep more of the income than you otherwise would.   Helps you keep your #1 Rent income or, if you sell, your Appreciation income.

Thanks @SwordGuy for the response and the book recommendation!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 29, 2020, 08:11:29 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 29, 2020, 04:28:53 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 29, 2020, 03:20:19 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 29, 2020, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 29, 2020, 09:59:45 AM

Ok so you all laid out good cases on rental properties, including the downside. Anyone have any experience with buying vacation properties as an investment?

There are still only 4 ways to make money on a real estate investment property whether you buy it as a regular investment or as a vacation home.   

You calculate the numbers EXACTLY the same way. 

The only difference is that you have less income than you would if it was a full time investment because every time you schedule vacation time in it you're taking away from it's rental income potential.

What are the 4 ways? Complete real estate noob here.

Gallinelli has a great book on Cash Flow and other measurements.   I highly recommend it.   Real estate is a numbers game and if you don't know how to run the numbers you're just gambling, not investing.

1.  Rent.   Someone pays you rent to stay there.   This is great because if it's enough you don't need MORE cash to keep the property.

2.  Equity.  You have a mortgage and your renters pay down the mortgage.   You don't see any cash until you either sell or you get more rent because the mortgage is paid off.

3. Appreciation.   The value of the property goes up over time.  You don't see any cash until you sell, but it will cause your property tax and insurance to go up.

4. Depreciation.   This is a legal provision in the US tax code that shelters some income from taxes, so you get to keep more of the income than you otherwise would.   Helps you keep your #1 Rent income or, if you sell, your Appreciation income.

Don't forget the depreciation recapture rules.. I.e when you sell your appreciated rental home the cost basis will be the original cost minus the sum total of amount you saved by writing off depreciation over numerous years.

E.g say you bought your home for $200k, then you write off say $10k for 10 years, the cost basis will then be 200-100 =$100k.

You then sell your home for $400k.. well then you will owe capital gains taxes on ($400-100) $300k.. not $200k.

Depreciation is great for income and ACA subsidies in the year you deduct. Its not free money however.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 29, 2020, 11:39:04 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 29, 2020, 08:11:29 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 29, 2020, 04:28:53 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on July 29, 2020, 03:20:19 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 29, 2020, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 29, 2020, 09:59:45 AM

Ok so you all laid out good cases on rental properties, including the downside. Anyone have any experience with buying vacation properties as an investment?

There are still only 4 ways to make money on a real estate investment property whether you buy it as a regular investment or as a vacation home.   

You calculate the numbers EXACTLY the same way. 

The only difference is that you have less income than you would if it was a full time investment because every time you schedule vacation time in it you're taking away from it's rental income potential.

What are the 4 ways? Complete real estate noob here.

Gallinelli has a great book on Cash Flow and other measurements.   I highly recommend it.   Real estate is a numbers game and if you don't know how to run the numbers you're just gambling, not investing.

1.  Rent.   Someone pays you rent to stay there.   This is great because if it's enough you don't need MORE cash to keep the property.

2.  Equity.  You have a mortgage and your renters pay down the mortgage.   You don't see any cash until you either sell or you get more rent because the mortgage is paid off.

3. Appreciation.   The value of the property goes up over time.  You don't see any cash until you sell, but it will cause your property tax and insurance to go up.

4. Depreciation.   This is a legal provision in the US tax code that shelters some income from taxes, so you get to keep more of the income than you otherwise would.   Helps you keep your #1 Rent income or, if you sell, your Appreciation income.

Don't forget the depreciation recapture rules.. I.e when you sell your appreciated rental home the cost basis will be the original cost minus the sum total of amount you saved by writing off depreciation over numerous years.

E.g say you bought your home for $200k, then you write off say $10k for 10 years, the cost basis will then be 200-100 =$100k.

You then sell your home for $400k.. well then you will owe capital gains taxes on ($400-100) $300k.. not $200k.

Depreciation is great for income and ACA subsidies in the year you deduct. Its not free money however.

This is true, but if you don't take it, it can also cause tax problems:

"However, not depreciating your property will not save you from the tax – the IRS levies it on the depreciation that you should have claimed, whether or not you actually did. With this in mind, depreciating your property doesn't hurt you when you sell it, but it really helps you while you own it."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on July 30, 2020, 05:58:27 AM

Depreciation defers taxes but doesn't eliminate them.  That offers some advantages because of the time value of money. 

It can be an effective strategy for high income earners trying to stay out of top brackets.

Or an estate planning strategy because the basis of the property will be stepped up at death.  (This is crazy, it's an enormous give away to the Trump / Kushner class).

For an UMC person, I think the best tax strategy is just to continually max out retirement accounts for decades.  Preferably a nice mix of regular and Roth.  Very simple but over time you can accumulate quite a lot. 

Things like sheltering income via depreciation deductions or buying municipal bonds are more powerful for people pushing into the top brackets.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 30, 2020, 06:40:58 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on July 30, 2020, 05:58:27 AM

Depreciation defers taxes but doesn't eliminate them.  That offers some advantages because of the time value of money. 

It can be an effective strategy for high income earners trying to stay out of top brackets.

Or an estate planning strategy because the basis of the property will be stepped up at death.  (This is crazy, it's an enormous give away to the Trump / Kushner class).

I believe it eliminates that tax if you never sell while you are alive.  You heirs won't have to pay it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on July 30, 2020, 06:51:20 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 30, 2020, 06:40:58 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on July 30, 2020, 05:58:27 AM

Depreciation defers taxes but doesn't eliminate them.  That offers some advantages because of the time value of money. 

It can be an effective strategy for high income earners trying to stay out of top brackets.

Or an estate planning strategy because the basis of the property will be stepped up at death.  (This is crazy, it's an enormous give away to the Trump / Kushner class).

I believe it eliminates that tax if you never sell while you are alive.  You heirs won't have to pay it.

Yes, I haven't verified by digging into the IRS publications but that's what Google tells me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 30, 2020, 08:09:38 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 30, 2020, 06:40:58 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on July 30, 2020, 05:58:27 AM

Depreciation defers taxes but doesn't eliminate them.  That offers some advantages because of the time value of money. 

It can be an effective strategy for high income earners trying to stay out of top brackets.

Or an estate planning strategy because the basis of the property will be stepped up at death.  (This is crazy, it's an enormous give away to the Trump / Kushner class).

I believe it eliminates that tax if you never sell while you are alive.  You heirs won't have to pay it.

But after the estate passes the $11.5/$23M (single/couple) limit real estate would be taxed at 40%, or whatever the rate is, right? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on July 30, 2020, 08:21:29 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 30, 2020, 08:09:38 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 30, 2020, 06:40:58 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on July 30, 2020, 05:58:27 AM

Depreciation defers taxes but doesn't eliminate them.  That offers some advantages because of the time value of money. 

It can be an effective strategy for high income earners trying to stay out of top brackets.

Or an estate planning strategy because the basis of the property will be stepped up at death.  (This is crazy, it's an enormous give away to the Trump / Kushner class).

I believe it eliminates that tax if you never sell while you are alive.  You heirs won't have to pay it.

But after the estate passes the $11.5/$23M (single/couple) limit real estate would be taxed at 40%, or whatever the rate is, right?

I believe there is no limit for the step up basis.  So Kushner's dad will depreciate his property over his life and then Kushner will get it with a stepped up basis.  But yes with inheritance taxes on amounts over $10 million.

I have no idea what strategies really rich people use to try to get around that other than aggressive lifetime giving to multiple heirs (into trusts so protected from spouses, creditors).

I like money but I am way too lazy to get to the point where that's a live concern.  If it ever looks like my wealth is going to run away (start rapidly compounding beyond FI), I'll be out windsurfing (and donating to charity).  : )

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 30, 2020, 12:28:25 PM

So curious to get some thoughts...

The salary offer for my New job finally arrived.

It was pretty much what I hoped for, so I was happy enough.

If an employer makes a good salary offer you are happy with do you make a counter offer?

I agonised over this a bit this afternoon, and then decided to go ahead and counter.

The reason why I did was because I once had a job where I just took the salary offered and then spent the next 5 years paid 10% less than the guy in the cubicle next to me doing the same job. This always made me feel slightly bitter. Comparison is the thief of joy.

So, this time I figured I’d very politely test whether there wasn’t a little more to be squeezed, just to never have to dwell on what might have been, but honestly I think the offer I got was pretty fair and I really couldn’t care if I got paid more or not (just don’t let me see what my peers are paid). I have grown a money tree now, so the salary is just a bonus whilst I get settled back into life in Australia.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 30, 2020, 08:01:07 PM

@itchyfeet, I think negotiating is a good idea.   Their first offer is rarely their best and final.  The worst that happens is you get the opening bid, which is exactly where you started from, right?

One more quirk about real estate...Don't forget the 1031 exchanges that will defer capital gains on Like Kind properties.   You can essentially roll up the gains and package them into apartments, condos, vacation rentals, farms, an office building, Self directed IRA, etc. 

 So you can go from a simple investment (say, a condo), to a more complicated one (vacation rental/strip mall) or the other way around.    Any house you live in for 2 years of the 5 years prior to the sale can gain 250,000 for a single person, or 500K for a couple of exempted capital gains.  That is a whole lot of untaxed gain, and there's no limit to how often you can do it. 

 That's a well known strategy among flippers.  Buy a fixer upper, live there and fix it up, sell it for untaxed profit 2 years later, rinse, repeat. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 31, 2020, 01:17:29 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 30, 2020, 12:28:25 PM

So curious to get some thoughts...

The salary offer for my New job finally arrived.

It was pretty much what I hoped for, so I was happy enough.

If an employer makes a good salary offer you are happy with do you make a counter offer?

I agonised over this a bit this afternoon, and then decided to go ahead and counter.

The reason why I did was because I once had a job where I just took the salary offered and then spent the next 5 years paid 10% less than the guy in the cubicle next to me doing the same job. This always made me feel slightly bitter. Comparison is the thief of joy.

So, this time I figured I’d very politely test whether there wasn’t a little more to be squeezed, just to never have to dwell on what might have been, but honestly I think the offer I got was pretty fair and I really couldn’t care if I got paid more or not (just don’t let me see what my peers are paid). I have grown a money tree now, so the salary is just a bonus whilst I get settled back into life in Australia.

Itchy bargain for the best you can get.  Our company is nickel and dime taking away our benefits.  At least I'm currently grandfathered into the pension that hasn't been offered to new hires and rehires since 2012.  The medical benefit is currently still offered to retirees who work till age 55.  On Monday I'll be eligible to early retire without medical.   I've been looking forward to that day for 28 years.  But, at this point I'm hanging on till 2023 for my 55th birthday. There are simply no safe means to make retirement money at this point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: honeyfill on July 31, 2020, 07:25:26 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 31, 2020, 01:17:29 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 30, 2020, 12:28:25 PM

So curious to get some thoughts...

The salary offer for my New job finally arrived.

It was pretty much what I hoped for, so I was happy enough.

If an employer makes a good salary offer you are happy with do you make a counter offer?

I agonised over this a bit this afternoon, and then decided to go ahead and counter.

The reason why I did was because I once had a job where I just took the salary offered and then spent the next 5 years paid 10% less than the guy in the cubicle next to me doing the same job. This always made me feel slightly bitter. Comparison is the thief of joy.

So, this time I figured I’d very politely test whether there wasn’t a little more to be squeezed, just to never have to dwell on what might have been, but honestly I think the offer I got was pretty fair and I really couldn’t care if I got paid more or not (just don’t let me see what my peers are paid). I have grown a money tree now, so the salary is just a bonus whilst I get settled back into life in Australia.

Itchy bargain for the best you can get.  Our company is nickel and dime taking away our benefits.  At least I'm currently grandfathered into the pension that hasn't been offered to new hires and rehires since 2012.  The medical benefit is currently still offered to retirees who work till age 55.  On Monday I'll be eligible to early retire without medical.   I've been looking forward to that day for 28 years.  But, at this point I'm hanging on till 2023 for my 55th birthday. There are simply no safe means to make retirement money at this point.

You should definitely counter offer. Back when I was a hiring manager in an engineering position, HR handled all the offer amounts.  They would tell me what to offer, for example $100,000.  I would then have the authority to approve up to $110,000 if the candidate made a counter.  Anything higher had to be approved by HR and the VP.  Guess what, I always accepted any counter offer up to the $110,000.  Good luck!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 31, 2020, 07:37:23 AM

I had a discussion years ago with a human resources person.  We talked in generalities as to how things were decided.  We talked about salaries.  It was a conversation.  I was not looking to change jobs at that time.  She told me something that seemed surprising at the time.  She told me that pay is ideally just the amount to keep people at their jobs.  In other words, if it was set up right, just a bit less would cause you to quit.  The wrong amount would have been more than that.

She explained that this was good for the company.  The company could pay more, but than the balance would not be available for other things.

For some, the power of individual negotiation is strong. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 31, 2020, 08:01:45 AM

I'm not a great negotiator of job offers. I am surely a little underpaid compared to my peers. However, since I hope to retire in 3 years, and this job really is to get me into a house and see my spouse and I through the current upheaval in our lives, I didn't think it was worth the effort/stress to negotiate. The offer was actually extremely similar to my old job once I accounted for the lower cost of living anyway. Heck, I'm actually saving more money now that we have moved out of MegaCity USA.

We are in a unique spot financially right now, in we have NO liabilities at the moment, all our money is in financial instruments. That'll change once we close our house currently being built though.

I'm curious, how much have people in this group pared down living expenses once retired? Are people here fat retired, or slimmed to only spending say the median average US household income?

I'm literally working right now to get into our new house, so the mortgage company doesn't throw a fit if I'm not employed. Once in the house the temptation to retire will be come high, especially once we become pretty settled in the new house.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 31, 2020, 09:01:12 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 31, 2020, 08:01:45 AM

I'm curious, how much have people in this group pared down living expenses once retired? Are people here fat retired, or slimmed to only spending say the median average US household income?

I think you'll get a range of answers to that one. For the two of us we spend about $32k per year post Covid. When we were travelling I think we spent somewhere nearer $52k. We don't feel we are depriving ourselves.

Of course nobody in this part of the forum is average, We have taken steps to minimise our RE taxes (we have a "farm"), paid off the mortgage, never send a car to a mechanic or hire any trades person for any reason. We have 5 sources of income in addition to about $2.3M in investments.

Using the 4% rule we could today spend about $145k/year... So a brand new C8 Corvette in addition to our most spendy year so far.. Then crash it and buy another one each and every year!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 31, 2020, 09:41:48 AM

I am semi-retired. Our normal spending will be about $50,000 ~ $60,000 per year. But we are targeting at least $100,000 a year for enhanced travels and entertainments in retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 31, 2020, 12:06:10 PM

 I’m looking for having a pretty flexible budget in retirement, expecting to spend big in some years and not much in others.

Well they havent come back on my counter yet. I have a call with the coCEO on Monday, which was set up independent of my salary offer, we shall see what he has to say.

3 weeks till I fly home to Australia. After 6 years abroad I am really looking forward to being on home turf for a bit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 31, 2020, 12:19:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 31, 2020, 09:01:12 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 31, 2020, 08:01:45 AM

I'm curious, how much have people in this group pared down living expenses once retired? Are people here fat retired, or slimmed to only spending say the median average US household income?

I think you'll get a range of answers to that one. For the two of us we spend about $32k per year post Covid. When we were travelling I think we spent somewhere nearer $52k. We don't feel we are depriving ourselves.

Of course nobody in this part of the forum is average, We have taken steps to minimise our RE taxes (we have a "farm"), paid off the mortgage, never send a car to a mechanic or hire any trades person for any reason. We have 5 sources of income in addition to about $2.3M in investments.

Using the 4% rule we could today spend about $145k/year... So a brand new C8 Corvette in addition to our most spendy year so far.. Then crash it and buy another one each and every year!

No need to crash the C8 Corvettes, I'll take one off your hands!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on July 31, 2020, 01:15:30 PM

I probably pared down living expenses by A$10k a year in retirement. So from A$28k down to A$18k for me. This was without trying, as I had enough already. My stash has been growing each year (probably not this year, since our stock market has gone down somewhat). We have something similar to a 401k called superannuation, which is tax free in retirement, and you must take out a certain percentage each year. If you have enough in it, you can’t add to it. They halved the percentage to be taken out for 2019/20 and 2020/21 (our financial and tax years are July to June), so I took advantage of that because I have enough. Our finances have always been separate, but SO is similar. Travel is an additional expense, depending on where I want to go, and how much I’ve got.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on August 01, 2020, 07:45:19 AM

We're spending more, now that we realize we've got more than enough and we can't take it with us.   We have multiple sources of income. 

Before Covid, we had an intensive travel schedule of 6+ trips a year.  That was our main indulgence and a big expense.    Much of it was Frugal travel, or as some would say, "the high low lifestyle," meaning bargain shopping for luxury as the occasion warrants.   I don't regret a moment of it. 

 Laissez les bons moments rouler! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 01, 2020, 08:39:14 AM

I was curious because how long I work over the next 3 years makes a big difference on how slim or fat my retirement is. Gritting my teeth and putting up with work is a daily challenge. But I am learning I am only willing to downgrade my lifestyle so much. Heck if my spouse and I were willing to just rent a two bedroom apt for the next 10-15 years I could retire today (and presumably sell investments at that point to buy a place then). But if I work the next few years, get settled into a house, then I could retire. First world problems.

I am currently renting while our house is being built. I would lose a modest deposit if I backed out, but I also would feel guilty for doing that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 01, 2020, 09:48:03 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 01, 2020, 08:39:14 AM

I was curious because how long I work over the next 3 years makes a big difference on how slim or fat my retirement is. Gritting my teeth and putting up with work is a daily challenge. But I am learning I am only willing to downgrade my lifestyle so much. Heck if my spouse and I were willing to just rent a two bedroom apt for the next 10-15 years I could retire today (and presumably sell investments at that point to buy a place then). But if I work the next few years, get settled into a house, then I could retire. First world problems.

I am currently renting while our house is being built. I would lose a modest deposit if I backed out, but I also would feel guilty for doing that.

How much is "enough" is such a simple question, but so hard to answer. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 01, 2020, 10:33:37 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 01, 2020, 09:48:03 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 01, 2020, 08:39:14 AM

I was curious because how long I work over the next 3 years makes a big difference on how slim or fat my retirement is. Gritting my teeth and putting up with work is a daily challenge. But I am learning I am only willing to downgrade my lifestyle so much. Heck if my spouse and I were willing to just rent a two bedroom apt for the next 10-15 years I could retire today (and presumably sell investments at that point to buy a place then). But if I work the next few years, get settled into a house, then I could retire. First world problems.

I am currently renting while our house is being built. I would lose a modest deposit if I backed out, but I also would feel guilty for doing that.

How much is "enough" is such a simple question, but so hard to answer.

"About double what you have now".. There, simple..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on August 01, 2020, 12:36:19 PM

I can always find something to make the enough not enough.

Last year, my wife and I found that going to casinos regularly should be a routine in our retirement, we had to add $20k to our annual spending model, and probably need to work for two more years to cover that hobby.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 01, 2020, 01:15:16 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on August 01, 2020, 12:36:19 PM

I can always find something to make the enough not enough.

Last year, my wife and I found that going to casinos regularly should be a routine in our retirement, we had to add $20k to our annual spending model, and probably need to work for two more years to cover that hobby.

Since you like to gamble, why don't you & the Mrs. draw straws to see who needs to keep working?   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 01, 2020, 01:46:44 PM

Every once in a while I'll run into someone who either has or has had health problems.  After talking to them and walking away with no pain, I realize I have plenty.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 01, 2020, 02:26:16 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 01, 2020, 01:46:44 PM

Every once in a while I'll run into someone who either has or has had health problems.  After talking to them and walking away with no pain, I realize I have plenty.

Very true, couldn’t agree more. My logical brain knows this, but not my lizard brain.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 01, 2020, 02:27:27 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on August 01, 2020, 12:36:19 PM

I can always find something to make the enough not enough.

Last year, my wife and I found that going to casinos regularly should be a routine in our retirement, we had to add $20k to our annual spending model, and probably need to work for two more years to cover that hobby.

I thought I was the only on this board who like to do such an un-Mustachian thing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on August 01, 2020, 02:39:19 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 01, 2020, 01:15:16 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on August 01, 2020, 12:36:19 PM

I can always find something to make the enough not enough.

Last year, my wife and I found that going to casinos regularly should be a routine in our retirement, we had to add $20k to our annual spending model, and probably need to work for two more years to cover that hobby.

Since you like to gamble, why don't you & the Mrs. draw straws to see who needs to keep working?

We don't like gambling, we just view it as entertainment, fun and good food. If you know that you are bound to lose, how do you call it gambling?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on August 01, 2020, 02:40:32 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 01, 2020, 02:27:27 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on August 01, 2020, 12:36:19 PM

I can always find something to make the enough not enough.

Last year, my wife and I found that going to casinos regularly should be a routine in our retirement, we had to add $20k to our annual spending model, and probably need to work for two more years to cover that hobby.

I thought I was the only on this board who like to do such an un-Mustachian thing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you are in this group, you are not a true Mustachian.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 01, 2020, 02:41:45 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on August 01, 2020, 02:40:32 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 01, 2020, 02:27:27 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on August 01, 2020, 12:36:19 PM

I can always find something to make the enough not enough.

Last year, my wife and I found that going to casinos regularly should be a routine in our retirement, we had to add $20k to our annual spending model, and probably need to work for two more years to cover that hobby.

I thought I was the only on this board who like to do such an un-Mustachian thing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you are in this group, you are not a true Mustachian.

Touché


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on August 02, 2020, 08:56:01 AM

The true Mustachians start talking about retirement as soon as they reach $500K.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 02, 2020, 09:15:34 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on August 02, 2020, 08:56:01 AM

The true Mustachians start talking about retirement as soon as they reach $500K.

I thought it was $100k. Isn’t $500k fat FI?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on August 02, 2020, 10:12:06 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 01, 2020, 01:46:44 PM

Every once in a while I'll run into someone who either has or has had health problems.  After talking to them and walking away with no pain, I realize I have plenty.

Yes. I’m writing this in my wife’s hospital room. Day 4. She’s taking a nap after getting her pain meds.

Just make sure your plenty includes a reasonable amount for healthcare. We should be good, as long as the ACA (or something similar) remains. We most definitely have a pre-existing condition. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 02, 2020, 01:19:24 PM

Quote from: AdrianC on August 02, 2020, 10:12:06 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 01, 2020, 01:46:44 PM

Every once in a while I'll run into someone who either has or has had health problems.  After talking to them and walking away with no pain, I realize I have plenty.

Yes. I’m writing this in my wife’s hospital room. Day 4. She’s taking a nap after getting her pain meds.

Just make sure your plenty includes a reasonable amount for healthcare. We should be good, as long as the ACA (or something similar) remains. We most definitely have a pre-existing condition.

I understand completely.   Son had cancer at 14.  He's a college graduate and working full time now.  Still has lots of issues.  The ACA kept us from bankruptcy.   Wife just had full knee replacement surgery.   She's out of work for a while and the surgery and recovery would be crazy expensive without good health coverage.   .  FIRE dream on hold till reasonable health coverage can be guaranteed.   That's at age 55.  At 52 I've already squandered away most of the good years.  Investing more lifetime seems the best answer till there is more certainty.   There is nowhere you can invest to replicate a paycheck without a high degree of risk right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 02, 2020, 03:56:29 PM

Quote from: AdrianC on August 02, 2020, 10:12:06 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 01, 2020, 01:46:44 PM

Every once in a while I'll run into someone who either has or has had health problems.  After talking to them and walking away with no pain, I realize I have plenty.

Yes. I’m writing this in my wife’s hospital room. Day 4. She’s taking a nap after getting her pain meds.

Just make sure your plenty includes a reasonable amount for healthcare. We should be good, as long as the ACA (or something similar) remains. We most definitely have a pre-existing condition.

Good luck with that - and I did put off retirement quite a while until the health care thing was assured.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on August 02, 2020, 06:28:44 PM

You cannot buy back good health no matter how much money you have.

Enjoy your good time while you can.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 03, 2020, 12:07:09 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 02, 2020, 01:19:24 PM

Quote from: AdrianC on August 02, 2020, 10:12:06 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 01, 2020, 01:46:44 PM

Every once in a while I'll run into someone who either has or has had health problems.  After talking to them and walking away with no pain, I realize I have plenty.

Yes. I’m writing this in my wife’s hospital room. Day 4. She’s taking a nap after getting her pain meds.

Just make sure your plenty includes a reasonable amount for healthcare. We should be good, as long as the ACA (or something similar) remains. We most definitely have a pre-existing condition.

I understand completely.   Son had cancer at 14.  He's a college graduate and working full time now.  Still has lots of issues.  The ACA kept us from bankruptcy.   Wife just had full knee replacement surgery.   She's out of work for a while and the surgery and recovery would be crazy expensive without good health coverage.   .  FIRE dream on hold till reasonable health coverage can be guaranteed.   That's at age 55.  At 52 I've already squandered away most of the good years.  Investing more lifetime seems the best answer till there is more certainty.   There is nowhere you can invest to replicate a paycheck without a high degree of risk right now.

Sure, but it’ll be forever before you run out of money so does it really matter if you spend the next 20 years chewing through savings?

... but I am a hypocrite and am trying to build Fort Knox to protect my retirement. 😂

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 04, 2020, 10:26:14 AM

I've been car shopping since last year.  I'm waiting for just the right deal on the right vehicle.  Are we able to car shop nearly a year because we can afford to or can we afford to because we car shop for a year?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 04, 2020, 10:51:28 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 04, 2020, 10:26:14 AM

I've been car shopping since last year.  I'm waiting for just the right deal on the right vehicle.  Are we able to car shop nearly a year because we can afford to or can we afford to because we car shop for a year?

If you needed one you'd have made up your mind by now.  ;)


Somebody must be buying cars these days.  I bought up a few stocks in April & LAD (a car dealership group) has been my best pick, up over 120%.   Seems like a crazy time for most folks to buy a car, but what do I know?  Maybe they used their stimulus checks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 04, 2020, 11:04:14 AM

The time is near.  I ran from the cops Saturday because there was an inspection checkpoint.  I haven't passed inspection in two years and the repairs are more than the value of the car.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 04, 2020, 11:34:35 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 04, 2020, 11:04:14 AM

The time is near.  I ran from the cops Saturday because there was an inspection checkpoint.  I haven't passed inspection in two years and the repairs are more than the value of the car.

What do they do to you if your car fails an inspection?... You get stuffed into a private jet and whisked off to a CIA black site for more "questioning"?

Asking for a friend.. Plus we don't have inspections in Oregon outside of Portland.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 04, 2020, 11:46:36 AM

It's about a $500 fine.  They post a huge orange sticker on your windshield and give you a week to fix and inspect the car.  They can impound the car.  Then you have towing and recovery.

 Drivers found in violation of not having an up-to-date inspection sticker face a maximum $500 penalty and possible jail time of up to six months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 04, 2020, 11:49:11 AM

The 2008 Accord has 219000 miles.  There are 4 brands and two different size tires on it.  Multiple trouble codes including the catalytic converter.  Air conditioning only works when moving.  The struts are blown and the rear end wobbles.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 04, 2020, 11:51:53 AM

$500.. Geez!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 04, 2020, 11:57:18 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 04, 2020, 11:49:11 AM

The 2008 Accord has 219000 miles.  There are 4 brands and two different size tires on it.  Multiple trouble codes including the catalytic converter.  Air conditioning only works when moving.  The struts are blown and the rear end wobbles.

Um, time to donate that car to charity and get the new one. I have a headache just reading this! ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 04, 2020, 03:01:04 PM

Amazing to think there are multimillionaires who write posts discussing their 220,000 mile junker cars..:)

These are my people..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 04, 2020, 06:19:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 04, 2020, 03:01:04 PM

Amazing to think there are multimillionaires who write posts discussing their 220,000 mile junker cars..:)

These are my people..:)

That car is not finished.  If I can get it to the Florida house, Florida has no inspections.  It's going to be my Gambler.  The Gambler 500 rallys are where you take a $500 car and rally through swamps, mountains and roadways.   I've been looking forward to this for years.   
https://youtu.be/cHcaykLqTO8

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 05, 2020, 04:41:22 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 04, 2020, 11:34:35 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 04, 2020, 11:04:14 AM

The time is near.  I ran from the cops Saturday because there was an inspection checkpoint.  I haven't passed inspection in two years and the repairs are more than the value of the car.

What do they do to you if your car fails an inspection?... You get stuffed into a private jet and whisked off to a CIA black site for more "questioning"?

Asking for a friend.. Plus we don't have inspections in Oregon outside of Portland.

You get fined if your safety sticker is out of date. It’s all about the revenue.

The objective of course is to have a safe vehicle and not fail the inspection. Some shops look upon the safety inspection as an opportunity to maximize their short term revenue and will identify all sorts of silly repairs that have little if any bearing on safety. Other shops take a more reserved and common sense approach. Those shops should get your business.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 05, 2020, 05:24:17 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 04, 2020, 03:01:04 PM

Amazing to think there are multimillionaires who write posts discussing their 220,000 mile junker cars..:)

These are my people..:)

“Junker” is such an ugly word. I prefer “fine vintage automobile for those of discerning tastes.”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on August 05, 2020, 07:19:30 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 04, 2020, 10:51:28 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 04, 2020, 10:26:14 AM

I've been car shopping since last year.  I'm waiting for just the right deal on the right vehicle.  Are we able to car shop nearly a year because we can afford to or can we afford to because we car shop for a year?

If you needed one you'd have made up your mind by now.  ;)


Somebody must be buying cars these days.  I bought up a few stocks in April & LAD (a car dealership group) has been my best pick, up over 120%.   Seems like a crazy time for most folks to buy a car, but what do I know?  Maybe they used their stimulus checks.

Cars are the new security net-if things get bad, I will just live in my car! I have heard that twice in the past week to justify car buying. Campers and trucks are also extremely popular-my DH is looking hard at them. Ugh.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 07:24:18 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 05, 2020, 04:41:22 AM

 Those shops should get your business.

My "business"????... I'm a cheap assed multimillionaire who has never sent a car to any shop apart from tire changes/alignments..

There is no my business...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 05, 2020, 07:43:38 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 07:24:18 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 05, 2020, 04:41:22 AM

 Those shops should get your business.

My "business"????... I'm a cheap assed multimillionaire who has never sent a car to any shop apart from tire changes/alignments..

There is no my business...:)

If you need a safety sticker, doing your own maintenance all the time can prove expensive.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 08:05:22 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 05, 2020, 07:43:38 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 07:24:18 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 05, 2020, 04:41:22 AM

 Those shops should get your business.

My "business"????... I'm a cheap assed multimillionaire who has never sent a car to any shop apart from tire changes/alignments..

There is no my business...:)

If you need a safety sticker, doing your own maintenance all the time can prove expensive.

Why would it be any different to when you don't need a safety sticker? I don't drive my cars around with the check engine light on and everything always works so whats the difference?

Not arguing, just asking..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 05, 2020, 12:06:23 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 08:05:22 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 05, 2020, 07:43:38 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 07:24:18 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 05, 2020, 04:41:22 AM

 Those shops should get your business.

My "business"????... I'm a cheap assed multimillionaire who has never sent a car to any shop apart from tire changes/alignments..

There is no my business...:)

If you need a safety sticker, doing your own maintenance all the time can prove expensive.

Why would it be any different to when you don't need a safety sticker? I don't drive my cars around with the check engine light on and everything always works so whats the difference?

Not arguing, just asking..

Because doing it all yourself doesn’t allow you to develop a relationship with a repair shop that will help you avoid any expensive safety issues that will be identified on the annual inspection. You can ask ahead of time: hey, what do you see that’s going to cause me to fail the inspection? Fix that ahead of time and pass.

They lose money on the inspections. You don’t want them to see you and your vehicle as a one time opportunity to be made whole.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on August 05, 2020, 12:22:09 PM

The independent mechanic I use for only repairs I can't do does not do state safety inspections.  Not an uncommon thing in Massachusetts, where mostly gas stations contain the safety inspection stations.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 12:46:10 PM

Thats two things in life I will avoid like the plague.. States with safety inspections and HOAs!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 05, 2020, 01:37:09 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 12:46:10 PM

Thats two things in life I will avoid like the plague.. States with safety inspections and HOAs!!

You got me a bit curious about Home Ownership Associations (HOAs).  According to this article one in five homes in the US are part of these.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/mortgages-real-estate/08/homeowners-associations-tips.asp (https://www.investopedia.com/articles/mortgages-real-estate/08/homeowners-associations-tips.asp)

I'm with you in not wanting to give up my freedom.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 02:34:58 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 05, 2020, 01:37:09 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 12:46:10 PM

Thats two things in life I will avoid like the plague.. States with safety inspections and HOAs!!

You got me a bit curious about Home Ownership Associations (HOAs).  According to this article one in five homes in the US are part of these.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/mortgages-real-estate/08/homeowners-associations-tips.asp (https://www.investopedia.com/articles/mortgages-real-estate/08/homeowners-associations-tips.asp)

I'm with you in not wanting to give up my freedom.

I would rent before I bought into one of these!

I mean Americans bang on about how free they are (like you have the same freedoms as 80% of the rest of the World), but then voluntarily give up the the right to do what you want on YOUR property and pay for the privilege!

I come from an evil Socialist country and we don't know WTF HOA's are!

OK, now you got me all excited..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 05, 2020, 03:40:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 02:34:58 PM

I come from an evil Socialist country and we don't know WTF HOA's are!

HOAs were invented by white American racists to force some areas to stay whites only.   I kid you not.

The property we just moved into has a voluntary association (as opposed to a mandatory one that has power over your property).  In decades past it was a mandatory association.   I read thru the organization documents, which included the prior charters as well as the current one.    The original one required that the lots only be sold to people who were Caucasian.   

That is no longer in effect and hasn't been for a few decades. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on August 05, 2020, 04:14:10 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 05, 2020, 03:40:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 02:34:58 PM

I come from an evil Socialist country and we don't know WTF HOA's are!

HOAs were invented by white American racists to force some areas to stay whites only.   I kid you not.

The property we just moved into has a voluntary association (as opposed to a mandatory one that has power over your property).  In decades past it was a mandatory association.   I read thru the organization documents, which included the prior charters as well as the current one.    The original one required that the lots only be sold to people who were Caucasian.   

That is no longer in effect and hasn't been for a few decades.

And only the right kind of white people at that. Not that white trash - white skin, but don't act proper.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 04:59:10 PM

Wow HOAs are actually starting to make sense now.. A bit like why we now have a racist thug in the White house after we had one of them there BLACK PEOPLE in there.

Geez!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 05, 2020, 08:37:33 PM

I went out and purchased a new to me Ford Expedition XL.  It's a 2015 nicely equipped with 87K miles.  Paid $20,900 before taxes and fees.   Not too bad.  It was at Ford dealer and they did have all the maintenance up to date including 4 new tires and a battery.  The leather interior is pretty much flawless and the paint perfect.  It has the turbo V6 Ecoboost.  I'm more the V8 non turbo type, but it really is a powerful engine.  We leave for the Florida house Sunday should be a very comfortable ride.  The inspection sticker is good till July 2021 so no need to run if I come upon an inspection road block again.  Most importantly, the wife is happy with it, so it's all good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on August 06, 2020, 12:56:12 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 02, 2020, 09:15:34 AM

I thought it was $100k. Isn’t $500k fat FI?

It was for me, and it looks like I over-saved. Spending continues to drop and portfolio keeps going to da moooon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on August 06, 2020, 06:28:54 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 05, 2020, 08:37:33 PM

I went out and purchased a new to me Ford Expedition XL.  It's a 2015 nicely equipped with 87K miles.  Paid $20,900 before taxes and fees.   Not too bad.  It was at Ford dealer and they did have all the maintenance up to date including 4 new tires and a battery.  The leather interior is pretty much flawless and the paint perfect.  It has the turbo V6 Ecoboost.  I'm more the V8 non turbo type, but it really is a powerful engine.  We leave for the Florida house Sunday should be a very comfortable ride.  The inspection sticker is good till July 2021 so no need to run if I come upon an inspection road block again.  Most importantly, the wife is happy with it, so it's all good.

What about your car that has inspection problems? Traded in?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 06, 2020, 08:43:33 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 12:46:10 PM

Thats two things in life I will avoid like the plague.. States with safety inspections and HOAs!!

Our next landing spot will hopefully have neither. HOAs are non-negotiable for us. There are enough petty authoritarians and busybodies out there. No reason to embrace that suck.

The safety inspections and emissions checks are tougher to avoid. I guess I could always get an “antique” vehicle that doesn’t require the inspection or emissions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 06, 2020, 08:48:18 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on August 06, 2020, 06:28:54 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 05, 2020, 08:37:33 PM

I went out and purchased a new to me Ford Expedition XL.  It's a 2015 nicely equipped with 87K miles.  Paid $20,900 before taxes and fees.   Not too bad.  It was at Ford dealer and they did have all the maintenance up to date including 4 new tires and a battery.  The leather interior is pretty much flawless and the paint perfect.  It has the turbo V6 Ecoboost.  I'm more the V8 non turbo type, but it really is a powerful engine.  We leave for the Florida house Sunday should be a very comfortable ride.  The inspection sticker is good till July 2021 so no need to run if I come upon an inspection road block again.  Most importantly, the wife is happy with it, so it's all good.

What about your car that has inspection problems? Traded in?

Yeah really. What happened to that vintage piece of wonderfulness?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 06, 2020, 09:04:41 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on August 06, 2020, 12:56:12 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 02, 2020, 09:15:34 AM

I thought it was $100k. Isn’t $500k fat FI?

It was for me, and it looks like I over-saved. Spending continues to drop and portfolio keeps going to da moooon.

I guess I just don’t know how to live a truly modest lifestyle, or I’m just way to conservative in my assumptions.

I did a couple months ago ask the hubby hey, do we want to sell everything, rent a little apt and travel the US in an RV. He didn’t bite.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on August 06, 2020, 10:42:38 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 06, 2020, 09:04:41 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on August 06, 2020, 12:56:12 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 02, 2020, 09:15:34 AM

I thought it was $100k. Isn’t $500k fat FI?

It was for me, and it looks like I over-saved. Spending continues to drop and portfolio keeps going to da moooon.

I guess I just don’t know how to live a truly modest lifestyle, or I’m just way to conservative in my assumptions.

I did a couple months ago ask the hubby hey, do we want to sell everything, rent a little apt and travel the US in an RV. He didn’t bite.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I also have that urge sometimes. But I have visited 51 countries and areas, and all 50 U.S. States. The remaining countries are usually not so safe to travel in my opinion, middle east, Africa, etc.
But slow travel may still be a thing in our future life, provided that my wife does not want to bring families of her friends to travel with us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 06, 2020, 01:46:35 PM

My hedonistic dream is to sell the house and move to the Philippines with unlimited tropical SCUBA diving.

I would have a housekeeper and never cook another meal or wash dishes as long as I lived.

Healthcare is reasonably OK and dirt cheap.

DW loves working the farmette and her gardening so its not going to happen, which is probably a good thing overall.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 06, 2020, 02:20:07 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on August 06, 2020, 06:28:54 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 05, 2020, 08:37:33 PM

I went out and purchased a new to me Ford Expedition XL.  It's a 2015 nicely equipped with 87K miles.  Paid $20,900 before taxes and fees.   Not too bad.  It was at Ford dealer and they did have all the maintenance up to date including 4 new tires and a battery.  The leather interior is pretty much flawless and the paint perfect.  It has the turbo V6 Ecoboost.  I'm more the V8 non turbo type, but it really is a powerful engine.  We leave for the Florida house Sunday should be a very comfortable ride.  The inspection sticker is good till July 2021 so no need to run if I come upon an inspection road block again.  Most importantly, the wife is happy with it, so it's all good.

What about your car that has inspection problems? Traded in?

Will probably sell it or donate it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 06, 2020, 02:22:20 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 06, 2020, 01:46:35 PM

My hedonistic dream is to sell the house and move to the Philippines with unlimited tropical SCUBA diving.

I would have a housekeeper and never cook another meal or wash dishes as long as I lived.

Healthcare is reasonably OK and dirt cheap.

DW loves working the farmette and her gardening so its not going to happen, which is probably a good thing overall.

Bet she could garden and grow things in the Philippines too...    And afford a gardener to help with the heavy stuff... :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 06, 2020, 02:24:01 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 06, 2020, 01:46:35 PM

My hedonistic dream is to sell the house and move to the Philippines with unlimited tropical SCUBA diving.

I would have a housekeeper and never cook another meal or wash dishes as long as I lived.

Healthcare is reasonably OK and dirt cheap.

DW loves working the farmette and her gardening so its not going to happen, which is probably a good thing overall.

I could handle a foreign country, my wife couldn't.   That SCUBA sounds great.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 06, 2020, 02:41:05 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 06, 2020, 02:24:01 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 06, 2020, 01:46:35 PM

My hedonistic dream is to sell the house and move to the Philippines with unlimited tropical SCUBA diving.

I would have a housekeeper and never cook another meal or wash dishes as long as I lived.

Healthcare is reasonably OK and dirt cheap.

DW loves working the farmette and her gardening so its not going to happen, which is probably a good thing overall.

I could handle a foreign country, my wife couldn't.   That SCUBA sounds great.

https://animals.mom.me/kinds-sharks-philippines-7683.html (https://animals.mom.me/kinds-sharks-philippines-7683.html)

It may not be the tropics with a gardener and housekeeper, but you do have someone to pump your gas in Oregon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 06, 2020, 05:02:27 PM

Marriage can be sort'a like buying into an HOA.  Except you don't know all the rules until after you're in it.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 06, 2020, 06:37:27 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 06, 2020, 05:02:27 PM

Marriage can be sort'a like buying into an HOA.  Except you don't know all the rules until after you're in it.  ;)

Ouch!... He says thinking about how its our 20th Wedding anniversary this month..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 06, 2020, 06:57:59 PM

All the new developments in my area are HOA’s. It’s the way the local government prefers it.  That way they don’t have to pay for road repair, since all the roads are technically private.  Honestly my HOA is ok, they don’t like fences and sheds otherwise it’s mainly for roads and trash pickup. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 06, 2020, 07:31:42 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 06, 2020, 06:57:59 PM

All the new developments in my area are HOA’s. It’s the way the local government prefers it.  That way they don’t have to pay for road repair, since all the roads are technically private.  Honestly my HOA is ok, they don’t like fences and sheds otherwise it’s mainly for roads and trash pickup.

You're only a couple of new board members away from being in an entirely different kind of HOA.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on August 07, 2020, 05:48:47 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 12:46:10 PM

Thats two things in life I will avoid like the plague.. States with safety inspections and HOAs!!

That's gold, right there!

I'm sure other states do this too.....in my town, I know for sure that the police run plate readers from their cars always.  My wife and one other car were pulled over a couple years ago at night, in the rain for inspection not valid.  We had bought the car from her father and the sticker was only a couple months old.  But any purchase has to be inspected when registered.  The reader obviously is tied in to see when the sticker was issued.  Only a warning and I got the car inspected the next day.  I forget the fine if it were a ticket but here, it's considered a moving violation which typically costs a grand over 6 years because you lose safe driver credits.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 07, 2020, 06:32:28 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on August 07, 2020, 05:48:47 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 12:46:10 PM

Thats two things in life I will avoid like the plague.. States with safety inspections and HOAs!!

That's gold, right there!

I'm sure other states do this too.....in my town, I know for sure that the police run plate readers from their cars always.  My wife and one other car were pulled over a couple years ago at night, in the rain for inspection not valid.  We had bought the car from her father and the sticker was only a couple months old.  But any purchase has to be inspected when registered.  The reader obviously is tied in to see when the sticker was issued.  Only a warning and I got the car inspected the next day.  I forget the fine if it were a ticket but here, it's considered a moving violation which typically costs a grand over 6 years because you lose safe driver credits.

It’s all about the revenue. A shakedown sanctioned by law. Happily it can be somewhat planned around and avoided.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 07, 2020, 10:05:27 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 07, 2020, 06:32:28 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on August 07, 2020, 05:48:47 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 05, 2020, 12:46:10 PM

Thats two things in life I will avoid like the plague.. States with safety inspections and HOAs!!

That's gold, right there!

I'm sure other states do this too.....in my town, I know for sure that the police run plate readers from their cars always.  My wife and one other car were pulled over a couple years ago at night, in the rain for inspection not valid.  We had bought the car from her father and the sticker was only a couple months old.  But any purchase has to be inspected when registered.  The reader obviously is tied in to see when the sticker was issued.  Only a warning and I got the car inspected the next day.  I forget the fine if it were a ticket but here, it's considered a moving violation which typically costs a grand over 6 years because you lose safe driver credits.

It’s all about the revenue. A shakedown sanctioned by law. Happily it can be somewhat planned around and avoided.

Land of the Free!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roboturner on August 07, 2020, 01:25:18 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on July 28, 2020, 05:44:56 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on July 27, 2020, 08:34:32 AM

Well, after playing footsy with 2MM for the better part of a month and half, we've successfully maintained above 2MM LNW for a couple weeks now. Ready to join. Good luck everyone!

Wow.  At 31 in a MCOL area, that's absolutely amazing.  Can I ask what your annual expenses are?

Thanks all!

We've been running about 25k/yr for the past few years + another 40k/year in P&I on the mortgage. Don't go out due to dietary restrictions for my better half which helps. The real key is we're DINKs with healthy salaries for the time being.

I think we're getting close to winding down, SO probably in the next year, I'm aiming for 3-5, mostly due to golden handcuffs and being young enough in prime earn years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on August 08, 2020, 12:12:01 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on August 07, 2020, 01:25:18 PM

Thanks all!

We've been running about 25k/yr for the past few years + another 40k/year in P&I on the mortgage. Don't go out due to dietary restrictions for my better half which helps. The real key is we're DINKs with healthy salaries for the time being.

I think we're getting close to winding down, SO probably in the next year, I'm aiming for 3-5, mostly due to golden handcuffs and being young enough in prime earn years.

That is superstar spending! My hat's off to ya. DW and I had very similar expenses (+rent) and it helped accelerate the path to leanFI. Are you planning on having kids in the future?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 08, 2020, 10:36:44 PM

Getting back on topic.. I decided to check out our networth today.

Holy crap We are currently about $100k above our previous all time high!

I can't believe the stock and bond markets will stay up around these levels with the economy in tatters but we'll take it for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 09, 2020, 01:10:58 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 08, 2020, 10:36:44 PM

Getting back on topic.. I decided to check out our networth today.
Holy crap We are currently about $100k above our previous all time high!
I can't believe the stock and bond markets will stay up around these levels with the economy in tatters but we'll take it for now.

Yup, apparently these are good times!  I'm still employed, so I have a bit of an aloof attitude toward needing the markets to stay up, but it might not be sustainable...  Who knows when Uncle Sam's multi-trillion dollar credit line will come due, and it's gonna suck when we have to start reassuring the borrowers that we're good for it.  Not only will we have to balance the budget, we'll also have to start actually paying interest!  I highly doubt Trump is up to the task, given his pattern reliance on default and bankruptcy. Seems like his only negotiating tool - to be so weak and useless that you give up on trying to secure anything of value from him.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 09, 2020, 06:19:42 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 08, 2020, 10:36:44 PM

Getting back on topic.. I decided to check out our networth today.

Holy crap We are currently about $100k above our previous all time high!

I can't believe the stock and bond markets will stay up around these levels with the economy in tatters but we'll take it for now.

Did an early morning evaluation.  Working today and driving to Florida house tonight.  Every time we go it's harder to leave.  I normally don't include real estate in NW calculations.  So today I did.  2.9 million total is my very conservative estimate.  Of that, 2.5 million is liquid.  Counting down, 1054 days to go.  Properly using my paid days off only 439 work days till June 2023.  I can take a week off every month till then.  Not so bad.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 09, 2020, 06:49:40 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 08, 2020, 10:36:44 PM

Getting back on topic.. I decided to check out our networth today.

Holy crap We are currently about $100k above our previous all time high!

I can't believe the stock and bond markets will stay up around these levels with the economy in tatters but we'll take it for now.

I just checked and we are now at

Spoiler: show

5.2 million

in invested assets - our highest ever too :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 09, 2020, 08:33:50 AM

So today I had a kinda eureka moment. My issue has been how to bridge the gap between now (age 46) and 55. One I hit 55 I have deferred comp from 55-70, and then I'll take social security at 70. Along the way I'd supplement it with savings/IRAs.

My eureka moment is taking the my pension lump sum from my old employer now and use that, in conjunction with an IRA SEPP and savings, to get to 55. The lump sum is worth $280k today, but if I start the payout it's only $1050 a month. The payout is dismal unless I wait to take it until full retirement (65).

So, I could delay the pension until say 70, and that with social security would give me a nice guaranteed income. I could then use my IRAs (paying 10% penalty) and draw that down to 70. It won't 100% gone, but it'll be significantly used up. Seems kinda risky in a way though I think. Drain IRAs early, and use guaranteed pension and SS after 70.

OR, I take my lump sum pension, use that and savings and a SEPP to get to 55, and that gives my IRAs plenty of time go grow more. IRAs and social security should be enough past 70.

Thoughts? As you can tell, I have many options on how/when to access money. I can now literally taste retirement if I go the take the pension lump sum today route. I do feel like IRAs and social security should be enough to give me a secure retirement after 70.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on August 09, 2020, 08:43:20 AM

You could live off the lump sum for 5 years while you set up a Roth conversion ladder. This would be more flexible than SEPP, which you would have to carry through to 59.5, rather than 55.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 09, 2020, 08:47:55 AM

Quote from: ixtap on August 09, 2020, 08:43:20 AM

You could live off the lump sum for 5 years while you set up a Roth conversion ladder. This would be more flexible than SEPP, which you would have to carry through to 59.5, rather than 55.

Does the Roth conversion ladder make sense since my spouse wants to keep working the next 10 years? I was kinda pushing the ladder out of mind since he will keep working but maybe I should revisit that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on August 09, 2020, 08:55:21 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 09, 2020, 08:47:55 AM

Quote from: ixtap on August 09, 2020, 08:43:20 AM

You could live off the lump sum for 5 years while you set up a Roth conversion ladder. This would be more flexible than SEPP, which you would have to carry through to 59.5, rather than 55.

Does the Roth conversion ladder make sense since my spouse wants to keep working the next 10 years? I was kinda pushing the ladder out of mind since he will keep working but maybe I should revisit that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There is no difference in taxes between SEPP and a conversion ladder, if you allow each conversion to season for five tax years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 09, 2020, 03:23:52 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 09, 2020, 06:49:40 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 08, 2020, 10:36:44 PM

Getting back on topic.. I decided to check out our networth today.

Holy crap We are currently about $100k above our previous all time high!

I can't believe the stock and bond markets will stay up around these levels with the economy in tatters but we'll take it for now.

I just checked and we are now at

Spoiler: show

5.2 million

in invested assets - our highest ever too :-)

I think anyone with more than $4M should be declared as a "THEM" and thrown out the group..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 09, 2020, 04:08:45 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 09, 2020, 03:23:52 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 09, 2020, 06:49:40 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 08, 2020, 10:36:44 PM

Getting back on topic.. I decided to check out our networth today.

Holy crap We are currently about $100k above our previous all time high!

I can't believe the stock and bond markets will stay up around these levels with the economy in tatters but we'll take it for now.

I just checked and we are now at

Spoiler: show

5.2 million

in invested assets - our highest ever too :-)

I think anyone with more than $4M should be declared as a "THEM" and thrown out the group..;)

Naah. They’re an “and beyond” and an inspiration to the rest of us to get our acts together. :-p

Solidarity dontchaknow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 09, 2020, 04:30:22 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 09, 2020, 04:08:45 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 09, 2020, 03:23:52 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 09, 2020, 06:49:40 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 08, 2020, 10:36:44 PM

Getting back on topic.. I decided to check out our networth today.

Holy crap We are currently about $100k above our previous all time high!

I can't believe the stock and bond markets will stay up around these levels with the economy in tatters but we'll take it for now.

I just checked and we are now at

Spoiler: show

5.2 million

in invested assets - our highest ever too :-)

I think anyone with more than $4M should be declared as a "THEM" and thrown out the group..;)

Naah. They’re an “and beyond” and an inspiration to the rest of us to get our acts together. :-p

Solidarity dontchaknow.

Exactly, bunch O slackers that we are..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 09, 2020, 04:31:59 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 09, 2020, 04:08:45 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 09, 2020, 03:23:52 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 09, 2020, 06:49:40 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 08, 2020, 10:36:44 PM

Getting back on topic.. I decided to check out our networth today.

Holy crap We are currently about $100k above our previous all time high!

I can't believe the stock and bond markets will stay up around these levels with the economy in tatters but we'll take it for now.

I just checked and we are now at

Spoiler: show

5.2 million

in invested assets - our highest ever too :-)

I think anyone with more than $4M should be declared as a "THEM" and thrown out the group..;)

Naah. They’re an “and beyond” and an inspiration to the rest of us to get our acts together. :-p

Solidarity dontchaknow.

You'll have to get your inspiration elsewhere. I must surely have the dullest story of anyone here: I was paid reasonably well for developing software for 29 years and discovered index funds early :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 09, 2020, 04:43:21 PM

@2sk22 .. Dull is good. I only started investing in index funds 17 years ago and I'm roughly at half of what you got ($2.4M invested).

Seems like a not believable sum to me!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on August 09, 2020, 05:32:53 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 09, 2020, 04:43:21 PM

@2sk22 .. Dull is good. I only started investing in index funds 17 years ago and I'm roughly at half of what you got ($2.4M invested).

Seems like a not believable sum to me!

Add 7 years or so and you get one more (nominal) doubling, so it sounds about right.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 09, 2020, 07:29:04 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 09, 2020, 04:31:59 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 09, 2020, 04:08:45 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 09, 2020, 03:23:52 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 09, 2020, 06:49:40 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 08, 2020, 10:36:44 PM

Getting back on topic.. I decided to check out our networth today.

Holy crap We are currently about $100k above our previous all time high!

I can't believe the stock and bond markets will stay up around these levels with the economy in tatters but we'll take it for now.

I just checked and we are now at

Spoiler: show

5.2 million

in invested assets - our highest ever too :-)

I think anyone with more than $4M should be declared as a "THEM" and thrown out the group..;)

Naah. They’re an “and beyond” and an inspiration to the rest of us to get our acts together. :-p

Solidarity dontchaknow.

You'll have to get your inspiration elsewhere. I must surely have the dullest story of anyone here: I was paid reasonably well for developing software for 29 years and discovered index funds early :-)

...and if I’d followed your “dull” strategy when I should’ve, I’d be in the 8 digit club today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 10, 2020, 01:38:19 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 09, 2020, 08:47:55 AM

Quote from: ixtap on August 09, 2020, 08:43:20 AM

You could live off the lump sum for 5 years while you set up a Roth conversion ladder. This would be more flexible than SEPP, which you would have to carry through to 59.5, rather than 55.

Does the Roth conversion ladder make sense since my spouse wants to keep working the next 10 years? I was kinda pushing the ladder out of mind since he will keep working but maybe I should revisit that.

Sorry if this is obvious to everyone but me, but is it not possible for the two of you to just live on your spouse's income if he intends to keep working?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 10, 2020, 03:26:08 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 09, 2020, 04:43:21 PM

@2sk22 .. Dull is good. I only started investing in index funds 17 years ago and I'm roughly at half of what you got ($2.4M invested).

Seems like a not believable sum to me!

I started regular index fund investing in the early 1990s. You have to remember that the market was flat for years back then. I really thought I was making a big mistake as the S&P index rose so slowly but having read interviews with Jack Bogle and Burton Malkiel, I kept on the course. Then of course the late 90s bubble sent everything upwards

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 10, 2020, 06:23:43 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 10, 2020, 01:38:19 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 09, 2020, 08:47:55 AM

Quote from: ixtap on August 09, 2020, 08:43:20 AM

You could live off the lump sum for 5 years while you set up a Roth conversion ladder. This would be more flexible than SEPP, which you would have to carry through to 59.5, rather than 55.

Does the Roth conversion ladder make sense since my spouse wants to keep working the next 10 years? I was kinda pushing the ladder out of mind since he will keep working but maybe I should revisit that.

Sorry if this is obvious to everyone but me, but is it not possible for the two of you to just live on your spouse's income if he intends to keep working?

Short answer is yes.

Longer answer is much more complicated. I’ve always been the major bread winner. We can’t keep our current lifestyle just on his salary alone. I would classify our lifestyle as upper middle class. We’d have to downsize a lot. I’m willing to do that. If I was single I’d already be doing that. Spouse doesn’t understand why I want to retire and while he would downsize, it would cause tension.

I’ve also go back and forth on downsizing because my mom is aging and will need help. She lives alone right now and I don’t know how sustainable that is. I’m the only family member with the real means to help support her, including come living with us.

Live is never clear cut, is it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 10, 2020, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 10, 2020, 06:23:43 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 10, 2020, 01:38:19 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 09, 2020, 08:47:55 AM

Quote from: ixtap on August 09, 2020, 08:43:20 AM

You could live off the lump sum for 5 years while you set up a Roth conversion ladder. This would be more flexible than SEPP, which you would have to carry through to 59.5, rather than 55.

Does the Roth conversion ladder make sense since my spouse wants to keep working the next 10 years? I was kinda pushing the ladder out of mind since he will keep working but maybe I should revisit that.

Sorry if this is obvious to everyone but me, but is it not possible for the two of you to just live on your spouse's income if he intends to keep working?

Short answer is yes.

Longer answer is much more complicated. I’ve always been the major bread winner. We can’t keep our current lifestyle just on his salary alone. I would classify our lifestyle as upper middle class. We’d have to downsize a lot. I’m willing to do that. If I was single I’d already be doing that. Spouse doesn’t understand why I want to retire and while he would downsize, it would cause tension.

I’ve also go back and forth on downsizing because my mom is aging and will need help. She lives alone right now and I don’t know how sustainable that is. I’m the only family member with the real means to help support her, including come living with us.

Live is never clear cut, is it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm kinda waking up to that reality as well.  We've had some lifestyle creep ourselves.  But we also will have to build a bigger pile as a safety net for family.  Who knows maybe it will be unecessary.  Our work conditions for our great income level is tolerable a bit longer.  Just working till 55 will make an incredible increase in the amount of good we are capable of.  We'll be approaching 4 million by then and coasting to 5 million and beyond.  We don't have grandchildren yet, but having the ability to help them is also a consideration.  There is a tipping point to where it's not just about you anymore.  When you build wealth beyond 5 million you are in my opinion morally obligated to help the greater good.  That whole rich man and camel through the eye of a needle starts to apply.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on August 10, 2020, 11:19:28 AM

Hit $2.9M last week.  :D

I built my stache the way the most successful Fidelity 401k investors did.  (well, not counting those who were dead)  I ignored my accounts for decades.  When I decided to pay attention so I could see costs, it literally took me a year to figure out what accounts we had from past employers and stuff my dad got for me.  When I got everything on the spread sheet, I had $1.56M.  Always living like college students has made "living below your means" child's play. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 10, 2020, 12:07:56 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 10, 2020, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 10, 2020, 06:23:43 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 10, 2020, 01:38:19 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 09, 2020, 08:47:55 AM

Quote from: ixtap on August 09, 2020, 08:43:20 AM

You could live off the lump sum for 5 years while you set up a Roth conversion ladder. This would be more flexible than SEPP, which you would have to carry through to 59.5, rather than 55.

Does the Roth conversion ladder make sense since my spouse wants to keep working the next 10 years? I was kinda pushing the ladder out of mind since he will keep working but maybe I should revisit that.

Sorry if this is obvious to everyone but me, but is it not possible for the two of you to just live on your spouse's income if he intends to keep working?

Short answer is yes.

Longer answer is much more complicated. I’ve always been the major bread winner. We can’t keep our current lifestyle just on his salary alone. I would classify our lifestyle as upper middle class. We’d have to downsize a lot. I’m willing to do that. If I was single I’d already be doing that. Spouse doesn’t understand why I want to retire and while he would downsize, it would cause tension.

I’ve also go back and forth on downsizing because my mom is aging and will need help. She lives alone right now and I don’t know how sustainable that is. I’m the only family member with the real means to help support her, including come living with us.

Live is never clear cut, is it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm kinda waking up to that reality as well.  We've had some lifestyle creep ourselves.  But we also will have to build a bigger pile as a safety net for family.  Who knows maybe it will be unecessary.  Our work conditions for our great income level is tolerable a bit longer.  Just working till 55 will make an incredible increase in the amount of good we are capable of.  We'll be approaching 4 million by then and coasting to 5 million and beyond.  We don't have grandchildren yet, but having the ability to help them is also a consideration.  There is a tipping point to where it's not just about you anymore.  When you build wealth beyond 5 million you are in my opinion morally obligated to help the greater good.  That whole rich man and camel through the eye of a needle starts to apply.

Agreed. Plus for me if I work another 2.5 years it makes a huge difference in our retirement and won’t have to really downsize much. I can then retire and help take care of mom and do some volunteering. Sounds short but it feels like forever since works sucks. No need for me to take victory laps after that and keep accumulating wealth. Retire and help others which I haven’t done enough of yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 10, 2020, 12:29:21 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on August 10, 2020, 11:19:28 AM

decades.  When I decided to pay attention so I could see costs, it literally took me a year to figure out what accounts we had from past employers and stuff my dad got for me.  When I got everything on the spread sheet, I had $1.56M.  Always living like college students has made "living below your means" child's play.

I too spent a big part of 2019 consolidating my various brokerage and retirement accounts. It felt like a big achievement when I could see everything in Quicken on one page.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 10, 2020, 01:22:45 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 10, 2020, 12:29:21 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on August 10, 2020, 11:19:28 AM

decades.  When I decided to pay attention so I could see costs, it literally took me a year to figure out what accounts we had from past employers and stuff my dad got for me.  When I got everything on the spread sheet, I had $1.56M.  Always living like college students has made "living below your means" child's play.

I too spent a big part of 2019 consolidating my various brokerage and retirement accounts. It felt like a big achievement when I could see everything in Quicken on one page.

oh gee, tell me about it! I had accounts all over the place and I have finally chiseled them down to 6 .. Well the Fidelity and Vanguard pages have multiple accounts but at least they are all on the same webpage.

We found that Vanguard would also combine the accounts of DW and I because I "gave" her my accounts. Now I just log onto her account and it gives me all of the Vanguard goodness on one page.

I felt the urge to use something Like Mint so I (and more importantly DW if I should get hit by a bus) could see everything in one place. I never felt comfortable with giving my passwords to a third party however.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 10, 2020, 01:25:27 PM

@Bateaux So the Camel and eye of the needle thing only happens at above $5M?

Phew, thats a relief..I can continue to be completely selfish for a while yet..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 10, 2020, 01:39:15 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 10, 2020, 01:25:27 PM

@Bateaux So the Camel and eye of the needle thing only happens at above $5M?

Phew, thats a relief..I can continue to be completely selfish for a while yet..:)

You read my mind.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 10, 2020, 01:52:32 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 10, 2020, 01:25:27 PM

@Bateaux So the Camel and eye of the needle thing only happens at above $5M?

Phew, thats a relief..I can continue to be completely selfish for a while yet..:)

Generosity is good for the heart and the soul.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 10, 2020, 01:54:24 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 10, 2020, 10:03:47 AM

I'm kinda waking up to that reality as well.  We've had some lifestyle creep ourselves.  But we also will have to build a bigger pile as a safety net for family.  Who knows maybe it will be unecessary.  Our work conditions for our great income level is tolerable a bit longer.  Just working till 55 will make an incredible increase in the amount of good we are capable of.  We'll be approaching 4 million by then and coasting to 5 million and beyond.  We don't have grandchildren yet, but having the ability to help them is also a consideration.  There is a tipping point to where it's not just about you anymore.  When you build wealth beyond 5 million you are in my opinion morally obligated to help the greater good.  That whole rich man and camel through the eye of a needle starts to apply.

Noblesse oblige FTW.

The goal for us is generational wealth so there never really is an end number anyway.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 10, 2020, 10:15:37 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on August 10, 2020, 11:19:28 AM

Hit $2.9M last week.  :D

I built my stache the way the most successful Fidelity 401k investors did.  (well, not counting those who were dead)  I ignored my accounts for decades.  When I decided to pay attention so I could see costs, it literally took me a year to figure out what accounts we had from past employers and stuff my dad got for me.  When I got everything on the spread sheet, I had $1.56M.  Always living like college students has made "living below your means" child's play.

It could have been me that wrote that except for the part about the dad.  My dad called us "lower middle class."  He never gave me a car on graduation, but I gave one to him a few years later.  I remember a conversation with my brother noting I was living like a college student quite a number of years ago.  He told me to keep doing it.  I did. Now I am able to post nonsense herein.

It's Summer and the stock markets are rising.  I hope today won't be black Tuesday.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 11, 2020, 10:56:02 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 10, 2020, 01:39:15 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 10, 2020, 01:25:27 PM

@Bateaux So the Camel and eye of the needle thing only happens at above $5M?

Phew, thats a relief..I can continue to be completely selfish for a while yet..:)

You read my mind.

We've been doing good stuff for over ten years now, pre seven figures.  Y'all know what I'm about.  Jackasses.  Y'all are already probably helping people and causes.  Ours is, children with cancer.  If we end up oversaving, they will get what we don't need.

MOD EDIT: Please don't be rude. Forum rule #1.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 11, 2020, 11:21:51 AM

Children with Cancer is a bad thing.  Thank you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: StackOfCoins.com (Jay) on August 11, 2020, 10:49:00 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

I've got five more weeks left of work!!
This past week I started to feel very at peace with my decision to leave. I think I'm actually ready. It feels great.

Checked on the net worth today. $3M total. $2.9M without the house. That includes $62k in kids 529s though. And $30k that we are still planning to spend on a new car for DH. I'm not sure what he's waiting for on that. Guess he's just trying to get every last mile out of old the old Accord.

As I was checking on NW, I realized that when we hit $4.3M a 3% draw down will bring us $130k a year which is exactly what we bring home (net of taxes and retirement etc, $240k gross) right now with both of us working and it is more than enough for all the things. Including crazy tuition. That's nuts. So unless we have another crazy drop or a few years of really stagnant returns, we should hit $4.3M relatively easy. Not that we really need, or even want to do that, I just predict it will happen.
At that realization made me really glad I put in my notice. I do not want to look back and have too much money but feeling like I didn't have enough time to do the things I want, with the people I want.
Life is good, and kind of unbelievable.

This is awesome!  Do you mind me asking how old you are?  Congratulations!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 11, 2020, 11:57:15 PM

Quote from: StackOfCoins.com (Jay) on August 11, 2020, 10:49:00 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 11, 2020, 10:25:45 AM

I've got five more weeks left of work!!
This past week I started to feel very at peace with my decision to leave. I think I'm actually ready. It feels great.

Checked on the net worth today. $3M total. $2.9M without the house. That includes $62k in kids 529s though. And $30k that we are still planning to spend on a new car for DH. I'm not sure what he's waiting for on that. Guess he's just trying to get every last mile out of old the old Accord.

As I was checking on NW, I realized that when we hit $4.3M a 3% draw down will bring us $130k a year which is exactly what we bring home (net of taxes and retirement etc, $240k gross) right now with both of us working and it is more than enough for all the things. Including crazy tuition. That's nuts. So unless we have another crazy drop or a few years of really stagnant returns, we should hit $4.3M relatively easy. Not that we really need, or even want to do that, I just predict it will happen.
At that realization made me really glad I put in my notice. I do not want to look back and have too much money but feeling like I didn't have enough time to do the things I want, with the people I want.
Life is good, and kind of unbelievable.

This is awesome!  Do you mind me asking how old you are?  Congratulations!

Thanks! We are 43. Friday is my last day of work. My DH is planning to keep going for awhile still.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on August 12, 2020, 03:12:47 AM

That is great @BeanCounter : must feel really exciting!  Do you have plans for immediately post-work, or are you just going to decompress for a bit?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on August 12, 2020, 07:28:13 AM

It seems to be more difficult to quit when you have a larger portfolio. Money keeps to increase at a faster speed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on August 12, 2020, 12:29:21 PM

Congrats, @BeanCounter ! I find it so interesting to look at split of assets/net worth for different people, in different areas of the country. Real estate is a much bigger part of our net worth (bay area), with a plan to relocate somewhere else in the future, freeing up a large portion of that asset into investments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 13, 2020, 05:08:19 AM

Were at about 2.45M invested in addition add to that a 800k+ paid for house. Being fired now in my 6th year (56 in October) We didnt start indexing till about 7 years ago. What hurts us the most is 4 kids (2 in college 1 had a sports scholarship and walked away from after 2 years the other still on full ride be we have 2 still in HS) but were still above our all time high. Our rate of spending we easily can live on 3% but were dumping $ into our home when its all said in done probably will be over 200k top 250k BUT will fortunately get it back living on a lake house in a very high demand area. We would be higher too but as the market has been rising i have been taking more out then I need and am over 25% cash. It seemed like a smart idea with covid and all and still might be BUT worse case I will live off cash and reinvest on large dip. Not going to lie I like having the cash (cds, VMMXX etc..) to pay for my projects and stuff I personally cant do but its cost me some upside as of now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on August 13, 2020, 08:14:17 AM

Well, I sold in the dip and bought bonds.  I would count that as cash, too.   I just keep flunking the Boglehead strategy.  Self flagellation in progress...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 13, 2020, 10:14:11 AM

So getting close to house build being done. Being asked today if I want to lock in 30yr fixed at 2.49 today????? Is this real? Will I never move or prepay a mortgage again?????


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 13, 2020, 10:16:52 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 13, 2020, 10:14:11 AM

So getting close to house build being done. Being asked today if I want to lock in 30yr fixed at 2.49 today????? Is this real? Will I never move or prepay a mortgage again?????


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great rate.   Definitely no need to prepay.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 14, 2020, 05:14:37 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on August 12, 2020, 03:12:47 AM

That is great @BeanCounter : must feel really exciting!  Do you have plans for immediately post-work, or are you just going to decompress for a bit?

We are headed out to the beach for a week and then it will be time to get the kids back to school. I do have a couple home projects to work on. I think that will help me transition a bit. I expect the first few weeks will be rough. If the kids are back at school and my DH is back in the office, it’s going to feel a bit odd.
A neighbor put a RETIREMENT card with a gift certificate to a local wine shop in my mailbox last night. Which was super sweet but also felt strange. Can I really celebrate retirement? I’m only 43. I’ve only been working 20 years. But then if I just say I quit my job, that feels like a let down. I mean I did earn this!!
Well off to the office to turn in my laptop and badge. Hope I don’t cry!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 14, 2020, 10:29:07 AM

Great job BC!..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 14, 2020, 11:21:02 AM

OMG YOU GUYS IT FELT SO GOOD!!! I handed IT my ball and chain laptop, grabbed my box of personal stuff and walked out with a smile!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on August 14, 2020, 11:41:37 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 14, 2020, 11:21:02 AM

OMG YOU GUYS IT FELT SO GOOD!!! I handed IT my ball and chain laptop, grabbed my box of personal stuff and walked out with a smile!

:):):)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on August 14, 2020, 12:19:38 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 14, 2020, 11:21:02 AM

OMG YOU GUYS IT FELT SO GOOD!!! I handed IT my ball and chain laptop, grabbed my box of personal stuff and walked out with a smile!

Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on August 14, 2020, 01:27:42 PM

Yay, BeanCounter!  You'll get used to the free time in a big fat hurry.   It's kind of like when the kids first go off to school (what will you do with all that free time?). Somehow, bit by bit, you'll adjust. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on August 14, 2020, 02:38:07 PM

More progress has been made! Up $1.5MM for the year. I turn 30 in a few weeks, so much for being young.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70
07/10/2020: $3,098,138.96
08/14/2020: $3,243,042.90

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 14, 2020, 03:52:04 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on August 14, 2020, 02:38:07 PM

More progress has been made! Up $1.5MM for the year. I turn 30 in a few weeks, so much for being young.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70
07/10/2020: $3,098,138.96
08/14/2020: $3,243,042.90

Some of are old enough to remember when the expression, "Don't Trust Anybody Over Thirty."  I'm sure that was quite a bit more than 30 years ago.  If you have your health, by far most of it is still in front of you.  You are doing something right.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on August 14, 2020, 07:53:23 PM

HD-you made me check the hubs account- up 10x this year. I still think it is insane....when does Elon’s shares vest? Sometimes I think there is outside engineering on prices. Well A bit before he vests, dump as there will be a dip. Buy again in the valley.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 14, 2020, 08:44:49 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on August 14, 2020, 02:38:07 PM

More progress has been made! Up $1.5MM for the year. I turn 30 in a few weeks, so much for being young.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70
07/10/2020: $3,098,138.96
08/14/2020: $3,243,042.90

Thanks for the updates, but it's a bit dry without any enthusiasm about what your plans are.  Numbers - even with a dollar sign in front of them - are pretty boring.  Surely you have some dreams and aspirations?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on August 14, 2020, 08:52:59 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 14, 2020, 08:44:49 PM

Thanks for the updates, but it's a bit dry without any enthusiasm about what your plans are.  Numbers - even with a dollar sign in front of them - are pretty boring.  Surely you have some dreams and aspirations?

I thought I already shared this a while back?

Quote from: Herbert Derp on July 11, 2020, 10:45:06 AM

This is what I'm currently thinking about.

Short term:

• Get a car
• Get a girlfriend

Medium term:

• Move out of the city
• Gain experience working on farms

Long term:

• Relocate to another country?
• Marriage / children?
• Buy a bunch of land and see if I can live off-grid?

I'm currently working on the "get a car" and "get a girlfriend" parts! Long term, my current plans involve buying land and seeing if I can create a small business running a small organic vegetable farm and Airbnb lodge on the property.

I think it would be awesome to grow vegetables using these things:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s5GU9SWquQ

Airbnb lodge could be something along these lines:
https://www.glamping.com/destination/south-america/patagonia/coyhaique/fundo-panguilemu/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iWqylbuscE

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 14, 2020, 09:40:23 PM

@Herbert Derp Thanks for that.  I don't follow you elsewhere on the forum, but you haven't shared any of that on this thread.  I enjoy hearing other folks talk about how FI is improving their lives and you were just showing up with solidly FI numbers but no context.  For some sad people, even your numbers aren't FI, so who knows you from Adam.  Hopefully you join our crowd a bit more and continue to share the evolution of these aspirations and endeavors...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on August 14, 2020, 09:44:24 PM

I do have a journal thread, which this thread is not. I go into more detail about my life over there! This thread is just the race to $4MM :P

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 14, 2020, 10:47:07 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on August 14, 2020, 09:44:24 PM

I do have a journal thread, which this thread is not. I go into more detail about my life over there! This thread is just the race to $4MM :P

This thread kinda became the hangout for Mustachians that hit 2M and found themselves going higher.  The 'and beyond' and 'race' part evolved a bit to just mean, this is a good place for folks to discuss how they are enjoying their FI and what the future holds.  There is a 4M and beyond (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/train-from-$4m-to-$8m/msg2677451/#msg2677451) thread that might be more appealing to you, if 4M+ is your goal.  I'll check out your journal, but please throw in more to this thread than what is typical in a 'race to' thread because it kinda detracts from those of us just hanging out here enjoying our FI.  Not sure if you've really read the full thread, but you'll understand us better if your TSLA stock slows down and/or you realize you have enough to already accomplish stuff 90+% of the world can only dream of (like ER, dream home location, dream pursuits that don't pay as well, helping others, self actualization, etc).  Glad to have you here, sorry to go all 'hall monitor' on you. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 15, 2020, 07:32:44 AM

To be fair, most of us seem to be see these account levels as our slow down point where we've either RE or looking at the finish line.  HD is younger and still racing.  He's still thinking about buying a vehicle, getting property, finding a mate, and settling down.  His situation is quite unique here.  We're all impressed & probably envious of his youth. We are curious what it would have been like to be in his position, and are eager to hear what he actually chooses.  At his present rate of accumulation he'll be in the "well beyond" of end of our group soon.  There $4 and beyond thread barely exists, so from a social perspective this is the last stop on the MMM forum.   


HD's presented a number of his plans or dreams.  He's in a fortunate position in that he's unattached & free to make his choices without concern over anyone else's needs or schedules.  But, that will come & he'll have to adjust to the compromises and responsibilities they require. 


I'm wondering when he's planning to buy a vehicle?  That seems to be the first major thing on his list.  I've found that it's hard to decide what to drive when you can afford whatever you want.  Buying a car is the simplest thing on his to-do list.  Deciding where to live & buying property is a much bigger & much more binding decision.  Then, the biggest thing on his list of all, finding a mate, is unlike any of the others.  That's more important than anything else, and yet almost something that you aren't totally in control of.  And sadly, adding vast assets to the equation usually complicates relationships.


Anyway, we're all interested in hearing about what choices HD makes. 


(ps. The robotic garden looks pretty hokie to me.  Gardening's about being "hand on" and getting to know your soil, your crops, the pests & weeds, etc.  If you want to play a video game that's fine, but there's no reason to drag the hardware into your garden.) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on August 15, 2020, 11:04:27 AM

Open ended question where I could use some input:

How much bay area real estate would you be comfortable holding right now?

Our house equity is a significant portion of our net worth (for rounding ease of use, let's say 1/2 of a $4M portfolio). Current plan is to get the kids through high school (5 years left) & then relocate somewhere less expensive, freeing up 1/2 or so of that equity, putting the rest into another house. We have a paid off house on the Oregon coast, but living there full time isn't likely in the cards. We'd choose a similar climate to the bay area, but much cheaper COL.

We work in tech (same company) & are able to WFH for the next year or so, as most tech companies have announced. COVID will likely have a significant impact on remote working in the tech space, and likely drive down the cost of real estate. In real life, that's great, as the bay area is crazy expensive. Selfishly, I of course don't wan to be sitting on a $3M house as the market trends down.

We will likely be under $1M in a loan in a year, so it would take a major black swan event for us to be "under water" on the house. But, still getting antsy in the market. We live in an incredibly desirable area (even within the bay area), that is a close commute to most tech employers, but retains a smallish town vibe. It's a great place to live & raise kids, so no concerns about the area, minus the potential market decline.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 15, 2020, 12:59:23 PM

@GreenEggs I appreciate you're wisdom you imaparted here. I'm sure there a few of us older (more cynical perhaps) folks who recognise that finding a mate is fraught with problems of attracting the "wrong sort".

This is why I advocate for making a list of qualities that you are looking for in a mate before you start looking. Most people it turns out have no idea what they are looking for beyond the obvious.

Certainly a large stash could be like ringing the dinner gong in the middle of a crowd of hungry people.

A good idea to fly under the radar as far as displaying wealth is concerned.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 15, 2020, 03:50:00 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on August 15, 2020, 11:04:27 AM

Open ended question where I could use some input:

How much bay area real estate would you be comfortable holding right now?

Our house equity is a significant portion of our net worth (for rounding ease of use, let's say 1/2 of a $4M portfolio). Current plan is to get the kids through high school (5 years left) & then relocate somewhere less expensive, freeing up 1/2 or so of that equity, putting the rest into another house. We have a paid off house on the Oregon coast, but living there full time isn't likely in the cards. We'd choose a similar climate to the bay area, but much cheaper COL.

We work in tech (same company) & are able to WFH for the next year or so, as most tech companies have announced. COVID will likely have a significant impact on remote working in the tech space, and likely drive down the cost of real estate. In real life, that's great, as the bay area is crazy expensive. Selfishly, I of course don't wan to be sitting on a $3M house as the market trends down.

We will likely be under $1M in a loan in a year, so it would take a major black swan event for us to be "under water" on the house. But, still getting antsy in the market. We live in an incredibly desirable area (even within the bay area), that is a close commute to most tech employers, but retains a smallish town vibe. It's a great place to live & raise kids, so no concerns about the area, minus the potential market decline.

Thoughts?

If you’re planning on being in the area for several more years, then that’s a lot of time for the market to go up, down, and all around. I don’t pretend to know the intricacies of the SF market, indeed I’m on the other coast. The concern I would have is that you’ve got a whole heck of a lot of your NW is locked up in real estate in a very pricey market.

I like to turn these questions around. Given what you know about the market right now and what you could likely sell your home for today, would you buy it?  If the answer is YES, then you’re where you should be. If the answer is NO, then why isn’t the house on the market?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 15, 2020, 04:33:59 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 15, 2020, 12:59:23 PM

@GreenEggs I appreciate you're wisdom you imaparted here. I'm sure there a few of us older (more cynical perhaps) folks who recognise that finding a mate is fraught with problems of attracting the "wrong sort".

This is why I advocate for making a list of qualities that you are looking for in a mate before you start looking. Most people it turns out have no idea what they are looking for beyond the obvious.

Certainly a large stash could be like ringing the dinner gong in the middle of a crowd of hungry people.

A good idea to fly under the radar as far as displaying wealth is concerned.

Even with a checklist for the "ideal mate" you've got to be somewhat flexible.  None of us are perfect, and we can't expect our mates to be either. 


I agree with keeping financial details confidential, and it's always better to use general terms like "well off, comfortable, or secure" than any specific amounts.  It would be wise for HD to consider placing his assets in a trust to protect them from uncertainties of any future relationships, and also from other general liabilities.  (Having a trust is similar to having a prenup without the uncomfortable discussion or paperwork.)  The (your) trust can own millions, while you can personally own very little. 


Having a trust in place will help alleviate the stress of worrying about going through a messy, expensive divorce before you've even met someone. 
 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on August 15, 2020, 04:39:55 PM

@Buffaloski Boris - I was uncomfortable with the price tag when we bought it, and we've invested money in the house, plus the market has continued to rise steadily. So... I'd say I'd really have to close my eyes at the idea of ever spending that kind of money on a house (even more than we paid before). Realistically, while property values might drop a bit, this is where we want to be for the next five years at least, and it's hard to predict what will happen in that time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 15, 2020, 05:19:24 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on August 15, 2020, 04:39:55 PM

@Buffaloski Boris - I was uncomfortable with the price tag when we bought it, and we've invested money in the house, plus the market has continued to rise steadily. So... I'd say I'd really have to close my eyes at the idea of ever spending that kind of money on a house (even more than we paid before). Realistically, while property values might drop a bit, this is where we want to be for the next five years at least, and it's hard to predict what will happen in that time.

Sounds to me like you’ve made up your mind. If you’d buy today, eyes closed or shut, then you have your answer. Something you might think about is refi or cashing out given current interest rates. IIRC, real estate debt is non recourse in Cali.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 15, 2020, 05:37:42 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 15, 2020, 05:19:24 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on August 15, 2020, 04:39:55 PM

@Buffaloski Boris - I was uncomfortable with the price tag when we bought it, and we've invested money in the house, plus the market has continued to rise steadily. So... I'd say I'd really have to close my eyes at the idea of ever spending that kind of money on a house (even more than we paid before). Realistically, while property values might drop a bit, this is where we want to be for the next five years at least, and it's hard to predict what will happen in that time.

Sounds to me like you’ve made up your mind. If you’d buy today, eyes closed or shut, then you have your answer. Something you might think about is refi or cashing out given current interest rates. IIRC, real estate debt is non recourse in California.

Except for the mistake I fixed, I pretty much agree with BB's thoughts. Bonus is that I'm in the Bay Area, too. OMG, I can't believe how much we paid for our house and what we've spent to maintain it for the last seven years. I also can't believe how much it's gone up in value. If you're going to continue to work, I think I'd ride the Real Estate Pony until you're ready to saddle up and get out of Dodge.

I really, really like BB's suggestion to re-fi and pull some of your equity out, but be careful of IRS limits on deductibility. Just for fun, let's ping some experts. Are @Cpa Cat, @SeattleCPA, or @seattlecyclone still in the house? Anyone else who knows is welcome to chime in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 16, 2020, 11:34:53 AM

Just thought I’d check in...

Negotiations with my employer are at a stalemate.

The pressure is mounting for me to just back down and accept my company not honouring my current employment contract, if I want the next job.

The amount in dispute is fairly large I suppose, but not life altering. Enough to pay cash for a fancy German car, but not enough for a ski chalet to go with it. nevertheless It’s causing me some sleepless nights.

Whilst I am certainly in a place of ample FU money, I don’t know if burning down the castle to get what’s mine is necessarily the way to go.

My stance is strong legally (almost bulletproof I’d say), but there is always the risk that if you are counting on lawyers you could end up in tears. Also I have negotiated a pretty good package that is unlikely to be replicable if I leave my current employer.

I just need to find some way to exert leverage without being too threatening. Really not sure how to force their hand. Or should I just adhere to the “better is the enemy of the good” logic (Voltaire)

Flight departs in 9 days, will I be on it? or will I do the ballsy thing and refuse to fly until I am paid.... what will then be a termination 😬

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 16, 2020, 12:10:29 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 16, 2020, 11:34:53 AM

Just thought I’d check in...

Negotiations with my employer are at a stalemate.

The pressure is mounting for me to just back down and accept my company not honouring my current employment contract, if I want the next job.

The amount in dispute is fairly large I suppose, but not life altering. Enough to pay cash for a fancy German car, but not enough for a ski chalet to go with it. nevertheless It’s causing me some sleepless nights.

Whilst I am certainly in a place of ample FU money, I don’t know if burning down the castle to get what’s mine is necessarily the way to go.

My stance is strong legally (almost bulletproof I’d say), but there is always the risk that if you are counting on lawyers you could end up in tears. Also I have negotiated a pretty good package that is unlikely to be replicable if I leave my current employer.

I just need to find some way to exert leverage without being too threatening. Really not sure how to force their hand. Or should I just adhere to the “better is the enemy of the good” logic (Voltaire)

Flight departs in 9 days, will I be on it? or will I do the ballsy thing and refuse to fly until I am paid.... what will then be a termination 😬

This is a PERFECT example of how laws are not set up fairly.

If you were to steal $100 worth of office supplies from your employer you could be arrested for theft.   The police and district attorneys will prosecute you at taxpayer expense.

But if they steal $60K in your wages from you, it's not a crime.   The police and district attorneys won't prosecute them at taxpayer expense, you have to do that yourself.

This kind of thing makes people twitchy to put a guillotine to work.

Next time you hear about systemic racism, remember how it's set up to work.   It's so well done it's usually invisible until you take the blinders off and see it for what it is.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 16, 2020, 12:18:33 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 16, 2020, 11:34:53 AM

Just thought I’d check in...

Negotiations with my employer are at a stalemate.

The pressure is mounting for me to just back down and accept my company not honouring my current employment contract, if I want the next job.

The amount in dispute is fairly large I suppose, but not life altering. Enough to pay cash for a fancy German car, but not enough for a ski chalet to go with it. nevertheless It’s causing me some sleepless nights.

Whilst I am certainly in a place of ample FU money, I don’t know if burning down the castle to get what’s mine is necessarily the way to go.

My stance is strong legally (almost bulletproof I’d say), but there is always the risk that if you are counting on lawyers you could end up in tears. Also I have negotiated a pretty good package that is unlikely to be replicable if I leave my current employer.

I just need to find some way to exert leverage without being too threatening. Really not sure how to force their hand. Or should I just adhere to the “better is the enemy of the good” logic (Voltaire)

Flight departs in 9 days, will I be on it? or will I do the ballsy thing and refuse to fly until I am paid.... what will then be a termination 😬

Okay, I read through your back posts and I'm still not clear on exactly what's going on. Care to elaborate so I can commiserate more fully?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 16, 2020, 12:19:40 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 16, 2020, 12:18:33 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 16, 2020, 11:34:53 AM

Just thought I’d check in...

Negotiations with my employer are at a stalemate.

The pressure is mounting for me to just back down and accept my company not honouring my current employment contract, if I want the next job.

The amount in dispute is fairly large I suppose, but not life altering. Enough to pay cash for a fancy German car, but not enough for a ski chalet to go with it. nevertheless It’s causing me some sleepless nights.

Whilst I am certainly in a place of ample FU money, I don’t know if burning down the castle to get what’s mine is necessarily the way to go.

My stance is strong legally (almost bulletproof I’d say), but there is always the risk that if you are counting on lawyers you could end up in tears. Also I have negotiated a pretty good package that is unlikely to be replicable if I leave my current employer.

I just need to find some way to exert leverage without being too threatening. Really not sure how to force their hand. Or should I just adhere to the “better is the enemy of the good” logic (Voltaire)

Flight departs in 9 days, will I be on it? or will I do the ballsy thing and refuse to fly until I am paid.... what will then be a termination 😬

Okay, I read through your back posts and I'm still not clear on exactly what's going on. Care to elaborate so I can commiserate more fully?

^^^This^^^^...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on August 16, 2020, 01:00:47 PM

Do you want to come back to Australia? As the government has recently severely limited the numbers being repatriated, many people are being bumped from their flights. There are still enormous numbers of people wanting to come back. The media are saying that bumping is happening because the airlines are getting people paying for more expensive fares, and because they can only have 30 or 50 people on a plane (due to the government repatriation limits), they’re bumping those in economy class. As this is illegal, the appropriate regulatory authority is looking into it, but they probably can’t do much as many of the fares are paid overseas.

Actually, I suppose it’s irrelevant to you because you won’t be flying in economy. So you might be bumping others.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 16, 2020, 08:38:24 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 14, 2020, 10:47:07 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on August 14, 2020, 09:44:24 PM

I do have a journal thread, which this thread is not. I go into more detail about my life over there! This thread is just the race to $4MM :P

This thread kinda became the hangout for Mustachians that hit 2M and found themselves going higher.  The 'and beyond' and 'race' part evolved a bit to just mean, this is a good place for folks to discuss how they are enjoying their FI and what the future holds.  There is a 4M and beyond (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/train-from-$4m-to-$8m/msg2677451/#msg2677451) thread that might be more appealing to you, if 4M+ is your goal.  I'll check out your journal, but please throw in more to this thread than what is typical in a 'race to' thread because it kinda detracts from those of us just hanging out here enjoying our FI.  Not sure if you've really read the full thread, but you'll understand us better if your TSLA stock slows down and/or you realize you have enough to already accomplish stuff 90+% of the world can only dream of (like ER, dream home location, dream pursuits that don't pay as well, helping others, self actualization, etc).  Glad to have you here, sorry to go all 'hall monitor' on you.

That’s why I like it here even though I only qualify right now using fuzzy math due to my pension.  I find the $1-2 million boring since it’s just people reporting numbers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 16, 2020, 10:54:19 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 16, 2020, 08:38:24 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 14, 2020, 10:47:07 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on August 14, 2020, 09:44:24 PM

I do have a journal thread, which this thread is not. I go into more detail about my life over there! This thread is just the race to $4MM :P

This thread kinda became the hangout for Mustachians that hit 2M and found themselves going higher.  The 'and beyond' and 'race' part evolved a bit to just mean, this is a good place for folks to discuss how they are enjoying their FI and what the future holds.  There is a 4M and beyond (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/train-from-$4m-to-$8m/msg2677451/#msg2677451) thread that might be more appealing to you, if 4M+ is your goal.  I'll check out your journal, but please throw in more to this thread than what is typical in a 'race to' thread because it kinda detracts from those of us just hanging out here enjoying our FI.  Not sure if you've really read the full thread, but you'll understand us better if your TSLA stock slows down and/or you realize you have enough to already accomplish stuff 90+% of the world can only dream of (like ER, dream home location, dream pursuits that don't pay as well, helping others, self actualization, etc).  Glad to have you here, sorry to go all 'hall monitor' on you.

That’s why I like it here even though I only qualify right now using fuzzy math due to my pension.  I find the $1-2 million boring since it’s just people reporting numbers.

I posted here as an imposter initially.   I kicked in some pension and real estate.   Then just pension that now has a cash value as of August 1st.  Now, finally, stand alone stocks, bonds, REITs meet the 2 million.  Add all the crap up and it's approaching 3 million.  I felt the same way, wanted out of the 1 to 2.  CarJack reached out a hand, dropped the tailgate and I jumped in a little early.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 16, 2020, 11:03:25 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 16, 2020, 11:02:18 PM

I was at 1.8M putting everything in one basket.  Builds quick.  Less than 3 years ago.

Quote from: Car Jack on October 03, 2017, 06:48:40 AM

Picture you're racing a bicycle and I'm on the back of a pickup, laying down in the bed with my arm outstretched.  Come on.....you can do it!!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 17, 2020, 07:46:48 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 16, 2020, 10:54:19 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 16, 2020, 08:38:24 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 14, 2020, 10:47:07 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on August 14, 2020, 09:44:24 PM

I do have a journal thread, which this thread is not. I go into more detail about my life over there! This thread is just the race to $4MM :P

This thread kinda became the hangout for Mustachians that hit 2M and found themselves going higher.  The 'and beyond' and 'race' part evolved a bit to just mean, this is a good place for folks to discuss how they are enjoying their FI and what the future holds.  There is a 4M and beyond (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/train-from-$4m-to-$8m/msg2677451/#msg2677451) thread that might be more appealing to you, if 4M+ is your goal.  I'll check out your journal, but please throw in more to this thread than what is typical in a 'race to' thread because it kinda detracts from those of us just hanging out here enjoying our FI.  Not sure if you've really read the full thread, but you'll understand us better if your TSLA stock slows down and/or you realize you have enough to already accomplish stuff 90+% of the world can only dream of (like ER, dream home location, dream pursuits that don't pay as well, helping others, self actualization, etc).  Glad to have you here, sorry to go all 'hall monitor' on you.

That’s why I like it here even though I only qualify right now using fuzzy math due to my pension.  I find the $1-2 million boring since it’s just people reporting numbers.

I posted here as an imposter initially.   I kicked in some pension and real estate.   Then just pension that now has a cash value as of August 1st.  Now, finally, stand alone stocks, bonds, REITs meet the 2 million.  Add all the crap up and it's approaching 3 million.  I felt the same way, wanted out of the 1 to 2.  CarJack reached out a hand, dropped the tailgate and I jumped in a little early.

Uuuhhhggg!   Here I was living blissfully in the $2-4M club (with a little beyond for good measure) and now I find out there is a $4M and beyond.   WTF! Now I feel exceptionally poor and must return to work to race ever higher,  for that is what we do. 

That seems like a lot of work, nevermind. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 17, 2020, 07:48:39 AM

IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on August 17, 2020, 08:16:13 AM

@MaybeBabyMustache , in spite of the naysayers predicting an eminent RE crash, I think SF real estate is and remains a strong investment.  And you're living there, right?  So you get to enjoy your cool vibe neighborhood.   I think you need to ask yourself questions more along the line of "Are we ready to move?  Downsize? Relocate?"  Then base your choices on those answers.   There's no wrong answer.  It's glorious to buy low and sell high, especially if you're lucky enough to catch both the trough and the peak-- oh, in SF real estate those numbers are mindboggling--but I wouldn't rush the decision based on what the RE market might do in the future. 

We've just bought 4 rental houses along the Oregon Coast, but their performance as an investment merely duplicates what we were able to do closer to home 12 years ago.  Now, prices have doubled in our area and we had to cast a wider net or accept a much smaller return.   Hind sight is 20/20.    In other words, if it's not broke, don't fix it.   If you're looking for a good investment, look no further than your front door.  It is a good investment and you already own it.  Stay until you're ready to go.  Then move on with confidence and a fat wallet toward your next life chapter.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 17, 2020, 08:28:18 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 17, 2020, 07:48:39 AM

IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.

As in running the wrong race. 


I think "winning" is present tense, and "won" is past tense.  Winning is pleasurable to the ego, while retirement presents the fear of dealing with unknowns without a safety net or a familiar roadmap.  And there's also the fear of being with your mate 24/7, without the hormones of a newly wed couple.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on August 17, 2020, 10:12:39 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on August 17, 2020, 08:16:13 AM

@MaybeBabyMustache , in spite of the naysayers predicting an eminent RE crash, I think SF real estate is and remains a strong investment.  And you're living there, right?  So you get to enjoy your cool vibe neighborhood.   I think you need to ask yourself questions more along the line of "Are we ready to move?  Downsize? Relocate?"  Then base your choices on those answers.   There's no wrong answer.  It's glorious to buy low and sell high, especially if you're lucky enough to catch both the trough and the peak-- oh, in SF real estate those numbers are mindboggling--but I wouldn't rush the decision based on what the RE market might do in the future. 

We've just bought 4 rental houses along the Oregon Coast, but their performance as an investment merely duplicates what we were able to do closer to home 12 years ago.  Now, prices have doubled in our area and we had to cast a wider net or accept a much smaller return.   Hind sight is 20/20.    In other words, if it's not broke, don't fix it.   If you're looking for a good investment, look no further than your front door.  It is a good investment and you already own it.  Stay until you're ready to go.  Then move on with confidence and a fat wallet toward your next life chapter.

@JoJoP - this was really helpful, and I agree. I need to be happy with where we are & enjoy. Things may shift around here & there with pricing, but this is where we'll be until (at least) the kids are done with school.

Would love to know more about where you own on the Oregon coast, if you are comfortable sharing. It's our house, but primarily for family usage (don't really rent), but I've never had so many people ask to use it, thanks to COVID. It's in hot demand right now. :-) We were there in June for three weeks & loved it, and expect to spend more time there due to flexible work options.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on August 17, 2020, 10:24:28 AM

Ahh well, I didn't realise pension and real estate didn't count.  I'm still safely in the fold on a USD basis I think.

I am talking to my big boss about going onto a flexible contract on Friday.  I have a big project I need to finish that should be done by mid January at latest, but if it wraps up earlier (it's a legal process that may settle out of court if I'm lucky) then I'll drop my hours and ask to switch to the flexible contract sooner than that.

I really think I may just fully walk.  I always assumed I would at least finish off the projects I've started (there are a couple of things that may pop back up over the coming years), and I'd still like to do that ideally - but the working environment is feeling very toxic right now, and if I can't finish up my ongoing projects without feeling exposed to that then I am increasingly thinking I'm ready to just cut all ties and go.

Scary, but good to finally have that clarity, after a long time of feeling (I now realise) very stressed and unmoored by the idea of just "stopping".

It's so weird, 2020 was going to be my amazing year of working less, going out in the evenings, having some "me time" and generally wrapping my head around the idea of retirement.  It's been quite the opposite (working more, staying in, no "me time" whatsoever since February)!  But still, I've made some progress towards where I need to be mentally.  So that's all good I guess.  And certainly I have a lot less to complain about than most.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 17, 2020, 11:03:14 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on August 17, 2020, 10:24:28 AM

Ahh well, I didn't realise pension and real estate didn't count.  I'm still safely in the fold on a USD basis I think.

Dicey chuckles and asks, "Sez who?" It's not like anybody's checking portfolios at the door.

Funny, the more I have, the less I include in my (mostly mental) net worth calculations. The value of cars, household gioods, tools, etc. are just the beginning of a list of things I rarely bother to think about, much less count anymore. Post-FIRE, a spitball estimate works just fine for me. Pre-FIRE, I tracked everything.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 17, 2020, 11:32:54 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 17, 2020, 11:03:14 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on August 17, 2020, 10:24:28 AM

Ahh well, I didn't realise pension and real estate didn't count.  I'm still safely in the fold on a USD basis I think.

Dicey chuckles and asks, "Sez who?" It's not like anybody's checking portfolios at the door.

Funny, the more I have, the less I include in my (mostly mental) net worth calculations. The value of cars, household gioods, tools, etc. are just the beginning of a list of things I rarely bother to think about, much less count anymore. Post-FIRE, a spitball estimate works just fine for me. Pre-FIRE, I tracked everything.

What assets are counted to get you into this club is a bit like the difference between good sex and bad sex.... There is no bad sex..:)

Like you though in the beginning it was like.. "I'm sure I could get another couple hundred if I sold my aging computer"..

Now its "if its not in an account its not counted", except maybe a hand wave at pension and house value.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 17, 2020, 11:38:18 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 17, 2020, 08:28:18 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 17, 2020, 07:48:39 AM

IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.

As in running the wrong race. 


I think "winning" is present tense, and "won" is past tense.  Winning is pleasurable to the ego, while retirement presents the fear of dealing with unknowns without a safety net or a familiar roadmap.  And there's also the fear of being with your mate 24/7, without the hormones of a newly wed couple.  ;)

There are these little blue pills you can get..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 17, 2020, 01:28:28 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 17, 2020, 11:03:14 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on August 17, 2020, 10:24:28 AM

Ahh well, I didn't realise pension and real estate didn't count.  I'm still safely in the fold on a USD basis I think.

Dicey chuckles and asks, "Sez who?" It's not like anybody's checking portfolios at the door.

Funny, the more I have, the less I include in my (mostly mental) net worth calculations. The value of cars, household gioods, tools, etc. are just the beginning of a list of things I rarely bother to think about, much less count anymore. Post-FIRE, a spitball estimate works just fine for me. Pre-FIRE, I tracked everything.

Yeah, my mental NW is way different than my actual NW, in reality my mental NW is only my investments that I will be living off of at 3-4% WR.   My actual NW also has house, college funds, HSA accounts, and a few sinking fund accounts for home/auto repairs and auto replacement and vacation funds.   I never include any personal property.   

BTW - Those sinking funds have grown quite large as I have put in about $750/month for a long time but then never transferred money out of them as I incurred those expenses. Now that I am FIRE though I still send the $750/mo but will start withdrawing as consumed. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SeattleCPA on August 17, 2020, 02:10:42 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 15, 2020, 05:37:42 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 15, 2020, 05:19:24 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on August 15, 2020, 04:39:55 PM

@Buffaloski Boris - I was uncomfortable with the price tag when we bought it, and we've invested money in the house, plus the market has continued to rise steadily. So... I'd say I'd really have to close my eyes at the idea of ever spending that kind of money on a house (even more than we paid before). Realistically, while property values might drop a bit, this is where we want to be for the next five years at least, and it's hard to predict what will happen in that time.

Sounds to me like you’ve made up your mind. If you’d buy today, eyes closed or shut, then you have your answer. Something you might think about is refi or cashing out given current interest rates. IIRC, real estate debt is non recourse in California.

Except for the mistake I fixed, I pretty much agree with BB's thoughts. Bonus is that I'm in the Bay Area, too. OMG, I can't believe how much we paid for our house and what we've spent to maintain it for the last seven years. I also can't believe how much it's gone up in value. If you're going to continue to work, I think I'd ride the Real Estate Pony until you're ready to saddle up and get out of Dodge.

I really, really like BB's suggestion to re-fi and pull some of your equity out, but be careful of IRS limits on deductibility. Just for fun, let's ping some experts. Are @Cpa Cat, @SeattleCPA, or @seattlecyclone still in the house? Anyone else who knows is welcome to chime in.

The interest on the "extra money" you take out at a refi isn't qualified mortgage interest and so may not produce an itemized deduction. I think that's your question...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on August 17, 2020, 03:09:31 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 17, 2020, 01:28:28 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 17, 2020, 11:03:14 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on August 17, 2020, 10:24:28 AM

Ahh well, I didn't realise pension and real estate didn't count.  I'm still safely in the fold on a USD basis I think.

Dicey chuckles and asks, "Sez who?" It's not like anybody's checking portfolios at the door.

Funny, the more I have, the less I include in my (mostly mental) net worth calculations. The value of cars, household gioods, tools, etc. are just the beginning of a list of things I rarely bother to think about, much less count anymore. Post-FIRE, a spitball estimate works just fine for me. Pre-FIRE, I tracked everything.

Yeah, my mental NW is way different than my actual NW, in reality my mental NW is only my investments that I will be living off of at 3-4% WR.   My actual NW also has house, college funds, HSA accounts, and a few sinking fund accounts for home/auto repairs and auto replacement and vacation funds.   I never include any personal property.   

BTW - Those sinking funds have grown quite large as I have put in about $750/month for a long time but then never transferred money out of them as I incurred those expenses. Now that I am FIRE though I still send the $750/mo but will start withdrawing as consumed.

I just distinguish between net worth and "FIRE stash."

Net worth includes home, emergency fund, 529s, etc.  I don't bother counting cars or personal property because it's not spendable money unless I am willing to sell them, and if I am willing to sell them then I should probably just get on with it, so everything I own other than my house is pretty much earmarked to be used until its worn down and unusable.

My "FIRE stash" excludes all of those items.  It's basically retirement funds plus taxable investment accounts. 

If you own rental property, I think you either calculate it based on NOI and leave out the equity or you calculate the equity and ignore the NOI.  Because you can't get at the equity unless you give up the NOI.  I'd probably use NOI personally and treat rental property as an income source and ignore the equity. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on August 17, 2020, 05:12:54 PM

It's time for me to step in, right on cue, and wave my little "rentals count in NW tallies" flag.  Net worth is... NET WORTH. 

Reminder:  Not everybody takes the same path.  If I inherited the Hope Diamond or an original Banksy or the Mona Lisa, it would count.   Does my wedding ring count?... no, of course not, because I don't plan on selling it as an asset.    We have more rentals than I can count on my fingers, they're all paid for.  Like @SwordGuy, we also have farmland.  It's not a backyard garden with a few tomato plants.   We don't live in all these houses, they are liquid assets.  We're pretty far into the "and beyond" category and it's about 90% RE equity.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on August 17, 2020, 05:48:51 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on August 17, 2020, 05:12:54 PM

It's time for me to step in, right on cue, and wave my little "rentals count in NW tallies" flag.  Net worth is... NET WORTH. 

Reminder:  Not everybody takes the same path.  If I inherited the Hope Diamond or an original Banksy or the Mona Lisa, it would count.   Does my wedding ring count?... no, of course not, because I don't plan on selling it as an asset.    We have more rentals than I can count on my fingers, they're all paid for.  Like @SwordGuy, we also have farmland.  It's not a backyard garden with a few tomato plants.   We don't live in all these houses, they are liquid assets.  We're pretty far into the "and beyond" category and it's about 90% RE equity.

Of course rentals count for net worth.  But the equity for net worth shouldn't count for the 4% rule because you cannot unlock that equity unless you sell, and if you sell you can't count the income. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on August 17, 2020, 09:44:25 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on August 17, 2020, 05:48:51 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on August 17, 2020, 05:12:54 PM

It's time for me to step in, right on cue, and wave my little "rentals count in NW tallies" flag.  Net worth is... NET WORTH. 

Reminder:  Not everybody takes the same path.  If I inherited the Hope Diamond or an original Banksy or the Mona Lisa, it would count.   Does my wedding ring count?... no, of course not, because I don't plan on selling it as an asset.    We have more rentals than I can count on my fingers, they're all paid for.  Like @SwordGuy, we also have farmland.  It's not a backyard garden with a few tomato plants.   We don't live in all these houses, they are liquid assets.  We're pretty far into the "and beyond" category and it's about 90% RE equity.

Of course rentals count for net worth.  But the equity for net worth shouldn't count for the 4% rule because you cannot unlock that equity unless you sell, and if you sell you can't count the income.

Correct, I wouldn't use equity for the 4% rule, I'd use rental income return.  Our rents serve like your 4% draw down.  In both cases, the asset is left alone to earn its money.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 17, 2020, 10:04:30 PM

Net Worth is what it is.   Don't muck with it to turn it into something else.

FI Income is what it is.   Don't confuse it with Net Worth.   They are two different measurements that are used for two different purposes.

I started up a fun poll for people to track their Race to 100% FI a while back.  I included examples of what counts and what doesn't.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-to-100-fi!/
 (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-to-100-fi!/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 17, 2020, 10:27:37 PM

With no clue as how to turn this jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement, I'm going to move the goal posts out another 500K and see if that brings more clarity.   1.5 million was gonna be it.  Silly me.  Then 2 million.  Nope not a clue yet.  Then 2.5 million.  Nope, if anything I'm more nervous than ever.  Moving on to 3 million. That's got to be it right?  We'll see.  Probably more an age now than a number. Everthing gets easier taxwise at 55.  1077 days to go.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 17, 2020, 10:34:33 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 17, 2020, 10:27:37 PM

With no clue as how to turn this jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement, I'm going to move the goal posts out another 500K and see if that brings more clarity.   1.5 million was gonna be it.  Silly me.  Then 2 million.  Nope not a clue yet.  Then 2.5 million.  Nope, if anything I'm more nervous than ever.  Moving on to 3 million. That's got to be it right?  We'll see.  Probably more an age now than a number. Everthing gets easier taxwise at 55.  1077 days to go.

@Bateaux ,
How about entering a case study that shows your expenses, income streams as you understand them, and your assets?  Plus any goals you have that are relevant.

Pop a link to it here and I know most of us would be more than happy helping you understand how to turn it into sustainable income.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 17, 2020, 10:55:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 17, 2020, 11:38:18 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 17, 2020, 08:28:18 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 17, 2020, 07:48:39 AM

IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.

As in running the wrong race. 


I think "winning" is present tense, and "won" is past tense.  Winning is pleasurable to the ego, while retirement presents the fear of dealing with unknowns without a safety net or a familiar roadmap.  And there's also the fear of being with your mate 24/7, without the hormones of a newly wed couple.  ;)

There are these little blue pills you can get..:)

That’s not mustachian.  You don’t get blue pills that cost $40, you get white pills for $1.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 17, 2020, 10:59:20 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 17, 2020, 10:34:33 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 17, 2020, 10:27:37 PM

With no clue as how to turn this jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement, I'm going to move the goal posts out another 500K and see if that brings more clarity.   1.5 million was gonna be it.  Silly me.  Then 2 million.  Nope not a clue yet.  Then 2.5 million.  Nope, if anything I'm more nervous than ever.  Moving on to 3 million. That's got to be it right?  We'll see.  Probably more an age now than a number. Everthing gets easier taxwise at 55.  1077 days to go.

@Bateaux ,
How about entering a case study that shows your expenses, income streams as you understand them, and your assets?  Plus any goals you have that are relevant.

Pop a link to it here and I know most of us would be more than happy helping you understand how to turn it into sustainable income.

There is just too much chaos in the system.  Maybe at the end of the year we'll try and come up with a plan.  I appreciate the offer and when the time comes, I'll be very open to opinion.  I value your experiences far more than talking to some dimshit at Edward Jones or Ameritrade.  The changes have to be made internal first.  We'll see what January brings and go from there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 17, 2020, 11:21:21 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 17, 2020, 10:59:20 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 17, 2020, 10:34:33 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 17, 2020, 10:27:37 PM

With no clue as how to turn this jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement, I'm going to move the goal posts out another 500K and see if that brings more clarity.   1.5 million was gonna be it.  Silly me.  Then 2 million.  Nope not a clue yet.  Then 2.5 million.  Nope, if anything I'm more nervous than ever.  Moving on to 3 million. That's got to be it right?  We'll see.  Probably more an age now than a number. Everthing gets easier taxwise at 55.  1077 days to go.

@Bateaux ,
How about entering a case study that shows your expenses, income streams as you understand them, and your assets?  Plus any goals you have that are relevant.

Pop a link to it here and I know most of us would be more than happy helping you understand how to turn it into sustainable income.

There is just too much chaos in the system.  Maybe at the end of the year we'll try and come up with a plan.  I appreciate the offer and when the time comes, I'll be very open to opinion.  I value your experiences far more than talking to some dimshit at Edward Jones or Ameritrade.  The changes have to be made internal first.  We'll see what January brings and go from there.

1077 day isn't all that long.  It'll fly by. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 18, 2020, 04:51:55 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 17, 2020, 11:21:21 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 17, 2020, 10:59:20 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 17, 2020, 10:34:33 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 17, 2020, 10:27:37 PM

With no clue as how to turn this jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement, I'm going to move the goal posts out another 500K and see if that brings more clarity.   1.5 million was gonna be it.  Silly me.  Then 2 million.  Nope not a clue yet.  Then 2.5 million.  Nope, if anything I'm more nervous than ever.  Moving on to 3 million. That's got to be it right?  We'll see.  Probably more an age now than a number. Everthing gets easier taxwise at 55.  1077 days to go.

@Bateaux ,
How about entering a case study that shows your expenses, income streams as you understand them, and your assets?  Plus any goals you have that are relevant.

Pop a link to it here and I know most of us would be more than happy helping you understand how to turn it into sustainable income.

There is just too much chaos in the system.  Maybe at the end of the year we'll try and come up with a plan.  I appreciate the offer and when the time comes, I'll be very open to opinion.  I value your experiences far more than talking to some dimshit at Edward Jones or Ameritrade.  The changes have to be made internal first.  We'll see what January brings and go from there.

1077 day isn't all that long.  It'll fly by.

I missed something, y does turning 55 make taxes easier? Just making sure since I'm in that category I am not missing something! I also agree the 1077 days will fly buy

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 18, 2020, 06:39:23 AM

No way would I work a thousand extra days I didn't need to. You could spend 77 days learning how turn your "jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement" and get the hell out of the rat race. Isn't that the whole point? It kinda sounds like you feel trapped, which might just be an illusion of your own making.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 18, 2020, 08:25:49 AM

I had a checkup at the doctor yesterday.  It was the first checkup since retiring.  He told me that of the people he has seen that retire 75 percent see their health improve.  The other 25 percent have worked physical jobs and are either worn out or take time to slow down without compensating in other ways.

Hard to put a value on all the hiking and other stuff you guys have been talking about.  The hiking and other stuff can have secondary benefits to be considered.

I want to be in the majority the doctor spoke of.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 18, 2020, 09:21:13 AM

NW is kinda useful to feel good about progress in success, but I would not recommend using it to determine FI readiness. I have found lifetime net household cash flow projections much more useful. So I don’t even use the 4% rule, too simplistic.

And I am also trapped at work, due to my own making. It’s the whole “downsize and retire now” or “just work three more years and keep current lifestyle”. Plus I also have a lot of change/chaos going on in life. Will be more settled in three years. Choices, choices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 18, 2020, 09:25:43 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 17, 2020, 10:55:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 17, 2020, 11:38:18 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 17, 2020, 08:28:18 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 17, 2020, 07:48:39 AM

IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.

As in running the wrong race. 


I think "winning" is present tense, and "won" is past tense.  Winning is pleasurable to the ego, while retirement presents the fear of dealing with unknowns without a safety net or a familiar roadmap.  And there's also the fear of being with your mate 24/7, without the hormones of a newly wed couple.  ;)

There are these little blue pills you can get..:)

That’s not mustachian.  You don’t get blue pills that cost $40, you get white pills for $1.

I had no idea what they cost.. I will bow to your considerable expertise on the matter..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 18, 2020, 09:35:19 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 18, 2020, 06:39:23 AM

No way would I work a thousand extra days I didn't need to. You could spend 77 days learning how turn your "jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement" and get the hell out of the rat race. Isn't that the whole point? It kinda sounds like you feel trapped, which might just be an illusion of your own making.

I guess I'm grasping for excuses.  August 1st 2020 is the day I became pension eligible.   In 2012 the company robbed most of the pension and extended employee medical insurance coverage to minimum age 55.  Also if you work till 55 then you can get your 401K without the 10 percent penality.  No need for 72T calculations.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 18, 2020, 09:37:46 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 18, 2020, 08:25:49 AM

I had a checkup at the doctor yesterday.  It was the first checkup since retiring.  He told me that of the people he has seen that retire 75 percent see their health improve.  The other 25 percent have worked physical jobs and are either worn out or take time to slow down without compensating in other ways.

Hard to put a value on all the hiking and other stuff you guys have been talking about.  The hiking and other stuff can have secondary benefits to be considered.

I want to be in the majority the doctor spoke of.

Having the body for an active lifestyle is important.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on August 18, 2020, 09:39:26 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 18, 2020, 04:51:55 AM

I missed something, y does turning 55 make taxes easier? Just making sure since I'm in that category I am not missing something!

Most employer-managed retirement plans allow you to take penalty-free (but not tax free) disbursals if you "separate from service" in the year you turn 55 or later.  You have to check the details of your plan to see what type of disbursals are allowed -- some only allow a single lump sum withdrawal.  The rule does not apply to IRA rollovers.

https://tickertape.tdameritrade.com/retirement/rule-of-55-withdrawals-15977

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 18, 2020, 09:42:28 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 18, 2020, 09:21:13 AM

NW is kinda useful to feel good about progress in success, but I would not recommend using it to determine FI readiness. I have found lifetime net household cash flow projections much more useful. So I don’t even use the 4% rule, too simplistic.

And I am also trapped at work, due to my own making. It’s the whole “downsize and retire now” or “just work three more years and keep current lifestyle”. Plus I also have a lot of change/chaos going on in life. Will be more settled in three years. Choices, choices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Those golden handcuffs are coated in kid leather at times.   At 28 years working for one company, going to work is like brushing your teeth.  You don't really have to think all that much about it. My Arkansas bikepacking trip next month and October backpacking trip are a hell of a lot harder.  Some vacation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 18, 2020, 09:56:56 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 18, 2020, 09:25:43 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 17, 2020, 10:55:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 17, 2020, 11:38:18 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 17, 2020, 08:28:18 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 17, 2020, 07:48:39 AM

IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.

As in running the wrong race. 


I think "winning" is present tense, and "won" is past tense.  Winning is pleasurable to the ego, while retirement presents the fear of dealing with unknowns without a safety net or a familiar roadmap.  And there's also the fear of being with your mate 24/7, without the hormones of a newly wed couple.  ;)

There are these little blue pills you can get..:)

That’s not mustachian.  You don’t get blue pills that cost $40, you get white pills for $1.

I had no idea what they cost.. I will bow to your considerable expertise on the matter..:)

Lulz. I really do think I should briefly hijack the thread and have a fireside chat about Erectile Dysfunction and how darn near 100% of guys have it. That’d be fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 18, 2020, 10:51:58 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 18, 2020, 09:56:56 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 18, 2020, 09:25:43 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 17, 2020, 10:55:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 17, 2020, 11:38:18 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 17, 2020, 08:28:18 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 17, 2020, 07:48:39 AM

IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.

As in running the wrong race. 


I think "winning" is present tense, and "won" is past tense.  Winning is pleasurable to the ego, while retirement presents the fear of dealing with unknowns without a safety net or a familiar roadmap.  And there's also the fear of being with your mate 24/7, without the hormones of a newly wed couple.  ;)

There are these little blue pills you can get..:)

That’s not mustachian.  You don’t get blue pills that cost $40, you get white pills for $1.

I had no idea what they cost.. I will bow to your considerable expertise on the matter..:)

Lulz. I really do think I should briefly hijack the thread and have a fireside chat about Erectile Dysfunction and how darn near 100% of guys have it. That’d be fun.

Yeah, seriously, I'm sure its one of those dirty little secrets that isn't talked about.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 18, 2020, 11:03:32 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 18, 2020, 09:37:46 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 18, 2020, 08:25:49 AM

I had a checkup at the doctor yesterday.  It was the first checkup since retiring.  He told me that of the people he has seen that retire 75 percent see their health improve.  The other 25 percent have worked physical jobs and are either worn out or take time to slow down without compensating in other ways.

Hard to put a value on all the hiking and other stuff you guys have been talking about.  The hiking and other stuff can have secondary benefits to be considered.

I want to be in the majority the doctor spoke of.

Having the body for an active lifestyle is important.

I'm sure most of those people were older than 55.  That looks like a magic number when you can bid them adieu.  Working a little longer may buy you some great value for the next 30 years after you retire.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on August 18, 2020, 01:49:18 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 18, 2020, 09:35:19 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 18, 2020, 06:39:23 AM

No way would I work a thousand extra days I didn't need to. You could spend 77 days learning how turn your "jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement" and get the hell out of the rat race. Isn't that the whole point? It kinda sounds like you feel trapped, which might just be an illusion of your own making.

I guess I'm grasping for excuses.  August 1st 2020 is the day I became pension eligible.   In 2012 the company robbed most of the pension and extended employee medical insurance coverage to minimum age 55.  Also if you work till 55 then you can get your 401K without the 10 percent penality.  No need for 72T calculations.

When I was at your stage, I was combing through HR policies and benefits looking for any way to shorten my time at work.  It doesn't sound like you're too fed up from work yet, so that's a difference between my situation and yours.

However, you can maybe shave off some of those 1,077 days.

As lhamo pointed out, the no-penalty 401(k) rule is separation from service in the year in which you turn 55.  So depending on when your birthday is, you could retire on January 1st at 54-something and still use that rule.  If you haven't already, it would also behoove you to check your 401(k) plan documents to ensure that they will allow you to access your money on the schedule that works for you.  While federal law says they have to allow penalty-free withdrawals, some plans restrict the timing and amounts of your withdrawals.

You could also use up all your vacation and maybe even do a FMLA or personal leave in the months prior to the January 1st of the year in which you turn 55 to shorten it even more.  I did something like that where I did a personal leave of absence 10 weeks prior to my last juicy stock option vest.  I was still employed so the stock options were still intact.  You could do a similar thing with your 401(k) plan.

While 72(t) plans aren't common, the calculations are literally fifth grade math.  Maybe even fourth grade.  If you don't want to do the 72(t) for other reasons, that would make sense, but doing literally two minutes of calculations once a year doesn't seem like much of a reason.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 18, 2020, 01:57:16 PM

I've known people to use time just before retirement to get work done on themselves like knee replacements, etc.  They were not only able to take advantage of the good insurance while they still had it, but they were also not there as they were healing up.  Perhaps, this could be an option to use some of the pre-55 time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 18, 2020, 02:03:09 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 18, 2020, 01:57:16 PM

I've known people to use time just before retirement to get work done on themselves like knee replacements, etc.  They were not only able to take advantage of the good insurance while they still had it, but they were also not there as they were healing up.  Perhaps, this could be an option to use some of the pre-55 time.

I like the way you think...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 18, 2020, 03:45:47 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 18, 2020, 02:03:09 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 18, 2020, 01:57:16 PM

I've known people to use time just before retirement to get work done on themselves like knee replacements, etc.  They were not only able to take advantage of the good insurance while they still had it, but they were also not there as they were healing up.  Perhaps, this could be an option to use some of the pre-55 time.

I like the way you think...

Ditto-makes alot of sense!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 18, 2020, 06:00:50 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 18, 2020, 01:57:16 PM

I've known people to use time just before retirement to get work done on themselves like knee replacements, etc.  They were not only able to take advantage of the good insurance while they still had it, but they were also not there as they were healing up.  Perhaps, this could be an option to use some of the pre-55 time.

Unless your spouse keeps working and provides insurance :-P

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 18, 2020, 10:07:59 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 18, 2020, 01:49:18 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 18, 2020, 09:35:19 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 18, 2020, 06:39:23 AM

No way would I work a thousand extra days I didn't need to. You could spend 77 days learning how turn your "jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement" and get the hell out of the rat race. Isn't that the whole point? It kinda sounds like you feel trapped, which might just be an illusion of your own making.

I guess I'm grasping for excuses.  August 1st 2020 is the day I became pension eligible.   In 2012 the company robbed most of the pension and extended employee medical insurance coverage to minimum age 55.  Also if you work till 55 then you can get your 401K without the 10 percent penality.  No need for 72T calculations.

When I was at your stage, I was combing through HR policies and benefits looking for any way to shorten my time at work.  It doesn't sound like you're too fed up from work yet, so that's a difference between my situation and yours.

However, you can maybe shave off some of those 1,077 days.

As lhamo pointed out, the no-penalty 401(k) rule is separation from service in the year in which you turn 55.  So depending on when your birthday is, you could retire on January 1st at 54-something and still use that rule.  If you haven't already, it would also behoove you to check your 401(k) plan documents to ensure that they will allow you to access your money on the schedule that works for you.  While federal law says they have to allow penalty-free withdrawals, some plans restrict the timing and amounts of your withdrawals.

You could also use up all your vacation and maybe even do a FMLA or personal leave in the months prior to the January 1st of the year in which you turn 55 to shorten it even more.  I did something like that where I did a personal leave of absence 10 weeks prior to my last juicy stock option vest.  I was still employed so the stock options were still intact.  You could do a similar thing with your 401(k) plan.

While 72(t) plans aren't common, the calculations are literally fifth grade math.  Maybe even fourth grade.  If you don't want to do the 72(t) for other reasons, that would make sense, but doing literally two minutes of calculations once a year doesn't seem like much of a reason.

 I knew that the year you turn 55 is what makes you qualified.  But for my company medical coverage I must work till 55.  My 7 weeks a year of paid time off can make that easier.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 19, 2020, 06:28:43 AM

I’m in the same boat as Bateaux, but with my Federal special category pension with lifetime health insurance, my age is 47.  I have 59 months to go.

 I could FIRE now in theory, but my inner bag lady says no way.  I ran the numbers a few years ago and the difference in pension and benefits is like giving away $1.5. Million.   In reality, I likely won’t do much at work in 2025 so it’s more like 53 months.  I won’t be expected to take on any long term projects because they would just need to be passed onto someone else.  I also could take leave without pay for my last 6 months plus I’ll have unused leave for at least another month that I may or may not take.  (Unused leave gets paid out).  I’m currently working through logistics of a change in scenery to make the life side more interesting for the next few years in order to make the months pass quicker.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 19, 2020, 08:03:09 AM

Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 19, 2020, 08:46:22 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 19, 2020, 08:03:09 AM

Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.

We still have about a million exposed to this market.   FOMO and greed keeps me in.  This economy will not stand on it's own anytime soon.  It's all about more stimulus (debt).  Who is gling to be the adult and take the punch bowl away?  Will the Biden administration put on big boy pants and focus on debt?  I doubt it.   So this works as long as it works.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 19, 2020, 08:57:49 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 19, 2020, 08:03:09 AM

Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.

After watching how slow VTI has recovered I can't help but reconsider the reasoning for choosing it over something like VUG or QQQ.  It seems like the bigger players have done so much better recently, actually the past 10 years according to portfoliovisulizer.com.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:11:11 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 19, 2020, 08:46:22 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 19, 2020, 08:03:09 AM

Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.

We still have about a million exposed to this market.   FOMO and greed keeps me in.  This economy will not stand on it's own anytime soon.  It's all about more stimulus (debt).  Who is gling to be the adult and take the punch bowl away?  Will the Biden administration put on big boy pants and focus on debt?  I doubt it.   So this works as long as it works.

Nobody will be focusing on the debt or deficit any time soon.   Republicans will keep taxes lower or take them even lower and fund more stimulus (money for nothing) and money shall continue to print to the sky.  If democrats take over then they will raise taxes across the board to fund about 30% of their agenda and more stimulus (money for nothing) so the other 70% will also require printing money to the sky. 

As an investor and FIRE person I have mixed feelings about each, on one hand low taxes and stimulus is good for markets so my stash will be ever larger (until its not), on the other the tax proposals from the dems will be bad for markets but if I get lower or even free expanded health care AND college for everyone (I have 3 kids 11-15) AND the tax rates only go up for really wealthy then maybe for me individually I actually do about the same from a WR view point.  Plus all that money I set aside for college is now mine again so maybe I end up with more, haha.

Crystal Ball Dream scenarios
Republicans Win - move all to equities, reps win and lower taxes even more and provides stimulus, markets get to even crazier levels.

Democrats Win - move all to bonds/cash, dems win, taxes go up, markets go down but still crazy levels bc just lost 16% of income to taxes, then buy back in.  Also get free health care and my kids get free college.   That all sounds nice.

Of course, I wouldn't be all stocks or all bonds/cash so I can't participate in the dreams.  But my portfolio is the most conservative its ever been so I am fairly hedged either way I suppose. 

BTW, I fully expect Biden to win and the house will certainly remain democrat but I am not sure (nobody is) about what will happen in the senate.   Personally I would like Biden to win and the senate to stay republican as I think some balance or discourse is good for everyone.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:14:33 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 19, 2020, 08:57:49 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 19, 2020, 08:03:09 AM

Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.

After watching how slow VTI has recovered I can't help but reconsider the reasoning for choosing it over something like VUG or QQQ.  It seems like the bigger players have done so much better recently, actually the past 10 years according to portfoliovisulizer.com.

Hindsight is a bitch, but really its all about a handful of companies driving it, all of which are in VTI too and most are in SP 500 - really those handful of companies are 25% of SP 500

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 19, 2020, 09:39:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 18, 2020, 10:07:59 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 18, 2020, 01:49:18 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 18, 2020, 09:35:19 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 18, 2020, 06:39:23 AM

No way would I work a thousand extra days I didn't need to. You could spend 77 days learning how turn your "jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement" and get the hell out of the rat race. Isn't that the whole point? It kinda sounds like you feel trapped, which might just be an illusion of your own making.

I guess I'm grasping for excuses.  August 1st 2020 is the day I became pension eligible.   In 2012 the company robbed most of the pension and extended employee medical insurance coverage to minimum age 55.  Also if you work till 55 then you can get your 401K without the 10 percent penality.  No need for 72T calculations.

When I was at your stage, I was combing through HR policies and benefits looking for any way to shorten my time at work.  It doesn't sound like you're too fed up from work yet, so that's a difference between my situation and yours.

However, you can maybe shave off some of those 1,077 days.

As lhamo pointed out, the no-penalty 401(k) rule is separation from service in the year in which you turn 55.  So depending on when your birthday is, you could retire on January 1st at 54-something and still use that rule.  If you haven't already, it would also behoove you to check your 401(k) plan documents to ensure that they will allow you to access your money on the schedule that works for you.  While federal law says they have to allow penalty-free withdrawals, some plans restrict the timing and amounts of your withdrawals.

You could also use up all your vacation and maybe even do a FMLA or personal leave in the months prior to the January 1st of the year in which you turn 55 to shorten it even more.  I did something like that where I did a personal leave of absence 10 weeks prior to my last juicy stock option vest.  I was still employed so the stock options were still intact.  You could do a similar thing with your 401(k) plan.

While 72(t) plans aren't common, the calculations are literally fifth grade math.  Maybe even fourth grade.  If you don't want to do the 72(t) for other reasons, that would make sense, but doing literally two minutes of calculations once a year doesn't seem like much of a reason.

 I knew that the year you turn 55 is what makes you qualified.  But for my company medical coverage I must work till 55.  My 7 weeks a year of paid time off can make that easier.

Hey @Bateaux, all of my comments were based solely on the fact that you clearly have a big-ass 'stache. This pension/benefits situation sheds a whole new light on things. I totally understand the importance of healthcare and the unwillingness to walk away from something you've worked so long to earn, i.e. the pension. My husband's in the same boat. I'm going to change my response from now on and I solemnly swear to stop nagging you about retiring. I encourage you to do everything in your power to make the next 1000+ days as carefree as possible.

Tl:Dr - No more RE shit from Dicey. I get it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 19, 2020, 09:53:43 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:14:33 AM

- SNIP -

Hindsight is a bitch, but really its all about a handful of companies driving it, all of which are in VTI too and most are in SP 500 - really those handful of companies are 25% of SP 500

I do not know what you people do, but here's what I see.

Looks like a bubble.  I've been hearing about Tesla.  They make a good product, I guess, but I don't see very many of them on the road.  There are no Tesla dealers around.  You can figure people are investing in the future, but in the future all the car companies will be selling more electric cars.  Maybe it is similar with those few other companies pushing the market up.

So you say - the government has been printing money and it has to go somewhere.  It goes into stocks. The stocks are a piece of a company.  The company is not worth as much as its stocks that are out there.  Looks like a bubble.

Some say there are really up to 30 percent of people out of work.  The U.S. economy shrank by 32.9 percent in the second three months of 2020. That's the worst quarter in history, according to data dating back to the 1940s.  Looks like a bubble.

I expect a drop, but will ride it out.  I expect positive changes after next November.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 19, 2020, 10:27:23 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 19, 2020, 09:53:43 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:14:33 AM

- SNIP -

Hindsight is a bitch, but really its all about a handful of companies driving it, all of which are in VTI too and most are in SP 500 - really those handful of companies are 25% of SP 500

I do not know what you people do, but here's what I see.

Looks like a bubble.  I've been hearing about Tesla.  They make a good product, I guess, but I don't see very many of them on the road.  There are no Tesla dealers around.  You can figure people are investing in the future, but in the future all the car companies will be selling more electric cars.  Maybe it is similar with those few other companies pushing the market up.

So you say - the government has been printing money and it has to go somewhere.  It goes into stocks. The stocks are a piece of a company.  The company is not worth as much as its stocks that are out there.  Looks like a bubble.

Some say there are really up to 30 percent of people out of work.  The U.S. economy shrank by 32.9 percent in the second three months of 2020. That's the worst quarter in history, according to data dating back to the 1940s.  Looks like a bubble.

I expect a drop, but will ride it out.  I expect positive changes after next November.

OMG, in California, they're everywhere! And they have "dealerships" in malls and shopping centers. They typically have three vehicles in them. I think the one in my town is still closed due to the pandemic, but it's so low profile, it would be hard to tell.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 19, 2020, 10:57:58 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:14:33 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 19, 2020, 08:57:49 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 19, 2020, 08:03:09 AM

Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.

After watching how slow VTI has recovered I can't help but reconsider the reasoning for choosing it over something like VUG or QQQ.  It seems like the bigger players have done so much better recently, actually the past 10 years according to portfoliovisulizer.com.

Hindsight is a bitch, but really its all about a handful of companies driving it, all of which are in VTI too and most are in SP 500 - really those handful of companies are 25% of SP 500

I worried about this too, but looking at the data (https://www.investopedia.com/top-10-s-and-p-500-stocks-by-index-weight-4843111) made me a little more comfortable.  The top 10 stocks making up the S&P500 index (weighing in at 27.1%), as of June 30, 2020, are:

MSFT   6%
AAPL   5.8% 
AMZN  4.5%
FB       2.1%
GOOGL 1.7%
GOOG   1.6%
JNJ       1.5%
BRK.B   1.4%
V          1.3%
PG        1.2%

The only one I really don't want to own so much of is Facebook, personally.  Now, this might change if TSLA is added to the index, but it will still be at a relatively small percentage if it happens.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 11:53:54 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 19, 2020, 09:53:43 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:14:33 AM

- SNIP -

Hindsight is a bitch, but really its all about a handful of companies driving it, all of which are in VTI too and most are in SP 500 - really those handful of companies are 25% of SP 500

I do not know what you people do, but here's what I see.

Looks like a bubble.  I've been hearing about Tesla.  They make a good product, I guess, but I don't see very many of them on the road.  There are no Tesla dealers around.  You can figure people are investing in the future, but in the future all the car companies will be selling more electric cars.  Maybe it is similar with those few other companies pushing the market up.

So you say - the government has been printing money and it has to go somewhere.  It goes into stocks. The stocks are a piece of a company.  The company is not worth as much as its stocks that are out there.  Looks like a bubble.

Some say there are really up to 30 percent of people out of work.  The U.S. economy shrank by 32.9 percent in the second three months of 2020. That's the worst quarter in history, according to data dating back to the 1940s.  Looks like a bubble.

I expect a drop, but will ride it out.  I expect positive changes after next November.

I kind of agree, feels bubble'ish but not quite there but it is all fed induced multiple expansion and bunch of millennials gambling at home.   While TSLA stock makes no sense to me at all nor did Amazon a long time ago or now for that matter) not seeing them on the road could be perceived as an opportunity for growth. 

Ton of people out of work but until recently many still got paid via UE and stimulus and about 65% made more being unemployed than they did while working.   There is a reason why all these retailers (Home Depot, Lowes, Target, Amazon) are blowing out their earnings estimates, some by 30% or more. Also bc people couldn't spend any money on travel, restaurants, small shops, last quarter.  Will these big retails grow 30% again, probably not.  I don't know how small business comes back though.

The GDP figure is irrelevant bc it was essentially a forced shut down not a natural recession - GDP in this quarter and especially the next few are far more important and will be more representative of the actual drop in GDP. 

I still feel like you do, haven't run for the hills but will maintain my conservative AA but I did shift about 5% of my portfolio from SP500 to SP500 value fund. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 12:04:35 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 19, 2020, 10:57:58 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:14:33 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 19, 2020, 08:57:49 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 19, 2020, 08:03:09 AM

Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.

After watching how slow VTI has recovered I can't help but reconsider the reasoning for choosing it over something like VUG or QQQ.  It seems like the bigger players have done so much better recently, actually the past 10 years according to portfoliovisulizer.com.

Hindsight is a bitch, but really its all about a handful of companies driving it, all of which are in VTI too and most are in SP 500 - really those handful of companies are 25% of SP 500

I worried about this too, but looking at the data (https://www.investopedia.com/top-10-s-and-p-500-stocks-by-index-weight-4843111) made me a little more comfortable.  The top 10 stocks making up the S&P500 index (weighing in at 27.1%), as of June 30, 2020, are:

MSFT   6%
AAPL   5.8% 
AMZN  4.5%
FB       2.1%
GOOGL 1.7%
GOOG   1.6%
JNJ       1.5%
BRK.B   1.4%
V          1.3%
PG        1.2%

The only one I really don't want to own so much of is Facebook, personally.  Now, this might change if TSLA is added to the index, but it will still be at a relatively small percentage if it happens.

The top 5 currently are about 25% of SP500 as most have run up a lot since 6/30.  But as you say, its not horrible but I personally were investing in individual stocks I don't think I would want any that are that much of my portfolio. Maybe not, maybe, not sure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 19, 2020, 02:31:09 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:11:11 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 19, 2020, 08:46:22 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 19, 2020, 08:03:09 AM

Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.

We still have about a million exposed to this market.   FOMO and greed keeps me in.  This economy will not stand on it's own anytime soon.  It's all about more stimulus (debt).  Who is gling to be the adult and take the punch bowl away?  Will the Biden administration put on big boy pants and focus on debt?  I doubt it.   So this works as long as it works.

Nobody will be focusing on the debt or deficit any time soon.   Republicans will keep taxes lower or take them even lower and fund more stimulus (money for nothing) and money shall continue to print to the sky.  If democrats take over then they will raise taxes across the board to fund about 30% of their agenda and more stimulus (money for nothing) so the other 70% will also require printing money to the sky. 

As an investor and FIRE person I have mixed feelings about each, on one hand low taxes and stimulus is good for markets so my stash will be ever larger (until its not), on the other the tax proposals from the dems will be bad for markets but if I get lower or even free expanded health care AND college for everyone (I have 3 kids 11-15) AND the tax rates only go up for really wealthy then maybe for me individually I actually do about the same from a WR view point.  Plus all that money I set aside for college is now mine again so maybe I end up with more, haha.

Crystal Ball Dream scenarios
Republicans Win - move all to equities, reps win and lower taxes even more and provides stimulus, markets get to even crazier levels.

Democrats Win - move all to bonds/cash, dems win, taxes go up, markets go down but still crazy levels bc just lost 16% of income to taxes, then buy back in.  Also get free health care and my kids get free college.   That all sounds nice.

Of course, I wouldn't be all stocks or all bonds/cash so I can't participate in the dreams.  But my portfolio is the most conservative its ever been so I am fairly hedged either way I suppose. 

BTW, I fully expect Biden to win and the house will certainly remain democrat but I am not sure (nobody is) about what will happen in the senate.   Personally I would like Biden to win and the senate to stay republican as I think some balance or discourse is good for everyone.   

Great analysis. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on August 19, 2020, 02:38:22 PM

why the assumption that markets go down with a democratic president?
Did you check that against whats happened historically?

I think the markets go up with stability.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 19, 2020, 02:38:44 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 19, 2020, 09:39:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 18, 2020, 10:07:59 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 18, 2020, 01:49:18 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 18, 2020, 09:35:19 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 18, 2020, 06:39:23 AM

No way would I work a thousand extra days I didn't need to. You could spend 77 days learning how turn your "jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement" and get the hell out of the rat race. Isn't that the whole point? It kinda sounds like you feel trapped, which might just be an illusion of your own making.

I guess I'm grasping for excuses.  August 1st 2020 is the day I became pension eligible.   In 2012 the company robbed most of the pension and extended employee medical insurance coverage to minimum age 55.  Also if you work till 55 then you can get your 401K without the 10 percent penality.  No need for 72T calculations.

When I was at your stage, I was combing through HR policies and benefits looking for any way to shorten my time at work.  It doesn't sound like you're too fed up from work yet, so that's a difference between my situation and yours.

However, you can maybe shave off some of those 1,077 days.

As lhamo pointed out, the no-penalty 401(k) rule is separation from service in the year in which you turn 55.  So depending on when your birthday is, you could retire on January 1st at 54-something and still use that rule.  If you haven't already, it would also behoove you to check your 401(k) plan documents to ensure that they will allow you to access your money on the schedule that works for you.  While federal law says they have to allow penalty-free withdrawals, some plans restrict the timing and amounts of your withdrawals.

You could also use up all your vacation and maybe even do a FMLA or personal leave in the months prior to the January 1st of the year in which you turn 55 to shorten it even more.  I did something like that where I did a personal leave of absence 10 weeks prior to my last juicy stock option vest.  I was still employed so the stock options were still intact.  You could do a similar thing with your 401(k) plan.

While 72(t) plans aren't common, the calculations are literally fifth grade math.  Maybe even fourth grade.  If you don't want to do the 72(t) for other reasons, that would make sense, but doing literally two minutes of calculations once a year doesn't seem like much of a reason.

 I knew that the year you turn 55 is what makes you qualified.  But for my company medical coverage I must work till 55.  My 7 weeks a year of paid time off can make that easier.

Hey @Bateaux, all of my comments were based solely on the fact that you clearly have a big-ass 'stache. This pension/benefits situation sheds a whole new light on things. I totally understand the importance of healthcare and the unwillingness to walk away from something you've worked so long to earn, i.e. the pension. My husband's in the same boat. I'm going to change my response from now on and I solemnly swear to stop nagging you about retiring. I encourage you to do everything in your power to make the next 1000+ days as carefree as possible.

Tl:Dr - No more RE shit from Dicey. I get it.

Dicey you are wonderful and never a nag.  I'm just glad you are here and put extreme value on evey word you type.
I probably put a bit too much emotion into what I share here.  I could keep things more empirical,  but sometimes i just cast it out unfiltered.   This thread with the expressed thoughts of the people here are a very important part of my life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 19, 2020, 02:40:20 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 19, 2020, 09:53:43 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:14:33 AM

- SNIP -

Hindsight is a bitch, but really its all about a handful of companies driving it, all of which are in VTI too and most are in SP 500 - really those handful of companies are 25% of SP 500

I do not know what you people do, but here's what I see.

I share your outlook.

Looks like a bubble.  I've been hearing about Tesla.  They make a good product, I guess, but I don't see very many of them on the road.  There are no Tesla dealers around.  You can figure people are investing in the future, but in the future all the car companies will be selling more electric cars.  Maybe it is similar with those few other companies pushing the market up.

So you say - the government has been printing money and it has to go somewhere.  It goes into stocks. The stocks are a piece of a company.  The company is not worth as much as its stocks that are out there.  Looks like a bubble.

Some say there are really up to 30 percent of people out of work.  The U.S. economy shrank by 32.9 percent in the second three months of 2020. That's the worst quarter in history, according to data dating back to the 1940s.  Looks like a bubble.

I expect a drop, but will ride it out.  I expect positive changes after next November.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 19, 2020, 02:45:54 PM

Quote from: UnleashHell on August 19, 2020, 02:38:22 PM

why the assumption that markets go down with a democratic president?
Did you check that against whats happened historically?

I think the markets go up with stability.

Going back a hundred years I think the GDP and stock market favor the democratic terms.

By the way, glad to see you posting here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 03:56:03 PM

Quote from: UnleashHell on August 19, 2020, 02:38:22 PM

why the assumption that markets go down with a democratic president?
Did you check that against whats happened historically?

I think the markets go up with stability.

If that were always true the markets wouldn't be where they are right now, let alone any time over the last 3 1/2 years. 

Aside from that observation, stability does matter but if we get drastic changes to tax code and increased regulation (both of which are part of the platform) then markets will be certainly impacted.   Also remember that when the MAGA tax cuts (specifically corporate) it resulted in lower taxes and net incomes of the public companies increasing by about 16%, that immediately translated to market gains.  The opposite would be equally true if it goes in the other direction (absent significant economic growth to overcome the increased taxes).

Quote from: Bateaux on August 19, 2020, 02:45:54 PM

Going back a hundred years I think the GDP and stock market favor the democratic terms.

By the way, glad to see you posting here.

I believe that is true as it relates to correlation with president terms.  But causation isn't really known (and probably can't)   I think it would be more complex than that as most agendas have don't get implemented right away and typically have some time to take affect.   

Not to mention the cyclical aspect of the markets and timing of when presidents start office.

Regardless, my comments are more about the math of agendas than the parties themselves.   

Under Trump we have had a great stock market (except for the that 6 month sabbatical known as covid) but SP500 earnings really haven't moved under him except for what is due to the tax cuts.  The rest is due to low interest rates driving multiple expansion - not real healthy. 

Before Trump you had Obama and he started at the markets were at the bottom after the financial crisis, so had nowhere to go but up (at least during first term).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 19, 2020, 09:08:31 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:11:11 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 19, 2020, 08:46:22 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 19, 2020, 08:03:09 AM

Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.

We still have about a million exposed to this market.   FOMO and greed keeps me in.  This economy will not stand on it's own anytime soon.  It's all about more stimulus (debt).  Who is gling to be the adult and take the punch bowl away?  Will the Biden administration put on big boy pants and focus on debt?  I doubt it.   So this works as long as it works.

Nobody will be focusing on the debt or deficit any time soon.   Republicans will keep taxes lower or take them even lower and fund more stimulus (money for nothing) and money shall continue to print to the sky.  If democrats take over then they will raise taxes across the board to fund about 30% of their agenda and more stimulus (money for nothing) so the other 70% will also require printing money to the sky. 

As an investor and FIRE person I have mixed feelings about each, on one hand low taxes and stimulus is good for markets so my stash will be ever larger (until its not), on the other the tax proposals from the dems will be bad for markets but if I get lower or even free expanded health care AND college for everyone (I have 3 kids 11-15) AND the tax rates only go up for really wealthy then maybe for me individually I actually do about the same from a WR view point.  Plus all that money I set aside for college is now mine again so maybe I end up with more, haha.

Crystal Ball Dream scenarios
Republicans Win - move all to equities, reps win and lower taxes even more and provides stimulus, markets get to even crazier levels.

Democrats Win - move all to bonds/cash, dems win, taxes go up, markets go down but still crazy levels bc just lost 16% of income to taxes, then buy back in.  Also get free health care and my kids get free college.   That all sounds nice.

Of course, I wouldn't be all stocks or all bonds/cash so I can't participate in the dreams.  But my portfolio is the most conservative its ever been so I am fairly hedged either way I suppose. 

BTW, I fully expect Biden to win and the house will certainly remain democrat but I am not sure (nobody is) about what will happen in the senate.   Personally I would like Biden to win and the senate to stay republican as I think some balance or discourse is good for everyone.   

Interesting analysis. I’m not placing bets on the outcome of the election. Since I don’t vote and am well known for disliking the two factions with a purple passion, I think it’s pretty safe to say I don’t have a dog in the fight.

I wouldn’t anticipate satisfactory or even competent delivery of “college for all” or expanded medical care, so I don’t think about it much.

I would expect the markets to continue as they have under a re-elected Trump. Under a Biden administration, I would expect some drop when the initial tax hikes surface. But that’ll change once the financial sector figures out it’s all show and no substance. 

I don’t see the election making a difference in my investing except at the fringes. I’m full speed ahead on DCAing into international equities. I might rotate a bit into US equities if the prices become more reasonable.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:54:38 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 19, 2020, 09:08:31 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:11:11 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 19, 2020, 08:46:22 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 19, 2020, 08:03:09 AM

Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.

We still have about a million exposed to this market.   FOMO and greed keeps me in.  This economy will not stand on it's own anytime soon.  It's all about more stimulus (debt).  Who is gling to be the adult and take the punch bowl away?  Will the Biden administration put on big boy pants and focus on debt?  I doubt it.   So this works as long as it works.

Nobody will be focusing on the debt or deficit any time soon.   Republicans will keep taxes lower or take them even lower and fund more stimulus (money for nothing) and money shall continue to print to the sky.  If democrats take over then they will raise taxes across the board to fund about 30% of their agenda and more stimulus (money for nothing) so the other 70% will also require printing money to the sky. 

As an investor and FIRE person I have mixed feelings about each, on one hand low taxes and stimulus is good for markets so my stash will be ever larger (until its not), on the other the tax proposals from the dems will be bad for markets but if I get lower or even free expanded health care AND college for everyone (I have 3 kids 11-15) AND the tax rates only go up for really wealthy then maybe for me individually I actually do about the same from a WR view point.  Plus all that money I set aside for college is now mine again so maybe I end up with more, haha.

Crystal Ball Dream scenarios
Republicans Win - move all to equities, reps win and lower taxes even more and provides stimulus, markets get to even crazier levels.

Democrats Win - move all to bonds/cash, dems win, taxes go up, markets go down but still crazy levels bc just lost 16% of income to taxes, then buy back in.  Also get free health care and my kids get free college.   That all sounds nice.

Of course, I wouldn't be all stocks or all bonds/cash so I can't participate in the dreams.  But my portfolio is the most conservative its ever been so I am fairly hedged either way I suppose. 

BTW, I fully expect Biden to win and the house will certainly remain democrat but I am not sure (nobody is) about what will happen in the senate.   Personally I would like Biden to win and the senate to stay republican as I think some balance or discourse is good for everyone.   

Interesting analysis. I’m not placing bets on the outcome of the election. Since I don’t vote and am well known for disliking the two factions with a purple passion, I think it’s pretty safe to say I don’t have a dog in the fight.

I wouldn’t anticipate satisfactory or even competent delivery of “college for all” or expanded medical care, so I don’t think about it much.

I would expect the markets to continue as they have under a re-elected Trump. Under a Biden administration, I would expect some drop when the initial tax hikes surface. But that’ll change once the financial sector figures out it’s all show and no substance. 

I don’t see the election making a difference in my investing except at the fringes. I’m full speed ahead on DCAing into international equities. I might rotate a bit into US equities if the prices become more reasonable.

I did say it was dream scenario on either side, not what I expect.  I already said what I expected to be the political outcome, but I fully expect further shit show and no increased medical or college for all.   I do expect more taxes, but that will be pressed by the fact that our economy is still in the shitter so the ambitions to raise taxes and further stymie the economy will have to be deferred for a bit.   

On the other hand, if I am wrong and trump prevails then yeah it will be business as usual but we will have ever increasing foreign relations issues and increasing military tensions with said foreinn relations.   And yeah, further tax cuts and lower interest rates won't solve a damn thing other than f'ing us further in the future.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 19, 2020, 09:57:58 PM

I predict some improvement in medicine.  People are mad enough about the health industry in the US that there has to be a bone or two thrown to the general populace.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 19, 2020, 10:20:52 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 19, 2020, 09:57:58 PM

I predict some improvement in medicine.  People are mad enough about the health industry in the US that there has to be a bone or two thrown to the general populace.

Hmm.. current efforts by the Trumpsters would seem to imply otherwise!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 20, 2020, 04:01:41 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 19, 2020, 10:20:52 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 19, 2020, 09:57:58 PM

I predict some improvement in medicine.  People are mad enough about the health industry in the US that there has to be a bone or two thrown to the general populace.

Hmm.. current efforts by the Trumpsters would seem to imply otherwise!

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:54:38 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 19, 2020, 09:08:31 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:11:11 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 19, 2020, 08:46:22 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 19, 2020, 08:03:09 AM

Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.

We still have about a million exposed to this market.   FOMO and greed keeps me in.  This economy will not stand on it's own anytime soon.  It's all about more stimulus (debt).  Who is gling to be the adult and take the punch bowl away?  Will the Biden administration put on big boy pants and focus on debt?  I doubt it.   So this works as long as it works.

Nobody will be focusing on the debt or deficit any time soon.   Republicans will keep taxes lower or take them even lower and fund more stimulus (money for nothing) and money shall continue to print to the sky.  If democrats take over then they will raise taxes across the board to fund about 30% of their agenda and more stimulus (money for nothing) so the other 70% will also require printing money to the sky. 

As an investor and FIRE person I have mixed feelings about each, on one hand low taxes and stimulus is good for markets so my stash will be ever larger (until its not), on the other the tax proposals from the dems will be bad for markets but if I get lower or even free expanded health care AND college for everyone (I have 3 kids 11-15) AND the tax rates only go up for really wealthy then maybe for me individually I actually do about the same from a WR view point.  Plus all that money I set aside for college is now mine again so maybe I end up with more, haha.

Crystal Ball Dream scenarios
Republicans Win - move all to equities, reps win and lower taxes even more and provides stimulus, markets get to even crazier levels.

Democrats Win - move all to bonds/cash, dems win, taxes go up, markets go down but still crazy levels bc just lost 16% of income to taxes, then buy back in.  Also get free health care and my kids get free college.   That all sounds nice.

Of course, I wouldn't be all stocks or all bonds/cash so I can't participate in the dreams.  But my portfolio is the most conservative its ever been so I am fairly hedged either way I suppose. 

BTW, I fully expect Biden to win and the house will certainly remain democrat but I am not sure (nobody is) about what will happen in the senate.   Personally I would like Biden to win and the senate to stay republican as I think some balance or discourse is good for everyone.   

Interesting analysis. I’m not placing bets on the outcome of the election. Since I don’t vote and am well known for disliking the two factions with a purple passion, I think it’s pretty safe to say I don’t have a dog in the fight.

I wouldn’t anticipate satisfactory or even competent delivery of “college for all” or expanded medical care, so I don’t think about it much.

I would expect the markets to continue as they have under a re-elected Trump. Under a Biden administration, I would expect some drop when the initial tax hikes surface. But that’ll change once the financial sector figures out it’s all show and no substance. 

I don’t see the election making a difference in my investing except at the fringes. I’m full speed ahead on DCAing into international equities. I might rotate a bit into US equities if the prices become more reasonable.

I did say it was dream scenario on either side, not what I expect.  I already said what I expected to be the political outcome, but I fully expect further shit show and no increased medical or college for all.   I do expect more taxes, but that will be pressed by the fact that our economy is still in the shitter so the ambitions to raise taxes and further stymie the economy will have to be deferred for a bit.   

On the other hand, if I am wrong and trump prevails then yeah it will be business as usual but we will have ever increasing foreign relations issues and increasing military tensions with said foreinn relations.   And yeah, further tax cuts and lower interest rates won't solve a damn thing other than f'ing us further in the future.

IMO I think it really is going to depend on Covid more than the election. There is way to much money on the sidelines waiting to be invested and so many people have been adding to that money moving to cash. The Robinhood traders and the stock splits by Apple and now Teslas and expected others will imo keep driving the Nasdaq till it doesnt BUT there are still sectors that are really beaten down. I think there will be opportunities /dips but not one of 30% or more unless Covid really hits us hard again. People want in the market. Over the next two years I would not be surprised if we get to S&P 3750-4,000.
As far as Tesla goes I agree its similar to the likes of Amazon but its run way faster.  I too live within 30 miles of one large city and 100 from Chicago. I see a couple here and there but Tesla unlike Amazon is going to be facing alot more competition within the next 5 years and some of the domestic manufactures are coming up with some pretty great cars. Having said that I would never short Tesla. Like Apple started its Cult like and he is a great innovator and I fully expect in history he will be remembered for that more than his cars but a wide range of products that come from his innovations.  Apple will own the Phone market for another 10 years, Facebook and Netflix I think are most Vulnerable , Google can do so many things . Prescription drug manufacturing to at least some degree imo will return back to the U S and where I live there are jobs everywhere. Companies have also been slowly working minimum wages up, robotics in and the housing boom is going to continue as long as interest rates and inventories are what they are. So i guess that would be my crystal ball no matter who is elected. The only difference in my view is how big the bumps are in the market climb. But again if we have a big fall breakout with Covid and still have not made more ground with medicine be it a  vaccine or helping with symptoms then it will be longer. The good hopefully out of all this is we will be better prepared for the next one and will of all learned and continue to practice smarter health/personal hygiene as a society.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on August 20, 2020, 05:45:06 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 19, 2020, 02:45:54 PM

Quote from: UnleashHell on August 19, 2020, 02:38:22 PM

why the assumption that markets go down with a democratic president?
Did you check that against whats happened historically?

I think the markets go up with stability.

Going back a hundred years I think the GDP and stock market favor the democratic terms.

By the way, glad to see you posting here.

I'd be interested to see the markets in the 2 years after an election but with the senate and house holding as well as the president. Obviously the more influence a party has the easier it is to get their policies put into law.

and thank. I've always hung here. not rightfully on my own but not far off when adding in my other half.

The dilemmas and thought processes in this group are ones I'm close to facing. theres a lot of interesting dynamics and discussions here.

Such as moving to , or near, the county you are looking at within a few years. :D 
I'm just south now so very familiar with some of the interesting parts of FL life..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 20, 2020, 05:52:42 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 19, 2020, 09:54:38 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 19, 2020, 09:08:31 PM

Interesting analysis. I’m not placing bets on the outcome of the election. Since I don’t vote and am well known for disliking the two factions with a purple passion, I think it’s pretty safe to say I don’t have a dog in the fight.

I wouldn’t anticipate satisfactory or even competent delivery of “college for all” or expanded medical care, so I don’t think about it much.

I would expect the markets to continue as they have under a re-elected Trump. Under a Biden administration, I would expect some drop when the initial tax hikes surface. But that’ll change once the financial sector figures out it’s all show and no substance. 

I don’t see the election making a difference in my investing except at the fringes. I’m full speed ahead on DCAing into international equities. I might rotate a bit into US equities if the prices become more reasonable.

I did say it was dream scenario on either side, not what I expect.  I already said what I expected to be the political outcome, but I fully expect further shit show and no increased medical or college for all.   I do expect more taxes, but that will be pressed by the fact that our economy is still in the shitter so the ambitions to raise taxes and further stymie the economy will have to be deferred for a bit.   

On the other hand, if I am wrong and trump prevails then yeah it will be business as usual but we will have ever increasing foreign relations issues and increasing military tensions with said foreinn relations.   And yeah, further tax cuts and lower interest rates won't solve a damn thing other than f'ing us further in the future.

Interesting expansion of your views, and thanks for taking the time to respond.

Since we’re amongst friends, how about we up the ante a bit and get to a couple of the really uncomfortable questions?

Question 1: are we talking about a failing state?
Question 2 : if yes, or even if no, how is/ should that impact your life/ investing strategy?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 20, 2020, 06:43:25 PM

If Trump wins the election I want to get a significant portion of our assets out of the reach of the US government, in case I need to leave the country.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 20, 2020, 07:55:01 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 20, 2020, 06:43:25 PM

If Trump wins the election I want to get a significant portion of our assets out of the reach of the US government, in case I need to leave the country.

I still can't believe we're living this nightmare.  If November delivers 4 more MAGA years we'll be joining you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 20, 2020, 08:15:57 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 20, 2020, 07:55:01 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 20, 2020, 06:43:25 PM

If Trump wins the election I want to get a significant portion of our assets out of the reach of the US government, in case I need to leave the country.

I still can't believe we're living this nightmare.  If November delivers 4 more MAGA years we'll be joining you.

We all have the power to leave and live wherever they will take us.  But is it better in other places?  I'm not well traveled.  I'm asking that now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 20, 2020, 08:27:24 PM

I’ll weigh in.
Question 1: are we talking about a failing state?

A: sadly my answer is yes. A culmination of numerous factors, an education system that has been delivering subpar results for 40 years, a toxic political duopoly, a shift in demography towards lower fertility, wealth inequality, stagnating life expectancies, a perpetual victimhood culture, etc. People tend to look at the recent and dramatic rather than the underlying causes.

Question 2 : if yes, or even if no, how is/ should that impact your life/ investing strategy?

A: I have no plans to leave the US based on which idiot is elected in November. This is my home and the politicians can perform impossible and unnatural acts on each other with my regards. Investment wise, I’m already very much into overseas equities. I plan to stay the course. At some point I would like to at least consider diversification into more US equities, but I’m in no rush. We’ll see how things develop. It’s probably premature to be thinking about more dramatic strategies.

I think where the great investments will be are in those things that make us more resilient. Skills, things that help us be more self-sufficient, disaster prep, interpersonal networks, etc. Those sorts of things tend to be a win regardless.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on August 20, 2020, 08:32:22 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 20, 2020, 08:15:57 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 20, 2020, 07:55:01 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 20, 2020, 06:43:25 PM

If Trump wins the election I want to get a significant portion of our assets out of the reach of the US government, in case I need to leave the country.

I still can't believe we're living this nightmare.  If November delivers 4 more MAGA years we'll be joining you.

We all have the power to leave and live wherever they will take us.  But is it better in other places?  I'm not well traveled.  I'm asking that now.

Each country largely emphasises what its citizens (or powerful people) have decided are important to them. As a result EVERY country is better than all other places to some of the people who live there. Of course, things like family, existing friends, and your local culture are unique to where you live, and make it better than other places in many ways. It is arrogant to think that  your own country is superior to all others. Every country has some things that are superior, and some that aren’t.

There are many lists of good countries. Depending on what that particular list emphasises, the Nordic countries usually rate at the top, along with some other Western European countries, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 20, 2020, 09:07:31 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 20, 2020, 08:15:57 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 20, 2020, 07:55:01 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 20, 2020, 06:43:25 PM

If Trump wins the election I want to get a significant portion of our assets out of the reach of the US government, in case I need to leave the country.

I still can't believe we're living this nightmare.  If November delivers 4 more MAGA years we'll be joining you.

We all have the power to leave and live wherever they will take us.  But is it better in other places?  I'm not well traveled.  I'm asking that now.

I want enough of my assets out of the American govt reach if Trump wins because we might not have a Republic in another 4 years if he stays in power.   He's already eroded a lot of the safeguards we counted on.    He caters to and draws strength from the Nazis, white supremacists, KKK, and pretty much every other form of racist or religious or misogynistic bigot we have.

I won't be planning to move out of the country, but if I have to flee, I don't want to be destitute if I do.

The far right in other dictatorships have sent out death squads to kill folks who didn't agree with them.   I'll end up on someone's kill list because I don't hide my disgust, disdain and disagreement with the alt-right folks I come across.      I have a real talent for being memorably sarcastic to people who support oppression and hate groups.    And don't kid yourself, we have those aplenty in the USA.

Arthur Jones, a known Nazi, received over 56,000 votes from Republicans in the 2018 election in just one Illinois legislative district.    56,000!   In ONE district.     By the way, that's not me, a liberal, calling Jones a Nazi.  That's the Illinois Republican party calling the fellow a Nazi.  To their credit the Illinois GOP set up a phone blitz to ask people not to vote for Jones, but he still got 25% of the votes in his district.

We've got alt-Right Q-Anon conspiracy crazy folks openly running for office.   We've got Republicans calling for a religious race war winning re-elections.   That party is out of control.

Thankfully, there are good republicans out there who recognize the danger.   People like our ex presidents who are endorsing Trump's opponent.   People like those running and supporting The Lincoln Project.

Sorry guys, it's not all just about the money.    Not all the money in the world would entice me to make my home in Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy or Franco's Spain.   

If we have to run, I want to be ready to go and not be poor when we get there. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 20, 2020, 09:26:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 20, 2020, 08:15:57 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 20, 2020, 07:55:01 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 20, 2020, 06:43:25 PM

If Trump wins the election I want to get a significant portion of our assets out of the reach of the US government, in case I need to leave the country.

I still can't believe we're living this nightmare.  If November delivers 4 more MAGA years we'll be joining you.

We all have the power to leave and live wherever they will take us.  But is it better in other places?  I'm not well traveled.  I'm asking that now.

Not really. Your US passport isn’t very useful right now due to COVID. And long term stays abroad require visas and permissions which are expensive and sometimes difficult to obtain.

As for whether it’s “better” living abroad, my personal experience is “it depends.”  What’s important to you? Is it food? Then overseas is definitely better. Is it the right to keep and bear arms? Then overseas definitely isn’t better. Economic opportunity is a mixed bag, as is taxation. So is personal freedom. Just depends on the country and what’s relatively important to you. Much as I love it, I would have a hard time living in the UK due to their speech restrictions. I wouldn’t be able to be an Aussie as voting there is mandatory (hello jail). Southern Europe would be fine except for the lack of economic opportunity, varying levels of corruption and taxes.

There is no such thing as utopia short of the grave. For me, parts of the US are about as close as I expect to find.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 20, 2020, 09:56:00 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 20, 2020, 09:26:37 PM

Not really. Your US passport isn’t very useful right now due to COVID. And long term stays abroad require visas and permissions which are expensive and sometimes difficult to obtain.

There are lots of ways to leave and enter a country if one is determined enough.   

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 20, 2020, 09:26:37 PM

There is no such thing as utopia short of the grave. For me, parts of the US are about as close as I expect to find.

Not being tortured and murdered by fascist death squads ranks pretty high on my list.

I won't be in the first wave of folks to be rounded up, I don't overrate my importance.   But they'll get to me if they take over and I'll want significant financial resources accessible to me and not the US government if that happens.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on August 20, 2020, 10:15:04 PM

I've never heard of an Aussie being put in jail for not voting - the fine is $20. Here's what actually happened to someone who didn't pay the fine, and was taken to court -

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-08/what-happens-when-you-dont-vote-in-a-federal-election/8786684

$303 (the maximum the court could give him) which he is paying in $5 installments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 21, 2020, 12:15:00 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 20, 2020, 09:56:00 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 20, 2020, 09:26:37 PM

Not really. Your US passport isn’t very useful right now due to COVID. And long term stays abroad require visas and permissions which are expensive and sometimes difficult to obtain.

There are lots of ways to leave and enter a country if one is determined enough.   

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 20, 2020, 09:26:37 PM

There is no such thing as utopia short of the grave. For me, parts of the US are about as close as I expect to find.

Not being tortured and murdered by fascist death squads ranks pretty high on my list.

Especially not the one engineered by the CIA in most of South America..

https://www.mintpressnews.com/the-school-of-the-americas-is-still-exporting-death-squads/204655/

And As Dick Cheney's position on torture is in this article.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/dick-cheney-defends-the-torture-innocents/383741/

So yeah you're right, you might actually have to leave the country to be rounded up and tortured by the US Government

Gives me all kinds of comfort!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 21, 2020, 04:29:07 AM

I really don't think I want to run.  I think I will stay and fight.  Maybe there is a second civil war to come and blood is required to keep our liberty.  I'll fight.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 21, 2020, 06:26:43 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 21, 2020, 04:29:07 AM

I really don't think I want to run.  I think I will stay and fight.  Maybe there is a second civil war to come and blood is required to keep our liberty.  I'll fight.

It does seem at times it could come to that. Like you I am not leaving. Hopefully all these clowns on both sides will get there shit together but it begins with we the people. Alot of what goes on today has gone on forever its just more sensationalized with the press and all but there sure are alot of other things that are new. I have always felt the problem is to many people don't take the time to really investigate candidates from local to national elections and just vote from the way they were brought up, the media, friends etc...

Sure would be nice if there was a way you walk up to the voting both and it spit out 1 of say 20 random 10 question tests you had to pass first before you could vote. Like who is running etc.. just simple questions. But I am sure that would break some law or never would happen but it would sure make a difference if people knew what they were voting for.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 21, 2020, 07:32:10 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 21, 2020, 04:29:07 AM

I really don't think I want to run.  I think I will stay and fight.  Maybe there is a second civil war to come and blood is required to keep our liberty.  I'll fight.

I've seen enough Civil War photos, graveyards, and heard the horrific stories of what it was like with the primitive weapons of the day.   I'm not sure you've fully considered what a modern civil war might be like. 


I'll vote & willing to protest for our democracy, but I'll pass on killing, dying, raping, and starving for it. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 21, 2020, 07:43:56 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 20, 2020, 07:55:01 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 20, 2020, 06:43:25 PM

If Trump wins the election I want to get a significant portion of our assets out of the reach of the US government, in case I need to leave the country.

I still can't believe we're living this nightmare.  If November delivers 4 more MAGA years we'll be joining you.

I’m in federal law enforcement, I seriously wonder if 4 more years will put me in a conscious objector position. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 21, 2020, 07:49:33 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 21, 2020, 07:32:10 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 21, 2020, 04:29:07 AM

I really don't think I want to run.  I think I will stay and fight.  Maybe there is a second civil war to come and blood is required to keep our liberty.  I'll fight.

I've seen enough Civil War photos, graveyards, and heard the horrific stories of what it was like with the primitive weapons of the day.   I'm not sure you've fully considered what a modern civil war might be like. 


I'll vote & willing to protest for our democracy, but I'll pass on killing, dying, raping, and starving for it.

I’ve been to places where there have been recent civil wars, Sudan, Lebanon, not a good thing to happen.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 21, 2020, 07:57:57 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 21, 2020, 07:43:56 AM

I’m in federal law enforcement, I seriously wonder if 4 more years will put me in a conscious objector position.

Depending on what agency you work for and what you've been assigned to do, it may be long past time for that.

For example, there's a special place in hell for the people mistreating immigrant kids in the camps.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 21, 2020, 08:19:32 AM

Next week is the Republican Convention.  I will be very interested in the "sell."  There are many people herein that will be tough customers.  I'll bet they don't mention the kids in cages thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 21, 2020, 08:48:18 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 21, 2020, 08:19:32 AM

Next week is the Republican Convention.  I will be very interested in the "sell."  There are many people herein that will be tough customers.  I'll bet they don't mention the kids in cages thing.

Probably not.. I mean how will that go down with all those "suburban housewives"?

Maybe they will crow about the 4 miles of extra border wall they've built perhaps?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on August 21, 2020, 09:11:31 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 20, 2020, 08:27:24 PM

I’ll weigh in.
Question 1: are we talking about a failing state?

A: sadly my answer is yes. A culmination of numerous factors, an education system that has been delivering subpar results for 40 years, a toxic political duopoly, a shift in demography towards lower fertility, wealth inequality, stagnating life expectancies, a perpetual victimhood culture, etc. People tend to look at the recent and dramatic rather than the underlying causes.

Question 2 : if yes, or even if no, how is/ should that impact your life/ investing strategy?

A: I have no plans to leave the US based on which idiot is elected in November. This is my home and the politicians can perform impossible and unnatural acts on each other with my regards. Investment wise, I’m already very much into overseas equities. I plan to stay the course. At some point I would like to at least consider diversification into more US equities, but I’m in no rush. We’ll see how things develop. It’s probably premature to be thinking about more dramatic strategies.

I think where the great investments will be are in those things that make us more resilient. Skills, things that help us be more self-sufficient, disaster prep, interpersonal networks, etc. Those sorts of things tend to be a win regardless.

Random smorgasboard of quick thoughts:

1.  I rebalanced today from what was drifting towards 60/40 US vs. World to 50/50 and upped bonds from about 8% to closer to 12%.  Just a slight course correction, but since we are back at all time highs despite the economy being in shambles, pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered and all that.

2.  I don't know if the USA is becoming a "failed state."  I think we are definitely in decline.  But things have looked rough at various points in history (was just reading about a miner's riot in WV that turned basically into a real gun battle between 6,000 miners and 2,000 mercenaries with federal troops monitoring, etc., let's not even get into historical instabilities in Europe).  So I'm hoping this is mostly sound and fury but I don't have a crystal ball. 

3.  My family is from Eastern Europe and fled.  Going to second the idea that war is really awful and that I would advise people against becoming keyboard warriors and putting fuel on the fire.  Also going to note that the deaths from left-wing totalitarianism were many multiples of the deaths from right-wing totalitarianism in the 20th century.  And plenty of mass murders of religious people by non-religious people, btw.  Solzhenitsyn should really be required reading to graduate from high school.  Anyways, keep some perspective.  Classical liberal democracy where you argue with your opponents with words instead of try to throw them in jail or kill them is pretty cool!  It was a pretty great development even if it seems messy at times.  Let's try to keep it up.

4.  I have an expired European passport (but none for my family) and a handgun permit but no gun.  So I dunno.  I am definitely a believer that planning is prudent but I haven't prioritized it yet, which yeah is definitely running a risk because if there's instability sometimes it comes on real quick.  Anything that happens in the next year I'm just going to be waiting it out in my house trying to keep the kids safe.  If it looks like endemic issues then I might start to put plans in motion to have alternative options. 

5.  These divisions are really a failure of the elites.  Why?  Unpopular opinion, most people have a... limited understanding of things.  In a health society, the elite try to manage the passions of the mob and have more elevated conversations amongst themselves, and also work to create a system in which a large number of people are reasonably happy enough to buy into the system.  U.S. elites have seem to failed on a large number of fronts, and so now political momentum and increasingly policy is being driven by the mob.  This point could really be a whole book, honestly. 

6.  I'd rather meet my maker than violate my conscience (in major ways, of course).  So at some point I'm just going to live my life the best I can and leave my fate as beyond my pay grade.  The world has always been a fallen place and human nature has always been what it is. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 21, 2020, 09:28:45 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 21, 2020, 07:57:57 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 21, 2020, 07:43:56 AM

I’m in federal law enforcement, I seriously wonder if 4 more years will put me in a conscious objector position.

Depending on what agency you work for and what you've been assigned to do, it may be long past time for that.

For example, there's a special place in hell for the people mistreating immigrant kids in the camps.

So far my agency hasn’t had issues, but we have had problems in the past, (long ago and in the past 20 years since I’ve been on the job) that give us the ability to say, um that’s not legal (read I know people personally named in lawsuits about that).

ETA:  and by not legal I mean the law we were working under was determined to not be constitutional.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 21, 2020, 09:31:01 AM

Another daily melt up....Tesla and Apple crazy! among others

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 21, 2020, 09:40:47 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 20, 2020, 08:27:24 PM

I’ll weigh in.
Question 1: are we talking about a failing state?

A: sadly my answer is yes. A culmination of numerous factors, an education system that has been delivering subpar results for 40 years, a toxic political duopoly, a shift in demography towards lower fertility, wealth inequality, stagnating life expectancies, a perpetual victimhood culture, etc. People tend to look at the recent and dramatic rather than the underlying causes.

Question 2 : if yes, or even if no, how is/ should that impact your life/ investing strategy?

A: I have no plans to leave the US based on which idiot is elected in November. This is my home and the politicians can perform impossible and unnatural acts on each other with my regards. Investment wise, I’m already very much into overseas equities. I plan to stay the course. At some point I would like to at least consider diversification into more US equities, but I’m in no rush. We’ll see how things develop. It’s probably premature to be thinking about more dramatic strategies.

I think where the great investments will be are in those things that make us more resilient. Skills, things that help us be more self-sufficient, disaster prep, interpersonal networks, etc. Those sorts of things tend to be a win regardless.

Q1 - Simply, NO we are talking about a failed state.  I hate politics and think most involved are self interested wastes of space that love to hear themselves talk.   But we decidedly still have a functioning government.  Sure its dysfunctional at times (like now) but there are still multiple branches that are required for participation with regular election cycles that permit changes (mostly dictated by swing states though). 

Q2 - it doesn't change my strategy in the long term, maybe in the short term a bit.  As I said before I have a conservative AA right now that was based on SOR (rising equity glide path), current valuations (took some chips off the table), and possible near term volatility (election, covid resurgence or continued economic impact).   AA choice could be good or bad but its right for me as I sleep well with it. I also no its right bc when covid hit I wasn't stressed (but wasn't happy about). 

Other countries are no better or worse, so some are better or worse. Who knows.  Europe has been no panacea, perpetually economically stagnant but some places have good quality of life.    Do you want to live in China or India, both of which economically are on the curve where the US was 100 years ago but have not so great political structures (as I say moderately while chuckling).   I am sure I could come up with a few places that would seem to be nice to cast away and live out the rest of my life but like others said then there is the family, friends, culture (even if you would be willing to go and assimilate, they may not want you or accept you). 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 21, 2020, 10:30:55 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 21, 2020, 09:31:01 AM

Another daily melt up....Tesla and Apple crazy! among others

Broken record alert!!!!

I don't get it!   Apple's revenues and income haven't really grown in three years - sure it may have been a but undervalued three years ago and sure they had a banner quarter (cough, cough.....stay at home, nowhere else to spend money,  stimulus payments to spend....cough cough)

But TSLA,  my gosh.   How many cars (and future batteries) would they have to justify the current market cap (P/E of 1,056). Even if you used market cap/Gross Profit it would be 75 GP/PE or Market Cap / Operating Income would be 314 for TTM.   

Heck if you used 12/31/2019 annualized (their best quarter on record) you would have a Market Cap /Gross Profit of 69 and Market Cap /Operating Income of 338.  These are ridiculous numbers for any company let alone an auto company, yeah I said auto.  Shit, even if you backed out all of R&D it results in a P/E of 212, of course then there would be no future to pay a premium for. 

 They sell about 90k per quarter worldwide over last 12 months (impacted by covid sure), peak quarter was 112k 12/31/2019.   

For TTM 6/30/2020, They made $948 of net income per car (includes R&D expense) so to get to a more reasonable 30 P/E (ha, more reasonable) they would have to sell about 24 million cars (hmmmmm).   


Ok ok, so they have grown and eliminated R&D bc now they are in stable blue chip mode - assuming adding back R&D gets you profit of $4250 per car.   At 30 P/E that means selling about
5.3 million cars, ok a much more reasonable number at about 7% of global annual auto sales.  And sure there will be trucks and batteries. 

I couldn't make the case before and certainly can't now.   I guess if I had I would be having this discussion in the $4M+ thread (lol).   But then I would also have to be doing individual stocks.  Crap I really f'ed myself with this whole rational, balanced, and index approach.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on August 21, 2020, 10:41:54 AM

This analysis also assumes no more price growth until they get that 7% share.  If price growth continues, then it's a moving target.

I dunno, I would continue playing the long game and keep the ship steady.  There's the boring boglehead in me. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 21, 2020, 11:34:56 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on August 21, 2020, 10:41:54 AM

This analysis also assumes no more price growth until they get that 7% share.  If price growth continues, then it's a moving target.

I dunno, I would continue playing the long game and keep the ship steady.  There's the boring boglehead in me.

I was just joking about f'ing myself.  I will keep to my ways, its worked for me thus far.   

But to think, a year or so ago there was more discussion of whether or not TSLA would survive the year, let alone the future, due to Musk's tweeting and looming debt that nobody thought they could refinance, and a big cash flow needs that they didn't have any way to fund.    Oh what a year makes!

If TSLA stock isn't a bubble then I don't know what is.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 21, 2020, 03:28:55 PM

Our Apple stock is over 50K on a 10K investment.  Wondering how much higher it blows up before it deflates.  I want a Cybertruck in the future and that stock can buy it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 21, 2020, 03:29:52 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on August 21, 2020, 09:11:31 AM

- SNIP -

2.  I don't know if the USA is becoming a "failed state."  I think we are definitely in decline.  But things have looked rough at various points in history (was just reading about a miner's riot in WV that turned basically into a real gun battle between 6,000 miners and 2,000 mercenaries with federal troops monitoring, etc., let's not even get into historical instabilities in Europe).  So I'm hoping this is mostly sound and fury but I don't have a crystal ball. 

-SNIP-

Battle of Blair Mountain.  It kinda makes some proud to be rednecks.  The spirit of those miners is still out there.  The US will pull out of the current muck and mire.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 21, 2020, 06:06:25 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 21, 2020, 03:29:52 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on August 21, 2020, 09:11:31 AM

- SNIP -

2.  I don't know if the USA is becoming a "failed state."  I think we are definitely in decline.  But things have looked rough at various points in history (was just reading about a miner's riot in WV that turned basically into a real gun battle between 6,000 miners and 2,000 mercenaries with federal troops monitoring, etc., let's not even get into historical instabilities in Europe).  So I'm hoping this is mostly sound and fury but I don't have a crystal ball. 

-SNIP-

Battle of Blair Mountain.  It kinda makes some proud to be rednecks.  The spirit of those miners is still out there.  The US will pull out of the current muck and mire.

Except a lot of the rednecks are on the side of the ultra-rich now -- and they don't even understand that they are.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 21, 2020, 08:20:55 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 21, 2020, 06:06:25 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 21, 2020, 03:29:52 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on August 21, 2020, 09:11:31 AM

- SNIP -

2.  I don't know if the USA is becoming a "failed state."  I think we are definitely in decline.  But things have looked rough at various points in history (was just reading about a miner's riot in WV that turned basically into a real gun battle between 6,000 miners and 2,000 mercenaries with federal troops monitoring, etc., let's not even get into historical instabilities in Europe).  So I'm hoping this is mostly sound and fury but I don't have a crystal ball. 

-SNIP-

Battle of Blair Mountain.  It kinda makes some proud to be rednecks.  The spirit of those miners is still out there.  The US will pull out of the current muck and mire.

Except a lot of the rednecks are on the side of the ultra-rich now -- and they don't even understand that they are.

Many extremely poor people fought to keep slavery that could never afford slaves.  The same ignorance is alive and well today. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 22, 2020, 05:18:52 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on August 21, 2020, 10:41:54 AM

This analysis also assumes no more price growth until they get that 7% share.  If price growth continues, then it's a moving target.

I dunno, I would continue playing the long game and keep the ship steady.  There's the boring boglehead in me. 

Quote from: Bateaux on August 21, 2020, 03:28:55 PM

Our Apple stock is over 50K on a 10K investment.  Wondering how much higher it blows up before it deflates.  I want a Cybertruck in the future and that stock can buy it.

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 21, 2020, 10:30:55 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 21, 2020, 09:31:01 AM

Another daily melt up....Tesla and Apple crazy! among others

Broken record alert!!!!

I don't get it!   Apple's revenues and income haven't really grown in three years - sure it may have been a but undervalued three years ago and sure they had a banner quarter (cough, cough.....stay at home, nowhere else to spend money,  stimulus payments to spend....cough cough)

But TSLA,  my gosh.   How many cars (and future batteries) would they have to justify the current market cap (P/E of 1,056). Even if you used market cap/Gross Profit it would be 75 GP/PE or Market Cap / Operating Income would be 314 for TTM.   

Heck if you used 12/31/2019 annualized (their best quarter on record) you would have a Market Cap /Gross Profit of 69 and Market Cap /Operating Income of 338.  These are ridiculous numbers for any company let alone an auto company, yeah I said auto.  Shit, even if you backed out all of R&D it results in a P/E of 212, of course then there would be no future to pay a premium for. 

 They sell about 90k per quarter worldwide over last 12 months (impacted by covid sure), peak quarter was 112k 12/31/2019.   

For TTM 6/30/2020, They made $948 of net income per car (includes R&D expense) so to get to a more reasonable 30 P/E (ha, more reasonable) they would have to sell about 24 million cars (hmmmmm).   


Ok ok, so they have grown and eliminated R&D bc now they are in stable blue chip mode - assuming adding back R&D gets you profit of $4250 per car.   At 30 P/E that means selling about
5.3 million cars, ok a much more reasonable number at about 7% of global annual auto sales.  And sure there will be trucks and batteries. 

I couldn't make the case before and certainly can't now.   I guess if I had I would be having this discussion in the $4M+ thread (lol).   But then I would also have to be doing individual stocks.  Crap I really f'ed myself with this whole rational, balanced, and index approach.

TSLA up 40% in one month and 25% up the last week. Both Apple and Tsla finally seemed to be stalling until they announced there stock split and even though we know its not worth more just more shares the soared seemingly because alot more people feel the stock is going to be affordable for more people to buy. As is the case the Bigger the Bubble the bigger the Burst!

Bateaux, I am sure you have a trailing stop in!?!?! but yea its been great investment 5-1 for ya

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 22, 2020, 08:38:12 AM

When the bubble bursts, where are all those trillions created by the powers at be to go?  Will they help finance infrastructure projects in Southeast Asia?  Will they flood to the drug lords in Central and South America? Will they be hidden under thousands of mattresses in middle America?  This stuff is hard to really understand.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 22, 2020, 11:45:49 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 22, 2020, 08:38:12 AM

When the bubble bursts, where are all those trillions created by the powers at be to go?  Will they help finance infrastructure projects in Southeast Asia?  Will they flood to the drug lords in Central and South America? Will they be hidden under thousands of mattresses in middle America?  This stuff is hard to really understand.

If the past is any guide, the elites and financiers will do just fine. If I had to guess, the 401(k) holders will get left holding the bag. And holders of the currency. And owners of bonds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 23, 2020, 05:38:04 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 22, 2020, 08:38:12 AM

When the bubble bursts, where are all those trillions created by the powers at be to go?  Will they help finance infrastructure projects in Southeast Asia?  Will they flood to the drug lords in Central and South America? Will they be hidden under thousands of mattresses in middle America?  This stuff is hard to really understand.

I thought the top 10 percent households hold like 87 percent of all US stocks. Can’t imagine middle America having money to stuff under a mattress.

Anyone watch Selling Sunset on Netflix?  Makes me feel very poor. The ultra rich buying multi-million dollar homes in cash.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on August 23, 2020, 07:40:46 AM

I think we are in the middle of a chasm that is splitting.  Those of us in this cohort have a resilience that is insulated by our finances.   We are the rich that are getting richer, even if we aren't the ultra rich, we are not losing our minimum wage job with a few kids that now need an at home education and care.  My heart goes out to the people who have limited options.

My politics are moderate, always in the middle, which usually means I don't like anybody.  I find the outspoken opposition to Trump within the Republican Party to be incredibly alarming.  The Lincoln Project and this group of ex-National Security advisors are Republicans and supporting Biden.   Supporting him publicly and imploring other Republicans to do the same.  When this many high ups take a public stand opposing their elected party president, red alert bells sound off in my mind.

https://www.defendingdemocracytogether.org/national-security/
https://lincolnproject.us/news/the-urgency-of-defeating-trump-falls-to-all-of-us/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 23, 2020, 08:06:56 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on August 23, 2020, 07:40:46 AM

I think we are in the middle of a chasm that is splitting.  Those of us in this cohort have a resilience that is insulated by our finances.   We are the rich that are getting richer, even if we aren't the ultra rich, we are not losing our minimum wage job with a few kids that now need an at home education and care.  My heart goes out to the people who have limited options.

My politics are moderate, always in the middle, which usually means I don't like anybody.  I find the outspoken opposition to Trump within the Republican Party to be incredibly alarming.  The Lincoln Project and this group of ex-National Security advisors are Republicans and supporting Biden.   Supporting him publicly and imploring other Republicans to do the same.  When this many high ups take a public stand opposing their elected party president, red alert bells sound off in my mind.

https://www.defendingdemocracytogether.org/national-security/
https://lincolnproject.us/news/the-urgency-of-defeating-trump-falls-to-all-of-us/

You should find it incredibly alarming.    Trump is bat-shit crazy and evil to boot.   

And at least 25% of the electorate can't see that. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on August 23, 2020, 10:23:37 AM

Even his sister (a former federal judge) is now saying he has no principles, cheated on the SAT, and is damaged.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 23, 2020, 04:25:54 PM

Well, a huge mea culpa to y’all. I hadn’t intended to hijack the thread into a discussion of partisan politics. Gad, I’d sooner eat a cooked slug then go down that road. In any case my profuse apologies.

A question. I’m looking to do “passive” income soon or during my retirement but not-retirement. Possibly getting into rental properties. I’m listening to the standard fare such as bigger pockets which reminds me of a lot of the FI stuff out there; very positive and light on the reality checks. For those of you who took the real estate route, what has been your experience? Any books you would recommend?  Would I be too late to the game?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on August 23, 2020, 06:27:08 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 21, 2020, 03:29:52 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on August 21, 2020, 09:11:31 AM

- SNIP -

2.  I don't know if the USA is becoming a "failed state."  I think we are definitely in decline.  But things have looked rough at various points in history (was just reading about a miner's riot in WV that turned basically into a real gun battle between 6,000 miners and 2,000 mercenaries with federal troops monitoring, etc., let's not even get into historical instabilities in Europe).  So I'm hoping this is mostly sound and fury but I don't have a crystal ball. 

-SNIP-

Battle of Blair Mountain.  It kinda makes some proud to be rednecks.  The spirit of those miners is still out there.  The US will pull out of the current muck and mire.

Interestingly, even though my parents are immigrants from Europe, we do have some historical roots in the USA.  One of my great-grandparents came over to work the mines and was going to bring his family but died in a cave-in before he had enough money saved.  Somewhere in PA, location unknown.  One of the countless victims of the industrial revolution.

That was totally unrelated to the point of my post.  I was just musing on how there were times in the past in the USA where things seemed really bad and we got through it.  Hopefully one day these last few years will just be a footnote in a history book. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 23, 2020, 06:33:56 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 23, 2020, 04:25:54 PM

Well, a huge mea culpa to y’all. I hadn’t intended to hijack the thread into a discussion of partisan politics. Gad, I’d sooner eat a cooked slug then go down that road. In any case my profuse apologies.

A question. I’m looking to do “passive” income soon or during my retirement but not-retirement. Possibly getting into rental properties. I’m listening to the standard fare such as bigger pockets which reminds me of a lot of the FI stuff out there; very positive and light on the reality checks. For those of you who took the real estate route, what has been your experience? Any books you would recommend?  Would I be too late to the game?

I really like Gallinelli's book on Cash Flow and other Measures.    Real estate is a numbers game and he teaches how to do the numbers.

After that, your public library probably has a ton of books on real estate investment.   Read a bunch.

Once covid allows meetings again, look for  REIA groups in your area.  (Real Estate Investment Association)   Lots of good knowledge and contacts to be made.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 23, 2020, 07:49:25 PM

We are wealthy even if we don't feel that way.  This morning I filled three of our four vehicles with gasoline.  I also bought an additional 10 gallons to supplement the 25 gallons I already had stored.  We do have hurricanes inbound to the Louisiana coast so I plan to run our three generators when we lose power.  The boat is also gassed and ready for emergency evacuation.  If we lose the Louisiana house, we have a spare house high and dry in Florida.  Even if we lose all our vehicles to the storm, if we make it to dry land we can purchase at least one new vehicle with cash while waiting for the insurance to settle.  The Florida house is fully furnished and luxury.  We have food and clothing ready for us there.  It's almost unfair.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 23, 2020, 07:57:23 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 23, 2020, 04:25:54 PM

Well, a huge mea culpa to y’all. I hadn’t intended to hijack the thread into a discussion of partisan politics. Gad, I’d sooner eat a cooked slug then go down that road. In any case my profuse apologies.

A question. I’m looking to do “passive” income soon or during my retirement but not-retirement. Possibly getting into rental properties. I’m listening to the standard fare such as bigger pockets which reminds me of a lot of the FI stuff out there; very positive and light on the reality checks. For those of you who took the real estate route, what has been your experience? Any books you would recommend?  Would I be too late to the game?

Most of my FIRE wealth is real estate related. It got me there, but I am positive it was not the most expedient path. I did it because I love fixing up houses, and I understand Real Estate better than stock derivatives (or whatever). I wouldn't change a thing, but I wouldn't advise others to follow my path. There are exceptions. arebelspy comes to mind, because he saw an opportunity and jumped on it. IIRC, most of his properties were purchased during the Great Recession.

Some people will recommend REITs as an easier path, but I have grave concerns about big chunks of that market. The retail sector is getting killed by Amazon et al, and the pandemic. It may never rebound. Commercial RE, particularly office space, is going to shift dramatically now that WFH has been proven to be effective and popular. Employers have realized that WFH costs them a lot less money, and employees are loving the lack of commute, among other things.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 23, 2020, 07:58:22 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 23, 2020, 07:49:25 PM

We are wealthy even if we don't feel that way.  This morning I filled three of our four vehicles with gasoline.  I also bought an additional 10 gallons to supplement the 25 gallons I already had stored.  We do have hurricanes inbound to the Louisiana coast so I plan to run our three generators when we lose power.  The boat is also gassed and ready for emergency evacuation.  If we lose the Louisiana house, we have a spare house high and dry in Florida.  Even if we lose all our vehicles to the storm, if we make it to dry land we can purchase at least one new vehicle with cash while waiting for the insurance to settle.  The Florida house is fully furnished and luxury.  We have food and clothing ready for us there.  It's almost unfair.

Fortune favors the prepared. Dude, you're killin' it!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 23, 2020, 08:01:45 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 23, 2020, 06:33:56 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 23, 2020, 04:25:54 PM

Well, a huge mea culpa to y’all. I hadn’t intended to hijack the thread into a discussion of partisan politics. Gad, I’d sooner eat a cooked slug then go down that road. In any case my profuse apologies.

A question. I’m looking to do “passive” income soon or during my retirement but not-retirement. Possibly getting into rental properties. I’m listening to the standard fare such as bigger pockets which reminds me of a lot of the FI stuff out there; very positive and light on the reality checks. For those of you who took the real estate route, what has been your experience? Any books you would recommend?  Would I be too late to the game?

I really like Gallinelli's book on Cash Flow and other Measures.    Real estate is a numbers game and he teaches how to do the numbers.

After that, your public library probably has a ton of books on real estate investment.   Read a bunch.

Once covid allows meetings again, look for  REIA groups in your area.  (Real Estate Investment Association)   Lots of good knowledge and contacts to be made.

Thanks for the tip, @SwordGuy! The book is on its way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 23, 2020, 08:26:53 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 23, 2020, 07:57:23 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 23, 2020, 04:25:54 PM

Well, a huge mea culpa to y’all. I hadn’t intended to hijack the thread into a discussion of partisan politics. Gad, I’d sooner eat a cooked slug then go down that road. In any case my profuse apologies.

A question. I’m looking to do “passive” income soon or during my retirement but not-retirement. Possibly getting into rental properties. I’m listening to the standard fare such as bigger pockets which reminds me of a lot of the FI stuff out there; very positive and light on the reality checks. For those of you who took the real estate route, what has been your experience? Any books you would recommend?  Would I be too late to the game?

Most of my FIRE wealth is real estate related. It got me there, but I am positive it was not the most expedient path. I did it because I love fixing up houses, and I understand Real Estate better than stock derivatives (or whatever). I wouldn't change a thing, but I wouldn't advise others to follow my path. There are exceptions. arebelspy comes to mind, because he saw an opportunity and jumped on it. IIRC, most of his properties were purchased during the Great Recession.

Some people will recommend REITs as an easier path, but I have grave concerns about big chunks of that market. The retail sector is getting killed by Amazon et al, and the pandemic. It may never rebound. Commercial RE, particularly office space, is going to shift dramatically now that WFH has been proven to be effective and popular. Employers have realized that WFH costs them a lot less money, and employees are loving the lack of commute, among other things.

Thanks @Dicey. There is lots of fluff and blowing of hot air out there in the real estate space. I’m very curious as to why you wouldn’t advise others to follow in your footsteps, if you’re willing to tell. I appreciate ground truth.

And.commercial doesn’t interest me right now. Waaaaay too much retail and office space out there. Maybe once the shakeout starts in earnest there’ll be some deals.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 23, 2020, 08:55:03 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 23, 2020, 08:26:53 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 23, 2020, 07:57:23 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 23, 2020, 04:25:54 PM

Well, a huge mea culpa to y’all. I hadn’t intended to hijack the thread into a discussion of partisan politics. Gad, I’d sooner eat a cooked slug then go down that road. In any case my profuse apologies.

A question. I’m looking to do “passive” income soon or during my retirement but not-retirement. Possibly getting into rental properties. I’m listening to the standard fare such as bigger pockets which reminds me of a lot of the FI stuff out there; very positive and light on the reality checks. For those of you who took the real estate route, what has been your experience? Any books you would recommend?  Would I be too late to the game?

Most of my FIRE wealth is real estate related. It got me there, but I am positive it was not the most expedient path. I did it because I love fixing up houses, and I understand Real Estate better than stock derivatives (or whatever). I wouldn't change a thing, but I wouldn't advise others to follow my path. There are exceptions. arebelspy comes to mind, because he saw an opportunity and jumped on it. IIRC, most of his properties were purchased during the Great Recession.

Some people will recommend REITs as an easier path, but I have grave concerns about big chunks of that market. The retail sector is getting killed by Amazon et al, and the pandemic. It may never rebound. Commercial RE, particularly office space, is going to shift dramatically now that WFH has been proven to be effective and popular. Employers have realized that WFH costs them a lot less money, and employees are loving the lack of commute, among other things.

Thanks @Dicey. There is lots of fluff and blowing of hot air out there in the real estate space. I’m very curious as to why you wouldn’t advise others to follow in your footsteps, if you’re willing to tell. I appreciate ground truth.

Dude, I totally thought I did! RE is a lot more work than equities are. Your stock portfolio will never make the toilet overflow, lol!

Example: You throw money into the stock market. It goes up, it goes down, it goes all around. All you have to do is hold on and history has proven you'll come out on top in the long run, without lifting a finger again.

Or: You buy a rental. The market tanks, a pandemic hits, your tenants can't pay the rent and you can't evict them. There is a heat wave, the air conditioning breaks beyond repair and you're paying through the nose for a whole new A/C system to the only company who will answer their damn phone. Then the water heater goes, or a water line springs a leak, or any number of expensive things happen. But guess what? The bank still wants their payment every month, the taxes are still due, and OMG, they're trying to cancel your damn insurance. When you're a landlord, rent is not guaranteed, but continuing expenses that always go up most certainly are.

Oh, did I mention [lowercase] fires? No I did not, even though huge fires are raging out of control in my state and the air quality makes China look environmentally friendly. Your whole property could burn to the ground, and those damn payments would still be due. It sounds exaggerated, but every long-time LL could tell a similar tale that's 100% true.

If that doesn't help, ask me anything you want to know.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on August 23, 2020, 08:58:50 PM

I think a well thought out investment of a SFH or duplex/ 2 house on a lot that is within a 30 minute drive of your house is a great idea.   You can do a lot of research yourself-- what do those houses sell for?  What area is "hot"?  How much are rents?   A sweet little turn key house will always command a premium purchase price, but fixer uppers are usually where the outsized profits and headaches lie.    There's a bizillion stories on Bigger Pockets of the successes and failures.  There's plenty of each to go around. 

We did an analysis 5 or so pages back in this thread on RE as a wealth building and FI strategy.  It was about a week or two ago.   The profits can be a beautiful thing.  Just for kicks, I did some ROI calculations.  I used this "rental property ROI calculator"  https://sparkrental.com/rental-property-roi-calculator/

 Not counting equity or appreciation, just the monthly return of the rental incomes minus all expenses, my worst purchase gets about a 5% return a year after expenses,  and my best ones are north of 15%.   The average is about 7.5%.  I factor repair costs, vacancies, rehab costs if there were any, etc. 

 If I add in the equity appreciation, it would be when I sell.   Most of them have doubled in value. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 23, 2020, 09:36:15 PM

We bought properties and renovated them.

The renovation was a lot of work and took a fair bit of our time.   But that's just one strategy that we happened to use, it's possible to purchase rent-ready properties also.

Then we hired a property management to deal with the routine work on those properties.   I spend no more than 4 hours a year (total) on four properties.   It just doesn't have to be this horrible, onerous amount of work.   At about $5,000 an hour I can handle 4 hours (tops) of work.  PS - that 4 hours includes a house that was trashed by tenants.   PPS - Insurance covered those trashing costs.

As for expensive stuff like hvacs roofs, etc., you build the cost to replace them into the rent.  (That's one thing that Gallinelli's book teaches how to do.)   Same thing for insurance, bad tenants, no tenants, etc.    You set those funds aside into "sinking funds".

You'll need reserves for big stuff that breaks because it does take time to build up those sinking fund balances.

Now, we invest in low property tax areas and we're not buying super expensive properties.   So our taxes and insurance aren't all that high.   Other markets are different, of course.

Also, because we're buying inexpensive properties, we paid cash instead of getting mortgages.   So a typical property would cost us less than $2500 a year to sit empty with the utilities off.   One rented property covers a lot of houses at that cost point.

It's also possible to buy expensive properties and have really high mortgages.   Not our cup of tea but it can be a good long-term wealth building approach.  More risk but certainly more reward if it works out.    We had a short timeframe to FIRE and we're older so we didn't need to take on the additional risk.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 24, 2020, 08:13:52 AM

Monday Morsel -Interesting from Barrons

The market Cap for Tsla is now at 1M $ per car produced. The market Cap for GM is 10k. Yowzy. TSlA for the first time in forever as of this post in the red this morning despite the market being up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 24, 2020, 11:25:21 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 23, 2020, 09:36:15 PM

We bought properties and renovated them.

The renovation was a lot of work and took a fair bit of our time.   But that's just one strategy that we happened to use, it's possible to purchase rent-ready properties also.

Then we hired a property management to deal with the routine work on those properties.   I spend no more than 4 hours a year (total) on four properties.   It just doesn't have to be this horrible, onerous amount of work.   At about $5,000 an hour I can handle 4 hours (tops) of work.  PS - that 4 hours includes a house that was trashed by tenants.   PPS - Insurance covered those trashing costs.

As for expensive stuff like hvacs roofs, etc., you build the cost to replace them into the rent.  (That's one thing that Gallinelli's book teaches how to do.)   Same thing for insurance, bad tenants, no tenants, etc.    You set those funds aside into "sinking funds".

You'll need reserves for big stuff that breaks because it does take time to build up those sinking fund balances.

Now, we invest in low property tax areas and we're not buying super expensive properties.   So our taxes and insurance aren't all that high.   Other markets are different, of course.

Also, because we're buying inexpensive properties, we paid cash instead of getting mortgages.   So a typical property would cost us less than $2500 a year to sit empty with the utilities off.   One rented property covers a lot of houses at that cost point.

It's also possible to buy expensive properties and have really high mortgages.   Not our cup of tea but it can be a good long-term wealth building approach.  More risk but certainly more reward if it works out.    We had a short timeframe to FIRE and we're older so we didn't need to take on the additional risk.

Thanks for the insights. So you purchased properties for cash? Or did you finance?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 24, 2020, 12:07:03 PM

I swear the markets are now officially in "stupid territory"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on August 24, 2020, 12:15:45 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 24, 2020, 12:07:03 PM

I swear the markets are now officially in "stupid territory"

I just took another $20k out of VTSAX and put it in bonds because of your comment.  I was like "hmmm, millionaire mustachians also think things are frothy, ok then."

Mostly this is just rebalancing but it's a good reminder, in the past I've gotten real lax about rebalancing on the way up because who wants to start winding down before the party's done?  But I like to hold some bonds even at crap rates, not for their return but as basically round #2 of the emergency fund (a source for drawdowns during a long emergency) and some firepower for if things really tank. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: achvfi on August 24, 2020, 12:28:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 24, 2020, 12:07:03 PM

I swear the markets are now officially in "stupid territory"

I hear similar assertions around this forum regularly, especially with folks with large investments in the market. But as far as I notice market has been hovering in same range since Jan 2018. Aside from pandemic effects, Not very impressive.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 24, 2020, 12:32:38 PM

Quote from: achvfi on August 24, 2020, 12:28:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 24, 2020, 12:07:03 PM

I swear the markets are now officially in "stupid territory"

I hear similar assertions around this forum regularly, especially with folks with large investments in the market. But as far as I notice market has been hovering in same range since Jan 2018. Aside from pandemic effects, Not very impressive.

Oh, heck, I've thought the market was frothy and unsustainable since about 2012...

Our stocks are for long term growth so I just don't worry about it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 24, 2020, 12:38:27 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 24, 2020, 11:25:21 AM

Thanks for the insights. So you purchased properties for cash? Or did you finance?

We have financed our own personal home.   But we bought our investment properties for cash. 
Recognize that the purchase price of our four rental properties were:   $38.4k,  $37k, $33k, and $55.4k.

Renovation costs were in the $7k to $13k range apiece. 

Sale value of the property usually went up about $25k to $30k above purchase and renovation cost added together.

So it's not like we were spending $100k to $300k apiece!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 24, 2020, 01:22:45 PM

Because I should be doing something else, I stopped to look up our stats. These are all in the same fancy pants retirement community in a much lower COLA than where we actually live. That said, it's still California. Just for grins, I pulled the tax info. If I pull the HOA numbers, it will make me cry.

Property #1 $301k in 2003. Taxes $4,916
Property #2 $259k in 2015. Taxes $3,663
Property #3 $335k in 2016. Taxes $4,633

We put 25% down on each of them and have 30 year fixed rate mortgages.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 24, 2020, 01:28:50 PM

Property taxes for our four investment properties are:
$1,223
$1,226
$1,323
$885

That last one is actually the most expensive house, but it's in the county and so doesn't have city taxes added in.  Otherwise it would be comparable to the others.

No HOAs.

Insurance averages about $1200 each a year.   

Of course, rents are also much lower than in HCOL areas.   But it does make it easier for middle class folks to get into real estate investing when the property is that inexpensive.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 24, 2020, 01:49:59 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 24, 2020, 12:07:03 PM

I swear the markets are now officially in "stupid territory"

and then some!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on August 24, 2020, 02:58:58 PM

Quote from: achvfi on August 24, 2020, 12:28:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 24, 2020, 12:07:03 PM

I swear the markets are now officially in "stupid territory"

I hear similar assertions around this forum regularly, especially with folks with large investments in the market. But as far as I notice market has been hovering in same range since Jan 2018. Aside from pandemic effects, Not very impressive.

We must be looking at different markets.

The S&P 500 finished January 2018 at an adjusted close of 2822.43.  Dividing today's close of 3431.28 by that number shows a market return of 21.5%.  Dividing by the January 2, 2018 close shows a market return of 27.3%.

Source:  https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5EGSPC/history?period1=1514678400&period2=1517356800&interval=1d&filter=history&frequency=1d

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: honeyfill on August 24, 2020, 03:08:25 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on August 24, 2020, 12:15:45 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 24, 2020, 12:07:03 PM

I swear the markets are now officially in "stupid territory"

I just took another $20k out of VTSAX and put it in bonds because of your comment.  I was like "hmmm, millionaire mustachians also think things are frothy, ok then."

 

Mostly this is just rebalancing but it's a good reminder, in the past I've gotten real lax about rebalancing on the way up because who wants to start winding down before the party's done?  But I like to hold some bonds even at crap rates, not for their return but as basically round #2 of the emergency fund (a source for drawdowns during a long emergency) and some firepower for if things really tank.

I confess. I also sold 10k out of VFIAX and VEXAX put it in cash today.  I needed cash anyway but I planned to do 5k on 9/1 and 5k on 10/1.  I am actually more worried now than I was in March.  March was pretty obviously panic selling because of Covid overreaction but I get the feeling we are in a panic buying bubble. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 24, 2020, 03:29:02 PM

I was told about the crash of 1929.  The smart rich people knew enough to get out.  I was told about 1987.  The smart rich people knew enough to get out.  I was told about 2008.  The smart rich people knew enough to get out.  (Some of those 2008 folks were more than a little crooked.)

Now I am reading about smart rich people selling out in previous posts.   Hmmmmmmmm.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: achvfi on August 24, 2020, 04:11:54 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 24, 2020, 02:58:58 PM

Quote from: achvfi on August 24, 2020, 12:28:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 24, 2020, 12:07:03 PM

I swear the markets are now officially in "stupid territory"

I hear similar assertions around this forum regularly, especially with folks with large investments in the market. But as far as I notice market has been hovering in same range since Jan 2018. Aside from pandemic effects, Not very impressive.

We must be looking at different markets.

The S&P 500 finished January 2018 at an adjusted close of 2822.43.  Dividing today's close of 3431.28 by that number shows a market return of 21.5%.  Dividing by the January 2, 2018 close shows a market return of 27.3%.

Source:  https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5EGSPC/history?period1=1514678400&period2=1517356800&interval=1d&filter=history&frequency=1d

Yes, that is my point, its been average and until recently well below average performance for S&P or US Total stock. For the most part its been flat over time. Its not some rip roaring crazy stupid performance. Its about time we see some returns and I hope it continues.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 24, 2020, 04:13:17 PM

Hmm, stocks/bonds are still in their bands.  So far n the last 2-3 years there is only one quarter where I bought anything but Bonds and that was April.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on August 24, 2020, 05:03:56 PM

Quote from: achvfi on August 24, 2020, 04:11:54 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 24, 2020, 02:58:58 PM

Quote from: achvfi on August 24, 2020, 12:28:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 24, 2020, 12:07:03 PM

I swear the markets are now officially in "stupid territory"

I hear similar assertions around this forum regularly, especially with folks with large investments in the market. But as far as I notice market has been hovering in same range since Jan 2018. Aside from pandemic effects, Not very impressive.

We must be looking at different markets.

The S&P 500 finished January 2018 at an adjusted close of 2822.43.  Dividing today's close of 3431.28 by that number shows a market return of 21.5%.  Dividing by the January 2, 2018 close shows a market return of 27.3%.

Source:  https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5EGSPC/history?period1=1514678400&period2=1517356800&interval=1d&filter=history&frequency=1d

Yes, that is my point, its been average and until recently well below average performance for S&P or US Total stock. For the most part its been flat over time. Its not some rip roaring crazy stupid performance. Its about time we see some returns and I hope it continues.

I like to compare it to earnings, both 10 year trailing and forward P/E. 

I think historical P/E is around 16.  We are at about 25 forward P/E right now. 

Now, some people think that since accounting standards tightened after Sarbanes Oxley, we aren't going to be regularly back down to P/E of 16 levels again.  Some people also point out that low interest rates would tend to be correlated with high P/E because stocks become relatively more attractive than bonds. 

I just sort of split the difference and assume that a P/E ratio of 20 is "about right" so anything below that is buy-buy-buy, between 20-25 is "stay the course" and beyond that "warning, potential bubble, consider de-risking."  De-risking doesn't mean pull everything out, it just might mean beef up the emergency funds and dial back on the stock-bond ratio.  I generally just hover between 85-90% stock and doubt I'd shift much beyond 80-95% in the accumulation phase.  I might get more conservative as I age or if I am drawing down but not yet. 

These are my very lazy rules of thumb.  I try not to get too granular beyond that because sometimes you lose the forest for the trees and also because lazy. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 24, 2020, 08:20:54 PM

Quote from: achvfi on August 24, 2020, 04:11:54 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 24, 2020, 02:58:58 PM

Quote from: achvfi on August 24, 2020, 12:28:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 24, 2020, 12:07:03 PM

I swear the markets are now officially in "stupid territory"

I hear similar assertions around this forum regularly, especially with folks with large investments in the market. But as far as I notice market has been hovering in same range since Jan 2018. Aside from pandemic effects, Not very impressive.

We must be looking at different markets.

The S&P 500 finished January 2018 at an adjusted close of 2822.43.  Dividing today's close of 3431.28 by that number shows a market return of 21.5%.  Dividing by the January 2, 2018 close shows a market return of 27.3%.

Source:  https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5EGSPC/history?period1=1514678400&period2=1517356800&interval=1d&filter=history&frequency=1d

Yes, that is my point, its been average and until recently well below average performance for S&P or US Total stock. For the most part its been flat over time. Its not some rip roaring crazy stupid performance. Its about time we see some returns and I hope it continues.

I'm not sure how old you are or how many dips you've been through, but this is a pretty rip roaring crazy stupid uninterrupted long term performance trend since a low of 667 in March 2009.  The fact that we had a quick dip and come back up to higher highs this year without any real change to the overall earnings outlook boggles my mind.  The only thing that explains climbing the 'wall of worry' so quickly without pandemic or economic resolution is that Congress and the Fed have so incredibly overcompensated in their initiatives to provide liquidity (it was only 800B and 2T in 2008, vs. more than 2T and 3T - and counting now), that they are inflating a bubble.  I would even hazard to guess, when economic historians look back on this, they will shake their head at our foolishness thinking that the pandemic battered market would best be helped by showering the owner classes with free money.  Assets skyrocketed, unemployment remained high, and the underlying economy barely budged - i.e. the poor were still being evicted and the rich received loads of money that didn't trickle down, expand business activity, etc.  A crony market cycle, if you will, as opposed to a virtuous cycle that sustains healthy stock markets.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 24, 2020, 10:32:48 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 24, 2020, 08:20:54 PM

Quote from: achvfi on August 24, 2020, 04:11:54 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 24, 2020, 02:58:58 PM

Quote from: achvfi on August 24, 2020, 12:28:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 24, 2020, 12:07:03 PM

I swear the markets are now officially in "stupid territory"

I hear similar assertions around this forum regularly, especially with folks with large investments in the market. But as far as I notice market has been hovering in same range since Jan 2018. Aside from pandemic effects, Not very impressive.

We must be looking at different markets.

The S&P 500 finished January 2018 at an adjusted close of 2822.43.  Dividing today's close of 3431.28 by that number shows a market return of 21.5%.  Dividing by the January 2, 2018 close shows a market return of 27.3%.

Source:  https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5EGSPC/history?period1=1514678400&period2=1517356800&interval=1d&filter=history&frequency=1d

Yes, that is my point, its been average and until recently well below average performance for S&P or US Total stock. For the most part its been flat over time. Its not some rip roaring crazy stupid performance. Its about time we see some returns and I hope it continues.

I'm not sure how old you are or how many dips you've been through, but this is a pretty rip roaring crazy stupid uninterrupted long term performance trend since a low of 667 in March 2009.  The fact that we had a quick dip and come back up to higher highs this year without any real change to the overall earnings outlook boggles my mind.  The only thing that explains climbing the 'wall of worry' so quickly without pandemic or economic resolution is that Congress and the Fed have so incredibly overcompensated in their initiatives to provide liquidity (it was only 800B and 2T in 2008, vs. more than 2T and 3T - and counting now), that they are inflating a bubble.  I would even hazard to guess, when economic historians look back on this, they will shake their head at our foolishness thinking that the pandemic battered market would best be helped by showering the owner classes with free money.  Assets skyrocketed, unemployment remained high, and the underlying economy barely budged - i.e. the poor were still being evicted and the rich received loads of money that didn't trickle down, expand business activity, etc.  A crony market cycle, if you will, as opposed to a virtuous cycle that sustains healthy stock markets.

There is no virtue to the gains we've enjoyed since the March lows.  But there is no shame to them either.  We put our money and risk and have been rewarded.  Yes much of those gains are from nothing byt government created debt.  Debt that woukd have been much better spent in the hands of the poor and unemployed.   But it came to us instead indirectly in the form of a stock market bubble.  I may indeed take profits.  Buy and hold can still work.  Especially for those with a long time to work.  But the stock market is now a poker game.  A good gambler knows when to cash in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 24, 2020, 11:26:23 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 24, 2020, 10:32:48 PM

There is no virtue to the gains we've enjoyed since the March lows.  But there is no shame to them either.  We put our money and risk and have been rewarded.  Yes much of those gains are from nothing byt government created debt.  Debt that woukd have been much better spent in the hands of the poor and unemployed.   But it came to us instead indirectly in the form of a stock market bubble.  I may indeed take profits.  Buy and hold can still work.  Especially for those with a long time to work.  But the stock market is now a poker game.  A good gambler knows when to cash in.

I'm guessing you're not cashing in quite like this guy (https://fortune.com/2020/08/18/elon-musk-worlds-fourth-richest-person/) -

Quote

Elon Musk’s financial upswing shows no signs of slowing.

The outspoken entrepreneur is now the world’s fourth-richest person after Tesla shares surged 11% on Monday, closing at a record high and boosting Musk’s net worth by $7.8 billion.

The rise vaulted the Tesla co-founder past French luxury tycoon Bernard Arnault, the wealthiest non-American on the Bloomberg Billionaires Index. Musk’s $84.8 billion fortune puts him within $15 billion of Mark Zuckerberg, No. 3 on the ranking of the world’s 500 richest people.

Monday’s Tesla rally is just the latest triumph for the billionaire who only two years ago was sued by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and had to resign as chairman of the electric-car maker over rogue tweets. Tesla shares, which rose 3% at 12:10 p.m. in New York, are up more than 353% this year, fueled by growing anticipation that the company will be included in the S&P 500 Index.

Is it reassuring for humanity to know that the world has folks with private fortunes of $50B+ while there are still many problems with hunger, disease, unemployment and eviction/homelessness...

I'm not really sure what I'd do with 1B because it almost seems like too much to be able to give away effectively, but it seems like a failure of the social system that multiple individuals attain this level of wealth.  The largest lottery jackpots are 600 - 700M, but have to pay 24 - 37% in tax (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/24/if-you-hit-the-750-million-powerball-jackpot-heres-your-tax-bill.html)...

It's an odd world that we live in, that's for sure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 25, 2020, 05:19:23 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 24, 2020, 11:26:23 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 24, 2020, 10:32:48 PM

There is no virtue to the gains we've enjoyed since the March lows.  But there is no shame to them either.  We put our money and risk and have been rewarded.  Yes much of those gains are from nothing byt government created debt.  Debt that woukd have been much better spent in the hands of the poor and unemployed.   But it came to us instead indirectly in the form of a stock market bubble.  I may indeed take profits.  Buy and hold can still work.  Especially for those with a long time to work.  But the stock market is now a poker game.  A good gambler knows when to cash in.

I'm guessing you're not cashing in quite like this guy (https://fortune.com/2020/08/18/elon-musk-worlds-fourth-richest-person/) -

Quote

Elon Musk’s financial upswing shows no signs of slowing.

The outspoken entrepreneur is now the world’s fourth-richest person after Tesla shares surged 11% on Monday, closing at a record high and boosting Musk’s net worth by $7.8 billion.

The rise vaulted the Tesla co-founder past French luxury tycoon Bernard Arnault, the wealthiest non-American on the Bloomberg Billionaires Index. Musk’s $84.8 billion fortune puts him within $15 billion of Mark Zuckerberg, No. 3 on the ranking of the world’s 500 richest people.

Monday’s Tesla rally is just the latest triumph for the billionaire who only two years ago was sued by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and had to resign as chairman of the electric-car maker over rogue tweets. Tesla shares, which rose 3% at 12:10 p.m. in New York, are up more than 353% this year, fueled by growing anticipation that the company will be included in the S&P 500 Index.

Is it reassuring for humanity to know that the world has folks with private fortunes of $50B+ while there are still many problems with hunger, disease, unemployment and eviction/homelessness...

I'm not really sure what I'd do with 1B because it almost seems like too much to be able to give away effectively, but it seems like a failure of the social system that multiple individuals attain this level of wealth.  The largest lottery jackpots are 600 - 700M, but have to pay 24 - 37% in tax (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/24/if-you-hit-the-750-million-powerball-jackpot-heres-your-tax-bill.html)...

It's an odd world that we live in, that's for sure.

We're the top 5 percent.  We still rub elbows with the bottom 95 percent.  Even clip an occasional coupon.  We do hold money made with speculation.  It's money from thin air that we never had to exchange physical work for.  I'm just saying it's not immoral to take it. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 25, 2020, 07:01:52 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 25, 2020, 05:19:23 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 24, 2020, 11:26:23 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 24, 2020, 10:32:48 PM

There is no virtue to the gains we've enjoyed since the March lows.  But there is no shame to them either.  We put our money and risk and have been rewarded.  Yes much of those gains are from nothing byt government created debt.  Debt that woukd have been much better spent in the hands of the poor and unemployed.   But it came to us instead indirectly in the form of a stock market bubble.  I may indeed take profits.  Buy and hold can still work.  Especially for those with a long time to work.  But the stock market is now a poker game.  A good gambler knows when to cash in.

I'm guessing you're not cashing in quite like this guy (https://fortune.com/2020/08/18/elon-musk-worlds-fourth-richest-person/) -

Quote

Elon Musk’s financial upswing shows no signs of slowing.

The outspoken entrepreneur is now the world’s fourth-richest person after Tesla shares surged 11% on Monday, closing at a record high and boosting Musk’s net worth by $7.8 billion.

The rise vaulted the Tesla co-founder past French luxury tycoon Bernard Arnault, the wealthiest non-American on the Bloomberg Billionaires Index. Musk’s $84.8 billion fortune puts him within $15 billion of Mark Zuckerberg, No. 3 on the ranking of the world’s 500 richest people.

Monday’s Tesla rally is just the latest triumph for the billionaire who only two years ago was sued by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and had to resign as chairman of the electric-car maker over rogue tweets. Tesla shares, which rose 3% at 12:10 p.m. in New York, are up more than 353% this year, fueled by growing anticipation that the company will be included in the S&P 500 Index.

Is it reassuring for humanity to know that the world has folks with private fortunes of $50B+ while there are still many problems with hunger, disease, unemployment and eviction/homelessness...

I'm not really sure what I'd do with 1B because it almost seems like too much to be able to give away effectively, but it seems like a failure of the social system that multiple individuals attain this level of wealth.  The largest lottery jackpots are 600 - 700M, but have to pay 24 - 37% in tax (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/24/if-you-hit-the-750-million-powerball-jackpot-heres-your-tax-bill.html)...

It's an odd world that we live in, that's for sure.

We're the top 5 percent.  We still rub elbows with the bottom 95 percent.  Even clip an occasional coupon.  We do hold money made with speculation.  It's money from thin air that we never had to exchange physical work for.  I'm just saying it's not immoral to take it.

There's literally 3 orders of magnitude difference between a millionaire and a billionaire.   

Any young person in America who can get a middle class job and keep it, and isn't subjected to catastrophic legal or medical woes, can achieve millionaire status by the time they retire.    It takes work, and knowledge, and discipline -- and luck not to get sick or sued by some crazy person, but it's completely achievable.   

A billionaire is an entirely different kettle of fish.   If I were Bezos or Musk, etc., I would up the pay of the folks at the bottom of the pay scale.   No one working for me would have a piss-poor wage.   I would be pumping huge swaths of my income into things  that would make a real difference in the quality of people's lives.   I don't mean a few % points off the top, I'm talking about 80+%.    I would say more but I assume billionaires need to pay for security details, etc., and I have no idea what that costs.   

My stock would take a hit and then, over a few years, as the money kept rolling in, it would recover.    I would have no problem with unions because employees would be paid well.   My staff would be very experienced, more efficient due to that, and very loyal as they would know they had a great job.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 25, 2020, 04:42:56 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 25, 2020, 07:01:52 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 25, 2020, 05:19:23 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 24, 2020, 11:26:23 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 24, 2020, 10:32:48 PM

There is no virtue to the gains we've enjoyed since the March lows.  But there is no shame to them either.  We put our money and risk and have been rewarded.  Yes much of those gains are from nothing byt government created debt.  Debt that woukd have been much better spent in the hands of the poor and unemployed.   But it came to us instead indirectly in the form of a stock market bubble.  I may indeed take profits.  Buy and hold can still work.  Especially for those with a long time to work.  But the stock market is now a poker game.  A good gambler knows when to cash in.

I'm guessing you're not cashing in quite like this guy (https://fortune.com/2020/08/18/elon-musk-worlds-fourth-richest-person/) -

Quote

Elon Musk’s financial upswing shows no signs of slowing.

The outspoken entrepreneur is now the world’s fourth-richest person after Tesla shares surged 11% on Monday, closing at a record high and boosting Musk’s net worth by $7.8 billion.

The rise vaulted the Tesla co-founder past French luxury tycoon Bernard Arnault, the wealthiest non-American on the Bloomberg Billionaires Index. Musk’s $84.8 billion fortune puts him within $15 billion of Mark Zuckerberg, No. 3 on the ranking of the world’s 500 richest people.

Monday’s Tesla rally is just the latest triumph for the billionaire who only two years ago was sued by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and had to resign as chairman of the electric-car maker over rogue tweets. Tesla shares, which rose 3% at 12:10 p.m. in New York, are up more than 353% this year, fueled by growing anticipation that the company will be included in the S&P 500 Index.

Is it reassuring for humanity to know that the world has folks with private fortunes of $50B+ while there are still many problems with hunger, disease, unemployment and eviction/homelessness...

I'm not really sure what I'd do with 1B because it almost seems like too much to be able to give away effectively, but it seems like a failure of the social system that multiple individuals attain this level of wealth.  The largest lottery jackpots are 600 - 700M, but have to pay 24 - 37% in tax (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/24/if-you-hit-the-750-million-powerball-jackpot-heres-your-tax-bill.html)...

It's an odd world that we live in, that's for sure.

We're the top 5 percent.  We still rub elbows with the bottom 95 percent.  Even clip an occasional coupon.  We do hold money made with speculation.  It's money from thin air that we never had to exchange physical work for.  I'm just saying it's not immoral to take it.

There's literally 3 orders of magnitude difference between a millionaire and a billionaire.   

Any young person in America who can get a middle class job and keep it, and isn't subjected to catastrophic legal or medical woes, can achieve millionaire status by the time they retire.    It takes work, and knowledge, and discipline -- and luck not to get sick or sued by some crazy person, but it's completely achievable.   

A billionaire is an entirely different kettle of fish.   If I were Bezos or Musk, etc., I would up the pay of the folks at the bottom of the pay scale.   No one working for me would have a piss-poor wage.   I would be pumping huge swaths of my income into things  that would make a real difference in the quality of people's lives.   I don't mean a few % points off the top, I'm talking about 80+%.    I would say more but I assume billionaires need to pay for security details, etc., and I have no idea what that costs.   

My stock would take a hit and then, over a few years, as the money kept rolling in, it would recover.    I would have no problem with unions because employees would be paid well.   My staff would be very experienced, more efficient due to that, and very loyal as they would know they had a great job.

Couldn't agree more. Occasionally we hear something good these CEO's do but there either are not enough of them with good intentions or,( like in Bezo's case being roughly 11% shareholder +/- last I checked awhile ago..).the boards might fire them before they could do to much. Tough part of being publicly traded. To your point being that smart, one would think there would be more creative ideas they could come up with, to sell there board, and further there brand be it by design or not. Considering his wife got 38 Billion ? and he survived just fine I am sure him and others could do more in ways like wages you suggested and might not even affect there stock.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 25, 2020, 06:25:51 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 25, 2020, 04:42:56 PM

Couldn't agree more. Occasionally we hear something good these CEO's do but there either are not enough of them with good intentions or,( like in Bezo's case being roughly 11% shareholder +/- last I checked awhile ago..).the boards might fire them before they could do to much. Tough part of being publicly traded. To your point being that smart, one would think there would be more creative ideas they could come up with, sell the to there board, and further there brand be it by design or not. Considering his wife got 38 Billion ? and he survived just fine I am sure him and others could do more in ways like wages you suggested and might not even affect there stock.

People don’t read their history.

Social and economic inequality? Check.
Economic mismanagement? Check.
Environmental factors? Check.
Political mismanagement? Check.
Expensive wars? Check.
Successful opposition to reforms? Check.
Extravagant lifestyles of the leadership and elites? Check.

Ya know, it didn’t work out real well for the elites in late 18th century France.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 26, 2020, 10:20:49 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 25, 2020, 06:25:51 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 25, 2020, 04:42:56 PM

Couldn't agree more. Occasionally we hear something good these CEO's do but there either are not enough of them with good intentions or,( like in Bezo's case being roughly 11% shareholder +/- last I checked awhile ago..).the boards might fire them before they could do to much. Tough part of being publicly traded. To your point being that smart, one would think there would be more creative ideas they could come up with, sell the to there board, and further there brand be it by design or not. Considering his wife got 38 Billion ? and he survived just fine I am sure him and others could do more in ways like wages you suggested and might not even affect there stock.

People don’t read their history.

Social and economic inequality? Check.
Economic mismanagement? Check.
Environmental factors? Check.
Political mismanagement? Check.
Expensive wars? Check.
Successful opposition to reforms? Check.
Extravagant lifestyles of the leadership and elites? Check.

Ya know, it didn’t work out real well for the elites in late 18th century France.

Yeh - Well this printing all this money kind of reminds me of the stories of the Weimar republic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic)

Seems like they borrowed a bunch of money to pay for wars.  The article says something like they expected the spoils of war to be used to pay it off.  Seems to me I remember a country talking about doing that with Iraqi oil a few years back.

I guess all bubbles eventually burst, oh well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on August 26, 2020, 10:24:59 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 26, 2020, 10:20:49 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on August 25, 2020, 06:25:51 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 25, 2020, 04:42:56 PM

Couldn't agree more. Occasionally we hear something good these CEO's do but there either are not enough of them with good intentions or,( like in Bezo's case being roughly 11% shareholder +/- last I checked awhile ago..).the boards might fire them before they could do to much. Tough part of being publicly traded. To your point being that smart, one would think there would be more creative ideas they could come up with, sell the to there board, and further there brand be it by design or not. Considering his wife got 38 Billion ? and he survived just fine I am sure him and others could do more in ways like wages you suggested and might not even affect there stock.

People don’t read their history.

Social and economic inequality? Check.
Economic mismanagement? Check.
Environmental factors? Check.
Political mismanagement? Check.
Expensive wars? Check.
Successful opposition to reforms? Check.
Extravagant lifestyles of the leadership and elites? Check.

Ya know, it didn’t work out real well for the elites in late 18th century France.

Yeh - Well this printing all this money kind of reminds me of the stories of the Weimar republic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic)

Seems like they borrowed a bunch of money to pay for wars.  The article says something like they expected the spoils of war to be used to pay it off.  Seems to me I remember a country talking about doing that with Iraqi oil a few years back.

I guess all bubbles eventually burst, oh well.

The Weimar Republic came about after the Great War. And yes, Germany went into debt to fund that war, but they were also subjected to crippling reparations at the end of the war. Most historians focus on these reparations when talking about Germany's "war debt" over the debt incurred fighting the war.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 26, 2020, 10:47:19 AM

Think of the reparations payments as the "pain and suffering" component of a legal judgment against them.    Huge swaths of an entire generation died in that war and the victors wanted those responsible to pay thru the nose.   

May not have been the wisest approach in retrospect, but it was certainly understandable.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on August 26, 2020, 11:56:11 AM

Warring militias in the streets, cat. 4 hurricane approaching, another 0.82% increase today for the S&P 500... 

I really just need to stick to real estate law and stop pretending I understand what moves the stock market. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 26, 2020, 03:03:44 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 26, 2020, 10:47:19 AM

Think of the reparations payments as the "pain and suffering" component of a legal judgment against them.    Huge swaths of an entire generation died in that war and the victors wanted those responsible to pay thru the nose.   

May not have been the wisest approach in retrospect, but it was certainly understandable.

And it was not what Woodrow Wilson wanted.  I listened to some NPR program basically about the Spanish flu and apparently Wilson was very anti reparations, but he got very sick at one point during treaty negotiations and when he came back to the table he didn’t hold a firm line.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 26, 2020, 03:27:59 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 26, 2020, 03:03:44 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 26, 2020, 10:47:19 AM

Think of the reparations payments as the "pain and suffering" component of a legal judgment against them.    Huge swaths of an entire generation died in that war and the victors wanted those responsible to pay thru the nose.   

May not have been the wisest approach in retrospect, but it was certainly understandable.

And it was not what Woodrow Wilson wanted.  I listened to some NPR program basically about the Spanish flu and apparently Wilson was very anti reparations, but he got very sick at one point during treaty negotiations and when he came back to the table he didn’t hold a firm line.
[/quote

No, it wasn't.  Then again, the USA didn't suffer the huge losses that France and Britain did.   We might have sung a different tune if we did.   

For example, in WWII we expected to incur about 1,200,000 casualties invading the Japanese islands.    (We also expected the Japanese would have had about 10,000,000 casualties.)    We decided "Screw that.    They started this.  They can feel the pain instead of us."   So we nuked them.   Can't say it was the wrong decision, either.   The Japanese as a whole came out ahead due to that decision.  (Obviously, those in Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't.)  Truman was certainly unwilling to lose that many more Americans when we had an alternative because he didn't know how to explain to all those mothers and fathers of dead sons why he had the ability to stop the war without their son's death -- and didn't use it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 27, 2020, 08:30:49 AM

Getting through Hurricane Laura OK thus far.  We're South of Baton Rouge and West of New Orleans.   Haven't lost power or had damages.  Western Louisiana and East Texas will be hurting for a long time however.  Send them some love.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 27, 2020, 08:43:39 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 27, 2020, 08:30:49 AM

Getting through Hurricane Laura OK thus far.  We're South of Baton Rouge and West of New Orleans.   Haven't lost power or had damages.  Western Louisiana and East Texas will be hurting for a long time however.  Send them some love.

For sure! the DW and I were talking about that this morning and all the areas in the country including near us that are dealing with alot more on top of the Pandemic. Stay safe!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on August 27, 2020, 10:19:39 AM

I'm feeling 'have' guilt today.....with all that's going on in the world, natural disasters, people loosing jobs/homes/businesses, I feel guilty that my nest egg has not only recovered but has reached new highs.

I know I'm not 'lucky', I'm here through hard work and diligence.....the only 'gifts' I got were a mind that works the way it does, parents that encouraged/helped with university and I live in Canada and the benefits that comes with that.

Still I feel guilty....you're the only people I can tell.   I can't talk about it IRL.   I don't have the assets of many on this group, but I have more than my immediate circle IRL.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 27, 2020, 10:36:40 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 27, 2020, 08:30:49 AM

Getting through Hurricane Laura OK thus far.  We're South of Baton Rouge and West of New Orleans.   Haven't lost power or had damages.  Western Louisiana and East Texas will be hurting for a long time however.  Send them some love.

Good Luck!  Seems like there are a lot more big storms than there used to be.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on August 27, 2020, 01:58:35 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on August 26, 2020, 11:56:11 AM

Warring militias in the streets, cat. 4 hurricane approaching, another 0.82% increase today for the S&P 500... 

I really just need to stick to real estate law and stop pretending I understand what moves the stock market.

I'm just going to say - I used to audit employee benefit plans of law firms.  They always "had" to have individual brokerage accounts for attorneys.  The attorneys would have hundreds of trades each year in their brokerage accounts. There'd be 1 or 2 attorneys at a firm that were successful at this effort and had significant returns, but the vast majority seemed to just never do well.  Day trading is not what you went to law school for.  (I am married to an attorney - he's crowing about his Tesla stock right now, but that same dude has historically bad taste in stock.  Luckily the majority is in index funds and it's only his fun money in individual stocks.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 27, 2020, 02:27:48 PM

Quote from: bluebelle on August 27, 2020, 10:19:39 AM

I'm feeling 'have' guilt today.....with all that's going on in the world, natural disasters, people loosing jobs/homes/businesses, I feel guilty that my nest egg has not only recovered but has reached new highs.

I know I'm not 'lucky', I'm here through hard work and diligence.....the only 'gifts' I got were a mind that works the way it does, parents that encouraged/helped with university and I live in Canada and the benefits that comes with that.

Still I feel guilty....you're the only people I can tell.   I can't talk about it IRL.   I don't have the assets of many on this group, but I have more than my immediate circle IRL.

I'm sorry that you're feeling guilt for your wealth.  There might be a bit of a cultural difference between Canadians and Americans in that sense.  I have zero wealth guilt.  As in none, nada, zip. I have a responsibility I think for using what I have wisely and morally, but guilt about having it?  Nope. In my view if you've somehow figured out a way to save money and build your wealth in spite of the godawful political governance, the wretched taxation, and the ever-present thievery, you should be applauded, not made to feel like you're done something wrong. Congratulations! You've figured out the code! 

There is a point I think where wealth needs to be reined in a bit and is likely counterproductive, but none of the folks assembled here are, to my knowledge, in the $100 million net worth and up range.

I think it's immensely entertaining to look at the personal wealth of those who profess to be "concerned" about excessive wealth.  Mike Bloomberg?  Now there's a populist for ya.  Net worth estimated at around $36 billion.  Even Bernie Sanders is in the 2 comma club; he would feel right at home with us given his personal net worth is estimated at being somewhere in the $2 million range.

A lot of those who profess to be "concerned" about concentrations of wealth seem to be more motivated by pulling up the ladder so others can't climb up.  Much more so than they are about any concerns about equity.  By and large they're NIMBYs and hypocrites shedding gallons of crocodile tears, who think that wealth is only good if they're the ones who possess it.

So let me congratulate you on your nest egg and wish you good fortune in acquiring enough to achieve your dreams! 

 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on August 27, 2020, 02:33:45 PM

Quote from: couponvan on August 27, 2020, 01:58:35 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on August 26, 2020, 11:56:11 AM

Warring militias in the streets, cat. 4 hurricane approaching, another 0.82% increase today for the S&P 500... 

I really just need to stick to real estate law and stop pretending I understand what moves the stock market.

I'm just going to say - I used to audit employee benefit plans of law firms.  They always "had" to have individual brokerage accounts for attorneys.  The attorneys would have hundreds of trades each year in their brokerage accounts. There'd be 1 or 2 attorneys at a firm that were successful at this effort and had significant returns, but the vast majority seemed to just never do well.  Day trading is not what you went to law school for.  (I am married to an attorney - he's crowing about his Tesla stock right now, but that same dude has historically bad taste in stock.  Luckily the majority is in index funds and it's only his fun money in individual stocks.)

I can imagine.  I was baptized into the cult of VTSAX by Burton Malkeil and John Bogle in college so I've been pretty good on that front.  Honestly, I don't even think I'd have the time to research things properly to my standards anyways, but I am guessing most of those traders aren't doing much research. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 27, 2020, 10:50:20 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 27, 2020, 08:30:49 AM

Getting through Hurricane Laura OK thus far.  We're South of Baton Rouge and West of New Orleans.   Haven't lost power or had damages.  Western Louisiana and East Texas will be hurting for a long time however.  Send them some love.

Love to them and love to you. I hope you continue to stay safe, @Bateaux.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 28, 2020, 11:33:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 27, 2020, 10:50:20 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 27, 2020, 08:30:49 AM

Getting through Hurricane Laura OK thus far.  We're South of Baton Rouge and West of New Orleans.   Haven't lost power or had damages.  Western Louisiana and East Texas will be hurting for a long time however.  Send them some love.

Love to them and love to you. I hope you continue to stay safe, @Bateaux.

Everyone we know locally is fine.  I've seen the horrible videos of Lake Charles and other areas in the path.  Heart breaking.  You guys be careful with the fires.  Seems mother nature is after all of us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: CANStache on August 29, 2020, 09:16:15 PM

Hi big-timers,

I passed $2M TNW early 2020, dropped back below for a few weeks, and have now grown to just below $2.2M TNW for August.  I guess this is my new thread, although this year doesn't seem like the time to be celebrating financial achievements when so many other things are going on in the world.

All the best to you all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 29, 2020, 09:25:34 PM

Quote from: CANStache on August 29, 2020, 09:16:15 PM

Hi big-timers,

I passed $2M TNW early 2020, dropped back below for a few weeks, and have now grown to just below $2.2M TNW for August.  I guess this is my new thread, although this year doesn't seem like the time to be celebrating financial achievements when so many other things are going on in the world.

All the best to you all.

Congrats.  Are you getting close to your exit number, or do you plan to keep accumulating for a while longer? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: CANStache on August 29, 2020, 10:01:33 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 29, 2020, 09:25:34 PM

Congrats.  Are you getting close to your exit number, or do you plan to keep accumulating for a while longer?

Close but no cigars just yet.  3-5 years should finish the job.  We have 3 kids, one half way through university, and live near Toronto in Canada, which means almost half our net worth is tied up in our residence.  So I think to clear future expenditures and ensure we have enough liquid NW, that's what it will take.  I'm 47 now, my wife retired last year from a stressful executive job at a large company.  Normally my job fits my lifestyle to a "t", although the last couple of months have been hectic.  If things return to normal, 3-5 should be more than doable.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 29, 2020, 11:39:12 PM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on August 14, 2020, 02:38:07 PM

More progress has been made! Up $1.5MM for the year. I turn 30 in a few weeks, so much for being young.

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70
07/10/2020: $3,098,138.96
08/14/2020: $3,243,042.90

I'm surprised you didn't post your move over $4M.  You should be well over that threshold at this point, once TSLA crossed the 2000 share price...   I hope you've loosened the purse strings and at least bought a car at this point!  Also, personally, you might do well to relax the frugality muscle :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on August 30, 2020, 01:16:28 AM

I didn't actually reach $4MM yet, but thanks for guessing I guess

I've been making progress on the getting a car and moving out of the city front! Should be done in a month or so.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 30, 2020, 01:44:42 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on August 30, 2020, 01:16:28 AM

I didn't actually reach $4MM yet, but thanks for guessing I guess

I've been making progress on the getting a car and moving out of the city front! Should be done in a month or so.

Just ribbing you a bit.  I bought a car in one day this year, it's not really a challenge for folks in the FI space.  Maybe you don't realize that you're FI, since it came on quickly, but there's not much to be gained from frugality anymore.  TSLA might pull back, but you have that more than covered at this point...  Just because you're 'only 30' doesn't mean that life won't pass you by.  I won't even tell you what my 30's were like - maybe I'd do it again as long as I knew I'd still end up where I'm currently at.  In other words, I made a lot of mistakes even after having everything I thought I ever wanted.

Life isn't just about money once you get to FI.  And it isn't necessarily 'easy street'.  Just a different version of 'the game'.  Kinda sucks that you're single though, I didn't have that problem and I don't envy you on that front.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 30, 2020, 08:41:35 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 30, 2020, 01:44:42 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on August 30, 2020, 01:16:28 AM

I didn't actually reach $4MM yet, but thanks for guessing I guess

I've been making progress on the getting a car and moving out of the city front! Should be done in a month or so.

Just ribbing you a bit.  I bought a car in one day this year, it's not really a challenge for folks in the FI space.  Maybe you don't realize that you're FI, since it came on quickly, but there's not much to be gained from frugality anymore.  TSLA might pull back, but you have that more than covered at this point...  Just because you're 'only 30' doesn't mean that life won't pass you by.  I won't even tell you what my 30's were like - maybe I'd do it again as long as I knew I'd still end up where I'm currently at.  In other words, I made a lot of mistakes even after having everything I thought I ever wanted.

Life isn't just about money once you get to FI.  And it isn't necessarily 'easy street'.  Just a different version of 'the game'.  Kinda sucks that you're single though, I didn't have that problem and I don't envy you on that front.

Being married kinda sucks sometimes too.  Owning a bunch of crap kinda sucks sometimes too.  We're all on different paths, and doing our best to find the best balance in life in the attempt to be happy.  Mr Derp has been fortunate in the choices he's made financially.  His path hasn't led him to a mate yet, but it hasn't led to divorces, alimony & child support yet either. 


Choosing to live a frugal life has taught him to be content with less, which is an admirable thing which will serve him well through life.  He understands the "value of a dollar", which means he probably won't get caught up in trying to buy happiness, and it also means he understands the "power of money" and how much he can help others with it.


I'm really looking forward to hearing about HD's adventures going forward.  He has a lot to look forward to.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 30, 2020, 09:38:35 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 30, 2020, 08:41:35 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 30, 2020, 01:44:42 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on August 30, 2020, 01:16:28 AM

I didn't actually reach $4MM yet, but thanks for guessing I guess

I've been making progress on the getting a car and moving out of the city front! Should be done in a month or so.

Just ribbing you a bit.  I bought a car in one day this year, it's not really a challenge for folks in the FI space.  Maybe you don't realize that you're FI, since it came on quickly, but there's not much to be gained from frugality anymore.  TSLA might pull back, but you have that more than covered at this point...  Just because you're 'only 30' doesn't mean that life won't pass you by.  I won't even tell you what my 30's were like - maybe I'd do it again as long as I knew I'd still end up where I'm currently at.  In other words, I made a lot of mistakes even after having everything I thought I ever wanted.

Life isn't just about money once you get to FI.  And it isn't necessarily 'easy street'.  Just a different version of 'the game'.  Kinda sucks that you're single though, I didn't have that problem and I don't envy you on that front.

Being married kinda sucks sometimes too.  Owning a bunch of crap kinda sucks sometimes too.  We're all on different paths, and doing our best to find the best balance in life in the attempt to be happy.  Mr Derp has been fortunate in the choices he's made financially.  His path hasn't led him to a mate yet, but it hasn't led to divorces, alimony & child support yet either. 

Choosing to live a frugal life has taught him to be content with less, which is an admirable thing which will serve him well through life.  He understands the "value of a dollar", which means he probably won't get caught up in trying to buy happiness, and it also means he understands the "power of money" and how much he can help others with it.

I'm really looking forward to hearing about HD's adventures going forward.  He has a lot to look forward to.

Being a sample size of one, being married has not sucked, and what I own has been carefully chosen and has not sucked.  And when I needed to, I have sold it off for at least some partial 'discount'.

But what I was really alluding to in the things @GreenEggs underlined is that I was married before all the financial gains, so I knew it truly was 'for better or for worse;  for rich or for poor' - and there is something irreversible about that, which is harder for him to obtain.

But I agree with the rest - I hope HD shares his adventures (and hopefully, eventually has some)...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 30, 2020, 12:28:55 PM

Married at 22 and broke.  It's what you did back in the day.  In 2020 marriage and kids aren't required.  I'd get out and do a lot of living before settling down.  Derp has decades before he has to marry and settle down.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 31, 2020, 03:50:37 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 30, 2020, 12:28:55 PM

Married at 22 and broke.  It's what you did back in the day.  In 2020 marriage and kids aren't required.  I'd get out and do a lot of living before settling down.  Derp has decades before he has to marry and settle down.

Quote from: Bateaux on August 30, 2020, 12:28:55 PM

Married at 22 and broke.  It's what you did back in the day.  In 2020 marriage and kids aren't required.  I'd get out and do a lot of living before settling down.  Derp has decades before he has to marry and settle down.

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 30, 2020, 09:38:35 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 30, 2020, 08:41:35 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 30, 2020, 01:44:42 AM

Quote from: Herbert Derp on August 30, 2020, 01:16:28 AM

I didn't actually reach $4MM yet, but thanks for guessing I guess

I've been making progress on the getting a car and moving out of the city front! Should be done in a month or so.

Just ribbing you a bit.  I bought a car in one day this year, it's not really a challenge for folks in the FI space.  Maybe you don't realize that you're FI, since it came on quickly, but there's not much to be gained from frugality anymore.  TSLA might pull back, but you have that more than covered at this point...  Just because you're 'only 30' doesn't mean that life won't pass you by.  I won't even tell you what my 30's were like - maybe I'd do it again as long as I knew I'd still end up where I'm currently at.  In other words, I made a lot of mistakes even after having everything I thought I ever wanted.

Life isn't just about money once you get to FI.  And it isn't necessarily 'easy street'.  Just a different version of 'the game'.  Kinda sucks that you're single though, I didn't have that problem and I don't envy you on that front.

Being married kinda sucks sometimes too.  Owning a bunch of crap kinda sucks sometimes too.  We're all on different paths, and doing our best to find the best balance in life in the attempt to be happy.  Mr Derp has been fortunate in the choices he's made financially.  His path hasn't led him to a mate yet, but it hasn't led to divorces, alimony & child support yet either. 

Choosing to live a frugal life has taught him to be content with less, which is an admirable thing which will serve him well through life.  He understands the "value of a dollar", which means he probably won't get caught up in trying to buy happiness, and it also means he understands the "power of money" and how much he can help others with it.

I'm really looking forward to hearing about HD's adventures going forward.  He has a lot to look forward to.

Being a sample size of one, being married has not sucked, and what I own has been carefully chosen and has not sucked.  And when I needed to, I have sold it off for at least some partial 'discount'.

But what I was really alluding to in the things @GreenEggs underlined is that I was married before all the financial gains, so I knew it truly was 'for better or for worse;  for rich or for poor' - and there is something irreversible about that, which is harder for him to obtain.

But I agree with the rest - I hope HD shares his adventures (and hopefully, eventually has some)...

Married at 20 "I cant get pregnant" Divorced and broke at 22. Debt big time. Child support for 18 year +/- never thought I would get married again. What it did do was make me grow up and get my ass moving. Ex Military went in at 17 so worked a bunch of shit jobs but always 2 or 3 so pretty much lost all my 20's. Was 27 ish when Things got going and started my first business then married at 32 , 24 years and 4 kids later here I am. Definately all take different journeys for various reasons. The key is to eventually get on the right path whatever it takes to grow up and stay there but to also take time and enjoy life along the way. I too looking back would change the 20s part and go to college which I missed, travel some and not get married till later but other than that I would do most of it all over again. Take your time meeting the right person because marriage is good when its good and really bad when its bad. Plus it can be a money buster.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on August 31, 2020, 04:12:25 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 30, 2020, 12:28:55 PM

In 2020 marriage and kids aren't required.  I'd get out and do a lot of living before settling down.

I see sugar babies in the future. Real relationships require multidimensional thinking and experience. There are certain things that no amount of money can purchase.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 31, 2020, 07:47:04 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on August 31, 2020, 04:12:25 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 30, 2020, 12:28:55 PM

In 2020 marriage and kids aren't required.  I'd get out and do a lot of living before settling down.

I see sugar babies in the future. Real relationships require multidimensional thinking and experience. There are certain things that no amount of money can purchase.

The sugar babies could be a lot of fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 31, 2020, 11:12:52 AM

I'm just saying he's got time before settling down.   Sailboat race around the world.  Climb Kilimanjaro.  Bikepacking across the world.  Scuba dive Fiji.  Or whatever he likes.  If that's a wife and babies, cool.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: FireLane on August 31, 2020, 05:25:33 PM

Greetings, all! I edged over the $2M mark last month, but I wanted to wait and see if it was a fluke before joining this thread. Looks like it's not:

August 2020: $1.84 LNW / $2.10 TNW

I never expected to be here - my original FIRE number was $1.5M, which I've obviously surpassed. COVID threw a wrench into my plans, and I figured that as long as I can't travel, I might as well work from home for a few more months and add to my stash. I feel like I'm just running up the score at this point, but hey, no one ever complained about having too much money to spend in retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Herbert Derp on August 31, 2020, 05:33:12 PM

Well, looks like I have completed the race from $2MM to $4MM in 195 days. That must be some kind of record around here! In any case, this is the last financial update from me, so you won't be hearing from me when the bubble inevitably bursts and sends me back below $4MM. Yes, I have foreseen this event. At this point, it doesn't make a difference anymore. The race is over.

I am about to turn 30, it's time for a new chapter in my life. As I mentioned earlier, I am in the process of buying a car and moving to a nicer apartment outside of my city. I will have more living space and lots of fresh air. I plan to do a lot of hiking! Also, book clubs would be nice.

As this chapter of my life closes, it's worth it to reflect on my journey so far. Over the course of my career, it has always been clear to me that more money does not in and of itself make me any happier. In fact, that was why I started my FIRE journey in the first place. After I graduated from college, I got a high-paying job and moved from the hood to the big city.

Six months later, I had some nice clothes (that actually fit) and a modern apartment downtown with stainless steel appliances and granite countertops, and had even managed to save up several tens of thousands of dollars. However, I wasn't any happier compared to back when I was living in the hood, with no job and only a few thousand dollars to my name. At that point, I decided that there must be some greater purpose to what I was doing and searched around on the internet, which is when I learned about FIRE.

I then dedicated the rest of my 20s to working tooth and nail in order to achieve this goal. With the FIRE goal in mind, I took steps to reduce my spending to the bare minimum. I moved out of my new apartment and rented a room in the hood for a year. I guess I missed the hood? I moved back downtown and bought a tiny efficiency condo in cash, so that I could reduce my total expenses to below $6,000 / year and lived that way for several years. I made friends and lost friends. I got taught some sharp lessons about the dangers of drugs and alcohol, and have been completely sober for a long time now. I got promoted several times, more than tripled my salary, and went on business trips around the world. Throughout it all, I worked--a lot. When it was at its worst, I worked nights and weekends on a constant basis for over a year.

Now that the goal has been reached and exceeded, I am less certain about what to do next. During the accumulation phase I spent so much time working that I did not take the time to discover what I'd rather be doing instead. Now, my primary goal in life is to discover what that thing I'd rather be doing is. During this time of exploration, I intend to keep my job as it seems to be the prudent thing to do. But as my net worth grows, I find that my work is getting less and less interesting and I feel an irresistible urge to get out, meet people, and try new things--hence the hiking and book clubs. I am also planning to take up horticulture as a hobby, who knows if I'll actually enjoy it or not, but there's only one way to find out!

Spoiler: show

11/23/2012: $45,000.00
08/03/2013: $100,000.00
01/01/2016: $408,896.04
01/01/2017: $617,283.09
06/06/2017: $758,104.40
10/15/2017: $856,488.71
11/18/2017: $929,536.54
11/27/2017: $944,395.35
12/17/2017: $956,928.07
01/01/2018: $968,307.87
01/05/2018: $987,442.11
01/08/2018: $996,215.32
01/09/2018: $998,819.79
01/10/2018: $999,079.24
01/11/2018: $1,003,101.34
02/01/2018: $1,061,732.89
02/28/2018: $1,062,750.48
05/18/2018: $1,149,432.76
06/06/2018: $1,203,026.63
07/11/2018: $1,232,435.26
08/02/2018: $1,269,509.32
09/01/2018: $1,326,015.73
03/05/2019: $1,327,833.14
06/10/2019: $1,462,549.50
07/07/2019: $1,519,162.03
12/14/2019: $1,628,320.78
01/01/2020: $1,705,284.27
02/02/2020: $1,838,397.87
02/13/2020: $1,961,653.87
02/19/2020: $2,000,505.43
04/14/2020: $2,002,087.12
05/09/2020: $2,148,999.11
06/20/2020: $2,471,306.02
07/01/2020: $2,632,979.23
07/02/2020: $2,721,395.70
07/10/2020: $3,098,138.96
08/14/2020: $3,243,042.90
08/31/2020: $4,134,844.24

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on August 31, 2020, 05:38:05 PM

Congratulations@Herbert Derp . What a lot of different experiences you've had in just 30 years. I'm sure the next 30 will bring lots of interesting and fun things.  Best of luck in the next chapter of your adventures!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arebelspy on August 31, 2020, 10:55:29 PM

First two million: 7.5 years. Next two million: 6 months.

Nuts.

Well done. Thanks for sharing your journey along the way. Glad to hear you understand you've won that game, time to move to other ones.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 01, 2020, 08:29:31 AM

Four million dollars and a lifetime of time ahead while looking for a worthwhile goal for that life.  Just want to note that a lot of people herein have posted how much reward they have had from helping other people.  Anyhow, it's just a thought.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on September 01, 2020, 09:11:08 AM

Quote from: pecunia on September 01, 2020, 08:29:31 AM

Just want to note that a lot of people herein have posted how much reward they have had from helping other people.  Anyhow, it's just a thought.

And a good thought, too!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roboturner on September 01, 2020, 11:08:45 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on July 02, 2020, 02:40:26 PM

Spoiler: show

Q2 2016:
LNW: 528k
TNW: 720k

Q3 2016:
LNW: 652k
TNW: 845k

YE 2016:
LNW: 685k
TNW: 893k

Q1 2017:
LNW: 800k
TNW: 1001k

Q2 2017:
LNW: 845k
TNW: 1060k

Q3 2017:
LNW: 921k
TNW: 1142k

YE 2017:
LNW: 1,012k
TNW: 1,230k

Q1 2018:
LNW: 1.09 MM
TNW: 1.33 MM

Q2 2018:
LNW: 1.16 MM
TNW: 1.45 MM

Q3 2018:
LNW: 1.28 MM
TNW: 1.57 MM

YE 2018:
LNW: 1.14 MM
TNW: 1.43 MM

Q1 2019:
LNW: 1.41 MM
TNW: 1.71 MM

Q2 2019:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.78 MM

Q3 2019:
LNW: 1.64 MM
TNW: 1.82 MM

YE 2019:
LNW: 1.84 MM
TNW: 2.02 MM

Q1 2020:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.79 MM

Q2 2020:
LNW: 1.94 MM
TNW: 2.15 MM

Q3 2020:
LNW: 2.12 MM
TNW: 2.46 MM

I know this is less important here, but I'm going to continue for posterity's sake.

Finished refi-ing/paying-down our home into a conventional with pretty good rates this Q, hence the jump in TNW

onward-forward

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on September 01, 2020, 11:09:57 AM

Quote from: FireLane on August 31, 2020, 05:25:33 PM

Greetings, all! I edged over the $2M mark last month, but I wanted to wait and see if it was a fluke before joining this thread. Looks like it's not:

August 2020: $1.84 LNW / $2.10 TNW

I never expected to be here - my original FIRE number was $1.5M, which I've obviously surpassed. COVID threw a wrench into my plans, and I figured that as long as I can't travel, I might as well work from home for a few more months and add to my stash. I feel like I'm just running up the score at this point, but hey, no one ever complained about having too much money to spend in retirement.

Hey, congrats!! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 01, 2020, 11:22:53 AM

Thanks for the meaty post Herbert.  I figured you'd hit the $4M pretty soon, and it becomes inevitable once you're FI.  No matter how much I seem to spend, my financial ball has so much mass and is rolling downhill, I can't stop it!  I have a more conservative allocation than you, in hopes that any bubble bursts don't take me out of FI even if I'm unemployed for the rest of my life, but that's about the only 'frivolous' thing I have bought lately.  That and paying off a small remaining mortgage on the house.  Underperformance is awfully expensive, but it also frees up my mind to think about other things - like how to keep things rolling this year and stay grateful, although this was not the high school experience I envisioned my kids having...

Good luck and happy travels to you.  And you're always welcome here for discussions about stuff other than money, money beyond FI in and of itself isn't very interesting - but finding purpose and contemplating what life looks like on the other side of ER is.  Or maybe you'll start spending more than $160k/yr and need to shoot for a higher NW :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on September 01, 2020, 11:55:09 AM

I too am very happy for HD (he says speaking about him in the third person).

But.. How the heck does one actually spend $160k per year?

Our max spend for two people without even thinking about it has been $52k. If we flew business class on our long trips I could maybe see another $20k.

If the ACA goes away.. OK, another $20k.

Ok so thats $100k.. Add an a new C8 Corvette every other year and maybe I could get to $140k..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 01, 2020, 01:26:13 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 31, 2020, 03:50:37 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 30, 2020, 12:28:55 PM

Married at 22 and broke.  It's what you did back in the day.  In 2020 marriage and kids aren't required.  I'd get out and do a lot of living before settling down.  Derp has decades before he has to marry and settle down.

Married at 20 "I cant get pregnant" Divorced and broke at 22. Debt big time. Child support for 18 year +/- never thought I would get married again. What it did do was make me grow up and get my ass moving. Ex Military went in at 17 so worked a bunch of shit jobs but always 2 or 3 so pretty much lost all my 20's. Was 27 ish when Things got going and started my first business then married at 32 , 24 years and 4 kids later here I am. Definately all take different journeys for various reasons. The key is to eventually get on the right path whatever it takes to grow up and stay there but to also take time and enjoy life along the way. I too looking back would change the 20s part and go to college which I missed, travel some and not get married till later but other than that I would do most of it all over again. Take your time meeting the right person because marriage is good when its good and really bad when its bad. Plus it can be a money buster.

I'm pretty dull compared to y'all.  Dated my college GF until we married at 27.  First child 3 years later, then another 2 years after that, then moved to Norway 2 years after that.  Probably the most exciting time of my life, selling the house and cars and moving overseas with a 2 and 4 year old!  Moved back to Houston in 2009, bought a house, my Dad's Mini-Cooper S, and a mini-van.  Then moved to Dubai for 3 years in 2011.  Put in a pool when we got back and eventually sold the Cooper and mini-van to buy a Fit and Highlander.  Acquired a cat and a dog, a few fun things and trips, but life isn't all that expensive.  Had a 15 year mortgage and just went ahead and paid it off earlier this year.  Only one big expense left, but we have over $100k in a 529 to help out...

Other than going mostly broke in 2000 during the tech-bubble burst, NW has headed in the right direction.  I mostly side-stepped the 'great recession' in 2008 by being out of the market and not having a house while I was overseas.  Crossed $1M NW in 2009 and the market been good ever since... 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 01, 2020, 02:53:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on September 01, 2020, 11:55:09 AM

I too am very happy for HD (he says speaking about him in the third person).

But.. How the heck does one actually spend $160k per year?

- SNIP -

This is America!  Drugs, sex and Rock 'n' Roll!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on September 01, 2020, 03:19:16 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 01, 2020, 02:53:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on September 01, 2020, 11:55:09 AM

I too am very happy for HD (he says speaking about him in the third person).

But.. How the heck does one actually spend $160k per year?

- SNIP -

This is America!  Drugs, sex and Rock 'n' Roll!

I spend half of my money on gambling, alcohol, and wild women.  The other half I waste.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on September 02, 2020, 10:53:48 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on September 01, 2020, 03:19:16 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 01, 2020, 02:53:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on September 01, 2020, 11:55:09 AM

I too am very happy for HD (he says speaking about him in the third person).

But.. How the heck does one actually spend $160k per year?

- SNIP -

This is America!  Drugs, sex and Rock 'n' Roll!

I spend half of my money on gambling, alcohol, and wild women.  The other half I waste.

Ha ha!  So that's the secret!  You all been holding out on me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 02, 2020, 11:05:37 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on September 01, 2020, 03:19:16 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 01, 2020, 02:53:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on September 01, 2020, 11:55:09 AM

I too am very happy for HD (he says speaking about him in the third person).

But.. How the heck does one actually spend $160k per year?

- SNIP -

This is America!  Drugs, sex and Rock 'n' Roll!

I spend half of my money on gambling, alcohol, and wild women.  The other half I waste.

And you probably made it all back and then some selling the right's to your life story!  'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas' or 'Leaving Las Vegas' maybe?  The 'rich' always have something valuable to sell...

I'm always confused when I hear that a 'rich person' went broke.  It's hard enough to buy something expensive and lose 50% of it's value quickly (like a house or a car), how do you lose 90 - 100% of the value?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 06:54:44 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on September 03, 2020, 06:59:04 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 06:54:44 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

Congrats Car Jack and good to hear from you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on September 03, 2020, 07:03:17 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 02, 2020, 11:05:37 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on September 01, 2020, 03:19:16 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 01, 2020, 02:53:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on September 01, 2020, 11:55:09 AM

I too am very happy for HD (he says speaking about him in the third person).

But.. How the heck does one actually spend $160k per year?

- SNIP -

This is America!  Drugs, sex and Rock 'n' Roll!

I spend half of my money on gambling, alcohol, and wild women.  The other half I waste.

And you probably made it all back and then some selling the right's to your life story!  'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas' or 'Leaving Las Vegas' maybe?  The 'rich' always have something valuable to sell...

I'm always confused when I hear that a 'rich person' went broke.  It's hard enough to buy something expensive and lose 50% of it's value quickly (like a house or a car), how do you lose 90 - 100% of the value?

They make spectacularly bad decisions (divorce, drugs, getting ripped off in business deals) and sometimes they are overly generous and attract a coterie of leachers. 

At some point their liquid net worth dwindles but they have these massive houses and fancy cars and they presume they are still rich because of these assets.  But they have debt, and incur more of it to keep up appearances and maintain their lifestyle and one day the debt starts to exceed the value of the assets and... kaput. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 03, 2020, 09:05:16 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on September 03, 2020, 07:03:17 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 02, 2020, 11:05:37 PM

Quote from: LWYRUP on September 01, 2020, 03:19:16 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 01, 2020, 02:53:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on September 01, 2020, 11:55:09 AM

I too am very happy for HD (he says speaking about him in the third person).

But.. How the heck does one actually spend $160k per year?

- SNIP -

This is America!  Drugs, sex and Rock 'n' Roll!

I spend half of my money on gambling, alcohol, and wild women.  The other half I waste.

And you probably made it all back and then some selling the right's to your life story!  'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas' or 'Leaving Las Vegas' maybe?  The 'rich' always have something valuable to sell...

I'm always confused when I hear that a 'rich person' went broke.  It's hard enough to buy something expensive and lose 50% of it's value quickly (like a house or a car), how do you lose 90 - 100% of the value?

They make spectacularly bad decisions (divorce, drugs, getting ripped off in business deals) and sometimes they are overly generous and attract a coterie of leachers. 

At some point their liquid net worth dwindles but they have these massive houses and fancy cars and they presume they are still rich because of these assets.  But they have debt, and incur more of it to keep up appearances and maintain their lifestyle and one day the debt starts to exceed the value of the assets and... kaput.

Sometimes, they even get to be President of the United States.  This is America!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: honeyfill on September 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 06:54:44 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on September 03, 2020, 09:46:44 AM

Quote from: honeyfill on September 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 06:54:44 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Here today, gone tomorrow... just kidding!  Lay off the drugs, booze and women and you'll be back over the 3mil mark in no time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 03, 2020, 10:23:49 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on September 03, 2020, 09:46:44 AM

Quote from: honeyfill on September 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 06:54:44 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Here today, gone tomorrow... just kidding!  Lay off the drugs, booze and women and you'll be back over the 3mil mark in no time.

Or hit the cheap drugs and booze extra hard and you'll be over 3mil again 'before you know it'!  Just stay away from women - lots of very expensive things can happen with that in the mix...

(note:  this is sarcasm - mainly distinguished by the inflection with which it is spoken and is largely context-dependent - hard to do well on the internet)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 01:09:26 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on September 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 06:54:44 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Could be!    Seems every new step I hit....as soon as I say something, the market makes a significant drop.

We celebrated anyways.  DW and I both work from home.  I went out and got us deli sandwiches for lunch.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 04, 2020, 04:27:08 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 01:09:26 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on September 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 06:54:44 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Could be!    Seems every new step I hit....as soon as I say something, the market makes a significant drop.

We celebrated anyways.  DW and I both work from home.  I went out and got us deli sandwiches for lunch.

Managed to remain above 2.5 liquid net worth.  We'll see what today brings.  I'm mentally prepared and our assets are arranged for a 20 percent drop.   Time will tell.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Tigerpine on September 04, 2020, 04:56:51 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on September 01, 2020, 03:19:16 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 01, 2020, 02:53:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on September 01, 2020, 11:55:09 AM

I too am very happy for HD (he says speaking about him in the third person).

But.. How the heck does one actually spend $160k per year?

- SNIP -

This is America!  Drugs, sex and Rock 'n' Roll!

I spend half of my money on gambling, alcohol, and wild women.  The other half I waste.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72mOCLzG9T4

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 04, 2020, 05:25:31 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 04, 2020, 04:27:08 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 01:09:26 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on September 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 06:54:44 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Could be!    Seems every new step I hit....as soon as I say something, the market makes a significant drop.

We celebrated anyways.  DW and I both work from home.  I went out and got us deli sandwiches for lunch.

Managed to remain above 2.5 liquid net worth.  We'll see what today brings.  I'm mentally prepared and our assets are arranged for a 20 percent drop.   Time will tell.

Think its fair to say most here were expecting a correction or bubble to bust or leak and for a lot of reasons the market was do for a sell off. Call me optimistic but I still believe by the end of the year we end up higher than we were but might get another buying opportunity along the way after some pain first. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 04, 2020, 07:16:37 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 04, 2020, 05:25:31 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 04, 2020, 04:27:08 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 01:09:26 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on September 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 06:54:44 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Could be!    Seems every new step I hit....as soon as I say something, the market makes a significant drop.

We celebrated anyways.  DW and I both work from home.  I went out and got us deli sandwiches for lunch.

Managed to remain above 2.5 liquid net worth.  We'll see what today brings.  I'm mentally prepared and our assets are arranged for a 20 percent drop.   Time will tell.

Think its fair to say most here were expecting a correction or bubble to bust or leak and for a lot of reasons the market was do for a sell off. Call me optimistic but I still believe by the end of the year we end up higher than we were but might get another buying opportunity along the way after some pain first.

Sticking to current positions and will buy if opportunities present themselves.  The overall trend has always been up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on September 04, 2020, 07:30:35 AM

It’s interesting, and natural that we all focus on the accumulation of wealth and how the markets are doing, but I’m finding that was actually the “easier” part. Work hard, invest as much as possible, going long on the market in low fee funds, and stay out of debt except for a mortgage.

I’m finding planning out the decumulation phase much more complicated. Planning out when to start taking money from which accounts, when to start the pension, when to take social security, all while minimizing tax impacts, guessing how long I’ll live, and oh how to get health care when I and hubby retire early!

For investments I plan to do a “barbell strategy”. One to two years living expenses in cash, the rest in the markets, and figure out the best strategy to replenish the cash as time goes by. So I try to just ignore these market swings. I feel I’ll always be long on the market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on September 04, 2020, 08:42:11 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 04, 2020, 07:30:35 AM

It’s interesting, and natural that we all focus on the accumulation of wealth and how the markets are doing, but I’m finding that was actually the “easier” part. Work hard, invest as much as possible, going long on the market in low fee funds, and stay out of debt except for a mortgage.

I’m finding planning out the decumulation phase much more complicated. Planning out when to start taking money from which accounts, when to start the pension, when to take social security, all while minimizing tax impacts, guessing how long I’ll live, and oh how to get health care when I and hubby retire early!

For investments I plan to do a “barbell strategy”. One to two years living expenses in cash, the rest in the markets, and figure out the best strategy to replenish the cash as time goes by. So I try to just ignore these market swings. I feel I’ll always be long on the market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ahh yes.. You have spent decades getting good at doing ONE thing.. i.e live frugal and invest. The other side of that see-saw (teeter totter) is far more complicated.

I honestly didn't hone that particular skill until after retirement. The good thing is you have WAY more time to figure it out!

Here is the problem, assuming you live in the USA.

Some function of.. Fed income taxes, State income taxes (hardest to optimise), ACA subsidies,when to take pensions (one of them foreign in my case), when to take SS = Providing more than enough cash to live on without thinking too hard.

The above equation is simplified in the early years by having a good chunk of your money in after tax accounts. My general strategy is to not take pre tax money until both of us are on Medicare.. That may result in us having way more money than we could ever spend.. Poor rich people problems.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on September 04, 2020, 11:09:42 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 04, 2020, 07:30:35 AM

It’s interesting, and natural that we all focus on the accumulation of wealth and how the markets are doing, but I’m finding that was actually the “easier” part. Work hard, invest as much as possible, going long on the market in low fee funds, and stay out of debt except for a mortgage.

I’m finding planning out the decumulation phase much more complicated. Planning out when to start taking money from which accounts, when to start the pension, when to take social security, all while minimizing tax impacts, guessing how long I’ll live, and oh how to get health care when I and hubby retire early!

For investments I plan to do a “barbell strategy”. One to two years living expenses in cash, the rest in the markets, and figure out the best strategy to replenish the cash as time goes by. So I try to just ignore these market swings. I feel I’ll always be long on the market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you haven’t read it already, Early Retirement Now goes into painful detail regarding withdrawal strategies. Worth the read.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on September 04, 2020, 12:27:13 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 04, 2020, 11:09:42 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 04, 2020, 07:30:35 AM

It’s interesting, and natural that we all focus on the accumulation of wealth and how the markets are doing, but I’m finding that was actually the “easier” part. Work hard, invest as much as possible, going long on the market in low fee funds, and stay out of debt except for a mortgage.

I’m finding planning out the decumulation phase much more complicated. Planning out when to start taking money from which accounts, when to start the pension, when to take social security, all while minimizing tax impacts, guessing how long I’ll live, and oh how to get health care when I and hubby retire early!

For investments I plan to do a “barbell strategy”. One to two years living expenses in cash, the rest in the markets, and figure out the best strategy to replenish the cash as time goes by. So I try to just ignore these market swings. I feel I’ll always be long on the market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you haven’t read it already, Early Retirement Now goes into painful detail regarding withdrawal strategies. Worth the read.

Thanks, I’ll check it out. My issue is too much tax deferred accounts, between IRAs, pension, deferred comp and Social security. Chances are that is way more than enough already for retirement, so I need to figure out the optimal way to fund the early years of RE.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on September 04, 2020, 12:38:50 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 04, 2020, 11:09:42 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 04, 2020, 07:30:35 AM

It’s interesting, and natural that we all focus on the accumulation of wealth and how the markets are doing, but I’m finding that was actually the “easier” part. Work hard, invest as much as possible, going long on the market in low fee funds, and stay out of debt except for a mortgage.

I’m finding planning out the decumulation phase much more complicated. Planning out when to start taking money from which accounts, when to start the pension, when to take social security, all while minimizing tax impacts, guessing how long I’ll live, and oh how to get health care when I and hubby retire early!

For investments I plan to do a “barbell strategy”. One to two years living expenses in cash, the rest in the markets, and figure out the best strategy to replenish the cash as time goes by. So I try to just ignore these market swings. I feel I’ll always be long on the market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you haven’t read it already, Early Retirement Now goes into painful detail regarding withdrawal strategies. Worth the read.

Who’s the author? An online search results in a lot of books on the topic but none with that exact name.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on September 04, 2020, 12:53:36 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 04, 2020, 12:38:50 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 04, 2020, 11:09:42 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 04, 2020, 07:30:35 AM

It’s interesting, and natural that we all focus on the accumulation of wealth and how the markets are doing, but I’m finding that was actually the “easier” part. Work hard, invest as much as possible, going long on the market in low fee funds, and stay out of debt except for a mortgage.

I’m finding planning out the decumulation phase much more complicated. Planning out when to start taking money from which accounts, when to start the pension, when to take social security, all while minimizing tax impacts, guessing how long I’ll live, and oh how to get health care when I and hubby retire early!

For investments I plan to do a “barbell strategy”. One to two years living expenses in cash, the rest in the markets, and figure out the best strategy to replenish the cash as time goes by. So I try to just ignore these market swings. I feel I’ll always be long on the market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you haven’t read it already, Early Retirement Now goes into painful detail regarding withdrawal strategies. Worth the read.

Who’s the author? An online search results in a lot of books on the topic but none with that exact name.


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https://earlyretirementnow.com/

Safe Withdrawal Rate series. Or just dig around.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 04, 2020, 02:03:22 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 04, 2020, 07:16:37 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 04, 2020, 05:25:31 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 04, 2020, 04:27:08 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 01:09:26 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on September 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 06:54:44 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Could be!    Seems every new step I hit....as soon as I say something, the market makes a significant drop.

We celebrated anyways.  DW and I both work from home.  I went out and got us deli sandwiches for lunch.

Managed to remain above 2.5 liquid net worth.  We'll see what today brings.  I'm mentally prepared and our assets are arranged for a 20 percent drop.   Time will tell.

Think its fair to say most here were expecting a correction or bubble to bust or leak and for a lot of reasons the market was do for a sell off. Call me optimistic but I still believe by the end of the year we end up higher than we were but might get another buying opportunity along the way after some pain first.

Sticking to current positions and will buy if opportunities present themselves.  The overall trend has always been up.

Whipsaw today , Dow even went Green for a bit early afternoon but cut its losses in half so not as bad as I was expecting going into a 3 day weekend. Seems like just profit taking but we will see.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 05, 2020, 06:09:15 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 04, 2020, 02:03:22 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 04, 2020, 07:16:37 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 04, 2020, 05:25:31 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 04, 2020, 04:27:08 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 01:09:26 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on September 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 06:54:44 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Could be!    Seems every new step I hit....as soon as I say something, the market makes a significant drop.

We celebrated anyways.  DW and I both work from home.  I went out and got us deli sandwiches for lunch.

Managed to remain above 2.5 liquid net worth.  We'll see what today brings.  I'm mentally prepared and our assets are arranged for a 20 percent drop.   Time will tell.

Think its fair to say most here were expecting a correction or bubble to bust or leak and for a lot of reasons the market was do for a sell off. Call me optimistic but I still believe by the end of the year we end up higher than we were but might get another buying opportunity along the way after some pain first.

Sticking to current positions and will buy if opportunities present themselves.  The overall trend has always been up.

Whipsaw today , Dow even went Green for a bit early afternoon but cut its losses in half so not as bad as I was expecting going into a 3 day weekend. Seems like just profit taking but we will see.

Pretty much a non-event thus far.  Lost about 30K of recent gains.  Screw it .  Just letting it ride for now.  I'm not even buying much right now.  Hopefully we see at least 10 percent drop in coming months for a buying opportunity.  We've got cooler weather coming and I'm planning some epic outdoor stuff.  In a couple of weeks I'm going on a 200 mile off-road bikepacking trip in Arkansas.  In a month I'm hiking the Appalachian Trail for two weeks.  Next week we're at the Florida house for some beach fun, kayaking and maybe fishing.  Shits coming along nicely.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 06, 2020, 04:34:52 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 05, 2020, 06:09:15 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 04, 2020, 02:03:22 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 04, 2020, 07:16:37 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 04, 2020, 05:25:31 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 04, 2020, 04:27:08 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 01:09:26 PM

Quote from: honeyfill on September 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 03, 2020, 06:54:44 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Could be!    Seems every new step I hit....as soon as I say something, the market makes a significant drop.

We celebrated anyways.  DW and I both work from home.  I went out and got us deli sandwiches for lunch.

Managed to remain above 2.5 liquid net worth.  We'll see what today brings.  I'm mentally prepared and our assets are arranged for a 20 percent drop.   Time will tell.

Think its fair to say most here were expecting a correction or bubble to bust or leak and for a lot of reasons the market was do for a sell off. Call me optimistic but I still believe by the end of the year we end up higher than we were but might get another buying opportunity along the way after some pain first.

Sticking to current positions and will buy if opportunities present themselves.  The overall trend has always been up.

Whipsaw today , Dow even went Green for a bit early afternoon but cut its losses in half so not as bad as I was expecting going into a 3 day weekend. Seems like just profit taking but we will see.

Pretty much a non-event thus far.  Lost about 30K of recent gains.  Screw it .  Just letting it ride for now.  I'm not even buying much right now.  Hopefully we see at least 10 percent drop in coming months for a buying opportunity.  We've got cooler weather coming and I'm planning some epic outdoor stuff.  In a couple of weeks I'm going on a 200 mile off-road bikepacking trip in Arkansas.  In a month I'm hiking the Appalachian Trail for two weeks.  Next week we're at the Florida house for some beach fun, kayaking and maybe fishing.  Shits coming along nicely.

Agree! Sounds like you have an exciting fall planned. By us its coming in sooner than usual. September at least it usually a good month yet but we've dropped 20 degrees over the last week and the forecast is all low 60s and a lot of rain in through the next week. Cant complain though despite the Pandemic its been a great summer and we to have a busy fall.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 09, 2020, 06:12:43 AM

Where is Derp?  I'm sure he's still rich as hell.  Maybe he sold before the big drop?  Last few days have been brutal to tech.  I should have sold my Apple.  Every thing else just rides.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on September 09, 2020, 07:19:44 AM

Sold ESPP.  The cash settled and I moved some to Ally, paid some bills and then looked at my checking account.  It sat at 11849.  So like any OCD person, I moved $849 to TDAmeritrade and put in a buy order for 3 share of VTI yesterday.  After that bought, I had almost enough for another share, and said "what the heck" and put in another buy order with a limit of what I had left.  At the end of the day, it did buy.  Buying opportunities and all.  Saved me the transfer of extra cash back to my checking account.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on September 09, 2020, 08:15:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 09, 2020, 06:12:43 AM

Where is Derp?  I'm sure he's still rich as hell.  Maybe he sold before the big drop?  Last few days have been brutal to tech.  I should have sold my Apple.  Every thing else just rides.

Ummm, Maybe......but it only took it back to like month ago values - and and all the hot ones are still way way up for the year - TSLA up 270% YTD, yeah he still rich.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 09, 2020, 08:49:01 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on September 09, 2020, 08:15:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 09, 2020, 06:12:43 AM

Where is Derp?  I'm sure he's still rich as hell.  Maybe he sold before the big drop?  Last few days have been brutal to tech.  I should have sold my Apple.  Every thing else just rides.

Ummm, Maybe......but it only took it back to like month ago values - and and all the hot ones are still way way up for the year - TSLA up 270% YTD, yeah he still rich.

Exactly.  Hell, he may have already retired.  I'm down over 70K but that is all gains from the crazy rise as well.  I feel we're going lower in coming months.  Doesn't matter much now since I'm probably working until 2023. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 09, 2020, 10:31:29 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 09, 2020, 08:49:01 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on September 09, 2020, 08:15:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 09, 2020, 06:12:43 AM

Where is Derp?  I'm sure he's still rich as hell.  Maybe he sold before the big drop?  Last few days have been brutal to tech.  I should have sold my Apple.  Every thing else just rides.

Ummm, Maybe......but it only took it back to like month ago values - and and all the hot ones are still way way up for the year - TSLA up 270% YTD, yeah he still rich.

Exactly.  Hell, he may have already retired.  I'm down over 70K but that is all gains from the crazy rise as well.  I feel we're going lower in coming months.  Doesn't matter much now since I'm probably working until 2023.

Yea who knows with this market. In my fun account I just bought some spec stocks yesterday like COTY, NOK, and RADA but thats pretty much it . Not doing anything unless  we get a  25% ish  correction then I will buy some VTI but were looking to get a bounce back today be it a Dead Cat bounce or not who knows.

As far as Derp goes I thought in his last post be it this site or another he said "This will be my last post".......

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 09, 2020, 04:25:44 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 09, 2020, 10:31:29 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 09, 2020, 08:49:01 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on September 09, 2020, 08:15:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 09, 2020, 06:12:43 AM

Where is Derp?  I'm sure he's still rich as hell.  Maybe he sold before the big drop?  Last few days have been brutal to tech.  I should have sold my Apple.  Every thing else just rides.

Ummm, Maybe......but it only took it back to like month ago values - and and all the hot ones are still way way up for the year - TSLA up 270% YTD, yeah he still rich.

Exactly.  Hell, he may have already retired.  I'm down over 70K but that is all gains from the crazy rise as well.  I feel we're going lower in coming months.  Doesn't matter much now since I'm probably working until 2023.

Yea who knows with this market. In my fun account I just bought some spec stocks yesterday like COTY, NOK, and RADA but thats pretty much it . Not doing anything unless  we get a  25% ish  correction then I will buy some VTI but were looking to get a bounce back today be it a Dead Cat bounce or not who knows.

As far as Derp goes I thought in his last post be it this site or another he said "This will be my last post".......

Wish him well.  What an incredibly fast ride up.  He may not see another comma, but I'd bet another digit isn't all that far out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on September 14, 2020, 02:09:47 PM

Woohoo - finally, on the path to retiring. I've managed to extricate myself from the startup where I've been working for the past year. I'm going to be part time until the end of the year and will quit then. I have finally persuaded the team that they will be able to get along just fine without me - whew! Meanwhile, invested net worth is now up to 5.2M, gulp!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on September 14, 2020, 02:57:15 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 14, 2020, 02:09:47 PM

Woohoo - finally, on the path to retiring. I've managed to extricate myself from the startup where I've been working for the past year. I'm going to be part time until the end of the year and will quit then. I have finally persuaded the team that they will be able to get along just fine without me - whew! Meanwhile, invested net worth is now up to 5.2M, gulp!

Congratulations! Nicely done. With $5.2 M I suppose you’ll be able to skip dumpster diving.

Any specific plans?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on September 14, 2020, 03:51:36 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 14, 2020, 02:57:15 PM

Congratulations! Nicely done. With $5.2 M I suppose you’ll be able to skip dumpster diving.

Any specific plans?

Short term, one of my big tasks will be to oversee some major home renovations. In particular, completely fix our basement which is where my lair will be located. Goal is to get back into electronics hacking - an enjoyable hobby that I have neglected in recent years. Will need to acquire an oscilloscope, waveform generators, power supplies etc. Also plan to dabble in robotics and 3D printing. Start a modular model railroad club in my town.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 14, 2020, 04:23:35 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 14, 2020, 03:51:36 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 14, 2020, 02:57:15 PM

Congratulations! Nicely done. With $5.2 M I suppose you’ll be able to skip dumpster diving.

Any specific plans?

Short term, one of my big tasks will be to oversee some major home renovations. In particular, completely fix our basement which is where my lair will be located. Goal is to get back into electronics hacking - an enjoyable hobby that I have neglected in recent years. Will need to acquire an oscilloscope, waveform generators, power supplies etc. Also plan to dabble in robotics and 3D printing. Start a modular model railroad club in my town.

Sounds awesome! Congrats!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on September 14, 2020, 09:23:43 PM

Fantastic...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on September 15, 2020, 02:35:48 AM

Thanks

Its hard to express what a positive impact this forum has had upon me. I discovered MMM just barely a year and a half ago. At that time:

• My finances were messy being scattered among multiple accounts.
• I had no idea what my overall asset allocation was or what it even should be.
• I had no idea that there was even a concept called "SWR"
• The work environment was progressively worsening at the megacorp where I worked at the time.
• I had no idea that I did not absolutely have to work until age 65 :-)

Thanks to suggestions from here, I read Living Off Your Money by Michael McClung - what a revelation! I spent much of 2019 cleaning up my finances and getting to the asset allocation I wanted. Quit megacorp and joined a startup. And now finally, I'm on the path to full retirement .

I offer my thanks to perceptive and supportive comments from @Exflyboy @soccerluvof4  @lhamo @pecunia and @Dicey

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on September 15, 2020, 06:16:11 AM

I just ordered the book you recommended. Can’t wait until it’s available for me to read.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 15, 2020, 10:30:02 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 15, 2020, 02:35:48 AM

Thanks

Its hard to express what a positive impact this forum has had upon me. I discovered MMM just barely a year and a half ago. At that time:

• My finances were messy being scattered among multiple accounts.
• I had no idea what my overall asset allocation was or what it even should be.
• I had no idea that there was even a concept called "SWR"
• The work environment was progressively worsening at the megacorp where I worked at the time.
• I had no idea that I did not absolutely have to work until age 65 :-)

Thanks to suggestions from here, I read Living Off Your Money by Michael McClung - what a revelation! I spent much of 2019 cleaning up my finances and getting to the asset allocation I wanted. Quit megacorp and joined a startup. And now finally, I'm on the path to full retirement .

I offer my thanks to perceptive and supportive comments from @Exflyboy @soccerluvof4  @lhamo @pecunia and @Dicey

Awesome.  Get out and enjoy that big pile of stash.  This thread is how I keep my sanity at times.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on September 16, 2020, 08:11:07 AM

In I guess a case of “the Rich get, richer,”. My Amex Marriott card just offered me a spend $1000 before 10/30 get a $100 statement credit for my card “anniversary”.  It’s just another in the series of extra bonuses they have sent out to me since March so it completely has covered its fee and then some this year.  This one really stuck me because of the rather large “reward” for a small spend. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 18, 2020, 04:15:10 AM

Alot of green chutes reported the last couple days but the rise in Covid, Politics and run up in Tech is leading to profit taking. Economy is recovering though faster than they though but can it continue? Guess thats the question. If the keep propping it up I guess anything is possible. Something better get resolved though with stimulus for people or alot of people going to sadly be hurting.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 18, 2020, 07:38:10 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 18, 2020, 04:15:10 AM

Alot of green chutes reported the last couple days but the rise in Covid, Politics and run up in Tech is leading to profit taking. Economy is recovering though faster than they though but can it continue? Guess thats the question. If the keep propping it up I guess anything is possible. Something better get resolved though with stimulus for people or alot of people going to sadly be hurting.

I think you are a wise man, but that could just be that I agree with you.  I don't think pumping money into the economy generates "real" wealth.  Getting money into the pockets of the average Joe and Jane will generate demand for real goods and services.  I mean tangible things.  People have to work and make those tangible goods.  This generates the need to hire people to make those goods.  The same goes for services. 

You guys give better information than all those financial news reporters.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on September 18, 2020, 11:35:16 AM

Quote from: pecunia on September 18, 2020, 07:38:10 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 18, 2020, 04:15:10 AM

Alot of green chutes reported the last couple days but the rise in Covid, Politics and run up in Tech is leading to profit taking. Economy is recovering though faster than they though but can it continue? Guess thats the question. If the keep propping it up I guess anything is possible. Something better get resolved though with stimulus for people or alot of people going to sadly be hurting.

I think you are a wise man, but that could just be that I agree with you.  I don't think pumping money into the economy generates "real" wealth.  Getting money into the pockets of the average Joe and Jane will generate demand for real goods and services.  I mean tangible things.  People have to work and make those tangible goods.  This generates the need to hire people to make those goods.  The same goes for services. 

You guys give better information than all those financial news reporters.

Yes. When you give money to people, they buy stuffs, money goes to companies, and stops. It does not do the circulation function that money is supposed to do.

If people work, companies pay people money, people buy stuffs, company receive money, pay people. In this way, money circulates as it is supposed to do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on September 18, 2020, 11:43:09 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on September 18, 2020, 11:35:16 AM

Quote from: pecunia on September 18, 2020, 07:38:10 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 18, 2020, 04:15:10 AM

Alot of green chutes reported the last couple days but the rise in Covid, Politics and run up in Tech is leading to profit taking. Economy is recovering though faster than they though but can it continue? Guess thats the question. If the keep propping it up I guess anything is possible. Something better get resolved though with stimulus for people or alot of people going to sadly be hurting.

I think you are a wise man, but that could just be that I agree with you.  I don't think pumping money into the economy generates "real" wealth.  Getting money into the pockets of the average Joe and Jane will generate demand for real goods and services.  I mean tangible things.  People have to work and make those tangible goods.  This generates the need to hire people to make those goods.  The same goes for services. 

You guys give better information than all those financial news reporters.

Yes. When you give money to people, they buy stuffs, money goes to companies, and stops. It does not do the circulation function that money is supposed to do.

If people work, companies pay people money, people buy stuffs, company receive money, pay people. In this way, money circulates as it is supposed to do.

Money is like manure, it works better if you spread it around (or something like that).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 18, 2020, 12:55:52 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 18, 2020, 11:43:09 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on September 18, 2020, 11:35:16 AM

Quote from: pecunia on September 18, 2020, 07:38:10 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 18, 2020, 04:15:10 AM

Alot of green chutes reported the last couple days but the rise in Covid, Politics and run up in Tech is leading to profit taking. Economy is recovering though faster than they though but can it continue? Guess thats the question. If the keep propping it up I guess anything is possible. Something better get resolved though with stimulus for people or alot of people going to sadly be hurting.

I think you are a wise man, but that could just be that I agree with you.  I don't think pumping money into the economy generates "real" wealth.  Getting money into the pockets of the average Joe and Jane will generate demand for real goods and services.  I mean tangible things.  People have to work and make those tangible goods.  This generates the need to hire people to make those goods.  The same goes for services. 

You guys give better information than all those financial news reporters.

Yes. When you give money to people, they buy stuffs, money goes to companies, and stops. It does not do the circulation function that money is supposed to do.

If people work, companies pay people money, people buy stuffs, company receive money, pay people. In this way, money circulates as it is supposed to do.

Money is like manure, it works better if you spread it around (or something like that).

This year has been a catastrophe in terms of 'spreading it around' though.  Folks like Bezos and Musk are sucking up billions per day (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/bezos-record-multibillion-dollar-net-worth-gain-bloomberg.html#:~:text=Power%20Players-,Jeff%20Bezos%20added%20%2413%20billion%20to%20his%20net%20worth,day%E2%80%94and%20that's%20a%20record&text=Jeff%20Bezos%20had%20a%20pretty,on%20Monday%2C%20according%20to%20Bloomberg.), while 'regular folks' manage to make rent payments.  The rich don't have anything left to soak up all the money sloshing around in their accounts, and the poor are drying out and starting to feel the drought.  At some point, the government will have to rely on the economy actually paying for the country to stay solvent, instead of borrowing and spending trillions with no end in sight. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on September 18, 2020, 02:29:56 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 18, 2020, 12:55:52 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 18, 2020, 11:43:09 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on September 18, 2020, 11:35:16 AM

Quote from: pecunia on September 18, 2020, 07:38:10 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 18, 2020, 04:15:10 AM

Alot of green chutes reported the last couple days but the rise in Covid, Politics and run up in Tech is leading to profit taking. Economy is recovering though faster than they though but can it continue? Guess thats the question. If the keep propping it up I guess anything is possible. Something better get resolved though with stimulus for people or alot of people going to sadly be hurting.

I think you are a wise man, but that could just be that I agree with you.  I don't think pumping money into the economy generates "real" wealth.  Getting money into the pockets of the average Joe and Jane will generate demand for real goods and services.  I mean tangible things.  People have to work and make those tangible goods.  This generates the need to hire people to make those goods.  The same goes for services. 

You guys give better information than all those financial news reporters.

Yes. When you give money to people, they buy stuffs, money goes to companies, and stops. It does not do the circulation function that money is supposed to do.

If people work, companies pay people money, people buy stuffs, company receive money, pay people. In this way, money circulates as it is supposed to do.

Money is like manure, it works better if you spread it around (or something like that).

This year has been a catastrophe in terms of 'spreading it around' though.  Folks like Bezos and Musk are sucking up billions per day (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/bezos-record-multibillion-dollar-net-worth-gain-bloomberg.html#:~:text=Power%20Players-,Jeff%20Bezos%20added%20%2413%20billion%20to%20his%20net%20worth,day%E2%80%94and%20that's%20a%20record&text=Jeff%20Bezos%20had%20a%20pretty,on%20Monday%2C%20according%20to%20Bloomberg.), while 'regular folks' manage to make rent payments.  The rich don't have anything left to soak up all the money sloshing around in their accounts, and the poor are drying out and starting to feel the drought.  At some point, the government will have to rely on the economy actually paying for the country to stay solvent, instead of borrowing and spending trillions with no end in sight.

I'm all for spreading it around (I for sure am for higher top tax brackets).  But lets not kid ourselves about what spreading it around could do.  The median household income in 2018 was $62k.  The mean household income was $72k.  So on average spreading it all around COMPLETELY means the average family makes $72k instead of $62k.  I guess if you are a family making $20k right now thats a pretty good reason to hate inequity, but if you're around the median its really not affecting you that much.

Of course the extreme outliers are really sucking up the wealth.  For example taking Bill Gates and Warren Buffet's wealth and letting the government use it instead of them would obviously lead to more efficient use and everyone being better off.... ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on September 18, 2020, 04:35:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 18, 2020, 12:55:52 PM

This year has been a catastrophe in terms of 'spreading it around' though.  Folks like Bezos and Musk are sucking up billions per day (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/bezos-record-multibillion-dollar-net-worth-gain-bloomberg.html#:~:text=Power%20Players-,Jeff%20Bezos%20added%20%2413%20billion%20to%20his%20net%20worth,day%E2%80%94and%20that's%20a%20record&text=Jeff%20Bezos%20had%20a%20pretty,on%20Monday%2C%20according%20to%20Bloomberg.), while 'regular folks' manage to make rent payments.  The rich don't have anything left to soak up all the money sloshing around in their accounts, and the poor are drying out and starting to feel the drought.  At some point, the government will have to rely on the economy actually paying for the country to stay solvent, instead of borrowing and spending trillions with no end in sight.

OK. I’ll bite. Why does the economy have to pay at all? Our national debt to GDP ratio is somewhere north of 107%.  Compare that to Japan at above 235%. 

Now of course there will be all sorts of taxes coming that affect those of healthy but less than stratospheric means. Like those of us assembled here. I’m sure it’ll be for the “Greater Good.”  Oh, and it’ll be for The Children, too.

Never forget The Children.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on September 18, 2020, 11:34:48 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on September 18, 2020, 02:29:56 PM

Of course the extreme outliers are really sucking up the wealth.  For example taking Bill Gates and Warren Buffet's wealth and letting the government use it instead of them would obviously lead to more efficient use and everyone being better off.... ;-)

Oh, lots of questions with this one.  Why do you think that the government would spend it more efficiently than Gates or Buffett?  I mean, there are rich people out there that we could tax a few billion off of and build roads and bridges and schools and such.  But Gates and Buffett have already pledged to turn basically all their money over to the Gates Foundation, and the Gates Foundation is using that money to fund vaccines, healthcare, and other initiatives in new and innovative ways.  Isn't that a good thing?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on September 19, 2020, 12:37:21 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on September 18, 2020, 11:34:48 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on September 18, 2020, 02:29:56 PM

Of course the extreme outliers are really sucking up the wealth.  For example taking Bill Gates and Warren Buffet's wealth and letting the government use it instead of them would obviously lead to more efficient use and everyone being better off.... ;-)

Oh, lots of questions with this one.  Why do you think that the government would spend it more efficiently than Gates or Buffett?  I mean, there are rich people out there that we could tax a few billion off of and build roads and bridges and schools and such.  But Gates and Buffett have already pledged to turn basically all their money over to the Gates Foundation, and the Gates Foundation is using that money to fund vaccines, healthcare, and other initiatives in new and innovative ways.  Isn't that a good thing?

Actually no - see https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/08/how-philanthropy-benefits-the-super-rich

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on September 19, 2020, 06:03:06 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on September 18, 2020, 11:34:48 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on September 18, 2020, 02:29:56 PM

Of course the extreme outliers are really sucking up the wealth.  For example taking Bill Gates and Warren Buffet's wealth and letting the government use it instead of them would obviously lead to more efficient use and everyone being better off.... ;-)

Oh, lots of questions with this one.  Why do you think that the government would spend it more efficiently than Gates or Buffett?  I mean, there are rich people out there that we could tax a few billion off of and build roads and bridges and schools and such.  But Gates and Buffett have already pledged to turn basically all their money over to the Gates Foundation, and the Gates Foundation is using that money to fund vaccines, healthcare, and other initiatives in new and innovative ways.  Isn't that a good thing?

I apologize, my winky face didn't appropriately convey the sarcasm that was intended, I've got to learn how to do that.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on September 19, 2020, 06:28:59 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on September 19, 2020, 06:03:06 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on September 18, 2020, 11:34:48 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on September 18, 2020, 02:29:56 PM

Of course the extreme outliers are really sucking up the wealth.  For example taking Bill Gates and Warren Buffet's wealth and letting the government use it instead of them would obviously lead to more efficient use and everyone being better off.... ;-)

Oh, lots of questions with this one.  Why do you think that the government would spend it more efficiently than Gates or Buffett?  I mean, there are rich people out there that we could tax a few billion off of and build roads and bridges and schools and such.  But Gates and Buffett have already pledged to turn basically all their money over to the Gates Foundation, and the Gates Foundation is using that money to fund vaccines, healthcare, and other initiatives in new and innovative ways.  Isn't that a good thing?

I apologize, my winky face didn't appropriately convey the sarcasm that was intended, I've got to learn how to do that.....

I got it.

Clearly there's a role for government, the "market" can't do everything. I'm reading Simon Winchester's "The Men Who United the States". Just read about the Erie canal construction. Those kind of projects, which can create enormous good for the country, can often only be financed by government.

Anyway, I just learned from the Facebooks that Bill Gates worked with China to create the Coronavirus, so he could make millions by forcing us all to take the vaccine that we don't want, which may have a tracking microchip in it. You can't fix stupid.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on September 19, 2020, 07:16:29 AM

My view of the canal project though was that it was kind of a waste of money in the end as shortly after they were built the railroads came along and crushed them.  I know the C&O canal ended up being a giant exercise in pointlessness, though we have a good long distance bike path as a result.  Did the Erie canal have a larger impact?

Sorry for random tangent!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 19, 2020, 10:00:03 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on September 19, 2020, 07:16:29 AM

My view of the canal project though was that it was kind of a waste of money in the end as shortly after they were built the railroads came along and crushed them.  I know the C&O canal ended up being a giant exercise in pointlessness, though we have a good long distance bike path as a result.  Did the Erie canal have a larger impact?

Sorry for random tangent!

Hope to hit that tow path with my bike in coming years.  It as well as rail trails have had useful second lives.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 20, 2020, 08:19:17 AM

I have been listening to some right wing radio since retiring.  I notice they "cherry pick" their examples.  In an example given above, an example was "cherry picked."  The example given was government spending on canal building.  It was given as a bad example of government spending.  This is going to happen.  The technological change of the railroads was not anticipated.  Then government is composed of people.  Whether people are in private enterprise or public service, mistakes are going to happen.

The big difference in whether the money is spent by private endeavors or public is who controls the money and to what end.

Public expenditures are for the public good.  If the money is spent wisely, they are an investment in the future.

Private expenditures are for the private good.  The sole reason for the firm is to make money.  The argument can be made that they can only make money by providing a valuable service to the populace.  However, other than market forces, there is no guidance assuring that the private investment of the money is the best thing for the people.

Public expenditures are chosen by the people and / or the people's representatives.  The choice of what the money is to be spent on is made by them.  Their needs are directly satisfied in a manner chosen by them.  Without profit being drawn from the top, the public needs may be better satisfied.  Take the example of toll roads.  A toll road administered by the public is likely to cost less than that road owned  / administered by a private concern.  I've seen the same for electricity and in the past for Cable TV. 

Examples can be "cherry picked" to promote either public or private investment.

I guess AdrianC already said this and was a lot less verbose, but I'm too lazy to erase this one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on September 20, 2020, 10:56:36 AM

@pecunia Im glad you closed with the observation that people can cherry pick either private or public investment, although it’s been my personal observation that more cherry picking goes on with regard to public investment in the last 20 years. We keep on hearing how various governmental organizations need to spend more on X public good. While very little in the regard to how those expenditures work out in the long term. So if we spend X billion on a specific social good, what are the actual outcomes? What are the metrics? Moreover, if there is a private counterpart, how do they do in comparison?

Let me give an example. Hunger. I think that most of us would agree that having people starving or malnourished in the US is a bad thing. So we can approach that through either private means such as food banks or public means such as SNAP. Which is more efficient? Which is more scalable in a crisis? For each dollar spent, which achieves the end objective better? That’s of course subjective, but from I’ve seen of the last 6 months, the food banks have done an incredible job.

This also begs the question: so what exactly is the “public good” and who gets to decide? Since when is a bunch of politicians better placed to decide virtue? Let’s just look at past examples of the public good where we spent a whole lot of money. If we go back less than 20 years we can see that the public good was fighting a war in the Middle East. I strongly question the idea that the public good is somehow better than the private.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on September 20, 2020, 02:16:13 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 20, 2020, 10:56:36 AM

@pecunia Im glad you closed with the observation that people can cherry pick either private or public investment, although it’s been my personal observation that more cherry picking goes on with regard to public investment in the last 20 years. We keep on hearing how various governmental organizations need to spend more on X public good. While very little in the regard to how those expenditures work out in the long term. So if we spend X billion on a specific social good, what are the actual outcomes? What are the metrics? Moreover, if there is a private counterpart, how do they do in comparison?

Let me give an example. Hunger. I think that most of us would agree that having people starving or malnourished in the US is a bad thing. So we can approach that through either private means such as food banks or public means such as SNAP. Which is more efficient? Which is more scalable in a crisis? For each dollar spent, which achieves the end objective better? That’s of course subjective, but from I’ve seen of the last 6 months, the food banks have done an incredible job.

This also begs the question: so what exactly is the “public good” and who gets to decide? Since when is a bunch of politicians better placed to decide virtue? Let’s just look at past examples of the public good where we spent a whole lot of money. If we go back less than 20 years we can see that the public good was fighting a war in the Middle East. I strongly question the idea that the public good is somehow better than the private.

Hmm.. Wars a highly stimulative to the economy.. We first learned this in WW2 where it could be argued that the massive Government spending finally brought us out of the Great Depression.

I suspect our nice clean sanitised wars (held offshore to keep the true horrors somewhat out of sight) are mainly for the benefit of our defense industry when then pay rich people dividends.

Same as healthcare.. The more expensive it is the bigger our dividend checks.. Motivation to make haelthcare cheaper or to not start another war.. Roughly zero!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LetItGrow on September 20, 2020, 05:04:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on September 20, 2020, 02:16:13 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 20, 2020, 10:56:36 AM

@pecunia Im glad you closed with the observation that people can cherry pick either private or public investment, although it’s been my personal observation that more cherry picking goes on with regard to public investment in the last 20 years. We keep on hearing how various governmental organizations need to spend more on X public good. While very little in the regard to how those expenditures work out in the long term. So if we spend X billion on a specific social good, what are the actual outcomes? What are the metrics? Moreover, if there is a private counterpart, how do they do in comparison?

Let me give an example. Hunger. I think that most of us would agree that having people starving or malnourished in the US is a bad thing. So we can approach that through either private means such as food banks or public means such as SNAP. Which is more efficient? Which is more scalable in a crisis? For each dollar spent, which achieves the end objective better? That’s of course subjective, but from I’ve seen of the last 6 months, the food banks have done an incredible job.

This also begs the question: so what exactly is the “public good” and who gets to decide? Since when is a bunch of politicians better placed to decide virtue? Let’s just look at past examples of the public good where we spent a whole lot of money. If we go back less than 20 years we can see that the public good was fighting a war in the Middle East. I strongly question the idea that the public good is somehow better than the private.

Hmm.. Wars a highly stimulative to the economy.. We first learned this in WW2 where it could be argued that the massive Government spending finally brought us out of the Great Depression.

I suspect our nice clean sanitised wars (held offshore to keep the true horrors somewhat out of sight) are mainly for the benefit of our defense industry when then pay rich people dividends.

Same as healthcare.. The more expensive it is the bigger our dividend checks.. Motivation to make haelthcare cheaper or to not start another war.. Roughly zero!

Yeah, there’s a lot of trickledown that we often forget about. Or at least choose to ignore a bit because of our swelling accounts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on September 21, 2020, 02:30:58 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 20, 2020, 08:19:17 AM

I guess AdrianC already said this and was a lot less verbose, but I'm too lazy to erase this one.

Or correct it's mischaracterizations, apparently.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: AdrianC on September 23, 2020, 07:59:28 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on September 19, 2020, 07:16:29 AM

My view of the canal project though was that it was kind of a waste of money in the end as shortly after they were built the railroads came along and crushed them.  I know the C&O canal ended up being a giant exercise in pointlessness, though we have a good long distance bike path as a result.  Did the Erie canal have a larger impact?

Railroads took over eventually. The Erie canal was successful for decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_Canal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_Canal#Impact

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on September 23, 2020, 08:07:43 AM

Quote from: AdrianC on September 23, 2020, 07:59:28 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on September 19, 2020, 07:16:29 AM

My view of the canal project though was that it was kind of a waste of money in the end as shortly after they were built the railroads came along and crushed them.  I know the C&O canal ended up being a giant exercise in pointlessness, though we have a good long distance bike path as a result.  Did the Erie canal have a larger impact?

Railroads took over eventually. The Erie canal was successful for decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_Canal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_Canal#Impact

Thanks, looks like it had a good 40-50 year run.  In my view if an infrastructure project is well-used for 30 years, it can probably be viewed as a success.  So I guess it's more accurate to say the US went 1-1 on big canal projects. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 24, 2020, 03:24:55 AM

See what today does but the trend has been lower highs and lower lows of late. Been adding on scale to my 1% FUN account for now but if this continues time to start scaling and adding extra cash into VTI.  Think if we go down (which my gut tells me were on are way) we will probably get down to the March lows again and hang around until the election, stimulus and the pandemic gets straightened out this time. Looking at it as an opportunity. But would prefer not to go down as much! :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 24, 2020, 07:53:25 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 24, 2020, 03:24:55 AM

See what today does but the trend has been lower highs and lower lows of late. Been adding on scale to my 1% FUN account for now but if this continues time to start scaling and adding extra cash into VTI.  Think if we go down (which my gut tells me were on are way) we will probably get down to the March lows again and hang around until the election, stimulus and the pandemic gets straightened out this time. Looking at it as an opportunity. But would prefer not to go down as much! :-)

I think election uncertainty will do a number on the market.  March lowes are possible, but I doubt they'd stay that low very long.  People want to be in the market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on September 25, 2020, 03:24:35 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 24, 2020, 07:53:25 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on September 24, 2020, 03:24:55 AM

See what today does but the trend has been lower highs and lower lows of late. Been adding on scale to my 1% FUN account for now but if this continues time to start scaling and adding extra cash into VTI.  Think if we go down (which my gut tells me were on are way) we will probably get down to the March lows again and hang around until the election, stimulus and the pandemic gets straightened out this time. Looking at it as an opportunity. But would prefer not to go down as much! :-)

I think election uncertainty will do a number on the market.  March lowes are possible, but I doubt they'd stay that low very long.  People want to be in the market.

I think most pundits would agree with you. Market really seems to want in the short term that stimulus package approved and longer term a Vaccine.  Since Powel last spoke its dropped. Needs to be sector rotation and its trying but always ends up getting back to what the tech stocks are going to do. But as you I dont see any reason for it with all the liquidity in the market and the green chutes for a major event. Time will only tell......

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on September 25, 2020, 09:21:53 PM

I was going through the end-of-month accounting, and it feels so good to have everything organized the way we have it.  We still have a mortgage, but it's our only debt.  We consolidated some other real estate debt into our mortgage last year, and I just finished a no-cost interest rate reduction with our lender, so now we're down to 3%.  We don't plan to pay it off faster than required now, instead shoveling money into taxable accounts.  Our taxable accounts, cash, and rental house could be used to pay off our residence at any time, which feels great.

The past six months of staying at home have been both wonderful and difficult.  On the difficult side, it's a bummer to be going into winter facing more of the same along with kids in school.  We are managing, though, and our expenses are down, which helps supercharge our savings.  We've been fortunate to not miss any income, our renter is solid, and I've been able to use the extra time around the house to get some things done.

I have been seriously thinking of retiring early for several years, and the pandemic couldn't have been better timed to give me a taste of working from home.  It's okay, and someday I'll be ready for more of a part time arrangement from home.  Right now, though, with our income where it is and all the uncertainty out there, I am grateful for full-time work, and even look forward to getting back in the office in hopefully 6 to 9 months.  In the meantime, on with the padding of the stash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on September 26, 2020, 08:32:13 AM

Like @Taran Wanderer getting organized was one of the best things to come out of joining this forum. At the beginning of 2019 we had multiple 401Ks and IRAs, multiple post-tax brokerage accounts (including several just for company options and RSUs), multiple bank accounts, variable life insurance (I know!). Just computing net worth took half an hour and gathering the data gathering from various sources was tedious to say the least.

I have now consolidated to one post-tax brokerage account and one IRA for my self (wife still has her 401K). It feels really good to see a clean and simple balance sheet that I can update quickly once a week :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on September 26, 2020, 10:08:59 AM

I only wish we were that organized.  We still have his and hers checking and saving accounts, an extra saving account, 5 different credit cards between us (which is nice if one gets hacked), and all the flavors of retirement accounts for each of us, plus kids with saving and 529 accounts.  And a 125 plan.  And an investment club.  Honestly, sometimes it feels like a side-job as an accountant to manage all this.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 27, 2020, 04:54:48 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 18, 2020, 04:35:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 18, 2020, 12:55:52 PM

This year has been a catastrophe in terms of 'spreading it around' though.  Folks like Bezos and Musk are sucking up billions per day (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/bezos-record-multibillion-dollar-net-worth-gain-bloomberg.html#:~:text=Power%20Players-,Jeff%20Bezos%20added%20%2413%20billion%20to%20his%20net%20worth,day%E2%80%94and%20that's%20a%20record&text=Jeff%20Bezos%20had%20a%20pretty,on%20Monday%2C%20according%20to%20Bloomberg.), while 'regular folks' manage to make rent payments.  The rich don't have anything left to soak up all the money sloshing around in their accounts, and the poor are drying out and starting to feel the drought.  At some point, the government will have to rely on the economy actually paying for the country to stay solvent, instead of borrowing and spending trillions with no end in sight.

OK. I’ll bite. Why does the economy have to pay at all? Our national debt to GDP ratio is somewhere north of 107%.  Compare that to Japan at above 235%. 
...

I keep hearing this refrain and can't help but wonder, do you want America to follow Japan's Nikkei Index post-1990?  That's 30 years of break even, after a really terrible crash?  Sure, Japan isn't looking as bad as Greece on the surface, but it's a homogenous culture.  On the flip side, there is Norway, similarly homogenous, with surplus for years. 

America cannot continue to borrow as it has indefinitely without seriously knee-capping its options to continue to borrow.  We are far from a stable, homogenous society, in case you haven't noticed lately.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on September 27, 2020, 05:48:50 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 27, 2020, 04:54:48 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 18, 2020, 04:35:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 18, 2020, 12:55:52 PM

This year has been a catastrophe in terms of 'spreading it around' though.  Folks like Bezos and Musk are sucking up billions per day (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/bezos-record-multibillion-dollar-net-worth-gain-bloomberg.html#:~:text=Power%20Players-,Jeff%20Bezos%20added%20%2413%20billion%20to%20his%20net%20worth,day%E2%80%94and%20that's%20a%20record&text=Jeff%20Bezos%20had%20a%20pretty,on%20Monday%2C%20according%20to%20Bloomberg.), while 'regular folks' manage to make rent payments.  The rich don't have anything left to soak up all the money sloshing around in their accounts, and the poor are drying out and starting to feel the drought.  At some point, the government will have to rely on the economy actually paying for the country to stay solvent, instead of borrowing and spending trillions with no end in sight.

OK. I’ll bite. Why does the economy have to pay at all? Our national debt to GDP ratio is somewhere north of 107%.  Compare that to Japan at above 235%. 
...

I keep hearing this refrain and can't help but wonder, do you want America to follow Japan's Nikkei Index post-1990?  That's 30 years of break even, after a really terrible crash?  Sure, Japan isn't looking as bad as Greece on the surface, but it's a homogenous culture.  On the flip side, there is Norway, similarly homogenous, with surplus for years. 

America cannot continue to borrow as it has indefinitely without seriously knee-capping its options to continue to borrow.  We are far from a stable, homogenous society, in case you haven't noticed lately.

Given that I try to keep my exposure to US equities low, I can’t say that it much matters to me what US equity markets do, other than the US markets have a nasty tendency to correlate with other global markets. But I don’t think that’s the real concern here. I think it’s more of a concern that the US won’t be able to sell its debt at favorable terms and that the US will somehow, in some way suffer some horrible malaise as a result of profligate state spending.

I’ve been hearing this argument my entire adult life and you know what? The malaise hasn’t happened yet. The Government has been spending to beat the band for decades now. The national debt hasn’t been a problem from the perspective of being able to service the debt. It has been a problem in that the spending has tended to benefit the already ultra-wealthy at the expense of everyone else. Not that surprising when you have a multimillionaire Congress and a never ending  succession of corporatist presidents.

What concerns me though is this logic that says that the national debt is like personal debt. It isn’t. Personal debt has to repaid at some point, public debt doesn’t. And it never will be. But what ends up happening is that well meaning people in their zeal to try to repay what can never be repaid start coming up will all sorts of not-so-bright ideas to pay it off. Like raising taxes on the ultra-wealthy. Sounds nice! It’ll never happen. Part of the reason the ultra-wealthy are that way is they have the systems and accountants and lawyers and, let’s face it, politicians to ensure that they will never pay more than a token amount. What a tax hike for the ultra-wealthy really means is that everyone else’s taxes get jacked up.

And when taxes don’t work, then we get into the really destructive ideas like selling off public assets to pay off the debt. And guess who will be buying them at fire sale prices?

The national debt is just one of those nonissues that we can largely ignore. Yeah, there probably is a point where issuing more debt won’t work. We’re not there. Given that we’re experiencing negligible inflation, we’re nowhere near that ceiling.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 27, 2020, 06:05:54 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 27, 2020, 05:48:50 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 27, 2020, 04:54:48 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 18, 2020, 04:35:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 18, 2020, 12:55:52 PM

This year has been a catastrophe in terms of 'spreading it around' though.  Folks like Bezos and Musk are sucking up billions per day (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/bezos-record-multibillion-dollar-net-worth-gain-bloomberg.html#:~:text=Power%20Players-,Jeff%20Bezos%20added%20%2413%20billion%20to%20his%20net%20worth,day%E2%80%94and%20that's%20a%20record&text=Jeff%20Bezos%20had%20a%20pretty,on%20Monday%2C%20according%20to%20Bloomberg.), while 'regular folks' manage to make rent payments.  The rich don't have anything left to soak up all the money sloshing around in their accounts, and the poor are drying out and starting to feel the drought.  At some point, the government will have to rely on the economy actually paying for the country to stay solvent, instead of borrowing and spending trillions with no end in sight.

OK. I’ll bite. Why does the economy have to pay at all? Our national debt to GDP ratio is somewhere north of 107%.  Compare that to Japan at above 235%. 
...

I keep hearing this refrain and can't help but wonder, do you want America to follow Japan's Nikkei Index post-1990?  That's 30 years of break even, after a really terrible crash?  Sure, Japan isn't looking as bad as Greece on the surface, but it's a homogenous culture.  On the flip side, there is Norway, similarly homogenous, with surplus for years. 

America cannot continue to borrow as it has indefinitely without seriously knee-capping its options to continue to borrow.  We are far from a stable, homogenous society, in case you haven't noticed lately.

Given that I try to keep my exposure to US equities low, I can’t say that it much matters to me what US equity markets do, other than the US markets have a nasty tendency to correlate with other global markets. But I don’t think that’s the real concern here. I think it’s more of a concern that the US won’t be able to sell its debt at favorable terms and that the US will somehow, in some way suffer some horrible malaise as a result of profligate state spending.

I’ve been hearing this argument my entire adult life and you know what? The malaise hasn’t happened yet. The Government has been spending to beat the band for decades now. The national debt hasn’t been a problem from the perspective of being able to service the debt. It has been a problem in that the spending has tended to benefit the already ultra-wealthy at the expense of everyone else. Not that surprising when you have a multimillionaire Congress and a never ending  succession of corporatist presidents.

What concerns me though is this logic that says that the national debt is like personal debt. It isn’t. Personal debt has to repaid at some point, public debt doesn’t. And it never will be. But what ends up happening is that well meaning people in their zeal to try to repay what can never be repaid start coming up will all sorts of not-so-bright ideas to pay it off. Like raising taxes on the ultra-wealthy. Sounds nice! It’ll never happen. Part of the reason the ultra-wealthy are that way is they have the systems and accountants and lawyers and, let’s face it, politicians to ensure that they will never pay more than a token amount. What a tax hike for the ultra-wealthy really means is that everyone else’s taxes get jacked up.

And when taxes don’t work, then we get into the really destructive ideas like selling off public assets to pay off the debt. And guess who will be buying them at fire sale prices?

The national debt is just one of those nonissues that we can largely ignore. Yeah, there probably is a point where issuing more debt won’t work. We’re not there. Given that we’re experiencing negligible inflation, we’re nowhere near that ceiling.

I'm responding at the point that I bolded.  I'll read the rest, but honestly, this is not in touch with reality.  In the 1990's, the US budget finally started  running a surplus and GDP was still growing.  We slipped in to some deficits and had bubbles burst, but the US GDP could have outpaced national debt for the most part, other than the financial crisis.  But we just went from bad to worse.  Nowadays, folks don't seem to care that GDP is meh and debt is the way to get more rich.  I very much feel that we are in the final throes of an instant gratification society and that this won't end well.  We hardly have the stomach to try to balance the budget, now that hard times are upon us.

You say that you invest internationally, but there aren't many other places that had the US patent system and 'brain power' advantages of the US.  I think the global system is on a decline, until the reigns are fully handed over to whatever is next.  Maybe China, but they don't have the dynamism that the US had yet.  I think we are in for a whole lot of stagnation as the engine of the global economy sputters and chokes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 28, 2020, 09:49:31 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 27, 2020, 06:05:54 PM

- SNIP -

I'm responding at the point that I bolded.  I'll read the rest, but honestly, this is not in touch with reality.  In the 1990's, the US budget finally started  running a surplus and GDP was still growing.  We slipped in to some deficits and had bubbles burst, but the US GDP could have outpaced national debt for the most part, other than the financial crisis.  But we just went from bad to worse.  Nowadays, folks don't seem to care that GDP is meh and debt is the way to get more rich.  I very much feel that we are in the final throes of an instant gratification society and that this won't end well.  We hardly have the stomach to try to balance the budget, now that hard times are upon us.

You say that you invest internationally, but there aren't many other places that had the US patent system and 'brain power' advantages of the US.  I think the global system is on a decline, until the reigns are fully handed over to whatever is next.  Maybe China, but they don't have the dynamism that the US had yet.  I think we are in for a whole lot of stagnation as the engine of the global economy sputters and chokes.

Two cents worth - soon to be three with the upcoming inflation.

I believe you are correct with the exception of your belief regarding the Chinese.  When I was in high school, they were still mainly an agrarian country farming with Oxen.  What the Chinese has done in a generation or maybe two is simply phenomenal.  The US meanwhile has been living on its seed corn.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 28, 2020, 02:18:57 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 28, 2020, 09:49:31 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 27, 2020, 06:05:54 PM

- SNIP -

I'm responding at the point that I bolded.  I'll read the rest, but honestly, this is not in touch with reality.  In the 1990's, the US budget finally started  running a surplus and GDP was still growing.  We slipped in to some deficits and had bubbles burst, but the US GDP could have outpaced national debt for the most part, other than the financial crisis.  But we just went from bad to worse.  Nowadays, folks don't seem to care that GDP is meh and debt is the way to get more rich.  I very much feel that we are in the final throes of an instant gratification society and that this won't end well.  We hardly have the stomach to try to balance the budget, now that hard times are upon us.

You say that you invest internationally, but there aren't many other places that had the US patent system and 'brain power' advantages of the US.  I think the global system is on a decline, until the reigns are fully handed over to whatever is next.  Maybe China, but they don't have the dynamism that the US had yet.  I think we are in for a whole lot of stagnation as the engine of the global economy sputters and chokes.

Two cents worth - soon to be three with the upcoming inflation.

I believe you are correct with the exception of your belief regarding the Chinese.  When I was in high school, they were still mainly an agrarian country farming with Oxen.  What the Chinese has done in a generation or maybe two is simply phenomenal.  The US meanwhile has been living on its seed corn.

I don’t want to be right, but when you paint yourself into a corner...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on September 28, 2020, 05:12:55 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 27, 2020, 06:05:54 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 27, 2020, 05:48:50 PM

I’ve been hearing this argument my entire adult life and you know what? The malaise hasn’t happened yet. The Government has been spending to beat the band for decades now. The national debt hasn’t been a problem from the perspective of being able to service the debt. It has been a problem in that the spending has tended to benefit the already ultra-wealthy at the expense of everyone else. Not that surprising when you have a multimillionaire Congress and a never ending  succession of corporatist presidents.
.

I'm responding at the point that I bolded.  I'll read the rest, but honestly, this is not in touch with reality.  In the 1990's, the US budget finally started  running a surplus and GDP was still growing.  We slipped in to some deficits and had bubbles burst, but the US GDP could have outpaced national debt for the most part, other than the financial crisis.  But we just went from bad to worse.  Nowadays, folks don't seem to care that GDP is meh and debt is the way to get more rich.  I very much feel that we are in the final throes of an instant gratification society and that this won't end well.  We hardly have the stomach to try to balance the budget, now that hard times are upon us.

You say that you invest internationally, but there aren't many other places that had the US patent system and 'brain power' advantages of the US.  I think the global system is on a decline, until the reigns are fully handed over to whatever is next.  Maybe China, but they don't have the dynamism that the US had yet.  I think we are in for a whole lot of stagnation as the engine of the global economy sputters and chokes.

Thanks for the comments.

We have different frames of reference. I’m older and remember the late 70s and 80s. The Balanced Budget Amendment was big news in the early 80s as was Gramm-Rudman. It was mostly political cover for the profligate spending under the Reagan administration. A cynical ploy, really. And then there was the 92 election where Bush the elder lost in part because of the entry of Ross Perot into the race on a balanced budget platform.  The very brief period of almost balancing the budget in the 90s was in contrast to the norms since the 1930s.

I think that you’re dead on in noting the change since the GFC. Personally, I think the GFC was the seminal event in our history of the last 50 years. It was really the point where we cast aside even the pretext of our governance being for anything other than the benefit of the plutocrats. I think it logical that people who see and experience that to conclude that “I might as well get mine.“ Unfortunately what’s logical and understandable at the micro level is devastating at the macro level as that community sense shared sacrifice and mutual goals have gone out the window.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 28, 2020, 09:30:07 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 28, 2020, 05:12:55 PM

- KER SNIP -

You say that you invest internationally, but there aren't many other places that had the US patent system and 'brain power' advantages of the US.  I think the global system is on a decline, until the reigns are fully handed over to whatever is next.  Maybe China, but they don't have the dynamism that the US had yet.  I think we are in for a whole lot of stagnation as the engine of the global economy sputters and chokes.

Thanks for the comments.

We have different frames of reference. I’m older and remember the late 70s and 80s. The Balanced Budget Amendment was big news in the early 80s as was Gramm-Rudman. It was mostly political cover for the profligate spending under the Reagan administration. A cynical ploy, really. And then there was the 92 election where Bush the elder lost in part because of the entry of Ross Perot into the race on a balanced budget platform.  The very brief period of almost balancing the budget in the 90s was in contrast to the norms since the 1930s.

I think that you’re dead on in noting the change since the GFC. Personally, I think the GFC was the seminal event in our history of the last 50 years. It was really the point where we cast aside even the pretext of our governance being for anything other than the benefit of the plutocrats. I think it logical that people who see and experience that to conclude that “I might as well get mine.“ Unfortunately what’s logical and understandable at the micro level is devastating at the macro level as that community sense shared sacrifice and mutual goals have gone out the window.
[/quote]

Another person who is almost dead on.  However, I wish to point out that there seem to be a lot of people gifted with altruism posting here.  Have you noticed it?  These folks have made their piles and now wish to help others.  There are exceptions to the rampant greed herein.

I also think the greed started about the time of Ronald Reagan.  I do believe the statistics will bear me out.  This is when the wages seemed to no longer be increasing in terms of the cost of living for the average person.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on September 29, 2020, 04:20:26 AM

Quote from: pecunia on September 28, 2020, 09:30:07 PM

Another person who is almost dead on.  However, I wish to point out that there seem to be a lot of people gifted with altruism posting here.  Have you noticed it?  These folks have made their piles and now wish to help others.  There are exceptions to the rampant greed herein.

I also think the greed started about the time of Ronald Reagan.  I do believe the statistics will bear me out.  This is when the wages seemed to no longer be increasing in terms of the cost of living for the average person.

There are a lot of really good people here who I enjoy interacting with. And I’m not at all indifferent to the trends I’m seeing and noting. I just differ on identifying root causes and how they should be responded to, if at all.

History and cultural changes don’t operate cleanly. There are always exceptions, counter-trends, and people who decline to go along.

As for the Reagan years, yeah I do think that’s the point when greed became culturally acceptable. It’s also the point when it became fashionable to destroy organized labor, which in the long run I think has been more devastating. That said I don’t buy into this line that the regimes representing one faction are decidedly more wicked in contrast to the other.  And therein lies the dilemma; most people in our society (and in these forums specifically) default to explaining what they see through a political lens rather than a cultural or economic one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 29, 2020, 09:47:18 PM

After watching that shitshow debate, I'm glad I've saved every freaking dollar I have.  I'm also glad as Hell I'm still working.  How did we get to such a point. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on September 29, 2020, 11:03:27 PM

@Bateaux ... this is the first comment I’ve seen that makes me actually want to go watch the s$&*show.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on September 30, 2020, 07:03:14 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 29, 2020, 09:47:18 PM

After watching that shitshow debate, I'm glad I've saved every freaking dollar I have.  I'm also glad as Hell I'm still working.  How did we get to such a point.

Nikki was right! (See below)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on September 30, 2020, 07:06:50 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on September 29, 2020, 11:03:27 PM

@Bateaux ... this is the first comment I’ve seen that makes me actually want to go watch the s$&*show.

I get criticized by folks who think I’m too negative towards partisan politics and elections. That’s not true! I think it’s the best gallows humor we‘ve got going!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on September 30, 2020, 07:08:01 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 29, 2020, 09:47:18 PM

After watching that shitshow debate, I'm glad I've saved every freaking dollar I have.  I'm also glad as Hell I'm still working.  How did we get to such a point.

Because too many people believed that jackass con man and they voted for him.  They apparently still do, God help us.   That's why.   That and 30 years worth of right wing poison propaganda spewing out of proto-alt-right infotainers that preceded the election.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on September 30, 2020, 09:23:35 AM

Its my last day of work - almost exactly 29 years to the day since I started work at my first job. Even though I am so done with work, it was a bit harder than I expected as I have been making bank for the past ten years. It still feels a bit unreal after so many years of employment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 30, 2020, 09:30:29 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 30, 2020, 09:23:35 AM

Its my last day of work - almost exactly 29 years to the day since I started work at my first job. Even though I am so done with work, it was a bit harder than I expected as I have been making bank for the past ten years. It still feels a bit unreal after so many years of employment.

@2sk22 - Congratulations! 

@ Swordguy - "Because too many people believed that jackass con man and they voted for him.  They apparently still do, God help us.   That's why.   That and 30 years worth of right wing poison propaganda spewing out of proto-alt-right infotainers that preceded the election."

I think you are dead on right.  Trump has made many of us see the power of Right Wing propaganda.  Joe Goebbels sees that stuff and has a big smile.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 01, 2020, 03:29:49 AM

Quote from: pecunia on September 30, 2020, 09:30:29 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 30, 2020, 09:23:35 AM

Its my last day of work - almost exactly 29 years to the day since I started work at my first job. Even though I am so done with work, it was a bit harder than I expected as I have been making bank for the past ten years. It still feels a bit unreal after so many years of employment.

@2sk22 - Congratulations! 

@ Swordguy - "Because too many people believed that jackass con man and they voted for him.  They apparently still do, God help us.   That's why.   That and 30 years worth of right wing poison propaganda spewing out of proto-alt-right infotainers that preceded the election."

I think you are dead on right.  Trump has made many of us see the power of Right Wing propaganda.  Joe Goebbels sees that stuff and has a big smile.

I will say I rushed home and watched the Debate with all 3 of my Sons 21, 16 and 15 and I was embarrassed as a parent that they had to witness that. To have to explain to them the behavior and disrespect and how the World is laughing at us just felt like a gut punch. Being older and having lived through alot of presidents, debates etc... Shitshow doesnt even begin to explain what had happened BUT more importantly to me is I want folks to come together again and not feel this thing in the air that just because I might disagree with you we cant be friends anymore. Thats the sad part of all this and if it doesnt change and in a hurry this country is going to be in trouble. But having said that as a whole we have been in bad places before and come through it so we just need to pull together and do it again. Can and will we without a Civil war or to much damage is the million dollar question

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on October 01, 2020, 08:48:50 AM

Didn't watch the debate.  Won't.

It seems to me that the Tea Party set the stage for the current political stalemate.  They came in with a decidedly NO COMPROMISE strategy.  This, of course led to gridlock.  Today, the Congress and Senate would not even agree that it's Thursday.  I have no idea what the solution is besides voting out all the bums.  Problem is, most people think their bum is fine....it's all the other bums that need to be gone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on October 01, 2020, 02:44:54 PM

Another one who skipped the debate.  What's the point?  I don't vote.  If I wanted to watch clowns, I'd buy the tickets and go to the circus instead. 

I wanted to address an earlier post about politics needing to change in the US.  It's not going to change absent an external factor or significant change in the culture.  The political duopoly that runs the US has run it for the last 170 plus years is not going to change on their own. There's no incentive. If they do nothing, they still keep power.  If they're completely incompetent, they still keep power. If they're completely malevolent twits, they still keep power.

Our duopoly is very, very good at making sure that no other faction is able to compete and that they and only they have political power. 

To draw an analogy, if there were only two brands of beer sold in a country for 170 plus years with no competing brands allowed, what would you expect the beer to taste like?  There's no incentive to improve the quality of the beer.  And so long as people continue to line up to buy whatever swill they're peddling, there's no reason to think about changing. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 01, 2020, 08:18:29 PM

Thank goodness for microbrews...

Do you realize what an imposition it is to travel outside of the PNW? I mean, it’s better than it was 5 or 10 years ago, but most of the country doesn’t realize how limited their beer options are.

Funny story... several years ago, a 2nd cousin was getting married. Another second cousin and her boyfriend flew in from across the country. Having heard he was interested in beer, we had a selection available and put several out on the counter for him to select. He said, sort of sheepishly, “I’m sorry, but I’m interested in local beers. Are any of these local?”

I replied, “Um, how local?”  We had a range from our local county to 2-3 counties away. He was pretty funny. He had landed in beer heaven and didn’t even know it!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 02, 2020, 02:54:49 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 01, 2020, 08:18:29 PM

Thank goodness for microbrews...

Do you realize what an imposition it is to travel outside of the PNW? I mean, it’s better than it was 5 or 10 years ago, but most of the country doesn’t realize how limited their beer options are.

Funny story... several years ago, a 2nd cousin was getting married. Another second cousin and her boyfriend flew in from across the country. Having heard he was interested in beer, we had a selection available and put several out on the counter for him to select. He said, sort of sheepishly, “I’m sorry, but I’m interested in local beers. Are any of these local?”

I replied, “Um, how local?”  We had a range from our local county to 2-3 counties away. He was pretty funny. He had landed in beer heaven and didn’t even know it!
[/quote

Not quite at the PNW level but even here in NJ, there are a couple of excellent microbreweries within my county alone. Lots of decent choices in the New York City area (pre-covid at least). There was a genuinely amazing brewery in Brooklyn right across the street from my office - this was one of my main motivators to go in to my office periodically :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 02, 2020, 03:19:53 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on October 01, 2020, 02:44:54 PM

Another one who skipped the debate.  What's the point?  I don't vote.  If I wanted to watch clowns, I'd buy the tickets and go to the circus instead. 

I wanted to address an earlier post about politics needing to change in the US.  It's not going to change absent an external factor or significant change in the culture.  The political duopoly that runs the US has run it for the last 170 plus years is not going to change on their own. There's no incentive. If they do nothing, they still keep power.  If they're completely incompetent, they still keep power. If they're completely malevolent twits, they still keep power.

Our duopoly is very, very good at making sure that no other faction is able to compete and that they and only they have political power. 

To draw an analogy, if there were only two brands of beer sold in a country for 170 plus years with no competing brands allowed, what would you expect the beer to taste like?  There's no incentive to improve the quality of the beer.  And so long as people continue to line up to buy whatever swill they're peddling, there's no reason to think about changing.

Thats why we really do now than ever need a 3rd or 4rth beer! No one has ever gotten the traction in the past or if they do they fall behind one of the other two current beers. We truly need away to launch an independent that will go the distance. I totally agree with your analogy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 02, 2020, 07:25:09 AM

There is a beer in Wisconsin called Spotted Cow.  You can't get it where I live.  The stuff is great.  When this Covid thing dies down, it may be time to become a beer tourist.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roboturner on October 02, 2020, 11:06:01 AM

Quote from: pecunia on October 02, 2020, 07:25:09 AM

There is a beer in Wisconsin called Spotted Cow.  You can't get it where I live.  The stuff is great.  When this Covid thing dies down, it may be time to become a beer tourist.

+1 for spotted cow!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on October 02, 2020, 03:26:54 PM

So let's continue with the beer analogy. 

I think we'd all agree that in this analogous world where there is a 170 year old beer duopoly and only two brands of beer sold that it would be much better to have a third competing beer brand.  Even better to have a fourth!  And happily, every now and then a new beer company comes in and wants to compete. 

Well, that's a problem for our beer duopoly.  They might disagree on some things, and have marketing that would lead you to believe that they're vigorously competing.  But one thing the beer duopoly absolutely agrees on is that there should be no other competing brands of beer.  And over the space of 170 years, the beer duopoly become very adept at eliminating any potential competition.  As it turns out, there are rules about becoming a beer company that must be followed before you're allowed to compete.  Oh and by the way, the beer duopoly wrote those rules.  So let's look at the rules more closely.  Any new beer company that wants to sell beer has to petition thousands of beer drinkers to be allowed to sell a new brand of beer.  And any new beer company has to demonstrate that it can maintain at least a 5% market share in order to be allowed to stock their new beer on the shelves.  We don't want to confuse the beer consumer with too many choices, now do we?  Oh but it gets better.  If a new beer company wants to distribute its beer, it has to use a beer distributor.  And guess who owns the only beer distributors?  None other than our beer duopoly.  And guess who employs the only people who are allowed to sell beer?  As you can see, becoming a successful new beer company in this sort of environment is almost impossible.  And of course the quality of the beer sold by the beer duopoly just gets worse over time.

Now, beer drinkers want improvements.  And they'll send letters to the beer duopoly. They'll march in the streets. And they'll get all excited to participate in a once every four year market survey that the beer duopoly grudgingly submits to.  But the beer drinkers just can't seem to fathom why the quality of the beer just seems to get worse and worse.  And they come back, like clockwork, to buy whatever beer that the duopoly is selling.

Now in our analogous world, there are some people who see the duopoly for what it is. Some complain about it, and some try to start new beer companies.  And there are others simply stop drinking.     

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on October 02, 2020, 03:43:24 PM

It can be done. Look at Turkey. They didn’t want the Kurds in parliament, so they wrote several rules. No party can have any seats in parliament unless they win more than 10% of the national vote. If a party wins less than 10% of the national vote, all the seats they would have won are given to the candidate who would have come next in the election.

For many years Kurdish candidates ran as independents (who can retain the seat they won). But, one year, the Kurds decided that they actually might have enough national votes to compete as a party, and they won 14% of the national vote.

Many other countries have done it. They have changed from authoritarian rule to being democracies. Many democracies have had gerrymanders and have overcome them. While authoritarianism is currently increasing, and democracy is reducing world wide, twenty years ago the opposite was happening. But it takes citizens who are prepared to stand up for democracy and to take responsibility for helping democracy to flourish.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on October 02, 2020, 05:08:19 PM

Quote from: deborah on October 02, 2020, 03:43:24 PM

Many other countries have done it. They have changed from authoritarian rule to being democracies. Many democracies have had gerrymanders and have overcome them. While authoritarianism is currently increasing, and democracy is reducing world wide, twenty years ago the opposite was happening. But it takes citizens who are prepared to stand up for democracy and to take responsibility for helping democracy to flourish.

170 years of history says otherwise. Many have tried, many have failed. And in any case putting effort into it is putting means above ends.

The unifying idea of 244 years ago was liberty and self governance. OK. That’s great. I like it! So self-govern already. Or have we sunk to the point that we believe we must have people like the current political “luminaries” to lead us around by the nose?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 03, 2020, 02:26:40 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on October 02, 2020, 11:06:01 AM

Quote from: pecunia on October 02, 2020, 07:25:09 AM

There is a beer in Wisconsin called Spotted Cow.  You can't get it where I live.  The stuff is great.  When this Covid thing dies down, it may be time to become a beer tourist.

+1 for spotted cow!

Quote from: pecunia on October 02, 2020, 07:25:09 AM

There is a beer in Wisconsin called Spotted Cow.  You can't get it where I live.  The stuff is great.  When this Covid thing dies down, it may be time to become a beer tourist.

+2 We always have it in our fridge. We have well over 30 Micro breweries just in my area and ones that have been around a bit

https://www.sprecherbrewery.com/
https://lakefrontbrewery.com/

Lake Front is probably the most popular but many many good ones.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 04, 2020, 06:38:41 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 01, 2020, 08:18:29 PM

Thank goodness for microbrews...

Do you realize what an imposition it is to travel outside of the PNW? I mean, it’s better than it was 5 or 10 years ago, but most of the country doesn’t realize how limited their beer options are.

Funny story... several years ago, a 2nd cousin was getting married. Another second cousin and her boyfriend flew in from across the country. Having heard he was interested in beer, we had a selection available and put several out on the counter for him to select. He said, sort of sheepishly, “I’m sorry, but I’m interested in local beers. Are any of these local?”

I replied, “Um, how local?”  We had a range from our local county to 2-3 counties away. He was pretty funny. He had landed in beer heaven and didn’t even know it!

You’ve obviously never been in Michigan then.  Um how local, walk, bike ride or less than a half hour car trip?

Also I have one spotted cow left from my last business trip to Wisconsin.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 04, 2020, 10:29:24 AM

True, I haven’t been to Michigan since before I was drinking beer. My reference points are Wisconsin and Minnesota, and I have to admit, the beer scenes there have really changed and improved in the last 10 to 15 years. Still, I haven’t seen the variety and quality of beers in WI and MN that we have in the PNW.  Is Michigan different?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on October 04, 2020, 12:38:43 PM

If you want awesome beers, Virginia holds its own. There are roughly 10 breweries in a 4-5 mile radius of me. Lots of good and eclectic choices.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on October 04, 2020, 06:30:55 PM

NC is loaded with plenty of good breweries too. 


It's actually become a problem for me.  I figured out which beers I like & with so many brands & flavors on the market now it can be hard to find the ones I like.  I guess you'd call that "too much of a good thing"! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 04, 2020, 09:09:08 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 04, 2020, 10:29:24 AM

True, I haven’t been to Michigan since before I was drinking beer. My reference points are Wisconsin and Minnesota, and I have to admit, the beer scenes there have really changed and improved in the last 10 to 15 years. Still, I haven’t seen the variety and quality of beers in WI and MN that we have in the PNW.  Is Michigan different?

Grand Rapids, Mich. was apparently voted Beer City USA.

https://www.experiencegr.com/things-to-do/beer-city/ (https://www.experiencegr.com/things-to-do/beer-city/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Trifle on October 05, 2020, 06:56:22 AM

Asheville, NC also labels itself "Beer City, USA."  https://www.exploreasheville.com/stories/post/asheville-beer-history/

There are currently ~50 breweries, and a slew of mighty fine beers.  We moved here from Wisconsin five years ago and thought we would be taking a step down in terms of local beer quality.  We were thrilled to be so wrong.     

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on October 05, 2020, 07:21:18 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 27, 2020, 06:05:54 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 27, 2020, 05:48:50 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 27, 2020, 04:54:48 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 18, 2020, 04:35:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 18, 2020, 12:55:52 PM

This year has been a catastrophe in terms of 'spreading it around' though.  Folks like Bezos and Musk are sucking up billions per day (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/bezos-record-multibillion-dollar-net-worth-gain-bloomberg.html#:~:text=Power%20Players-,Jeff%20Bezos%20added%20%2413%20billion%20to%20his%20net%20worth,day%E2%80%94and%20that's%20a%20record&text=Jeff%20Bezos%20had%20a%20pretty,on%20Monday%2C%20according%20to%20Bloomberg.), while 'regular folks' manage to make rent payments.  The rich don't have anything left to soak up all the money sloshing around in their accounts, and the poor are drying out and starting to feel the drought.  At some point, the government will have to rely on the economy actually paying for the country to stay solvent, instead of borrowing and spending trillions with no end in sight.

OK. I’ll bite. Why does the economy have to pay at all? Our national debt to GDP ratio is somewhere north of 107%.  Compare that to Japan at above 235%. 
...

I keep hearing this refrain and can't help but wonder, do you want America to follow Japan's Nikkei Index post-1990?  That's 30 years of break even, after a really terrible crash?  Sure, Japan isn't looking as bad as Greece on the surface, but it's a homogenous culture.  On the flip side, there is Norway, similarly homogenous, with surplus for years. 

America cannot continue to borrow as it has indefinitely without seriously knee-capping its options to continue to borrow.  We are far from a stable, homogenous society, in case you haven't noticed lately.

Given that I try to keep my exposure to US equities low, I can’t say that it much matters to me what US equity markets do, other than the US markets have a nasty tendency to correlate with other global markets. But I don’t think that’s the real concern here. I think it’s more of a concern that the US won’t be able to sell its debt at favorable terms and that the US will somehow, in some way suffer some horrible malaise as a result of profligate state spending.

I’ve been hearing this argument my entire adult life and you know what? The malaise hasn’t happened yet. The Government has been spending to beat the band for decades now. The national debt hasn’t been a problem from the perspective of being able to service the debt. It has been a problem in that the spending has tended to benefit the already ultra-wealthy at the expense of everyone else. Not that surprising when you have a multimillionaire Congress and a never ending  succession of corporatist presidents.

What concerns me though is this logic that says that the national debt is like personal debt. It isn’t. Personal debt has to repaid at some point, public debt doesn’t. And it never will be. But what ends up happening is that well meaning people in their zeal to try to repay what can never be repaid start coming up will all sorts of not-so-bright ideas to pay it off. Like raising taxes on the ultra-wealthy. Sounds nice! It’ll never happen. Part of the reason the ultra-wealthy are that way is they have the systems and accountants and lawyers and, let’s face it, politicians to ensure that they will never pay more than a token amount. What a tax hike for the ultra-wealthy really means is that everyone else’s taxes get jacked up.

And when taxes don’t work, then we get into the really destructive ideas like selling off public assets to pay off the debt. And guess who will be buying them at fire sale prices?

The national debt is just one of those nonissues that we can largely ignore. Yeah, there probably is a point where issuing more debt won’t work. We’re not there. Given that we’re experiencing negligible inflation, we’re nowhere near that ceiling.

I'm responding at the point that I bolded.  I'll read the rest, but honestly, this is not in touch with reality.  In the 1990's, the US budget finally started  running a surplus and GDP was still growing.  We slipped in to some deficits and had bubbles burst, but the US GDP could have outpaced national debt for the most part, other than the financial crisis.  But we just went from bad to worse.  Nowadays, folks don't seem to care that GDP is meh and debt is the way to get more rich.  I very much feel that we are in the final throes of an instant gratification society and that this won't end well.  We hardly have the stomach to try to balance the budget, now that hard times are upon us.

You say that you invest internationally, but there aren't many other places that had the US patent system and 'brain power' advantages of the US.  I think the global system is on a decline, until the reigns are fully handed over to whatever is next.  Maybe China, but they don't have the dynamism that the US had yet.  I think we are in for a whole lot of stagnation as the engine of the global economy sputters and chokes.

Can we talk about this more? 

Back when I studied economics, it was pretty standard view that some debt was OK but too much debt was bad.  Debt denominated in your own currency was safer, but there was a risk of hyperinflation, which does damage the economy because it makes pricing unpredictable and so throws off allocations of good and services, as well as because in general instability damages economic growth.  Now there is something called Modern Monetary Theory which I haven't had time to study but seems to me to basically be like Dr. Strangelove -- " How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb." 

I fully admit I don't understand it.  Instead I use general rules of thumb and wisdom I've picked up along the way, including:

-- Just because a bunch of the cultural elite that live in one part of the world in one particular time and place happen to believe something doesn't make it true.  They are always swayed by the intellectual fad of the day and if you look at the arc of history these ideas go in and out of fashion.  So the argument from authority, "this guy has a Nobel Prize and he believes it" doesn't always work for me.  This is especially true for any sort of theory that can't be tested in a lab, like MMT. 

-- People who say "this time, it's different" are usually wrong.

-- "You can run along for a long time, but sooner or later God is gonna cut you down." -- Johnny Cash  (Secular economic translation:  The negative consequences of dumb behavior may not be felt until far in the future, but that doesn't mean they aren't going to be felt.)

My instinct is that the developed world is going to look up and realize that huge piles of debt and declining worker to dependent ratios have put them in a bad spot, and so at some point our day of reckoning is going to come even if the powers that be aren't too worried about it now.  But there's very little... actual math or proof or whatnot in my analysis, so I leave it open for those better versed in the subject to explain where I've gone off track.

Corollary is that since we don't know how the fallout will occur or when, what do we do?  My best answers are pretty simple.  Don't overextend yourself with debt, invest globally, stay invested because you don't know the hour of when the other shoe may drop and the market can be irrational longer than you can be solvent, have the resources to ride out a storm for a few years without selling at the bottom, realize a portion of your wealth is illusory and is probably going to disappear at some point, be a little more liberal on spending on durable goods that will retain their value (or are just really well made and will last a long time -- buy them now and you can use them later when things are nutty), cultivate a broad range of skills so you can make (and, through your own efforts, save) money in various economic climates. 
 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 05, 2020, 08:00:40 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on October 05, 2020, 07:21:18 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 27, 2020, 06:05:54 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 27, 2020, 05:48:50 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 27, 2020, 04:54:48 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 18, 2020, 04:35:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 18, 2020, 12:55:52 PM

This year has been a catastrophe in terms of 'spreading it around' though.  Folks like Bezos and Musk are sucking up billions per day (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/bezos-record-multibillion-dollar-net-worth-gain-bloomberg.html#:~:text=Power%20Players-,Jeff%20Bezos%20added%20%2413%20billion%20to%20his%20net%20worth,day%E2%80%94and%20that's%20a%20record&text=Jeff%20Bezos%20had%20a%20pretty,on%20Monday%2C%20according%20to%20Bloomberg.), while 'regular folks' manage to make rent payments.  The rich don't have anything left to soak up all the money sloshing around in their accounts, and the poor are drying out and starting to feel the drought.  At some point, the government will have to rely on the economy actually paying for the country to stay solvent, instead of borrowing and spending trillions with no end in sight.

OK. I’ll bite. Why does the economy have to pay at all? Our national debt to GDP ratio is somewhere north of 107%.  Compare that to Japan at above 235%. 
...

I keep hearing this refrain and can't help but wonder, do you want America to follow Japan's Nikkei Index post-1990?  That's 30 years of break even, after a really terrible crash?  Sure, Japan isn't looking as bad as Greece on the surface, but it's a homogenous culture.  On the flip side, there is Norway, similarly homogenous, with surplus for years. 

America cannot continue to borrow as it has indefinitely without seriously knee-capping its options to continue to borrow.  We are far from a stable, homogenous society, in case you haven't noticed lately.

Given that I try to keep my exposure to US equities low, I can’t say that it much matters to me what US equity markets do, other than the US markets have a nasty tendency to correlate with other global markets. But I don’t think that’s the real concern here. I think it’s more of a concern that the US won’t be able to sell its debt at favorable terms and that the US will somehow, in some way suffer some horrible malaise as a result of profligate state spending.

I’ve been hearing this argument my entire adult life and you know what? The malaise hasn’t happened yet. The Government has been spending to beat the band for decades now. The national debt hasn’t been a problem from the perspective of being able to service the debt. It has been a problem in that the spending has tended to benefit the already ultra-wealthy at the expense of everyone else. Not that surprising when you have a multimillionaire Congress and a never ending  succession of corporatist presidents.

What concerns me though is this logic that says that the national debt is like personal debt. It isn’t. Personal debt has to repaid at some point, public debt doesn’t. And it never will be. But what ends up happening is that well meaning people in their zeal to try to repay what can never be repaid start coming up will all sorts of not-so-bright ideas to pay it off. Like raising taxes on the ultra-wealthy. Sounds nice! It’ll never happen. Part of the reason the ultra-wealthy are that way is they have the systems and accountants and lawyers and, let’s face it, politicians to ensure that they will never pay more than a token amount. What a tax hike for the ultra-wealthy really means is that everyone else’s taxes get jacked up.

And when taxes don’t work, then we get into the really destructive ideas like selling off public assets to pay off the debt. And guess who will be buying them at fire sale prices?

The national debt is just one of those nonissues that we can largely ignore. Yeah, there probably is a point where issuing more debt won’t work. We’re not there. Given that we’re experiencing negligible inflation, we’re nowhere near that ceiling.

I'm responding at the point that I bolded.  I'll read the rest, but honestly, this is not in touch with reality.  In the 1990's, the US budget finally started  running a surplus and GDP was still growing.  We slipped in to some deficits and had bubbles burst, but the US GDP could have outpaced national debt for the most part, other than the financial crisis.  But we just went from bad to worse.  Nowadays, folks don't seem to care that GDP is meh and debt is the way to get more rich.  I very much feel that we are in the final throes of an instant gratification society and that this won't end well.  We hardly have the stomach to try to balance the budget, now that hard times are upon us.

You say that you invest internationally, but there aren't many other places that had the US patent system and 'brain power' advantages of the US.  I think the global system is on a decline, until the reigns are fully handed over to whatever is next.  Maybe China, but they don't have the dynamism that the US had yet.  I think we are in for a whole lot of stagnation as the engine of the global economy sputters and chokes.

Can we talk about this more? 

Back when I studied economics, it was pretty standard view that some debt was OK but too much debt was bad.  Debt denominated in your own currency was safer, but there was a risk of hyperinflation, which does damage the economy because it makes pricing unpredictable and so throws off allocations of good and services, as well as because in general instability damages economic growth.  Now there is something called Modern Monetary Theory which I haven't had time to study but seems to me to basically be like Dr. Strangelove -- " How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb." 

I fully admit I don't understand it.  Instead I use general rules of thumb and wisdom I've picked up along the way, including:

-- Just because a bunch of the cultural elite that live in one part of the world in one particular time and place happen to believe something doesn't make it true.  They are always swayed by the intellectual fad of the day and if you look at the arc of history these ideas go in and out of fashion.  So the argument from authority, "this guy has a Nobel Prize and he believes it" doesn't always work for me.  This is especially true for any sort of theory that can't be tested in a lab, like MMT. 

-- People who say "this time, it's different" are usually wrong.

-- "You can run along for a long time, but sooner or later God is gonna cut you down." -- Johnny Cash  (Secular economic translation:  The negative consequences of dumb behavior may not be felt until far in the future, but that doesn't mean they aren't going to be felt.)

My instinct is that the developed world is going to look up and realize that huge piles of debt and declining worker to dependent ratios have put them in a bad spot, and so at some point our day of reckoning is going to come even if the powers that be aren't too worried about it now.  But there's very little... actual math or proof or whatnot in my analysis, so I leave it open for those better versed in the subject to explain where I've gone off track.

Corollary is that since we don't know how the fallout will occur or when, what do we do?  My best answers are pretty simple.  Don't overextend yourself with debt, invest globally, stay invested because you don't know the hour of when the other shoe may drop and the market can be irrational longer than you can be solvent, have the resources to ride out a storm for a few years without selling at the bottom, realize a portion of your wealth is illusory and is probably going to disappear at some point, be a little more liberal on spending on durable goods that will retain their value (or are just really well made and will last a long time -- buy them now and you can use them later when things are nutty), cultivate a broad range of skills so you can make (and, through your own efforts, save) money in various economic climates.

@LWYRUP - I believe you are right. 

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

I remember when I was a teenager.  A high school teacher had a big smile on his face and said something to the effect that the kids always think that what they've got is different than what their parents had.  I think this applies to this economics stuff.

You can't make something out of nothing.  You can lie and cheat with all sorts of mathematics and statistics.  In the end, I don't think it will end up different this time around.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 05, 2020, 08:45:41 AM

Quote from: LWYRUP on October 05, 2020, 07:21:18 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 27, 2020, 06:05:54 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 27, 2020, 05:48:50 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 27, 2020, 04:54:48 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on September 18, 2020, 04:35:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 18, 2020, 12:55:52 PM

Snip

OK. I’ll bite. Why does the economy have to pay at all? Our national debt to GDP ratio is somewhere north of 107%.  Compare that to Japan at above 235%. 
...

I keep hearing this refrain and can't help but wonder, do you want America to follow Japan's Nikkei Index post-1990?  That's 30 years of break even, after a really terrible crash?  Sure, Japan isn't looking as bad as Greece on the surface, but it's a homogenous culture.  On the flip side, there is Norway, similarly homogenous, with surplus for years. 

America cannot continue to borrow as it has indefinitely without seriously knee-capping its options to continue to borrow.  We are far from a stable, homogenous society, in case you haven't noticed lately.

Snip

Snip

Can we talk about this more? 

Back when I studied economics, it was pretty standard view that some debt was OK but too much debt was bad.  Debt denominated in your own currency was safer, but there was a risk of hyperinflation, which does damage the economy because it makes pricing unpredictable and so throws off allocations of good and services, as well as because in general instability damages economic growth.  Now there is something called Modern Monetary Theory which I haven't had time to study but seems to me to basically be like Dr. Strangelove -- " How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb." 

I fully admit I don't understand it.  Instead I use general rules of thumb and wisdom I've picked up along the way, including:

-- Just because a bunch of the cultural elite that live in one part of the world in one particular time and place happen to believe something doesn't make it true.  They are always swayed by the intellectual fad of the day and if you look at the arc of history these ideas go in and out of fashion.  So the argument from authority, "this guy has a Nobel Prize and he believes it" doesn't always work for me.  This is especially true for any sort of theory that can't be tested in a lab, like MMT. 

-- People who say "this time, it's different" are usually wrong.

-- "You can run along for a long time, but sooner or later God is gonna cut you down." -- Johnny Cash  (Secular economic translation:  The negative consequences of dumb behavior may not be felt until far in the future, but that doesn't mean they aren't going to be felt.)

My instinct is that the developed world is going to look up and realize that huge piles of debt and declining worker to dependent ratios have put them in a bad spot, and so at some point our day of reckoning is going to come even if the powers that be aren't too worried about it now.  But there's very little... actual math or proof or whatnot in my analysis, so I leave it open for those better versed in the subject to explain where I've gone off track.

Corollary is that since we don't know how the fallout will occur or when, what do we do?  My best answers are pretty simple.  Don't overextend yourself with debt, invest globally, stay invested because you don't know the hour of when the other shoe may drop and the market can be irrational longer than you can be solvent, have the resources to ride out a storm for a few years without selling at the bottom, realize a portion of your wealth is illusory and is probably going to disappear at some point, be a little more liberal on spending on durable goods that will retain their value (or are just really well made and will last a long time -- buy them now and you can use them later when things are nutty), cultivate a broad range of skills so you can make (and, through your own efforts, save) money in various economic climates.

Thing is, economics is more of an art as opposed to a science.  Folks bring up Debt/GDP ratios as though there is a threshold, but I'd argue that every nation and every point in time is a sample size of one.  When the rest of the world thinks that a country will pay back its debt (like Japan), they can continue to issue debt and enjoy low inflation.  When the rest of the world wants nothing to do with the debt (like Venezuela), the world charges exorbitant rates of return or outright avoids it (leading to the country cutting programs and trying to print its way out of insolvency).  A lot depends on how stable the country is, which depends a lot on the leaders.  Trump has been a double-whammy on that front - jacking up national debt faster in both good times and bad, and destabilizing the domestic political landscape.

But yeah, no one knows exactly when the US will hit its limit of international goodwill and reputation.  The Fed is also running up a massive balance sheet which I don't fully understand, I must admit.  It sounds a lot like a company using 'off balance sheet' accounting, which is acceptable until it isn't (e.g. Enron).

I agree with asking yourself what to do, all of our answers will be different.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 06, 2020, 09:13:43 AM

Quote from: pecunia on October 04, 2020, 09:09:08 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 04, 2020, 10:29:24 AM

True, I haven’t been to Michigan since before I was drinking beer. My reference points are Wisconsin and Minnesota, and I have to admit, the beer scenes there have really changed and improved in the last 10 to 15 years. Still, I haven’t seen the variety and quality of beers in WI and MN that we have in the PNW.  Is Michigan different?

Grand Rapids, Mich. was apparently voted Beer City USA.

https://www.experiencegr.com/things-to-do/beer-city/ (https://www.experiencegr.com/things-to-do/beer-city/)

Where Founders was local.  Well it still is but it doesn’t feel the same as it did 10 years ago.  And yes there is a ton of variety.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on October 06, 2020, 11:22:13 AM

this thread seems to have morphed into a political discussion.

let's refocus on the topic for a second - how is everyone doing in their "race"?  i received some long awaited carry/promote last week for a PE fund, which put us above $5.5mm which is hard to believe even as i write it.

$1.0m is in home equity but still.

anyone getting surprises (to the upside) during the pandemic?  i can't help but feel guilty about our good fortune, we are definitely not hurting like many others in the world right now.

are we all a case of the rich getting richer?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 06, 2020, 11:45:47 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on October 06, 2020, 11:22:13 AM

this thread seems to have morphed into a political discussion.

let's refocus on the topic for a second - how is everyone doing in their "race"?  i received some long awaited carry/promote last week for a PE fund, which put us above $5.5mm which is hard to believe even as i write it.

$1.0m is in home equity but still.

anyone getting surprises (to the upside) during the pandemic?  i can't help but feel guilty about our good fortune, we are definitely not hurting like many others in the world right now.

are we all a case of the rich getting richer?

Not so sure I'd agree with your characterization. There has also been much discussion of beer of late, does that make this a boozer thread? I don't think so.

Funny, I think of this thread as a "race" in name only. By any reasonable mustachian metric, we have won our race. This is more of a companionable group amble than an actual race, IMO. You want to see hard work? Go check out the "Race to 10k" thread. We're all past the point where we're actually doing any heavy lifting. Mostly we just watch our investments work for us and talk about other stuff. It's usually a friendly discussion that occasionally includes politics and lots of other things, like beer. Did anyone say beer? Hell, I don't even drink and I find it reasonably interesting.

Congratulations on making your number. When are you pulling the trigger to GTFO?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on October 06, 2020, 12:15:27 PM

As some of you may know (and even remember!), we moved into an awesome home last January and retired a couple years before that.

That gave us 2 mortgages to pay for, the old and the new home.

We sold the old house in August.   

Yesterday we sold the third of three houses we had bought to help folks out. 

I'm sending in the final payment on our mortgage tomorrow when the funds become available in our account.

Between shedding two mortgages, plus taxes, utilities and insurance on 4 houses, we've just cut our annual expenses by over $55,000 a year, plus we don't have renovation expenses on any of those houses (other than anything we choose to do to our new home).

Woot!

Now I feel rich.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 06, 2020, 12:35:31 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 06, 2020, 12:15:27 PM

Now I feel rich.

Net worth often feels abstract but cash definitely feels concrete :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on October 06, 2020, 12:40:37 PM

The race? Funny you bring that up. When I was younger, my goal and the measure of wealth for me was whether or not I could buy any beer I wanted and not care at all about the price. Against that measure, I’m still not wealthy yet. True, I can afford pretty much any beer I want. But I still look at the price tag and will sometimes change my choice accordingly. Or skip it entirely. Either old habits die very hard or I just need to get filthy, stinking rich. Probably a combo of both. So beer is an extremely important subject to discuss!

The rich do seem to get richer unless they get caught out due to a black swan, or they’re way overleveraged.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on October 06, 2020, 12:52:23 PM

Here’s what I want to know. How can I be more stressed and miserable at 46 (spouse 51) with $2.4m NW, yet be as unhappy as I’ve ever been in my life (job stress and money worries). Whereas at 22 and broke I was carefree and not that stressed, even tho I was working hard at a staring salary of $35k a year. I thought that was rich. But now I feel poor at $2.4m.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on October 06, 2020, 12:53:05 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on October 06, 2020, 12:35:31 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 06, 2020, 12:15:27 PM

Now I feel rich.

Net worth often feels abstract but cash definitely feels concrete :-)

Yep!   It does!

I went on Social Security last January but that extra $24k a year was swallowed up by a new, additional mortgage payment.   Plus we were cash flowing renovations on a property, paying the old house mortgage, and covering taxes and insurance and utilities on 3 additional houses.

Now, suddenly, that $55,000+ in annual expenses is no longer in our budget.   Plus we're not renovating properties so there isn't that cash drain either.

I'll be able to start investing again if I want to.    Not sure I want to, I may just let the portfolio grow and otherwise enjoy the money.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 06, 2020, 01:39:29 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on October 06, 2020, 12:52:23 PM

Here’s what I want to know. How can I be more stressed and miserable at 46 (spouse 51) with $2.4m NW, yet be as unhappy as I’ve ever been in my life (job stress and money worries). Whereas at 22 and broke I was carefree and not that stressed, even tho I was working hard at a staring salary of $35k a year. I thought that was rich. But now I feel poor at $2.4m.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hmm.. At 22 I guess it boils down to not knowing enough. I mean probably your sum total of responsibilities was to keep your car going and feed yourself. Healthcare was cheap and probably fully funded by your employer. You probably didn't have much concept of your own mortality or that you would be looking at $1000/month just for HC for you and your spouse when you get to Medicare age.

Life was good.. eat what you want, drink yourself into oblivion at the weekend with no consequences.

Now its a different deal. You know your NW could (although its unlikely) vapourise in a heartbeat. You/spouse could get cancer and easily cost you 10% of your NW for a single course of treatment. You now have to watch what you consume and life probably looks a lot more fragile than it did at 22.

I'm guessing that you also look at how happiness has degraded in 24 years and might be thinking.. "shit, whats it going to be like in another 20 years?"

At 59 (10 days from now) I'm now looking at blood test results that skirt with some upper limits and my Cholesterol numbers require some lifestyle changes.. Which sucks because I already work out and watch my diet!

I look in the mirror and honestly I look like an old man! Some of my friends have died younger than me and its starting to be a question of "who's next?".

The only thing we can do is protect ourselves from financial ruin, which you have done very well. The problem is, a huge bucket O money does very little to prevent really bad things from happening. If Steve Jobs can die from Pancreatic cancer then you I certainly can.

I guess if I have any advice it would be to look at what you're doing and make some changes that make you both happier. I mean at $2.4M do you have to be working in the job you're doing right now? Are you still doing it because it pays well and you can't walk away from that firehose of cash?

How important would that job/income/stress be if either of you received a terminal diagnosis.. I mean this really could happen!

I am also the worlds biggest hypocrite when it comes to OMY so I'm not saying I got it all together.. But I sure don't miss the stress of work!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on October 06, 2020, 02:47:38 PM

Quote from: Dicey on October 06, 2020, 11:45:47 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on October 06, 2020, 11:22:13 AM

this thread seems to have morphed into a political discussion.

let's refocus on the topic for a second - how is everyone doing in their "race"?  i received some long awaited carry/promote last week for a PE fund, which put us above $5.5mm which is hard to believe even as i write it.

$1.0m is in home equity but still.

anyone getting surprises (to the upside) during the pandemic?  i can't help but feel guilty about our good fortune, we are definitely not hurting like many others in the world right now.

are we all a case of the rich getting richer?

Not so sure I'd agree with your characterization. There has also been much discussion of beer of late, does that make this a boozer thread? I don't think so.

Funny, I think of this thread as a "race" in name only. By any reasonable mustachian metric, we have won our race. This is more of a companionable group amble than an actual race, IMO. You want to see hard work? Go check out the "Race to 10k" thread. We're all past the point where we're actually doing any heavy lifting. Mostly we just watch our investments work for us and talk about other stuff. It's usually a friendly discussion that occasionally includes politics and lots of other things, like beer. Did anyone say beer? Hell, I don't even drink and I find it reasonably interesting.

Congratulations on making your number. When are you pulling the trigger to GTFO?

actually i don't really have a number.  i think that's just a way of making it easy to keep doing OMY.  i probably have enough to pull the plug BUT there are still some things i want that i wouldn't be comfortable buying at our current net worth.

i do really want to change jobs though. i think the people i work for are negatively impacting my stress levels, self perception, etc. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on October 06, 2020, 04:56:00 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on October 06, 2020, 12:52:23 PM

Here’s what I want to know. How can I be more stressed and miserable at 46 (spouse 51) with $2.4m NW, yet be as unhappy as I’ve ever been in my life (job stress and money worries). Whereas at 22 and broke I was carefree and not that stressed, even tho I was working hard at a staring salary of $35k a year. I thought that was rich. But now I feel poor at $2.4m.


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What are your money worries, exactly?

I FIREd at 46.  Liquid net worth at the time was less than yours -- lots of equity tied up in a very expensive property at the time.  We sold that when I was 48, bought another expensive but not quite as ridiculously expensive property, and have been living off the cash difference since then.  Plenty in retirement savings to ride the market until the cash runs out (at least 8-10 years from now).  I have had no worries during the recent market gyrations because if things really tank I can use it as a buying opportunity.  No, I'm not optimizing every penny, but I don't have to.  I already have enough. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 06, 2020, 07:04:52 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on October 06, 2020, 12:52:23 PM

Here’s what I want to know. How can I be more stressed and miserable at 46 (spouse 51) with $2.4m NW, yet be as unhappy as I’ve ever been in my life (job stress and money worries). Whereas at 22 and broke I was carefree and not that stressed, even tho I was working hard at a staring salary of $35k a year. I thought that was rich. But now I feel poor at $2.4m.

Dunno, but with a 'stache that big, you can afford a lot of therapy to figure it out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 06, 2020, 07:10:38 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on October 06, 2020, 02:47:38 PM

Quote from: Dicey on October 06, 2020, 11:45:47 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on October 06, 2020, 11:22:13 AM

this thread seems to have morphed into a political discussion.

let's refocus on the topic for a second - how is everyone doing in their "race"?  i received some long awaited carry/promote last week for a PE fund, which put us above $5.5mm which is hard to believe even as i write it.

$1.0m is in home equity but still.

anyone getting surprises (to the upside) during the pandemic?  i can't help but feel guilty about our good fortune, we are definitely not hurting like many others in the world right now.

are we all a case of the rich getting richer?

Not so sure I'd agree with your characterization. There has also been much discussion of beer of late, does that make this a boozer thread? I don't think so.

Funny, I think of this thread as a "race" in name only. By any reasonable mustachian metric, we have won our race. This is more of a companionable group amble than an actual race, IMO. You want to see hard work? Go check out the "Race to 10k" thread. We're all past the point where we're actually doing any heavy lifting. Mostly we just watch our investments work for us and talk about other stuff. It's usually a friendly discussion that occasionally includes politics and lots of other things, like beer. Did anyone say beer? Hell, I don't even drink and I find it reasonably interesting.

Congratulations on making your number. When are you pulling the trigger to GTFO?

actually i don't really have a number.  i think that's just a way of making it easy to keep doing OMY.  i probably have enough to pull the plug BUT there are still some things i want that i wouldn't be comfortable buying at our current net worth.

i do really want to change jobs though. i think the people i work for are negatively impacting my stress levels, self perception, etc.

Actually, I meant the $4.5M + $1M home equity you quoted. Isn't that enough? I never had an exact number either, because it didn't come with my crystal ball, dammit! However, Dec. 5, 2020 will be my Eight Year FIREversary and it's been glorious!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on October 06, 2020, 08:14:47 PM

Quote from: lhamo on October 06, 2020, 04:56:00 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on October 06, 2020, 12:52:23 PM

Here’s what I want to know. How can I be more stressed and miserable at 46 (spouse 51) with $2.4m NW, yet be as unhappy as I’ve ever been in my life (job stress and money worries). Whereas at 22 and broke I was carefree and not that stressed, even tho I was working hard at a staring salary of $35k a year. I thought that was rich. But now I feel poor at $2.4m.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What are your money worries, exactly?

I FIREd at 46.  Liquid net worth at the time was less than yours -- lots of equity tied up in a very expensive property at the time.  We sold that when I was 48, bought another expensive but not quite as ridiculously expensive property, and have been living off the cash difference since then.  Plenty in retirement savings to ride the market until the cash runs out (at least 8-10 years from now).  I have had no worries during the recent market gyrations because if things really tank I can use it as a buying opportunity.  No, I'm not optimizing every penny, but I don't have to.  I already have enough.

I don’t need therapy,I need to retire from soul-sucking megacorp USA :-) We are retirement rich, and cash poor, with only 100k in cash. Vast majority of NW is in pre-tax retirement accounts and deferred comp. I just shoved money into deferred accounts most of my career and didn’t focus on retiring early. So how to get to age 55 most effectively if I don’t work is the big question. Will probably just bite the bullet and surrender my sizeable pension from a prior job and live off that to 55. Spouse will also keep working and provide a supplemental income and most importantly health care. But he needs to find a new job first.

Otherwise we will be on perpetual cruises in our old age trying to spend our retirement since we don’t have heirs if we don’t start spending some of it now.

It’s the cash flow over the next few years that stresses me. Once we get past that we are in a much better spot.

I am still in awe how I had 10 dollars in my pocket graduating college and yet was so care-free. Guess that’s youth for ya, ha!


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:05:10 PM

Question for all of you thoughtful individuals... would you count any of this stock in your net worth calculation?

Backstory: husband & I each work for the same Fortune 100 company. We have stock as a part of our compensation. My stock vests at the end of each month, and auto sells. I have no plans to currently leave the company within the next year. My husband's stock vests similarly, but upon vesting, he can hold or sell. He has no plans to leave at all, and in fact, would like to keep working (not necessarily at current employer) indefinitely. I have ~$600k in unvested stock, and will be getting likely another $150k or so this year. He has a similar amount.

I've thought of adding a year's worth of that stock value into our net worth, to give us a better projection into the future. But, it's not keeping me up at night. I currently don't include any unvested stock in our net worth calculations. Oh, and it all auto vests immediately should either of us die while employed at the company.  (This came up as a discussion, as we were calculating our assets for paperwork to update our wills.)

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 06, 2020, 09:11:07 PM

@rmorris50 Rule of 72(t)...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 06, 2020, 09:14:21 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:05:10 PM

Question for all of you thoughtful individuals... would you count any of this stock in your net worth calculation?

Backstory: husband & I each work for the same Fortune 100 company. We have stock as a part of our compensation. My stock vests at the end of each month, and auto sells. I have no plans to currently leave the company within the next year. My husband's stock vests similarly, but upon vesting, he can hold or sell. He has no plans to leave at all, and in fact, would like to keep working (not necessarily at current employer) indefinitely. I have ~$600k in unvested stock, and will be getting likely another $150k or so this year. He has a similar amount.

I've thought of adding a year's worth of that stock value into our net worth, to give us a better projection into the future. But, it's not keeping me up at night. I currently don't include any unvested stock in our net worth calculations. Oh, and it all auto vests immediately should either of us die while employed at the company.  (This came up as a discussion, as we were calculating our assets for paperwork to update our wills.)

Thoughts?

Yeah I have one. I worked for a Fortune 500 company that fell in the toilet and all my stock options expired virtually worthless!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on October 06, 2020, 09:16:15 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 06, 2020, 09:11:07 PM

@rmorris50 Rule of 72(t)...

Yes I didn’t say that but is what I would like to do. Surrender pension and the then following year start 72(t) to supplement it every year. Damn financial advisor won’t like it but oh well.


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:40:07 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 06, 2020, 09:14:21 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:05:10 PM

Question for all of you thoughtful individuals... would you count any of this stock in your net worth calculation?

Backstory: husband & I each work for the same Fortune 100 company. We have stock as a part of our compensation. My stock vests at the end of each month, and auto sells. I have no plans to currently leave the company within the next year. My husband's stock vests similarly, but upon vesting, he can hold or sell. He has no plans to leave at all, and in fact, would like to keep working (not necessarily at current employer) indefinitely. I have ~$600k in unvested stock, and will be getting likely another $150k or so this year. He has a similar amount.

I've thought of adding a year's worth of that stock value into our net worth, to give us a better projection into the future. But, it's not keeping me up at night. I currently don't include any unvested stock in our net worth calculations. Oh, and it all auto vests immediately should either of us die while employed at the company.  (This came up as a discussion, as we were calculating our assets for paperwork to update our wills.)

Thoughts?

Yeah I have one. I worked for a Fortune 500 company that fell in the toilet and all my stock options expired virtually worthless!

Stock is currently over ~$1400/share. Anything can happen of course, if 2020 has taught me nothing else. The stock would have to drop to $0 for me to have no value. But, it's a valid concern. Is there no time horizon with which you'd calculate part of the stock? We all calculate our investments in our net worth... Also, these are RSUs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on October 07, 2020, 02:40:42 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on October 06, 2020, 11:22:13 AM

let's refocus on the topic for a second - how is everyone doing in their "race"?  i received some long awaited carry/promote last week for a PE fund, which put us above $5.5mm which is hard to believe even as i write it.

I just did my latest tally, and if I convert to USD I'm at $4.4m NW, $3.6 excluding my home, $1m of which is pension (which I can't access until I'm 57, or could go a year or two higher by the time I get there).  I'm 45 and even with childcare expenses that would reduce if I stopped work, my half of household expenses is $75k (yes, we are spendy: but almost exactly half of this is nanny and school fees - more than a third is my share of our nanny's salary and pension contributions alone - so it's a very specific kind of lifestyle inflation!)  So even with fairly extravagant expenses, I should be good to go (3% of $2.6m gives me about $80k per annum, and if I stop work obviously the nanny expenses would stop too).

I'm currently negotiating to move onto a flexible freelance contract with my employer from 1/1/21, which feels exciting, scary and a bit underwhelming all at the same time.  Part of me wants to just cut the cord altogether, but I do worry I could get depressed if I make any too sudden transitions.  I have been at the same firm my whole career (over 20 years).  I am not a person who thrives on change.  I so worry that working part time will give me all the stress of constantly watching e-mail and dealing with fall out from high maintenance colleagues, with only part of the compensation.  But anyway, the idea is it's a gradual transition as a learning process: by summer next year I am hoping to figure out whether I am aiming at zero hours or whether I think I can achieve some kind of "best of both worlds" working a few hours a week while the kids are at school/nursery or in the evenings.

Despite being a naturally anxious person, at this point I am close to accepting that money is not really the issue for me any more.  Which is not to say that I couldn't run out of it, of course, or something terrible couldn't happen.  If my country moves away from state healthcare provision before I hit retirement age, or introduces a chunky wealth tax, I could be in some trouble, and obviously a major financial crisis could in theory wipe anybody out - but it would have to be something that we've never seen before.  Then of course there is the risk of war, climate change, all the myriad other things that could go wrong. 

But there are always "what ifs" and at this point my "problem" is dealing with my own psychology and anxiety, rather than the actual "things" that trigger the anxiety.  There will always be something.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 07, 2020, 07:55:58 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on October 06, 2020, 12:52:23 PM

Here’s what I want to know. How can I be more stressed and miserable at 46 (spouse 51) with $2.4m NW, yet be as unhappy as I’ve ever been in my life (job stress and money worries). Whereas at 22 and broke I was carefree and not that stressed, even tho I was working hard at a staring salary of $35k a year. I thought that was rich. But now I feel poor at $2.4m.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was you just seven weeks ago. Actually I'd say we have slightly less stability than you all do because we still have two kids (8 and 11) under our roof to worry about. Our stash is humming along at $2.8M invested yet upthread some pages ago you'll see me worrying over walking away from $135k-$150k job with a great boss that let me work from home. I knew I had it all yet I was completely miserable. And posters on this thread kept encouraging me to just do it.
It's been the change I needed. And the change we needed as a family. It's the strangest thing, I no longer have a paycheck coming in yet I worry LESS about money than I ever have. Now I have time to take care of myself and the people I love. And that has given me the ability to see that whatever comes our way we will figure it out. I don't know why I had to leave work to see it, but I did.
There are days when I'm on my morning run and the sun is on my face and I'm so fucking happy that I'm not sitting in front of my laptop that I have to nearly stop and cry. It's that good.
Or the other night when I was helping my son with his 6th grade math and he told me "mom, you explain it better than my teacher". I know I couldn't have spent that time with him while I was still working. I was just too tired to give that time to him.
I care so little about money now that I've only logged into my investment account to send a check to the food pantry and the local teen shelter. The balance just doesn't matter that much.
Oh, and before I FIRE'd, I was so worried that I would never have an opportunity to make more money if needed. I've been out seven weeks and I've had a job opportunity of some sort each week. I'm sure those will start to decrease as I turn more and more away but the opportunities are there.

All this to say that you should make a change. Maybe you don't feel ready to FIRE but you could change jobs, or go part time or do something. You felt rich at 22 despite being broke because you felt the future is bright and the opportunities were endless. That is still true. You are just in a rut. Time to make a big change.


Full disclosure- my spouse is still working which provides us with a buffer and insurance. Next step for us is to find a change for him. Maybe a less stressful job, or maybe FIRE. We are very concerned about finding affordable healthcare though, that is the ONE thing that keeps us both from FIREing. but maybe after the election we'll see some changes in the next year that will make us more comfortable.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on October 07, 2020, 07:58:16 AM

Thank you @BeanCounter , I know that was aimed at @rmorris50 but it was also completely what I needed to hear!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 07, 2020, 08:06:13 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on October 07, 2020, 02:40:42 AM

I'm currently negotiating to move onto a flexible freelance contract with my employer from 1/1/21, which feels exciting, scary and a bit underwhelming all at the same time.  Part of me wants to just cut the cord altogether, but I do worry I could get depressed if I make any too sudden transitions.  I have been at the same firm my whole career (over 20 years).  I am not a person who thrives on change.I so worry that working part time will give me all the stress of constantly watching e-mail and dealing with fall out from high maintenance colleagues, with only part of the compensation. But anyway, the idea is it's a gradual transition as a learning process: by summer next year I am hoping to figure out whether I am aiming at zero hours or whether I think I can achieve some kind of "best of both worlds" working a few hours a week while the kids are at school/nursery or in the evenings.

I'm going to encourage you to just leave. I had this same opportunity when I announced that I would be leaving my employer and I ultimately decided I needed to walk away to have real freedom. It was the right move. Because that fucking email never stops. And the cloud of responsibility just would have continued to hang over my head. I now feel like I have total freedom and it's amazing. I'm currently working on some potential consulting work on my own and it's so much better because I CALL THE SHOTS. It may not actually materialize into anything but I'm ok with that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 07, 2020, 08:12:22 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on October 07, 2020, 02:40:42 AM

But anyway, the idea is it's a gradual transition as a learning process: by summer next year I am hoping to figure out whether I am aiming at zero hours or whether I think I can achieve some kind of "best of both worlds" working a few hours a week while the kids are at school/nursery or in the evenings.

Another thought. In my "transition process", I was really hung up on this "best of both worlds idea". I'm still not sure I've totally figured out all my thoughts and feelings around it. But it has something to do with feeling like I went to school to have a career and that I should be able to be a mother and a career woman. And even though I had climbed pretty high up the proverbial ladder, leaving felt like a bit of failure in that regard. Like I had worked so hard to build a career and be a good mom, yet I couldn't hang. I was unhappy. I honestly felt like I was living a lie. I really wanted to be home.
Anyway, I had to change my thinking to acknowledge that I had already won. I had done ENOUGH. And you have too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on October 07, 2020, 09:05:07 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:40:07 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 06, 2020, 09:14:21 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:05:10 PM

Question for all of you thoughtful individuals... would you count any of this stock in your net worth calculation?

Backstory: husband & I each work for the same Fortune 100 company. We have stock as a part of our compensation. My stock vests at the end of each month, and auto sells. I have no plans to currently leave the company within the next year. My husband's stock vests similarly, but upon vesting, he can hold or sell. He has no plans to leave at all, and in fact, would like to keep working (not necessarily at current employer) indefinitely. I have ~$600k in unvested stock, and will be getting likely another $150k or so this year. He has a similar amount.

I've thought of adding a year's worth of that stock value into our net worth, to give us a better projection into the future. But, it's not keeping me up at night. I currently don't include any unvested stock in our net worth calculations. Oh, and it all auto vests immediately should either of us die while employed at the company.  (This came up as a discussion, as we were calculating our assets for paperwork to update our wills.)

Thoughts?

Yeah I have one. I worked for a Fortune 500 company that fell in the toilet and all my stock options expired virtually worthless!

Stock is currently over ~$1400/share. Anything can happen of course, if 2020 has taught me nothing else. The stock would have to drop to $0 for me to have no value. But, it's a valid concern. Is there no time horizon with which you'd calculate part of the stock? We all calculate our investments in our net worth... Also, these are RSUs.

It does drop to $0 if you leave before it vests, though.   So if you are using net worth as a proxy for FIRE stash/target retirement date I personally would not include unvested stock.  Partly because clawing that number in your head back if you finally get to the point where you want to employ FU money is going to be hard.

If you really want to count it then I would think long and hard about how long you would be willing/able to continue working there if things really changed in your life/the job went sour.   What if you ended up with a really horrible boss or project?  What if a family member got a serious illness and you needed to care for them -- would the stock continue to vest if you were on unpaid leave?  What if you decided to go PT, or burn through some accrued leave in order to gain a better life balance?  How long could you drag out your departure past the point of wanting to employ FU money in order to allow more shares to vest. 

I didn't have vesting shares to consider, but both times I left bad work situations I did this kind of calculation with my accrued leave.  In the first case, using a few days of leave every 2-3 weeks was enough to let me endure a bad situation (and keep drawing a paycheck) for about 6-8 months (gave notice at 6 months and had a LOOOOONG wind-out) until I had my exit strategy worked out.  In the second case I didn't really take extra leave (too busy), but did continue to accrue it.  So I got about 2 extra weeks of pay at the end by holding on longer.  In both cases the hit to my mental health was still pretty hard -- in retrospect I would have been better off leaving sooner with less money.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on October 07, 2020, 09:15:06 AM

Yes, the "cloud of responsibility" is something that I really want to break free from.  I do increasingly think you're right and I just need to stop.  I'm scheduled to talk to an older colleague who went very part time about 10 years ago, when his kids were similar ages to mine, and to get his views on it (both practically and in terms of how it feels), so I'm hoping that will be useful.

At the same time there are a couple of projects for ongoing clients that I like and would like to see through to the end.  So it is tempting just to see those through (far from full time: probably a couple of weeks of part time here and there over the next year or so).  I am already pretty convinced I will say no to anything new - and maybe I will load off the ongoing stuff to other people too, but I'm going to hang on to it for the first couple of months of next year at least and just see how it goes.  It should be very little in that time frame anyway (and may be nothing!)

I do think some of this mental shift of how I see myself is a part of why I am struggling to fully let go.  And I definitely need to work through that too.  I'm lucky to have quite a few very smart women friends who have either quit or ramped down considerably, so I would have some good cheerleaders in making that transition if it's what I choose to do.

Thank you for all your thoughts ... I think these are messages I am going to return to a bit and mull over more!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 07, 2020, 09:18:28 AM

Quote from: lhamo on October 07, 2020, 09:05:07 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:40:07 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 06, 2020, 09:14:21 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:05:10 PM

Question for all of you thoughtful individuals... would you count any of this stock in your net worth calculation?

Backstory: husband & I each work for the same Fortune 100 company. We have stock as a part of our compensation. My stock vests at the end of each month, and auto sells. I have no plans to currently leave the company within the next year. My husband's stock vests similarly, but upon vesting, he can hold or sell. He has no plans to leave at all, and in fact, would like to keep working (not necessarily at current employer) indefinitely. I have ~$600k in unvested stock, and will be getting likely another $150k or so this year. He has a similar amount.

I've thought of adding a year's worth of that stock value into our net worth, to give us a better projection into the future. But, it's not keeping me up at night. I currently don't include any unvested stock in our net worth calculations. Oh, and it all auto vests immediately should either of us die while employed at the company.  (This came up as a discussion, as we were calculating our assets for paperwork to update our wills.)

Thoughts?

Yeah I have one. I worked for a Fortune 500 company that fell in the toilet and all my stock options expired virtually worthless!

Stock is currently over ~$1400/share. Anything can happen of course, if 2020 has taught me nothing else. The stock would have to drop to $0 for me to have no value. But, it's a valid concern. Is there no time horizon with which you'd calculate part of the stock? We all calculate our investments in our net worth... Also, these are RSUs.

It does drop to $0 if you leave before it vests, though.   So if you are using net worth as a proxy for FIRE stash/target retirement date I personally would not include unvested stock.  Partly because clawing that number in your head back if you finally get to the point where you want to employ FU money is going to be hard.

If you really want to count it then I would think long and hard about how long you would be willing/able to continue working there if things really changed in your life/the job went sour.   What if you ended up with a really horrible boss or project?  What if a family member got a serious illness and you needed to care for them -- would the stock continue to vest if you were on unpaid leave?  What if you decided to go PT, or burn through some accrued leave in order to gain a better life balance?  How long could you drag out your departure past the point of wanting to employ FU money in order to allow more shares to vest. 

I didn't have vesting shares to consider, but both times I left bad work situations I did this kind of calculation with my accrued leave.  In the first case, using a few days of leave every 2-3 weeks was enough to let me endure a bad situation (and keep drawing a paycheck) for about 6-8 months (gave notice at 6 months and had a LOOOOONG wind-out) until I had my exit strategy worked out.  In the second case I didn't really take extra leave (too busy), but did continue to accrue it.  So I got about 2 extra weeks of pay at the end by holding on longer.  In both cases the hit to my mental health was still pretty hard -- in retrospect I would have been better off leaving sooner with less money.   

Another vote for not counting it.  My company uses 'Long Term Incentives' that vest 3 years from grant, with part of the award being stock and dividends that significantly increase the LTI value even further.  Other than it being a nice 'extra', I completely ignore these awards until I get close to them being granted.  I don't think I'd quit and leave one on the table if I'm a few months out from award, but anything 4 months or further, my time is worth more than a whole lot of money at this point...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on October 07, 2020, 09:50:30 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 06, 2020, 12:15:27 PM

I'm sending in the final payment on our mortgage tomorrow when the funds become available in our account.

It's done.    Now we just have to figure out where we want to direct our $1,000 a month charity money that we're starting in January.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 07, 2020, 10:00:20 AM

@EscapeVelocity2020 - thanks, that's useful. I'm thinking of a hybrid approach where I include anything that will be sold within the next 3 months. Tangible & I'd be well aware of any changes to my personal employment plans, but also useful on the pricing side. I was also thinking of using 80% of the stock's current value, to account for fluctuations in stock price.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: honeyfill on October 07, 2020, 10:55:16 AM

All this talk about vesting stock options and RSUs got me thinking about NUA's.  If you get company stock in your 401k, you can pull it out and pay income tax on the basis and pay capital gains on the Net Unrealized Appreciation(NUA). In my case , I have a significant chunk of a former company stock in an old 401k.  I am retiring this year and would be paying 24% on the basis if I take it out before January. But if I take it out after January , it would put me over the MAGI limit for ACA subsidies.
 However, I just found out that you can pick and choose the shares you take out and pay the taxes on.  The rest you can roll over into an IRA.

https://www.kitces.com/blog/net-unrealized-appreciation-irs-rules-nua-from-401k-and-esop-plans (https://www.kitces.com/blog/net-unrealized-appreciation-irs-rules-nua-from-401k-and-esop-plans)

This is especially useful if you have some older stock with a very low basis vs some recent purchases with a very high basis.
So after the first of the year I plan to my only enough of my older shares to keep me below the ACA subsidy limit, while moving  the majority of company stock to a capital gains tax instead of an income tax.

TL/DR:  If you are doing a NUA out of a 401k, you have flexibility to take out the lowest basis shares and leave the high basis shares in a IRA. This is a great way to maneuver your Income tax brackets and your ACA MAGI.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 07, 2020, 10:55:45 AM

I just wanted to say thank you to @rmorris50 for opening up about your situation and to @BeanCounter for the thoughtful responses. I have been at rmorris’s situation off-and-on for a couple of years, though not quite there financially. I love BeanCounter’s response. For me, the quarantine and work from home couldn’t have come at a better time.  I have really enjoyed the flexibility, and while being a bit removed from work has left me feeling out of the game at times, it also has given me the freedom to step back, think about things, and guide my team rather than solve problems myself.  It’s a lot of fun to help develop others, and really gratifying to see them perform.

On the home front, being physically at home has allowed me to be more mentally at home. Home is now first, and work is something I do around the demands of home rather than the opposite.  This has given me the mental space, combined with time due to lack of travel, to tackle some big home projects this summer. Just last night, I logged off and headed outside to for a couple of hours of house painting before it got dark, and DW asked me why I was so happy. That hasn’t happened a whole lot in recent years.

It's funny how we get so tied up in achieving success, often without thinking of what success really means to us. That 22-year-old optimism and possibility, that desire to travel the world or climb mountains or visit every baseball stadium in the country gets forgotten, and instead we focus on our career and house and car and status, and these things are often “valued” by the people who are least important to us.

For a long time, the concept of FIRE meant (to me) the ability to walk away and slam the door on those people on the way out, sort of FU money on steroids. Now that we are basically FIRE, it means freedom to engage on my own terms, the ability to put limits on the stress I take on myself, the ability to say no, the ability to elevate above the fray. It doesn’t mean I’m not involved, but it does mean that I don’t have to internalize the stress and tension of the game.  And as a plus, I still get paid... a lot!

I look at people who continue to play their life’s game at a high level well past normal retirement age. They could certainly retire, but their work, their “game”, is what they are passionate about. I’d like to figure that out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on October 07, 2020, 11:25:15 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:05:10 PM

Question for all of you thoughtful individuals... would you count any of this stock in your net worth calculation?

Backstory: husband & I each work for the same Fortune 100 company. We have stock as a part of our compensation. My stock vests at the end of each month, and auto sells. I have no plans to currently leave the company within the next year. My husband's stock vests similarly, but upon vesting, he can hold or sell. He has no plans to leave at all, and in fact, would like to keep working (not necessarily at current employer) indefinitely. I have ~$600k in unvested stock, and will be getting likely another $150k or so this year. He has a similar amount.

I've thought of adding a year's worth of that stock value into our net worth, to give us a better projection into the future. But, it's not keeping me up at night. I currently don't include any unvested stock in our net worth calculations. Oh, and it all auto vests immediately should either of us die while employed at the company.  (This came up as a discussion, as we were calculating our assets for paperwork to update our wills.)

Thoughts?

I'm going to answer this with an answer, then a question.

I put zero value on RSUs.  Sure, eTrade says they're worth over a hundred grand.  If I can't quit RIGHT NOW and take it as cash, it is worthless.

Now the question.  Why do you care what your net worth is?  You can't really use that towards the X spending to figure out if you're ready to stop working.  I mean...unless you plan to sell your home, how does knowing its value help you?  My investments spread sheet has a net worth box and if I update my cash savings, it would spit out a number.  It's a useless number, though.  Just be patient.  You'll get to your target "liquid investments" number.  You could come up to me on the street and ask me what I have in liquid investments and I'd be able to give you a pretty accurate number as that's the important one.  If you asked for my net worth, I'd be looking at the sky and doing math in my head to add my house and maybe cars and does that 1969 Guild Studio 302 guitar count? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 07, 2020, 11:31:27 AM

Good question, @Car Jack . I think I'm being conservative in my FIRE amount, by not including it at all. While it's unreasonable to assign value to all of it (no plans to stay to collect it all), it also feels unreasonable to treat what's approximately 40% of our comp as non existent every month for projections. I'm mostly interested in using it to understand a reasonable exit point.

(Overall context, I am very financially conservative, and would keep all of our money in laddered CDs if comfort was my main objective.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 07, 2020, 11:33:29 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 07, 2020, 10:00:20 AM

@EscapeVelocity2020 - thanks, that's useful. I'm thinking of a hybrid approach where I include anything that will be sold within the next 3 months. Tangible & I'd be well aware of any changes to my personal employment plans, but also useful on the pricing side. I was also thinking of using 80% of the stock's current value, to account for fluctuations in stock price.

Doing things like using 80% of the current value is a rabbits hole, IMHO.  You can basically do this with all of your investments, but the discounting would all be guesswork.  For example, I don't look at my 401k as if I'll get 100% of that number, due to taxes at some point.  I'm not going to stay in the 0% bracket when I'm in my 60's and 70's, and even if I did, I'd have RMD's at some point...  But why bother trying to figure out how much to discount everything?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on October 07, 2020, 01:18:39 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:05:10 PM

Question for all of you thoughtful individuals... would you count any of this stock in your net worth calculation?

Backstory: husband & I each work for the same Fortune 100 company. We have stock as a part of our compensation. My stock vests at the end of each month, and auto sells. I have no plans to currently leave the company within the next year. My husband's stock vests similarly, but upon vesting, he can hold or sell. He has no plans to leave at all, and in fact, would like to keep working (not necessarily at current employer) indefinitely. I have ~$600k in unvested stock, and will be getting likely another $150k or so this year. He has a similar amount.

I've thought of adding a year's worth of that stock value into our net worth, to give us a better projection into the future. But, it's not keeping me up at night. I currently don't include any unvested stock in our net worth calculations. Oh, and it all auto vests immediately should either of us die while employed at the company.  (This came up as a discussion, as we were calculating our assets for paperwork to update our wills.)

Thoughts?

Question to clarify. If you were be let go or quit, what portion of that stock would you get to take with you and cash out?  Death is a much lower probability and let’s face it, you won’t be in a position to do anything about it anyway.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 07, 2020, 01:33:32 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on October 07, 2020, 01:18:39 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:05:10 PM

Question for all of you thoughtful individuals... would you count any of this stock in your net worth calculation?

Backstory: husband & I each work for the same Fortune 100 company. We have stock as a part of our compensation. My stock vests at the end of each month, and auto sells. I have no plans to currently leave the company within the next year. My husband's stock vests similarly, but upon vesting, he can hold or sell. He has no plans to leave at all, and in fact, would like to keep working (not necessarily at current employer) indefinitely. I have ~$600k in unvested stock, and will be getting likely another $150k or so this year. He has a similar amount.

I've thought of adding a year's worth of that stock value into our net worth, to give us a better projection into the future. But, it's not keeping me up at night. I currently don't include any unvested stock in our net worth calculations. Oh, and it all auto vests immediately should either of us die while employed at the company.  (This came up as a discussion, as we were calculating our assets for paperwork to update our wills.)

Thoughts?

Question to clarify. If you were be let go or quit, what portion of that stock would you get to take with you and cash out?  Death is a much lower probability and let’s face it, you won’t be in a position to do anything about it anyway.

The death part matters because it's part of our shared estate (planning for minor children), but obviously not part of my retirement strategy. :-) A minimum of 2 months worth of stock in the event I was let go or quit. Typically, it's much more generous (often 6-12 months) depending on the exact situation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on October 07, 2020, 03:26:46 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 07, 2020, 01:33:32 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on October 07, 2020, 01:18:39 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:05:10 PM

Question for all of you thoughtful individuals... would you count any of this stock in your net worth calculation?

Backstory: husband & I each work for the same Fortune 100 company. We have stock as a part of our compensation. My stock vests at the end of each month, and auto sells. I have no plans to currently leave the company within the next year. My husband's stock vests similarly, but upon vesting, he can hold or sell. He has no plans to leave at all, and in fact, would like to keep working (not necessarily at current employer) indefinitely. I have ~$600k in unvested stock, and will be getting likely another $150k or so this year. He has a similar amount.

I've thought of adding a year's worth of that stock value into our net worth, to give us a better projection into the future. But, it's not keeping me up at night. I currently don't include any unvested stock in our net worth calculations. Oh, and it all auto vests immediately should either of us die while employed at the company.  (This came up as a discussion, as we were calculating our assets for paperwork to update our wills.)

Thoughts?

Question to clarify. If you were be let go or quit, what portion of that stock would you get to take with you and cash out?  Death is a much lower probability and let’s face it, you won’t be in a position to do anything about it anyway.

The death part matters because it's part of our shared estate (planning for minor children), but obviously not part of my retirement strategy. :-) A minimum of 2 months worth of stock in the event I was let go or quit. Typically, it's much more generous (often 6-12 months) depending on the exact situation.

So to rephrase, if you were to leave tomorrow, what you would get in the way of this stock is say 6 months worth of them, which is worth roughly half of what you get annually. which would be $75,000. Do I have it right? You get nothing else and any of this remaining unvested stock returns to the company?

If so, there’s your answer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Well Respected Man on October 07, 2020, 03:28:56 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 07, 2020, 01:33:32 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on October 07, 2020, 01:18:39 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:05:10 PM

Question for all of you thoughtful individuals... would you count any of this stock in your net worth calculation?

Backstory: husband & I each work for the same Fortune 100 company. We have stock as a part of our compensation. My stock vests at the end of each month, and auto sells. I have no plans to currently leave the company within the next year. My husband's stock vests similarly, but upon vesting, he can hold or sell. He has no plans to leave at all, and in fact, would like to keep working (not necessarily at current employer) indefinitely. I have ~$600k in unvested stock, and will be getting likely another $150k or so this year. He has a similar amount.

I've thought of adding a year's worth of that stock value into our net worth, to give us a better projection into the future. But, it's not keeping me up at night. I currently don't include any unvested stock in our net worth calculations. Oh, and it all auto vests immediately should either of us die while employed at the company.  (This came up as a discussion, as we were calculating our assets for paperwork to update our wills.)

Thoughts?

Question to clarify. If you were be let go or quit, what portion of that stock would you get to take with you and cash out?  Death is a much lower probability and let’s face it, you won’t be in a position to do anything about it anyway.

The death part matters because it's part of our shared estate (planning for minor children), but obviously not part of my retirement strategy. :-) A minimum of 2 months worth of stock in the event I was let go or quit. Typically, it's much more generous (often 6-12 months) depending on the exact situation.

I count the ones that I plan on selling, and I value them at the current stock price. I multiply the total by 0.68 to account for taxes. It's all cake icing at this point, so it's not like I would be eating cat food if I FU'ed out before selling them. I definitely don't count anything that hasn't been granted, and in fact I'm trying to think of ideas to work my boss for a bonus instead of RSUs without tipping my hand about retiring. By ignoring the ones that I will be leaving on the table, I hope I am less tempted to OMY.

If you are counting on that money to contribute towards your ability to FIRE, then yeah, you might want to multiply by a probability that you will be employed on the vesting date times a calculated valuation based on one of the formulas that you can find online, and count the 2 months' minimum severance package at the current price.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 07, 2020, 03:58:26 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on October 07, 2020, 03:26:46 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 07, 2020, 01:33:32 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on October 07, 2020, 01:18:39 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:05:10 PM

Question for all of you thoughtful individuals... would you count any of this stock in your net worth calculation?

Backstory: husband & I each work for the same Fortune 100 company. We have stock as a part of our compensation. My stock vests at the end of each month, and auto sells. I have no plans to currently leave the company within the next year. My husband's stock vests similarly, but upon vesting, he can hold or sell. He has no plans to leave at all, and in fact, would like to keep working (not necessarily at current employer) indefinitely. I have ~$600k in unvested stock, and will be getting likely another $150k or so this year. He has a similar amount.

I've thought of adding a year's worth of that stock value into our net worth, to give us a better projection into the future. But, it's not keeping me up at night. I currently don't include any unvested stock in our net worth calculations. Oh, and it all auto vests immediately should either of us die while employed at the company.  (This came up as a discussion, as we were calculating our assets for paperwork to update our wills.)

Thoughts?

Question to clarify. If you were be let go or quit, what portion of that stock would you get to take with you and cash out?  Death is a much lower probability and let’s face it, you won’t be in a position to do anything about it anyway.

The death part matters because it's part of our shared estate (planning for minor children), but obviously not part of my retirement strategy. :-) A minimum of 2 months worth of stock in the event I was let go or quit. Typically, it's much more generous (often 6-12 months) depending on the exact situation.

So to rephrase, if you were to leave tomorrow, what you would get in the way of this stock is say 6 months worth of them, which is worth roughly half of what you get annually. which would be $75,000. Do I have it right? You get nothing else and any of this remaining unvested stock returns to the company?

If so, there’s your answer.

Correct, although doubling that for a net worth estimate for us as a family (my husband & I are employed at the same company, and have similar stock). This has been a helpful thought exercise.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on October 11, 2020, 09:54:36 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on October 07, 2020, 11:25:15 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on October 06, 2020, 09:05:10 PM

Question for all of you thoughtful individuals... would you count any of this stock in your net worth calculation?

Backstory: husband & I each work for the same Fortune 100 company. We have stock as a part of our compensation. My stock vests at the end of each month, and auto sells. I have no plans to currently leave the company within the next year. My husband's stock vests similarly, but upon vesting, he can hold or sell. He has no plans to leave at all, and in fact, would like to keep working (not necessarily at current employer) indefinitely. I have ~$600k in unvested stock, and will be getting likely another $150k or so this year. He has a similar amount.

I've thought of adding a year's worth of that stock value into our net worth, to give us a better projection into the future. But, it's not keeping me up at night. I currently don't include any unvested stock in our net worth calculations. Oh, and it all auto vests immediately should either of us die while employed at the company.  (This came up as a discussion, as we were calculating our assets for paperwork to update our wills.)

Thoughts?

I'm going to answer this with an answer, then a question.

I put zero value on RSUs.  Sure, eTrade says they're worth over a hundred grand.  If I can't quit RIGHT NOW and take it as cash, it is worthless.

Now the question.  Why do you care what your net worth is?  You can't really use that towards the X spending to figure out if you're ready to stop working.  I mean...unless you plan to sell your home, how does knowing its value help you?  My investments spread sheet has a net worth box and if I update my cash savings, it would spit out a number.  It's a useless number, though.  Just be patient.  You'll get to your target "liquid investments" number.  You could come up to me on the street and ask me what I have in liquid investments and I'd be able to give you a pretty accurate number as that's the important one.  If you asked for my net worth, I'd be looking at the sky and doing math in my head to add my house and maybe cars and does that 1969 Guild Studio 302 guitar count?

NW is just an easy way to communicate wealth in conversation. But to you're point, I am totally ignoring NW to determine when I can retire. I do a household cash flow analysis of all money coming in the door and out the door every year until age 90 (which means having to project investment accounts out). I also don't use withdrawal rules of thumb.

This also allows me to see figure out what an "optimal" way to access all my accounts are. One example, do I surrender a sizeable pension now (take the penalty) to live off of, and save my IRAs to use in conjunction with my social security. OR, do I defer the pension to age 70 and use it and social security as my "longevity insurance", and draw down IRAs sooner, incurring penalties along the way. I also have deferred comp payout out for 15 years between ages 55 and 70. It's like this problem I am trying to optimizing, and I haven't found quite a solution yet that I has a risk level I am comfortable with.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: honeyfill on October 11, 2020, 09:06:43 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on September 03, 2020, 09:46:44 AM

Quote from: honeyfill on September 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Fair Warning , I passed the 3 million mark again on Friday.  It is not too late to go out and buy some "Puts"
Every time a pass a milestone , it seems the market tanks!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 12, 2020, 09:02:24 AM

Quote from: honeyfill on October 11, 2020, 09:06:43 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on September 03, 2020, 09:46:44 AM

Quote from: honeyfill on September 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Fair Warning , I passed the 3 million mark again on Friday.  It is not too late to go out and buy some "Puts"
Every time a pass a milestone , it seems the market tanks!!

Feels good, Then you look around and see nothing has really basically changed.   The sun still rises and there are rainy days.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 12, 2020, 10:39:16 AM

Quote from: pecunia on October 12, 2020, 09:02:24 AM

Quote from: honeyfill on October 11, 2020, 09:06:43 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on September 03, 2020, 09:46:44 AM

Quote from: honeyfill on September 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Fair Warning , I passed the 3 million mark again on Friday.  It is not too late to go out and buy some "Puts"
Every time a pass a milestone , it seems the market tanks!!

Feels good, Then you look around and see nothing has really basically changed.   The sun still rises and there are rainy days.

Exactly. I was just watching a YT video with the word "Patriot" in the title. Of course this came from a "foaming at the mouth Trumpster" who believes anything Trump is clearly patriotic and by definition anything not Trump is not!

I managed to watch 30 seconds of this drivel as the presenter dived into a tirade of how America will be like Venezuela if Biden gets elected.. and just as my blood pressure started to rise I shut it off.

Like WTAF?

Then I looked around.. I still have many more $millions than the "Patriot lady" and the Sun is poking out of the clouds on my ranchett this morning, my roof doesn't leak and the coffee is hot..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 13, 2020, 04:17:26 AM

Definitely seems more and more like the markets give a crap over who wins the election and for the most part has dismissed most things. Will be curious to see how with earnings starting today how if in anyway that makes a difference . Banks have been crappy to hold so just out of curiosity want to see how they do as they could carry the Market higher since they haven't really participated. Add to that Apple's New products day and Amazon Prime sales day. In the end as you guys have been saying the sun will rise tomorrow either way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 13, 2020, 06:26:29 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on October 13, 2020, 04:17:26 AM

Definitely seems more and more like the markets give a crap over who wins the election and for the most part has dismissed most things. Will be curious to see how with earnings starting today how if in anyway that makes a difference . Banks have been crappy to hold so just out of curiosity want to see how they do as they could carry the Market higher since they haven't really participated. Add to that Apple's New products day and Amazon Prime sales day. In the end as you guys have been saying the sun will rise tomorrow either way.

I recently heard a great interview with Morgan Housel on the Animal Spirits podcast. I would strongly checking out his new book "The Psychology of Money", it is an easy and entertaining read.

In this article (https://www.fool.com/investing/2016/08/05/the-best-presidents-for-the-economy.aspx), he says:

Quote

We give presidents too much praise when the economy is good and too much criticism when it's bad.

All of them, no matter the party. Eight years isn't a long time -- four is a blip -- and checks and balances limit what one president can do. No matter who lives in the White House, business cycles come and go, the Federal Reserves flexes with unmatched power, and the 78% of the global economy that is not the United States pushes and pulls everything around. It's not that presidents don't matter in the economy and stock market. It's that so many things outside a president's control matter so much more, especially as you lengthen your time horizon.

Also checkout this blog post (https://www.collaborativefund.com/blog/the-psychology-of-money/) that summarizes much of his book.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 14, 2020, 04:34:37 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on October 13, 2020, 06:26:29 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on October 13, 2020, 04:17:26 AM

Definitely seems more and more like the markets give a crap over who wins the election and for the most part has dismissed most things. Will be curious to see how with earnings starting today how if in anyway that makes a difference . Banks have been crappy to hold so just out of curiosity want to see how they do as they could carry the Market higher since they haven't really participated. Add to that Apple's New products day and Amazon Prime sales day. In the end as you guys have been saying the sun will rise tomorrow either way.

I recently heard a great interview with Morgan Housel on the Animal Spirits podcast. I would strongly checking out his new book "The Psychology of Money", it is an easy and entertaining read.

In this article (https://www.fool.com/investing/2016/08/05/the-best-presidents-for-the-economy.aspx), he says:

Quote

We give presidents too much praise when the economy is good and too much criticism when it's bad.

All of them, no matter the party. Eight years isn't a long time -- four is a blip -- and checks and balances limit what one president can do. No matter who lives in the White House, business cycles come and go, the Federal Reserves flexes with unmatched power, and the 78% of the global economy that is not the United States pushes and pulls everything around. It's not that presidents don't matter in the economy and stock market. It's that so many things outside a president's control matter so much more, especially as you lengthen your time horizon.

Also checkout this blog post (https://www.collaborativefund.com/blog/the-psychology-of-money/) that summarizes much of his book.

Thank you for that! I will check it out.

Unbelievable how Bank stocks have just become Dogs. Like Utilities now with all the restrictions which was much needed during the Banking crisis. Huge Blow out by JPM yesterday and 26% increase in deposits and cant catch a bid. Really need banks to help for the markets to climb higher IMHO. Glad my index funds will adjust for all that. Another reason why being a stock picker is a tough gig.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on October 16, 2020, 05:21:20 PM

The right president and congress could pass the kind of fiscal stimulus that the economy needs right now.

But the stock market is not the economy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on October 17, 2020, 07:17:35 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on October 14, 2020, 04:34:37 AM

Thank you for that! I will check it out.

Unbelievable how Bank stocks have just become Dogs. Like Utilities now with all the restrictions which was much needed during the Banking crisis. Huge Blow out by JPM yesterday and 26% increase in deposits and cant catch a bid. Really need banks to help for the markets to climb higher IMHO. Glad my index funds will adjust for all that. Another reason why being a stock picker is a tough gig.

I think most banks are likely a value trap at this point. Super low interest rates aren't good for them.  FINTECH is still young, but it promises to eat a lot of the banks lunch in coming years. All sorts of cool stuff in the crypto world as well.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 18, 2020, 12:04:16 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on October 17, 2020, 07:17:35 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on October 14, 2020, 04:34:37 AM

Thank you for that! I will check it out.

Unbelievable how Bank stocks have just become Dogs. Like Utilities now with all the restrictions which was much needed during the Banking crisis. Huge Blow out by JPM yesterday and 26% increase in deposits and cant catch a bid. Really need banks to help for the markets to climb higher IMHO. Glad my index funds will adjust for all that. Another reason why being a stock picker is a tough gig.

I think most banks are likely a value trap at this point. Super low interest rates aren't good for them.  FINTECH is still young, but it promises to eat a lot of the banks lunch in coming years. All sorts of cool stuff in the crypto world as well.

I agree with you on the Banks being Value Traps. Especially The larger Banks, JPM, BAC, C, WF MS and couple others. I don't understand the crypto world at all and for that reason have stayed away from it. Being my little 1% fun account I primarily focus on start ups or turnarounds and have a couple Bios , 5G plays, Pot stocks and now nibbling on some beaten down Material stocks. Couple others. But cant make a case as I said for Big banks with all the restrictions they have become basically like utilities.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on October 18, 2020, 02:37:48 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on October 18, 2020, 12:04:16 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on October 17, 2020, 07:17:35 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on October 14, 2020, 04:34:37 AM

Thank you for that! I will check it out.

Unbelievable how Bank stocks have just become Dogs. Like Utilities now with all the restrictions which was much needed during the Banking crisis. Huge Blow out by JPM yesterday and 26% increase in deposits and cant catch a bid. Really need banks to help for the markets to climb higher IMHO. Glad my index funds will adjust for all that. Another reason why being a stock picker is a tough gig.

I think most banks are likely a value trap at this point. Super low interest rates aren't good for them.  FINTECH is still young, but it promises to eat a lot of the banks lunch in coming years. All sorts of cool stuff in the crypto world as well.

I agree with you on the Banks being Value Traps. Especially The larger Banks, JPM, BAC, C, WF MS and couple others. I don't understand the crypto world at all and for that reason have stayed away from it. Being my little 1% fun account I primarily focus on start ups or turnarounds and have a couple Bios , 5G plays, Pot stocks and now nibbling on some beaten down Material stocks. Couple others. But cant make a case as I said for Big banks with all the restrictions they have become basically like utilities.

The banks are less and less useful. They don't lend money when liquidity is desperately needed, are inefficient and are in effect a protected cartel.  I see FINTECH basically ending that.  If I can use my cell phone and pay my bills instantly and keep my excess cash with say a brokerage, what need do I have for a bank?  WeChat and Alipay do some ridiculously high percentage of payment transactions in China.  There is no reason why that can't happen here, other than the banks and the credit card companies not liking it.

As for crypto currency, it really has two interesting aspects that I see.  First with currencies that are not backed by central banks. Bitcoin for example, and that's been where most of the attention has been.  I'm sort of meh on that aspect, even though I made goodly amount on it a few years back.  Where I see the interesting stuff happening is with the blockchain.  Such as using the blockchain (fancy encryption and programming) for automatically executing contracts or for issuance of collateralized loans without intermediaries.  So what you have is a self-executing contract.  I put up say gold ingots (or cryptocurrency) and use that as collateral for a loan.  If I fail to make the payment, the collateral is automatically liquidated and used to pay my debtors.  No muss, no fuss. All in public view.  This stuff is very much in it's infancy but when you go to doing that to say issue mortgages, then the world gets very, very interesting.     

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 20, 2020, 03:43:11 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on October 18, 2020, 02:37:48 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on October 18, 2020, 12:04:16 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on October 17, 2020, 07:17:35 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on October 14, 2020, 04:34:37 AM

Thank you for that! I will check it out.

Unbelievable how Bank stocks have just become Dogs. Like Utilities now with all the restrictions which was much needed during the Banking crisis. Huge Blow out by JPM yesterday and 26% increase in deposits and cant catch a bid. Really need banks to help for the markets to climb higher IMHO. Glad my index funds will adjust for all that. Another reason why being a stock picker is a tough gig.

I think most banks are likely a value trap at this point. Super low interest rates aren't good for them.  FINTECH is still young, but it promises to eat a lot of the banks lunch in coming years. All sorts of cool stuff in the crypto world as well.

I agree with you on the Banks being Value Traps. Especially The larger Banks, JPM, BAC, C, WF MS and couple others. I don't understand the crypto world at all and for that reason have stayed away from it. Being my little 1% fun account I primarily focus on start ups or turnarounds and have a couple Bios , 5G plays, Pot stocks and now nibbling on some beaten down Material stocks. Couple others. But cant make a case as I said for Big banks with all the restrictions they have become basically like utilities.

The banks are less and less useful. They don't lend money when liquidity is desperately needed, are inefficient and are in effect a protected cartel.  I see FINTECH basically ending that.  If I can use my cell phone and pay my bills instantly and keep my excess cash with say a brokerage, what need do I have for a bank?  WeChat and Alipay do some ridiculously high percentage of payment transactions in China.  There is no reason why that can't happen here, other than the banks and the credit card companies not liking it.

As for crypto currency, it really has two interesting aspects that I see.  First with currencies that are not backed by central banks. Bitcoin for example, and that's been where most of the attention has been.  I'm sort of meh on that aspect, even though I made goodly amount on it a few years back.  Where I see the interesting stuff happening is with the blockchain.  Such as using the blockchain (fancy encryption and programming) for automatically executing contracts or for issuance of collateralized loans without intermediaries.  So what you have is a self-executing contract.  I put up say gold ingots (or cryptocurrency) and use that as collateral for a loan.  If I fail to make the payment, the collateral is automatically liquidated and used to pay my debtors.  No muss, no fuss. All in public view.  This stuff is very much in it's infancy but when you go to doing that to say issue mortgages, then the world gets very, very interesting.   

When you dumb it down like that it does make alot of sense. Already at a point people hardly use cash anymore and for ease personally I like paying with my venmo account so just one more but bigger step in the whole process

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 20, 2020, 05:15:21 AM

^^ I recently pulled $1,000 in cold, hard cash form my actual bank account at my actual brick and mortar bank, simply because i like having a little US currency on hand.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 20, 2020, 07:31:15 AM

Hey guys, we are looking from some thoughts on car buying from like minded people. I don't want to post in the larger forum because, well, when you've got $3M of invested assets decisions are different. :) And I know there are some good car guys on this thread. We are NOT car people. We like nice things, but other than that it's just a way to get from place to place.
DH is wanting to finally pull the trigger on buying a new car. His 2010 Honda Accord is at $250k miles. He drives about 22k-24k miles per year. (I know, I know, it's because of silly commute but that's a long story and I've let go of it a long time ago). Because of his high mileage he knows he wants to get another Accord as it's the most comfortable and most affordable solution. So we finally went and drove a couple over the weekend. He's got it narrowed down to two choices-
 2018 Honda Accord Touring 1.5T  with just under 25,000 miles $28,700 is what they are offering
 OR-
2020 Honda Accord EXL 2.0T- $30,700 dealer "best price" this one is a model down so a few less features, but bigger engine with a little more zip and we'd likely get an extra year of miles out of it since it's brand new

He's also interested in the Accord Hybrid but they seem a bit harder to find, and with his high miles we'd have to replace the battery sooner. But we have calculated roughly that the Hybrid would likely save us $1,000 per year on gas.

Anything else we should be considering? Does it matter? I've found that this types of decisions are a little harder because there are so many options when you have money and the impact between the options matters less. Make sense?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on October 20, 2020, 08:08:06 AM

I don’t think it really matters which car he chooses at this point. But for the high mileage he drives I have a comment. I recently purchased a “CPO” which included an unlimited mileage warranty. I chose an Audi A6 3.0T & have really been enjoying the luxury and performance of it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on October 20, 2020, 09:08:59 AM

I wouldn't consider the hybrid because with that many miles, I assume there's a lot of highway miles.  On the highway, the hybrid is just a brick being dragged down the road.  Personally, I'd get the nicest Accord new.  With your net worth, there's no reason to be buying crap for cars.

I'm in the same net worth boat and with 4 driving people in my family, we have 6 cars.  And I'm eyeing yet another......a 74 Jeep CJ5 that's heavily modified for offroad use.  My 14 Wrangler Unlimited would go to only hot weather offroading and class 6 runs.  Either that or I'd get AC fitted to the CJ.  Now, that would be cool!  (see what I did there?)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on October 20, 2020, 10:33:25 AM

I’d go with the 2020 better engine unless he’s really a featured guy. The. I’d wait for a 2020 touring to show up in the next few weeks...Get a nicer model-he’s in the car all the time. He might as well enjoy it. At this point he doesn’t have 10 more working years left, right? So which car isn’t really that relevant,  or is the $1,000 difference over 10 years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 20, 2020, 11:03:08 PM

Get a loaded 2020 model if you want.  Screw it.  You've been frugal enough to get here and he's still working.  Reward yourselves.  It's still an affordable car, even the top of the line.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 21, 2020, 03:41:47 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 20, 2020, 11:03:08 PM

Get a loaded 2020 model if you want.  Screw it.  You've been frugal enough to get here and he's still working.  Reward yourselves.  It's still an affordable car, even the top of the line.

This- Better model with the perks..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on October 21, 2020, 05:08:13 AM

 I read an article this morning about inflation on the used car market and the price being asked for a 2 year old car here seems to reflect that. So you get to pay $2000 less for a 2 year old car with mileage? If it were me, I’d scratch that off the list immediately. The risk/reward doesn’t merit it. New cars come with a warranty and often have financing incentives like zero percent financing.

Now I buy very basic cars because I just happen to like them. I’d be trying to figure out what DH really enjoys in a car. If it’s the bells and whistles, so be it. He’s spending a lot of time in the car. If he really doesn’t care about that, get the stripped model. Why pay for what you don’t use? Either way, this is a pretty modest car. In my view Mustachianism isn’t about always denying luxury. It’s about being deliberate and smart and spending on things that actually deliver joy to you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 21, 2020, 06:13:39 AM

This recent discussion about cars got me thinking about where to spend money. I haven't driven to work daily since about 2000 when I got my first broadband connection in my home. I have been mostly working from home since then - I was one of the earliest telecommuters. In fact, for the last few years when I was working, I was commuting to Manhattan by public transit so my car usage is down to about 5000 miles a year. I have reached the point where I could buy a Mercedes S class without it having much of an impact on our stash. And yet, I can't summon any enthusiasm for buying a replacement for my 9 year old Prius.

In contrast, since we were spending so much time at home this year, we realized how many problems had accumulated in our home so we have decided to get them fixed all at once. I have spent the first three weeks of my retirement clearing out 20+ years of accumulated junk in my basement in preparation for this work. This has been the most satisfying thing I've done in years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 21, 2020, 06:51:25 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on October 21, 2020, 05:08:13 AM

I read an article this morning about inflation on the used car market and the price being asked for a 2 year old car here seems to reflect that. So you get to pay $2000 less for a 2 year old car with mileage? If it were me, I’d scratch that off the list immediately. The risk/reward doesn’t merit it. New cars come with a warranty and often have financing incentives like zero percent financing.

Now I buy very basic cars because I just happen to like them. I’d be trying to figure out what DH really enjoys in a car. If it’s the bells and whistles, so be it. He’s spending a lot of time in the car. If he really doesn’t care about that, get the stripped model. Why pay for what you don’t use? Either way, this is a pretty modest car. In my view Mustachianism isn’t about always denying luxury. It’s about being deliberate and smart and spending on things that actually deliver joy to you.

I've heard the same and when I bought my slightly used CRV seven years ago I think it was true. I went in to buy an off lease used CRV with about 20k miles. Paid cash and took the one that they were willing to give the best deal on- silver. In hindsight I think I only saved about $4k over buying new, but it made the first dink in the stupid preschool parking lot a lot easier to the take! :)
We've always leaned toward buying slightly used because ripping up and down the highway every day just beats them up.
In this case it's harder to compare apples to apples because the nice 2018 touring that's available has a 1.5L engine and I believe the 2020 touring only comes with a 2.0. If he were to buy a 2020 Touring with the 2.0L T engine which is basically everything he could possibly want it would be about $34k. I did not include that in the original question because he had taken it off the list since he thought it was probably more than he really needed. But since you all are such bad influences, encouraging us to spend our money, it's back on the list! :)
Buying a 2020 Accord Touring 2.0T would be $34k. Buying the used $28,700. Difference between the two is the 2.0L engine.
Or split the baby and get the 2020 Accord EXL 2.0 for $30k and give up- cooling seats, navigation and cordless phone charger. Oh and heated seats in the back for the kids. I'm not sure those extra features are really worth $4k, but not my car. I'm perfectly happy driving my old dinked up CRV.
At this point I don't care. I didn't care if he kept the old one for another year or so but now that the end of 2020 is here it seems like they have a lot of inventory left and are willing to negotiate more than they were a few months ago. So it might be a good time to buy. Plus the old Accord is running well and we could offload to CarMax easily. If we wait longer we may have to consider donating it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 21, 2020, 06:53:12 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on October 20, 2020, 09:08:59 AM

I wouldn't consider the hybrid because with that many miles, I assume there's a lot of highway miles.  On the highway, the hybrid is just a brick being dragged down the road. 

@Car Jack, thanks this is essentially what our trusty mechanic told him. He was the one that also said he felt having to replace the battery every $100k or so would be a deal breaker.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 21, 2020, 06:56:28 AM

Quote from: couponvan on October 20, 2020, 10:33:25 AM

I’d go with the 2020 better engine unless he’s really a featured guy. The. I’d wait for a 2020 touring to show up in the next few weeks...Get a nicer model-he’s in the car all the time. He might as well enjoy it. At this point he doesn’t have 10 more working years left, right? So which car isn’t really that relevant,  or is the $1,000 difference over 10 years.

I have no idea how much longer he will work. He's under a lot of daily stress and I've encouraged him to consider leaving, either retiring or getting a "smaller" job somewhere like church or something. He's already told me he's not comfortable retiring before 50 because he feels as a dad he should be working. Meh. Though it is probably a good thing until the insurance world gets a little more stable. I don't want to have to worry about what happens to the ACA every damn year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 21, 2020, 07:05:26 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on October 20, 2020, 08:08:06 AM

I don’t think it really matters which car he chooses at this point. But for the high mileage he drives I have a comment. I recently purchased a “CPO” which included an unlimited mileage warranty. I chose an Audi A6 3.0T & have really been enjoying the luxury and performance of it.

Those are nice cars and I'm glad you are enjoying driving it.
We couldn't go that direction until he retires for a couple reasons-
-We owned a Volkswagen once, fun car to drive but when you drive a lot of miles they can get expensive to fix fast and I don't think either of us want to be chasing down the dealership for warranty repairs. Because of his commute we found a great local mechanic who only works on Japanese cars and we buy only cars he approves. So far that strategy has saved us a lot of money. When we've had some things go wrong he has even told us that we need to take it to the dealer because there is a service bulletin out on it and they have to fix it for free for us. Other times on older cars he's found cheaper fixes to keep it running.

-DH works for a state University and does not feel comfortable driving a "luxury" brand car that might make people think he's making more than he is. He's also just a pretty modest guy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on October 21, 2020, 08:51:20 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 21, 2020, 07:05:26 AM

-DH works for a state University and does not feel comfortable driving a "luxury" brand car that might make people think he's making more than he is. He's also just a pretty modest guy.

This can be a valid concern.  My son works as a structural engineer at a structural engineering company.  Engineers are notoriously cheap.  A woman who usually drives a Jeep Wrangler came in one day driving her boyfriend's BMW.  She spent the day batting away the comments "Wow, we're definitely paying you too much".  My son owns a Honda S2000 as a fun, weekend car.  He doesn't dare drive it to work for fear that those who control the salaries might think he doesn't need the money.  He's driving one of my cars, a 7 year old Subaru Crosstrek with 113k miles on it.  Nobody even looks at it, so he's safe from the limelight.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 21, 2020, 11:15:12 AM

I think it’s funny how engineers drive older cars to show they don’t make too much money, and salespeople drive fancy cars to show all their success. The salespeople I know don’t seem to worry about being seen in a brand new fancy Mercedes or BMW. I actually think they use it to justify getting their high pay. It takes money to maintain a successful image!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on October 21, 2020, 11:25:08 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 21, 2020, 11:15:12 AM

I think it’s funny how engineers drive older cars to show they don’t make too much money, and salespeople drive fancy cars to show all their success. The salespeople I know don’t seem to worry about being seen in a brand new fancy Mercedes or BMW. I actually think they use it to justify getting their high pay. It takes money to maintain a successful image!

My DD's boyfriend's roommate sells real estate.  He graduated college about 1.5 years ago.  His rent is $800 and he just bought an Audi A5 & the payment is $1300!  What an "image".  lol! 


Besides the stupid car payment amount, you've really got to wonder about anyone in real estate that pays rent.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on October 21, 2020, 01:04:49 PM

He bought a 2 door car for real estate? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 21, 2020, 04:32:13 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on October 21, 2020, 11:25:08 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 21, 2020, 11:15:12 AM

I think it’s funny how engineers drive older cars to show they don’t make too much money, and salespeople drive fancy cars to show all their success. The salespeople I know don’t seem to worry about being seen in a brand new fancy Mercedes or BMW. I actually think they use it to justify getting their high pay. It takes money to maintain a successful image!

My DD's boyfriend's roommate sells real estate.  He graduated college about 1.5 years ago.  His rent is $800 and he just bought an Audi A5 & the payment is $1300!  What an "image".  lol! 


Besides the stupid car payment amount, you've really got to wonder about anyone in real estate that pays rent.

I've known engineers to buy older cars cheap because they know how to fix them.  The money saved goes into their pockets.  I believe a lot of engineers are not concerned with image.  Pocket protectors are not used by sales personnel.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: alienbogey on October 21, 2020, 09:52:05 PM

Give serious consideration to an electric car.  Depending on your circumstances it could well be the best solution. 

After 2 1/2 years and 31,000 miles with a Chevy Bolt we know we will never buy another ICE car.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 22, 2020, 03:12:26 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on October 21, 2020, 01:04:49 PM

He bought a 2 door car for real estate?

That was my first thought too. Not to mention 2 door cars are just not practical in any means unless its a second car and your into them as a hobby or something imo.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 22, 2020, 06:38:03 AM

Quote from: alienbogey on October 21, 2020, 09:52:05 PM

Give serious consideration to an electric car.  Depending on your circumstances it could well be the best solution. 

After 2 1/2 years and 31,000 miles with a Chevy Bolt we know we will never buy another ICE car.

We've talked about this. Even possibly a Tesla. The math on a Tesla doesn't work out for us. Most of the other electrics he doesn't like the size or look of. The only one he might consider would be a Ford Fusion plug in Hybrid. We drove a Fusion on our Yellowstone trip and he enjoyed it, and it was a comfortable ride for the family. My cousin had one (plug in hybrid) and loved it. Said it was peppy and saved her on gas.
I sent him a link to the Fusion to see if he might want to take a peek. From the Ford site it looked like it could check all the boxes to me and the price for fully loaded is about the same as the Accord. Highway MPG says 97 which is much better than the Accord Hybrid. We would have to have a plug put in our Garage though. I don't think that's a big deal.

I'm hoping to switch to the electric when my CRV dies. I like the look of the Bolt. Not sure if two teenage boys can fit in it with us?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on October 22, 2020, 09:34:58 AM

Not a car person by any stretch, but I used the website linked below for our last car purchase, and have decided going forward that I will only go with vehicles that have an excellent past record. The info is focused on major drivetrain issues, not more minor stuff that could still require repairs/hassle, and is based on cars that have been through auction, so there's a little bit of a bias, and the data is only directly applicable to used vehicles and so of only indirect use regarding a new vehicle unless the model is at the end of its cycle.

The history of the Ford Fusion is not super great, though there is no granular detail to distinguish between ICE-only, hybrid, plug-in, etc. varieties if they share the same model type. Based on the overall score, I'd only consider the Camry in this category, though someone more knowledgeable that me is free to let us know if this type of data is less useful than it appears. Also, if you scroll down to the lower graphs, you see that the overall scores are dragged down by the initial release years as well as what appears to be relatively disastrous 2013 vehicles, which is oddly mid-cycle, and maybe the better-than-average reliability of the 2009, 2011, and 2012 years would be enough to convince you to go with one of those cars.
http://dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Ford_Fusion.html

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 22, 2020, 10:11:27 AM

Quote from: PathtoFIRE on October 22, 2020, 09:34:58 AM

Not a car person by any stretch, but I used the website linked below for our last car purchase, and have decided going forward that I will only go with vehicles that have an excellent past record. The info is focused on major drivetrain issues, not more minor stuff that could still require repairs/hassle, and is based on cars that have been through auction, so there's a little bit of a bias, and the data is only directly applicable to used vehicles and so of only indirect use regarding a new vehicle unless the model is at the end of its cycle.

The history of the Ford Fusion is not super great, though there is no granular detail to distinguish between ICE-only, hybrid, plug-in, etc. varieties if they share the same model type. Based on the overall score, I'd only consider the Camry in this category, though someone more knowledgeable that me is free to let us know if this type of data is less useful than it appears. Also, if you scroll down to the lower graphs, you see that the overall scores are dragged down by the initial release years as well as what appears to be relatively disastrous 2013 vehicles, which is oddly mid-cycle, and maybe the better-than-average reliability of the 2009, 2011, and 2012 years would be enough to convince you to go with one of those cars.
http://dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Ford_Fusion.html

Oh Interesting! Thanks for posting this.
According to this he should get a Lexus ES or Toyota Camry. Lexus might be a no because of price and it being a "luxury car". He's always said the Camry isn't as much fun to drive as the Accord. I don't know.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 22, 2020, 02:38:50 PM

Quote from: alienbogey on October 21, 2020, 09:52:05 PM

Give serious consideration to an electric car.  Depending on your circumstances it could well be the best solution. 

After 2 1/2 years and 31,000 miles with a Chevy Bolt we know we will never buy another ICE car.

We've had a lot of nice/fancy cars & the Bolt is my all time favorite car ever. Love it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 23, 2020, 03:46:08 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 22, 2020, 10:11:27 AM

Oh Interesting! Thanks for posting this.
According to this he should get a Lexus ES or Toyota Camry. Lexus might be a no because of price and it being a "luxury car". He's always said the Camry isn't as much fun to drive as the Accord. I don't know.

There's a big group of people including me who don't find driving much fun in general :-)

One of the cars we have in my household is a hybrid Camry and I can confirm that it accelerates smartly indeed - ought to be sufficient for most needs. We bought the Camry over the equivalent Lexus ES 350 hybrid for two reasons:

• Its a lot cheaper, equally comfortable and is mechanically identical.
• We are just not the types who like to draw attention ourselves.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: texxan1 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:28 AM

With my impending fire in a few months.. wanted to update my numbers

10/25/20

TNW   3.18m
LNW   2.66m

It would seem, that im far above my FIRE number of 2mm lol.   The firehose of cash is about to end, but with a nice years worth of severnce.

Glad to be hanging out and FIRE soon... T minus 64 working days

Tex

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 25, 2020, 11:42:17 AM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:28 AM

With my impending fire in a few months.. wanted to update my numbers

10/25/20

TNW   3.18m
LNW   2.66m

It would seem, that im far above my FIRE number of 2mm lol.   The firehose of cash is about to end, but with a nice years worth of severnce.

Glad to be hanging out and FIRE soon... T minus 64 working days

Tex

Very nice..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: achvfi on October 25, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:28 AM

With my impending fire in a few months.. wanted to update my numbers

10/25/20

TNW   3.18m
LNW   2.66m

It would seem, that im far above my FIRE number of 2mm lol.   The firehose of cash is about to end, but with a nice years worth of severnce.

Glad to be hanging out and FIRE soon... T minus 64 working days

Tex

Very nice, congratulations! Is the severance negotiated or part of your job benefits?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 25, 2020, 08:32:59 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:28 AM

With my impending fire in a few months.. wanted to update my numbers

10/25/20

TNW   3.18m
LNW   2.66m

It would seem, that im far above my FIRE number of 2mm lol.   The firehose of cash is about to end, but with a nice years worth of severnce.

Glad to be hanging out and FIRE soon... T minus 64 working days

Tex

Great job.  Enjoy the fruits of you hard work.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: texxan1 on October 28, 2020, 07:57:49 AM

Quote from: achvfi on October 25, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:28 AM

With my impending fire in a few months.. wanted to update my numbers

10/25/20

TNW   3.18m
LNW   2.66m

It would seem, that im far above my FIRE number of 2mm lol.   The firehose of cash is about to end, but with a nice years worth of severnce.

Glad to be hanging out and FIRE soon... T minus 64 working days

Tex

Very nice, congratulations! Is the severance negotiated or part of your job benefits?

The severence is part of an early out expression of interest program.. I work for a MegOil Corp and due to Covid they are offering early out for over 10k employees... its funny, because in our global managers meeting when they announced the cuts and EOI to all the managers, i raised my hand... The Local VP says... Thomas, do you have a question... i Said, Nope, just raising my hand to volunteer NOW...   He was pissed lol

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: achvfi on October 28, 2020, 10:07:19 AM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 28, 2020, 07:57:49 AM

The severence is part of an early out expression of interest program.. I work for a MegOil Corp and due to Covid they are offering early out for over 10k employees... its funny, because in our global managers meeting when they announced the cuts and EOI to all the managers, i raised my hand... The Local VP says... Thomas, do you have a question... i Said, Nope, just raising my hand to volunteer NOW...   He was pissed lol

LOL.. Awesome. Congrats again

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 28, 2020, 01:22:15 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 28, 2020, 07:57:49 AM

Quote from: achvfi on October 25, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:28 AM

With my impending fire in a few months.. wanted to update my numbers

10/25/20

TNW   3.18m
LNW   2.66m

It would seem, that im far above my FIRE number of 2mm lol.   The firehose of cash is about to end, but with a nice years worth of severnce.

Glad to be hanging out and FIRE soon... T minus 64 working days

Tex

Very nice, congratulations! Is the severance negotiated or part of your job benefits?

The severence is part of an early out expression of interest program.. I work for a MegOil Corp and due to Covid they are offering early out for over 10k employees... its funny, because in our global managers meeting when they announced the cuts and EOI to all the managers, i raised my hand... The Local VP says... Thomas, do you have a question... i Said, Nope, just raising my hand to volunteer NOW...   He was pissed lol

We had 3 folks in their 50's do the same in my 15-person Facilities group this last go-around.  They wondered if anyone in their 40's put their hand up, but I would have been a likely candidate and I'm content to ride this thing for a few more years if possible, if just for the health benefits...  but the income isn't the worst thing either.  By not taking the package though, I'm essentially agreeing not to ER (voluntarily quit) for another 3 years.  But my plan has always been to make them fire me or agree to severance, if it comes to that.  Nice to still have some power in what has felt like a powerless year...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 29, 2020, 02:38:10 AM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 28, 2020, 07:57:49 AM

Quote from: achvfi on October 25, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:28 AM

With my impending fire in a few months.. wanted to update my numbers

10/25/20

TNW   3.18m
LNW   2.66m

It would seem, that im far above my FIRE number of 2mm lol.   The firehose of cash is about to end, but with a nice years worth of severnce.

Glad to be hanging out and FIRE soon... T minus 64 working days

Tex

Very nice, congratulations! Is the severance negotiated or part of your job benefits?

The severence is part of an early out expression of interest program.. I work for a MegOil Corp and due to Covid they are offering early out for over 10k employees... its funny, because in our global managers meeting when they announced the cuts and EOI to all the managers, i raised my hand... The Local VP says... Thomas, do you have a question... i Said, Nope, just raising my hand to volunteer NOW...   He was pissed lol

thats awesome! congrats

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 29, 2020, 02:38:54 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 28, 2020, 01:22:15 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 28, 2020, 07:57:49 AM

Quote from: achvfi on October 25, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:28 AM

With my impending fire in a few months.. wanted to update my numbers

10/25/20

TNW   3.18m
LNW   2.66m

It would seem, that im far above my FIRE number of 2mm lol.   The firehose of cash is about to end, but with a nice years worth of severnce.

Glad to be hanging out and FIRE soon... T minus 64 working days

Tex

Very nice, congratulations! Is the severance negotiated or part of your job benefits?

The severence is part of an early out expression of interest program.. I work for a MegOil Corp and due to Covid they are offering early out for over 10k employees... its funny, because in our global managers meeting when they announced the cuts and EOI to all the managers, i raised my hand... The Local VP says... Thomas, do you have a question... i Said, Nope, just raising my hand to volunteer NOW...   He was pissed lol

We had 3 folks in their 50's do the same in my 15-person Facilities group this last go-around.  They wondered if anyone in their 40's put their hand up, but I would have been a likely candidate and I'm content to ride this thing for a few more years if possible, if just for the health benefits...  but the income isn't the worst thing either.  By not taking the package though, I'm essentially agreeing not to ER (voluntarily quit) for another 3 years.  But my plan has always been to make them fire me or agree to severance, if it comes to that.  Nice to still have some power in what has felt like a powerless year...

Nothing wrong with that plan!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 31, 2020, 03:58:10 AM

Be glad to get on the other side of the election and get that at least resolved to see /let this market hopefully at least settle down some on that news. Then there will still be the matter of the Virus and Stimulus but the election perhaps will stop some of the bleeding. Almost to the point I would put some money in but holding for now as seems like even though we rallied into the close Friday there is going to be some rumbling going forward.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on November 01, 2020, 06:25:24 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 28, 2020, 01:22:15 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 28, 2020, 07:57:49 AM

Quote from: achvfi on October 25, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:28 AM

With my impending fire in a few months.. wanted to update my numbers

10/25/20

TNW   3.18m
LNW   2.66m

It would seem, that im far above my FIRE number of 2mm lol.   The firehose of cash is about to end, but with a nice years worth of severnce.

Glad to be hanging out and FIRE soon... T minus 64 working days

Tex

Very nice, congratulations! Is the severance negotiated or part of your job benefits?

The severence is part of an early out expression of interest program.. I work for a MegOil Corp and due to Covid they are offering early out for over 10k employees... its funny, because in our global managers meeting when they announced the cuts and EOI to all the managers, i raised my hand... The Local VP says... Thomas, do you have a question... i Said, Nope, just raising my hand to volunteer NOW...   He was pissed lol

We had 3 folks in their 50's do the same in my 15-person Facilities group this last go-around.  They wondered if anyone in their 40's put their hand up, but I would have been a likely candidate and I'm content to ride this thing for a few more years if possible, if just for the health benefits...  but the income isn't the worst thing either.  By not taking the package though, I'm essentially agreeing not to ER (voluntarily quit) for another 3 years.  But my plan has always been to make them fire me or agree to severance, if it comes to that.  Nice to still have some power in what has felt like a powerless year...

My wife laughs at me every-time someone or the news mentions a voluntary or forced retirement with severance...she knows I'm jealous and pretty upset that hasn't happened to me!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 01, 2020, 08:36:26 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on November 01, 2020, 06:25:24 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 28, 2020, 01:22:15 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 28, 2020, 07:57:49 AM

Quote from: achvfi on October 25, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:28 AM

With my impending fire in a few months.. wanted to update my numbers

10/25/20

TNW   3.18m
LNW   2.66m

It would seem, that im far above my FIRE number of 2mm lol.   The firehose of cash is about to end, but with a nice years worth of severnce.

Glad to be hanging out and FIRE soon... T minus 64 working days

Tex

Very nice, congratulations! Is the severance negotiated or part of your job benefits?

The severence is part of an early out expression of interest program.. I work for a MegOil Corp and due to Covid they are offering early out for over 10k employees... its funny, because in our global managers meeting when they announced the cuts and EOI to all the managers, i raised my hand... The Local VP says... Thomas, do you have a question... i Said, Nope, just raising my hand to volunteer NOW...   He was pissed lol

We had 3 folks in their 50's do the same in my 15-person Facilities group this last go-around.  They wondered if anyone in their 40's put their hand up, but I would have been a likely candidate and I'm content to ride this thing for a few more years if possible, if just for the health benefits...  but the income isn't the worst thing either.  By not taking the package though, I'm essentially agreeing not to ER (voluntarily quit) for another 3 years.  But my plan has always been to make them fire me or agree to severance, if it comes to that.  Nice to still have some power in what has felt like a powerless year...

My wife laughs at me every-time someone or the news mentions a voluntary or forced retirement with severance...she knows I'm jealous and pretty upset that hasn't happened to me!

We had a divorced guy in his early 50's decide he'd had enough and up and quit.  Moved to Florida to get on with his relatively simple life (and possibly stop paying alimony).  About 2 months later, the company handed out voluntary severance packages (worth at least $300k in accelerated incentives and enticements for ER, plus unemployment (if you want to claim it), health benefits and COBRA...).  That left a pretty big impression on me - you really need to feel strongly and be willing to 'pay the price' for just up and quitting.

From what I heard, he's over it now, but I don't know anyone who'd be happy to give up $300k+ for 2 months of easy work.  Money isn't everything, especially if it is just 'extra' money, but it's got a psychological value.  Kinda' nice to hang it up feeling like you are ending the game with a win.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 01, 2020, 01:09:25 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 01, 2020, 08:36:26 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on November 01, 2020, 06:25:24 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 28, 2020, 01:22:15 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 28, 2020, 07:57:49 AM

Quote from: achvfi on October 25, 2020, 02:40:31 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:28 AM

With my impending fire in a few months.. wanted to update my numbers

10/25/20

TNW   3.18m
LNW   2.66m

It would seem, that im far above my FIRE number of 2mm lol.   The firehose of cash is about to end, but with a nice years worth of severnce.

Glad to be hanging out and FIRE soon... T minus 64 working days

Tex

Very nice, congratulations! Is the severance negotiated or part of your job benefits?

The severence is part of an early out expression of interest program.. I work for a MegOil Corp and due to Covid they are offering early out for over 10k employees... its funny, because in our global managers meeting when they announced the cuts and EOI to all the managers, i raised my hand... The Local VP says... Thomas, do you have a question... i Said, Nope, just raising my hand to volunteer NOW...   He was pissed lol

We had 3 folks in their 50's do the same in my 15-person Facilities group this last go-around.  They wondered if anyone in their 40's put their hand up, but I would have been a likely candidate and I'm content to ride this thing for a few more years if possible, if just for the health benefits...  but the income isn't the worst thing either.  By not taking the package though, I'm essentially agreeing not to ER (voluntarily quit) for another 3 years.  But my plan has always been to make them fire me or agree to severance, if it comes to that.  Nice to still have some power in what has felt like a powerless year...

My wife laughs at me every-time someone or the news mentions a voluntary or forced retirement with severance...she knows I'm jealous and pretty upset that hasn't happened to me!

We had a divorced guy in his early 50's decide he'd had enough and up and quit.  Moved to Florida to get on with his relatively simple life (and possibly stop paying alimony).  About 2 months later, the company handed out voluntary severance packages (worth at least $300k in accelerated incentives and enticements for ER, plus unemployment (if you want to claim it), health benefits and COBRA...).  That left a pretty big impression on me - you really need to feel strongly and be willing to 'pay the price' for just up and quitting.

From what I heard, he's over it now, but I don't know anyone who'd be happy to give up $300k+ for 2 months of easy work.  Money isn't everything, especially if it is just 'extra' money, but it's got a psychological value.  Kinda' nice to hang it up feeling like you are ending the game with a win.

Except at the time, he didn't know if it was going to be two weeks, two months, two years or more...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 02, 2020, 07:42:18 AM

Maybe, if you can hang it up and live a while, then it's a win.

How many times have you heard of these guys who retire after thirty to fifty years of work and just drop dead?  I used to work with an old guy, Frank.  Frank saved every penny for years.  He finally retired at 66.  A few months later Frank had a brain tumor and didn't last long after that.  Sometimes time is worth more than some extra money.

Do you want OMY of retirement or OMY of work?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 02, 2020, 10:35:49 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 02, 2020, 07:42:18 AM

Maybe, if you can hang it up and live a while, then it's a win.

How many times have you heard of these guys who retire after thirty to fifty years of work and just drop dead?  I used to work with an old guy, Frank.  Frank saved every penny for years.  He finally retired at 66.  A few months later Frank had a brain tumor and didn't last long after that.  Sometimes time is worth more than some extra money.

Do you want OMY of retirement or OMY of work?

I know so many stories like that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 02, 2020, 01:34:48 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 02, 2020, 07:42:18 AM

Maybe, if you can hang it up and live a while, then it's a win.

How many times have you heard of these guys who retire after thirty to fifty years of work and just drop dead?  I used to work with an old guy, Frank.  Frank saved every penny for years.  He finally retired at 66.  A few months later Frank had a brain tumor and didn't last long after that.  Sometimes time is worth more than some extra money.

Do you want OMY of retirement or OMY of work?

I don't know of anyone at my company that has died on the job, maybe that's why I think it's such an odd thing to worry about.  One guy did get cancer and his health insurance really saved him.  He did make some mistakes setting up his assets for his wife in case he were to pass, so now he is working in order to rebuild before ER.  If he had been ER at the time and on crappy medical insurance, he'd probably be bankrupt or dead, since the basic treatment he'd started on wasn't working and he was able to get a new doctor and an experimental treatment.  He spent a lot of time in the hospital and was on long term disability (paying 66% of his salary) for over a year.  Yet another story that left a bit of an impression on me.  Plus I have 2 teenagers on my insurance and I now have a pre-existing condition, so it's a valuable perk.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on November 02, 2020, 02:05:14 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 02, 2020, 10:35:49 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 02, 2020, 07:42:18 AM

Maybe, if you can hang it up and live a while, then it's a win.

How many times have you heard of these guys who retire after thirty to fifty years of work and just drop dead?  I used to work with an old guy, Frank.  Frank saved every penny for years.  He finally retired at 66.  A few months later Frank had a brain tumor and didn't last long after that.  Sometimes time is worth more than some extra money.

Do you want OMY of retirement or OMY of work?

I know so many stories like that.

Ditto - the worst was the partner one month prior to mandatory retirement. Heart attack in the office-at least he had a gorgeous view of the Bay Bridge and the Ferry Building in SF when he died. He was my favorite male partner name Gene. The head of our firm, another Gene I had worked with, got brain cancer and wrote a book “Chasing Darkness” about his impending death. It makes you want to make sure to enjoy your life more along the way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: FireLane on November 03, 2020, 08:44:55 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 02, 2020, 01:34:48 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 02, 2020, 07:42:18 AM

Maybe, if you can hang it up and live a while, then it's a win.

How many times have you heard of these guys who retire after thirty to fifty years of work and just drop dead?  I used to work with an old guy, Frank.  Frank saved every penny for years.  He finally retired at 66.  A few months later Frank had a brain tumor and didn't last long after that.  Sometimes time is worth more than some extra money.

Do you want OMY of retirement or OMY of work?

I don't know of anyone at my company that has died on the job, maybe that's why I think it's such an odd thing to worry about.  One guy did get cancer and his health insurance really saved him.  He did make some mistakes setting up his assets for his wife in case he were to pass, so now he is working in order to rebuild before ER.  If he had been ER at the time and on crappy medical insurance, he'd probably be bankrupt or dead, since the basic treatment he'd started on wasn't working and he was able to get a new doctor and an experimental treatment.  He spent a lot of time in the hospital and was on long term disability (paying 66% of his salary) for over a year.  Yet another story that left a bit of an impression on me.  Plus I have 2 teenagers on my insurance and I now have a pre-existing condition, so it's a valuable perk.

I know of two people at my company who died over a weekend. Neither was especially old or in bad health. It's not something you likely have to worry about, but it does happen. We never get to know how much time we have.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on November 03, 2020, 05:22:14 PM

True that you could keel over at any time.  But it's also true that if you enjoy your work and are fulfilled by it, then what's the problem with that?  What's tragic is when you're working at some miserable grind and then die prematurely on the way to some long term goal that due to your mortality you'll never get to attain. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 04, 2020, 09:45:22 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on November 03, 2020, 05:22:14 PM

True that you could keel over at any time.  But it's also true that if you enjoy your work and are fulfilled by it, then what's the problem with that?  What's tragic is when you're working at some miserable grind and then die prematurely on the way to some long term goal that due to your mortality you'll never get to attain.

I find work to be very fulfilling and most folks I work with also feel a bit 'spoiled' by having a good situation.  It's nice to have the FI to ER but still want to work, probably the ideal situation to be in - but we're not the folks that start blogs or comment extensively. 

But I understand the ethos of the community, I was there once, desperate to FIRE.  I was tossed about by the markets and struggled to figure out what I wanted.  And then there is now - ACA, over a decade of solid equity growth, and washed ashore upon a company that pays me well and treats me well.  I guess I'm in paradise :)  Although I'm not ER, I'm not gonna complain.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 05, 2020, 07:20:30 AM

It's a smart person that recognizes a good thing and is content before it ends.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 05, 2020, 05:48:27 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 05, 2020, 07:20:30 AM

It's a smart person that recognizes a good thing and is content before it ends.

That is the only sad thing, that it will come to an end sooner or later.  But in the meantime, you are 100% right, showing gratitude is important.  I totally understand that many folks out there work jobs that suck on many levels.  But work, in and of itself, does not suck as many ER's attest to (since many find meaning in a new form of work), and getting well taken care of is a nice side benefit too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 06, 2020, 03:11:12 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 05, 2020, 05:48:27 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 05, 2020, 07:20:30 AM

It's a smart person that recognizes a good thing and is content before it ends.

That is the only sad thing, that it will come to an end sooner or later.  But in the meantime, you are 100% right, showing gratitude is important.  I totally understand that many folks out there work jobs that suck on many levels.  But work, in and of itself, does not suck as many ER's attest to (since many find meaning in a new form of work), and getting well taken care of is a nice side benefit too.

Well put! Goes back to the ole saying its not work if you enjoy what your doing. For me I loved what I was doing and fortunately when I didnt anymore I was able to get out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 14, 2020, 03:54:05 AM

Everybody go beyond the beyond or Broke? this is the quietest I remember this thread ever being.
Thought for sure we would have some new people or people hitting some new levels. In any case will see how this plays out going through the end of the year and forward. Good news on Vaccine gave us a nice jump back and now if we could just get control of this Pandemic that would be a very good thing. Dr. Gotlieb says the roughest months though are still to come. Everyone be safe!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on November 14, 2020, 09:13:52 AM

Well, it's not a very round number but I just hit £3.5m including house.  Probably more meaningfully, I passed £2m excluding house and pension in the summer, so I am pretty definitively FI now, even at my fat spending levels.

I think I'm on my way to agreeing a 1 day a week contract at work starting in January (in reality it will be lumpy - so some weeks of 0 hours and some weeks closer to full time).

I suspect I will pull the plug on work altogether mid-year, but it seems worth a try to see if I can re-discover my former enjoyment of my work by doing less of it and being less tired!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 14, 2020, 09:34:13 AM

I pulled the plug six months ago.  I've been living off savings.  I've been ignoring the money thing.  I checked it yesterday.  Net worth is up.

Will stocks continue to rise or will they fall as we work through this Covid thing? It just seems that when it's over and people are working again that we should have more prosperity and spending which leads to economic growth and good stuff.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on November 14, 2020, 03:49:10 PM

I've been riding motorcycles and working on household projects at our mountain place.  The riding is wonderful and there are plenty of unfinished things to do on the cabin, so it's a good situation.  Today a buddy and I went out on a dual-sport ride on forest service roads on a mountain next to Watauga Lake.  As we crossed the river we saw dozens of kayakers getting in.  That reminded me that I'd like to explore the next lake over, South Holston Lake, if the weather remains so mild. 


I'm enjoying the playing, but I need to remember to cut some firewood while the weather is nice.  There are a lot of trees down on our property, so clearing it & gathering firewood are sort of the same project.  Of course I could buy wood & pay to get the downed trees cleaned up, but I enjoy the exercise.  I'll pay a buddy to help so it'll be more fun and go quicker. 


Covid-19 is flaring up & will be getting even worse.  Who knows how the economy will do?  Biden winning the election brings hope that we be listening to medical & scientific experts again, so that gives me hope that things will improve. 


We have a property under contract and there seems to be a lot of interest in another that we recently subdivided.  It will be nice to get all of the real estate sold.   It's all vacant building lots, so not producing income.  (I don't know why anyone would want to build at the moment, but I'm glad that there are a few that do.  :)  ) We noticed a couple of new lots nearby on Zillow yesterday that are priced much higher than ours, so that will help us remain firm on our prices.  Sometimes competition is a good thing, right? ;)


I hope all of you and your families are staying happy, safe, and well. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 15, 2020, 03:54:02 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 14, 2020, 03:54:05 AM

Everybody go beyond the beyond or Broke? this is the quietest I remember this thread ever being.
Thought for sure we would have some new people or people hitting some new levels. In any case will see how this plays out going through the end of the year and forward. Good news on Vaccine gave us a nice jump back and now if we could just get control of this Pandemic that would be a very good thing. Dr. Gotlieb says the roughest months though are still to come. Everyone be safe!

Heh - we are up a ridiculous amount in November. At the moment, we are probably at the highest invested net worth ever. I'm embarrassed to even say how much, I have a suspicion that its probably one of the highest numbers posted here :-)

After retiring at the beginning of October, work related stress, has dropped to zero but generalized covid and election related anxiety remains. Thankfully, without work, its easier to keep anxieties under control!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 15, 2020, 05:30:48 AM

I should actually hit the $2 million mark sometime next year excluding my fuzzy math from my pension. 

In other news, I was stunned with the checks I opened yesterday.  A few weeks ago I go notified by USAA that they were sending out additional checks to people who used their home selling/buying service a few years ago, you know the referral ones who end up with you getting a kick back from the agent commissions.  I was like meh, probably will be something trivial like $50.  Turned out to be .4% of the purchase price.  So it was a wind fall of close to 3k.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 15, 2020, 05:58:46 AM

Not much to report.  Net worth up slightly 2.55M with the election bump.   Did some fishing while at the Florida house for two weeks.  Back in Louisiana and working a bit.  Headed back to Florida in two weeks.  Have entertained thoughts of hanging it up, but expenses are just too high right now, especially medical. 955 days to go.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on November 15, 2020, 06:58:30 AM

The last two weeks did see a crazy $200k rise in portfolio to send me to a new high, but not enough higher than my Feb, Aug, and Oct highs to feel like we've moved out of the basic 2020 trading range for the year. 

I am only about 5% from a nice round number bucket mix that I will feel like is a real move higher and was my furthest reach goal target before RE (Cash Acct for first 3 years of RE + $2M taxable accts + $1M Retire accts), so that does seem remarkably possible now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 15, 2020, 07:51:49 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on November 15, 2020, 06:58:30 AM

The last two weeks did see a crazy $200k rise in portfolio to send me to a new high, but not enough higher than my Feb, Aug, and Oct highs to feel like we've moved out of the basic 2020 trading range for the year. 

I am only about 5% from a nice round number bucket mix that I will feel like is a real move higher and was my furthest reach goal target before RE (Cash Acct for first 3 years of RE + $2M taxable accts + $1M Retire accts), so that does seem remarkably possible now.

NW fell to 1.9m with March crash, now we are at 2.5m, kinda a scary swing. Closed on house end of sept so tied up 120k in house equity. Never Plan to prepay. Friends I confide in can’t believe I will FIRE with a mortgage, the idea it has to be paid off is pervasive. At 2.49 percent fixed, no way!

Now when to fire, sometime between now and March 2023. Luckily my spouse and financial advisor now understand how serious I am, but I’m tired of the question “what will you do, you hav me to figure that out before you quit”. How about just enjoy life and low stress. Cook , workout, hike and volunteer tutoring math? Ugh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on November 15, 2020, 08:08:38 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 15, 2020, 07:51:49 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on November 15, 2020, 06:58:30 AM

The last two weeks did see a crazy $200k rise in portfolio to send me to a new high, but not enough higher than my Feb, Aug, and Oct highs to feel like we've moved out of the basic 2020 trading range for the year. 

I am only about 5% from a nice round number bucket mix that I will feel like is a real move higher and was my furthest reach goal target before RE (Cash Acct for first 3 years of RE + $2M taxable accts + $1M Retire accts), so that does seem remarkably possible now.

NW fell to 1.9m with March crash, now we are at 2.5m, kinda a scary swing. Closed on house end of sept so tied up 120k in house equity. Never Plan to prepay. Friends I confide in can’t believe I will FIRE with a mortgage, the idea it has to be paid off is pervasive. At 2.49 percent fixed, no way!

Now when to fire, sometime between now and March 2023. Luckily my spouse and financial advisor now understand how serious I am, but I’m tired of the question “what will you do, you hav me to figure that out before you quit”. How about just enjoy life and low stress. Cook , workout, hike and volunteer tutoring math? Ugh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, my year low LNW was around $2.3M, so it definitely has swung wildly this year (basically $3.1M to $2.3M to $3.2M).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 15, 2020, 09:18:28 AM

We're up $66K since Halloween.  :)   

To put things in perspective, the S&P 500 is now a smidge over the historical annual average rate of return for the US stock market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 15, 2020, 12:31:04 PM

$2.52M LNW here.

Now at 59 the question of when to draw my UK pension (that fully matures on my 60th birthday) comes into play. Not drawing it means it grows at roughly 7%/yr and I can minimise income/taxes and maximise ACA subsidies.

Sounds great but at 72 there is going to be a hell of a tax hit..:)

Rich people problems!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on November 15, 2020, 01:00:31 PM

Under current policies I'd wait until you are at least 65 and on Medicare -- or until HRH is, too, if she is younger than you.  The ACA subsidies are probably worth more than the eventual tax hit will be. And by the time you take the tax hit you will be rolling in even MORE money....

If Biden manages to lower Medicare age to 60, revisit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 15, 2020, 01:36:44 PM

Yes HRH is 3.5 years younger which would put me at 68.5, so Roth conversion opportunities are going to be limited.

HRH gets a pension too which compounds the "problem".

I need a private jet clearly..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 15, 2020, 02:24:07 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 15, 2020, 01:36:44 PM

Yes HRH is 3.5 years younger which would put me at 68.5, so Roth conversion opportunities are going to be limited.

HRH gets a pension too which compounds the "problem".

I need a private jet clearly..:)

Costco can help with that.

 https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/15/business/costco-private-jet-membership/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/15/business/costco-private-jet-membership/index.html)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on November 15, 2020, 04:35:11 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 15, 2020, 07:51:49 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on November 15, 2020, 06:58:30 AM

The last two weeks did see a crazy $200k rise in portfolio to send me to a new high, but not enough higher than my Feb, Aug, and Oct highs to feel like we've moved out of the basic 2020 trading range for the year. 

I am only about 5% from a nice round number bucket mix that I will feel like is a real move higher and was my furthest reach goal target before RE (Cash Acct for first 3 years of RE + $2M taxable accts + $1M Retire accts), so that does seem remarkably possible now.

NW fell to 1.9m with March crash, now we are at 2.5m, kinda a scary swing. Closed on house end of sept so tied up 120k in house equity. Never Plan to prepay. Friends I confide in can’t believe I will FIRE with a mortgage, the idea it has to be paid off is pervasive. At 2.49 percent fixed, no way!

Now when to fire, sometime between now and March 2023. Luckily my spouse and financial advisor now understand how serious I am, but I’m tired of the question “what will you do, you hav me to figure that out before you quit”. How about just enjoy life and low stress. Cook , workout, hike and volunteer tutoring math? Ugh.

I'm a big fan of paying off the house in retirement.  But not at 2.5%. 

Being older (mid 50's) I don't get the strange stares when I talk about retiring.  Fact is, I doubt I ever will retire completely anyway.  I may well "retire" from my current job and take my pension, but I'm happy working.  It's a game to me. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LWYRUP on November 16, 2020, 08:12:59 PM

Friendly reminder that after a big runup is a great time to take a little off the table.

I transferred net $20k from stocks to bonds tonight. 

Just a tiny course correction to keep things on track for the long term. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on November 17, 2020, 04:18:10 AM

It’s been a while but I thought I’d report in.

Like others have commented, it’s been a wild ride this year. I kept buying when the market dumped and changed a lot of USD investments to AUD when the AUD was in free fall. Consequently it’s been a pretty great year financially. Almost as good as 2019.

Our NW just passed $4m AUD. Pretty much $3M USD

The last $1 million AUD took only 21 months to accumulate. Crazy stuff considering that our first million took more like 21 years. Really difficult to comprehend.

Amidst all this market excitement we repatriated to Australia, and instead of FIREing as planned for the past few years, i took on a promotion of sorts. DW has also picked up work.

So what of FIRE????

It’s still on the short term horizon.... just OMY or 2MYs 😆 Once I press eject there will be no going back, so I just want to be damn sure I am done with this “corporate dog” part of my life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on November 17, 2020, 11:10:53 AM

Yep, it has been a crazy year...

As of this morning my investments were $1.2 Mil + $40k of savings.  My GF has about $1.3 Mil investments.  She is getting a $30/yr pension and I will be eligible for $45/yr in 2 years (currently will get $24k/yr if I leave today).  Both have COLAs.  I figure the pensions combined are worth at least $1 Mil in today's money.  And I have my paid off house in a M/HCOL area.  I don't know what I would consider the total net worth, but it must be mid to high in the $3M-$4M range.

No RE for me at the moment as I plan on working until I get my full pension amount beginning in 2023.  Until then I continue to telework and investing in Roth money (currently I am at 50/50 pre tax/post tax)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 17, 2020, 07:26:57 PM

Made a move more heavily into stock today.  I was hedging with cash and bonds.  Now I'm hedging with employment for a couple of more years. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on November 18, 2020, 08:45:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 17, 2020, 07:26:57 PM

Made a move more heavily into stock today.  I was hedging with cash and bonds.  Now I'm hedging with employment for a couple of more years.

What do you mean moving?

Did you change your asset allocation numbers?  I'm pretty Boglehead in my approach with some variation, but documented.  For me, 50/50 stock/bond with international floating from about 3 years ago, meaning that I've got international, but don't control what it's sitting at.  It sat originally at 25% of equity and today, it's 20%.

The only moving I do is when I put money in to buy more, either actively for my taxable and Roth or passively with my 401k.  I always wait until after my tax return is complete before putting my Roth money in.  I was in the phase out area due to income one year and pulling the money out with the penalties is something I'm unwilling to do again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 18, 2020, 10:33:26 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on November 18, 2020, 08:45:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 17, 2020, 07:26:57 PM

Made a move more heavily into stock today.  I was hedging with cash and bonds.  Now I'm hedging with employment for a couple of more years.

What do you mean moving?

Did you change your asset allocation numbers?  I'm pretty Boglehead in my approach with some variation, but documented.  For me, 50/50 stock/bond with international floating from about 3 years ago, meaning that I've got international, but don't control what it's sitting at.  It sat originally at 25% of equity and today, it's 20%.

The only moving I do is when I put money in to buy more, either actively for my taxable and Roth or passively with my 401k.  I always wait until after my tax return is complete before putting my Roth money in.  I was in the phase out area due to income one year and pulling the money out with the penalties is something I'm unwilling to do again.

My solution to this was to just go with a backdoor Roth even if I might be able to qualify.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on November 19, 2020, 02:57:26 PM

I haven’t been on this thread in a while but decided to swing by after updating our numbers yesterday. It is ridiculous how at this point money just seems to grow on trees with how the stock market has rebounded since March.

We are at lucky $2.88M. As @itchyfeet was discussing upthread, the first million took way longer. In our case it was about 10 years for the first, 5 for the second, and we are on track to have the third in about 2 years.

Mind blown.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 19, 2020, 11:45:36 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on November 18, 2020, 08:45:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 17, 2020, 07:26:57 PM

Made a move more heavily into stock today.  I was hedging with cash and bonds.  Now I'm hedging with employment for a couple of more years.

What do you mean moving?

Did you change your asset allocation numbers?  I'm pretty Boglehead in my approach with some variation, but documented.  For me, 50/50 stock/bond with international floating from about 3 years ago, meaning that I've got international, but don't control what it's sitting at.  It sat originally at 25% of equity and today, it's 20%.

The only moving I do is when I put money in to buy more, either actively for my taxable and Roth or passively with my 401k.  I always wait until after my tax return is complete before putting my Roth money in.  I was in the phase out area due to income one year and pulling the money out with the penalties is something I'm unwilling to do again.

Back in February I hot the dumb idea of retiring early.  I decided to move to a position of greater safety.   I think I over did it and have since move back to a bit more agressive position.  Currently 65 percent stocks and 35 percent bonds. For decades I held about 90 percent stocks.  I'll probably work till mid 2023 now. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on November 20, 2020, 08:01:43 AM

We now have 3 $1.2M lake lots under contract.  Now we only have 2 left. 


Seems that the wealthy are in the mood to spend.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on November 20, 2020, 09:36:11 AM

We hit the $2.0 million liquid number yesterday. It wasn’t at all exciting. At one point I said $2.0 million and a paid off house for retirement. Now it’s $3.0 million and a paid off house, and paid off college.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on November 20, 2020, 10:43:48 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 19, 2020, 11:45:36 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on November 18, 2020, 08:45:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 17, 2020, 07:26:57 PM

Made a move more heavily into stock today.  I was hedging with cash and bonds.  Now I'm hedging with employment for a couple of more years.

What do you mean moving?

Did you change your asset allocation numbers?  I'm pretty Boglehead in my approach with some variation, but documented.  For me, 50/50 stock/bond with international floating from about 3 years ago, meaning that I've got international, but don't control what it's sitting at.  It sat originally at 25% of equity and today, it's 20%.

The only moving I do is when I put money in to buy more, either actively for my taxable and Roth or passively with my 401k.  I always wait until after my tax return is complete before putting my Roth money in.  I was in the phase out area due to income one year and pulling the money out with the penalties is something I'm unwilling to do again.

Back in February I hot the dumb idea of retiring early.  I decided to move to a position of greater safety.   I think I over did it and have since move back to a bit more agressive position.  Currently 65 percent stocks and 35 percent bonds. For decades I held about 90 percent stocks.  I'll probably work till mid 2023 now.

2023? I’m skeptical. 2023 will become 2025 and 2027. And what of it? If you’re happy and fulfilled doing your job, why quit?

I thought I’d be 2021 but now that I’ve decided that I’m FI and have had some time to reflect on it, I doubt I will be retiring at all. I like my job and will continue so long as I do like it and they’ll allow me to work from home. While I do foresee taking my pension at some point, I think my actual retirement will be delayed until the day they nail down the lid. Some people are just wired to work and I think I’m probably one of them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 20, 2020, 11:38:23 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on November 20, 2020, 10:43:48 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 19, 2020, 11:45:36 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on November 18, 2020, 08:45:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 17, 2020, 07:26:57 PM

Made a move more heavily into stock today.  I was hedging with cash and bonds.  Now I'm hedging with employment for a couple of more years.

What do you mean moving?

Did you change your asset allocation numbers?  I'm pretty Boglehead in my approach with some variation, but documented.  For me, 50/50 stock/bond with international floating from about 3 years ago, meaning that I've got international, but don't control what it's sitting at.  It sat originally at 25% of equity and today, it's 20%.

The only moving I do is when I put money in to buy more, either actively for my taxable and Roth or passively with my 401k.  I always wait until after my tax return is complete before putting my Roth money in.  I was in the phase out area due to income one year and pulling the money out with the penalties is something I'm unwilling to do again.

Back in February I hot the dumb idea of retiring early.  I decided to move to a position of greater safety.   I think I over did it and have since move back to a bit more agressive position.  Currently 65 percent stocks and 35 percent bonds. For decades I held about 90 percent stocks.  I'll probably work till mid 2023 now.

2023? I’m skeptical. 2023 will become 2025 and 2027. And what of it? If you’re happy and fulfilled doing your job, why quit?

I thought I’d be 2021 but now that I’ve decided that I’m FI and have had some time to reflect on it, I doubt I will be retiring at all. I like my job and will continue so long as I do like it and they’ll allow me to work from home. While I do foresee taking my pension at some point, I think my actual retirement will be delayed until the day they nail down the lid. Some people are just wired to work and I think I’m probably one of them.

For me some of it is lifestyle creep.  I'm not as willing to deny myself things as in the past.  There are some material things I want more than early retirement.  I realize that health care costs are going to go up in the future.  I realize that I will get old and have to hire people to do much of what I have always done in the past myself.  Old age care will be hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Taxes and insurance are going to go up. The majority of the time I like my job.  Honestly, the thought of selling shares to create a paycheck versus buying more each month terrifies me.  I'd rather drive a dagger into my heart than watch my accounts deplete. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on November 20, 2020, 01:28:56 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 20, 2020, 11:38:23 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on November 20, 2020, 10:43:48 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 19, 2020, 11:45:36 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on November 18, 2020, 08:45:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 17, 2020, 07:26:57 PM

Made a move more heavily into stock today.  I was hedging with cash and bonds.  Now I'm hedging with employment for a couple of more years.

What do you mean moving?

Did you change your asset allocation numbers?  I'm pretty Boglehead in my approach with some variation, but documented.  For me, 50/50 stock/bond with international floating from about 3 years ago, meaning that I've got international, but don't control what it's sitting at.  It sat originally at 25% of equity and today, it's 20%.

The only moving I do is when I put money in to buy more, either actively for my taxable and Roth or passively with my 401k.  I always wait until after my tax return is complete before putting my Roth money in.  I was in the phase out area due to income one year and pulling the money out with the penalties is something I'm unwilling to do again.

Back in February I hot the dumb idea of retiring early.  I decided to move to a position of greater safety.   I think I over did it and have since move back to a bit more agressive position.  Currently 65 percent stocks and 35 percent bonds. For decades I held about 90 percent stocks.  I'll probably work till mid 2023 now.

2023? I’m skeptical. 2023 will become 2025 and 2027. And what of it? If you’re happy and fulfilled doing your job, why quit?

I thought I’d be 2021 but now that I’ve decided that I’m FI and have had some time to reflect on it, I doubt I will be retiring at all. I like my job and will continue so long as I do like it and they’ll allow me to work from home. While I do foresee taking my pension at some point, I think my actual retirement will be delayed until the day they nail down the lid. Some people are just wired to work and I think I’m probably one of them.

For me some of it is lifestyle creep.  I'm not as willing to deny myself things as in the past.  There are some material things I want more than early retirement.  I realize that health care costs are going to go up in the future.  I realize that I will get old and have to hire people to do much of what I have always done in the past myself.  Old age care will be hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Taxes and insurance are going to go up. The majority of the time I like my job.  Honestly, the thought of selling shares to create a paycheck versus buying more each month terrifies me.  I'd rather drive a dagger into my heart than watch my accounts deplete.

Well then you probably should put together a solid estate plan cuz you’re going to leave a lot behind. (Hmmmm. Should probably take more of my own advice.)  The more I think about this FIRE the more it’s FI!...re notsomuch. The FI part is beginning to sink in and I realize that I’ll survive regardless of whether I work any more. Maybe not saving as much as I have been, but isn’t the idea of saving to spend at least some of it eventually?

So every day it’s a choice to work, not so much an imperative. That makes it more fun. Based on what I’ve seen of your NW in the past I think you’re gonna survive just fine.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on November 20, 2020, 01:37:16 PM

Quote from: couponvan on November 20, 2020, 09:36:11 AM

We hit the $2.0 million liquid number yesterday. It wasn’t at all exciting. At one point I said $2.0 million and a paid off house for retirement. Now it’s $3.0 million and a paid off house, and paid off college.

Sounds like us.  Though we were excited by both $1M (b/c it was $1M and it wasn't that many years before we couldn't imagine ever being "millionaires") and $2M (b/c we knew at that point we definitely felt like we could never work again) and celebrated both. 

In the end the final target was $3M + paid off house + 12 years college tuition/room/board (for the 3 kids) + Enough cash to live off of for first 3 years of FIRE (I added this last goal just when it became possible and because I had planned to live off of cash within that $3M anyway for a few years so as I thought that would help me not watch the stock market so closely those first couple years.  Looks like I should hit that final goal (a 5% increase in the market would likely do it), but in the end I've chosen a FIRE date based off of work responsibilities and not what I have, so who knows.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on November 20, 2020, 01:57:47 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on November 20, 2020, 01:28:56 PM

Well then you probably should put together a solid estate plan cuz you’re going to leave a lot behind. (Hmmmm. Should probably take more of my own advice.) 

This!!! We are currently dealing with my others halfs mothers estate. Some of it s easy - some of it is a pain in the arse. 4 IRAs? not even big ones. (roll them into one ffs). 8 financial institutions!


The other side of it - when to stop work is something we are still planning. For us its more about straightening out some of the rough edges of our future - like do we want to be landlords. what cars do we need. What are the real answers to healthcare - not just guessing!

a lot we have sorted - not much wasteful spending - got a house we like and is well set for us and various kids/visitors that turn up.
Its the smaller stuff that we have to get to and then we can think about quitting work.


We both ended up being landlords last years kind of accidentally and now we suddenly have issues like trusts and wills and POA's and beneficiaries and stuff to sort out. A little more in the stash would help with travel in the future but its not urgent - and as we can't travel anyway then we have to time to sort the rest.

Now officially in this club on a joint basis - possibly on a liquid basis - still need to sit down and work all that out - when we can reduce the number of banks we are dealing with.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 11:01:35 AM

My spouse and I are going to set up a revocable trust next year and have it be the beneficiary of all our assets. Hopefully that will make distribution easier to relatives when the time comes.

I hate my job, but my profession is changing fast and once I quit it's almost 100% certain the big paychecks and career is over. I am losing the youthful energy to transform myself to keep up, and to deal with corporate kool-aid and politics. However, our lives still have a lot of changes going on with one time expenses (do those ever end though?), so I hope I can hold on for a year or so, but it's going to be painful.

Has anyone in this group done the "barista fire" approach, and how are you finding the experience? I actually want to work, just something that's not nearly as stressful and crazy and let's me be on my feet and move much of the day. I've thought about tutoring math for $15 an hour (yes, that's sitting), or heck even work at like a Amazon or other warehouse. I actually use to do factor work as a teenager and college kid, and didn't mind it. Do your job, you're moving all day and when you leave you can forget work. I do remember though the people in the auto-factory I worked with who did that a life-long career looked like life had beat them up, so gotta be careful not to let on you "don't need the job and are doing it for extra money".

Anyway, anyone go from corporate big career to more of that low paying job just to stay engaged and get that "beer/vacation" money?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on November 21, 2020, 11:42:51 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 11:01:35 AM

My spouse and I are going to set up a revocable trust next year and have it be the beneficiary of all our assets. Hopefully that will make distribution easier to relatives when the time comes.

I hate my job, but my profession is changing fast and once I quit it's almost 100% certain the big paychecks and career is over. I am losing the youthful energy to transform myself to keep up, and to deal with corporate kool-aid and politics. However, our lives still have a lot of changes going on with one time expenses (do those ever end though?), so I hope I can hold on for a year or so, but it's going to be painful.

Has anyone in this group done the "barista fire" approach, and how are you finding the experience? I actually want to work, just something that's not nearly as stressful and crazy and let's me be on my feet and move much of the day. I've thought about tutoring math for $15 an hour (yes, that's sitting), or heck even work at like a Amazon or other warehouse. I actually use to do factor work as a teenager and college kid, and didn't mind it. Do your job, you're moving all day and when you leave you can forget work. I do remember though the people in the auto-factory I worked with who did that a life-long career looked like life had beat them up, so gotta be careful not to let on you "don't need the job and are doing it for extra money".

Anyway, anyone go from corporate big career to more of that low paying job just to stay engaged and get that "beer/vacation" money?

Why take a low paying job? Have you considered doing side gigs or a side biz? Hopefully your boss won’t suck if you’re self employed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 21, 2020, 12:10:48 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 11:01:35 AM

My spouse and I are going to set up a revocable trust next year and have it be the beneficiary of all our assets. Hopefully that will make distribution easier to relatives when the time comes.

Make sure you really research this. You may be over complicating things and it won’t make distributions any easier. Trusts are expensive. They are legal entities that have to be managed and have to file taxes etc. They should only be used in very specific circumstances.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 12:29:27 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 21, 2020, 12:10:48 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 11:01:35 AM

My spouse and I are going to set up a revocable trust next year and have it be the beneficiary of all our assets. Hopefully that will make distribution easier to relatives when the time comes.

Make sure you really research this. You may be over complicating things and it won’t make distributions any easier. Trusts are expensive. They are legal entities that have to be managed and have to file taxes etc. They should only be used in very specific circumstances.

Thanks for the heads up. Our financial advisor is advocating for one. We are a gay couple, no kids, spouse has no beneficiaries on his side, and not sure we want to be the gay couple that leaves everything to my family (they’d hit the jackpot, but we’d leave something to them of course) Our financial advisor thought I’d is cleaner to set up a revocable trust and put all our assets in it. But I’ll go in with eyes wide open and be diligent about costs, taxes, other pros and cons. Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 12:32:56 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on November 21, 2020, 11:42:51 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 11:01:35 AM

My spouse and I are going to set up a revocable trust next year and have it be the beneficiary of all our assets. Hopefully that will make distribution easier to relatives when the time comes.

I hate my job, but my profession is changing fast and once I quit it's almost 100% certain the big paychecks and career is over. I am losing the youthful energy to transform myself to keep up, and to deal with corporate kool-aid and politics. However, our lives still have a lot of changes going on with one time expenses (do those ever end though?), so I hope I can hold on for a year or so, but it's going to be painful.

Has anyone in this group done the "barista fire" approach, and how are you finding the experience? I actually want to work, just something that's not nearly as stressful and crazy and let's me be on my feet and move much of the day. I've thought about tutoring math for $15 an hour (yes, that's sitting), or heck even work at like a Amazon or other warehouse. I actually use to do factor work as a teenager and college kid, and didn't mind it. Do your job, you're moving all day and when you leave you can forget work. I do remember though the people in the auto-factory I worked with who did that a life-long career looked like life had beat them up, so gotta be careful not to let on you "don't need the job and are doing it for extra money".

Anyway, anyone go from corporate big career to more of that low paying job just to stay engaged and get that "beer/vacation" money?

Why take a low paying job? Have you considered doing side gigs or a side biz? Hopefully your boss won’t suck if you’re self employed.

I have thought about side gigs, but I’m jaded on the finance industry (its cold, just engineering numbers to make stockholders money while charging high fees to clients). I’d rather produce something tangible, or help others, and interact with other people. The low paying job isn’t about the low pay, it’s about feeling productive or helping someone else and just staying connected to people.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on November 21, 2020, 12:40:40 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 12:32:56 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on November 21, 2020, 11:42:51 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 11:01:35 AM

My spouse and I are going to set up a revocable trust next year and have it be the beneficiary of all our assets. Hopefully that will make distribution easier to relatives when the time comes.

I hate my job, but my profession is changing fast and once I quit it's almost 100% certain the big paychecks and career is over. I am losing the youthful energy to transform myself to keep up, and to deal with corporate kool-aid and politics. However, our lives still have a lot of changes going on with one time expenses (do those ever end though?), so I hope I can hold on for a year or so, but it's going to be painful.

Has anyone in this group done the "barista fire" approach, and how are you finding the experience? I actually want to work, just something that's not nearly as stressful and crazy and let's me be on my feet and move much of the day. I've thought about tutoring math for $15 an hour (yes, that's sitting), or heck even work at like a Amazon or other warehouse. I actually use to do factor work as a teenager and college kid, and didn't mind it. Do your job, you're moving all day and when you leave you can forget work. I do remember though the people in the auto-factory I worked with who did that a life-long career looked like life had beat them up, so gotta be careful not to let on you "don't need the job and are doing it for extra money".

Anyway, anyone go from corporate big career to more of that low paying job just to stay engaged and get that "beer/vacation" money?

Why take a low paying job? Have you considered doing side gigs or a side biz? Hopefully your boss won’t suck if you’re self employed.

I have thought about side gigs, but I’m jaded on the finance industry (its cold, just engineering numbers to make stockholders money while charging high fees to clients). I’d rather produce something tangible, or help others, and interact with other people. The low paying job isn’t about the low pay, it’s about feeling productive or helping someone else and just staying connected to people.

Seems to me like you’re limiting your expectations. I just heard a podcast the other day about a company that essentially crowdsources loans to home flippers. Good, solid financial stuff that lowers the cost to flippers (needed liquidity) and provides better rates to investors (needed yield). There are win/wins out there although it’s clear to me that most of the finance industry consists of amoral scumbags. So I get why you’d want to get out of the industry. Participating in Disruption is a fun way to stick it to the evil twits.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 21, 2020, 03:10:03 PM

I don’t call it barista FI, but I am considering taking gig jobs at national parks, at ski hills, at REI, maybe even to assist in leading group trips.

I call it being a national park bum.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 21, 2020, 04:23:05 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on November 21, 2020, 03:10:03 PM

I don’t call it barista FI, but I am considering taking gig jobs at national parks, at ski hills, at REI, maybe even to assist in leading group trips.

I call it being a national park bum.

Lot of jobs in Alaska during the tourist season.   Some folks camp out at the parks to save money.   Wish I had known about that when I was in school!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 04:31:11 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on November 21, 2020, 03:10:03 PM

I don’t call it barista FI, but I am considering taking gig jobs at national parks, at ski hills, at REI, maybe even to assist in leading group trips.

I call it being a national park bum.

Sounds awesome, and a very free way to live!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 04:32:56 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on November 21, 2020, 12:40:40 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 12:32:56 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on November 21, 2020, 11:42:51 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 11:01:35 AM

My spouse and I are going to set up a revocable trust next year and have it be the beneficiary of all our assets. Hopefully that will make distribution easier to relatives when the time comes.

I hate my job, but my profession is changing fast and once I quit it's almost 100% certain the big paychecks and career is over. I am losing the youthful energy to transform myself to keep up, and to deal with corporate kool-aid and politics. However, our lives still have a lot of changes going on with one time expenses (do those ever end though?), so I hope I can hold on for a year or so, but it's going to be painful.

Has anyone in this group done the "barista fire" approach, and how are you finding the experience? I actually want to work, just something that's not nearly as stressful and crazy and let's me be on my feet and move much of the day. I've thought about tutoring math for $15 an hour (yes, that's sitting), or heck even work at like a Amazon or other warehouse. I actually use to do factor work as a teenager and college kid, and didn't mind it. Do your job, you're moving all day and when you leave you can forget work. I do remember though the people in the auto-factory I worked with who did that a life-long career looked like life had beat them up, so gotta be careful not to let on you "don't need the job and are doing it for extra money".

Anyway, anyone go from corporate big career to more of that low paying job just to stay engaged and get that "beer/vacation" money?

Why take a low paying job? Have you considered doing side gigs or a side biz? Hopefully your boss won’t suck if you’re self employed.

I have thought about side gigs, but I’m jaded on the finance industry (its cold, just engineering numbers to make stockholders money while charging high fees to clients). I’d rather produce something tangible, or help others, and interact with other people. The low paying job isn’t about the low pay, it’s about feeling productive or helping someone else and just staying connected to people.

Seems to me like you’re limiting your expectations. I just heard a podcast the other day about a company that essentially crowdsources loans to home flippers. Good, solid financial stuff that lowers the cost to flippers (needed liquidity) and provides better rates to investors (needed yield). There are win/wins out there although it’s clear to me that most of the finance industry consists of amoral scumbags. So I get why you’d want to get out of the industry. Participating in Disruption is a fun way to stick it to the evil twits.

I’ve think I heard of the crowdsource funding before, but never researched it. I agree there are surely lots of unique opportunities to do something different and I don’t know what they are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on November 21, 2020, 08:58:38 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 21, 2020, 12:10:48 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 11:01:35 AM

My spouse and I are going to set up a revocable trust next year and have it be the beneficiary of all our assets. Hopefully that will make distribution easier to relatives when the time comes.

Make sure you really research this. You may be over complicating things and it won’t make distributions any easier. Trusts are expensive. They are legal entities that have to be managed and have to file taxes etc. They should only be used in very specific circumstances.

Besides having to file separate taxes what's expensive? 


I have a phone meeting scheduled with our estate attorney this coming week.  I'll ask what level of assets he considers to be the minimum that is worthwhile for creating a Trust.


In 2016 he charged $1200, if my memory is correct, to help with all of my father's estate planning, which consisted of a Will, Trust, Financial PoA, and Medical PoA.  That was in NC.  (I believe his rates may be lower than average.  He works solo, not even a secretary, but is top notch, so his overhead is lower than other attorneys.)  I'm happy to share his contact info privately.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on November 21, 2020, 09:01:52 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on November 21, 2020, 08:58:38 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 21, 2020, 12:10:48 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 11:01:35 AM

My spouse and I are going to set up a revocable trust next year and have it be the beneficiary of all our assets. Hopefully that will make distribution easier to relatives when the time comes.

Make sure you really research this. You may be over complicating things and it won’t make distributions any easier. Trusts are expensive. They are legal entities that have to be managed and have to file taxes etc. They should only be used in very specific circumstances.

Besides having to file separate taxes what's expensive? 


I have a phone meeting scheduled with our estate attorney this coming week.  I'll ask what level of assets he considers to be the minimum that is worthwhile for creating a Trust.


In 2016 he charged $1200, if my memory is correct, to help with all of my father's estate planning, which consisted of a Will, Trust, Financial PoA, and Medical PoA.  That was in NC.  (I believe his rates may be lower than average.  He works solo, not even a secretary, but is top notch, so his overhead is lower than other attorneys.)  I'm happy to share his contact info privately.

We had a trust put together a year or so ago. While it was paid for as a benefit through my husband’s company, I didn’t get the impression it would have cost us more than a few thousand dollars if we had done it ourselves. My family members all have trusts, including my grandmother who only had a few hundred thousand dollars to her name by the time she died.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 21, 2020, 09:35:06 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on November 21, 2020, 08:58:38 PM

Besides having to file separate taxes what's expensive? 

Trust income tax rates are much more aggressive than individual income tax rates.  For example, a trust with $13,050 in taxable income in 2021 is already in the 37% bracket, whereas an individual with that income is in the 12% bracket.  MFJ at that income level is in the 10% bracket.

The standard deduction for a trust is also much smaller - $100 or $600 depending on the kind of trust, vs. $12,550 for an individual, and $25,100 for MFJ.

Trusts can deduct some things, like attorney and tax preparation fees, without any limitation, unlike an individual.  But those income tax brackets probably more than offset this minor advantage.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on November 22, 2020, 12:17:51 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on November 21, 2020, 09:35:06 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on November 21, 2020, 08:58:38 PM

Besides having to file separate taxes what's expensive? 

Trust income tax rates are much more aggressive than individual income tax rates.  For example, a trust with $13,050 in taxable income in 2021 is already in the 37% bracket, whereas an individual with that income is in the 12% bracket.  MFJ at that income level is in the 10% bracket.

The standard deduction for a trust is also much smaller - $100 or $600 depending on the kind of trust, vs. $12,550 for an individual, and $25,100 for MFJ.

Trusts can deduct some things, like attorney and tax preparation fees, without any limitation, unlike an individual.  But those income tax brackets probably more than offset this minor advantage.

Although that's how I read it too, my accountant explained that isn't how it actually works.  The individual rate is the rate used. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 22, 2020, 12:31:51 AM

@BeanCounter et al

Reading through this last little bit of the thread about trusts and such, does anyone have any good advice about how to go about finding the right accountant / tax attorney to make sure my spouse (that has no interest in finance) is comfortable with the idea that I might pass away and leave her 'in charge'?  I really need someone that I can trust and will basically be conservative and protect the money, not take on risk and ultimately leave her (or my heirs) destitute.  The distributed annual funds can be spent on any risky ventures or whatever.

I've been putting this whole thing off probably far too long...  But how do I find a third party that doesn't just want to make a bunch of money while I'm alive moving investments around, criticizing my Mustachian LBYM ethic, etc.?

I'm pursuing lots of avenues (co-workers, other online ideas), but I'm interested to hear if folks here have had luck finding something.  MMM seems to have something like what I'm looking for in 'The Wealthy Accountant' (https://wealthyaccountant.com/)...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 22, 2020, 03:28:52 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on November 20, 2020, 01:37:16 PM

Sounds like us.  Though we were excited by both $1M (b/c it was $1M and it wasn't that many years before we couldn't imagine ever being "millionaires") and $2M (b/c we knew at that point we definitely felt like we could never work again) and celebrated both. 

In the end the final target was $3M + paid off house + 12 years college tuition/room/board (for the 3 kids) + Enough cash to live off of for first 3 years of FIRE (I added this last goal just when it became possible and because I had planned to live off of cash within that $3M anyway for a few years so as I thought that would help me not watch the stock market so closely those first couple years.  Looks like I should hit that final goal (a 5% increase in the market would likely do it), but in the end I've chosen a FIRE date based off of work responsibilities and not what I have, so who knows.

This sounds very familiar! At one point, round about 2005, I recall pondering what it would take for me to feel financially secure. At that time, my goal was college education for the kids, paid off house and at least a million dollars in post-tax savings.

Well, we blew past all of those goals by a wide margin since then.  Finally this year I decided that enough was enough and retired. The tag line on my posts sums up how I feel: "Irgendwann reicht es" which means "At some point it is enough" :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 22, 2020, 07:00:45 AM

The taxation of trusts is interesting, sounds like I need to understand that much better. What I don’t know is how much of assets we put in the trust while my spouse and I are alive, verses the trust being the beneficiary on most of our assets. Maybe that makes a difference?

I’m using a lawyer that specializes in gay clients. Should only cost a couple thousand I think to set up.


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Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on November 22, 2020, 08:14:43 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 22, 2020, 12:31:51 AM

@BeanCounter et al

Reading through this last little bit of the thread about trusts and such, does anyone have any good advice about how to go about finding the right accountant / tax attorney to make sure my spouse (that has no interest in finance) is comfortable with the idea that I might pass away and leave her 'in charge'?  I really need someone that I can trust and will basically be conservative and protect the money, not take on risk and ultimately leave her (or my heirs) destitute.  The distributed annual funds can be spent on any risky ventures or whatever.

I've been putting this whole thing off probably far too long...  But how do I find a third party that doesn't just want to make a bunch of money while I'm alive moving investments around, criticizing my Mustachian LBYM ethic, etc.?

I'm pursuing lots of avenues (co-workers, other online ideas), but I'm interested to hear if folks here have had luck finding something.  MMM seems to have something like what I'm looking for in 'The Wealthy Accountant' (https://wealthyaccountant.com/)...

We named a professional fiduciary to manage the trust in the event of our death. We got the name from a list provided by our attorney. As it was explained to us, nothing happens until the event that both of us die. Only then does this fiduciary step in and manage the financial part of distributing the trust until it is closed out. In the event that we leave mi or children, it would be when they reach majority. The reason for this was we wanted the person we name to care for our children to not also be burdened with all the financial stiff. The fiduciary would take 1% yearly for their effort but that doesn’t kick in until we are both dead. I’m ok paying that to relieve the burden from the person I want focusing on caring for my children.

In the meantime we manage our money exactly as we did prior to setting up the trust. No changes there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on November 22, 2020, 09:08:50 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on November 21, 2020, 03:10:03 PM

I don’t call it barista FI, but I am considering taking gig jobs at national parks, at ski hills, at REI, maybe even to assist in leading group trips.

I call it being a national park bum.

That sounds really fun! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on November 22, 2020, 09:15:05 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on November 22, 2020, 08:14:43 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 22, 2020, 12:31:51 AM

@BeanCounter et al

Reading through this last little bit of the thread about trusts and such, does anyone have any good advice about how to go about finding the right accountant / tax attorney to make sure my spouse (that has no interest in finance) is comfortable with the idea that I might pass away and leave her 'in charge'?  I really need someone that I can trust and will basically be conservative and protect the money, not take on risk and ultimately leave her (or my heirs) destitute.  The distributed annual funds can be spent on any risky ventures or whatever.

I've been putting this whole thing off probably far too long...  But how do I find a third party that doesn't just want to make a bunch of money while I'm alive moving investments around, criticizing my Mustachian LBYM ethic, etc.?

I'm pursuing lots of avenues (co-workers, other online ideas), but I'm interested to hear if folks here have had luck finding something.  MMM seems to have something like what I'm looking for in 'The Wealthy Accountant' (https://wealthyaccountant.com/)...

We named a professional fiduciary to manage the trust in the event of our death. We got the name from a list provided by our attorney. As it was explained to us, nothing happens until the event that both of us die. Only then does this fiduciary step in and manage the financial part of distributing the trust until it is closed out. In the event that we leave mi or children, it would be when they reach majority. The reason for this was we wanted the person we name to care for our children to not also be burdened with all the financial stiff. The fiduciary would take 1% yearly for their effort but that doesn’t kick in until we are both dead. I’m ok paying that to relieve the burden from the person I want focusing on caring for my children.

In the meantime we manage our money exactly as we did prior to setting up the trust. No changes there.

I think you are wise to pay someone to manage your estate on behalf of your minor children.   The financial care of your children is not something that you want to be burdensome. 

We've had a trust for over 10 years.  Our children are no longer minors, so some tweaks are overdue.   Having managed estates or just witnessed the train wrecks, I'd say a Revocable Living Trust is one of the easiest ways to simplify life for those who you've left behind.   We have all the RE in the trust, and just a simple pour over will.   It's very easy to change the distributions (simple codicil) as you'd like, making major OR minor changes as you see fit.   Stocks, annuities and bank accounts can go into the trust or simply have named beneficiaries on the accounts themselves. 

Edited to add:  I think the going rate for a fairly simple Living Trust is still less than $2500.  It would be helpful if you had  a rough list of assets and had an idea of where you'd like them to go.   Then be sure to put the items, such as RE, into the trust.   I once heard the analogy that a trust is like an empty suitcase.  You've got to put the things into it to get them to their destination. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 22, 2020, 10:19:26 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on November 22, 2020, 12:17:51 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on November 21, 2020, 09:35:06 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on November 21, 2020, 08:58:38 PM

Besides having to file separate taxes what's expensive? 

Trust income tax rates are much more aggressive than individual income tax rates.  For example, a trust with $13,050 in taxable income in 2021 is already in the 37% bracket, whereas an individual with that income is in the 12% bracket.  MFJ at that income level is in the 10% bracket.

The standard deduction for a trust is also much smaller - $100 or $600 depending on the kind of trust, vs. $12,550 for an individual, and $25,100 for MFJ.

Trusts can deduct some things, like attorney and tax preparation fees, without any limitation, unlike an individual.  But those income tax brackets probably more than offset this minor advantage.

Although that's how I read it too, my accountant explained that isn't how it actually works.  The individual rate is the rate used.

There is something called DNI, and that is probably what the accountant is referring to.  Basically, if a trust earns income, it can distribute that income to the beneficiaries, where it is taxed on the beneficiaries' return(s) at the beneficiaries' rates and brackets.  But then those funds are outside the trust.  It seems one has to choose between retaining assets/income in the trust and getting taxed aggressively or distributing assets/income to beneficiaries and getting taxed less aggressively.

DNI is calculated on Schedule B of Form 1041 (trust equivalent of Form 1040) and deducted from trust income on line 18 of Form 1041 (2019 version).  It then gets reported to beneficiaries on a Form 1041 Schedule K-1.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 22, 2020, 10:24:22 AM

I'm a CPA, but my knowledge of estates and trusts are from my own personal experience and continuing education classes. I know enough to be dangerous but am by no means an expert. Trust and estate tax law is complicated and this is only a quick outline. And I'm not going to try and cover all the trust types and reasons one might use them. ALSO I am in the United States.
 
In general these days, trusts are used for two reasons
-Complicated estates with multiple beneficiaries and assets like a business, real estate, vacation property or the like. Where you can't just TOD the property to one beneficiary and let them decide what to do with it.

AND/OR- for situations where you want to control assets "from the grave". Meaning the assets don't transfer directly, they go into trust upon your death and then the trustee controls them according to your wishes laid out in your will. This could be for minor children, or to protect assets from a spouse's marriage after your death, or to control assets so that the beneficiaries can only have the income each year and no more-protecting the principle into perpetuity, or for a special needs trust where the beneficiary is also on Medicaid and the assets would make them ineligible for other services/benefits.

It's important to note that you absolutely can pass all of your assets outside of probate with a proper will and TOD/PODs on your accounts and property. (this includes your vehicle, lots of people forget to properly TOD their vehicle and estates end up in probate over a $10k car)
Let me repeat that- YOU CAN TRANSFER ASSETS EASILY OUTSIDE OF A TRUST WITHOUT GOING TO PROBATE. I was the beneficiary of a $1M estate with no trust and I did not have to go to probate. It just takes a little work and proper planning. Remember, estate tax threshold is $11.5M. Very few estates will be subject to estate tax. Estate taxes used to be the one of the big reasons to set up a trust. But with a $11.5M threshold it's usually not necessary.

Setting up a trust is not really expensive but once the assets transfer to the trust it the fiduciary and attorneys will have to get paid to manage it. It's typically around 1% of assets. In the case of a living trust for minors, this would be necessary and worth it. In the case of your spouse, or adult children, maybe not. Each situation is different.

On top of the 1% fees going to fiduciary and attorneys, the trust has to file taxes (and pay for them to be prepared). If the trust fails to distribute all of its income each year, then it is taxed at rates for the trust. AND THEY ARE HIGHER THAN THE INDIVIDUAL RATES. You can look them up easily to see. But if the income is distributed annually to the beneficiaries the income is then taxed as INCOME for each of the beneficiaries. At each beneficiaries rates. Each beneficiary gets a K-1 at year end for their distributions.
I am also the beneficiary of my grandmothers trust and let me tell you this is a pain. That is income that I have ZERO control over. I have to take it and pay the taxes on it like it or not. (or let it stay in the trust and be taxed at 37%) This can make planning for things like the ACA or Medicare complicated. And it has pushed me into another tax bracket several times. Whereas with my investments I can choose not to sell something or harvest losses to cover the capital gains. Also, the trust income is taxed as INCOME not capital gains.

So you need to do your own research and see if the negatives of a trust are worth it. It really depends on what you are trying to achieve. I cringe every time I see someone saying that since they have a lot of assets they NEED a trust. That's simply not true.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 22, 2020, 10:26:17 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on November 22, 2020, 10:19:26 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on November 22, 2020, 12:17:51 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on November 21, 2020, 09:35:06 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on November 21, 2020, 08:58:38 PM

Besides having to file separate taxes what's expensive? 

Trust income tax rates are much more aggressive than individual income tax rates.  For example, a trust with $13,050 in taxable income in 2021 is already in the 37% bracket, whereas an individual with that income is in the 12% bracket.  MFJ at that income level is in the 10% bracket.

The standard deduction for a trust is also much smaller - $100 or $600 depending on the kind of trust, vs. $12,550 for an individual, and $25,100 for MFJ.

Trusts can deduct some things, like attorney and tax preparation fees, without any limitation, unlike an individual.  But those income tax brackets probably more than offset this minor advantage.

Although that's how I read it too, my accountant explained that isn't how it actually works.  The individual rate is the rate used.

There is something called DNI, and that is probably what the accountant is referring to.  Basically, if a trust earns income, it can distribute that income to the beneficiaries, where it is taxed on the beneficiaries' return(s) at the beneficiaries' rates and brackets.  But then those funds are outside the trust.  It seems one has to choose between retaining assets/income in the trust and getting taxed aggressively or distributing assets/income to beneficiaries and getting taxed less aggressively.

DNI is calculated on Schedule B of Form 1041 (trust equivalent of Form 1040) and deducted from trust income on line 18 of Form 1041 (2019 version).  It then gets reported to beneficiaries on a Form 1041 Schedule K-1.

Correct. And the trust still has to pay to have a tax return prepared and filed every year as do the beneficiaries and it's TAXED AS INCOME. Both are disadvantages IMHO.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 22, 2020, 10:28:57 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on November 22, 2020, 09:15:05 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on November 22, 2020, 08:14:43 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 22, 2020, 12:31:51 AM

@BeanCounter et al

Reading through this last little bit of the thread about trusts and such, does anyone have any good advice about how to go about finding the right accountant / tax attorney to make sure my spouse (that has no interest in finance) is comfortable with the idea that I might pass away and leave her 'in charge'?  I really need someone that I can trust and will basically be conservative and protect the money, not take on risk and ultimately leave her (or my heirs) destitute.  The distributed annual funds can be spent on any risky ventures or whatever.

I've been putting this whole thing off probably far too long...  But how do I find a third party that doesn't just want to make a bunch of money while I'm alive moving investments around, criticizing my Mustachian LBYM ethic, etc.?

I'm pursuing lots of avenues (co-workers, other online ideas), but I'm interested to hear if folks here have had luck finding something.  MMM seems to have something like what I'm looking for in 'The Wealthy Accountant' (https://wealthyaccountant.com/)...

We named a professional fiduciary to manage the trust in the event of our death. We got the name from a list provided by our attorney. As it was explained to us, nothing happens until the event that both of us die. Only then does this fiduciary step in and manage the financial part of distributing the trust until it is closed out. In the event that we leave mi or children, it would be when they reach majority. The reason for this was we wanted the person we name to care for our children to not also be burdened with all the financial stiff. The fiduciary would take 1% yearly for their effort but that doesn’t kick in until we are both dead. I’m ok paying that to relieve the burden from the person I want focusing on caring for my children.

In the meantime we manage our money exactly as we did prior to setting up the trust. No changes there.

I think you are wise to pay someone to manage your estate on behalf of your minor children.   The financial care of your children is not something that you want to be burdensome. 

We've had a trust for over 10 years.  Our children are no longer minors, so some tweaks are overdue.   Having managed estates or just witnessed the train wrecks, I'd say a Revocable Living Trust is one of the easiest ways to simplify life for those who you've left behind.   We have all the RE in the trust, and just a simple pour over will.   It's very easy to change the distributions (simple codicil) as you'd like, making major OR minor changes as you see fit.   Stocks, annuities and bank accounts can go into the trust or simply have named beneficiaries on the accounts themselves. 

Edited to add:  I think the going rate for a fairly simple Living Trust is still less than $2500.  It would be helpful if you had  a rough list of assets and had an idea of where you'd like them to go.   Then be sure to put the items, such as RE, into the trust.   I once heard the analogy that a trust is like an empty suitcase.  You've got to put the things into it to get them to their destination.

The easiest way to simplify life for those you've left behind is to name them as a direct beneficiary on each asset and put property as TOD. It saves the expense of the trust. They don't have to go to probate. They just transfer and liquidate each asset as they see fit and they're done.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 22, 2020, 10:40:10 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 22, 2020, 12:31:51 AM

@BeanCounter et al

Reading through this last little bit of the thread about trusts and such, does anyone have any good advice about how to go about finding the right accountant / tax attorney to make sure my spouse (that has no interest in finance) is comfortable with the idea that I might pass away and leave her 'in charge'?  I really need someone that I can trust and will basically be conservative and protect the money, not take on risk and ultimately leave her (or my heirs) destitute.  The distributed annual funds can be spent on any risky ventures or whatever.

I've been putting this whole thing off probably far too long...  But how do I find a third party that doesn't just want to make a bunch of money while I'm alive moving investments around, criticizing my Mustachian LBYM ethic, etc.?

I'm pursuing lots of avenues (co-workers, other online ideas), but I'm interested to hear if folks here have had luck finding something.  MMM seems to have something like what I'm looking for in 'The Wealthy Accountant' (https://wealthyaccountant.com/)...

So you are wanting to control assets from the grave? If that's the case then you need a trust and a fiduciary and you can use a bank or fidelity to do that. But you'll pay. Like 1% maybe a bit more for attorney and tax fees. And your wife will have to go to that fiduciary anytime she needs money beyond the income for the year and ASK FOR IT. I personally would find this offensive and cost prohibitive. You're basically saying you don't trust her to make smart decisions.

My spouse has very little interest in finance. So he needs a PERSON he can call in the event of my death. This is why we don't use Vanguard. We use Fidelity and we qualify for their "Private Client Group" which gives him an advisor he can call to get advice on rebalancing, taking distributions and where to take it from for the best tax advantage. It's free, but you have to do all of the management, they just provide the advice and you do the work. Our advisor has been perfectly supportive of love of index funds. He's given great advice around taxes and drawdown strategy. I think you need something like this PLUS a good tax accountant.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 22, 2020, 10:42:07 AM

So I think I just got scared away from a trust. Not sure why revocable trusts get passed off as easy and something one should do. Our main reason would be to avoid probate. While our estate is large it’s not complicated or unusual by any means. Big reason I was given is to avoid probate.

Bean counter you’re perspective is the first I’ve heard on revocable trusts. Our assets are:

Primary residence
Pretax retirement accounts
A couple Pensions (lump sum option available)
Couple Roths
Deferred comp
Savings
Life insurance policies

Maybe having the trust be the beneficiary of all these accounts and then direct how to distribute is simpler?


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 22, 2020, 10:43:32 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on November 21, 2020, 08:58:38 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 21, 2020, 12:10:48 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 21, 2020, 11:01:35 AM

My spouse and I are going to set up a revocable trust next year and have it be the beneficiary of all our assets. Hopefully that will make distribution easier to relatives when the time comes.

Make sure you really research this. You may be over complicating things and it won’t make distributions any easier. Trusts are expensive. They are legal entities that have to be managed and have to file taxes etc. They should only be used in very specific circumstances.

Besides having to file separate taxes what's expensive? 


I have a phone meeting scheduled with our estate attorney this coming week.  I'll ask what level of assets he considers to be the minimum that is worthwhile for creating a Trust.


In 2016 he charged $1200, if my memory is correct, to help with all of my father's estate planning, which consisted of a Will, Trust, Financial PoA, and Medical PoA.  That was in NC.  (I believe his rates may be lower than average.  He works solo, not even a secretary, but is top notch, so his overhead is lower than other attorneys.)  I'm happy to share his contact info privately.

See my long post. It's not the amount of assets that make it worthwhile or not worthwhile to set up a trust. It's about the kind of assets and how you want them distributed or not distributed to your heirs.
Trusts are expensive because they become an entity that has to be managed by a fiduciary and has to file and pay taxes (on anything not distributed). You have to ask yourself, in the event of my death, for what purpose will this entity serve?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 22, 2020, 10:45:52 AM

I did read thanks. Suzi Orman says we should have one ;-) I appreciate the perspective, definitely making me pause and think.


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 22, 2020, 10:53:04 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 22, 2020, 10:42:07 AM

So I think I just got scared away from a trust. Not sure why revocable trusts get passed off as easy and something one should do. Our main reason would be to avoid probate. While our estate is large it’s not complicated or unusual by any means. Big reason I was given is to avoid probate.

Bean counter you’re perspective is the first I’ve heard on revocable trusts. Our assets are:

Primary residence
Pretax retirement accounts
A couple Pensions (lump sum option available)
Couple Roths
Deferred comp
Savings
Life insurance policies

Maybe having the trust be the beneficiary of all these accounts and then direct how to distribute is simpler?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How many beneficiaries do you have and how do you want things split?  I mean I believe you can pass all of those outside of probate without a trust. The trust ABSOLUTELY makes it more complicated and time consuming. It might be worth it depending on what you want to achieve.
I believe in each of the items listed above you can just name a beneficiary (or two, or four or whatever) and then the executor just calls and submits your death certificate and will to each and it's distributed. Obviously primary resident is a bit more complicated if your splitting that between beneficiaries.
You just need to go see an attorney (or two) and tell them you want a will and estate plan that does not include a trust and will bypass probate.
(also- the pension will have rules of its own depends if it's your spouse or child. My mother's pension gave me a small payout upon her death and then was done) She had every one of the assets you named, except for deferred comp and we transferred them without a trust outside of probate. I was executor. Took me about 8 weeks, but I did have to file her personal taxes after her death as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 22, 2020, 10:54:18 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 22, 2020, 10:45:52 AM

I did read thanks. Suzi Orman says we should have one ;-) I appreciate the perspective, definitely making me pause and think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And Suzi Orman received a kick back from the financial industry to tell you that. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 22, 2020, 12:12:08 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 22, 2020, 10:24:22 AM

Let me repeat that- YOU CAN TRANSFER ASSETS EASILY OUTSIDE OF A TRUST WITHOUT GOING TO PROBATE.

While this is generally true - most assets can transfer via beneficiary designation, TOD, POD, community property, or successor custodianship - there are some cases in some states where it is not true.  In my state, for example, real property such as houses and cars owned by a decedent must go through probate because my state does not permit TOD/POD on those types of assets.  (Or at least, it did not allow it when I last looked a few years ago.)

But your general point is true.  A $100M IRA at Vanguard can pass via beneficiary designation very easily.  A $100M bank account can pass via TOD very easily.  It's not the size of the assets but the type of account and what your state allows for non-probate transfer methods.

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 22, 2020, 10:42:07 AM

So I think I just got scared away from a trust. Not sure why revocable trusts get passed off as easy and something one should do. Our main reason would be to avoid probate. While our estate is large it’s not complicated or unusual by any means. Big reason I was given is to avoid probate.

Bean counter you’re perspective is the first I’ve heard on revocable trusts. Our assets are:

Primary residence
Pretax retirement accounts
A couple Pensions (lump sum option available)
Couple Roths
Deferred comp
Savings
Life insurance policies

Maybe having the trust be the beneficiary of all these accounts and then direct how to distribute is simpler?

I agree with @BeanCounter's reply to your post above.  If you can name a trust as beneficiary or TOD for any of these, you very likely can also use that same mechanism to name a beneficiary / transferee.  I also emphatically agree that having a trust as the intermediate beneficiary is more complicated, slower, and more expensive.

You may want to investigate transferring the life insurance into an ILIT.  That way your beneficiaries own the policy, not you.  This is advantageous as it gets the proceeds of the life insurance out of your estate, and thus reduces your estate tax exposure.  Although again, an ILIT involves setting it up with an attorney, so depending on how much life insurance and your overall exposure to the estate tax (probably low now, but they're talking about lowering the estate tax exemption federally, and your state and your beneficiaries' states might also impose inheritance and/or estate taxes), it may or may not be worth it to do so.

As noted above, your state may or may not let you add TOD/POD on your primary residence.  My state doesn't allow it but other states do, so I'm not sure how common or uncommon that aspect is.

An aspect of a trust that *might* be helpful is the ability to have more complicated distribution setups.  In my case, I have three kids and when I die they each get one third of each account.  This is easy to do without a trust and still avoid probate.  If you want a family vacation home to stay in the family, or you want to set it up so that your kids get money at certain times, or want to let someone live in a property until they die and then have the property get sold, then those more complicated things might require a trust just to establish those rules / timeframes / oversight / etc.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on November 23, 2020, 10:25:47 AM

I wonder if we are talking about different types of trusts and getting ourselves confused? We have a revocable living trust, same as my parents and my aunt & uncle and my grandmother before she died. There are no ongoing maintenance fees, it just cost money with a lawyer to set it up initially. It is pretty much a pass-through entity for taxes and we file our tax returns as individuals using our SSNs, with the same tax rates as before. I double checked with my mother (CPA) today just to make sure I wasn't misremembering or otherwise getting it wrong.

My father was the executor of my grandmother's trust and it was fairly straightforward to close out. Then again, she didn't have that many assets and they made sure that all the assets she did have were inside the trust before she died.

As for the fiduciary to handle things once we die, we had initially thought that Vanguard would be a good choice. Our lawyer explained that the services Vanguard would provide is for money management, like actively managing the portfolio. The person we chose is called a fiduciary successor trustee more full service stuff like filling out all the paperwork and disbursing money to pay for the care of our children per the stipulations we set out in the trust. The idea is that they take care of all the legal and logistical stuff so the guardian caring for the kids doesn't have to think about any of it.

I am definitely not a lawyer and definitely don't understand all the fine points of trusts and whatnot. I am only sharing what my personal experience is and what I have seen with my family members.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 23, 2020, 11:07:33 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 22, 2020, 10:40:10 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 22, 2020, 12:31:51 AM

@BeanCounter et al

Reading through this last little bit of the thread about trusts and such, does anyone have any good advice about how to go about finding the right accountant / tax attorney to make sure my spouse (that has no interest in finance) is comfortable with the idea that I might pass away and leave her 'in charge'?  I really need someone that I can trust and will basically be conservative and protect the money, not take on risk and ultimately leave her (or my heirs) destitute.  The distributed annual funds can be spent on any risky ventures or whatever.

I've been putting this whole thing off probably far too long...  But how do I find a third party that doesn't just want to make a bunch of money while I'm alive moving investments around, criticizing my Mustachian LBYM ethic, etc.?

I'm pursuing lots of avenues (co-workers, other online ideas), but I'm interested to hear if folks here have had luck finding something.  MMM seems to have something like what I'm looking for in 'The Wealthy Accountant' (https://wealthyaccountant.com/)...

So you are wanting to control assets from the grave? If that's the case then you need a trust and a fiduciary and you can use a bank or fidelity to do that. But you'll pay. Like 1% maybe a bit more for attorney and tax fees. And your wife will have to go to that fiduciary anytime she needs money beyond the income for the year and ASK FOR IT. I personally would find this offensive and cost prohibitive. You're basically saying you don't trust her to make smart decisions.

My spouse has very little interest in finance. So he needs a PERSON he can call in the event of my death. This is why we don't use Vanguard. We use Fidelity and we qualify for their "Private Client Group" which gives him an advisor he can call to get advice on rebalancing, taking distributions and where to take it from for the best tax advantage. It's free, but you have to do all of the management, they just provide the advice and you do the work. Our advisor has been perfectly supportive of love of index funds. He's given great advice around taxes and drawdown strategy. I think you need something like this PLUS a good tax accountant.

Thanks for all the info.  I definitely don't WANT my spouse to feel like she is being put on financial probation.  On the flip side, you hear about sweet old ladies being ripped off by scammers and contractors here all the time.  God love her, she is such a soft heart and pays for things up front - I can totally see her trusting a contractor and paying too many bills early (because he needs to buy materials, and had a project go bad, and needs float, etc.).  It's also a bit sad to admit, but if she got scammed for 20 or 30k, she probably wouldn't tell anybody.

Most of our assets can be handled using beneficiaries and it's a good reminder to update my will for property that has changed.  Also it's just helpful to discuss this stuff, I should definitely spend more time with the spouse and kids educating them on how to handle money, but right now they have very little interest.  I just want to ensure there isn't some colossal mistake made like withdrawing too much too quickly or moving a 401k to after tax not realizing the tax implications.

I'll need to study up more on this Revocable Living Trust idea.  I bank with Chase (Preferred Client, although I avoid talking too them when they call me) and have a lot of assets with Vanguard, would either of these be the right place to start the search for a fiduciary?  I see a lot of people referencing Fidelity (which my Dad also uses).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 23, 2020, 02:05:55 PM

The revocable living trust is what I was talking about. Not sure if that is also what Bean Counter is referring to or a different type of trust.


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 23, 2020, 05:51:06 PM

Nope. I’m not getting confused. :) though it is a confusing topic. Your “revocable living trust” becomes irrevocable upon your (the grantors) death. At that point it’s its own living, breathing taxable entity. Until the trustee distributes all the assets and closes down the trust. In the case of the old school A, B trusts that were set up to try and bypass estate taxes, the estate is split and when one spouse dies their assets go into trust “for the benefit” of the surviving spouse and beneficiaries, but that trust stays as a living breathing entity for the rest of the surviving spouse’s life. So you can see in that case you’ve essentially lost control of the trust. It’s making distributions, filing taxes and incurring fiduciary expenses for as long as the surviving spouse is alive.

Trusts are not wrong. They aren’t a scam. But in many cases they aren’t needed. If you ask an attorney or a financial advisor if you need one, they’ll likely say yes because why not? Just like if I ask someone in insurance if I need life insurance they’ll say yes. But my own personal NW (I don’t count the trust I’m beneficiary of FWIW) is >$3M. Do I really need life insurance, no. Can it hurt to have it, no.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 23, 2020, 06:00:41 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 23, 2020, 11:07:33 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 22, 2020, 10:40:10 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 22, 2020, 12:31:51 AM

@BeanCounter et al

Reading through this last little bit of the thread about trusts and such, does anyone have any good advice about how to go about finding the right accountant / tax attorney to make sure my spouse (that has no interest in finance) is comfortable with the idea that I might pass away and leave her 'in charge'?  I really need someone that I can trust and will basically be conservative and protect the money, not take on risk and ultimately leave her (or my heirs) destitute.  The distributed annual funds can be spent on any risky ventures or whatever.

I've been putting this whole thing off probably far too long...  But how do I find a third party that doesn't just want to make a bunch of money while I'm alive moving investments around, criticizing my Mustachian LBYM ethic, etc.?

I'm pursuing lots of avenues (co-workers, other online ideas), but I'm interested to hear if folks here have had luck finding something.  MMM seems to have something like what I'm looking for in 'The Wealthy Accountant' (https://wealthyaccountant.com/)...

So you are wanting to control assets from the grave? If that's the case then you need a trust and a fiduciary and you can use a bank or fidelity to do that. But you'll pay. Like 1% maybe a bit more for attorney and tax fees. And your wife will have to go to that fiduciary anytime she needs money beyond the income for the year and ASK FOR IT. I personally would find this offensive and cost prohibitive. You're basically saying you don't trust her to make smart decisions.

My spouse has very little interest in finance. So he needs a PERSON he can call in the event of my death. This is why we don't use Vanguard. We use Fidelity and we qualify for their "Private Client Group" which gives him an advisor he can call to get advice on rebalancing, taking distributions and where to take it from for the best tax advantage. It's free, but you have to do all of the management, they just provide the advice and you do the work. Our advisor has been perfectly supportive of love of index funds. He's given great advice around taxes and drawdown strategy. I think you need something like this PLUS a good tax accountant.

Thanks for all the info.  I definitely don't WANT my spouse to feel like she is being put on financial probation.  On the flip side, you hear about sweet old ladies being ripped off by scammers and contractors here all the time.  God love her, she is such a soft heart and pays for things up front - I can totally see her trusting a contractor and paying too many bills early (because he needs to buy materials, and had a project go bad, and needs float, etc.).  It's also a bit sad to admit, but if she got scammed for 20 or 30k, she probably wouldn't tell anybody.

Most of our assets can be handled using beneficiaries and it's a good reminder to update my will for property that has changed.  Also it's just helpful to discuss this stuff, I should definitely spend more time with the spouse and kids educating them on how to handle money, but right now they have very little interest.  I just want to ensure there isn't some colossal mistake made like withdrawing too much too quickly or moving a 401k to after tax not realizing the tax implications.

I'll need to study up more on this Revocable Living Trust idea.  I bank with Chase (Preferred Client, although I avoid talking too them when they call me) and have a lot of assets with Vanguard, would either of these be the right place to start the search for a fiduciary?  I see a lot of people referencing Fidelity (which my Dad also uses).

If you discuss this with your spouse and she says “yes, I want the assets in trust and I want to pay someone to manage it all because I don’t trust myself and don’t want to make a mistake.” then fine do it. But if my spouse talked about me as you did above, basically saying I’m just so nice I’m stupid, I’d face punch him and then kick him in the balls. I mean does your wife have a actual cognitive impairment, or do you just think these things because she’s a women?
I mean that with love. Just calling you out to reevaluate your thinking.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 23, 2020, 08:00:43 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 23, 2020, 06:00:41 PM

If you discuss this with your spouse and she says “yes, I want the assets in trust and I want to pay someone to manage it all because I don’t trust myself and don’t want to make a mistake.” then fine do it. But if my spouse talked about me as you did above, basically saying I’m just so nice I’m stupid, I’d face punch him and then kick him in the balls. I mean does your wife have a actual cognitive impairment, or do you just think these things because she’s a women?
I mean that with love. Just calling you out to reevaluate your thinking.

I knew I'd take flak for that, I've been blasted many times on this forum for similar statements, but we have arrangements that work just fine and she does not complain and feels very fortunate.  There's a lot of nuance that gets lost when I discuss these things, but why dance around it and write a novel when our arrangements and backstory is not the point.  For instance, she does not trust herself with millions of dollars in retirement accounts and she has been scammed by contractors to the tune of a few thousand just last year.  She didn't know she'd been scammed (I was working overseas a lot in 2019), and she knew that the demands for more money to finish the job didn't seem right, but he said he underestimated the job, was losing money, yadda, yadda...

Anyway, I do appreciate the help you have given me and of course I don't think anyone is stupid, just not interested in managing finances and not hardnosed when it comes to financial transactions.  Suddenly having lots of millions of dollars and no one that she trusts to give her answers are way up there when it comes to shit she does not want to deal with, and she will tell you that point blank.  If I live long enough and interest rates ever go up, I'll turn a chunk of our retirement funds into an annuity because she would love nothing more than to have a perpetual paycheck to simplify the money stuff and let her focus on her passions, interests, and hobbies.

I also worry that she may also worry too much about spending and needlessly deprive herself, but this probably isn't the forum to talk about that either :)  And the big issue about that is that we have one child that is currently a spendthrift and it would suck to dump millions into her lap too soon.  I'm hoping that the real world teaches her the value of a dollar and gives me a chance to impart wisdom about how to grow or at least conserve her stache as opposed to living paycheck to paycheck and going on windfall spending sprees.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on November 25, 2020, 05:23:44 PM

For young, spendthrift types, getting a bunch of unearned money can derail them more than you'd think.      I know 2 people who essentially are counting on inheritances to bail them out.  They've literally always known the money is coming someday, and arranged their lives accordingly.   For an older person or spouse who is not really financially savvy, I think it's good to have those tough conversations.  It's a big responsibility and there are financial predators out there.

It's just a shame that money wherewithal is so tough to pass down or teach.  Why, I don't know... In the best "lead a horse to water" style, I send my kids, close friends and spouse various interesting articles-- MMM and the like-- about getting ahead, saving, growing wealth, etc.   It just doesn't hold their interest the way it does mine.  Only one member of our immediate family seems to have that type of drive. 

My husband is all about the work, I'm all about getting ahead.   I like the challenge of money making money, of making something out of very little, of spotting and developing opportunities.      When we first met, his relatively small business was owed 10's of thousands of IOU's. He used to deliver a product and not be willing to spend the time to send the bill.   No invoices, no delivery signatures, etc.  Months would go by.   I was appalled, since he worked so tremendously hard, and yet... isn't the money the whole idea?  I stopped bankrolling the customers, and bill collected the debts for a couple of years until we got (mostly) paid.

 In a nutshell, if I predecease him, I have no idea how our estate will go.   It's a big estate now, and hopefully he'd simplify it if we hadn't already.  Money management is not his thing.    He could live much more simply/frugally, and on far less, than we currently own. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 25, 2020, 06:50:12 PM

My life is definitely one with Mustachian problems.  When we were in the million net worth category, I didn't worry so much about DW feeling overwhelmed by the financial decisions or the kids getting too much too soon, but now that the estate is over $4M and growing, I worry more about her feeling stressed out or the wrong person taking advantage of her trust.  I'm perfectly relaxed with moving hundreds of thousands around, gaming out tax strategies, and all of the various optimizations that save us tens of thousands and match our risk tolerance to our goals.  We are a great team, but neither of us are as good at life individually...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on November 26, 2020, 05:10:31 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 25, 2020, 06:50:12 PM

My life is definitely one with Mustachian problems.  When we were in the million net worth category, I didn't worry so much about DW feeling overwhelmed by the financial decisions or the kids getting too much too soon, but now that the estate is over $4M and growing, I worry more about her feeling stressed out or the wrong person taking advantage of her trust.  I'm perfectly relaxed with moving hundreds of thousands around, gaming out tax strategies, and all of the various optimizations that save us tens of thousands and match our risk tolerance to our goals.  We are a great team, but neither of us are as good at life individually...

Why not leave an instruction manual behind?  Folks leave a will, which is good, but some folks need detailed instructions. If a company can have a emergency action plan, why can’t an individual? There are templates out there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 26, 2020, 06:31:14 PM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on November 26, 2020, 05:10:31 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 25, 2020, 06:50:12 PM

My life is definitely one with Mustachian problems.  When we were in the million net worth category, I didn't worry so much about DW feeling overwhelmed by the financial decisions or the kids getting too much too soon, but now that the estate is over $4M and growing, I worry more about her feeling stressed out or the wrong person taking advantage of her trust.  I'm perfectly relaxed with moving hundreds of thousands around, gaming out tax strategies, and all of the various optimizations that save us tens of thousands and match our risk tolerance to our goals.  We are a great team, but neither of us are as good at life individually...

Why not leave an instruction manual behind?  Folks leave a will, which is good, but some folks need detailed instructions. If a company can have a emergency action plan, why can’t an individual? There are templates out there.

I've written a 6 page guide for our son and my wife.
Headings include:

Contacts.   (Accountant, key relatives, Attorney, etc.)

Things To Do.  (Contact friends and put in a change of address for us to our son's home, both right away and at the end of the next two years so important mail comes to their home.)

In Our House.  (Stuff in our house they will need like papers, etc.)

Land  (List of properties owned, Property management company or business partners and gist of any outstanding deals.)

Banks  (What banks we have accounts in and the names they are under.)

Investment Accounts (Where we have our stocks and bonds, etc.)

Insurance (What companies we have policies with and what kind they are.)

Accounts Receivable (Who owes us money, example, someone pays us mortgage payments for a property we sold them.)

Liabilities (Who we owe money to, used to include our mortgage (paid off!!), any outstanding business deals we owe money on.  I don't worry about routine things that will get invoiced every month, that sorts itself out easily enough.)

Bequests (Mandatory bequests are in our will, this includes what to do with stuff such as our books, tools, craft supplies, etc. if they don't want them and don't need to sell them.)

Burial Plans (What our preferences are so they know.)

And, lastly, Money and Investment Advice.

I'll include most of the text on this one as it's pretty generic:

"Don’t give financial advisors the ability to embezzle your money.

Most financial advisors are not advisors, they are salespeople paid on commission.  They are paid more if they steer you into investments that make their employer rich.  You want an advisor that has a “fiduciary responsibility” to you.  That phrase is really important so double check and get it in writing that it’s part of their business relationship to you.   Pay them a fee for their time not a percentage of what you own.

Keep your account passwords and control of your accounts in your own hands.

Financial advisors are useful but there’s nothing they will do for you that you can’t easily learn to do yourself.   Take the time to learn about money and investments.  Think of it as your job.  If you don’t do that someone else can legally skim a lot of the earnings off your investments.  If you can already add, subtract, multiply and divide and get the right answer most of the time, there’s nothing about this you can’t easily learn to do.

Fees matter a lot more than intuitively obvious.  Learn about compound growth and the astounding effect of a 1% difference in fees on how much your investment will be worth in 20 years.  Hint: it’s not just 1%, it’s a whole hell of a lot more!

Don’t be fearful and don’t be greedy.  Inflation is guaranteed to steal your wealth over time.   So a lot of the investments people think are “safe” actually aren’t safe over long time periods but they are usually safe for a short period of time.   The purchasing power of money in a savings deposit earning 1% is being lost every day because inflation averages 3%.  When SwordGuy was a kid gas was $0.26 a gallon!l     Don’t confuse risk with volatility.   Buying a mutual fund composed of hundreds of top notch companies is a volatile investment (the value can fluctuate quite a bit from day to day) but it’s not risky.  It’s actually safer than the savings account if your time horizon for needing the money is 10 years out. 

That 5 year, 10 year, 20 year and 30 year time horizon is an important skill to learn.  Regular folks stuck with just wages for income don’t typically think that way and their lack of wealth (often despite high incomes) demonstrates that.   

Read JL Collin’s book A Simple Path to Wealth to learn about investing.  It’s short, simple, and teaches you what you need to learn with a minimum of fuss and bother.

Don’t panic when the news spreads fear, uncertainty and doubt about the stock market.    They do that all the time, it’s good for ratings.  Just hold onto the stocks and wait until prices recover.

The average person doesn’t know a damn thing about investing and common wisdom about investing that they hold is often dead wrong.   Don’t take financial advice from broke people (except possibly if it’s “Damn, I did this stupid thing, don’t do that!”).  Broke people with middle class (or better) incomes are broke because they don’t know how to build or keep wealth despite jobs that provide the income to do so. 

Diversify so that all your eggs aren’t in one basket. 

Learn to think in terms of income streams.   When a poor person gets a windfall, they often (rightly) focus on paying off what they owe and then (wrongly) focus on spending what’s left over.  When a middle class person gets a windfall they often spend it on something they think is an asset but is actually a liability.  An example would be a fancy new car.   A new car loses a lot of its value the moment it’s driven off the dealer’s lot and expensive ones come with higher taxes and insurance and monthly payment costs.  It’s not an asset, it’s a financial millstone.  (And if it’s a gas guzzler, it comes with higher gas bills too!)  When wealthy people get a windfall, they often turn that money into an “income stream”.  An income stream provides steady income for the future.  Example.  Middle class person gets $60,000 and buys a $60,000 car for cash.  Taxes and insurance are now much higher so those items are a drag on future wealth building activities.  A wealthy person might buy a rental house and rent it out for a profit.  That rent is an income stream.   They then use that profit to buy their vehicle.  In ten years when both vehicles need to be replaced, the wealthy person still has an income stream to pay for their replacement vehicles for the rest of their life.  (Of course, a smarter wealthy person would buy a much more economical vehicle! 😊 )  If you want a luxury that will require an ongoing expense, set up an income stream that will provide those funds in the future."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on November 27, 2020, 06:31:30 AM

Ok found it. There are family emergency binders that you can put together. I remember hearing about them on the choose FI podcast. You can get the template at http://smartmoneymamas.com/ice-binder/

I should follow my own advice and do one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 27, 2020, 07:11:49 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 23, 2020, 08:00:43 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 23, 2020, 06:00:41 PM

If you discuss this with your spouse and she says “yes, I want the assets in trust and I want to pay someone to manage it all because I don’t trust myself and don’t want to make a mistake.” then fine do it. But if my spouse talked about me as you did above, basically saying I’m just so nice I’m stupid, I’d face punch him and then kick him in the balls. I mean does your wife have a actual cognitive impairment, or do you just think these things because she’s a women?
I mean that with love. Just calling you out to reevaluate your thinking.

I knew I'd take flak for that, I've been blasted many times on this forum for similar statements, but we have arrangements that work just fine and she does not complain and feels very fortunate.  There's a lot of nuance that gets lost when I discuss these things, but why dance around it and write a novel when our arrangements and backstory is not the point.  For instance, she does not trust herself with millions of dollars in retirement accounts and she has been scammed by contractors to the tune of a few thousand just last year.  She didn't know she'd been scammed (I was working overseas a lot in 2019), and she knew that the demands for more money to finish the job didn't seem right, but he said he underestimated the job, was losing money, yadda, yadda...

Anyway, I do appreciate the help you have given me and of course I don't think anyone is stupid, just not interested in managing finances and not hardnosed when it comes to financial transactions.  Suddenly having lots of millions of dollars and no one that she trusts to give her answers are way up there when it comes to shit she does not want to deal with, and she will tell you that point blank.  If I live long enough and interest rates ever go up, I'll turn a chunk of our retirement funds into an annuity because she would love nothing more than to have a perpetual paycheck to simplify the money stuff and let her focus on her passions, interests, and hobbies.

I also worry that she may also worry too much about spending and needlessly deprive herself, but this probably isn't the forum to talk about that either :)  And the big issue about that is that we have one child that is currently a spendthrift and it would suck to dump millions into her lap too soon.  I'm hoping that the real world teaches her the value of a dollar and gives me a chance to impart wisdom about how to grow or at least conserve her stache as opposed to living paycheck to paycheck and going on windfall spending sprees.

@EscapeVelocity2020 I'm glad you didn't take my sharp words too hard. From what you shared it sounds like it might make sense for you to get a trust set up. There are lots of things you can do with a trust. The trustee will even pay bills for your wife if that's what you want. You can set it up so that the principal remains for generations, and protect your assets from you child's future marriage etc.
But remember, nothing can save you from fraud and theft like education. Trustees change jobs, retire, banks get absorbed etc. There are no guarantees that you can just find someone that will take care of everything for you.
Having money is certainly helpful, but it can also be a burden because it comes with responsibility. Like it or not.
I grew up with a few trust fund kids, and some of them live poor to this day. No ambition to have a successful career, they live pay check to pay check and when their semi annual trust check comes they spend it on a new car, clothes or the latest technology. When they wanted to buy a house, they went to the trustee and asked for money for a down payment, when the realtor talked them into a bigger house, they went back to the trustee and asked for more.
One last thing to consider- perhaps your daughter's spendthrift ways are directly related to your wife's attitude toward money (i.e.- "it comes, it goes, my husband takes care of it, I don't want to/can't deal with that) Something to think about.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 27, 2020, 03:41:01 PM

Yeah I had sympathy to @EscapeVelocity2020 position.. I certainly don't want to come across as some awful misogynist but my DW is in a similar position.. i.e Money is just not her thing*.

I have a "book of secrets (BOS)" where all the money strategy is written down (but no user names or passwords).

We then also have a password vault that provides access to each of our accounts. DW then has to remember just one password. We also have a close friend (younger than us) who is a PhD economist and does all her family finance and is also FIRED.

The plan is if I croak, DW takes the BOS and the password to said friend and it will be a 5 minute job to see what is drawn from where and why.

*When I say "Not her thing".. I mean its REALLY not her thing! She has no idea of our NW and only a faint idea of what institutions its invested with. If you were to ask her the difference between a Roth vs traditional IRA she wouldn't have the first clue even though I have tried to explain several times. This is not a complaint on my part, although I would dearly love her to be involved she just isn't interested and I have just have to accept thats the way it is.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on November 27, 2020, 09:11:18 PM

This frothy stock market has caused my liquid investments to climb to just shy of $2.1 million. 

I am still working, and I took on a part time job as a Shipt shopper, I shop for groceries and deliver them to someone's home. Basically, I'm a glorified pizza delivery person.

In other news this past Thursday I became a participant in the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine trial. And I definitely got an injection of the vaccine because I got the usual symptoms from a vaccination, a feeling like a cold was coming on, but this feeling only lasted a day. In mid-December I go back for a booster shot.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 27, 2020, 10:25:57 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 27, 2020, 09:11:18 PM

This frothy stock market has caused my liquid investments to climb to just shy of $2.1 million. 
...

I keep hearing folks are at all time highs.  I haven't checked the numbers lately but I'm almost nervous, it seems absurd how the snowball keeps growing once it gets going in earnest.  Compounding is ridiculously effective.  But there is still a vestige of my younger, less wise self that keeps thinking that surely, SURELY the covid and unemployment numbers will cause something bad to happen in the economy and ultimately the stock markets to fall, but it now looks like we will end 2020 with respectable 10+% gains and still very little inflation.  This really has been a crazy year!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 28, 2020, 06:02:36 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 27, 2020, 09:11:18 PM

This frothy stock market has caused my liquid investments to climb to just shy of $2.1 million. 

I am still working, and I took on a part time job as a Shipt shopper, I shop for groceries and deliver them to someone's home. Basically, I'm a glorified pizza delivery person.

In other news this past Thursday I became a participant in the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine trial. And I definitely got an injection of the vaccine because I got the usual symptoms from a vaccination, a feeling like a cold was coming on, but this feeling only lasted a day. In mid-December I go back for a booster shot.

How do you like the Shipt Shoppr gig? God I don’t have the courage to quit the McCorp job I hate. This week off for Thanksgiving has been awesome, I just shut the laptop last Friday and have refused to log into the portal of hell this week. I wouldn’t mind a gig job to feel productive and earn fun money.

Our NW has now blown past 2.5m and seems to good to be true.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on November 28, 2020, 06:33:31 AM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 27, 2020, 09:11:18 PM

I am still working, and I took on a part time job as a Shipt shopper, I shop for groceries and deliver them to someone's home. Basically, I'm a glorified pizza delivery person.

This seems like a great part-time & short-term gig for otherwise FIREd folks wanting to pick up some additional income and feel safe doing it.  How do you like this?  Are you typically in control of hours?  Can/Do customers tip? (that seems like it could be a great addition to income in the right areas).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 28, 2020, 09:53:36 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 27, 2020, 03:41:01 PM

Yeah I had sympathy to @EscapeVelocity2020 position.. I certainly don't want to come across as some awful misogynist but my DW is in a similar position.. i.e Money is just not her thing*.

I have a "book of secrets (BOS)" where all the money strategy is written down (but no user names or passwords).

We then also have a password vault that provides access to each of our accounts. DW then has to remember just one password. We also have a close friend (younger than us) who is a PhD economist and does all her family finance and is also FIRED.

The plan is if I croak, DW takes the BOS and the password to said friend and it will be a 5 minute job to see what is drawn from where and why.

*When I say "Not her thing".. I mean its REALLY not her thing! She has no idea of our NW and only a faint idea of what institutions its invested with. If you were to ask her the difference between a Roth vs traditional IRA she wouldn't have the first clue even though I have tried to explain several times. This is not a complaint on my part, although I would dearly love her to be involved she just isn't interested and I have just have to accept thats the way it is.

IMHO there is a big difference though between having a spouse who is not interested in investments and deciding to protect assets FROM THEM by putting them into a trust. Which is what Escape was suggesting he thought he might need to do. My spouse is not into investment strategy or any kind of long term planning. I do all of that. And it would no doubt be difficult if I died before him and he had to deal with those sorts of things. But that doesn't make him incapable. It doesn't mean I need to shield assets from him. He might make a few mistakes along the way, but I trust that he'll find his way and reach out to professionals if he needs help. If he were to decide that he wants to put it all into a managed account so he doesn't have to do anything but have an annual review then he can pay for that. I'm not going to make that choice for him.

Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 28, 2020, 10:00:07 AM

My husband has no interest in investments and talking money with him is 100 times harder than talking sex. That’s why we got a financial advisor, he’s more of a financial counselor/referee. I trust the advisor would guide my spouse upon my demise :-)

The trust was more about how should rich gay uncles (us) with no children have our wealth distributed upon our death. We don’t want to rule from the grave, but we also don’t want bickering and lawsuits. We want it clear and simple, end of story. We will talk with a lawyer early next year to see if a trust will help with that.

Or maybe I should just retire now and start spending it :-p


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 28, 2020, 12:30:07 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 28, 2020, 10:00:07 AM

My husband has no interest in investments and talking money with him is 100 times harder than talking sex. That’s why we got a financial advisor, he’s more of a financial counselor/referee. I trust the advisor would guide my spouse upon my demise :-)

The trust was more about how should rich gay uncles (us) with no children have our wealth distributed upon our death. We don’t want to rule from the grave, but we also don’t want bickering and lawsuits. We want it clear and simple, end of story. We will talk with a lawyer early next year to see if a trust will help with that.

Or maybe I should just retire now and start spending it :-p

Winner winner, chicken dinner!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on November 28, 2020, 02:25:41 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 28, 2020, 10:00:07 AM

My husband has no interest in investments and talking money with him is 100 times harder than talking sex.

Good, one person in the couple can take care of the money just as well 100% by themselves (no comment if the other is true).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 28, 2020, 03:59:23 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 28, 2020, 09:53:36 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 27, 2020, 03:41:01 PM

Yeah I had sympathy to @EscapeVelocity2020 position.. I certainly don't want to come across as some awful misogynist but my DW is in a similar position.. i.e Money is just not her thing*.

I have a "book of secrets (BOS)" where all the money strategy is written down (but no user names or passwords).

We then also have a password vault that provides access to each of our accounts. DW then has to remember just one password. We also have a close friend (younger than us) who is a PhD economist and does all her family finance and is also FIRED.

The plan is if I croak, DW takes the BOS and the password to said friend and it will be a 5 minute job to see what is drawn from where and why.

*When I say "Not her thing".. I mean its REALLY not her thing! She has no idea of our NW and only a faint idea of what institutions its invested with. If you were to ask her the difference between a Roth vs traditional IRA she wouldn't have the first clue even though I have tried to explain several times. This is not a complaint on my part, although I would dearly love her to be involved she just isn't interested and I have just have to accept thats the way it is.

IMHO there is a big difference though between having a spouse who is not interested in investments and deciding to protect assets FROM THEM by putting them into a trust. Which is what Escape was suggesting he thought he might need to do. My spouse is not into investment strategy or any kind of long term planning. I do all of that. And it would no doubt be difficult if I died before him and he had to deal with those sorts of things. But that doesn't make him incapable. It doesn't mean I need to shield assets from him. He might make a few mistakes along the way, but I trust that he'll find his way and reach out to professionals if he needs help. If he were to decide that he wants to put it all into a managed account so he doesn't have to do anything but have an annual review then he can pay for that. I'm not going to make that choice for him.

I have a similar 'Book of Secrets' (a spreadsheet of secrets) that I have walked through with DW.  Many times.  Each time, her eyes glaze over even though I'm only a quarter of the way done...  I suppose, at some point, I should make a narrative that is explicit and ensure that someone will be able to take over the reins.  We have a few quirks like foreign currency exposure, foreign earned income tax exclusion carry-over, credits from paying international taxes and getting stock in lieu of dividends, and investment loss carryover, which I guess would be understood by the right accountant looking at prior year tax returns.  That was the relationship that I need to establish here in the not too distant future.

The idea of an ICE binder isn't a bad one, except there are a lot of moving parts coming up in 2021 which makes this complicated.  DS will turn 18, DD turns 16 and we'll eventually buy another car...  College will start so the 529 will come in to play...  I guess I just worry that I spend a bunch of time making this binder and it is all out dated in 2 years.  Kinda' like the will (and living wills) we wrote and revise every few years.  It's depressing enough the first time...  I never thought having money and being able to retire early would be so depressing, but folks are talking about how short life is and how many people died right after retiring (or during their OMY)...  too much talk about longevity (and lack thereof) instead of how great it is to have options and amazing experiences...  so I also tend to tune some of the ER stuff out.  I really don't care to do any side hustles, unless they are engaging and fulfilling.  I feel like I get a lot of that with my current job - getting to see billion dollar projects come together and being on the 'fun side' of the velvet rope.

It was an interesting perspective when you explicitly said 'protect assets from them' Bean, but it is more nuanced than that.  I want the assets to always be there for my spouse and, optimistically, there to be a reasonable amount left for the next generation of EV's to come...  I fully trust my spouse with the assets, I just think it is not her interest and the wrong accountant and financial advisor (even if a fiduciary) could steer things in a very frustrating direction, since DW would not want to provide input other than to be very conservative and use vehicles she fully trusts like bank accounts and stable value funds.  DW would not feel comfortable with a +/- $100k change (yes, even the positive change would stress her out, since that is a year of work changing on paper in a day, so how is that possible). 

It's not that I don't share these things with her, but I think it is abstract and she trusts the process for now, but when it is her, I fear she will see it more as gambling and want to take the chips off the table...   I really don't know, but it will stress her out, she just likes to know she has $X to spend each week (with $X being a comfortable amount with some typically left over for those budget breaking times like back to school, Christmas, etc.)...

I've probably said too much again, but this is therapeutic for me.  She is a genius in other areas though, just as uninterested as she is in finance, I am uninterested in the things she gets incredible accolades for - teaching(!), orchids, healthy and creative meals, DIY around the house, homemaking (which we share 50/50, I don't mind laundry, washing dishes, home maintenance - but she takes things to a higher level than I do), etc....  I do my best to support, but she is tireless when it comes to her passions and pursuits and gets appreciation for how great she does at these and many other things. 

It'll be interesting to see how we do in retirement together.  We have talked about our dreams a bunch on our walks together, but I bet putting things in to practice will be a lot different than just talking...  But I hope to live a long time so that we can enjoy figuring that out.  It would be great to keep putting the serious death stuff off indefinitely, but in this year of Covid, I have to be realistic and think more pragmatically.  And hence my initial post and these rambling thoughts of me processing what I should do sooner rather than leave until it's too late and find myself with a mess that I was too lazy to put right when I had the time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on November 28, 2020, 10:52:52 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 28, 2020, 03:59:23 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 28, 2020, 09:53:36 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 27, 2020, 03:41:01 PM

Yeah I had sympathy to @EscapeVelocity2020 position.. I certainly don't want to come across as some awful misogynist but my DW is in a similar position.. i.e Money is just not her thing*.

I have a "book of secrets (BOS)" where all the money strategy is written down (but no user names or passwords).

We then also have a password vault that provides access to each of our accounts. DW then has to remember just one password. We also have a close friend (younger than us) who is a PhD economist and does all her family finance and is also FIRED.

The plan is if I croak, DW takes the BOS and the password to said friend and it will be a 5 minute job to see what is drawn from where and why.

*When I say "Not her thing".. I mean its REALLY not her thing! She has no idea of our NW and only a faint idea of what institutions its invested with. If you were to ask her the difference between a Roth vs traditional IRA she wouldn't have the first clue even though I have tried to explain several times. This is not a complaint on my part, although I would dearly love her to be involved she just isn't interested and I have just have to accept thats the way it is.

IMHO there is a big difference though between having a spouse who is not interested in investments and deciding to protect assets FROM THEM by putting them into a trust. Which is what Escape was suggesting he thought he might need to do. My spouse is not into investment strategy or any kind of long term planning. I do all of that. And it would no doubt be difficult if I died before him and he had to deal with those sorts of things. But that doesn't make him incapable. It doesn't mean I need to shield assets from him. He might make a few mistakes along the way, but I trust that he'll find his way and reach out to professionals if he needs help. If he were to decide that he wants to put it all into a managed account so he doesn't have to do anything but have an annual review then he can pay for that. I'm not going to make that choice for him.

I have a similar 'Book of Secrets' (a spreadsheet of secrets) that I have walked through with DW.  Many times.  Each time, her eyes glaze over even though I'm only a quarter of the way done...  I suppose, at some point, I should make a narrative that is explicit and ensure that someone will be able to take over the reins.  We have a few quirks like foreign currency exposure, foreign earned income tax exclusion carry-over, credits from paying international taxes and getting stock in lieu of dividends, and investment loss carryover, which I guess would be understood by the right accountant looking at prior year tax returns.  That was the relationship that I need to establish here in the not too distant future.

The idea of an ICE binder isn't a bad one, except there are a lot of moving parts coming up in 2021 which makes this complicated.  DS will turn 18, DD turns 16 and we'll eventually buy another car...  College will start so the 529 will come in to play...  I guess I just worry that I spend a bunch of time making this binder and it is all out dated in 2 years.  Kinda' like the will (and living wills) we wrote and revise every few years.  It's depressing enough the first time...  I never thought having money and being able to retire early would be so depressing, but folks are talking about how short life is and how many people died right after retiring (or during their OMY)...  too much talk about longevity (and lack thereof) instead of how great it is to have options and amazing experiences...  so I also tend to tune some of the ER stuff out.  I really don't care to do any side hustles, unless they are engaging and fulfilling.  I feel like I get a lot of that with my current job - getting to see billion dollar projects come together and being on the 'fun side' of the velvet rope.

It was an interesting perspective when you explicitly said 'protect assets from them' Bean, but it is more nuanced than that.  I want the assets to always be there for my spouse and, optimistically, there to be a reasonable amount left for the next generation of EV's to come...  I fully trust my spouse with the assets, I just think it is not her interest and the wrong accountant and financial advisor (even if a fiduciary) could steer things in a very frustrating direction, since DW would not want to provide input other than to be very conservative and use vehicles she fully trusts like bank accounts and stable value funds.  DW would not feel comfortable with a +/- $100k change (yes, even the positive change would stress her out, since that is a year of work changing on paper in a day, so how is that possible). 

It's not that I don't share these things with her, but I think it is abstract and she trusts the process for now, but when it is her, I fear she will see it more as gambling and want to take the chips off the table...   I really don't know, but it will stress her out, she just likes to know she has $X to spend each week (with $X being a comfortable amount with some typically left over for those budget breaking times like back to school, Christmas, etc.)...

I've probably said too much again, but this is therapeutic for me.  She is a genius in other areas though, just as uninterested as she is in finance, I am uninterested in the things she gets incredible accolades for - teaching(!), orchids, healthy and creative meals, DIY around the house, homemaking (which we share 50/50, I don't mind laundry, washing dishes, home maintenance - but she takes things to a higher level than I do), etc....  I do my best to support, but she is tireless when it comes to her passions and pursuits and gets appreciation for how great she does at these and many other things. 

It'll be interesting to see how we do in retirement together.  We have talked about our dreams a bunch on our walks together, but I bet putting things in to practice will be a lot different than just talking...  But I hope to live a long time so that we can enjoy figuring that out.  It would be great to keep putting the serious death stuff off indefinitely, but in this year of Covid, I have to be realistic and think more pragmatically.  And hence my initial post and these rambling thoughts of me processing what I should do sooner rather than leave until it's too late and find myself with a mess that I was too lazy to put right when I had the time.

Putting things down in writing is one of my ways to get the thoughts out there for examination.  In your case to the internet as a whole also, not just for oneself. 
DW has little interest in finances and financial stuff.  I take care of that, and let her know generally what is going on. As the glaze forms over the eyes, I back it down a bit.
If I spout illogical stuff (on any subject), she WILL call me on it. She is essentially always right.  I'm so glad I married a wife with Vulcan logic and Romulan passions :-) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 29, 2020, 07:21:49 AM

Just thought I'd toss this in:

"There is an often-told story that when Albert Einstein was once asked what mankind's greatest invention was, he replied: "Compound interest." There's even one claim that Einstein called compound interest the "8th Wonder of the World."

While there is some debate about whether Einstein really said any of this or not, there's no question that the compounding of interest is a brilliant thing. As another great American, Benjamin Franklin, described it: "Money makes money. And the money that money makes, makes money." That is probably the simplest explanation of compound interest you'll ever hear."

from somewhere on the net.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on November 29, 2020, 07:33:50 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 28, 2020, 10:00:07 AM

My husband has no interest in investments and talking money with him is 100 times harder than talking sex. That’s why we got a financial advisor, he’s more of a financial counselor/referee. I trust the advisor would guide my spouse upon my demise :-)

The trust was more about how should rich gay uncles (us) with no children have our wealth distributed upon our death. We don’t want to rule from the grave, but we also don’t want bickering and lawsuits. We want it clear and simple, end of story. We will talk with a lawyer early next year to see if a trust will help with that.

Or maybe I should just retire now and start spending it :-p


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Or work harder than ever.  Its whatever makes you happy and fulfilled.  The trust and inheritance stuff can be managed. 

Sent from my laptop using Tapamykeyboard

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 29, 2020, 07:36:44 AM

Quote from: Ockhamist on November 29, 2020, 06:05:56 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 27, 2020, 10:25:57 PM

Quote from: DavidAnnArbor on November 27, 2020, 09:11:18 PM

This frothy stock market has caused my liquid investments to climb to just shy of $2.1 million. 
...

I keep hearing folks are at all time highs.  I haven't checked the numbers lately but I'm almost nervous, it seems absurd how the snowball keeps growing once it gets going in earnest.  Compounding is ridiculously effective.  But there is still a vestige of my younger, less wise self that keeps thinking that surely, SURELY the covid and unemployment numbers will cause something bad to happen in the economy and ultimately the stock markets to fall, but it now looks like we will end 2020 with respectable 10+% gains and still very little inflation.  This really has been a crazy year!

I have found it useful to withdraw a portion of the gains   Thus selling high and building a cash position with some of it, but letting compounding continue to do its things (for better or worse) with the rest

Not that I want you to change if that works for you, but I’m a hardcore Boglehead.  I have an asset allocation and an investment strategy and all I might do is rebalance from time to time...  Cash is not an investment, in my humble opinion.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 29, 2020, 07:46:58 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on November 29, 2020, 07:33:50 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 28, 2020, 10:00:07 AM

My husband has no interest in investments and talking money with him is 100 times harder than talking sex. That’s why we got a financial advisor, he’s more of a financial counselor/referee. I trust the advisor would guide my spouse upon my demise :-)

The trust was more about how should rich gay uncles (us) with no children have our wealth distributed upon our death. We don’t want to rule from the grave, but we also don’t want bickering and lawsuits. We want it clear and simple, end of story. We will talk with a lawyer early next year to see if a trust will help with that.

Or maybe I should just retire now and start spending it :-p


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Or work harder than ever.  Its whatever makes you happy and fulfilled.  The trust and inheritance stuff can be managed. 

Sent from my laptop using Tapamykeyboard

That’s just it, work can solve a lot of problems while being engaging and purposeful!  I understand why non-FI people dislike it, I was there, but all this praise of ‘Retirement in Your 20’s’ is misguided, IMHO.  It must be the allure of sitting around, because the actuality of it sucks.  FI is all it should be about, and finding work you enjoy in the meantime.

And I enjoyed your Tapatalk signature:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 29, 2020, 07:59:52 AM

So what big ticket items are you all blowing your money on? We are getting our house remodeled - basically correcting some annoyances that we have been living with for over twenty years. Also, more importantly, fixing my basement workshop (which my daughters call my lair :-)) so I can get on with my post retirement projects. As it turns out, this has been a great way to ease into retirement. There was so much physical labor involved that I was away from my computer for nearly a month which was good for my sense of well-being. And much satisfaction that I was able to get rid of a truck load of junk that had accumulated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: texxan1 on November 29, 2020, 08:40:17 AM

just thinking outload... Trying to up my game for the last two months before i fire... I officially have 28 days at work left, but that doesnt start till mid january and then 60 days of policy period with mega oil corp.....

Just looked at my numbers and i am sitting pretty good.. My fire number was 2mil.... seems my liquid is now 2.1 mil, not including my 400k lump sum pension i get the day i leave ( going to tIRA )... that puts me at 2.5.....

DANCING NOW LOL........

So the plan for me is to set my 401k deduction to  99% so that my first two checks of the year max me out..... Hope that works

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 29, 2020, 12:55:04 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on November 29, 2020, 08:40:17 AM

just thinking outload... Trying to up my game for the last two months before i fire... I officially have 28 days at work left, but that doesnt start till mid january and then 60 days of policy period with mega oil corp.....

Just looked at my numbers and i am sitting pretty good.. My fire number was 2mil.... seems my liquid is now 2.1 mil, not including my 400k lump sum pension i get the day i leave ( going to tIRA )... that puts me at 2.5.....

DANCING NOW LOL........

So the plan for me is to set my 401k deduction to  99% so that my first two checks of the year max me out..... Hope that works

Thats a pretty flexible 401k you got there.. Nice..:). The best I ever got was a max of 75% salary contribution... The guy I spoke to set it up said "Well you can go to 75%.. but nobody does that!".. Hold my beer..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on November 29, 2020, 01:32:34 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 29, 2020, 07:46:58 AM

Quote from: Buffaloski Boris on November 29, 2020, 07:33:50 AM

Or work harder than ever.  Its whatever makes you happy and fulfilled.  The trust and inheritance stuff can be managed. 

Sent from my laptop using Tapamykeyboard

That’s just it, work can solve a lot of problems while being engaging and purposeful!  I understand why non-FI people dislike it, I was there, but all this praise of ‘Retirement in Your 20’s’ is misguided, IMHO.  It must be the allure of sitting around, because the actuality of it sucks.  FI is all it should be about, and finding work you enjoy in the meantime.

And I enjoyed your Tapatalk signature:)

You’re welcome. I don’t get the whole RE thing. Different strokes for different folks I guess. FI is the thing. Because once you have enough money, you can do pretty much whatever you want. If that means quitting a suckful job, then do so. But you really don’t even need to be FI to do that. Just have some financial cushion and find something else.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 29, 2020, 01:36:30 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 29, 2020, 12:55:04 PM

- SNIP -

Thats a pretty flexible 401k you got there.. Nice..:). The best I ever got was a max of 75% salary contribution... The guy I spoke to set it up said "Well you can go to 75%.. but nobody does that!".. Hold my beer..:)

75% ?  Wow!  Beer and Ramen noodles.  And the beer would have been cheap skunky beer. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 29, 2020, 04:55:37 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 29, 2020, 01:36:30 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 29, 2020, 12:55:04 PM

- SNIP -

Thats a pretty flexible 401k you got there.. Nice..:). The best I ever got was a max of 75% salary contribution... The guy I spoke to set it up said "Well you can go to 75%.. but nobody does that!".. Hold my beer..:)

75% ?  Wow!  Beer and Ramen noodles.  And the beer would have been cheap skunky beer.

Well I didn't think I would be there very long (I wasn't) so was able to max the 401k out for the year in like 3 months. I got laid off after 6 mos I think so it worked out good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on December 04, 2020, 01:54:53 PM

Joining after the recent runup.... kind of unbelievable. Took me > 35 years for the first $1M, only 3 years for the second.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 04, 2020, 01:58:39 PM

Quote from: dividendman on December 04, 2020, 01:54:53 PM

Joining after the recent runup.... kind of unbelievable. Took me > 35 years for the first $1M, only 3 years for the second.

Welcome.. you might leave and rejoin a few times (I think I left 3 times so far on the bottom end).. But the trend is clear..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SparkyPeanut on December 04, 2020, 09:47:38 PM

Quote from: dividendman on December 04, 2020, 01:54:53 PM

Joining after the recent runup.... kind of unbelievable. Took me > 35 years for the first $1M, only 3 years for the second.

How did it take more than 35 years if you are only 38 years old?

Congrats on your second mil.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on December 05, 2020, 12:42:23 AM

Earned his first dollar at 3?

Still impressively fast for the second million. Congratulations!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on December 05, 2020, 01:57:56 AM

I guess I counted from birth though I didn't start earning money until I was in my teens! :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SparkyPeanut on December 05, 2020, 06:42:53 AM

Quote from: dividendman on December 05, 2020, 01:57:56 AM

I guess I counted from birth though I didn't start earning money until I was in my teens! :)

Oh my goodness! So, it really took you about 20 years for the first and 3 years for the second. Just wondering because it took us (spouse & I - don't know if you are married) about 20 years(!) for first. Not at second yet but half way there - mostly due to the good returns this years. Perhaps we will close in on 2 mil soon.
We live in a HCOL area, so it is really not a 'huge' amount. Still grateful though, of course.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tipster350 on December 05, 2020, 06:53:20 AM

Another one joining this group after a quick trip through the $1-$2 million group. As I am nearing 60 years old, it took me many years to amass the $1 million, and a lightning-quick nanosecond (or so it seems after all the ups and downs, twists and turns and extreme frugality of my earlier years) to reach the $2 million mark. Like the other newbies, I expect I'll be in and out of this category a few times before it sticks, but regardless I plan to retire in 2021.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on December 05, 2020, 08:38:37 AM

Took us 17 years for the first million. During most of those years we were very average earners.
Inherited the second million. (Not in trust)
Two years to earn the third million.
Working on the fourth. (Also have a trust that we don’t count, if at some point that releases then that will change everything again)
Seeing how quickly the third million accumulated, I’m really glad I went ahead and FIREd.
In a lot of ways it’s really hard to wrap your brain around it all. Still live in average house. Still buying average Honda’s, still using an iphone6.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on December 05, 2020, 08:54:03 AM

I think it took us 14 years for the first million, 7 for the second, and we are over halfway to 3m in the last three years.

But this year has been insane. Our NW has fluctuated between 1.9 and 2.6 (which is now).

Market seems way overpriced but we are on the roller coaster for the long term!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 05, 2020, 12:16:44 PM

This is all very encouraging. I often wake up and think two things.. i.e "I don't have to go to work today" and "we are MULTI-MILLIONAIRES".

Even after almost 7 years of FIRE (first attempt) both of these facts just seem ridiculous!.. Not work? Who does that?

Our first mil took 10 years (starting from zero.. i.e after the mortgage was paid off), the second took 5.5 years according to my notes.

Currently sat at $2.6 saved..  plus the house plus smallish pensions which we have not started drawing yet.

For someone born is just 16 years after the end of WW2 in impoverished London its hard to fathom how I got here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 05, 2020, 02:02:10 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 05, 2020, 12:16:44 PM

Our first mil took 10 years (starting from zero.. i.e after the mortgage was paid off), the second took 5.5 years according to my notes.

Currently sat at $2.6 saved..  plus the house plus smallish pensions which we have not started drawing yet.

For someone born is just 16 years after the end of WW2 in impoverished London its hard to fathom how I got here.

Similar sentiment - just about 29 years ago, I graduated with a PhD and $5000 in savings and a barely functional car (more rust than metal). Now: retired, sitting in a paid-off house, two paid-off cars and money in the bank. Amazed and thankful.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on December 05, 2020, 02:22:01 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 05, 2020, 02:02:10 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 05, 2020, 12:16:44 PM

Our first mil took 10 years (starting from zero.. i.e after the mortgage was paid off), the second took 5.5 years according to my notes.

Currently sat at $2.6 saved..  plus the house plus smallish pensions which we have not started drawing yet.

For someone born is just 16 years after the end of WW2 in impoverished London its hard to fathom how I got here.

Similar sentiment - just about 29 years ago, I graduated with a PhD and $5000 in savings and a barely functional car (more rust than metal). Now: retired, sitting in a paid-off house, two paid-off cars and money in the bank. Amazed and thankful.

I'd have loved to have a car and five grand at graduation of my BS.  I did have a car I paid $500 for and restored weekends during my senior year with help from my unemployed, body guy brother in law, but upon graduation, it was my turn to pay the gas bill.  $39.  My check bounced.  My dad covered me and about 6 weeks later, I started my first engineering job, living in temporary, company paid housing for 60 days.  Following that, my fiance and I bought a house.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: RetirementDreaming on December 05, 2020, 03:44:17 PM

We are officially in this group!  We blipped in and out 3 times but I think we are here to stay at 2.142M.  Took 12 years for the first million and 4 years for second.  We are purchasing our retirement home in a few months.  Hopefully we can keep our investments above 2M.   Husband is still working for 2 more years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 05, 2020, 04:07:32 PM

Quote from: RetirementDreaming on December 05, 2020, 03:44:17 PM

We are officially in this group!  We blipped in and out 3 times but I think we are here to stay at 2.142M.  Took 12 years for the first million and 4 years for second.  We are purchasing our retirement home in a few months.  Hopefully we can keep our investments above 2M.   Husband is still working for 2 more years.

Congratulations!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 05, 2020, 06:15:41 PM

FWIW, I'm pretty flexible on the threshold here. If you hit $2M, you're in. If the market recedes a bit, but you haven't sold anything off in a panic, you're still good, IMO.

Welcome, new double millionaires!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 05, 2020, 07:45:23 PM

With the recent run-up in stock valuations to a bit above average returns, plus appreciating real estate values, our net worth is now the highest it's ever been.

Even better, everything we own is fully paid for so our monthly spend is a whole lot less.   Our expenses are $30k below what they were in Dec of 2019.   (And 56K below what they were in January of 2020 when we bought a new house and hadn't sold the old one yet!)  And we're making $24K more than we did in 2019, too.

Net worth is up!

Cash flow is up!

Hassle factor is lower.

Woo hoo!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: FireLane on December 05, 2020, 08:03:26 PM

My first million took 10 years, plus a few months. The second million took less than four years. And even though I just hit that mark this summer, I'm well on my way to the third.

Exponential growth is an amazing thing... even if these stock market valuations make me nervous.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 06, 2020, 03:56:05 AM

Quote from: FireLane on December 05, 2020, 08:03:26 PM

My first million took 10 years, plus a few months. The second million took less than four years. And even though I just hit that mark this summer, I'm well on my way to the third.

Exponential growth is an amazing thing... even if these stock market valuations make me nervous.

To give you an old-timer's perspective: As per the calculator on this page (https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/), the initial $2500 we invested the mid 1990s in an S&P index fund is now worth about $15,600 (including dividend reinvestment and taking inflation into account). I had maxed out my 401k (the limits were laughably low) so we opened our account with Fidelity.

And mind you, this is after three big crashes: 2000, 2008 and 2020 !

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on December 06, 2020, 04:11:35 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 05, 2020, 12:16:44 PM

Currently sat at $2.6 saved..  plus the house plus smallish pensions which we have not started drawing yet.

For someone born is just 16 years after the end of WW2 in impoverished London its hard to fathom how I got here.

yeah- I was born in a rented cottage on a farm in the home counties. We got a council house because the cottage was condemned. 
between me and the other half we are now in this group on a net basis (albeit we are going to be hitting FI independently due to various circumstances) and that's close too.
And in the future we could potentially be getting SS and pensions that will top 50k a year on top of the stash.

We are currently at the point of reorganizing everything financially and assessing our future moves and expenses (especially healthcare) to see at what point we can quit work. Healthcare is the big one as we have 4 kids between us that are under 26 and are on the current plan. 2 will age out in 3 years but we still have 2 to consider for a while.

But over 2m invested? 2 rental properties that kinda happened accidentally. Er - what???
We could end up with some 90k in income without the shares - just pensions and rentals.
Its possible that this quitting stuff might end up being over engineered... (mostly because once I quit I am never going back to a salaried job. Ever.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 06, 2020, 04:37:05 AM

Just because the ACA allows offspring to remain on their parent's insurance until age 26 does not obligate said parents to provide it for them. Related: At what age do modern parents cease paying for cars or cell phones?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 06, 2020, 06:57:59 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on December 05, 2020, 08:38:37 AM

Still live in average house. Still buying average Honda’s, still using an iphone6.

Yeah, looks like my house is worth like 7% of my TNW now, and we love this house, don't care to move.  Seems like all my direct reports own homes worth twice what mine is, and my peers 4 times.... I have a friend with a new house that must have cost $1M to build (MCOL area) and just bought his wife a $70k car.  The other day he was talking about how he really wished he could help his kid with their $20k college costs for the year instead of them having to borrow it and her go into all that debt. That just sounds crazy to me (I'm not gonna argue whether one should pay for their kid's college, but for him to not think that he can afford that just seems bizarre to me when looking at that spending)

Its kinda funny to think I could just self-insure my own home and if it burned to the ground I'd only lose about what my portfolio does in every market correction, but with homeowners insurance being so relatively cheap I will not.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on December 06, 2020, 06:59:07 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 06, 2020, 04:37:05 AM

Just because the ACA allows offspring to remain on their parent's insurance until age 26 does not obligate said parents to provide it for them. Related: At what age do modern parents cease paying for cars or cell phones?

My kids started paying for their phones once they were out of education. I'm still paying for the youngest as she is at college full time (and she is paying her own way to college via scholarships and other funding).
My boy paid for his share of the car insurance once he wanted in on using a car. My kids have always paid for their own cars (i did help then select the cars and negotiate the price) because I felt that the way to make sure they were full vested in driving carefully and responsibly was to fully bear the financial burden.
and because I'm the meanest parent ever!!!


Healthcare - the cheapest way for my kids to get healthcare was to be on mine. once they get jobs that include healthcare then I'll go over the costing and work out the right solution - IE the one that costs them the least - if thats paying for their deductible and co-pays on my insurance then they can do that. They have to be involved in that decision so that they can see what goes into it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on December 06, 2020, 10:20:01 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on December 06, 2020, 04:11:35 AM

Healthcare is the big one as we have 4 kids between us that are under 26 and are on the current plan. 2 will age out in 3 years but we still have 2 to consider for a while.

For those earning income you might want to have a look at what they would pay on an ACA plan -- my DS is earning too much in his current tech internship to qualify for subsidies, but is only paying around $300/month for a silver PPO plan with relatively low deductible and OOP costs ($500 deductible, $1500 OOP max).  All primary care and generic prescriptions are covered pre-deductible for ridiculously low copays ($5 and $15, IIRC).

The same plan would cost me closer to $1000 without subsidies.  Pays to be a young un!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 06, 2020, 10:45:16 AM

Quote from: lhamo on December 06, 2020, 10:20:01 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on December 06, 2020, 04:11:35 AM

Healthcare is the big one as we have 4 kids between us that are under 26 and are on the current plan. 2 will age out in 3 years but we still have 2 to consider for a while.

For those earning income you might want to have a look at what they would pay on an ACA plan -- my DS is earning too much in his current tech internship to qualify for subsidies, but is only paying around $300/month for a silver PPO plan with relatively low deductible and OOP costs ($500 deductible, $1500 OOP max).  All primary care and generic prescriptions are covered pre-deductible for ridiculously low copays ($5 and $15, IIRC).

The same plan would cost me closer to $1000 without subsidies.  Pays to be a young un!

$1300 for us and thats for a crappy bronze plan with a $7,000 deductible and NO prescription coverage.. At least not until the deductible is met.. what a joke.

Needless to say we "engineer" our income to make sure we get a healthy subsidy.. So we end up paying about $15/month for what is essentially catastrophic insurance and buy drugs from the UK or GoodRX coupons.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 06, 2020, 01:55:02 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 06, 2020, 10:45:16 AM

Quote from: lhamo on December 06, 2020, 10:20:01 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on December 06, 2020, 04:11:35 AM

Healthcare is the big one as we have 4 kids between us that are under 26 and are on the current plan. 2 will age out in 3 years but we still have 2 to consider for a while.

For those earning income you might want to have a look at what they would pay on an ACA plan -- my DS is earning too much in his current tech internship to qualify for subsidies, but is only paying around $300/month for a silver PPO plan with relatively low deductible and OOP costs ($500 deductible, $1500 OOP max).  All primary care and generic prescriptions are covered pre-deductible for ridiculously low copays ($5 and $15, IIRC).

The same plan would cost me closer to $1000 without subsidies.  Pays to be a young un!

$1300 for us and thats for a crappy bronze plan with a $7,000 deductible and NO prescription coverage.. At least not until the deductible is met.. what a joke.

Needless to say we "engineer" our income to make sure we get a healthy subsidy.. So we end up paying about $15/month for what is essentially catastrophic insurance and buy drugs from the UK or GoodRX coupons.

Yeah, we have a private plan like that for the 5 of us that is around 1350/mth, from what I can tell a similar plan on the ACA is more like $2k/mth (and maybe my youngest two wouldnt even qualify to be on it with us? I havent really figured that out.)  So for us at least ACA is a joke until I FIRE, at which point it looks like it'll be awesome.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on December 07, 2020, 06:27:01 AM

With this morning's update from the market Friday, I noticed on my spread sheet for the first time that my "times spending" number is over 50.  In part of the spread sheet, I list expenses expected in retirement.  Things like health insurance and travel are much, much higher than our current cost.  Back in the investments, I have a simple division of liquid investments over the annual expenses. 

I've loosened the purse strings just a bit.  After selling RSUs yielding $4200 (shares with held for tax), I bought myself a black Friday sale log splitter at my local tractor supply.  I'm amazed at how much work I get done compared to swinging a mawl.  I'm still a cheap bastard and our "extra" car actually had 2 flats back to back.  First one, my son got.  Next one, I got.  I keep pull off tires that are not total garbage and have a $39 manual tire mounting "machine" and a bubble balancer, so I've been wrenching quite a bit.  Since the snow Saturday, we re-assigned cars to my kids so they both have AWD cars with snow tires.  I take out the Fusion with these take off tires only when the roads are clear and dry now. 

Oh.....and my older son bought both of us Mexican Sunday.  :D  Nice to have some turn around on paying for fun food.

So what's that 50 times look like for me?  It's just over $3.1MM.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Mr. Green on December 07, 2020, 08:50:33 AM

We have just pushed into this club as well. As a person in their... I guess it's late-30's now (sigh) I'm starting to think about drawdown strategies a lot more. If we just keep spending 40-45k a year until we die, projections get pretty outta hand. 15-80 million at my 100th birthday. I'm trying to figure out a good way of raising spending in a manner that keeps the snowball from growing too large, but at the same time balances sequence of returns risk while we're young. This strategy is also aimed at avoiding ridiculous RMDs when we get into our 70s because 2/3s of our liquid assets are currently in Traditional IRAs.

A conservative projection calculating ROI and spending over our lifetimes raises spending to 50k from age 38-40, 60k from 41-45, 75k from 46-60, and 80k from 61-71. That keeps RMDs starting at 72 similar to existing spending at that time. This model also assumes a boost in Roth IRA conversions from spending four years abroad and not having income limited by ACA tax consequences (though I expect the current medical model to change at some point).

It's a fairly complicated dance if you want to play the game as efficiently as possible. Like EscapeVelocity2020 and some others here, my wife has no interest in the nuances. Though perhaps she'd surprise me if I dropped dead tomorrow. Because we're young, I haven't spent as much time planning for survivor finances as I should. We do at least have a will, though that will need updating. With a baby on the way, I really need to take some time over the next eight months and address that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 07, 2020, 09:41:51 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 07, 2020, 06:27:01 AM

- SNIP -

I've loosened the purse strings just a bit.  After selling RSUs yielding $4200 (shares with held for tax), I bought myself a black Friday sale log splitter at my local tractor supply.  I'm amazed at how much work I get done compared to swinging a mawl.  I'm still a cheap bastard and our "extra" car actually had 2 flats back to back.  First one, my son got.  Next one, I got.  I keep pull off tires that are not total garbage and have a $39 manual tire mounting "machine" and a bubble balancer, so I've been wrenching quite a bit.  Since the snow Saturday, we re-assigned cars to my kids so they both have AWD cars with snow tires.  I take out the Fusion with these take off tires only when the roads are clear and dry now. 

Oh.....and my older son bought both of us Mexican Sunday.  :D  Nice to have some turn around on paying for fun food.

So what's that 50 times look like for me?  It's just over $3.1MM.

Your back will thank you for supplementing the maul with the splitter.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 07, 2020, 07:02:01 PM

I just picked up a post hole digger (for my tractor) with a 12"auger for $250..:).

I tend to "splurge" on tools a little now with increasing NW.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on December 07, 2020, 09:05:27 PM

It's great to see all the newcomers to the thread.  Welcome!   

Yesterday, I told my daughter, who wants to invest in a rental, "Well, your first million takes the longest."  She sputtered... "FIRST million???" 

I'm not sure exactly how long the first one took us, somewhere about 12-15 years from college graduation/early adulthood. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 07, 2020, 11:21:55 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on December 07, 2020, 09:05:27 PM

It's great to see all the newcomers to the thread.  Welcome!   

Yesterday, I told my daughter, who wants to invest in a rental, "Well, your first million takes the longest."  She sputtered... "FIRST million???" 

I'm not sure exactly how long the first one took us, somewhere about 12-15 years from college graduation/early adulthood.

Haha, nice.. Did Daughter not realise you had more than 2 mil?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on December 08, 2020, 03:09:57 AM

I've just checked mine.  You can really see the impact of me being over-cautious and not being enough in the market: but I did nonetheless get more into the market over time.  Each time is the rough "increment" from hitting the previous milestone.  It's less neat than many of yours (I kinda plateaued), but nonetheless, it does confirm that things really speed up once you get going: both in terms of earning power (if you start young when your earnings are still increasing) and market returns.  Years are from starting my first permanent job.

0.5m - 8 years
1.0m - 4 years (12 years total to 1m - also bought a house around this point which burned some money in fees/tax/trades)
1.5m - 1.5 years
2.0m - 2 years (16 years total to 2m - pretty quick from 1-2m as my earnings increased and I bought a house/stopped paying rent)
2.5m - 2 years
3.0m - 3 years (21 years total to 3m (thanks to @jeroly below for the correction!): slower than 1-2m due to taking time off *2 for kids, Brexit, being not enough invested overall, and too much of my investments in the FTSE/£ denominated)
3.5m - 1.5 years

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on December 08, 2020, 05:32:40 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on December 08, 2020, 03:09:57 AM

I've just checked mine.  You can really see the impact of me being over-cautious and not being enough in the market: but I did nonetheless get more into the market over time.  Each time is the rough "increment" from hitting the previous milestone.  It's less neat than many of yours (I kinda plateaued), but nonetheless, it does confirm that things really speed up once you get going: both in terms of earning power (if you start young when your earnings are still increasing) and market returns.  Years are from starting my first permanent job.

0.5m - 8 years
1.0m - 4 years (12 years total to 1m - also bought a house around this point which burned some money in fees/tax/trades)
1.5m - 1.5 years
2.0m - 2 years (16 years total to 2m)
2.5m - 2 years
3.0m - 3 years (19 years total to 3m: slowed also due to Brexit, being not enough invested overall, but too much in the FTSE/£ denominated)
3.5m - 1.5 years

16 years to 2, two more to 2.5, three more to $3... that's 21 years not 19

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on December 08, 2020, 05:45:45 AM

You are quite right - I will fix!  It is 21 years....  It definitely felt more like 21 years than 19 too.... :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on December 08, 2020, 06:48:42 AM

I did a little spreadsheet that examined the effect of income, expenses, and rates of return on time to $2 million overall, and # of years from 0 to $1 million vs. # of years from $1 million ro $2 million.

Assumptions:  Tax rate rises slowly as income rises, maxxes out at 50%, starting at age 22 with $0 saved
Ignoring inflation, looking at real rate of return, income, and letting real spending (not including taxes) rise at 1% per year. Salary rising 5%/year (real).

Base expenses of $30,000, real rate of return 5%
Reaching $2 million at age...
Starting salary $50,000   - age 50 (21 years to $1 million, 7 to $2 million)
Starting salary $100,000 - age 41 (13,6)
Starting salary $200,000 - age 35 (8,5)

Base expenses of $30,000, real rate of return 7%
Reaching $2 million at age...
Starting salary $50,000   - age 47 (19,6)
Starting salary $100,000 - age 39 (12,7)
Starting salary $200,000 - age 34 (8,4)

Base expenses of $30,000, real rate of return 15%
Reaching $2 million at age...
Starting salary $50,000   - age 41 (15,4)
Starting salary $100,000 - age 35 (9,3)
Starting salary $200,000 - age 32 (7,3)

Base expenses of $60,000, real rate of return 5%
Reaching $2 million at age...
Starting salary $50,000   - age 92 (39,6)
Starting salary $100,000 - age 48 (19,7)
Starting salary $200,000 - age 38 (11,5)

So, some observations on this info...

- Time to double from $1 million is consistently much lower than time to $1 million.  In other words, once you've gotten to $1 million, if you keep doing what you're doing you're pretty likely to double it quickly.
- The biggest influence on how fast you get to multimillionaire status is your earnings as opposed to your expenses or rate of return unless you manage to get a very high rate of return.
       - In the example where base expenses are $60,000 and salary starts at $50,000, the debt burden grows for the first 16 years and net worth doesn't get back to 0 until age 48 - 26 years after starting to work - so this shows the effect of living beyond your means
       - You can definitely cut down time to retirement if you manage to get a 15% ROR but good luck with that.  My take is that you can get there fast enough as it is with a lot lower risk, so why risk getting wiped out?
- (My biggest takeaway from this) If you keep your expenses down, start with a living wage, and are able to have decent salary progress over the course of your career, FIREing as a multimillionaire is within the reach of just about anyone in a developed economy, provided that the financial markets yield something on lower than but near their historical average over the next 20-40 years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on December 08, 2020, 09:12:34 AM

Jeroly, you are really a math guy, yes? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 08, 2020, 12:56:49 PM

Quote from: jeroly on December 08, 2020, 06:48:42 AM

Salary rising 5%/year (real).

Most people are in jobs that simply won't support a 5%/year (plus inflation) salary increase year after year.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on December 08, 2020, 01:05:39 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on December 08, 2020, 09:12:34 AM

Jeroly, you are really a math guy, yes?

I also spreadsheet and graph for entertainment.  Just last night I "rediscovered" the Hertzsprung–Russell diagram from a NASA dataset (TESS)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertzsprung%E2%80%93Russell_diagram

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on December 08, 2020, 02:01:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 08, 2020, 12:56:49 PM

Quote from: jeroly on December 08, 2020, 06:48:42 AM

Salary rising 5%/year (real).

Most people are in jobs that simply won't support a 5%/year (plus inflation) salary increase year after year.   

I'll say.

I'm an engineer and I've had 2 3% raises in my present job that I've been at for 5 years.  Previous job was 4 years and zero raises (company had an excuse why nobody got one).  Previous job, did pretty well.  In 8 years, probably 3 were pay freezes, the other 5, probably 2.5% raises.

I did get more money through bonuses, RSUs, ESPP, filing patents and bringing new people in.

5% a year?  Uh, no.  This isn't 1987, where this could happen.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on December 08, 2020, 02:15:38 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 08, 2020, 02:01:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 08, 2020, 12:56:49 PM

Quote from: jeroly on December 08, 2020, 06:48:42 AM

Salary rising 5%/year (real).

Most people are in jobs that simply won't support a 5%/year (plus inflation) salary increase year after year.   

I'll say.

I'm an engineer and I've had 2 3% raises in my present job that I've been at for 5 years.  Previous job was 4 years and zero raises (company had an excuse why nobody got one).  Previous job, did pretty well.  In 8 years, probably 3 were pay freezes, the other 5, probably 2.5% raises.

I did get more money through bonuses, RSUs, ESPP, filing patents and bringing new people in.

5% a year?  Uh, no.  This isn't 1987, where this could happen.

Huh.  It happened to me.

I had a 23 year career and more than quadrupled my salary from beginning to end.  That corresponds to somewhat better than a 6% raise on average if I did the math right.  That's also just base salary and ignores stock options and bonuses, which were more plentiful later on.

I was a firmware engineer for the first 18 years and a firmware engineering manager for the last 5.  BSCS plus a state school MBA.  Most of those 23 years were at two different Fortune 500 tech companies.  Lived in Idaho the entire time.

Maybe I was just lucky.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 08, 2020, 02:30:25 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on December 08, 2020, 02:15:38 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 08, 2020, 02:01:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 08, 2020, 12:56:49 PM

Quote from: jeroly on December 08, 2020, 06:48:42 AM

Salary rising 5%/year (real).

Most people are in jobs that simply won't support a 5%/year (plus inflation) salary increase year after year.   

I'll say.

I'm an engineer and I've had 2 3% raises in my present job that I've been at for 5 years.  Previous job was 4 years and zero raises (company had an excuse why nobody got one).  Previous job, did pretty well.  In 8 years, probably 3 were pay freezes, the other 5, probably 2.5% raises.

I did get more money through bonuses, RSUs, ESPP, filing patents and bringing new people in.

5% a year?  Uh, no.  This isn't 1987, where this could happen.

Huh.  It happened to me.

I had a 23 year career and more than quadrupled my salary from beginning to end.  That corresponds to somewhat better than a 6% raise on average if I did the math right.  That's also just base salary and ignores stock options and bonuses, which were more plentiful later on.

I was a firmware engineer for the first 18 years and a firmware engineering manager for the last 5.  BSCS plus a state school MBA.  Most of those 23 years were at two different Fortune 500 tech companies.  Lived in Idaho the entire time.

Maybe I was just lucky.

Your last sentence nailed it.   That's not to discount your hard work and skill -- I'm sure you had plenty.

But you wandered into a booming industry that required skilled labor that was in short supply.   So did I.   

Everyone, by definition, can't do that, because most industries don't have massive firehoses of cash being tossed their way -- or those that do only need easily gotten skills that they don't have to pay big bucks to hire.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PDXTabs on December 08, 2020, 07:55:06 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 08, 2020, 02:30:25 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on December 08, 2020, 02:15:38 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 08, 2020, 02:01:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 08, 2020, 12:56:49 PM

Quote from: jeroly on December 08, 2020, 06:48:42 AM

Salary rising 5%/year (real).

Most people are in jobs that simply won't support a 5%/year (plus inflation) salary increase year after year.   

I'll say.

I'm an engineer and I've had 2 3% raises in my present job that I've been at for 5 years.  Previous job was 4 years and zero raises (company had an excuse why nobody got one).  Previous job, did pretty well.  In 8 years, probably 3 were pay freezes, the other 5, probably 2.5% raises.

I did get more money through bonuses, RSUs, ESPP, filing patents and bringing new people in.

5% a year?  Uh, no.  This isn't 1987, where this could happen.

Huh.  It happened to me.

I had a 23 year career and more than quadrupled my salary from beginning to end.  That corresponds to somewhat better than a 6% raise on average if I did the math right.  That's also just base salary and ignores stock options and bonuses, which were more plentiful later on.

I was a firmware engineer for the first 18 years and a firmware engineering manager for the last 5.  BSCS plus a state school MBA.  Most of those 23 years were at two different Fortune 500 tech companies.  Lived in Idaho the entire time.

Maybe I was just lucky.

Your last sentence nailed it.   That's not to discount your hard work and skill -- I'm sure you had plenty.

But you wandered into a booming industry that required skilled labor that was in short supply.   So did I.   

Everyone, by definition, can't do that, because most industries don't have massive firehoses of cash being tossed their way -- or those that do only need easily gotten skills that they don't have to pay big bucks to hire.

I think that it depends where you start too. Strictly speaking I started my career at $8/hr in 1999 and have since quadrupled my base salary.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 09, 2020, 06:22:44 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 08, 2020, 02:01:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 08, 2020, 12:56:49 PM

Quote from: jeroly on December 08, 2020, 06:48:42 AM

Salary rising 5%/year (real).

Most people are in jobs that simply won't support a 5%/year (plus inflation) salary increase year after year.   

I'll say.

I'm an engineer and I've had 2 3% raises in my present job that I've been at for 5 years.  Previous job was 4 years and zero raises (company had an excuse why nobody got one).  Previous job, did pretty well.  In 8 years, probably 3 were pay freezes, the other 5, probably 2.5% raises.

I did get more money through bonuses, RSUs, ESPP, filing patents and bringing new people in.

5% a year?  Uh, no.  This isn't 1987, where this could happen.

There's not a lot of positions even in the right industries that are going to involve planned 5% real pay annual increases.  But I think the 5% (average of course, not gradual) is very possible when you;re moving up in positions/changing companies over time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 09, 2020, 07:26:27 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 08, 2020, 12:56:49 PM

Quote from: jeroly on December 08, 2020, 06:48:42 AM

Salary rising 5%/year (real).

Most people are in jobs that simply won't support a 5%/year (plus inflation) salary increase year after year.   

I had the same thought. However, starting saving early so compound interest can work its magic is an even more powerful force. Don't work in an area that offers raises like that? Save and invest just a little bit more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 09, 2020, 08:33:47 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on December 09, 2020, 06:22:44 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 08, 2020, 02:01:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 08, 2020, 12:56:49 PM

Quote from: jeroly on December 08, 2020, 06:48:42 AM

Salary rising 5%/year (real).

Most people are in jobs that simply won't support a 5%/year (plus inflation) salary increase year after year.   

I'll say.

I'm an engineer and I've had 2 3% raises in my present job that I've been at for 5 years.  Previous job was 4 years and zero raises (company had an excuse why nobody got one).  Previous job, did pretty well.  In 8 years, probably 3 were pay freezes, the other 5, probably 2.5% raises.

I did get more money through bonuses, RSUs, ESPP, filing patents and bringing new people in.

5% a year?  Uh, no.  This isn't 1987, where this could happen.

There's not a lot of positions even in the right industries that are going to involve planned 5% real pay annual increases.  But I think the 5% (average of course, not gradual) is very possible when you;re moving up in positions/changing companies over time.

I received my annual comp update yesterday, and received a 2.2% raise. I'm already very well compensated, & received a six figure annual bonus, plus a generous stock grant. My observation as a reasonably senior person in tech is that my salary is now a smaller portion of my overall comp (well under 1/2 at this point), so raises don't matter as much.

From a growth perspective, I started out at 22 (in tech) making $36k/year in 1998. I'm now making over $600k. I certainly echo the feedback upthread. I'm skilled & have deep expertise in a high demand area, but I've also gotten incredibly lucky - right industry, right time, right managers, etc.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 09, 2020, 08:38:43 AM

$600k? Wowza!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 09, 2020, 09:49:24 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 09, 2020, 08:38:43 AM

$600k? Wowza!

I'm not worthy of being on a forum with people of that income level. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 09, 2020, 10:11:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 09, 2020, 09:49:24 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 09, 2020, 08:38:43 AM

$600k? Wowza!

I'm not worthy of being on a forum with people of that income level.

We live in the bay area, so our housing/tax expenses are pretty eye watering as well. We could be making significantly less in plenty of areas in the US & have a similar disposable income. But yes, feeling very grateful, although it makes my plans to leave that much more challenging to execute. :-) 2020 has brought a halt to international travel (for work),which has bought me more time churning out the money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on December 09, 2020, 11:44:54 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 09, 2020, 10:11:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 09, 2020, 09:49:24 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 09, 2020, 08:38:43 AM

$600k? Wowza!

I'm not worthy of being on a forum with people of that income level.

We live in the bay area, so our housing/tax expenses are pretty eye watering as well. We could be making significantly less in plenty of areas in the US & have a similar disposable income. But yes, feeling very grateful, although it makes my plans to leave that much more challenging to execute. :-) 2020 has brought a halt to international travel (for work),which has bought me more time churning out the money.

Yeah, I'm about to FIRE (again) and I have an income thereabouts and it's hard.... but I'm doing it early 2021!!! How are you mentally preparing for it?

On the one hand I have enough money to do what I want in life.

On the other hand it seems kinda dumb to just give up 700k.... so....... argh. Still gonna do it, but damn.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 09, 2020, 01:12:07 PM

Quote from: dividendman on December 09, 2020, 11:44:54 AM

Yeah, I'm about to FIRE (again) and I have an income thereabouts and it's hard.... but I'm doing it early 2021!!! How are you mentally preparing for it?

On the one hand I have enough money to do what I want in life.

On the other hand it seems kinda dumb to just give up 700k.... so....... argh. Still gonna do it, but damn.

In the words of Paul Simon :-) :

Quote

You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free

I was not quite in your league but I just walked away from about $300k/year. It was not too hard as I had become progressively disenchanted with the tech field: all this amazing technology being used to throw a few call-center workers out of work? Makes no sense.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on December 09, 2020, 02:10:49 PM

I’m not at all in @maybebabymustache’s league but I was earning almost $300k before I quit. My mother was horrified by the idea that I was leaving invested stock on the table. But if I had waited until all my stock vested to quit I would have never quit.

I’m simultaneously of two minds about it all.
On one hand it is a firehose of money coming relatively more easily than ever in our careers. On the other hand, once we reached Enough I found I had very little patience for work shenanigans impacting home life. You can tolerate a lot when it is in pursuit of an important goal, but once the goal is reached? I just can’t be convinced that whatever is going on with the production line of Yet Another Widget is more important than being with us for dinner tonight.

The other thing is that more money doesn’t equal a better life somehow with my husband not changing his fundamental frugal nature. I get that frugality had a lot of benefits and allowed us to be where we are today. That said, sometimes I get frustrated that we are arguing over why I want the $40 waffle maker instead of the $25 waffle maker when $35k hit our checking account the week before. “Just buy me the damn waffle maker that I want!” If continuing to work past Enough doesn’t do any more than change a number on a spreadsheet then to hell with that shit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on December 09, 2020, 02:12:02 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 09, 2020, 09:49:24 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 09, 2020, 08:38:43 AM

$600k? Wowza!

I'm not worthy of being on a forum with people of that income level.

Of course you are. People who make $50k and $500k are all just people too... at least around these parts. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Allie on December 09, 2020, 02:29:15 PM

Hi! 

I’m stopping in to say hi!  We’ve just hit 2.1, which is nice!  So, I’d like please join your party!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 09, 2020, 02:33:31 PM

@ysette9 - waves! Hello, friend. :-)

To the point, there is no way to not leave stock on the table, so with my compensation package structure, I'll inevitably leave a bunch of unvested stock behind & have to reach a tipping point where I won't care. Or, perhaps it will bother me just a bit is a more accurate way to put it. :-)

The big deal breaker for me in my job has been international travel. COVID has changed that, and right now, I'm going to enjoy the ride for a bit more. I work for a manager/skip level manager I enjoy, largely enjoy my colleagues & lead a team of others that I enjoy. If any of those factors change or the stress outweighs the benefit, or I'm required to travel again, that will likely be the end for me. I'm not interested in trading 8-10 weeks a year away from my family for any amount of money at this point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on December 09, 2020, 03:02:15 PM

Welcome @Allie and congratulations!

What are your plans: is RE on the horizon, or is the stash for something else/growing for a bit?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on December 09, 2020, 03:02:50 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 09, 2020, 02:33:31 PM

@ysette9 - waves! Hello, friend. :-)

To the point, there is no way to not leave stock on the table, so with my compensation package structure, I'll inevitably leave a bunch of unvested stock behind & have to reach a tipping point where I won't care. Or, perhaps it will bother me just a bit is a more accurate way to put it. :-)

The big deal breaker for me in my job has been international travel. COVID has changed that, and right now, I'm going to enjoy the ride for a bit more. I work for a manager/skip level manager I enjoy, largely enjoy my colleagues & lead a team of others that I enjoy. If any of those factors change or the stress outweighs the benefit, or I'm required to travel again, that will likely be the end for me. I'm not interested in trading 8-10 weeks a year away from my family for any amount of money at this point.

Hello to you too! :) I hope life and circumstances will allow us to catch up over lunch again one day in the future.

Not having international travel is a big blessing. My husband’s work is a lot more tolerable due to that change. Travel is hard on the individual doing the traveling and also hard on the family left behind, especially when the kids are young. I’m glad you’ve got a pretty good situation going there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 09, 2020, 03:36:33 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 09, 2020, 10:11:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 09, 2020, 09:49:24 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 09, 2020, 08:38:43 AM

$600k? Wowza!

I'm not worthy of being on a forum with people of that income level.

We live in the bay area, so our housing/tax expenses are pretty eye watering as well. We could be making significantly less in plenty of areas in the US & have a similar disposable income. But yes, feeling very grateful, although it makes my plans to leave that much more challenging to execute. :-) 2020 has brought a halt to international travel (for work),which has bought me more time churning out the money.

Yeah, we live in the Bay Area, too. Just for grins, and not to take anything away from your or @ysette9's success, our income was/is nowhere near that, by a long shot, yet here we three invisible friends are, hanging out in the same club. I realize it's less of an issue on this particular thread, but I want remind anyone reading (lurking?) and despairing of ever getting here that they don't have to be a huge wage earner. Mostly you just have to be smart about spending and investing. The investment order sticky works for everyone, even if they're never, ever going to earn that kind of income.

And @ysette9, I can't imagine having that kind of discussion with my husband. Of course, if I wanted a new waffle iron, I'd probably buy it at a thrift store, but damn, I'm not a mom of three little kids. Maybe give yourselves a reasonable Free Spending Limit? Then, if an expenditure is under X amount, there is no need for discussion. You've worked your ass of to get your family where it is today. You deserve some damn autonomy, IMO. Of course, I may have no idea what the hell I'm talking about...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 09, 2020, 04:50:37 PM

@Dicey - totally agree, so many paths to ending up here. In fact, I'd say our high income has hidden plenty of sins. Don't get me wrong, we've made a lot of good choices and spend less than we earn always, but we've made plenty of mistakes along the way as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on December 09, 2020, 05:10:03 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 09, 2020, 03:36:33 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 09, 2020, 10:11:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 09, 2020, 09:49:24 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 09, 2020, 08:38:43 AM

$600k? Wowza!

I'm not worthy of being on a forum with people of that income level.

We live in the bay area, so our housing/tax expenses are pretty eye watering as well. We could be making significantly less in plenty of areas in the US & have a similar disposable income. But yes, feeling very grateful, although it makes my plans to leave that much more challenging to execute. :-) 2020 has brought a halt to international travel (for work),which has bought me more time churning out the money.

Yeah, we live in the Bay Area, too. Just for grins, and not to take anything away from your or @ysette9's success, our income was/is nowhere near that, by a long shot, yet here we three invisible friends are, hanging out in the same club. I realize it's less of an issue on this particular thread, but I want remind anyone reading (lurking?) and despairing of ever getting here that they don't have to be a huge wage earner. Mostly you just have to be smart about spending and investing. The investment order sticky works for everyone, even if they're never, ever going to earn that kind of income.

And @ysette9, I can't imagine having that kind of discussion with my husband. Of course, if I wanted a new waffle iron, I'd probably buy it at a thrift store, but damn, I'm not a mom of three little kids. Maybe give yourselves a reasonable Free Spending Limit? Then, if an expenditure is under X amount, there is no need for discussion. You've worked your ass of to get your family where it is today. You deserve some damn autonomy, IMO. Of course, I may have no idea what the hell I'm talking about...

You are correct and ordinarily I would just buy my own damn waffle maker, but in this instance it is ostensibly my Christmas gift that I choose and he clicks the “Buy” button on. :) I have a lot of sentimentality wrapped up in memories of Sunday morning d’amont wafffles, so I want a waffle maker that is the most like the one I had as a kid as I can find. Irrational. But the point of making waffles at how for me is the nostalgia.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on December 10, 2020, 12:54:46 AM

Welcome Allie! I was wondering when you’d pop on over here. :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: texxan1 on December 10, 2020, 05:07:25 AM

with all this talk about starting salary and how long it took time to get there... I decided to go back and look at the start of my O@G career.... .i Started with oil company 1 , exactly 21 years ago last week.    They day i started i was in debt about 80k roughly..... 

1999- started with oil company A- $19.42 an hour 
2007- started with oil company B-  $44 an hour
2009- Took new job and promotion in Alaska with oil company B- Salary of $165k ( discuovered  FIRE idea)
2015- Took new Assignment ( on loan) working abroad for oil company B- Salary of $192k , plus over 100K a year in Tax Free International Rotator Premimum and stock options if a hit TOP Tier in our bonus matrix
2021-  FIRE coming feb 17th

So i decided to look back at my 401k, which was the ONLY money i had..... except for a few thousand in my bank account in 2009

401k   Dec 10 2009-   $19311
Checking account   -    $7000

Fast forward TODAY  dec 10th, 2020
401k- $1,100,021
Vanguard- $1,048,000
Checking/savings - $136,000
Lump sum pension when i Fire  $400k

So liquid worth next month when i Fire is   

$2,684,000                  THATS pretty damn awesome


no idea how to calculate that, but i can assure you that I still led a pretty good lift and honestly could have been alot more.....

What helped me the most is a simple nudge to get into that market using vanguard..... Thanks Pops

So in 11 years, i went from 25k to 2.6m     

I started a small but incoming producing business in 2014 ( ice machine vending) and decided to live on Just that money and invest everything from that i made from my real job and other side hustles into the 401k, max out at 53k each year, and the rest to my aftertax accounts...... Somewhere along the way, i bough a cheap piece of propery and built a 600sf house in a small coastal community... Never even lived in the place after we built the home.. Sold it the next week once it was completed for 175k.. Used that money to pay off the big house ...,, Cant say it has been easy, but it certainly wasnt hard when i put my head up and kicked it into overdrive..


The Stars alligned and got offered a package from big oil and signed that last week..... Been over my Fire number since last year, but knew this package was coming and worked out..... ON to the next chapter

Tex

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 10, 2020, 10:33:37 AM

Quote from: texxan1 on December 10, 2020, 05:07:25 AM

with all this talk about starting salary and how long it took time to get there... I decided to go back and look at the start of my O@G career.... .i Started with oil company 1 , exactly 21 years ago last week.    They day i started i was in debt about 80k roughly..... 

1999- started with oil company A- $19.42 an hour 
2007- started with oil company B-  $44 an hour
2009- Took new job and promotion in Alaska with oil company B- Salary of $165k ( discuovered  FIRE idea)
2015- Took new Assignment ( on loan) working abroad for oil company B- Salary of $192k , plus over 100K a year in Tax Free International Rotator Premimum and stock options if a hit TOP Tier in our bonus matrix
2021-  FIRE coming feb 17th

So i decided to look back at my 401k, which was the ONLY money i had..... except for a few thousand in my bank account in 2009

401k   Dec 10 2009-   $19311
Checking account   -    $7000

Fast forward TODAY  dec 10th, 2020
401k- $1,100,021
Vanguard- $1,048,000
Checking/savings - $136,000
Lump sum pension when i Fire  $400k

So liquid worth next month when i Fire is   

$2,684,000                  THATS pretty damn awesome


Tex

Now, that's a great achievement! I have known a number of people who really struggled in the oil and gas industry due to layoffs. I'm really impressed with how disciplined you have been in your savings strategy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: billsfan1_2000 on December 10, 2020, 05:13:14 PM

Hey all!  How's things?????  Just sayin' - love hearing all your chatter....good stuff.  Went over $4m in recent months....any objection to one sticking around? 

By the way - GO BILLS! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 10, 2020, 09:13:34 PM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on December 10, 2020, 05:13:14 PM

Hey all!  How's things?????  Just sayin' - love hearing all your chatter....good stuff.  Went over $4m in recent months....any objection to one sticking around? 

By the way - GO BILLS!

I think there are more than a few of us that have gone in to the great beyond, hence the full title of the thread...  congrats (to you, not the Bills :)  It's all good here, just please contribute as to what come next for you (how you are living out your dreams and aspirations), or the challenges you face (should probably make legacy plans since we won't spend it before the end), and please don't just list off milestones (woo-hoo $5M, woo-hoo $6M, etc)...  Yes, once you hit a certain amount, Mustachians (people that live below their means) will continue with inevitable (and enviable) gains...  the reporting of the math of it is not very exciting TBH.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Allie on December 10, 2020, 11:26:43 PM

Quote from: LightTripper on December 09, 2020, 03:02:15 PM

Welcome @Allie and congratulations!

What are your plans: is RE on the horizon, or is the stash for something else/growing for a bit?

I’m working for fun and teaching kids!  DH is still working, and probably will for a while longer.  He can choose to leave whenever, I guess, but he’s not ready. 

Quote from: couponvan on December 10, 2020, 12:54:46 AM

Welcome Allie! I was wondering when you’d pop on over here. :-)

Thanks!  It’s been right there for a while...but it doesn’t feel real!  I’ll probably slip back under at some point, but we have end of the year stuff coming up, so maybe I’ll stay? 

I’m probably going to need help figuring out how to structure everything so we can actually live off of it once my DH does re.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 11, 2020, 06:34:21 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on December 09, 2020, 08:33:47 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on December 09, 2020, 06:22:44 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 08, 2020, 02:01:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 08, 2020, 12:56:49 PM

Quote from: jeroly on December 08, 2020, 06:48:42 AM

Salary rising 5%/year (real).

Most people are in jobs that simply won't support a 5%/year (plus inflation) salary increase year after year.   

I'll say.

I'm an engineer and I've had 2 3% raises in my present job that I've been at for 5 years.  Previous job was 4 years and zero raises (company had an excuse why nobody got one).  Previous job, did pretty well.  In 8 years, probably 3 were pay freezes, the other 5, probably 2.5% raises.

I did get more money through bonuses, RSUs, ESPP, filing patents and bringing new people in.

5% a year?  Uh, no.  This isn't 1987, where this could happen.

There's not a lot of positions even in the right industries that are going to involve planned 5% real pay annual increases.  But I think the 5% (average of course, not gradual) is very possible when you;re moving up in positions/changing companies over time.

I received my annual comp update yesterday, and received a 2.2% raise. I'm already very well compensated, & received a six figure annual bonus, plus a generous stock grant. My observation as a reasonably senior person in tech is that my salary is now a smaller portion of my overall comp (well under 1/2 at this point), so raises don't matter as much.

From a growth perspective, I started out at 22 (in tech) making $36k/year in 1998. I'm now making over $600k. I certainly echo the feedback upthread. I'm skilled & have deep expertise in a high demand area, but I've also gotten incredibly lucky - right industry, right time, right managers, etc.

Wow, $600k in comp, that's pretty amazing.  I profited over that for one great year when owning a business and another year at about that, but I could never have said I was "making X" at any number near that (or really any number at all confidently when running the business) as I never knew what the next year (or month) would bring. It was all risk/reward.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 11, 2020, 08:11:54 AM

@Much Fishing to Do

You got me curious about how much my comp has changed over the past few years, when I've really seen an explosion upward

2014 - $224k
2015 - $316k
2016 - $364k
2017 - $436k
2018 - $472k
2019 - $500k
2020 - $595k
2021 - $640k

What's happened in that period of time? I've been promoted three times (one was a more significant promo that impact bonus & equity ceiling), & my yearly options started adding up. Mine vest over a four year period, so once I'd had a few promos under my belt, and had four year of stock, that adds up to the doubling of income.

It also explains why it feels so new to me. (I don't talk about this with anyone other than my husband, & sometimes on this thread). Wow, what a journey. I'm also at the peak years, as you can see, so it feels worth it to see if I can push out another couple of the big earning years to cover things like giving, travel, & some luxuries for the future.

I also wanted to be clear that I haven't been making that for long (not that my previous comp was anything to sneeze at.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 11, 2020, 08:44:48 AM

Good to see a lot of newbies in the thread. Its amazing to me how people know what they made and how much each year there portfolios went up for such an extended period of time. Just shows the lack of discipline I had and am fortunate to have gotten in this group by being self-employed and at the end finally getting my shit together. Good stuff you guys have I pass on to my kids!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 12, 2020, 05:02:17 PM

I never made much more than $100K in a year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BECABECA on December 13, 2020, 04:57:12 PM

Well, our liquid assets have finally crossed over the $2m mark so I’m ready to officially join this club! And our total net worth including primary residence also crossed over $3m this month, so it has been quite the month for milestones!

It took 13 years after graduating college for net worth to hit the first million, then 2.5 years to hit the second, and 2.8 years to hit the third. I FIRE’d a few years ago, so that slowed the 3rd down a bit. My spouse is still enjoying work and doesn’t want to retire yet so we’re on track to hit 4 in another few years.

My first job out of college had an annual salary of $29k in 2002 (which felt like a fortune!) and my last job was $160k in 2017 (good thing we had layoffs, otherwise I would have been OMY/2MY). I put my spouse through grad school, her first annual salary was $70k in 2009 and she’s at $160k now.

It’s crazy how once you start the money compounding, it just keeps ballooning! Anyway, I’m excited to finally be here!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on December 13, 2020, 05:16:54 PM

I've noticed some differences between this thread and the other earlier "race" threads:

1.  The earlier threads seem to be races and grinds.  This thread people seem to have relaxed.

2.  The earlier threads people seem to care more about how to calculate NW.  Not as much here.

3.  The earlier threads people often calculate to the penny.  Here it's much more approximate.  (I can appreciate why.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 13, 2020, 05:44:56 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on December 13, 2020, 05:16:54 PM

I've noticed some differences between this thread and the other earlier "race" threads:

1.  The earlier threads seem to be races and grinds.  This thread people seem to have relaxed.

2.  The earlier threads people seem to care more about how to calculate NW.  Not as much here.

3.  The earlier threads people often calculate to the penny.  Here it's much more approximate.  (I can appreciate why.)

Our NW can easily change 20K in a single day.  You no longer sweat the small shit.  I'm still working for some crazy reason.  I blame it on the future cost of healthcare.  Anyway I worked 84 hours this week due to overtime needs.  I'll gross, not clear about $4000.  Nice paycheck for many.  Right?  Really?  We'll, not really.  Our assets will make close to that on their own.  How do you get all worked up when your money makes more money than you do busting ass for 7 consecutive 12 hours shifts in a row. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 13, 2020, 06:41:50 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 13, 2020, 05:44:56 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on December 13, 2020, 05:16:54 PM

I've noticed some differences between this thread and the other earlier "race" threads:

1.  The earlier threads seem to be races and grinds.  This thread people seem to have relaxed.

2.  The earlier threads people seem to care more about how to calculate NW.  Not as much here.

3.  The earlier threads people often calculate to the penny.  Here it's much more approximate.  (I can appreciate why.)

Our NW can easily change 20K in a single day.  You no longer sweat the small shit.  I'm still working for some crazy reason.  I blame it on the future cost of healthcare.  Anyway I worked 84 hours this week due to overtime needs.  I'll gross, not clear about $4000.  Nice paycheck for many.  Right?  Really?  We'll, not really.  Our assets will make close to that on their own.  How do you get all worked up when your money makes more money than you do busting ass for 7 consecutive 12 hours shifts in a row.

We have a solution to offer for that problem and you know what it is... :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 13, 2020, 06:46:00 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 13, 2020, 05:44:56 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on December 13, 2020, 05:16:54 PM

I've noticed some differences between this thread and the other earlier "race" threads:

1.  The earlier threads seem to be races and grinds.  This thread people seem to have relaxed.

2.  The earlier threads people seem to care more about how to calculate NW.  Not as much here.

3.  The earlier threads people often calculate to the penny.  Here it's much more approximate.  (I can appreciate why.)

Our NW can easily change 20K in a single day.  You no longer sweat the small shit.  I'm still working for some crazy reason.  I blame it on the future cost of healthcare.  Anyway I worked 84 hours this week due to overtime needs.  I'll gross, not clear about $4000.  Nice paycheck for many.  Right?  Really?  We'll, not really.  Our assets will make close to that on their own.  How do you get all worked up when your money makes more money than you do busting ass for 7 consecutive 12 hours shifts in a row.

I got an unexpected decent sized bonus this paycheck.  It was seriously a surprise, I had no clue it was coming.  My first reaction was cool, my second thought was, WTF do I do with this.  I also have made more in my accounts that in take home pay this year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 13, 2020, 08:03:15 PM

Haha yeah and that $20k is roughly what we pull from our investments for an entire YEAR of spending..

The farrier was over a couple of weeks back and in the time she took to trim the horse's feet (about an hour) I had made roughly $10k..:)

It really is hard to remain quite so uptight about money beyond $2M saved.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on December 13, 2020, 10:40:35 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 13, 2020, 08:03:15 PM

Haha yeah and that $20k is roughly what we pull from our investments for an entire YEAR of spending..

The farrier was over a couple of weeks back and in the time she took to trim the horse's feet (about an hour) I had made roughly $10k..:)

It really is hard to remain quite so uptight about money beyond $2M saved.

Sounds like you should buy some more horses!  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 14, 2020, 03:38:24 AM

Quote from: BECABECA on December 13, 2020, 04:57:12 PM

Well, our liquid assets have finally crossed over the $2m mark so I’m ready to officially join this club! And our total net worth including primary residence also crossed over $3m this month, so it has been quite the month for milestones!

It took 13 years after graduating college for net worth to hit the first million, then 2.5 years to hit the second, and 2.8 years to hit the third. I FIRE’d a few years ago, so that slowed the 3rd down a bit. My spouse is still enjoying work and doesn’t want to retire yet so we’re on track to hit 4 in another few years.

My first job out of college had an annual salary of $29k in 2002 (which felt like a fortune!) and my last job was $160k in 2017 (good thing we had layoffs, otherwise I would have been OMY/2MY). I put my spouse through grad school, her first annual salary was $70k in 2009 and she’s at $160k now.

It’s crazy how once you start the money compounding, it just keeps ballooning! Anyway, I’m excited to finally be here!

Welcome to the thread! Sounds like you did it right!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: texxan1 on December 14, 2020, 06:51:45 AM

Yeah, the up and down swings are huge somedays.... im not making more on the market than what my firehouse of cash from the O@G megacorp but i dont need too.... I do thank, whomever it was that told me to check the market Every single day... so when you see swings after fire it wont bother you.....

Im not bothered about much the market does, just a cycle and i can say the market definately makes me as much i would need every year....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 14, 2020, 08:26:59 AM

Maybe this market thing can be best expressed by what a gas station attendant tried to teach me in Walnut Creek, California a few years back:

dí-kapaní-paniwalà

It seems to fit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 14, 2020, 08:53:29 AM

Quote from: pecunia on December 14, 2020, 08:26:59 AM

Maybe this market thing can be best expressed by what a gas station attendant tried to teach me in Walnut Creek, California a few years back:

dí-kapaní-paniwalà

It seems to fit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on December 14, 2020, 09:02:24 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 11, 2020, 08:44:48 AM

Good to see a lot of newbies in the thread. Its amazing to me how people know what they made and how much each year there portfolios went up for such an extended period of time. Just shows the lack of discipline I had and am fortunate to have gotten in this group by being self-employed and at the end finally getting my shit together. Good stuff you guys have I pass on to my kids!

Before I had my "super spreadsheet", I couldn't remember what I earned from year to year.  I had to look through old taxes (or used social security statements).  Now the IRS has it all on their website and you can download it.  pretty convenient! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 14, 2020, 09:15:23 AM

Quote from: texxan1 on December 14, 2020, 06:51:45 AM

Yeah, the up and down swings are huge somedays.... im not making more on the market than what my firehouse of cash from the O@G megacorp but i dont need too.... I do thank, whomever it was that told me to check the market Every single day... so when you see swings after fire it wont bother you.....

Im not bothered about much the market does, just a cycle and i can say the market definately makes me as much i would need every year....

Then you get to the next level of FI, not checking the market every day :)  Index funds just aren't that exciting to watch.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 14, 2020, 10:10:16 AM

Hi all,

I haven't been around here for quite a while...I see the thread has really grown! 

Anyway, I fired Personal Capital up recently and liked what I saw.  We are up to 2.9M Net Worth, with 2.6M being investments ( and 1.8M in tax deferred 401K accounts ).  Most of the rest is in a brokerage account, and the rest in cash.

One takeaway from this year is that I really bumped up my stock trading activity...and had some BIG wins ( mostly in biotech )..and some moderate losses ( can't win 'em all ).  The brokerage account is what put us over the top.  What started out as 'play money' a few years ago has turned into something much more than that.  Ironically, this year has been absolutely stellar for stock trading. And I have learned a lot.  It isn't for the feint of heart though...you need nerves of steel, and that has been a hard lesson to learn.

Anyway, I guess we have 'officially' joined this group! 





 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 14, 2020, 10:27:56 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 14, 2020, 10:10:16 AM

Hi all,

I haven't been around here for quite a while...I see the thread has really grown! 

Anyway, I fired Personal Capital up recently and liked what I saw.  We are up to 2.9M Net Worth, with 2.6M being investments ( and 1.8M in tax deferred 401K accounts ).  Most of the rest is in a brokerage account, and the rest in cash.

One takeaway from this year is that I really bumped up my stock trading activity...and had some BIG wins ( mostly in biotech )..and some moderate losses ( can't win 'em all ).  The brokerage account is what put us over the top.  What started out as 'play money' a few years ago has turned into something much more than that.  Ironically, this year has been absolutely stellar for stock trading. And I have learned a lot.  It isn't for the feint of heart though...you need nerves of steel, and that has been a hard lesson to learn.

Anyway, I guess we have 'officially' joined this group!

Hey!  Welcome back.  Glad to hear from one of the old timers as well as all the newcomers.  It's great to hear the stories of how we all came here.  Many different paths, but definitely many common goals.   You guys certainly inspire me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 14, 2020, 10:38:14 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 14, 2020, 10:27:56 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 14, 2020, 10:10:16 AM

Hi all,

I haven't been around here for quite a while...I see the thread has really grown! 

Anyway, I fired Personal Capital up recently and liked what I saw.  We are up to 2.9M Net Worth, with 2.6M being investments ( and 1.8M in tax deferred 401K accounts ).  Most of the rest is in a brokerage account, and the rest in cash.

One takeaway from this year is that I really bumped up my stock trading activity...and had some BIG wins ( mostly in biotech )..and some moderate losses ( can't win 'em all ).  The brokerage account is what put us over the top.  What started out as 'play money' a few years ago has turned into something much more than that.  Ironically, this year has been absolutely stellar for stock trading. And I have learned a lot.  It isn't for the feint of heart though...you need nerves of steel, and that has been a hard lesson to learn.

Anyway, I guess we have 'officially' joined this group!

Hey!  Welcome back.  Glad to hear from one of the old timers as well as all the newcomers.  It's great to hear the stories of how we all came here.  Many different paths, but definitely many common goals.   You guys certainly inspire me.

Hey another old timer! 

It is also quite shocking at just how much our 401K accounts have grown....even though they are in more conservative funds ( vanguard Wellesley mostly ).   It balances out the ultra risky stock trading I have been doing.  I think it is a great example of how tax free compounding gains work.  Note that we have been maxing out our 401Ks for many years...and it was really tough to do early on.  So much so that we sacrificed the 'toys' everyone else was buying to save more.  However, even though it was difficult, it was hard to turn down 'free money' ( i.e. - company match plus tax savings ). 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dgmp on December 19, 2020, 09:15:21 AM

Boom!  I made it. 

After 5 long years, my RSU grant of 175k vests at a value of 457k.  What a blessing.  Feels great.  Not many one can share this milestone with so going to share with you all already in this club!

Total: 2,075,000

• Cash: 25k
  Stock Investments: $1.85M
  Property: 200k

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 19, 2020, 09:16:21 AM

Quote from: Dgmp on December 19, 2020, 09:15:21 AM

Boom!  I made it. 

After 5 long years, my RSU grant of 175k vests at a value of 457k.  What a blessing.  Feels great.  Not many one can share this milestone with so going to share with you all already in this club!

Total: 2,075,000

• Cash: 25k
  Stock Investments: $1.85M
  Property: 200k

Congrats!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 19, 2020, 10:16:55 AM

@Dgmp Well done and welcome to the group..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 19, 2020, 10:22:54 AM

Quote from: Dgmp on December 19, 2020, 09:15:21 AM

Boom!  I made it. 

After 5 long years, my RSU grant of 175k vests at a value of 457k.  What a blessing.  Feels great.  Not many one can share this milestone with so going to share with you all already in this club!

Total: 2,075,000

• Cash: 25k
  Stock Investments: $1.85M
  Property: 200k

Congrats! Have you hit your "number" ?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on December 19, 2020, 07:13:53 PM

Congratulations! Is it everything you hoped it would be? Or a bit anticlimactic?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dacalo on December 21, 2020, 06:12:22 PM

We jumped a thread and went from ~$880k NW to $3.2M a few months back due to an IPO. Very grateful but we sure don't feel "rich." Everything is still the same, our cars, our spending habits, etc. I also don't feel secure enough to just quit my job. I am in my early 40's with a family of 2 children. Wife and I haven't told anyone about our recent success.

Going to keep on going, may be one more year, and see where we are at then.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 21, 2020, 07:13:17 PM

Quote from: dacalo on December 21, 2020, 06:12:22 PM

We jumped a thread and went from ~$880k NW to $3.2M a few months back due to an IPO. Very grateful but we sure don't feel "rich." Everything is still the same, our cars, our spending habits, etc. I also don't feel secure enough to just quit my job. I am in my early 40's with a family of 2 children. Wife and I haven't told anyone about our recent success.

Going to keep on going, may be one more year, and see where we are at then.

Holy cow.. Instant FI in a few months! Good for you, I'm sure you worked very hard to make that happen.

I think most of us around here know how you feel in that calling us "rich" is just nuts.. I mean we are just like everybody else right?

What I can tell you is after a few years of RE you wonder how on Earth you keep getting more and more money.. Its insane..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 21, 2020, 07:17:48 PM

Quote from: dacalo on December 21, 2020, 06:12:22 PM

We jumped a thread and went from ~$880k NW to $3.2M a few months back due to an IPO. Very grateful but we sure don't feel "rich." Everything is still the same, our cars, our spending habits, etc. I also don't feel secure enough to just quit my job. I am in my early 40's with a family of 2 children. Wife and I haven't told anyone about our recent success.

Going to keep on going, may be one more year, and see where we are at then.

Congrats!

Diversify and lock in the bulk of those gains.    Doesn't matter if staying with that IPO company ***might*** end up gaining you more because it also ***might*** make you lose those gains too.

You've now "won" the money game, now your job is not to lose it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: brooklynmoney on December 21, 2020, 08:36:23 PM

I know what it means to not feel rich. I’m basically on this thread in term of my liquid investments and I live in a one bedroom apartment. I have never lived in anything larger. Well my condo has a small den like room haha.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on December 22, 2020, 06:37:17 AM

Quote from: brooklynmoney on December 21, 2020, 08:36:23 PM

I know what it means to not feel rich. I’m basically on this thread in term of my liquid investments and I live in a one bedroom apartment. I have never lived in anything larger. Well my condo has a small den like room haha.

Huh.  I feel rich.  I open up my spreadsheet and get giddy and then start whispering to myself "holy crap, I'm rich!".  Of course, I don't feel rich enough to stop working, but I see all those zeroes on my accounts and am astounded because I just never thought I'd be here.  I feel so so so fortunate, but I also feel RICH RICH RICH!!! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dacalo on December 22, 2020, 12:30:26 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 21, 2020, 07:17:48 PM

Quote from: dacalo on December 21, 2020, 06:12:22 PM

We jumped a thread and went from ~$880k NW to $3.2M a few months back due to an IPO. Very grateful but we sure don't feel "rich." Everything is still the same, our cars, our spending habits, etc. I also don't feel secure enough to just quit my job. I am in my early 40's with a family of 2 children. Wife and I haven't told anyone about our recent success.

Going to keep on going, may be one more year, and see where we are at then.

Congrats!

Diversify and lock in the bulk of those gains.    Doesn't matter if staying with that IPO company ***might*** end up gaining you more because it also ***might*** make you lose those gains too.

You've now "won" the money game, now your job is not to lose it.

Thank you, you are absolutely right. We are Bogleheads through and through and most will be dumped to index ETF and bonds. Probably will keep about 10% of the shares to see what happens. Also the numbers are post-tax using a conservative tax rate so hopefully it will be slightly higher.

Now that we are "here," I've noticed that we now have a LOT more options, such as either concentrating paying down the mortgage (but it's only 2.875% for 30 years), keep accumulating, or increase spending (which will be hard for us because we aren't spenders) or all of above.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 22, 2020, 12:50:32 PM

Quote from: dacalo on December 22, 2020, 12:30:26 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 21, 2020, 07:17:48 PM

Quote from: dacalo on December 21, 2020, 06:12:22 PM

We jumped a thread and went from ~$880k NW to $3.2M a few months back due to an IPO. Very grateful but we sure don't feel "rich." Everything is still the same, our cars, our spending habits, etc. I also don't feel secure enough to just quit my job. I am in my early 40's with a family of 2 children. Wife and I haven't told anyone about our recent success.

Going to keep on going, may be one more year, and see where we are at then.

Congrats!

Diversify and lock in the bulk of those gains.    Doesn't matter if staying with that IPO company ***might*** end up gaining you more because it also ***might*** make you lose those gains too.

You've now "won" the money game, now your job is not to lose it.

Thank you, you are absolutely right. We are Bogleheads through and through and most will be dumped to index ETF and bonds. Probably will keep about 10% of the shares to see what happens. Also the numbers are post-tax using a conservative tax rate so hopefully it will be slightly higher.

Now that we are "here," I've noticed that we now have a LOT more options, such as either concentrating paying down the mortgage (but it's only 2.875% for 30 years), keep accumulating, or increase spending (which will be hard for us because we aren't spenders) or all of above.

Now you can plan a very long retirement.  With the world mostly shut down it's a good time for thinking about what you really want to do. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 22, 2020, 02:24:37 PM

Quote from: BlueHouse on December 22, 2020, 06:37:17 AM

Quote from: brooklynmoney on December 21, 2020, 08:36:23 PM

I know what it means to not feel rich. I’m basically on this thread in term of my liquid investments and I live in a one bedroom apartment. I have never lived in anything larger. Well my condo has a small den like room haha.

Huh.  I feel rich.  I open up my spreadsheet and get giddy and then start whispering to myself "holy crap, I'm rich!".  Of course, I don't feel rich enough to stop working, but I see all those zeroes on my accounts and am astounded because I just never thought I'd be here.  I feel so so so fortunate, but I also feel RICH RICH RICH!!!

Its not the number of zeros that matter.. Just their position relative to non zero numbers..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 23, 2020, 10:11:12 AM

Tallying up our expenses for the year (we live in an inner suburb of New York City in New Jersey)

Home(property tax, insurance, maintenance): 23300
Food: 10000
Car (Insurance, maintenance, fuel): 8700
Utilities + Internet + Phone: 10000
Gardening + maid:   6100
Entertainment (mostly online subscriptions): 3000
Clothing: 2000
Fitness: 4000
Hobbies: 1000
Travel: 5000
   
Total   73100

Clothing and commute expenses were lower than usual. But commute expenses will be zero for me in the future! Travel was not much either, mostly one road trip and a couple of family related trips I had to make./

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 23, 2020, 11:44:23 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on December 22, 2020, 06:37:17 AM

Quote from: brooklynmoney on December 21, 2020, 08:36:23 PM

I know what it means to not feel rich. I’m basically on this thread in term of my liquid investments and I live in a one bedroom apartment. I have never lived in anything larger. Well my condo has a small den like room haha.

Huh.  I feel rich.  I open up my spreadsheet and get giddy and then start whispering to myself "holy crap, I'm rich!".  Of course, I don't feel rich enough to stop working, but I see all those zeroes on my accounts and am astounded because I just never thought I'd be here.  I feel so so so fortunate, but I also feel RICH RICH RICH!!!

I’m with Blue House.  I have felt “holy crap, I’m rich” since about 2004, when it was actually holy crap I’m going to be rich.  It’s more so now when I look at what my balances are doing with me basically doing nothing and I’m gobsmacked.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on December 23, 2020, 11:54:22 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 23, 2020, 11:44:23 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on December 22, 2020, 06:37:17 AM

Quote from: brooklynmoney on December 21, 2020, 08:36:23 PM

I know what it means to not feel rich. I’m basically on this thread in term of my liquid investments and I live in a one bedroom apartment. I have never lived in anything larger. Well my condo has a small den like room haha.

Huh.  I feel rich.  I open up my spreadsheet and get giddy and then start whispering to myself "holy crap, I'm rich!".  Of course, I don't feel rich enough to stop working, but I see all those zeroes on my accounts and am astounded because I just never thought I'd be here.  I feel so so so fortunate, but I also feel RICH RICH RICH!!!

I’m with Blue House.  I have felt “holy crap, I’m rich” since about 2004, when it was actually holy crap I’m going to be rich.  It’s more so now when I look at what my balances are doing with me basically doing nothing and I’m gobsmacked.

Another vote for giddy rich. Yes, we still choose to have a roommate, drive one, old car and rarely eat out, but dang if we didn't give away gobs of money and makes some lonely people very happy with reminders that we care. 1800flowers ain't cheap, but getting a phone call from my widowed aunt because she was so overjoyed by the gesture was priceless.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: shuffler on December 23, 2020, 01:53:19 PM

Quote from: ixtap on December 23, 2020, 11:54:22 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 23, 2020, 11:44:23 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on December 22, 2020, 06:37:17 AM

Quote from: brooklynmoney on December 21, 2020, 08:36:23 PM

I know what it means to not feel rich. I’m basically on this thread in term of my liquid investments and I live in a one bedroom apartment. I have never lived in anything larger. Well my condo has a small den like room haha.

Huh.  I feel rich.  I open up my spreadsheet and get giddy and then start whispering to myself "holy crap, I'm rich!".  Of course, I don't feel rich enough to stop working, but I see all those zeroes on my accounts and am astounded because I just never thought I'd be here.  I feel so so so fortunate, but I also feel RICH RICH RICH!!!

I’m with Blue House.  I have felt “holy crap, I’m rich” since about 2004, when it was actually holy crap I’m going to be rich.  It’s more so now when I look at what my balances are doing with me basically doing nothing and I’m gobsmacked.

Another vote for giddy rich. Yes, we still choose to have a roommate, drive one, old car and rarely eat out, but dang if we didn't give away gobs of money and makes some lonely people very happy with reminders that we care. 1800flowers ain't cheap, but getting a phone call from my widowed aunt because she was so overjoyed by the gesture was priceless.

Same.  Yesterday I started a donor advised fund and seeded it with $50k of appreciated stock.  It took all of 10 minutes to do.
Who the fuck am I?  To donate $50k in one go?  To start a "fund"?  To work tax laws to my advantage?  This is all new to me.
Yes, feeling pretty rich.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 23, 2020, 02:07:51 PM

Quote from: shuffler on December 23, 2020, 01:53:19 PM

... Yesterday I started a donor advised fund and seeded it with $50k of appreciated stock.  It took all of 10 minutes to do.
Who the fuck am I?  To donate $50k in one go?  To start a "fund"?  To work tax laws to my advantage?  This is all new to me.
Yes, feeling pretty rich.

Good for you!   Feels great, doesn't it!

We've now budgeted $14,300 to charity for next year.  It will be $16,100 if the $600/person covid package goes thru.    Probably end up that high anyway.

Crazy, isn't it?

Back in 1982 when I moved in with my soon-to-be wife (or so I hoped), we had almost nothing.  Net worth was in the $0 to $2,000 range.   

Took 6 years to get to middle class and then income skyrocketed after that because (a) I got lucky in the career I stumbled into by accident and happenstance and (b) we got lucky we weren't horribly ill or injured and (c) we both worked damn hard at it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 23, 2020, 09:59:34 PM

I'm on the third night shift of a seven night stretch.  Guys are all giddy that are working Christmas Eve and Christmas with me.  Why?  Holiday pay overtime!  I'm like WTF?  Yes I'll see it in my paycheck, but that amount is noise in my daily swings of net worth.  But then people unfortunately need the hopefully $2000 Covid relief checks coming their way to keep the lights on.  We are truly fortunate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on December 23, 2020, 10:10:48 PM

We didn’t get the first Covid relief payment. I’m fairly sure we won’t get the second. Not too worried about it either way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 24, 2020, 04:37:13 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on December 23, 2020, 10:10:48 PM

We didn’t get the first Covid relief payment. I’m fairly sure we won’t get the second. Not too worried about it either way.

We'll miss the cutoff for the checks most likely.  My grown kids will get them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 24, 2020, 05:54:34 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 24, 2020, 04:37:13 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on December 23, 2020, 10:10:48 PM

We didn’t get the first Covid relief payment. I’m fairly sure we won’t get the second. Not too worried about it either way.

We'll miss the cutoff for the checks most likely.  My grown kids will get them.

We had a huge income bump in 2019. We hadn't filed our taxes yet, so we got the first stimulus check. Now that our returns have been filed, we're not going to qualify for round two, even though our 2020 income is back to normal this year. That is an MPP for sure.

+2 on the DAF. I've bumped the food bank donations significantly m and watched the remaining balance continue to grow. That's Mustachian People Fun (MPF), pandemic style. I have some highly appreciated stock that I'm waiting until next year to convert. The anticipation is thrilling, lol.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 24, 2020, 09:06:20 AM

I won't get it either.  I paid a lot of taxes last year.  If my tax dollars go to help people unemployed due to Covid put food on the table for them and their kids, that is good.  It's better than the war thing they seem to be so into.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 24, 2020, 09:56:10 AM

Quote from: shuffler on December 23, 2020, 01:53:19 PM

Quote from: ixtap on December 23, 2020, 11:54:22 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 23, 2020, 11:44:23 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on December 22, 2020, 06:37:17 AM

Quote from: brooklynmoney on December 21, 2020, 08:36:23 PM

I know what it means to not feel rich. I’m basically on this thread in term of my liquid investments and I live in a one bedroom apartment. I have never lived in anything larger. Well my condo has a small den like room haha.

Huh.  I feel rich.  I open up my spreadsheet and get giddy and then start whispering to myself "holy crap, I'm rich!".  Of course, I don't feel rich enough to stop working, but I see all those zeroes on my accounts and am astounded because I just never thought I'd be here.  I feel so so so fortunate, but I also feel RICH RICH RICH!!!

I’m with Blue House.  I have felt “holy crap, I’m rich” since about 2004, when it was actually holy crap I’m going to be rich.  It’s more so now when I look at what my balances are doing with me basically doing nothing and I’m gobsmacked.

Another vote for giddy rich. Yes, we still choose to have a roommate, drive one, old car and rarely eat out, but dang if we didn't give away gobs of money and makes some lonely people very happy with reminders that we care. 1800flowers ain't cheap, but getting a phone call from my widowed aunt because she was so overjoyed by the gesture was priceless.

Same.  Yesterday I started a donor advised fund and seeded it with $50k of appreciated stock.  It took all of 10 minutes to do.
Who the fuck am I?  To donate $50k in one go?  To start a "fund"?  To work tax laws to my advantage?  This is all new to me.
Yes, feeling pretty rich.

Yep, a DAF was one of the best moves I made, donated $100k during an unusually huge year for my business and between the deduction during that huge year and tossing away those gains on the appreciated stock I used it basically only cost me 50k.  I'll use this for most of giving during our RE years when the charitable deduction will probably be worthless to me anyway.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: brooklynmoney on December 24, 2020, 11:56:35 AM

Quote from: shuffler on December 23, 2020, 01:53:19 PM

Quote from: ixtap on December 23, 2020, 11:54:22 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 23, 2020, 11:44:23 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on December 22, 2020, 06:37:17 AM

Quote from: brooklynmoney on December 21, 2020, 08:36:23 PM

I know what it means to not feel rich. I’m basically on this thread in term of my liquid investments and I live in a one bedroom apartment. I have never lived in anything larger. Well my condo has a small den like room haha.

Huh.  I feel rich.  I open up my spreadsheet and get giddy and then start whispering to myself "holy crap, I'm rich!".  Of course, I don't feel rich enough to stop working, but I see all those zeroes on my accounts and am astounded because I just never thought I'd be here.  I feel so so so fortunate, but I also feel RICH RICH RICH!!!

I’m with Blue House.  I have felt “holy crap, I’m rich” since about 2004, when it was actually holy crap I’m going to be rich.  It’s more so now when I look at what my balances are doing with me basically doing nothing and I’m gobsmacked.

Another vote for giddy rich. Yes, we still choose to have a roommate, drive one, old car and rarely eat out, but dang if we didn't give away gobs of money and makes some lonely people very happy with reminders that we care. 1800flowers ain't cheap, but getting a phone call from my widowed aunt because she was so overjoyed by the gesture was priceless.

Same.  Yesterday I started a donor advised fund and seeded it with $50k of appreciated stock.  It took all of 10 minutes to do.
Who the fuck am I?  To donate $50k in one go?  To start a "fund"?  To work tax laws to my advantage?  This is all new to me.
Yes, feeling pretty rich.

I meant it more from a stealth wealth perspective. From the outside you would never know. But I have  the same sense of wonder when I look at my net worth. But then I feel weird about it and just go on with life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dacalo on December 24, 2020, 01:21:04 PM

DAF? Great suggestion. Once our situation is more clear, wife and I talked about giving more (both financially and time wise).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 25, 2020, 02:49:51 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 23, 2020, 09:59:34 PM

I'm on the third night shift of a seven night stretch.  Guys are all giddy that are working Christmas Eve and Christmas with me.  Why?  Holiday pay overtime!  I'm like WTF?  Yes I'll see it in my paycheck, but that amount is noise in my daily swings of net worth.  But then people unfortunately need the hopefully $2000 Covid relief checks coming their way to keep the lights on.  We are truly fortunate.

Same here, working 12s until “next” year.  But I’m on a day shift.  3 holidays plus 2 days off in addition to an extra 4 hours every day. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 25, 2020, 02:52:01 PM

Quote from: dacalo on December 24, 2020, 01:21:04 PM

DAF? Great suggestion. Once our situation is more clear, wife and I talked about giving more (both financially and time wise).

What’s great is once it’s in there I find it makes it easier to give.  I can’t use that money for anything else.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BECABECA on December 25, 2020, 04:46:38 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 25, 2020, 02:52:01 PM

Quote from: dacalo on December 24, 2020, 01:21:04 PM

DAF? Great suggestion. Once our situation is more clear, wife and I talked about giving more (both financially and time wise).

What’s great is once it’s in there I find it makes it easier to give.  I can’t use that money for anything else.

And since you don’t need a donation receipt because you already claimed the tax break when you transferred it to the DAF originally, you can give anonymously and stay off all the mailing lists.

MPP: I think we will end up with less money left at end of life to go to charities if we start doing roth conversions (since it’s not looking like we are going to need any funds from our traditional retirement accounts to live on). I think the way to go might be to designate charities as the traditional IRA beneficiary so it all goes tax free. And apparently  (https://www.investopedia.com/taxes/can-i-use-money-my-ira-donate-charity/) up to 100k of required minimum distributions can be donated tax free each year once RMDs kick in at 72.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 25, 2020, 05:05:39 PM

Quote from: BECABECA on December 25, 2020, 04:46:38 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 25, 2020, 02:52:01 PM

Quote from: dacalo on December 24, 2020, 01:21:04 PM

DAF? Great suggestion. Once our situation is more clear, wife and I talked about giving more (both financially and time wise).

What’s great is once it’s in there I find it makes it easier to give.  I can’t use that money for anything else.

And since you don’t need a donation receipt because you already claimed the tax break when you transferred it to the DAF originally, you can give anonymously and stay off all the mailing lists.

If you get audited, wouldn't those donation receipts be pretty important in establishing you didn't give it to yourself?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 25, 2020, 05:12:54 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 25, 2020, 05:05:39 PM

Quote from: BECABECA on December 25, 2020, 04:46:38 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 25, 2020, 02:52:01 PM

Quote from: dacalo on December 24, 2020, 01:21:04 PM

DAF? Great suggestion. Once our situation is more clear, wife and I talked about giving more (both financially and time wise).

What’s great is once it’s in there I find it makes it easier to give.  I can’t use that money for anything else.

And since you don’t need a donation receipt because you already claimed the tax break when you transferred it to the DAF originally, you can give anonymously and stay off all the mailing lists.

If you get audited, wouldn't those donation receipts be pretty important in establishing you didn't give it to yourself?

No. You can't give it to yourself. The whole giving process is simple and streamlined, and it leaves a lovely paper trail. My favorite parts of a DAF are watching the remaining balance grow and having a complete history of my charitable giving. It really is a mustachian kind of fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BECABECA on December 25, 2020, 06:55:53 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 25, 2020, 05:12:54 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 25, 2020, 05:05:39 PM

Quote from: BECABECA on December 25, 2020, 04:46:38 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 25, 2020, 02:52:01 PM

Quote from: dacalo on December 24, 2020, 01:21:04 PM

DAF? Great suggestion. Once our situation is more clear, wife and I talked about giving more (both financially and time wise).

What’s great is once it’s in there I find it makes it easier to give.  I can’t use that money for anything else.

And since you don’t need a donation receipt because you already claimed the tax break when you transferred it to the DAF originally, you can give anonymously and stay off all the mailing lists.

If you get audited, wouldn't those donation receipts be pretty important in establishing you didn't give it to yourself?

No. You can't give it to yourself. The whole giving process is simple and streamlined, and it leaves a lovely paper trail. My favorite parts of a DAF are watching the remaining balance grow and having a complete history of my charitable giving. It really is a mustachian kind of fun.

Right, once it’s in the DAF, it’s technically not your money anymore. You only need the receipt for the initial transfer to the DAF for an audit. You can’t get the DAF administrator to make a disbursement to yourself or any non-charity organization. You (the “donor”) are just “advising” them on where you’d like them to donate the money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 26, 2020, 08:30:28 AM

Quote from: BECABECA on December 25, 2020, 06:55:53 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 25, 2020, 05:12:54 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 25, 2020, 05:05:39 PM

Quote from: BECABECA on December 25, 2020, 04:46:38 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 25, 2020, 02:52:01 PM

Quote from: dacalo on December 24, 2020, 01:21:04 PM

DAF? Great suggestion. Once our situation is more clear, wife and I talked about giving more (both financially and time wise).

What’s great is once it’s in there I find it makes it easier to give.  I can’t use that money for anything else.

And since you don’t need a donation receipt because you already claimed the tax break when you transferred it to the DAF originally, you can give anonymously and stay off all the mailing lists.

If you get audited, wouldn't those donation receipts be pretty important in establishing you didn't give it to yourself?

No. You can't give it to yourself. The whole giving process is simple and streamlined, and it leaves a lovely paper trail. My favorite parts of a DAF are watching the remaining balance grow and having a complete history of my charitable giving. It really is a mustachian kind of fun.

Right, once it’s in the DAF, it’s technically not your money anymore. You only need the receipt for the initial transfer to the DAF for an audit. You can’t get the DAF administrator to make a disbursement to yourself or any non-charity organization. You (the “donor”) are just “advising” them on where you’d like them to donate the money.

That's right, I was actually unaware it was like this when I first looked into it.  I assumed it would work like contributing to a 529 where you stayed the owner, and you could cut yourself or another a check that you would then have to make sure follows the rules (and have evidence to that fact) or you would owe taxes/penalties.  But its much much easier than that, you no longer own the money, can't get it back, and its administered by someone else (like Vanguard), so its totally care-free.  Beyond just making for a easy way to take advantage of a huge deduction in a high income year, for anyone thinking of setting up a foundation or the like that is really just gonna give money away over time to other charities this is the zero headache path. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 28, 2020, 08:50:36 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 23, 2020, 10:11:12 AM

Tallying up our expenses for the year (we live in an inner suburb of New York City in New Jersey)

Home(property tax, insurance, maintenance): 23300
Food: 10000
Car (Insurance, maintenance, fuel): 8700
Utilities + Internet + Phone: 10000
Gardening + maid:   6100
Entertainment (mostly online subscriptions): 3000
Clothing: 2000
Fitness: 4000
Hobbies: 1000
Travel: 5000
   
Total   73100

Clothing and commute expenses were lower than usual. But commute expenses will be zero for me in the future! Travel was not much either, mostly one road trip and a couple of family related trips I had to make./

23K for home related stuff..*not* including mortgage?  I'm assuming most of it is property taxes?  If so, I've heard that prop taxes are insane out east...but that is just...insane.  :-)  Of course, you didn't point out how large your house is....the 'gardening plus maid' makes me wonder...haha.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on December 28, 2020, 09:47:03 AM

The I feel/don't feel rich comments are a weird feelings.   I know I am rich, by virtue of being in this thread automatically makes you/me rich by definition.   On the other hand as others have said I live in a nice but modest house (certainly relative to NW) but is average for my area, I drive a 14 year old car that has some dings and bruises and many people say I should get a new one (but it only has 100k miles and fits me like a glove), I have 3 kids that are in a variety of expensive activities that sometimes makes the cash flow seem like its not enough (btw it is and was always part of the budget), and we have many friends that are high earners and spenders with all the fanciness that that affords - so sometimes we can feel not rich but we know we are.   

One thing that did contribute to me not feeling rich was the forces of comparison as it related to my job when I had it as my clients were extremely HNW - most were worth more than $50mil and had a couple billionaires, the ones that had $10mil were viewed as "poor" or "inadequate"....to think $10mil as inadequate....hahahaha. 

But it feels very fortunate to be able to meet the expression of "You can have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want?"  The second part of that though is what keep so many on the treadmill.   

A thing that achieving high income and high worth has robbed me of is the joy I used to get in high school when I would get my paltry paycheck from my part time job - I was always excited and felt rich on pay day. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on December 28, 2020, 09:57:54 AM

The amount people pay in property taxes in some places astounds me.

Because we have a low on-paper income (currently living primarily off savings) and SO now is old enough to apply for the senior citizen tax exemption we were able to drop our property tax bill from over 8k to just under 2.5k.  On a house valued at around 1 mill.   Nice perk if you qualify and it isn't that hard since they raised the limit -- discounts start at just over 58k of annual household income (65% of the county median income), used to be just 40k.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 28, 2020, 10:10:33 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 28, 2020, 08:50:36 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 23, 2020, 10:11:12 AM

Tallying up our expenses for the year (we live in an inner suburb of New York City in New Jersey)

Home(property tax, insurance, maintenance): 23300
Food: 10000
Car (Insurance, maintenance, fuel): 8700
Utilities + Internet + Phone: 10000
Gardening + maid:   6100
Entertainment (mostly online subscriptions): 3000
Clothing: 2000
Fitness: 4000
Hobbies: 1000
Travel: 5000
   
Total   73100

Clothing and commute expenses were lower than usual. But commute expenses will be zero for me in the future! Travel was not much either, mostly one road trip and a couple of family related trips I had to make./

23K for home related stuff..*not* including mortgage?  I'm assuming most of it is property taxes?  If so, I've heard that prop taxes are insane out east...but that is just...insane.  :-)  Of course, you didn't point out how large your house is....the 'gardening plus maid' makes me wonder...haha.

Heh - Chez 2sk22 is about 2500 square feet and our entire plot is 75 ft by 100ft. Truly we belong on the "the lifestyles of the rich and famous" :-)

We don't have a mortgage - paid it off a few years ago. Property tax is undoubtedly high compared to most of the country but we can afford it without any problem. The way I see it, the whole point of FATFire is to be able to live wherever I want. Schools are great and I love the location. I can see the tips of the new supertall buildings in Manhattan from my house and yet its really quiet in my neighborhood.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on December 30, 2020, 11:58:32 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on December 13, 2020, 10:40:35 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 13, 2020, 08:03:15 PM

Haha yeah and that $20k is roughly what we pull from our investments for an entire YEAR of spending..

The farrier was over a couple of weeks back and in the time she took to trim the horse's feet (about an hour) I had made roughly $10k..:)

It really is hard to remain quite so uptight about money beyond $2M saved.

Sounds like you should buy some more horses!  ;)

Ha ha.  Here's an old joke: 
Q: " What's the best way to make a small  fortune in horses?"
A: "Start out with a large fortune!"

Horse poor is a common state of affairs.  In spite of my Mustachian ways, I'd say that my horses have reduced my NW by at least 1MM over my lifetime.  It's an expensive passion.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on December 31, 2020, 10:15:08 AM

2020 wasn't all bad.  I'm looking at DAFs now to figure out how to share some of my riches.

12/29/2019    $1,831,601
1/30/2020    $1,976,480
2/19/2020    $2,016,318
3/5/2020    $1,899,966
4/6/2020    $1,632,518
5/19/2020    $1,855,858
6/29/2020    $1,955,450
7/15/2020    $2,083,885
8/27/2020    $2,185,125
9/27/2020    $2,164,086
10/29/2020    $2,230,486
11/27/2020    $2,387,808
12/31/2020    $2,484,749

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 31, 2020, 04:02:51 PM

Hello you people, I said I hoped to be able to “officially” be here in 2021, but even without being able to see my TSP until tomorrow I am at $2,003,xxx today.  I now longer count my pension with fuzzy math to get me here, but I do count the ~29k I would get if I “cashed out” my pension.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on December 31, 2020, 04:59:42 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 31, 2020, 04:02:51 PM

Hello you people, I said I hoped to be able to “officially” be here in 2021, but even without being able to see my TSP until tomorrow I am at $2,003,xxx today.  I now longer count my pension with fuzzy math to get me here, but I do count the ~29k I would get if I “cashed out” my pension.

Congrats, welcome to the club! I count my lump sum pension as well in my NW.

Stock market up yet again, how long can it go...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 31, 2020, 05:01:32 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 31, 2020, 04:02:51 PM

Hello you people, I said I hoped to be able to “officially” be here in 2021, but even without being able to see my TSP until tomorrow I am at $2,003,xxx today.  I now longer count my pension with fuzzy math to get me here, but I do count the ~29k I would get if I “cashed out” my pension.

Nice.. I too have noticed I no longer count the "value" of our pensions or the value of the house now that wealth has increased..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on December 31, 2020, 06:41:16 PM

These numbers are in millions, and are baffling.  Our net worth increased $500k just in the last 3 months due to market appreciation.  that is more than 90+% of the US population makes in a year on income alone?

and i don't own TSLA, or Nikola, or any of the other high flyers. mostly index funds.

At the beginning of this year i was thinking "we are set".  Then, we gained nearly $2MM this year due to heavy rebalancing and large one-time bonuses.  and i still have one more year syndrome.

this isn't a humblebrag or even celebratory.  i am no happier than i was $2MM ago...i don't recall how much money i wanted to have when i was 20 or even 30 years old but it certainly wasn't $6MM.  and i think i was happier when i was poor and 25 years old...
   
Liquid Net Worth   Home   Change   Total
12/31/2016   $1.371    $0.56       $1.93
Jan-17   $1.444    $0.56    $79    $2.01
Feb-17   $1.467    $0.57    $29    $2.04
Mar-17   $1.535    $0.57    $73    $2.11
Apr-17   $1.552    $0.58    $24    $2.13
May-17   $1.600    $0.58    $50    $2.18
Jun-17   $1.636    $0.58    $38    $2.22
Jul-17   $1.741    $0.59    $107    $2.33
Aug-17   $1.788    $0.59    $49    $2.38
Sep-17   $1.821    $0.59    $35    $2.41
Oct-17   $2.019    $0.64    $243    $2.65
Nov-17   $2.100    $0.64    $83    $2.74
Dec-17   $2.167    $0.64    $70    $2.81
Jan-18   $2.228    $0.70    $123    $2.93
Feb-18   $2.196    $0.75    $15    $2.95
Mar-18   $2.216    $0.75    $20    $2.97
Apr-18   $2.279    $0.75    $63    $3.03
May-18   $2.340    $0.75    $61    $3.09
Jun-18   $2.395    $0.75    $55    $3.15
Jul-18   $2.445    $0.75    $50    $3.19
Aug-18   $2.495    $0.75    $50    $3.24
Sep-18   $2.500    $0.75    $5    $3.25
Oct-18   $2.417    $0.75    ($83)   $3.17
Nov-18   $2.482    $0.75    $65    $3.23
Dec-18   $2.406    $0.75    ($76)   $3.16
Jan-19   $2.594    $0.75    $188    $3.34
Feb-19   $2.685    $0.75    $91    $3.43
Mar-19   $2.700    $0.75    $15    $3.45
Apr-19   $2.872    $0.75    $172    $3.62
May-19   $2.806    $0.75    ($66)   $3.56
Jun-19   $2.935    $0.75    $129    $3.69
Jul-19   $2.993    $0.75    $58    $3.74
Aug-19   $3.006    $0.75    $12    $3.76
Sep-19   $3.035    $0.75    $30    $3.79
Oct-19   $3.124    $0.75    $88    $3.87
Nov-19   $3.186    $0.75    $62    $3.94
Dec-19   $3.357    $0.75    $171    $4.11
Jan-20   $3.590    $0.75    $232    $4.34
Feb-20   $3.453    $0.78    ($112)   $4.23
Mar-20   $2.863    $1.10    ($265)   $3.96
Apr-20   $3.546    $1.10    $685    $4.65
May-20   $3.726    $1.10    $181    $4.83
Jun-20   $3.811    $1.10    $87    $4.92
Jul-20   $4.028    $1.11    $218    $5.13
Aug-20   $4.242    $1.11    $217    $5.35
Sep-20   $4.473    $1.11    $232    $5.58
Oct-20   $4.460    $0.98    ($145)   $5.44
Nov-20   $4.893    $0.98    $435    $5.87
Dec-20   $5.062    $0.98    $171    $6.04

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 01, 2021, 04:00:50 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on December 31, 2020, 06:41:16 PM

Liquid Net Worth   Home   Change   Total
12/31/2016   $1.371    $0.56       $1.93
Jan-17   $1.444    $0.56    $79    $2.01
...
Dec-20   $5.062    $0.98    $171    $6.04

So you're up over 250% for the year? Thats mind blowing :-)

I just tallied up and we finished the year up 22% in my household and I was more than satisfied with that!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on January 01, 2021, 04:19:50 AM

Wow @wannabe-stache   that is amazing!    Makes me want to stick around to see when I can increase by $1M in a year.
I doubt I’ll make it that long, but cool goal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roboturner on January 01, 2021, 08:48:53 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on September 01, 2020, 11:08:45 AM

Spoiler: show

Q2 2016:
LNW: 528k
TNW: 720k

Q3 2016:
LNW: 652k
TNW: 845k

YE 2016:
LNW: 685k
TNW: 893k

Q1 2017:
LNW: 800k
TNW: 1001k

Q2 2017:
LNW: 845k
TNW: 1060k

Q3 2017:
LNW: 921k
TNW: 1142k

YE 2017:
LNW: 1,012k
TNW: 1,230k

Q1 2018:
LNW: 1.09 MM
TNW: 1.33 MM

Q2 2018:
LNW: 1.16 MM
TNW: 1.45 MM

Q3 2018:
LNW: 1.28 MM
TNW: 1.57 MM

YE 2018:
LNW: 1.14 MM
TNW: 1.43 MM

Q1 2019:
LNW: 1.41 MM
TNW: 1.71 MM

Q2 2019:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.78 MM

Q3 2019:
LNW: 1.64 MM
TNW: 1.82 MM

YE 2019:
LNW: 1.84 MM
TNW: 2.02 MM

Q1 2020:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.79 MM

Q2 2020:
LNW: 1.94 MM
TNW: 2.15 MM

Q3 2020:
LNW: 2.12 MM
TNW: 2.46 MM

YE 2020:
LNW: 2.40 MM
TNW: 2.74 MM

Great end to the year, hoping for more to come. Happy New Year all!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 01, 2021, 09:21:10 AM

What a year!

Even in my balanced portfolio I made 15% to exit the year at $2636M liquid.. Even in retirement!

Compound interest really is an amazing concept!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 01, 2021, 11:53:07 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 01, 2021, 04:00:50 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on December 31, 2020, 06:41:16 PM

Liquid Net Worth   Home   Change   Total
12/31/2016   $1.371    $0.56       $1.93
Jan-17   $1.444    $0.56    $79    $2.01
...
Dec-20   $5.062    $0.98    $171    $6.04

So you're up over 250% for the year? Thats mind blowing :-)

I just tallied up and we finished the year up 22% in my household and I was more than satisfied with that!

Pretty sure that's January 2017 through December 2020, not January 17, 2020 through December 20, 2020.  Still impressive, but I think you misread their post.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on January 01, 2021, 11:57:34 AM

$2.43MM as of the end of the year.  I expected it would take much longer to hit this point, but I am grateful to be here.  Our consumerism hit hard at year end and we added a 19' travel trailer and a 2018 Nissan Pathfinder as a tow vehicle to our ever growing fleet of cars and things.  We will find out whether we are trailer people who can live in a tiny space and build our retirement home from the ground up while living on the land....Or whether we like our creature comforts too much. :-) We are calling the trailer our COVID camper.  So far it's costing about $3,000 per night to stay there....looking forward to reducing the cost per night quickly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 01, 2021, 12:04:20 PM

Ended year at 2.65m NW, was as low as 1.9m in March.

Yet I agree with the earlier comment about happiness. I was surely happier in my 20’s and broke vs now, in my 40’s and working a job I hate. I guess

Still, so much to be thankful for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: shuffler on January 01, 2021, 12:35:07 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 01, 2021, 09:21:10 AM

Even in my balanced portfolio I made 15% to exit the year at $2636M liquid.

The forum's first billionaire?  Welcome to the three-comma-club!   ;^)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on January 01, 2021, 01:04:02 PM

I think maybe exflyboy is just confusing M with k...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on January 01, 2021, 01:20:04 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on January 01, 2021, 01:04:02 PM

I think maybe exflyboy is just confusing M with k...

M = 1,000, roman numeral.   Also, financial industry uses M for thousands and MM for millions

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 01, 2021, 01:25:33 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 01, 2021, 11:53:07 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 01, 2021, 04:00:50 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on December 31, 2020, 06:41:16 PM

Liquid Net Worth   Home   Change   Total
12/31/2016   $1.371    $0.56       $1.93
Jan-17   $1.444    $0.56    $79    $2.01
...
Dec-20   $5.062    $0.98    $171    $6.04

So you're up over 250% for the year? Thats mind blowing :-)

I just tallied up and we finished the year up 22% in my household and I was more than satisfied with that!

Pretty sure that's January 2017 through December 2020, not January 17, 2020 through December 20, 2020.  Still impressive, but I think you misread their post.

Oops indeed :-) Its 41% but as you say, that's still pretty impressive.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SuperSecretName on January 01, 2021, 01:38:16 PM

Never thought I'd be joining this thread, but here we are.  As the saying goes, the first million is the hardest.  Aside from all the normal stuff that we all do to get here, what pushed me over this line was Banksy.  I have a few of his prints, and his market just went bananas this year.  Basically doubled in value.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 01, 2021, 04:26:03 PM

Finished the year at roughly 2,453,000 not including a 800k paid for house total 3,253,000 Round numbers up from a year and a month  ago 2,600,000 with a 345k house totaling 2,945,000.  Being fire'd and numbers going up is a bonus for sure. Plus updated all our paid for cars. Withdrawal rate due to pandemic for non house improvement items was down almost a full percentage point as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 01, 2021, 04:29:03 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 01, 2021, 04:26:03 PM

Finished the year at roughly 2,453,000 not including a 800k paid for house total 3,253,000 Round numbers up from a year and a month  ago 2,600,000 with a 345k house totaling 2,945,000.  Being fire'd and numbers going up is a bonus for sure. Plus updated all our paid for cars. Withdrawal rate due to pandemic for non house improvement items was down almost a full percentage point as well.

Exactly, our WR was roughly 0.68%... This is starting to be a (good) problem!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on January 01, 2021, 06:24:51 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 01, 2021, 04:00:50 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on December 31, 2020, 06:41:16 PM

Liquid Net Worth   Home   Change   Total
12/31/2016   $1.371    $0.56       $1.93
Jan-17   $1.444    $0.56    $79    $2.01
...
Dec-20   $5.062    $0.98    $171    $6.04

So you're up over 250% for the year? Thats mind blowing :-)

I just tallied up and we finished the year up 22% in my household and I was more than satisfied with that!

over the year 2020 we went from $4.1mm to $6.0mm.  that's an increase of 47%.  still, amazing, but mostly due to bonuses that were paid during the course of 2020 and invested primarily in equities.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on January 01, 2021, 06:28:55 PM

Quote from: BlueHouse on January 01, 2021, 04:19:50 AM

Wow @wannabe-stache   that is amazing!    Makes me want to stick around to see when I can increase by $1M in a year.
I doubt I’ll make it that long, but cool goal.

thanks.  i am still not sure how to get comfortable with quitting work and drawing down.  after 20 years of working and saving, missing that endorphin rush of seeing your accounts go up seems very difficult to give up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 01, 2021, 06:42:32 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on January 01, 2021, 06:28:55 PM

Quote from: BlueHouse on January 01, 2021, 04:19:50 AM

Wow @wannabe-stache   that is amazing!    Makes me want to stick around to see when I can increase by $1M in a year.
I doubt I’ll make it that long, but cool goal.

thanks.  i am still not sure how to get comfortable with quitting work and drawing down.  after 20 years of working and saving, missing that endorphin rush of seeing your accounts go up seems very difficult to give up.

I find I get a great endorphin rush from (a) not getting up too damn early to go to work and (b) never attending a work meeting I don't want to attend and (c) doing pretty much what I damn well please instead of whatever some manager tells me to do.

Seeing those balances go up is awesome, but after you've got enough and a bit more, it pales in comparison.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on January 01, 2021, 06:53:47 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 01, 2021, 01:20:04 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on January 01, 2021, 01:04:02 PM

I think maybe exflyboy is just confusing M with k...

M = 1,000, roman numeral.   Also, financial industry uses M for thousands and MM for millions

What can I say? I’m a metric guy. Physics and chemistry was taught in metric. K = 1,000 and M = 1,000,000. Business courses used M and MM, but really, who uses Roman numerals anymore except for Super Bowls and Star Wars movies?  We should all just go with metric at this point. Except for pints. Gotta keep pints for beer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 01, 2021, 07:13:14 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on January 01, 2021, 06:53:47 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 01, 2021, 01:20:04 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on January 01, 2021, 01:04:02 PM

I think maybe exflyboy is just confusing M with k...

M = 1,000, roman numeral.   Also, financial industry uses M for thousands and MM for millions

What can I say? I’m a metric guy. Physics and chemistry was taught in metric. K = 1,000 and M = 1,000,000. Business courses used M and MM, but really, who uses Roman numerals anymore except for Super Bowls and Star Wars movies?  We should all just go with metric at this point. Except for pints. Gotta keep pints for beer.

Well as the person who got himself confused I have no excuse. I hold professional engineering licenses in both the UK (metric) and the US (English).. Yes there is a huge irony in that statement..:).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: shuffler on January 01, 2021, 07:22:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 01, 2021, 07:13:14 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on January 01, 2021, 06:53:47 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 01, 2021, 01:20:04 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on January 01, 2021, 01:04:02 PM

I think maybe exflyboy is just confusing M with k...

M = 1,000, roman numeral.   Also, financial industry uses M for thousands and MM for millions

What can I say? I’m a metric guy. Physics and chemistry was taught in metric. K = 1,000 and M = 1,000,000. Business courses used M and MM, but really, who uses Roman numerals anymore except for Super Bowls and Star Wars movies?  We should all just go with metric at this point. Except for pints. Gotta keep pints for beer.

Well as the person who got himself confused I have no excuse. I hold professional engineering licenses in both the UK (metric) and the US (English).. Yes there is a huge irony in that statement..:).

No worries.  We're all racing from $2,000 to $4,000 (and beyond!) here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: brooklynmoney on January 01, 2021, 07:45:14 PM

Quote from: SuperSecretName on January 01, 2021, 01:38:16 PM

Never thought I'd be joining this thread, but here we are.  As the saying goes, the first million is the hardest.  Aside from all the normal stuff that we all do to get here, what pushed me over this line was Banksy.  I have a few of his prints, and his market just went bananas this year.  Basically doubled in value.

This is the coolest net worth boost I have ever heard of. I’m jealous that you own some of his work!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 01, 2021, 09:35:07 PM

Quote from: brooklynmoney on January 01, 2021, 07:45:14 PM

Quote from: SuperSecretName on January 01, 2021, 01:38:16 PM

Never thought I'd be joining this thread, but here we are.  As the saying goes, the first million is the hardest.  Aside from all the normal stuff that we all do to get here, what pushed me over this line was Banksy.  I have a few of his prints, and his market just went bananas this year.  Basically doubled in value.

This is the coolest net worth boost I have ever heard of. I’m jealous that you own some of his work!

Me too!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 02, 2021, 03:56:21 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 01, 2021, 04:29:03 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 01, 2021, 04:26:03 PM

Finished the year at roughly 2,453,000 not including a 800k paid for house total 3,253,000 Round numbers up from a year and a month  ago 2,600,000 with a 345k house totaling 2,945,000.  Being fire'd and numbers going up is a bonus for sure. Plus updated all our paid for cars. Withdrawal rate due to pandemic for non house improvement items was down almost a full percentage point as well.

Exactly, our WR was roughly 0.68%... This is starting to be a (good) problem!

Damn thats low! But your right. I was excited to finish year at exactly 2.5%. I will say though on the upside I did miss out some because I kept to much cash about 18% now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 02, 2021, 05:36:11 AM

$2,645,000 to end the year.  Not including mason jar money or real estate.  Not bad starting at 2,320,000 a year ago.  Should reach the 3 million goal by my mid 2023 retirement goal.  Lots of crazy between now and then.  It's always better in the end.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 02, 2021, 05:45:06 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 01, 2021, 06:42:32 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on January 01, 2021, 06:28:55 PM

Quote from: BlueHouse on January 01, 2021, 04:19:50 AM

Wow @wannabe-stache   that is amazing!    Makes me want to stick around to see when I can increase by $1M in a year.
I doubt I’ll make it that long, but cool goal.

thanks.  i am still not sure how to get comfortable with quitting work and drawing down.  after 20 years of working and saving, missing that endorphin rush of seeing your accounts go up seems very difficult to give up.

I find I get a great endorphin rush from (a) not getting up too damn early to go to work and (b) never attending a work meeting I don't want to attend and (c) doing pretty much what I damn well please instead of whatever some manager tells me to do.

Seeing those balances go up is awesome, but after you've got enough and a bit more, it pales in comparison.  :)

Hold on, who says your accounts don't continue to go up? They totally do, and it's an even bigger thrill when you aren't "working" for it. Try it, I assure you, it's a blast!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 02, 2021, 06:12:31 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 02, 2021, 05:45:06 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 01, 2021, 06:42:32 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on January 01, 2021, 06:28:55 PM

Quote from: BlueHouse on January 01, 2021, 04:19:50 AM

Wow @wannabe-stache   that is amazing!    Makes me want to stick around to see when I can increase by $1M in a year.
I doubt I’ll make it that long, but cool goal.

thanks.  i am still not sure how to get comfortable with quitting work and drawing down.  after 20 years of working and saving, missing that endorphin rush of seeing your accounts go up seems very difficult to give up.

I find I get a great endorphin rush from (a) not getting up too damn early to go to work and (b) never attending a work meeting I don't want to attend and (c) doing pretty much what I damn well please instead of whatever some manager tells me to do.

Seeing those balances go up is awesome, but after you've got enough and a bit more, it pales in comparison.  :)

Hold on, who says your accounts don't continue to go up? They totally do, and it's an even bigger thrill when you aren't "working' for it. Try it, I assure you, it's a blast!

That's a good point.  My LNW went from $3M to $3.3M this year.  If I didn't work my half-time job this year it would gone from $3M to $3.2M.  Hmm.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on January 02, 2021, 09:10:10 AM

Quote from: SuperSecretName on January 01, 2021, 01:38:16 PM

Never thought I'd be joining this thread, but here we are.  As the saying goes, the first million is the hardest.  Aside from all the normal stuff that we all do to get here, what pushed me over this line was Banksy.  I have a few of his prints, and his market just went bananas this year.  Basically doubled in value.

How awesome is that! You made bank on Banksy!  I'm a big Banksy fan.  I saw some great murals in Jerusalem.   What a cool way to get rich.

My Real Estate investments are skyrocketing through the roof this year... estimated values year over year  from Jan 2020 to Jan 2021 are up $1,340,000 for the portfolio.
  We've made a few tweaks to get a better monthly return, and bought ourselves a beach house.   Overall,  mostly just sitting back and enjoying our life.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on January 02, 2021, 11:19:14 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 02, 2021, 05:45:06 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 01, 2021, 06:42:32 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on January 01, 2021, 06:28:55 PM

Quote from: BlueHouse on January 01, 2021, 04:19:50 AM

Wow @wannabe-stache   that is amazing!    Makes me want to stick around to see when I can increase by $1M in a year.
I doubt I’ll make it that long, but cool goal.

thanks.  i am still not sure how to get comfortable with quitting work and drawing down.  after 20 years of working and saving, missing that endorphin rush of seeing your accounts go up seems very difficult to give up.

I find I get a great endorphin rush from (a) not getting up too damn early to go to work and (b) never attending a work meeting I don't want to attend and (c) doing pretty much what I damn well please instead of whatever some manager tells me to do.

Seeing those balances go up is awesome, but after you've got enough and a bit more, it pales in comparison.  :)

Hold on, who says your accounts don't continue to go up? They totally do, and it's an even bigger thrill when you aren't "working" for it. Try it, I assure you, it's a blast!

+1.   My money makes way more money for me now than I made while I was still working.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 02, 2021, 11:25:26 AM

Quote from: lhamo on January 02, 2021, 11:19:14 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 02, 2021, 05:45:06 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 01, 2021, 06:42:32 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on January 01, 2021, 06:28:55 PM

Quote from: BlueHouse on January 01, 2021, 04:19:50 AM

Wow @wannabe-stache   that is amazing!    Makes me want to stick around to see when I can increase by $1M in a year.
I doubt I’ll make it that long, but cool goal.

thanks.  i am still not sure how to get comfortable with quitting work and drawing down.  after 20 years of working and saving, missing that endorphin rush of seeing your accounts go up seems very difficult to give up.

I find I get a great endorphin rush from (a) not getting up too damn early to go to work and (b) never attending a work meeting I don't want to attend and (c) doing pretty much what I damn well please instead of whatever some manager tells me to do.

Seeing those balances go up is awesome, but after you've got enough and a bit more, it pales in comparison.  :)

Hold on, who says your accounts don't continue to go up? They totally do, and it's an even bigger thrill when you aren't "working" for it. Try it, I assure you, it's a blast!

+1.   My money makes way more money for me now than I made while I was still working.

Yup.. I made $341k last year.. I sure as heck never made that in salary.. I'll take another one thankyou..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on January 02, 2021, 05:01:11 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 01, 2021, 04:26:03 PM

Finished the year at roughly 2,453,000 not including a 800k paid for house total 3,253,000 Round numbers up from a year and a month  ago 2,600,000 with a 345k house totaling 2,945,000.  Being fire'd and numbers going up is a bonus for sure. Plus updated all our paid for cars. Withdrawal rate due to pandemic for non house improvement items was down almost a full percentage point as well.

Dude-get the painted cabinets. If the house is $800....the extra $1K for paint is so worth your time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 03, 2021, 09:44:27 AM

All you guys making money, the ones who work are only working because they want to and not because they have to, vaccine is on it's way, world is starting to fix the global warming thing, US has not started any wars lately, new gadgets and technological innovations are on the way and the sun is shining.

It's going to be a good year.  You Betcha!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 03, 2021, 07:50:20 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 03, 2021, 09:44:27 AM

All you guys making money, the ones who work are only working because they want to and not because they have to, vaccine is on it's way, world is starting to fix the global warming thing, US has not started any wars lately, new gadgets and technological innovations are on the way and the sun is shining.

It's going to be a good year.  You Betcha!

I could have written this myself.  Pretty much the same thoughts I've been tossing lately.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 03, 2021, 09:01:35 PM

Yeah its hard to be pessimistic at this point. Sure we might get a pullback in the market but for most of us even 50% temporary haircut really isn't a big deal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 04, 2021, 03:39:50 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 03, 2021, 09:01:35 PM

Yeah its hard to be pessimistic at this point. Sure we might get a pullback in the market but for most of us even 50% temporary haircut really isn't a big deal.

Exactly! My own risk-tolerance was stress tested last February/March during the downward spike of Covid

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 04, 2021, 05:28:23 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 04, 2021, 03:39:50 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 03, 2021, 09:01:35 PM

Yeah its hard to be pessimistic at this point. Sure we might get a pullback in the market but for most of us even 50% temporary haircut really isn't a big deal.

Exactly! My own risk-tolerance was stress tested last February/March during the downward spike of Covid

Right.  I learned a lot with the Q4 2018 drop (it was around 20% s&p500).  I was a bit concerned for the first time ever, as with the 2000 drop I had very little invested and with the 2008 drop I was still a long way from retirement, which was not the case with that one (i'll likely RE in the next year).  After it had recovered and we were at a high in 2019 I made the move to put about 4 years of spending into cash (the rest of my portfolio is pretty basic 80/20).  I guess it was the right move b/c the Covid drop did not phase me, so i think I'm good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on January 04, 2021, 06:45:55 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on January 04, 2021, 05:28:23 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 04, 2021, 03:39:50 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 03, 2021, 09:01:35 PM

Yeah its hard to be pessimistic at this point. Sure we might get a pullback in the market but for most of us even 50% temporary haircut really isn't a big deal.

Exactly! My own risk-tolerance was stress tested last February/March during the downward spike of Covid

Right.  I learned a lot with the Q4 2018 drop (it was around 20% s&p500).  I was a bit concerned for the first time ever, as with the 2000 drop I had very little invested and with the 2008 drop I was still a long way from retirement, which was not the case with that one (i'll likely RE in the next year).  After it had recovered and we were at a high in 2019 I made the move to put about 4 years of spending into cash (the rest of my portfolio is pretty basic 80/20).  I guess it was the right move b/c the Covid drop did not phase me, so i think I'm good.

I FIRE'd 6/2019, it was nice to have that drop in Q4 2018 to test my resolve, arch 2020 hit and all I did was rebalance.  Note I do have a conservative AA - first I lowered equities when I FIRE'd (kind of reverse glide path, set aside for SORR), then just rebalanced when needed.   Only thing I did that was outside my plan was last month when I rebalanced but also took equities down another 5% - i might regret it but considering markets were up 13ish % in a month or so I was ok with it.   Two schools of thought that are competing - why play the game when you won vs. you can afford to take more risk with that extra capital.  I chose the former but nothing wrong with the other way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 05, 2021, 03:02:09 AM

Quote from: couponvan on January 02, 2021, 05:01:11 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 01, 2021, 04:26:03 PM

Finished the year at roughly 2,453,000 not including a 800k paid for house total 3,253,000 Round numbers up from a year and a month  ago 2,600,000 with a 345k house totaling 2,945,000.  Being fire'd and numbers going up is a bonus for sure. Plus updated all our paid for cars. Withdrawal rate due to pandemic for non house improvement items was down almost a full percentage point as well.

Dude-get the painted cabinets. If the house is $800....the extra $1K for paint is so worth your time.

Haha. I did order them. Due date January  31st.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 05, 2021, 03:03:35 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 03, 2021, 09:01:35 PM

Yeah its hard to be pessimistic at this point. Sure we might get a pullback in the market but for most of us even 50% temporary haircut really isn't a big deal.

We get anywhere near that I am a buyer!!!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 05, 2021, 06:05:00 AM

Lost 24K on paper day one of trading in 2021.  Can we have 2020 back?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 05, 2021, 06:21:19 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 05, 2021, 06:05:00 AM

Lost 24K on paper day one of trading in 2021.  Can we have 2020 back?

Hell to the NO!  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 05, 2021, 08:04:11 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 05, 2021, 06:21:19 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 05, 2021, 06:05:00 AM

Lost 24K on paper day one of trading in 2021.  Can we have 2020 back?

Hell to the NO!  :)

Just kidding 🤣

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on January 05, 2021, 10:26:37 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 05, 2021, 08:04:11 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 05, 2021, 06:21:19 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 05, 2021, 06:05:00 AM

Lost 24K on paper day one of trading in 2021.  Can we have 2020 back?

Hell to the NO!  :)

Just kidding 🤣

Sadly, I think that 2020 will be better than 2021 (with regards to COVID impact on human life anyway), shit is getting crazy in California.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/05/us/los-angeles-county-california-human-disaster-covid/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/05/us/los-angeles-county-california-human-disaster-covid/index.html)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 05, 2021, 12:22:35 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 28, 2020, 10:10:33 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 28, 2020, 08:50:36 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 23, 2020, 10:11:12 AM

Tallying up our expenses for the year (we live in an inner suburb of New York City in New Jersey)

Home(property tax, insurance, maintenance): 23300
Food: 10000
Car (Insurance, maintenance, fuel): 8700
Utilities + Internet + Phone: 10000
Gardening + maid:   6100
Entertainment (mostly online subscriptions): 3000
Clothing: 2000
Fitness: 4000
Hobbies: 1000
Travel: 5000
   
Total   73100

Clothing and commute expenses were lower than usual. But commute expenses will be zero for me in the future! Travel was not much either, mostly one road trip and a couple of family related trips I had to make./

23K for home related stuff..*not* including mortgage?  I'm assuming most of it is property taxes?  If so, I've heard that prop taxes are insane out east...but that is just...insane.  :-)  Of course, you didn't point out how large your house is....the 'gardening plus maid' makes me wonder...haha.

Heh - Chez 2sk22 is about 2500 square feet and our entire plot is 75 ft by 100ft. Truly we belong on the "the lifestyles of the rich and famous" :-)

We don't have a mortgage - paid it off a few years ago. Property tax is undoubtedly high compared to most of the country but we can afford it without any problem. The way I see it, the whole point of FATFire is to be able to live wherever I want. Schools are great and I love the location. I can see the tips of the new supertall buildings in Manhattan from my house and yet its really quiet in my neighborhood.

I get it.  I'm just always shocked at how high property taxes are out there.  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 05, 2021, 12:34:48 PM

Quote from: SuperSecretName on January 01, 2021, 01:38:16 PM

Never thought I'd be joining this thread, but here we are.  As the saying goes, the first million is the hardest.  Aside from all the normal stuff that we all do to get here, what pushed me over this line was Banksy.  I have a few of his prints, and his market just went bananas this year.  Basically doubled in value.

Wow congrats!  It is fascinating to hear how we all became members of this club. 

For me it was stock trading.   I have learned a TON over the last couple years.   Most people don't have the stomach for it.   I almost didn't either.  The way I rationalized it is that my trading account is my 'play money'.   And our retirement accounts are relatively conservative.  Well....the trading account just became much more than 'play money' in the last year or so....and pushed us into this club.   2020 was an astounding year for traders.   Not sure it will last, but I'm enjoying it while it does. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on January 05, 2021, 03:12:54 PM

Quote from: dividendman on January 05, 2021, 10:26:37 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 05, 2021, 08:04:11 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 05, 2021, 06:21:19 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 05, 2021, 06:05:00 AM

Lost 24K on paper day one of trading in 2021.  Can we have 2020 back?

Hell to the NO!  :)

Just kidding

Sadly, I think that 2020 will be better than 2021 (with regards to COVID impact on human life anyway), shit is getting crazy in California.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/05/us/los-angeles-county-california-human-disaster-covid/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/05/us/los-angeles-county-california-human-disaster-covid/index.html)

This is scary stuff. I hope the new administration can sort out the actual distribution and delivery of vaccines quickly after inauguration since we can’t seem to be intelligent enough as people to slow the spread. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on January 05, 2021, 03:30:41 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 05, 2021, 03:02:09 AM

Quote from: couponvan on January 02, 2021, 05:01:11 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 01, 2021, 04:26:03 PM

Finished the year at roughly 2,453,000 not including a 800k paid for house total 3,253,000 Round numbers up from a year and a month  ago 2,600,000 with a 345k house totaling 2,945,000.  Being fire'd and numbers going up is a bonus for sure. Plus updated all our paid for cars. Withdrawal rate due to pandemic for non house improvement items was down almost a full percentage point as well.

Dude-get the painted cabinets. If the house is $800....the extra $1K for paint is so worth your time.

I thank you - your wife thanks you.  Your house thanks you.  I should make you hand paint one just to experience the utter joy (not) of painting and then comparing the quality of your work to the quality of their work...for the $50 per cabinet difference.  Your house is really coming along!  Post-COVID party at the soccerluv house.

Haha. I did order them. Due date January  31st.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 05, 2021, 03:38:32 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 05, 2021, 12:22:35 PM

I get it.  I'm just always shocked at how high property taxes are out there.  :-)

No kidding - in the "2020 Spending" thread, I saw one person posting about their annual budget which is less than our property tax.  Mind you, we are in a "medium" priced area by the standards of north eastern NJ. A couple of towns over, the property taxes can be as high as $30k on a $1.5M house.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 05, 2021, 03:59:21 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 05, 2021, 03:38:32 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 05, 2021, 12:22:35 PM

I get it.  I'm just always shocked at how high property taxes are out there.  :-)

No kidding - in the "2020 Spending" thread, I saw one person posting about their annual budget which is less than our property tax.  Mind you, we are in a "medium" priced area by the standards of north eastern NJ. A couple of towns over, the property taxes can be as high as $30k on a $1.5M house.

Our property taxes are higher than that. It's crazy in the bay area. When we move, it will largely be due to not wanting to fund our property taxes in our retirement budget.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 05, 2021, 04:44:15 PM

Quote from: couponvan on January 05, 2021, 03:30:41 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 05, 2021, 03:02:09 AM

Quote from: couponvan on January 02, 2021, 05:01:11 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 01, 2021, 04:26:03 PM

Finished the year at roughly 2,453,000 not including a 800k paid for house total 3,253,000 Round numbers up from a year and a month  ago 2,600,000 with a 345k house totaling 2,945,000.  Being fire'd and numbers going up is a bonus for sure. Plus updated all our paid for cars. Withdrawal rate due to pandemic for non house improvement items was down almost a full percentage point as well.

Dude-get the painted cabinets. If the house is $800....the extra $1K for paint is so worth your time.

I thank you - your wife thanks you.  Your house thanks you.  I should make you hand paint one just to experience the utter joy (not) of painting and then comparing the quality of your work to the quality of their work...for the $50 per cabinet difference.  Your house is really coming along!  Post-COVID party at the soccerluv house.

Haha. I did order them. Due date January  31st.

Fingers crossed it’s an accurate delivery, unlike my stove which was ordered in July and came in December.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 06, 2021, 03:18:30 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on January 05, 2021, 04:44:15 PM

Quote from: couponvan on January 05, 2021, 03:30:41 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 05, 2021, 03:02:09 AM

Quote from: couponvan on January 02, 2021, 05:01:11 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 01, 2021, 04:26:03 PM

Finished the year at roughly 2,453,000 not including a 800k paid for house total 3,253,000 Round numbers up from a year and a month  ago 2,600,000 with a 345k house totaling 2,945,000.  Being fire'd and numbers going up is a bonus for sure. Plus updated all our paid for cars. Withdrawal rate due to pandemic for non house improvement items was down almost a full percentage point as well.

Dude-get the painted cabinets. If the house is $800....the extra $1K for paint is so worth your time.

I thank you - your wife thanks you.  Your house thanks you.  I should make you hand paint one just to experience the utter joy (not) of painting and then comparing the quality of your work to the quality of their work...for the $50 per cabinet difference.  Your house is really coming along!  Post-COVID party at the soccerluv house.

Haha. I did order them. Due date January  31st.

Fingers crossed it’s an accurate delivery, unlike my stove which was ordered in July and came in December.

Yeah that is always the thing to worry about. That or come all damaged but what are you going to do. I have so many other projects to do that if it comes late or some damage I will just keep going! haha.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on January 06, 2021, 06:10:53 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 05, 2021, 03:59:21 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 05, 2021, 03:38:32 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 05, 2021, 12:22:35 PM

I get it.  I'm just always shocked at how high property taxes are out there.  :-)

No kidding - in the "2020 Spending" thread, I saw one person posting about their annual budget which is less than our property tax.  Mind you, we are in a "medium" priced area by the standards of north eastern NJ. A couple of towns over, the property taxes can be as high as $30k on a $1.5M house.

Our property taxes are higher than that. It's crazy in the bay area. When we move, it will largely be due to not wanting to fund our property taxes in our retirement budget.

Yeah, but if your taxes in the bay area are greater than $30k then you are probably in a $3mil+ house.  You make big bucks and many others there do to, and that's great and is reflected in housing values. Property taxes in CA are actually pretty reasonable compared to the rest of the country (Not income taxes though).   

Where I am (NJ), your $3mil+ house would have taxes of $90k+.   Couple friends live in $750k houses and taxes are $25k, which floors me and I complain about mine.  Best of all is we have an income tax structure similar to CA - NJ prides itself in being in trying to be in the top 5 for all taxes with a goal of being 1 or 2 in each hahaha with the added benefit of having no real economic activity.   :(

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 06, 2021, 09:02:56 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 06, 2021, 06:10:53 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 05, 2021, 03:59:21 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 05, 2021, 03:38:32 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 05, 2021, 12:22:35 PM

I get it.  I'm just always shocked at how high property taxes are out there.  :-)

No kidding - in the "2020 Spending" thread, I saw one person posting about their annual budget which is less than our property tax.  Mind you, we are in a "medium" priced area by the standards of north eastern NJ. A couple of towns over, the property taxes can be as high as $30k on a $1.5M house.

Our property taxes are higher than that. It's crazy in the bay area. When we move, it will largely be due to not wanting to fund our property taxes in our retirement budget.

Yeah, but if your taxes in the bay area are greater than $30k then you are probably in a $3mil+ house.  You make big bucks and many others there do to, and that's great and is reflected in housing values. Property taxes in CA are actually pretty reasonable compared to the rest of the country (Not income taxes though).   

Where I am (NJ), your $3mil+ house would have taxes of $90k+.   Couple friends live in $750k houses and taxes are $25k, which floors me and I complain about mine.  Best of all is we have an income tax structure similar to CA - NJ prides itself in being in trying to be in the top 5 for all taxes with a goal of being 1 or 2 in each hahaha with the added benefit of having no real economic activity.   :(

Property taxes are largely tied to purchase price, not assessed value in our area. So, below $3M+ for purchase price (although, yes to assessed value). It's not that we can't afford it, or I don't understand the tax basis - it's that I have no desire to fund this much of my retirement budget into property taxes. We don't need to be in this particular area when our kids are out of school (~4 years) & then we'll buy a "cheap" $1m house, with a much lower tax base.

I'm very curious to see what will happen with some of the WFH changes will do to the market. So far, it's made houses in more suburban neighborhoods increase in value quite a bit due to COVID & reduced commute time. That might even spread out further, as people are willing to live further away (fewer commute days), or there might be drops as fewer people stay in the area overall.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on January 06, 2021, 09:28:00 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 05, 2021, 06:05:00 AM

Lost 24K on paper day one of trading in 2021.  Can we have 2020 back?

This morning is looking quite good.  Especially if you've got some solar.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 06, 2021, 01:03:37 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 06, 2021, 09:28:00 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 05, 2021, 06:05:00 AM

Lost 24K on paper day one of trading in 2021.  Can we have 2020 back?

This morning is looking quite good.  Especially if you've got some solar.  :)

Still want solar and batteries at my Florida house one day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on January 06, 2021, 02:41:37 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 06, 2021, 09:02:56 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 06, 2021, 06:10:53 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 05, 2021, 03:59:21 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 05, 2021, 03:38:32 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 05, 2021, 12:22:35 PM

I get it.  I'm just always shocked at how high property taxes are out there.  :-)

No kidding - in the "2020 Spending" thread, I saw one person posting about their annual budget which is less than our property tax.  Mind you, we are in a "medium" priced area by the standards of north eastern NJ. A couple of towns over, the property taxes can be as high as $30k on a $1.5M house.

Our property taxes are higher than that. It's crazy in the bay area. When we move, it will largely be due to not wanting to fund our property taxes in our retirement budget.

Yeah, but if your taxes in the bay area are greater than $30k then you are probably in a $3mil+ house.  You make big bucks and many others there do to, and that's great and is reflected in housing values. Property taxes in CA are actually pretty reasonable compared to the rest of the country (Not income taxes though).   

Where I am (NJ), your $3mil+ house would have taxes of $90k+.   Couple friends live in $750k houses and taxes are $25k, which floors me and I complain about mine.  Best of all is we have an income tax structure similar to CA - NJ prides itself in being in trying to be in the top 5 for all taxes with a goal of being 1 or 2 in each hahaha with the added benefit of having no real economic activity.   :(

Property taxes are largely tied to purchase price, not assessed value in our area. So, below $3M+ for purchase price (although, yes to assessed value). It's not that we can't afford it, or I don't understand the tax basis - it's that I have no desire to fund this much of my retirement budget into property taxes. We don't need to be in this particular area when our kids are out of school (~4 years) & then we'll buy a "cheap" $1m house, with a much lower tax base.

I'm very curious to see what will happen with some of the WFH changes will do to the market. So far, it's made houses in more suburban neighborhoods increase in value quite a bit due to COVID & reduced commute time. That might even spread out further, as people are willing to live further away (fewer commute days), or there might be drops as fewer people stay in the area overall.

Come be my neighbor in Santa Rosa?  Airport shuttle leaves from town to SF, and a decent small airport can get you to short hops.  Fire insurance payments ending recently means there are some reasonable (by CA standards) lots coming up. 

Our retirement strategy originally included a 2 BR condo in Marin along with a summer lake house in IL.  We funded mother's condo in mid 2000, but she was able to use her 1970's tax basis for it  after my father died.  It's appreciated a lot, but the taxes are low. Now DH wants a "real" house with a view. So it's build a house with an ADU for the elderly family members to live in and they can roll their tax basis into the house. Family estate planning for the future. It's a pipe dream right now to build, but we'll see. My grandmother has a $900K ish house with taxes under $500 per year. The new rules on inheritance mean you have to actually live in the house you receive-so we are making sure that the house we inherit is actually one we want to live in ourselves. My mom wants to live in a house again too, but not too big of a house.  It helps in CA to have family members who stay put in one location a LONG time. Income tax is a WHOLE other subject.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on January 07, 2021, 10:33:29 AM

I've already gained more this week, perhaps this morning, than we'll spend this year.  Trying to wrap my head around the numbers is numbing. 


I think I'll take the dog for a walk to clear my mind. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SparkyPeanut on January 07, 2021, 11:09:31 AM

That's amazing GreenEggs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on January 07, 2021, 11:32:52 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 07, 2021, 10:33:29 AM

I've already gained more this week, perhaps this morning, than we'll spend this year.  Trying to wrap my head around the numbers is numbing. 


I think I'll take the dog for a walk to clear my mind.

At the risk of being a Top is In kind of pal, it really is absurd right now. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 07, 2021, 12:33:35 PM

@couponvan - I like Santa Rosa, and would consider it. We'd prefer somewhere a bit more coastal, with cooler temperatures, but are open to ideas. Income tax... ha, yeah, entirely different conversation. None of my family is in CA, so we have no inheritance housing issues to be worried about.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on January 07, 2021, 12:39:59 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 07, 2021, 12:33:35 PM

@couponvan - I like Santa Rosa, and would consider it. We'd prefer somewhere a bit more coastal, with cooler temperatures, but are open to ideas. Income tax... ha, yeah, entirely different conversation. None of my family is in CA, so we have no inheritance housing issues to be worried about.

There are plenty of decent coastal opportunities, but of course they cost more I think. Yeah income taxes in CA are rough.  We "thought" we had the inheritance housing covered, but of course they like to change the rules on us once we're close to actually benefitting from them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 07, 2021, 01:16:26 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 06, 2021, 09:02:56 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 06, 2021, 06:10:53 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 05, 2021, 03:59:21 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 05, 2021, 03:38:32 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 05, 2021, 12:22:35 PM

I get it.  I'm just always shocked at how high property taxes are out there.  :-)

No kidding - in the "2020 Spending" thread, I saw one person posting about their annual budget which is less than our property tax.  Mind you, we are in a "medium" priced area by the standards of north eastern NJ. A couple of towns over, the property taxes can be as high as $30k on a $1.5M house.

Our property taxes are higher than that. It's crazy in the bay area. When we move, it will largely be due to not wanting to fund our property taxes in our retirement budget.

Yeah, but if your taxes in the bay area are greater than $30k then you are probably in a $3mil+ house.  You make big bucks and many others there do to, and that's great and is reflected in housing values. Property taxes in CA are actually pretty reasonable compared to the rest of the country (Not income taxes though).   

Where I am (NJ), your $3mil+ house would have taxes of $90k+.   Couple friends live in $750k houses and taxes are $25k, which floors me and I complain about mine.  Best of all is we have an income tax structure similar to CA - NJ prides itself in being in trying to be in the top 5 for all taxes with a goal of being 1 or 2 in each hahaha with the added benefit of having no real economic activity.   :(

Property taxes are largely tied to purchase price, not assessed value in our area. So, below $3M+ for purchase price (although, yes to assessed value). It's not that we can't afford it, or I don't understand the tax basis - it's that I have no desire to fund this much of my retirement budget into property taxes. We don't need to be in this particular area when our kids are out of school (~4 years) & then we'll buy a "cheap" $1m house, with a much lower tax base.

I'm very curious to see what will happen with some of the WFH changes will do to the market. So far, it's made houses in more suburban neighborhoods increase in value quite a bit due to COVID & reduced commute time. That might even spread out further, as people are willing to live further away (fewer commute days), or there might be drops as fewer people stay in the area overall.

For the record, we live in the Midwest ( Minnesota ), have a 1 acre lot, the house is worth $330K or so...and our taxes are under 6K.  We built the house a few years back for 180K...and we thought that was a lot back then!  Real estate has gone nuts...even around here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 07, 2021, 02:13:46 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 07, 2021, 11:32:52 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 07, 2021, 10:33:29 AM

I've already gained more this week, perhaps this morning, than we'll spend this year.  Trying to wrap my head around the numbers is numbing. 


I think I'll take the dog for a walk to clear my mind.

At the risk of being a Top is In kind of pal, it really is absurd right now.

The Nasdaq is up over 300.  All is good for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on January 07, 2021, 04:16:34 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 07, 2021, 01:16:26 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 06, 2021, 09:02:56 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 06, 2021, 06:10:53 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 05, 2021, 03:59:21 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 05, 2021, 03:38:32 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 05, 2021, 12:22:35 PM

I get it.  I'm just always shocked at how high property taxes are out there.  :-)

No kidding - in the "2020 Spending" thread, I saw one person posting about their annual budget which is less than our property tax.  Mind you, we are in a "medium" priced area by the standards of north eastern NJ. A couple of towns over, the property taxes can be as high as $30k on a $1.5M house.

Our property taxes are higher than that. It's crazy in the bay area. When we move, it will largely be due to not wanting to fund our property taxes in our retirement budget.

Yeah, but if your taxes in the bay area are greater than $30k then you are probably in a $3mil+ house.  You make big bucks and many others there do to, and that's great and is reflected in housing values. Property taxes in CA are actually pretty reasonable compared to the rest of the country (Not income taxes though).   

Where I am (NJ), your $3mil+ house would have taxes of $90k+.   Couple friends live in $750k houses and taxes are $25k, which floors me and I complain about mine.  Best of all is we have an income tax structure similar to CA - NJ prides itself in being in trying to be in the top 5 for all taxes with a goal of being 1 or 2 in each hahaha with the added benefit of having no real economic activity.   :(

Property taxes are largely tied to purchase price, not assessed value in our area. So, below $3M+ for purchase price (although, yes to assessed value). It's not that we can't afford it, or I don't understand the tax basis - it's that I have no desire to fund this much of my retirement budget into property taxes. We don't need to be in this particular area when our kids are out of school (~4 years) & then we'll buy a "cheap" $1m house, with a much lower tax base.

I'm very curious to see what will happen with some of the WFH changes will do to the market. So far, it's made houses in more suburban neighborhoods increase in value quite a bit due to COVID & reduced commute time. That might even spread out further, as people are willing to live further away (fewer commute days), or there might be drops as fewer people stay in the area overall.

For the record, we live in the Midwest ( Minnesota ), have a 1 acre lot, the house is worth $330K or so...and our taxes are under 6K.  We built the house a few years back for 180K...and we thought that was a lot back then!  Real estate has gone nuts...even around here.

Real Estate in California has definitely gone nuts.  Our area posted gains of 15% year over year, for single family homes.   Whew... It's heading for the moon.  Our property taxes are lower here than some investment areas we researched, such as Ohio.   Their taxes were almost double ours. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 07, 2021, 06:42:47 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 07, 2021, 10:33:29 AM

I've already gained more this week, perhaps this morning, than we'll spend this year.  Trying to wrap my head around the numbers is numbing. 


I think I'll take the dog for a walk to clear my mind.

Wow.  The one that blows me away is the realization I'm up almost 10 years of spending since the March low.  A freakin decade of expenses for the entire family. And of course that was after an initial, almost immediate, drop of 6 years worth before that bounce back.  I had already reduced risk last year as I was hitting FI, but its still quite a bit of whiplash...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 08, 2021, 02:05:32 AM

I live in Wisconsin on a very desired Lake. House is 800k and taxes are 6300$ about 3 miles from me on another lake my takes would of been 15k for the same house in the same county. Not sure how they do it in other states but here each town/village does there own tax rate. That makes our Lake more desirable.  and since I have been here not one property has been for sale. On the other lakes they always are. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 08, 2021, 04:31:48 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 08, 2021, 02:05:32 AM

I live in Wisconsin on a very desired like. House is 800k and taxes are 6300$ about 3 miles from me on another lake my takes would of been 15k for the same house in the same county. Not sure how they do it in other states but here each town/village does there own tax rate. That makes our Lake more desirable.  and since I have been here not one property has been for sale. On the other lakes they always are.

Ours are a combination of county and city here in Michigan.  Detroit due to its shrinking tax base has insanity high property taxes, at least in the high end neighborhoods like 10k on a 500k property where in the suburbs it’s 6k.  Like CA, our rates are capped yearly based on purchase price unless significant change occurs that allows them to change basis, think addition.  Mine on a 280k purchased house are $4,400.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BoonDogle on January 08, 2021, 10:12:25 AM

I suppose I'll join this thread.  Surpassed 2M in September.  Sitting at just under 2.3M end of last quarter.  I feel like I may be back in the previous thread after the next correction.  Anyway, I'm here for now.  If I ever actually make it to 4M, it will likely be a long time down the road.  Planning on retiring in the next 3 years, at which time growth will become much slower.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: CANStache on January 08, 2021, 05:12:06 PM

I joined the forums right at the end of 2019, and meant to post at the end of 2020 but missed my anniversary.

After going over and back of the $2M mark at the beginning of 2020, the rest of that ridiculous year has pushed me to $2.37M TNW as of Dec 31, 2020.  I never would have believed this was possible with the world shutting down around us and my wife no longer working, but here we are.  I can't expect another year like this again, but a couple more years of work and anything >0% market growth should land us on our number.  We still own way too much house, but that might change this year with more remote work ahead...

I hope everyone who is lucky enough to find themselves in this thread is spending some time taking care of others in any way they can.  Have a great 2021!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 09, 2021, 04:00:54 AM

Quote from: BoonDogle on January 08, 2021, 10:12:25 AM

I suppose I'll join this thread.  Surpassed 2M in September.  Sitting at just under 2.3M end of last quarter.  I feel like I may be back in the previous thread after the next correction.  Anyway, I'm here for now.  If I ever actually make it to 4M, it will likely be a long time down the road.  Planning on retiring in the next 3 years, at which time growth will become much slower.

Welcome aboard - you'll probably make $3M before you realize it :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 09, 2021, 10:51:18 AM

Quote from: BoonDogle on January 08, 2021, 10:12:25 AM

I suppose I'll join this thread.  Surpassed 2M in September.  Sitting at just under 2.3M end of last quarter.  I feel like I may be back in the previous thread after the next correction.  Anyway, I'm here for now.  If I ever actually make it to 4M, it will likely be a long time down the road.  Planning on retiring in the next 3 years, at which time growth will become much slower.

Welcome Boondogle! Once your in your in is the way I see it. Its not like there are thread Police and many peeps are close anyways so again welcome. Like 2sk22 said you'll probably be at 3M before you know it anyhow

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on January 08, 2021, 04:31:48 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 08, 2021, 02:05:32 AM

I live in Wisconsin on a very desired like. House is 800k and taxes are 6300$ about 3 miles from me on another lake my takes would of been 15k for the same house in the same county. Not sure how they do it in other states but here each town/village does there own tax rate. That makes our Lake more desirable.  and since I have been here not one property has been for sale. On the other lakes they always are.

Ours are a combination of county and city here in Michigan.  Detroit due to its shrinking tax base has insanity high property taxes, at least in the high end neighborhoods like 10k on a 500k property where in the suburbs it’s 6k.  Like CA, our rates are capped yearly based on purchase price unless significant change occurs that allows them to change basis, think addition.  Mine on a 280k purchased house are $4,400.

I am assuming ours in WI are pretty much like MI. I live almost dead center between Milwaukee and Madison and the taxes in the Cities are nuts. The taxes in the burbs arent bad unless you live on a lake and they went up 300$ this year because of the School system I live in cant get funding through. Went from 80 Million down to 40 Million still couldnt get it passed so finally just asked for an extension on the current operating budget. Kinda sad because the school is very highly rated #2 in the State and people dont realize there property values go up because of the school system and people are moving out here as well because of the schools.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on January 09, 2021, 12:40:23 PM

As of close of the markets yesterday, we joined this race for the first time with an aggregate balance of $2.005M across all our savings/retirement/investment accounts.  TNW including home equity is somewhere a little north of $2.4M.

It took us ~18 years to reach $1M LNW, and a little over 4.5 years after that to reach $2M.  Granted the first 18 years included the Dot Com crash and the '07 crash, and the last 4-5 years have been bonkers.

I expect we'll cross back and forth across the $2M mark a number of times over the next couple years.  So I'm going to stay in the $1M-$2M group as well as this one until we reach at least $2.4M...which is almost correction-proof.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on January 09, 2021, 06:06:23 PM

Not sure if I should be in this thread or not, but here I am.:)

I added up my taxable and retirement accounts, Daughter's 529, and two rental properties today and just squeaked over $2M ($2,000,888 to be precise).  Not sure it will last, but I did want to at least mark the milestone.  People seem to be using only LNW, which I guess would exclude the 529 and rental properties?  I haven't included any equity in my company as that is too speculative at this point.  I doubt that I will ever get to $4M, but I suppose stretch goals never hurt anyone. :-D

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 09, 2021, 06:37:03 PM

Quote from: Wile E. Coyote on January 09, 2021, 06:06:23 PM

Not sure if I should be in this thread or not, but here I am.:)

I added up my taxable and retirement accounts, Daughter's 529, and two rental properties today and just squeaked over $2M ($2,000,888 to be precise).  Not sure it will last, but I did want to at least mark the milestone.  People seem to be using only LNW, which I guess would exclude the 529 and rental properties?  I haven't included any equity in my company as that is too speculative at this point.  I doubt that I will ever get to $4M, but I suppose stretch goals never hurt anyone. :-D

Congrats!

I'm pretty sure that this thread doesn't have many rules as to whether you qualify or not.  Include/exclude as you see fit seems to be the way of life here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on January 09, 2021, 07:30:57 PM

Quote from: Wile E. Coyote on January 09, 2021, 06:06:23 PM

Not sure if I should be in this thread or not, but here I am.:)

I added up my taxable and retirement accounts, Daughter's 529, and two rental properties today and just squeaked over $2M ($2,000,888 to be precise).  Not sure it will last, but I did want to at least mark the milestone.  People seem to be using only LNW, which I guess would exclude the 529 and rental properties?  I haven't included any equity in my company as that is too speculative at this point.  I doubt that I will ever get to $4M, but I suppose stretch goals never hurt anyone. :-D

Welcome to the thread.   There are no Thread Police lurking around, so settle in. 
  I'm nearly all in Real Estate, with 10+ rental houses,  and hardly any liquid NW to tally up.  There's a few of us outliers in the thread with more real estate than most people.  I think I'm at 90/10 or so, and all the RE went up in double digits this year.   If I chose to cash out I'd be a whole lot richer than last year.   

 I think Net Worth is Net Worth, and if grandma's Dodge is yours to sell, you can count it in.  Most people don't count the little stuff,  though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on January 09, 2021, 08:43:17 PM

Thanks for the welcomes!!

Quote from: JoJoP on January 09, 2021, 07:30:57 PM

Quote from: Wile E. Coyote on January 09, 2021, 06:06:23 PM

Not sure if I should be in this thread or not, but here I am.:)

I added up my taxable and retirement accounts, Daughter's 529, and two rental properties today and just squeaked over $2M ($2,000,888 to be precise).  Not sure it will last, but I did want to at least mark the milestone.  People seem to be using only LNW, which I guess would exclude the 529 and rental properties?  I haven't included any equity in my company as that is too speculative at this point.  I doubt that I will ever get to $4M, but I suppose stretch goals never hurt anyone. :-D

Welcome to the thread.   There are no Thread Police lurking around, so settle in. 
  I'm nearly all in Real Estate, with 10+ rental houses,  and hardly any liquid NW to tally up.  There's a few of us outliers in the thread with more real estate than most people.  I think I'm at 90/10 or so, and all the RE went up in double digits this year.   If I chose to cash out I'd be a whole lot richer than last year.   

 I think Net Worth is Net Worth, and if grandma's Dodge is yours to sell, you can count it in.  Most people don't count the little stuff,  though.

Glad to hear there aren’t any hard and fast rules!   I decided to just include items that I consider investments (e.g. no home equity in my principal residence since we will be here for the foreseeable future). We will probably downsize eventually, but I decided not to count that since it’s tied up.   Just including investments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on January 10, 2021, 01:40:28 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 21, 2017, 09:01:19 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on April 21, 2017, 01:53:16 PM

Replying to sneak in by cheating (counting house equity for this purpose).
1.9M liquid (90% equities) and net house equity  ~0.3M.

I'm  hoping to be in honestly (liquid NW only) soon.

Lots of us will be legitimate soon.  We'll have the option of hanging out with those slouches on the 1M to 2M thread till then.  ;)

Don't worry about membership rules.  Yes I called the 1M to 2M crowd slouches.  Was practicing my snob.

This is me from over three years ago.  Not really legit.  Now almost 2.7M with no cheating.  Once you start bouncing around the 2M number the rest comes easy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 10, 2021, 06:29:55 AM

I am in the camp of totally counting home equity, it comes down to my housing is an integral part of financial plan like any other part of said financial plan.  How that plays out:

1)  In 2017, I choose to take out a modest mortgage instead of paying cash, the value borrowed instead was invested. 

2)  Growing equity in the house will effect future home decisions allowing me to continue within the rest of my financial plan.  Read:  I might roll all or part the equity into a new home if I sell or take a HELOC but I will not draw down on any other investments nor will I ever again “save up” for a home or down payment.

3). Basically I recognize that my housing choices have both positive and negative opportunity costs within my overall net worth and financial plan.  It are part of said plans overall so it is counted.  OTOH from a “cash flow” perspective it is a cost but not the equity, I it’s expenses are just a “really bad” account fee.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 10, 2021, 09:35:36 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on January 10, 2021, 06:29:55 AM

I am in the camp of totally counting home equity, it comes down to my housing is an integral part of financial plan like any other part of said financial plan.  How that plays out:

1)  In 2017, I choose to take out a modest mortgage instead of paying cash, the value borrowed instead was invested. 

2)  Growing equity in the house will effect future home decisions allowing me to continue within the rest of my financial plan.  Read:  I might roll all or part the equity into a new home if I sell or take a HELOC but I will not draw down on any other investments nor will I ever again “save up” for a home or down payment.

3). Basically I recognize that my housing choices have both positive and negative opportunity costs within my overall net worth and financial plan.  It are part of said plans overall so it is counted.  OTOH from a “cash flow” perspective it is a cost but not the equity, I it’s expenses are just a “really bad” account fee.

I just think more simply NW is NW and shouldn’t really be used to see when you can retire. One needs a household cash flow analysis for that, which your net worth supports. For example if you know you’re going to downsize your house and pocket equity, you would reflect that in the CF analysis.


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on January 10, 2021, 12:25:50 PM

Exactly!  Net Worth and Cash Flow are different animals. 

 We've got a pretty sizable amount of stuff in the safe deposit box at the bank.   That's among the things I don't bother to count.   Someone mentioned a few pages back that as net worth grows, it's easier to leave off big things.  Presumably because the number still makes us smile with or without every little inclusion.   When you're climbing the mountain, it's comforting to know to know that you COULD sell that second car or precious metal stash, if you had to.   Or that if you include them in your count, you can hit a NW milestone of xxx or XXX.   Now that we're all in this thread, lots of stuff can be dropped off.   We probably have $2-300K in easily sellable crap/mattress money/vintage cars/etc that doesn't get counted.  10 years ago, everything was in the NW tally.  Now, not so much. 

 It's all about finding a balance now--  the enjoyment of a happy, work free, stress free life.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 10, 2021, 04:57:38 PM

Can I include my Peloton in my NW :-)

Sometimes I need a reality check of how far I’ve come from nothing to now. So yesterday I bought a keno lottery ticket (guilty pleasure, and besides, haven’t vacationed) and yesterday we won 2k. I remember winning 1k in vegas 20 years ago and my head exploded. Yesterday I had no reaction except to say “well, now I gotta find time to go to the regional office and redeem it”. Hubby said asked what am I going to do with it and I just said throw in the joint account and it’ll pay the next mortgage payment”.


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on January 10, 2021, 05:46:06 PM

That’s fantastic. Congratulations!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 05:57:04 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 10, 2021, 04:57:38 PM

Can I include my Peloton in my NW :-)

Sometimes I need a reality check of how far I’ve come from nothing to now. So yesterday I bought a keno lottery ticket (guilty pleasure, and besides, haven’t vacationed) and yesterday we won 2k. I remember winning 1k in vegas 20 years ago and my head exploded. Yesterday I had no reaction except to say “well, now I gotta find time to go to the regional office and redeem it”. Hubby said asked what am I going to do with it and I just said throw in the joint account and it’ll pay the next mortgage payment”.


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Uh, can you put it toward your $250/month Peloton subscription?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on January 11, 2021, 06:34:00 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 05:57:04 AM

Uh, can you put it toward your $250/month Peloton subscription?

Is Peloton really $250 a month?  I have no idea.  If I want to ride a bike, I go get the Cannondale out of the shed and hit the trails.


A word on the $2MM calculation.  In the very first post of this thread it's defined.  It comes down to investments that can be sold any day the market is open and you would have the funds available once trades are settled.  In the $50k, $100k, $500k threads, including home equity and car equity and that 92 Fender Strat makes some sense because it makes people feel good that their net worth is at a certain level.  At $2MM, it's not including these things because now we're looking at what do we have that can be used to cash flow retirement.  I suppose if you've got an RV in the driveway that you intend to live in when you retire and immediately sell the house, then it could make sense.  For me, my $650 fully paid house and 4 paid off cars are not counted and really shouldn't be relied on to cash flow.

Nothing is enforced here.  If you decide to include your priceless 1 of 2 beanie babies, go for it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 11, 2021, 06:36:17 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 05:57:04 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 10, 2021, 04:57:38 PM

Can I include my Peloton in my NW :-)

Sometimes I need a reality check of how far I’ve come from nothing to now. So yesterday I bought a keno lottery ticket (guilty pleasure, and besides, haven’t vacationed) and yesterday we won 2k. I remember winning 1k in vegas 20 years ago and my head exploded. Yesterday I had no reaction except to say “well, now I gotta find time to go to the regional office and redeem it”. Hubby said asked what am I going to do with it and I just said throw in the joint account and it’ll pay the next mortgage payment”.


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Uh, can you put it toward your $250/month Peloton subscription?

It’s like $45 a month. And they have all kinds of classes, not just biking.


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 11, 2021, 06:37:54 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 11, 2021, 06:34:00 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 05:57:04 AM

Uh, can you put it toward your $250/month Peloton subscription?

Is Peloton really $250 a month?  I have no idea.  If I want to ride a bike, I go get the Cannondale out of the shed and hit the trails.


A word on the $2MM calculation.  In the very first post of this thread it's defined.  It comes down to investments that can be sold any day the market is open and you would have the funds available once trades are settled.  In the $50k, $100k, $500k threads, including home equity and car equity and that 92 Fender Strat makes some sense because it makes people feel good that their net worth is at a certain level.  At $2MM, it's not including these things because now we're looking at what do we have that can be used to cash flow retirement.  I suppose if you've got an RV in the driveway that you intend to live in when you retire and immediately sell the house, then it could make sense.  For me, my $650 fully paid house and 4 paid off cars are not counted and really shouldn't be relied on to cash flow.

Nothing is enforced here.  If you decide to include your priceless 1 of 2 beanie babies, go for it.

I sold my house the same day it was put on the market in NY last year :-p


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 07:04:22 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 11, 2021, 06:36:17 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 05:57:04 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 10, 2021, 04:57:38 PM

Can I include my Peloton in my NW :-)

Sometimes I need a reality check of how far I’ve come from nothing to now. So yesterday I bought a keno lottery ticket (guilty pleasure, and besides, haven’t vacationed) and yesterday we won 2k. I remember winning 1k in vegas 20 years ago and my head exploded. Yesterday I had no reaction except to say “well, now I gotta find time to go to the regional office and redeem it”. Hubby said asked what am I going to do with it and I just said throw in the joint account and it’ll pay the next mortgage payment”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Uh, can you put it toward your $250/month Peloton subscription?

It’s like $45 a month. And they have all kinds of classes, not just biking.


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My friend just bought one for her husband after he crashed on his bike and broke his pelvis (On a newly paved road, he hit an unmarked speed bump at speed, just as he was reaching for his water bottle - argh! ). The Peloton was $1800 and the monthly subscription is $250. Perhaps there are different levels? They can totally afford it, but I damn near died when she told me the numbers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on January 11, 2021, 07:14:32 AM

Sounds like she financed part of the bike? The membership is $40/month for unlimited, several triathlon teammates have it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 07:47:04 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 11, 2021, 06:34:00 AM

A word on the $2MM calculation. In the very first post of this thread it's defined.  It comes down to investments that can be sold any day the market is open and you would have the funds available once trades are settled.  In the $50k, $100k, $500k threads, including home equity and car equity and that 92 Fender Strat makes some sense because it makes people feel good that their net worth is at a certain level.  At $2MM, it's not including these things because now we're looking at what do we have that can be used to cash flow retirement.  I suppose if you've got an RV in the driveway that you intend to live in when you retire and immediately sell the house, then it could make sense.  For me, my $650 fully paid house and 4 paid off cars are not counted and really shouldn't be relied on to cash flow.

Nothing is enforced here.  If you decide to include your priceless 1 of 2 beanie babies, go for it.

Your comment cracked me up. We also have four paid-for vehicles sitting in the huge driveway of our paid-for $1.65M house. One of them is a very expensive RV, which we bought lightly used, of course. We have three nice single family home rental properties in a resort area. Since we plan to move into one of them at some point, I absolutely do count the value of our primary home. We "only" have about $1.5M in equities, but DH has a very generous Defined Benefit Pension coming, which will certainly help cash flow our retirement. We also flip and BRRR houses occasionally, so we have a LOT of dry powder in a separate account that's completely liquid. That cash alone is at least 5x our projected annual retirement spend.

I don't count the value of any of the vehicles or the contents of the house. I don't even count the income or equity from the rentals for the purpose of this thread. But once SS kicks in, we will not need to tap into our equities at all for living expenses, so we are solidly in this cohort. Our MPP is going to be what the hell to do with our eventual RMD's.

I agree there is room for some flexibility in the calculation, which is why I don't think people should drop back to previous cohorts every time the market experiences a pullback. The more, the merrier, I say!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 07:50:07 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on January 11, 2021, 07:14:32 AM

Sounds like she financed part of the bike? The membership is $40/month for unlimited, several triathlon teammates have it.

No financing. I wonder if there's a personal trainer package of some sort. She's my walking partner, so I'll ask her for more details today and report back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on January 11, 2021, 10:12:21 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 11, 2021, 06:34:00 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 05:57:04 AM

Uh, can you put it toward your $250/month Peloton subscription?

Is Peloton really $250 a month?  I have no idea.  If I want to ride a bike, I go get the Cannondale out of the shed and hit the trails.


A word on the $2MM calculation.  In the very first post of this thread it's defined.  It comes down to investments that can be sold any day the market is open and you would have the funds available once trades are settled.  In the $50k, $100k, $500k threads, including home equity and car equity and that 92 Fender Strat makes some sense because it makes people feel good that their net worth is at a certain level.  At $2MM, it's not including these things because now we're looking at what do we have that can be used to cash flow retirement.  I suppose if you've got an RV in the driveway that you intend to live in when you retire and immediately sell the house, then it could make sense.  For me, my $650 fully paid house and 4 paid off cars are not counted and really shouldn't be relied on to cash flow.

Nothing is enforced here.  If you decide to include your priceless 1 of 2 beanie babies, go for it.

Seriously Car Jack. Let it go.

 I have more than 10 rental houses and they can be sold anytime I want to sell them.  Yes, it takes longer than a few moments hitting the "trade" button on Vanguard but they are liquid and sellable none the less. 
 Cash flow, yes sir.  It's called Rental Income.  Overall the Rental Income exceeds 10% of my cash investment yearly, some are topping 14% ROI.  That's before I count equity.

Here's an example of 1 rental, if I sold it today- The market is very hot.  I'd probably have a check in hand within 60 days or less.




Rental Property Calculator
Result
For the 8 Years Invested
Return (IRR):   19.72% per year
Total Profit when Sold:   $381,947.56
Cash on Cash Return:   231.48%
Capitalization Rate:   10.51%
Total Rental Income:   $182,470.74
Total Expenses:   $31,123.18
Total Net Operating Income:   $151,347.56
     
First Year Income and Expense
    Monthly   Annual
Income:   $1,800.00   $21,600.00
Vacancy (5%):   $90.00   $1,080.00
Property Tax:   $125.00   $1,500.00
Total Insurance:   $66.67   $800.00
Maintenance Cost:   $83.33   $1,000.00
Other Cost:   $16.67   $200.00
Cash Flow:   $1,418.33   $17,020.00
Net Operating Income (NOI):   $1,418.33   $17,020.00

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 12:45:41 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on January 11, 2021, 10:12:21 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 11, 2021, 06:34:00 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 05:57:04 AM

Uh, can you put it toward your $250/month Peloton subscription?

Is Peloton really $250 a month?  I have no idea.  If I want to ride a bike, I go get the Cannondale out of the shed and hit the trails.


A word on the $2MM calculation.  In the very first post of this thread it's defined.  It comes down to investments that can be sold any day the market is open and you would have the funds available once trades are settled.  In the $50k, $100k, $500k threads, including home equity and car equity and that 92 Fender Strat makes some sense because it makes people feel good that their net worth is at a certain level.  At $2MM, it's not including these things because now we're looking at what do we have that can be used to cash flow retirement.  I suppose if you've got an RV in the driveway that you intend to live in when you retire and immediately sell the house, then it could make sense.  For me, my $650 fully paid house and 4 paid off cars are not counted and really shouldn't be relied on to cash flow.

Nothing is enforced here.  If you decide to include your priceless 1 of 2 beanie babies, go for it.

Seriously Car Jack. Let it go.

 I have more than 10 rental houses and they can be sold anytime I want to sell them.  Yes, it takes longer than a few moments hitting the "trade" button on Vanguard but they are liquid and sellable none the less. 
 Cash flow, yes sir.  It's called Rental Income.  Overall the Rental Income exceeds 10% of my cash investment yearly, some are topping 14% ROI.  That's before I count equity.

Here's an example of 1 rental, if I sold it today- The market is very hot.  I'd probably have a check in hand within 60 days or less.


Rental Property Calculator
Result
For the 8 Years Invested
Return (IRR):   19.72% per year
Total Profit when Sold:   $381,947.56
Cash on Cash Return:   231.48%
Capitalization Rate:   10.51%
Total Rental Income:   $182,470.74
Total Expenses:   $31,123.18
Total Net Operating Income:   $151,347.56
     
First Year Income and Expense
    Monthly   Annual
Income:   $1,800.00   $21,600.00
Vacancy (5%):   $90.00   $1,080.00
Property Tax:   $125.00   $1,500.00
Total Insurance:   $66.67   $800.00
Maintenance Cost:   $83.33   $1,000.00
Other Cost:   $16.67   $200.00
Cash Flow:   $1,418.33   $17,020.00
Net Operating Income (NOI):   $1,418.33   $17,020.00

The bolded to @Car Jack sounds too harsh to my ear. I thought his explanation was fine. Seemed like he was just being helpful and answering someone else's question. I responded to offer another example. Yours is a good one, too, @JoJoP.

We all have it made financially if we're on this thread. We can afford to be understanding of one another.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on January 11, 2021, 01:53:14 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 12:45:41 PM

The bolded to @Car Jack sounds too harsh to my ear. I thought his explanation was fine. Seemed like he was just being helpful and answering someone else's question.

Agreed.  I wondered if maybe there was some festering disagreement on this issue between the two further up thread.

For my part, I prefer to count only investment and savings accounts for eligibility to be in this race.  But it's no skin off my back if someone else counts RE or other traditionally illiquid investments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 11, 2021, 02:34:55 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 07:04:22 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 11, 2021, 06:36:17 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 05:57:04 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 10, 2021, 04:57:38 PM

Can I include my Peloton in my NW :-)

Sometimes I need a reality check of how far I’ve come from nothing to now. So yesterday I bought a keno lottery ticket (guilty pleasure, and besides, haven’t vacationed) and yesterday we won 2k. I remember winning 1k in vegas 20 years ago and my head exploded. Yesterday I had no reaction except to say “well, now I gotta find time to go to the regional office and redeem it”. Hubby said asked what am I going to do with it and I just said throw in the joint account and it’ll pay the next mortgage payment”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Uh, can you put it toward your $250/month Peloton subscription?

It’s like $45 a month. And they have all kinds of classes, not just biking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My friend just bought one for her husband after he crashed on his bike and broke his pelvis (On a newly paved road, he hit an unmarked speed bump at speed, just as he was reaching for his water bottle - argh! ). The Peloton was $1800 and the monthly subscription is $250. Perhaps there are different levels? They can totally afford it, but I damn near died when she told me the numbers.

Yikes!  I'll stick to my AirDyne Pro.   One of the best fitness investments ever ( and no monthly fee ).  I guess I'm not the type that need a class to be motivated.  I do understand some need that though.   It also helps that I have it in my den....and watch a show on the projector screen while I'm using it. :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 11, 2021, 04:17:19 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 11, 2021, 01:53:14 PM

For my part, I prefer to count only investment and savings accounts for eligibility to be in this race.  But it's no skin off my back if someone else counts RE or other traditionally illiquid investments.

Around 2013 we started buying rental properties.  Over the next 4 years we bought and fixed up 4 rentals, with a very long pause in the middle.   Investment costs were around $200,000 including renovation costs.   Those properties are now worth around $380,000 and provide an income of $20,000 a year.   Let's round that down to $350,000 to allow for realtor sale commissions.

If I had taken that $200,000 and put it in index funds, it would have taken about 8-9 years to get to that $350,000.

So, even if it takes 1 to 6 months to sell those properties, I was still able to sell it for $350,000 in my pocket 4-5 years FASTER via real estate than I could have sold my stock for the same amount..   

:)   Think about that for a moment. 

And while you're thinking about that, recognize that my real estate was producing $5,000 per year of partially tax-sheltered income that I did NOT have to re-invest to get to that $350,000 valuation, which incidentally would only produce an income of $14,000 a year, NOT $20,000 a year which is what we're getting.   

Recognize also that I bought at the bottom of the market and that appreciation in value is largely due to the renovations we did, not some hot and crazy real estate market.

So, yeah, I'll consider my real estate investments in this total.

Same with the farmland I inherited that folks sharecrop for us.   The land has a value and it could be sold.   It's good farmland and good farmland only comes on the market every few generations  -- so there's a good chance it would sell reasonably fast.   But since we're buy and hold investors, that farmland acts like bonds that produce income that's uncorrelated to the stock or bond market.   If crops are really bad we won't go out of business unlike a corporation that we might have purchased a bond from.   Our share of the income is about $20,000 a year. 

Those two sets of investments produce an income of $40,000 a year, the equivalent of a $1,000,000 stock portfolio.

We've got another property that we purchased and then resold to help family friends set up a real estate business.   We hold a $94,000 mortgage note on a property.   They don't have to pay us anything for 2 years to help establish them, with no accrued interest in the interim.  After that we'll be getting 5% interest plus principal payments.   Hell, even our real estate charity to friends is making us money.  FYI, they are getting 2.25% a month on that investment, or 27% a year for the first 2 years.    It will drop down to 1.5% a month once the mortgage payments kick in, or 18% a year.   

Yeah, you bet we count those investments in our net worth.

If we had to, we could downsize to one of our rental houses and get the 100% equity out of our home as well.   In the meantime it's saving us money compared to renting an inexpensive house.

The original thread-starting post didn't want to include these items.     I disagree for the reasons above.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on January 11, 2021, 04:57:52 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 11, 2021, 04:17:19 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 11, 2021, 01:53:14 PM

For my part, I prefer to count only investment and savings accounts for eligibility to be in this race.  But it's no skin off my back if someone else counts RE or other traditionally illiquid investments.

Tl;dr pro-RE post.

Lots of ways to skin a cat, but none off my back! ;)

But seriously, in case I wasn't clear, I don't count my own RE (primary residence equity in my case) for the purposes of this thread.  It doesn't bother me in the slightest if others do so.  I'm not anti-RE at all, and I don't think it's a lesser form of asset compared to stocks or anything else.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 10:29:21 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 11, 2021, 07:50:07 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on January 11, 2021, 07:14:32 AM

Sounds like she financed part of the bike? The membership is $40/month for unlimited, several triathlon teammates have it.

No financing. I wonder if there's a personal trainer package of some sort. She's my walking partner, so I'll ask her for more details today and report back.

Something's not adding up. My friend was vague and I looked at the Peloton website. Nothing matches. I'm going to go with "Not my circus, not my monkey." I'm still shocked, but at least I know they can afford it.

Also, damn it, I decided to actually look at our numbers today. Yeah, it's even higher than I reported upthread. It's amazing how it grows!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 12, 2021, 02:43:27 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 11, 2021, 04:17:19 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 11, 2021, 01:53:14 PM

For my part, I prefer to count only investment and savings accounts for eligibility to be in this race.  But it's no skin off my back if someone else counts RE or other traditionally illiquid investments.

Around 2013 we started buying rental properties.  Over the next 4 years we bought and fixed up 4 rentals, with a very long pause in the middle.   Investment costs were around $200,000 including renovation costs.   Those properties are now worth around $380,000 and provide an income of $20,000 a year.   Let's round that down to $350,000 to allow for realtor sale commissions.

If I had taken that $200,000 and put it in index funds, it would have taken about 8-9 years to get to that $350,000.

So, even if it takes 1 to 6 months to sell those properties, I was still able to sell it for $350,000 in my pocket 4-5 years FASTER via real estate than I could have sold my stock for the same amount..   

:)   Think about that for a moment. 

And while you're thinking about that, recognize that my real estate was producing $5,000 per year of partially tax-sheltered income that I did NOT have to re-invest to get to that $350,000 valuation, which incidentally would only produce an income of $14,000 a year, NOT $20,000 a year which is what we're getting.   

Recognize also that I bought at the bottom of the market and that appreciation in value is largely due to the renovations we did, not some hot and crazy real estate market.

So, yeah, I'll consider my real estate investments in this total.

Same with the farmland I inherited that folks sharecrop for us.   The land has a value and it could be sold.   It's good farmland and good farmland only comes on the market every few generations  -- so there's a good chance it would sell reasonably fast.   But since we're buy and hold investors, that farmland acts like bonds that produce income that's uncorrelated to the stock or bond market.   If crops are really bad we won't go out of business unlike a corporation that we might have purchased a bond from.   Our share of the income is about $20,000 a year. 

Those two sets of investments produce an income of $40,000 a year, the equivalent of a $1,000,000 stock portfolio.

We've got another property that we purchased and then resold to help family friends set up a real estate business.   We hold a $94,000 mortgage note on a property.   They don't have to pay us anything for 2 years to help establish them, with no accrued interest in the interim.  After that we'll be getting 5% interest plus principal payments.   Hell, even our real estate charity to friends is making us money.  FYI, they are getting 2.25% a month on that investment, or 27% a year for the first 2 years.    It will drop down to 1.5% a month once the mortgage payments kick in, or 18% a year.   

Yeah, you bet we count those investments in our net worth.

If we had to, we could downsize to one of our rental houses and get the 100% equity out of our home as well.   In the meantime it's saving us money compared to renting an inexpensive house.

The original thread-starting post didn't want to include these items.     I disagree for the reasons above.

If anything I think you make a strong case of why you should count RE as there are two different types and even then you can make an argument to include both. Your RE your including and Land is producing Income so that is an investment.

As far as personal property. While I don't include it on paper/or this thread , Owning outright an 800k home I know against the argument "Well you gotta live somewhere" I easily could buy a nice house or condo and live in luxury for 3-400k so easily could add 400k to my numbers. So my point is how you as posters look at it and can make it Liquid as @SwordGuy made the case is rightfully so part of your net-worth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 12, 2021, 03:22:08 AM

I am genuinely impressed by how effective real estate investing has been for @JoJoP and @SwordGuy . The only thing that has held me back from real estate is that it actually requires diligence and some actual labor to make it work - and I'm lazy :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 12, 2021, 06:32:51 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 12, 2021, 03:22:08 AM

I am genuinely impressed by how effective real estate investing has been for @JoJoP and @SwordGuy . The only thing that has held me back from real estate is that it actually requires diligence and some actual labor to make it work - and I'm lazy :-)

There have been a LOT of VERY SMART people in real estate investing and a number of them have taught what they learned.
There are a lot of different strategies for making money.

We chose a labor intensive one because we had most of the skills we needed, the price of properties in our area is low, and at the time we bought most of them it was extremely low.   It enabled us to own properties outright and get the full cash flow from them pronto but it meant many a weekend working on those properties.

@arebelspy on this forum chose a different path.   They bought mostly rent-ready properties and hired out all the necessary work.  It enabled them to invest all over the country wherever they found a great deal.  They purchased more expensive properties with down payments and let their tenants pay down the mortgage.   Much less work on their part.   It takes more properties to produce the necessary cash flow for FIRE, but as the mortgages get paid off their cash flow goes up big time.

The safest thing to assume about real estate investing, if you haven't studied it, is that you don't know what's possible and what you do know is actually limiting the possibilities you actually have.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on January 12, 2021, 08:21:24 AM

Oh,  sorry if my one liner to Car Jack seemed harsh to him or others.  My apologies.  I sincerely did not mean to offend. 

 Believe me, it stems from sheer excitement about Real Estate.  We have always liked real estate and it's a very traditional way to build wealth in this country.  Including or not including the primary dwelling for this thread is up to the poster, but RE has made many people wealthy.  Many moms and pops have enjoyed a better life when they downsize or perhaps kept their starter home as a rental when they moved up.   Our NW exploded since going seriously into rental houses, beyond anything I could have imagined. I know I'm an outlier on this particular forum when I say this:  We can't justify putting money in the stock market because the returns seem low compared to rentals.  When we have extra liquidity, we buy another house.  This is actually normal behavior in some circles!

@Sword Guy said this:
Around 2013 we started buying rental properties.  Over the next 4 years we bought and fixed up 4 rentals, with a very long pause in the middle.   Investment costs were around $200,000 including renovation costs.   Those properties are now worth around $380,000 and provide an income of $20,000 a year.   Let's round that down to $350,000 to allow for realtor sale commissions.

If I had taken that $200,000 and put it in index funds, it would have taken about 8-9 years to get to that $350,000.


The property that I used in my example upthread was also bought roughly in 2013, and is similar to his excellent math.  Ours would net us about $430K,  but our rent return is higher in this HCOL area.   I'm not clear if Sword Guy's 20K a year is combined or individual for his 4 rental homes.  But, either way, his numbers are sweet and comments are on target.  There are tremendous possibilities with Real Estate and it might be worth looking into if you're trying to fast track your wealth.

 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 12, 2021, 11:09:53 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on January 12, 2021, 08:21:24 AM

Sword Guy said this:
Around 2013 we started buying rental properties.  Over the next 4 years we bought and fixed up 4 rentals, with a very long pause in the middle.   Investment costs were around $200,000 including renovation costs.   Those properties are now worth around $380,000 and provide an income of $20,000 a year.   Let's round that down to $350,000 to allow for realtor sale commissions.

If I had taken that $200,000 and put it in index funds, it would have taken about 8-9 years to get to that $350,000.


The property that I used in my example upthread was also bought roughly in 2013, and is similar to his excellent math.  Ours would net us about $430K,  but our rent return is higher in this HCOL area.   I'm not clear if Sword Guy's 20K a year is combined or individual for his 4 rental homes.  But, either way, his numbers are sweet and comments are on target.  There are tremendous possibilities with Real Estate and it might be worth looking into if you're trying to fast track your wealth.

$20K profit per year in total.  I think of them as replacing a chunk of a bond portfolio.  They provide steady income at 10% of our investment without crazy ups and downs (because we set aside money for repairs and vacancy costs).     Not only that, but their resale value after commissions would be around $350k, which is a 75% increase in resale value over cost.

If I could get that kind of return in bond funds I would have upped the size of my bond portfolio even if I did have to work some weekends for a few years to get those returns.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 12, 2021, 11:49:53 AM

RE is an interesting approach.

I am not an RE investor but I do have two rental "properties" that provide about $20k/yr after costs. These are throwaway buildings, one is a trailer and the other a 1950's cabin that might just get hit with my tractor when the current tenant moves out.

The interesting part to me is that.. Just a little bit of income means a whole lot less is required in net worth. I.e $20k is a minimum of $500k if one had to generate that from the stock market. Similar to a pension of course.

What puts me off of being an RE type is that honestly, the less stuff I own I find the happier I am.... Not including the shit-ton of $$ of course. So the idea of owning multiple properties with the subsequent liabilities would keep me up at night, even though of course the risk can be mitigated with Umbrella insurance/LLC etc.

Certainly seems to be a great way to invest though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 12, 2021, 01:56:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 12, 2021, 11:49:53 AM

RE is an interesting approach.

I am not an RE investor but I do have two rental "properties" that provide about $20k/yr after costs. These are throwaway buildings, one is a trailer and the other a 1950's cabin that might just get hit with my tractor when the current tenant moves out.

The interesting part to me is that.. Just a little bit of income means a whole lot less is required in net worth. I.e $20k is a minimum of $500k if one had to generate that from the stock market. Similar to a pension of course.

What puts me off of being an RE type is that honestly, the less stuff I own I find the happier I am.... Not including the shit-ton of $$ of course. So the idea of owning multiple properties with the subsequent liabilities would keep me up at night, even though of course the risk can be mitigated with Umbrella insurance/LLC etc.

Certainly seems to be a great way to invest though.

I tried for years to do it in my area but just never could find anything that made sense. I ended up flipping a couple because it was with a friend and it made more sense. I entertained the idea of perhaps going out of state to do it but like you , even though you could hire a managing company I just felt it would stress the hell out of me. But the pockets like Swordguy are in obviously it can really work. Houses like that are 2-350 easily where I live so you cant get the rents to justify it and thats a lot of coin to have out. One could go into the city but that is risky at a whole new level I would rather pass on. I know alot of people making money at it but guess I have learned its not for me at this point. I do find it intriguing though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on January 13, 2021, 07:26:11 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on January 11, 2021, 10:12:21 AM

Seriously Car Jack. Let it go.

Like I said, there are no forum police looking to document claims of liquid net worth.

I periodically point out the first post, where I clearly (I think) defined what I considered to be the liquid investments we'd talk about.  The most common addition for net worth is a residence.  For most people, that doesn't become a revenue source until someone is going into assisted living or the like.  What's my house (your house) worth?  We can only estimate until it is actually sold.

If you want to include other stuff, I'm not going to stop you. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on January 13, 2021, 08:14:55 AM

Quote from: Wile E. Coyote on January 09, 2021, 06:06:23 PM

Not sure if I should be in this thread or not, but here I am.:)

I added up my taxable and retirement accounts, Daughter's 529, and two rental properties today and just squeaked over $2M ($2,000,888 to be precise).  Not sure it will last, but I did want to at least mark the milestone.  People seem to be using only LNW, which I guess would exclude the 529 and rental properties?  I haven't included any equity in my company as that is too speculative at this point.  I doubt that I will ever get to $4M, but I suppose stretch goals never hurt anyone. :-D

Congratulations Wile! 
The only reason I don't count my home equity is because I live here and I don't want to HAVE to sell my home in order to FIRE.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 13, 2021, 08:34:40 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 13, 2021, 07:26:11 AM

What's my house (your house) worth?  We can only estimate until it is actually sold.

Funny thing.   I can only estimate what my index funds are worth.  I find out what they were worth the AFTER I sell them.   At least with my real estate, I know what the exact price will be 3 days before closing date -- by law.  :)

Just for perspective. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on January 13, 2021, 08:40:49 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 09, 2021, 12:40:23 PM

As of close of the markets yesterday, we joined this race for the first time with an aggregate balance of $2.005M across all our savings/retirement/investment accounts.  TNW including home equity is somewhere a little north of $2.4M.

Congratulations, and welcome!

Quote from: Bird In Hand

Congratulations, and welcome!

Thank you!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 13, 2021, 09:06:34 AM

We count our house, as we don't plan to live in an area as expensive as this post kids out of the house. To be more accurate, I should probably only account for the gap between what would be left after we sell this house, and buy another. I like that approach.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 14, 2021, 08:02:19 AM

Just curious as to if the members of this group have umbrella insurance, how much, costs, and why did you get it/not get it? I'm just trying to figure out what to do with mine right now as I reevaluate expenses and risk heading into RE.

I have a $3M policy, which is close to my LNW.  So I do have around the rule of thumb of making it equal to your NW, though I realize this is a somewhat arbitrary amount to use (potential liability judgements seem somewhat arbitrary and potentially infinite....I could always get a judgement against me for $6M, at which point I've lost everything even with the insurance, or $1M, at which point I would feel like I maybe overpaid for $3M).

I guess vehicle accident lawsuits are at the forefront of my mind (esp with teen drivers).  It seemed relatively inexpensive (was around $30/mth I think for the $3M) but then a little more than doubled once my first teen started driving, and I have a second teen that will be starting before long.  I do have a rental property which I guess is the other area I see as creating potential liability claims, but thats under an LLC so I assume any risk there is limited to the LLC itself (basically the rental prop itself and the LLC checking acct set up for that), so I'm sure its not covered under the umbrella nor does it need to be.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 14, 2021, 08:36:08 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on January 14, 2021, 08:02:19 AM

Just curious as to if the members of this group have umbrella insurance, how much, costs, and why did you get it/not get it? I'm just trying to figure out what to do with mine right now as I reevaluate expenses and risk heading into RE.

I have a $3M policy, which is close to my LNW.  So I do have around the rule of thumb of making it equal to your NW, though I realize this is a somewhat arbitrary amount to use (potential liability judgements seem somewhat arbitrary and potentially infinite....I could always get a judgement against me for $6M, at which point I've lost everything even with the insurance, or $1M, at which point I would feel like I maybe overpaid for $3M).

I guess vehicle accident lawsuits are at the forefront of my mind (esp with teen drivers).  It seemed relatively inexpensive (was around $30/mth I think for the $3M) but then a little more than doubled once my first teen started driving, and I have a second teen that will be starting before long.  I do have a rental property which I guess is the other area I see as creating potential liability claims, but thats under an LLC so I assume any risk there is limited to the LLC itself (basically the rental prop itself and the LLC checking acct set up for that), so I'm sure its not covered under the umbrella nor does it need to be.

I also have an umbrella policy too for a similar amount. As in your case, it has become quite expensive after my younger daughter has started to drive. We have had this policy for a long time but have increased the coverage amount in recent years as our net worth has grown.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SuperSecretName on January 14, 2021, 09:19:12 AM

A 6mil policy isn't going to provide you better defense than a 3 mil policy.  Part of getting the umbrella is so the company vigorously defends you.  You have that protection.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on January 14, 2021, 09:24:22 AM

Trusts can protect your assets from liability also. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 14, 2021, 09:45:29 AM

Quote from: SuperSecretName on January 14, 2021, 09:19:12 AM

A 6mil policy isn't going to provide you better defense than a 3 mil policy.  Part of getting the umbrella is so the company vigorously defends you.  You have that protection.

Yeah, this is why I would consider dropping it to $1M, I assume the same argument would apply.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 14, 2021, 11:05:28 AM

So the reason your umbrella policy increased was because you have teen drivers?

What if you don't carry your teens on your car insurance? I mean my parents wouldn't dream of carrying me, nor could they afford it.

A little bit of hedonistic adaption as we all got wealthier maybe?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 14, 2021, 01:36:05 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 14, 2021, 11:05:28 AM

So the reason your umbrella policy increased was because you have teen drivers?

What if you don't carry your teens on your car insurance? I mean my parents wouldn't dream of carrying me, nor could they afford it.

A little bit of hedonistic adaption as we all got wealthier maybe?

True but it's very useful to have more licensed drivers in the household. I just dispatched my 17 year old to the supermarket to buy a few things for example :-) And its just for a matter of a few years in any case (hopefully).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 14, 2021, 02:43:40 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 14, 2021, 11:05:28 AM

So the reason your umbrella policy increased was because you have teen drivers?

What if you don't carry your teens on your car insurance? I mean my parents wouldn't dream of carrying me, nor could they afford it.

A little bit of hedonistic adaption as we all got wealthier maybe?

Sorry, I guess I don't understand the joke and/or facepunch, whichever this is.  I should have my high schoolers carry their own insurance?  And if they do and get in an accident the parties can't go after me?  Or do you mean I shouldn't allow them  to drive?  I guess maybe I shouldn't, but frankly one of the great things of the kids getting older is them driving themselves places.

I mean, I happily pay for their sports team dues as well.  And after my net worth rose above $2M I even bought myself a new car.  So yes, I guess I did succumb to "hedonistic adaption" as I got wealthier.  But continuing to spend $40k/year when I'm worth $4M I guess I just don't understand.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 14, 2021, 04:28:10 PM

I have an umbrella policy.  I ignore the rule of thumb and got the policy amount based on my level of risk (average to below average) and the size of actual court awards in my state.

As for Exflyboy's comments, I'll let him answer for himself, but my interpretation of them is that it is a luxury for parents to pay for their teen's auto insurance and that teens should pay their auto insurance premiums so that they understand the true cost of driving and the attendant risks of speeding / DUI and the benefits of good grades.  I think it's a personal decision as to who pays for what when, but I think we all agree that insuring teen drivers is pretty expensive.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 14, 2021, 08:16:18 PM

I have a $5million dollar umbrella policy, mainly because Michigan’s no fault laws make it dirt cheap.  The insurance person stated Ivan never seen the price this low.  (Less than $300/year) I can’t remember the $1million price but I don’t think it was significantly cheaper.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 15, 2021, 02:38:10 AM

I just had this conversation with my agent the other day because I sold my 21 year old the car he was using. If he didnt stay on my insurance he would pay about 35% more BUT we just figured his cost and he has to pay that with his car payment now to me every month. Plus they indicated all kids if living at home have to be on your insurance plan. I found that odd.  My concern having 3 kids soon to be 4 on my Insurance is all the risk and currently have a 1 Million dollar umbrella and when I asked if that was enough they made it sound like it was. All my kids even the 21 year old unless they have a 3.8 or above GPA then they had to work jobs in HS and pay for car insurance. We get the student discount at 3.0 so if there not above that then they dont drive period. That hasnt been an issue.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 15, 2021, 02:55:57 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on January 14, 2021, 02:43:40 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 14, 2021, 11:05:28 AM

So the reason your umbrella policy increased was because you have teen drivers?

What if you don't carry your teens on your car insurance? I mean my parents wouldn't dream of carrying me, nor could they afford it.

A little bit of hedonistic adaption as we all got wealthier maybe?

Sorry, I guess I don't understand the joke and/or facepunch, whichever this is.  I should have my high schoolers carry their own insurance?  And if they do and get in an accident the parties can't go after me?  Or do you mean I shouldn't allow them  to drive?  I guess maybe I shouldn't, but frankly one of the great things of the kids getting older is them driving themselves places.

I mean, I happily pay for their sports team dues as well.  And after my net worth rose above $2M I even bought myself a new car.  So yes, I guess I did succumb to "hedonistic adaption" as I got wealthier.  But continuing to spend $40k/year when I'm worth $4M I guess I just don't understand.

Just a bit of wry English humor from @Exflyboy :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 08:39:42 AM

Question to put out to the group about retirement accounts. . .

I'm about to hit $1M in my retirement account, and my husband is in a similar place with this retirement account. I'm 45 & my husband is 54.

We plan to continue to work (me, for another 2 years is the plan, & my husband has no plans to retire because he greatly enjoys his job.) I'm guessing we should continue to max our tax advantaged retirement accounts regardless of how much the balance is, because it reduces our taxable income. I've also been using a backdoor Roth (offered by my company) to save more. Should I stop & just start investing in non-retirement accounts? Do I have "too much" in my retirement account? Any recommended reading on investment strategies once you have a significant amount in your 401ks?

We have no plans to tap our retirement accounts until my husband hits 60 (at the earliest) & will have a paid off house when he retires.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on January 15, 2021, 09:08:13 AM

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/11/11/how-much-is-too-much-in-your-401k/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/11/11/how-much-is-too-much-in-your-401k/)

MMM has some opinions on this. :-)

Once your DH is the solo earner, I'd see what your tax brackets are vs. where your tax brackets are going to be in retirement. That will decide on whether you want to do 401(k)s.  If there's any match, I'd at least contribute up to the match, as that's free money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 09:13:59 AM

Thanks, @couponvan . That's useful. I'll check out what MMM has to say.

Our company does offer a generous amount, and in our current tax bracket, any advantages are ones we will leverage, so planning to continue the full contribution. (I maxed my 2021 amount today anyway, as we receive our annual bonus.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on January 15, 2021, 09:21:45 AM

The real estate folks here are missing out on the "fun" of watching the market correction this morning.  I'm down $165K and it's not even lunchtime yet.  ;)   Maybe I should read up on real estate!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 15, 2021, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 15, 2021, 09:21:45 AM

The real estate folks here are missing out on the "fun" of watching the market correction this morning.  I'm down $165K and it's not even lunchtime yet.  ;)   Maybe I should read up on real estate!!

Ooh, you mean it's a good day to go on a stock shopping spree? Yippee!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 15, 2021, 10:13:09 AM

Quote from: couponvan on January 15, 2021, 09:08:13 AM

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/11/11/how-much-is-too-much-in-your-401k/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/11/11/how-much-is-too-much-in-your-401k/)

MMM has some opinions on this. :-)

Once your DH is the solo earner, I'd see what your tax brackets are vs. where your tax brackets are going to be in retirement. That will decide on whether you want to do 401(k)s.  If there's any match, I'd at least contribute up to the match, as that's free money.

Another important question is how much you have in taxable investments. That's a key part of retiring early. The best thing about taxable accounts is their flexibility. You can use it (or not) when ever and how ever you want. 

The benefit tax deferred accounts is it puts more soldiers in the field faster, thus increasing their effectiveness. Once you have an army the size you do, that boost is less important. They're going to keep working on your behalf, even as you shift money into Roths or other taxables.

I agree with coup. Get the match, then look at other investment options that give you more control. Also, when youre not locked into your employer's plan, you will have more choices and more control over the fees you pay, which can really add up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 11:17:49 AM

Thanks, @Dicey . We don't have a ton in our taxable investments ($400k), but we are planning to move somewhere less expensive & will be leveraging equity in our existing house (expect to have ~$2M left over after we buy another house, but pre closing costs, etc.)

I agree with the larger point. I'm going to continue to the full 401k amount, but dial back the backdoor Roth contributions & funnel that to taxable investments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on January 15, 2021, 12:29:43 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 08:39:42 AM

Question to put out to the group about retirement accounts. . Snip.....
I'm about to hit $1M in my retirement account, and my husband is in a similar place with this retirement account. I'm 45 & my husband is 54....Snip...
Should I stop & just start investing in non-retirement accounts? Do I have "too much" in my retirement account? ....Snip....

As a reminder, "taxable" does not necessarily mean taxed. 
As you only have to pay taxes on gains and distributions on stock-like stuff, for a 20year early retirement, the gains will be a fraction of your withdrawal.
Further long-term (>1 year) and qualified dividends are taxed at 0% up to $80,000.*
https://www.gocurrycracker.com/never-pay-taxes-again/ mentioned this.      I wish that I had realized this earlier.   
But I concur with others that you should contribute at least to the match in you 401(k). 
How much of your cashflow is split between 401(k) and taxable is your call and may depend on your desire to minimize your current taxable income for various reasons (taxes?).

*See the Qualified Dividends and Capital Gain Tax Worksheet—Line 16 on page 35 of the 2020 Instructions for Form 1040.   Line 9 (amount taxed at 0%) is sometimes a jaw-dropping number.
   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on January 15, 2021, 12:31:42 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 11:17:49 AM

Thanks, @Dicey . We don't have a ton in our taxable investments ($400k), but we are planning to move somewhere less expensive & will be leveraging equity in our existing house (expect to have ~$2M left over after we buy another house, but pre closing costs, etc.)

I agree with the larger point. I'm going to continue to the full 401k amount, but dial back the backdoor Roth contributions & funnel that to taxable investments.

Why? While it is important for most people to have some amount in taxable, why do you plan to prioritize taxable over Roth at this time?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 12:53:36 PM

@ixtap - my understanding was that it gave me more flexibility on how/when I access that money in the future. Sounds like I have more research to do!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on January 15, 2021, 02:33:08 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 15, 2021, 10:03:47 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 15, 2021, 09:21:45 AM

The real estate folks here are missing out on the "fun" of watching the market correction this morning.  I'm down $165K and it's not even lunchtime yet.  ;)   Maybe I should read up on real estate!!

Ooh, you mean it's a good day to go on a stock shopping spree? Yippee!

I must have blinked and missed the correction, but I do see that the major indexes are down about .75% today.  YAY, it feels like the majority of the time the indexes are up on my pay days, so I always cheer a bit when they're down.  Buying my retirement funds at a slight discount makes me very happy!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 15, 2021, 04:06:06 PM

Quote from: ixtap on January 15, 2021, 12:31:42 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 11:17:49 AM

Thanks, @Dicey . We don't have a ton in our taxable investments ($400k), but we are planning to move somewhere less expensive & will be leveraging equity in our existing house (expect to have ~$2M left over after we buy another house, but pre closing costs, etc.)

I agree with the larger point. I'm going to continue to the full 401k amount, but dial back the backdoor Roth contributions & funnel that to taxable investments.

Why? While it is important for most people to have some amount in taxable, why do you plan to prioritize taxable over Roth at this time?

I will answer the first two questions. @MaybeBabyMustache can answer the third one. I didn't say it was important for "most" people. However, if your 401k is fat enough, taxable investments may present more and possibly better options. If you plan to retire before 59.5, it's easier money to access. You also have more investment/low fee options in the open market than most employer plans. In a word: control.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on January 15, 2021, 04:12:02 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 15, 2021, 04:06:06 PM

Quote from: ixtap on January 15, 2021, 12:31:42 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 11:17:49 AM

Thanks, @Dicey . We don't have a ton in our taxable investments ($400k), but we are planning to move somewhere less expensive & will be leveraging equity in our existing house (expect to have ~$2M left over after we buy another house, but pre closing costs, etc.)

I agree with the larger point. I'm going to continue to the full 401k amount, but dial back the backdoor Roth contributions & funnel that to taxable investments.

Why? While it is important for most people to have some amount in taxable, why do you plan to prioritize taxable over Roth at this time?

I will answer the first two questions. @MaybeBabyMustache can answer the third one. I didn't say it was important for "most" people. However, if your 401k is fat enough, taxable investments may present more and possibly better options. If you plan to retire before 59.5, it's easier money to access. You also have more investment/low fee options in the open market than most employer plans. In a word: control.

None of that addresses why one would prioritize taxable over the backdoor Roth, as was being addressed. In a Roth IRA, you have easy access to your contributions, without triggering a taxable event, and you have access to the same investments that you have in taxable. Again, I am not denying that there may be some advantages in taxable for some situations, but OP already has a sizeable taxable account and should only prefer that if they have a clear plan for why. I would argue that for most early retirees, the Roth IRA gives you more control than a taxable account because you have added control over your taxable events.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 04:20:35 PM

Quote from: ixtap on January 15, 2021, 04:12:02 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 15, 2021, 04:06:06 PM

Quote from: ixtap on January 15, 2021, 12:31:42 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 11:17:49 AM

Thanks, @Dicey . We don't have a ton in our taxable investments ($400k), but we are planning to move somewhere less expensive & will be leveraging equity in our existing house (expect to have ~$2M left over after we buy another house, but pre closing costs, etc.)

I agree with the larger point. I'm going to continue to the full 401k amount, but dial back the backdoor Roth contributions & funnel that to taxable investments.

Why? While it is important for most people to have some amount in taxable, why do you plan to prioritize taxable over Roth at this time?

I will answer the first two questions. @MaybeBabyMustache can answer the third one. I didn't say it was important for "most" people. However, if your 401k is fat enough, taxable investments may present more and possibly better options. If you plan to retire before 59.5, it's easier money to access. You also have more investment/low fee options in the open market than most employer plans. In a word: control.

None of that addresses why one would prioritize taxable over the backdoor Roth, as was being addressed. In a Roth IRA, you have easy access to your contributions, without triggering a taxable event, and you have access to the same investments that you have in taxable. Again, I am not denying that there may be some advantages in taxable for some situations, but OP already has a sizeable taxable account and should only prefer that if they have a clear plan for why. I would argue that for most early retirees, the Roth IRA gives you more control than a taxable account because you have added control over your taxable events.

Thanks for all of the input here. @ixtap - refinement on my question. Given my husband plans to work at least until full retirement age, does that change your thinking? Put another way, I'll be an early retiree, but it's very unlikely he will be.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on January 15, 2021, 04:22:58 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 04:20:35 PM

Quote from: ixtap on January 15, 2021, 04:12:02 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 15, 2021, 04:06:06 PM

Quote from: ixtap on January 15, 2021, 12:31:42 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 11:17:49 AM

Thanks, @Dicey . We don't have a ton in our taxable investments ($400k), but we are planning to move somewhere less expensive & will be leveraging equity in our existing house (expect to have ~$2M left over after we buy another house, but pre closing costs, etc.)

I agree with the larger point. I'm going to continue to the full 401k amount, but dial back the backdoor Roth contributions & funnel that to taxable investments.

Why? While it is important for most people to have some amount in taxable, why do you plan to prioritize taxable over Roth at this time?

I will answer the first two questions. @MaybeBabyMustache can answer the third one. I didn't say it was important for "most" people. However, if your 401k is fat enough, taxable investments may present more and possibly better options. If you plan to retire before 59.5, it's easier money to access. You also have more investment/low fee options in the open market than most employer plans. In a word: control.

None of that addresses why one would prioritize taxable over the backdoor Roth, as was being addressed. In a Roth IRA, you have easy access to your contributions, without triggering a taxable event, and you have access to the same investments that you have in taxable. Again, I am not denying that there may be some advantages in taxable for some situations, but OP already has a sizeable taxable account and should only prefer that if they have a clear plan for why. I would argue that for most early retirees, the Roth IRA gives you more control than a taxable account because you have added control over your taxable events.

Thanks for all of the input here. @ixtap - refinement on my question. Given my husband plans to work at least until full retirement age, does that change your thinking? Put another way, I'll be an early retiree, but it's very unlikely he will be.

In my mind, it probably makes Roth even more valuable, as you may never be in a significantly lower tax bracket to a)pull from taxable without taxes or b) do Roth conversions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 04:24:17 PM

Awesome. Thanks for all of the input. Adding learning about Roth conversions to my list.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on January 15, 2021, 04:27:53 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 04:24:17 PM

Awesome. Thanks for all of the input. Adding learning about Roth conversions to my list.

We were talking about whether or not to continue backdoor Roth, but yes, I believe it is important to learn about conversions and figure out how they may fit into your particular situation.

If you haven't already, you may also want to look into mega backdoor Roth. The main advantage of taxable is tax loss harvesting and frankly you have to lose money to do that and/or be able to leave money sitting for your heirs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on January 21, 2021, 08:08:21 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 09, 2021, 12:40:23 PM

As of close of the markets yesterday, we joined this race for the first time with an aggregate balance of $2.005M across all our savings/retirement/investment accounts.  TNW including home equity is somewhere a little north of $2.4M.

Still holding the line at $2.029M LNW after a couple weeks.  I know we're likely to dip below $2M from time to time, but for now it's fun to see our balances staying (just) above that threshold.

The RE market has been pretty strong here as of late, and SmartZip now estimates our paid-off house at $472k.  Probably unrealistic, but I like how it makes our TNW +/- $2.5M.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 22, 2021, 05:46:11 AM

I wish I was in a position to work real estate for profit like many here.  We have 3 houses.  The Florida house is lived in about a tenth of the time.   The of the two Louisiana ones, both have been money pits for a long time.  We rented one for a while but it was a pain.  I can't wait to offload the two Louisiana houses and just have one.   Our taxable accounts are really low.  I guess when we sell the two in Louisiana that will go into taxable accounts.  I can't wait till almost all our assets fit inside my cell phone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BigEasyStache on January 22, 2021, 07:24:28 AM

My experience with rental property:

I had a single family rental home in the suburbs of NOLA.  I rented for 16 years. And while the money was good (this property generated a realized net annual gain of about $7,000) I absolutely don't miss:
Sewer line backing up while toilet doesn't shut off and house is flooded with fresh toilet water.  All carpets wet.
Tenant abandoning property without telling me and vandals breaking the windows.
50 foot red leaf maple tree (unknown that it was infested with termites) falling on neighbors house and destroying my fence and gazebo.
Anxiety every time a hurricane enters the gulf.  It's bad enough to take care of the home you live in but when tenants depend on you it sux.

The good part was that after 16 years of really hot appreciation, I sold the house for a very nice profit.....though I had 20% capital gains to pay since I didn't reinvest in more rental.

Yes, the returns are good...but I absolutely don't miss the headaches.

YMMV

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 22, 2021, 03:50:02 PM

Quote from: BigEasyStache on January 22, 2021, 07:24:28 AM

My experience with rental property:

I had a single family rental home in the suburbs of NOLA.  I rented for 16 years. And while the money was good (this property generated a realized net annual gain of about $7,000) I absolutely don't miss:
Sewer line backing up while toilet doesn't shut off and house is flooded with fresh toilet water.  All carpets wet.
Tenant abandoning property without telling me and vandals breaking the windows.
50 foot red leaf maple tree (unknown that it was infested with termites) falling on neighbors house and destroying my fence and gazebo.
Anxiety every time a hurricane enters the gulf.  It's bad enough to take care of the home you live in but when tenants depend on you it sux.

The good part was that after 16 years of really hot appreciation, I sold the house for a very nice profit.....though I had 20% capital gains to pay since I didn't reinvest in more rental.

Yes, the returns are good...but I absolutely don't miss the headaches.

YMMV

I absolutely agree!

The money is good, I make about $20k on two buildings (one a manufactured home) and those buildings are on the same property where we live.

There is always something going wrong with something. The thing is if something breaks in your own house thats something you can decide to put off fixing. But not really with renters.

They are paying for a service and you really want to keep them happy.

I have done very well though.. paid off my property in 6 years vs 30 years, thus saving over $300k in interest payments.

In 24 years I have ONLY had.

1) water pipe got chewed through by a rat.. Renters heard water running for 3 days before they thought they should tell me!!!

2) Renter got arrested and dragged out in handcuffs. His GF then filed a restraining order and the court evicted him.. He then started to go on a tirade about how he was going to sue ME for evicting him!.. geez.

3)  few days of sewers backing up before I found the root cause of the problem. Thankfully an easy fix.

4) Constant worries about what my renters are flushing down the toilets on aging and sensitive septic systems.

I now have a septic system that has failed.. I might just take the opportunity to not renew the lease on the manufactured home and plumb my house to that system. Not sure what the market is like to used 1995 manufactured homes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: alienbogey on January 22, 2021, 06:09:16 PM

I updated all of our investment accounts today and, for the first time, our LNW has passed into "Beyond!".

:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on January 22, 2021, 06:33:22 PM

Quote from: alienbogey on January 22, 2021, 06:09:16 PM

I updated all of our investment accounts today and, for the first time, our LNW has passed into "Beyond!".

:)

Congrats! 


Hopefully, now you'll be able to get back to your homeworld.  ;)   Once you reach the "Beyond" the acceleration rate becomes exponential. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 22, 2021, 06:54:10 PM

Quote from: alienbogey on January 22, 2021, 06:09:16 PM

I updated all of our investment accounts today and, for the first time, our LNW has passed into "Beyond!".

:)

Congrats.. Our LNW is only (ONLY!) $5k short of $2.7M but I hope we will join you there one day..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: billsfan1_2000 on January 24, 2021, 06:55:19 AM

Hi all.

I am a frequent reader but only occasional poster here.  I read with interest your many chronicles of life.

Hoping to lean into your insight y'all....

I am 57, LNW just over $4M and 5 weeks away from the magical date of Feb 26 when the annual bonus arrives (around $100k pre tax), multiple tranches of restricted shares will have vested, the firm's annual lump sum contribution to 401k will have been made, college age son's last tuition payment (finally!!) will be behind me. 

I have had the date March 1, 2021 circled on the mental calendar for 2 years now thinking that's the day I call the boss, give them the news that I am leaving and move on to different things.

Wondering how all of you handled the Decision?  Any regrets? 

I find myself torn between the desire to leave behind the soul crushing meetings, endless powerpoints and serious issues of balance where - partly because we are COVID work from home - the lines between personal and work life are blurred and we are expected to be "on" pretty much 24/7.

On the other hand - I become bored quickly and after a few months of fixing up the house wonder what on earth I'd do (apart from golf daily)?

Anyone have any thoughts on how the leap of faith to this new world went for you?  What part time jobs that are fun and pay for health insurance are out there?

With the date now looming worried about the transition from working in the professional world for 30++ years, with all the prestige, money, not having to care about spending, to - something different....

Cheers!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on January 24, 2021, 07:53:45 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on January 24, 2021, 06:55:19 AM

Hi all.

I am a frequent reader but only occasional poster here.  I read with interest your many chronicles of life.

Hoping to lean into your insight y'all....

I am 57, LNW just over $4M and 5 weeks away from the magical date of Feb 26 when the annual bonus arrives (around $100k pre tax), multiple tranches of restricted shares will have vested, the firm's annual lump sum contribution to 401k will have been made, college age son's last tuition payment (finally!!) will be behind me. 

I have had the date March 1, 2021 circled on the mental calendar for 2 years now thinking that's the day I call the boss, give them the news that I am leaving and move on to different things.

Wondering how all of you handled the Decision?  Any regrets? 

I find myself torn between the desire to leave behind the soul crushing meetings, endless powerpoints and serious issues of balance where - partly because we are COVID work from home - the lines between personal and work life are blurred and we are expected to be "on" pretty much 24/7.

On the other hand - I become bored quickly and after a few months of fixing up the house wonder what on earth I'd do (apart from golf daily)?

Anyone have any thoughts on how the leap of faith to this new world went for you?  What part time jobs that are fun and pay for health insurance are out there?

With the date now looming worried about the transition from working in the professional world for 30++ years, with all the prestige, money, not having to care about spending, to - something different....

Cheers!

Reinvent yourself.  Try anything that you've ever wanted to try.  Golf is for old guys & ladder climbing, you can always resume that later.  Go see the world.  Try something new.  Pick up an old passion that you'd given up to be a grown-up.  Do you like boats, motorcycles, airplanes, RVs?  What about crafts or hobbies?  Have you ever wanted to try pottery, glassblowing, woodworking, weaving, photography, orchid breeding, or growing the world's largest pumpkin?  Have you tried scuba diving, sky diving, river rafting, sailing, brewing beer, or racing gocarts?


If you're out of shape, well get in shape and then "go for it", whatever your its are.  Make a dream list & live some of your dreams.


Don't forget about volunteering.  Volunteers make the world a better place. 


Also, remember the saying "If you're bored it's because you are boring."  (or something like that) 


And...for another perspective, go visit a nursing home.  That's our next stop. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 24, 2021, 08:17:42 AM

@billsfan1_2000 - chiming in, as I took a sabbatical last year to try & answer some of these questions for myself. I'm now back to work, with a clear exit timeline & a better picture of the future. Full disclosure - I don't need to be working right now (slightly over the $4m mark), but there are a couple of financial milestones that are easier to hit with me working a few more years, and it's what I've agreed with my husband.

Over the sabbatical, my experience was I'm not interested in things I've never been interested in (cleaning the house all day was as unenjoyable as it was when I was employed full time). But, the mental space gave me the capacity to evaluate other areas of interest. I started a volunteering job (very part time for now), I came up with very clear routines for myself, & I worked out a lot. I explored writing, traveled (non COVID times), etc. For me, it was clear that I needed routines, some sort of social interaction outside of the people in my family, & something workish, even if very part time & not for pay. What you need will differ, but once you've had the time & space, mentally as well as just actual time, some of that will come to you.

Also, on my sabbatical, you know what i never missed fondly? Emails, meetings, deck creations, fire drills, etc. I did miss the camaraderie of great people, but that can be replicated in many ways.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 24, 2021, 11:15:14 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on January 24, 2021, 07:53:45 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on January 24, 2021, 06:55:19 AM

Hi all.

I am a frequent reader but only occasional poster here.  I read with interest your many chronicles of life.

Hoping to lean into your insight y'all....

I am 57, LNW just over $4M and 5 weeks away from the magical date of Feb 26 when the annual bonus arrives (around $100k pre tax), multiple tranches of restricted shares will have vested, the firm's annual lump sum contribution to 401k will have been made, college age son's last tuition payment (finally!!) will be behind me. 

I have had the date March 1, 2021 circled on the mental calendar for 2 years now thinking that's the day I call the boss, give them the news that I am leaving and move on to different things.

Wondering how all of you handled the Decision?  Any regrets? 

I find myself torn between the desire to leave behind the soul crushing meetings, endless powerpoints and serious issues of balance where - partly because we are COVID work from home - the lines between personal and work life are blurred and we are expected to be "on" pretty much 24/7.

On the other hand - I become bored quickly and after a few months of fixing up the house wonder what on earth I'd do (apart from golf daily)?

Anyone have any thoughts on how the leap of faith to this new world went for you?  What part time jobs that are fun and pay for health insurance are out there?

With the date now looming worried about the transition from working in the professional world for 30++ years, with all the prestige, money, not having to care about spending, to - something different....

Cheers!

Reinvent yourself.  Try anything that you've ever wanted to try.  Golf is for old guys & ladder climbing, you can always resume that later.  Go see the world.  Try something new.  Pick up an old passion that you'd given up to be a grown-up.  Do you like boats, motorcycles, airplanes, RVs?  What about crafts or hobbies?  Have you ever wanted to try pottery, glassblowing, woodworking, weaving, photography, orchid breeding, or growing the world's largest pumpkin?  Have you tried scuba diving, sky diving, river rafting, sailing, brewing beer, or racing gocarts?


If you're out of shape, well get in shape and then "go for it", whatever your its are.  Make a dream list & live some of your dreams.


Don't forget about volunteering.  Volunteers make the world a better place. 


Also, remember the saying "If you're bored it's because you are boring."  (or something like that) 


And...for another perspective, go visit a nursing home.  That's our next stop.

Very Well said! Totally agree.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 24, 2021, 11:29:41 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on January 24, 2021, 06:55:19 AM

Hi all.

I am a frequent reader but only occasional poster here.  I read with interest your many chronicles of life.

Hoping to lean into your insight y'all....

I am 57, LNW just over $4M and 5 weeks away from the magical date of Feb 26 when the annual bonus arrives (around $100k pre tax), multiple tranches of restricted shares will have vested, the firm's annual lump sum contribution to 401k will have been made, college age son's last tuition payment (finally!!) will be behind me. 

I have had the date March 1, 2021 circled on the mental calendar for 2 years now thinking that's the day I call the boss, give them the news that I am leaving and move on to different things.

Wondering how all of you handled the Decision?  Any regrets? 

I find myself torn between the desire to leave behind the soul crushing meetings, endless powerpoints and serious issues of balance where - partly because we are COVID work from home - the lines between personal and work life are blurred and we are expected to be "on" pretty much 24/7.

On the other hand - I become bored quickly and after a few months of fixing up the house wonder what on earth I'd do (apart from golf daily)?

Anyone have any thoughts on how the leap of faith to this new world went for you?  What part time jobs that are fun and pay for health insurance are out there?

With the date now looming worried about the transition from working in the professional world for 30++ years, with all the prestige, money, not having to care about spending, to - something different....

Cheers!

What you chose to do depends a lot on your personality type. I feel happiest when I'm actually creating something rather than just passively watching videos or even reading stuff. I have been making good progress on actually getting back to creating stuff in retirement.

Although I worked in the software industry for thirty years, towards the end, I spent more time in endless meetings discussing what to do rather than actually writing code. After I retired last October, I have been thoroughly absorbed learning Swift (a new programming language from Apple)  and am planning to start releasing apps on the App Store.

Meanwhile, I have just finished renovating my basement and am getting back into building a model train layout - which has been my hobby since childhood.

The three big requirements for most hobbies are time, space and money - in retirement you will most likely have all three. Nothing stopping you from getting started 😀

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 24, 2021, 11:45:45 AM

So I had a couple of well documented false starts to retirement, but thats OK because I had the most fun I've ever had being paid hourly for the first time in my life after I retired. Whats more they sent me all over the world and the money was rolling in every hour I snoozed on the airplane..:).

Now after 4 years of no paid work whatsoever I can't imagine actually working for a living! Just figuring out the tax code so you can minimise your income and maximise your ACA subsidy is a project in itself..:)

Incidentley my Wife and I spend about $40 to 50k/year but have an official income of $32 and pay under $10/month for a Bronze plan.

I personally love travel and when I can't I'm working in my shop on something or another. We have a small farmette and two rental buildings on our property. Something always needs to be welded somewhere..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on January 24, 2021, 12:25:00 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 24, 2021, 08:17:42 AM

@billsfan1_2000 -
 ... Big snip....., deck creations, ...........small snip....

@MaybeBabyMustache    Ok I'll bite, what is a deck creation?
I swear I looked it up but only got references to the wood thingy you attach to your house.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 24, 2021, 01:45:42 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on January 24, 2021, 12:25:00 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 24, 2021, 08:17:42 AM

@billsfan1_2000 -
 ... Big snip....., deck creations, ...........small snip....

@MaybeBabyMustache    Ok I'll bite, what is a deck creation?
I swear I looked it up but only got references to the wood thingy you attach to your house.

Slides :-) Powerpoint, Google Slides, etc. So many meetings, so many exec presentations, so many "decks" created

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on January 24, 2021, 03:08:17 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 24, 2021, 01:45:42 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on January 24, 2021, 12:25:00 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on January 24, 2021, 08:17:42 AM

@billsfan1_2000 -
 ... Big snip....., deck creations, ...........small snip....

@MaybeBabyMustache    Ok I'll bite, what is a deck creation?
I swear I looked it up but only got references to the wood thingy you attach to your house.

Slides :-) Powerpoint, Google Slides, etc. So many meetings, so many exec presentations, so many "decks" created

Sorry I still think of decks as in Hypercard© stacks.  :-)   

Powerpoint:
I've seen Powerpoint accused of:
       the Challenger Disaster  in  Visual and Statistical Thinking: Displays of Evidence for Making Decisions  Edward R. Tufte ISBN-13: 978-0961392130 pg 16-31
       the Columbia Disaster in    The Cognitive Style of PowerPoint: Pitching Out Corrupts Within, by Edward R. Tufte   ISBN-13: 978-0961392161  pg 7-11 
      issues with inappropriate strategies ie Effect Based Operations (vs being adaptable) being used.   Call Sign Chaos: Learning to Lead by Jim Mattis

So what you may think is your visceral reaction to Powerpoint seems to be supported by data.

Just a shout-out to Jim Mattis, who went to the same local high school as my wife.  Also, Secretary of Defense to Trump who quit after one year:

Quote

"Because you have the right to have a Secretary of Defense whose views are better aligned with yours on these and other subjects, I believe it is right for me to step down from my position. "

  - That is pretty harsh language from a ex-military Sec. of Def.  He is a Marine, you can fill in the blanks.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/20/politics/james-mattis-resignation-letter-doc/index.html

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 24, 2021, 03:38:31 PM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on January 24, 2021, 06:55:19 AM

Hi all.

I am a frequent reader but only occasional poster here.  I read with interest your many chronicles of life.

Hoping to lean into your insight y'all....

I am 57, LNW just over $4M and 5 weeks away from the magical date of Feb 26 when the annual bonus arrives (around $100k pre tax), multiple tranches of restricted shares will have vested, the firm's annual lump sum contribution to 401k will have been made, college age son's last tuition payment (finally!!) will be behind me. 

I have had the date March 1, 2021 circled on the mental calendar for 2 years now thinking that's the day I call the boss, give them the news that I am leaving and move on to different things.

Wondering how all of you handled the Decision?  Any regrets? 

I find myself torn between the desire to leave behind the soul crushing meetings, endless powerpoints and serious issues of balance where - partly because we are COVID work from home - the lines between personal and work life are blurred and we are expected to be "on" pretty much 24/7.

On the other hand - I become bored quickly and after a few months of fixing up the house wonder what on earth I'd do (apart from golf daily)?

Anyone have any thoughts on how the leap of faith to this new world went for you?  What part time jobs that are fun and pay for health insurance are out there?

With the date now looming worried about the transition from working in the professional world for 30++ years, with all the prestige, money, not having to care about spending, to - something different....

Cheers!

Learn / Attempt to learn a musical instrument.  You are not too old to rock'n'roll.  Or learn a second one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on January 24, 2021, 04:13:49 PM

It’s so interesting to be thinking thoughts about bonus payments coming up, lump sum retirement contribution, and performance reviews, and wondering about the same OMY thoughts I get into during the second quarter of every year. And what do I find when I check my favorite thread? Same issue with some pretty great answers, that’s what!

But until early March at least, I’m still working, so back into the garage for some weekend rebar and concrete form work, and later tonight a couple of slides to finish up an important deck for tomorrow...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 24, 2021, 04:36:37 PM

@markbike528CBX - hello, from a Washington native (now in CA). I've spent LOTS of my career working on decks, and there are pros & cons for sure. Mostly because data & slides can be adapted to support pretty much anything. ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: aspiringnomad on January 26, 2021, 09:44:41 AM

Hi all - just checking in here after graduating from the previous thread. Currently at $2.25m net worth including a paid off rental property. I'm 38 and FIRE'd abroad last year so not really racing anywhere anymore, but thought I might benefit from the wisdom of folks here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Melisande on January 26, 2021, 07:51:36 PM

Just checked the finances today and what with the latest upswing in the markets, I am happy to report  that we are now over $3M with investments (NW = $3.42M  with equity included).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on January 28, 2021, 09:01:01 AM

Quote from: aspiringnomad on January 26, 2021, 09:44:41 AM

Hi all - just checking in here after graduating from the previous thread. Currently at $2.25m net worth including a paid off rental property. I'm 38 and FIRE'd abroad last year so not really racing anywhere anymore, but thought I might benefit from the wisdom of folks here.

Welcome to the thread.  None of us are racing anywhere, really!  More like a saunter.   Where did you retire abroad? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 29, 2021, 05:26:47 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on January 28, 2021, 09:01:01 AM

None of us are racing anywhere, really!  More like a saunter.   Where did you retire abroad?

Indeed. 90 pages of saunter.

The main posters on this thread are those that posted back on page 1.

I just check from time to time, but back on page 1 we were mostly just pushing past $2m and now most of us have passed $3m or $4m. And that is just 4 years ago.

I still don’t know when I’ll FIRE.

I’ve been financially handcuffed by my employer now through to Feb 2021. I’ll prob play along and make a decision at that point. It will not really be a financial decision, although I’m not so rich that more money won’t be useful to some degree. It’s now more a question of whether DW and I are ready to completely disrupt our lives. We oscillate on this. DW is quite keen to continue working.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on January 29, 2021, 08:16:12 AM

Well, I'm started on my very gradual RE.  I'm now officially on a 3 day week, and will try to reduce further at Easter (or stop altogether).

I have to say with Covid/homeschool/winter/tax season/life it doesn't particularly feel like I am part time!  But I have been working fewer hours, and definitely feeling less broken than I would have been if I'd been trying to bill 40-50 hours a week on top of everything else.  So feeling grateful to have the freedom to do that!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: JoJoP on January 29, 2021, 01:30:50 PM

Quote from: Laura33 on May 08, 2017, 08:00:20 AM

Quote from: begood on May 08, 2017, 05:23:11 AM

Dicey, if you don't mind my asking, how do you assign a value to your husband's defined benefit pension? My husband should get about $27K/year (flat,non-COLA'd, 50% joint survivor) starting in 13 years.

Well, you didn't ask me :-), but what I do is divide by .04, to figure how how much the "'stache-equivalent" amount is.  E.g., to take out $27K/yr at the 4% rule, I'd need $675K.  Now, that is the 'stache-equivalent in 13 years, when he is eligible for that $27K/yr.  So if you want the current value of that, you could present-value it back to today's dollars.  But personally, I don't care that much -- I just like to know that, hey, in 13 years, I will have the equivalent of $675K more in my 'stache. 

But actually, even that is bass-ackwards, because the whole point of the 'stache is to throw off income -- so when you already know the income, you don't even need to calculate an equivalent 'stache value.  So in your case, I'd just knock the $27K off of the annual income you need, and then figure out how much else you need to save to cover the delta.  E.g., I need $40K/yr, I have $27K/yr already guaranteed, so my delta is $13K/yr.  Ergo, 4% rule, I need $13K x 25 = $325K more in my 'stache in 13 years.

Here's a good quote from page 1 one the thread.   With the amazing gains that the stock market has seen, most of you must be soaring by the goals of several years ago.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 29, 2021, 02:48:27 PM

The past week snipped a few gains.  But yes, when first posting on MMM my goal was 1.5M, that passed a while ago along with a mindset change.  Now it's a date goal.  881 days to go.
My old goals are below.  Recently touched 2.7M it's possible to hit 3.5M by the target date. 


FIRE 2023

2016  $1,300,000
2017  $1,440,000
2018  $1,588,000
2019  $1,743,000
2020  $1,906,000
2021  $2,077,000
2022  $ 2,256,000
2023  $2,445,000
*****FIRE*********age 55 (minimum retirement age from employer)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: 2sk22 on January 30, 2021, 03:43:56 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on January 29, 2021, 01:30:50 PM

Here's a good quote from page 1 one the thread.   With the amazing gains that the stock market has seen, most of you must be soaring by the goals of several years ago.

Hah - I didn't even have a goal in 2017. This was before I had discovered FIRE and still enjoyed my work. I fully expected to work until 65. But then, there was a corporate reshuffle that wiped out my entire chain of highly supportive managers. By the end of 2018, I was eyeing the exits and wondering if I had enough to quit.

The first time I ran a FIRE calculator was at the end of 2018 (I think it was cFIREsim) and I discovered that I was already FI. The power of index fund investment on autopilot for 25 years 😀

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 30, 2021, 03:45:42 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 29, 2021, 02:48:27 PM

The past week snipped a few gains.  But yes, when first posting on MMM my goal was 1.5M, that passed a while ago along with a mindset change.  Now it's a date goal.  881 days to go.
My old goals are below.  Recently touched 2.7M it's possible to hit 3.5M by the target date. 


FIRE 2023

2016  $1,300,000
2017  $1,440,000
2018  $1,588,000
2019  $1,743,000
2020  $1,906,000
2021  $2,077,000
2022  $ 2,256,000
2023  $2,445,000
*****FIRE*********age 55 (minimum retirement age from employer)

Well done! And totally possible

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on January 30, 2021, 06:43:55 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 29, 2021, 02:48:27 PM

The past week snipped a few gains.  But yes, when first posting on MMM my goal was 1.5M, that passed a while ago along with a mindset change.  Now it's a date goal.  881 days to go.
My old goals are below.  Recently touched 2.7M it's possible to hit 3.5M by the target date. 


FIRE 2023

2016  $1,300,000
2017  $1,440,000
2018  $1,588,000
2019  $1,743,000
2020  $1,906,000
2021  $2,077,000
2022  $ 2,256,000
2023  $2,445,000
*****FIRE*********age 55 (minimum retirement age from employer)

Good job.   I definitely had a mindset change from when I hit my first goal to when I ultimately FIRE'd  I hated what I was doing and wanted out so badly.  So when I hit that first number, which was probably my real FI number when I think about it, it caused me to really start thinking about my overall FIRE plan and I realized that there was more needed in the budget for wants (for DW and kids and me) to be fully satisfied (more of a fatfire) plus wanting to put some more aside for college, medical, and looming big purchases (car, desired but not needed home improvements). 

In hindsight, even though I hated my job it was working a few more years to shore up the finances and really cover the lifestyle.  Somewhat of a OMY combined with intentionally inflating the budget (we could have been fine on the lower number but there would have been less wants provided for and maybe more college loans).  So worth it. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on January 30, 2021, 01:39:25 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 29, 2021, 02:48:27 PM

The past week snipped a few gains.  But yes, when first posting on MMM my goal was 1.5M, that passed a while ago along with a mindset change.  Now it's a date goal.  881 days to go.
My old goals are below.  Recently touched 2.7M it's possible to hit 3.5M by the target date. 


FIRE 2023

2016  $1,300,000
2017  $1,440,000
2018  $1,588,000
2019  $1,743,000
2020  $1,906,000
2021  $2,077,000
2022  $ 2,256,000
2023  $2,445,000
*****FIRE*********age 55 (minimum retirement age from employer)

Good for you, Bateaux.   I think having a plan (subject to revisions) will keep things in perspective.   

For us, semi retirement is great.   We have minimal obligations and lots of freedom.   That used to mean we traveled extensively, and 2020 lockdowns meant 6 or 8 trips cancelled, mostly abroad.    We picked up a great oceanfront second home and driving there holds minimal covid risk. 

 Since we were both self employed, our game plan and financial landscape look so completely different than anyone in the corporate world with pensions and 401ks.   There's far less to shed in FI when your boss looks back at you from the mirror.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 03, 2021, 12:53:42 PM

What a rollercoaster the market has been last week or so especially with the Reddit/ Wallstreetbets crew,  BUT a lot of total blowout earnings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Hijinks on February 05, 2021, 01:34:29 PM

This is kind of nuts, but it looks like I can officially post in this thread now. The last time I posted a net worth update was ages ago.

07/06/19 $1,343,274
02/05/21 $2,002,435

That jump is pretty bonkers to me, and I fully recognize that we will likely hop around the $2M mark for a while. Numbers reflect cash and investments (but excludes equity in our home, of which we have $163,220).

Very excited to start following along on everyone's journeys!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 05, 2021, 09:58:31 PM

Quote from: Hijinks on February 05, 2021, 01:34:29 PM

This is kind of nuts, but it looks like I can officially post in this thread now. The last time I posted a net worth update was ages ago.

07/06/19 $1,343,274
02/05/21 $2,002,435

That jump is pretty bonkers to me, and I fully recognize that we will likely hop around the $2M mark for a while. Numbers reflect cash and investments (but excludes equity in our home, of which we have $163,220).

Very excited to start following along on everyone's journeys!

Congratulations!

I kinda think there will be a lot of entries this year. All over the globe the powers at be are creating a lot of money.  That money should eventually find its way to worthy mustachians.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 06, 2021, 05:00:05 AM

I agree this year, well really the past 4 years is nuts.  In June of 2017, I engaged a fee only financial advisor to back check my theory that I should take a mortgage out and invest the difference when I moved locations (@Dicey DPOYM).  My net worth at that time was $1,232,900 with only 675,081 in investments, but 500k in a primary and rental property.

Today I’m at 2,060,000 with $1,840,000 liquid, I do count equity in my home for net worth for multiple reasons.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 06, 2021, 07:09:52 AM

The increases have been surreal, no other way to put it.  And I have fairly conservative AA.   The weird feelings I have sometimes is that I think I would prefer to have less but with more stable normal kind of growth as for now I can't help but think the increases for the last few years will vanish.   Easy come, easy go kind of thinking.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 06, 2021, 07:24:33 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 06, 2021, 07:09:52 AM

The increases have been surreal, no other way to put it.  And I have fairly conservative AA.   The weird feelings I have sometimes is that I think I would prefer to have less but with more stable normal kind of growth as for now I can't help but think the increases for the last few years will vanish.   Easy come, easy go kind of thinking.

I keep periodically showing my wife net worth data (currently, just about $5.6M with a very conservative AA) and she still doesn't believe it either 😀

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Hijinks on February 06, 2021, 08:14:06 AM

Quote from: pecunia on February 05, 2021, 09:58:31 PM

Quote from: Hijinks on February 05, 2021, 01:34:29 PM

This is kind of nuts, but it looks like I can officially post in this thread now. The last time I posted a net worth update was ages ago.

07/06/19 $1,343,274
02/05/21 $2,002,435

That jump is pretty bonkers to me, and I fully recognize that we will likely hop around the $2M mark for a while. Numbers reflect cash and investments (but excludes equity in our home, of which we have $163,220).

Very excited to start following along on everyone's journeys!

Congratulations!

I kinda think there will be a lot of entries this year. All over the globe the powers at be are creating a lot of money.  That money should eventually find its way to worthy mustachians.

Thank you! I'm still just completely shocked.

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 06, 2021, 07:24:33 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 06, 2021, 07:09:52 AM

The increases have been surreal, no other way to put it.  And I have fairly conservative AA.   The weird feelings I have sometimes is that I think I would prefer to have less but with more stable normal kind of growth as for now I can't help but think the increases for the last few years will vanish.   Easy come, easy go kind of thinking.

I keep periodically showing my wife net worth data (currently, just about $5.6M with a very conservative AA) and she still doesn't believe it either 😀

My husband doesn't believe it either! Also, we both had pretty decent stashes when we were single, but getting married and joining forces has really ramped things up!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 06, 2021, 10:23:04 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 06, 2021, 07:09:52 AM

The increases have been surreal, no other way to put it.  And I have fairly conservative AA.   The weird feelings I have sometimes is that I think I would prefer to have less but with more stable normal kind of growth as for now I can't help but think the increases for the last few years will vanish.   Easy come, easy go kind of thinking.

Yes, the market has been great for the past decade, but it usually is great.  Here's average annual total returns for the S&P 500 per decade:

1920s: 15%
1930s: -3%
1940s: 10%
1950s: 19%
1960s: 8%
1970s: 6%
1980s 18%
1990s: 18%
2000s: -1%
2010s: 14%

So its not like we're on a once in a lifetime tear by any measure.  The past decade was amazing compared to the real 3-6% most here conservatively have in their head as expected returns.

But yes wrt easy come easy go, not only looking at years within decades can show a much different story, heck, just looking at particular months in 2020 looked frightening....but then didn't.

I wouldn't be surprised at all with next decade returning 15%/year on average...or nothing at all.  Heck, its all within one standard deviation so its not like either of those results would be extreme!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 06, 2021, 11:02:21 AM

Even though I overreacted and cashed out of the market during the crash and only slowly began to reenter in late June we're up 30.4% today.  VTI gained almost 21% for 2020, so I don't feel too bad.  Plus I harvested the losses which will offset some of the gains from the real estate we sold. 


2020 taught me a lot about investing and I am grateful for the experience.  It could have been so much better, but it could have been so much worse. 


Cheers!
:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 06, 2021, 11:03:45 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on February 06, 2021, 10:23:04 AM

Here's average annual total returns for the S&P 500 per decade:

1920s: 15%
1930s: -3%
1940s: 10%
1950s: 19%
1960s: 8%
1970s: 6%
1980s 18%
1990s: 18%
2000s: -1%
2010s: 14%

Yep.  Averages out to 10.4%.   Historical average is a smidge over 10%.   Gosh, pretty much like we read it was.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 06, 2021, 11:29:11 AM

Just have to watch out for those lost decades.  Luckily many of us were building the stash during the 2000s and are now seeing the returns.  Those that retired in the 90s may have had some challenges however.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 06, 2021, 12:39:05 PM

I think the market is looking a little overheated so I took a look at our AA. I thought we were running around 60:40 but its actually 72/28 due to the recent stock run ups.

I might rebalance some of that next week especially in the light of the Fed pledging to keep interest rates low.

Would give a lot of buying power if stocks take a major dump too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 06, 2021, 03:23:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 06, 2021, 12:39:05 PM

I think the market is looking a little overheated ...

I've thought the same thing since 2012.   

I've learned to live with the fact that I have no clue what the market will do -- other than it will trend upwards over time and periodically drop like a stone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 06, 2021, 04:05:44 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 06, 2021, 03:23:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 06, 2021, 12:39:05 PM

I think the market is looking a little overheated ...

I've thought the same thing since 2012.   

I've learned to live with the fact that I have no clue what the market will do -- other than it will trend upwards over time and periodically drop like a stone.

I was at 67/33 so instead of rebalancing I took out about my next 6 months of withdrawals out for the year. If it keeps running I wont be taking out and if it drops to a buyable spot I have extra cash to buy back. There is now 4 Trillion on the sidelines and more stimulus coming and great earnings reported so one would think though bumpy we could , maybe, perhaps, but who knows see some more upside...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 06, 2021, 04:53:07 PM

History question about those stock market returns:

1920s: 15%
1930s: -3%
1940s: 10%
1950s: 19%
1960s: 8%
1970s: 6%
1980s 18%
1990s: 18%
2000s: -1%
2010s: 14%

Why were the returns low in the 1960s and 1970s?  I remember oil going up in the 70s and hammering the economy.  I remember inflation in the seventies.  What about the sixties?  Gas was cheap, American manufacturing was booming and a war was going on.  I can see the 2000s.  It got hammered by the dot com boom and the real estate speculation in 2008-9.  The 1960s was when America went to the moon.  I thought they were supposed to be golden years.  Can we be hit by whatever happened in the sixties?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on February 06, 2021, 05:21:20 PM

Vietnam war. Protectionism. Gold standard.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: swaneesr on February 06, 2021, 07:04:05 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 06, 2021, 03:23:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 06, 2021, 12:39:05 PM

I think the market is looking a little overheated ...

I've thought the same thing since 2012.   

I've learned to live with the fact that I have no clue what the market will do -- other than it will trend upwards over time and periodically drop like a stone.

Me too. I need to learn to accept that I have no clue what and when the market will move. So much drama. I just need to sit tight and bear the good and bad.

If I followed my impulses I would more often be wrong.

Swanee


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 06, 2021, 09:54:22 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 06, 2021, 04:05:44 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 06, 2021, 03:23:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 06, 2021, 12:39:05 PM

I think the market is looking a little overheated ...

I've thought the same thing since 2012.   

I've learned to live with the fact that I have no clue what the market will do -- other than it will trend upwards over time and periodically drop like a stone.

I was at 67/33 so instead of rebalancing I took out about my next 6 months of withdrawals out for the year. If it keeps running I wont be taking out and if it drops to a buyable spot I have extra cash to buy back. There is now 4 Trillion on the sidelines and more stimulus coming and great earnings reported so one would think though bumpy we could , maybe, perhaps, but who knows see some more upside...

I too think there is more upside but also downside.   Anyway, don't buy into the cash on the sidelines narrative.   Cash balances increase over time but aside from that think about all the people like me that have moved a lot of bond holdings into cash getting similar rate without duration risk.  Meanwhile fed and foreign investors are providing demand to keep rates low.  Hence a lot of cash on sidelines

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: FireLane on February 07, 2021, 07:49:33 AM

Just idle speculation, but I wonder if the coming decades could see a major increase in stock market returns.

It's technology that drives productivity, and we're poised for an era of exponential technology growth. In the next decade, we're going to see self-landing rockets making spaceflight cheap, self-driving cars deployed at scale, 3-D printing and robotics making it trivial to manufacture most consumer products, and CRISPR-based genetic therapy and RNA vaccines curing most diseases. Plus, with the proliferation of wind and solar, we'll have abundant cheap energy at a level we haven't seen since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.

Possibly I'm being too optimistic. But markets are pretty good at making forecasts, and when the market stays at these P/E levels for this long, maybe it's not a fluke. Maybe it's a signal about how valuable it's going to be for the people who own the technology in the near future.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on February 07, 2021, 07:57:22 AM

I just crossed into the $2MM mark this week.  I FIREd at a bit over $1MM in July 2015 - so I got my 2nd million while not working in about 5.5 years. Crazy.

I am all in stocks (index funds), but have a pension (taking) and SS (not old enough to take yet) so those are my “bond” allocation.

How long for the next million or doubling??

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 07, 2021, 09:23:29 AM

Quote from: pecunia on February 06, 2021, 04:53:07 PM

History question about those stock market returns:

1920s: 15%
1930s: -3%
1940s: 10%
1950s: 19%
1960s: 8%
1970s: 6%
1980s 18%
1990s: 18%
2000s: -1%
2010s: 14%

Why were the returns low in the 1960s and 1970s?  I remember oil going up in the 70s and hammering the economy.  I remember inflation in the seventies.  What about the sixties?  Gas was cheap, American manufacturing was booming and a war was going on.  I can see the 2000s.  It got hammered by the dot com boom and the real estate speculation in 2008-9.  The 1960s was when America went to the moon.  I thought they were supposed to be golden years.  Can we be hit by whatever happened in the sixties?

So many different ways to look at it.  Maybe because the stock market is forward looking, so the market was bad in the 60s b/c of things being bad in the 70s.  Maybe we were just due after two great decades of returns (maybe the 2000s was that as well, and maybe that means we could have another great decade in store for the 2020s and then for the 2030s watch out...).  All just guesses of course but that's about all I know to do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 07, 2021, 10:07:51 AM

Quote from: FireLane on February 07, 2021, 07:49:33 AM

Just idle speculation, but I wonder if the coming decades could see a major increase in stock market returns.

It's technology that drives productivity, and we're poised for an era of exponential technology growth. In the next decade, we're going to see self-landing rockets making spaceflight cheap, self-driving cars deployed at scale, 3-D printing and robotics making it trivial to manufacture most consumer products, and CRISPR-based genetic therapy and RNA vaccines curing most diseases. Plus, with the proliferation of wind and solar, we'll have abundant cheap energy at a level we haven't seen since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.

Possibly I'm being too optimistic. But markets are pretty good at making forecasts, and when the market stays at these P/E levels for this long, maybe it's not a fluke. Maybe it's a signal about how valuable it's going to be for the people who own the technology in the near future.

The future looks exciting.  But you can be certain political, social, and environmental issues will continue to provide plenty of bumps along the way. 


Alternative energy funds and ARK's disruptive innovation ETFs have sure gotten a lot of attention recently. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on February 07, 2021, 01:45:27 PM

Quote from: G-dog on February 07, 2021, 07:57:22 AM

I just crossed into the $2MM mark this week.  I FIREd at a bit over $1MM in July 2015 - so I got my 2nd million while not working in about 5.5 years. Crazy.

I am all in stocks (index funds), but have a pension (taking) and SS (not old enough to take yet) so those are my “bond” allocation.

How long for the next million or doubling??

I'm going to say 3 years the way you don't spend $!! Congrats!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on February 07, 2021, 01:49:07 PM

Quote from: couponvan on February 07, 2021, 01:45:27 PM

Quote from: G-dog on February 07, 2021, 07:57:22 AM

I just crossed into the $2MM mark this week.  I FIREd at a bit over $1MM in July 2015 - so I got my 2nd million while not working in about 5.5 years. Crazy.

I am all in stocks (index funds), but have a pension (taking) and SS (not old enough to take yet) so those are my “bond” allocation.

How long for the next million or doubling??

I'm going to say 3 years the way you don't spend $!! Congrats!!

Thanks!  When I can find people to fix things around the house, the floodgates will open!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on February 07, 2021, 02:00:32 PM

Quote from: G-dog on February 07, 2021, 01:49:07 PM

Quote from: couponvan on February 07, 2021, 01:45:27 PM

Quote from: G-dog on February 07, 2021, 07:57:22 AM

I just crossed into the $2MM mark this week.  I FIREd at a bit over $1MM in July 2015 - so I got my 2nd million while not working in about 5.5 years. Crazy.

I am all in stocks (index funds), but have a pension (taking) and SS (not old enough to take yet) so those are my “bond” allocation.

How long for the next million or doubling??

I'm going to say 3 years the way you don't spend $!! Congrats!!

Thanks!  When I can find people to fix things around the house, the floodgates will open!

Just buy a new house with all that money! Oh wait. That plays into you not spending. lol  Your version of floodgates and mine are hugely different. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: swaneesr on February 07, 2021, 02:20:19 PM

Quote from: couponvan on February 07, 2021, 01:45:27 PM

Quote from: G-dog on February 07, 2021, 07:57:22 AM

I just crossed into the $2MM mark this week.  I FIREd at a bit over $1MM in July 2015 - so I got my 2nd million while not working in about 5.5 years. Crazy.

I am all in stocks (index funds), but have a pension (taking) and SS (not old enough to take yet) so those are my “bond” allocation.

How long for the next million or doubling??

I'm going to say 3 years the way you don't spend $!! Congrats!!

Wow.  I hope this comes to pass.

For selfish reasons, sorry.  DW and I are very similar situation as G-dog and nearing retirement.

Swanee


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on February 07, 2021, 02:31:31 PM

Quote from: swaneesr on February 07, 2021, 02:20:19 PM

Quote from: couponvan on February 07, 2021, 01:45:27 PM

Quote from: G-dog on February 07, 2021, 07:57:22 AM

I just crossed into the $2MM mark this week.  I FIREd at a bit over $1MM in July 2015 - so I got my 2nd million while not working in about 5.5 years. Crazy.

I am all in stocks (index funds), but have a pension (taking) and SS (not old enough to take yet) so those are my “bond” allocation.

How long for the next million or doubling??

I'm going to say 3 years the way you don't spend $!! Congrats!!

Wow.  I hope this comes to pass.

For selfish reasons, sorry.  DW and I are very similar situation as G-dog and nearing retirement.

Swanee


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The markets are crazy - so who knows what will happen.  My portfolio sure has a life of its own though, even though I am not juicing it much. This has made it very clear to me that you don’t have to do everything perfectly (plenty of mistakes were and are being made), and it will still work.

Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on February 08, 2021, 08:50:55 AM

Crazy markets for sure. Last March our NW had dropped to 1.9m Today we have passed $2.7m and are marching onward


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 08, 2021, 11:50:54 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 08, 2021, 08:50:55 AM

Crazy markets for sure. Last March our NW had dropped to 1.9m Today we have passed $2.7m and are marching onward


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep, from the March low the Vanguard Total market is up 80%.  Crazy to watch something that diversified almost double in a year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 08, 2021, 01:17:23 PM

Discussions at work, inflation is our biggest concern.  My shift is made up of old guys.  Every single one of us are in gear down mode.  Ages are 66, 62, 56 and 52.  I'm the baby at 52.  The 66 and 62 have already put in their dates and have less than a year.  The 56 is building a house and will look at where he stands after moving in.  He doesn't plan to pay off the house with the low interest rates.  I will go sometime between tomorrow and mid 2023.  I'm going to miss these guys a lot.  We'll live in three different states in retirement.   My desire to go will definitely increase as they leave.  Work is fun because we all have FU Money, we are all,millionaires.  We are all college educated, we are all frugal, we are all married to the same spouses for over 30 years.  None of us have called in for a sick day in three decades.  None of us have missed one day of being on site at work due to Covid.  We all have a company pension. We all have six weeks of vacation time and one week of paid time off. We are all offered company sponsored health care in retirement if you work till 55.  All of our wives are independant, smart and college educated.  All of our children are college educated. 
We've all been in a very comfortable bubble.  Our company used a battery of testing and interviews to select for our exact traits. I can never remember an argument.  We have friendly debates over coffee and have our individual opinions.  It's incredibly hard to leave such a level of comfort making six figures.  When their Gen Z replacements walk in with nose rings, tats and GTFO attitude I'll be ready.  It will be their turn.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 08, 2021, 01:54:02 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 08, 2021, 01:17:23 PM

Discussions at work, inflation is our biggest concern.  My shift is made up of old guys.  Every single one of us are in gear down mode.  Ages are 66, 62, 56 and 52.  I'm the baby at 52.  The 66 and 62 have already put in their dates and have less than a year.  The 56 is building a house and will look at where he stands after moving in.  He doesn't plan to pay off the house with the low interest rates.  I will go sometime between tomorrow and mid 2023.  I'm going to miss these guys a lot.  We'll live in three different states in retirement.   My desire to go will definitely increase as they leave.  Work is fun because we all have FU Money, we are all,millionaires.  We are all college educated, we are all frugal, we are all married to the same spouses for over 30 years.  None of us have called in for a sick day in three decades.  None of us have missed one day of being on site at work due to Covid.  We all have a company pension. We all have six weeks of vacation time and one week of paid time off. We are all offered company sponsored health care in retirement if you work till 55.  All of our wives are independant, smart and college educated.  All of our children are college educated. 
We've all been in a very comfortable bubble.  Our company used a battery of testing and interviews to select for our exact traits. I can never remember an argument.  We have friendly debates over coffee and have our individual opinions.  It's incredibly hard to leave such a level of comfort making six figures.  When their Gen Z replacements walk in with nose rings, tats and GTFO attitude I'll be ready.  It will be their turn.

That's a pretty amazing group and family situation, Bateaux.  I've been been following your Louisiana/Florida odyssey, and now I understand better why you're sticking around.  Health insurance is one thing.  A group like that might be even more important.  With the 12-hour shifts, one-week on/one-week off, and with the diving avatar image, are you diving off a rig?  In that case, you'd want to have a group like that around you.  Even if you're not diving, if you're on a rig or even a control room in close quarters with safety a primary concern, going through changes to a team like yours would be a big reason to move on.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 08, 2021, 02:06:36 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 08, 2021, 01:17:23 PM

We are all offered company sponsored health care in retirement if you work till 55. 

Wow, how good a plan & cost is that, And its all or nothing exactly at 55?  I could see that being some serious golden handcuffs at your point in the game and not hating work yet.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on February 08, 2021, 03:00:33 PM

Thank God my hubby wants to keep working. I will need a healthcare sugar daddy when I FIRE.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on February 08, 2021, 03:28:15 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on February 08, 2021, 02:06:36 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 08, 2021, 01:17:23 PM

We are all offered company sponsored health care in retirement if you work till 55. 

Wow, how good a plan & cost is that, And its all or nothing exactly at 55?  I could see that being some serious golden handcuffs at your point in the game and not hating work yet.

If I wasn’t hating my corporation and boss, I wouldn’t have retired early.  They sucked all the fun and enjoyment out of work with their stupid fuckery.

My co-workers were great (except a couple of them)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 08, 2021, 06:42:38 PM

By the way I'm not hating on the younger generation that will take our jobs.  They are very different and will do things their way.  If anything, I'm only jealous of their youth and vitality.  I will greatly miss our work relationship.  I'm only a recreational scuba diver and work in a land based chemical plant.  It has potential dangers, we use some deadly and explosive raw materials in the process.  However with engineering controls and worker competency we mitigate those hazards.  Our drive to work is likely our most dangerous task of the day.  Just writing this as a tribute before we go our own ways.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 08, 2021, 06:52:20 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on February 08, 2021, 02:06:36 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 08, 2021, 01:17:23 PM

We are all offered company sponsored health care in retirement if you work till 55. 

Wow, how good a plan & cost is that, And its all or nothing exactly at 55?  I could see that being some serious golden handcuffs at your point in the game and not hating work yet.

Our rules changed in 2012.  Under the old rules my eligibility for retirement was last August.  I can still get my pension without being penalized if I quit now.  For the healthcare I must reach 55.  The age 55 rule also becomes available to me in January of 2023 although my birthday is in June.  Current retiree healthcare is about $850 a month for my wife and I.  It's great to have the option to leave if we choose.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 09, 2021, 08:13:42 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 08, 2021, 06:42:38 PM

By the way I'm not hating on the younger generation that will take our jobs.  They are very different and will do things their way.  If anything, I'm only jealous of their youth and vitality.  I will greatly miss our work relationship.  I'm only a recreational scuba diver and work in a land based chemical plant.  It has potential dangers, we use some deadly and explosive raw materials in the process.  However with engineering controls and worker competency we mitigate those hazards.  Our drive to work is likely our most dangerous task of the day.  Just writing this as a tribute before we go our own ways.

Once in a while I run into people who say young people don't want to work.  Then I go into most any gas station and talk to the young attendant.  These folks often are working more than one job.  I'll bet they'll find people to do the job fine and the job will be most appreciated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 09, 2021, 09:20:48 AM

Quote from: pecunia on February 09, 2021, 08:13:42 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 08, 2021, 06:42:38 PM

By the way I'm not hating on the younger generation that will take our jobs.  They are very different and will do things their way.  If anything, I'm only jealous of their youth and vitality.  I will greatly miss our work relationship.  I'm only a recreational scuba diver and work in a land based chemical plant.  It has potential dangers, we use some deadly and explosive raw materials in the process.  However with engineering controls and worker competency we mitigate those hazards.  Our drive to work is likely our most dangerous task of the day.  Just writing this as a tribute before we go our own ways.

Once in a while I run into people who say young people don't want to work.  Then I go into most any gas station and talk to the young attendant.  These folks often are working more than one job.  I'll bet they'll find people to do the job fine and the job will be most appreciated.

I tend to agree with you. Like any generation you have the workers and the lazies. I know alot of younger people that are killing it and worked as hard if not harder and smarter than I did. Technology is what makes alot of things appear as they do plus dual income is more the normal than at least I was growing up. Now add to that the shift of working at home.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 12, 2021, 02:23:55 PM

While its nice to see the portfolio rise , there are so many components of the market that are just baffling to me. And more each day. Like a 2.5$ stock trading 2.5 Billion shares a day. A Stock like Tesla having a market cap bigger than GM
Ford
BMW
Toyota
Honda
Daimler
Ferrari
Nissan
Subaru
Lyft
Autozone
Harley-Davidson
Volkswagen
O’Reilly Automotive
Mazda
Kia Motors
Aston Martin Combined?! WTH

Add to that-

Sustainability?

% of Total Profits Coming from the Largest 100 Companies*

2020: 90%
2017: 84%
1997: 52%
1977: 48%

*U.S. publicly traded corporations, Wall St. Journal data.

Crazy shit!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 12, 2021, 04:06:44 PM

I agree its nuts.

But I guess thats what the market does from time to time and there is no rational explanation.

In retirement I was running at about 72/28 (stocks/bands and cash)... I should probably get a little more conservative perhaps.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on February 12, 2021, 04:41:29 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 06, 2021, 04:05:44 PM

I was at 67/33 so instead of rebalancing I took out about my next 6 months of withdrawals out for the year. If it keeps running I wont be taking out and if it drops to a buyable spot I have extra cash to buy back. There is now 4 Trillion on the sidelines and more stimulus coming and great earnings reported so one would think though bumpy we could , maybe, perhaps, but who knows see some more upside...

@soccerluvof4
do you mind if I ask a few details about this transaction?  I'm new to drawing down instead of saving and I haven't figured out my strategy yet.  When you took 6 months of withdrawals out, did you remove from the account?  or simply put into a cash or money market?  Was this from a 401K or taxable account?  Thanks for your help.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 12, 2021, 04:44:31 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 12, 2021, 02:23:55 PM

While its nice to see the portfolio rise , there are so many components of the market that are just baffling to me. And more each day. Like a 2.5$ stock trading 2.5 Billion shares a day. A Stock like Tesla having a market cap bigger than GM
Ford
BMW
Toyota
Honda
Daimler
Ferrari
Nissan
Subaru
Lyft
Autozone
Harley-Davidson
Volkswagen
O’Reilly Automotive
Mazda
Kia Motors
Aston Martin Combined?! WTH

Add to that-

Sustainability?

% of Total Profits Coming from the Largest 100 Companies*

2020: 90%
2017: 84%
1997: 52%
1977: 48%

*U.S. publicly traded corporations, Wall St. Journal data.

Crazy shit!

Thank index investing and a macro long term momentum trend amplified by millenials aging into the investors class.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 13, 2021, 03:13:44 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on February 12, 2021, 04:41:29 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 06, 2021, 04:05:44 PM

I was at 67/33 so instead of rebalancing I took out about my next 6 months of withdrawals out for the year. If it keeps running I wont be taking out and if it drops to a buyable spot I have extra cash to buy back. There is now 4 Trillion on the sidelines and more stimulus coming and great earnings reported so one would think though bumpy we could , maybe, perhaps, but who knows see some more upside...

@soccerluvof4
do you mind if I ask a few details about this transaction?  I'm new to drawing down instead of saving and I haven't figured out my strategy yet.  When you took 6 months of withdrawals out, did you remove from the account?  or simply put into a cash or money market?  Was this from a 401K or taxable account?  Thanks for your help.

Sold shares of VTI from my taxable account and put in Vanguards money market fund. Doesnt make much interest but I have other cash in CD's maturing etc.. So I will prioritize living off this money for now. I am also doing remodeling on my house so if the market waddles up I will be more ambitious about getting stuff done ahead of schedule as well

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 13, 2021, 03:24:53 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 12, 2021, 04:06:44 PM

I agree its nuts.

But I guess thats what the market does from time to time and there is no rational explanation.

In retirement I was running at about 72/28 (stocks/bands and cash)... I should probably get a little more conservative perhaps.

Yea , where all in different places in life with different demands, expenses, desires etc. and nobody knows what the market will do especially with all the cash on the sidelines and the appetite for stocks right now. In my position I would prefer to ere on the side of caution a bit but if i was younger I would just leave things as they were most likely. It just feels to me were at a point alot of people are trying to guess the top and also we need a correction and not that it needs to be extensive or Like last march but healthy and we can move higher. But who knows.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 13, 2021, 08:53:18 AM

We're up over $60,000 in net worth since the start of the year.   

Still boggles my mind.   That's ten years worth of living expenses back when my wife and I got married and we were poor.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 13, 2021, 12:27:40 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 13, 2021, 08:53:18 AM

We're up over $60,000 in net worth since the start of the year.   

Still boggles my mind.   That's ten years worth of living expenses back when my wife and I got married and we were poor.

It is crazy.  I made ~$7k from my ~20hr per week job over the past two weeks.  If you would have told me I'd have that work situation a couple decades ago I'd have been over the moon.

But yet that pay is a joke compared to the $170k my somewhat boring investments are up over those same 2 weeks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 13, 2021, 01:42:42 PM

"It IS Crazy."

All this extra money out there in the stock market.  All this money held by the banks and corporations doing little to nothing.  It does seem crazy.  I've been told it will generate inflation, but I don't know how.  It's not being spent on anything new so can't drive the price of anything up.  Guess I'll smile while it's happening and wait and see.  There's enough bad out there.  Maybe we are entitled to a little good like the share prices going up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 13, 2021, 06:45:26 PM

It all seems too.....fiat....or over the rainbow....just waiting for the person behind the curtain to rear its ugly side.  It can't go on this way, its not healthy.   Either markets must correct, inflation (or more likely stagflation) has to set in, or the overall inequality will result in an ever greater tense populous (afterall that's kind of been the progression of the last 10-15 years).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 13, 2021, 07:36:18 PM

I have made back the $50k that I funded my DAF with in Dec/Jan.  Mind boggles.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 13, 2021, 08:34:14 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 13, 2021, 06:45:26 PM

It all seems too.....fiat....or over the rainbow....just waiting for the person behind the curtain to rear its ugly side.  It can't go on this way, its not healthy.   Either markets must correct, inflation (or more likely stagflation) has to set in, or the overall inequality will result in an ever greater tense populous (afterall that's kind of been the progression of the last 10-15 years).

I think the inequality started earlier than that.

 "Inequality steadily increased from around 1979 to 2007, with a small reduction through 2016,[3][14][15] followed by an increase from 2016 to 2018.[16]"

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States

Yeh - it's been a good generation.  Maybe the masses are used to it by now and nothing will happen.  You figure Europe had serfs for a thousand years or so.  People were used to it.  Big income inequality.  Human nature doesn't change. 

You guys will eventually figure out the crazy money situation.  Please share it when you do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 14, 2021, 04:37:15 PM

Well shit.  Looks like I'm being forced to pull a 48+ hour shift due to an ice storm.   Going in just after midnight tonight and could be on till Wednesday morning.  Makes me consider hanging it up.  I'll miss it when I do.  Some of us feed off being essential.  I was a volunteer fireman at one point.  I'm not sure if that is what I want to return to.  Maybe join a SAR team once retired.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: chasesfish on February 15, 2021, 05:59:58 AM

Quote from: G-dog on February 08, 2021, 03:28:15 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on February 08, 2021, 02:06:36 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 08, 2021, 01:17:23 PM

We are all offered company sponsored health care in retirement if you work till 55. 

Wow, how good a plan & cost is that, And its all or nothing exactly at 55?  I could see that being some serious golden handcuffs at your point in the game and not hating work yet.

If I wasn’t hating my corporation and boss, I wouldn’t have retired early.  They sucked all the fun and enjoyment out of work with their stupid fuckery.

My co-workers were great (except a couple of them)

I felt a lot of this...and some of it you could replace corporation with industry.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LoanShark on February 15, 2021, 11:08:22 AM

Quote from: LoanShark on February 05, 2021, 10:59:39 AM

         Liquid / TNW
12/17 $391k / $911k
12/18 $485k / $1.15M
12/19 $979k / $1.54M
12/20 $1.35M / $1.93M

2/21 $1.55M / $2.14M

Joining this thread and looking forward to the journey to $4M...and Beyond with you guys & gals!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on February 16, 2021, 08:08:22 AM

I see big numbers pop up everywhere. Does anyone here feel any asset inflation? It seems to me that, these days, you should not even think about retirement if you don't have a networth of at least $5M.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LoanShark on February 16, 2021, 08:30:06 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on February 16, 2021, 08:08:22 AM

I see big numbers pop up everywhere. Does anyone here feel any asset inflation? It seems to me that, these days, you should not even think about retirement if you don't have a networth of at least $5M.

Totally dependent on what your lifestyle cost is; everyone doesn't need $200,000 of annual income in retirement to do what they want / need.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on February 16, 2021, 08:35:26 AM

Asset inflation is something I worry about.  But do I have any reason to think that the present is fundamentally different to any of the past bull runs?  Not really, and ERE has me fairly convinced that a SWR of 3-3.5% should be fairly safe. 

At 3% your $5m would give you $150k a year: well above what the vast majority of people live on.  Even at 2% it would give you $100k.  Even for a couple that feels very comfortable for the vast majority of people, I think? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 16, 2021, 11:12:51 AM

"It seems to me that, these days, you should not even think about retirement if you don't have a networth of at least $5M."

Inflation - My past ramblings have shown I think about that too.

The 4 percent rule tells us we're likely to be OK.  J L Collins has an article on his site where he tells us that when we buy into index funds (or other appropriate investments) that we are buying a piece of the American economy.  So, as the value of stuff becomes inflated, we should expect the value of our piece of the American economy to also rise. 

It seems to be happening.  As the government pumps more money into the economy which may cause inflation, we've seen stock prices rise.  Seems like a natural hedge against inflation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 03:46:29 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on February 16, 2021, 08:08:22 AM

I see big numbers pop up everywhere. Does anyone here feel any asset inflation? It seems to me that, these days, you should not even think about retirement if you don't have a networth of at least $5M.

I’m scared to retire at 46 on 2.7m NW. my 26 year old self is smacking me around left and right. Really, I can’t adjust and figure out life on this much money?? My mom lives on social security alone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 16, 2021, 04:27:12 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 03:46:29 PM

I’m scared to retire at 46 on 2.7m NW. my 26 year old self is smacking me around left and right. Really, I can’t adjust and figure out life on this much money?? My mom lives on social security alone.

Net worth is fairly useless for that decision.

What's your annual spend and how much income can your stash safely provide you each year?   Do you have a blend of uncorrelated assets?   Can you easily find a job doing "something" for awhile to take pressure off your stash?   

Those are the kinds of questions that make a difference in making a good decision.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 06:14:25 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 16, 2021, 04:27:12 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 03:46:29 PM

I’m scared to retire at 46 on 2.7m NW. my 26 year old self is smacking me around left and right. Really, I can’t adjust and figure out life on this much money?? My mom lives on social security alone.

Net worth is fairly useless for that decision.

What's your annual spend and how much income can your stash safely provide you each year?   Do you have a blend of uncorrelated assets?   Can you easily find a job doing "something" for awhile to take pressure off your stash?   

Those are the kinds of questions that make a difference in making a good decision.

Agreed. That’s why I do a cash flow analysis to see how retirement ready we are. NW is just a benchmark.

But to my point, surely we can cut expenses enough to live off cash flow funded by 2.7 million? It’s not like it’s all invested in antique arts or expensive cars ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on February 16, 2021, 06:43:51 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 06:14:25 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 16, 2021, 04:27:12 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 03:46:29 PM

I’m scared to retire at 46 on 2.7m NW. my 26 year old self is smacking me around left and right. Really, I can’t adjust and figure out life on this much money?? My mom lives on social security alone.

Net worth is fairly useless for that decision.

What's your annual spend and how much income can your stash safely provide you each year?   Do you have a blend of uncorrelated assets?   Can you easily find a job doing "something" for awhile to take pressure off your stash?   

Those are the kinds of questions that make a difference in making a good decision.

Agreed. That’s why I do a cash flow analysis to see how retirement ready we are. NW is just a benchmark.

But to my point, surely we can cut expenses enough to live off cash flow funded by 2.7 million? It’s not like it’s all invested in antique arts or expensive cars ;-)

redacted spam....

If you are scared now at 2.7, you will remain scared.  Just admit you follow the Suze Ormond "retirement" method, and not even 10M will be enough.  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 16, 2021, 08:45:13 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 06:14:25 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 16, 2021, 04:27:12 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 03:46:29 PM

I’m scared to retire at 46 on 2.7m NW. my 26 year old self is smacking me around left and right. Really, I can’t adjust and figure out life on this much money?? My mom lives on social security alone.

Net worth is fairly useless for that decision.

What's your annual spend and how much income can your stash safely provide you each year?   Do you have a blend of uncorrelated assets?   Can you easily find a job doing "something" for awhile to take pressure off your stash?   

Those are the kinds of questions that make a difference in making a good decision.

Agreed. That’s why I do a cash flow analysis to see how retirement ready we are. NW is just a benchmark.

But to my point, surely we can cut expenses enough to live off cash flow funded by 2.7 million? It’s not like it’s all invested in antique arts or expensive cars ;-)

Surely to Gawd you could!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 17, 2021, 05:38:29 AM

The problem with being wealthy.

I just away at work due to the artic weather event for over 50 hours.  I had the the same underwear, same socks, same everything on for 54 straight hours.  I just showered for the first time since Sunday night.   I'm a backpacker.  None if that bothers me really.  Anyway, I'll be paid over $3000 for that period of work.  I am still motivated making $3000 even though that only about 1/1000 of our net worth.  But, there lies the problem.  With that much money invested, just a slight move in the market can overpower even a nice paycheck.  The market went slightly down by percentage.  That caused my Mint account to show a daily loss greater than my future paycheck with overtime.  Crazy isn't it.  24 hours of straight time and over 26 hours of overtime evaporated from my accounts.  But, as we all know, there could be a far greater increase today or any given day.   Even this overtime packed week, I may not make much more money than our accounts make themselves. 
My tired brain is shutting down.  I'm in the bed finally.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on February 17, 2021, 06:36:16 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on February 16, 2021, 06:43:51 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 06:14:25 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 16, 2021, 04:27:12 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 03:46:29 PM

I’m scared to retire at 46 on 2.7m NW. my 26 year old self is smacking me around left and right. Really, I can’t adjust and figure out life on this much money?? My mom lives on social security alone.

Net worth is fairly useless for that decision.

What's your annual spend and how much income can your stash safely provide you each year?   Do you have a blend of uncorrelated assets?   Can you easily find a job doing "something" for awhile to take pressure off your stash?   

Those are the kinds of questions that make a difference in making a good decision.

Agreed. That’s why I do a cash flow analysis to see how retirement ready we are. NW is just a benchmark.

But to my point, surely we can cut expenses enough to live off cash flow funded by 2.7 million? It’s not like it’s all invested in antique arts or expensive cars ;-)

redacted spam....

If you are scared now at 2.7, you will remain scared.  Just admit you follow the Suze Ormond "retirement" method, and not even 10M will be enough.  :-)

We really have a cash flow problem over the next 8 years, which is when I hit 55. Not a NW problem. We only have 80k sitting in cash. Getting to any other money requires me breaking one of the eggs. My backup plan is to take my lump sum pension from a prior job and just take the tax hit, netting me an extra 170k after all taxes including penalty. Between that, my husband working and me getting a coast fire job that would get us through the next 8 years. Because I hate my big Corp job right now.

At 55 my deferred comp starts paying out so that’s why 55 is the magic number.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 17, 2021, 06:53:51 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 17, 2021, 06:36:16 AM

We really have a cash flow problem over the next 8 years, which is when I hit 55. Not a NW problem. We only have 80k sitting in cash. Getting to any other money requires me breaking one of the eggs. My backup plan is to take my lump sum pension from a prior job and just take the tax hit, netting me an extra 170k after all taxes including penalty. Between that, my husband working and me getting a coast fire job that would get us through the next 8 years. Because I hate my big Corp job right now.

At 55 my deferred comp starts paying out so that’s why 55 is the magic number.

Hmmm, I retired (without a pension) at age 54. DH likes his job and was working toward a sweet Defined Benefit Pension. We just figured out how to live on his income. We haven't had to tap any of our investments. It wasn't particularly difficult, and his pay is modest, by mustachian standards. Of course, that depends on having access to good health care through his employer and combined finances. Since your 'stache is pretty fat, if you could swing it on one income, you might be able to pull the trigger now. These last eight years have been such a gift!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on February 17, 2021, 06:59:14 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 17, 2021, 06:36:16 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on February 16, 2021, 06:43:51 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 06:14:25 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 16, 2021, 04:27:12 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 03:46:29 PM

I’m scared to retire at 46 on 2.7m NW. my 26 year old self is smacking me around left and right. Really, I can’t adjust and figure out life on this much money?? My mom lives on social security alone.

Net worth is fairly useless for that decision.

What's your annual spend and how much income can your stash safely provide you each year?   Do you have a blend of uncorrelated assets?   Can you easily find a job doing "something" for awhile to take pressure off your stash?   

Those are the kinds of questions that make a difference in making a good decision.

Agreed. That’s why I do a cash flow analysis to see how retirement ready we are. NW is just a benchmark.

But to my point, surely we can cut expenses enough to live off cash flow funded by 2.7 million? It’s not like it’s all invested in antique arts or expensive cars ;-)

redacted spam....

If you are scared now at 2.7, you will remain scared.  Just admit you follow the Suze Ormond "retirement" method, and not even 10M will be enough.  :-)

We really have a cash flow problem over the next 8 years, which is when I hit 55. Not a NW problem. We only have 80k sitting in cash. Getting to any other money requires me breaking one of the eggs. My backup plan is to take my lump sum pension from a prior job and just take the tax hit, netting me an extra 170k after all taxes including penalty. Between that, my husband working and me getting a coast fire job that would get us through the next 8 years. Because I hate my big Corp job right now.

At 55 my deferred comp starts paying out so that’s why 55 is the magic number.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Start doing Roth conversions and you can then access the money you convert after five years. Should make retiring at 52 easy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on February 17, 2021, 07:40:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 17, 2021, 06:36:16 AM

......... Getting to any other money requires me breaking one of the eggs. ......

You do realize that assets are there for breaking up into cash, right?
It has been hard for me to break into my taxable VTSAX to fund cash flow, but I've done it. 
I also do a SEPP 72(t).   Withdrawals are still about 3.5%. Paying 0 in federal taxes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on February 17, 2021, 07:47:38 AM

Quote from: jeroly on February 17, 2021, 06:59:14 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 17, 2021, 06:36:16 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on February 16, 2021, 06:43:51 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 06:14:25 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 16, 2021, 04:27:12 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 03:46:29 PM

I’m scared to retire at 46 on 2.7m NW. my 26 year old self is smacking me around left and right. Really, I can’t adjust and figure out life on this much money?? My mom lives on social security alone.

Net worth is fairly useless for that decision.

What's your annual spend and how much income can your stash safely provide you each year?   Do you have a blend of uncorrelated assets?   Can you easily find a job doing "something" for awhile to take pressure off your stash?   

Those are the kinds of questions that make a difference in making a good decision.

Agreed. That’s why I do a cash flow analysis to see how retirement ready we are. NW is just a benchmark.

But to my point, surely we can cut expenses enough to live off cash flow funded by 2.7 million? It’s not like it’s all invested in antique arts or expensive cars ;-)

redacted spam....

If you are scared now at 2.7, you will remain scared.  Just admit you follow the Suze Ormond "retirement" method, and not even 10M will be enough.  :-)

We really have a cash flow problem over the next 8 years, which is when I hit 55. Not a NW problem. We only have 80k sitting in cash. Getting to any other money requires me breaking one of the eggs. My backup plan is to take my lump sum pension from a prior job and just take the tax hit, netting me an extra 170k after all taxes including penalty. Between that, my husband working and me getting a coast fire job that would get us through the next 8 years. Because I hate my big Corp job right now.

At 55 my deferred comp starts paying out so that’s why 55 is the magic number.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Start doing Roth conversions and you can then access the money you convert after five years. Should make retiring at 52 easy.

Can probably split an IRA in two, do a SEPP on one and Roth conversions on the other and make it work even earlier than 52.  Probably even workable now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on February 17, 2021, 08:02:56 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 12, 2021, 02:23:55 PM

While its nice to see the portfolio rise , there are so many components of the market that are just baffling to me. And more each day. Like a 2.5$ stock trading 2.5 Billion shares a day. A Stock like Tesla having a market cap bigger than GM
Ford
BMW.....
.
.
.
Crazy shit!

I have been following this stock (though not buying any except in index funds) and Tesla is so high AFAIK due to much more than their cars.  Tesla is also building powerwall units, Tesla roofs, and it looks like they may be expanding into Tesla home heating & air systems (using modular versions of technology built for their cars).  And Musk's Boring Company is building tunnels to be used only by electric cars (of which Tesla is the big name).  They are working on getting regulatory approval to build a tunnel from Baltimore to DC for electrics only.  If they can do that demand for Tesla cars are going to go through the roof around here.

I'm not saying to buy this stock, but I am starting to think it may not be as overvalued as it seems to be.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on February 17, 2021, 10:08:35 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 17, 2021, 06:36:16 AM

We really have a cash flow problem over the next 8 years, which is when I hit 55. Not a NW problem. We only have 80k sitting in cash.

Presumably you/your partner have reasonably high incomes?   Why not just divert savings into taxable brokerage for a bit?  Then do Roth conversion ladder, 72ts or even take a bit of a tax hit on early withdrawals.  You have a planning problem, not a money problem. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: honeyfill on February 17, 2021, 10:39:26 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on February 17, 2021, 08:02:56 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 12, 2021, 02:23:55 PM

While its nice to see the portfolio rise , there are so many components of the market that are just baffling to me. And more each day. Like a 2.5$ stock trading 2.5 Billion shares a day. A Stock like Tesla having a market cap bigger than GM
Ford
BMW.....
.
.
.
Crazy shit!

I have been following this stock (though not buying any except in index funds) and Tesla is so high AFAIK due to much more than their cars.  Tesla is also building powerwall units, Tesla roofs, and it looks like they may be expanding into Tesla home heating & air systems (using modular versions of technology built for their cars).  And Musk's Boring Company is building tunnels to be used only by electric cars (of which Tesla is the big name).  They are working on getting regulatory approval to build a tunnel from Baltimore to DC for electrics only.  If they can do that demand for Tesla cars are going to go through the roof around here.

I'm not saying to buy this stock, but I am starting to think it may not be as overvalued as it seems to be.

Don't forget that Musk is also planning to mine the asteroids.  One asteroid can have a trillion dollars worth of gold, platinum and other minerals. 😉

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 17, 2021, 02:09:06 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 17, 2021, 06:36:16 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on February 16, 2021, 06:43:51 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 06:14:25 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 16, 2021, 04:27:12 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 16, 2021, 03:46:29 PM

I’m scared to retire at 46 on 2.7m NW. my 26 year old self is smacking me around left and right. Really, I can’t adjust and figure out life on this much money?? My mom lives on social security alone.

Net worth is fairly useless for that decision.

What's your annual spend and how much income can your stash safely provide you each year?   Do you have a blend of uncorrelated assets?   Can you easily find a job doing "something" for awhile to take pressure off your stash?   

Those are the kinds of questions that make a difference in making a good decision.

Agreed. That’s why I do a cash flow analysis to see how retirement ready we are. NW is just a benchmark.

But to my point, surely we can cut expenses enough to live off cash flow funded by 2.7 million? It’s not like it’s all invested in antique arts or expensive cars ;-)

redacted spam....

If you are scared now at 2.7, you will remain scared.  Just admit you follow the Suze Ormond "retirement" method, and not even 10M will be enough.  :-)

We really have a cash flow problem over the next 8 years, which is when I hit 55. Not a NW problem. We only have 80k sitting in cash. Getting to any other money requires me breaking one of the eggs. My backup plan is to take my lump sum pension from a prior job and just take the tax hit, netting me an extra 170k after all taxes including penalty. Between that, my husband working and me getting a coast fire job that would get us through the next 8 years. Because I hate my big Corp job right now.

At 55 my deferred comp starts paying out so that’s why 55 is the magic number.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For me all the pieces fall into the right places at 55.  Hope to be at 3.5M by then.  It's 862 days.  I've never enjoyed work better than I do now.  Part of that is FU money.  Part is seeing the hard end date and no more moving of the goal posts.  Part of it's like a graduation, getting the benefits I've worked for.  A major portion is Covid changes.  The past year things became much more streamlined and practical.   The corporate bullshit has been greatly reduced and we just focus on the job.  I come to really appreciate the quality of some of the people I work with.  Now my quest will be to replicate a community of peers that I spend my retirement with. I really don't like most people.  I like almost everyone in this thread.  You are all get shit done sucessful people. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on February 17, 2021, 04:12:29 PM

Quote from: lhamo on February 17, 2021, 10:08:35 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 17, 2021, 06:36:16 AM

We really have a cash flow problem over the next 8 years, which is when I hit 55. Not a NW problem. We only have 80k sitting in cash.

Presumably you/your partner have reasonably high incomes?   Why not just divert savings into taxable brokerage for a bit?  Then do Roth conversion ladder, 72ts or even take a bit of a tax hit on early withdrawals.  You have a planning problem, not a money problem.

Def a planning prob. I analyzed many ways to tap our nest egg. All have been suggested here. I guess for now Ive settled on working crappy job as long as I can between now and 50 and save as much after tax money as I can. And I’ll decide once the crappy ride is over the best way at that point to tap our eggs.

Cause once I leave this job I think my high income, big bonus days are over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 18, 2021, 03:20:21 AM

I was reading the thread on loneliness after geoarbitrage elsewhere in this forum. I just feel glad that I can comfortably afford to stay where I am and that I don't have to move. After more than twenty years in the same house, we have finally fixed all the main problems. Our house is manageably sized. I like my neighbors and the neighborhood in general. I have absolutely no desire to move to a warmer climate. I don't need to live on a waterfront property. A big airport (Newark) is just half an hour's drive away. Medical care is good and we have three large hospitals nearby. ACA options are pretty good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 18, 2021, 07:37:21 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 18, 2021, 03:20:21 AM

I was reading the thread on loneliness after geoarbitrage elsewhere in this forum. I just feel glad that I can comfortably afford to stay where I am and that I don't have to move. After more than twenty years in the same house, we have finally fixed all the main problems. Our house is manageably sized. I like my neighbors and the neighborhood in general. I have absolutely no desire to move to a warmer climate. I don't need to live on a waterfront property. A big airport (Newark) is just half an hour's drive away. Medical care is good and we have three large hospitals nearby. ACA options are pretty good.

I'm a bit more rural but feel much the same way.  And though Jan thru Mar is tough for me in PA (Originally a Southerner), the other 9 months of the year I consider amazing and enjoy the seasons (I've lived in plenty of places so hot & humid I couldn't stand to be outside July & August, which really sucks with kids off of school then).  To get a more constant nice climate we'd lose the seasons and prob have to leave the East Coast, where we just have to the leave too many friends & family we dont want to be that far from.  And its really really hard to put a price on good neighbors and a safe neighborhood.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 19, 2021, 03:17:40 AM

Quote from: honeyfill on February 17, 2021, 10:39:26 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on February 17, 2021, 08:02:56 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 12, 2021, 02:23:55 PM

While its nice to see the portfolio rise , there are so many components of the market that are just baffling to me. And more each day. Like a 2.5$ stock trading 2.5 Billion shares a day. A Stock like Tesla having a market cap bigger than GM
Ford
BMW.....
.
.
.
Crazy shit!

I have been following this stock (though not buying any except in index funds) and Tesla is so high AFAIK due to much more than their cars.  Tesla is also building powerwall units, Tesla roofs, and it looks like they may be expanding into Tesla home heating & air systems (using modular versions of technology built for their cars).  And Musk's Boring Company is building tunnels to be used only by electric cars (of which Tesla is the big name).  They are working on getting regulatory approval to build a tunnel from Baltimore to DC for electrics only.  If they can do that demand for Tesla cars are going to go through the roof around here.

I'm not saying to buy this stock, but I am starting to think it may not be as overvalued as it seems to be.

Don't forget that Musk is also planning to mine the asteroids.  One asteroid can have a trillion dollars worth of gold, platinum and other minerals. 😉

I am of the opinion Tesla is just a crazy Cult stock. Its ranked 16 out of 32 auto manufactures in customer satisfaction by consumer reports. Add to that every company on the planet now is going to be building EV's that's going to hurt. What happened in Texas this week also showed that one charge for a Tesla would have cost 900$(Obviously a Texas Problem but still). There on board computer system unlike other cars when there is an issue you cant drive the car and the just recalled 150k cars. I am not a bear of Tesla but if I was a stock trader even though up till late shorts got killed,  I would be shorting it vs buying it. I think Elon will go down as a great Idealist and innovator but unless he focuses on a smaller amount of things, he might (not saying for sure) a lot of problems ahead. There is nothing that makes sense about the stock and while that can be said about a lot of stocks this one stands out to me the most. I luv the guy he is entertaining and is off the wall but again that to makes me stay away from it separate as you say the ownership in my index funds.

Tesla likes Bitcoin vs. cash, but what about vs. CapEx? – At the Open

Elon Musk “essentially” went long Bitcoin and short Tesla when he invested $1.5B of his company’s cash in the cryptocurrency, analysts at DataTrek Research postulated this week.

The Tesla founder came out on Twitter last night playing down the idea he’s a crypto evangelist, but asserting that Bitcoin is “simply a less dumb form of liquidity than cash.”

Bitcoin (BTC-USD) is hitting new all-time highs this morning and currently up to nearly $52.7K. Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) is up 1% in premarket trading.

But while Musk favors Bitcoin over the greenback, is the $1.5B investment also an indication it’s favorable to investing more to make electric vehicles?

DataTrek looked at the move from three perspectives using standard corporate finance theory (referring to Bitcoin throughout at “B” to avoid a big span filter trap, they say).

First is reinvestment rates and whether Bitcoin has a higher rate of return than selling more cars.

“After all, $1.5 bn is enough to build the better part of a new EV assembly plant,” they write.

DataTrek acknowledges that with $19.4B at the end of 2020 that may not be a problem, but "car companies burn a lot of cash during downturns. That did not happen in 2020 because of some unique factors, but it could happen in the future. In fact, I can guarantee you it will.”

Second, a conglomerate is unnecessary as investors can replicate those investments themselves and markets won’t pay a premium if sub-par businesses eat up free cash flow.

Any “Tesla shareholder who wanted to own 'B' could have created that 2-security portfolio without Musk buying the asset for the company. His decision therefore adds no value on its own to TSLA’s shares.”

The third aspect, more positive, is that Musk needs to keep his visionary story in high gear. He “is very plugged in to the highest echelons of the global financial system” and doesn’t have the luxury of missing Big Tech like Warren Buffett or handing the reins to someone, as happened at Google.

“Sure, he could have kept TSLA’s treasury cash in, well, 'cash'. But that does nothing for his brand, and that’s the most important thing to the stock’s valuation.”

The final takeaways from DataTrek are that TSLA is 1.8% of the S&P 500, so its capital allocation means more to the index than JPMorgan Chase (NYSE:JPM), 1.3%, or Disney (NYSE:DIS), 1%.

And when “a company signals the compounding machine is full (i.e., can’t use all its cash), valuations usually suffer.”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on February 19, 2021, 07:47:33 AM

The thing is I think Tesla is aiming to be a power company, a transportation company, and an exploration company. If you had a solar roof and a power wall on Texas to go with your Tesla, you were fine during the storm. No one reported on that though because it wasn’t cool news.

We found out during our power outage for a day that having redundancies and overlap is a good thing. Being rich during a power outage is certainly easier than being poor. We didn’t fly to Cancun or anything, but we had gas/electric/solar/propane options available to us. Other neighbors needed support. Heck, we used our Tesla as a movie theater that night and it was cozy warm.

I don’t know that the current valuation is supported (and we only have 1/4 of our prior position), but it’s not just cars. I can also tell you that the 3 year old Tesla still seems light years ahead of the 3 year old Pathfinder because it keeps getting updates just like an Apple phone. With a solar roof, you have your own power plant, to power your transportation. Is that worth a 30K-40K cost now? It’s like getting a fixed rate mortgage as an inflation hedge against future power price increase. Somewhere like CA I think it makes a ton of sense. Alaska, not so much.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 19, 2021, 07:59:42 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on February 19, 2021, 03:17:40 AM

I am of the opinion Tesla is just a crazy Cult stock.


I think Elon will go down as a great Idealist and innovator but unless he focuses on a smaller amount of things, he might (not saying for sure) a lot of problems ahead.


Tesla likes Bitcoin vs. cash, but what about vs. CapEx? – At the Open

100% its a crazy cult .  Valuation makes no sense but wouldn't bet against it.   as said before thank the combo of indexing with mass momentum investing with millenials aging into the investment class. 

Not to mention i hate that it gets a green pass bc the awfulness of mining lithium (not just tesla i know but other users aren't green companies) but it occurs in isolated impoverished areas so nobody cares. And then will there be enough lithium to meet these EV growth expectations
 
 

I like that Musk is crazy and all over the place.  He is using his capital and other private capital (augmented with tax credits) to do some innovative crap, no different than other wealthy people of the past...whether hospitals, museums, whatever....vast wealth has in the past resulted in things for the greater good.   Just not in my investing zone in big way

Bitcoin is only like 0.2% of its market cap, not a big deal especially seeing that its up so much in such short order. Bitcoin makes no sense to me and has crazy inflatedike Tesla...again see comment above.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 19, 2021, 10:30:52 AM

Quote from: couponvan on February 19, 2021, 07:47:33 AM

The thing is I think Tesla is aiming to be a power company, a transportation company, and an exploration company. If you had a solar roof and a power wall on Texas to go with your Tesla, you were fine during the storm. No one reported on that though because it wasn’t cool news.

We found out during our power outage for a day that having redundancies and overlap is a good thing. Being rich during a power outage is certainly easier than being poor. We didn’t fly to Cancun or anything, but we had gas/electric/solar/propane options available to us. Other neighbors needed support. Heck, we used our Tesla as a movie theater that night and it was cozy warm.

I don’t know that the current valuation is supported (and we only have 1/4 of our prior position), but it’s not just cars. I can also tell you that the 3 year old Tesla still seems light years ahead of the 3 year old Pathfinder because it keeps getting updates just like an Apple phone. With a solar roof, you have your own power plant, to power your transportation. Is that worth a 30K-40K cost now? It’s like getting a fixed rate mortgage as an inflation hedge against future power price increase. Somewhere like CA I think it makes a ton of sense. Alaska, not so much.

One of the reasons I'm working a bit longer is because I want some cool energy independence systems.  I want solar panels, powerwalls and a Cybertruck.  I also want a 1000 gallon propane tank buried on-site that will run a generator for at least a week if needed.  I like my back-ups to have back-ups.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on February 20, 2021, 08:19:31 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2021, 10:30:52 AM

Quote from: couponvan on February 19, 2021, 07:47:33 AM

The thing is I think Tesla is aiming to be a power company, a transportation company, and an exploration company. If you had a solar roof and a power wall on Texas to go with your Tesla, you were fine during the storm. No one reported on that though because it wasn’t cool news.

We found out during our power outage for a day that having redundancies and overlap is a good thing. Being rich during a power outage is certainly easier than being poor. We didn’t fly to Cancun or anything, but we had gas/electric/solar/propane options available to us. Other neighbors needed support. Heck, we used our Tesla as a movie theater that night and it was cozy warm.

I don’t know that the current valuation is supported (and we only have 1/4 of our prior position), but it’s not just cars. I can also tell you that the 3 year old Tesla still seems light years ahead of the 3 year old Pathfinder because it keeps getting updates just like an Apple phone. With a solar roof, you have your own power plant, to power your transportation. Is that worth a 30K-40K cost now? It’s like getting a fixed rate mortgage as an inflation hedge against future power price increase. Somewhere like CA I think it makes a ton of sense. Alaska, not so much.

One of the reasons I'm working a bit longer is because I want some cool energy independence systems.  I want solar panels, powerwalls and a Cybertruck.  I also want a 1000 gallon propane tank buried on-site that will run a generator for at least a week if needed.  I like my back-ups to have back-ups.

We live in a somewhat rural area and rely less on city services than, say, condominium residents.  We have a generator, swimming pool, and lots of fruit trees.  And wine in the wine cellar and plenty of food in the cupboard.  We use our wood burning stove for heat most of the time anyway, and have a propane furnace and an electric one.   We're on solar, but it feeds back into the grid.   If the grid were off line, we wouldn't have power, but we could make a phone call on our landline, heat the house and cook on the bbq (also propane).  Since we're farm owners, we also have plenty of things like chain saws,  backhoes/skip loaders, 4wd rovers, etc.     We could easily survive days or even weeks if necessary.   Our risk would be wildfires.   We also have a pump that could drain the pool.   The biggest flaw with all these resources is that they aren't standing by ready to go.  If speed was crucial, we'd fail the test.   The generator lives on our farm, a few miles from our home.  I wouldn't even know where to look for the water pump, it's around here somewhere.    I try to also keep some ready cash, filled medical prescriptions and gas in the cars and trucks. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 20, 2021, 11:35:28 AM

We've survived multiple natural disasters.  Being younger, affluent and somewhat of a preppers helped us to overcome the suck. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on February 22, 2021, 08:55:31 AM

When there comes the next winter storm and I am retired, I will just fly to Cancun for a week of sunshine. Why fight the nature when yo are flexible?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 22, 2021, 08:58:48 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on February 22, 2021, 08:55:31 AM

When there comes the next winter storm and I am retired, I will just fly to Cancun for a week of sunshine. Why fight the nature when yo are flexible?

As long as you don't hold a position of trust and responsibility you're shirking when you go, I think it's an excellent idea!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 22, 2021, 01:25:11 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on February 22, 2021, 08:55:31 AM

When there comes the next winter storm and I am retired, I will just fly to Cancun for a week of sunshine. Why fight the nature when yo are flexible?

Probably a lot cheaper to fly to Canun than to pay the power bill for the power you don't have! After you drain down all the pipes in your house beforehand of course.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on February 22, 2021, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 22, 2021, 01:25:11 PM

Probably a lot cheaper to fly to Canun than to pay the power bill for the power you don't have! After you drain down all the pipes in your house beforehand of course.

Oh yeah.  Long ago (maybe 20 years?) I planned to visit my grandmother for two weeks and set everything down to minimum when I left.  A bad cold snap hit for those two weeks.  When I got my power bill (I used heat pump) that covered that time, I estimated the cost of driving (gas & wear and tear on the car) was less than if stayed home those two weeks and didn't go anywhere and paid for extra utilities.  Hopefully I can make this a common saving technique (snowbird-ing) when I retire.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 22, 2021, 02:43:37 PM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on February 22, 2021, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 22, 2021, 01:25:11 PM

Probably a lot cheaper to fly to Canun than to pay the power bill for the power you don't have! After you drain down all the pipes in your house beforehand of course.

Oh yeah.  Long ago (maybe 20 years?) I planned to visit my grandmother for two weeks and set everything down to minimum when I left.  A bad cold snap hit for those two weeks.  When I got my power bill (I used heat pump) that covered that time, I estimated the cost of driving (gas & wear and tear on the car) was less than if stayed home those two weeks and didn't go anywhere and paid for extra utilities.  Hopefully I can make this a common saving technique (snowbird-ing) when I retire.

I just read about one Vietnam Vet in TX that just got a bill for $16,000 for power that he barely used, and barely worked during the cold snap!

My cheapo generator would have been thrashed mercilessly if they jacked up my rates that high... $9 per KWhr!!!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on February 22, 2021, 06:33:01 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 22, 2021, 02:43:37 PM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on February 22, 2021, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 22, 2021, 01:25:11 PM

Probably a lot cheaper to fly to Canun than to pay the power bill for the power you don't have! After you drain down all the pipes in your house beforehand of course.

Oh yeah.  Long ago (maybe 20 years?) I planned to visit my grandmother for two weeks and set everything down to minimum when I left.  A bad cold snap hit for those two weeks.  When I got my power bill (I used heat pump) that covered that time, I estimated the cost of driving (gas & wear and tear on the car) was less than if stayed home those two weeks and didn't go anywhere and paid for extra utilities.  Hopefully I can make this a common saving technique (snowbird-ing) when I retire.

I just read about one Vietnam Vet in TX that just got a bill for $16,000 for power that he barely used, and barely worked during the cold snap!

My cheapo generator would have been thrashed mercilessly if they jacked up my rates that high... $9 per KWhr!!!!

I heard about that, also. $9 a KWhr is crazy.  I guess there was no cap on potential charges.  Can you imagine the shock of opening up a bill like that?   It's all the worse for not knowing how much it might be, but knowing that it could be bad, and then finding that bad doesn't begin to cover it.   Those poor people. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 22, 2021, 07:02:20 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on February 22, 2021, 06:33:01 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 22, 2021, 02:43:37 PM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on February 22, 2021, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 22, 2021, 01:25:11 PM

Probably a lot cheaper to fly to Canun than to pay the power bill for the power you don't have! After you drain down all the pipes in your house beforehand of course.

Oh yeah.  Long ago (maybe 20 years?) I planned to visit my grandmother for two weeks and set everything down to minimum when I left.  A bad cold snap hit for those two weeks.  When I got my power bill (I used heat pump) that covered that time, I estimated the cost of driving (gas & wear and tear on the car) was less than if stayed home those two weeks and didn't go anywhere and paid for extra utilities.  Hopefully I can make this a common saving technique (snowbird-ing) when I retire.

I just read about one Vietnam Vet in TX that just got a bill for $16,000 for power that he barely used, and barely worked during the cold snap!

My cheapo generator would have been thrashed mercilessly if they jacked up my rates that high... $9 per KWhr!!!!

I heard about that, also. $9 a KWhr is crazy.  I guess there was no cap on potential charges.  Can you imagine the shock of opening up a bill like that?   It's all the worse for not knowing how much it might be, but knowing that it could be bad, and then finding that bad doesn't begin to cover it.   Those poor people.

On social media, the same folks I've seen defend Trump seem to think that those folks deserve what they got, after all, they signed the contract.   No empathy.   No caring.    Just dog eat dog, screw'em all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 22, 2021, 09:18:25 PM

People love the free market until it works against them. I read that the people on the variable rate got 5 cent/kWh residential electricity, which is basically industrial rate power in the Pacific Northwest, one of the areas with the lowest electricity costs in the country. They weren’t complaining then. But now that they experience a high marginal rate @ 180x the cost, they see their insane bills and are shocked. It’s basically newbies playing the commodity market and getting burned. I sympathize, but my sympathy only goes so far.  $16,000 is ridiculous, but maybe $1,600 would be enough to force them to re-think which plan to sign up for.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 22, 2021, 09:27:40 PM

The basic problem is that most people have zero idea that this could happen.   It's so outside their experience that they are blindsided by it.     You don't know what you don't know.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 22, 2021, 09:45:58 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 22, 2021, 09:27:40 PM

The basic problem is that most people have zero idea that this could happen.   It's so outside their experience that they are blindsided by it.     You don't know what you don't know.

Exactly.. And hey.. At least its not Socialism right?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 22, 2021, 10:02:34 PM

Glad I'll be living in Florida. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on February 23, 2021, 12:36:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 22, 2021, 10:02:34 PM

Glad I'll be living in Florida.

It gets cold in Florida too, remember the Challenger Disaster.   below freezing at 28.0 to 28.9 °F (−2.2 to −1.7 °C)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 23, 2021, 06:00:02 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on February 23, 2021, 12:36:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 22, 2021, 10:02:34 PM

Glad I'll be living in Florida.

It gets cold in Florida too, remember the Challenger Disaster.   below freezing at 28.0 to 28.9 °F (−2.2 to −1.7 °C)

It was 27 at our Florida house recently.  Felt great.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 23, 2021, 07:21:57 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on February 23, 2021, 12:36:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 22, 2021, 10:02:34 PM

Glad I'll be living in Florida.

It gets cold in Florida too, remember the Challenger Disaster.   below freezing at 28.0 to 28.9 °F (−2.2 to −1.7 °C)

I was teaching a class in Miami in December years ago.   It got cold enough I turned on the heater in the hotel room.

Big mistake.  Those dust bunnies in the heating system started stinking to high heaven so I turned off the heater.

Then it set off the fire alarm in the entire wing of the hotel.   Everyone had to evacuate.

Mum's the word...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 23, 2021, 07:58:22 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 23, 2021, 07:21:57 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on February 23, 2021, 12:36:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 22, 2021, 10:02:34 PM

Glad I'll be living in Florida.

It gets cold in Florida too, remember the Challenger Disaster.   below freezing at 28.0 to 28.9 °F (−2.2 to −1.7 °C)

I was teaching a class in Miami in December years ago.   It got cold enough I turned on the heater in the hotel room.

Big mistake.  Those dust bunnies in the heating system started stinking to high heaven so I turned off the heater.

Then it set off the fire alarm in the entire wing of the hotel.   Everyone had to evacuate.

Mum's the word...

I've installed mini split heat pumps in our Florida home.  The coils are never really that hot.  If using induction heat it's basically a toaster with a fan.  That dust, human hair, pet dander and insect nest burning smell is horrible.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 23, 2021, 10:52:20 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 22, 2021, 07:02:20 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on February 22, 2021, 06:33:01 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 22, 2021, 02:43:37 PM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on February 22, 2021, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 22, 2021, 01:25:11 PM

Probably a lot cheaper to fly to Canun than to pay the power bill for the power you don't have! After you drain down all the pipes in your house beforehand of course.

Oh yeah.  Long ago (maybe 20 years?) I planned to visit my grandmother for two weeks and set everything down to minimum when I left.  A bad cold snap hit for those two weeks.  When I got my power bill (I used heat pump) that covered that time, I estimated the cost of driving (gas & wear and tear on the car) was less than if stayed home those two weeks and didn't go anywhere and paid for extra utilities.  Hopefully I can make this a common saving technique (snowbird-ing) when I retire.

I just read about one Vietnam Vet in TX that just got a bill for $16,000 for power that he barely used, and barely worked during the cold snap!

My cheapo generator would have been thrashed mercilessly if they jacked up my rates that high... $9 per KWhr!!!!

I heard about that, also. $9 a KWhr is crazy.  I guess there was no cap on potential charges.  Can you imagine the shock of opening up a bill like that?   It's all the worse for not knowing how much it might be, but knowing that it could be bad, and then finding that bad doesn't begin to cover it.   Those poor people.

On social media, the same folks I've seen defend Trump seem to think that those folks deserve what they got, after all, they signed the contract.   No empathy.   No caring.    Just dog eat dog, screw'em all.

The main problem is that the utilities had to go buy natural gas on the spot market because they didn't lock in sufficient contracts for demand.   The futures contracts were before, during and now around $3+/- but the spot market skyrocketed to $300+ because of the immediate demand of a once in a 30-100 year event.  I believe in open markets but there is point where some protection from a significant adverse event occurs like when insurance companies reconcile for the year and then spread the difference over next years premiums so they don't collect up front but don't lose either.

On the other hand its almost exactly how the medical system works.....you know, nobody knows what anything costs or what's covered until you get a bill.   Could be $100 or $10,000. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 23, 2021, 05:09:45 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 23, 2021, 06:00:02 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on February 23, 2021, 12:36:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 22, 2021, 10:02:34 PM

Glad I'll be living in Florida.

It gets cold in Florida too, remember the Challenger Disaster.   below freezing at 28.0 to 28.9 °F (−2.2 to −1.7 °C)

It was 27 at our Florida house recently.  Felt great.

It was 82 inside my parents 3 season porch in Michigan today.  The cat decided it was too warm and went inside the house.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: begood on March 05, 2021, 05:04:38 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on January 29, 2021, 01:30:50 PM

Quote from: Laura33 on May 08, 2017, 08:00:20 AM

Quote from: begood on May 08, 2017, 05:23:11 AM

Dicey, if you don't mind my asking, how do you assign a value to your husband's defined benefit pension? My husband should get about $27K/year (flat,non-COLA'd, 50% joint survivor) starting in 13 years.

Well, you didn't ask me :-), but what I do is divide by .04, to figure how how much the "'stache-equivalent" amount is.  E.g., to take out $27K/yr at the 4% rule, I'd need $675K.  Now, that is the 'stache-equivalent in 13 years, when he is eligible for that $27K/yr.  So if you want the current value of that, you could present-value it back to today's dollars.  But personally, I don't care that much -- I just like to know that, hey, in 13 years, I will have the equivalent of $675K more in my 'stache. 

But actually, even that is bass-ackwards, because the whole point of the 'stache is to throw off income -- so when you already know the income, you don't even need to calculate an equivalent 'stache value.  So in your case, I'd just knock the $27K off of the annual income you need, and then figure out how much else you need to save to cover the delta.  E.g., I need $40K/yr, I have $27K/yr already guaranteed, so my delta is $13K/yr.  Ergo, 4% rule, I need $13K x 25 = $325K more in my 'stache in 13 years.

Here's a good quote from page 1 one the thread.   With the amazing gains that the stock market has seen, most of you must be soaring by the goals of several years ago.

I'm the original poster who asked the question about how to assign a value to a defined pension benefit. Now we only have nine more years to wait for it to kick in! Like many others here, our portfolio has grown nicely over the past four years, and that includes us taking out expected college tuition over the past four years and sticking it in a money market account for safekeeping. Our kid ended up taking a gap year (graduated from high school in the class of 2020 - oof), and there have been expenses related to that as well, but I've never regretted the opportunity cost of removing those funds from the market during the run-up. I sure would have hated to need them and not have them had the opposite been true.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 08:03:56 AM

How's everyone doing with the dip in the markets?

I'm down about 75K from the highpoint.  If we go lower I may buy a bit if ARRK.  It's still pricey.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 05, 2021, 08:29:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 08:03:56 AM

How's everyone doing with the dip in the markets?

I'm down about 75K from the highpoint.  If we go lower I may buy a bit if ARRK.  It's still pricey.

Looks like I'm down about 4% from the high.  Its really not until it hits about 8% from the high that I even consider it a 'dip' given how fast the markets fluctuate (though I totally agree that seems crazy when thinking about it on an absolute level, that the account dropping more than a year of living expenses is not even a an event....)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 05, 2021, 08:38:20 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 08:03:56 AM

How's everyone doing with the dip in the markets?

I'm down about 75K from the highpoint.  If we go lower I may buy a bit if ARRK.  It's still pricey.

Dip? What dip? I'm not paying any attention. I didn't increase any spending when the markets were running up and I'm not going to change my spending if it's going down. If things really take a dive, I'll move some of our dry powder into the market, but otherwise, it's business as usual at our house.

PS - It's nice to see some activity on this thread. It has been uncharacteristically quiet of late.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on March 05, 2021, 08:57:22 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 05, 2021, 08:38:20 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 08:03:56 AM

How's everyone doing with the dip in the markets?

I'm down about 75K from the highpoint.  If we go lower I may buy a bit if ARRK.  It's still pricey.

Dip? What dip? I'm not paying any attention. I didn't increase any spending when the markets were running up and I'm not going to change my spending if it's going down. If things really take a dive, I'll move some of our dry powder into the market, but otherwise, it's business as usual at our house.

PS - It's nice to see some activity on this thread. It has been uncharacteristically quiet of late.

Well, it’s a big jump from $2MM to $4MM. 

I watch market dips and jumps (but don’t change spending) but this strikes me as normal volatility so far. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on March 05, 2021, 09:10:45 AM

At least my 2.5 mortgage is winning! Will we ever move again???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 09:14:00 AM

I put a limit order on ARKK for $99 a share.  That's about another 10 percent drop.  If the Covid relief package is delayed I think we see a bigger drop in general coming.  Buying opportunity if so desired.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 09:16:27 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 05, 2021, 08:29:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 08:03:56 AM

How's everyone doing with the dip in the markets?

I'm down about 75K from the highpoint.  If we go lower I may buy a bit if ARRK.  It's still pricey.

Looks like I'm down about 4% from the high.  Its really not until it hits about 8% from the high that I even consider it a 'dip' given how fast the markets fluctuate (though I totally agree that seems crazy when thinking about it on an absolute level, that the account dropping more than a year of living expenses is not even a an event....)

Looks like about 3 percent for us.  Hope we see a bit more of a drop.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roland of Gilead on March 05, 2021, 09:45:30 AM

4% doesn't sound as bad as being down $160,000 I guess.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 05, 2021, 10:12:44 AM

A lot of our net worth is in rental real estate and a chunk of our stock/bond portfolio is in bonds.

A 1% change in the S&P 500 index a year ago was about a $10,000 change.  I guess it's more now that the index is higher but I haven't bothered to figure it out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 11:43:50 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 09:14:00 AM

I put a limit order on ARKK for $99 a share.  That's about another 10 percent drop.  If the Covid relief package is delayed I think we see a bigger drop in general coming.  Buying opportunity if so desired.

Well shit.  I should have bought when my finger was on the trigger.  ARKK shot up almost 10 percent since that bottom.  All that in the time it took for me to install a new bathroom heater.  I guess that's why I don't day trade.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on March 05, 2021, 12:19:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 11:43:50 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 09:14:00 AM

I put a limit order on ARKK for $99 a share.  That's about another 10 percent drop.  If the Covid relief package is delayed I think we see a bigger drop in general coming.  Buying opportunity if so desired.

Well shit.  I should have bought when my finger was on the trigger.  ARKK shot up almost 10 percent since that bottom.  All that in the time it took for me to install a new bathroom heater.  I guess that's why I don't day trade.

I bought 1 share of SCHB on market open.  (yah, big spender, eh?).  I simply add enough money to buy 1 more share after a buy, rather than leaving cash in there or ACHing it back to my checking account.

I think it maybe went up?  I don't know.  Not really tracking it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 05, 2021, 12:23:39 PM

Stock Markets actually look pretty flat for the past month.  Now if the Senate is to pass the next Covid bill it may drive more money in the system again bumping up the stock market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 05, 2021, 12:53:25 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 11:43:50 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 09:14:00 AM

I put a limit order on ARKK for $99 a share.  That's about another 10 percent drop.  If the Covid relief package is delayed I think we see a bigger drop in general coming.  Buying opportunity if so desired.

Well shit.  I should have bought when my finger was on the trigger.  ARKK shot up almost 10 percent since that bottom.  All that in the time it took for me to install a new bathroom heater.  I guess that's why I don't day trade.

Buy all you can & tell all your buddies to load up too.  I've been watching my shares crash day after, day after, day.....


It was a lot more fun to watch it climb.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 05, 2021, 01:45:22 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 05, 2021, 08:29:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 08:03:56 AM

How's everyone doing with the dip in the markets?

I'm down about 75K from the highpoint.  If we go lower I may buy a bit if ARRK.  It's still pricey.

Looks like I'm down about 4% from the high.  Its really not until it hits about 8% from the high that I even consider it a 'dip' given how fast the markets fluctuate (though I totally agree that seems crazy when thinking about it on an absolute level, that the account dropping more than a year of living expenses is not even a an event....)

Heh, it looks like in the 7 hours since I wrote this the market is halfway back now....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 12, 2021, 09:02:59 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 05, 2021, 01:45:22 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 05, 2021, 08:29:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 05, 2021, 08:03:56 AM

How's everyone doing with the dip in the markets?

I'm down about 75K from the highpoint.  If we go lower I may buy a bit if ARRK.  It's still pricey.

Looks like I'm down about 4% from the high.  Its really not until it hits about 8% from the high that I even consider it a 'dip' given how fast the markets fluctuate (though I totally agree that seems crazy when thinking about it on an absolute level, that the account dropping more than a year of living expenses is not even a an event....)

Heh, it looks like in the 7 hours since I wrote this the market is halfway back now....

Almost all the way back now from the little dip.  I'm getting more confidence daily that the economy will recover quickly.  The vaccine distribution is going well and we'll be on the beaches this summer.  We're not waiting that long.  Next weekend we'll leave the work camp in Louisiana and get back to our Florida utopia.  We're headed down to Fort Lauderdale for a wedding during that time.  Trying to get the beach body in shape after a year of quarantine.  I've put some miles in on my bicycle this week.  Unfortunately my planned off-road bike camping trip this weekend will be postponed.  I have to work Saturday and Sunday to cover a coworker who lost a family member.  Hopefully I'll get some local bike miles in today.  We have bikes in Florida and it is bicycle Mecca in our area.  The end of April we'll take another beach trip to Hilton Head, South Carolina.  We'll be bringing bikes there and should be able to park the car.   There is a ferry from Hilton Head to Savannah that we hope to take.  The trees are budding out here with Spring.  Glad to have 2020 behind and looking forward to a fabulous 2021.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 12, 2021, 06:42:08 PM

Looks to be back for a little while:

The Dow Jones Industrial Average climbed to a new high in today's stock market.

Uncle Sam is throwing money at the stock market.  Lots of money.  The money supply has been increased so much the government is ashamed to tell you what the money supply is.   Where does the money come from?  I think they are just printing it.

This could mean inflation. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 12, 2021, 07:23:23 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 12, 2021, 06:42:08 PM

Looks to be back for a little while:

The Dow Jones Industrial Average climbed to a new high in today's stock market.

Uncle Sam is throwing money at the stock market.  Lots of money.  The money supply has been increased so much the government is ashamed to tell you what the money supply is.   Where does the money come from?  I think they are just printing it.

This could mean inflation.

Printing money costs money.   It's cheaper to just have the Federal Reserve invent it out of thin air in digital form.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 12, 2021, 07:27:25 PM

We crested way over the $5m mark, selling stock that was held in a company stock account. It added another $300k or so of value to our net worth. Unsurprisingly, this gives me a lot less satisfaction that paying down what we owe (mortgage). I know this is unreasonable & illogical, yet debt causes me more emotional angst that our portfolio gains generate. We paid our mortgage down to the half way point today (facepunches graciously accepted). It's a bay area mortgage, so we've paid off just over $1.8m of house in a 4 years. Feeling good about that. Eventually, we'll recast our mortgage to a point that I'll feel comfortable quitting my job. I did the math today, and ... it's not far off. Now that, that feels "rich". The $5m of net worth, or the $1m+ of mortgage paid off? It doesn't feel the same. But, financial flexibility & the ability to do whatever I want in the future? That feels pretty rich.

(Sidenote: our kids have four years left of school, and after that, we'll be ditching the VHCOL house & moving somewhere cheaper. This is a plan that helps us get through the next 4-5 years.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 13, 2021, 04:29:33 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 12, 2021, 07:27:25 PM

We crested way over the $5m mark, selling stock that was held in a company stock account. It added another $300k or so of value to our net worth. Unsurprisingly, this gives me a lot less satisfaction that paying down what we owe (mortgage). I know this is unreasonable & illogical, yet debt causes me more emotional angst that our portfolio gains generate. We paid our mortgage down to the half way point today (facepunches graciously accepted). It's a bay area mortgage, so we've paid off just over $1.8m of house in a 4 years. Feeling good about that. Eventually, we'll recast our mortgage to a point that I'll feel comfortable quitting my job. I did the math today, and ... it's not far off. Now that, that feels "rich". The $5m of net worth, or the $1m+ of mortgage paid off? It doesn't feel the same. But, financial flexibility & the ability to do whatever I want in the future? That feels pretty rich.

(Sidenote: our kids have four years left of school, and after that, we'll be ditching the VHCOL house & moving somewhere cheaper. This is a plan that helps us get through the next 4-5 years.)

We have similar numbers in my household, except that we are a bit older, both in our 50s. We just crossed $5.6M in our invested net worth this week (IRA, 401k and after-tax).  I can understand that you want to stay where you are for continuity for your kids' school but it seems clear that you could retire right now if you wanted. I was curious as to why you are still working. Reading your journal, I have a hunch that either you or your husband is in a very similar line of work as I was.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 13, 2021, 04:44:40 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 12, 2021, 07:27:25 PM

We crested way over the $5m mark, selling stock that was held in a company stock account. It added another $300k or so of value to our net worth. Unsurprisingly, this gives me a lot less satisfaction that paying down what we owe (mortgage). I know this is unreasonable & illogical, yet debt causes me more emotional angst that our portfolio gains generate. We paid our mortgage down to the half way point today (facepunches graciously accepted). It's a bay area mortgage, so we've paid off just over $1.8m of house in a 4 years. Feeling good about that. Eventually, we'll recast our mortgage to a point that I'll feel comfortable quitting my job. I did the math today, and ... it's not far off. Now that, that feels "rich". The $5m of net worth, or the $1m+ of mortgage paid off? It doesn't feel the same. But, financial flexibility & the ability to do whatever I want in the future? That feels pretty rich.

(Sidenote: our kids have four years left of school, and after that, we'll be ditching the VHCOL house & moving somewhere cheaper. This is a plan that helps us get through the next 4-5 years.)

If you're ditching the house (and therefore the mortgage) in 4 years I don't think there's much reason for facepunch either way on your mortgage payoff decision (how you feel about it probably changes a lot anyway depending on whether we're talking the market today or the market in March of last year).  I enjoyed paying off my mortgage, but the house is probably only about 7% of my net worth so it just wasn't that significant a decision to make.  I think of it like a cash position in my portfolio that returns what the going mortgage rate is, and given how close I am to RE and how much I dislike bonds right now I think it makes sense given how much I already have in equities and how stomach churning last March already was.  Now If you were 28yo and 15 years from RE I'd facepunch you myself....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on March 13, 2021, 05:55:14 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 13, 2021, 04:29:33 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 12, 2021, 07:27:25 PM

We crested way over the $5m mark, selling stock that was held in a company stock account. It added another $300k or so of value to our net worth. Unsurprisingly, this gives me a lot less satisfaction that paying down what we owe (mortgage). I know this is unreasonable & illogical, yet debt causes me more emotional angst that our portfolio gains generate. We paid our mortgage down to the half way point today (facepunches graciously accepted). It's a bay area mortgage, so we've paid off just over $1.8m of house in a 4 years. Feeling good about that. Eventually, we'll recast our mortgage to a point that I'll feel comfortable quitting my job. I did the math today, and ... it's not far off. Now that, that feels "rich". The $5m of net worth, or the $1m+ of mortgage paid off? It doesn't feel the same. But, financial flexibility & the ability to do whatever I want in the future? That feels pretty rich.

(Sidenote: our kids have four years left of school, and after that, we'll be ditching the VHCOL house & moving somewhere cheaper. This is a plan that helps us get through the next 4-5 years.)

We have similar numbers in my household, except that we are a bit older, both in our 50s. We just crossed $5.6M in our invested net worth this week (IRA, 401k and after-tax).  I can understand that you want to stay where you are for continuity for your kids' school but it seems clear that you could retire right now if you wanted. I was curious as to why you are still working. Reading your journal, I have a hunch that either you or your husband is in a very similar line of work as I was.

Paying off the mortgage will have zero impact on your net worth. You will be reducing your assets and liabilities by the same amount. Either way, $5 million NW is enough to FIRE on quite comfortably.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 13, 2021, 07:46:35 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 13, 2021, 04:29:33 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 12, 2021, 07:27:25 PM

We crested way over the $5m mark, selling stock that was held in a company stock account. It added another $300k or so of value to our net worth. Unsurprisingly, this gives me a lot less satisfaction that paying down what we owe (mortgage). I know this is unreasonable & illogical, yet debt causes me more emotional angst that our portfolio gains generate. We paid our mortgage down to the half way point today (facepunches graciously accepted). It's a bay area mortgage, so we've paid off just over $1.8m of house in a 4 years. Feeling good about that. Eventually, we'll recast our mortgage to a point that I'll feel comfortable quitting my job. I did the math today, and ... it's not far off. Now that, that feels "rich". The $5m of net worth, or the $1m+ of mortgage paid off? It doesn't feel the same. But, financial flexibility & the ability to do whatever I want in the future? That feels pretty rich.

(Sidenote: our kids have four years left of school, and after that, we'll be ditching the VHCOL house & moving somewhere cheaper. This is a plan that helps us get through the next 4-5 years.)

We have similar numbers in my household, except that we are a bit older, both in our 50s. We just crossed $5.6M in our invested net worth this week (IRA, 401k and after-tax).  I can understand that you want to stay where you are for continuity for your kids' school but it seems clear that you could retire right now if you wanted. I was curious as to why you are still working. Reading your journal, I have a hunch that either you or your husband is in a very similar line of work as I was.

Very well done, @2sk22 . You are crushing it. I could FIRE right now, but I'll keep working until I have to go back to international travel (I'm guessing that will be required in ~1 year). We actually have quite a bit of our net worth tied up in retirement accounts ($2M), another paid off property (vacation house) & our house. So, it's more of a cash flow consideration that allows us to keep the rest of our investments as is, while we get our kids through high school. We could certainly make other choices.

We are both in tech. My role is much more specialized than my husband's.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 13, 2021, 07:48:51 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 13, 2021, 04:44:40 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 12, 2021, 07:27:25 PM

We crested way over the $5m mark, selling stock that was held in a company stock account. It added another $300k or so of value to our net worth. Unsurprisingly, this gives me a lot less satisfaction that paying down what we owe (mortgage). I know this is unreasonable & illogical, yet debt causes me more emotional angst that our portfolio gains generate. We paid our mortgage down to the half way point today (facepunches graciously accepted). It's a bay area mortgage, so we've paid off just over $1.8m of house in a 4 years. Feeling good about that. Eventually, we'll recast our mortgage to a point that I'll feel comfortable quitting my job. I did the math today, and ... it's not far off. Now that, that feels "rich". The $5m of net worth, or the $1m+ of mortgage paid off? It doesn't feel the same. But, financial flexibility & the ability to do whatever I want in the future? That feels pretty rich.

(Sidenote: our kids have four years left of school, and after that, we'll be ditching the VHCOL house & moving somewhere cheaper. This is a plan that helps us get through the next 4-5 years.)

If you're ditching the house (and therefore the mortgage) in 4 years I don't think there's much reason for facepunch either way on your mortgage payoff decision (how you feel about it probably changes a lot anyway depending on whether we're talking the market today or the market in March of last year).  I enjoyed paying off my mortgage, but the house is probably only about 7% of my net worth so it just wasn't that significant a decision to make.  I think of it like a cash position in my portfolio that returns what the going mortgage rate is, and given how close I am to RE and how much I dislike bonds right now I think it makes sense given how much I already have in equities and how stomach churning last March already was.  Now If you were 28yo and 15 years from RE I'd facepunch you myself....

:-) Fair enough. We're still really on the fence on where we'll move in four years, but we don't need to live in this VHCOL. We'll see how fire season & climate change impacts the temperature, but we also need to start looking around in other areas around California. That's our post kids out of the house plan.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 13, 2021, 07:49:59 AM

Quote from: jeroly on March 13, 2021, 05:55:14 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 13, 2021, 04:29:33 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 12, 2021, 07:27:25 PM

We crested way over the $5m mark, selling stock that was held in a company stock account. It added another $300k or so of value to our net worth. Unsurprisingly, this gives me a lot less satisfaction that paying down what we owe (mortgage). I know this is unreasonable & illogical, yet debt causes me more emotional angst that our portfolio gains generate. We paid our mortgage down to the half way point today (facepunches graciously accepted). It's a bay area mortgage, so we've paid off just over $1.8m of house in a 4 years. Feeling good about that. Eventually, we'll recast our mortgage to a point that I'll feel comfortable quitting my job. I did the math today, and ... it's not far off. Now that, that feels "rich". The $5m of net worth, or the $1m+ of mortgage paid off? It doesn't feel the same. But, financial flexibility & the ability to do whatever I want in the future? That feels pretty rich.

(Sidenote: our kids have four years left of school, and after that, we'll be ditching the VHCOL house & moving somewhere cheaper. This is a plan that helps us get through the next 4-5 years.)

We have similar numbers in my household, except that we are a bit older, both in our 50s. We just crossed $5.6M in our invested net worth this week (IRA, 401k and after-tax).  I can understand that you want to stay where you are for continuity for your kids' school but it seems clear that you could retire right now if you wanted. I was curious as to why you are still working. Reading your journal, I have a hunch that either you or your husband is in a very similar line of work as I was.

Paying off the mortgage will have zero impact on your net worth. You will be reducing your assets and liabilities by the same amount. Either way, $5 million NW is enough to FIRE on quite comfortably.

I'm aware of the math. Paying down the mortgage is an emotional consideration for me. I was unwilling to consider quitting work when we were sitting on a $2m mortgage.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 14, 2021, 10:14:33 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 12, 2021, 07:27:25 PM

We crested way over the $5m mark, selling stock that was held in a company stock account. It added another $300k or so of value to our net worth. Unsurprisingly, this gives me a lot less satisfaction that paying down what we owe (mortgage). I know this is unreasonable & illogical, yet debt causes me more emotional angst that our portfolio gains generate. We paid our mortgage down to the half way point today (facepunches graciously accepted). It's a bay area mortgage, so we've paid off just over $1.8m of house in a 4 years. Feeling good about that. Eventually, we'll recast our mortgage to a point that I'll feel comfortable quitting my job. I did the math today, and ... it's not far off. Now that, that feels "rich". The $5m of net worth, or the $1m+ of mortgage paid off? It doesn't feel the same. But, financial flexibility & the ability to do whatever I want in the future? That feels pretty rich.

(Sidenote: our kids have four years left of school, and after that, we'll be ditching the VHCOL house & moving somewhere cheaper. This is a plan that helps us get through the next 4-5 years.)

Oh shit! I was going to say, go ahead, pay it off: until I saw your sidenote. In that position, I'd be mighty tempted to figure our how little that house would cost me until i sold it. Recast, refi or just make minimum payments on the existing loan (assuming it's cheap). A plan to spend as little on the house payments and keep the platoons of little green soldiers deployed in the stock market is definitely worth heavy consideration. Are there any maintenance or improvement projects that need to happen before you sell? That may be a more effective way to deploy soldiers as well.

And yeah, you're rich. Congratulations!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on March 14, 2021, 02:57:58 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 13, 2021, 07:46:35 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 13, 2021, 04:29:33 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 12, 2021, 07:27:25 PM

We crested way over the $5m mark, selling stock that was held in a company stock account. It added another $300k or so of value to our net worth. Unsurprisingly, this gives me a lot less satisfaction that paying down what we owe (mortgage). I know this is unreasonable & illogical, yet debt causes me more emotional angst that our portfolio gains generate. We paid our mortgage down to the half way point today (facepunches graciously accepted). It's a bay area mortgage, so we've paid off just over $1.8m of house in a 4 years. Feeling good about that. Eventually, we'll recast our mortgage to a point that I'll feel comfortable quitting my job. I did the math today, and ... it's not far off. Now that, that feels "rich". The $5m of net worth, or the $1m+ of mortgage paid off? It doesn't feel the same. But, financial flexibility & the ability to do whatever I want in the future? That feels pretty rich.

(Sidenote: our kids have four years left of school, and after that, we'll be ditching the VHCOL house & moving somewhere cheaper. This is a plan that helps us get through the next 4-5 years.)

We have similar numbers in my household, except that we are a bit older, both in our 50s. We just crossed $5.6M in our invested net worth this week (IRA, 401k and after-tax).  I can understand that you want to stay where you are for continuity for your kids' school but it seems clear that you could retire right now if you wanted. I was curious as to why you are still working. Reading your journal, I have a hunch that either you or your husband is in a very similar line of work as I was.

Very well done, @2sk22 . You are crushing it. I could FIRE right now, but I'll keep working until I have to go back to international travel (I'm guessing that will be required in ~1 year). We actually have quite a bit of our net worth tied up in retirement accounts ($2M), another paid off property (vacation house) & our house. So, it's more of a cash flow consideration that allows us to keep the rest of our investments as is, while we get our kids through high school. We could certainly make other choices.

We are both in tech. My role is much more specialized than my husband's.

We have decided to retire next year and are now focused on fun, no longer interested in racing to $$$.

Just book one trip to the Great Smoky Mountain in April and another one to Las Vegas and the Grand Utah Circle of National Parks. We will plan at least one international trip this year if the virus situation does not get worse from here. We will get vaccinated in early April. Life is short and I cannot wait anymore.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 14, 2021, 04:51:33 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 14, 2021, 10:14:33 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 12, 2021, 07:27:25 PM

We crested way over the $5m mark, selling stock that was held in a company stock account. It added another $300k or so of value to our net worth. Unsurprisingly, this gives me a lot less satisfaction that paying down what we owe (mortgage). I know this is unreasonable & illogical, yet debt causes me more emotional angst that our portfolio gains generate. We paid our mortgage down to the half way point today (facepunches graciously accepted). It's a bay area mortgage, so we've paid off just over $1.8m of house in a 4 years. Feeling good about that. Eventually, we'll recast our mortgage to a point that I'll feel comfortable quitting my job. I did the math today, and ... it's not far off. Now that, that feels "rich". The $5m of net worth, or the $1m+ of mortgage paid off? It doesn't feel the same. But, financial flexibility & the ability to do whatever I want in the future? That feels pretty rich.

(Sidenote: our kids have four years left of school, and after that, we'll be ditching the VHCOL house & moving somewhere cheaper. This is a plan that helps us get through the next 4-5 years.)

Oh shit! I was going to say, go ahead, pay it off: until I saw your sidenote. In that position, I'd be mighty tempted to figure our how little that house would cost me until i sold it. Recast, refi or just make minimum payments on the existing loan (assuming it's cheap). A plan to spend as little on the house payments and keep the platoons of little green soldiers deployed in the stock market is definitely worth heavy consideration. Are there any maintenance or improvement projects that need to happen before you sell? That may be a more effective way to deploy soldiers as well.

And yeah, you're rich. Congratulations!

The loan is cheap - 2.5% - so, we're all good there. And yes, your mindset matches ours on the improvement projects that exist. There's a very small chance we'll keep the house. If the CA fire season is under control & we decide the property taxes are worth it, this is a pretty great place to live.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 17, 2021, 09:55:43 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on March 14, 2021, 02:57:58 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 13, 2021, 07:46:35 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 13, 2021, 04:29:33 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 12, 2021, 07:27:25 PM

We crested way over the $5m mark, selling stock that was held in a company stock account. It added another $300k or so of value to our net worth. Unsurprisingly, this gives me a lot less satisfaction that paying down what we owe (mortgage). I know this is unreasonable & illogical, yet debt causes me more emotional angst that our portfolio gains generate. We paid our mortgage down to the half way point today (facepunches graciously accepted). It's a bay area mortgage, so we've paid off just over $1.8m of house in a 4 years. Feeling good about that. Eventually, we'll recast our mortgage to a point that I'll feel comfortable quitting my job. I did the math today, and ... it's not far off. Now that, that feels "rich". The $5m of net worth, or the $1m+ of mortgage paid off? It doesn't feel the same. But, financial flexibility & the ability to do whatever I want in the future? That feels pretty rich.

(Sidenote: our kids have four years left of school, and after that, we'll be ditching the VHCOL house & moving somewhere cheaper. This is a plan that helps us get through the next 4-5 years.)

We have similar numbers in my household, except that we are a bit older, both in our 50s. We just crossed $5.6M in our invested net worth this week (IRA, 401k and after-tax).  I can understand that you want to stay where you are for continuity for your kids' school but it seems clear that you could retire right now if you wanted. I was curious as to why you are still working. Reading your journal, I have a hunch that either you or your husband is in a very similar line of work as I was.

Very well done, @2sk22 . You are crushing it. I could FIRE right now, but I'll keep working until I have to go back to international travel (I'm guessing that will be required in ~1 year). We actually have quite a bit of our net worth tied up in retirement accounts ($2M), another paid off property (vacation house) & our house. So, it's more of a cash flow consideration that allows us to keep the rest of our investments as is, while we get our kids through high school. We could certainly make other choices.

We are both in tech. My role is much more specialized than my husband's.

We have decided to retire next year and are now focused on fun, no longer interested in racing to $$$.

Just book one trip to the Great Smoky Mountain in April and another one to Las Vegas and the Grand Utah Circle of National Parks. We will plan at least one international trip this year if the virus situation does not get worse from here. We will get vaccinated in early April. Life is short and I cannot wait anymore.

Just flew back from my own National Parks Vegas loop., Vegas, Grand Canyon, Sedona (motezuma’s castle and well), Zion/Bryce Valley of Fire State park on my way to the airport for a red eye.  Weather was good except 1 “travel day” and 1/2 day of snow at Zion, but the. I got to see Zion and Bryce with snow.  Great hiking weather. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on March 21, 2021, 07:24:05 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on March 17, 2021, 09:55:43 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on March 14, 2021, 02:57:58 PM

We have decided to retire next year and are now focused on fun, no longer interested in racing to $$$.

Just book one trip to the Great Smoky Mountain in April and another one to Las Vegas and the Grand Utah Circle of National Parks. We will plan at least one international trip this year if the virus situation does not get worse from here. We will get vaccinated in early April. Life is short and I cannot wait anymore.

Just flew back from my own National Parks Vegas loop., Vegas, Grand Canyon, Sedona (motezuma’s castle and well), Zion/Bryce Valley of Fire State park on my way to the airport for a red eye.  Weather was good except 1 “travel day” and 1/2 day of snow at Zion, but the. I got to see Zion and Bryce with snow.  Great hiking weather.

That is great. Did you visit the Monument Valley? The web says it is closed, but someone said you can just go there on your own.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 22, 2021, 04:20:20 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on March 21, 2021, 07:24:05 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on March 17, 2021, 09:55:43 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on March 14, 2021, 02:57:58 PM

We have decided to retire next year and are now focused on fun, no longer interested in racing to $$$.

Just book one trip to the Great Smoky Mountain in April and another one to Las Vegas and the Grand Utah Circle of National Parks. We will plan at least one international trip this year if the virus situation does not get worse from here. We will get vaccinated in early April. Life is short and I cannot wait anymore.

Just flew back from my own National Parks Vegas loop., Vegas, Grand Canyon, Sedona (motezuma’s castle and well), Zion/Bryce Valley of Fire State park on my way to the airport for a red eye.  Weather was good except 1 “travel day” and 1/2 day of snow at Zion, but the. I got to see Zion and Bryce with snow.  Great hiking weather.

That is great. Did you visit the Monument Valley? The web says it is closed, but someone said you can just go there on your own.

I didn’t try because the day that would have made sense was my 1 day of really bad weather.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 24, 2021, 03:51:22 PM

I haven’t posted on this thread for a while and had to skip a bunch because I was so behind. Congrats to @maybebabymustache on your new net worth milestone.

On our end our house is about to close so we will have an infusion of cash coming our way.
That means another money date so we can figure out exactly how to allocate it. With our current 60/40 asset allocation (reverse equity glide path-ing it per Big ERN) we have plenty of bonds in taxable and are looking to add even more. So for the first time I am looking at adding a muni bond fund to the mix. All said and done we should be around the $3.5M invested which seems pretty healthy. Certainly so considering two years ago I was running simulations to decide if I was comfortable going from a $2.6M to a $2.3M FIRE number. Compound interest really is magical.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on March 25, 2021, 05:09:44 AM

That is great Ysette!  I've not managed to get much into bonds yet (I have my "non-equity" portion nearly entirely in cash - having locked in rates of around 2% a couple of years ago which seemed terrible at the time but not bad now, and a little bit of inflation-linked bonds that the government used to issue here).    I guess if I could get comfortable that I could find some bond products that were actively negatively correlated to equities that would definitely be worth considering ... but it certainly doesn't seem to be the case that you can assume that all bond funds have that particular characteristic!

I'm aiming for a Big-ERN style reverse equity glide path too, except that I was so heavily in cash leading up to retirement (just due to ignorance/lack of time/energy/risk aversion) that it has ended up being an upward glide path on the way into retirement too ... which is in nobody's textbook description of "how to do it"!  I'm currently at about 65:35, and I guess I will likely stay around there until I fully RE (currently just dropped to part time) and then gradually increase my equity exposure from there. 

I have a lot of reading/thinking to do about the details of what makes up that 35% as my savings products roll-off though!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 25, 2021, 06:50:31 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 24, 2021, 03:51:22 PM

I haven’t posted on this thread for a while and had to skip a bunch because I was so behind. Congrats to @MaybeBabyMustache on your new net worth milestone.

On our end our house is about to close so we will have an infusion of cash coming our way.
That means another money date so we can figure out exactly how to allocate it. With our current 60/40 asset allocation (reverse equity glide path-ing it per Big ERN) we have plenty of bonds in taxable and are looking to add even more. So for the first time I am looking at adding a muni bond fund to the mix. All said and done we should be around the $3.5M invested which seems pretty healthy. Certainly so considering two years ago I was running simulations to decide if I was comfortable going from a $2.6M to a $2.3M FIRE number. Compound interest really is magical.

Congratulations - are you leaving the Bay Area then?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 25, 2021, 07:43:40 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 25, 2021, 06:50:31 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on March 24, 2021, 03:51:22 PM

I haven’t posted on this thread for a while and had to skip a bunch because I was so behind. Congrats to @MaybeBabyMustache on your new net worth milestone.

On our end our house is about to close so we will have an infusion of cash coming our way.
That means another money date so we can figure out exactly how to allocate it. With our current 60/40 asset allocation (reverse equity glide path-ing it per Big ERN) we have plenty of bonds in taxable and are looking to add even more. So for the first time I am looking at adding a muni bond fund to the mix. All said and done we should be around the $3.5M invested which seems pretty healthy. Certainly so considering two years ago I was running simulations to decide if I was comfortable going from a $2.6M to a $2.3M FIRE number. Compound interest really is magical.

Congratulations - are you leaving the Bay Area then?

We are currently in Seattle and are selling our Bay Area house. We haven’t decided whether seattle is permanent or not. We could return to the Bay Area but I think it is less likely that we would than that we would be elsewhere. In any case if we returned we would need a bigger house so where we would land would be totally up in the air. At this point my family has all uprooted and moved to England so the Bay Area doesn’t hold as much for me as it used to. I am lobbying for a few years in England to get my kids permanent resident status so they have options in life. We shall see.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 25, 2021, 07:44:05 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on March 25, 2021, 05:09:44 AM

That is great Ysette!  I've not managed to get much into bonds yet (I have my "non-equity" portion nearly entirely in cash - having locked in rates of around 2% a couple of years ago which seemed terrible at the time but not bad now, and a little bit of inflation-linked bonds that the government used to issue here).    I guess if I could get comfortable that I could find some bond products that were actively negatively correlated to equities that would definitely be worth considering ... but it certainly doesn't seem to be the case that you can assume that all bond funds have that particular characteristic!

I'm aiming for a Big-ERN style reverse equity glide path too, except that I was so heavily in cash leading up to retirement (just due to ignorance/lack of time/energy/risk aversion) that it has ended up being an upward glide path on the way into retirement too ... which is in nobody's textbook description of "how to do it"!  I'm currently at about 65:35, and I guess I will likely stay around there until I fully RE (currently just dropped to part time) and then gradually increase my equity exposure from there. 

I have a lot of reading/thinking to do about the details of what makes up that 35% as my savings products roll-off though!

When you say “cash” do you mean CDs?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on March 25, 2021, 09:16:48 AM

I have to admit I'm never sure what CDs are!

I just mean fixed-term savings accounts at banks (so e.g. I have a few with terms between 2 and 5 years, all giving between about 2% and 2.5%).  They're often described as "savings bonds" here.  They are kind of bond like in that they return a defined coupon over a defined period.  But there is no capital risk: they're not tradable so there is no "price" to decline or appreciate.  You just get your capital back at the end.  In some of them you can get your capital back earlier if you sacrifice some interest. Others are properly locked in for the duration.

I think from a Google search that's probably the same as a CD?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on March 25, 2021, 10:36:16 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on March 25, 2021, 09:16:48 AM

I have to admit I'm never sure what CDs are!

I just mean fixed-term savings accounts at banks (so e.g. I have a few with terms between 2 and 5 years, all giving between about 2% and 2.5%).  They're often described as "savings bonds" here.  They are kind of bond like in that they return a defined coupon over a defined period.  But there is no capital risk: they're not tradable so there is no "price" to decline or appreciate.  You just get your capital back at the end.  In some of them you can get your capital back earlier if you sacrifice some interest. Others are properly locked in for the duration.

I think from a Google search that's probably the same as a CD?

In America, a CD is a certificate of deposit.  You purchase them at a bank or credit union, and they guarantee you a rate of interest for the duration of the CD.  The rate of interest is typically higher than a regular savings account in exchange for you agreeing to, or being restricted from, or being penalized for, making withdrawals.

On this side of the pond, a bond is a different thing.  A bond is essentially a loan to either a corporation (like Ford or Starbucks) or a government entity (like the state of California or the US federal government).  Like a CD, it pays interest and lasts a certain duration.  Unlike a CD, they're bought and sold all the time on the bond market, and the price varies based on the features of the bond.

The term "savings bond" here I think refers to certain US government bonds which have some features which make them useful for saving purposes.  They're usually considered low- to zero-risk because the US government can both (a) print more money and/or (b) raise taxes and/or (c) borrow from someone else to pay you back.  There are some tax benefits as well depending on the circumstances - most US bonds are not taxable at the state level, and the proceeds (and interest?) of some bonds may be tax-free if used for certain approved purposes (like EE bonds and education).

Beyond those two, there are a lot of other choices people have for the fixed income portion of their portfolios.  I don't have much interest or knowledge of this portion of the investing universe, so I just throw my small percentage into VTBLX and forget about it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 25, 2021, 01:34:27 PM

Quote from: LightTripper on March 25, 2021, 09:16:48 AM

I have to admit I'm never sure what CDs are!

I just mean fixed-term savings accounts at banks (so e.g. I have a few with terms between 2 and 5 years, all giving between about 2% and 2.5%).  They're often described as "savings bonds" here.  They are kind of bond like in that they return a defined coupon over a defined period.  But there is no capital risk: they're not tradable so there is no "price" to decline or appreciate.  You just get your capital back at the end.  In some of them you can get your capital back earlier if you sacrifice some interest. Others are properly locked in for the duration.

I think from a Google search that's probably the same as a CD?

That sounds a lot like a CD to me. I only know about them theoretically as I have never had one myself.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on March 25, 2021, 05:22:35 PM

Yes it sounds like it is the same thing!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 27, 2021, 04:50:19 AM

This thread has really died down of late. Anyhow i hope everyone is doing well. My/our NW hasnt really changed much as I have been putting a lot of $ into the house which adds value there since paid off but I don't count it in our NW. But where doing fine and spring is definitely in the air!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 27, 2021, 11:53:00 AM

Not bad on this end.

Even though yesterday was an all time high on the S&P500 I am down $16k from the previous high due to the bond fund part of my portfolio.

Still a pretty trivial amount compared to almost $4M networth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 27, 2021, 11:57:28 AM

Not much to write about really.   We're FIRED and living a good life whilst our net worth varied by half a million dollars up or down over the year.  But our income didn't really change and we didn't draw down our stash so it was all pretty much a meh from our (financial) point of view.

We're up to $2.875M, so if we stay steady for the rest of this year and thru the next we'll top $3M.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 27, 2021, 02:16:36 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 27, 2021, 04:50:19 AM

This thread has really died down of late. Anyhow i hope everyone is doing well. My/our NW hasnt really changed much as I have been putting a lot of $ into the house which adds value there since paid off but I don't count it in our NW. But where doing fine and spring is definitely in the air!

Things have been going well around here - my wife got a good annual bonus so we barely miss my salary :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on March 27, 2021, 04:29:50 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 27, 2021, 04:50:19 AM

This thread has really died down of late. Anyhow i hope everyone is doing well. My/our NW hasnt really changed much as I have been putting a lot of $ into the house which adds value there since paid off but I don't count it in our NW. But where doing fine and spring is definitely in the air!

Financially everything is going well.  My investments are over $1.4M (a new high as of today) & vested COLA'd pension of $39.5k/year (worth $900k-ish??).  Only 1.75 years until the pension comes online <insert impatient face here>.  The GF's TSP is over $1.5M as well and is getting her pension of $33k/year (and doing tax prep work for the fun of it - don't ask, I don't get it either).

And yay, no one is sick and Spring is arriving.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 27, 2021, 04:50:34 PM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on March 27, 2021, 04:29:50 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 27, 2021, 04:50:19 AM

This thread has really died down of late. Anyhow i hope everyone is doing well. My/our NW hasnt really changed much as I have been putting a lot of $ into the house which adds value there since paid off but I don't count it in our NW. But where doing fine and spring is definitely in the air!

Financially everything is going well.  My investments are over $1.4M (a new high as of today) & vested COLA'd pension of $39.5k/year (worth $900k-ish??).  Only 1.75 years until the pension comes online <insert impatient face here>.  The GF's TSP is over $1.5M as well and is getting her pension of $33k/year (and doing tax prep work for the fun of it - don't ask, I don't get it either).

And yay, no one is sick and Spring is arriving.

My mom taught math for 30 plus years, her taxes are one big “fun” story problem.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 28, 2021, 08:01:19 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 27, 2021, 04:50:19 AM

This thread has really died down of late. Anyhow i hope everyone is doing well. My/our NW hasn't really changed much as I have been putting a lot of $ into the house which adds value there since paid off but I don't count it in our NW. But where doing fine and spring is definitely in the air!

You know once you have enough and you ain't greedy, you don't pay as much attention to the money thing.  Maybe, I'll move to the UP and just fish.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on March 28, 2021, 10:30:42 AM

Our NW just flew past 2.8m with Friday’s up market. The OMY syndrome is real.

Yesterday we were buying an “inexpensive” patio bistro set and seat cushions ($330 after tax) for our new house and the cashier asked if I wanted to open a Lowe’s credit card and save 20 percent. I said no at first (don’t need another credit card and we don’t carry a balance) but she looked at me like I had three heads and this shamed me into signing up. After the hassle of signing up and getting approved she asked if I would like to instead select the no interest for six months option and that was a hard no, give me my 20 percent! I was approved on the spot but only for 9k, I just had to laugh. BUT then I remembered Lowe’s is one of the stocks in my IRA so I should support Lowe’s. So please shop at Lowe’s and not Home Depot, haha!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 28, 2021, 11:40:57 AM

About the only thing I'm closely watching in the market right now is interest rates.  As rates rise/bonds fall I'm (very) gradually moving some of my large cash holdings toward bonds given I have so little right now.  I'll be REing by next spring at the latest (when exactly is purely based on some non-financial goals). I think I am at a NW/LNW high right now so no complaints....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 01:29:47 PM

Counting the days (20) until I reach ‘full immunity’ - I get my second Pfizer shot on Saturday.

Starting to get excited about future travel. Headed to nyc to see family and friends in late April (scored a $4.50 round trip bus trip by booking a few months ago), and I’m also thinking about a domestic road trip. For the latter I was thinking about buying a three year old lowish mileage Honda Fit as you can apparently fold down a seat and have enough room to sleep in it, and then giving it to my gf after the trip - her sixteen year old Subaru Forrester is on its last legs and she was thinking about buying a Fit anyway.  As far as international travel goes, well... I think I’ll wait until most tourist attractions are open, curfews are gone, and restaurants are serving indoors, which may be a while for most places I’m interested to visit.

As far as the markets go...we’ll they’re just insane. Despite a 50/50 allocation and spending way more than I should, my accounts have already gone up more than my anticipated spending for 2021.  I’m very curious what inflation will be looking like in 3-5 years. In any event, I’m operating under the thesis that the total market will climb another 20% this year and 25% next year before a crash, and if I’m right about the first part I’ll start moving out of stocks slowly and regularly starting 1/22 through 12/22,  but still thinking through the best plan for the latter phase.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 28, 2021, 01:32:20 PM

Quote from: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 01:29:47 PM

Counting the days (20) until I reach ‘full immunity’ - I get my second Pfizer shot on Saturday.

My understanding is that you won't be immune, you'll just be very unlikely to get Covid and unlikely to get a fatal case of it.

That doesn't mean you can't get it and then kill other folks who aren't vaccinated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 02:01:27 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 28, 2021, 01:32:20 PM

Quote from: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 01:29:47 PM

Counting the days (20) until I reach ‘full immunity’ - I get my second Pfizer shot on Saturday.

My understanding is that you won't be immune, you'll just be very unlikely to get Covid and unlikely to get a fatal case of it.

That doesn't mean you can't get it and then kill other folks who aren't vaccinated.

That’s why I put it in quotes.
I will of course continue to mask, social distance, etc.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 28, 2021, 02:05:42 PM

Quote from: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 02:01:27 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 28, 2021, 01:32:20 PM

Quote from: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 01:29:47 PM

Counting the days (20) until I reach ‘full immunity’ - I get my second Pfizer shot on Saturday.

My understanding is that you won't be immune, you'll just be very unlikely to get Covid and unlikely to get a fatal case of it.

That doesn't mean you can't get it and then kill other folks who aren't vaccinated.

That’s why I put it in quotes.
I will of course continue to mask, social distance, etc.

I was hoping that's what you meant!   But a lot of folks don't seem to understand that, so even if you did, it was worth saying anyway!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on March 29, 2021, 10:12:47 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on March 28, 2021, 10:30:42 AM

Our NW just flew past 2.8m with Friday’s up market. The OMY syndrome is real.

Yesterday we were buying an “inexpensive” patio bistro set and seat cushions ($330 after tax) for our new house and the cashier asked if I wanted to open a Lowe’s credit card and save 20 percent. I said no at first (don’t need another credit card and we don’t carry a balance) but she looked at me like I had three heads and this shamed me into signing up. After the hassle of signing up and getting approved she asked if I would like to instead select the no interest for six months option and that was a hard no, give me my 20 percent! I was approved on the spot but only for 9k, I just had to laugh. BUT then I remembered Lowe’s is one of the stocks in my IRA so I should support Lowe’s. So please shop at Lowe’s and not Home Depot, haha!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In my local stores, Lowe's is (mostly slightly) more expensive than Home Depot. Walmart beats them both if they have similar items.

Last week, I bought one apple tree from Home Depot, one apple tree (different variety) and one pear tree from Walmart. Home Depot price was $24.99 and Walmart price is $24.95 before taxes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on March 30, 2021, 08:52:23 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 27, 2021, 02:16:36 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on March 27, 2021, 04:50:19 AM

This thread has really died down of late. Anyhow i hope everyone is doing well. My/our NW hasnt really changed much as I have been putting a lot of $ into the house which adds value there since paid off but I don't count it in our NW. But where doing fine and spring is definitely in the air!

Things have been going well around here - my wife got a good annual bonus so we barely miss my salary :-)

Ah, and my wife just received her one year (full time) review, raise and bonus.  Before that, she spent 5 years working per-diem mainly to get her time working clinical hours.  Before that, 14 years bringing up the kids, which killed her earning potential.  Anyways, her income has mainly been a way to double our 401k contributions and that's gone really well.  We're both now looking at whenever Covid is done and gone, which we're hoping will be a year from now, then both quit and do things like tour Nova Scotia (and I visit Oak Island....one of my favorite mindless shows to watch) and maybe even visit exotic, far away places like England and Australia.  (I barely speak English, so thinking of getting along in France, Spain or Germany brings some anxiety).  We have talked about me ordering a European delivery Porsche, where we'd pick it up and then tour Europe for 2 weeks.  Still not out of the question.

I've been watching my balance go up and down.  Enough to make me sea sick.  Next target is $3.3M and I'm only a few grand away.  We splurged this week and bought a new dishwasher when the old one made really bad noises and on first check, I couldn't figure it out.  As it turns out, the new one cleans about a million percent better, so it's a good buy for us.  The old one?  Well, I scrap electronics and metals, so it's all taken apart and separated into steel, wire, circuit boards, aluminum with the stainless tub and door thrown on my scrap steel trailer.

In other fun news, I've been very slowly going through coins and bills I inherited a decade ago when my dad passed away.  My eScrap yard also does coins, and their prices rival what I can get selling to craigslist people, which is 20% more than the coin and bullion dealer.  Anyways, I opened a few more envelopes and found a couple Transamerica Insurance 1 Oz silver rounds.  Dad ran an insurance agency since starting to work for my grandfather when he was in high school.  Anyways, dropped them off for fifty bucks coming home from visiting my mom at her financial advisor.  Don't get scared, we're not buying things, she's looking forward to when she'll go into an independent retirement place and need more monthly income.

So those are my random thoughts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 30, 2021, 10:58:50 AM

We just paid our bills for the end of the month and updated our net worth. $2.54 million.  That number was our FIRE amount when we started this whole journey, as well as having all our kids' college paid for. We haven't funded the college yet. We also decided that a paid off house should be part of the FIRE amount, so we added another $500K to the goal line. My husband will likely end up working until 55 so that he won't be leaving unvested stock shares on the table with his company (about $250K worth). 

The great news is we COULD afford to be unemployed if he gets fired or laid off! 

I'm sure we're going to be poking along for the long next while with me not working and having 2 kids in college for the next few years. Even poking along our numbers grow due to earnings and compounding. Thank you former couponvan....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 30, 2021, 01:58:21 PM

Quote from: couponvan on March 30, 2021, 10:58:50 AM

We just paid our bills for the end of the month and updated our net worth. $2.54 million.  That number was our FIRE amount when we started this whole journey, as well as having all our kids' college paid for. We haven't funded the college yet. We also decided that a paid off house should be part of the FIRE amount, so we added another $500K to the goal line. My husband will likely end up working until 55 so that he won't be leaving unvested stock shares on the table with his company (about $250K worth). 

The great news is we COULD afford to be unemployed if he gets fired or laid off! 

I'm sure we're going to be poking along for the long next while with me not working and having 2 kids in college for the next few years. Even poking along our numbers grow due to earnings and compounding. Thank you former couponvan....

I agree with your approach: funded college and a paid-off house greatly add to peace of mind when you're retired. Paying a low interest mortgage has no financial advantage but it certainly helps psychologically.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 30, 2021, 04:34:47 PM

Not much to report.  Been in Florida since last Monday.  Friends daughter got married down in Fort Lauderdale.  We drove down there and spent the weekend for the wedding.  Spring Break was in full swing.  We didn't do much beach time with the crowds.  Back at our Florida house now and have been doing some yard work and small projects.   Driving back to Louisiana Thursday and work Friday night.  Going to be hard to leave, we love it here so much.  A little over 800 days now till I retire at 55.  Money is solid.  Liquid were hanging at 2.75M.  Our youngest son gets married in October and we'll be busy with that for a while.  The end of April we'll be headed to Hilton Head, South Carolina for a week.  We'll drop down here to the Florida house for a few days afterwards on our way back to Louisiana.  I got my one shot Johnson and Johnson vaccine two weeks ago and have had zero side effects.  Hope you all are well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 02, 2021, 09:12:39 AM

I'm so glad to hear that everyone is doing well.  I was in a bit of funk over the holidays, with many people I knew getting sick from Covid.  I felt like a cloud was over us, but it has lifted quite a bit now. We are feeling optimistic-- finally-- about the world recovering from this terrible pandemic.   My family members are nearly all vaccinated, and that is a relief.  We are fully vaccinated and slowly, carefully,  adding modestly social activities to the calendar.    I had guests over for dinner last week! 

Financially, things are amazing.   Property values are absolutely skyrocketing.  Since we're 90% in Real Estate, NW is soaring along with it.   The comps are showing a value increase in our rental portfolio that has topped 50K a month all year long.   We are stable, so no need to liquidate any assets at the moment or in the foreseeable future.   We will continue to offer well kept, affordable housing to our long term tenants with no change in plans for now.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 02, 2021, 09:40:33 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 28, 2021, 02:05:42 PM

Quote from: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 02:01:27 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 28, 2021, 01:32:20 PM

Quote from: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 01:29:47 PM

Counting the days (20) until I reach ‘full immunity’ - I get my second Pfizer shot on Saturday.

My understanding is that you won't be immune, you'll just be very unlikely to get Covid and unlikely to get a fatal case of it.

That doesn't mean you can't get it and then kill other folks who aren't vaccinated.

That’s why I put it in quotes.
I will of course continue to mask, social distance, etc.

I was hoping that's what you meant!   But a lot of folks don't seem to understand that, so even if you did, it was worth saying anyway!

I disagree.  I'm a "follow the science" person, so if you're vaccinated the only reason to wear a mask is because its a rule in a place or to prevent catching something other than covid (I think wearing a mask during flu season is a good idea anyway). The number of people that question/ignore the CDC in the US has been incredibly annoying and I'm not gonna start now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on April 02, 2021, 10:12:31 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 02, 2021, 09:40:33 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 28, 2021, 02:05:42 PM

Quote from: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 02:01:27 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 28, 2021, 01:32:20 PM

Quote from: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 01:29:47 PM

Counting the days (20) until I reach ‘full immunity’ - I get my second Pfizer shot on Saturday.

My understanding is that you won't be immune, you'll just be very unlikely to get Covid and unlikely to get a fatal case of it.

That doesn't mean you can't get it and then kill other folks who aren't vaccinated.

That’s why I put it in quotes.
I will of course continue to mask, social distance, etc.

I was hoping that's what you meant!   But a lot of folks don't seem to understand that, so even if you did, it was worth saying anyway!

I disagree.  I'm a "follow the science" person, so if you're vaccinated the only reason to wear a mask is because its a rule in a place or to prevent catching something other than covid (I think wearing a mask during flu season is a good idea anyway). The number of people that question/ignore the CDC in the US has been incredibly annoying and I'm not gonna start now.

If you truly did 'follow the science' you would know that the primary reason for wearing masks never had to do with preventing your catching Covid-19, but rather to prevent your transmitting it to someone else.  The evidence is not there yet to prove or disprove whether vaccinated people can transmit to unvaccinated individuals, and it's only within the last 24 hours that evidence has emerged that the vaccine is providing lasting (> 6 months) immunity.  So while I think it's a good bet that the vaccinated can't transmit, we still don't know for sure, and I sure as hell don't want to kill somebody who hasn't been able to get their shot(s) yet.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 02, 2021, 11:54:29 AM

Well yesterday's record high also translated into a record high for us at an invested $2.6M.

With future pensions its starting to look like silly money, let alone the rent we get.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on April 02, 2021, 11:59:28 AM

We recently flew by 2.8m NW, 2.65 is invested and rest home equity. This time last year we were at 1.9m. Very crazy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 02, 2021, 12:04:43 PM

Our house sale came through so once we get our pile-o-cash invested we will be around $3.6m. Holy crap.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 02, 2021, 12:14:57 PM

Quote from: jeroly on April 02, 2021, 10:12:31 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 02, 2021, 09:40:33 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 28, 2021, 02:05:42 PM

Quote from: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 02:01:27 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 28, 2021, 01:32:20 PM

Quote from: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 01:29:47 PM

Counting the days (20) until I reach ‘full immunity’ - I get my second Pfizer shot on Saturday.

My understanding is that you won't be immune, you'll just be very unlikely to get Covid and unlikely to get a fatal case of it.

That doesn't mean you can't get it and then kill other folks who aren't vaccinated.

That’s why I put it in quotes.
I will of course continue to mask, social distance, etc.

I was hoping that's what you meant!   But a lot of folks don't seem to understand that, so even if you did, it was worth saying anyway!

I disagree.  I'm a "follow the science" person, so if you're vaccinated the only reason to wear a mask is because its a rule in a place or to prevent catching something other than covid (I think wearing a mask during flu season is a good idea anyway). The number of people that question/ignore the CDC in the US has been incredibly annoying and I'm not gonna start now.

If you truly did 'follow the science' you would know that the primary reason for wearing masks never had to do with preventing your catching Covid-19, but rather to prevent your transmitting it to someone else.  The evidence is not there yet to prove or disprove whether vaccinated people can transmit to unvaccinated individuals, and it's only within the last 24 hours that evidence has emerged that the vaccine is providing lasting (> 6 months) immunity.  So while I think it's a good bet that the vaccinated can't transmit, we still don't know for sure, and I sure as hell don't want to kill somebody who hasn't been able to get their shot(s) yet.

I'm not sure what you are talking about.  I did follow it and I did know that.  Just like I knew we were not supposed to wear masks at one point so they were more available to healthcare workers, at some point there was enough we were to wear masks b/c there was enough for everyone.  I continue to follow it and now "the science" says the vaccinated do not transmit the virus. 

Of course I am saying "follow the science" a little tongue and cheek b/c we all know everyone picks whatever they want to consider to be "the science"....but I choose to go by the CDC and they said a vaccinated person does not transmit the virus:

"Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don't get sick, and that it's not just in the clinical trials but it's also in real-world data," CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky told Rachel Maddow on Monday, March 29. Walensky was describing the results of a new CDC study of vaccinated Americans, which found that they not only had very high resistance to COVID-19, but also to asymptomatic infections of the SARS-CoV-2 virus – and, by extension, are very unlikely to spread it to other people.

And for anyone that wants to blanket they 'aren't will to kill anyone' then I have a problem with the decades they walked around during flu season without the masks on while the elderly drop like flies.  We balance risks based on what we know. 

If this year has confirmed anything for me its that I never join a political party.  I have no doubt 10 years from now democrats will still be wearing masks and republicans will not even if we get hit by the deadliest plague ever, and they'll both be calling each other ignorant along the way from their high horses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on April 02, 2021, 12:24:02 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 02, 2021, 12:14:57 PM

I'm not sure what you are talking about.  I did follow it and I did know that.  Just like I knew we were not supposed to wear masks at one point so they were more available to healthcare workers, at some point there was enough we were to wear masks b/c there was enough for everyone.  I continue to follow it and now "the science" says the vaccinated do not transmit the virus. 

Of course I am saying "follow the science" a little tongue and cheek b/c we all know everyone picks whatever they want to consider to be "the science"....but I choose to go by the CDC and they said a vaccinated person does not transmit the virus:

"Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don't get sick, and that it's not just in the clinical trials but it's also in real-world data," CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky told Rachel Maddow on Monday, March 29. Walensky was describing the results of a new CDC study of vaccinated Americans, which found that they not only had very high resistance to COVID-19, but also to asymptomatic infections of the SARS-CoV-2 virus – and, by extension, are very unlikely to spread it to other people.

And for anyone that wants to blanket they 'aren't will to kill anyone' then I have a problem with the decades they walked around during flu season without the masks on while the elderly drop like flies.  We balance risks based on what we know. 

If this year has confirmed anything for me its that I never join a political party.  I have no doubt 10 years from now democrats will still be wearing masks and republicans will not even if we get hit by the deadliest plague ever, and they'll both be calling each other ignorant along the way from their high horses.

Yes, we balance risks based on what we know, but it's also what the tradeoff is.

Wearing a mask: no downside and a lot of potential upside for others so why not wear it? And yes, even in flu season. It's like seatbelts but it helps other people.

Note that in lots of places mask wearing was "normal" before COVID was a thing during flu season.

I do understand that America is more individualistic than these other places (i.e. the argument is that if you're the old/sick/worried one you should make changes, not me).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 02, 2021, 12:27:25 PM

S&P500 is up 7.06% for the year.   If it gets to 8% we'll go over the $3M mark.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 02, 2021, 12:28:35 PM

I wouldn’t be surprised if mask wearing stuck around for a while in some circles simply because we have all gotten used to it. I am at the point where I feel a bit naked if I go out without one. It can be annoying at times but there are some wise benefits. I am very pale and super sensitive to the sun. The mask protects my face at just the part that sometimes doesn’t get protected by my hat - winning. Currently I am recovering from a cold sore but I don’t feel self conscious about it because no one sees it hidden behind my mask. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on April 02, 2021, 03:28:16 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 02, 2021, 12:14:57 PM

Quote from: jeroly on April 02, 2021, 10:12:31 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 02, 2021, 09:40:33 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 28, 2021, 02:05:42 PM

Quote from: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 02:01:27 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 28, 2021, 01:32:20 PM

Quote from: jeroly on March 28, 2021, 01:29:47 PM

Counting the days (20) until I reach ‘full immunity’ - I get my second Pfizer shot on Saturday.

My understanding is that you won't be immune, you'll just be very unlikely to get Covid and unlikely to get a fatal case of it.

That doesn't mean you can't get it and then kill other folks who aren't vaccinated.

That’s why I put it in quotes.
I will of course continue to mask, social distance, etc.

I was hoping that's what you meant!   But a lot of folks don't seem to understand that, so even if you did, it was worth saying anyway!

I disagree.  I'm a "follow the science" person, so if you're vaccinated the only reason to wear a mask is because its a rule in a place or to prevent catching something other than covid (I think wearing a mask during flu season is a good idea anyway). The number of people that question/ignore the CDC in the US has been incredibly annoying and I'm not gonna start now.

If you truly did 'follow the science' you would know that the primary reason for wearing masks never had to do with preventing your catching Covid-19, but rather to prevent your transmitting it to someone else.  The evidence is not there yet to prove or disprove whether vaccinated people can transmit to unvaccinated individuals, and it's only within the last 24 hours that evidence has emerged that the vaccine is providing lasting (> 6 months) immunity.  So while I think it's a good bet that the vaccinated can't transmit, we still don't know for sure, and I sure as hell don't want to kill somebody who hasn't been able to get their shot(s) yet.

I'm not sure what you are talking about.  I did follow it and I did know that.  Just like I knew we were not supposed to wear masks at one point so they were more available to healthcare workers, at some point there was enough we were to wear masks b/c there was enough for everyone.  I continue to follow it and now "the science" says the vaccinated do not transmit the virus. 

Of course I am saying "follow the science" a little tongue and cheek b/c we all know everyone picks whatever they want to consider to be "the science"....but I choose to go by the CDC and they said a vaccinated person does not transmit the virus:

"Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don't get sick, and that it's not just in the clinical trials but it's also in real-world data," CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky told Rachel Maddow on Monday, March 29. Walensky was describing the results of a new CDC study of vaccinated Americans, which found that they not only had very high resistance to COVID-19, but also to asymptomatic infections of the SARS-CoV-2 virus – and, by extension, are very unlikely to spread it to other people.

And for anyone that wants to blanket they 'aren't will to kill anyone' then I have a problem with the decades they walked around during flu season without the masks on while the elderly drop like flies.  We balance risks based on what we know. 

If this year has confirmed anything for me its that I never join a political party.  I have no doubt 10 years from now democrats will still be wearing masks and republicans will not even if we get hit by the deadliest plague ever, and they'll both be calling each other ignorant along the way from their high horses.

You were perhaps listening to Trump's BS from the campaign when he was trying to blame Fauci for his fuckups, and not to what Fauci had actually said.  Fauci, the NIAID and the CDC never said not to wear a mask, but not to wear hospital-grade N95 masks so as to preserve their availability for those most in need.  They still haven't changed that guidance, by the way.

As far as the vaccinated spreading the virus, well... Walensky was more or less talking out of her ass.  The evidence isn't there to support her claims, and even the CDC went out of their way to walk back her dangerous claim. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/health/coronavirus-vaccine-walensky.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/health/coronavirus-vaccine-walensky.html)

“Dr. Walensky spoke broadly during this interview,” an agency spokesman told The Times. “It’s possible that some people who are fully vaccinated could get Covid-19. The evidence isn’t clear whether they can spread the virus to others. We are continuing to evaluate the evidence.”

The agency was responding in part to criticism from scientists who noted that current research was far from sufficient to claim that vaccinated people cannot spread the virus.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 03, 2021, 07:07:35 AM

I had both my shots.  We still need to eat.  I'm not allowed in the grocery store without a mask.  I'll wear the mask.  It's easy to put on and easy to take off.  You know - I have bigger things to worry about.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 03, 2021, 09:34:30 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 02, 2021, 12:27:25 PM

S&P500 is up 7.06% for the year.   If it gets to 8% we'll go over the $3M mark.

That's what happens when I do public math late at night or early in the morning.  :)

We'll be at $2.9M, not $3.0M if the S&P500 gets to 8% up this year.

Which means if we have an average year for 2021 and 2022 we'll sail past that $3M number.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on April 03, 2021, 10:58:27 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 03, 2021, 09:34:30 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 02, 2021, 12:27:25 PM

S&P500 is up 7.06% for the year.   If it gets to 8% we'll go over the $3M mark.

That's what happens when I do public math late at night or early in the morning.  :)

We'll be at $2.9M, not $3.0M if the S&P500 gets to 8% up this year.

Which means if we have an average year for 2021 and 2022 we'll sail past that $3M number.

Math is one of the many things that I learned to avoid doing in public.  ;) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 05, 2021, 04:43:52 AM

Well were down in Florida and actually today is our last day here. Has been very nice and first Family Vacation in a long time. Pulled off a nice 80th Surprise Party for my Dad and 50th Anniversary surprise for my Dad and his wife. Last two days we have been running around seeing the sights on our own and soaking in the sun. As I mentioned a week or so ago this is an expensive time right now for us with all the remodeling were doing and this trip is not cheap to say the least but without the paid off house still above the 2.5M mark. Calling today for my monthly withdrawal. I have about 25k more to spend and I should be ok then. Fortunately we do have the other 2 kids that are still home college funds funded so I just realized 3 days ago was my 6th year being fire'd and were doing well. Sure dont miss my business and all the hassles that went with it and now that I am closer to 60 than 50 I am so thankful I was able to pull it off at 50. Watching my kids grow up and spending more time with them has been a blessing as well as moving into a lake house which also was about a 400k shave off our NW not including the remodeling were doing but its worth it. I still check financials daily but thats because I have my very small trading account that keeps me active in the markets which I enjoy early in the mornings and were closer now to 65/25/10 in cash. Be nice if the markets have some more lift in them but I am not sure at what cost in the long run. In either case I feel we should be prepared but there is always the thing you dont thing about you seem to need to power through. Anyhow its bustling in Florida for sure the traffic is a bit much for my liking but I do love the sunshine.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on April 05, 2021, 09:42:59 AM

I can tell that at least in my head, retirement is closing in.  Today, I added to my investments spread sheet a section for withdrawal strategy.  Where to get the money, how much and why.  My generic goal is to go to the top of the 12% federal tax bracket each year and possibly earn income to be able to max Roths for both DW and me.

Part of this realization:  Clicked strongly over the $3.3MM point and changed my spread sheet target to "Amount to $3.4MM".  Of course, now that I said that, the market will dive 4%.

Another pre-retirement activity:  I drove a new Porsche Cayman.  I've thought about getting one as a fun car in retirement.  Unfortunately, I was underwhelmed by it.  Better than a Tesla Model S I drove, but neither worth the money.  Sort of on my not very extravagant list at the moment are the Subaru BRZ when the new version comes out in the fall and a new WRX or STi.  DS has a new STi which I've driven a good amount.  I like it but it needs smaller wheels/bigger sidewall tires to calm the suspension a bit in my opinion.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 05, 2021, 10:03:07 AM

12/31/2017 $2,523,342    

12/31/2018 $2,553,037   Retired in May of 2018.

4/1/2021 $2,892,127       

And the S&P500 is up again this morning, so if that sticks we'll be over $2.9 million.  An average return for this year and the next will put us well over the $3 million threshold.

Our passive cash flow independent of our stock/bond portfolio is up $30k per year from what it was when we retired and our expenses are way less now that our home is paid off.   So we're actually in a better financial position moving forward.

It's still hard to believe.   



    

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 05, 2021, 11:23:25 AM

Love reading your reports on current life.  I pondered a lot this weekend working nights whether to call it quits.  I think I'm just tired after a hard three weeks of pushing pretty hard.  Two of those weeks were actually vacation.  Work may be where I'm actually resting.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 05, 2021, 12:07:20 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 05, 2021, 10:03:07 AM

12/31/2017 $2,523,342    

12/31/2018 $2,553,037   Retired in May of 2018.

4/1/2021 $2,892,127       

And the S&P500 is up again this morning, so if that sticks we'll be over $2.9 million.  An average return for this year and the next will put us well over the $3 million threshold.

Our passive cash flow independent of our stock/bond portfolio is up $30k per year from what it was when we retired and our expenses are way less now that our home is paid off.   So we're actually in a better financial position moving forward.

It's still hard to believe.

I assume from your description these numbers are just your investments.. I.e total NW is bigger than this?

It is hard to believe, I was saying just this morning these numbers just don't seem real as numbers on a screen. Its just when I realise I could buy 4 pretty nice houses for cash that it hits me just how much money this actually is!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 05, 2021, 12:12:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 05, 2021, 12:07:20 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 05, 2021, 10:03:07 AM

12/31/2017 $2,523,342    

12/31/2018 $2,553,037   Retired in May of 2018.

4/1/2021 $2,892,127       

And the S&P500 is up again this morning, so if that sticks we'll be over $2.9 million.  An average return for this year and the next will put us well over the $3 million threshold.

Our passive cash flow independent of our stock/bond portfolio is up $30k per year from what it was when we retired and our expenses are way less now that our home is paid off.   So we're actually in a better financial position moving forward.

It's still hard to believe.

I assume from your description these numbers are just your investments.. I.e total NW is bigger than this?

It is hard to believe, I was saying just this morning these numbers just don't seem real as numbers on a screen. Its just when I realise I could buy 4 pretty nice houses for cash that it hits me just how much money this actually is!

No kidding!

About $1.55M  is in stocks and bonds, about $360k in our home, and the rest in rental homes and farmland and now a share of a trucking company.    So, all but about $375k is investments, just not all stocks and bonds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 05, 2021, 12:28:59 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 05, 2021, 12:07:20 PM

I assume from your description these numbers are just your investments.. I.e total NW is bigger than this?

It is hard to believe, I was saying just this morning these numbers just don't seem real as numbers on a screen. Its just when I realise I could buy 4 pretty nice houses for cash that it hits me just how much money this actually is!

Heh - I also daydream sometimes about what I could buy for cash :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on April 05, 2021, 01:04:55 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 05, 2021, 12:28:59 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 05, 2021, 12:07:20 PM

I assume from your description these numbers are just your investments.. I.e total NW is bigger than this?

It is hard to believe, I was saying just this morning these numbers just don't seem real as numbers on a screen. Its just when I realise I could buy 4 pretty nice houses for cash that it hits me just how much money this actually is!

Heh - I also daydream sometimes about what I could buy for cash :-)

Don't sell everything, you'd cause a market panic :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 05, 2021, 01:56:52 PM

Ran the numbers yesterday. Passed $2.6 net, or $2.75 if you believe Zillow’s home valuations. I have a couple more years of work related commitments, so even with a flat market, we will pass $3.0 in those two years. It all seems a bit crazy, and while ER is out there to be grabbed, Covid and WFH couldn’t have been timed better. This past year has been a welcome change, and even when things are back to normal, it looks like I’ll still have the option to WFH 2-3 days a week. Now if I can just figure out how to only work 2-3 days a week at around half my current pay. That would be perfect.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 05, 2021, 03:11:49 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on April 05, 2021, 01:04:55 PM

Don't sell everything, you'd cause a market panic :-)

In pre-covid times, I used to regularly meet a group of college friends for lunch in Manhattan. Most of them worked in hedge funds or investment banking (I think all have retired now). A couple of them were managing gigantic portfolios so they could have actually swung markets. It was fascinating to hear their war stories - a completely different world from big tech.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 05, 2021, 05:29:43 PM

I was looking at the financial analysis I had done in June of 2017 today and comparing it to where I are now.

NW change from $1.2 to 2.1 million
Distribution from about 50/50 real estate to investments to $1.9 million in investments and $200k in home equity.
This was while getting more conservative in my investment accounts 90/10 vs 70/30. 
Increase in net worth about $50k more a year than my salary.

Needless to say my mind was blown.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 05, 2021, 10:27:04 PM

Made over 22k just today.  WTF!  Who the hell is this?  Is this me?   I was raised in a gotdammed strawberry patch.  It's working.  It's beautiful.  Gotta get the boat in the water.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 06, 2021, 08:23:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 05, 2021, 10:27:04 PM

Made over 22k just today.  WTF!  Who the hell is this?  Is this me?   I was raised in a gotdammed strawberry patch.  It's working.  It's beautiful.  Gotta get the boat in the water.

I know its nuts! I made similar.. I keep thinking this is all a dream and it has t all come crashing down.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on April 06, 2021, 08:26:58 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 06, 2021, 08:23:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 05, 2021, 10:27:04 PM

Made over 22k just today.  WTF!  Who the hell is this?  Is this me?   I was raised in a gotdammed strawberry patch.  It's working.  It's beautiful.  Gotta get the boat in the water.

I know its nuts! I made similar.. I keep thinking this is all a dream and it has t all come crashing down.

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 06, 2021, 07:09:52 AM

The increases have been surreal, no other way to put it.  And I have fairly conservative AA.   The weird feelings I have sometimes is that I think I would prefer to have less but with more stable normal kind of growth as for now I can't help but think the increases for the last few years will vanish.   Easy come, easy go kind of thinking.

I feel like I could re-quote myself every few months. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on April 06, 2021, 08:36:12 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 06, 2021, 08:23:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 05, 2021, 10:27:04 PM

Made over 22k just today.  WTF!  Who the hell is this?  Is this me?   I was raised in a gotdammed strawberry patch.  It's working.  It's beautiful.  Gotta get the boat in the water.

I know its nuts! I made similar.. I keep thinking this is all a dream and it has t all come crashing down.

Shhhhhh. I don’t want to wake up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roboturner on April 06, 2021, 11:35:37 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on January 01, 2021, 08:48:53 AM

Spoiler: show

Q2 2016:
LNW: 528k
TNW: 720k

Q3 2016:
LNW: 652k
TNW: 845k

YE 2016:
LNW: 685k
TNW: 893k

Q1 2017:
LNW: 800k
TNW: 1001k

Q2 2017:
LNW: 845k
TNW: 1060k

Q3 2017:
LNW: 921k
TNW: 1142k

YE 2017:
LNW: 1,012k
TNW: 1,230k

Q1 2018:
LNW: 1.09 MM
TNW: 1.33 MM

Q2 2018:
LNW: 1.16 MM
TNW: 1.45 MM

Q3 2018:
LNW: 1.28 MM
TNW: 1.57 MM

YE 2018:
LNW: 1.14 MM
TNW: 1.43 MM

Q1 2019:
LNW: 1.41 MM
TNW: 1.71 MM

Q2 2019:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.78 MM

Q3 2019:
LNW: 1.64 MM
TNW: 1.82 MM

YE 2019:
LNW: 1.84 MM
TNW: 2.02 MM

Q1 2020:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.79 MM

Q2 2020:
LNW: 1.94 MM
TNW: 2.15 MM

Q3 2020:
LNW: 2.12 MM
TNW: 2.46 MM

YE 2020:
LNW: 2.40 MM
TNW: 2.74 MM

Q1 2021:
LNW: 2.69 MM
TNW: 3.00 MM

Another stellar Q. We are closing on our 'forever' home soon- so about to get a big change in LNW/TNW splits, but excited nonetheless!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ted1858 on April 07, 2021, 12:56:54 PM

Hello there, I am glad to be entering this group. So many folks with great progress in here. $4mm seems so far away!

History:
1/2015: 0.42 MM
1/2016: 0.56 MM
1/2017: 0.84 MM
1/2018: 0.95 MM
1/2019: 1.10 MM
1/2020: 1.47 MM
1/2021: 1.85 MM
4/2021: 2.00 MM

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 07, 2021, 01:05:47 PM

Quote from: ted1858 on April 07, 2021, 12:56:54 PM

Hello there, I am glad to be entering this group. So many folks with great progress in here. $4mm seems so far away!

...
4/2021: 2.00 MM

At US historical average stock market returns, $2M will double to 4 in 7 to 10 years, depending on whether you want to discuss nominal or current dollar value.    And that's if you don't add to it along the way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on April 07, 2021, 04:12:13 PM

Welcome!  That's a very nice smooth looking progression!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 08, 2021, 02:13:44 AM

Got my second shot last night (PFE) so at least that is behind me. Anyone do anything different with there percentage of Bonds in there Portfolio or invest in something else. Alot of discussion and with good reasons in other areas I follow about the Bond market not being good for along time going forward. I have currently went from 60/40 to 65/35/10 (cash or cash type investments). What say you on the topic. Mind you I am Fire'd and 56

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: kivex on April 08, 2021, 03:05:56 AM

Looks like we've joined this club!

Actually caring about our finances started in January 2017 where we started down the MMM path and began the 10 year goal to be FIRE'd. I can't believe how quickly the snowball grows when being financially intentional.

We don't own property due to living in a HCOL area (Sydney, Australia), so our TNW is our LNW. These numbers include superannuation (retirement accounts) with the split approximately one-third in super, two-thirds outside of super.

We have no debt and are 99% invested with the other 1% cash for emergency fund / living expenses etc.

1/2017: $1.54M
1/2018: $1.78M
1/2019: $1.92M
1/2020: $2.58M
1/2021: $2.88M

And currently -

4/2021: $3.16M

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on April 08, 2021, 05:51:32 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 08, 2021, 02:13:44 AM

Got my second shot last night (PFE) so at least that is behind me. Anyone do anything different with there percentage of Bonds in there Portfolio or invest in something else. Alot of discussion and with good reasons in other areas I follow about the Bond market not being good for along time going forward. I have currently went from 60/40 to 65/35/10 (cash or cash type investments). What say you on the topic. Mind you I am Fire'd and 56

Can you share you secret how to get a 110% allocation?  Do you have a money seminar at a steakhouse I can attend bc I want it?  ;) lol

Last year for my bond AA I basically went to all short duration ( maybe 5% in intermediate) or cash.  As 10yr hits 2%, I will start shifting into VFIDX and BND, which really is an intermediate fund bc how the US government irresponsibly funds its debt (mostly short term bc its cheaper).

Sucks to lose to inflation, but Sucks more to lose to duration.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on April 08, 2021, 06:48:54 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on April 08, 2021, 05:51:32 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 08, 2021, 02:13:44 AM

Got my second shot last night (PFE) so at least that is behind me. Anyone do anything different with there percentage of Bonds in there Portfolio or invest in something else. Alot of discussion and with good reasons in other areas I follow about the Bond market not being good for along time going forward. I have currently went from 60/40 to 65/35/10 (cash or cash type investments). What say you on the topic. Mind you I am Fire'd and 56

Can you share you secret how to get a 110% allocation?  Do you have a money seminar at a steakhouse I can attend bc I want it?  ;)

Either...
Leverage (borrow 10% of NW, reinvest)
Or...
Be bad at math

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 08, 2021, 06:52:57 AM

Quote from: jeroly on April 08, 2021, 06:48:54 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on April 08, 2021, 05:51:32 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 08, 2021, 02:13:44 AM

Got my second shot last night (PFE) so at least that is behind me. Anyone do anything different with there percentage of Bonds in there Portfolio or invest in something else. Alot of discussion and with good reasons in other areas I follow about the Bond market not being good for along time going forward. I have currently went from 60/40 to 65/35/10 (cash or cash type investments). What say you on the topic. Mind you I am Fire'd and 56

Can you share you secret how to get a 110% allocation?  Do you have a money seminar at a steakhouse I can attend bc I want it?  ;)

Either...
Leverage (borrow 10% of NW, reinvest)
Or...
Be bad at math

Or typing. Looking at myself here. Shoe definitely fits.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on April 08, 2021, 08:57:37 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 08, 2021, 02:13:44 AM

Got my second shot last night (PFE) so at least that is behind me. Anyone do anything different with there percentage of Bonds in there Portfolio or invest in something else. Alot of discussion and with good reasons in other areas I follow about the Bond market not being good for along time going forward. I have currently went from 60/40 to 65/35/10 (cash or cash type investments). What say you on the topic. Mind you I am Fire'd and 56

I am also fully vaccinated. I am working on a few trips. Late April to the Great Smoky Mountain National Park, late May to Las Vegas and the Utah Grand Circle of National Parks. I am currently monitoring the U.S. re-entry requirements, hope CDC will drop the virus negative test requirements for vaccinated people soon. If that is the case, I will make a few overseas trips in summer.

I am trying to rebalance to bonds, but the stock market constantly pushes me back. Hopefully I will do a big rebalance soon. Another front is to decide if I should retire this year, next year, or some other time. My teaching job is easy with lots of free time, but I still prefer to sleep on my couch than to teach a class. I think it is a problem of money versus laziness.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on April 08, 2021, 12:54:12 PM

We also received our 2nd shots a couple of days ago.  Really happy to be vaccinated.  It really bothers me that getting it is optional, but this isn't a political thread. 


DW wants to get yard work done.  Just built another raised bed for veggies, clearing out and mulching a natural area that was overgrown, and building a flagstone walk to the pier.  I'd like to have hired the work out, but it seems that I "missed the boat" on that, so it's going to be DIY.  We have a pickup & trailer for hauling the mulch & stone, and also a hobby tractor to move it.  I don't mind the exercise, but I've gotten really good at drinking coffee & surfing the web.  <grin>   It'll be nice after it's all done.
Hopefully, I will be able to escape to the mountains after the yardwork here.  I've got a lot of projects up there to finish, and really miss the rustic lifestyle. 


We're heading to the nursery to pick out plants.  :)


Stay safe,

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 09, 2021, 02:59:39 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on April 08, 2021, 05:51:32 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 08, 2021, 02:13:44 AM

Got my second shot last night (PFE) so at least that is behind me. Anyone do anything different with there percentage of Bonds in there Portfolio or invest in something else. Alot of discussion and with good reasons in other areas I follow about the Bond market not being good for along time going forward. I have currently went from 60/40 to 65/35/10 (cash or cash type investments). What say you on the topic. Mind you I am Fire'd and 56

Can you share you secret how to get a 110% allocation?  Do you have a money seminar at a steakhouse I can attend bc I want it?  ;) lol

Last year for my bond AA I basically went to all short duration ( maybe 5% in intermediate) or cash.  As 10yr hits 2%, I will start shifting into VFIDX and BND, which really is an intermediate fund bc how the US government irresponsibly funds its debt (mostly short term bc its cheaper).

Sucks to lose to inflation, but Sucks more to lose to duration.

65/25/10  Good Catch! :-)  yea so I have plenty of cash. My and DW 401k are Bond heavy went from 60 -65 and 10 cash mostly from rise in market and withdrawing more cash than I need but want to have less invested in bonds so I will look at that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 09, 2021, 03:01:24 AM

Quote from: jeroly on April 08, 2021, 06:48:54 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on April 08, 2021, 05:51:32 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 08, 2021, 02:13:44 AM

Got my second shot last night (PFE) so at least that is behind me. Anyone do anything different with there percentage of Bonds in there Portfolio or invest in something else. Alot of discussion and with good reasons in other areas I follow about the Bond market not being good for along time going forward. I have currently went from 60/40 to 65/35/10 (cash or cash type investments). What say you on the topic. Mind you I am Fire'd and 56

Can you share you secret how to get a 110% allocation?  Do you have a money seminar at a steakhouse I can attend bc I want it?  ;)

Either...
Leverage (borrow 10% of NW, reinvest)
Or...
Be bad at math

Being bad at math is only good if its to your advantage! :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 09, 2021, 03:03:27 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on April 08, 2021, 12:54:12 PM

We also received our 2nd shots a couple of days ago.  Really happy to be vaccinated.  It really bothers me that getting it is optional, but this isn't a political thread. 


DW wants to get yard work done.  Just built another raised bed for veggies, clearing out and mulching a natural area that was overgrown, and building a flagstone walk to the pier.  I'd like to have hired the work out, but it seems that I "missed the boat" on that, so it's going to be DIY.  We have a pickup & trailer for hauling the mulch & stone, and also a hobby tractor to move it.  I don't mind the exercise, but I've gotten really good at drinking coffee & surfing the web.  <grin>   It'll be nice after it's all done.
Hopefully, I will be able to escape to the mountains after the yardwork here.  I've got a lot of projects up there to finish, and really miss the rustic lifestyle. 


We're heading to the nursery to pick out plants.  :)


Stay safe,

Quote from: flyingaway on April 08, 2021, 08:57:37 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on April 08, 2021, 02:13:44 AM

Got my second shot last night (PFE) so at least that is behind me. Anyone do anything different with there percentage of Bonds in there Portfolio or invest in something else. Alot of discussion and with good reasons in other areas I follow about the Bond market not being good for along time going forward. I have currently went from 60/40 to 65/35/10 (cash or cash type investments). What say you on the topic. Mind you I am Fire'd and 56

I am also fully vaccinated. I am working on a few trips. Late April to the Great Smoky Mountain National Park, late May to Las Vegas and the Utah Grand Circle of National Parks. I am currently monitoring the U.S. re-entry requirements, hope CDC will drop the virus negative test requirements for vaccinated people soon. If that is the case, I will make a few overseas trips in summer.

I am trying to rebalance to bonds, but the stock market constantly pushes me back. Hopefully I will do a big rebalance soon. Another front is to decide if I should retire this year, next year, or some other time. My teaching job is easy with lots of free time, but I still prefer to sleep on my couch than to teach a class. I think it is a problem of money versus laziness.   

I was doing good with my second shot of Pfizer when I wrote my last math error post and a couple hours later I got a slight fever and the chills for about 6 hours but all good now!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: winkleweizen on April 09, 2021, 11:48:48 PM

march 2019: 1.04m
july 2019:     1.18m
Oct 2019:     1.24m
Feb 2020:     1.42m
April 2020:    1.23m
May 2020:    1.38m
June 2020: 1.45m
July 2020:    1.507m
Sept 2020:  1.695m
Feb 2021: 1.990M
Apr 2021: 2.164 m

Excited to join this group.  Hopefully I stay here!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 10, 2021, 12:10:12 AM

Quote from: winkleweizen on April 09, 2021, 11:48:48 PM

march 2019: 1.04m
july 2019:     1.18m
Oct 2019:     1.24m
Feb 2020:     1.42m
April 2020:    1.23m
May 2020:    1.38m
June 2020: 1.45m
July 2020:    1.507m
Sept 2020:  1.695m
Feb 2021: 1.990M
Apr 2021: 2.164 m

Excited to join this group.  Hopefully I stay here!

IMO, once you've crossed over, as long as you stay invested, you don't have to leave if the market pulls back. Welcome to the club!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 10, 2021, 05:02:39 AM

So I was updating my TSP account snap shots for my meeting with my financial advisor in his planning portals we have our quarterly meeting this week.  TSP does not play well with outside planning software.  In April, my TSP alone has close to double the federal poverty line for a single person.  I might just join the double comma club with it alone by the end of the year and that would be with a return to normal market returns.


(My advisor is Fee only, this month we are going to be discussing what my take home pay will look like with a SFO move and start talking about how much of a cash fund I should build up for transitioning to RE in July of 2025 along with checking my allocation as usual.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on April 12, 2021, 03:02:51 AM

Quote from: winkleweizen on April 09, 2021, 11:48:48 PM

march 2019: 1.04m
july 2019:     1.18m
Oct 2019:     1.24m
Feb 2020:     1.42m
April 2020:    1.23m
May 2020:    1.38m
June 2020: 1.45m
July 2020:    1.507m
Sept 2020:  1.695m
Feb 2021: 1.990M
Apr 2021: 2.164 m

Excited to join this group.  Hopefully I stay here!

Welcome and as Dicey said once to crossover and our in I don't know anyone that would say if you have a set back your out. Doesn't work like that. So again welcome and keep up the good work!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 15, 2021, 04:49:53 AM

Per hopefully my soon to be real estate agent, my total net worth is about $80,000 more than what I see when I look at personal capital right now.  Let’s just say Zillow has been consistently undervaluing my house for the past couple of years.  That will put me in the range of $2.2 million when I potentially sell this summer.  There’s a good chance I’ll rent for the next 4 years which would mean almost all of the equity will be dumped in the market.  (I might just carve out my first years cash for FIRE out early so I don’t have to worry about it between now and July 2025).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MishMash on April 15, 2021, 08:02:41 AM

Oh this market is insane, started the year at 2.2, at 2.3 now and that’s AFTER dropping 185k on a boat (which is not included in the NW numbers).  Also doesn’t include the house value increase of 100k in 2 years, heck one just listed and went pending in two days for 150k more than we paid, same model, our house has more options and a better lot. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on April 15, 2021, 08:03:46 AM

When I joined this group (4 years ago?) I had to use my investments + house + GF's investments + an estimated value of both of our pensions to get over $2MM.  Then I could be here even after dropping my house's value.  Then we were in with just our investments.

Now I checked and realized I could be in this group with only my investments ($1.5MM) + house ($400k) + estimated pension value ($600k) with no help from the GF.   While the growth is crazy, now I am wondering if my investments can hit $2MM by the time my golden handcuffs come off (Dec. 2022).  This snowballing growth has just been breathtaking.   Three of the last four years my investment growth has been more than my gross salary and this year is looking to follow that pattern. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MishMash on April 15, 2021, 08:09:12 AM

Oh and the husband is officially eligible for his 20 year military pension!  He really wants to drop his paperwork but he’s up for promotion and if he works 3 more years it’s an extra 1.5k a month essentially.  He has expensive hobbies....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 15, 2021, 08:55:37 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on April 15, 2021, 08:03:46 AM

When I joined this group (4 years ago?) I had to use my investments + house + GF's investments + an estimated value of both of our pensions to get over $2MM.  Then I could be here even after dropping my house's value.  Then we were in with just our investments.

Now I checked and realized I could be in this group with only my investments ($1.5MM) + house ($400k) + estimated pension value ($600k) with no help from the GF.   While the growth is crazy, now I am wondering if my investments can hit $2MM by the time my golden handcuffs come off (Dec. 2022).  This snowballing growth has just been breathtaking.   Three of the last four years my investment growth has been more than my gross salary and this year is looking to follow that pattern.

I used to do the same kind of calculations too, so this is familiar :-)  Now, I qualify to be in this group simply on basis of my post-tax accounts alone (ie not including IRA and 401K).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 15, 2021, 12:15:49 PM

It's great to be in our positions. Some of us went through many downturns back in the day.  We just kept buying with hope of a better time to come.  The book Dow 36000 had been published and was laughed about.  We hoped the day would come in our lifetimes that the Dow crossed 36000.  Now we know it's almost a certainty.  Our investment net worth alone will exceed 3 million this year.  I don't include real estate since we don't rent them.  What a time to be here in this peer group.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on April 15, 2021, 01:38:38 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 15, 2021, 12:15:49 PM

It's great to be in our positions. Some of us went through many downturns back in the day.  We just kept buying with hope of a better time to come.  The book Dow 36000 had been published and was laughed about.  We hoped the day would come in our lifetimes that the Dow crossed 36000.  Now we know it's almost a certainty.  Our investment net worth alone will exceed 3 million this year.  I don't include real estate since we don't rent them.  What a time to be here in this peer group.

Well it was laughable because it was 1999 and the dow was at around 11k and the prediction was for it to hit 36k between 2002 and 2004.   Still not there yet, but probably will be soon but keep in mind that inflation adjusted from 2002'-2004 to today requires 51-55k. So we are still a bit off. 

If a book comes out "Dow 100,000"  time to sell. Lol

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 15, 2021, 08:33:30 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on April 15, 2021, 01:38:38 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 15, 2021, 12:15:49 PM

It's great to be in our positions. Some of us went through many downturns back in the day.  We just kept buying with hope of a better time to come.  The book Dow 36000 had been published and was laughed about.  We hoped the day would come in our lifetimes that the Dow crossed 36000.  Now we know it's almost a certainty.  Our investment net worth alone will exceed 3 million this year.  I don't include real estate since we don't rent them.  What a time to be here in this peer group.

Well it was laughable because it was 1999 and the dow was at around 11k and the prediction was for it to hit 36k between 2002 and 2004.   Still not there yet, but probably will be soon but keep in mind that inflation adjusted from 2002'-2004 to today requires 51-55k. So we are still a bit off. 

If a book comes out "Dow 100,000"  time to sell. Lol

Some of us will see Dow 100,000.  It's not that far away. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 15, 2021, 08:56:35 PM

Dow Jones was 34,035.99 today.

What does it actually represent today?  I guess industrial production is still rolling along but hasn't expanded as much as the stock market.  The Central Banks have printed a lot of money.  Does that almost automatically drive the price of stocks up?  People have said that money has to find a place to go.

Is it like bitcoin?  There's nothing really behind bitcoin like gold or silver but people are driving the price up just because they want to buy it.  They have faith in it.

Maybe asking these questions could be like poking a big sleeping bear with a stick.  Maybe, it's something I really shouldn't know.  I just need to keep faith in the 4 percent rule and live my life.  Religious folks don't like it when I start nosing around how their beliefs work.  Money is kind of like a religion to many and I should keep the faith.

Keep climbing that mountain folks and you may see a Dow Jones at the lofty golden height of 100,000.  I may not be there with you to see it myself.  Don't give up the dream.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 16, 2021, 05:56:49 AM

Quote from: pecunia on April 15, 2021, 08:56:35 PM

Dow Jones was 34,035.99 today.

What does it actually represent today?  I guess industrial production is still rolling along but hasn't expanded as much as the stock market.  The Central Banks have printed a lot of money.  Does that almost automatically drive the price of stocks up?  People have said that money has to find a place to go.

Is it like bitcoin?  There's nothing really behind bitcoin like gold or silver but people are driving the price up just because they want to buy it.  They have faith in it.

Maybe asking these questions could be like poking a big sleeping bear with a stick.  Maybe, it's something I really shouldn't know.  I just need to keep faith in the 4 percent rule and live my life.  Religious folks don't like it when I start nosing around how their beliefs work.  Money is kind of like a religion to many and I should keep the faith.

Keep climbing that mountain folks and you may see a Dow Jones at the lofty golden height of 100,000.  I may not be there with you to see it myself.  Don't give up the dream.

Those of us that have been investing for multiple decades know it's not a linear progression.  There will be more crashes.  My crash hedge has always been my nearly recession proof job.  That's rapidly coming to an end.  With only about 800 days till I'm living off of savings, faith in ever expanding growth is almost a requirement. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 16, 2021, 07:40:56 AM

Yeh - Get out when you can.  It isn't just money crashes that can happen.  A truck could crash into you.  I guess it'll be 799 days tomorrow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 16, 2021, 10:45:27 AM

1552 days until health care included with pension eligible. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 16, 2021, 11:32:46 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on April 15, 2021, 08:03:46 AM

When I joined this group (4 years ago?) I had to use my investments + house + GF's investments + an estimated value of both of our pensions to get over $2MM.  Then I could be here even after dropping my house's value.  Then we were in with just our investments.

Now I checked and realized I could be in this group with only my investments ($1.5MM) + house ($400k) + estimated pension value ($600k) with no help from the GF.   While the growth is crazy, now I am wondering if my investments can hit $2MM by the time my golden handcuffs come off (Dec. 2022).  This snowballing growth has just been breathtaking.   Three of the last four years my investment growth has been more than my gross salary and this year is looking to follow that pattern.

Last week I did some scratch pad math and realized the combined value of our home and the equity in our 3 single family rentals is over $2.5M. Bonkers to think I could qualify for this thread on RE equity alone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on April 16, 2021, 12:39:12 PM

Quote from: winkleweizen on April 09, 2021, 11:48:48 PM

march 2019: 1.04m
july 2019:     1.18m
Oct 2019:     1.24m
Feb 2020:     1.42m
April 2020:    1.23m
May 2020:    1.38m
June 2020: 1.45m
July 2020:    1.507m
Sept 2020:  1.695m
Feb 2021: 1.990M
Apr 2021: 2.164 m

Excited to join this group.  Hopefully I stay here!

you will have that thought every time you cross another threshold.

we crossed $3mm 3 years ago, April 2018.

since then we've crossed $4, $5, $6, and now over $7mm as of today.  $5.5mm is low cost ETFs, over 50x expenses.

This isn't just market returns - we are 2 high earners, both of whom received significant bonuses and RSU cash outs this year and last year.

But market returns have certainly driven us into the stratosphere.

and btw, it will never feel like enough.  always something to keep you at your desk - healthcare, kids, health in general, market crash "just around the corner", etc.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on April 16, 2021, 01:55:37 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on April 16, 2021, 12:39:12 PM

and btw, it will never feel like enough.  always something to keep you at your desk - healthcare, kids, health in general, market crash "just around the corner", etc.

sounds like a sad existence

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on April 16, 2021, 02:59:10 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on April 16, 2021, 01:55:37 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on April 16, 2021, 12:39:12 PM

and btw, it will never feel like enough.  always something to keep you at your desk - healthcare, kids, health in general, market crash "just around the corner", etc.

sounds like a sad existence

easy trap to fall into when you work with folks with $20mm+.

luckily, lifestyle hasn't inflated accordingly, i still drive used cars, clip coupons, etc.

i am only 41 and have 2 kids under 4 so don't feel sorry for me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on April 17, 2021, 03:52:47 AM

well it looks like were are firmly over 2.5m as a couple.
however we are still working because we are both aiming for individual retirement (estates will each go to our respective kids - not the partner).

However even that is in touching distance.
Me because I still need a few more months to reach my target but I have a fixed and firm, date in mind (less than 12 months though) and management because she's new to the fire concept and is in the process of sorting out her accounts and a trust that was inherited. Mr Collins stock series is being worked on as is the theory of just dropping some of that juicy cash into the market.

At the current rate of progress who knows what figure we'll be at come quitting time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 17, 2021, 04:37:33 AM

Well I just rebalanced my retirement accounts back to 70/30.  On the other hand, I didn’t need to do so with my taxable because I funded my DAF with about 10% of my taxable account (split I. Half In December and January respectively all from the stock funds).  Amazingly there is more money in the account today, and it’s perfectly in balance for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 17, 2021, 05:20:33 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on April 17, 2021, 03:52:47 AM

well it looks like were are firmly over 2.5m as a couple.
however we are still working because we are both aiming for individual retirement (estates will each go to our respective kids - not the partner).

However even that is in touching distance.
Me because I still need a few more months to reach my target but I have a fixed and firm, date in mind (less than 12 months though) and management because she's new to the fire concept and is in the process of sorting out her accounts and a trust that was inherited. Mr Collins stock series is being worked on as is the theory of just dropping some of that juicy cash into the market.

At the current rate of progress who knows what figure we'll be at come quitting time.

I'm thinking we need a physical meet up Florida style in the not so distant future.  We're still working the salt mines in Louisiana a little while longer till we relax in our West coast Florida utopia.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on April 17, 2021, 06:45:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 17, 2021, 05:20:33 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on April 17, 2021, 03:52:47 AM

well it looks like were are firmly over 2.5m as a couple.
however we are still working because we are both aiming for individual retirement (estates will each go to our respective kids - not the partner).

However even that is in touching distance.
Me because I still need a few more months to reach my target but I have a fixed and firm, date in mind (less than 12 months though) and management because she's new to the fire concept and is in the process of sorting out her accounts and a trust that was inherited. Mr Collins stock series is being worked on as is the theory of just dropping some of that juicy cash into the market.

At the current rate of progress who knows what figure we'll be at come quitting time.

I'm thinking we need a physical meet up Florida style in the not so distant future.  We're still working the salt mines in Louisiana a little while longer till we relax in our West coast Florida utopia.

Do you mean that literally?
Back in college I visited a chum who was working in New Iberia, LA who, when he got up in the morning to go to work, said, “Well, it’s off to the salt mine” and meant it literally.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MishMash on April 17, 2021, 11:33:04 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 17, 2021, 05:20:33 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on April 17, 2021, 03:52:47 AM

well it looks like were are firmly over 2.5m as a couple.
however we are still working because we are both aiming for individual retirement (estates will each go to our respective kids - not the partner).

However even that is in touching distance.
Me because I still need a few more months to reach my target but I have a fixed and firm, date in mind (less than 12 months though) and management because she's new to the fire concept and is in the process of sorting out her accounts and a trust that was inherited. Mr Collins stock series is being worked on as is the theory of just dropping some of that juicy cash into the market.

At the current rate of progress who knows what figure we'll be at come quitting time.

I'm thinking we need a physical meet up Florida style in the not so distant future.  We're still working the salt mines in Louisiana a little while longer till we relax in our West coast Florida utopia.

Ha, do it in Tampa and we can go fishing on the husbands stupid new boat *facepalm*

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 17, 2021, 12:59:01 PM

Quote from: jeroly on April 17, 2021, 06:45:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 17, 2021, 05:20:33 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on April 17, 2021, 03:52:47 AM

well it looks like were are firmly over 2.5m as a couple.
however we are still working because we are both aiming for individual retirement (estates will each go to our respective kids - not the partner).

However even that is in touching distance.
Me because I still need a few more months to reach my target but I have a fixed and firm, date in mind (less than 12 months though) and management because she's new to the fire concept and is in the process of sorting out her accounts and a trust that was inherited. Mr Collins stock series is being worked on as is the theory of just dropping some of that juicy cash into the market.

At the current rate of progress who knows what figure we'll be at come quitting time.

I'm thinking we need a physical meet up Florida style in the not so distant future.  We're still working the salt mines in Louisiana a little while longer till we relax in our West coast Florida utopia.

Do you mean that literally?
Back in college I visited a chum who was working in New Iberia, LA who, when he got up in the morning to go to work, said, “Well, it’s off to the salt mine” and meant it literally.

I work in chemical laboratory.  But, the salt domes are pretty neat to visit in New Iberia.  You can sample Tabasco when there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 17, 2021, 01:00:35 PM

Quote from: MishMash on April 17, 2021, 11:33:04 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 17, 2021, 05:20:33 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on April 17, 2021, 03:52:47 AM

well it looks like were are firmly over 2.5m as a couple.
however we are still working because we are both aiming for individual retirement (estates will each go to our respective kids - not the partner).

However even that is in touching distance.
Me because I still need a few more months to reach my target but I have a fixed and firm, date in mind (less than 12 months though) and management because she's new to the fire concept and is in the process of sorting out her accounts and a trust that was inherited. Mr Collins stock series is being worked on as is the theory of just dropping some of that juicy cash into the market.

At the current rate of progress who knows what figure we'll be at come quitting time.

I'm thinking we need a physical meet up Florida style in the not so distant future.  We're still working the salt mines in Louisiana a little while longer till we relax in our West coast Florida utopia.

Ha, do it in Tampa and we can go fishing on the husbands stupid new boat *facepalm*

Well yeah!   We're just inland from Crystal River!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 18, 2021, 02:59:06 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 17, 2021, 12:59:01 PM

Quote from: jeroly on April 17, 2021, 06:45:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 17, 2021, 05:20:33 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on April 17, 2021, 03:52:47 AM

well it looks like were are firmly over 2.5m as a couple.
however we are still working because we are both aiming for individual retirement (estates will each go to our respective kids - not the partner).

However even that is in touching distance.
Me because I still need a few more months to reach my target but I have a fixed and firm, date in mind (less than 12 months though) and management because she's new to the fire concept and is in the process of sorting out her accounts and a trust that was inherited. Mr Collins stock series is being worked on as is the theory of just dropping some of that juicy cash into the market.

At the current rate of progress who knows what figure we'll be at come quitting time.

I'm thinking we need a physical meet up Florida style in the not so distant future.  We're still working the salt mines in Louisiana a little while longer till we relax in our West coast Florida utopia.

Do you mean that literally?
Back in college I visited a chum who was working in New Iberia, LA who, when he got up in the morning to go to work, said, “Well, it’s off to the salt mine” and meant it literally.

I work in chemical laboratory.  But, the salt domes are pretty neat to visit in New Iberia.  You can sample Tabasco when there.

My uncle loved Tabasco sauce when I was a kid and always jokingly offered it to us to put on our dishes. Well into my adult years I thought I hated spicy because I hated Tabasco sauce. It turns out I have white vinegar but love spicy. Thank goodness for oil-based chili sauces galore in Chinese cooking. I’m bummed I missed out on all of those years of spicy food enjoyment because of Tabasco.

Tapatio is a nice non-vinegar alternative.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 18, 2021, 09:51:51 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on April 18, 2021, 02:59:06 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 17, 2021, 12:59:01 PM

Quote from: jeroly on April 17, 2021, 06:45:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 17, 2021, 05:20:33 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on April 17, 2021, 03:52:47 AM

well it looks like were are firmly over 2.5m as a couple.
however we are still working because we are both aiming for individual retirement (estates will each go to our respective kids - not the partner).

However even that is in touching distance.
Me because I still need a few more months to reach my target but I have a fixed and firm, date in mind (less than 12 months though) and management because she's new to the fire concept and is in the process of sorting out her accounts and a trust that was inherited. Mr Collins stock series is being worked on as is the theory of just dropping some of that juicy cash into the market.

At the current rate of progress who knows what figure we'll be at come quitting time.

I'm thinking we need a physical meet up Florida style in the not so distant future.  We're still working the salt mines in Louisiana a little while longer till we relax in our West coast Florida utopia.

Do you mean that literally?
Back in college I visited a chum who was working in New Iberia, LA who, when he got up in the morning to go to work, said, “Well, it’s off to the salt mine” and meant it literally.

I work in chemical laboratory.  But, the salt domes are pretty neat to visit in New Iberia.  You can sample Tabasco when there.

My uncle loved Tabasco sauce when I was a kid and always jokingly offered it to us to put on our dishes. Well into my adult years I thought I hated spicy because I hated Tabasco sauce. It turns out I have white vinegar but love spicy. Thank goodness for oil-based chili sauces galore in Chinese cooking. I’m bummed I missed out on all of those years of spicy food enjoyment because of Tabasco.

Tapatio is a nice non-vinegar alternative.

We love vinegar here in Louisiana.  We pickle everything.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 19, 2021, 11:09:50 AM

I have recently discovered apple cider vinegar, which is a glorious substance that goes in all sorts of things. But white vinegar? Blegh. :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 01:31:12 PM

Something I'm pretty proud of is working for 29 years at the same company and having perfect attendance.  I've never called in sick once.
This morning my wife got sick at work.  She was dizzy and had a fever.  It's my day off so I picked her up.  I took her to an walk in clinic to be Covid tested.  Yes, she's positive for Covid.  I got myself tested.  I'm also positive for Covid. I don't feel particularly bad.  I called my company nurse.  First she said stay home till April 30th.  An hour later she called back and told me to report to work my next shift, that's Wednesday.  I reminded her my test was positive as well as my wife's.  Since we're both vaccinated they think everything is fine to return to work.  My perfect attendance goes on.  I think they are nuts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 19, 2021, 02:03:47 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 01:31:12 PM

Something I'm pretty proud of is working for 29 years at the same company and having perfect attendance.  I've never called in sick once.
This morning my wife got sick at work.  She was dizzy and had a fever.  It's my day off so I picked her up.  I took her to an walk in clinic to be Covid tested.  Yes, she's positive for Covid.  I got myself tested.  I'm also positive for Covid. I don't feel particularly bad.  I called my company nurse.  First she said stay home till April 30th.  An hour later she called back and told me to report to work my next shift, that's Wednesday.  I reminded her my test was positive as well as my wife's.  Since we're both vaccinated they think everything is fine to return to work.  My perfect attendance goes on.  I think they are nuts.

You have FU money.    You could just say no.   It's ok to do that, it's even a Republican thing to do.   :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on April 19, 2021, 02:40:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 01:31:12 PM

Something I'm pretty proud of is working for 29 years at the same company and having perfect attendance.  I've never called in sick once.
This morning my wife got sick at work.  She was dizzy and had a fever.  It's my day off so I picked her up.  I took her to an walk in clinic to be Covid tested.  Yes, she's positive for Covid.  I got myself tested.  I'm also positive for Covid. I don't feel particularly bad.  I called my company nurse.  First she said stay home till April 30th.  An hour later she called back and told me to report to work my next shift, that's Wednesday.  I reminded her my test was positive as well as my wife's.  Since we're both vaccinated they think everything is fine to return to work.  My perfect attendance goes on.  I think they are nuts.

Would you mind telling us when did you and your wife receive what vaccine, and at what stage ( 1st shot, 2nd shot)? That information might help us adjust our behavior and plans.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 02:43:28 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on April 19, 2021, 02:40:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 01:31:12 PM

Something I'm pretty proud of is working for 29 years at the same company and having perfect attendance.  I've never called in sick once.
This morning my wife got sick at work.  She was dizzy and had a fever.  It's my day off so I picked her up.  I took her to an walk in clinic to be Covid tested.  Yes, she's positive for Covid.  I got myself tested.  I'm also positive for Covid. I don't feel particularly bad.  I called my company nurse.  First she said stay home till April 30th.  An hour later she called back and told me to report to work my next shift, that's Wednesday.  I reminded her my test was positive as well as my wife's.  Since we're both vaccinated they think everything is fine to return to work.  My perfect attendance goes on.  I think they are nuts.

Would you mind telling us when did you and your wife receive what vaccine, and at what stage ( 1st shot, 2nd shot)? That information might help us adjust our behavior and plans.

I took the Johnson and Johnson vaccine which is one shit only exactly one month ago.  My wife took the one shot Johnson and Johnson vaccine 9 days ago.  I feel fine but tested positive today.  My wife has fever and dizziness.  She also tested positive today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on April 19, 2021, 02:57:57 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 02:43:28 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on April 19, 2021, 02:40:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 01:31:12 PM

Something I'm pretty proud of is working for 29 years at the same company and having perfect attendance.  I've never called in sick once.
This morning my wife got sick at work.  She was dizzy and had a fever.  It's my day off so I picked her up.  I took her to an walk in clinic to be Covid tested.  Yes, she's positive for Covid.  I got myself tested.  I'm also positive for Covid. I don't feel particularly bad.  I called my company nurse.  First she said stay home till April 30th.  An hour later she called back and told me to report to work my next shift, that's Wednesday.  I reminded her my test was positive as well as my wife's.  Since we're both vaccinated they think everything is fine to return to work.  My perfect attendance goes on.  I think they are nuts.

Would you mind telling us when did you and your wife receive what vaccine, and at what stage ( 1st shot, 2nd shot)? That information might help us adjust our behavior and plans.

I took the Johnson and Johnson vaccine which is one shit only exactly one month ago.  My wife took the one shot Johnson and Johnson vaccine 9 days ago.  I feel fine but tested positive today.  My wife has fever and dizziness.  She also tested positive today.

I have read conflicting reports, but my understanding is that you can still get covid even with the vaccine, it's just your symptoms will be milder.   Your company nurse needs to be strung up to suggest anyone testing positive for Covid come in to work.  IMHO, anyway.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Allie on April 19, 2021, 04:03:22 PM

Quote from: bluebelle on April 19, 2021, 02:57:57 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 02:43:28 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on April 19, 2021, 02:40:14 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 01:31:12 PM

Something I'm pretty proud of is working for 29 years at the same company and having perfect attendance.  I've never called in sick once.
This morning my wife got sick at work.  She was dizzy and had a fever.  It's my day off so I picked her up.  I took her to an walk in clinic to be Covid tested.  Yes, she's positive for Covid.  I got myself tested.  I'm also positive for Covid. I don't feel particularly bad.  I called my company nurse.  First she said stay home till April 30th.  An hour later she called back and told me to report to work my next shift, that's Wednesday.  I reminded her my test was positive as well as my wife's.  Since we're both vaccinated they think everything is fine to return to work.  My perfect attendance goes on.  I think they are nuts.

Would you mind telling us when did you and your wife receive what vaccine, and at what stage ( 1st shot, 2nd shot)? That information might help us adjust our behavior and plans.

I took the Johnson and Johnson vaccine which is one shit only exactly one month ago.  My wife took the one shot Johnson and Johnson vaccine 9 days ago.  I feel fine but tested positive today.  My wife has fever and dizziness.  She also tested positive today.

I have read conflicting reports, but my understand is that you can still get covid even with the vaccine, it's just your systems will be milder.   Your company nurse needs to be strung up to suggest anyone testing positive for Covid come in to work.  IMHO, anyway.

Wasnt j&j at a much lower effectiveness than others?  I mean, if it’s 60-80% effective, and you test positive, and your wife tests positive, and she has symptoms, then you probably have Covid and need to stay home. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 19, 2021, 05:32:10 PM

Bateaux:

If you have the Covid, you could give it to others.Twenty nine perfect years is fine, but if you got someone really sick, well, it kinda takes the shine off of it.

You seem to be a good guy and not really selfish like the media tells us the rich folks are.  Actually, all you people don't seem to fit the stereotype.

I had the double shot thing (not bourbon) and they told me the same thing.  You can still get it, but not as bad.  The vaccine will prevent a hospital stay.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 19, 2021, 05:34:50 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 19, 2021, 05:32:10 PM

Bateaux:

If you have the Covid, you could give it to others.Twenty nine perfect years is fine, but if you got someone really sick, well, it kinda takes the shine off of it.

You seem to be a good guy and not really selfish like the media tells us the rich folks are.  Actually, all you people don't seem to fit the stereotype.

I had the double shot thing (not bourbon) and they told me the same thing.  You can still get it, but not as bad.  The vaccine will prevent a hospital stay.

But it won't prevent a hospital stay or the death of an unvaccinated person you give Covid to.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 06:50:27 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 19, 2021, 05:34:50 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 19, 2021, 05:32:10 PM

Bateaux:

If you have the Covid, you could give it to others.Twenty nine perfect years is fine, but if you got someone really sick, well, it kinda takes the shine off of it.

You seem to be a good guy and not really selfish like the media tells us the rich folks are.  Actually, all you people don't seem to fit the stereotype.

I had the double shot thing (not bourbon) and they told me the same thing.  You can still get it, but not as bad.  The vaccine will prevent a hospital stay.

But it won't prevent a hospital stay or the death of an unvaccinated person you give Covid to.

They are in the process of trying to fire (not our FIRE) a coworker. I don't think they can afford to have me covered right now, so they are encouraging me to go to work even though Covid positive. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 19, 2021, 07:15:18 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 06:50:27 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 19, 2021, 05:34:50 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 19, 2021, 05:32:10 PM

Bateaux:

If you have the Covid, you could give it to others.Twenty nine perfect years is fine, but if you got someone really sick, well, it kinda takes the shine off of it.

You seem to be a good guy and not really selfish like the media tells us the rich folks are.  Actually, all you people don't seem to fit the stereotype.

I had the double shot thing (not bourbon) and they told me the same thing.  You can still get it, but not as bad.  The vaccine will prevent a hospital stay.

But it won't prevent a hospital stay or the death of an unvaccinated person you give Covid to.

They are in the process of trying to fire (not our FIRE) a coworker. I don't think they can afford to have me covered right now, so they are encouraging me to go to work even though Covid positive.

And after you make more people sick, they'll be less able to cover for you.

Fuck them.    This is a CLASSIC EXAMPLE of dumb-ass management decision making.    Don't take part in it.    Surely to Gawd you can recognize that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 19, 2021, 07:16:15 PM

Well - I guess that puts the onus on those in charge.  Their way or the highway.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on April 19, 2021, 07:40:18 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 19, 2021, 07:15:18 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 06:50:27 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 19, 2021, 05:34:50 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 19, 2021, 05:32:10 PM

Bateaux:

If you have the Covid, you could give it to others.Twenty nine perfect years is fine, but if you got someone really sick, well, it kinda takes the shine off of it.

You seem to be a good guy and not really selfish like the media tells us the rich folks are.  Actually, all you people don't seem to fit the stereotype.

I had the double shot thing (not bourbon) and they told me the same thing.  You can still get it, but not as bad.  The vaccine will prevent a hospital stay.

But it won't prevent a hospital stay or the death of an unvaccinated person you give Covid to.

They are in the process of trying to fire (not our FIRE) a coworker. I don't think they can afford to have me covered right now, so they are encouraging me to go to work even though Covid positive.

And after you make more people sick, they'll be less able to cover for you.

Fuck them.    This is a CLASSIC EXAMPLE of dumb-ass management decision making.    Don't take part in it.    Surely to Gawd you can recognize that.

Ditto!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 07:54:22 PM

There is a chance I'll be interviewed by lawyers if they do fire the coworker.  Either the corporate lawyers or the coworker's.  I love being in this position actually.  I can't wait to testify that at the same time they are trying to fire my coworker over some absolute bullshit, they forced me into work with a positive Covid test the same week. 
Having millions gives you a place of fortitude.  The NYSE traded conglomerate I work for has zero respect for us.  They have pissed me off.  Can't wait to see how it goes. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 20, 2021, 07:45:19 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2021, 07:54:22 PM

There is a chance I'll be interviewed by lawyers if they do fire the coworker.  Either the corporate lawyers or the coworker's.  I love being in this position actually.  I can't wait to testify that at the same time they are trying to fire my coworker over some absolute bullshit, they forced me into work with a positive Covid test the same week. 
Having millions gives you a place of fortitude.  The NYSE traded conglomerate I work for has zero respect for us.  They have pissed me off.  Can't wait to see how it goes.

Their kind always win.  The rules are in their favor.  They help write them.  Good Luck!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on April 20, 2021, 08:33:39 AM

Never what I expect clicking on threads...these days

Holy shit.  This has to be the dumbest employer I’ve read about in modern times.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 20, 2021, 10:39:15 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on April 20, 2021, 08:33:39 AM

Never what I expect clicking on threads...these days

Holy shit.  This has to be the dumbest employer I’ve read about in modern times.

It's my job to keep things interesting here.  It gets boring just posting our net worth of the week.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 20, 2021, 03:49:29 PM

The news media reports frivolous lawsuits.  They lead the populace to believe they have recourse in many areas where they often have little to none.  One such area is employment.  I believe most employees of corporations are "At will" employees.  Here's a blurb of what that is all about:

"At-will means that an employer can terminate an employee at any time for any reason, except an illegal one, or for no reason without incurring legal liability.  Likewise, an employee is free to leave a job at any time for any or no reason with no adverse legal consequences."

Here's a link with more on this:

https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/at-will-employment-overview.aspx (https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/at-will-employment-overview.aspx)

Yeh - this FIRE thing allows you to tell them to suck eggs or use more colorful language as I have done in the past.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on April 20, 2021, 04:07:31 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 20, 2021, 03:49:29 PM

The news media reports frivolous lawsuits.  They lead the populace to believe they have recourse in many areas where they often have little to none.  One such area is employment.  I believe most employees of corporations are "At will" employees.  Here's a blurb of what that is all about:

"At-will means that an employer can terminate an employee at any time for any reason, except an illegal one, or for no reason without incurring legal liability.  Likewise, an employee is free to leave a job at any time for any or no reason with no adverse legal consequences."

Here's a link with more on this:

https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/at-will-employment-overview.aspx (https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/at-will-employment-overview.aspx)

Yeh - this FIRE thing allows you to tell them to suck eggs or use more colorful language as I have done in the past.

Self-employment is another good option.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 20, 2021, 04:47:59 PM

@Bateaux - sorry to hear you and your wife have tested positive, but thank you for sharing. Please keep us up to date. Hoping that your experience is mild and at least the vaccine protects you free from more significant symptoms.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: bluebelle on April 20, 2021, 05:49:08 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 20, 2021, 03:49:29 PM

The news media reports frivolous lawsuits.  They lead the populace to believe they have recourse in many areas where they often have little to none.  One such area is employment.  I believe most employees of corporations are "At will" employees.  Here's a blurb of what that is all about:

"At-will means that an employer can terminate an employee at any time for any reason, except an illegal one, or for no reason without incurring legal liability.  Likewise, an employee is free to leave a job at any time for any or no reason with no adverse legal consequences."

Here's a link with more on this:

https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/at-will-employment-overview.aspx (https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/at-will-employment-overview.aspx)

Yeh - this FIRE thing allows you to tell them to suck eggs or use more colorful language as I have done in the past.

the first time I had a US colleague tell me that they lived in an 'at-will' state I was floored.....long term employees can be walked out the door at the employers whim....holy f-ing shit!!!!!   I live in a country that provides employees with far more protections. 

first paragraph of the link you provided:
"Employment relationships are presumed to be “at-will” in all U.S. states except Montana.  The U.S. is one of a handful of countries where employment is predominantly at-will.  Most countries throughout the world allow employers to dismiss employees only for cause.   Some reasons given for our retention of the at-will presumption include respect for freedom of contract, employer deference, and the belief that both employers and employees favor an at-will employment relationship over job security.   "

Most countries in the world protect employees far better than that.....If an employer wants to lay someone off, or let them go without cause, they have to pay.   Depending on the circumstance it can we as little as a week per year of service to more than a month per year of service.   And older employees with a specialised skillset will be at the higher end - as the courts recognize that a 50-60 something year old in a highly skilled but niche market will have trouble finding equivalent employment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 21, 2021, 05:22:44 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 20, 2021, 04:47:59 PM

@Bateaux - sorry to hear you and your wife have tested positive, but thank you for sharing. Please keep us up to date. Hoping that your experience is mild and at least the vaccine protects you free from more significant symptoms.

Decided I'm going to stay home from work.  Woke up with a cough this morning.  No fever.  My wife is feeling a little better.  I'm sure we'll both clear in a few days.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 21, 2021, 07:37:08 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 21, 2021, 05:22:44 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 20, 2021, 04:47:59 PM

@Bateaux - sorry to hear you and your wife have tested positive, but thank you for sharing. Please keep us up to date. Hoping that your experience is mild and at least the vaccine protects you free from more significant symptoms.

Decided I'm going to stay home from work.  Woke up with a cough this morning.  No fever.  My wife is feeling a little better.  I'm sure we'll both clear in a few days.

Even if you take it as vacation, I'm proud a' you, man! Go, Bateaux!!!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on April 21, 2021, 04:14:40 PM

Good call :)

For what it's worth, thank you on behalf of all the unvaccinated and recently-vaccinated folks out there!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 22, 2021, 06:43:29 PM

Hope your bout with the Rona is short and mild, Bateaux. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: amberfocus on April 24, 2021, 09:44:58 PM

Hi everyone! I'm so excited to be able to join the big kids' table! :D This past week, I've finally managed to muscle past $2MM in personal LNW without counting home equity or the SO's assets. I keep adding up the numbers and expecting some sort of math error, but somehow, it's actually real (...at least for now). Which is just unreal. :)

All I can say is, I am so thankful to my prescient 21-year-old self for deciding to go all-in on compound interest. The past fifteen years of shoveling every single spare penny into Vanguard until I'm blue in the face has finally paid off.

I'm gonna go sit over there in the corner now... far, far away from Bateaux. ;) (But in all seriousness -- I hope Bateaux and wife make a speedy recovery!) I'm fully expecting market fluctuations to dunk me back under in the very near future, but I'm gonna enjoy this multimillionaire status for as long as it lasts. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 25, 2021, 05:44:51 AM

Quote from: amberfocus on April 24, 2021, 09:44:58 PM

Hi everyone! I'm so excited to be able to join the big kids' table! :D This past week, I've finally managed to muscle past $2MM in personal LNW without counting home equity or the SO's assets. I keep adding up the numbers and expecting some sort of math error, but somehow, it's actually real (...at least for now). Which is just unreal. :)

All I can say is, I am so thankful to my prescient 21-year-old self for deciding to go all-in on compound interest. The past fifteen years of shoveling every single spare penny into Vanguard until I'm blue in the face has finally paid off.

I'm gonna go sit over there in the corner now... far, far away from Bateaux. ;) (But in all seriousness -- I hope Bateaux and wife make a speedy recovery!) I'm fully expecting market fluctuations to dunk me back under in the very near future, but I'm gonna enjoy this multimillionaire status for as long as it lasts. :)

It is said that Albert Einstein called compound interest the eighth wonder of the world.

Here's a very basic story quoting that.  https://www.inc.com/jim-schleckser/why-einstein-considered-compound-interest-most-powerful-force-in-universe.html (https://www.inc.com/jim-schleckser/why-einstein-considered-compound-interest-most-powerful-force-in-universe.html)

I question the value of saving every spare penny in one's youth, but I guess it worked for you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 25, 2021, 03:08:29 PM

I'm doing much better with Covid.  Was able to bike 10 miles Thursday and 40 miles Friday.  Never got bear any people but pumped a lot of air in my lungs.
My wife is having a rough time.  Hopefully she'll be okay soon. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: amberfocus on April 25, 2021, 09:21:30 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 25, 2021, 05:44:51 AM

I question the value of saving every spare penny in one's youth, but I guess it worked for you.

Most people would absolutely agree with you. How does that saying go again? "Wisdom is wasted on the old, and youth is wasted on the young"?

Quote from: Bateaux on April 25, 2021, 03:08:29 PM

I'm doing much better with Covid.  Was able to bike 10 miles Thursday and 40 miles Friday.  Never got bear any people but pumped a lot of air in my lungs.
My wife is having a rough time.  Hopefully she'll be okay soon. 

I'm so glad to hear that you're feeling good enough to bike, and fresh air is lovely. But it's also okay to take it easy for a bit. I know someone who had cardiac arrhythmias after contracting Covid. Is your wife a candidate for monoclonal antibody treatment?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 26, 2021, 02:35:49 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 25, 2021, 03:08:29 PM

I'm doing much better with Covid.  Was able to bike 10 miles Thursday and 40 miles Friday.  Never got bear any people but pumped a lot of air in my lungs.
My wife is having a rough time.  Hopefully she'll be okay soon.

Very glad to see you on the mend! Best wishes for your wife too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 26, 2021, 12:30:56 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 25, 2021, 03:08:29 PM

I'm doing much better with Covid.  Was able to bike 10 miles Thursday and 40 miles Friday.  Never got bear any people but pumped a lot of air in my lungs.
My wife is having a rough time.  Hopefully she'll be okay soon.

Glad you guys are doing better!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 27, 2021, 05:44:06 AM

In anticipation of freeing up W2 cash flow, I’ve been transitioning my five monthly credit card donations to some charities to being funded with my DAF (which I fund via donations of appreciated securities).  It’s going to be a process because it looks like 3 of them I’m going to have to call pay pal about to make the switch.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 27, 2021, 07:27:42 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 26, 2021, 12:30:56 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 25, 2021, 03:08:29 PM

I'm doing much better with Covid.  Was able to bike 10 miles Thursday and 40 miles Friday.  Never got bear any people but pumped a lot of air in my lungs.
My wife is having a rough time.  Hopefully she'll be okay soon.

Glad you guys are doing better!

Rode another 35 miles yesterday.  If retirement is like quarantine, I'll need to increase the bike tire budget

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 27, 2021, 08:24:19 PM

No biking today.  Did a 12 mile walk instead.  I've got to start walking more. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 27, 2021, 09:41:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 27, 2021, 08:24:19 PM

No biking today.  Did a 12 mile walk instead.  I've got to start walking more.

Did eight miles at high altitude. Felt like twelve.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 28, 2021, 04:10:59 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 27, 2021, 09:41:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 27, 2021, 08:24:19 PM

No biking today.  Did a 12 mile walk instead.  I've got to start walking more.

Did eight miles at high altitude. Felt like twelve.

An altitude eight is more than equal to a sea level twelve.  That's awesome Dicey.  You must really be fit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on April 28, 2021, 05:07:25 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2021, 04:10:59 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 27, 2021, 09:41:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 27, 2021, 08:24:19 PM

No biking today.  Did a 12 mile walk instead.  I've got to start walking more.

Did eight miles at high altitude. Felt like twelve.

An altitude eight is more than equal to a sea level twelve.  That's awesome Dicey.  You must really be fit.

I was at 7,000 feet in Arizona last week. compared to my normal 60 foot elevation in Florida. the difference was crazy!! not used to that sort of change anymore!!
respect to anyone hitting big mileage at those levels. I did not do 8 miles or 12.. more like 2 :(


@Bateaux sorry I didn't reply earlier - was out of town. Florida meetup at some point - that'd be cool. have to look into a suitable meeting point north of tampa maybe? coastal? no Idea when though. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 28, 2021, 06:31:18 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on April 28, 2021, 05:07:25 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2021, 04:10:59 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 27, 2021, 09:41:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 27, 2021, 08:24:19 PM

No biking today.  Did a 12 mile walk instead.  I've got to start walking more.

Did eight miles at high altitude. Felt like twelve.

An altitude eight is more than equal to a sea level twelve.  That's awesome Dicey.  You must really be fit.

I was at 7,000 feet in Arizona last week. compared to my normal 60 foot elevation in Florida. the difference was crazy!! not used to that sort of change anymore!!
respect to anyone hitting big mileage at those levels. I did not do 8 miles or 12.. more like 2 :(


@Bateaux sorry I didn't reply earlier - was out of town. Florida meetup at some point - that'd be cool. have to look into a suitable meeting point north of tampa maybe? coastal? no Idea when though.

All you folks are tough.  I used to get bad headaches when I hiked in the North Cascades a few years back.  I didn't understand about the altitude thing.  You are all inspiring me to do more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 28, 2021, 08:53:14 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on April 28, 2021, 05:07:25 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2021, 04:10:59 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 27, 2021, 09:41:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 27, 2021, 08:24:19 PM

No biking today.  Did a 12 mile walk instead.  I've got to start walking more.

Did eight miles at high altitude. Felt like twelve.

An altitude eight is more than equal to a sea level twelve.  That's awesome Dicey.  You must really be fit.

I was at 7,000 feet in Arizona last week. compared to my normal 60 foot elevation in Florida. the difference was crazy!! not used to that sort of change anymore!!
respect to anyone hitting big mileage at those levels. I did not do 8 miles or 12.. more like 2 :(


@Bateaux sorry I didn't reply earlier - was out of town. Florida meetup at some point - that'd be cool. have to look into a suitable meeting point north of tampa maybe? coastal? no Idea when though.

I'm not there permanently yet.  We'll make it a future event. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on April 28, 2021, 08:56:44 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2021, 08:53:14 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on April 28, 2021, 05:07:25 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2021, 04:10:59 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 27, 2021, 09:41:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 27, 2021, 08:24:19 PM

No biking today.  Did a 12 mile walk instead.  I've got to start walking more.

Did eight miles at high altitude. Felt like twelve.

An altitude eight is more than equal to a sea level twelve.  That's awesome Dicey.  You must really be fit.

I was at 7,000 feet in Arizona last week. compared to my normal 60 foot elevation in Florida. the difference was crazy!! not used to that sort of change anymore!!
respect to anyone hitting big mileage at those levels. I did not do 8 miles or 12.. more like 2 :(


@Bateaux sorry I didn't reply earlier - was out of town. Florida meetup at some point - that'd be cool. have to look into a suitable meeting point north of tampa maybe? coastal? no Idea when though.

I'm not there permanently yet.  We'll make it a future event.

No problem!
I still have this anchor tied to me called work as well.... for now..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 28, 2021, 09:50:18 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2021, 04:10:59 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 27, 2021, 09:41:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 27, 2021, 08:24:19 PM

No biking today.  Did a 12 mile walk instead.  I've got to start walking more.

Did eight miles at high altitude. Felt like twelve.

An altitude eight is more than equal to a sea level twelve.  That's awesome Dicey.  You must really be fit.

We're at 8,000 feet. We take chlorophyll for about a week before the trip, which helps. We also drove this time, which gave us two days to adjust. We'll be here for two weeks, so next week should be a lot more comfortable. The highest peak here is 11,200. We did it last trip, but we're kinda happy the mountain just closed and there's still too much snow for hiking. Next time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Hijinks on April 28, 2021, 11:47:25 AM

Quote from: amberfocus on April 25, 2021, 09:21:30 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 25, 2021, 05:44:51 AM

I question the value of saving every spare penny in one's youth, but I guess it worked for you.

Most people would absolutely agree with you. How does that saying go again? "Wisdom is wasted on the old, and youth is wasted on the young"?

I think aggressively saving during one's youth is where it's at! Plus, you're only 36 - that's still youth in my opinion! Or maybe I'm just saying that to make myself feel better since I'm 37. ;) Seriously though, saving 2MM in liquid net worth on your own by the age of 36? That is so bad ass! HUGE congratulations! We reached 2MM in liquid net worth earlier this year, but my husband and I have joint finances, so I didn't do it alone. At the age of 37, I feel so much levity and freedom where it comes to finances. Because of what I did in my 20s (like you, shoveling every spare penny into Vanguard funds), we could probably quit our jobs today and be fine. But we both generally like our jobs, and I no longer intend to RE (he never intended to RE), so our focus is really on FI. It feels like the hard work is largely done from a financial perspective, and everything is kind of automated at this point. How do you feel? Do you feel a sense of levity and security?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 28, 2021, 02:37:02 PM

Quote from: Hijinks on April 28, 2021, 11:47:25 AM

Quote from: amberfocus on April 25, 2021, 09:21:30 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 25, 2021, 05:44:51 AM

I question the value of saving every spare penny in one's youth, but I guess it worked for you.

Most people would absolutely agree with you. How does that saying go again? "Wisdom is wasted on the old, and youth is wasted on the young"?

I think aggressively saving during one's youth is where it's at! Plus, you're only 36 - that's still youth in my opinion! Or maybe I'm just saying that to make myself feel better since I'm 37. ;) Seriously though, saving 2MM in liquid net worth on your own by the age of 36? That is so bad ass! HUGE congratulations! We reached 2MM in liquid net worth earlier this year, but my husband and I have joint finances, so I didn't do it alone. At the age of 37, I feel so much levity and freedom where it comes to finances. Because of what I did in my 20s (like you, shoveling every spare penny into Vanguard funds), we could probably quit our jobs today and be fine. But we both generally like our jobs, and I no longer intend to RE (he never intended to RE), so our focus is really on FI. It feels like the hard work is largely done from a financial perspective, and everything is kind of automated at this point. How do you feel? Do you feel a sense of levity and security?

You are probably correct.  I wish I had been in a position to tell my employer when I was 36 to take a long hike to unmentionable places.  And,.....all the years of compounding that money in the years to come.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on April 28, 2021, 02:52:59 PM

The altitude thing is tough. In the beginning-ish part of my career I travelled to the Denver area on a regular basis for work. I even lived and worked there twice, once for a summer, once for 7 months. It was disheartening to think I was in good shape in CA and then find myself huffing and puffing going up a flight of stairs in Denver. After moving back there was about a week where running in CA felt like I was dancing on clouds, it was so easy. Very understandable why the olympic training facility is in the mountains up there.

I haven't hear of the chlorophyll thing before, @Dicey . That is interesting. The only thing I seem to remember is someone advising running between telephone poles - jog from one pole to the next, sprint from the 2nd to the 3rd, and keep alternating. I never put it to the test myself.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on April 28, 2021, 03:42:36 PM

I am very bad at altitude.  I tend to get nauseous (even up European mountains, which are generally not that tall) and very woozy/dizzy even at quite low altitudes that don't affect people I'm travelling with. 

I remember arriving in Jasper (less than 4,000ft) with a friend on a student holiday, splitting up in the supermarket with half the list each, and her finding me still in the vegetable aisle about 20 minutes later with a carrot in one hand and a plastic bag in the other, not quite being able to figure out how to put the carrot in the bag.  I did acclimatise enough by the next day to do some walking and rafting though!

We have friends in Denver and hope to visit in the next few years now our kids are old enough to consider a long flight... but I have gone seriously loopy the one time I visited Breckenridge (quite a bit higher right?) - basically spent most of the trip sleeping - so hopefully Denver will be a bit more manageable!  Maybe I should try the chlorophyll thing.

I hope Mrs Bateaux is doing better @Bateaux ?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 28, 2021, 06:54:10 PM

Quote from: LightTripper on April 28, 2021, 03:42:36 PM

I am very bad at altitude.  I tend to get nauseous (even up European mountains, which are generally not that tall) and very woozy/dizzy even at quite low altitudes that don't affect people I'm travelling with. 

I remember arriving in Jasper (less than 4,000ft) with a friend on a student holiday, splitting up in the supermarket with half the list each, and her finding me still in the vegetable aisle about 20 minutes later with a carrot in one hand and a plastic bag in the other, not quite being able to figure out how to put the carrot in the bag.  I did acclimatise enough by the next day to do some walking and rafting though!

We have friends in Denver and hope to visit in the next few years now our kids are old enough to consider a long flight... but I have gone seriously loopy the one time I visited Breckenridge (quite a bit higher right?) - basically spent most of the trip sleeping - so hopefully Denver will be a bit more manageable!  Maybe I should try the chlorophyll thing.

I hope Mrs Bateaux is doing better @Bateaux ?

She's doing much better now.  Thank you for asking.

Speaking of altitude.  I hope to climb Kilimanjaro.  Over 19,000 feet.  Probably will be after full retirement.  I'll probably spend a few weeks in the rocky mountains prior to doing so.  Then fly from Denver.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on April 29, 2021, 07:47:26 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2021, 06:54:10 PM

Quote from: LightTripper on April 28, 2021, 03:42:36 PM

I hope Mrs Bateaux is doing better @Bateaux ?

She's doing much better now.  Thank you for asking.

Speaking of altitude.  I hope to climb Kilimanjaro.  Over 19,000 feet.  Probably will be after full retirement.  I'll probably spend a few weeks in the rocky mountains prior to doing so.  Then fly from Denver.

My husband is tackling mountian hiking/climbing in our FIR years.   We had Mt Kenya in the works for 2020, but you know how that went.  Also there's a peak near Marrakesh in the Atlas Mountains that was coming up on the trip plans.  I'm not sure when we'll go abroad again, but the motivation is high.  Since we didn't retire early, we've got to keep the pedal to the metal!   Recently he's done Mt Whitney, a few high peaks in So Cal, and just got a lottery for Half Dome in Yosemite.   He needs to acclimate slowly or he feels a bit nauseaous.  I'm not a climber, but I'm eyeing a horse riding trip in Mongolia when the world opens back up.   FI rocks!    Who says retirement is boring?  Not us! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 29, 2021, 08:14:44 AM

Things don't change.  All you mountain climbers.  When I was a kid I knew people that wanted to stop working and get high too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 29, 2021, 09:15:49 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on April 29, 2021, 07:47:26 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 28, 2021, 06:54:10 PM

Quote from: LightTripper on April 28, 2021, 03:42:36 PM

I hope Mrs Bateaux is doing better @Bateaux ?

She's doing much better now.  Thank you for asking.

Speaking of altitude.  I hope to climb Kilimanjaro.  Over 19,000 feet.  Probably will be after full retirement.  I'll probably spend a few weeks in the rocky mountains prior to doing so.  Then fly from Denver.

My husband is tackling mountian hiking/climbing in our FIR years.   We had Mt Kenya in the works for 2020, but you know how that went.  Also there's a peak near Marrakesh in the Atlas Mountains that was coming up on the trip plans.  I'm not sure when we'll go abroad again, but the motivation is high.  Since we didn't retire early, we've got to keep the pedal to the metal!   Recently he's done Mt Whitney, a few high peaks in So Cal, and just got a lottery for Half Dome in Yosemite.   He needs to acclimate slowly or he feels a bit nauseaous.  I'm not a climber, but I'm eyeing a horse riding trip in Mongolia when the world opens back up.   FI rocks!    Who says retirement is boring?  Not us!

That's awesome.  I love being part of a group as active as you all are.
 My last 14er was in 2016.  There have been a few things in the way since then.  A major flood of our home.  Then the purchase of the Florida house.  Then Covid.  It's still possible I'll get out west this year.   My years of going to altitude are getting short.  Being off these two weeks with quarantine have been good.  The 790 days till retirement are passing very quickly.  I can't imagine how fast retirement days will pass.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 29, 2021, 06:23:33 PM

Half Dome is a trip. I hiked it three times in college before the permits were required. Take leather gloves for the cables. Maybe even a harness or belt with two clip in points. You don’t really need to clip in (I never did, but I was young and invincible), but it is possible to fall and die.  A friend was up there when someone tumbled down between the cables, hit his head, and didn’t wake up.

I don’t mean to scare you. It’s a fun adventure. Enjoy!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 29, 2021, 08:14:46 PM

In general I seem to acclimate to altitude pretty quickly.  I wonder if it’s the years of competitive swimming as a kid?  I hope the trend continues.

In other news, I had a semi interview for our San Francisco spot.  I had about 20 seconds to prepare.  I think I did good enough.  Did find out the office is looking to move to Walnut Creek, so now I’m back looking harder at Oakland again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 30, 2021, 08:28:44 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on April 29, 2021, 08:14:46 PM

In general I seem to acclimate to altitude pretty quickly.  I wonder if it’s the years of competitive swimming as a kid?  I hope the trend continues.

In other news, I had a semi interview for our San Francisco spot.  I had about 20 seconds to prepare.  I think I did good enough.  Did find out the office is looking to move to Walnut Creek, so now I’m back looking harder at Oakland again.

Walnut Creek has my kind of mountain, Mount Diablo.  You can drive to the top and the air is thick.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeromedawg on April 30, 2021, 03:37:55 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 29, 2021, 06:23:33 PM

Half Dome is a trip. I hiked it three times in college before the permits were required. Take leather gloves for the cables. Maybe even a harness or belt with two clip in points. You don’t really need to clip in (I never did, but I was young and invincible), but it is possible to fall and die.  A friend was up there when someone tumbled down between the cables, hit his head, and didn’t wake up.

I don’t mean to scare you. It’s a fun adventure. Enjoy!

Agreed. I did it once and that was enough LOL. Ditto on the gloves too. But yea, there are plenty of other hikes you can do to get a view without dying... Mt Whitney is one of them; well, except when the clouds roll in and the lightning comes (tip: don't try to hide in the shelter w/ the metal roof @ Summit) hahahaha.

The whole time my wife and I were afraid of losing our grip and dying. It was nice once we got up there though. It was even more of a trip going back down and having to climb over the edge.

It's especially scary once the wind starts blowing. One of our friends lost his hat.

I can't believe the people who think it's a great idea to take a selfie....smh

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 30, 2021, 05:27:01 PM

In 2017 I climbed to Mordor, (Tongariro Crossing in New Zealand). I forgot mittens.  It was day 2 of a multi day hike.  I used a pair of wool socks from my backpack.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 30, 2021, 09:39:25 PM

The cables wouldn’t be so bad if you didn’t have to step up a 2 foot layer/flake of granite right at the steepest part where the slope is about 50 degrees. Also, fewer people on the cables makes it a lot better. The permit limits should help, but it’s best if you get up there early.

One of the times up there I sat on the edge and dangled my feet over. It made a great photo. Terrible idea, though. Would be a shame to fall off. I don’t recommend doing that - sitting on the edge or falling off.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: amberfocus on April 30, 2021, 11:37:10 PM

Quote from: Hijinks on April 28, 2021, 11:47:25 AM

I think aggressively saving during one's youth is where it's at! Plus, you're only 36 - that's still youth in my opinion! Or maybe I'm just saying that to make myself feel better since I'm 37. ;) Seriously though, saving 2MM in liquid net worth on your own by the age of 36? That is so bad ass! HUGE congratulations! We reached 2MM in liquid net worth earlier this year, but my husband and I have joint finances, so I didn't do it alone. At the age of 37, I feel so much levity and freedom where it comes to finances. Because of what I did in my 20s (like you, shoveling every spare penny into Vanguard funds), we could probably quit our jobs today and be fine. But we both generally like our jobs, and I no longer intend to RE (he never intended to RE), so our focus is really on FI. It feels like the hard work is largely done from a financial perspective, and everything is kind of automated at this point.

One of the fundamental insights that I gained (from reading The Millionaire Next Door) was that financial independence was not the same as financial solvency. Once I realized that having money wasn't just about being able to pay the bills, it was about freedom, that changed my entire worldview. Freedom felt so much more valuable than some consumer doodad that you buy. And I understood that in order to leverage compound interest, you have to front-load as much seed capital as possible. Feeding the Vanguard account became the only course of action that made sense. I sacrificed a lot, but I would absolutely do it all over again.

Quote from: Hijinks on April 28, 2021, 11:47:25 AM

How do you feel? Do you feel a sense of levity and security?

Truth be told, my feelings are a bit complicated right now, haha. I'm about to FIRE in three weeks, and I'm bipolar-ing between sheer terror and utter tranquility. Mentally swapping the source of my sense of financial security from my job to my stash feels like a crazy leap of faith. (It doesn't help that I'm terrified of heights IRL.) But our numbers are rock solid and I'm about to set my workplace on fire (and not the fun kind of FIRE... or maybe exactly that kind of FIRE... heh), so it's definitely time to go. Making the decision to jump despite being scared shitless of heights means that deep down, I truly trust the safety net. Being able to buy back your time and your life is priceless.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 01, 2021, 05:14:05 AM

Quote from: amberfocus on April 30, 2021, 11:37:10 PM

- SNIP -


Truth be told, my feelings are a bit complicated right now, haha. I'm about to FIRE in three weeks, and I'm bipolar-ing between sheer terror and utter tranquility. Mentally swapping the source of my sense of financial security from my job to my stash feels like a crazy leap of faith. (It doesn't help that I'm terrified of heights IRL.) But our numbers are rock solid and I'm about to set my workplace on fire (and not the fun kind of FIRE... or maybe exactly that kind of FIRE... heh), so it's definitely time to go. Making the decision to jump despite being scared shitless of heights means that deep down, I truly trust the safety net. Being able to buy back your time and your life is priceless.

Being only 36 - You can go back to work providing you haven't severely burnt your bridges.  Human resource people will not give you the age discrimination that you would become aware of if you were older.  And,.....even then being older there may still be opportunities just not as many.  People in far less secure situations than yours quit every day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: FireLane on May 01, 2021, 09:03:08 AM

My NW passed $2.5 million for the first time this month. It's amazing how fast it's grown over the past year, but I guess that's the snowball of compounding in action.

Also, I made some fortuitously timed investments near the bottom of the pandemic crash. I can't claim to be a brilliant trader, it was the same mindless buy-and-hold strategy I've been following all along. But that just shows why you shouldn't try to outsmart the market. How many people foresaw it bouncing back as strongly as it did?

I'm out of excuses for not quitting my job, so I'm planning to FIRE this summer. I should be able to live on a 3% or less WR without too much trouble. Even in these times of dizzy market valuations and health-care uncertainty, I think that'll be just about untouchable.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: chasesfish on May 01, 2021, 03:45:27 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 01, 2021, 05:14:05 AM

Quote from: amberfocus on April 30, 2021, 11:37:10 PM

- SNIP -


Truth be told, my feelings are a bit complicated right now, haha. I'm about to FIRE in three weeks, and I'm bipolar-ing between sheer terror and utter tranquility. Mentally swapping the source of my sense of financial security from my job to my stash feels like a crazy leap of faith. (It doesn't help that I'm terrified of heights IRL.) But our numbers are rock solid and I'm about to set my workplace on fire (and not the fun kind of FIRE... or maybe exactly that kind of FIRE... heh), so it's definitely time to go. Making the decision to jump despite being scared shitless of heights means that deep down, I truly trust the safety net. Being able to buy back your time and your life is priceless.

Being only 36 - You can go back to work providing you haven't severely burnt your bridges.  Human resource people will not give you the age discrimination that you would become aware of if you were older.  And,.....even then being older there may still be opportunities just not as many.  People in far less secure situations than yours quit every day.

I second this.  I FIREd on the month of my 27th birthday.  It's now been 24.5 months (or 106 weeks, but who's counting) and still get job offers thrown my way

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 01, 2021, 08:41:37 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 29, 2021, 06:23:33 PM

Half Dome is a trip. I hiked it three times in college before the permits were required. Take leather gloves for the cables. Maybe even a harness or belt with two clip in points. You don’t really need to clip in (I never did, but I was young and invincible), but it is possible to fall and die.  A friend was up there when someone tumbled down between the cables, hit his head, and didn’t wake up.

I don’t mean to scare you. It’s a fun adventure. Enjoy!

When I did Half Dome, the would rangers dump a huge pile of gloves at the base of the cables. You just grabbed two random glives and went for it. Do they not do that any more?

I found the granite approach to the cables, where the rock slopes away in all four directions, scary as hell. It was harder to push myself across that expanse than to ascend the cables, by far. However, on the descent, I turned around and faced the wall. Facing out was too nerve racking.

Also, there were people doing the cables in fucking flip flops, and I do not mean Tevas or Merills. How they didn't die is beyond me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: amberfocus on May 02, 2021, 10:13:22 PM

Quote from: chasesfish on May 01, 2021, 03:45:27 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 01, 2021, 05:14:05 AM

Quote from: amberfocus on April 30, 2021, 11:37:10 PM

- SNIP -


Truth be told, my feelings are a bit complicated right now, haha. I'm about to FIRE in three weeks, and I'm bipolar-ing between sheer terror and utter tranquility. Mentally swapping the source of my sense of financial security from my job to my stash feels like a crazy leap of faith. (It doesn't help that I'm terrified of heights IRL.) But our numbers are rock solid and I'm about to set my workplace on fire (and not the fun kind of FIRE... or maybe exactly that kind of FIRE... heh), so it's definitely time to go. Making the decision to jump despite being scared shitless of heights means that deep down, I truly trust the safety net. Being able to buy back your time and your life is priceless.

Being only 36 - You can go back to work providing you haven't severely burnt your bridges.  Human resource people will not give you the age discrimination that you would become aware of if you were older.  And,.....even then being older there may still be opportunities just not as many.  People in far less secure situations than yours quit every day.

I second this.  I FIREd on the month of my 27th birthday.  It's now been 24.5 months (or 106 weeks, but who's counting) and still get job offers thrown my way

Yes, those are excellent points. In case of catastrophic portfolio failure, I have marketable skills in my old field; I can contract/temp; one of my co-workers (who is very confused by what I'm doing and possibly thinks I'm in need of therapy) is already referring me to consulting job openings; heck, even a shitty minimum wage or gig economy job would suffice because our spend is so low. It's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. Deep breath... it's gonna be fine. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: evme on May 03, 2021, 03:02:54 AM

Just curious, for people in this group, what percentage of your net worth does your primary residence represent? For me it'd be something like 5-10% (depends on if you calculate based on price paid or current value), but I'm wondering if that is typical or not among MMM'ers. 

As I've gained NW it has gotten more and more tempting to "upgrade" my lifestyle, and particularly in regards to having a nicer house. So far I have resisted but I've been tempted more and more of late.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 03, 2021, 05:15:45 AM

Quote from: evme on May 03, 2021, 03:02:54 AM

Just curious, for people in this group, what percentage of your net worth does your primary residence represent? For me it'd be something like 5-10% (depends on if you calculate based on price paid or current value), but I'm wondering if that is typical or not among MMM'ers. 

A lot of home features seem like they would be great but are actually meaningless.    You won't use them and they are just something to pay to maintain.

Other features will really improve the quality of your life.

And the answer for which is truly which is up to you and your family.  :)   

As for your question, our home is 12.6% of our net worth.   It's only that high because we made a point of paying it off last year, 10 months after we bought it.   We're FIRED.   Selling our old house and few other non-money making properties, plus paying of our new home, dropped our annual expenditure by a bit over $50k.   (It's early and I forget how much over.)  Basically, in a normal expenditure year it dropped our withdrawal rate to below 0%.

So, it eliminated the sequence of returns risk and meant we didn't really have to watch the pennies to stay within an affordable spend rate.  The former lets me sleep easier and the latter improved our quality of life, we don't feel financially constrained like we did before.  (We knew we were rich but we didn't feel rich.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on May 03, 2021, 05:36:09 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 03, 2021, 05:15:45 AM

Quote from: evme on May 03, 2021, 03:02:54 AM

Just curious, for people in this group, what percentage of your net worth does your primary residence represent? For me it'd be something like 5-10% (depends on if you calculate based on price paid or current value), but I'm wondering if that is typical or not among MMM'ers. 

A lot of home features seem like they would be great but are actually meaningless.    You won't use them and they are just something to pay to maintain.

Other features will really improve the quality of your life.

And the answer for which is truly which is up to you and your family.  :)   

As for your question, our home is 12.6% of our net worth.   It's only that high because we made a point of paying it off last year, 10 months after we bought it.   We're FIRED.   Selling our old house and few other non-money making properties, plus paying of our new home, dropped our annual expenditure by a bit over $50k.   (It's early and I forget how much over.)  Basically, in a normal expenditure year it dropped our withdrawal rate to below 0%.

So, it eliminated the sequence of returns risk and meant we didn't really have to watch the pennies to stay within an affordable spend rate.  The former lets me sleep easier and the latter improved our quality of life, we don't feel financially constrained like we did before.  (We knew we were rich but we didn't feel rich.)

The question is ambiguous beyond the current/original cost issue - I would've taken the home value, not the equity, into consideration for answering the question.

So if I had a $4 million NW and my home was worth $800k I would've said 20% regardless of whether I had no mortgage (in which case SwordGuy would've also said 20%) or a 10% down mortgage (where SG would've said 2%).

Regardless of what way I interpret the question, my answer would be the same: 0%. I rent. My SO (also eligible for this 'race') would say either 25% or 15% depending on which way she interpreted it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 03, 2021, 05:49:41 AM

The amount of money I have tied up in my home has always been, and continues to be, one of the roadblocks to FIRE for us.

I hated commuting so 11 years ago we bought a house in a popular suburb right very close to the city centre.

Our house was expensive when we bought it and ridiculously expensive today.

It’s still makes up about 50% of our net worth.

We know we could sell and buy a gorgeous house anywhere outside of Sydney and FIRE.... but we love Sydney.... and aren’t quite ready for a sea change/ tree change yet.

We are probably FI (of the far kind) if our house was 30-35% of our NW rather than 50%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 03, 2021, 06:11:29 AM

Quote from: jeroly on May 03, 2021, 05:36:09 AM

The question is ambiguous beyond the current/original cost issue - I would've taken the home value, not the equity, into consideration for answering the question.

So if I had a $4 million NW and my home was worth $800k I would've said 20% regardless of whether I had no mortgage (in which case SwordGuy would've also said 20%) or a 10% down mortgage (where SG would've said 2%).

I think all answers are valid, just differently valid. 

Measured as an impact over time, yours is more valid, as a higher priced house will consume more of one's income over time, so it will act as a larger drain on potential market gains because more money is tied up in the market.   The more it cost to purchase, the higher the opportunity cost of not investing the money that could have been invested had a less expensive house been chosen.

Measured as a spot-check to answer the question, "What can I get cash for and how much?", the house cost is inseparable from the mortgage, so the equity (using market value less sales costs) is the right answer.     

A lot of price appreciation, for which the buyer may have had zero impact on (i.e., was just lucky), can hide a lot of sins using this measurement.  Ditto in the opposite direction using market depreciation because it makes the purchase look like a bad financial decision when perhaps it wasn't at the time.   So using purchase price vs. current market value has value when looking at "Did they buy too much house?"

I think different people lean towards different answers to the question based on their situation.     

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on May 03, 2021, 08:08:01 AM

Quote from: evme on May 03, 2021, 03:02:54 AM

Just curious, for people in this group, what percentage of your net worth does your primary residence represent? For me it'd be something like 5-10% (depends on if you calculate based on price paid or current value), but I'm wondering if that is typical or not among MMM'ers. 

About 30%.  I don't count it when talking about hitting "my number" because I still live in it and it's not liquid.

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 03, 2021, 05:15:45 AM

A lot of home features seem like they would be great but are actually meaningless.    You won't use them and they are just something to pay to maintain.

Almost every piece of copper in the walls in my home is now useless.  I paid over $5K when building this house to include a security system, intercoms, sound system with in-ceiling speakers, cameras, and tons of other features.  In under 10 years, the doorbell/camera has broken once ($500 replacement), the music module has broken twice (no longer replacing it, so the speakers are hooked up to....nothing), 2 different alarm sensors have malfunctioned in the middle of the night, causing the police to show up with guns drawn one time and scaring the living crap out of me!.  The security cameras are pretty good at preventing some neighborhood problems and I was able to provide photos of carjackers once, but the software for the system is crap and not user-friendly. 

I've stopped fixing things as they break.  Almost everything can now be bought cheaper, more user-friendly, and wireless, so easier to maintain as well. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 03, 2021, 08:32:44 AM

Our primary residence accounts for about 20% of our NW.  It's waterfront, so a large part of its value is in the land.  The non-waterfront neighboring homes are valued at around 50% of ours. 


We also have a place in the mountains a couple of hours away.  I'd rather live there, but DW is tired of the miserable Winters.  Financially, we would be much better off living at the mountain place and traveling during the cold months. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 03, 2021, 08:41:34 AM

I don't count the home in my net worth.  J. L. Collins teaches that owning a home you live in is an expense and not an investment so I've never counted it.  It's around 4 - 5 percent.  It's kind of remarkable when I consider it, but the house is no mansion.

Like a previous poster, I have some wiring issues I need to fix.  Nothing beyond my abilities.  However, I guess they've been beyond my ambition so far.  Yeh - I used to live in a trailer.  Down deep, I am still part trailer trash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Blissful Biker on May 03, 2021, 10:18:25 AM

Our home is 25% of our total net worth.  In deciding what matters to us, we chose a nice home.  And it is lovely, we designed it ourselves and it has big mountain views.  I know the math supports not paying off your mortgage but we did it early and are content with the peace of mind that comes from being debt free.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 03, 2021, 01:52:59 PM

Quote from: evme on May 03, 2021, 03:02:54 AM

Just curious, for people in this group, what percentage of your net worth does your primary residence represent? For me it'd be something like 5-10% (depends on if you calculate based on price paid or current value), but I'm wondering if that is typical or not among MMM'ers. 

As I've gained NW it has gotten more and more tempting to "upgrade" my lifestyle, and particularly in regards to having a nicer house. So far I have resisted but I've been tempted more and more of late.

We're in a HCOLA. Our unmortgaged house is currently "worth" around $1.7M, which represents about half of our liquid NW. Add in rental properties, DH's Defined Benefit Pension, SS for both of us eventually, and the primary home percentage drops to about 30%.

The point is that percentages don't really matter, it's the total picture that counts. Even though our home value is high, so are the rest of our numbers. It's actual dollars that pay bills and there will be plenty of them, no matter how the percentages shake out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on May 03, 2021, 02:22:21 PM

I'm in Florida and its still fairly cheap here (compared to elsewhere)
the equity in the house we live in is only 4% of our net.
total housing equity is only 13% of the net and we have 2 townhomes that we collect rent on so most of our net is in liquid funds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 03, 2021, 04:15:13 PM

We are in the club 0% at the moment - we sold recently and are renting. We are struggling to find out next rental, so perhaps ownership will be in the cards in the future, but that is a story for another day.

Congrats @FireLane . I saw more details in your journal about your planned FIRE date and your NW. That is awesome. For as shitty as this past year has been on many fronts it certainly has been kind to the bottom line.

In good news, my husband got approved for "covid leave" where he will be dropping down to three days a week for the next couple of months. We aren't sure how long this covid leave policy will stay in effect. His company oddly doesn't have any formal part time work policy so we'll take it one step at a time to figure out what to do after the leave expires. Worse case scenario he'll suck it up until December and then quit for good. He has nerves, which I understand, but on paper we are $1M over what we had initially calculated our FI number to be, so on paper we should be ok. I totally get the mindset now of "but what about X and what if Y?" that plagues people in their OMY syndrome.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: omachi on May 03, 2021, 04:30:24 PM

Hi everybody, looks like I get to join this thread now. Crossed the number in liquid funds sometime recently, realized it at month end. A little surprised to do so, but I've continued to work at least in part due to job satisfaction from a job change. I was FI a bit before joining this club, and I'm still planning to RE in the not too distant future, once the work starts to lose its luster and this pandemic thing dies down. Until then, contributions and compound interest will keep me racing, even if further accumulation isn't a primary concern anymore.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on May 03, 2021, 05:21:31 PM

Quote from: evme on May 03, 2021, 03:02:54 AM

Just curious, for people in this group, what percentage of your net worth does your primary residence represent? For me it'd be something like 5-10% (depends on if you calculate based on price paid or current value), but I'm wondering if that is typical or not among MMM'ers. 

As I've gained NW it has gotten more and more tempting to "upgrade" my lifestyle, and particularly in regards to having a nicer house. So far I have resisted but I've been tempted more and more of late.

So we paid $165k for our house.  Paid off the mortgage in about 7 years and later did some upgrades that mostly added the large outdoor living space we wanted.  Its probably worth about $350k today in our MediumCOL area, which is about 8% of our net worth.

A couple years ago when I was seeing RE quickly approaching I convinced my wife to go look and see if we'd be interested in any upgrading (so I could probably plan an extra year or two of working to help cover the expense).  Turns out there were very few places (all within the 5 miles) we'd willing to move that we thought near as good neighborhoods.  In those we picked out the most expensive house for sale (I think it was like $850k) and toured it.  In the end, we just weren't that impressed.  I saw a property for sale in a different area and thought, now THAT is much better than what we have and I'd be willing to put up with the hassle of moving for that.  It was $3.1M......  This all told us we are already in the right house.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 03, 2021, 07:24:24 PM

Primary residence is about 6%, second home is about 7% and rental property is about 3%.  We own raw property that's about 3%.  We don't include any of that in net worth usually.  None of it generates income and is dead weight.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 03, 2021, 08:36:48 PM

Quote from: omachi on May 03, 2021, 04:30:24 PM

Hi everybody, looks like I get to join this thread now. Crossed the number in liquid funds sometime recently, realized it at month end. A little surprised to do so, but I've continued to work at least in part due to job satisfaction from a job change. I was FI a bit before joining this club, and I'm still planning to RE in the not too distant future, once the work starts to lose its luster and this pandemic thing dies down. Until then, contributions and compound interest will keep me racing, even if further accumulation isn't a primary concern anymore.

Glad to see ya!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: evme on May 03, 2021, 09:23:10 PM

Quote from: Blissful Biker on May 03, 2021, 10:18:25 AM

Our home is 25% of our total net worth.  In deciding what matters to us, we chose a nice home.  And it is lovely, we designed it ourselves and it has big mountain views.  I know the math supports not paying off your mortgage but we did it early and are content with the peace of mind that comes from being debt free.

Thanks for sharing. I've been told by others that NOT paying off the mortgage is the better option, financially speaking, but to me the peace of mind of not having debt is priceless. And you never know, the stock market could tank and last for years, and then it would really suck if you had to sell beaten-down securities to fund the mortgage payments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: evme on May 03, 2021, 09:25:27 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 03, 2021, 07:24:24 PM

Primary residence is about 6%, second home is about 7% and rental property is about 3%.  We own raw property that's about 3%.  We don't include any of that in net worth usually.  None of it generates income and is dead weight.

Your rental property doesn't generate income and is dead weight?

Also, with two homes does that mean you are snowbirds?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 04, 2021, 02:04:21 AM

Quote from: omachi on May 03, 2021, 04:30:24 PM

Hi everybody, looks like I get to join this thread now. Crossed the number in liquid funds sometime recently, realized it at month end. A little surprised to do so, but I've continued to work at least in part due to job satisfaction from a job change. I was FI a bit before joining this club, and I'm still planning to RE in the not too distant future, once the work starts to lose its luster and this pandemic thing dies down. Until then, contributions and compound interest will keep me racing, even if further accumulation isn't a primary concern anymore.

Welcome, @omachi! Your membership card is in the mail.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on May 04, 2021, 02:29:31 AM

Welcome in @omachi !!

At the moment my share of my home is about 15% of my total net worth.  We will probably get a bigger place as our kids get older (currently they are sharing a bedroom, which they love, but I can't see them wanting to do that as they get towards teenage years or maybe even tweenage years).  I'd also like a bigger garden as I get more time to look after it.  That could take us to as much as around 33% if we stay in the central city area we're in at the moment ("stamp duty" here is pretty ferocious on higher value properties, so you need to make sure you make the right moves and make them stick): but the balance should still be sufficient to FIRE (similar to @Dicey's point).

We've never had a mortgage (didn't get a place of our own until we were nearly 40 and saved up for it), so we're doing it all wrong from a financial efficiency perspective, but I love the fact that there is very little that could happen now that would leave us forced to move house.  Although renting had a lot of advantages, I never liked the fact that you might have to move at short notice.  For me FI is about security and safety more than anything else. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 04, 2021, 04:28:03 AM

20% or less for now depending on what I use for home value, purchase, purchase plus improvement or the number that I’m likely to sell it for I. The next 6 months.  I’m likely to be joining the 0% club in the next 6 months for about 4 years at least.  Per the published schedule at work, I should know about my transfer in 2 days.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on May 04, 2021, 08:05:20 AM

6% of our NW is house equity.

Also, we FINALLY opened up an after-tax brokerage account today, and our NW is 2.9m!!! Crazy we haven’t had one until now. We just always stuffed our money in tax advantaged accounts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: omachi on May 04, 2021, 08:42:54 AM

Quote from: Dicey on May 04, 2021, 02:04:21 AM

Welcome, @omachi! Your membership card is in the mail.

Sweet! I didn't know there were membership cards.

My house is a little under 13% of total NW, at least according to Zillow. A fair chunk of that is appreciation since we bought it, though. Local market is also somewhat insane, so who knows. I wouldn't want to be buying a house right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on May 04, 2021, 08:52:52 AM

I have fun adding new and useless things to my spread sheet.  So house value over total net worth comes out to 14.4%.  Have not had a mortgage for decades, so it's easy enough to calculate as my spread sheet does have a net worth box (which is a worthless number in my opinion), but whatever.

Just crossed the $3.4MM mark.  I also realized I'm not including savings/checking money anywhere.  That's about eighty grand at the moment for no real reason.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 04, 2021, 09:42:17 AM

Quote from: evme on May 03, 2021, 09:25:27 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 03, 2021, 07:24:24 PM

Primary residence is about 6%, second home is about 7% and rental property is about 3%.  We own raw property that's about 3%.  We don't include any of that in net worth usually.  None of it generates income and is dead weight.

Your rental property doesn't generate income and is dead weight?

Also, with two homes does that mean you are snowbirds?

rental income isn't worth the hassle.   I guess we're snowbirds.  It's  Louisiana and Florida.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 04, 2021, 10:12:29 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on May 04, 2021, 08:52:52 AM

as my spread sheet does have a net worth box (which is a worthless number in my opinion), but whatever.

It's not a worthless number.   It has it's purpose.   It's just that its purpose isn't to calculate your FI%.

If tracked over time it lets you know whether your wealth is trending upwards or downwards and how quickly.    This is important, for example, in knowing you need to change things early before your capital is depleted.   We've all run into stories about people who are surprised that they "suddenly" have gone broke, when a net worth calculation done over time would often have highlighted that danger early enough to fix the problem for the better.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: FireLane on May 04, 2021, 10:14:10 AM

My home is about 10% of my NW, and that's the way I like it. I bought a small condo right around the time of the financial crisis, and it suits me just fine.

Given the sky-high real estate prices in NYC, I could upgrade to a detached single-family home with a backyard and spend decades paying it off... or, for the same amount of money, I could enjoy 40 years of luxurious retirement. Not a hard decision. :)

Quote from: ysette9 on May 03, 2021, 04:15:13 PM

Congrats @FireLane . I saw more details in your journal about your planned FIRE date and your NW. That is awesome. For as shitty as this past year has been on many fronts it certainly has been kind to the bottom line.

You're not kidding! I'm also around $1M above my original FIRE number. Sometimes I worry that this is unsustainable, that stocks have just front-loaded years of expected future growth. But even if the market grows sluggishly or not at all for the next ten years, at my planned WR I should be just fine.

Quote from: ysette9 on May 03, 2021, 04:15:13 PM

In good news, my husband got approved for "covid leave" where he will be dropping down to three days a week for the next couple of months. We aren't sure how long this covid leave policy will stay in effect. His company oddly doesn't have any formal part time work policy so we'll take it one step at a time to figure out what to do after the leave expires. Worse case scenario he'll suck it up until December and then quit for good. He has nerves, which I understand, but on paper we are $1M over what we had initially calculated our FI number to be, so on paper we should be ok. I totally get the mindset now of "but what about X and what if Y?" that plagues people in their OMY syndrome.

Congrats, ysette's husband! Mrs. FL's company didn't have a formal part-time policy either, but she asked - politely, but maybe with the subtext that she'd quit if they wouldn't let her do it - and they made an exception for her.

I've seen for myself that if you're a valuable employee, company policy is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9ojK9Q_ARE). It gives you so much bargaining power when you truly don't need the paycheck.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on May 04, 2021, 11:22:58 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on May 04, 2021, 08:05:20 AM

6% of our NW is house equity.

Also, we FINALLY opened up an after-tax brokerage account today, and our NW is 2.9m!!! Crazy we haven’t had one until now. We just always stuffed our money in tax advantaged accounts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow, thats incredible.  I feel like I've maxed out my retirement accounts the best i could over the years and i've ended up with only about one third of the $3.6M invested in tax advantaged accts. Kind of a combination of many years of having no 401k offered, spouse most often being SAHM, and then some late big business years of being able to save a whole lot more than the Solo would allow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 04, 2021, 11:30:56 AM

Speaking about being a worry guts, I was thinking (with today's stock market pullback*).. "How much could our investments tank before we were in trouble?"

Well if we stayed in the rental business (not ideal but we could) and took both our DB pensions our would be roughly $10k ABOVE our average spend.

In other words.. The investments could literally go to $zero and we'd be just fine.

* Yes occasionally I still worry about not having enough. In reality, I should be figuring out how to spend more!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 04, 2021, 01:37:37 PM

Well, got unofficial, official word, that I will be moving to SFO in September.  So I finally got around to calling PayPal to cancel some monthly donations that I will now be funding via my DAF instead of out of regular cash flow.  I must have signed up using a guest account so it wasn’t an easy fix.  But I will say the PayPal customer service was great.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 04, 2021, 02:40:16 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on May 04, 2021, 01:37:37 PM

Well, got unofficial, official word, that I will be moving to SFO in September.  So I finally got around to calling PayPal to cancel some monthly donations that I will now be funding via my DAF instead of out of regular cash flow.  I must have signed up using a guest account so it wasn’t an easy fix.  But I will say the PayPal customer service was great.

Great, was this a promotion?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 04, 2021, 03:24:00 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 04, 2021, 02:40:16 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on May 04, 2021, 01:37:37 PM

Well, got unofficial, official word, that I will be moving to SFO in September.  So I finally got around to calling PayPal to cancel some monthly donations that I will now be funding via my DAF instead of out of regular cash flow.  I must have signed up using a guest account so it wasn’t an easy fix.  But I will say the PayPal customer service was great.

Great, was this a promotion?

Nope it’s a lateral move.  I will get a cost of living increase although not enough yo make up the true COLA.  But it will max out my pension high 3 as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: hydra on May 04, 2021, 03:42:50 PM

Quote from: evme on May 03, 2021, 03:02:54 AM

Just curious, for people in this group, what percentage of your net worth does your primary residence represent? For me it'd be something like 5-10% (depends on if you calculate based on price paid or current value), but I'm wondering if that is typical or not among MMM'ers. 

As I've gained NW it has gotten more and more tempting to "upgrade" my lifestyle, and particularly in regards to having a nicer house. So far I have resisted but I've been tempted more and more of late.

Based on current value, ours is about 17% of our net worth. We've been in the same house since the 90s. We've put a lot into it to turn it from a tiny scraper into a tiny cute cottage. It was a little rough while raising a kid, but now it's the right size for us and we locked in low property taxes. I'm addicted to Trulia house porn, but every time I think about a bigger, more expensive house, I remind myself of the pain of maintenance, higher taxes, etc. Staying in our starter home was a huge factor on our path to FI.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 04, 2021, 04:10:48 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on May 04, 2021, 01:37:37 PM

Well, got unofficial, official word, that I will be moving to SFO in September.  So I finally got around to calling PayPal to cancel some monthly donations that I will now be funding via my DAF instead of out of regular cash flow.  I must have signed up using a guest account so it wasn’t an easy fix.  But I will say the PayPal customer service was great.

Are you moving to the city itself or the airport? ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 04, 2021, 04:58:06 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 04, 2021, 04:10:48 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on May 04, 2021, 01:37:37 PM

Well, got unofficial, official word, that I will be moving to SFO in September.  So I finally got around to calling PayPal to cancel some monthly donations that I will now be funding via my DAF instead of out of regular cash flow.  I must have signed up using a guest account so it wasn’t an easy fix.  But I will say the PayPal customer service was great.

Are you moving to the city itself or the airport? ;)

Well each of our offices happen to have a 3 letter code for internal designations.  SFO happens to be both the airport and the internal office designation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 04, 2021, 10:16:00 PM

SFO is one of my favorite cities, and there's lots to do nearby.  You're an easy drive to Wine Country, Redwoods, the Lost Coast, Yosemite. 

Thanks for the tips on Yosemite.  I'll mention the gloves to my climbers. 

Welcome to this milestone, @omanchi .  We know it don't come easy.

Running the percentage numbers was fun:

My house is roughly 14% of our NW. 
Liquid assets about the same, 15 -16%, meaning my stocks and bonds and cash in savings accounts. 
More complicated cash 7%  (an inherited annuity, a First TD Note).  This value is based on a 3 year payout.  It'd be less if I cashed out tomorrow. 

That leads me to the surprising math that our rental properties are roughly 63% of our NW, not 90% as I've been guessing for years.  But if you add the primary residence, it's 77% in Real Estate.

With Real Estate valuations jumping up at every closed sale, watching the value trackers has been very fun this month.  Every time there's a new comparable, the numbers just floor me.  How could those run of the mill houses POSSIBLY be selling for those prices?  Yet they are... According to Mint, my NW jumped $200K last month (they use Zillow's Zestimates.) and over 500K in 2021.   It's astonishing.   I'm actually planning on selling one soon, and cashing in on my least favorite rental.    We're far enough down the line that we don't feel like holding onto everything for another cycle,  when what goes up, must come down. 

 Rents are skyrocketing also, but we have long term tenants and have always kept our rents low.   Now they are very, very low, which means our nice tenants probably aren't moving in the foreseeable future.   We're making our choices now based on lifestyle and happiness, because there's enough money for whatever we want to do.   Keeping easy tenants happy makes for an easy(ier) life.  I actually got a thank you letter from a tenant whose rent I modestly raised.   Even with the increase, his rent is at least $500 below market rates. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 05, 2021, 01:08:00 AM

Quote from: omachi on May 03, 2021, 04:30:24 PM

Hi everybody, looks like I get to join this thread now. Crossed the number in liquid funds sometime recently, realized it at month end. A little surprised to do so, but I've continued to work at least in part due to job satisfaction from a job change. I was FI a bit before joining this club, and I'm still planning to RE in the not too distant future, once the work starts to lose its luster and this pandemic thing dies down. Until then, contributions and compound interest will keep me racing, even if further accumulation isn't a primary concern anymore.

I've actually been wondering a lot why there aren't more Mustachians joining us these days!  We are at the tail end of a massive slow but sustained run...  I suppose it might've pulled back a bit today, but this year has been quite strong thus far which should have been compounding quite nicely on top of a solid base for those long term save and invest types... 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on May 05, 2021, 05:52:48 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 05, 2021, 01:08:00 AM

Quote from: omachi on May 03, 2021, 04:30:24 PM

Hi everybody, looks like I get to join this thread now. Crossed the number in liquid funds sometime recently, realized it at month end. A little surprised to do so, but I've continued to work at least in part due to job satisfaction from a job change. I was FI a bit before joining this club, and I'm still planning to RE in the not too distant future, once the work starts to lose its luster and this pandemic thing dies down. Until then, contributions and compound interest will keep me racing, even if further accumulation isn't a primary concern anymore.

I've actually been wondering a lot why there aren't more Mustachians joining us these days!  We are at the tail end of a massive slow but sustained run...  I suppose it might've pulled back a bit today, but this year has been quite strong thus far which should have been compounding quite nicely on top of a solid base for those long term save and invest types...

I FIREd in 2019 but if I hit my number solely bc of the crazy run up of the last 12-15 months (with that little blip in the middle)  I would feel apprehensive bc it feels unreal and fake bc of the helicopter tons of money in the system. I would definitely want more cushion for SORR.

Plus they are all "Working" from home in their PJs so why give up the check to do the same thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 05, 2021, 07:41:29 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 05, 2021, 01:08:00 AM

Quote from: omachi on May 03, 2021, 04:30:24 PM

Hi everybody, looks like I get to join this thread now. Crossed the number in liquid funds sometime recently, realized it at month end. A little surprised to do so, but I've continued to work at least in part due to job satisfaction from a job change. I was FI a bit before joining this club, and I'm still planning to RE in the not too distant future, once the work starts to lose its luster and this pandemic thing dies down. Until then, contributions and compound interest will keep me racing, even if further accumulation isn't a primary concern anymore.

I've actually been wondering a lot why there aren't more Mustachians joining us these days!  We are at the tail end of a massive slow but sustained run...  I suppose it might've pulled back a bit today, but this year has been quite strong thus far which should have been compounding quite nicely on top of a solid base for those long term save and invest types...

Other than losing their jobs or going stir-crazy working from home (so they aren't posting) or massive medical bills or death from a bad case of covid, I got no ideas to offer.

Hell, April was an extremely expensive month - to the tune of $30,000 in expenses above and beyond normal (improvements to our home, home repairs, and both of us really splurging on our hobbies) and our net worth was still $23,000 higher than it was at the start of April.

Oh, it's also possible that a lot of folks had a lower than $2m FIRE number and they just up and quit.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: omachi on May 05, 2021, 08:56:12 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 05, 2021, 07:41:29 AM

Oh, it's also possible that a lot of folks had a lower than $2m FIRE number and they just up and quit.

My FI number is lower than $2M and would have RE but...

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on May 05, 2021, 05:52:48 AM

Plus they are all "Working" from home in their PJs so why give up the check to do the same thing.

Though the quotes around working can be removed. Well, I'm providing plenty of value at least. I'm salaried. I'll let the hours work in my favor while I can. Too responsible to collect a check to do nothing, but hell if I'm going to track down more to do than they ask of me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jrhampt on May 05, 2021, 09:34:50 AM

As a household we qualified to join this thread some time last year and are now around $2.5 nw, with about 4-6% of that being in the house, depending on what source you use to estimate its value.  Interesting to see the number of people in this thread who also have houses that make up a very small fraction of total nw.  Since we are both FI now in non-stressful jobs with flexible schedules (I have been 100% WAH for the past 7+ years), I am now working on qualifying for this thread with my own individual nw...should be in another 4-5 years?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 06, 2021, 02:32:33 AM

For me I fired just over 6 years ago with if I remember right about 2.5M ( I would have to look back in my notes but around there) not including our paid for house of 345k. We are at 2.55M and have a paid for house worth 900k minimum. We moved and have been remodeling our " FIRE home" on a lake and with that came added costs from about 6-7k a month to 8-9k a month. So basically we  went from 2.5 +345k = 2.845 to 2.55 + 900k= 3.45M. Our Exit strategy if shit would hit the fan and or health consideration sell the house and its probably worth closer to a million and spend half on a nice condo or low maintenance smaller home in the SE. I have another 75-100k to put into the house but will get every dollar and then some back as its very hard to get on a lake in our area. For us having 4 kids , two in college and 2 in select sports has been expensive since all 16 -22. If we get through the next 3-4 years and Healthy we will be really good. One never knows though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 06, 2021, 06:23:20 AM

Back at work post Covid.  Coworker was fired while I was gone.  They had a ton of overtime covering me and the position of the fired coworker.  I'm facing a full schedule of overtime going forward as well covering till we get a new person trained.  We work alone so there is no seasoned person to tap on the shoulder with questions.  Luckily the replacement is coming from another laboratory and not the street.  I'm getting too old and crotchety to train someone from scratch. 
I was greeted with smiles and cheer upon my return to work.  My wife didn't have quite as friendly a welcome.  She works for a small company, I work for a global chemical business.  I told her to retire immediately if it doesn't improve.  I'm happy I don't work for a small company.  I'm much happier with Megacorp.  With a small business the attitude and rules can change almost daily.  Megacorp is like a huge ship, it turns slowly and definitely.  I was a bit butthurt over the firing of the coworker.  He's not innocent, but I thought discipline was a better option.  I chose not to be in management, and I'm very happy with that choice.  In management terms, I'm a workhorse.  My wife is probably done at the end of the year.  For me, 784 days to go.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 06, 2021, 07:59:34 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 06, 2021, 06:23:20 AM

Back at work post Covid.  Coworker was fired while I was gone.  They had a ton of overtime covering me and the position of the fired coworker.  I'm facing a full schedule of overtime going forward as well covering till we get a new person trained.  We work alone so there is no seasoned person to tap on the shoulder with questions.  Luckily the replacement is coming from another laboratory and not the street.  I'm getting too old and crotchety to train someone from scratch. 
I was greeted with smiles and cheer upon my return to work.  My wife didn't have quite as friendly a welcome.  She works for a small company, I work for a global chemical business.  I told her to retire immediately if it doesn't improve.  I'm happy I don't work for a small company.  I'm much happier with Megacorp.  With a small business the attitude and rules can change almost daily.  Megacorp is like a huge ship, it turns slowly and definitely.  I was a bit butthurt over the firing of the coworker.  He's not innocent, but I thought discipline was a better option.  I chose not to be in management, and I'm very happy with that choice.  In management terms, I'm a workhorse.  My wife is probably done at the end of the year.  For me, 784 days to go.

Sounds like a good deal.  You work alone so they will leave you alone.  I worked longer than many of you folks will.  I didn't always work in an office.  Sometimes I worked outside in bitter cold and wind.  Oddly, in looking back the worst thing about work was office politics.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on May 06, 2021, 08:15:00 AM

I'm planning to wrap up in February of next year. It marks my 25th anniversary in tech, so I'm considering that more than enough of a career. I'll stay for my January bonus, so I can max out my 401k, and then call it quits. Depending on if my manager quits first (we're in a bit of a race to the finish, I suspect), I assume the company will ask me to stay until they find a replacement. I really love the managers I lead, so I'll consider it, but will give a hard timeline.

I did the math today, and there are under 300 days left. When you factor in weekends, company holidays & vacation days, it brings me to ~175 days. Hurrah.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 06, 2021, 08:45:12 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 06, 2021, 07:59:34 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 06, 2021, 06:23:20 AM

Back at work post Covid.  Coworker was fired while I was gone.  They had a ton of overtime covering me and the position of the fired coworker.  I'm facing a full schedule of overtime going forward as well covering till we get a new person trained.  We work alone so there is no seasoned person to tap on the shoulder with questions.  Luckily the replacement is coming from another laboratory and not the street.  I'm getting too old and crotchety to train someone from scratch. 
I was greeted with smiles and cheer upon my return to work.  My wife didn't have quite as friendly a welcome.  She works for a small company, I work for a global chemical business.  I told her to retire immediately if it doesn't improve.  I'm happy I don't work for a small company.  I'm much happier with Megacorp.  With a small business the attitude and rules can change almost daily.  Megacorp is like a huge ship, it turns slowly and definitely.  I was a bit butthurt over the firing of the coworker.  He's not innocent, but I thought discipline was a better option.  I chose not to be in management, and I'm very happy with that choice.  In management terms, I'm a workhorse.  My wife is probably done at the end of the year.  For me, 784 days to go.

Sounds like a good deal.  You work alone so they will leave you alone.  I worked longer than many of you folks will.  I didn't always work in an office.  Sometimes I worked outside in bitter cold and wind.  Oddly, in looking back the worst thing about work was office politics.

Working alone now is probably why I'm still working.  Yes I want all my benefits that come at age 55, but we can definitely do ok if I leave today. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 06, 2021, 08:46:26 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 06, 2021, 08:15:00 AM

I'm planning to wrap up in February of next year. It marks my 25th anniversary in tech, so I'm considering that more than enough of a career. I'll stay for my January bonus, so I can max out my 401k, and then call it quits. Depending on if my manager quits first (we're in a bit of a race to the finish, I suspect), I assume the company will ask me to stay until they find a replacement. I really love the managers I lead, so I'll consider it, but will give a hard timeline.

I did the math today, and there are under 300 days left. When you factor in weekends, company holidays & vacation days, it brings me to ~175 days. Hurrah.

Cheering you on for the rewards of the after work life.  The dawn is breaking.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: crowinghen on May 06, 2021, 09:53:23 AM

Just did the math and we are over 2.5M net worth! Retiring in july Hubby will have a decent pension, but  we will be still be  able to qualify for subsidy with obamacare, with  his prior employer health insurance as back up if obamacare craps out.  Hubby is 57, I'm 56. I'm excited! Just wanted to share :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on May 06, 2021, 10:20:01 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 06, 2021, 08:46:26 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 06, 2021, 08:15:00 AM

I'm planning to wrap up in February of next year. It marks my 25th anniversary in tech, so I'm considering that more than enough of a career. I'll stay for my January bonus, so I can max out my 401k, and then call it quits. Depending on if my manager quits first (we're in a bit of a race to the finish, I suspect), I assume the company will ask me to stay until they find a replacement. I really love the managers I lead, so I'll consider it, but will give a hard timeline.

I did the math today, and there are under 300 days left. When you factor in weekends, company holidays & vacation days, it brings me to ~175 days. Hurrah.

Cheering you on for the rewards of the after work life.  The dawn is breaking.

Thanks, @Bateaux . It feels awkward to say, but COVID bought me a lot of additional work time (no international work travel, WFH, and nowhere else really to go). Also, we are selling our vacation house, because the market is insanely hot there. It wasn't in the cards to sell it, because we were enjoying it, but at its new value, we just can't justify keeping it with our limited time use. We tried to sell it five years ago, and got zero offers in a year (it wasn't us, the market was just very slow.) Now, we're expecting to go live with our listing & receive offers in a ten day window.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 06, 2021, 11:15:10 AM

Quote from: crowinghen on May 06, 2021, 09:53:23 AM

Just did the math and we are over 2.5M net worth! Retiring in july Hubby will have a decent pension, but  we will be still be  able to qualify for subsidy with obamacare, with  his prior employer health insurance as back up if obamacare craps out.  Hubby is 57, I'm 56. I'm excited! Just wanted to share :)

Congratulations and welcome to the retired life. Do you have any plans for your retirement? I am now 7 months retired and thoroughly enjoying myself.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 06, 2021, 02:34:17 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 06, 2021, 10:20:01 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 06, 2021, 08:46:26 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 06, 2021, 08:15:00 AM

I'm planning to wrap up in February of next year. It marks my 25th anniversary in tech, so I'm considering that more than enough of a career. I'll stay for my January bonus, so I can max out my 401k, and then call it quits. Depending on if my manager quits first (we're in a bit of a race to the finish, I suspect), I assume the company will ask me to stay until they find a replacement. I really love the managers I lead, so I'll consider it, but will give a hard timeline.

I did the math today, and there are under 300 days left. When you factor in weekends, company holidays & vacation days, it brings me to ~175 days. Hurrah.

Cheering you on for the rewards of the after work life.  The dawn is breaking.

Thanks, @Bateaux . It feels awkward to say, but COVID bought me a lot of additional work time (no international work travel, WFH, and nowhere else really to go). Also, we are selling our vacation house, because the market is insanely hot there. It wasn't in the cards to sell it, because we were enjoying it, but at its new value, we just can't justify keeping it with our limited time use. We tried to sell it five years ago, and got zero offers in a year (it wasn't us, the market was just very slow.) Now, we're expecting to go live with our listing & receive offers in a ten day window.

Exciting. Wishing you the bet of luck listing and selling the second house.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: crowinghen on May 06, 2021, 05:37:09 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 06, 2021, 11:15:10 AM

Quote from: crowinghen on May 06, 2021, 09:53:23 AM

Just did the math and we are over 2.5M net worth! Retiring in july Hubby will have a decent pension, but  we will be still be  able to qualify for subsidy with obamacare, with  his prior employer health insurance as back up if obamacare craps out.  Hubby is 57, I'm 56. I'm excited! Just wanted to share :)

Congratulations and welcome to the retired life. Do you have any plans for your retirement? I am now 7 months retired and thoroughly enjoying myself.

Thank you!
Going to be moving closer to family, do some hiking, hunting, travelling, house reno, yard work, puttering. Basically everything we already do when we can. May help Hubby paint a few houses/be his bookkeeper, but only on a minimal/ for mad money/fun sort of level.
Glad to hear it's going so well for you!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on May 06, 2021, 05:44:56 PM

Thanks, @ysette9 ! Hoping for a smooth & easy selling transaction. If that's possible these days :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: amberfocus on May 07, 2021, 07:15:46 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 05, 2021, 01:08:00 AM

I've actually been wondering a lot why there aren't more Mustachians joining us these days!  We are at the tail end of a massive slow but sustained run...  I suppose it might've pulled back a bit today, but this year has been quite strong thus far which should have been compounding quite nicely on top of a solid base for those long term save and invest types...

$2MM is a net worth that throws off $80K per year at 4%. That's a pretty massive spend (IMO, anyway; I wouldn't know what to do with $80K if you forced me to spend it) for a frugality-focused forum whose philosophy is based around having enough to live your best life, as opposed to blindly running up the score. I wonder if it's simply because most Mustachians don't want/need a stash that big, and the ones who do are either outliers, or have chosen not to retire.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 07, 2021, 07:54:33 AM

Quote from: amberfocus on May 07, 2021, 07:15:46 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 05, 2021, 01:08:00 AM

I've actually been wondering a lot why there aren't more Mustachians joining us these days!  We are at the tail end of a massive slow but sustained run...  I suppose it might've pulled back a bit today, but this year has been quite strong thus far which should have been compounding quite nicely on top of a solid base for those long term save and invest types...

$2MM is a net worth that throws off $80K per year at 4%. That's a pretty massive spend (IMO, anyway; I wouldn't know what to do with $80K if you forced me to spend it) for a frugality-focused forum whose philosophy is based around having enough to live your best life, as opposed to blindly running up the score. I wonder if it's simply because most Mustachians don't want/need a stash that big, and the ones who do are either outliers, or have chosen not to retire.

What I've come to realize in my 50s, is that I've always undervalued my DIY tasks. Once older many things you did yourself, could eventually require you to pay for a service.  Healthcare will continue to increase in cost and the amount of healthcare you may need.  Inflation in general is set for an increase.  Pushing that 2 million out to 3 or 4 million isn't all that hard.  That gives you much more security, and you can drop down to a 2 or 3 percent withdrawal rate.   It does require some lifetime.  That is a finite resource, so finding the right balance is tough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 07, 2021, 08:40:18 AM

Welcome to the thread, all newcomers.   

There was a long conversation in this thread a while back about whether or not we "feel" rich.   The math was one thing-- looking good overall for this cohort, but hardly any of us identified as wealthy people.   Rather, the independence, the FU money, was noted and appreciated, while many of us continue to be frugal.  Many continued to work for various reasons.   This is a self made group, and that was very clear in the outlook on money.     I found that theme to be one of the most interesting topics that this thread has veered into. 

Another interesting sidenote is how expotentially wealth accumulates the more that you have.   It's been a great year for many of us in this thread.     We. personally, opened up the purse strings quite a bit and bought a very non Mustachean vacation home.   It's a purchase that we don't regret.   And, it's a house, so not likely to be a bad investment, either.   Our lifestyle isn't much different, but we sure enjoy our added R&R time in the new place. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 07, 2021, 09:06:09 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 07, 2021, 08:40:18 AM

Welcome to the thread, all newcomers.   

There was a long conversation in this thread a while back about whether or not we "feel" rich.   The math was one thing-- looking good overall for this cohort, but hardly any of us identified as wealthy people.   Rather, the independence, the FU money, was noted and appreciated, while many of us continue to be frugal.  Many continued to work for various reasons.   This is a self made group, and that was very clear in the outlook on money.     I found that theme to be one of the most interesting topics that this thread has veered into. 

Another interesting sidenote is how expotentially wealth accumulates the more that you have.   It's been a great year for many of us in this thread.     We. personally, opened up the purse strings quite a bit and bought a very non Mustachean vacation home.   It's a purchase that we don't regret.   And, it's a house, so not likely to be a bad investment, either.   Our lifestyle isn't much different, but we sure enjoy our added R&R time in the new place.

Good point about accumulated wealth. In contrast to this group, its instructive to hang out in the Fat Fire . subreddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/fatFIRE/) for a bit. Wealth slowly accumulated over the decades has an entirely different feel from wealth acquired overnight from an IPO or from a lucky crypto bet.

I just looked up my brokerage account - the $2500 initial investment we made in an S&P 500 index fund in the mid 1990s is now worth over $14000!

Our big splurge earlier this year was to spend $100k to fix up our house - and we are really enjoying the improved house now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 07, 2021, 10:04:39 AM

I didn't feel rich when we still had to pay the mortgage.   I was rich but I didn't feel like it.   Once the mortgage was gone (and a few other non-income producing properties), our fixed expenses were way lower.   We didn't have to keep such tight control over our spending, so now I feel rich.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on May 07, 2021, 12:18:26 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 07, 2021, 10:04:39 AM

I didn't feel rich when we still had to pay the mortgage.   I was rich but I didn't feel like it.   Once the mortgage was gone (and a few other non-income producing properties), our fixed expenses were way lower.   We didn't have to keep such tight control over our spending, so now I feel rich.

I got into a fight with my mortgage loan holder (over their insistence on keeping the proceeds from an insurance settlement - after the garage was flattened in the aftermath of a tornado - in escrow) and being able to write a check to pay off the mortgage made me feel rich.  Having FU money doesn’t just have relevance to work situations!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: omachi on May 07, 2021, 12:30:06 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 07, 2021, 08:40:18 AM

Welcome to the thread, all newcomers.   

There was a long conversation in this thread a while back about whether or not we "feel" rich.   The math was one thing-- looking good overall for this cohort, but hardly any of us identified as wealthy people.   Rather, the independence, the FU money, was noted and appreciated, while many of us continue to be frugal.  Many continued to work for various reasons.   This is a self made group, and that was very clear in the outlook on money.     I found that theme to be one of the most interesting topics that this thread has veered into. 

I feel rich. All of my needs are met. I could buy anything I reasonably want, if I wanted to badly enough to spend the money, but mostly I choose not to. We're working past when we need to, so our wealth is likely to spiral upwards over time because compounding on this big of a sum is crazy. Honestly, my target number was probably conservative as it was, and I'm past it. Life is good.

We still continue to be relatively frugal. I don't think we've really upgraded lifestyle for a good decade. Budget is lower on an inflation adjusted basis, though we did kill the mortgage payment. This despite growing incomes. We have some household renovation plans, but those have been part of the long term budget.

I think, for me, part of the feeling rich is not having been particularly assortative with friendships. We still have friends that struggle with money despite having better than median income, and we still have friends who work retail (and manage to do well on a constrained budget). If I were comparing to people with yachts and second homes and whatever else people blow a large household income on, I might feel less rich, or at least be more acutely aware of the tradeoffs I'm making.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 07, 2021, 02:49:07 PM

Wow! It's been awhile since I checked in. Now I understand why people who FIRE quit posting. You kind of just quit thinking about money!
It's been 9 months since I FIRED. Because of this crazy market, our NW has increased about $530k (without the house). With the home equity we are getting close to $3.8M. Our house is about 8% of our NW. We still have a mortgage, I just let dividends from investments autopay it. Not sure how much longer we'll keep the mortgage.

I've also been dabbling with some consulting work. Found a client and made an easy $6k working a couple hours a day on my couch while the kids were at school. That funded a pretty sweet spring break at a mountain resort.

So things have been going great. But just as I was planning some summer adventures with the kids, my old work called. They still can't find a replacement for me. They said name my price (I said $150 and hour as that's what I'm bringing in consulting) and name my hours to work from home. It might just be temporary until they find someone, but it could become a permanent thing. I'm not sure what to do. On one hand I feel like I've proven we don't need more money. The bean pile just keeps growing. On the other hand if I could do two days a week, it's easy money to pay for more trips, more kids adventures and education and more to donate (I truly love sending checks from my DAF fund).

What to do?

Oh and by the way car guys- remember when we were debating the car thing way up thread? I finally got DH to pull the trigger in January. He got his Honda Accord 2.0T, it was a 2020 model with 12,000 miles. It seems we just can't stop being frugal on cars. We would rather take the difference between slightly used and new and travel with it or donate it to charity.

And now, to your question JoJo, I STILL don't feel rich. I don't think I ever will because we just don't live like rich people. We have a modest house, drive used Honda's and only eat out a couple times a month (not counting fast food running to or from kids sporting events which happens more than I'd like it to) hardly ever shop for ANYTHING other than food.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 07, 2021, 03:07:23 PM

2 days a week doesn’t sound so bad, if it makes you feel more comfortable splurging when the kids are not in school.

With children in school you are somewhat limited in what you can do with your time anyways. 5 days of weekend and 2 days of earning fun money sounds like a nice balance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 07, 2021, 04:47:37 PM

There seems to be a pattern here.

My sister-in-law grew up in a ranch in Oregon.  Her neighbors were millionaires.  She has a PhD in math and is very good with money.  I once asked her how one gets to be a millionaire.  She told me that you have to be a cheapskate.  I thought she was joking, but it may not be too much of an exaggeration.  You've got to work hard too.

Look at Warren Buffet.  He lives in the same house he bought in 1958 for $31,500.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/financialcareers/10/buffett-frugal.asp (https://www.investopedia.com/articles/financialcareers/10/buffett-frugal.asp)

He's 90 and I guess he just quit working.

I'm reading a book about the Koch industry.  It's similar to Buffet  Charles Koch drives a standard sedan and is a workaholic.  He's worth billions.

Most of the people who write herein seem to share qualities with these ultra rich folks.

Then there are the stories of the athletes that are paid really big bucks who are broke in a year or two after their careers are over.  The money is spent on fast cars, drugs and "hangers on."  They were paid more than many earn in a lifetime.

There are people who live below their means and those who live above their means.

With almost a year into retirement it looks like we'll be at about a 2.9 percent withdrawal rate for the year.

The stock market had another record high today.

Maybe, I can get a puppy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 07, 2021, 05:05:48 PM

It’s absolutely true that a lot of people here will be frugal to the day they die.

I’m not one.

I’m saving to be free, not to be frugal.

Certainly, as I tear my way to the “beyond” part of this thread name, I don’t expect I’ll have any need to be frugal in FIRE.

I have no ambition to be a Billionaire (nor the capability haha), I just want to be free of work so I can spend down my stash. I have loads of ideas how to blow money.

I am determined to have a smaller stash when I die than when I retire.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 07, 2021, 11:07:29 PM

After being on FIRE forums for so long, I've come early in life to the realization that I'm going to leave behind a ton of money for somebody else.  I'm not upset about it, but at the same time, I've redoubled my efforts on getting better about parting with money both toward mini-philanthropy but also to try new things and not being salty about things that weren't worth what I paid.  As long as I try more new things along the way, then at least I'll know or be able to connect with others better.  For instance, I used to think deep tissue massage was for ninnys, but I'm probably going to go back and have that done again after significant events like half marathons or multi-day bike rides.  I don't necessarily need these things, but they are likely doing me more good than I used to give them credit for...  Also want to try a 'float session' and a 'silent retreat'...  heck, I even drink a $3 kombucha (Gingerade) weekly!  So refreshing.

Coming out the other side of this pandemic, I'm really glad that I've done the crazy amount of international travel that I did...  It's a tough call to know what the right balance in life is, I thought I'd way overdone it and then we hit this complete draught...

So I guess I feel rich now that I'm able to spend some of these frivolous stock market gains post-March 2020 knowing that I'm going to leave behind a significant legacy either way.  And you never know what the future holds.  More willing these days to spend a little extra on mental and physical health.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 07, 2021, 11:23:36 PM

I know what you mean!    I'm spending about $15,000 for equipment and supplies to 3d print and cast and enamel jewelry and other household decorative objects.    Two 3D printers, 3D print washing and curing stations, a new burnout kiln, a new electric metal melting unit, a new vacuum casting table, some workbenches, bronze and silver casting grain and filament and resin for the printers, and new electrical wiring for the kiln.   

And another $5500 to add air conditioning to the garage so we can work in it in the brutally hot and humid southern summer.

We plan to leave wads for our mentally handicapped daughter and a fair bit to our son and his family, but we can afford an occasional big splurge.    Still hard to do, though!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: aetheldrea on May 08, 2021, 10:35:11 AM

Joining in here from the race to $2M thread. First hit $1M late 2016, now here I am. That first million is the hardest :-)
Still working. We sold our crappy condo a couple years ago and became renters again, so housing situation is not super stable, and medical insurance costs are crazy. But excuses are like supervisors, everyone's got one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 08, 2021, 01:40:38 PM

Quote from: aetheldrea on May 08, 2021, 10:35:11 AM

Joining in here from the race to $2M thread. First hit $1M late 2016, now here I am. That first million is the hardest :-)
Still working. We sold our crappy condo a couple years ago and became renters again, so housing situation is not super stable, and medical insurance costs are crazy. But excuses are like supervisors, everyone's got one.

Wow!  You are doing something right.  I liked the twist on the old joke.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 09, 2021, 06:48:36 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 07, 2021, 11:23:36 PM

I know what you mean!    I'm spending about $15,000 for equipment and supplies to 3d print and cast and enamel jewelry and other household decorative objects.    Two 3D printers, 3D print washing and curing stations, a new burnout kiln, a new electric metal melting unit, a new vacuum casting table, some workbenches, bronze and silver casting grain and filament and resin for the printers, and new electrical wiring for the kiln.   

And another $5500 to add air conditioning to the garage so we can work in it in the brutally hot and humid southern summer.

We plan to leave wads for our mentally handicapped daughter and a fair bit to our son and his family, but we can afford an occasional big splurge.    Still hard to do, though!

And I thought I was being a big spender by buying an $80 Weller soldering iron recently :-)

But seriously, its just amazing how much professional quality fabrication equipment is available nowadays at reasonable prices. I keep getting catalogs from MicroMark and there are so many gadgets I want. I can afford pretty much anything now but I'm being cautious about not getting  more than I can actually take advantage of.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 09, 2021, 07:22:39 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 09, 2021, 06:48:36 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 07, 2021, 11:23:36 PM

I know what you mean!    I'm spending about $15,000 for equipment and supplies to 3d print and cast and enamel jewelry and other household decorative objects.    Two 3D printers, 3D print washing and curing stations, a new burnout kiln, a new electric metal melting unit, a new vacuum casting table, some workbenches, bronze and silver casting grain and filament and resin for the printers, and new electrical wiring for the kiln.   

And another $5500 to add air conditioning to the garage so we can work in it in the brutally hot and humid southern summer.

We plan to leave wads for our mentally handicapped daughter and a fair bit to our son and his family, but we can afford an occasional big splurge.    Still hard to do, though!

And I thought I was being a big spender by buying an $80 Weller soldering iron recently :-)

But seriously, its just amazing how much professional quality fabrication equipment is available nowadays at reasonable prices. I keep getting catalogs from MicroMark and there are so many gadgets I want. I can afford pretty much anything now but I'm being cautious about not getting  more than I can actually take advantage of.

I know what you mean!   It's only taken me about 12 years to work up to doing this...

The difference between 12 years ago and now is that nowadays I can have my net worth go up that much in a day or two.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 09, 2021, 10:18:11 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on May 07, 2021, 05:05:48 PM

It’s absolutely true that a lot of people here will be frugal to the day they die.

I’m not one.

I’m saving to be free, not to be frugal.

Certainly, as I tear my way to the “beyond” part of this thread name, I don’t expect I’ll have any need to be frugal in FIRE.

I have no ambition to be a Billionaire (nor the capability haha), I just want to be free of work so I can spend down my stash. I have loads of ideas how to blow money.

I am determined to have a smaller stash when I die than when I retire.

Yup.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 09, 2021, 02:41:41 PM

This is a little tricky for us.. I was just talking with DW. We have this POS farm truck.. its 32 years old. Just yesterday I fixed the window that didn't wind up unless you used the other hand to keep the window square in its tracks.. Oh, and the plastic interior door handle broke in half.. So I made a new one by welding a couple of piece of steel together.. Works great.

Now why are multimillionaires riding around in a 32 year old truck? Shouldn't we get a monster diesel powered rig more befitting of our "status"?

But why, the old beater will pull 12,000 pounds, has new brakes all round and only has 140,000 miles on it. Its perfect for its use of hauling heavy crap the 1000 miles it does every year.. Why on Earth would we change it?

Why do we need a fancier house, car etc.

I could buy almost any machine tool or welding equipment I wanted and still our NW will keep increasing.

Its a dilemma!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 09, 2021, 04:20:54 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 09, 2021, 02:41:41 PM

This is a little tricky for us.. I was just talking with DW. We have this POS farm truck.. its 32 years old. Just yesterday I fixed the window that didn't wind up unless you used the other hand to keep the window square in its tracks.. Oh, and the plastic interior door handle broke in half.. So I made a new one by welding a couple of piece of steel together.. Works great.

Now why are multimillionaires riding around in a 32 year old truck? Shouldn't we get a monster diesel powered rig more befitting of our "status"?

But why, the old beater will pull 12,000 pounds, has new brakes all round and only has 140,000 miles on it. Its perfect for its use of hauling heavy crap the 1000 miles it does every year.. Why on Earth would we change it?

Why do we need a fancier house, car etc.

I could buy almost any machine tool or welding equipment I wanted and still our NW will keep increasing.

Its a dilemma!

Why keep the old one?  One good reason is that you can fix it yourself.  Going back 32 years may mean that it has a carburetor in it.  It has minimum if any fancy electronics.  I'll bet it doesn't even have an analyzer port.  Air bags!  Air bags!  You don't need no stinkin' air bags.  And,.....if parts are unavailable,.......you are a mechanical engineer,.......you can design parts better than OEM.

Old trucks like that have bottomed out and increase in value.  Even your so called POS is making you money.

I gotta apologize to you guys.  I made a severe math error when figuring out my withdrawal rate for a previous post.  I'm actually at about 1 percent.   This was after I checked the accounts and found they had really gone up.  Hell, there is a very good chance I'll be into the" ....and Beyond!" range in a few years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 09, 2021, 07:15:59 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 09, 2021, 04:20:54 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 09, 2021, 02:41:41 PM

This is a little tricky for us.. I was just talking with DW. We have this POS farm truck.. its 32 years old. Just yesterday I fixed the window that didn't wind up unless you used the other hand to keep the window square in its tracks.. Oh, and the plastic interior door handle broke in half.. So I made a new one by welding a couple of piece of steel together.. Works great.

Now why are multimillionaires riding around in a 32 year old truck? Shouldn't we get a monster diesel powered rig more befitting of our "status"?

But why, the old beater will pull 12,000 pounds, has new brakes all round and only has 140,000 miles on it. Its perfect for its use of hauling heavy crap the 1000 miles it does every year.. Why on Earth would we change it?

Why do we need a fancier house, car etc.

I could buy almost any machine tool or welding equipment I wanted and still our NW will keep increasing.

Its a dilemma!

Why keep the old one?  One good reason is that you can fix it yourself.  Going back 32 years may mean that it has a carburetor in it.  It has minimum if any fancy electronics.  I'll bet it doesn't even have an analyzer port.  Air bags!  Air bags!  You don't need no stinkin' air bags.  And,.....if parts are unavailable,.......you are a mechanical engineer,.......you can design parts better than OEM.

Old trucks like that have bottomed out and increase in value.  Even your so called POS is making you money.

I gotta apologize to you guys.  I made a severe math error when figuring out my withdrawal rate for a previous post.  I'm actually at about 1 percent.   This was after I checked the accounts and found they had really gone up.  Hell, there is a very good chance I'll be into the" ....and Beyond!" range in a few years.

Driving that old truck because you can!  Used my brand new by comparison, 2008 F250 today.  I used the 12,000 pound winch to help my dad set a new power pole.  Hope to keep it at least another ten years.

@pecunia most of us are on autopilot to reach the beyond.  You did almost all the hard work by 2M.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 10, 2021, 07:19:23 AM

"@pecunia most of us are on autopilot to reach the beyond.  You did almost all the hard work by 2M."

Very true.  I just hope autopilot doesn't make me hit the inflation mountain looking ahead.

(I don't think the inflation mountain will be a fun climb.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 10, 2021, 11:35:45 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 10, 2021, 07:19:23 AM

"@pecunia most of us are on autopilot to reach the beyond.  You did almost all the hard work by 2M."

Very true.  I just hope autopilot doesn't make me hit the inflation mountain looking ahead.

(I don't think the inflation mountain will be a fun climb.)

This is probably the worst conversation to start in a MMM Forum, but if you think inflation is really going to pick up (no pun intended XF), then you should be out there acquiring new stuff.  Fortunate for us, we already have the big house (that will need to be downsized in ER) and the new cars (that never break down - thank you Honda and Toyota), so I say to inflation - bring it on!!  Waiting a year to buy stuff, as many home buyers are now realizing, was a mistake that may not get any better in the foreseeable future.

Of course, if you're 100% happy with what you've got, then pop the popcorn and enjoy the show.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LoanShark on May 10, 2021, 12:52:49 PM

^^^ The good news is I would think that financial assets will "inflate" in parity with the rest of inflation in general.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jrhampt on May 10, 2021, 01:53:54 PM

I feel super rich, but I’ve felt really rich ever since I’ve been able to go to the grocery store and buy whatever I want - nuts, steaks, lump crabmeat, good cheese,etc- without worrying about the cost.  I can take my cat to the vet and not worry about it.  I can write a nice check for a nephew’s graduation gift. I can take my parents out anywhere they want and spoil them. I am very thankful for all these things.  I don’t look particularly rich because I live in a tiny house and have an old sensible used car, but I feel very rich.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 10, 2021, 02:04:03 PM

Quote from: LoanShark on May 10, 2021, 12:52:49 PM

^^^ The good news is I would think that financial assets will "inflate" in parity with the rest of inflation in general.

Seems like they have been or at least are getting primed for inflation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on May 10, 2021, 02:58:33 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 10, 2021, 02:04:03 PM

Quote from: LoanShark on May 10, 2021, 12:52:49 PM

^^^ The good news is I would think that financial assets will "inflate" in parity with the rest of inflation in general.

Seems like they have been or at least are getting primed for inflation.

All assets have inflated substantially bc of low rates and what not, now we are seeing inflation in cpi and ppi so it is possible as those inflate financial assets could pause bc they inflated so much already.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 10, 2021, 04:16:55 PM

Quote from: jrhampt on May 10, 2021, 01:53:54 PM

I feel super rich, but I’ve felt really rich ever since I’ve been able to go to the grocery store and buy whatever I want - nuts, steaks, lump crabmeat, good cheese,etc- without worrying about the cost.  I can take my cat to the vet and not worry about it.  I can write a nice check for a nephew’s graduation gift. I can take my parents out anywhere they want and spoil them. I am very thankful for all these things.  I don’t look particularly rich because I live in a tiny house and have an old sensible used car, but I feel very rich.

This weekend I decided that shopping at Trader Joe’s is something that makes me feel rich.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jrhampt on May 10, 2021, 06:44:07 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 10, 2021, 04:16:55 PM

Quote from: jrhampt on May 10, 2021, 01:53:54 PM

I feel super rich, but I’ve felt really rich ever since I’ve been able to go to the grocery store and buy whatever I want - nuts, steaks, lump crabmeat, good cheese,etc- without worrying about the cost.  I can take my cat to the vet and not worry about it.  I can write a nice check for a nephew’s graduation gift. I can take my parents out anywhere they want and spoil them. I am very thankful for all these things.  I don’t look particularly rich because I live in a tiny house and have an old sensible used car, but I feel very rich.

This weekend I decided that shopping at Trader Joe’s is something that makes me feel rich.

Oh yes!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 10, 2021, 09:00:50 PM

I do love the feeling of lifestyle inflation when it comes to groceries. I appreciate that I can buy better food and buy pretty much anything I want at the grocery store without thinking about it too much. True, a lot of my recipes come from Budget Bytes but I am definitely not scrimping. Food is something enjoyable so I have zero guilt about that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 11, 2021, 07:58:37 AM

It's been Aldi's this year.  Sometimes the produce is a bit inferior, but the packaged stuff seems the same as the higher priced stores.  I don't remember the last time I had a beef steak.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 14, 2021, 12:53:55 AM

Working night number eight out of eleven.  I really don't feel wealthy right now even though making a ton of overtime.  After watching your accounts drop 75K in a few days, what the Hell is five thousand dollars in overtime?   Only down about 50K since the bounce back Thursday.  Anyway, my next break is the third week of June.  Headed to the Florida house to paint and maybe a little bicycle fun. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 14, 2021, 03:23:53 AM

I am not sure how I feel overall but whatever it is it beats going to work so I guess that is all I need to feel. April was ridiculously expensive for me spending 30k when our budget is 8500 a month and we usually don't spend that. I needed a new riding Lawn mower and with all the crap that was 5k. Took the family to Florida for our first family trip in ages and that was easily another 5k. Paid for my Sons knee surgery deductible another 6k and so on. The fact I could do it and the market was going up at the time made me feel rich. Now with the market seemingly on shaky ground I feel like I need to reign things in a bit but I cant and wont as it is more important for me to wrap some projects up that I need to and start enjoying our house that I have been remodeling for a year and a half but probably realistically have another year and a half. I do feel I am better off than most as I have no debt and to me that is I guess the same as someone else feeling rich. I would have a lot more with the run up in the market over the years if I didnt buy the house and didnt live life but I didnt retire young to disappear so its all about balance. I think having a couple kids still at home and having to think about college with them even though that money I dont include in our wealth since its in 529's and I look at as spent to some point puts weight on my thinking as well. I'd be lying if I said I wish I would of waited a little longer and put a little more away BUT i think one can always say that and I feel even more than ever I made the right decision. Not worried about the market going down as I would buy the dip but going down and sideways for a lengthy time might be trying which is why I have moved to more cash than normal. ..........ramble!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 14, 2021, 06:23:25 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 14, 2021, 03:23:53 AM

I am not sure how I feel overall but whatever it is it beats going to work so I guess that is all I need to feel. April was ridiculously expensive for me spending 30k when our budget is 8500 a month and we usually don't spend that. I needed a new riding Lawn mower and with all the crap that was 5k. Took the family to Florida for our first family trip in ages and that was easily another 5k. Paid for my Sons knee surgery deductible another 6k and so on. The fact I could do it and the market was going up at the time made me feel rich. Now with the market seemingly on shaky ground I feel like I need to reign things in a bit but I cant and wont as it is more important for me to wrap some projects up that I need to and start enjoying our house that I have been remodeling for a year and a half but probably realistically have another year and a half. I do feel I am better off than most as I have no debt and to me that is I guess the same as someone else feeling rich. I would have a lot more with the run up in the market over the years if I didnt buy the house and didnt live life but I didnt retire young to disappear so its all about balance. I think having a couple kids still at home and having to think about college with them even though that money I dont include in our wealth since its in 529's and I look at as spent to some point puts weight on my thinking as well. I'd be lying if I said I wish I would of waited a little longer and put a little more away BUT i think one can always say that and I feel even more than ever I made the right decision. Not worried about the market going down as I would buy the dip but going down and sideways for a lengthy time might be trying which is why I have moved to more cash than normal. ..........ramble!

Yeh - You can always do that OMY thing and what might happen?

OMY OMY OMY OMY OMY RIP

As hard as you try to pin down what's gonna happen to you, them random variables are gonna get ya.

I'm old enough to remember the Beatle's Instant Karma song,.....it's like that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 14, 2021, 09:44:12 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 14, 2021, 03:23:53 AM

I am not sure how I feel overall but whatever it is it beats going to work so I guess that is all I need to feel. April was ridiculously expensive for me spending 30k when our budget is 8500 a month and we usually don't spend that. I needed a new riding Lawn mower and with all the crap that was 5k. Took the family to Florida for our first family trip in ages and that was easily another 5k. Paid for my Sons knee surgery deductible another 6k and so on. The fact I could do it and the market was going up at the time made me feel rich. Now with the market seemingly on shaky ground I feel like I need to reign things in a bit but I cant and wont as it is more important for me to wrap some projects up that I need to and start enjoying our house that I have been remodeling for a year and a half but probably realistically have another year and a half. I do feel I am better off than most as I have no debt and to me that is I guess the same as someone else feeling rich. I would have a lot more with the run up in the market over the years if I didnt buy the house and didnt live life but I didnt retire young to disappear so its all about balance. I think having a couple kids still at home and having to think about college with them even though that money I dont include in our wealth since its in 529's and I look at as spent to some point puts weight on my thinking as well. I'd be lying if I said I wish I would of waited a little longer and put a little more away BUT i think one can always say that and I feel even more than ever I made the right decision. Not worried about the market going down as I would buy the dip but going down and sideways for a lengthy time might be trying which is why I have moved to more cash than normal. ..........ramble!

I always find your postings thought provoking. If you can afford it, money spent improving your house is generally a good thing. We don't have a big house but we do fully make use of every room in the house. We spent about $100k fixing up our house over this past winter and I have to say that its the best money I've ever spent. I got my long-desired hobby room out of this project. I spend a few hours there almost every day. In fact, I am just taking a break from an enjoyable morning wiring up the new model train layout that I am building :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 14, 2021, 10:02:44 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 14, 2021, 09:44:12 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 14, 2021, 03:23:53 AM

I am not sure how I feel overall but whatever it is it beats going to work so I guess that is all I need to feel. April was ridiculously expensive for me spending 30k when our budget is 8500 a month and we usually don't spend that. I needed a new riding Lawn mower and with all the crap that was 5k. Took the family to Florida for our first family trip in ages and that was easily another 5k. Paid for my Sons knee surgery deductible another 6k and so on. The fact I could do it and the market was going up at the time made me feel rich. Now with the market seemingly on shaky ground I feel like I need to reign things in a bit but I cant and wont as it is more important for me to wrap some projects up that I need to and start enjoying our house that I have been remodeling for a year and a half but probably realistically have another year and a half. I do feel I am better off than most as I have no debt and to me that is I guess the same as someone else feeling rich. I would have a lot more with the run up in the market over the years if I didnt buy the house and didnt live life but I didnt retire young to disappear so its all about balance. I think having a couple kids still at home and having to think about college with them even though that money I dont include in our wealth since its in 529's and I look at as spent to some point puts weight on my thinking as well. I'd be lying if I said I wish I would of waited a little longer and put a little more away BUT i think one can always say that and I feel even more than ever I made the right decision. Not worried about the market going down as I would buy the dip but going down and sideways for a lengthy time might be trying which is why I have moved to more cash than normal. ..........ramble!

I always find your postings thought provoking. If you can afford it, money spent improving your house is generally a good thing. We don't have a big house but we do fully make use of every room in the house. We spent about $100k fixing up our house over this past winter and I have to say that its the best money I've ever spent. I got my long-desired hobby room out of this project. I spend a few hours there almost every day. In fact, I am just taking a break from an enjoyable morning wiring up the new model train layout that I am building :-)

I OMY'd to pay for an $80k home remodel two years ago. It seemed pretty wasteful at the time, but when COVID hit it seemed like the best money we ever spent. If we had been stuck at home for the last year in with the old kitchen, flooring and paint it would have been really depressing. Instead we got to really enjoy it.
We said we wouldn't do anything else major to the house besides regular maintenance and now we're talking about doing a small basement remodel once the boys hit the teen years.
So I agree, money on your home when you use it and enjoy it, is money well spent.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 14, 2021, 10:05:34 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 14, 2021, 12:53:55 AM

Working night number eight out of eleven.  I really don't feel wealthy right now even though making a ton of overtime.  After watching your accounts drop 75K in a few days, what the Hell is five thousand dollars in overtime?   Only down about 50K since the bounce back Thursday.  Anyway, my next break is the third week of June.  Headed to the Florida house to paint and maybe a little bicycle fun.

Since FIRE I find that I pay less attention to what the market does than when I was working. Which doesn't really make sense, but it's true. The market can be down and I can make myself a FREE cup of tea and sit on my deck in the sun for FREE and know that it'll go back up.....eventually. But somehow when I was working and the market would take a dip, I would feel very poor. Poor and tired.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on May 14, 2021, 10:12:36 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 14, 2021, 10:05:34 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 14, 2021, 12:53:55 AM

Working night number eight out of eleven.  I really don't feel wealthy right now even though making a ton of overtime.  After watching your accounts drop 75K in a few days, what the Hell is five thousand dollars in overtime?   Only down about 50K since the bounce back Thursday.  Anyway, my next break is the third week of June.  Headed to the Florida house to paint and maybe a little bicycle fun.

Since FIRE I find that I pay less attention to what the market does than when I was working. Which doesn't really make sense, but it's true. The market can be down and I can make myself a FREE cup of tea and sit on my deck in the sun for FREE and know that it'll go back up.....eventually. But somehow when I was working and the market would take a dip, I would feel very poor. Poor and tired.

Huh, with earned income, I get a bit excited when the market goes down, knowing that I will be putting the next paycheck in at a reduced price. Still, this week has been a rollercoaster, because he has RSUs vesting next week and they are still down pretty significantly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Tester on May 14, 2021, 11:52:19 AM

Quote from: ixtap on May 14, 2021, 10:12:36 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 14, 2021, 10:05:34 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 14, 2021, 12:53:55 AM

Working night number eight out of eleven.  I really don't feel wealthy right now even though making a ton of overtime.  After watching your accounts drop 75K in a few days, what the Hell is five thousand dollars in overtime?   Only down about 50K since the bounce back Thursday.  Anyway, my next break is the third week of June.  Headed to the Florida house to paint and maybe a little bicycle fun.

Since FIRE I find that I pay less attention to what the market does than when I was working. Which doesn't really make sense, but it's true. The market can be down and I can make myself a FREE cup of tea and sit on my deck in the sun for FREE and know that it'll go back up.....eventually. But somehow when I was working and the market would take a dip, I would feel very poor. Poor and tired.

Huh, with earned income, I get a bit excited when the market goes down, knowing that I will be putting the next paycheck in at a reduced price. Still, this week has been a rollercoaster, because he has RSUs vesting next week and they are still down pretty significantly.

You should not care about vesting RSUs?
You are not forced to sell them all at vesting date...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on May 14, 2021, 12:04:23 PM

Quote from: Tester on May 14, 2021, 11:52:19 AM

Quote from: ixtap on May 14, 2021, 10:12:36 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 14, 2021, 10:05:34 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 14, 2021, 12:53:55 AM

Working night number eight out of eleven.  I really don't feel wealthy right now even though making a ton of overtime.  After watching your accounts drop 75K in a few days, what the Hell is five thousand dollars in overtime?   Only down about 50K since the bounce back Thursday.  Anyway, my next break is the third week of June.  Headed to the Florida house to paint and maybe a little bicycle fun.

Since FIRE I find that I pay less attention to what the market does than when I was working. Which doesn't really make sense, but it's true. The market can be down and I can make myself a FREE cup of tea and sit on my deck in the sun for FREE and know that it'll go back up.....eventually. But somehow when I was working and the market would take a dip, I would feel very poor. Poor and tired.

Huh, with earned income, I get a bit excited when the market goes down, knowing that I will be putting the next paycheck in at a reduced price. Still, this week has been a rollercoaster, because he has RSUs vesting next week and they are still down pretty significantly.

You should not care about vesting RSUs?
You are not forced to sell them all at vesting date...

Many people, including me, value RSUs on our balance sheet at their FMV.  When the stock price is down, the RSU value is down and NW is down.  Paper loss, but still.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 15, 2021, 03:52:09 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 14, 2021, 10:02:44 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 14, 2021, 09:44:12 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 14, 2021, 03:23:53 AM

I am not sure how I feel overall but whatever it is it beats going to work so I guess that is all I need to feel. April was ridiculously expensive for me spending 30k when our budget is 8500 a month and we usually don't spend that. I needed a new riding Lawn mower and with all the crap that was 5k. Took the family to Florida for our first family trip in ages and that was easily another 5k. Paid for my Sons knee surgery deductible another 6k and so on. The fact I could do it and the market was going up at the time made me feel rich. Now with the market seemingly on shaky ground I feel like I need to reign things in a bit but I cant and wont as it is more important for me to wrap some projects up that I need to and start enjoying our house that I have been remodeling for a year and a half but probably realistically have another year and a half. I do feel I am better off than most as I have no debt and to me that is I guess the same as someone else feeling rich. I would have a lot more with the run up in the market over the years if I didnt buy the house and didnt live life but I didnt retire young to disappear so its all about balance. I think having a couple kids still at home and having to think about college with them even though that money I dont include in our wealth since its in 529's and I look at as spent to some point puts weight on my thinking as well. I'd be lying if I said I wish I would of waited a little longer and put a little more away BUT i think one can always say that and I feel even more than ever I made the right decision. Not worried about the market going down as I would buy the dip but going down and sideways for a lengthy time might be trying which is why I have moved to more cash than normal. ..........ramble!

I always find your postings thought provoking. If you can afford it, money spent improving your house is generally a good thing. We don't have a big house but we do fully make use of every room in the house. We spent about $100k fixing up our house over this past winter and I have to say that its the best money I've ever spent. I got my long-desired hobby room out of this project. I spend a few hours there almost every day. In fact, I am just taking a break from an enjoyable morning wiring up the new model train layout that I am building :-)

I OMY'd to pay for an $80k home remodel two years ago. It seemed pretty wasteful at the time, but when COVID hit it seemed like the best money we ever spent. If we had been stuck at home for the last year in with the old kitchen, flooring and paint it would have been really depressing. Instead we got to really enjoy it.
We said we wouldn't do anything else major to the house besides regular maintenance and now we're talking about doing a small basement remodel once the boys hit the teen years.
So I agree, money on your home when you use it and enjoy it, is money well spent.

When we first bought the house A year ago December and the  Pandemic hit, we said "Wouldn't you know it we buy a house and a pandemic hits" shortly after we said "We are Lucky to have bought the house" because at least we could go out on the water and be outside all the time. Its a lot of work but once I get it all done it will just be general maintenance the house was exactly 25 years old when we bought it so I am redoing pretty much the entire home inside and out but this year from June 1st till we put the boats away I am not doing anything unless I have to. But yeah its the best investment we made but day by day its a lot of work till its not! :-) and as I have said I will get every penny back and then some.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 15, 2021, 12:01:36 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 15, 2021, 03:52:09 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 14, 2021, 10:02:44 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 14, 2021, 09:44:12 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 14, 2021, 03:23:53 AM

I am not sure how I feel overall but whatever it is it beats going to work so I guess that is all I need to feel. April was ridiculously expensive for me spending 30k when our budget is 8500 a month and we usually don't spend that. I needed a new riding Lawn mower and with all the crap that was 5k. Took the family to Florida for our first family trip in ages and that was easily another 5k. Paid for my Sons knee surgery deductible another 6k and so on. The fact I could do it and the market was going up at the time made me feel rich. Now with the market seemingly on shaky ground I feel like I need to reign things in a bit but I cant and wont as it is more important for me to wrap some projects up that I need to and start enjoying our house that I have been remodeling for a year and a half but probably realistically have another year and a half. I do feel I am better off than most as I have no debt and to me that is I guess the same as someone else feeling rich. I would have a lot more with the run up in the market over the years if I didnt buy the house and didnt live life but I didnt retire young to disappear so its all about balance. I think having a couple kids still at home and having to think about college with them even though that money I dont include in our wealth since its in 529's and I look at as spent to some point puts weight on my thinking as well. I'd be lying if I said I wish I would of waited a little longer and put a little more away BUT i think one can always say that and I feel even more than ever I made the right decision. Not worried about the market going down as I would buy the dip but going down and sideways for a lengthy time might be trying which is why I have moved to more cash than normal. ..........ramble!

I always find your postings thought provoking. If you can afford it, money spent improving your house is generally a good thing. We don't have a big house but we do fully make use of every room in the house. We spent about $100k fixing up our house over this past winter and I have to say that its the best money I've ever spent. I got my long-desired hobby room out of this project. I spend a few hours there almost every day. In fact, I am just taking a break from an enjoyable morning wiring up the new model train layout that I am building :-)

I OMY'd to pay for an $80k home remodel two years ago. It seemed pretty wasteful at the time, but when COVID hit it seemed like the best money we ever spent. If we had been stuck at home for the last year in with the old kitchen, flooring and paint it would have been really depressing. Instead we got to really enjoy it.
We said we wouldn't do anything else major to the house besides regular maintenance and now we're talking about doing a small basement remodel once the boys hit the teen years.
So I agree, money on your home when you use it and enjoy it, is money well spent.

When we first bought the house A year ago December and the  Pandemic hit, we said "Wouldn't you know it we buy a house and a pandemic hits" shortly after we said "We are Lucky to have bought the house" because at least we could go out on the water and be outside all the time. Its a lot of work but once I get it all done it will just be general maintenance the house was exactly 25 years old when we bought it so I am redoing pretty much the entire home inside and out but this year from June 1st till we put the boats away I am not doing anything unless I have to. But yeah its the best investment we made but day by day its a lot of work till its not! :-) and as I have said I will get every penny back and then some.

It can be a blast living on the water.  It's great weather today and people are out in their boats.  Sucks for me because, I'm working night number 10 out of 11.   Life on the water is the only life my grown children know. Have fun with your well earned investment.

Adding a tag here:

Holy crap!  Florida homeowners insurance just took a huge leap!   Last year $1800.   Now nearly $2600!  I'm leaving the waterfront in Louisiana because my insurance Flood/Homeowners insurance is over $4000.  Louisiana insurance policy renewal in July.  Hopefully it doesn't go up as much.  All these people celebrating the increase in home values had better factor in the potential insurance costs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 15, 2021, 02:59:27 PM

On some level shouldn’t you expect home owner’s insurance in places like coastal Florida and Louisiana to be expensive due to climate change and rising sea levels? I wonder if there will be a time in the not distant future when you aren’t able to get insurance at all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 15, 2021, 04:49:34 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 15, 2021, 02:59:27 PM

On some level shouldn’t you expect home owner’s insurance in places like coastal Florida and Louisiana to be expensive due to climate change and rising sea levels? I wonder if there will be a time in the not distant future when you aren’t able to get insurance at all.

My understanding is that all private insurers have pulled out of the wind damage insurance business in Florida and such insurance is only available through the state - Citizens insurance?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on May 16, 2021, 03:11:13 AM

florida insurance is going up. the only way to keep the premiums reasonable is to have a recent 4 point inspection done that includes a wind mitigation report.
my other halfs townhouse went up by 100% (a townhouse where the hoa are responsible for the outside and roof!). and she is currently having it done up so she can get a 4 point done before trying to get the insurance down.
My current house had one done and the renewal will be due in August. It'll be interesting to see what they do here as we do have a recent 4 point inspection.

current rates for the house are just over 1K a year. I still expect an large increase.

Part of the issue is the number of crappy roofing claims where companies find "hail or storm" damage to the properties and promise that the insurance will pay for most of the work of a new roof. The number of claims have therefore increased dramatically. Home owners are then surprised that the insurance doesn't pay out as much as promised and their rates shoot up!!

D'oh...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 17, 2021, 01:19:55 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on May 16, 2021, 03:11:13 AM

florida insurance is going up. the only way to keep the premiums reasonable is to have a recent 4 point inspection done that includes a wind mitigation report.
my other halfs townhouse went up by 100% (a townhouse where the hoa are responsible for the outside and roof!). and she is currently having it done up so she can get a 4 point done before trying to get the insurance down.
My current house had one done and the renewal will be due in August. It'll be interesting to see what they do here as we do have a recent 4 point inspection.

current rates for the house are just over 1K a year. I still expect an large increase.

Part of the issue is the number of crappy roofing claims where companies find "hail or storm" damage to the properties and promise that the insurance will pay for most of the work of a new roof. The number of claims have therefore increased dramatically. Home owners are then surprised that the insurance doesn't pay out as much as promised and their rates shoot up!!

D'oh...

We had a new roof put on in 2019.  All the updates and inspection were done.  It saves over $1000 a year.  I can easily afford the $2600 annual cost.  Our Louisiana house which lesser value is much higher.  Hopefully by the end of 2023 someone else is paying the Louisiana house expenses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MishMash on May 17, 2021, 04:29:22 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 15, 2021, 12:01:36 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 15, 2021, 03:52:09 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 14, 2021, 10:02:44 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 14, 2021, 09:44:12 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 14, 2021, 03:23:53 AM

I am not sure how I feel overall but whatever it is it beats going to work so I guess that is all I need to feel. April was ridiculously expensive for me spending 30k when our budget is 8500 a month and we usually don't spend that. I needed a new riding Lawn mower and with all the crap that was 5k. Took the family to Florida for our first family trip in ages and that was easily another 5k. Paid for my Sons knee surgery deductible another 6k and so on. The fact I could do it and the market was going up at the time made me feel rich. Now with the market seemingly on shaky ground I feel like I need to reign things in a bit but I cant and wont as it is more important for me to wrap some projects up that I need to and start enjoying our house that I have been remodeling for a year and a half but probably realistically have another year and a half. I do feel I am better off than most as I have no debt and to me that is I guess the same as someone else feeling rich. I would have a lot more with the run up in the market over the years if I didnt buy the house and didnt live life but I didnt retire young to disappear so its all about balance. I think having a couple kids still at home and having to think about college with them even though that money I dont include in our wealth since its in 529's and I look at as spent to some point puts weight on my thinking as well. I'd be lying if I said I wish I would of waited a little longer and put a little more away BUT i think one can always say that and I feel even more than ever I made the right decision. Not worried about the market going down as I would buy the dip but going down and sideways for a lengthy time might be trying which is why I have moved to more cash than normal. ..........ramble!

I always find your postings thought provoking. If you can afford it, money spent improving your house is generally a good thing. We don't have a big house but we do fully make use of every room in the house. We spent about $100k fixing up our house over this past winter and I have to say that its the best money I've ever spent. I got my long-desired hobby room out of this project. I spend a few hours there almost every day. In fact, I am just taking a break from an enjoyable morning wiring up the new model train layout that I am building :-)

I OMY'd to pay for an $80k home remodel two years ago. It seemed pretty wasteful at the time, but when COVID hit it seemed like the best money we ever spent. If we had been stuck at home for the last year in with the old kitchen, flooring and paint it would have been really depressing. Instead we got to really enjoy it.
We said we wouldn't do anything else major to the house besides regular maintenance and now we're talking about doing a small basement remodel once the boys hit the teen years.
So I agree, money on your home when you use it and enjoy it, is money well spent.

When we first bought the house A year ago December and the  Pandemic hit, we said "Wouldn't you know it we buy a house and a pandemic hits" shortly after we said "We are Lucky to have bought the house" because at least we could go out on the water and be outside all the time. Its a lot of work but once I get it all done it will just be general maintenance the house was exactly 25 years old when we bought it so I am redoing pretty much the entire home inside and out but this year from June 1st till we put the boats away I am not doing anything unless I have to. But yeah its the best investment we made but day by day its a lot of work till its not! :-) and as I have said I will get every penny back and then some.

It can be a blast living on the water.  It's great weather today and people are out in their boats.  Sucks for me because, I'm working night number 10 out of 11.   Life on the water is the only life my grown children know. Have fun with your well earned investment.

Adding a tag here:

Holy crap!  Florida homeowners insurance just took a huge leap!   Last year $1800.   Now nearly $2600!  I'm leaving the waterfront in Louisiana because my insurance Flood/Homeowners insurance is over $4000.  Louisiana insurance policy renewal in July.  Hopefully it doesn't go up as much.  All these people celebrating the increase in home values had better factor in the potential insurance costs.

We went up from 1670 to 2100, we are in a zone X.  Thankfully we are homesteaded, the Tampa area is looking at a 10% property tax minimum increase this year as well. And our house is only 2 years old, fully up to date will all hurricane codes and with all the safety bells and whistles.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: thedigitalone on May 18, 2021, 12:13:12 PM

FEMA is actively raising rates until they are realistic to cover properties adjusting for climate change with their new Risk Rating 2.0 program.
https://www.fema.gov/flood-insurance/work-with-nfip/risk-rating

Flood insurance is going to get very expensive for some folks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 18, 2021, 02:21:50 PM

We had a $3500+ increase in our wildfire insurance this year.   Four of our properties are on the very edge of the Wildfire hazard zone designation.   We had the agent look for other carriers, but, turns out that even with the increase, we've still got the best rate in town.   

I did go peruse the FATFIRE forum on Reddit... yikes, those folks have serious money ambitions. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 19, 2021, 04:47:08 AM

Louisiana and Texas are flooding right now.  We may take a little water into our downstairs.  But it's an easy repair if less than a foot deep and not worthy of exciting FEMA.  One more flood and we're forced into mitigation.  Leaving that to the next owner.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 19, 2021, 07:00:38 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 18, 2021, 02:21:50 PM

I did go peruse the FATFIRE forum on Reddit... yikes, those folks have serious money ambitions.

I love lurking on the FatFire subreddit too. Very entertaining to see how the nouveau riche view wealth. One thing that strikes me about that subreddit is that despite nailing the FAT part of the equation, almost nobody there actually seems to be retired.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 19, 2021, 09:15:54 AM

Quote from: Ockhamist on May 19, 2021, 07:43:53 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 19, 2021, 07:00:38 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 18, 2021, 02:21:50 PM

I did go peruse the FATFIRE forum on Reddit... yikes, those folks have serious money ambitions.

I love lurking on the FatFire subreddit too. Very entertaining to see how the nouveau riche view wealth. One thing that strikes me about that subreddit is that despite nailing the FAT part of the equation, almost nobody there actually seems to be retired.

The thing about the internet is that it's really easy to make things up, out of delusion or amusement or both. A lot of those Reddit posts strain credulity.  Way too many people with $20M net worth making $850K per year who are looking for someone on Reddit to explain to them one of those IRA thingies is.

More than once I've thought about sh*tposting there just for kicks just to see how ridiculously implausible a post you can make and still be taken seriously.

I see your point.   It's hard to believe that there are that many 30 somethings with 20 million +  dollars.   They were tripping over themselves on the threads I looked at.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on May 19, 2021, 09:49:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 19, 2021, 04:47:08 AM

Louisiana and Texas are flooding right now.  We may take a little water into our downstairs.  But it's an easy repair if less than a foot deep and not worthy of exciting FEMA.  One more flood and we're forced into mitigation.  Leaving that to the next owner.

Is the Amite flooding into your house, or just a ton of rain with nowhere to go?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 19, 2021, 01:10:58 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on May 19, 2021, 09:49:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 19, 2021, 04:47:08 AM

Louisiana and Texas are flooding right now.  We may take a little water into our downstairs.  But it's an easy repair if less than a foot deep and not worthy of exciting FEMA.  One more flood and we're forced into mitigation.  Leaving that to the next owner.

Is the Amite flooding into your house, or just a ton of rain with nowhere to go?

Latest projections say it will crest before flooding us.    If more rain comes all bets are off.  South Louisiana and East Texas is saturated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: FireLane on May 20, 2021, 07:06:23 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on May 15, 2021, 02:59:27 PM

On some level shouldn’t you expect home owner’s insurance in places like coastal Florida and Louisiana to be expensive due to climate change and rising sea levels? I wonder if there will be a time in the not distant future when you aren’t able to get insurance at all.

Yep. There was a good article in ProPublica about this:

https://www.propublica.org/article/climate-change-will-force-a-new-american-migration

There are already many places in the U.S. where it makes no economic sense for people to live - places that are all but uninhabitable now, or will be in the very near future. The only reason that settlements still exist there is because federal or state programs are acting as a backstop when private insurers pull out, allowing homes that are repeatedly burned down or flooded out to be rebuilt. But even a country as rich as America won't be able to pay the bills forever:

Quote

That’s what happened in Florida. Hurricane Andrew reduced parts of cities to landfill and cost insurers nearly $16 billion in payouts. Many insurance companies, recognizing the likelihood that it would happen again, declined to renew policies and left the state. So the Florida Legislature created a state-run company to insure properties itself, preventing both an exodus and an economic collapse by essentially pretending that the climate vulnerabilities didn’t exist.

As a result, Florida’s taxpayers by 2012 had assumed liabilities worth some $511 billion — more than seven times the state’s total budget — as the value of coastal property topped $2.8 trillion. Another direct hurricane risked bankrupting the state. Florida, concerned that it had taken on too much risk, has since scaled back its self-insurance plan. But the development that resulted is still in place.

In the next few decades, there are places that will have to be abandoned. Whoever buys land there now is acquiring a soon-to-be-stranded asset.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 20, 2021, 08:32:20 PM

Interesting article about the climate change migration.  Here's a few selected paragraphs:

"Then what? One influential 2018 study, published in the Journal of the Association of Environmental and Resource Economists, suggests that 1 in 12 Americans in the Southern half of the country will move toward California, the Mountain West or the Northwest over the next 45 years because of climate influences alone."

Let’s start with some basics. Across the country, it’s going to get hot. Buffalo, New York, may feel in a few decades like Tempe, Arizona, does today, and Tempe itself will sustain 100-degree average summer temperatures by the end of the century.

Crop yields, though, will drop sharply with every degree of warming. By 2050, researchers at the University of Chicago and the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies found, Dust Bowl-era yields will be the norm, even as demand for scarce water jumps by as much as 20%. Another extreme drought would drive near-total crop losses worse than the Dust Bowl, kneecapping the broader economy. At that point, the authors write, “abandonment is one option.”

Once you accept that climate change is fast making large parts of the United States nearly uninhabitable, the future looks like this: With time, the bottom half of the country grows inhospitable, dangerous and hot. Something like a tenth of the people who live in the South and the Southwest — from South Carolina to Alabama to Texas to Southern California — decide to move north in search of a better economy and a more temperate environment. Those who stay behind are disproportionately poor and elderly.

The author believes that people will migrate to places like Rochester, Detroit, Milwaukee and Duluth, Minn.  The rust belt may shine again.




 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 20, 2021, 09:23:15 PM

I believe that was the same article I read a few months back. It talked about climate change migrants and I believe it makes perfect sense. In a way my family is living it.

In the past year my immediate family moved from the Bay Area to seattle. We had Reasons but one that is important to me deep down inside is going someplace cooler and wetter. I’ve seen my hometown get hotter and drier since I was a kid. My parents and sister saw that as well as the wildfires and decided to sell everything and move out of the country.

If we read the same article then another part of it imagined a future where the bottom part of the country is emptying out due to heat and water scarcity and increased hurricane activity and cities like Seattle being big winners as people move north.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 21, 2021, 01:24:59 AM

If it comes to it I can self insure in Florida for wind, fire, etc.  There is no flood risk ever.  I'd just need liability insurance to cover potential liability lawsuits.  Nice being a fresking millionaire isn't it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 21, 2021, 04:06:37 AM

Unfortunately for you/our friends to the South the predicted yesterday Hurricane season to be higher than average this year and might start early. Not that there very good at forecasting but not something you ever really want to hear. We are experiencing Deep South weather in WI right now. Close to 90 today and humid.  Our lake is going to warm up in a hurry . Was in the mid 60's about a week ago but after this week it will be easily in the high 70's. Its amazing how fast it can warm up being an inland lake. And last two days no wind so its been flat as can be. We don't have to pay additional insurances like wind or flood insurance but our taxes are higher usually than not living on a lake and its a lot of work. Expenses are higher for sure taking care of your property as well as your boat , dock etc.. and people stopping by but that's all part of the lifestyle one choses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 21, 2021, 06:21:08 AM

With this climate change thing, I may need to run the air conditioner more than the 10-12 hours I ran it last Summer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 21, 2021, 06:39:28 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 21, 2021, 04:06:37 AM

Unfortunately for you/our friends to the South the predicted yesterday Hurricane season to be higher than average this year and might start early. Not that there very good at forecasting but not something you ever really want to hear. We are experiencing Deep South weather in WI right now. Close to 90 today and humid.  Our lake is going to warm up in a hurry . Was in the mid 60's about a week ago but after this week it will be easily in the high 70's. Its amazing how fast it can warm up being an inland lake. And last two days no wind so its been flat as can be. We don't have to pay additional insurances like wind or flood insurance but our taxes are higher usually than not living on a lake and its a lot of work. Expenses are higher for sure taking care of your property as well as your boat , dock etc.. and people stopping by but that's all part of the lifestyle one choses.

Here is an interesting tool to help you understand how climate change is likely to affect you in the next 30 odd years: https://fitzlab.shinyapps.io/cityapp/

I'm not sure exactly where in Wisconsin you live but Milwaukee, WI of 2050 will be like Chester, PA of 2020

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 21, 2021, 09:16:42 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 21, 2021, 01:24:59 AM

If it comes to it I can self insure in Florida for wind, fire, etc.  There is no flood risk ever.  I'd just need liability insurance to cover potential liability lawsuits.  Nice being a fresking millionaire isn't it.

After paying off my home mortgage I thought long and hard about how much I'm willing to pay and what coverage / deductible I'm willing to have.  Long story short, it's pretty easy to justify the cost of insurance vs. self-insuring.  I'm even more convinced of that after winter storm Uri destroyed homes due to pipes bursting, and that was only in a one year sample.  There were also all of those hurricanes last summer and quite likely this summer and every summer going forward... 

Maybe you save 10 or 20 thousand dollars over 5-10 years... In one adverse event, you can easily lose 50k...

I'll keep my eye on it if home insurance rates go bonkers - and flood insurance probably will here in Houston, but that's a whole separate discussion and I don't live in a flood area nor have flood insurance...  I'm even starting to rethink how long I'll gamble on that one...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 21, 2021, 09:37:40 AM

It looks like Alaska, Canada & Russia will be the big winners as the climate continues to get warmer.  Might not be a bad idea to buy a few acres in Alaska or Canada sooner than later. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 21, 2021, 10:06:17 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 21, 2021, 09:37:40 AM

It looks like Alaska, Canada & Russia will be the big winners as the climate continues to get warmer.  Might not be a bad idea to buy a few acres in Alaska or Canada sooner than later.

There is a break over point where the insurance is no longer worth it.  The $2600 I'll be paying now in Florida can double and still be worth it.  If it rises to $10,000 a year I'll have to consider just putting that into rainy day savings instead.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 21, 2021, 01:40:04 PM

Might be time to make that trip to the Matanuska Valley.

https://www.amusingplanet.com/2015/10/alaskas-giant-vegetables.html (https://www.amusingplanet.com/2015/10/alaskas-giant-vegetables.html)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 21, 2021, 02:20:30 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 21, 2021, 06:39:28 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on May 21, 2021, 04:06:37 AM

Unfortunately for you/our friends to the South the predicted yesterday Hurricane season to be higher than average this year and might start early. Not that there very good at forecasting but not something you ever really want to hear. We are experiencing Deep South weather in WI right now. Close to 90 today and humid.  Our lake is going to warm up in a hurry . Was in the mid 60's about a week ago but after this week it will be easily in the high 70's. Its amazing how fast it can warm up being an inland lake. And last two days no wind so its been flat as can be. We don't have to pay additional insurances like wind or flood insurance but our taxes are higher usually than not living on a lake and its a lot of work. Expenses are higher for sure taking care of your property as well as your boat , dock etc.. and people stopping by but that's all part of the lifestyle one choses.

Here is an interesting tool to help you understand how climate change is likely to affect you in the next 30 odd years: https://fitzlab.shinyapps.io/cityapp/

I'm not sure exactly where in Wisconsin you live but Milwaukee, WI of 2050 will be like Chester, PA of 2020

Almost dead center between Milwaukee and Madison- 5.8 Degree increase in Temperature in 59 years. I wont be around but if it was in the winter I would take it!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Allie on May 22, 2021, 12:13:44 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 21, 2021, 01:40:04 PM

Might be time to make that trip to the Matanuska Valley.

https://www.amusingplanet.com/2015/10/alaskas-giant-vegetables.html (https://www.amusingplanet.com/2015/10/alaskas-giant-vegetables.html)

You could be next door to Sarah Palin and have hundreds lbs of cabbage.  Livin’ the dream! 

I only joke because we have tons of friends and family there.  It’s beautiful and amazing...and also conservative and odd...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 24, 2021, 02:56:42 PM

I did a deep dive when exploring where to buy more rental homes last year.   We ended up in the Pacific Northwest, but not before doing a huge amount of research in many other areas.   Purchase price, return on investment, local economy, likely appreciation/gentrification,  crime rates and climate all figured into our choices.  Climate change was a new addition to my checklist, and quickly eliminated the West's desert areas, like Phoenix, or any areas sourced by the Colorado River water.  The short list worked down to the Carolinas, Pacific Northwest and Great Lakes region.   The Great Lakes are considered a climate change refuge, but it seems to be that it will get warmer, not change less than other places.    I took the Carolina's off our list, partially because of hurricanes.   I still obsessively review the listings in Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin.   If we buy more investment properties, I'd love to have holdings in one of those states. 

I was surprised to read this article as part of my research.   The Minnesota flora and fauna will change with a warming climate. 
https://mspmag.com/arts-and-culture/climate-change-minnesota/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: omachi on May 24, 2021, 04:33:09 PM

Yeah, there are a lot of changes coming to Minnesota, and a lot of them aren't going to be great. Plenty already well evident, like the increase in temperatures and bigger rain events compared to the past. Not looking forward to that getting worse yet. Temperatures seem to be up more in winter and with higher overnight lows, but it's still evident the rest of the time. Fewer nights where it is comfortable to sleep with the windows open or fans off in the summer now. Switching from winter to summer wardrobe sooner. We do at least have plenty of water and few major natural disasters. I'm planning on sticking it out here, but it's clearly not going to be the same.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 25, 2021, 08:40:27 AM

I may post this in the general forum too, but I thought you smart folks would have some insight-
 I was playing around with cFIREsim today.  I dumped my results down to CSV to look at the detail and I noticed that the dividends in each simulation were really high. The average was 4.6% on a portfolio of 80% equities, 15% bonds and 5% cash. IRL my portfolio has returned on average 2%-3% annually.

Is this a flaw of cFIREsim? 4.6% (of equities) in dividends seems really high to me. Are there other flaws of cFIREsim that I should be aware of?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 25, 2021, 09:07:52 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 25, 2021, 08:40:27 AM

I may post this in the general forum too, but I thought you smart folks would have some insight-
 I was playing around with cFIREsim today.  I dumped my results down to CSV to look at the detail and I noticed that the dividends in each simulation were really high. The average was 4.6% on a portfolio of 80% equities, 15% bonds and 5% cash. IRL my portfolio has returned on average 2%-3% annually.

Is this a flaw of cFIREsim? 4.6% (of equities) in dividends seems really high to me. Are there other flaws of cFIREsim that I should be aware of?

What is cFIRE?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on May 25, 2021, 09:28:48 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 25, 2021, 09:07:52 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 25, 2021, 08:40:27 AM

I may post this in the general forum too, but I thought you smart folks would have some insight-
 I was playing around with cFIREsim today.  I dumped my results down to CSV to look at the detail and I noticed that the dividends in each simulation were really high. The average was 4.6% on a portfolio of 80% equities, 15% bonds and 5% cash. IRL my portfolio has returned on average 2%-3% annually.

Is this a flaw of cFIREsim? 4.6% (of equities) in dividends seems really high to me. Are there other flaws of cFIREsim that I should be aware of?

What is cFIRE?

CFIREsim is a free web-based program that models your future portfolio and FIRE success based on various inputs.  You can do pretty simple scenarios with few inputs, or use some other optional inputs for more complex scenarios.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on May 25, 2021, 12:49:44 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 25, 2021, 08:40:27 AM

I may post this in the general forum too, but I thought you smart folks would have some insight-
 I was playing around with cFIREsim today.  I dumped my results down to CSV to look at the detail and I noticed that the dividends in each simulation were really high. The average was 4.6% on a portfolio of 80% equities, 15% bonds and 5% cash. IRL my portfolio has returned on average 2%-3% annually.

Is this a flaw of cFIREsim? 4.6% (of equities) in dividends seems really high to me. Are there other flaws of cFIREsim that I should be aware of?

Probably depends on the time frame you were using.  Dividends have recently been a bit under 2%, but historically (like pre-1990s) were in the 4%+ area.

I also don't know how the data in your CSV file is adjusted for inflation or not with the various figures, and whether your 4.6% number is calculated as of the portfolio value at the time or of the original portfolio starting value, and how exactly you calculated the 4.6% average.

I doubt it's a problem with cFIREsim.

If you want to, you could double check your numbers in FIREcalc, of which cFIREsim is a loose copy.  The results should be fairly close (but not exact; cFIREsim does some things slightly differently).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 26, 2021, 06:28:32 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on May 25, 2021, 12:49:44 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 25, 2021, 08:40:27 AM

I may post this in the general forum too, but I thought you smart folks would have some insight-
 I was playing around with cFIREsim today.  I dumped my results down to CSV to look at the detail and I noticed that the dividends in each simulation were really high. The average was 4.6% on a portfolio of 80% equities, 15% bonds and 5% cash. IRL my portfolio has returned on average 2%-3% annually.

Is this a flaw of cFIREsim? 4.6% (of equities) in dividends seems really high to me. Are there other flaws of cFIREsim that I should be aware of?

Probably depends on the time frame you were using.  Dividends have recently been a bit under 2%, but historically (like pre-1990s) were in the 4%+ area.

I also don't know how the data in your CSV file is adjusted for inflation or not with the various figures, and whether your 4.6% number is calculated as of the portfolio value at the time or of the original portfolio starting value, and how exactly you calculated the 4.6% average.

I doubt it's a problem with cFIREsim.

If you want to, you could double check your numbers in FIREcalc, of which cFIREsim is a loose copy.  The results should be fairly close (but not exact; cFIREsim does some things slightly differently).

The CSV file is just a data dump of all the outcomes of the simulations from cFIREsim. I pulled it because I was curious of the numbers in detail.
The CSV file shows total dividends for every year and total equity and bond earnings. It's a cool file with lots of data to play with. So I took the total dividends earned for the year divided by the total value of equities at the start of the year and did that for all 93 (57 year) cycles. Then I took the average of all of those.
It does appear that in the pre-crash years dividends were much greater than 3% and then again in the 1945-1950s. And they really start to average 3% or less after 1960.
I just think it's something to note that most of the cycles the cFIREsim is built on include much more returns for dividends than a modern investor is likely to make and I'm surprised that nobody has noticed this before. That I know of anyway.
Also, and I think this has been discussed, but there are no cycles yet that start with 2008 and test that outcome with a rough ten year in the front. I actually don't think it would matter for me, but I'd like to see what it looks like.

At this point I'm just looking at the data for fun. I've used all the calculators and they all say the same thing. Based on historical outcomes, we will never run out of money. We'll likely have to work pretty hard and even spending all the earnings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 26, 2021, 06:42:30 AM

Emphasis in the market in earlier years was on dividends, more modern emphasis is on stock appreciation.

I think it all comes out in the wash.   If the company doesn't hand back profits as dividends then it's net worth is higher its stock should go up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on May 26, 2021, 09:02:45 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 26, 2021, 06:42:30 AM

I think it all comes out in the wash.   If the company doesn't hand back profits as dividends then it's net worth is higher its stock should go up.

This is approximately true.

In every quarterly statement filed with the SEC, there is something called something like a Cash Flow Statement, which describe how cash flowed into a company and then how they used it.

Companies generally get cash from sales of their products and services, sales of corporate assets (like IP or buildings), and financing activities like IPOs or debt offerings.  They might also get a bit of interest if they have cash in the bank, like AAPL apparently does.

They can use the incoming cash in a few different ways.  Of course they use it to pay expenses, like salaries and COGS and taxes.  They can pay a dividend.  They can use it to buy assets (buildings, other companies, their own stock), or invest in expansion projects like a new product line.

Generally speaking management has the responsibility to direct those cash flows in a way that is most financially beneficial to the shareholders.  It can be a wash, but generally there are better and worse decisions.  Sometimes it is better to pay a dividend, other times it's better to invest in a new product line, other times it's better to buy back stock.  The best decision is not always obvious, and it depends on the specific circumstances of the company at that time.  Over time, cash flow management can have a tremendous positive or negative effect on a company, which is in theory one reason that management gets paid well (although I know on this board it's common to rip on high management pay, and I agree with some of the reasons for that sentiment).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on May 27, 2021, 02:03:12 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on May 26, 2021, 09:02:45 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 26, 2021, 06:42:30 AM

I think it all comes out in the wash.   If the company doesn't hand back profits as dividends then it's net worth is higher its stock should go up.

This is approximately true.

In every quarterly statement filed with the SEC, there is something called something like a Cash Flow Statement, which describe how cash flowed into a company and then how they used it.

Companies generally get cash from sales of their products and services, sales of corporate assets (like IP or buildings), and financing activities like IPOs or debt offerings.  They might also get a bit of interest if they have cash in the bank, like AAPL apparently does.

They can use the incoming cash in a few different ways.  Of course they use it to pay expenses, like salaries and COGS and taxes.  They can pay a dividend.  They can use it to buy assets (buildings, other companies, their own stock), or invest in expansion projects like a new product line.

Generally speaking management has the responsibility to direct those cash flows in a way that is most financially beneficial to the shareholders.  It can be a wash, but generally there are better and worse decisions.  Sometimes it is better to pay a dividend, other times it's better to invest in a new product line, other times it's better to buy back stock.  The best decision is not always obvious, and it depends on the specific circumstances of the company at that time.  Over time, cash flow management can have a tremendous positive or negative effect on a company, which is in theory one reason that management gets paid well (although I know on this board it's common to rip on high management pay, and I agree with some of the reasons for that sentiment).

And then you have companies like Apple that just sit on there Billions which makes no sense to me

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: evme on May 28, 2021, 01:04:49 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 24, 2021, 02:56:42 PM

I did a deep dive when exploring where to buy more rental homes last year.   We ended up in the Pacific Northwest, but not before doing a huge amount of research in many other areas.   Purchase price, return on investment, local economy, likely appreciation/gentrification,  crime rates and climate all figured into our choices.  Climate change was a new addition to my checklist, and quickly eliminated the West's desert areas, like Phoenix, or any areas sourced by the Colorado River water.  The short list worked down to the Carolinas, Pacific Northwest and Great Lakes region.   The Great Lakes are considered a climate change refuge, but it seems to be that it will get warmer, not change less than other places.    I took the Carolina's off our list, partially because of hurricanes.   I still obsessively review the listings in Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin.   If we buy more investment properties, I'd love to have holdings in one of those states.

Where's your primary residence?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 30, 2021, 08:32:33 AM

Quote from: evme on May 28, 2021, 01:04:49 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on May 24, 2021, 02:56:42 PM

I did a deep dive when exploring where to buy more rental homes last year.   We ended up in the Pacific Northwest, but not before doing a huge amount of research in many other areas.   Purchase price, return on investment, local economy, likely appreciation/gentrification,  crime rates and climate all figured into our choices.  Climate change was a new addition to my checklist, and quickly eliminated the West's desert areas, like Phoenix, or any areas sourced by the Colorado River water.  The short list worked down to the Carolinas, Pacific Northwest and Great Lakes region.   The Great Lakes are considered a climate change refuge, but it seems to be that it will get warmer, not change less than other places.    I took the Carolina's off our list, partially because of hurricanes.   I still obsessively review the listings in Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin.   If we buy more investment properties, I'd love to have holdings in one of those states.

Where's your primary residence?

We're in California, in a HCOL area. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on May 30, 2021, 10:49:08 PM

accumulation will soon slow down as I'm now unemployed!!
combined with my other half we are now over 2.5m and I have enough that I'm not going back to work.
What does this sort of money do? Well I just paid more for a transatlantic airfare than I have ever paid in my life but I'm able to be in England and assist my father in dealing with my mother  who has dementia. That sort of flexibility is priceless.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 30, 2021, 10:53:06 PM

Quote from: UnleashHell on May 30, 2021, 10:49:08 PM

accumulation will soon slow down as I'm now unemployed!!
combined with my other half we are now over 2.5m and I have enough that I'm not going back to work.
What does this sort of money do? Well I just paid more for a transatlantic airfare than I have ever paid in my life but I'm able to be in England and assist my father in dealing with my mother  who has dementia. That sort of flexibility is priceless.

Good luck with the retirement, flight and family.  Check in with us sometimes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on May 30, 2021, 11:00:44 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 30, 2021, 10:53:06 PM

Quote from: UnleashHell on May 30, 2021, 10:49:08 PM

accumulation will soon slow down as I'm now unemployed!!
combined with my other half we are now over 2.5m and I have enough that I'm not going back to work.
What does this sort of money do? Well I just paid more for a transatlantic airfare than I have ever paid in my life but I'm able to be in England and assist my father in dealing with my mother  who has dementia. That sort of flexibility is priceless.

Good luck with the retirement, flight and family.  Check in with us sometimes.

cheers - I'm in England now and dealing with the stupid quarantine rules.
pre flight covid test. 10 days quarantine. day 2 test. got a day 8 test tomorrow.
being vaxxed means nothing. its very frustrating to be confined to the property.

currently trying to work with the NHS and dementia team, doctor, researching care homes, dealing with my father who is the primary caregiver and too immersed in this to see the paths in front of us and my mother who has now gone from batshit crazy in an endearing way to being unable to hold any meaningful conversation and is on repeat. repeat. repeat.  Its not the most fun I've ever had but it has to be deal with.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on May 31, 2021, 01:08:13 PM

Quote from: UnleashHell on May 30, 2021, 11:00:44 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 30, 2021, 10:53:06 PM

Quote from: UnleashHell on May 30, 2021, 10:49:08 PM

accumulation will soon slow down as I'm now unemployed!!
combined with my other half we are now over 2.5m and I have enough that I'm not going back to work.
What does this sort of money do? Well I just paid more for a transatlantic airfare than I have ever paid in my life but I'm able to be in England and assist my father in dealing with my mother  who has dementia. That sort of flexibility is priceless.

Good luck with the retirement, flight and family.  Check in with us sometimes.

cheers - I'm in England now and dealing with the stupid quarantine rules.
pre flight covid test. 10 days quarantine. day 2 test. got a day 8 test tomorrow.
being vaxxed means nothing. its very frustrating to be confined to the property.

currently trying to work with the NHS and dementia team, doctor, researching care homes, dealing with my father who is the primary caregiver and too immersed in this to see the paths in front of us and my mother who has now gone from batshit crazy in an endearing way to being unable to hold any meaningful conversation and is on repeat. repeat. repeat.  Its not the most fun I've ever had but it has to be deal with.

I’m sorry you are dealing with this as it sounds really difficult, but it is wonderful that you have t he flexibility to take off and help when needed.

When my sister flew over she chose an Airbnb in the countryside on a big property so she could go outside and walk and run while still obeying the quarantine rules.
However she had to leave to post her two Covid tests which was also the rule. There was apparently no physical way to obey all the government Covid rules.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on May 31, 2021, 07:57:46 PM

ok so I'm joining this club:

As a very much a newbie to investment and to FIRE all guidance highly appreciated. I'm currently living in Thailand with my Thai wife and we are in the process of moving to Finland January 2022 and RE there (or atleast try it out and if we don't like it then look for some other place).

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$

I can't really see hitting 4m$ anytime soon if ever, but 3m might be possible. By the end of this year my work will mostly dry up (by my own decision) and I might do some consulting here and there (tech), but mostly will try to learn the life that doesn't involve me running around like a headless chicken and getting peptic ulcers from stress.

I still have a lot of my wealth in cash so in the next months I need to start looking how to invest the money safely.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 01, 2021, 06:45:40 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on May 31, 2021, 07:57:46 PM

ok so I'm joining this club:

As a very much a newbie to investment and to FIRE all guidance highly appreciated. I'm currently living in Thailand with my Thai wife and we are in the process of moving to Finland January 2022 and RE there (or atleast try it out and if we don't like it then look for some other place).

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$

I can't really see hitting 4m$ anytime soon if ever, but 3m might be possible. By the end of this year my work will mostly dry up (by my own decision) and I might do some consulting here and there (tech), but mostly will try to learn the life that doesn't involve me running around like a headless chicken and getting peptic ulcers from stress.

I still have a lot of my wealth in cash so in the next months I need to start looking how to invest the money safely.

Welcome aboard.  Wow that's a crazy ascension in net worth.  Good luck with the move and the freedom you'll enjoy from the fruits of your labor.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 01, 2021, 07:00:19 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on May 31, 2021, 07:57:46 PM

ok so I'm joining this club:

As a very much a newbie to investment and to FIRE all guidance highly appreciated. I'm currently living in Thailand with my Thai wife and we are in the process of moving to Finland January 2022 and RE there (or atleast try it out and if we don't like it then look for some other place).

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$

I can't really see hitting 4m$ anytime soon if ever, but 3m might be possible. By the end of this year my work will mostly dry up (by my own decision) and I might do some consulting here and there (tech), but mostly will try to learn the life that doesn't involve me running around like a headless chicken and getting peptic ulcers from stress.

What currency is that in?

Those are some, frankly, pretty unbelievable numbers if it's in dollars.    And if they are accurate, why wouldn't you think you would hit 4 million at that rate of growth?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 01, 2021, 07:08:37 AM

Well, I'll be damned. I've got to share this somewhere and this feels like a good spot. Zillow estimates are pretty accurate for our properties these days. Lately, our rentals seem to be zooming up in value, so I ran the numbers on them all. The total estimate is $3.1M. Our mortgage balances are $500k total, so roughly $2.6M net.

I know we don't like to use illiquid assets for this thread, but dang!

Related: I've mentioned before that the Redfin estimate for our primary home is about $300k below Zillow, which is nuts. Because I follow the market, I know that even the Zestimate is low. Weird, but in a good way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on June 01, 2021, 08:02:30 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 01, 2021, 06:45:40 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on May 31, 2021, 07:57:46 PM

ok so I'm joining this club:

As a very much a newbie to investment and to FIRE all guidance highly appreciated. I'm currently living in Thailand with my Thai wife and we are in the process of moving to Finland January 2022 and RE there (or atleast try it out and if we don't like it then look for some other place).

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$

I can't really see hitting 4m$ anytime soon if ever, but 3m might be possible. By the end of this year my work will mostly dry up (by my own decision) and I might do some consulting here and there (tech), but mostly will try to learn the life that doesn't involve me running around like a headless chicken and getting peptic ulcers from stress.

I still have a lot of my wealth in cash so in the next months I need to start looking how to invest the money safely.

Welcome aboard.  Wow that's a crazy ascension in net worth.  Good luck with the move and the freedom you'll enjoy from the fruits of your labor.

Thanks, the crazy ascension is due to the fact that I didn't list shares in my own company previous to last month as an asset, but now that I sold some and there is agreement for the rest it makes sense to add that as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on June 01, 2021, 08:04:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 01, 2021, 07:00:19 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on May 31, 2021, 07:57:46 PM

ok so I'm joining this club:

As a very much a newbie to investment and to FIRE all guidance highly appreciated. I'm currently living in Thailand with my Thai wife and we are in the process of moving to Finland January 2022 and RE there (or atleast try it out and if we don't like it then look for some other place).

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$

I can't really see hitting 4m$ anytime soon if ever, but 3m might be possible. By the end of this year my work will mostly dry up (by my own decision) and I might do some consulting here and there (tech), but mostly will try to learn the life that doesn't involve me running around like a headless chicken and getting peptic ulcers from stress.

What currency is that in?

Those are some, frankly, pretty unbelievable numbers if it's in dollars.    And if they are accurate, why wouldn't you think you would hit 4 million at that rate of growth?

Those are USD, I do my math in EUR and then convert to USD for the purpose of this forum. Thing is that my work is drying up and I do some consulting for 120$/hr for next 6-7 months but after that I would have to live from the savings/investments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 01, 2021, 01:22:40 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 01, 2021, 07:08:37 AM

Well, I'll be damned. I've got to share this somewhere and this feels like a good spot. Zillow estimates are pretty accurate for our properties these days. Lately, our rentals seem to be zooming up in value, so I ran the numbers on them all. The total estimate is $3.1M. Our mortgage balances are $500k total, so roughly $2.6M net.

I know we don't like to use illiquid assets for this thread, but dang!

Related: I've mentioned before that the Redfin estimate for our primary home is about $300k below Zillow, which is nuts. Because I follow the market, I know that even the Zestimate is low. Weird, but in a good way.

Congrats!  This is great news!  Home prices are definitely up nationwide.    I think the mainstream news is saying 10-11% across the board.  If you happen to own real estate in Phoenix or Boise, 10% is old news.   They are up 30% or more year over year. 
 https://www.weknowboise.com/blog/home-prices-up-100k.html 

 Like stock market chatter, the talk is of the housing price bubble and how long can it last.  I just hope that zoning gets a major overhaul in all this flurry, so that home ownership,  a prime wealth building tool for many, is attainable for the average person.  The rise of the largish Single Family Home into the suburbs, and zoning that encourages urban sprawl into outlying areas, has caused a shortage of affordable higher density housing that gives lower income buyers a chance to jump into the game.   They are being left behind, and that's not good for anyone.    I would love to do a "cottage cluster" type development.  Little cute cottages arranged around a courtyard or  shared greenspace were commonplace in the beach town where I grew up.   They were oil worker housing in the 1950"s.  Current zoning would never allow those now, even if they were the most economically sound options, which is doubtful if land costs are high. 

.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on June 01, 2021, 03:41:12 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 01, 2021, 01:22:40 PM

If you happen to own real estate in Phoenix or Boise, 10% is old news.   They are up 30% or more year over year. 
 https://www.weknowboise.com/blog/home-prices-up-100k.html 

Yep, nice for me as an existing homeowner in Boise.  Not so fun for my son who is trying to become a first time homebuyer here.  I tend to think things have to normalize somewhat (possibly if we have a mild recession and/or rising rates sometime soon), but for a city like Boise that probably just means 5%-10% YoY price growth instead of 30%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: swaneesr on June 01, 2021, 06:53:43 PM

Both our sons have been looking for houses in the Twin Cities MN area. Older son purchased one in Feb. Youngest lost four bidding battles until getting under contract last week.

My wife and I never were involved in a market like this Sellers market.

These surges and bubbles and drops are not good. I don’t try to time the stock market. I certainly would not recommend timing the real estate market.

Idaho is beautiful but 30% annual run ups in real estate?  That is crazy.  This whole thing seems like a bubble but how do you know for sure when the music is going to stop in this property game of musical chairs ?

SwaneeSR


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 01, 2021, 09:06:34 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on June 01, 2021, 08:04:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 01, 2021, 07:00:19 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on May 31, 2021, 07:57:46 PM

ok so I'm joining this club:

As a very much a newbie to investment and to FIRE all guidance highly appreciated. I'm currently living in Thailand with my Thai wife and we are in the process of moving to Finland January 2022 and RE there (or atleast try it out and if we don't like it then look for some other place).

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$

I can't really see hitting 4m$ anytime soon if ever, but 3m might be possible. By the end of this year my work will mostly dry up (by my own decision) and I might do some consulting here and there (tech), but mostly will try to learn the life that doesn't involve me running around like a headless chicken and getting peptic ulcers from stress.

What currency is that in?

Those are some, frankly, pretty unbelievable numbers if it's in dollars.    And if they are accurate, why wouldn't you think you would hit 4 million at that rate of growth?

Those are USD, I do my math in EUR and then convert to USD for the purpose of this forum. Thing is that my work is drying up and I do some consulting for 120$/hr for next 6-7 months but after that I would have to live from the savings/investments.

Welcome - You are certainly doing something right.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 02, 2021, 07:53:30 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on June 01, 2021, 08:04:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 01, 2021, 07:00:19 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on May 31, 2021, 07:57:46 PM

ok so I'm joining this club:

As a very much a newbie to investment and to FIRE all guidance highly appreciated. I'm currently living in Thailand with my Thai wife and we are in the process of moving to Finland January 2022 and RE there (or atleast try it out and if we don't like it then look for some other place).

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$

I can't really see hitting 4m$ anytime soon if ever, but 3m might be possible. By the end of this year my work will mostly dry up (by my own decision) and I might do some consulting here and there (tech), but mostly will try to learn the life that doesn't involve me running around like a headless chicken and getting peptic ulcers from stress.

What currency is that in?

Those are some, frankly, pretty unbelievable numbers if it's in dollars.    And if they are accurate, why wouldn't you think you would hit 4 million at that rate of growth?

Those are USD, I do my math in EUR and then convert to USD for the purpose of this forum. Thing is that my work is drying up and I do some consulting for 120$/hr for next 6-7 months but after that I would have to live from the savings/investments.

What Swordguy is getting at is that you doubled your peak NW in one month.  On top of that, you seem to think 3M and 4M are neigh impossible...  At that rate, common sense seems to say that you'll hit 3M by the end of this year just doing whatever you've been doing up to April, and you'll exceed 4M next month if you do what you just did again...  Care to elaborate?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on June 02, 2021, 04:20:07 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 01, 2021, 01:22:40 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 01, 2021, 07:08:37 AM

Well, I'll be damned. I've got to share this somewhere and this feels like a good spot. Zillow estimates are pretty accurate for our properties these days. Lately, our rentals seem to be zooming up in value, so I ran the numbers on them all. The total estimate is $3.1M. Our mortgage balances are $500k total, so roughly $2.6M net.

I know we don't like to use illiquid assets for this thread, but dang!

Related: I've mentioned before that the Redfin estimate for our primary home is about $300k below Zillow, which is nuts. Because I follow the market, I know that even the Zestimate is low. Weird, but in a good way.

Congrats!  This is great news!  Home prices are definitely up nationwide.    I think the mainstream news is saying 10-11% across the board.  If you happen to own real estate in Phoenix or Boise, 10% is old news.   They are up 30% or more year over year. 
 https://www.weknowboise.com/blog/home-prices-up-100k.html 

 Like stock market chatter, the talk is of the housing price bubble and how long can it last.  I just hope that zoning gets a major overhaul in all this flurry, so that home ownership,  a prime wealth building tool for many, is attainable for the average person.  The rise of the largish Single Family Home into the suburbs, and zoning that encourages urban sprawl into outlying areas, has caused a shortage of affordable higher density housing that gives lower income buyers a chance to jump into the game.   They are being left behind, and that's not good for anyone.    I would love to do a "cottage cluster" type development.  Little cute cottages arranged around a courtyard or  shared greenspace were commonplace in the beach town where I grew up.   They were oil worker housing in the 1950"s.  Current zoning would never allow those now, even if they were the most economically sound options, which is doubtful if land costs are high. 

.

It certainly is a sellers market...for now.  However, I just can't understand how buyers can afford these high prices ( especially first timers ).  Unfortunately, I think many folks are getting in waaaaaay over their head.  It's not quite the same as in 2008...as in I don't think the entire system will collapse if the bubble bursts...but damn it sure gives me a bad feeling.

I feel really bad for first time home buyers.  Back when we bought our first home there were developers who actually specialized in 'starter homes'.  You just don't see that these days.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 02, 2021, 07:41:26 PM

It certainly is a sellers market...for now.  However, I just can't understand how buyers can afford these high prices ( especially first timers ).  Unfortunately, I think many folks are getting in waaaaaay over their head.  It's not quite the same as in 2008...as in I don't think the entire system will collapse if the bubble bursts...but damn it sure gives me a bad feeling.

I feel really bad for first time home buyers.  Back when we bought our first home there were developers who actually specialized in 'starter homes'.  You just don't see that these days.


Are they still selling homes with Adjustable Rate Mortgages (ARMS) as they were before the 2008 crash? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 02, 2021, 07:48:17 PM

One reason is that mortgage interest rates are very low.   It makes monthly payments on high prices more affordable.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 02, 2021, 08:41:44 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 02, 2021, 07:41:26 PM

It certainly is a sellers market...for now.  However, I just can't understand how buyers can afford these high prices ( especially first timers ).  Unfortunately, I think many folks are getting in waaaaaay over their head.  It's not quite the same as in 2008...as in I don't think the entire system will collapse if the bubble bursts...but damn it sure gives me a bad feeling.

I feel really bad for first time home buyers.  Back when we bought our first home there were developers who actually specialized in 'starter homes'.  You just don't see that these days.


Are they still selling homes with Adjustable Rate Mortgages (ARMS) as they were before the 2008 crash?

Just spoke with a friend who's been a mortgage broker for decades. She says no one wants them. They exist, but no one's buying them because they don't make sense, therefore you never hear about them. Chicken vs. egg.

And Sword Guy's right, people are buying the maximum PAYMENT they can afford qualify for.

@farmecologist, there are lots of things that are different this time. People have a lot more equity in their homes, because lenders insist on it.

Another driver is that housing starts never really recovered after the 2008 crash. For over a decade, fewer homes than normal have been added to the supply. The long term effects of that are driving up prices, but low mortgage rates are keeping payments about the same. The pandemic is making people want more space and WFH options are allowing them to seek it. Finally, FOMO is making people nuts.

Oh, and millennials are buying houses in far greater numbers than predicted. They're just doing it later. They wait until they get married and get pregnant or have a kid. Two houses on my street have sold recently. Watching the parade of parents with very young children and/or pregnant women (couples), was kind of eye-opening. And OMG, the cars they drive! Not a beater in the bunch.

Here's a CA wrinkle: It used to be that people could take their current (artificially low) tax basis with them, but only to certain counties. Now, it's anywhere within the state. We own rentals in the Palm Springs Area, which is much cheaper than LA or Orange County. People in the coastal communities are selling up, moving to the desert, buying a similar or nicer house for about 1/3 the price they got for their old house and they're taking their low tax base with them. It's causing a run on housing and prices are escalating in a way they haven't since 2002-2005. Yippee!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on June 02, 2021, 09:27:10 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 02, 2021, 07:53:30 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on June 01, 2021, 08:04:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 01, 2021, 07:00:19 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on May 31, 2021, 07:57:46 PM

ok so I'm joining this club:

As a very much a newbie to investment and to FIRE all guidance highly appreciated. I'm currently living in Thailand with my Thai wife and we are in the process of moving to Finland January 2022 and RE there (or atleast try it out and if we don't like it then look for some other place).

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$

I can't really see hitting 4m$ anytime soon if ever, but 3m might be possible. By the end of this year my work will mostly dry up (by my own decision) and I might do some consulting here and there (tech), but mostly will try to learn the life that doesn't involve me running around like a headless chicken and getting peptic ulcers from stress.

What currency is that in?

Those are some, frankly, pretty unbelievable numbers if it's in dollars.    And if they are accurate, why wouldn't you think you would hit 4 million at that rate of growth?

Those are USD, I do my math in EUR and then convert to USD for the purpose of this forum. Thing is that my work is drying up and I do some consulting for 120$/hr for next 6-7 months but after that I would have to live from the savings/investments.

What Swordguy is getting at is that you doubled your peak NW in one month.  On top of that, you seem to think 3M and 4M are neigh impossible...  At that rate, common sense seems to say that you'll hit 3M by the end of this year just doing whatever you've been doing up to April, and you'll exceed 4M next month if you do what you just did again...  Care to elaborate?

You may have missed this, but Finntastic explained the 1-month jump here:

Quote from: Finntastic on June 01, 2021, 08:02:30 AM

Thanks, the crazy ascension is due to the fact that I didn't list shares in my own company previous to last month as an asset, but now that I sold some and there is agreement for the rest it makes sense to add that as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 03, 2021, 03:32:26 AM

Well my house goes live for sale today.  I honestly don’t know how much it’s going to sell for other than at least $50,000 more than was my baseline when I began to think about moving to the West Coast last summer.

But some of the insanity is because of the run up in supplies.  A friend of a friend was going to build, their quote went from  $800,000 to $1.3 million.  They now have to wait for supplies to get cheaper.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 03, 2021, 05:19:14 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 01, 2021, 07:08:37 AM

Well, I'll be damned. I've got to share this somewhere and this feels like a good spot. Zillow estimates are pretty accurate for our properties these days. Lately, our rentals seem to be zooming up in value, so I ran the numbers on them all. The total estimate is $3.1M. Our mortgage balances are $500k total, so roughly $2.6M net.

I know we don't like to use illiquid assets for this thread, but dang!

Related: I've mentioned before that the Redfin estimate for our primary home is about $300k below Zillow, which is nuts. Because I follow the market, I know that even the Zestimate is low. Weird, but in a good way.

Wow, yeah, real estate definitely seemed to have a great year, and it would be interesting to actually compare redfin, zillow, etc with actual offers on a home.  Even if they are generally good its understandable if they cant keep up with the current changes given the fast pace. 

I don't think many on this thread would really reject using income producing real estate values in your number, that wouldn't make much sense to me esp. for a hard core RE investor.  I don't include my one rental property in my investments number (just my NW) but that's because its inherited and not really generating much income, renting it was just a way to pay the bills on it until we decided what to do with it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on June 03, 2021, 07:29:42 AM

I'm surprised that people are eager to build new homes while construction prices are so crazy expensive.  We've been lazily selling off waterfront lots, meaning we didn't bother listing them.  We just put for sale signs on them.  The last 2 lots were priced at $1.33M last Fall & buyers seemed to think that they were overpriced.  We raised them to $1.43M a few months ago & have one under contract, with a guy that couldn't afford it last Fall! 


I've been getting interest in the last remaining lot, so hopefully, it will be sold soon & I can retire.  ;)


I don't understand why anyone would be interested in building now.  Guess they got lucky in the stock market or something. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SuperSecretName on June 03, 2021, 07:40:32 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 03, 2021, 05:19:14 AM

I don't think many on this thread would really reject using income producing real estate values in your number, that wouldn't make much sense to me esp. for a hard core RE investor.

I count the equity in my investment property (at 95% value, after commissions, recapture and CG taxes), but do not include the equity in my primary residence.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 03, 2021, 08:03:43 AM

Maybe all those people buying and building homes have looked at this time and compared it to a generation ago.  When the inflation hit, those high house payments kind of shrunk.  Although nobody liked the ever changing prices, the house payment kind of didn't seem so bad after a while.

I've heard lumber price is starting to drop a bit.  Maybe, building won't be quite so bad.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 03, 2021, 09:38:41 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 03, 2021, 05:19:14 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 01, 2021, 07:08:37 AM

Well, I'll be damned. I've got to share this somewhere and this feels like a good spot. Zillow estimates are pretty accurate for our properties these days. Lately, our rentals seem to be zooming up in value, so I ran the numbers on them all. The total estimate is $3.1M. Our mortgage balances are $500k total, so roughly $2.6M net.

I know we don't like to use illiquid assets for this thread, but dang!

Related: I've mentioned before that the Redfin estimate for our primary home is about $300k below Zillow, which is nuts. Because I follow the market, I know that even the Zestimate is low. Weird, but in a good way.

Wow, yeah, real estate definitely seemed to have a great year, and it would be interesting to actually compare redfin, zillow, etc with actual offers on a home.  Even if they are generally good its understandable if they cant keep up with the current changes given the fast pace. 

I don't think many on this thread would really reject using income producing real estate values in your number, that wouldn't make much sense to me esp. for a hard core RE investor.  I don't include my one rental property in my investments number (just my NW) but that's because its inherited and not really generating much income, renting it was just a way to pay the bills on it until we decided what to do with it.

Redfin "knows" the markets I watch and feeds me updates every day. In my home area, virtually everything goes over asking, often way over. RF also notifies me of price reductions, which rarely happen these days.

The area where our rentals are is a completely different animal. It used to be you could assume $15k under asking automatically and no one was offended. Inventory used to turn a lot slower, and of course there were a lot more properties available. Current inventory levels are 10% of normal, things are selling much faster and fetching over asking. Our MO used to be to sort the listings by the longest Time on Market. The last two houses, purchased in 2015 and 2016, were on the market for over a year, and we got each of them for $100k below the original asking price. Fat chance now.

I mentioned on another thread that my brother just bought a house in the PHX area. They had to include that they would pay any difference between selling price and appraisal out of pocket, which cost them $100k extra at closing. They can afford it, but that's crazy. The competing offer promised that if they couldn't secure a loan within 30 days they would pay cash, but they capped out at $50k (IIRC) over appraisal, so the seller took my brother's offer and the deal is done.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 03, 2021, 02:37:33 PM

Zillow is not even close, Redfin for my area is worse. 

Also my stomach is queezy because I just listed for $25k more that I expected.  (I’m following my real estate agents advice).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 03, 2021, 02:53:32 PM

When we bought our current house in 1996, the only mortgage we could get was a 7% 5-year ARM (ie it became adjustable after five years). 

In hindsight, we lucked out: 1996 was the very trough of the market. Furthermore, after the Dotcom crash, interest rates plunged in 2001 right at the moment when our mortgage interest rate became variable - so we did not even have to refinance immediately. And then after the 2008 crash, we refinanced into a fixed rate mortgage at a low rate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 03, 2021, 03:22:44 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 03, 2021, 02:53:32 PM

When we bought our current house in 1996, the only mortgage we could get was a 7% 5-year ARM (ie it became adjustable after five years). 

In hindsight, we lucked out: 1996 was the very trough of the market. Furthermore, after the Dotcom crash, interest rates plunged in 2001 right at the moment when our mortgage interest rate became variable - so we did not even have to refinance immediately. And then after the 2008 crash, we refinanced into a fixed rate mortgage at a low rate.

I was mad in 2008 that I had gone with a 7 year arm instead of a 3 year arm.  My rate dropped to somewhere in the 3% range when it adjusted.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 03, 2021, 04:12:11 PM

My very first house had an ARM mortgage, but it went lower when it readjusted.   Like most people who signed on to the ARM mortgage, I actually had no idea what the pitfalls could be.  It was my first home and IIRC, the mortgage was about 50K, the payment was under $400 a month. I had it for a few years before I paid it off, and it never increased.  I just got lucky with my timing and it never went up.   

Speaking of lucky...   We bought several properties last year that were very good deals at the time. Twelve short months ago.  You know what this year has been like for Real Estate.   It's been nothing but a run up ever since.   Our timing was very fortunate.    That makes up for the wound licking/terrible timing when I sold so much stock in March 2020.    I just can't seem to win in the stock market and my real estate is knocking it out of the park. 

@GreenEggs , congrats on the $100K increase per lot since last fall.   They must be gorgeous to hold 1.43m price tags.  Aren't you paying hefty capital gains on them?

@Dicey - your brother must have really wanted that Phoenix house.   I guess waiving appraisal contingencies is the new normal, though, especially in a place where demand exceeds supply so notably. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 03, 2021, 04:21:38 PM

Decided to update our Net Worth spreadsheet with the new property values, just for fun.   Golly, boy, howdy!    That was a nice jump in value.

We're not far from $3M in net worth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on June 03, 2021, 09:24:09 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 03, 2021, 04:12:11 PM

My very first house had an ARM mortgage, but it went lower when it readjusted.   Like most people who signed on to the ARM mortgage, I actually had no idea what the pitfalls could be.  It was my first home and IIRC, the mortgage was about 50K, the payment was under $400 a month. I had it for a few years before I paid it off, and it never increased.  I just got lucky with my timing and it never went up.   

Speaking of lucky...   We bought several properties last year that were very good deals at the time. Twelve short months ago.  You know what this year has been like for Real Estate.   It's been nothing but a run up ever since.   Our timing was very fortunate.    That makes up for the wound licking/terrible timing when I sold so much stock in March 2020.    I just can't seem to win in the stock market and my real estate is knocking it out of the park. 

@GreenEggs , congrats on the $100K increase per lot since last fall.   They must be gorgeous to hold 1.43m price tags.  Aren't you paying hefty capital gains on them?

@Dicey - your brother must have really wanted that Phoenix house.   I guess waiving appraisal contingencies is the new normal, though, especially in a place where demand exceeds supply so notably.

They have a sunset view of two islands that are about 1/2 a mile away, so the sun sets behind the islands, and there's about 3 miles of open water beyond.  I haven't seen a nicer sunset on the lake.  They're also located on the closest exit to Charlotte, which is the main reason they're worth so much. 


Capital gains taxes are just part of selling property.  A realtor that I'd discussed possibly listing them with wasn't sure that they'd sell for more than $1.0M each, because they're not in the country club neighborhood.  We'll end up getting 25% more without giving 6% to agents, so that covers the taxes & a little extra for my time.  ;) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 04, 2021, 04:50:24 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 03, 2021, 08:03:43 AM

Maybe all those people buying and building homes have looked at this time and compared it to a generation ago.  When the inflation hit, those high house payments kind of shrunk.  Although nobody liked the ever changing prices, the house payment kind of didn't seem so bad after a while.

I've heard lumber price is starting to drop a bit.  Maybe, building won't be quite so bad.

That's a good point.  My dad bought a new home in '73 on a 30 year mortgage and I remember 15 years later when I was headed off to college and he was talking expenses to me in real numbers for the first time, what really stood out was him saying the mortgage payment wasn't really a big expense anymore (b/c of inflation) even though the payment was the same as it always was, and he figured one of his biggest money mistakes was not buying a more expensive home at the time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 04, 2021, 07:53:48 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 04, 2021, 04:50:24 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 03, 2021, 08:03:43 AM

Maybe all those people buying and building homes have looked at this time and compared it to a generation ago.  When the inflation hit, those high house payments kind of shrunk.  Although nobody liked the ever changing prices, the house payment kind of didn't seem so bad after a while.

I've heard lumber price is starting to drop a bit.  Maybe, building won't be quite so bad.

That's a good point.  My dad bought a new home in '73 on a 30 year mortgage and I remember 15 years later when I was headed off to college and he was talking expenses to me in real numbers for the first time, what really stood out was him saying the mortgage payment wasn't really a big expense anymore (b/c of inflation) even though the payment was the same as it always was, and he figured one of his biggest money mistakes was not buying a more expensive home at the time.

So true!  Inflation just creeps in.   What's that house worth now?  10x more?  And the payment was probably about $1000.    Dinner and a movie used to be $20 bucks!    Even the Fidelity retirement calculator allows for "future dollars" or "today's dollars" in the calculations.  They know that inflation is inevitable.   The difference is millions at the end. 

A fixed asset like real estate will rise along with other hard costs.   I consider our biggest mistakes all the houses we didn't buy in 2009-2012 because they were $10k or so over what we would pay.  We turned down a couple of nice houses that were $210K, and we would only pay $200K.   Now I'd have 300K in equity instead of 290 on those houses.  Sheesh!  Who knew?  Real Estate is considered an excellent hedge against inflation.  Inflation both mitigates the payment as a percentage of household expenditures and causes the dollar value of the physical asset to rise.  Rents keep pace with inflation also.   Houses that rented for $1500 ten years ago are now $2500.   In fact, the rule of thumb used to be that rent/housing should be 1/4 of your income, now it's 1/3.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 04, 2021, 01:33:39 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 04, 2021, 07:53:48 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 04, 2021, 04:50:24 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 03, 2021, 08:03:43 AM

Maybe all those people buying and building homes have looked at this time and compared it to a generation ago.  When the inflation hit, those high house payments kind of shrunk.  Although nobody liked the ever changing prices, the house payment kind of didn't seem so bad after a while.

I've heard lumber price is starting to drop a bit.  Maybe, building won't be quite so bad.

That's a good point.  My dad bought a new home in '73 on a 30 year mortgage and I remember 15 years later when I was headed off to college and he was talking expenses to me in real numbers for the first time, what really stood out was him saying the mortgage payment wasn't really a big expense anymore (b/c of inflation) even though the payment was the same as it always was, and he figured one of his biggest money mistakes was not buying a more expensive home at the time.

So true!  Inflation just creeps in.   What's that house worth now?  10x more?  And the payment was probably about $1000.    Dinner and a movie used to be $20 bucks!    Even the Fidelity retirement calculator allows for "future dollars" or "today's dollars" in the calculations.  They know that inflation is inevitable.   The difference is millions at the end. 

A fixed asset like real estate will rise along with other hard costs.   I consider our biggest mistakes all the houses we didn't buy in 2009-2012 because they were $10k or so over what we would pay.  We turned down a couple of nice houses that were $210K, and we would only pay $200K.   Now I'd have 300K in equity instead of 290 on those houses.  Sheesh!  Who knew?  Real Estate is considered an excellent hedge against inflation.  Inflation both mitigates the payment as a percentage of household expenditures and causes the dollar value of the physical asset to rise.  Rents keep pace with inflation also.   Houses that rented for $1500 ten years ago are now $2500.   In fact, the rule of thumb used to be that rent/housing should be 1/4 of your income, now it's 1/3.

Lol, you made me do a little digging. When we were shopping for our house in 2013, we identified two contenders. The one we chose was $925k and the current Zestimate is $1.8M. The other house sold for $950k and the current Zestimate is $2.0M. I always had a nagging feeling we chose the wrong house. Except...

The other house was in a posher semi-custom development, but it was further away from the center of town and nothing was within walking distance. It was also 12 years older and needed updating. All the countertops were tile and the kitchen layout was wonky. The buyers did a whole house remodel immediately after purchasing it.

The other house was a five year old custom built house within walking distance to DH's work. When we bought, it was overbuilt for the neighborhood. Since then about 20 similar houses have been built in the general area, helping our comps.

So, did we choose the wrong house? Based on just the numbers, you might think so, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat. The ability to walk to work and not deal with a Bay Area commute is pretty amazing.

I'm glad I did that little comparison. Choosing the right house for us literally gave us a better quality of life, even if we might have made a few more bucks on the other one.

Thanks, @JoJoP!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 04, 2021, 05:52:04 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 04, 2021, 01:33:39 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 04, 2021, 07:53:48 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 04, 2021, 04:50:24 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 03, 2021, 08:03:43 AM

Maybe all those people buying and building homes have looked at this time and compared it to a generation ago.  When the inflation hit, those high house payments kind of shrunk.  Although nobody liked the ever changing prices, the house payment kind of didn't seem so bad after a while.

I've heard lumber price is starting to drop a bit.  Maybe, building won't be quite so bad.

That's a good point.  My dad bought a new home in '73 on a 30 year mortgage and I remember 15 years later when I was headed off to college and he was talking expenses to me in real numbers for the first time, what really stood out was him saying the mortgage payment wasn't really a big expense anymore (b/c of inflation) even though the payment was the same as it always was, and he figured one of his biggest money mistakes was not buying a more expensive home at the time.

So true!  Inflation just creeps in.   What's that house worth now?  10x more?  And the payment was probably about $1000.    Dinner and a movie used to be $20 bucks!    Even the Fidelity retirement calculator allows for "future dollars" or "today's dollars" in the calculations.  They know that inflation is inevitable.   The difference is millions at the end. 

A fixed asset like real estate will rise along with other hard costs.   I consider our biggest mistakes all the houses we didn't buy in 2009-2012 because they were $10k or so over what we would pay.  We turned down a couple of nice houses that were $210K, and we would only pay $200K.   Now I'd have 300K in equity instead of 290 on those houses.  Sheesh!  Who knew?  Real Estate is considered an excellent hedge against inflation.  Inflation both mitigates the payment as a percentage of household expenditures and causes the dollar value of the physical asset to rise.  Rents keep pace with inflation also.   Houses that rented for $1500 ten years ago are now $2500.   In fact, the rule of thumb used to be that rent/housing should be 1/4 of your income, now it's 1/3.

Lol, you made me do a little digging. When we were shopping for our house in 2013, we identified two contenders. The one we chose was $925k and the current Zestimate is $1.8M. The other house sold for $950k and the current Zestimate is $2.0M. I always had a nagging feeling we chose the wrong house. Except...

The other house was in a posher semi-custom development, but it was further away from the center of town and nothing was within walking distance. It was also 12 years older and needed updating. All the countertops were tile and the kitchen layout was wonky. The buyers did a whole house remodel immediately after purchasing it.

The other house was a five year old custom built house within walking distance to DH's work. When we bought, it was overbuilt for the neighborhood. Since then about 20 similar houses have been built in the general area, helping our comps.

So, did we choose the wrong house? Based on just the numbers, you might think so, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat. The ability to walk to work and not deal with a Bay Area commute is pretty amazing.

I'm glad I did that little comparison. Choosing the right house for us literally gave us a better quality of life, even if we might have made a few more bucks on the other one.

Thanks, @JoJoP!

I'd say you absolutely chose the right house, Dicey!   Quality of life is a huge factor,  maybe THE huge factor, and walking distance to work for your husband is a peace of mind choice as well as a savings in car costs, time, stress, etc etc etc.  The rest is just fun to think about, the what ifs... Of course you know that or you wouldn't be on this forum where quality of life vs. the rat race is the major theme.   

MMM, the boss himself,  wrote a post about commuting that was excellent.  I discussed it nearly verbatim with my commuting child.   

 Plus road rage is a real hazard.  I was just reading the news that some idiot shot and killed a little kid going to kindergarten because his mom flashed the bird.  Truly heartbreaking. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 05, 2021, 10:19:20 AM

Hello folks, new member here; have been reading the thread a bit and this seems like a good group.

My story -- I got a bit of a late start on things with a divorce several years back.  At 52 years old and NW is conservatively at $2.6M, with about $2.1M actively invested and the remaining $0.5M in home equity. 

I'm probably a bit more focused on the FI aspects of things, although I do see "retirement" from the corporate world in the next 5 years.  We will then see what's next.  In the meantime, still work to be done in getting kids all the way thru college/grad school, as well as getting the mortgage and the spending under better control.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 05, 2021, 01:38:38 PM

Quote from: swaneesr on June 01, 2021, 06:53:43 PM

Both our sons have been looking for houses in the Twin Cities MN area. Older son purchased one in Feb. Youngest lost four bidding battles until getting under contract last week.

My wife and I never were involved in a market like this Sellers market.

These surges and bubbles and drops are not good. I don’t try to time the stock market. I certainly would not recommend timing the real estate market.

Idaho is beautiful but 30% annual run ups in real estate?  That is crazy.  This whole thing seems like a bubble but how do you know for sure when the music is going to stop in this property game of musical chairs ?

SwaneeSR


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Agree that the Real Estate price movement is a real concern.  It is especially concerning because I would like to either by a second home or retire to a different location than my present one in the Midwest.  With some areas experiencing this type of property inflation it really impacts one's ability to do that.   If my home price is increasing at 6-7% per year (lately) and the target location (TBD) is increasing at 20%, wow, what an impact that has on purchasing power!

Its one of the items in my spreadsheet calc that is giving me pause on where my actual RE number is!   Good for those who are experiencing this property inflation but I agree with you -- for those on the outside looking in (whether new home buyers or "new to the area" home buyers), its a nightmare.   

As to Zillow estimates, I tend to never believe them.  My home is estimated at $1.3M on Zillow, but I estimate it about 20% lower for my spreadsheet....sounds like Zillow may be more accurate than I realize???

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: texxan1 on June 05, 2021, 05:12:54 PM

I hate the be the big white elephant in the room, but is your Thai wife gonna like finland..... After living in thailand myself a while, i wish i was there and NOT in the states or the UK... My condo in chiang mai misses me badly....

I vote for staying in thailand lol

Quote from: Finntastic on June 01, 2021, 08:04:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 01, 2021, 07:00:19 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on May 31, 2021, 07:57:46 PM

ok so I'm joining this club:

As a very much a newbie to investment and to FIRE all guidance highly appreciated. I'm currently living in Thailand with my Thai wife and we are in the process of moving to Finland January 2022 and RE there (or atleast try it out and if we don't like it then look for some other place).

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$

I can't really see hitting 4m$ anytime soon if ever, but 3m might be possible. By the end of this year my work will mostly dry up (by my own decision) and I might do some consulting here and there (tech), but mostly will try to learn the life that doesn't involve me running around like a headless chicken and getting peptic ulcers from stress.

What currency is that in?

Those are some, frankly, pretty unbelievable numbers if it's in dollars.    And if they are accurate, why wouldn't you think you would hit 4 million at that rate of growth?

Those are USD, I do my math in EUR and then convert to USD for the purpose of this forum. Thing is that my work is drying up and I do some consulting for 120$/hr for next 6-7 months but after that I would have to live from the savings/investments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 05, 2021, 11:01:45 PM

@texxan1 Chiang Mai.. I was there for two weeks.. One of my fav places..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 06, 2021, 03:36:52 AM

Houses in our area are selling closer to 30% and more than what Zillow is saying. I dont think Zillow is keeping up. Never looked at Redfin. Actually was at a gathering last night and a realtor was there as well as a few contractor. The realtor actually is the grandson of the person who started the real-estate company which is the largest by far in our area. Him and he the contractors both said the same things. Unlike 2008 when this bubble bursts it wont be anything like last time. Houses will drop but prices at least in our area were down for so long that they see it slowing down but not crashing. They simply cant build houses fast enough and if anything its slowed down a bit because people are tired of missing out and are getting out now focusing on other things. But as others have said the Millenniums are just really getting started in this housing rise and they have the money to spend. Going to be interesting for sure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 06, 2021, 09:43:55 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 04, 2021, 07:53:48 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 04, 2021, 04:50:24 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 03, 2021, 08:03:43 AM

Maybe all those people buying and building homes have looked at this time and compared it to a generation ago.  When the inflation hit, those high house payments kind of shrunk.  Although nobody liked the ever changing prices, the house payment kind of didn't seem so bad after a while.

I've heard lumber price is starting to drop a bit.  Maybe, building won't be quite so bad.

That's a good point.  My dad bought a new home in '73 on a 30 year mortgage and I remember 15 years later when I was headed off to college and he was talking expenses to me in real numbers for the first time, what really stood out was him saying the mortgage payment wasn't really a big expense anymore (b/c of inflation) even though the payment was the same as it always was, and he figured one of his biggest money mistakes was not buying a more expensive home at the time.

What's that house worth now?  10x more?  And the payment was probably about $1000.   

Heh, I think he bought the house for about $35k (so with 20% down had about a $30k 30 year mortgage). So like a $250/mth payment (well, maybe more like 350/mth at those interest rates).  I'd say today it is prob worth about $250k-$300k

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 06, 2021, 10:45:52 AM

Zillow isn’t keeping up in my neighborhood, it’s weird as most of the area around me is a higher price than my hood you’d think if anything the zip code would have me higher, unless they don’t do well with the fact that The North section is still pretty rural and the south is suburban.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: chasesfish on June 06, 2021, 12:08:29 PM

Quote from: swaneesr on June 01, 2021, 06:53:43 PM

Both our sons have been looking for houses in the Twin Cities MN area. Older son purchased one in Feb. Youngest lost four bidding battles until getting under contract last week.

My wife and I never were involved in a market like this Sellers market.

These surges and bubbles and drops are not good. I don’t try to time the stock market. I certainly would not recommend timing the real estate market.

Idaho is beautiful but 30% annual run ups in real estate?  That is crazy.  This whole thing seems like a bubble but how do you know for sure when the music is going to stop in this property game of musical chairs ?

SwaneeSR


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think this is going to run a little bit further.  I've been so wrong on housing and finally had the data change my mind...

The oldest of the baby boomers are 75...

There was a high birth rate that drops off after 1994...

You have a huge number of people born between 1980 and 1994 that are trying to settle into their suburban kid-raising house and it's happening a few years before the baby boomers start leaving their homes (many of which will be leaving involuntarily).

An imbalance of a couple of percent between supply and demand in either direction can cause bigger pricing swings.

Do I think we get another generational sale on real estate?  It depends.   We aren't yet seeing buy side speculation, sell side speculation (non builders adding home inventory), and the government is only going so far in pushing affordable housing (ie subprime) loans.   I think prices will come down, but from what peak?

Its also easy to say "oh, just rent"....but the prices are getting so out of hand for single family inventory relative to rents plenty of landlords are putting their rental units up for sale.

Interesting times

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Eco_eco on June 06, 2021, 01:40:47 PM

Posting to join the $2m to $4m club. Our recent history is:

TNW:
Sep 18 - $1m
Sep 19 - $1.15m
Sep 20 - $1.5m
Jun 21- $2.3m <--- big jump here due to real estate craziness

I assume housing values will drop again sometime soon, but hopefully not enough to drop us back below $2m.

Reaching $4m is largely on automatic pilot for us. Over the coming 20 years the loans on our rental properties alone would take us over $4m, even if invested not a single dollar more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: swaneesr on June 06, 2021, 06:07:18 PM

Quote from: chasesfish on June 06, 2021, 12:08:29 PM

Quote from: swaneesr on June 01, 2021, 06:53:43 PM

Both our sons have been looking for houses in the Twin Cities MN area. Older son purchased one in Feb. Youngest lost four bidding battles until getting under contract last week.

My wife and I never were involved in a market like this Sellers market.

These surges and bubbles and drops are not good. I don’t try to time the stock market. I certainly would not recommend timing the real estate market.

Idaho is beautiful but 30% annual run ups in real estate?  That is crazy.  This whole thing seems like a bubble but how do you know for sure when the music is going to stop in this property game of musical chairs ?

SwaneeSR


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think this is going to run a little bit further.  I've been so wrong on housing and finally had the data change my mind...

The oldest of the baby boomers are 75...

There was a high birth rate that drops off after 1994...

You have a huge number of people born between 1980 and 1994 that are trying to settle into their suburban kid-raising house and it's happening a few years before the baby boomers start leaving their homes (many of which will be leaving involuntarily).

An imbalance of a couple of percent between supply and demand in either direction can cause bigger pricing swings.

Do I think we get another generational sale on real estate?  It depends.   We aren't yet seeing buy side speculation, sell side speculation (non builders adding home inventory), and the government is only going so far in pushing affordable housing (ie subprime) loans.   I think prices will come down, but from what peak?

Its also easy to say "oh, just rent"....but the prices are getting so out of hand for single family inventory relative to rents plenty of landlords are putting their rental units up for sale.

Interesting times

Chasesfish , you may be right…..


glad my DW and I can sit this market out. We will not be making any real estate moves for a couple years.

Swanee


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on June 06, 2021, 09:03:42 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on June 05, 2021, 05:12:54 PM

I hate the be the big white elephant in the room, but is your Thai wife gonna like finland..... After living in thailand myself a while, i wish i was there and NOT in the states or the UK... My condo in chiang mai misses me badly....

I vote for staying in thailand lol

Quote from: Finntastic on June 01, 2021, 08:04:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 01, 2021, 07:00:19 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on May 31, 2021, 07:57:46 PM

ok so I'm joining this club:

As a very much a newbie to investment and to FIRE all guidance highly appreciated. I'm currently living in Thailand with my Thai wife and we are in the process of moving to Finland January 2022 and RE there (or atleast try it out and if we don't like it then look for some other place).

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$

I can't really see hitting 4m$ anytime soon if ever, but 3m might be possible. By the end of this year my work will mostly dry up (by my own decision) and I might do some consulting here and there (tech), but mostly will try to learn the life that doesn't involve me running around like a headless chicken and getting peptic ulcers from stress.

What currency is that in?

Those are some, frankly, pretty unbelievable numbers if it's in dollars.    And if they are accurate, why wouldn't you think you would hit 4 million at that rate of growth?

Those are USD, I do my math in EUR and then convert to USD for the purpose of this forum. Thing is that my work is drying up and I do some consulting for 120$/hr for next 6-7 months but after that I would have to live from the savings/investments.

It was my wife's idea to move to Finland, I wanted to move to New Zealand. The only reason moving out from Thailand is the poor air quality and Finland happens to rank #2 in the world for air quality. We are going for 2 years trial and if we don't like it then we move somewhere else, Northern Italy been one of the options

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on June 06, 2021, 09:04:23 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 05, 2021, 11:01:45 PM

@texxan1 Chiang Mai.. I was there for two weeks.. One of my fav places..:)

Chiang Mai has been my home for past 15 years =D

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: evme on June 07, 2021, 12:14:21 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on June 06, 2021, 09:03:42 PM

It was my wife's idea to move to Finland, I wanted to move to New Zealand. The only reason moving out from Thailand is the poor air quality and Finland happens to rank #2 in the world for air quality.

Air quality is one reason why I want to move to Hawaii. They have some amazingly clean air there :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: chasesfish on June 07, 2021, 07:54:54 AM

Quote from: evme on June 07, 2021, 12:14:21 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on June 06, 2021, 09:03:42 PM

It was my wife's idea to move to Finland, I wanted to move to New Zealand. The only reason moving out from Thailand is the poor air quality and Finland happens to rank #2 in the world for air quality.

Air quality is one reason why I want to move to Hawaii. They have some amazingly clean air there :)

+1 to this comment!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 07, 2021, 08:46:25 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on June 06, 2021, 09:03:42 PM

Quote from: texxan1 on June 05, 2021, 05:12:54 PM

I hate the be the big white elephant in the room, but is your Thai wife gonna like finland..... After living in thailand myself a while, i wish i was there and NOT in the states or the UK... My condo in chiang mai misses me badly....

I vote for staying in thailand lol

Quote from: Finntastic on June 01, 2021, 08:04:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 01, 2021, 07:00:19 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on May 31, 2021, 07:57:46 PM

ok so I'm joining this club:

As a very much a newbie to investment and to FIRE all guidance highly appreciated. I'm currently living in Thailand with my Thai wife and we are in the process of moving to Finland January 2022 and RE there (or atleast try it out and if we don't like it then look for some other place).

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$

I can't really see hitting 4m$ anytime soon if ever, but 3m might be possible. By the end of this year my work will mostly dry up (by my own decision) and I might do some consulting here and there (tech), but mostly will try to learn the life that doesn't involve me running around like a headless chicken and getting peptic ulcers from stress.

What currency is that in?

Those are some, frankly, pretty unbelievable numbers if it's in dollars.    And if they are accurate, why wouldn't you think you would hit 4 million at that rate of growth?

Those are USD, I do my math in EUR and then convert to USD for the purpose of this forum. Thing is that my work is drying up and I do some consulting for 120$/hr for next 6-7 months but after that I would have to live from the savings/investments.

It was my wife's idea to move to Finland, I wanted to move to New Zealand. The only reason moving out from Thailand is the poor air quality and Finland happens to rank #2 in the world for air quality. We are going for 2 years trial and if we don't like it then we move somewhere else, Northern Italy been one of the options

Those short days in Winter could be bad, but the long days in Summer could be good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on June 07, 2021, 08:45:36 PM

We aren’t that far north in Seattle but coming from California it is still quite the change. The summers are the worst because the older kids don’t go to sleep until the sun sets (21:30 sometimes) and the littlest one wakes when the sun gets up (5:00 right now). I love sleeping in winter with all that darkness.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 08, 2021, 03:40:51 AM

Offers for my home will be considered today.  There hasn’t been a huge amount of showings, but the last house that sold in the neighborhood only had 15 total and got 2 offers.

In a Zillow twist, the estimate increased 100k since it’s been on the market, so I now it’s 30k above asking instead of 70k below asking.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 08, 2021, 09:26:14 AM

I just bought a car for about $37k which is about 0.6% of our invested net worth. And just to think that 34 years ago, I bought my first car, a 7 year old Honda Civic for about $2000. That car lasted for 4 years and 40,000 miles and died only when I started work so it did its job very well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 08, 2021, 08:24:07 PM

On an 84 hour straight stint of night shifts.  I've considered selling everything.  I mean everything while it's a fools real estate market.  If I were single it would be done.  I'd live like a nomad.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 08, 2021, 09:32:00 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 08, 2021, 08:24:07 PM

On an 84 hour straight stint of night shifts.  I've considered selling everything.  I mean everything while it's a fools real estate market.  If I were single it would be done.  I'd live like a nomad.

Pretty sure you can afford to end this madness whenever you want...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on June 09, 2021, 05:46:28 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 08, 2021, 08:24:07 PM

On an 84 hour straight stint of night shifts.  I've considered selling everything.  I mean everything while it's a fools real estate market. If I were single it would be done.  I'd live like a nomad.

How often do we use the phrase?  lol

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on June 09, 2021, 06:48:53 AM

100 pages into this thread, and 4 years down the road I’m still working and pondering FIREing.

Things have not really panned out as planned.

Walking away from a job is proving harder than I imagined 100 pages ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 09, 2021, 07:31:46 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on June 09, 2021, 06:48:53 AM

100 pages into this thread, and 4 years down the road I’m still working and pondering FIREing.

Things have not really panned out as planned.

Walking away from a job is proving harder than I imagined 100 pages ago.

You must not hate your job.  That's not so bad.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 09, 2021, 08:58:58 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 09, 2021, 07:31:46 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on June 09, 2021, 06:48:53 AM

100 pages into this thread, and 4 years down the road I’m still working and pondering FIREing.

Things have not really panned out as planned.

Walking away from a job is proving harder than I imagined 100 pages ago.

You must not hate your job.  That's not so bad.

I get the impression, most folks want to hit the FI number one minute and flash the middle finger the next.  I totally get that from previous employers, projects, managers, co-workers...  but since 2007, I've had a really great work situation.  I guess it took putting up with 11 years of mostly crap to get me to appreciate how good things are now.  Hit FI years ago (don't even update my spreadsheets anymore) and still enjoy working. 

I'm not quite tap dancing in to the office like Warren or pulling the ER rip cord so I can spend more time on my 500M yacht and travel to space like Bezos, but I'm not going to complain :)  I'm already plenty wasteful with money, indulging in a lot of wants since I no longer have any needs that I can't afford.  Definitely one of those folks that have gone soft given the generous market conditions year after year...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 09, 2021, 09:25:40 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 08, 2021, 09:26:14 AM

I just bought a car for about $37k which is about 0.6% of our invested net worth. And just to think that 34 years ago, I bought my first car, a 7 year old Honda Civic for about $2000. That car lasted for 4 years and 40,000 miles and died only when I started work so it did its job very well.

Yeah, isn't it crazy that plopping down cash for a new car may easily move your net worth less than the market does ON THAT DAY.

i had a Honda civic hatchback that was a trooper for me as well long ago.  And the gas mileage was a bonus, I remember the first time a fill up cost me $10 I couldn't believe it (had like a 10 gallon tank or something? but would go forever, like when hybrids came out I couldn't believe the mileage they were bragging about given it was a lot worse than that what i was already getting with that civic).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 4tify on June 09, 2021, 09:59:37 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on June 09, 2021, 06:48:53 AM

100 pages into this thread, and 4 years down the road I’m still working and pondering FIREing.

Things have not really panned out as planned.

Walking away from a job is proving harder than I imagined 100 pages ago.

+1. I’m having a hell of a time bailing as well. I don’t hate my job but I don’t exactly love it either. Feels like I’m a dog conditioned to the paycheck bone, and not 100% sure I’d be happy FIREd.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on June 09, 2021, 11:43:08 AM

Hey, if you have a good situation and like going to work, nothing says you have to RE.

I always wanted the option just in case things turned bad.  Hit my number and things were good, so I kept going.  Things went bad, I tried to make it better.  I couldn't, I left.  But if things had stayed good, I probably would have stayed and probably would have been happy with that choice.

If things go really bad, you can always be RE in a European resort or the Caribbean in about 48 hours.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 09, 2021, 01:37:41 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 09, 2021, 09:25:40 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 08, 2021, 09:26:14 AM

I just bought a car for about $37k which is about 0.6% of our invested net worth. And just to think that 34 years ago, I bought my first car, a 7 year old Honda Civic for about $2000. That car lasted for 4 years and 40,000 miles and died only when I started work so it did its job very well.

Yeah, isn't it crazy that plopping down cash for a new car may easily move your net worth less than the market does ON THAT DAY.

i had a Honda civic hatchback that was a trooper for me as well long ago.  And the gas mileage was a bonus, I remember the first time a fill up cost me $10 I couldn't believe it (had like a 10 gallon tank or something? but would go forever, like when hybrids came out I couldn't believe the mileage they were bragging about given it was a lot worse than that what i was already getting with that civic).

Cars did seem to take a mileage drop from years past.  It was based on reality.

https://www.autotrader.com/car-tips/fuel-economy-why-dont-modern-cars-do-better-than-1980s-models-241487 (https://www.autotrader.com/car-tips/fuel-economy-why-dont-modern-cars-do-better-than-1980s-models-241487)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 10, 2021, 03:06:47 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 09, 2021, 09:25:40 AM

Yeah, isn't it crazy that plopping down cash for a new car may easily move your net worth less than the market does ON THAT DAY.

Yup, this is exactly the point I was trying to make! It just boggles my mind how far I have come. I remember for example how our net worth barely seemed to budge for a long time in the 2000s - but we just kept saving and investing. The payoff came 20 years later - we have been able to put our kids through college and live comfortably.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 10, 2021, 05:41:49 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 10, 2021, 03:06:47 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 09, 2021, 09:25:40 AM

Yeah, isn't it crazy that plopping down cash for a new car may easily move your net worth less than the market does ON THAT DAY.

Yup, this is exactly the point I was trying to make! It just boggles my mind how far I have come. I remember for example how our net worth barely seemed to budge for a long time in the 2000s - but we just kept saving and investing. The payoff came 20 years later - we have been able to put our kids through college and live comfortably.

Ours has been oddly steady in its growth over the last 20 years (my income has always been all over the place year to year, and somehow seemed to spike to prop up the investments in bad market years), basically doubling every 3 or 4 years.  Of course those first couple of doubles were tiny moves compared to what that would be now, but it meant a lot to me then.  I remember when our investments hit around $200k and had the realization a work termination would no longer be a crisis, or even necessarily a bad thing, but rather a forced sabbatical....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 10, 2021, 09:54:19 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 09, 2021, 05:46:28 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 08, 2021, 08:24:07 PM

On an 84 hour straight stint of night shifts.  I've considered selling everything.  I mean everything while it's a fools real estate market. If I were single it would be done.  I'd live like a nomad.

How often do we use the phrase?  lol

Nothing against my wife of three decades.   I love her dearly.  I just have so many irons in the fire it's hard to manage.  I think 2022 will be better.  I'm racing to get my shit straight to finally FIRE in 700 days.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: texxan1 on June 11, 2021, 05:39:24 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 08, 2021, 08:24:07 PM

On an 84 hour straight stint of night shifts.  I've considered selling everything.  I mean everything while it's a fools real estate market.  If I were single it would be done.  I'd live like a nomad.

Im with you Bateaux... if it wasnt for my future asian bride lol, id gone nomad when BP offered me my package.. Insane prices on homes... If i can sort it out, i may still do it till she gets her visa.... sell the house, two of the boats, and one other toy and that gives me 800k to add to my other accounts and that puts me in the AND BEYOND category with a size hussle that still makes me 100k a year....... NOMADS FOREVER lol.... if only i could find a way to have a camper and toy the boat lol

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 11, 2021, 08:17:17 AM

I'm feeling both more retired and richer with each passing day.  The net worth is soaring beyond my wildest dreams and we're not doing anything but letting the days roll by.   We have disposable income for any reasonable or even somewhat unreasonable expenditure.   We're gearing up for travel in the autumn and into 2022, and relaxing at the new beach house in the meantime.    Life is good! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: aetheldrea on June 11, 2021, 08:48:53 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on June 06, 2021, 03:36:52 AM

Houses in our area are selling closer to 30% and more than what Zillow is saying. I dont think Zillow is keeping up. Never looked at Redfin. Actually was at a gathering last night and a realtor was there as well as a few contractor. The realtor actually is the grandson of the person who started the real-estate company which is the largest by far in our area. Him and he the contractors both said the same things. Unlike 2008 when this bubble bursts it wont be anything like last time. Houses will drop but prices at least in our area were down for so long that they see it slowing down but not crashing. They simply cant build houses fast enough and if anything its slowed down a bit because people are tired of missing out and are getting out now focusing on other things. But as others have said the Millenniums are just really getting started in this housing rise and they have the money to spend. Going to be interesting for sure.

But this time it’s different (TM)
In 2006 I bought at turned out to be the peak of the housing market. Might have missed it by one week. I distinctly remember reading articles about how the housing developers had figured out how to manage supply and demand so that there would never be another housing crash, and if there was a downturn it would be so gradual that everyone would be fine. Things turned out rather differently, as I am sure they will this time also, in ways that are impossible to predict, and that we will only see the causes of in retrospect, like the collateralized debt obligations that were such a part of the previous crash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 11, 2021, 09:22:32 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 08, 2021, 09:26:14 AM

I just bought a car for about $37k which is about 0.6% of our invested net worth. And just to think that 34 years ago, I bought my first car, a 7 year old Honda Civic for about $2000. That car lasted for 4 years and 40,000 miles and died only when I started work so it did its job very well.

Wow!  Good for you!  I've been wrestling with whether or not to replace the 11 year old Toyota for over a year and keep deferring the decision because it runs and serves its purpose at the moment.  But I'd like something newer, with better electronics, and better gas mileage.   The finance person in me just can't seem to pull the trigger on it though.  Maybe 2022 or 2023, when hopefully supply chains recover.   But suffice it to say that I fully expect my purchase would be more like 1.5+% of invested assets (due mostly to the fact that I have less invested assets - LOL).   If I could get to it being a 0.6% decision, I suspect it would be a lot easier for me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on June 11, 2021, 09:34:18 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 21, 2021, 08:08:21 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 09, 2021, 12:40:23 PM

As of close of the markets yesterday, we joined this race for the first time with an aggregate balance of $2.005M across all our savings/retirement/investment accounts.  TNW including home equity is somewhere a little north of $2.4M.

Still holding the line at $2.029M LNW after a couple weeks.  I know we're likely to dip below $2M from time to time, but for now it's fun to see our balances staying (just) above that threshold.

The RE market has been pretty strong here as of late, and SmartZip now estimates our paid-off house at $472k.  Probably unrealistic, but I like how it makes our TNW +/- $2.5M.

LNW was flirting with $2.2M for what seemed like months.  We finally crossed that threshold sometime in the past couple weeks and have stayed there since.  With similar market performance for the rest of the year we could be knocking on the door of $2.5M by end of year, or about $3M TNW.   100k/year @ 4% SWR.  That's nuts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 12, 2021, 05:01:23 PM

OP needs to change the title of the thread to keep up with the times ...  and 'To the Moon!'

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 12, 2021, 06:24:37 PM

Similarly I added everything up, assumed a 3% (conservative) WR, pensions and SS and came up with and annual spend of $152,000.

Like thats three times what we spend in an expensive year! and does not include what we currently receive in rent.. I hope to be out of the Landlording business in the next 1 to 5 years.. Why am I even IN the rental business?

On the one hand this is all great because if we had to go into long term care we could probably cash flow it for 30 years and the worse that can happen is some charitable causes will get some fat checks at some point.. Especially Uncle Sam when RMD's kick in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on June 12, 2021, 06:53:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 12, 2021, 06:24:37 PM

Similarly I added everything up, assumed a 3% (conservative) WR, pensions and SS and came up with and annual spend of $152,000.

Like thats three times what we spend in an expensive year! and does not include what we currently receive in rent.. I hope to be out of the Landlording business in the next 1 to 5 years.. Why am I even IN the rental business?

On the one hand this is all great because if we had to go into long term care we could probably cash flow it for 30 years and the worse that can happen is some charitable causes will get some fat checks at some point.. Especially Uncle Sam when RMD's kick in.

We have a fat fire at this point too. But our financial advisor keeps trying to scare by assuming no social security, we live to age 100, 3 percent inflation forever and high health care costs in retirement. And I constantly remind him it’s much more likely I’ll leave some family or charity well off, so I’ll retire when I want, regardless of his scare tactics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 13, 2021, 04:46:00 AM

I dont know. Though Fire'd I am around the Building industry quite a bit having alot of friends in the industry and I kind of believe it wont crash like 08/9. I think it for sure will cool down but Areas like Florida with all the companies trying to move out of California to there will keep growing. Tx I think will continue to see growth no matter what as well as a few other places. Plus we will have awhile before companies can get full employed and so on. The thing that I could see happening is when we have the next correction it could be alot more than 50% or we could drop or move sideways for quite a long time. But I just keep doing my thing because can only plan as best as you can and go from there because after being fired for 6 years 3 months I am not going back to a Job! Things have been really good separate of Covid of course so just trying to enjoy what we have going on right now. And it has been fun to watch the NW go up. A lot of younger investors have really been spoiled and havent lived through major market corrections either. But hey , lets keep this party going! haha

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 13, 2021, 06:56:38 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on June 12, 2021, 06:53:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 12, 2021, 06:24:37 PM

Similarly I added everything up, assumed a 3% (conservative) WR, pensions and SS and came up with and annual spend of $152,000.

Like thats three times what we spend in an expensive year! and does not include what we currently receive in rent.. I hope to be out of the Landlording business in the next 1 to 5 years.. Why am I even IN the rental business?

On the one hand this is all great because if we had to go into long term care we could probably cash flow it for 30 years and the worse that can happen is some charitable causes will get some fat checks at some point.. Especially Uncle Sam when RMD's kick in.

We have a fat fire at this point too. But our financial advisor keeps trying to scare by assuming no social security, we live to age 100, 3 percent inflation forever and high health care costs in retirement. And I constantly remind him it’s much more likely I’ll leave some family or charity well off, so I’ll retire when I want, regardless of his scare tactics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, there's always some possibility of failure someone can easily figure out.  In the end I realized there's nothing working one or two more years would accomplish than being a little flexible in your withdraws wouldn't accomplish in most of these outlier scenarios (which is always an option unless leanFired).  And so in the end you're really deciding between working until you no longer can or just accepting there is always 'some financial risk' to retiring now over later.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 13, 2021, 04:11:36 PM

Exactly.. I would argue the risk of being dead from working a stressful job is far higher than running out of money after you're fat-fired.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 14, 2021, 08:13:31 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 13, 2021, 04:11:36 PM

Exactly.. I would argue the risk of being dead from working a stressful job is far higher than running out of money after you're fat-fired.

The funny thing was that once I internalized that I didn't need the employers, a great amount of the stress disappeared.  However, all of it did not.

Even now - I have a dream about work once in a while.  They are silly dreams about some odd problem to be solved.  Then I wake up and it takes me a few seconds to realize, "I'm not working any more."  And then I smile.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 14, 2021, 10:09:26 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 13, 2021, 04:11:36 PM

Exactly.. I would argue the risk of being dead from working a stressful job is far higher than running out of money after you're fat-fired.

Yeah, actually under the premise of maximizing number of successful RE days in ones life I started considering RE the moment FIRECALC said I had a 50% chance of success ('cause every day I worked past that would seem to lessen the total days retired), but of course most of us do think of unsuccessful FIRE at the backend (old and broke) as being more painful than those on the front end (working when maybe you don't need to), so we shoot for some higher number.

Quote from: pecunia on June 14, 2021, 08:13:31 AM

Even now - I have a dream about work once in a while.  They are silly dreams about some odd problem to be solved.  Then I wake up and it takes me a few seconds to realize, "I'm not working any more."  And then I smile.

Heh, I remember one morning my mom talking about having the pretty common college dream where you realize you haven't been going to a class all semester and the final is starting in an hour.....  She said she had no idea why she woke up stressed, given she was not only long since out of school, but long since retired...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 14, 2021, 01:06:42 PM

Rolled into the Florida house about daylight this morning.  Been busting butt at work or at the Louisiana house since Cinco de Mayo.  Glad to be back here.  I'm about to clean the pool with tropical music and a cold brew.  It's a short stay this time.  Driving back Sunday morning.  Plan to be back in August.  By then we'll be tracking hurricanes no doubt.  There is a low pressure system developing in the gulf now.  We could be driving back to flooding on the northern gulf coast.  Flooding doesn't effect our Florida home luckily.  I can't believe how quickly this year is passing and how much better things are than last year in general. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 15, 2021, 03:18:55 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 14, 2021, 08:13:31 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 13, 2021, 04:11:36 PM

Exactly.. I would argue the risk of being dead from working a stressful job is far higher than running out of money after you're fat-fired.

The funny thing was that once I internalized that I didn't need the employers, a great amount of the stress disappeared.  However, all of it did not.

Even now - I have a dream about work once in a while.  They are silly dreams about some odd problem to be solved.  Then I wake up and it takes me a few seconds to realize, "I'm not working any more."  And then I smile.

Agree with that statement a 100% @Exflyboy . I had dreams for years about still being in the office but they slowly faded away

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 16, 2021, 07:43:12 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 12, 2021, 05:01:23 PM

OP needs to change the title of the thread to keep up with the times ...  and 'To the Moon!'

Naw.  "To the Moon" sounds like Ralph Kramden in the Honeymooners.

"To infinity and beyond" is what?  Toy Story?  I don't know...some show my kids watched a decade ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 16, 2021, 10:21:04 AM

How about $2M to $4M and,...

There is no limit not the moon or even the great beyond.

Until you spend it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: aetheldrea on June 16, 2021, 10:12:16 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 14, 2021, 10:09:26 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 14, 2021, 08:13:31 AM

Even now - I have a dream about work once in a while.  They are silly dreams about some odd problem to be solved.  Then I wake up and it takes me a few seconds to realize, "I'm not working any more."  And then I smile.

Heh, I remember one morning my mom talking about having the pretty common college dream where you realize you haven't been going to a class all semester and the final is starting in an hour.....  She said she had no idea why she woke up stressed, given she was not only long since out of school, but long since retired...

My favorite part of the very dumb movie “Top Secret” is when Val Kilmer is being beaten by the Nazis and loses consciousness and has a dream where he is back in high school but missed finals, oh no, I’m back in school, then wakes up and realizes he is only being beaten by Nazis, and gets a big smile on his face.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on June 19, 2021, 11:20:54 AM

Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on June 19, 2021, 03:41:59 PM

I have had a couple of dreams about being back in the office, except they are always nice dreams that leave me a little nostalgic.

Being stuck at home caring for little kids 24/7/365/forever during Covid is 100x harder than working for Big Corporate 40 hours/week. If this is what FIRE was going to look like indefinitely I’d go back to work in a heartbeat. Thank gods there is light at the end of the tunnel soon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on June 19, 2021, 06:52:53 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 19, 2021, 11:20:54 AM

Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?

It's when you start thinking about time instead of money.  You could have written:

"Have an easy time to make a decision to retire. Although I don't know how much time we have left for most things we want to do, but more time is better.

There is no such thing as having more time.  I am always spend my time, and quickly."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 19, 2021, 07:10:27 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 19, 2021, 06:52:53 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 19, 2021, 11:20:54 AM

Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?

It's when you start thinking about time instead of money.  You could have written:

"Have an easy time to make a decision to retire. Although I don't know how much time we have left for most things we want to do, but more time is better.

There is no such thing as having more time.  I am always spending my time, and quickly."

I supposed I ultimately realized that I would not only have to spend the 4% recurring amount, but also some of the 'stache proportional to my remaining years...  The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity, but if you really are a spender, then also have at that principal!  You can use actuarial tables, divide it evenly, or just balance spending more now vs. using government programs later.  At some point, you are actually just helping Uncle Sam spend less...

Once you hit FI, it's all up to you just what you want.  If you want to keep making more, then no-one here is going to stop you!  Just don't be bitter when others get to inherit the fruits of your labor if that was not what you intended...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on June 19, 2021, 08:37:33 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 19, 2021, 07:10:27 PM

The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 19, 2021, 08:50:37 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 19, 2021, 08:37:33 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 19, 2021, 07:10:27 PM

The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)

It simply fascinates me how very many people in the FIRE community don't seem to understand how the 4% rule is defined.   Or that it's not a rule.  Or that it's not guaranteed.    Or how to calculate it.    (I'm ignoring people brand new to the FIRE movement in making those comments.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on June 20, 2021, 06:18:10 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 19, 2021, 08:50:37 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 19, 2021, 08:37:33 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 19, 2021, 07:10:27 PM

The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)

It simply fascinates me how very many people in the FIRE community don't seem to understand how the 4% rule is defined.   Or that it's not a rule.  Or that it's not guaranteed.    Or how to calculate it.    (I'm ignoring people brand new to the FIRE movement in making those comments.)

Yeah, but what EV said is not entirely false even though it's not the 4% rule (common parlance, not actually a rule) as studied and concluded because 4% is basically a worse case scenario so once you get past a SORR time-frame with your portfolio having grown AND your expected need for the funds decreases (lifespan) it is highly likely you can increase withdrawal and from principle without much risk of running out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 20, 2021, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 19, 2021, 08:50:37 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 19, 2021, 08:37:33 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 19, 2021, 07:10:27 PM

The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)

!

It simply fascinates me how very many people in the FIRE community don't seem to understand how the 4% rule is defined.   Or that it's not a rule.  Or that it's not guaranteed.    Or how to calculate it.    (I'm ignoring people brand new to the FIRE movement in making those comments.)

Or it could just be that we are so familiar with it that we don’t feel the need to be perfect and precise when discussing it in this thread

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on June 20, 2021, 08:46:15 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 20, 2021, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 19, 2021, 08:50:37 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 19, 2021, 08:37:33 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 19, 2021, 07:10:27 PM

The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)

!

It simply fascinates me how very many people in the FIRE community don't seem to understand how the 4% rule is defined.   Or that it's not a rule.  Or that it's not guaranteed.    Or how to calculate it.    (I'm ignoring people brand new to the FIRE movement in making those comments.)

Or it could just be that we are so familiar with it that we don’t feel the need to be perfect and precise when discussing it in this thread

Sure.  Feel free to be imprecise; I was in my reply as well:  it's called the 4% rule but it isn't a rule.  Right.  Whatever.

But I thought that "I supposed I ultimately realized that I would not only have to spend the 4% recurring amount, but also some of the 'stache proportional to my remaining years...  The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity, but if you really are a spender, then also have at that principal!" was a pretty material misstatement and thought it best to make a mild effort to point that out for the benefit of people who aren't familiar.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 20, 2021, 10:02:33 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 20, 2021, 08:46:15 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 20, 2021, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 19, 2021, 08:50:37 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 19, 2021, 08:37:33 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 19, 2021, 07:10:27 PM

The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)

!

It simply fascinates me how very many people in the FIRE community don't seem to understand how the 4% rule is defined.   Or that it's not a rule.  Or that it's not guaranteed.    Or how to calculate it.    (I'm ignoring people brand new to the FIRE movement in making those comments.)

Or it could just be that we are so familiar with it that we don’t feel the need to be perfect and precise when discussing it in this thread

Sure.  Feel free to be imprecise; I was in my reply as well:  it's called the 4% rule but it isn't a rule.  Right.  Whatever.

But I thought that "I supposed I ultimately realized that I would not only have to spend the 4% recurring amount, but also some of the 'stache proportional to my remaining years...  The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity, but if you really are a spender, then also have at that principal!" was a pretty material misstatement and thought it best to make a mild effort to point that out for the benefit of people who aren't familiar.

What I was thinking when I was replying to Flyingaway is that most people probably think folks like Pete are crazy for living on $40k/yr because they retired with $1M, especially considering that he makes $400k/yr on his blog and his investments have probably doubled to $2M since 2007...  I guess I worry more that I will be too conservative in FIRE and never touch my stache...  Nothing wrong with that, but, in line with my name - once you've hit escape velocity, the stache will grow and grow....  nothing wrong with spending a bit of it .

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 21, 2021, 03:49:04 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 20, 2021, 10:02:33 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 20, 2021, 08:46:15 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 20, 2021, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 19, 2021, 08:50:37 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 19, 2021, 08:37:33 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 19, 2021, 07:10:27 PM

The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)

!

It simply fascinates me how very many people in the FIRE community don't seem to understand how the 4% rule is defined.   Or that it's not a rule.  Or that it's not guaranteed.    Or how to calculate it.    (I'm ignoring people brand new to the FIRE movement in making those comments.)

Or it could just be that we are so familiar with it that we don’t feel the need to be perfect and precise when discussing it in this thread

Sure.  Feel free to be imprecise; I was in my reply as well:  it's called the 4% rule but it isn't a rule.  Right.  Whatever.

But I thought that "I supposed I ultimately realized that I would not only have to spend the 4% recurring amount, but also some of the 'stache proportional to my remaining years...  The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity, but if you really are a spender, then also have at that principal!" was a pretty material misstatement and thought it best to make a mild effort to point that out for the benefit of people who aren't familiar.

What I was thinking when I was replying to Flyingaway is that most people probably think folks like Pete are crazy for living on $40k/yr because they retired with $1M, especially considering that he makes $400k/yr on his blog and his investments have probably doubled to $2M since 2007...  I guess I worry more that I will be too conservative in FIRE and never touch my stache...  Nothing wrong with that, but, in line with my name - once you've hit escape velocity, the stache will grow and grow....  nothing wrong with spending a bit of it .

But do you think he really does? thats a different topic in itself.

I know where your coming from EV and I do agree with SG as this is a topic that comes up so much and there is so much information on it that if you are here you should know it by now. Having said that the part of the "rule" always has bugged me as well because its usually referred to in the name but yet it is nothing more than a guideline. Plus it seems like so many people try to prove it wrong or right when in reality its again just a guide.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 21, 2021, 05:05:36 AM

Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on June 21, 2021, 05:08:55 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 21, 2021, 05:05:36 AM

Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

Oh my, that is terrible.  The accident was bad enough, but now the coworkers have the additional trauma of someone (a friend) dying. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 21, 2021, 06:07:14 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 19, 2021, 11:20:54 AM

Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?

For me personally, the "stop sign" was when our household net worth went above $5M. Also, my dad died of complications from Alzheimer's last year in his mid 80s. The last two years of his life were not pleasant - which made me realize that the time we have to enjoy our savings may be shorter than we realize.

What are the broad categories of things you like spending for?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 21, 2021, 07:13:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 21, 2021, 05:05:36 AM

Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

Quote from: flyingaway on June 19, 2021, 11:20:54 AM

Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?

I've been biting my tongue on this subject for years. If an explosion, toxic gas release and the death of a colleague don't change bateaux's mind, I doubt any words I can string together will have any impact either, which kinda breaks my heart.

My MIL just died last week, leaving behind at least $2M. She had ALZ for more a decade, and her husband died eight years ago. Fortunately, they did retire early-ish and traveled the world. Of course, those memories were lost forever, but they lived life to the fullest while they could.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 21, 2021, 08:23:19 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 21, 2021, 07:13:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 21, 2021, 05:05:36 AM

Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

Quote from: flyingaway on June 19, 2021, 11:20:54 AM

Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?

I've been biting my tongue on this subject for years. If an explosion, toxic gas release and the death of a colleague don't change bateaux's mind, I doubt any words I can string together will have any impact either, which kinda breaks my heart

My MIL just died last week, leaving behind at least $2M. She had ALZ for more a decade, and her husband died eight years ago. Fortunately, they did retire early-ish and traveled the world. Of course, those memories were lost forever, but they lived life to the fullest while they could.

I'm with you on this one Dicey, Bateaux should take that one as a sign and email in his resignation!  I'm very finnicky about my lungs (and being alive) and I wouldn't go back to a place that just had a toxic gas release no matter what the financial situation was.  All the more crazy to go back having achieved FI and having a fun retirement to look forward to!  To each their own, but 692 more days doing something dangerous that you don't seem to want to do sounds borderline pathological at this point...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 21, 2021, 09:16:11 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 21, 2021, 08:23:19 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 21, 2021, 07:13:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 21, 2021, 05:05:36 AM

Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

Quote from: flyingaway on June 19, 2021, 11:20:54 AM

Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?

I've been biting my tongue on this subject for years. If an explosion, toxic gas release and the death of a colleague don't change bateaux's mind, I doubt any words I can string together will have any impact either, which kinda breaks my heart

My MIL just died last week, leaving behind at least $2M. She had ALZ for more a decade, and her husband died eight years ago. Fortunately, they did retire early-ish and traveled the world. Of course, those memories were lost forever, but they lived life to the fullest while they could.

I'm with you on this one Dicey, Bateaux should take that one as a sign and email in his resignation!  I'm very finnicky about my lungs (and being alive) and I wouldn't go back to a place that just had a toxic gas release no matter what the financial situation was.  All the more crazy to go back having achieved FI and having a fun retirement to look forward to!  To each their own, but 692 more days doing something dangerous that you don't seem to want to do sounds borderline pathological at this point...

Dicey I'm very sorry to hear about your Mother in Law.  I know you guys provided all the love and care possible.   

I'll revisit the possibility of quitting in January.  Maybe it's Stockholm Syndrome on my part. 
Luckily the local news has been pretty hush about the incident and my elderly parents have no idea about it.  They'd be worried. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on June 21, 2021, 12:14:55 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 21, 2021, 06:07:14 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 19, 2021, 11:20:54 AM

Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?

For me personally, the "stop sign" was when our household net worth went above $5M. Also, my dad died of complications from Alzheimer's last year in his mid 80s. The last two years of his life were not pleasant - which made me realize that the time we have to enjoy our savings may be shorter than we realize.

What are the broad categories of things you like spending for?

The category that I could spend a lot of money is entertainment. I like overseas travel and playing at casinos. These activities could be very expensive. Of course, I don't have to entertain myself if I don't have money. But retired and staying at home every day to save money is not a retirement life that I am looking forward to.

However, I do not like my job as an academics anymore. It is just difficult to actually to walk away from such an easy job.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 4tify on June 21, 2021, 02:27:51 PM

I'm half way through Die With Zero and it's totally changing the way I'm thinking about saving & spending. Basically his idea is to maximize life experiences, and he makes some pretty compelling arguments against waiting until you die to give money to kids or charity etc.

I'm starting a bucket list of activities that require good health and pricing them out.

This calculator is also really helpful for overcoming worries about dying broke: https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 23, 2021, 07:39:22 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 21, 2021, 05:05:36 AM

Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear about the death of your coworker.   Your internet pal, JoJoP, sends condolences to your workforce and the family. 

Edited to add:  Sorry about your MIL, Dicey.   My condolences to your family as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on June 23, 2021, 08:28:14 AM

Quote from: 4tify on June 21, 2021, 02:27:51 PM

I'm half way through Die With Zero and it's totally changing the way I'm thinking about saving & spending. Basically his idea is to maximize life experiences, and he makes some pretty compelling arguments against waiting until you die to give money to kids or charity etc.

I'm starting a bucket list of activities that require good health and pricing them out.

This calculator is also really helpful for overcoming worries about dying broke: https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/

I like the idea of giving out money to children when you are still alive and see how they enjoy that gift. It is, however, very difficult to see how much money you really need when you are still in your 50s or 60s, especially many on this forum are talking about retiring as soon as they reach their numbers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: SwordGuy on June 23, 2021, 08:36:01 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 21, 2017, 01:17:18 PM

I'm probably working till about June 2019.  I want to say I retired at 50 and that's the last month to make the claim.   Gives us time to fund two more rounds of 401ks and Roth IRAs.  Will start HSA then as well.  Our youngest is headed to trade school and should finish up about then.  Gives me time to hike the AT SOBO south from Maine.   Going to use vacation time to start working north from GA early 2019 for a few hundred miles. 
Then not sure presently where we go.  Hope to spend about half of what the 2M will yield so it can grow. Will probably find work if it dips below 2M for very long.

Accidentally went to page 1 of this thread and lookee! lookee! what I found!

Dude, at least make your wife promise to come online and tell us you got blown to kingdom come if you decide to keep working and don't make it thru your FMY (Four More Years) Syndrome...

That was said with much affection...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 23, 2021, 12:07:06 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 21, 2021, 05:05:36 AM

Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

I think being terrified for your life does indeed apply.  I wonder if OSHA thinks so.  I was taught that there are acute hazards that happen right away like explosions or electrocution and then there are the chronic things, i.e. chemical exposures, breathing asbestos fibers, breathing particulates,sun exposure etc.  It sounds like your workplace probably has both.  So, you might have missed the explosion, but there could be something long term that could get you too.  The longer you stay in a place like that the higher the odds of chronic exposure getting you.

That's another good reason to be retired. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 23, 2021, 12:12:02 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 23, 2021, 08:28:14 AM

Quote from: 4tify on June 21, 2021, 02:27:51 PM

I'm half way through Die With Zero and it's totally changing the way I'm thinking about saving & spending. Basically his idea is to maximize life experiences, and he makes some pretty compelling arguments against waiting until you die to give money to kids or charity etc.

I'm starting a bucket list of activities that require good health and pricing them out.

This calculator is also really helpful for overcoming worries about dying broke: https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/

I like the idea of giving out money to children when you are still alive and see how they enjoy that gift. It is, however, very difficult to see how much money you really need when you are still in your 50s or 60s, especially many on this forum are talking about retiring as soon as they reach their numbers.

Yes, but it doesn't have to be an amount that's a huge hit to you. 

E.g. I will never forget the time I lost my job, not long out of school (and with a negative net worth b/c of student loans), just after my wife had been laid off, who was many months pregnant with my first kid.  It was pretty challenging moment for me as I wondered if I was failing my new family.  Out of the blue my folks sent me $2k (which prob equates to about $4k today).  My inheritance from them will likely be around $200k, and that $200k just wont matter to me at all, whereas that $2k I got from them was HUGE....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 23, 2021, 04:01:11 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 23, 2021, 12:12:02 PM

E.g. I will never forget the time I lost my job, not long out of school (and with a negative net worth b/c of student loans), just after my wife had been laid off, who was many months pregnant with my first kid.  It was pretty challenging moment for me as I wondered if I was failing my new family.  Out of the blue my folks sent me $2k (which prob equates to about $4k today).  My inheritance from them will likely be around $200k, and that $200k just wont matter to me at all, whereas that $2k I got from them was HUGE....

Similar story: I had practically no money when I started work and was hoping my student car would last for at least a few months until savings could build up. But it died completely soon after I started work - mind you, I had a 150 mile daily round trip to work. My dad sent me a check for $4000 and I was able to use that as a down payment on a car (13% APR no less).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 23, 2021, 06:46:36 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 23, 2021, 12:07:06 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 21, 2021, 05:05:36 AM

Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

I think being terrified for your life does indeed apply.  I wonder if OSHA thinks so.  I was taught that there are acute hazards that happen right away like explosions or electrocution and then there are the chronic things, i.e. chemical exposures, breathing asbestos fibers, breathing particulates,sun exposure etc.  It sounds like your workplace probably has both.  So, you might have missed the explosion, but there could be something long term that could get you too.  The longer you stay in a place like that the higher the odds of chronic exposure getting you.

That's another good reason to be retired. :)

The most common chronic condition I've noticed workers develop is multiple chemical sensitivity syndrome.   Asthma and rashes on the skin when exposed to chemical liquids or vapors.  Some have been hospitalized with asthma like conditions.  Luckily I  haven't developed any exposure related illnesses.   If there are latent effects it's probably too late to matter now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 23, 2021, 06:50:42 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 23, 2021, 07:39:22 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 21, 2021, 05:05:36 AM

Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear about the death of your coworker.   Your internet pal, JoJoP, sends condolences to your workforce and the family. 

Edited to add:  Sorry about your MIL, Dicey.   My condolences to your family as well.

I didn't know the victim.  He worked for an outside contractor.  That most likely contributed to his fear and anxiety.   We intricately know the process and hazards, outside contractors only receive brief training on the hazards present.  They know there are many lethal and explosive substances in use, but the facility is so huge there is no way from them to contemplate it's scope.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: Bateaux on June 23, 2021, 06:55:21 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 23, 2021, 08:36:01 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 21, 2017, 01:17:18 PM

I'm probably working till about June 2019.  I want to say I retired at 50 and that's the last month to make the claim.   Gives us time to fund two more rounds of 401ks and Roth IRAs.  Will start HSA then as well.  Our youngest is headed to trade school and should finish up about then.  Gives me time to hike the AT SOBO south from Maine.   Going to use vacation time to start working north from GA early 2019 for a few hundred miles. 
Then not sure presently where we go.  Hope to spend about half of what the 2M will yield so it can grow. Will probably find work if it dips below 2M for very long.

Accidentally went to page 1 of this thread and lookee! lookee! what I found!

Dude, at least make your wife promise to come online and tell us you got blown to kingdom come if you decide to keep working and don't make it thru your FMY (Four More Years) Syndrome...

That was said with much affection...

I'd typed up a nice long reply, but it didn't post.  Basically lifestyle creep and the necessity for health care are my main reasons for staying longer.  Most likely I'll be holding out for age 55.  I can probably trim off a few months with use of vacation time.

Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MadDuckT on June 23, 2021, 10:06:15 PM

Bateaux . Time> money . You have plenty of money . I know it’s hard but trust me, your time to go is now .  I just pulled the plug last month and it’s glorious. All the best! Trust the numbers . Carpe diem !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 24, 2021, 03:46:11 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 23, 2021, 06:55:21 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 23, 2021, 08:36:01 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 21, 2017, 01:17:18 PM

I'm probably working till about June 2019.  I want to say I retired at 50 and that's the last month to make the claim.   Gives us time to fund two more rounds of 401ks and Roth IRAs.  Will start HSA then as well.  Our youngest is headed to trade school and should finish up about then.  Gives me time to hike the AT SOBO south from Maine.   Going to use vacation time to start working north from GA early 2019 for a few hundred miles. 
Then not sure presently where we go.  Hope to spend about half of what the 2M will yield so it can grow. Will probably find work if it dips below 2M for very long.

Accidentally went to page 1 of this thread and lookee! lookee! what I found!

Dude, at least make your wife promise to come online and tell us you got blown to kingdom come if you decide to keep working and don't make it thru your FMY (Four More Years) Syndrome...

That was said with much affection...

I'd typed up a nice long reply, but it didn't post.  Basically lifestyle creep and the necessity for health care are my main reasons for staying longer.  Most likely I'll be holding out for age 55.  I can probably trim off a few months with use of vacation time.

You got to do what's right by you BUT having followed, conversed with you online and so on , Like the majority here I think that was a good warning shot against the bow and would walk away. But respect your decision. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 24, 2021, 11:10:33 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on June 23, 2021, 04:01:11 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 23, 2021, 12:12:02 PM

E.g. I will never forget the time I lost my job, not long out of school (and with a negative net worth b/c of student loans), just after my wife had been laid off, who was many months pregnant with my first kid.  It was pretty challenging moment for me as I wondered if I was failing my new family.  Out of the blue my folks sent me $2k (which prob equates to about $4k today).  My inheritance from them will likely be around $200k, and that $200k just wont matter to me at all, whereas that $2k I got from them was HUGE....

Similar story: I had practically no money when I started work and was hoping my student car would last for at least a few months until savings could build up. But it died completely soon after I started work - mind you, I had a 150 mile daily round trip to work. My dad sent me a check for $4000 and I was able to use that as a down payment on a car (13% APR no less).

Wow, I think we shared a life.  I had a couple year stretch I worked 3 hours away from my wife and new kid...I'd drive down Monday morning and back Friday night.  That was precisely the time I decided I needed to get FI as fast as possible....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 24, 2021, 11:35:40 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on June 24, 2021, 11:10:33 AM

That was precisely the time I decided I needed to get FI as fast as possible....

Wise man.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on June 24, 2021, 06:32:36 PM

I just looked at assisted living dementia facilities in VA with my mother. for $6K/mo for a couple, they take care of most everything in a fancypants brand new facility.  Umm....that's $1.8M in perpetuity.  Really, this place is swanky. $4M for a couple is WAYYYY more than enough.  Way more.  That $6K number included the wine club with 2 glasses per night, and meals with a chef that cooks for English royalty.  (I'm not saying the English actually have good taste in food, but still.)  $4M is mostly overkill.  It make DH and I feel pretty darn good at our $2.6M number not including SS. As long as we cover our current spending and college costs, we should be golden.  Coast FI is in our reach.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on June 24, 2021, 08:53:42 PM

Quote from: couponvan on June 24, 2021, 06:32:36 PM

I just looked at assisted living dementia facilities in VA with my mother. for $6K/mo for a couple, they take care of most everything in a fancypants brand new facility.  Umm....that's $1.8M in perpetuity.  Really, this place is swanky. $4M for a couple is WAYYYY more than enough.  Way more.  That $6K number included the wine club with 2 glasses per night, and meals with a chef that cooks for English royalty.  (I'm not saying the English actually have good taste in food, but still.)  $4M is mostly overkill.  It make DH and I feel pretty darn good at our $2.6M number not including SS. As long as we cover our current spending and college costs, we should be golden.  Coast FI is in our reach.

Wow, here in my HCOL area, $6000+ is common for a single person with dementia in a nice, but not awesome place.  $8000 for a single person in a private room at the swanky but depressing place that looks like an Italian Villa.    Having had to place both my mom and grandma in facilities, I've looked at a few.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on June 24, 2021, 09:43:51 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 24, 2021, 08:53:42 PM

Quote from: couponvan on June 24, 2021, 06:32:36 PM

I just looked at assisted living dementia facilities in VA with my mother. for $6K/mo for a couple, they take care of most everything in a fancypants brand new facility.  Umm....that's $1.8M in perpetuity.  Really, this place is swanky. $4M for a couple is WAYYYY more than enough.  Way more.  That $6K number included the wine club with 2 glasses per night, and meals with a chef that cooks for English royalty.  (I'm not saying the English actually have good taste in food, but still.)  $4M is mostly overkill.  It make DH and I feel pretty darn good at our $2.6M number not including SS. As long as we cover our current spending and college costs, we should be golden.  Coast FI is in our reach.

Wow, here in my HCOL area, $6000+ is common for a single person with dementia in a nice, but not awesome place.  $8000 for a single person in a private room at the swanky but depressing place that looks like an Italian Villa.    Having had to place both my mom and grandma in facilities, I've looked at a few.

Just heard about filial responsibility laws.......wtf!!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on June 25, 2021, 03:21:17 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on June 24, 2021, 09:43:51 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 24, 2021, 08:53:42 PM

Quote from: couponvan on June 24, 2021, 06:32:36 PM

I just looked at assisted living dementia facilities in VA with my mother. for $6K/mo for a couple, they take care of most everything in a fancypants brand new facility.  Umm....that's $1.8M in perpetuity.  Really, this place is swanky. $4M for a couple is WAYYYY more than enough.  Way more.  That $6K number included the wine club with 2 glasses per night, and meals with a chef that cooks for English royalty.  (I'm not saying the English actually have good taste in food, but still.)  $4M is mostly overkill.  It make DH and I feel pretty darn good at our $2.6M number not including SS. As long as we cover our current spending and college costs, we should be golden.  Coast FI is in our reach.

This is one of those things that I just think is really broken in our Country. While there are good ones out there they make a killing wiping out families wealth and the costs are excessive at best for something even decent. I did alot of work on them and was always surprised by how poorly people were treated or in most cases ignored. Really do your research its a sad time and as I say there seems to be a need for a new system.

Wow, here in my HCOL area, $6000+ is common for a single person with dementia in a nice, but not awesome place.  $8000 for a single person in a private room at the swanky but depressing place that looks like an Italian Villa.    Having had to place both my mom and grandma in facilities, I've looked at a few.

Just heard about filial responsibility laws.......wtf!!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 25, 2021, 10:26:12 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on June 24, 2021, 09:43:51 PM

Quote from: JoJoP on June 24, 2021, 08:53:42 PM

Quote from: couponvan on June 24, 2021, 06:32:36 PM

I just looked at assisted living dementia facilities in VA with my mother. for $6K/mo for a couple, they take care of most everything in a fancypants brand new facility.  Umm....that's $1.8M in perpetuity.  Really, this place is swanky. $4M for a couple is WAYYYY more than enough.  Way more.  That $6K number included the wine club with 2 glasses per night, and meals with a chef that cooks for English royalty.  (I'm not saying the English actually have good taste in food, but still.)  $4M is mostly overkill.  It make DH and I feel pretty darn good at our $2.6M number not including SS. As long as we cover our current spending and college costs, we should be golden.  Coast FI is in our reach.

Wow, here in my HCOL area, $6000+ is common for a single person with dementia in a nice, but not awesome place.  $8000 for a single person in a private room at the swanky but depressing place that looks like an Italian Villa.    Having had to place both my mom and grandma in facilities, I've looked at a few.

Just heard about filial responsibility laws.......wtf!!!

Had to look that up - Filial responsibility laws (filial support laws, filial piety laws) are laws in the United States that impose a duty, usually upon adult children, for the support of their impoverished parents or other relatives. ... Such laws may be enforced by governmental or private entities and may be at the state or national level.

Sorta makes sense though.  Fortunately not an issue for me, but I'd love to know if anyone knows anyone that has first hand experience...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 25, 2021, 02:14:40 PM

Not all states have filial responsibility requirements. 

I've been looking with my mom for a facility that she can live independently first and as needed, up her care.  This is not a memory care facility.  Outside of Boston, we're seeing on the order of about $5k for a 1 bedroom.  For assisted living (really just so many hours of care included), it's around $7k a month.  For full blown nursing home or memory care, $15k+ a month.  We're finding that all the local facilities are parts of a bigger umbrella company.  We have one 5 miles east of us and one 5 miles west.  The layouts are exactly the same.  Right down to the outside patio area with a walking trail that encircles the facility. 

Currently, my mom has stepped up getting help.  From her brother/sister in law, from insta cart, from a housekeeper.  She really would rather not go right now (I'm sure a lot of people see that), so has kicked into high gear the help to keep me off her back to get help or get out. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 25, 2021, 03:39:22 PM

Filial laws.. Precisely why I told DW to NOT encourage her (lots of less than positive adjectives could be inserted here) Mother to move from Colorado to Oregon where we live.

Oregon has filial laws, Colorado does not.. Plus she is 1100 miles away which is almost far enough!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 26, 2021, 07:14:44 AM

Eye-opening; I'll admit to not knowing that such a law existed.  And I see the state my parents live in (Ohio) is on the list of 30 states that apparently do have filial laws.  What a land mine and just when you're starting to see light at the end of the tunnel by getting kids mostly through school / graduate school.  Depressing....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 26, 2021, 09:33:39 AM

Quote from: arcturus on June 26, 2021, 07:14:44 AM

Eye-opening; I'll admit to not knowing that such a law existed.  And I see the state my parents live in (Ohio) is on the list of 30 states that apparently do have filial laws.  What a land mine and just when you're starting to see light at the end of the tunnel by getting kids mostly through school / graduate school.  Depressing....

Well the good news is that these laws get applied incredibly rarely.. Like I believe I found there is only one case in recent history after the recipient left the country and went to live in Greece (from memory here) and Medicaid or the facility was left holding the bag for lots of $$ worth of care. They sued the Son and the court decided he should pay the bill.

Like I said this is all a bit hazy in my brain, but it goes to show this is not a common thing to be forced to pay.

The problem of course is that as nursing home costs rise an seniors have less money then States might look at more creative ways to claw back $$ and if they have a filial law on the books it might look very tempting indeed if the senior has multi-millionaire children.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 26, 2021, 12:15:57 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 26, 2021, 09:33:39 AM

Quote from: arcturus on June 26, 2021, 07:14:44 AM

Eye-opening; I'll admit to not knowing that such a law existed.  And I see the state my parents live in (Ohio) is on the list of 30 states that apparently do have filial laws.  What a land mine and just when you're starting to see light at the end of the tunnel by getting kids mostly through school / graduate school.  Depressing....

Well the good news is that these laws get applied incredibly rarely.. Like I believe I found there is only one case in recent history after the recipient left the country and went to live in Greece (from memory here) and Medicaid or the facility was left holding the bag for lots of $$ worth of care. They sued the Son and the court decided he should pay the bill.

Like I said this is all a bit hazy in my brain, but it goes to show this is not a common thing to be forced to pay.

The problem of course is that as nursing home costs rise an seniors have less money then States might look at more creative ways to claw back $$ and if they have a filial law on the books it might look very tempting indeed if the senior has multi-millionaire children.

Thank you - that is somewhat reassuring!  Still surprises me that this is even possible without the child actually co-signing or taking some pro-active action to assume the liability. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 26, 2021, 01:35:55 PM

Oh its possible alright.. Its the law!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on June 27, 2021, 07:09:46 PM

How many folks here have been in this group from the start but just keep working because they may want to allow for lifestyle creep?  at least 1-2 years ago i thought i would stop working at some $ figure and assumed i would hit it in 2023-2025.

turns out i hit it much earlier, but i continue to work.  DW and i are at $5.8mm NW without the $1.5M in home equity.  Last year combined i think we hit $1.5MM in taxable income.  that won't happen again - that was at least $800K of RSU income, but still.

i think we spend $100K/year before taxes.  But, the "what ifs" haunt me.  what if 2000-2009 happens again?  what if the cost of health care sky rockets (we are 38 and 41 y/o with 2 kids)?

most people on this thread seem to be more MMM than bogleheads and i am afraid i fit into the latter.  that's why i assume i feel pressured to continue working. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 27, 2021, 07:28:59 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on June 27, 2021, 07:09:46 PM

How many folks here have been in this group from the start but just keep working because they may want to allow for lifestyle creep?  at least 1-2 years ago i thought i would stop working at some $ figure and assumed i would hit it in 2023-2025.

turns out i hit it much earlier, but i continue to work.  DW and i are at $5.8mm NW without the $1.5M in home equity.  Last year combined i think we hit $1.5MM in taxable income.  that won't happen again - that was at least $800K of RSU income, but still.

i think we spend $100K/year before taxes.  But, the "what ifs" haunt me.  what if 2000-2009 happens again?  what if the cost of health care sky rockets (we are 38 and 41 y/o with 2 kids)?

most people on this thread seem to be more MMM than bogleheads and i am afraid i fit into the latter.  that's why i assume i feel pressured to continue working.

Lol, in the old days we gave @Exflyboy so much shit for not pulling the trigger. @Bateaux still takes crap from us old timers regularly. Nobody gets to their deathbed wishing they'd worked more and/or spent less time with their loved ones. Do whatever you want, it's your life. Just don't expect a lot of support for your decision on a forum dedicated to the pursuit of FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 27, 2021, 07:44:21 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on June 27, 2021, 07:09:46 PM

How many folks here have been in this group from the start but just keep working because they may want to allow for lifestyle creep?  at least 1-2 years ago i thought i would stop working at some $ figure and assumed i would hit it in 2023-2025.

turns out i hit it much earlier, but i continue to work.  DW and i are at $5.8mm NW without the $1.5M in home equity.  Last year combined i think we hit $1.5MM in taxable income.  that won't happen again - that was at least $800K of RSU income, but still.

i think we spend $100K/year before taxes.  But, the "what ifs" haunt me.  what if 2000-2009 happens again?  what if the cost of health care sky rockets (we are 38 and 41 y/o with 2 kids)?

most people on this thread seem to be more MMM than bogleheads and i am afraid i fit into the latter.  that's why i assume i feel pressured to continue working.

Ok, what if 2000-2009 happens again.   With a $160,000 spend, you're at a 2.76% withdrawal rate PLUS you have 1.5M in home equity to draw on in a pinch.   Let's say the worldwide market drops in value 50% AND just keeps pace with inflation for years.    How many years before you run thru your stash?   $2,400,000 / 160,000 = 15 years.    That assumes you don't tap into your home equity to keep from drawing down your stash and you only cut your spending enough to cover the HELOC payments.   That HELOC could provide you 5 years before you had to touch your stash and that's assuming your home value takes a hit, too!

Short of a WWIII or Zombie apocalypse kind of catastrophe, this is a worst case scenario for way more than you actually spend now!

There are so many things you could do to cut your spending and therefore the draw on your home equity and stash, none of which include actually doing a bit of part time work during that time.

So, WTF do you care if the market drops and stagnates for awhile?    It's simply an irrational fear.

As for health care costs, the only reason health care costs are ludicrously high in the USA is because we the people allow ourselves to be thoroughly fleeced by the health care system.    That may well change.

If it doesn't, you could easily move to one of a host of wonderful countries where health care and other costs aren't expensive at all.   The savings on health care alone could cover plane tickets for your family to visit you or vice-versa, possibly multiple times a year, depending on the size of the family and the country you choose.

There are many options here, including medical tourism instead of moving to another country.   

The sad reality is that if you or your spouse's health (or both) get so bad that it would swamp your stash, you wouldn't be able to work and what little you would have added to it by continuing to work would be a drop in the bucket of that medical debt.

Again, these are irrational fears.


Real fears, and thus they have to be respected and dealt with, but they are still irrational fears at your wealth and spending level.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Josiecat22222 on June 27, 2021, 07:52:54 PM

 @wannabe-stache-- I hear you.  We are in the "and beyond" territory, but kept working for years as we went through the full iteration of the what ifs.  You have to work through your own process, but this thought is what finally got me to FIRE:

The money actually has no value in and of itself.  It represents choices and freedom.  The more you have, the more choices and freedom you have.  I can't tell you that 2008-9 isn't going to happen again. Or that healthcare isn't going to sky rocket again.  Or any other of a million scenarios that flash through your mind at 2am.  What I can tell you is that you will age regardless of how much money you have in the bank.  Your children will continue to grow and develop and hit milestones whether you are home to see it or in an office.  You can ALWAYS make more money.  You cannot make more time.  At a net worth in excess of 7 million dollars there are vanishingly few situations with a financial solution that you cannot handle.  You have a HUGE number of choices (to relocate, downsize your home, pay cash for gold tier health plans, etc).  The ability to make those choices equals freedom.  Live the life you choose to live.  You have enough money.

Best, JC23503

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on June 27, 2021, 08:33:16 PM

Quote from: Josiecat23503 on June 27, 2021, 07:52:54 PM

@wannabe-stache-- I hear you.  We are in the "and beyond" territory, but kept working for years as we went through the full iteration of the what ifs.  You have to work through your own process, but this thought is what finally got me to FIRE:

The money actually has no value in and of itself.  It represents choices and freedom.  The more you have, the more choices and freedom you have.  I can't tell you that 2008-9 isn't going to happen again. Or that healthcare isn't going to sky rocket again.  Or any other of a million scenarios that flash through your mind at 2am.  What I can tell you is that you will age regardless of how much money you have in the bank.  Your children will continue to grow and develop and hit milestones whether you are home to see it or in an office.  You can ALWAYS make more money.  You cannot make more time.  At a net worth in excess of 7 million dollars there are vanishingly few situations with a financial solution that you cannot handle.  You have a HUGE number of choices (to relocate, downsize your home, pay cash for gold tier health plans, etc).  The ability to make those choices equals freedom.  Live the life you choose to live.  You have enough money.

Best, JC23503

Thanks for the first thoughtful response to my post. Comments like yours are the ones that keep me coming back to MMM instead of going to bogleheads permanently. On that forum I’m fairly average and folks would recommend I work for another 10 years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on June 27, 2021, 09:56:28 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on June 27, 2021, 08:33:16 PM

Quote from: Josiecat23503 on June 27, 2021, 07:52:54 PM

@wannabe-stache-- I hear you.  We are in the "and beyond" territory, but kept working for years as we went through the full iteration of the what ifs.  You have to work through your own process, but this thought is what finally got me to FIRE:

The money actually has no value in and of itself.  It represents choices and freedom.  The more you have, the more choices and freedom you have.  I can't tell you that 2008-9 isn't going to happen again. Or that healthcare isn't going to sky rocket again.  Or any other of a million scenarios that flash through your mind at 2am.  What I can tell you is that you will age regardless of how much money you have in the bank.  Your children will continue to grow and develop and hit milestones whether you are home to see it or in an office.  You can ALWAYS make more money.  You cannot make more time.  At a net worth in excess of 7 million dollars there are vanishingly few situations with a financial solution that you cannot handle.  You have a HUGE number of choices (to relocate, downsize your home, pay cash for gold tier health plans, etc).  The ability to make those choices equals freedom.  Live the life you choose to live.  You have enough money.

Best, JC23503

Thanks for the first   3d  thoughtful response to my post. Comments like yours are the ones that keep me coming back to MMM instead of going to bogleheads permanently. On that forum I’m fairly average and folks would recommend I work for another 10 years.

Fixed that for you.   

Both Dicey and Swordguy gave measured, thoughtful, responses to your post. 

Swordguy went point-by-point to address your issues and then noted that you have "Real fears, and thus they have to be respected and dealt with, but they are still irrational fears at your wealth and spending level."

Errr... what more do you want?   

Unlike Bogleheads, here at MMM (especially old-timers) we understand your fears, we've had them ourselves, but we trust the math.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 27, 2021, 11:16:01 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on June 27, 2021, 09:56:28 PM

Both Dicey and Swordguy gave measured, thoughtful, responses to your post. 

Swordguy went point-by-point to address your issues and then noted that you have "Real fears, and thus they have to be respected and dealt with, but they are still irrational fears at your wealth and spending level."

Errr... what more do you want?   

Unlike Bogleheads, here at MMM (especially old-timers) we understand your fears, we've had them ourselves, but we trust the math.

Damn skippy we've had those fears!    We went thru some hedonic adaptation AND 2MY (Two More Years) Syndrome before we retired.   And it was STILL scary!

The fears we had were real.   It took us two years to work thru that no, really, we had God's plenty of money and a damn good plan and I've lost count of how many safety features in our plan -- it was a running joke from readers of my status reports that my hobby seemed to be manufacturing safety features for our retirement plan.    Then again, we have a mentally handicapped daughter who simply cannot provide for herself, so if we got it wrong, she was the one who would suffer, as would our son who would have to support her out of his own retirement savings.   

That's why I said your fears are real and have to be respected and dealt with.   And it will take time and effort on your part to do that.   I would check our net worth weekly or whenever the market moved a fair bit.   I got used to watching our net worth change up or down 30-50k in a day.   We had already been thru two crashes and never had the slightest inkling of a need to panic and sell at the bottom, so at least we had that going for us coming into the home stretch.   

I sat down and said, how will we deal with the market going down and staying down for a longish while?   

Answer?    Diversify into rental real estate and sharecropped farmland and also have things in diverse stock/bond holdings, i.e., index funds.   Let social security be additional gravy rather than an essential part of the plan.     

Answer?   Have a cash cushion for the first two years.

Answer?   Don't let ourselves splurge for at least two years.

Answer?   Have lots of optional fluff we could happily live without in our spending plans so we could drop our need to draw down the stash.

Answer?   Keep some skills up for a few years so I could get another job if need be.   Not really an option for my wife and her career.

Answer?   Keep our rentals properly maintained at all times so we would have statistically fewer hits on our stash while we were going thru bad times.   Plan for those expenses and attempt to front-load as many of them as possible before retirement.

Answer?   Keep our tenants happy by properly maintaining the property at all times and by treating them with respect and kindness.   

That's just a fraction of the things we did to harden our plan against the fickle finger of fate.

We didn't just "fear", we used that fear as a spotlight on any possible gaps in our planning.   We dealt with our fear.

If the response to fear is just being afraid, it doesn't go away, it tends to get bigger.    Drag it out into the light of an adaptable, resilient plan and use that plan to bludgeon it into a mere controlled concern.

At your spend level vs your stash size, you have a massive number of years to adjust and prepare yourself, even if you do have to go back to work.   You could afford to get a batchelor's and master's degree in an entirely new field if, for example, your prior occupation of, say, computer punch card puncher, went the way of the dodo.   You could even take a year off after college as a gap year. :)

Your SWR assuming your stash is in stocks and bonds is already a very low 2.76% at a $160,000 spend, which is higher than you say you are spending including taxes.    That's an extremely safe withdrawal rate.   Cutting your spending to $130,000, which including taxes is still probably more than you're planned $100,000 spend, and a full time minimum wage job between you and your spouse, would cut your SWR down to a bit below a 2% SWR from your current stash.   

That's why I say your fears are real but irrational.   

You've got this finance game won.    You just need to learn to live with it.

I hope this longer version of my original message is more useful to you.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 27, 2021, 11:25:44 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on June 27, 2021, 09:56:28 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on June 27, 2021, 08:33:16 PM

Quote from: Josiecat23503 on June 27, 2021, 07:52:54 PM

@wannabe-stache-- I hear you.  We are in the "and beyond" territory, but kept working for years as we went through the full iteration of the what ifs.  You have to work through your own process, but this thought is what finally got me to FIRE:

The money actually has no value in and of itself.  It represents choices and freedom.  The more you have, the more choices and freedom you have.  I can't tell you that 2008-9 isn't going to happen again. Or that healthcare isn't going to sky rocket again.  Or any other of a million scenarios that flash through your mind at 2am.  What I can tell you is that you will age regardless of how much money you have in the bank.  Your children will continue to grow and develop and hit milestones whether you are home to see it or in an office.  You can ALWAYS make more money.  You cannot make more time.  At a net worth in excess of 7 million dollars there are vanishingly few situations with a financial solution that you cannot handle.  You have a HUGE number of choices (to relocate, downsize your home, pay cash for gold tier health plans, etc).  The ability to make those choices equals freedom.  Live the life you choose to live.  You have enough money.

Best, JC23503

Thanks for the first   3d  thoughtful response to my post. Comments like yours are the ones that keep me coming back to MMM instead of going to bogleheads permanently. On that forum I’m fairly average and folks would recommend I work for another 10 years.

Fixed that for you.   

Both Dicey and Swordguy gave measured, thoughtful, responses to your post. 

Swordguy went point-by-point to address your issues and then noted that you have "Real fears, and thus they have to be respected and dealt with, but they are still irrational fears at your wealth and spending level."

Errr... what more do you want?   

Unlike Bogleheads, here at MMM (especially old-timers) we understand your fears, we've had them ourselves, but we trust the math.

Thanks @markbike528CBX, I also batsignalled two experts for their help.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 27, 2021, 11:54:20 PM

@wannabe-stache

At the risk of sounding like a  hypocrite, it's time for you to pull.  I'm not in your league.  Add all our liquid (almost 3M) and real estate equity (400 K) together and we're not halfway where you are.  Get out with your youth.  I'll be 53 soon, my youth is shot.  Working to 55 for me doesn't mean a whole lot.  That lost decade of my 40s is gone.  I'm in physical decline now due to age.  A lot of the adventures I could have done are no longer optional.  Now my goal is to lock in a reasonable health care plan with my employer.  That comes at 55 and not a day sooner.  If I were Canadian, I'd be gone right now.  I know my wife and I will both require expensive health care going forward.  We will likely require extended end of life care when the time comes.  That is the danger of working too long.  These things become highly predictable.  You are young enough still that such may be unknown.  You've got a huge stack of dollars.  Go enjoy it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 28, 2021, 02:38:56 PM

Ahh the trials of having too much money..:)

Like @Bateaux I too am a huge hypocrite. I.e my WR was 0.69% last year. I have two rentals that I don't need but hate being in the Landlord business. Last week I was replacing my roof in 90F blazing Sun because I could do it all for $3500 vs $16,000 by contracting it out.

I mean. I have $2.9M in savings, no mortgage, small pensions and can live on $35k per year if we had to!

But honestly.. working? There just comes a point when you just don't have to. It took me a long time actually pull the plug though, hence I got thoroughly ribbed on this forum as a result.. And rightly so..:)

Oh.. I am "considering" wandering down to the Subaru dealership and handing over a check for a brand new car... The anxiety level is high with this idea!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on June 28, 2021, 03:21:54 PM

One of the main reasons I'm very quiet on this thread is that I clearly shouldn't be working but somehow still am (albeit part time these days, and definitely on a glide path out - promise!)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on June 28, 2021, 05:41:04 PM

My original numbers were $2.0M and a paid off house in a LCOL area ($500K max) given our spending without children.  DH just got a package at work, and while we've only been processing things for 11 days, our investment assets went up $25K, and the cash will continue to come in for another 2 years to cover our current spending.  Health care is the big ? for most of us.  The weird thing about medicare is it seems to be skewed to INCOME vs ASSETS.  So as long as you don't need a huge income with those huge assets, you are eligible for subsidies.  I don't see that going away any time soon.  That being said, we're on the + side of 50, so our time to wait for medicare age-benefit health care is more limited.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 28, 2021, 06:48:52 PM

Quote from: couponvan on June 28, 2021, 05:41:04 PM

My original numbers were $2.0M and a paid off house in a LCOL area ($500K max) given our spending without children.  DH just got a package at work, and while we've only been processing things for 11 days, our investment assets went up $25K, and the cash will continue to come in for another 2 years to cover our current spending.  Health care is the big ? for most of us.  The weird thing about medicare is it seems to be skewed to INCOME vs ASSETS.  So as long as you don't need a huge income with those huge assets, you are eligible for subsidies.  I don't see that going away any time soon.  That being said, we're on the + side of 50, so our time to wait for medicare age-benefit health care is more limited.

Set your "income" to to around $33k and you can get a Bronze plan for roughly free.. Or a Silver plan for a little more $$ each month and have lower deductibles.

Note if you live mainly on after tax sale of assets held > 1 year, then money you get will be less than Income and you'll pay $zero fed income tax..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 29, 2021, 08:44:38 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 28, 2021, 06:48:52 PM

Quote from: couponvan on June 28, 2021, 05:41:04 PM

My original numbers were $2.0M and a paid off house in a LCOL area ($500K max) given our spending without children.  DH just got a package at work, and while we've only been processing things for 11 days, our investment assets went up $25K, and the cash will continue to come in for another 2 years to cover our current spending.  Health care is the big ? for most of us.  The weird thing about medicare is it seems to be skewed to INCOME vs ASSETS.  So as long as you don't need a huge income with those huge assets, you are eligible for subsidies.  I don't see that going away any time soon.  That being said, we're on the + side of 50, so our time to wait for medicare age-benefit health care is more limited.

Set your "income" to to around $33k and you can get a Bronze plan for roughly free.. Or a Silver plan for a little more $$ each month and have lower deductibles.

Note if you live mainly on after tax sale of assets held > 1 year, then money you get will be less than Income and you'll pay $zero fed income tax..:)

You know - I got to wondering.  Just what percentage of people in the US make about $33,000. (or less)

https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/ (https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/)

If I read the stuff in the link right, it's about a quarter of the entire US population.  I guess that means a lot of them could get Obamacare.  I'll bet it won't take long for employers to figure that out and drop health care.  It ain't going away as it serves a real need. 

Wikipedia seems to roughly match it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States)

I see faint handwriting on the wall that this is going to lead to some form of National Healthcare.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 29, 2021, 09:23:09 AM

Yup.. And in 2022 the ACA will be improved significantly whereby you can go to any ER in the country and never be charged more than your out of network rates!

Of course as retirees with appreciated assets then $33k of income can mean significantly less than actual money available to spend.

What was that about "only the little people pay taxes"..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 29, 2021, 09:33:21 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on June 27, 2021, 07:09:46 PM

How many folks here have been in this group from the start but just keep working because they may want to allow for lifestyle creep?  at least 1-2 years ago i thought i would stop working at some $ figure and assumed i would hit it in 2023-2025.

turns out i hit it much earlier, but i continue to work.  DW and i are at $5.8mm NW without the $1.5M in home equity.  Last year combined i think we hit $1.5MM in taxable income.  that won't happen again - that was at least $800K of RSU income, but still.

i think we spend $100K/year before taxes.  But, the "what ifs" haunt me.  what if 2000-2009 happens again?  what if the cost of health care sky rockets (we are 38 and 41 y/o with 2 kids)?

most people on this thread seem to be more MMM than bogleheads and i am afraid i fit into the latter.  that's why i assume i feel pressured to continue working.

@wannabe-stache, far be it from me to advise you from a personal perspective, as my situation is not comparable to yours.  However, if it is a fear of a black swan event or a massive market correction that has you worried, you can look at Buffer ETFs to help mitigate that risk.  Yes, they do charge fees, but they will help limit your downside risk in exchange for a cap on your upside.  For example, the one I'm looking at (Innovator S&P 500 Power Buffer ETF) is a 1 year ETF that pays you the market return on the S&P 500 for 12 months, but caps it at 7.77% and in exchange for that you get protection against the first 15% (percentage points) of negative return in the S&P500 over that period.  Certainly not a strategy for 100% of your investable assets, but it might help you sleep better at night if you had a portion allocated to something like this.   Perhaps you have a financial advisor and are already aware of this -- if so -- apologies for the oxygen consumed.

On the personal side, the only advise this novice will offer is to revisit what your exit strategy was when your FIRE journey began and ask yourself if you have achieved what your goals were at that time.  I will admit this is easier said than done, because "goal creep" enters into the picture.  But worth reflecting on what your plan was 3-4 years ago and then how you presently compare to that profile. 

We would probably all be well-served to do that from time to time.  My problem is that I change my goals and then I don't keep a memory of what they were 2 years ago, etc.

My 2 cents, probably worth the price paid. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2KidFIRE on June 29, 2021, 09:46:24 AM

If it helps @wannabe-stache , my wife and I are currently at ~$3.5M in assets (excluding home equity), similar age as you and your wife, 2 kids, very similar spending level, and we're planning to retire at the end of the year!  It's hard to get your head in the right place, but with your assets and spending I think you've got it no problem :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on June 29, 2021, 01:41:39 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 29, 2021, 08:44:38 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 28, 2021, 06:48:52 PM

Quote from: couponvan on June 28, 2021, 05:41:04 PM

My original numbers were $2.0M and a paid off house in a LCOL area ($500K max) given our spending without children.  DH just got a package at work, and while we've only been processing things for 11 days, our investment assets went up $25K, and the cash will continue to come in for another 2 years to cover our current spending.  Health care is the big ? for most of us.  The weird thing about medicare is it seems to be skewed to INCOME vs ASSETS.  So as long as you don't need a huge income with those huge assets, you are eligible for subsidies.  I don't see that going away any time soon.  That being said, we're on the + side of 50, so our time to wait for medicare age-benefit health care is more limited.

Set your "income" to to around $33k and you can get a Bronze plan for roughly free.. Or a Silver plan for a little more $$ each month and have lower deductibles.

Note if you live mainly on after tax sale of assets held > 1 year, then money you get will be less than Income and you'll pay $zero fed income tax..:)

You know - I got to wondering.  Just what percentage of people in the US make about $33,000. (or less)

https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/ (https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/)

If I read the stuff in the link right, it's about a quarter of the entire US population.  I guess that means a lot of them could get Obamacare.  I'll bet it won't take long for employers to figure that out and drop health care.  It ain't going away as it serves a real need. 

Wikipedia seems to roughly match it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States)

I see faint handwriting on the wall that this is going to lead to some form of National Healthcare.

I believe that employers with >50 employees must provide health insurance or face penalties.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on June 29, 2021, 02:52:33 PM

Our household NW ended the day at $2.999m. Couldn’t quite break that $3m for the first time!

And yet I am still working. I am definitely not mustachian.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 30, 2021, 08:28:39 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on June 29, 2021, 09:46:24 AM

If it helps @wannabe-stache , my wife and I are currently at ~$3.5M in assets (excluding home equity), similar age as you and your wife, 2 kids, very similar spending level, and we're planning to retire at the end of the year!  It's hard to get your head in the right place, but with your assets and spending I think you've got it no problem :)

Hey, how did you get in my head?

Same assets....2 kids, but they're both in their 20s and still living at home and both with jobs.  Although I suspect I'm older (64).  At 51 times spending, I know mathematically, I (and DW) could easily quit.  We're both from blue collar, work hard, pay our own ways through college backgrounds.  So it doesn't "feel" right to stop working where I could keep going.  DW will probably drive our end, which I suspect will be end of this year/start of next year. 

I've mentioned in the DIY thread how I did some repair on my 20 year old chainsaw to keep it going.  Well, something else went wrong and I realized that this saw is like an old 2 cycle motorcycle.  Use for 20 minutes, then fix it for an hour.  I was given the OK on Father's day to buy a new chainsaw.  I'm going to do that today.  Getting $475 for my tradeline sales this month pushed me over the edge (the saw is about $650).  I'll retire the old saw, pull the guide and chain for continued use and perhaps either craigslist it or harvest parts in the future.  I can't believe how much attention and time I've put into this stupid saw. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 30, 2021, 09:24:28 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 30, 2021, 08:28:39 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on June 29, 2021, 09:46:24 AM

If it helps @wannabe-stache , my wife and I are currently at ~$3.5M in assets (excluding home equity), similar age as you and your wife, 2 kids, very similar spending level, and we're planning to retire at the end of the year!  It's hard to get your head in the right place, but with your assets and spending I think you've got it no problem :)

Hey, how did you get in my head?

Same assets....2 kids, but they're both in their 20s and still living at home and both with jobs.  Although I suspect I'm older (64).  At 51 times spending, I know mathematically, I (and DW) could easily quit.  We're both from blue collar, work hard, pay our own ways through college backgrounds.  So it doesn't "feel" right to stop working where I could keep going.  DW will probably drive our end, which I suspect will be end of this year/start of next year. 

I've mentioned in the DIY thread how I did some repair on my 20 year old chainsaw to keep it going.  Well, something else went wrong and I realized that this saw is like an old 2 cycle motorcycle.  Use for 20 minutes, then fix it for an hour.  I was given the OK on Father's day to buy a new chainsaw.  I'm going to do that today.  Getting $475 for my tradeline sales this month pushed me over the edge (the saw is about $650).  I'll retire the old saw, pull the guide and chain for continued use and perhaps either craigslist it or harvest parts in the future.  I can't believe how much attention and time I've put into this stupid saw.

Wow, I'm way too spendy to be on this site anymore!  I just don't see the point in not spending if my NW keeps going up every year no matter what I seem to spend.  I don't really care about retirement and I like trying new things.    I can't wait to get back to travel though, starting in August!  I managed to spend $80k on travel in 2019, so that gave me a lot of wiggle room in 2020 to do things other than travel.  I am very thankful for my earlier Mustachianism that got me here, but I'm also not going to disappoint that 20-something yo guy that gave me the go-ahead to spend more once I hit FI :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on June 30, 2021, 10:35:14 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on June 28, 2021, 03:21:54 PM

One of the main reasons I'm very quiet on this thread is that I clearly shouldn't be working but somehow still am (albeit part time these days, and definitely on a glide path out - promise!)

Every day, I will experience three different thoughts: retire now, retire next year, or retire some years later. A decision to retire is quite difficult to make, particularly if there is no way to come back or take on any job ever.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 30, 2021, 12:46:44 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 30, 2021, 10:35:14 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on June 28, 2021, 03:21:54 PM

One of the main reasons I'm very quiet on this thread is that I clearly shouldn't be working but somehow still am (albeit part time these days, and definitely on a glide path out - promise!)

Every day, I will experience three different thoughts: retire now, retire next year, or retire some years later. A decision to retire is quite difficult to make, particularly if there is no way to come back or take on any job ever.

About every week the thought crosses my head, "Should I go back to work?"
Immediately after the following thought occurs, "Nah!"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Josiecat22222 on June 30, 2021, 04:42:33 PM

I'm with @pecunia.  Once separated from work, there is NO WAY I'd go back. 

Even if there's a market crash.

I'd adjust my spending if necessary, but no amount of paid work can feel as good as owning my time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on June 30, 2021, 05:49:55 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 30, 2021, 09:24:28 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 30, 2021, 08:28:39 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on June 29, 2021, 09:46:24 AM

If it helps @wannabe-stache , my wife and I are currently at ~$3.5M in assets (excluding home equity), similar age as you and your wife, 2 kids, very similar spending level, and we're planning to retire at the end of the year!  It's hard to get your head in the right place, but with your assets and spending I think you've got it no problem :)

Hey, how did you get in my head?

Same assets....2 kids, but they're both in their 20s and still living at home and both with jobs.  Although I suspect I'm older (64).  At 51 times spending, I know mathematically, I (and DW) could easily quit.  We're both from blue collar, work hard, pay our own ways through college backgrounds.  So it doesn't "feel" right to stop working where I could keep going.  DW will probably drive our end, which I suspect will be end of this year/start of next year. 

I've mentioned in the DIY thread how I did some repair on my 20 year old chainsaw to keep it going.  Well, something else went wrong and I realized that this saw is like an old 2 cycle motorcycle.  Use for 20 minutes, then fix it for an hour.  I was given the OK on Father's day to buy a new chainsaw.  I'm going to do that today.  Getting $475 for my tradeline sales this month pushed me over the edge (the saw is about $650).  I'll retire the old saw, pull the guide and chain for continued use and perhaps either craigslist it or harvest parts in the future.  I can't believe how much attention and time I've put into this stupid saw.

Wow, I'm way too spendy to be on this site anymore!  I just don't see the point in not spending if my NW keeps going up every year no matter what I seem to spend.  I don't really care about retirement and I like trying new things.    I can't wait to get back to travel though, starting in August!  I managed to spend $80k on travel in 2019, so that gave me a lot of wiggle room in 2020 to do things other than travel.  I am very thankful for my earlier Mustachianism that got me here, but I'm also not going to disappoint that 20-something yo guy that gave me the go-ahead to spend more once I hit FI :)

$80k of travel in one year.....I really want to know what you did. Please tell, I won't judge!   One it's a boatload on travel (some here would say that amount would be a boatload if that was your entire spending), two I would think a boatload of travel would take aot of time and therefore you must get a lot of time off if still working, three it's a boatload of travel spend. 

Must have been an awesome year which in hindsight was good timing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on June 30, 2021, 05:58:04 PM

Quote from: Josiecat23503 on June 30, 2021, 04:42:33 PM

I'm with @pecunia.  Once separated from work, there is NO WAY I'd go back. 

Even if there's a market crash.

I'd adjust my spending if necessary, but no amount of paid work can feel as good as owning my time.

I don't know where my line is for going back to work.  Mainly because I am not really employable.....I mean when managers are hiring and ask "What do you envision working for us?" They tend not to like hearing "Well, I plan to do what I want, when I want and expect to have flexible hours and a lot of time off!"

Besides, if markets get to a point that I "Have" to go go back to work there are probably far greater issues at large and employment options will likely be scarce.   Jobs are like credit....easy to get when you don't need one, hard to get when you do. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 30, 2021, 06:23:37 PM

The recent stock and real estate upsurge have lifted us over the $3M threshold.   :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on June 30, 2021, 06:24:40 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 30, 2021, 06:23:37 PM

The recent stock and real estate upsurge have lifted us over the $3M threshold.   :)

Still 3k shy of $3m, what a tease.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on June 30, 2021, 06:28:27 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 30, 2021, 06:23:37 PM

The recent stock and real estate upsurge have lifted us over the $3M threshold.   :)

Nice! Congratulations

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 30, 2021, 09:29:18 PM

Quote from: Josiecat23503 on June 30, 2021, 04:42:33 PM

I'm with @pecunia.  Once separated from work, there is NO WAY I'd go back. 

Even if there's a market crash.

I'd adjust my spending if necessary, but no amount of paid work can feel as good as owning my time.

I'm racing to the endpoint.   Once it's done.  It's done.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 30, 2021, 10:21:23 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on June 30, 2021, 05:49:55 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 30, 2021, 09:24:28 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 30, 2021, 08:28:39 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on June 29, 2021, 09:46:24 AM

If it helps @wannabe-stache , my wife and I are currently at ~$3.5M in assets (excluding home equity), similar age as you and your wife, 2 kids, very similar spending level, and we're planning to retire at the end of the year!  It's hard to get your head in the right place, but with your assets and spending I think you've got it no problem :)

Hey, how did you get in my head?

Same assets....2 kids, but they're both in their 20s and still living at home and both with jobs.  Although I suspect I'm older (64).  At 51 times spending, I know mathematically, I (and DW) could easily quit.  We're both from blue collar, work hard, pay our own ways through college backgrounds.  So it doesn't "feel" right to stop working where I could keep going.  DW will probably drive our end, which I suspect will be end of this year/start of next year. 

I've mentioned in the DIY thread how I did some repair on my 20 year old chainsaw to keep it going.  Well, something else went wrong and I realized that this saw is like an old 2 cycle motorcycle.  Use for 20 minutes, then fix it for an hour.  I was given the OK on Father's day to buy a new chainsaw.  I'm going to do that today.  Getting $475 for my tradeline sales this month pushed me over the edge (the saw is about $650).  I'll retire the old saw, pull the guide and chain for continued use and perhaps either craigslist it or harvest parts in the future.  I can't believe how much attention and time I've put into this stupid saw.

Wow, I'm way too spendy to be on this site anymore!  I just don't see the point in not spending if my NW keeps going up every year no matter what I seem to spend.  I don't really care about retirement and I like trying new things.    I can't wait to get back to travel though, starting in August!  I managed to spend $80k on travel in 2019, so that gave me a lot of wiggle room in 2020 to do things other than travel.  I am very thankful for my earlier Mustachianism that got me here, but I'm also not going to disappoint that 20-something yo guy that gave me the go-ahead to spend more once I hit FI :)

$80k of travel in one year.....I really want to know what you did. Please tell, I won't judge!   One it's a boatload on travel (some here would say that amount would be a boatload if that was your entire spending), two I would think a boatload of travel would take aot of time and therefore you must get a lot of time off if still working, three it's a boatload of travel spend. 

Must have been an awesome year which in hindsight was good timing.

@tooqk4u22 It's in my journal, mainly having an apartment for a year in Paris and flying business class back and forth a lot.  Did extra personal travel on top.  The money didn't all come out of my pocket, some was covered by the company, but I just as easily could have paid it all and would not have changed my current circumstances materially.  The main take away for me is that I don't think I could ever spend more than that if I tried, it was exhausting.  I don't even think I could keep it up for two years in a row.  So all of these people with 2 and 3M who worry about running out of money confuse me.  Have they ever even really tried to spend it, I wonder?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on June 30, 2021, 10:36:32 PM

Time for a new signature @EscapeVelocity2020

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 30, 2021, 10:45:54 PM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on June 30, 2021, 10:36:32 PM

Time for a new signature @EscapeVelocity2020

I personally like the irony of my signature, but yeah, the transition to ER part seems to have stalled out...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on July 01, 2021, 02:48:38 AM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$

Got a bit of hit in June mainly due gold price going down as well as crypto's.

753 days to Fire.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 01, 2021, 04:17:43 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on June 30, 2021, 06:24:40 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 30, 2021, 06:23:37 PM

The recent stock and real estate upsurge have lifted us over the $3M threshold.   :)

Still 3k shy of $3m, what a tease.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd almost be tempted to sell something.  But that's only a day if things increase a partial percent.

I think we'll see 3M by years end.  About 75K to go, 2 percent or so.  May 15, 2023 is the date.  I can't imagine not being able to afford it unless a depression hits.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 01, 2021, 06:22:22 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 01, 2021, 04:17:43 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on June 30, 2021, 06:24:40 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 30, 2021, 06:23:37 PM

The recent stock and real estate upsurge have lifted us over the $3M threshold.   :)

Still 3k shy of $3m, what a tease.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd almost be tempted to sell something.  But that's only a day if things increase a partial percent.

I think we'll see 3M by years end.  About 75K to go, 2 percent or so.  May 15, 2023 is the date.  I can't imagine not being able to afford it unless a depression hits.

I'm still looking up at both of you - NW at $2.57, home equity $0.41 (assuming 83% of Zillow zestimate) and investments at $2.16.  Goal is $2.3M invested and NW at $2.75 by EOY, which will both be a stretch.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 01, 2021, 06:30:49 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on July 01, 2021, 02:48:38 AM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$

Got a bit of hit in June mainly due gold price going down as well as crypto's.

753 days to Fire.

Finntastic - $750K in cash is about 15x what I have in cash....is this a statement about where you think the market is headed? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 01, 2021, 08:05:23 AM

I haven't done this in a while but I finally updated my numbers: we just topped $6M - and my wife is still working so we have some runway left :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BigEasyStache on July 01, 2021, 08:23:52 AM

Been lurking for years, don't post much.  Figured I'd officially join this group.

TNW = $3,237,018 (401k's, Home we live in, taxable investments)

NW w/o Home = $2,862,020

Here's the progress which includes house.

Year                NW
1997           $126,941.00
1998         $216,948.00
1999    $225,527.00
2000         $240,312.00
2001    $325,434.00
2002    $315,853.00
2003    $377,841.00
2004    $447,961.00
2005    $527,869.00
2006    $771,215.00
2007    $863,363.00
2008    $781,879.00
2009    $902,904.00
2010    $1,055,153.00
2011    $1,091,337.00
2012    $1,208,754.00
2013    $1,406,671.00
2014    $1,558,381.00
2015    $1,652,140.00
2016    $1,766,326.00
2017    $1,943,798.00
2018    $1,996,384.00
2019    $2,349,396.00
As of Dec. 31th, 2020   $2,914,969.00
Present Date   $3,205,630.00

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 01, 2021, 09:16:27 AM

Woot woot, we’ve breach $3M as of today! Come a long way from when I had $200 to my name and student loan debt out of college in 1996 :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 01, 2021, 09:19:49 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 01, 2021, 06:30:49 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on July 01, 2021, 02:48:38 AM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$

Got a bit of hit in June mainly due gold price going down as well as crypto's.

753 days to Fire.

Finntastic - $750K in cash is about 15x what I have in cash....is this a statement about where you think the market is headed?

We are sitting on $150k cash but we are dollar cost averaging $5k a month into the after-tax brokerage account. Also going to to take $50k to spruce up our house.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on July 01, 2021, 10:00:00 AM

We are now consistently in the $5Ms (4th month in a row). I was thinking it was a blip, but it looks like it's here to stay for at least a while. We are selling our vacation house next week (factored in taxes & closing costs, etc). Our primary residence has now gone crazy high. Zillow says it's potentially at the $4M mark, but we are using $3.5M.

Our breakdown is:
$2.425M - investments/cash/savings
$460k - expected cash after vacation house sales
$2.8M - equity in primary residence

239 days until FIRE. Our goal is a paid off house (I know, I know, but it's a significant part of our FIRE plan & just what we're comfortable with) before I FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 01, 2021, 10:08:47 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 30, 2021, 12:46:44 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on June 30, 2021, 10:35:14 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on June 28, 2021, 03:21:54 PM

One of the main reasons I'm very quiet on this thread is that I clearly shouldn't be working but somehow still am (albeit part time these days, and definitely on a glide path out - promise!)

Every day, I will experience three different thoughts: retire now, retire next year, or retire some years later. A decision to retire is quite difficult to make, particularly if there is no way to come back or take on any job ever.

About every week once a year the thought crosses my head, "Should I go back to work?"
Immediately after the following thought occurs, "Nah!"

Fixed that to speak for myself. Wish I could make that thought stop. Come to think of it, because of the pandemic, it's been over a year, so maybe I'm getting permanently over it.

Pull.The.Plug!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 01, 2021, 11:19:31 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 01, 2021, 09:16:27 AM

Woot woot, we’ve breach $3M as of today! Come a long way from when I had $200 to my name and student loan debt out of college in 1996 :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great job!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 01, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on July 01, 2021, 10:00:00 AM

Our breakdown is:
$2.425M - investments/cash/savings
$460k - expected cash after vacation house sales
$2.8M - equity in primary residence

239 days until FIRE. Our goal is a paid off house (I know, I know, but it's a significant part of our FIRE plan & just what we're comfortable with) before I FIRE.

I'm assuming you're in an area with very high housing costs. 

Because if you are, do you realize that if you sold that house and moved to someplace that homes are more affordable, you could buy a house for cash AND add 2+ million in cash to your stash?

You could be retired the day your home sale closing happens.    And this is the real estate market to make that happen!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 01, 2021, 12:13:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 01, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on July 01, 2021, 10:00:00 AM

Our breakdown is:
$2.425M - investments/cash/savings
$460k - expected cash after vacation house sales
$2.8M - equity in primary residence

239 days until FIRE. Our goal is a paid off house (I know, I know, but it's a significant part of our FIRE plan & just what we're comfortable with) before I FIRE.

I'm assuming you're in an area with very high housing costs. 

Because if you are, do you realize that if you sold that house and moved to someplace that homes are more affordable, you could buy a house for cash AND add 2+ million in cash to your stash?

You could be retired the day your home sale closing happens.    And this is the real estate market to make that happen!

Yeah, I'm sure MBM knows that. I'm in the same general area, but in a "less expensive" suburb, lol. The thing is that our lives are here, as are our families and the community ties we have created.  Sure, we can move and declare ourselves "winners", but money is only one part of a successful post-FIRE life. I wonder how many folks who shout, "Move!" live in areas where their friends and family are nearby. It makes a difference. If you've always lived in a place,  it's easy to underestimate the value of your connectedness and realize how challenging it can be to cultivate community in a new place. Plus, the Bay Area, with all its craziness, is still a freaking awesome place.

PS - Not singling you out in particular, @SwordGuy, just responding to the general sentiment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 01, 2021, 12:34:32 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 01, 2021, 12:13:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 01, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on July 01, 2021, 10:00:00 AM

Our breakdown is:
$2.425M - investments/cash/savings
$460k - expected cash after vacation house sales
$2.8M - equity in primary residence

239 days until FIRE. Our goal is a paid off house (I know, I know, but it's a significant part of our FIRE plan & just what we're comfortable with) before I FIRE.

I'm assuming you're in an area with very high housing costs. 

Because if you are, do you realize that if you sold that house and moved to someplace that homes are more affordable, you could buy a house for cash AND add 2+ million in cash to your stash?

You could be retired the day your home sale closing happens.    And this is the real estate market to make that happen!

Yeah, I'm sure MBM knows that. I'm in the same general area, but in a "less expensive" suburb, lol. The thing is that our lives are here, as are our families and the community ties we have created.  Sure, we can move and declare ourselves "winners", but money is only one part of a successful post-FIRE life. I wonder how many folks who shout, "Move!" live in areas where their friends and family are nearby. It makes a difference. If you've always lived in a place,  it's easy to underestimate the value of your connectedness and realize how challenging it can be to cultivate community in a new place. Plus, the Bay Area, with all its craziness, is still a freaking awesome place.

PS - Not singling you out in particular, @SwordGuy, just responding to the general sentiment.

I quite agree!   

But it's our job as forum members to make the options that people have explicit so that they get properly considered.    The poster probably knows it.   But it doesn't hurt to mention it and it might actually help.    I'll grant that 239 days isn't all that long so, what the heck, don't bother moving.   But others who are lurking may have a lot longer to wait and, hey, time is fleeting...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 01, 2021, 12:48:52 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 01, 2021, 12:34:32 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 01, 2021, 12:13:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 01, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on July 01, 2021, 10:00:00 AM

Our breakdown is:
$2.425M - investments/cash/savings
$460k - expected cash after vacation house sales
$2.8M - equity in primary residence

239 days until FIRE. Our goal is a paid off house (I know, I know, but it's a significant part of our FIRE plan & just what we're comfortable with) before I FIRE.

I'm assuming you're in an area with very high housing costs. 

Because if you are, do you realize that if you sold that house and moved to someplace that homes are more affordable, you could buy a house for cash AND add 2+ million in cash to your stash?

You could be retired the day your home sale closing happens.    And this is the real estate market to make that happen!

Yeah, I'm sure MBM knows that. I'm in the same general area, but in a "less expensive" suburb, lol. The thing is that our lives are here, as are our families and the community ties we have created.  Sure, we can move and declare ourselves "winners", but money is only one part of a successful post-FIRE life. I wonder how many folks who shout, "Move!" live in areas where their friends and family are nearby. It makes a difference. If you've always lived in a place,  it's easy to underestimate the value of your connectedness and realize how challenging it can be to cultivate community in a new place. Plus, the Bay Area, with all its craziness, is still a freaking awesome place.

PS - Not singling you out in particular, @SwordGuy, just responding to the general sentiment.

I quite agree!   

But it's our job as forum members to make the options that people have explicit so that they get properly considered.    The poster probably knows it.   But it doesn't hurt to mention it and it might actually help.    I'll grant that 239 days isn't all that long so, what the heck, don't bother moving.   But others who are lurking may have a lot longer to wait and, hey, time is fleeting...

Lol, speaking of such, tell that to our good friend, @Bateaux! @MaybeBabyMustache has been a member long enough to know exactly what we're talking about. The same thing happens in any discussion of housing costs. [Some] People in less expensive areas act like folks in HCOLAs are just stupid not to move, which is the source of my cranky get-off-my-lawn irritation. Of course, I live in drought-prone CA, so I have no lawn, lol.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 01, 2021, 01:19:43 PM

We started tracking net worth when we found MMM in 2012.   2013 and 2014 are approximations 'cause I lost that excel file. :( 
2016 included an inheritance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on July 01, 2021, 01:38:01 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 30, 2021, 10:21:23 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on June 30, 2021, 05:49:55 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 30, 2021, 09:24:28 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 30, 2021, 08:28:39 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on June 29, 2021, 09:46:24 AM

If it helps @wannabe-stache , my wife and I are currently at ~$3.5M in assets (excluding home equity), similar age as you and your wife, 2 kids, very similar spending level, and we're planning to retire at the end of the year!  It's hard to get your head in the right place, but with your assets and spending I think you've got it no problem :)

Hey, how did you get in my head?

Same assets....2 kids, but they're both in their 20s and still living at home and both with jobs.  Although I suspect I'm older (64).  At 51 times spending, I know mathematically, I (and DW) could easily quit.  We're both from blue collar, work hard, pay our own ways through college backgrounds.  So it doesn't "feel" right to stop working where I could keep going.  DW will probably drive our end, which I suspect will be end of this year/start of next year. 

I've mentioned in the DIY thread how I did some repair on my 20 year old chainsaw to keep it going.  Well, something else went wrong and I realized that this saw is like an old 2 cycle motorcycle.  Use for 20 minutes, then fix it for an hour.  I was given the OK on Father's day to buy a new chainsaw.  I'm going to do that today.  Getting $475 for my tradeline sales this month pushed me over the edge (the saw is about $650).  I'll retire the old saw, pull the guide and chain for continued use and perhaps either craigslist it or harvest parts in the future.  I can't believe how much attention and time I've put into this stupid saw.

Wow, I'm way too spendy to be on this site anymore!  I just don't see the point in not spending if my NW keeps going up every year no matter what I seem to spend.  I don't really care about retirement and I like trying new things.    I can't wait to get back to travel though, starting in August!  I managed to spend $80k on travel in 2019, so that gave me a lot of wiggle room in 2020 to do things other than travel.  I am very thankful for my earlier Mustachianism that got me here, but I'm also not going to disappoint that 20-something yo guy that gave me the go-ahead to spend more once I hit FI :)

$80k of travel in one year.....I really want to know what you did. Please tell, I won't judge!   One it's a boatload on travel (some here would say that amount would be a boatload if that was your entire spending), two I would think a boatload of travel would take aot of time and therefore you must get a lot of time off if still working, three it's a boatload of travel spend. 

Must have been an awesome year which in hindsight was good timing.

@tooqk4u22 It's in my journal, mainly having an apartment for a year in Paris and flying business class back and forth a lot.  Did extra personal travel on top.  The money didn't all come out of my pocket, some was covered by the company, but I just as easily could have paid it all and would not have changed my current circumstances materially.  The main take away for me is that I don't think I could ever spend more than that if I tried, it was exhausting.  I don't even think I could keep it up for two years in a row.  So all of these people with 2 and 3M who worry about running out of money confuse me.  Have they ever even really tried to spend it, I wonder?

Thanks, that does sound exhausting but I could see how basically paying for a 2nd home could get up there......or renting s mega yacht with crew for s week🤔

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 01, 2021, 01:47:14 PM

Quote from: BigEasyStache on July 01, 2021, 08:23:52 AM

Been lurking for years, don't post much.  Figured I'd officially join this group.

TNW = $3,237,018 (401k's, Home we live in, taxable investments)

NW w/o Home = $2,862,020

Here's the progress which includes house.

Year                NW
1997           $126,941.00
1998         $216,948.00
1999    $225,527.00
2000         $240,312.00
2001    $325,434.00
2002    $315,853.00
2003    $377,841.00
2004    $447,961.00
2005    $527,869.00
2006    $771,215.00
2007    $863,363.00
2008    $781,879.00
2009    $902,904.00
2010    $1,055,153.00
2011    $1,091,337.00
2012    $1,208,754.00
2013    $1,406,671.00
2014    $1,558,381.00
2015    $1,652,140.00
2016    $1,766,326.00
2017    $1,943,798.00
2018    $1,996,384.00
2019    $2,349,396.00
As of Dec. 31th, 2020   $2,914,969.00
Present Date   $3,205,630.00

Hey Big Easy.  Nice to see another Louisiana dweller here.  I'm not in NOLA, although it's what I consider my city.  Just down I-10 to Ascension.  We're bailing out to Florida within two years.  Just too much flooding and hurricanes. We live waterfront on the Amite. There is a storm plotted right over our Florida house right now.  It's not a big deal.  There is no flood threat there.   New Orleans and it's culture will always be home.  Good luck and glad you posted.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BigEasyStache on July 01, 2021, 02:17:58 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 01, 2021, 01:47:14 PM

Quote from: BigEasyStache on July 01, 2021, 08:23:52 AM

Been lurking for years, don't post much.  Figured I'd officially join this group.

TNW = $3,237,018 (401k's, Home we live in, taxable investments)

NW w/o Home = $2,862,020

Here's the progress which includes house.

Year                NW
1997           $126,941.00
1998         $216,948.00
1999    $225,527.00
2000         $240,312.00
2001    $325,434.00
2002    $315,853.00
2003    $377,841.00
2004    $447,961.00
2005    $527,869.00
2006    $771,215.00
2007    $863,363.00
2008    $781,879.00
2009    $902,904.00
2010    $1,055,153.00
2011    $1,091,337.00
2012    $1,208,754.00
2013    $1,406,671.00
2014    $1,558,381.00
2015    $1,652,140.00
2016    $1,766,326.00
2017    $1,943,798.00
2018    $1,996,384.00
2019    $2,349,396.00
As of Dec. 31th, 2020   $2,914,969.00
Present Date   $3,205,630.00

Hey Big Easy.  Nice to see another Louisiana dweller here.  I'm not in NOLA, although it's what I consider my city.  Just down I-10 to Ascension.  We're bailing out to Florida within two years.  Just too much flooding and hurricanes. We live waterfront on the Amite. There is a storm plotted right over our Florida house right now.  It's not a big deal.  There is no flood threat there.   New Orleans and it's culture will always be home.  Good luck and glad you posted.

Hey there Bateaux,

My wife's sister and husband live in Ascension.  She teaches there.  Unfortunately, they flooded, though only an inch so didn't have to tear out the sheet rock.  But now everytime they get a hard rain they get nervous.

My wife is RE and we're FI.  I just need to pull the plug.  Once that happens we're relocating to another place (condo) so we can leave at will with no ties.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on July 01, 2021, 04:23:01 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 01, 2021, 12:34:32 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 01, 2021, 12:13:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 01, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on July 01, 2021, 10:00:00 AM

Our breakdown is:
$2.425M - investments/cash/savings
$460k - expected cash after vacation house sales
$2.8M - equity in primary residence

239 days until FIRE. Our goal is a paid off house (I know, I know, but it's a significant part of our FIRE plan & just what we're comfortable with) before I FIRE.

I'm assuming you're in an area with very high housing costs. 

Because if you are, do you realize that if you sold that house and moved to someplace that homes are more affordable, you could buy a house for cash AND add 2+ million in cash to your stash?

You could be retired the day your home sale closing happens.    And this is the real estate market to make that happen!

Yeah, I'm sure MBM knows that. I'm in the same general area, but in a "less expensive" suburb, lol. The thing is that our lives are here, as are our families and the community ties we have created.  Sure, we can move and declare ourselves "winners", but money is only one part of a successful post-FIRE life. I wonder how many folks who shout, "Move!" live in areas where their friends and family are nearby. It makes a difference. If you've always lived in a place,  it's easy to underestimate the value of your connectedness and realize how challenging it can be to cultivate community in a new place. Plus, the Bay Area, with all its craziness, is still a freaking awesome place.

PS - Not singling you out in particular, @SwordGuy, just responding to the general sentiment.

I quite agree!   

But it's our job as forum members to make the options that people have explicit so that they get properly considered.    The poster probably knows it.   But it doesn't hurt to mention it and it might actually help.    I'll grant that 239 days isn't all that long so, what the heck, don't bother moving.   But others who are lurking may have a lot longer to wait and, hey, time is fleeting...

I'm capable of math, so well aware. ;-) I have two kids in high school, so moving right now isn't an option we're currently considering. We also both work in industries that were previously very "Bay Area". Covid has given more flex, but reduced salaries if we move elsewhere. With the kids in high school, moving now isn't a top priority.

We're looking at a relocation timeline of 4-6 years, depending on how things play out with the kids, colleges, etc.

HCOL aside, it's a pretty great place to live. I worry a lot about climate change & the fire risk, which will likely drive us out ahead of the cost of living. It does get old to hear people suggest that we could make these salaries or do this work anywhere. To be fair, we may be able to do this work anywhere (thanks, COVID?), but it's never been an option in the past for our specific jobs/roles/salaries.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 02, 2021, 03:38:40 AM

Its been a bit harder on me as my numbers are not rising as much as others I see on here because we are at a very expensive time with 4 kids in or entering college, remodeling our home which we already have well over 150k in the last year and a half . I passed the 6 year being Fire'd mark in April so the fact we have more than we did NW is pretty nice and a win in itself.

2.61M in Investments not including another 160k in 529s and other monies I consider spent
1.1 M paid for house. And that is being Conservative by a couple 100k based on sales either side of me.
3.7M NW with another 100-150k to put in house which even if market goes sour would fetch us well over 1.3M

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on July 02, 2021, 07:49:06 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 01, 2021, 12:13:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 01, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on July 01, 2021, 10:00:00 AM

Our breakdown is:
$2.425M - investments/cash/savings
$460k - expected cash after vacation house sales
$2.8M - equity in primary residence

239 days until FIRE. Our goal is a paid off house (I know, I know, but it's a significant part of our FIRE plan & just what we're comfortable with) before I FIRE.

I'm assuming you're in an area with very high housing costs. 

Because if you are, do you realize that if you sold that house and moved to someplace that homes are more affordable, you could buy a house for cash AND add 2+ million in cash to your stash?

You could be retired the day your home sale closing happens.    And this is the real estate market to make that happen!

Yeah, I'm sure MBM knows that. I'm in the same general area, but in a "less expensive" suburb, lol. The thing is that our lives are here, as are our families and the community ties we have created.  Sure, we can move and declare ourselves "winners", but money is only one part of a successful post-FIRE life. I wonder how many folks who shout, "Move!" live in areas where their friends and family are nearby. It makes a difference. If you've always lived in a place,  it's easy to underestimate the value of your connectedness and realize how challenging it can be to cultivate community in a new place. Plus, the Bay Area, with all its craziness, is still a freaking awesome place.

PS - Not singling you out in particular, @SwordGuy, just responding to the general sentiment.

Thanks, @Dicey . I replied above on the larger questions about FIRE. I don't think the VHCOL will drive us out, but I'm definitely worried about climate change & fire risk. I feel like that's changed even since we moved 8 years ago. Is it something you think about? Do you have a "back up" location plan? We're looking at San Clemente in a few weeks, for other options, once the kids move out. Even though that area is also HCOL, it's a reduction from the bay area

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roboturner on July 02, 2021, 09:04:27 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on April 06, 2021, 11:35:37 AM

Spoiler: show

Q2 2016:
LNW: 528k
TNW: 720k

Q3 2016:
LNW: 652k
TNW: 845k

YE 2016:
LNW: 685k
TNW: 893k

Q1 2017:
LNW: 800k
TNW: 1001k

Q2 2017:
LNW: 845k
TNW: 1060k

Q3 2017:
LNW: 921k
TNW: 1142k

YE 2017:
LNW: 1,012k
TNW: 1,230k

Q1 2018:
LNW: 1.09 MM
TNW: 1.33 MM

Q2 2018:
LNW: 1.16 MM
TNW: 1.45 MM

Q3 2018:
LNW: 1.28 MM
TNW: 1.57 MM

YE 2018:
LNW: 1.14 MM
TNW: 1.43 MM

Q1 2019:
LNW: 1.41 MM
TNW: 1.71 MM

Q2 2019:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.78 MM

Q3 2019:
LNW: 1.64 MM
TNW: 1.82 MM

YE 2019:
LNW: 1.84 MM
TNW: 2.02 MM

Q1 2020:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.79 MM

Q2 2020:
LNW: 1.94 MM
TNW: 2.15 MM

Q3 2020:
LNW: 2.12 MM
TNW: 2.46 MM

YE 2020:
LNW: 2.40 MM
TNW: 2.74 MM

Q1 2021:
LNW: 2.69 MM
TNW: 3.00 MM

Q2 2021:
LNW: 2.52 MM
TNW: 3.30 MM

Bought our forever home this Q, looking forward to selling the old place to get our splits back in order. But glad to not have to think about looking at homes for the next 30yrs+

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on July 02, 2021, 11:54:40 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on July 02, 2021, 09:04:27 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on April 06, 2021, 11:35:37 AM

[spoiler]

Bought our forever home this Q, looking forward to selling the old place to get our splits back in order. But glad to not have to think about looking at homes for the next 30yrs+

congrats on the home.

I am also glad I won't be house shopping or refi'ing for 30 years

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 02, 2021, 01:50:13 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on July 02, 2021, 07:49:06 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 01, 2021, 12:13:41 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 01, 2021, 11:58:53 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on July 01, 2021, 10:00:00 AM

Our breakdown is:
$2.425M - investments/cash/savings
$460k - expected cash after vacation house sales
$2.8M - equity in primary residence

239 days until FIRE. Our goal is a paid off house (I know, I know, but it's a significant part of our FIRE plan & just what we're comfortable with) before I FIRE.

I'm assuming you're in an area with very high housing costs. 

Because if you are, do you realize that if you sold that house and moved to someplace that homes are more affordable, you could buy a house for cash AND add 2+ million in cash to your stash?

You could be retired the day your home sale closing happens.    And this is the real estate market to make that happen!

Yeah, I'm sure MBM knows that. I'm in the same general area, but in a "less expensive" suburb, lol. The thing is that our lives are here, as are our families and the community ties we have created.  Sure, we can move and declare ourselves "winners", but money is only one part of a successful post-FIRE life. I wonder how many folks who shout, "Move!" live in areas where their friends and family are nearby. It makes a difference. If you've always lived in a place,  it's easy to underestimate the value of your connectedness and realize how challenging it can be to cultivate community in a new place. Plus, the Bay Area, with all its craziness, is still a freaking awesome place.

PS - Not singling you out in particular, @SwordGuy, just responding to the general sentiment.

Thanks, @Dicey . I replied above on the larger questions about FIRE. I don't think the VHCOL will drive us out, but I'm definitely worried about climate change & fire risk. I feel like that's changed even since we moved 8 years ago. Is it something you think about? Do you have a "back up" location plan? We're looking at San Clemente in a few weeks, for other options, once the kids move out. Even though that area is also HCOL, it's a reduction from the bay area

Our back up is the Desert at the moment, butbutbut: water. We worry about the same things, sigh.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 02, 2021, 02:28:37 PM

Look at that market go!

I have been working on our 2012 POS Chevvy Cruze (Crud) for the last three days.. In that time I think market returns has made enough to buy a brand new high end SUV!

Dayum!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on July 02, 2021, 02:44:43 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 02, 2021, 02:28:37 PM

Look at that market go!

I have been working on our 2012 POS Chevvy Cruze (Crud) for the last three days.. In that time I think market returns has made enough to buy a brand new high end SUV!

Dayum!

Go go Gadget Market!  I “made” $10K in 24 hours. Keep hitting those new NW high numbers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 02, 2021, 05:17:00 PM

Probably a good time to revisit the late John Bogle's wise words (https://jamesclear.com/great-speeches/enough-by-john-c-bogle)

Quote

...
We’re moving, or so it seems, to a world where we’re no longer making anything in this country; we’re merely trading pieces of paper, swapping stocks and bonds back and forth with one another, and paying our financial croupiers a veritable fortune. We’re also adding even more costs by creating ever more complex financial derivatives in which huge and unfathomable risks are being built into our financial system. “When enterprise becomes a mere bubble on a whirlpool of speculation,” as the great British economist John Maynard Keynes warned us 70 years ago, the consequences may be dire. “When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job of capitalism is likely to be ill-done.”
...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on July 02, 2021, 06:39:42 PM

Quote from: G-dog on July 02, 2021, 02:44:43 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 02, 2021, 02:28:37 PM

Look at that market go!

I have been working on our 2012 POS Chevvy Cruze (Crud) for the last three days.. In that time I think market returns has made enough to buy a brand new high end SUV!

Dayum!

Go go Gadget Market!  I “made” $10K in 24 hours. Keep hitting those new NW high numbers.

Hell yeah, my investments increased $14k in value today...many more times the paycheck that was direct deposited into my brokerage account today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on July 02, 2021, 06:46:56 PM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on July 02, 2021, 06:39:42 PM

Quote from: G-dog on July 02, 2021, 02:44:43 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 02, 2021, 02:28:37 PM

Look at that market go!

I have been working on our 2012 POS Chevvy Cruze (Crud) for the last three days.. In that time I think market returns has made enough to buy a brand new high end SUV!

Dayum!

Go go Gadget Market!  I “made” $10K in 24 hours. Keep hitting those new NW high numbers.

Hell yeah, my investments increased $14k in value today...many more times the paycheck that was direct deposited into my brokerage account today.

BOOTAH!  New NW high today, details later.

ETA: Details - up almost another $13K in 24 hours.  In my first job my gross pay was $16.6K. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on July 03, 2021, 04:50:00 AM

I need to get a better picture of FF's current investment figures but a rough estimate puts us up to about 2.8m. even though housing is still fairly cheap in Florida we do own 3 of them so thats having an impact too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 03, 2021, 06:01:59 AM

So how high does the roller coaster keep going until we have to put our hands up and scream as we rush downward?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on July 03, 2021, 06:10:53 AM

I think we are hitting our tap out point for net worth for awhile. $2.64 million this month, but we will be splashing out for college x 2 this year. That fun begins in August with housing payments and tuition payments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 03, 2021, 07:28:31 AM

Quote from: couponvan on July 03, 2021, 06:10:53 AM

I think we are hitting our tap out point for net worth for awhile. $2.64 million this month, but we will be splashing out for college x 2 this year. That fun begins in August with housing payments and tuition payments.

I feel your pain, I have 1 out of school and 2 in.  I'm already in for ~$225K in tuition, housing, etc.  Estimating another $85K to go, so the end is in sight.  529 plans helped a lot, and like others, I never include those in NW calcs because its spent money.  But those are down to ~$30K left in total, so will be supplementing with non-529 funds.

Hope your kids are able to enjoy their college experience under more normal times.  For my Junior (in the fall), it has been so strange with the whole COVID thing completely changing the dynamic.  It is a shame that these kids are not getting the full college experience and possibly not the same education.  I hope her second 2 years are better than her first 2.  Good luck to you!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 03, 2021, 09:25:18 AM

Ok to add to the market sillyness.

We have made $59,000 in a single week.. Yes WEEK!

My first salary when I emigrated to the US was $53,000 a YEAR!.. Upon which I paid taxes... I don't pay taxes today (except a small amount of State tax).

So total today is $2928k plus house plus pensions... Like damn.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 03, 2021, 09:43:32 AM

Quote from: G-dog on July 02, 2021, 06:46:56 PM

ETA: Details - up almost another $13K in 24 hours.  In my first job my gross pay was $16.6K.

Lol, my first career job paid $13k, which is how much our property taxes are on our primary home.

We're on a road trip, so we haven't checked our account balances, but it's good to know our money's working while we're out playing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on July 03, 2021, 10:38:12 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 03, 2021, 09:25:18 AM

Ok to add to the market sillyness.

We have made $59,000 in a single week.. Yes WEEK!

My first salary when I emigrated to the US was $53,000 a YEAR!.. Upon which I paid taxes... I don't pay taxes today (except a small amount of State tax).

So total today is $2928k plus house plus pensions... Like damn.

this was eye opening…I also gained more value this week, than my 1st engineering salary in 2002.

To further add to the craziness, I just updated my quarterly NW tracking spreadsheet and the first half of 2021 it has gained 150% of my highest benefit bearing base salary.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 03, 2021, 11:41:47 AM

Our net worth as retirees went up more this 1/2 year than we earned in the first 7 or 8 years, maybe 9 years, my wife and I lived together.

Then again, we were poor.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on July 03, 2021, 12:35:58 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 03, 2021, 09:43:32 AM

Quote from: G-dog on July 02, 2021, 06:46:56 PM

ETA: Details - up almost another $13K in 24 hours.  In my first job my gross pay was $16.6K.

Lol, my first career job paid $13k, which is how much our property taxes are on our primary home.

We're on a road trip, so we haven't checked our account balances, but it's good to know our money's working while we're out playing.

Your monies are working HARD @Dicey !

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on July 03, 2021, 12:38:00 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 03, 2021, 09:25:18 AM

Ok to add to the market sillyness.

We have made $59,000 in a single week.. Yes WEEK!

My first salary when I emigrated to the US was $53,000 a YEAR!.. Upon which I paid taxes... I don't pay taxes today (except a small amount of State tax).

So total today is $2928k plus house plus pensions... Like damn.

Yeah, my $16.6K / year was before taxes. Not sure how to value benefits (health care, dental,  403(b), whatever else there was way back then)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 03, 2021, 02:41:23 PM

I just sent the IRS $230K for the lots we sold last year.  I'm glad we aren't still building Mexican walls with it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 03, 2021, 06:53:25 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 03, 2021, 02:41:23 PM

I just sent the IRS $230K for the lots we sold last year.  I'm glad we aren't still building Mexican walls with it.

Lol, congratulations and ouch! However, I know from previous posts that you still ended up with a nice fat gain for your trouble. I'm kind of a fan of the "Worry about the growth, not the taxes" school of thought, especially when we're talking about taxes that are levied at the current Long Term Capital Gains rate.

Oh, and ditto on the wall.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 03, 2021, 07:14:09 PM

So the TSP is finally playing nice with financial planning apps like personal capital.  While I was linking the account, looks, gets out calculator, adds in cash and the pitiful “cash value” of my pension (it’s pitiful since it’s only my contributions over the years with no interest but it is for sure what I could cash out if I left and gave up my pension). Hits $2,000,944 in LNW.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 03, 2021, 07:18:32 PM

I would have thought that you could borrow against the equity in plots of land and thus use the "buy, borrow, die" method to avoid paying taxes.

Only little people pay taxes in the USA apparently..:(

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 03, 2021, 08:16:22 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 03, 2021, 11:41:47 AM

Our net worth as retirees went up more this 1/2 year than we earned in the first 7 or 8 years, maybe 9 years, my wife and I lived together.

Then again, we were poor.

Our accounts have grown more the first half, than our gross earning at both our jobs combined will be in 2021.  2021 will be one of our biggest gross income years from our jobs.  How long can it continue?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 03, 2021, 08:40:36 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 03, 2021, 08:16:22 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 03, 2021, 11:41:47 AM

Our net worth as retirees went up more this 1/2 year than we earned in the first 7 or 8 years, maybe 9 years, my wife and I lived together.

Then again, we were poor.

Our accounts have grown more the first half, than our gross earning at both our jobs combined will be in 2021.  2021 will be one of our biggest gross income years from our jobs.  How long can it continue?

I guess we've all wondered about that one.  Wiki says business cycles last 2 to 10 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_cycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_cycle)

It seems like the good times have been rolling longer than that.  Maybe, the Covid thing was the end of the business cycle and the counter was reset.  There are lots of businesses that went under due to the Covid.

The future looks sort of bright.  There's going to be a lot of infrastructure work when the government gets it together.  There's lots of investment in this climate change stuff like batteries.  It seems like there may have been a permanent change in the way business is done with the home workers.  This has required home offices to be created.  The supply chains are backed up so I think this reflects a great demand for products.  They can't get chips for cars so there must be a boom of sorts in semiconductors.

People are refusing to take the low wage jobs.  This means that eventually the businesses will have to pay folks more.  These folks then, in turn, will have more money to spend generating a true trickle up in the economy.  Maybe, all that cash that's supposedly being hoarded by corporations will be invested to meet that demand.

https://treasury-management.com/news/corporate-cash-soars-1-01-trillion-in-2020-to-3-82t/ (https://treasury-management.com/news/corporate-cash-soars-1-01-trillion-in-2020-to-3-82t/)

But, who knows how long it will really continue.  Enjoy it while it's here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on July 03, 2021, 10:34:37 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 01, 2021, 06:30:49 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on July 01, 2021, 02:48:38 AM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$

Got a bit of hit in June mainly due gold price going down as well as crypto's.

753 days to Fire.

Finntastic - $750K in cash is about 15x what I have in cash....is this a statement about where you think the market is headed?

Yes it is, but I'm no expert however I do believe that we are going to see market going down by 30-40% before the end of the year. I'm planning to buy some more physical gold as well as real estate mainly in Finland which didn't take much of a hit 2008-2010 the real estate prices dropped max -1%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 05, 2021, 05:57:20 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on July 03, 2021, 10:34:37 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 01, 2021, 06:30:49 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on July 01, 2021, 02:48:38 AM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$

Got a bit of hit in June mainly due gold price going down as well as crypto's.

753 days to Fire.

Finntastic - $750K in cash is about 15x what I have in cash....is this a statement about where you think the market is headed?

Yes it is, but I'm no expert however I do believe that we are going to see market going down by 30-40% before the end of the year. I'm planning to buy some more physical gold as well as real estate mainly in Finland which didn't take much of a hit 2008-2010 the real estate prices dropped max -1%.

Well, I hope you're wrong on the stock market, but I wish you success in your gold & real estate strategies!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 05, 2021, 07:59:07 PM

I think “Top is In” posts are for another thread ;-)

But anyways…..

No point in trying to pick the market in the short term. Pretty much akin to making regular trips to the casino as your core wealth building strategy.

Sure, there is a chance you will be right in picking the top, but there is a greater chance you will be wrong.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 05, 2021, 08:34:42 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 05, 2021, 07:59:07 PM

I think “Top is In” posts are for another thread ;-)

But anyways…..

No point in trying to pick the market in the short term. Pretty much akin to making regular trips to the casino as your core wealth building strategy.

Sure, there is a chance you will be right in picking the top, but there is a greater chance you will be wrong.

He's probably right on picking his point of 'Enough' tho :)  At that point, you can be right or wrong about the top and the outcome is the same.  Of course, if you call the top and you are right, well, then that's probably a nicer place than being wrong.

As Bogleheads say - once you've won the game, you can stop playing.  I'm intrigued that we have Mustachians pushing folks to stay in the market after hitting their number, since our cohort should be far than more capable of adjusting their spending.  Why push the pedal to the metal (100% equities) for more once you're FI?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 05, 2021, 08:47:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 05, 2021, 08:34:42 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 05, 2021, 07:59:07 PM

I think “Top is In” posts are for another thread ;-)

But anyways…..

No point in trying to pick the market in the short term. Pretty much akin to making regular trips to the casino as your core wealth building strategy.

Sure, there is a chance you will be right in picking the top, but there is a greater chance you will be wrong.

He's probably right on picking his point of 'Enough' tho :)  At that point, you can be right or wrong about the top and the outcome is the same.  Of course, if you call the top and you are right, well, then that's probably a nicer place than being wrong.

As Bogleheads say - once you've won the game, you can stop playing.  I'm intrigued that we have Mustachians pushing folks to stay in the market after hitting their number, since our cohort should be far than more capable of adjusting their spending.  Why push the pedal to the metal (100% equities) for more once you're FI?

Maybe some of these people have a little Warren Buffet in them.  They just like playing the game and they are good at it.  That Boglehead saying is a good one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 05, 2021, 08:55:52 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 05, 2021, 08:47:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 05, 2021, 08:34:42 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 05, 2021, 07:59:07 PM

I think “Top is In” posts are for another thread ;-)

But anyways…..

No point in trying to pick the market in the short term. Pretty much akin to making regular trips to the casino as your core wealth building strategy.

Sure, there is a chance you will be right in picking the top, but there is a greater chance you will be wrong.

He's probably right on picking his point of 'Enough' tho :)  At that point, you can be right or wrong about the top and the outcome is the same.  Of course, if you call the top and you are right, well, then that's probably a nicer place than being wrong.

As Bogleheads say - once you've won the game, you can stop playing.  I'm intrigued that we have Mustachians pushing folks to stay in the market after hitting their number, since our cohort should be far than more capable of adjusting their spending.  Why push the pedal to the metal (100% equities) for more once you're FI?

Maybe some of these people have a little Warren Buffet in them.  They just like playing the game and they are good at it.  That Boglehead saying is a good one.

My favorite Boglehead saying is - understand your willingness, need, and ability to take risk.  Words to live by.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 06, 2021, 06:10:29 AM

Apologies for misunderstanding the context if I did.

I can understand a decision to move ones portfolio to a more conservative setting, or to a different mix to include different assets.

However, what I read above was that the decision was being taken on a prediction that the market would drop 30%.

I believe it’s best to try and make decisions about portfolio mix independent of feelings about markets or predictions about the future which have a high probability of being wrong. I generally see my emotions and predictions as irrelevant to investing. But I am a lazy ass set and forget type. Def not a stock picker.

What is not irrelevant to investing is the fact that risk appetite will change depending on life circumstances. I 100% get that. My appetite for risk has reduced as I near FIRE so I am paying down investment loans (reducing leverage) rather than buying more stock. Feels like a sensible thing to do since “I’ve won the game”.

I also would caution the logic that because Finish real estate didn’t go down last time stocks crashed it won’t next time. Maybe??!!

But before you all hit me with “diversification is good”, I will say I have no disagreement with that. If the reasoning for the purchase off Finnish real estate was a desire to have a diversified portfolio, then no argument. If the reason is to provide shelter from an impending 30% stock correction later this year then that’s another thing. I mean what do you do at that point. Stocks are 30% cheaper. Time to buy!!! But alas you just bought a nice new Helsinki apartment. Do you sell the apartment? How do you rebalance to your target asset allocation?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 06, 2021, 06:40:36 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 05, 2021, 08:47:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 05, 2021, 08:34:42 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 05, 2021, 07:59:07 PM

I think “Top is In” posts are for another thread ;-)

But anyways…..

No point in trying to pick the market in the short term. Pretty much akin to making regular trips to the casino as your core wealth building strategy.

Sure, there is a chance you will be right in picking the top, but there is a greater chance you will be wrong.

He's probably right on picking his point of 'Enough' tho :)  At that point, you can be right or wrong about the top and the outcome is the same.  Of course, if you call the top and you are right, well, then that's probably a nicer place than being wrong.

As Bogleheads say - once you've won the game, you can stop playing.  I'm intrigued that we have Mustachians pushing folks to stay in the market after hitting their number, since our cohort should be far than more capable of adjusting their spending.  Why push the pedal to the metal (100% equities) for more once you're FI?

Maybe some of these people have a little Warren Buffet in them.  They just like playing the game and they are good at it.  That Boglehead saying is a good one.

I'm not at FI yes, but if I had to guess I would think that a big part of it is the "addiction" to watching the NW make significant jumps during positive market moves.  I can completely understand this and how it is tough to play it conservative when the market is running up 15% per year?   And honestly looking at the returns of the S&P500 over time, its hard to argue against a strategy that is heavily weighted towards equities and be prepared to leverage the margin account to survive significant dips (say more than 15% down), which tend to be few and far between (using history as the guide).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 06, 2021, 10:13:40 AM

I think this is the first time on a MMM forum that I remember anyone talking about investment loans. Is this the same as buying stocks on margin??

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 06, 2021, 10:22:17 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 06, 2021, 10:13:40 AM

I think this is the first time on a MMM forum that I remember anyone talking about investment loans. Is this the same as buying stocks on margin??

Effectively yes, but you don't need to use a margin loan just for stock purchases.  I've effectively got a line of credit against my after-tax investment holdings that can be used for any purpose up to 50% of the value of my after-tax investments.   I have not used this, but its there should I need to.  I assume others have done this???

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 06, 2021, 10:28:00 AM

I once read that the key to becoming rich is to use OPM, i.e. Other People's Money.  I guess investment loans could be an example of that.  You guys are movers and shakers and probably have some stories about how you used OPM to get rich.  The link give examples:

https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/wealth/how-to-build-wealth-using-other-peoples-money/ (https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/wealth/how-to-build-wealth-using-other-peoples-money/)

Yeh - I guess the world isn't run by people like me who used to go to the job every day and save money.  I could have learned a lot from people like you when I was younger.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 06, 2021, 01:03:26 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 06, 2021, 10:28:00 AM

I once read that the key to becoming rich is to use OPM, i.e. Other People's Money.  I guess investment loans could be an example of that.  You guys are movers and shakers and probably have some stories about how you used OPM to get rich.  The link give examples:

https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/wealth/how-to-build-wealth-using-other-peoples-money/ (https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/wealth/how-to-build-wealth-using-other-peoples-money/)

Yeh - I guess the world isn't run by people like me who used to go to the job every day and save money.  I could have learned a lot from people like you when I was younger.

Ha!  Not sure I qualify as a mover and a shaker!  And like I said, I personally have never tapped my Margin account.....honestly my taxable invested assets I'm sure pale in comparison to others in this forum -- somewhere between $650-700K.  For me everything else is 401(k), IRA, HSA, etc., which I don't think are margin-able.

To me, its not too much different than borrowing against the equity in your home, though.  So the idea of a margin loan is not that novel of a concept and I think most brokerages will set them up for you.  You do need to be careful, because the loan is a real $ commitment and it is secured by investments which can decline in value. 

In fact, I recall reading a post by MMM himself that he had used a Margin Loan to buy a house:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2021/01/29/margin-loan-ibkr-review/

Not a long-term financial strategy I would advocate, but for brief periods, it seems to make sense vs selling securities at a loss or at short term capital gains rates.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 06, 2021, 02:30:23 PM

When I referred to investment loan I was referring to mortgages on realestate that are not my home, referred to in Australia as investment properties.

Earlier in my journey to FIRE I felt comfortable to use other people’s money and take a risk that the return from what I did with that money would be higher than the cost of interest on those funds.

Now I’m close to FIRE I am repaying most of that debt to reduce risk.

I can say that the strategy of using other people’s money to create wealth definitely worked for me. But like others have said above, once you have won the game it’s quite natural for your appetite for risk to reduce,

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 06, 2021, 04:51:10 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 05, 2021, 08:34:42 PM

As Bogleheads say - once you've won the game, you can stop playing.  I'm intrigued that we have Mustachians pushing folks to stay in the market after hitting their number, since our cohort should be far than more capable of adjusting their spending.  Why push the pedal to the metal (100% equities) for more once you're FI?

I'm 52.  I use a planning horizon to age 90.  That means 38 years.

My primary goal is maximizing the probability of being able to stay FIREd and not go broke over that 38 year time frame.

So what I do is run FIREcalc with my numbers, including that 38 year figure, and look at it's investigate AA feature.  What I see is that 90%-95% stocks is the AA most likely to meet my goal.

I then also realize that I won't spend all of what I have.  The part I don't spend will go to my kids, probably in 30-40 years.  That part I invest at 100% stocks because (a) they haven't won the game yet, and (b) it's 30 years, and (c) they generally have a high capacity for risk.

I do a little math to mix my 90%-95% with their 100% and arrive at a final target of 97%.

I do it not to "play the game" but to "be as safe as possible".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 06, 2021, 10:48:00 PM

I'm sure some of, if not all would qualify as accredited investors.  What the hell that does for you I haven't a clue.  Really don't want to know. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 07, 2021, 11:30:47 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 06, 2021, 10:48:00 PM

I'm sure some of, if not all would qualify as accredited investors.  What the hell that does for you I haven't a clue.  Really don't want to know.

An accredited investor, as far as I can make it out, is allowed to risk more of their assets in certain types of business ventures than "regular folks".   The assumption is that they know what they are doing and are less likely to be (legally) defrauded of their investment funds.   
I don't want to make the kind and size of investments that I would need to be an accredited investor because why would I want to risk that much when I've already won the game?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 07, 2021, 11:16:05 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 07, 2021, 11:30:47 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 06, 2021, 10:48:00 PM

I'm sure some of, if not all would qualify as accredited investors.  What the hell that does for you I haven't a clue.  Really don't want to know.

An accredited investor, as far as I can make it out, is allowed to risk more of their assets in certain types of business ventures than "regular folks".   The assumption is that they know what they are doing and are less likely to be (legally) defrauded of their investment funds.   
I don't want to make the kind and size of investments that I would need to be an accredited investor because why would I want to risk that much when I've already won the game?

I'm just glad that I'm smart enough to know, that I'm not smart enough to know, shit about risky investments of the elite.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on July 08, 2021, 07:08:22 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 07, 2021, 11:16:05 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 07, 2021, 11:30:47 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 06, 2021, 10:48:00 PM

I'm sure some of, if not all would qualify as accredited investors.  What the hell that does for you I haven't a clue.  Really don't want to know.

An accredited investor, as far as I can make it out, is allowed to risk more of their assets in certain types of business ventures than "regular folks".   The assumption is that they know what they are doing and are less likely to be (legally) defrauded of their investment funds.   
I don't want to make the kind and size of investments that I would need to be an accredited investor because why would I want to risk that much when I've already won the game?

I'm just glad that I'm smart enough to know, that I'm not smart enough to know, shit about risky investments of the elite.

I believe that all members of this thread qualify as "the elite " and also as accredited investors, including @Bateaux .

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 08, 2021, 07:27:01 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on July 08, 2021, 07:08:22 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 07, 2021, 11:16:05 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 07, 2021, 11:30:47 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 06, 2021, 10:48:00 PM

I'm sure some of, if not all would qualify as accredited investors.  What the hell that does for you I haven't a clue.  Really don't want to know.

An accredited investor, as far as I can make it out, is allowed to risk more of their assets in certain types of business ventures than "regular folks".   The assumption is that they know what they are doing and are less likely to be (legally) defrauded of their investment funds.   
I don't want to make the kind and size of investments that I would need to be an accredited investor because why would I want to risk that much when I've already won the game?

I'm just glad that I'm smart enough to know, that I'm not smart enough to know, shit about risky investments of the elite.

I believe that all members of this thread qualify as "the elite " and also as accredited investors, including @Bateaux .

I've got a feeling that there's a "secret handshake" that few of us are privy to.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BigEasyStache on July 08, 2021, 07:39:47 AM

Bateaux pretty much nailed it.  Years ago a friend of mine offered me an opportunity to invest in a start up.  In order to qualify you had to be an accredited investor.  It simply meant that your NW was > $1M.  It may be different now as that was nearly 20 years ago.  I had to provide financial proof.  What is strange is that the amount you can invest is not limited.  So once your qualified you're free to blow your entire wad if you choose. You just had to have at least $1M to start.

Another advantage for the accredited investor was that it allowed you to get an Angels Investor Credit.  In my case it was a 33% credit over 3 years. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 08, 2021, 09:16:54 AM

Quote from: BigEasyStache on July 08, 2021, 07:39:47 AM

Another advantage for the accredited investor was that it allowed you to get an Angels Investor Credit.  In my case it was a 33% credit over 3 years.

Oh, thank you for that!     I invested some money in a trucking company startup and I need to read up on this.   Might be able to structure the investment (or further investments) to take advantage of this.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 08, 2021, 12:51:46 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 08, 2021, 09:16:54 AM

Quote from: BigEasyStache on July 08, 2021, 07:39:47 AM

Another advantage for the accredited investor was that it allowed you to get an Angels Investor Credit.  In my case it was a 33% credit over 3 years.

Oh, thank you for that!     I invested some money in a trucking company startup and I need to read up on this.   Might be able to structure the investment (or further investments) to take advantage of this.

I'll still say it even though it dates me.  That information may help you to Keep On Trucking.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 08, 2021, 01:35:47 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 06, 2021, 04:51:10 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 05, 2021, 08:34:42 PM

As Bogleheads say - once you've won the game, you can stop playing.  I'm intrigued that we have Mustachians pushing folks to stay in the market after hitting their number, since our cohort should be far than more capable of adjusting their spending.  Why push the pedal to the metal (100% equities) for more once you're FI?

I'm 52.  I use a planning horizon to age 90.  That means 38 years.

My primary goal is maximizing the probability of being able to stay FIREd and not go broke over that 38 year time frame.

So what I do is run FIREcalc with my numbers, including that 38 year figure, and look at it's investigate AA feature.  What I see is that 90%-95% stocks is the AA most likely to meet my goal.

I then also realize that I won't spend all of what I have.  The part I don't spend will go to my kids, probably in 30-40 years.  That part I invest at 100% stocks because (a) they haven't won the game yet, and (b) it's 30 years, and (c) they generally have a high capacity for risk.

I do a little math to mix my 90%-95% with their 100% and arrive at a final target of 97%.

I do it not to "play the game" but to "be as safe as possible".

Just for fun, I did the same thing, using a 40 year horizon and my numbers.  As long as I have at least 5% exposure to stocks, then I have 100% success.  Not very enlightening.

So I tried a second run after carving out $2 million (e.g. donor advised fund - which makes sense to set to 100% stock).  I get something that looks like 50 - 75% stocks being optimal.

I'd be interested to know how you get a result like 100% or 95% stocks being a higher success probability than 80% stocks during drawdown.  Are you assuming you will stay in the accumulation phase during some of that retirement period, or are you using higher than 4% SWR for your money after setting the inheritance aside?

I'm running fairly simplified tests, but don't get your results unless I go to lower success rates, which typically do increase with 100% stock but also only max out at sub-90% success rate...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 08, 2021, 02:24:58 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 08, 2021, 01:35:47 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 06, 2021, 04:51:10 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 05, 2021, 08:34:42 PM

As Bogleheads say - once you've won the game, you can stop playing.  I'm intrigued that we have Mustachians pushing folks to stay in the market after hitting their number, since our cohort should be far than more capable of adjusting their spending.  Why push the pedal to the metal (100% equities) for more once you're FI?

I'm 52.  I use a planning horizon to age 90.  That means 38 years.

My primary goal is maximizing the probability of being able to stay FIREd and not go broke over that 38 year time frame.

So what I do is run FIREcalc with my numbers, including that 38 year figure, and look at it's investigate AA feature.  What I see is that 90%-95% stocks is the AA most likely to meet my goal.

I then also realize that I won't spend all of what I have.  The part I don't spend will go to my kids, probably in 30-40 years.  That part I invest at 100% stocks because (a) they haven't won the game yet, and (b) it's 30 years, and (c) they generally have a high capacity for risk.

I do a little math to mix my 90%-95% with their 100% and arrive at a final target of 97%.

I do it not to "play the game" but to "be as safe as possible".

Just for fun, I did the same thing, using a 40 year horizon and my numbers.  As long as I have at least 5% exposure to stocks, then I have 100% success.  Not very enlightening.

So I tried a second run after carving out $2 million (e.g. donor advised fund - which makes sense to set to 100% stock).  I get something that looks like 50 - 75% stocks being optimal.

I'd be interested to know how you get a result like 100% or 95% stocks being a higher success probability than 80% stocks during drawdown.  Are you assuming you will stay in the accumulation phase during some of that retirement period, or are you using higher than 4% SWR for your money after setting the inheritance aside?

I'm running fairly simplified tests, but don't get your results unless I go to lower success rates, which typically do increase with 100% stock but also only max out at sub-90% success rate...

I'll describe my general process, but I have a rigid policy of not disclosing anything about assets or income publicly, so you may be left wanting a bit.

I put in my actual spending, portfolio, and 38 years on the first tab.

On the second tab, I put in my Social Security and my start year.  My SS actually covers my spending and starts in 2039.  I also put in my non-portfolio income, which is about half of my expected SS, and I start that in the current year and keep the inflation adjusted checkbox checked.

(I suspect the above entries are the key difference between my analysis and yours.)

On the portfolio tab, I put fees of 0.04% and equities at 97%, because those are my actual numbers.

With the above numbers, I get a success rate of 100%.  I then go to the investigate tab and search for the 95% success spending level, which is about twice my actual spending level.  This is to explore what my AA should look like at a modestly unsafe level, since at my actual spending level I'm 100% safe, and probably 100% safe at any AA.

I take that 95% success spending level, and change my spending on the first tab to that number, then go to the investigate tab and choose the "changing my AA" radio button.

Which leads me to one minor point that I left out - when choosing my AA based on the above, I will trade off a modest amount of safety for a much higher stock AA, because I also know from experience that higher stock AAs have higher terminal values even if the safety level is about the same, and while I mostly care about safety I also care about terminal value as I have three offspring who I'm playing for.  This is especially true since at the moment I'm only spending at about half the 95% safety level as alluded to above.

I've attached a screenshot showing that final result.  As you can see, there's a broad plateau on the right from 60% to 95% equities, with a slight drop to the right of that and a slight rise to the left.  For me the tradeoff between 55% equities at ~97% success vs. 95% equities at ~95% success is worth going to the latter.

(The math to do the mixing to get to 97% success is just some simple arithmetic in Excel based on current spending, current portfolio, and the 95% result from the above analysis.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 08, 2021, 03:57:59 PM

Thanks for that @secondcor521 !  I was wondering if there was some interaction between taxes and charitable giving assumptions…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 08, 2021, 08:36:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 08, 2021, 03:57:59 PM

Thanks for that @secondcor521 !  I was wondering if there was some interaction between taxes and charitable giving assumptions…

What did I just read?  My eyes hurt.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 08, 2021, 09:46:04 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 08, 2021, 08:36:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 08, 2021, 03:57:59 PM

Thanks for that @secondcor521 !  I was wondering if there was some interaction between taxes and charitable giving assumptions…

What did I just read?  My eyes hurt.

Wait 'til I get going.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMz7JBRbmNo

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 08, 2021, 10:43:12 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 08, 2021, 09:46:04 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 08, 2021, 08:36:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 08, 2021, 03:57:59 PM

Thanks for that @secondcor521 !  I was wondering if there was some interaction between taxes and charitable giving assumptions…

What did I just read?  My eyes hurt.

Wait 'til I get going.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMz7JBRbmNo

As long as we know what we are talking about, right?  eh??  anybody?!  Sheesh, in the end, everyone is dead again :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 09, 2021, 01:59:24 PM

Strong end to the week in the market!  Good to see the Russell 2000 up 2%!   Here's to another 4 years of this bull market!  Happy Friday!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on July 09, 2021, 04:59:02 PM

How many people in this thread are still accumulating?  I kind of enjoy the sales…^RUT down 2% on the week for next weeks purchase.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 10, 2021, 04:23:21 AM

Quote from: BigEasyStache on July 08, 2021, 07:39:47 AM

Bateaux pretty much nailed it.  Years ago a friend of mine offered me an opportunity to invest in a start up.  In order to qualify you had to be an accredited investor.  It simply meant that your NW was > $1M.  It may be different now as that was nearly 20 years ago.  I had to provide financial proof.  What is strange is that the amount you can invest is not limited.  So once your qualified you're free to blow your entire wad if you choose. You just had to have at least $1M to start.

Another advantage for the accredited investor was that it allowed you to get an Angels Investor Credit.  In my case it was a 33% credit over 3 years.

I was invited to one that is actually this upcoming Wednesday. There are 30 invitees to raise 3M dollars and the only question asked was to select an option of monies you would be willing to invest. 0-50k, 50-100k and so on. Your NW had to be a Million dollars but it must of been assumed as the only thing that i have to sign off on is a letter of confidentiality with there Lawyer. This is a Friend of mine so to keep thing that way I would only invest on the smaller side if anything to keep it that way. Interesting to see the whole venue however as they rented a pretty fancy place for this. I will probably be the only guy without a suit there haha.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 10, 2021, 07:07:15 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on July 09, 2021, 04:59:02 PM

How many people in this thread are still accumulating?

Uh, all of us? Compound interest and investment gains are doing the heavy lifting for everyone in this group. We got to this benchmark by spending less than we earn. That continues to be the case, whether we're still drawing a paycheck or living off our investments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 10, 2021, 07:40:33 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on July 09, 2021, 04:59:02 PM

How many people in this thread are still accumulating?  I kind of enjoy the sales…^RUT down 2% on the week for next weeks purchase.

I interpret this question to mean "actively contributing to your investment stash" versus letting compounding do all the work as @Dicey stated.   In that case, I fall into the "actively contributing" category and probably will for the next 3-4 years, albeit at a slower pace than I should/could, given some expenses that I have in getting 2 all the way thru school (1 undergrad and 1 in grad school) and I also have what I have officially deemed the world's most expensive dog :-).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 10, 2021, 07:43:28 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 10, 2021, 07:07:15 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on July 09, 2021, 04:59:02 PM

How many people in this thread are still accumulating?

Uh, all of us? Compound interest and investment gains are doing the heavy lifting for everyone in this group. We got to this benchmark by spending less than we earn. That continues to be the case, whether we're still drawing a paycheck or living off our investments.

I may have used this herein previously:

Albert Einstein is reputed to have said, 'Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it; he who doesn't, pays it.'

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 10, 2021, 07:55:30 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 10, 2021, 07:43:28 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 10, 2021, 07:07:15 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on July 09, 2021, 04:59:02 PM

How many people in this thread are still accumulating?

Uh, all of us? Compound interest and investment gains are doing the heavy lifting for everyone in this group. We got to this benchmark by spending less than we earn. That continues to be the case, whether we're still drawing a paycheck or living off our investments.

I may have used this herein previously:

Albert Einstein is reputed to have said, 'Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it; he who doesn't, pays it.'

Wow!  Never heard that quote, but I love it!  Words to live by.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 10, 2021, 07:55:54 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 10, 2021, 07:43:28 AM

Quote from: Dicey on July 10, 2021, 07:07:15 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on July 09, 2021, 04:59:02 PM

How many people in this thread are still accumulating?

Uh, all of us? Compound interest and investment gains are doing the heavy lifting for everyone in this group. We got to this benchmark by spending less than we earn. That continues to be the case, whether we're still drawing a paycheck or living off our investments.

I may have used this herein previously:

Albert Einstein is reputed to have said, 'Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it; he who doesn't, pays it.'

I'm a huge proponent of the DPOYM Club. I think of AE's wisdom on the subject all the time. It's what helped me get over my very early (and mercifully short lived) desire to Kill.The.Mortgage.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on July 10, 2021, 07:56:42 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 10, 2021, 07:40:33 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on July 09, 2021, 04:59:02 PM

How many people in this thread are still accumulating?  I kind of enjoy the sales…^RUT down 2% on the week for next weeks purchase.

I interpret this question to mean "actively contributing to your investment stash" versus letting compounding do all the work as @Dicey stated.   In that case, I fall into the "actively contributing" category and probably will for the next 3-4 years, albeit at a slower pace than I should/could, given some expenses that I have in getting 2 all the way thru school (1 undergrad and 1 in grad school) and I also have what I have officially deemed the world's most expensive dog :-).

We are actively contributing. We won't give up our 401ks until we stop working, as it reduces our taxable income

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on July 10, 2021, 08:43:05 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on July 10, 2021, 07:56:42 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 10, 2021, 07:40:33 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on July 09, 2021, 04:59:02 PM

How many people in this thread are still accumulating?  I kind of enjoy the sales…^RUT down 2% on the week for next weeks purchase.

I interpret this question to mean "actively contributing to your investment stash"...   In that case, I fall into the "actively contributing" category and probably will for the next 3-4 years

We are actively contributing. We won't give up our 401ks until we stop working, as it reduces our taxable income

Same, it keeps our MAGI under the Roth limits, bigger child tax credit, etc.  Also generous employer matches even if we contribute a pittance -- free money, and quite a bit of it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 10, 2021, 08:47:20 AM

We're already retired, but we spend less than our passive income and the 4% rule would allow us to, so in a way we're still contributing.

We have zero intention of going back to work to contribute more. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on July 10, 2021, 09:24:52 AM

I am retired, but still put money in my HSA (invest max I can) and have put more cash in the market (retired with lots of cash). It would have to be a really deep gully for me to put more cash in now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 10, 2021, 09:31:37 AM

I am working for 4 more years, I will continue maxing out my tax advantaged accounts, but with my move out toward dicey, I’m willing to spend the rest.  (So no active contributions to my taxable account).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on July 10, 2021, 09:42:33 AM

@arcturus yes, that is how I meant the question.  I’m in your boat, I have a coast gig for benefits and maxing out tax advantaged accounts…not much leftover for after tax investing.  Planning on 29.5 more modes of this….most likely won’t hit $4M by then.

Quote from: Dicey on July 10, 2021, 07:07:15 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on July 09, 2021, 04:59:02 PM

How many people in this thread are still accumulating?

We got to this benchmark by spending less than we earn. That continues to be the case, whether we're still drawing a paycheck or living off our investments.

@Dicey thanks for the personal finance lesson :rolleyes:

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: amberfocus on July 10, 2021, 10:11:24 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on July 09, 2021, 04:59:02 PM

How many people in this thread are still accumulating?

I am no longer working, so my personal stash is technically in drawdown. The SO is still working, however, so although we keep separate finances, the overall 'household' is still accumulating. If the markets cooperate, we should be (jointly) reaching 'beyond' levels in the next couple of years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 10, 2021, 11:08:59 AM

Hmm we're both retired but our 0.69% WR seems to be having a similar effect of actively contributing.

At least during this bull market..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 10, 2021, 12:43:53 PM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on July 10, 2021, 09:42:33 AM

@arcturus yes, that is how I meant the question.  I’m in your boat, I have a coast gig for benefits and maxing out tax advantaged accounts…not much leftover for after tax investing.  Planning on 29.5 more modes of this….most likely won’t hit $4M by then.

Quote from: Dicey on July 10, 2021, 07:07:15 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on July 09, 2021, 04:59:02 PM

How many people in this thread are still accumulating?

We got to this benchmark by spending less than we earn. That continues to be the case, whether we're still drawing a paycheck or living off our investments.

@Dicey thanks for the personal finance lesson :rolleyes:

Yeah, I hope the eyeroll about the PF lesson isn't directed at me. Who the fuck doesn't keep accumulating at this stage? It's absolutely effortless. Fucking magic!

Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 12:52:01 PM

So what makes it all real? Instead of just a bunch of numbers on a screen? If I turn off my computer does my NW really exist? Guess our house is real.

Just watching the NW grow over the past year is definitely surreal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 10, 2021, 01:43:35 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 12:52:01 PM

So what makes it all real? Instead of just a bunch of numbers on a screen? If I turn off my computer does my NW really exist? Guess our house is real.

Just watching the NW grow over the past year is definitely surreal.

What your life would be like without it?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 10, 2021, 01:47:31 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 12:52:01 PM

So what makes it all real? Instead of just a bunch of numbers on a screen? If I turn off my computer does my NW really exist? Guess our house is real.

Just watching the NW grow over the past year is definitely surreal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was cleaning out old paper work today.  You know how things get shoved to the back and never see daylight again.  There were printouts from 2004!  WTF.  I filled a huge trashcan with old paperwork that is now useless.  I started working in this building in 1992.  I'm on a quest to find paperwork from the 90s now.  Those papers are worthless.  What's not worthless?  The dollars I invested in1992 that are worth 10 times or more what they were then.  Yes there is inflation loss, but the investments far outpaced inflation.  I've got 22 months left to the finish line.  How did I go from the kid to the old guy?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on July 10, 2021, 01:48:09 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 12:52:01 PM

So what makes it all real? Instead of just a bunch of numbers on a screen? If I turn off my computer does my NW really exist? Guess our house is real.

Just watching the NW grow over the past year is definitely surreal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The shares you own are real.  If you turn iff your computer the shares (and electrons) are still there. When you turn off the lights do your other possessions actually disappear / dematerialize?

The growth definitely feels unreal to me, but it keeps working so no complaints (yes, I have gone through some big stock market falls too).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 02:46:45 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 10, 2021, 01:43:35 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 12:52:01 PM

So what makes it all real? Instead of just a bunch of numbers on a screen? If I turn off my computer does my NW really exist? Guess our house is real.

Just watching the NW grow over the past year is definitely surreal.

What your life would be like without it?

This is actually a loaded question. Because that would mean I would have made completely different life choices in the first place :-)

But that is an excellent answer to put things in perspective!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 02:49:41 PM

Quote from: G-dog on July 10, 2021, 01:48:09 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 12:52:01 PM

So what makes it all real? Instead of just a bunch of numbers on a screen? If I turn off my computer does my NW really exist? Guess our house is real.

Just watching the NW grow over the past year is definitely surreal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The shares you own are real.  If you turn iff your computer the shares (and electrons) are still there. When you turn off the lights do your other possessions actually disappear / dematerialize?

The growth definitely feels unreal to me, but it keeps working so no complaints (yes, I have gone through some big stock market falls too).

Maybe they do, and maybe they rematerialize when the lights come on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 10, 2021, 03:04:48 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 02:49:41 PM

Maybe they do, and maybe they rematerialize when the lights come on.

Schrodinger's Top is in!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on July 10, 2021, 03:31:14 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 10, 2021, 03:04:48 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 02:49:41 PM

Maybe they do, and maybe they rematerialize when the lights come on.

Schrodinger's Top is in!

Excellent! So is Schrödinger’s Bottom.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 10, 2021, 05:16:34 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 10, 2021, 11:08:59 AM

Hmm we're both retired but our 0.69% WR seems to be having a similar effect of actively contributing.

At least during this bull market..:)

Amazing!  You are either well into "and Beyond" territory, or you have your spending much more contained than I do.  Definitely tells me that I have more work to do to get my spending more under control before pulling the RE trigger!  Well done, @Exflyboy !! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 10, 2021, 05:25:49 PM

Quote from: G-dog on July 10, 2021, 03:31:14 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 10, 2021, 03:04:48 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 02:49:41 PM

Maybe they do, and maybe they rematerialize when the lights come on.

Schrodinger's Top is in!

Excellent! So is Schrödinger’s Bottom.

.....at the same time.....   [Sorry, couldn't resist]   :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on July 10, 2021, 05:32:36 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 10, 2021, 05:25:49 PM

Quote from: G-dog on July 10, 2021, 03:31:14 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 10, 2021, 03:04:48 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 02:49:41 PM

Maybe they do, and maybe they rematerialize when the lights come on.

Schrodinger's Top is in!

Excellent! So is Schrödinger’s Bottom.

.....at the same time.....   [Sorry, couldn't resist]   :-)

Exactly!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 11, 2021, 10:35:19 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 12:52:01 PM

So what makes it all real? Instead of just a bunch of numbers on a screen? If I turn off my computer does my NW really exist? Guess our house is real.

Just watching the NW grow over the past year is definitely surreal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think beyond the improvement that may be made possible by this it's the emotional well being.  There is such a thing as a sense of freedom.  Your life itself may not be different on the outside, but when you get to that critical mass, something changes on the inside.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 12, 2021, 10:56:01 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 02:49:41 PM

Quote from: G-dog on July 10, 2021, 01:48:09 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 12:52:01 PM

So what makes it all real? Instead of just a bunch of numbers on a screen? If I turn off my computer does my NW really exist? Guess our house is real.

Just watching the NW grow over the past year is definitely surreal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The shares you own are real.  If you turn iff your computer the shares (and electrons) are still there. When you turn off the lights do your other possessions actually disappear / dematerialize?

The growth definitely feels unreal to me, but it keeps working so no complaints (yes, I have gone through some big stock market falls too).

Maybe they do, and maybe they rematerialize when the lights come on.

What is the sound of one hand clapping, Grasshopper? 

Ok, so it's not the same era as Keep on Truckin', but within spitting distance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 13, 2021, 12:23:32 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 12:52:01 PM

So what makes it all real? Instead of just a bunch of numbers on a screen? If I turn off my computer does my NW really exist? Guess our house is real.

Just watching the NW grow over the past year is definitely surreal.

I think that is one of the things that scares those of us relying solely on FI for 30 years...  Unless we can truly 'stockpile' value in a way that only time can match, then it does seem flimsy to think that our millions will necessarily be a 'wall and moat' that keeps us FI and others that want it bad enough to have to make sacrifices and many be unable to get in...

If the government prints enough money, ultimately FI will come down to 'real assets' like owning our homes, cars (as a shorthand for 'tools'), and the ability to provide economic value to others in exchange for things we don't have an endless supply of such as food/potable water/electricity/fuel/medical care...  hope the US can stay First World enough so that it never comes to that!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 13, 2021, 05:46:41 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 13, 2021, 12:23:32 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 12:52:01 PM

So what makes it all real? Instead of just a bunch of numbers on a screen? If I turn off my computer does my NW really exist? Guess our house is real.

Just watching the NW grow over the past year is definitely surreal.

I think that is one of the things that scares those of us relying solely on FI for 30 years...  Unless we can truly 'stockpile' value in a way that only time can match, then it does seem flimsy to think that our millions will necessarily be a 'wall and moat' that keeps us FI and others that want it bad enough to have to make sacrifices and many be unable to get in...

If the government prints enough money, ultimately FI will come down to 'real assets' like owning our homes, cars (as a shorthand for 'tools'), and the ability to provide economic value to others in exchange for things we don't have an endless supply of such as food/potable water/electricity/fuel/medical care...  hope the US can stay First World enough so that it never comes to that!

Maybe that's why Bill Gates is buying up so much farmland.  (And to think, I was thinking that he was going to open a theme park!) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on July 13, 2021, 08:04:14 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 13, 2021, 05:46:41 PM

Maybe that's why Bill Gates is buying up so much farmland.  (And to think, I was thinking that he was going to open a theme park!)

The Blue Screen of Death is the first ride.  But then you have to reboot your ticket

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 13, 2021, 08:54:23 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 13, 2021, 05:46:41 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 13, 2021, 12:23:32 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 10, 2021, 12:52:01 PM

So what makes it all real? Instead of just a bunch of numbers on a screen? If I turn off my computer does my NW really exist? Guess our house is real.

Just watching the NW grow over the past year is definitely surreal.

I think that is one of the things that scares those of us relying solely on FI for 30 years...  Unless we can truly 'stockpile' value in a way that only time can match, then it does seem flimsy to think that our millions will necessarily be a 'wall and moat' that keeps us FI and others that want it bad enough to have to make sacrifices and many be unable to get in...

If the government prints enough money, ultimately FI will come down to 'real assets' like owning our homes, cars (as a shorthand for 'tools'), and the ability to provide economic value to others in exchange for things we don't have an endless supply of such as food/potable water/electricity/fuel/medical care...  hope the US can stay First World enough so that it never comes to that!

Maybe that's why Bill Gates is buying up so much farmland.  (And to think, I was thinking that he was going to open a theme park!)

My comment is biased by the crazy high home sales prices going on around me matched with the empty roads and office buildings I'm seeing on my way to work...  I'm not complaining that my home is worth a lot more than I ever would have dreamt, but I have to wonder if people just have too much easy money available and a limited supply of worthwhile things to buy.  I'm definitely in that camp :(    I'm not selling my house since I'd have no use for the pile of money I'd get!

I'd be willing to pay twice what I used to for getting the same value I would've received in 2019...  Fingers crossed for our Alaska cruise in August...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 14, 2021, 08:08:39 AM

I'm a big fan of tangible assets, but I'm only comfortable with real estate and a smattering of precious metals.  We have vintage cars and other odds and ends that have gone up in value, but that is just the cherry on top of having something that we enjoy owning.    Upthread someone mentioned Banksy art as a prime asset...how fun... I applaud!   I consider almost everything I own to be worth nearly nothing... it's just to use and enjoy. then donate. 

In the 2008 melt down, a large number of people that I knew that lost their homes had done cash out re-finances.   Many of them had owned for years or decades, and the easy money from an equity line or cash out re-fi was simply too appealing to pass by.   Then they got in trouble.  I can think of a couple examples where the home was in foreclosure, and the yard had an assortment of expensive toys, like boats, RV's, toy haulers, Motorcycles, Jet Skis, etc.  These depreciate.   Their home equity was sitting in the driveway losing value by the day, and they're moving in with their parents.  It was spendthrift behavior on steriods. 

 When we finally succumbed to the allure of easy money, we took out an equity line and started buying rental houses. (Good debt, right?)  Since our rentals start cash flowing as soon as they're rented, it's a viable alternative to a safe withdrawal rate on a portfolio and subject to different market influences.  We aim for a 10% gross yearly rental return, that nets about 8% once the mortgage is paid off.   Our 2008-2012 purchases have seen a monthly rental increase between $500-$1000 each, and could be much higher.   And we keep the asset as it rises in value.   The dollar cost of homes/rents tracks up with inflation, so my cash value goes along for the ride.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 14, 2021, 08:25:44 AM

So do index funds keep up with inflation?  I don't see why not since you are buying a piece of productive facilities somewhere.  Houses keep up with inflation.  Gold is good for it.  Art and old cars seem to go up in price too.  Land goes up.  They aren't making any more of it.  Houses go up.  You can charge more in rent.  What doesn't go up with inflation?

Cash and what they pay you, I guess.  Another SCAM to make working people poor.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 15, 2021, 07:20:07 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 14, 2021, 08:08:39 AM

I'm a big fan of tangible assets, but I'm only comfortable with real estate and a smattering of precious metals.  We have vintage cars and other odds and ends that have gone up in value, but that is just the cherry on top of having something that we enjoy owning.   

Can you tell us about the cars?  I for one am a huge car guy.  Being frugal, I have not done the Hoovies, Ed Bolian, Tavarish kinds of car collections in ginormous garages, but have autocrossed, roadraced and run car shows for everyone from World of Wheels to BMW CCA in my past.  Currently, my son has the fun toy cars (a 2004 Honda S2000 and 2020 Subaru STi) that I get to drive, but I have a serious eye on the new Lotus Emira if dealers don't gouge.

I'm imagining Ferrari 275's or Lamborghini Miuras in your collection.  But heck, an unrusted MGB would interest me (my first road car was an MGB).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 15, 2021, 07:27:20 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 14, 2021, 08:25:44 AM

Land goes up.  They aren't making any more of it.

Might want to rethink that.  It's not been true since at least the 1300s, and that's not counting Mother Nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reclamation_in_the_Netherlands#:~:text=The%20Dutch%20have%20a%20long%20history%20of%20reclamation,polders%20in%20north-west%20Europe%20is%20in%20the%20Netherlands. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reclamation_in_the_Netherlands#:~:text=The%20Dutch%20have%20a%20long%20history%20of%20reclamation,polders%20in%20north-west%20Europe%20is%20in%20the%20Netherlands.)

Dubai is also creating more land.  See the attached aerial photo.

I've landed on airport runways that were on man-made land.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 15, 2021, 08:09:21 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 15, 2021, 07:27:20 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 14, 2021, 08:25:44 AM

Land goes up.  They aren't making any more of it.

Might want to rethink that.  It's not been true since at least the 1300s, and that's not counting Mother Nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reclamation_in_the_Netherlands#:~:text=The%20Dutch%20have%20a%20long%20history%20of%20reclamation,polders%20in%20north-west%20Europe%20is%20in%20the%20Netherlands. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reclamation_in_the_Netherlands#:~:text=The%20Dutch%20have%20a%20long%20history%20of%20reclamation,polders%20in%20north-west%20Europe%20is%20in%20the%20Netherlands.)

Dubai is also creating more land.  See the attached aerial photo.

I've landed on airport runways that were on man-made land.

Sometimes it's good to be wrong.  The next time I hear that phrase, I'll have to laugh.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on July 15, 2021, 09:10:16 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 15, 2021, 07:20:07 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 14, 2021, 08:08:39 AM

I'm a big fan of tangible assets, but I'm only comfortable with real estate and a smattering of precious metals.  We have vintage cars and other odds and ends that have gone up in value, but that is just the cherry on top of having something that we enjoy owning.   

Can you tell us about the cars?  I for one am a huge car guy.  Being frugal, I have not done the Hoovies, Ed Bolian, Tavarish kinds of car collections in ginormous garages, but have autocrossed, roadraced and run car shows for everyone from World of Wheels to BMW CCA in my past.  Currently, my son has the fun toy cars (a 2004 Honda S2000 and 2020 Subaru STi) that I get to drive, but I have a serious eye on the new Lotus Emira if dealers don't gouge.

I'm imagining Ferrari 275's or Lamborghini Miuras in your collection.  But heck, an unrusted MGB would interest me (my first road car was an MGB).

Hmmm, you're asking the wrong one under this roof, but I'll take a stab at it. 

 Hubs is a Ford Guy. 

 1964 1/2 Mustang (supposed to be mine, where are those keys???), plus a newish Shelby Cobra Mustang 50th anniversary edition of some sort.
 Ford Bronco very old.. looks like a jeep.  Supposed to be very valuable now.  Ford Bronco from the late 1970's... one of my favorites to drive. 
 1940 Ford pick up and Coupe and some other 40's... basically a series.
Old Langandorf bread truck-- I like this one too.
Some sorts of old military vehicles that are currently in vogue.   They are big. 
Baja Bug
Everyday vehicles... 2 trucks, a minivan, my CRV, dump truck, vintage tractors. 
A boatload of motorcycles, including lots of old vintage ones.  Mostly running, some need restoring.

Back in the dark ages, before I was married and before we lost beloved family members, my family had half a dozen OSCA Maseratis and a Ferrari 365 GTC 2 +2.   One of the OSCA's was a prototype race car and was sold in in the middle of being restored in pieces/boxes/parts for 200K in the 1980's.  That car is surely worth millions now.  There was only one.  If I owned it, it would definitely count as NW!   Another little Osca touring car was owned by the Prince of Wales, Charles.    My favorite car was the Ferrari 330 Coupe.   Back then they were $17,000... a fortune! 

 I had both a little MG convertible and a very fun Alpha Romeo when I was young, and had many speeding tickets to prove it.   Then I got married, had kids, and entered my minivan soccer mom era. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Visitation on July 15, 2021, 10:39:38 AM

New here to the site...

$2.37M investable assets
$410K real-estate
$300K alternative investments (mineral rights, producing income)

I'm 49, DW is 53.  We've reached FI but I continue to work.   DW left the workforce when our son was born 14 years who has Down Syndrome.

Plan is to work corporate job until ~57 when my son will be 21, shooting for a NW of $5M. 

Post retirement, plan to buy or open a business (which may not be considered retired) that my son could work at to give him a meaningful life...and hopefully cover everyone's healthcare costs.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on July 15, 2021, 11:02:32 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 15, 2021, 09:10:16 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 15, 2021, 07:20:07 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on July 14, 2021, 08:08:39 AM

I'm a big fan of tangible assets, but I'm only comfortable with real estate and a smattering of precious metals.  We have vintage cars and other odds and ends that have gone up in value, but that is just the cherry on top of having something that we enjoy owning.   

Can you tell us about the cars?  I for one am a huge car guy.  Being frugal, I have not done the Hoovies, Ed Bolian, Tavarish kinds of car collections in ginormous garages, but have autocrossed, roadraced and run car shows for everyone from World of Wheels to BMW CCA in my past.  Currently, my son has the fun toy cars (a 2004 Honda S2000 and 2020 Subaru STi) that I get to drive, but I have a serious eye on the new Lotus Emira if dealers don't gouge.

I'm imagining Ferrari 275's or Lamborghini Miuras in your collection.  But heck, an unrusted MGB would interest me (my first road car was an MGB).

Hmmm, you're asking the wrong one under this roof, but I'll take a stab at it. 

 Ford Bronco very old.. looks like a jeep.  Supposed to be very valuable now.  Ford Bronco from the late 1970's... one of my favorites to drive.

Own.  This gets more attention than anything else I’ve ever driven.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on July 15, 2021, 11:15:14 AM

Welcome, @Visitation . That sounds like a very well thought out plan, given your family dynamics.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Visitation on July 15, 2021, 11:26:09 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on July 15, 2021, 11:15:14 AM

Welcome, @Visitation . That sounds like a very well thought out plan, given your family dynamics.

Thank You....

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 15, 2021, 12:56:29 PM

Quote from: Visitation on July 15, 2021, 10:39:38 AM

New here to the site...

$2.37M investable assets
$410K real-estate
$300K alternative investments (mineral rights, producing income)

I'm 49, DW is 53.  We've reached FI but I continue to work.   DW left the workforce when our son was born 14 years who has Down Syndrome.

Plan is to work corporate job until ~57 when my son will be 21, shooting for a NW of $5M. 

Post retirement, plan to buy or open a business (which may not be considered retired) that my son could work at to give him a meaningful life...and hopefully cover everyone's healthcare costs.

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Welcome aboard.   Looks like you guys are doing well.  Some here may scoff at wanting 5 million before retirement. That's very understandable being that you have a special needs son.  He could outlive you by several decades potentially.  I hope you can set up a trust to help him along.  Legacy planning is part of the reason I'm working a little longwer.  I just turned 53 and will be retired just before 55,  if I can hold out that long.  Best of luck.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Visitation on July 15, 2021, 01:06:38 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 15, 2021, 12:56:29 PM

Quote from: Visitation on July 15, 2021, 10:39:38 AM

New here to the site...

$2.37M investable assets
$410K real-estate
$300K alternative investments (mineral rights, producing income)

I'm 49, DW is 53.  We've reached FI but I continue to work.   DW left the workforce when our son was born 14 years who has Down Syndrome.

Plan is to work corporate job until ~57 when my son will be 21, shooting for a NW of $5M. 

Post retirement, plan to buy or open a business (which may not be considered retired) that my son could work at to give him a meaningful life...and hopefully cover everyone's healthcare costs.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

Welcome aboard.   Looks like you guys are doing well.  Some here may scoff at wanting 5 million before retirement. That's very understandable being that you have a special needs son.  He could outlive you by several decades potentially.  I hope you can set up a trust to help him along.  Legacy planning is part of the reason I'm working a little longwer.  I just turned 53 and will be retired just before 55,  if I can hold out that long.  Best of luck.

We have opened an Able account for him which is like a Roth IRA that falls under the 529 education plan rules.  These assets don't count against him in terms of govt benefits (medicaid) and as long as the balance is under $100K, doesn't disqualify for SSI.

Plan is for our remaining assets to go into a Special Needs Trust to support him after were gone with the balance going to his cousin's should he pass.

But since this thread is about the race from $2M to $4M, were about half way there :-)

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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 19, 2021, 11:06:20 AM

Lotta froth being skimmed off our investments by the market today!


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 19, 2021, 01:12:30 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 19, 2021, 11:06:20 AM

Lotta froth being skimmed off our investments by the market today!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Indeed!  Just riding this out; S&P 500 has hit the 50 SMA today.  Let's see if it bounces back.  Its definitely been a brutal 5-6 day run here.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 19, 2021, 03:32:49 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 19, 2021, 01:12:30 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 19, 2021, 11:06:20 AM

Lotta froth being skimmed off our investments by the market today!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Indeed!  Just riding this out; S&P 500 has hit the 50 SMA today.  Let's see if it bounces back.  Its definitely been a brutal 5-6 day run here.....

A pull back was well overdue.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Visitation on July 20, 2021, 06:36:09 AM

If the SP500 hits correction territory,  it will be time for another Roth conversion!  Think defensively and save on taxes!

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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 20, 2021, 07:04:29 AM

Quote from: Visitation on July 20, 2021, 06:36:09 AM

If the SP500 hits correction territory,  it will be time for another Roth conversion!  Think defensively and save on taxes!

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

Lol, I haven't been paying attention, but these posts made me think it's time to fund this year's Roths.

Welcome, Visitation!

Also, her situation is different, but we have a member who uses an Able account and is quite knowledgeable on the suggest. She is @Tami1982, and her journal is here:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/i'm-back!-life-on-a-dime-or-less-than-$25-000-a-year/msg2874923/#msg2874923

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 20, 2021, 11:07:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 19, 2021, 03:32:49 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 19, 2021, 01:12:30 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 19, 2021, 11:06:20 AM

Lotta froth being skimmed off our investments by the market today!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Indeed!  Just riding this out; S&P 500 has hit the 50 SMA today.  Let's see if it bounces back.  Its definitely been a brutal 5-6 day run here.....

A pull back was well overdue.

A very short lived pullback. Yesterday the economy was in trouble due to delta variant (an excuse to sell, I know) but today all is right with the world and the Market bounces back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 20, 2021, 04:25:17 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 20, 2021, 11:07:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 19, 2021, 03:32:49 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 19, 2021, 01:12:30 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 19, 2021, 11:06:20 AM

Lotta froth being skimmed off our investments by the market today!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Indeed!  Just riding this out; S&P 500 has hit the 50 SMA today.  Let's see if it bounces back.  Its definitely been a brutal 5-6 day run here.....

A pull back was well overdue.

A very short lived pullback. Yesterday the economy was in trouble due to delta variant (an excuse to sell, I know) but today all is right with the world and the Market bounces back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For the members of this group this is noise.  I think my accounts dropped 2%.  Then it rallied back today, much of that so called loss.  I think we'll see a 5% or more pullback if the FED ever acts responsibly.  For now the bubble continues to inflate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on July 20, 2021, 09:29:05 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 20, 2021, 04:25:17 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 20, 2021, 11:07:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 19, 2021, 03:32:49 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 19, 2021, 01:12:30 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 19, 2021, 11:06:20 AM

Lotta froth being skimmed off our investments by the market today!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Indeed!  Just riding this out; S&P 500 has hit the 50 SMA today.  Let's see if it bounces back.  Its definitely been a brutal 5-6 day run here.....

A pull back was well overdue.

A very short lived pullback. Yesterday the economy was in trouble due to delta variant (an excuse to sell, I know) but today all is right with the world and the Market bounces back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For the members of this group this is noise.  I think my accounts dropped 2%.  Then it rallied back today, much of that so called loss.  I think we'll see a 5% or more pullback if the FED ever acts responsibly.  For now the bubble continues to inflate.

It's a good group to be in  for sure and even if the markets correct or worse most here will still have spoils on the table, but the market is fueled by xcessive liquidity and over confidence that markets can't ever be negative for more than 3 months.   Buyer beware but this setup can't last forever.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 21, 2021, 07:42:14 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on July 20, 2021, 09:29:05 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 20, 2021, 04:25:17 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 20, 2021, 11:07:16 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 19, 2021, 03:32:49 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 19, 2021, 01:12:30 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 19, 2021, 11:06:20 AM

Lotta froth being skimmed off our investments by the market today!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Indeed!  Just riding this out; S&P 500 has hit the 50 SMA today.  Let's see if it bounces back.  Its definitely been a brutal 5-6 day run here.....

A pull back was well overdue.

A very short lived pullback. Yesterday the economy was in trouble due to delta variant (an excuse to sell, I know) but today all is right with the world and the Market bounces back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For the members of this group this is noise.  I think my accounts dropped 2%.  Then it rallied back today, much of that so called loss.  I think we'll see a 5% or more pullback if the FED ever acts responsibly.  For now the bubble continues to inflate.

It's a good group to be in  for sure and even if the markets correct or worse most here will still have spoils on the table, but the market is fueled by xcessive liquidity and over confidence that markets can't ever be negative for more than 3 months.   Buyer beware but this setup can't last forever.

Hmmmmm - Now where have I read about something like this happening before.

During the 1920s, the U.S. stock market underwent rapid expansion, reaching its peak in August 1929 after a period of wild speculation during the roaring twenties. By then, production had already declined and unemployment had risen, leaving stocks in great excess of their real value. Among the other causes of the stock market crash of 1929 were low wages, the proliferation of debt, a struggling agricultural sector and an excess of large bank loans that could not be liquidated.

Wild speculation - kinda sorta
low production - Manufacturing in US has been slowly waning for a long time
stocks in great excess of real value - You people have told me this
Low Wages - Well,.....yeh
the proliferation of debt - It's credit card city for many people and lots of loans out there
Struggling Agricultural sector - Seems like farmers are always struggling https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/28/coronavirus-hits-already-struggling-us-farmers-with-drop-in-prices.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/28/coronavirus-hits-already-struggling-us-farmers-with-drop-in-prices.html)
Excess large bank loans that could not be liquidated  - Too Big to fail and badly run banks, that was 2008 and they didn't fix it.

History - https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/1929-stock-market-crash (https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/1929-stock-market-crash)

You can worry or just enjoy the sunny days of Summer.  Stock Markets show rapidly increasing slopes right now.  Isn't this money thing always just based on trust?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 21, 2021, 08:25:23 AM

What boggles my mind is how all of the smart people on Wall Street and in Government seem to pretend that Quantitative Easing is still necessary.  Any time the market goes down, the Fed simply shoves hundreds of billions of dollars in to banks and the talking heads come up with some story like 'I guess the worry about the Delta variant was overblown'...  But all one needs to do is simply look at the correlation between QE and the market to see what is really going on.  Just like with Enron and their balance sheet shenanigans, everyone thinks you are a genius and that the good times will never end - until they do.

And it's not as though the Fed is being coy, right on their website (https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/bst_recenttrends.htm), they say -

Quote

The Federal Reserve's balance sheet has expanded and contracted over time.  During the 2007 - 08 financial crisis and subsequent recession, total assets increased significantly from $870 billion in August 2007 to $4.5 trillion in early 2015.  Then, reflecting the FOMC's balance sheet normalization program that took place between October 2017 and August 2019, total assets declined to under $3.8 trillion.  Beginning in September 2019, total assets started to increase.

Um... yeah, a bit of an understatement...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 21, 2021, 08:35:31 AM

Without the $4T cash, I'm guessing that the S&P would still be around 2500...  but I like free money just as much as the next person.  I'm not saying all of this to complain about having about twice the net worth than I should :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on July 21, 2021, 10:21:48 AM

Yeah. I like having twice as much as I should too but not at the expense of having half as much I shouldn't next year or whenever. Fed bs manipulatuon is here to stay and will get bigger and bigger as time goes on and becomes less independent.   

I would just like more normal markets, you know the ones that go up and down, sometimes a lot, bc of of macro elements and co specific elements.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 21, 2021, 07:41:27 PM

Sold my Michigan house, found my Bay Area Rental (It’s only $500 more than I’ve ever allocated for housing).  I hope the market corrects until after I get my house equity, I wouldn’t mind buying a large amount of index funds on sale.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 21, 2021, 10:43:32 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 21, 2021, 07:41:27 PM

Sold my Michigan house, found my Bay Area Rental (It’s only $500 more than I’ve ever allocated for housing).  I hope the market corrects until after I get my house equity, I wouldn’t mind buying a large amount of index funds on sale.

Congrats on finding a place!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: FireLane on July 22, 2021, 08:46:46 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 21, 2021, 07:42:14 AM

Hmmmmm - Now where have I read about something like this happening before.

During the 1920s, the U.S. stock market underwent rapid expansion, reaching its peak in August 1929 after a period of wild speculation during the roaring twenties. By then, production had already declined and unemployment had risen, leaving stocks in great excess of their real value. Among the other causes of the stock market crash of 1929 were low wages, the proliferation of debt, a struggling agricultural sector and an excess of large bank loans that could not be liquidated.

Wild speculation - kinda sorta
low production - Manufacturing in US has been slowly waning for a long time

Pedantic, but this isn't quite true. The U.S. doesn't really make consumer products like appliances or clothes or toys anymore, but our high-tech manufacturing industries are bigger and more profitable than ever. Think pharmaceuticals, aerospace, robotics, medical devices:

https://www.npr.org/2014/10/03/353044962/u-s-manufacturing-a-remembrance-and-a-look-ahead

Quote

So in dollar terms, output is at record levels — worth more than $2 trillion. Back in 1964, remembered as a glorious time in our industrial history, factories generated only about $1.3 trillion in inflation-adjusted dollars.

What's declining is manufacturing employment, because the industry is getting more automated and the low-skilled jobs are moving offshore.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 22, 2021, 09:00:45 AM

Quote from: FireLane on July 22, 2021, 08:46:46 AM

What's declining is manufacturing employment, because the industry is getting more automated and the low-skilled jobs are moving offshore.

Thanks, you beat me to it!

We've also had declining employment in farming yet the US supplies huge amounts of food to the world.   

Declining employment in an industry while simultaneously increasing production is a good thing so long as the displaced workers get as good as, or better, employment in a new line of work.   The reason we have so many people doing so many new things is because we don't need them all on the farms anymore.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 22, 2021, 10:23:35 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 22, 2021, 09:00:45 AM

Quote from: FireLane on July 22, 2021, 08:46:46 AM

What's declining is manufacturing employment, because the industry is getting more automated and the low-skilled jobs are moving offshore.

Thanks, you beat me to it!

We've also had declining employment in farming yet the US supplies huge amounts of food to the world.   

Declining employment in an industry while simultaneously increasing production is a good thing so long as the displaced workers get as good as, or better, employment in a new line of work.   The reason we have so many people doing so many new things is because we don't need them all on the farms anymore.

Old McDonald had a farm.  Now he's selling hamburgers.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 22, 2021, 04:22:50 PM

@Firstlane - The article link was from 2104.  I'm thinking the trends you guys have noted have continued. 

The rich get richer and the poor are unemployed.

It's a good time to be retired.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 22, 2021, 05:39:41 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 22, 2021, 04:22:50 PM

@Firstlane - The article link was from 2104.  I'm thinking the trends you guys have noted have continued. 

The rich get richer and the poor are unemployed.

It's a good time to be retired.

Sure is. The whole US economy is a big game where poor people are encouraged to spend everything they have and then borrow to spend more.

Rich people then get the reward of increasing dividends and stock prices.

The only way to succeed at the game is to do like the rich people do.. Which is exactly what the folks (with modest wealth*) on this forum are doing.


* Modest is < $10m in my estimation.. Of course that would be an insane number to many people in the World.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 22, 2021, 05:46:10 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 22, 2021, 09:00:45 AM

Quote from: FireLane on July 22, 2021, 08:46:46 AM

What's declining is manufacturing employment, because the industry is getting more automated and the low-skilled jobs are moving offshore.

Thanks, you beat me to it!

We've also had declining employment in farming yet the US supplies huge amounts of food to the world.   

Declining employment in an industry while simultaneously increasing production is a good thing so long as the displaced workers get as good as, or better, employment in a new line of work.   The reason we have so many people doing so many new things is because we don't need them all on the farms anymore.

Our company is constructing an over 100 million dollar expansion.  There are many construction jobs being filled, but maybe 4 or 5 permanent jobs.  Automation is why.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 22, 2021, 06:04:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 22, 2021, 05:39:41 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 22, 2021, 04:22:50 PM

@Firstlane - The article link was from 2104.  I'm thinking the trends you guys have noted have continued. 

The rich get richer and the poor are unemployed.

It's a good time to be retired.

Sure is. The whole US economy is a big game where poor people are encouraged to spend everything they have and then borrow to spend more.

Rich people then get the reward of increasing dividends and stock prices.

The only way to succeed at the game is to do like the rich people do.. Which is exactly what the folks (with modest wealth*) on this forum are doing.


* Modest is < $10m in my estimation.. Of course that would be an insane number to many people in the World.

According to Shnugi, using US Household data from 2019, this is the percentile that various household net worths are at in the USA:

    50th Percentile: $   121,760    <-- Median
    75th Percentile: $   404,100
    95th Percentile: $ 2,598,400
    99th Percentile: $11,121,000

So, frankly, claiming that someone who's just a tad shy of being in the 99th percentile -- just the 98.9th percentile instead -- is "modest" wealth is kinda silly.

Anyone with a net worth of $10,000,000 is very rich.     They may not be ultra-rich like Bezos or Buffett but they are very rich.

We're at $3,100,000 and that puts us in the 95.7th percentile.  That's solidly rich. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 22, 2021, 09:32:09 PM

Maybe, it's a good position to be in.  Not a bad way to describe it, "solidly rich."  If you get too much like Jeff Bezos and they start to call it "filthy rich."  I think "solidly rich" people don't get the bad news articles written about them.  I'll bet Jeff Bezos has to have body guards too.  People may want to kidnap him and hold him for ransom to get some of that "filth" of his.  I think "solidly rich" people can still be honest.  I've heard from many people that those "filthy rich" people got there by somewhat nefarious means.   I've never been good at the dishonest thing.

Still, that rocket ship ride would have been fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on July 22, 2021, 10:13:28 PM

Solidly rich anywhere but NY, CA or expensive metro area. Then you are comfortable. There are whole other economies going on in the US.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 23, 2021, 03:22:38 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 22, 2021, 06:04:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 22, 2021, 05:39:41 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 22, 2021, 04:22:50 PM

@Firstlane - The article link was from 2104.  I'm thinking the trends you guys have noted have continued. 

The rich get richer and the poor are unemployed.

It's a good time to be retired.

Sure is. The whole US economy is a big game where poor people are encouraged to spend everything they have and then borrow to spend more.

Rich people then get the reward of increasing dividends and stock prices.

The only way to succeed at the game is to do like the rich people do.. Which is exactly what the folks (with modest wealth*) on this forum are doing.


* Modest is < $10m in my estimation.. Of course that would be an insane number to many people in the World.

According to Shnugi, using US Household data from 2019, this is the percentile that various household net worths are at in the USA:

    50th Percentile: $   121,760    <-- Median
    75th Percentile: $   404,100
    95th Percentile: $ 2,598,400
    99th Percentile: $11,121,000

So, frankly, claiming that someone who's just a tad shy of being in the 99th percentile -- just the 98.9th percentile instead -- is "modest" wealth is kinda silly.

Anyone with a net worth of $10,000,000 is very rich.     They may not be ultra-rich like Bezos or Buffett but they are very rich.

We're at $3,100,000 and that puts us in the 95.7th percentile.  That's solidly rich.

Cool Stats but that number between 75% and 95% while I obviously believe it really stands out. Huge difference.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 23, 2021, 07:25:36 AM

At $2.2 million I consider myself solidly rich, even with living soon in the Bay Area.  Yes my life will look comfortable vs extraordinary, but then when I lived in Rural GA where I was comparatively very Rich, my life didn’t look all that much different.  (Except I could see how much better off I was being upper middle class/rich because I interacted with more people poorer than me)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 07:45:56 AM

There are very few ways we could end up poor or back in the middle class at our amount of wealth, $3.1 million.

We don't owe anyone anything other than the last month's credit cards and an occasional tradesman doing a repair or renovation.   

Our FIRE income is generally higher than our expenses.

We have a diverse set of assets:  farmland in one state, rental properties in another, social security benefits, and a diverse set of stocks and bonds in index funds.

A horrible, lingering illness is the single most likely way it could happen.  If our nation was at all reasonable and had a national health service that problem would simply vanish.   Given that medical bills are the single biggest reason for bankruptcy in the US...

Dementia and becoming victims of elder-abuse fraud would be another.

A complete collapse of our nation.

Having the alt-right fascists take over and having to flee the country plus having our possessions confiscated for having been outspoken opponents of their world view.   I'm sure there's more than one nazi rat-bastard I've interacted with on social media who would put my name on "the list".

That's pretty much it.

That's why I defined my situation as "solidly rich".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 23, 2021, 08:56:08 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 22, 2021, 05:39:41 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 22, 2021, 04:22:50 PM

@Firstlane - The article link was from 2104.  I'm thinking the trends you guys have noted have continued. 

The rich get richer and the poor are unemployed.

It's a good time to be retired.

Sure is. The whole US economy is a big game where poor people are encouraged to spend everything they have and then borrow to spend more.

Rich people then get the reward of increasing dividends and stock prices.

The only way to succeed at the game is to do like the rich people do.. Which is exactly what the folks (with modest wealth*) on this forum are doing.


* Modest is < $10m in my estimation.. Of course that would be an insane number to many people in the World.

Well said, @Exflyboy....and on the topic of what constitutes "rich," I think its as much a state of mind as it is a number.  Granted I'm probably 25-30th percentile compared to others on this thread, but at ~$2.6M, I don't consider myself "rich."  Maybe I will feel different if/when I get to $3M, but I doubt it.   If I crossed over $5M, maybe....but that's too far away for me to be able to feel it.  I thought @pecunia had a great thought on this topic:

From @pecunia:
I think beyond the improvement that may be made possible by this it's the emotional well being.  There is such a thing as a sense of freedom.  Your life itself may not be different on the outside, but when you get to that critical mass, something changes on the inside.


Back to me:
And what is interesting about the Net Worth percentiles is how NW begins to increase exponentially right around the 92nd or 93rd percentile.  With all due respect to all on this thread (again, many of whom have more wealth than me), I don't think it is possible for most of us to fathom the difference between $2-4M and hundreds of millions or even billions.

I'm sure you've heard the analogy before.  1 million seconds is 12 days.  1 billion seconds is 30 years.   Blows my mind every time I see that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BigEasyStache on July 23, 2021, 09:13:03 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 23, 2021, 08:56:08 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 22, 2021, 05:39:41 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 22, 2021, 04:22:50 PM

@Firstlane - The article link was from 2104.  I'm thinking the trends you guys have noted have continued. 

The rich get richer and the poor are unemployed.

It's a good time to be retired.

Sure is. The whole US economy is a big game where poor people are encouraged to spend everything they have and then borrow to spend more.

Rich people then get the reward of increasing dividends and stock prices.

The only way to succeed at the game is to do like the rich people do.. Which is exactly what the folks (with modest wealth*) on this forum are doing.


* Modest is < $10m in my estimation.. Of course that would be an insane number to many people in the World.

Well said, @Exflyboy....and on the topic of what constitutes "rich," I think its as much a state of mind as it is a number.  Granted I'm probably 25-30th percentile compared to others on this thread, but at ~$2.6M, I don't consider myself "rich."  Maybe I will feel different if/when I get to $3M, but I doubt it.   If I crossed over $5M, maybe....but that's too far away for me to be able to feel it.  I thought @pecunia had a great thought on this topic:

From @pecunia:
I think beyond the improvement that may be made possible by this it's the emotional well being.  There is such a thing as a sense of freedom.  Your life itself may not be different on the outside, but when you get to that critical mass, something changes on the inside.


Back to me:
And what is interesting about the Net Worth percentiles is how NW begins to increase exponentially right around the 92nd or 93rd percentile.  With all due respect to all on this thread (again, many of whom have more wealth than me), I don't think it is possible for most of us to fathom the difference between $2-4M and hundreds of millions or even billions.

I'm sure you've heard the analogy before.  1 million seconds is 12 days.  1 billion seconds is 30 years.   Blows my mind every time I see that.

Or, to put it another way:

1 billion is 1,000 millions.

or

1 million is .1% of a billion

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 23, 2021, 09:17:24 AM

All true @BigEasyStache -- but somehow my brain cannot relate to .1% as well as it does the time analogy....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 23, 2021, 10:10:38 AM

For a point of reference I "made" my DW watch the movie "The Queen of Versaille" last night.

The dysfunction that comes with billions of $ and megalomaniac always striving for more. That kind of lifestyle is the complete antithesis of what I want my life to look like but with an approximate NW of $4m+ I could see me being happy with say $25M.

Beyond that its hard to imagine what I would buy.. Private jet maybe?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 10:58:58 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 23, 2021, 10:10:38 AM

For a point of reference I "made" my DW watch the movie "The Queen of Versaille" last night.

The dysfunction that comes with billions of $ and megalomaniac always striving for more. That kind of lifestyle is the complete antithesis of what I want my life to look like but with an approximate NW of $4m+ I could see me being happy with say $25M.

Beyond that its hard to imagine what I would buy.. Private jet maybe?

Not sure I follow your meaning?

You aren't happy at $4m but would be happy at $25m?

Or you're happy at $4m and would still be happy at $25m, but suspect more than that it would become a burden?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 23, 2021, 12:26:52 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 07:45:56 AM

There are very few ways we could end up poor or back in the middle class at our amount of wealth, $3.1 million.

We don't owe anyone anything other than the last month's credit cards and an occasional tradesman doing a repair or renovation.   

Our FIRE income is generally higher than our expenses.

We have a diverse set of assets:  farmland in one state, rental properties in another, social security benefits, and a diverse set of stocks and bonds in index funds.

A horrible, lingering illness is the single most likely way it could happen.  If our nation was at all reasonable and had a national health service that problem would simply vanish.   Given that medical bills are the single biggest reason for bankruptcy in the US...

Dementia and becoming victims of elder-abuse fraud would be another.

A complete collapse of our nation.

Having the alt-right fascists take over and having to flee the country plus having our possessions confiscated for having been outspoken opponents of their world view.   I'm sure there's more than one nazi rat-bastard I've interacted with on social media who would put my name on "the list".

That's pretty much it.

That's why I defined my situation as "solidly rich".

All these quotes could have come straight from my brain SwordGuy.   The health care fear us what keeps me working my soul stealing job.  That fear should not even be possible for someone with over 3 million in net worth. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 23, 2021, 01:13:30 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 10:58:58 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 23, 2021, 10:10:38 AM

For a point of reference I "made" my DW watch the movie "The Queen of Versaille" last night.

The dysfunction that comes with billions of $ and megalomaniac always striving for more. That kind of lifestyle is the complete antithesis of what I want my life to look like but with an approximate NW of $4m+ I could see me being happy with say $25M.

Beyond that its hard to imagine what I would buy.. Private jet maybe?

Not sure I follow your meaning?

You aren't happy at $4m but would be happy at $25m?

Or you're happy at $4m and would still be happy at $25m, but suspect more than that it would become a burden?

Perfectly happy with $4m (and was just as happy at $2M).. Would still be happy at $25M but more than that would be pointless and possibly a burden.

I know of one Widow locally who inherited her Hubby's timber business. This guy had done things like.. Built a new wing on the local hospital. I don't know the value of the estate but I am assuming it was sizable. She once told my Wife that the money was a huge burden to her and basically a full time job just making sure it was going to worthy charitable causes.

So yeah I think I'd stop at $25M..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 02:47:19 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 23, 2021, 12:26:52 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 07:45:56 AM

There are very few ways we could end up poor or back in the middle class at our amount of wealth, $3.1 million.

We don't owe anyone anything other than the last month's credit cards and an occasional tradesman doing a repair or renovation.   

Our FIRE income is generally higher than our expenses.

We have a diverse set of assets:  farmland in one state, rental properties in another, social security benefits, and a diverse set of stocks and bonds in index funds.

A horrible, lingering illness is the single most likely way it could happen.  If our nation was at all reasonable and had a national health service that problem would simply vanish.   Given that medical bills are the single biggest reason for bankruptcy in the US...

Dementia and becoming victims of elder-abuse fraud would be another.

A complete collapse of our nation.

Having the alt-right fascists take over and having to flee the country plus having our possessions confiscated for having been outspoken opponents of their world view.   I'm sure there's more than one nazi rat-bastard I've interacted with on social media who would put my name on "the list".

That's pretty much it.

That's why I defined my situation as "solidly rich".

All these quotes could have come straight from my brain SwordGuy.   The health care fear us what keeps me working my soul stealing job.  That fear should not even be possible for someone with over 3 million in net worth.

Honestly, if $3.1million with no debt can't handle the medical bills, then the paltry few hundred thousand I would be adding to the pile are unlikely to make much difference either.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on July 23, 2021, 04:33:42 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 23, 2021, 10:10:38 AM

For a point of reference I "made" my DW watch the movie "The Queen of Versaille" last night.

The dysfunction that comes with billions of $ and megalomaniac always striving for more. That kind of lifestyle is the complete antithesis of what I want my life to look like but with an approximate NW of $4m+ I could see me being happy with say $25M.

Beyond that its hard to imagine what I would buy.. Private jet maybe?

I will never forget reading an article back in the late 90's or so about a group of Wall Street types who took the same train home to Greenwich CT every night.  They used to ask each other 'what's your number?' (what net worth do you need to have so you can walk away from the game).  Well, as the late 90's went on and asset values exploded, all were meeting their numbers, yet none of them were walking away.  It wasn't so much the OMY phenomenon as much as that their hedonic adaptation was forcing an explosion of their numbers.  When one of them was asked why he didn't quit despite having many millions, he explained, "It's not 'jet money.'"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 23, 2021, 04:55:32 PM

Quote from: jeroly on July 23, 2021, 04:33:42 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 23, 2021, 10:10:38 AM

For a point of reference I "made" my DW watch the movie "The Queen of Versaille" last night.

The dysfunction that comes with billions of $ and megalomaniac always striving for more. That kind of lifestyle is the complete antithesis of what I want my life to look like but with an approximate NW of $4m+ I could see me being happy with say $25M.

Beyond that its hard to imagine what I would buy.. Private jet maybe?

I will never forget reading an article back in the late 90's or so about a group of Wall Street types who took the same train home to Greenwich CT every night.  They used to ask each other 'what's your number?' (what net worth do you need to have so you can walk away from the game).  Well, as the late 90's went on and asset values exploded, all were meeting their numbers, yet none of them were walking away.  It wasn't so much the OMY phenomenon as much as that their hedonic adaptation was forcing an explosion of their numbers.  When one of them was asked why he didn't quit despite having many millions, he explained, "It's not 'jet money.'"

Yup, having already been the owner (and builder) of a high performance piston engined aircraft I can honestly say I do not aspire to anything the flies higher or faster.

In fact I've noticed that the less stuff I own the happier I am.. I sold the airplane and would be quite happy to sell our house/farmette/rentals and live in a van or rent a house in the Winter.

But then.. what is the point of having huge $$ and nothing to spend it on.. OK maybe I'll keep the house and buy a turbo-prop..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on July 23, 2021, 05:45:57 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 23, 2021, 04:55:32 PM

Quote from: jeroly on July 23, 2021, 04:33:42 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 23, 2021, 10:10:38 AM

For a point of reference I "made" my DW watch the movie "The Queen of Versaille" last night.

The dysfunction that comes with billions of $ and megalomaniac always striving for more. That kind of lifestyle is the complete antithesis of what I want my life to look like but with an approximate NW of $4m+ I could see me being happy with say $25M.

Beyond that its hard to imagine what I would buy.. Private jet maybe?

I will never forget reading an article back in the late 90's or so about a group of Wall Street types who took the same train home to Greenwich CT every night.  They used to ask each other 'what's your number?' (what net worth do you need to have so you can walk away from the game).  Well, as the late 90's went on and asset values exploded, all were meeting their numbers, yet none of them were walking away.  It wasn't so much the OMY phenomenon as much as that their hedonic adaptation was forcing an explosion of their numbers.  When one of them was asked why he didn't quit despite having many millions, he explained, "It's not 'jet money.'"

Yup, having already been the owner (and builder) of a high performance piston engined aircraft I can honestly say I do not aspire to anything the flies higher or faster.

In fact I've noticed that the less stuff I own the happier I am.. I sold the airplane and would be quite happy to sell our house/farmette/rentals and live in a van or rent a house in the Winter.

But then.. what is the point of having huge $$ and nothing to spend it on.. OK maybe I'll keep the house and buy a turbo-prop..:)

L-39
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aero_L-39_Albatros

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 23, 2021, 06:29:26 PM

@markbike528CBX I think the L39 might drain my asset accounts in fuel alone..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 24, 2021, 01:04:54 AM

I'm almost happy my eyesight is too poor to be a pilot.  Boats are expensive enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on July 24, 2021, 03:45:54 AM

I think there is a major difference between being Rich and being Rich in life and would much rather have the latter. To have that you need to feel financial secure but not live the life of the lavish. Being happy, being healthy, having real friends and family, some toys and the ability to do most what you want is the real goal at least for me not just a number. And I believe most everyone here feels the same way. I think though some people do lose site of that and or take life out of the equation concentrating to a certain degree to much on a number. Sure I would like to have more but as long as i have the other things and am not willing anymore in my life to give those up to have more and thats what i was doing up until a little over 6 years ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 24, 2021, 04:00:23 AM

I am reminded of the quote "If it floats or flies, rent don't buy" :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ShadowRegent on July 24, 2021, 05:33:26 AM

With recent market gains, I just graduated from the $1-2M thread.

End of year stats:
2010 - ($188,257)
2011 - ($159,240)
2012 - $75,812
2013 - $82,600
2014 - $190,525
2015 - $593,948
2016 - $619,152
2017 - $961,556
2018 - $966,365
2019 - $1,288,725
2020 - $1,616,389
2021 (YTD) - $2,003,017

I never imagined hitting $2M so quickly.  8.5 years ago, I was celebrating a zero net worth!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 24, 2021, 05:51:17 AM

Quote from: ShadowRegent on July 24, 2021, 05:33:26 AM

With recent market gains, I just graduated from the $1-2M thread.

End of year stats:
2010 - ($188,257)
2011 - ($159,240)
2012 - $75,812
2013 - $82,600
2014 - $190,525
2015 - $593,948
2016 - $619,152
2017 - $961,556
2018 - $966,365
2019 - $1,288,725
2020 - $1,616,389
2021 (YTD) - $2,003,017

I never imagined hitting $2M so quickly.  8.5 years ago, I was celebrating a zero net worth!

Nicely done!  Hopefully you are now enjoying that FI feeling!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 24, 2021, 07:53:46 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 24, 2021, 04:00:23 AM

I am reminded of the quote "If it floats or flies, rent don't buy" :-)

Haha - Love it!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 24, 2021, 09:03:37 AM

Quote from: ShadowRegent on July 24, 2021, 05:33:26 AM

With recent market gains, I just graduated from the $1-2M thread.

End of year stats:
2010 - ($188,257)
2011 - ($159,240)
2012 - $75,812
2013 - $82,600
2014 - $190,525
2015 - $593,948
2016 - $619,152
2017 - $961,556
2018 - $966,365
2019 - $1,288,725
2020 - $1,616,389
2021 (YTD) - $2,003,017

I never imagined hitting $2M so quickly.  8.5 years ago, I was celebrating a zero net worth!

Welcome @ShadowRegent !   I'm also relatively new to this group.  Our recent growth rates are similar, although you are doing better than me in 2021YTD....

Invested Assets (in thousands)
2019 - $1,473
2020 - $1,849
YTD2021 - $2,185

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 24, 2021, 09:08:04 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 24, 2021, 07:53:46 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 24, 2021, 04:00:23 AM

I am reminded of the quote "If it floats or flies, rent don't buy" :-)

Haha - Love it!

I know, I think that includes timeshares as well... er.... NOT!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 24, 2021, 09:28:13 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 24, 2021, 09:08:04 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 24, 2021, 07:53:46 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 24, 2021, 04:00:23 AM

I am reminded of the quote "If it floats or flies, rent don't buy" :-)

Haha - Love it!

I know, I think that includes timeshares as well... er.... NOT!

BOAT #breakoutanotherthousand


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 24, 2021, 03:45:32 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 24, 2021, 09:28:13 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 24, 2021, 09:08:04 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 24, 2021, 07:53:46 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 24, 2021, 04:00:23 AM

I am reminded of the quote "If it floats or flies, rent don't buy" :-)

Haha - Love it!

I know, I think that includes timeshares as well... er.... NOT!

BOAT #breakoutanotherthousand

I have rented a whole lotta boats and jet skis in my day, and they get better every year #DazedAndConfused

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: mjr on July 24, 2021, 04:38:21 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 24, 2021, 04:00:23 AM

I am reminded of the quote "If it floats or flies, rent don't buy" :-)

That quote is missing another "f" word, but that's understandable in a civilised forum.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 24, 2021, 07:37:22 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 23, 2021, 10:10:38 AM

For a point of reference I "made" my DW watch the movie "The Queen of Versaille" last night.

The dysfunction that comes with billions of $ and megalomaniac always striving for more. That kind of lifestyle is the complete antithesis of what I want my life to look like but with an approximate NW of $4m+ I could see me being happy with say $25M.

Beyond that its hard to imagine what I would buy.. Private jet maybe?

I will be happy with $25M or $1B, why not happy with more money? I just will not make any efforts to get that $25M. It is not worth my efforts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 24, 2021, 08:29:17 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 24, 2021, 03:45:32 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 24, 2021, 09:28:13 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 24, 2021, 09:08:04 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 24, 2021, 07:53:46 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 24, 2021, 04:00:23 AM

I am reminded of the quote "If it floats or flies, rent don't buy" :-)

Haha - Love it!

I know, I think that includes timeshares as well... er.... NOT!

BOAT #breakoutanotherthousand

I have rented a whole lotta boats and jet skis in my day, and they get better every year #DazedAndConfused

We live on the water, so owning a boat is like just having another car.  We just walk down our dock anytime we like and go out on the lake for as long as we like. 


For reference, our $50K tritoon boat would be paid for after about 100 days of paying for a rental.  (similar boats rent for $600 on weekends & $400 on weekdays + $85 gas fee)   Also, boats don't seem to depreciate as quickly as cars. 


We wouldn't own a boat if we didn't have a home on the water. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 24, 2021, 08:35:27 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 24, 2021, 08:29:17 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 24, 2021, 03:45:32 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 24, 2021, 09:28:13 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 24, 2021, 09:08:04 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 24, 2021, 07:53:46 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 24, 2021, 04:00:23 AM

I am reminded of the quote "If it floats or flies, rent don't buy" :-)

Haha - Love it!

I know, I think that includes timeshares as well... er.... NOT!

BOAT #breakoutanotherthousand

I have rented a whole lotta boats and jet skis in my day, and they get better every year #DazedAndConfused

We live on the water, so owning a boat is like just having another car.  We just walk down our dock anytime we like and go out on the lake for as long as we like. 


For reference, our $50K tritoon boat would be paid for after about 100 days of paying for a rental.  (similar boats rent for $600 on weekends & $400 on weekdays + $85 gas fee)   Also, boats don't seem to depreciate as quickly as cars. 


We wouldn't own a boat if we didn't have a home on the water.

Yep.  We've always lived waterfront.  The boats are almost must have.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 26, 2021, 06:31:53 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 24, 2021, 08:29:17 PM

Also, boats don't seem to depreciate as quickly as cars. 

Maybe if you're comparing to a Maserati or AMG.  Sold my boat bought new all in for about $16k after 4 years for $8k. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 26, 2021, 01:08:05 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 26, 2021, 06:31:53 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 24, 2021, 08:29:17 PM

Also, boats don't seem to depreciate as quickly as cars. 

Maybe if you're comparing to a Maserati or AMG.  Sold my boat bought new all in for about $16k after 4 years for $8k.

We've done pretty good with boat value.  We bought a 23 foot ski boat for $24K, kept it 12 years and sold for $12K.  We bought a 32 foot party barge/pontoon for $25K and 4 years later sold for $28K (recession buy).   Had a 24 foot offshore fishing boat bought for $12,500 and sold for $10,500.   Currently have an 18 foot center console, paid 10K in 2005, still worth $7500.  What eats you up is maintence.   As everyone knows, BOAT means break out another thousand.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 26, 2021, 01:33:50 PM

It looks like I've been underestimating my lump sum payout from my company pension.  A search on the Prudential website shows me a vastly different number than they'd been reporting.  Both numbers are only estimates.  The real number won't be calculated until July 1, 2023 when I'm eligible for retirment. I'm planning to leave May 2023 using PTO until then.  The number I've just seen is almost $250K higher than the current estimated value.  The estimate is over $150K more than I'd expected it to be in July 2023.  It's definitely mood lightening.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 26, 2021, 06:13:34 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 26, 2021, 01:33:50 PM

It looks like I've been underestimating my lump sum payout from my company pension.  A search on the Prudential website shows me a vastly different number than they'd been reporting.  Both numbers are only estimates.  The real number won't be calculated until July 1, 2023 when I'm eligible for retirment. I'm planning to leave May 2023 using PTO until then.  The number I've just seen is almost $250K higher than the current estimated value.  The estimate is over $150K more than I'd expected it to be in July 2023.  It's definitely mood lightening.

Hot dayum!  I get excited when I find a $1,000 error in my favor in my various analyses.   I can only imagine how "mood lightening" $150K must be!   Way to go, @Bateaux !

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 26, 2021, 08:32:45 PM

Local bar has this on the wall:

Two happiest days of a boat owner, "The day you buy the boat and the day you sell the boat!"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 26, 2021, 09:15:26 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 26, 2021, 08:32:45 PM

Local bar has this on the wall:

Two happiest days of a boat owner, "The day you buy the boat and the day you sell the boat!"

My dad likes to think he coined that phrase. Thank god I’m not into boats.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on July 26, 2021, 10:44:22 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 26, 2021, 08:32:45 PM

Local bar has this on the wall:

Two happiest days of a boat owner, "The day you buy the boat and the day you sell the boat!"

I cried the day we sold our first boat and we already had a kayak and a bigger boat. Makes me think the people who like this phrase also like I agree my spouse jokes :(

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 27, 2021, 02:18:33 PM

We just bought an air-filled boat from Aldi for $10.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 27, 2021, 02:45:02 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 27, 2021, 02:18:33 PM

We just bought an air-filled boat from Aldi for $10.

From what I've heard, you'll be miserable until the day you sell it.  ;)  LOL 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 27, 2021, 04:29:53 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 27, 2021, 02:18:33 PM

We just bought an air-filled boat from Aldi for $10.

I bet it’s only worth $8 now that you took it off the lot ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on July 28, 2021, 01:17:19 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 27, 2021, 04:29:53 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 27, 2021, 02:18:33 PM

We just bought an air-filled boat from Aldi for $10.

I bet it’s only worth $8 now that you took it off the lot ;)

Yeah, but it's the maintenance costs that'll kill ya.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 28, 2021, 09:26:50 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 27, 2021, 02:45:02 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 27, 2021, 02:18:33 PM

We just bought an air-filled boat from Aldi for $10.

From what I've heard, you'll be miserable until the day you sell it.  ;)  LOL

We found that we were not allowed to put that boat in the local lake, after we did it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 29, 2021, 06:04:57 AM

So I sold my house, and paid off the mortgage (because I’m now renting).  Got the first equity deposit today, due to my relo benefits, I get to stay in my home until 8/20, but they keep 10% of the equity back in escrow until I’m actually out.  Should be dumping it into the market by the end of the week so I expect the “Top is in”.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 29, 2021, 08:23:50 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 28, 2021, 09:26:50 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 27, 2021, 02:45:02 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 27, 2021, 02:18:33 PM

We just bought an air-filled boat from Aldi for $10.

From what I've heard, you'll be miserable until the day you sell it.  ;)  LOL

We found that we were not allowed to put that boat in the local lake, after we did it.

So you shelled out ten bucks without checking the restrictions?  You must be rich!

Also, our local lake prohibits all watercraft, but that doesn't seem to stop the occasional SUP, kayak, canoe, and RC boat enthusiasts...  as long as it doesn't get out of hand and you know what you're doing, no one rats anyone else out...  just sayin

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 30, 2021, 08:58:24 AM

I may take our little 26 foot sailboat (It's on a trailer not a yacht) out this weekend.  I'm working OT tonight or I'd do it now.  I know, I know.  Quit now and take the boat out.  It's only 22 months now,  I'm patient.  Yesterday was a bad day at work.  Yes it was busy, but that's not why.  I'm going to miss the shit out of some of my co-workers.   Hopefully they will visit us for Florida fun in coming years.  We've got ours, now we're working to be able to give back.  Dicey has inspired me working at the thrift store.  Our favorite place in Florida is the Habitat for Humanity store.  We bought some of our furnishings there as well as some appliances and tools.  I can see a not so long from now me volunteering at the store and on their building projects.
Back to boats.  I'm thinking of selling the 26 foot trailer sailboat for something smaller.  The Florida west coast has active small boat sailing groups.  Their boats are small enough to drag off the beach and row through inland areas.  The cabins are basically a hard dodger or just canvas.  My 26 is both too big and too little.  Too big for the skinny water and too small for multiple people overnight.  I've all but flushed the yacht dreams.   I think I'll get my bare boat certification and rent them where I want to sail.  Let the owner do the maintence and worry about hurricanes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on July 30, 2021, 09:59:53 AM

We loved our trailer sailor for weekend use. However, we did chose not to have a beachable one because we were still a young couple and didn't like the bundling board effect of a centerboard coming into the cabin.

What is a yacht in your opinion? Legally, it is often just a privately owned boat. I like to refer to my 39' sailboat as a yacht. After all, it is mid range of the boats slipped at my yacht club.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 4tify on July 30, 2021, 11:14:49 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 02:47:19 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 23, 2021, 12:26:52 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 07:45:56 AM

There are very few ways we could end up poor or back in the middle class at our amount of wealth, $3.1 million.

We don't owe anyone anything other than the last month's credit cards and an occasional tradesman doing a repair or renovation.   

Our FIRE income is generally higher than our expenses.

We have a diverse set of assets:  farmland in one state, rental properties in another, social security benefits, and a diverse set of stocks and bonds in index funds.

A horrible, lingering illness is the single most likely way it could happen.  If our nation was at all reasonable and had a national health service that problem would simply vanish.   Given that medical bills are the single biggest reason for bankruptcy in the US...

Dementia and becoming victims of elder-abuse fraud would be another.

A complete collapse of our nation.

Having the alt-right fascists take over and having to flee the country plus having our possessions confiscated for having been outspoken opponents of their world view.   I'm sure there's more than one nazi rat-bastard I've interacted with on social media who would put my name on "the list".

That's pretty much it.

That's why I defined my situation as "solidly rich".

All these quotes could have come straight from my brain SwordGuy.   The health care fear us what keeps me working my soul stealing job.  That fear should not even be possible for someone with over 3 million in net worth.

Honestly, if $3.1million with no debt can't handle the medical bills, then the paltry few hundred thousand I would be adding to the pile are unlikely to make much difference either.   

I have (fortunately) never seen anyone go bankrupt from medical care. Isn't that what insurance is for? At what NW is a person finally free of that fear?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 30, 2021, 11:58:35 AM

Quote from: 4tify on July 30, 2021, 11:14:49 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 02:47:19 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 23, 2021, 12:26:52 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 07:45:56 AM

There are very few ways we could end up poor or back in the middle class at our amount of wealth, $3.1 million.

We don't owe anyone anything other than the last month's credit cards and an occasional tradesman doing a repair or renovation.   

Our FIRE income is generally higher than our expenses.

We have a diverse set of assets:  farmland in one state, rental properties in another, social security benefits, and a diverse set of stocks and bonds in index funds.

A horrible, lingering illness is the single most likely way it could happen.  If our nation was at all reasonable and had a national health service that problem would simply vanish.   Given that medical bills are the single biggest reason for bankruptcy in the US...

Dementia and becoming victims of elder-abuse fraud would be another.

A complete collapse of our nation.

Having the alt-right fascists take over and having to flee the country plus having our possessions confiscated for having been outspoken opponents of their world view.   I'm sure there's more than one nazi rat-bastard I've interacted with on social media who would put my name on "the list".

That's pretty much it.

That's why I defined my situation as "solidly rich".

All these quotes could have come straight from my brain SwordGuy.   The health care fear us what keeps me working my soul stealing job.  That fear should not even be possible for someone with over 3 million in net worth.

Honestly, if $3.1million with no debt can't handle the medical bills, then the paltry few hundred thousand I would be adding to the pile are unlikely to make much difference either.   

I have (fortunately) never seen anyone go bankrupt from medical care. Isn't that what insurance is for? At what NW is a person finally free of that fear?

I have.   Workmen's comp claim that was slowed down, obfuscated, fought, etc.   Family finally went broke.

A high school friend's wife got Covid bad.  Costs were about $180k.

I know people who need medicine that costs them $2k a month.

Insurance doesn't cover everything.  If it does cover it, it may only cover it "some" of the time.   And, of course, it may only cover some of the cost while you take it, too.   And, of course, there may be a lifetime cap on coverage.

Insurance companies have lots of tricks to minimize the potential cost of a very expensive illness to them -- and thus transfer the costs to the insured.    And, of course, they've put money in the pockets of legislators to let them get away with it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 30, 2021, 12:34:25 PM

Quote from: ixtap on July 30, 2021, 09:59:53 AM

We loved our trailer sailor for weekend use. However, we did chose not to have a beachable one because we were still a young couple and didn't like the bundling board effect of a centerboard coming into the cabin.

What is a yacht in your opinion? Legally, it is often just a privately owned boat. I like to refer to my 39' sailboat as a yacht. After all, it is mid range of the boats slipped at my yacht club.

You definitely have a yacht.  I'd say 35+ feet and well equipped for living aboard is a yacht.  I don't want pets, boats or dwellings that would prevent spontaneous travel/vacations for at least a few years into FIRE.  We're inland about 11 miles in Florida from the nearest Gulf of Mexico marina, we could have a true yacht there. Here in Louisiana we're waterfront, but bridges and shoals prevent higher than 22 feet vertical or 5 feet draft vessels up the river this far.  Thus the stepable mast and trailer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 30, 2021, 12:38:47 PM

Quote from: Ockhamist on July 30, 2021, 12:10:34 PM

Quote from: 4tify on July 30, 2021, 11:14:49 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 02:47:19 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 23, 2021, 12:26:52 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 07:45:56 AM

There are very few ways we could end up poor or back in the middle class at our amount of wealth, $3.1 million.

We don't owe anyone anything other than the last month's credit cards and an occasional tradesman doing a repair or renovation.   

Our FIRE income is generally higher than our expenses.

We have a diverse set of assets:  farmland in one state, rental properties in another, social security benefits, and a diverse set of stocks and bonds in index funds.

A horrible, lingering illness is the single most likely way it could happen.  If our nation was at all reasonable and had a national health service that problem would simply vanish.   Given that medical bills are the single biggest reason for bankruptcy in the US...

Dementia and becoming victims of elder-abuse fraud would be another.

A complete collapse of our nation.

Having the alt-right fascists take over and having to flee the country plus having our possessions confiscated for having been outspoken opponents of their world view.   I'm sure there's more than one nazi rat-bastard I've interacted with on social media who would put my name on "the list".

That's pretty much it.

That's why I defined my situation as "solidly rich".

All these quotes could have come straight from my brain SwordGuy.   The health care fear us what keeps me working my soul stealing job.  That fear should not even be possible for someone with over 3 million in net worth.

Honestly, if $3.1million with no debt can't handle the medical bills, then the paltry few hundred thousand I would be adding to the pile are unlikely to make much difference either.   

I have (fortunately) never seen anyone go bankrupt from medical care. Isn't that what insurance is for? At what NW is a person finally free of that fear?

My dad died of brain cancer in 2007.  Medical bills were over $2 million.  Fortunately he had insurance.  Had he not, he would have died of the medical bills even if he had beaten the cancer.

We've been down the cancer path with our oldest son.   Once you've seen those bills and the length of needed care it's eye opening.   I have no doubts that my wife and I will also need big medical care expenses in the future.  You know your future health a lot better in your 50s.  That's the danger of working too long.  You miss the good years working that you should have enjoyed and all but know the not so distant future coming for you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 31, 2021, 12:07:49 PM

Plus with something like cancer, say you want to see a specialist in another town.  Insurance likely will pay if you need to stay in a hospital bed, but it won’t pay for a hotel room or travel.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 31, 2021, 02:18:25 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 31, 2021, 12:07:49 PM

Plus with something like cancer, say you want to see a specialist in another town.  Insurance likely will pay if you need to stay in a hospital bed, but it won’t pay for a hotel room or travel.

I would doubt it if your Bronze plan says there is no coverage for out of network. In fact I hear all the time of people being transported to an OON hospital for more advanced care, but I know full well the destination hospital is OON and if you're unconscious (likely after an accident) I'm assuming the patient is on the hook for the entire bill?

Anyone know any different?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 31, 2021, 03:12:34 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 31, 2021, 02:18:25 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 31, 2021, 12:07:49 PM

Plus with something like cancer, say you want to see a specialist in another town.  Insurance likely will pay if you need to stay in a hospital bed, but it won’t pay for a hotel room or travel.

I would doubt it if your Bronze plan says there is no coverage for out of network. In fact I hear all the time of people being transported to an OON hospital for more advanced care, but I know full well the destination hospital is OON and if you're unconscious (likely after an accident) I'm assuming the patient is on the hook for the entire bill?

Anyone know any different?

There is the No Surprises Act that was passed into law recently.  I think it covers emergency/urgent care situations where you're unconscious or the anesthesiologist is OON and things like that.  I think the law is not intended to cover situations where you deliberately choose OON treatment just because it's better care (like going to the Mayo clinic for cancer treatment or something).  Law goes into effect 1/1/2022.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 31, 2021, 03:45:23 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 31, 2021, 03:12:34 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 31, 2021, 02:18:25 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 31, 2021, 12:07:49 PM

Plus with something like cancer, say you want to see a specialist in another town.  Insurance likely will pay if you need to stay in a hospital bed, but it won’t pay for a hotel room or travel.

I would doubt it if your Bronze plan says there is no coverage for out of network. In fact I hear all the time of people being transported to an OON hospital for more advanced care, but I know full well the destination hospital is OON and if you're unconscious (likely after an accident) I'm assuming the patient is on the hook for the entire bill?

Anyone know any different?

There is the No Surprises Act that was passed into law recently.  I think it covers emergency/urgent care situations where you're unconscious or the anesthesiologist is OON and things like that.  I think the law is not intended to cover situations where you deliberately choose OON treatment just because it's better care (like going to the Mayo clinic for cancer treatment or something).  Law goes into effect 1/1/2022.

 I was thinking more along the lines of my Bosses experience with his nationwide employer healthcare.  His wife got breast cancer.  She was treated at MD Anderson, they lived in Virginia.  Insurance did not pay for their travel to Houston or the hotel they stayed at while she was being treated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 31, 2021, 04:27:07 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 31, 2021, 03:45:23 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 31, 2021, 03:12:34 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 31, 2021, 02:18:25 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 31, 2021, 12:07:49 PM

Plus with something like cancer, say you want to see a specialist in another town.  Insurance likely will pay if you need to stay in a hospital bed, but it won’t pay for a hotel room or travel.

I would doubt it if your Bronze plan says there is no coverage for out of network. In fact I hear all the time of people being transported to an OON hospital for more advanced care, but I know full well the destination hospital is OON and if you're unconscious (likely after an accident) I'm assuming the patient is on the hook for the entire bill?

Anyone know any different?

There is the No Surprises Act that was passed into law recently.  I think it covers emergency/urgent care situations where you're unconscious or the anesthesiologist is OON and things like that.  I think the law is not intended to cover situations where you deliberately choose OON treatment just because it's better care (like going to the Mayo clinic for cancer treatment or something).  Law goes into effect 1/1/2022.

 I was thinking more along the lines of my Bosses experience with his nationwide employer healthcare.  His wife got breast cancer.  She was treated at MD Anderson, they lived in Virginia.  Insurance did not pay for their travel to Houston or the hotel they stayed at while she was being treated.

Right.  My response was more directed at ExFlyBoy's comments immediately above my own.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 31, 2021, 09:05:02 PM

And stuff like this is an example of American exceptionalism.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 31, 2021, 09:55:22 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 31, 2021, 09:05:02 PM

And stuff like this is an example of American exceptionalism.

We have the most expensive healthcare money can buy! Just think, it wasn't so long back that health insurance topped out at $1M, oh and no coverage for pre-existing conditions..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 01, 2021, 03:44:59 AM

My wife recently had a dental emergency which was fully covered but when she was at the dentists, they discovered that a previous dentist had not installed crowns properly. Consequently, the crowns have to be reinstalled. However, dental insurance won't cover this since new crowns are permitted only every five years. We can easily afford to pay for the new crowns of course and then deal with insurance at leisure. Not everyone has this luxury.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 01, 2021, 05:18:20 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 01, 2021, 03:44:59 AM

My wife recently had a dental emergency which was fully covered but when she was at the dentists, they discovered that a previous dentist had not installed crowns properly. Consequently, the crowns have to be reinstalled. However, dental insurance won't cover this since new crowns are permitted only every five years. We can easily afford to pay for the new crowns of course and then deal with insurance at leisure. Not everyone has this luxury.

What do they say is wrong with the crowns? I'd be tempted to get a second opinion. I'd also contact the insurance company to see if they will cover anything, especially if the previous dentist was in-network.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 01, 2021, 07:45:03 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 31, 2021, 09:55:22 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 31, 2021, 09:05:02 PM

And stuff like this is an example of American exceptionalism.

We have the most expensive healthcare money can buy! Just think, it wasn't so long back that health insurance topped out at $1M, oh and no coverage for pre-existing conditions..

Yeh, I guess we have creeping Socialism for medicine.  Oddly enough, I don't think it's creeping fast enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 01, 2021, 07:59:23 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 01, 2021, 05:18:20 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 01, 2021, 03:44:59 AM

My wife recently had a dental emergency which was fully covered but when she was at the dentists, they discovered that a previous dentist had not installed crowns properly. Consequently, the crowns have to be reinstalled. However, dental insurance won't cover this since new crowns are permitted only every five years. We can easily afford to pay for the new crowns of course and then deal with insurance at leisure. Not everyone has this luxury.

What do they say is wrong with the crowns? I'd be tempted to get a second opinion. I'd also contact the insurance company to see if they will over anything, especially if the previous dentist was in-network.

I would be tempted to tell the insurance company to reclaim the money they paid for the shoddy work from the last dentist.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 4tify on August 01, 2021, 02:42:40 PM

Quote from: Ockhamist on July 30, 2021, 12:10:34 PM

Quote from: 4tify on July 30, 2021, 11:14:49 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 02:47:19 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 23, 2021, 12:26:52 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 23, 2021, 07:45:56 AM

There are very few ways we could end up poor or back in the middle class at our amount of wealth, $3.1 million.

We don't owe anyone anything other than the last month's credit cards and an occasional tradesman doing a repair or renovation.   

Our FIRE income is generally higher than our expenses.

We have a diverse set of assets:  farmland in one state, rental properties in another, social security benefits, and a diverse set of stocks and bonds in index funds.

A horrible, lingering illness is the single most likely way it could happen.  If our nation was at all reasonable and had a national health service that problem would simply vanish.   Given that medical bills are the single biggest reason for bankruptcy in the US...

Dementia and becoming victims of elder-abuse fraud would be another.

A complete collapse of our nation.

Having the alt-right fascists take over and having to flee the country plus having our possessions confiscated for having been outspoken opponents of their world view.   I'm sure there's more than one nazi rat-bastard I've interacted with on social media who would put my name on "the list".

That's pretty much it.

That's why I defined my situation as "solidly rich".

All these quotes could have come straight from my brain SwordGuy.   The health care fear us what keeps me working my soul stealing job.  That fear should not even be possible for someone with over 3 million in net worth.

Honestly, if $3.1million with no debt can't handle the medical bills, then the paltry few hundred thousand I would be adding to the pile are unlikely to make much difference either.   

I have (fortunately) never seen anyone go bankrupt from medical care. Isn't that what insurance is for? At what NW is a person finally free of that fear?

My dad died of brain cancer in 2007.  Medical bills were over $2 million.  Fortunately he had insurance.  Had he not, he would have died of the medical bills even if he had beaten the cancer.

Sorry for your loss. Do you know what his out of pocket expenses were for that $2M in bills?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 01, 2021, 02:48:05 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 01, 2021, 07:59:23 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 01, 2021, 05:18:20 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 01, 2021, 03:44:59 AM

My wife recently had a dental emergency which was fully covered but when she was at the dentists, they discovered that a previous dentist had not installed crowns properly. Consequently, the crowns have to be reinstalled. However, dental insurance won't cover this since new crowns are permitted only every five years. We can easily afford to pay for the new crowns of course and then deal with insurance at leisure. Not everyone has this luxury.

What do they say is wrong with the crowns? I'd be tempted to get a second opinion. I'd also contact the insurance company to see if they will over anything, especially if the previous dentist was in-network.

I would be tempted to tell the insurance company to reclaim the money they paid for the shoddy work from the last dentist.

@SwordGuy and @Dicey - we absolutely plan to go after the earlier dentist but it will take time. The point I wanted to make was that even when there is an obvious mistake, getting it fixed takes resources. I feel better for having a buffer for dealing with such situations.

[Fixed formatting]

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on August 01, 2021, 09:33:07 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$ *

* Sold one property and started renovating another, gold up a little bit, crypto's up, invested a bit more money into ETF so that mid month I had exactly the same amount in ETF as I had in crypto's, but since then crypto's have increased and ETF is still the same hence the difference in the %.

August: planning to buy some more gold and keep on renovating the property which hopefully would be done by the end of the year, going to cost about 70k$ and hoping to rent it out January latest.

721 days to Fire.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 02, 2021, 06:36:18 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on August 01, 2021, 09:33:07 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$ *

* Sold one property and started renovating another, gold up a little bit, crypto's up, invested a bit more money into ETF so that mid month I had exactly the same amount in ETF as I had in crypto's, but since then crypto's have increased and ETF is still the same hence the difference in the %.

August: planning to buy some more gold and keep on renovating the property which hopefully would be done by the end of the year, going to cost about 70k$ and hoping to rent it out January latest.

721 days to Fire.

Wow!  You must have the SISU thing working for you!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MishMash on August 02, 2021, 07:08:22 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 26, 2021, 01:08:05 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 26, 2021, 06:31:53 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 24, 2021, 08:29:17 PM

Also, boats don't seem to depreciate as quickly as cars. 

Maybe if you're comparing to a Maserati or AMG.  Sold my boat bought new all in for about $16k after 4 years for $8k.

We've done pretty good with boat value.  We bought a 23 foot ski boat for $24K, kept it 12 years and sold for $12K.  We bought a 32 foot party barge/pontoon for $25K and 4 years later sold for $28K (recession buy).   Had a 24 foot offshore fishing boat bought for $12,500 and sold for $10,500.   Currently have an 18 foot center console, paid 10K in 2005, still worth $7500.  What eats you up is maintence.   As everyone knows, BOAT means break out another thousand.

Oh yea, took delivery of our 28 ft in March.  So far the Minn Kota has died twice, lost an anchor and chain this past weekend (current was RIPPING, so couldn’t dive to retrieve), spent about 3k on engine maintenance, plus all the stuff needed after purchasing said boat for 165k.

I did NOT want a boat, but it was the husbands dream, and he’s tolerated my FIRE stashing for eons so once we moved to FL, we compromised and he got it.  Mostly COVID restrictions wore me down lol.  It’s not a cheap hobby by any means, but DH is 3 years out from Military retirement (he hits his 20 in a week woot! So health care and pension are secured).  And we are sitting at about 2.5 after paying cash for the boat, not including his pension of about 6k a month by the time he retires. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on August 02, 2021, 09:41:04 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 02, 2021, 06:36:18 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on August 01, 2021, 09:33:07 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$ *

* Sold one property and started renovating another, gold up a little bit, crypto's up, invested a bit more money into ETF so that mid month I had exactly the same amount in ETF as I had in crypto's, but since then crypto's have increased and ETF is still the same hence the difference in the %.

August: planning to buy some more gold and keep on renovating the property which hopefully would be done by the end of the year, going to cost about 70k$ and hoping to rent it out January latest.

721 days to Fire.

Wow!  You must have the SISU thing working for you!

SISU is always in me =D

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: trashtalk on August 03, 2021, 08:31:30 PM

We had a nice household finance meeting today and it looks like we are closer to the end than the beginning of this race.

The last five years have been good to us and we’re up about a million over that period of time, which is nice. We probably need to up our cash reserves but equities and real estate are rock solid.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 04, 2021, 05:04:53 AM

Mmm, bit coin scammer in the morning.

In other news, I got in a huge argument with my boss (who thinks it’s perfectly reasonable to ask me to spend 9 of the last 17 days before I move in another state) which ended with me saying fuck you, I’m taking leave for the rest of the day you can write me up AWOL, oh and I’m not going on the trip.  I just can’t even.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 04, 2021, 08:34:01 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 04, 2021, 05:04:53 AM

Mmm, bit coin scammer in the morning.

In other news, I got in a huge argument with my boss (who thinks it’s perfectly reasonable to ask me to spend 9 of the last 17 days before I move in another state) which ended with me saying fuck you, I’m taking leave for the rest of the day you can write me up AWOL, oh and I’m not going on the trip.  I just can’t even.

Just sayin' - Don't burn your bridges.  I've been down that road and it became a rocky one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on August 04, 2021, 09:20:36 PM

Quote from: trashtalk on August 03, 2021, 08:31:30 PM

We had a nice household finance meeting today and it looks like we are closer to the end than the beginning of this race.

The last five years have been good to us and we’re up about a million over that period of time, which is nice. We probably need to up our cash reserves but equities and real estate are rock solid.

Congrats, @trashtalk!  Well done!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 05, 2021, 03:32:48 AM

Boats this year like anything have been nuts. Plenty of people on our Lake Sold mostly their second boats they had for a few years and in the worse case broke even. I have notice like houses on the lake that have gone up of late the selling is slowing and more stuff is hitting the market. I have a Fishing boat which is our second boat I dont need anymore and last year I would of got double I am trying to get for it now. I dropped it 500$ and didnt get a call. Crazy how fast things can swing. But to the point of Boat ownership as someone else said when you live on water its like having another car and so easy to just walk down to the dock/pier get out and go. I look back to towing around and barely using years ago it would of been much cheaper to rent but not when living on the water as we use at least 4xs a week.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 05, 2021, 06:48:59 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 05, 2021, 03:32:48 AM

Boats this year like anything have been nuts. Plenty of people on our Lake Sold mostly their second boats they had for a few years and in the worse case broke even. I have notice like houses on the lake that have gone up of late the selling is slowing and more stuff is hitting the market. I have a Fishing boat which is our second boat I dont need anymore and last year I would of got double I am trying to get for it now. I dropped it 500$ and didnt get a call. Crazy how fast things can swing. But to the point of Boat ownership as someone else said when you live on water its like having another car and so easy to just walk down to the dock/pier get out and go. I look back to towing around and barely using years ago it would of been much cheaper to rent but not when living on the water as we use at least 4xs a week.

This past weekend I had the pleasure of giving a group of DD's fellow Summer interns an afternoon on the water.  It was the first time we've loaded the boat to its maximum capacity of 12 passengers.  It was a rare treat for most of them.  I pulled a few of them around on the tube & then we spent a bit of time swimming, floating, & drinking.  It really felt good being able to share the good life, that we tend to take for granted, with a group of young people that had never spent time on a boat. 


We maximized the "smiles per gallon" that day.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 05, 2021, 08:58:17 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 05, 2021, 06:48:59 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 05, 2021, 03:32:48 AM

Boats this year like anything have been nuts. Plenty of people on our Lake Sold mostly their second boats they had for a few years and in the worse case broke even. I have notice like houses on the lake that have gone up of late the selling is slowing and more stuff is hitting the market. I have a Fishing boat which is our second boat I dont need anymore and last year I would of got double I am trying to get for it now. I dropped it 500$ and didnt get a call. Crazy how fast things can swing. But to the point of Boat ownership as someone else said when you live on water its like having another car and so easy to just walk down to the dock/pier get out and go. I look back to towing around and barely using years ago it would of been much cheaper to rent but not when living on the water as we use at least 4xs a week.

This past weekend I had the pleasure of giving a group of DD's fellow Summer interns an afternoon on the water.  It was the first time we've loaded the boat to its maximum capacity of 12 passengers.  It was a rare treat for most of them.  I pulled a few of them around on the tube & then we spent a bit of time swimming, floating, & drinking.  It really felt good being able to share the good life, that we tend to take for granted, with a group of young people that had never spent time on a boat. 


We maximized the "smiles per gallon" that day.  :)

Sounds like a good time. Similar but different we have a camp on our lake that has been there forever for Boys Club and Girls Club and some how the Masons are involved. Anyhow I volunteered last week to pull on our tube 8-10 year olds for an hour and a half and then then 11-12's. They are mostly intercity kids and to see their smiles made my week. There wasn't one kid that didn't have a blast. And to your point its great to be able to share that with kids and help make great memories for/with them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on August 05, 2021, 02:51:17 PM

That is super cool, @soccerluvof4 ! Sounds like a great experience for you & the kids.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on August 05, 2021, 04:55:41 PM

Quote from: Wile E. Coyote on January 09, 2021, 06:06:23 PM

Not sure if I should be in this thread or not, but here I am.:)

I added up my taxable and retirement accounts, Daughter's 529, and two rental properties today and just squeaked over $2M ($2,000,888 to be precise).  Not sure it will last, but I did want to at least mark the milestone.  People seem to be using only LNW, which I guess would exclude the 529 and rental properties?  I haven't included any equity in my company as that is too speculative at this point.  I doubt that I will ever get to $4M, but I suppose stretch goals never hurt anyone. :-D

It looks like I get to stick around here for a bit longer after all.  We sold the rental properties (YAY!).  Adding up our net cash, taxable and retirement accounts, and our Daughter's 529, we are right at $2.4M.  This doesn't include the equity in our home, which would put is well over $3M!!  It still doesn't include any equity in my company, but maybe someday!  It's hard to believe, but this is what my excel sheet tells me, so it must be right!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 05, 2021, 05:23:27 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 04, 2021, 05:04:53 AM

Mmm, bit coin scammer in the morning.

In other news, I got in a huge argument with my boss (who thinks it’s perfectly reasonable to ask me to spend 9 of the last 17 days before I move in another state) which ended with me saying fuck you, I’m taking leave for the rest of the day you can write me up AWOL, oh and I’m not going on the trip.  I just can’t even.

We had a decent talk the day after.  I got a letter of reprimand but no trip.  So all and all a win.  Maybe we both grow from it because while I was wrong on the fuck you he wasn’t right in his ask.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on August 06, 2021, 07:18:34 AM

Whenever I'm asked to do something at work that I'm not willing to do, I say "yes, no problem" and then I just don't do it.  I'll highlight some other project I'm working on, giving "way more than needed" updates and results.  Every time, the original "thing" they wanted me to do simply is forgotten.  Too many "make work" projects going around.  They forget them because they're of zero value.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 06, 2021, 03:47:41 PM

Quote from: Wile E. Coyote on August 05, 2021, 04:55:41 PM

Quote from: Wile E. Coyote on January 09, 2021, 06:06:23 PM

Not sure if I should be in this thread or not, but here I am.:)

I added up my taxable and retirement accounts, Daughter's 529, and two rental properties today and just squeaked over $2M ($2,000,888 to be precise).  Not sure it will last, but I did want to at least mark the milestone.  People seem to be using only LNW, which I guess would exclude the 529 and rental properties?  I haven't included any equity in my company as that is too speculative at this point.  I doubt that I will ever get to $4M, but I suppose stretch goals never hurt anyone. :-D

It looks like I get to stick around here for a bit longer after all.  We sold the rental properties (YAY!).  Adding up our net cash, taxable and retirement accounts, and our Daughter's 529, we are right at $2.4M.  This doesn't include the equity in our home, which would put is well over $3M!!  It still doesn't include any equity in my company, but maybe someday!  It's hard to believe, but this is what my excel sheet tells me, so it must be right!

I'd say you're here to stay!  That gives you some wiggle room for market decline....and you're still above $2M.  That is, unless you think your daughter's college expenses will be $300K+.   Sadly, that is possible I guess....

Progress painfully slow right now for me.  I guess I just need to keep my head down and keep trying to squirrel away a few bucks here and there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on August 06, 2021, 04:32:07 PM

Quote from: arcturus on August 06, 2021, 03:47:41 PM

Quote from: Wile E. Coyote on August 05, 2021, 04:55:41 PM

Quote from: Wile E. Coyote on January 09, 2021, 06:06:23 PM

Not sure if I should be in this thread or not, but here I am.:)

I added up my taxable and retirement accounts, Daughter's 529, and two rental properties today and just squeaked over $2M ($2,000,888 to be precise).  Not sure it will last, but I did want to at least mark the milestone.  People seem to be using only LNW, which I guess would exclude the 529 and rental properties?  I haven't included any equity in my company as that is too speculative at this point.  I doubt that I will ever get to $4M, but I suppose stretch goals never hurt anyone. :-D

It looks like I get to stick around here for a bit longer after all.  We sold the rental properties (YAY!).  Adding up our net cash, taxable and retirement accounts, and our Daughter's 529, we are right at $2.4M.  This doesn't include the equity in our home, which would put is well over $3M!!  It still doesn't include any equity in my company, but maybe someday!  It's hard to believe, but this is what my excel sheet tells me, so it must be right!

I'd say you're here to stay!  That gives you some wiggle room for market decline....and you're still above $2M.  That is, unless you think your daughter's college expenses will be $300K+.   Sadly, that is possible I guess....

Progress painfully slow right now for me.  I guess I just need to keep my head down and keep trying to squirrel away a few bucks here and there.

Quote from: arcturus on July 24, 2021, 09:03:37 AM

Quote from: ShadowRegent on July 24, 2021, 05:33:26 AM

With recent market gains, I just graduated from the $1-2M thread.

End of year stats:
2010 - ($188,257)
2011 - ($159,240)
2012 - $75,812
2013 - $82,600
2014 - $190,525
2015 - $593,948
2016 - $619,152
2017 - $961,556
2018 - $966,365
2019 - $1,288,725
2020 - $1,616,389
2021 (YTD) - $2,003,017

I never imagined hitting $2M so quickly.  8.5 years ago, I was celebrating a zero net worth!

Welcome @ShadowRegent !   I'm also relatively new to this group.  Our recent growth rates are similar, although you are doing better than me in 2021YTD....

Invested Assets (in thousands)
2019 - $1,473
2020 - $1,849
YTD2021 - $2,185

Your invested assets went up by 50% in two years and that's painfully slow? Bless your heart.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 06, 2021, 07:12:11 PM

ha - understood @jeroly !   I meant over the past 2-3 months its been slow.  And, to your point, I think many (including me) have been spoiled by the market performance over the past 15-16 months and it becomes the expectation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on August 08, 2021, 08:59:27 AM

We have stopped tracking things so closely now that we are sharing at the finish line fort husband. He plans on calling it quits at the end of this year. When we do add it up it always seems to be another “oh my god” moment. The power of compounding is truly spectacular to behold. Then again, he is still earning $ so maybe everything will change once we are deaccumulating.

Speaking of spending money, we bought a house and then have started some renovations. That is a very efficient way to blow a bunch of cash if you have too much sitting around. Round II will be a full kitchen remodel on a timeline I hope to be soon because cooking in the current one is grim. And we need insulation. And maybe a new set of windows. And we want to build a detached garage. Hah

I connected our new mortgage and the house value into personal capital the other day and it spat out $3.9M. This includes 2 529 accounts of about $120k combined that we don’t include in our net worth, but still.
WOW

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 08, 2021, 09:45:22 AM

"It will be great" indeed!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 08, 2021, 10:47:34 AM

I hate to be a "Debby Downer" but despite the market rise I actually lost money on Friday as my bond funds actually dropped quite a bit.

As losses hurt more than the feel good one gets from gains then I assume you can all feel sorry for me..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 08, 2021, 05:28:06 PM

Yes, I need to stop tracking things so closely, I know.  My "contributions" are also concentrated in the first 6 months of the year, so in the second half those slow down considerably and I rely more on the market to continue to make gains.  However, I'm still within line of sight of my year end goals, just obviously would like to do (much) better.   

Sorry @Exflyboy , I understand.  And its been a rough year for my bond funds as well.  I did lighten my allocation there quite a bit earlier this year, so I've not been quite as exposed, but those that I am in -- YTD -- seem to have lost most/all of the gains that they had accumulated over the previous 12 months or so.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on August 08, 2021, 07:11:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 08, 2021, 10:47:34 AM

I hate to be a "Debby Downer" but despite the market rise I actually lost money on Friday as my bond funds actually dropped quite a bit.

As losses hurt more than the feel good one gets from gains then I assume you can all feel sorry for me..;)

I really feel for you.

I sold a big chunk of bonds about two months ago to fund a down payment. Lucky timing on my part.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on August 09, 2021, 01:34:33 PM

We are firmly in the 6s, but I'm expecting that to change come spring. We will owe the IRS a nice chunk from the sale of our vacation house + our standard large sum, and the state of California. That said, our work stock has been doing incredibly well, which has created quite an increase in our equity. It's making it harder to commit to an end date. I'll know more by the EOY, as that's when I'll see my upcoming stock vest schedule. At this point, we're optimizing around the edges.

Our youngest starts high school next week, which is another big milestone. We've committed to staying here until he's done with high school. We may opt to stay longer, but that's our commitment, and it's interesting to start this next phase, with two kids in high school. We have our financial timeline roughly grouped:
-MBM FIREs
-Kids done with K-12, husband can technically tap into 401k, should he choose
-Kids in college
-My husband FIREs
-MBM can tap into 401K
-Social security, if that's still a thing

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on August 10, 2021, 12:36:16 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on August 08, 2021, 08:59:27 AM

We have stopped tracking things so closely now that we are sharing at the finish line fort husband. He plans on calling it quits at the end of this year. When we do add it up it always seems to be another “oh my god” moment. The power of compounding is truly spectacular to behold. Then again, he is still earning $ so maybe everything will change once we are deaccumulating.

Speaking of spending money, we bought a house and then have started some renovations. That is a very efficient way to blow a bunch of cash if you have too much sitting around. Round II will be a full kitchen remodel on a timeline I hope to be soon because cooking in the current one is grim. And we need insulation. And maybe a new set of windows. And we want to build a detached garage. Hah

I connected our new mortgage and the house value into personal capital the other day and it spat out $3.9M. This includes 2 529 accounts of about $120k combined that we don’t include in our net worth, but still.
WOW

Heh, yeah, we're at about the same NW and I've found home renovations is one of the few ways we can take a hit to the NW that can be frequent and large enough to be noticeable if we chose it to be.  New cars are expensive but I frankly don't think of buying the next one for ten years cause I guess its just a point A to point B thing for me..., vacationing can be expensive but we don't see the big deal re: first class so can be kept cheap enough..., vacation home would be expensive but there's no way I want another house to take care of, one's enough, so I'll just rent.... same re: a boat, I'd rather just rent one than have to worry about it.... I like good beer and a fun pub, which is very cheap compared to liking good wine and 5 star restaurants.....  Just about everything else disappears in the daily market moves to the extent the other purchases just don't seem to matter.  I guess we could just start buying way to much stuff every month, but heck, where would I put it?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 10, 2021, 07:57:44 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on August 10, 2021, 12:36:16 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on August 08, 2021, 08:59:27 AM

We have stopped tracking things so closely now that we are sharing at the finish line fort husband. He plans on calling it quits at the end of this year. When we do add it up it always seems to be another “oh my god” moment. The power of compounding is truly spectacular to behold. Then again, he is still earning $ so maybe everything will change once we are deaccumulating.

Speaking of spending money, we bought a house and then have started some renovations. That is a very efficient way to blow a bunch of cash if you have too much sitting around. Round II will be a full kitchen remodel on a timeline I hope to be soon because cooking in the current one is grim. And we need insulation. And maybe a new set of windows. And we want to build a detached garage. Hah

I connected our new mortgage and the house value into personal capital the other day and it spat out $3.9M. This includes 2 529 accounts of about $120k combined that we don’t include in our net worth, but still.
WOW

Heh, yeah, we're at about the same NW and I've found home renovations is one of the few ways we can take a hit to the NW that can be frequent and large enough to be noticeable if we chose it to be.  New cars are expensive but I frankly don't think of buying the next one for ten years cause I guess its just a point A to point B thing for me..., vacationing can be expensive but we don't see the big deal re: first class so can be kept cheap enough..., vacation home would be expensive but there's no way I want another house to take care of, one's enough, so I'll just rent.... same re: a boat, I'd rather just rent one than have to worry about it.... I like good beer and a fun pub, which is very cheap compared to liking good wine and 5 star restaurants.....  Just about everything else disappears in the daily market moves to the extent the other purchases just don't seem to matter.  I guess we could just start buying way to much stuff every month, but heck, where would I put it?

Yes because a bigger house for the stuff is just more space to clean and maintain.  Although I like wine and have been exploring more expensive vintages.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on August 12, 2021, 06:22:04 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on June 11, 2021, 09:34:18 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 21, 2021, 08:08:21 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 09, 2021, 12:40:23 PM

As of close of the markets yesterday, we joined this race for the first time with an aggregate balance of $2.005M across all our savings/retirement/investment accounts.  TNW including home equity is somewhere a little north of $2.4M.

Still holding the line at $2.029M LNW after a couple weeks.  I know we're likely to dip below $2M from time to time, but for now it's fun to see our balances staying (just) above that threshold.

The RE market has been pretty strong here as of late, and SmartZip now estimates our paid-off house at $472k.  Probably unrealistic, but I like how it makes our TNW +/- $2.5M.

LNW was flirting with $2.2M for what seemed like months.  We finally crossed that threshold sometime in the past couple weeks and have stayed there since.  With similar market performance for the rest of the year we could be knocking on the door of $2.5M by end of year, or about $3M TNW.   100k/year @ 4% SWR.  That's nuts.

We crossed $2.3M today.  I don't know why it seemed like such a long time to go from 2.2 to 2.3.  It was only two months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 12, 2021, 06:26:35 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on August 12, 2021, 06:22:04 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on June 11, 2021, 09:34:18 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 21, 2021, 08:08:21 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 09, 2021, 12:40:23 PM

As of close of the markets yesterday, we joined this race for the first time with an aggregate balance of $2.005M across all our savings/retirement/investment accounts.  TNW including home equity is somewhere a little north of $2.4M.

Still holding the line at $2.029M LNW after a couple weeks.  I know we're likely to dip below $2M from time to time, but for now it's fun to see our balances staying (just) above that threshold.

The RE market has been pretty strong here as of late, and SmartZip now estimates our paid-off house at $472k.  Probably unrealistic, but I like how it makes our TNW +/- $2.5M.

LNW was flirting with $2.2M for what seemed like months.  We finally crossed that threshold sometime in the past couple weeks and have stayed there since.  With similar market performance for the rest of the year we could be knocking on the door of $2.5M by end of year, or about $3M TNW.   100k/year @ 4% SWR.  That's nuts.

We crossed $2.3M today.  I don't know why it seemed like such a long time to go from 2.2 to 2.3.  It was only two months.

MPP for sure. Congratulations!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on August 12, 2021, 07:01:17 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 12, 2021, 06:26:35 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on August 12, 2021, 06:22:04 PM

We crossed $2.3M today.  I don't know why it seemed like such a long time to go from 2.2 to 2.3.  It was only two months.

MPP for sure. Congratulations!

Thank you!  And yes, definitely a MPP.  "What, our investment gains were only twice as much as our salaries this year???"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 13, 2021, 12:24:51 AM

Congrats but forgive my ignorance.. What the heck is a MPP?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on August 13, 2021, 12:42:46 AM

Mustashian people problem

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 13, 2021, 05:11:45 AM

I’m back to early stalking the market, at least on my 401k, I’m very close to the double comma club for that account alone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on August 13, 2021, 06:37:36 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 13, 2021, 12:24:51 AM

Congrats but forgive my ignorance.. What the heck is a MPP?

Quote from: deborah on August 13, 2021, 12:42:46 AM

Mustashian Mustachian People Problem

Examples at:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mustachian-people-problems-(just-for-fun)/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MishMash on August 13, 2021, 09:26:45 AM

So today is a day of double celebration.  We hit 2.5m in net worth (despite buying a boat this year) AND the husband has officially hit his 20 year mark in the military! He’s going to do a couple more years since he just promoted so he can retire in grade (for about an extra 1k a month for life) but the pension and healthcare are now officially secured, and with it a pretty fat FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 13, 2021, 09:47:28 AM

Quote from: MishMash on August 13, 2021, 09:26:45 AM

So today is a day of double celebration.  We hit 2.5m in net worth (despite buying a boat this year) AND the husband has officially hit his 20 year mark in the military! He’s going to do a couple more years since he just promoted so he can retire in grade (for about an extra 1k a month for life) but the pension and healthcare are now officially secured, and with it a pretty fat FIRE.

Pension and HC plus $2.5M.. I think you're golden..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 13, 2021, 02:57:29 PM

I like coming back to this thread to hear the excitement and enthusiasm of newly minted multi-millionaires.  For me, at least, the next millions were just a matter of putting in time, which also meant I was getting older.  From the 2nd million forward, it’s all a trade off.  IMHO there is no higher FI than being young and having ER money…. It’s still a high to have ER money at 50, but the amount could be lower and be just as satisfying.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 13, 2021, 04:20:36 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 13, 2021, 02:57:29 PM

I like coming back to this thread to hear the excitement and enthusiasm of newly minted multi-millionaires.  For me, at least, the next millions were just a matter of putting in time, which also meant I was getting older.  From the 2nd million forward, it’s all a trade off.  IMHO there is no higher FI than being young and having ER money…. It’s still a high to have ER money at 50, but the amount could be lower and be just as satisfying.

Yup after FI one is simply exchanging time for money. With a sufficiently low WR time is still consumed while the size of the stash will continue to increase.

Sadly we can't exchange money for time and most of us have no idea how long we have to spend it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 13, 2021, 04:48:55 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 13, 2021, 04:20:36 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 13, 2021, 02:57:29 PM

I like coming back to this thread to hear the excitement and enthusiasm of newly minted multi-millionaires.  For me, at least, the next millions were just a matter of putting in time, which also meant I was getting older.  From the 2nd million forward, it’s all a trade off.  IMHO there is no higher FI than being young and having ER money…. It’s still a high to have ER money at 50, but the amount could be lower and be just as satisfying.

Yup after FI one is simply exchanging time for money. With a sufficiently low WR time is still consumed while the size of the stash will continue to increase.

Sadly we can't exchange money for time and most of us have no idea how long we have to spend it.

On the flip side though, I’m on a cruise with younger folks that probably can’t imagine’FI-ER’ and very old folks (80+), yet here we are able to comfortably afford this at 47…. It’s a great experience, but could easily afford doing something similar next year.  I just hope Covid doesn’t shut it all down for good…. :(

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 13, 2021, 08:39:04 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 13, 2021, 05:11:45 AM

I’m back to early stalking the market, at least on my 401k, I’m very close to the double comma club for that account alone.

I've decided I'm waiting until end of September to do my next *official* check of the accounts.  It does seem like we've been in a bit of a lull in the market lately, maybe its just my perception.  But congrats on nearing that milestone!  Sounds like my 401k is slightly behind your balance, but I'm getting within ~5% of two commas on mine as well.   With some market gains, and some company contributions, I've got line of sight to that milestone possibly by end of year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 14, 2021, 01:19:56 PM

I haven't set down with pen and paper, or yuck, a spreadsheet yet.  But, I need to write out a budget.  It's one of those things we've never needed to do with fairly high income.  We just invested a bunch and spent the rest.  Our finances are a jumbled mess.  I do have some mortgage debt on the Florida house 160K.  Main problem is what to do with the Louisiana property.  It's paid off, but our two 20 something kids need housing.  They both work and the youngest will be married soon.  We're fixing our rental house up for him right now.  Eventually he wants our Louisiana house and the oldest gets the rental house.  For simplicity let's value our home at 200K and the rental at 100K.  I'm undecided whether we rent to them or gift.  The oldest son doesn't make a lot of money and has some medical issues.  So we were thinking of gifting him the rental at 100K value and selling our home to the youngest at 100K.  We're retirement fund rich (3M) and cash poor maybe 50K.  I know Border42 would be pissed, but I really want that mortgage paid off.  It would take all our cash though.  I plan to pull 10K a month starting July 2023.  That's a lot of money per month.  I'm just have a hell of a time predicting our future expenses in this period of inflation.  I'm almost sure we've over saved, but the time is closing in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 14, 2021, 02:07:56 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 14, 2021, 01:19:56 PM

I haven't set down with pen and paper, or yuck, a spreadsheet yet.  But, I need to write out a budget.  It's one of those things we've never needed to do with fairly high income.  We just invested a bunch and spent the rest.  Our finances are a jumbled mess.  I do have some mortgage debt on the Florida house 160K.  Main problem is what to do with the Louisiana property.  It's paid off, but our two 20 something kids need housing.  They both work and the youngest will be married soon.  We're fixing our rental house up for him right now.  Eventually he wants our Louisiana house and the oldest gets the rental house.  For simplicity let's value our home at 200K and the rental at 100K.  I'm undecided whether we rent to them or gift.  The oldest son doesn't make a lot of money and has some medical issues.  So we were thinking of gifting him the rental at 100K value and selling our home to the youngest at 100K.  We're retirement fund rich (3M) and cash poor maybe 50K.  I know Border42 would be pissed, but I really want that mortgage paid off.  It would take all our cash though.  I plan to pull 10K a month starting July 2023.  That's a lot of money per month.  I'm just have a hell of a time predicting our future expenses in this period of inflation.  I'm almost sure we've over saved, but the time is closing in.

Hello @Bateaux - everyone has unique circumstances and so please take this only as a third party view of the scenario you are describing....with only a 10% understanding of the situation, I am sure.   My thought is, you are being extremely generous in this scenario.   I understand your older son has some challenges and so help there may be needed as you have suggested.  With regard to your younger son.  What about selling him your property for $160K and then applying that money to you FL residence?   Still incredibly generous -- you would be effectively giving your son $40K in immediate equity -- and it pays off your FL mortgage.   I would think that a $160K mortgage could be supported by an income of $30-35K relatively easily, assuming no other debt.   And getting a $40K boost from you would be huge for your youngest.

My upper 20s son just purchased a home and I basically provided no financial assistance.  He has many years ahead of him to accumulate assets and I do not.  We have provided for our children (I am guessing you are similar to me) quite well for 20+ years of their lives (better than we had it, huh?).  I'm still shelling out for college/grad school for 2 others, but my goal is that -- when they are out -- I am basically done in most material financial respects (ok, I'm sure I will give in to things like weddings, etc) and then the focus is on providing for ourselves.

Two other thoughts:  (1) In my spreadsheet models, I have assumed a reduction in discretionary expenses as we age, and in the extreme negative scenraios, we could simply manage our expenses down to fit the available cash flow at that time....otherwise, I'd drive myself nuts building on sequential layers of safety margin into my models and I'd never pull the trigger; and (2) I've raised this before and continue to consider and approach where there is a second source of liquidity besides your invested assets (e.g., a untapped home equity loan for simplicity) and when the market is significantly down, you draw on that alternative source of liquidity rather than selling assets that are in correction mode.   This second thought I will admit that I have not fully baked, but it seems like a fantastic way to manage things so that you keep you funds invested during downturns in the market (which tend to be abbreviated -- 6-18 months) and only pull them out when they are at "fair" value.   It seems to me like that's a way to help improve your odds of your money lasting.

Thanks for reading and @Bateaux I say again that my hat is off to you as you are quite generous with your adult children -- I'm now going to make another margarita!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 14, 2021, 03:25:11 PM

Quote from: arcturus on August 14, 2021, 02:07:56 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 14, 2021, 01:19:56 PM

I haven't set down with pen and paper, or yuck, a spreadsheet yet.  But, I need to write out a budget.  It's one of those things we've never needed to do with fairly high income.  We just invested a bunch and spent the rest.  Our finances are a jumbled mess.  I do have some mortgage debt on the Florida house 160K.  Main problem is what to do with the Louisiana property.  It's paid off, but our two 20 something kids need housing.  They both work and the youngest will be married soon.  We're fixing our rental house up for him right now.  Eventually he wants our Louisiana house and the oldest gets the rental house.  For simplicity let's value our home at 200K and the rental at 100K.  I'm undecided whether we rent to them or gift.  The oldest son doesn't make a lot of money and has some medical issues.  So we were thinking of gifting him the rental at 100K value and selling our home to the youngest at 100K.  We're retirement fund rich (3M) and cash poor maybe 50K.  I know Border42 would be pissed, but I really want that mortgage paid off.  It would take all our cash though.  I plan to pull 10K a month starting July 2023.  That's a lot of money per month.  I'm just have a hell of a time predicting our future expenses in this period of inflation.  I'm almost sure we've over saved, but the time is closing in.

Hello @Bateaux - everyone has unique circumstances and so please take this only as a third party view of the scenario you are describing....with only a 10% understanding of the situation, I am sure.   My thought is, you are being extremely generous in this scenario.   I understand your older son has some challenges and so help there may be needed as you have suggested.  With regard to your younger son.  What about selling him your property for $160K and then applying that money to you FL residence?   Still incredibly generous -- you would be effectively giving your son $40K in immediate equity -- and it pays off your FL mortgage.   I would think that a $160K mortgage could be supported by an income of $30-35K relatively easily, assuming no other debt.   And getting a $40K boost from you would be huge for your youngest.

My upper 20s son just purchased a home and I basically provided no financial assistance.  He has many years ahead of him to accumulate assets and I do not.  We have provided for our children (I am guessing you are similar to me) quite well for 20+ years of their lives (better than we had it, huh?).  I'm still shelling out for college/grad school for 2 others, but my goal is that -- when they are out -- I am basically done in most material financial respects (ok, I'm sure I will give in to things like weddings, etc) and then the focus is on providing for ourselves.

Two other thoughts:  (1) In my spreadsheet models, I have assumed a reduction in discretionary expenses as we age, and in the extreme negative scenraios, we could simply manage our expenses down to fit the available cash flow at that time....otherwise, I'd drive myself nuts building on sequential layers of safety margin into my models and I'd never pull the trigger; and (2) I've raised this before and continue to consider and approach where there is a second source of liquidity besides your invested assets (e.g., a untapped home equity loan for simplicity) and when the market is significantly down, you draw on that alternative source of liquidity rather than selling assets that are in correction mode.   This second thought I will admit that I have not fully baked, but it seems like a fantastic way to manage things so that you keep you funds invested during downturns in the market (which tend to be abbreviated -- 6-18 months) and only pull them out when they are at "fair" value.   It seems to me like that's a way to help improve your odds of your money lasting.

Thanks for reading and @Bateaux I say again that my hat is off to you as you are quite generous with your adult children -- I'm now going to make another margarita!

Thoroughly appreciate the input.  The younger child has a much higher income, soon to be in the 6 figures.  The older son has a decent job just not good enough to afford the lifestyle we've provided.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MishMash on August 15, 2021, 05:44:34 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 13, 2021, 09:47:28 AM

Quote from: MishMash on August 13, 2021, 09:26:45 AM

So today is a day of double celebration.  We hit 2.5m in net worth (despite buying a boat this year) AND the husband has officially hit his 20 year mark in the military! He’s going to do a couple more years since he just promoted so he can retire in grade (for about an extra 1k a month for life) but the pension and healthcare are now officially secured, and with it a pretty fat FIRE.

Pension and HC plus $2.5M.. I think you're golden..:)

For sure, most of his coworkers joke about him retiring then returning the next day as a contractor like a majority of folks in his office do.  He gets some strange looks when he says pigs chance in hell, I’m OUT. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 15, 2021, 06:24:04 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 14, 2021, 03:25:11 PM

Quote from: arcturus on August 14, 2021, 02:07:56 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 14, 2021, 01:19:56 PM

I haven't set down with pen and paper, or yuck, a spreadsheet yet.  But, I need to write out a budget.  It's one of those things we've never needed to do with fairly high income.  We just invested a bunch and spent the rest.  Our finances are a jumbled mess.  I do have some mortgage debt on the Florida house 160K.  Main problem is what to do with the Louisiana property.  It's paid off, but our two 20 something kids need housing.  They both work and the youngest will be married soon.  We're fixing our rental house up for him right now.  Eventually he wants our Louisiana house and the oldest gets the rental house.  For simplicity let's value our home at 200K and the rental at 100K.  I'm undecided whether we rent to them or gift.  The oldest son doesn't make a lot of money and has some medical issues.  So we were thinking of gifting him the rental at 100K value and selling our home to the youngest at 100K.  We're retirement fund rich (3M) and cash poor maybe 50K.  I know Border42 would be pissed, but I really want that mortgage paid off.  It would take all our cash though.  I plan to pull 10K a month starting July 2023.  That's a lot of money per month.  I'm just have a hell of a time predicting our future expenses in this period of inflation.  I'm almost sure we've over saved, but the time is closing in.

Hello @Bateaux - everyone has unique circumstances and so please take this only as a third party view of the scenario you are describing....with only a 10% understanding of the situation, I am sure.   My thought is, you are being extremely generous in this scenario.   I understand your older son has some challenges and so help there may be needed as you have suggested.  With regard to your younger son.  What about selling him your property for $160K and then applying that money to you FL residence?   Still incredibly generous -- you would be effectively giving your son $40K in immediate equity -- and it pays off your FL mortgage.   I would think that a $160K mortgage could be supported by an income of $30-35K relatively easily, assuming no other debt.   And getting a $40K boost from you would be huge for your youngest.

My upper 20s son just purchased a home and I basically provided no financial assistance.  He has many years ahead of him to accumulate assets and I do not.  We have provided for our children (I am guessing you are similar to me) quite well for 20+ years of their lives (better than we had it, huh?).  I'm still shelling out for college/grad school for 2 others, but my goal is that -- when they are out -- I am basically done in most material financial respects (ok, I'm sure I will give in to things like weddings, etc) and then the focus is on providing for ourselves.

Two other thoughts:  (1) In my spreadsheet models, I have assumed a reduction in discretionary expenses as we age, and in the extreme negative scenraios, we could simply manage our expenses down to fit the available cash flow at that time....otherwise, I'd drive myself nuts building on sequential layers of safety margin into my models and I'd never pull the trigger; and (2) I've raised this before and continue to consider and approach where there is a second source of liquidity besides your invested assets (e.g., a untapped home equity loan for simplicity) and when the market is significantly down, you draw on that alternative source of liquidity rather than selling assets that are in correction mode.   This second thought I will admit that I have not fully baked, but it seems like a fantastic way to manage things so that you keep you funds invested during downturns in the market (which tend to be abbreviated -- 6-18 months) and only pull them out when they are at "fair" value.   It seems to me like that's a way to help improve your odds of your money lasting.

Thanks for reading and @Bateaux I say again that my hat is off to you as you are quite generous with your adult children -- I'm now going to make another margarita!

Thoroughly appreciate the input.  The younger child has a much higher income, soon to be in the 6 figures.  The older son has a decent job just not good enough to afford the lifestyle we've provided.

I'm guessing your younger son would understand that his older sibling has different needs that mandate a different level of assistance from you.

In some ways, I have a similar situation where I have one son who has his undergraduate degree, but his brother was not at all happy with his undergraduate experience/degree/etc/etc.  So his brother decided he would need to pursue a graduate degree in order to be in a field that was going to be of interest to him.  So I have continued to support (though certainly not fully) my younger son while he pursues his graduate degree.  I recall wondering whether this would create some tension between them as my older son is aware that there is some form of ongoing assistance....but it has not come up as an issue at all.  He has a genuine desire for his brother to be happy, whatever that means for him.  And that has completely overcome any "look what you're doing for him" perspective from him.   Maybe he's just an awesome brother, but I would think you would have a similar situation on your hands should, should you decide to "ration" your assistance according to need.

Glad to hear that it sounds like you've set both up for success and happiness.  Its up to them to realize it, but it sounds like the foundation is there for both of yours, as it is for my two sons (assuming I get the youngest out of grad school <<insert fingers crossed emoji here>>).  My daughter still has a couple years left on her undergrad, but things look very promising there.

And btw, I do not consider $50K of cash to be "cash poor."  My available non-invested cash ebbs and flows with paychecks, etc., but I don't keep more than $10-20K in true cash at any time.   If I had a sudden unplanned cash need, I would either liquidate part of a long-term investment or, if that cannot be done for some reason (or if I don't want to),  I would borrow against an untapped line of credit (mine is secured by my investments themselves, not by my home).  As they say, its easy to borrow money when you don't actually need it!  Keep that in mind!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: billsfan1_2000 on August 15, 2021, 08:06:36 AM

So gang - what would you do?  Age 57, in great health, great family, $4.3M total net worth, with no major future expenses (such as college - all done with that!) on the horizon. 

I had planned to hang up the laptop back on March 1 - however the allure of work from home ended up getting me - so now am nearing the half way point of my latest "OMY".  Meantime I am really, REALLY losing interest in life at Mega Corp.  The stupid meetings, the dumb projects and the endless Powerpoints.......so exhausting.  Sooo - the dilemma - if I resign as of Sep 1 I walk away from 2022 bonus, some shares vesting as of next Feb, after tax cash compensation and 401k match between then and now that amounts to $170k all in.  I look at that statistic daily and it keeps me from writing the resignation e-mail.   Which brings me to my question - am I being silly tying myself to that "addition" to our NW?  I hate so say this but I find myself "wishing away" 6 months of life just to get to March 1......

Any thoughts???

Much love! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 15, 2021, 09:18:05 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on August 15, 2021, 08:06:36 AM

So gang - what would you do?  Age 57, in great health, great family, $4.3M total net worth, with no major future expenses (such as college - all done with that!) on the horizon. 

I had planned to hang up the laptop back on March 1 - however the allure of work from home ended up getting me - so now am nearing the half way point of my latest "OMY".  Meantime I am really, REALLY losing interest in life at Mega Corp.  The stupid meetings, the dumb projects and the endless Powerpoints.......so exhausting.  Sooo - the dilemma - if I resign as of Sep 1 I walk away from 2022 bonus, some shares vesting as of next Feb, after tax cash compensation and 401k match between then and now that amounts to $170k all in.  I look at that statistic daily and it keeps me from writing the resignation e-mail.   Which brings me to my question - am I being silly tying myself to that "addition" to our NW?  I hate so say this but I find myself "wishing away" 6 months of life just to get to March 1......

Any thoughts???

Much love!

We have about $1.6m in stocks and bonds.   A 1% rise in the S&P works out to around $10-11k.  In an average results years I can expect a 10% rise in total, or about $100,000 to $110,000 counting dividends.

I'm guessing you have way more in your stock and bond portfolio than we do.   With a $3m portfolio we would be looking at $300,000 to $330,000 in average gains for doing nothing at all -- no powerpoints, no dumb projects, etc.    At a certain point, you have "enough".   

Are you there yet?   Because if you are, that $170k is meaningless but the boredom and frustration never are.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 15, 2021, 10:31:06 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on August 15, 2021, 08:06:36 AM

So gang - what would you do?  Age 57, in great health, great family, $4.3M total net worth, with no major future expenses (such as college - all done with that!) on the horizon. 

I had planned to hang up the laptop back on March 1 - however the allure of work from home ended up getting me - so now am nearing the half way point of my latest "OMY".  Meantime I am really, REALLY losing interest in life at Mega Corp.  The stupid meetings, the dumb projects and the endless Powerpoints.......so exhausting.  Sooo - the dilemma - if I resign as of Sep 1 I walk away from 2022 bonus, some shares vesting as of next Feb, after tax cash compensation and 401k match between then and now that amounts to $170k all in.  I look at that statistic daily and it keeps me from writing the resignation e-mail.   Which brings me to my question - am I being silly tying myself to that "addition" to our NW?  I hate so say this but I find myself "wishing away" 6 months of life just to get to March 1......

Any thoughts???

Much love!

$170k is a drop in the bucket vs. $4.3M.

If you were terminally ill and could extend your life pain-free for 6 months for the price of $170k, would you do it?

Also: Read "Die With Zero".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 15, 2021, 11:44:48 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on August 15, 2021, 08:06:36 AM

So gang - what would you do?  Age 57, in great health, great family, $4.3M total net worth, with no major future expenses (such as college - all done with that!) on the horizon. 

I had planned to hang up the laptop back on March 1 - however the allure of work from home ended up getting me - so now am nearing the half way point of my latest "OMY".  Meantime I am really, REALLY losing interest in life at Mega Corp.  The stupid meetings, the dumb projects and the endless Powerpoints.......so exhausting.  Sooo - the dilemma - if I resign as of Sep 1 I walk away from 2022 bonus, some shares vesting as of next Feb, after tax cash compensation and 401k match between then and now that amounts to $170k all in.  I look at that statistic daily and it keeps me from writing the resignation e-mail.   Which brings me to my question - am I being silly tying myself to that "addition" to our NW?  I hate so say this but I find myself "wishing away" 6 months of life just to get to March 1......

Any thoughts???

Much love!

You have virtually described the scenario I'm aspiring to, although my target at present is age 56 with $4M NW and $3.25M invested.  I would like to think that when I cross over that threshhold it will be a binary decision.    I suppose if I were a month away from a significant event at that time...e.g., stock vest, etc., I might hold on.   But 6 months feels like I'm on a treadmill, because when you get there, it will only be another 3 months until some other event, and then its only.....  you get the idea.    My 2 cents....but you effectively enjoy today the scenario that I aspire to. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 15, 2021, 12:17:43 PM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on August 15, 2021, 08:06:36 AM

So gang - what would you do?  Age 57, in great health, great family, $4.3M total net worth, with no major future expenses (such as college - all done with that!) on the horizon. 

I had planned to hang up the laptop back on March 1 - however the allure of work from home ended up getting me - so now am nearing the half way point of my latest "OMY".  Meantime I am really, REALLY losing interest in life at Mega Corp.  The stupid meetings, the dumb projects and the endless Powerpoints.......so exhausting.  Sooo - the dilemma - if I resign as of Sep 1 I walk away from 2022 bonus, some shares vesting as of next Feb, after tax cash compensation and 401k match between then and now that amounts to $170k all in.  I look at that statistic daily and it keeps me from writing the resignation e-mail.   Which brings me to my question - am I being silly tying myself to that "addition" to our NW?  I hate so say this but I find myself "wishing away" 6 months of life just to get to March 1......

Any thoughts???

Much love!

Go.  It's not worth it.  Your accounts will be earning up to $1000 a day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 15, 2021, 04:06:45 PM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on August 15, 2021, 08:06:36 AM

So gang - what would you do?  Age 57, in great health, great family, $4.3M total net worth, with no major future expenses (such as college - all done with that!) on the horizon. 

I had planned to hang up the laptop back on March 1 - however the allure of work from home ended up getting me - so now am nearing the half way point of my latest "OMY".  Meantime I am really, REALLY losing interest in life at Mega Corp.  The stupid meetings, the dumb projects and the endless Powerpoints.......so exhausting.  Sooo - the dilemma - if I resign as of Sep 1 I walk away from 2022 bonus, some shares vesting as of next Feb, after tax cash compensation and 401k match between then and now that amounts to $170k all in.  I look at that statistic daily and it keeps me from writing the resignation e-mail.   Which brings me to my question - am I being silly tying myself to that "addition" to our NW?  I hate so say this but I find myself "wishing away" 6 months of life just to get to March 1......

Any thoughts???

Much love!

Let's see the title of this is "Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!"  It appears sir that you have reached that great Beyond.  You can now smile at your Mega Corp companions who have accompanied you on your journey to this great beyond.  Place a hand on their shoulders, give them a smile of understanding and tell them that you hope that someday they too will be able to understand the great beyond.  They will tell fond tales of their adventures in Mega Corp with you in the years to come.  Some of the tales will bring smiles to their faces and some may ring tears to their eyes.

Come join us in your personal Shangri-la.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 15, 2021, 05:32:56 PM

@Bateaux.  As the better off kid.  I don’t need my parents money.  It actually annoys me that my mom keeps trying to give me stuff and more money.  I literally turn around and give the money away, but resent my mom when she says I can afford X (some item/experience) with the money she gave me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 15, 2021, 07:52:59 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 15, 2021, 10:31:06 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on August 15, 2021, 08:06:36 AM

So gang - what would you do?  Age 57, in great health, great family, $4.3M total net worth, with no major future expenses (such as college - all done with that!) on the horizon. 

I had planned to hang up the laptop back on March 1 - however the allure of work from home ended up getting me - so now am nearing the half way point of my latest "OMY".  Meantime I am really, REALLY losing interest in life at Mega Corp.  The stupid meetings, the dumb projects and the endless Powerpoints.......so exhausting.  Sooo - the dilemma - if I resign as of Sep 1 I walk away from 2022 bonus, some shares vesting as of next Feb, after tax cash compensation and 401k match between then and now that amounts to $170k all in.  I look at that statistic daily and it keeps me from writing the resignation e-mail.   Which brings me to my question - am I being silly tying myself to that "addition" to our NW?  I hate so say this but I find myself "wishing away" 6 months of life just to get to March 1......

Any thoughts???

Much love!

$170k is a drop in the bucket vs. $4.3M.

If you were terminally ill and could extend your life pain-free for 6 months for the price of $170k, would you do it?

Also: Read "Die With Zero".

I agree with Dicey and we happen to be in the same position with regards to Networth/health/zero financial commitments.

Having said that would I wait 6 months for an extra $170k's worth of gravy? Yeah I probably would honestly, but I could easily see how I might end up regretting that decision.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 15, 2021, 09:48:09 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 15, 2021, 05:32:56 PM

@Bateaux.  As the better off kid.  I don’t need my parents money.  It actually annoys me that my mom keeps trying to give me stuff and more money.  I literally turn around and give the money away, but resent my mom when she says I can afford X (some item/experience) with the money she gave me.

I probably shouldn't be airing this crap out to you guys.  But, you are the best of the best.  I'm imposing my own thought battles upon you.  I do value the input immensely.   The youngest son is working his tail off with the remodel of the house.  It's just an old fishing camp, but the location can't be beat.  Waterfront property on the bayou and only one lot over from our house.  Things are going really good.  Lumber even dropped in price a little bit.
Thanks friends.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 16, 2021, 03:57:51 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 15, 2021, 07:52:59 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 15, 2021, 10:31:06 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on August 15, 2021, 08:06:36 AM

So gang - what would you do?  Age 57, in great health, great family, $4.3M total net worth, with no major future expenses (such as college - all done with that!) on the horizon. 

I had planned to hang up the laptop back on March 1 - however the allure of work from home ended up getting me - so now am nearing the half way point of my latest "OMY".  Meantime I am really, REALLY losing interest in life at Mega Corp.  The stupid meetings, the dumb projects and the endless Powerpoints.......so exhausting.  Sooo - the dilemma - if I resign as of Sep 1 I walk away from 2022 bonus, some shares vesting as of next Feb, after tax cash compensation and 401k match between then and now that amounts to $170k all in.  I look at that statistic daily and it keeps me from writing the resignation e-mail.   Which brings me to my question - am I being silly tying myself to that "addition" to our NW?  I hate so say this but I find myself "wishing away" 6 months of life just to get to March 1......

Any thoughts???

Much love!

$170k is a drop in the bucket vs. $4.3M.

If you were terminally ill and could extend your life pain-free for 6 months for the price of $170k, would you do it?

Also: Read "Die With Zero".

I agree with Dicey and we happen to be in the same position with regards to Networth/health/zero financial commitments.

Having said that would I wait 6 months for an extra $170k's worth of gravy? Yeah I probably would honestly, but I could easily see how I might end up regretting that decision.

I can see the MMP dilemma BUT I would slightly side as well in collecting the 170k. But that for sure would be it regardless if the market has a significant correction or not.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: trashtalk on August 16, 2021, 07:51:21 AM

If you push through to March 1, think of the whole thing as a slow road to departure.

Even before you reveal your exit plan, make sure your replacements and team are prepped, start clearing out your office, start planning your home setup post-retirement and thinking about a schedule, start detaching emotionally and downshifting by starting to limit your responses to calls and emails on weekends and evenings, declining meetings, not picking up new assignments, etc.

The hardest part will be Aug-Sept-Oct-Nov.

Take two or three weeks off in December. Return in January with the plan in mind, tell people at the end of the month. February will be lots of emotions but also probably quieter than you think, especially once you tell people.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 16, 2021, 11:17:55 AM

Quote from: trashtalk on August 16, 2021, 07:51:21 AM

If you push through to March 1, think of the whole thing as a slow road to departure.

Even before you reveal your exit plan, make sure your replacements and team are prepped, start clearing out your office, start planning your home setup post-retirement and thinking about a schedule, start detaching emotionally and downshifting by starting to limit your responses to calls and emails on weekends and evenings, declining meetings, not picking up new assignments, etc.

The hardest part will be Aug-Sept-Oct-Nov.

Take two or three weeks off in December. Return in January with the plan in mind, tell people at the end of the month. February will be lots of emotions but also probably quieter than you think, especially once you tell people.

Your reply took me back to the time I did this some 7.5 years ago. I absolutely hated the company I worked for and the bosses who treated my team like absolute shyte.. I was their manager.

I had decided I was done just prior to Christmas, but financially it made sense to work to April to fully find my 401k, Roth IRA and HSA.

I went back to work on Jan 4th 2014 and the feeling of dread I had when the alarm went off at 4:30am in preparation to drive the 80 miles to the place I despised was awful.

When I got there, the first thing I learned was that one of my most excellent technicians had his adult Daughter pass away over the Christmas break, she was 28 I believe.

That sense of "WTF is it all about" hit me like a ton of bricks.

It was pretty clear there was no way I was going to make it till April!

Turns out they wer'nt happy with me anyway so they fired me a week and a half later with a 4 month "sign here that you won't sue us" severence check!

It was a most surreal experience.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 16, 2021, 11:35:36 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 16, 2021, 11:17:55 AM

Quote from: trashtalk on August 16, 2021, 07:51:21 AM

If you push through to March 1, think of the whole thing as a slow road to departure.

Even before you reveal your exit plan, make sure your replacements and team are prepped, start clearing out your office, start planning your home setup post-retirement and thinking about a schedule, start detaching emotionally and downshifting by starting to limit your responses to calls and emails on weekends and evenings, declining meetings, not picking up new assignments, etc.

The hardest part will be Aug-Sept-Oct-Nov.

Take two or three weeks off in December. Return in January with the plan in mind, tell people at the end of the month. February will be lots of emotions but also probably quieter than you think, especially once you tell people.

Your reply took me back to the time I did this some 7.5 years ago. I absolutely hated the company I worked for and the bosses who treated my team like absolute shyte.. I was their manager.

I had decided I was done just prior to Christmas, but financially it made sense to work to April to fully find my 401k, Roth IRA and HSA.

I went back to work on Jan 4th 2014 and the feeling of dread I had when the alarm went off at 4:30am in preparation to drive the 80 miles to the place I despised was awful.

When I got there, the first thing I learned was that one of my most excellent technicians had his adult Daughter pass away over the Christmas break, she was 28 I believe.

That sense of "WTF is it all about" hit me like a ton of bricks.

It was pretty clear there was no way I was going to make it till April!

Turns out they wer'nt happy with me anyway so they fired me a week and a half later with a 4 month "sign here that you won't sue us" severence check!

It was a most surreal experience.

It sounds like the bad thing was actually a good thing.  Thanks for sharing that.  I think too many of these bright successful people posting herein just love their jobs, OMY, TMY, TMY+1,......  And, they don't even need the money!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 16, 2021, 11:38:52 AM

My husband has at this moment has the opportunity to pull the FU I got money card but won’t do it and is taking the high road, even though I have told him many times over the weekend I support that move.

He started a news job as a nurse manager at a for profit hospital 8 months ago and the place is a dysfunctional mess, since they are always extremely understaffed (shock). He was hired to oversee 4 units and affect change, but what they really wanted was another nurse, and lo and behold he can’t do both. It came to a head Friday and they asked him to resign.

I said you hate that effin’ place, don’t go back and let them deal with their mess. We have plenty of money for you to take time off and figure out what’s next. But he is insisting on going in the next FOUR WEEKS that he has left.

He’s too nice. Just goes to show how ingrained we are to operate in corporate USA, even when you have the eff you money.


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 17, 2021, 12:25:13 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 16, 2021, 11:38:52 AM

My husband has at this moment has the opportunity to pull the FU I got money card but won’t do it and is taking the high road, even though I have told him many times over the weekend I support that move.

He started a news job as a nurse manager at a for profit hospital 8 months ago and the place is a dysfunctional mess, since they are always extremely understaffed (shock). He was hired to oversee 4 units and affect change, but what they really wanted was another nurse, and lo and behold he can’t do both. It came to a head Friday and they asked him to resign.

I said you hate that effin’ place, don’t go back and let them deal with their mess. We have plenty of money for you to take time off and figure out what’s next. But he is insisting on going in the next FOUR WEEKS that he has left.

He’s too nice. Just goes to show how ingrained we are to operate in corporate USA, even when you have the eff you money.

If it makes you or him feel any better, DW is in a similar place of not needing the money but going in as a long term substitute teacher starting tomorrow.  The demand for teachers and nurses is intense here in Texas, and won't be easing up anytime soon!  She literally gets 3 or more offers a day, and this is before school has even started.  I'm imagining, once kids and teachers are getting Covid (no mask mandate in our school district and relatively low vaccination rate in school-age kids), it'll only get worse...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 17, 2021, 02:37:56 PM

Here is something fun: https://www.reddit.com/r/FinancialPlanning/comments/p4qplj/if_you_had_5_million_dollars_what_would_you_do

It was interesting reading about what others would do if they were in a situation similar to those of people in this group.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on August 17, 2021, 04:45:11 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 17, 2021, 02:37:56 PM

Here is something fun: https://www.reddit.com/r/FinancialPlanning/comments/p4qplj/if_you_had_5_million_dollars_what_would_you_do

It was interesting reading about what others would do if they were in a situation similar to those of people in this group.

I get the sentiment, but most people answered as if they were given $5m of after tax money all at once to do with as they please. While most of us here have accounts that have been built up over time and are socially engineered with rules, stipulations, tax consequences, tied up in real estate, etc. Everyone wants to control your money, and it makes quitting your job a much more complicated decision!


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 17, 2021, 04:52:10 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 17, 2021, 12:25:13 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 16, 2021, 11:38:52 AM

My husband has at this moment has the opportunity to pull the FU I got money card but won’t do it and is taking the high road, even though I have told him many times over the weekend I support that move.

He started a news job as a nurse manager at a for profit hospital 8 months ago and the place is a dysfunctional mess, since they are always extremely understaffed (shock). He was hired to oversee 4 units and affect change, but what they really wanted was another nurse, and lo and behold he can’t do both. It came to a head Friday and they asked him to resign.

I said you hate that effin’ place, don’t go back and let them deal with their mess. We have plenty of money for you to take time off and figure out what’s next. But he is insisting on going in the next FOUR WEEKS that he has left.

He’s too nice. Just goes to show how ingrained we are to operate in corporate USA, even when you have the eff you money.

If it makes you or him feel any better, DW is in a similar place of not needing the money but going in as a long term substitute teacher starting tomorrow.  The demand for teachers and nurses is intense here in Texas, and won't be easing up anytime soon!  She literally gets 3 or more offers a day, and this is before school has even started.  I'm imagining, once kids and teachers are getting Covid (no mask mandate in our school district and relatively low vaccination rate in school-age kids), it'll only get worse...

I just overheard a conversation today. The person was visiting from Texas. Apparently she used to live here. She was rather condescending about how much "freer" things are in Texas vis a vis masks and related Covid protocols. Good for you lady, but please don't expect tears from us when people die unnecessarily. Sheesh.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 17, 2021, 04:55:33 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 17, 2021, 04:45:11 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 17, 2021, 02:37:56 PM

Here is something fun: https://www.reddit.com/r/FinancialPlanning/comments/p4qplj/if_you_had_5_million_dollars_what_would_you_do

It was interesting reading about what others would do if they were in a situation similar to those of people in this group.

I get the sentiment, but most people answered as if they were given $5m of after tax money all at once to do with as they please. While most of us here have accounts that have been built up over time and are socially engineered with rules, stipulations, tax consequences, tied up in real estate, etc. Everyone wants to control your money, and it makes quitting your job a much more complicated decision!

Funny, DH and I just finished a road trip. At one point, I asked him what he'd do with an extra million dollars. After much discussion, he said he'd buy a diesel truck, but only one with a pre-2006 engine. Yeah, that's going to made a real dent, dude. Thing is, it's not a theoretical comversation, exactly...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 17, 2021, 05:39:20 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 17, 2021, 04:45:11 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 17, 2021, 02:37:56 PM

Here is something fun: https://www.reddit.com/r/FinancialPlanning/comments/p4qplj/if_you_had_5_million_dollars_what_would_you_do

It was interesting reading about what others would do if they were in a situation similar to those of people in this group.

I get the sentiment, but most people answered as if they were given $5m of after tax money all at once to do with as they please. While most of us here have accounts that have been built up over time and are socially engineered with rules, stipulations, tax consequences, tied up in real estate, etc. Everyone wants to control your money, and it makes quitting your job a much more complicated decision!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well said!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 17, 2021, 07:29:04 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 17, 2021, 04:55:33 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 17, 2021, 04:45:11 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 17, 2021, 02:37:56 PM

Here is something fun: https://www.reddit.com/r/FinancialPlanning/comments/p4qplj/if_you_had_5_million_dollars_what_would_you_do

It was interesting reading about what others would do if they were in a situation similar to those of people in this group.

I get the sentiment, but most people answered as if they were given $5m of after tax money all at once to do with as they please. While most of us here have accounts that have been built up over time and are socially engineered with rules, stipulations, tax consequences, tied up in real estate, etc. Everyone wants to control your money, and it makes quitting your job a much more complicated decision!

Funny, DH and I just finished a road trip. At one point, I asked him what he'd do with an extra million dollars. After much discussion, he said he'd buy a diesel truck, but only one with a pre-2006 engine. Yeah, that's going to made a real dent, dude. Thing is, it's not a theoretical comversation, exactly...

Smart man.  The diesel engines were less complicated back then. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 17, 2021, 08:14:44 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 17, 2021, 07:29:04 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 17, 2021, 04:55:33 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 17, 2021, 04:45:11 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 17, 2021, 02:37:56 PM

Here is something fun: https://www.reddit.com/r/FinancialPlanning/comments/p4qplj/if_you_had_5_million_dollars_what_would_you_do

It was interesting reading about what others would do if they were in a situation similar to those of people in this group.

I get the sentiment, but most people answered as if they were given $5m of after tax money all at once to do with as they please. While most of us here have accounts that have been built up over time and are socially engineered with rules, stipulations, tax consequences, tied up in real estate, etc. Everyone wants to control your money, and it makes quitting your job a much more complicated decision!

Funny, DH and I just finished a road trip. At one point, I asked him what he'd do with an extra million dollars. After much discussion, he said he'd buy a diesel truck, but only one with a pre-2006 engine. Yeah, that's going to made a real dent, dude. Thing is, it's not a theoretical comversation, exactly...

Smart man.  The diesel engines were less complicated back then.

Yeah, our RV is on the Sprinter platform and everything about it is a pain in the ass. The RV part is awesome, the  eng8ne and chassis, not so much.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 17, 2021, 08:35:17 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 17, 2021, 02:37:56 PM

Here is something fun: https://www.reddit.com/r/FinancialPlanning/comments/p4qplj/if_you_had_5_million_dollars_what_would_you_do

It was interesting reading about what others would do if they were in a situation similar to those of people in this group.

Wow, the question was so poorly worded and clueless that it was difficult to understand exactly what the OP was hoping for.  Financial security?  YOLO?  Real advice on what to do with his/her lottery winnings??

The replies were also quite mundane.  I had a whole batch of popcorn ready, especially after the clueless start, but nary a 'hookers and blow' comment to be found (at least for the upvoted stuff I read)...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 18, 2021, 03:24:33 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 17, 2021, 04:45:11 PM

I get the sentiment, but most people answered as if they were given $5m of after tax money all at once to do with as they please. While most of us here have accounts that have been built up over time and are socially engineered with rules, stipulations, tax consequences, tied up in real estate, etc. Everyone wants to control your money, and it makes quitting your job a much more complicated decision!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thats exactly the big contrast - getting $5M as a windfall is entirely different from earning and saving it over decades.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 18, 2021, 07:16:31 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 18, 2021, 03:24:33 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 17, 2021, 04:45:11 PM

I get the sentiment, but most people answered as if they were given $5m of after tax money all at once to do with as they please. While most of us here have accounts that have been built up over time and are socially engineered with rules, stipulations, tax consequences, tied up in real estate, etc. Everyone wants to control your money, and it makes quitting your job a much more complicated decision!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thats exactly the big contrast - getting $5M as a windfall is entirely different from earning and saving it over decades.

You know - it's a little bit like government project housing.  Money that comes free does not have the same internal worth.  When you put sweat, blood and time into getting that money it is far different.  You watch it more closely.  You take care of it. Your house has taken years to have.  What would a spoiled rich kid do with 5 million dollars, maybe spend it at the Casino.  You guys have great insight.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 18, 2021, 08:32:04 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 18, 2021, 07:16:31 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 18, 2021, 03:24:33 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on August 17, 2021, 04:45:11 PM

I get the sentiment, but most people answered as if they were given $5m of after tax money all at once to do with as they please. While most of us here have accounts that have been built up over time and are socially engineered with rules, stipulations, tax consequences, tied up in real estate, etc. Everyone wants to control your money, and it makes quitting your job a much more complicated decision!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thats exactly the big contrast - getting $5M as a windfall is entirely different from earning and saving it over decades.

You know - it's a little bit like government project housing.  Money that comes free does not have the same internal worth.  When you put sweat, blood and time into getting that money it is far different.  You watch it more closely.  You take care of it. Your house has taken years to have.  What would a spoiled rich kid do with 5 million dollars, maybe spend it at the Casino.  You guys have great insight.

I worked for $3 an hour on farms as a teen.  $3.35 an hour in college.  Now our wealth increases ten times that per hour.  Every hour of every day even if I don't go to work.  I'm still that boy with a shovel.  It's a much bigger shovel.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on August 18, 2021, 09:53:29 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 18, 2021, 07:16:31 AM

Money that comes free does not have the same internal worth.

Complete tangent, but your comment made me wonder if social science could answer exactly what level of work would instill a similar level of worth? Taking the two extremes as a given (though I'd like these verified as well) that "free" things have low worth to humans, and "earned" things have a much higher worth, what could be done to bring the individual worth of "free" things up. Would something as simple as being forced to play a short simple game to get cash or rent assistance do it? Something more complex or complicated? Something completely unrelated to the assistance or benefit, or does it need to be tied directly to it? Would people treat various public goods better if some small, trivial, but universal step or action needed to partake? Just a few musings I thought I'd share in case anyone else has wondered the same.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 18, 2021, 10:57:00 AM

Quote from: PathtoFIRE on August 18, 2021, 09:53:29 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 18, 2021, 07:16:31 AM

Money that comes free does not have the same internal worth.

Complete tangent, but your comment made me wonder if social science could answer exactly what level of work would instill a similar level of worth? Taking the two extremes as a given (though I'd like these verified as well) that "free" things have low worth to humans, and "earned" things have a much higher worth, what could be done to bring the individual worth of "free" things up. Would something as simple as being forced to play a short simple game to get cash or rent assistance do it? Something more complex or complicated? Something completely unrelated to the assistance or benefit, or does it need to be tied directly to it? Would people treat various public goods better if some small, trivial, but universal step or action needed to partake? Just a few musings I thought I'd share in case anyone else has wondered the same.

This is a significant conundrum with UBI.  Economists argue that it is vastly more efficient to just hand out a subsistence level stipend to poverty-stricken groups vs. all the social programs and management currently in place (SNAP, CHIP, WHIP, DIP :)  Folks that want to improve their position will at least have a bootstrap.  But the worry from society is that folks will just be content subsisting while contributing nothing (apparently forgetting the fact that all they are doing now is spending all their time gaming the systems), whereas economists are worried that providing subsistence will further erode the availability of jobs and the 'meaning' work provides for many folks. 

The biased MMM Forum is probably not the place to have a conversation about work providing people with identity and self-worth though... 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 18, 2021, 11:54:16 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 18, 2021, 10:57:00 AM

The biased MMM Forum is probably not the place to have a conversation about work providing people with identity and self-worth though...

What because most of us have spent our (short) working lives trying to get away from our jobs?

Yeah I think thats a reasonable assumption..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on August 25, 2021, 07:43:07 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 15, 2021, 09:18:05 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on August 15, 2021, 08:06:36 AM

So gang - what would you do?  Age 57, in great health, great family, $4.3M total net worth, with no major future expenses (such as college - all done with that!) on the horizon. 

I had planned to hang up the laptop back on March 1 - however the allure of work from home ended up getting me - so now am nearing the half way point of my latest "OMY".  Meantime I am really, REALLY losing interest in life at Mega Corp.  The stupid meetings, the dumb projects and the endless Powerpoints.......so exhausting.  Sooo - the dilemma - if I resign as of Sep 1 I walk away from 2022 bonus, some shares vesting as of next Feb, after tax cash compensation and 401k match between then and now that amounts to $170k all in.  I look at that statistic daily and it keeps me from writing the resignation e-mail.   Which brings me to my question - am I being silly tying myself to that "addition" to our NW?  I hate so say this but I find myself "wishing away" 6 months of life just to get to March 1......

Any thoughts???

Much love!

We have about $1.6m in stocks and bonds.   A 1% rise in the S&P works out to around $10-11k.  In an average results years I can expect a 10% rise in total, or about $100,000 to $110,000 counting dividends.

I'm guessing you have way more in your stock and bond portfolio than we do.   With a $3m portfolio we would be looking at $300,000 to $330,000 in average gains for doing nothing at all -- no powerpoints, no dumb projects, etc.    At a certain point, you have "enough".   

Are you there yet?   Because if you are, that $170k is meaningless but the boredom and frustration never are.

We have a relatively large portfolio - even assuming inflated expense levels, we are probably at a 2.25% SWR - and could probably stop working...but I can't help from feeling uneasy when I read comments like these.

The market doesn't give you average returns year over year, it gives you actuals.  40 years from now we might look back and realize an 8% or 10% return.  Or, it could be more, or less, but year to year, it can vary wildly.  And it's hard to argue against folks that point to the correlations between a) high valuations like we have today and b) lower expected returns.

Undoubtedly, someone will read this that has been investing or invested in the markets for 20+ years.  I hope they weigh in with their perspective.

Personally, as a 41 year old, I didn't have "real" money in the market until 2011/2012, and the markets have been good to us all over that time period.  So, my track record is only 10 years.  If I pull the plug now, i could need to live off my portfolio for 50 years.

i don't post often, and love this group and the optimism they imbue, but when i see folks in other threads talking about buying stocks on margin, or selling their homes to invest in ARK funds, or counting on a 10% return, it makes me uneasy.

I don't think "this time is different" but I do think there are clouds on the horizon.  i suppose that's why i am at a <2.5% SWR...

sorry for the rant, i don't want to be the resident raincloud.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 25, 2021, 08:46:53 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on August 25, 2021, 07:43:07 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 15, 2021, 09:18:05 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on August 15, 2021, 08:06:36 AM

So gang - what would you do?  Age 57, in great health, great family, $4.3M total net worth, with no major future expenses (such as college - all done with that!) on the horizon. 

I had planned to hang up the laptop back on March 1 - however the allure of work from home ended up getting me - so now am nearing the half way point of my latest "OMY".  Meantime I am really, REALLY losing interest in life at Mega Corp.  The stupid meetings, the dumb projects and the endless Powerpoints.......so exhausting.  Sooo - the dilemma - if I resign as of Sep 1 I walk away from 2022 bonus, some shares vesting as of next Feb, after tax cash compensation and 401k match between then and now that amounts to $170k all in.  I look at that statistic daily and it keeps me from writing the resignation e-mail.   Which brings me to my question - am I being silly tying myself to that "addition" to our NW?  I hate so say this but I find myself "wishing away" 6 months of life just to get to March 1......

Any thoughts???

Much love!

We have about $1.6m in stocks and bonds.   A 1% rise in the S&P works out to around $10-11k.  In an average results years I can expect a 10% rise in total, or about $100,000 to $110,000 counting dividends.

I'm guessing you have way more in your stock and bond portfolio than we do.   With a $3m portfolio we would be looking at $300,000 to $330,000 in average gains for doing nothing at all -- no powerpoints, no dumb projects, etc.    At a certain point, you have "enough".   

Are you there yet?   Because if you are, that $170k is meaningless but the boredom and frustration never are.

We have a relatively large portfolio - even assuming inflated expense levels, we are probably at a 2.25% SWR - and could probably stop working...but I can't help from feeling uneasy when I read comments like these.

The market doesn't give you average returns year over year, it gives you actuals.  40 years from now we might look back and realize an 8% or 10% return.  Or, it could be more, or less, but year to year, it can vary wildly.  And it's hard to argue against folks that point to the correlations between a) high valuations like we have today and b) lower expected returns.

Undoubtedly, someone will read this that has been investing or invested in the markets for 20+ years.  I hope they weigh in with their perspective.

Personally, as a 41 year old, I didn't have "real" money in the market until 2011/2012, and the markets have been good to us all over that time period.  So, my track record is only 10 years.  If I pull the plug now, i could need to live off my portfolio for 50 years.

i don't post often, and love this group and the optimism they imbue, but when i see folks in other threads talking about buying stocks on margin, or selling their homes to invest in ARK funds, or counting on a 10% return, it makes me uneasy.

I don't think "this time is different" but I do think there are clouds on the horizon.  i suppose that's why i am at a <2.5% SWR...

sorry for the rant, i don't want to be the resident raincloud.

Dreadfully, sorry, I forgot to include a statement that included something to the effect of "... and a 4% SWR income of a bit over $120k."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 26, 2021, 12:14:21 AM

@wannabe-stache   You have been investing in a more Goldy Locks period.   Not that you personally didn't do your own part becoming financially successful.  It takes more than opportunity, you have to put the energy and dollars in to reach your status.   That being said, I was a young investor in the 90s.  Some of us were completely wiped out with the Dot.com bust and then again in 2008.  I'm glad for index funds.  I'm a Brute Force Millionaire, I'm not financially savvy.  I just keep hitting with dollars till they add up.  It's hard to just stay the course and wait for compounding to work.  The smart guys like Herbert Derp, wherever he went, I think is a Tesla millionaire.  He ran through this thread in a year, making multi millions in a year.  I think index funds will continue to average.  It takes time to cross the rough spots and you enjoy the times like the past decade when everyone made money.  My parents retired in the 90s and have had a less than stellar financial journey since then.  They did use professional advisors and that didn't help either.  Advisors back in the day sold you a bag of loaded funds and took another percent in management for the privilege.  Hopefully the top is never in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 26, 2021, 04:27:46 AM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on August 25, 2021, 07:43:07 PM

Personally, as a 41 year old, I didn't have "real" money in the market until 2011/2012, and the markets have been good to us all over that time period.  So, my track record is only 10 years.  If I pull the plug now, i could need to live off my portfolio for 50 years.

...

sorry for the rant, i don't want to be the resident raincloud.

No need to apologize! I am now in my late 50s. But If I was 41, I would feel the same as you. In fact I was about your age a few years after the big Dotcom crash and the memory of that crash was still fresh in my mind. At the lunch table at work, several people had taken out home equity loans to buy stock. That experience and living through the 2008 crash have made me more cautious.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on August 26, 2021, 04:33:50 AM

I didn't have that much money to spare in the run up to the Dot Com crash (a bit more in the run up to the financial crisis), but I "foresaw" both, pulled money out in advance, and although I haven't done the sums I don't think it helped me at all overall.  My patterns might have been right but my overall market exposure has always been too low.  So I've missed the downs, but haven't fully taken advantage of the ups either. 

It's one thing to see that trouble is coming down the road.  It's quite another to figure out when to exit the market and (perhaps even more critically) when to get back in.  Basically I am a worrier, which means I see the crises coming far too early and am generally too long out of the market once they land.  I mostly missed the crashes, but also a lot of the growth that pre-dated them and a chunk of the bounce-back that followed (I generally managed to get partially in pretty quickly after each crash - but was far too cautious in the amounts to invest - it always felt like there might be more bad news around the corner, and this what turned out to be the turning point might actually just be a staging post on the way down).

This current market is going to make things rather uncomfortable for me over the next few years unless things do reverse as I'm just gradually stopping work over the next 6 months, and plan to do a reverse equity glide path over the next few years (currently only about 66% of my non-house wealth is in equities, and I plan to get up to 90% over the next 10-15 years or so as my children get older and the risk of needing a chunk of cash right now declines).  So I may well find myself buying at very high multiples.  But I was a good little robot and increased my equity exposure gradually across last spring/summer, even when it felt pretty shitty, knowing that my failure to do so in the past had cost me an even earlier retirement - and that's worked out well (so far).

So in the end my experience of my own psychology teaches me that even when I'm at some level "correct", trying to market time hasn't served me that well!  So I'm going to attempt to continue to be a good little robot.  Drip drip drip.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on August 26, 2021, 08:29:10 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 18, 2021, 10:57:00 AM

Quote from: PathtoFIRE on August 18, 2021, 09:53:29 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 18, 2021, 07:16:31 AM

Money that comes free does not have the same internal worth.

Complete tangent, but your comment made me wonder if social science could answer exactly what level of work would instill a similar level of worth? Taking the two extremes as a given (though I'd like these verified as well) that "free" things have low worth to humans, and "earned" things have a much higher worth, what could be done to bring the individual worth of "free" things up. Would something as simple as being forced to play a short simple game to get cash or rent assistance do it? Something more complex or complicated? Something completely unrelated to the assistance or benefit, or does it need to be tied directly to it? Would people treat various public goods better if some small, trivial, but universal step or action needed to partake? Just a few musings I thought I'd share in case anyone else has wondered the same.

This is a significant conundrum with UBI.  Economists argue that it is vastly more efficient to just hand out a subsistence level stipend to poverty-stricken groups vs. all the social programs and management currently in place (SNAP, CHIP, WHIP, DIP :)  Folks that want to improve their position will at least have a bootstrap.  But the worry from society is that folks will just be content subsisting while contributing nothing (apparently forgetting the fact that all they are doing now is spending all their time gaming the systems), whereas economists are worried that providing subsistence will further erode the availability of jobs and the 'meaning' work provides for many folks. 

The biased MMM Forum is probably not the place to have a conversation about work providing people with identity and self-worth though...

This is one of these things where I think smart people can theorize all day long but we really need a strong experiment to find out what people would do. The few small experiments I’ve heard about (Freakonomics had an episode) were tantalizing.

I can see people being happy to have subsistence-level guaranteed support and quickly decide they want more than that in life and then go out and work to make their lives cushier.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 26, 2021, 09:43:54 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on August 26, 2021, 08:29:10 PM

- RIP!  RIP! -

I can see people being happy to have subsistence-level guaranteed support and quickly decide they want more than that in life and then go out and work to make their lives cushier.

I am a cynical person, but even I realize that there are a lot of good souls out there.  I also realize there are a lot of good things that need to be done.  I'll bet IF a lot of people were given survival and were of sound mind and body, THEN these people would use some of the given time to go out and do some of these good things.  In fact, it may make the whole country better.  It wouldn't show up on any GDP calculation or raise the price of any stock.  I do think this doing good stuff may spread if it started.  You see, it feels good to some of us when we know we have done good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 27, 2021, 06:40:37 AM

I'm probably going to be off the air for a while.  I'm supposed to be pulling into my Florida house about now.  I cancelled the trip and I'm staying in Louisiana.  We're in Ascension Parish.  Not on the coast but directly under the line for a major hurricane hit.  I'm staying for family.  Our family will need our help these two days before the storm and after.  This is the big one I'm afraid.  It could rival Katrina.  I'll post back if we still have communication after Sunday.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: aspiringnomad on August 27, 2021, 07:45:55 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on August 15, 2021, 08:06:36 AM

So gang - what would you do?  Age 57, in great health, great family, $4.3M total net worth, with no major future expenses (such as college - all done with that!) on the horizon. 

I had planned to hang up the laptop back on March 1 - however the allure of work from home ended up getting me - so now am nearing the half way point of my latest "OMY".  Meantime I am really, REALLY losing interest in life at Mega Corp.  The stupid meetings, the dumb projects and the endless Powerpoints.......so exhausting.  Sooo - the dilemma - if I resign as of Sep 1 I walk away from 2022 bonus, some shares vesting as of next Feb, after tax cash compensation and 401k match between then and now that amounts to $170k all in.  I look at that statistic daily and it keeps me from writing the resignation e-mail.   Which brings me to my question - am I being silly tying myself to that "addition" to our NW?  I hate so say this but I find myself "wishing away" 6 months of life just to get to March 1......

Any thoughts???

Much love!

Just chiming in as another Bills fan and someone who broke free of golden handcuffs last year after similar trepidation about lost income. I'm ~20 years younger than you and have a bit over half your wealth, but I have zero regrets about making the leap when I did. Wouldn't trade this last year or the next year in for another $170k despite the bigger impact that would have on my net worth compared to yours.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 27, 2021, 09:46:36 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 27, 2021, 06:40:37 AM

I'm probably going to be off the air for a while.  I'm supposed to be pulling into my Florida house about now.  I cancelled the trip and I'm staying in Louisiana.  We're in Ascension Parish.  Not on the coast but directly under the line for a major hurricane hit.  I'm staying for family.  Our family will need our help these two days before the storm and after.  This is the big one I'm afraid.  It could rival Katrina.  I'll post back if we still have communication after Sunday.

I'll be holding my breath until you post again. I hope it's not as bad as anticipated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 27, 2021, 09:52:22 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 27, 2021, 09:46:36 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 27, 2021, 06:40:37 AM

I'm probably going to be off the air for a while.  I'm supposed to be pulling into my Florida house about now.  I cancelled the trip and I'm staying in Louisiana.  We're in Ascension Parish.  Not on the coast but directly under the line for a major hurricane hit.  I'm staying for family.  Our family will need our help these two days before the storm and after.  This is the big one I'm afraid.  It could rival Katrina.  I'll post back if we still have communication after Sunday.

I'll be holding my breath until you post again. I hope it's not as bad as anticipated.

Holy S!.. I had no idea it was predicted to be that bad.... Hoping it blows itself out..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on August 27, 2021, 10:05:41 AM

Thinking of you and yours @Bateaux - hope it's not as bad as feared.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on August 27, 2021, 10:13:56 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 27, 2021, 09:52:22 AM

Holy S!.. I had no idea it was predicted to be that bad.... Hoping it blows itself out..

It's not, but that doesn't keep people glued to the little black box.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 27, 2021, 01:24:37 PM

Good luck @Bateaux !

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 27, 2021, 02:39:50 PM

Thanks for the well wishes.  I spent the day helping my parents prepare.  The are about twenty miles from us.  Tonight and tomorrow my family and I will make our preps here.  One son works for a local television station and will likely be at the station for the storm in Baton Rouge.  The youngest will be off work till Monday and will be here.  I'll probably try a d get my wife to higher ground unless she insists on staying.  We have all the equipment to sustain ourselves including boats.  We'll make it through.  I'll keep in touch unless we lose cell towers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 27, 2021, 03:20:54 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 27, 2021, 02:39:50 PM

Thanks for the well wishes.  I spent the day helping my parents prepare.  The are about twenty miles from us.  Tonight and tomorrow my family and I will make our preps here.  One son works for a local television station and will likely be at the station for the storm in Baton Rouge.  The youngest will be off work till Monday and will be here.  I'll probably try a d get my wife to higher ground unless she insists on staying.  We have all the equipment to sustain ourselves including boats.  We'll make it through.  I'll keep in touch unless we lose cell towers.

Ditto from me @Bateaux -- wishing you and yours the best as you hunker down.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 27, 2021, 03:34:35 PM

Quote from: arcturus on August 27, 2021, 03:20:54 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 27, 2021, 02:39:50 PM

Thanks for the well wishes.  I spent the day helping my parents prepare.  The are about twenty miles from us.  Tonight and tomorrow my family and I will make our preps here.  One son works for a local television station and will likely be at the station for the storm in Baton Rouge.  The youngest will be off work till Monday and will be here.  I'll probably try a d get my wife to higher ground unless she insists on staying.  We have all the equipment to sustain ourselves including boats.  We'll make it through.  I'll keep in touch unless we lose cell towers.

Ditto from me @Bateaux -- wishing you and yours the best as you hunker down.....

Appreciate it.

My wife has decided to stay with family in Baton Rouge on higher ground.   I may encourage my youngest son to join her.   My parents are on high ground.  Nothing we can do about the winds.  I'm getting them safe from the flooding.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on August 27, 2021, 03:50:20 PM

Fingers crossed.

I’ve never lived through anything even remotely similar but I did two trips to do cleanup in New Orleans after Katrina. To say that was eye-opening was putting it mildly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 27, 2021, 05:02:24 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 27, 2021, 01:24:37 PM

Good luck @Bateaux !

Same

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 27, 2021, 06:33:34 PM

Best of luck!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on August 27, 2021, 07:34:34 PM

[/quote]

We have a relatively large portfolio - even assuming inflated expense levels, we are probably at a 2.25% SWR - and could probably stop working...but I can't help from feeling uneasy when I read comments like these.

The market doesn't give you average returns year over year, it gives you actuals.  40 years from now we might look back and realize an 8% or 10% return.  Or, it could be more, or less, but year to year, it can vary wildly.  And it's hard to argue against folks that point to the correlations between a) high valuations like we have today and b) lower expected returns.

Undoubtedly, someone will read this that has been investing or invested in the markets for 20+ years.  I hope they weigh in with their perspective.

Personally, as a 41 year old, I didn't have "real" money in the market until 2011/2012, and the markets have been good to us all over that time period.  So, my track record is only 10 years.  If I pull the plug now, i could need to live off my portfolio for 50 years.

i don't post often, and love this group and the optimism they imbue, but when i see folks in other threads talking about buying stocks on margin, or selling their homes to invest in ARK funds, or counting on a 10% return, it makes me uneasy.

I don't think "this time is different" but I do think there are clouds on the horizon.  i suppose that's why i am at a <2.5% SWR...

sorry for the rant, i don't want to be the resident raincloud.
[/quote]

Dreadfully, sorry, I forgot to include a statement that included something to the effect of "... and a 4% SWR income of a bit over $120k."
[/quote]
i am not sure what the jist of the "dreadfully sorry" is, hope you didn't take offense to my post.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 27, 2021, 08:07:38 PM

Nah, just sorry to have been unclear and cause your concern.   Thanks for caring!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on August 27, 2021, 10:18:33 PM

@Bateaux , will be thinking of you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on August 28, 2021, 02:06:39 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 26, 2021, 12:14:21 AM

  Hopefully the top is never in.

HERETIC!!!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on August 28, 2021, 09:24:50 AM

Just checked my investments and compared them to the end of June.  I see I am up $55,000 over two months. 

My first thought was "Oh jeeze, is that all???".  Then I thought this was for two months, so take it out over 12 months at that rate, and I would get an increase of $330,000.   Wait, was I complaining about this type of return?  Is this what it feels like to be in the top 1%???   

When my pension comes online I will never be able to spend money at this rate.  I figured this was the only place I could post this where people would understand my astonishment at these numbers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on August 28, 2021, 09:34:14 AM

Quote from: PhrugalPhan on August 28, 2021, 09:24:50 AM

I figured this was the only place I could post this where people would understand my astonishment at these numbers.

Actually this may be the one place where astonishment is relatively low -- since we're all used to seeing this kind of thing. :)

But I do remember the first time I noticed that our investment gains during a year exceeded our gross salaries.  It did seem pretty amazing!  Now it's old hat, and anything less feels like a disappointment :o

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 11:09:49 AM

Haha.. yeah, two weeks ago we bought a brand new SUV.. Never bought anything that expensive before*, in fact it cost more than my first house!

Since we bought it our investments have grown to have almost replaced the "loss" due to buying the car!

Here I am looking at this monster sitting in the driveway and I'm thinking this hunk of metal was almost paid for in 2 weeks!


*My bad.. the airplane cost about $90k to build but I sold it for $85k so I sort of forget about it, houses have cost more too but all sold for a profit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 28, 2021, 12:11:10 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 11:09:49 AM

Haha.. yeah, two weeks ago we bought a brand new SUV.. Never bought anything that expensive before*, in fact it cost more than my first house!

Since we bought it our investments have grown to have almost replaced the "loss" due to buying the car!

Here I am looking at this monster sitting in the driveway and I'm thinking this hunk of metal was almost paid for in 2 weeks!


*My bad.. the airplane cost about $90k to build but I sold it for $85k so I sort of forget about it, houses have cost more too but all sold for a profit.

But, how much is the first house that you bought worth today? 


What kind of SUV did you get?  I recently realized the GMC Yukon Denali sells for $85K, that was a shocker.  :O

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 12:50:21 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 28, 2021, 12:11:10 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 11:09:49 AM

Haha.. yeah, two weeks ago we bought a brand new SUV.. Never bought anything that expensive before*, in fact it cost more than my first house!

Since we bought it our investments have grown to have almost replaced the "loss" due to buying the car!

Here I am looking at this monster sitting in the driveway and I'm thinking this hunk of metal was almost paid for in 2 weeks!


*My bad.. the airplane cost about $90k to build but I sold it for $85k so I sort of forget about it, houses have cost more too but all sold for a profit.

But, how much is the first house that you bought worth today? 


What kind of SUV did you get?  I recently realized the GMC Yukon Denali sells for $85K, that was a shocker.  :O

Oh much more than what I sold it for back in 1985..:)

We got a Honda Passport Sport AWD, which is their base model. The amazing thing about the base model is you get almost everything that the higher trims get. All the collision avoidance, lane keeping assist, back up camera etc etc. Engine/transmission is the same on every trim level. The only thing you don't get is leather and heated seats... But that is like another $15k and squeeze is nowhere near worth the juice.

All up cost to us was $35,127.. Thats with $1250 Honda discount plus $500 Costco membership discount.. The AWD was $2k.. included in that price.

We wanted a rig that we could sleep in comfortably and DW could get up into the snow for skiing... The only downside is the whee/tire combo is terrible for snow.. so it needs better tires at a minimum and ideally the stupid 20 inch wheels need to be swapped out for 18's.

That way you can deflate the tire somewhat for extra snow grip. No way you can do that with 20 inch "mall creeper" wheels.

But the AWD system itself is superb so swapping out the tires when they wear out is not the end of the world.. Have to make sure you have snow chains for the back wheels at a minimum.

Insurance costs were remarkably low too!.. Like $433 for fully comprehensive (includes $500k liability) for 12 months with a $1000 deductible. I was going to insure for liability only but for that price might as well have full coverage.

Overall a pretty good fit for our needs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on August 28, 2021, 04:38:23 PM

Studless snow tires on their own rims are really nice, and you don’t have to worry about the removal deadlines. Also, your friends down at Les Schwab will swap them for free every spring and fall while you read the paper and eat popcorn…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 05:32:00 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on August 28, 2021, 04:38:23 PM

Studless snow tires on their own rims are really nice, and you don’t have to worry about the removal deadlines. Also, your friends down at Les Schwab will swap them for free every spring and fall while you read the paper and eat popcorn…

Is that so? Funny cus the most highly recommended snow tire (Nokians) are supplied thru Les Schwab.. Do they balance them for free as well?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 28, 2021, 06:08:18 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 12:50:21 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 28, 2021, 12:11:10 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 11:09:49 AM

Haha.. yeah, two weeks ago we bought a brand new SUV.. Never bought anything that expensive before*, in fact it cost more than my first house!

Since we bought it our investments have grown to have almost replaced the "loss" due to buying the car!

Here I am looking at this monster sitting in the driveway and I'm thinking this hunk of metal was almost paid for in 2 weeks!


*My bad.. the airplane cost about $90k to build but I sold it for $85k so I sort of forget about it, houses have cost more too but all sold for a profit.

But, how much is the first house that you bought worth today? 


What kind of SUV did you get?  I recently realized the GMC Yukon Denali sells for $85K, that was a shocker.  :O

Oh much more than what I sold it for back in 1985..:)

We got a Honda Passport Sport AWD, which is their base model. The amazing thing about the base model is you get almost everything that the higher trims get. All the collision avoidance, lane keeping assist, back up camera etc etc. Engine/transmission is the same on every trim level. The only thing you don't get is leather and heated seats... But that is like another $15k and squeeze is nowhere near worth the juice.

All up cost to us was $35,127.. Thats with $1250 Honda discount plus $500 Costco membership discount.. The AWD was $2k.. included in that price.

We wanted a rig that we could sleep in comfortably and DW could get up into the snow for skiing... The only downside is the whee/tire combo is terrible for snow.. so it needs better tires at a minimum and ideally the stupid 20 inch wheels need to be swapped out for 18's.

That way you can deflate the tire somewhat for extra snow grip. No way you can do that with 20 inch "mall creeper" wheels.

But the AWD system itself is superb so swapping out the tires when they wear out is not the end of the world.. Have to make sure you have snow chains for the back wheels at a minimum.

Insurance costs were remarkably low too!.. Like $433 for fully comprehensive (includes $500k liability) for 12 months with a $1000 deductible. I was going to insure for liability only but for that price might as well have full coverage.

Overall a pretty good fit for our needs.

That looks like a nice size SUV.  Plenty of power with 280 hp with 5000 lb towing capacity.  You mentioned sleeping in it.  Is there room for your luggage & gear too, or will you store things in a roof pod when you camp in it? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 06:23:47 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on August 28, 2021, 06:08:18 PM

That looks like a nice size SUV.  Plenty of power with 280 hp with 5000 lb towing capacity.  You mentioned sleeping in it.  Is there room for your luggage & gear too, or will you store things in a roof pod when you camp in it?

Oh yes for the two of us there is plenty of room.. If we need more we could remove the back seats and build a platform/storage container type contraption.

If you needed even more room its not "that much" more money to step up to a Honda Pilot which is the same car but 6 inches longer and three rows of seats. I would imagine with 8 seats the liability insurance costs would be higher though?

The 5000lb towing capacity is a bit of a lie.. You only get 5k pounds if equipped with the transmission oil cooler which is a dealer option.

Honda are known for denying warranty claims and they warn you against DIYing your own transmission level check or fluid fills... Because we are clearly too stupid to check a thing so complicated as a fluid level! That would prevent a DIY install of an oil cooler too.

Seeing as I have no intention of paying my dealer to do anything this is a bit of a dilemma.. I highly doubt I would be hooking up a horse trailer to this thing I really don't need 5k pounds of tow capacity. This car is not a truck and we have a 1989 F250 for the heavy hauling.

As to the 280hp the thing goes like stink! its 0-60 time is reputed to be around 6 seconds!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on August 28, 2021, 06:24:54 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 05:32:00 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on August 28, 2021, 04:38:23 PM

Studless snow tires on their own rims are really nice, and you don’t have to worry about the removal deadlines. Also, your friends down at Les Schwab will swap them for free every spring and fall while you read the paper and eat popcorn…

Is that so? Funny cus the most highly recommended snow tire (Nokians) are supplied thru Les Schwab.. Do they balance them for free as well?

I’m not sure. But if they charge, it has to be pretty low cost. And they don’t have to be balanced every year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JAYSLOL on August 28, 2021, 09:15:41 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 05:32:00 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on August 28, 2021, 04:38:23 PM

Studless snow tires on their own rims are really nice, and you don’t have to worry about the removal deadlines. Also, your friends down at Les Schwab will swap them for free every spring and fall while you read the paper and eat popcorn…

Is that so? Funny cus the most highly recommended snow tire (Nokians) are supplied thru Les Schwab.. Do they balance them for free as well?

Yes, highly recommend the Nokian Hakkapellita R2 SUV tires.  I live in semi-rural Canada and we can have some pretty serious winters, I put a set on my AWD Santa Fe and they are terrific, I’ve literally pulled a stuck F150 through a 200’ long patch of 2’ deep snow to get it back to the road. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 10:43:38 PM

Quote from: JAYSLOL on August 28, 2021, 09:15:41 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 05:32:00 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on August 28, 2021, 04:38:23 PM

Studless snow tires on their own rims are really nice, and you don’t have to worry about the removal deadlines. Also, your friends down at Les Schwab will swap them for free every spring and fall while you read the paper and eat popcorn…

Is that so? Funny cus the most highly recommended snow tire (Nokians) are supplied thru Les Schwab.. Do they balance them for free as well?

Yes, highly recommend the Nokian Hakkapellita R2 SUV tires.  I live in semi-rural Canada and we can have some pretty serious winters, I put a set on my AWD Santa Fe and they are terrific, I’ve literally pulled a stuck F150 through a 200’ long patch of 2’ deep snow to get it back to the road.

Dayum.. That is impressive!

If they are that good then thats probably more than we need, so not much point putting smaller rims on because its highly unlikely to be used in a situation where the tires need to be deflated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Allie on August 29, 2021, 02:14:14 PM

I have a set of studless snow tires on my car (also an Awd Santa Fe).  I’ve had them on for 6 years and never switched them out.  I was told they would fail much more quickly if I used them during the summer, and maybe they would last forever if I swapped them.  Last year was the first winter I noticed the were less grippy…but still nothing close to a regular all season tire.  Something to consider if you aren’t in a really hot place and don’t have free swaps available.  I could buy a new set every 6 years for the cost of tires swaps up here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 29, 2021, 06:56:47 PM

Hurricane Ida update.  Just lost power.  I'm enjoying a ham sandwich and a 🍻 beer wearing a headlamp.  Just waiting out the storm now.  We got fairly lucky, as bad as it is outside, it's supposed to be much worse.  The storm took and unexpected slight turn to the north.  Now instead of the dreaded Northeast eyewall, we're getting the Northwest eyewall.  We did three solid days of prepping.  The most I've ever done before a hurricane.  Happy to have just enough cell signal to get out a post.  Someone has metal roof coming apart up the river from us.  I was trying to sleep, it's making too much racket and there are limbs hitting the roof just over my bed.  It will be over for us by daylight.  We're going to make it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 29, 2021, 07:04:01 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 29, 2021, 06:56:47 PM

Hurricane Ida update.  Just lost power.  I'm enjoying a ham sandwich and a 🍻 beer wearing a headlamp.  Just waiting out the storm now.  We got fairly lucky, as bad as it is outside, it's supposed to be much worse.  The storm took and unexpected slight turn to the north.  Now instead of the dreaded Northeast eyewall, we're getting the Northwest eyewall.  We did three solid days of prepping.  The most I've ever done before a hurricane.  Happy to have just enough cell signal to get out a post.  Someone has metal roof coming apart up the river from us.  I was trying to sleep, it's making too much racket and there are limbs hitting the roof just over my bed.  It will be over for us by daylight.  We're going to make it.

Good Deal it'll pass.  Don't think I'd want to live there.  I guess I'll just live with the occasional blizzard.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JAYSLOL on August 29, 2021, 08:01:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 10:43:38 PM

Quote from: JAYSLOL on August 28, 2021, 09:15:41 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 28, 2021, 05:32:00 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on August 28, 2021, 04:38:23 PM

Studless snow tires on their own rims are really nice, and you don’t have to worry about the removal deadlines. Also, your friends down at Les Schwab will swap them for free every spring and fall while you read the paper and eat popcorn…

Is that so? Funny cus the most highly recommended snow tire (Nokians) are supplied thru Les Schwab.. Do they balance them for free as well?

Yes, highly recommend the Nokian Hakkapellita R2 SUV tires.  I live in semi-rural Canada and we can have some pretty serious winters, I put a set on my AWD Santa Fe and they are terrific, I’ve literally pulled a stuck F150 through a 200’ long patch of 2’ deep snow to get it back to the road.

Dayum.. That is impressive!

If they are that good then thats probably more than we need, so not much point putting smaller rims on because its highly unlikely to be used in a situation where the tires need to be deflated.

It’s an older Santa Fe with the stock 16” wheels, and they were a bit under-inflated at that, so I’m not sure how they compare to a lower profile tires on bigger rims, but I’ve been super impressed by them.  But I also agree, get a second set of wheels for the winters, those Nokians are amazing, but it comes at the cost of VERY soft tread so they shouldn’t be run in the summer or they’ll disappear in just a couple seasons.  An extra set of rims let’s you put them on and off anytime yourself and saves trying to get the car into a garage during peak tire-change season as well as the cost

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on August 29, 2021, 10:45:08 PM

Quote from: JAYSLOL on August 29, 2021, 08:01:44 PM

get a second set of wheels for the winters, those Nokians are amazing, but it comes at the cost of VERY soft tread so they shouldn’t be run in the summer or they’ll disappear in just a couple seasons.  An extra set of rims let’s you put them on and off anytime yourself and saves trying to get the car into a garage during peak tire-change season as well as the cost

Plus, tire rotation is super easy when you only have to jack up one corner of the car at a time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on August 30, 2021, 07:06:20 AM

I've talked about using snow tires year round many times.  I've used just about every brand from the Hakkas to Blizzak to Altimax to Pirelli and Sumitomo.  I always find people who tell me that they're going to wear out soooo fast.  Well, ok, but we have seen many vehicles...mostly Subarus with snows from day one.  I can't remember a single time that I have ever gotten less than 50k miles out of a set.  With all these similar cars, it's pretty practical to have lots of wheels around with tires.  When a set gets low, it gets relegated to non-snow months only until it's worn to the wear bars.  If I run all seasons in the summer and snows in the winter, they age out way before they wear out.  So the added benefit for me is that the tires wear out just as they're getting to the age where they should be replaced.

I will say that I've more than once (probably more than 5 times) I've gone to either craigslist or to a car enthusiast forum, local thread and bought wheels with good tires for dirt cheap.  Our 13 Crosstrek tires were on the wear bars and I found a set of wheels with snows 45 minutes away for $200 with lugnuts.  The age was fine on these (I asked about the date code before I drove there) and the seller had just traded his Subaru for a Mazda 3, which was in the driveway when I went to pick them up.

Especially now, where most people are driving less, it really makes sense to run snows year round. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 30, 2021, 09:52:54 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 29, 2021, 06:56:47 PM

Hurricane Ida update.  Just lost power.  I'm enjoying a ham sandwich and a 🍻 beer wearing a headlamp.  Just waiting out the storm now.  We got fairly lucky, as bad as it is outside, it's supposed to be much worse.  The storm took and unexpected slight turn to the north.  Now instead of the dreaded Northeast eyewall, we're getting the Northwest eyewall.  We did three solid days of prepping.  The most I've ever done before a hurricane.  Happy to have just enough cell signal to get out a post.  Someone has metal roof coming apart up the river from us.  I was trying to sleep, it's making too much racket and there are limbs hitting the roof just over my bed.  It will be over for us by daylight.  We're going to make it.

Great to hear the update!  I was watching on Sunday as the system seemed to just sit on SE LA for longer than expected.  Hopefully it has moved on and the worst is behind you.  Now we will just hope that you get power back soon!  Hang in there @Bateaux

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 30, 2021, 11:44:04 AM

Hey guys.  It was a scary night but everyone and everything is good.  Only minor damages.  The storm took a turn towards New Orleans last minute giving us the western eyewall and not the dreaded eastern eyewall.  Haven't heard from my parents but they are in a solid house.  My fiberoptic internet is working like a champ.  So unlike the horrible 2016 flood I've got some communication.  Also city water is flowing so that's something we didn't have then.  I'm so thankful for how we made out.  Prayers and well wishes for those suffering.  Bateaux out.  We good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on August 30, 2021, 12:39:52 PM

Glad all is good with you and no major issues for you to deal with.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on August 30, 2021, 11:56:54 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 30, 2021, 11:44:04 AM

Hey guys.  It was a scary night but everyone and everything is good.  Only minor damages.  The storm took a turn towards New Orleans last minute giving us the western eyewall and not the dreaded eastern eyewall.  Haven't heard from my parents but they are in a solid house.  My fiberoptic internet is working like a champ.  So unlike the horrible 2016 flood I've got some communication.  Also city water is flowing so that's something we didn't have then.  I'm so thankful for how we made out.  Prayers and well wishes for those suffering.  Bateaux out.  We good.

you should move somewhere that has less hurricanes - like the west coast of Florida!!!

Glad you are ok!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 31, 2021, 01:58:05 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 30, 2021, 11:44:04 AM

Hey guys.  It was a scary night but everyone and everything is good.  Only minor damages.  The storm took a turn towards New Orleans last minute giving us the western eyewall and not the dreaded eastern eyewall.  Haven't heard from my parents but they are in a solid house.  My fiberoptic internet is working like a champ.  So unlike the horrible 2016 flood I've got some communication.  Also city water is flowing so that's something we didn't have then.  I'm so thankful for how we made out.  Prayers and well wishes for those suffering.  Bateaux out.  We good.

Good news!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 31, 2021, 03:24:53 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 30, 2021, 11:44:04 AM

Hey guys.  It was a scary night but everyone and everything is good.  Only minor damages.  The storm took a turn towards New Orleans last minute giving us the western eyewall and not the dreaded eastern eyewall.  Haven't heard from my parents but they are in a solid house.  My fiberoptic internet is working like a champ.  So unlike the horrible 2016 flood I've got some communication.  Also city water is flowing so that's something we didn't have then.  I'm so thankful for how we made out.  Prayers and well wishes for those suffering.  Bateaux out.  We good.

Really glad that you're ok - and it looks like you have power,, communications and water. Hope the recovery in your area is quick.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on August 31, 2021, 03:48:54 AM

Really glad it took that swerve.  My impression is all the post-Katrina engineering has done its job and the levees held too, which is good news.  Hope the clean up is not too painful for all involved.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 31, 2021, 01:00:09 PM

One more quick Ida update.  My parents are safe with only minor damages.  They almost flooded from storm surge, but the water is now dropping.  It was a hell of a journey, but I was able to get to them.   It will be weeks to months before all power is restored.  We are going to make it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 31, 2021, 01:29:26 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 31, 2021, 01:00:09 PM

One more quick Ida update.  My parents are safe with only minor damages.  They almost flooded from storm surge, but the water is now dropping.  It was a hell of a journey, but I was able to get to them.   It will be weeks to months before all power is restored.  We are going to make it.

That is good news!  Happy to hear it.  I heard today that a highway collapsed in Mississippi. Crazy.  We seem to get a 100 year storm every 16 years (or more frequently) now....unsure where this goes or how this gets better.   But I am glad that your family is relatively unscathed by this.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 31, 2021, 01:41:57 PM

And today -- in one of my favorite misleading statistics, Fidelity reports that the average IRA balance grew to $135K and the average 401K balance grew to $129K.    And they view this as an indicator of "how well Americans are saving for the long term."   

Well, I have 3 IRAs (in addition to a 401K)....and 2 IRAs are below this "average" and one is above it.   If I take the average of the 3, I'm a bit above the national "average."   Of course these IRAs comprise only about 20% of my invested assets and are therefore close to being irrelevant with respect to assessing how well I'm saving for retirement.

What is the usefulness of an "average" account balance when some people may have 1 account and others may have 6 or 7?   This statistic has always bugged me.  I guess its clickbait and I fall for it most of the time, kind of like "do I have enough to retire." 

End rant  :-)
 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on August 31, 2021, 08:27:05 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$*

* We rented out our current house and moved to our off-grid cottage hence our property investment did go up. Also a good month for crypto's, bought some more gold and continue renovating another property.

September: will be spending some money on the house renovation and also got some travels to do, but it does look like we will get to 3m before end of the year and before retirement.

Countdown to FIRE: 122 days. There has been change of plans and I will retire 1st January 2022, my wife retired already over year ago at the age of 43 and I'm going to be 43 also when retiring so later than planned originally but still some good years ahead.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on September 01, 2021, 12:18:07 AM

well I'm official quit and out of work. Joint funds with my partner puts us near 3m but we both track independently after both going through divorce.
As she's worth more than me I shall now turn my attention to getting her sorted out with her investments and putting plans in place to extract her from her job!!

luckily as she works for the feds she gets plenty of vacation so we still get to do a lot of non work stuff!!
nearly 3 mill seems improbable as when we got together it was probably around  750k joint net worth. crazy times. Top is in!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 01, 2021, 01:17:28 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 31, 2021, 01:41:57 PM

And today -- in one of my favorite misleading statistics, Fidelity reports that the average IRA balance grew to $135K and the average 401K balance grew to $129K.    And they view this as an indicator of "how well Americans are saving for the long term."   

Well, I have 3 IRAs (in addition to a 401K)....and 2 IRAs are below this "average" and one is above it.   If I take the average of the 3, I'm a bit above the national "average."   Of course these IRAs comprise only about 20% of my invested assets and are therefore close to being irrelevant with respect to assessing how well I'm saving for retirement.

What is the usefulness of an "average" account balance when some people may have 1 account and others may have 6 or 7?   This statistic has always bugged me.  I guess its clickbait and I fall for it most of the time, kind of like "do I have enough to retire." 

End rant  :-)
 

Ah, you've hit on one of my pet peeves. I saw that "article" today, too. Why they assume people have only one account is beyond me. DH has a small 401k with his employer, probably right around that "average" amount, but he also has a fucking Defined Benefit Pension! We have $3M in real estate equity, plus two commas in equities, plus two commas in  IRAs, plus a pending two comma inheritance. And like @Finntastic, we have way too much cash. That "small" 401k is just one egg in a basket of many.  Sheesh. Clickbait indeed.

I know ^that^ sounds incredibly braggy but, what the hell? This is the "$2M to $4M...and Beyond" thread, right?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on September 01, 2021, 01:27:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 01, 2021, 01:17:28 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 31, 2021, 01:41:57 PM

And today -- in one of my favorite misleading statistics, Fidelity reports that the average IRA balance grew to $135K and the average 401K balance grew to $129K.    And they view this as an indicator of "how well Americans are saving for the long term."   

Well, I have 3 IRAs (in addition to a 401K)....and 2 IRAs are below this "average" and one is above it.   If I take the average of the 3, I'm a bit above the national "average."   Of course these IRAs comprise only about 20% of my invested assets and are therefore close to being irrelevant with respect to assessing how well I'm saving for retirement.

What is the usefulness of an "average" account balance when some people may have 1 account and others may have 6 or 7?   This statistic has always bugged me.  I guess its clickbait and I fall for it most of the time, kind of like "do I have enough to retire." 

End rant  :-)
 

Ah, you've hit on one of my pet peeves. I saw that "article" today, too. Why they assume people have only one account is beyond me. DH has a small 401k with his employer, probably right around that "average" amount, but he also has a fucking Defined Benefit Pension! We have $3M in real estate equity, plus two commas in equities, plus two commas in  IRAs, plus a pending two comma inheritance. And like @Finntastic, we have way too much cash. That "small" 401k is just one egg in a basket of many.  Sheesh. Clickbait indeed.

I know ^that^ sounds incredibly braggy but, what the hell? This is the "$2M to $4M...and Beyond" thread, right?

exactly @Dicey . similar boat here. with a couple of rentals (not on the CA scale of equity but still rentals) 4 IRA's, non IRA savings plus the potential for a double comma inheritance then looking at my IRA balance means nothing. within a few years we can probably live very comfortable on SS alone - never mind the income being spun off from rentals and other savings vehicles.

Its a very narrow focus but then again it is a lot of people main source of savings. We do tend to be a little different here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 01, 2021, 05:42:36 AM

Quote from: UnleashHell on September 01, 2021, 01:27:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 01, 2021, 01:17:28 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 31, 2021, 01:41:57 PM

And today -- in one of my favorite misleading statistics, Fidelity reports that the average IRA balance grew to $135K and the average 401K balance grew to $129K.    And they view this as an indicator of "how well Americans are saving for the long term."   

Well, I have 3 IRAs (in addition to a 401K)....and 2 IRAs are below this "average" and one is above it.   If I take the average of the 3, I'm a bit above the national "average."   Of course these IRAs comprise only about 20% of my invested assets and are therefore close to being irrelevant with respect to assessing how well I'm saving for retirement.

What is the usefulness of an "average" account balance when some people may have 1 account and others may have 6 or 7?   This statistic has always bugged me.  I guess its clickbait and I fall for it most of the time, kind of like "do I have enough to retire." 

End rant  :-)
 

Ah, you've hit on one of my pet peeves. I saw that "article" today, too. Why they assume people have only one account is beyond me. DH has a small 401k with his employer, probably right around that "average" amount, but he also has a fucking Defined Benefit Pension! We have $3M in real estate equity, plus two commas in equities, plus two commas in  IRAs, plus a pending two comma inheritance. And like @Finntastic, we have way too much cash. That "small" 401k is just one egg in a basket of many.  Sheesh. Clickbait indeed.

I know ^that^ sounds incredibly braggy but, what the hell? This is the "$2M to $4M...and Beyond" thread, right?

exactly @Dicey . similar boat here. with a couple of rentals (not on the CA scale of equity but still rentals) 4 IRA's, non IRA savings plus the potential for a double comma inheritance then looking at my IRA balance means nothing. within a few years we can probably live very comfortable on SS alone - never mind the income being spun off from rentals and other savings vehicles.

Its a very narrow focus but then again it is a lot of people main source of savings. We do tend to be a little different here.

Yeah, but you're my people...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on September 01, 2021, 06:34:51 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on August 31, 2021, 08:27:05 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$*

* We rented out our current house and moved to our off-grid cottage hence our property investment did go up. Also a good month for crypto's, bought some more gold and continue renovating another property.

September: will be spending some money on the house renovation and also got some travels to do, but it does look like we will get to 3m before end of the year and before retirement.

Countdown to FIRE: 122 days. There has been change of plans and I will retire 1st January 2022, my wife retired already over year ago at the age of 43 and I'm going to be 43 also when retiring so later than planned originally but still some good years ahead.

Congrats @Finntastic !

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on September 01, 2021, 06:40:57 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 01, 2021, 01:17:28 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 31, 2021, 01:41:57 PM

And today -- in one of my favorite misleading statistics, Fidelity reports that the average IRA balance grew to $135K and the average 401K balance grew to $129K.    And they view this as an indicator of "how well Americans are saving for the long term."   

Well, I have 3 IRAs (in addition to a 401K)....and 2 IRAs are below this "average" and one is above it.   If I take the average of the 3, I'm a bit above the national "average."   Of course these IRAs comprise only about 20% of my invested assets and are therefore close to being irrelevant with respect to assessing how well I'm saving for retirement.

What is the usefulness of an "average" account balance when some people may have 1 account and others may have 6 or 7?   This statistic has always bugged me.  I guess its clickbait and I fall for it most of the time, kind of like "do I have enough to retire." 

End rant  :-)
 

Ah, you've hit on one of my pet peeves. I saw that "article" today, too. Why they assume people have only one account is beyond me. DH has a small 401k with his employer, probably right around that "average" amount, but he also has a fucking Defined Benefit Pension! We have $3M in real estate equity, plus two commas in equities, plus two commas in  IRAs, plus a pending two comma inheritance. And like @Finntastic, we have way too much cash. That "small" 401k is just one egg in a basket of many.  Sheesh. Clickbait indeed.

I know ^that^ sounds incredibly braggy but, what the hell? This is the "$2M to $4M...and Beyond" thread, right?

Well said @Dicey , and not braggy.  I must admit, I'm a sucker for "retirement related" clickbait like this.  Most I can dismiss as an advert for a financial planner.  This is one that seems to get more credibility, and perhaps there is some validity to it for some as @UnleashHell says, but on the other hand, if all I had saved for retirement at this point was $130K I would indeed be in for a very difficult retirement.

The defined benefit plan / pension is one thing that I DON'T have and what a difference-maker that would be as a backstop/source of stability.  I guess I could say that's SS for me, but that doesn't kick in for years and is difficult to predict.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on September 01, 2021, 07:34:16 AM

I also have fun reading financial stories, even if they are wildly wrong.  I do like and quote the Fidelity one on performance of 401k's vs what the owners do...where dead people do way better than anyone else.  It pushes Jack Bogle's quote: "Don't do something, just stand there".

When I moved my TDAmeritrade accounts over to Schwab about 6 months ago, I got the courtesy call from a Schwab advisor.  I've had Schwab accounts for years, but this transfer brought over about $300k into a single tIRA, so I guess I got tagged on their radar.  I had fun sparring with the advisor, as I had time.  "How do you do your analysis to decide what to buy and sell?", he asks.  "I don't do any analysis.  I buy SCHB and rebalance whenever my AA band exceeds 5%".  I could hear him getting frustrated because I had no interest in a free analysis or to get into their intelligent income, if that's what they call it.  I told him that I looked carefully at this offering when it first came out and I didn't like the high ERs for the ETFs they use or the high percentage of cash, sitting, doing nothing.  I think he was probably reaching for anything because he's so used to people either not having a solid plan or having no idea what their programs are.  I do still like Schwab funds but in my old age, I'm going to move to less brokerages and will first consolidate eTrade and Ally Invest into probably Fidelity when my bonus wait periods are over.  While I like the trading platform at Schwab best, I'm quite happy with Fidelity, so they're likely going to be the last man standing for me.  Unfortunate that they have no bonuses to offer, but even my move from TDA to Schwab got me nothing.  Simplification is so DW won't have to run all over trying to figure out where all my accounts are.  I've done something similar with my HYSAs and will likely nuke Ally when I kill the investment account and end up with just Fidelity and DCU for my credit union.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 01, 2021, 08:42:55 AM

I'll throw this out. Will it stick like spaghetti thrown at a wall?

Once in a while I run into these financial guys wanting me to move my money into what ever they are selling.  They give me this song and dance about how they have these people who study the markets and know what sectors are hot or some similar sales pitch.  I wait for them to finish their memorized blather and ask them one question, "Can you tell me what the 4 percent rule is?"

It's amazing!  About 90 percent of these financial product sales people I've talked to have never heard of it.  How do they train these guys?  I'm a certified novice at this stuff and this seems pretty basic.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on September 01, 2021, 09:06:38 AM

Here's the long story of how they're trained:

http://kronstantinople.blogspot.com/p/edward-jones-saga.html

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 01, 2021, 09:34:17 AM

Related: We keep a lot of dry powder at our bank. We had the old staff trained to leave us alone, but I noticed recently all the key staff members had changed and braced myself for what I knew was coming. Last Friday, we needed a pile o'cash to score a deal on a used truck. (It wasn't for us, it was for DH's brother who was out of town. Truck was in our neighborhood. DH inspected and paid for it. BIL is home, money is repaid, has truck, all is well.) DH and I went into the bank together. We also had an unrelated check to deposit, which was for significantly more than we were withdrawing. The teller looked at our account and said we'd need to speak to the manager.

We ended up having an interesting conversation with two bank people in the middle of the bank (there were no other customers, and we weren't stepping into anybody's cubicle). We very politely told them that we knew exactly what we were doing with our money, did not need their investment services or fancy elite status or whatever and to please fuck the fuckety fuck off.

When that was done and our account was "re-coded" yet again, we climbed into DH's 19 year old truck and left. Would have been amusing to be a fly on the wall after we left.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on September 01, 2021, 10:01:50 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 01, 2021, 09:34:17 AM

...
I went into the bank together. We also had an unrelated check to deposit, which was for significantly more than we were withdrawing. The teller looked at our account and said we'd need to speak to the manager.
...

I had a chuckle when I read this - I got upgraded to "Private Client" status at Chase a few years ago where we keep a big chunk of our "dry powder". I agreed to this as I just keep emergency funds there and not much would change. I did however get a bigger sign bonus for the Chase Sapphire Reserve card. The branch manager was thrilled as I guess they have some kind of a quota to meet in identifying customers like us :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on September 01, 2021, 11:07:08 AM

LOL -- I think @Dicey is a budding novelist.  I got a kick out of reading that story, particularly the interaction with the Bank management team. 

Yes, my banking relationship I'm sure is a profound disappointment for Ch**e Bank, given it consists of a $325 savings balance and whatever I happen to have in my checking account at any moment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 01, 2021, 01:57:17 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 01, 2021, 09:06:38 AM

Here's the long story of how they're trained:

http://kronstantinople.blogspot.com/p/edward-jones-saga.html

Good Answer:  This was in your article.

"Several advisors admit that they have been repeatedly embarrassed in lacking the knowledge or authority to answer basic client questions. "I couldn't even tell them what the fees were," one admits. "It was like a hush-hush subject."   "Like, there's no way to tell a client his internal rate of return or to calculate the risk level of his portfolio, and there's no tool to rebalance assets," another one explains. "Clients would walk in and say 'Mike, you're great, really, but how I am doing this year?' and I couldn't show them.""

That article sure brought forth that there are some parasitic big businesses out there that contribute nothing good to their customers and leach from the economy of the United States.  These organizations bear some resemblance to pyramid schemes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: trashtalk on September 01, 2021, 02:30:18 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 01, 2021, 01:57:17 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 01, 2021, 09:06:38 AM

Here's the long story of how they're trained:

http://kronstantinople.blogspot.com/p/edward-jones-saga.html

Good Answer:  This was in your article.

"Several advisors admit that they have been repeatedly embarrassed in lacking the knowledge or authority to answer basic client questions. "I couldn't even tell them what the fees were," one admits. "It was like a hush-hush subject."   "Like, there's no way to tell a client his internal rate of return or to calculate the risk level of his portfolio, and there's no tool to rebalance assets," another one explains. "Clients would walk in and say 'Mike, you're great, really, but how I am doing this year?' and I couldn't show them.""

That article sure brought forth that there are some parasitic big businesses out there that contribute nothing good to their customers and leach from the economy of the United States.  These organizations bear some resemblance to pyramid schemes.

Wow that article is resolutely…grim. Thanks for sharing. Forewarned is forearmed and all that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 01, 2021, 05:31:03 PM

Quote from: UnleashHell on September 01, 2021, 12:18:07 AM

well I'm official quit and out of work. Joint funds with my partner puts us near 3m but we both track independently after both going through divorce.
As she's worth more than me I shall now turn my attention to getting her sorted out with her investments and putting plans in place to extract her from her job!!

luckily as she works for the feds she gets plenty of vacation so we still get to do a lot of non work stuff!!
nearly 3 mill seems improbable as when we got together it was probably around  750k joint net worth. crazy times. Top is in!!

Success!  Glad to hear it.  I know you are having a rough go with family.  All the best wishes for happy retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 01, 2021, 05:42:32 PM

Quote from: arcturus on September 01, 2021, 11:07:08 AM

LOL -- I think @Dicey is a budding novelist.  I got a kick out of reading that story, particularly the interaction with the Bank management team. 

Yes, my banking relationship I'm sure is a profound disappointment for Ch**e Bank, given it consists of a $325 savings balance and whatever I happen to have in my checking account at any moment.

We all worked out asses of getting to where we are and now the bankers want to "Help" us with our money.   We didn't win a lottery or some great uncle's inheritance.  We grew this.   I can't say it often enough how much I value this group. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on September 01, 2021, 05:55:00 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 01, 2021, 05:42:32 PM

Quote from: arcturus on September 01, 2021, 11:07:08 AM

LOL -- I think @Dicey is a budding novelist.  I got a kick out of reading that story, particularly the interaction with the Bank management team. 

Yes, my banking relationship I'm sure is a profound disappointment for Ch**e Bank, given it consists of a $325 savings balance and whatever I happen to have in my checking account at any moment.

We all worked out asses of getting to where we are and now the bankers want to "Help" us with our money.   We didn't win a lottery or some great uncle's inheritance.  We grew this.   I can't say it often enough how much I value this group.

Damn right, we did grow this....and then with a divorce several years back I did my best to lose a bunch of it....and then rebuild it. :-)

Good to hear from you @Bateaux , hope things are improving for you and you at least have line of sight to getting power back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on September 01, 2021, 11:49:30 PM

Quote from: arcturus on September 01, 2021, 05:55:00 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 01, 2021, 05:42:32 PM

Quote from: arcturus on September 01, 2021, 11:07:08 AM

LOL -- I think @Dicey is a budding novelist.  I got a kick out of reading that story, particularly the interaction with the Bank management team. 

Yes, my banking relationship I'm sure is a profound disappointment for Ch**e Bank, given it consists of a $325 savings balance and whatever I happen to have in my checking account at any moment.

We all worked out asses of getting to where we are and now the bankers want to "Help" us with our money.   We didn't win a lottery or some great uncle's inheritance.  We grew this.   I can't say it often enough how much I value this group.

Damn right, we did grow this....and then with a divorce several years back I did my best to lose a bunch of it....and then rebuild it. :-)

Good to hear from you @Bateaux , hope things are improving for you and you at least have line of sight to getting power back.

yeah - divorce here a too which kept me in work instead of quitting!! I appreciate it even more now. I was laid off from work this ear and as part of the deal I got a free financial advisor. Did a good job of analysis on my portfolio but naturally wanted paying in order to go forward. The fees were clear but a 4 digit payment to tell me that I'm mostly doing ok??? Thanks but no thanks. I like my money and I'll keep it if you don't mind!! (at least he understood and brought up SORR!)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 02, 2021, 08:11:58 AM

Somebody has to pay for those fancy lobbies in the banks.  I guess the idea is not to have you be that somebody.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on September 02, 2021, 08:25:12 AM

Quote from: pecunia on September 02, 2021, 08:11:58 AM

Somebody has to pay for those fancy lobbies in the banks.  I guess the idea is not to have you be that somebody.

Remember when the bank used to be the place to be and be seen?  Or am I really dating myself?  I remember my dad bringing me to the bank for the free coffee and donuts, and to stand in line and deposit his checks and I swear he used to know everyone.  I used to love getting my passbook stamped as I put in my deposits, and then got the $ from the nice tellers along with a lollipop.  Ah, the good old days.  Now it's so impersonal, albeit convenient to just use the ATM and online bank.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2KidFIRE on September 02, 2021, 12:30:29 PM

I remember my mom and dad taking me to First Interstate Bank (now Wells Fargo) back in 1993 when I was a kid to open up my first bank account.  It was so exciting to get that little bank book!  I remember writing out the deposit slips and then taking them to the teller with Christmas money, allowance, etc.  Balancing the deposits and withdrawals and watching my savings grow.  It was definitely a different feeling than now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 03, 2021, 10:52:43 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on September 02, 2021, 12:30:29 PM

I remember my mom and dad taking me to First Interstate Bank (now Wells Fargo) back in 1993 when I was a kid to open up my first bank account.  It was so exciting to get that little bank book!  I remember writing out the deposit slips and then taking them to the teller with Christmas money, allowance, etc.  Balancing the deposits and withdrawals and watching my savings grow.  It was definitely a different feeling than now.

I loved my little passbooks. My passport reminds me of them. Both were tickets to new experiences, I suppose.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on September 03, 2021, 12:35:14 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 03, 2021, 10:52:43 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on September 02, 2021, 12:30:29 PM

I remember my mom and dad taking me to First Interstate Bank (now Wells Fargo) back in 1993 when I was a kid to open up my first bank account.  It was so exciting to get that little bank book!  I remember writing out the deposit slips and then taking them to the teller with Christmas money, allowance, etc.  Balancing the deposits and withdrawals and watching my savings grow.  It was definitely a different feeling than now.

I loved my little passbooks. My passport reminds me of them. Both were tickets to new experiences, I suppose.

Like many parents today when teaching their kids about Roth, mine didn't tell me that you could take money out again. If I wanted to save up for a toy or album, that was saved up before cash went to the bank. Similarly, didn't really understand that you could cash the checks that people gave you: they were just deposited. That's what happened with Daddy's paycheck and that's what happened when I babysat. Putting money into savings was just the done thing, it was more of a black hole than an accumulator of future experiences. Until I used it for study abroad, but that was a pretty sudden decision, rather than a long term goal. I don't think I even knew that Americans did that 6 months before I did it, just foreigners came to the US.

Maybe I had my nose buried a bit too deep in those books from the moment I could read...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 05, 2021, 08:14:44 PM

Ida update.  One week post storm, one week without power.  The world is starting to come back alive in our region.  Went into work part of the day yesterday and part of the day today.  Trying to appease some critical customers.  We lack the services to restart operations, but have enough power to run a few shipments from bulk storages.  Is Force Majeure coming?  Maybe.  We'll do our best to avoid it.  Power was just restored across th river from us an hour ago.  The last big disaster my side got it back first, I was beginning to enjoy the dark sky.  Our road is small and was barely passable .  It's a bit safer to drive now, but huge trees are still on the lines and many poles down.  I'm keeping fingers crossed for Tuesday, maybe.  Our generator isn't big enough to run the whole house, only portable air conditioners.  I've at least slept very cool in the bedroom.   The rest of the house is 84 degrees now, it was 86.  I used fans and a battery operated leaf blower to blow some of the days hear out.  The river has become stagnant and there is a fish kill.  I just finished power washing thee inches of mud mixed with dead fish off the boat docks.  The smell is indescribable.  I'm so ready to move to the Florida house.  Louisiana is a harsh place to live.  Even without the destruction of a 150 mph hurricane, it's just not comfortable.  Twenty more months and we can leave.  The stock market definitely wants us to go.  We're at another new high.  Up 50K since the storm.  I can't tell that to people here.  I have almost no damage and on my trip to work I can see into people's attic's it trees have sliced their house like butter.  I am giving myself, money and things.  I will do more, I have to take care of my own family at the moment.  I'm much stronger and healthier than a week before the storm.  I've dropped at least 10 pounds with hard sweaty labor.  I honestly feel young again.  I've trained for this kid if my life.  It's a challenge but we're winning.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 05, 2021, 08:40:50 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 05, 2021, 08:14:44 PM

Ida update.  One week post storm, one week without power.  The world is starting to come back alive in our region.  Went into work part of the day yesterday and part of the day today.  Trying to appease some critical customers.  We lack the services to restart operations, but have enough power to run a few shipments from bulk storages.  Is Force Majeure coming?  Maybe.  We'll do our best to avoid it.  Power was just restored across th river from us an hour ago.  The last big disaster my side got it back first, I was beginning to enjoy the dark sky.  Our road is small and was barely passable .  It's a bit safer to drive now, but huge trees are still on the lines and many poles down.  I'm keeping fingers crossed for Tuesday, maybe.  Our generator isn't big enough to run the whole house, only portable air conditioners.  I've at least slept very cool in the bedroom.   The rest of the house is 84 degrees now, it was 86.  I used fans and a battery operated leaf blower to blow some of the days hear out.  The river has become stagnant and there is a fish kill.  I just finished power washing thee inches of mud mixed with dead fish off the boat docks.  The smell is indescribable.  I'm so ready to move to the Florida house.  Louisiana is a harsh place to live.  Even without the destruction of a 150 mph hurricane, it's just not comfortable.  Twenty more months and we can leave.  The stock market definitely wants us to go.  We're at another new high.  Up 50K since the storm.  I can't tell that to people here.  I have almost no damage and on my trip to work I can see into people's attic's it trees have sliced their house like butter.  I am giving myself, money and things.  I will do more, I have to take care of my own family at the moment.  I'm much stronger and healthier than a week before the storm.  I've dropped at least 10 pounds with hard sweaty labor.  I honestly feel young again.  I've trained for this kid if my life.  It's a challenge but we're winning.

Sounds pretty miserable.  Good you are doing OK and have a path out of there.

I had this thought about  Force Majeure.  We used to put that in as a standard clause as we wrote contracts.  I was told it was "acts of God."  It usually meant bad weather (like hurricanes), an earthquake or some similar thing.  I just wonder whether this weather is fully God caused any more.  Scientists seem to have other ideas.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on September 05, 2021, 09:28:53 PM

Quote from: pecunia on September 05, 2021, 08:40:50 PM

I had this thought about  Force Majeure.  We used to put that in as a standard clause as we wrote contracts.  I was told it was "acts of God."  It usually meant bad weather (like hurricanes), an earthquake or some similar thing.  I just wonder whether this weather is fully God caused any more.  Scientists seem to have other ideas.

You tell a Louisiana jury that they can get the insurance to fix their house if they rule that human-caused climate change is responsible and not an act of God and we might get a few more believers in science all of a sudden.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 05, 2021, 09:55:04 PM

Dang.  Should have proof read that post.  Tired fingers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on September 16, 2021, 08:51:59 AM

Quite here lately.

Just got to my new office.  It’s been interesting just talking briefly to people from a money standpoint.  Those of us who are older and not necessarily planning to stay in the Bay Area (or in my case at least as close into the city as I currently am so I can have a decent commute) are renting and content with it.  Those of us who are younger are buying lower end for the Bay Area houses out in places like Clayton because they don’t want to throw money away on rent.  I think the difference maybe that many of us “older folks” had issues selling in 2008 when we had to transfer (and these younger folks will have to transfer).  Also I know in the first 5-6 years you aren’t really paying down principal on a loan so yeah I’m “throwing away” 3k on rent but really it’s less than $1k that goes to principal on a $500k loan and I don’t have to fix a roof or anything like that.  I’d rather let my down payment money “pay me” about $5k/year while it sits in its investment account.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on September 16, 2021, 10:54:17 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 03, 2021, 10:52:43 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on September 02, 2021, 12:30:29 PM

I remember my mom and dad taking me to First Interstate Bank (now Wells Fargo) back in 1993 when I was a kid to open up my first bank account.  It was so exciting to get that little bank book!  I remember writing out the deposit slips and then taking them to the teller with Christmas money, allowance, etc.  Balancing the deposits and withdrawals and watching my savings grow.  It was definitely a different feeling than now.

I loved my little passbooks. My passport reminds me of them. Both were tickets to new experiences, I suppose.

I remember the experience of going to the bank and setting up a kiddie savings account with my birthday money. I remember it as a sad day. One moment I had birthday money and the next I had nothing. It took me many more years to mature sufficiently to understand delayed gratification and savings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on September 16, 2021, 11:18:54 AM

Quote from: pecunia on September 05, 2021, 08:40:50 PM

I had this thought about  Force Majeure.  We used to put that in as a standard clause as we wrote contracts.  I was told it was "acts of God."  It usually meant bad weather (like hurricanes), an earthquake or some similar thing.  I just wonder whether this weather is fully God caused any more.  Scientists seem to have other ideas.

Our customers (as in the customers of my employer) used Force Majeure en masse during covid.  It's why we all but shut down the fabs.  People were put on RTO (rotating time off without pay) which, of course had many of these well trained people on the market finding better full time work.  Now, many of the companies who invoked this are crying in their soup that they're line down.  Well yah, stupid.  You were short sighted and pulled the FM clause and stopped shipments made especially for you.  Too bad....you're at the back of the line now.  The auto industry was one of the big segments pulling this crap.  They are low margin business, so when things turned around and we had all fabs 24/7 again and orders to TSMC at max, their orders for low margin stuff became far less of an emergency for us. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 17, 2021, 12:26:07 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 16, 2021, 11:18:54 AM

Quote from: pecunia on September 05, 2021, 08:40:50 PM

I had this thought about  Force Majeure.  We used to put that in as a standard clause as we wrote contracts.  I was told it was "acts of God."  It usually meant bad weather (like hurricanes), an earthquake or some similar thing.  I just wonder whether this weather is fully God caused any more.  Scientists seem to have other ideas.

Our customers (as in the customers of my employer) used Force Majeure en masse during covid.  It's why we all but shut down the fabs.  People were put on RTO (rotating time off without pay) which, of course had many of these well trained people on the market finding better full time work.  Now, many of the companies who invoked this are crying in their soup that they're line down.  Well yah, stupid.  You were short sighted and pulled the FM clause and stopped shipments made especially for you.  Too bad....you're at the back of the line now.  The auto industry was one of the big segments pulling this crap.  They are low margin business, so when things turned around and we had all fabs 24/7 again and orders to TSMC at max, their orders for low margin stuff became far less of an emergency for us.

We're back up and running again.  Not 100 percent yet, but most of the snags are working out.  Customers are more likely impressed that materials flow is reestablished  this rapidly.   The low automotive output due to the ongoing chip crisis is also a player. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 18, 2021, 12:25:49 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on September 16, 2021, 10:54:17 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 03, 2021, 10:52:43 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on September 02, 2021, 12:30:29 PM

I remember my mom and dad taking me to First Interstate Bank (now Wells Fargo) back in 1993 when I was a kid to open up my first bank account.  It was so exciting to get that little bank book!  I remember writing out the deposit slips and then taking them to the teller with Christmas money, allowance, etc.  Balancing the deposits and withdrawals and watching my savings grow.  It was definitely a different feeling than now.

I loved my little passbooks. My passport reminds me of them. Both were tickets to new experiences, I suppose.

I remember the experience of going to the bank and setting up a kiddie savings account with my birthday money. I remember it as a sad day. One moment I had birthday money and the next I had nothing. It took me many more years to mature sufficiently to understand delayed gratification and savings.

And how'd that turn out? ;-)

I freaking loved my passbook. Having something official with my name and an account number in it was so stinking grown-up!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 18, 2021, 12:27:36 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 17, 2021, 12:26:07 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on September 16, 2021, 11:18:54 AM

Quote from: pecunia on September 05, 2021, 08:40:50 PM

I had this thought about  Force Majeure.  We used to put that in as a standard clause as we wrote contracts.  I was told it was "acts of God."  It usually meant bad weather (like hurricanes), an earthquake or some similar thing.  I just wonder whether this weather is fully God caused any more.  Scientists seem to have other ideas.

Our customers (as in the customers of my employer) used Force Majeure en masse during covid.  It's why we all but shut down the fabs.  People were put on RTO (rotating time off without pay) which, of course had many of these well trained people on the market finding better full time work.  Now, many of the companies who invoked this are crying in their soup that they're line down.  Well yah, stupid.  You were short sighted and pulled the FM clause and stopped shipments made especially for you.  Too bad....you're at the back of the line now.  The auto industry was one of the big segments pulling this crap.  They are low margin business, so when things turned around and we had all fabs 24/7 again and orders to TSMC at max, their orders for low margin stuff became far less of an emergency for us.

We're back up and running again.  Not 100 percent yet, but most of the snags are working out.  Customers are more likely impressed that materials flow is reestablished  this rapidly.   The low automotive output due to the ongoing chip crisis is also a player.

Glad to hear this! I fear it's not the same for many in your area, but it's nice to see rays of hope.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on September 18, 2021, 01:00:24 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 18, 2021, 12:25:49 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on September 16, 2021, 10:54:17 AM

Quote from: Dicey on September 03, 2021, 10:52:43 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on September 02, 2021, 12:30:29 PM

I remember my mom and dad taking me to First Interstate Bank (now Wells Fargo) back in 1993 when I was a kid to open up my first bank account.  It was so exciting to get that little bank book!  I remember writing out the deposit slips and then taking them to the teller with Christmas money, allowance, etc.  Balancing the deposits and withdrawals and watching my savings grow.  It was definitely a different feeling than now.

I loved my little passbooks. My passport reminds me of them. Both were tickets to new experiences, I suppose.

I remember the experience of going to the bank and setting up a kiddie savings account with my birthday money. I remember it as a sad day. One moment I had birthday money and the next I had nothing. It took me many more years to mature sufficiently to understand delayed gratification and savings.

And how'd that turn out? ;-)

I freaking loved my passbook. Having something official with my name and an account number in it was so stinking grown-up!

Haha.
It may have turned out lucratively. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on October 01, 2021, 03:22:03 AM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$*

A bit of bumpy month and took hit with stocks, crypto as well as gold also spent some money in one property that if we manage to get done and rent out at somepoint will show up as an investment but as of now it's still liability... hoping this month would be better... looking to buy the dip, but expecting both stocks and crypto to still go down so waiting and holding cash for now.

FIRE in 90 days

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 01, 2021, 07:22:52 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 01, 2021, 03:22:03 AM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$*

A bit of bumpy month and took hit with stocks, crypto as well as gold also spent some money in one property that if we manage to get done and rent out at somepoint will show up as an investment but as of now it's still liability... hoping this month would be better... looking to buy the dip, but expecting both stocks and crypto to still go down so waiting and holding cash for now.

Just Amazing!  Then there's the rest of us who just plod onward, but still slowly climbing a financial hill.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 01, 2021, 07:33:04 AM

Then there are the ones like me, blithely carrying on as usual because we're across the line and in it for the long haul. ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roboturner on October 01, 2021, 12:46:40 PM

Quote from: Roboturner on July 02, 2021, 09:04:27 AM

Spoiler: show

Q2 2016:
LNW: 528k
TNW: 720k

Q3 2016:
LNW: 652k
TNW: 845k

YE 2016:
LNW: 685k
TNW: 893k

Q1 2017:
LNW: 800k
TNW: 1001k

Q2 2017:
LNW: 845k
TNW: 1060k

Q3 2017:
LNW: 921k
TNW: 1142k

YE 2017:
LNW: 1,012k
TNW: 1,230k

Q1 2018:
LNW: 1.09 MM
TNW: 1.33 MM

Q2 2018:
LNW: 1.16 MM
TNW: 1.45 MM

Q3 2018:
LNW: 1.28 MM
TNW: 1.57 MM

YE 2018:
LNW: 1.14 MM
TNW: 1.43 MM

Q1 2019:
LNW: 1.41 MM
TNW: 1.71 MM

Q2 2019:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.78 MM

Q3 2019:
LNW: 1.64 MM
TNW: 1.82 MM

YE 2019:
LNW: 1.84 MM
TNW: 2.02 MM

Q1 2020:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.79 MM

Q2 2020:
LNW: 1.94 MM
TNW: 2.15 MM

Q3 2020:
LNW: 2.12 MM
TNW: 2.46 MM

YE 2020:
LNW: 2.40 MM
TNW: 2.74 MM

Q1 2021:
LNW: 2.69 MM
TNW: 3.00 MM

Q2 2021:
LNW: 2.52 MM
TNW: 3.30 MM

Q3 2021:
LNW: 3.08 MM
TNW: 3.54 MM

Sold our old home this Q, and are all moved in to the "forever" house.

In more exciting news, SO FIRE'd a couple weeks ago. I've got a bit more to see my golden handcuffs through, but feels like we're in the home stretch!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on October 01, 2021, 04:58:04 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 01, 2021, 03:22:03 AM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$*

A bit of bumpy month and took hit with stocks, crypto as well as gold also spent some money in one property that if we manage to get done and rent out at somepoint will show up as an investment but as of now it's still liability... hoping this month would be better... looking to buy the dip, but expecting both stocks and crypto to still go down so waiting and holding cash for now.

I'd take down 1% in September and up 6-7% since June -- well done, Finntastic!

My story is a lackluster one -- I'm up less than 1% since June -- and that includes my contributions!  I partially blame my investment strategy of being a little heavier allocated to mid caps vs S&P500.  According to my spreadsheet:

June:  $2,159 Invested; $2,569 NW
Sep:  $2,171 Invested; $2,594 NW

I wish I could say I felt like the outlook was brighter, but not sure that is the case.

Hope you all had more success than I did over the past 3 months!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on October 02, 2021, 07:42:57 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 01, 2021, 03:22:03 AM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$*

A bit of bumpy month and took hit with stocks, crypto as well as gold also spent some money in one property that if we manage to get done and rent out at somepoint will show up as an investment but as of now it's still liability... hoping this month would be better... looking to buy the dip, but expecting both stocks and crypto to still go down so waiting and holding cash for now.

Wait, what happened between April and May? I missed something there

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on October 02, 2021, 10:37:37 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on October 02, 2021, 07:42:57 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 01, 2021, 03:22:03 AM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$*

A bit of bumpy month and took hit with stocks, crypto as well as gold also spent some money in one property that if we manage to get done and rent out at somepoint will show up as an investment but as of now it's still liability... hoping this month would be better... looking to buy the dip, but expecting both stocks and crypto to still go down so waiting and holding cash for now.

Wait, what happened between April and May? I missed something there

That is where I added my company shares into the calculations as I sold some so there was value/price calculated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on October 03, 2021, 04:25:45 PM

Ah. Congrats on the windfall! Clearly you are doing well for yourself

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on October 03, 2021, 10:52:29 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on October 03, 2021, 04:25:45 PM

Ah. Congrats on the windfall! Clearly you are doing well for yourself

thank you but it's difficult times, first giving out control of the company I setup and to take backseat as well as learning to live from investments instead of work and I guess learn to live "retired" life so right now doesn't feel like doing well, but I'm sure over time I will figure things out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 04, 2021, 07:25:20 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 03, 2021, 10:52:29 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on October 03, 2021, 04:25:45 PM

Ah. Congrats on the windfall! Clearly you are doing well for yourself

thank you but it's difficult times, first giving out control of the company I setup and to take backseat as well as learning to live from investments instead of work and I guess learn to live "retired" life so right now doesn't feel like doing well, but I'm sure over time I will figure things out.

So did you have to retire / sell the company or was this because you hit your number and followed through on ER? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on October 04, 2021, 09:08:29 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 03, 2021, 10:52:29 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on October 03, 2021, 04:25:45 PM

Ah. Congrats on the windfall! Clearly you are doing well for yourself

thank you but it's difficult times, first giving out control of the company I setup and to take backseat as well as learning to live from investments instead of work and I guess learn to live "retired" life so right now doesn't feel like doing well, but I'm sure over time I will figure things out.

It is a big change and changes, even good ones, can be tough. I spent my first year+ after quitting pretty miserable when Covid completely changed what I could do. I’m finally getting my head out of that now and figuring out what this RE thing is all about. I hope you work through our adjustment and come out happy on the other end.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 04, 2021, 08:46:55 PM

@Dicey, you should have told me I was moving to NIMBY-vile with Marin, well at least Nextdoor is entertaining.  The locals are very upset about S9, they say our neighborhoods could soon look like where you live.

Also I’m kind of hoping for the market to tank enough to do some tax loss harvesting. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 04, 2021, 10:59:00 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on October 04, 2021, 08:46:55 PM

@Dicey, you should have told me I was moving to NIMBY-vile with Marin, well at least Nextdoor is entertaining.  The locals are very upset about S9, they say our neighborhoods could soon look like where you live.

Also I’m kind of hoping for the market to tank enough to do some tax loss harvesting.

Yeah, where I live looks just fine, thankyouverymuch. We also have more Open Space than Marin County :-P

Oh, and we have plenty of NIMBYs here, too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on October 08, 2021, 04:47:44 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 04, 2021, 07:25:20 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 03, 2021, 10:52:29 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on October 03, 2021, 04:25:45 PM

Ah. Congrats on the windfall! Clearly you are doing well for yourself

thank you but it's difficult times, first giving out control of the company I setup and to take backseat as well as learning to live from investments instead of work and I guess learn to live "retired" life so right now doesn't feel like doing well, but I'm sure over time I will figure things out.

So did you have to retire / sell the company or was this because you hit your number and followed through on ER?

No I didn't have to, but at this time I've already lost the full control of the company and I was in a situation were I couldn't make decisions for the company without approval from the board and this kind of blocked any growth so I wasn't happy anymore and therefor decided that I got to sell and leave (retire).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on October 08, 2021, 04:49:32 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on October 04, 2021, 09:08:29 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 03, 2021, 10:52:29 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on October 03, 2021, 04:25:45 PM

Ah. Congrats on the windfall! Clearly you are doing well for yourself

thank you but it's difficult times, first giving out control of the company I setup and to take backseat as well as learning to live from investments instead of work and I guess learn to live "retired" life so right now doesn't feel like doing well, but I'm sure over time I will figure things out.

It is a big change and changes, even good ones, can be tough. I spent my first year+ after quitting pretty miserable when Covid completely changed what I could do. I’m finally getting my head out of that now and figuring out what this RE thing is all about. I hope you work through our adjustment and come out happy on the other end.

Thank you I'm sure I will, I guess Covid also have a part to play for me as it's kind of limits, what happens next... anyway I do have some things to keep me busy for next 3 months and will see then what will I do next.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on October 13, 2021, 02:07:08 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 08, 2021, 04:47:44 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 04, 2021, 07:25:20 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 03, 2021, 10:52:29 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on October 03, 2021, 04:25:45 PM

Ah. Congrats on the windfall! Clearly you are doing well for yourself

thank you but it's difficult times, first giving out control of the company I setup and to take backseat as well as learning to live from investments instead of work and I guess learn to live "retired" life so right now doesn't feel like doing well, but I'm sure over time I will figure things out.

So did you have to retire / sell the company or was this because you hit your number and followed through on ER?

No I didn't have to, but at this time I've already lost the full control of the company and I was in a situation were I couldn't make decisions for the company without approval from the board and this kind of blocked any growth so I wasn't happy anymore and therefor decided that I got to sell and leave (retire).

Hmmm.  I guess I was in an opposite situation where it was just me owning/running/in charge of/at risk of/responsible for everything in the company.....and believe me I was happy to hand off all of that in a sale after the nest egg was made.  I'm frankly enjoying being able to say "I just work here" as I fade away now in my consulting role to integrate the Co. over the last couple years.  Not having to worry about some client not a paying a huge bill, or suing me because some project went poorly, is more than enough for me to be happy handing over all the control (again, after the retirement nut has been made, the earlier risk obviously got me there a lot faster and made the egg a lot larger than it otherwise would have been, but I can't say I miss at all being where the buck stops)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: CANStache on October 19, 2021, 11:24:12 AM

It's been longer than I intended since I chimed in here, but I guess I'll go for an almost-Halloween update.  Oct 2020 had my wife and I at $2.26M, which was growing faster than I expected it could considering she had left her executive job earlier that year, so we were dealing with one income, 3 kids including 1 in university, and a woman with some serious free time :)

One year and some rather crazy markets later, we're at $2.63M.  My wife has just decided to re-enter the workforce due to some boredom, the expectation of her least favourite weather to come, and an exciting opportunity from an old friend.  As this position will pay a new record salary for either of us (almost $200K) it should provide some great investment fodder, considering we've continued to save on just a single salary all this time.  We'll see what the next year brings, good luck to all of you on your journey!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 20, 2021, 03:17:32 AM

Quote from: CANStache on October 19, 2021, 11:24:12 AM

It's been longer than I intended since I chimed in here, but I guess I'll go for an almost-Halloween update.  Oct 2020 had my wife and I at $2.26M, which was growing faster than I expected it could considering she had left her executive job earlier that year, so we were dealing with one income, 3 kids including 1 in university, and a woman with some serious free time :)

One year and some rather crazy markets later, we're at $2.63M.  My wife has just decided to re-enter the workforce due to some boredom, the expectation of her least favourite weather to come, and an exciting opportunity from an old friend.  As this position will pay a new record salary for either of us (almost $200K) it should provide some great investment fodder, considering we've continued to save on just a single salary all this time.  We'll see what the next year brings, good luck to all of you on your journey!

Well done! Do you have any plans of retiring?

It's been over a year since I retired and our stash has grown substantially on my wife's salary alone. She was considered to be a "flight risk" in her company so she was given a pretty substantial retention bonus which she will be getting by the end of the year. This is all great but it looks like I will not get opportunity to do any Roth conversions until she retires :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on October 20, 2021, 05:15:37 AM

With all the inflation, can we update the title to $2.2M to $4.4M....and beyond!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on October 20, 2021, 11:52:24 AM

The inflation rate is more than 10%, probably at around 100% for some daily items.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on October 20, 2021, 12:57:01 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 20, 2021, 11:52:24 AM

The inflation rate is more than 10%, probably at around 100% for some daily items.

I monitor my expenses pretty closely. I'm still spending less on a monthly basis than pre-covid.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on October 20, 2021, 02:10:28 PM

I’m not tracking a damn thing these days, though I’ll do my end of the year accounting as usual. We bought and are remodeling a house so $$ is just flying out the window.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 21, 2021, 09:23:18 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on October 20, 2021, 02:10:28 PM

I’m not tracking a damn thing these days, though I’ll do my end of the year accounting as usual. We bought and are remodeling a house so $$ is just flying out the window.

To a lesser extent that was why my last 2 months were expensive.  When you move majorly, there maybe some things you just need to buy.  I hope I’m done with that for a while.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on October 22, 2021, 07:50:33 AM

I'm back to TNW $4.8M & LNW $3.8M with the market highs.  Along with my bonus in Feb '22, as long as things at least hold steady I should be FIRing then right around my $5M/$4M goal (nothing more than a recent round number goal....as others have said $5M in Feb may be worth less than $4.8M today anyway ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 22, 2021, 10:10:57 AM

Quote from: dividendman on October 20, 2021, 12:57:01 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 20, 2021, 11:52:24 AM

The inflation rate is more than 10%, probably at around 100% for some daily items.

I monitor my expenses pretty closely. I'm still spending less on a monthly basis than pre-covid.

I don't monitor closely, but discretionary items go on our credit cards and those balances are significantly higher month after month than they were both pre-Covid and, after a dip for the first year, now post-Covid.  As far as I can tell, our lifestyle hasn't inflated :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 22, 2021, 10:20:48 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on October 22, 2021, 07:50:33 AM

I'm back to TNW $4.8M & LNW $3.8M with the market highs.  Along with my bonus in Feb '22, as long as things at least hold steady I should be FIRing then right around my $5M/$4M goal (nothing more than a recent round number goal....as others have said $5M in Feb may be worth less than $4.8M today anyway ;-)

Conglaturations :)  Are you ER'ing because you hit your number or are there other reasons?

I'm more set on retiring at a certain age / sending my kids off as opposed to a number, but it's a nice choice to have.  Numbers are beyond FI these days, but I don't mind working whilst the kids are wrapping up HS.  Being ER but still tied down parenting doesn't sounds as appealing as having a little extra FI and traveling lavishly once it is just DW and I...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on October 22, 2021, 10:27:01 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 22, 2021, 10:20:48 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on October 22, 2021, 07:50:33 AM

I'm back to TNW $4.8M & LNW $3.8M with the market highs.  Along with my bonus in Feb '22, as long as things at least hold steady I should be FIRing then right around my $5M/$4M goal (nothing more than a recent round number goal....as others have said $5M in Feb may be worth less than $4.8M today anyway ;-)

Conglaturations :)  Are you ER'ing because you hit your number or are there other reasons?

I'm more set on retiring at a certain age / sending my kids off as opposed to a number, but it's a nice choice to have.  Numbers are beyond FI these days, but I don't mind working whilst the kids are wrapping up HS.  Being ER but still tied down parenting doesn't sounds as appealing as having a little extra FI and traveling lavishly once it is just DW and I...

You kind of have a point there on ER while tied down isn't as fun.  I keep dreaming of trips, but the school schedules don't line up for all of us to go at one time.  DH working means not enough vacation to spend. I suppose I could take the kids without him, but I think he'd balk at working just to fund my fun. ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on October 22, 2021, 11:57:27 AM

Quote from: couponvan on October 22, 2021, 10:27:01 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 22, 2021, 10:20:48 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on October 22, 2021, 07:50:33 AM

I'm back to TNW $4.8M & LNW $3.8M with the market highs.  Along with my bonus in Feb '22, as long as things at least hold steady I should be FIRing then right around my $5M/$4M goal (nothing more than a recent round number goal....as others have said $5M in Feb may be worth less than $4.8M today anyway ;-)

Conglaturations :)  Are you ER'ing because you hit your number or are there other reasons?

I'm more set on retiring at a certain age / sending my kids off as opposed to a number, but it's a nice choice to have.  Numbers are beyond FI these days, but I don't mind working whilst the kids are wrapping up HS.  Being ER but still tied down parenting doesn't sounds as appealing as having a little extra FI and traveling lavishly once it is just DW and I...

You kind of have a point there on ER while tied down isn't as fun.  I keep dreaming of trips, but the school schedules don't line up for all of us to go at one time.  DH working means not enough vacation to spend. I suppose I could take the kids without him, but I think he'd balk at working just to fund my fun. ;-)

Mine is totally the result of a career path that makes me feel good about my choices (work hard, start own business, struggle with business, business takes off and I blow past my FIRE number, sell off business and consult to help integrate employees so they can continue, see former employees succeeding/thriving in new business, retire).  I had always sought ER, and my number was never much more than half of what I have now. The surge in NW all happened at once with a couple great business years and I found myself not being able to just quit on that day, b/c there were contracts, employees, etc.  THis all added a few years to my working that I would rather it not have, but the fringe benefit of course is quite a bit more money for RE (unlike many on this website myself and my family have no problem finding things to spend the 'extra' money on).  I'm starting to really get excited now that its closing in.  I will be a tied down parent to my youngest for another 5 years or so but that sounds totally fine to me....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 22, 2021, 12:11:11 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on October 22, 2021, 11:57:27 AM

Quote from: couponvan on October 22, 2021, 10:27:01 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 22, 2021, 10:20:48 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on October 22, 2021, 07:50:33 AM

I'm back to TNW $4.8M & LNW $3.8M with the market highs.  Along with my bonus in Feb '22, as long as things at least hold steady I should be FIRing then right around my $5M/$4M goal (nothing more than a recent round number goal....as others have said $5M in Feb may be worth less than $4.8M today anyway ;-)

Conglaturations :)  Are you ER'ing because you hit your number or are there other reasons?

I'm more set on retiring at a certain age / sending my kids off as opposed to a number, but it's a nice choice to have.  Numbers are beyond FI these days, but I don't mind working whilst the kids are wrapping up HS.  Being ER but still tied down parenting doesn't sounds as appealing as having a little extra FI and traveling lavishly once it is just DW and I...

You kind of have a point there on ER while tied down isn't as fun.  I keep dreaming of trips, but the school schedules don't line up for all of us to go at one time.  DH working means not enough vacation to spend. I suppose I could take the kids without him, but I think he'd balk at working just to fund my fun. ;-)

Mine is totally the result of a career path that makes me feel good about my choices (work hard, start own business, struggle with business, business takes off and I blow past my FIRE number, sell off business and consult to help integrate employees so they can continue, see former employees succeeding/thriving in new business, retire).  I had always sought ER, and my number was never much more than half of what I have now. The surge in NW all happened at once with a couple great business years and I found myself not being able to just quit on that day, b/c there were contracts, employees, etc.  THis all added a few years to my working that I would rather it not have, but the fringe benefit of course is quite a bit more money for RE (unlike many on this website myself and my family have no problem finding things to spend the 'extra' money on).  I'm starting to really get excited now that its closing in.  I will be a tied down parent to my youngest for another 5 years or so but that sounds totally fine to me....

Interesting stuff.  I must admit, I get a little dopamine rush still as I sit in the office today thinking about ER...  But I'm also guilty of enjoying a recent retiree's Facebook page chronicling his sailboat adventures in Australia.  This point in life right now seems good enough for me, so I just ignore the numbers and pretend that working for a paycheck is 'important and necessary'.  It also provides a nice cover story for why I can't feed the neighbor's pet this week or visit with the in-laws during my precious holiday vacation :)

Working is optional, which is awfully nice, but I vote for continuing to work for the time being, screw the big numbers that keep getting bigger!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on October 22, 2021, 12:30:45 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 22, 2021, 12:11:11 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on October 22, 2021, 11:57:27 AM

Quote from: couponvan on October 22, 2021, 10:27:01 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 22, 2021, 10:20:48 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on October 22, 2021, 07:50:33 AM

I'm back to TNW $4.8M & LNW $3.8M with the market highs.  Along with my bonus in Feb '22, as long as things at least hold steady I should be FIRing then right around my $5M/$4M goal (nothing more than a recent round number goal....as others have said $5M in Feb may be worth less than $4.8M today anyway ;-)

Conglaturations :)  Are you ER'ing because you hit your number or are there other reasons?

I'm more set on retiring at a certain age / sending my kids off as opposed to a number, but it's a nice choice to have.  Numbers are beyond FI these days, but I don't mind working whilst the kids are wrapping up HS.  Being ER but still tied down parenting doesn't sounds as appealing as having a little extra FI and traveling lavishly once it is just DW and I...

You kind of have a point there on ER while tied down isn't as fun.  I keep dreaming of trips, but the school schedules don't line up for all of us to go at one time.  DH working means not enough vacation to spend. I suppose I could take the kids without him, but I think he'd balk at working just to fund my fun. ;-)

Mine is totally the result of a career path that makes me feel good about my choices (work hard, start own business, struggle with business, business takes off and I blow past my FIRE number, sell off business and consult to help integrate employees so they can continue, see former employees succeeding/thriving in new business, retire).  I had always sought ER, and my number was never much more than half of what I have now. The surge in NW all happened at once with a couple great business years and I found myself not being able to just quit on that day, b/c there were contracts, employees, etc.  THis all added a few years to my working that I would rather it not have, but the fringe benefit of course is quite a bit more money for RE (unlike many on this website myself and my family have no problem finding things to spend the 'extra' money on).  I'm starting to really get excited now that its closing in.  I will be a tied down parent to my youngest for another 5 years or so but that sounds totally fine to me....

Interesting stuff.  I must admit, I get a little dopamine rush still as I sit in the office today thinking about ER...  But I'm also guilty of enjoying a recent retiree's Facebook page chronicling his sailboat adventures in Australia.  This point in life right now seems good enough for me, so I just ignore the numbers and pretend that working for a paycheck is 'important and necessary'.  It also provides a nice cover story for why I can't feed the neighbor's pet this week or visit with the in-laws during my precious holiday vacation :)

Working is optional, which is awfully nice, but I vote for continuing to work for the time being, screw the big numbers that keep getting bigger!

The bigger numbers can help.  That actually reminds me I left out one more fringe benefit of retiring now versus 3-4 years ago when I hit "MY" number... back then my (SAHM) spouse would still break out in a cold sweat when I would talk about retiring, she just didn't feel comfortable ending such great income at such a young age compared to the norm.  The fact I'm turning 50 now (which doesnt seem so incredibly odd to retire at), there's a ton of money sitting there, and she's had 3 more years to wait for me to finish work for the day or put off a vaca/house repair/house project b/c I was too busy with work, she's now pushing me to pull the trigger.... which is a whole lot nicer situation

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on October 24, 2021, 08:07:30 AM

Its interesting, although I agree that retiring at 50 may not seem that incredibly early to many/most on this thread (excluding me, I'm more in the 56-57 range :-)), what is amazing about it to me is that the standard SS retirement age for those of us in this age group (which seems like the majority on this thread) is 67 years old!   Think about that for a moment....I simply cannot imagine working until 67, let alone trying to perform in my current job / with my current employer at that age.  I know every one of us has earned the right to retire early thru hard work, discipline, etc., but geez, to think about having another 15 years of work in front of me would be kind of daunting/depressing at my present age.  Like some of you, my goal for the next few years while I'm employed is to do some things/take some trips, etc., that I would otherwise probably struggle (mentally) to do without a significant salary income.  Maybe I'm just reflecting on things with the Thanksgiving season coming into view -- but geezus we are fortunate that we had the foresight to save early and often!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 24, 2021, 10:17:28 AM

Quote from: arcturus on October 24, 2021, 08:07:30 AM

Its interesting, although I agree that retiring at 50 may not seem that incredibly early to many/most on this thread (excluding me, I'm more in the 56-57 range :-)), what is amazing about it to me is that the standard SS retirement age for those of us in this age group (which seems like the majority on this thread) is 67 years old!   Think about that for a moment....I simply cannot imagine working until 67, let alone trying to perform in my current job / with my current employer at that age.  I know every one of us has earned the right to retire early thru hard work, discipline, etc., but geez, to think about having another 15 years of work in front of me would be kind of daunting/depressing at my present age.  Like some of you, my goal for the next few years while I'm employed is to do some things/take some trips, etc., that I would otherwise probably struggle (mentally) to do without a significant salary income.  Maybe I'm just reflecting on things with the Thanksgiving season coming into view -- but geezus we are fortunate that we had the foresight to save early and often!

Yes only 18% of people retire before 60 and 5% before age 55.  We are more “normal” mutants on a forum of mutants.

Well a higher salary in CA with higher taxes equals going back to a Traditional TSP instead of Roth.  I don’t need the cash flow, but my financial advisor was able to make me see it was the correct decision.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 24, 2021, 11:06:35 AM

I logged into my 401k today to download a statement. Its retirement calculator says I’m at 107% of needed funds for my planned fat FIRE. I had plugged 50 into the calculator, and I don’t think it would accept anything younger. It seems like we just hit $1M NW, and now we just passed $3M. While I know I could FIRE or downshift at any time, there are things I still want to accomplish.  And seeing mid 6-figures roll in each year to add to the stash is reassuring. So we’re carrying on… for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoePublic3.14 on October 24, 2021, 07:58:15 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 22, 2021, 10:10:57 AM

Quote from: dividendman on October 20, 2021, 12:57:01 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on October 20, 2021, 11:52:24 AM

The inflation rate is more than 10%, probably at around 100% for some daily items.

I monitor my expenses pretty closely. I'm still spending less on a monthly basis than pre-covid.

I don't monitor closely, but discretionary items go on our credit cards and those balances are significantly higher month after month than they were both pre-Covid and, after a dip for the first year, now post-Covid.  As far as I can tell, our lifestyle hasn't inflated :)

This is about as close as I track also, and have seen the same. Is what it is I suppose.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 25, 2021, 07:42:32 AM

It's been a full year since I retired - my last paycheck was at the end of September 2020 so here's an update in our finances: Our invested net worth (i.e. IRA, 401k and post tax accounts) has grown from $5M to $6.2M. This increase is due to my wife's salary, a chunk of her RSUs vesting and market appreciation. My wife's company got nervous that she might leave in the middle of the year so they are paying her a retention bonus at the end of this year - I'm not complaining :-)

We did not hold back on spending! We did a major home renovation project right after I retired to create a comfortable study and space for my hobbies (among other things). Bought a new Honda CR-V and gave my ten year old Prius to my older daughter. Paid for the first semester of my younger daughter's college. Not a whole lot of travel however, just a few short domestic trips.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 25, 2021, 02:24:01 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on October 25, 2021, 07:42:32 AM

It's been a full year since I retired - my last paycheck was at the end of September 2020 so here's an update in our finances: Our invested net worth (i.e. IRA, 401k and post tax accounts) has grown from $5M to $6.2M. This increase is due to my wife's salary, a chunk of her RSUs vesting and market appreciation. My wife's company got nervous that she might leave in the middle of the year so they are paying her a retention bonus at the end of this year - I'm not complaining :-)

We did not hold back on spending! We did a major home renovation project right after I retired to create a comfortable study and space for my hobbies (among other things). Bought a new Honda CR-V and gave my ten year old Prius to my older daughter. Paid for the first semester of my younger daughter's college. Not a whole lot of travel however, just a few short domestic trips.

Wait you have TWICE as much money as I do and you bought a CRV?.. I at least bought a Passport so I think you should do your duty and stimulate the economy a bit more!

Well done of the stash, thats very impressive!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 25, 2021, 03:34:57 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 25, 2021, 02:24:01 PM

Wait you have TWICE as much money as I do and you bought a CRV?.. I at least bought a Passport so I think you should do your duty and stimulate the economy a bit more!

Well done of the stash, thats very impressive!

Thanks - the stash is mainly the result of 28 years of steady index fund investing (JL Collins is right). My main achievement was simply staying in the game long enough to allow compounding to do it's magic.

Regarding the CRV: I was willing to spend up to $50k and looked at every possible alternative and test drove a few of them. But none of them came close to meeting my needs as well as the CRV. Once you have leather, sunroof and Apple CarPlay, the other feature seem pretty much irrelevant :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on October 26, 2021, 08:01:56 AM

It is never inappropriate to buy below one's "station in life" because of savings.  I'll use myself as the example here with reasons that high priced cars don't "fit" me in a lot of ways.  We just crossed over $3.6M and have another couple hundred grand in checking.

Cars considered because I'd really like them and reason I won't consider them:

high maintenance cost or poor reliability:
Gallardo
R8
Vantage
Cayman/Boxster
BMW (would only consider n/a straight 6)
Audi
Mercedes
MINI

No manual:
Lexus
Supra
NSX
GT-R

Under strong consideration:
Lotus Emira 6 manual (toyota drivetrain)
2022 Subaru BRZ 6 manual

With the Emira being new and under high demand, the added dealer markup will likely throw that car out of my consideration.  Honestly, the BRZ/86 is a nicely improved car for a worldwide market of 345 people, so after dealers do their markup for 6 months and realize they've sold zero cars, they'll become cheap enough.  I personally like no sunroof and manual seats, so whatever trim I can get those works for me.  I have found that limited Subarus (leather) tend to be far better built than non limited (have had several of both), but the roof/seat are more important to me.  So I guess I'm looking to buy beneath my station in life.

And to be honest, I'm considering just getting some nicer wheels and summer tires for my Crosstrek and calling it a day.  I really like the car and don't need more power.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 26, 2021, 03:37:28 PM

We'll buy a new car in the next 18 months.  It's probably the Acura MDX, Lexus 350 or Honda Pilot.  I want a real transmission and non turbo V-6.  It needs to haul 4 bicycles on a hitch, tow 3500 pounds, be long enough for seat down sleeping inside and carry 6 passengers when needed.  I'd love an EV but don't think we'll see that in 18 months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on October 26, 2021, 03:45:51 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 26, 2021, 03:37:28 PM

We'll buy a new car in the next 18 months.  It's probably the Acura MDX, Lexus 350 or Honda Pilot.  I want a real transmission and non turbo V-6.  It needs to haul 4 bicycles on a hitch, tow 3500 pounds, be long enough for seat down sleeping inside and carry 6 passengers when needed.  I'd love an EV but don't think we'll see that in 18 months.

Just got ourselves a new Passport Sport model.. We love it!

I bought a $12 circuit from Amazon to push the "A" button that stops the damn thing doing the auto stop-start thing. Tows 3500lb (5000 with the tranny cooler) .

It goes like stink in "Sport" mode and they seem to have fixed the 9 speed auto.

The Passport is long enough to sleep in but I made a head rest extension of around 10 inches for the rear seat backs.. This provides a full 6'-4" of sleeping length. The Pilot is 6" longer than the Passport.

You can find all the mods I've done so far on my journal if you haven't seen it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 26, 2021, 10:42:28 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on October 26, 2021, 03:45:51 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 26, 2021, 03:37:28 PM

We'll buy a new car in the next 18 months.  It's probably the Acura MDX, Lexus 350 or Honda Pilot.  I want a real transmission and non turbo V-6.  It needs to haul 4 bicycles on a hitch, tow 3500 pounds, be long enough for seat down sleeping inside and carry 6 passengers when needed.  I'd love an EV but don't think we'll see that in 18 months.

Just got ourselves a new Passport Sport model.. We love it!

I bought a $12 circuit from Amazon to push the "A" button that stops the damn thing doing the auto stop-start thing. Tows 3500lb (5000 with the tranny cooler) .

It goes like stink in "Sport" mode and they seem to have fixed the 9 speed auto.

The Passport is long enough to sleep in but I made a head rest extension of around 10 inches for the rear seat backs.. This provides a full 6'-4" of sleeping length. The Pilot is 6" longer than the Passport.

You can find all the mods I've done so far on my journal if you haven't seen it.

I'll have to look at your journal.  Pilot is the most likely candidate unless we find some unforseen deal on the MDX.  Passport does share many features.  Rock solid vehicles.  The Lexus is no slouch either.  Retirement car for my wife.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 27, 2021, 01:09:53 AM

You all could go with the Odyssey. Same drivetrain and towing capacity as the Pilot and a full 8 feet of room in the back to sleep. Of course, the body style is the dreaded minivan…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 27, 2021, 07:15:59 AM

Two commas in my TSP (401k) So I can now go back to to not checking it every morning after every good market day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: sixwings on October 27, 2021, 09:43:02 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 27, 2021, 01:09:53 AM

You all could go with the Odyssey. Same drivetrain and towing capacity as the Pilot and a full 8 feet of room in the back to sleep. Of course, the body style is the dreaded minivan…

Nothing says more about your virility than a mini-van.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 27, 2021, 10:47:20 AM

Quote from: sixwings on October 27, 2021, 09:43:02 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 27, 2021, 01:09:53 AM

You all could go with the Odyssey. Same drivetrain and towing capacity as the Pilot and a full 8 feet of room in the back to sleep. Of course, the body style is the dreaded minivan…

Nothing says more about your virility than a mini-van.

I'd love the Odyssey or Sienna mini-van.  The wife says no way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 27, 2021, 01:31:27 PM

Quote from: sixwings on October 27, 2021, 09:43:02 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 27, 2021, 01:09:53 AM

You all could go with the Odyssey. Same drivetrain and towing capacity as the Pilot and a full 8 feet of room in the back to sleep. Of course, the body style is the dreaded minivan…

Nothing says more about your virility than a mini-van.

Yeah, sure, that’s what I tell myself when I drive ours.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on October 27, 2021, 01:42:26 PM

Quote from: sixwings on October 27, 2021, 09:43:02 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 27, 2021, 01:09:53 AM

You all could go with the Odyssey. Same drivetrain and towing capacity as the Pilot and a full 8 feet of room in the back to sleep. Of course, the body style is the dreaded minivan…

Nothing says more about your virility than a mini-van.

Legit spit laughing reading that. My hubs was glad to trade the Odyssey for a Pilot. I made him keep my old baby wagon!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on October 28, 2021, 04:34:28 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 27, 2021, 10:47:20 AM

Quote from: sixwings on October 27, 2021, 09:43:02 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 27, 2021, 01:09:53 AM

You all could go with the Odyssey. Same drivetrain and towing capacity as the Pilot and a full 8 feet of room in the back to sleep. Of course, the body style is the dreaded minivan…

Nothing says more about your virility than a mini-van.

I'd love the Odyssey or Sienna mini-van.  The wife says no way.

That made me laugh because usually the Wife wants the mini-van . I had to talk my DW into our first Sienna years ago and with the kids here just wasnt a better vehicle. We beat down 2 of them and they were great vehicles to say the least.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on October 28, 2021, 06:54:27 AM

Quote from: sixwings on October 27, 2021, 09:43:02 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 27, 2021, 01:09:53 AM

You all could go with the Odyssey. Same drivetrain and towing capacity as the Pilot and a full 8 feet of room in the back to sleep. Of course, the body style is the dreaded minivan…

Nothing says more about your virility than a mini-van.

If life made sense it really would be a sign of virility.....afterall, it would mean one is capable of producing offspring to fill up said van.   And strong and confident enough to drive said van, but noooooo the Porsche guy gets all the attention, who is probably sterile.  🤔 🤣🤣

In all seriousness, the minivan is a pretty perfect well rounded vehicle...ok gas mileage, sits up high, comfortable, decent performance, holds many passengers, can fit a sheet of drywall or just about any other cargo, etc etc...........OTHER THAN THE FACT ITS A GOD DAMN MINIVAN!!!!

I have a 2007 Ody that is now our backup/utility vehicle that has seved us well but will probably be sold in the near future bc it gets less and less use as time goes on.   But I do like having a backup vehicle for when the other older vehicle needs work.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on October 28, 2021, 11:24:35 AM

I am very firmly in the No Minivan camp, even with three kids.

I showed my husband last weekend how the Tesla S has seating in the trunk for kids with 5-point harnesses. That would be something I would consider if we needed to haul more children. But for now my GTI is the perfect car for me and I hope it lasts forever. At the rate we had been putting miles on lit cars this last year it will probably last another 20 years. Hah

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 28, 2021, 08:58:17 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on October 28, 2021, 06:54:27 AM

In all seriousness, the minivan is a pretty perfect well rounded vehicle...ok gas mileage, sits up high, comfortable, decent performance, holds many passengers, can fit a sheet of drywall or just about any other cargo, etc etc...........OTHER THAN THE FACT ITS A GOD DAMN MINIVAN!!!!

This.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: CANStache on October 29, 2021, 02:36:14 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on October 20, 2021, 03:17:32 AM

Quote from: CANStache on October 19, 2021, 11:24:12 AM

It's been longer than I intended since I chimed in here, but I guess I'll go for an almost-Halloween update.  Oct 2020 had my wife and I at $2.26M, which was growing faster than I expected it could considering she had left her executive job earlier that year, so we were dealing with one income, 3 kids including 1 in university, and a woman with some serious free time :)

One year and some rather crazy markets later, we're at $2.63M.  My wife has just decided to re-enter the workforce due to some boredom, the expectation of her least favourite weather to come, and an exciting opportunity from an old friend.  As this position will pay a new record salary for either of us (almost $200K) it should provide some great investment fodder, considering we've continued to save on just a single salary all this time.  We'll see what the next year brings, good luck to all of you on your journey!

Well done! Do you have any plans of retiring?

It's been over a year since I retired and our stash has grown substantially on my wife's salary alone. She was considered to be a "flight risk" in her company so she was given a pretty substantial retention bonus which she will be getting by the end of the year. This is all great but it looks like I will not get opportunity to do any Roth conversions until she retires :-)

We do, in 2 or perhaps 3 years.  So 50 or 51 yrs old.

It's always great to hear about those like yourselves who exceed their financial expectations post-retirement.  Granted, this has been an easy year/couple of years/decade to do that, considering how the markets have treated us, but just the same, I want to enjoy my life and my money and that means hitting that next phase of my life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: KitchenSink on October 29, 2021, 08:00:38 PM

For those still working, I thought I'd share my OMY experience (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/case-studies/near-fire-how-to-plan-taxes-healthcare/msg2922999/#new) in the $2M-$4M club.  Thanks!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: American GenX on October 31, 2021, 02:38:38 PM

I don't think I've posted in this thread before, but I'm in this range as a single older GenXer with no kids in a lower cost of living area - and that's stash only, not counting net worth items like my paid-off home.  So in that sense, I think I'm doing alright and am considering FIREing or going part time (if it's an option) before next summer.

At last calculation, I was around 90X expected FIRE bare bones spending (excluding income taxes), to give me plenty of discretionary $ to spend, but with all my costs going up about 10% over the last year with skyrocketing inflation, it's probably going to be much less than 90X if this keeps up, and that's without even factoring in a likely big drop in stocks at some point.

I might have to OMY again to help compensate for the inflation effect.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on October 31, 2021, 03:07:09 PM

Quote from: American GenX on October 31, 2021, 02:38:38 PM

At last calculation, I was around 90X expected FIRE bare bones spending (excluding income taxes), to give me plenty of discretionary $ to spend, but with all my costs going up about 10% over the last year with skyrocketing inflation, it's probably going to be much less than 90X if this keeps up, and that's without even factoring in a likely big drop in stocks at some point.

I might have to OMY again to help compensate for the inflation effect.

You are joking, right? How bare bones is bare bones?  You could double it and still be at 45x, which is probably perfectly safe.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 31, 2021, 04:40:05 PM

Quote from: lhamo on October 31, 2021, 03:07:09 PM

Quote from: American GenX on October 31, 2021, 02:38:38 PM

At last calculation, I was around 90X expected FIRE bare bones spending (excluding income taxes), to give me plenty of discretionary $ to spend, but with all my costs going up about 10% over the last year with skyrocketing inflation, it's probably going to be much less than 90X if this keeps up, and that's without even factoring in a likely big drop in stocks at some point.

I might have to OMY again to help compensate for the inflation effect.

You are joking, right? How bare bones is bare bones?  You could double it and still be at 45x, which is probably perfectly safe.

Totally agree with @lhamo. If you're at even 45x expenses and not FIRE, why are you hanging out here? Unless you're a SWAMI, something doesn't add up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on October 31, 2021, 04:45:55 PM

Quote from: lhamo on October 31, 2021, 03:07:09 PM

Quote from: American GenX on October 31, 2021, 02:38:38 PM

At last calculation, I was around 90X expected FIRE bare bones spending (excluding income taxes), to give me plenty of discretionary $ to spend, but with all my costs going up about 10% over the last year with skyrocketing inflation, it's probably going to be much less than 90X if this keeps up, and that's without even factoring in a likely big drop in stocks at some point.

I might have to OMY again to help compensate for the inflation effect.

You are joking, right? How bare bones is bare bones?  You could double it and still be at 45x, which is probably perfectly safe.

Yep, 45x is almost twice that of the "4% rule" guideline, which as we all know, has gobs of safety margins in it already.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 31, 2021, 05:52:25 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 31, 2021, 04:45:55 PM

Quote from: lhamo on October 31, 2021, 03:07:09 PM

Quote from: American GenX on October 31, 2021, 02:38:38 PM

At last calculation, I was around 90X expected FIRE bare bones spending (excluding income taxes), to give me plenty of discretionary $ to spend, but with all my costs going up about 10% over the last year with skyrocketing inflation, it's probably going to be much less than 90X if this keeps up, and that's without even factoring in a likely big drop in stocks at some point.

I might have to OMY again to help compensate for the inflation effect.

You are joking, right? How bare bones is bare bones?  You could double it and still be at 45x, which is probably perfectly safe.

Yep, 45x is almost twice that of the "4% rule" guideline, which as we all know, has gobs of safety margins in it already.

So what do you really spend?  Because I’m sure it’s far more than bare bones.  How much is enough?

My bare bones is likely 40k assuming I have to pay for health care.  That is not my planned budget.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 07:53:41 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$*

Good month for crypto's also invested some money to real estate renovation which will show in the assets later after the building is ready and rented.

61 days to fire

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 31, 2021, 08:21:47 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 07:53:41 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$*

Good month for crypto's also invested some money to real estate renovation which will show in the assets later after the building is ready and rented.

61 days to fire

Personally I think your cash allocation is too high and stock is too low.  I have no idea how to evaluate your private equity, if it is functionally equivalent to stock, but you need a good AA and long term plan if you ER.  Close to $3M is great if you're living on less than 100k/yr, otherwise you need to tighten up your plan.  It is very possible that the easy times from 2009 onward will not continue.

I also think that crypto will ultimately be worthless, and this comes from someone that has a small allocation.  Unlike gold, when governments outlaw holding it, bitcoins will have no residual value.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: American GenX on October 31, 2021, 08:58:02 PM

Quote from: lhamo on October 31, 2021, 03:07:09 PM

Quote from: American GenX on October 31, 2021, 02:38:38 PM

At last calculation, I was around 90X expected FIRE bare bones spending (excluding income taxes), to give me plenty of discretionary $ to spend, but with all my costs going up about 10% over the last year with skyrocketing inflation, it's probably going to be much less than 90X if this keeps up, and that's without even factoring in a likely big drop in stocks at some point.

I might have to OMY again to help compensate for the inflation effect.

You are joking, right? How bare bones is bare bones?  You could double it and still be at 45x, which is probably perfectly safe.

Not joking at all.  I'm thinking about and reading up on this stuff quite a bit.  Bare bones just means paying my necessary bills, and I include required long term costs like required home maintenance and auto ownership, just averaging out those costs over the long term.  What bare bones doesn't include is any discretionary spending, such as dining out, entertainment, travel, elective home improvements, and unnecessary purchases.  Also, I'm basing bare bones on early FIRE expenses, and I can definitely see those bare bones expenses increasing faster than inflation as I get older, mostly due to health care costs.  At any rate, I certainly wouldn't want to be limited to a bare bones budget!

Also, as I mentioned in my previous post, that was based on my last calculation of expenses (before the big run up in inflation) and was excluding income taxes, but it was based on my current stash.  So, with updated expenses and taxes included, that figure is probably only 80X for bare bones + taxes combined.

Then I'll add that I expect to have very significant discretionary spending when I FIRE, probably a 15% increase in bare bones expenses due to an increase in estimated health care spending in a decade (on top of inflation), the wild card possibility of relocation (that could be >$100K + higher ongoing costs), and $50,000 in planned home maintenance/improvement during early FIRE, and I expect true inflationary costs to increase from year to year higher than the CPI figures.  And if high inflation continues at least another couple years as expected along with a big drop in stocks, which is certain to happen at some point, which can take many years to recover based on historical records, things will get a lot tighter, and I'll have to cut way back on discretionary spending.  So, this is why I consider OMY again.

Why am I still here?  In the past 2 1/2 years, it was more about delaying FIRE because of the uncertainties with the health care law, and my stash was considerably lower back then.  Now it's more of a concern of expenses rising increasingly faster.  As one example, my living costs over the last year are roughly 10% higher, but my stable value fund through work dropped earlier this year from earning 3% to 1.36%.  So, it been 3% or higher going back 20 years, meaning it went from keeping ahead of inflation to becoming a big loser to inflation in a flash.  This sudden change after 20 years was completely unexpected.

In some ways, I'm happier than ever with my job - I have my own private office, the work day goes quickly, the work is fairly interesting and sometimes challenging, benefits are still fairly good (although there have been some steps back of late), dept. meetings are done by video conference, no expectation of extra work hours, and I feel I have plenty of down time at work most days.  But the benefits aren't as good as they had been, and there are times that I feel stressed out, usually by co-workers, and I think it would be great to get away and not have to deal with it anymore or at least work part time.  Of course, the additional free time would be a big plus regardless.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: American GenX on October 31, 2021, 09:10:10 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on October 31, 2021, 05:52:25 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 31, 2021, 04:45:55 PM

Quote from: lhamo on October 31, 2021, 03:07:09 PM

Quote from: American GenX on October 31, 2021, 02:38:38 PM

At last calculation, I was around 90X expected FIRE bare bones spending (excluding income taxes), to give me plenty of discretionary $ to spend, but with all my costs going up about 10% over the last year with skyrocketing inflation, it's probably going to be much less than 90X if this keeps up, and that's without even factoring in a likely big drop in stocks at some point.

I might have to OMY again to help compensate for the inflation effect.

You are joking, right? How bare bones is bare bones?  You could double it and still be at 45x, which is probably perfectly safe.

Yep, 45x is almost twice that of the "4% rule" guideline, which as we all know, has gobs of safety margins in it already.

So what do you really spend?  Because I’m sure it’s far more than bare bones.  How much is enough?

My bare bones is likely 40k assuming I have to pay for health care.  That is not my planned budget.

If I went by my actual spending in the last year (not yet FIREd), including discretionary, my stash is probably 105X.  But for my bare bones in FIRE, I'm adding in estimated higher health care costs plus averaging out long term home & automotive costs, that I didn't actually spend on in the last year, but I think these costs should be accounted for over the long term, so I consider them required spending and part of my bare bones, like a sinking fund.

Discretionary spending isn't in my planned budget - it's just whatever is leftover after bare bones that I can optionally spend.  I suspect it will vary considerably in different years and will by itself be more than all of my bare bones expenses combined.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 09:51:39 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 31, 2021, 08:21:47 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 07:53:41 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$*

Good month for crypto's also invested some money to real estate renovation which will show in the assets later after the building is ready and rented.

61 days to fire

Personally I think your cash allocation is too high and stock is too low.  I have no idea how to evaluate your private equity, if it is functionally equivalent to stock, but you need a good AA and long term plan if you ER.  Close to $3M is great if you're living on less than 100k/yr, otherwise you need to tighten up your plan.  It is very possible that the easy times from 2009 onward will not continue.

I also think that crypto will ultimately be worthless, and this comes from someone that has a small allocation.  Unlike gold, when governments outlaw holding it, bitcoins will have no residual value.

I agree with the cash balance as well as the stock, but there's reason for it. I'm currently renovating one big house and that is eating a lot of cash. That project should be finished by the end of the year and then it will be rented out (and I will add that as real estate asset to my allocation). We are also moving from Thailand to Finland in February next year and we are going to need some cash for the move and purchasing things like car in our new home country. Also when moving to Finland we will most likely open private banking account were the minimum investment is 500k EUR so that would then increase the stock allocation.

Regarding crypto and gold, here's were I have a bit different view. I have bought both for the same reason and that is the possible crash of FIAT currencies or the future CBDC and regulations and limits coming with it. Now I'm actually more scared about government confiscating/banning gold and as it's currently stored in the bank tresor here in Thailand I could see a day when it's either gone or I will not be allowed/able to access it. Where as with crypto's if banned I could still access them and spend among those who still accepts them. It might be that I would have to spend them in El Salvador or Panama, but I can't see situation where nobody would accept crypto's anymore, value is a different thing..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 01, 2021, 10:05:39 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 09:51:39 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 31, 2021, 08:21:47 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 07:53:41 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$*

Good month for crypto's also invested some money to real estate renovation which will show in the assets later after the building is ready and rented.

61 days to fire

Personally I think your cash allocation is too high and stock is too low.  I have no idea how to evaluate your private equity, if it is functionally equivalent to stock, but you need a good AA and long term plan if you ER.  Close to $3M is great if you're living on less than 100k/yr, otherwise you need to tighten up your plan.  It is very possible that the easy times from 2009 onward will not continue.

I also think that crypto will ultimately be worthless, and this comes from someone that has a small allocation.  Unlike gold, when governments outlaw holding it, bitcoins will have no residual value.

I agree with the cash balance as well as the stock, but there's reason for it. I'm currently renovating one big house and that is eating a lot of cash. That project should be finished by the end of the year and then it will be rented out (and I will add that as real estate asset to my allocation). We are also moving from Thailand to Finland in February next year and we are going to need some cash for the move and purchasing things like car in our new home country. Also when moving to Finland we will most likely open private banking account were the minimum investment is 500k EUR so that would then increase the stock allocation.

Regarding crypto and gold, here's were I have a bit different view. I have bought both for the same reason and that is the possible crash of FIAT currencies or the future CBDC and regulations and limits coming with it. Now I'm actually more scared about government confiscating/banning gold and as it's currently stored in the bank tresor here in Thailand I could see a day when it's either gone or I will not be allowed/able to access it. Where as with crypto's if banned I could still access them and spend among those who still accepts them. It might be that I would have to spend them in El Salvador or Panama, but I can't see situation where nobody would accept crypto's anymore, value is a different thing..

Thanks for the reply, it's always fun to understand why folks have their AA a certain way, and I'm always interested in what folks who hold crypto think about the long term. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on November 01, 2021, 10:31:53 AM

Quote from: American GenX on October 31, 2021, 08:58:02 PM

Not joking at all.  I'm thinking about and reading up on this stuff quite a bit.  Bare bones just means paying my necessary bills, and I include required long term costs like required home maintenance and auto ownership, just averaging out those costs over the long term.  What bare bones doesn't include is any discretionary spending, such as dining out, entertainment, travel, elective home improvements, and unnecessary purchases.  Also, I'm basing bare bones on early FIRE expenses, and I can definitely see those bare bones expenses increasing faster than inflation as I get older, mostly due to health care costs.  At any rate, I certainly wouldn't want to be limited to a bare bones budget!

So why base your decision/discussion of your plans on the bare bones number if that is not the one you will really use?  I can understand having that as an initial target when you are starting out, because getting to a more robust real FIRE number is much further away.  But once you are as far along in the journey as you are the bare bones number becomes a milepost you can wave to in your rear view mirror.

I mean, you do you -- if you want to keep working keep working.  If you want to spend more spend more.  But it seems a bit disingenuous to me to boast about a 90x spending stash when your real life spending is pretty much NEVER going to be x. 

Also, relative size of the stash matters a lot.  Speaking from experience, it has been no big deal for us to absorb 10-20k/year in unplanned expenses post FIRE for things like sewer and water main replacement and car purchase after original vehicle was totaled.  Even with those things our spending has been roughly 50-60k/year for a family of four since 2015.  There simply is not that much more we want to be spending on. YMMV.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on November 01, 2021, 03:09:17 PM

It doesn’t affect my financial planning, and I make no buy or sell decisions based on what I see, but most days I’ll take a gander at the Yahoo portfolio I’ve set up that more or less matches the equity portion of my portfolio.

Like most of you, I see variations that can be huge - for example, from early Wednesday to the close, the portfolio dropped about $21,000…the next day it was up about 2/3 of that.

When I looked at it at one point this afternoon, it was up exactly $12.00… precisely the cost of the sandwich I had just finished.  It was it its own way an even more enjoyable data-check than seeing it jump by thousands - it meant that I had gotten a free lunch!

That may become my favorite measure of gains and losses.  By the close, my funds had risen by about 330 sandwiches for the day.  I’m currently forecasting my equities to rise about another 6,000 sandwiches by the end of the year… just a hunch, really, and only time will tell.

——————————————————-

On a completely unrelated note, when setting up access to my gf’s new corporate pension information website this weekend, we saw that we had completely forgotten about a cash value pension account worth around $300k - recently, we had been more focused on her soon-to-be-even-more-valuable supplemental pension that vests next year, along with all our other wads of cash, equities, bonds, home equity, etc. 

So how will that change our financial planning and/or spending? Not a whit.  Like everyone else who’s qualified for this thread, we already have way more than we need and, like many others here, are already spending way more than we can really justify.  Milestones are largely irrelevant at this point - adding it in takes us from “…and Beyond!” to “…and Beyonder!”

Its greatest real value would be if i can somehow eventually use its existence, in combination with all the other sums, to convince my “I NEED $xxx million to retire” gf that she has ‘enough’ to quit; if not now, then perhaps sometime this decade.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on November 01, 2021, 07:33:15 PM

It seems that I'm up 6024 sandwiches today.   Shoot!  I forgot to use my coupon...


 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 02, 2021, 06:22:45 AM

I guess the 'sandwich calculation' is how the UN figures Elon Musk could solve world hunger with a mere 2% of his net worth ($6B of his $311B 'stache)...  Maybe the UN should have been more specific that it would solve world hunger, but only for a week...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: alienbogey on November 02, 2021, 09:42:45 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 26, 2021, 03:37:28 PM

We'll buy a new car in the next 18 months....It needs to haul 4 bicycles on a hitch, tow 3500 pounds, be long enough for seat down sleeping inside and carry 6 passengers when needed.  I'd love an EV but don't think we'll see that in 18 months.

That sounds to me exactly like a Tesla Model Y. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 02, 2021, 10:35:22 AM

Quote from: alienbogey on November 02, 2021, 09:42:45 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 26, 2021, 03:37:28 PM

We'll buy a new car in the next 18 months....It needs to haul 4 bicycles on a hitch, tow 3500 pounds, be long enough for seat down sleeping inside and carry 6 passengers when needed.  I'd love an EV but don't think we'll see that in 18 months.

That sounds to me exactly like a Tesla Model Y.

Cyber Truck SUV model maybe.  I'd always planned on the next vehicle purchased be an EV. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on November 02, 2021, 02:07:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 26, 2021, 03:37:28 PM

We'll buy a new car in the next 18 months.  It's probably the Acura MDX, Lexus 350 or Honda Pilot.  I want a real transmission and non turbo V-6.  It needs to haul 4 bicycles on a hitch, tow 3500 pounds, be long enough for seat down sleeping inside and carry 6 passengers when needed.  I'd love an EV but don't think we'll see that in 18 months.

I'm a huge Toyota fan -- why not consider the 4Runner?  I've owned one for 11 years and still feel like its one of the most reliable vehicles on the road.  Granted, I'm not driving much these days -- but when I do, I always feel confidence that it could last another 6-10 years.  The downside is gas mileage on it for sure.  Since I don't drive much anymore, I don't feel that pain (financially and mentally) of burning through gas. 

In any event, since Lexus is a Toyota product, they get my vote from your list.   Not that you asked and not that my opinion matters in the end  :-).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on November 02, 2021, 02:11:25 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 09:51:39 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 31, 2021, 08:21:47 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 07:53:41 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$*

Good month for crypto's also invested some money to real estate renovation which will show in the assets later after the building is ready and rented.

61 days to fire

Personally I think your cash allocation is too high and stock is too low.  I have no idea how to evaluate your private equity, if it is functionally equivalent to stock, but you need a good AA and long term plan if you ER.  Close to $3M is great if you're living on less than 100k/yr, otherwise you need to tighten up your plan.  It is very possible that the easy times from 2009 onward will not continue.

I also think that crypto will ultimately be worthless, and this comes from someone that has a small allocation.  Unlike gold, when governments outlaw holding it, bitcoins will have no residual value.

I agree with the cash balance as well as the stock, but there's reason for it. I'm currently renovating one big house and that is eating a lot of cash. That project should be finished by the end of the year and then it will be rented out (and I will add that as real estate asset to my allocation). We are also moving from Thailand to Finland in February next year and we are going to need some cash for the move and purchasing things like car in our new home country. Also when moving to Finland we will most likely open private banking account were the minimum investment is 500k EUR so that would then increase the stock allocation.

Regarding crypto and gold, here's were I have a bit different view. I have bought both for the same reason and that is the possible crash of FIAT currencies or the future CBDC and regulations and limits coming with it. Now I'm actually more scared about government confiscating/banning gold and as it's currently stored in the bank tresor here in Thailand I could see a day when it's either gone or I will not be allowed/able to access it. Where as with crypto's if banned I could still access them and spend among those who still accepts them. It might be that I would have to spend them in El Salvador or Panama, but I can't see situation where nobody would accept crypto's anymore, value is a different thing..

I would love to get a lesson on Crypto because I have never been able to figure it out and I've been doing battle with FOMO over the past year or so when I hear about others investing and using it.  I just have been unable to pull the trigger on anything related to it, including the new crypto ETFs.   

But your cash position certainly served you well in September @Finntastic !   I took it on the chin in September, off to a better start in 4Q, but I'm sticking to my new rule of tracking quarterly, although I freely admit I still check much more frequently than that!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on November 02, 2021, 02:48:37 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 24, 2021, 11:06:35 AM

I logged into my 401k today to download a statement. Its retirement calculator says I’m at 107% of needed funds for my planned fat FIRE. I had plugged 50 into the calculator, and I don’t think it would accept anything younger. It seems like we just hit $1M NW, and now we just passed $3M. While I know I could FIRE or downshift at any time, there are things I still want to accomplish.  And seeing mid 6-figures roll in each year to add to the stash is reassuring. So we’re carrying on… for now.

Congrats @Taran Wanderer !  Way to go!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: American GenX on November 02, 2021, 07:19:44 PM

Quote from: lhamo on November 01, 2021, 10:31:53 AM

Quote from: American GenX on October 31, 2021, 08:58:02 PM

Not joking at all.  I'm thinking about and reading up on this stuff quite a bit.  Bare bones just means paying my necessary bills, and I include required long term costs like required home maintenance and auto ownership, just averaging out those costs over the long term.  What bare bones doesn't include is any discretionary spending, such as dining out, entertainment, travel, elective home improvements, and unnecessary purchases.  Also, I'm basing bare bones on early FIRE expenses, and I can definitely see those bare bones expenses increasing faster than inflation as I get older, mostly due to health care costs.  At any rate, I certainly wouldn't want to be limited to a bare bones budget!

So why base your decision/discussion of your plans on the bare bones number if that is not the one you will really use?
I can understand having that as an initial target when you are starting out, because getting to a more robust real FIRE number is much further away.  But once you are as far along in the journey as you are the bare bones number becomes a milepost you can wave to in your rear view mirror.

My budget only includes required expenses, not discretionary spending, so that's the only number I have.  Discretionary spending will be all over the place.  And my existing budget is even lower than my expected FIRE bare bones.  And BB spending it's NOT a target - I'm already past what I should need for that, but there are a variety of factors in the mix for when I FIRE.

Quote

I mean, you do you -- if you want to keep working keep working.  If you want to spend more spend more.  But it seems a bit disingenuous to me to boast about a 90x spending stash when your real life spending is pretty much NEVER going to be x. 

I have mixed feelings about continuing to work, as mentioned in a previous post.  The quick statistic I gave was just to put my stash in perspective against my base expenses, and I was very clear in that post that it was a multiple of bare bones, wasn't accounting for the high inflation I've experienced, and didn't include taxes.

Quote

Also, relative size of the stash matters a lot.  Speaking from experience, it has been no big deal for us to absorb 10-20k/year in unplanned expenses post FIRE for things like sewer and water main replacement and car purchase after original vehicle was totaled.  Even with those things our spending has been roughly 50-60k/year for a family of four since 2015.  There simply is not that much more we want to be spending on. YMMV.

I always add up all of the various long term expenses like car replacements, home repairs (like new HVAC, roof), etc. and average out over many years to include in my bare bones because those are required expenses at some point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on November 03, 2021, 12:40:24 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 01, 2021, 10:05:39 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 09:51:39 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 31, 2021, 08:21:47 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 07:53:41 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$*

Good month for crypto's also invested some money to real estate renovation which will show in the assets later after the building is ready and rented.

61 days to fire

Personally I think your cash allocation is too high and stock is too low.  I have no idea how to evaluate your private equity, if it is functionally equivalent to stock, but you need a good AA and long term plan if you ER.  Close to $3M is great if you're living on less than 100k/yr, otherwise you need to tighten up your plan.  It is very possible that the easy times from 2009 onward will not continue.

I also think that crypto will ultimately be worthless, and this comes from someone that has a small allocation.  Unlike gold, when governments outlaw holding it, bitcoins will have no residual value.

I agree with the cash balance as well as the stock, but there's reason for it. I'm currently renovating one big house and that is eating a lot of cash. That project should be finished by the end of the year and then it will be rented out (and I will add that as real estate asset to my allocation). We are also moving from Thailand to Finland in February next year and we are going to need some cash for the move and purchasing things like car in our new home country. Also when moving to Finland we will most likely open private banking account were the minimum investment is 500k EUR so that would then increase the stock allocation.

Regarding crypto and gold, here's were I have a bit different view. I have bought both for the same reason and that is the possible crash of FIAT currencies or the future CBDC and regulations and limits coming with it. Now I'm actually more scared about government confiscating/banning gold and as it's currently stored in the bank tresor here in Thailand I could see a day when it's either gone or I will not be allowed/able to access it. Where as with crypto's if banned I could still access them and spend among those who still accepts them. It might be that I would have to spend them in El Salvador or Panama, but I can't see situation where nobody would accept crypto's anymore, value is a different thing..

Thanks for the reply, it's always fun to understand why folks have their AA a certain way, and I'm always interested in what folks who hold crypto think about the long term.

oh and the private equity evaluation is based on latest share purchases in the two companies in question which have both happened this year so it's a pretty recent valuation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on November 03, 2021, 12:55:30 AM

Quote from: arcturus on November 02, 2021, 02:11:25 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 09:51:39 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 31, 2021, 08:21:47 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 07:53:41 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$*

Good month for crypto's also invested some money to real estate renovation which will show in the assets later after the building is ready and rented.

61 days to fire

Personally I think your cash allocation is too high and stock is too low.  I have no idea how to evaluate your private equity, if it is functionally equivalent to stock, but you need a good AA and long term plan if you ER.  Close to $3M is great if you're living on less than 100k/yr, otherwise you need to tighten up your plan.  It is very possible that the easy times from 2009 onward will not continue.

I also think that crypto will ultimately be worthless, and this comes from someone that has a small allocation.  Unlike gold, when governments outlaw holding it, bitcoins will have no residual value.

I agree with the cash balance as well as the stock, but there's reason for it. I'm currently renovating one big house and that is eating a lot of cash. That project should be finished by the end of the year and then it will be rented out (and I will add that as real estate asset to my allocation). We are also moving from Thailand to Finland in February next year and we are going to need some cash for the move and purchasing things like car in our new home country. Also when moving to Finland we will most likely open private banking account were the minimum investment is 500k EUR so that would then increase the stock allocation.

Regarding crypto and gold, here's were I have a bit different view. I have bought both for the same reason and that is the possible crash of FIAT currencies or the future CBDC and regulations and limits coming with it. Now I'm actually more scared about government confiscating/banning gold and as it's currently stored in the bank tresor here in Thailand I could see a day when it's either gone or I will not be allowed/able to access it. Where as with crypto's if banned I could still access them and spend among those who still accepts them. It might be that I would have to spend them in El Salvador or Panama, but I can't see situation where nobody would accept crypto's anymore, value is a different thing..

I would love to get a lesson on Crypto because I have never been able to figure it out and I've been doing battle with FOMO over the past year or so when I hear about others investing and using it.  I just have been unable to pull the trigger on anything related to it, including the new crypto ETFs.   

But your cash position certainly served you well in September @Finntastic !   I took it on the chin in September, off to a better start in 4Q, but I'm sticking to my new rule of tracking quarterly, although I freely admit I still check much more frequently than that!

Regarding crypto's I'm not an expert but one of my companies has been dealing with crypto's and blockchain's for about 8-9 years now.

I give you example of why I like Bitcoin as much as I do. FIAT kind of works as long as you have bank account in the same country where you've born or hold passport, live and work. When it comes to international transactions specially SWIFT things get broken. I hold passport from Finland, live in Thailand and had bank account in Hong Kong. When I tried to transfer money from HK to Vietnam to pay for my apartment there it took total of four weeks and then the money bounced back (- massive fees). When we tried to send money from Thailand to Finland, we did 6 visits to bank, total of 100+ documents and 10+ hrs in the end we got money transferred and paid about 3,000 USD in fees (note we had EUR account so there was no currency conversion involved) and finally thanks to EU money laundry laws and my current residency being Thailand about half of my transfer in europe get blocked by the banks. Bank's can decide if I'm allowed to transfer money to my brother for examle or how much. So when it comes to FIAT and banks, I don't really have control over my money, banks and governments can decide who I can send money to or who I can receive money from. With Bitcoin there is none of that + the transfers are pretty much instant so I can pay to anyone on the planet almost instantly without needing any permission from anyone.

When it comes to blockchain there isn't a short answer, however I do want to say this. If I would to be starting company now, I would fully run it with blockchain. Tokens would replace shares, salaries would be paid in tokens and clients would pay in cryptos. Smart contracts would allow payment automation, when certain work is done and enough of token holders will verify it payment will be automatically sent out, also any disputes could be handled with tokens, where random token holders would be called as a "jury" to decide a disputes. A very good example of a platform that would allow to do this kind of stuff is this one: https://aragon.org/ I did recently wrote my master thesis about it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 03, 2021, 09:56:26 AM

Quote from: arcturus on November 02, 2021, 02:07:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 26, 2021, 03:37:28 PM

We'll buy a new car in the next 18 months.  It's probably the Acura MDX, Lexus 350 or Honda Pilot.  I want a real transmission and non turbo V-6.  It needs to haul 4 bicycles on a hitch, tow 3500 pounds, be long enough for seat down sleeping inside and carry 6 passengers when needed.  I'd love an EV but don't think we'll see that in 18 months.

I'm a huge Toyota fan -- why not consider the 4Runner?  I've owned one for 11 years and still feel like its one of the most reliable vehicles on the road.  Granted, I'm not driving much these days -- but when I do, I always feel confidence that it could last another 6-10 years.  The downside is gas mileage on it for sure.  Since I don't drive much anymore, I don't feel that pain (financially and mentally) of burning through gas. 

In any event, since Lexus is a Toyota product, they get my vote from your list.   Not that you asked and not that my opinion matters in the end  :-).

I'll beg for a 4-Runner when the time comes.  She wants something softer.  The 4-Runner is about as good a vehicle as can be possibly purchased.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ca-rn on November 03, 2021, 02:35:46 PM

Officially crossed over to the $2M mark!   And of course, can't share this with anyone IRL :)
 
Shocked since I never imagined I'd ever even have $1M in my life!  All thanks to LBYM, 20 years of 401K investing, 10 years of taxable and the huge run up for a long while. 

My mind doesn't see the money there (401K/taxable) as the same money that's in my checking and saving accounts.... But to celebrate, I recently upgraded some small kitchen appliances ($200-300 each) and they weren't even on sale (!) (by habit, I did look for coupon codes- none to be found) and still hit-BUY.

Otherwise, feeling about the same, working my PT job, cooking/packing healthy meals and diy'ing when I can.   

Growing up poor, I still have lingering money anxiety but now more than ever, I know I am financially secure and feel SECURE. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 03, 2021, 02:58:18 PM

Quote from: ca-rn on November 03, 2021, 02:35:46 PM

Officially crossed over to the $2M mark!   And of course, can't share this with anyone IRL :)
 
Shocked since I never imagined I'd ever even have $1M in my life!  All thanks to LBYM, 20 years of 401K investing, 10 years of taxable and the huge run up for a long while. 

My mind doesn't see the money there (401K/taxable) as the same money that's in my checking and saving accounts.... But to celebrate, I recently upgraded some small kitchen appliances ($200-300 each) and they weren't even on sale (!) (by habit, I did look for coupon codes- none to be found) and still hit-BUY.

Otherwise, feeling about the same, working my PT job, cooking/packing healthy meals and diy'ing when I can.   

Growing up poor, I still have lingering money anxiety but now more than ever, I know I am financially secure and feel SECURE.

Congrats.. Not sure if my money anxiety will ever go away. We crossed $3M invested 2 weeks ago.. I still seem to worry the same as I always have..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on November 03, 2021, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 03, 2021, 02:58:18 PM

Quote from: ca-rn on November 03, 2021, 02:35:46 PM

Officially crossed over to the $2M mark!   And of course, can't share this with anyone IRL :)
 
Shocked since I never imagined I'd ever even have $1M in my life!  All thanks to LBYM, 20 years of 401K investing, 10 years of taxable and the huge run up for a long while. 

My mind doesn't see the money there (401K/taxable) as the same money that's in my checking and saving accounts.... But to celebrate, I recently upgraded some small kitchen appliances ($200-300 each) and they weren't even on sale (!) (by habit, I did look for coupon codes- none to be found) and still hit-BUY.

Otherwise, feeling about the same, working my PT job, cooking/packing healthy meals and diy'ing when I can.   

Growing up poor, I still have lingering money anxiety but now more than ever, I know I am financially secure and feel SECURE.

Congrats.. Not sure if my money anxiety will ever go away. We crossed $3M invested 2 weeks ago.. I still seem to worry the same as I always have..:)

I had about $1MM when I retired, and crossed over $2MM this year, 6 years later.  Crazy.  I am trying to figure out if somehow inflation will somehow kill my stash, or if that’s just paranoia. I don’t worry day-to-day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 03, 2021, 05:16:33 PM

Quote from: G-dog on November 03, 2021, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 03, 2021, 02:58:18 PM

Quote from: ca-rn on November 03, 2021, 02:35:46 PM

Officially crossed over to the $2M mark!   And of course, can't share this with anyone IRL :)
 
Shocked since I never imagined I'd ever even have $1M in my life!  All thanks to LBYM, 20 years of 401K investing, 10 years of taxable and the huge run up for a long while. 

My mind doesn't see the money there (401K/taxable) as the same money that's in my checking and saving accounts.... But to celebrate, I recently upgraded some small kitchen appliances ($200-300 each) and they weren't even on sale (!) (by habit, I did look for coupon codes- none to be found) and still hit-BUY.

Otherwise, feeling about the same, working my PT job, cooking/packing healthy meals and diy'ing when I can.   

Growing up poor, I still have lingering money anxiety but now more than ever, I know I am financially secure and feel SECURE.

Congrats.. Not sure if my money anxiety will ever go away. We crossed $3M invested 2 weeks ago.. I still seem to worry the same as I always have..:)

I had about $1MM when I retired, and crossed over $2MM this year, 6 years later.  Crazy.  I am trying to figure out if somehow inflation will somehow kill my stash, or if that’s just paranoia. I don’t worry day-to-day.

I've had this odd idea that maybe, just maybe we won't have bad inflation.  You get inflation if costs go up, for example, to a manufacturer then the price of the manufactured product goes up.  This can occur if the cost of materials, labor or energy go up.  To a lesser extent increases in taxes may have that affect.  People have told me that a bigger effect is that businesses want to "make up" for the losses they've had during the pandemic so they will raise prices.

Now here's the odd idea.  There may be a lot of stuff which they can't jump the prices much.  Why is that?

Because lots of people have no money.  If they raise prices, people won't pay the higher prices because they have no money.

Look at the average per capita income in 2019 and 2021.

This article says the average income in 2021 is  $51,480.

The same article says that the average yearly income in 2019 was $65,836.

https://policyadvice.net/insurance/insights/average-american-income/ (https://policyadvice.net/insurance/insights/average-american-income/)

I'm just thinking it can't get too bad.  There's a lot of people up to their ears in debt.  There are pockets of prosperity, but there seem to be a lot of pockets of non prosperity, sometimes really bad non prosperity. 

I'm just thinking that the market cannot bear large inflation and will limit it.

Of course there are material and labor shortages which may cause demand for some things to outstrip supply, but this is spotty and I think most stuff people need is still available.

As usual whenever I write something semi-dumb herein, I give the disclaimer that you folks have a far better understanding of this material than I ever will.  If it's really dumb, you are all polite and just ignore it,........Thanks.  If not I usually get some smart responses setting me straight.

Stocks had a record today maybe I can ignore inflation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on November 03, 2021, 05:49:59 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on November 03, 2021, 12:55:30 AM

Quote from: arcturus on November 02, 2021, 02:11:25 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 09:51:39 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 31, 2021, 08:21:47 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on October 31, 2021, 07:53:41 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$*

Good month for crypto's also invested some money to real estate renovation which will show in the assets later after the building is ready and rented.

61 days to fire

Personally I think your cash allocation is too high and stock is too low.  I have no idea how to evaluate your private equity, if it is functionally equivalent to stock, but you need a good AA and long term plan if you ER.  Close to $3M is great if you're living on less than 100k/yr, otherwise you need to tighten up your plan.  It is very possible that the easy times from 2009 onward will not continue.

I also think that crypto will ultimately be worthless, and this comes from someone that has a small allocation.  Unlike gold, when governments outlaw holding it, bitcoins will have no residual value.

I agree with the cash balance as well as the stock, but there's reason for it. I'm currently renovating one big house and that is eating a lot of cash. That project should be finished by the end of the year and then it will be rented out (and I will add that as real estate asset to my allocation). We are also moving from Thailand to Finland in February next year and we are going to need some cash for the move and purchasing things like car in our new home country. Also when moving to Finland we will most likely open private banking account were the minimum investment is 500k EUR so that would then increase the stock allocation.

Regarding crypto and gold, here's were I have a bit different view. I have bought both for the same reason and that is the possible crash of FIAT currencies or the future CBDC and regulations and limits coming with it. Now I'm actually more scared about government confiscating/banning gold and as it's currently stored in the bank tresor here in Thailand I could see a day when it's either gone or I will not be allowed/able to access it. Where as with crypto's if banned I could still access them and spend among those who still accepts them. It might be that I would have to spend them in El Salvador or Panama, but I can't see situation where nobody would accept crypto's anymore, value is a different thing..

I would love to get a lesson on Crypto because I have never been able to figure it out and I've been doing battle with FOMO over the past year or so when I hear about others investing and using it.  I just have been unable to pull the trigger on anything related to it, including the new crypto ETFs.   

But your cash position certainly served you well in September @Finntastic !   I took it on the chin in September, off to a better start in 4Q, but I'm sticking to my new rule of tracking quarterly, although I freely admit I still check much more frequently than that!

Regarding crypto's I'm not an expert but one of my companies has been dealing with crypto's and blockchain's for about 8-9 years now.

I give you example of why I like Bitcoin as much as I do. FIAT kind of works as long as you have bank account in the same country where you've born or hold passport, live and work. When it comes to international transactions specially SWIFT things get broken. I hold passport from Finland, live in Thailand and had bank account in Hong Kong. When I tried to transfer money from HK to Vietnam to pay for my apartment there it took total of four weeks and then the money bounced back (- massive fees). When we tried to send money from Thailand to Finland, we did 6 visits to bank, total of 100+ documents and 10+ hrs in the end we got money transferred and paid about 3,000 USD in fees (note we had EUR account so there was no currency conversion involved) and finally thanks to EU money laundry laws and my current residency being Thailand about half of my transfer in europe get blocked by the banks. Bank's can decide if I'm allowed to transfer money to my brother for examle or how much. So when it comes to FIAT and banks, I don't really have control over my money, banks and governments can decide who I can send money to or who I can receive money from. With Bitcoin there is none of that + the transfers are pretty much instant so I can pay to anyone on the planet almost instantly without needing any permission from anyone.

When it comes to blockchain there isn't a short answer, however I do want to say this. If I would to be starting company now, I would fully run it with blockchain. Tokens would replace shares, salaries would be paid in tokens and clients would pay in cryptos. Smart contracts would allow payment automation, when certain work is done and enough of token holders will verify it payment will be automatically sent out, also any disputes could be handled with tokens, where random token holders would be called as a "jury" to decide a disputes. A very good example of a platform that would allow to do this kind of stuff is this one: https://aragon.org/ I did recently wrote my master thesis about it.

Thanks @Finntastic .  That aspect of it makes total sense to me -- the bank limitations (hours, dollar amounts, forms, etc) and fees do seem quite arbitrary.  And if I had to live through your experiences, I would be anti-bank for sure.  What baffles me is how you assess whether a bitcoin is worth $62,969 or $85,000 or $5.  And then if one gets too expensive, why don't I just create another one.....questions abound for me.   I've determined to spend a couple evenings watching a crypto documentary -- so, rather than drag all on this forum through my education, maybe I'll just try to learn a bit through that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ca-rn on November 03, 2021, 06:01:28 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 03, 2021, 02:58:18 PM

Quote from: ca-rn on November 03, 2021, 02:35:46 PM

Officially crossed over to the $2M mark!   And of course, can't share this with anyone IRL :)
 
Shocked since I never imagined I'd ever even have $1M in my life!  All thanks to LBYM, 20 years of 401K investing, 10 years of taxable and the huge run up for a long while. 

My mind doesn't see the money there (401K/taxable) as the same money that's in my checking and saving accounts.... But to celebrate, I recently upgraded some small kitchen appliances ($200-300 each) and they weren't even on sale (!) (by habit, I did look for coupon codes- none to be found) and still hit-BUY.

Otherwise, feeling about the same, working my PT job, cooking/packing healthy meals and diy'ing when I can.   

Growing up poor, I still have lingering money anxiety but now more than ever, I know I am financially secure and feel SECURE.

Congrats.. Not sure if my money anxiety will ever go away. We crossed $3M invested 2 weeks ago.. I still seem to worry the same as I always have..:)

Congrats to you too! 

Yes, the anxiety still lingers for me too but I can take a step back more now, be kind and also laugh at myself when I catch myself sweatin' about spending a few bucks on something that is perfectly within my budget... and I gently remind myself "I can afford it" "You can buy it, its OK"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 03, 2021, 09:16:20 PM

Quote from: ca-rn on November 03, 2021, 06:01:28 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 03, 2021, 02:58:18 PM

Quote from: ca-rn on November 03, 2021, 02:35:46 PM

Officially crossed over to the $2M mark!   And of course, can't share this with anyone IRL :)
 
Shocked since I never imagined I'd ever even have $1M in my life!  All thanks to LBYM, 20 years of 401K investing, 10 years of taxable and the huge run up for a long while. 

My mind doesn't see the money there (401K/taxable) as the same money that's in my checking and saving accounts.... But to celebrate, I recently upgraded some small kitchen appliances ($200-300 each) and they weren't even on sale (!) (by habit, I did look for coupon codes- none to be found) and still hit-BUY.

Otherwise, feeling about the same, working my PT job, cooking/packing healthy meals and diy'ing when I can.   

Growing up poor, I still have lingering money anxiety but now more than ever, I know I am financially secure and feel SECURE.

Congrats.. Not sure if my money anxiety will ever go away. We crossed $3M invested 2 weeks ago.. I still seem to worry the same as I always have..:)

Congrats to you too! 

Yes, the anxiety still lingers for me too but I can take a step back more now, be kind and also laugh at myself when I catch myself sweatin' about spending a few bucks on something that is perfectly within my budget... and I gently remind myself "I can afford it" "You can buy it, its OK"

Oh yeah, I was trying to break my retirement plan today.  With a 40% pension, it’s even more of an I can spend what and still it shows 90% success rate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on November 04, 2021, 07:33:05 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on November 03, 2021, 12:55:30 AM

Regarding crypto's I'm not an expert but one of my companies has been dealing with crypto's and blockchain's for about 8-9 years now.

I give you example of why I like Bitcoin as much as I do. FIAT kind of works as long as you have bank account in the same country where you've born or hold passport, live and work. When it comes to international transactions specially SWIFT things get broken. I hold passport from Finland, live in Thailand and had bank account in Hong Kong. When I tried to transfer money from HK to Vietnam to pay for my apartment there it took total of four weeks and then the money bounced back (- massive fees). When we tried to send money from Thailand to Finland, we did 6 visits to bank, total of 100+ documents and 10+ hrs in the end we got money transferred and paid about 3,000 USD in fees (note we had EUR account so there was no currency conversion involved) and finally thanks to EU money laundry laws and my current residency being Thailand about half of my transfer in europe get blocked by the banks. Bank's can decide if I'm allowed to transfer money to my brother for examle or how much. So when it comes to FIAT and banks, I don't really have control over my money, banks and governments can decide who I can send money to or who I can receive money from. With Bitcoin there is none of that + the transfers are pretty much instant so I can pay to anyone on the planet almost instantly without needing any permission from anyone.

When it comes to blockchain there isn't a short answer, however I do want to say this. If I would to be starting company now, I would fully run it with blockchain. Tokens would replace shares, salaries would be paid in tokens and clients would pay in cryptos. Smart contracts would allow payment automation, when certain work is done and enough of token holders will verify it payment will be automatically sent out, also any disputes could be handled with tokens, where random token holders would be called as a "jury" to decide a disputes. A very good example of a platform that would allow to do this kind of stuff is this one: https://aragon.org/ I did recently wrote my master thesis about it.

While I have never lived abroad for an extended period of time, I had investigated the possibility at various points in my life…and never have I heard about protracted difficulties in transferring funds that can only be surmounted using cryptocurrency.

There are other mechanisms for moving money that bypass traditional banking such as Western Union and Xoom.  They work quickly (e.g., when I lost my debit card in Argentina, my gf was able to Xoom me $500 worth of pesos that were available in about three hours (or perhaps a lot less…it was seven years ago).  Low transaction fee, maybe 1%, and their exchange rate was about 50% better than the ‘official’ rate.

This really feels like yet another concocted reason to justify crypto’s existence.  The only real use IMNSHO is for money laundering.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on November 06, 2021, 02:23:11 AM

Quote from: jeroly on November 04, 2021, 07:33:05 AM

Quote from: Finntastic on November 03, 2021, 12:55:30 AM

Regarding crypto's I'm not an expert but one of my companies has been dealing with crypto's and blockchain's for about 8-9 years now.

I give you example of why I like Bitcoin as much as I do. FIAT kind of works as long as you have bank account in the same country where you've born or hold passport, live and work. When it comes to international transactions specially SWIFT things get broken. I hold passport from Finland, live in Thailand and had bank account in Hong Kong. When I tried to transfer money from HK to Vietnam to pay for my apartment there it took total of four weeks and then the money bounced back (- massive fees). When we tried to send money from Thailand to Finland, we did 6 visits to bank, total of 100+ documents and 10+ hrs in the end we got money transferred and paid about 3,000 USD in fees (note we had EUR account so there was no currency conversion involved) and finally thanks to EU money laundry laws and my current residency being Thailand about half of my transfer in europe get blocked by the banks. Bank's can decide if I'm allowed to transfer money to my brother for examle or how much. So when it comes to FIAT and banks, I don't really have control over my money, banks and governments can decide who I can send money to or who I can receive money from. With Bitcoin there is none of that + the transfers are pretty much instant so I can pay to anyone on the planet almost instantly without needing any permission from anyone.

When it comes to blockchain there isn't a short answer, however I do want to say this. If I would to be starting company now, I would fully run it with blockchain. Tokens would replace shares, salaries would be paid in tokens and clients would pay in cryptos. Smart contracts would allow payment automation, when certain work is done and enough of token holders will verify it payment will be automatically sent out, also any disputes could be handled with tokens, where random token holders would be called as a "jury" to decide a disputes. A very good example of a platform that would allow to do this kind of stuff is this one: https://aragon.org/ I did recently wrote my master thesis about it.

While I have never lived abroad for an extended period of time, I had investigated the possibility at various points in my life…and never have I heard about protracted difficulties in transferring funds that can only be surmounted using cryptocurrency.

There are other mechanisms for moving money that bypass traditional banking such as Western Union and Xoom.  They work quickly (e.g., when I lost my debit card in Argentina, my gf was able to Xoom me $500 worth of pesos that were available in about three hours (or perhaps a lot less…it was seven years ago).  Low transaction fee, maybe 1%, and their exchange rate was about 50% better than the ‘official’ rate.

This really feels like yet another concocted reason to justify crypto’s existence.  The only real use IMNSHO is for money laundering.

Western Union is actually one that will loose a lot of income while the use of crypto's increase. When it comes to money laundering that is under 1% of the crypto usage according to some recent studies and I bet single big bank say HSBC launders more money than crypto markets also USD cash it's by far the most used currency for illegal activities.

Having said that, this might change though, there are some much more anomonous crypto's out there than BTC or ETH that could have potential user cases for criminals and when the big banks get into crypto's then for sure money laundry will sky rocket.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on November 06, 2021, 08:31:57 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on August 12, 2021, 06:22:04 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on June 11, 2021, 09:34:18 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 21, 2021, 08:08:21 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 09, 2021, 12:40:23 PM

As of close of the markets yesterday, we joined this race for the first time with an aggregate balance of $2.005M across all our savings/retirement/investment accounts.  TNW including home equity is somewhere a little north of $2.4M.

Still holding the line at $2.029M LNW after a couple weeks.  I know we're likely to dip below $2M from time to time, but for now it's fun to see our balances staying (just) above that threshold.

The RE market has been pretty strong here as of late, and SmartZip now estimates our paid-off house at $472k.  Probably unrealistic, but I like how it makes our TNW +/- $2.5M.

LNW was flirting with $2.2M for what seemed like months.  We finally crossed that threshold sometime in the past couple weeks and have stayed there since.  With similar market performance for the rest of the year we could be knocking on the door of $2.5M by end of year, or about $3M TNW.   100k/year @ 4% SWR.  That's nuts.

We crossed $2.3M today.  I don't know why it seemed like such a long time to go from 2.2 to 2.3.  It was only two months.

The recent market run-up brought us to just over $2.4M invested as of COB Thurs.  This last $100k took almost 3 months (cue world's smallest violin).  Closing out the year at $2.5M may be a stretch, but is certainty feasible.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 07, 2021, 08:48:15 PM

Looks like everyone is expecting the market to always go up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: frugalecon on November 08, 2021, 03:39:40 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 07, 2021, 08:48:15 PM

Looks like everyone is expecting the market to always go up.

I don’t. I’m old enough to remember 1987. And the tech meltdown. And 2008-2009. And more recently, December 2018 and, of course, March 2020. It is only a matter of time before something comes along to precipitate a market decline. We just can’t see what it is.

That said, my portfolio of financial assets has increased to more than $3 million this year. Never would have predicted that, either.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 08, 2021, 06:34:34 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 07, 2021, 08:48:15 PM

Looks like everyone is expecting the market to always go up.

No, I also remember the drops from 1987 onwards.   

We expect the market to erratically trend upwards over time.   We expect that the collective brains, hard work, resources and greed of most of the world's major companies to make profits over time.   And we expect that if that turns out not to be true, we'll have such big and immediate problems in front of us that we won't much care what our portfolio used to be worth.

So, why worry?   Volatility is part of the process, and that includes recessions and depressions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 08, 2021, 06:56:51 AM

Quote from: frugalecon on November 08, 2021, 03:39:40 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 07, 2021, 08:48:15 PM

Looks like everyone is expecting the market to always go up.

I don’t. I’m old enough to remember 1987. And the tech meltdown. And 2008-2009. And more recently, December 2018 and, of course, March 2020. It is only a matter of time before something comes along to precipitate a market decline. We just can’t see what it is.

That said, my portfolio of financial assets has increased to more than $3 million this year. Never would have predicted that, either.

I could have written this, but @frugalecon beat me to it. To which I'll add: The market going down is the same as the market having a "Sale". It may happen at irregular intervals, but it's predictable. Like a lot of mustachians, I consider it an opportunity, and opportunities for the prepared are something to look forward to.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 08, 2021, 09:19:46 AM

Quote from: frugalecon on November 08, 2021, 03:39:40 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 07, 2021, 08:48:15 PM

Looks like everyone is expecting the market to always go up.

I don’t. I’m old enough to remember 1987. And the tech meltdown. And 2008-2009. And more recently, December 2018 and, of course, March 2020. It is only a matter of time before something comes along to precipitate a market decline. We just can’t see what it is.

That said, my portfolio of financial assets has increased to more than $3 million this year. Never would have predicted that, either.

I too am old enough that I have also experience all of the above! We started monthly automated investing in index funds in 1998 and it has continued unbroken until now.

I just found an old spreadsheet and here are some progression numbers for our invested net worth:
December 2010 - $1.11M
March 2017 - $3.1M
November 2021 - $6.2M

Wow, this still feels unreal at times!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 08, 2021, 11:29:40 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 08, 2021, 09:19:46 AM

Quote from: frugalecon on November 08, 2021, 03:39:40 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 07, 2021, 08:48:15 PM

Looks like everyone is expecting the market to always go up.

I don’t. I’m old enough to remember 1987. And the tech meltdown. And 2008-2009. And more recently, December 2018 and, of course, March 2020. It is only a matter of time before something comes along to precipitate a market decline. We just can’t see what it is.

That said, my portfolio of financial assets has increased to more than $3 million this year. Never would have predicted that, either.

I too am old enough that I have also experience all of the above! We started monthly automated investing in index funds in 1998 and it has continued unbroken until now.

I just found an old spreadsheet and here are some progression numbers for our invested net worth:
December 2010 - $1.11M
March 2017 - $3.1M
November 2021 - $6.2M

Wow, this still feels unreal at times!

You are in the ".... and Beyond!"  I guess the rules that define many of the rest of us no longer apply to you.

$6,200,000 X .04 = $248,000 per annum

That's $679.45 each day.

That's $28.31 each hour and not an 8 hour day but a 24 hour day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: frugalecon on November 08, 2021, 11:47:47 AM

Quote from: Dicey on November 08, 2021, 06:56:51 AM

Quote from: frugalecon on November 08, 2021, 03:39:40 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 07, 2021, 08:48:15 PM

Looks like everyone is expecting the market to always go up.

I don’t. I’m old enough to remember 1987. And the tech meltdown. And 2008-2009. And more recently, December 2018 and, of course, March 2020. It is only a matter of time before something comes along to precipitate a market decline. We just can’t see what it is.

That said, my portfolio of financial assets has increased to more than $3 million this year. Never would have predicted that, either.

I could have written this, but @frugalecon beat me to it. To which I'll add: The market going down is the same as the market having a "Sale". It may happen at irregular intervals, but it's predictable. Like a lot of mustachians, I consider it an opportunity, and opportunities for the prepared are something to look forward to.

Hey @Dicey, JP Morgan is reputed to have said that “In bear markets, stocks return to their rightful owners.” https://theirrelevantinvestor.com/2020/04/03/their-rightful-owners/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 08, 2021, 12:54:15 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 08, 2021, 11:29:40 AM

You are in the ".... and Beyond!"  I guess the rules that define many of the rest of us no longer apply to you.

$6,200,000 X .04 = $248,000 per annum

That's $679.45 each day.

That's $28.31 each hour and not an 8 hour day but a 24 hour day.

These are fun calculations for sure but the truth is we never expected to be able to save this much. In any case the actual money is going to be lower due to taxes. We are going to be paying a lot of tax when we eventually start taking money out from the tax deferred accounts. Very much a first-world problem :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: frugalecon on November 08, 2021, 01:40:38 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 08, 2021, 09:19:46 AM

Quote from: frugalecon on November 08, 2021, 03:39:40 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 07, 2021, 08:48:15 PM

Looks like everyone is expecting the market to always go up.

I don’t. I’m old enough to remember 1987. And the tech meltdown. And 2008-2009. And more recently, December 2018 and, of course, March 2020. It is only a matter of time before something comes along to precipitate a market decline. We just can’t see what it is.

That said, my portfolio of financial assets has increased to more than $3 million this year. Never would have predicted that, either.

I too am old enough that I have also experience all of the above! We started monthly automated investing in index funds in 1998 and it has continued unbroken until now.

I just found an old spreadsheet and here are some progression numbers for our invested net worth:
December 2010 - $1.11M
March 2017 - $3.1M
November 2021 - $6.2M

Wow, this still feels unreal at times!

What I find interesting about the growth of your portfolio is that both periods reflect just about the same compound annual growth rate, in the range of 17.5% per annum. That is a pretty remarkable growth rate over an 11 year period. A lot of the effect of sustained compounding shows up towards the end of the compounding period. I would be surprised if the next 11 years have a comparable growth rate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 08, 2021, 02:25:41 PM

Quote from: frugalecon on November 08, 2021, 01:40:38 PM

What I find interesting about the growth of your portfolio is that both periods reflect just about the same compound annual growth rate, in the range of 17.5% per annum. That is a pretty remarkable growth rate over an 11 year period. A lot of the effect of sustained compounding shows up towards the end of the compounding period. I would be surprised if the next 11 years have a comparable growth rate.

According to the S&P 500 dividends reinvested Calculator (https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/), its 15.361% annualized return.

So, I did only a little bit better than the S&P 500. Probably this is because I did also buy the Dow 30 tracking ETF regularly for many years. I recall that after the 1987 crash, shares mostly stagnated until about 1995 when the tech bubble started expanding. Buying index funds in the early 1990s days felt like an exercise in futility.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: frugalecon on November 08, 2021, 03:07:26 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 08, 2021, 02:25:41 PM

Quote from: frugalecon on November 08, 2021, 01:40:38 PM

What I find interesting about the growth of your portfolio is that both periods reflect just about the same compound annual growth rate, in the range of 17.5% per annum. That is a pretty remarkable growth rate over an 11 year period. A lot of the effect of sustained compounding shows up towards the end of the compounding period. I would be surprised if the next 11 years have a comparable growth rate.

According to the S&P 500 dividends reinvested Calculator (https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/), its 15.361% annualized return.

So, I did only a little bit better than the S&P 500. Probably this is because I did also buy the Dow 30 tracking ETF regularly for many years. I recall that after the 1987 crash, shares mostly stagnated until about 1995 when the tech bubble started expanding. Buying index funds in the early 1990s days felt like an exercise in futility.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Of course, another factor contributing to the growth of your portfolio is your additions to the portfolio. Early in one’s investing career that accounts for a big chunk of the annual growth, less so later. I am still working, so still adding, but that only accounts for a small piece of the growth rate of my portfolio. This year net contributions will only be about 2.5% of the portfolio value at the beginning of the year. It is fun to get to the point where the portfolio largely just grows organically.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on November 09, 2021, 07:22:58 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 08, 2021, 02:25:41 PM

Quote from: frugalecon on November 08, 2021, 01:40:38 PM

What I find interesting about the growth of your portfolio is that both periods reflect just about the same compound annual growth rate, in the range of 17.5% per annum. That is a pretty remarkable growth rate over an 11 year period. A lot of the effect of sustained compounding shows up towards the end of the compounding period. I would be surprised if the next 11 years have a comparable growth rate.

According to the S&P 500 dividends reinvested Calculator (https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/), its 15.361% annualized return.

So, I did only a little bit better than the S&P 500. Probably this is because I did also buy the Dow 30 tracking ETF regularly for many years. I recall that after the 1987 crash, shares mostly stagnated until about 1995 when the tech bubble started expanding. Buying index funds in the early 1990s days felt like an exercise in futility.

You seem to have beaten me pretty handily.  I looked back to match up those dates for me for invested assets:

December 2010 - $700k
March 2017 - $1.4M
November 2021 - $3.85M

It looks great for the latter period for me, but $800k of that increase was profit from a great business year I was able to invest at the beginning of 2019.
I'm guessing the drag was that my portfolio has been closer to VT than VTI/s&p500, and the international piece has definitely under-performed over the past decade.  I guess there's also one now significant part of my NW that built up completely in that time period I don't count in here (the $400k worth of 529s for all my kids that they are starting to use now)

I do agree its quite the revelation when you realize your income is such a small piece of your NW.  The main thing that convinces me re: my RE in a few months is not that I'm so certain the market can't perform so poorly that my ~4%SWR can't be tested, but rather that a couple more years of income wouldn't make that much a difference to it even if it did  (certainly not as much as tiny withdrawal tweaks could do over the years).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 09, 2021, 03:57:01 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 13, 2014, 06:32:33 AM

I don't think I can go full Mustachian.  I'm going to need at least 2 million working for me before I retire.  I do not feel rich or comfortable having passed the 1 million mark.  I admire those who can make it work on less.

2014.  About 1 million.

2018.  About 2 million

2021   Almost 3.2 million

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: American GenX on November 09, 2021, 05:18:27 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 09, 2021, 03:57:01 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 13, 2014, 06:32:33 AM

I don't think I can go full Mustachian.  I'm going to need at least 2 million working for me before I retire.  I do not feel rich or comfortable having passed the 1 million mark.  I admire those who can make it work on less.

2014.  About 1 million.
2018.  About 2 million
2021   Almost 3.2 million

I was about to agree with the post you replied to and add that I feel even less rich with inflation skyrocketing these days, despite having over $2M, then I noticed that post was from 2014!   You should be able to afford a nice lifestyle in Citrus County.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 09, 2021, 05:56:08 PM

Quote from: American GenX on November 09, 2021, 05:18:27 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 09, 2021, 03:57:01 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 13, 2014, 06:32:33 AM

I don't think I can go full Mustachian.  I'm going to need at least 2 million working for me before I retire.  I do not feel rich or comfortable having passed the 1 million mark.  I admire those who can make it work on less.

2014.  About 1 million.
2018.  About 2 million
2021   Almost 3.2 million

I was about to agree with the post you replied to and add that I feel even less rich with inflation skyrocketing these days, despite having over $2M, then I noticed that post was from 2014!   You should be able to afford a nice lifestyle in Citrus County.

I'm not quite as astute as some on this thread.  I'm working another 18 months before tossing in the towel.  That should help bunker the savings.  Citrus County Florida is an affordable place to live as well as beautiful.   Good luck to you in your journey.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 11, 2021, 10:48:15 AM

I know we generally don't count RE on this thread. Our rentals have seen a huge appreciation spike in the last year. We are in the process of re-fi-ing them, so I thought I'd look at the numbers.

Drumroll please...our RE portfolio, net of mortgages, is $2.67M. Add everything else in and we're in "Beyond" territory, which absolutely blows my mind. Squeeee!

It's theoretical, because our primary would go for over the estimates and I can't quite grok the new valueations on the rentals. That and we're not selling anything, but it was a pleasant surprise. I bought my first house in 1988 for $101k.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 11, 2021, 11:18:25 AM

Quote from: Dicey on November 11, 2021, 10:48:15 AM

Drumroll please...our RE portfolio, net of mortgages, is $2.67M. Add everything else in and we're in "Beyond" territory, which absolutely blows my mind. Squeeee!

Wow - that's amazing! What's your typical income from the rentals every year, if I may ask?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: catccc on November 11, 2021, 02:24:48 PM

Popping in this thread, although possibly slightly prematurely.

12/31/18 $932K
12/31/19 $1.265
12/31/20 $1.606

Random updates from this year:
02/22/21 $1.705
04/06/21 $1.760
09/28/21 $1.832
11/10/21 $1.926

This doesn't include primary home equity, which we just bought in July of this year.  We put down about $103K on a $513K home.  With our home equity, we are over the $2M mark.  I mostly like to hold that home equity off to the side and pretend it isn't a thing most of the time.  But today I want to pop in here and be excited about possibilities.

I always thought we'd quit working somewhere north of $2M, but I want some serious security.  We've lived lean for so long and maybe we can continue that, but maybe we want to do a lot of things to our new home that will cost $.  And the kiddos will get older and car insurance isn't cheap with teens.  And healthcare is a big wild card.  There's just a lot of unknowns and I would feel a lot better with twice as much stashed than we have now.  The problem is what happens if/when we get to that and I'd feel a lot better with twice as much as we will have stashed then...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 11, 2021, 05:14:15 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 11, 2021, 11:18:25 AM

Quote from: Dicey on November 11, 2021, 10:48:15 AM

Drumroll please...our RE portfolio, net of mortgages, is $2.67M. Add everything else in and we're in "Beyond" territory, which absolutely blows my mind. Squeeee!

Wow - that's amazing! What's your typical income from the rentals every year, if I may ask?

Hmmm, not actually sure, for two reasons. DH handles all of that, plus we're in the middle of refinancing. First one is done, second one is approved and in process. The third one may not make sense to refi, so we'll see. We don't use the rental income for living expenses, so I don't pay as much attention as I used to. In fact, when the second re-fi is done, we're going to close the account with the bank that held the loans. Our MPP is we're not sure what to do with the balance. We were planning to use the money to buy another rental, but prices are nuts right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on November 12, 2021, 06:15:46 AM

Quote from: catccc on November 11, 2021, 02:24:48 PM

I always thought we'd quit working somewhere north of $2M, but I want some serious security.  We've lived lean for so long and maybe we can continue that, but maybe we want to do a lot of things to our new home that will cost $.  And the kiddos will get older and car insurance isn't cheap with teens.  And healthcare is a big wild card.  There's just a lot of unknowns and I would feel a lot better with twice as much stashed than we have now.  The problem is what happens if/when we get to that and I'd feel a lot better with twice as much as we will have stashed then...

My kids are all teens now and they seem to keep getting more expensive.  Driving is near and when it does we can expect insurance to increase by $2-3k with the first one, not sure what happens when the other two get there.  Then college will come. 

But all those expenses are temporary (or transitory in FED speak) and mostly included in our spending plans.   So when we get the kids off the payroll and overhead we hopefully/likely will find that we oversaved and have quite a bit more than needed.  But there are plenty of things that could also detail that too.  So who knows

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 12, 2021, 07:00:33 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on November 12, 2021, 06:15:46 AM

Quote from: catccc on November 11, 2021, 02:24:48 PM

I always thought we'd quit working somewhere north of $2M, but I want some serious security.  We've lived lean for so long and maybe we can continue that, but maybe we want to do a lot of things to our new home that will cost $.  And the kiddos will get older and car insurance isn't cheap with teens.  And healthcare is a big wild card.  There's just a lot of unknowns and I would feel a lot better with twice as much stashed than we have now.  The problem is what happens if/when we get to that and I'd feel a lot better with twice as much as we will have stashed then...

My kids are all teens now and they seem to keep getting more expensive.  Driving is near and when it does we can expect insurance to increase by $2-3k with the first one, not sure what happens when the other two get there.  Then college will come. 

But all those expenses are temporary (or transitory in FED speak) and mostly included in our spending plans.   So when we get the kids off the payroll and overhead we hopefully/likely will find that we oversaved and have quite a bit more than needed.  But there are plenty of things that could also detail that too.  So who knows

Hitting FI gave me the breathing room and clarity to figure out what I really wanted.  Turned out, once I didn't 'have to' work, I actually enjoyed the whole set up a whole lot more.  Our lifestyle has inflated a bit in real terms (quite a bit in nominal terms!) so having cash flow does have its upside, although we'd be fine with the markets being what they have been.  Another upside of continued work, there's a lot of talk of raises and larger bonuses.  Not that I need more, but it still feels nice.

On a side note, having a routine built around my work during the Pandemic has been a life-saver for me.  This is probably just how I'm built, and I look forward to travel and attending events in ER, but I imagine 2020 and most of 2021 would've been a slog.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on November 12, 2021, 10:47:59 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on November 12, 2021, 06:15:46 AM

My kids are all teens now and they seem to keep getting more expensive.  Driving is near and when it does we can expect insurance to increase by $2-3k with the first one, not sure what happens when the other two get there.  Then college will come. 

But all those expenses are temporary (or transitory in FED speak) and mostly included in our spending plans.   So when we get the kids off the payroll and overhead we hopefully/likely will find that we oversaved and have quite a bit more than needed.  But there are plenty of things that could also detail that too.  So who knows

Seeing the word "temporary" has me sitting back a bit with a smirk on my face thinking "we'll see".

I have a 25 year old and a 21 year old.  I'll let you know when any of them are off, out of the house and independent.  I'd honestly estimate in a decade, perhaps.  Not before.  On the bright side, the $300k for engineering school is behind us for son #1 and he has an excellent job that's a perfect fit and pays very well.  He also owns 2 cool cars (new STi and Honda S2000).  Sure...some kids graduate, find a job miles away and are truly out of the house.  I have not experienced that beyond myself when I graduated college.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 12, 2021, 12:23:13 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on November 12, 2021, 10:47:59 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on November 12, 2021, 06:15:46 AM

My kids are all teens now and they seem to keep getting more expensive.  Driving is near and when it does we can expect insurance to increase by $2-3k with the first one, not sure what happens when the other two get there.  Then college will come. 

But all those expenses are temporary (or transitory in FED speak) and mostly included in our spending plans.   So when we get the kids off the payroll and overhead we hopefully/likely will find that we oversaved and have quite a bit more than needed.  But there are plenty of things that could also detail that too.  So who knows

Seeing the word "temporary" has me sitting back a bit with a smirk on my face thinking "we'll see".

I have a 25 year old and a 21 year old.  I'll let you know when any of them are off, out of the house and independent.  I'd honestly estimate in a decade, perhaps.  Not before.  On the bright side, the $300k for engineering school is behind us for son #1 and he has an excellent job that's a perfect fit and pays very well.  He also owns 2 cool cars (new STi and Honda S2000).  Sure...some kids graduate, find a job miles away and are truly out of the house.  I have not experienced that beyond myself when I graduated college.

Wow!  Three hundred thousand to get a degree!  Times have changed and not all for the better.  Was it a state school or a private school?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on November 12, 2021, 01:21:11 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on November 12, 2021, 10:47:59 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on November 12, 2021, 06:15:46 AM

My kids are all teens now and they seem to keep getting more expensive.  Driving is near and when it does we can expect insurance to increase by $2-3k with the first one, not sure what happens when the other two get there.  Then college will come. 

But all those expenses are temporary (or transitory in FED speak) and mostly included in our spending plans.   So when we get the kids off the payroll and overhead we hopefully/likely will find that we oversaved and have quite a bit more than needed.  But there are plenty of things that could also detail that too.  So who knows

Seeing the word "temporary" has me sitting back a bit with a smirk on my face thinking "we'll see".

I have a 25 year old and a 21 year old.  I'll let you know when any of them are off, out of the house and independent.  I'd honestly estimate in a decade, perhaps.  Not before.  On the bright side, the $300k for engineering school is behind us for son #1 and he has an excellent job that's a perfect fit and pays very well.  He also owns 2 cool cars (new STi and Honda S2000).  Sure...some kids graduate, find a job miles away and are truly out of the house.  I have not experienced that beyond myself when I graduated college.

Well if #1 has a good job and two cool cars I would think he should be firmly on his own dime.  So then that leaves #2 as the ?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: savingstldad on November 12, 2021, 01:58:33 PM

I have my oldest in college now.  He did well in high school but received pretty standard scholarships.  With room/board/tuition and a comprehensive meal plan it costs me about $6500 per semester to send him to the University of Missouri.  I'm not really shocked by some of these costs I see thrown around for college because I've been hearing about it for years.  I just thought I'd share my experience on that front so people know it doesn't have to be so insanely expensive.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 12, 2021, 02:10:32 PM

Public universities in NC are fairly inexpensive, it's in the state constitution.
Some are even less expensive, five NC universities are extremely inexpensive.  For example, one near us is $3500 per year (plus books) for those who live at home and commute to school, assuming they're on their parent's health insurance. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 12, 2021, 02:47:04 PM

There is a great deal of variation in the opinions of what parents should do for their kids' college educations and what the best route is.  Two areas of great variation are (1) how much the parents should pay, and (2) what the "best" college choice is for the student.

Some parents are willing to and thing it is "best" to pay for the best school a kid can get into, and that it's worth the $75K a year to go to Rice or Oberlin or MIT or Yale.  The value of connections, top notch jobs, and the college experience of being taught by Nobel laureates and eating at the dining hall with the children of famous people is worth it to some.

Others think a degree is more of a commodity or checklist item and it's the student themselves who determines the outcome in terms of job and career.  These parents can see that a school that is adequate to good can be an order of magnitude cheaper and maybe it's better for the kid to have a college degree from an in-state public and $270K in the bank.

I think there are elements of truth to the above two endpoints and that things vary across the entire spectrum in between.  I've observed great variation in my own family in terms of which schools the students have chosen, the out-of-pocket price tags, and the results.  Most of us are working with small sample sizes of only a few children, and we want to believe that our chosen strategy was a good one.  The kid who ended up paying $300K for their education and got a great job - well, maybe they needed that degree from that school to get that job, maybe not.  The kid who got the public school degree for $30K may have had an entirely different life if they had just roomed at Princeton with the kid of a Silicon Valley robotics startup.  We can't roll back time and test the counterfactual.

I'm glad people think about it a lot and put a lot of effort into it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on November 12, 2021, 05:07:31 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 09, 2021, 05:56:08 PM

Quote from: American GenX on November 09, 2021, 05:18:27 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 09, 2021, 03:57:01 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 13, 2014, 06:32:33 AM

I don't think I can go full Mustachian.  I'm going to need at least 2 million working for me before I retire.  I do not feel rich or comfortable having passed the 1 million mark.  I admire those who can make it work on less.

2014.  About 1 million.
2018.  About 2 million
2021   Almost 3.2 million

I was about to agree with the post you replied to and add that I feel even less rich with inflation skyrocketing these days, despite having over $2M, then I noticed that post was from 2014!   You should be able to afford a nice lifestyle in Citrus County.

I'm not quite as astute as some on this thread.  I'm working another 18 months before tossing in the towel.  That should help bunker the savings.  Citrus County Florida is an affordable place to live as well as beautiful.   Good luck to you in your journey.

I understand @Bateaux , lately I've been thinking of $3.25M as my "number" but this is still a few years in the future for me and I can certainly see how if I were just hitting that mark today, I would have some reservations about pulling the cord right now.  Namely 6.2% inflation, a supply chain trainwreck and a pandemic that seems to be holding on longer than it should.   I suppose that's the challenge with planning that far out....once you get there you can't help but to re-evaluate in light of the current circumstances that you find yourself in.  Good luck to you!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on November 12, 2021, 06:19:13 PM

My original FIRE number was a million dollars by age 40. Then we hit 1.5 and started thinking seriously about it. Then the pandemic hit and I was like, WFH and still get big bucks, cool! Now we’re at $3M and just enjoying the ride until I want to get off of it. In the meantime, maybe 3 will go to 4 or beyond, and that wouldn’t be bad. But we figured out a couple of years ago that we could maintain our current lifestyle on two minimum wage jobs. Frankly I’d prefer to make 15x minimum wage and have more freedom in my work even if there is some more stress. The stress level goes way down when the worst thing that could happen is I don’t have to deal with it anymore. Keep going as long as you feel like it, Bateaux.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 12, 2021, 08:15:48 PM

Yeh, as Arcturus noted, it looks like the inflation is here.

https://www.reuters.com/business/us-consumer-prices-surge-weekly-jobless-claims-fall-2021-11-10/ (https://www.reuters.com/business/us-consumer-prices-surge-weekly-jobless-claims-fall-2021-11-10/)

They say it's a "global shortage" of workers.

We do live in interesting times.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 12, 2021, 10:30:17 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 17, 2020, 10:27:37 PM

With no clue as how to turn this jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement, I'm going to move the goal posts out another 500K and see if that brings more clarity.   1.5 million was gonna be it.  Silly me.  Then 2 million.  Nope not a clue yet.  Then 2.5 million.  Nope, if anything I'm more nervous than ever.  Moving on to 3 million. That's got to be it right?  We'll see.  Probably more an age now than a number. Everthing gets easier taxwise at 55.  1077 days to go.

Well the 3 million mark was reached.  Lots of days have passed.   That 1077 days are now 548.  In no time that will be less than a year.  I think my wife will retire in September, 2022.  May 2023 for me.  I have it better than ever at work, almost scary easy.
The inflation threat isn't all that great for those in this thread. Most here have had a 500K or more portfolio increase in the last year alone!  We're not worried about the price of gasoline all that much.  We're headed to our Florida house Monday for a week.  Let's say it takes 75 gallons round trip.  At $2 a gallon that's $150 dollars.  At $4 a gallon it's $300.   You think $150 will keep me from going to my house?  Our wealth increased over $1500 dollars a day, everyday in the past 365 days.  I just gleefully filled the 34 gallon tank of my Expedition.  Before inflation even puts a dent in our budget, the common folks will be in the streets with pitchforks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on November 14, 2021, 08:07:58 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 12, 2021, 02:10:32 PM

Public universities in NC are fairly inexpensive, it's in the state constitution.
Some are even less expensive, five NC universities are extremely inexpensive.  For example, one near us is $3500 per year (plus books) for those who live at home and commute to school, assuming they're on their parent's health insurance.

I've certainly seen how big a difference states can make.  I went to school myself in NC, and have nieces/nephews doing that now.  But I'm in PA where the large state schools tuition is twice what they are in NC.  Given costs of living are such a big part of school costs, and the fact private schools tend to give large discounts vs. state schools, I've found the costs of our private schools to be fairly similar to the large public universities, something I never thought would have been the case before I lived here.  The smaller state schools in PA are the 'true' state schools (as far as solid funding goes) and priced more like NC.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on November 14, 2021, 11:41:23 AM

There are several regional public university tuition exchange programs that can drop the cost for students attending a public university that is outside their state but within the program's region -- I am most familiar with the Western University Exchange program, but it looks like there are similar programs for certain states in the Northeast, Midwest and South:

https://www.nasfaa.org/State_Regional_Tuition_Exchanges

The way WUE works is that the participating universities charge out of state students applying through the consortium only 150% of the in-state tuition.  In some cases that means tuition for an out of state school may be lower than in state tuition costs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 14, 2021, 08:08:34 PM

Quote from: lhamo on November 14, 2021, 11:41:23 AM

There are several regional public university tuition exchange programs that can drop the cost for students attending a public university that is outside their state but within the program's region -- I am most familiar with the Western University Exchange program, but it looks like there are similar programs for certain states in the Northeast, Midwest and South:

https://www.nasfaa.org/State_Regional_Tuition_Exchanges

The way WUE works is that the participating universities charge out of state students applying through the consortium only 150% of the in-state tuition.  In some cases that means tuition for an out of state school may be lower than in state tuition costs.

I think progressive states do better in providing educational options in that manner.

Minnesota has reciprocity agreements with Wisconsin, North Dakota, and South Dakota. It also has an agreement with the Canadian province of Manitoba, and a limited agreement with Iowa Lakes Community College in northwestern Iowa.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on November 15, 2021, 12:34:45 PM

I guess some people would think it funny to realize that there are couple of multi millionaires hiking to the airport like college students. Don't think anyone is going to see us hiking to the airport and realize that, though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 15, 2021, 04:32:59 PM

Holy crap!  What have I gotten myself into!
https://teamrubiconusa.org/
I've joined Team Rubicon.  Team Rubicon is a rapid disaster response civilian organization.  I've been training for this my while life.  About 80 percent of the members are prior military.  I saw them working in my state of Louisiana helping Hurricane Ida victims.  I was doing this anyway in my own home town.  But, disasters strike everywhere.  The thousands of hours I've trained for this shouldn't be wasted.  It's not a paid position in money, but we've got plenty of that.  It's about love and giving back. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 15, 2021, 05:47:07 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 15, 2021, 04:32:59 PM

Holy crap!  What have I gotten myself into!
https://teamrubiconusa.org/
I've joined Team Rubicon.  Team Rubicon is a rapid disaster response civilian organization.  I've been training for this my while life.  About 80 percent of the members are prior military.  I saw them working in my state of Louisiana helping Hurricane Ida victims.  I was doing this anyway in my own home town.  But, disasters strike everywhere.  The thousands of hours I've trained for this shouldn't be wasted.  It's not a paid position in money, but we've got plenty of that.  It's about love and giving back.

That's a great idea, and thank you for volunteering.   But the name gives me the creeps given the political climate amongst the alt-right.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 15, 2021, 06:18:09 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 15, 2021, 05:47:07 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 15, 2021, 04:32:59 PM

Holy crap!  What have I gotten myself into!
https://teamrubiconusa.org/
I've joined Team Rubicon.  Team Rubicon is a rapid disaster response civilian organization.  I've been training for this my while life.  About 80 percent of the members are prior military.  I saw them working in my state of Louisiana helping Hurricane Ida victims.  I was doing this anyway in my own home town.  But, disasters strike everywhere.  The thousands of hours I've trained for this shouldn't be wasted.  It's not a paid position in money, but we've got plenty of that.  It's about love and giving back.

That's a great idea, and thank you for volunteering.   But the name gives me the creeps given the political climate amongst the alt-right.

I think they have contained the politics raging across the country.   From what I've learned they are open all and would be opposed to alt right movements.  They promote a culture of mutual respect and care.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 16, 2021, 06:03:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 15, 2021, 06:18:09 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 15, 2021, 05:47:07 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 15, 2021, 04:32:59 PM

Holy crap!  What have I gotten myself into!
https://teamrubiconusa.org/
I've joined Team Rubicon.  Team Rubicon is a rapid disaster response civilian organization.  I've been training for this my while life.  About 80 percent of the members are prior military.  I saw them working in my state of Louisiana helping Hurricane Ida victims.  I was doing this anyway in my own home town.  But, disasters strike everywhere.  The thousands of hours I've trained for this shouldn't be wasted.  It's not a paid position in money, but we've got plenty of that.  It's about love and giving back.

That's a great idea, and thank you for volunteering.   But the name gives me the creeps given the political climate amongst the alt-right.

I think they have contained the politics raging across the country.   From what I've learned they are open all and would be opposed to alt right movements.  They promote a culture of mutual respect and care.

The name Team Rubicon makes me think of Jeeps.

The link to their website shows that they do a lot of good.  A quick glance didn't show any overt politics.  I think helping people is kind of a left wing thing myself, i.e. soup kitchens, etc.  It's good you are putting your skills to the best use possible,......helping people who need it.   And,.....you might just get great satisfaction doing it.

If this climate change thing is true like the people on the internet say, you might be busy with lots of hurricanes in the next few years.  Hurricanes won't care about the politics.

You are setting a good example for some of us.

I guess I could do something like that as I pass into the "......and Beyond!"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 16, 2021, 07:15:25 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 16, 2021, 06:03:17 AM

The name Team Rubicon makes me think of Jeeps.

It makes me think of starting a coup or a civil war.

Crossing the Rubicon is the historical phrase with that meaning.  It goes all the way back to when Julius Caesar destroyed the Roman Republic and became dictator.   So when a bunch of military-oriented people get together under such a name, particularly in a year where we've already had an attempt at destroying our Republic and we've got retired generals fomenting treason, it gives me the creeps.

Glad to know that apparently the name was picked for a jeep.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MoseyingAlong on November 16, 2021, 07:28:58 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 16, 2021, 07:15:25 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 16, 2021, 06:03:17 AM

The name Team Rubicon makes me think of Jeeps.

It makes me think of starting a coup or a civil war.

Crossing the Rubicon is the historical phrase with that meaning.  It goes all the way back to when Julius Caesar destroyed the Roman Republic and became dictator.   So when a bunch of military-oriented people get together under such a name, particularly in a year where we've already had an attempt at destroying our Republic and we've got retired generals fomenting treason, it gives me the creeps.

Glad to know that apparently the name was picked for a jeep.

Team Rubicon was founded in 2010.
I find their story and both parts of their mission compelling. I've signed up with them but haven't deployed yet.

https://teamrubiconusa.org/story/
"When Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon at the head of his legions and marched on Rome, it marked a point of no return. The phrase “crossing the Rubicon” has since survived in reference to any group committing itself to a risky course of action.

Crossing over the Artibonite River, the natural border between the Dominican Republic and Haiti, the small team of eight volunteers called themselves “Team Rubicon” in reference to the Rubicon River in Rome – by crossing their Rubicon, the team acknowledged they were irrevocably committed to their task of helping those in need."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 16, 2021, 11:12:02 PM

MoseyingAlong, very happy to see you may be getting involved.  They appear to be a good group.  I think their hearts are in the right place.  Adopting their culture would be very natural for me. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Extramedium on November 19, 2021, 09:30:06 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 16, 2021, 11:12:02 PM

MoseyingAlong, very happy to see you may be getting involved.  They appear to be a good group.  I think their hearts are in the right place.  Adopting their culture would be very natural for me.

Yes, organization looks great, doing ethical work.  Good job making yourself available for deployment.  Thank you!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 20, 2021, 11:01:26 AM

I just read through the active topic about living on 25k or less (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/is-anyone-here-still-actually-aiming-for-under-mmm's-original-25k-a-year-figure/).

What do you $2M-$4M'ers think about this? We definitely don't live on $25k per year. On the other hand, I think we are very low spenders by the standards of people in our income group. For many years, we lived on my salary and saved almost all of my wife's salary. We have lived in the same house for over 25 years and still have modest cars that we keep for a minimum of ten years. We really don't buy a lot of stuff in general and we don't travel a lot either. We don't have any expensive hobbies either.

Our expenses are higher than many (except probably the Bay Area crowd), mainly because of where we choose to live - right across the Hudson river from Manhattan. But we like it here and have no plans of moving and we can afford it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 20, 2021, 12:14:04 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 20, 2021, 11:01:26 AM

What do you $2M-$4M'ers think about this?

We don't and haven't had any desire to do so in this millennium. 

We have hobbies, we want to travel, and watching out spending to get it to that level would have been too much work.

Besides, we have a special needs child who can't take care of themselves, so it was essential that we plan for an extra extra extra level of financial safety so there would be money to assist in taking good care of her.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on November 20, 2021, 01:13:29 PM

We will likely have individual years that are that low, but are unwilling to commit to it for the remainder of our lives.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on November 20, 2021, 01:23:25 PM

There are a few of us who have commented on that thread already.

We are in that range on a per-person basis.  Once my kids launch and I downsize i will probably be in that range for just myself, though I may choose to blow it out of the water for travel or other splurges.  I am more of a saver than a spender generally.  Get more satisfaction out of finding ways to get stuff free or inexpensively -- for things that are used but still good quality -- rather than buying new.  Spending less on my own needs and desires while still meeting the big ones means I will have more to give to others, which is also something I value. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Extramedium on November 20, 2021, 02:02:01 PM

We are definitely not cut out for keeping our expenses at $25k/year.  I know this is an uncommon position in the MMM world, but I think frugality is not a binary value, and our own attempts at gravitating away from the more typical consumerist American lifestyle to be worthwhile still.  We have some hobbies that we really love, including mountain biking, skiing, and travel, that add richness to our lives -as well as to our budgets.  Our DDs play fancy violins in fancy youth symphonies, enjoy some kid sports and summer camps, and love doing these activities.  We're not FI yet (though closer every day!), though I would be with lower baseline expenses.  But my RE will be more meaningful and exciting for me if I wait and build a little more.  Which is convenient, as I still like my employer and my work.

I could defend my position more by describing all the ways we don't spend money like people in our peer groups locally (family, professional, kids' school friends), such as older, cheaper house than we could "afford", older cars, no cable, etc., but I think getting hung up on those details isn't as important as figuring out what priorities represent value to us.  No shame, we're doing our best.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on November 20, 2021, 02:13:10 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 20, 2021, 11:01:26 AM

I just read through the active topic about living on 25k or less (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/is-anyone-here-still-actually-aiming-for-under-mmm's-original-25k-a-year-figure/).

What do you $2M-$4M'ers think about this? We definitely don't live on $25k per year. On the other hand, I think we are very low spenders by the standards of people in our income group. For many years, we lived on my salary and saved almost all of my wife's salary. We have lived in the same house for over 25 years and still have modest cars that we keep for a minimum of ten years. We really don't buy a lot of stuff in general and we don't travel a lot either. We don't have any expensive hobbies either.

Our expenses are higher than many (except probably the Bay Area crowd), mainly because of where we choose to live - right across the Hudson river from Manhattan. But we like it here and have no plans of moving and we can afford it.

My annual spend has been about $25K/year since I retired in 2015.  But my $ are separate from Spouse’s, and there are a few household bills I don’t cover (internet, water/sewer/ garbage, streaming services, cell phone, property tax).  I cover gas, electric, insurance (house, cars, personal liability).  We both cover costs for our own car, medical, and each buy groceries, but I buy more in this category as chief cook and bottle washer.

So, together we both spend more than $25K.  Spouse buys more stuff than I do (hence our money is separate….).  I still have plenty of unnecessary spends in my budget, so could cut back if needed. I doubt Spouse will ever cut back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 20, 2021, 05:51:46 PM

I have lived on 25k/yr in my 20's, when I was single and just starting out.  As a family of four, we live on less than 25k/yr per person, not counting income and property taxes, but that's probably not that impressive.  We also don't have a mortgage, car loans, or significant dental or medical expenses, which can be budget killers for people that are unfortunate through no fault of their own... 

Houston is a relatively LCOL area, we can order in and eat out regularly and have maids clean very inexpensively.  So I'm not entirely sure how answering this one question can even be informative without a whole lot of explanation and, with all the shenanigans bloggers play about 'core living expenses' and not counting imputed costs (like having a paid off house and cars), the discussion has ceased to really interest me.  I try to spend mindfully and teach my children not to be wasteful, but eventually our assets are going to need to go somewhere...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: billsfan1_2000 on November 21, 2021, 06:45:38 AM

Hello, y'all.....

As I've mentioned before here previously (I am a loyal reader but only occasional poster) I am hanging it up as of March 1 2023, after one more bonus round and restricted share payout at mega bank.

I will be 58 at the time hence need to bridge to age 65 where Medicare, SS and defined benefit pension kick in.  Health instance will be major concern.....looking like mostly cost will be between $1,000 - $1,200 per month.  Total annual spending is in the $70k per year range.

Sooo...on the date I retire I will have $2.1M in investable cash to put to work to fund expenses <can't touch the $2M in 401k/IRA, yet>. 

$2.1M times 5% produces passive income of over $100k which is MORE than adequate......

Sooo...apart from my googling "best income fund for retirement"....do any of you have suggestions for what to look at and places to park cash that will produce this almighty yield? 

Any thoughts whatsoever most welcome!!!!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on November 21, 2021, 09:11:01 AM

I have a spread sheet with "expected expenses" that has things like medical at $12k, property tax at $8800 and groceries at $10,400, which I feel are all reasonable.  $25k a year?  Maybe for a single person living in an apartment or something.  For DW and me with some remaining expenses for our 2 20 something year old kids, we're at $67k expected.  We do have plenty to pay for that, so that's not a problem.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LoanShark on November 21, 2021, 10:02:54 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on November 21, 2021, 06:45:38 AM

Hello, y'all.....

As I've mentioned before here previously (I am a loyal reader but only occasional poster) I am hanging it up as of March 1 2023, after one more bonus round and restricted share payout at mega bank.

I will be 58 at the time hence need to bridge to age 65 where Medicare, SS and defined benefit pension kick in.  Health instance will be major concern.....looking like mostly cost will be between $1,000 - $1,200 per month.  Total annual spending is in the $70k per year range.

Sooo...on the date I retire I will have $2.1M in investable cash to put to work to fund expenses <can't touch the $2M in 401k/IRA, yet>. 

$2.1M times 5% produces passive income of over $100k which is MORE than adequate......

Sooo...apart from my googling "best income fund for retirement"....do any of you have suggestions for what to look at and places to park cash that will produce this almighty yield? 

Any thoughts whatsoever most welcome!!!!!

Congrats on being just over a year out! So you're saying that you'll have $2.1MM of actual cash at that point, excluding your retirement accounts? I would definitely get that invested...especially in a year where inflation is >5% like it is, year to date.

With regard to dividends, plenty of funds / ETF's that are designed to max dividends, i.e. SCHB through Schwab which pays 2.8%. You could also look at BDC's that pay pretty high dividend yields.

The safe withdrawal rate concept isn't really based on dividends though, it's more of a function of the average annual return of the stock market indices minus inflation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 21, 2021, 10:10:39 AM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on November 21, 2021, 06:45:38 AM

Hello, y'all.....

As I've mentioned before here previously (I am a loyal reader but only occasional poster) I am hanging it up as of March 1 2023, after one more bonus round and restricted share payout at mega bank.

I will be 58 at the time hence need to bridge to age 65 where Medicare, SS and defined benefit pension kick in.  Health instance will be major concern.....looking like mostly cost will be between $1,000 - $1,200 per month.  Total annual spending is in the $70k per year range.

Sooo...on the date I retire I will have $2.1M in investable cash to put to work to fund expenses <can't touch the $2M in 401k/IRA, yet>. 

$2.1M times 5% produces passive income of over $100k which is MORE than adequate......

Sooo...apart from my googling "best income fund for retirement"....do any of you have suggestions for what to look at and places to park cash that will produce this almighty yield? 

Any thoughts whatsoever most welcome!!!!!

On health care, the two most common choices are COBRA and ACA.  With the subsidies (assuming an AGI of $70K), depending on your family size, it'll probably be less expensive than you expect.  But if you like very high quality health insurance, you may not like what are typically small provider networks of the ACA.

Even though you can't touch the $2M yet, many people still include it in their FIRE stash in terms of calculating the 4% (or 5% if you're aggressive) number.  So many people would think you could take 4% * ($2.1M + $2M) = $205K per year.  The only thing here is to make sure you can handle the pre-59.5 age period.  Obviously if you have $2.1M in accessible assets and only 1.5 years to age 59.5 (when you can access 401k and IRA without penalty), you're fine here.

Many people no longer set up their portfolio for income the way you're describing.  What I do is invest in low-cost, total-market index funds, take whatever dividends they throw off (about 1% to 2%) and spend those, then sell shares as needed a few times a year.  I don't know exactly, but since I retired early six years ago - which has been a pretty lucky time so far, but historically still in the middle somewhere - my portfolio has grown about 10% a year.

So the suggestion would be to look at total return, not just dividend or yield.  (In your case, if you only take $100K a year, then you're really at about a 2% withdrawal rate, so you're really close to living on dividends anyway.)

Further, depending on how you're accounting for taxes (i.e., whether you're including them in that $70K or not), it turns out that a FIREd life can be lived at the same quality level on a lot less money.  That's because taxes are quite progressive  in that $70K to $200K income range, and - here's the important part - when you FIRE, you will end up paying taxes on what you spend ($70K), not what you earn ($200K or whatever).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 21, 2021, 10:59:34 AM

Even better.... @billsfan1_2000 if you spend after  (edit: after tax) investments your Federal tax bill will be $zero.. assuming you are married (i.e within the 12% tax bracket and living on long term cap gains and qualified dividends).

Secondly remember your MAGI is only the GAIN on the capital that you draw out of your LT after tax investments.

So you look at the tax lots and spend the the shares where you have made the least gain. You might find that $70k is nearer $35k of MAGI.

Now with a $35k MAGI if you are OK with a Bronze healthcare plan then you can use a HSA and reduce your MAGI by a further $9,200.

Look at that.. My god you are POOR and your Healthcare will be virtually free.

I am paying $2:30/month for my HC next year using this method.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on November 21, 2021, 11:39:43 AM

Another option would be to do a reverse equity glidepath and keep a big chunk in cash or similar low volatility assets and at least partially live off of that while you gradually increase the amount you have in equities.  Many will point out that it is not financially "optimal" in that you are not necessarily maximizing your earnings on the entire stash, but if you have any level of anxiety about running out of money in FIRE it can provide a smoother bridge to get past those worries.  And let you manage income for things like ACA subsidies and Roth conversions.  And if the market DOES drop dramatically sometime in the next few years you can deploy significant chunks of cash strategically, if you have the guts to do so.

Also since you are beyond age 55 you should be able to tap your 401k at any time via the rule of 55 -- check with your plan administrator to see if there are restrictions on when and how, though (my sister found that they only allowed lump sum distributions prior to 59.5)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 21, 2021, 02:41:32 PM

Quote from: lhamo on November 21, 2021, 11:39:43 AM

Also since you are beyond age 55 you should be able to tap your 401k at any time via the rule of 55 -- check with your plan administrator to see if there are restrictions on when and how, though (my sister found that they only allowed lump sum distributions prior to 59.5)

I'm glad you pointed that out @lhamo Many people throw the age 55 rule about like its a given, when in fact a lot of employers are quite restrictive in how you can withdraw the money. I have 3 401k plans and every one of them required a withdrawal of the entire balance in a single year.. The tax consequences of which would have been brutal in my case.

Now I am in the "great beyond" of 59.5+ its no longer a factor... Not sure how I feel about that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: billsfan1_2000 on November 21, 2021, 02:44:26 PM

Edit:  Hanging it up as of March 1 2022!!!!  Not 2023....sorry about that!!!

And - THANKS SO MUCH for the thoughtful posts!!!!

:) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on November 21, 2021, 02:50:07 PM

Quote from: billsfan1_2000 on November 21, 2021, 02:44:26 PM

Edit:  Hanging it up as of March 1 2022!!!!  Not 2023....sorry about that!!!

And - THANKS SO MUCH for the thoughtful posts!!!!

:)

Congratulations! The end is in sight.  I take it your employer doesn’t have any retiree medical benefits for which you might qualify? I was lucky that my ex-employer let you take retiree medical at 55 years old. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 21, 2021, 03:09:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 21, 2021, 02:41:32 PM

I'm glad you pointed that out @lhamo Many people throw the age 55 rule about like its a given, when in fact a lot of employers are quite restrictive in how you can withdraw the money. I have 3 401k plans and every one of them required a withdrawal of the entire balance in a single year.. The tax consequences of which would have been brutal in my case.

Couldn't you roll it all over into an IRA, and then take out just what you want to be taxed?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 21, 2021, 03:11:14 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 21, 2021, 03:09:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 21, 2021, 02:41:32 PM

I'm glad you pointed that out @lhamo Many people throw the age 55 rule about like its a given, when in fact a lot of employers are quite restrictive in how you can withdraw the money. I have 3 401k plans and every one of them required a withdrawal of the entire balance in a single year.. The tax consequences of which would have been brutal in my case.

Couldn't you roll it all over into an IRA, and then take out just what you want to be taxed?

Yes, you can roll it over.  But then the magic age becomes 59.5 instead of the-calendar-year-in-which-you-turn-55 for penalty-free withdrawals.  That 4.5 year difference can be important in some people's cases.

The ability to do partial withdrawals can of course help tax-wise.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on November 21, 2021, 07:12:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 21, 2021, 10:59:34 AM

Even better.... @billsfan1_2000 if you spend after  (edit: after tax) investments your Federal tax bill will be $zero.. assuming you are married (i.e within the 12% tax bracket and living on long term cap gains and qualified dividends).

Secondly remember your MAGI is only the GAIN on the capital that you draw out of your LT after tax investments.

So you look at the tax lots and spend the the shares where you have made the least gain. You might find that $70k is nearer $35k of MAGI.

Now with a $35k MAGI if you are OK with a Bronze healthcare plan then you can use a HSA and reduce your MAGI by a further $9,200.

Look at that.. My god you are POOR and your Healthcare will be virtually free.

I am paying $2:30/month for my HC next year using this method.

Thank you @Exflyboy  - I found this post quite helpful.  I've done some estimated tax calculators to estimate taxes during those "bridge years" to help with my planning, and I came to realize exactly what you just said....so it is helpful to have some real-world valuation of a "online estimator" that you question whether its working or not.   And your point on health insurance is also very very helpful for people like me who are not yet ready to pull the trigger, but planning for it. 

Thanks for imparting some real-world wisdom for us wannabes!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 21, 2021, 08:25:18 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on November 21, 2021, 03:11:14 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 21, 2021, 03:09:21 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 21, 2021, 02:41:32 PM

I'm glad you pointed that out @lhamo Many people throw the age 55 rule about like its a given, when in fact a lot of employers are quite restrictive in how you can withdraw the money. I have 3 401k plans and every one of them required a withdrawal of the entire balance in a single year.. The tax consequences of which would have been brutal in my case.

Couldn't you roll it all over into an IRA, and then take out just what you want to be taxed?

Yes, you can roll it over.  But then the magic age becomes 59.5 instead of the-calendar-year-in-which-you-turn-55 for penalty-free withdrawals.  That 4.5 year difference can be important in some people's cases.

The ability to do partial withdrawals can of course help tax-wise.

https://www.schwab.com/ira/understand-iras/withdrawals/59-and-under might be useful, it lists a number of penalty-free ways to pull funds out of an IRA before 59.5.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 21, 2021, 08:35:48 PM

You're welcome @arcturus Yeah I remember going through this and until you actually get there its hard to understand how HC can be even remotely affordable with the wonderful (thank god its not Socialism!) system we have!

Now of course with a Bronze plan its great until something goes wrong then you're on the hook for $8500 (even more if they get away with not covering one of your bills).. This happened to me when I broke my wrist.

But... at least you won't go bankrupt and if nothing bad happens (which hasn't for us in the 6 out of 7 years we have been on the ACA) then the premium payment can be negligible.

No Federal taxes and almost free HC.. Being rich is wonderful..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 25, 2021, 07:26:50 AM

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.  I hope your holidays are filled with joy and love.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on November 25, 2021, 09:05:03 PM

My husband is pulling the plug at the end of this year and I ordered up some tasty Obamacare for us starting in January 2022.

I put together a spreadsheet where I estimated what our income would be from dividends and distributions from our taxable account and then added in various Roth conversion amounts. I then priced out ACA plans at different MAGI amounts to get a feel for what it would cost.

In your case I would look up the cost basis of any taxable investments you plan on living off of first. Like others have said above, it is the gains, not the total spending that matters for MAGI calculations. Our plan is to live off of our taxable bonds initially so our gains are essentially zero, meaning we can use up all of that space for Roth conversions instead.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 25, 2021, 10:11:22 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 25, 2021, 07:26:50 AM

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.  I hope your holidays are filled with joy and love.

Well the Lions lost so it’s a normal thanksgiving

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 26, 2021, 02:51:26 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on November 25, 2021, 09:05:03 PM

In your case I would look up the cost basis of any taxable investments you plan on living off of first. Like others have said above, it is the gains, not the total spending that matters for MAGI calculations. Our plan is to live off of our taxable bonds initially so our gains are essentially zero, meaning we can use up all of that space for Roth conversions instead.

This is exactly what I was doing yesterday! We have a lot of money in taxable accounts and I was looking at our Fidelity account to see if the cost basis was recorded correctly for our index fund investments. I was not surprised to find that they don't have the cost basis for really old trades. We have been doing buy-and-hold for almost thirty years and thankfully I have been a bit of a packrat, I have somehow kept almost all of the trade statements since the mid 1990s :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 26, 2021, 03:12:43 AM

Incidentally, when I looked, I noticed that there was one value recoded for "cost basis per share" from mid 1990s until 2010 and another value from 2010 until today. Apparently brokerages are under no obligation to accurately keep track of cost basis per share for individual lots so it's really up to you to have accurate numbers.

From 2001 until 2018, I used a specialized brokerage called ShareBuilder (much missed) that allowed me to buy buy a fixed dollar amount of any shares I wanted on a weekly basis. For many years, we bought $100 worth of the Dow Jones Spider ETF (symbol DIA). I had all of those shares transferred to Fidelity when they shut down ShareBuilder. Somehow the cost basis of those shares got transferred properly.

I bought my first $100 of DIA on ShareBuilder on October 10 2001 - soon after the markets reopened after 9/11. My way of asserting that we would eventually recover....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on November 26, 2021, 05:35:38 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on November 25, 2021, 09:05:03 PM

My husband is pulling the plug at the end of this year and I ordered up some tasty Obamacare for us starting in January 2022.

I put together a spreadsheet where I estimated what our income would be from dividends and distributions from our taxable account and then added in various Roth conversion amounts. I then priced out ACA plans at different MAGI amounts to get a feel for what it would cost.

In your case I would look up the cost basis of any taxable investments you plan on living off of first. Like others have said above, it is the gains, not the total spending that matters for MAGI calculations. Our plan is to live off of our taxable bonds initially so our gains are essentially zero, meaning we can use up all of that space for Roth conversions instead.

Thanks @ysette9.   Still a few years out for me, but when I look at one of my taxable accounts (which has about 2/3 of my total taxable investments), across all investments, I have about 34% of the total in unrealized capital gains.  Assuming 10% annual growth (seems a bit high at present), in about 4 years I'd be at about 100%, meaning that for every $2 I withdraw, I would have $1 in capital gains.  Of course, I would try to manage this by looking at individual lots, etc., but for a broad planning assumption, it is probably useful.  (???) 

Even assuming this, its not a bad scenario.  Assuming $80K per year in withdrawals, it still means only $40K is taxable and at the long term capital gains rate.  When I go to kff.org and use that planning assumption, it suggests I could get silver plan coverage for about $228 per month.  Not bad.  Oh, and per an earlier note, I could use HSA dollars to pay for those premiums tax free.  Curious as to whether anyone else has used this estimator and whether its accurate. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 26, 2021, 09:04:34 AM

Quote from: arcturus on November 26, 2021, 05:35:38 AM

Oh, and per an earlier note, I could use HSA dollars to pay for those premiums tax free.

Probably not.  Using HSA distributions to pay ACA premiums is typically not allowed (except for some corner cases).

Cite:  IRS Pub 969, Insurance premiums:  https://www.irs.gov/publications/p969#en_US_2020_publink1000204086

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on November 26, 2021, 03:34:51 PM

Quote from: arcturus on November 26, 2021, 05:35:38 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on November 25, 2021, 09:05:03 PM

My husband is pulling the plug at the end of this year and I ordered up some tasty Obamacare for us starting in January 2022.

I put together a spreadsheet where I estimated what our income would be from dividends and distributions from our taxable account and then added in various Roth conversion amounts. I then priced out ACA plans at different MAGI amounts to get a feel for what it would cost.

In your case I would look up the cost basis of any taxable investments you plan on living off of first. Like others have said above, it is the gains, not the total spending that matters for MAGI calculations. Our plan is to live off of our taxable bonds initially so our gains are essentially zero, meaning we can use up all of that space for Roth conversions instead.

Thanks @ysette9.   Still a few years out for me, but when I look at one of my taxable accounts (which has about 2/3 of my total taxable investments), across all investments, I have about 34% of the total in unrealized capital gains.  Assuming 10% annual growth (seems a bit high at present), in about 4 years I'd be at about 100%, meaning that for every $2 I withdraw, I would have $1 in capital gains.  Of course, I would try to manage this by looking at individual lots, etc., but for a broad planning assumption, it is probably useful.  (???) 

Even assuming this, its not a bad scenario.  Assuming $80K per year in withdrawals, it still means only $40K is taxable and at the long term capital gains rate.  When I go to kff.org and use that planning assumption, it suggests I could get silver plan coverage for about $228 per month.  Not bad.  Oh, and per an earlier note, I could use HSA dollars to pay for those premiums tax free.  Curious as to whether anyone else has used this estimator and whether its accurate.

From everything I have read it is the most widely cited estimator for cost and seems to be accurate. For my own purposes it was slightly off from the WA exchange website but we are talking about $40 kind of differences.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on November 26, 2021, 03:36:37 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on November 26, 2021, 09:04:34 AM

Quote from: arcturus on November 26, 2021, 05:35:38 AM

Oh, and per an earlier note, I could use HSA dollars to pay for those premiums tax free.

Probably not.  Using HSA distributions to pay ACA premiums is typically not allowed (except for some corner cases).

Cite:  IRS Pub 969, Insurance premiums:  https://www.irs.gov/publications/p969#en_US_2020_publink1000204086

Oh, ok interesting.....thanks for that correction @secondcor521

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 27, 2021, 03:36:06 AM

Big hit yesterday so put a little extra cash I had to work. Kinda hard to complain when markets are so high and even though fire'd gives as I said and opportunity to do a little buying. I am just surprise and perhaps it was just a reason to do some selling that it was as much as I was even though in the big picture it was small. These variants though imo are going to keep popping up and its the new world we live in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on November 27, 2021, 04:22:05 AM

Gosh, the market hasn't been this low since........*gasp*...........October 28th.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 27, 2021, 06:23:08 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on November 27, 2021, 04:22:05 AM

Gosh, the market hasn't been this low since........*gasp*...........October 28th.

Hahaha, I love that you get it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: goodmoneygoodlife on November 27, 2021, 07:24:28 AM

There's a guy by the name of SIR_JACK_ALOT formerly on WallStreetBets (banned now) that did a cannonball run, racing from like 40K to 10 million.

I think he multiplied his money quite a bit within 21 months and gave up finally when he reached 8 million.

He did this gambling run on his 401K account so he didn't have to pay taxes lol.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 27, 2021, 12:22:29 PM

Quote from: goodmoneygoodlife on November 27, 2021, 07:24:28 AM

There's a guy by the name of SIR_JACK_ALOT formerly on WallStreetBets (banned now) that did a cannonball run, racing from like 40K to 10 million.

I think he multiplied his money quite a bit within 21 months and gave up finally when he reached 8 million.

He did this gambling run on his 401K account so he didn't have to pay taxes lol.

Yet. Still, net of taxes, that's a lot to play with. I wonder if he'll pick up his chips or keep gambling.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 27, 2021, 12:35:50 PM

Quote from: goodmoneygoodlife on November 27, 2021, 07:24:28 AM

There's a guy by the name of SIR_JACK_ALOT formerly on WallStreetBets (banned now) that did a cannonball run, racing from like 40K to 10 million.

With a handle like that, I have to ask "How do we know this person really did this and isn't living in their parent's basement jacking off a lot about fooling folks on WallStreetBets?"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 27, 2021, 05:24:30 PM

Quote from: Dicey on November 27, 2021, 06:23:08 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on November 27, 2021, 04:22:05 AM

Gosh, the market hasn't been this low since........*gasp*...........October 28th.

Hahaha, I love that you get it.

I have some ideas of where I can do some tax loss harvesting, BUT the market needs to tank a ton more before it’d be worth the effort.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 28, 2021, 08:44:07 AM

So most of our money is with Fidelity. And of course since we are circling the "beyond" number in this thread on just investment assets we qualify for Fidelity's private client group which includes free advisory services. I've been using the same guy for several years now and I like him very much and he truly gets my love of index funds. Anyway, I met with him recently with a few tax questions. Which was helpful. I also asked some other questions on some funds and asset allocation and while he answered them he also said "it doesn't really matter". So I asked him to clarify. And he said to me "you've hit the point at which none of it really matters, nothing you do, or don't do to your portfolio, or what the market does or doesn't do will have any real, material, long term effect on your portfolio. Your only concern should be tax and draw down strategies."
This was really shocking to me. I've been thinking on it for awhile. I've done lots of CFIRESIM modeling, and I guess he's right. Do any of you feel this way? Seems like an odd question to ask on a finance forum but is there a point at which your nest egg is so big that no change in asset allocation or large market drop can really make a difference? Or that the choice between drawing 3% or 4% even matter anymore?
It has changed the way I look at market drops.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on November 28, 2021, 08:52:26 AM

Intellectually, I know this is true, but I was still sad when Megacorp opened a bit down when I had a market order to sell RSUs. Did the math and the difference was < $2k, and we get the tax deduction for a capital loss. Not a material difference at all, and we confirmed with each other this is why we have rules (set up the sell order as soon as you realize it is available...) rather than guessing.

And adjusting AA when we do our snapshot next week will probably not affect much of anything. In this case, we are less sad about the market going down: maybe we won't have to rebalance....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on November 28, 2021, 09:00:16 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 28, 2021, 08:44:07 AM

So most of our money is with Fidelity. And of course since we are circling the "beyond" number in this thread on just investment assets we qualify for Fidelity's private client group which includes free advisory services. I've been using the same guy for several years now and I like him very much and he truly gets my love of index funds. Anyway, I met with him recently with a few tax questions. Which was helpful. I also asked some other questions on some funds and asset allocation and while he answered them he also said "it doesn't really matter". So I asked him to clarify. And he said to me "you've hit the point at which none of it really matters, nothing you do, or don't do to your portfolio, or what the market does or doesn't do will have any real, material, long term effect on your portfolio. Your only concern should be tax and draw down strategies."
This was really shocking to me. I've been thinking on it for awhile. I've done lots of CFIRESIM modeling, and I guess he's right. Do any of you feel this way? Seems like an odd question to ask on a finance forum but is there a point at which your nest egg is so big that no change in asset allocation or large market drop can really make a difference? Or that the choice between drawing 3% or 4% even matter anymore?
It has changed the way I look at market drops.

I am kind of at this point, but won't truly cross it until I sell current house and downsize to (hopefully) my last house.  I have plenty of assets at this point and enough cash to live off of until I can more easily tap traditional retirement assets penalty free (could do that now with a 72t withdrawal but not ready to commit to that).  But I won't feel truly unburdened by financial decisions until I have that housing piece locked in.  I mean, I know I would be fine -- if need be I can buy a condo for a reasonable price.  But I have specific things I would prefer in a house and the market here is so crazy that I can't really say with certainty what that is going to look like in 2-3 years.  Thankfully current house should continue to appreciate, but it might not appreciate at the same rate that the kind of property I am looking for will.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 28, 2021, 09:02:38 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 28, 2021, 08:44:07 AM

So most of our money is with Fidelity. And of course since we are circling the "beyond" number in this thread on just investment assets we qualify for Fidelity's private client group which includes free advisory services. I've been using the same guy for several years now and I like him very much and he truly gets my love of index funds. Anyway, I met with him recently with a few tax questions. Which was helpful. I also asked some other questions on some funds and asset allocation and while he answered them he also said "it doesn't really matter". So I asked him to clarify. And he said to me "you've hit the point at which none of it really matters, nothing you do, or don't do to your portfolio, or what the market does or doesn't do will have any real, material, long term effect on your portfolio. Your only concern should be tax and draw down strategies."
This was really shocking to me. I've been thinking on it for awhile. I've done lots of CFIRESIM modeling, and I guess he's right. Do any of you feel this way? Seems like an odd question to ask on a finance forum but is there a point at which your nest egg is so big that no change in asset allocation or large market drop can really make a difference? Or that the choice between drawing 3% or 4% even matter anymore?
It has changed the way I look at market drops.

I have retirement money with Fidelity.  I've been retired for a year and a half now and haven't had to touch it yet.  The Fidelity guy told me about the same thing.  The numbers seem to bear this out. 

The Fidelity guy told me about two guys he meets with who he helps plan their retirement.  One guy has far less than a million and drives a Mercedes Benz.  The other guy has 5 million and drives a beat up old pickup truck.  I guess he was trying to tell me of the values of frugality.  He said the first guy is going to have problems.

I think you are set as long as you don't pi** it all away.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 28, 2021, 11:40:39 AM

In related insanity, I ran the numbers on all of our properties a few weeks, maybe a month ago. Just for fun, I ran 'em again today. The combined and averaged estimates are up $134k! In a freaking month! DH and his brother have also decided to try to close out MIL's estate by the end of the year. There will most likely be payouts with two commas. WTF? I never knew a huge infusion of cash would feel so stressful.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 28, 2021, 12:34:04 PM

Quote from: Dicey on November 28, 2021, 11:40:39 AM

In related insanity, I ran the numbers on all of our properties a few weeks, maybe a month ago. Just for fun, I ran 'em again today. The combined and averaged estimates are up $134k! In a freaking month! DH and his brother have also decided to try to close out MIL's estate by the end of the year. There will most likely be payouts with two commas. WTF? I never knew a huge infusion of cash would feel so stressful.

People just have no idea what the rich have to go through.. Just awful..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on November 28, 2021, 01:01:51 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 28, 2021, 08:44:07 AM

So most of our money is with Fidelity. And of course since we are circling the "beyond" number in this thread on just investment assets we qualify for Fidelity's private client group which includes free advisory services. I've been using the same guy for several years now and I like him very much and he truly gets my love of index funds. Anyway, I met with him recently with a few tax questions. Which was helpful. I also asked some other questions on some funds and asset allocation and while he answered them he also said "it doesn't really matter". So I asked him to clarify. And he said to me "you've hit the point at which none of it really matters, nothing you do, or don't do to your portfolio, or what the market does or doesn't do will have any real, material, long term effect on your portfolio. Your only concern should be tax and draw down strategies."
This was really shocking to me. I've been thinking on it for awhile. I've done lots of CFIRESIM modeling, and I guess he's right. Do any of you feel this way? Seems like an odd question to ask on a finance forum but is there a point at which your nest egg is so big that no change in asset allocation or large market drop can really make a difference? Or that the choice between drawing 3% or 4% even matter anymore?
It has changed the way I look at market drops.

We are not quite at "Beyond" territory on liquid investments but our pensions and rent alone would give us an income of 1.5X annual spend, so it really doesn't matter to us what the market does.

Now KNOWING and BELIEVING are two very different things and I still wrestle with large purchases because they are "nice" and I "want" them. Even though intellectually it doesn't matter one bit whether I bought a nice new SUV or not I.e don't buy it and maybe I die with an extra $400k... Nice, but if our NW is close to $12M on my deathbed then I missed out on the pleasure of driving a nice new SUV for no reason at all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 28, 2021, 01:29:50 PM

For a couple of years I’ve been focused on analyzing how best to access all our money in the most tax efficient way. I think it’s best actually if we start 72ts soon and quit corporate USA and work some sort of coast job, if any. However, i haven’t pushed it hard yet with the financial advisor. He uses extremely conservative assumptions and still insists we need to work another 7 years (age 55) and grow our assets to 5m (he assumes 6.5 gross return and 3 percent inflation and really pads expenses). I constantly tell him if we can’t 3.1 million work now… then he talks about leaving legacy for family and charities. Or he tries to scare us with a scary LTC scenario. I’m like I get it, you want to make fees off our money as long as possible, but I don’t want to be buried in a gold coffin.

My mom has given me perspective. She lives off social security of $1300 a month and supplements it with a small inheritance now worth 20k. She has to pay $715 a month in rent but she gets help from us kids, as buy her necessities here and there. It’s definitely the simple life, she just sits in her apartment most days but she manages.

So if somehow my spouse and I piss away 3.1 million I assume we can somehow make social security work. Let’s hope that’s a very extreme scenario for us at this point. Honestly the only thing I can really think of that would cause this is some sort of health catastrophe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 28, 2021, 03:30:53 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 28, 2021, 12:34:04 PM

Quote from: Dicey on November 28, 2021, 11:40:39 AM

In related insanity, I ran the numbers on all of our properties a few weeks, maybe a month ago. Just for fun, I ran 'em again today. The combined and averaged estimates are up $134k! In a freaking month! DH and his brother have also decided to try to close out MIL's estate by the end of the year. There will most likely be payouts with two commas. WTF? I never knew a huge infusion of cash would feel so stressful.

People just have no idea what the rich have to go through.. Just awful..;)

Some quips are worth repeating.  I loved it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 28, 2021, 05:32:58 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 28, 2021, 08:44:07 AM

This was really shocking to me. I've been thinking on it for awhile. I've done lots of CFIRESIM modeling, and I guess he's right. Do any of you feel this way? Seems like an odd question to ask on a finance forum but is there a point at which your nest egg is so big that no change in asset allocation or large market drop can really make a difference? Or that the choice between drawing 3% or 4% even matter anymore?
It has changed the way I look at market drops.

Yes.  My net WR is about 75 basis points.  Which means for every basis point that the S&P500 goes up, the increase covers my lifestyle for about 5 days.  Of course many days, especially over the last year or so, the S&P500 frequently goes up by dozens and dozens of basis points, which covers me for months and months.  And of course, if the S&P goes up by more than a basis point every 5 days, which it usually does, then the excess is just accumulating.

I have an elderly relative who is in a similar spot.  He has enough money and a short enough life expectancy that he can have an AA anywhere between 100% stocks, 100% bonds, and 100% cash, and 100% probably anything else and it just doesn't matter - he'll be fine.

He and I both watch market drops, but it becomes increasingly distant / academic / disconnected.  What does it matter, if it doesn't change the cat food I buy or how often I go to McDonald's?  It just becomes numbers on a screen somewhere.  Or it can sometimes feel like a burden / obligation / responsibility rather than a "Whee!  Freedom!" sort of thing.

If you are at this point, the other thing that does start to loom as a personal finance consideration is estate and legacy planning.  Doing things well in this arena can help those who are left behind; doing things poorly can cause issues.  There are more and more of these types of threads over at early-retirement.org, and I expect to see more and more of them pop up here as the MMM population gets older and people get into the "Beyond!" realm of things and they become aware of this aspect of money.

ETA:  To clarify, I buy cat food for the cat.  I eat human food.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 28, 2021, 06:10:27 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 28, 2021, 01:01:51 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 28, 2021, 08:44:07 AM

So most of our money is with Fidelity. And of course since we are circling the "beyond" number in this thread on just investment assets we qualify for Fidelity's private client group which includes free advisory services. I've been using the same guy for several years now and I like him very much and he truly gets my love of index funds. Anyway, I met with him recently with a few tax questions. Which was helpful. I also asked some other questions on some funds and asset allocation and while he answered them he also said "it doesn't really matter". So I asked him to clarify. And he said to me "you've hit the point at which none of it really matters, nothing you do, or don't do to your portfolio, or what the market does or doesn't do will have any real, material, long term effect on your portfolio. Your only concern should be tax and draw down strategies."
This was really shocking to me. I've been thinking on it for awhile. I've done lots of CFIRESIM modeling, and I guess he's right. Do any of you feel this way? Seems like an odd question to ask on a finance forum but is there a point at which your nest egg is so big that no change in asset allocation or large market drop can really make a difference? Or that the choice between drawing 3% or 4% even matter anymore?
It has changed the way I look at market drops.

Now KNOWING and BELIEVING are two very different things and I still wrestle with large purchases because they are "nice" and I "want" them. Even though intellectually it doesn't matter one bit whether I bought a nice new SUV or not I.e don't buy it and maybe I die with an extra $400k... Nice, but if our NW is close to $12M on my deathbed then I missed out on the pleasure of driving a nice new SUV for no reason at all.

Me too.
We still have young kids so that does change things a little. DH hasn't quit his job yet because we are tied to a school schedule anyway and it provides good insurance so might as well (but I keep telling him that when he starts hating getting out of bed and going to work, we need to reevaluate). I'm driving a 9 year old Honda and while I'd like to replace it, we'll have another driver in a couple years and he might as well learn on my car. So the practical stands in the way of luxury at this point. But I still analyze every. single. purchase. And I don't think of us as wealthy. (That was never the intention. We were just careful and wanted to have the freedom not to work, or at least not to worry about layoffs, and now here we are.)
I'm learning. This Fidelity conversation was eye opening for sure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 28, 2021, 09:25:35 PM

As someone who just got a chewy shipment, cat food is too expensive for humans, thank goodness he’s only 11 pounds.

On my NW, like Exflyboy, I’ll have a pension.  Which will cover all my needs, so my NW is really just for fluff.  I was running my let’s “break” my plan the other day.  I will truly will have to work at it to die with “nothing”.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 29, 2021, 03:52:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 27, 2021, 12:35:50 PM

Quote from: goodmoneygoodlife on November 27, 2021, 07:24:28 AM

There's a guy by the name of SIR_JACK_ALOT formerly on WallStreetBets (banned now) that did a cannonball run, racing from like 40K to 10 million.

With a handle like that, I have to ask "How do we know this person really did this and isn't living in their parent's basement jacking off a lot about fooling folks on WallStreetBets?"

This! for sure. I spend time on Reddit and there is so much BS especially on the likes of Wallstreetbets where you have people saying whatever just to jack up a stock when you know they dont own a share.  U rah rah!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 29, 2021, 06:12:32 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 28, 2021, 06:10:27 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 28, 2021, 01:01:51 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 28, 2021, 08:44:07 AM

So most of our money is with Fidelity. And of course since we are circling the "beyond" number in this thread on just investment assets we qualify for Fidelity's private client group which includes free advisory services. I've been using the same guy for several years now and I like him very much and he truly gets my love of index funds. Anyway, I met with him recently with a few tax questions. Which was helpful. I also asked some other questions on some funds and asset allocation and while he answered them he also said "it doesn't really matter". So I asked him to clarify. And he said to me "you've hit the point at which none of it really matters, nothing you do, or don't do to your portfolio, or what the market does or doesn't do will have any real, material, long term effect on your portfolio. Your only concern should be tax and draw down strategies."
This was really shocking to me. I've been thinking on it for awhile. I've done lots of CFIRESIM modeling, and I guess he's right. Do any of you feel this way? Seems like an odd question to ask on a finance forum but is there a point at which your nest egg is so big that no change in asset allocation or large market drop can really make a difference? Or that the choice between drawing 3% or 4% even matter anymore?
It has changed the way I look at market drops.

Now KNOWING and BELIEVING are two very different things and I still wrestle with large purchases because they are "nice" and I "want" them. Even though intellectually it doesn't matter one bit whether I bought a nice new SUV or not I.e don't buy it and maybe I die with an extra $400k... Nice, but if our NW is close to $12M on my deathbed then I missed out on the pleasure of driving a nice new SUV for no reason at all.

Me too.
We still have young kids so that does change things a little. DH hasn't quit his job yet because we are tied to a school schedule anyway and it provides good insurance so might as well (but I keep telling him that when he starts hating getting out of bed and going to work, we need to reevaluate). I'm driving a 9 year old Honda and while I'd like to replace it, we'll have another driver in a couple years and he might as well learn on my car. So the practical stands in the way of luxury at this point. But I still analyze every. single. purchase. And I don't think of us as wealthy. (That was never the intention. We were just careful and wanted to have the freedom not to work, or at least not to worry about layoffs, and now here we are.)
I'm learning. This Fidelity conversation was eye opening for sure.

We never intended to accumulate as much as we did either. Our attitude towards spending has not changed a lot over the years. I bought a new car earlier this year, a Honda CR-V. Even with the encouragement of my wife to spend as much as I wanted, I just could not see the point in spending any more money on a luxury make. This car has pretty much all the luxury I could think of.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 29, 2021, 07:01:38 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 28, 2021, 06:10:27 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 28, 2021, 01:01:51 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 28, 2021, 08:44:07 AM

So most of our money is with Fidelity. And of course since we are circling the "beyond" number in this thread on just investment assets we qualify for Fidelity's private client group which includes free advisory services. I've been using the same guy for several years now and I like him very much and he truly gets my love of index funds. Anyway, I met with him recently with a few tax questions. Which was helpful. I also asked some other questions on some funds and asset allocation and while he answered them he also said "it doesn't really matter". So I asked him to clarify. And he said to me "you've hit the point at which none of it really matters, nothing you do, or don't do to your portfolio, or what the market does or doesn't do will have any real, material, long term effect on your portfolio. Your only concern should be tax and draw down strategies."
This was really shocking to me. I've been thinking on it for awhile. I've done lots of CFIRESIM modeling, and I guess he's right. Do any of you feel this way? Seems like an odd question to ask on a finance forum but is there a point at which your nest egg is so big that no change in asset allocation or large market drop can really make a difference? Or that the choice between drawing 3% or 4% even matter anymore?
It has changed the way I look at market drops.

Now KNOWING and BELIEVING are two very different things and I still wrestle with large purchases because they are "nice" and I "want" them. Even though intellectually it doesn't matter one bit whether I bought a nice new SUV or not I.e don't buy it and maybe I die with an extra $400k... Nice, but if our NW is close to $12M on my deathbed then I missed out on the pleasure of driving a nice new SUV for no reason at all.

Me too.
We still have young kids so that does change things a little. DH hasn't quit his job yet because we are tied to a school schedule anyway and it provides good insurance so might as well (but I keep telling him that when he starts hating getting out of bed and going to work, we need to reevaluate). I'm driving a 9 year old Honda and while I'd like to replace it, we'll have another driver in a couple years and he might as well learn on my car. So the practical stands in the way of luxury at this point. But I still analyze every. single. purchase. And I don't think of us as wealthy. (That was never the intention. We were just careful and wanted to have the freedom not to work, or at least not to worry about layoffs, and now here we are.)
I'm learning. This Fidelity conversation was eye opening for sure.

I suppose I'm an outlier in this group.  I look at swings in the market as an indicator toward how unimportant saving $100 here and there is.  Things that I can control, like major purchases, taxes (to some extent), etc. are where I focus most of my financial mental energy, so asset allocation is still on my radar.  Not that I optimize in terms of capturing all of the gains of this latest leg of the bull market, going conservative with $400k in my 401k from 100% equities probably 'cost me' $40k (opportunity cost), but I like the idea of being able to cut back on risk a bit more while the Fed starts tapering.  We've won the game by all reasonable measures, so I play a little more defense these days.  Nothing says that there won't be another 50% decline in my lifetime, which is one of the few significant financial events that would get us back to having to pay closer attention to budgeting. 

So when it came to replacing cars, we upgraded my 2007 Mini Cooper and bought newer so that all of our cars have backup cameras.  Not that we bought outrageous vehicles (a Honda Fit ~$18k new in 2015, Toyota Corolla ~27k new, etc.), but the safety features and reliability had enough value to justify.  I plan to give the Corolla to my son when he leaves for college.  We've also put more money in to upgrading our home since we plan to be there 5 - 10 more years at least... 

TL;DR - my attitude toward spending has changed more than my attitude toward having asset allocation fit my risk tolerance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 29, 2021, 07:28:56 AM

Our net worth has been climbing pretty steadily since retirement, even with a number of large expenses, some involuntary and others voluntary luxuries.

Short of a catastrophic, lingering illness requiring expensive medicine or lodging, we'll have plenty.   Our focus is on helping others to prosper and living a good life  -- because we really can't control the medical stuff like alzheimers or dementia.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 29, 2021, 09:06:27 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 29, 2021, 07:01:38 AM

TL;DR - my attitude toward spending has changed more than my attitude toward having asset allocation fit my risk tolerance.

Well, my asset allocation is still 80% equities, 15% bonds and 5% cash. Almost exclusively in index funds. My advisors remarks were more that we've already decided what our risk level is (I like having 5% in cash) and we've already decided we're not trying to beat the market (index funds) so there isn't really anything left to do but enjoy the ride.
I'm struggling with more of the shift to spending and not over thinking it all the time. And actively trying NOT to save more. So what goes in for my husbands 401a and 403B should offset what my RMDs are on my inherited accounts etc. After years of saving a lot, this is a drastic change in mindset.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 30, 2021, 02:55:16 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 29, 2021, 07:01:38 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 28, 2021, 06:10:27 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 28, 2021, 01:01:51 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 28, 2021, 08:44:07 AM

So most of our money is with Fidelity. And of course since we are circling the "beyond" number in this thread on just investment assets we qualify for Fidelity's private client group which includes free advisory services. I've been using the same guy for several years now and I like him very much and he truly gets my love of index funds. Anyway, I met with him recently with a few tax questions. Which was helpful. I also asked some other questions on some funds and asset allocation and while he answered them he also said "it doesn't really matter". So I asked him to clarify. And he said to me "you've hit the point at which none of it really matters, nothing you do, or don't do to your portfolio, or what the market does or doesn't do will have any real, material, long term effect on your portfolio. Your only concern should be tax and draw down strategies."
This was really shocking to me. I've been thinking on it for awhile. I've done lots of CFIRESIM modeling, and I guess he's right. Do any of you feel this way? Seems like an odd question to ask on a finance forum but is there a point at which your nest egg is so big that no change in asset allocation or large market drop can really make a difference? Or that the choice between drawing 3% or 4% even matter anymore?
It has changed the way I look at market drops.

Now KNOWING and BELIEVING are two very different things and I still wrestle with large purchases because they are "nice" and I "want" them. Even though intellectually it doesn't matter one bit whether I bought a nice new SUV or not I.e don't buy it and maybe I die with an extra $400k... Nice, but if our NW is close to $12M on my deathbed then I missed out on the pleasure of driving a nice new SUV for no reason at all.

Me too.
We still have young kids so that does change things a little. DH hasn't quit his job yet because we are tied to a school schedule anyway and it provides good insurance so might as well (but I keep telling him that when he starts hating getting out of bed and going to work, we need to reevaluate). I'm driving a 9 year old Honda and while I'd like to replace it, we'll have another driver in a couple years and he might as well learn on my car. So the practical stands in the way of luxury at this point. But I still analyze every. single. purchase. And I don't think of us as wealthy. (That was never the intention. We were just careful and wanted to have the freedom not to work, or at least not to worry about layoffs, and now here we are.)
I'm learning. This Fidelity conversation was eye opening for sure.

I suppose I'm an outlier in this group.  I look at swings in the market as an indicator toward how unimportant saving $100 here and there is.  Things that I can control, like major purchases, taxes (to some extent), etc. are where I focus most of my financial mental energy, so asset allocation is still on my radar.  Not that I optimize in terms of capturing all of the gains of this latest leg of the bull market, going conservative with $400k in my 401k from 100% equities probably 'cost me' $40k (opportunity cost), but I like the idea of being able to cut back on risk a bit more while the Fed starts tapering.  We've won the game by all reasonable measures, so I play a little more defense these days.  Nothing says that there won't be another 50% decline in my lifetime, which is one of the few significant financial events that would get us back to having to pay closer attention to budgeting. 

So when it came to replacing cars, we upgraded my 2007 Mini Cooper and bought newer so that all of our cars have backup cameras.  Not that we bought outrageous vehicles (a Honda Fit ~$18k new in 2015, Toyota Corolla ~27k new, etc.), but the safety features and reliability had enough value to justify.  I plan to give the Corolla to my son when he leaves for college.  We've also put more money in to upgrading our home since we plan to be there 5 - 10 more years at least... 

TL;DR - my attitude toward spending has changed more than my attitude toward having asset allocation fit my risk tolerance.

I dont think your an outlier , perhaps its because based on what your saying is a lot how I perceive things. Most here as you say have won the game and while there will be hurdles along the way I as well spend more time defending it wiping me out than trying to get that extra percentage point in gains per sae. I think to for me I am at a very expensive time with buying a house 2 years ago I seemingly will be remodeling forever and will have my 3rd in college and still another to go. So I keep things well enough so if we have a huge correction I dont need to say remodel a room or buy a new car but as long as I am a certain percentage above my minimum NW amount then I continue to move forward knocking things off my list and which frankly will pay me off in the long run.

 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on November 30, 2021, 04:17:48 AM

I'm not sure when I will transition from saving to spending, but it might be as soon as next year (I hope if not then certainly the one after).  I am and always have been a natural saver.  I look at my kids and even my DS (age 4) who I initially thought was definitely a spender has started to put things to one side for later, and DD finds it almost impossible NOT to save Halloween chocolate etc. (and more generally to halt the passing of time in any way possible - preserving things, taking care of end-of-season bugs and fallen leaves, drawing things, taking pictures/video to remember) so maybe it's just inbuilt.

One thing I was wondering about, given my ridiculous stash, was to mentally "pay" myself a fairly aggressive WR (e.g. 3.5% or 4%), and then anything I don't save from that I can still consider "savings".

Is this nuts to think I can "fool myself" this way?  I'm a bit worried about the transition you are talking about @BeanCounter.  I have very simple projection models that have an annual spending rate - if I can put one in that seems safe and then not spend all of it, I wonder if I will somehow feel as if I'm still saving even as I draw down?  Especially given that volatility in the market is likely to make the path of my stash going forward look anything like a gentle decline path anyway...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 30, 2021, 07:15:35 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 30, 2021, 02:55:16 AM

I dont think your an outlier , perhaps its because based on what your saying is a lot how I perceive things. Most here as you say have won the game and while there will be hurdles along the way I as well spend more time defending it wiping me out than trying to get that extra percentage point in gains per sae. I think to for me I am at a very expensive time with buying a house 2 years ago I seemingly will be remodeling forever and will have my 3rd in college and still another to go. So I keep things well enough so if we have a huge correction I dont need to say remodel a room or buy a new car but as long as I am a certain percentage above my minimum NW amount then I continue to move forward knocking things off my list and which frankly will pay me off in the long run.

When I see folks wrestling with buying new cars, I feel like an outlier.  I'm not in the market for anything ridiculous, but I have no problem going online, picking a car and researching a reasonable price, then going to the dealership and getting it done.  I've bought 3 brand new cars in the last 5 years and my net worth continued to go up by leaps and bounds.  I take care of our cars, so it's nice to not be buying used and worrying about the previous owner.  I imagine the cars will last 10+ years, so the cost per year isn't really all that bad, and we've prepared for these purchases by having plenty of cash on hand.  It's quite liberating for me to have that obligatory chat with the finance guys then write the one check and drive away.  We've worked and planned to get to this level of financial freedom, might as well put that super-power to use!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Watchmaker on November 30, 2021, 09:47:43 AM

Hello all, I've just managed to squeak into this thread this month (2.01 MM). I'm struggling a bit with my plan at this point, but continuing to work for now.

Quote from: LightTripper on November 30, 2021, 04:17:48 AM

One thing I was wondering about, given my ridiculous stash, was to mentally "pay" myself a fairly aggressive WR (e.g. 3.5% or 4%), and then anything I don't save from that I can still consider "savings".

I've played with a similar mental approach. It is common advice to save 15% of your income if you want to pay for a normal retirement, so I figure if my "retirement income" exceeds my spending by 15%, I have no more reason to worry about the future than if I was still working a typical job. There are a lot of ways you could calculate retirement income, but one way would be to to pick a WR you would be comfortable with (your 3.5% or 4%). Another way would be to see how big an annuity you could buy with your NW. It's all just mental gymnastics, but if it makes you feel better it has done its job.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 30, 2021, 11:10:52 AM

Quote from: Watchmaker on November 30, 2021, 09:47:43 AM

Hello all, I've just managed to squeak into this thread this month (2.01 MM). I'm struggling a bit with my plan at this point, but continuing to work for now.

Quote from: LightTripper on November 30, 2021, 04:17:48 AM

One thing I was wondering about, given my ridiculous stash, was to mentally "pay" myself a fairly aggressive WR (e.g. 3.5% or 4%), and then anything I don't save from that I can still consider "savings".

I've played with a similar mental approach. It is common advice to save 15% of your income if you want to pay for a normal retirement, so I figure if my "retirement income" exceeds my spending by 15%, I have no more reason to worry about the future than if I was still working a typical job. There are a lot of ways you could calculate retirement income, but one way would be to to pick a WR you would be comfortable with (your 3.5% or 4%). Another way would be to see how big an annuity you could buy with your NW. It's all just mental gymnastics, but if it makes you feel better it has done its job.

Congratulations on your success.

Lots of folks on this site have warned me away from annuities.  I guess someone is investing your money to make that money and you could be the one investing that money yourself.  The middle man (or woman) is eliminated if you invest the money yourself.  IF you figure on living for a while yet, a standard annuity will take the inflation hit.

Of course, they are always inventing new types of investment vehicles and maybe there is a good one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Watchmaker on November 30, 2021, 11:41:16 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 30, 2021, 11:10:52 AM

Congratulations on your success.

Lots of folks on this site have warned me away from annuities.  I guess someone is investing your money to make that money and you could be the one investing that money yourself.  The middle man (or woman) is eliminated if you invest the money yourself.  IF you figure on living for a while yet, a standard annuity will take the inflation hit.

Of course, they are always inventing new types of investment vehicles and maybe there is a good one.

To be clear: I'm not recommending actually purchasing an annuity, but just saying that getting a quote on an SPIA (from immediateannuities.com, for example) is one way of estimating a safe withdrawal rate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on November 30, 2021, 11:51:13 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 30, 2021, 11:10:52 AM

Quote from: Watchmaker on November 30, 2021, 09:47:43 AM

Hello all, I've just managed to squeak into this thread this month (2.01 MM). I'm struggling a bit with my plan at this point, but continuing to work for now.

Quote from: LightTripper on November 30, 2021, 04:17:48 AM

One thing I was wondering about, given my ridiculous stash, was to mentally "pay" myself a fairly aggressive WR (e.g. 3.5% or 4%), and then anything I don't save from that I can still consider "savings".

I've played with a similar mental approach. It is common advice to save 15% of your income if you want to pay for a normal retirement, so I figure if my "retirement income" exceeds my spending by 15%, I have no more reason to worry about the future than if I was still working a typical job. There are a lot of ways you could calculate retirement income, but one way would be to to pick a WR you would be comfortable with (your 3.5% or 4%). Another way would be to see how big an annuity you could buy with your NW. It's all just mental gymnastics, but if it makes you feel better it has done its job.

Congratulations on your success.

Lots of folks on this site have warned me away from annuities. I guess someone is investing your money to make that money and you could be the one investing that money yourself.  The middle man (or woman) is eliminated if you invest the money yourself.  IF you figure on living for a while yet, a standard annuity will take the inflation hit.

Of course, they are always inventing new types of investment vehicles and maybe there is a good one.

I am not really foe or against annuities and think they are more situational, but bolded part that most use tonargue against is technically true but practically false.   As an individual you take on the all the risks of depletion (bad AA, SORR, dumb decisions) and get all of the upside potential, most of usbthink that is a fair trade. 

But annuities aren't really subject to any of those risks so you don't give the upside potential.  Sure there is the fees that the middleman takes but the real difference is that the insurance companies spread these risks over very broad pools and durations.  So they will take it on the chin when any one beneficiary was signed at a bad SORR time or lives really long but those are offset by those that die early or have policies issued back in 2011.   

So it's not really fair or accurate to say that annuities are bad, or worse than doing it yourself, they are simply a risk mitigation tool for those that need/desire certainty and predictability of cash flows throughout some defined duration. 

All that said, the fees and discount rates are where they can really screw you and make DIY more favorable. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on November 30, 2021, 01:21:24 PM

Also... can't annuities default? They're not FDIC insured or anything.

If you have your own investments, they can only "default" if everything goes to zero, literally.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 30, 2021, 01:34:49 PM

Quote from: dividendman on November 30, 2021, 01:21:24 PM

Also... can't annuities default? They're not FDIC insured or anything.

If you have your own investments, they can only "default" if everything goes to zero, literally.

They're backed by the financial strength of the insurance company.  The insurance companies certainly try to avoid not paying their annuity contracts, so they'll pay out until they face bankruptcy.  It's not common but there have been insurance companies that have gone bankrupt - my family had some life insurance policies from one that went bankrupt about 30 years ago.

Insurance companies tend to invest in fairly boring and conservative things, and they tend to diversify, so usually there's not that much risk unless the company just gets a wild hair and decides to invest imprudently, or if there is substantially poor mismanagement in general.

If that does happen, there can be state insurance funds that insurance companies pay into as sort of a re-insurance type of arrangement.  There can also be other insurance companies that will buy an insolvent company and take over the contracts - I believe that is what happened in my family's case.

Here's a Forbes article that talks about this stuff:  https://www.forbes.com/advisor/life-insurance/company-out-of-business/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 30, 2021, 03:08:36 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on November 30, 2021, 01:34:49 PM

Quote from: dividendman on November 30, 2021, 01:21:24 PM

If that does happen, there can be state insurance funds that insurance companies pay into as sort of a re-insurance type of arrangement.  There can also be other insurance companies that will buy an insolvent company and take over the contracts - I believe that is what happened in my family's case.

Indeed, all states have what are called guaranty associations that provide some protection similar to the FDIC. See: https://www.annuity.org/annuities/regulations/state-guaranty-associations/

I looked up all this when I parked some cash in a MYGA (multi year guaranteed annuity) a few years ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on November 30, 2021, 03:20:52 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 30, 2021, 03:08:36 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on November 30, 2021, 01:34:49 PM

Quote from: dividendman on November 30, 2021, 01:21:24 PM

If that does happen, there can be state insurance funds that insurance companies pay into as sort of a re-insurance type of arrangement.  There can also be other insurance companies that will buy an insolvent company and take over the contracts - I believe that is what happened in my family's case.

Indeed, all states have what are called guaranty associations that provide some protection similar to the FDIC. See: https://www.annuity.org/annuities/regulations/state-guaranty-associations/

I looked up all this when I parked some cash in a MYGA (multi year guaranteed annuity) a few years ago.

Was the return anywhere close to what you would have obtained from index funds?

I realize you are greatly lowering your risk and sometimes have a guaranteed return.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on November 30, 2021, 05:32:44 PM

One "off label" use of an SPIA is as a cheaper trust for adult kids who you want to leave money to, but know they'll have it completely spent in 2 months if you give each a million dollars.  Buy the SPIA or a deferred annuity and the cost to maintain is zero and you don't have to do tax returns annually.  It's one of the things we're thinking about.

Any of those Universal Live or variable anything or index something or whole life are all garbage and you really shouldn't even consider them unless you like paying an 8% commission and then 3% a year and get the S&P 500 return, but not the dividends.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on November 30, 2021, 07:05:32 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$
November 2021 - 2.89m$

Slowly getting towards the 3m mark probably not gonna make it this year, but Q1 - 2022 after retiring.

31 days to fire

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on November 30, 2021, 10:10:56 PM

Somewhere in this cohort and find it interesting that weekly swings in the market make a larger difference in SWR than years of labor.  Which only reduces the motivation to work when market whims are more important than using the correct cover sheet on the TPS reports. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 30, 2021, 11:07:47 PM

We're down $30k since October.   Meh.   And over half of that was hiring out some big jobs to tradespeople to do things to our home.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 01, 2021, 03:24:16 AM

Quote from: pecunia on November 30, 2021, 03:20:52 PM

Was the return anywhere close to what you would have obtained from index funds?

I realize you are greatly lowering your risk and sometimes have a guaranteed return.

Way less than an index fund, but that's not the purpose of the MYGA - its an alternative to leaving cash in money market funds and savings accounts. I try to maintain an overall AA of 70/30 but in our case, even the 30% in bonds/cash/safe investments has become a large amount in absolute terms so I am always on the lookout for alternatives.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 02, 2021, 02:10:13 AM

What a reversal in the markets yesterday once it was announced the first case of the new Variant was detected in the USA. Those machines really kicked in and in 15-30 minutes max a lot of wealth was wiped out. Bit surprised in that this is not the first variant so probably really more of a reasons based on Black Swan Powell's comments the other day. In any case one or two more days like that and time to put some extra cash to work. Might be another Flash Crash like in 2020 but who knows anything. All speculation at this point but an interesting day. Its nice being in a position where it might create an opportunity though vs a Panic event because there was for sure some panic selling yesterday.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on December 02, 2021, 03:45:03 AM

Quite weird given it was always clearly going to be in the US already, so hardly new news.  Not far down though given the run up to here. Will be interesting to see if the market takes a dimmer view of this as more facts emerge...

Sent from my EB2103 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 02, 2021, 05:09:19 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on December 02, 2021, 03:45:03 AM

Quite weird given it was always clearly going to be in the US already, so hardly new news.  Not far down though given the run up to here. Will be interesting to see if the market takes a dimmer view of this as more facts emerge...

Sent from my EB2103 using Tapatalk

I think whats important that the media is not sharing is that no one that has contracted the new Variant in South Africa has been hospitalized because of it. I think thats something that should be being shared. I wasnt able to copy the article but here is the jist of it and link of people have access to Twitter-

1/Dr. Coetzee, Chair of S. African Med Soc & active practitioner, caring for C19 omicron patients: “No one here in South Africa is known to have been hospitalized with the Omicron variant, nor is anyone here believed to have fallen seriously ill with it” https://dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10256373/Dr-ANGELIQUE-COETZEE-discovered-Omicron-says-reacting-threat.html

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on December 02, 2021, 05:39:27 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 02, 2021, 05:09:19 AM

I think whats important that the media is not sharing is that no one that has contracted the new Variant in South Africa has been hospitalized because of it.

Viewers, clicks and ratings......."new variant threatens to shut down the economy again and end humanity!"


SL4 ask......"Nothing to see here, move along. 🥱"

Sorry SL4, your story is DOA!  And your fired!

Haha

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 02, 2021, 05:46:56 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on December 02, 2021, 05:39:27 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 02, 2021, 05:09:19 AM

I think whats important that the media is not sharing is that no one that has contracted the new Variant in South Africa has been hospitalized because of it.

Viewers, clicks and ratings......."new variant threatens to shut down the economy again and end humanity!"


SL4 ask......"Nothing to see here, move along. 🥱"

Sorry SL4, your story is DOA!  And your fired!

Haha

haha...Guess there could be worse things!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on December 02, 2021, 06:35:20 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 02, 2021, 05:09:19 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on December 02, 2021, 03:45:03 AM

Quite weird given it was always clearly going to be in the US already, so hardly new news.  Not far down though given the run up to here. Will be interesting to see if the market takes a dimmer view of this as more facts emerge...

Sent from my EB2103 using Tapatalk

I think whats important that the media is not sharing is that no one that has contracted the new Variant in South Africa has been hospitalized because of it. I think thats something that should be being shared. I wasnt able to copy the article but here is the jist of it and link of people have access to Twitter-

1/Dr. Coetzee, Chair of S. African Med Soc & active practitioner, caring for C19 omicron patients: “No one here in South Africa is known to have been hospitalized with the Omicron variant, nor is anyone here believed to have fallen seriously ill with it” https://dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10256373/Dr-ANGELIQUE-COETZEE-discovered-Omicron-says-reacting-threat.html

Not sure what new you watch, but the phrase I used an hour ago to.uodate my husband was "more contagious, less brutal," because that is the gist of what I am seeing reported.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on December 02, 2021, 08:16:21 AM

I think I've read that it's a bit early to tell on hospitalisations, as the identified cases in SA are still new (so people may get hospitalised later in the course of the illness: it's often week 2 that people end up in hospital), and also because the SA population is much younger (but also less vaccinated, and with a lot more HIV positivity).  So basically we need to wait and see.

Anyway, will be keeping fingers and toes crossed that it turns out not to be so very different from Delta (or at least, not in a bad direction - quite happy for it to be milder obviously!)  Based on modelling I've seen, if it is more transmissible the really big numbers still won't hit us until spring, assuming we're starting from a very small base.  I suspect a lot will depend on how fast we can roll out the boosters and how good Omicron is at evading them...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 02, 2021, 08:39:17 AM

Quote from: ixtap on December 02, 2021, 06:35:20 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 02, 2021, 05:09:19 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on December 02, 2021, 03:45:03 AM

Quite weird given it was always clearly going to be in the US already, so hardly new news.  Not far down though given the run up to here. Will be interesting to see if the market takes a dimmer view of this as more facts emerge...

Sent from my EB2103 using Tapatalk

I think whats important that the media is not sharing is that no one that has contracted the new Variant in South Africa has been hospitalized because of it. I think thats something that should be being shared. I wasnt able to copy the article but here is the jist of it and link of people have access to Twitter-

1/Dr. Coetzee, Chair of S. African Med Soc & active practitioner, caring for C19 omicron patients: “No one here in South Africa is known to have been hospitalized with the Omicron variant, nor is anyone here believed to have fallen seriously ill with it” https://dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10256373/Dr-ANGELIQUE-COETZEE-discovered-Omicron-says-reacting-threat.html

Not sure what new you watch, but the phrase I used an hour ago to.uodate my husband was "more contagious, less brutal," because that is the gist of what I am seeing reported.

That shows the problem with the media. Some that make light of things and some that make everything the end of the world. My source is right there out of SA. GSK reported today this which is good news -

WION
@WIONews
GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) has said that its coronavirus drug called 'Sotrovimab' is effective against the Omicron variant

#OmicronVariant #OmicronInIndia
wionews.com
GlaxoSmithKline says Covid drug effective against Omicron variant
GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) has said that its coronavirus drug called sotrovimab is effective against the Omicron variant. The British pharmaceutical industry company had conducted a trial against key...
7:40 AM · Dec 2, 2021·TweetDeck

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 02, 2021, 09:14:53 AM

I didn't vote for Mr. Trump, but he sure was right about the fake news thing. He made me much more aware that what they tell is what they want you to hear.

Just the same, I should get the third shot.

These dips haven't lasted long.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 02, 2021, 09:51:36 AM

Quote from: pecunia on December 02, 2021, 09:14:53 AM

I didn't vote for Mr. Trump, but he sure was right about the fake news thing. He made me much more aware that what they tell is what they want you to hear.

Just the same, I should get the third shot.

These dips haven't lasted long.

I am with you on that. I looked at my card this morning I had my first shot middle of March. So 7 plus months. I just had surgery two weeks ago so need to find out if any issues with that but I want to get the booster as soon as reasonably possible. My neighbor just got Covid 2 days ago and our state hospitalizations is up 30% in the last month. Gonna be with us for awhile for sure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 02, 2021, 02:10:03 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 02, 2021, 09:14:53 AM

I didn't vote for Mr. Trump, but he sure was right about the fake news thing. He made me much more aware that what they tell is what they want you to hear.

Just the same, I should get the third shot.

These dips haven't lasted long.

I think that SOB is a pathological liar.

The media tend to tell lots of news but they give a big focus on some of it.   If you're attentive you'll find the rest of the news.

It's a major qualitative difference.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on December 02, 2021, 06:33:44 PM

Call me a dirty market timer but I did a small Roth conversion yesterday and threw 30k of spare cash into FZROX.  Love getting shares on sale!  I also snagged 10k in Ibonds in time to get the November interest payment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 03, 2021, 02:53:42 AM

Quote from: lhamo on December 02, 2021, 06:33:44 PM

Call me a dirty market timer but I did a small Roth conversion yesterday and threw 30k of spare cash into FZROX.  Love getting shares on sale!  I also snagged 10k in Ibonds in time to get the November interest payment.

As it happens, I was thinking of moving some of our cash into stocks too. But this dip is almost a rounding error in comparison with our long term capital gains.

For the past couple of days, I have been creating a spreadsheet with the actual cost basis of an S&P index fund (FXAIX) that we have been buying regularly (post-tax) for over twenty years. I have been doing this because the Fidelity website only has average values for the cost basis. At some point in the next few years, we may actually have to sell some of these shares.

Look at the prices of FXAIX 11 years ago:

2/5/2010      37.75
3/5/2010      40.41
4/5/2010      42.19
4/9/2010      42.29
5/5/2010      41.31
6/7/2010      37.30
7/6/2010      36.56
7/9/2010      38.17
8/5/2010      39.90
9/7/2010      38.79
10/1/2010      40.58
10/5/2010      41.10
11/5/2010      43.46
12/6/2010      43.46
12/17/2010  43.97

Each share is now $159. Back in 2010, we were investing $1000 per month post-tax and even that amount seemed like a huge leap of faith that the future would be better. I used to compute our net worth once every other year and get depressed at how little it had increased.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 03, 2021, 05:00:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 02, 2021, 02:10:03 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 02, 2021, 09:14:53 AM

I didn't vote for Mr. Trump, but he sure was right about the fake news thing. He made me much more aware that what they tell is what they want you to hear.

Just the same, I should get the third shot.

These dips haven't lasted long.

I think that SOB is a pathological liar.

The media tend to tell lots of news but they give a big focus on some of it.   If you're attentive you'll find the rest of the news.

It's a major qualitative difference.

I am not Trump fan but what @pecunia is simply saying in my view is exactly what your touching on. Just saying Trump made them more aware. Not sure what SOB or pathological liar has to do with what is the truth of all media outlets today as there is not one that just reports the news and sadly why should one have to parse through and try to figure out the truth or not. As a whole they should be held to a higher standard and be held responsible for what they publish. Making an agenda to make it a political thing about one President has nothing to do with it as any President in the white house feels the same way about it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 03, 2021, 08:23:25 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 03, 2021, 05:00:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 02, 2021, 02:10:03 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 02, 2021, 09:14:53 AM

I didn't vote for Mr. Trump, but he sure was right about the fake news thing. He made me much more aware that what they tell is what they want you to hear.

Just the same, I should get the third shot.

These dips haven't lasted long.

I think that SOB is a pathological liar.

The media tend to tell lots of news but they give a big focus on some of it.   If you're attentive you'll find the rest of the news.

It's a major qualitative difference.

I am not Trump fan but what @pecunia is simply saying in my view is exactly what your touching on. Just saying Trump made them more aware. Not sure what SOB or pathological liar has to do with what is the truth of all media outlets today as there is not one that just reports the news and sadly why should one have to parse through and try to figure out the truth or not. As a whole they should be held to a higher standard and be held responsible for what they publish. Making an agenda to make it a political thing about one President has nothing to do with it as any President in the white house feels the same way about it.

Topic \ News Source	News 1	News 2	Trump
A	truth	truth	LIES
B	TRUTH	truth	LIES
C	truth	TRUTH	LIES
D	trut	ruth	LIES
E	trut		LIES
F		ruth	LIES

That's how it is for actual news agencies and Trump on topics.
Most of the difference is on emphasis of the topic and how much attention is given to it.
The national TV news can only focus on a minute fraction of the news.

Now, it's important to recognize that some "news" sources aren't "news" sources at all.  They are categorized as "infotainment".

For example, most of the programming on Fox is "infotainment", not actual news sources.   Infotainment isn't held to any professional standards as to news coverage or truthfulness.  Tucker Carlson and Alex Jones are among the more prominent ones proven in court to be liars.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 03, 2021, 08:48:08 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 03, 2021, 08:23:25 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 03, 2021, 05:00:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 02, 2021, 02:10:03 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 02, 2021, 09:14:53 AM

I didn't vote for Mr. Trump, but he sure was right about the fake news thing. He made me much more aware that what they tell is what they want you to hear.

Just the same, I should get the third shot.

These dips haven't lasted long.

I think that SOB is a pathological liar.

The media tend to tell lots of news but they give a big focus on some of it.   If you're attentive you'll find the rest of the news.

It's a major qualitative difference.

I am not Trump fan but what @pecunia is simply saying in my view is exactly what your touching on. Just saying Trump made them more aware. Not sure what SOB or pathological liar has to do with what is the truth of all media outlets today as there is not one that just reports the news and sadly why should one have to parse through and try to figure out the truth or not. As a whole they should be held to a higher standard and be held responsible for what they publish. Making an agenda to make it a political thing about one President has nothing to do with it as any President in the white house feels the same way about it.

Topic \ News Source	News 1	News 2	Trump
A	truth	truth	LIES
B	TRUTH	truth	LIES
C	truth	TRUTH	LIES
D	trut	ruth	LIES
E	trut		LIES
F		ruth	LIES

That's how it is for actual news agencies and Trump on topics.
Most of the difference is on emphasis of the topic and how much attention is given to it.
The national TV news can only focus on a minute fraction of the news.

Now, it's important to recognize that some "news" sources aren't "news" sources at all.  They are categorized as "infotainment".

For example, most of the programming on Fox is "infotainment", not actual news sources.   Infotainment isn't held to any professional standards as to news coverage or truthfulness. Tucker Carlson and Alex Jones are among the more prominent ones proven in court to be liars.

Who?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LoanShark on December 03, 2021, 08:59:39 AM

Take the political commentary somewhere else. Geez.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 03, 2021, 10:23:36 AM

Quote from: LoanShark on December 03, 2021, 08:59:39 AM

Take the political commentary somewhere else. Geez.

Agreed! enough of that shit on other threads.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on December 03, 2021, 11:02:06 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 03, 2021, 10:23:36 AM

Quote from: LoanShark on December 03, 2021, 08:59:39 AM

Take the political commentary somewhere else. Geez.

Agreed! enough of that shit on other threads.

Especially since the top is ACTUALLY IN! Have you seen the markets today??!!1?!11111

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 03, 2021, 05:31:11 PM

Quote from: dividendman on December 03, 2021, 11:02:06 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 03, 2021, 10:23:36 AM

Quote from: LoanShark on December 03, 2021, 08:59:39 AM

Take the political commentary somewhere else. Geez.

Agreed! enough of that shit on other threads.

Especially since the top is ACTUALLY IN! Have you seen the markets today??!!1?!11111

No. Should I care?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 03, 2021, 06:51:04 PM

Quote from: dividendman on December 03, 2021, 11:02:06 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 03, 2021, 10:23:36 AM

Quote from: LoanShark on December 03, 2021, 08:59:39 AM

Take the political commentary somewhere else. Geez.

Agreed! enough of that shit on other threads.

Especially since the top is ACTUALLY IN! Have you seen the markets today??!!1?!11111

Should we start discussing whether to pay off the mortgage or not?  Anything else that could bring about fisticuffs??

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 03, 2021, 07:01:04 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 03, 2021, 06:51:04 PM

Should we start discussing whether to pay off the mortgage or not?  Anything else that could bring about fisticuffs??

Sure, we could discuss how the 4% "rule" isn't at all safe and needs to be a 1% rule!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 03, 2021, 07:14:09 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 03, 2021, 07:01:04 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 03, 2021, 06:51:04 PM

Should we start discussing whether to pay off the mortgage or not?  Anything else that could bring about fisticuffs??

Sure, we could discuss how the 4% "rule" isn't at all safe and needs to be a 1% rule!

Aw, heck, if you're in this club, you might already be at 1%. Therefore, not news. Ho-hum.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 03, 2021, 07:32:33 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 03, 2021, 07:14:09 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 03, 2021, 07:01:04 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 03, 2021, 06:51:04 PM

Should we start discussing whether to pay off the mortgage or not?  Anything else that could bring about fisticuffs??

Sure, we could discuss how the 4% "rule" isn't at all safe and needs to be a 1% rule!

Aw, heck, if you're in this club, you might already be at 1%. Therefore, not news. Ho-hum.

You think I'm in the 1% club instead of the 3.732537th club%??!!   

Them's fightin' words!!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 04, 2021, 01:02:27 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 03, 2021, 07:32:33 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 03, 2021, 07:14:09 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 03, 2021, 07:01:04 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 03, 2021, 06:51:04 PM

Should we start discussing whether to pay off the mortgage or not?  Anything else that could bring about fisticuffs??

Sure, we could discuss how the 4% "rule" isn't at all safe and needs to be a 1% rule!

Aw, heck, if you're in this club, you might already be at 1%. Therefore, not news. Ho-hum.

You think I'm in the 1% club instead of the 3.732537th club%??!!   

Them's fightin' words!!!

Yeah, stop waving that shiny sword at me. That was "you" plural, or as they like to say in the South, y'all, or all y'all. As in every member of this club. That's you and you and you. All of youse.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 04, 2021, 02:48:58 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 03, 2021, 06:51:04 PM

Quote from: dividendman on December 03, 2021, 11:02:06 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 03, 2021, 10:23:36 AM

Quote from: LoanShark on December 03, 2021, 08:59:39 AM

Take the political commentary somewhere else. Geez.

Agreed! enough of that shit on other threads.

Especially since the top is ACTUALLY IN! Have you seen the markets today??!!1?!11111

Should we start discussing whether to pay off the mortgage or not?  Anything else that could bring about fisticuffs??

Ok this made me laugh out loud with hot coffee in my hand...not good! haha

Market is gagging. Down back of the book math around 75k but oh well Not like I am going back to work!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 04, 2021, 11:57:12 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 04, 2021, 02:48:58 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 03, 2021, 06:51:04 PM

Quote from: dividendman on December 03, 2021, 11:02:06 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 03, 2021, 10:23:36 AM

Quote from: LoanShark on December 03, 2021, 08:59:39 AM

Take the political commentary somewhere else. Geez.

Agreed! enough of that shit on other threads.

Especially since the top is ACTUALLY IN! Have you seen the markets today??!!1?!11111

Should we start discussing whether to pay off the mortgage or not?  Anything else that could bring about fisticuffs??

Ok this made me laugh out loud with hot coffee in my hand...not good! haha

Market is gagging. Down back of the book math around 75k but oh well Not like I am going back to work!

We’ll either want to kill every stranger we’ve never met or have a good laugh, that’s the magic of the season (oh yeah, and the internet)…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 05, 2021, 03:48:17 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 04, 2021, 11:57:12 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 04, 2021, 02:48:58 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 03, 2021, 06:51:04 PM

Quote from: dividendman on December 03, 2021, 11:02:06 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 03, 2021, 10:23:36 AM

Quote from: LoanShark on December 03, 2021, 08:59:39 AM

Take the political commentary somewhere else. Geez.

Agreed! enough of that shit on other threads.

Especially since the top is ACTUALLY IN! Have you seen the markets today??!!1?!11111

Should we start discussing whether to pay off the mortgage or not?  Anything else that could bring about fisticuffs??

Ok this made me laugh out loud with hot coffee in my hand...not good! haha

Market is gagging. Down back of the book math around 75k but oh well Not like I am going back to work!

We’ll either want to kill every stranger we’ve never met or have a good laugh, that’s the magic of the season (oh yeah, and the internet)…

Well said!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 05, 2021, 11:04:41 AM

Hey what's been up gang?  Market took a slight dump.  Ho hum. 
Me and my bicycle spend last week out on the Natchez Trace.  Went with all my camping gear for 220 miles of solo cycling.  I was able to exercise off all that Thanksgiving crap.   It was out and back between Natchez Mississippi and Jackson Mississippi.   I parked my truck at Rocky Springs Campground.  I did a hotel night in Jackson and Natchez, while camping at Rocky Springs near the midpoint.  I could have just left the camping gear at the truck and rode lighter.  Instead I wanted to simulate a point to point and train with the added weight as a shakedown.  The four days of riding did teach me some things.  One, even the stuff you can strap to a bicycle is too much stuff.  Two, it's nice to have money.  In Jackson and Natchez I stayed in nicer hotels.  I still got them on Priceline for about $100 bucks a night, but there were $50 options available.  What the hell is $50 bucks to us? 
Three, I'm ready for retirement.  I enjoyed my week alone so much, I can't wait for the freedom to explore more on my bicycle and with my backpack. 
I'd been studying up on the Civil War battles prior to the trip.  The battle of Vicksburg Mississippi was laid out in this area.   Sure you can reach it all by car.  But that's too fast.  Your mind needs to take in the terrain and your muscles need to feel the hills.  Even at 10 miles per hour pedaling a loaded down bicycle it's too fast.  But, it gets you closer to the land.  I saw the fields they camped in and the streams they drank from. 
I hope to complete the Natchez Trace from Nashville back to Jackson in the Spring.  Just wanted to share a bit of the experience.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Extramedium on December 05, 2021, 11:15:41 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 05, 2021, 11:04:41 AM

Hey what's been up gang?  Market took a slight dump.  Ho hum. 
Me and my bicycle spend last week out on the Natchez Trace.  Went with all my camping gear for 220 miles of solo cycling.  I was able to exercise off all that Thanksgiving crap.   It was out and back between Natchez Mississippi and Jackson Mississippi.   I parked my truck at Rocky Springs Campground.  I did a hotel night in Jackson and Natchez, while camping at Rocky Springs near the midpoint.  I could have just left the camping gear at the truck and rode lighter.  Instead I wanted to simulate a point to point and train with the added weight as a shakedown.  The four days of riding did teach me some things.  One, even the stuff you can strap to a bicycle is too much stuff.  Two, it's nice to have money.  In Jackson and Natchez I stayed in nicer hotels.  I still got them on Priceline for about $100 bucks a night, but there were $50 options available.  What the hell is $50 bucks to us? 
Three, I'm ready for retirement.  I enjoyed my week alone so much, I can't wait for the freedom to explore more on my bicycle and with my backpack. 
I'd been studying up on the Civil War battles prior to the trip.  The battle of Vicksburg Mississippi was laid out in this area.   Sure you can reach it all by car.  But that's too fast.  Your mind needs to take in the terrain and your muscles need to feel the hills.  Even at 10 miles per hour pedaling a loaded down bicycle it's too fast.  But, it gets you closer to the land.  I saw the fields they camped in and the streams they drank from. 
I hope to complete the Natchez Trace from Nashville back to Jackson in the Spring.  Just wanted to share a bit of the experience.

Right on, Bateaux! 

Longer bike trips -solo or otherwise- are one of my own motivations for ER, too.  My big bucket list ride is the Great Divide Mountain Bike Route.  Good on you for starting to figure out the mechanics of riding with gear.  I've only done a little bit of that myself, but every year I get a little more confident with the mechanics of it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 05, 2021, 11:50:03 AM

Quote from: Extramedium on December 05, 2021, 11:15:41 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 05, 2021, 11:04:41 AM

Hey what's been up gang?  Market took a slight dump.  Ho hum. 
Me and my bicycle spend last week out on the Natchez Trace.  Went with all my camping gear for 220 miles of solo cycling.  I was able to exercise off all that Thanksgiving crap.   It was out and back between Natchez Mississippi and Jackson Mississippi.   I parked my truck at Rocky Springs Campground.  I did a hotel night in Jackson and Natchez, while camping at Rocky Springs near the midpoint.  I could have just left the camping gear at the truck and rode lighter.  Instead I wanted to simulate a point to point and train with the added weight as a shakedown.  The four days of riding did teach me some things.  One, even the stuff you can strap to a bicycle is too much stuff.  Two, it's nice to have money.  In Jackson and Natchez I stayed in nicer hotels.  I still got them on Priceline for about $100 bucks a night, but there were $50 options available.  What the hell is $50 bucks to us? 
Three, I'm ready for retirement.  I enjoyed my week alone so much, I can't wait for the freedom to explore more on my bicycle and with my backpack. 
I'd been studying up on the Civil War battles prior to the trip.  The battle of Vicksburg Mississippi was laid out in this area.   Sure you can reach it all by car.  But that's too fast.  Your mind needs to take in the terrain and your muscles need to feel the hills.  Even at 10 miles per hour pedaling a loaded down bicycle it's too fast.  But, it gets you closer to the land.  I saw the fields they camped in and the streams they drank from. 
I hope to complete the Natchez Trace from Nashville back to Jackson in the Spring.  Just wanted to share a bit of the experience.

Right on, Bateaux! 

Longer bike trips -solo or otherwise- are one of my own motivations for ER, too.  My big bucket list ride is the Great Divide Mountain Bike Route.  Good on you for starting to figure out the mechanics of riding with gear.  I've only done a little bit of that myself, but every year I get a little more confident with the mechanics of it.

The Divide route is on my radar.  Maybe in sections and not all at once for the race.  Good luck and enjoy the journey getting there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on December 05, 2021, 12:43:54 PM

Bateaux:
You might want to see Port Hudson in your neighborhood.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Port_Hudson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Hudson_State_Historic_Site

Walking near still-deep trenches 150 years old is a humbling experience.

Quote from: Bateaux on December 05, 2021, 11:50:03 AM

......
Three, I'm ready for retirement.  I enjoyed my week alone so much, I can't wait for the freedom to explore more on my bicycle and with my backpack. 

I'd been studying up on the Civil War battles prior to the trip.  The battle of Vicksburg Mississippi was laid out in this area.   Sure you can reach it all by car.  But that's too fast.  Your mind needs to take in the terrain and your muscles need to feel the hills.  Even at 10 miles per hour pedaling a loaded down bicycle it's too fast.  But, it gets you closer to the land.  I saw the fields they camped in and the streams they drank from.  .....

Just do it!...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 05, 2021, 03:43:16 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 05, 2021, 11:04:41 AM

Hey what's been up gang?  Market took a slight dump.  Ho hum. 
Me and my bicycle spend last week out on the Natchez Trace.  Went with all my camping gear for 220 miles of solo cycling.  I was able to exercise off all that Thanksgiving crap.   It was out and back between Natchez Mississippi and Jackson Mississippi.   I parked my truck at Rocky Springs Campground.  I did a hotel night in Jackson and Natchez, while camping at Rocky Springs near the midpoint.  I could have just left the camping gear at the truck and rode lighter.  Instead I wanted to simulate a point to point and train with the added weight as a shakedown.  The four days of riding did teach me some things.  One, even the stuff you can strap to a bicycle is too much stuff.  Two, it's nice to have money.  In Jackson and Natchez I stayed in nicer hotels.  I still got them on Priceline for about $100 bucks a night, but there were $50 options available.  What the hell is $50 bucks to us? 
Three, I'm ready for retirement.  I enjoyed my week alone so much, I can't wait for the freedom to explore more on my bicycle and with my backpack. 

Something good to dream about and maybe even plan for as I look out the window and see the freezing rain cover the deck.  My panniers work fine for grocery hauling so this sounds do-able.  Once again, you've made the book, "Miles From Nowhere," pop into my head.
I'd been studying up on the Civil War battles prior to the trip.  The battle of Vicksburg Mississippi was laid out in this area.   Sure you can reach it all by car.  But that's too fast.  Your mind needs to take in the terrain and your muscles need to feel the hills.  Even at 10 miles per hour pedaling a loaded down bicycle it's too fast.  But, it gets you closer to the land.  I saw the fields they camped in and the streams they drank from. 
I hope to complete the Natchez Trace from Nashville back to Jackson in the Spring.  Just wanted to share a bit of the experience.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2021, 05:33:50 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 08, 2021, 08:05:38 AM

I'd say we're on par with net worth being at net lifetime job earnings, maybe not gross.  Going to the Social Security website is probably my only way to check. 
There are derogatory sayings like, "That tightwad has every dollar he's ever made!"
They are talking about you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 08, 2021, 11:00:54 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 08, 2021, 08:05:38 AM

I'd say we're on par with net worth being at net lifetime job earnings, maybe not gross.  Going to the Social Security website is probably my only way to check. 
There are derogatory sayings like, "That tightwad has every dollar he's ever made!"
They are talking about you.

They advantage to having worked for the Federal Government minus my HS and College jobs, my pay stub portal has all 20 W2s still available.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 08, 2021, 11:48:01 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 08, 2021, 08:05:38 AM

I'd say we're on par with net worth being at net lifetime job earnings, maybe not gross.  Going to the Social Security website is probably my only way to check. 
There are derogatory sayings like, "That tightwad has every dollar he's ever made!"
They are talking about you.

I'm not positive the SS site will help you for this purpose if you are a high earner.   I **think** it just shows SS taxable income, not full income.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 01:46:09 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

I just checked. Hell, my house is worth more than I made in my lifetime! HCOLA for the win! /s

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 08, 2021, 05:04:10 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2021, 05:33:50 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoePublic3.14 on December 08, 2021, 06:38:19 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 08, 2021, 08:05:38 AM

There are derogatory sayings like, "That tightwad has every dollar he's ever made!"

The dollars those dollars have made would really tick them off. Fortunately, most of them don’t get it…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on December 08, 2021, 08:49:32 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 08, 2021, 11:48:01 AM

I'm not positive the SS site will help you for this purpose if you are a high earner.   I **think** it just shows SS taxable income, not full income.

I was looking at it yesterday and it shows Medicare earnings as well, so it should provide a decent estimate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 09, 2021, 03:29:06 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 08, 2021, 05:04:10 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2021, 05:33:50 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?

In my book if you have the $'s to qualify then you belong! we all get to where we want to be different ways and have different Ideas of what being frugal and or how or what we want for retirement. I will say I am nowhere near as frugal as others on here as well but I am a lot more frugal than I was and a hell of a lot more frugal than most people or aliens that are roaming our planet.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 09, 2021, 06:26:06 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 09, 2021, 03:29:06 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 08, 2021, 05:04:10 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2021, 05:33:50 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?

In my book if you have the $'s to qualify then you belong! we all get to where we want to be different ways and have different Ideas of what being frugal and or how or what we want for retirement. I will say I am nowhere near as frugal as others on here as well but I am a lot more frugal than I was and a hell of a lot more frugal than most people or aliens that are roaming our planet.

I'm with you on that one....it has been a meandering path for sure, with detours and deviations.  I've finally atoned [financially] for some past mistakes and have righted the ship, but need a few years of W2 earnings + market growth to get to a more comfortable place to pull the trigger on RE.

Well done on your being able to FIRE at 50....several years ahead of me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on December 09, 2021, 11:03:16 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 08, 2021, 05:04:10 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2021, 05:33:50 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?

I'm pretty sure that my frugality has been slipping away year by year.  I'm Mustachian at heart, but spending much more freely now.   I'm not quite sure how I drifted so far from frugal, but.  it's definitely related to the fact that I couldn't spend it all if I tried.  So, there you have it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 09, 2021, 11:36:15 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 09, 2021, 03:29:06 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 08, 2021, 05:04:10 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2021, 05:33:50 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?

In my book if you have the $'s to qualify then you belong! we all get to where we want to be different ways and have different Ideas of what being frugal and or how or what we want for retirement. I will say I am nowhere near as frugal as others on here as well but I am a lot more frugal than I was and a hell of a lot more frugal than most people or aliens that are roaming our planet.

Hey!  Keep it quiet about the frugal aliens.  The world is not ready to learn about the planet Tightwad yet.

I've been meaning to tell you it's "Arctic."  I have seen the frozen tundra in Green Bay.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 09, 2021, 02:00:54 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 09, 2021, 11:36:15 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 09, 2021, 03:29:06 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 08, 2021, 05:04:10 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2021, 05:33:50 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?

In my book if you have the $'s to qualify then you belong! we all get to where we want to be different ways and have different Ideas of what being frugal and or how or what we want for retirement. I will say I am nowhere near as frugal as others on here as well but I am a lot more frugal than I was and a hell of a lot more frugal than most people or aliens that are roaming our planet.

Hey!  Keep it quiet about the frugal aliens.  The world is not ready to learn about the planet Tightwad yet.

I've been meaning to tell you it's "Arctic."  I have seen the frozen tundra in Green Bay.

haha- To funny! The Tundra is going to get walloped tonight and tomorrow

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on December 09, 2021, 02:53:04 PM

Quote from: pecunia on December 09, 2021, 11:36:15 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 09, 2021, 03:29:06 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 08, 2021, 05:04:10 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2021, 05:33:50 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?

In my book if you have the $'s to qualify then you belong! we all get to where we want to be different ways and have different Ideas of what being frugal and or how or what we want for retirement. I will say I am nowhere near as frugal as others on here as well but I am a lot more frugal than I was and a hell of a lot more frugal than most people or aliens that are roaming our planet.

Hey!  Keep it quiet about the frugal aliens.  The world is not ready to learn about the planet Tightwad yet.

I've been meaning to tell you it's "Arctic."  I have seen the frozen tundra in Green Bay.

What a coincidence, I drive a Green Tundra. 


I usually avoid talking about aliens (or the voices in my head). 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SteadyStache on December 09, 2021, 10:11:01 PM

Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 10, 2021, 01:25:38 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on December 09, 2021, 11:03:16 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 08, 2021, 05:04:10 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2021, 05:33:50 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?

I'm pretty sure that my frugality has been slipping away year by year.  I'm Mustachian at heart, but spending much more freely now.   I'm not quite sure how I drifted so far from frugal, but.  it's definitely related to the fact that I couldn't spend it all if I tried.  So, there you have it.

I've definitely been spending more lately.  It's the rewards of a lifetime of frugality. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 10, 2021, 01:30:14 AM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 09, 2021, 10:11:01 PM

Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.

Well, welcome aboard lurker.  I'm not FIRED yet either.  Spring 2023 for me.  When I first came to MMM I was going to quit with 1.5 million.  Then I found this thread.  Had to make more to keep up with the cool kids.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 10, 2021, 03:09:29 AM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 09, 2021, 10:11:01 PM

Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.

Welcome aboard! It's possible that RE when you're net worth is at this level may actually be harder than those retiring with smaller stashes. Very likely you got here due to a combination of some level of frugality and a high income. Giving up the firehose of income can be hard - but it can be done :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 10, 2021, 04:01:59 AM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 09, 2021, 10:11:01 PM

Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.

Welcome! Always good to see more people join. Once your in you in if market dips and you drop below 2M that doesn't knock you out imho. At least I have never seen it stated that way. Good group of people as you know if you have been a creepy Lurker for years  haha!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 10, 2021, 04:04:12 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 10, 2021, 01:25:38 AM

Quote from: JoJoP on December 09, 2021, 11:03:16 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 08, 2021, 05:04:10 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2021, 05:33:50 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?

I'm pretty sure that my frugality has been slipping away year by year.  I'm Mustachian at heart, but spending much more freely now.   I'm not quite sure how I drifted so far from frugal, but.  it's definitely related to the fact that I couldn't spend it all if I tried.  So, there you have it.

I've definitely been spending more lately.  It's the rewards of a lifetime of frugality.

You earned it, Pun intended!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on December 10, 2021, 06:22:58 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 10, 2021, 04:01:59 AM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 09, 2021, 10:11:01 PM

Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.

Welcome! Always good to see more people join. Once your in you in if market dips and you drop below 2M that doesn't knock you out imho. At least I have never seen it stated that way. Good group of people as you know if you have been a creepy Lurker for years  haha!

This is the only race thread I have ever posted in because it tends to be more general discussion and less actual numbers. But sure, come on over and ask to see my proof of membership.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 10, 2021, 06:39:00 AM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 09, 2021, 10:11:01 PM

Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.

I think you are set.  I've been worried about a big dip for years, other than blips, it has never come.  It kinda feels good, doesn't it?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 10, 2021, 07:09:08 AM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 09, 2021, 10:11:01 PM

Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.

I'll add my welcome @SteadyStache and we're in a similar position today on LNW so we will likely rise or fall together, barring other extraneous events. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on December 10, 2021, 07:18:42 AM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 09, 2021, 10:11:01 PM

Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.

Congrats & Welcome. 


:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SteadyStache on December 10, 2021, 09:49:33 AM

Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 10, 2021, 02:19:51 PM

Saw an article today headlined "Robert Kiyosaki expects a market crash and economic crisis - and plans to buy gold, bitcoin and real estate when prices tumble" and that he's been taking this position for more than a year.  Without commenting on the investing acumen / wisdom of Robert Kiyosaki, it is funny to consider that, since he has been calling for this "crash" the S&P 500 is up 29% (if not more, considering I don't know EXACTLY how long he has been saying this).   Better be one hell of a crash....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 10, 2021, 03:02:43 PM

Quote from: arcturus on December 10, 2021, 02:19:51 PM

Saw an article today headlined "Robert Kiyosaki expects a market crash and economic crisis - and plans to buy gold, bitcoin and real estate when prices tumble" and that he's been taking this position for more than a year.  Without commenting on the investing acumen / wisdom of Robert Kiyosaki, it is funny to consider that, since he has been calling for this "crash" the S&P 500 is up 29% (if not more, considering I don't know EXACTLY how long he has been saying this).   Better be one hell of a crash....

The prognostications that make predictions without any timelines are the ones that crack me up the most.  I will gladly make a bold prediction now that a market crash and economic crisis is 'coming' ;-)
Drives me even more crazy when I see it in the other (optimistic) direction  (e.g. those headlines like X predicts Dow 60,000....but then you read the article and it doesn't give a timeline for that 60k....um, ok, duh).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on December 10, 2021, 04:49:08 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on December 08, 2021, 05:33:50 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM

I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

I'm triple.  Worked off and on for 25 years.  This ratio is mostly a function of age as compounding does most of the work of increasing NW. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 11, 2021, 04:01:40 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on December 10, 2021, 03:02:43 PM

Quote from: arcturus on December 10, 2021, 02:19:51 PM

Saw an article today headlined "Robert Kiyosaki expects a market crash and economic crisis - and plans to buy gold, bitcoin and real estate when prices tumble" and that he's been taking this position for more than a year.  Without commenting on the investing acumen / wisdom of Robert Kiyosaki, it is funny to consider that, since he has been calling for this "crash" the S&P 500 is up 29% (if not more, considering I don't know EXACTLY how long he has been saying this).   Better be one hell of a crash....

The prognostications that make predictions without any timelines are the ones that crack me up the most.  I will gladly make a bold prediction now that a market crash and economic crisis is 'coming' ;-)
Drives me even more crazy when I see it in the other (optimistic) direction  (e.g. those headlines like X predicts Dow 60,000....but then you read the article and it doesn't give a timeline for that 60k....um, ok, duh).

So many predictors hoping that if a crash or new level is made they get naming rights and its nothing more than that. Example the Hanes Bottom. Or Haines. Not sure how he spelled his name. No one can predict these things if its an open dated prediction. Hell thats even easier than being a Weather man.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on December 11, 2021, 10:01:24 AM

An interesting last few weeks.  With the market dropping a bunch, then inching back up and a few good pumps back up, I do tend to look at the bright side.  While my portfolio high hasn't been hit yet again, I see that it's risen in the last week by $100k.  A hundred grand!!!  Now, my accounting is all done by hand, offline on an excel spread sheet.  I do a rebalance at 5% up on either equities or bonds.  I'm at 54 and about a half percent in equities (target 50 even).  I won't pull the trigger early, but it feels pretty good that the portfolio's up and soon, I'll be rebalancing to make it stick even more for the near future.

DW has an inheritance that she's the executor for with an aunt.  Holy cow, could old people really screw things up for people they're trying to cut corners to "in their mind" give more to.  What do I mean?

US Savings bonds from the grandfather/grandmother dating back as far as 1941.  This is because of that good ole old timer thought that you never tell the government anything, so it wasn't included in the estate when both grandparents were dead.  So now, we had to re-open the grandfather's probate which costs lawyer money and 2 years of tax returns.  The bond value in total is around $75k, split between DW and sister in law.  Both get along well, so no drama.  Just a ton of work.

Aunt worked for the state.  There was a state life policy worth about $14k total with both sisters named as beneficiaries.  Outside of probate but we're talking a 20 page, complicated form that was first rejected because the notary supposedly wrote something on the wrong line.  Resubmission and finally the check is here.

Another life policy with Metlife that was pretty easy for like $1k.

While in process, DW's 87 year old father brings her a paper.  Seems he and grandmother took out some kind of policy when she was 1.  They were clearly sold a bill of goods as this is called something like a paid up policy.  He thought she should be getting $1k.  She collected $600.  Why?  The $1k was a death benefit on her.

The aunt put my wife on as joint on her bank accounts.  The good with those thought that she could take the money outside of probate and not tell the government what's going on.  In reality, one of them is over $150k, and my wife knows that the aunt meant everything to be split 50/50 with her sister, so both are being cashed into the estate account and going through probate.  And of course the Aunt's estate account is going to get the remainder of the savings bond money because the aunt inherited everything from the grandparents.  So their wishes to screw the government, thinking like lots of people that even if you have a small estate that the government takes something, which is 100% wrong were thwarted.  And of course for DW, all this makes things much more complicated.

So while both DW and her sister would have taken home about $100k each in inheritance here, lawyer fees and all the wonderful mailings and taxes are probably cutting a third from each of them.

Time wise, DW will have at least 100 hours of her time into this.  She hates doing this stuff and considered just resigning as executor and declining all the inheritance.  I'm sure the old timers would roll over in their graves seeing what they did to avoid any attention by anyone in government is being completely exposed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 11, 2021, 01:39:41 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 11, 2021, 10:01:24 AM

Time wise, DW will have at least 100 hours of her time into this.  She hates doing this stuff and considered just resigning as executor and declining all the inheritance.  I'm sure the old timers would roll over in their graves seeing what they did to avoid any attention by anyone in government is being completely exposed.

There was a similarly messy situation in my family a few years ago. My aunt died and left my dad as executor. But my dad was unfortunately deep in Alzheimer's so was unable to do this. and to make matters worse, the will was very badly drafted with lots of inconsistencies . My mom started to get panicky but thankfully, there was an alternative executor who was designated in the will. So with the help of a doctor's certificate, we dodged the mess. Last I heard, they are still trying to sort out the will three years later.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on December 11, 2021, 04:00:50 PM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 10, 2021, 09:49:33 AM

Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on December 11, 2021, 04:28:01 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 11, 2021, 04:00:50 PM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 10, 2021, 09:49:33 AM

Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

"Itchyfeet" ?  It sounds like you were dreaming of travel the day you chose the name to use here.  Do you still yearn to travel?  Maybe traveling isn't your really what you're looking for, but perhaps you'll discover your true future goals while seeing some of the world. 


Regardless, to continue selling your days just because you're afraid that you'll be bored with the life that you choose to live isn't putting much faith in the Bad Ass you that made that big "pile o' cash".  You'll figure it out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 12, 2021, 03:35:39 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on December 11, 2021, 04:28:01 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 11, 2021, 04:00:50 PM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 10, 2021, 09:49:33 AM

Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

"Itchyfeet" ?  It sounds like you were dreaming of travel the day you chose the name to use here.  Do you still yearn to travel?  Maybe traveling isn't your really what you're looking for, but perhaps you'll discover your true future goals while seeing some of the world. 


Regardless, to continue selling your days just because you're afraid that you'll be bored with the life that you choose to live isn't putting much faith in the Bad Ass you that made that big "pile o' cash".  You'll figure it out.

Definitely better to take your time and follow the saying " have something to retire to" I really didn't have that choice and it took me a lot longer to go through the transition then most.  7 years this April and while it was the right thing for me I still learn that more and more each day as things come up I need to take care of. When your ready you'll just be done! no reason to force it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 12, 2021, 11:16:25 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 11, 2021, 04:00:50 PM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 10, 2021, 09:49:33 AM

Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

I find it a bit funny when folks use the term workaholic on this forum.  Sure, there are people in the real world that neglect their family, but then why come to a forum that tells you how great it is to 'retire'? 

I think there is a healthy world of working beyond FI to do good things for others that are not FI.  I personally feel very empowered to make mine and my DW's work better for the others that are on the path to FI.

Long story short, don't stress retirement.  It will come to you sooner or later anyway!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 13, 2021, 01:11:08 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 11, 2021, 04:00:50 PM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 10, 2021, 09:49:33 AM

Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

Having just failed my 4th attempt at retirement by taking a contract role (at 60 years old) I feel you..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 13, 2021, 03:27:31 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 11, 2021, 04:00:50 PM

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

You should take a look at this thought provoking article (https://moretothat.com/the-many-worlds-of-enough/) on More to That. I think it speaks to your situation quite directly.

Quote

To a large extent, this is true. By defining what enough means, you’re giving yourself a concrete barometer to judge your desires by, and whether or not they are worth having. It’s the best way to tell your future self, “Hey, don’t forget where you come from.”

The problem, however, is that this future self is a projection of your present-day desires. When you’re defining what enough means, you’re effectively saying, “Given what I want today, I just need this much more of it to be satisfied in the future.” But how plausible is it that what you want today will remain unchanged as you march onward to your goal?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on December 13, 2021, 07:32:51 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 13, 2021, 01:11:08 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 11, 2021, 04:00:50 PM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 10, 2021, 09:49:33 AM

Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

Having just failed my 4th attempt at retirement by taking a contract role (at 60 years old) I feel you..:)

Loser /jk 🤑

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 13, 2021, 07:53:27 AM

Quote from: G-dog on December 13, 2021, 07:32:51 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 13, 2021, 01:11:08 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 11, 2021, 04:00:50 PM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 10, 2021, 09:49:33 AM

Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

Having just failed my 4th attempt at retirement by taking a contract role (at 60 years old) I feel you..:)

Loser /jk 🤑

Loser /nk 🤣

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soulpatchmike on December 13, 2021, 08:57:44 AM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 10, 2021, 09:49:33 AM

Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

If your first FAFSA is for Fall 2025 and you want to minimize income you need to quit by the end of 2022.  FAFSA uses 2 yr prior tax returns to ensure everyone uses the same income tax year return.  All of the extensions have run out by the second year.  Taxable account values are as of the date you file the FAFSA, but income is 2 years old.
Fall 2022 start uses 2020 tax return
FA 2023 uses 2021
FA 2024 uses 2022
FA 2025 uses 2023

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SteadyStache on December 13, 2021, 09:19:26 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 11, 2021, 04:00:50 PM

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

Financials and trepidation are definitely driving my (in)decision now, but I think I'll be out before hitting the great beyond.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SteadyStache on December 13, 2021, 09:27:59 AM

Quote from: soulpatchmike on December 13, 2021, 08:57:44 AM

If your first FAFSA is for Fall 2025 and you want to minimize income you need to quit by the end of 2022.  FAFSA uses 2 yr prior tax returns to ensure everyone uses the same income tax year return.  All of the extensions have run out by the second year.  Taxable account values are as of the date you file the FAFSA, but income is 2 years old.
Fall 2022 start uses 2020 tax return
FA 2023 uses 2021
FA 2024 uses 2022
FA 2025 uses 2023

Yup, understood. DD will head to college in 2025, so my 1st FAFSA year is 2023. I do plan on qualifying for the simplified means test, so my end date should EOY 2022.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on December 13, 2021, 11:44:42 AM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 13, 2021, 09:27:59 AM

Quote from: soulpatchmike on December 13, 2021, 08:57:44 AM

If your first FAFSA is for Fall 2025 and you want to minimize income you need to quit by the end of 2022.  FAFSA uses 2 yr prior tax returns to ensure everyone uses the same income tax year return.  All of the extensions have run out by the second year.  Taxable account values are as of the date you file the FAFSA, but income is 2 years old.
Fall 2022 start uses 2020 tax return
FA 2023 uses 2021
FA 2024 uses 2022
FA 2025 uses 2023

Yup, understood. DH will head to college in 2025, so my 1st FAFSA year is 2023. I do plan on qualifying for the simplified means test, so my end date should EOY 2022.

Be aware that the rules for SNT (and FAFSA generally) are changing due to a law passed about a year ago.  Google "FAFSA Simplification" for details.  May affect your planning a little bit.  I know I'm having to incorporate the changes in my 2021 income tax planning for my two college sophomores' FAFSAs.  In my case the AGI for SNT dropped by about $500.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 22, 2021, 09:54:01 PM

Well an interesting executive order was signed and I get my 2.2% raise for next year.  I wasn’t expecting more because government.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 24, 2021, 10:50:49 AM

I just want to say Happy Bowl season to the Southern Members of this group and Happy holidays to all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 29, 2021, 10:10:16 AM

So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 29, 2021, 11:04:12 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 29, 2021, 10:10:16 AM

So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.

I think I mentioned it upthread, but our RE has skyrocketed in 2021. As in, I could make this club on RE equity alone. Yesterday, I got a ping from Zillow. One of our rentals "went up" in "value" $8,800 in the last 30 days! Bonkers!

We are also going to be receiving a substantial inheritance soon. We never counted on that in our planning.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on December 29, 2021, 11:24:07 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 29, 2021, 10:10:16 AM

So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.

Up about 21% YTD.  Starting seventh (!) year of FIRE.  NW is a bit more than 2X what I had on my FIRE date, despite about 27 semesters of college / private high school during that time frame.  12 more semesters to go (approximately, knock wood).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on December 29, 2021, 11:30:58 AM

I think we are up about 25% this year. I remember in March 2020 we sank to $1.9m, and now we are over $3.2m


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Watchmaker on December 29, 2021, 11:50:55 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 29, 2021, 10:10:16 AM

So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.

NW up by 33%. But not retired yet, so I worked for a lot of that increase.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on December 29, 2021, 11:55:30 AM

Primary residence value up something like $200k.
Investments up at least 200k.  More if you count SO's crypto.
Still have enough liquid cash to cover 7-8 years of living expenses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 29, 2021, 12:09:41 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 29, 2021, 10:10:16 AM

So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.

18% is an awesome percentage of growth!

Ours went up 10.8%, but that's with us spending like crazy on stuff.   Don't have any plans to do that again next year, all the extra expenses were either one-time ones or things that don't have to be done for another decade or so.

Then again, another way to look at it is our net worth went up by $306,000, about 50-50 equities and real estate appreciation. 

At a certain point, even a very small percentage of growth is all it takes to live well and get richer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: KitchenSink on December 29, 2021, 02:36:58 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 29, 2021, 10:10:16 AM

So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.

Entered the year at $3MM investable assets (excluding primary residence).  Exiting at $4MM, having now reached the great "beyond".

I did work full-time for 2021.  I'm dropping down to 3d/wk in the new year (fully work-from-home), for as long as it's entertaining, and then retiring for real.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 29, 2021, 03:03:48 PM

Quote from: KitchenSink on December 29, 2021, 02:36:58 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 29, 2021, 10:10:16 AM

So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.

Entered the year at $3MM investable assets (excluding primary residence).  Exiting at $4MM, having now reached the great "beyond".

I did work full-time for 2021.  I'm dropping down to 3d/wk in the new year (fully work-from-home), for as long as it's entertaining, and then retiring for real.

Good for you man!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 29, 2021, 05:33:24 PM

Quote from: KitchenSink on December 29, 2021, 02:36:58 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 29, 2021, 10:10:16 AM

So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.

Entered the year at $3MM investable assets (excluding primary residence).  Exiting at $4MM, having now reached the great "beyond".

I did work full-time for 2021.  I'm dropping down to 3d/wk in the new year (fully work-from-home), for as long as it's entertaining, and then retiring for real.

Outstanding job!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 29, 2021, 08:02:45 PM

Congrats to all for your success.  As for me, I entered the year at about $1.8M invested and exited with $2.3M invested -- 25% growth.  Some unplanned expenses at the end of the year knocked ~1 percentage point off of my growth rate for the year.  Still feel good about achieving my goal of $2.3M invested.  I don't see a repeat of this in 2022, setting my goal for a more reasonable growth rate and a year end balance of ~$2.6M invested.  That would still be 11% growth, but keep in mind, I'm actively contributing to my stash at present and plan to do so for all of 2022, so the assumed investment gains are more like 6%. 

Happy New Year to all!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 29, 2021, 09:07:23 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 29, 2021, 12:09:41 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 29, 2021, 10:10:16 AM

So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.

18% is an awesome percentage of growth!

Ours went up 10.8%, but that's with us spending like crazy on stuff.   Don't have any plans to do that again next year, all the extra expenses were either one-time ones or things that don't have to be done for another decade or so.

Then again, another way to look at it is our net worth went up by $306,000, about 50-50 equities and real estate appreciation. 

At a certain point, even a very small percentage of growth is all it takes to live well and get richer.

Realized how much better we would have done this year had we not spent big money on hobbies and home renovation and a rental hvac unit replacement:


  $ 7k rental hvac
+$ 7k garage workshop hvac
+$16k 3d printing software, printer, accessories, plus new casting tools
+$14k house painting/ext wood repair
+$ 5k electrical work (new circuits)
+$ 6k wife's hobbies
+$ 1k hvac home repair
+$ 1k plumbing repairs
+$13k new, additional charitable spending
+$12k leveling farm land
=$82k extra spending
 

That's a lot!!!   Our percentage of wealth growth this year would have been a good bit higher.

Good thing the rest of our expenses are a whole lot lower!!!

However, other than about $4k each on hobbies and the $13k additional for charity , those were all one-time or very-infrequent expenses, i.e., once a decade or less.

I know I've gotten one heck of a lot of fun out of my (very) large share of the spending..

Unless we have 2 more hvacs on our home fail (they will eventually, they're on borrowed time), we don't have any major expenses other than the charity.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on December 29, 2021, 09:27:50 PM

According to Mint, we're up almost 1m this year.    It was a good year for Real Estate appreciation.   

Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: trashtalk on December 29, 2021, 10:04:22 PM

We bought a condo in March for pandemic-weirdness reasons. We paid $425k (cash). Both Zillow and Redfin claim it’s now worth $475k. Hard to say if that’s “real” and we don’t plan on selling but it beats a kick in the face.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 30, 2021, 03:48:42 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 29, 2021, 09:07:23 PM

Realized how much better we would have done this year had we not spent big money on hobbies and home renovation and a rental hvac unit replacement:


  $ 7k rental hvac
+$ 7k garage workshop hvac
+$16k 3d printing software, printer, accessories, plus new casting tools
+$14k house painting/ext wood repair
+$ 5k electrical work (new circuits)
+$ 6k wife's hobbies
+$ 1k hvac home repair
+$ 1k plumbing repairs
+$13k new, additional charitable spending
+$12k leveling farm land
=$82k extra spending
 

We also spent a fair bit on home renovations - mostly things that were many years overdue. Our basement was a disaster zone but getting it fixed promised to be so time consuming that this project had to wait until I was retired.  I got a study and hobby work shop built in our basement so it has given me a wonderful start to retired life.
 
I have also been thinking of buying a 3D printer next year - there seem to be so many ways to use it in building models. Which one did you get? And what do you plan to do with the farm land?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on December 30, 2021, 04:02:03 AM

Goes to show that one needs to be careful not to underestimate home maintenance costs for post FIRE, including appliance replacement etc.

I too spent a small fortune on new floorboards and a new kitchen during this past year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 30, 2021, 05:42:29 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 30, 2021, 03:48:42 AM

I have also been thinking of buying a 3D printer next year - there seem to be so many ways to use it in building models. Which one did you get? And what do you plan to do with the farm land?

I got a Formlabs Form 3.   It's a very high end resin printer with tremendous resolution.  I use it to print resin/wax models that I then cast in metal.  I couldn't find a lower end printer that was capable of printing the level of detail that I wanted.

We have two families who farm the land on our behalf and we share the crops.   Soybeans and rice, mostly.  Leveling the land means we spend less acreage building small levees for the rice, so we have more land in actual cultivation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 30, 2021, 05:48:25 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 30, 2021, 04:02:03 AM

Goes to show that one needs to be careful not to underestimate home maintenance costs for post FIRE, including appliance replacement etc.

I too spent a small fortune on new floorboards and a new kitchen during this past year.

Out of that huge laundry list of spending on our home, only about $5k of it was in materials needed for repairs or renovations.  Most of the electrical and hvac expense was to upgrade stuff for my hobbies (except for the hvac for the rental).  But it would have taken me months and months to do it all myself  'cause I'm just not that young anymore and I didn't want to spend that time.   I had things I actually WANTED to be doing instead.    So I forked over the cash and got to spend this year the way I wanted to instead.   Worth every dollar to me.   And that's what's great about being solidly FI instead of shoestring FI, I have that choice.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 30, 2021, 06:43:13 AM

Quote from: KitchenSink on December 29, 2021, 02:36:58 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 29, 2021, 10:10:16 AM

So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.

Entered the year at $3MM investable assets (excluding primary residence).  Exiting at $4MM, having now reached the great "beyond".

I did work full-time for 2021.  I'm dropping down to 3d/wk in the new year (fully work-from-home), for as long as it's entertaining, and then retiring for real.

Wow, thats a great move. My LNW has moved from $3.3M to $3.8M which I guess is a decent 15%, which is similar to my core investment of VASGX (I have some investments that pushed it up and have built up a decent pile of cash for my upcoming RE that has pulled it back down to that same average, it seems generally though its the international component of VASGX that continues to lag and kept me from seeing the huge s&P 500 return this year).  I still work enough to pay the bills (plus should make a six figure profit sharing bonus for the year paid out in a couple months). 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on December 30, 2021, 07:16:32 AM

Expensive year for us-
$22k cash on new (slightly used) car- this was a necessity
$3,800 cash for braces for kid (got a discount for paying cash!!)
about $7,500 ?? (I've honestly lost track) on travel with the kids- YOLO
and lots of other spendy kid things that I've lost track of- local theme park passes, phone for now 13 year old, lots of sports and gear for those sports (lots of gear we bought used), boy scout gear, music lessons and a private swing coach for golf. Yeah. I'll take my face punches now.
Despite that our invested assets increased 20% and we are still FI (without including RE
I guess I've hit the point where I realize we've only got maybe 10 more years of kids under our roof and we might as well enjoy spending money on doing things with them, and on helping them discover the world and their talents. Oh, and their education.

Theme for 2022 - YOLO, do I have to turn in my MMM membership card?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 30, 2021, 07:33:24 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on December 30, 2021, 07:16:32 AM

Expensive year for us-
$22k cash on new (slightly used) car- this was a necessity
$3,800 cash for braces for kid (got a discount for paying cash!!)
about $7,500 ?? (I've honestly lost track) on travel with the kids- YOLO
and lots of other spendy kid things that I've lost track of- local theme park passes, phone for now 13 year old, lots of sports and gear for those sports (lots of gear we bought used), boy scout gear, music lessons and a private swing coach for golf. Yeah. I'll take my face punches now.
Despite that our invested assets increased 20% and we are still FI (without including RE
I guess I've hit the point where I realize we've only got maybe 10 more years of kids under our roof and we might as well enjoy spending money on doing things with them, and on helping them discover the world and their talents. Oh, and their education.

Theme for 2022 - YOLO, do I have to turn in my MMM membership card?

Only if you had tried to do all that stuff before qualifying for this club.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SteadyStache on December 30, 2021, 09:34:28 AM

LNW up ~34% since this AM not including cash. Spent about 17K on deck this year during the sky-high lumber costs. Yes, really bad timing!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on December 30, 2021, 09:52:59 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 29, 2021, 12:09:41 PM

At a certain point, even a very small percentage of growth is all it takes to live well and get richer.

I know, Right!  I mean if the portfolio just grows 3-4% inflation adjusted each year I will never run out! Crazy how low of a bar that is.  Should be a rule about that or something....lol.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on December 30, 2021, 11:14:07 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 30, 2021, 05:48:25 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on December 30, 2021, 04:02:03 AM

Goes to show that one needs to be careful not to underestimate home maintenance costs for post FIRE, including appliance replacement etc.

I too spent a small fortune on new floorboards and a new kitchen during this past year.

Out of that huge laundry list of spending on our home, only about $5k of it was in materials needed for repairs or renovations.  Most of the electrical and hvac expense was to upgrade stuff for my hobbies (except for the hvac for the rental).  But it would have taken me months and months to do it all myself  'cause I'm just not that young anymore and I didn't want to spend that time.   I had things I actually WANTED to be doing instead.    So I forked over the cash and got to spend this year the way I wanted to instead.   Worth every dollar to me.   And that's what's great about being solidly FI instead of shoestring FI, I have that choice.

We have spent 30k+ on home repairs over the past two years.  We are still at a 2% WR.  As the majority of people posting in this thread probably are.  If you have modest spending in your regular categories you can easily afford the extras.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 30, 2021, 02:40:15 PM

Quote from: SteadyStache on December 30, 2021, 09:34:28 AM

LNW up ~34% since this AM not including cash. Spent about 17K on deck this year during the sky-high lumber costs. Yes, really bad timing!

Yeah i went through the same thing but I really had no choice my old one was ready to fall off the house. Ours was two levels a lot of work and materials were to much and hard to come by. But glad its done now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on December 30, 2021, 02:48:31 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 30, 2021, 07:33:24 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on December 30, 2021, 07:16:32 AM

Expensive year for us-
$22k cash on new (slightly used) car- this was a necessity
$3,800 cash for braces for kid (got a discount for paying cash!!)
about $7,500 ?? (I've honestly lost track) on travel with the kids- YOLO
and lots of other spendy kid things that I've lost track of- local theme park passes, phone for now 13 year old, lots of sports and gear for those sports (lots of gear we bought used), boy scout gear, music lessons and a private swing coach for golf. Yeah. I'll take my face punches now.
Despite that our invested assets increased 20% and we are still FI (without including RE
I guess I've hit the point where I realize we've only got maybe 10 more years of kids under our roof and we might as well enjoy spending money on doing things with them, and on helping them discover the world and their talents. Oh, and their education.

Theme for 2022 - YOLO, do I have to turn in my MMM membership card?

Only if you had tried to do all that stuff before qualifying for this club.

That's so funny.   Both of you nearly made me spit my coffee.   I'm so glad we can stay and play.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roboturner on December 30, 2021, 02:55:51 PM

Quote from: Roboturner on October 01, 2021, 12:46:40 PM

Spoiler: show

Q2 2016:
LNW: 528k
TNW: 720k

Q3 2016:
LNW: 652k
TNW: 845k

YE 2016:
LNW: 685k
TNW: 893k

Q1 2017:
LNW: 800k
TNW: 1001k

Q2 2017:
LNW: 845k
TNW: 1060k

Q3 2017:
LNW: 921k
TNW: 1142k

YE 2017:
LNW: 1,012k
TNW: 1,230k

Q1 2018:
LNW: 1.09 MM
TNW: 1.33 MM

Q2 2018:
LNW: 1.16 MM
TNW: 1.45 MM

Q3 2018:
LNW: 1.28 MM
TNW: 1.57 MM

YE 2018:
LNW: 1.14 MM
TNW: 1.43 MM

Q1 2019:
LNW: 1.41 MM
TNW: 1.71 MM

Q2 2019:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.78 MM

Q3 2019:
LNW: 1.64 MM
TNW: 1.82 MM

YE 2019:
LNW: 1.84 MM
TNW: 2.02 MM

Q1 2020:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.79 MM

Q2 2020:
LNW: 1.94 MM
TNW: 2.15 MM

Q3 2020:
LNW: 2.12 MM
TNW: 2.46 MM

YE 2020:
LNW: 2.40 MM
TNW: 2.74 MM

Q1 2021:
LNW: 2.69 MM
TNW: 3.00 MM

Q2 2021:
LNW: 2.52 MM
TNW: 3.30 MM

Q3 2021:
LNW: 3.08 MM
TNW: 3.54 MM

YE 2021:
LNW: 3.37 MM
TNW: 3.83 MM

Q1 2022:
LNW: 3.36 MM
TNW: 3.77 MM

Treading water on one salary with an unpredictable market, onward.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on December 30, 2021, 03:27:24 PM

We’re up about 24% this year, but that includes savings and a significant part of the NW is in cash (dumb decision). Still, NW is up 1.5x total earnings and 4x expenses. Not a bad year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 30, 2021, 04:13:53 PM

Quote from: Roboturner on December 30, 2021, 02:55:51 PM

SO FIRE'd in September, and like many others, still went up! I'm hoping for a mid-2022 date myself when my golden handcuffs start coming off - Happy New Year to All!

Congrats!   And end this year right by updating your forum tagline to reflect a MUCH SHORTER timeline until retirement! :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 31, 2021, 08:55:15 AM

Up 18% this year. 

10k for more I bonds, 6k for my IRA and $2,500 for the HSA (there is some pass through) is sitting in my checking account waiting for tomorrow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on December 31, 2021, 08:09:12 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$
November 2021 - 2.89m$
December 2021 - 2.80m$

and FIRED... so today is the first day without work so from now on we will live on static incomes through our investments as well as savings. Some of the dip in last month has gone to house renovation which will show on the real estate assets later when we get it rented out.

First day of a new life... and I'm looking forward to it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: FireLane on December 31, 2021, 08:41:11 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 29, 2021, 10:10:16 AM

So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.

2021 was a fantastic year! I'm up 23% YTD. Just under $2.5M in investments and cash, more like $2.8M including home equity.

Best of all, I retired this year. :)

I'm not counting on future returns to be this good, but a 2.5% WR should be sufficient to handle anything the economy throws at me. If the stock market has another couple of strong years, I'll have to seriously consider ways to spend more, just so I don't die on top of a pile of cash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 31, 2021, 09:02:10 PM

Quote from: FireLane on December 31, 2021, 08:41:11 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 29, 2021, 10:10:16 AM

So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.

2021 was a fantastic year! I'm up 23% YTD. Just under $2.5M in investments and cash, more like $2.8M including home equity.

Best of all, I retired this year. :)

I'm not counting on future returns to be this good, but a 2.5% WR should be sufficient to handle anything the economy throws at me. If the stock market has another couple of strong years, I'll have to seriously consider ways to spend more, just so I don't die on top of a pile of cash.

Note to self:  If the market does well over the next two years, remind @FireLane to post their MPP in that thread...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 31, 2021, 09:23:32 PM

Unless anyone in this club is >75 years old then the probability of not dying on a huge pile of cash is pretty remote!

Assuming reasonable levels of spending of course..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: oldladystache on December 31, 2021, 09:29:49 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 31, 2021, 09:23:32 PM

Unless anyone in this club is >75 years old then the probability of not dying on a huge pile of cash is pretty remote!

Assuming reasonable levels of spending of course..:)

I'm over 75 and I'm giving it away as fast as it comes in. Well, I do spend a little of it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 31, 2021, 09:34:43 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on December 31, 2021, 08:09:12 PM

Jan 2021 - 1.19m$
Feb 2021 - 1.23m$
Mar 2021 - 1.28m$
Apr 2021 - 1.35m$
May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$
November 2021 - 2.89m$
December 2021 - 2.80m$

and FIRED... so today is the first day without work so from now on we will live on static incomes through our investments as well as savings. Some of the dip in last month has gone to house renovation which will show on the real estate assets later when we get it rented out.

First day of a new life... and I'm looking forward to it.

Congrats @Finntastic , well done and good luck -- look forward to hearing your updates.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 31, 2021, 11:29:17 PM

Hello 2022. 
2021 you were our best ever year financially.   Ended up about 3.2M which is a little over 500K increase since a year ago.   2022 is my last full year to work.  I've set my FIRE date to May 15, 2023.  Under 500 days to go now.  I have a feeling it's going to pass very quickly.  It seems 2021 barely existed.  Good luck and health to you all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 31, 2021, 11:42:17 PM

Quote from: oldladystache on December 31, 2021, 09:29:49 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 31, 2021, 09:23:32 PM

Unless anyone in this club is >75 years old then the probability of not dying on a huge pile of cash is pretty remote!

Assuming reasonable levels of spending of course..:)

I'm over 75 and I'm giving it away as fast as it comes in. Well, I do spend a little of it.

❤❤❤❤❤

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on January 01, 2022, 09:28:37 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 31, 2021, 11:29:17 PM

Hello 2022. 
2021 you were our best ever year financially.   Ended up about 3.2M which is a little over 500K increase since a year ago.   2022 is my last full year to work.  I've set my FIRE date to May 15, 2023.  Under 500 days to go now.  I have a feeling it's going to pass very quickly.  It seems 2021 barely existed.  Good luck and health to you all.

Congrats on an amazing 2021 and on setting a date!  Too early for me to set a date, but I'm very encouraged that the end is at least a light at the end of the tunnel that I can see.  As an aside, I'm not a huge subscriber to online retirement planning tools (more of an excel person), BUT -- Fidelity's online retirement planner has become quite comprehensive and useful as a sanity check.  This is not a plug for Fidelity, but I have been impressed by the detail an granularity that they have brought to it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 01, 2022, 10:47:05 AM

Quote from: oldladystache on December 31, 2021, 09:29:49 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 31, 2021, 09:23:32 PM

Unless anyone in this club is >75 years old then the probability of not dying on a huge pile of cash is pretty remote!

Assuming reasonable levels of spending of course..:)

I'm over 75 and I'm giving it away as fast as it comes in. Well, I do spend a little of it.

Fantastic.. And happy Birthday!...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on January 01, 2022, 11:19:41 AM

Amazing progress in this thread!  2021 was a pretty good year for us financially, as well.  My spreadsheet shows a net worth of $2.5M, excluding the equity in our home, and $3.2M including the equity in our home.  I use a fairly conservative value for my home since I don't plan on selling any time soon.  If I used the Zillow value (which I think is a bit high), net worth would be closer to $3.6M.  I am still not including any value from the equity in my company for now.  Investments are up $560K for 2021, most of which is growth. Pretty hard to believe, really!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ShadowRegent on January 01, 2022, 01:39:00 PM

Quote from: ShadowRegent on July 24, 2021, 05:33:26 AM

End of year stats:
2010 - ($188,257)
2011 - ($159,240)
2012 - $75,812
2013 - $82,600
2014 - $190,525
2015 - $593,948
2016 - $619,152
2017 - $961,556
2018 - $966,365
2019 - $1,288,725
2020 - $1,616,389

2021 - $2,180,940

I'm penciling in 1/31/2023 as my FIRE date.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 01, 2022, 01:45:44 PM

@ShadowRegent

Congratulations on FIRE in a little over a year..  Well done!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ShadowRegent on January 01, 2022, 01:49:34 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 01, 2022, 01:45:44 PM

@ShadowRegent

Congratulations on FIRE within a month.  Well done!

Thanks!  It's a year and a month away though :) A literal case of "One More Year" syndrome since cFIREsim is giving a 100% success rate on slightly inflated spending.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 01, 2022, 01:53:07 PM

Quote from: arcturus on January 01, 2022, 09:28:37 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 31, 2021, 11:29:17 PM

Hello 2022. 
2021 you were our best ever year financially.   Ended up about 3.2M which is a little over 500K increase since a year ago.   2022 is my last full year to work.  I've set my FIRE date to May 15, 2023.  Under 500 days to go now.  I have a feeling it's going to pass very quickly.  It seems 2021 barely existed.  Good luck and health to you all.

Congrats on an amazing 2021 and on setting a date!  Too early for me to set a date, but I'm very encouraged that the end is at least a light at the end of the tunnel that I can see.  As an aside, I'm not a huge subscriber to online retirement planning tools (more of an excel person), BUT -- Fidelity's online retirement planner has become quite comprehensive and useful as a sanity check.  This is not a plug for Fidelity, but I have been impressed by the detail an granularity that they have brought to it.

I may look into the Fidelity Planner.  We haven't decided who we'll hold our funds with.  Most likey Schwab, Vanguard or Fidelity.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 01, 2022, 01:54:36 PM

Quote from: ShadowRegent on January 01, 2022, 01:49:34 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 01, 2022, 01:45:44 PM

@ShadowRegent

Congratulations on FIRE within a month.  Well done!

Thanks!  It's a year and a month away though :) A literal case of "One More Year" syndrome since cFIREsim is giving a 100% success rate on slightly inflated spending.

You got me faster than I could correct it.  Either way.  It's not far away now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: CANStache on January 01, 2022, 08:25:31 PM

EOY
2017 - $1.67M
2018 - $1.81M (+6.7%)
2019 - $2.07M (+14.6%)
2020 - $2.34M (+13.0%)
2021 - $2.70M (+15.5% despite buying a new Tesla early in the year)

Who knows what the markets will yield in 2022, but my wife went back to work at the end of last year and she makes quite a bit more than I do, so I expect our savings rate will skyrocket.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 01, 2022, 09:06:57 PM

Quote from: CANStache on January 01, 2022, 08:25:31 PM

EOY
2017 - $1.67M
2018 - $1.81M (+6.7%)
2019 - $2.07M (+14.6%)
2020 - $2.34M (+13.0%)
2021 - $2.70M (+15.5% despite buying a new Tesla early in the year)

Who knows what the markets will yield in 2022, but my wife went back to work at the end of last year and she makes quite a bit more than I do, so I expect our savings rate will skyrocket.

Congratulations on that new Tesla and portfolio rise.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 01, 2022, 09:18:57 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 29, 2021, 12:09:41 PM

Then again, another way to look at it is our net worth went up by $306,000, about 50-50 equities and real estate appreciation. 

At a certain point, even a very small percentage of growth is all it takes to live well and get richer.

Well, the actual end-of-year numbers are in and we're up $314,000 for the year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roboturner on January 02, 2022, 08:25:08 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 30, 2021, 04:13:53 PM

Congrats!   And end this year right by updating your forum tagline to reflect a MUCH SHORTER timeline until retirement! :)

Ha thank you. My ticker is my drop-dead, GHs be damned, but we’ve put our company up for sale so assuming we transact I’ll be able to scoot out this year. Crossing my fingers!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LoanShark on January 02, 2022, 11:12:56 AM

Quote from: LoanShark on February 15, 2021, 11:08:22 AM

Quote from: LoanShark on February 05, 2021, 10:59:39 AM

         Liquid / TNW
12/17 $391k / $911k
12/18 $485k / $1.15M
12/19 $979k / $1.54M
12/20 $1.35M / $1.93M

2/21 $1.55M / $2.14M

Joining this thread and looking forward to the journey to $4M...and Beyond with you guys & gals!

Year end update:

12/21 $2.0M / $2.8M

Officially hit $2MM liquid!

Feels amazing as that # was my original "FI" value. I've since moved that to $2.5MM to throw off $100k annually, pre-tax. We've never spent that much but our budget allows for ~$75-80k of spend annual, so I felt that I needed to gross it up to account for taxes.

If we do nothing, and the market holds up at ~8% annually, we should hit $2.5MM in <3-years. We'll see what happens then, but it's starting to feel very real. Like this is actually going to happen...especially considering that we can kind of let this thing run on auto-pilot from a contribution perspective and it'll happen in the near term (in all likelihood, at least).

We'll have to do some soul searching then to decide if DW, or both of us, will want to hang it up. Maybe we're SWAMI's? Who knows. Cross that bridge when it gets here!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 03, 2022, 03:48:03 AM

Like everyone else here, 2021 was a big year financially.

Net worth increased by 30%!!!!

I find it unbelievable.

A fair portion of the increase in net worth (almost half of the increase) is appreciation of my home, so not of any immediate use.

Let’s see what 2022 brings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on January 03, 2022, 09:10:13 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on November 06, 2021, 08:31:57 AM

Jan/21: As of close of the markets yesterday, we joined this race for the first time with an aggregate balance of $2.005M across all our savings/retirement/investment accounts.  TNW including home equity is somewhere a little north of $2.4M.

Jun/21: LNW was flirting with $2.2M for what seemed like months.  We finally crossed that threshold sometime in the past couple weeks and have stayed there since.  With similar market performance for the rest of the year we could be knocking on the door of $2.5M by end of year, or about $3M TNW.   100k/year @ 4% SWR.  That's nuts.

Aug/21: We crossed $2.3M today.  I don't know why it seemed like such a long time to go from 2.2 to 2.3.  It was only two months.

Nov/21: The recent market run-up brought us to just over $2.4M invested as of COB Thurs.  This last $100k took almost 3 months (cue world's smallest violin).  Closing out the year at $2.5M may be a stretch, but is certainty feasible.

I didn't pay attention to the markets at all for the past couple months (practice for FIRE?).  We ended the year at about $2.425M invested.  I was hoping for $2.5M, but going up $425k in 2021 isn't worth complaining about.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on January 03, 2022, 09:28:54 AM

Liquid investments grew 34% this year (+ $490k) and now I am closing in on $2 Mil with only them, ignoring my house ($400k), my pension (maybe worth $600k), or the GF (her TSP is just shy of $2Mil as well).  The pension haircut goes away at the end of this year and will almost double in value.  Oh, just survive one more year.... and then Fat FIRE here I come.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2KidFIRE on January 03, 2022, 11:03:24 AM

EOY Invested Assets
2017 - $1.76M
2018 - $1.80M (+2.2%)
2019 - $2.56M (+42.2%)
2020 - $3.20M (+24.9%)
2021 - $3.96M (+23.6%)

Clearly 2021 was a great year for the markets.  My wife left her job at the end of September in 2021 and I'm planning to do the same at some point in 2022; probably no later than the end of May.  Happy New Year everyone!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 03, 2022, 06:27:25 PM

Wow, this forum definitely seems to be more about FI (fat FI, if we're being honest) than ER.  I monitor the annual FIRE cohort threads and there are a smattering of pullers of ripcords, but ultimately it seems like buffering the stache OMY is the predominant name of the game.

Not criticizing, just pointing it out because others have been annoyed at my lack of ER at various points in my journey...  to each their own, it's nice MMM'ers are getting good options these days.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 03, 2022, 06:38:45 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 03, 2022, 06:27:25 PM

Wow, this forum definitely seems to be more about FI (fat FI, if we're being honest) than ER.  I monitor the annual FIRE cohort threads and there are a smattering of pullers of ripcords, but ultimately it seems like buffering the stache OMY is the predominant name of the game.

Not criticizing, just pointing it out because others have been annoyed at my lack of ER at various points in my journey...  to each their own, it's nice MMM'ers are getting good options these days.

Yeah I’m my quest for early retirement, it actually gave me perspective to enjoy the journey, and to understand that I’ll prob never truly retire, but change how I work going forward. For the past 25 years I’ve work for three corporations and would have been very uncomfortable with unpaid time off or jumping around gigs. Going forward I see the opposite, hopefully shorter gigs and a good amount of time off in between. Or so I hope. And doing gigs I really enjoy. Or maybe I’ll be a house husband and do house projects while the spouse keeps working.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 03, 2022, 08:29:36 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 03, 2022, 06:27:25 PM

Wow, this forum definitely seems to be more about FI (fat FI, if we're being honest) than ER.  I monitor the annual FIRE cohort threads and there are a smattering of pullers of ripcords, but ultimately it seems like buffering the stache OMY is the predominant name of the game.

Not criticizing, just pointing it out because others have been annoyed at my lack of ER at various points in my journey...  to each their own, it's nice MMM'ers are getting good options these days.

This THREAD is more about fat FIRE than lean FIRE, that's for sure.   Not sure you could generalize it to the MMM population at large.   OMY is a reasonable compromise before taking such a big, important step.   It gets a bit silly after 3 times, but emotions are what they are.

ER wasn't an option for us.  I was 55 when I found MMM and my wife was 65.   

We had to be EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA secure in our FIRE choices because we have a mentally handicapped daughter who simply cannot take care of herself, so if we get it wrong, she's the innocent one who pays for our mistake.   So, multiple safety margins were a must for us.

Our original plan was for a spend of about $60K per year and an income of (approximately, from memory, 'cause I'm not going to go back to 2012 and dig thru my journal):

 $32K social security
 $20K rental home income
 $28K stock income
===================
=$80K

That way, we would have plenty of buffer just in case, because we were saving for two retirement periods, one for the 3 of us and one for our daughter after we both died.

Not LeanFIRE but not crazy high levels of Fat FIRE either.  A good, solid, middle-class income with a paid off house and cars.

A year before we planned to FIRE, we reached a net worth of $1M, which included our paid off home at $120k, three rental homes (2 rent-ready), and the rest in stocks and bonds.  We wanted to get that 3rd home rent-ready, pick up a fourth and renovate it, replace our beaters with newer cars, and pad the stash a bit more   That would put us within a year of my wife filing for her max SS at age 70.

Then my mom died and we doubled our net worth overnight.   That's how we got into this group so quickly instead of it taking many years for the stock component to grow and the property to appreciate in value.

But hey, we weren't going to toss that financial gain away.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 04, 2022, 12:09:59 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 03, 2022, 06:38:45 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 03, 2022, 06:27:25 PM

Wow, this forum definitely seems to be more about FI (fat FI, if we're being honest) than ER.  I monitor the annual FIRE cohort threads and there are a smattering of pullers of ripcords, but ultimately it seems like buffering the stache OMY is the predominant name of the game.

Not criticizing, just pointing it out because others have been annoyed at my lack of ER at various points in my journey...  to each their own, it's nice MMM'ers are getting good options these days.

Yeah I’m my quest for early retirement, it actually gave me perspective to enjoy the journey, and to understand that I’ll prob never truly retire, but change how I work going forward. For the past 25 years I’ve work for three corporations and would have been very uncomfortable with unpaid time off or jumping around gigs. Going forward I see the opposite, hopefully shorter gigs and a good amount of time off in between. Or so I hope. And doing gigs I really enjoy. Or maybe I’ll be a house husband and do house projects while the spouse keeps working.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Its a curious change in thought process over recent years that strikes me.

Back in 2014 I had just over $1M liquid and retired shortly after that. Today we are at $3.1M liquid. Didn't do anything to get to this fat fire place.. It just happened.

I am still frugal because  always have been and have just taken a 6 month contract job.. I certainly don't need the money but the opportunity to add a little more to the stash is just too hard a temptation to pass up.

I find myself behaving in way that made sense at $1M, but really do not at $3M... Like do we fly internationally in Business class.. Heck no, but we could, so why don't we?

Why am I back at work?.. certainly don't have to be. I think lifelong habits just take a while to change perhaps.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 04, 2022, 01:33:50 PM

Dude, you totally love a challenge.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2KidFIRE on January 04, 2022, 02:41:39 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 03, 2022, 06:27:25 PM

Wow, this forum definitely seems to be more about FI (fat FI, if we're being honest) than ER.  I monitor the annual FIRE cohort threads and there are a smattering of pullers of ripcords, but ultimately it seems like buffering the stache OMY is the predominant name of the game.

Not criticizing, just pointing it out because others have been annoyed at my lack of ER at various points in my journey...  to each their own, it's nice MMM'ers are getting good options these days.

I agree with @SwordGuy that any discussion in a "$2-4M +" thread is going to mostly consist of folks in the Chubby-to-Fat FIRE range.  Unless you're in a VHCOL area it would be hard not to fall into one of those groups with that kind of stache.

I also think there are different interpretations of RE.  For some if you're before age 60 then you've made it, where for others if you're still working past 35 than you didn't really RE.  My wife and I are in our late 30's/early 40's and are looking to retire this year, and I would definitely consider us to be RE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 04, 2022, 03:36:46 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 04, 2022, 12:09:59 PM

I am still frugal because  always have been and have just taken a 6 month contract job.. I certainly don't need the money but the opportunity to add a little more to the stash is just too hard a temptation to pass up.

I have been receiving weekly calls from my old company asking me to come back for a short term gig but I have found it easy to hold firm.

I will be turning 60 this year and I am finding myself increasingly more protective of my time. My dad definitely started showing signs of Alzheimer's by age 80...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 04, 2022, 03:53:57 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 04, 2022, 03:36:46 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 04, 2022, 12:09:59 PM

I am still frugal because  always have been and have just taken a 6 month contract job.. I certainly don't need the money but the opportunity to add a little more to the stash is just too hard a temptation to pass up.

I have been receiving weekly calls from my old company asking me to come back for a short term gig but I have found it easy to hold firm.

I will be turning 60 this year and I am finding myself increasingly more protective of my time. My dad definitely started showing signs of Alzheimer's by age 80...

Yes comparing money with life expectancy is a real thing at 60...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on January 04, 2022, 07:03:30 PM

I can't FIRE.  I turn 65 this month.  That ain't early.  DW and I know we could retire right now.  Mostly a psychological barrier from a life of saving and paying our own way (like college for both of us).  I do know I'm FI.  Someday the R will come.  The E went by years ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on January 04, 2022, 07:46:38 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 04, 2022, 07:03:30 PM

I can't FIRE.  I turn 65 this month.  That ain't early.  DW and I know we could retire right now.  Mostly a psychological barrier from a life of saving and paying our own way (like college for both of us).  I do know I'm FI.  Someday the R will come.  The E went by years ago.

Well, if you have to give up one thing - E is the obvious choice!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on January 04, 2022, 08:17:17 PM

Sitting in Costa Rica for a couple of weeks.  Life is good. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 04, 2022, 09:23:04 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 04, 2022, 07:03:30 PM

I can't FIRE.  I turn 65 this month.  That ain't early.  DW and I know we could retire right now.  Mostly a psychological barrier from a life of saving and paying our own way (like college for both of us).  I do know I'm FI.  Someday the R will come.  The E went by years ago.

Nope - You are still early.  You have to be about 66 and 6 months for normal Social Security at 100 percent.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on January 05, 2022, 07:37:45 AM

 I was just looking at some old files and realized the value of our invested assets increased an average of 20% for 2019-2021 for a total increase of $1.7M. That is ridiculous. There is some savings and contributions in there, but the strong majority was just market returns. 
Surely the markets will right themselves at some point? Honestly it doesn't even matter anymore when/if it does. A 30% hit to our portfolio now means that we go from spending 2.57% of the portfolio to 4%. More than 30% correction and we might have work to cut some expenses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: trashtalk on January 05, 2022, 09:18:59 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 05, 2022, 07:37:45 AM

Surely the markets will right themselves at some point? Honestly it doesn't even matter anymore when/if it does. A 30% hit to our portfolio now means that we go from spending 2.57% of the portfolio to 4%. More than 30% correction and we might have work to cut some expenses.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/3e477862528b0f53638e5bdaac9ed7ff.jpg)

I don’t know what’s going to happen but it’s been a looooong push upward.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on January 05, 2022, 09:46:24 AM

Quote from: G-dog on January 04, 2022, 07:46:38 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 04, 2022, 07:03:30 PM

I can't FIRE.  I turn 65 this month.  That ain't early.  DW and I know we could retire right now.  Mostly a psychological barrier from a life of saving and paying our own way (like college for both of us).  I do know I'm FI.  Someday the R will come.  The E went by years ago.

Well, if you have to give up one thing - E is the obvious choice!

Both the stash and the birthdays just keep rolling along.   The Early part flies by in the blink of an eye.  And then the rest flies by at an even faster pace.  My older relatives used to muse about fast the years roll by.   I was in my 30's, they were 70+.   At the time, I listened politely.   Those conversations held no real meaning.  Now, I understand and relate.   We do not know when our tenure here is up. 

I have yet another dear friend who has been diagnosed with advanced cancer.   She's 61.  Not terribly young, but certainly not old either.   I'm a cancer survivor myself, and but for the Grace of God I might not be here.  Life is a gift. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 05, 2022, 09:49:35 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 05, 2022, 07:37:45 AM

I was just looking at some old files and realized the value of our invested assets increased an average of 20% for 2019-2021 for a total increase of $1.7M. That is ridiculous. There is some savings and contributions in there, but the strong majority was just market returns. 
Surely the markets will right themselves at some point? Honestly it doesn't even matter anymore when/if it does. A 30% hit to our portfolio now means that we go from spending 2.57% of the portfolio to 4%. More than 30% correction and we might have work to cut some expenses.

I wonder if your hit will come from the other direction.  There's a lot of noise about inflation.  Governments around the globe have increased the amount of money in recent years.  Wise people have told me that there are many factors that cause inflation, but wise people have also told me that the money supply thing is one of them.  I'm just saying that even if your stocks stay up at stratospheric value, you may be effectively penalized by all the stuff you need to spend money on.

The markets may be right now and the price of everything else is going to rise to match.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 05, 2022, 12:36:10 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 04, 2022, 07:03:30 PM

I can't FIRE.  I turn 65 this month.  That ain't early.  DW and I know we could retire right now.  Mostly a psychological barrier from a life of saving and paying our own way (like college for both of us).  I do know I'm FI.  Someday the R will come.  The E went by years ago.

65 could be considered an early retirement if you turn out to live to 112 like this guy - https://www.klfy.com/louisiana/oldest-wwii-veteran-a-louisiana-man-dies-at-112-years-old/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 05, 2022, 02:13:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 05, 2022, 12:36:10 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 04, 2022, 07:03:30 PM

I can't FIRE.  I turn 65 this month.  That ain't early.  DW and I know we could retire right now.  Mostly a psychological barrier from a life of saving and paying our own way (like college for both of us).  I do know I'm FI.  Someday the R will come.  The E went by years ago.

65 could be considered an early retirement if you turn out to live to 112 like this guy - https://www.klfy.com/louisiana/oldest-wwii-veteran-a-louisiana-man-dies-at-112-years-old/

Wow!  Drafted at 31.  I was surprised to see that they drafted men up to the age of 45 for WW2.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on January 05, 2022, 05:46:55 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 04, 2022, 09:23:04 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 04, 2022, 07:03:30 PM

I can't FIRE.  I turn 65 this month.  That ain't early.  DW and I know we could retire right now.  Mostly a psychological barrier from a life of saving and paying our own way (like college for both of us).  I do know I'm FI.  Someday the R will come.  The E went by years ago.

Nope - You are still early.  You have to be about 66 and 6 months for normal Social Security at 100 percent.

Yes -- what @pecunia said.....for me, full Social Security eligibility is age 67.  Soon it will be up to 70+.   

The FIRE movement is a diverse group -- from people who retire at 36 with $750K and plan on living on $25-30K per year to folks who fat FIRE at 65 with millions.  I'm somewhere closer to the latter (target 56-57);  I could never convince myself to do the former, but hey to each their own.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 05, 2022, 07:42:31 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 24, 2019, 03:12:19 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 01:25:38 PM

Quote from: pecunia on November 24, 2019, 12:56:31 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on November 24, 2019, 12:32:42 PM

- SNIP -

You cannot avoid making money unless you stuff it all in cash under the mattress..:)

It is hard too sleep on that lumpy mattress.

Right?.. You'd hit your head on the ceiling..:)

A stack of one million, $1 bills is 358 feet tall and over a ton.  We could judge our goals in feet.  1000 feet or bust!

Over 1100 feet now.  Shall we go for 1500 feet?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 05, 2022, 08:32:12 PM

Quote from: arcturus on January 05, 2022, 05:46:55 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 04, 2022, 09:23:04 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 04, 2022, 07:03:30 PM

I can't FIRE.  I turn 65 this month.  That ain't early.  DW and I know we could retire right now.  Mostly a psychological barrier from a life of saving and paying our own way (like college for both of us).  I do know I'm FI.  Someday the R will come.  The E went by years ago.

Nope - You are still early.  You have to be about 66 and 6 months for normal Social Security at 100 percent.

Yes -- what @pecunia said.....for me, full Social Security eligibility is age 67.  Soon it will be up to 70+.   

The FIRE movement is a diverse group -- from people who retire at 36 with $750K and plan on living on $25-30K per year to folks who fat FIRE at 65 with millions.  I'm somewhere closer to the latter (target 56-57);  I could never convince myself to do the former, but hey to each their own.

Something recent (in church-lady (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHyW0N5f7zQ) voice, hmmmmmm Trump maybe?) makes me think Social Security will continue to be underfunded and cut in the future as opposed to raising Federal taxes to bridge the shortfall...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 05, 2022, 08:56:16 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 05, 2022, 08:32:12 PM

Quote from: arcturus on January 05, 2022, 05:46:55 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 04, 2022, 09:23:04 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 04, 2022, 07:03:30 PM

I can't FIRE.  I turn 65 this month.  That ain't early.  DW and I know we could retire right now.  Mostly a psychological barrier from a life of saving and paying our own way (like college for both of us).  I do know I'm FI.  Someday the R will come.  The E went by years ago.

Nope - You are still early.  You have to be about 66 and 6 months for normal Social Security at 100 percent.

Yes -- what @pecunia said.....for me, full Social Security eligibility is age 67.  Soon it will be up to 70+.   

The FIRE movement is a diverse group -- from people who retire at 36 with $750K and plan on living on $25-30K per year to folks who fat FIRE at 65 with millions.  I'm somewhere closer to the latter (target 56-57);  I could never convince myself to do the former, but hey to each their own.

Something recent (in church-lady (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHyW0N5f7zQ) voice, hmmmmmm Trump maybe?) makes me think Social Security will continue to be underfunded and cut in the future as opposed to raising Federal taxes to bridge the shortfall...

I think you are right.  Today's Republicans have a strong libertarian characteristic.  I believe when Trump was president they underfunded some federal agencies.  Then they couldn't do their assigned job.  Then the republican politicians could point at the agencies as examples of ineffective government.   Denying funds for Social Security would hurt a lot of people in the final stages of their lives.

I guess they would then point at the ineffectiveness of Social Security and go back to attempting privatization of all retirement.

It's a vicious cycle.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 05, 2022, 09:23:04 PM

The Republican covid policies have culled the social security rolls and will continue to do so for some years.  Not my choice on how to make Social Security solvent, but then again, I have a heart.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 06, 2022, 06:58:00 AM

Quote from: arcturus on January 05, 2022, 05:46:55 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 04, 2022, 09:23:04 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on January 04, 2022, 07:03:30 PM

I can't FIRE.  I turn 65 this month.  That ain't early.  DW and I know we could retire right now.  Mostly a psychological barrier from a life of saving and paying our own way (like college for both of us).  I do know I'm FI.  Someday the R will come.  The E went by years ago.

Nope - You are still early.  You have to be about 66 and 6 months for normal Social Security at 100 percent.

Yes -- what @pecunia said.....for me, full Social Security eligibility is age 67.  Soon it will be up to 70+.   
'm somewhere closer to the latter (target 56-57);  I could never convince myself to do the former, but hey to each their own.

For anyone born after 1960, full retirement age is 67 and will stay at 67 under current law into the future - there are no scheduled changes beyond the move from 65 to 67 that has been ongoing gradually for the last few years - e.g. my FRA is 66 years 10 months, birth year 1959.  To change 'full retirement age' would require the law to change.  Not to say it won't, but saying 'soon it will be up to 70+' is a stretch at best.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on January 06, 2022, 08:47:21 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 05, 2022, 09:23:04 PM

The Republican covid policies have culled the social security rolls and will continue to do so for some years.  Not my choice on how to make Social Security solvent, but then again, I have a heart.

There are now a lot more dependent children payouts coming out for the orphans, and eventually there going to be disability payouts for long Covid victims, so time will tell what the net hit to US Social Security ends up being.

Edit to add: Small sample of the 5 people I knew personally who passed away from Covid -- 4 were in prime working years and still working full time/contributing to SS, only 1 was retirement age and no longer contributing.  Between those 5 people, there are 3 children of various ages who will be receiving payments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on January 06, 2022, 08:56:43 AM

Quote from: Turtle on January 06, 2022, 08:47:21 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 05, 2022, 09:23:04 PM

The Republican covid policies have culled the social security rolls and will continue to do so for some years.  Not my choice on how to make Social Security solvent, but then again, I have a heart.

There are now a lot more dependent children payouts coming out for the orphans, and eventually there going to be disability payouts for long Covid victims, so time will tell what the net hit to US Social Security ends up being.

IIRC dependent payouts for a family are limited to 150-200% of the earner's full retirement benefit and stop at age 16 or when the child leaves or graduates from high school.  In most cases that probably means less being paid out overall than for a retiree who lives to a ripe old age. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on January 06, 2022, 09:22:11 AM

Quote from: lhamo on January 06, 2022, 08:56:43 AM

Quote from: Turtle on January 06, 2022, 08:47:21 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 05, 2022, 09:23:04 PM

The Republican covid policies have culled the social security rolls and will continue to do so for some years.  Not my choice on how to make Social Security solvent, but then again, I have a heart.

There are now a lot more dependent children payouts coming out for the orphans, and eventually there going to be disability payouts for long Covid victims, so time will tell what the net hit to US Social Security ends up being.

IIRC dependent payouts for a family are limited to 150-200% of the earner's full retirement benefit and stop at age 16 or when the child leaves or graduates from high school.  In most cases that probably means less being paid out overall than for a retiree who lives to a ripe old age.

I was just going to chime in on this! I have been kind of saying this for a year. A disease that generally kills all the 55+ people and leaves the young relatively unscathed helps SS payouts overall.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 06, 2022, 09:51:41 AM

Quote from: Turtle on January 06, 2022, 08:47:21 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 05, 2022, 09:23:04 PM

The Republican covid policies have culled the social security rolls and will continue to do so for some years.  Not my choice on how to make Social Security solvent, but then again, I have a heart.

There are now a lot more dependent children payouts coming out for the orphans, and eventually there going to be disability payouts for long Covid victims, so time will tell what the net hit to US Social Security ends up being.

Edit to add: Small sample of the 5 people I knew personally who passed away from Covid -- 4 were in prime working years and still working full time/contributing to SS, only 1 was retirement age and no longer contributing.  Between those 5 people, there are 3 children of various ages who will be receiving payments.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply I thought their policy would actually WORK. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 06, 2022, 12:43:34 PM

Quote from: couponvan on January 06, 2022, 09:22:11 AM

Quote from: lhamo on January 06, 2022, 08:56:43 AM

Quote from: Turtle on January 06, 2022, 08:47:21 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 05, 2022, 09:23:04 PM

The Republican covid policies have culled the social security rolls and will continue to do so for some years.  Not my choice on how to make Social Security solvent, but then again, I have a heart.

There are now a lot more dependent children payouts coming out for the orphans, and eventually there going to be disability payouts for long Covid victims, so time will tell what the net hit to US Social Security ends up being.

IIRC dependent payouts for a family are limited to 150-200% of the earner's full retirement benefit and stop at age 16 or when the child leaves or graduates from high school.  In most cases that probably means less being paid out overall than for a retiree who lives to a ripe old age.

I was just going to chime in on this! I have been kind of saying this for a year. A disease that generally kills all the 55+ people and leaves the young relatively unscathed helps SS payouts overall.

That may be true, but doesn’t apply to Covid. Personal income took a big hit during the pandemic despite massive government help, and I think the SSA initial analysis was that pandemic-related reduced contributions were more or less a wash of the Covid-related increased mortality.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on January 06, 2022, 05:57:55 PM

Updated the spreadsheet.

• Dec 2019 - $2.4M
• Dec 2020 - $3.0M
• Dec 2021 - $3.6M

This is investable assets. It does not include house equity, 529s, our our brand-new DAF.

Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: trashtalk on January 06, 2022, 09:07:04 PM

I’ve noticed that some posters in this thread are having to cut out certain assets (like value of primary residence, for example) to fit their net worth in the parameters of this thread.

If anyone’s interested, I created a successor thread:

Race from $5M to $10M…and Beyond (https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=111053&share_tid=125898&url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Emrmoneymustache%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D125898&share_type=t&link_source=app)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on January 06, 2022, 09:17:32 PM

Quote from: trashtalk on January 06, 2022, 09:07:04 PM

I’ve noticed that some posters in this thread are having to cut out certain assets (like value of primary residence, for example) to fit their net worth in the parameters of this thread.

If anyone’s interested, I created a successor thread:

Race from $5M to $10M…and Beyond (https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=111053&share_tid=125898&url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Emrmoneymustache%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D125898&share_type=t&link_source=app)

I’m not sure if that was directed at me or not. In case it was I don’t cut out assets to stay in this cool kids’ club but rather because my spreadsheet doesn’t track bike equity over time. I also don’t consider the 529s or DAF as our money; it is other people’s money that we manage.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 06, 2022, 09:29:36 PM

Quote from: trashtalk on January 06, 2022, 09:07:04 PM

I’ve noticed that some posters in this thread are having to cut out certain assets (like value of primary residence, for example) to fit their net worth in the parameters of this thread.

If anyone’s interested, I created a successor thread:

Race from $5M to $10M…and Beyond (https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=111053&share_tid=125898&url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Emrmoneymustache%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D125898&share_type=t&link_source=app)

Can't really say that's needed.   "... and Beyond!"  is good enough to cover everyone.

At historical average rates of return for both land/homes and our stock/bond portfolio, we'll hit that $5M club in about 2033.

No rush, we're happily retired and have plenty and to spare.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on January 06, 2022, 09:44:59 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 06, 2022, 09:29:36 PM

Quote from: trashtalk on January 06, 2022, 09:07:04 PM

I’ve noticed that some posters in this thread are having to cut out certain assets (like value of primary residence, for example) to fit their net worth in the parameters of this thread.

If anyone’s interested, I created a successor thread:

Race from $5M to $10M…and Beyond (https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=111053&share_tid=125898&url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Emrmoneymustache%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D125898&share_type=t&link_source=app)

Can't really say that's needed.   "... and Beyond!"  is good enough to cover everyone.

At historical average rates of return for both land/homes and our stock/bond portfolio, we'll hit that $5M club in about 2033.

No rush, we're happily retired and have plenty and to spare.

Other prior ...and beyond threads have been started, but typically peter out.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-to-$5-million/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-to-$/     and at least one more that I cant find at the moment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 07, 2022, 03:42:39 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 06, 2022, 09:29:36 PM

Quote from: trashtalk on January 06, 2022, 09:07:04 PM

I’ve noticed that some posters in this thread are having to cut out certain assets (like value of primary residence, for example) to fit their net worth in the parameters of this thread.

If anyone’s interested, I created a successor thread:

Race from $5M to $10M…and Beyond (https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=111053&share_tid=125898&url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Emrmoneymustache%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D125898&share_type=t&link_source=app)

Can't really say that's needed.   "... and Beyond!"  is good enough to cover everyone.

At historical average rates of return for both land/homes and our stock/bond portfolio, we'll hit that $5M club in about 2033.

No rush, we're happily retired and have plenty and to spare.

Yup - as a happily retired "beyonder", I agree :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 07, 2022, 08:07:27 AM

What would I do if I trod through the wasteland of the beyond to reach the 5 million dollar mark?  Would it be like the Spaniards discovering El Dorado?  Would I travel the world seeing the seven wonders of the world?  Would I scuba dive the Great barrier reef?  Would I buy a ticket on Jeff Bezos rocket?

I'd probably just pay more taxes and clean snow from the driveway.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: trashtalk on January 07, 2022, 08:58:08 AM

Quote from: ysette9 on January 06, 2022, 09:17:32 PM

Quote from: trashtalk on January 06, 2022, 09:07:04 PM

I’ve noticed that some posters in this thread are having to cut out certain assets (like value of primary residence, for example) to fit their net worth in the parameters of this thread.

If anyone’s interested, I created a successor thread:

Race from $5M to $10M…and Beyond (https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=111053&share_tid=125898&url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Emrmoneymustache%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D125898&share_type=t&link_source=app)

I’m not sure if that was directed at me or not. In case it was I don’t cut out assets to stay in this cool kids’ club but rather because my spreadsheet doesn’t track bike equity over time. I also don’t consider the 529s or DAF as our money; it is other people’s money that we manage.

Totally wasn’t meant to pick on you specifically, yours was one that caught my attention after noticing it for a while. There are more on the “net worth increase” thread where if you read between the lines the person has to be worth 5M, 6M, 7M, or will be in very short order.

I think my overall instinct is “this stuff works — if you do mustachian living and investing long enough, the gains become almost inevitable and pretty soon you’re talking real money LOL.”

My thought was that if you are fortunate enough to be in “and beyond” territory, there may be a sense of isolation or survivor’s guilt, or just unique structural issues, that could be ameliorated by supportive online community.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 07, 2022, 10:54:23 AM

Quote from: trashtalk on January 07, 2022, 08:58:08 AM

My thought was that if you are fortunate enough to be in “and beyond” territory, there may be a sense of isolation or survivor’s guilt, or just unique structural issues, that could be ameliorated by supportive online community.

We already have one, right here. We are a supportive online community.

This is a forum in support of "Financial Independence " and "Retiring Early". If you notice, some folks get a lot of shit for amassing large numbers and still not pulling the trigger.

That you are promoting another level suggests you're missing the point of FIRE entirely.

ETA: or you're a troll.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 07, 2022, 11:55:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 07, 2022, 10:54:23 AM

Quote from: trashtalk on January 07, 2022, 08:58:08 AM

My thought was that if you are fortunate enough to be in “and beyond” territory, there may be a sense of isolation or survivor’s guilt, or just unique structural issues, that could be ameliorated by supportive online community.

We already have one, right here. We are a supportive online community.

This is a forum in support of "Financial Independence " and "Retiring Early". If you notice, some folks get a lot of shit for amassing large numbers and still not pulling the trigger.

That you are promoting another level suggests you're missing the point of FIRE entirely.

ETA: or you're a troll.

Or amassing moderate and numbers and then going back to work!..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 07, 2022, 12:17:24 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 07, 2022, 11:55:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 07, 2022, 10:54:23 AM

Quote from: trashtalk on January 07, 2022, 08:58:08 AM

My thought was that if you are fortunate enough to be in “and beyond” territory, there may be a sense of isolation or survivor’s guilt, or just unique structural issues, that could be ameliorated by supportive online community.

We already have one, right here. We are a supportive online community.

This is a forum in support of "Financial Independence " and "Retiring Early". If you notice, some folks get a lot of shit for amassing large numbers and still not pulling the trigger.

That you are promoting another level suggests you're missing the point of FIRE entirely.

ETA: or you're a troll.

Or amassing moderate and numbers and then going back to work!..:)

I may or may not have been thinking of you when I wrote that. But there are also others...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 07, 2022, 12:26:45 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 07, 2022, 12:17:24 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 07, 2022, 11:55:20 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 07, 2022, 10:54:23 AM

Quote from: trashtalk on January 07, 2022, 08:58:08 AM

My thought was that if you are fortunate enough to be in “and beyond” territory, there may be a sense of isolation or survivor’s guilt, or just unique structural issues, that could be ameliorated by supportive online community.

We already have one, right here. We are a supportive online community.

This is a forum in support of "Financial Independence " and "Retiring Early". If you notice, some folks get a lot of shit for amassing large numbers and still not pulling the trigger.

That you are promoting another level suggests you're missing the point of FIRE entirely.

ETA: or you're a troll.

Or amassing moderate and numbers and then going back to work!..:)

I may or may not have been thinking of you when I wrote that. But there are also others...

Traitors to the cause.. All of them..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: texxan1 on January 08, 2022, 02:34:56 AM

EOY update

Liquid assetts- 2.95m


Target was 3, but took out 190k for a business deal.

My former side hustle ( ice vending machines, has now taken OFF). i own 9 now, instead of two and yes it requries work... Like ordering things and paperwork... Kid that works for me does the rest.

should bring me alot of mailbox money over the years....

Lets hope 2022 takes me to 4m

Cheers
Tex

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 08, 2022, 07:10:59 AM

Quote from: texxan1 on January 08, 2022, 02:34:56 AM

EOY update

Liquid assetts- 2.95m


Target was 3, but took out 190k for a business deal.

My former side hustle ( ice vending machines, has now taken OFF). i own 9 now, instead of two and yes it requries work... Like ordering things and paperwork... Kid that works for me does the rest.

should bring me alot of mailbox money over the years....

Lets hope 2022 takes me to 4m

Cheers
Tex

Smart people out there - I read Warren Buffett  got started with vending machines.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 08, 2022, 02:42:52 PM

Inspired by this and other threads, DH and I did a little back-of-the-envelope math today. It seems our investments earned about $425 a day in 2021. Yup, money we didn't have to lift a finger to earn. Sweet!

If we count our RE appreciation, it's probably more than double that, but we know that shit's not real or sustainable, lol!

For no rational reason, DH is a little nervous about pulling the retirement ripcord this year, so this was a fun exercise.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 08, 2022, 03:47:03 PM

If we exclude the crazy-high spending this year that was either one-off or very infrequent in nature, our wealth would have gone up $1080 a day.   As it is, it ONLY went up $860 a day.

That's after subtracting out normal expenses.

It's simply awesome.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 08, 2022, 05:14:33 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 08, 2022, 02:42:52 PM

Inspired by this and other threads, DH and I did a little back-of-the-envelope math today. It seems our investments earned about $425 a day in 2021. Yup, money we didn't have to lift a finger to earn. Sweet!

If we count our RE appreciation, it's probably more than double that, but we know that shit's not real or sustainable, lol!

For no rational reason, DH is a little nervous about pulling the retirement ripcord this year, so this was a fun exercise.

It costs a lot more to live in the Bay area.  I can see having to work a little longer in a place like that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 08, 2022, 05:43:03 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 08, 2022, 05:14:33 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 08, 2022, 02:42:52 PM

Inspired by this and other threads, DH and I did a little back-of-the-envelope math today. It seems our investments earned about $425 a day in 2021. Yup, money we didn't have to lift a finger to earn. Sweet!

If we count our RE appreciation, it's probably more than double that, but we know that shit's not real or sustainable, lol!

For no rational reason, DH is a little nervous about pulling the retirement ripcord this year, so this was a fun exercise.

It costs a lot more to live in the Bay area.  I can see having to work a little longer in a place like that.

He took this job for the Defined Benefit Pension, which includes COLA and a healthcare stipend. He needed to hit 20 years, which he did last May. He's just struggling a bit with the idea of a reduced paycheck. Yes, Bay Area COLA (especially property taxes) are part of his hesitation, but mostly it's not really rational fear.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 09, 2022, 06:01:53 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 08, 2022, 03:47:03 PM

If we exclude the crazy-high spending this year that was either one-off or very infrequent in nature, our wealth would have gone up $1080 a day.   As it is, it ONLY went up $860 a day.

That's after subtracting out normal expenses.

It's simply awesome.

Our liquid NW increased $1450 a day in 2021.  Hard to believe that was possible.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 20, 2022, 08:25:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 09, 2022, 06:01:53 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 08, 2022, 03:47:03 PM

If we exclude the crazy-high spending this year that was either one-off or very infrequent in nature, our wealth would have gone up $1080 a day.   As it is, it ONLY went up $860 a day.

That's after subtracting out normal expenses.

It's simply awesome.

Our liquid NW increased $1450 a day in 2021.  Hard to believe that was possible.

Now the question is how much have you given back since the first of the year? Looks like we cant keep a bounce, see what happens today.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 20, 2022, 09:51:41 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 20, 2022, 08:25:33 AM

Now the question is how much have you given back since the first of the year? Looks like we cant keep a bounce, see what happens today.

I'm hoping for a deep, deep drop for the next few weeks.   Had to rollover a 401k to an IRA and the paper check is in the mail to Vanguard.  A big drop for a few weeks would make us a pretty penny when prices recover.

All of which means the top is not yet in.  Bound to be a huge spike that will drive up the price on the day it converts back to shares.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 20, 2022, 11:22:34 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 20, 2022, 08:25:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 09, 2022, 06:01:53 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 08, 2022, 03:47:03 PM

If we exclude the crazy-high spending this year that was either one-off or very infrequent in nature, our wealth would have gone up $1080 a day.   As it is, it ONLY went up $860 a day.

That's after subtracting out normal expenses.

It's simply awesome.

Our liquid NW increased $1450 a day in 2021.  Hard to believe that was possible.

Now the question is how much have you given back since the first of the year? Looks like we cant keep a bounce, see what happens today.

That's what is most crazy about these numbers to me now. One answer to your question is my LNW is down 2.9% YTD, an insignificant move for an equity heavy investment portfolio.  Another answer is $110k, which seems like an extremely significant amount of money ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 20, 2022, 11:27:06 AM

Yep, the S&P 500 is down to prices we haven't seen for 3 months, when those same prices were glorious highs to celebrate...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 20, 2022, 08:59:55 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 20, 2022, 08:25:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 09, 2022, 06:01:53 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 08, 2022, 03:47:03 PM

If we exclude the crazy-high spending this year that was either one-off or very infrequent in nature, our wealth would have gone up $1080 a day.   As it is, it ONLY went up $860 a day.

That's after subtracting out normal expenses.

It's simply awesome.

Our liquid NW increased $1450 a day in 2021.  Hard to believe that was possible.

Now the question is how much have you given back since the first of the year? Looks like we cant keep a bounce, see what happens today.

From the most recent highpoint, down $132K. It won't stay that way.  If there is one thing I believe in, it's American greed.  I'm still working and still buying.    I was within 300K of my mid 2023 goal and now I'm 450K from that goal.  There is still over 3 million invested.  That was the goal a year ago. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 20, 2022, 09:31:42 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 20, 2022, 08:59:55 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 20, 2022, 08:25:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 09, 2022, 06:01:53 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 08, 2022, 03:47:03 PM

If we exclude the crazy-high spending this year that was either one-off or very infrequent in nature, our wealth would have gone up $1080 a day.   As it is, it ONLY went up $860 a day.

That's after subtracting out normal expenses.

It's simply awesome.

Our liquid NW increased $1450 a day in 2021.  Hard to believe that was possible.

Now the question is how much have you given back since the first of the year? Looks like we cant keep a bounce, see what happens today.

From the most recent highpoint, down $132K. It won't stay that way.  If there is one thing I believe in, it's American greed.  I'm still working and still buying.    I was within 300K of my mid 2023 goal and now I'm 450K from that goal.  There is still over 3 million invested.  That was the goal a year ago.

You sound like J L Collins.  "The Stock Market always goes up."  Sometimes, you just have to wait a bit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PhrugalPhan on January 20, 2022, 09:33:39 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 20, 2022, 08:25:33 AM

Now the question is how much have you given back since the first of the year? Looks like we cant keep a bounce, see what happens today.

I did a $30k Roth rollover today in my 457 plan.  Hopefully I hit the low point for the year - maybe I will be lucky???

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 20, 2022, 10:35:54 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 20, 2022, 09:31:42 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 20, 2022, 08:59:55 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 20, 2022, 08:25:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 09, 2022, 06:01:53 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 08, 2022, 03:47:03 PM

If we exclude the crazy-high spending this year that was either one-off or very infrequent in nature, our wealth would have gone up $1080 a day.   As it is, it ONLY went up $860 a day.

That's after subtracting out normal expenses.

It's simply awesome.

Our liquid NW increased $1450 a day in 2021.  Hard to believe that was possible.

Now the question is how much have you given back since the first of the year? Looks like we cant keep a bounce, see what happens today.

From the most recent highpoint, down $132K. It won't stay that way.  If there is one thing I believe in, it's American greed.  I'm still working and still buying.    I was within 300K of my mid 2023 goal and now I'm 450K from that goal.  There is still over 3 million invested.  That was the goal a year ago.

You sound like J L Collins.  "The Stock Market always goes up."  Sometimes, you just have to wait a bit.

Yep.  I love JL.  When sitting at 2M the goal was 2.5M.  At 2.5M it became 3M.  At 3M it became 3.5M
The market just kept moving the goal posts.  The end date is set, May 15 of 2023.  I doubt I'll have to wait because of money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 21, 2022, 09:49:22 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 20, 2022, 10:35:54 PM

When sitting at 2M the goal was 2.5M.  At 2.5M it became 3M.  At 3M it became 3.5M
The market just kept moving the goal posts.  The end date is set, May 15 of 2023.  I doubt I'll have to wait because of money.

We all witnessed those goalposts being moved in this thread and I'm pretty darn sure it wasn't the market doing the moving of them...   :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 21, 2022, 10:37:54 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 21, 2022, 09:49:22 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 20, 2022, 10:35:54 PM

When sitting at 2M the goal was 2.5M.  At 2.5M it became 3M.  At 3M it became 3.5M
The market just kept moving the goal posts.  The end date is set, May 15 of 2023.  I doubt I'll have to wait because of money.

We all witnessed those goalposts being moved in this thread and I'm pretty darn sure it wasn't the market doing the moving of them...   :)

LOL.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 21, 2022, 03:58:54 PM

I am hopping to do some tax loss harvesting come Feb 1.  Can’t do it now because I reinvested dividends on 12/31.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 22, 2022, 03:38:12 AM

When it feels like your rolling down the window and throwing 25-40k out the Window a day and not sweating it ,  it kinda feels like a big monopoly game. In any note I am glad I did my balancing right after first of the year before the drop though I would of had to many gains to get down to the 65/35 I like so am at 67/33 BUT getting close to put some of my extra cash to work I have been sitting on and even that I will DCA in. I still have a lot of Projects to get done and now medical bills to pay.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 22, 2022, 09:58:50 AM

Well, you know, I HAVE to get the house upgrades done before pulling the trigger #lifestylecreep.

I am committed to a break tho once my current gig ends. I expect to be phased out at some point given how finance works, so I’ll keep riding the roller coaster until they kick me off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 23, 2022, 01:14:22 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 20, 2022, 09:51:41 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on January 20, 2022, 08:25:33 AM

Now the question is how much have you given back since the first of the year? Looks like we cant keep a bounce, see what happens today.

I'm hoping for a deep, deep drop for the next few weeks.   Had to rollover a 401k to an IRA and the paper check is in the mail to Vanguard.  A big drop for a few weeks would make us a pretty penny when prices recover.

All of which means the top is not yet in.  Bound to be a huge spike that will drive up the price on the day it converts back to shares.

Be careful what you wish for, stocks can stay down for decades. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 23, 2022, 01:35:35 PM

Probably won't make it to $4 mil anytime soon.  Went from 98/2 for the last 5+ years to 55/45 and might go to 50/50 shortly, taking all the gains from March 2020 off the table.  Won't buy the dip as I did early in February and March of 2020.   

This "party" reminds me of a house party years ago, where the police show up at around 12:00 (March 2020) and tell everyone to keep the noise down.  This lasts for about 30 minutes, another neighbor (inflation) calls the police again and at around 1:00 am, everyone sees the cop car out front (January) and knows the party is over.  The smart people, not too drunk (greedy) slink out the back and live to survive another party in the future.  The dumb (greedy) keep drinking and eventually get taken to a drunk tank (sell off).  Police (Fed) could give another warning, but IMHO, the party is over. 

If you are past your goalpost, sell and realize you probably have more cash and equity than you did in March 2020.  I'd sell all equity past the goalpost at a minimum.  If market keeps going up, keep selling.  If the market tanks, you will be thankful the Fed didn't break up the party in March 2020 (S&P @2200) or back in 2009 (S&P 500 @ 700) as they should have after the GFC had passed.  Even at 2100 today S&P 500 would be up 200% in 12 years, which is a great historical return.  At a peak of 4800, S&P 500 was up over 600% from bottom in March of 2009.           

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 23, 2022, 04:02:25 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 23, 2022, 01:35:35 PM

Probably won't make it to $4 mil anytime soon.  Went from 98/2 for the last 5+ years to 55/45 and might go to 50/50 shortly, taking all the gains from March 2020 off the table.  Won't buy the dip as I did early in February and March of 2020.   

This "party" reminds me of a house party years ago, where the police show up at around 12:00 (March 2020) and tell everyone to keep the noise down.  This lasts for about 30 minutes, another neighbor (inflation) calls the police again and at around 1:00 am, everyone sees the cop car out front (January) and knows the party is over.  The smart people, not too drunk (greedy) slink out the back and live to survive another party in the future.  The dumb (greedy) keep drinking and eventually get taken to a drunk tank (sell off).  Police (Fed) could give another warning, but IMHO, the party is over. 

If you are past your goalpost, sell and realize you probably have more cash and equity than you did in March 2020.  I'd sell all equity past the goalpost at a minimum.  If market keeps going up, keep selling.  If the market tanks, you will be thankful the Fed didn't break up the party in March 2020 (S&P @2200) or back in 2009 (S&P 500 @ 700) as they should have after the GFC had passed.  Even at 2100 today S&P 500 would be up 200% in 12 years, which is a great historical return.  At a peak of 4800, S&P 500 was up over 600% from bottom in March of 2009.           

What do advocates of the 4 percent rule say? Should we stay the course with our eyes on a golden horizon?  Should we be happy that we are past the original goalpost?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 23, 2022, 04:39:09 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 23, 2022, 04:02:25 PM

What do advocates of the 4 percent rule say? Should we stay the course with our eyes on a golden horizon?  Should we be happy that we are past the original goalpost?

There are several schools of thought on this.

Some people would advocate for dialing back risk.  You've won the game and all that.

My view is that I can divide my FIRE stash into two piles:  the first pile is money I'll spend in my lifetime, and the second pile is money that I won't get to (because I have more than I need).

While I don't know exactly how much is in pile one, I can make an educated guess and keep that guess updated from time to time.  In fact, I basically take my annual spending rate and multiply by 25 for my estimate.  I invest pile one according to my AA based on my goals, risk profile, planning horizon, etc.

Pile two is money that my kids will get, probably 30 years from now.  Accordingly, this pile is invested in the way that I think will be best for them given that time horizon, their risk profile, etc.

I don't actually physically divide my money, but I do the above math and then can figure out what the overall blended AA should be and make that my target.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 23, 2022, 08:27:39 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 23, 2022, 01:35:35 PM

Probably won't make it to $4 mil anytime soon.  Went from 98/2 for the last 5+ years to 55/45 and might go to 50/50 shortly, taking all the gains from March 2020 off the table.  Won't buy the dip as I did early in February and March of 2020.   

This "party" reminds me of a house party years ago, where the police show up at around 12:00 (March 2020) and tell everyone to keep the noise down.  This lasts for about 30 minutes, another neighbor (inflation) calls the police again and at around 1:00 am, everyone sees the cop car out front (January) and knows the party is over.  The smart people, not too drunk (greedy) slink out the back and live to survive another party in the future.  The dumb (greedy) keep drinking and eventually get taken to a drunk tank (sell off).  Police (Fed) could give another warning, but IMHO, the party is over. 

If you are past your goalpost, sell and realize you probably have more cash and equity than you did in March 2020.  I'd sell all equity past the goalpost at a minimum.  If market keeps going up, keep selling.  If the market tanks, you will be thankful the Fed didn't break up the party in March 2020 (S&P @2200) or back in 2009 (S&P 500 @ 700) as they should have after the GFC had passed.  Even at 2100 today S&P 500 would be up 200% in 12 years, which is a great historical return.  At a peak of 4800, S&P 500 was up over 600% from bottom in March of 2009.           

Nice tale, but I am not convinced that you can time the market so I wont be slinking out the back door and will keep on boozing away.
In any case I dont need to be sober for 5 more years as I have enough cash/ fixed interest deposits to see me until 2027, and my employer has just promised to deliver another keg to the party next month in the form of my 2021 bonus.
Party on!!!
We will see whether I choose rehab or hair of the dog come 2027.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 24, 2022, 05:42:28 AM

Looks like we've dipped ever so slightly below 3 million.  The emergency fund would kick us above, but I don't count emergency funds in the NW, it's in cash and thus worthless.  I've actually enjoyed this little dip.  I'd like to see a bit deeper correction.  Investors, need a little mental adjustment period.  I'm an inflation hawk and would rather see the irrational exuberance quelled than rampant inflation.   We're in our October "low period" range.  Still one third of a million dollars higher than this day last year according to Mint. 
Anyway.  Frost on the ground at our Florida home.  It's a brisk 29 degrees and the sun 🌞 is bright.  Beautiful Monday.  Coffee is brewing and I'm making french toast.  Life is good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on January 24, 2022, 05:48:44 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 23, 2022, 01:35:35 PM

Probably won't make it to $4 mil anytime soon.  Went from 98/2 for the last 5+ years to 55/45 and might go to 50/50 shortly, taking all the gains from March 2020 off the table.  Won't buy the dip as I did early in February and March of 2020.   

This "party" reminds me of a house party years ago, where the police show up at around 12:00 (March 2020) and tell everyone to keep the noise down.  This lasts for about 30 minutes, another neighbor (inflation) calls the police again and at around 1:00 am, everyone sees the cop car out front (January) and knows the party is over.  The smart people, not too drunk (greedy) slink out the back and live to survive another party in the future.  The dumb (greedy) keep drinking and eventually get taken to a drunk tank (sell off).  Police (Fed) could give another warning, but IMHO, the party is over. 

If you are past your goalpost, sell and realize you probably have more cash and equity than you did in March 2020.  I'd sell all equity past the goalpost at a minimum.  If market keeps going up, keep selling.  If the market tanks, you will be thankful the Fed didn't break up the party in March 2020 (S&P @2200) or back in 2009 (S&P 500 @ 700) as they should have after the GFC had passed.  Even at 2100 today S&P 500 would be up 200% in 12 years, which is a great historical return.  At a peak of 4800, S&P 500 was up over 600% from bottom in March of 2009.           

If your past your goalpost it doesn't matter what happens, you have enough to ride the market dips and that helps you not lose to inflation.

I'm 44. When I retired last year we moved to a 80/15/5 split. That 5% of cash gives me 2.5 years of expenses to live off of while things recover. And I've got another 7.5 years in bonds. That's 10 years of money in cash and bonds even if I do nothing to curtail my expenses during that time.

We've got >$1M in taxable accounts anyway so some of the decision is made for us because selling would incur more tax liability than we would want to pay.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 24, 2022, 06:21:29 AM

Well, Saturday night my better half and I went out for a full course steak dinner with bottle of wine, $250 with tip. Last night went to our favorite upscale diner, two rounds of beers, dinner and tip, $85. Life ain’t bad. We’ll just buckle up and mentally put our hands up and scream as we keep riding this stock market roller coaster.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 24, 2022, 06:46:23 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 24, 2022, 05:42:28 AM

Looks like we've dipped ever so slightly below 3 million.  The emergency fund would kick us above, but I don't count emergency funds in the NW it's in cash and thus worthless.  I've actually enjoyed this little dip.  I'd like to see a bit deeper correction.  Investors, need a little mental adjustment period.  I'm an inflation hawk and would rather see the irrational exuberance quelled than rampant inflation.   We're in our October "low period" range.  Still one third of a million dollars higher than this day last year according to Mint. 
Anyway.  Frost on the ground at our Florida home.  It's a brisk 29 degrees and the sun 🌞 is bright.  Beautiful Monday.  Coffee is brewing and I'm making french toast.  Life is good.

You can send some of that worthless stuff my way, I'll figure out some way to use it up ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 24, 2022, 06:54:54 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 24, 2022, 06:21:29 AM

Well, Saturday night my better half and I went out for a full course steak dinner with bottle of wine, $250 with tip. Last night went to our favorite upscale diner, two rounds of beers, dinner and tip, $85. Life ain’t bad. We’ll just buckle up and mentally put our hands up and scream as we keep riding this stock market roller coaster.

Either you're still drunk or maybe you mixed up what forum you are posting to - even if you're at $4M and 3% SWR, you can't possibly afford to live like that :)  But on a more serious note, how can those peasants afford pitchforks and torches at the wages we pay them?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 24, 2022, 07:10:07 AM

Let’s just not pull a Jeff Bezos, who thanked his employees for making his dream come true to take a trip into space.


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 24, 2022, 07:28:58 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 24, 2022, 06:46:23 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 24, 2022, 05:42:28 AM

Looks like we've dipped ever so slightly below 3 million.  The emergency fund would kick us above, but I don't count emergency funds in the NW it's in cash and thus worthless.  I've actually enjoyed this little dip.  I'd like to see a bit deeper correction.  Investors, need a little mental adjustment period.  I'm an inflation hawk and would rather see the irrational exuberance quelled than rampant inflation.   We're in our October "low period" range.  Still one third of a million dollars higher than this day last year according to Mint. 
Anyway.  Frost on the ground at our Florida home.  It's a brisk 29 degrees and the sun 🌞 is bright.  Beautiful Monday.  Coffee is brewing and I'm making french toast.  Life is good.

You can send some of that worthless stuff my way, I'll figure out some way to use it up ;-)

Emergency fund money is just like cars, boats, RVs,etc.  All of it loses money.  It has value, but not as much five years down the road. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 24, 2022, 08:49:13 AM

I haven't checked but cold weather and snow show that Ive dipped out of the "......and  beyond."  Looking at the grey sky and snow tells me I'm out of the "......and beyond" and probably landed in the Twilight Zone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 01:09:23 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 23, 2022, 04:02:25 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 23, 2022, 01:35:35 PM

Probably won't make it to $4 mil anytime soon.  Went from 98/2 for the last 5+ years to 55/45 and might go to 50/50 shortly, taking all the gains from March 2020 off the table.  Won't buy the dip as I did early in February and March of 2020.   

This "party" reminds me of a house party years ago, where the police show up at around 12:00 (March 2020) and tell everyone to keep the noise down.  This lasts for about 30 minutes, another neighbor (inflation) calls the police again and at around 1:00 am, everyone sees the cop car out front (January) and knows the party is over.  The smart people, not too drunk (greedy) slink out the back and live to survive another party in the future.  The dumb (greedy) keep drinking and eventually get taken to a drunk tank (sell off).  Police (Fed) could give another warning, but IMHO, the party is over. 

If you are past your goalpost, sell and realize you probably have more cash and equity than you did in March 2020.  I'd sell all equity past the goalpost at a minimum.  If market keeps going up, keep selling.  If the market tanks, you will be thankful the Fed didn't break up the party in March 2020 (S&P @2200) or back in 2009 (S&P 500 @ 700) as they should have after the GFC had passed.  Even at 2100 today S&P 500 would be up 200% in 12 years, which is a great historical return.  At a peak of 4800, S&P 500 was up over 600% from bottom in March of 2009.           

What do advocates of the 4 percent rule say? Should we stay the course with our eyes on a golden horizon?  Should we be happy that we are past the original goalpost?

4% is like driving while looking thru the rearview mirror.  There are several assumptions underlying the 4% rule which are not guaranteed to be true going forward, volatility of returns and distribution of future returns (skewed or normal).  With bond yields near 1%, I'd advocate a 1% SWR, when rates are near 4%, SWR of 4% will work.

I can only comment on what I did.  I went all cash at my SWR and kept money in the market I probably won't need, assuming toilet paper doesn't cost $100/roll in a few years due to inflation.         

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 01:10:39 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 23, 2022, 04:39:09 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 23, 2022, 04:02:25 PM

What do advocates of the 4 percent rule say? Should we stay the course with our eyes on a golden horizon?  Should we be happy that we are past the original goalpost?

There are several schools of thought on this.

Some people would advocate for dialing back risk.  You've won the game and all that.

My view is that I can divide my FIRE stash into two piles:  the first pile is money I'll spend in my lifetime, and the second pile is money that I won't get to (because I have more than I need).

While I don't know exactly how much is in pile one, I can make an educated guess and keep that guess updated from time to time.  In fact, I basically take my annual spending rate and multiply by 25 for my estimate.  I invest pile one according to my AA based on my goals, risk profile, planning horizon, etc.

Pile two is money that my kids will get, probably 30 years from now.  Accordingly, this pile is invested in the way that I think will be best for them given that time horizon, their risk profile, etc.

I don't actually physically divide my money, but I do the above math and then can figure out what the overall blended AA should be and make that my target.

Good idea to have piles, where one pile is likely never to be used in one's lifetime. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 01:17:29 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 23, 2022, 08:27:39 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 23, 2022, 01:35:35 PM

Probably won't make it to $4 mil anytime soon.  Went from 98/2 for the last 5+ years to 55/45 and might go to 50/50 shortly, taking all the gains from March 2020 off the table.  Won't buy the dip as I did early in February and March of 2020.   

This "party" reminds me of a house party years ago, where the police show up at around 12:00 (March 2020) and tell everyone to keep the noise down.  This lasts for about 30 minutes, another neighbor (inflation) calls the police again and at around 1:00 am, everyone sees the cop car out front (January) and knows the party is over.  The smart people, not too drunk (greedy) slink out the back and live to survive another party in the future.  The dumb (greedy) keep drinking and eventually get taken to a drunk tank (sell off).  Police (Fed) could give another warning, but IMHO, the party is over. 

If you are past your goalpost, sell and realize you probably have more cash and equity than you did in March 2020.  I'd sell all equity past the goalpost at a minimum.  If market keeps going up, keep selling.  If the market tanks, you will be thankful the Fed didn't break up the party in March 2020 (S&P @2200) or back in 2009 (S&P 500 @ 700) as they should have after the GFC had passed.  Even at 2100 today S&P 500 would be up 200% in 12 years, which is a great historical return.  At a peak of 4800, S&P 500 was up over 600% from bottom in March of 2009.           

Nice tale, but I am not convinced that you can time the market so I wont be slinking out the back door and will keep on boozing away.
In any case I dont need to be sober for 5 more years as I have enough cash/ fixed interest deposits to see me until 2027, and my employer has just promised to deliver another keg to the party next month in the form of my 2021 bonus.
Party on!!!
We will see whether I choose rehab or hair of the dog come 2027.

Nobody can predict when/where lighting strikes, but if your house gets hit, do you run outside or repeat "Nobody can predict a lighting strike" and finish watching "The Bachelor"? 

I went from a 5-year stash to a lifetime stash last week.  There are mechanical issues with a market when it sells off this much over a few weeks that can't be undone.  The Fed could start buying stocks, but this will just turn our markets into Japan and prolong the pain.     

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 01:22:10 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 24, 2022, 05:48:44 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 23, 2022, 01:35:35 PM

Probably won't make it to $4 mil anytime soon.  Went from 98/2 for the last 5+ years to 55/45 and might go to 50/50 shortly, taking all the gains from March 2020 off the table.  Won't buy the dip as I did early in February and March of 2020.   

This "party" reminds me of a house party years ago, where the police show up at around 12:00 (March 2020) and tell everyone to keep the noise down.  This lasts for about 30 minutes, another neighbor (inflation) calls the police again and at around 1:00 am, everyone sees the cop car out front (January) and knows the party is over.  The smart people, not too drunk (greedy) slink out the back and live to survive another party in the future.  The dumb (greedy) keep drinking and eventually get taken to a drunk tank (sell off).  Police (Fed) could give another warning, but IMHO, the party is over. 

If you are past your goalpost, sell and realize you probably have more cash and equity than you did in March 2020.  I'd sell all equity past the goalpost at a minimum.  If market keeps going up, keep selling.  If the market tanks, you will be thankful the Fed didn't break up the party in March 2020 (S&P @2200) or back in 2009 (S&P 500 @ 700) as they should have after the GFC had passed.  Even at 2100 today S&P 500 would be up 200% in 12 years, which is a great historical return.  At a peak of 4800, S&P 500 was up over 600% from bottom in March of 2009.           

If your past your goalpost it doesn't matter what happens, you have enough to ride the market dips and that helps you not lose to inflation.

I'm 44. When I retired last year we moved to a 80/15/5 split. That 5% of cash gives me 2.5 years of expenses to live off of while things recover. And I've got another 7.5 years in bonds. That's 10 years of money in cash and bonds even if I do nothing to curtail my expenses during that time.

We've got >$1M in taxable accounts anyway so some of the decision is made for us because selling would incur more tax liability than we would want to pay.

Very true about inflation.  I will FIRE this year when WFH ends (was told at the end of 2022 but could change anytime).  Was planning to build cash in a tax advantaged way during the year, but just pulled the plug last week.  Everyone should follow their own instincts but I've always had a larger cash stash even when working and went near lifetime stash, assuming toilet paper doesn't cost $100/roll soon.  Still have more equity in the markets than I did in March 2020, but basically took all these gains off the table as IMHO, the Fed was responsible for most of these gains and now ending the party.  Only time will tell, but my preference is to be safe rather than sorry.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 24, 2022, 01:54:29 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 01:22:10 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 24, 2022, 05:48:44 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 23, 2022, 01:35:35 PM

Probably won't make it to $4 mil anytime soon.  Went from 98/2 for the last 5+ years to 55/45 and might go to 50/50 shortly, taking all the gains from March 2020 off the table.  Won't buy the dip as I did early in February and March of 2020.   

This "party" reminds me of a house party years ago, where the police show up at around 12:00 (March 2020) and tell everyone to keep the noise down.  This lasts for about 30 minutes, another neighbor (inflation) calls the police again and at around 1:00 am, everyone sees the cop car out front (January) and knows the party is over.  The smart people, not too drunk (greedy) slink out the back and live to survive another party in the future.  The dumb (greedy) keep drinking and eventually get taken to a drunk tank (sell off).  Police (Fed) could give another warning, but IMHO, the party is over. 

If you are past your goalpost, sell and realize you probably have more cash and equity than you did in March 2020.  I'd sell all equity past the goalpost at a minimum.  If market keeps going up, keep selling.  If the market tanks, you will be thankful the Fed didn't break up the party in March 2020 (S&P @2200) or back in 2009 (S&P 500 @ 700) as they should have after the GFC had passed.  Even at 2100 today S&P 500 would be up 200% in 12 years, which is a great historical return.  At a peak of 4800, S&P 500 was up over 600% from bottom in March of 2009.           

If your past your goalpost it doesn't matter what happens, you have enough to ride the market dips and that helps you not lose to inflation.

I'm 44. When I retired last year we moved to a 80/15/5 split. That 5% of cash gives me 2.5 years of expenses to live off of while things recover. And I've got another 7.5 years in bonds. That's 10 years of money in cash and bonds even if I do nothing to curtail my expenses during that time.

We've got >$1M in taxable accounts anyway so some of the decision is made for us because selling would incur more tax liability than we would want to pay.

Very true about inflation.  I will FIRE this year when WFH ends (was told at the end of 2022 but could change anytime).  Was planning to build cash in a tax advantaged way during the year, but just pulled the plug last week.  Everyone should follow their own instincts but I've always had a larger cash stash even when working and went near lifetime stash, assuming toilet paper doesn't cost $100/roll soon.  Still have more equity in the markets than I did in March 2020, but basically took all these gains off the table as IMHO, the Fed was responsible for most of these gains and now ending the party.  Only time will tell, but my preference is to be safe rather than sorry.   

Cash is going to lose whatever the inflation % is in purchasing power.  There are certainly other things to own than one giant pile of cash, like buying I-bonds each year, TIPS, real estate...  I hope you have a plan with something other than cash for 30 years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on January 24, 2022, 02:04:18 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 01:22:10 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 24, 2022, 05:48:44 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 23, 2022, 01:35:35 PM

Probably won't make it to $4 mil anytime soon.  Went from 98/2 for the last 5+ years to 55/45 and might go to 50/50 shortly, taking all the gains from March 2020 off the table.  Won't buy the dip as I did early in February and March of 2020.   

This "party" reminds me of a house party years ago, where the police show up at around 12:00 (March 2020) and tell everyone to keep the noise down.  This lasts for about 30 minutes, another neighbor (inflation) calls the police again and at around 1:00 am, everyone sees the cop car out front (January) and knows the party is over.  The smart people, not too drunk (greedy) slink out the back and live to survive another party in the future.  The dumb (greedy) keep drinking and eventually get taken to a drunk tank (sell off).  Police (Fed) could give another warning, but IMHO, the party is over. 

If you are past your goalpost, sell and realize you probably have more cash and equity than you did in March 2020.  I'd sell all equity past the goalpost at a minimum.  If market keeps going up, keep selling.  If the market tanks, you will be thankful the Fed didn't break up the party in March 2020 (S&P @2200) or back in 2009 (S&P 500 @ 700) as they should have after the GFC had passed.  Even at 2100 today S&P 500 would be up 200% in 12 years, which is a great historical return.  At a peak of 4800, S&P 500 was up over 600% from bottom in March of 2009.           

If your past your goalpost it doesn't matter what happens, you have enough to ride the market dips and that helps you not lose to inflation.

I'm 44. When I retired last year we moved to a 80/15/5 split. That 5% of cash gives me 2.5 years of expenses to live off of while things recover. And I've got another 7.5 years in bonds. That's 10 years of money in cash and bonds even if I do nothing to curtail my expenses during that time.

We've got >$1M in taxable accounts anyway so some of the decision is made for us because selling would incur more tax liability than we would want to pay.

Very true about inflation.  I will FIRE this year when WFH ends (was told at the end of 2022 but could change anytime).  Was planning to build cash in a tax advantaged way during the year, but just pulled the plug last week.  Everyone should follow their own instincts but I've always had a larger cash stash even when working and went near lifetime stash, assuming toilet paper doesn't cost $100/roll soon.  Still have more equity in the markets than I did in March 2020, but basically took all these gains off the table as IMHO, the Fed was responsible for most of these gains and now ending the party.  Only time will tell, but my preference is to be safe rather than sorry.   

Wait. Am I reading this right? You sold 30 years worth of expenses in taxable equity accounts? In one go? Tell me I’m misunderstanding! That can’t be right.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 02:09:38 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 24, 2022, 02:04:18 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 01:22:10 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 24, 2022, 05:48:44 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 23, 2022, 01:35:35 PM

Probably won't make it to $4 mil anytime soon.  Went from 98/2 for the last 5+ years to 55/45 and might go to 50/50 shortly, taking all the gains from March 2020 off the table.  Won't buy the dip as I did early in February and March of 2020.   

This "party" reminds me of a house party years ago, where the police show up at around 12:00 (March 2020) and tell everyone to keep the noise down.  This lasts for about 30 minutes, another neighbor (inflation) calls the police again and at around 1:00 am, everyone sees the cop car out front (January) and knows the party is over.  The smart people, not too drunk (greedy) slink out the back and live to survive another party in the future.  The dumb (greedy) keep drinking and eventually get taken to a drunk tank (sell off).  Police (Fed) could give another warning, but IMHO, the party is over. 

If you are past your goalpost, sell and realize you probably have more cash and equity than you did in March 2020.  I'd sell all equity past the goalpost at a minimum.  If market keeps going up, keep selling.  If the market tanks, you will be thankful the Fed didn't break up the party in March 2020 (S&P @2200) or back in 2009 (S&P 500 @ 700) as they should have after the GFC had passed.  Even at 2100 today S&P 500 would be up 200% in 12 years, which is a great historical return.  At a peak of 4800, S&P 500 was up over 600% from bottom in March of 2009.           

If your past your goalpost it doesn't matter what happens, you have enough to ride the market dips and that helps you not lose to inflation.

I'm 44. When I retired last year we moved to a 80/15/5 split. That 5% of cash gives me 2.5 years of expenses to live off of while things recover. And I've got another 7.5 years in bonds. That's 10 years of money in cash and bonds even if I do nothing to curtail my expenses during that time.

We've got >$1M in taxable accounts anyway so some of the decision is made for us because selling would incur more tax liability than we would want to pay.

Very true about inflation.  I will FIRE this year when WFH ends (was told at the end of 2022 but could change anytime).  Was planning to build cash in a tax advantaged way during the year, but just pulled the plug last week.  Everyone should follow their own instincts but I've always had a larger cash stash even when working and went near lifetime stash, assuming toilet paper doesn't cost $100/roll soon.  Still have more equity in the markets than I did in March 2020, but basically took all these gains off the table as IMHO, the Fed was responsible for most of these gains and now ending the party.  Only time will tell, but my preference is to be safe rather than sorry.   

Wait. Am I reading this right? You sold 30 years worth of expenses in taxable equity accounts? In one go? Tell me I’m misunderstanding! That can’t be right.

Mostly in IRAs some in taxable.  Still have equity exposure, almost the same as March 2020, but will happily pay 15% LTCG on 100%+ return from that point.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 02:15:23 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 24, 2022, 01:54:29 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 01:22:10 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 24, 2022, 05:48:44 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 23, 2022, 01:35:35 PM

Probably won't make it to $4 mil anytime soon.  Went from 98/2 for the last 5+ years to 55/45 and might go to 50/50 shortly, taking all the gains from March 2020 off the table.  Won't buy the dip as I did early in February and March of 2020.   

This "party" reminds me of a house party years ago, where the police show up at around 12:00 (March 2020) and tell everyone to keep the noise down.  This lasts for about 30 minutes, another neighbor (inflation) calls the police again and at around 1:00 am, everyone sees the cop car out front (January) and knows the party is over.  The smart people, not too drunk (greedy) slink out the back and live to survive another party in the future.  The dumb (greedy) keep drinking and eventually get taken to a drunk tank (sell off).  Police (Fed) could give another warning, but IMHO, the party is over. 

If you are past your goalpost, sell and realize you probably have more cash and equity than you did in March 2020.  I'd sell all equity past the goalpost at a minimum.  If market keeps going up, keep selling.  If the market tanks, you will be thankful the Fed didn't break up the party in March 2020 (S&P @2200) or back in 2009 (S&P 500 @ 700) as they should have after the GFC had passed.  Even at 2100 today S&P 500 would be up 200% in 12 years, which is a great historical return.  At a peak of 4800, S&P 500 was up over 600% from bottom in March of 2009.           

If your past your goalpost it doesn't matter what happens, you have enough to ride the market dips and that helps you not lose to inflation.

I'm 44. When I retired last year we moved to a 80/15/5 split. That 5% of cash gives me 2.5 years of expenses to live off of while things recover. And I've got another 7.5 years in bonds. That's 10 years of money in cash and bonds even if I do nothing to curtail my expenses during that time.

We've got >$1M in taxable accounts anyway so some of the decision is made for us because selling would incur more tax liability than we would want to pay.

Very true about inflation.  I will FIRE this year when WFH ends (was told at the end of 2022 but could change anytime).  Was planning to build cash in a tax advantaged way during the year, but just pulled the plug last week.  Everyone should follow their own instincts but I've always had a larger cash stash even when working and went near lifetime stash, assuming toilet paper doesn't cost $100/roll soon.  Still have more equity in the markets than I did in March 2020, but basically took all these gains off the table as IMHO, the Fed was responsible for most of these gains and now ending the party.  Only time will tell, but my preference is to be safe rather than sorry.   

Cash is going to lose whatever the inflation % is in purchasing power.  There are certainly other things to own than one giant pile of cash, like buying I-bonds each year, TIPS, real estate...  I hope you have a plan with something other than cash for 30 years.

Yep, but no rush.  Will get back into markets when Fed stops QT and rates are normalized.  May roll CD's when rates are above 1%. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 24, 2022, 02:18:30 PM

Well today was a literal roller coaster.


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 24, 2022, 02:40:03 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 24, 2022, 02:18:30 PM

Well today was a literal roller coaster.

Yep, all the way back to July valuations, which incidentally were so high we were all celebrating...

Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: swaneesr on January 24, 2022, 05:43:26 PM

Hello everyone.

DW and I qualify I guess for this club. We ended 2021 at a liquid net worth of xxxMM.  We have another xxxMM in property in a medium COL area.

I made the mistake of watching the market today. It was a roller coaster. I do not have the temperament to watch the market on a daily basis. Too much drama.

I increased my savings rate during all the past market drops going back to the early 90’s.

This may be a buying opportunity?  I guess we will know in six months or a year how all this shakes out.

All I know for sure is I can not predict the market and I am usually wrong.

SwaneeSR


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Visitation on January 24, 2022, 06:07:36 PM

Market corrections of 10% to 15% are a healthy part of the cycle.   So long as they don't turn into a bear market, which we won't know until it does or doesn't.   But Roth conversions are on sale!

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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 24, 2022, 07:03:10 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 02:15:23 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 24, 2022, 01:54:29 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 01:22:10 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 24, 2022, 05:48:44 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 23, 2022, 01:35:35 PM

Probably won't make it to $4 mil anytime soon.  Went from 98/2 for the last 5+ years to 55/45 and might go to 50/50 shortly, taking all the gains from March 2020 off the table.  Won't buy the dip as I did early in February and March of 2020.   

This "party" reminds me of a house party years ago, where the police show up at around 12:00 (March 2020) and tell everyone to keep the noise down.  This lasts for about 30 minutes, another neighbor (inflation) calls the police again and at around 1:00 am, everyone sees the cop car out front (January) and knows the party is over.  The smart people, not too drunk (greedy) slink out the back and live to survive another party in the future.  The dumb (greedy) keep drinking and eventually get taken to a drunk tank (sell off).  Police (Fed) could give another warning, but IMHO, the party is over. 

If you are past your goalpost, sell and realize you probably have more cash and equity than you did in March 2020.  I'd sell all equity past the goalpost at a minimum.  If market keeps going up, keep selling.  If the market tanks, you will be thankful the Fed didn't break up the party in March 2020 (S&P @2200) or back in 2009 (S&P 500 @ 700) as they should have after the GFC had passed.  Even at 2100 today S&P 500 would be up 200% in 12 years, which is a great historical return.  At a peak of 4800, S&P 500 was up over 600% from bottom in March of 2009.           

If your past your goalpost it doesn't matter what happens, you have enough to ride the market dips and that helps you not lose to inflation.

I'm 44. When I retired last year we moved to a 80/15/5 split. That 5% of cash gives me 2.5 years of expenses to live off of while things recover. And I've got another 7.5 years in bonds. That's 10 years of money in cash and bonds even if I do nothing to curtail my expenses during that time.

We've got >$1M in taxable accounts anyway so some of the decision is made for us because selling would incur more tax liability than we would want to pay.

Very true about inflation.  I will FIRE this year when WFH ends (was told at the end of 2022 but could change anytime).  Was planning to build cash in a tax advantaged way during the year, but just pulled the plug last week.  Everyone should follow their own instincts but I've always had a larger cash stash even when working and went near lifetime stash, assuming toilet paper doesn't cost $100/roll soon.  Still have more equity in the markets than I did in March 2020, but basically took all these gains off the table as IMHO, the Fed was responsible for most of these gains and now ending the party.  Only time will tell, but my preference is to be safe rather than sorry.   

Cash is going to lose whatever the inflation % is in purchasing power.  There are certainly other things to own than one giant pile of cash, like buying I-bonds each year, TIPS, real estate...  I hope you have a plan with something other than cash for 30 years.

Yep, but no rush.  Will get back into markets when Fed stops QT and rates are normalized.  May roll CD's when rates are above 1%.

Please do tell us when you are buying and what assets.  Otherwise DaTrill might just be Da Troll, LOL

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 24, 2022, 07:33:21 PM

WSJ - “The DOW has never before closed positive after being down 1000 points”.

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/3o7WIp5mi2vAhRKyhq/giphy.gif)


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 24, 2022, 07:34:33 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 24, 2022, 02:40:03 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 24, 2022, 02:18:30 PM

Well today was a literal roller coaster.

Yep, all the way back to July valuations, which incidentally were so high we were all celebrating...

Stawp, you’re ruining the ride.


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 25, 2022, 09:46:43 AM

Ok so now the S&P 500 is in correction territory.. Where is the bottom?

We need the "inverse of Thorstache"!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jrhampt on January 25, 2022, 10:56:10 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 25, 2022, 09:46:43 AM

Ok so now the S&P 500 is in correction territory.. Where is the bottom?

We need the "inverse of Thorstache"!

Idk, but I had some extra cash lying around so I bought some yesterday.  If it keeps going down will buy some more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 25, 2022, 01:15:58 PM

Going to need a collar for my whiplash of the markets the last two days.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 25, 2022, 02:47:08 PM

Why is it going down?  We might have a war on our hands.  I always thought the Wall Street types liked war.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 26, 2022, 12:16:29 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 01:09:23 PM

4% is like driving while looking thru the rearview mirror.  There are several assumptions underlying the 4% rule which are not guaranteed to be true going forward, volatility of returns and distribution of future returns (skewed or normal).  With bond yields near 1%, I'd advocate a 1% SWR, when rates are near 4%, SWR of 4% will work.

I can only comment on what I did.  I went all cash at my SWR and kept money in the market I probably won't need, assuming toilet paper doesn't cost $100/roll in a few years due to inflation.       

1% as a safe withdrawal rate is about as pessimistic view of the future as I have ever heard. I am too optimistic to get on board with that view of the future….. and also not rich enough to be happy spending so little of my stash. Each to one’s own I suppose.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 26, 2022, 09:28:02 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 26, 2022, 12:16:29 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 01:09:23 PM

4% is like driving while looking thru the rearview mirror.  There are several assumptions underlying the 4% rule which are not guaranteed to be true going forward, volatility of returns and distribution of future returns (skewed or normal).  With bond yields near 1%, I'd advocate a 1% SWR, when rates are near 4%, SWR of 4% will work.

I can only comment on what I did.  I went all cash at my SWR and kept money in the market I probably won't need, assuming toilet paper doesn't cost $100/roll in a few years due to inflation.       

1% as a safe withdrawal rate is about as pessimistic view of the future as I have ever heard. I am too optimistic to get on board with that view of the future….. and also not rich enough to be happy spending so little of my stash. Each to one’s own I suppose.

ERE Jacob is well below 1% SWR.  4% for longer than 30 years presents all kinds of estimation issues and why I'm at around 1%. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 26, 2022, 09:36:52 PM

Unless you expect that you can’t even get an investment return that matches inflation, I can’t comprehend the maths driving 1%.

If you can invest to earn at least level with inflation, then 2% drawdown would last 50 years, which is a very long time. Longer than I will live I am certain.

I accept there is a risk that shares crash immediately after retiring and never recover. I’m willing to bet that the share market will continue to grow with fits and starts as it has over the past century.

The probability that you can’t beat inflation over 50 years is surely negligible if you are investing reasonably conservatively.

If you are targeting 1% then I believe you will almost certainly work longer than you need to and will die with a very large estate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 27, 2022, 01:33:44 PM

Below took a few minutes so please forgive any errors and please forward with any suggestions.  I can't post Excel for some reason, but even when returns are positive, the inter year returns can swamp any yearly positive returns.  If returns are negative for the first few months and then positive the rest of the year, even ending in a positive return, due to the fixed withdrawal, the balance will shrink and slowly bleed out any 4% SWR. 

The first case is that of a uniform monthly return with fixed withdrawal at 4%, the second is a negative 6 months, then positive 6 months, ending the year positive, but due to fixed withdrawal rate of 4%, balance is negative despite the overall return of the market being positive.  The third is down-up return with no withdrawals.  If returns are more volatile inter year, the balance will bleed out more with a fixed SWR. 

There are many other issues with the stats of the 4% rule (normal distribution vs skewed and relevant range violations) but below is a pure math and returns based critique. 


Beg value    $100,000
Return   6.00%
Monthly   0.50%
SWR   4%
Mon SWR   0.003333333

Uniform         
   Value              Cash       End
Jan    $100,500     $333.33     $100,166.67
Feb    $100,667.50     $333.33     $100,334.17
Mar    $100,835.84     $333.33     $100,502.50
Apr    $101,005.02     $333.33     $100,671.68
May    $101,175.04     $333.33     $100,841.71
Jun    $101,345.92     $333.33     $101,012.58
Jul    $101,517.65     $333.33     $101,184.31
Aug    $101,690.23     $333.33     $101,356.90
Sep    $101,863.69     $333.33     $101,530.35
Oct    $102,038.00     $333.33     $101,704.67
Nov    $102,213.19     $333.33     $101,879.86
Dec    $102,389.26     $333.33     $102,055.93
         
Total Return   1.88%   


Beg value    $100,000
Return Jan-Jun   -6.00%
Monthly   -0.50%
Return Jul-Dec   8.77%
Monthly   0.73%
SWR   4%
Mon SWR   0.003333333
   
Down-Up          
   Value            Cash       End
Jan    $99,500.00     $333.33     $99,166.67
Feb    $98,670.83     $333.33     $98,337.50
Mar    $97,845.81     $333.33     $97,512.48
Apr    $97,024.92     $333.33     $96,691.58
May    $96,208.13     $333.33     $95,874.79
Jun    $95,395.42     $333.33     $95,062.08
Jul    $95,756.83     $333.33     $95,423.50
Aug    $96,120.88     $333.33     $95,787.55
Sep    $96,487.60     $333.33     $96,154.26
Oct    $96,856.99     $333.33     $96,523.66
Nov    $97,229.09     $333.33     $96,895.75
Dec    $97,603.90     $333.33     $97,270.57
         
Total Return   -1.91%      


Same as Down-Up data

No withdrawals         
   Value          Cash       End
Jan    $99,500.00     $-       $99,500.00
Feb    $99,002.50     $-       $99,002.50
Mar    $98,507.49     $-       $98,507.49
Apr    $98,014.95     $-       $98,014.95
May    $97,524.88     $-       $97,524.88
Jun    $97,037.25     $-       $97,037.25
Jul    $97,746.43     $-       $97,746.43
Aug    $98,460.80     $-       $98,460.80
Sep    $99,180.38     $-       $99,180.38
Oct    $99,905.22     $-       $99,905.22
Nov    $100,635.36     $-       $100,635.36
Dec    $101,370.84     $-       $101,370.84
         
Total Return   1.88%      

   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 27, 2022, 02:55:42 PM

I must apologise but I don’t quite get your point.

The 4% rule is based on a historic review of the maximum you could drawdown annually over am30 year period without running out of money.

History had period of poor sequences of returns, be it months like in your example above or years.

I doubt many on this thread would argue with you that 4% may not be safe in the future, amd maybe something lower like 3.5% or 3.3% might even be tested in time. But so far 4% has been as bad as it gets.

Going from “4% may no longer prove to be safe” to “you should plan on drawing only 1%” is extreme however.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on January 28, 2022, 08:18:24 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 27, 2022, 01:33:44 PM

Below took a few minutes......

Sorry you lost me.    Let me add that if you eat turkey on Thanksgiving you may be sleepy sometime later.

So you are saying SORR may be an issue so go with a 1% or less WR.   

What is your point? Go read the SWR thread!

Can you run a few more scenarios where returns are between -50% and +50% with inflation included both in an actual historical context and completely random context for 30 year periods.  Oh yeah, would you also be able to run some with variable spending parameters like when markets may be up or down.   O oh oh..also how about like 60/40 75/25 or at least  5 other different AAs.   I am just curious what the results would be as it may help me draw some conclusions while reserving my right to be flexible but accept my own person risk.

Can't wait for the results as it will be super helpful!

Thanks in advance.

T

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 28, 2022, 08:26:57 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 27, 2022, 01:33:44 PM

Beg value    $100,000
Return Jan-Jun   -6.00%
Monthly   -0.50%
Return Jul-Dec   8.77%
Monthly   0.73%
SWR   4%
Mon SWR   0.003333333
   

I would love to see a rational explanation for why the market would act like this year after year after year after year, enough so it would cause a portfolio to fail.  Otherwise, I'm not going to care.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 28, 2022, 08:52:03 AM

I think it's the standard "markets could be worse in the future / Japan / asteroid / this time it's different (and worse)" argument.  It is a legitimate point, but I agree that 1% is likely overkill.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 28, 2022, 10:10:11 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 26, 2022, 09:28:02 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 26, 2022, 12:16:29 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 24, 2022, 01:09:23 PM

4% is like driving while looking thru the rearview mirror.  There are several assumptions underlying the 4% rule which are not guaranteed to be true going forward, volatility of returns and distribution of future returns (skewed or normal).  With bond yields near 1%, I'd advocate a 1% SWR, when rates are near 4%, SWR of 4% will work.

I can only comment on what I did.  I went all cash at my SWR and kept money in the market I probably won't need, assuming toilet paper doesn't cost $100/roll in a few years due to inflation.       

1% as a safe withdrawal rate is about as pessimistic view of the future as I have ever heard. I am too optimistic to get on board with that view of the future….. and also not rich enough to be happy spending so little of my stash. Each to one’s own I suppose.

ERE Jacob is well below 1% SWR.  4% for longer than 30 years presents all kinds of estimation issues and why I'm at around 1%.

The good news is, today DaTrill would be up 2 years of withdrawals, assuming ~80/20 AA...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 28, 2022, 11:32:02 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 28, 2022, 10:10:11 PM

The good news is, today DaTrill would be up 2 years of withdrawals, assuming ~80/20 AA...

You can’t look at just one day, the S&P is down more than 7% this year, so Datrill only has 92 years of savings left!!!!! ……albeit assuming he never gets paid another dividend, and with 2022 s&P500 earnings growth expected to be more than 20% I remain hopeful that datrill will get a few dividends over the next 92 years to ensure his stash will grow into perpetuity.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 29, 2022, 07:05:02 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 28, 2022, 11:32:02 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 28, 2022, 10:10:11 PM

The good news is, today DaTrill would be up 2 years of withdrawals, assuming ~80/20 AA...

You can’t look at just one day, the S&P is down more than 7% this year, so Datrill only has 92 years of savings left!!!!! ……albeit assuming he never gets paid another dividend, and with 2022 s&P500 earnings growth expected to be more than 20% I remain hopeful that datrill will get a few dividends over the next 92 years to ensure his stash will grow into perpetuity.

Good points!  I’m also erroneously assuming 30 years, with a sufficiently pessimistic attitude, I doubt that’s the case.  But he is FI, so there’s that…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 07:20:05 AM

Well, withdrawal rate doesn’t tell me much anyway. What does withdrawal mean anyway, moving money between accounts and potentially reclassifying tax status?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 29, 2022, 08:17:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 07:20:05 AM

Well, withdrawal rate doesn’t tell me much anyway. What does withdrawal mean anyway, moving money between accounts and potentially reclassifying tax status?

I don't know how other people use the term, but for me I calculate WR as actual spending divided by FIRE stash.  So buying groceries would be actual spending and thus part of my WR.  Moving money between accounts is just a transfer to me, and thus pretty much ignored.  Of course things like Roth conversions or realizing capital gains has tax impacts, which can result in taxes paid, which I also count as actual spending and thus part of my WR.

Very roughly speaking, WR can be a first gauge at whether someone is spending sustainably.  Of course age, risk tolerance, spending flexibility, life expectancy, AA, and a whole host of other factors enter into play.  But if I say I'm 52 and have a WR of about 1%, one can pretty safely conclude that I'm being reasonably safe and probably too conservative.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 29, 2022, 09:39:05 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 28, 2022, 08:52:03 AM

I think it's the standard "markets could be worse in the future / Japan / asteroid / this time it's different (and worse)" argument.  It is a legitimate point, but I agree that 1% is likely overkill.

If you don't care about leaving an estate, you can put all your money into TIPS and get inflation protection, pulling out 1/N each year where N= number of years in retirement.  So for example if you expect a 50 year retirement you can lock in a 2% WR, 3.33% for a 30 year retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 29, 2022, 11:47:21 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 27, 2022, 02:55:42 PM

I must apologise but I don’t quite get your point.

The 4% rule is based on a historic review of the maximum you could drawdown annually over am30 year period without running out of money.

History had period of poor sequences of returns, be it months like in your example above or years.

I doubt many on this thread would argue with you that 4% may not be safe in the future, amd maybe something lower like 3.5% or 3.3% might even be tested in time. But so far 4% has been as bad as it gets.

Going from “4% may no longer prove to be safe” to “you should plan on drawing only 1%” is extreme however.

The only point is small changes in unmeasured return characteristics can take a good plan and ruin it.  "Past performance is no guarantee of future returns" 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 29, 2022, 11:49:42 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 28, 2022, 08:26:57 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 27, 2022, 01:33:44 PM

Beg value    $100,000
Return Jan-Jun   -6.00%
Monthly   -0.50%
Return Jul-Dec   8.77%
Monthly   0.73%
SWR   4%
Mon SWR   0.003333333
   

I would love to see a rational explanation for why the market would act like this year after year after year after year, enough so it would cause a portfolio to fail.  Otherwise, I'm not going to care.

The market doesn't have to do this every year, just a few years in a row, around 5 or 5 of 7, 6 of 8, to fail the 4%.  Do you know inter year market returns for the next 40 years?  Please share. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 29, 2022, 11:51:36 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 28, 2022, 08:18:24 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 27, 2022, 01:33:44 PM

Below took a few minutes......

Sorry you lost me.    Let me add that if you eat turkey on Thanksgiving you may be sleepy sometime later.

So you are saying SORR may be an issue so go with a 1% or less WR.   

What is your point? Go read the SWR thread!

Can you run a few more scenarios where returns are between -50% and +50% with inflation included both in an actual historical context and completely random context for 30 year periods.  Oh yeah, would you also be able to run some with variable spending parameters like when markets may be up or down.   O oh oh..also how about like 60/40 75/25 or at least  5 other different AAs.   I am just curious what the results would be as it may help me draw some conclusions while reserving my right to be flexible but accept my own person risk.

Can't wait for the results as it will be super helpful!

Thanks in advance.

T

Why?  4% rule has many assumptions that are most likely not true for a forward-looking estimation.  Ignore this at your own peril. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 29, 2022, 11:56:51 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 28, 2022, 11:32:02 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 28, 2022, 10:10:11 PM

The good news is, today DaTrill would be up 2 years of withdrawals, assuming ~80/20 AA...

You can’t look at just one day, the S&P is down more than 7% this year, so Datrill only has 92 years of savings left!!!!! ……albeit assuming he never gets paid another dividend, and with 2022 s&P500 earnings growth expected to be more than 20% I remain hopeful that datrill will get a few dividends over the next 92 years to ensure his stash will grow into perpetuity.

Hope I have 92 years in cash and that it lasts this long.   

One of the more ironic observations is the number of very high net worth Wall Street and related investment professionals who hold nearly 100% cash/ST CD's and such.  I just took my post March 2020 gains and put that in cash.  Still have the same equity exposure (a little more) than I did in March 2020.  I took my equity market stimulus check and converted it into cash.  Others continue to let the equity stimulus ride.  Just took race to $4 mil off the table after being one good year from that goal.       

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on January 29, 2022, 12:01:23 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 29, 2022, 08:17:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 07:20:05 AM

Well, withdrawal rate doesn’t tell me much anyway. What does withdrawal mean anyway, moving money between accounts and potentially reclassifying tax status?

I don't know how other people use the term, but for me I calculate WR as actual spending divided by FIRE stash.  So buying groceries would be actual spending and thus part of my WR.  Moving money between accounts is just a transfer to me, and thus pretty much ignored.  Of course things like Roth conversions or realizing capital gains has tax impacts, which can result in taxes paid, which I also count as actual spending and thus part of my WR.

Very roughly speaking, WR can be a first gauge at whether someone is spending sustainably.  Of course age, risk tolerance, spending flexibility, life expectancy, AA, and a whole host of other factors enter into play.  But if I say I'm 52 and have a WR of about 1%, one can pretty safely conclude that I'm being reasonably safe and probably too conservative.

After aggressively playing with some of the 4% assumptions, 1.2% SWR and lower never fails (except fat tails).  This includes a skewed return distribution, higher volatility of returns, lower real return.  Did not include fat tails as I assume this will bust all plans.  Fat tail would be up 50%, then down 50%, up 50% down 50% and repeat until all SWR fail.  2% is relatively safe, 3% and 4% fail with small changes in above estimation characteristics over 50-year time periods (FIRE durations).     

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 12:01:39 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 29, 2022, 08:17:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 07:20:05 AM

Well, withdrawal rate doesn’t tell me much anyway. What does withdrawal mean anyway, moving money between accounts and potentially reclassifying tax status?

I don't know how other people use the term, but for me I calculate WR as actual spending divided by FIRE stash.  So buying groceries would be actual spending and thus part of my WR.  Moving money between accounts is just a transfer to me, and thus pretty much ignored.  Of course things like Roth conversions or realizing capital gains has tax impacts, which can result in taxes paid, which I also count as actual spending and thus part of my WR.

Very roughly speaking, WR can be a first gauge at whether someone is spending sustainably.  Of course age, risk tolerance, spending flexibility, life expectancy, AA, and a whole host of other factors enter into play.  But if I say I'm 52 and have a WR of about 1%, one can pretty safely conclude that I'm being reasonably safe and probably too conservative.

Agreed, thus why it should be called a spend rate or expense ratio, not withdrawal rate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 12:08:39 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 29, 2022, 12:01:23 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 29, 2022, 08:17:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 07:20:05 AM

Well, withdrawal rate doesn’t tell me much anyway. What does withdrawal mean anyway, moving money between accounts and potentially reclassifying tax status?

I don't know how other people use the term, but for me I calculate WR as actual spending divided by FIRE stash.  So buying groceries would be actual spending and thus part of my WR.  Moving money between accounts is just a transfer to me, and thus pretty much ignored.  Of course things like Roth conversions or realizing capital gains has tax impacts, which can result in taxes paid, which I also count as actual spending and thus part of my WR.

Very roughly speaking, WR can be a first gauge at whether someone is spending sustainably.  Of course age, risk tolerance, spending flexibility, life expectancy, AA, and a whole host of other factors enter into play.  But if I say I'm 52 and have a WR of about 1%, one can pretty safely conclude that I'm being reasonably safe and probably too conservative.

After aggressively playing with some of the 4% assumptions, 1.2% SWR and lower never fails (except fat tails).  This includes a skewed return distribution, higher volatility of returns, lower real return.  Did not include fat tails as I assume this will bust all plans.  Fat tail would be up 50%, then down 50%, up 50% down 50% and repeat until all SWR fail.  2% is relatively safe, 3% and 4% fail with small changes in above estimation characteristics over 50-year time periods (FIRE durations).     

Being this safe feels like the equivalent of driving an army tank around the city to avoid getting hurt in a car accident. I guess there is a chance someone could fire a bazooka at ya and maybe then tank would help then?

Heck, maybe all of us in this thread are already in our own army tank and we don’t even recognize it :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 29, 2022, 02:49:28 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 12:08:39 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 29, 2022, 12:01:23 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 29, 2022, 08:17:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 07:20:05 AM

Well, withdrawal rate doesn’t tell me much anyway. What does withdrawal mean anyway, moving money between accounts and potentially reclassifying tax status?

I don't know how other people use the term, but for me I calculate WR as actual spending divided by FIRE stash.  So buying groceries would be actual spending and thus part of my WR.  Moving money between accounts is just a transfer to me, and thus pretty much ignored.  Of course things like Roth conversions or realizing capital gains has tax impacts, which can result in taxes paid, which I also count as actual spending and thus part of my WR.

Very roughly speaking, WR can be a first gauge at whether someone is spending sustainably.  Of course age, risk tolerance, spending flexibility, life expectancy, AA, and a whole host of other factors enter into play.  But if I say I'm 52 and have a WR of about 1%, one can pretty safely conclude that I'm being reasonably safe and probably too conservative.

After aggressively playing with some of the 4% assumptions, 1.2% SWR and lower never fails (except fat tails).  This includes a skewed return distribution, higher volatility of returns, lower real return.  Did not include fat tails as I assume this will bust all plans.  Fat tail would be up 50%, then down 50%, up 50% down 50% and repeat until all SWR fail.  2% is relatively safe, 3% and 4% fail with small changes in above estimation characteristics over 50-year time periods (FIRE durations).     

Being this safe feels like the equivalent of driving an army tank around the city to avoid getting hurt in a car accident. I guess there is a chance someone could fire a bazooka at ya and maybe then tank would help then?
Heck, maybe all of us in this thread are already in our own army tank and we don’t even recognize it :-)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If only temporal fears (e.g. fears about what life and The Market will be doing 30 years from now) could be made so simple as these physical, imminent fears...  That's why this stuff is so 'discussable' - like a game of Chess (but exponentially more complex).  Unfortunately, I do not foresee DaTrill to be the FI version of Magnus Carlsen.  But I also think MMM has run his course...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on January 29, 2022, 10:56:18 PM

Yes, I’d say pretty much all of us on this thread concluded we didn’t align with 100% of MMMs views.

Years ago I loved how simple MMM made early retirement look. 25x spending and the world your oyster. Somehow, it’s all become a bit more complicated than that. For me at least.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 09:00:22 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 29, 2022, 10:56:18 PM

Yes, I’d say pretty much all of us on this thread concluded we didn’t align with 100% of MMMs views.

Years ago I loved how simple MMM made early retirement look. 25x spending and the world your oyster. Somehow, it’s all become a bit more complicated than that. For me at least.

This! Our original was $2.0MM and a paid off house with the kids through college. We are technically there except the kids through college, so onward and level. I paused working in 2019, but the DH still works. Limbo land for at least another year. Our college spend is insane! Once that is finished I think we will have a much better idea of the true 25X.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on January 30, 2022, 09:19:31 AM

Quote from: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 09:00:22 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 29, 2022, 10:56:18 PM

Yes, I’d say pretty much all of us on this thread concluded we didn’t align with 100% of MMMs views.

Years ago I loved how simple MMM made early retirement look. 25x spending and the world your oyster. Somehow, it’s all become a bit more complicated than that. For me at least.

This! Our original was $2.0MM and a paid off house with the kids through college. We are technically there except the kids through college, so onward and level. I paused working in 2019, but the DH still works. Limbo land for at least another year. Our college spend is insane! Once that is finished I think we will have a much better idea of the true 25X.

Yeah, not looking forward to college spend with three kids but have put aside a bunch of $ that we don't include in our stash but it's probably still not enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on January 30, 2022, 10:29:53 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 30, 2022, 09:19:31 AM

Quote from: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 09:00:22 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 29, 2022, 10:56:18 PM

Yes, I’d say pretty much all of us on this thread concluded we didn’t align with 100% of MMMs views.

Years ago I loved how simple MMM made early retirement look. 25x spending and the world your oyster. Somehow, it’s all become a bit more complicated than that. For me at least.

This! Our original was $2.0MM and a paid off house with the kids through college. We are technically there except the kids through college, so onward and level. I paused working in 2019, but the DH still works. Limbo land for at least another year. Our college spend is insane! Once that is finished I think we will have a much better idea of the true 25X.

Yeah, not looking forward to college spend with three kids but have put aside a bunch of $ that we don't include in our stash but it's probably still not enough.

There's an easy way around this... have them pay for their own education. Also, not everyone has to go to college.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on January 30, 2022, 10:58:49 AM

Quote from: dividendman on January 30, 2022, 10:29:53 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 30, 2022, 09:19:31 AM

Quote from: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 09:00:22 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 29, 2022, 10:56:18 PM

Yes, I’d say pretty much all of us on this thread concluded we didn’t align with 100% of MMMs views.

Years ago I loved how simple MMM made early retirement look. 25x spending and the world your oyster. Somehow, it’s all become a bit more complicated than that. For me at least.

This! Our original was $2.0MM and a paid off house with the kids through college. We are technically there except the kids through college, so onward and level. I paused working in 2019, but the DH still works. Limbo land for at least another year. Our college spend is insane! Once that is finished I think we will have a much better idea of the true 25X.

Yeah, not looking forward to college spend with three kids but have put aside a bunch of $ that we don't include in our stash but it's probably still not enough.

There's an easy way around this... have them pay for their own education. Also, not everyone has to go to college.

A self funded gap year could make a huge difference in funding. It isn't all that easy to get yourself declared a non traditional student if you are under 25, and I certainly don't recommend anyone take the route I did (bad marriage), but it can open up some additional funding options.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 11:27:05 AM

Quote from: ixtap on January 30, 2022, 10:58:49 AM

Quote from: dividendman on January 30, 2022, 10:29:53 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 30, 2022, 09:19:31 AM

Quote from: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 09:00:22 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 29, 2022, 10:56:18 PM

Yes, I’d say pretty much all of us on this thread concluded we didn’t align with 100% of MMMs views.

Years ago I loved how simple MMM made early retirement look. 25x spending and the world your oyster. Somehow, it’s all become a bit more complicated than that. For me at least.

This! Our original was $2.0MM and a paid off house with the kids through college. We are technically there except the kids through college, so onward and level. I paused working in 2019, but the DH still works. Limbo land for at least another year. Our college spend is insane! Once that is finished I think we will have a much better idea of the true 25X.

Yeah, not looking forward to college spend with three kids but have put aside a bunch of $ that we don't include in our stash but it's probably still not enough.

There's an easy way around this... have them pay for their own education. Also, not everyone has to go to college.

A self funded gap year could make a huge difference in funding. It isn't all that easy to get yourself declared a non traditional student if you are under 25, and I certainly don't recommend anyone take the route I did (bad marriage), but it can open up some additional funding options.

This is part of our financial plan, so it’s saved/ budgeted for. Both DH and I didn’t get the benefit of family funding our college, and we don’t want that for our kids. We make WAY too much money for them to receive any kind of aid for school, so it isn’t really fair to tell them to pay for it when we can afford it. Our affluence is due to college educations in fields that are lucrative.

DH was going to quit in 2022, but found a new job last year for a start up that pays much less and for a 2 year contract. He got severance from his last position that fully funded the education. He’s satisfying a major itch he always had to “work at a start up”. So I am going along with it since it makes him happy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on January 30, 2022, 12:14:19 PM

Quote from: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 11:27:05 AM

Quote from: ixtap on January 30, 2022, 10:58:49 AM

Quote from: dividendman on January 30, 2022, 10:29:53 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 30, 2022, 09:19:31 AM

Quote from: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 09:00:22 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 29, 2022, 10:56:18 PM

Yes, I’d say pretty much all of us on this thread concluded we didn’t align with 100% of MMMs views.

Years ago I loved how simple MMM made early retirement look. 25x spending and the world your oyster. Somehow, it’s all become a bit more complicated than that. For me at least.

This! Our original was $2.0MM and a paid off house with the kids through college. We are technically there except the kids through college, so onward and level. I paused working in 2019, but the DH still works. Limbo land for at least another year. Our college spend is insane! Once that is finished I think we will have a much better idea of the true 25X.

Yeah, not looking forward to college spend with three kids but have put aside a bunch of $ that we don't include in our stash but it's probably still not enough.

There's an easy way around this... have them pay for their own education. Also, not everyone has to go to college.

A self funded gap year could make a huge difference in funding. It isn't all that easy to get yourself declared a non traditional student if you are under 25, and I certainly don't recommend anyone take the route I did (bad marriage), but it can open up some additional funding options.

This is part of our financial plan, so it’s saved/ budgeted for. Both DH and I didn’t get the benefit of family funding our college, and we don’t want that for our kids. We make WAY too much money for them to receive any kind of aid for school, so it isn’t really fair to tell them to pay for it when we can afford it. Our affluence is due to college educations in fields that are lucrative.

DH was going to quit in 2022, but found a new job last year for a start up that pays much less and for a 2 year contract. He got severance from his last position that fully funded the education. He’s satisfying a major itch he always had to “work at a start up”. So I am going along with it since it makes him happy.

That's how we feel too.  We both paid our own way with loans, got good jobs and worked hard/smart to work our way up the ladder and income.  It would seem highly selfish to me to FIRE and not plan for higher education at some level, doesn't have to be all of it.

I also agree that college isn't for everyone but that shouldn't preclude planning for it bc by the time they are college age and want to go it's too late at that point.   

Not to mention it's still possible we have them fund some of it or take out loans so they have a vested interest and pay them off later. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 04:17:37 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 30, 2022, 12:14:19 PM

Quote from: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 11:27:05 AM

Quote from: ixtap on January 30, 2022, 10:58:49 AM

Quote from: dividendman on January 30, 2022, 10:29:53 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 30, 2022, 09:19:31 AM

Quote from: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 09:00:22 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 29, 2022, 10:56:18 PM

Yes, I’d say pretty much all of us on this thread concluded we didn’t align with 100% of MMMs views.

Years ago I loved how simple MMM made early retirement look. 25x spending and the world your oyster. Somehow, it’s all become a bit more complicated than that. For me at least.

This! Our original was $2.0MM and a paid off house with the kids through college. We are technically there except the kids through college, so onward and level. I paused working in 2019, but the DH still works. Limbo land for at least another year. Our college spend is insane! Once that is finished I think we will have a much better idea of the true 25X.

Yeah, not looking forward to college spend with three kids but have put aside a bunch of $ that we don't include in our stash but it's probably still not enough.

There's an easy way around this... have them pay for their own education. Also, not everyone has to go to college.

A self funded gap year could make a huge difference in funding. It isn't all that easy to get yourself declared a non traditional student if you are under 25, and I certainly don't recommend anyone take the route I did (bad marriage), but it can open up some additional funding options.

This is part of our financial plan, so it’s saved/ budgeted for. Both DH and I didn’t get the benefit of family funding our college, and we don’t want that for our kids. We make WAY too much money for them to receive any kind of aid for school, so it isn’t really fair to tell them to pay for it when we can afford it. Our affluence is due to college educations in fields that are lucrative.

DH was going to quit in 2022, but found a new job last year for a start up that pays much less and for a 2 year contract. He got severance from his last position that fully funded the education. He’s satisfying a major itch he always had to “work at a start up”. So I am going along with it since it makes him happy.

That's how we feel too.  We both paid our own way with loans, got good jobs and worked hard/smart to work our way up the ladder and income.  It would seem highly selfish to me to FIRE and not plan for higher education at some level, doesn't have to be all of it.

I also agree that college isn't for everyone but that shouldn't preclude planning for it bc by the time they are college age and want to go it's too late at that point.   

Not to mention it's still possible we have them fund some of it or take out loans so they have a vested interest and pay them off later.

I tell them I am funding timeshare weeks at their future homes. LOL. $50K is a good timeshare week, right? So we will have 3 weeks or so per kid. Sounds about right.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on January 30, 2022, 05:18:54 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 30, 2022, 12:14:19 PM

Quote from: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 11:27:05 AM

Quote from: ixtap on January 30, 2022, 10:58:49 AM

Quote from: dividendman on January 30, 2022, 10:29:53 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 30, 2022, 09:19:31 AM

Quote from: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 09:00:22 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 29, 2022, 10:56:18 PM

Yes, I’d say pretty much all of us on this thread concluded we didn’t align with 100% of MMMs views.

Years ago I loved how simple MMM made early retirement look. 25x spending and the world your oyster. Somehow, it’s all become a bit more complicated than that. For me at least.

This! Our original was $2.0MM and a paid off house with the kids through college. We are technically there except the kids through college, so onward and level. I paused working in 2019, but the DH still works. Limbo land for at least another year. Our college spend is insane! Once that is finished I think we will have a much better idea of the true 25X.

Yeah, not looking forward to college spend with three kids but have put aside a bunch of $ that we don't include in our stash but it's probably still not enough.

There's an easy way around this... have them pay for their own education. Also, not everyone has to go to college.

A self funded gap year could make a huge difference in funding. It isn't all that easy to get yourself declared a non traditional student if you are under 25, and I certainly don't recommend anyone take the route I did (bad marriage), but it can open up some additional funding options.

This is part of our financial plan, so it’s saved/ budgeted for. Both DH and I didn’t get the benefit of family funding our college, and we don’t want that for our kids. We make WAY too much money for them to receive any kind of aid for school, so it isn’t really fair to tell them to pay for it when we can afford it. Our affluence is due to college educations in fields that are lucrative.

DH was going to quit in 2022, but found a new job last year for a start up that pays much less and for a 2 year contract. He got severance from his last position that fully funded the education. He’s satisfying a major itch he always had to “work at a start up”. So I am going along with it since it makes him happy.

That's how we feel too.  We both paid our own way with loans, got good jobs and worked hard/smart to work our way up the ladder and income.  It would seem highly selfish to me to FIRE and not plan for higher education at some level, doesn't have to be all of it.

I also agree that college isn't for everyone but that shouldn't preclude planning for it bc by the time they are college age and want to go it's too late at that point.   

Not to mention it's still possible we have them fund some of it or take out loans so they have a vested interest and pay them off later.

Agreed. Planning for college was part of our FIRE plan, and I wouldn't have REd if I thought that was in jeopardy. I can't not give my kids the same opportunities that I had. If they want to go a different direction that's fine I will help them do trade school and start their own business then.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 31, 2022, 07:17:48 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 30, 2022, 05:18:54 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 30, 2022, 12:14:19 PM

Quote from: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 11:27:05 AM

Quote from: ixtap on January 30, 2022, 10:58:49 AM

Quote from: dividendman on January 30, 2022, 10:29:53 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on January 30, 2022, 09:19:31 AM

Quote from: couponvan on January 30, 2022, 09:00:22 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on January 29, 2022, 10:56:18 PM

Yes, I’d say pretty much all of us on this thread concluded we didn’t align with 100% of MMMs views.

Years ago I loved how simple MMM made early retirement look. 25x spending and the world your oyster. Somehow, it’s all become a bit more complicated than that. For me at least.

This! Our original was $2.0MM and a paid off house with the kids through college. We are technically there except the kids through college, so onward and level. I paused working in 2019, but the DH still works. Limbo land for at least another year. Our college spend is insane! Once that is finished I think we will have a much better idea of the true 25X.

Yeah, not looking forward to college spend with three kids but have put aside a bunch of $ that we don't include in our stash but it's probably still not enough.

There's an easy way around this... have them pay for their own education. Also, not everyone has to go to college.

A self funded gap year could make a huge difference in funding. It isn't all that easy to get yourself declared a non traditional student if you are under 25, and I certainly don't recommend anyone take the route I did (bad marriage), but it can open up some additional funding options.

This is part of our financial plan, so it’s saved/ budgeted for. Both DH and I didn’t get the benefit of family funding our college, and we don’t want that for our kids. We make WAY too much money for them to receive any kind of aid for school, so it isn’t really fair to tell them to pay for it when we can afford it. Our affluence is due to college educations in fields that are lucrative.

DH was going to quit in 2022, but found a new job last year for a start up that pays much less and for a 2 year contract. He got severance from his last position that fully funded the education. He’s satisfying a major itch he always had to “work at a start up”. So I am going along with it since it makes him happy.

That's how we feel too.  We both paid our own way with loans, got good jobs and worked hard/smart to work our way up the ladder and income.  It would seem highly selfish to me to FIRE and not plan for higher education at some level, doesn't have to be all of it.

I also agree that college isn't for everyone but that shouldn't preclude planning for it bc by the time they are college age and want to go it's too late at that point.   

Not to mention it's still possible we have them fund some of it or take out loans so they have a vested interest and pay them off later.

Agreed. Planning for college was part of our FIRE plan, and I wouldn't have REd if I thought that was in jeopardy. I can't not give my kids the same opportunities that I had. If they want to go a different direction that's fine I will help them do trade school and start their own business then.

My plan for helping my 3 kids did change quite a bit when my salary took off, as I could do so much with just a couple years of work.  I have a very bucketed FIRE plan and separate 529s that fully fund 4 years at the state U for each kid was part of that.  I've told the kids after college graduation to expect no further financial help from me, but they can have whatever money is leftover in the 529 upon graduation, plus I'll buy them a new car at a graduation present if they give me their word they'll never go into any debt other than a mortgage.  My oldest is on target to graduate with a very nice chunk left over in the 529 due to some good choices, some working, and some scholarships.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 31, 2022, 07:48:52 AM

How do you give someone the "leftover" 529 money? Doesn't it still have to be spent on education?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on January 31, 2022, 08:11:24 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 31, 2022, 07:48:52 AM

How do you give someone the "leftover" 529 money? Doesn't it still have to be spent on education?

You can just pay the taxes on the cash out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 31, 2022, 09:26:12 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 31, 2022, 08:11:24 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 31, 2022, 07:48:52 AM

How do you give someone the "leftover" 529 money? Doesn't it still have to be spent on education?

You can just pay the taxes on the cash out.

There are a couple of options.

You can make the now-graduated young adult the owner of the account.  They can then disburse it themselves for graduate school.  Or they can keep it as a starter 529 for their future children's educations.  Both these options really mean that the money remains tax free and is spent on education as @Dicey is thinking.

Or you can disburse the money to them.  This is generally a non-qualified distribution.  To the extent not used for qualified educational expenses, the earnings portion of the distribution is subject to ordinary income tax (via Schedule 1 Line 8 Other income).  Note that it is the earnings portion only; any amount that is return of your contribution is not taxable at the federal level.  The earnings portion is provided in box 2 of Form 1099-Q.  Thus one generally does not have to pay taxes on all of the cash out.

There is a discrepancy between the law and the IRS publication on this, but if you do things a certain way, that other income is on the young adult's return, not the parents.  In this scenario, if you do the disbursement while they're still a student, then it probably gets taxed very lightly if at all because the student is likely to have a low-ish income.

Non-qualified distributions are also generally subject to a 10% penalty, calculated on Form 5329 Part II.  There are exceptions which can excuse the penalty.  My personal favorite is the scholarship exemption - all three of my kids earned enough scholarships for any non-qualified distributions to be exempt from the 10% penalty.  There are other exceptions as well.

There may also be state income tax ramifications for such distributions.  Check your state for details.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 31, 2022, 11:44:26 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 31, 2022, 09:26:12 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 31, 2022, 08:11:24 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 31, 2022, 07:48:52 AM

How do you give someone the "leftover" 529 money? Doesn't it still have to be spent on education?

You can just pay the taxes on the cash out.

There are a couple of options.

You can make the now-graduated young adult the owner of the account.  They can then disburse it themselves for graduate school.  Or they can keep it as a starter 529 for their future children's educations.  Both these options really mean that the money remains tax free and is spent on education as @Dicey is thinking.

Or you can disburse the money to them.  This is generally a non-qualified distribution.  To the extent not used for qualified educational expenses, the earnings portion of the distribution is subject to ordinary income tax (via Schedule 1 Line 8 Other income).  Note that it is the earnings portion only; any amount that is return of your contribution is not taxable at the federal level.  The earnings portion is provided in box 2 of Form 1099-Q.  Thus one generally does not have to pay taxes on all of the cash out.

There is a discrepancy between the law and the IRS publication on this, but if you do things a certain way, that other income is on the young adult's return, not the parents.  In this scenario, if you do the disbursement while they're still a student, then it probably gets taxed very lightly if at all because the student is likely to have a low-ish income.

Non-qualified distributions are also generally subject to a 10% penalty, calculated on Form 5329 Part II.  There are exceptions which can excuse the penalty.  My personal favorite is the scholarship exemption - all three of my kids earned enough scholarships for any non-qualified distributions to be exempt from the 10% penalty.  There are other exceptions as well.

There may also be state income tax ramifications for such distributions.  Check your state for details.

Great answers and kinda a summary of the things I'm thinking thru.  In the end, the fact that the penalty and taxes are only on the gains, and that I can decide between who to distribute it to for the tax calculation (me w/ very low FIRED income?  kid before full year of working so low income?) I'm already just assuming a penalty/tax hit but not as large as one may think.  And yes, the scholarship exemption also helps for our situation. In the end if I have cash on me at the time I may just give the kid cash and hold onto the 529 until I need it for one reason or another (which I would have thought would have been to go to grandchildren...but as of today at least all my kids tell me they are gonna remain single and childless ;-)  Maybe I'll just transfer the ownership of the 529 itself to the child and he can make those kinds of decisions (my youngest is already a money expert so he'd be a good one for that choice and let him figure it out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on January 31, 2022, 01:48:40 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 31, 2022, 09:26:12 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 31, 2022, 08:11:24 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 31, 2022, 07:48:52 AM

How do you give someone the "leftover" 529 money? Doesn't it still have to be spent on education?

You can just pay the taxes on the cash out.

There are a couple of options.

You can make the now-graduated young adult the owner of the account.  They can then disburse it themselves for graduate school.  Or they can keep it as a starter 529 for their future children's educations.  Both these options really mean that the money remains tax free and is spent on education as @Dicey is thinking.

Or you can disburse the money to them.  This is generally a non-qualified distribution.  To the extent not used for qualified educational expenses, the earnings portion of the distribution is subject to ordinary income tax (via Schedule 1 Line 8 Other income).  Note that it is the earnings portion only; any amount that is return of your contribution is not taxable at the federal level.  The earnings portion is provided in box 2 of Form 1099-Q.  Thus one generally does not have to pay taxes on all of the cash out.

There is a discrepancy between the law and the IRS publication on this, but if you do things a certain way, that other income is on the young adult's return, not the parents.  In this scenario, if you do the disbursement while they're still a student, then it probably gets taxed very lightly if at all because the student is likely to have a low-ish income.

Non-qualified distributions are also generally subject to a 10% penalty, calculated on Form 5329 Part II.  There are exceptions which can excuse the penalty.  My personal favorite is the scholarship exemption - all three of my kids earned enough scholarships for any non-qualified distributions to be exempt from the 10% penalty.  There are other exceptions as well.

There may also be state income tax ramifications for such distributions.  Check your state for details.

Hey I learned some new things! Thanks for posting this!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on February 02, 2022, 05:12:36 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 12:08:39 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 29, 2022, 12:01:23 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 29, 2022, 08:17:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 07:20:05 AM

Well, withdrawal rate doesn’t tell me much anyway. What does withdrawal mean anyway, moving money between accounts and potentially reclassifying tax status?

I don't know how other people use the term, but for me I calculate WR as actual spending divided by FIRE stash.  So buying groceries would be actual spending and thus part of my WR.  Moving money between accounts is just a transfer to me, and thus pretty much ignored.  Of course things like Roth conversions or realizing capital gains has tax impacts, which can result in taxes paid, which I also count as actual spending and thus part of my WR.

Very roughly speaking, WR can be a first gauge at whether someone is spending sustainably.  Of course age, risk tolerance, spending flexibility, life expectancy, AA, and a whole host of other factors enter into play.  But if I say I'm 52 and have a WR of about 1%, one can pretty safely conclude that I'm being reasonably safe and probably too conservative.

After aggressively playing with some of the 4% assumptions, 1.2% SWR and lower never fails (except fat tails).  This includes a skewed return distribution, higher volatility of returns, lower real return.  Did not include fat tails as I assume this will bust all plans.  Fat tail would be up 50%, then down 50%, up 50% down 50% and repeat until all SWR fail.  2% is relatively safe, 3% and 4% fail with small changes in above estimation characteristics over 50-year time periods (FIRE durations).     

Being this safe feels like the equivalent of driving an army tank around the city to avoid getting hurt in a car accident. I guess there is a chance someone could fire a bazooka at ya and maybe then tank would help then?

Heck, maybe all of us in this thread are already in our own army tank and we don’t even recognize it :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I may estimate that I am more aware of bad outcomes due to random events.  People rarely share these but when one works in financial services for a time, you can see the carnage that occurs to good people.  I remember seeing a credit report of a guy that had several personal million dollar houses who couldn't get a car loan 5 years later.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on February 02, 2022, 05:16:49 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 29, 2022, 02:49:28 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 12:08:39 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 29, 2022, 12:01:23 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 29, 2022, 08:17:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 07:20:05 AM

Well, withdrawal rate doesn’t tell me much anyway. What does withdrawal mean anyway, moving money between accounts and potentially reclassifying tax status?

I don't know how other people use the term, but for me I calculate WR as actual spending divided by FIRE stash.  So buying groceries would be actual spending and thus part of my WR.  Moving money between accounts is just a transfer to me, and thus pretty much ignored.  Of course things like Roth conversions or realizing capital gains has tax impacts, which can result in taxes paid, which I also count as actual spending and thus part of my WR.

Very roughly speaking, WR can be a first gauge at whether someone is spending sustainably.  Of course age, risk tolerance, spending flexibility, life expectancy, AA, and a whole host of other factors enter into play.  But if I say I'm 52 and have a WR of about 1%, one can pretty safely conclude that I'm being reasonably safe and probably too conservative.

After aggressively playing with some of the 4% assumptions, 1.2% SWR and lower never fails (except fat tails).  This includes a skewed return distribution, higher volatility of returns, lower real return.  Did not include fat tails as I assume this will bust all plans.  Fat tail would be up 50%, then down 50%, up 50% down 50% and repeat until all SWR fail.  2% is relatively safe, 3% and 4% fail with small changes in above estimation characteristics over 50-year time periods (FIRE durations).     

Being this safe feels like the equivalent of driving an army tank around the city to avoid getting hurt in a car accident. I guess there is a chance someone could fire a bazooka at ya and maybe then tank would help then?
Heck, maybe all of us in this thread are already in our own army tank and we don’t even recognize it :-)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If only temporal fears (e.g. fears about what life and The Market will be doing 30 years from now) could be made so simple as these physical, imminent fears...  That's why this stuff is so 'discussable' - like a game of Chess (but exponentially more complex).  Unfortunately, I do not foresee DaTrill to be the FI version of Magnus Carlsen.  But I also think MMM has run his course...

No fears, just recognizing the realities of the tape.  Meta is the third of the generals to get gapped down 20% in a day (tomorrow), this only happens in bear markets.  I will be much better if the market continues to rip, but recognizing that the stage is set for a grind lower.  Not a gloom and doomer, but 4% has worked well in a bull market.  There are many issues with the same strategy in a bear market for those in the bear market, not for one that is looking back in time.     

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 03, 2022, 02:59:16 AM

In other news, while I no longer track things as closely as I did in the acquisition years, periodically I take a quick NW snapshot, typically calculated on a post-it note and then tossed. The prompt is usually a Redfin or Zillow ping detailing their revised estimate of property value. That happened this week, so I hastily checked estimates and account balances and scribbled some numbers. My hasty tally was shocking. I've been walking around in kind of a daze over it all week. (We're worth what??) Today I realized I hadn't subtracted the rental property mortgages. Whew!

I don't know if I'll ever get used to seeing these insanely high numbers. I am simply amazed at how well this shit works.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on February 03, 2022, 06:50:03 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 02, 2022, 05:12:36 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 12:08:39 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 29, 2022, 12:01:23 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 29, 2022, 08:17:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 07:20:05 AM

Well, withdrawal rate doesn’t tell me much anyway. What does withdrawal mean anyway, moving money between accounts and potentially reclassifying tax status?

I don't know how other people use the term, but for me I calculate WR as actual spending divided by FIRE stash.  So buying groceries would be actual spending and thus part of my WR.  Moving money between accounts is just a transfer to me, and thus pretty much ignored.  Of course things like Roth conversions or realizing capital gains has tax impacts, which can result in taxes paid, which I also count as actual spending and thus part of my WR.

Very roughly speaking, WR can be a first gauge at whether someone is spending sustainably.  Of course age, risk tolerance, spending flexibility, life expectancy, AA, and a whole host of other factors enter into play.  But if I say I'm 52 and have a WR of about 1%, one can pretty safely conclude that I'm being reasonably safe and probably too conservative.

After aggressively playing with some of the 4% assumptions, 1.2% SWR and lower never fails (except fat tails).  This includes a skewed return distribution, higher volatility of returns, lower real return.  Did not include fat tails as I assume this will bust all plans.  Fat tail would be up 50%, then down 50%, up 50% down 50% and repeat until all SWR fail.  2% is relatively safe, 3% and 4% fail with small changes in above estimation characteristics over 50-year time periods (FIRE durations).     

Being this safe feels like the equivalent of driving an army tank around the city to avoid getting hurt in a car accident. I guess there is a chance someone could fire a bazooka at ya and maybe then tank would help then?

Heck, maybe all of us in this thread are already in our own army tank and we don’t even recognize it :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I may estimate that I am more aware of bad outcomes due to random events.  People rarely share these but when one works in financial services for a time, you can see the carnage that occurs to good people.  I remember seeing a credit report of a guy that had several personal million dollar houses who couldn't get a car loan 5 years later.   

Yeah, that isn't even remotely the same thing as suggesting that 1% is a safe WR. That's someone who was over leveraged, and it happens all the time.

If I use 1% as a my WR, with a net worth of $4M I'll have $40k a year to spend. Not bad, but that would be tight for our family of four. It would make my kids rich though. Meanwhile if I took the $4M (lets say I moved it to cash for fun) and divided it by the 50 years I'll likely be retired I could spend $80k per year.

If you really want to see how this stuff works go do a CFIRESIM calculation and dump down the results into excel and look at all the years it covers and the various outcomes for each data set. You can see each year that had negative returns and the dividends for those years etc.  Then explain to me why the future could be so drastically different than all the various past events.

Personally through the modeling I found that I feel most comfortable at a 2.75% WD. Then, if our portfolio takes a 30% haircut, we move up to a 4% WD until it recovers again. That also gives us wiggle room for all the unexpected events that will happen over the next 50 years. (should we be so lucky to live to see 95 and in good health)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 03, 2022, 07:27:59 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 02, 2022, 05:16:49 PM

No fears, just recognizing the realities of the tape.  Meta is the third of the generals to get gapped down 20% in a day (tomorrow), this only happens in bear markets.  I will be much better if the market continues to rip, but recognizing that the stage is set for a grind lower.  Not a gloom and doomer, but 4% has worked well in a bull market.  There are many issues with the same strategy in a bear market for those in the bear market, not for one that is looking back in time.   

No fears?  Not a gloom and doomer?  You might want to check the tape...

Not that I don't have any sympathy for your expectation of tougher times ahead - this is an historic bull market that might be coming to an end - but 1% SWR is akin to saying we are just starting our Japan epoch.  Even if you were from the future and knew that were the case, saying that in advance lumps you in fretful doomers and gloomers.  Just own it.  Also, fill us in on what brilliant moves you are making along the way (I've seen you on the Top Is In (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/top-is-in/msg2970112/#msg2970112) thread), not this "in hindsight I did everything right" business.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 03, 2022, 08:20:59 AM

Well, the rollover of an old 401K to Vanguard went smoothly.   Prices went down 10% between the time the check was cut and it was turned back into the same S&P 500 fund.    So I got a bonus of 10% of shares on that set of investments.  :)   S&P 500 is down 5.8% for the year now, so we've made a gain on the transaction in dollar terms (for the moment).

Pure dumb luck on my part. :)

Speaking of pure dumb luck, the property valuations for our home, 4 rental houses, mortgage note on property we sold, and our inherited farmland are way higher than they were two years ago.

Dec 31, 2020:  $1,319,021
Feb  3, 2020:  $2,620,260

A big chunk of that is due to a more current valuation on the farmland.   Good farmland doesn't go up for sale very often so it's harder for people like me, 800 miles away, to properly value it.

But our rental homes are now valued at 2 to 3 times what we put into them to purchase them and make them rent-ready.   As we change tenants we'll be able to raise the rent a goodly bit.   (Don't really want to do that to current tenants.)

Even our personal home is valued at 25% more than we paid for it.   

Crazy times.   The valuations don't seem real to me but apparently, they are. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 03, 2022, 08:36:16 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 03, 2022, 08:20:59 AM

Well, the rollover of an old 401K to Vanguard went smoothly.   Prices went down 10% between the time the check was cut and it was turned back into the same S&P 500 fund.    So I got a bonus of 10% of shares on that set of investments.  :)   S&P 500 is down 5.8% for the year now, so we've made a gain on the transaction in dollar terms (for the moment).

Pure dumb luck on my part. :)

Speaking of pure dumb luck, the property valuations for our home, 4 rental houses, mortgage note on property we sold, and our inherited farmland are way higher than they were two years ago.

Dec 31, 2020:  $1,319,021
Feb  3, 2020:  $2,620,260

A big chunk of that is due to a more current valuation on the farmland.   Good farmland doesn't go up for sale very often so it's harder for people like me, 800 miles away, to properly value it.

But our rental homes are now valued at 2 to 3 times what we put into them to purchase them and make them rent-ready.   As we change tenants we'll be able to raise the rent a goodly bit.   (Don't really want to do that to current tenants.)

Even our personal home is valued at 25% more than we paid for it.   

Crazy times.   The valuations don't seem real to me but apparently, they are.

These are crazy times for real estate for sure, driven in a large part by low interest rates and generous borrowing terms.  If I were young and aspiring, I'd be buying up all the real estate I could get my hands on!  For those of us on the other side, I'm just glad I'm not in the market for buying a primary residence or trying to start out as a farmer.  Not a good place to be for the US long term, but when has anyone ever thought long term... LOL?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 03, 2022, 09:24:45 AM

@EscapeVelocity2020 , I would be far happier if every working person received a decent wage for their work, disabled or sick people got the health care they needed, the disabled were given a decent income because our society is composed of decent human beings with empathy, and everyone could afford a nice place to live, be it home ownership or renting (their choice).

But, hey, this is America, the land of "I got mine, so F* you!".   

I'll keep working and dreaming for the former, but the latter is what we've got right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on February 03, 2022, 04:34:47 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 03, 2022, 06:50:03 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 02, 2022, 05:12:36 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 12:08:39 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on January 29, 2022, 12:01:23 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 29, 2022, 08:17:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 29, 2022, 07:20:05 AM

Well, withdrawal rate doesn’t tell me much anyway. What does withdrawal mean anyway, moving money between accounts and potentially reclassifying tax status?

I don't know how other people use the term, but for me I calculate WR as actual spending divided by FIRE stash.  So buying groceries would be actual spending and thus part of my WR.  Moving money between accounts is just a transfer to me, and thus pretty much ignored.  Of course things like Roth conversions or realizing capital gains has tax impacts, which can result in taxes paid, which I also count as actual spending and thus part of my WR.

Very roughly speaking, WR can be a first gauge at whether someone is spending sustainably.  Of course age, risk tolerance, spending flexibility, life expectancy, AA, and a whole host of other factors enter into play.  But if I say I'm 52 and have a WR of about 1%, one can pretty safely conclude that I'm being reasonably safe and probably too conservative.

After aggressively playing with some of the 4% assumptions, 1.2% SWR and lower never fails (except fat tails).  This includes a skewed return distribution, higher volatility of returns, lower real return.  Did not include fat tails as I assume this will bust all plans.  Fat tail would be up 50%, then down 50%, up 50% down 50% and repeat until all SWR fail.  2% is relatively safe, 3% and 4% fail with small changes in above estimation characteristics over 50-year time periods (FIRE durations).     

Being this safe feels like the equivalent of driving an army tank around the city to avoid getting hurt in a car accident. I guess there is a chance someone could fire a bazooka at ya and maybe then tank would help then?

Heck, maybe all of us in this thread are already in our own army tank and we don’t even recognize it :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I may estimate that I am more aware of bad outcomes due to random events.  People rarely share these but when one works in financial services for a time, you can see the carnage that occurs to good people.  I remember seeing a credit report of a guy that had several personal million dollar houses who couldn't get a car loan 5 years later.   

Yeah, that isn't even remotely the same thing as suggesting that 1% is a safe WR. That's someone who was over leveraged, and it happens all the time.

If I use 1% as a my WR, with a net worth of $4M I'll have $40k a year to spend. Not bad, but that would be tight for our family of four. It would make my kids rich though. Meanwhile if I took the $4M (lets say I moved it to cash for fun) and divided it by the 50 years I'll likely be retired I could spend $80k per year.

If you really want to see how this stuff works go do a CFIRESIM calculation and dump down the results into excel and look at all the years it covers and the various outcomes for each data set. You can see each year that had negative returns and the dividends for those years etc.  Then explain to me why the future could be so drastically different than all the various past events.

Personally through the modeling I found that I feel most comfortable at a 2.75% WD. Then, if our portfolio takes a 30% haircut, we move up to a 4% WD until it recovers again. That also gives us wiggle room for all the unexpected events that will happen over the next 50 years. (should we be so lucky to live to see 95 and in good health)

 CFIRESIM and other calculators I've seen (only started looking for about a year) make some assumptions we know are not true, mostly returns will be normally distributed and past return volatility will be the same as future return volatility (or worse, if fat tails appear which busts all FIRE plans and covered in "Statistical consequences of fat tails).  These are stats concepts covered in most introduction to stats courses, in several Nassim Taleb books and even Stats for Dummies I and II (which are an incredible books).   

Another assumption is that the last 100 years is a population of returns and not a sample.  If it's only a sample, then many corrections must be made to any estimate using the models.  Every calculator I've seen assume the last 100 years (or whatever time period used) is the population, meaning the markets have experienced all potential outcomes in the last 100 years, in other words, "History is over" which we know is not true.

These are boring stats critiques, but stats are used to generate these estimates and ignoring the weaknesses in the model is not wise.         

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on February 03, 2022, 04:41:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 03, 2022, 07:27:59 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 02, 2022, 05:16:49 PM

No fears, just recognizing the realities of the tape.  Meta is the third of the generals to get gapped down 20% in a day (tomorrow), this only happens in bear markets.  I will be much better if the market continues to rip, but recognizing that the stage is set for a grind lower.  Not a gloom and doomer, but 4% has worked well in a bull market.  There are many issues with the same strategy in a bear market for those in the bear market, not for one that is looking back in time.   

No fears?  Not a gloom and doomer?  You might want to check the tape...

Not that I don't have any sympathy for your expectation of tougher times ahead - this is an historic bull market that might be coming to an end - but 1% SWR is akin to saying we are just starting our Japan epoch.  Even if you were from the future and knew that were the case, saying that in advance lumps you in fretful doomers and gloomers.  Just own it.  Also, fill us in on what brilliant moves you are making along the way (I've seen you on the Top Is In (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/top-is-in/msg2970112/#msg2970112) thread), not this "in hindsight I did everything right" business.

Don't shoot the messenger.  I'm far far from ever ticking the top or bottom, but posted as I've basically taken $4 mil off the table and explained the NFLX gap down is the "ringing of the bell" for me.  I will be much richer and better off if this is a correction but having experienced several bear markets in many different asset classes, I posted my decision process. 

Roughly long the same equity as near the bottom of March 2020 (didn't track that closely) but also have as much cash as equity as the main reason IMHO for the rip from that point has been the Fed and they appear to be taking away the punchbowl.  This could be a head fake and JP might keep spiking the markets, but inflation is brutal and creeping up.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 03, 2022, 05:09:09 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 03, 2022, 04:41:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 03, 2022, 07:27:59 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 02, 2022, 05:16:49 PM

No fears, just recognizing the realities of the tape.  Meta is the third of the generals to get gapped down 20% in a day (tomorrow), this only happens in bear markets.  I will be much better if the market continues to rip, but recognizing that the stage is set for a grind lower.  Not a gloom and doomer, but 4% has worked well in a bull market.  There are many issues with the same strategy in a bear market for those in the bear market, not for one that is looking back in time.   

No fears?  Not a gloom and doomer?  You might want to check the tape...

Not that I don't have any sympathy for your expectation of tougher times ahead - this is an historic bull market that might be coming to an end - but 1% SWR is akin to saying we are just starting our Japan epoch.  Even if you were from the future and knew that were the case, saying that in advance lumps you in fretful doomers and gloomers.  Just own it.  Also, fill us in on what brilliant moves you are making along the way (I've seen you on the Top Is In (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/top-is-in/msg2970112/#msg2970112) thread), not this "in hindsight I did everything right" business.

Don't shoot the messenger.  I'm far far from ever ticking the top or bottom, but posted as I've basically taken $4 mil off the table and explained the NFLX gap down is the "ringing of the bell" for me.  I will be much richer and better off if this is a correction but having experienced several bear markets in many different asset classes, I posted my decision process. 

Roughly long the same equity as near the bottom of March 2020 (didn't track that closely) but also have as much cash as equity as the main reason IMHO for the rip from that point has been the Fed and they appear to be taking away the punchbowl.  This could be a head fake and JP might keep spiking the markets, but inflation is brutal and creeping up.   

That's just the thing though, when exactly did you take $4M 'off the table' and where is is positioned?  I'm well balanced, and I have a journal showing my moves in and out of the market.  You just kinda started posting when the market started to tank.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 04, 2022, 06:01:07 AM

DaTrill is daTroll....onlybshows up when market cracks spewing ridiculousness crap

ALERT.....stop engaging!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 04, 2022, 07:02:29 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 04, 2022, 06:01:07 AM

DaTrill is daTroll....onlybshows up when market cracks spewing ridiculousness crap

ALERT.....stop engaging!

Thanks - Pretty cool that his name almost says it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 04, 2022, 08:26:51 AM

Quote from: pecunia on February 04, 2022, 07:02:29 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 04, 2022, 06:01:07 AM

DaTrill is daTroll....onlybshows up when market cracks spewing ridiculousness crap

ALERT.....stop engaging!

Thanks - Pretty cool that his name almost says it.

Not that cool at all, IMO.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: swaneesr on February 04, 2022, 10:32:04 AM

Quote from: Dicey on February 04, 2022, 08:26:51 AM

Quote from: pecunia on February 04, 2022, 07:02:29 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 04, 2022, 06:01:07 AM

DaTrill is daTroll....onlybshows up when market cracks spewing ridiculousness crap

ALERT.....stop engaging!

Thanks - Pretty cool that his name almost says it.

Not that cool at all, IMO.

+1

Not cool at all if true.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on February 05, 2022, 12:40:06 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 04, 2022, 06:01:07 AM

DaTrill is daTroll....onlybshows up when market cracks spewing ridiculousness crap

ALERT.....stop engaging!

Nope, not a troll.  What is ridiculous?  The blind allegiance to some of the metrics used in early retirement blogs is shocking to me.  The risks people are taking in some of the assumptions is astounding only matched by the resistance to knowledge.  Please read some of Taleb's books and watch his MOOCS as he goes into great detail on models with bad assumptions and the problems they cause.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on February 05, 2022, 12:48:38 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 03, 2022, 05:09:09 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 03, 2022, 04:41:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 03, 2022, 07:27:59 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 02, 2022, 05:16:49 PM

No fears, just recognizing the realities of the tape.  Meta is the third of the generals to get gapped down 20% in a day (tomorrow), this only happens in bear markets.  I will be much better if the market continues to rip, but recognizing that the stage is set for a grind lower.  Not a gloom and doomer, but 4% has worked well in a bull market.  There are many issues with the same strategy in a bear market for those in the bear market, not for one that is looking back in time.   

No fears?  Not a gloom and doomer?  You might want to check the tape...

Not that I don't have any sympathy for your expectation of tougher times ahead - this is an historic bull market that might be coming to an end - but 1% SWR is akin to saying we are just starting our Japan epoch.  Even if you were from the future and knew that were the case, saying that in advance lumps you in fretful doomers and gloomers.  Just own it.  Also, fill us in on what brilliant moves you are making along the way (I've seen you on the Top Is In (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/top-is-in/msg2970112/#msg2970112) thread), not this "in hindsight I did everything right" business.

Don't shoot the messenger.  I'm far far from ever ticking the top or bottom, but posted as I've basically taken $4 mil off the table and explained the NFLX gap down is the "ringing of the bell" for me.  I will be much richer and better off if this is a correction but having experienced several bear markets in many different asset classes, I posted my decision process. 

Roughly long the same equity as near the bottom of March 2020 (didn't track that closely) but also have as much cash as equity as the main reason IMHO for the rip from that point has been the Fed and they appear to be taking away the punchbowl.  This could be a head fake and JP might keep spiking the markets, but inflation is brutal and creeping up.   

That's just the thing though, when exactly did you take $4M 'off the table' and where is is positioned?  I'm well balanced, and I have a journal showing my moves in and out of the market.  You just kinda started posting when the market started to tank.

50% boring index, 50% Cash, some CDs.  Will start rolling CDs again after rates go up above 1%.  Stopped when yields went below 1% (what's the point).  As I stated before, the ringing of the bell for me was NFLX tanking 20% in a day.  Sold that day, until I was roughly 50/50.  Was fully invested before that. 

Started posting about 6 months ago as I was exploring mid-year ACA in different states, but WFH was extended until end of year 2022 (might expand further).  I have no experience with ACA but have a lot of experience with markets and stats.  A forum is only valuable if everyone contributes.  I'll be much richer (still well into the 7 figures) if the market rips but sharing my extensive experience in the markets.  Down 7% YTD, perfectly happy if I only half the market performance in either direction for the near future.  Never short a bear market, cover rallies are vicious.       

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 05, 2022, 01:26:04 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 05, 2022, 12:48:38 PM

50% boring index, 50% Cash, some CDs.  Will start rolling CDs again after rates go up above 1%.  Stopped when yields went below 1% (what's the point).  As I stated before, the ringing of the bell for me was NFLX tanking 20% in a day.  Sold that day, until I was roughly 50/50.  Was fully invested before that. 
 

So, about 50% of your portfolio is losing value to inflation.    You'll make money if you correctly pick the bottom and buy back in, and you'll lose money if you really get it wrong.

I'm not selling my stock anytime soon, so I'm earning dividends which are higher than CD or savings account interest.   I won't make as much money as you would if you get it right and won't lose anything if I guess wrong about the bottom of the market. 

I'm already rich, I'm already retired, so I don't need extra risk.  I just need good enough returns over the long term. 

Here's what market news looks like, all on the same day:

"Yammer, yammer, yammer, which proves the market will go up!"

"Blah, blah, blah, which proves the market will go down!"

Since so very many people whose job it is to know what the market will do are wrong almost all the time, why would I think I could do better?   

The answer is, I don't.

You, apparently, think you can do better.  It will be interesting for the rest of us if you post what you do as you do it (not afterwards).   Then we can see how right you are.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on February 05, 2022, 07:05:05 PM

Well, on a topic other than @DaTrill 's views of the market and retirement rules, I took the step today of updating my spreadsheet with the losses from January --- there is something psychological about that that actually makes me feel better to see the updated numbers in spreadsheet and have the sense that its less money but its the new foundation to start building on again.  Weird how somehow seeing it in pixels on a screen helps in a weird way!

I do have the sense that we're in for kind of a sideways year in 2022 and I'm sure there will be some bumps in the road ahead.  But I am a subscriber to the old adage that "time in the market" is more reliable that "timing the market."

I just find it a strangely healthy exercise and wonder if anyone else has a similar view.  I think many of us agree that 2021 seemed to get a bit ahead of itself by mid-year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 05, 2022, 07:58:26 PM

I think it's helpful too.

Not only that, but I've found that back-tracking to when the market reached that valuation is very helpful.

For example, when the market dropped in January, I realized that 6 months earlier I had been celebrating that market index as an all time high.   I mean, if I was breaking out champagne and shouting for joy six months ago, why feel down in the dumps today at the same market valuation?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on February 05, 2022, 09:59:17 PM

Met with the financial advisor today. For many years his update was “stay the course, rebalance and keep same asset allocations and investments”. Today was the first time in many years he recommended a few no so immaterial changes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 06, 2022, 03:59:15 AM

@DaTrill , just curious whether you considered the tax implications before selling out 50%

I considered it in my case.

As I’m still working and get taxed in the top marginal tax rate of around 50%, and given most of my holdings are worth much more than I bought in at, if I sell I will trigger a massive capital gains tax liability (Australia).

I concluded that the certainty of tax was worse than the uncertainty that markets may tank and I’d get lucky with my market timing.

How much tax did you incur through your fire sale?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 06, 2022, 06:00:37 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 05, 2022, 07:58:26 PM

I think it's helpful too.

Not only that, but I've found that back-tracking to when the market reached that valuation is very helpful.

For example, when the market dropped in January, I realized that 6 months earlier I had been celebrating that market index as an all time high.   I mean, if I was breaking out champagne and shouting for joy six months ago, why feel down in the dumps today at the same market valuation?

+1

Plus what really helps me put any drop in perspective is considering the frequency.  Over the last hundred years we've had a correction every 1.5 years and a 20% drop every 4 years.  So its a come to Jesus moment when asking oneself are you really gonna freak out 27 times over a 40 year retirement (or 10 times for a bear market), or am I just gonna accept this is expected and why I'm using a 4% SWR instead of 6 or 7%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on February 06, 2022, 06:47:16 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 05, 2022, 07:58:26 PM

I think it's helpful too.

Not only that, but I've found that back-tracking to when the market reached that valuation is very helpful.

For example, when the market dropped in January, I realized that 6 months earlier I had been celebrating that market index as an all time high.   I mean, if I was breaking out champagne and shouting for joy six months ago, why feel down in the dumps today at the same market valuation?

Exactly....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jrhampt on February 07, 2022, 08:56:28 AM

I remember in March 2020 when the market tanked.  I calculated my monthly net worth as usual and realized I was ok with the drop, and it actually wasn't quite as bad as I thought it would be (I was about 80/20 stock/bonds+cash).  Just that relatively low percentage in bonds/cash helped cushion the drop and made me ok with doing nothing (even though in retrospect I should have doubled down on my automated investments).  And it rebounded very nicely from that low.  Following this correction, I updated my net worth calculations as usual this month and went, eh, I'm still a millionaire.  And I invested some extra cash. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 07, 2022, 03:21:15 PM

I’m late to the @DaTrill race-to-the-bottom conversation but I can’t help but five in. Michael Kitces is a voice I respect a lot in the retirement analysis and advisor space for his nerdy and deep work. Here is an excerpt from an old podcast interview with the Mad Fientist.

“Michael Kitces: Yeah. You know, as bad as it can get when you get these bad sequences, what we still ultimately found is it still doesn’t seem to get any worse than about 4%.
Even when we look at horrible time periods like if you retired in 1929 on the eve of the Great Depression, the market went down about 85% in the first three years. Fortunately, if you had a diversified portfolio with some bonds in there, you mitigated that a little bit.
But that’s horrific, truly horrific. It makes the financial crisis look mild by comparison. But the market really did go down about 85% from top to bottom from 1929 to 1932. Yet the 4% rule worked through that time period—the combination, the diversification, and keeping our spending modest, and frankly, the fact that the Great Depression had a lot of deflation which is really bad economically, but is technically good if you’re a retiree. It means, bad news, the market went down; the good news, you don’t need as much for your portfolio anyways because everything got cheaper (because that’s what happens with deflation, the stock gets cheaper).
And so, this 4% initial withdrawal rate worked.”

https://www.madfientist.com/michael-kitces-interview/

He goes on and has talked about this same thing on many other podcast with other people. I could listen to him talk about safe withdrawal rates for ever because I am that dorky. In any case he has looked into this deeply and I appreciate his optimism about the robustness of a withdrawal rate around 4%.
He notes that for a FIREee something more like 3.5% is appropriate for really long retirement periods.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 07, 2022, 03:26:03 PM

I was listening to a podcast last night doing dishes that walked through the detailed mechanics of how to tax loss harvest in a Vanguard account. That gave me a kick in the butt to look into it further. I’m still kicking myself for not having had the brain bandwidth to do it in March 2020. I knew it was a perfect time to do it but I hadn’t done it before and with a newborn and school and daycare closed and Covid I was just barely hanging on. Now that we are both not working I am not sure it makes a ton of sense. I still have some reading to do there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on February 08, 2022, 02:33:33 PM

I could see in a worst-case scenario wanting to take DaTrill's 1% WR approach, but only if I were a Trill with multiple life spans (DS9 reference).  Even if my life expectancy were 50 years (which it unfortunately isn't at this point), I could always just put everything into TIPS and pull out 2% each year.  Of course that depends on the US Gov't continuing to pay out its debt etc., but if you don't envision this happening, I'm not sure that 1% WR is going to work out any better than 2 or 3.5 or 4 or...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on February 08, 2022, 03:54:32 PM

Quote from: jeroly on February 08, 2022, 02:33:33 PM

I could see in a worst-case scenario wanting to take DaTrill's 1% WR approach, but only if I were a Trill with multiple life spans (DS9 reference).  Even if my life expectancy were 50 years (which it unfortunately isn't at this point), I could always just put everything into TIPS and pull out 2% each year.  Of course that depends on the US Gov't continuing to pay out its debt etc., but if you don't envision this happening, I'm not sure that 1% WR is going to work out any better than 2 or 3.5 or 4 or...

If that happens I'm going to convert my dollars to potatoes so at least we'll eat.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on February 08, 2022, 03:55:31 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 07, 2022, 03:21:15 PM

I’m late to the @DaTrill race-to-the-bottom conversation but I can’t help but five in. Michael Kitces is a voice I respect a lot in the retirement analysis and advisor space for his nerdy and deep work. Here is an excerpt from an old podcast interview with the Mad Fientist.

“Michael Kitces: Yeah. You know, as bad as it can get when you get these bad sequences, what we still ultimately found is it still doesn’t seem to get any worse than about 4%.
Even when we look at horrible time periods like if you retired in 1929 on the eve of the Great Depression, the market went down about 85% in the first three years. Fortunately, if you had a diversified portfolio with some bonds in there, you mitigated that a little bit.
But that’s horrific, truly horrific. It makes the financial crisis look mild by comparison. But the market really did go down about 85% from top to bottom from 1929 to 1932. Yet the 4% rule worked through that time period—the combination, the diversification, and keeping our spending modest, and frankly, the fact that the Great Depression had a lot of deflation which is really bad economically, but is technically good if you’re a retiree. It means, bad news, the market went down; the good news, you don’t need as much for your portfolio anyways because everything got cheaper (because that’s what happens with deflation, the stock gets cheaper).
And so, this 4% initial withdrawal rate worked.”

https://www.madfientist.com/michael-kitces-interview/

He goes on and has talked about this same thing on many other podcast with other people. I could listen to him talk about safe withdrawal rates for ever because I am that dorky. In any case he has looked into this deeply and I appreciate his optimism about the robustness of a withdrawal rate around 4%.
He notes that for a FIREee something more like 3.5% is appropriate for really long retirement periods.

I really enjoyed this. Thank you for posting it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on February 08, 2022, 04:16:31 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 08, 2022, 03:54:32 PM

Quote from: jeroly on February 08, 2022, 02:33:33 PM

I could see in a worst-case scenario wanting to take DaTrill's 1% WR approach, but only if I were a Trill with multiple life spans (DS9 reference).  Even if my life expectancy were 50 years (which it unfortunately isn't at this point), I could always just put everything into TIPS and pull out 2% each year.  Of course that depends on the US Gov't continuing to pay out its debt etc., but if you don't envision this happening, I'm not sure that 1% WR is going to work out any better than 2 or 3.5 or 4 or...

If that happens I'm going to convert my dollars to potatoes so at least we'll eat.

I prefer nuts and berries, and only partly because DH can't eat potatoes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 08, 2022, 04:54:46 PM

There were countries for which historically a 1% withdrawal rate would have been required. Michael kitces usually points out that losing a world war has been very bad for stock market returns. So if you are invested solely in one country and that country’s infrastructure and manufacturing base get wiped out then yeah, you are going to need a really low withdrawal rate. Then again you may well have more pressing concerns than your portfolio return.

Personally I’m about 40% ex-US so hopefully this won’t be an issue going forward.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on February 10, 2022, 01:49:14 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 06, 2022, 03:59:15 AM

@DaTrill , just curious whether you considered the tax implications before selling out 50%

I considered it in my case.

As I’m still working and get taxed in the top marginal tax rate of around 50%, and given most of my holdings are worth much more than I bought in at, if I sell I will trigger a massive capital gains tax liability (Australia).

I concluded that the certainty of tax was worse than the uncertainty that markets may tank and I’d get lucky with my market timing.

How much tax did you incur through your fire sale?

Most of the sales were in an oversized IRA balance that may result in HUGE RMDs in the distant future.  Paying 15% LTCG is a very low cost compared to what occurred in the past and gladly pay this every time to reduce portfolio risk.  Was hoping market continued ripping until 2023 where planning to RE and could get 0% LTCG, but market conditions didn't follow my schedule. 

Try to manage LTCG over time, non-scientific tax gain harvesting.  Market is roughly flat over the past 6 months and one could sell all holdings bought over this time period and might even have some losses.       

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on February 10, 2022, 01:51:20 PM

Quote from: arcturus on February 05, 2022, 07:05:05 PM

Well, on a topic other than @DaTrill 's views of the market and retirement rules, I took the step today of updating my spreadsheet with the losses from January --- there is something psychological about that that actually makes me feel better to see the updated numbers in spreadsheet and have the sense that its less money but its the new foundation to start building on again.  Weird how somehow seeing it in pixels on a screen helps in a weird way!

I do have the sense that we're in for kind of a sideways year in 2022 and I'm sure there will be some bumps in the road ahead.  But I am a subscriber to the old adage that "time in the market" is more reliable that "timing the market."

I just find it a strangely healthy exercise and wonder if anyone else has a similar view.  I think many of us agree that 2021 seemed to get a bit ahead of itself by mid-year.

Not trying to time the market, just made drastic change in risk profile.  Beta was probably 1.5 for the last two years, now probably around 0.5.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on February 10, 2022, 01:59:43 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 08, 2022, 03:55:31 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 07, 2022, 03:21:15 PM

I’m late to the @DaTrill race-to-the-bottom conversation but I can’t help but five in. Michael Kitces is a voice I respect a lot in the retirement analysis and advisor space for his nerdy and deep work. Here is an excerpt from an old podcast interview with the Mad Fientist.

“Michael Kitces: Yeah. You know, as bad as it can get when you get these bad sequences, what we still ultimately found is it still doesn’t seem to get any worse than about 4%.
Even when we look at horrible time periods like if you retired in 1929 on the eve of the Great Depression, the market went down about 85% in the first three years. Fortunately, if you had a diversified portfolio with some bonds in there, you mitigated that a little bit.
But that’s horrific, truly horrific. It makes the financial crisis look mild by comparison. But the market really did go down about 85% from top to bottom from 1929 to 1932. Yet the 4% rule worked through that time period—the combination, the diversification, and keeping our spending modest, and frankly, the fact that the Great Depression had a lot of deflation which is really bad economically, but is technically good if you’re a retiree. It means, bad news, the market went down; the good news, you don’t need as much for your portfolio anyways because everything got cheaper (because that’s what happens with deflation, the stock gets cheaper).
And so, this 4% initial withdrawal rate worked.”

https://www.madfientist.com/michael-kitces-interview/

He goes on and has talked about this same thing on many other podcast with other people. I could listen to him talk about safe withdrawal rates for ever because I am that dorky. In any case he has looked into this deeply and I appreciate his optimism about the robustness of a withdrawal rate around 4%.
He notes that for a FIREee something more like 3.5% is appropriate for really long retirement periods.

I really enjoyed this. Thank you for posting it.

Investigate Kitces background (more acting classes than Finance or stats classes).  Ask him what statistical assumptions underly the 4% rule.

Another estimate of 4% could be expressed as (10 yr yield/2) + (S&P 500 yield/2) = SWR.  For the sample period in the paper, this would roughly equal 4% where 10 yr yields were 7% and S&P 500 yields were 2.5%.  Today 10 yr is now around 2% (1%) and S&P 500 yield is around 1.5% (0.75%) for a 1.75% SWR. 

The simplest critique of the 4% rule is the current data falls outside the relevant range of the estimation data.  It doesn't mean the estimate won't hold but indicates that the past data does not support making these claims.     

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: scottish on February 10, 2022, 08:00:30 PM

Extrapolations are always like that, aren't they?

Another source of the 4% rule is the backtesting in McClung's "Living off your money".    I found the details of his back testing weren't presented very clearly.   Does his 4% rule mean you take 4% of the initial value of your portfolio the first year, then adjust the first year amount for inflation and take that amount for the second year?   Or does his 4% rule mean you take 4% of the portfolio every year?    This should be spelled out very clearly in the book, but I can't find it.   (If someone has found it, please let me know!)

Having said that, using data from the past is as good as it gets.   

How was your formula developed?   1/2 of the 10 year yield + 1/2 of the S&P 500 yield?    It sounds a bit like you're assuming no capital appreciation after inflation...   

I'm fortunate that I'll have a very conservative withdrawal rate, so I don't worry about all this too much.   I do like McClung's "prime harvesting" though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 10, 2022, 09:26:43 PM

Quote from: scottish on February 10, 2022, 08:00:30 PM

Extrapolations are always like that, aren't they?

Another source of the 4% rule is the backtesting in McClung's "Living off your money".    I found the details of his back testing weren't presented very clearly.   Does his 4% rule mean you take 4% of the initial value of your portfolio the first year, then adjust the first year amount for inflation and take that amount for the second year?   Or does his 4% rule mean you take 4% of the portfolio every year?    This should be spelled out very clearly in the book, but I can't find it.   (If someone has found it, please let me know!)

Having said that, using data from the past is as good as it gets.   

How was your formula developed?   1/2 of the 10 year yield + 1/2 of the S&P 500 yield?    It sounds a bit like you're assuming no capital appreciation after inflation...   

I'm fortunate that I'll have a very conservative withdrawal rate, so I don't worry about all this too much.   I do like McClung's "prime harvesting" though.

Everyone who researches and publishes on a safe withdrawal rate uses the same methodology: take a percentage of the initial portfolio (say, 4%) and then index that upwards for inflation each year. McClung presents some more complex methods based on a recent performance average that could give you more generous raises in good market times and also have you cutting back for safety in lean times. The original Trinity Study indexed for inflation and had no flexibility whatsoever in spending, which many argue goes contrary to our normal human nature.

If you only spent 4% of your portfolio balance at any given time you wouldn’t run out of money but then you might also not be spending very much right after a market drop, which is why almost everyone pegs nominal spending at a percentage of the initial portfolio value and not at the value at any given point in time.

Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on February 10, 2022, 09:29:08 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 10, 2022, 01:59:43 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 08, 2022, 03:55:31 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 07, 2022, 03:21:15 PM

I’m late to the @DaTrill race-to-the-bottom conversation but I can’t help but five in. Michael Kitces is a voice I respect a lot in the retirement analysis and advisor space for his nerdy and deep work. Here is an excerpt from an old podcast interview with the Mad Fientist.

“Michael Kitces: Yeah. You know, as bad as it can get when you get these bad sequences, what we still ultimately found is it still doesn’t seem to get any worse than about 4%.
Even when we look at horrible time periods like if you retired in 1929 on the eve of the Great Depression, the market went down about 85% in the first three years. Fortunately, if you had a diversified portfolio with some bonds in there, you mitigated that a little bit.
But that’s horrific, truly horrific. It makes the financial crisis look mild by comparison. But the market really did go down about 85% from top to bottom from 1929 to 1932. Yet the 4% rule worked through that time period—the combination, the diversification, and keeping our spending modest, and frankly, the fact that the Great Depression had a lot of deflation which is really bad economically, but is technically good if you’re a retiree. It means, bad news, the market went down; the good news, you don’t need as much for your portfolio anyways because everything got cheaper (because that’s what happens with deflation, the stock gets cheaper).
And so, this 4% initial withdrawal rate worked.”

https://www.madfientist.com/michael-kitces-interview/

He goes on and has talked about this same thing on many other podcast with other people. I could listen to him talk about safe withdrawal rates for ever because I am that dorky. In any case he has looked into this deeply and I appreciate his optimism about the robustness of a withdrawal rate around 4%.
He notes that for a FIREee something more like 3.5% is appropriate for really long retirement periods.

I really enjoyed this. Thank you for posting it.

Investigate Kitces background (more acting classes than Finance or stats classes).  Ask him what statistical assumptions underly the 4% rule.

Another estimate of 4% could be expressed as (10 yr yield/2) + (S&P 500 yield/2) = SWR.  For the sample period in the paper, this would roughly equal 4% where 10 yr yields were 7% and S&P 500 yields were 2.5%.  Today 10 yr is now around 2% (1%) and S&P 500 yield is around 1.5% (0.75%) for a 1.75% SWR. 

The simplest critique of the 4% rule is the current data falls outside the relevant range of the estimation data.  It doesn't mean the estimate won't hold but indicates that the past data does not support making these claims.   

You didn’t read up on him very much then. He holds just about every financial advisor designation out there. From Wikipedia:

“ He earned a Bachelor's in Psychology from Bates College in Maine[5] with a minor in theater,[6] and subsequently earned a Master's in Financial Planning from The American College (Pennsylvania) and a Master's in Taxation from the University of Tulsa.[7][failed verification] He also holds the CFP, CLU, ChFC, RHU, REBC, and CASL designations.”

I’m not going to try to summarize Kitces’ work on safe withdrawal rates. He has written dozens of articles and you can listen to him talk for hours on the subject on various podcasts. Here is an article with him interviewing Bengen, the godfather of the 4% rule on the details of you care to read. https://www.kitces.com/blog/bill-bengen-4-percent-rule-safe-withdrawal-rates-historical-returns-research-book/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 11, 2022, 07:36:44 AM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 10, 2022, 01:59:43 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 08, 2022, 03:55:31 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 07, 2022, 03:21:15 PM

I’m late to the @DaTrill race-to-the-bottom conversation but I can’t help but five in. Michael Kitces is a voice I respect a lot in the retirement analysis and advisor space for his nerdy and deep work. Here is an excerpt from an old podcast interview with the Mad Fientist.

“Michael Kitces: Yeah. You know, as bad as it can get when you get these bad sequences, what we still ultimately found is it still doesn’t seem to get any worse than about 4%.
Even when we look at horrible time periods like if you retired in 1929 on the eve of the Great Depression, the market went down about 85% in the first three years. Fortunately, if you had a diversified portfolio with some bonds in there, you mitigated that a little bit.
But that’s horrific, truly horrific. It makes the financial crisis look mild by comparison. But the market really did go down about 85% from top to bottom from 1929 to 1932. Yet the 4% rule worked through that time period—the combination, the diversification, and keeping our spending modest, and frankly, the fact that the Great Depression had a lot of deflation which is really bad economically, but is technically good if you’re a retiree. It means, bad news, the market went down; the good news, you don’t need as much for your portfolio anyways because everything got cheaper (because that’s what happens with deflation, the stock gets cheaper).
And so, this 4% initial withdrawal rate worked.”

https://www.madfientist.com/michael-kitces-interview/

He goes on and has talked about this same thing on many other podcast with other people. I could listen to him talk about safe withdrawal rates for ever because I am that dorky. In any case he has looked into this deeply and I appreciate his optimism about the robustness of a withdrawal rate around 4%.
He notes that for a FIREee something more like 3.5% is appropriate for really long retirement periods.

I really enjoyed this. Thank you for posting it.

Investigate Kitces background (more acting classes than Finance or stats classes).  Ask him what statistical assumptions underly the 4% rule.

Another estimate of 4% could be expressed as (10 yr yield/2) + (S&P 500 yield/2) = SWR.  For the sample period in the paper, this would roughly equal 4% where 10 yr yields were 7% and S&P 500 yields were 2.5%.  Today 10 yr is now around 2% (1%) and S&P 500 yield is around 1.5% (0.75%) for a 1.75% SWR. 

The simplest critique of the 4% rule is the current data falls outside the relevant range of the estimation data.  It doesn't mean the estimate won't hold but indicates that the past data does not support making these claims.   

Both of those are specific points in time and ignore variability over a 30 year period be it for inflation, capital appreciation, hanging rates, economic growth and so on so it's fairly useless. 

Also, you would use the the SP500 earnings yield and not the dividend yield as that is ultimately what drives income and value.   

Not to mention by just using dividend yield you are ignoring stock buybacks that have been significant bc it is more tax favorable than dividends (and helps management comp)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 11, 2022, 07:53:46 AM

Much of this has been discussed under;

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stop-worrying-about-the-4-rule/

Things that work stay around.  Things that don't work disappear.  I've seen a lot of evidence for that in all the various diets that have been developed.  I was listening to an explanation regarding the English aristocracy a few years back.  It was stated that for these English lords to live on their estates that the value of their estates had to be 25X what they spent to live on each year.  That's four percent.  Was it just coincidence or how things work?

This guy still seems right:

https://jlcollinsnh.com/2012/12/07/stocks-part-xiii-withdrawal-rates-how-much-can-i-spend-anyway/ (https://jlcollinsnh.com/2012/12/07/stocks-part-xiii-withdrawal-rates-how-much-can-i-spend-anyway/)

I'm glad it does. Unlike a lot of you,......money stuff is quite boring.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 11, 2022, 08:14:35 AM

Quote from: pecunia on February 11, 2022, 07:53:46 AM

Much of this has been discussed under;

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stop-worrying-about-the-4-rule/

Things that work stay around.  Things that don't work disappear.  I've seen a lot of evidence for that in all the various diets that have been developed.  I was listening to an explanation regarding the English aristocracy a few years back.  It was stated that for these English lords to live on their estates that the value of their estates had to be 25X what they spent to live on each year.  That's four percent.  Was it just coincidence or how things work?

This guy still seems right:

https://jlcollinsnh.com/2012/12/07/stocks-part-xiii-withdrawal-rates-how-much-can-i-spend-anyway/ (https://jlcollinsnh.com/2012/12/07/stocks-part-xiii-withdrawal-rates-how-much-can-i-spend-anyway/)

I'm glad it does. Unlike a lot of you,......money stuff is quite boring.

Haha.  When you're doing it right, it's boring.

I always remember the Fidelity 401k study.  They analyzed the behavior and account performance of their 401k owners.  The absolute highest performers, by far were people who had one easy to see characteristic.  They were dead.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 11, 2022, 08:51:27 AM

Normally I love this thread, but this 4% bickering is boring. Any mustachian who is legitimately in this club is never going to run out of money. Can't we talk about something more interesting?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on February 11, 2022, 10:33:45 AM

Quote from: Dicey on February 11, 2022, 08:51:27 AM

Normally I love this thread, but this 4% bickering is boring. Any mustachian who is legitimately in this club is never going to run out of money. Can't we talk about something more interesting?

Between this and countertops over on the family thread, maybe we all just need to go outside and find something new to talk about?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 11, 2022, 10:35:39 AM

Yeah, I always thought the conclusion to the Bengen article was as boring as it gets.  The conclusion of his paper states someone 60-65 could do inflation adjusted withdraws of about 4 percent and never run out of money.  As someone who knows no one in my family that has ever lived to over 85, this was telling me that I could safely spend 1/25th of my money for 25 years.  Well no shit.  So basically if I invest my money I can count on it to grow at the rate of inflation and no more.   Biggest letdown ever.  I guess I should just put it all in TIPs or something so I didnt have to experince the volatility of the markets and couldn't spend any more than that anyway.

Now the math behind what he used to get to that conclusion...and all the later studies and tables with many more variables that started showing perpetual rates and stuff then made it interesting and I saw the point to investing in the market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 11, 2022, 12:18:56 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 11, 2022, 08:51:27 AM

Normally I love this thread, but this 4% bickering is boring. Any mustachian who is legitimately in this club is never going to run out of money. Can't we talk about something more interesting?

I apologize....a week ago I said not to engage with DaTroll and here I am today having engaged to another stupid comment.. my bad.

Anyway, I was just having a convo with a friend that is in the
market for a new car in the $60k'ish range.  On one hand I thought that is a lotnfor a frigging car but on the other hand I thought it was crazy that being in this threads club that it really isn't that much (even at the low end $2mil). Not that I would or at $2mil you even could do it every year but it really wouldn't hurt that much to spend that much on a car or anything for that matter. (It would pain me dearly psychologically)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on February 11, 2022, 12:44:46 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 11, 2022, 12:18:56 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 11, 2022, 08:51:27 AM

Normally I love this thread, but this 4% bickering is boring. Any mustachian who is legitimately in this club is never going to run out of money. Can't we talk about something more interesting?

I apologize....a week ago I said not to engage with DaTroll and here I am today having engaged to another stupid comment.. my bad.

Anyway, I was just having a convo with a friend that is in the
market for a new car in the $60k'ish range.  On one hand I thought that is a lotnfor a frigging car but on the other hand I thought it was crazy that being in this threads club that it really isn't that much (even at the low end $2mil). Not that I would or at $2mil you even could do it every year but it really wouldn't hurt that much to spend that much on a car or anything for that matter. (It would pain me dearly psychologically)

We have a lot of "Hey, we could afford...!" moments, but it often comes back to, yeah, but is that really how we want to spend our money? Don't worry about us, we aren't misers, we just don't necessarily need a second car that is parked 9 months out of the year just to smooth things over a bit when we visit family.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on February 11, 2022, 02:56:17 PM

Quote from: ixtap on February 11, 2022, 12:44:46 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 11, 2022, 12:18:56 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 11, 2022, 08:51:27 AM

Normally I love this thread, but this 4% bickering is boring. Any mustachian who is legitimately in this club is never going to run out of money. Can't we talk about something more interesting?

I apologize....a week ago I said not to engage with DaTroll and here I am today having engaged to another stupid comment.. my bad.

Anyway, I was just having a convo with a friend that is in the
market for a new car in the $60k'ish range.  On one hand I thought that is a lotnfor a frigging car but on the other hand I thought it was crazy that being in this threads club that it really isn't that much (even at the low end $2mil). Not that I would or at $2mil you even could do it every year but it really wouldn't hurt that much to spend that much on a car or anything for that matter. (It would pain me dearly psychologically)

We have a lot of "Hey, we could afford...!" moments, but it often comes back to, yeah, but is that really how we want to spend our money? Don't worry about us, we aren't misers, we just don't necessarily need a second car that is parked 9 months out of the year just to smooth things over a bit when we visit family.

Yep, every once in awhile I realize I could go and buy a reasonably priced house for cash if I wanted.  It’s a very weird feeling.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 11, 2022, 03:02:55 PM

Quote from: G-dog on February 11, 2022, 02:56:17 PM

Quote from: ixtap on February 11, 2022, 12:44:46 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 11, 2022, 12:18:56 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 11, 2022, 08:51:27 AM

Normally I love this thread, but this 4% bickering is boring. Any mustachian who is legitimately in this club is never going to run out of money. Can't we talk about something more interesting?

I apologize....a week ago I said not to engage with DaTroll and here I am today having engaged to another stupid comment.. my bad.

Anyway, I was just having a convo with a friend that is in the
market for a new car in the $60k'ish range.  On one hand I thought that is a lotnfor a frigging car but on the other hand I thought it was crazy that being in this threads club that it really isn't that much (even at the low end $2mil). Not that I would or at $2mil you even could do it every year but it really wouldn't hurt that much to spend that much on a car or anything for that matter. (It would pain me dearly psychologically)

We have a lot of "Hey, we could afford...!" moments, but it often comes back to, yeah, but is that really how we want to spend our money? Don't worry about us, we aren't misers, we just don't necessarily need a second car that is parked 9 months out of the year just to smooth things over a bit when we visit family.

Yep, every once in awhile I realize I could go and buy a reasonably priced house for cash if I wanted.  It’s a very weird feeling.

Hahahaha ha. No such thing in the Bay Area.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: G-dog on February 11, 2022, 03:13:51 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 11, 2022, 03:02:55 PM

Quote from: G-dog on February 11, 2022, 02:56:17 PM

Quote from: ixtap on February 11, 2022, 12:44:46 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 11, 2022, 12:18:56 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 11, 2022, 08:51:27 AM

Normally I love this thread, but this 4% bickering is boring. Any mustachian who is legitimately in this club is never going to run out of money. Can't we talk about something more interesting?

I apologize....a week ago I said not to engage with DaTroll and here I am today having engaged to another stupid comment.. my bad.

Anyway, I was just having a convo with a friend that is in the
market for a new car in the $60k'ish range.  On one hand I thought that is a lotnfor a frigging car but on the other hand I thought it was crazy that being in this threads club that it really isn't that much (even at the low end $2mil). Not that I would or at $2mil you even could do it every year but it really wouldn't hurt that much to spend that much on a car or anything for that matter. (It would pain me dearly psychologically)

We have a lot of "Hey, we could afford...!" moments, but it often comes back to, yeah, but is that really how we want to spend our money? Don't worry about us, we aren't misers, we just don't necessarily need a second car that is parked 9 months out of the year just to smooth things over a bit when we visit family.

Yep, every once in awhile I realize I could go and buy a reasonably priced house for cash if I wanted.  It’s a very weird feeling.

Hahahaha ha. No such thing in the Bay Area.

I know!  But even though this is just theoretical, fortunately that isn’t the case everywhere (yet).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 11, 2022, 08:41:17 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 11, 2022, 08:51:27 AM

Normally I love this thread, but this 4% bickering is boring. Any mustachian who is legitimately in this club is never going to run out of money. Can't we talk about something more interesting?

Kind of boring but I just played some more rich people games.  With likely raising interest rates, I’m tax loss harvesting between the CA muni fund and the total bond market. 

ETA:  I’m very casually looking at houses here, but there aren’t a lot that are in my price range where I’d want to live.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 11, 2022, 09:11:26 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on February 11, 2022, 08:41:17 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 11, 2022, 08:51:27 AM

Normally I love this thread, but this 4% bickering is boring. Any mustachian who is legitimately in this club is never going to run out of money. Can't we talk about something more interesting?

Kind of boring but I just played some more rich people games.  With likely raising interest rates, I’m tax loss harvesting between the CA muni fund and the total bond market. 

ETA:  I’m very casually looking at houses here, but there aren’t a lot that are in my price range where I’d want to live.

Ooh, I should look at that.   I have always focused on equities harvesting but have kind of overlooked opportunities to do it with bond allocation except for normal rebalancing

Thanks

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on February 17, 2022, 02:46:13 PM

Quote from: scottish on February 10, 2022, 08:00:30 PM

Extrapolations are always like that, aren't they?

Another source of the 4% rule is the backtesting in McClung's "Living off your money".    I found the details of his back testing weren't presented very clearly.   Does his 4% rule mean you take 4% of the initial value of your portfolio the first year, then adjust the first year amount for inflation and take that amount for the second year?   Or does his 4% rule mean you take 4% of the portfolio every year?    This should be spelled out very clearly in the book, but I can't find it.   (If someone has found it, please let me know!)

Having said that, using data from the past is as good as it gets.   

How was your formula developed?   1/2 of the 10 year yield + 1/2 of the S&P 500 yield?    It sounds a bit like you're assuming no capital appreciation after inflation...   

I'm fortunate that I'll have a very conservative withdrawal rate, so I don't worry about all this too much.   I do like McClung's "prime harvesting" though.

Just back of the envelope but framing the information differently.  Within this forum, I'd be curious how many are in the 3's and feel more confident that will see 4 before 2?  Or if anyone preciously in the 2's is now in the 1's.     

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on February 17, 2022, 02:49:19 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 10, 2022, 09:29:08 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 10, 2022, 01:59:43 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 08, 2022, 03:55:31 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 07, 2022, 03:21:15 PM

I’m late to the @DaTrill race-to-the-bottom conversation but I can’t help but five in. Michael Kitces is a voice I respect a lot in the retirement analysis and advisor space for his nerdy and deep work. Here is an excerpt from an old podcast interview with the Mad Fientist.

“Michael Kitces: Yeah. You know, as bad as it can get when you get these bad sequences, what we still ultimately found is it still doesn’t seem to get any worse than about 4%.
Even when we look at horrible time periods like if you retired in 1929 on the eve of the Great Depression, the market went down about 85% in the first three years. Fortunately, if you had a diversified portfolio with some bonds in there, you mitigated that a little bit.
But that’s horrific, truly horrific. It makes the financial crisis look mild by comparison. But the market really did go down about 85% from top to bottom from 1929 to 1932. Yet the 4% rule worked through that time period—the combination, the diversification, and keeping our spending modest, and frankly, the fact that the Great Depression had a lot of deflation which is really bad economically, but is technically good if you’re a retiree. It means, bad news, the market went down; the good news, you don’t need as much for your portfolio anyways because everything got cheaper (because that’s what happens with deflation, the stock gets cheaper).
And so, this 4% initial withdrawal rate worked.”

https://www.madfientist.com/michael-kitces-interview/

He goes on and has talked about this same thing on many other podcast with other people. I could listen to him talk about safe withdrawal rates for ever because I am that dorky. In any case he has looked into this deeply and I appreciate his optimism about the robustness of a withdrawal rate around 4%.
He notes that for a FIREee something more like 3.5% is appropriate for really long retirement periods.

I really enjoyed this. Thank you for posting it.

Investigate Kitces background (more acting classes than Finance or stats classes).  Ask him what statistical assumptions underly the 4% rule.

Another estimate of 4% could be expressed as (10 yr yield/2) + (S&P 500 yield/2) = SWR.  For the sample period in the paper, this would roughly equal 4% where 10 yr yields were 7% and S&P 500 yields were 2.5%.  Today 10 yr is now around 2% (1%) and S&P 500 yield is around 1.5% (0.75%) for a 1.75% SWR. 

The simplest critique of the 4% rule is the current data falls outside the relevant range of the estimation data.  It doesn't mean the estimate won't hold but indicates that the past data does not support making these claims.   

You didn’t read up on him very much then. He holds just about every financial advisor designation out there. From Wikipedia:

“ He earned a Bachelor's in Psychology from Bates College in Maine[5] with a minor in theater,[6] and subsequently earned a Master's in Financial Planning from The American College (Pennsylvania) and a Master's in Taxation from the University of Tulsa.[7][failed verification] He also holds the CFP, CLU, ChFC, RHU, REBC, and CASL designations.”

I’m not going to try to summarize Kitces’ work on safe withdrawal rates. He has written dozens of articles and you can listen to him talk for hours on the subject on various podcasts. Here is an article with him interviewing Bengen, the godfather of the 4% rule on the details of you care to read. https://www.kitces.com/blog/bill-bengen-4-percent-rule-safe-withdrawal-rates-historical-returns-research-book/

He's an actor memorizing and reading lines.  Would you want a young Neil Patrick Harris to perform your surgery?   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 17, 2022, 02:57:48 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 17, 2022, 02:49:19 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 10, 2022, 09:29:08 PM

Quote from: DaTrill on February 10, 2022, 01:59:43 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 08, 2022, 03:55:31 PM

Quote from: ysette9 on February 07, 2022, 03:21:15 PM

I’m late to the @DaTrill race-to-the-bottom conversation but I can’t help but five in. Michael Kitces is a voice I respect a lot in the retirement analysis and advisor space for his nerdy and deep work. Here is an excerpt from an old podcast interview with the Mad Fientist.

“Michael Kitces: Yeah. You know, as bad as it can get when you get these bad sequences, what we still ultimately found is it still doesn’t seem to get any worse than about 4%.
Even when we look at horrible time periods like if you retired in 1929 on the eve of the Great Depression, the market went down about 85% in the first three years. Fortunately, if you had a diversified portfolio with some bonds in there, you mitigated that a little bit.
But that’s horrific, truly horrific. It makes the financial crisis look mild by comparison. But the market really did go down about 85% from top to bottom from 1929 to 1932. Yet the 4% rule worked through that time period—the combination, the diversification, and keeping our spending modest, and frankly, the fact that the Great Depression had a lot of deflation which is really bad economically, but is technically good if you’re a retiree. It means, bad news, the market went down; the good news, you don’t need as much for your portfolio anyways because everything got cheaper (because that’s what happens with deflation, the stock gets cheaper).
And so, this 4% initial withdrawal rate worked.”

https://www.madfientist.com/michael-kitces-interview/

He goes on and has talked about this same thing on many other podcast with other people. I could listen to him talk about safe withdrawal rates for ever because I am that dorky. In any case he has looked into this deeply and I appreciate his optimism about the robustness of a withdrawal rate around 4%.
He notes that for a FIREee something more like 3.5% is appropriate for really long retirement periods.

I really enjoyed this. Thank you for posting it.

Investigate Kitces background (more acting classes than Finance or stats classes).  Ask him what statistical assumptions underly the 4% rule.

Another estimate of 4% could be expressed as (10 yr yield/2) + (S&P 500 yield/2) = SWR.  For the sample period in the paper, this would roughly equal 4% where 10 yr yields were 7% and S&P 500 yields were 2.5%.  Today 10 yr is now around 2% (1%) and S&P 500 yield is around 1.5% (0.75%) for a 1.75% SWR. 

The simplest critique of the 4% rule is the current data falls outside the relevant range of the estimation data.  It doesn't mean the estimate won't hold but indicates that the past data does not support making these claims.   

You didn’t read up on him very much then. He holds just about every financial advisor designation out there. From Wikipedia:

“ He earned a Bachelor's in Psychology from Bates College in Maine[5] with a minor in theater,[6] and subsequently earned a Master's in Financial Planning from The American College (Pennsylvania) and a Master's in Taxation from the University of Tulsa.[7][failed verification] He also holds the CFP, CLU, ChFC, RHU, REBC, and CASL designations.”

I’m not going to try to summarize Kitces’ work on safe withdrawal rates. He has written dozens of articles and you can listen to him talk for hours on the subject on various podcasts. Here is an article with him interviewing Bengen, the godfather of the 4% rule on the details of you care to read. https://www.kitces.com/blog/bill-bengen-4-percent-rule-safe-withdrawal-rates-historical-returns-research-book/

He's an actor memorizing and reading lines.  Would you want a young Neil Patrick Harris to perform your surgery?   

I would if he had gone and gotten a medical degree that included a surgery track and was properly licensed, which by analogy is what Kitces has done, given the education and certification listed for him.

That comment of yours has to be one of the worst arguments I've seen outside of politics for some time.   Seriously, your point is so flawed that judges in a formal debate and the audience would cringe in embarrassment for you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 17, 2022, 03:21:43 PM

This used to be my favorite thread on the forum…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: scottish on February 17, 2022, 03:29:37 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 17, 2022, 03:21:43 PM

This used to be my favorite thread on the forum…

My bad, I didn't mean to extend the dialog in question.   Drawdown is on my mind a bit.   Sorry about that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 17, 2022, 09:08:41 PM

Stock Market tumbles.  They always have to have someone to blame.  They always give a single reason for it although there are millions and millions of investors with different lives and different goals.  There are also thousands of different situations affecting the companies.  This time they blame Putin.  I guess that's OK.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 18, 2022, 07:43:01 AM

I'm not as concerned about the market gyrations (oh noes, ridiculously affluent people are losing money and might have to wait a bit longer to be richer).  I am worried about prolonged high inflation.  Torches and pitchforks are already coming out and we've only just begun to feel the affects of an inflationary trend that the Fed currently is doing very little to combat.  As the economy really starts to open up, people are going to use the Fed's generous borrowing terms to really set fire to inflationary trends.

Fingers are being pointed everywhere - politicians (but Trump will save us, LOL!), greedy CEOs (they could cut prices if they wanted, right?), crypto / NFTs / meme stonks (I don't get it, but I'm sure it has something to do with all the world's problems), and the wealthy / hedge funds / investors (they buy up all the homes and rent / AirBnB them!)...

The longer inflation goes on, the louder the displeasure of the masses will get. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 18, 2022, 08:07:25 AM

"The longer inflation goes on, the louder the displeasure of the masses will get. "

You gotta wonder what happens after that?  Things could go South like Argentina.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 18, 2022, 11:07:08 AM

Quote from: pecunia on February 18, 2022, 08:07:25 AM

"The longer inflation goes on, the louder the displeasure of the masses will get. "

You gotta wonder what happens after that?  Things could go South like Argentina.

Not saying it absolutely can't happen here but it is highly unlikely to happen as we have a real currency and economy. Not to mention FED will at some point get on it.

Besides this has been the way of Argentina for the last century......much like a person with a shopping addiction that only lives on social security and refuses to get a job.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 18, 2022, 12:26:39 PM

I have no idea how bad inflation could get or how Americans will ultimately react to it - current earners are the generations (X, Y, Z) that have never experienced high inflation...  So far, people are just grumpily spending more, which leads me to believe no one is taking this very seriously, other than the main stream media which we are all desensitized to at this point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on February 18, 2022, 01:53:17 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 18, 2022, 12:26:39 PM

I have no idea how bad inflation could get or how Americans will ultimately react to it - current earners are the generations (X, Y, Z) that have never experienced high inflation...  So far, people are just grumpily spending more, which leads me to believe no one is taking this very seriously, other than the main stream media which we are all desensitized to at this point.

I'm not.  I'm grumpily not spending on stuff I otherwise would because I think the price being asked is "too much".  I can afford it, but I don't want to.  So my consumption is down, especially on the more discretionary items.

I'm not the only one either.  I know others who are holding off on purchases of various kinds.

Yes, if one "has to" have something, then one must "give in" and buy it at some point.  So some consumption may be delayed rather than disappearing.

However, I also think that there is an effect where if someone doesn't buy something - particularly a discretionary item - then they may realize or decide that they can and would prefer to do without it permanently.  And some time sensitive items are never "caught up" - I did not take my usual week vacation to sunnier climate this past winter, and while I'll probably go somewhere this winter, that Christmas 2020 trip will forever go untaken.

It does probably matter if one is still earning an income or not.  My son is a young worker, and his compensation has outpaced inflation so far.  I'm FIREd, and while my WR% is low enough, the presence of a big fat zero on line 1 of my Form 1040 does impact the way I see things.

I've no idea how it will all shake out over time.  I just wanted to point out that some people are already cutting back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 18, 2022, 06:33:45 PM

Ahh yes, this forum should be renamed "The big fat zero on Line 1"...:)

Except I went back to work so line 1 might not actually be wide enough next tax season...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on February 18, 2022, 06:53:26 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 18, 2022, 06:33:45 PM

Ahh yes, this forum should be renamed "The big fat zero on Line 1"...:)

Except I went back to work so line 1 might not actually be wide enough next tax season...

Just use a smaller font. ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on February 18, 2022, 07:40:22 PM

May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$
November 2021 - 2.89m$
December 2021 - 2.80m$
January 2022 - 2.76m$

so that was bad month with -40k$ due to everything going down, gold, stocks and cryptos... also first month after RE so no more salary income.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 18, 2022, 08:56:34 PM

Quote from: Finntastic on February 18, 2022, 07:40:22 PM

May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$
November 2021 - 2.89m$
December 2021 - 2.80m$
January 2022 - 2.76m$

so that was bad month with -40k$ due to everything going down, gold, stocks and cryptos... also first month after RE so no more salary income.

Time to put on some Dire Straits - Money for Nothin' and when Mark is singing about Boy George ..... he's a millionaire, just sing with him "I'm a millionaire".

Not bad.  Lost a little over the last few months?  Ah..no biggy.  Still got enough to be a millionaire.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 18, 2022, 10:00:26 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 18, 2022, 08:56:34 PM

... Lost a little over the last few months?  Ah..no biggy.  Still got enough to be a millionaire.

That's such a soothing thought, isn't it?!

Our stocks are down about $60k since the year started.   Meh.   It's just normal market behavior.   

On the plus side:

• rents are going up
• rental property values are up
• farm yields are up
• we upped our shares on $199k of the Vanguard S&P 500 fund by 10% (sheer dumb luck)
• we upped our shares on $96k of the Vanguard S&P 500 fund by 0.75% (mostly dumb luck)
• a mortgage note we hold has payments starting to come due
• our trucking company startup survived its first year and turned a profit
• learning about NUA will save me a bunch of taxes in the future.

I'm in the process of closing out the slew of old 401Ks into 2 IRAs and a brokerage account.  So sometimes the positions in the 401K have to be liquidated and repurchased in the new IRA.  That's how I ended up with those extra S&P 500 shares.   So when prices go up again, we'll be even better off.

Company stock will be pulled out into the brokerage acct to take advantage of the NUA provision.   I'll take a small hit up front to pay a lower tax rate on a lot larger balance.

We have no debt.   Passive income is up.   We have lots of different income streams, many of which are uncorrelated with others.

Life is good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 19, 2022, 06:51:39 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 18, 2022, 10:00:26 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 18, 2022, 08:56:34 PM

... Lost a little over the last few months?  Ah..no biggy.  Still got enough to be a millionaire.

That's such a soothing thought, isn't it?!

Our stocks are down about $60k since the year started.   Meh.   It's just normal market behavior.   

On the plus side:

• rents are going up
• rental property values are up
• farm yields are up
• we upped our shares on $199k of the Vanguard S&P 500 fund by 10% (sheer dumb luck)
• we upped our shares on $96k of the Vanguard S&P 500 fund by 0.75% (mostly dumb luck)
• a mortgage note we hold has payments starting to come due
• our trucking company startup survived its first year and turned a profit
• learning about NUA will save me a bunch of taxes in the future.

I'm in the process of closing out the slew of old 401Ks into 2 IRAs and a brokerage account.  So sometimes the positions in the 401K have to be liquidated and repurchased in the new IRA.  That's how I ended up with those extra S&P 500 shares.   So when prices go up again, we'll be even better off.

Company stock will be pulled out into the brokerage acct to take advantage of the NUA provision.   I'll take a small hit up front to pay a lower tax rate on a lot larger balance.

We have no debt.   Passive income is up.   We have lots of different income streams, many of which are uncorrelated with others.

Life is good.

A smart person once told me that if you have your health, that this is probably the greatest riches you can have.  All else will pale to insignificance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 19, 2022, 01:22:13 PM

I had to check Mint.  I didn't want to, but I just did.  Still a 3 and a bunch of zeros.  Not by much, but still there.   Should be an interesting week to come with old Putin rattling sabers.  He backs down, the market will rally and temporarily forget about the Fed and inflation. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 21, 2022, 04:34:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2022, 01:22:13 PM

I had to check Mint.  I didn't want to, but I just did.  Still a 3 and a bunch of zeros.  Not by much, but still there.   Should be an interesting week to come with old Putin rattling sabers.  He backs down, the market will rally and temporarily forget about the Fed and inflation.

Braver man than me.. I darn't look...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on February 21, 2022, 06:43:47 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 21, 2022, 04:34:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2022, 01:22:13 PM

I had to check Mint.  I didn't want to, but I just did.  Still a 3 and a bunch of zeros.  Not by much, but still there.   Should be an interesting week to come with old Putin rattling sabers.  He backs down, the market will rally and temporarily forget about the Fed and inflation.

Braver man than me.. I darn't look...:)

For me, I think I've resigned myself to 2022 being a year of just keeping the nose to the grindstone and contributing what I can to the stache, hoping that I'm buying in at attractive long-term valuations during the course of the year.  In terms of damage, I will admit that I did take a sneak peek and figure it would still require another 8-10% drop in the market to cause me to need to turn in my membership card to this thread :-). 

Meantime, in planning for a summer vacation -- I can feel the inflation impact for sure....surprised at the estimated price tag.  Biggest contributor -- airfare and rental car.  Its a struggle to find a rental car for a week for anything significantly less than $1,000.  I think I did a bit better than that, but still.....its a far cry from the bygone era of $40-50 per day for a nice car/suv!  Anyone else experiencing sticker shock with vacation planning?   Maybe I just chose the unlucky location....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 21, 2022, 08:45:21 PM

Quote from: arcturus on February 21, 2022, 06:43:47 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 21, 2022, 04:34:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2022, 01:22:13 PM

I had to check Mint.  I didn't want to, but I just did.  Still a 3 and a bunch of zeros.  Not by much, but still there.   Should be an interesting week to come with old Putin rattling sabers.  He backs down, the market will rally and temporarily forget about the Fed and inflation.

Braver man than me.. I darn't look...:)

For me, I think I've resigned myself to 2022 being a year of just keeping the nose to the grindstone and contributing what I can to the stache, hoping that I'm buying in at attractive long-term valuations during the course of the year.  In terms of damage, I will admit that I did take a sneak peek and figure it would still require another 8-10% drop in the market to cause me to need to turn in my membership card to this thread :-). 

Meantime, in planning for a summer vacation -- I can feel the inflation impact for sure....surprised at the estimated price tag.  Biggest contributor -- airfare and rental car.  Its a struggle to find a rental car for a week for anything significantly less than $1,000.  I think I did a bit better than that, but still.....its a far cry from the bygone era of $40-50 per day for a nice car/suv!  Anyone else experiencing sticker shock with vacation planning?   Maybe I just chose the unlucky location....

We're making plans for 2022 vacations.   March were headed to Chicago for a few days.  Flights weren't too bad, plan to drive some of the trips.  April will be a Florida house trip, hopefully some fun outdoor stuff, shouldn't be expensive.   June will be a Fort Lauderdale, Florida beach trip for a week.  Already booked the condo.  After that, drive to the west coast of Florida for a few days at the house.  September we've booked a condo just outside Rocky Mountain NP.  Maybe some hiking and Jeeping.  Looking to book a cruise in the Fall.  Sticker shock on the 14 day New York to New Orleans cruise.  Hits many Caribbean islands in between.  New Orleans is our home port, so only flight from New Orleans to New York needed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 21, 2022, 10:19:17 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 21, 2022, 04:34:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2022, 01:22:13 PM

I had to check Mint.  I didn't want to, but I just did.  Still a 3 and a bunch of zeros.  Not by much, but still there.   Should be an interesting week to come with old Putin rattling sabers.  He backs down, the market will rally and temporarily forget about the Fed and inflation.

Braver man than me.. I darn't look...:)

Lol, on a hike today, DH mentioned that he had looked at our primary investment account balances. OTOH, I ran the numbers on our real estate yesterday. $2.7M in equity. WTF? One hand giveth, the other taketh away. Meh.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on February 22, 2022, 06:12:32 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 21, 2022, 08:45:21 PM

Quote from: arcturus on February 21, 2022, 06:43:47 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 21, 2022, 04:34:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2022, 01:22:13 PM

I had to check Mint.  I didn't want to, but I just did.  Still a 3 and a bunch of zeros.  Not by much, but still there.   Should be an interesting week to come with old Putin rattling sabers.  He backs down, the market will rally and temporarily forget about the Fed and inflation.

Braver man than me.. I darn't look...:)

For me, I think I've resigned myself to 2022 being a year of just keeping the nose to the grindstone and contributing what I can to the stache, hoping that I'm buying in at attractive long-term valuations during the course of the year.  In terms of damage, I will admit that I did take a sneak peek and figure it would still require another 8-10% drop in the market to cause me to need to turn in my membership card to this thread :-). 

Meantime, in planning for a summer vacation -- I can feel the inflation impact for sure....surprised at the estimated price tag.  Biggest contributor -- airfare and rental car.  Its a struggle to find a rental car for a week for anything significantly less than $1,000.  I think I did a bit better than that, but still.....its a far cry from the bygone era of $40-50 per day for a nice car/suv!  Anyone else experiencing sticker shock with vacation planning?   Maybe I just chose the unlucky location....

We're making plans for 2022 vacations.   March were headed to Chicago for a few days.  Flights weren't too bad, plan to drive some of the trips.  April will be a Florida house trip, hopefully some fun outdoor stuff, shouldn't be expensive.   June will be a Fort Lauderdale, Florida beach trip for a week.  Already booked the condo.  After that, drive to the west coast of Florida for a few days at the house.  September we've booked a condo just outside Rocky Mountain NP.  Maybe some hiking and Jeeping.  Looking to book a cruise in the Fall.  Sticker shock on the 14 day New York to New Orleans cruise.  Hits many Caribbean islands in between.  New Orleans is our home port, so only flight from New Orleans to New York needed.

Hello @Bateaux - wow busy summer, good for you!  Rocky Mountain NP is incredible, but (as you probably know) to do have to reserve your date and time just to get into the park.  Just wanted to make sure you knew that so you could do it before you get there and find its all booked up.   There are some sites where I think you can buy park passes second hand from people who have changed plans, etc., so if they are sold out you could look into that as an option.   Hope you enjoy those trips!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on February 22, 2022, 08:47:31 AM

Our tickets for this year have seemed very reasonable so far, and the trips we have yet to book will each use a companion pass, so expensive trips just make the annual fees more worthwhile? Probably helps that one of the trips we have booked is for India in the fall. Fingers crossed world events cooperate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 22, 2022, 09:00:38 AM

Quote from: arcturus on February 22, 2022, 06:12:32 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 21, 2022, 08:45:21 PM

Quote from: arcturus on February 21, 2022, 06:43:47 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 21, 2022, 04:34:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2022, 01:22:13 PM

I had to check Mint.  I didn't want to, but I just did.  Still a 3 and a bunch of zeros.  Not by much, but still there.   Should be an interesting week to come with old Putin rattling sabers.  He backs down, the market will rally and temporarily forget about the Fed and inflation.

Braver man than me.. I darn't look...:)

For me, I think I've resigned myself to 2022 being a year of just keeping the nose to the grindstone and contributing what I can to the stache, hoping that I'm buying in at attractive long-term valuations during the course of the year.  In terms of damage, I will admit that I did take a sneak peek and figure it would still require another 8-10% drop in the market to cause me to need to turn in my membership card to this thread :-). 

Meantime, in planning for a summer vacation -- I can feel the inflation impact for sure....surprised at the estimated price tag.  Biggest contributor -- airfare and rental car.  Its a struggle to find a rental car for a week for anything significantly less than $1,000.  I think I did a bit better than that, but still.....its a far cry from the bygone era of $40-50 per day for a nice car/suv!  Anyone else experiencing sticker shock with vacation planning?   Maybe I just chose the unlucky location....

We're making plans for 2022 vacations.   March were headed to Chicago for a few days.  Flights weren't too bad, plan to drive some of the trips.  April will be a Florida house trip, hopefully some fun outdoor stuff, shouldn't be expensive.   June will be a Fort Lauderdale, Florida beach trip for a week.  Already booked the condo.  After that, drive to the west coast of Florida for a few days at the house.  September we've booked a condo just outside Rocky Mountain NP.  Maybe some hiking and Jeeping.  Looking to book a cruise in the Fall.  Sticker shock on the 14 day New York to New Orleans cruise.  Hits many Caribbean islands in between.  New Orleans is our home port, so only flight from New Orleans to New York needed.

Hello @Bateaux - wow busy summer, good for you!  Rocky Mountain NP is incredible, but (as you probably know) to do have to reserve your date and time just to get into the park.  Just wanted to make sure you knew that so you could do it before you get there and find its all booked up.   There are some sites where I think you can buy park passes second hand from people who have changed plans, etc., so if they are sold out you could look into that as an option.   Hope you enjoy those trips!

Most likely won't go into RMNP itself if crowded.  May drive up Mount Evans if the road is still open.  The property at Granby has many mountain bike trails on sight.  I also may hike a bit of the CDT south of the park.  Maybe an overnight if my wife would drop me and pick me up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: swaneesr on February 22, 2022, 04:54:48 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 22, 2022, 09:00:38 AM

Quote from: arcturus on February 22, 2022, 06:12:32 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 21, 2022, 08:45:21 PM

Quote from: arcturus on February 21, 2022, 06:43:47 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 21, 2022, 04:34:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2022, 01:22:13 PM

I had to check Mint.  I didn't want to, but I just did.  Still a 3 and a bunch of zeros.  Not by much, but still there.   Should be an interesting week to come with old Putin rattling sabers.  He backs down, the market will rally and temporarily forget about the Fed and inflation.

Braver man than me.. I darn't look...:)

For me, I think I've resigned myself to 2022 being a year of just keeping the nose to the grindstone and contributing what I can to the stache, hoping that I'm buying in at attractive long-term valuations during the course of the year.  In terms of damage, I will admit that I did take a sneak peek and figure it would still require another 8-10% drop in the market to cause me to need to turn in my membership card to this thread :-). 

Meantime, in planning for a summer vacation -- I can feel the inflation impact for sure....surprised at the estimated price tag.  Biggest contributor -- airfare and rental car.  Its a struggle to find a rental car for a week for anything significantly less than $1,000.  I think I did a bit better than that, but still.....its a far cry from the bygone era of $40-50 per day for a nice car/suv!  Anyone else experiencing sticker shock with vacation planning?   Maybe I just chose the unlucky location....

We're making plans for 2022 vacations.   March were headed to Chicago for a few days.  Flights weren't too bad, plan to drive some of the trips.  April will be a Florida house trip, hopefully some fun outdoor stuff, shouldn't be expensive.   June will be a Fort Lauderdale, Florida beach trip for a week.  Already booked the condo.  After that, drive to the west coast of Florida for a few days at the house.  September we've booked a condo just outside Rocky Mountain NP.  Maybe some hiking and Jeeping.  Looking to book a cruise in the Fall.  Sticker shock on the 14 day New York to New Orleans cruise.  Hits many Caribbean islands in between.  New Orleans is our home port, so only flight from New Orleans to New York needed.

Hello @Bateaux - wow busy summer, good for you!  Rocky Mountain NP is incredible, but (as you probably know) to do have to reserve your date and time just to get into the park.  Just wanted to make sure you knew that so you could do it before you get there and find its all booked up.   There are some sites where I think you can buy park passes second hand from people who have changed plans, etc., so if they are sold out you could look into that as an option.   Hope you enjoy those trips!

Most likely won't go into RMNP itself if crowded.  May drive up Mount Evans if the road is still open.  The property at Granby has many mountain bike trails on sight.  I also may hike a bit of the CDT south of the park.  Maybe an overnight if my wife would drop me and pick me up.

Wow that is a busy vacation schedule Bateaux. Good for you!


We visited Rocky Mountain National a park last year. No problem getting access to park if you get there earlier in the morning (before 9am). Met a mother moose and her son on a hike and lots of other wild life.

Mint totals are bad bad bad……. hope to retire 7/1. Oh the drama.

Swanee


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on February 23, 2022, 01:50:58 AM

Since Omicron kicked into hyperdrive in December, I have been semi-quarantining; no restaurant dining (either outdoors or in), no meeting with friends, mostly ordering groceries from Instacart/Amazon Fresh (or popping into the supermarket at 6AM when nobody's there), wearing a KN95 mask whenver leaving the house and maintaining social distance.

I'm triple vaccinated (Pfizer x3), so y'all might ask, why take so many precautions?

- I'm older and with a condition (atrial fibrilation) that puts me at additional risk
- We really don't know the long-term risks with Omicron vs other variants even if short term symptoms are milder in general
- Paxlovid, the new Pfizer antiviral treatment, is seeing its production ramped up and will likely get to a point in the next couple of months whereby I have a (possibly slightly optimistic) expectation that I will be able to acquire a treatment course of Paxlovid to carry around with me in case I get Covid whilst traveling

My original plan was to continue to shelter in place until March 1st, but I at first pushed it back by two weeks and then pushed it forward by a week so that I can travel with my daughter in her week between jobs.

Despite the slow start to the year I think I'll be doing a good deal of travel in the coming months...

Already planned: beach holiday in March, hiking holiday in Grand Tetons NP in August
In planning stages:

Chile in April (probably about ten days in and around the Atacama Desert)
Either: Indonesia in June (two weeks in Sumatra and Sulawesi - not just for the coffee, lol, but because those are the most interesting-to-me parts of Indonesia I haven't checked out yet in my previous five trips) - OR - England in July (depending on if I'm going alone [ID] or with my GF [GB])   
Australia in October (three weeks to watch T20 Cricket World Cup matches and to visit the half of Australia I missed when I spent three weeks there in 2019, i.e. Queensland, Sydney, Canberra, Brisbane, Darwin, northwest Western Australia)
Somewhere warm and fun with GF in December (suggestions welcome!)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 23, 2022, 02:20:21 AM

Quote from: jeroly on February 23, 2022, 01:50:58 AM

Since Omicron kicked into hyperdrive in December, I have been semi-quarantining; no restaurant dining (either outdoors or in), no meeting with friends, mostly ordering groceries from Instacart/Amazon Fresh (or popping into the supermarket at 6AM when nobody's there), wearing a KN95 mask whenver leaving the house and maintaining social distance.

I'm triple vaccinated (Pfizer x3), so y'all might ask, why take so many precautions?

- I'm older and with a condition (atrial fibrilation) that puts me at additional risk
- We really don't know the long-term risks with Omicron vs other variants even if short term symptoms are milder in general
- Paxlovid, the new Pfizer antiviral treatment, is seeing its production ramped up and will likely get to a point in the next couple of months whereby I have a (possibly slightly optimistic) expectation that I will be able to acquire a treatment course of Paxlovid to carry around with me in case I get Covid whilst traveling

My original plan was to continue to shelter in place until March 1st, but I at first pushed it back by two weeks and then pushed it forward by a week so that I can travel with my daughter in her week between jobs.

Despite the slow start to the year I think I'll be doing a good deal of travel in the coming months...

Already planned: beach holiday in March, hiking holiday in Grand Tetons NP in August
In planning stages:

Chile in April (probably about ten days in and around the Atacama Desert)
Either: Indonesia in June (two weeks in Sumatra and Sulawesi - not just for the coffee, lol, but because those are the most interesting-to-me parts of Indonesia I haven't checked out yet in my previous five trips) - OR - England in July (depending on if I'm going alone [ID] or with my GF [GB])   
Australia in October (three weeks to watch T20 Cricket World Cup matches and to visit the half of Australia I missed when I spent three weeks there in 2019, i.e. Queensland, Sydney, Canberra, Brisbane, Darwin, northwest Western Australia)
Somewhere warm and fun with GF in December (suggestions welcome!)

Good luck with your health and fun with the travel.  It is scary as we age and lose our youthful immune systems.  But, we only have so much time to get out and actually live.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 23, 2022, 02:23:07 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 21, 2022, 04:34:37 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 19, 2022, 01:22:13 PM

I had to check Mint.  I didn't want to, but I just did.  Still a 3 and a bunch of zeros.  Not by much, but still there.   Should be an interesting week to come with old Putin rattling sabers.  He backs down, the market will rally and temporarily forget about the Fed and inflation.

Braver man than me.. I darn't look...:)

I just looked again, it's probably not as as bad as you thought.  We're down less than 10 percent from the tippy top high point.  Yes it's slightly below 3M liquid now, but that's still a lot of digits.
Oh and I'm still going to work today.  DCA.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on February 23, 2022, 03:05:44 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 23, 2022, 02:20:21 AM

Quote from: jeroly on February 23, 2022, 01:50:58 AM

Since Omicron kicked into hyperdrive in December, I have been semi-quarantining; no restaurant dining (either outdoors or in), no meeting with friends, mostly ordering groceries from Instacart/Amazon Fresh (or popping into the supermarket at 6AM when nobody's there), wearing a KN95 mask whenver leaving the house and maintaining social distance.

I'm triple vaccinated (Pfizer x3), so y'all might ask, why take so many precautions?

- I'm older and with a condition (atrial fibrilation) that puts me at additional risk
- We really don't know the long-term risks with Omicron vs other variants even if short term symptoms are milder in general
- Paxlovid, the new Pfizer antiviral treatment, is seeing its production ramped up and will likely get to a point in the next couple of months whereby I have a (possibly slightly optimistic) expectation that I will be able to acquire a treatment course of Paxlovid to carry around with me in case I get Covid whilst traveling

My original plan was to continue to shelter in place until March 1st, but I at first pushed it back by two weeks and then pushed it forward by a week so that I can travel with my daughter in her week between jobs.

Despite the slow start to the year I think I'll be doing a good deal of travel in the coming months...

Already planned: beach holiday in March, hiking holiday in Grand Tetons NP in August
In planning stages:

Chile in April (probably about ten days in and around the Atacama Desert)
Either: Indonesia in June (two weeks in Sumatra and Sulawesi - not just for the coffee, lol, but because those are the most interesting-to-me parts of Indonesia I haven't checked out yet in my previous five trips) - OR - England in July (depending on if I'm going alone [ID] or with my GF [GB])   
Australia in October (three weeks to watch T20 Cricket World Cup matches and to visit the half of Australia I missed when I spent three weeks there in 2019, i.e. Queensland, Sydney, Canberra, Brisbane, Darwin, northwest Western Australia)
Somewhere warm and fun with GF in December (suggestions welcome!)

Good luck with your health and fun with the travel.  It is scary as we age and lose our youthful immune systems.  But, we only have so much time to get out and actually live.

Thanks, Bateaux!  It's challenging to strike the right risk/reward balance as the equation keeps changing with new variants, treatments, and  levels of prevalence. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on February 23, 2022, 10:13:11 AM

Quote from: jeroly on February 23, 2022, 01:50:58 AM

Since Omicron kicked into hyperdrive in December, I have been semi-quarantining; no restaurant dining (either outdoors or in), no meeting with friends, mostly ordering groceries from Instacart/Amazon Fresh (or popping into the supermarket at 6AM when nobody's there), wearing a KN95 mask whenver leaving the house and maintaining social distance.

I'm triple vaccinated (Pfizer x3), so y'all might ask, why take so many precautions?

- I'm older and with a condition (atrial fibrilation) that puts me at additional risk
- We really don't know the long-term risks with Omicron vs other variants even if short term symptoms are milder in general
- Paxlovid, the new Pfizer antiviral treatment, is seeing its production ramped up and will likely get to a point in the next couple of months whereby I have a (possibly slightly optimistic) expectation that I will be able to acquire a treatment course of Paxlovid to carry around with me in case I get Covid whilst traveling

My original plan was to continue to shelter in place until March 1st, but I at first pushed it back by two weeks and then pushed it forward by a week so that I can travel with my daughter in her week between jobs.

Despite the slow start to the year I think I'll be doing a good deal of travel in the coming months...

Already planned: beach holiday in March, hiking holiday in Grand Tetons NP in August
In planning stages:

Chile in April (probably about ten days in and around the Atacama Desert)
Either: Indonesia in June (two weeks in Sumatra and Sulawesi - not just for the coffee, lol, but because those are the most interesting-to-me parts of Indonesia I haven't checked out yet in my previous five trips) - OR - England in July (depending on if I'm going alone [ID] or with my GF [GB])   
Australia in October (three weeks to watch T20 Cricket World Cup matches and to visit the half of Australia I missed when I spent three weeks there in 2019, i.e. Queensland, Sydney, Canberra, Brisbane, Darwin, northwest Western Australia)
Somewhere warm and fun with GF in December (suggestions welcome!)

I have booked and cancelled trips to central America several times this month, but finally booked tickets to Europe (Croatia and around) at the end of April. I care less about the virus, but more about the logistics of getting tested when flying back to the U.S. Once the U.S. removes the testing requirements, I am flying around the world.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on February 23, 2022, 10:25:18 AM

Quote from: arcturus on February 22, 2022, 06:12:32 AM

Hello @Bateaux - wow busy summer, good for you!  Rocky Mountain NP is incredible, but (as you probably know) to do have to reserve your date and time just to get into the park.  Just wanted to make sure you knew that so you could do it before you get there and find its all booked up.   There are some sites where I think you can buy park passes second hand from people who have changed plans, etc., so if they are sold out you could look into that as an option.   Hope you enjoy those trips!

Sometimes they do check IDs at the park entrances.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 23, 2022, 12:57:12 PM

As I move inextricably closer to my self promised FIRE date I can’t help but update my spreadsheet almost daily. It is not in anyway helpful to any decision making, just a bad habit like drinking too much coffee.

The relatively small market slump OTOH has been a good reminder to me to reassess my asset mix and I have taken heed and started accumulating some cash, starting with my 2021 bonus which historically would immediately been tipped onto the pile in the market. I have never held cash previously, just invested everything in shares and property.

When I stop work Later this year I just want a couple of years of cash at my disposal so that I can just not look at the stock market at all for the first year post FIRE. Ignorance will be bliss. So I will leave my current invested stash to ride the waves of market sentiment and I will build up a little side stash of fun money for the first year or 2 post FIRE.

So, the FIRE planning….

Late last year I bought a 4x4 and I have enrolled myself in an off road driving course in April. One of the things I am looking forward to post FIRE is having the time to roam the national parks and outback of my home country, Australia. I have also have a camper trailer on order, which is being built down in Melbourne with delivery expected in June. Covid is causing some delay in parts delivery coming from China, so it could be July or August before I get my mobile 2nd home.

In January DW and I will head off on a 9 month trip around the central and western part of Australia. Most of it will not need any pre-booking but there will be a need to book a couple of things I have planned, and also some popular camp sites in school holiday periods. Now that the big 1st trip is less than 12 months away the booking window is now opening up and we need to start thinking about really committing to the plan. The first booking I will need to make is at Easter where I want to get in super early to secure a space in a very popular national park campsite for Easter next year,.

So now we are making real progress towards FIRE. It is no longer a theoretical concept based off spreadsheets and calculators, but something we are actively making commitments to.

Deep breaths…..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: scottish on February 23, 2022, 03:03:55 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 23, 2022, 12:57:12 PM

As I move inextricably closer to my self promised FIRE date I can’t help but update my spreadsheet almost daily. It is not in anyway helpful to any decision making, just a bad habit like drinking too much coffee.

The relatively small market slump OTOH has been a good reminder to me to reassess my asset mix and I have taken heed and started accumulating some cash, starting with my 2021 bonus which historically would immediately been tipped onto the pile in the market. I have never held cash previously, just invested everything in shares and property.

When I stop work Later this year I just want a couple of years of cash at my disposal so that I can just not look at the stock market at all for the first year post FIRE. Ignorance will be bliss. So I will leave my current invested stash to ride the waves of market sentiment and I will build up a little side stash of fun money for the first year or 2 post FIRE.

This is really germane to my situation.    I've figured out the mechanics, but I seem to have a bit of a mental block about switching from accumulation to withdrawal.

What are you planning to do with distributions?    Our investments accounts generate a substantial fraction of our annual expenses so I've been thinking to live off of those (along with a bunch of cash) until we get used to the idea of drawing on (i.e. selling) investments directly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on February 24, 2022, 04:39:40 AM

Yep, pretty much the same

We will get some rent, some dividends, and spend some cash and just let the stock market do it’s thing for a year or 3. Everything in our superannuation (retirememt account) will be reinvested by the fund till I’m 60.

I say i won’t watch the market but that won’t be true. I’d be lying to myself.

The plan is…

If the stock market continues to hold up ok we will draw down to top up the cash stash once a quarter. If stocks drop by more than 25% from the last quarter (or cumulatively over the past few draw downs) we will stop the top up until stocks are back to 90% of the highest index point draw down (VAS), or until our cash runs dry.

We also have a large % of our budget being discretionary (>50% for travel, entertainment, home renovations/ upgrades, car replacement etc) so I expect the cash will last longer than I think as I won’t be able to resist battening down the hatches if I suffered 25% of my stash disappearing and not bouncing back in a couple of years. I am sure we could go 4 or 5 years without being forced to sell any stocks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 24, 2022, 05:25:02 AM

Quote from: scottish on February 23, 2022, 03:03:55 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on February 23, 2022, 12:57:12 PM

As I move inextricably closer to my self promised FIRE date I can’t help but update my spreadsheet almost daily. It is not in anyway helpful to any decision making, just a bad habit like drinking too much coffee.

The relatively small market slump OTOH has been a good reminder to me to reassess my asset mix and I have taken heed and started accumulating some cash, starting with my 2021 bonus which historically would immediately been tipped onto the pile in the market. I have never held cash previously, just invested everything in shares and property.

When I stop work Later this year I just want a couple of years of cash at my disposal so that I can just not look at the stock market at all for the first year post FIRE. Ignorance will be bliss. So I will leave my current invested stash to ride the waves of market sentiment and I will build up a little side stash of fun money for the first year or 2 post FIRE.

This is really germane to my situation.    I've figured out the mechanics, but I seem to have a bit of a mental block about switching from accumulation to withdrawal.

What are you planning to do with distributions?    Our investments accounts generate a substantial fraction of our annual expenses so I've been thinking to live off of those (along with a bunch of cash) until we get used to the idea of drawing on (i.e. selling) investments directly.

I'm pulling the trigger this year.  I get around a third of what we spend in dividends/distributions from our taxable account. And I have about 6 years of spending (needed after the dividends) in cash.  My current LNW allocation is about 70/15/15 (stocks bonds cash) but my intention is to spend down at least half of that cash, maybe more (not re-balance back to it) at the start of FIRE to get me more to a 80/15/5.  I know if I was selling investments during the few years for my spending I'd just be watching the market too closely (and caring about it too much), so this plan allows me to stick my head in the sand for those first few years, which I think is best for me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 24, 2022, 05:52:19 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on February 24, 2022, 05:25:02 AM

- SNIP -

I'm pulling the trigger this year.  I get around a third of what we spend in dividends/distributions from our taxable account. And I have about 6 years of spending (needed after the dividends) in cash.  My current LNW allocation is about 70/15/15 (stocks bonds cash) but my intention is to spend down at least half of that cash, maybe more (not re-balance back to it) at the start of FIRE to get me more to a 80/15/5.  I know if I was selling investments during the few years for my spending I'd just be watching the market too closely (and caring about it too much), so this plan allows me to stick my head in the sand for those first few years, which I think is best for me.

With the way the stock market has been plummeting at what seems like 9.8 meters per second per second, cash seems like a smart idea.  There may be the inflation hit, but I'll bet you've figured a way around that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 24, 2022, 06:48:31 AM

Quote from: pecunia on February 24, 2022, 05:52:19 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on February 24, 2022, 05:25:02 AM

- SNIP -

I'm pulling the trigger this year.  I get around a third of what we spend in dividends/distributions from our taxable account. And I have about 6 years of spending (needed after the dividends) in cash.  My current LNW allocation is about 70/15/15 (stocks bonds cash) but my intention is to spend down at least half of that cash, maybe more (not re-balance back to it) at the start of FIRE to get me more to a 80/15/5.  I know if I was selling investments during the few years for my spending I'd just be watching the market too closely (and caring about it too much), so this plan allows me to stick my head in the sand for those first few years, which I think is best for me.

With the way the stock market has been plummeting at what seems like 9.8 meters per second per second, cash seems like a smart idea.  There may be the inflation hit, but I'll bet you've figured a way around that.

Well, if I stayed 70/15/15 the cash would likely be quite the drag due to opportunity costs and inflation, but again I'm gonna spend that portion down so in the end not a huge cost for helping me ease into RE which I think is gonna be a shock to my system....In 23 years of saving and investing I've never had my NW drop in a year due to some coincidences and the market obviously surging since that number got large....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 24, 2022, 10:59:50 AM

Since I haven't mentioned it here, DH is finally pulling the trigger. He's scheduled for foot surgery in late March. He will then have about an 8-10 week recovery period, during which he will burn up his remaining vacation time. His official end date is scheduled for June 1, 2022. We had originally planned for him to move the unused vacation into his 401k, but we really don't need the money, so he's going to do it this way instead.

The RV (E RIG B) is all spruced up and ready to go. Now if only he can finish the backyard hardscaping before his surgery...

I posted somewhere previously about the differences in valuations between Redfin and Zillow. They vary wildly between Northern CA (1) and Southern CA (3), but the total is always close. On four properties, currently valued at about $3.4M, the difference this time was only $2,820. Crazy. <--- I realize that's a little confusing, Z thinks our primary is worth $100k more then R does and R thinks our three rentals combined are worth $100k more than Z does. in the end the difference is <$3k.

Interestingly, there's a piece of shit flip around the corner from our primary that just went on the market for more than Z or R think our house is worth. It went pending in six days. It'll be interesting to see what it sells for. FWIW, it's 600sf smaller and on a very busy street. The job the guy did is so bad it's well, it's just bad.

Of course, Putin could blow us all off the map and none of this blather would matter.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on February 25, 2022, 04:05:33 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 24, 2022, 10:59:50 AM

Since I haven't mentioned it here, DH is finally pulling the trigger. He's scheduled for foot surgery in late March. He will then have about an 8-10 week recovery period, during which he will burn up his remaining vacation time. His official end date is scheduled for June 1, 2022. We had originally planned for him to move the unused vacation into his 401k, but we really don't need the money, so he's going to do it this way instead.

The RV (E RIG B) is all spruced up and ready to go. Now if only he can finish the backyard hardscaping before his surgery...

I posted somewhere previously about the differences in valuations between Redfin and Zillow. They vary wildly between Northern CA (1) and Southern CA (3), but the total is always close. On four properties, currently valued at about $3.4M, the difference this time was only $2,820. Crazy. <--- I realize that's a little confusing, Z thinks our primary is worth $100k more then R does and R thinks our three rentals combined are worth $100k more than Z does. in the end the difference is <$3k.

Interestingly, there's a piece of shit flip around the corner from our primary that just went on the market for more than Z or R think our house is worth. It went pending in six days. It'll be interesting to see what it sells for. FWIW, it's 600sf smaller and on a very busy street. The job the guy did is so bad it's well, it's just bad.

Of course, Putin could blow us all off the map and none of this blather would matter.

I have a somewhat similar situation where I look at the Z values of other homes in my area, and I'm shocked by the price while I look at the estimated Z value for my home it doesn't seem to have kept up with the level of inflation happening right around me.  It makes me start to feel like I need to rethink my plans to downsize and save money as part of my RE strategy.  I *kinda* believe that my Z estimate could be as much as 10-15% low, yet with the Z value being what it is, it does make me nervous about just assuming its wrong for my home.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 25, 2022, 04:15:17 PM

You really have to look at when houses in the area sold, what they sold for, the condition they were in when they sold, and who they sold to (i.e., sold to a family member for a discount), are they fashionably updated, etc.    If a distressed house was recently purchased for a very low price and then renovated, Zillow will be weighting the recent purchase price fairly heavily.   It has no way of knowing the house is now worth more unless someone offers it for sale at a higher price, and even then it won't really know until it sells.

In a neighborhood where you know what's what on the inside condition of most of the homes around you, then you can make much better estimates. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on February 25, 2022, 04:19:00 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 25, 2022, 04:15:17 PM

You really have to look at when houses in the area sold, what they sold for, the condition they were in when they sold, and who they sold to (i.e., sold to a family member for a discount), are they fashionably updated, etc.    If a distressed house was recently purchased for a very low price and then renovated, Zillow will be weighting the recent purchase price fairly heavily.   It has no way of knowing the house is now worth more unless someone offers it for sale at a higher price, and even then it won't really know until it sells.

In a neighborhood where you know what's what on the inside condition of most of the homes around you, then you can make much better estimates.

Yep, I think that's part of my problem -- as I live in an area with 70-80 year old homes, some of which have been completely renovated and others that haven't been touched in 30-35 years on the inside.  So I feel like pricing in my particular neighborhood is perhaps more art than science in this regard, because the houses are like a box of chocolates....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 25, 2022, 04:49:05 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 24, 2022, 10:59:50 AM

Of course, Putin could blow us all off the map and none of this blather would matter.

Ugh, my heart breaks for the people in Ukraine right now. I spent a wonderful 10 days in Kiev in 2016 and the people are quite lovely. Thinking of those folks being subject to the abuses of Russian troops literally makes me feel sick, assuming of course they havent gotten any better than when they occupied East Germany.

Sitting in a coffee shop in Kiev a bit like being in Paris, quite cosmopolitan.

My friends bought their house on the outskirts of Kiev.. thankfully they got out and are now in Florida. They don't know if it will be worth anything (or if they will even own it) once on the East side of a new Iron Curtain..:(

Just bloody awful.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on February 25, 2022, 05:18:17 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 25, 2022, 04:49:05 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 24, 2022, 10:59:50 AM

Of course, Putin could blow us all off the map and none of this blather would matter.

Ugh, my heart breaks for the people in Ukraine right now. I spent a wonderful 10 days in Kiev in 2016 and the people are quite lovely. Thinking of those folks being subject to the abuses of Russian troops literally makes me feel sick, assuming of course they havent gotten any better than when they occupied East Germany.

Sitting in a coffee shop in Kiev a bit like being in Paris, quite cosmopolitan.

My friends bought their house on the outskirts of Kiev.. thankfully they got out and are now in Florida. They don't know if it will be worth anything (or if they will even own it) once on the East side of a new Iron Curtain..:(

Just bloody awful.

Well said @Exflyboy - it feels like we've been teleported to the 1930/40s....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 27, 2022, 08:25:57 AM

Quote from: arcturus on February 25, 2022, 04:05:33 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 24, 2022, 10:59:50 AM

Since I haven't mentioned it here, DH is finally pulling the trigger. He's scheduled for foot surgery in late March. He will then have about an 8-10 week recovery period, during which he will burn up his remaining vacation time. His official end date is scheduled for June 1, 2022. We had originally planned for him to move the unused vacation into his 401k, but we really don't need the money, so he's going to do it this way instead.

The RV (E RIG B) is all spruced up and ready to go. Now if only he can finish the backyard hardscaping before his surgery...

I posted somewhere previously about the differences in valuations between Redfin and Zillow. They vary wildly between Northern CA (1) and Southern CA (3), but the total is always close. On four properties, currently valued at about $3.4M, the difference this time was only $2,820. Crazy. <--- I realize that's a little confusing, Z thinks our primary is worth $100k more then R does and R thinks our three rentals combined are worth $100k more than Z does. in the end the difference is <$3k.

Interestingly, there's a piece of shit flip around the corner from our primary that just went on the market for more than Z or R think our house is worth. It went pending in six days. It'll be interesting to see what it sells for. FWIW, it's 600sf smaller and on a very busy street. The job the guy did is so bad it's well, it's just bad.

Of course, Putin could blow us all off the map and none of this blather would matter.

I have a somewhat similar situation where I look at the Z values of other homes in my area, and I'm shocked by the price while I look at the estimated Z value for my home it doesn't seem to have kept up with the level of inflation happening right around me.  It makes me start to feel like I need to rethink my plans to downsize and save money as part of my RE strategy.  I *kinda* believe that my Z estimate could be as much as 10-15% low, yet with the Z value being what it is, it does make me nervous about just assuming its wrong for my home.

Here's the other post I referred to:

Quote from: Dicey on February 17, 2022, 08:53:12 AM

...Another frugal real estate weirdo way to have fun is to use either site to do a search. Set up parameters that match your home for lot size, square footage,  bed/bath count, etc. Choose "Recent Sales" and see what comes up. Average those, adjust for different amenities and you've got a decent idea of current market value.

Recently, we did this with our primary. We have a huge, 3-car, 1050 sf garage.  They're not all that common in our area, so I only got 6 matches, and the prices weren't great. I repeated the search, without the 3-car garage, and got 21 hits and much higher values. Are houses with smaller garages worth more? No. It's just that all the houses with three car garages that have sold recently were older/smaller/whatever. That's how these estimates can get so wonky.

Hope it's helpful.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on February 27, 2022, 05:40:41 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 27, 2022, 08:25:57 AM

Quote from: arcturus on February 25, 2022, 04:05:33 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 24, 2022, 10:59:50 AM

Since I haven't mentioned it here, DH is finally pulling the trigger. He's scheduled for foot surgery in late March. He will then have about an 8-10 week recovery period, during which he will burn up his remaining vacation time. His official end date is scheduled for June 1, 2022. We had originally planned for him to move the unused vacation into his 401k, but we really don't need the money, so he's going to do it this way instead.

The RV (E RIG B) is all spruced up and ready to go. Now if only he can finish the backyard hardscaping before his surgery...

I posted somewhere previously about the differences in valuations between Redfin and Zillow. They vary wildly between Northern CA (1) and Southern CA (3), but the total is always close. On four properties, currently valued at about $3.4M, the difference this time was only $2,820. Crazy. <--- I realize that's a little confusing, Z thinks our primary is worth $100k more then R does and R thinks our three rentals combined are worth $100k more than Z does. in the end the difference is <$3k.

Interestingly, there's a piece of shit flip around the corner from our primary that just went on the market for more than Z or R think our house is worth. It went pending in six days. It'll be interesting to see what it sells for. FWIW, it's 600sf smaller and on a very busy street. The job the guy did is so bad it's well, it's just bad.

Of course, Putin could blow us all off the map and none of this blather would matter.

I have a somewhat similar situation where I look at the Z values of other homes in my area, and I'm shocked by the price while I look at the estimated Z value for my home it doesn't seem to have kept up with the level of inflation happening right around me.  It makes me start to feel like I need to rethink my plans to downsize and save money as part of my RE strategy.  I *kinda* believe that my Z estimate could be as much as 10-15% low, yet with the Z value being what it is, it does make me nervous about just assuming its wrong for my home.

Here's the other post I referred to:

Quote from: Dicey on February 17, 2022, 08:53:12 AM

...Another frugal real estate weirdo way to have fun is to use either site to do a search. Set up parameters that match your home for lot size, square footage,  bed/bath count, etc. Choose "Recent Sales" and see what comes up. Average those, adjust for different amenities and you've got a decent idea of current market value.

Recently, we did this with our primary. We have a huge, 3-car, 1050 sf garage.  They're not all that common in our area, so I only got 6 matches, and the prices weren't great. I repeated the search, without the 3-car garage, and got 21 hits and much higher values. Are houses with smaller garages worth more? No. It's just that all the houses with three car garages that have sold recently were older/smaller/whatever. That's how these estimates can get so wonky.

Hope it's helpful.

Thank you @Dicey that is helpful.  I'll have to spend more time on it, but when I did that I found it interesting that a "roughly comparable" house in my zip code sold about 9 months at a price that is about 10% above the current Zestimate for the house, which I assume lends some support to the notion that there are some recent sales of houses which may be dragging these Zestimates down.  Thanks for sharing....gives me a new way to track this.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on March 01, 2022, 06:06:11 AM

I looked at end of Feb numbers. We're down 7%. Disappointing, but at the same time it doesn't really matter.

I've found I check less and care less about money since RE. Seems counterintuitive but it's true. Prior to RE I was really concerned with the number and the safety of the number, and would it work out, and should I really quit. Now I'm just like, "meh, we'll worry about it when there is a problem and it looks like we're running out".

(full disclosure- not 100% RE-DH is still working and I'm doing some (very par time) contract work. But on the other hand we have two kids at home that keep needing things, and eating, and growing, and needing more things, and we like to travel with them while we have the chance.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 01, 2022, 05:21:08 PM

Checked from 12/31/21 to 2/28/22, and we are down, drumroll...$50K.  I assumed it would be more.  I also check less frequently than I used to because in retirement, there's not much I can do other than reduce spending. This was the 2 in college year with OOS tuition for both.  The "final" payment for the oldest has been made, so now it's just rent ($4K more for him, and $4,500 for the middle son) for the remainder of this school year.  Severance payments to DH end this March.  Boo on the loss of that firehose of cash.  It's been a blessing this past year given everything else that's been going on.  So, we are still sitting at $2.7 million. I'm good with that. I'm pretty sure we're going to go down over the next couple years versus up, but I'm also "mostly" good with that.  My IBL isn't screaming at me every day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 01, 2022, 06:48:18 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on March 01, 2022, 06:06:11 AM

I've found I check less and care less about money since RE. Seems counterintuitive but it's true.

Makes total sense to me.  Before you RE you are deciding whether to RE or not based off the numbers.  There's a big difference in one's daily life between being RE versus not.

After RE what difference is there really?  So this month my WR is at a 4.3% annual pace versus 4%?  So what, it'll be 20 years (if I'm even around then) before I know if that even matters at all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 01, 2022, 10:10:17 PM

So I have a showing on a house tomorrow.  It’s above my price range but my price range is conservative.  Im willing to consider but not go much above asking.  I’ve been told we aren’t as over asking crazy as the rest of the Bay Area.  It would be less than half the house for close to double the price of my last one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 02, 2022, 12:49:29 PM

Ugg, attending my work sponsored 4 day virtual retirement seminar.  Okay is the “Financial planner” day.  I’m not impressed.  Of course he’s made several internet retirement police cracks about the FIRE movement, note there are many people attending who have the opportunity to retire significantly earlier than 65 due to be public safety.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Finntastic on March 02, 2022, 10:22:21 PM

May 2021 - 2.65m$
June 2021 - 2.61m$
July 2021 - 2.62m$
August 2021 - 2.82m$
September 2021 - 2.79m$
October 2021 - 2.87m$
November 2021 - 2.89m$
December 2021 - 2.80m$
January 2022 - 2.76m$
February 2022 - 3.01m$

yes got over that 3m mark!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on March 05, 2022, 06:04:47 AM

@Finntastic , your February performance has to be in the top 5% - well done - and I guess that's a testament to your low allocation to stocks.  And the heavy real-estate position seems to have been wise as well (?).   I'm getting beaten up pretty thoroughly with about 75% equities.  My only real estate is my primary home, which I don't include in my portfolio, so I'm a big zero there.

The S&P500 closed again below its 255-day moving average.  With the evolving situation in Ukraine, its difficult to draw any comparisons to the past, but the optimist in me would say that the past 5 times this has happened (March 2020, October 2018, January 2016, August 2015, August 2011), the market has recovered swiftly -- in most cases within 3-4 months.  But now we all seem to be impacted by an unhinged man 5,000 miles away.  Incredible.   And of course, for the poor folks in Ukraine, I cannot even imagine....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 05, 2022, 10:57:05 AM

I'm surprised the S&P is not down further..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on March 05, 2022, 05:21:11 PM

So today, I went to check out a new car.  My son and I drove down to the dealership and I did the typical hand over of my license for them to copy.  Name, tel number, email as usual.  While he was getting the car, a Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing, we looked at one in the showroom.  We found some fun things about the car business for this dealer at the moment.  Because supply was so limited, they're tacking on an amount over MSRP.  Why?  Because if they didn't, they'd pretty much have to become a used car lot.  As it was, there were plenty of used Porsches, a C8 Corvette, Audi RS5 and various Aston Martins and such.  Oh, the amount over MSRP?  $30k.  Yup.  So anyways, the car I drove had tons of power, handled great.  Matt Farah actually said it's better than a BMW M3.  Braking was quite good but I didn't push it.  The interior was well appointed and high quality.  I managed to find the button to make the seat stop messaging.  As it turns out, my priorities have changed from usual as an accident last fall left me with 3 fractures in my back and a couple ribs, so absorbing bumps has become something I care about.  In the end, it was an entertaining trip and my conversations with all the dealer people were good.  The MSRP of this particular Caddy was eighty grand, so figure $110k, if I decided to buy it.

Oh, did I mention that I have a coupon from Cadillac to get a free $75 Amazon card for test driving a Cadillac?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 05, 2022, 09:33:01 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on March 05, 2022, 05:21:11 PM

So today, I went to check out a new car.  My son and I drove down to the dealership and I did the typical hand over of my license for them to copy.  Name, tel number, email as usual.  While he was getting the car, a Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing, we looked at one in the showroom.  We found some fun things about the car business for this dealer at the moment.  Because supply was so limited, they're tacking on an amount over MSRP.  Why?  Because if they didn't, they'd pretty much have to become a used car lot.  As it was, there were plenty of used Porsches, a C8 Corvette, Audi RS5 and various Aston Martins and such.  Oh, the amount over MSRP?  $30k.  Yup.  So anyways, the car I drove had tons of power, handled great.  Matt Farah actually said it's better than a BMW M3.  Braking was quite good but I didn't push it.  The interior was well appointed and high quality.  I managed to find the button to make the seat stop messaging.  As it turns out, my priorities have changed from usual as an accident last fall left me with 3 fractures in my back and a couple ribs, so absorbing bumps has become something I care about.  In the end, it was an entertaining trip and my conversations with all the dealer people were good.  The MSRP of this particular Caddy was eighty grand, so figure $110k, if I decided to buy it.

Oh, did I mention that I have a coupon from Cadillac to get a free $75 Amazon card for test driving a Cadillac?

Phew, I was getting worried we'd lost another one for a minute there...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 06, 2022, 07:23:15 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 05, 2022, 10:57:05 AM

I'm surprised the S&P is not down further..

You're not the only one - A Global Financial Crisis is Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXASSB2vOO4)

I'm sure there's plenty of stuff like this out there (this one being backed by the posters love of Bitcoin), but as long as you understand the potential bias, it's worth the listen.  I also like this one by Ray Dalio - Changing World Order (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xguam0TKMw8)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 06, 2022, 07:47:33 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on March 05, 2022, 05:21:11 PM

So today, I went to check out a new car.  My son and I drove down to the dealership and I did the typical hand over of my license for them to copy.  Name, tel number, email as usual.  While he was getting the car, a Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing, we looked at one in the showroom.  We found some fun things about the car business for this dealer at the moment.  Because supply was so limited, they're tacking on an amount over MSRP.  Why?  Because if they didn't, they'd pretty much have to become a used car lot.  As it was, there were plenty of used Porsches, a C8 Corvette, Audi RS5 and various Aston Martins and such.  Oh, the amount over MSRP?  $30k.  Yup.  So anyways, the car I drove had tons of power, handled great.  Matt Farah actually said it's better than a BMW M3.  Braking was quite good but I didn't push it.  The interior was well appointed and high quality.  I managed to find the button to make the seat stop messaging.  As it turns out, my priorities have changed from usual as an accident last fall left me with 3 fractures in my back and a couple ribs, so absorbing bumps has become something I care about.  In the end, it was an entertaining trip and my conversations with all the dealer people were good.  The MSRP of this particular Caddy was eighty grand, so figure $110k, if I decided to buy it.

Oh, did I mention that I have a coupon from Cadillac to get a free $75 Amazon card for test driving a Cadillac?

Wow!  That car is over double the value of many of the houses I've lived in not too many years ago.  Hope it helps you continue to heal.  I had a Jeep a couple vehicles back.  I could not go much over a half hour in that thing without stretching out the kink it put in my back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 06, 2022, 08:36:48 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 06, 2022, 07:47:33 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on March 05, 2022, 05:21:11 PM

So today, I went to check out a new car.  My son and I drove down to the dealership and I did the typical hand over of my license for them to copy.  Name, tel number, email as usual.  While he was getting the car, a Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing, we looked at one in the showroom.  We found some fun things about the car business for this dealer at the moment.  Because supply was so limited, they're tacking on an amount over MSRP.  Why?  Because if they didn't, they'd pretty much have to become a used car lot.  As it was, there were plenty of used Porsches, a C8 Corvette, Audi RS5 and various Aston Martins and such.  Oh, the amount over MSRP?  $30k.  Yup.  So anyways, the car I drove had tons of power, handled great.  Matt Farah actually said it's better than a BMW M3.  Braking was quite good but I didn't push it.  The interior was well appointed and high quality.  I managed to find the button to make the seat stop messaging.  As it turns out, my priorities have changed from usual as an accident last fall left me with 3 fractures in my back and a couple ribs, so absorbing bumps has become something I care about.  In the end, it was an entertaining trip and my conversations with all the dealer people were good.  The MSRP of this particular Caddy was eighty grand, so figure $110k, if I decided to buy it.

Oh, did I mention that I have a coupon from Cadillac to get a free $75 Amazon card for test driving a Cadillac?

Wow!  That car is over double the value of many of the houses I've lived in not too many years ago.  Hope it helps you continue to heal.  I had a Jeep a couple vehicles back.  I could not go much over a half hour in that thing without stretching out the kink it put in my back.

DH was telling me that Oakland Toyota has a 2022 RAV4 listed for $97k, which is $50k over the $47k MSRP. WTF?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 06, 2022, 11:42:21 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 06, 2022, 08:36:48 AM

DH was telling me that Oakland Toyota has a 2022 RAV4 listed for $97k, which is $50k over the $47k MSRP. WTF?

The MSRP for a RAV4 is $47K?  WTF?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: scottish on March 06, 2022, 01:26:59 PM

Interesting.   Have they jacked up prices the same amount for factory orders?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on March 06, 2022, 01:28:42 PM

Well maybe the craziness in the supply chain / car prices will finally cause people to break the "lease cycle."  Can you imagine having 3 year lease that just happens to come up in 2022?  I suppose you would be forced to exercise your purchase option and perhaps that encourages longer term car ownership for these folks. 

I'm thankful for my 11yr old SUV which looks better every day!  Wish the gas mileage were better, but I don't drive all that much.  Simply cannot imagine buying a new car in this environment, paying a price that you know is above market for an asset that you know will depreciate rapidly over the first 3-4 years of its life (not to mention losing 100% of the premium you have paid).  Whew.....my SUV may be around for another 11 years!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: DaTrill on March 06, 2022, 02:02:54 PM

Toyota Land Cruiser price above MSRP is even worse.  Inflation or supply chain issues, but either way, prices are ripping. 

https://jalopnik.com/120-000-late-model-land-cruisers-are-just-normal-now-1848562139 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 06, 2022, 03:20:45 PM

Quote from: arcturus on March 06, 2022, 01:28:42 PM

Simply cannot imagine buying a new car in this environment, paying a price that you know is above market for an asset that you know will depreciate rapidly over the first 3-4 years of its life (not to mention losing 100% of the premium you have paid). 

You silly!   If they double the car price, that means it's an asset worth twice as much!   And think of the trade in value with all that extra money in the car!   Better buy two at that price for double the value!

:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on March 06, 2022, 07:28:28 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 06, 2022, 03:20:45 PM

Quote from: arcturus on March 06, 2022, 01:28:42 PM

Simply cannot imagine buying a new car in this environment, paying a price that you know is above market for an asset that you know will depreciate rapidly over the first 3-4 years of its life (not to mention losing 100% of the premium you have paid). 

You silly!   If they double the car price, that means it's an asset worth twice as much!   And think of the trade in value with all that extra money in the car!   Better buy two at that price for double the value!

:)

Good point -- I stand corrected!  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on March 06, 2022, 07:44:15 PM

Quote from: arcturus on March 06, 2022, 01:28:42 PM

Well maybe the craziness in the supply chain / car prices will finally cause people to break the "lease cycle."  Can you imagine having 3 year lease that just happens to come up in 2022?  I suppose you would be forced to exercise your purchase option and perhaps that encourages longer term car ownership for these folks. 

I'm thankful for my 11yr old SUV which looks better every day!  Wish the gas mileage were better, but I don't drive all that much.  Simply cannot imagine buying a new car in this environment, paying a price that you know is above market for an asset that you know will depreciate rapidly over the first 3-4 years of its life (not to mention losing 100% of the premium you have paid).  Whew.....my SUV may be around for another 11 years!

My lease comes due Nov this years. It’s. A 2019 Audi A4 I leased three years ago. Buy out price is 24k!!!!! Original value was $50k. Guess I’d be stupid for not buying the car out.

First two cars I owned. First one I drove into the ground. Second one was paid off and 8 years old but totaled in a car wreck (everyone was fine, the repairs were just worth more than the car). So since I was commuting every day (so not driving much) on trains into Manhattan I decided to lease and get a nice Audi. A year later I moved to Charlotte right before COVID hit. Who knew my buyout would become so valuable.

I was thinking of buying a new Ford Bronco Sport, since I want a car than can handle light off road and outdoor trips. But I basically have to order it and wait nine months. Cost would be 40k, but I think I’ll just buy my Audi out for now and see how the car market plays out the next few years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 06, 2022, 09:18:34 PM

Looks like oil is marching towards $150 a barell and beyond.  This economy will slip on oil very soon.  I hate that people are dieing defending their land from a madman.  For us thus far our only suffering is inflation.  Personally I'm glad that the inflation and coming recession are here now and not later.  Why?   For my own selfish reasons I guess.  I'm still working.  Planning to TEST-FIRE in 14 months.  I'm taking a month and a half off in May 2023 to hike as much of the Appalachian Trail as my body allows.  My earliest official quit my job date is August 1st 2023.  I think I'm going to work the month of July in 2023 and allow my coworkers to take their summer vacations.  August is a wait and see.  I may work it and I may go to Maine to restart my hike.  If the economy still looks bleak in August, I'll continue working and play it out month to month.  I can retire in January or February in 2024 and complete the trail then.  We have plenty of vacations scheduled to appease ourselves till then.  Work is getting easier every day.  The pandemic improved the workplace in ways that would have taken decades before.  I'm not going to panic sell our stock portions of the portfolio.  I have not the talent to try and time the market rise and fall.  For now it's just more DCA as always.  I'm trying to get my mind right for the 20, 30 or more percent market declines that may be coming. It always comes back.  The first time the American economy fails to return, I'd suggest training with and possessing weapons.  Because if that happens, what you see in Ukraine will be happening here.   I'm confident it will all work out.  Especially for those of us lucky and talented enough to have earned our way into this thread. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 07, 2022, 08:45:06 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 06, 2022, 09:18:34 PM

Looks like oil is marching towards $150 a barell and beyond.  This economy will slip on oil very soon.  I hate that people are dieing defending their land from a madman.  For us thus far our only suffering is inflation.  Personally I'm glad that the inflation and coming recession are here now and not later.  Why?   For my own selfish reasons I guess.  I'm still working.  Planning to TEST-FIRE in 14 months.  I'm taking a month and a half off in May 2023 to hike as much of the Appalachian Trail as my body allows.  My earliest official quit my job date is August 1st 2023.  I think I'm going to work the month of July in 2023 and allow my coworkers to take their summer vacations.  August is a wait and see.  I may work it and I may go to Maine to restart my hike.  If the economy still looks bleak in August, I'll continue working and play it out month to month.  I can retire in January or February in 2024 and complete the trail then.  We have plenty of vacations scheduled to appease ourselves till then.  Work is getting easier every day.  The pandemic improved the workplace in ways that would have taken decades before.  I'm not going to panic sell our stock portions of the portfolio.  I have not the talent to try and time the market rise and fall.  For now it's just more DCA as always.  I'm trying to get my mind right for the 20, 30 or more percent market declines that may be coming. It always comes back.  The first time the American economy fails to return, I'd suggest training with and possessing weapons.  Because if that happens, what you see in Ukraine will be happening here.   I'm confident it will all work out.  Especially for those of us lucky and talented enough to have earned our way into this thread.

Maybe, you can write a book like Bill Bryson. (A Walk In The Woods)  Do you have an addict to travel with like he did?  It would be sort of cool if you could take a laptop and do the travel log thing.  I'll bet people would enjoy it if you shared something like that.  You could even sell it and pay for the trip.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 07, 2022, 11:02:00 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 07, 2022, 08:45:06 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 06, 2022, 09:18:34 PM

Looks like oil is marching towards $150 a barell and beyond.  This economy will slip on oil very soon.  I hate that people are dieing defending their land from a madman.  For us thus far our only suffering is inflation.  Personally I'm glad that the inflation and coming recession are here now and not later.  Why?   For my own selfish reasons I guess.  I'm still working.  Planning to TEST-FIRE in 14 months.  I'm taking a month and a half off in May 2023 to hike as much of the Appalachian Trail as my body allows.  My earliest official quit my job date is August 1st 2023.  I think I'm going to work the month of July in 2023 and allow my coworkers to take their summer vacations.  August is a wait and see.  I may work it and I may go to Maine to restart my hike.  If the economy still looks bleak in August, I'll continue working and play it out month to month.  I can retire in January or February in 2024 and complete the trail then.  We have plenty of vacations scheduled to appease ourselves till then.  Work is getting easier every day.  The pandemic improved the workplace in ways that would have taken decades before.  I'm not going to panic sell our stock portions of the portfolio.  I have not the talent to try and time the market rise and fall.  For now it's just more DCA as always.  I'm trying to get my mind right for the 20, 30 or more percent market declines that may be coming. It always comes back.  The first time the American economy fails to return, I'd suggest training with and possessing weapons.  Because if that happens, what you see in Ukraine will be happening here.   I'm confident it will all work out.  Especially for those of us lucky and talented enough to have earned our way into this thread.

Maybe, you can write a book like Bill Bryson. (A Walk In The Woods)  Do you have an addict to travel with like he did?  It would be sort of cool if you could take a laptop and do the travel log thing.  I'll bet people would enjoy it if you shared something like that.  You could even sell it and pay for the trip.

People do make documentary films and blogs of their journey.  I'll probably do some social media mostly as my own journal.  It won't be a continuous thru hike for me more of a section hike cumulation towards completion.  I don't think my homelife obligations would allow for a dedicated six month journey right now.  Hopefully if sucessful on the AT, there could be attempts of the PCT and CDT.  Both are longer and more rugged trails with much higher elevation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 11, 2022, 08:17:04 AM

You're enough amount.  The absence of panic posts on this thread proves that most all of you have your enough amount.  Bob Brinker of the famous, "Money Talk Program" called it the land of critical mass.  What a place to be for peace of mind.   Recently our accounts dipped 300K or nearly 10%.  Even if we dive again and see a 20% or 30% drop we are ok.  We'd still have over 2M with a 30% drop.  Since were still working it really doesn't matter if it does.  At those levels I'd be tempted to throw some of the hundreds of thousands of dollars in reserve into the market.  It took this period of regression for me to truly realize our position.   
I dipped down into the world this week.  Our son totaled his car on Valentine's day.   He's physically ok, but was shook up emotionally for a while.  Now he's back at work and we're trying to get him back driving.  So we went used car shopping.  In prices he could afford, we were visiting car lots in the not so nice parts of the city.  I've never seen so much overpriced junk!  Even $10,000 doesn't get you a nice car right now.  There are many desperate people out there car shopping right now.  They don't even have $2,000 to spare.  Now go back to the above paragraph.  Our NW is 3M.  What the actual F am I doing walking those used car lots?  It's tough love.  My wife and I because of decades of hard work, can enjoy whatever our 830 credit or bank account can buy.  We bought him a car and it's gone now.  He has to work his way back.  It's hard not to helecopter parent when you are flying a damned Chinook!  It can be hard getting young adults to accept independence.  Having the wherewithal to make their little financial problems disappear is both a blessing and a curse.
Wonderful, awesome, good friends.  They are the true treasure.
A friend at work sold him a 2007 Toyota Camry in good shape for half the price of the junk on the car lots.  I hopefully never have to step foot on a used car lot ever again.
Hope y'all enjoyed me sharing a few thoughts.   You are all wonderful, awesome good friends.  You didn't get to your positions in life by accident.   You made the right choices along the way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 11, 2022, 08:41:37 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 11, 2022, 08:17:04 AM

You're enough amount.  The absence of panic posts on this thread proves that most all of you have your enough amount.  Bob Brinkier of the famous, "Money Talk Program" called it the land of critical mass.  What a place to be for peace of mind.   Recently our accounts dipped 300K or nearly 10%.  Even if we dive again and see a 20% or 30% drop we are ok.  We'd still have over 2M with a 30% drop.  Since were still working it really doesn't matter if it does.  At those levels I'd be tempted to throw some of the hundreds of thousands of dollars in reserve into the market.  It took this period of regression for me to truly realize our position.   
I dipped down into the world this week.  Our son totaled his car on Valentine's day.   He's physically ok, but was shook up emotionally for a while.  Now he's back at work and we're trying to get him back driving.  So we went used car shopping.  In prices he could afford, we were visiting car lots in the not so nice parts of the city.  I've never seen so much overpriced junk!  Even $10,000 doesn't get you a nice car right now.  There are many desperate people out there car shopping right now.  They don't even have $2,000 to spare.  Now go back to the above paragraph.  Our NW is 3M.  What the actual F am I doing walking those used car lots?  It's tough love.  My wife and I because of decades of hard work, can enjoy whatever our 830 credit or bank account can buy.  We bought him a car and it's gone now.  He has to work his way back.  It's hard not to helecopter parent when you are flying a damned Chinook!  It can be hard getting young adults to accept independence.  Having the wherewithal to make their little financial problems disappear is both a blessing and a curse.
Wonderful, awesome, good friends.  They are the true treasure.
A friend at work sold him a 2007 Toyota Camry in good shape for half the price of the junk on the car lots.  I hopefully never have to step foot on a used car lot ever again.
Hope y'all enjoyed me sharing a few thoughts.   You are all wonderful, awesome good friends.

Thanks.  Some good parenting there!

Quote

  You didn't get to your positions in life by accident.   You made the right choices along the way.

You could say we got here by not-accident.

We're, collectively, the LUCKY group of people who made the right choices along the way.   We were lucky because we didn't have a crippling accident early in life, or a debilitating disease, which in the US would have negated most of our good choices.   

I say this because I remember sitting in a surgeon's waiting room to see how my wife's operation went -- an operation she would not have had just a few years earlier because we were poor and without health insurance.

It was pure luck my wife is still alive and well.   All our good choices and hard work would have been for nothing had she needed that operation just a few years earlier.

I'm one tooth short because I had a one go bad when we were poor.   A crown was an unimaginably large expense so it got pulled instead.   I'm lucky my only untreated medical condition was that small.   Had I gotten the cancer on my tongue then instead of decades later I, too would be dead.

That's one reason why I completely support a national health system in some form so that all the people in our country get the health care they need.   The other reason, of course, is because it's the right thing to do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 11, 2022, 08:56:53 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 11, 2022, 08:41:37 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 11, 2022, 08:17:04 AM

You're enough amount.  The absence of panic posts on this thread proves that most all of you have your enough amount.  Bob Brinkier of the famous, "Money Talk Program" called it the land of critical mass.  What a place to be for peace of mind.   Recently our accounts dipped 300K or nearly 10%.  Even if we dive again and see a 20% or 30% drop we are ok.  We'd still have over 2M with a 30% drop.  Since were still working it really doesn't matter if it does.  At those levels I'd be tempted to throw some of the hundreds of thousands of dollars in reserve into the market.  It took this period of regression for me to truly realize our position.   
I dipped down into the world this week.  Our son totaled his car on Valentine's day.   He's physically ok, but was shook up emotionally for a while.  Now he's back at work and we're trying to get him back driving.  So we went used car shopping.  In prices he could afford, we were visiting car lots in the not so nice parts of the city.  I've never seen so much overpriced junk!  Even $10,000 doesn't get you a nice car right now.  There are many desperate people out there car shopping right now.  They don't even have $2,000 to spare.  Now go back to the above paragraph.  Our NW is 3M.  What the actual F am I doing walking those used car lots?  It's tough love.  My wife and I because of decades of hard work, can enjoy whatever our 830 credit or bank account can buy.  We bought him a car and it's gone now.  He has to work his way back.  It's hard not to helecopter parent when you are flying a damned Chinook!  It can be hard getting young adults to accept independence.  Having the wherewithal to make their little financial problems disappear is both a blessing and a curse.
Wonderful, awesome, good friends.  They are the true treasure.
A friend at work sold him a 2007 Toyota Camry in good shape for half the price of the junk on the car lots.  I hopefully never have to step foot on a used car lot ever again.
Hope y'all enjoyed me sharing a few thoughts.   You are all wonderful, awesome good friends.

Thanks.  Some good parenting there!

Quote

  You didn't get to your positions in life by accident.   You made the right choices along the way.

You could say we got here by not-accident.

We're, collectively, the LUCKY group of people who made the right choices along the way.   We were lucky because we didn't have a crippling accident early in life, or a debilitating disease, which in the US would have negated most of our good choices.   

I say this because I remember sitting in a surgeon's waiting room to see how my wife's operation went -- an operation she would not have had just a few years earlier because we were poor and without health insurance.

It was pure luck my wife is still alive and well.   All our good choices and hard work would have been for nothing had she needed that operation just a few years earlier.

I'm one tooth short because I had a one go bad when we were poor.   A crown was an unimaginably large expense so it got pulled instead.   I'm lucky my only untreated medical condition was that small.   Had I gotten the cancer on my tongue then instead of decades later I, too would be dead.

That's one reason why I completely support a national health system in some form so that all the people in our country get the health care they need.   The other reason, of course, is because it's the right thing to do.

Good words SwordGuy.  The young man I'm speaking of fought cancer at 14.  Only being lucky enough to get treatment at the best children's cancer hospital in the world saved him.  It's hard to try and not give the world to a kid who's been through that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 11, 2022, 10:23:01 AM

Whoa boy, this is timely! DH's son still lives with us and he is pathologically shy. Had he been tested as a kid, he would most likely given an Aspberger's diagnosis at the very least.  Yes, I'm aware it's no longer recognized, but it was when he was a kid. He is almost 30 and hasn't the least desire to fly the coop. He works full time, but his position isn't permanent. We live in a stupid-high COLA. We're shopping for a condo for him, because that's the only way to get him out.

A one bedroom condo in an older, but decent complex is a "steal" if you can find one for $425k-ish. Sadly, it's about the same price as renting. We are torn as to the right move. It's easy to have him at home, but that's not what's best for him, in our opinion. He is pretty independent, except he's under our roof. He does his own laundry, car maintenance, pet care, and keeps all of our things that plug in humming along. He inherited his mom's car when she died, so I'm sure he will keep it running as long as he can. It's a 2004 Toyota, so it still has plenty of life in it. He has few bills, but he pays everything but car insurance and cell, because at the moment, we're mustachians and they're way cheaper that way. He has no debt. He also has no friends besides his work family. Happily, they love him. He is smart, conscientious and reliable.

We can afford it, and we will have to be the bank, because cash is king in this market. We plan to buy with cash, then get a mortgage before DH retires.

Did I say we can afford it? We're already "beyond" and we will be receiving a large inheritance from DH's mother's estate soon. It's money we will never need, so the kids will get it eventually anyway.

Since the topic came up here, I decided to ask all of you for your thoughts. We are not fans of Economic Outpatienting, but I have no experience with kids, particularly one so painfully shy. Related facts: DH is a widower. He has a daughter, and we plan to give an equivalent amount* to her.

*Our plan is to gift each of them $100k of their grandmother's money, so Bonus Kid will still be on the hook for $325k-ish, but we will be the bank.

Sorry if this is scattered, but we have an appointment to see a new listing in a few minutes. I'm happy to clarify, discuss, etc. later. And I'm old school and won't blubber like a baby if facepunches are in order. Your thoughts are appreciated.

I should add that DH's mom and her pal, AL Z. Heimer lived with us for six or seven years and Bonus Kid was a a contributing member of her care team. He was good with her and that gave us enough freedom to stay sane.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 11, 2022, 10:33:01 AM

My grandparents left me $ instead of just my parents, so I think giving your son down payment money and acting as the bank is reasonable if you are giving an equivalent benefit to the daughter. Hear me out. My hubs is still butter his sister got more college $ and support money from his parents. It’s been 25 years since he was in college. IDK. Kids do compare. The Bay Area is super expensive to be a young buyer right now. Hence why we are considering a multi-generational build.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 11, 2022, 11:05:15 AM

Wow Dicey.  I feel such a kinship with you guys.  It makes me smile that the kind young man helped take care of grandmother.  I think someone willing to invest that love and compassion is worthy of the risk.  Unless there is a chance of the real estate market falling, it's not a bad move if he can afford it.  The 100K inherited down payment definitely will help smooth the ride.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 11, 2022, 11:32:24 AM

@Dicey  I think the blanket 'no outpatient support for kids' is a bit overrated.  In your case, it's a situation that makes sense.  At 30 years old and assisting with a real estate purchase, it's not like you're establishing a trend of handing out support to a formative teenager that will come to expect bail outs.  Also, as you say, the money will eventually go to these children equally, so why not hopefully improve their quality of life in ways that you are able to, while simultaneously improving yours.

I might be biased because I'm not opposed to helping my children out either by paying their way through college so that they can graduate with no formal debt (although I might do what my parents did and charge them rent or some repayment early in their career, before marriage and saving for a home, etc.).  My son is looking at trade schools, so there might be extra money for him at some point depending on what his younger sister does... 

It's a complicated topic, but too many times I see FIRE folks proudly proclaim that their children will pay for college and everything just like they had to.  Especially in these times of high inflation and student debt, that might come back to bite them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on March 11, 2022, 04:10:02 PM

@Dicey good for you and sounds like it might be the right game plan for all involved!  My hat is off to those of you with adult children in the house -- that can be stressful over long periods.  The only thing you might consider is whether you should document the $325k that you will be the bank for so that you don't get someone (IRS or otherwise) inquiring as to whether the payments coming in from your son should be treated as income.  Maybe just look into whether you need to paper over that a bit for record-keeping purposes.  Not an expert, but I thought I read something once.....

Agree with the comments that cash is king right now and unfortunately, my investment approach has been to try not to hold cash!  Wrong move!  So I'm taking each market move down directly on the chin!  I think inflation may be here to stay for the remainder of the year, so maybe buying a condo is not such a bad move.  As for me, I just feel that there's no shelter right now.  Have some annual cash incentives coming in over the next 3-4 months, so maybe that gives me some cash to invest (or not).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Ozlady on March 11, 2022, 06:05:03 PM

I am one for giving with a warm hand rather than a cold one...


I read somewhere that children really appreciate a helping hand between the ages of 25 to 35 ...when their needs are at the max..

I have seen for myself a multi millionaire scrooge (he is nearly 80) who is withholding ALL his wealth from his only son because " you know..., once you have money, they will always visit!"

OMG!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fru-Gal on March 11, 2022, 08:23:13 PM

This is an interesting situation and one that is relevant to me since in our family inter-generational households (lifelong) are the norm. I’m curious — does your stepson want to move? Also in our social circles this is increasingly common problem/situation right now,  both the living with parents as young adults and the reduced social contact. It’s important to remember that in addition to the housing costs and the  Internet/smartphones replacing all serendipitous interactions, we have just gone through two years of pandemic. The really hard part is when adult children don’t contribute, but at least it seems like that’s not the issue here. Also I’m not trying to criticize but rather just explore possibilities, since this is some thing that affects our family as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 12, 2022, 07:16:46 PM

Quote from: Fru-Gal on March 11, 2022, 08:23:13 PM

This is an interesting situation and one that is relevant to me since in our family inter-generational households (lifelong) are the norm. I’m curious — does your stepson want to move? Also in our social circles this is increasingly common problem/situation right now,  both the living with parents as young adults and the reduced social contact. It’s important to remember that in addition to the housing costs and the  Internet/smartphones replacing all serendipitous interactions, we have just gone through two years of pandemic. The really hard part is when adult children don’t contribute, but at least it seems like that’s not the issue here. Also I’m not trying to criticize but rather just explore possibilities, since this is some thing that affects our family as well.

Wow, I didn't expect so much compassionate insight. I was totally expecting a flurry of facepunches You guys are the best!

BK has absolutely no interest in anything that's not already familiar. I simply cannot fathom being like this, but I believe it's mostly not a choice, it's just the way he's wired. DH is the chillest dude on the planet and just says, "He'll figure it out." Um, no. No he won't. He's happy with the status quo.

DH and I want to travel and we want to downsize and we want to be snowbirds and we want to do a lot of things. DH retires next month. His last day of work is actually Bonus Kid's 30th birthday. We want him to learn how to live independently. He's perfectly capable, but he's going to need a hard shove out of the nest. His job is not permanent because people tend not to leave, therefore no permanent slots have opened up. He's in line for the next one because they absolutely love him (He's so smart and so afraid of making mistakes that he never sets a foot wrong), but there are simply no permanent slots available. He does have healthcare because of an ACA rule that says after you've worked XXX number of hours, they have to put you on the plan even if you're not permanent, so that's good. The point is that nobody will give him a mortgage without a permanent j-o-b.

Update, kinda: We like the place we looked at yesterday. It would be a good fit for him. After we looked at it, he came home, got on his e-bike and clocked the time to work. He says 8-12 minutes, depending on traffic. I think that means he really likes it. The listing agent is someone we know, so fingers crossed that the other offerss don't come in outrageously high.

The place is incredibly outdated. It needs a full gut kitchen reno, plus paint, flooring and whatever. We figure we will do the interior work as a gift. We did the same for his sister as a thanks-for-eloping gift. We doubt he'll ever get married, so this will help keep things even-ish.

Oh and we're thinking we will all three be on the title. This is primarily because it's an HOA and we want to have a seat at the table. DH knows how things work, and wants to be sure they keep the place up as it transitions from rental units to condos. BK will never, ever speak up at a board meeting. I'm not sure what the tax implications would be, but our tax appointment is coming up, so we'll talk to our CPA soon.

Any additional thoughts are welcome.

Oh, in a fortuitous stroke, one of our tenants will be moving soon. She will not be taking her furniture or the majority of the furnishings with her. I told her we'd be happy to clear out anything she chooses not to take. Some of it might work for BK's first place. She's been a great tenant and we're sorry to see her go, but rents have skyrocketed, so the boost in rent will help cover part of this new place and free stuff is always appreciated for a first place, right?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 12, 2022, 08:23:06 PM

Speaking of rents, we are seeing a similar rise up here in Oregon.

For the last 5 years I've been charging $1100/m for my 2 bed trailer and similar properties are now going for $1400. As much as I love my current tenants there comes a time where I just have to put up the rate in fairness to me and other renters. I mean this is a business after all and my RE taxes and insurance have been creeping up 10% a year.

Of course I tell this to the Wife of renters and she has a bit of a meltdown about how hard things are and BTW you ARE going to replace all our carpets and the split linoleum on the kitchen right?.. Umm no!.. The reason it will still be $200/m under market is partly because I suspect the building will be in the landfill in the next 3 to 5 years and you (so far) have been great renters. But I'm not going to replace stuff that a strip of gorilla tape and a throw rug will do almost as well.

I suspect she was giving me a bit of a sob story.. I gave the proposal to her & Hubby in writing and he replies with.. "sure no problem".

Honestly I can't wait to be out of the slumlord business but its just easier to keep collecting rent than it is to go through the hassle of selling or disposing of the building, especially while working full time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Money Badger on March 12, 2022, 09:07:15 PM

After 8 years on MMM, glad to announce we've made it to this thread crossing $2M in equity!  THis is inclusive of paid off home with value estimated quite conservatively/low net of usual transaction costs so still about $400K to go to FIRE comfortably.    There was a windfall last year that definitely helped things accelerate dramatically.  The problem now is deciding when to detach from corporate life which seems almost normal... Our camping buddies breadwinner is a few years older and just FIREd so they are now traveling in their RV all over...   I also love to camp, but know I'll need more purpose than just driving around to parks...  So started getting involved in groups / sidelines that speak to me so there's a new mission to look forward to when I pull the trigger to FIRE.   After so many twists and turns along the way, grace alone got us here!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 13, 2022, 07:22:24 AM

Quote from: Money Badger on March 12, 2022, 09:07:15 PM

After 8 years on MMM, glad to announce we've made it to this thread crossing $2M in equity!  THis is inclusive of paid off home with value estimated quite conservatively/low net of usual transaction costs so still about $400K to go to FIRE comfortably.    There was a windfall last year that definitely helped things accelerate dramatically.  The problem now is deciding when to detach from corporate life which seems almost normal... Our camping buddies breadwinner is a few years older and just FIREd so they are now traveling in their RV all over...   I also love to camp, but know I'll need more purpose than just driving around to parks...  So started getting involved in groups / sidelines that speak to me so there's a new mission to look forward to when I pull the trigger to FIRE.   After so many twists and turns along the way, grace alone got us here!

Congrats!   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 13, 2022, 07:44:24 AM

Quote from: Money Badger on March 12, 2022, 09:07:15 PM

After 8 years on MMM, glad to announce we've made it to this thread crossing $2M in equity!  THis is inclusive of paid off home with value estimated quite conservatively/low net of usual transaction costs so still about $400K to go to FIRE comfortably.    There was a windfall last year that definitely helped things accelerate dramatically.  The problem now is deciding when to detach from corporate life which seems almost normal... Our camping buddies breadwinner is a few years older and just FIREd so they are now traveling in their RV all over...   I also love to camp, but know I'll need more purpose than just driving around to parks...  So started getting involved in groups / sidelines that speak to me so there's a new mission to look forward to when I pull the trigger to FIRE.   After so many twists and turns along the way, grace alone got us here!

Congrats - it will be great to be in control of what you do with your time once you retire.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Money Badger on March 13, 2022, 09:17:24 AM

Thanks for the kind words y'all!   Oddly, COVID and work from home let us explore life as we wanted FIRE to be...  Saving 10 hours of commuting weekly and dramatically reduced automobile expenses... reduced lunchtime eating out...  More flexibility to handle things around the house and expand our involvement with our neighborhood peeps...  Seems the way we're supposed to live instead of constantly stressed out commuting.  Oddly enough, technology enables people to go back closer to "cottage industry" the way most work was pre industrial-evolution?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on March 13, 2022, 09:54:04 AM

Quote from: Money Badger on March 13, 2022, 09:17:24 AM

Thanks for the kind words y'all!   Oddly, COVID and work from home let us explore life as we wanted FIRE to be...  Saving 10 hours of commuting weekly and dramatically reduced automobile expenses... reduced lunchtime eating out...  More flexibility to handle things around the house and expand our involvement with our neighborhood peeps...  Seems the way we're supposed to live instead of constantly stressed out commuting.  Oddly enough, technology enables people to go back closer to "cottage industry" the way most work was pre industrial-evolution?

Hope not. Much of that cottage industry was piece work that got the whole family involved to be able to feed everyone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tennisray on March 13, 2022, 05:00:38 PM

DW and I were just about into “beyond” territory. She FIRE’d in December. In my mind, I realize, with our low expenses, we will never be able to spend this $ in our lifetime. However, I find myself unhappy/anxious about the combo market losses/inflation. I think we were so good at accumulating due to looking at saving as a “game”. We figured how to hack the game and enjoyed watching our nest egg grow. Now I feel (occasionally) that we are “losing”. I’m working on understanding that we won the game already so we don’t need to play anymore.  Just ranting a bit. I’m thinking others have written about the transition from accumulation to spending phase and how it may take some time to get used to.  I’m sure in a few years when our egg grows I’ll laugh at myself for ever being worried.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 14, 2022, 04:59:30 AM

Th at is so sad, IMO. It might be less so if you were a SWAMI, but you didn't say that. It seems that fear is keeping you from living the life you worked so hard for. Time is the only thing you can't buy mire of.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 14, 2022, 08:03:10 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 14, 2022, 04:59:30 AM

Th at is so sad, IMO. It might be less so if you were a SWAMI, but you didn't say that. It seems that fear is keeping you from living the life you worked so hard for. Time is the only thing you can't buy mire of.

It is but.. Remember these guys are very new to RE. Like everything else its a process. I remember a number of years (and millions of $$ ago) where I thought exactly the same.

Now I'm nonchalantly wondering if I should buy some more VTSAX now or wait for a 20% pullback.. Either way it doesn't matter much.

The fact I am working full time right now is not part of the argument you hear me?..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 14, 2022, 11:42:25 PM

A quick update: we offered full asking price on the condo and for a few thrilling hours it seemed we were the winning offer. At 4:45 an offer was submitted that included a 5% over the best offer clause, so we had to up our bid to $425k, which is exactly what I predicted it was going to go for. Now to figure out how the hell to structure this deal to keep the tax man from our door.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on March 15, 2022, 06:22:58 AM

Congrats to you and to bonus kid!  Everything you laid out in your previous post sounded like a well thought out and excellent plan.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 15, 2022, 06:47:16 AM

Woohoo! I can’t believe I am saying this, but it seems like you got a great deal! Considering you know how to renovate, it will be a good family planning situation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on March 15, 2022, 08:33:35 AM

Sounds great!  I'm sure it will be a bit of a wrench for BK, but presumably he can continue to spend lots of time at yours to begin with while he builds up some new routines at his new place?  Exciting though!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 15, 2022, 02:02:32 PM

Awesome..:)

Isn't it amazing to be able to just write a check for $425k...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 15, 2022, 02:28:50 PM

Quote from: tennisray on March 13, 2022, 05:00:38 PM

DW and I were just about into “beyond” territory. She FIRE’d in December. In my mind, I realize, with our low expenses, we will never be able to spend this $ in our lifetime. However, I find myself unhappy/anxious about the combo market losses/inflation. I think we were so good at accumulating due to looking at saving as a “game”. We figured how to hack the game and enjoyed watching our nest egg grow. Now I feel (occasionally) that we are “losing”. I’m working on understanding that we won the game already so we don’t need to play anymore.  Just ranting a bit. I’m thinking others have written about the transition from accumulation to spending phase and how it may take some time to get used to.  I’m sure in a few years when our egg grows I’ll laugh at myself for ever being worried.

If you guys are retiring, you are totally gonna lose the game you are currently playing.  There's no way you'll die with near as much money (or be able to spend as much money, if you turn spendy) as if you were to keep working.  That is just a fact. 

When I plug my current LNW numbers into Firecalc ($3.6M, FIREing this year @ 50, SS at 70, spending up to $140k/yr) I on average will at the age of 80 have $8M in todays dollars.  There is the slightest chance my plan even fails if I didnt budge on the spending.  If I work another 15 years I on average will at the age of 80 have $20M.  What a putz I am for retiring when it comes to that game?  Its not like its even like I'm agreeing to go to jail or something by continuing to work, I work from home with quite a bit of hour flexibility (its my mind that is captive somehow for the full day).  Heck, my father still works today, from home, 10-20 hrs wk, and I think its great he does so with mom just passing.

Don't get me wrong, I played the game too, and I think that game drives you (and everyone here) quickly to the point you describe as "we will never be able to spend this $ in our lifetime".  Its similar to the other games we play that get us to go to work every day (school when we were young), and do our best at work (school when we were young), and scrimp and save at home.  But you have to decide when that game is not worth playing.  Successful people keep working harder and earning more and making personal sacrifices sometimes just because to not do that is "to be lazy", to not have that drive, etc.  That's a perfectly fine perspective we ingrain into ourselves that keeps us rolling when we need to be but its difficult, (generally fine, definitely not always) for our own long term good...maybe.  But at some point you've succeeded in snowballing this to the amount you need.  And face it, at some point there's more money than time.  This doesn't mean someone who works until their deathbed has wasted their life, its not that extreme.  There are highs and lows, wins and losses, ups and downs in both work and personal life that each have some value.  But surely that ratio changes once the money is there. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on March 15, 2022, 10:02:54 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 11, 2022, 10:23:01 AM

Whoa boy, this is timely! DH's son still lives with us and he is pathologically shy. Had he been tested as a kid, he would most likely given an Aspberger's diagnosis at the very least.  Yes, I'm aware it's no longer recognized, but it was when he was a kid. He is almost 30 and hasn't the least desire to fly the coop. He works full time, but his position isn't permanent. We live in a stupid-high COLA. We're shopping for a condo for him, because that's the only way to get him out.

A one bedroom condo in an older, but decent complex is a "steal" if you can find one for $425k-ish. Sadly, it's about the same price as renting. We are torn as to the right move. It's easy to have him at home, but that's not what's best for him, in our opinion. He is pretty independent, except he's under our roof. He does his own laundry, car maintenance, pet care, and keeps all of our things that plug in humming along. He inherited his mom's car when she died, so I'm sure he will keep it running as long as he can. It's a 2004 Toyota, so it still has plenty of life in it. He has few bills, but he pays everything but car insurance and cell, because at the moment, we're mustachians and they're way cheaper that way. He has no debt. He also has no friends besides his work family. Happily, they love him. He is smart, conscientious and reliable.

We can afford it, and we will have to be the bank, because cash is king in this market. We plan to buy with cash, then get a mortgage before DH retires.

Did I say we can afford it? We're already "beyond" and we will be receiving a large inheritance from DH's mother's estate soon. It's money we will never need, so the kids will get it eventually anyway.

Since the topic came up here, I decided to ask all of you for your thoughts. We are not fans of Economic Outpatienting, but I have no experience with kids, particularly one so painfully shy. Related facts: DH is a widower. He has a daughter, and we plan to give an equivalent amount* to her.

*Our plan is to gift each of them $100k of their grandmother's money, so Bonus Kid will still be on the hook for $325k-ish, but we will be the bank.

Sorry if this is scattered, but we have an appointment to see a new listing in a few minutes. I'm happy to clarify, discuss, etc. later. And I'm old school and won't blubber like a baby if facepunches are in order. Your thoughts are appreciated.

I should add that DH's mom and her pal, AL Z. Heimer lived with us for six or seven years and Bonus Kid was a a contributing member of her care team. He was good with her and that gave us enough freedom to stay sane.

My younger son is similar. He lost his job about two years ago and does not seem to want to work for a formal company anymore. We asked him to move back to live with us. In this case, we prefer that he lives with us. I know there are many potential problems, but we will handle everything until he is ready to move on again. He is creating some computer games and selling them for some pocket money. Helping my son is the happiest thing that I am doing in my retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 16, 2022, 07:28:10 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on March 15, 2022, 10:02:54 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 11, 2022, 10:23:01 AM

Whoa boy, this is timely! DH's son still lives with us and he is pathologically shy. Had he been tested as a kid, he would most likely given an Aspberger's diagnosis at the very least.  Yes, I'm aware it's no longer recognized, but it was when he was a kid. He is almost 30 and hasn't the least desire to fly the coop. He works full time, but his position isn't permanent. We live in a stupid-high COLA. We're shopping for a condo for him, because that's the only way to get him out.

A one bedroom condo in an older, but decent complex is a "steal" if you can find one for $425k-ish. Sadly, it's about the same price as renting. We are torn as to the right move. It's easy to have him at home, but that's not what's best for him, in our opinion. He is pretty independent, except he's under our roof. He does his own laundry, car maintenance, pet care, and keeps all of our things that plug in humming along. He inherited his mom's car when she died, so I'm sure he will keep it running as long as he can. It's a 2004 Toyota, so it still has plenty of life in it. He has few bills, but he pays everything but car insurance and cell, because at the moment, we're mustachians and they're way cheaper that way. He has no debt. He also has no friends besides his work family. Happily, they love him. He is smart, conscientious and reliable.

We can afford it, and we will have to be the bank, because cash is king in this market. We plan to buy with cash, then get a mortgage before DH retires.

Did I say we can afford it? We're already "beyond" and we will be receiving a large inheritance from DH's mother's estate soon. It's money we will never need, so the kids will get it eventually anyway.

Since the topic came up here, I decided to ask all of you for your thoughts. We are not fans of Economic Outpatienting, but I have no experience with kids, particularly one so painfully shy. Related facts: DH is a widower. He has a daughter, and we plan to give an equivalent amount* to her.

*Our plan is to gift each of them $100k of their grandmother's money, so Bonus Kid will still be on the hook for $325k-ish, but we will be the bank.

Sorry if this is scattered, but we have an appointment to see a new listing in a few minutes. I'm happy to clarify, discuss, etc. later. And I'm old school and won't blubber like a baby if facepunches are in order. Your thoughts are appreciated.

I should add that DH's mom and her pal, AL Z. Heimer lived with us for six or seven years and Bonus Kid was a a contributing member of her care team. He was good with her and that gave us enough freedom to stay sane.

My younger son is similar. He lost his job about two years ago and does not seem to want to work for a formal company anymore. We asked him to move back to live with us. In this case, we prefer that he lives with us. I know there are many potential problems, but we will handle everything until he is ready to move on again. He is creating some computer games and selling them for some pocket money. Helping my son is the happiest thing that I am doing in my retirement.

Having BK continue to live with us would actually be easier for us, because there would be someone here to mind the house when we were traveling. It's about figuring out a way to get him up and out, living a fully independent adult life. It's a big world out there and I want him to experience it. He's a good guy and worth the effort, IMO.

I have more to say on this topic, but I think I'll move the convo to my journal. If I wrote more about his job, it would be super easy to identify him and I'm not going to risk that. The reason I posted here is because you guys understand money isn't the crucial issue here. We can easily afford it - we won't be liquidating anything to pay for this place* - and advice like "find something cheaper" or "move to a lower cost area" just don't apply in this case.

Your responses have been very helpful and I greatly appreciate your feedback.

*We are definitely not just buying it and giving it to BK. We're paying cash so that our offer gets accepted. We will be getting a mortgage asap and he will be on it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on March 16, 2022, 08:00:41 AM

Quote from: tennisray on March 13, 2022, 05:00:38 PM

DW and I were just about into “beyond” territory. She FIRE’d in December. In my mind, I realize, with our low expenses, we will never be able to spend this $ in our lifetime. However, I find myself unhappy/anxious about the combo market losses/inflation. I think we were so good at accumulating due to looking at saving as a “game”. We figured how to hack the game and enjoyed watching our nest egg grow. Now I feel (occasionally) that we are “losing”. I’m working on understanding that we won the game already so we don’t need to play anymore.  Just ranting a bit. I’m thinking others have written about the transition from accumulation to spending phase and how it may take some time to get used to.  I’m sure in a few years when our egg grows I’ll laugh at myself for ever being worried.

I think like many other things in life, it comes down to values. What are your values? (and they can change at different points of your life so it's good to reevaluate)
Do you value watching money accumulate? Is there some future purpose for it?
Or maybe you keep working because you value what you are contributing through your career?
Or maybe you really value success and having a lot of money and a big job title defines success for you at this point in your life.

But maybe what you really value is spending time with friends and family. Or raising children or having time to have new adventures. If that's the case then when you can use models to predict a reasonable level of safety and success of your plan then it's time to pull the plug and don't look back.
As some wise folks on this forum told me when I was going through the process of pulling the trigger- you'll figure it out if something changes, you were smart enough to get this far.....

If you are living according to your values you're not "losing", no matter what the investment portfolio shows are losses.
Like ExFlyboy said it's a process.

At $2M-$4M net worth we are wealthier than 95% of the population. Surely that's enough, we've won the game and we can figure out how to enjoy it and not run out. I mean really, it's kind of ridiculous to think otherwise. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: CANStache on March 16, 2022, 02:15:32 PM

^^^ Thanks BeanCounter, that's a great post.

It's really easy to value dollars.  It's truly difficult to value so many of the other things you mentioned in your post.  Finding that balance and ensuring you're being true to yourself is a "first world problem" for everyone in this thread.  So many people don't get to even consider it, but those who have the luxury to do so should make sure they don't waste their time chasing those things they can measure, instead of the things that really matter to them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 16, 2022, 02:30:03 PM

Yes VERY easy to measure dollars. In fact its the one datapoint that most of the Western World has been reduced to!

I mean you see it on people faces when you tell them what "you do". They automatically make an assessment of how much money you make and put you into their mental pecking order. Sadly for most of us OUR position in other peoples pecking order matters to us.

Thats the sad thing to me.. I mean who gives a rats ass what other peoples impressions of how much money I make?.. But it does matter.

I actually get a kick out of peoples reaction when I tell them I am a leech on society (I still look too young to retire).. My Wife hates it when I do that. It either brings a look of confusion or disgust.. its great..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 16, 2022, 05:48:16 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 16, 2022, 02:30:03 PM

Yes VERY easy to measure dollars. In fact its the one datapoint that most of the Western World has been reduced to!

I mean you see it on people faces when you tell them what "you do". They automatically make an assessment of how much money you make and put you into their mental pecking order. Sadly for most of us OUR position in other peoples pecking order matters to us.

Thats the sad thing to me.. I mean who gives a rats ass what other peoples impressions of how much money I make?.. But it does matter.

I actually get a kick out of peoples reaction when I tell them I am a leech on society (I still look too young to retire).. My Wife hates it when I do that. It either brings a look of confusion or disgust.. its great..:)

I think there has been a slight change after this Covid thing.  They began calling some of us "essential personal."  Some people said, "Oh yeh."

As far as you being a leech on society, not really.  Just think about some of these Wall Street people that through their actions can close industries and ruin the finances and dreams of entire towns.  Those guys are the real leeches. 

I do realize that I am talking to money people here and many of you have different perspectives.  Well, you are just wrong.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 16, 2022, 07:11:01 PM

Yup and people in the $100M+ club who inherited their wealth who pay no taxes at all using the "Buy-borrow-Die" system.

In other words the working stiffs pay their taxes for them!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on March 17, 2022, 11:19:32 AM

I look back on my own behavior over the last few weeks and am starting to feel that it's going to take a lot for me to stop working.  I'll let you know what I've done and what I think about it. 

So I have been looking online and reading reviews and videos and went to drive a car.  My thoughts are that I want something fun.  It (sorta) must be manual.  I'd prefer 'Murican although it doesn't have to be.  So I found and went to test drive a 22 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing.  This particular one had the auto as the dealer sold their only manual.  It was fun to drive, had more power than most anything I've owned, handled really well and as Matt Farah said in his review, was better than the current BMW M3.  Wow!  The downside?  The Caddy dealer was adding $30k to the MSRP!  I have seen one other dealer within 50 miles adding $10k.  But a manual is really hard to find although I could travel a few hundred miles although I have no idea what those dealers would charge.  We're talking just this side of $100k.  Other cars considered: Porsche 718 Cayman GT4, Subaru BRZ (which they stopped orders of, probably because they can't get parts).  Lotus Emira.  Anyways, there's my big dollar passion.

Now my observations.  The other day, I was out doing errands in my manual Crosstrek that's really dirty.  I was thinking of getting it washed which is ten bucks.  After returning bottles and getting some groceries, I decided to not spend those ten dollars and just wait.

I'm also driving the Crosstrek all the time rather than splitting it between that and my Jeep, which gets half the MPG.  With gas prices, I'm saving.  I probably drive 30 miles a week these days.  And of course, when I get gas, I use an app to get money back and then use another app, Fletch that I can take a pic of any receipt.

Both DW and I are still working.  Both from home.  She's got a hard job.  Mine is cake at this point.  Older son turns 26 in July, so he'll have to go on his company's insurance, which will transfer some of the medical cost from us to him.  If we both quit our jobs, I could simply go on medicare (just turned 65).  DW and younger son could do ACA or if she refused to quit, go on her insurance at work.  We have over 50 times spending even with the recent drawdown of the market, which for me went down maybe $150k. 

So Lucy, here's my nickel.  Give my your diagnosis.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 01:41:06 PM

Am I ready to fire?

I don't feel like making a case study, because I feel like this is a bit of a silly question, so bear with me. I'm ridiculously financially conservative, and have continued to move my own goal posts for FIRE. But, long story very short, I fell into a career in tech 25 years ago as part of a college internship. I had zero desire to work in tech, but one role led to another role, which led to another, and so on, all of which were really well paid. I'm now to the point where I'm paid beyond anything I could have ever imagined. And now, suddenly I'm 46 & hoping I've put in enough time in tech to stop & doing something else, but have really struggled to pull the trigger & FIRE, given how much I make. Something else might mean paid work in the future, or it may never mean that again. I want enough money to be comfortable that I never have to work again.

I'm about to start internationally traveling again (work), after a 2 year hiatus due to COVID. The international work was my line in the sand for FIREing, so I am feeling ready. Plan would be to FIRE in January of 2023 (there are some compensation advantages to this timing.)

Married, husband works in tech as well. Two kids, 15 & 16.

Retirement accounts: $2.3M
Paid for house: worth $4.5-$5M
Other stock/savings (expected by EOY, given compensation timeline at my work): $750k
Debt: None
Husband's gross income: $500k (varies based on company stock price, which is a sizable portion of his comp)
Generous yearly budget: $100k (this is for the next few years, while the kids are at home)
College savings: $150k (eldest will likely be going to a community college & then likely a UC school. Youngest will most likely start at a UC school). Given current pricing, this should be enough for everyone, and we will cash flow whatever isn't covered via college savings.

Husband has no desire to retire/FIRE. We can all move to his work health care plan, which we are familiar with (I am at the same company). His compensation more than covers our current expenses. We have plenty saved for retirement. Why is it so scary?

Am I missing anything? Any words of wisdom or things I should be thinking about for the next few months? I'm being ridiculous & should just pull the trigger, right?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 17, 2022, 01:48:50 PM

A net worth of over $7M.. Yeah I think you can make it..:)

The only thing I would say is that house presumably has some eye-watering RE taxes with it.. So you might consider moving to a <$1M house and putting the cash in after tax savings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 01:55:13 PM

@Exflyboy - we are committed to not moving until the kids are out of the house. Given our current location preferences, I'm not sure we will go as low as that, but yes, we've discussed moving & there's some appeal there. The property taxes are a large part of the budget, but we budgeted assuming we would stay here, to give us flexibility. I think fire risk will drive us out ahead of the cost of living, but who knows.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: CoffeeR on March 17, 2022, 02:02:26 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 01:41:06 PM

Am I ready to fire?
...
Am I missing anything? Any words of wisdom or things I should be thinking about for the next few months? I'm being ridiculous & should just pull the trigger, right?

I have heard financial planners report that the sense you might-not-have-enough is present for people who have a net worth of multiple tens of millions. At some point it does not matter how much you have, the sense it might not be enough can be there. The issue in these cases is not one of money, but one of psychology (I'm not an expert, not my field). The question you need to ask, how can you overcome whatever it is that is causing you to worry and question the next step. I realize this is somewhat of a non-answer.

So if this helps you answer the question on if can you retire and hearing this from a bunch of internet strangers will help, then yes.. you have enough, you can pull the trigger, you can FIRE. The real question, what do you need to make this answer resonate within you?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 02:08:15 PM

Good question, @CoffeeR . I'll add a couple of thoughts. The big giant paychecks on my side are recent. I've always been well compensated, but received a big promotion a few years ago, and our company stock has increased drastically. As a result, what was a much easier decision has become more challenging for me. I have been saying I was ready to quit for years. The increase in my compensation has made it so much harder to actually pull the trigger. Just as my company has hoped, I'm sure.

COVID also screwed up my "what will I do when I'm not working" plans, and the life I was previously envisioning (traveling, fitness classes, social stuff with friends, volunteering) has changed quite a bit, given restrictions. I think that's heading back to re-opening, but it did cause me to wonder if I would enjoy FIRE without some of my previous plans.

I took a sabbatical a few years back (pre-COVID times) & loved it, and didn't really want to go back to work.

And at the end of the day, it's guilt. Guilt that I make so much, and can afford to do so much for my family (extended, immediate) & charities by continuing to work. I know no one in my family would expect me to work in a job I didn't enjoy, just so I could treat them to a vacation, so that's all in my own head.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 17, 2022, 05:12:12 PM

@MaybeBabyMustache Not sure about your income, but mine took a nice jump this year in the form of record high bonus as well as high 'long term incentives' as long as I stick around till next year.  I don't expect inflation to subside anytime soon and the labor market is tight - insanely tight in certain places - so the company is revving up initiatives to maintain company morale.  I'm thinking that this year will be a really good time to be employed...

Sure, there are all sorts of active hedges against inflation other than employment (like working harder at saving money), but as long as you're not miserable, staying employed might be more fun and less stressful hedge than relying fully on land-lording and investments...  just my 2 cents. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 05:42:29 PM

@EscapeVelocity2020 - my comp is high, but a larger portion is due to a very big increase in my company stock. No plans to landlord - we don't own any rental properties, and don't need to draw down our investments. We'll be living on my husband's salary.

I think the larger point is fair, I expect my comp to continue to rise, particularly this year with the desire for the company to retain high level talent. I guess the question is "when do you ever quit"? I'm making a lot (last year was $850k, I think). I expect this year to be similar, but some stock market variability. I already feel like I can't leave because the money is so good, so I'm not sure that's the right yardstick for decision making.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 17, 2022, 05:42:30 PM

Good to hear from you, @maybebabymustache!

While I wasn’t in the same league as you the talk of being hard to walk away from high compensation résinâtes. Especially with stock vesting each month it got granular “if I stick it out for three more weeks that means $xx!”.

I walked away from unvested golden handcuffs to take a job at your company. I walked away from a six-figure amount of unvested stock when I quit for good, that incidentally gave my mother heart palpitations. Hah. In the end I had convinced myself through a weekend with cFIREsim that we were good and I didn’t like my job, so it felt ok walking away. My husband worked another 1.5 years and we knew that was the plan, so that kept me feeling like the plan was solid.

You have to believe it for yourself but even the Bogleheads people would give you the green light. With your expenses you would still be living g comfortably and saving/donating generously with just your husband’s income.

What gives you pause? So you have any fully formed concerns or just vague discomfort?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 05:54:48 PM

Hi, @ysette9 ! I think it's guilt more than anything else. It's hard to leave the salary, when I know I could do a lot with the money. It's sort of the point that EscapeVelocity made - it's a lot of money, why walk away now? :-) But, I also don't want to wake up & know I could have done a bunch of other things with my life. I feel like I'm really pretty close to the final decision.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ysette9 on March 17, 2022, 06:01:05 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 05:54:48 PM

Hi, @ysette9 ! I think it's guilt more than anything else. It's hard to leave the salary, when I know I could do a lot with the money. It's sort of the point that EscapeVelocity made - it's a lot of money, why walk away now? :-) But, I also don't want to wake up & know I could have done a bunch of other things with my life. I feel like I'm really pretty close to the final decision.

It is a lot of money. But it will always be a lot of money.

I remember reading the Quit Series by Dr Doom (old blog, living a FI) about working through his difficulty quitting with a therapist. He had giving back as one of this bullet pints and his therapist told him to just ignore that for now. Maybe you can find that old blog post and get the details that I don’t remember. The message I got was not to ignore giving entirely,  it don’t let that guilt be a driver of your life decisions. Ultimately you answer to yourself first.

And who is to say you don’t have other ways to give to the world in you that aren’t monetary? Someone I admire a lot living in your city is doing a lot now with arts and no profits now that she doesn’t have to work for a living. It is really cool to see her explore over the past few years as she works through how to live a meaningful life without work being a central component.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 17, 2022, 06:51:22 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 05:42:29 PM

@EscapeVelocity2020 - my comp is high, but a larger portion is due to a very big increase in my company stock. No plans to landlord - we don't own any rental properties, and don't need to draw down our investments. We'll be living on my husband's salary.

I think the larger point is fair, I expect my comp to continue to rise, particularly this year with the desire for the company to retain high level talent. I guess the question is "when do you ever quit"? I'm making a lot (last year was $850k, I think). I expect this year to be similar, but some stock market variability. I already feel like I can't leave because the money is so good, so I'm not sure that's the right yardstick for decision making.

OK, I'll be the stick in the mud who says don;t retire quite yet.... Its all for one reason.  combined you and your husband make like $1.4M year, but yet your LNW is like $3M?  So maybe work a couple years, which alone will like double your nut, which is pretty good for working a couple years?

I fully admit there is no need.  esp.  if you are correct in saying your spouse WANTS to continue working for years.  And if you're willing to sell that $5M home its not like thats even important.  BUt being able to double your nest egg in a couple years is not a lot of effort for such a big difference (unless its killing you).  Most of us arent coming close to adding that much with so little work.

BUt yes, I also agree this could be a slippery slope.  I read on one thread where someone gave a poster a hard time if they didn't work an extra year to then donate the hundreds of thousands of $ they made to charity, but that's an argument that would never let that person ever retire ever....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 17, 2022, 07:42:33 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 05:42:29 PM

@EscapeVelocity2020 - my comp is high, but a larger portion is due to a very big increase in my company stock. No plans to landlord - we don't own any rental properties, and don't need to draw down our investments. We'll be living on my husband's salary.

I think the larger point is fair, I expect my comp to continue to rise, particularly this year with the desire for the company to retain high level talent. I guess the question is "when do you ever quit"? I'm making a lot (last year was $850k, I think). I expect this year to be similar, but some stock market variability. I already feel like I can't leave because the money is so good, so I'm not sure that's the right yardstick for decision making.

IMHO, the actual numbers don't matter (although 850k does turn a few heads), it's all relative.  Are things getting better or worse?  For me, my quality of life has taken a few ups and downs since hitting FI.  This will be anecdotal, but things were getting worse for us and we were at lean FI, so I applied for an expat assignment fully intending to ER anyway.  The two years overseas with my DW 'retired' with the kids was really nice and we hit a more comfortable FI so I kept working.  Then things started to suck again and we were fat FI, but I had another opportunity to do 'one more' expat assignment (which didn't turn out to be the last one, of course).  We lived in Dubai and had a spectacular 2 years.  I would've missed that opportunity had I just figured I 'had to' ER at fat FI.  Then after that high point, things have calmed back down to a nice cruising altitude but now the kids don't necessarily need 2 parents at home and I enjoy my work.  I also had one last expat assignment in Paris for a year, so that was fun...

So all I'm trying to say is, it's not just about the money.  There are opportunities you have when you are working, or in the workforce and FI, and times like now are a good time to be 46 and not limiting yourself with 'well I have plenty of money so I guess I'll just retire and figure it out'.  Nothing wrong with that if it feels right, you are FI, but so are lots of folks these days with the crazy high real estate prices, crypto, and markets.  Maybe chill out for a year and, if nothing changes and it still feels right, then go for it!

I found, several times, that OMY gave me opportunities that I'm really glad I didn't miss!  No regrets, even though I get the 'slippery slope' worry of how easily OMY becomes complacency for some people too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 17, 2022, 08:44:58 PM

Just a thought, but couldn't you just go live somewhere for a year and not bother with a job?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 09:52:56 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 17, 2022, 08:44:58 PM

Just a thought, but couldn't you just go live somewhere for a year and not bother with a job?

We have two kids in high school, and my husband's job requires him to be nearby 2-3 days/week, so not currently an option.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 09:56:56 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 17, 2022, 06:51:22 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 05:42:29 PM

@EscapeVelocity2020 - my comp is high, but a larger portion is due to a very big increase in my company stock. No plans to landlord - we don't own any rental properties, and don't need to draw down our investments. We'll be living on my husband's salary.

I think the larger point is fair, I expect my comp to continue to rise, particularly this year with the desire for the company to retain high level talent. I guess the question is "when do you ever quit"? I'm making a lot (last year was $850k, I think). I expect this year to be similar, but some stock market variability. I already feel like I can't leave because the money is so good, so I'm not sure that's the right yardstick for decision making.

OK, I'll be the stick in the mud who says don;t retire quite yet.... Its all for one reason.  combined you and your husband make like $1.4M year, but yet your LNW is like $3M?  So maybe work a couple years, which alone will like double your nut, which is pretty good for working a couple years?

I fully admit there is no need.  esp.  if you are correct in saying your spouse WANTS to continue working for years.  And if you're willing to sell that $5M home its not like thats even important.  BUt being able to double your nest egg in a couple years is not a lot of effort for such a big difference (unless its killing you).  Most of us arent coming close to adding that much with so little work.

BUt yes, I also agree this could be a slippery slope.  I read on one thread where someone gave a poster a hard time if they didn't work an extra year to then donate the hundreds of thousands of $ they made to charity, but that's an argument that would never let that person ever retire ever....

We paid off our house, and the big money is reasonably new (3-4 years). We haven't been making this kind of money all along - my salary has more than doubled in the last 5 years, due to stock, and his is a similar story.

It's not killing me, which is part of the rub. It's just not something I enjoy doing. I really intensely dislike the international travel & the stress. In a normal year, the travel is 8 weeks/year, and I don't do jet lag well (autoimmune disease), so I spend another close to 8 weeks recovering from the jet lag. It's really unpleasant & interferes with other things I'd rather do.

My spouse has zero desire to quit working. Meanwhile, I've been trying to quit for years, so I could pursue something that was more enjoyable (unpaid, paid, part time, taking long breaks, whatever).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 10:01:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 17, 2022, 07:42:33 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 05:42:29 PM

@EscapeVelocity2020 - my comp is high, but a larger portion is due to a very big increase in my company stock. No plans to landlord - we don't own any rental properties, and don't need to draw down our investments. We'll be living on my husband's salary.

I think the larger point is fair, I expect my comp to continue to rise, particularly this year with the desire for the company to retain high level talent. I guess the question is "when do you ever quit"? I'm making a lot (last year was $850k, I think). I expect this year to be similar, but some stock market variability. I already feel like I can't leave because the money is so good, so I'm not sure that's the right yardstick for decision making.

IMHO, the actual numbers don't matter (although 850k does turn a few heads), it's all relative.  Are things getting better or worse?  For me, my quality of life has taken a few ups and downs since hitting FI.  This will be anecdotal, but things were getting worse for us and we were at lean FI, so I applied for an expat assignment fully intending to ER anyway.  The two years overseas with my DW 'retired' with the kids was really nice and we hit a more comfortable FI so I kept working.  Then things started to suck again and we were fat FI, but I had another opportunity to do 'one more' expat assignment (which didn't turn out to be the last one, of course).  We lived in Dubai and had a spectacular 2 years.  I would've missed that opportunity had I just figured I 'had to' ER at fat FI.  Then after that high point, things have calmed back down to a nice cruising altitude but now the kids don't necessarily need 2 parents at home and I enjoy my work.  I also had one last expat assignment in Paris for a year, so that was fun...

So all I'm trying to say is, it's not just about the money.  There are opportunities you have when you are working, or in the workforce and FI, and times like now are a good time to be 46 and not limiting yourself with 'well I have plenty of money so I guess I'll just retire and figure it out'.  Nothing wrong with that if it feels right, you are FI, but so are lots of folks these days with the crazy high real estate prices, crypto, and markets.  Maybe chill out for a year and, if nothing changes and it still feels right, then go for it!

I found, several times, that OMY gave me opportunities that I'm really glad I didn't miss!  No regrets, even though I get the 'slippery slope' worry of how easily OMY becomes complacency for some people too.

I've been in tech 25 years longer than I desired/wanted, so I wouldn't say it's getting particularly worse, but I'm certainly not enjoying it. I feel reasonably confident there are a bunch of other things out there that I could be doing that I would enjoy more, be it part time, volunteering, taking months to just enjoy life, write a book, whatever. The job comes with plenty of stress, and it's unpredictable. It also tends to be the busiest at really inopportune times (weekends, holidays, during times of crisis, etc). It's not always hard, but it's also a lot of travel, which I hate. Combined with the jet lag, that's definitely the least favorite part of my job. Oh, and managing teams in all of the time zones, which means all kinds of weird hours & late/early calls.

I'm not (I don't think) at a place of telling myself, "hey, you have enough money to quit, may as well FIRE", but rather finally getting over my ridiculous financial goal posts to give myself the freedom to try something more enjoyable.

But, this entire discussion is, of course, why I have the dilemma. :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 17, 2022, 10:22:44 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 09:52:56 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 17, 2022, 08:44:58 PM

Just a thought, but couldn't you just go live somewhere for a year and not bother with a job?

We have two kids in high school, and my husband's job requires him to be nearby 2-3 days/week, so not currently an option.

Sorry, wasn't clear.  That comment was meant for @EscapeVelocity2020 .

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 18, 2022, 12:30:31 AM

Well, I took a break from our vacation to do our taxes today. Using TurboTax it took about 5 hours to enter everything, but when all was said and done, we paid 5 dollars more to the Feds than we got from the state.  Nice to have it line up so nicely.  Each year our taxes get a little more complicated, but TurboTax seems to handle it fine and costs about a quarter the cost of an accountant. We’ll see how things look in 2022… I have some changes brewing.

I’ve been on the fence about leaving my job for several years. It’s been up and down for me for a while, but it’s now mostly down. FIRE is an option, but I like the challenges of work and the type of people I get to work with. The company has grown big enough that the internal politics and procedures take more effort than the actual work. It’s the work that is rewarding, not the bureaucratic games. A couple of months ago, a longtime business associate offered me a position somewhat out of the blue. My initial gut feeling was ‘Yes!’ And I continue to feel that way. Now it’s time to work out final details. It will be similar to potentially more money than now, a little more focused work but also an ownership position and leading the business. So, 2022 taxes will have another level of added complication. Should be interesting.

It’s funny thinking about FIRE vs new job. If you’d told me 10 years ago that we’d by sitting on a $3.2M net worth and I’d be thinking of a new job rather than just hanging it up, I would have said you’re crazy, but I’m excited to take on something different, yet similar, and with people I’ve known for a long time. It could be really fun. Or maybe it will suck and I really will FIRE. I’ll keep you all posted.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 18, 2022, 06:43:03 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 01:41:06 PM

Husband has no desire to retire/FIRE. We can all move to his work health care plan, which we are familiar with (I am at the same company). His compensation more than covers our current expenses. We have plenty saved for retirement. Why is it so scary?

Am I missing anything? Any words of wisdom or things I should be thinking about for the next few months? I'm being ridiculous & should just pull the trigger, right?

Not quite at your income level but our household AGI did exceed $600k in 2020. I had had enough and retired although my wife is still working (and earning a fabulous amount). Our invested net worth is about $6M despite the current downturn.

I will be turning 60 soon. My dad died of complications from Alzheimers at age 85 - the last three years of his life were hell for him and all of us. My mom recently unexpectedly passed away from a heart attack at age 83. I feel the passage of time - I don't want to waste another minute of my life doing some bullshit job.

In the words of Paul Simon :-)

Quote

"The problem is all inside your head"
She said to me
"The answer is easy if you
Take it logically
I'd like to help you in your struggle
To be free
There must be fifty ways
To leave your lover job"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 18, 2022, 08:40:43 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 10:01:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 17, 2022, 07:42:33 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 05:42:29 PM

@EscapeVelocity2020 - my comp is high, but a larger portion is due to a very big increase in my company stock. No plans to landlord - we don't own any rental properties, and don't need to draw down our investments. We'll be living on my husband's salary.

I think the larger point is fair, I expect my comp to continue to rise, particularly this year with the desire for the company to retain high level talent. I guess the question is "when do you ever quit"? I'm making a lot (last year was $850k, I think). I expect this year to be similar, but some stock market variability. I already feel like I can't leave because the money is so good, so I'm not sure that's the right yardstick for decision making.

IMHO, the actual numbers don't matter (although 850k does turn a few heads), it's all relative.  Are things getting better or worse?  For me, my quality of life has taken a few ups and downs since hitting FI.  This will be anecdotal, but things were getting worse for us and we were at lean FI, so I applied for an expat assignment fully intending to ER anyway.  The two years overseas with my DW 'retired' with the kids was really nice and we hit a more comfortable FI so I kept working.  Then things started to suck again and we were fat FI, but I had another opportunity to do 'one more' expat assignment (which didn't turn out to be the last one, of course).  We lived in Dubai and had a spectacular 2 years.  I would've missed that opportunity had I just figured I 'had to' ER at fat FI.  Then after that high point, things have calmed back down to a nice cruising altitude but now the kids don't necessarily need 2 parents at home and I enjoy my work.  I also had one last expat assignment in Paris for a year, so that was fun...

So all I'm trying to say is, it's not just about the money.  There are opportunities you have when you are working, or in the workforce and FI, and times like now are a good time to be 46 and not limiting yourself with 'well I have plenty of money so I guess I'll just retire and figure it out'.  Nothing wrong with that if it feels right, you are FI, but so are lots of folks these days with the crazy high real estate prices, crypto, and markets.  Maybe chill out for a year and, if nothing changes and it still feels right, then go for it!

I found, several times, that OMY gave me opportunities that I'm really glad I didn't miss!  No regrets, even though I get the 'slippery slope' worry of how easily OMY becomes complacency for some people too.

I've been in tech 25 years longer than I desired/wanted, so I wouldn't say it's getting particularly worse, but I'm certainly not enjoying it. I feel reasonably confident there are a bunch of other things out there that I could be doing that I would enjoy more, be it part time, volunteering, taking months to just enjoy life, write a book, whatever. The job comes with plenty of stress, and it's unpredictable. It also tends to be the busiest at really inopportune times (weekends, holidays, during times of crisis, etc). It's not always hard, but it's also a lot of travel, which I hate. Combined with the jet lag, that's definitely the least favorite part of my job. Oh, and managing teams in all of the time zones, which means all kinds of weird hours & late/early calls.

I'm not (I don't think) at a place of telling myself, "hey, you have enough money to quit, may as well FIRE", but rather finally getting over my ridiculous financial goal posts to give myself the freedom to try something more enjoyable.

But, this entire discussion is, of course, why I have the dilemma. :-)

We all have our unique circumstances, that's for sure.  My decision to keep working is easy because I enjoy working with my colleagues and enjoy the challenge.  Each day is different, and on top of that, work takes care of a lot of nuisances that I prefer not to deal with - figuring out health care, doing my taxes for me, and giving me cash flow to try new things without having to dip in to the stache.  At some point I'll hang it up, but just knowing that I can gives me the feeling of liberation I need, while also making me feel wanted and appreciated. 

Your case is more ambivalent and you've said that you 'feel guilty' quitting.  Well, that's not a very good reason to keep working!  Maybe you need to 'consciously uncouple' from the job and see what happens, both on your end and theirs.  You shouldn't have to travel and deal with high stress if you're FI and these things are causing autoimmune issues.  Health is paramount, both physical and mental, and it sounds like the best path to your best health is giving your employer a clear message that you are putting yourself first.  In my case, my company would bend over backwards to keep me on while also trying to satisfy my personal needs.  Folks were retiring during Covid and were given all sorts of bespoke packages to keep them on as long as possible.  One guy was working from his boat in Australia LOL!  Another guy was in the wilderness in Oregon for weeks at a time.  I'm definitely not going to be bashful about trying to tailor my exit...  Like you said, you've put in 25 more years than you wanted to, don't worry about 'asking for too much' or feeling guilted in to giving them more against your will!

Folks like us are lucky to have these first world problems, that's for sure. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 18, 2022, 09:40:45 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 17, 2022, 09:56:56 PM

My spouse has zero desire to quit working.

That clinches it for me then, pull the trigger and get out, even if spouse's desires do change by then you'll have that nest egg at least doubled with everyone doing what they want to do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 18, 2022, 10:38:05 AM

@2sk22 - Loved the Paul Simon thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 18, 2022, 06:30:35 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 18, 2022, 10:38:05 AM

@2sk22 - Loved the Paul Simon thing.

Man, I love everything Paul Simon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 18, 2022, 06:55:30 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 18, 2022, 06:30:35 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 18, 2022, 10:38:05 AM

@2sk22 - Loved the Paul Simon thing.

Man, I love everything Paul Simon.

Me and Julio, Kodachrome, Homeless… they make my spine tingle.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 18, 2022, 07:25:13 PM

A friend was telling us today about how she just switched jobs. She was describing the old job, and I felt like it was describing my frustrations to a T:

• top heavy org chart
• too much work
• can’t get approval to hire more people who do actual work
• bureaucracy that gets in the way of actual work
• endless stress with no light at the need of the tunnel
• leading a team with the same frustrations and having no way to relieve them

Even the solution offered to her was similar - more money, promotion, and even more stress. Something breaks in our companies when they get so big that the people at the top aren’t attached to the actual work anymore. Everything turns into a dollars and cents problem or a people problem.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 18, 2022, 09:58:59 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on March 18, 2022, 06:55:30 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 18, 2022, 06:30:35 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 18, 2022, 10:38:05 AM

@2sk22 - Loved the Paul Simon thing.

Man, I love everything Paul Simon.

Me and Julio, Kodachrome, Homeless… they make my spine tingle.

Outstanding road trip music. And I love saying "mama pajama".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 19, 2022, 07:10:33 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on March 18, 2022, 07:25:13 PM

A friend was telling us today about how she just switched jobs. She was describing the old job, and I felt like it was describing my frustrations to a T:

• top heavy org chart
• too much work
• can’t get approval to hire more people who do actual work
• bureaucracy that gets in the way of actual work
• endless stress with no light at the need of the tunnel
• leading a team with the same frustrations and having no way to relieve them

Even the solution offered to her was similar - more money, promotion, and even more stress. Something breaks in our companies when they get so big that the people at the top aren’t attached to the actual work anymore. Everything turns into a dollars and cents problem or a people problem.

This all sounds very familiar to me. My wife has worked her way up the hierarchy in her company and has probably reached her final level. She is approximately mid level in the executive ranks and she feels that there is very little point in trying to go any higher mostly for the reasons that you mentioned. Currently, her workload is significant but not taxing. Also, she is currently very well paid but could make even more if she switched to another company - but that would also involve a lot more work. Her current thought is to keep working as long as the money keeps rolling in and the workload is not too much. Whenever she feels stressed, she asks me for a readout of our finances. She says that that calms her down immediately :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on March 19, 2022, 08:39:54 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 19, 2022, 07:10:33 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on March 18, 2022, 07:25:13 PM

A friend was telling us today about how she just switched jobs. She was describing the old job, and I felt like it was describing my frustrations to a T:

• top heavy org chart
• too much work
• can’t get approval to hire more people who do actual work
• bureaucracy that gets in the way of actual work
• endless stress with no light at the need of the tunnel
• leading a team with the same frustrations and having no way to relieve them

Even the solution offered to her was similar - more money, promotion, and even more stress. Something breaks in our companies when they get so big that the people at the top aren’t attached to the actual work anymore. Everything turns into a dollars and cents problem or a people problem.

This all sounds very familiar to me. My wife has worked her way up the hierarchy in her company and has probably reached her final level. She is approximately mid level in the executive ranks and she feels that there is very little point in trying to go any higher mostly for the reasons that you mentioned. Currently, her workload is significant but not taxing. Also, she is currently very well paid but could make even more if she switched to another company - but that would also involve a lot more work. Her current thought is to keep working as long as the money keeps rolling in and the workload is not too much. Whenever she feels stressed, she asks me for a readout of our finances. She says that that calms her down immediately :-)

I FIRED in August of 2020. In May of 2021 my former employer was in a pinch and called me to do some contract work, so I've been working 15 hours or so a month for them. It was more last fall when I had some bigger projects going on.
The biggest thing I've noticed since I've been back is that this large employer is literally meeting its people to death. I really don't see how anyone can get any meaningful work done because they are on Zoom 6+ hours of the work day. The amount of meetings that we had were always a problem but it seems to have become worse since they went remote during COVID. It seems like 30% of the meeting invites are so that you are "in the loop" on a topic, 30% of the meetings are because "we might need your expertise for this topic", 20% are to give folks the opportunity to crow about things they have done or how important their job is, and 20% are 1:1s with boss, staff, or meetings about projects your actually working on.
I don't know how any business can function like this, or any employee (you have to do actual work on your free time so you can be available for 100 meetings a day). But I don't know how they can change it.
It's certainly been interesting watching this from "the outside". At least it has confirmed for me that quitting was the right decision. I don't care how much they pay me, I'm not going to spend my life on Zoom.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on March 22, 2022, 07:30:52 AM

Just dropping in today to say that going back to work on a part time contract for my former employer was the WORST decision I’ve ever made. 8 more weeks. I want to find a reason to end it early. DH says to stick it out, end on a high note (again) and buy myself something nice as a reward.

Heed this warning guys. When your old employer comes back asking for just a little temporary help, run. Run far fast.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 22, 2022, 08:17:41 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on March 22, 2022, 07:30:52 AM

Just dropping in today to say that going back to work on a part time contract for my former employer was the WORST decision I’ve ever made. 8 more weeks. I want to find a reason to end it early. DH says to stick it out, end on a high note (again) and buy myself something nice as a reward.

Heed this warning guys. When your old employer comes back asking for just a little temporary help, run. Run far fast.

Appreciate this, @BeanCounter . Was the role not what you expected, or more that you weren't used to/ready to go back to the office & it no longer matched what you were willing to trade off for money?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on March 22, 2022, 09:28:07 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 22, 2022, 08:17:41 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on March 22, 2022, 07:30:52 AM

Just dropping in today to say that going back to work on a part time contract for my former employer was the WORST decision I’ve ever made. 8 more weeks. I want to find a reason to end it early. DH says to stick it out, end on a high note (again) and buy myself something nice as a reward.

Heed this warning guys. When your old employer comes back asking for just a little temporary help, run. Run far fast.

Appreciate this, @BeanCounter . Was the role not what you expected, or more that you weren't used to/ready to go back to the office & it no longer matched what you were willing to trade off for money?

@MaybeBabyMustache
I think it's more that I am still suffering from complete burnout from that position/employer. I was listening to the podcast "The Happiness Lab" (highly recommend) with Dr. Laurie Santos of Yale. They did an episode on burnout (Feb 21, 2022) and that was me before I FIRED. I think being back just brings back a lot of those feelings.
Some of it is constant stupid meetings (for which I'm being paid $150 an hour but I'd rather be doing anything else and not getting paid)
And creating stupid reports that people think they want or need and then they either are never used or are used for just navel gazing/recreational analytics (as I call it) Sometimes those reports drive just tons of stupid questions but then no real action.
And then there is the endless politics and bureaucracy of large companies.

I have two other clients that I've picked up that are small businesses (one at about $1M in net income and the other is a start up) and I find that work to be easier, more efficient and much more enjoyable because the business owners truly appreciate it. It's slightly less per hour and less hours per month but so much more enjoyable.
Also on two boards which is unpaid, but really enjoyable work.

I guess my point is just that there is a reason why when we finally leave we leave. And I don't think it's because we just don't want to work. I think for most people it really is the job. Or it's that you have something else you really want to do with your time. Or some combination of the two. Which means no matter what, when you leave, you should just leave. Be done. Don't go back. It's not better and you don't need the money. (or you can find money somewhere else)

ok. end rant.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on March 22, 2022, 09:43:11 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on March 22, 2022, 09:28:07 AM

I guess my point is just that there is a reason why when we finally leave we leave. And I don't think it's because we just don't want to work. I think for most people it really is the job. Or it's that you have something else you really want to do with your time. Or some combination of the two. Which means no matter what, when you leave, you should just leave. Be done. Don't go back. It's not better and you don't need the money. (or you can find money somewhere else)

ok. end rant.

Timely reminder, so thank you.

I've been FIREd about six years now and while I don't regret it and don't think I quit too early and I have enough money, I am starting to get a little bit of an itch for what I would call a third act (first act engineering, second act management).  What I know is that most people who go back have your experience - they like the work but dislike the job.  Most end up FIREing again in under a year.  So I'll probably either need to not scratch the itch, or find a situation where the work is much more important than the job.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 22, 2022, 10:57:33 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 22, 2022, 09:43:11 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on March 22, 2022, 09:28:07 AM

I guess my point is just that there is a reason why when we finally leave we leave. And I don't think it's because we just don't want to work. I think for most people it really is the job. Or it's that you have something else you really want to do with your time. Or some combination of the two. Which means no matter what, when you leave, you should just leave. Be done. Don't go back. It's not better and you don't need the money. (or you can find money somewhere else)

ok. end rant.

Timely reminder, so thank you.

I've been FIREd about six years now and while I don't regret it and don't think I quit too early and I have enough money, I am starting to get a little bit of an itch for what I would call a third act (first act engineering, second act management).  What I know is that most people who go back have your experience - they like the work but dislike the job.  Most end up FIREing again in under a year.  So I'll probably either need to not scratch the itch, or find a situation where the work is much more important than the job.

My couple anecdotes - my Dad was hired back as a consultant not long after he retired in his 50's.  The 'name your price' finally wore him down, but he absolutely hated it and didn't last long.

My DW has gone in to a new line of work as an elementary school teacher, after a 7 year hiatus, and absolutely loves it.  She has a BS in health science and worked in big pharma for about 10 years, but it wore her down seeing all the drugs people take and how unaffordable they are...  She has a natural ability to make education entertaining for kids and loves the interactions, but yeah, she makes almost no money.  Definitely doing it for the work and to fill in a gap now that the kids and preparing to leave the nest...   

So ultimately, when I decide to pull the ER plug, I'm doing it fully intending to leave my engineering career behind.  I'll always have the 'engineering mindset', but I won't be building offshore oil and gas platforms by myself in my garage...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 22, 2022, 11:38:55 AM

Super useful, @BeanCounter - thanks for the follow up. It's definitely the meetings & politics that wear me down. Less the work itself. And, absolutely stealing the "recreational analytics", because that is such an amazing & accurate keeper.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 22, 2022, 11:44:46 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 22, 2022, 11:38:55 AM

Super useful, @BeanCounter - thanks for the follow up. It's definitely the meetings & politics that wear me down. Less the work itself. And, absolutely stealing the "recreational analytics", because that is such an amazing & accurate keeper.

When I wrote reports, I liked to store data about who ran them, how often, and when were they last run.   That way, if we had to replace that system we knew whether a report could just be tossed in the wastebin of history, or who to talk to about necessary changes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 22, 2022, 12:03:47 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on March 22, 2022, 09:28:07 AM

I was listening to the podcast "The Happiness Lab" (highly recommend) with Dr. Laurie Santos of Yale. They did an episode on burnout (Feb 21, 2022) and that was me before I FIRED. I think being back just brings back a lot of those feelings.
Some of it is constant stupid meetings (for which I'm being paid $150 an hour but I'd rather be doing anything else and not getting paid)
And creating stupid reports that people think they want or need and then they either are never used or are used for just navel gazing/recreational analytics (as I call it) Sometimes those reports drive just tons of stupid questions but then no real action.
And then there is the endless politics and bureaucracy of large companies.

This is so validating. Maybe I’m suffering from confirmation bias, but I’m running with it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fru-Gal on March 22, 2022, 01:18:34 PM

I left because of the endless Zoom meetings, the bureaucracy, the “recreational analytics” (so apt!), and a very bad boss who just got more and more difficult even as he tried to “coach” me while exhibiting no professional boundaries or time management skills. I’ll admit to a twinge of jealousy when I saw that huge compensation package mentioned here. Part of me thought that should’ve been me yet somehow I wasn’t able to play the game well enough. But the honest truth is that I have another great purpose in my life (passion project) so I did the corporate game and I won it and I left. But even without the passion project I am one of those people who just does so many different things. You could say I lack focus or you could say I just like a lot of different things. And now I have time to do them. The cautionary tales about going back to your company are useful… They have already approached me (albeit not with anything near a job offer or compensation commensurate with my 20 years of stellar results, just freelancing).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 22, 2022, 01:50:24 PM

Quote from: Fru-Gal on March 22, 2022, 01:18:34 PM

I left because of the endless Zoom meetings, the bureaucracy, the “recreational analytics” (so apt!), and a very bad boss who just got more and more difficult even as he tried to “coach” me while exhibiting no professional boundaries or time management skills. I’ll admit to a twinge of jealousy when I saw that huge compensation package mentioned here. Part of me thought that should’ve been me yet somehow I wasn’t able to play the game well enough. But the honest truth is that I have another great purpose in my life (passion project) so I did the corporate game and I won it and I left. But even without the passion project I am one of those people who just does so many different things. You could say I lack focus or you could say I just like a lot of different things. And now I have time to do them. The cautionary tales about going back to your company are useful… They have already approached me (albeit not with anything near a job offer or compensation commensurate with my 20 years of stellar results, just freelancing).

Not sure if you're referring to my comp, but a few potentially helpful notes. I ended up in a career that I could have never expected, and each job has led me further down this path. Luckily, I do work in a group that is generally awesome & psychologically safe (very much not without other flaws that you'll find in a large company). I'd attribute the comp more to a very unique skill set, & then growth & leadership in a specific area, plus just general lack of talent in this area. I recruit often for folks to report to me & they are just incredibly hard to find. Of course, there's game playing as well, but a much smaller amount than you might expect in a role like this.

I also find the multitude of skills to be really appealing, so I think you are well positioned for whatever the future holds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on March 22, 2022, 01:57:46 PM

Well I'm certainly glad I'm not the only one that feels this way! The thing I don't understand is WHY people continue to work in these positions. Sure I was well compensated. Sure I had a "cushy" job. But it was truly sole sucking.

I think they said something in that podcast about burnout that one of the symptoms is you feel your work is meaningless. That's where I was at. I would drive to my cushy office and think about every other job I'd rather do that that one. It was bad.
I also had the president of my area at the time who would frequently come to me with some hair on fire emergency "we need to look at the profitability of contract x,y,x" or "we've got to run claims analytics on these patients to see where we need to add programing to limit costs" etc. And it would always be some go back to work after dinner, don't tuck my kids in, stay up all night situation to get her the data to solve "big important problem of the week" and then later I'd figure out that they never used it. Never looked at my report. Had moved on to something else. I MISSED TIME WITH MY CHILDREN FOR THAT SHIT!!!!!!

I really wonder when these big companies will see that this is a problem? Because I don't think it was unique to my job. Or when will employees start to say enough?

So this morning I was on the phone with former employer now client and they ask me for this reporting on some program profitability for the last three years. Do you know how many times I've done that? Spun it this way or that for whatever is the latest question. So of course I had to take time out of my morning coffee and scroll to pull together this info, from the last three reports I've done this for. How many times can you answer the same question?
And that's why I posted. Because of the frustration this morning of answering the same question, maybe a slightly different way as I've done previously, and I'm pretty sure they won't listen this time either. Why? Because the answer still doesn't fit the corporate political agenda of the person asking it. I think that's really it in a nutshell.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 22, 2022, 02:12:51 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on March 22, 2022, 07:30:52 AM

Just dropping in today to say that going back to work on a part time contract for my former employer was the WORST decision I’ve ever made. 8 more weeks. I want to find a reason to end it early. DH says to stick it out, end on a high note (again) and buy myself something nice as a reward.

Heed this warning guys. When your old employer comes back asking for just a little temporary help, run. Run far fast.

By a coincidence, I just got off a call from my old boss (with whom I'm still friendly) asking if I was free for a short assignment. I tactfully declined because after 18 months of retirement, I don't think I can return to any kind of directed work. The greatest thing about being retired is getting up every morning, and deciding which of my projects I want to work on for that day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 22, 2022, 02:58:46 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 22, 2022, 02:12:51 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on March 22, 2022, 07:30:52 AM

Just dropping in today to say that going back to work on a part time contract for my former employer was the WORST decision I’ve ever made. 8 more weeks. I want to find a reason to end it early. DH says to stick it out, end on a high note (again) and buy myself something nice as a reward.

Heed this warning guys. When your old employer comes back asking for just a little temporary help, run. Run far fast.

By a coincidence, I just got off a call from my old boss (with whom I'm still friendly) asking if I was free for a short assignment. I tactfully declined because after 18 months of retirement, I don't think I can return to any kind of directed work. The greatest thing about being retired is getting up every morning, and deciding which of my projects I want to work on for that day.

Yup I'm feeling that pit in the stomach on a Sunday night too. I actually enjoy the work even!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 22, 2022, 05:10:56 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on March 22, 2022, 01:57:46 PM

Well I'm certainly glad I'm not the only one that feels this way! The thing I don't understand is WHY people continue to work in these positions. Sure I was well compensated. Sure I had a "cushy" job. But it was truly sole sucking.

I think they said something in that podcast about burnout that one of the symptoms is you feel your work is meaningless. That's where I was at. I would drive to my cushy office and think about every other job I'd rather do that that one. It was bad.
I also had the president of my area at the time who would frequently come to me with some hair on fire emergency "we need to look at the profitability of contract x,y,x" or "we've got to run claims analytics on these patients to see where we need to add programing to limit costs" etc. And it would always be some go back to work after dinner, don't tuck my kids in, stay up all night situation to get her the data to solve "big important problem of the week" and then later I'd figure out that they never used it. Never looked at my report. Had moved on to something else. I MISSED TIME WITH MY CHILDREN FOR THAT SHIT!!!!!!

I really wonder when these big companies will see that this is a problem? Because I don't think it was unique to my job. Or when will employees start to say enough?

So this morning I was on the phone with former employer now client and they ask me for this reporting on some program profitability for the last three years. Do you know how many times I've done that? Spun it this way or that for whatever is the latest question. So of course I had to take time out of my morning coffee and scroll to pull together this info, from the last three reports I've done this for. How many times can you answer the same question?
And that's why I posted. Because of the frustration this morning of answering the same question, maybe a slightly different way as I've done previously, and I'm pretty sure they won't listen this time either. Why? Because the answer still doesn't fit the corporate political agenda of the person asking it. I think that's really it in a nutshell.

Yup.   I fired bc of burnout but that was the symptom and not the cause.   I used to say all that....make a lot of money, cushy office, etc and would say there are 95%+ that would kill for the job (ignoring all that it took to get there of course) but yeah endless meetings (pre covid as I fire in 2019), endless reports, endless bs and micromanaging, etc and I was in a client facing revenue roll...can't imagine being in an expense side.   

I would have managers ask for models that would include tons of information not relevant to the decision being made....but ok, I will give them 3 scenarios  (base, sensitized, and best) input assumptions matter but for simplicity as an example I would run it at 7, 10 and 13.....and you know what I  would get asked...."could you run it at 7.1, 10.1, and 12.9?" (Which makes no material change whatsoever).   I mean I would get it if the ask was for 5, 10, and 15, well not really bc I knee my shit, buy after I would give the update models I would get asked how about at 6.9, 9.9 and 13.1?   WTF are you kidding me.....

Multiply that over a thousand interactions a week from all levels (policy and compliance hacks were the worst...no value add so all they had was justifying their existence).   

It got to the point where I probably spent a out 10% of my time (being generous) on what actual role was and the only part I enjoyed and that's when I knew.   It was always between 60/40 and 40/60 which is normal but 10/90 nope.

I digress, but corporate America is based on a whole lot of people that need to justify their existence, which is why when economy slides they can do mass layoffs and still hit same revenue numbers and even make more income.   

I have been asked to go back or with competitors but almost three years alter an dthe thought still makes me sick...burnout to PTSD like.   I am good.....helps to be in this club.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 22, 2022, 10:19:33 PM

I’ve been missing, being busy, passing CompTia A+ for work and on vacation. 

Well, so after living in the Bay Area for 4 months, I decided I could live here for a while, and I ran the numbers so it wouldn’t change my ability to FIRE when I’m eligible for my pension in July of 2025.  So like Dicey, I just got an offer accepted but on a 2 bedroom condo.  But in a kind of weird note, no other offers.  So I had an asking price of $680,000, no concessions offer accepted.  Place is huge for a 2 bedroom in the area, over 1,000 square feet with a huge balcony, 2 parking spots and 3 additional storage spots. 

 It was fun when the nice Rocket Mortgage person asked my ballpark net worth to be able to say $2.3 million, there weren’t anymore questions after that.  It’s 35 minutes to my current office and likely 45-60 to when we move to the East Bay.  (Which maybe summer of 2023 but we don’t know what construction snags we will meet, also I’ll be on the road for much of 2024 so it shouldn’t be a make or break).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on March 23, 2022, 06:42:48 AM

Just as a juxtaposition to posters above not regretting OMY or finding it offered them good opportunities they enjoyed... I have done a couple of OMYs and they have ... just been OMY.  I'm not sure I regret them exactly (I've reduced my hours and spent more time with my kids, and Covid would have restricted a lot of the other things I could have done anyway), but neither have they given me new insights or a renewed love of my job or particularly exciting opportunities or anything. 

I guess I've been glad to do the job NOT in a state of overwhelming burnout, as it's made clear to me that it's not just the burn out - I have actually fallen out of love with the underlying work too.  There are still parts I enjoy, get satisfaction from and will miss, for sure - and many of the people are clever and interesting and nice to work with.  But there are clever, interesting and nice people out of work too - and I can spend time with them without paying the price of having to spend bits of my holiday trying to do a conference call from the back of the beach while watching my partner have fun with the kids, or spending a nice dinner out worrying about some client issue that I have to deal with in the morning.

I'm under no illusions: it's an immensely privileged position to be in. The job is not terrible or evil and pays crazy amounts (I actually made my biggest pay check ever last year despite only working 3 days a week on average).  But on the other hand there are other ways to use your privilege for good than dying on a massive heap of money and leaving it to good causes.

So I'm planning to wind down over the course of this year and stop by year end.

I have a few disparate ideas of how to spend my time post-FIRE.  I don't rule out returning to some kind of work (probably in the public sector if I think I can find a way to add value without having to do battle with insane amounts of politics and bureaucracy) - or volunteering in relation to one of my particular interests.  To begin with, I just want a break to spend time with family and get on top of the house.  But long term, I am just trying to have confidence that I will find something valuable to do with my time, without worrying too much about what it is.  Worst comes to worst, if I changed my mind in the next 2-3 years I could almost certainly walk back into the job I'm doing now, before my contacts and experience completely expire.  But I really hope and expect not to be doing that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 23, 2022, 08:22:58 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on March 22, 2022, 10:19:33 PM

I’ve been missing, being busy, passing CompTia A+ for work and on vacation. 

Well, so after living in the Bay Area for 4 months, I decided I could live here for a while, and I ran the numbers so it wouldn’t change my ability to FIRE when I’m eligible for my pension in July of 2025.  So like Dicey, I just got an offer accepted but on a 2 bedroom condo.  But in a kind of weird note, no other offers.  So I had an asking price of $680,000, no concessions offer accepted.  Place is huge for a 2 bedroom in the area, over 1,000 square feet with a huge balcony, 2 parking spots and 3 additional storage spots. 

 It was fun when the nice Rocket Mortgage person asked my ballpark net worth to be able to say $2.3 million, there weren’t anymore questions after that.  It’s 35 minutes to my current office and likely 45-60 to when we move to the East Bay.  (Which maybe summer of 2023 but we don’t know what construction snags we will meet, also I’ll be on the road for much of 2024 so it shouldn’t be a make or break).

Welcome to the Bay Area! Super impressed you found affordable housing, and were the only offer. That's awesome.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 23, 2022, 08:48:02 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on March 23, 2022, 06:42:48 AM

Just as a juxtaposition to posters above not regretting OMY or finding it offered them good opportunities they enjoyed... I have done a couple of OMYs and they have ... just been OMY.  I'm not sure I regret them exactly (I've reduced my hours and spent more time with my kids, and Covid would have restricted a lot of the other things I could have done anyway), but neither have they given me new insights or a renewed love of my job or particularly exciting opportunities or anything. 

I guess I've been glad to do the job NOT in a state of overwhelming burnout, as it's made clear to me that it's not just the burn out - I have actually fallen out of love with the underlying work too.  There are still parts I enjoy, get satisfaction from and will miss, for sure - and many of the people are clever and interesting and nice to work with.  But there are clever, interesting and nice people out of work too - and I can spend time with them without paying the price of having to spend bits of my holiday trying to do a conference call from the back of the beach while watching my partner have fun with the kids, or spending a nice dinner out worrying about some client issue that I have to deal with in the morning.

I'm under no illusions: it's an immensely privileged position to be in. The job is not terrible or evil and pays crazy amounts (I actually made my biggest pay check ever last year despite only working 3 days a week on average).  But on the other hand there are other ways to use your privilege for good than dying on a massive heap of money and leaving it to good causes.

So I'm planning to wind down over the course of this year and stop by year end.

I have a few disparate ideas of how to spend my time post-FIRE.  I don't rule out returning to some kind of work (probably in the public sector if I think I can find a way to add value without having to do battle with insane amounts of politics and bureaucracy) - or volunteering in relation to one of my particular interests.  To begin with, I just want a break to spend time with family and get on top of the house.  But long term, I am just trying to have confidence that I will find something valuable to do with my time, without worrying too much about what it is.  Worst comes to worst, if I changed my mind in the next 2-3 years I could almost certainly walk back into the job I'm doing now, before my contacts and experience completely expire.  But I really hope and expect not to be doing that.

The OMY decision is a tough one.  I was hopeful of 2020 being the year.  Turns out 2020 would have been a terrible year for us to leave.  2021 was mostly a 2020 repeat and 2023 became the target year.  Everything that has happened was pretty much predicted.  Even the Ukrainian war for the most part.  Winter set in during 2020 and we're just seeing some signs of Spring.  I'm thinking a few late frosts will destroy a few early blooms yet.  We're vastly more prepared now than in 2020.  It's so much more than financial status at play.  Although our finances have improved dramatically as well.  So 3 more years was the time we added.  1077 days actually.  These were the very best days to extend our work life.  Almost everything I wanted to retire for was shut down.  Our overbooked flight from Chicago to back home in New Orleans yesterday was proof things are returning.  It was still a fully loaded airplane,but we all had to wear masks.  I had not flown anywhere for two years.  Ironically the flight to Chicago was to attend memorial services for a friend lost to COVID complications. 
Good times are coming back.  Paying in a few more dues will make the prize sweeter.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fru-Gal on March 23, 2022, 02:56:03 PM

Quote

Not sure if you're referring to my comp, but a few potentially helpful notes. I ended up in a career that I could have never expected, and each job has led me further down this path. Luckily, I do work in a group that is generally awesome & psychologically safe (very much not without other flaws that you'll find in a large company). I'd attribute the comp more to a very unique skill set, & then growth & leadership in a specific area, plus just general lack of talent in this area. I recruit often for folks to report to me & they are just incredibly hard to find. Of course, there's game playing as well, but a much smaller amount than you might expect in a role like this.

I also find the multitude of skills to be really appealing, so I think you are well positioned for whatever the future holds.

Yes, @MaybeBabyMustache you were the one, was too lazy to look up your name. I have a similar story to yours, hence the feeling of “that could’ve been me”. In my case my final employer was a former client of the small company I ran in a field that became increasingly lucrative. A lot of people were surprised when I took a job with them because they assumed I was making so much. But I was not able to imagine how I could’ve had anything near the six-figure cash flow that I had as an employed person. Plus of course the benefits!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: marty998 on March 24, 2022, 04:27:43 AM

@marty998 has entered the chat.

G'day everyone. Didn't think I'd ever get here this quickly. On we go!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 24, 2022, 04:32:02 AM

Quote from: marty998 on March 24, 2022, 04:27:43 AM

@marty998 has entered the chat.

G'day everyone. Didn't think I'd ever get here this quickly. On we go!

Welcome!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on March 24, 2022, 05:34:19 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 23, 2022, 08:48:02 AM

Good times are coming back. Paying in a few more dues will make the prize sweeter.

Unless you OMY until you're either dead or incapacitated. It's a slippery slope you know.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 24, 2022, 06:25:56 AM

Quote from: marty998 on March 24, 2022, 04:27:43 AM

@marty998 has entered the chat.

G'day everyone. Didn't think I'd ever get here this quickly. On we go!

Never a good sign when someone @'s themselves...  LOL.  Congrats!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 24, 2022, 08:49:13 AM

Quote from: marty998 on March 24, 2022, 04:27:43 AM

@marty998 has entered the chat.

G'day everyone. Didn't think I'd ever get here this quickly. On we go!

Welcome!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 25, 2022, 07:52:35 AM

Was updating my SS records yesterday to get a picture of what my future payments will be as it had been a number of years since I last did that and realized that as of this month my net working income (W-2 earnings plus former solo business profits) will hit $5M.  When markets hit new highs will be about the time my N.W. will also hit $5M, as I'm a few percent short right now.  I do like round numbers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 25, 2022, 10:48:03 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 25, 2022, 07:52:35 AM

Was updating my SS records yesterday to get a picture of what my future payments will be as it had been a number of years since I last did that and realized that as of this month my net working income (W-2 earnings plus former solo business profits) will hit $5M.  When markets hit new highs will be about the time my N.W. will also hit $5M, as I'm a few percent short right now.  I do like round numbers.

For what it's worth, $5M was when I finally declared FatFI and really stopped paying attention.  It is indeed a nice round number, but also gave me more reason to stop paying attention.  First off, it wasn't unusual for NW to go up or down $50k in a day, which is like watching a fancy car be added or substracted daily!  It also provides for $200k/year via the 4% Rule, or $100k/year at 2%.  I'll be lucky to spend $100k/year (no mortgage or debt anymore), but 2% withdrawal means I'll die with more money than I have today.  Which brought me to my final realization - my net worth will probably double and then double again before I pass away.  That easily puts me in the 8 figure club and then some...

Life hasn't changed much since I worked through all of these philosophical realizations, other than me not updating net worth very often anymore.  And I'm also less likely to face punch people :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: marcus_aurelius on March 25, 2022, 02:58:16 PM

We're officially members of the "..and beyond" club. I looked at our portfolio after a few months, and our NW is a little over $6M! Big rocks are: paid off house of $2.8M, retirement accounts of $1.6M, post-tax stocks of $1.6M, and 529 funds for the kids of ~$200K (to which we need to add another $150K in the next 2-4 years). Can’t believe how our stash has grown over the last 5 years. Paying off the house last year has allowed our savings rate to skyrocket.

Have a good weekend everyone!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 25, 2022, 03:40:23 PM

Some interesting milestones today. NW hit $3.2 million. Annual bonuses hit the savings account. After a few too many years at my current job, my counter-offer on a new opportunity was verbally accepted, and I’m ready for something new. DW can support us with her income and medical, but I’m not ready to FIRE, so off to a new opportunity with some industry colleagues who I have known for a long time. Just have to finish up our family vacation and give notice when I get back.

I’ve been ready to leave the job for 2-3 years, but for various reasons involving location and family, it is something I haven’t been ready to do, and then Covid and WFH made it easy to stick around a couple more years. More updates as the next few weeks play out. Fortunately they’ll be in this thread and not in the FU Money thread. I thought I might be sharing there sooner or later!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 25, 2022, 04:53:29 PM

Quote from: marcus_aurelius on March 25, 2022, 02:58:16 PM

paid off house of $2.8M

Wowzer, that's hard to comprehend.  I don't think there's a $2.8M house in my county.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 25, 2022, 08:59:01 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 25, 2022, 04:53:29 PM

Quote from: marcus_aurelius on March 25, 2022, 02:58:16 PM

paid off house of $2.8M

Wowzer, that's hard to comprehend.  I don't think there's a $2.8M house in my county.

I'm right there with you.   The only way I'll live in a $2.8M house is if inflation really skyrockets the value of the one I bought for one hell of a lot less -- or I live a whole lot longer than expected.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: marty998 on March 26, 2022, 03:06:29 PM

Thanks guys

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 24, 2022, 06:25:56 AM

Quote from: marty998 on March 24, 2022, 04:27:43 AM

@marty998 has entered the chat.

G'day everyone. Didn't think I'd ever get here this quickly. On we go!

Never a good sign when someone @'s themselves...  LOL.  Congrats!

Oh Jesus I can't believe I did that haha. Having never been much on it, I've been managing an instagram page or two lately for a community group I'm involved in. Excessive use of the "@" button to tag people is encouraged, so maybe that's where it is coming from ha.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 31, 2022, 01:17:14 AM

I gave notice today. We’ll see what happens tomorrow. I’m curious to see the reaction from senior leadership. While I’ve given hints, I don’t think they really expected me to walk away. I don’t think they understand that work is optional at this point, and I opt not to work there any longer. More tomorrow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 31, 2022, 04:03:50 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on March 31, 2022, 01:17:14 AM

I gave notice today. We’ll see what happens tomorrow. I’m curious to see the reaction from senior leadership. While I’ve given hints, I don’t think they really expected me to walk away. I don’t think they understand that work is optional at this point, and I opt not to work there any longer. More tomorrow.

Good luck - let us know how it goes! Will be following with interest :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 31, 2022, 05:32:04 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 31, 2022, 04:03:50 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on March 31, 2022, 01:17:14 AM

I gave notice today. We’ll see what happens tomorrow. I’m curious to see the reaction from senior leadership. While I’ve given hints, I don’t think they really expected me to walk away. I don’t think they understand that work is optional at this point, and I opt not to work there any longer. More tomorrow.

Good luck - let us know how it goes! Will be following with interest :-)

+1!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on March 31, 2022, 08:27:18 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on March 31, 2022, 01:17:14 AM

I gave notice today. We’ll see what happens tomorrow. I’m curious to see the reaction from senior leadership. While I’ve given hints, I don’t think they really expected me to walk away. I don’t think they understand that work is optional at this point, and I opt not to work there any longer. More tomorrow.

Congrats! For me the weeks between giving notice and my last day were rough. Lots of anxiety and waking up in the middle of the night with this fear that I had done an awful, stupid thing. And having to deal with people's opinions of what I was doing. Some being supportive, some asking too many questions and thinking I was crazy, some being envious. And then dealing with transitioning my work. Just lots of SHIT to deal with in those days leading up to "laptop turn in".
Then the first few months after turning in my laptop were days of kind of wandering, feeling like I should be doing something but not sure what. And feeling like I was forgetting something. I went running a lot. And took a lot of naps. Lots of dealing with how much of my identity was actually wrapped into my job title.
Then it started to get better. Eight months into RE I came back as a contractor part time and it has done nothing but prove that FIREing was the right thing.

I think all of that is normal. Just sharing in case it helps you. Just remember one thing- everyone that says "it will be awesome" is right.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 31, 2022, 10:50:55 AM

Spot on @BeanCounter I used to wake up at 3am and had t get up and go over the numbers again because I was convinced I had missed something in the calculations! Because you are clearly thinking much more clearly in a dream at 3am!

I think it was about 9 months before it felt normal.

Now being back at work (short term contract) its clear retirement is a very pleasant state to be in..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 01, 2022, 06:01:22 AM

Holy shit 2022 is a bitch.  Work has been my refuge in this crazy year.  Recently helped our son buy a used car.  Dave Ramsey followers think (Dave Car) 2007 Toyota Camry with 168K miles.  It's a one owner friend's car, I was just under the car inspecting it.  Looked great and drove great.  after less than a week of ownership the transmission blows.  Fuck!
My wife, myself and his girlfriend have been getting him back and forth to work for weeks.  The fuel and time costs are barely worth his shitty salary.   We went looking for more used cars yesterday.  Junk.  Expensive junk is all that's out there.  Finally decided to end the shit.  We went to the Kia dealership and bought the only economy car they had new on the lot.  It  had just dropped in from the factory.  Most of the cars on the truck were already presold.  He'll be paying $500 a month for 60 months for the right to drive and that's just the loan.  Mustacian?  Hell no.  He'll be working just be able to drive to work.  I told him he needs a higher paying job.  He's in a highly technical job that pays shit, but has gotten comfortable in the three years he's worked there.  Anyway, my wife and I have several vacations coming up and had to get this situation fixed before then.  This car is 1% of our wealth.  Basically a pimple on our ass.  Lance the puss and move on.

Tornadoes.  Y'all may have heard of the tornados in New Orleans recently.  My wife and I landed in New Orleans on a flight from Chicago an hour before that tornado touched down.  In an attempt to improve our freaking karma I volunteered three days this week with Team Rubicon.  A disaster response veterans based organization.  I must say I love these people.  Dammit!  Why haven't I been doing this.  I've definitely found my retirement civic organization.  If you haven't been military, police or firefighter it may seem odd at first.  You'll adapt quickly even if you aren't, the organization is open to all people.  These are some of the best folks I've ever been around.  We helped a lot of people clean up the mess from the tornados.  These same people have recently rebuilt from floods and hurricanes.   There are also regional operations going on in Texas, Mississippi, Arkansas and Alabama.  There have been operations in every US state and many countries across the globe.  There is a medical mission right now in Poland helping war refugee's from Ukraine.  Hopefully through Team Rubicon, I can help reduce the suck in others people's lives.
It's all good.  It would be boring as Hell without constant chaos.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Allie on April 01, 2022, 07:21:19 AM

We also landed in the NOLA airport an hour before the tornados started (although not from Chicago).  I’ll bet we passed each other in the baggage area.  I’m glad you and your wife arrived safely and avoided the storms.  Team rubicon sounds like a wonderful org.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 01, 2022, 07:42:50 AM

Quote from: Allie on April 01, 2022, 07:21:19 AM

We also landed in the NOLA airport an hour before the tornados started (although not from Chicago).  I’ll bet we passed each other in the baggage area.  I’m glad you and your wife arrived safely and avoided the storms.  Team rubicon sounds like a wonderful org.

Small world.  The weather had baggage backed up at the time.  We flew straight down the cold front.  The passengers nor the flight attendants unbuckled the entire bumpy flight.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Watchmaker on April 01, 2022, 07:44:08 AM

Quote from: Watchmaker on November 30, 2021, 09:47:43 AM

Hello all, I've just managed to squeak into this thread this month (2.01 MM). I'm struggling a bit with my plan at this point, but continuing to work for now.

And four months later, I'm at... 2.03 MM. It was actually a pleasant surprise to see I'm back above 2 million for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Allie on April 01, 2022, 07:54:09 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 01, 2022, 07:42:50 AM

Quote from: Allie on April 01, 2022, 07:21:19 AM

We also landed in the NOLA airport an hour before the tornados started (although not from Chicago).  I’ll bet we passed each other in the baggage area.  I’m glad you and your wife arrived safely and avoided the storms.  Team rubicon sounds like a wonderful org.

Small world.  The weather had baggage backed up at the time.  We flew straight down the cold front.  The passengers nor the flight attendants unbuckled the entire bumpy flight.

That sounds awful.  Our plane’s bags were half unloaded when they made the announcement and shut it all down.  Thankfully, our bags came out in the first half and we were able to skeedaddle out of there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 01, 2022, 08:35:42 AM

Bateaux - I admire you for helping people.  I should do similarly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Zoot on April 01, 2022, 09:14:19 AM

Well, everybody, I've finally decided to declare my presence in this thread.

As of month-end for March, we're at $2.04MM net worth, $1.62MM when removing home equity.

I feel kind of smarmy for declaring $2MM, because of the home equity piece--both because it plumps up the total figure and because I recently increased the value of our home in our household balance sheet based on comps in our neighborhood, thereby giving a bump to the equity number--but there it is.  I think I won't feel like a "real" multi-millionaire until our non-home assets are over $2MM.  ;-)

We could pay off the remaining mortgage (at 3.125%) by selling some equities (and incurring some capital gains as a result) and dumping out our cash reserve, but we've decided to let it ride for now.  I'm itching to pull that trigger--I understand the math of why NOT to pay it off, but gosh, it would be nice not to have to account for a mortgage payment in our cash flow needs. 

For now, DH (44) and I (55) are still employed full time.  He's in a job he loves and I'm in a job I can at least tolerate, and we're not QUITE to the point where our stash could fund our cash flow needs (see above about the mortgage payment cramping my style!), so we're continuing to squirrel away funds until such time as one or both of us is ready to pull the trigger and declare FIRE.

Anyway--glad to be here, even on a "technicality."  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 01, 2022, 09:44:49 AM

Quote from: Zoot on April 01, 2022, 09:14:19 AM

Well, everybody, I've finally decided to declare my presence in this thread.

As of month-end for March, we're at $2.04MM net worth, $1.62MM when removing home equity.

I feel kind of smarmy for declaring $2MM, because of the home equity piece--both because it plumps up the total figure and because I recently increased the value of our home in our household balance sheet based on comps in our neighborhood, thereby giving a bump to the equity number--but there it is.  I think I won't feel like a "real" multi-millionaire until our non-home assets are over $2MM.  ;-)

We could pay off the remaining mortgage (at 3.125%) by selling some equities (and incurring some capital gains as a result) and dumping out our cash reserve, but we've decided to let it ride for now.  I'm itching to pull that trigger--I understand the math of why NOT to pay it off, but gosh, it would be nice not to have to account for a mortgage payment in our cash flow needs. 

For now, DH (44) and I (55) are still employed full time.  He's in a job he loves and I'm in a job I can at least tolerate, and we're not QUITE to the point where our stash could fund our cash flow needs (see above about the mortgage payment cramping my style!), so we're continuing to squirrel away funds until such time as one or both of us is ready to pull the trigger and declare FIRE.

Anyway--glad to be here, even on a "technicality."  :)

I proped up my NW with property when I first jumped to this thread.  There are no NW police here.  You'll be legit soon enough.  You could always sell the house and live in your car.  Have fun on your journey.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on April 01, 2022, 10:06:40 AM

In my view wealth is wealth! Hope you're ready to let go of the only tolerable job soon!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Zoot on April 01, 2022, 10:50:05 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 01, 2022, 09:44:49 AM

I proped up my NW with property when I first jumped to this thread.  There are no NW police here.  You'll be legit soon enough.  You could always sell the house and live in your car.  Have fun on your journey.

Glad to be in such good company, Bateaux!  :) 

And you know, I never thought of it that way--selling the house and living in the car, i.e., moving the dollars from one column into another.  That's really the only difference in home equity and investable assets, isn't it?  The dollars are there--they are just "invested" in real estate I happen to live in.  I can feel my brain re-wiring itself on that as I type.  Thanks for that perspective!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Zoot on April 01, 2022, 10:54:35 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on April 01, 2022, 10:06:40 AM

In my view wealth is wealth! Hope you're ready to let go of the only tolerable job soon!

The day can't come soon enough. :)

I've set myself multiple goals over the years--$1MM net worth, $1MM plus paid off house, the year the Rule of 55 hits, $2MM net worth.  I've hit every one of those (the last two in the past 3 months!) and yet I'm still working; it's really hard to turn off the "firehose of cash."  The firm line I've drawn for myself is that I won't work a day past January 2, 2026 (the first working day of the year I turn 59.5 and can draw from my retirement accounts without penalty).  Hoping I can extricate myself from my bad case of OMY before then, though!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on April 01, 2022, 12:28:48 PM

Quote from: Zoot on April 01, 2022, 10:54:35 AM

The firm line I've drawn for myself is that I won't work a day past January 2, 2026 (the first working day of the year I turn 59.5 and can draw from my retirement accounts without penalty).  Hoping I can extricate myself from my bad case of OMY before then, though!

I hope you make it out sooner; you probably will.

But I just popped in to note something that I hope you're aware of:  The 59.5 rule is that penalty-free withdrawals must happen after you actually are 59.5.  Withdrawals that happen in the year in which you turn 59.5 but before you actually turn 59.5 would still incur the 10% penalty.

So if you were to turn 59.5 in November of 2026, a withdrawal on January 3, 2026 would incur the 10% penalty.  A withdrawal on December 1, 2026 would not.

Overall probably a minor issue, but I thought I'd point it out.  Perhaps it will save some 55 year olds some penalties some year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 01, 2022, 12:57:19 PM

We hit the midway point of the race this month.  Was it really only 2 years ago that I joined this thread?  Nuts. I have a feeling it's going to take much longer for the "Beyond" part here because of 3 kids in college.  In one more year we will unload our fancy pants house and potentially live in a tiny trailer and smaller FIRE house for two years.  Bring on the living poor with lots of assets life. I don't know why I keep thinking about going back to work, but I think it's because I lack a true purpose right now, and that feels wrong. I will be evaluating volunteer/life options over the next few months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Zoot on April 01, 2022, 03:46:16 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on April 01, 2022, 12:28:48 PM

But I just popped in to note something that I hope you're aware of:  The 59.5 rule is that penalty-free withdrawals must happen after you actually are 59.5.  Withdrawals that happen in the year in which you turn 59.5 but before you actually turn 59.5 would still incur the 10% penalty.

So if you were to turn 59.5 in November of 2026, a withdrawal on January 3, 2026 would incur the 10% penalty.  A withdrawal on December 1, 2026 would not.

Overall probably a minor issue, but I thought I'd point it out.  Perhaps it will save some 55 year olds some penalties some year.

Oh, my goodness--thank you for that distinction!  I thought the 59.5 thing worked the same as the Rule of 55--that is, that it was in the year that those things happened, not the specific date.  I never knew that the 59.5 was your ACTUAL half-birthday; I thought it worked like the "year in which you turn 55" thing.

Now, thankfully, my birthday is pretty early in the year so I'd be looking at an early-Q3 date instead of January 2.  Still, the thought of adding 183 days to my hard-stop date is actually pretty depressing--might give me the kick in the pants I need to figure out how to leave sooner (hopefully a LOT sooner).  But in case it comes to waiting until 2026 to pull the plug, you just saved me a LOT of money in taxes.  :)

(edit: syntax)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on April 01, 2022, 05:26:52 PM

Quote from: Zoot on April 01, 2022, 03:46:16 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on April 01, 2022, 12:28:48 PM

But I just popped in to note something that I hope you're aware of:  The 59.5 rule is that penalty-free withdrawals must happen after you actually are 59.5.  Withdrawals that happen in the year in which you turn 59.5 but before you actually turn 59.5 would still incur the 10% penalty.

So if you were to turn 59.5 in November of 2026, a withdrawal on January 3, 2026 would incur the 10% penalty.  A withdrawal on December 1, 2026 would not.

Overall probably a minor issue, but I thought I'd point it out.  Perhaps it will save some 55 year olds some penalties some year.

Oh, my goodness--thank you for that distinction!  I thought the 59.5 thing worked the same as the Rule of 55--that is, that it was in the year that those things happened, not the specific date.  I never knew that the 59.5 was your ACTUAL half-birthday; I thought it worked like the "year in which you turn 55" thing.

Now, thankfully, my birthday is pretty early in the year so I'd be looking at an early-Q3 date instead of January 2.  Still, the thought of adding 183 days to my hard-stop date is actually pretty depressing--might give me the kick in the pants I need to figure out how to leave sooner (hopefully a LOT sooner).  But in case it comes to waiting until 2026 to pull the plug, you just saved me a LOT of money in taxes.  :)

(edit: syntax)

I'm glad the clarification was useful.

Maybe you can save some in taxable or do a Roth conversion ladder or use the Rule of 55 (which is the calendar year thing as you state) or something rather than have to work longer. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 01, 2022, 09:38:17 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 01, 2022, 09:44:49 AM

Quote from: Zoot on April 01, 2022, 09:14:19 AM

Well, everybody, I've finally decided to declare my presence in this thread.

As of month-end for March, we're at $2.04MM net worth, $1.62MM when removing home equity.

I feel kind of smarmy for declaring $2MM, because of the home equity piece--both because it plumps up the total figure and because I recently increased the value of our home in our household balance sheet based on comps in our neighborhood, thereby giving a bump to the equity number--but there it is.  I think I won't feel like a "real" multi-millionaire until our non-home assets are over $2MM.  ;-)

We could pay off the remaining mortgage (at 3.125%) by selling some equities (and incurring some capital gains as a result) and dumping out our cash reserve, but we've decided to let it ride for now.  I'm itching to pull that trigger--I understand the math of why NOT to pay it off, but gosh, it would be nice not to have to account for a mortgage payment in our cash flow needs. 

For now, DH (44) and I (55) are still employed full time.  He's in a job he loves and I'm in a job I can at least tolerate, and we're not QUITE to the point where our stash could fund our cash flow needs (see above about the mortgage payment cramping my style!), so we're continuing to squirrel away funds until such time as one or both of us is ready to pull the trigger and declare FIRE.

Anyway--glad to be here, even on a "technicality."  :)

I proped up my NW with property when I first jumped to this thread.  There are no NW police here.  You'll be legit soon enough.  You could always sell the house and live in your car.  Have fun on your journey.

Heck, I propped up my NW with fuzzy math based on having a pension plus home equity to get in this thread.

Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on April 02, 2022, 05:07:16 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on April 01, 2022, 09:38:17 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 01, 2022, 09:44:49 AM

Quote from: Zoot on April 01, 2022, 09:14:19 AM

Well, everybody, I've finally decided to declare my presence in this thread.

As of month-end for March, we're at $2.04MM net worth, $1.62MM when removing home equity.

I feel kind of smarmy for declaring $2MM, because of the home equity piece--both because it plumps up the total figure and because I recently increased the value of our home in our household balance sheet based on comps in our neighborhood, thereby giving a bump to the equity number--but there it is.  I think I won't feel like a "real" multi-millionaire until our non-home assets are over $2MM.  ;-)

We could pay off the remaining mortgage (at 3.125%) by selling some equities (and incurring some capital gains as a result) and dumping out our cash reserve, but we've decided to let it ride for now.  I'm itching to pull that trigger--I understand the math of why NOT to pay it off, but gosh, it would be nice not to have to account for a mortgage payment in our cash flow needs. 

For now, DH (44) and I (55) are still employed full time.  He's in a job he loves and I'm in a job I can at least tolerate, and we're not QUITE to the point where our stash could fund our cash flow needs (see above about the mortgage payment cramping my style!), so we're continuing to squirrel away funds until such time as one or both of us is ready to pull the trigger and declare FIRE.

Anyway--glad to be here, even on a "technicality."  :)

I proped up my NW with property when I first jumped to this thread.  There are no NW police here.  You'll be legit soon enough.  You could always sell the house and live in your car.  Have fun on your journey.

Heck, I propped up my NW with fuzzy math based on having a pension plus home equity to get in this thread.

NW is NW, and for many Americans their house is their largest asset class. But liquidity does matter when wanting to produce cash flow from your assets.

When I do retirement cash flow projections I ignore my home equity and Roth. The latter is my unexpected health care / LTC fund :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: on the road on April 02, 2022, 08:06:42 AM

Joining this race, coming over from the $1M to $2M thread. Hello fellow travelers!

Quote from: on the road on April 02, 2022, 07:57:37 AM

I am moving on to the next thread after 23 months. I found MMM about 11 years ago. I don’t have great records from that time, but I doubt I had more than $100K invested. It took roughly 9 years from there to the first million and then 2 years for the second million thanks to big increases in income in recent years and a white hot stock market. MMM was a big help to me in getting here. Happy travels to all on the journey.

Liquid net worth

      2020       2021       2022
Jan              $1,428K    $1,979K
Feb     $984K    $1,463K    $1,967K
Mar     $883K    $1,501K    $1,991K
Apr     $721K    $1,720K    $2,111K
May   $1,092K    $1,793K
Jun              $1,828K
Jul              $1,841K
Aug   $1,217K    $1,860K
Sep   $1,260K    $1,906K
Oct   $1,265K    $1,866K
Nov   $1,253K    $1,951K
Dec   $1,375K    $1,911K

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on April 02, 2022, 08:30:35 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on April 02, 2022, 05:07:16 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on April 01, 2022, 09:38:17 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 01, 2022, 09:44:49 AM

Quote from: Zoot on April 01, 2022, 09:14:19 AM

Well, everybody, I've finally decided to declare my presence in this thread.

As of month-end for March, we're at $2.04MM net worth, $1.62MM when removing home equity.

I feel kind of smarmy for declaring $2MM, because of the home equity piece--both because it plumps up the total figure and because I recently increased the value of our home in our household balance sheet based on comps in our neighborhood, thereby giving a bump to the equity number--but there it is.  I think I won't feel like a "real" multi-millionaire until our non-home assets are over $2MM.  ;-)

We could pay off the remaining mortgage (at 3.125%) by selling some equities (and incurring some capital gains as a result) and dumping out our cash reserve, but we've decided to let it ride for now.  I'm itching to pull that trigger--I understand the math of why NOT to pay it off, but gosh, it would be nice not to have to account for a mortgage payment in our cash flow needs. 

For now, DH (44) and I (55) are still employed full time.  He's in a job he loves and I'm in a job I can at least tolerate, and we're not QUITE to the point where our stash could fund our cash flow needs (see above about the mortgage payment cramping my style!), so we're continuing to squirrel away funds until such time as one or both of us is ready to pull the trigger and declare FIRE.

Anyway--glad to be here, even on a "technicality."  :)

I proped up my NW with property when I first jumped to this thread.  There are no NW police here.  You'll be legit soon enough.  You could always sell the house and live in your car.  Have fun on your journey.

Heck, I propped up my NW with fuzzy math based on having a pension plus home equity to get in this thread.

NW is NW, and for many Americans is their largest asset class. But liquidity does matter when wanting to produce cash flow from your assets.

When I do retirement cash flow projections I ignore my home equity and Roth. The latter is my unexpected health care / LTC fund :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do a very similar thing @rmorris50 , I have my (conservative, I'm sure) spreadsheet calcs that go out 40 years and calculate an expected amount of cash that I will have left as I'm approaching room temperature and then I use home equity (but not HSA) as an added measure of safety if, for some reason my cash number turns negative due to market fluctuations.   Its one of about 3 approaches I use to triangulate on what is do-able for me in terms of RE.

For those of you who have actually ADDED to their stache balances since the end of 2021, all I can say is I'm not worthy.   I continue to actively contribute but I'm still only at about $2.25 invested as of 31 March which is down from my high water mark of $2.31 as of 31 Dec.   

@Bateaux sorry about your car fiasco, I'm inching my way closer to getting everyone out of college (one at the end of this year and one in mid 2023) and then I'm hoping things can stabilize for a couple years before pulling the trigger.

Congrats to @on the road and @Zoot (and others I may have missed) on joining the thread.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 02, 2022, 01:42:56 PM

@Zoot I had to comment on what it "feels" like to be a multimillionair...hmm.

For me I feel the same as that broke ass student in 1985 starting my first professional job and wondering if I can afford a house? Answer: barely!

At the recent market peak our liquid investments were $3.2M + $40k/year available in pensions and house worth around $600k (guess).

Honestly there was a short "no way, wow!" moment at $1M liquid, and then head shaking at how $1M turns into $3M and it gets easier and easier. But honestly money just becomes less and less relevant.

I think out of habit though we make it relevant.. Like I just took a short term job that is so ridiculously overpaid I simply couldn't resist.. But its stressful, eats up all my time, makes me exhausted ALL the time.. But heck I could add 10% (almost) to our NW in just a single year of work. This still makes no sense whatsoever!

I.e I am back to exchanging TIME for MONEY. TIME is limited and is a declining balance every day.. MONEY however will probably continue to grow unaided and I'll die with $10M+.

Yet I continue to to this job.. its a fun job to a degree and I enjoy it, but on balance I'd rather not do it.

What does it feel like? It doesn't feel like anything important.. In fact thats the thing.. It IS important when you DON'T have any money.. When you DO have it, its not important anymore.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 02, 2022, 03:42:17 PM

@Exflyboy - I was just thinking the same thing.  I logged onto my favorite thread to comment, and you beat me to it!

I turned in my resignation this week.  Unfortunately, my team was shocked, and some were sad.  My leaders were shocked, but honestly they shouldn't have been - I've been expressing concern and giving signals for a couple of years now, and nothing has changed.  When this new opportunity fell in my lap, it was easy to say yes.  Because what's the downside?  Retire early with $3M+ NW?  That's a pretty awesome downside. 

I called my cousin, a small business owner to share the news of all this yesterday.  The new opportunity is a partnership with a really reasonable buy-in, so I plan to write a check.  She encouraged that.  It will be 1% of our NW, and it should return several times that every year.  But if it doesn't, it's not the end of the world, right?  Then I picked up the mail this morning and found a Q1 check for a board position I have.  Also found a fairly large bill for legal advice related to the new opportunity - note to self, lawyers are expensive!  But it all washed out very much in my favor.

I'll start the new role mid-month.  I'm excited about the new team and the new work.  We'll do some cool stuff.  The cash flow will be nice, but in the background, most of that $3M+ will be working to generate more, and on average it will make more than I make by working.  And by the 4% rule, it will cover core spending and many ridiculous luxuries.

It's so strange that you focus on earning more and controlling spending for so long.  You finally hit $1 million NW, and you share on one of these threads, and smugly walk around the grocery store thinking, "None of these people know I'm a millionaire!"  Then, before you know it, you hit $2M.  Then boom, $3M.  If you don't quit working, the snowball accelerates.  And if you do quit working, opportunities jump out of the woodwork at you like @Exflyboy 's and you get to decide, "Do I really need more money?" It's truly wild.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on April 02, 2022, 03:51:07 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 02, 2022, 03:42:17 PM

@Exflyboy - I was just thinking the same thing.  I logged onto my favorite thread to comment, and you beat me to it!

I turned in my resignation this week.  Unfortunately, my team was shocked, and some were sad.  My leaders were shocked, but honestly they shouldn't have been - I've been expressing concern and giving signals for a couple of years now, and nothing has changed.  When this new opportunity fell in my lap, it was easy to say yes.  Because what's the downside?  Retire early with $3M+ NW?  That's a pretty awesome downside. 

I called my cousin, a small business owner to share the news of all this yesterday.  The new opportunity is a partnership with a really reasonable buy-in, so I plan to write a check.  She encouraged that.  It will be 1% of our NW, and it should return several times that every year.  But if it doesn't, it's not the end of the world, right?  Then I picked up the mail this morning and found a Q1 check for a board position I have.  Also found a fairly large bill for legal advice related to the new opportunity - note to self, lawyers are expensive!  But it all washed out very much in my favor.

I'll start the new role mid-month.  I'm excited about the new team and the new work.  We'll do some cool stuff.  The cash flow will be nice, but in the background, most of that $3M+ will be working to generate more, and on average it will make more than I make by working.  And by the 4% rule, it will cover core spending and many ridiculous luxuries.

It's so strange that you focus on earning more and controlling spending for so long.  You finally hit $1 million NW, and you share on one of these threads, and smugly walk around the grocery store thinking, "None of these people know I'm a millionaire!"  Then, before you know it, you hit $2M.  Then boom, $3M.  If you don't quit working, the snowball accelerates.  And if you do quit working, opportunities jump out of the woodwork at you like @Exflyboy 's and you get to decide, "Do I really need more money?" It's truly wild.

Please allow me to add my congratulations @Taran Wanderer -- sounds like a refreshing change of pace for you.  Good luck!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 02, 2022, 04:02:45 PM

Yup @Taran Wanderer I hope the new opportunity goes well.. and if it doesn't C'est La Vie..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ingrownstudentloans on April 02, 2022, 05:11:46 PM

Joining this race after a short stint in the 1-2 race.  Focusing on continuing to double my money in as short a period of time as possible.

(tracking retirement accounts, taxable accounts and conservative equity in my rental properties, investment land and side businesses)

12/2014    $32,000
12/2016    $64,000 (24 months)
1/2018      $128,000 (25 months)
5/2019      $256,000 (16 months)
11/2020  $512,000 (19 months)
12/2021  $1,024,000 (13 months)
4/2022    $2,048,000 (4 months)
[10/2023 $4,096,000 (19 months] **TARGET**
--
4/1/2022     $2,336,219

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: shureShote on April 03, 2022, 05:27:46 PM

Ingrown, those are awesome numbers! Good luck in this next step! You may have to change your username to Moore's Law.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ingrownstudentloans on April 05, 2022, 09:18:05 AM

Quote from: shureShote on April 03, 2022, 05:27:46 PM

Ingrown, those are awesome numbers! Good luck in this next step! You may have to change your username to Moore's Law.

Thanks, shure!  I doubt I can beat the speed from 1-2 as a lot of things collided at the right time to make those numbers work.  I was elevated to owner at work at the same time I made significant contributions resulting in a one-off 7-figure bonus.  My compensation has been increased, so bonuses of that size are unlikely to occur again, but wouldn't be turned down :)  Given the new expected ownership distributions and my increased salary, my goal to double again is a stretch but doable if I keep my head down.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Roboturner on April 14, 2022, 09:54:15 AM

Quote from: Roboturner on December 30, 2021, 02:55:51 PM

Spoiler: show

Q2 2016:
LNW: 528k
TNW: 720k

Q3 2016:
LNW: 652k
TNW: 845k

YE 2016:
LNW: 685k
TNW: 893k

Q1 2017:
LNW: 800k
TNW: 1001k

Q2 2017:
LNW: 845k
TNW: 1060k

Q3 2017:
LNW: 921k
TNW: 1142k

YE 2017:
LNW: 1,012k
TNW: 1,230k

Q1 2018:
LNW: 1.09 MM
TNW: 1.33 MM

Q2 2018:
LNW: 1.16 MM
TNW: 1.45 MM

Q3 2018:
LNW: 1.28 MM
TNW: 1.57 MM

YE 2018:
LNW: 1.14 MM
TNW: 1.43 MM

Q1 2019:
LNW: 1.41 MM
TNW: 1.71 MM

Q2 2019:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.78 MM

Q3 2019:
LNW: 1.64 MM
TNW: 1.82 MM

YE 2019:
LNW: 1.84 MM
TNW: 2.02 MM

Q1 2020:
LNW: 1.60 MM
TNW: 1.79 MM

Q2 2020:
LNW: 1.94 MM
TNW: 2.15 MM

Q3 2020:
LNW: 2.12 MM
TNW: 2.46 MM

YE 2020:
LNW: 2.40 MM
TNW: 2.74 MM

Q1 2021:
LNW: 2.69 MM
TNW: 3.00 MM

Q2 2021:
LNW: 2.52 MM
TNW: 3.30 MM

Q3 2021:
LNW: 3.08 MM
TNW: 3.54 MM

YE 2021:
LNW: 3.37 MM
TNW: 3.83 MM

Q1 2022:
LNW: 3.36 MM
TNW: 3.77 MM

Treading water on one salary with an unpredictable market, onward.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 16, 2022, 06:53:33 PM

I almost had a big issue.  I missed a 0 in my Real Estate downpayment wire.  Lucky for me that account didn’t exist so the wire got reversed.  But the blessing of being in the $2 million+ group was that I seriously was mentally calculating what I would sell in order to keep the deal while I hopefully got my money back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 18, 2022, 12:19:24 AM

I'm laid down in the back of the Expedition and my wife is driving us through the Florida darkness.  By daylight we'll arrive at our house.  It's been almost three months since we've been there.  This week kicks off summer vacations for us.  We'll be headed to Tampa in a few days for some beach and amusement park fun with friends.  The one mores continue to drop.  One more Easter, one more Fourth of July, one more Christmas, one more Mardi Gras. 
I can't imagine what it will be like having an open schedule.  No more torture on the body trying to squeeze every moment out of time off.  We just turned the dog leg from the panhandle to the peninsula.  We'd been eating up longitude headed east.  Now we're dropping latitude headed south.  Almost to the Suwannee River now.  I hope to paddle that entire river in coming years along with so.many more.  Hopefully we get out on the Rainbow River or Crystal River this week.  Just checking in.  Hope all of you are doing good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on April 18, 2022, 09:01:02 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 18, 2022, 12:19:24 AM

I'm laid down in the back of the Expedition and my wife is driving us through the Florida darkness.  By daylight we'll arrive at our house.  It's been almost three months since we've been there.  This week kicks off summer vacations for us.  We'll be headed to Tampa in a few days for some beach and amusement park fun with friends.  The one mores continue to drop.  One more Easter, one more Fourth of July, one more Christmas, one more Mardi Gras. 
I can't imagine what it will be like having an open schedule.  No more torture on the body trying to squeeze every moment out of time off.  We just turned the dog leg from the panhandle to the peninsula.  We'd been eating up longitude headed east.  Now we're dropping latitude headed south.  Almost to the Suwannee River now.  I hope to paddle that entire river in coming years along with so.many more.  Hopefully we get out on the Rainbow River or Crystal River this week.  Just checking in.  Hope all of you are doing good.

Go have a 60 oz margarita for me @ Marguerita Grill in Homosassa!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 18, 2022, 10:57:47 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 18, 2022, 12:19:24 AM

I'm laid down in the back of the Expedition and my wife is driving us through the Florida darkness.  By daylight we'll arrive at our house.  It's been almost three months since we've been there.  This week kicks off summer vacations for us.  We'll be headed to Tampa in a few days for some beach and amusement park fun with friends.  The one mores continue to drop.  One more Easter, one more Fourth of July, one more Christmas, one more Mardi Gras. 
I can't imagine what it will be like having an open schedule.  No more torture on the body trying to squeeze every moment out of time off.  We just turned the dog leg from the panhandle to the peninsula.  We'd been eating up longitude headed east.  Now we're dropping latitude headed south.  Almost to the Suwannee River now.  I hope to paddle that entire river in coming years along with so.many more.  Hopefully we get out on the Rainbow River or Crystal River this week.  Just checking in.  Hope all of you are doing good.

Certainly sounds better than the snow that was falling this morning.  Summer comes damned early down there.  Enjoy your break.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 18, 2022, 11:37:53 AM

Speaking of unusual weather, we have had a couple days of drenching rain, with more predicted. Friends, it does not rain in California in April! Or it hasn't in a very long time. We are ecstatic! So much happiness all around!

With tongue firmly in cheek, I say to you, @Bateaux, "Come on in, the water's fine!"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 19, 2022, 07:48:13 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 18, 2022, 10:57:47 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 18, 2022, 12:19:24 AM

I'm laid down in the back of the Expedition and my wife is driving us through the Florida darkness.  By daylight we'll arrive at our house.  It's been almost three months since we've been there.  This week kicks off summer vacations for us.  We'll be headed to Tampa in a few days for some beach and amusement park fun with friends.  The one mores continue to drop.  One more Easter, one more Fourth of July, one more Christmas, one more Mardi Gras. 
I can't imagine what it will be like having an open schedule.  No more torture on the body trying to squeeze every moment out of time off.  We just turned the dog leg from the panhandle to the peninsula.  We'd been eating up longitude headed east.  Now we're dropping latitude headed south.  Almost to the Suwannee River now.  I hope to paddle that entire river in coming years along with so.many more.  Hopefully we get out on the Rainbow River or Crystal River this week.  Just checking in.  Hope all of you are doing good.

Certainly sounds better than the snow that was falling this morning.  Summer comes damned early down there.  Enjoy your break.

The pool is clean and 76 degrees.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 19, 2022, 07:52:58 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on April 18, 2022, 09:01:02 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 18, 2022, 12:19:24 AM

I'm laid down in the back of the Expedition and my wife is driving us through the Florida darkness.  By daylight we'll arrive at our house.  It's been almost three months since we've been there.  This week kicks off summer vacations for us.  We'll be headed to Tampa in a few days for some beach and amusement park fun with friends.  The one mores continue to drop.  One more Easter, one more Fourth of July, one more Christmas, one more Mardi Gras. 
I can't imagine what it will be like having an open schedule.  No more torture on the body trying to squeeze every moment out of time off.  We just turned the dog leg from the panhandle to the peninsula.  We'd been eating up longitude headed east.  Now we're dropping latitude headed south.  Almost to the Suwannee River now.  I hope to paddle that entire river in coming years along with so.many more.  Hopefully we get out on the Rainbow River or Crystal River this week.  Just checking in.  Hope all of you are doing good.

Go have a 60 oz margarita for me @ Marguerita Grill in Homosassa!

We've been there.  Most likely headed to Crumps for some live music Saturday.  Thursday and Friday we'll be in Tampa with friends.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: RedefinedHappiness on April 19, 2022, 09:00:53 PM

Posting to follow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Malossi792 on April 20, 2022, 02:25:55 AM

Quote from: RedefinedHappiness on April 19, 2022, 09:00:53 PM

Posting to follow.

Didn't know one could do that here.
I lurk here all the time, love the intelligent conversation, the perspective, the calmness that comes through.
I have a lot of respect for you folks!
Hope to join you one day, might need a decade or two of great income, savings rate and ROI combined though :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on April 20, 2022, 04:17:12 AM

Today is our last day at Disney with the kids. Boy, if you ever need a way to just burn money, this is the place to do it. I’ve had to remind myself several times that this is why we worked and saved so much and that it’s ok to enjoy a week of massive spending.
We’ve had a good time though, and made a few memories.
Note to self- buy more Disney stock

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: RedefinedHappiness on April 20, 2022, 10:54:04 AM

Quote from: Malossi792 on April 20, 2022, 02:25:55 AM

Quote from: RedefinedHappiness on April 19, 2022, 09:00:53 PM

Posting to follow.

Didn't know one could do that here.
I lurk here all the time, love the intelligent conversation, the perspective, the calmness that comes through.
I have a lot of respect for you folks!
Hope to join you one day, might need a decade or two of great income, savings rate and ROI combined though :)

Agreed.  Didn't have time to post much previously.  Similar to you, I appreciate hearing from people in a similar situation. Have always seen this thread and never read it.  Stumbled upon it the other day and was helpful to hear perspectives of OMY syndrome, uncertainty, fire happiness and everything in between.  Typed PTF to make sure I wouldn't forget to track this thread more often.

I for one have a mental block that I'm working on.  Hopefully this thread will give me perspective and will be the start of having confidence and direction to the RE in FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 20, 2022, 11:48:58 AM

Trying to settle into the new job.  I expected that I would miss the competency and responsiveness of big company IT department. Boy, was I right. This is kind of a shitshow. But I’ll figure it out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 20, 2022, 08:56:24 PM

My condo closes tomorrow.  California is weird.  I signed everything on Monday.  Apparently closing is the title companies actually physically filling stuff at the courthouse.  I have no clue when tomorrow it will be done and I could get keys.  Which means I get keys on Friday since I will be at work in the city all day tomorrow.  I didn’t want to get ahead of myself, so I guess I should start looking into people to actually move me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 20, 2022, 09:46:11 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on April 20, 2022, 08:56:24 PM

My condo closes tomorrow.  California is weird.  I signed everything on Monday.  Apparently closing is the title companies actually physically filling stuff at the courthouse.  I have no clue when tomorrow it will be done and I could get keys.  Which means I get keys on Friday since I will be at work in the city all day tomorrow.  I didn’t want to get ahead of myself, so I guess I should start looking into people to actually move me.

It's up to the seller (or the financing compan) as to whether you can have the keys at signing or whether you have to wait until the papers are filed at the courthouse.

Waiting until the papers are filed is safer from the seller's point of view.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 21, 2022, 07:19:41 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 20, 2022, 09:46:11 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on April 20, 2022, 08:56:24 PM

My condo closes tomorrow.  California is weird.  I signed everything on Monday.  Apparently closing is the title companies actually physically filling stuff at the courthouse.  I have no clue when tomorrow it will be done and I could get keys.  Which means I get keys on Friday since I will be at work in the city all day tomorrow.  I didn’t want to get ahead of myself, so I guess I should start looking into people to actually move me.

It's up to the seller (or the financing compan) as to whether you can have the keys at signing or whether you have to wait until the papers are filed at the courthouse.

Waiting until the papers are filed is safer from the seller's point of view.

Never had it happen anywhere but at signing.  Of course I’ve always signed with the seller in a room on the day of closing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 21, 2022, 07:58:23 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on April 21, 2022, 07:19:41 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 20, 2022, 09:46:11 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on April 20, 2022, 08:56:24 PM

My condo closes tomorrow.  California is weird.  I signed everything on Monday.  Apparently closing is the title companies actually physically filling stuff at the courthouse.  I have no clue when tomorrow it will be done and I could get keys.  Which means I get keys on Friday since I will be at work in the city all day tomorrow.  I didn’t want to get ahead of myself, so I guess I should start looking into people to actually move me.

It's up to the seller (or the financing compan) as to whether you can have the keys at signing or whether you have to wait until the papers are filed at the courthouse.

Waiting until the papers are filed is safer from the seller's point of view.

Never had it happen anywhere but at signing.  Of course I’ve always signed with the seller in a room on the day of closing.

It's the seller's choice.  Bought a number of homes before I encountered this situation, so I asked the realtor about it.

The transfer of ownership isn't technically official until the papers are filed.    If the buyers were to hurt themselves on the property before the papers are filed, who has the position of legal jeopardy?   The official owners of the property according to public record, that's who.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 22, 2022, 07:42:49 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 21, 2022, 07:58:23 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on April 21, 2022, 07:19:41 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 20, 2022, 09:46:11 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on April 20, 2022, 08:56:24 PM

My condo closes tomorrow.  California is weird.  I signed everything on Monday.  Apparently closing is the title companies actually physically filling stuff at the courthouse.  I have no clue when tomorrow it will be done and I could get keys.  Which means I get keys on Friday since I will be at work in the city all day tomorrow.  I didn’t want to get ahead of myself, so I guess I should start looking into people to actually move me.

It's up to the seller (or the financing compan) as to whether you can have the keys at signing or whether you have to wait until the papers are filed at the courthouse.

Waiting until the papers are filed is safer from the seller's point of view.

Never had it happen anywhere but at signing.  Of course I’ve always signed with the seller in a room on the day of closing.

It's the seller's choice.  Bought a number of homes before I encountered this situation, so I asked the realtor about it.

The transfer of ownership isn't technically official until the papers are filed.    If the buyers were to hurt themselves on the property before the papers are filed, who has the position of legal jeopardy?   The official owners of the property according to public record, that's who.

It varies by state.  It maybe seeker choice where you have transacted.  It’s has never been in the previous states I’ve lived in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: FireLane on April 25, 2022, 04:41:27 PM

Quote from: Malossi792 on April 20, 2022, 02:25:55 AM

Quote from: RedefinedHappiness on April 19, 2022, 09:00:53 PM

Posting to follow.

Didn't know one could do that here.
I lurk here all the time, love the intelligent conversation, the perspective, the calmness that comes through.
I have a lot of respect for you folks!
Hope to join you one day, might need a decade or two of great income, savings rate and ROI combined though :)

Yeah, I say lurkers and PTFers welcome! This thread isn't a private club with a bouncer at the door. More like a fireside chat where everyone's invited to pull up a chair and listen in on the conversation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 25, 2022, 04:46:14 PM

Quote from: FireLane on April 25, 2022, 04:41:27 PM

Quote from: Malossi792 on April 20, 2022, 02:25:55 AM

Quote from: RedefinedHappiness on April 19, 2022, 09:00:53 PM

Posting to follow.

Didn't know one could do that here.
I lurk here all the time, love the intelligent conversation, the perspective, the calmness that comes through.
I have a lot of respect for you folks!
Hope to join you one day, might need a decade or two of great income, savings rate and ROI combined though :)

Yeah, I say lurkers and PTFers welcome! This thread isn't a private club with a bouncer at the door. More like a fireside chat where everyone's invited to pull up a chair and listen in on the conversation.

So who was that person that I submitted 5 years of tax returns and all of my investment details to???

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 25, 2022, 09:42:15 PM

Didn’t you know? You don’t have to do that until you formally declare your intentions to be part of this group… er, I mean until after we accept you… er, I mean until after the audits are complete… er, unless you decide not to!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on April 28, 2022, 09:25:35 AM

I don't know about you guys, but I think our portfolio is going to finish April 2022 about the same spot it was in April 2021. Giving up all of last year's gains.
I new that "beyond" number was too good to be true at the end of 2021. I'm slightly disappointed, but mostly......"meh" (as my teen would say). Curious to see what is next.

I have three more weeks at my part time contract gig with former employer. None of this market volatility is making me consider trying to stay and do another project for them. It's also not making me want to try and find another client. I think I'll just relax and enjoy summer with the kids, maybe try not to spend too much. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 28, 2022, 01:18:39 PM

I’m not exactly sure how to value pre IPO shares of DH’s company. I mean I have the appraisal value and all, but I don’t want to count any chickens before they hatch. We are back to where we were last summer in regular investment accounts, but we pulled a bunch out for property and new company investments. I will waive my auditor wand tomorrow when I do bills for month end and call it “reasonable estimates” that do not have an overall material impact on our numbers. Still in the middle of this race, retired, and kinda bored. Not bored enough to work though. I have been day laboring in my yard saving hundreds on landscapers. Ha!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on April 28, 2022, 03:31:35 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on April 28, 2022, 09:25:35 AM

I don't know about you guys, but I think our portfolio is going to finish April 2022 about the same spot it was in April 2021. Giving up all of last year's gains.
I new that "beyond" number was too good to be true at the end of 2021. I'm slightly disappointed, but mostly......"meh" (as my teen would say). Curious to see what is next.

I have three more weeks at my part time contract gig with former employer. None of this market volatility is making me consider trying to stay and do another project for them. It's also not making me want to try and find another client. I think I'll just relax and enjoy summer with the kids, maybe try not to spend too much. :)

I think we will be seeing quite a few more reports like this over the next few weeks.  Hopefully nobody will fall out of the club here!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 28, 2022, 05:41:05 PM

We might, then if they are accumulating they will buy more stocks and if in retirement will roll some bond funds into stocks. Maybe some will do nothing.

Either way its a temporary setback that ends at a higher rung up the ladder than before. Tragic..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on April 28, 2022, 05:44:29 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on April 28, 2022, 03:31:35 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on April 28, 2022, 09:25:35 AM

I don't know about you guys, but I think our portfolio is going to finish April 2022 about the same spot it was in April 2021. Giving up all of last year's gains.
I new that "beyond" number was too good to be true at the end of 2021. I'm slightly disappointed, but mostly......"meh" (as my teen would say). Curious to see what is next.

I have three more weeks at my part time contract gig with former employer. None of this market volatility is making me consider trying to stay and do another project for them. It's also not making me want to try and find another client. I think I'll just relax and enjoy summer with the kids, maybe try not to spend too much. :)

I think we will be seeing quite a few more reports like this over the next few weeks.  Hopefully nobody will fall out of the club here!

We have another month before we do our snapshot. Anything can happen in a month.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on April 28, 2022, 06:17:07 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 28, 2022, 05:41:05 PM

We might, then if they are accumulating they will buy more stocks and if in retirement will roll some bond funds into stocks. Maybe some will do nothing.

Either way its a temporary setback that ends at a higher rung up the ladder than before. Tragic..:)

Love it!! This is why I have 5% sitting in cash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2KidFIRE on April 29, 2022, 08:57:51 AM

Quote from: couponvan on April 28, 2022, 01:18:39 PM

I’m not exactly sure how to value pre IPO shares of DH’s company. I mean I have the appraisal value and all, but I don’t want to count any chickens before they hatch...

I've seen different approaches to this discussed.  If he paid for the shares then the easiest way to value them would just be to use the price paid, even if they are likely worth more.

If he was instead granted the shares then I think the safest bet is to value them at what you could get for them.  If you can't sell them at all, value at $0.  If there is a way to transfer/sell them to others, identify what others have already paid for other people's shares and value at that amount.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 29, 2022, 01:07:40 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 28, 2022, 05:41:05 PM

We might, then if they are accumulating they will buy more stocks and if in retirement will roll some bond funds into stocks. Maybe some will do nothing.

Either way its a temporary setback that ends at a higher rung up the ladder than before. Tragic..:)

I've got 460 days till my official retirement date.  I'll actually be gone with PTO use in about 54 weeks.  I liked seeing the portfolio above 3M, but we can look at this as last minute bargain shopping.   Pension and 401K will continue till August 2023.  The big reset button has been pushed.  It will be interesting to see how it all falls out.  We're all in a great position to ride this out and probably come out on top. 
Cheers

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rockstache on April 30, 2022, 12:05:15 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2022, 07:48:13 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 18, 2022, 10:57:47 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 18, 2022, 12:19:24 AM

I'm laid down in the back of the Expedition and my wife is driving us through the Florida darkness.  By daylight we'll arrive at our house.  It's been almost three months since we've been there.  This week kicks off summer vacations for us.  We'll be headed to Tampa in a few days for some beach and amusement park fun with friends.  The one mores continue to drop.  One more Easter, one more Fourth of July, one more Christmas, one more Mardi Gras. 
I can't imagine what it will be like having an open schedule.  No more torture on the body trying to squeeze every moment out of time off.  We just turned the dog leg from the panhandle to the peninsula.  We'd been eating up longitude headed east.  Now we're dropping latitude headed south.  Almost to the Suwannee River now.  I hope to paddle that entire river in coming years along with so.many more.  Hopefully we get out on the Rainbow River or Crystal River this week.  Just checking in.  Hope all of you are doing good.

Certainly sounds better than the snow that was falling this morning.  Summer comes damned early down there.  Enjoy your break.

The pool is clean and 76 degrees.

76F is far too cold!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 30, 2022, 04:57:35 PM

Agreed. Unless it’s 90 degrees out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on April 30, 2022, 11:54:03 PM

Quote from: rockstache on April 30, 2022, 12:05:15 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2022, 07:48:13 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 18, 2022, 10:57:47 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 18, 2022, 12:19:24 AM

I'm laid down in the back of the Expedition and my wife is driving us through the Florida darkness.  By daylight we'll arrive at our house.  It's been almost three months since we've been there.  This week kicks off summer vacations for us.  We'll be headed to Tampa in a few days for some beach and amusement park fun with friends.  The one mores continue to drop.  One more Easter, one more Fourth of July, one more Christmas, one more Mardi Gras. 
I can't imagine what it will be like having an open schedule.  No more torture on the body trying to squeeze every moment out of time off.  We just turned the dog leg from the panhandle to the peninsula.  We'd been eating up longitude headed east.  Now we're dropping latitude headed south.  Almost to the Suwannee River now.  I hope to paddle that entire river in coming years along with so.many more.  Hopefully we get out on the Rainbow River or Crystal River this week.  Just checking in.  Hope all of you are doing good.

Certainly sounds better than the snow that was falling this morning.  Summer comes damned early down there.  Enjoy your break.

The pool is clean and 76 degrees.

76F is far too cold!

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 30, 2022, 04:57:35 PM

Agreed. Unless it’s 90 degrees out.

Edit, fatfingered the Save, Preview buttons

I would suggest that 76F pool at 90+F will feel much too "crisp and refreshing".

76F pool is my old apartment's Maximum temperature.  It is my minimum reasonable temperature.
My pool ranges from 72F to 94F (118F max air temperature that day, no typo or exaggeration).

Pleasant temp is in the upper part of the Olympic pool range.  79 [+- 2]F   degrees, plus or minus one degree,  or 25° to 28° Celsius )

Some people feel differently https://www.outdoorswimmingsociety.com/cold-water-feels-temperature-guide/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 01, 2022, 06:41:57 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on April 30, 2022, 11:54:03 PM

Quote from: rockstache on April 30, 2022, 12:05:15 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2022, 07:48:13 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 18, 2022, 10:57:47 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 18, 2022, 12:19:24 AM

I'm laid down in the back of the Expedition and my wife is driving us through the Florida darkness.  By daylight we'll arrive at our house.  It's been almost three months since we've been there.  This week kicks off summer vacations for us.  We'll be headed to Tampa in a few days for some beach and amusement park fun with friends.  The one mores continue to drop.  One more Easter, one more Fourth of July, one more Christmas, one more Mardi Gras. 
I can't imagine what it will be like having an open schedule.  No more torture on the body trying to squeeze every moment out of time off.  We just turned the dog leg from the panhandle to the peninsula.  We'd been eating up longitude headed east.  Now we're dropping latitude headed south.  Almost to the Suwannee River now.  I hope to paddle that entire river in coming years along with so.many more.  Hopefully we get out on the Rainbow River or Crystal River this week.  Just checking in.  Hope all of you are doing good.

Certainly sounds better than the snow that was falling this morning.  Summer comes damned early down there.  Enjoy your break.

The pool is clean and 76 degrees.

76F is far too cold!

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 30, 2022, 04:57:35 PM

Agreed. Unless it’s 90 degrees out.

Edit, fatfingered the Save, Preview buttons

I would suggest that 76F pool at 90+F will feel much too "crisp and refreshing".

76F pool is my old apartment's Maximum temperature.  It is my minimum reasonable temperature.
My pool ranges from 72F to 94F (118F max air temperature that day, no typo or exaggeration).

Pleasant temp is in the upper part of the Olympic pool range.  79 [+- 2]F   degrees, plus or minus one degree,  or 25° to 28° Celsius )

Some people feel differently https://www.outdoorswimmingsociety.com/cold-water-feels-temperature-guide/

I grew up swimming in Lake Superior on what we considered warm Summer days 80F (27C). The water temperature of the lake averages 46F (8C) but in Summer it could be up to 60F (16C).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rockstache on May 01, 2022, 09:04:44 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 01, 2022, 06:41:57 AM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on April 30, 2022, 11:54:03 PM

Quote from: rockstache on April 30, 2022, 12:05:15 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 19, 2022, 07:48:13 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 18, 2022, 10:57:47 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 18, 2022, 12:19:24 AM

I'm laid down in the back of the Expedition and my wife is driving us through the Florida darkness.  By daylight we'll arrive at our house.  It's been almost three months since we've been there.  This week kicks off summer vacations for us.  We'll be headed to Tampa in a few days for some beach and amusement park fun with friends.  The one mores continue to drop.  One more Easter, one more Fourth of July, one more Christmas, one more Mardi Gras. 
I can't imagine what it will be like having an open schedule.  No more torture on the body trying to squeeze every moment out of time off.  We just turned the dog leg from the panhandle to the peninsula.  We'd been eating up longitude headed east.  Now we're dropping latitude headed south.  Almost to the Suwannee River now.  I hope to paddle that entire river in coming years along with so.many more.  Hopefully we get out on the Rainbow River or Crystal River this week.  Just checking in.  Hope all of you are doing good.

Certainly sounds better than the snow that was falling this morning.  Summer comes damned early down there.  Enjoy your break.

The pool is clean and 76 degrees.

76F is far too cold!

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on April 30, 2022, 04:57:35 PM

Agreed. Unless it’s 90 degrees out.

Edit, fatfingered the Save, Preview buttons

I would suggest that 76F pool at 90+F will feel much too "crisp and refreshing".

76F pool is my old apartment's Maximum temperature.  It is my minimum reasonable temperature.
My pool ranges from 72F to 94F (118F max air temperature that day, no typo or exaggeration).

Pleasant temp is in the upper part of the Olympic pool range.  79 [+- 2]F   degrees, plus or minus one degree,  or 25° to 28° Celsius )

Some people feel differently https://www.outdoorswimmingsociety.com/cold-water-feels-temperature-guide/

I grew up swimming in Lake Superior on what we considered warm Summer days 80F (27C). The water temperature of the lake averages 46F (8C) but in Summer it could be up to 60F (16C).

I grew up similarly swimming in the New England ocean and turning blue while swimming. As an adult that no longer appeals (both swimming in the ocean and swimming in the cold). I think 82F is about the right pool temp for me. But those who swim in the lower temps have my respect and I’ll hold your towel.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: fuzzy math on May 01, 2022, 10:33:05 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on April 01, 2022, 09:38:17 PM

Heck, I propped up my NW with fuzzy math based on having a pension plus home equity to get in this thread.

Glad to have been of assistance :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 01, 2022, 10:37:01 AM

Quote from: fuzzy math on May 01, 2022, 10:33:05 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on April 01, 2022, 09:38:17 PM

Heck, I propped up my NW with fuzzy math based on having a pension plus home equity to get in this thread.

Glad to have been of assistance :)

Helpful and funny.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on May 01, 2022, 01:12:15 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 29, 2022, 01:07:40 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 28, 2022, 05:41:05 PM

We might, then if they are accumulating they will buy more stocks and if in retirement will roll some bond funds into stocks. Maybe some will do nothing.

Either way its a temporary setback that ends at a higher rung up the ladder than before. Tragic..:)

I've got 460 days till my official retirement date.  I'll actually be gone with PTO use in about 54 weeks.  I liked seeing the portfolio above 3M, but we can look at this as last minute bargain shopping.   Pension and 401K will continue till August 2023.  The big reset button has been pushed.  It will be interesting to see how it all falls out.  We're all in a great position to ride this out and probably come out on top. 
Cheers

Agree with you.  I look at 2022 as a year to buy into the stock market at reasonable levels.  Unfortunately I did not have much cash on the sidelines, but have been using the opportunity to continue to just put a few more chips on the table on dips in the market.  I had been looking at 4200 S&P as that level (down roughly 10% from beginning of year), but now I'm reassessing since we're approaching 4100.  That, combined with 401k, etc., is at least allowing me to average in.

Just did my latest spreadsheet "cleanse" to update to end of April values.....deep breath.....then exhale -- still "roughly" on track.  I do think I preferred when the market was going up 15-20% per year, though.  Anyone agree with me on that??  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: on the road on May 02, 2022, 09:14:56 AM

I may be living between two race threads for a little while...

Liquid net worth

      2020       2021       2022
Jan              $1,428K    $1,979K
Feb     $984K    $1,463K    $1,967K
Mar     $883K    $1,501K    $1,991K
Apr     $721K    $1,720K    $2,111K
May   $1,092K    $1,793K    $1,906K
Jun              $1,828K
Jul              $1,841K
Aug   $1,217K    $1,860K
Sep   $1,260K    $1,906K
Oct   $1,265K    $1,866K
Nov   $1,253K    $1,951K
Dec   $1,375K    $1,911K

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 02, 2022, 11:22:17 AM

Quote from: on the road on May 02, 2022, 09:14:56 AM

I may be living between two race threads for a little while...

Liquid net worth

      2020       2021       2022
Jan              $1,428K    $1,979K
Feb     $984K    $1,463K    $1,967K
Mar     $883K    $1,501K    $1,991K
Apr     $721K    $1,720K    $2,111K
May   $1,092K    $1,793K    $1,906K
Jun              $1,828K
Jul              $1,841K
Aug   $1,217K    $1,860K
Sep   $1,260K    $1,906K
Oct   $1,265K    $1,866K
Nov   $1,253K    $1,951K
Dec   $1,375K    $1,911K

I can feel the frustration in this post..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 02, 2022, 11:45:42 AM

Down $478k or 11.9% from Dec 2021.
Trying to decide if we should still move forward with a lower level remodel or if this is the time you wait on projects like that?

or does it even matter??? remembering my conversation with Fidelity last fall when they said nothing really matters at this level.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 02, 2022, 12:52:15 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 02, 2022, 11:45:42 AM

Down $478k or 11.9% from Dec 2021.
Trying to decide if we should still move forward with a lower level remodel or if this is the time you wait on projects like that?

or does it even matter??? remembering my conversation with Fidelity last fall when they said nothing really matters at this level.

Not to be a party pooper, but I'd question your Fidelity Advisor's advice.  When the markets are breaking down and if you begin to feel nervous, it's only 'normal' to take a pause and not commit to a large discretionary expense.  You might get a better price if the housing market cools off with rates continuing to go up, and you might want to adjust the scale of the outlay or scope of the project if we truly are headed for a significant correction. 

Maybe this market blip passes and you move ahead with the remodel in a month or so, but I go back to October of 2008 when I was on the most expensive vacation of my life (a Mediterranean cruise) and the market was falling apart...  Still had fun, but thank goodness I had steady income...  we also had a lot of cash because we needed to buy a home since our expat assignment was coming to an end.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 02, 2022, 01:12:06 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 02, 2022, 12:52:15 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 02, 2022, 11:45:42 AM

Down $478k or 11.9% from Dec 2021.
Trying to decide if we should still move forward with a lower level remodel or if this is the time you wait on projects like that?

or does it even matter??? remembering my conversation with Fidelity last fall when they said nothing really matters at this level.

Not to be a party pooper, but I'd question your Fidelity Advisor's advice.  When the markets are breaking down and if you begin to feel nervous, it's only 'normal' to take a pause and not commit to a large discretionary expense.  You might get a better price if the housing market cools off with rates continuing to go up, and you might want to adjust the scale of the outlay or scope of the project if we truly are headed for a significant correction. 

Maybe this market blip passes and you move ahead with the remodel in a month or so, but I go back to October of 2008 when I was on the most expensive vacation of my life (a Mediterranean cruise) and the market was falling apart...  Still had fun, but thank goodness I had steady income...  we also had a lot of cash because we needed to buy a home since our expat assignment was coming to an end.

11.9% loss is $478K.

Do the math.  They've still got well over $4M.  (I'm assuming stocks and bonds and such, not real estate values.)

If so, it would have to be one hell of a remodel to make a difference.   Or their spending would have to be really high on top of that -- neither of which are consistent with that large an amount of investable assets that weren't inherited or won in a lottery...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 02, 2022, 01:19:38 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 02, 2022, 11:45:42 AM

Down $478k or 11.9% from Dec 2021.
Trying to decide if we should still move forward with a lower level remodel or if this is the time you wait on projects like that?

or does it even matter??? remembering my conversation with Fidelity last fall when they said nothing really matters at this level.

I'd wait out the remodel till the recession gets imbedded.  You may get labor and materials at a more reasonable cost later this year.  I'd continue to vacation and do family stuff.   Y'all still have a ton of capital, so the risk of spending too much on the remodel is likely low . 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 02, 2022, 01:20:42 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 02, 2022, 01:12:06 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 02, 2022, 12:52:15 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 02, 2022, 11:45:42 AM

Down $478k or 11.9% from Dec 2021.
Trying to decide if we should still move forward with a lower level remodel or if this is the time you wait on projects like that?

or does it even matter??? remembering my conversation with Fidelity last fall when they said nothing really matters at this level.

Not to be a party pooper, but I'd question your Fidelity Advisor's advice.  When the markets are breaking down and if you begin to feel nervous, it's only 'normal' to take a pause and not commit to a large discretionary expense.  You might get a better price if the housing market cools off with rates continuing to go up, and you might want to adjust the scale of the outlay or scope of the project if we truly are headed for a significant correction. 

Maybe this market blip passes and you move ahead with the remodel in a month or so, but I go back to October of 2008 when I was on the most expensive vacation of my life (a Mediterranean cruise) and the market was falling apart...  Still had fun, but thank goodness I had steady income...  we also had a lot of cash because we needed to buy a home since our expat assignment was coming to an end.

11.9% loss is $478K.

Do the math.  They've still got well over $4M.  (I'm assuming stocks and bonds and such, not real estate values.)

If so, it would have to be one hell of a remodel to make a difference.   Or their spending would have to be really high on top of that -- neither of which are consistent with that large an amount of investable assets that weren't inherited or won in a lottery...

Well scale is everything right?

I mean two years ago our WR was 0.69% and last year we bought a new SUV for $35k.. Now at a NW of over $4M who cares?

Now if the remodel is $250k (quite plausible) then hmm, maybe not right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 02, 2022, 01:55:51 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 02, 2022, 01:20:42 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 02, 2022, 01:12:06 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 02, 2022, 12:52:15 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 02, 2022, 11:45:42 AM

Down $478k or 11.9% from Dec 2021.
Trying to decide if we should still move forward with a lower level remodel or if this is the time you wait on projects like that?

or does it even matter??? remembering my conversation with Fidelity last fall when they said nothing really matters at this level.

Not to be a party pooper, but I'd question your Fidelity Advisor's advice.  When the markets are breaking down and if you begin to feel nervous, it's only 'normal' to take a pause and not commit to a large discretionary expense.  You might get a better price if the housing market cools off with rates continuing to go up, and you might want to adjust the scale of the outlay or scope of the project if we truly are headed for a significant correction. 

Maybe this market blip passes and you move ahead with the remodel in a month or so, but I go back to October of 2008 when I was on the most expensive vacation of my life (a Mediterranean cruise) and the market was falling apart...  Still had fun, but thank goodness I had steady income...  we also had a lot of cash because we needed to buy a home since our expat assignment was coming to an end.

11.9% loss is $478K.

Do the math.  They've still got well over $4M.  (I'm assuming stocks and bonds and such, not real estate values.)

If so, it would have to be one hell of a remodel to make a difference.   Or their spending would have to be really high on top of that -- neither of which are consistent with that large an amount of investable assets that weren't inherited or won in a lottery...

Well scale is everything right?

I mean two years ago our WR was 0.69% and last year we bought a new SUV for $35k.. Now at a NW of over $4M who cares?

Now if the remodel is $250k (quite plausible) then hmm, maybe not right now.

Of course, this is all easy to say when you're discussing other people's money :)

Up to Beanie what she decides to do.  And ultimately, my $15k family vacation in 2008 is now great memories and was hardly a blip in our finances.

But yeah, how much of a remodel outlay are we talking here?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on May 02, 2022, 02:35:28 PM

I think it’s funny @BeanCounter it auto corrected to bra counter. Ok-do the remodel. If you need to, you have a very marketable skill, and in a worst case, the accountants are almost always one of the last to go.
I was sad on our decline last month, but since we have less invested, we lost less.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 02, 2022, 04:27:58 PM

 Well! Your responses really make me realize that this is actually more of an emotional decision and not just math.
The math-
 Sitting at $3.5 invested. Home equity is about $170k but we never count it because we have to live somewhere. I think we still have about $170k left on our mortgage but we don't pay it down because it's 2.15% interest.
Our withdrawal rate while we still have kids home is about 3.1%-3.5% currently but will increase slightly as tuition increases.
For a variety of reasons only known to him, DH is still working. If something were to happen to his job though I think he'd be done. But for now we still have that income and it brings our withdrawal rate down to like 0.06%.

The emotional stuff-
 - The lower level remodel (contractors don't like to use the term basement, but that's what it is. Except it walks out.) will likely be in the $20k-$40k range (depending on which spouse wins)
It is a purely aesthetic job as everything existing is neat, clean and functional. It's just not exactly what we want. And so this is where I get hung up. It's not something that really needs to be done. Would the teens enjoy something more modern? Maybe. Does it matter? Probably not.

But after I typed my first message I looked at my earnings after taxes from my contract work and I've already paid for the remodel and the Disney trip with that revenue. So I guess it doesn't matter if we make a totally frivolous purchase of an unnecessary remodel.

So it's not a big deal really. It's not a lot of money when compared to NW. But because we don't spend a lot on our day to day expenses it feels really spendy. If that makes any sense? But we also live in a much cheaper home than we could afford so that we could make it all perfect.

I think this is what the Fidelity guy was trying to tell me- Nobody in your shoes spends this much time thinking about $20k. Ugh.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 02, 2022, 04:39:15 PM

@BeanCounter I think the emotional part might come from being frugal for many years. Its like you have one really well developed skill.. I.e NOT spending money/saving because we are poor right?

This works great until your not poor then it results in conflict. I mean we spent $35k on a stupid car that we didn't even need, yeah the $$ are a drop in the bucket but its still more money than I spent on my first HOUSE..on a thing that loses value hand over fist no less.

Inner bag lady/man syndrome.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 02, 2022, 06:29:11 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 02, 2022, 04:27:58 PM

Well! Your responses really make me realize that this is actually more of an emotional decision and not just math.
The math-
 Sitting at $3.5 invested. Home equity is about $170k but we never count it because we have to live somewhere. I think we still have about $170k left on our mortgage but we don't pay it down because it's 2.15% interest.
Our withdrawal rate while we still have kids home is about 3.1%-3.5% currently but will increase slightly as tuition increases.
For a variety of reasons only known to him, DH is still working. If something were to happen to his job though I think he'd be done. But for now we still have that income and it brings our withdrawal rate down to like 0.06%.

The emotional stuff-
 - The lower level remodel (contractors don't like to use the term basement, but that's what it is. Except it walks out.) will likely be in the $20k-$40k range (depending on which spouse wins)
It is a purely aesthetic job as everything existing is neat, clean and functional. It's just not exactly what we want. And so this is where I get hung up. It's not something that really needs to be done. Would the teens enjoy something more modern? Maybe. Does it matter? Probably not.

But after I typed my first message I looked at my earnings after taxes from my contract work and I've already paid for the remodel and the Disney trip with that revenue. So I guess it doesn't matter if we make a totally frivolous purchase of an unnecessary remodel.

So it's not a big deal really. It's not a lot of money when compared to NW. But because we don't spend a lot on our day to day expenses it feels really spendy. If that makes any sense? But we also live in a much cheaper home than we could afford so that we could make it all perfect.

I think this is what the Fidelity guy was trying to tell me- Nobody in your shoes spends this much time thinking about $20k. Ugh.

Ah, well that does help fill in the picture.  When you were talking about a $478k paper loss then a remodel, I somehow conflated the two numbers to be somewhat in the same ballpark, like at least a six digit outlay.  $20 - 40k is less than a tiny fluctuation in daily NW, and in these volatile times you will be up or down more than that depending on the hour of the day.

With all that said, I still understand how unsettling it feels to become unmoored from what used to be significant spending decisions.  I guess one way to look at it is the fact that you still have an income, so no time better than now to go for it...

Out of interest, I thought about the numbers for my vacation again - the markets had taken us from $1M at the beginning of the year down to $700k at the time of the cruise, so $15k would be equivalent to $75k at your 3.5M NW...  if the markets continue to fall, the $75k threshold will continue to fall, but still $40k is ~50% away...

Sounds much more like an emotional block to find your peace with, but I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.  You are not alone, loads of folks in this cohort with negligible SWR's...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Jesstache on May 02, 2022, 09:24:56 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 02, 2022, 04:27:58 PM

Well! Your responses really make me realize that this is actually more of an emotional decision and not just math.
The math-
 Sitting at $3.5 invested. Home equity is about $170k but we never count it because we have to live somewhere. I think we still have about $170k left on our mortgage but we don't pay it down because it's 2.15% interest.
Our withdrawal rate while we still have kids home is about 3.1%-3.5% currently but will increase slightly as tuition increases.
For a variety of reasons only known to him, DH is still working. If something were to happen to his job though I think he'd be done. But for now we still have that income and it brings our withdrawal rate down to like 0.06%.

The emotional stuff-
 - The lower level remodel (contractors don't like to use the term basement, but that's what it is. Except it walks out.) will likely be in the $20k-$40k range (depending on which spouse wins)
It is a purely aesthetic job as everything existing is neat, clean and functional. It's just not exactly what we want. And so this is where I get hung up. It's not something that really needs to be done. Would the teens enjoy something more modern? Maybe. Does it matter? Probably not.

But after I typed my first message I looked at my earnings after taxes from my contract work and I've already paid for the remodel and the Disney trip with that revenue. So I guess it doesn't matter if we make a totally frivolous purchase of an unnecessary remodel.

So it's not a big deal really. It's not a lot of money when compared to NW. But because we don't spend a lot on our day to day expenses it feels really spendy. If that makes any sense? But we also live in a much cheaper home than we could afford so that we could make it all perfect.

I think this is what the Fidelity guy was trying to tell me- Nobody in your shoes spends this much time thinking about $20k. Ugh.

I'd highly recommend listening to Ramit Sethi's I Will Teach You To Be Rich podcast for help reconciling feelings like these.  In fact, the latest episode titled, "We're Worth $5 million but my wife nearly canceled our trip to save $200" is such a good one and completely relevant to a lot of us fruGALS (and guys) in this thread but many others are great also.  We're approaching the "... and beyond" territory and likely well into it if I could take the recent run-up in real estate prices seriously and I also struggle with the same thoughts and feelings as you and the wife in the podcast episode I mentioned... btw I'm 38!  I will say, I would never change hotels for one night out of 3 just to save $200 though... my time is worth more than that :).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 02, 2022, 11:02:07 PM

@Jesstache

I listened to the same podcast this weekend.  I'm in the process of booking multiple vacations right now. 
I'm still bargain shopping a bit.  I'll still sacrifice Oceanview rooms if it's more than $100 extra a night. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 02, 2022, 11:53:56 PM

The IRS is still sitting on an over $6k tax refund from last year.   Going to contact my congressman, brown-nosing Trumpite imbecile that he is, to see if he can light a fire under the IRS.

We won't have any farm income this year or next.  We're levelling the farmland this year to improve yields.  The sharecrop farmer will get the whole crop next year to compensate for contributing substantial cash to level the land.
We struck that deal this year before the Russian invasion of Ukraine.   I suspect grain prices will still be higher than normal next year, so the farmer got a deal.

Expenses are up this year, over and above inflation.   We're hosting a refugee artist from Ukraine in our home.   So, food costs will be up 33%.   Electrical will be up as we'll both be enameling.   And I'm picking up tools and materials for them to use if I don't already have them.

And, of course, stocks and bonds are down about $164K for the year.  We'll see whether they're still down when we need to sell some later this year.

Rents are up and we've already got enough set aside for all property taxes (even our home) plus all insurance.   So we can start drawing on rents to cover the gap caused by the farm income loss -- unless we have a major repair this year we can't postpone a year.

Discovered more accurate farmland pricing in January and so our farmland is valued at about 110% more than last year.   That was a nice surprise.  Rental houses and our home have also gone up in value, so our net worth is actually up about $493k from what we calculated at the end of last year.

We plan to maintain our $1k a month charitable giving, but we're a few months behind.   That tax return was supposed to fund over 6 month's worth of charitable giving this year.  With expenses up and income down this year, something had to give.   I don't want to sell stocks while they are down unless we have to, so I'll wait until the market goes up or the tax refund comes in.

Spent a ton of money on our hobbies last year.   Won't spend as much this year but it will still be an expensive year -- and worth every penny.  I'm slowly reconciling myself to splurging this way.

I think I've solved the enameling problems I was having so I'm about to turn out a number of pieces of jewelry and wall art.  Feels good!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 01:02:54 PM

Whoa. You guys. I listened to that podcast. Wow, was it eye opening.
She might be slightly worse than me. I'm pretty good about spending on travel, as I see it as worthwhile expense. But I couldn't bring myself to pay for an alcoholic beverage at Disney, so there is that....

It's hard to change these mindsets. Like, I won't buy a luxury car even though I want one because "we are not those kind of people, a Honda is just fine".

The part of the podcast where they do the follow up and she says she's finally getting a new phone and dumping her 6s, I looked down at my phone and gasped (still have a 6s too).

The contractor is coming by on Friday to look at the basement and work up a concept design.

I'm really appreciative of this group for understanding these things. It's not something I can talk to IRL friends or family about, but it is something that we need help navigating.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 03, 2022, 03:48:38 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 01:02:54 PM

Whoa. You guys. I listened to that podcast. Wow, was it eye opening.
She might be slightly worse than me. I'm pretty good about spending on travel, as I see it as worthwhile expense. But I couldn't bring myself to pay for an alcoholic beverage at Disney, so there is that....

It's hard to change these mindsets. Like, I won't buy a luxury car even though I want one because "we are not those kind of people, a Honda is just fine".

The part of the podcast where they do the follow up and she says she's finally getting a new phone and dumping her 6s, I looked down at my phone and gasped (still have a 6s too).

The contractor is coming by on Friday to look at the basement and work up a concept design.

I'm really appreciative of this group for understanding these things. It's not something I can talk to IRL friends or family about, but it is something that we need help navigating.

Cool Beans :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 03, 2022, 05:27:37 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 01:02:54 PM

I'm really appreciative of this group for understanding these things. It's not something I can talk to IRL friends or family about, but it is something that we need help navigating.

No kidding!

I would get significantly less than zero sympathy from almost everyone on this topic. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 05:33:44 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 03, 2022, 03:48:38 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 01:02:54 PM

Whoa. You guys. I listened to that podcast. Wow, was it eye opening.
She might be slightly worse than me. I'm pretty good about spending on travel, as I see it as worthwhile expense. But I couldn't bring myself to pay for an alcoholic beverage at Disney, so there is that....

It's hard to change these mindsets. Like, I won't buy a luxury car even though I want one because "we are not those kind of people, a Honda is just fine".

The part of the podcast where they do the follow up and she says she's finally getting a new phone and dumping her 6s, I looked down at my phone and gasped (still have a 6s too).

The contractor is coming by on Friday to look at the basement and work up a concept design.

I'm really appreciative of this group for understanding these things. It's not something I can talk to IRL friends or family about, but it is something that we need help navigating.

Cool Beans :)

Haha! Today I learned that I have taken Bean counting to a whole other level. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 05:36:50 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 03, 2022, 05:27:37 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 01:02:54 PM

I'm really appreciative of this group for understanding these things. It's not something I can talk to IRL friends or family about, but it is something that we need help navigating.

No kidding!

I would get significantly less than zero sympathy from almost everyone on this topic.

Are there support groups for not being able to spend money? Maybe there should be? (But I don’t want to be in with the crazy hoarders. We are not that)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on May 03, 2022, 06:57:16 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 05:36:50 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 03, 2022, 05:27:37 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 01:02:54 PM

I'm really appreciative of this group for understanding these things. It's not something I can talk to IRL friends or family about, but it is something that we need help navigating.

No kidding!

I would get significantly less than zero sympathy from almost everyone on this topic.

Are there support groups for not being able to spend money? Maybe there should be? (But I don’t want to be in with the crazy hoarders. We are not that)

LOL - Ultimate Home Planner Group on Facebook versus Declutter 365. I belong to both, but “identity” with UHP. This was started by the Passionate Penny Pincher, who was found she is rich. You and me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 03, 2022, 08:04:39 PM

Swordguy, if your representative has poor constituent service, try your Senators.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 03, 2022, 11:24:50 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on May 03, 2022, 08:04:39 PM

Swordguy, if your representative has poor constituent service, try your Senators.

I'm hoping his staff has some capability.

He's had his head so far up Trump's ass for so long he has little sense of perspective left on the issues of the day.

One of our senators received an early briefing on how bad the covid epidemic would be.  He believed it.   So, instead of telling the public in our state (and contradict Trump), he just privately told his major campaign donors how bad it would be.  And made some stock trades on the insider information.   Lots of dead North Carolinians trace back to that deplorable dereliction of duty.

The other senator has his head firmly up Trump's ass too.

So I don't hold out a lot of hope, but it's worth a try.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 04, 2022, 02:39:10 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 01:02:54 PM

It's hard to change these mindsets. Like, I won't buy a luxury car even though I want one because "we are not those kind of people, a Honda is just fine".

I hear you :-) Last year when I was car shopping, I could have bought anything, even a Mercedes S class, with minimal impact on our finances. After a month of test drives, I was completely unimpressed by the luxury makes. I actually wound up buying a Honda CR-V because I just could not get myself to spend more than $35k on a car.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 04, 2022, 05:04:38 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 04, 2022, 02:39:10 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 01:02:54 PM

It's hard to change these mindsets. Like, I won't buy a luxury car even though I want one because "we are not those kind of people, a Honda is just fine".

I hear you :-) Last year when I was car shopping, I could have bought anything, even a Mercedes S class, with minimal impact on our finances. After a month of test drives, I was completely unimpressed by the luxury makes. I actually wound up buying a Honda CR-V because I just could not get myself to spend more than $35k on a car.

I have a 10 year old CRV! Great car!! I would really like to replace it with an RDX simply because they ride a little bit quieter, but I know when the time comes I won’t be able to write that check!! I’ll probably end up with another CRV. We do buy the fully loaded model, that should count for something- nobody needs leather seats after all!!

Remember last Jan we finally had to replace our old Accord and I came here fretting about buying new vs used. We did end up with a slightly used 2020 but only because it was the last year they made the 2T and that’s what DH really wanted.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ingrownstudentloans on May 04, 2022, 07:02:43 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on April 02, 2022, 05:11:46 PM

Joining this race after a short stint in the 1-2 race.  Focusing on continuing to double my money in as short a period of time as possible.

(tracking retirement accounts, taxable accounts and conservative equity in my rental properties, investment land and side businesses)

12/2014    $32,000
12/2016    $64,000 (24 months)
1/2018      $128,000 (25 months)
5/2019      $256,000 (16 months)
11/2020  $512,000 (19 months)
12/2021  $1,024,000 (13 months)
4/2022    $2,048,000 (4 months)
[10/2023 $4,096,000 (19 months] **TARGET**
--
4/1/2022     $2,336,219

5/1/2022     $2,398,670

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 04, 2022, 08:02:26 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 03, 2022, 11:24:50 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on May 03, 2022, 08:04:39 PM

Swordguy, if your representative has poor constituent service, try your Senators.

I'm hoping his staff has some capability.

He's had his head so far up Trump's ass for so long he has little sense of perspective left on the issues of the day.

One of our senators received an early briefing on how bad the covid epidemic would be.  He believed it.   So, instead of telling the public in our state (and contradict Trump), he just privately told his major campaign donors how bad it would be.  And made some stock trades on the insider information.   Lots of dead North Carolinians trace back to that deplorable dereliction of duty.

The other senator has his head firmly up Trump's ass too.

So I don't hold out a lot of hope, but it's worth a try.

I interned at one of my Senators office in college.  The Detroit office had a constituent services staff for the state.  (I was in a smaller city office that had a staff of 2).  Their job was literally to help people in the state with specific problems.  With that, I’m a Fed, one of my retirement newsletters is telling people that in order to get our pensions correct in a timely manner, people are having success with congressional phone calls.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 04, 2022, 08:05:48 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 04, 2022, 05:04:38 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 04, 2022, 02:39:10 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 01:02:54 PM

It's hard to change these mindsets. Like, I won't buy a luxury car even though I want one because "we are not those kind of people, a Honda is just fine".

I hear you :-) Last year when I was car shopping, I could have bought anything, even a Mercedes S class, with minimal impact on our finances. After a month of test drives, I was completely unimpressed by the luxury makes. I actually wound up buying a Honda CR-V because I just could not get myself to spend more than $35k on a car.

I have a 10 year old CRV! Great car!! I would really like to replace it with an RDX simply because they ride a little bit quieter, but I know when the time comes I won’t be able to write that check!! I’ll probably end up with another CRV. We do buy the fully loaded model, that should count for something- nobody needs leather seats after all!!

Remember last Jan we finally had to replace our old Accord and I came here fretting about buying new vs used. We did end up with a slightly used 2020 but only because it was the last year they made the 2T and that’s what DH really wanted.

That is me with Hotels.  I have stayed at very nice hotels, mainly overseas due to work.  I’m fine with business level hotels.  Give me a Courtyard or a Hilton Garden Inn vs a Ritz/Waldorf the marginal gain just doesn’t seem a good value. I’m not sure what my next car will be, my Jeep Renegade is only 6 years old, in 10 years the car space is going to look different then now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on May 04, 2022, 08:30:59 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on May 04, 2022, 08:05:48 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 04, 2022, 05:04:38 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 04, 2022, 02:39:10 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 01:02:54 PM

It's hard to change these mindsets. Like, I won't buy a luxury car even though I want one because "we are not those kind of people, a Honda is just fine".

I hear you :-) Last year when I was car shopping, I could have bought anything, even a Mercedes S class, with minimal impact on our finances. After a month of test drives, I was completely unimpressed by the luxury makes. I actually wound up buying a Honda CR-V because I just could not get myself to spend more than $35k on a car.

I have a 10 year old CRV! Great car!! I would really like to replace it with an RDX simply because they ride a little bit quieter, but I know when the time comes I won’t be able to write that check!! I’ll probably end up with another CRV. We do buy the fully loaded model, that should count for something- nobody needs leather seats after all!!

Remember last Jan we finally had to replace our old Accord and I came here fretting about buying new vs used. We did end up with a slightly used 2020 but only because it was the last year they made the 2T and that’s what DH really wanted.

That is me with Hotels.  I have stayed at very nice hotels, mainly overseas due to work.  I’m fine with business level hotels.  Give me a Courtyard or a Hilton Garden Inn vs a Ritz/Waldorf the marginal gain just doesn’t seem a good value. I’m not sure what my next car will be, my Jeep Renegade is only 6 years old, in 10 years the car space is going to look different then now.

We are all over Holiday Inn Express. DH loves the cinnamon rolls, as well as the price.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 04, 2022, 08:35:15 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 04, 2022, 02:39:10 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 01:02:54 PM

It's hard to change these mindsets. Like, I won't buy a luxury car even though I want one because "we are not those kind of people, a Honda is just fine".

I hear you :-) Last year when I was car shopping, I could have bought anything, even a Mercedes S class, with minimal impact on our finances. After a month of test drives, I was completely unimpressed by the luxury makes. I actually wound up buying a Honda CR-V because I just could not get myself to spend more than $35k on a car.

Same here.. We got a new base model AWD Passport for $35k.. This car seems outrageously decadent to us us.. It HUGE and the difference between the base model and the top end is leather seats and a shiny badge on the back.. Oh and about $15k of course.. No thanks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 04, 2022, 08:38:50 AM

Quote from: ixtap on May 04, 2022, 08:30:59 AM

We are all over Holiday Inn Express. DH loves the cinnamon rolls, as well as the price.

Same here, especially as I still have about 10 nights free on points that I earned from my business travel days..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on May 04, 2022, 08:56:02 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 04, 2022, 08:38:50 AM

Quote from: ixtap on May 04, 2022, 08:30:59 AM

We are all over Holiday Inn Express. DH loves the cinnamon rolls, as well as the price.

Same here, especially as I still have about 10 nights free on points that I earned from my business travel days..:)

We love those too. 

I'm also a big Hyatt Place/House fan with three kids.  They are one of the few chains that allow 5 people in a room.  They have the two queen beds and the sofa bed.  With 3 kids also getting free breakfast, I consider it a massive value.  The 5,000 point per night redemptions making hotel rooms effectively $50-75/night with Chase UR points were awesome.  (Those valuations are changing this year, and I am sad.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 04, 2022, 09:58:44 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 04, 2022, 08:38:50 AM

Quote from: ixtap on May 04, 2022, 08:30:59 AM

We are all over Holiday Inn Express. DH loves the cinnamon rolls, as well as the price.

Same here, especially as I still have about 10 nights free on points that I earned from my business travel days..:)

Quote from: couponvan on May 04, 2022, 08:56:02 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 04, 2022, 08:38:50 AM

Quote from: ixtap on May 04, 2022, 08:30:59 AM

We are all over Holiday Inn Express. DH loves the cinnamon rolls, as well as the price.

Same here, especially as I still have about 10 nights free on points that I earned from my business travel days..:)

We love those too. 

I'm also a big Hyatt Place/House fan with three kids.  They are one of the few chains that allow 5 people in a room.  They have the two queen beds and the sofa bed.  With 3 kids also getting free breakfast, I consider it a massive value.  The 5,000 point per night redemptions making hotel rooms effectively $50-75/night with Chase UR points were awesome.  (Those valuations are changing this year, and I am sad.)

DH and I love our IHG Rewards cards. I have over 500k points from my working days and collectively, we still have around 700k points. We've used a bunch, too. (I retired almost ten years ago.)

Best tip: buy rooms with the "Points + Cash" option, because what you're actually doing is buying more points, not paying for a room. Therefore, you neatly sidestep the taxes, which y'all know can be ridiculous on hotel rooms. If you cancel the reservation, the additional points are just added to your account. Once upon a time, when I was a total points junkie, when the deal was right, I'd make a P+C reservation and cancel it, just for the cheap points.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 04, 2022, 10:27:31 AM

I have never mastered the travel points game. We have a chase sapphire card and I don't know that we've ever really done well with it. I always end up spending my points on Amazon stuff we need. It always seems like when I'm going to book travel through them it's more than another website. So I must be missing something.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on May 04, 2022, 10:48:45 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 04, 2022, 10:27:31 AM

I have never mastered the travel points game. We have a chase sapphire card and I don't know that we've ever really done well with it. I always end up spending my points on Amazon stuff we need. It always seems like when I'm going to book travel through them it's more than another website. So I must be missing something.

It's definitely a learning curve.  There are all sorts of websites out there, but I've never put in enough effort to learn enough to be a pro at it.  And I think even in the best case, there is hassle involved (transferring points, booking flights on non-US carrier websites, setting up accounts, etc.) which may not be hassle if you're into that sort of thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on May 04, 2022, 11:40:20 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 04, 2022, 10:27:31 AM

I have never mastered the travel points game. We have a chase sapphire card and I don't know that we've ever really done well with it. I always end up spending my points on Amazon stuff we need. It always seems like when I'm going to book travel through them it's more than another website. So I must be missing something.

You set up a Hyatt membership. Then on Chase you choose transfer to travel partners. Then you use Hyatt points to book the room. (Or points + cash if that makes financial sense on a redemption.) Hyatt and Marriott are the two we use. I’ve had a hard time with airfare redemptions just because we fly a lot of discount airlines. Breeze, Jet Blue, and Spirit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 04, 2022, 01:04:14 PM

Quote from: Dicey on May 04, 2022, 09:58:44 AM

DH and I love our IHG Rewards cards. I have over 500k points from my working days and collectively, we still have around 700k points. We've used a bunch, too. (I retired almost ten years ago.)

Best tip: buy rooms with the "Points + Cash" option, because what you're actually doing is buying more points, not paying for a room. Therefore, you neatly sidestep the taxes, which y'all know can be ridiculous on hotel rooms. If you cancel the reservation, the additional points are just added to your account. Once upon a time, when I was a total points junkie, when the deal was right, I'd make a P+C reservation and cancel it, just for the cheap points.

You know I never knew that!

I will look at the P&C option in the future.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 04, 2022, 02:43:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 04, 2022, 08:35:15 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 04, 2022, 02:39:10 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on May 03, 2022, 01:02:54 PM

It's hard to change these mindsets. Like, I won't buy a luxury car even though I want one because "we are not those kind of people, a Honda is just fine".

I hear you :-) Last year when I was car shopping, I could have bought anything, even a Mercedes S class, with minimal impact on our finances. After a month of test drives, I was completely unimpressed by the luxury makes. I actually wound up buying a Honda CR-V because I just could not get myself to spend more than $35k on a car.

Same here.. We got a new base model AWD Passport for $35k.. This car seems outrageously decadent to us us.. It HUGE and the difference between the base model and the top end is leather seats and a shiny badge on the back.. Oh and about $15k of course.. No thanks.

I ended up special ordering my Jeep in 2015.  I wanted two extra packages,  the tow package and the cold weather package only.  The dealer (I was near Detroit so everyone gets the friends deal) couldn’t find one for several months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 04, 2022, 03:25:03 PM

None of us are quite old enough to be in the 'but you can't take it with you category' yet, but it will likely become a distinct 'problem' for many of us...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 04, 2022, 05:21:27 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 04, 2022, 03:25:03 PM

None of us are quite old enough to be in the 'but you can't take it with you category' yet, but it will likely become a distinct 'problem' for many of us...

Especially as some of us have ridiculously low WR's and we are not drawing pension or SS income yet!

In our case our WR will be practically $zero 4.5 years from now.

How will I cope?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 04, 2022, 05:24:06 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 04, 2022, 03:25:03 PM

None of us are quite old enough to be in the 'but you can't take it with you category' yet, but it will likely become a distinct 'problem' for many of us...

That's mighty kind of you to say, but the birthdate our driver's licenses disagrees.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: shureShote on May 05, 2022, 05:26:36 AM

Quote from: Dicey on May 04, 2022, 09:58:44 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 04, 2022, 08:38:50 AM

Quote from: ixtap on May 04, 2022, 08:30:59 AM

We are all over Holiday Inn Express. DH loves the cinnamon rolls, as well as the price.

Same here, especially as I still have about 10 nights free on points that I earned from my business travel days..:)

Quote from: couponvan on May 04, 2022, 08:56:02 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 04, 2022, 08:38:50 AM

Quote from: ixtap on May 04, 2022, 08:30:59 AM

We are all over Holiday Inn Express. DH loves the cinnamon rolls, as well as the price.

Same here, especially as I still have about 10 nights free on points that I earned from my business travel days..:)

We love those too. 

I'm also a big Hyatt Place/House fan with three kids.  They are one of the few chains that allow 5 people in a room.  They have the two queen beds and the sofa bed.  With 3 kids also getting free breakfast, I consider it a massive value.  The 5,000 point per night redemptions making hotel rooms effectively $50-75/night with Chase UR points were awesome.  (Those valuations are changing this year, and I am sad.)

DH and I love our IHG Rewards cards. I have over 500k points from my working days and collectively, we still have around 700k points. We've used a bunch, too. (I retired almost ten years ago.)

Best tip: buy rooms with the "Points + Cash" option, because what you're actually doing is buying more points, not paying for a room. Therefore, you neatly sidestep the taxes, which y'all know can be ridiculous on hotel rooms. If you cancel the reservation, the additional points are just added to your account. Once upon a time, when I was a total points junkie, when the deal was right, I'd make a P+C reservation and cancel it, just for the cheap points.

We were IHGers for many years, but we moved to Hilton Honors about three years ago for a variety of reasons. We are even started to unwind our long standing Delta Skymiles accounts and moving to United, mostly due to routing after moving last year.

I agree though, the P+C is a good way to go. I think we are down to about 200k points between us left and still use them in a couple locations.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 07, 2022, 09:26:54 PM

Met with my financial advisor on Friday.  He told me again I can spend more money.

I also saw that I’m 25k in tax loss harvesting so far this year.  half from having my condo downpayment in the market since I didn’t plan to buy a place until we’ll I bought a place.  Half from flipping my bonds between the California muni fund and the federal muni fund the last few months.  It still floors me that I’m playing “rich people games”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 11, 2022, 08:54:14 AM

Is he one of yours?  This brat has made claims that his parents are worth over 2 MILLION DOLLARS!
That somehow seems to entitled him to get drunk on a plane and assault flight attendants.
I'm thinking Mustacian parents raised the poor entitled darling, because he's flying Frontier, even though his parents are loaded. https://vm.tiktok.com/ZTdpXtjnm/?k=1

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on May 11, 2022, 09:44:37 AM

Not my kids! My oldest wouldn’t talk to other humans. He’s too shy. He also doesn’t drink alcohol. My middle one would be trying to take over flight attendant duties because he liked to help. He also doesn’t drink because with his meds the effect on his liver would be a catastrophic event. My youngest, well, she’s 16 going on 60. They would all definitely fly Frontier, Breeze, or our family favorite No Spirit airlines. I feel sorry for that entitled brat’s parents. But he is 26-he really should be talking about his own accomplishments versus his parents at that point. Geez.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 11, 2022, 09:58:56 AM

Quote from: couponvan on May 11, 2022, 09:44:37 AM

Not my kids! My oldest wouldn’t talk to other humans. He’s too shy. He also doesn’t drink alcohol. My middle one would be trying to take over flight attendant duties because he liked to help. He also doesn’t drink because with his meds the effect on his liver would be a catastrophic event. My youngest, well, she’s 16 going on 60. They would all definitely fly Frontier, Breeze, or our family favorite No Spirit airlines. I feel sorry for that entitled brat’s parents. But he is 26-he really should be talking about his own accomplishments versus his parents at that point. Geez.

If he were mine, there would be a giant wall between him and that money forever.
No.  I don't think he had a Mustacian upbringing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 22, 2022, 08:28:06 PM

Our neighbors lost their home to a fire last night.  About 5 PM on Saturday lighting hit very close to our home. Nothing appeared wrong and we maintained electric power.  At about 9 PM my son told me he could smell burning wires.  I casually looked around but noticed nothing.  About 10:30 PM my wife came home from dinner she'd had with friends.  I was in the shower and about to get to bed.  My wife screamed the neighbors house was on fire. She immediately called 911. I tossed on clothes still wet from the shower.  Luckily I had fire retardant clothing and work boots in my closet.  I immediately ran to my son and daughter in laws house to wake them.  The house now engulfed in flames lies between our two houses.  His house is only about 30 feet from the burning house and our is about the same distance on the opposite side.  The house on fire is a fishing camp and luckily they weren't home as they often are on weekends.  My son moved their cars away and got their pets out.
We grabbed garden hoses and started to wet down our houses.  I've been a volunteer and industrial fireman for decades.  My son just completed his industrial firefighter certification a few weeks ago.  Our only resources were 30 feet of space between the houses and 25 foot water streams of a few gallons a minute.  I was able to wet our house a little quicker and damages were minor.  My son's house got much hotter.  There were vinyl blinds melted inside his house through a closed window.  All the plastic items outdoors were melted.  Wetting kept the house from burning.  The water was steaming and anything metal was too hot to touch.  The volunteer fire department I'm a former member of showed up about 10 minutes from the call.  Not a bad response, but it seemed like hours.  Once they arrived they started cooling our houses with high pressure water and we're able to start knocking down the flames.  The trees surrounding the house were also on fire.  Flames were at least 75 feet high and were impossible for us to reach without firewater pressure.  Eventually there was enough firefighting equipment and people to get the fire completely out. 
Very little of the structure remained by then. 
Once the shock wore off we finally realized the flash burns to our exposed skin.  Nothing more than like a sunburn, but you can see a line where clothing met exposed skin.
The neighbors have insurance and hopefully they can rebuild their camp that generations have enjoyed.  We boiled shrimp and crabs on our boat dock today with a few beers.  That's life in Cajunland. You fight the battles and move on. 
My son made a tictok.

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTdnFtk9X/?k=1

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on May 22, 2022, 09:40:04 PM

@Bateaux - that is wild. So happy you & your family & neighbors are safe, & that you were able to help save your houses. How lucky that you & your son are both trained fireman!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 22, 2022, 09:52:07 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 22, 2022, 09:40:04 PM

@Bateaux - that is wild. So happy you & your family & neighbors are safe, & that you were able to help save your houses. How lucky that you & your son are both trained fireman!

I would say this is a clear case of "they made their own luck" as it gets.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on May 23, 2022, 04:48:59 AM

Wow. Thank God everyone is ok @Bateaux!
Hope your neighbors are able to rebuild easily and get back to boiling shrimp and drinking beers on the dock quickly (sounds pretty awesome)!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 23, 2022, 06:16:50 AM

Wow!  There is a lesson there in preparation. It also reminded me that I have some wiring in my home that is definitely not NEC code.  I need to get on that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on May 23, 2022, 07:21:14 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on May 22, 2022, 09:52:07 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on May 22, 2022, 09:40:04 PM

@Bateaux - that is wild. So happy you & your family & neighbors are safe, & that you were able to help save your houses. How lucky that you & your son are both trained fireman!

I would say this is a clear case of "they made their own luck" as it gets.

Ha, yes. Clearly the OP & his son made their own luck/were prepared. I was referring to the general situation of a house catching fire, with firemen bordering that house on both sides, which benefited the neighborhood/neighbors.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JoJoP on May 24, 2022, 09:07:02 PM

Bateaux,  I'm so glad nobody was hurt and the pets were saved.  Thank goodness you were able to help. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on May 24, 2022, 09:56:30 PM

Wow, that was a crazy big fire.  Fantastic job keeping it to the one structure and (mostly) protecting your houses.  Glad nobody was hurt beyond a little "sunburn".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 25, 2022, 12:19:41 AM

Wow!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on May 26, 2022, 07:53:41 AM

Wow that looks crazy dramatic! So glad everyone is OK and you protected what you could.  Fingers crossed they can get back up and running as soon as possible.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 29, 2022, 05:04:14 AM

So I finally got paid my 25k relocation bonus to move to our San Francisco Office this week.  The way the Feds pay bonuses is that they basically just get added into and paid to your salary.  They also get taxed like your salary, as if the extra large paycheck is only 1 of 26.  I have been totally messing around with my paycheck seeing what life would be like if I earned over 800k a year, and yes I did receive less than 50% of my gross but I’d have been slightly over 50% if Not for social security tax.  I can see how the very rich don’t necessarily see the point of a 401k, my TSP was down to a measly 2.5% of my inflated salary. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 29, 2022, 06:51:25 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on May 29, 2022, 05:04:14 AM

So I finally got paid my 25k relocation bonus to move to our San Francisco Office this week.  The way the Feds pay bonuses is that they basically just get added into and paid to your salary.  They also get taxed like your salary, as if the extra large paycheck is only 1 of 26.  I have been totally messing around with my paycheck seeing what life would be like if I earned over 800k a year, and yes I did receive less than 50% of my gross but I’d have been slightly over 50% if Not for social security tax.  I can see how the very rich don’t necessarily see the point of a 401k, my TSP was down to a measly 2.5% of my inflated salary.

When I was a kid, I thought a million dollars would put me in the category of the "very rich."  Both times and perception certainly do change things.  In a place like San Francisco, a million is even effectively less than it is in the good old rust belt.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 29, 2022, 07:10:19 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 29, 2022, 06:51:25 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on May 29, 2022, 05:04:14 AM

So I finally got paid my 25k relocation bonus to move to our San Francisco Office this week.  The way the Feds pay bonuses is that they basically just get added into and paid to your salary.  They also get taxed like your salary, as if the extra large paycheck is only 1 of 26.  I have been totally messing around with my paycheck seeing what life would be like if I earned over 800k a year, and yes I did receive less than 50% of my gross but I’d have been slightly over 50% if Not for social security tax.  I can see how the very rich don’t necessarily see the point of a 401k, my TSP was down to a measly 2.5% of my inflated salary.

When I was a kid, I thought a million dollars would put me in the category of the "very rich."  Both times and perception certainly do change things.  In a place like San Francisco, a million is even effectively less than it is in the good old rust belt.

Yes and no.  I’m finding it to be a fascinating place cost wise.  Yes in the city and Silicon Valley proper it is much more expensive for a midwestern sized house and yard, but it’s not the whole story.  An upper middle class person can find a reasonable housing situation with a few compromises.  I also have seen not so special houses in the more expensive suburbs of my old Midwest rust belt city for the same cost of my condo, compared to those house I feel like I got a deal in San Francisco.  (My price range was up to 750k).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 29, 2022, 02:10:59 PM

@Bateaux Great job on getting the pets out and your houses protected!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ingrownstudentloans on June 02, 2022, 06:45:11 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on April 02, 2022, 05:11:46 PM

Joining this race after a short stint in the 1-2 race.  Focusing on continuing to double my money in as short a period of time as possible.

(tracking retirement accounts, taxable accounts and conservative equity in my rental properties, investment land and side businesses)

12/2014    $32,000
12/2016    $64,000 (24 months)
1/2018      $128,000 (25 months)
5/2019      $256,000 (16 months)
11/2020  $512,000 (19 months)
12/2021  $1,024,000 (13 months)
4/2022    $2,048,000 (4 months)
[10/2023 $4,096,000 (19 months] **TARGET**
--
4/1/2022     $2,336,219
5/1/2022     $2,398,670

6/1/2022     $2,556,025 - I realize others in this "race" don't report monthly, or at all, but it's become my monthly ritual when I update the spreadsheets.  Thanks for bearing with me :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 02, 2022, 07:13:30 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on June 02, 2022, 06:45:11 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on April 02, 2022, 05:11:46 PM

Joining this race after a short stint in the 1-2 race.  Focusing on continuing to double my money in as short a period of time as possible.

(tracking retirement accounts, taxable accounts and conservative equity in my rental properties, investment land and side businesses)

12/2014    $32,000
12/2016    $64,000 (24 months)
1/2018      $128,000 (25 months)
5/2019      $256,000 (16 months)
11/2020  $512,000 (19 months)
12/2021  $1,024,000 (13 months)
4/2022    $2,048,000 (4 months)
[10/2023 $4,096,000 (19 months] **TARGET**
--
4/1/2022     $2,336,219
5/1/2022     $2,398,670

6/1/2022     $2,556,025 - I realize others in this "race" don't report monthly, or at all, but it's become my monthly ritual when I update the spreadsheets.  Thanks for bearing with me :)

You get to do you, any way you like. I am curious as to how you plan to reach your 10/23 target. Are you expecting a large influx of cash?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ingrownstudentloans on June 02, 2022, 07:53:01 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 02, 2022, 07:13:30 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on June 02, 2022, 06:45:11 AM

6/1/2022     $2,556,025 - I realize others in this "race" don't report monthly, or at all, but it's become my monthly ritual when I update the spreadsheets.  Thanks for bearing with me :)

You get to do you, any way you like. I am curious as to how you plan to reach your 10/23 target. Are you expecting a large influx of cash?

Ha - thanks!

When I found MMM about a decade ago, I was a new grad with a ton of debt (about 200k - hence the name) graduating into a really bad job market, broadly speaking but specifically for my field.  I had 2 offers when I got out.  One for $24k and one for $73k.  I have worked my way up, fought lifestyle creep, and my compensation increased.  A few career changes and a highly specialized line of work have allowed me to get to an annual compensation of >1M last year, but was making just over 100k a few short years ago.  I realize that my current compensation might not be forever, so I am saving a lot of it and hope to keep making this amount for the next couple of years....make hay while the sun shines, right?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 02, 2022, 08:23:14 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on June 02, 2022, 07:53:01 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 02, 2022, 07:13:30 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on June 02, 2022, 06:45:11 AM

6/1/2022     $2,556,025 - I realize others in this "race" don't report monthly, or at all, but it's become my monthly ritual when I update the spreadsheets.  Thanks for bearing with me :)

You get to do you, any way you like. I am curious as to how you plan to reach your 10/23 target. Are you expecting a large influx of cash?

Ha - thanks!

When I found MMM about a decade ago, I was a new grad with a ton of debt (about 200k - hence the name) graduating into a really bad job market, broadly speaking but specifically for my field.  I had 2 offers when I got out.  One for $24k and one for $73k.  I have worked my way up, fought lifestyle creep, and my compensation increased.  A few career changes and a highly specialized line of work have allowed me to get to an annual compensation of >1M last year, but was making just over 100k a few short years ago.  I realize that my current compensation might not be forever, so I am saving a lot of it and hope to keep making this amount for the next couple of years....make hay while the sun shines, right?

Right! Strike while the iron is hot! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 02, 2022, 12:13:17 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 02, 2022, 08:23:14 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on June 02, 2022, 07:53:01 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 02, 2022, 07:13:30 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on June 02, 2022, 06:45:11 AM

6/1/2022     $2,556,025 - I realize others in this "race" don't report monthly, or at all, but it's become my monthly ritual when I update the spreadsheets.  Thanks for bearing with me :)

You get to do you, any way you like. I am curious as to how you plan to reach your 10/23 target. Are you expecting a large influx of cash?

Ha - thanks!

When I found MMM about a decade ago, I was a new grad with a ton of debt (about 200k - hence the name) graduating into a really bad job market, broadly speaking but specifically for my field.  I had 2 offers when I got out.  One for $24k and one for $73k.  I have worked my way up, fought lifestyle creep, and my compensation increased.  A few career changes and a highly specialized line of work have allowed me to get to an annual compensation of >1M last year, but was making just over 100k a few short years ago.  I realize that my current compensation might not be forever, so I am saving a lot of it and hope to keep making this amount for the next couple of years....make hay while the sun shines, right?

Right! Strike while the iron is hot!

Holy cow! That's one hot iron. Congratulations, especially on avoiding lifestyle creep after slaying that much debt.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 02, 2022, 01:34:33 PM

@ingrownstudentloans What the heck are you doing to get >$1M compensation?.. Robbing banks?

Your not the next "Walter White" are you?...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 02, 2022, 01:59:01 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 02, 2022, 01:34:33 PM

@ingrownstudentloans What the heck are you doing to get >$1M compensation?.. Robbing banks?

Your not the next "Walter White" are you?...:)

"You asked me if I was in the meth business or the money business. Neither. I'm in the empire business."   :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 02, 2022, 03:00:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 02, 2022, 01:34:33 PM

@ingrownstudentloans What the heck are you doing to get >$1M compensation?.. Robbing banks?

Your not the next "Walter White" are you?...:)

I don't know whether you realize it but trailer parks are getting very lucrative.  That could be a good gig for the big bucks.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/may/03/owning-trailer-parks-mobile-home-university-investment (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/may/03/owning-trailer-parks-mobile-home-university-investment)

People who have experience at this sort of thing could be going places.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 02, 2022, 06:29:14 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 02, 2022, 03:00:44 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 02, 2022, 01:34:33 PM

@ingrownstudentloans What the heck are you doing to get >$1M compensation?.. Robbing banks?

Your not the next "Walter White" are you?...:)

I don't know whether you realize it but trailer parks are getting very lucrative.  That could be a good gig for the big bucks.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/may/03/owning-trailer-parks-mobile-home-university-investment (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/may/03/owning-trailer-parks-mobile-home-university-investment)

People who have experience at this sort of thing could be going places.

Trailer parks that house sex offenders are gold mines!.. I saw a documentary on the subject!..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 03, 2022, 05:20:52 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on June 02, 2022, 07:53:01 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 02, 2022, 07:13:30 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on June 02, 2022, 06:45:11 AM

6/1/2022     $2,556,025 - I realize others in this "race" don't report monthly, or at all, but it's become my monthly ritual when I update the spreadsheets.  Thanks for bearing with me :)

You get to do you, any way you like. I am curious as to how you plan to reach your 10/23 target. Are you expecting a large influx of cash?

Ha - thanks!

When I found MMM about a decade ago, I was a new grad with a ton of debt (about 200k - hence the name) graduating into a really bad job market, broadly speaking but specifically for my field.  I had 2 offers when I got out.  One for $24k and one for $73k.  I have worked my way up, fought lifestyle creep, and my compensation increased.  A few career changes and a highly specialized line of work have allowed me to get to an annual compensation of >1M last year, but was making just over 100k a few short years ago.  I realize that my current compensation might not be forever, so I am saving a lot of it and hope to keep making this amount for the next couple of years....make hay while the sun shines, right?

Wowzer.  I had one year of my business where I made over $1M, but that was a very extreme outlier.  (I can call it a great year now but it about killed me when it happened).  I had a couple years I made around $400k, but $150k was more the norm.  I always laughed when what I made "a year" or "a month" would come up, cause my answer was always "well, I can you what I made last year" (and sometimes the answer to the month was "made?  I lost $20k last month", and the answer to what I make next month always depended on if someone was gonna pay their bill and I was not that clairvoyant...

Hang on to whatever the taxman leaves ya as it'll serve you for many many years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 17, 2022, 09:18:25 AM

Wow, all this market volatility and not a peep from the Beyonders in two weeks.

Since the accepted wisdom is just to ignore the static, I wonder if that explains the calm. Are people are stepping back to previous cohorts as their NW "shrinks"? I hope not.

I'm of the persuasion that if market fluction knocks anyone out, they should still hang out here. Could it even be an incentive to stay the course? Let's see what some of our heavyweights, including this thread's founder, think.

@Car Jack, @Bateaux, @Much FishingTo Do, @Exflyboy (Yeah, we know you're busy working. Again.)

P.S. No, I haven't checked our equities and I'm not planning to. I have been tracking our RE, which is finally starting to soften just a bit, so the other shenanigans don't worry me much. As the Brits say, "Keep Calm and Carry on", right Frank?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LoanShark on June 17, 2022, 10:55:39 AM

Yeah, not a fun ride but that's part of the game. Still working here so I'm trying to keep the right perspective and look at it as a buying opportunity.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on June 17, 2022, 11:16:24 AM

@Dicey - We are down a few hundred k, but are staying the course. We still have a very conservative plan (paid off house, one spouse planning to still work by choice, & a very "safe" amount in our retirement accounts. I'm still planning to FIRE in Q1 of 2023.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on June 17, 2022, 11:22:18 AM

Yeah, I'm not very worried about it although I guess a FIRED at the peak of the market and right before inflation and a bear market... oh well :)

I'm enjoying not working too much!

If things tank really badly in commercial leases/property I'm thinking of opening up a little shop to sell pastries! I've always wanted to do that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on June 17, 2022, 11:27:15 AM

We are down around $200k maybe. We still have 2 kids to send through college and DH spending like crazy, so we will re-evaluate in one more year. For now, I refuse to worry overmuch.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 17, 2022, 12:13:23 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 17, 2022, 09:18:25 AM

Wow, all this market volatility and not a peep from the Beyonders in two weeks.

Since the accepted wisdom is just to ignore the static, I wonder if that explains the calm. Are people are stepping back to previous cohorts as their NW "shrinks"? I hope not.

Been busy making artsy stuff and chasing my wife around the house.   

We're still rich and other than a catastrophic illness or legal woe or alt-right murder squads intervening, we're pretty likely to stay that way.

Not much to worry about other than that last one.    Those crazy bastards have a shit load of guns, ammo, shit for brains, and a violent temperament - and I have a caustic mouth when it comes to them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on June 17, 2022, 02:00:52 PM

We had some cash built up, so we’ve been buying in. Since we’re still in accumulation mode, we’re buying on sale right now with the monthly contributions. Next upswing, this will probably send us over the hump into the “beyond” territory.

On this thought, I saw a great article today from a financial advisor whose position was that if you’re in it for the long term, it doesn’t matter what you buy right now, just that you buy something. He was leaning for value plays on consumer staples or big industrials, but whatever the choice, just buy. I like that advice better than the constant “move your money here” reactive noise.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 17, 2022, 02:27:03 PM

Here's a slightly gloomy perspective on this stock market thing.  What's driven this stock market up?  Well - a good part of it is that people have put retirement savings into equities.  This has, of course, included me.  It's a rigged system and unless you are into real estate there appears to be no other realistic investment vehicle.  Think a bit about demographics.  A lot of baby boomers are retiring.  They've worked many years and want to partake in their dreams.  For most of us the dreams are not to watch the stock market.  So, they are now taking their money out to buy the house on the lake or to travel to Uluru with a stop at Machu Picchu.  The market is down.  That vast sum of money from this huge demographic of retirees is gone.

Life's been pretty tough on the ensuing generations.  Pay has gone to shi*.  The system has been rigged so some of them have huge student loans to pay off.  That money is being used for survival and not the stock market.

It's Summer.  Summer is short.  No time to be dragged down with this rigged stock market thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 17, 2022, 02:59:55 PM

I'm teetering right on the razors edge of being on this thread or needing to turn in the membership card.  Trying not to look, but I could not resist last night....and based on that look, I need to hand in the membership card.   Taking into account my YTD contributions, I'm guessing I'm down at least $350K this year.

The positive is that I'm not withdrawing / spending down the discounted dollars right now.  And it has made me re-evaluate the retirement goals and whether I'm setting the bar too high.

So yeah, if you were a Seinfeld junkie back in the day, you may recall the episode where George and Jerry had a certain bet (google "The Contest")......well, "I'm out" --- at least for now.   :-) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 17, 2022, 03:38:37 PM

Quote from: arcturus on June 17, 2022, 02:59:55 PM

So yeah, if you were a Seinfeld junkie back in the day, you may recall the episode where George and Jerry had a certain bet (google "The Contest")......well, "I'm out" --- at least for now.   :-)

Nope.   When you're in, you're in, as far as I'm concerned.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 17, 2022, 03:59:07 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 17, 2022, 03:38:37 PM

Quote from: arcturus on June 17, 2022, 02:59:55 PM

So yeah, if you were a Seinfeld junkie back in the day, you may recall the episode where George and Jerry had a certain bet (google "The Contest")......well, "I'm out" --- at least for now.   :-)

Nope.   When you're in, you're in, as far as I'm concerned.

Yup. That was the reason I posted to this thread. Plus, y'all were way too quiet for too long ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 17, 2022, 04:04:50 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 17, 2022, 03:38:37 PM

Quote from: arcturus on June 17, 2022, 02:59:55 PM

So yeah, if you were a Seinfeld junkie back in the day, you may recall the episode where George and Jerry had a certain bet (google "The Contest")......well, "I'm out" --- at least for now.   :-)

Nope.   When you're in, you're in, as far as I'm concerned.

Well, thank you @SwordGuy !   And on second thought....I must be down more like $400K this year...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 17, 2022, 04:49:38 PM

I have not checked the portfolio, but I do know I want to move some funds from bond index's to VTSAX or similar.

I almost pulled the trigger on Thursday but it kinda feels we have further to go down.. Of course if I wait forever I'll never buy any.

I am back firmly in accumulation mode again for the time being but it wasn't the market pullback that made me "un-retire".. Honest.. @Dicey ..:)

I must say earning a shit ton of ca$h this year doesn't feel half bad though... The question is.. when to stop? I can tell you my HSA and 401k contributions will be maxed out by the end of August. So maybe "NOT" buy Cobra in Sept+Oct* then buy the ACA at $1500/month for Nov+Dec might be a good plan.

* You have 60 days to sign up for the ACA after you lose your employer coverage, and you can buy the Cobra retroactively for 60+ days after you leave your job.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 17, 2022, 08:39:36 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on June 17, 2022, 12:13:23 PM

Quote from: Dicey on June 17, 2022, 09:18:25 AM

Wow, all this market volatility and not a peep from the Beyonders in two weeks.

Since the accepted wisdom is just to ignore the static, I wonder if that explains the calm. Are people are stepping back to previous cohorts as their NW "shrinks"? I hope not.

Been busy making artsy stuff and chasing my wife around the house.   

We're still rich and other than a catastrophic illness or legal woe or alt-right murder squads intervening, we're pretty likely to stay that way.

Not much to worry about other than that last one.    Those crazy bastards have a shit load of guns, ammo, shit for brains, and a violent temperament - and I have a caustic mouth when it comes to them.

You are not alone, and this deserves to be bolded.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 17, 2022, 08:59:17 PM

Busy with work.  Also I’m learning computer stuff so my brain is fried.  Converted Hex to Binary to decimals yesterday.  Which actually caused my math skills to go bye-bye.  What 9+8 does not equal 15?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 18, 2022, 12:55:14 AM

We just got back from a two week vacation in Florida.  Spent a week in Fort Lauderdale, a day at SeaWorld in Orlando and a few days at the house in Citrus County.  It was a good time to be away.  Kept my mind off the downturn in the market.  Right now we're down almost $500K.  That's not a small sum, but the remainder is still in range where I feel zero panic.  I may make some buys soon.  Index 500 or VTSAX type.  I'm back at work and already forced into 24 hours of overtime this weekend.  I'll have a few hours off Sunday and then back in on Monday.
I did buy myself a new bicycle.  Surly Straggler with racks and bags for paved road/gravel road touring.  No miles on it yet.  I've been fitting it out with all the touring kit for retirement next year. 
The Bob's are back at the worksite.  You know the "Office Space Bob's.". I haven't personally talked to them.  We've ran lean in production since the 2008 debacle.  They are here to help us cut costs they say.  We have old ratty equipment that should have been replaced decades ago.  I think they are at a loss for words on zero cost improvements.  A hedge fund bought a large portion of the company earlier in the year.  They protested for seats on the board and decided they would like to see us run leaner.  We ran lean all through the pandemic.  All they are finding is millions of dollars in backlogged maintenance we've bandaid fixed.  I'll be entertained to see their reports if revealed to the mongrel masses. 
I'm less than 11 months from my big adventure on the Appalachian Trail.  That trip will be for 45 days.  After that I'll decide my future employment/retirement.  I've been invited to rejoin the high angle rescue team at work.  I've been off the team since 2015.  I hope my older body still appreciates repelling inverted in the air on ropes and climbing in tight spaces.  It will qualify me for SAR team, Firefighter, or maybe some civilian mountain repelling.  I'm ageing out of such things and I'm not mentally ready to give up yet.  I know the recertification training will kick my 54 year old ass in September.   
That's all I've got right now.  I'm not too worried about the economy.  I've got just about enough time left at work for the recovery to likely be in full swing.
I'm leaning towards taking the pension plan and not the lump sum once retired.  The lump sum payment is taking major hits from interest rate increases.  About a 10 percent loss for every 1 percent increase.  The annuity will not change, but it will not have COLA adjustments either.  I've got 54 weeks minimum till I have to make that decision.
Glad to see there was absolutely no panic here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on June 18, 2022, 07:43:57 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 18, 2022, 12:55:14 AM

We have old ratty equipment that should have been replaced decades ago.
...
All they are finding is millions of dollars in backlogged maintenance we've bandaid fixed.  I'll be entertained to see their reports if revealed to the mongrel masses. 

Please, on behalf of our nation, help that report get revealed.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on June 18, 2022, 08:47:07 AM

Just checked my 401k balance, and it's below $1m for the first time in a while. (My husband has his own, similarly sized account). That was depressing. I've also maxed it out for the year, and done a full back door contribution, so it's a little hard to watch. But, alas, here we are. Guess I'll go out for a hike & forget about that!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 18, 2022, 09:24:42 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on June 18, 2022, 08:47:07 AM

Just checked my 401k balance, and it's below $1m for the first time in a while. (My husband has his own, similarly sized account). That was depressing. I've also maxed it out for the year, and done a full back door contribution, so it's a little hard to watch. But, alas, here we are. Guess I'll go out for a hike & forget about that!

Good example, MBM. You're part of this club no matter what the market does. Your 401ks are not your only investments ;-)

I feel your pain on the pinch you're feeling for frontloading 2022, but it will all work out in the long run.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on June 19, 2022, 06:16:04 AM

I wasn't going to look. And then I couldn't help myself.
We're down about $700k or 20%. Still in the club. Still FI. Just not pressing to beyond.

I was at our "fancy" grocery yesterday to buy some nice steaks to grill for father's day and I noticed that prices are high enough that I'm starting not to feel rich anymore. Everything feels expensive, therefore the stash number is starting to feel like "not enough".
I do realize that all of that is psychological and frankly ridiculous.

DH is still working. I'm still doing some part time contract work to keep my foot in the door. I'm not sure we really need to do any of that but he's happy working and my current projects keep me busy when the kids are at school or sports. We can't travel a lot because of the kid's school and activities anyway. And honestly, because we still have two kids at home (ages 13 and 9) our expenses are still kind of hard to predict. So as long as we aren't stressed about working it's good to have a little cushion I suppose.

So we'll keep on trucking and enjoy today and not worry about it! Speaking of which, I've got to bake a coffee cake for fathers day breakfast on the patio :)..........

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 19, 2022, 09:29:19 AM

Just read a somewhat encouraging view from BofA's grand investment sorcerer.....using past bear markets as a guide, he/she points to perhaps some more near term downside (~10%), but a hopeful return of a bull market before the end of the year (they mention October), and then they state that if the next bull run is typical, it could last 5 years and take the S&P to 6,000+.

I know we're all pretty cynical about whether these folks are any better than the flip of a coin (and I'm right there too), but it is at least somewhat interesting that this is based on historical averages.

Out of curiosity, I did a "back of the envelope" analysis of what that type of a scenario might do to my situation.  And its ok -- maybe not what I would have hoped for 6-7 months ago, but ok and could still be on track, although I don't think I'll ever be a member of the "and Beyond" crowd on this thread.

Once again, I found the exercise of modeling this scenario (albeit very, very simplistically) to be useful, at least for me.   I definitely wish I had cash on the sidelines ready to deploy over the next six months, but alas, I'm just not in that position.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 19, 2022, 09:38:46 AM

Those were good days when I was briefly in the "and beyond."  Now, I find myself back on the ground, but it's solid ground and things are going to be OK.  The sun shines.  The wind blows.  The grass is green and people smile.  Things are going to be OK.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 19, 2022, 10:10:51 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 18, 2022, 09:24:42 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on June 18, 2022, 08:47:07 AM

Just checked my 401k balance, and it's below $1m for the first time in a while. (My husband has his own, similarly sized account). That was depressing. I've also maxed it out for the year, and done a full back door contribution, so it's a little hard to watch. But, alas, here we are. Guess I'll go out for a hike & forget about that!

Good example, MBM. You're part of this club no matter what the market does. Your 401ks are not your only investments ;-)

I feel your pain on the pinch you're feeling for frontloading 2022, but it will all work out in the long run.

I’m adding in cash a cash position for when I Retire in July 2025.  I’m now debating on if and how much I should go back to putting into my taxable account (tax advantaged accounts are maxed out for 2022/on schedule to be maxed out in the case of the TSP).  I’m about $14k from my cash goal and I fund that with mostly found money and it should be funded by mid year next year accounting to the way I’ve been doing that lately.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on June 20, 2022, 05:22:17 AM

Still in the club.  Down last time I checked but not horribly.  Due to OMY'ing last year I'm still a bit long cash, so have been investing some of that over the last few weeks and will do a bit more.

I'm not overly freaked out by this particular shift - though it seems hard to see a quick/easy way out of the current global situation, so I suspect we may have to suck up quite a bit more financial pain before we are through to the other side.

I suppose the more "macro" way it shifts my view is that it focuses my mind on the fact that I will be retired for potentially 50 years, and a lot can happen in that time - the world will change in ways that we can't even imagine (hopefully including some good ways).

For me the way I think about it is that I can always work more and generate value later if needed.  It's not a reason to put off my FIREing plan any more right now (still planning to pull the plug at the end of the year) - just a reason to try to remain fairly limber and flexible post-FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 20, 2022, 12:51:22 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 19, 2022, 09:38:46 AM

Those were good days when I was briefly in the "and beyond."  Now, I find myself back on the ground, but it's solid ground and things are going to be OK.  The sun shines.  The wind blows.  The grass is green and people smile.  Things are going to be OK.

Absolutely! Think abut it.. We almost melted down the economy in 2008.. Literally almost financial collapse!.. Yet in 2009 the market went of the biggest bull run ever after a 55% pullback in equities.

Heck, for most of us, even if the same thing happened we'd still be millionaires!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Allie on June 20, 2022, 02:44:17 PM

I saw the post and just checked…we’re down 400k.  It’s a bummer, but I think we’re still FI and we have a few more years of accumulation.  We really started to get serious about accumulating in 2007, so we didn’t lose much in 2008 and the rising market really helped keep us motivated and pushed us along faster than we would have otherwise experienced.  I’m anxious (nervous, excited, curious anxious not nervous) to see what happens over the next 5 years. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 21, 2022, 09:04:22 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 20, 2022, 12:51:22 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 19, 2022, 09:38:46 AM

Those were good days when I was briefly in the "and beyond."  Now, I find myself back on the ground, but it's solid ground and things are going to be OK.  The sun shines.  The wind blows.  The grass is green and people smile.  Things are going to be OK.

Absolutely! Think abut it.. We almost melted down the economy in 2008.. Literally almost financial collapse!.. Yet in 2009 the market went of the biggest bull run ever after a 55% pullback in equities.

Heck, for most of us, even if the same thing happened we'd still be millionaires!

2008/2009 was a time of deep despair for us.  Son had cancer at 14.  Wife couldn't work for nearly two years because cancer treatments were out of state in Tennessee.  Gasoline was $4 a gallon!!!  It was a 400 mile drive back and forth to the hospital.  Our savings cash and retirement had taken a huge hit.  I had to be a single parent to our 12 year old in Louisiana.  I'd try and make the drive up for family time at least every other week.  The salvation was I had a big groovy conversation van with a bed in the back.  Terrible gas mileage but my son could sleep in the back on the overnight drives to see his mom and brother. 
My son survived, my wife went back to work and we were a family in one place again.  To compare this dip in the markets to that time for us... please. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 21, 2022, 09:49:05 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 21, 2022, 09:04:22 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 20, 2022, 12:51:22 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 19, 2022, 09:38:46 AM

Those were good days when I was briefly in the "and beyond."  Now, I find myself back on the ground, but it's solid ground and things are going to be OK.  The sun shines.  The wind blows.  The grass is green and people smile.  Things are going to be OK.

Absolutely! Think abut it.. We almost melted down the economy in 2008.. Literally almost financial collapse!.. Yet in 2009 the market went of the biggest bull run ever after a 55% pullback in equities.

Heck, for most of us, even if the same thing happened we'd still be millionaires!

2008/2009 was a time of deep despair for us.  Son had cancer at 14.  Wife couldn't work for nearly two years because cancer treatments were out of state in Tennessee.  Gasoline was $4 a gallon!!!  It was a 400 mile drive back and forth to the hospital.  Our savings cash and retirement had taken a huge hit.  I had to be a single parent to our 12 year old in Louisiana.  I'd try and make the drive up for family time at least every other week.  The salvation was I had a big groovy conversation van with a bed in the back.  Terrible gas mileage but my son could sleep in the back on the overnight drives to see his mom and brother. 
My son survived, my wife went back to work and we were a family in one place again.  To compare this dip in the markets to that time for us... please.

Ugh, man I couldn't imagine what you guys went through!..:(

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 21, 2022, 10:13:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 21, 2022, 09:49:05 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on June 21, 2022, 09:04:22 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 20, 2022, 12:51:22 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 19, 2022, 09:38:46 AM

Those were good days when I was briefly in the "and beyond."  Now, I find myself back on the ground, but it's solid ground and things are going to be OK.  The sun shines.  The wind blows.  The grass is green and people smile.  Things are going to be OK.

Absolutely! Think abut it.. We almost melted down the economy in 2008.. Literally almost financial collapse!.. Yet in 2009 the market went of the biggest bull run ever after a 55% pullback in equities.

Heck, for most of us, even if the same thing happened we'd still be millionaires!

2008/2009 was a time of deep despair for us.  Son had cancer at 14.  Wife couldn't work for nearly two years because cancer treatments were out of state in Tennessee.  Gasoline was $4 a gallon!!!  It was a 400 mile drive back and forth to the hospital.  Our savings cash and retirement had taken a huge hit.  I had to be a single parent to our 12 year old in Louisiana.  I'd try and make the drive up for family time at least every other week.  The salvation was I had a big groovy conversation van with a bed in the back.  Terrible gas mileage but my son could sleep in the back on the overnight drives to see his mom and brother. 
My son survived, my wife went back to work and we were a family in one place again.  To compare this dip in the markets to that time for us... please.

Ugh, man I couldn't imagine what you guys went through!..:(

It's a huge part of us.  We were lucky that we had a great family and friends support group.   We were debt free going into it.  No Mr. Money Mustache back then.  We were just frugal.  We watched people lose their houses and marriages over money woes.  We certainly weren't alone.  The entire country was hurting.  I hope that was the big one for this century.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 22, 2022, 06:34:48 AM

Quote from: Dicey on June 17, 2022, 09:18:25 AM

Wow, all this market volatility and not a peep from the Beyonders in two weeks.

Since the accepted wisdom is just to ignore the static, I wonder if that explains the calm. Are people are stepping back to previous cohorts as their NW "shrinks"? I hope not.

I'm of the persuasion that if market fluction knocks anyone out, they should still hang out here. Could it even be an incentive to stay the course? Let's see what some of our heavyweights, including this thread's founder, think.

@Car Jack, @Bateaux, @Much FishingTo Do, @Exflyboy (Yeah, we know you're busy working. Again.)

P.S. No, I haven't checked our equities and I'm not planning to. I have been tracking our RE, which is finally starting to soften just a bit, so the other shenanigans don't worry me much. As the Brits say, "Keep Calm and Carry on", right Frank?

Wow, I've never been called a heavyweight, before but I sure did pack on the COvid-19lbs....

Looks like my TNW has dropped from 4.85M at the start of the year to 4.25M (LNW about a million less on each).  Just because of coincidental timing in 2008 with big income and having no money in 2000, it looks like this will be the first time in 20 years of positive net worth that my NW might drop in a calendar year.

Oh well, 5 years ago I would have considered 4.85M and 4.25M practically the same (rounding error) so not exactly crushing.  And I do continue to work, but as it has been the last few years that's a personal problem I'm working through and not due to any market drop. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on June 22, 2022, 08:19:47 AM

@Bateaux - that really puts it all in perspective, doesn't it? So happy that your family is back together again, and that you had such a great network to help you during what must have been an incredibly difficult time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 23, 2022, 04:14:56 AM

Well.  The new TSP website did not play well integrating into my Financial Advisors website.  So I had to input it manually which meant I had to look at it.  Ouch down over $150k. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 30, 2022, 02:53:59 AM

I keep a spreadsheet in which I keep track of my asset allocation every month, both in the tax advantaged and taxable accounts. The idea is to see if there is any need of rebalancing. The remarkable thing  I have found is that the asset allocation has barely budged despite the big decrease in the market - shows that pretty much all asset classes have been hit pretty much equally.

I typically think about this only once a month when I update my spreadsheet which I just did. We are not down a huge amount since the peak  - partly due to our conservative asset allocation and partly due to the fact that my wife is still working. Right now, our net worth is still well above the amount we had when I retired in October 2020.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 30, 2022, 12:25:14 PM

Just attended a coworker's departmental retirement party.  He's getting out at 55. He's been a part time commercial fisherman, outside of his normal laboratory job for his whole life.  He worked till locking in his benefits at 55.  He'll still be a commercial fisherman because he loves it.  I'm so happy happy for his success.

In a sad note, a not too long retired former coworker passed away yesterday.  Hard to believe he's gone.  It made today a little sad and more special all at the same time.
All eyes turned to me in this room of people I've known for decades.  The comment was whose next?
Retirement, not death we hope.  But yes, it's me that will likely retire next.  Never been that guy! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 01, 2022, 02:24:24 PM

@Bateaux , I read your story from 2008/2009 and I'm so glad things turned out positive and cannot imagine what that must have been like to go through that.   Not that it compares to your situation, but I went through a divorce about 10 years ago and I will just say that, at that time, financial independence was not even in sight -- now there is light at the end of that tunnel, even though it is brighter some days than others. 

I have been looking to history to help bring some perspective (and to try to see if we might be nearing a bottom) and when I compare this downturn to most others over the past 20 years, 2008/2009 always stands out as being far worse than this one so far.  The S&P is about 16% off its 250 day moving average today. 

As for me, my LNW still starts with a $2 as of June 30 (b-a-r-e-l-y :-)), so I'm happy about that.  This in a market that is down 20% since the beginning of the year, so I'll take it.   As we all know, if the market is down 20%, it needs to go up ~25% to get back to where it was and if I apply that math to my situation, I start to feel ok about where I am -- at least for the moment.   Looking forward to a long weekend here in the US and a vacation later in July!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 01, 2022, 07:28:55 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 01, 2022, 02:24:24 PM

@Bateaux , I read your story from 2008/2009 and I'm so glad things turned out positive and cannot imagine what that must have been like to go through that.   Not that it compares to your situation, but I went through a divorce about 10 years ago and I will just say that, at that time, financial independence was not even in sight -- now there is light at the end of that tunnel, even though it is brighter some days than others. 

I have been looking to history to help bring some perspective (and to try to see if we might be nearing a bottom) and when I compare this downturn to most others over the past 20 years, 2008/2009 always stands out as being far worse than this one so far.  The S&P is about 16% off its 250 day moving average today. 

As for me, my LNW still starts with a $2 as of June 30 (b-a-r-e-l-y :-)), so I'm happy about that.  This in a market that is down 20% since the beginning of the year, so I'll take it.   As we all know, if the market is down 20%, it needs to go up 24% to get back to where it was and if I apply that math to my situation, I start to feel ok about where I am -- at least for the moment.   Looking forward to a long weekend here in the US and a vacation later in July!

I'm glad you appreciated the life story.  I don't want to overly downplay the 2022 recession.  We still have time for a deeper dive.  However the outlook doesn't seem as bleak. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 02, 2022, 11:36:46 AM

I had one of the advisors call me from one of the many smallish 401k plans I have and tells me "the markets are a mess right now"

To which I responded that this correction is very normal and even today the markets are UP 50% compared to 5 years ago.

"Oh so you're not worried then?"... Nope, the 50k I have in that plan is one of "a few" that I have and if the markets take another step down I'll be buying some more..:)

So no, don't think I need any "expert" advice..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on July 03, 2022, 07:18:53 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 02, 2022, 11:36:46 AM

I had one of the advisors call me from one of the many smallish 401k plans I have and tells me "the markets are a mess right now"

To which I responded that this correction is very normal and even today the markets are UP 50% compared to 5 years ago.

"Oh so you're not worried then?"... Nope, the 50k I have in that plan is one of "a few" that I have and if the markets take another step down I'll be buying some more..:)

So no, don't think I need any "expert" advice..:)

Wow, That seems really weird an advisor called you to tell you to worry about the market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 03, 2022, 08:38:04 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on July 03, 2022, 07:18:53 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 02, 2022, 11:36:46 AM

I had one of the advisors call me from one of the many smallish 401k plans I have and tells me "the markets are a mess right now"

To which I responded that this correction is very normal and even today the markets are UP 50% compared to 5 years ago.

"Oh so you're not worried then?"... Nope, the 50k I have in that plan is one of "a few" that I have and if the markets take another step down I'll be buying some more..:)

So no, don't think I need any "expert" advice..:)

Wow, That seems really weird an advisor called you to tell you to worry about the market.

Nope.  They'll sell a product that pays them an upfront commission and residuals and comes with high fees for their agency.   Not weird at all.  Unethical, but not weird.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 03, 2022, 09:09:55 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on July 03, 2022, 08:38:04 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on July 03, 2022, 07:18:53 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 02, 2022, 11:36:46 AM

I had one of the advisors call me from one of the many smallish 401k plans I have and tells me "the markets are a mess right now"

To which I responded that this correction is very normal and even today the markets are UP 50% compared to 5 years ago.

"Oh so you're not worried then?"... Nope, the 50k I have in that plan is one of "a few" that I have and if the markets take another step down I'll be buying some more..:)

So no, don't think I need any "expert" advice..:)

Wow, That seems really weird an advisor called you to tell you to worry about the market.

Nope.  They'll sell a product that pays them an upfront commission and residuals and comes with high fees for their agency.   Not weird at all.  Unethical, but not weird.

Maybe, with the market sliding down it could be that business is "off."  The advisor may be resorting to cold calls to keep his business at an acceptable level.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 03, 2022, 11:52:00 AM

@pecunia
I think it is basically cold calling clients.  Business is down and they are under pressure to sell something.  I really don't care for salesmen.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 03, 2022, 11:57:14 AM

Hehe, Maybe what I should have said was.. "I have a total of $x,xxx,xxx and I really need somebody to help me manage all of it... I mean its overwhelming.. Do you think I could retire now?"

O even "Yeah gosh I've lost $xxx,xxx so far, what should I do?"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 03, 2022, 12:00:17 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 03, 2022, 11:57:14 AM

Hehe, Maybe what I should have said was.. "I have a total of $x,xxx,xxx and I really need somebody to help me manage all of it... I mean its overwhelming.. Do you think I could retire now?"

O even "Yeah gosh I've lost $xxx,xxx so far, what should I do?"

FTFY

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Money Badger on July 04, 2022, 05:05:06 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 03, 2022, 11:57:14 AM

Hehe, Maybe what I should have said was.. "I have a total of $x,xxx,xxx and I really need somebody to help me manage all of it... I mean its overwhelming.. Do you think I could retire now?"

O even "Yeah gosh I've lost $xxx,xxx so far, what should I do?"

The fact the advisor decided to troll your $50K sized account says it all...   Parasite thinking, "this little fish's balance is down, let me "help" him by churning the account a bit to a mutual fund with basically the same mix and collect my $50 commission so I can get to the next account in my robo-calling queue here in the call center in [someplace offshore]."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 07, 2022, 04:48:20 AM

I know I talked briefly to my FA in 2020.  I think he called all his clients to make sure we weren’t freaking out.  We haven’t met off schedule this year.  I guess he noted I don’t freak out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Money Badger on July 12, 2022, 06:49:22 PM

Indeed.  Stoicism is solid gold.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on July 29, 2022, 02:59:51 PM

Watched the stash drop down toward 3. Used up some cash from the stash to buy more index funds. Now climbing toward the previous peak again.

I was doing some math on potential future scenarios including future social security, potential returns on an interesting investment, 3% to 5% returns on the main stash, and other potential one-off income events. In short, we stay above 3 in all reasonable worst case scenarios. On the other hand, if we see higher returns and get the big bumps and maybe have an inheritance come in (there are 3-4 of various sizes possible) and keep working, the top end of the range is 18-20 at age 70.

Bottom line is that it leaves me really unmotivated in my work. I don’t need a fancy BMW M, and most things that I “want” actually require more time at this point than money. Some are things that money could buy (e.g. kids’ treehouse), but the fun of that is actually building it with my kids. Meanwhile, DW just got her biggest paycheck ever and it’s more apparent than ever that we could do just fine on her salary.

Okay, back to work (from home) before some family obligations this afternoon and a look at another investment property tonight…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 29, 2022, 05:25:02 PM

Peaked at 3.25m in Dec, and went down to 2.9. Now we popped back to 3. And this is the worse start of the year for the markets since the 70s? Seems like we should be okay.

My goal is to get through next February at my job, when bonuses are paid and I become fully vested, and DH is wrapping up his doctoral (at age 53!) and house upgrades are done. Then I’ll reevaluate.

We actually have a cash flow problem, not NW problem. One of us has to work a few more years to avoid tapping into retirement accounts early. Our after tax would cover 3-4 years at its current level, and we’d have to cover 7 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 29, 2022, 07:43:46 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 29, 2022, 05:25:02 PM

We actually have a cash flow problem, not NW problem. One of us has to work a few more years to avoid tapping into retirement accounts early. Our after tax would cover 3-4 years at its current level, and we’d have to cover 7 years.

There are a number of ways to solve your cash flow problem other than one of you working a few more years:

1.  SEPP / 72(t)
2.  Roth conversion ladder
3.  Rule of 55
4.  Live off taxable
5.  Pay the 10% EWP

Some combination of the above probably would work depending on the particulars.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 29, 2022, 09:30:56 PM

Well my taxable is back into, make a donation to the DAF next year range.  It had fallen to the well, it was my goal amount for FIRE range.  36 months (slightly less) until retirement.  I definitely have a love/hate relationship with my federal pension.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 29, 2022, 10:50:46 PM

I love how this group goes silent during a big drop.  No panic, no posts of frustration.  Peaceful silence.  Now that there is a little rally, people are calmly posting again.  Looks like we're down a little over 200K now from the high.  We'll see more dips, but the market is itching to recover.  Probably new highs by years end.
Anyway.  Nine more months till I grab my pack for some long distance hiking and retirement.
It's all good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 30, 2022, 12:44:03 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 29, 2022, 07:43:46 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on July 29, 2022, 05:25:02 PM

We actually have a cash flow problem, not NW problem. One of us has to work a few more years to avoid tapping into retirement accounts early. Our after tax would cover 3-4 years at its current level, and we’d have to cover 7 years.

There are a number of ways to solve your cash flow problem other than one of you working a few more years:

1.  SEPP / 72(t)
2.  Roth conversion ladder
3.  Rule of 55
4.  Live off taxable
5.  Pay the 10% EWP

Some combination of the above probably would work depending on the particulars.

6. Cut expenses
7. DH doesn’t want to retire and will keep working

I model a lot of these options in my handy spreadsheet. In our situation the numbers work better and better the longer at least one of us is working the next 7 years. One I reach 55 and he 60 (in 7 years) it’s pretty much impossible to implode unless we put it all on red in Vegas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 30, 2022, 12:50:33 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 29, 2022, 10:50:46 PM

I love how this group goes silent during a big drop.  No panic, no posts of frustration.  Peaceful silence.  Now that there is a little rally, people are calmly posting again.  Looks like we're down a little over 200K now from the high.  We'll see more dips, but the market is itching to recover.  Probably new highs by years end.
Anyway.  Nine more months till I grab my pack for some long distance hiking and retirement.
It's all good.

Hiking sounds incredible :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 30, 2022, 03:39:55 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 29, 2022, 10:50:46 PM

I love how this group goes silent during a big drop.  No panic, no posts of frustration.  Peaceful silence.  Now that there is a little rally, people are calmly posting again.  Looks like we're down a little over 200K now from the high.  We'll see more dips, but the market is itching to recover.  Probably new highs by years end.
Anyway.  Nine more months till I grab my pack for some long distance hiking and retirement.
It's all good.

Okay, I'll post a frustration. This might be the last year we have earned income. When the markets slid, I wanted to fund our Roths. DH wanted to wait, sure that the markets would slide even more. Hmmm, if today's rally sticks, we will have missed that opportunity... Oh, well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 30, 2022, 03:48:49 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 29, 2022, 10:50:46 PM

I love how this group goes silent during a big drop.  No panic, no posts of frustration.  Peaceful silence.  Now that there is a little rally, people are calmly posting again.  Looks like we're down a little over 200K now from the high.  We'll see more dips, but the market is itching to recover.  Probably new highs by years end.
Anyway.  Nine more months till I grab my pack for some long distance hiking and retirement.
It's all good.

Many of us in this thread have been through multiple crashes/downturns. I started saving and investing in the early 1990s and I still remember how slowly my 401K and brokerage balances increased for the first five years or so. Now, that required real faith in the future.

At this point, we have considerably more in net worth than when I retired in October 2020 and that amount was already way more than we needed for retirement!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on July 30, 2022, 08:51:37 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 29, 2022, 10:50:46 PM

I love how this group goes silent during a big drop.  No panic, no posts of frustration.  Peaceful silence.  Now that there is a little rally, people are calmly posting again.  Looks like we're down a little over 200K now from the high.  We'll see more dips, but the market is itching to recover.  Probably new highs by years end.
Anyway.  Nine more months till I grab my pack for some long distance hiking and retirement.
It's all good.

Just posted this over in my journal, but it's appropriate here, too.

**********

I missed doing our monthly "State of the Union" calculation at the end of last month.  The horrors!

Stock/bond investments, plus cash holdings, are down YTD.

Personal home and rental homes are up YTD.

Net worth with those changes is within a few hundred dollars difference YTD.

One of our two farms is having the land leveled.  (May already be done, it was getting close a week ago.)   In theory that raises the value of the land because more of it can be farmed and in less time, so at a lower cost.    Technically we'll still owe some of the cost of that, to be repaid over the next 7 years, with the expectation to pay it off with the increased yields.     

Since I have no real idea of how much leveling increases the farmland value, I'm just considering it a wash for now.   It's also possible that the leveling just now raised the value of the land up to the value I've considered it worth (if comparison farm values were for leveled land and ours weren't).    Close enough for now.

I'm pleased to see our 4 separate income streams working as intended.     

Our rental income went up this spring (and we raised it a lot less than comparable rents were going up.  No need to be dicks.)   Rental property values went up and will probably stay up.

Social security has done its job and medicare kicks in for me this November, so we should be saving $4k to $5k a year in health insurance costs next year.

Farm income was expected to drop to zero for two years due to the agreement we worked out with the new farmer.   Looks like we'll make a tidy sum by not planting and by improving the land.   Farmland socialism for the win!

Stocks are down for the year, as you know all too well.   But the S&P 500 is now down less than 14% YTD, which is a lot nicer than 22% down.    There are a lot of good indicators in the economy.   We've got full employment and then some which is keeping demand high, which has good implications for the economy over the long term.   We'll have to see what covid and the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the resulting interruptions to the world-wide economy will do.   

Our cash holdings will drop about $12K over the next three months as we pay property taxes and the annual insurance for a couple of houses that come due at the same time.   We have over $9k in the rental company checking account and expect (barring expensive repairs) to add $9k over the next three months.   Most of that expense can be deferred until the first week of January so an awkwardly timed expensive repair is a nuisance, not a cash flow problem of any note.

In other words, in a world where gobs of people have seen their net worth tumble, ours is actually being pretty stable.

And that's the comforting thought it both should be and was expected to be. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 01, 2022, 01:46:24 PM

Here's a little tip that I would offer up, based on what I did today.  I was feeling a little FOMO with respect to the market but yet not at all convinced its picked a direction, so I looked for a stock / ETF (I chose a stock) that I felt good about being at least 10-15% higher in a year.  Then I just bought a little -- a couple thousand $ worth.   Helped me deal mentally with the FOMO urge while not committing more heavily to a potential temporary move higher.  Just my 2 cents for the day --- probably worth the price of admission :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on August 02, 2022, 05:03:56 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 30, 2022, 03:48:49 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 29, 2022, 10:50:46 PM

I love how this group goes silent during a big drop.  No panic, no posts of frustration.  Peaceful silence.  Now that there is a little rally, people are calmly posting again.  Looks like we're down a little over 200K now from the high.  We'll see more dips, but the market is itching to recover.  Probably new highs by years end.
Anyway.  Nine more months till I grab my pack for some long distance hiking and retirement.
It's all good.

Many of us in this thread have been through multiple crashes/downturns. I started saving and investing in the early 1990s and I still remember how slowly my 401K and brokerage balances increased for the first five years or so. Now, that required real faith in the future.

At this point, we have considerably more in net worth than when I retired in October 2020 and that amount was already way more than we needed for retirement!

In the end the short term volatility in the market are and have always been huge compared to long term averages, but we often apply these long term averages to short term periods in our heads.  E.g. I have NEVER seen a New Years prediction for a year S&P500 move that is greater than one standard deviation (which looks like it would cover like -10% to +20%), so basically everyone always predicts fairly average moves.  I often see commentors on this site predicting their nest egg will hit its target in 2 years even when their investments greatly outweigh their annual savings, which seems odd to me given how volatile their high equity portfolio is and can very commonly drop over two years.    And perhaps the craziest example of the short term volatility is just looking at daily moves, using my average up days I can make the 4% withdraw I want in like 7 trading days.  But of course it goes up and down and its not until you look at the standard deviation for 10 year+ periods do you start seeing windows of numbers tight enough to make plans on.

But because one withdraws slowly, and the market does seem to come to roost close to those longer term averages over the length of a retirement, I have to just sit back and watch without too much worry or just not play this game.  Don't get me wrong, I've never been the one to cheer when the market drops, it does bother me, but I just look away.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 08, 2022, 10:48:53 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on August 02, 2022, 05:03:56 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 30, 2022, 03:48:49 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 29, 2022, 10:50:46 PM

I love how this group goes silent during a big drop.  No panic, no posts of frustration.  Peaceful silence.  Now that there is a little rally, people are calmly posting again.  Looks like we're down a little over 200K now from the high.  We'll see more dips, but the market is itching to recover.  Probably new highs by years end.
Anyway.  Nine more months till I grab my pack for some long distance hiking and retirement.
It's all good.

Many of us in this thread have been through multiple crashes/downturns. I started saving and investing in the early 1990s and I still remember how slowly my 401K and brokerage balances increased for the first five years or so. Now, that required real faith in the future.

At this point, we have considerably more in net worth than when I retired in October 2020 and that amount was already way more than we needed for retirement!

In the end the short term volatility in the market are and have always been huge compared to long term averages, but we often apply these long term averages to short term periods in our heads.  E.g. I have NEVER seen a New Years prediction for a year S&P500 move that is greater than one standard deviation (which looks like it would cover like -10% to +20%), so basically everyone always predicts fairly average moves.  I often see commentors on this site predicting their nest egg will hit its target in 2 years even when their investments greatly outweigh their annual savings, which seems odd to me given how volatile their high equity portfolio is and can very commonly drop over two years.    And perhaps the craziest example of the short term volatility is just looking at daily moves, using my average up days I can make the 4% withdraw I want in like 7 trading days.  But of course it goes up and down and its not until you look at the standard deviation for 10 year+ periods do you start seeing windows of numbers tight enough to make plans on.

But because one withdraws slowly, and the market does seem to come to roost close to those longer term averages over the length of a retirement, I have to just sit back and watch without too much worry or just not play this game.  Don't get me wrong, I've never been the one to cheer when the market drops, it does bother me, but I just look away.

Well said!  I suppose I am knowingly guilty of this in the way I do set short-term goals....for example, I set a goal for where my LNW would be at the end of 2022.   Suffice it to say, I'm NOT on track to achieve that one!  But I would expect some "catch up" effect to take hold in 2023 or 2024.  As of today, the S&P is sitting at ~5% below the 250 day moving average and about 13% below the prior high. 

Only other comment is that, despite your excellent advice, I still think it would mentally difficult for me to pull the RE trigger in a year like 2022.  Which is why I am glad that (*perhaps*) this decline is happening when I'm still a couple of years away from that point.   In the back of my mind, I know its largely psychological, BUT.....there is that feeling of not wanting to kick off the retirement years by withdrawing funds that are "more expensive" based on a temporary market decline.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 11, 2022, 10:19:26 PM

Well invested my August funds last week.  Now trying to figure out how I want to fund living when I max out my TSP in 2025 by middle of July.  Do I want more cash?, do I take money from investments, decisions, decision.  (July 2025 is when I’m immediate pension eligible upon retirement).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on August 15, 2022, 09:23:14 PM

Attended my high school reunion. The quarter of the class that showed up was a solid cross-section of the class, and they were totally chill. I didn’t see a lot of one up man ship, mostly just talking, reminiscing, asking how people are doing today. Some sad stories, some life transitions (out of marriages and looking for a fresh start). Lots of family pride. It was cool to see people really enjoying each other, the evening flowing along until late. I hope everyone else felt the same way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 17, 2022, 06:46:18 AM

Finally recrossed a milestone, the 3M point.  Had a week of vacation at the Florida house and a couple of days in Tampa.  Only 270 days left till I vacation into retirement. Recently found out we'll be grandparents next Spring.  That's a life changing event itself.  My wife is so excited.   Life is good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 17, 2022, 07:12:18 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 17, 2022, 06:46:18 AM

Finally recrossed a milestone, the 3M point.  Had a week of vacation at the Florida house and a couple of days in Tampa.  Only 270 days left till I vacation into retirement. Recently found out we'll be grandparents next Spring.  That's a life changing event itself.  My wife is so excited.   Life is good.

Counting the days - Sounds like you are ready

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 17, 2022, 02:14:49 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 17, 2022, 06:46:18 AM

Finally recrossed a milestone, the 3M point.  Had a week of vacation at the Florida house and a couple of days in Tampa.  Only 270 days left till I vacation into retirement. Recently found out we'll be grandparents next Spring.  That's a life changing event itself.  My wife is so excited.   Life is good.

Congrats for the grandkid and hope everything goes well!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 17, 2022, 05:06:05 PM

Congratulations!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 17, 2022, 07:56:08 PM

Congrats on the future human to spoil rotten then return to sender.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 17, 2022, 08:53:45 PM

@Dicey.  I’m sure you’ll appreciate one of my RE plans.  To volunteer at the headlands telling people to please don’t feed the coyotes.  They are already fat on local small dogs.  Well or give tours at the lighthouse.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on August 18, 2022, 12:57:56 PM

Checked valuation on some assets and updated the NW numbers.  A few months ago, I thought we were at risk of dropping back below 3, and now we're up through 3.6.  "Beyond" territory is in sight.  We're up half a million YTD, which is crazy.

I'm having trouble processing these numbers and thinking about what it means for how we choose to live our lives.  DW really wants to invest in a real estate opportunity.  It shows promise and I think it could work out well (lots of due diligence to do yet), but I just can't process more things to do with the new job still stretching my brain.  The other thing I'm feeling is that at this NW, what's the point of more money (through employment or RE development that takes a lot of work) when what I really want is 100% control over my own time?

I used to think my number was 1M.  When we crossed that, I though 2... no 2.5.  Then we blew through that, and now?  No idea.  4?  5?  I feel l still have things to give in the work world, but there's some basic hard work to be done, and entirely unmotivated to do it.

Sob, sob, sob.  We're rich, I'm feeling lazy, and I don't know what to do with myself.  First world problems...

Sorry for the disconnected thoughts.  Just needed to vent.  On with your normal programming...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Watchmaker on August 18, 2022, 03:18:16 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on August 18, 2022, 12:57:56 PM

I used to think my number was 1M.  When we crossed that, I though 2... no 2.5.  Then we blew through that, and now?  No idea.  4?  5?  I feel l still have things to give in the work world, but there's some basic hard work to be done, and entirely unmotivated to do it.

I had a similar trajectory. First it was 1M. Then 1.4M, 2.0M. When I got to 2.0M it was going up so fast I thought might as well get to 3, but then 4 will just be around the corner...

But then something changed in me this last year and 2.0M is feeling like enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 18, 2022, 03:38:07 PM

S&P 500 is down less than 11% YTD, compared to 21% earlier this year.   I expect our net worth will have gone up a bit since the end of last month.

But it really doesn't matter much.  We have plenty. :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on August 18, 2022, 10:13:17 PM

Quote from: Watchmaker on August 18, 2022, 03:18:16 PM

But then something changed in me this last year and 2.0M is feeling like enough.

Yeah, it’s changing for me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 19, 2022, 08:50:07 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on August 18, 2022, 12:57:56 PM

Checked valuation on some assets and updated the NW numbers.  A few months ago, I thought we were at risk of dropping back below 3, and now we're up through 3.6.  "Beyond" territory is in sight.  We're up half a million YTD, which is crazy.

I'm having trouble processing these numbers and thinking about what it means for how we choose to live our lives.  DW really wants to invest in a real estate opportunity.  It shows promise and I think it could work out well (lots of due diligence to do yet), but I just can't process more things to do with the new job still stretching my brain.  The other thing I'm feeling is that at this NW, what's the point of more money (through employment or RE development that takes a lot of work) when what I really want is 100% control over my own time?

I used to think my number was 1M.  When we crossed that, I though 2... no 2.5.  Then we blew through that, and now?  No idea.  4?  5?  I feel l still have things to give in the work world, but there's some basic hard work to be done, and entirely unmotivated to do it.

Sob, sob, sob.  We're rich, I'm feeling lazy, and I don't know what to do with myself.  First world problems...

Sorry for the disconnected thoughts.  Just needed to vent.  On with your normal programming...

As the numbers get bigger, it does become a distraction.  I have plenty of days now where work income is meaningless - 1% market movements increase or decrease my net worth by months of salary.  But I don't have any control over that fluctuation, whereas I can still feel good about putting in a good day of work or being efficient and saving a few bucks.  I do have to focus more on what is important - taxes, asset allocation, and big ticket items - and I just have to be willing to let the little things go.  Tipping generously and stepping up philanthropy has helped maintain this mindset. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on August 19, 2022, 09:34:15 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 01, 2022, 01:46:24 PM

Here's a little tip that I would offer up, based on what I did today.  I was feeling a little FOMO with respect to the market but yet not at all convinced its picked a direction, so I looked for a stock / ETF (I chose a stock) that I felt good about being at least 10-15% higher in a year.  Then I just bought a little -- a couple thousand $ worth.   Helped me deal mentally with the FOMO urge while not committing more heavily to a potential temporary move higher.  Just my 2 cents for the day --- probably worth the price of admission :-)

I have never felt this urge, but since it was the first of the month, I bought about a thousand bucks worth of the entire equity market. Just like every other month. 401k of course.

Whe you say you had FOMO, does that mean you don’t make regular investments and stay in cash? Or that you don’t have much equity exposure in general? ETA: I see you put more info here and there, so never mind.

For the general thread topic, we only update our “official” spreadsheet once a year, but I eyeball things now and then and we should be getting back close to where we were this time last year. Ok, maybe Spring of last year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on August 19, 2022, 03:20:53 PM

I showed my husband the NW statements I update monthly, and have been updating monthly for a long time. It took what felt like forever to get to $1M, and only 5 years to get from $1.3M to $3.0M. So I don’t think the change in net worth amounts have actually sunk in. We still feel like $1M people. Of course our dream house is probably $1.8M in CA, so we have some realignment or additional earning to do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 20, 2022, 01:03:52 AM

Quote from: couponvan on August 19, 2022, 03:20:53 PM

I showed my husband the NW statements I update monthly, and have been updating monthly for a long time. It took what felt like forever to get to $1M, and only 5 years to get from $1.3M to $3.0M. So I don’t think the change in net worth amounts have actually sunk in. We still feel like $1M people. Of course our dream house is probably $1.8M in CA, so we have some realignment or additional earning to do.

I hope he was impressed with your efforts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 20, 2022, 03:53:54 AM

Quote from: couponvan on August 19, 2022, 03:20:53 PM

I showed my husband the NW statements I update monthly, and have been updating monthly for a long time. It took what felt like forever to get to $1M, and only 5 years to get from $1.3M to $3.0M. So I don’t think the change in net worth amounts have actually sunk in. We still feel like $1M people. Of course our dream house is probably $1.8M in CA, so we have some realignment or additional earning to do.

That feeling of unreality of the numbers in the brokerage account statements never goes away completely! For people who have accumulated their savings over a long period of time, like most of us here, the numbers won't feel concrete until you actually start spending money.

Here is when I really started top understand how much we had saved: We did a big (over $125k) home renovation project right after I retired in 2020. We finally fixed a number of lingering problems with our house that had been annoyances for the twenty five years we have lived here. Also, I got a proper basement workshop for my hobbies. We paid for this project entirely out of savings. After the project was over, I updated my spreadsheets found that it had no discernible impact on our retirement...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on August 20, 2022, 05:43:54 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 20, 2022, 01:03:52 AM

Quote from: couponvan on August 19, 2022, 03:20:53 PM

I showed my husband the NW statements I update monthly, and have been updating monthly for a long time. It took what felt like forever to get to $1M, and only 5 years to get from $1.3M to $3.0M. So I don’t think the change in net worth amounts have actually sunk in. We still feel like $1M people. Of course our dream house is probably $1.8M in CA, so we have some realignment or additional earning to do.

I hope he was impressed with your efforts.

Sounds like their efforts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 20, 2022, 06:34:10 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 20, 2022, 03:53:54 AM

Quote from: couponvan on August 19, 2022, 03:20:53 PM

I showed my husband the NW statements I update monthly, and have been updating monthly for a long time. It took what felt like forever to get to $1M, and only 5 years to get from $1.3M to $3.0M. So I don’t think the change in net worth amounts have actually sunk in. We still feel like $1M people. Of course our dream house is probably $1.8M in CA, so we have some realignment or additional earning to do.

That feeling of unreality of the numbers in the brokerage account statements never goes away completely! For people who have accumulated their savings over a long period of time, like most of us here, the numbers won't feel concrete until you actually start spending money.

Here is when I really started top understand how much we had saved: We did a big (over $125k) home renovation project right after I retired in 2020. We finally fixed a number of lingering problems with our house that had been annoyances for the twenty five years we have lived here. Also, I got a proper basement workshop for my hobbies. We paid for this project entirely out of savings. After the project was over, I updated my spreadsheets found that it had no discernible impact on our retirement...

Some of that has also been due to the relentlessly bullish market.  We'll get a taste of $125k in spending have more effect if we get in to a 'real' bear market and not just the froth being blown off the top!  I'm thinking a 2008 - 2009 style drop.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 20, 2022, 01:17:44 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 20, 2022, 06:34:10 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 20, 2022, 03:53:54 AM

Quote from: couponvan on August 19, 2022, 03:20:53 PM

I showed my husband the NW statements I update monthly, and have been updating monthly for a long time. It took what felt like forever to get to $1M, and only 5 years to get from $1.3M to $3.0M. So I don’t think the change in net worth amounts have actually sunk in. We still feel like $1M people. Of course our dream house is probably $1.8M in CA, so we have some realignment or additional earning to do.

That feeling of unreality of the numbers in the brokerage account statements never goes away completely! For people who have accumulated their savings over a long period of time, like most of us here, the numbers won't feel concrete until you actually start spending money.

Here is when I really started top understand how much we had saved: We did a big (over $125k) home renovation project right after I retired in 2020. We finally fixed a number of lingering problems with our house that had been annoyances for the twenty five years we have lived here. Also, I got a proper basement workshop for my hobbies. We paid for this project entirely out of savings. After the project was over, I updated my spreadsheets found that it had no discernible impact on our retirement...

Some of that has also been due to the relentlessly bullish market.  We'll get a taste of $125k in spending have more effect if we get in to a 'real' bear market and not just the froth being blown off the top!  I'm thinking a 2008 - 2009 style drop.

This is true and I guess points to the fact that you need sufficient "safe" investments to carry you through. If I remember right 2008 was a 4 year event (i.e 4 years between, the top of the market in 2007 to when when it crossed the same point). So in theory if you have 2 years of cash and another 2 to 5 years in bonds you should be able to avoid spending any stocks which of course take a major pounding in a bear market... "Captain Obvious" statement I know..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on August 20, 2022, 04:37:15 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on August 20, 2022, 05:43:54 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 20, 2022, 01:03:52 AM

Quote from: couponvan on August 19, 2022, 03:20:53 PM

I showed my husband the NW statements I update monthly, and have been updating monthly for a long time. It took what felt like forever to get to $1M, and only 5 years to get from $1.3M to $3.0M. So I don’t think the change in net worth amounts have actually sunk in. We still feel like $1M people. Of course our dream house is probably $1.8M in CA, so we have some realignment or additional earning to do.

I hope he was impressed with your efforts.

Sounds like their efforts.

I think she meant my statements monthly vs earning efforts. LOL!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 21, 2022, 03:42:56 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 20, 2022, 06:34:10 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 20, 2022, 03:53:54 AM

Quote from: couponvan on August 19, 2022, 03:20:53 PM

I showed my husband the NW statements I update monthly, and have been updating monthly for a long time. It took what felt like forever to get to $1M, and only 5 years to get from $1.3M to $3.0M. So I don’t think the change in net worth amounts have actually sunk in. We still feel like $1M people. Of course our dream house is probably $1.8M in CA, so we have some realignment or additional earning to do.

That feeling of unreality of the numbers in the brokerage account statements never goes away completely! For people who have accumulated their savings over a long period of time, like most of us here, the numbers won't feel concrete until you actually start spending money.

Here is when I really started top understand how much we had saved: We did a big (over $125k) home renovation project right after I retired in 2020. We finally fixed a number of lingering problems with our house that had been annoyances for the twenty five years we have lived here. Also, I got a proper basement workshop for my hobbies. We paid for this project entirely out of savings. After the project was over, I updated my spreadsheets found that it had no discernible impact on our retirement...

Some of that has also been due to the relentlessly bullish market.  We'll get a taste of $125k in spending have more effect if we get in to a 'real' bear market and not just the froth being blown off the top!  I'm thinking a 2008 - 2009 style drop.

That may all be true but its orthogonal to the point I was trying to make :-)

My observation is this: if you have been a mustachian and have been living frugally and investing diligently for a long time, the numbers in your account statements start to feel abstract after a while. If you have overshot your savings goals, its not a bad idea to spend some money so you get a better understanding of what you could do with your savings.

When I started working in the early 1990s, my wife and I thought it would be a good achievement if we could somehow afford to retire at 65. I just updated my retirement model and we are on track for a 1% withdrawal rate. We have wildly overshot our savings goals - we could retire comfortably solely based on our taxable accounts.

Incidentally, let me give a plug for the Pralana retirement calculator which is one of the tools that I use. Since it does tax calculations, I find it more useful than many of the other retirement calculators that make the simplistic assumption that you have all of your money in a Roth IRA.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on August 21, 2022, 04:12:54 AM

@2sk22, is the Bronze version worth checking out? Or only the paid version?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 21, 2022, 06:39:36 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on August 21, 2022, 04:12:54 AM

@2sk22, is the Bronze version worth checking out? Or only the paid version?

I took a quick look on the website and I found that the bronze package missing the section in which you enter the details of your financial assets. This seems like a significant deficiency but since it's free, it should be worth trying it out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 21, 2022, 12:14:28 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 20, 2022, 03:53:54 AM

Quote from: couponvan on August 19, 2022, 03:20:53 PM

I showed my husband the NW statements I update monthly, and have been updating monthly for a long time. It took what felt like forever to get to $1M, and only 5 years to get from $1.3M to $3.0M. So I don’t think the change in net worth amounts have actually sunk in. We still feel like $1M people. Of course our dream house is probably $1.8M in CA, so we have some realignment or additional earning to do.

That feeling of unreality of the numbers in the brokerage account statements never goes away completely! For people who have accumulated their savings over a long period of time, like most of us here, the numbers won't feel concrete until you actually start spending money.

Here is when I really started top understand how much we had saved: We did a big (over $125k) home renovation project right after I retired in 2020. We finally fixed a number of lingering problems with our house that had been annoyances for the twenty five years we have lived here. Also, I got a proper basement workshop for my hobbies. We paid for this project entirely out of savings. After the project was over, I updated my spreadsheets found that it had no discernible impact on our retirement...

It is unreal and sometimes feel like it could all evaporate in a blink of an eye.....so my stupid way to fake myself out is to just assume I have 25% less than I do and see how I feel.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: CANStache on August 25, 2022, 12:54:21 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 21, 2022, 06:39:36 AM

I took a quick look on the website and I found that the bronze package missing the section in which you enter the details of your financial assets. This seems like a significant deficiency but since it's free, it should be worth trying it out.

Significant deficiency is the most polite way of putting that :)  If that's truly the case, I don't see how the bronze is useful.  And I (still) hesitate to send someone $100 for an XLS that looks more comprehensive than my own, but....how much more?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 26, 2022, 02:47:08 PM

Quote from: CANStache on August 25, 2022, 12:54:21 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 21, 2022, 06:39:36 AM

I took a quick look on the website and I found that the bronze package missing the section in which you enter the details of your financial assets. This seems like a significant deficiency but since it's free, it should be worth trying it out.

Significant deficiency is the most polite way of putting that :)  If that's truly the case, I don't see how the bronze is useful.  And I (still) hesitate to send someone $100 for an XLS that looks more comprehensive than my own, but....how much more?

If you already have a good spreadsheet, you may not really need Pralana Gold. The one big reason to use Pralana is if you have a big taxable portfolio. In my household, we have as much in taxable accounts as we do in tax advantaged accounts. I had a couple of goals in using Pralana: 1. To see how much we would need to withdraw from our taxable accounts and 2. How much headroom is there for Roth conversions? I think I was able to get answers for both questions.

I also feel that this application is really pushing the limits of what you can do in the form of an Excel spreadsheet. It helps that Excel offers a huge library of financial functions which probably greatly reduces the amount of code which has to be written. On the other hand, the user interface is pretty bad.

If you have an M1 Mac, there is one more constraint which is that you need to be aware of: to run Pralana, you have to run Excel under Rosetta as there is a Mac Excel bug that Microsoft has apparently been refusing to fix. I was able to run Pralana on my M1 MacBook Air but it was a nuisance to remember to turn on Rosetta on each time I ran Pralana. I found it easier to run Pralana on a cheap compact PC with Windows that I had lying around.

The biggest problem with all of these retirement planning tools is that they are unable to explain their calculations. Ideally I would like to be able to click on a number and have the app explain exactly how it was computed. I am toying with the idea of writing my own retirement modeling app that would provide this feature and be able to handle scenarios like mine where there are amounts in taxable accounts. I am pretty sure I could write such an app to meet my own personal needs but it would be a lot of work to package it up and distribute it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 29, 2022, 06:45:03 AM

Maybe this week presents an opportunity for those of us with a *little* cash on the sidelines to start putting some of it to work....think we can thank Powell for this opportunity.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 30, 2022, 07:34:13 AM

Ok, finally, a retirement article that I enjoyed.  For those interested, search for "Here's what a $2 million retirement looks like in America" by the Wall Street Journal.  The article gives 4 case studies from 4 people in different walks of life, with the common thread that they were all in the $2-4M net worth range at the time of their retirement.

Although its impossible to extrapolate too much from it, because everyone's circumstance is different, I thought it was an interesting read.   For me there seemed to be a few takeaways: (1) all seemed to be successful in becoming engaged in other activities, hobbies, interests since their retirement; (2) all seemed to have a comfortable lifestyle -- not extravagant, but comfortable; (3) 2 of the four had second homes, which I'm sure is an added expense that I don't *plan* on having; and (4) although some did have supplemental sources of income in retirement to help, most had retirement account balances that had not gone down too appreciably since their retirement.

Would be curious to get the reactions from those in this thread that have already pulled the trigger on retirement.  I found the article somewhat assuring, that all the spreadsheets and retirement calculators etc don't seem to be far off. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on August 30, 2022, 08:30:40 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 30, 2022, 07:34:13 AM

Ok, finally, a retirement article that I enjoyed.  For those interested, search for "Here's what a $2 million retirement looks like in America" by the Wall Street Journal.  The article gives 4 case studies from 4 people in different walks of life, with the common thread that they were all in the $2-4M net worth range at the time of their retirement.

Although its impossible to extrapolate too much from it, because everyone's circumstance is different, I thought it was an interesting read.   For me there seemed to be a few takeaways: (1) all seemed to be successful in becoming engaged in other activities, hobbies, interests since their retirement; (2) all seemed to have a comfortable lifestyle -- not extravagant, but comfortable; (3) 2 of the four had second homes, which I'm sure is an added expense that I don't *plan* on having; and (4) although some did have supplemental sources of income in retirement to help, most had retirement account balances that had not gone down too appreciably since their retirement.

Would be curious to get the reactions from those in this thread that have already pulled the trigger on retirement.  I found the article somewhat assuring, that all the spreadsheets and retirement calculators etc don't seem to be far off.

I second the recommendation.  The article is available in Apple News even if you are not a WSJ subscriber.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 30, 2022, 09:05:19 AM

Interesting article...but some things.

"Mr. Fitzgerald considers himself fortunate as he also has a roughly $6,900 monthly pension after taxes and insurance."

Uhh...I'd be willing to bet 99.9% of the population won't see a pension that large...and most no pension whatsoever.  And we wonder why governments are having trouble paying pension obligations, etc...


"As interest rates have risen, he’s ( James Compton) concerned about the $200,000 adjustable-rate mortgage he’s still paying off on his three-bedroom Chicago townhome. He is unsure what the loan’s rate will be when it resets next year so he is considering his options including eventually selling his home.

“Don’t go into retirement with a mortgage,” he said."

I'd second that...but others here will disagree, for sure. 

And all of them are relatively old...I wish they would have had at least one 'early' retiree in the group.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 30, 2022, 09:12:05 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 30, 2022, 07:34:13 AM

Ok, finally, a retirement article that I enjoyed.  For those interested, search for "Here's what a $2 million retirement looks like in America" by the Wall Street Journal.  The article gives 4 case studies from 4 people in different walks of life, with the common thread that they were all in the $2-4M net worth range at the time of their retirement.

Although its impossible to extrapolate too much from it, because everyone's circumstance is different, I thought it was an interesting read.   For me there seemed to be a few takeaways: (1) all seemed to be successful in becoming engaged in other activities, hobbies, interests since their retirement; (2) all seemed to have a comfortable lifestyle -- not extravagant, but comfortable; (3) 2 of the four had second homes, which I'm sure is an added expense that I don't *plan* on having; and (4) although some did have supplemental sources of income in retirement to help, most had retirement account balances that had not gone down too appreciably since their retirement.

Would be curious to get the reactions from those in this thread that have already pulled the trigger on retirement.  I found the article somewhat assuring, that all the spreadsheets and retirement calculators etc don't seem to be far off.

This article was interesting but none of the people seem to be particularly relevant to this group. The retired policeman is a case in point:

Quote

In total, Mr. Fitzgerald estimates they pay about $12,000 in monthly expenses including mortgage payments for their Maryland home and a Delaware beach house. The couple has about $400,000 in debt including mortgages and car loans. 

This seems like a very high burn rate! But maybe that's the Boglehead in me speaking :-)

I am fat FIREd and our annual expenses are only about $90,000 (excluding daughters college costs which comes from a separate non-retirement account)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 30, 2022, 09:18:06 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 30, 2022, 09:12:05 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 30, 2022, 07:34:13 AM

Ok, finally, a retirement article that I enjoyed.  For those interested, search for "Here's what a $2 million retirement looks like in America" by the Wall Street Journal.  The article gives 4 case studies from 4 people in different walks of life, with the common thread that they were all in the $2-4M net worth range at the time of their retirement.

Although its impossible to extrapolate too much from it, because everyone's circumstance is different, I thought it was an interesting read.   For me there seemed to be a few takeaways: (1) all seemed to be successful in becoming engaged in other activities, hobbies, interests since their retirement; (2) all seemed to have a comfortable lifestyle -- not extravagant, but comfortable; (3) 2 of the four had second homes, which I'm sure is an added expense that I don't *plan* on having; and (4) although some did have supplemental sources of income in retirement to help, most had retirement account balances that had not gone down too appreciably since their retirement.

Would be curious to get the reactions from those in this thread that have already pulled the trigger on retirement.  I found the article somewhat assuring, that all the spreadsheets and retirement calculators etc don't seem to be far off.

This article was interesting but none of the people seem to be particularly relevant to this group. The retired policeman is a case in point:

Quote

In total, Mr. Fitzgerald estimates they pay about $12,000 in monthly expenses including mortgage payments for their Maryland home and a Delaware beach house. The couple has about $400,000 in debt including mortgages and car loans.

This seems like a very high burn rate! But maybe that's the Boglehead in me speaking :-)

I am fat FIREd and our annual expenses are only about $90,000 (excluding daughters college costs which comes from a separate non-retirement account)

Very high burn rate...However, I'd bet the property taxes on those two properties are QUITE high.  Prop taxes are insane out there.  I'd stress again that he has a $6900 a month pension...that also seems pretty insane...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 30, 2022, 09:37:04 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 30, 2022, 09:18:06 AM

Very high burn rate...However, I'd bet the property taxes on those two properties are QUITE high.  Prop taxes are insane out there.  I'd stress again that he has a $6900 a month pension...that also seems pretty insane...

I just don't get the desire to own multiple houses. Why have the hassle of maintaining and paying for a second home. Instead, why not just use AirBnB or VRBO and find a rental whenever you want one? There are some fantastic deals out there - we just got back from a wonderful short vacation in New Hampshire. We loved the house we rented via AirBnB but have zero desire to own it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 30, 2022, 09:48:22 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 30, 2022, 07:34:13 AM

Would be curious to get the reactions from those in this thread that have already pulled the trigger on retirement.  I found the article somewhat assuring, that all the spreadsheets and retirement calculators etc don't seem to be far off.

Stocks, bonds, cash, mortgage notes = ~$1.6m at end of May of 2018, ~$1.54m end of July, 2022.

But we also transferred some of that wealth into real estate.   

Total net worth ~$2.75m end of May, 2018, ~$3.66m end of July, 2022.    To be fair, ~$500k of that is due to getting more accurate valuations on farmland, and so it's possible our net worth back in May, 2018 was ~$3.25m instead.

Either way, we have no complaints.  Our income has gone up with SS and rents and expenses have gone down with ACA and Medicare. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fru-Gal on August 30, 2022, 09:58:43 AM

I enjoyed that article and some of the comments. I’m in this thread because for a minute there between the house and my retirement accounts we were at 2 million. But my investments have dropped significantly. That said the article makes me so glad I retired this year at age 51. It would be interesting to see a similar article with people retiring with around $1 million in investments (my million is now well in the rearview, but I expect it to return). I have only sold $10,000 in stock so far. I actually need to sell a little bit more to make enough income to keep my ACA coverage for the family where I want it.

Owning two houses seems like insanity. The entire reason I’m able to do all this is because my property taxes and mortgage payment are incredibly low given my high cost of living area.

I remember reading that white coat investor guy talking about physician retirement and the rule was one practice, one house, one spouse 😂 .

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on August 30, 2022, 10:01:50 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 30, 2022, 09:37:04 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 30, 2022, 09:18:06 AM

Very high burn rate...However, I'd bet the property taxes on those two properties are QUITE high.  Prop taxes are insane out there.  I'd stress again that he has a $6900 a month pension...that also seems pretty insane...

I just don't get the desire to own multiple houses. Why have the hassle of maintaining and paying for a second home. Instead, why not just use AirBnB or VRBO and find a rental whenever you want one? There are some fantastic deals out there - we just got back from a wonderful short vacation in New Hampshire. We loved the house we rented via AirBnB but have zero desire to own it.

The article doesn't do a good job of saying whether or not they have rented out these second properties or not.  I have friends who have a coastal second house in a SC beach town, but they rent it out and have only used it for themselves a few times.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on August 30, 2022, 10:14:58 AM

Our second home costs about $8,500 per year to own. I would get rid of it, but one long weekend in an air BnB is going to be $6,000 for a Die With Zero 50th birthday experience. In retirement I will be able to spend time at my $8,500 per year second home while renting my regular house for Die With Zero folks money. Renting my main home for ridiculous amounts on occasions will hopefully pay dividends. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 30, 2022, 05:50:08 PM

Quote from: Fru-Gal on August 30, 2022, 09:58:43 AM

I remember reading that white coat investor guy talking about physician retirement and the rule was one practice, one house, one spouse 😂 .

Reminds me of that other rule....if it F*#KS, flies or floats then rent it!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 30, 2022, 06:09:36 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 30, 2022, 09:48:22 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 30, 2022, 07:34:13 AM

Would be curious to get the reactions from those in this thread that have already pulled the trigger on retirement.  I found the article somewhat assuring, that all the spreadsheets and retirement calculators etc don't seem to be far off.

Stocks, bonds, cash, mortgage notes = ~$1.6m at end of May of 2018, ~$1.54m end of July, 2022.

But we also transferred some of that wealth into real estate.   

Total net worth ~$2.75m end of May, 2018, ~$3.66m end of July, 2022.    To be fair, ~$500k of that is due to getting more accurate valuations on farmland, and so it's possible our net worth back in May, 2018 was ~$3.25m instead.

Either way, we have no complaints.  Our income has gone up with SS and rents and expenses have gone down with ACA and Medicare.

Hearing experiences like this gives a wannabe like me some courage that this is doable.  Although I don't have any rental properties, pension etc. to offset cash burn in retirement (other than the hope of Social Security at some point in the future), it is still encouraging to hear stories about people who have been retired for several years and their invested assets have not even gone down by any appreciable amount!

Now, I'm not sure that I'm as frugal as others on this thread, but it still brings confidence that this is all controllable once I hit a reasonable starting point.  At about $2.1 invested and $2.6 nw, I'm still not there IMO.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on August 30, 2022, 06:33:29 PM

Quote from: arcturus on August 30, 2022, 06:09:36 PM

Although I don't have any rental properties, pension etc. to offset cash burn in retirement (other than the hope of Social Security at some point in the future), it is still encouraging to hear stories about people who have been retired for several years and their invested assets have not even gone down by any appreciable amount!

I retired in 2016.  Since that time I have paid for all my living expenses and 30 semesters of private high school and college for my three kids.  My net worth is approximately double what it was the day I retired (and it was more than double earlier this year before the market pull back).

There are several reasons for this:

1.  I kept a high stock allocation (generally over 90%) during that period of time and stocks have done well.
2.  I have had a very low withdrawal rate (generally under 2%, and often under 1%) during that period of time.  I'm just not a big spender.
3.  I have a variety of small income streams that are not related to my portfolio that I did not include in my FIRE readiness checks.  Individually they are not big, but in aggregate add up to about half of my annual spending.
4.  Because I am not a big spender, I can keep my taxable income relatively low.  As a result, I really pay little to nothing in income taxes.(*)

(*) Yes, I'm aware of Roth conversions and the tax torpedo later in life.  I'm managing this as well as I can; however with the numerous tax breaks that phase in and out at various income levels, I end up hitting a high effective marginal tax rate at quite a low income, so Roth conversions beyond a modest level don't pencil out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 30, 2022, 08:04:03 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 30, 2022, 09:05:19 AM

Interesting article...but some things.

"Mr. Fitzgerald considers himself fortunate as he also has a roughly $6,900 monthly pension after taxes and insurance."

Uhh...I'd be willing to bet 99.9% of the population won't see a pension that large...and most no pension whatsoever.  And we wonder why governments are having trouble paying pension obligations, etc...

Ignore for a moment that it is AFTER Taxes AND
Insurance at 4% rule that's like $2.07M, I get that PV o pension not same as 4% on investment portfolio but it is also guaranteed.  But yeah fat FIRE, which I am a fan of btw

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 31, 2022, 06:23:51 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 30, 2022, 08:04:03 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 30, 2022, 09:05:19 AM

Interesting article...but some things.

"Mr. Fitzgerald considers himself fortunate as he also has a roughly $6,900 monthly pension after taxes and insurance."

Uhh...I'd be willing to bet 99.9% of the population won't see a pension that large...and most no pension whatsoever.  And we wonder why governments are having trouble paying pension obligations, etc...

Ignore for a moment that it is AFTER Taxes AND
Insurance at 4% rule that's like $2.07M, I get that PV o pension not same as 4% on investment portfolio but it is also guaranteed.  But yeah fat FIRE, which I am a fan of btw

Pensions are an amazing thing.  And its amazing that they still exist without bankrupting every company / govt that had a pension plan.  But good for those who are on the receiving end!  I just wonder how many people have been done a dis-service by the pension plan by thinking that's all they needed, only to have their employer recognize that they can no longer pay it and change the terms.

To make myself feel a bit better about not having a pension, I took a look at our (mine + DW) "expected" social security payouts, once we hit 67.  If I say that payout will continue for 20 years, and adjust for ~2.5% annual inflation increases, the present value at 7% (inflation + 4%) is around $725K before taxes.   Not $2M by any stretch, but better than $0.   Of course, I know the "expected" benefit above will come down by virtue of retiring early.   I have not factored that math into the equation, nor do I know how to. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on August 31, 2022, 07:12:04 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 30, 2022, 06:09:36 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 30, 2022, 09:48:22 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 30, 2022, 07:34:13 AM

Would be curious to get the reactions from those in this thread that have already pulled the trigger on retirement.  I found the article somewhat assuring, that all the spreadsheets and retirement calculators etc don't seem to be far off.

Stocks, bonds, cash, mortgage notes = ~$1.6m at end of May of 2018, ~$1.54m end of July, 2022.

But we also transferred some of that wealth into real estate.   

Total net worth ~$2.75m end of May, 2018, ~$3.66m end of July, 2022.    To be fair, ~$500k of that is due to getting more accurate valuations on farmland, and so it's possible our net worth back in May, 2018 was ~$3.25m instead.

Either way, we have no complaints.  Our income has gone up with SS and rents and expenses have gone down with ACA and Medicare.

Hearing experiences like this gives a wannabe like me some courage that this is doable.  Although I don't have any rental properties, pension etc. to offset cash burn in retirement (other than the hope of Social Security at some point in the future), it is still encouraging to hear stories about people who have been retired for several years and their invested assets have not even gone down by any appreciable amount!

Now, I'm not sure that I'm as frugal as others on this thread, but it still brings confidence that this is all controllable once I hit a reasonable starting point.  At about $2.1 invested and $2.6 nw, I'm still not there IMO.

I'm about .5 behind you.  NW is close to peeking into this thread, but I want the invested over the line before I pull the plug.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 31, 2022, 10:19:10 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 31, 2022, 06:23:51 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 30, 2022, 08:04:03 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 30, 2022, 09:05:19 AM

Interesting article...but some things.

"Mr. Fitzgerald considers himself fortunate as he also has a roughly $6,900 monthly pension after taxes and insurance."

Uhh...I'd be willing to bet 99.9% of the population won't see a pension that large...and most no pension whatsoever.  And we wonder why governments are having trouble paying pension obligations, etc...

Ignore for a moment that it is AFTER Taxes AND
Insurance at 4% rule that's like $2.07M, I get that PV o pension not same as 4% on investment portfolio but it is also guaranteed.  But yeah fat FIRE, which I am a fan of btw

Pensions are an amazing thing.  And its amazing that they still exist without bankrupting every company / govt that had a pension plan.  But good for those who are on the receiving end!  I just wonder how many people have been done a dis-service by the pension plan by thinking that's all they needed, only to have their employer recognize that they can no longer pay it and change the terms.

To make myself feel a bit better about not having a pension, I took a look at our (mine + DW) "expected" social security payouts, once we hit 67.  If I say that payout will continue for 20 years, and adjust for ~2.5% annual inflation increases, the present value at 7% (inflation + 4%) is around $725K before taxes.   Not $2M by any stretch, but better than $0.   Of course, I know the "expected" benefit above will come down by virtue of retiring early.   I have not factored that math into the equation, nor do I know how to.

I won't get a pension either...but my wife will.  However, it won't *anywhere near* $6,900 a month.  That example in the article is straight up insane...lol.  Any pension funds will most likely be earmarked to go towards health insurance.  Also, we are planning taking social security at 62.  I've done the math, multiple times, and the crossover where waiting is beneficial is such that it isn't work taking the risk, especially due to the fact my wife has a chronic medical condition.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 31, 2022, 11:54:34 AM

My Pension will be +/- that Gross a month not net for the first 15 years when I a $1,500 a month social security supplement.  But I’m a highest “normal” Fed salary Special category employee.  (People like Dr Fauci have even more special pay scales).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on September 01, 2022, 08:44:26 AM

Market drops means the net worth is down $45k since July.   No big deal.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on September 02, 2022, 02:52:27 PM

@SwordGuy , yeah, I'm not sure how much I'm down since July, but the past week has been a regression for sure.  Treading water in the $2.0 to $2.1 range depending on the day.  I optimistically think that this is the last roar from the bear market, unclear when this one ends, but it is giving me a chance to put what little cash I have on the sidelines back in the market.  Have been dribbling a little in here and there.  So its been good for that, I guess.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on September 03, 2022, 08:03:58 AM

@SwordGuy are in the same boat. Treading water, but grateful to be at the tale end of the accumulation phase versus the beginning phase.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 04, 2022, 08:16:36 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 30, 2022, 09:37:04 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 30, 2022, 09:18:06 AM

Very high burn rate...However, I'd bet the property taxes on those two properties are QUITE high.  Prop taxes are insane out there.  I'd stress again that he has a $6900 a month pension...that also seems pretty insane...

I just don't get the desire to own multiple houses. Why have the hassle of maintaining and paying for a second home. Instead, why not just use AirBnB or VRBO and find a rental whenever you want one? There are some fantastic deals out there - we just got back from a wonderful short vacation in New Hampshire. We loved the house we rented via AirBnB but have zero desire to own it.

I'm not sure if it is related to a certain point in life (e.g. empty nest), economic conditions (increased real estate equity), or maybe inflation hedging / portfolio diversification...  but many of our friends that sold their primary homes this past year are now on to buying second homes while they figure out their primary situation.  They have gone real estate crazy!  Time will tell if this was a good idea or if the bubble will burst, but they are renting out their 'second' homes for outrageous amounts right now and could make a tidy profit if they wanted to sell.

I'm not opposed to the idea of having a second home someday, my Dad has a modest cabin near a lake and there is something special about making it your own and building a relationship with the community.  It'll be a fun retirement project and could serve as a transition when we are ready to move out of Houston.  If we get another real estate collapse a la 2009 I might move my timeline up.  I view having high interest rates as being a good thing as long as I buy a home I could pay off.  I did pretty well last time getting a good deal on our current home and refinancing as rates dropped...  Wouldn't mind doing that again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on September 06, 2022, 10:50:02 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 04, 2022, 08:16:36 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 30, 2022, 09:37:04 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 30, 2022, 09:18:06 AM

Very high burn rate...However, I'd bet the property taxes on those two properties are QUITE high.  Prop taxes are insane out there.  I'd stress again that he has a $6900 a month pension...that also seems pretty insane...

I just don't get the desire to own multiple houses. Why have the hassle of maintaining and paying for a second home. Instead, why not just use AirBnB or VRBO and find a rental whenever you want one? There are some fantastic deals out there - we just got back from a wonderful short vacation in New Hampshire. We loved the house we rented via AirBnB but have zero desire to own it.

I'm not sure if it is related to a certain point in life (e.g. empty nest), economic conditions (increased real estate equity), or maybe inflation hedging / portfolio diversification...  but many of our friends that sold their primary homes this past year are now on to buying second homes while they figure out their primary situation.  They have gone real estate crazy!  Time will tell if this was a good idea or if the bubble will burst, but they are renting out their 'second' homes for outrageous amounts right now and could make a tidy profit if they wanted to sell.

I'm not opposed to the idea of having a second home someday, my Dad has a modest cabin near a lake and there is something special about making it your own and building a relationship with the community.  It'll be a fun retirement project and could serve as a transition when we are ready to move out of Houston.  If we get another real estate collapse a la 2009 I might move my timeline up.  I view having high interest rates as being a good thing as long as I buy a home I could pay off.  I did pretty well last time getting a good deal on our current home and refinancing as rates dropped...  Wouldn't mind doing that again.

I've seen several high net worth individuals where a second home is more of a 'mid life crisis' thing than anything else.  They often end up regretting the purchase.

I'd agree that a 'modest cabin'. isn't in the same category as a 'second home'.   The problem is, in my neck of the woods (Minnesota), modest cabins don't exist anymore.  They *used* to exist....but any modest cabins that exist physically don't exist at modest cabin prices anymore.  And far too many well to do folks have purchased land that *had* a modest cabin, and then proceeded to tear it down and build CabinMcMansion on the land.  Pretty sad stuff.   If you don't already have a cabin in your family, your are pretty much SOL at this point.

On a personal note, my grandparents had a cabin up to the point where I was in my late teens and I have many fond memories of it.  Unfortunately, it is long since sold. Apparently my mother and her siblings couldn't afford to take it over at the time my grandparents were forced to sell. I *really* wish it was still in the family.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 07, 2022, 06:25:11 PM

Decided to recategorize how we calculate net worth.  I've all but decided that I will take the annuity style pension vs the lump sum.  I've still got about 250 days to decide.  The annuity with 100/100 employee/survivor will be about $4500 a month.  There will be no COLA.  Yes interest rates will eat that value over time.  But, Social Security will be kicking in hopefully about that time.  So now I'm reducing our liquid net worth to 2.4 million dollars.  We stay in the club here, but I'm not counting that big lump sum payment anymore.  I don't include houses, cars boats or other crap either.  So now that I'm nearly broke 😂, gonna have to bootstrap.  I think we'll still be fine as long as we recover by next summer.  Taking out that lump sum amount from NW, also increases my current percent down from old highs. 
Just some mental games to make myself think poor.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on September 07, 2022, 06:30:11 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 07, 2022, 06:25:11 PM

So now I'm reducing our liquid net worth to 2.4 million dollars.  ...
Just some mental games to make myself think poor.

Horror of horrors!   True poverty indeed!   Almost six American households out of every one hundred will be wealthier!   Definitely time to hang your head in shame.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on September 07, 2022, 09:18:40 PM

A $4,500 pension is SWEET. Given how much you have accumulated, I doubt you are even going to need to touch the stash for awhile and it will just keep growing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on September 08, 2022, 11:42:25 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 07, 2022, 06:25:11 PM

Decided to recategorize how we calculate net worth.  I've all but decided that I will take the annuity style pension vs the lump sum.  I've still got about 250 days to decide.  The annuity with 100/100 employee/survivor will be about $4500 a month.  There will be no COLA.  Yes interest rates will eat that value over time.  But, Social Security will be kicking in hopefully about that time.  So now I'm reducing our liquid net worth to 2.4 million dollars.  We stay in the club here, but I'm not counting that big lump sum payment anymore.  I don't include houses, cars boats or other crap either.  So now that I'm nearly broke , gonna have to bootstrap.  I think we'll still be fine as long as we recover by next summer.  Taking out that lump sum amount from NW, also increases my current percent down from old highs. 
Just some mental games to make myself think poor.

I won't get a pension...but my wife will.  However, it won't be anywhere near $4500 a month unless she sticks with the job until 'retirement age' ( i.e. - mid 60s or so )...which isn't going to happen.  However, we feel blessed to even have it at all.  The current thought is to earmark the pension income towards healthcare costs. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on September 08, 2022, 07:30:37 PM

Quote from: couponvan on September 07, 2022, 09:18:40 PM

A $4,500 pension is SWEET. Given how much you have accumulated, I doubt you are even going to need to touch the stash for awhile and it will just keep growing.

Agreed -- guesstimate is ~$650,000 in pre-tax present value.   I can understand why you might exclude it from your net worth calc @Bateaux , but I could also see a case for including it as it will make a huge difference in your future withdrawal rate.   Fortunately (er, UN-fortunately) I don't have this financial dilemma, given that I'm pension-less (definition -- a state or condition of being without a stable source of income in retirement, placing the individual's early retirement almost entirely subject to the whims of the stock market :-)  ).

 @Exflyboy and others from the UK or expats thereof, so sorry to hear of the passing of QE II today.  A huge loss for all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on September 08, 2022, 11:42:21 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 07, 2022, 06:25:11 PM

Decided to recategorize how we calculate net worth.  I've all but decided that I will take the annuity style pension vs the lump sum.  I've still got about 250 days to decide.  The annuity with 100/100 employee/survivor will be about $4500 a month.  There will be no COLA.  Yes interest rates will eat that value over time.  But, Social Security will be kicking in hopefully about that time.  So now I'm reducing our liquid net worth to 2.4 million dollars.  We stay in the club here, but I'm not counting that big lump sum payment anymore.  I don't include houses, cars boats or other crap either.  So now that I'm nearly broke , gonna have to bootstrap.  I think we'll still be fine as long as we recover by next summer.  Taking out that lump sum amount from NW, also increases my current percent down from old highs. 
Just some mental games to make myself think poor.

If you were to do the lump sum would you take the after tax cash and invest or roll into an IRA and take periodic distributions?

This shows why a household cash flow projection analysis is more meaningful than looking at NW to determine retirement readiness .

Congrats on your decision. I’m still haven’t decided what to do with mine pension, will more depend on what life throws at me over the next 10 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on September 09, 2022, 03:09:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 08, 2022, 11:42:21 PM

If you were to do the lump sum would you take the after tax cash and invest or roll into an IRA and take periodic distributions?

This shows why a household cash flow projection analysis is more meaningful than looking at NW to determine retirement readiness

I completely agree with this! I have come to the conclusion that the best way to do retirement planning is to project expenses as accurately as possible and work backwards from there to see if you have enough to retire.

This is definitely not easy but you may be able to use historical precedents from your family as a guide. My dad died of Alzheimer's at age 86 and my uncle (Dad's brother) also had some form of dementia and died at age 83. Both of them needed a lot of care for the last two years of their lives so I have taken this into account in my planning. (It helps that my older daughter is working on her PhD in genetics, :-) )

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 09, 2022, 06:59:58 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 09, 2022, 03:09:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 08, 2022, 11:42:21 PM

If you were to do the lump sum would you take the after tax cash and invest or roll into an IRA and take periodic distributions?

This shows why a household cash flow projection analysis is more meaningful than looking at NW to determine retirement readiness

I completely agree with this! I have come to the conclusion that the best way to do retirement planning is to project expenses as accurately as possible and work backwards from there to see if you have enough to retire.

This is definitely not easy but you may be able to use historical precedents from your family as a guide. My dad died of Alzheimer's at age 86 and my uncle (Dad's brother) also had some form of dementia and died at age 83. Both of them needed a lot of care for the last two years of their lives so I have taken this into account in my planning. (It helps that my older daughter is working on her PhD in genetics, :-) )

That's also when you begin to realize how important inflation projections, ACA subsidies, and taxes in general have a big effect on SWR and those are things you don't have much control over.  Keeping spending at  $40-80k is efficient (and converting up to the 0% cap gains limit), but I'll likely have to ability to spend more.  Unfortunately I'll also be paying more to the government in order to do so.  I wonder if something like starting a lifestyle business would help provide more tax deductions?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: scottish on September 09, 2022, 11:30:22 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 09, 2022, 03:09:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 08, 2022, 11:42:21 PM

If you were to do the lump sum would you take the after tax cash and invest or roll into an IRA and take periodic distributions?

This shows why a household cash flow projection analysis is more meaningful than looking at NW to determine retirement readiness

I completely agree with this! I have come to the conclusion that the best way to do retirement planning is to project expenses as accurately as possible and work backwards from there to see if you have enough to retire.

This is definitely not easy but you may be able to use historical precedents from your family as a guide. My dad died of Alzheimer's at age 86 and my uncle (Dad's brother) also had some form of dementia and died at age 83. Both of them needed a lot of care for the last two years of their lives so I have taken this into account in my planning. (It helps that my older daughter is working on her PhD in genetics, :-) )

Planning for end of life care is an important topic, at least to me.    So far my plan consists of having a large stash as we get older.  It's not very detailed, but there are many factors beyond my control:
- we may not need end of life care, or we may need extensive end of life care.    Dementia has occured in both our families, so there's a significant risk of this.
- the level of support from the government is unknown, but it doesn't look very good
- the availability and cost to hire private support (ie PSW or private LTC facility) is unknown.    MIL is in a nice private facility at around 10K/month so at least there's  a stake in the ground.

Do you have any pointers you can share?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on September 11, 2022, 03:41:08 AM

Quote from: scottish on September 09, 2022, 11:30:22 AM

Planning for end of life care is an important topic, at least to me.    So far my plan consists of having a large stash as we get older.  It's not very detailed, but there are many factors beyond my control:
- we may not need end of life care, or we may need extensive end of life care.    Dementia has occured in both our families, so there's a significant risk of this.
- the level of support from the government is unknown, but it doesn't look very good
- the availability and cost to hire private support (ie PSW or private LTC facility) is unknown.    MIL is in a nice private facility at around 10K/month so at least there's  a stake in the ground.

Do you have any pointers you can share?

I wish I had something concrete to offer. By lurking on Bogleheads, I have concluded that none of the LTC policies currently available here in the US are worthwhile so we have no option but to self insure. Accordingly, in my planning I have included a yearly expense of about $150k in my 80s for care. Note that this is in 2022 Dollars - Pralana takes care of adjusting this by predicted inflation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on September 11, 2022, 05:13:47 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 11, 2022, 03:41:08 AM

Quote from: scottish on September 09, 2022, 11:30:22 AM

Planning for end of life care is an important topic, at least to me.    So far my plan consists of having a large stash as we get older.  It's not very detailed, but there are many factors beyond my control:
- we may not need end of life care, or we may need extensive end of life care.    Dementia has occured in both our families, so there's a significant risk of this.
- the level of support from the government is unknown, but it doesn't look very good
- the availability and cost to hire private support (ie PSW or private LTC facility) is unknown.    MIL is in a nice private facility at around 10K/month so at least there's  a stake in the ground.

Do you have any pointers you can share?

I wish I had something concrete to offer. By lurking on Bogleheads, I have concluded that none of the LTC policies currently available here in the US are worthwhile so we have no option but to self insure. Accordingly, in my planning I have included a yearly expense of about $150k in my 80s for care. Note that this is in 2022 Dollars - Pralana takes care of adjusting this by predicted inflation.

In part this is why I switched to a HDHP with an HSA a few years ago.  I don’t use the funds in the HSA and they are mentally designated as my LTC fund.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 12, 2022, 10:08:36 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 08, 2022, 11:42:21 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 07, 2022, 06:25:11 PM

Decided to recategorize how we calculate net worth.  I've all but decided that I will take the annuity style pension vs the lump sum.  I've still got about 250 days to decide.  The annuity with 100/100 employee/survivor will be about $4500 a month.  There will be no COLA.  Yes interest rates will eat that value over time.  But, Social Security will be kicking in hopefully about that time.  So now I'm reducing our liquid net worth to 2.4 million dollars.  We stay in the club here, but I'm not counting that big lump sum payment anymore.  I don't include houses, cars boats or other crap either.  So now that I'm nearly broke , gonna have to bootstrap.  I think we'll still be fine as long as we recover by next summer.  Taking out that lump sum amount from NW, also increases my current percent down from old highs. 
Just some mental games to make myself think poor.

If you were to do the lump sum would you take the after tax cash and invest or roll into an IRA and take periodic distributions?

This shows why a household cash flow projection analysis is more meaningful than looking at NW to determine retirement readiness .

Congrats on your decision. I’m still haven’t decided what to do with mine pension, will more depend on what life throws at me over the next 10 years.


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Most likely we'd just roll it into an IRA and let it soak in a broad index fund for 5 to 10 years.  Which would potentially double it.  I'll see what interest rates are next summer.  I'll lose 100 to 150 thousand in payment if interest rates go higher.  The potential is about 700k total.  Could be as low as 550K.  The annuity would pay about 1.5 million or so over 30 years.   Using the annuity allows the 401K and IRAs to continue to grow however.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on September 18, 2022, 09:33:14 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 11, 2022, 05:13:47 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 11, 2022, 03:41:08 AM

Quote from: scottish on September 09, 2022, 11:30:22 AM

Planning for end of life care is an important topic, at least to me.    So far my plan consists of having a large stash as we get older.  It's not very detailed, but there are many factors beyond my control:
- we may not need end of life care, or we may need extensive end of life care.    Dementia has occured in both our families, so there's a significant risk of this.
- the level of support from the government is unknown, but it doesn't look very good
- the availability and cost to hire private support (ie PSW or private LTC facility) is unknown.    MIL is in a nice private facility at around 10K/month so at least there's  a stake in the ground.

Do you have any pointers you can share?

I wish I had something concrete to offer. By lurking on Bogleheads, I have concluded that none of the LTC policies currently available here in the US are worthwhile so we have no option but to self insure. Accordingly, in my planning I have included a yearly expense of about $150k in my 80s for care. Note that this is in 2022 Dollars - Pralana takes care of adjusting this by predicted inflation.

In part this is why I switched to a HDHP with an HSA a few years ago.  I don’t use the funds in the HSA and they are mentally designated as my LTC fund.

Among various other financial mistakes I have made, the only one that actually still irks me is not knowing about HSAs until about a decade ago. I missed out on four years of potential eligibility. It would take quite the situation for me to withdraw a single penny from it for the next couple decades. I expect to only have another four years of work, so it will never be too big.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on September 18, 2022, 07:32:39 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on September 18, 2022, 09:33:14 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 11, 2022, 05:13:47 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 11, 2022, 03:41:08 AM

Quote from: scottish on September 09, 2022, 11:30:22 AM

Planning for end of life care is an important topic, at least to me.    So far my plan consists of having a large stash as we get older.  It's not very detailed, but there are many factors beyond my control:
- we may not need end of life care, or we may need extensive end of life care.    Dementia has occured in both our families, so there's a significant risk of this.
- the level of support from the government is unknown, but it doesn't look very good
- the availability and cost to hire private support (ie PSW or private LTC facility) is unknown.    MIL is in a nice private facility at around 10K/month so at least there's  a stake in the ground.

Do you have any pointers you can share?

I wish I had something concrete to offer. By lurking on Bogleheads, I have concluded that none of the LTC policies currently available here in the US are worthwhile so we have no option but to self insure. Accordingly, in my planning I have included a yearly expense of about $150k in my 80s for care. Note that this is in 2022 Dollars - Pralana takes care of adjusting this by predicted inflation.

In part this is why I switched to a HDHP with an HSA a few years ago.  I don’t use the funds in the HSA and they are mentally designated as my LTC fund.

Among various other financial mistakes I have made, the only one that actually still irks me is not knowing about HSAs until about a decade ago. I missed out on four years of potential eligibility. It would take quite the situation for me to withdraw a single penny from it for the next couple decades. I expect to only have another four years of work, so it will never be too big.

Are you 61, because I plan on having an HDHP and contributing to an HSA until I’m 65.  18 years after I FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on September 20, 2022, 07:21:31 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 18, 2022, 07:32:39 PM

Are you 61, because I plan on having an HDHP and contributing to an HSA until I’m 65.  18 years after I FIRE.

Thanks! One more detail to look into. I had read people continuing to fund after retirement but it never clicked about what they were actually doing!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on September 20, 2022, 07:32:43 PM

“Eagerly” awaiting the interest rate hike so I can tax loss harvest on my bonds again.  I think I’ve managed to “lose” 17k so far this year flipping between bond funds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on September 23, 2022, 12:59:24 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 20, 2022, 07:32:43 PM

“Eagerly” awaiting the interest rate hike so I can tax loss harvest on my bonds again.  I think I’ve managed to “lose” 17k so far this year flipping between bond funds.

All my bonds are in tax sheltered accounts... so no harvesting there for me.

On the plus side my equities have lots of tax losses to harvest... haha

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on September 23, 2022, 06:15:10 PM

Quote from: dividendman on September 23, 2022, 12:59:24 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 20, 2022, 07:32:43 PM

“Eagerly” awaiting the interest rate hike so I can tax loss harvest on my bonds again.  I think I’ve managed to “lose” 17k so far this year flipping between bond funds.

All my bonds are in tax sheltered accounts... so no harvesting there for me.

On the plus side my equities have lots of tax losses to harvest... haha

Well said...if ever there we a time where you wanted to reallocate your stock portfolio, now is your time!   Its been painful and the pain does not seem to be over and the Fed seems to have their mind set that they have more work to do in bringing the economy down. 

Of course you should disregard everything I say because I no longer qualify to be on this thread!  :-(

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on September 24, 2022, 05:15:21 AM

Might have to change the title to "Race from $4M to $2M... and below!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 24, 2022, 06:35:44 AM

Quote from: arcturus on September 23, 2022, 06:15:10 PM

Of course you should disregard everything I say because I no longer qualify to be on this thread!  :-(

Hmmm, can you sell some stuff on eBay? Start a side hustle? ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on September 24, 2022, 08:03:32 AM

Quote from: dividendman on September 23, 2022, 12:59:24 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 20, 2022, 07:32:43 PM

“Eagerly” awaiting the interest rate hike so I can tax loss harvest on my bonds again.  I think I’ve managed to “lose” 17k so far this year flipping between bond funds.

All my bonds are in tax sheltered accounts... so no harvesting there for me.

On the plus side my equities have lots of tax losses to harvest... haha

With the exception of dividends from this year and the like, my equity funds are still way to the plus side.  As my brokerage bond funds are all munis, I just have the same AA over all my accounts.  The tax implications of of them are really minimal in proportion to my W2 income.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on September 24, 2022, 04:10:46 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on September 24, 2022, 05:15:21 AM

Might have to change the title to "Race from $4M to $2M... and below!

Little truth to every joke!


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on September 24, 2022, 05:08:57 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 24, 2022, 06:35:44 AM

Quote from: arcturus on September 23, 2022, 06:15:10 PM

Of course you should disregard everything I say because I no longer qualify to be on this thread!  :-(

Hmmm, can you sell some stuff on eBay? Start a side hustle? ;-)

Haha -- not quite there yet, but may need to take you up on that advice before too long!   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 24, 2022, 11:24:14 PM

Quote from: arcturus on September 24, 2022, 05:08:57 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 24, 2022, 06:35:44 AM

Quote from: arcturus on September 23, 2022, 06:15:10 PM

Of course you should disregard everything I say because I no longer qualify to be on this thread!  :-(

Hmmm, can you sell some stuff on eBay? Start a side hustle? ;-)

Haha -- not quite there yet, but may need to take you up on that advice before too long!

As long as you don't sell stocks, you'll be fine.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on September 25, 2022, 08:13:13 AM

I have to say that when stocks are down like this, I'm very happy that we have most of our retirement income covered by non-stock and bond income.

And with the crazy rises in real estate prices and corresponding rents, we've made a fair bit on appreciation, too.   We got into the rental property market at a great time for low prices.   Sheer, dumb luck on our part that our timing was so good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on September 25, 2022, 08:43:12 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on September 25, 2022, 08:13:13 AM

I have to say that when stocks are down like this, I'm very happy that we have most of our retirement income covered by non-stock and bond income.

And with the crazy rises in real estate prices and corresponding rents, we've made a fair bit on appreciation, too.   We got into the rental property market at a great time for low prices.   Sheer, dumb luck on our part that our timing was so good.

I admit.  It is very comforting to know I will have a pension that covers all of my needs, my investments will be 100% discretionary.  In a way sheer dumb luck for me as well because I ended up in a career, I never expected of myself.  (Federal Law Enforcement)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 25, 2022, 08:57:24 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 25, 2022, 08:43:12 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on September 25, 2022, 08:13:13 AM

I have to say that when stocks are down like this, I'm very happy that we have most of our retirement income covered by non-stock and bond income.

And with the crazy rises in real estate prices and corresponding rents, we've made a fair bit on appreciation, too.   We got into the rental property market at a great time for low prices.   Sheer, dumb luck on our part that our timing was so good.

I admit.  It is very comforting to know I will have a pension that covers all of my needs, my investments will be 100% discretionary.  In a way sheer dumb luck for me as well because I ended up in a career, I never expected of myself.  (Federal Law Enforcement)

Same here. Between DBP with COLA* and rental income, we're set. I'm not sure what we're going to do when RMDs kick in. I think our favorite charities are going to be very happy. It's a nice and certainly unexpected** MPP to grapple with.

*DH's COLA is...interesting. The actual amount is based on a fairly standard formula, but the raise is capped at 4%/year. Any excess % is rolled forward,. We will have these COLA increases "on account", meaning we can count on a 4% hike every year for quite some time. Certainly until RMDs kick in. And rents keep climbing.

**Our younger selves would never have believed how well this stuff was going to work.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 25, 2022, 09:20:32 AM

One more thing, I attended an estate planning seminar, put on by someone I know. It was offered by our library via Zoom. I asked what defined a small estate vs. large. Answer: Generally anything below $10M is considered "small" in the realm of Estate Planning. Thank goodness it was via Zoom and my lighting was deliberately dark so my face was in shadow. LMAO.

Apparently, we're mostly "Small" potatoes! How lucky are we that mustachian skills allow us to live "Large"?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on September 25, 2022, 11:18:54 AM

Well Dicey we do live in a very affluent area.  Yeah my Pension also has a COLA although it is somewhat Diet.  Under 3% inflation full COLA over 3% COLA -1%.  They past few years though, the pension COLA has been higher than salary increases.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 25, 2022, 12:55:32 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 25, 2022, 11:18:54 AM

Well Dicey we do live in a very affluent area.  Yeah my Pension also has a COLA although it is somewhat Diet.  Under 3% inflation full COLA over 3% COLA -1%.  They past few years though, the pension COLA has been higher than salary increases.

Yup. I was specifically thinking of this group. Being here tickles the shit out of me and this dude's pin popped my balloon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 29, 2022, 10:37:58 AM

Florida people y'all good?

Two days ago the center of the cone was on our house in Citrus County.  Our area has not been hit in one hundred years.  Neighbors said our house saw almost nothing.  Southwest Florida not so lucky. 
We've been through this in Louisiana.  I've been in our home with water entering the second floor in 2016 and felt the wrath of Cat 4 Hurricane Ida last year.  You can recover. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on September 30, 2022, 05:09:41 PM

Glad to hear you dodged it, Bateaux.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on September 30, 2022, 05:53:41 PM

Did our monthly net worth calculation tonight.

Stock/bond portfolio is down about $315,000 YTD.

But real estate is up significantly.  Home and 4 rental properties are up $140,000.   And we learned a more accurate property valuation for our farmland this year, so it's value is now $579,000 higher than we valued it at year end.   (In the past, having no idea what it was worth, we just valued it like it was a stock/bond portfolio with the average profit being the 4% yield.)  Now we have some comparative farmland sales in the area to use.

So, our net worth is about $390,000 higher than it was at the end of last year.

But I'll still be glad when the stock market starts moving upwards again!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on September 30, 2022, 09:52:55 PM

Our NW was 3.2 BOY, now it is 2.7 million. But we had bigger problems today. As Ian passed through Charlotte our neighbor’s house got pummeled by a massive falling tree. Looks like a tornado hit it. We had minor damage from it. For a sec I thought it was our house getting crushed. Everyone is fine but an emotional night. Our neighbor is staying in our guest room while we help her figure out her next steps. Hopefully her cats and my dogs get along!


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on September 30, 2022, 09:57:17 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 30, 2022, 09:52:55 PM

Our NW was 3.2 BOY, now it is 2.7 million. But we had bigger problems today. As Ian passed through Charlotte our neighbor’s house got pummeled by a massive falling tree. Looks like a tornado hit it. We had minor damage from it. For a sec I thought it was our house getting crushed. Everyone is fine but an emotional night. Our neighbor is staying in our guest room while we help her figure out her next steps. Hopefully her cats and my dogs get along!

Yeah, you!   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 01, 2022, 09:08:02 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 30, 2022, 09:52:55 PM

Our NW was 3.2 BOY, now it is 2.7 million. But we had bigger problems today. As Ian passed through Charlotte our neighbor’s house got pummeled by a massive falling tree. Looks like a tornado hit it. We had minor damage from it. For a sec I thought it was our house getting crushed. Everyone is fine but an emotional night. Our neighbor is staying in our guest room while we help her figure out her next steps. Hopefully her cats and my dogs get along!


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Glad you're okay and kudos for helping your neighbor.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 02, 2022, 09:23:56 AM

Quote from: Dicey on October 01, 2022, 09:08:02 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 30, 2022, 09:52:55 PM

Our NW was 3.2 BOY, now it is 2.7 million. But we had bigger problems today. As Ian passed through Charlotte our neighbor’s house got pummeled by a massive falling tree. Looks like a tornado hit it. We had minor damage from it. For a sec I thought it was our house getting crushed. Everyone is fine but an emotional night. Our neighbor is staying in our guest room while we help her figure out her next steps. Hopefully her cats and my dogs get along!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Glad you're okay and kudos for helping your neighbor.

Don’t worry, the cats will teach your dogs who is the top pet soon enough.  Really just make sure there is something high they can escape too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on October 02, 2022, 05:53:37 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on October 02, 2022, 09:23:56 AM

Quote from: Dicey on October 01, 2022, 09:08:02 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 30, 2022, 09:52:55 PM

Our NW was 3.2 BOY, now it is 2.7 million. But we had bigger problems today. As Ian passed through Charlotte our neighbor’s house got pummeled by a massive falling tree. Looks like a tornado hit it. We had minor damage from it. For a sec I thought it was our house getting crushed. Everyone is fine but an emotional night. Our neighbor is staying in our guest room while we help her figure out her next steps. Hopefully her cats and my dogs get along!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Glad you're okay and kudos for helping your neighbor.

Don’t worry, the cats will teach your dogs who is the top pet soon enough.  Really just make sure there is something high they can escape too.

Yeah, it's like dogs are loyal and will stay and die with you while cats are like I love you but I am already on high ground wondering why you idiots are still in the house!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 02, 2022, 08:54:58 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 30, 2022, 09:52:55 PM

Our NW was 3.2 BOY, now it is 2.7 million. But we had bigger problems today. As Ian passed through Charlotte our neighbor’s house got pummeled by a massive falling tree. Looks like a tornado hit it. We had minor damage from it. For a sec I thought it was our house getting crushed. Everyone is fine but an emotional night. Our neighbor is staying in our guest room while we help her figure out her next steps. Hopefully her cats and my dogs get along!


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Glad things are survivable. 

Glad you could help the neighbor.

We helped out our old disabled veteran neighbor and others last year after Ida.  Two weeks with no power.   Kept his generator going.  Kept him fed.  Made sure he took his meds.
You're not longer a victim when helping others.  You're a fighter.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on October 03, 2022, 02:53:04 PM

Turns out the tree was well over 30 feet tall, an old white oak about 80 years old. Her sister started a Go Fund Me. If you are incline to help great, but you can see some pics too.

https://gofund.me/1d69c200

I am glad we have been able to help her. She did board her cats tho to alleviate everyone’s stress haha!


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 05, 2022, 06:47:51 AM

We have been buying an S&P index fund automatically since the early 1990s. I was recently updating the cost basis spreadsheet I keep for my S&P index fund in my taxable brokerage account. I noticed that between 2009 and 2011, we were buying shares at prices between 30 and 50 - which are now at 132.

That was soon after the 2008 crash: our jobs felt shaky, we had two young kids, and a mortgage. As a result, we simply did not feel comfortable investing more than about $1000 per month. I still have some slight regret that we didn't put away more in the index fund. I did eventually increase the investment amount in 2011.

Now in 2022, I am retired, wife is still making a good income and we have at least 5 years of expenses set aside in cash or equivalents. So I just increased our automated monthly investment to $6k per month. I plan to keep this up until my wife eventually decides to retire.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 05, 2022, 03:19:13 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 02, 2022, 08:54:58 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on September 30, 2022, 09:52:55 PM

Our NW was 3.2 BOY, now it is 2.7 million. But we had bigger problems today. As Ian passed through Charlotte our neighbor’s house got pummeled by a massive falling tree. Looks like a tornado hit it. We had minor damage from it. For a sec I thought it was our house getting crushed. Everyone is fine but an emotional night. Our neighbor is staying in our guest room while we help her figure out her next steps. Hopefully her cats and my dogs get along!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Glad things are survivable. 

Glad you could help the neighbor.

We helped out our old disabled veteran neighbor and others last year after Ida.  Two weeks with no power.   Kept his generator going.  Kept him fed.  Made sure he took his meds.
You're not longer a victim when helping others.  You're a fighter.

I'm hoping your story will remain in my mind when it's my turn to help.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on October 15, 2022, 09:37:58 AM

Man, 2022 needs to end.  Lots of health and financial challenges & extraordinary expenses within the family on top of the 4th or 5th worst bear market on record!   Quick check today to see I'm now below $1.8 invested, and maybe ~$2.3 nw.   In my never-ending spreadsheet journey, I'm now in the mode of needing to project a stock market rebound to keep my retirement plan from bleeding red.  Based on all of the turmoil in 2022, I figure I need a 10-15% rebound just to get back above $2M!

The positive is we have a beautiful day here in the midwest, and if 2022 has taught me anything, it is not to take basic things for granted.  Going to get out today and enjoy the fresh air!   

Hope everyone on this thread is weathering the storm (in literally every sense of the word) ok.  Maybe we should turn this into a therapy group?  Hope you all have a good one.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 16, 2022, 04:16:12 AM

Quote from: arcturus on October 15, 2022, 09:37:58 AM

The positive is we have a beautiful day here in the midwest, and if 2022 has taught me anything, it is not to take basic things for granted.  Going to get out today and enjoy the fresh air!   

Hope everyone on this thread is weathering the storm (in literally every sense of the word) ok.  Maybe we should turn this into a therapy group?  Hope you all have a good one.....

If it makes you feel any better, we are down a full million from the very peak in January 2022 :-)  But to be honest, I don't remember this except when I update our net worth tracker once a month - I have been thoroughly enjoying retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on October 16, 2022, 09:45:14 AM

Yes happy Sunday everyone! Beautiful day in Charlotte, and the parents are driving through today, as they bound around the country on their retirement adventures. Step mom is early sixties and did a triathlon yesterday. We are still doing house renos despite NW being down 500k. Life keeps moving on, so just enjoying each day as it comes.

And today is a LOTR movie day, playing in the background as we go about our day .


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 16, 2022, 09:46:06 AM

We’ve been hovering around three and a half. I had a lot of dry powder, so have been metering that back into the market on the drops. Looks like we’ll still be up for the year.  Flat in stocks, up in real estate. Plus we’re adding in still. Reminds me of the Buffett quote:

“A simple rule dictates my buying: Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful.”

That’s been working for me…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 16, 2022, 09:04:47 PM

Down a little over 400K from the all time high. 
Still working and still saving.  I'm going backpacking this coming week in Alabama.  Temperatures may dip into the 20s.  I have a new backpacking quilt I want to temperature test.  I'll have 7 days of hiking before getting back to work.  Great thing is I'll only work 5 shifts before another vacation.  We're cruising from New York back to New Orleans.  Once back I'll work a few weeks and we'll spend New Year's at the Florida house.  After New Year's it will be a quick countdown to my Appalachian Trail Hike in the Spring.  I'll be doing so with PTO.  End of June I'm retirement eligible.  I'll soon be within 200 days of ending work!! 
Life is good for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on October 18, 2022, 12:26:19 PM

I'm probably down about $300k.  Not sure.  I don't update my spread sheet when things are dropping.  I do have a couple hundred grand in cash and over $400k in savings bonds as we want to be able to retire without selling any stock or bond funds.  Early next year and I'm done.  Gave the boss the long lead time so he can get a req, find someone and I can work with them when they start.  We'll see.  I've been in several jobs where I gave the long time notice and the boss never seemed to get a replacement until 2 days before I was gone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on October 18, 2022, 05:25:20 PM

Yeah, I need to learn that lesson @Car Jack , just don't update when the market is way down.  And its good to see that the down market isn't impacting your plans/date (you as well @Bateaux )!   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on October 19, 2022, 03:53:02 AM

I looked and it’s ugly. Compounded by the fact that my kids seem to be in really expensive phases of life.
I was born into a family of frugal investors. I can remember my mother walking in from the mailbox and depositing sealed envelopes into the drawer of her desk during the dot com bust. “Eh paper losses, we just won’t open those” she said. I wish I could do the same!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on October 19, 2022, 07:16:13 AM

I update our net worth every month, up or down.   Recording the changes has largely inoculated me from fear about this recession.

Our stocks/bonds are about $325,000 lower YTD.    Then again, our home/rental real estate is up about $140,000.  I just got a more accurate assessment of our farmland value in January and it was substantially higher than I had guessed for many years before.  As in $580,000 higher!   

So, we're dipping into rental income more this year and using it for monthly living expenses instead of for investments.   One of our two farms (the larger one) won't produce a profit this year or next as we're levelling the land on it to increase its yield.   So we're making small, extra withdrawals of stock a few times this year.   First year we've needed to do that for regular living expenses in the 4 1/2 years we've been retired.   We've just been making the RMDs on the IRA I inherited from my mom and my wife's 401K before then.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on October 22, 2022, 09:15:33 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on October 19, 2022, 03:53:02 AM

I looked and it’s ugly. Compounded by the fact that my kids seem to be in really expensive phases of life.
I was born into a family of frugal investors. I can remember my mother walking in from the mailbox and depositing sealed envelopes into the drawer of her desk during the dot com bust. “Eh paper losses, we just won’t open those” she said. I wish I could do the same!

I'm right there with you @BeanCounter .  2022 has been really expensive for the kids.  Like embarrassingly bad.    I share your inability to *not* look at the numbers! :-)

On the positive, it looks like another beautiful weekend here in Ohio!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 24, 2022, 06:55:12 PM

I only backpacked 4 days and 42 miles on my recent trip.  I developed blisters on both feet.  Never had that happen before.  I think I need to train more and toughen up my feet.  Working indoors and having a couch potato summer didn't help.  But the days I was out there were definitely beneficial.  I dropped a few pounds and toned a few muscles.  I'll hopefully have a few more opportunities as the weather here in the South cools a bit more.  I met some great people at the hostel during the hike.  Hopefully we'll meet up again soon.    Financially wise everything is cool.  I've got over 8 months of paychecks still to come even if I quit in May.  Maybe the stock market will be in recovery by next Summer.  If not, who gives two shits.  I'll still have a pension.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on October 25, 2022, 08:31:20 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 24, 2022, 06:55:12 PM

I only backpacked 4 days and 42 miles on my recent trip.  I developed blisters on both feet.  Never had that happen before.  I think I need to train more and toughen up my feet.  Working indoors and having a couch potato summer didn't help.  But the days I was out there were definitely beneficial.  I dropped a few pounds and toned a few muscles.  I'll hopefully have a few more opportunities as the weather here in the South cools a bit more.  I met some great people at the hostel during the hike.  Hopefully we'll meet up again soon.    Financially wise everything is cool.  I've got over 8 months of paychecks still to come even if I quit in May.  Maybe the stock market will be in recovery by next Summer.  If not, who gives two shits.  I'll still have a pension.

Right attitude not to stress and a lot of physical activity.  If you eat right too, you'll make it to 100.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on October 26, 2022, 05:12:56 AM

Quote from: pecunia on October 25, 2022, 08:31:20 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on October 24, 2022, 06:55:12 PM

I only backpacked 4 days and 42 miles on my recent trip.  I developed blisters on both feet.  Never had that happen before.  I think I need to train more and toughen up my feet.  Working indoors and having a couch potato summer didn't help.  But the days I was out there were definitely beneficial.  I dropped a few pounds and toned a few muscles.  I'll hopefully have a few more opportunities as the weather here in the South cools a bit more.  I met some great people at the hostel during the hike.  Hopefully we'll meet up again soon.    Financially wise everything is cool.  I've got over 8 months of paychecks still to come even if I quit in May.  Maybe the stock market will be in recovery by next Summer.  If not, who gives two shits.  I'll still have a pension.

Right attitude not to stress and a lot of physical activity.  If you eat right too, you'll make it to 100.

No need to stress about anything very soon.  I just received a new air-conditioning/heater unit to replace my old ducted system.  I'll be installing it the rest of the week.  Should make for a lower electric bill and I'll be able to control each rooms custom temperature.  I'd considered taking an overnight bicycle trip instead.  But time is better spent getting the HVAC done.  Dreading crawling in the attic though. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 29, 2022, 08:00:10 AM

I’ve got to brag on my sub 26 year old new co worker (still on her parents health care because I mentioned looking at the HDHP plans during open season).  She is already maxing out TSP while now living in the Bay Area on a salary with a base of less than 80k.  I also had the other new person up their TSP from 5 to 10% to start getting closer to the max.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on October 30, 2022, 12:15:47 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on October 29, 2022, 08:00:10 AM

I’ve got to brag on my sub 26 year old new co worker (still on her parents health care because I mentioned looking at the HDHP plans during open season).  She is already maxing out TSP while now living in the Bay Area on a salary with a base of less than 80k.  I also had the other new person up their TSP from 5 to 10% to start getting closer to the max.

Please show them at their age if Roth is a question that they’re better off going that way vs full pre-tax contributions given their age and years o retirement with tax-free potential and added flexibility for access to funds in early retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ingrownstudentloans on November 08, 2022, 07:09:06 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on April 02, 2022, 05:11:46 PM

Joining this race after a short stint in the 1-2 race.  Focusing on continuing to double my money in as short a period of time as possible.

(tracking retirement accounts, taxable accounts and conservative equity in my rental properties, investment land and side businesses)

12/2014    $32,000
12/2016    $64,000 (24 months)
1/2018      $128,000 (25 months)
5/2019      $256,000 (16 months)
11/2020  $512,000 (19 months)
12/2021  $1,024,000 (13 months)
4/2022    $2,048,000 (4 months)
[10/2023 $4,096,000 (19 months] **TARGET**
--
4/1/2022     $2,336,219
5/1/2022     $2,398,670
6/1/2022     $2,556,025 - I realize others in this "race" don't report monthly, or at all, but it's become my monthly ritual when I update the spreadsheets.  Thanks for bearing with me :)

11/1/2022    $2,919,364

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 08, 2022, 07:21:18 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on November 08, 2022, 07:09:06 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on April 02, 2022, 05:11:46 PM

Joining this race after a short stint in the 1-2 race.  Focusing on continuing to double my money in as short a period of time as possible.

(tracking retirement accounts, taxable accounts and conservative equity in my rental properties, investment land and side businesses)

12/2014    $32,000
12/2016    $64,000 (24 months)
1/2018      $128,000 (25 months)
5/2019      $256,000 (16 months)
11/2020  $512,000 (19 months)
12/2021  $1,024,000 (13 months)
4/2022    $2,048,000 (4 months)
[10/2023 $4,096,000 (19 months] **TARGET**
--
4/1/2022     $2,336,219
5/1/2022     $2,398,670
6/1/2022     $2,556,025 - I realize others in this "race" don't report monthly, or at all, but it's become my monthly ritual when I update the spreadsheets.  Thanks for bearing with me :)

11/1/2022    $2,919,364

In this market? Details, please!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 08, 2022, 08:04:31 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on November 08, 2022, 07:09:06 AM

11/1/2022    $2,919,364

Big numbers aren't quite as exciting around these parts, although I congratulate you on having an income over a million a year.  What are your hopes and dreams?  Just having more money, getting to 'and beyond' (which I'm sure you will do within a year or two just by saving)?  Do you plan to ER??

Inquiring minds want to know, since there really isn't any graduating from this thread...  Time to put a little meat on those bones.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on November 08, 2022, 08:51:48 AM

I finally updated my figures and they don't look too bad.  Pretty flat in sterling terms (my home currency) due to the shitshow currently unfolding at home.  Down in dollars ... but given it's down from "too much money" to still "too much money" and that I'm now retiring at a lower market valuation it's reassuring in a way.

It's amazing how much worse my Developing World and Pacific funds have done compared to the US-dominated global trackers.  The US economy really is something!  I wonder how long it can last?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on November 08, 2022, 09:35:31 AM

We continue to hover around $3.5. Up a few hundred this year. This is partly due to contributions and partly due to gains as I’ve been buying back in with cash that I had (somewhat stupidly) stashed. It seems crazy. I really need to thing about that hopes and dreams question and consider moving on from work into things if rather be doing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ingrownstudentloans on November 08, 2022, 09:40:29 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 08, 2022, 08:04:31 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on November 08, 2022, 07:09:06 AM

11/1/2022    $2,919,364

Big numbers aren't quite as exciting around these parts, although I congratulate you on having an income over a million a year.  What are your hopes and dreams?  Just having more money, getting to 'and beyond' (which I'm sure you will do within a year or two just by saving)?  Do you plan to ER??

Inquiring minds want to know, since there really isn't any graduating from this thread...  Time to put a little meat on those bones.

Well I am still excited.  Your lack of excitement doesn't affect mine at all.  Part of my stoic training :)

Good questions.  I am happy with my job and plan on continuing for at least another 4-5 years.  My goal in that time is to build up my cash generating assets (rentals and cash flowing businesses).  I have chance to create real generational wealth (the "beyond" you reference) over the next couple of years and retire at 40ish with a net worth of $10MM in time to coach my kids soccer teams and be an adult leader for the scouting pack.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 08, 2022, 09:44:54 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 08, 2022, 08:04:31 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on November 08, 2022, 07:09:06 AM

11/1/2022    $2,919,364

Big numbers aren't quite as exciting around these parts, although I congratulate you on having an income over a million a year.  What are your hopes and dreams?  Just having more money, getting to 'and beyond' (which I'm sure you will do within a year or two just by saving)?  Do you plan to ER??

Inquiring minds want to know, since there really isn't any graduating from this thread...  Time to put a little meat on those bones.

Wait, are you saying someone called ingrownstudentloans is pulling down $1M a year?

Even if that's true, an increase of $363,339 in five months in the current market is huge, even for this crowd.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on November 08, 2022, 11:09:49 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on October 29, 2022, 08:00:10 AM

I’ve got to brag on my sub 26 year old new co worker (still on her parents health care because I mentioned looking at the HDHP plans during open season).  She is already maxing out TSP while now living in the Bay Area on a salary with a base of less than 80k.  I also had the other new person up their TSP from 5 to 10% to start getting closer to the max.

SO I would guess that means they are making $80k gross and living off of $40k after taxes for a single and maxing out contribution (even assuming no other savings) in the Bay area.  Which means they are saving over half a years spending in a year.  Thats amzing at 26 and similar to the numbers I'm gonna be encouraging my graduating kid to be doing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 08, 2022, 12:49:11 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on November 08, 2022, 11:09:49 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on October 29, 2022, 08:00:10 AM

I’ve got to brag on my sub 26 year old new co worker (still on her parents health care because I mentioned looking at the HDHP plans during open season).  She is already maxing out TSP while now living in the Bay Area on a salary with a base of less than 80k.  I also had the other new person up their TSP from 5 to 10% to start getting closer to the max.

SO I would guess that means they are making $80k gross and living off of $40k after taxes for a single and maxing out contribution (even assuming no other savings) in the Bay area.  Which means they are saving over half a years spending in a year.  Thats amzing at 26 and similar to the numbers I'm gonna be encouraging my graduating kid to be doing.

Yup about right.  Plus their salary goes up rather well for the first five years (government scheduled and so known) and she gets her first raise soon.  With putting that much in that early it allows one to make possibly some big mistakes and still win the game.

In a work sponsored retirement seminar today.  For the first time I heard the presenter sub track out 401k contributions before using the 80% rule.  I’ve always been confused why it wasn’t accounted for.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ingrownstudentloans on November 08, 2022, 01:17:53 PM

Quote from: Dicey on November 08, 2022, 09:44:54 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 08, 2022, 08:04:31 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on November 08, 2022, 07:09:06 AM

11/1/2022    $2,919,364

Big numbers aren't quite as exciting around these parts, although I congratulate you on having an income over a million a year.  What are your hopes and dreams?  Just having more money, getting to 'and beyond' (which I'm sure you will do within a year or two just by saving)?  Do you plan to ER??

Inquiring minds want to know, since there really isn't any graduating from this thread...  Time to put a little meat on those bones.

Wait, are you saying someone called ingrownstudentloans is pulling down $1M a year?

Even if that's true, an increase of $363,339 in five months in the current market is huge, even for this crowd.

Don't want to change the name because it reminds me of where I started on this journey and hopefully shows others that it can be done.  Lots of luck and a little hard work.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 09, 2022, 07:03:04 PM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on November 08, 2022, 09:40:29 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 08, 2022, 08:04:31 AM

Quote from: ingrownstudentloans on November 08, 2022, 07:09:06 AM

11/1/2022    $2,919,364

Big numbers aren't quite as exciting around these parts, although I congratulate you on having an income over a million a year.  What are your hopes and dreams?  Just having more money, getting to 'and beyond' (which I'm sure you will do within a year or two just by saving)?  Do you plan to ER??

Inquiring minds want to know, since there really isn't any graduating from this thread...  Time to put a little meat on those bones.

Well I am still excited.  Your lack of excitement doesn't affect mine at all.  Part of my stoic training :)

Good questions.  I am happy with my job and plan on continuing for at least another 4-5 years.  My goal in that time is to build up my cash generating assets (rentals and cash flowing businesses).  I have chance to create real generational wealth (the "beyond" you reference) over the next couple of years and retire at 40ish with a net worth of $10MM in time to coach my kids soccer teams and be an adult leader for the scouting pack.

Thanks for not being too upset by my grumpiness!  We've had a few 'stache growing superstars (tech salaries, TSLA or crypto early investors, CA real estate, etc.)  shoot through this thread posting eye-popping numbers without any real story or anything interesting to say.  They then realize that they have 'graduated' but not really thought about what comes next.  It's easy to feel unfulfilled and lost at that point.

Glad to hear you are still excited, FI is exciting!  In the 'normal world', many would get here only to increase their lifestyle and continue to live just beyond their means...

Thanks for sharing that the goal is to ER at 40ish with $10MM in order to give back to the next generation and community...  as 'Office Space' once said, you don't need $10MM to do that...  or something along those lines.  I have a feeling these ideas will evolve along the way. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on November 20, 2022, 11:30:54 PM

It's been a roller coaster year financially for us all, and I once again feel amazingly fortunate to have mostly thrived despite market headwinds.

I'm probably down around $200k overall (marking financial assets to market and also taking withdrawals and dividends into account), but since I managed to sell some FL property that I've been carrying on the books at about $150k below market value, my total NW as I calculate it is about level with YE 2021 (I also marked a remaining real property up by $90k to reflect a closer estimate of market value).  My SO's financial assets saw much bigger market losses (maybe about $400k) but she earns and saves a ton and also this year she vested into a defined benefit pension that probably has a present value of about $300k-$500k, so she's actually up a fair bit for the year once we factor the new pension benefit in. Overall we're still comfortably 'beyond.' 

I was able to sell the properties 'as-is' for cash without using a sales agent or staging the properties, just putting up 'for sale by owner' signs linked to a cheap 'VoIP' phone number, so there were virtually no sales costs other than the cost of that trip - total cost for answering / returning the couple hundred phone calls I got was a couple of bucks.  I know that the housing market is slumping overall but my sense of things when I was selling in September was that the bottom end of the market (cheap fixer-uppers / 'handyman's specials') was still very strong, perhaps because folks do really want to buy but are getting priced out of the more expensive market segments so demand at the bottom may even be still growing. Of course that was two months and a couple of interest rate hikes ago, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a bit more softening even with the recent drop in mortgage rates.

I was finally able to get some foreign travel in this year, restarting my 'bucket list adventures' by doing five weeks in Australia.  I also did some domestic adventuring, hiking in Joshua Tree and Grand Teton NPs, visiting friends in the midwest, and going down to FL twice - once for a quick beach getaway, the other time to deal with the property sale. I'm still working on plans for 2023 but hope to get to Chile's Atacama Desert (perhaps in the fall/Chile's spring), to the Baltic States in the spring, and to Tanzania and Kenya in August in order to watch the wildebeest migration and to climb Kilimanjaro.

The only place that my spending has been dramatically affected by inflation in this year was on the Australian trip.  Despite the good exchange rate, my budget took a beating from high airfares - $1800 to Sydney and then another $1500 on internal flights.  This was certainly my most expensive trip ever, at about $8k for the 5 1/2 weeks. I've generally targeted $1k/week for travel so that's about a 45% increase.

Other inflation observations:

- My biggest expense is my rent, which hasn't been raised since 2017.  So that helps keep the overall inflation adjustment down considerably.
- Next biggest is my ACA coverage, which is going to rise by about 12% next year. When you factor in the extra age-related cost that's probably about in line with overall inflation.  This next year will be my last full year of Obamacare - I will turn 65 and start Medicare in 2024, and I'm figuring my overall healthcare costs will drop from the $15k I budget ($13k premiums plus $2k of uncovered costs) to about half that. Since the end is in sight I haven't been sweating the big current pricetag too much.
- Food in the supermarket is up considerably and we've compensated to a degree by shifting from Safeway to Aldi and even Whole Foods which seems to be offering better value than Safeway these days especially if you take advantage of the Prime deals.
- Food in restaurants is up a fair bit, maybe 20%, but we've cut back our restaurant going a lot since the pandemic and with cold weather incipient here in Washington DC, we'll likely be dining out a lot less in the coming months... by dining out I mean literally outside as my SO still hasn't transitioned to indoor dining (I've only recently restarted this, subsequent to getting my bivalent Covid booster).
- I think that my electricity bill (includes electric heat) has risen but it's been a little hard to assess as my usage patterns have recently shifted.
- Phone bill and main TV service (google's YouTubeTV) are unchanged.  Some streaming service increases (perhaps 15% overall on these).  Reduction in my internet bill of 40% after threatening to cancel service and switch to a competitor.
- Uber costs are much higher and we have offset this by using it much less. This is in my estimation only partly an inflation story and partly an 'Uber is no longer intentionally selling trips below cost' story.
- We use very little petrol so even though gas prices have risen substantially from where they were before the Ukraine War, it hasn't affected our budget much.

I think that overall my spending is up about 10% for the year, but a big chunk of that is because travel was limited last year and I've returned to near my budgeted travel expenditure level of ~$15k.

The main thing we've changed financially besides my selling the property has been for my SO to start diverting income to her company's deferred compensation plan.  It's nonqualified and hence non-guaranteed so it's not without risk (if her company goes under she becomes an unsecured creditor, but typically most if not all of deferred compensation due to employees of bankrupted enterprises is eventually paid).  The plus is that it's paying prime plus some fixed percentage (maybe 2%?) which is both better than we could get from bonds, say, and provides some diversification and ballast.  She's putting 10% of her salary and 70% of her bonus into this, which added up to about 1/3 of her overall income - she also has 401(k) and taxable savings.  If we consider the NQDC balance as part of the FI portion of our financial assets we're probably about 65/35 equities/FI, and equities/FI/RE are about 55/30/15 overall.  We might eventually raise the RE portion if we combine households but that's still down the road.

Since our investment policy statement calls for an annual rebalancing of financial assets, we of course rebalanced our losses in crypto and have bought more BTC, Luna, Terra, FTT, and Solana.  No, just kidding, that was snark, we have a 0% crypto allocation.  However, I did mention this to raise a crypto point - I really wonder how many people who are advocating for x% to be allocated to crypto are going to do an annual portfolio balancing where they realize that the drops in cryptocurrency prices requires them to buy more crypto to maintain those allocations, and then they actually do it?  I think there will be few with the cojones/ovaries to not only HODL but to buy more... and that, my friends, will I believe lead to another leg down in cryptocurrency prices as new demand for the coins falls off the roof  (It would not surprise me if we see BTC at $3,000 or lower by YE 2023.)

Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 21, 2022, 07:24:07 AM

Heads up that pension lump sums are dropping precipitously Jan 1 due to increases in IRS discount rates. I’m rolling over my old pension before year end to lock in the gain. Otherwise it drops from $334k to $252k. Yes rates could go back down in the future but I don’t want to be at the whim of IRS discount rates.

If your SO is still working at the employer with the pension then maybe there isn’t anything she can do unless she decides to retire.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 21, 2022, 07:25:35 AM

Quote from: jeroly on November 20, 2022, 11:30:54 PM

It's been a roller coaster year financially for us all, and I once again feel amazingly fortunate to have mostly thrived despite market headwinds.

...

The only place that my spending has been dramatically affected by inflation in this year was on the Australian trip.  Despite the good exchange rate, my budget took a beating from high airfares - $1800 to Sydney and then another $1500 on internal flights.  This was certainly my most expensive trip ever, at about $8k for the 5 1/2 weeks. I've generally targeted $1k/week for travel so that's about a 45% increase.
...
Since our investment policy statement calls for an annual rebalancing of financial assets, we of course rebalanced our losses in crypto and have bought more BTC, Luna, Terra, FTT, and Solana.  No, just kidding, that was snark, we have a 0% crypto allocation.  However, I did mention this to raise a crypto point - I really wonder how many people who are advocating for x% to be allocated to crypto are going to do an annual portfolio balancing where they realize that the drops in cryptocurrency prices requires them to buy more crypto to maintain those allocations, and then they actually do it?  I think there will be few with the cojones/ovaries to not only HODL but to buy more... and that, my friends, will I believe lead to another leg down in cryptocurrency prices as new demand for the coins falls off the roof  (It would not surprise me if we see BTC at $3,000 or lower by YE 2023.)

I enjoyed reading your year end summary and glad that things are going well for you. I agree that the very worst inflation is in the travel sector. Every aspect of travel including airfares, hotels/AirBnB and car rentals are all way more expensive.

Regarding crypto - I have been firmly in the anti-crypto camp ever since I first started reading about it over ten years ago. I lurk a bit on the Reddit FAT Fire group and I have seen a noticeable reduction in the number of crypto bros announcing their retirements :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on November 21, 2022, 10:45:54 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 21, 2022, 07:24:07 AM

Heads up that pension lump sums are dropping precipitously Jan 1 due to increases in IRS discount rates. I’m rolling over my old pension before year end to lock in the gain. Otherwise it drops from $334k to $252k. Yes rates could go back down in the future but I don’t want to be at the whim of IRS discount rates.

If your SO is still working at the employer with the pension then maybe there isn’t anything she can do unless she decides to retire.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’ll have to check it but I’m not sure she even gets the option of a lump sum- I think she may be limited to choosing a fixed period or not, and a joint-and-survivor payout or not.

The PV is merely something I've done to come up with a way of working it into the NW calculations.
When I met my sweetie she said she wanted to work until about seventy and/or saving $5mm. I'm hoping that she'll quit when we get to a combined $10mm, which at our current rate might happen in four years or so (versus 18 years if she works to 70) if I  include that chunk of change to help get the NV there faster.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 21, 2022, 11:00:29 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 21, 2022, 07:25:35 AM

Regarding crypto - I have been firmly in the anti-crypto camp ever since I first started reading about it over ten years ago. I lurk a bit on the Reddit FAT Fire group and I have seen a noticeable reduction in the number of crypto bros announcing their retirements :-)

Lol, I always feel the Crypto Bros are like lottery winners who lose it all. They don't necessarily have the money management skills needed to cope with a windfall.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 21, 2022, 07:46:02 PM

Quote from: Dicey on November 21, 2022, 11:00:29 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 21, 2022, 07:25:35 AM

Regarding crypto - I have been firmly in the anti-crypto camp ever since I first started reading about it over ten years ago. I lurk a bit on the Reddit FAT Fire group and I have seen a noticeable reduction in the number of crypto bros announcing their retirements :-)

Lol, I always feel the Crypto Bros are like lottery winners who lose it all. They don't necessarily have the money management skills needed to cope with a windfall.

Well they tend to just roll it into more investments instead of taking profits off the table and walking away, just like at the casino.

My Crypto position has shrunk from $350 to about $135 the last I checked.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 24, 2022, 05:30:50 AM

 I know a lot of people that have gone into Crypto and for their sake I hope it comes back but its never been for me.

After reading some of your updates I am down about 18% after yesterdays slight uptick and all I can do is rebalance etc.. I have lived this whole year so far on cash and plan on doing so next year unless we get a much bigger dip then I would add to the market.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 24, 2022, 05:44:39 AM

The market has come back close to when I’m likely to make another contribution to my DAF next year. 

The market this year took my brokerage fund basically down from over funded to just plain funded.  The last few months has brought it back into the slightly overfunded stage.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on November 24, 2022, 06:19:38 AM

I've just updated my numbers and I'm up about 1% on this time last year (which means I'm actually significantly down given that I've still been earning and there has been significant inflation over the period).  HOWEVER, from that November to the previous one I was up 17%, and the previous 12 month period about 6% - so it's all just part of the natural volatility of how things evolve. 

I need to rebalance a bit - I suspect I am overweight cash and slightly overweight US at the moment - but otherwise no major concerns.  I'm just stepping into retirement now (or at least, what I consider to be retirement: I'll still be technically employed but at a very low salary and a formula that rewards me only for the work I do - so I'll feel no obligation to take on new work unless it is genuinely interesting or rewarding in some other way).

I'm only a few weeks into this new bit of life, and I'm not sure I've really "relaxed" yet as I'm keeping myself busy with many other things (including a massive backlog of lifemin): but so far it's feeling good!  And already I'm seeing the benefits of simple things like always being able to get enough sleep, being less distracted when I'm spending time with the kids, etc. etc.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on November 24, 2022, 07:09:31 AM

Quote from: LightTripper on November 24, 2022, 06:19:38 AM

I've just updated my numbers and I'm up about 1% on this time last year (which means I'm actually significantly down given that I've still been earning and there has been significant inflation over the period).  HOWEVER, from that November to the previous one I was up 17%, and the previous 12 month period about 6% - so it's all just part of the natural volatility of how things evolve. 

I need to rebalance a bit - I suspect I am overweight cash and slightly overweight US at the moment - but otherwise no major concerns.  I'm just stepping into retirement now (or at least, what I consider to be retirement: I'll still be technically employed but at a very low salary and a formula that rewards me only for the work I do - so I'll feel no obligation to take on new work unless it is genuinely interesting or rewarding in some other way).

I'm only a few weeks into this new bit of life, and I'm not sure I've really "relaxed" yet as I'm keeping myself busy with many other things (including a massive backlog of lifemin): but so far it's feeling good!  And already I'm seeing the benefits of simple things like always being able to get enough sleep, being less distracted when I'm spending time with the kids, etc. etc.

Good for you!  I'm still a couple/few years away from this point, but its good to hear your early experiences, as the next chapter is very elusive to me.   I also enjoyed hearing about your transition to retirement approach....and I can't help but to be curious on how those who have pursued this approach -- which sounds like a transition to retirement with your current employer (maybe I'm wrong) -- have been able to mange that.  My greatest fear is pulling that lever and taking on all the downside of it (lower pay), but still having to keep up with the same expectations, because, after all, its still you!

As for my situation, 2022 has been a punch that landed squarely on the jaw!  Between the market movements, my portfolio allocation (heavy equities), and some extraordinary expenses -- college, health, etc. -- I'm down about 10% from end of 2021, inclusive of contributions I've been able to make in 2022.  I don't regularly / reliably track on a monthly basis, so can't do an accurate "year ago" view.   

Back to the earlier thread, I am thankful that I steered clear of crypto -- was actually looking at it ~12-18 months ago and concluded that I couldn't deal with the uncertainty of it and the seeming ambiguity of the underlying fundamental value driver of it.   That would have been the worst possible time to get in.

Hope all of you in the US have a great Thanksgiving weekend!  The job has been crazy over the past few months and so I am hoping for a chance to unplug from that and focus on things that really matter instead of things that don't matter much yet command a large portion of my time/life/attention!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on November 24, 2022, 07:22:22 AM

Thanks @arcturus !  I do think it's really hard to imagine - you have to kind of just make a decision to make a change and then see how it fits I think, and be open to changing again if it's not working out (or if you think something else could work out better).

I'm really lucky that I work for a consulting firm where I generate my own work, and for the last few years I've been paid according to a formula (where basically I get a percentage of the revenues I bill personally plus a smaller percentage of what others bill on projects I've sourced).  So it's very scalable as long as I'm prepared to be fully flexible on when I work (i.e. even though for the last year I've been on a 24h/week contract, and paid a salary that reflects that, I may have a 60 hour week followed by several 0 hour weeks - although in general I've been pleased to find I've managed to keep things smoother than that, and my "down times" have largely coincided with school holidays).  Basically the formula gives a total compensation figure, and my salary then gets deducted from that, and whatever the balancing figure is gets paid out as a bonus at year end.  There is no possibility I get underpaid for my work (and my employer only loses out if my salary is higher than the total compensation amount at year end).

It works well in the sense that I know I will get paid for the work I do (although it's still up to me to say "no" to things or pass things on to colleagues - where the latter obviously often means passing on some of that sourcing credit too - which is fair enough if it's somebody who is going to take all responsibility for the project).  Anyway, I seem to have been fairly successful in saying "no" and reducing my hours so far, and plan to keep going next year (though with a substantially lower salary than this year, so I can really take on minimal work if I choose).  Staying employed means I continue to benefit from health, dental and travel insurance (although health is more "nice-to-have" than essential in the UK) and things like tax and professional liability insurance are all done though my employer which just makes life simple.

It's not really a reversibly flexible model (as once I've handed things over if those projects go well I'd expect that client to call my colleague next time, rather than me) - but that's fine given that I'm looking for a glide-path out.  It does mean if I change my mind I'd have to put considerable work into building up a new client base - but I really think it's very unlikely that I'll want to do that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on November 24, 2022, 08:31:44 AM

We're down about 10% from our high in April. The two biggest factors: property value drop, & overall stock drop, including company compensation largely tied to stock price. The drop includes the ~$90k or so we added throughout the year, which hurts a little.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on November 24, 2022, 08:53:04 AM

Sounds like a great situation @LightTripper !  Glad you have had the discipline to say "no."   And its great that it can be a continued source of benefits and maybe a little supplemental income, but on your terms.

On real estate values, I don't seem to have been impacted by that so much -- whether that is just based on the fact that we in the midwest don't tend to see swings up or down or whether its because my zillow valuation has always seemed a bit low, I'm not sure.   

In any event I keep my personal residence (which is my ONLY real-estate exposure anyways) out of my calcs, so its a non-factor in my 10% down figure.   Sitting at slightly under $2.1 invested at the moment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 26, 2022, 04:05:51 AM

Quote from: arcturus on November 24, 2022, 08:53:04 AM

Sounds like a great situation @LightTripper !  Glad you have had the discipline to say "no."   And its great that it can be a continued source of benefits and maybe a little supplemental income, but on your terms.

On real estate values, I don't seem to have been impacted by that so much -- whether that is just based on the fact that we in the midwest don't tend to see swings up or down or whether its because my zillow valuation has always seemed a bit low, I'm not sure.   

In any event I keep my personal residence (which is my ONLY real-estate exposure anyways) out of my calcs, so its a non-factor in my 10% down figure.   Sitting at slightly under $2.1 invested at the moment.

Like you I don't include my paid for home in my numbers. Also as well mine is still worth quite a bit more than I paid for it and being lake property in a desired area it doesn't drop if there's a drop anywhere near as much as regular real estate. There not building lakes and there is no lots on any of the ones near me so you need to spend a fortune on a tear down if you want to get on a decent lake.  But as I mentioned aside from that on a 60/40 portfolio as I have been fired for 8 years now I am down 18%. But was so far up was expecting it at some point and then some.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 06:29:34 AM

YTD we are still down 12% ($400k) which really isn’t bad when you consider the growth we saw 2 during the last two years. We are 80% equities and don’t include home value (gotta live somewhere) so our portfolio tends to follow the market pretty closely. I wonder what next year will bring. The news seems very conflicted. One article states the worst is over and the next says recession is coming in 2023.
I am sort of failing at FIRE though. I started doing some consulting 8 months after I quit. Including for my former employer (which I did not enjoy). I took on a new client in Sept and it was supposed to be a temporary deal, but they would like to make it permanent. So if we can agree on a comp and hours I may become an employee again, part time. Kinda scary. I guess if my husband is going to continue to work and we are tied down by kids school schedules, I don’t mind work some and keeping my brain occupied.
I plan to continue to spend my part time earnings on home improvement, travel (with the kids) and tuition. I will not be saving anything more than what provides tax advantages.

So is there another forum for FIRE failures or a different thread I should be in?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 27, 2022, 07:35:28 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 06:29:34 AM

So is there another forum for FIRE failures or a different thread I should be in?

There have been a fair number of posts on these lines in the post-FIRE section agonizing over how much work is ok in retirement :-) But seriously, don't be hard on yourself - just keep reminding yourself that work is entirely optional.

I am about the happiest that a person can possibly be in retirement and yet I get a small twinge when my old boss calls asking if I'd like to come back for a short assignment. Then I look at our NW and politely decline. Thanks to the recent rise in the stock market, we are back above $6M in liquid assets - we have had wild swings this year but nothing so far that would get me back to working :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 27, 2022, 07:54:05 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 26, 2022, 04:05:51 AM

Quote from: arcturus on November 24, 2022, 08:53:04 AM

Sounds like a great situation @LightTripper !  Glad you have had the discipline to say "no."   And its great that it can be a continued source of benefits and maybe a little supplemental income, but on your terms.

On real estate values, I don't seem to have been impacted by that so much -- whether that is just based on the fact that we in the midwest don't tend to see swings up or down or whether its because my zillow valuation has always seemed a bit low, I'm not sure.   

In any event I keep my personal residence (which is my ONLY real-estate exposure anyways) out of my calcs, so its a non-factor in my 10% down figure.   Sitting at slightly under $2.1 invested at the moment.

Like you I don't include my paid for home in my numbers. Also as well mine is still worth quite a bit more than I paid for it and being lake property in a desired area it doesn't drop if there's a drop anywhere near as much as regular real estate. There not building lakes and there is no lots on any of the ones near me so you need to spend a fortune on a tear down if you want to get on a decent lake.  But as I mentioned aside from that on a 60/40 portfolio as I have been fired for 8 years now I am down 18%. But was so far up was expecting it at some point and then some.

I always find this debate over whether to include real estate in one’s “calcs” odd. It should be in your NW, it’s an asset you have to manage. Whether it produces cash flow in a retirement cash flow analysis depends if the real estate is going to be sold, you do a reverse mortgage, or it’s a rental. NW is NW, and cash flow is cash flow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 27, 2022, 08:01:43 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 27, 2022, 07:35:28 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 06:29:34 AM

So is there another forum for FIRE failures or a different thread I should be in?

There have been a fair number of posts on these lines in the post-FIRE section agonizing over how much work is ok in retirement :-) But seriously, don't be hard on yourself - just keep reminding yourself that work is entirely optional.

I am about the happiest that a person can possibly be in retirement and yet I get a small twinge when my old boss calls asking if I'd like to come back for a short assignment. Then I look at our NW and politely decline. Thanks to the recent rise in the stock market, we are back above $6M in liquid assets - we have had wild swings this year but nothing so far that would get me back to working :-)

I find I have this ingrained “don’t be a quitter” and “your fellow employees need you mentality”. If I resign and retire then I feel like a let down. My whole life I’ve been “groomed” to persevere and don’t quit, keep going, we are all a team, etc. Now if my employer wants to let me go then by, that’s the permission I need. But it’s hard to change that work ethic that was drilled into me and not feel like a quitter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 08:23:36 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 27, 2022, 07:54:05 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 26, 2022, 04:05:51 AM

Quote from: arcturus on November 24, 2022, 08:53:04 AM

Sounds like a great situation @LightTripper !  Glad you have had the discipline to say "no."   And its great that it can be a continued source of benefits and maybe a little supplemental income, but on your terms.

On real estate values, I don't seem to have been impacted by that so much -- whether that is just based on the fact that we in the midwest don't tend to see swings up or down or whether its because my zillow valuation has always seemed a bit low, I'm not sure.   

In any event I keep my personal residence (which is my ONLY real-estate exposure anyways) out of my calcs, so its a non-factor in my 10% down figure.   Sitting at slightly under $2.1 invested at the moment.

Like you I don't include my paid for home in my numbers. Also as well mine is still worth quite a bit more than I paid for it and being lake property in a desired area it doesn't drop if there's a drop anywhere near as much as regular real estate. There not building lakes and there is no lots on any of the ones near me so you need to spend a fortune on a tear down if you want to get on a decent lake.  But as I mentioned aside from that on a 60/40 portfolio as I have been fired for 8 years now I am down 18%. But was so far up was expecting it at some point and then some.

I always find this debate over whether to include real estate in one’s “calcs” odd. It should be in your NW, it’s an asset you have to manage. Whether it produces cash flow in a retirement cash flow analysis depends if the real estate is going to be sold, you do a reverse mortgage, or it’s a rental. NW is NW, and cash flow is cash flow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We don’t include it because we have to live somewhere so if we sold our house we would end up using the proceeds to either buy something else or pay rent. And it is such a small portion of our total NW. maybe 10%? Although about 40% of it is mortgaged.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 08:29:20 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 27, 2022, 07:35:28 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 06:29:34 AM

So is there another forum for FIRE failures or a different thread I should be in?

There have been a fair number of posts on these lines in the post-FIRE section agonizing over how much work is ok in retirement :-) But seriously, don't be hard on yourself - just keep reminding yourself that work is entirely optional.

I am about the happiest that a person can possibly be in retirement and yet I get a small twinge when my old boss calls asking if I'd like to come back for a short assignment. Then I look at our NW and politely decline. Thanks to the recent rise in the stock market, we are back above $6M in liquid assets - we have had wild swings this year but nothing so far that would get me back to working :-)

So I think it’s really because I truly find great satisfaction in the problem solving aspect of work.
But there is part of me that must like the money because when I read your post I immediately thought “well, if I had $6M THAT would be different”. Which is of course ridiculous. We have enough. Although because of the kids we are walking into the most expensive phase of life ever. Tuition, cars, insurance etc.
Or maybe it’s because we are only 45? And if I was just a bit older retirement might feel different?
I don’t know. Likely a bit of all of it.
I do completely enjoy the feeling of having the freedom of choice though. And not having to worry.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on November 27, 2022, 12:41:41 PM

I’m finding that at this stage of our journey, simply having the choice to work or not makes it so much better. I don’t have to work, so I don’t have to take on the stress of work. Totally changes my mindset and approach. I like the work, I like the people I interact with, so I choose to spend part of my time on it. Plus with my recent job change, even though the work is similar, the underlying activities that we support are no longer mine. This allows me to mentally detach more, which again means less stress.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on November 27, 2022, 05:28:58 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 27, 2022, 07:54:05 AM

I always find this debate over whether to include real estate in one’s “calcs” odd. It should be in your NW, it’s an asset you have to manage. Whether it produces cash flow in a retirement cash flow analysis depends if the real estate is going to be sold, you do a reverse mortgage, or it’s a rental. NW is NW, and cash flow is cash flow.

Queue the sound of much cheering and clapping!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on November 27, 2022, 08:05:36 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 08:23:36 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 27, 2022, 07:54:05 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 26, 2022, 04:05:51 AM

Quote from: arcturus on November 24, 2022, 08:53:04 AM

Sounds like a great situation @LightTripper !  Glad you have had the discipline to say "no."   And its great that it can be a continued source of benefits and maybe a little supplemental income, but on your terms.

On real estate values, I don't seem to have been impacted by that so much -- whether that is just based on the fact that we in the midwest don't tend to see swings up or down or whether its because my zillow valuation has always seemed a bit low, I'm not sure.   

In any event I keep my personal residence (which is my ONLY real-estate exposure anyways) out of my calcs, so its a non-factor in my 10% down figure.   Sitting at slightly under $2.1 invested at the moment.

Like you I don't include my paid for home in my numbers. Also as well mine is still worth quite a bit more than I paid for it and being lake property in a desired area it doesn't drop if there's a drop anywhere near as much as regular real estate. There not building lakes and there is no lots on any of the ones near me so you need to spend a fortune on a tear down if you want to get on a decent lake.  But as I mentioned aside from that on a 60/40 portfolio as I have been fired for 8 years now I am down 18%. But was so far up was expecting it at some point and then some.

I always find this debate over whether to include real estate in one’s “calcs” odd. It should be in your NW, it’s an asset you have to manage. Whether it produces cash flow in a retirement cash flow analysis depends if the real estate is going to be sold, you do a reverse mortgage, or it’s a rental. NW is NW, and cash flow is cash flow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We don’t include it because we have to live somewhere so if we sold our house we would end up using the proceeds to either buy something else or pay rent. And it is such a small portion of our total NW. maybe 10%? Although about 40% of it is mortgaged.

The distinction I’m making is people should view cash flow analysis and NW as two distinct things. When people say they don’t include their real estate in their net worth it probably means they aren’t doing a CF analysis for retirement preparedness and are just looking at the size of their investment balances to see if they are retirement ready.

When I project retirement cash flows I don’t assume any from my real estate. But it’s definitely included in my NW I track. Also, I include social security in my CF analysis but I of course don’t have that in my NW, it’s not an asset I own.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 28, 2022, 04:22:16 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 08:29:20 AM

So I think it’s really because I truly find great satisfaction in the problem solving aspect of work.
But there is part of me that must like the money because when I read your post I immediately thought “well, if I had $6M THAT would be different”. Which is of course ridiculous. We have enough. Although because of the kids we are walking into the most expensive phase of life ever. Tuition, cars, insurance etc.
Or maybe it’s because we are only 45? And if I was just a bit older retirement might feel different?
I don’t know. Likely a bit of all of it.
I do completely enjoy the feeling of having the freedom of choice though. And not having to worry.

I also get a lot of pleasure from solving hard problems. I recently joined a model train club and have been helping them computerize the operations. It has been a fun exercise and I have been putting a lot of my computing experience to use - I have already written a few thousand lines of code.

I worked for thirty years in software research surrounded by experts - I never felt that I was anything special in that crowd. In contrast, I am the only member of this club with any experience in programming and it has been enjoyable explaining how computers work to them. The other club members have been very grateful for my help. I think there are many interesting opportunities to use your problem-solving skills outside of traditional work - you just need to find them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 28, 2022, 07:08:12 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 08:29:20 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 27, 2022, 07:35:28 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 06:29:34 AM

So is there another forum for FIRE failures or a different thread I should be in?

There have been a fair number of posts on these lines in the post-FIRE section agonizing over how much work is ok in retirement :-) But seriously, don't be hard on yourself - just keep reminding yourself that work is entirely optional.

I am about the happiest that a person can possibly be in retirement and yet I get a small twinge when my old boss calls asking if I'd like to come back for a short assignment. Then I look at our NW and politely decline. Thanks to the recent rise in the stock market, we are back above $6M in liquid assets - we have had wild swings this year but nothing so far that would get me back to working :-)

So I think it’s really because I truly find great satisfaction in the problem solving aspect of work.
But there is part of me that must like the money because when I read your post I immediately thought “well, if I had $6M THAT would be different”. Which is of course ridiculous. We have enough. Although because of the kids we are walking into the most expensive phase of life ever. Tuition, cars, insurance etc.
Or maybe it’s because we are only 45? And if I was just a bit older retirement might feel different?
I don’t know. Likely a bit of all of it.
I do completely enjoy the feeling of having the freedom of choice though. And not having to worry.

Even when you are long past the point of needing the money, there is still some vestigial part of us that appreciates being paid well for our time.  Ironically I probably cared less about the pay in my 20's when I knew I was good at what I did and had 'college student survival skills' vs. now nearing my 50's wondering just how much longer I can fake keeping up with the young go-getters that seem fluent in every application and software package!  Fortunately my kids are headed out in to the real world soon, so I'm not feeling that pressure to ensure I can provide for them - I would think that a fully FIRE'd couple with young kids and no income would need a sizable stache in these mixed-market times to resist the urge to return to some form of dependable income...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 30, 2022, 04:38:19 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 28, 2022, 07:08:12 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 08:29:20 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 27, 2022, 07:35:28 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 06:29:34 AM

So is there another forum for FIRE failures or a different thread I should be in?

There have been a fair number of posts on these lines in the post-FIRE section agonizing over how much work is ok in retirement :-) But seriously, don't be hard on yourself - just keep reminding yourself that work is entirely optional.

I am about the happiest that a person can possibly be in retirement and yet I get a small twinge when my old boss calls asking if I'd like to come back for a short assignment. Then I look at our NW and politely decline. Thanks to the recent rise in the stock market, we are back above $6M in liquid assets - we have had wild swings this year but nothing so far that would get me back to working :-)

So I think it’s really because I truly find great satisfaction in the problem solving aspect of work.
But there is part of me that must like the money because when I read your post I immediately thought “well, if I had $6M THAT would be different”. Which is of course ridiculous. We have enough. Although because of the kids we are walking into the most expensive phase of life ever. Tuition, cars, insurance etc.
Or maybe it’s because we are only 45? And if I was just a bit older retirement might feel different?
I don’t know. Likely a bit of all of it.
I do completely enjoy the feeling of having the freedom of choice though. And not having to worry.

Even when you are long past the point of needing the money, there is still some vestigial part of us that appreciates being paid well for our time.  Ironically I probably cared less about the pay in my 20's when I knew I was good at what I did and had 'college student survival skills' vs. now nearing my 50's wondering just how much longer I can fake keeping up with the young go-getters that seem fluent in every application and software package!  Fortunately my kids are headed out in to the real world soon, so I'm not feeling that pressure to ensure I can provide for them - I would think that a fully FIRE'd couple with young kids and no income would need a sizable stache in these mixed-market times to resist the urge to return to some form of dependable income...

Totally agree with you across the board. Fortunately I have one of four left at home and have is College funds in a 529. I never included the 4kids 529s in my NW because basically knew it was spent and to your point and others those are some expensive times. With each one that moves on there own its like a retirement pay raise for the DW and I.

For the people like me that are Fire'd and think its failure to do some work now and again I don't look at it like that. Maybe because if I do anything its a short term side hustle for cash. Next week I have a gut job on a bar there is going to be turned into a house. Guy asked me and I gave him a cash per hour rate for my son and I to do and its just a little extra cash for DW and I. I dont go out and look for things but if people ask and it works out why not make a few bucks especially this time of the year for me when I go away every month for a week on a trip.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on November 30, 2022, 08:33:38 AM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on November 30, 2022, 04:38:19 AM

For the people like me that are Fire'd and think its failure to do some work now and again I don't look at it like that. Maybe because if I do anything its a short term side hustle for cash. Next week I have a gut job on a bar there is going to be turned into a house. Guy asked me and I gave him a cash per hour rate for my son and I to do and its just a little extra cash for DW and I. I dont go out and look for things but if people ask and it works out why not make a few bucks especially this time of the year for me when I go away every month for a week on a trip.

I FIREd about 21 years ago and I've worked for a paycheck perhaps five or so of those years, as well as working for my own company for a year and a half or so.  I've never viewed those stints as failures but rather successes; thanks to having 'FU' money, I've been able to choose projects I have been passionate about, without needing to particularly care about the salary or career path or office politics or any of the usual BS. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 30, 2022, 09:25:16 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 28, 2022, 07:08:12 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 08:29:20 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 27, 2022, 07:35:28 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 06:29:34 AM

So is there another forum for FIRE failures or a different thread I should be in?

There have been a fair number of posts on these lines in the post-FIRE section agonizing over how much work is ok in retirement :-) But seriously, don't be hard on yourself - just keep reminding yourself that work is entirely optional.

I am about the happiest that a person can possibly be in retirement and yet I get a small twinge when my old boss calls asking if I'd like to come back for a short assignment. Then I look at our NW and politely decline. Thanks to the recent rise in the stock market, we are back above $6M in liquid assets - we have had wild swings this year but nothing so far that would get me back to working :-)

So I think it’s really because I truly find great satisfaction in the problem solving aspect of work.
But there is part of me that must like the money because when I read your post I immediately thought “well, if I had $6M THAT would be different”. Which is of course ridiculous. We have enough. Although because of the kids we are walking into the most expensive phase of life ever. Tuition, cars, insurance etc.
Or maybe it’s because we are only 45? And if I was just a bit older retirement might feel different?
I don’t know. Likely a bit of all of it.
I do completely enjoy the feeling of having the freedom of choice though. And not having to worry.

Even when you are long past the point of needing the money, there is still some vestigial part of us that appreciates being paid well for our time.  Ironically I probably cared less about the pay in my 20's when I knew I was good at what I did and had 'college student survival skills' vs. now nearing my 50's wondering just how much longer I can fake keeping up with the young go-getters that seem fluent in every application and software package!  Fortunately my kids are headed out in to the real world soon, so I'm not feeling that pressure to ensure I can provide for them - I would think that a fully FIRE'd couple with young kids and no income would need a sizable stache in these mixed-market times to resist the urge to return to some form of dependable income...

The challenge of FIRE with kids is something I don't think is talked about enough on the forum. Many have this "just say no" attitude. DH and I are completely unwilling to not give education and experiences to our kids so that we can not work. I'm not saying that approach is wrong, it's just one we cannot take.
.
Our crazy expenses-
Sports (including private swing coach for golf and club soccer (no travel though)
elementary and pending HS tuition (HS is $15k elementary is $4k)
car insurance for future driver (have you all seen what they charge to add boys to your car insurance?? It's nuts. Or so I hear. We've got a few years still)
He'll need a car- will give him my 12 YO CRV to start. There is no bussing to HS in our area.
And finally family trips. We can blow $8k on a family vacation without thinking about it.

Health insurance if we quit would be a huge blow to our budget. I think we could do it, but it would pinch other areas.

I don't regret any of it. NONE. DH is happy to continue to work to pay for it. And I can stay home and be an Uber for the kids and friends.

Once they go to college they can tap their 529s which are not included in our NW. And they can work to pay living expenses. Or they can live at home. Or they can go to free college at University DH works at. So it's four more years and then one kid should get cheaper and then four more years for the other.

I just feel like there is always the sentiment on the forum that you shouldn't let kids keep you from FIRE and I really don't know how you don't. It's expensive. But short lived really.
just my $0.02.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 30, 2022, 11:28:30 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 30, 2022, 09:25:16 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 28, 2022, 07:08:12 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 08:29:20 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 27, 2022, 07:35:28 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 06:29:34 AM

So is there another forum for FIRE failures or a different thread I should be in?

There have been a fair number of posts on these lines in the post-FIRE section agonizing over how much work is ok in retirement :-) But seriously, don't be hard on yourself - just keep reminding yourself that work is entirely optional.

I am about the happiest that a person can possibly be in retirement and yet I get a small twinge when my old boss calls asking if I'd like to come back for a short assignment. Then I look at our NW and politely decline. Thanks to the recent rise in the stock market, we are back above $6M in liquid assets - we have had wild swings this year but nothing so far that would get me back to working :-)

So I think it’s really because I truly find great satisfaction in the problem solving aspect of work.
But there is part of me that must like the money because when I read your post I immediately thought “well, if I had $6M THAT would be different”. Which is of course ridiculous. We have enough. Although because of the kids we are walking into the most expensive phase of life ever. Tuition, cars, insurance etc.
Or maybe it’s because we are only 45? And if I was just a bit older retirement might feel different?
I don’t know. Likely a bit of all of it.
I do completely enjoy the feeling of having the freedom of choice though. And not having to worry.

Even when you are long past the point of needing the money, there is still some vestigial part of us that appreciates being paid well for our time.  Ironically I probably cared less about the pay in my 20's when I knew I was good at what I did and had 'college student survival skills' vs. now nearing my 50's wondering just how much longer I can fake keeping up with the young go-getters that seem fluent in every application and software package!  Fortunately my kids are headed out in to the real world soon, so I'm not feeling that pressure to ensure I can provide for them - I would think that a fully FIRE'd couple with young kids and no income would need a sizable stache in these mixed-market times to resist the urge to return to some form of dependable income...

The challenge of FIRE with kids is something I don't think is talked about enough on the forum. Many have this "just say no" attitude. DH and I are completely unwilling to not give education and experiences to our kids so that we can not work. I'm not saying that approach is wrong, it's just one we cannot take.
.
Our crazy expenses-
Sports (including private swing coach for golf and club soccer (no travel though)
elementary and pending HS tuition (HS is $15k elementary is $4k)
car insurance for future driver (have you all seen what they charge to add boys to your car insurance?? It's nuts. Or so I hear. We've got a few years still)
He'll need a car- will give him my 12 YO CRV to start. There is no bussing to HS in our area.
And finally family trips. We can blow $8k on a family vacation without thinking about it.

Health insurance if we quit would be a huge blow to our budget. I think we could do it, but it would pinch other areas.

I don't regret any of it. NONE. DH is happy to continue to work to pay for it. And I can stay home and be an Uber for the kids and friends.

Once they go to college they can tap their 529s which are not included in our NW. And they can work to pay living expenses. Or they can live at home. Or they can go to free college at University DH works at. So it's four more years and then one kid should get cheaper and then four more years for the other.

I just feel like there is always the sentiment on the forum that you shouldn't let kids keep you from FIRE and I really don't know how you don't. It's expensive. But short lived really.
just my $0.02.

I’ll compare kids to my cat.  (I know not the same thing).  Both the kids and my cat are personal choices.  I don’t have to have either.  But since I chose to have a cat, it’s my responsibility to provide to for the fuzz butt to the best of my ability.  Which would mean if I had kids, reasonable activities and college would have to be paid for because income from my job could do so.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on November 30, 2022, 12:20:45 PM

Kids are like cats... most of the time they ignore you, then they bug you for food, they bite the hand that feeds them, and it seems as though they are always plotting against you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 30, 2022, 12:36:48 PM

My cat totally thinks he’s another kid. And he might be just as spoiled!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 30, 2022, 01:13:16 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 30, 2022, 09:25:16 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 28, 2022, 07:08:12 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 08:29:20 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 27, 2022, 07:35:28 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 27, 2022, 06:29:34 AM

So is there another forum for FIRE failures or a different thread I should be in?

There have been a fair number of posts on these lines in the post-FIRE section agonizing over how much work is ok in retirement :-) But seriously, don't be hard on yourself - just keep reminding yourself that work is entirely optional.

I am about the happiest that a person can possibly be in retirement and yet I get a small twinge when my old boss calls asking if I'd like to come back for a short assignment. Then I look at our NW and politely decline. Thanks to the recent rise in the stock market, we are back above $6M in liquid assets - we have had wild swings this year but nothing so far that would get me back to working :-)

So I think it’s really because I truly find great satisfaction in the problem solving aspect of work.
But there is part of me that must like the money because when I read your post I immediately thought “well, if I had $6M THAT would be different”. Which is of course ridiculous. We have enough. Although because of the kids we are walking into the most expensive phase of life ever. Tuition, cars, insurance etc.
Or maybe it’s because we are only 45? And if I was just a bit older retirement might feel different?
I don’t know. Likely a bit of all of it.
I do completely enjoy the feeling of having the freedom of choice though. And not having to worry.

Even when you are long past the point of needing the money, there is still some vestigial part of us that appreciates being paid well for our time.  Ironically I probably cared less about the pay in my 20's when I knew I was good at what I did and had 'college student survival skills' vs. now nearing my 50's wondering just how much longer I can fake keeping up with the young go-getters that seem fluent in every application and software package!  Fortunately my kids are headed out in to the real world soon, so I'm not feeling that pressure to ensure I can provide for them - I would think that a fully FIRE'd couple with young kids and no income would need a sizable stache in these mixed-market times to resist the urge to return to some form of dependable income...

The challenge of FIRE with kids is something I don't think is talked about enough on the forum. Many have this "just say no" attitude. DH and I are completely unwilling to not give education and experiences to our kids so that we can not work. I'm not saying that approach is wrong, it's just one we cannot take.
.
Our crazy expenses-
Sports (including private swing coach for golf and club soccer (no travel though)
elementary and pending HS tuition (HS is $15k elementary is $4k)
car insurance for future driver (have you all seen what they charge to add boys to your car insurance?? It's nuts. Or so I hear. We've got a few years still)
He'll need a car- will give him my 12 YO CRV to start. There is no bussing to HS in our area.
And finally family trips. We can blow $8k on a family vacation without thinking about it.

Health insurance if we quit would be a huge blow to our budget. I think we could do it, but it would pinch other areas.

I don't regret any of it. NONE. DH is happy to continue to work to pay for it. And I can stay home and be an Uber for the kids and friends.

Once they go to college they can tap their 529s which are not included in our NW. And they can work to pay living expenses. Or they can live at home. Or they can go to free college at University DH works at. So it's four more years and then one kid should get cheaper and then four more years for the other.

I just feel like there is always the sentiment on the forum that you shouldn't let kids keep you from FIRE and I really don't know how you don't. It's expensive. But short lived really.
just my $0.02.

I think it's possible under a reasonable framework.

I FIREd at 46 with 3 kids, at that time aged 21, 16, and 14.  I was pretty sure I had enough money, as at that time I was running at about a 2% withdrawal rate.

My deal with myself was that we would continue to live life the way we had been living and I would not let the lack of income prevent us from doing what we would typically choose to do.  And if that ever ceased to be the case, I would go back to work.

I had some things going for me.  My kids were at least teenagers and I could see the trajectory of their lives and expenses within certain broad ranges.  My WR% was low, and it went even lower as I realized that I wasn't including certain income streams that actually added up to a fair bit, so my net WR% was more like 1%.  2016 turned out to be a good start year with respect to SORR.  My kids didn't do anything weird or drastic or expensive.  I also had saved up what I thought was enough in their college savings.  And my youngest ended up getting a more than full ride to college which obviously helped.  ACA health insurance has been reasonably priced.

Each family gets to decide, at least I think we do, where the line is between providing what is considered a necessity, a nice to have, or spoiling the kid.  Where I draw the line might be different from where you do.  For my kids, that meant everything paid for up through high school except cell phones and cars, plus a college education.  Their mother chose to help with cars.

After I retired, my oldest finished college.  My younger two ended up going to expensive private high schools which I paid for.  None of my kids did sports but my youngest has a $4K viola which I bought.  We've taken trips to England for the Goodwood Festival of Speed, Nevada to drive $500K worth of supercars and climb Boundary Peak, and NYC to see Hamilton on Broadway.

One of the surprises for me in early retirement was being able to drive my younger kids around for a bit before they got their drivers' licenses.  They really opened up to me in those car rides, and I think we have a much deeper and stronger relationship as a result.  Even if the money situation hadn't worked out for us, I would have considered that benefit alone worth a great deal.

My point is that it is not necessarily a tradeoff between FIRE and providing for your kids in the way you see fit - if you have enough money, and plan prudently, and have some average to good luck go your way, you can do both.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on November 30, 2022, 01:47:37 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on November 30, 2022, 01:13:16 PM

My point is that it is not necessarily a tradeoff between FIRE and providing for your kids in the way you see fit - if you have enough money, and plan prudently, and have some average to good luck go your way, you can do both.

I really appreciate your perspective having been through it. I felt comfortable to FIRE in 2020 even though I knew we would be facing some very expensive years. My DH does not. And I understand his feelings because there are still a lot of unknowns in our budget for the next ten years or so. I guess that’s what I feel like isn’t talked about. How you plan for what your kids will want or need in their various stages.
We did recently have a talk about possible University downsizing (birth dearth and all) and we looked at the numbers and reminded ourselves we could do it if he was let go.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on November 30, 2022, 02:46:37 PM

Quote from: dividendman on November 30, 2022, 12:20:45 PM

Kids are like cats... most of the time they ignore you, then they bug you for food, they bite the hand that feeds them, and it seems as though they are always plotting against you.

This is so good I am texting it to my 17 year old….

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 30, 2022, 03:04:38 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 30, 2022, 01:47:37 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on November 30, 2022, 01:13:16 PM

My point is that it is not necessarily a tradeoff between FIRE and providing for your kids in the way you see fit - if you have enough money, and plan prudently, and have some average to good luck go your way, you can do both.

I really appreciate your perspective having been through it. I felt comfortable to FIRE in 2020 even though I knew we would be facing some very expensive years. My DH does not. And I understand his feelings because there are still a lot of unknowns in our budget for the next ten years or so. I guess that’s what I feel like isn’t talked about. How you plan for what your kids will want or need in their various stages.
We did recently have a talk about possible University downsizing (birth dearth and all) and we looked at the numbers and reminded ourselves we could do it if he was let go.

Yeah, making predictions is hard, especially about the future (Karl Kristian Steincke).

You can make plans to set aside money for stuff and plans.  The future never ends up exactly as we predict, so you'll either save too much or not enough.  You can have margin, but how much margin is enough and how much is too much?  The answer to that question varies by individual personality and people's circumstances.

In retrospect, I had too much margin.  We know there is bad luck, bad SORR, and stuff that turns out more expensive than we expect, or have expenses we forgot to foresee.  And we plan for worst case scenarios like a repeat of the Great Depression, the stagflation of the 1970s, or the GFC of 2008.  I didn't plan or expect my two younger kids to go to expensive private high schools, for example.

But on the other hand, there is sometimes good luck, good SORR, income we forgot to account for, or side gigs that pop up.  I didn't plan on 2016 being a good year.  I didn't plan on a side gig that covers about a 1/3 of my expenses.  I didn't account for some life insurance proceeds.  I didn't plan on my youngest getting a full ride to college.  These kinds of good things are also not mentioned much - maybe we are afraid of jinxing things, or appearing to be incautious or braggarts, or worried about annoying or offending people who end up with worse luck for whatever reason.

If my retirement timeline had me retiring at the beginning of this year, I probably would be singing a different tune.  You rolls the dice and you takes your chances, they say.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 01, 2022, 08:45:00 AM

Counting on good things to happen sounds like a bad plan on the surface, but it does seem like things work out better than expected more often than not.  For example, we have over $100k in a 529 for my son and he is attending a trade school which will run about $40k all said and done!  Still have to pay for our daughter who is going the more traditional 4 year degree route, but we will still spend about $100k less than I expected.  Haven't finished the parenting race yet, but the biggest expenditure is mostly covered at this point.  I feel much more prepared for FIRE, even with the mixed markets, but the FI part was never really the thing holding me back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on December 02, 2022, 07:19:51 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 30, 2022, 09:25:16 AM

The challenge of FIRE with kids is something I don't think is talked about enough on the forum. Many have this "just say no" attitude. DH and I are completely unwilling to not give education and experiences to our kids so that we can not work. I'm not saying that approach is wrong, it's just one we cannot take.
.
Our crazy expenses-
Sports (including private swing coach for golf and club soccer (no travel though)
elementary and pending HS tuition (HS is $15k elementary is $4k)
car insurance for future driver (have you all seen what they charge to add boys to your car insurance?? It's nuts. Or so I hear. We've got a few years still)
He'll need a car- will give him my 12 YO CRV to start. There is no bussing to HS in our area.
And finally family trips. We can blow $8k on a family vacation without thinking about it.

Health insurance if we quit would be a huge blow to our budget. I think we could do it, but it would pinch other areas.

I don't regret any of it. NONE. DH is happy to continue to work to pay for it. And I can stay home and be an Uber for the kids and friends.

Once they go to college they can tap their 529s which are not included in our NW. And they can work to pay living expenses. Or they can live at home. Or they can go to free college at University DH works at. So it's four more years and then one kid should get cheaper and then four more years for the other.

I just feel like there is always the sentiment on the forum that you shouldn't let kids keep you from FIRE and I really don't know how you don't. It's expensive. But short lived really.
just my $.02.

Your view/experience is pretty consistent with ours.  It's really just math, if you spend more you need more.   We didn't feel it was fair to give up our high paying jobs and tell our three kids your on your own for college so we set aside enough thatbthey each could go to most, all except the most expensive, state schools with out of state tuition.  If they end up going in state or get scholarships/aid then win for us.   Like you we don't count I in our NW.   

And you're not kidding about travel....family of five it adds up real quick just starting with 5 airfares, large enough rental to handle 5 plus luggage, and a place to stay that is big enough (thank goodness for AirBNB)....all that is a small fortune and before you do anything fun when your there.  Sure, we have done some car travel and camping trips and crammed into a hotel room for a few nights but we want to do more than that and want to travel a bit more further with the kids.   

I recently went back to work partly bc I was a bit bored and partly to pad the stash for more travel costs (probably the one are I under budgeted) and maybe a little buffer for inflation/turbulent times and unknown college costs (even if we already stashed a ton away).  But really I probably don't need to be working for more money as we have buffers such as $$$$ kids activities thatvwill be going away in the next few years and bigger picture all the kid related costs $$$$$ that will go away when they leave the nest in general.   

But yeah, it was import ant to us and I don't regret it.   Maybe my perspective would be different if I was a lower earner and really had to choose us vs them....fortunately I didn't have to.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on December 02, 2022, 03:12:03 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on October 29, 2022, 08:00:10 AM

I’ve got to brag on my sub 26 year old new co worker (still on her parents health care because I mentioned looking at the HDHP plans during open season).  She is already maxing out TSP while now living in the Bay Area on a salary with a base of less than 80k.  I also had the other new person up their TSP from 5 to 10% to start getting closer to the max.

By now, she's either without insurance or hopefully on the company plan.  When she turned 26, she could stay on her parents' plan only until the end of the month where her birthday was.  This is a qualifying event for her to join the company insurance plan.  The bad thing is that the full deductible will likely mean she pays the premiums and gets nothing back for this year.

My son turned 26 in July, so I know exactly what happens.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on December 02, 2022, 03:20:11 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on December 02, 2022, 07:19:51 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 30, 2022, 09:25:16 AM

The challenge of FIRE with kids is something I don't think is talked about enough on the forum. Many have this "just say no" attitude. DH and I are completely unwilling to not give education and experiences to our kids so that we can not work. I'm not saying that approach is wrong, it's just one we cannot take.
.
Our crazy expenses-
Sports (including private swing coach for golf and club soccer (no travel though)
elementary and pending HS tuition (HS is $15k elementary is $4k)
car insurance for future driver (have you all seen what they charge to add boys to your car insurance?? It's nuts. Or so I hear. We've got a few years still)
He'll need a car- will give him my 12 YO CRV to start. There is no bussing to HS in our area.
And finally family trips. We can blow $8k on a family vacation without thinking about it.

Health insurance if we quit would be a huge blow to our budget. I think we could do it, but it would pinch other areas.

I don't regret any of it. NONE. DH is happy to continue to work to pay for it. And I can stay home and be an Uber for the kids and friends.

Once they go to college they can tap their 529s which are not included in our NW. And they can work to pay living expenses. Or they can live at home. Or they can go to free college at University DH works at. So it's four more years and then one kid should get cheaper and then four more years for the other.

I just feel like there is always the sentiment on the forum that you shouldn't let kids keep you from FIRE and I really don't know how you don't. It's expensive. But short lived really.
just my $.02.

Your view/experience is pretty consistent with ours.  It's really just math, if you spend more you need more.   We didn't feel it was fair to give up our high paying jobs and tell our three kids your on your own for college so we set aside enough thatbthey each could go to most, all except the most expensive, state schools with out of state tuition.  If they end up going in state or get scholarships/aid then win for us.   Like you we don't count I in our NW.   

And you're not kidding about travel....family of five it adds up real quick just starting with 5 airfares, large enough rental to handle 5 plus luggage, and a place to stay that is big enough (thank goodness for AirBNB)....all that is a small fortune and before you do anything fun when your there.  Sure, we have done some car travel and camping trips and crammed into a hotel room for a few nights but we want to do more than that and want to travel a bit more further with the kids.   

I recently went back to work partly bc I was a bit bored and partly to pad the stash for more travel costs (probably the one are I under budgeted) and maybe a little buffer for inflation/turbulent times and unknown college costs (even if we already stashed a ton away).  But really I probably don't need to be working for more money as we have buffers such as $$$$ kids activities thatvwill be going away in the next few years and bigger picture all the kid related costs $$$$$ that will go away when they leave the nest in general.   

But yeah, it was import ant to us and I don't regret it.   Maybe my perspective would be different if I was a lower earner and really had to choose us vs them....fortunately I didn't have to.

This might be me too come February/March (if I get my act in gear doing CPE to renew my CPA license in active status).  We have the assets at middle of this race, but the expenses of "and beyond" for at least the next 4-5 years.  Three years off and a waver between bored and crabby.  No one else can take the vacations I want to take because they are working full time.  However, the "and beyond" part of the expenses lies solidly on my husband's side of the equation.  Their college expenses are budgeted and saved for, but fancier travel is not in there.  I want to budget for at least 15 years of expensive travel, and likely expensive travel to include my children and their significant others during their "poorer" years.  Yes, I don't have to, but I might like to.  If I'm working, I'm not bored at home - just complaining about work! LOL.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on December 02, 2022, 04:26:22 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 27, 2022, 05:28:58 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 27, 2022, 07:54:05 AM

I always find this debate over whether to include real estate in one’s “calcs” odd. It should be in your NW, it’s an asset you have to manage. Whether it produces cash flow in a retirement cash flow analysis depends if the real estate is going to be sold, you do a reverse mortgage, or it’s a rental. NW is NW, and cash flow is cash flow.

Queue the sound of much cheering and clapping!

My ledger my rules. BUT, it is at least important to specify what your personal GAAP is when trying to have a discussion. Ditto for how DCA has (at least) two different meanings. Same with savings rate, and so on. To each their own, but when questions are asked, it is quite important to make it clear what’s where.

Without clarity, we may as well be politicians.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on December 03, 2022, 08:09:34 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on December 02, 2022, 04:26:22 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 27, 2022, 05:28:58 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 27, 2022, 07:54:05 AM

I always find this debate over whether to include real estate in one’s “calcs” odd. It should be in your NW, it’s an asset you have to manage. Whether it produces cash flow in a retirement cash flow analysis depends if the real estate is going to be sold, you do a reverse mortgage, or it’s a rental. NW is NW, and cash flow is cash flow.

Queue the sound of much cheering and clapping!

My ledger my rules. BUT, it is at least important to specify what your personal GAAP is when trying to have a discussion. Ditto for how DCA has (at least) two different meanings. Same with savings rate, and so on. To each their own, but when questions are asked, it is quite important to make it clear what’s where.

Without clarity, we may as well be politicians.

Sure, but real estate should be more cut and dry on a personal level. Kinda weird to cut it out of your NW ledger. But totally understand it not producing cash flow in your house hold cash flow statement and projection . My point is most people skip the cash flow analysis part and just look at their NW and ask “can I retire”? Really need to do a cash flow analysis to see if one is retirement ready, not look at NW. NW does provide the cash flow input into the cash flow analysis.

NW should be straight forward. Cash flow analysis has a billion different assumptions that are different for each household. Yeah, it good to say what you are assuming in that analysis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on December 03, 2022, 08:17:44 AM

So really, to be pedantic, instead of saying one excludes their reals estate from their NW, they should say they assume no cash flow from their real estate in their retirement cash flow analysis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 03, 2022, 07:17:04 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 02, 2022, 03:12:03 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on October 29, 2022, 08:00:10 AM

I’ve got to brag on my sub 26 year old new co worker (still on her parents health care because I mentioned looking at the HDHP plans during open season).  She is already maxing out TSP while now living in the Bay Area on a salary with a base of less than 80k.  I also had the other new person up their TSP from 5 to 10% to start getting closer to the max.

By now, she's either without insurance or hopefully on the company plan.  When she turned 26, she could stay on her parents' plan only until the end of the month where her birthday was.  This is a qualifying event for her to join the company insurance plan.  The bad thing is that the full deductible will likely mean she pays the premiums and gets nothing back for this year.

My son turned 26 in July, so I know exactly what happens.

When she turns 26 she’ll be on Federal Employee Health benefits.  I haven’t asked when that is, it might be a year or two.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Midwest_Handlebar on December 15, 2022, 08:32:46 AM

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on December 15, 2022, 08:49:39 AM

Quote from: Midwest_Handlebar on December 15, 2022, 08:32:46 AM

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

Better to ask for forgiveness than permission!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 15, 2022, 08:54:08 AM

Quote from: Midwest_Handlebar on December 15, 2022, 08:32:46 AM

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

We will have to do a full audit of your accounts, sounds like you are counting real estate in your net worth which is a lightning rod around these parts (LOL)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on December 15, 2022, 08:56:24 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 15, 2022, 08:54:08 AM

Quote from: Midwest_Handlebar on December 15, 2022, 08:32:46 AM

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

We will have to do a full audit of your accounts, sounds like you are counting real estate in your net worth which is a lightning rod around these parts (LOL)

Don't worry @Midwest_Handlebar, I'm only in here because I count PV of our SS benefits as an asset on the balance sheet ;)

(https://www.kitces.com/blog/valuing-social-security-benefits-as-an-asset-on-the-household-balance-sheet/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Midwest_Handlebar on December 15, 2022, 09:17:10 AM

Well now you tell me! I also have a $1B valuation on the crypto token that I created earlier this year. Technically we're at $1,002,040,000.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 15, 2022, 09:28:02 AM

Quote from: Midwest_Handlebar on December 15, 2022, 09:17:10 AM

Well now you tell me! I also have a $1B valuation on the crypto token that I created earlier this year. Technically we're at $1,002,040,000.

Well obviously that is fine...  until it isn't LOL  By the way, can I give you some of my useless fiat for it?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Midwest_Handlebar on December 15, 2022, 09:30:35 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 15, 2022, 09:28:02 AM

Quote from: Midwest_Handlebar on December 15, 2022, 09:17:10 AM

Well now you tell me! I also have a $1B valuation on the crypto token that I created earlier this year. Technically we're at $1,002,040,000.

Well obviously that is fine...  until it isn't LOL  By the way, can I give you some of my useless fiat for it?

Absolutely! I was planning on borrowing against it to fund my gambling addiction.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: sisto on December 15, 2022, 11:04:13 AM

Quote from: Midwest_Handlebar on December 15, 2022, 08:32:46 AM

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

I'm still here even after dipping in and out a few times. Also I technically only have around $1.9M right now unless I include my $500K + paid off house. I did also just give my kind $110K yesterday for a home purchase and the older one got that a year and a half ago. Hopefully I won't get kicked out of the group. LOL

WELCOME! :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on December 15, 2022, 11:22:41 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on December 15, 2022, 08:56:24 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 15, 2022, 08:54:08 AM

Quote from: Midwest_Handlebar on December 15, 2022, 08:32:46 AM

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

We will have to do a full audit of your accounts, sounds like you are counting real estate in your net worth which is a lightning rod around these parts (LOL)

Don't worry @Midwest_Handlebar, I'm only in here because I count PV of our SS benefits as an asset on the balance sheet ;)

(https://www.kitces.com/blog/valuing-social-security-benefits-as-an-asset-on-the-household-balance-sheet/)

I hadn't seen that article.  Interesting!  (& I fall in here with that included as well - regardless of only LNW hard numbers or adding TNW approximation of additional physical assets.) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 16, 2022, 05:11:26 PM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on December 15, 2022, 08:56:24 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 15, 2022, 08:54:08 AM

Quote from: Midwest_Handlebar on December 15, 2022, 08:32:46 AM

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

We will have to do a full audit of your accounts, sounds like you are counting real estate in your net worth which is a lightning rod around these parts (LOL)

Don't worry @Midwest_Handlebar, I'm only in here because I count PV of our SS benefits as an asset on the balance sheet ;)

(https://www.kitces.com/blog/valuing-social-security-benefits-as-an-asset-on-the-household-balance-sheet/)

Love it!!  Funny!  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 22, 2022, 10:01:47 PM

OMG, OMG.  I didn’t know this was even a proposal.

Section 329 "Modification of Eligible Age for Exemption from Early Withdrawal Penalty", of HR 2617, Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2023, eliminates 10% early withdrawal penalty for LEO's that retire after 25 years of age but haven't reached the year they turn 50 yet.

I had a plan, but now I can access my retirement funds when I retire at 47 with no penalty. 

ETA:  well the house could lose it somehow before tomorrow morning but most likely not.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2KidFIRE on December 23, 2022, 10:37:41 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 22, 2022, 10:01:47 PM

OMG, OMG.  I didn’t know this was even a proposal.

Section 329 "Modification of Eligible Age for Exemption from Early Withdrawal Penalty", of HR 2617, Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2023, eliminates 10% early withdrawal penalty for LEO's that retire after 25 years of age but haven't reached the year they turn 50 yet.

I had a plan, but now I can access my retirement funds when I retire at 47 with no penalty. 

ETA:  well the house could lose it somehow before tomorrow morning but most likely not.

This seems almost too good to be true.  What is an "LEO"?  Also, it talks about not yet reaching the age of 50 but I though that you had to be 59.5 to avoid the penalty?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 23, 2022, 11:00:31 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on December 23, 2022, 10:37:41 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 22, 2022, 10:01:47 PM

OMG, OMG.  I didn’t know this was even a proposal.

Section 329 "Modification of Eligible Age for Exemption from Early Withdrawal Penalty", of HR 2617, Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2023, eliminates 10% early withdrawal penalty for LEO's that retire after 25 years of age but haven't reached the year they turn 50 yet.

I had a plan, but now I can access my retirement funds when I retire at 47 with no penalty. 

ETA:  well the house could lose it somehow before tomorrow morning but most likely not.

This seems almost too good to be true.  What is an "LEO"?  Also, it talks about not yet reaching the age of 50 but I though that you had to be 59.5 to avoid the penalty?

That is the change.  LEO is Law enforcement officer.  There is an exception already in the law that allows for withdrawal at age 50 similar to the rule of 55.  The new provision lowers that age to basically for a federal worker in special category retirement provisions to when did person is eligible to retire.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 24, 2022, 10:05:54 AM

First I was bummed because we're already past the age of early withdrawal penalties.  Now I'm bummed because I assumed whatever a "LEO" was, it benefitted a larger chunk of mustachians.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 24, 2022, 10:58:51 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 24, 2022, 10:05:54 AM

First I was bummed because we're already past the age of early withdrawal penalties.  Now I'm bummed because I assumed whatever a "LEO" was, it benefitted a larger chunk of mustachians.

Hey, I was thinking it was people born in late July - late August!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on December 24, 2022, 04:55:18 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on December 03, 2022, 08:09:34 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on December 02, 2022, 04:26:22 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on November 27, 2022, 05:28:58 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on November 27, 2022, 07:54:05 AM

I always find this debate over whether to include real estate in one’s “calcs” odd. It should be in your NW, it’s an asset you have to manage. Whether it produces cash flow in a retirement cash flow analysis depends if the real estate is going to be sold, you do a reverse mortgage, or it’s a rental. NW is NW, and cash flow is cash flow.

Queue the sound of much cheering and clapping!

My ledger my rules. BUT, it is at least important to specify what your personal GAAP is when trying to have a discussion. Ditto for how DCA has (at least) two different meanings. Same with savings rate, and so on. To each their own, but when questions are asked, it is quite important to make it clear what’s where.

Without clarity, we may as well be politicians.

Sure, but real estate should be more cut and dry on a personal level. Kinda weird to cut it out of your NW ledger. But totally understand it not producing cash flow in your house hold cash flow statement and projection . My point is most people skip the cash flow analysis part and just look at their NW and ask “can I retire”? Really need to do a cash flow analysis to see if one is retirement ready, not look at NW. NW does provide the cash flow input into the cash flow analysis.

NW should be straight forward. Cash flow analysis has a billion different assumptions that are different for each household. Yeah, it good to say what you are assuming in that analysis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe look at post #1 of this thread.  Investable assets are pretty easy to see.  They aren't net worth.  I know lots of people have an investments spread sheet that they keep up and since the numbers are all there, adding a little section to come up with net worth is pretty easy.  Mine has my house, my cars, my guitars and my tools.  What does Net Worth mean?  I don't actually know, nor understand why it's of any value.  How do you put social security or a pension into "investable assets"?  Well, until you're getting payments from these, you don't.  You could certainly use it to figure out your "times" number.  As in "retirement spending" times 25 that's often talked about, related to the Trinity Study.  What I do for that number is take my list of Retirement Spending and subtract social security for me and for my wife.  But for now, it's only a theoretical number because I don't get a pension or social security.  But at age 70, I will and can figure out what the number will be then.  I'm rambling now.  I'm sure plenty of people in this thread have already gotten past that magic 25 number.  Without counting social security, I'm (today) just over 50.  I'll actually retire (I plan to and notified my manager) next May. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on December 24, 2022, 06:12:20 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 24, 2022, 04:55:18 PM

How do you put social security or a pension into "investable assets"?  Well, until you're getting payments from these, you don't.  You could certainly use it to figure out your "times" number.  As in "retirement spending" times 25 that's often talked about, related to the Trinity Study.  What I do for that number is take my list of Retirement Spending and subtract social security for me and for my wife.  But for now, it's only a theoretical number because I don't get a pension or social security.  But at age 70, I will and can figure out what the number will be then.  I'm rambling now.  I'm sure plenty of people in this thread have already gotten past that magic 25 number.  Without counting social security, I'm (today) just over 50.  I'll actually retire (I plan to and notified my manager) next May.

It'd be nice if there was a web calculator that let you put in your investments, spending, future Social Security and pensions, and then ran those through the historical gauntlet and spit out a success rate.

https://firecalc.com

Or one that provides the information visually, including the chance of being alive.

https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 24, 2022, 07:43:05 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 24, 2022, 10:05:54 AM

First I was bummed because we're already past the age of early withdrawal penalties.  Now I'm bummed because I assumed whatever a "LEO" was, it benefitted a larger chunk of mustachians.

Well it’s not “just” law enforcement but also air traffic controllers and firefighters.  There actually is a similar law for state and local first responders. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next few years military also had the same ability. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 24, 2022, 11:31:48 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 24, 2022, 07:43:05 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 24, 2022, 10:05:54 AM

First I was bummed because we're already past the age of early withdrawal penalties.  Now I'm bummed because I assumed whatever a "LEO" was, it benefitted a larger chunk of mustachians.

Well it’s not “just” law enforcement but also air traffic controllers and firefighters.  There actually is a similar law for state and local first responders. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next few years military also had the same ability.

Except I didn't say "just". Perhaps you meant to quote someone else?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 25, 2022, 06:18:13 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 24, 2022, 11:31:48 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 24, 2022, 07:43:05 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 24, 2022, 10:05:54 AM

First I was bummed because we're already past the age of early withdrawal penalties.  Now I'm bummed because I assumed whatever a "LEO" was, it benefitted a larger chunk of mustachians.

Well it’s not “just” law enforcement but also air traffic controllers and firefighters.  There actually is a similar law for state and local first responders. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next few years military also had the same ability.

Except I didn't say "just". Perhaps you meant to quote someone else?

Sorry Dicey, I shouldn’t have put it in quotes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on December 26, 2022, 12:08:11 AM

I went to a play on Saturday.
It was the first time I've been to the theater in three years - I used to go about 20 times a year - thanks, pandemic.
It was bad (the actual play), but it was so good (being back in a theater).

I was able to do the Mustachian thing and I got a 'limited availability' ticket for $35.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 27, 2022, 10:06:27 AM

Hey guys.  I haven't checked in for a while.  Christmas is over and we're at the Florida house for a week.  Just doing a little maintenance and headed to Tampa for a day at Busch Gardens.  It's nice and sunny here.  I may do a couple of bicycle rides as well.  Earlier in the month I did a 4 day mini bicycle tour in Mississippi.  I put in about 200 miles on the Natchez Trace.  I've had some knee pain since then and that's kind of worrisome.  I have about 140 days till I.start my hike of the Appalachian Trail in May.  I plan to hike until the last week of June.  I've booked a week at a Massanutten Virginia condo, just outside Shenandoah National Park.  My wife will come find me somewhere in Virginia.  I'll need a bath, clean clothes and some good food by then.  The indoor water park nearby should do a good job of washing away the hiker filth.  July 1 we'll head back home together and most likely I'll be putting in my retirement paperwork.  By August I hope to fly to Maine and start hiking the AT South.  Our first grandchild is due in March and I'm sure that will dominate our spring activities.  Hope all is well with you all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 27, 2022, 11:23:35 AM

Congrats @Bateaux , on the impending addition to the family!   Baby Bateaux?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 27, 2022, 09:27:42 PM

Quote from: arcturus on December 27, 2022, 11:23:35 AM

Congrats @Bateaux , on the impending addition to the family!   Baby Bateaux?

Baby Bateaux no doubt.  His daddy already has a surface drive mud boat for duck hunting.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 30, 2022, 09:21:20 PM

Did our end-of-the-year financlal status this evening.


Stocks, bonds, cash are down ~$230,000 for the year.
4 rental houses went up      ~$121,000
Home went up                 ~$ 16,000     
Farm land went up            ~$579,000, a combination of land improvement and more accurate valuation.
 
 For a net worth improvement of  ~$486,000 for the year.

This was an expensive year.   We gave a Ukrainian refugee artist a place to live and supplies to work with and one of our two farms produced no income this year.  Next year will be the same, after that, we'll be making money again on our newly leveled (and thus improved) farmland.

Expenses of setting up our guest to work should be way down next year as they'll have all the tools they need.

Life is good.

Having fun making art and writing stories.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 31, 2022, 03:33:58 AM

Quote from: couponvan on December 02, 2022, 03:20:11 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on December 02, 2022, 07:19:51 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on November 30, 2022, 09:25:16 AM

The challenge of FIRE with kids is something I don't think is talked about enough on the forum. Many have this "just say no" attitude. DH and I are completely unwilling to not give education and experiences to our kids so that we can not work. I'm not saying that approach is wrong, it's just one we cannot take.
.
Our crazy expenses-
Sports (including private swing coach for golf and club soccer (no travel though)
elementary and pending HS tuition (HS is $15k elementary is $4k)
car insurance for future driver (have you all seen what they charge to add boys to your car insurance?? It's nuts. Or so I hear. We've got a few years still)
He'll need a car- will give him my 12 YO CRV to start. There is no bussing to HS in our area.
And finally family trips. We can blow $8k on a family vacation without thinking about it.

Health insurance if we quit would be a huge blow to our budget. I think we could do it, but it would pinch other areas.

I don't regret any of it. NONE. DH is happy to continue to work to pay for it. And I can stay home and be an Uber for the kids and friends.

Once they go to college they can tap their 529s which are not included in our NW. And they can work to pay living expenses. Or they can live at home. Or they can go to free college at University DH works at. So it's four more years and then one kid should get cheaper and then four more years for the other.

I just feel like there is always the sentiment on the forum that you shouldn't let kids keep you from FIRE and I really don't know how you don't. It's expensive. But short lived really.
just my $.02.

Your view/experience is pretty consistent with ours.  It's really just math, if you spend more you need more.   We didn't feel it was fair to give up our high paying jobs and tell our three kids your on your own for college so we set aside enough thatbthey each could go to most, all except the most expensive, state schools with out of state tuition.  If they end up going in state or get scholarships/aid then win for us.   Like you we don't count I in our NW.   

And you're not kidding about travel....family of five it adds up real quick just starting with 5 airfares, large enough rental to handle 5 plus luggage, and a place to stay that is big enough (thank goodness for AirBNB)....all that is a small fortune and before you do anything fun when your there.  Sure, we have done some car travel and camping trips and crammed into a hotel room for a few nights but we want to do more than that and want to travel a bit more further with the kids.   

I recently went back to work partly bc I was a bit bored and partly to pad the stash for more travel costs (probably the one are I under budgeted) and maybe a little buffer for inflation/turbulent times and unknown college costs (even if we already stashed a ton away).  But really I probably don't need to be working for more money as we have buffers such as $$$$ kids activities thatvwill be going away in the next few years and bigger picture all the kid related costs $$$$$ that will go away when they leave the nest in general.   

But yeah, it was import ant to us and I don't regret it.   Maybe my perspective would be different if I was a lower earner and really had to choose us vs them....fortunately I didn't have to.

This might be me too come February/March (if I get my act in gear doing CPE to renew my CPA license in active status).  We have the assets at middle of this race, but the expenses of "and beyond" for at least the next 4-5 years.  Three years off and a waver between bored and crabby.  No one else can take the vacations I want to take because they are working full time.  However, the "and beyond" part of the expenses lies solidly on my husband's side of the equation.  Their college expenses are budgeted and saved for, but fancier travel is not in there.  I want to budget for at least 15 years of expensive travel, and likely expensive travel to include my children and their significant others during their "poorer" years.  Yes, I don't have to, but I might like to.  If I'm working, I'm not bored at home - just complaining about work! LOL.

You wrote exactly what I have been thinking!!  Totally in same position

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 31, 2022, 07:06:17 AM

2022 was a rough year for me -- spending this year was way too high and on the earlier thread, I can attest to the difficulty I would have with a FIRE with children dependents scenario.  There are enough variables in you and your significant other's situation (health, expenses, home repairs, maintenance, etc.), but when you throw kids into the mix, the number of variables explode.   Will they go to college?  Will they stay at the same college or will they transfer?  Will they enjoy their major or need to change?  The list goes on an on.  And I will speak from personal experience that I thought I was sufficiently (not excessively) funded in the 529 to handle 3 kids through college.  And in 2022 alone, I probably spent $50,000 out of pocket (I'd prefer not to know the exact number, so am not checking) for one who ended up in a field where you need a graduate degree (yes, another variable) and it was either this or let them graduate with over $100K in student loans, which, I struggle to do.

So my 2022 recap: terrible investment performance, too much spending.   Leaves me with YE liquid / invested net worth of $2.02M and if I include home equity I'm estimating more like $2.51M.   Liquid NW down about 13% from last year. 

And back to the other topic, I would be careful about assuming you are overfunded in the 529.....many things can happen....hell, we have a situation where based on our child getting closed out of one class, they will need to take an extra semester!   That can be $25-35K easily!   And who knows, it sounds like in the future you may be able to roll excess 529 funds into a Roth, so I'd fund it up!!  Doesn't really impact me anymore, since my remaining 529 balance is not going to be enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 31, 2022, 08:21:38 AM

Thanks for the updates folks.  It was a welcome gift from Congress that 529's are becoming more flexible and also that RMD's will be pushed out until I'm 75.  I got really lucky with the 529 that investment returns were amazing during the funding, then I switched to preservation in 2021 since DS started last fall.  Better yet, he has opted for a much more affordable option than what we had planned on (Texas State Technical College), but still not sure we are home free.  DD will be applying in 2 years and DS might change his mind.  Surprisingly, many of his cohorts have taken this year off entirely, choosing to stay at home and work while they figure life out.  So yeah, adding children to the FIRE planning mix can make the outcome swing wildly.  We were on the lucky side where our 529 is either fully or possibly over-funded, but just as easily could have been $100k short.  And it's still hard to know if we are doing the right thing by DS.  We pushed for him to go the traditional route, but it's silly to force them in to something expensive that they don't want.  For our daughter, it'll likely be the opposite, she'll want to spend top dollar and we'll have to give her a reality check about what makes sense...  We have friends that are paying full freight private elite college money for degrees like journalism, environmental science, etc., so to each their own, but we are not going to write a blank check, even if there are funds in the 529.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 31, 2022, 08:54:53 AM

Looking at our liquid assets (tax deferred and taxable), our net worth decreased from $6.4M to 5.8M. But for the most part I did not spend much time thinking about money, except once a month when I update my spreadsheet. We still have more than when I retired in 2020 and I felt that that was enough.

My mom unexpectedly passed away early in 2022 from a heart attack which came as a real shock for us as she seemed to be in fine health. Thankfully she did not linger like my dad who died a couple of years ago from the effects of Alzheimers'. It took a few months of work to sort out the assets. I will be receiving a fairly large amount in early 2023 which is my share of my parents estate - I had not counted on this money in my planning.

My wife is still happy at work and will probably continue at least until the end of 2023 so we won't be dipping into our savings for a bit. We already have more than enough in tax deferred accounts so I reduced her 401K contributions and instead increased the amount of our automated monthly taxable investments. Next year will be our 30th anniversary of index fund investing!

Older daughter is self-sufficient and gets a fabulous stipend as a grad student (way more than I ever did in grad school). Younger daughter is doing well in college and as @arcturus says, college always costs more than you expect. My daughter actually saved some money by moving to a relatively expensive off-campus apartment. Cooking for herself turned out to be much cheaper than the college meal plan - she is frugal and a good cook. Her college is sufficiently far away that she has to fly there and air fares have gone up a lot. She was thrilled to get half a dozen internship offers for next summer - looks like we are barely going to see her in 2023!

I spent about $3k on my hobbies this year and got a huge amount of enjoyment out of it. Didn't get to travel much as I had to spend a lot of time dealing with my parent's estate but hope to travel a bit more in 2023. We did manage to get one fun hiking vacation in the northeast.

Enjoying retirement as much as anyone can hope to :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on January 01, 2023, 11:29:20 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 31, 2022, 08:21:38 AM

Thanks for the updates folks.  It was a welcome gift from Congress that 529's are becoming more flexible and also that RMD's will be pushed out until I'm 75.  I got really lucky with the 529 that investment returns were amazing during the funding, then I switched to preservation in 2021 since DS started last fall.  Better yet, he has opted for a much more affordable option than what we had planned on (Texas State Technical College), but still not sure we are home free.  DD will be applying in 2 years and DS might change his mind.  Surprisingly, many of his cohorts have taken this year off entirely, choosing to stay at home and work while they figure life out.  So yeah, adding children to the FIRE planning mix can make the outcome swing wildly.  We were on the lucky side where our 529 is either fully or possibly over-funded, but just as easily could have been $100k short.  And it's still hard to know if we are doing the right thing by DS.  We pushed for him to go the traditional route, but it's silly to force them in to something expensive that they don't want.  For our daughter, it'll likely be the opposite, she'll want to spend top dollar and we'll have to give her a reality check about what makes sense...  We have friends that are paying full freight private elite college money for degrees like journalism, environmental science, etc., so to each their own, but we are not going to write a blank check, even if there are funds in the 529.

I think technical schools are potentially the best ROI option for many.   I look at some occupations that basically require a master's degree and yet may pay only $60-75K upon graduation.  You can easily drop $250-300K in tuition & related expenses landing a job in some of these professions.  That education is 4-5x starting salary.   I would like to see how that compares to a technical school degree.   And you might think  ...  yes, but over the course of a career, the former will far out-earn the latter.  But I am not sure that is the case, some of these professions that require the advanced degrees do not necessarily have salaries that increase dramatically as you gain more experience. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 01, 2023, 11:46:08 AM

Quote from: arcturus on January 01, 2023, 11:29:20 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 31, 2022, 08:21:38 AM

Thanks for the updates folks.  It was a welcome gift from Congress that 529's are becoming more flexible and also that RMD's will be pushed out until I'm 75.  I got really lucky with the 529 that investment returns were amazing during the funding, then I switched to preservation in 2021 since DS started last fall.  Better yet, he has opted for a much more affordable option than what we had planned on (Texas State Technical College), but still not sure we are home free.  DD will be applying in 2 years and DS might change his mind.  Surprisingly, many of his cohorts have taken this year off entirely, choosing to stay at home and work while they figure life out.  So yeah, adding children to the FIRE planning mix can make the outcome swing wildly.  We were on the lucky side where our 529 is either fully or possibly over-funded, but just as easily could have been $100k short.  And it's still hard to know if we are doing the right thing by DS.  We pushed for him to go the traditional route, but it's silly to force them in to something expensive that they don't want.  For our daughter, it'll likely be the opposite, she'll want to spend top dollar and we'll have to give her a reality check about what makes sense...  We have friends that are paying full freight private elite college money for degrees like journalism, environmental science, etc., so to each their own, but we are not going to write a blank check, even if there are funds in the 529.

I think technical schools are potentially the best ROI option for many.   I look at some occupations that basically require a master's degree and yet may pay only $60-75K upon graduation.  You can easily drop $250-300K in tuition & related expenses landing a job in some of these professions.  That education is 4-5x starting salary.   I would like to see how that compares to a technical school degree.   And you might think  ...  yes, but over the course of a career, the former will far out-earn the latter.  But I am not sure that is the case, some of these professions that require the advanced degrees do not necessarily have salaries that increase dramatically as you gain more experience.

I'm happy to talk money with my nephews. The oldest it barely 30. One went to trade school (at a local Junior College) to become a General Contractor. The other apprenticed himself to someone with a Pool Maintenance and Repair Service*, in a city ten hours from home, for a couple of years vs. going to college. Eventually, he moved home and started his own business. We chatted at Christmas. They each own their own bought-and-fixed-up-themselves homes and they earn more than I ever did in my career. Way more. They're also good savers.

*There's good money in pool repairs and inspections. The people who do this vs. just weekly cleaning and chemicals tend to earn a lot more money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on January 02, 2023, 04:59:57 AM

@Dicey , you make another great point -- is that many times the trade/technical professions lend themselves better (IMO) to going into business for yourself vs more formal educations.  Not to mention that not having thousands and thousands of $ of college debt hanging over your head where you have to make those payments!   

I went the other way with my kids and all 3 went through (or are in the process of going through) formal college programs, I'm just saying that, if given the opportunity for a *do over* I would have a conversation with each about technical school + $50,000 set aside as seed money for them to get started in their own profession of choice (when I deemed they were ready for such a responsibility).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 03, 2023, 11:51:31 AM

Quote from: arcturus on January 02, 2023, 04:59:57 AM

@Dicey , you make another great point -- is that many times the trade/technical professions lend themselves better (IMO) to going into business for yourself vs more formal educations.  Not to mention that not having thousands and thousands of $ of college debt hanging over your head where you have to make those payments!   

I went the other way with my kids and all 3 went through (or are in the process of going through) formal college programs, I'm just saying that, if given the opportunity for a *do over* I would have a conversation with each about technical school + $50,000 set aside as seed money for them to get started in their own profession of choice (when I deemed they were ready for such a responsibility).

My mom came from a small town.  On several occasions she pointed out the that she went to high school with the richest man in the town.  The man never finished high school.  He owned the lumber yard in the town.

This Capitalism thing we got going s a mixed bag.  It gives the rich many more opportunities than most of us and sometimes keeps us down, but it also allows hard working honest business people to succeed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on January 04, 2023, 08:49:53 PM

I went to the eye doctor for my annual check-up today. Over the past ten years or so this has involved assessing whether I need bifocals to deciding whether I need stronger bifocals.  There's also a weird pigment patch in my eye that we've been monitoring, but it's staying pretty boring (meaning no changes).  Today, I was half joking, half lamenting that my birth year subtracted from the current year yields a fairly significant milestone birthday coming up later this year.  That said, I expected to have the exam, order my year's supply of contacts, and then carefully drive home in the cloudy weather with my eyes dilated and a little bedazzled by headlights and stoplights.

The result was different.

After dilating and imaging my retinas, the optometrist came in and told me that my retina is lumpy.  That's a kind way of saying it's detached.  At first we were talking about my left eye.  Then they double-checked my right eye, and found something similar.  It's way out of my field of view, so not a vision problem right now, but holy shit, I have detached retinas.  And this is something that happens because you have diabetes, or you're old.  I don't have diabetes.  I'm kind of freaking out here.

I'm scheduled first thing tomorrow for a visit to a specialist, and treatment could include laser beams or freezing my eye or possibly more invasive stuff.  Anyway, it makes me seriously think about whether the stash is enough and should I hang it up now.  What's the point of getting to "Beyond!" if I can't see the world to enjoy it?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 05, 2023, 12:39:47 AM

I think anything that gets a person to FIRE is a good thing,  but holy shit, that is scary! I hope the visit with the specialist gives you solid answers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 05, 2023, 08:20:54 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on January 04, 2023, 08:49:53 PM

...
I'm scheduled first thing tomorrow for a visit to a specialist, and treatment could include laser beams or freezing my eye or possibly more invasive stuff.  Anyway, it makes me seriously think about whether the stash is enough and should I hang it up now.  What's the point of getting to "Beyond!" if I can't see the world to enjoy it?

Sorry to hear this Taran and hope the specialists are able to keep or improve your quality of life quickly.  This brings up a thing I wonder about FIRE though, isn't it worse to ER and have to figure out medical insurance (especially when it comes to specialists and stuff like dental coverage) on our own?  I guess I'm lucky to have a ~$35k family plan paid for by my company that I probably wouldn't buy for myself, but also don't want to get hit by massive medical bills in the early years of ER.  How much to people budget for healthcare (insurance premiums and actual expenses)?? 

DD went to the emergency room once last year and I'm very thankful to have Aetna negotiate the bills and covering most of the cost.  Can't imagine what I'd be going through had I 'cheaped out' on a bronze plan, but also don't know what a silver or gold plan in Texas would be covering.

I'll be much more relaxed when the kids are on their own health insurance, but that won't be for several years still...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on January 05, 2023, 09:31:56 AM

If you have bad myopia you are at higher risk of retinal issues.

My vision was horrendous -- started wearing glasses at five, hard contact lenses at 10, and had corneas (and surgery for them) in my 40s.  I had a full blown retinal detachment last year.  Luckily I already had a great retinal specialist and am fully recovered after the surgery.  I am now back to seeing him once a year.  Be sure you know the signs of serious retinal issues.   I had increased floaters before the more serious curtaining started -- might have avoided an actual tear if I had gone in when I saw the floaters in the morning.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on January 05, 2023, 11:50:22 AM

Fortunately I have zero symptoms. It was caught in a routine exam, and it’s in my far outer lower corners of my eyes, which means upper center peripheral vision. I can’t notice any vision effect even if I look for it. I’m far-sighted, not near-sighted (myopic), and not diabetic, so no reason to suspect this. I’m in the exam now (lots of waiting) so I may be getting lasered in just a few minutes.

Fortunately DW’s insurance is solid. We switched to her’s last year.

It really makes me think about what’s important. Is more money really necessary? We probably have enough now. DW’s job is solid. I could always work later. We might have some inheritances in the future. Social security is out there in 15-20 years. Time for a more solid plan on all of that. But the math on 10-15 more years of work to have $15 - $20 million in the bank seems pretty darn stupid at this point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on January 05, 2023, 12:05:03 PM

Quote from: arcturus on January 01, 2023, 11:29:20 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 31, 2022, 08:21:38 AM

Thanks for the updates folks.  It was a welcome gift from Congress that 529's are becoming more flexible and also that RMD's will be pushed out until I'm 75.  I got really lucky with the 529 that investment returns were amazing during the funding, then I switched to preservation in 2021 since DS started last fall.  Better yet, he has opted for a much more affordable option than what we had planned on (Texas State Technical College), but still not sure we are home free.  DD will be applying in 2 years and DS might change his mind.  Surprisingly, many of his cohorts have taken this year off entirely, choosing to stay at home and work while they figure life out.  So yeah, adding children to the FIRE planning mix can make the outcome swing wildly.  We were on the lucky side where our 529 is either fully or possibly over-funded, but just as easily could have been $100k short.  And it's still hard to know if we are doing the right thing by DS.  We pushed for him to go the traditional route, but it's silly to force them in to something expensive that they don't want.  For our daughter, it'll likely be the opposite, she'll want to spend top dollar and we'll have to give her a reality check about what makes sense...  We have friends that are paying full freight private elite college money for degrees like journalism, environmental science, etc., so to each their own, but we are not going to write a blank check, even if there are funds in the 529.

I think technical schools are potentially the best ROI option for many.   I look at some occupations that basically require a master's degree and yet may pay only $60-75K upon graduation.  You can easily drop $250-300K in tuition & related expenses landing a job in some of these professions.  That education is 4-5x starting salary.   I would like to see how that compares to a technical school degree.   And you might think  ...  yes, but over the course of a career, the former will far out-earn the latter.  But I am not sure that is the case, some of these professions that require the advanced degrees do not necessarily have salaries that increase dramatically as you gain more experience.

This is a really good point.  We found out about this because son #2 crashed and burned after one year of community college.  Covid was in full force so lots of options were gone.  I found a technical school that offered an 8 month, 4 day a week at 5 hours a night welding program.  Son went and completed this.  Total cost for the school was like $16k.  The 2 trades in shortest supply are truck driver and welder and since my son has had numerous accidents and speeding tickets, that wasn't going to happen.  This was a zero cost to me after paying my other son's private college costs at about $300k till his Bachelors degree was complete.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on January 05, 2023, 04:32:25 PM

Sorry to hear this @Taran Wanderer .  I have no experience with this, but certainly wishing you all the best as you deal with this.   I share similar thoughts to you, but for different reasons.  In my case, I'm seeing others age around me and starting to wonder if having a **plan** that extends till age 90+ really is necessary.   Or is it over-planning and *if* and *when* you get there, you'll figure it out.   Anyways, most importantly, wishing you the very best.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on January 05, 2023, 04:34:48 PM

Amen @Car Jack .....and your welder son will probably do very well in life and perhaps have a lower stress career that provides more balance, etc., as well as a chance to go into business for himself. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 05, 2023, 08:48:54 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on January 04, 2023, 08:49:53 PM

I went to the eye doctor for my annual check-up today. Over the past ten years or so this has involved assessing whether I need bifocals to deciding whether I need stronger bifocals.  There's also a weird pigment patch in my eye that we've been monitoring, but it's staying pretty boring (meaning no changes).  Today, I was half joking, half lamenting that my birth year subtracted from the current year yields a fairly significant milestone birthday coming up later this year.  That said, I expected to have the exam, order my year's supply of contacts, and then carefully drive home in the cloudy weather with my eyes dilated and a little bedazzled by headlights and stoplights.

The result was different.

After dilating and imaging my retinas, the optometrist came in and told me that my retina is lumpy.  That's a kind way of saying it's detached.  At first we were talking about my left eye.  Then they double-checked my right eye, and found something similar.  It's way out of my field of view, so not a vision problem right now, but holy shit, I have detached retinas.  And this is something that happens because you have diabetes, or you're old.  I don't have diabetes.  I'm kind of freaking out here.

I'm scheduled first thing tomorrow for a visit to a specialist, and treatment could include laser beams or freezing my eye or possibly more invasive stuff.  Anyway, it makes me seriously think about whether the stash is enough and should I hang it up now.  What's the point of getting to "Beyond!" if I can't see the world to enjoy it?

Sorry to hear about your retina problems. If it’s any consolation, my dad had laser surgery to reattach his retina about 25 years ago and it went smoothly with good results, and I’m sure the success rate is much higher now than back then.

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 05, 2023, 08:20:54 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on January 04, 2023, 08:49:53 PM

...
I'm scheduled first thing tomorrow for a visit to a specialist, and treatment could include laser beams or freezing my eye or possibly more invasive stuff.  Anyway, it makes me seriously think about whether the stash is enough and should I hang it up now.  What's the point of getting to "Beyond!" if I can't see the world to enjoy it?

Sorry to hear this Taran and hope the specialists are able to keep or improve your quality of life quickly.  This brings up a thing I wonder about FIRE though, isn't it worse to ER and have to figure out medical insurance (especially when it comes to specialists and stuff like dental coverage) on our own?  I guess I'm lucky to have a ~$35k family plan paid for by my company that I probably wouldn't buy for myself, but also don't want to get hit by massive medical bills in the early years of ER.  How much to people budget for healthcare (insurance premiums and actual expenses)?? 

DD went to the emergency room once last year and I'm very thankful to have Aetna negotiate the bills and covering most of the cost.  Can't imagine what I'd be going through had I 'cheaped out' on a bronze plan, but also don't know what a silver or gold plan in Texas would be covering.

I'll be much more relaxed when the kids are on their own health insurance, but that won't be for several years still...

I’ve been FIREd since ‘00 and have been on ACA coverage (“Obamacare”) since it became available. It’s not cheap, but the coverage is good - I have access to the best doctors and my costs have a cap I can pay if necessary. Back in 2020, for example, I needed foot surgery and cardioversion, and both were covered completely after meeting my deductible.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on January 06, 2023, 11:02:57 PM

I made it out of the retina specialist’s with my eyes dilated for the next three days and sore eyeballs from her poking and prodding. Did you know that the retina extends about 270 degrees around your eyeball, basically all the way to your iris?  Do you also know that if your pupils are dilated enough, and if your eyeball is pushed inward hard enough, it is possible to see the edge of the iris through the pupil? Well, I not only now know that, I also got to experience it. Even with numbing drops, it was unpleasant.

For all that, the visit still ended with uncertainty. I probably do not have detaching retinas. Instead, the very edges of my retinas are kind of delaminating and not working anymore.  It doesn’t affect my vision because my nose and eyebrows block that area of vision anyway.

Why has this happened?  Don’t know. Could be trauma, but I have no history of that. Could be hereditary. Could be age.

When did it happen?  Don’t know. Could be something that happened. Could be something that was there since birth. (Could be Covid? That’s my question, not the doc’s.)

Will it get worse?  Don’t know. Come back in a month. If it looks the same, checking it will be part of my annual check up. If it’s worse, laser diagnosis and/or stitching is next.  @jeroly , thanks for the note about your dad - it’s great to hear of his results, especially for so long. Helps reduce anxiety about it.

Now that I’m pretty sure I’m not going blind this week, I’m taking DS skiing tomorrow, and I went ahead and bought the bike I’ve been mulling over for 2 or 3 years.  And DW will take the trip with her mom and aunt later this spring. And we’ll take the other trips we’re planning. And we’ll coach the kids’ teams and do the other fun things in life because we only get one shot at this.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on January 07, 2023, 11:47:15 AM

I don’t recommend skiing with dilated eyes! Maybe you mean you will be the lodge bunny for DS ski outing? You may get a headache with the dilation. My sons have to stay dilated during iritis flares, and it’s no fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on January 07, 2023, 11:08:08 PM

Yeah that would be bad, especially with a bright sunny day. Fortunately it wore off. It was also cloudy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 11, 2023, 01:00:47 PM

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 11, 2023, 01:45:40 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 11, 2023, 01:00:47 PM

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!

Or we should be telecommuting from Hawaii!  Have to think outside the box 😎

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2023, 02:55:30 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 11, 2023, 01:00:47 PM

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lol, "...according to Sam Dogen" (aka Financial Samurai) ... yeah, I'm not particularly interested in Sam's take on this subject.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 11, 2023, 03:21:10 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 11, 2023, 01:00:47 PM

...states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html...

I think the author of this piece is a clickbait whore with his whiny head up his ass.

And I destroyed the full link in the quote above so I don't link to his trash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on January 11, 2023, 04:24:55 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 11, 2023, 03:21:10 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 11, 2023, 01:00:47 PM

...states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html...

I think the author of this piece is a clickbait whore with his whiny head up his ass.

And I destroyed the full link in the quote above so I don't link to his trash.

Thing is I didn’t directly link to this article. This was posted on a more reputable site advertised by Linked In, and when you click it it takes you the link I shared. So they are finding ways to guise the click bait.

I was more entertained than put off in this case. But yes the second half of the article turns into basic run of the mill “advise”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 12, 2023, 02:44:35 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 11, 2023, 03:21:10 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 11, 2023, 01:00:47 PM

...states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html...

I think the author of this piece is a clickbait whore with his whiny head up his ass.

And I destroyed the full link in the quote above so I don't link to his trash.

Out of curiosity I went directly to his own website and wow are you right. Every article he has written seem to be burning with resentment and anger.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on January 12, 2023, 05:23:34 AM

Sorry about your eyes @Taran Wanderer but glad that your retinas seem to be largely staying put for now.

FWIW as one other data point the only person I know with detached retinas had a very sudden detachment on a tube train in London about 15 years ago - he suddenly couldn't see in one eye.  Luckily he went straight to Moorfields and they reattached and he kept his vision and it's still good 15 years later (well, as good as it was before - he's always had strong prescription glasses).  So reattachments can work and hold even when the detachment was quite sudden/complete if you're quick enough.  Sounds like hopefully you are in a much more gradual category, if at all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 12, 2023, 10:16:43 AM

On a similar note.  As I’m just waiting for my pension eligibility day, I’m getting sick of people at work who can’t afford to retire.

So this morning I’ve been entertaining myself with running numbers if I stayed until mandatory retirement (working an additional 10 years).  With just saving at a current maximum eligibility (TSP, TSP match, HSA, IRA), I’d have a liquid net worth of $5.3 million which at 4% would cash flow to me more than I currently make.

ETA:  looking at the CNBC article, I left the 10h cheapest state for the 3rd most expensive.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Money Badger on January 12, 2023, 07:43:35 PM

@Formerly,   Elvis's daughter bit it at 54... This alone is just as good advice as "Sam's" ;-)

FIRE today.  Move to LCOL.  Be free and just be.   Screw the $5M.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 12, 2023, 10:21:54 PM

Quote from: Money Badger on January 12, 2023, 07:43:35 PM

@Formerly,   Elvis's daughter bit it at 54... This alone is just as good advice as "Sam's" ;-)

FIRE today.  Move to LCOL.  Be free and just be.   Screw the $5M.

Oh I’m not staying the extra 10 years that would get me to $5million, I’m staying less than 3 and am gone at 47.  I just ran the numbers for “fun”.  Being able to keep Federal Employees Health Benefits for life is keeping me there until I get my minimum pension eligible time in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on January 17, 2023, 09:39:55 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on January 12, 2023, 10:21:54 PM

Quote from: Money Badger on January 12, 2023, 07:43:35 PM

@Formerly,   Elvis's daughter bit it at 54... This alone is just as good advice as "Sam's" ;-)

FIRE today.  Move to LCOL.  Be free and just be.   Screw the $5M.

I’m staying less than 3 and am gone at 47.

this has been my goal since corp. year 1 and funny enough I'm about 3 years away from this reality too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 17, 2023, 11:47:03 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on January 12, 2023, 10:16:43 AM

On a similar note.  As I’m just waiting for my pension eligibility day, I’m getting sick of people at work who can’t afford to retire.
...

Came across this gem this morning - https://www.marketwatch.com/picks/it-feels-like-way-too-much-to-lose-we-had-550k-invested-and-told-our-adviser-we-wanted-a-conservative-approach-since-then-weve-lost-88k-i-know-the-market-is-bad-but-should-we-fire-him-01673635039?siteid=yhoof2

Quote

Question: Two years ago my husband took an early retirement when offered by his company.  At that time we had a 401(k) with about $550,000 that we gave to a big financial services firm rep to handle. Since then we’ve lost $88,000 due to poor market conditions and decisions. We expressed our need for a conservative approach. A large portion is tied up in bonds and that amount feels like way too much to lose!

What’s worse, the agent keeps telling us that our $4,750 per month draw is too much. Do we change agents within the company?  Jump ship and transfer everything to another company?  Do we have to live on less than we want to just to make up for the loss?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 17, 2023, 09:39:22 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 17, 2023, 11:47:03 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on January 12, 2023, 10:16:43 AM

On a similar note.  As I’m just waiting for my pension eligibility day, I’m getting sick of people at work who can’t afford to retire.
...

Came across this gem this morning - https://www.marketwatch.com/picks/it-feels-like-way-too-much-to-lose-we-had-550k-invested-and-told-our-adviser-we-wanted-a-conservative-approach-since-then-weve-lost-88k-i-know-the-market-is-bad-but-should-we-fire-him-01673635039?siteid=yhoof2

Quote

Question: Two years ago my husband took an early retirement when offered by his company.  At that time we had a 401(k) with about $550,000 that we gave to a big financial services firm rep to handle. Since then we’ve lost $88,000 due to poor market conditions and decisions. We expressed our need for a conservative approach. A large portion is tied up in bonds and that amount feels like way too much to lose!

What’s worse, the agent keeps telling us that our $4,750 per month draw is too much. Do we change agents within the company?  Jump ship and transfer everything to another company?  Do we have to live on less than we want to just to make up for the loss?

So a 10% withdrawal rate and they think the investments are the problem.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on January 17, 2023, 10:58:33 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on January 17, 2023, 09:39:22 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 17, 2023, 11:47:03 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on January 12, 2023, 10:16:43 AM

On a similar note.  As I’m just waiting for my pension eligibility day, I’m getting sick of people at work who can’t afford to retire.
...

Came across this gem this morning - https://www.marketwatch.com/picks/it-feels-like-way-too-much-to-lose-we-had-550k-invested-and-told-our-adviser-we-wanted-a-conservative-approach-since-then-weve-lost-88k-i-know-the-market-is-bad-but-should-we-fire-him-01673635039?siteid=yhoof2

Quote

Question: Two years ago my husband took an early retirement when offered by his company.  At that time we had a 401(k) with about $550,000 that we gave to a big financial services firm rep to handle. Since then we’ve lost $88,000 due to poor market conditions and decisions. We expressed our need for a conservative approach. A large portion is tied up in bonds and that amount feels like way too much to lose!

What’s worse, the agent keeps telling us that our $4,750 per month draw is too much. Do we change agents within the company?  Jump ship and transfer everything to another company?  Do we have to live on less than we want to just to make up for the loss?

So a 10% withdrawal rate and they think the investments are the problem.

Reduction in account value:  $550,000 - $88,000 = $462,000

Spent:  $550,000 - ($4,750 * 12) = $493,000

Loss due to market:  $493,000 - $462,000 = $31,000

% loss due to market:  $31,000 / $493,000 = (6.29%)

When interest rates rise, bond values fall.  That doesn't feel like that much of a loss given how much interest rates have risen...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 24, 2023, 09:14:07 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 11, 2023, 01:00:47 PM

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!

With my motivation at work lately, I probably won't be working much longer!  Haha....Definitely in "why am I doing this still" mode...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 24, 2023, 11:46:58 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 24, 2023, 09:14:07 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 11, 2023, 01:00:47 PM

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!

With my motivation at work lately, I probably won't be working much longer!  Haha....Definitely in "why am I doing this still" mode...

Winding down in my last year.  Also trying to get some crap fixed for the new guys that are going to be replacing me and probably another coworker.  Knowing the end is close makes it so easy to go in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 25, 2023, 07:11:43 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 24, 2023, 11:46:58 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 24, 2023, 09:14:07 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 11, 2023, 01:00:47 PM

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!

With my motivation at work lately, I probably won't be working much longer!  Haha....Definitely in "why am I doing this still" mode...

Winding down in my last year.  Also trying to get some crap fixed for the new guys that are going to be replacing me and probably another coworker.  Knowing the end is close makes it so easy to go in.

It's been such a long time coming. Can't wait for you to pull the trigger, @Bateaux!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on January 27, 2023, 09:43:14 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 24, 2023, 11:46:58 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 24, 2023, 09:14:07 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 11, 2023, 01:00:47 PM

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!

With my motivation at work lately, I probably won't be working much longer!  Haha....Definitely in "why am I doing this still" mode...

Winding down in my last year.  Also trying to get some crap fixed for the new guys that are going to be replacing me and probably another coworker.  Knowing the end is close makes it so easy to go in.

I felt that too.  Once I realized I no longer had to work, it was like a load lifted.  Stuff doesn't bother you so much when you can walk away.  You've planned well.  I think you may be one of those guys that does people more good after you retire than when you were working.  Your entries here show you are that kind of guy that helps neighbors and such.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 30, 2023, 12:17:47 PM

Quote from: pecunia on January 27, 2023, 09:43:14 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 24, 2023, 11:46:58 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 24, 2023, 09:14:07 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on January 11, 2023, 01:00:47 PM

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!

With my motivation at work lately, I probably won't be working much longer!  Haha....Definitely in "why am I doing this still" mode...

Winding down in my last year.  Also trying to get some crap fixed for the new guys that are going to be replacing me and probably another coworker.  Knowing the end is close makes it so easy to go in.

I felt that too.  Once I realized I no longer had to work, it was like a load lifted.  Stuff doesn't bother you so much when you can walk away.  You've planned well.  I think you may be one of those guys that does people more good after you retire than when you were working.  Your entries here show you are that kind of guy that helps neighbors and such.

Yep...it definitely helps with the stress levels at work when you have some 'FU' money...haha.  However, it doesn't help with the work motivation levels.  I'd like to have a couple more years at the company...but it is getting tougher and tougher.  The pandemic also had a lot to do with it...I realized that I'm *much happier* not going into work.  The company touts what a great "culture" they have but...no...they have been treating employees poorly for decades.

 

 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on January 30, 2023, 03:18:36 PM

I was running into this. Sometimes the bad treatment is bad management. Other times it’s just plain difficult l, stressful, high-pressure work, and even of the leadership is pretty good, the underlying work is just plain hard. I was in that sort of situation, and I finally just checked out. It’s been a really nice change.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on February 01, 2023, 01:38:15 PM

NW is back up over $3m for the first time in a year. Thanks FED.

Meanwhile I continue to stress over my job like I have no money saved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on February 01, 2023, 08:44:13 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on February 01, 2023, 01:38:15 PM

Meanwhile I continue to stress over my job like I have no money saved.

You are not alone…I’m in the same boat.

However, I’ve stopped biting my lip and work and funny enough, people seem to like my brutal honesty.  It’s a taste of FU money…I’ve taken on the attitude “fire me if you don’t like it”; seems to have dropped my stress level a little.

I was hoping for the sale to continue a little longer…but seeing the market climb makes me want to ditch the high stress job.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 06, 2023, 02:01:13 PM

Had my follow up eye appointment today. More poking and prodding. Things are stable. I’m not going blind… yet.

As the markets have been going through their gyrations, it’s been interesting to watch the NW. It’s climbing through $3.6M again. If this year is “typical” - whatever that is anymore - between appreciation and savings it will rise above $4M this year. Does that mean I need to leave this thread?

I also did a first run at 2022 taxes. Looks like I need to write a big check. I adjusted my federal withholding, but not state, and that is coming back to bite me. But that’s really driven by the new job partnership. Turns out if you make money, you have to pay taxes on it. There could be worse problems.

It all has me thinking philosophically about work. For so long, I worked for money, and it was a lot of effort to save and invest and wait and watch it grow. Now, money seems to flow in so easily, and I don’t need it so much, so I need to figure out what the intrinsic motivation is for what I’m doing, whether it’s work or play. No answers yet, and I’m not sure I even know the questions. Anyone have any deep thoughts about how you’ve approached this ’dilemma’?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on February 06, 2023, 06:04:57 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 06, 2023, 02:01:13 PM

Had my follow up eye appointment today. More poking and prodding. Things are stable. I’m not going blind… yet.

Anyone have any deep thoughts about how you’ve approached this ’dilemma’?

Good about the eyes.

Deep thoughts? Not from me, but I am in a similar situation, trying to to figure out exactly what to do now that we are here. Here being past the need to really save, but still doing it.

There are still things to do at work, but even if they never get done, the big wheel will roll along. And if I get them done, not much different. I get to play with some good tools. I am remote so no chance contact with fools.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 07, 2023, 02:49:00 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 06, 2023, 02:01:13 PM

Had my follow up eye appointment today. More poking and prodding. Things are stable. I’m not going blind… yet.

As the markets have been going through their gyrations, it’s been interesting to watch the NW. It’s climbing through $3.6M again. If this year is “typical” - whatever that is anymore - between appreciation and savings it will rise above $4M this year. Does that mean I need to leave this thread?

I also did a first run at 2022 taxes. Looks like I need to write a big check. I adjusted my federal withholding, but not state, and that is coming back to bite me. But that’s really driven by the new job partnership. Turns out if you make money, you have to pay taxes on it. There could be worse problems.

It all has me thinking philosophically about work. For so long, I worked for money, and it was a lot of effort to save and invest and wait and watch it grow. Now, money seems to flow in so easily, and I don’t need it so much, so I need to figure out what the intrinsic motivation is for what I’m doing, whether it’s work or play. No answers yet, and I’m not sure I even know the questions. Anyone have any deep thoughts about how you’ve approached this ’dilemma’?

I'm not working any more.  Once in a while the thought crosses my mind that I should just be doing "good" for people.  So far I have yet to follow through.  Bateaux seems to set a good example in this regard while still working.  It would be kinda nice when I trundle off this mortal coil, people would say I did some good.  Was that deep enough?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fru-Gal on February 07, 2023, 03:06:42 PM

Quote

Now, money seems to flow in so easily, and I don’t need it so much, so I need to figure out what the intrinsic motivation is for what I’m doing, whether it’s work or play.

Isn’t this the question at the heart of all post-FIRE existential crises? It’s a rumination about the nature of success (fame, fortune, skill, etc). Anyone who reaches a peak of human striving, who “wins the game” will come to face these questions. So, you get to choose: Do I keep playing this game that I won, or find ways to make it interesting, or do I find a new game? Or do I intentionally try to lose so that I don’t have to make that choice and go back to the scary/difficult stages of any early endeavor?

Because money is so important in our society, I am glad I wasn’t born super rich, as that seems often to engender this “won the game” ennui from the start. However, I WAS born super rich: in health, family, nation of origin, etc. It’s only society’s focus on money that prevents me from seeing this. How many people (myself included) do their best to “lose the game” (find something wrong/an excuse) because they’re overwhelmed by their non-monetary wealth?

I’ve been nursing a guaranteed unpopular theory lately… what if life has always been easy? I mean throughout history? I’m not talking about the worst parts (wars, pandemics, famines, natural disasters), though even these benefit some people while others die. But everything else, farming, culture, storytelling, civilization or nomadism… what if it has always been easy? Sure, I don’t farm my food, but if I don’t get many hours of hard exercise every week I am miserable and my life will be shorter. Rumi or Marcus Aurelius or Confucius or Socrates… they are all talking about the same injustices and mental conflicts that torment humans. These things never change.

It’s like FIRE. It’s actually easy (I can only say this now after 30+ years of striving), but society does its best to obscure that fact. Making a 6-figure salary, it’s not hard to save half a million dollars in less than a decade. But everywhere the message says “Life is hard. You can’t win. Better make yourself feel good by buying a $50k car, a $200k education, $100k in food and toys per year…”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 07, 2023, 04:38:23 PM

Quote from: Fru-Gal on February 07, 2023, 03:06:42 PM

Quote

Now, money seems to flow in so easily, and I don’t need it so much, so I need to figure out what the intrinsic motivation is for what I’m doing, whether it’s work or play.

Isn’t this the question at the heart of all post-FIRE existential crises? It’s a rumination about the nature of success (fame, fortune, skill, etc). Anyone who reaches a peak of human striving, who “wins the game” will come to face these questions. So, you get to choose: Do I keep playing this game that I won, or find ways to make it interesting, or do I find a new game? Or do I intentionally try to lose so that I don’t have to make that choice and go back to the scary/difficult stages of any early endeavor?

Because money is so important in our society, I am glad I wasn’t born super rich, as that seems often to engender this “won the game” ennui from the start. However, I WAS born super rich: in health, family, nation of origin, etc. It’s only society’s focus on money that prevents me from seeing this. How many people (myself included) do their best to “lose the game” (find something wrong/an excuse) because they’re overwhelmed by their non-monetary wealth?

I’ve been nursing a guaranteed unpopular theory lately… what if life has always been easy? I mean throughout history? I’m not talking about the worst parts (wars, pandemics, famines, natural disasters), though even these benefit some people while others die. But everything else, farming, culture, storytelling, civilization or nomadism… what if it has always been easy? Sure, I don’t farm my food, but if I don’t get many hours of hard exercise every week I am miserable and my life will be shorter. Rumi or Marcus Aurelius or Confucius or Socrates… they are all talking about the same injustices and mental conflicts that torment humans. These things never change.

It’s like FIRE. It’s actually easy (I can only say this now after 30+ years of striving), but society does its best to obscure that fact. Making a 6-figure salary, it’s not hard to save half a million dollars in less than a decade. But everywhere the message says “Life is hard. You can’t win. Better make yourself feel good by buying a $50k car, a $200k education, $100k in food and toys per year…”

Excellent - I saw this film a while back about natives who hunt and gather in the Brazilian jungle.  The film pointed out that they do not put hours and hours gathering their food every day.  It usually only took a few hours.  I was working a lot of overtime about the time I saw that film and the thought, "WTF," crossed my mind.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 07, 2023, 08:05:40 PM

Well and there have been numerous articles about how peasants in the Middle Ages had many more days off than we have today.

  https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html (https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on February 08, 2023, 04:20:04 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on February 07, 2023, 08:05:40 PM

Well and there have been numerous articles about how peasants in the Middle Ages had many more days off than we have today.

  https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html (https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html)

Articles like these are not helping my motivation levels at work...haha. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 09, 2023, 05:26:29 AM

Not to get too philosophical, but the nature of work seems to have been the ultimate conclusion of all this FIRE stuff.  Probably because I read FIRE'd blogs and don't meet many of the bon vivant / lazy ER types, but most FIRE folks (the truly Early retired) find new 'hustles' (aka work) which better match their interests and satisfy any income / self-actualization / purpose needs.  That's one reason I got so miffed when people so staunchly call their hustle lifestyle 'Retirement', a word that has been used for generations to represent when you are done with work (mainly due to infirmity), start collecting your social security and get on medicare, etc...  I personally find it misleading to call this lifestyle retirement and it's no wonder normal people are immediately confused if a 30 year old says they retired, instead of better words like 'financially independent', 'stay at home parent', non-working spouse, blogger, etc.  I'm always sure there's a better word than retired to describe themselves.  Even my buddy that lives on a boat calls himself a sailor rather than introducing himself as a retiree, although he could use either.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 09, 2023, 07:52:59 AM

Something like "private fund manager" seems a better fit than "retired" for many of us. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: sisto on February 09, 2023, 10:58:48 AM

Quote from: Fru-Gal on February 07, 2023, 03:06:42 PM

Quote

Now, money seems to flow in so easily, and I don’t need it so much, so I need to figure out what the intrinsic motivation is for what I’m doing, whether it’s work or play.

Isn’t this the question at the heart of all post-FIRE existential crises? It’s a rumination about the nature of success (fame, fortune, skill, etc). Anyone who reaches a peak of human striving, who “wins the game” will come to face these questions. So, you get to choose: Do I keep playing this game that I won, or find ways to make it interesting, or do I find a new game? Or do I intentionally try to lose so that I don’t have to make that choice and go back to the scary/difficult stages of any early endeavor?

Because money is so important in our society, I am glad I wasn’t born super rich, as that seems often to engender this “won the game” ennui from the start. However, I WAS born super rich: in health, family, nation of origin, etc. It’s only society’s focus on money that prevents me from seeing this. How many people (myself included) do their best to “lose the game” (find something wrong/an excuse) because they’re overwhelmed by their non-monetary wealth?

I’ve been nursing a guaranteed unpopular theory lately… what if life has always been easy? I mean throughout history? I’m not talking about the worst parts (wars, pandemics, famines, natural disasters), though even these benefit some people while others die. But everything else, farming, culture, storytelling, civilization or nomadism… what if it has always been easy? Sure, I don’t farm my food, but if I don’t get many hours of hard exercise every week I am miserable and my life will be shorter. Rumi or Marcus Aurelius or Confucius or Socrates… they are all talking about the same injustices and mental conflicts that torment humans. These things never change.

It’s like FIRE. It’s actually easy (I can only say this now after 30+ years of striving), but society does its best to obscure that fact. Making a 6-figure salary, it’s not hard to save half a million dollars in less than a decade. But everywhere the message says “Life is hard. You can’t win. Better make yourself feel good by buying a $50k car, a $200k education, $100k in food and toys per year…”

Exactly! And the people have bought into the lie, you can't convince them otherwise, even when shown empirical evidence. I've always thought differently than most people and always been frugal. I grew up poor and learned how to save. I had struggles at times and bought into the hype of buy buy buy here and there, but thankfully my drive to retire early was stronger. I just go on and try to live my life as an example to others and hope I can effect change. I know over the years, I've made some small differences in the lives of friends and family, but I wish I could do more. Some people just have to be the victim. SMH

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on February 09, 2023, 11:54:06 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 09, 2023, 05:26:29 AM

Not to get too philosophical, but the nature of work seems to have been the ultimate conclusion of all this FIRE stuff.  Probably because I read FIRE'd blogs and don't meet many of the bon vivant / lazy ER types, but most FIRE folks (the truly Early retired) find new 'hustles' (aka work) which better match their interests and satisfy any income / self-actualization / purpose needs.  That's one reason I got so miffed when people so staunchly call their hustle lifestyle 'Retirement', a word that has been used for generations to represent when you are done with work (mainly due to infirmity), start collecting your social security and get on medicare, etc...  I personally find it misleading to call this lifestyle retirement and it's no wonder normal people are immediately confused if a 30 year old says they retired, instead of better words like 'financially independent', 'stay at home parent', non-working spouse, blogger, etc.  I'm always sure there's a better word than retired to describe themselves.  Even my buddy that lives on a boat calls himself a sailor rather than introducing himself as a retiree, although he could use either.

Totally agree.  I think many here have jobs they do not really enjoy ( including myself to a certain extent ), or did enjoy at one point but no longer do.  And yes, I also do have a side hustle I enjoy.

Maybe FIPF ( Financial Independence for Personal Fulfillment ) is a better acronym?   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on February 09, 2023, 11:56:07 AM

Quote from: sisto on February 09, 2023, 10:58:48 AM

Quote from: Fru-Gal on February 07, 2023, 03:06:42 PM

Quote

Now, money seems to flow in so easily, and I don’t need it so much, so I need to figure out what the intrinsic motivation is for what I’m doing, whether it’s work or play.

Isn’t this the question at the heart of all post-FIRE existential crises? It’s a rumination about the nature of success (fame, fortune, skill, etc). Anyone who reaches a peak of human striving, who “wins the game” will come to face these questions. So, you get to choose: Do I keep playing this game that I won, or find ways to make it interesting, or do I find a new game? Or do I intentionally try to lose so that I don’t have to make that choice and go back to the scary/difficult stages of any early endeavor?

Because money is so important in our society, I am glad I wasn’t born super rich, as that seems often to engender this “won the game” ennui from the start. However, I WAS born super rich: in health, family, nation of origin, etc. It’s only society’s focus on money that prevents me from seeing this. How many people (myself included) do their best to “lose the game” (find something wrong/an excuse) because they’re overwhelmed by their non-monetary wealth?

I’ve been nursing a guaranteed unpopular theory lately… what if life has always been easy? I mean throughout history? I’m not talking about the worst parts (wars, pandemics, famines, natural disasters), though even these benefit some people while others die. But everything else, farming, culture, storytelling, civilization or nomadism… what if it has always been easy? Sure, I don’t farm my food, but if I don’t get many hours of hard exercise every week I am miserable and my life will be shorter. Rumi or Marcus Aurelius or Confucius or Socrates… they are all talking about the same injustices and mental conflicts that torment humans. These things never change.

It’s like FIRE. It’s actually easy (I can only say this now after 30+ years of striving), but society does its best to obscure that fact. Making a 6-figure salary, it’s not hard to save half a million dollars in less than a decade. But everywhere the message says “Life is hard. You can’t win. Better make yourself feel good by buying a $50k car, a $200k education, $100k in food and toys per year…”

Exactly! And the people have bought into the lie, you can't convince them otherwise, even when shown empirical evidence. I've always thought differently than most people and always been frugal. I grew up poor and learned how to save. I had struggles at times and bought into the hype of buy buy buy here and there, but thankfully my drive to retire early was stronger. I just go on and try to live my life as an example to others and hope I can effect change. I know over the years, I've made some small differences in the lives of friends and family, but I wish I could do more. Some people just have to be the victim. SMH

It can be a vicious circle for many folks too.  People get depressed when they buy into the hype, and many turn to "retail therapy", which sends them further down the hole, etc...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 09, 2023, 12:17:43 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on February 09, 2023, 11:54:06 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 09, 2023, 05:26:29 AM

Not to get too philosophical, but the nature of work seems to have been the ultimate conclusion of all this FIRE stuff.  Probably because I read FIRE'd blogs and don't meet many of the bon vivant / lazy ER types, but most FIRE folks (the truly Early retired) find new 'hustles' (aka work) which better match their interests and satisfy any income / self-actualization / purpose needs.  That's one reason I got so miffed when people so staunchly call their hustle lifestyle 'Retirement', a word that has been used for generations to represent when you are done with work (mainly due to infirmity), start collecting your social security and get on medicare, etc...  I personally find it misleading to call this lifestyle retirement and it's no wonder normal people are immediately confused if a 30 year old says they retired, instead of better words like 'financially independent', 'stay at home parent', non-working spouse, blogger, etc.  I'm always sure there's a better word than retired to describe themselves.  Even my buddy that lives on a boat calls himself a sailor rather than introducing himself as a retiree, although he could use either.

Totally agree.  I think many here have jobs they do not really enjoy ( including myself to a certain extent ), or did enjoy at one point but no longer do.  And yes, I also do have a side hustle I enjoy.

Maybe FIPF ( Financial Independence for Personal Fulfillment ) is a better acronym?

I guess that’s the irony of it, FIRE is nothing new despite all the blogging hype around it…. What we have called FIRE, people used to call whatever it actually was that they were doing.  I’m sure most people would call Pete a house flipper, blogger, small business owner (MMM HQ), landlord, stay at home parent, or whatever best describes him now, if he were IRL talking to a stranger…

My wife was FIRE at 30 according to our ‘rules’, but apparently didn’t realize how valuable this designation was and instead went by stay at home parent for 10 years while the kids were young.  She would’ve punched me if I called her retired.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: sisto on February 09, 2023, 12:47:53 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 09, 2023, 12:17:43 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on February 09, 2023, 11:54:06 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 09, 2023, 05:26:29 AM

Not to get too philosophical, but the nature of work seems to have been the ultimate conclusion of all this FIRE stuff.  Probably because I read FIRE'd blogs and don't meet many of the bon vivant / lazy ER types, but most FIRE folks (the truly Early retired) find new 'hustles' (aka work) which better match their interests and satisfy any income / self-actualization / purpose needs.  That's one reason I got so miffed when people so staunchly call their hustle lifestyle 'Retirement', a word that has been used for generations to represent when you are done with work (mainly due to infirmity), start collecting your social security and get on medicare, etc...  I personally find it misleading to call this lifestyle retirement and it's no wonder normal people are immediately confused if a 30 year old says they retired, instead of better words like 'financially independent', 'stay at home parent', non-working spouse, blogger, etc.  I'm always sure there's a better word than retired to describe themselves.  Even my buddy that lives on a boat calls himself a sailor rather than introducing himself as a retiree, although he could use either.

Totally agree.  I think many here have jobs they do not really enjoy ( including myself to a certain extent ), or did enjoy at one point but no longer do.  And yes, I also do have a side hustle I enjoy.

Maybe FIPF ( Financial Independence for Personal Fulfillment ) is a better acronym?

I guess that’s the irony of it, FIRE is nothing new despite all the blogging hype around it…. What we have called FIRE, people used to call whatever it actually was that they were doing.  I’m sure most people would call Pete a house flipper, blogger, small business owner (MMM HQ), landlord, stay at home parent, or whatever best describes him now, if he were IRL talking to a stranger…

My wife was FIRE at 30 according to our ‘rules’, but apparently didn’t realize how valuable this designation was and instead went by stay at home parent for 10 years while the kids were young.  She would’ve punched me if I called her retired.

My wife also stayed home with our kids. I know she had the tougher job, even though I put in long hours over the years, but it always amazed me how people want to define you by your job. After the kids were out of the house people suddenly thought she should have a job. It was ridiculous to me, at that point she'd been out of the workforce for 20+ years. I told her to just start telling people she was retired. I mean if it didn't bother me, why should it bother them?! Our culture is so weird. Other countries don't define people by their job/s. I remember a few cases of working women and stay at home dads too and that was even worse. People have such preconceived notions about how things should be. I hope some day we can get away from that mentality and thinking. Do what works best for you and your family!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 09, 2023, 01:17:17 PM

Quote from: sisto on February 09, 2023, 12:47:53 PM

-snip-

My wife also stayed home with our kids. I know she had the tougher job, even though I put in long hours over the years, but it always amazed me how people want to define you by your job. After the kids were out of the house people suddenly thought she should have a job. It was ridiculous to me, at that point she'd been out of the workforce for 20+ years. I told her to just start telling people she was retired. I mean if it didn't bother me, why should it bother them?! Our culture is so weird. Other countries don't define people by their job/s. I remember a few cases of working women and stay at home dads too and that was even worse. People have such preconceived notions about how things should be. I hope some day we can get away from that mentality and thinking. Do what works best for you and your family!

Totally agree, and it's a good conversation to have around why people's identity as an employee is so important in the US.  My eldest sister ran in to this first and now my wife, now that the kids are independent...  It's a recurring theme about what to do when you are too young to be seen as properly 'retired' (and/or wanting to do more) but not really wanting a job...  Telling them to call themselves FIRE'd and spend all day on this forum doesn't seem to be the answer :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on February 09, 2023, 02:58:50 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 09, 2023, 01:17:17 PM

Quote from: sisto on February 09, 2023, 12:47:53 PM

-snip-

My wife also stayed home with our kids. I know she had the tougher job, even though I put in long hours over the years, but it always amazed me how people want to define you by your job. After the kids were out of the house people suddenly thought she should have a job. It was ridiculous to me, at that point she'd been out of the workforce for 20+ years. I told her to just start telling people she was retired. I mean if it didn't bother me, why should it bother them?! Our culture is so weird. Other countries don't define people by their job/s. I remember a few cases of working women and stay at home dads too and that was even worse. People have such preconceived notions about how things should be. I hope some day we can get away from that mentality and thinking. Do what works best for you and your family!

Totally agree, and it's a good conversation to have around why people's identity as an employee is so important in the US.  My eldest sister ran in to this first and now my wife, now that the kids are independent...  It's a recurring theme about what to do when you are too young to be seen as properly 'retired' (and/or wanting to do more) but not really wanting a job...  Telling them to call themselves FIRE'd and spend all day on this forum doesn't seem to be the answer :)

I think back sometimes to when I was newer in the engineering area and try to reflect on how I thought about myself in terms of the job. This tends to come out when I talk to one of the newer "hard chargers". I think somewhere along the line, maybe after getting into some supervisory positions and getting more inside info on how screwy large corporations tend to be, that I started transitioning away from sipping the poisoned punch.

I spent several years working in engineering in Germany and would say it felt sort of the same there that a lot of my coworkers were all about the job. But of course Germany is somewhat similar to the US in a lot areas.

It is an intriguing subject.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on February 10, 2023, 08:42:51 AM

I saw an Oscar Wilde play the other day (A Woman of No Importance) and one of the main characters is a young American heiress who is visiting the country house of some English landed gentry.  She has several long speeches in which "she" (aka Oscar Wilde) comments on the differences between American and English society/culture.  She is in love with a young man who has just agreed to become the private secretary of a rather rapacious middle aged Lord.  The gentry ladies are commenting on how unfortunate it is that he does not come from wealth and has to be so concerned about how to make a living/rise up in society rather than just having a position and a fortune handed to him.  The American lady then goes on a long spiel about how Americans value work/striving and expect it even from the privileged.

The play debuted in 1893.  The more things change the more they stay the same, I guess.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 15, 2023, 10:54:04 PM

DW’s car got a flat today. It wasn’t catastrophic, but it was fast enough that she ended destroying the tire, but not the rim. We were far enough from home that it was too far to drive home on the spare (if you follow the rules to the letter). We tried to get it fixed at the tire chain where we bought the tires, but they didn’t have the same winter tire in stock, and they wouldn’t put on an oddball tire or even an oddball pair. Kinda frustrating, but I get it.  Because we have other options, we didn’t get backed into an unexpected purchase of four tires.

Fortunately I was there in my own car (we came from different directions) so I was able to get the spare on (and it had air because I rotate our tires with our kids, and we always fill the spare!) and haul everyone home in my car. We left the car at a relative’s place, and we’ll go back in a couple of days with the 4 summer tires and have those put on so we can get home. This weekend we can sort out what to do with the bad tire without any pressure to solve it right now. And since we have a very unmastachian third car, we’ll be able to do our separate things tomorrow without issues. It’s times like these when I’m very grateful to be in this club. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 23, 2023, 11:00:05 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on February 09, 2023, 07:52:59 AM

Something like "private fund manager" seems a better fit than "retired" for many of us.

Heh - that's me for sure :-)

For a while, I was lurking around a lot on Bogleheads trying to find the right way to juggle the tradeoffs between Roth conversions, RMDs and IRMAA. After spend a lot of time last year on planning tools and spreadsheets, I came to the conclusion that we had way too much money to be able to avoid paying taxes. So this year, I am just trying to spend less time on this and more on fun hobbies.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 23, 2023, 11:16:42 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 23, 2023, 11:00:05 AM

For a while, I was lurking around a lot on Bogleheads trying to find the right way to juggle the tradeoffs between Roth conversions, RMDs and IRMAA. After spend a lot of time last year on planning tools and spreadsheets, I came to the conclusion that we had way too much money to be able to avoid paying taxes. So this year, I am just trying to spend less time on this and more on fun hobbies.

Lol, I appreciate this affirmation. We have more than we will ever need. We are uninclined to jump through hoops to avoid paying taxes on money we didn't pay taxes on in the first place. Blasphemy!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 23, 2023, 12:57:16 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 23, 2023, 11:16:42 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 23, 2023, 11:00:05 AM

For a while, I was lurking around a lot on Bogleheads trying to find the right way to juggle the tradeoffs between Roth conversions, RMDs and IRMAA. After spend a lot of time last year on planning tools and spreadsheets, I came to the conclusion that we had way too much money to be able to avoid paying taxes. So this year, I am just trying to spend less time on this and more on fun hobbies.

Lol, I appreciate this affirmation. We have more than we will ever need. We are uninclined to jump through hoops to avoid paying taxes on money we didn't pay taxes on in the first place. Blasphemy!

Making life even more complicated, sometimes it makes sense to pay more taxes early so that funds spend more time in the Roth IRA!  The Finance Buff has a health attitude toward not trying too hard to optimize everything given all the unknowns...  There is a point of diminishing returns and missing out on what it is really all about anyway.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on February 23, 2023, 02:21:00 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 23, 2023, 12:57:16 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 23, 2023, 11:16:42 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 23, 2023, 11:00:05 AM

For a while, I was lurking around a lot on Bogleheads trying to find the right way to juggle the tradeoffs between Roth conversions, RMDs and IRMAA. After spend a lot of time last year on planning tools and spreadsheets, I came to the conclusion that we had way too much money to be able to avoid paying taxes. So this year, I am just trying to spend less time on this and more on fun hobbies.

Lol, I appreciate this affirmation. We have more than we will ever need. We are uninclined to jump through hoops to avoid paying taxes on money we didn't pay taxes on in the first place. Blasphemy!

Making life even more complicated, sometimes it makes sense to pay more taxes early so that funds spend more time in the Roth IRA!  The Finance Buff has a health attitude toward not trying too hard to optimize everything given all the unknowns...  There is a point of diminishing returns and missing out on what it is really all about anyway.

Yep.
An MPP is that I've gotten so used to paying <$100 Federal Taxes (qualified dividends and capital gains are my chief income) that going back to paying taxes like I did when I was single (17% effective) will be difficult.
The urge to optimize might get out of hand. 
I'll have to remember these posts on this thread and just relax.   
I had to explain to DW that the old saw of "Taxes and Death" is a real thing, and even Death can get taxed.


MPP = https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mustachian-people-problems-(just-for-fun)/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 23, 2023, 08:58:42 PM

Quote from: markbike528CBX on February 23, 2023, 02:21:00 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 23, 2023, 12:57:16 PM

Quote from: Dicey on February 23, 2023, 11:16:42 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 23, 2023, 11:00:05 AM

For a while, I was lurking around a lot on Bogleheads trying to find the right way to juggle the tradeoffs between Roth conversions, RMDs and IRMAA. After spend a lot of time last year on planning tools and spreadsheets, I came to the conclusion that we had way too much money to be able to avoid paying taxes. So this year, I am just trying to spend less time on this and more on fun hobbies.

Lol, I appreciate this affirmation. We have more than we will ever need. We are uninclined to jump through hoops to avoid paying taxes on money we didn't pay taxes on in the first place. Blasphemy!

Making life even more complicated, sometimes it makes sense to pay more taxes early so that funds spend more time in the Roth IRA!  The Finance Buff has a health attitude toward not trying too hard to optimize everything given all the unknowns...  There is a point of diminishing returns and missing out on what it is really all about anyway.

Yep.
An MPP is that I've gotten so used to paying <$100 Federal Taxes (qualified dividends and capital gains are my chief income) that going back to paying taxes like I did when I was single (17% effective) will be difficult.
The urge to optimize might get out of hand. 
I'll have to remember these posts on this thread and just relax.   
I had to explain to DW that the old saw of "Taxes and Death" is a real thing, and even Death can get taxed.


MPP = https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mustachian-people-problems-(just-for-fun)/

I hate having to remember to write a check by April 15th.  And I had a few years where I went from getting a large refund to owing close to 5 figures.  So I now on the Federal side tend to error on making slow baby steps.  I was super proud to get my return back in Mi to the famous less than $100 but have been no where close with Federal.

This year both the Feds and CA are likely large.  I got a bonus in May for moving to a hard to staff area for the Federal Government.  They paid it like regular salary in my biweekly paycheck.  That check was taxed between federal state and social security at combined 53% tax rate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 24, 2023, 02:41:33 PM

How many of you have not even looked at their portfolios since the market took a dump last year?

I think I was waiting for the S&P to hit 3200 before turning some bonds into stocks.. But that never happened and I sort of lost interest.

I then took a job, then retired again and currently have about $65k in our checking account even after maxing my 401k, HSA and spending more on my new lathe and milling machine than I did on my first house!.. OK that statement scares me a little.

So no I have not even looked in out portfoilo which was around 70/30 stocks to bonds from memory.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Josiecat22222 on February 24, 2023, 03:12:22 PM

I wish I could keep myself from looking.  I look at the market data daily, but only calculate NW on the first of the month as a deliberate effort.  I've been FIREd for two and a half years, so I keep reminding myself that we still have more than we did when I first left paid employment, but no one likes to see the numbers go down!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 24, 2023, 03:26:13 PM

Quote from: Josiecat23503 on February 24, 2023, 03:12:22 PM

I wish I could keep myself from looking.  I look at the market data daily, but only calculate NW on the first of the month as a deliberate effort.  I've been FIREd for two and a half years, so I keep reminding myself that we still have more than we did when I first left paid employment, but no one likes to see the numbers go down!

Yes very true. I guess after 9 years since I left (fired actually.. No not FI'red) my last grown up job and nothing remotely close to any kind of financial tragedy as happened I guess I can assume we are fairly resilient.

Note I did break my wrist in 2019.. HD HC plan.. Ouch!... But wait, the healthcare part of our index funds made quite a bit more than the $28k my insurance company was billed that year.. never even noticed it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: oldladystache on February 24, 2023, 05:55:43 PM

I look at mine almost every day. Just to satisfy my curiosity. I don't plan to make any changes. When my next quarterly influx of money comes in I'll spend maybe an hour getting it all invested or stashed for immediate needs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 24, 2023, 07:24:07 PM

I too look at my vanguard account a decent amount.  I don’t change anything.  Monthly I do a manual buy at a minimum.  On my 401k, as it was going back up, I was checking to see if the account ticked over to 7 figures again, but with the last weeks downward trend I haven’t bothered.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 24, 2023, 09:54:08 PM

About half of our retirement income will come from my pension which I'll be eligible for this summer.  That makes the dollar amount of the other accounts no so important now.  I've got less than 80 days till I potentially never work again.  Live is good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Reader on February 24, 2023, 11:03:27 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 24, 2023, 09:54:08 PM

About half of our retirement income will come from my pension which I'll be eligible for this summer.  That makes the dollar amount of the other accounts no so important now.  I've got less than 80 days till I potentially never work again.  Live is good.

congrats!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 24, 2023, 11:08:18 PM

Yes very nice...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on February 25, 2023, 03:13:51 PM

79 days now, but you are probably not counting.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 25, 2023, 03:25:46 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 24, 2023, 09:54:08 PM

About half of our retirement income will come from my pension which I'll be eligible for this summer.  That makes the dollar amount of the other accounts no so important now.  I've got less than 80 days till I potentially never work again.  Live is good.

Wow, when eligible for SS will it be significant?  Seems like you'll need no accounts at that point other than an emergency fund.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on February 25, 2023, 08:14:12 PM

I look every day and update our NW weekly. Just because.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 25, 2023, 08:23:52 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on February 25, 2023, 03:25:46 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 24, 2023, 09:54:08 PM

About half of our retirement income will come from my pension which I'll be eligible for this summer.  That makes the dollar amount of the other accounts no so important now.  I've got less than 80 days till I potentially never work again.  Live is good.

Wow, when eligible for SS will it be significant?  Seems like you'll need no accounts at that point other than an emergency fund.

For me, my pension will be 40% of salary.  Yes and no, my pension and SS will cover my needs and basic wants.  But what it truly does is allow me to stay in my HCOL and still have money to cover a lot of things that I want.

ETA:  and assures my inner bag lady that basically I won’t be in a position where I “have to go back to work at 75”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 27, 2023, 04:55:28 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on February 25, 2023, 08:23:52 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on February 25, 2023, 03:25:46 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on February 24, 2023, 09:54:08 PM

About half of our retirement income will come from my pension which I'll be eligible for this summer.  That makes the dollar amount of the other accounts no so important now.  I've got less than 80 days till I potentially never work again.  Live is good.

Wow, when eligible for SS will it be significant?  Seems like you'll need no accounts at that point other than an emergency fund.

For me, my pension will be 40% of salary.  Yes and no, my pension and SS will cover my needs and basic wants.  But what it truly does is allow me to stay in my HCOL and still have money to cover a lot of things that I want.

ETA:  and assures my inner bag lady that basically I won’t be in a position where I “have to go back to work at 75”

My pension will not have COA so look at SS as an inflation hedge.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 03:31:41 PM

Here’s a question for you all. DD was at a game yesterday. A classmate took a photo of her with their phone. She didn’t want the photo taken, and she didn’t like the photo. She attempted to delete the photo. The phone got dropped, and the back glass broke. The parents expect us to do something about it.

Now naturally this phone is a month old, was a gift, is uninsured, and is a much more expensive phone than DW or I have, and of course way nicer than DD’s. Also, I’m in this club, and they’re probably in the negative NW club. They don’t know what club we’re in, but they know we’re in a club, so they have some expectations.

So what’s the right thing to do here? The phone is fully functional except for the broken back glass, so it works but is weakened and no longer waterproof. Do we pay for repair? Offer similar money toward a new phone? Limit any money to then cost of DD’s phone?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: shuffler on February 28, 2023, 04:02:27 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 03:31:41 PM

Here’s a question for you all.

Seems like the only question is whether your daughter was at-fault or not.  Or to what degree.

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 03:31:41 PM

DD was at a game yesterday. A classmate took a photo of her with their phone. She didn’t want the photo taken, and she didn’t like the photo.

Unless the photo was somehow especially and intentionally invasive/crude, I don't think there'd be any expectation of privacy at a game.

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 03:31:41 PM

She attempted to delete the photo. The phone got dropped, and the back glass broke. The parents expect us to do something about it.

Your use of passive-voice ("the phone got dropped") makes me think your daughter was at fault.  That she was grabbing or wrestling for the phone, when its owner didn't want to give it to her.  Is that the case?

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 03:31:41 PM

Now naturally this phone is a month old, was a gift, is uninsured, and is a much more expensive phone than DW or I have, and of course way nicer than DD’s. Also, I’m in this club, and they’re probably in the negative NW club. They don’t know what club we’re in, but they know we’re in a club, so they have some expectations.

Immaterial.

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 03:31:41 PM

So what’s the right thing to do here? The phone is fully functional except for the broken back glass, so it works but is weakened and no longer waterproof. Do we pay for repair? Offer similar money toward a new phone? Limit any money to then cost of DD’s phone?

If your daughter was at fault, I'd think that paying the cost of the repair would be the general expectation.  Not unlike denting another person's car in a fender bender.

The way you wrote this up, it seems like you're putting a lot of weight and thought and supposition into the difference in the two families net worth and their approaches to spending.  I'd suggest you just focus on your own.  You're in this club.  You don't have to sweat this situation.  Not having to worry about or dwell on something like this is one of the benefits of being in the club.  If it's likely (as it seems) that your daughter is at fault, then just pay the cost and put the incident behind you.  It doesn't seem like this is a scam; the other people won't come out ahead of where they were before the incident.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 28, 2023, 04:32:20 PM

Quote from: shuffler on February 28, 2023, 04:02:27 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 03:31:41 PM

Here’s a question for you all.

Seems like the only question is whether your daughter was at-fault or not.  Or to what degree.

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 03:31:41 PM

DD was at a game yesterday. A classmate took a photo of her with their phone. She didn’t want the photo taken, and she didn’t like the photo.

Unless the photo was somehow especially and intentionally invasive/crude, I don't think there'd be any expectation of privacy at a game.

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 03:31:41 PM

She attempted to delete the photo. The phone got dropped, and the back glass broke. The parents expect us to do something about it.

Your use of passive-voice ("the phone got dropped") makes me think your daughter was at fault.  That she was grabbing or wrestling for the phone, when its owner didn't want to give it to her.  Is that the case?

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 03:31:41 PM

Now naturally this phone is a month old, was a gift, is uninsured, and is a much more expensive phone than DW or I have, and of course way nicer than DD’s. Also, I’m in this club, and they’re probably in the negative NW club. They don’t know what club we’re in, but they know we’re in a club, so they have some expectations.

Immaterial.

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 03:31:41 PM

So what’s the right thing to do here? The phone is fully functional except for the broken back glass, so it works but is weakened and no longer waterproof. Do we pay for repair? Offer similar money toward a new phone? Limit any money to then cost of DD’s phone?

If your daughter was at fault, I'd think that paying the cost of the repair would be the general expectation.  Not unlike denting another person's car in a fender bender.

The way you wrote this up, it seems like you're putting a lot of weight and thought and supposition into the difference in the two families net worth and their approaches to spending.  I'd suggest you just focus on your own.  You're in this club.  You don't have to sweat this situation.  Not having to worry about or dwell on something like this is one of the benefits of being in the club.  If it's likely (as it seems) that your daughter is at fault, then just pay the cost and put the incident behind you.  It doesn't seem like this is a scam; the other people won't come out ahead of where they were before the incident.

^This


And you could toss in the cost of insuring the phone "to save them the embarrassment of this happening again."  ;~)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 06:27:05 PM

Yeah, I wrote it up somewhat neutrally.  It sounds like my daughter knocked it out of the other kid's hands, though not intentionally.  I figure we (meaning DD) will pay for the cost of repair.  It's not a big deal for us; it will be a bigger deal for her.  I don't think they'll push for a new phone.

On the plus side, it gave us an opportunity to talk with DD about how things change as she grows up, and consequences get bigger.  Horseplay isn't just a bump on arm or a scrape of the knee anymore.  Full size bodies have more momentum.  Horseplay in certain settings could cause physical injury or worse.  Toys are more expensive.  There are real consequences now for silly behavior.

The financial difference issue comes down more to this:  If she breaks someone else's phone, we are going to end up buying it.  If someone else breaks her phone, guess what... we are going to end up buying it. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 02, 2023, 07:39:52 AM

Yes, agree with GreenEggs and shuffler. I'd replace the phone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on March 02, 2023, 07:54:37 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 06:27:05 PM

Yeah, I wrote it up somewhat neutrally.  It sounds like my daughter knocked it out of the other kid's hands, though not intentionally.  I figure we (meaning DD) will pay for the cost of repair.  It's not a big deal for us; it will be a bigger deal for her.  I don't think they'll push for a new phone.

On the plus side, it gave us an opportunity to talk with DD about how things change as she grows up, and consequences get bigger.  Horseplay isn't just a bump on arm or a scrape of the knee anymore.  Full size bodies have more momentum.  Horseplay in certain settings could cause physical injury or worse.  Toys are more expensive.  There are real consequences now for silly behavior.

The financial difference issue comes down more to this:  If she breaks someone else's phone, we are going to end up buying it.  If someone else breaks her phone, guess what... we are going to end up buying it.

Ouch. What bothers me most about this is that the phone wasn't in a protective case and also wasn't insured. I get that your kid might be responsible but don't they have some responsibility to protect the phone. This would bother me. a lot. I put my teen's phone in an otter box and I know that makes it bulky and a pain to carry sometimes but kids are kids and these things WILL happen.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 02, 2023, 08:06:26 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 28, 2023, 06:27:05 PM

...
The financial difference issue comes down more to this:  If she breaks someone else's phone, we are going to end up buying it.  If someone else breaks her phone, guess what... we are going to end up buying it.

I don't think our financial status has ever factored in to who is responsible when a phone is damaged.  If my daughter knocks the phone out of someone's hands, then 'we' are responsible.  If someone else knocks the phone out of her hands, they are responsible. 

We had a situation where the phone was sitting on the ground and got damaged which was a bit more nuanced, but you get the idea...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 02, 2023, 11:12:40 PM

I stopped by a shop today. Repair cost will be ~$200. I’m not sweating it.  My daughter broke it, we’ll fix it. My reputation is more important than $200.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 02, 2023, 11:13:49 PM

And at $20 per lawn mowing, she’ll owe me ten lawn-mowings this summer. That should be about right.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on March 03, 2023, 07:14:19 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on March 02, 2023, 11:13:49 PM

And at $20 per lawn mowing, she’ll owe me ten lawn-mowings this summer. That should be about right.

No punitive damages assessed?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 03, 2023, 07:29:52 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on March 03, 2023, 07:14:19 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on March 02, 2023, 11:13:49 PM

And at $20 per lawn mowing, she’ll owe me ten lawn-mowings this summer. That should be about right.

No punitive damages assessed?

Exactly.  Now that she has a damaged resume, you can probably cut the lawn mowing payments to $10...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on March 03, 2023, 09:31:52 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 03, 2023, 07:29:52 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on March 03, 2023, 07:14:19 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on March 02, 2023, 11:13:49 PM

And at $20 per lawn mowing, she’ll owe me ten lawn-mowings this summer. That should be about right.

No punitive damages assessed?

Exactly.  Now that she has a damaged resume, you can probably cut the lawn mowing payments to $10...

Great suggestions. These are the shrewd financial moves that allow us to be in this race thread.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on March 03, 2023, 09:52:34 AM

You folks are killing me.

On the thread subject, I have been slightly annoyed over the last months with the continued somewhat sideways market action. "Annoyed" because I feel like there is not upward movement. "Slightly" because I know all these equities we keep buying are going to really mature up nicely over the next decade(s). Still, I take some enjoyment in seeing some upward movement. Our all time high was around December 2021. We save an awful lot (or I wouldn't be here I suppose) and still need some market gains to see a new high. My life is hard.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 03, 2023, 10:14:32 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on March 03, 2023, 09:52:34 AM

You folks are killing me.

On the thread subject, I have been slightly annoyed over the last months with the continued somewhat sideways market action. "Annoyed" because I feel like there is not upward movement. "Slightly" because I know all these equities we keep buying are going to really mature up nicely over the next decade(s). Still, I take some enjoyment in seeing some upward movement. Our all time high was around December 2021. We save an awful lot (or I wouldn't be here I suppose) and still need some market gains to see a new high. My life is hard.

Wait till you retire.. My portfolio is a train wreck.. I've probably lost $0.5M.. HALF A MILLION DOLLARS! So my life is MUCH worse than yours!..;)

Note: I don't actually know how much I've lost cus I'm too lazy to check..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 03, 2023, 12:58:36 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on March 03, 2023, 09:52:34 AM

You folks are killing me.

On the thread subject, I have been slightly annoyed over the last months with the continued somewhat sideways market action. "Annoyed" because I feel like there is not upward movement. "Slightly" because I know all these equities we keep buying are going to really mature up nicely over the next decade(s). Still, I take some enjoyment in seeing some upward movement. Our all time high was around December 2021. We save an awful lot (or I wouldn't be here I suppose) and still need some market gains to see a new high. My life is hard.

The market was mostly flat for over a decade from 2000 until about 2011. It took real faith in the market to invest for the long term back then! But the reward for this came much later when I was able to retire early in my 50s.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on March 03, 2023, 01:23:36 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 03, 2023, 12:58:36 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on March 03, 2023, 09:52:34 AM

You folks are killing me.

On the thread subject, I have been slightly annoyed over the last months with the continued somewhat sideways market action. "Annoyed" because I feel like there is not upward movement. "Slightly" because I know all these equities we keep buying are going to really mature up nicely over the next decade(s). Still, I take some enjoyment in seeing some upward movement. Our all time high was around December 2021. We save an awful lot (or I wouldn't be here I suppose) and still need some market gains to see a new high. My life is hard.

The market was mostly flat for over a decade from 2000 until about 2011. It took real faith in the market to invest for the long term back then! But the reward for this came much later when I was able to retire early in my 50s.

Yeah, for that entire time period I was working for two companies that were somewhat unstable. The first was Cummins, where they tossed out 5-10% of employees each year just because. The second was in the automotive sector where times just got real difficult in general in 2009. So I was more stressed about staying employed (somehow I did until landing at a much more stable company) that the monthly investments were simply on autopilot and rarely thought about.

I think when people like you share those experiences, it hopefully helps to fortify folks who have only been investing for a couple years. Once you convince yourself that the market is going to generally go up over a couple decades, then holding your nose, turning your head, and shoveling in all you can throughout times like this should be easier.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 04, 2023, 11:09:29 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 03, 2023, 10:14:32 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on March 03, 2023, 09:52:34 AM

You folks are killing me.

On the thread subject, I have been slightly annoyed over the last months with the continued somewhat sideways market action. "Annoyed" because I feel like there is not upward movement. "Slightly" because I know all these equities we keep buying are going to really mature up nicely over the next decade(s). Still, I take some enjoyment in seeing some upward movement. Our all time high was around December 2021. We save an awful lot (or I wouldn't be here I suppose) and still need some market gains to see a new high. My life is hard.

Wait till you retire.. My portfolio is a train wreck.. I've probably lost $0.5M.. HALF A MILLION DOLLARS! So my life is MUCH worse than yours!..;)

Note: I don't actually know how much I've lost cus I'm too lazy to check..

I checked.  About 175K down from all time stupid high point.
Still about a million above where I need to be before even being concerned.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 05, 2023, 10:54:38 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 04, 2023, 11:09:29 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 03, 2023, 10:14:32 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on March 03, 2023, 09:52:34 AM

You folks are killing me.

On the thread subject, I have been slightly annoyed over the last months with the continued somewhat sideways market action. "Annoyed" because I feel like there is not upward movement. "Slightly" because I know all these equities we keep buying are going to really mature up nicely over the next decade(s). Still, I take some enjoyment in seeing some upward movement. Our all time high was around December 2021. We save an awful lot (or I wouldn't be here I suppose) and still need some market gains to see a new high. My life is hard.

Wait till you retire.. My portfolio is a train wreck.. I've probably lost $0.5M.. HALF A MILLION DOLLARS! So my life is MUCH worse than yours!..;)

Note: I don't actually know how much I've lost cus I'm too lazy to check..

I checked.  About 175K down from all time stupid high point.
Still about a million above where I need to be before even being concerned.

Things may not dive too badly.  I just saw a Wall Street Journal video where the big companies are still doing the stock buy back thing.  They are going to buy a trillion dollars of their own stocks back.  Upon reflection, the guys that run these outfits are often paid in stock options.  They should scratch and claw and use every trick in the book to keep those share prices up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 07, 2023, 08:06:58 PM

Just dumped some Quicken data into Excel and looked at our lifetime (since college) savings rate:

Average pre-tax savings rate:  36%
Average post-tax savings rate:  46%

Maximum pre-tax rate:  53%
Maximum post-tax rate:  63%

Early years dragged it down a bit, as did outside events like fancy wedding and honeymoon (totally worth it), fancy trips (totally worth it), and building our house.  However, we saved 19% or more after-tax in every year.  Interesting to see.

Title: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on March 08, 2023, 05:54:00 AM

Yesterday the yield curve inverted even more based on the FED’s comments. Yet we still await the most anticipated recession in modern history.

We still planning to go forward with phase two of updating our house, mostly cosmetic, but still pricey. Since we are golden handcuffed to this house, might as well make it a beauty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 08, 2023, 06:46:14 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on March 07, 2023, 08:06:58 PM

Just dumped some Quicken data into Excel and looked at our lifetime (since college) savings rate:

Average pre-tax savings rate:  36%
Average post-tax savings rate:  46%

Maximum pre-tax rate:  53%
Maximum post-tax rate:  63%

Early years dragged it down a bit, as did outside events like fancy wedding and honeymoon (totally worth it), fancy trips (totally worth it), and building our house.  However, we saved 19% or more after-tax in every year.  Interesting to see.

It's great that you were able to keep such accurate records. I am a bit (hah!) obsessive about collecting data but somehow never kept track of our savings rate. All I can say is that my wife and I both maxed out our 401Ks from the very beginning and then opened our brokerage account as we still had money left over each month.

In the bigger picture, maximizing the savings rate is most important early in your working career. As you get older, the effects of compounding dominate over the savings rate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on March 11, 2023, 10:48:15 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 08, 2023, 06:46:14 AM

In the bigger picture, maximizing the savings rate is most important early in your working career. As you get older, the effects of compounding dominate over the savings rate.

20+ years in, I've certainly seen that a very good (or bad) year in the market will result in portfolio fluctuations that are much larger in magnitude than what we're saving now.  On the other hand, we're able to save at least 5x more per year now than when we first started saving.  During a down year in the market, our savings can offset a ~$100k portfolio drop, and for me that provides a lot of psychological comfort.  Not to mention locking in another $100k per year which we can reasonably expect to be worth a lot more in a decade or two when we're withdrawing it.

So while saving big early on is key, I wouldn't discount the importance of saving even bigger later on!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 11, 2023, 10:58:33 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on March 08, 2023, 05:54:00 AM

Yesterday the yield curve inverted even more based on the FED’s comments. Yet we still await the most anticipated recession in modern history.

We still planning to go forward with phase two of updating our house, mostly cosmetic, but still pricey. Since we are golden handcuffed to this house, might as well make it a beauty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My crystal ball predicts there's going to be a whole lot of that going on in the future, as people cling to what may prove to be once-in-a-lifetime rates. At least the price of lumber is starting to normalize. We just finished a total gut reno of a small condo. With DIY and Craigslist/NextDoor, we kept the whole project to $25k. It's over in the RE section if you have any interest. I heartily agree with fixing up and enjoying it over fixing up to sell.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on March 12, 2023, 08:14:22 AM

Going to be an interesting CPI report on Tuesday for sure! 

I am having a similar thought to @Bird In Hand today -- that, while my savings certainly have not been enough to offset the declines of the past 12-15 months, the S&P 500 is 19% off its high, which means it needs to increase 23% to get back to where it was at its high.  So I have resorted to quickly doing some mental math like that to make sure I'm still on the right path.  Question is -- how long does it take to get there?   another 2 years?  another 4 years?    Even in the massive 2008-2009 recession is was only ~5.5 years before the market was back to all-time highs.

So the positive for me today is that I've been able save to keep myself within ~9% of my high water mark on my invested assets.  Last year not as good of a year for savings as I had intended, due to some unexpected expenses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 12, 2023, 08:44:56 AM

Quote from: arcturus on March 12, 2023, 08:14:22 AM

So I have resorted to quickly doing some mental math like that to make sure I'm still on the right path.  Question is -- how long does it take to get there?   another 2 years?  another 4 years?    Even in the massive 2008-2009 recession is was only ~5.5 years before the market was back to all-time highs.

There is some good analysis of this information by Karsten over at ERN. The average it appears would be 82 months to return to inflation adjusted high, so we're still quite a way to go being ~14.5 months in.

https://earlyretirementnow.com/2019/10/30/who-is-afraid-of-a-bear-market/

He makes a good point, a 0% real return over 82 months is still pretty terrible performance if you're already retired. The article is worth a read for anyone wondering how close we might be to a "recovery".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 12, 2023, 09:59:14 AM

DH is newly retired and while he's a great steward of money, FIRE is my bag, not his. I know we have plenty of money, but he's concerned about our day-to-day living expenses. I just qualified for Medicare (he has a few years to go) and now he's grappling with when to take Social Security. One calculator suggests he start drawing at 62 (soon) and wait until I'm 70. This seems counterintuitive, because his benefits are higher than mine. Right now, the promise of 7% more for every year we delay taking it looks more attractive than before. What to do, what to do?

We finally sat down with the Rich, Broke or Dead calculator. It showed him that even if we live to 100 and spend like drunken sailors, we'll never run out of money, with or without SS, even with far more conservative AA's. It was a huge relief to him. We still haven't decided when to file, but it's great to know it doesn't really matter. If the market takes longer than average to recover, we can just activate SS and leave our investments alone. Of course, eventually we'll have to face RMD's...

MPP, for sure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 12, 2023, 08:43:34 PM

Funny, @Dicey. HRH and I were having the same conversation today.. I.e we have two years of spending (assuming drunken sailor spending) before touching investments so if the market goes really South.. Well maybe we take our smallish company pensions and of course I hit 62 later this year.. Yipes!

Rich people problems.. RMDs up the waazoo fer sure.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 13, 2023, 04:23:12 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on March 11, 2023, 10:48:15 AM

So while saving big early on is key, I wouldn't discount the importance of saving even bigger later on!

Absolutely! Salaries do rise with experience but my thought is that you cannot count on it as it becomes progressively harder to hold on to your job. I was joking to my wife recently that my biggest achievement was simply remaining employed for 30 years without getting laid off :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on March 13, 2023, 05:58:42 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 13, 2023, 04:23:12 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on March 11, 2023, 10:48:15 AM

So while saving big early on is key, I wouldn't discount the importance of saving even bigger later on!

Absolutely! Salaries do rise with experience but my thought is that you cannot count on it as it becomes progressively harder to hold on to your job. I was joking to my wife recently that my biggest achievement was simply remaining employed for 30 years without getting laid off :-)

I shake my head in amazement sometimes that I have dodged the workplace grim reaper for the last couple decades. Working for two companies that practiced hiring binge and purge for about 11 years, it sometimes does feel like my biggest achievement. I am at a company now that has been much more stable. We did do a decent sized reorg two years ago and a number of folks at the higher levels were squeezed out, but other than that it has been "do your job and you'll have a job."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 13, 2023, 07:43:01 AM

Here's hoping that the sharks in this group have a nice pile of dry powder.  Looks like opportunities are headed our way to start dripping in to equities...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on March 13, 2023, 08:52:36 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 13, 2023, 07:43:01 AM

Here's hoping that the sharks in this group have a nice pile of dry powder.  Looks like opportunities are headed our way to start dripping in to equities...

My dry powder was mostly in BND... which turned out to be wetter than I'd like lol

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 13, 2023, 10:17:04 AM

Quote from: dividendman on March 13, 2023, 08:52:36 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 13, 2023, 07:43:01 AM

Here's hoping that the sharks in this group have a nice pile of dry powder.  Looks like opportunities are headed our way to start dripping in to equities...

My dry powder was mostly in BND... which turned out to be wetter than I'd like lol

Yup I got two years in cash for living and about 40% in in bond funds so not quite dry powder but I could see myself rolling say half my bond funds to VTSAX if we the 40% pullback one talking head was saying this wekend.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 13, 2023, 02:39:03 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 13, 2023, 04:23:12 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on March 11, 2023, 10:48:15 AM

So while saving big early on is key, I wouldn't discount the importance of saving even bigger later on!

Absolutely! Salaries do rise with experience but my thought is that you cannot count on it as it becomes progressively harder to hold on to your job. I was joking to my wife recently that my biggest achievement was simply remaining employed for 30 years without getting laid off :-)

Heh, my wife often joked my biggest career 'mistake' was never being unemployed and often recounted her best 'vacations' were paid by UI....she had a point...I never saw one dime of that...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 14, 2023, 10:28:00 AM

I'm at a four day high angle confined space rope rescue refresher this week.  Upgrading my skill set in case I retire and things go to crap.  Main purpose is I may join a search and rescue team in retirement.  That would be mostly volunteer, but there are some paid industrial applications. I've found out that my 54 year old body is both in better and worse shape than I anticipated.  You find out quickly when you are hanging on a rope.  You have to get yourself and someone else out of a daring situation.  Feeding my inner adrenaline junky.
In less than two months, I'll be out hiking the Appalachian Trail.  These skills are nice to have in remote locations, as we're also training in emergency medical response.
Have a great recession y'all.  Hopefully I'm out of phone service in the woods for most of it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 14, 2023, 10:58:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 14, 2023, 10:28:00 AM

I'm at a four day high angle confined space rope rescue refresher this week.  Upgrading my skill set in case I retire and things go to crap.  Main purpose is I may join a search and rescue team in retirement.  That would be mostly volunteer, but there are some paid industrial applications. I've found out that my 54 year old body is both in better and worse shape than I anticipated.  You find out quickly when you are hanging on a rope.  You have to get yourself and someone else out of a daring situation.  Feeding my inner adrenaline junky.
In less than two months, I'll be out hiking the Appalachian Trail.  These skills are nice to have in remote locations, as we're also training in emergency medical response.
Have a great recession y'all.  Hopefully I'm out of phone service in the woods for most of it.

Dang, many of us old-timers have been waiting and holding our breaths for you for so long. It's fantastic that you're finally crossing the finish line, albeit with multiple belts, suspenders, and now ropes. I hope you get to enjoy the fruits of your labors for many years to come.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 14, 2023, 01:56:33 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 14, 2023, 10:58:17 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 14, 2023, 10:28:00 AM

I'm at a four day high angle confined space rope rescue refresher this week.  Upgrading my skill set in case I retire and things go to crap.  Main purpose is I may join a search and rescue team in retirement.  That would be mostly volunteer, but there are some paid industrial applications. I've found out that my 54 year old body is both in better and worse shape than I anticipated.  You find out quickly when you are hanging on a rope.  You have to get yourself and someone else out of a daring situation.  Feeding my inner adrenaline junky.
In less than two months, I'll be out hiking the Appalachian Trail.  These skills are nice to have in remote locations, as we're also training in emergency medical response.
Have a great recession y'all.  Hopefully I'm out of phone service in the woods for most of it.

Dang, many of us old-timers have been waiting and holding our breaths for you for so long. It's fantastic that you're finally crossing the finish line, albeit with multiple belts, suspenders, and now ropes. I hope you get to enjoy the fruits of your labors for many years to come.

Yeh - Keep moving.  A body not used is like an old tractor left out in the rain.  The mechanism can get stiff and rusty and even useless.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 14, 2023, 02:26:46 PM

Quote from: dividendman on March 13, 2023, 08:52:36 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 13, 2023, 07:43:01 AM

Here's hoping that the sharks in this group have a nice pile of dry powder.  Looks like opportunities are headed our way to start dripping in to equities...

My dry powder was mostly in BND... which turned out to be wetter than I'd like lol

Heh, I hear you, just like 2007/8 bonds weren't much of a hedge and that does hurt.

I'm out of the dry powder game at this point as I'll just spend down what cash I have, though somewhat similarly fingers are crossed my cash lasts until new highs are hit again as the already owned shares would be plenty good enough. If it's in the next few years I should make it...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 15, 2023, 06:56:18 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 13, 2023, 07:43:01 AM

Here's hoping that the sharks in this group have a nice pile of dry powder.  Looks like opportunities are headed our way to start dripping in to equities...

Just launched a salvo in the form of a $50k purchase of VTI :-)

I received a large check in February from the sale of my parents' home. After much pondering and studying this this excellent page (https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-efficient_fund_placement) on the Bogleheads wiki, I decided to use this opportunity to make my asset allocation more tax efficient and also slightly reduce the percentage in stocks. The last step in the rebalancing process was to move $200k to stock - but for some reason, I was hesitant. I'm definitely not a market timer but I guess I was waiting for the right moment. I just saw the big swoon in the market so I decided to resume stock purchases :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on March 15, 2023, 07:43:07 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 15, 2023, 06:56:18 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 13, 2023, 07:43:01 AM

Here's hoping that the sharks in this group have a nice pile of dry powder.  Looks like opportunities are headed our way to start dripping in to equities...

Just launched a salvo in the form of a $50k purchase of VTI :-)

I received a large check in February from the sale of my parents' home. After much pondering and studying this this excellent page (https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-efficient_fund_placement) on the Bogleheads wiki, I decided to use this opportunity to make my asset allocation more tax efficient and also slightly reduce the percentage in stocks. The last step in the rebalancing process was to move $200k to stock - but for some reason, I was hesitant. I'm definitely not a market timer but I guess I was waiting for the right moment. I just saw the big swoon in the market so I decided to resume stock purchases :-)

Thanks, now VTi is surely heading back towards $100/share.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 15, 2023, 10:22:33 AM

With do over back to my youth, I'd go 50% VOO and 50% VTI and just ride the wave DCA.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 21, 2023, 11:17:46 PM

Hey anybody alive in here?  Last week I did a 40 confined space rope rescue class.  Got my grade back, 94%.  Not bad right?  Well, there is a 6% chance that I might drop you. 👨‍🚒🪢

I just completed a 3 day two night backpacking trip.  I made 50 miles.  Holy shit I'm sore.  AT is in about 7 weeks.  Got to keep working hard.  Night y'all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 22, 2023, 05:57:54 AM

Well, if I ever get injured in the pontoon of a semi I know who to call, if you’re not out hiking 👍🏻

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 22, 2023, 09:19:22 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 21, 2023, 11:17:46 PM

Hey anybody alive in here?

Raises hand - Yup I'm here. It's now exactly two and half years since I retired. What have I been up to recently?

- I just gave a guest lecture on software engineering for a class that a friend teaches at a university. This was a lot more fun than I expected. The kids were engaged and asked good question.
- I joined a model train club last year and am having a lot of fun working on club projects.
- Started doing some embedded programming on Arduino and ESP32. I am blown away at how good the development environment and tools are for these devices. I am cooking up some robotics projects that I will start on.
- I will be meeting a bunch of tech startups that I am mentoring (at an incubator) next week.
- Have a bunch of fun trips booked for this year. The only real constraint we have is my wife's work schedule.
- Finished a big portfolio rebalancing - I posted about this recently. Thanks to my inheritance and wife's RSUs vesting, we are rapidly reaching ridiculous levels of "beyond" :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on March 22, 2023, 12:18:34 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 22, 2023, 09:19:22 AM

...
- Started doing some embedded programming on Arduino and ESP32. I am blown away at how good the development environment and tools are for these devices. I am cooking up some robotics projects that I will start on.
...

It is crazy awesome how simple it is to get right into things and start writing powerful code that does pretty neat stuff. I mean, running even a pedestrian 80MHz clock means there is essentially no need for even a lick of code optimization, just let it burn. Interrupts? Nah, I will just poll every pin, be right back in a microsecond, you won't miss anything.

I tip my hat to those folks who are developing these tools and ports and libraries and so on and putting them out there for me to stumble through.

And the cost of the hardware barely registers as a hurdle.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on March 22, 2023, 01:45:45 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 13, 2023, 07:43:01 AM

Here's hoping that the sharks in this group have a nice pile of dry powder.  Looks like opportunities are headed our way to start dripping in to equities...

I've been putting a bit of dry powder to work over the past week or so, including today.   Held off on a bit until after the Fed announcement today in the event it was another zinger, but seems the market was already expecting the .25% increase.   I've just been buying IVV and RSP.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 23, 2023, 01:44:08 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 22, 2023, 09:19:22 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 21, 2023, 11:17:46 PM

Hey anybody alive in here?

Raises hand - Yup I'm here. It's now exactly two and half years since I retired. What have I been up to recently?

- I just gave a guest lecture on software engineering for a class that a friend teaches at a university. This was a lot more fun than I expected. The kids were engaged and asked good question.
- I joined a model train club last year and am having a lot of fun working on club projects.
- Started doing some embedded programming on Arduino and ESP32. I am blown away at how good the development environment and tools are for these devices. I am cooking up some robotics projects that I will start on.
- I will be meeting a bunch of tech startups that I am mentoring (at an incubator) next week.
- Have a bunch of fun trips booked for this year. The only real constraint we have is my wife's work schedule.
- Finished a big portfolio rebalancing - I posted about this recently. Thanks to my inheritance and wife's RSUs vesting, we are rapidly reaching ridiculous levels of "beyond" :-)

Absolutely!!

I'm not sure if and when we'll reach the beyond.  We keep bouncing back and forth across the 3M line.  Once the Fed is done, I'm hoping to pass that point forever.
Keep living the good life you've earned.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 23, 2023, 04:18:59 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on March 22, 2023, 12:18:34 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 22, 2023, 09:19:22 AM

...
- Started doing some embedded programming on Arduino and ESP32. I am blown away at how good the development environment and tools are for these devices. I am cooking up some robotics projects that I will start on.
...

It is crazy awesome how simple it is to get right into things and start writing powerful code that does pretty neat stuff. I mean, running even a pedestrian 80MHz clock means there is essentially no need for even a lick of code optimization, just let it burn. Interrupts? Nah, I will just poll every pin, be right back in a microsecond, you won't miss anything.

I tip my hat to those folks who are developing these tools and ports and libraries and so on and putting them out there for me to stumble through.

And the cost of the hardware barely registers as a hurdle.

Exactly! There is so just much amazing inexpensive stuff out there. I have created a very well equipped electronics lab in my basement for less than a thousand dollars. The only limit to what you can do is your creativity.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 23, 2023, 09:04:02 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 23, 2023, 04:18:59 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on March 22, 2023, 12:18:34 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 22, 2023, 09:19:22 AM

...
- Started doing some embedded programming on Arduino and ESP32. I am blown away at how good the development environment and tools are for these devices. I am cooking up some robotics projects that I will start on.
...

It is crazy awesome how simple it is to get right into things and start writing powerful code that does pretty neat stuff. I mean, running even a pedestrian 80MHz clock means there is essentially no need for even a lick of code optimization, just let it burn. Interrupts? Nah, I will just poll every pin, be right back in a microsecond, you won't miss anything.

I tip my hat to those folks who are developing these tools and ports and libraries and so on and putting them out there for me to stumble through.

And the cost of the hardware barely registers as a hurdle.

Exactly! There is so just much amazing inexpensive stuff out there. I have created a very well equipped electronics lab in my basement for less than a thousand dollars. The only limit to what you can do is your creativity.

You guys are inspiring.  However, in my case it would be to restore my old Sears Silvertone tube guitar amp.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on March 27, 2023, 06:28:42 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 23, 2023, 09:04:02 AM

You guys are inspiring.  However, in my case it would be to restore my old Sears Silvertone tube guitar amp.

You say "my" which sort of implies that it was working for some amount of time? Full stop? Malfunction? Or simply that your skills and or hearing have degraded? ;-)

I assure you that I can be of almost zero help, but after a quick web search it's intriguing. Normally a little probing with a meter you can start to isolate the problem.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 27, 2023, 09:44:18 AM

When see postings like this (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-swr-is-safe-in-your-late-30's/) I realize what a late starter I was compared to most people here!
- I was nearly 30 when I started real work after 6 years in grad school.
- We had our kids relatively late - I was forty when my younger kid was born
- I only learned about FIRE only in 2018

And yet I was able to retire in 2020.

What compensated for the late start:
- Was well paid (but nothing like what the FAANGs pay nowadays)
- Saved aggressively and started investing early
- By some miracle avoided getting laid off in 2009
- Hit the jackpot a few years later when my field (AI/ML) suddenly became hot
- Lived in the same house for over 25 years.
- Kids were sensible enough to go to relatively lower cost state universities

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on March 28, 2023, 09:43:43 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 21, 2023, 11:17:46 PM

Hey anybody alive in here?  Last week I did a 40 confined space rope rescue class.  Got my grade back, 94%.  Not bad right?  Well, there is a 6% chance that I might drop you. 👨‍🚒🪢

I just completed a 3 day two night backpacking trip.  I made 50 miles.  Holy shit I'm sore.  AT is in about 7 weeks.  Got to keep working hard.  Night y'all.

Still here, but busy enjoying the FIREd life!

Traveling through Chile at the moment, with a week to go after two weeks in the Atacama Desert, the Elqui Valley, and the Lake District (with a side trip to the Chiloé Islands).  We’ll wrap things up in Santiago and the wine regions near it before heading back home for April.

Have an awesome AT adventure!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 28, 2023, 10:27:04 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 21, 2023, 11:17:46 PM

Hey anybody alive in here? 

Not to be Debbie Downer, but a couple of weeks ago, a routine mammogram turned not routine in a hurry. Then a killer hot flash knocked me to the floor in the middle of the night. Now I'm crabbing around like a very old lady, while contemplating cancer treatment options and hobbling to medical appointments with a cane. Fortunately,  the cancer was caught early. There's plenty to worry about right now, but I am so thankful that money is not. Being in this cohort means this is just something to get through and not something that will destroy us financially.

PSA: Get your routine tests done, fellow mustachians!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 28, 2023, 01:33:59 PM

Here, but going back to work 20 hours a week for my former employer to hold onto the stash while paying for 4 years of extra college costs. My plan is to work for three years so I can “retire” officially again at 55 and access the 401(k) I have spent years building. It gives us flexibility for $ planning. The partner I will be working for is also on the 3 year plan, so I don’t have to worry about him getting angry when I retire.

They offer unlimited PTO, but 6 weeks is what my level is expected to use “on average”. That’s plenty of time for visiting family and friends for now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on March 28, 2023, 03:14:41 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 28, 2023, 10:27:04 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 21, 2023, 11:17:46 PM

Hey anybody alive in here? 

Not to be Debbie Downer, but a couple of weeks ago, a routine mammogram turned not routine in a hurry. Then a killer hot flash knocked me to the floor in the middle of the night. Now I'm crabbing around like a very old lady, while contemplating cancer treatment options and hobbling to medical appointments with a cane. Fortunately,  the cancer was caught early. There's plenty to worry about right now, but I am so thankful that money is not. Being in this cohort means this is just something to get through and not something that will destroy us financially.

PSA: Get your routine tests done, fellow mustachians!

I am so sorry to hear this, @Dicey.   Wishing you all the best and positivity as you embark on this journey!   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 28, 2023, 09:57:25 PM

Good Luck with your treatment dicey and I’m glad things were caught early.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 29, 2023, 07:38:57 AM

Dicey, I hope all the treatment decisions match up with what you think is best for you, and while cancer sucks, you are absolutely right that money relieves part of the stress.  Heading in for a checkup myself on 4/11 thanks to the nudge. 

Always a message or phone call away - it was good to hear your voice over the weekend!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on March 29, 2023, 09:51:18 AM

Don't post much but still truckin' along over here.

Briefly toyed with the idea of applying for a couple of jobs in the horticulture/community gardening space, but after a close call with jury duty on a trial that would have lasted over 2 weeks realized there is no way I am ready/willing to give up my total freedom from somebody else's schedule, even for good pay in a sector I spend lots of time volunteering in. 

We are waiting for DD to make her final college selection -- she got accepted to UW pre-engineering and just got a great financial aid offer yesterday so I am guessing that is where she will end up.  Makes life much simpler if she stays in town.

Oh, had another slice taken off my nose on Monday -- probably nothing but since I had a Basal Cell Carcinoma removed nearby a couple of years ago the dermatologist wanted to biopsy the unusual spot to be safe.  Thankfully other recent checks (mammogram, colon screening) have been clear.  Thinking of you as you deal with your diagnosis, @Dicey!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 30, 2023, 11:14:28 AM

Quote from: couponvan on March 28, 2023, 01:33:59 PM

Here, but going back to work 20 hours a week for my former employer to hold onto the stash while paying for 4 years of extra college costs. My plan is to work for three years so I can “retire” officially again at 55 and access the 401(k) I have spent years building. It gives us flexibility for $ planning. The partner I will be working for is also on the 3 year plan, so I don’t have to worry about him getting angry when I retire.

They offer unlimited PTO, but 6 weeks is what my level is expected to use “on average”. That’s plenty of time for visiting family and friends for now.

I'm in a similar boat. Planning to FIRE sometime this summer, but open to the possibility to work more, depending on where we end up with college costs.

@lhamo - congrats to your daughter! Yes, a lot is up in the air on our side, until we know where our kids are going to college, and how much it will cost.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 30, 2023, 11:15:22 AM

@Dicey - good thoughts to you. And, thanks for the reminder. I also need to schedule a mammogram.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Allie on March 30, 2023, 11:20:05 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 28, 2023, 10:27:04 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 21, 2023, 11:17:46 PM

Hey anybody alive in here? 

Not to be Debbie Downer, but a couple of weeks ago, a routine mammogram turned not routine in a hurry. Then a killer hot flash knocked me to the floor in the middle of the night. Now I'm crabbing around like a very old lady, while contemplating cancer treatment options and hobbling to medical appointments with a cane. Fortunately,  the cancer was caught early. There's plenty to worry about right now, but I am so thankful that money is not. Being in this cohort means this is just something to get through and not something that will destroy us financially.

PSA: Get your routine tests done, fellow mustachians!

I’m so sorry to hear about everything that’s been going on.  I’m sending all the internet good vibes I can! 

Reading this did spur me to schedule my first mammogram, which I had been putting off for a year and a half. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rockstache on March 30, 2023, 01:04:54 PM

Quote from: Allie on March 30, 2023, 11:20:05 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 28, 2023, 10:27:04 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 21, 2023, 11:17:46 PM

Hey anybody alive in here? 

Not to be Debbie Downer, but a couple of weeks ago, a routine mammogram turned not routine in a hurry. Then a killer hot flash knocked me to the floor in the middle of the night. Now I'm crabbing around like a very old lady, while contemplating cancer treatment options and hobbling to medical appointments with a cane. Fortunately,  the cancer was caught early. There's plenty to worry about right now, but I am so thankful that money is not. Being in this cohort means this is just something to get through and not something that will destroy us financially.

PSA: Get your routine tests done, fellow mustachians!

I’m so sorry to hear about everything that’s been going on.  I’m sending all the internet good vibes I can! 

Reading this did spur me to schedule my first mammogram, which I had been putting off for a year and a half.

I just had my first in the last few months and it was not nearly as uncomfortable as I had heard. I think this varies by individual but I was relieved to know that it doesn't necessarily have to be terrible. Best of luck!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 30, 2023, 06:50:36 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 28, 2023, 10:27:04 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 21, 2023, 11:17:46 PM

Hey anybody alive in here? 

Not to be Debbie Downer, but a couple of weeks ago, a routine mammogram turned not routine in a hurry. Then a killer hot flash knocked me to the floor in the middle of the night. Now I'm crabbing around like a very old lady, while contemplating cancer treatment options and hobbling to medical appointments with a cane. Fortunately,  the cancer was caught early. There's plenty to worry about right now, but I am so thankful that money is not. Being in this cohort means this is just something to get through and not something that will destroy us financially.

PSA: Get your routine tests done, fellow mustachians!

I hate hearing this.  I know you'll kick ass though.  Hope that treatment isn't painful and the dreaded C goes away quickly.
Went through leukemia with our son at 14.  He's a college graduate and works for the local TV station now.  Keep in touch.
We love you Dicey.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 30, 2023, 10:27:03 PM

Awww, you all are warming my heart. In order not to derail this thread with details beyond the joy of being FIRE in this situation, I'll post updates in my journal. There's a link in my siggy line below. You can peek in on pg. 76, no need to wade through the previous 75 pages of drivel. Thanks again for the caring messages. They really are helpful.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on April 01, 2023, 06:17:56 AM

Will check it out Dicey and I maintain that you a writer / storyteller at heart, so I will look forward to it!

Anyone else thankful for a good start to 2023??  Its been a slog (for those of us who are not FIRE'd yet), so rewarding to pick up a little tailwind from the markets rather than more headwind.  Just did my quarterly check - $2.25 invested; $2.75 net worth.  Still not at my high water mark for invested assets, but getting closer, and the net worth is a new high water mark (by a nose!).  S&P still off its high by ~14% and NASDAQ off ~24% according to my math.

Still off track from where I wanted to be, but I'm not letting that impact my thinking around timing too much.  I'm still thinking 56.  All the talk about Social Security is a bit troubling....given that we've been taxed on a total of nearly $3M of earnings over the working years -- would love to see a PV calc on that (but I'm too lazy to do it)!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 01, 2023, 10:51:01 AM

Quote from: arcturus on April 01, 2023, 06:17:56 AM

...
All the talk about Social Security is a bit troubling....given that we've been taxed on a total of nearly $3M of earnings over the working years -- would love to see a PV calc on that (but I'm too lazy to do it)!

Yeah, Social Security is becoming a crisis - the trust fund is running out in 10 years and it's not even really being discussed!  Congress is still trying to get the conversation started on the looming debt ceiling...  I don't have much optimism we'll see a gradual, well executed plan to save it in its current form.  Most likely the maximum contribution limit will move up, further pissing off the wealthy.  I'm OK with the benefit cuts to be honest, as long as I don't have to pay more in to the system.  If the taxable cap moves up from the current $160k, it'll be just one more reason to be happy to ER.  The expiration of tax cuts in 2025 could also suck.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 01, 2023, 05:39:21 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 01, 2023, 10:51:01 AM

Quote from: arcturus on April 01, 2023, 06:17:56 AM

...
All the talk about Social Security is a bit troubling....given that we've been taxed on a total of nearly $3M of earnings over the working years -- would love to see a PV calc on that (but I'm too lazy to do it)!

Yeah, Social Security is becoming a crisis - the trust fund is running out in 10 years and it's not even really being discussed!  Congress is still trying to get the conversation started on the looming debt ceiling...  I don't have much optimism we'll see a gradual, well executed plan to save it in its current form.  Most likely the maximum contribution limit will move up, further pissing off the wealthy.  I'm OK with the benefit cuts to be honest, as long as I don't have to pay more in to the system.  If the taxable cap moves up from the current $160k, it'll be just one more reason to be happy to ER.  The expiration of tax cuts in 2025 could also suck.

In these inflationary times, it seems common sense to bump up the cap.  I do believe there are more poor folks on SS who vote than the wealthy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 01, 2023, 06:42:51 PM

The cap moves up by inflation each year (from 147k to 160k, 2022 to 2023, for instance).  I am complaining that we'll get some crazy last minute save like removing the cap altogether...  Sucky for workers and businesses, and extra sucky for the self employed that pay the full 12.4%.  Probably getting too political, I just hope we start hearing reasonable solutions being debated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on April 02, 2023, 07:31:19 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 01, 2023, 06:42:51 PM

The cap moves up by inflation each year (from 147k to 160k, 2022 to 2023, for instance).  I am complaining that we'll get some crazy last minute save like removing the cap altogether...  Sucky for workers and businesses, and extra sucky for the self employed that pay the full 12.4%.  Probably getting too political, I just hope we start hearing reasonable solutions being debated.

I’m still somewhat surprised immigration reform hasn’t been discussed more to increase the tax base.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on April 02, 2023, 07:31:28 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 01, 2023, 06:42:51 PM

The cap moves up by inflation each year (from 147k to 160k, 2022 to 2023, for instance).  I am complaining that we'll get some crazy last minute save like removing the cap altogether...  Sucky for workers and businesses, and extra sucky for the self employed that pay the full 12.4%.  Probably getting too political, I just hope we start hearing reasonable solutions being debated.

I’m still somewhat surprised immigration reform hasn’t been discussed more to increase the tax base.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 02, 2023, 07:49:58 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on April 02, 2023, 07:31:28 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 01, 2023, 06:42:51 PM

The cap moves up by inflation each year (from 147k to 160k, 2022 to 2023, for instance).  I am complaining that we'll get some crazy last minute save like removing the cap altogether...  Sucky for workers and businesses, and extra sucky for the self employed that pay the full 12.4%.  Probably getting too political, I just hope we start hearing reasonable solutions being debated.

I’m still somewhat surprised immigration reform hasn’t been discussed more to increase the tax base.

Because bigotry is more important than money to the base.   

And illegals make compliant and cheap workers, the very opposite of those with FU money, so the monied interests that benefit from that like it that way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on April 02, 2023, 08:46:09 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 02, 2023, 07:49:58 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on April 02, 2023, 07:31:28 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 01, 2023, 06:42:51 PM

The cap moves up by inflation each year (from 147k to 160k, 2022 to 2023, for instance).  I am complaining that we'll get some crazy last minute save like removing the cap altogether...  Sucky for workers and businesses, and extra sucky for the self employed that pay the full 12.4%.  Probably getting too political, I just hope we start hearing reasonable solutions being debated.

I’m still somewhat surprised immigration reform hasn’t been discussed more to increase the tax base.

Because bigotry is more important than money to the base.   

And illegals make compliant and cheap workers, the very opposite of those with FU money, so the monied interests that benefit from that like it that way.

I do think tho at the end of the day people vote their pocket books, even tho we can point to situations where that isn’t the case. So if the base’s social security becomes truly threatened, it would be interesting to see how fast minds can change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 02, 2023, 04:05:36 PM

Along the lines of "is anyone still alive in here".

Sure am.. I have been setting up my lathe and mill in my shop.

Went back to work for 10 months in 2022 and can now live for 2 to 3 years on the proceeds (also maxxed out 401k and HSA savings of course).

Investments peaked around $3.2 to 3.4M (not counting the earned income) at roughly 70/30 stock/bond ETF's . I assume I fell below the $3M mark during the pullback but I never checked aand still don't know where we are today.

The cool thing is it really doesn't matter.. in 2021 we bought a spendy SUV and last year spent more money on my lathe/mill than I did on my first house. But still had a WR of less than 1.5% (guess)!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 02, 2023, 05:28:36 PM

We just celebrated our 40th wedding anniversary on 1-April.   Well, all week, actually.  :)

Forgot to do our monthly NW check at the end of February.   Had an expensive 2 months in Feb and March.
Had to replace an HVAC in the house.   Bought an expensive printing press and accoutrements.  A bunch of copper for etching, printing and enameling.  Gobs of books.

Net worth is about the same as it was at the end of January.  :) 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 02, 2023, 07:08:27 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 02, 2023, 04:05:36 PM

Along the lines of "is anyone still alive in here".

Sure am.. I have been setting up my lathe and mill in my shop.

Went back to work for 10 months in 2022 and can now live for 2 to 3 years on the proceeds (also maxxed out 401k and HSA savings of course).

Investments peaked around $3.2 to 3.4M (not counting the earned income) at roughly 70/30 stock/bond ETF's . I assume I fell below the $3M mark during the pullback but I never checked aand still don't know where we are today.

The cool thing is it really doesn't matter.. in 2021 we bought a spendy SUV and last year spent more money on my lathe/mill than I did on my first house. But still had a WR of less than 1.5% (guess)!

In your case, it probably doesn't.  In a year you can get Social Security if money gets tight.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 02, 2023, 09:52:45 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 02, 2023, 07:08:27 PM

In your case, it probably doesn't.  In a year you can get Social Security if money gets tight.

Yeah with a withdrawal rate of 1.5% I might need SS to keep the wolves from the door...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 02, 2023, 10:50:30 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 02, 2023, 09:52:45 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 02, 2023, 07:08:27 PM

In your case, it probably doesn't.  In a year you can get Social Security if money gets tight.

Yeah with a withdrawal rate of 1.5% I might need SS to keep the wolves from the door...:)

Yeah, I can almost hear them howling...[Insert eyeroll here.]

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 03, 2023, 09:27:34 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 02, 2023, 09:52:45 PM

Quote from: pecunia on April 02, 2023, 07:08:27 PM

In your case, it probably doesn't.  In a year you can get Social Security if money gets tight.

Yeah with a withdrawal rate of 1.5% I might need SS to keep the wolves from the door...:)

I actually looked.  They do have a small pack of wolves in Oregon.  However, they are South of Pullman so You should be safe.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 03, 2023, 11:12:40 AM

2023 is working out to be an incredible year!  My wife is elated her LSU Lady Tigers won the national championship yesterday.  My wife made every home game in Baton Rouge and also traveled to many away games. She's hardly been home this last week.  She's relaxing now after driving home from Dallas. 
She was concerned about the cost of the traveling, airline tickets, game tickets.  I assured her we could afford it.  I told her she has worked and saved decades for this privilege.  Go and live that moment!  Have that excitement!
The stock market has made incredible gains lately.  Will it stay up?  Who knows.  We've almost reached the point personally of being recession proof.  I'm pension eligible this summer.  I may only have 20 more shifts at work.  I'm in better physical shape than since the pandemic.  I'm back up to 50 mile bicycle days and 20 mile hiking days.  Honestly I think 2024 will be even better.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on April 03, 2023, 11:28:19 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 03, 2023, 11:12:40 AM

...
 My wife is elated her LSU Lady Tigers won the national championship yesterday.  My wife made every home game in Baton Rouge and also traveled to many away games.
...

The shooting was incredible. I am in Hawkeye land, so was pulling the other direction. But the LSU shooting....simply lights out. Very impressive. Fun that both teams were there for the first time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 03, 2023, 12:02:08 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on April 03, 2023, 11:28:19 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 03, 2023, 11:12:40 AM

...
 My wife is elated her LSU Lady Tigers won the national championship yesterday.  My wife made every home game in Baton Rouge and also traveled to many away games.
...

The shooting was incredible. I am in Hawkeye land, so was pulling the other direction. But the LSU shooting....simply lights out. Very impressive. Fun that both teams were there for the first time.

I think LSU can thank the Hawkeye's for beating South Carolina.  LSU played beyond their talent yesterday.  I'm just not sure they could have mentally overcome South Carolina.  It's been an exciting year for women's basketball overall.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on April 03, 2023, 06:12:32 PM

As soon as my Purdue Boilermakers lost in the first round, I tuned out all tournament play, both men’s and women’s

Net worth is getting closer back to all time high of 3.15m. I look at the stupid thing every day, but more because I’m so ready to retire. But wanna get through phase II of house upgrades this year.

I turn 50 in June 2024, and I always said I’d retire by then. We shall see if it really happens.

Jealous to hear all these stories of y’all jumping around the country living your best life yet.


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 03, 2023, 06:16:08 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on April 03, 2023, 06:12:32 PM

As soon as my Purdue Boilermakers lost in the first round, I tuned out all tournament play, both men’s and women’s

Net worth is getting closer back to all time high of 3.15m. I look at the stupid thing every day, but more because I’m so ready to retire. But wanna get through phase II of house upgrades this year.

I turn 50 in June 2024, and I always said I’d retire by then. We shall see if it really happens.

Jealous to hear all these stories of y’all jumping around the country living your best life yet.

You could be doing it too...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on April 04, 2023, 06:54:31 AM

Saw a Yahoo article today "Workers must plan on Social Security shortfall when retirement planning, advisers say" and found it interesting in light of the recent discussion here.  It shows, by generation, how much of people's planned retirement income is coming from various sources, including (of course) Social Security.  I'll net it for you:  Baby Boomers - 40% from SS, Gen X - 25%, Millennials - 17%; Gen Z - 16%.   I (being a Gen X'er) thought to myself, "I must be depending on far less for social security in my plan than the average,"  then I did the math on my spreadsheet and damn if it didn't come up at 24-25% over the course of my planning horizon.  I need to internalize that a bit, but my first reaction to that is to be concerned that I'm depending on too much from Social Security.    I suppose its offset by the rest of my relatively conservative assumptions elsewhere, but  hmmmm....

Ah, just realized I made the classic math blunder of dividing by the remainder of my income (other than SS) rather than dividing by the total (SS + all other sources).....so I get a slightly better result, right around 20%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on April 04, 2023, 08:02:25 AM

Quote from: Dicey on April 03, 2023, 06:16:08 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on April 03, 2023, 06:12:32 PM

As soon as my Purdue Boilermakers lost in the first round, I tuned out all tournament play, both men’s and women’s

Net worth is getting closer back to all time high of 3.15m. I look at the stupid thing every day, but more because I’m so ready to retire. But wanna get through phase II of house upgrades this year.

I turn 50 in June 2024, and I always said I’d retire by then. We shall see if it really happens.

Jealous to hear all these stories of y’all jumping around the country living your best life yet.

You could be doing it too...

Yes the question is my ship is closing into the shore of retirement island (age 55) when all my deferred comp kicks in. So how close does the boat need to approach before I jump into my life boat and paddle ashore. Or do I let the big ship called my job carry me all the way


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on April 04, 2023, 10:03:56 AM

Quote from: arcturus on April 04, 2023, 06:54:31 AM

Saw a Yahoo article today "Workers must plan on Social Security shortfall when retirement planning, advisers say" and found it interesting in light of the recent discussion here.  It shows, by generation, how much of people's planned retirement income is coming from various sources, including (of course) Social Security.  I'll net it for you:  Baby Boomers - 40% from SS, Gen X - 25%, Millennials - 17%; Gen Z - 16%.   I (being a Gen X'er) thought to myself, "I must be depending on far less for social security in my plan than the average,"  then I did the math on my spreadsheet and damn if it didn't come up at 24-25% over the course of my planning horizon.  I need to internalize that a bit, but my first reaction to that is to be concerned that I'm depending on too much from Social Security.    I suppose its offset by the rest of my relatively conservative assumptions elsewhere, but  hmmmm....

Ah, just realized I made the classic math blunder of dividing by the remainder of my income (other than SS) rather than dividing by the total (SS + all other sources).....so I get a slightly better result, right around 20%.

I probably am also relying on it “too much” as a Gen-xer, but as long as it’s there if worse case scenario I run out of assets (so means tested). I’d be okay with it being more “true insurance”. For some reason I’m really not sweating all the social security gloom and doom.

I still think immigration reform could come out of the wood work to increase the tax base.


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Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on April 04, 2023, 12:24:10 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on April 04, 2023, 10:03:56 AM

Quote from: arcturus on April 04, 2023, 06:54:31 AM

Saw a Yahoo article today "Workers must plan on Social Security shortfall when retirement planning, advisers say" and found it interesting in light of the recent discussion here.  It shows, by generation, how much of people's planned retirement income is coming from various sources, including (of course) Social Security.  I'll net it for you:  Baby Boomers - 40% from SS, Gen X - 25%, Millennials - 17%; Gen Z - 16%.   I (being a Gen X'er) thought to myself, "I must be depending on far less for social security in my plan than the average,"  then I did the math on my spreadsheet and damn if it didn't come up at 24-25% over the course of my planning horizon.  I need to internalize that a bit, but my first reaction to that is to be concerned that I'm depending on too much from Social Security.    I suppose its offset by the rest of my relatively conservative assumptions elsewhere, but  hmmmm....

Ah, just realized I made the classic math blunder of dividing by the remainder of my income (other than SS) rather than dividing by the total (SS + all other sources).....so I get a slightly better result, right around 20%.

I probably am also relying on it “too much” as a Gen-xer, but as long as it’s there if worse case scenario I run out of assets (so means tested). I’d be okay with it being more “true insurance”. For some reason I’m really not sweating all the social security gloom and doom.

I still think immigration reform could come out of the wood work to increase the tax base.


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Yeah, you make a good point and, even if the means test fails, there is room to either cut back on discretionary spend and/or tap home equity as needed....so perhaps relax is good advice.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 04, 2023, 09:08:44 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on April 04, 2023, 10:03:56 AM

Quote from: arcturus on April 04, 2023, 06:54:31 AM

Saw a Yahoo article today "Workers must plan on Social Security shortfall when retirement planning, advisers say" and found it interesting in light of the recent discussion here.  It shows, by generation, how much of people's planned retirement income is coming from various sources, including (of course) Social Security.  I'll net it for you:  Baby Boomers - 40% from SS, Gen X - 25%, Millennials - 17%; Gen Z - 16%.   I (being a Gen X'er) thought to myself, "I must be depending on far less for social security in my plan than the average,"  then I did the math on my spreadsheet and damn if it didn't come up at 24-25% over the course of my planning horizon.  I need to internalize that a bit, but my first reaction to that is to be concerned that I'm depending on too much from Social Security.    I suppose its offset by the rest of my relatively conservative assumptions elsewhere, but  hmmmm....

Ah, just realized I made the classic math blunder of dividing by the remainder of my income (other than SS) rather than dividing by the total (SS + all other sources).....so I get a slightly better result, right around 20%.

I probably am also relying on it “too much” as a Gen-xer, but as long as it’s there if worse case scenario I run out of assets (so means tested). I’d be okay with it being more “true insurance”. For some reason I’m really not sweating all the social security gloom and doom.

I still think immigration reform could come out of the wood work to increase the tax base.


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I’m a younger Gen X who apparently thinks more like a Millennial/Gen Z on Social security I get 16%.  I’m not totally surprised.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 04, 2023, 09:57:44 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on April 04, 2023, 09:08:44 PM

Quote from: rmorris50 on April 04, 2023, 10:03:56 AM

Quote from: arcturus on April 04, 2023, 06:54:31 AM

Saw a Yahoo article today "Workers must plan on Social Security shortfall when retirement planning, advisers say" and found it interesting in light of the recent discussion here.  It shows, by generation, how much of people's planned retirement income is coming from various sources, including (of course) Social Security.  I'll net it for you:  Baby Boomers - 40% from SS, Gen X - 25%, Millennials - 17%; Gen Z - 16%.   I (being a Gen X'er) thought to myself, "I must be depending on far less for social security in my plan than the average,"  then I did the math on my spreadsheet and damn if it didn't come up at 24-25% over the course of my planning horizon.  I need to internalize that a bit, but my first reaction to that is to be concerned that I'm depending on too much from Social Security.    I suppose its offset by the rest of my relatively conservative assumptions elsewhere, but  hmmmm....

Ah, just realized I made the classic math blunder of dividing by the remainder of my income (other than SS) rather than dividing by the total (SS + all other sources).....so I get a slightly better result, right around 20%.

I probably am also relying on it “too much” as a Gen-xer, but as long as it’s there if worse case scenario I run out of assets (so means tested). I’d be okay with it being more “true insurance”. For some reason I’m really not sweating all the social security gloom and doom.

I still think immigration reform could come out of the wood work to increase the tax base.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m a younger Gen X who apparently thinks more like a Millennial/Gen Z on Social security I get 16%.  I’m not totally surprised.

If the Social Security rules stay the same, the other thing you need to determine is when to draw it.  At 62 you get about 70 percent, at 67 you get 100 percent and if you live to 70 years of age you can get 129 percent.  I called the Social Security office and spoke with an official.  I liked him.  He told me all sorts of horror stories of people who deferred the money and died.  He also said, "The government is banking on you dying."

Of course, they always change the rules.  I wouldn't be surprised if they push the retirement age up to give better odds for Uncle Sam.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 05, 2023, 05:02:06 AM

I FIREd for all of a month and then was sucked back in by a former co-worker with a new opportunity.  I knew the hourly pay would be great and terms flexible so have been determined to make this the 'early retirement job' I always knew would be best for me to stay connected and mentally challenged and give it a real shot.  I work 3 days a week, 5 hours a day, from home, precisely when the kids are at school those 3 days.  I'm going to try really hard to hold firm on that schedule (I know this will be difficult), and to that end set my available meeting hours to that, keep reminding everyone of that as things come up outside of those hours, stay off my work laptop when outside of those hours and, most importantly, keep the  company email off my phone.  My supervisor knows they can call/text me for emergencies and thats the only way I'll even see it.

The pay should work out to about what we spend which is nice of course, and some of the projects planned are things I'm pretty good at and some interesting things I'd like to try.  I'm just gonna see how it goes.   Kicking off FIRE I was confident in my nest egg so I know I can always pull the plug if it isn't all its cracked up to be.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 05, 2023, 06:35:32 AM

Quote from: pecunia on April 01, 2023, 05:39:21 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 01, 2023, 10:51:01 AM

Quote from: arcturus on April 01, 2023, 06:17:56 AM

...
All the talk about Social Security is a bit troubling....given that we've been taxed on a total of nearly $3M of earnings over the working years -- would love to see a PV calc on that (but I'm too lazy to do it)!

Yeah, Social Security is becoming a crisis - the trust fund is running out in 10 years and it's not even really being discussed!  Congress is still trying to get the conversation started on the looming debt ceiling...  I don't have much optimism we'll see a gradual, well executed plan to save it in its current form.  Most likely the maximum contribution limit will move up, further pissing off the wealthy.  I'm OK with the benefit cuts to be honest, as long as I don't have to pay more in to the system.  If the taxable cap moves up from the current $160k, it'll be just one more reason to be happy to ER.  The expiration of tax cuts in 2025 could also suck.

In these inflationary times, it seems common sense to bump up the cap.  I do believe there are more poor folks on SS who vote than the wealthy.

Unless I'm misunderstanding how it all works, I don't really know how increasing the cap has ever or will ever fix the problem, as though you're increasing receipts you're also increasing liabilities for that higher amount.  I guess there could be another bend point added to reduce those liabilities.  But in the end, because its been done before without a lot of hubbub, i'm guessing they'll do something like the Additional Medicare tax (for earners) and the NIIT (for investors) where they'll pick a higher income level to add another tax to that will go to the SS fund but not be factored into the resulting payment responsibilities. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 05, 2023, 06:52:20 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 05, 2023, 05:02:06 AM

I FIREd for all of a month and then was sucked back in by a former co-worker with a new opportunity.  I knew the hourly pay would be great and terms flexible so have been determined to make this the 'early retirement job' I always knew would be best for me to stay connected and mentally challenged and give it a real shot.  I work 3 days a week, 5 hours a day, from home, precisely when the kids are at school those 3 days.  I'm going to try really hard to hold firm on that schedule (I know this will be difficult), and to that end set my available meeting hours to that, keep reminding everyone of that as things come up outside of those hours, stay off my work laptop when outside of those hours and, most importantly, keep the  company email off my phone.  My supervisor knows they can call/text me for emergencies and thats the only way I'll even see it.

One reason I have been able to resist the offers that have come my way is that I know that if I start do any work at all, I am just not able to disengage. So it's all or nothing for me. Even with all of the excitement in AI nowadays, I have been able to resist getting back into the fray. I am happy to just read academic papers and let others do the hard work.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on April 05, 2023, 07:12:22 AM

Quote from: pecunia on April 04, 2023, 09:57:44 PM

...
  He also said, "The government is banking on you dying."
...

Back before the pandemic sent me home full-time I used to always think when I saw someone outside our building smoking: "excellent, that strengthens the pension fund"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 05, 2023, 09:56:50 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 05, 2023, 06:52:20 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on April 05, 2023, 05:02:06 AM

I FIREd for all of a month and then was sucked back in by a former co-worker with a new opportunity.  I knew the hourly pay would be great and terms flexible so have been determined to make this the 'early retirement job' I always knew would be best for me to stay connected and mentally challenged and give it a real shot.  I work 3 days a week, 5 hours a day, from home, precisely when the kids are at school those 3 days.  I'm going to try really hard to hold firm on that schedule (I know this will be difficult), and to that end set my available meeting hours to that, keep reminding everyone of that as things come up outside of those hours, stay off my work laptop when outside of those hours and, most importantly, keep the  company email off my phone.  My supervisor knows they can call/text me for emergencies and thats the only way I'll even see it.

One reason I have been able to resist the offers that have come my way is that I know that if I start do any work at all, I am just not able to disengage. So it's all or nothing for me. Even with all of the excitement in AI nowadays, I have been able to resist getting back into the fray. I am happy to just read academic papers and let others do the hard work.

Understood.  I may have the same problem but knew this was the opportunity to find out given the offer to set it up however I wish when I first told them I probably was not interested.  Not having any team reporting to me for once I hope fixes most of that (as I'm not always juggling many projects for which i need to figure out how to staff and meet deadlines, etc.), and again just locking down access to just the 15 hours worked a week mainly by keeping it off my phone I'm hoping will do the trick.  We will find out!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 05, 2023, 03:06:20 PM

Tales from 3rd day back at work.  Yesterday the company announced 3 extra vacation days and bonuses for everyone who was hired before 3/31.  That's not me, but that's OK.  They are closed the whole week of 4th of July as well as the week between xmas and New Year.  Now Thanksgiving has the Wednesday off before, 6/19, and a day off one Friday in August for "health and wellness".  As long as I can keep my head down and not take on all the "extra" offered roles I should come out ahead on the whole "working to cash-flow college" deal.  This week is 8+ hour days for training, and let me tell you, I don't know how the regular people do full-time work.  You all are heros, as I am TIRED.

One more perk I forgot about - I also get $50 for my cell phone every month.  It's the little things that make me happy!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on April 05, 2023, 05:53:49 PM

Man, I’m disappointed in all of you on this thread that have either gone back to work or are still working. LOL.
Myself included.
After lots of hand wringing and back and forth I FIRED Aug of 2020.
March 2021 I took a little part time client who needed help because their CFO died of COVID. Then my former employer called asking for help, whatever hours I would give them. Then three more clients. Next thing I knew I’m working again. Mostly part time but some weeks it is full time to keep up with everyone. I don’t love it. I don’t hate it. Working as an independent contractor is better than full time as an employee for sure.
I do think the market drop influenced my choice to grab available work. I’m disappointed in myself for that. I had/have a plan for bear markets. We’ll be fine and I know it.
I’m not saving anything I make. I’m working hard to spend it all. We just did the basement remodel I was debating last year. The $25k budget turned into $45k in a hurry. But it’s so wonderful to be able to watch movies as a family and everyone has a place to sit and nobody is yelling “mom! He’s touching me!” “Mom! There is no place for my feet!” “Seat check!” “That’s my spot!!” Etc etc etc
This fall we start four years of $20k tuition and it’s probably not going to get cheaper for the next 10. So doing some work helps with that while the market is down. But I had a plan for that and it did NOT include working. Yet here I am!
I did just finish reading Die With Zero. That put a few things in perspective.

@Dicey - take care of yourself and kick cancers ass!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 05, 2023, 08:26:18 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on April 05, 2023, 05:53:49 PM

Man, I’m disappointed in all of you on this thread that have either gone back to work or are still working. LOL.

I'm studiously doing my part to not go back to work.

I've avoided being actively involved in several business opportunities.   Turned another one down in the last month.

I've written 200 pages for a story cycle since Halloween of last year.   Having a blast doing that!   When the creative juices dry up on this story cycle I'll start back up on the screen play I started a year ago.  (I set that aside when we took in a Ukrainian refugee last spring.)

I've learned a new art form, printmaking since last summer.   I now have a printmaking studio set up at my home. :)  I'm learning new ways of etching or marking metal so I can incorporate them into my enameling work.
Plus the printmaking is fun.

I've made a number of art pieces in the last year and they are getting better and better. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 06, 2023, 04:22:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on April 05, 2023, 08:26:18 PM

I've learned a new art form, printmaking since last summer.   I now have a printmaking studio set up at my home. :)  I'm learning new ways of etching or marking metal so I can incorporate them into my enameling work.
Plus the printmaking is fun.

I've made a number of art pieces in the last year and they are getting better and better.

That sample your posted looks gorgeous! I'd say that's great progress.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 06, 2023, 07:28:13 AM

I wish I had art skills!  That sample is gorgeous.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 06, 2023, 07:38:22 AM

Quote from: couponvan on April 06, 2023, 07:28:13 AM

I wish I had art skills!  That sample is gorgeous.

I have no natural talent.  I just have persistence.

Anyone with the persistence to reach FI can do as well as I am with art.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 06, 2023, 07:42:34 AM

Color version.   Took me many, many, many tries to get the colors, inking, and carving (mostly) right.

I'll do another carving based on what I learned on this one, which was a whole lot.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on April 06, 2023, 09:28:52 AM

A reminder for all of us working, myself included…(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230406/6c57ad94032f169e5f4a263cad0af8e3.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 06, 2023, 04:43:16 PM

@BeanCounter - I can relate to some of your challenges, though my path is a little different. I was aiming to FIRE at $2M, then $2.5M, then… well shortly we passed $3.5M and I couldn’t quite pull the trigger, but a different work opportunity presented itself, and now I’m a year into that. I’m enjoying it and working on keeping even keel and not taking on the stress. Since we are FIRE, though, and I’m choosing to work, I’m looking at the spending differently.

We’re still maxing out retirement accounts and driving old cars and not buying a vacation home, but that spendy trip we want to take? We’re taking it. Kids have sports out of town and it’s easier to spend the night? Get the hotel (or stay at sister’s house and buy them dinner). We still can’t spend all of our money, though, so there’s surplus. I have a friend that has brought us some equity opportunities in businesses, so we’ve shoveled some money into those. One is doing fantastic so far, the next is just getting started but shows promise. These are chunks of money that I couldn’t have imagined parting with for this even 5 years ago, but now I’m going into these knowing full well I may never see that money again… or I may get a 10x return over 5 years. And 10x would be kinda cool.

Anyway, FIRE means you have choices and can take risks or make life easier or just not stress about how you’re going to cover regular expenses after you get fired for giving the honest answer your boss doesn’t want to hear. (And guess what, if she’s any kind of a decent leader and human being, she wants honesty, even if it hurts… though it it’s too painful you might consider when and how and in front of whom you deliver it.) My point is that you, and everyone else in this club, has a choice, and simply having they choice makes it easier to absorb the stresses you’re willing to absorb, and to say no to those you won’t accept.  Whether you’re working or not.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on April 06, 2023, 07:04:41 PM

Wow, impressive @SwordGuy !!   So awesome to be able to exercise the creative side of the brain!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 09, 2023, 10:23:56 AM

Taking more steps towards retirement. Purchased a new Honda Pilot yesterday.  We'll pick it up in Florida in a week. Having a Florida home and Florida registered vehicle helps expedite Florida residence.  Probably will be moving in 2024.  Haven't figured out what if anything we'll do with the Louisiana property. Our grown children have no plans for moving.  Maybe we can strongarm them into paying some rent. I'm looking forward to spending time at the Florida house next weekend.  Haven't been there in three months. In five weeks I start the Appalachian Trail.  Happy Easter to you all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 10, 2023, 08:50:50 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 09, 2023, 10:23:56 AM

Taking more steps towards retirement. Purchased a new Honda Pilot yesterday.  We'll pick it up in Florida in a week. Having a Florida home and Florida registered vehicle helps expedite Florida residence.  Probably will be moving in 2024.  Haven't figured out what if anything we'll do with the Louisiana property. Our grown children have no plans for moving.  Maybe we can strongarm them into paying some rent. I'm looking forward to spending time at the Florida house next weekend.  Haven't been there in three months. In five weeks I start the Appalachian Trail.  Happy Easter to you all.

I hope you can report from the trail.  it would be interesting.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 10, 2023, 01:32:18 PM

Leaving your adult kids in the LA house sounds like what a lot of parents end up doing. Good luck collecting rent!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 12, 2023, 08:58:18 PM

Quote from: couponvan on April 10, 2023, 01:32:18 PM

Leaving your adult kids in the LA house sounds like what a lot of parents end up doing. Good luck collecting rent!

The little shits know our financial status.  Waiting for our death.  I'll show them!  I'll be moving further forward on aircraft and higher up on cruise ships!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on April 13, 2023, 08:57:48 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 12, 2023, 08:58:18 PM

Quote from: couponvan on April 10, 2023, 01:32:18 PM

Leaving your adult kids in the LA house sounds like what a lot of parents end up doing. Good luck collecting rent!

The little shits know our financial status.  Waiting for our death.  I'll show them!  I'll be moving further forward on aircraft and higher up on cruise ships!

First rule of MMM club - Never let the family know your financial status.  Haha...easier said than done, for sure!   Truthfully though, stealth wealth is the way for us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 18, 2023, 04:08:26 PM

According to this survey (https://www.henleyglobal.com/publications/wealthiest-cities), there are 340,000 HNWI (High Net Worth Individuals) in NY City. Their definition of HNWI is:

Quote

For our purposes ‘wealth’ refers to ‘investable wealth’, which includes property, cash, and listed company holdings

This number seems ridiculously low - since there are so many people with high salaries in the area, a million dollars seems like a very low threshold to designate someone as HNWI.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 18, 2023, 07:08:13 PM

So what is a HNWI worth???????

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 19, 2023, 03:37:10 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 18, 2023, 07:08:13 PM

So what is a HNWI worth???????

Oops I left out that part :-) They define a HNWI as a persons with over one million dollars (including property)

DQYDJ (https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-states/#How_many_US_households_had_1000000_or_more_in_2020) says that a million dollars net worth including home equity puts you in the 88th percentile which is over 15.3 million households.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on April 19, 2023, 05:36:01 AM

Somewhat weird methodology. They track 150,000 folks as part of the “service” they provide (????), focusing on the $10M and up. Then they rely on that database to generate the survey results, and looks at home prices. The error bars have to be several million people wide…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 19, 2023, 06:35:33 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 19, 2023, 03:37:10 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 18, 2023, 07:08:13 PM

So what is a HNWI worth???????

Oops I left out that part :-) They define a HNWI as a persons with over one million dollars (including property)

DQYDJ (https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-states/#How_many_US_households_had_1000000_or_more_in_2020) says that a million dollars net worth including home equity puts you in the 88th percentile which is over 15.3 million households.

Consistent with 2019 data on https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/?min_age=&max_age=&networth=1000000#results

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on April 19, 2023, 07:28:49 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 19, 2023, 03:37:10 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on April 18, 2023, 07:08:13 PM

So what is a HNWI worth???????

Oops I left out that part :-) They define a HNWI as a persons with over one million dollars (including property)

DQYDJ (https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-states/#How_many_US_households_had_1000000_or_more_in_2020) says that a million dollars net worth including home equity puts you in the 88th percentile which is over 15.3 million households.

They exclude personal residence(s), though… it’s only investable assets, so not counting home equity.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on April 21, 2023, 07:58:42 AM

So I got notified yesterday of my first direct inheritance in my life. It’s from my first boss out of college, very nice, gregarious guy. Never married or had kids. He gave me my break out of college. The past decade we kept in touch on social media but not much beyond that.

But here is where it gets interesting. The bank calls me yesterday to notify me I’ve been named, and to get the funds I have to fill out paper work, get it notarized, and return with a copy of my drivers license. And then he says the amount will be under $500, since the checking account has over 30 beneficiaries named and has about $14k in it. And the bank won’t release the funds until all beneficiaries have return the required paper work in proper order.

So obviously I am thankful this old boss remembered me, but I am amazed he named so many beneficiaries. And I don’t want to be the one that holds up this process so I’ll be getting this done ASAP. We shall see how prompt this entire bunch is.

The bank must silently be annoyed, but it’s their job. My spouse and I will have a nice dinner and bottle of wine in his memory.

I doubt my old boss thought or knew the process would be this complicated. Or maybe he did who knows. But I don’t think I’ll be naming so many beneficiaries on any of my accounts!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 21, 2023, 08:37:16 AM

Quote from: rmorris50 on April 21, 2023, 07:58:42 AM

So I got notified yesterday of my first direct inheritance in my life. It’s from my first boss out of college, very nice, gregarious guy. Never married or had kids. He gave me my break out of college. The past decade we kept in touch on social media but not much beyond that.

But here is where it gets interesting. The bank calls me yesterday to notify me I’ve been named, and to get the funds I have to fill out paper work, get it notarized, and return with a copy of my drivers license. And then he says the amount will be under $500, since the checking account has over 30 beneficiaries named and has about $14k in it. And the bank won’t release the funds until all beneficiaries have return the required paper work in proper order.

So obviously I am thankful this old boss remembered me, but I am amazed he named so many beneficiaries. And I don’t want to be the one that holds up this process so I’ll be getting this done ASAP. We shall see how prompt this entire bunch is.

The bank must silently be annoyed, but it’s their job. My spouse and I will have a nice dinner and bottle of wine in his memory.

I doubt my old boss thought or knew the process would be this complicated. Or maybe he did who knows. But I don’t think I’ll be naming so many beneficiaries on any of my accounts!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Interesting - I had an uncle that was a vault manager at a bank (olden days, right?) He was a sweet guy and very friendly, but not materialistic at all.  There were 4-5 bank clients that left him their money and safe-deposit assets because they had no family. He was the only person who was nice to them and chatted them up on the regular.  Can you imagine?  When he passed, his children were pretty surprised at his estate amount.  It still wasn't millions, but it wasn't $0 either!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on April 22, 2023, 06:35:34 AM

Very cool @rmorris50 -- even though the amount is small, you must have held a special place in their memory/heart.  Also can't help but feel a little sad for your former boss, who sounds like he may have been somewhat lonely in the end. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 03, 2023, 07:08:18 PM

My company just posted a job for my replacement's, replacement.  Looks like they are giving full consideration to the person I and other coworkers recommended.  I've given my replacement several training sessions already.  Since I've provided them with an end date, they have been surprisingly proactive.  Still feels strange watching a three decade career sunset.  Time to let a new generation take the reins.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on May 04, 2023, 08:23:20 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 03, 2023, 07:08:18 PM

My company just posted a job for my replacement's, replacement.  Looks like they are giving full consideration to the person I and other coworkers recommended.  I've given my replacement several training sessions already.  Since I've provided them with an end date, they have been surprisingly proactive.  Still feels strange watching a three decade career sunset.  Time to let a new generation take the reins.

You'll be on a remote stretch of the AT and think "oops, forgot one thing to tell them..." and then the next step forget all about it. Probably repeat four or five times in the first weeks, then you'll be fully weaned off.

It's great that they are taking proactive steps.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: baludon on May 04, 2023, 10:05:39 AM

Work didn't look for my replacement until a month before I retired earlier this year.  I haven't thought about how my office would deal with being short staffed.  Actually, I haven't thought about work since I retired.  Such a nice feeling.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 09, 2023, 05:06:22 PM

Warning: depressing post…..

After being a very active member of the [targeted] FIRE classes of 2018 and 2019 and mildly active in 2020, somehow after all these years I’m still working and still not sure when I’ll FIRE. But I still really want to as I don’t love my job, far from it.

Over the past 5 years our net worth has continued to grow quickly so no excuses there. Even if we are still a little shy of peak net worth in March 2022, after having a bad 2022 financially, we are in the beyond category of this thread.

So where has it all gone wrong??? A couple of stupid decisions has crippled our flexibility.

Selling our expensive inner city house and buying something cheaper was always a part of our FIRE plan.

Stupid decision 1: we bought a couple of acres of land rather than a new house. So now we can’t sell our inner city home until we build something on the acreage.
Stupid decision 2: we decided to build a fairly massive house on the land, far beyond our requirements. This was driven by a fear of undercapitalising, as all the neighbouring properties have big houses too,

We are now trying to get the new house built, but suffering some extended regulatory approval delays. So we are stuck with vacant land that is creating no value. Construction should finally start in the next month or 2 and we will end up with a house that is far more expensive than we should be having.

Instead of being FIRED we now find ourselves quite leveraged with 2 expensive, non income producing properties, rather than 1 cheap home.

We are nervous to FIRE until the new place is built and we can sell our current home so that we have investable cash rather than excessive debt servicing costs. We also don’t want to move home twice if avoidable.

I feel a bit silly to have put ourselves in this position and as much as we have considered changing course and stopping the planned build and selling the land, we just feel that ultimately we will be far better off suffering through the bad deck on making for the next 18 months or so until the build is complete and we can finally sell our inner city home and finally FIRE, some 6 years after the original target.

In the past 5 years I have aged a lot. It is yet to be seen whether the additional net worth we have accumulated since 2018 will make working the past 5 years a good or bad call.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 09, 2023, 08:20:17 PM

@itchyfeet why do you not want to move twice.  Moving is a pain, but it also forces one to confront how much crap they have in their lives.  I’ve moved every 4-5 years all my adult life.  I’m actually thankful for it.  It’s forced me to really evaluate what I want in a home.  The way you are talking about your future house makes me wonder if you are going to be disappointed with it 6 months after you move in because it doesn’t sound like what you actually want.  I’d say stop and rethink the whole thing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 09, 2023, 09:03:29 PM

We just moved back from Dubai to Australia and moved back into our old house, well 2 years ago now. We have settled back in and DW has a job that is a short walk from our house. We may end up FIREing, selling our house, putting everything back bro Storage and traveling for a bit until our new place is built. Either that or just work until the new house is built.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on May 10, 2023, 12:58:45 AM

fi(RE) isn't for everyone. That's ok.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on May 12, 2023, 05:37:58 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on May 09, 2023, 09:03:29 PM

We just moved back from Dubai to Australia and moved back into our old house, well 2 years ago now. We have settled back in and DW has a job that is a short walk from our house. We may end up FIREing, selling our house, putting everything back bro Storage and traveling for a bit until our new place is built. Either that or just work until the new house is built.

I could hive written this except we moved from Chicago to VA and didn’t keep our old house. We probably should have-it would be paid for by now. The income makes the builders happy. We are building multi-family housing, but I am not sure we want to be landlords. Or live with family.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on May 14, 2023, 10:13:35 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on May 09, 2023, 05:06:22 PM

Warning: depressing post…..

Stupid decision 2: we decided to build a fairly massive house on the land, far beyond our requirements. This was driven by a fear of undercapitalising, as all the neighbouring properties have big houses

I got caught up in this when we built a house…worst financial decision I’ve made in my life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on May 14, 2023, 06:02:22 PM

We built a house. It was twice the size of our previous house. Then we had a bonus baby, and while the house is great, I wouldn’t be disappointed if it was bigger in a couple areas. Not sure if we will stay in it forever, but if we do, we designed it so it will function like a smaller house once the kids have moved on.

That said, it’s really easy to get trapped in building bigger or more expensive finishes or whatever. Once we were done and kids and dogs started damaging things, I wish we had gone a little lower grade in some areas, and then re-decorate when the kids are older (or gone). That and we should have built a bigger garage. Much, much bigger garage. In fact, a bigger garage (room to park + room for bikes and stuff + workshop space), I’d take back anything about needing more living space.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 15, 2023, 06:49:12 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on May 14, 2023, 06:02:22 PM

We built a house. It was twice the size of our previous house. Then we had a bonus baby, and while the house is great, I wouldn’t be disappointed if it was bigger in a couple areas. Not sure if we will stay in it forever, but if we do, we designed it so it will function like a smaller house once the kids have moved on.

That said, it’s really easy to get trapped in building bigger or more expensive finishes or whatever. Once we were done and kids and dogs started damaging things, I wish we had gone a little lower grade in some areas, and then re-decorate when the kids are older (or gone). That and we should have built a bigger garage. Much, much bigger garage. In fact, a bigger garage (room to park + room for bikes and stuff + workshop space), I’d take back anything about needing more living space.

I no it's counter MMM, but I love our big house. We've lived in our starter house since 1992.  It's only about 2000 square feet.  It's always been cramped.  Our Florida home is 4000 square feet and I absolutely love it.  It's open, airy and bright.  My wife loves it as well and can entertain guests comfortably.  We bought it cheaper than we can downsize to. It's the difference between lean-FIRE and fat-FIRE.  We did spend more time working than many that want less.  I'm envious sometimes of the true MMM minimalists amount us. 
Wednesday I start the Appalachian Trail and of this moment, I never have to work another day if I choose. I have six weeks of backpacking to think.  I'll likely work a few weeks once I come back in July.  I'll lose dental insurance upon retirement and need a some work done.  Health insurance is locked in fortunately from this moment forward as well a my pension.  Three decades of work coming to a close has a great feeling.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 17, 2023, 06:28:37 AM

Overall, we are not frugal by MMM standards but one area where we have not spent much is housing. We have lived in the same 2,500  sq ft house for over 25 years which we have renovated gradually over the years. Thats the only house we have ever owned. Many of our friends have McMansions as well as vacation homes but, somehow, we have never felt the need to compete with them. 

I'm writing this sitting in my nicely renovated basement study with a comfy armchair and a wall of books. On the other side of the basement is my workshop and model train room. Totally Hygge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygge) ☺️

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 17, 2023, 07:20:56 AM

I'm hearing rumblings and seeing a definite slowdown in FIRE enthusiasm as this choppy market churns along.  Surprising to me how quickly things evaporated, this has always been a marathon and not a sprint.  I think the newer generation had only seen 10%+ gains and new highs every year.  It's much easier to imagine ER in your 30's when that dollar saved turns in to two dollars then four...  It's also easier to imagine expenses staying low indefinitely when inflation is zero and borrowing money for a house carries a sub-3% rate.  That long period of zero fed fund rates and quantitative easing put FIRE on noob mode.

Folks in this thread probably won't notice if our 2% or lower SWR drift up to 3% for the same quality of life (due to a portfolio decline and/or inflation on expenses), it's hardly cause for sleepless nights.  So I'm envisioning a FIRE future consisting of folks like Pete who have 'more than enough' and are enjoying having been ahead of the game when the slowdown hit vs. those on the hunt resigning themselves that there might be more OMY's in their future.  Reminds me of 2002 - 2005, except that period started off with a real crash for me (DotCom stock bloodbath) vs. the comparative whimper that was the 2022 'crash'...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on May 17, 2023, 08:57:12 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 17, 2023, 07:20:56 AM

I'm hearing rumblings and seeing a definite slowdown in FIRE enthusiasm as this choppy market churns along.  Surprising to me how quickly things evaporated, this has always been a marathon and not a sprint.  I think the newer generation had only seen 10%+ gains and new highs every year.  It's much easier to imagine ER in your 30's when that dollar saved turns in to two dollars then four...  It's also easier to imagine expenses staying low indefinitely when inflation is zero and borrowing money for a house carries a sub-3% rate.  That long period of zero fed fund rates and quantitative easing put FIRE on noob mode.

Folks in this thread probably won't notice if our 2% or lower SWR drift up to 3% for the same quality of life (due to a portfolio decline and/or inflation on expenses), it's hardly cause for sleepless nights.  So I'm envisioning a FIRE future consisting of folks like Pete who have 'more than enough' and are enjoying having been ahead of the game when the slowdown hit vs. those on the hunt resigning themselves that there might be more OMY's in their future.  Reminds me of 2002 - 2005, except that period started off with a real crash for me (DotCom stock bloodbath) vs. the comparative whimper that was the 2022 'crash'...

Hopefully these people understand that sideways/choppy markets are an excellent place to be in when you're accumulating investments!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 17, 2023, 09:09:53 AM

Quote from: dividendman on May 17, 2023, 08:57:12 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 17, 2023, 07:20:56 AM

...

Hopefully these people understand that sideways/choppy markets are an excellent place to be in when you're accumulating investments!

100%.  I had my 401k investments on autopilot and just kept chugging along.  Started to get really excited about FIRE again around 2007 .... LOL

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on May 17, 2023, 02:29:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 17, 2023, 07:20:56 AM

I'm hearing rumblings and seeing a definite slowdown in FIRE enthusiasm as this choppy market churns along.  Surprising to me how quickly things evaporated, this has always been a marathon and not a sprint.  I think the newer generation had only seen 10%+ gains and new highs every year.  It's much easier to imagine ER in your 30's when that dollar saved turns in to two dollars then four...  It's also easier to imagine expenses staying low indefinitely when inflation is zero and borrowing money for a house carries a sub-3% rate.  That long period of zero fed fund rates and quantitative easing put FIRE on noob mode.

Folks in this thread probably won't notice if our 2% or lower SWR drift up to 3% for the same quality of life (due to a portfolio decline and/or inflation on expenses), it's hardly cause for sleepless nights.  So I'm envisioning a FIRE future consisting of folks like Pete who have 'more than enough' and are enjoying having been ahead of the game when the slowdown hit vs. those on the hunt resigning themselves that there might be more OMY's in their future.  Reminds me of 2002 - 2005, except that period started off with a real crash for me (DotCom stock bloodbath) vs. the comparative whimper that was the 2022 'crash'...

Absolutely.  The "younger folks" that didn't experience the 2008-2009 crash with any skin in the game literally seemed to think that "stocks always go up".  I remember having quite a few conversations here and elsewhere trying to explain that they don't...but that fell on deaf ears and many insisted that they "knew better".  On top of that, many of these same "younger folks" had FIRE plans that were very, VERY optimistic.   And guess what?  Much of that optimism came crashing down.  Guess every generation has to learn the hard way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 17, 2023, 04:18:57 PM

In a way, beginning to invest in 2000 just before the crash was good for me.  I learned crashes when accumulating are great.  Stocks on sale.  Im seeing how much in the same.  Yeah I’m disappointed after a brief visit to 7 figures over a year my TSP is still in the 900s but I know at some point there will be a sharp refund.  The last few years my thoughts on the market, the higher it goes, the more it can fall before I need to actually make adjustments to my plan.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 17, 2023, 06:53:44 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on May 17, 2023, 02:29:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 17, 2023, 07:20:56 AM

I'm hearing rumblings and seeing a definite slowdown in FIRE enthusiasm as this choppy market churns along.  Surprising to me how quickly things evaporated, this has always been a marathon and not a sprint.  I think the newer generation had only seen 10%+ gains and new highs every year.  It's much easier to imagine ER in your 30's when that dollar saved turns in to two dollars then four...  It's also easier to imagine expenses staying low indefinitely when inflation is zero and borrowing money for a house carries a sub-3% rate.  That long period of zero fed fund rates and quantitative easing put FIRE on noob mode.

Folks in this thread probably won't notice if our 2% or lower SWR drift up to 3% for the same quality of life (due to a portfolio decline and/or inflation on expenses), it's hardly cause for sleepless nights.  So I'm envisioning a FIRE future consisting of folks like Pete who have 'more than enough' and are enjoying having been ahead of the game when the slowdown hit vs. those on the hunt resigning themselves that there might be more OMY's in their future.  Reminds me of 2002 - 2005, except that period started off with a real crash for me (DotCom stock bloodbath) vs. the comparative whimper that was the 2022 'crash'...

Absolutely.  The "younger folks" that didn't experience the 2008-2009 crash with any skin in the game literally seemed to think that "stocks always go up".  I remember having quite a few conversations here and elsewhere trying to explain that they don't...but that fell on deaf ears and many insisted that they "knew better".  On top of that, many of these same "younger folks" had FIRE plans that were very, VERY optimistic.   And guess what?  Much of that optimism came crashing down.  Guess every generation has to learn the hard way.

I guess the same thing could be said for the 1987 crash and the dot com bubble.  Back in those days, retirement was far from my mind.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 17, 2023, 08:16:51 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 17, 2023, 06:53:44 PM

I guess the same thing could be said for the 1987 crash and the dot com bubble.  Back in those days, retirement was far from my mind.

Interestingly, I don't think anyone was talking about retiring in their 20's or 30's during the dotcom bubble, although people were making crazy gains and salaries.  I personally considered switching from engineering into investment banking since all my stock picks were going straight up...  fortunately I never followed through, although I did get accepted in to an Ivy program and had the cash ready.  Those were exciting times, but the enthusiasm seemed more toward chasing the next Big Thing (Napster, Broadcom, Yahoo!) vs. the ER badge of honor that got popular this time around.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 18, 2023, 08:09:02 AM

Quote from: pecunia on May 17, 2023, 06:53:44 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on May 17, 2023, 02:29:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 17, 2023, 07:20:56 AM

I'm hearing rumblings and seeing a definite slowdown in FIRE enthusiasm as this choppy market churns along.  Surprising to me how quickly things evaporated, this has always been a marathon and not a sprint.  I think the newer generation had only seen 10%+ gains and new highs every year.  It's much easier to imagine ER in your 30's when that dollar saved turns in to two dollars then four...  It's also easier to imagine expenses staying low indefinitely when inflation is zero and borrowing money for a house carries a sub-3% rate.  That long period of zero fed fund rates and quantitative easing put FIRE on noob mode.

Folks in this thread probably won't notice if our 2% or lower SWR drift up to 3% for the same quality of life (due to a portfolio decline and/or inflation on expenses), it's hardly cause for sleepless nights.  So I'm envisioning a FIRE future consisting of folks like Pete who have 'more than enough' and are enjoying having been ahead of the game when the slowdown hit vs. those on the hunt resigning themselves that there might be more OMY's in their future.  Reminds me of 2002 - 2005, except that period started off with a real crash for me (DotCom stock bloodbath) vs. the comparative whimper that was the 2022 'crash'...

Absolutely.  The "younger folks" that didn't experience the 2008-2009 crash with any skin in the game literally seemed to think that "stocks always go up".  I remember having quite a few conversations here and elsewhere trying to explain that they don't...but that fell on deaf ears and many insisted that they "knew better".  On top of that, many of these same "younger folks" had FIRE plans that were very, VERY optimistic.   And guess what?  Much of that optimism came crashing down.  Guess every generation has to learn the hard way.

I guess the same thing could be said for the 1987 crash and the dot com bubble.  Back in those days, retirement was far from my mind.

I was still in college during the 1987 crash but I remember following the news very closely. There does not seem to be any good explanation even today about that crash. I was working during the 2000 and 2008 crashes so I experienced them first hand. The main impact these crashes had was that we (still) keep way more in readily accessible funds (savings and money market accounts) than most people. On the other hand, I never stopped our automatic investments even in the dark days of 2008-2010, which is one of the factors that helped me retire early.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on May 18, 2023, 08:20:19 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 17, 2023, 08:16:51 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 17, 2023, 06:53:44 PM

I guess the same thing could be said for the 1987 crash and the dot com bubble.  Back in those days, retirement was far from my mind.

Interestingly, I don't think anyone was talking about retiring in their 20's or 30's during the dotcom bubble, although people were making crazy gains and salaries.  I personally considered switching from engineering into investment banking since all my stock picks were going straight up...  fortunately I never followed through, although I did get accepted in to an Ivy program and had the cash ready.  Those were exciting times, but the enthusiasm seemed more toward chasing the next Big Thing (Napster, Broadcom, Yahoo!) vs. the ER badge of honor that got popular this time around.

And I wear that badge with a great deal of satisfaction.. Until I'm made an offer I can't refuse at least..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 18, 2023, 08:51:27 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on May 18, 2023, 08:20:19 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on May 17, 2023, 08:16:51 PM

Quote from: pecunia on May 17, 2023, 06:53:44 PM

I guess the same thing could be said for the 1987 crash and the dot com bubble.  Back in those days, retirement was far from my mind.

Interestingly, I don't think anyone was talking about retiring in their 20's or 30's during the dotcom bubble, although people were making crazy gains and salaries.  I personally considered switching from engineering into investment banking since all my stock picks were going straight up...  fortunately I never followed through, although I did get accepted in to an Ivy program and had the cash ready.  Those were exciting times, but the enthusiasm seemed more toward chasing the next Big Thing (Napster, Broadcom, Yahoo!) vs. the ER badge of honor that got popular this time around.

And I wear that badge with a great deal of satisfaction.. Until I'm made an offer I can't refuse at least..:)

Exflyboy - more like Exretireboy!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: fredbear on May 18, 2023, 11:32:17 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 18, 2023, 08:09:02 AM

...

I was still in college during the 1987 crash but I remember following the news very closely. There does not seem to be any good explanation even today about that crash. ...

I was in Cataract Canyon when that one hit.  Found out about it talking to a bush pilot on the dirt strip near Hite UT.  I had been queasy about prices for a while and had gone to cash about 2 months before.  Any claims to intelligence or prescience have to be declined, since I then entered the classic period of abulia: sitting 100% in cash, should I get back in now (it had traded back up very quickly), or should I wait?  The answer - not taken - was to have gotten back in right away.  The answer - taken - was to ditz around and miss a couple years of advances.

As I recall, the market then was an interwoven mass of program trading, and when a particular trade (traced eventually to a youthful wunderkind, I believe) dropped below the trigger point, there was an auto-sale.  All the other program-trade computers were on the alert and all had pretty much the same triggers as to price and volume, so that trade knocked the keystone from the arch.  The computers all began frenziedly (if a computer can be said to be subject to frenzy) dumping shares to minimize losses, thus maximizing losses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on May 18, 2023, 04:13:23 PM

Quote from: fredbear on May 18, 2023, 11:32:17 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on May 18, 2023, 08:09:02 AM

...

I was still in college during the 1987 crash but I remember following the news very closely. There does not seem to be any good explanation even today about that crash. ...

I was in Cataract Canyon when that one hit.  Found out about it talking to a bush pilot on the dirt strip near Hite UT.  I had been queasy about prices for a while and had gone to cash about 2 months before.  Any claims to intelligence or prescience have to be declined, since I then entered the classic period of abulia: sitting 100% in cash, should I get back in now (it had traded back up very quickly), or should I wait?  The answer - not taken - was to have gotten back in right away.  The answer - taken - was to ditz around and miss a couple years of advances.

As I recall, the market then was an interwoven mass of program trading, and when a particular trade (traced eventually to a youthful wunderkind, I believe) dropped below the trigger point, there was an auto-sale.  All the other program-trade computers were on the alert and all had pretty much the same triggers as to price and volume, so that trade knocked the keystone from the arch.  The computers all began frenziedly (if a computer can be said to be subject to frenzy) dumping shares to minimize losses, thus maximizing losses.

One interesting thing to note is that back then it was called "program driven trading" because much of the actual trading happened on the floor of the NYSE at the various posts. So that had the effect of slowing the trades. Now with the NYSE completely automated (located in a warehouse in Mahwah, NJ) the effect of such cascading triggered  trading would be much worse - which is why circuit breakers (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/circuitbreaker.asp) were added after the 1987 crash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on May 22, 2023, 05:20:22 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on May 17, 2023, 04:18:57 PM

In a way, beginning to invest in 2000 just before the crash was good for me.  I learned crashes when accumulating are great.  Stocks on sale.  Im seeing how much in the same.  Yeah I’m disappointed after a brief visit to 7 figures over a year my TSP is still in the 900s but I know at some point there will be a sharp refund.  The last few years my thoughts on the market, the higher it goes, the more it can fall before I need to actually make adjustments to my plan.

Yeah, hopefully a lot of newer folks learned a baby lesson with the covid blip, and can see how a couple sideways years can really propel things. Between that and understanding that buying all the way down and all the up, no matter what, is as close to foolproof as possible. Even most Japan only investors have done OK. Of course those that put a bunch of money in from the mid eighties on have had a rough go of it, but anyone who started in the last 25 years has done OK, not great, but OK. Especially if they diversified (like they should have been doing even without the crash.)

I read the “treading water” thread to see how others are doing, and enjoy the commiseration. It’s a little annoying to pile every cent possible into accounts and still be trailing Jan 2022 numbers, but knowing that even a small rise, like maybe 5% above those SP500 (plus the rest of the markets) highs, will put our accounts at a crazy level since we have been buying at 2020 and 2021 prices.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 23, 2023, 05:34:32 AM

Time has slowed to the pace of my feet.  I'm at AT mile 495 and I started at mile 428 last Wednesday.  I took a zero mile day in Damascus, Virginia for the Trail Days festival.  I'm currently camped at the base of Mount Rogers.  Today I'll run up and tag it's summit as Virginia's high point.  Dreaming of a motel night in a few days to get cleaned up and eat Mexican food.
My nice phone I bought for the trip blew up and I'm on a $49.99 burner phone from the dollar store.  It works pretty good actually.  I downloaded Mint for some stupid reason.  Almost most at an all time high.  So no worries about money.  I'm out here living like a hermit anyway.  Red Roof Inn is $63 dollars.  I've just got to get to it.
The mountains are just as tough regardless of your financial status.  Younger people blow right by you up the hills.  They have the true treasure, vitality.  Time for me to break camp and hike.  It's a cold morning but I've got to get going.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 23, 2023, 06:15:53 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 23, 2023, 05:34:32 AM

Time has slowed to the pace of my feet.  I'm at AT mile 495 and I started at mile 428 last Wednesday.  I took a zero mile day in Damascus, Virginia for the Trail Days festival.  I'm currently camped at the base of Mount Rogers.  Today I'll run up and tag it's summit as Virginia's high point.  Dreaming of a motel night in a few days to get cleaned up and eat Mexican food.
My nice phone I bought for the trip blew up and I'm on a $49.99 burner phone from the dollar store.  It works pretty good actually.  I downloaded Mint for some stupid reason.  Almost most at an all time high.  So no worries about money.  I'm out here living like a hermit anyway.  Red Roof Inn is $63 dollars.  I've just got to get to it.
The mountains are just as tough regardless of your financial status.  Younger people blow right by you up the hills.  They have the true treasure, vitality.  Time for me to break camp and hike.  It's a cold morning but I've got to get going.

That's a beautiful area.  We lived nearby, in NC, for about 20 years.  It was a great place to live and raise our daughter.  We still have the place up there, but DW wanted to leave the harsh Winters.  Watch out for bears, especially the ones with cubs. 


Have you already hiked the Southern sections of the AT?  I've never hiked it, but have crisscrossed it a lot riding my dual-sport motorcycle between Roan Mtn. & Damascus. 


Are you sleeping in a tent or hammock camping?  Have you met any interesting characters? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on May 23, 2023, 07:51:37 AM

It's the weight of all the life lessons you've learned that impact your speed. Slow and steady will get you there @Bateaux .

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on May 23, 2023, 01:26:00 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 23, 2023, 06:15:53 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 23, 2023, 05:34:32 AM

Time has slowed to the pace of my feet.  I'm at AT mile 495 and I started at mile 428 last Wednesday.  I took a zero mile day in Damascus, Virginia for the Trail Days festival.  I'm currently camped at the base of Mount Rogers.  Today I'll run up and tag it's summit as Virginia's high point.  Dreaming of a motel night in a few days to get cleaned up and eat Mexican food.
My nice phone I bought for the trip blew up and I'm on a $49.99 burner phone from the dollar store.  It works pretty good actually.  I downloaded Mint for some stupid reason.  Almost most at an all time high.  So no worries about money.  I'm out here living like a hermit anyway.  Red Roof Inn is $63 dollars.  I've just got to get to it.
The mountains are just as tough regardless of your financial status.  Younger people blow right by you up the hills.  They have the true treasure, vitality.  Time for me to break camp and hike.  It's a cold morning but I've got to get going.

That's a beautiful area.  We lived nearby, in NC, for about 20 years.  It was a great place to live and raise our daughter.  We still have the place up there, but DW wanted to leave the harsh Winters.  Watch out for bears, especially the ones with cubs. 


Have you already hiked the Southern sections of the AT?  I've never hiked it, but have crisscrossed it a lot riding my dual-sport motorcycle between Roan Mtn. & Damascus. 


Are you sleeping in a tent or hammock camping?  Have you met any interesting characters?

Harsh winters....in NC?  We moved our daughter to NC for grad school last year and man...NC is like paradise. 

I should mention we are from MN...so I always have to laugh when I hear "harsh winters".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 23, 2023, 02:36:30 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on May 23, 2023, 01:26:00 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 23, 2023, 06:15:53 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 23, 2023, 05:34:32 AM

Time has slowed to the pace of my feet.  I'm at AT mile 495 and I started at mile 428 last Wednesday.  I took a zero mile day in Damascus, Virginia for the Trail Days festival.  I'm currently camped at the base of Mount Rogers.  Today I'll run up and tag it's summit as Virginia's high point.  Dreaming of a motel night in a few days to get cleaned up and eat Mexican food.
My nice phone I bought for the trip blew up and I'm on a $49.99 burner phone from the dollar store.  It works pretty good actually.  I downloaded Mint for some stupid reason.  Almost most at an all time high.  So no worries about money.  I'm out here living like a hermit anyway.  Red Roof Inn is $63 dollars.  I've just got to get to it.
The mountains are just as tough regardless of your financial status.  Younger people blow right by you up the hills.  They have the true treasure, vitality.  Time for me to break camp and hike.  It's a cold morning but I've got to get going.

That's a beautiful area.  We lived nearby, in NC, for about 20 years.  It was a great place to live and raise our daughter.  We still have the place up there, but DW wanted to leave the harsh Winters.  Watch out for bears, especially the ones with cubs. 


Have you already hiked the Southern sections of the AT?  I've never hiked it, but have crisscrossed it a lot riding my dual-sport motorcycle between Roan Mtn. & Damascus. 


Are you sleeping in a tent or hammock camping?  Have you met any interesting characters?

Harsh winters....in NC?  We moved our daughter to NC for grad school last year and man...NC is like paradise. 

I should mention we are from MN...so I always have to laugh when I hear "harsh winters".

The NW corner of NC is called the "High Country".  There were a few Winters with weeks that we didn't get above the teens and months that didn't above freezing.  One year I remember the snow total was over 120".  I know it's not MN cold, but it's still cold enough to wish you were somewhere else.  ;~)


Roan Mtn. has plants left over from the last ice age.  I think it's said you don't see those types of plants until you get into Canada.


Mt. Mitchell at 6684' is the highest point East of the Rockies.  Our place is at only 2900' but is high enough that we never needed an A/C.  (I'll admit that there were a few days that we wished we had it.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 23, 2023, 08:12:18 PM

Hey guys.  I want to summit of Mount Rogers today and had wild horses following us today.  I'm currently at Wise Shelter.  Looks like we will dip into the 30s tonight.  I'm comfortable in my hammock listening to coyotes not far away.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on May 24, 2023, 01:54:43 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 23, 2023, 02:36:30 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on May 23, 2023, 01:26:00 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 23, 2023, 06:15:53 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 23, 2023, 05:34:32 AM

Time has slowed to the pace of my feet.  I'm at AT mile 495 and I started at mile 428 last Wednesday.  I took a zero mile day in Damascus, Virginia for the Trail Days festival.  I'm currently camped at the base of Mount Rogers.  Today I'll run up and tag it's summit as Virginia's high point.  Dreaming of a motel night in a few days to get cleaned up and eat Mexican food.
My nice phone I bought for the trip blew up and I'm on a $49.99 burner phone from the dollar store.  It works pretty good actually.  I downloaded Mint for some stupid reason.  Almost most at an all time high.  So no worries about money.  I'm out here living like a hermit anyway.  Red Roof Inn is $63 dollars.  I've just got to get to it.
The mountains are just as tough regardless of your financial status.  Younger people blow right by you up the hills.  They have the true treasure, vitality.  Time for me to break camp and hike.  It's a cold morning but I've got to get going.

That's a beautiful area.  We lived nearby, in NC, for about 20 years.  It was a great place to live and raise our daughter.  We still have the place up there, but DW wanted to leave the harsh Winters.  Watch out for bears, especially the ones with cubs. 


Have you already hiked the Southern sections of the AT?  I've never hiked it, but have crisscrossed it a lot riding my dual-sport motorcycle between Roan Mtn. & Damascus. 


Are you sleeping in a tent or hammock camping?  Have you met any interesting characters?

Harsh winters....in NC?  We moved our daughter to NC for grad school last year and man...NC is like paradise. 

I should mention we are from MN...so I always have to laugh when I hear "harsh winters".

The NW corner of NC is called the "High Country".  There were a few Winters with weeks that we didn't get above the teens and months that didn't above freezing.  One year I remember the snow total was over 120".  I know it's not MN cold, but it's still cold enough to wish you were somewhere else.  ;~)


Roan Mtn. has plants left over from the last ice age.  I think it's said you don't see those types of plants until you get into Canada.


Mt. Mitchell at 6684' is the highest point East of the Rockies.  Our place is at only 2900' but is high enough that we never needed an A/C.  (I'll admit that there were a few days that we wished we had it.)

Ahh..ok I see! 

Yep, the high country is definitely a colder climate.  We have been to Mt. Mitchell.  In fact, we just visited our daughter a few weeks ago and we did the Blue Ridge Parkway segment from Boone to Asheville.  Also liked stopping in "little switzerland" for a bit along the way.   Didn't visit Mt. Mitchell state park this time though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 25, 2023, 04:43:14 AM

All this elevation and trail talk makes me think of my trail running group discussion of how this is NOT the year to try to through hike the Pacific Coast Trail.  There will be snow in much of the High Sierras portion through July plus.  Heck the most recent road report on Tigoa at Yosemite’s is Cal trans has been clearing roads with 8-11ft of snow as they try to get it open for the summer.

I’m more of a fast packer than a hiker, so I admit my long trail goals are more along the lines of Mont Blanc than the APT of PCT.  I like a dorm or hotel room with indoor plumbing.  (Or at least a vault toilet).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on May 26, 2023, 09:40:39 PM

I'm currently 106 miles in at the Mount Rogers Headquarters.  Mile marker 534 up from mile 428.  Took me ten days, a little behind where I thought I'd be, but there was Trail Days festival and an overnight hiker picnic at a church.  Currently at a hostel in Marion Virginia.  Back on trail tomorrow. Four days of rain is predicted. I'll be grunting through it.  Still having fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 27, 2023, 06:29:05 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 26, 2023, 09:40:39 PM

I'm currently 106 miles in at the Mount Rogers Headquarters.  Mile marker 534 up from mile 428.  Took me ten days, a little behind where I thought I'd be, but there was Trail Days festival and an overnight hiker picnic at a church.  Currently at a hostel in Marion Virginia.  Back on trail tomorrow. Four days of rain is predicted. I'll be grunting through it.  Still having fun.

A wet, cold, miserable hike on slippery mountain trails sure beats work.  Glad you're having fun.  Be safe. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 27, 2023, 03:20:29 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on May 27, 2023, 06:29:05 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 26, 2023, 09:40:39 PM

I'm currently 106 miles in at the Mount Rogers Headquarters.  Mile marker 534 up from mile 428.  Took me ten days, a little behind where I thought I'd be, but there was Trail Days festival and an overnight hiker picnic at a church.  Currently at a hostel in Marion Virginia.  Back on trail tomorrow. Four days of rain is predicted. I'll be grunting through it.  Still having fun.

A wet, cold, miserable hike on slippery mountain trails sure beats work.  Glad you're having fun.  Be safe.

True - However, If I had to take a wet, cold miserable walk on slippery ground for work, I may have been cussing in several languages and even crested some totally new expletives. .

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 09, 2023, 08:26:24 AM

Why is it when working, and you are super excited for next month’s vacation that work “decides” we are going to have a metric ton of special events come at you.  It’s a long 25 months until I’m immediate pension eligible.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 09, 2023, 10:09:21 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on June 09, 2023, 08:26:24 AM

Why is it when working, and you are super excited for next month’s vacation that work “decides” we are going to have a metric ton of special events come at you.  It’s a long 25 months until I’m immediate pension eligible.

Ahh yes the "I have the finish line in sight" feeling.

Of course the great thing is, due to your saving/investing diligence you do actually have the finish line in sight. I remember those last few months were just awful though. In my case I got lucky in that my company offered to pay me money to leave early from the toxic environment.. In other words they fired me..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on June 09, 2023, 12:39:32 PM

I am working on some components for a new platform that has start of production in 2029, and there is almost no way I will still be working at that time. Sort of a weird feeling when signing off on designs knowing not only do I not have to actually care about their field performance, but I won't even be the one to see them launched.

We had a buyout about three years ago during a somewhat large restructuring. Since most areas have basically reverted back I am hoping they do another buyout in the next year. I am pretty sure I would close to the head of the line if the deal is anything like last time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: scottish on June 09, 2023, 05:55:42 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 26, 2023, 09:40:39 PM

I'm currently 106 miles in at the Mount Rogers Headquarters.  Mile marker 534 up from mile 428.  Took me ten days, a little behind where I thought I'd be, but there was Trail Days festival and an overnight hiker picnic at a church.  Currently at a hostel in Marion Virginia.  Back on trail tomorrow. Four days of rain is predicted. I'll be grunting through it.  Still having fun.

How many nights do you spend in the backcountry versus in a hostel, B&B, etc?

I used to backpack in the backcountry in the Canadian rockies and on the north shore of Lake Superior once or twice a year where there aren't any hostels.    Well more or less in the rockies, anway.   There are ACC huts in the rockies along with high end tourist accomodations, but I didn't go there.   I've never done a trip where you get to stay in a nice bed every night!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 11, 2023, 06:45:25 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 09, 2023, 10:09:21 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on June 09, 2023, 08:26:24 AM

Why is it when working, and you are super excited for next month’s vacation that work “decides” we are going to have a metric ton of special events come at you.  It’s a long 25 months until I’m immediate pension eligible.

Ahh yes the "I have the finish line in sight" feeling.

Of course the great thing is, due to your saving/investing diligence you do actually have the finish line in sight. I remember those last few months were just awful though. In my case I got lucky in that my company offered to pay me money to leave early from the toxic environment.. In other words they fired me..:)

+1 on this feeling.  Hoping to be on about the same timeline -- 24-30 months...except no pension in my future.  Tough to hear that it doesn't get better, I was hopeful that the last 3-4 months might be more transitional in nature and therefore be easier, but I guess its still the same shit different day.   Getting fired is a great way to go if you can time it right!  I'd take a little severance bonus and COBRA options at the end of the road!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 11, 2023, 07:50:34 AM

Quote from: arcturus on June 11, 2023, 06:45:25 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 09, 2023, 10:09:21 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on June 09, 2023, 08:26:24 AM

Why is it when working, and you are super excited for next month’s vacation that work “decides” we are going to have a metric ton of special events come at you.  It’s a long 25 months until I’m immediate pension eligible.

Ahh yes the "I have the finish line in sight" feeling.

Of course the great thing is, due to your saving/investing diligence you do actually have the finish line in sight. I remember those last few months were just awful though. In my case I got lucky in that my company offered to pay me money to leave early from the toxic environment.. In other words they fired me..:)

+1 on this feeling.  Hoping to be on about the same timeline -- 24-30 months...except no pension in my future.  Tough to hear that it doesn't get better, I was hopeful that the last 3-4 months might be more transitional in nature and therefore be easier, but I guess its still the same shit different day.   Getting fired is a great way to go if you can time it right!  I'd take a little severance bonus and COBRA options at the end of the road!

Wow guys, 25 month timeframes seem like an awfully long time, especially at our ages.  I also don't have the pension handcuffs, so I just take my employment as it comes.  I don't need the money per se, but the health benefits for the family and social/mental stimulation would be sad to lose unexpectedly.  Like Arcturus, I'm going to give negotiating a severance a try once I'm sure I'm done.  I have a good relationship with my boss, so I don't think he'd be offended, just surprised that I'm wanting to retire.

Although I cringe when 30 year olds use the 'rich, broke, dead' calculator to justify ER, it definitely applies to folks in our cohort.  I'd think long and hard about ways to make those last months of employment as un-sucky as possible - these are super valuable years of our lives.  I had a pretty good work/life balance until Covid came along and now I feel like I should work harder but have gotten in to a bad rut of doing the bare minimum and feeling guilty.  Trying to get my momentum back for one last stretch so I can end on a high note...  Hopefully some good vacations coming up will reinvigorate me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 11, 2023, 08:31:15 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 11, 2023, 07:50:34 AM

Quote from: arcturus on June 11, 2023, 06:45:25 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 09, 2023, 10:09:21 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on June 09, 2023, 08:26:24 AM

Why is it when working, and you are super excited for next month’s vacation that work “decides” we are going to have a metric ton of special events come at you.  It’s a long 25 months until I’m immediate pension eligible.

Ahh yes the "I have the finish line in sight" feeling.

Of course the great thing is, due to your saving/investing diligence you do actually have the finish line in sight. I remember those last few months were just awful though. In my case I got lucky in that my company offered to pay me money to leave early from the toxic environment.. In other words they fired me..:)

+1 on this feeling.  Hoping to be on about the same timeline -- 24-30 months...except no pension in my future.  Tough to hear that it doesn't get better, I was hopeful that the last 3-4 months might be more transitional in nature and therefore be easier, but I guess its still the same shit different day.   Getting fired is a great way to go if you can time it right!  I'd take a little severance bonus and COBRA options at the end of the road!

Wow guys, 25 month timeframes seem like an awfully long time, especially at our ages.  I also don't have the pension handcuffs, so I just take my employment as it comes.  I don't need the money per se, but the health benefits for the family and social/mental stimulation would be sad to lose unexpectedly.  Like Arcturus, I'm going to give negotiating a severance a try once I'm sure I'm done.  I have a good relationship with my boss, so I don't think he'd be offended, just surprised that I'm wanting to retire.

Although I cringe when 30 year olds use the 'rich, broke, dead' calculator to justify ER, it definitely applies to folks in our cohort.  I'd think long and hard about ways to make those last months of employment as un-sucky as possible - these are super valuable years of our lives.  I had a pretty good work/life balance until Covid came along and now I feel like I should work harder but have gotten in to a bad rut of doing the bare minimum and feeling guilty.  Trying to get my momentum back for one last stretch so I can end on a high note...  Hopefully some good vacations coming up will reinvigorate me.

My Pension comes with lifetime US healthcare.  It is the real handcuff for me more so than the pension itself. 

Unfortunately work has two massive “projects” before July 2025 that will effect me no matter what.  One culminating this November (@Dicey avoid the city November 12-18 it will be a mess) and I have election adjacent responsibilities.  Maybe the last 6 months will be a lull but I’m not counting on it something will come up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 11, 2023, 08:36:27 AM

Poetically stated @EscapeVelocity2020  --  I could not agree more.  I unfortunately have found myself cutting back on plans for near-term enjoyment (like the bucket list vacations) for two reasons: (1) the market pullback and naively / stupidly thinking that I can make up for it by cutting back on discretionary spending; and (2) the fact that I usually end up working at least some during my vacation, so why do it now?   

But I hear myself saying these things and I cringe, because yes, in my 50s now.  I, like you, also have a good relationship with my boss and have considered raising the topic of retirement next year.  It would be a shock for them, for sure, but has the potential to lead to a better work/life balance.  Currently debating the pros/cons of that move.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: RedefinedHappiness on June 11, 2023, 03:52:26 PM

What are the talking points for negotiating a severance when you decide to FIRE?  Honesty with a boss you trust?  Threatening poor work effort if you stick around?  I'm not sure what I would say, but interested in hearing how to approach it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 11, 2023, 07:37:47 PM

Quote from: RedefinedHappiness on June 11, 2023, 03:52:26 PM

What are the talking points for negotiating a severance when you decide to FIRE?  Honesty with a boss you trust?  Threatening poor work effort if you stick around?  I'm not sure what I would say, but interested in hearing how to approach it.

In my case, it would not be a matter of negotiating a severance when I decide to FIRE, rather it would be making my boss aware that, in the event that my company decides to execute a reduction in force, my name could be put on the list in the event that she needs/wants to participate.   I don't think that conversation would be all that difficult, based on the relationship I have with my boss and my excellent performance at the company.  And in some ways, it could be viewed as a helpful offer by my boss to the extent that she needs to participate.  Every situation is different.   But it is not a matter of me deciding I want to FIRE and then trying to talk the boss into a severance package.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 13, 2023, 08:10:29 AM

Quote from: scottish on June 09, 2023, 05:55:42 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on May 26, 2023, 09:40:39 PM

I'm currently 106 miles in at the Mount Rogers Headquarters.  Mile marker 534 up from mile 428.  Took me ten days, a little behind where I thought I'd be, but there was Trail Days festival and an overnight hiker picnic at a church.  Currently at a hostel in Marion Virginia.  Back on trail tomorrow. Four days of rain is predicted. I'll be grunting through it.  Still having fun.

How many nights do you spend in the backcountry versus in a hostel, B&B, etc?

I used to backpack in the backcountry in the Canadian rockies and on the north shore of Lake Superior once or twice a year where there aren't any hostels.    Well more or less in the rockies, anway.   There are ACC huts in the rockies along with high end tourist accomodations, but I didn't go there.   I've never done a trip where you get to stay in a nice bed every night!

The Appalachian Trail being near trail towns most of the way, a fast hiker could almost sleeping a bed every night.  I'm at 300 miles now in Daleville Virginia.  I'm currently in a Super 8 hotel.  This has been my 7th stay.  Not all of those being a bed.  Some were camping on site, but access to a shower and possibly flush toilet.  This is called Platinum blazing.  Some hikers cannot afford to do this because of a tight budget.  So I've stayed in a off trail situation about 1/4 of the time.  The stench and wetness is what drives me into a point of refuge.  I may do more remote trails in the future.  The CDT and PCT are more remote.  I plan to do the Florida Trail next.  It's hot, sticky and stinky.  Maybe the Arizona trail.  I'll probably bicycle tour more than backpack in coming years.  That more so allows the bed options when needed due to greater miles covered in a day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 13, 2023, 08:20:31 AM

Well, although I thought even a month ago that it wasn't possible, today, I hit my goal of $4M liquid assets.  $4,007,605 to be exact.  When I started this thread, I had thought that $4M would be a long stretch.  I know that others are way past that (especially on Bogleheads), but this sits well over 50 times retirement spending.  As I write this, I have 9 more working days until my official retirement.  I told my wife that now we can afford that Fisherman's platter at the local drive in fish place for Fathers Day.  Cue the music (classic rock works for me). 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2KidFIRE on June 13, 2023, 09:16:17 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 13, 2023, 08:20:31 AM

Well, although I thought even a month ago that it wasn't possible, today, I hit my goal of $4M liquid assets.  $4,007,605 to be exact.  When I started this thread, I had thought that $4M would be a long stretch.  I know that others are way past that (especially on Bogleheads), but this sits well over 50 times retirement spending.  As I write this, I have 9 more working days until my official retirement.  I told my wife that now we can afford that Fisherman's platter at the local drive in fish place for Fathers Day.  Cue the music (classic rock works for me).

Congratulations on now being "beyond"!  Maybe get that appetizer with the platter ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 13, 2023, 10:00:06 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 13, 2023, 08:20:31 AM

Well, although I thought even a month ago that it wasn't possible, today, I hit my goal of $4M liquid assets.  $4,007,605 to be exact.  When I started this thread, I had thought that $4M would be a long stretch.  I know that others are way past that (especially on Bogleheads), but this sits well over 50 times retirement spending.  As I write this, I have 9 more working days until my official retirement.  I told my wife that now we can afford that Fisherman's platter at the local drive in fish place for Fathers Day.  Cue the music (classic rock works for me).

Congratulations! Thats the amazing power of saving, investing  and compounding.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 13, 2023, 10:19:17 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 13, 2023, 08:20:31 AM

Well, although I thought even a month ago that it wasn't possible, today, I hit my goal of $4M liquid assets.  $4,007,605 to be exact.  When I started this thread, I had thought that $4M would be a long stretch.  I know that others are way past that (especially on Bogleheads), but this sits well over 50 times retirement spending.  As I write this, I have 9 more working days until my official retirement.  I told my wife that now we can afford that Fisherman's platter at the local drive in fish place for Fathers Day.  Cue the music (classic rock works for me).

Awesome CarJack.  I remember like yesterday that I was racing to get into the 2-4 and beyond club.  We're also sitting on new liquid highs.  3.175 this morning.  Retirement is almost there for us as well.  Possibly by July.  I'm on practice retirement right now using paid time off while hiking the AT.
Beyond will likely come for us even in retirement. 
Congratulations again on the escape velocity you've achieved!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 13, 2023, 10:58:16 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 13, 2023, 08:20:31 AM

Well, although I thought even a month ago that it wasn't possible, today, I hit my goal of $4M liquid assets.  $4,007,605 to be exact.  When I started this thread, I had thought that $4M would be a long stretch.  I know that others are way past that (especially on Bogleheads), but this sits well over 50 times retirement spending.  As I write this, I have 9 more working days until my official retirement.  I told my wife that now we can afford that Fisherman's platter at the local drive in fish place for Fathers Day.  Cue the music (classic rock works for me).

Your time will be your own.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 13, 2023, 12:43:44 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 13, 2023, 08:20:31 AM

Well, although I thought even a month ago that it wasn't possible, today, I hit my goal of $4M liquid assets.  $4,007,605 to be exact.  When I started this thread, I had thought that $4M would be a long stretch.  I know that others are way past that (especially on Bogleheads), but this sits well over 50 times retirement spending.  As I write this, I have 9 more working days until my official retirement.  I told my wife that now we can afford that Fisherman's platter at the local drive in fish place for Fathers Day.  Cue the music (classic rock works for me).

Fantastic...:).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on June 13, 2023, 05:59:31 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 13, 2023, 08:20:31 AM

Well, although I thought even a month ago that it wasn't possible, today, I hit my goal of $4M liquid assets.  $4,007,605 to be exact.  When I started this thread, I had thought that $4M would be a long stretch.  I know that others are way past that (especially on Bogleheads), but this sits well over 50 times retirement spending.  As I write this, I have 9 more working days until my official retirement.  I told my wife that now we can afford that Fisherman's platter at the local drive in fish place for Fathers Day.  Cue the music (classic rock works for me).

Awesome! Nine days, wow, crazy to think about it. Congrats.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 13, 2023, 08:10:12 PM

This reminds me of a time we went out to eat back in 2013.

DW (HRH) was looking at the menu and mused.. "hmm I wonder if I should have a margarita?"

I replied "Well we ARE millionaires". Now DW had NO IDEA we were worth anything close to that amount as she doesn't do money.

The look on her face with her jaw hanging open we classic.

She then followed up with .. "Never tell me that stuff again".....No she wasn't kidding!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2KidFIRE on June 14, 2023, 09:14:24 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 13, 2023, 08:10:12 PM

This reminds me of a time we went out to eat back in 2013.

DW (HRH) was looking at the menu and mused.. "hmm I wonder if I should have a margarita?"

I replied "Well we ARE millionaires". Now DW had NO IDEA we were worth anything close to that amount as she doesn't do money.

The look on her face with her jaw hanging open we classic.

She then followed up with .. "Never tell me that stuff again".....No she wasn't kidding!

Every person in this thread is technically a "multi-millionaire", my wife and I included, but it just sounds really weird when you say it out loud.  Especially since when most people think of multi-millionaires they think of extravagant wealth and not people comparison shopping to find the best deal on toilet paper :P

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 14, 2023, 09:49:29 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on June 14, 2023, 09:14:24 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 13, 2023, 08:10:12 PM

This reminds me of a time we went out to eat back in 2013.

DW (HRH) was looking at the menu and mused.. "hmm I wonder if I should have a margarita?"

I replied "Well we ARE millionaires". Now DW had NO IDEA we were worth anything close to that amount as she doesn't do money.

The look on her face with her jaw hanging open we classic.

She then followed up with .. "Never tell me that stuff again".....No she wasn't kidding!

Every person in this thread is technically a "multi-millionaire", my wife and I included, but it just sounds really weird when you say it out loud.  Especially since when most people think of multi-millionaires they think of extravagant wealth and not people comparison shopping to find the best deal on toilet paper :P

I was almost a multimillionaire in 2013 ($1.9M) and it still doesn't feel real!  Nothing significant has changed for us since we bought our $315k house in 2009, other than now we buy cars new instead of used (for the improved safety features and reliability)...

I still dream of having a million dollar spending spree at some point :)  It's wild to know that I'd still be FI afterwards.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 14, 2023, 10:41:50 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 14, 2023, 09:49:29 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on June 14, 2023, 09:14:24 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 13, 2023, 08:10:12 PM

This reminds me of a time we went out to eat back in 2013.

DW (HRH) was looking at the menu and mused.. "hmm I wonder if I should have a margarita?"

I replied "Well we ARE millionaires". Now DW had NO IDEA we were worth anything close to that amount as she doesn't do money.

The look on her face with her jaw hanging open we classic.

She then followed up with .. "Never tell me that stuff again".....No she wasn't kidding!

Every person in this thread is technically a "multi-millionaire", my wife and I included, but it just sounds really weird when you say it out loud.  Especially since when most people think of multi-millionaires they think of extravagant wealth and not people comparison shopping to find the best deal on toilet paper :P

I was almost a multimillionaire in 2013 ($1.9M) and it still doesn't feel real!  Nothing significant has changed for us since we bought our $315k house in 2009, other than now we buy cars new instead of used (for the improved safety features and reliability)...

I still dream of having a million dollar spending spree at some point :)  It's wild to know that I'd still be FI afterwards.

Ooh, me too!

You're right. The numbers on the page doesn't really mean anything to me, but the thought of taking $1M and turning it into experiences or stuff is kind of a mind blowing concept.

I could choose from say a Mcmansion, several highs end sports cars, a few round the World trips in first class.

In fact if I don't do this we are going to be a couple of very wealthy rotting corpses!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 14, 2023, 10:53:41 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 14, 2023, 10:41:50 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 14, 2023, 09:49:29 AM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on June 14, 2023, 09:14:24 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 13, 2023, 08:10:12 PM

This reminds me of a time we went out to eat back in 2013.

DW (HRH) was looking at the menu and mused.. "hmm I wonder if I should have a margarita?"

I replied "Well we ARE millionaires". Now DW had NO IDEA we were worth anything close to that amount as she doesn't do money.

The look on her face with her jaw hanging open we classic.

She then followed up with .. "Never tell me that stuff again".....No she wasn't kidding!

Every person in this thread is technically a "multi-millionaire", my wife and I included, but it just sounds really weird when you say it out loud.  Especially since when most people think of multi-millionaires they think of extravagant wealth and not people comparison shopping to find the best deal on toilet paper :P

I was almost a multimillionaire in 2013 ($1.9M) and it still doesn't feel real!  Nothing significant has changed for us since we bought our $315k house in 2009, other than now we buy cars new instead of used (for the improved safety features and reliability)...

I still dream of having a million dollar spending spree at some point :)  It's wild to know that I'd still be FI afterwards.

Ooh, me too!

You're right. The numbers on the page doesn't really mean anything to me, but the thought of taking $1M and turning it into experiences or stuff is kind of a mind blowing concept.

I could choose from say a Mcmansion, several highs end sports cars, a few round the World trips in first class.

In fact if I don't do this we are going to be a couple of very wealthy rotting corpses!

Definitely a nice Mustachian Problem to have

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on June 14, 2023, 02:15:27 PM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on June 14, 2023, 09:14:24 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 13, 2023, 08:10:12 PM

This reminds me of a time we went out to eat back in 2013.

DW (HRH) was looking at the menu and mused.. "hmm I wonder if I should have a margarita?"

I replied "Well we ARE millionaires". Now DW had NO IDEA we were worth anything close to that amount as she doesn't do money.

The look on her face with her jaw hanging open we classic.

She then followed up with .. "Never tell me that stuff again".....No she wasn't kidding!

Every person in this thread is technically a "multi-millionaire", my wife and I included, but it just sounds really weird when you say it out loud.  Especially since when most people think of multi-millionaires they think of extravagant wealth and not people comparison shopping to find the best deal on toilet paper :P

Exactly the way I feel...especially since we are doing the "stealth wealth" thing.  We also live in a relatively modest, but small and nice to live in, neighborhood.

If you take the house into account, we are somewhat near the upper end of this threads upper end.  And that is not taking into account my wife's pension value.   Yet it doesn't seem real...and we are still working ( for now ).  I will admit I'm having a REALLY tough time at work, motivation wise, and it is showing....so I may not have that much time left there...lol.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 14, 2023, 02:45:31 PM

@farmecologist Yup I think most of us that retired from a job that we learned to dislike felt the pain of the last few months. For me this was going back to work after the holiday break in Jan 2014.

I had an 80 mile one way commute in the middle of Winter. The workplace was toxic and I had decided to work until April of that year .. I wanted to max out the 401k, save some cash etc.

That morning I got dragged into a room where the directors unloaded all sorts of complaints on me, none of which had any basis in fact.

Bottom line they gave me a "corrective action plan" which comes with a "buyout option" which amounted to about 4 months of salary.. Hmm.

I think I might have left scorch marks on the carpet as I headed for the door..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 14, 2023, 04:40:08 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 14, 2023, 02:45:31 PM

@farmecologist Yup I think most of us that retired from a job that we learned to dislike felt the pain of the last few months. For me this was going back to work after the holiday break in Jan 2014.

I had an 80 mile one way commute in the middle of Winter. The workplace was toxic and I had decided to work until April of that year .. I wanted to max out the 401k, save some cash etc.

That morning I got dragged into a room where the directors unloaded all sorts of complaints on me, none of which had any basis in fact.

Bottom line they gave me a "corrective action plan" which comes with a "buyout option" which amounted to about 4 months of salary.. Hmm.

I think I might have left scorch marks on the carpet as I headed for the door..:)

I like it.  I still get these people enticing me to go back to work.  It was never the work that I disliked so much.  It was people as you described above.  Even when I got along with them, it disturbed me how they would pick a "target" and make that person's life hell.  I think you've helped convince me not to follow up on the return to work thing.  As Bachman Turner Overdrive sang, "I love to work at nothing all day."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 14, 2023, 08:41:09 PM

@pecunia Actually the short term contracts I have taken after I retired have been some of the most fun work (and best paid) I have ever done.

The reason I think is 1) the jobs were not with the company I retired from, but were with the company I left in 2012 to join said toxic company. and 2), I didn't need the jobs so I didn't go back unless they paid me what I wanted.. i.e significantly more than I was earning previously. 3) if the job didn't sound like fun I simply didn't take it.

So while I get a lot of flak for going back to work its certainly been enoyable.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 14, 2023, 08:44:01 PM

Every time I interact with out of office people at work.  Yeah I’m retiring in 25 months.

Them what are you doing for your retirement job.

Me volunteering on trails, I’ll be done working for a living.

Happy day, my TSP has 2 commas again.  It first had 2 commas just before the most recent downturn in 2022.  Meh, due to pension considerations I’m still going to be way overfunded for RE at 47.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 14, 2023, 11:33:34 PM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on June 14, 2023, 09:14:24 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 13, 2023, 08:10:12 PM

This reminds me of a time we went out to eat back in 2013.

DW (HRH) was looking at the menu and mused.. "hmm I wonder if I should have a margarita?"

I replied "Well we ARE millionaires". Now DW had NO IDEA we were worth anything close to that amount as she doesn't do money.

The look on her face with her jaw hanging open we classic.

She then followed up with .. "Never tell me that stuff again".....No she wasn't kidding!

Every person in this thread is technically a "multi-millionaire", my wife and I included, but it just sounds really weird when you say it out loud.  Especially since when most people think of multi-millionaires they think of extravagant wealth and not people comparison shopping to find the best deal on toilet paper :P

We've been in Aspen for almost two weeks. If ever a place was rigged to make you feel poor, this is it. I have fought back by shopping at a place called "The Motherlode Mercantile", located conveniently at the Pitkin County Dump er, Recycling Center. Today we went twice. Highly recommend!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on June 15, 2023, 11:20:21 AM

We crossed a new milestone - $3 million NW or $3.7 million with primary residence equity and college savings.  I thought I'd scale back at $1M, then $1.5M, then I thought full retirement at $2.5M.  We're still working, though and enjoying the social interaction, savings rate, and several big travel opportunities this year.  I'm reluctant to pull the plug with uncertain inflation, multiple college educations coming at us in the next ten years, and a general unease about converting the NW into cash flow.  That said, as I approach the mid-century mark, we have little downside risk in our investments other than general market risk, and we have a couple of investments with nice upside potential.  Social Security is out there for (possible) assistance as the kids finish college, and it's possible we could inherit something, though that doesn't factor into any planning (and frankly we'd like to see less miserliness and more fun for themselves).

I read the stories from @Exflyboy and others about how their NW shockingly keeps increasing even after RE, but I'm still nervous.  How do you overcome the inertia that just keeps the income flowing in?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on June 15, 2023, 11:54:40 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on June 15, 2023, 11:20:21 AM

How do you overcome the inertia that just keeps the income flowing in?

Are you asking about how to decide to FIRE when in a cushy job situation and it's easier to just keep working and earning?

Or are you asking about how to spend down the stash after FIRE and avoid having it pile up even higher?

Or something else?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 15, 2023, 11:57:40 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on June 15, 2023, 11:20:21 AM

We crossed a new milestone - $3 million NW or $3.7 million with primary residence equity and college savings. 

I read the stories from @Exflyboy and others about how their NW shockingly keeps increasing even after RE, but I'm still nervous.  How do you overcome the inertia that just keeps the income flowing in?

Otherwise known as "OMY syndrome".. Yes Its a thing. You are almost in exactly the same place we are NW wise, albeit we do have a couple of smallish pensions in addition, plus we don't have any kids.

It sounds like you are enjoying work so its not all bad if you continue working. Now you could maybe go part time or pick up some contract work like I have over the last 9 years of not having a proper grown up job.

The inertia, yeah.. Honestly the only thing you can do is to swallow hard and jump (sounds like my first skydive.. after 500 jumps its a non issue).

I can tell you I first quit at $1.3M plus the paid off house. Our NW has done nothing but continue to increase, mainly due to the bull market. It has never stopped me worrying about not having enough $$, but as I look at it I am far more likely to be scrambling to avoid the massive tax hit that RMDs will bring in 14 years from now.

But I'll put that in the "good problem to have" category...:)

One thing to note.. I assume you have a significant part of your stash in after tax savings.. AKA brokerage accounts? The reason being is when you quit you will want to go on the affordable care act and living on after tax "income" means your taxable income can be wound down to very low levels which translates into cheap health insurance.

We pay less than $3/month (at 61 and 58) for our high deductible (HSA) Bronze plan... I.e we get a $1600/month subsidy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on June 15, 2023, 12:12:07 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 14, 2023, 04:40:08 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 14, 2023, 02:45:31 PM

@farmecologist Yup I think most of us that retired from a job that we learned to dislike felt the pain of the last few months. For me this was going back to work after the holiday break in Jan 2014.

I had an 80 mile one way commute in the middle of Winter. The workplace was toxic and I had decided to work until April of that year .. I wanted to max out the 401k, save some cash etc.

That morning I got dragged into a room where the directors unloaded all sorts of complaints on me, none of which had any basis in fact.

Bottom line they gave me a "corrective action plan" which comes with a "buyout option" which amounted to about 4 months of salary.. Hmm.

I think I might have left scorch marks on the carpet as I headed for the door..:)

I like it.  I still get these people enticing me to go back to work.  It was never the work that I disliked so much.  It was people as you described above.  Even when I got along with them, it disturbed me how they would pick a "target" and make that person's life hell.  I think you've helped convince me not to follow up on the return to work thing.  As Bachman Turner Overdrive sang, "I love to work at nothing all day."

It is not necessarily the people I work with...although some of them are "married to the job boomers" who complain about how overworked they are but don't take anywhere near all of their vacation...lol.  Let's just say I (jokingly) give them crap about it whenever I hear them whine about it.  They just laugh it off.  At least in my megacorp, there really is a "boomer" vs. the younger generations divide on how work/life is viewed ( and I'm not one that really likes to do the "generations" thing ).  And it isn't healthy for the boomer types. 

The thing I REALLY dislike in my megacorp ( and I suspect many other megacorps ), is the F'n insufferable HR department that call all the shots.   They are even starting to use more "AI tools" to target who to pick on for later termination.  They are also starting to really push the "high performance culture" BS more and more lately.  Nope....I don't need that stress and feel bad for all of the younger tenure people.   I'm doing what I'm doing and if they don't like it...F'em.   I must say that it is quite nice to have "FU money" if it comes to that! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on June 15, 2023, 12:21:03 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on June 15, 2023, 11:20:21 AM

We crossed a new milestone - $3 million NW or $3.7 million with primary residence equity and college savings. 

Congratulations!

Quote

I read the stories from @Exflyboy and others about how their NW shockingly keeps increasing even after RE, but I'm still nervous.  How do you overcome the inertia that just keeps the income flowing in?

1. The last few years have been amazing for returns so unless you’ve been using some stupid withdrawal rate like > 7%, you’ve probably seen your funds go up over the past decade. Dont set yourself up for disappointment if that doesn’t happen for you.
2. If you have a gig where it’s hard to go back after leaving, it’s a lot different than if you can pick up more work at the same pay in a year or two. If you’re in the latter category just think of what you're doing as taking a leave of absence. If you’re in the former, just do the math and see if you really need the extra $$$ OMY would provide.
3. You can repeat to yourself the mantra, “After a point it’s just adding on to the pile”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 15, 2023, 01:13:05 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on June 15, 2023, 11:20:21 AM

We crossed a new milestone - $3 million NW or $3.7 million with primary residence equity and college savings.  I thought I'd scale back at $1M, then $1.5M, then I thought full retirement at $2.5M.  We're still working, though and enjoying the social interaction, savings rate, and several big travel opportunities this year.  I'm reluctant to pull the plug with uncertain inflation, multiple college educations coming at us in the next ten years, and a general unease about converting the NW into cash flow.  That said, as I approach the mid-century mark, we have little downside risk in our investments other than general market risk, and we have a couple of investments with nice upside potential.  Social Security is out there for (possible) assistance as the kids finish college, and it's possible we could inherit something, though that doesn't factor into any planning (and frankly we'd like to see less miserliness and more fun for themselves).

I read the stories from @Exflyboy and others about how their NW shockingly keeps increasing even after RE, but I'm still nervous.  How do you overcome the inertia that just keeps the income flowing in?

How do you overcome this?  Ole Benny Franklin said there are two certainties in life, "Death and Taxes."  Every hour you work brings you one more hour towards your death.  Every dollar you make is taxed.  Every year you work, you give many months of your life to the government via your taxes.  Do you want to do what they want you to do with your time or what you want to do with your time?  Which is worth more, more stuff or more rewarding experiences?  Think about that a little and then read about half a dozen Mr. Money Mustache articles that he has written.  The fact that you are posting herein shows you are already stepping in what many consider a preferred direction.

By the way, I am not one of these libertarian anti government types, just a pro me type.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on June 15, 2023, 03:18:54 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 15, 2023, 01:13:05 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on June 15, 2023, 11:20:21 AM

We crossed a new milestone - $3 million NW or $3.7 million with primary residence equity and college savings.  I thought I'd scale back at $1M, then $1.5M, then I thought full retirement at $2.5M.  We're still working, though and enjoying the social interaction, savings rate, and several big travel opportunities this year.  I'm reluctant to pull the plug with uncertain inflation, multiple college educations coming at us in the next ten years, and a general unease about converting the NW into cash flow.  That said, as I approach the mid-century mark, we have little downside risk in our investments other than general market risk, and we have a couple of investments with nice upside potential.  Social Security is out there for (possible) assistance as the kids finish college, and it's possible we could inherit something, though that doesn't factor into any planning (and frankly we'd like to see less miserliness and more fun for themselves).

I read the stories from @Exflyboy and others about how their NW shockingly keeps increasing even after RE, but I'm still nervous.  How do you overcome the inertia that just keeps the income flowing in?

How do you overcome this?  Ole Benny Franklin said there are two certainties in life, "Death and Taxes."  Every hour you work brings you one more hour towards your death.  Every dollar you make is taxed.  Every year you work, you give many months of your life to the government via your taxes.  Do you want to do what they want you to do with your time or what you want to do with your time?  Which is worth more, more stuff or more rewarding experiences?  Think about that a little and then read about half a dozen Mr. Money Mustache articles that he has written.  The fact that you are posting herein shows you are already stepping in what many consider a preferred direction.

By the way, I am not one of these libertarian anti government types, just a pro me type.

I went back to work for similar to bolded reasons, right choice but I am over it.   I've padded the college accounts, set aside some funds for big family trips, money for a replacement car.   I thought I would go at it for 1-3 years but now I am think calling it in September.  Why not now?  I could but we have a bunch of larger expenses between now and the and a long expensive vacay....so while the expenses are mostly part of our normal budget and the vacay has already been covered I figure why not get a paid vacation.

The people are fine, they type of work is fine, but I have come to the realization that it's just too many hours of my life to to be doing something on someone else's schedule.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 15, 2023, 05:12:28 PM

I too find myself still showing up to work although I've sailed past several milestones that qualify as 'enough' and 'more than enough'...  I have taken a very relaxed approach toward work now that Covid is over, in hopes that maybe I'll get a severance package, but it appears that I'm still making my employer happy enough.  So nowadays we're at a balance where I'm probably doing a bit more work than I should, but my employer is probably paying me more than they should.  Throw in the free health care for the family (my college-age son is now 20, daughter will be a senior and bound for college soon), the elevated bonus and long term incentives I'd have to give up, and the increase in my allowable 401k contributions...  I guess I'm still coming out ahead on the deal.  But I do tell DW that I look forward to her pulling the plug so we can travel the world together once the kids are both in college...  We can do a lot of travel while I'm still working, including an expat assignment, but she's an elementary school teacher.  She has taught at international schools though...  who knows.

I take a very creative view toward paying taxes - I view it as my charitable, 'for the greater good' placeholder until I can devote more time to these endeavors.  I know I should be more philanthropic given all my good fortune and all the need in the world, but working extra and paying taxes scratches some of this itch in the meantime.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 17, 2023, 07:55:05 AM

As one of the "poorer" member of this thread (~$2.4M invested; ~$2.9M net -- thanks to the month of June!), given my experiences, I personally would find it difficult to pull the trigger before the children are through school (college or otherwise) and showing clear signs of stability and happiness in their chosen career path.  I speak from experience as I have situations where 4 years turns into 5 years for one and another where there was not happiness with the career path once they graduated and found themselves wanting to go back to school for multiple years to find a different profession.   If I were to do the math (which I don't want to), I would guesstimate that I spent well over $100K above and beyond undergraduate costs on trying to remedy these situations, and I'm still not done with all of the fallout from it.  For many on this thread, these types of numbers won't matter I suppose.

My point in all of this is that, at the ages of 18-25 a lot can happen that changes things....and you need to consider what approach you will take in the event things don't go as planned/hoped.  Will you swoop in an patch things up financially -- or will you say "I've done my part, now you're on your own?"    I have probably over-done it on the side of being there for the bail-outs of every bad situation, my decision, I'll live with it.   

Congrats to all on the accomplishments above!   I am thrilled to see the numbers moving in the right direction again! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 17, 2023, 12:14:44 PM

@arcturus Oh boy yeah you are virtually destitute!

I feel the same way though as I "Only" have $2.9M invested as of yesterday... Sometimes I wonder how I will make ends meet...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on June 17, 2023, 12:35:12 PM

Quote from: arcturus on June 17, 2023, 07:55:05 AM

My point in all of this is that, at the ages of 18-25 a lot can happen that changes things....and you need to consider what approach you will take in the event things don't go as planned/hoped.  Will you swoop in an patch things up financially -- or will you say "I've done my part, now you're on your own?"    I have probably over-done it on the side of being there for the bail-outs of every bad situation, my decision, I'll live with it.   

I did a bit of bail outs, a bit of "you made your bed, now lie in it".

I also FIREd before my kids were through that stage.  My deal with myself was that I wouldn't let my FIRE impact their education.  I had what I thought would be enough.  But if they needed more, then I would pay for it out of my FIRE stash (rather than / in addition to their college stash).  If that broke my FIRE plan I would go back to work.

There were ups and downs along the way financially but in the end collectively it looks like they're going to be under budget overall.  And my own FIRE stash has grown due to 2016 being so far a good FIRE year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 17, 2023, 01:44:37 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 17, 2023, 12:35:12 PM

Quote from: arcturus on June 17, 2023, 07:55:05 AM

My point in all of this is that, at the ages of 18-25 a lot can happen that changes things....and you need to consider what approach you will take in the event things don't go as planned/hoped.  Will you swoop in an patch things up financially -- or will you say "I've done my part, now you're on your own?"    I have probably over-done it on the side of being there for the bail-outs of every bad situation, my decision, I'll live with it.   

I did a bit of bail outs, a bit of "you made your bed, now lie in it".

I also FIREd before my kids were through that stage.  My deal with myself was that I wouldn't let my FIRE impact their education.  I had what I thought would be enough.  But if they needed more, then I would pay for it out of my FIRE stash (rather than / in addition to their college stash).  If that broke my FIRE plan I would go back to work.

There were ups and downs along the way financially but in the end collectively it looks like they're going to be under budget overall.  And my own FIRE stash has grown due to 2016 being so far a good FIRE year.

Makes a lot of sense, and that option of going back to work is always out there I guess.  And yes, I've got to turn the corner on the "I've done my part, the rest is up to you..."    I'm almost there, but not quite. 

And again, given some of the numbers I've seen on this thread, I'm not sure a $100-250K surprise would matter much! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 17, 2023, 01:47:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 17, 2023, 12:14:44 PM

@arcturus Oh boy yeah you are virtually destitute!

I feel the same way though as I "Only" have $2.9M invested as of yesterday... Sometimes I wonder how I will make ends meet...:)

Start selling the furniture!!  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on June 17, 2023, 03:35:41 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 15, 2023, 11:57:40 AM

One thing to note.. I assume you have a significant part of your stash in after tax savings.. AKA brokerage accounts? The reason being is when you quit you will want to go on the affordable care act and living on after tax "income" means your taxable income can be wound down to very low levels which translates into cheap health insurance.

Actually we have about 2/3 in a mix of pre-tax retirement accounts or Roth accounts, but mostly pre-tax.  The other 1/3 is a mix of real estate, after-tax savings, or specific equity investments (not stocks).  The cleanest way to take money out would be substantially equal payments, but that feels like eating up equity.  If we had put more into real estate, we could have a cash flow stream off of that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on June 17, 2023, 03:41:56 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 15, 2023, 11:54:40 AM

A. Are you asking about how to decide to FIRE when in a cushy job situation and it's easier to just keep working and earning?

C. Or something else?

Regarding A, yes, how do you get over the psychological hurdle?

And C, is there a way to translate index fund investments into something that kicks off cash, so you're essentially spending the dividends rather than eating up the principal?  Or do you just steadily eat away at the principal (sell "shares") but at such a low withdrawal rate that the remaining share increase in total value more than what you sold?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 17, 2023, 03:58:38 PM

After tax brokerage sock funds are throwing off dividends which are subject to cap gains tax. Now if you are in the 12% tax bracket or less then tax divs are taxed at zero%.. Nice

Now you can sell some of those assets to create more "income" and as long as 12% or less then this is also at zero%.

Remember also that cap gains = selling price minus buy price, so You can end up with a lot more cash and little actual cap gains.

For us we typically spend about $50k+, then contribute to our HSA's and end up with a taxable income of around $32k. This then means we get about a $1600/month subsidy on our healthcare. This year we spend less than $3 per month.. Yes 3 dollars!

This is why prior to Medicare age it makes much more sense to live on after tax funds.

Now you should have just stocks (index funds etc) in after tax.. Any bonds should be in pre-tax. If you are worried about asset allocation, simply sell some bonds in pre- tax and buy the same amount of stocks in pre-tax... i.e the same amount you sold in AFTER tax to generate your living expenses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 17, 2023, 05:18:52 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 17, 2023, 03:58:38 PM

After tax brokerage sock funds are throwing off dividends which are subject to cap gains tax. Now if you are in the 12% tax bracket or less then tax divs are taxed at zero%.. Nice

Now you can sell some of those assets to create more "income" and as long as 12% or less then this is also at zero%.

Remember also that cap gains = selling price minus buy price, so You can end up with a lot more cash and little actual cap gains.

For us we typically spend about $50k+, then contribute to our HSA's and end up with a taxable income of around $32k. This then means we get about a $1600/month subsidy on our healthcare. This year we spend less than $3 per month.. Yes 3 dollars!

This is why prior to Medicare age it makes much more sense to live on after tax funds.

Now you should have just stocks (index funds etc) in after tax.. Any bonds should be in pre-tax. If you are worried about asset allocation, simply sell some bonds in pre- tax and buy the same amount of stocks in pre-tax... i.e the same amount you sold in AFTER tax to generate your living expenses.

It's kind of odd.  In a few years, you will have Medicare and pay much more.  It's supposed to be the other way around.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 17, 2023, 05:42:20 PM

@pecunia Yeah I reckon that Medicare ($164*2) with an insurance plan to cover the 20% (about $700) will be roughly my entire Social security check!..

 (one third of my SS, that I earned gets stolen because I had the audacity to contribute to a private UK pension plan before I even knew where the USA was)

This assumes that MC and insurance is paid after tax.. But I don't know how that works.

How anybody hopes to retire on just SS alone is beyond me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 17, 2023, 05:50:05 PM

Quote from: pecunia on June 17, 2023, 05:18:52 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 17, 2023, 03:58:38 PM

After tax brokerage sock funds are throwing off dividends which are subject to cap gains tax. Now if you are in the 12% tax bracket or less then tax divs are taxed at zero%.. Nice

Now you can sell some of those assets to create more "income" and as long as 12% or less then this is also at zero%.

Remember also that cap gains = selling price minus buy price, so You can end up with a lot more cash and little actual cap gains.

For us we typically spend about $50k+, then contribute to our HSA's and end up with a taxable income of around $32k. This then means we get about a $1600/month subsidy on our healthcare. This year we spend less than $3 per month.. Yes 3 dollars!

This is why prior to Medicare age it makes much more sense to live on after tax funds.

Now you should have just stocks (index funds etc) in after tax.. Any bonds should be in pre-tax. If you are worried about asset allocation, simply sell some bonds in pre- tax and buy the same amount of stocks in pre-tax... i.e the same amount you sold in AFTER tax to generate your living expenses.

It's kind of odd.  In a few years, you will have Medicare and pay much more.  It's supposed to be the other way around.

I have been given the impression that Medicare is better (more widely accepted, covers more, and no more figuring out healthcare plan stuff) than ACA.  You are probably referring to buying the additional Part D (prescription) coverage (or Medicare Advantage, which can be scammy) or Medigap (also can be scammy)... 

I'm no expert on this stuff, still have 15 years and several trillion more dollars of accruing unfunded government liability before it's my turn.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 17, 2023, 05:57:24 PM

@EscapeVelocity2020 The problem with Medicare is the 20% UNLIMITED exposure on part B. With some oral chemo's costing like $1M. year.. Umm year, not so much!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on June 17, 2023, 07:05:12 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on June 17, 2023, 03:41:56 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 15, 2023, 11:54:40 AM

A. Are you asking about how to decide to FIRE when in a cushy job situation and it's easier to just keep working and earning?

C. Or something else?

Regarding A, yes, how do you get over the psychological hurdle?

And C, is there a way to translate index fund investments into something that kicks off cash, so you're essentially spending the dividends rather than eating up the principal?  Or do you just steadily eat away at the principal (sell "shares") but at such a low withdrawal rate that the remaining share increase in total value more than what you sold?

Others have sort of answered A, but I'll give you my answers:

First, you have to decide for yourself that you have enough money, and that you're some combination of sick and tired of working, or have other stuff you'd rather do.  To determine I had enough, I had to read and understand a lot of the research on the 4% rule AND I had to run my own numbers through a bunch of calculators and come out OK AND I had to have the example of my Dad retiring AND I worked two years longer AND I wrote up my FIRE plan and had it reviewed AND I documented about 35 contingency plans.  Other folks just say "Oh, I'll make it work somehow" and quit their job without any research.  It's really an individual decision, and you'll figure out what you need and how much margin you need.

Second, it does help to realize that your time on Earth is finite and limited and the last X years of your life might be more survival than living it up and your opportunity to do those things you've always wanted to do is limited.

...

As for C:

First, index funds will throw off some dividends and capital gains distributions.  Most people spend those because they're taxable income anyway.  A few people have such a low withdrawal rate that they can just live off those dividends.

But for me and most others, we do also sell off some shares from time to time for additional cash flow.  And you're right, what ideally and most often happens is that the remaining shares grow in value to offset those share sales.

I avoid making a strong distinction between income such as dividends and the principal, and am a "total return" investor.  In fact, I prefer lower dividends because then I can control my tax situation better.  Reading about investing for total return may provide you with some insights.

HTH.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 18, 2023, 03:06:27 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 17, 2023, 07:05:12 PM

Others have sort of answered A, but I'll give you my answers:

First, you have to decide for yourself that you have enough money, and that you're some combination of sick and tired of working, or have other stuff you'd rather do.  To determine I had enough, I had to read and understand a lot of the research on the 4% rule AND I had to run my own numbers through a bunch of calculators and come out OK AND I had to have the example of my Dad retiring AND I worked two years longer AND I wrote up my FIRE plan and had it reviewed AND I documented about 35 contingency plans.  Other folks just say "Oh, I'll make it work somehow" and quit their job without any research.  It's really an individual decision, and you'll figure out what you need and how much margin you need.

Second, it does help to realize that your time on Earth is finite and limited and the last X years of your life might be more survival than living it up and your opportunity to do those things you've always wanted to do is limited.

...

As for C:

First, index funds will throw off some dividends and capital gains distributions.  Most people spend those because they're taxable income anyway.  A few people have such a low withdrawal rate that they can just live off those dividends.

But for me and most others, we do also sell off some shares from time to time for additional cash flow.  And you're right, what ideally and most often happens is that the remaining shares grow in value to offset those share sales.

I avoid making a strong distinction between income such as dividends and the principal, and am a "total return" investor.  In fact, I prefer lower dividends because then I can control my tax situation better.  Reading about investing for total return may provide you with some insights.

HTH.

Regarding dividends, if you want a long and somewhat enjoyable Sunday read, take a look at this ongoing discussion on Bogleheads on this very topic : https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=406429

My own position is that dividends are just a part of the overall returns. As Nisiprius says (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7310789#p7310789)

Quote

"I got money and I didn't need to sell shares" sounds convincing, but it is an illusion.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on June 18, 2023, 03:00:43 PM

That is an entertaining thread. I have been participating a bit. It’s hopefully been helpful to a few misguided folks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 18, 2023, 05:00:12 PM

I'm not going to read the whole thread, but hopefully someone pointed out that high dividend yield stocks (like Exxon) and low dividend stocks (like Nvidia) have a reason they are that way.  Yes, we are all total return investors in the idea that we want the highest risk adjusted return, but that means different levels of dividend yield stocks are preferable to different investors.

I personally think retirees holding VOO don't realize how high their exposure is to a relative handful of tech companies (https://www.slickcharts.com/sp500) and I own some high dividend yield stocks to help offset this.  It has cost me some gains in the up years, but counteracted my losses in 2022.  And that's exactly what I'm after, a smoother ride that is still up and to the right.  If I were to become incapacitated, my family is less likely to experience a harrowing drawdown and hopefully they too will 'stay the course'.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 18, 2023, 05:10:43 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 17, 2023, 05:42:20 PM

@pecunia Yeah I reckon that Medicare ($164*2) with an insurance plan to cover the 20% (about $700) will be roughly my entire Social security check!..

 (one third of my SS, that I earned gets stolen because I had the audacity to contribute to a private UK pension plan before I even knew where the USA was)

This assumes that MC and insurance is paid after tax.. But I don't know how that works.

How anybody hopes to retire on just SS alone is beyond me.

Yes - Supplementary Insurance is required and drug insurance.  You can get "Medicare Advantage," for less money but if you get a serious illness it can be bad.

Your UK retirement should be able to help.  In fact, you should be able to hop on a plane for serious stuff and get it taken care of over there.

Your Medicare premium is based on income.  I've not signed for SS yet, but I'm quite sure it will cover the Medicare.

The best thing is to take long hikes in that beautiful Oregon countryside to stay healthy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: achvfi on June 19, 2023, 11:22:58 AM

Pro tips request

Hello 2-4 and beyond people,

My in-laws are in early 60s and FIL is retired and MIL is planning to work next 5 years with 40-50 K income.

In their portfolio they have about $ 1.7 million in T-IRA and they have more than that in other accounts. So they have funds to pay taxes to do Roth conversions.

At 70 they expect social security payments to cover most if not all of their annual expenses.

Between MIL income and dividends and cap gains they are at the edge of 12% tax bracket. They also have some RMDs from inherited IRAs.

Question is:

Is it worth it to cross over into 22% to start converting T-IRA investments to Roth IRA.

22% tax bracket (+5% state tax) + long term capital gains increasing from 0% tax to 15% on the dividends + Medicare IRRMA increases

Are there any blind spots we need to keep in mind?

Some of you might be in the same boat as my family. What is your strategy to reduce huge RMDs and its tax implications when you reach 73-75?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on June 19, 2023, 01:14:37 PM

Quote from: achvfi on June 19, 2023, 11:22:58 AM

Pro tips request

Hello 2-4 and beyond people,

My in-laws are in early 60s and FIL is retired and MIL is planning to work next 5 years with 40-50 K income.

In their portfolio they have about $ 1.7 million in T-IRA and they have more than that in other accounts. So they have funds to pay taxes to do Roth conversions.

At 70 they expect social security payments to cover most if not all of their annual expenses.

Between MIL income and dividends and cap gains they are at the edge of 12% tax bracket. They also have some RMDs from inherited IRAs.

Question is:

Is it worth it to cross over into 22% to start converting T-IRA investments to Roth IRA.

22% tax bracket (+5% state tax) + long term capital gains increasing from 0% tax to 15% on the dividends + Medicare IRRMA increases

Are there any blind spots we need to keep in mind?

Some of you might be in the same boat as my family. What is your strategy to reduce huge RMDs and its tax implications when you reach 73-75?

There are a lot of things to keep in mind, but two that might apply to your particular situation are any ACA subsidies they may receive between now and 65, and the SS tax hump that might hit them if they're in the income range where more income pushes more of their SS to be taxed.

I'd recommend getting a hold of the Case Study Spreadsheet and doing a proforma tax return for them for (a) the current year and (b) what they expect when they're both 73 and have to start RMDs and will also both have SS probably, plus any investment income (and any inherited RMDs that are still happening).  This way you can see what their marginal rate is across a wide range of Roth conversions and pick what makes sense.

You also get to decide what you think about the sunset of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act on 1/1/2026.  If nothing is done, rates and brackets will revert higher.  Something probably will be done but what that is is anyone's guess.

You'll probably find that Roth converting now at 22% federal, even though it seems high now, might be a bargain compared to their age 73 rate.

Other than Roth conversions, the only other knob I know to twist to help with RMDs is to suggest that your MIL stop work yesterday.  Someone's probably thought of that already though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: achvfi on June 19, 2023, 05:03:58 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 19, 2023, 01:14:37 PM

There are a lot of things to keep in mind, but two that might apply to your particular situation are any ACA subsidies they may receive between now and 65, and the SS tax hump that might hit them if they're in the income range where more income pushes more of their SS to be taxed.

I'd recommend getting a hold of the Case Study Spreadsheet and doing a proforma tax return for them for (a) the current year and (b) what they expect when they're both 73 and have to start RMDs and will also both have SS probably, plus any investment income (and any inherited RMDs that are still happening).  This way you can see what their marginal rate is across a wide range of Roth conversions and pick what makes sense.

You also get to decide what you think about the sunset of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act on 1/1/2026.  If nothing is done, rates and brackets will revert higher.  Something probably will be done but what that is is anyone's guess.

You'll probably find that Roth converting now at 22% federal, even though it seems high now, might be a bargain compared to their age 73 rate.

Other than Roth conversions, the only other knob I know to twist to help with RMDs is to suggest that your MIL stop work yesterday.  Someone's probably thought of that already though.

Thanks @secondcor521. It makes sense to spreadsheet all the income till next 30 years and compare tax rates and you are right it feels like 22% rate might be a bargain.

More information:
MIL is not comfortable to retire until they are on Medicare. They both are on her employer provided insurance and switch to Medicare when they reach the age. So ACA may not apply to them.

Based on rough calculations seems to me by 73 they may have close to $300000 in income including Social security, RMDs and cap gains and still be in 22 or 25% tax bracket.  Resulting more than 60K+ in taxes to start off.  But income will quickly escalate in the years following and so will higher taxes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on June 19, 2023, 05:28:01 PM

Quote from: achvfi on June 19, 2023, 05:03:58 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 19, 2023, 01:14:37 PM

There are a lot of things to keep in mind, but two that might apply to your particular situation are any ACA subsidies they may receive between now and 65, and the SS tax hump that might hit them if they're in the income range where more income pushes more of their SS to be taxed.

I'd recommend getting a hold of the Case Study Spreadsheet and doing a proforma tax return for them for (a) the current year and (b) what they expect when they're both 73 and have to start RMDs and will also both have SS probably, plus any investment income (and any inherited RMDs that are still happening).  This way you can see what their marginal rate is across a wide range of Roth conversions and pick what makes sense.

You also get to decide what you think about the sunset of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act on 1/1/2026.  If nothing is done, rates and brackets will revert higher.  Something probably will be done but what that is is anyone's guess.

You'll probably find that Roth converting now at 22% federal, even though it seems high now, might be a bargain compared to their age 73 rate.

Other than Roth conversions, the only other knob I know to twist to help with RMDs is to suggest that your MIL stop work yesterday.  Someone's probably thought of that already though.

Thanks @secondcor521. It makes sense to spreadsheet all the income till next 30 years and compare tax rates and you are right it feels like 22% rate might be a bargain.

More information:
MIL is not comfortable to retire until they are on Medicare. They both are on her employer provided insurance and switch to Medicare when they reach the age. So ACA may not apply to them.

Based on rough calculations seems to me by 73 they may have close to $300000 in income including Social security, RMDs and cap gains and still be in 22 or 25% tax bracket.  Resulting more than 60K+ in taxes to start off.  But income will quickly escalate in the years following and so will higher taxes.

It's hard to find information on what the 2026 rates would be absent legislation.  They're the 2017 rates increased by 10 years worth of CPI, I think.  Anyway, from what I could tell $300K might land them in the 28% or even a bit into the 33% post-TCJA world.  Hard to tell; if it's important you should research it further.

You might also want to look at the tax brackets after one of them passes away.  Depending on which one it is, how long, who the traditional IRA is bequeathed to, and what sources of income disappear, the survivor may be in a very high bracket.

The other scenario is when both of them pass and their IRA is inherited.  Usually in that situation the beneficiary has 10 years to empty it and that beneficiary may be in high earning years like their late 40's to late 50's.

I'd recommend MIL take another look at ACA, but I understand it just doesn't work for some people.  I hope she enjoys her job.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on June 19, 2023, 07:58:37 PM

So you could make the whole question a math problem.  If today, they were 72 and required to take RMDs, the first year is what's in 401k/tIRA type accounts and divide by 25.6.  With 1.7M, that's $66,400.  Say the 2 of them get social security and I'll just make an educated guess that for the 2 of them, they get $70k a year.  So with no "real" income or normal withdrawals, they're at $136,400.  I'm not a tax guy, but from the charts, that's well into the 22% current bracket that in 2026 will be 25% because of the sunset of current rates.  This does not take into account taxable account dividends or interest which can sneak up on you.  The other number they'll want to stay away from is the Medicare IRMMA number because if income exceeds it by $1, rates jump.  There's room but be sure about total income as the number for married filing jointly is $194k. 

I'm pretty sensitive to all this because I retire Friday, get a week of work insurance then on July 1st am on Medicare.  My income 2 years ago (what they look at) was over the IRMMA limit so I filed an appeal to get below that (which doubles the part B and increases drug plan) since my work income stops at 1/2 the year.  I do plan to Roth convert to a careful amount that is below the IRMMA limit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on June 19, 2023, 08:23:04 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 19, 2023, 07:58:37 PM

There's room but be sure about total income as the number for married filing jointly is $194k. 

The IRMAA limits are now increased yearly by some inflation factor.  It might be $194K this year but is likely to be several thousand dollars higher than that each subsequent year.

There are also multiple IRMAA brackets.

Note IRMAA is based on MAGI and the tax brackets are based on taxable income.  One generally has to subtract the standard or itemized deduuction from MAGI to get to taxable income.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 20, 2023, 02:47:20 AM

Quote from: achvfi on June 19, 2023, 11:22:58 AM

Is it worth it to cross over into 22% to start converting T-IRA investments to Roth IRA.

It's definitely worthwhile if you think you will be in an even higher tax bracket when the RMDs kick in. Kitces has a good article about this: https://www.kitces.com/blog/using-systematic-partial-roth-ira-conversions-and-recharacterizations-to-fill-the-lower-tax-bracket-buckets/

Like your in-laws, our spending needs can be met solely with our taxable accounts so I guess you can say we wildly overshot our savings goals. I am waiting for my wife to retire in order to start aggressive Roth conversions and plan to fill the 32% bucket (in Kitces' terminology) with Roth conversions. One good thing that has happened is that my RMD age is 75 so I have more runway to do these Roth conversions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 20, 2023, 07:57:57 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on June 19, 2023, 07:58:37 PM

So you could make the whole question a math problem.  If today, they were 72 and required to take RMDs, the first year is what's in 401k/tIRA type accounts and divide by 25.6.  With 1.7M, that's $66,400.  Say the 2 of them get social security and I'll just make an educated guess that for the 2 of them, they get $70k a year.  So with no "real" income or normal withdrawals, they're at $136,400.  I'm not a tax guy, but from the charts, that's well into the 22% current bracket that in 2026 will be 25% because of the sunset of current rates.  This does not take into account taxable account dividends or interest which can sneak up on you.  The other number they'll want to stay away from is the Medicare IRMMA number because if income exceeds it by $1, rates jump.  There's room but be sure about total income as the number for married filing jointly is $194k. 

I'm pretty sensitive to all this because I retire Friday, get a week of work insurance then on July 1st am on Medicare.  My income 2 years ago (what they look at) was over the IRMMA limit so I filed an appeal to get below that (which doubles the part B and increases drug plan) since my work income stops at 1/2 the year.  I do plan to Roth convert to a careful amount that is below the IRMMA limit.

Congratulations on your upcoming retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: achvfi on June 20, 2023, 03:40:04 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on June 19, 2023, 05:28:01 PM

It's hard to find information on what the 2026 rates would be absent legislation.  They're the 2017 rates increased by 10 years worth of CPI, I think.  Anyway, from what I could tell $300K might land them in the 28% or even a bit into the 33% post-TCJA world.  Hard to tell; if it's important you should research it further.

You might also want to look at the tax brackets after one of them passes away.  Depending on which one it is, how long, who the traditional IRA is bequeathed to, and what sources of income disappear, the survivor may be in a very high bracket.

The other scenario is when both of them pass and their IRA is inherited.  Usually in that situation the beneficiary has 10 years to empty it and that beneficiary may be in high earning years like their late 40's to late 50's.

I'd recommend MIL take another look at ACA, but I understand it just doesn't work for some people.  I hope she enjoys her job.

MIL is comfortable with Employer insurance and Medicare. She is skeptic towards ACA and it is not going to change. So overall it works out for them till they go on to Medicare. Its good problem to have I guess.

Taking into consideration

1) Growth in portfolio size over time and various income sources that will move them into higher higher tax brackets after 10 years
2) Risk of one passing away will move spouse into higher tax brackets.
3) It is possible they wont spend most of money that is distributed from RMDs, Dividends and capital gains. So it will be reinvested into brokerage account and will start distributing more dividends and cap gains.
4) Roth IRA is better for beneficiaries inheriting it. Brokerages are decent account too since there will be step up in basis.

It is looking like a better deal to start Roth conversions into 22% tax brackets.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on June 20, 2023, 08:22:35 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on August 27, 2021, 07:34:34 PM

We have a relatively large portfolio - even assuming inflated expense levels, we are probably at a 2.25% SWR - and could probably stop working...but I can't help from feeling uneasy when I read comments like these.

The market doesn't give you average returns year over year, it gives you actuals.  40 years from now we might look back and realize an 8% or 10% return.  Or, it could be more, or less, but year to year, it can vary wildly.  And it's hard to argue against folks that point to the correlations between a) high valuations like we have today and b) lower expected returns.

Undoubtedly, someone will read this that has been investing or invested in the markets for 20+ years.  I hope they weigh in with their perspective.

Personally, as a 41 year old, I didn't have "real" money in the market until 2011/2012, and the markets have been good to us all over that time period.  So, my track record is only 10 years.  If I pull the plug now, i could need to live off my portfolio for 50 years.

i don't post often, and love this group and the optimism they imbue, but when i see folks in other threads talking about buying stocks on margin, or selling their homes to invest in ARK funds, or counting on a 10% return, it makes me uneasy.

I don't think "this time is different" but I do think there are clouds on the horizon.  i suppose that's why i am at a <2.5% SWR...

sorry for the rant, i don't want to be the resident raincloud.
[/quote]
I haven't been back to this forum for a few years but interesting to see my last post. More interesting i suppose is that i changed nothing about my investing strategy and continued to invest in broad-based stock and bond index funds.  we are way beyond the "beyond" level and have decided to gradually increase consumption as we both enjoy our jobs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on June 20, 2023, 08:34:08 PM

Quote from: wannabe-stache on December 31, 2020, 06:41:16 PM

These numbers are in millions, and are baffling.  Our net worth increased $500k just in the last 3 months due to market appreciation.  that is more than 90+% of the US population makes in a year on income alone?

and i don't own TSLA, or Nikola, or any of the other high flyers. mostly index funds.

At the beginning of this year i was thinking "we are set".  Then, we gained nearly $2MM this year due to heavy rebalancing and large one-time bonuses.  and i still have one more year syndrome.

this isn't a humblebrag or even celebratory.  i am no happier than i was $2MM ago...i don't recall how much money i wanted to have when i was 20 or even 30 years old but it certainly wasn't $6MM.  and i think i was happier when i was poor and 25 years old...
   
Liquid Net Worth   Home   Change   Total
12/31/2016   $1.371    $0.56       $1.93
Jan-17   $1.444    $0.56    $79    $2.01
Feb-17   $1.467    $0.57    $29    $2.04
Mar-17   $1.535    $0.57    $73    $2.11
Apr-17   $1.552    $0.58    $24    $2.13
May-17   $1.600    $0.58    $50    $2.18
Jun-17   $1.636    $0.58    $38    $2.22
Jul-17   $1.741    $0.59    $107    $2.33
Aug-17   $1.788    $0.59    $49    $2.38
Sep-17   $1.821    $0.59    $35    $2.41
Oct-17   $2.019    $0.64    $243    $2.65
Nov-17   $2.100    $0.64    $83    $2.74
Dec-17   $2.167    $0.64    $70    $2.81
Jan-18   $2.228    $0.70    $123    $2.93
Feb-18   $2.196    $0.75    $15    $2.95
Mar-18   $2.216    $0.75    $20    $2.97
Apr-18   $2.279    $0.75    $63    $3.03
May-18   $2.340    $0.75    $61    $3.09
Jun-18   $2.395    $0.75    $55    $3.15
Jul-18   $2.445    $0.75    $50    $3.19
Aug-18   $2.495    $0.75    $50    $3.24
Sep-18   $2.500    $0.75    $5    $3.25
Oct-18   $2.417    $0.75    ($83)   $3.17
Nov-18   $2.482    $0.75    $65    $3.23
Dec-18   $2.406    $0.75    ($76)   $3.16
Jan-19   $2.594    $0.75    $188    $3.34
Feb-19   $2.685    $0.75    $91    $3.43
Mar-19   $2.700    $0.75    $15    $3.45
Apr-19   $2.872    $0.75    $172    $3.62
May-19   $2.806    $0.75    ($66)   $3.56
Jun-19   $2.935    $0.75    $129    $3.69
Jul-19   $2.993    $0.75    $58    $3.74
Aug-19   $3.006    $0.75    $12    $3.76
Sep-19   $3.035    $0.75    $30    $3.79
Oct-19   $3.124    $0.75    $88    $3.87
Nov-19   $3.186    $0.75    $62    $3.94
Dec-19   $3.357    $0.75    $171    $4.11
Jan-20   $3.590    $0.75    $232    $4.34
Feb-20   $3.453    $0.78    ($112)   $4.23
Mar-20   $2.863    $1.10    ($265)   $3.96
Apr-20   $3.546    $1.10    $685    $4.65
May-20   $3.726    $1.10    $181    $4.83
Jun-20   $3.811    $1.10    $87    $4.92
Jul-20   $4.028    $1.11    $218    $5.13
Aug-20   $4.242    $1.11    $217    $5.35
Sep-20   $4.473    $1.11    $232    $5.58
Oct-20   $4.460    $0.98    ($145)   $5.44
Nov-20   $4.893    $0.98    $435    $5.87
Dec-20   $5.062    $0.98    $171    $6.04

2022 wasn't fun but i equate it to adding logs to a fire that was dwindling...

   Liquid Net Worth   Home Equity   Change   Total
Dec-16   $1.371    $0.56       $1.93
Jan-17   $1.444    $0.56    $79    $2.01
Feb-17   $1.467    $0.57    $29    $2.04
Mar-17   $1.535    $0.57    $73    $2.11
Apr-17   $1.552    $0.58    $24    $2.13
May-17   $1.600    $0.58    $50    $2.18
Jun-17   $1.636    $0.58    $38    $2.22
Jul-17   $1.741    $0.59    $107    $2.33
Aug-17   $1.788    $0.59    $49    $2.38
Sep-17   $1.821    $0.59    $35    $2.41
Oct-17   $2.019    $0.64    $243    $2.65
Nov-17   $2.100    $0.64    $83    $2.74
Dec-17   $2.167    $0.64    $70    $2.81
Jan-18   $2.228    $0.70    $123    $2.93
Feb-18   $2.196    $0.75    $15    $2.95
Mar-18   $2.216    $0.75    $20    $2.97
Apr-18   $2.279    $0.75    $63    $3.03
May-18   $2.340    $0.75    $61    $3.09
Jun-18   $2.395    $0.75    $55    $3.15
Jul-18   $2.445    $0.75    $50    $3.19
Aug-18   $2.495    $0.75    $50    $3.24
Sep-18   $2.500    $0.75    $5    $3.25
Oct-18   $2.417    $0.75    ($83)   $3.17
Nov-18   $2.482    $0.75    $65    $3.23
Dec-18   $2.406    $0.75    ($76)   $3.16
Jan-19   $2.594    $0.75    $188    $3.34
Feb-19   $2.685    $0.75    $91    $3.43
Mar-19   $2.700    $0.75    $15    $3.45
Apr-19   $2.872    $0.75    $172    $3.62
May-19   $2.806    $0.75    ($66)   $3.56
Jun-19   $2.935    $0.75    $129    $3.69
Jul-19   $2.993    $0.75    $58    $3.74
Aug-19   $3.006    $0.75    $12    $3.76
Sep-19   $3.035    $0.75    $30    $3.79
Oct-19   $3.124    $0.75    $88    $3.87
Nov-19   $3.186    $0.75    $62    $3.94
Dec-19   $3.357    $0.75    $171    $4.11
Jan-20   $3.590    $0.75    $232    $4.34
Feb-20   $3.453    $0.78    ($112)   $4.23
Mar-20   $2.863    $1.10    ($265)   $3.96
Apr-20   $3.546    $1.10    $685    $4.65
May-20   $3.726    $1.10    $181    $4.83
Jun-20   $3.811    $1.10    $87    $4.92
Jul-20   $4.028    $1.11    $218    $5.13
Aug-20   $4.242    $1.11    $217    $5.35
Sep-20   $4.473    $1.11    $232    $5.58
Oct-20   $4.460    $0.98    ($145)   $5.44
Nov-20   $4.893    $0.98    $435    $5.87
Dec-20   $5.062    $0.98    $171    $6.04
Jan-21   $5.109    $0.98    $48    $6.09
Feb-21   $5.244    $0.98    $137    $6.23
Mar-21   $5.828    $0.99    $585    $6.81
Apr-21   $6.180    $1.03    $393    $7.21
May-21   $6.017    $1.43    $237    $7.44
Jun-21   $6.115    $1.43    $101    $7.55
Jul-21   $6.323    $1.43    $208    $7.75
Aug-21   $6.281    $1.51    $32    $7.79
Sep-21   $6.147    $1.56    ($82)   $7.70
Oct-21   $6.418    $1.56    $272    $7.98
Nov-21   $6.412    $1.63    $66    $8.04
Dec-21   $6.575    $1.63    $163    $8.21
Jan-22   $6.897    $1.25    ($58)   $8.15
Feb-22   $6.699    $1.25    ($198)   $7.95
Mar-22   $6.869    $1.25    $170    $8.12
Apr-22   $6.772    $1.25    ($97)   $8.02
May-22   $6.482    $1.25    ($290)   $7.73
Jun-22   $6.522    $1.30    $90    $7.82
Jul-22   $6.841    $1.30    $318    $8.14
Aug-22   $6.209    $1.50    ($432)   $7.71
Sep-22   $6.209    $1.50    $0    $7.71
Oct-22   $6.449    $1.50    $241    $7.95
Nov-22   $6.939    $1.50    $490    $8.44
Dec-22   $6.700    $1.50    ($239)   $8.20
Jan-23   $6.915    $1.50    $214    $8.41
Feb-23   $7.230    $1.50    $316    $8.73
Mar-23   $7.432    $1.50    $202    $8.93
Apr-23   $7.732    $1.50    $300    $9.23
May-23   $7.953    $1.50    $221    $9.45
Jun-23   $8.202    $1.50    $249    $9.70
   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on June 21, 2023, 07:25:15 AM

We all fret about making it work, will our portfolios last, do we have enough, etc etc.

On Monday I applied for SNAP and Medicaid for my disabled mom. She is down to her last couple thousand in her bank account at age 72. She gets paid $1500 a month in social security, half which goes to rent for her little one bed room apt.

I offered her my first floor bedroom. She continues to refuse - that’s a whole different conversation tho.

Our tail, worse case scenario is her reality, like many Americans.

All us in this thread will be fine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 09:29:36 AM

This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on June 21, 2023, 09:50:44 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 09:29:36 AM

This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.

Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on June 21, 2023, 10:23:31 AM

holy guacamole @wannabe-stache !!    I can only assume you have now FIRE'd or else you simply love your job and will likely only stop when it stops being fun!   Its difficult to conjure a scenario in which you're not ok, given these numbers!  Great work, btw!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 12:30:14 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 21, 2023, 09:50:44 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 09:29:36 AM

This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.

Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on June 21, 2023, 01:36:11 PM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 12:30:14 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 21, 2023, 09:50:44 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 09:29:36 AM

This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.

Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.

That sounds really cool.  I didn't realize you're living on a yacht.  We both really like the water and boating too, but our personalities aren't compatible enough to live on one full-time.  (The survivor would get lonely!)  The type of vessel you describe sounds like a worthy thing to work towards.  I wonder if the brand you want might be open to developing the systems you want considering the future is green.  Perhaps they just need the right client to approach them about it.  A full-time liveaboard couple seems like the type of people they would want to work with, considering the wealth of practical experience you could bring to the table.  Maybe your boat could act as their green development prototype, and you could work with them as ongoing systems monitoring consultants.  (Ask for a discounted boat in return for your services, they cover & install the electric motor, etc., and you call when it's acting up.  Offer them a 10-year durability monitoring plan.) 


:~)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 02:14:40 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 21, 2023, 01:36:11 PM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 12:30:14 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 21, 2023, 09:50:44 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 09:29:36 AM

This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.

Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.

That sounds really cool.  I didn't realize you're living on a yacht.  We both really like the water and boating too, but our personalities aren't compatible enough to live on one full-time.  (The survivor would get lonely!)  The type of vessel you describe sounds like a worthy thing to work towards.  I wonder if the brand you want might be open to developing the systems you want considering the future is green.  Perhaps they just need the right client to approach them about it.  A full-time liveaboard couple seems like the type of people they would want to work with, considering the wealth of practical experience you could bring to the table.  Maybe your boat could act as their green development prototype, and you could work with them as ongoing systems monitoring consultants.  (Ask for a discounted boat in return for your services, they cover & install the electric motor, etc., and you call when it's acting up.  Offer them a 10-year durability monitoring plan.) 


:~)

We just found out that a couple changed their plans and has one delivered to our very harbor since we started our vacation. They have are having some commissioning issues, so we might end up working with them and their dealer to help them out. This would give us an in to prove our value to the company, and it happens to be an electrical issue.

OR, in a dream world, sometimes folks with nice boats end up offloading them to friends for ridiculous deals and we could make the conversion over time...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on June 22, 2023, 08:55:49 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 02:14:40 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 21, 2023, 01:36:11 PM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 12:30:14 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 21, 2023, 09:50:44 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 09:29:36 AM

This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.

Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.

That sounds really cool.  I didn't realize you're living on a yacht.  We both really like the water and boating too, but our personalities aren't compatible enough to live on one full-time.  (The survivor would get lonely!)  The type of vessel you describe sounds like a worthy thing to work towards.  I wonder if the brand you want might be open to developing the systems you want considering the future is green.  Perhaps they just need the right client to approach them about it.  A full-time liveaboard couple seems like the type of people they would want to work with, considering the wealth of practical experience you could bring to the table.  Maybe your boat could act as their green development prototype, and you could work with them as ongoing systems monitoring consultants.  (Ask for a discounted boat in return for your services, they cover & install the electric motor, etc., and you call when it's acting up.  Offer them a 10-year durability monitoring plan.) 


:~)

We just found out that a couple changed their plans and has one delivered to our very harbor since we started our vacation. They have are having some commissioning issues, so we might end up working with them and their dealer to help them out. This would give us an in to prove our value to the company, and it happens to be an electrical issue.

OR, in a dream world, sometimes folks with nice boats end up offloading them to friends for ridiculous deals and we could make the conversion over time...

To people like me living in 3 bedroom Ranch homes, living on a boat sounds like the dream world.  Wow!  The closest I ever experienced to that was living in a trailer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on June 22, 2023, 09:00:57 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 22, 2023, 08:55:49 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 02:14:40 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 21, 2023, 01:36:11 PM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 12:30:14 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 21, 2023, 09:50:44 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 09:29:36 AM

This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.

Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.

That sounds really cool.  I didn't realize you're living on a yacht.  We both really like the water and boating too, but our personalities aren't compatible enough to live on one full-time.  (The survivor would get lonely!)  The type of vessel you describe sounds like a worthy thing to work towards.  I wonder if the brand you want might be open to developing the systems you want considering the future is green.  Perhaps they just need the right client to approach them about it.  A full-time liveaboard couple seems like the type of people they would want to work with, considering the wealth of practical experience you could bring to the table.  Maybe your boat could act as their green development prototype, and you could work with them as ongoing systems monitoring consultants.  (Ask for a discounted boat in return for your services, they cover & install the electric motor, etc., and you call when it's acting up.  Offer them a 10-year durability monitoring plan.) 


:~)

We just found out that a couple changed their plans and has one delivered to our very harbor since we started our vacation. They have are having some commissioning issues, so we might end up working with them and their dealer to help them out. This would give us an in to prove our value to the company, and it happens to be an electrical issue.

OR, in a dream world, sometimes folks with nice boats end up offloading them to friends for ridiculous deals and we could make the conversion over time...

To people like me living in 3 bedroom Ranch homes, living on a boat sounds like the dream world.  Wow!  The closest I ever experienced to that was living in a trailer.

Well, a 40' boat is generally only two bedrooms, so it depends how you use your space. Like RVing, living onboard tends to be love it or hate it. I have seen folks buy a boat and sell it a year later because marina life doesn't suit them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on June 22, 2023, 09:05:48 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 22, 2023, 09:00:57 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 22, 2023, 08:55:49 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 02:14:40 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 21, 2023, 01:36:11 PM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 12:30:14 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 21, 2023, 09:50:44 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 09:29:36 AM

This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.

Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.

That sounds really cool.  I didn't realize you're living on a yacht.  We both really like the water and boating too, but our personalities aren't compatible enough to live on one full-time.  (The survivor would get lonely!)  The type of vessel you describe sounds like a worthy thing to work towards.  I wonder if the brand you want might be open to developing the systems you want considering the future is green.  Perhaps they just need the right client to approach them about it.  A full-time liveaboard couple seems like the type of people they would want to work with, considering the wealth of practical experience you could bring to the table.  Maybe your boat could act as their green development prototype, and you could work with them as ongoing systems monitoring consultants.  (Ask for a discounted boat in return for your services, they cover & install the electric motor, etc., and you call when it's acting up.  Offer them a 10-year durability monitoring plan.) 


:~)

We just found out that a couple changed their plans and has one delivered to our very harbor since we started our vacation. They have are having some commissioning issues, so we might end up working with them and their dealer to help them out. This would give us an in to prove our value to the company, and it happens to be an electrical issue.

OR, in a dream world, sometimes folks with nice boats end up offloading them to friends for ridiculous deals and we could make the conversion over time...

To people like me living in 3 bedroom Ranch homes, living on a boat sounds like the dream world.  Wow!  The closest I ever experienced to that was living in a trailer.

Well, a 40' boat is generally only two bedrooms, so it depends how you use your space. Like RVing, living onboard tends to be love it or hate it. I have seen folks buy a boat and sell it a year later because marina life doesn't suit them.

Hmm...slip fees in a marina can *really* add up fast.  I'm assuming you have found a way to mitigate that?

BTW - Similar to marinas, fees at many RV parks have reached the point that it isn't worth it for many these days...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on June 22, 2023, 02:48:34 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on June 22, 2023, 09:05:48 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 22, 2023, 09:00:57 AM

Quote from: pecunia on June 22, 2023, 08:55:49 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 02:14:40 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 21, 2023, 01:36:11 PM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 12:30:14 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on June 21, 2023, 09:50:44 AM

Quote from: ixtap on June 21, 2023, 09:29:36 AM

This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.

Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.

That sounds really cool.  I didn't realize you're living on a yacht.  We both really like the water and boating too, but our personalities aren't compatible enough to live on one full-time.  (The survivor would get lonely!)  The type of vessel you describe sounds like a worthy thing to work towards.  I wonder if the brand you want might be open to developing the systems you want considering the future is green.  Perhaps they just need the right client to approach them about it.  A full-time liveaboard couple seems like the type of people they would want to work with, considering the wealth of practical experience you could bring to the table.  Maybe your boat could act as their green development prototype, and you could work with them as ongoing systems monitoring consultants.  (Ask for a discounted boat in return for your services, they cover & install the electric motor, etc., and you call when it's acting up.  Offer them a 10-year durability monitoring plan.) 


:~)

We just found out that a couple changed their plans and has one delivered to our very harbor since we started our vacation. They have are having some commissioning issues, so we might end up working with them and their dealer to help them out. This would give us an in to prove our value to the company, and it happens to be an electrical issue.

OR, in a dream world, sometimes folks with nice boats end up offloading them to friends for ridiculous deals and we could make the conversion over time...

To people like me living in 3 bedroom Ranch homes, living on a boat sounds like the dream world.  Wow!  The closest I ever experienced to that was living in a trailer.

Well, a 40' boat is generally only two bedrooms, so it depends how you use your space. Like RVing, living onboard tends to be love it or hate it. I have seen folks buy a boat and sell it a year later because marina life doesn't suit them.

Hmm...slip fees in a marina can *really* add up fast.  I'm assuming you have found a way to mitigate that?

BTW - Similar to marinas, fees at many RV parks have reached the point that it isn't worth it for many these days...

Still far, far less than rent for waterfront property! Or even inland property.

We also joined a yacht club. Dues + slips fees + galley minimum is still less than commercial slip fees. But we are not in that city at the moment. Turns out, yacht clubs are nothing like country clubs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: wannabe-stache on June 23, 2023, 07:31:43 AM

Quote from: arcturus on June 21, 2023, 10:23:31 AM

holy guacamole @wannabe-stache !!    I can only assume you have now FIRE'd or else you simply love your job and will likely only stop when it stops being fun!   Its difficult to conjure a scenario in which you're not ok, given these numbers!  Great work, btw!!

Thanks.  I am probably responsible for 20% of it, the rest is luck and timing.  Still working but it is a manageable amount of work and we have started to flex a little bit this year.  Upgraded my car, spending more on eating out and other activities, etc.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 26, 2023, 06:29:56 AM

Just got back from a short vacation to Southern California. We had a very enjoyable time there staying in expensive hipster hotels (paid with CSR points). But the greatest joy about being retired is flying back home on a Sunday night and not having to think about work on Monday morning.

My old boss called me a few days ago asking if I would like to do some part time work. The answer is actually a hard "no" but, to be polite, I told him that I would think about it. Since I worked in AI for much of my career, several people asked me recently if I missed working in the field considering how much excitement there is with language models. In fact, the situation is exactly the opposite. I am so glad not to be working 18 hours a day on some ridiculous AI application intended to put minimum wage workers out of work.

I still read the latest papers to keep up with the field but always feel glad that I don't have to get stuff to work. With conventional software, when you fix a bug, it (mostly) stays fixed. With AI models, you never know what new things are going to break with each new training run. All this AI stuff is great in demos but it's much harder to actually make apps that do useful things.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 26, 2023, 10:16:07 AM

Continuing the latest trend of OG FIRE bloggers 'falling off the wagon' - https://www.1500days.com/why-ramit/

Carl and Mindy had the Ramit Sethi, "Die with Zero", "Spend Till the End" treatment and have loosened the purse strings...

Interested to hear what this cohort thinks in general about raising spending closer to that 4% level?  For those of us in the upper / beyond ranges, that would require $160k/yr or more!  Personally, I'm at around $100k per year including putting the kids through college and some lumpy spending (e.g. bought our 4th new car to complete a refresh that started in 2015), travel, etc.  $100k/yr already seems outrageous (unless inflation gets me there).  Maybe there are still lumpy purchases after the kids finish college, but I really don't see my inflation adjusted spending going any higher that it is today...

But that's just me, we have a wide variety of COL and NW folks here, so I'm interested to hear what others think!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 26, 2023, 11:15:10 AM

Hey guys I've ended my Appalachian Trail hike for now.  I hiked 436 miles up from Tennessee to the southern border of Shenandoah National Park at Waynesboro VA. My wife and friends picked me up and we're now at a Massanutten VA resort.   What a culture shock after 39 days living out of my backpack in the mountains.   I've gone two days resting up and sleeping in a real bed.   I'm ready to hike again.  From the condo I can see the mountains of Shenandoah.  I have to go home to.visit family and attend our grandson's baptism.  Will I go back to the trail or back to work and home living? I lost 25 pounds out there and got in excellent condition.   I've made new friends on the trail and they want me back out there.  Wife certainly wants me happy, but has missed me a bunch. 
Having fun visiting vineyards and drinking wine.  LSU Tigers are fighting to win the college world series.  Headed back to Louisiana Saturday.   Life decisions will have to be made.
It's all wonderful right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on June 26, 2023, 11:52:15 AM

Not that long ago I consistently thought "What would I even spend that on?!"

I think we have finally figured that out... Between staying at hotels more often for various reasons and generous donations to GoFundMe when we know the folks concerned and otherwise supporting friends and family who struggle without taking them on as ongoing projects. And DH has been known to adopt a person as a project in the past ...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 26, 2023, 01:10:36 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 26, 2023, 10:16:07 AM

Continuing the latest trend of OG FIRE bloggers 'falling off the wagon' - https://www.1500days.com/why-ramit/

Carl and Mindy had the Ramit Sethi, "Die with Zero", "Spend Till the End" treatment and have loosened the purse strings...

Interested to hear what this cohort thinks in general about raising spending closer to that 4% level?  For those of us in the upper / beyond ranges, that would require $160k/yr or more!  Personally, I'm at around $100k per year including putting the kids through college and some lumpy spending (e.g. bought our 4th new car to complete a refresh that started in 2015), travel, etc.  $100k/yr already seems outrageous (unless inflation gets me there).  Maybe there are still lumpy purchases after the kids finish college, but I really don't see my inflation adjusted spending going any higher that it is today...

But that's just me, we have a wide variety of COL and NW folks here, so I'm interested to hear what others think!

Yup its a problem. I too hoard money precisely because I saw how tenuous life could be without it. Growing up in the East End of London some 15 years after WW2 (I still remember some bomb damage), no one had any money and we lived very close to the edge.. Something that scared the crap out of me at 12 years old!

Now later in life (with a ridiculous NW) I still scan the prices on the menu and buy the cheapest airplane tickets. The one year I measured it, our WR was 0.69%...

Since then I have gradually learned to let go a bit (bought a new SUV in 2021).

Just this weekend I took a look our pension and Social Security projections. IF we wait till draw everything until I'm 70 then just that income alone will be $125k.*

Currently we spend around $50 to 60k.

I'm still in the rental business (why?) and that makes us $25k and we get a $1600/month ACA subsidy.. Because like we're "poor"!!!

On the face of it, this is insanity! But its not insane, its been optimised for cash flow today...

Why can't I throw down $10k for business class tickets to Europe vs $1200 for cattle class?... Because its a waste of money thats why!.... Arrrgh!

Wish I had a better answer.

*includes today's after tax dividends of $15k

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on June 26, 2023, 02:54:59 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 26, 2023, 01:10:36 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 26, 2023, 10:16:07 AM

Continuing the latest trend of OG FIRE bloggers 'falling off the wagon' - https://www.1500days.com/why-ramit/ (https://www.1500days.com/why-ramit/)

Carl and Mindy had the Ramit Sethi, "Die with Zero", "Spend Till the End" treatment and have loosened the purse strings...

Interested to hear what this cohort thinks in general about raising spending closer to that 4% level?  For those of us in the upper / beyond ranges, that would require $160k/yr or more!  Personally, I'm at around $100k per year including putting the kids through college and some lumpy spending (e.g. bought our 4th new car to complete a refresh that started in 2015), travel, etc.  $100k/yr already seems outrageous (unless inflation gets me there).  Maybe there are still lumpy purchases after the kids finish college, but I really don't see my inflation adjusted spending going any higher that it is today...

But that's just me, we have a wide variety of COL and NW folks here, so I'm interested to hear what others think!

Yup its a problem. I too hoard money precisely because I saw how tenuous life could be without it. Growing up in the East End of London some 15 years after WW2 (I still remember some bomb damage), no one had any money and we lived very close to the edge.. Something that scared the crap out of me at 12 years old!

Now later in life (with a ridiculous NW) I still scan the prices on the menu and buy the cheapest airplane tickets. The one year I measured it, our WR was 0.69%...

Since then I have gradually learned to let go a bit (bought a new SUV in 2021).

Just this weekend I took a look our pension and Social Security projections. IF we wait till draw everything until I'm 70 then just that income alone will be $125k.*

Currently we spend around $50 to 60k.

I'm still in the rental business (why?) and that makes us $25k and we get a $1600/month ACA subsidy.. Because like we're "poor"!!!

On the face of it, this is insanity! But its not insane, its been optimised for cash flow today...

Why can't I throw down $10k for business class tickets to Europe vs $1200 for cattle class?... Because its a waste of money thats why!.... Arrrgh!

Wish I had a better answer.

*includes today's after tax dividends of $15k

Have you heard about La Compagnie?  They offer "business class only" flights from NY to a few cities in Europe.  NY to Paris roundtrip for about $1500. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on June 26, 2023, 03:43:41 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on June 26, 2023, 01:10:36 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 26, 2023, 10:16:07 AM

Continuing the latest trend of OG FIRE bloggers 'falling off the wagon' - https://www.1500days.com/why-ramit/

Carl and Mindy had the Ramit Sethi, "Die with Zero", "Spend Till the End" treatment and have loosened the purse strings...

Interested to hear what this cohort thinks in general about raising spending closer to that 4% level?  For those of us in the upper / beyond ranges, that would require $160k/yr or more!  Personally, I'm at around $100k per year including putting the kids through college and some lumpy spending (e.g. bought our 4th new car to complete a refresh that started in 2015), travel, etc.  $100k/yr already seems outrageous (unless inflation gets me there).  Maybe there are still lumpy purchases after the kids finish college, but I really don't see my inflation adjusted spending going any higher that it is today...

But that's just me, we have a wide variety of COL and NW folks here, so I'm interested to hear what others think!

Yup its a problem. I too hoard money precisely because I saw how tenuous life could be without it. Growing up in the East End of London some 15 years after WW2 (I still remember some bomb damage), no one had any money and we lived very close to the edge.. Something that scared the crap out of me at 12 years old!

Now later in life (with a ridiculous NW) I still scan the prices on the menu and buy the cheapest airplane tickets. The one year I measured it, our WR was 0.69%...

Since then I have gradually learned to let go a bit (bought a new SUV in 2021).

Just this weekend I took a look our pension and Social Security projections. IF we wait till draw everything until I'm 70 then just that income alone will be $125k.*

Currently we spend around $50 to 60k.

I'm still in the rental business (why?) and that makes us $25k and we get a $1600/month ACA subsidy.. Because like we're "poor"!!!

On the face of it, this is insanity! But its not insane, its been optimised for cash flow today...

Why can't I throw down $10k for business class tickets to Europe vs $1200 for cattle class?... Because its a waste of money thats why!.... Arrrgh!

Wish I had a better answer.

*includes today's after tax dividends of $15k

As per the 4% rule, we could spend over $250k per year when we actually start drawing down our savings (not including pensions and SS). In practice, our regular expenses (ie other than lumpy expenses  like cars, home repairs, vacations etc) has not exceeded $80k per year. My hobbies tend to be pretty cheap - for example, I recently spent an enjoyable couple of weeks writing code for a $30 embedded single-board computer.

In his podcast, Morgan Housel (https://www.morganhousel.com) says that most of us don't really know what makes us happy so his suggestion is to try a diverse set of activities to figure out what works for you. Inspired by this, I booked us a $600 per night hipster hotel in Southern California (free kombucha on tap in the lobby!) on a recent short vacation. To our surprise, we did really enjoy the stay in this hotel. We have always stayed in Hampton Inn level hotels so far. Hmm - maybe we ought to do this more often 😀

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 26, 2023, 04:25:36 PM

@2sk22 I think its fair to say if you don't start spending (a lot) soon, you are going to be leaving behind a metric shit-ton of money!

At least my "problem" is smaller than yours..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on June 26, 2023, 06:45:24 PM

For me with spending more, well deciding to move to the SF Bay Area in 2021 sure helped.  And I’m happy to spend more money to not fly cattle class anymore.  (If I had a travel buddy to sleep on I might think different).  Those are my two biggest current “splurges.”

In the work rules.  It’s a bad week.  I’m likely to have to travel over the 4th of July holiday.  It’s not a terrible assignment, more along the lines of “but I don’t want to”. Unfortunately there appears to be no one else.  I immediately asked for a day of leave around Labor day so I won’t be working 3 holidays in a row.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LeftA on June 30, 2023, 10:48:36 AM

Hello,
I’m joining you at net worth of just over $2M. Yeah, I’m definitely the poorest one in this group! Nonetheless, I look forward to being here.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on June 30, 2023, 10:54:18 AM

Welcome LeftA! Glad to have you join us!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 30, 2023, 12:25:49 PM

Quote from: LeftA on June 30, 2023, 10:48:36 AM

Hello,
I’m joining you at net worth of just over $2M. Yeah, I’m definitely the poorest one in this group! Nonetheless, I look forward to being here.

Still working?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: CANStache on June 30, 2023, 01:11:28 PM

Quote from: LeftA on June 30, 2023, 10:48:36 AM

Hello,
I’m joining you at net worth of just over $2M. Yeah, I’m definitely the poorest one in this group! Nonetheless, I look forward to being here.

I was you!  Like being the worst player on the court/field/ice, it's inspiring to see those "ahead" of you and to work hard to move things along.

Welcome to the thread, I'm sure your progress will inspire someone else someday.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 30, 2023, 01:22:00 PM

Quote from: LeftA on June 30, 2023, 10:48:36 AM

Hello,
I’m joining you at net worth of just over $2M. Yeah, I’m definitely the poorest one in this group! Nonetheless, I look forward to being here.

Oh great, now I'm going to have to go wash off my hands having replied to a mere two-millionaire!  Oh Jeeves, bring the Purell forthwith...  LOL, congrats LeftA

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on June 30, 2023, 01:25:04 PM

Quote from: LeftA on June 30, 2023, 10:48:36 AM

Hello,
I’m joining you at net worth of just over $2M. Yeah, I’m definitely the poorest one in this group! Nonetheless, I look forward to being here.

Just caught up on the previous thread today and saw you'd "graduated". Congratulations! Welcome to this little corner of the forum.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on June 30, 2023, 05:14:04 PM

Quote from: LeftA on June 30, 2023, 10:48:36 AM

Hello,
I’m joining you at net worth of just over $2M. Yeah, I’m definitely the poorest one in this group! Nonetheless, I look forward to being here.

Each extra million gets easier.   Come on in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on June 30, 2023, 10:46:26 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 30, 2023, 01:22:00 PM

Quote from: LeftA on June 30, 2023, 10:48:36 AM

Hello,
I’m joining you at net worth of just over $2M. Yeah, I’m definitely the poorest one in this group! Nonetheless, I look forward to being here.

Oh great, now I'm going to have to go wash off my hands having replied to a mere two-millionaire!  Oh Jeeves, bring the Purell forthwith...  LOL, congrats LeftA

I know right? Sometimes one just has to hold ones nose to slum-it with the great unwashed!..:)

Here is the good thing.. Chances as LeftA you will get to "beyond" by doing absolutely nothing..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 01, 2023, 06:39:08 AM

Welcome @LeftA .   Just updated the spreadsheet, net worth just crossed $3M with invested assets just north of $2.4M -- thanks to the month of June!   Oh and depending on which real estate site I believe, the net worth could be as high as $3.4M - can you believe that??!!??    I personally believe the right answer is somewhere in the middle, but I'm going with the lowest to be conservative because it again feels like there is a bit of a real estate bubble around these parts.   

Anyways, it feels good to once again establish line of sight to the goals.   Still not at my "aggressive" goal for the year (~$2.6M), but it doesn't feel as crazy as it did at the beginning of the year.  And admittedly, it was kind of stupidly aggressive, like "if I could only achieve this, I'd be back on track" sorta thing.

The kid-expenses have continued to be a bit of an drain this year, but -- ever the optimist -- those will hopefully wind down very soon.  529 accounts are depleted, so it all hits with stache dollars at this point, which is particularly painful.   

Good to hear from you all, and watching your next move with interest @Bateaux .  Best to you all!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JGS1980 on July 01, 2023, 06:59:51 AM

Quarterly Update:
July-20    $1,128,599 (+197,143)
Oct-20     $1,233,581 (+104,981) *Milestone reached -over 1 million in liquid investments.
Jan-21     $1,468,865 (+235,284 for the quarter, +374,258 for the year))
April-21   $1,594,119 (+125,254)
July-21    $1,714,855 (+120,736)
Oct-21     $1,729,455 (+14,599)
Jan-22     $1,920,469 (+191,014 for the quarter, +451,604 for the year)
April-22   $1,864,657 (-$55,812)
July-22    $1,680,190 (-184,167)
Oct-22     *Did Not Calculate
Jan-23     $1,821,385 (DNC)
April-23   $1,953,913 (+132,528) *Milestone -over 1.5 million liquid
July-23    $2,092,670 (+138,757) ***Sabbatical Time***

Proud to join this illustrious race/club. Been enjoying the musings here for years. I'm not really racing at this point, however, as I just quit my job yesterday and am now officially on sabbatical. Not quite FAT-FIRED, more like COAST FIRED right now, which is fine by me. Thanks everyone here for all the motivation and insight over the years. This community is a priceless resource.

JGS

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 01, 2023, 10:24:37 AM

Woo-hoo, a spate of new members, just in time for summer fun. Who's going to join is next?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 01, 2023, 11:46:37 AM

Quote from: JGS1980 on July 01, 2023, 06:59:51 AM

Quarterly Update:
July-20    $1,128,599 (+197,143)
Oct-20     $1,233,581 (+104,981) *Milestone reached -over 1 million in liquid investments.
Jan-21     $1,468,865 (+235,284 for the quarter, +374,258 for the year))
April-21   $1,594,119 (+125,254)
July-21    $1,714,855 (+120,736)
Oct-21     $1,729,455 (+14,599)
Jan-22     $1,920,469 (+191,014 for the quarter, +451,604 for the year)
April-22   $1,864,657 (-$55,812)
July-22    $1,680,190 (-184,167)
Oct-22     *Did Not Calculate
Jan-23     $1,821,385 (DNC)
April-23   $1,953,913 (+132,528) *Milestone -over 1.5 million liquid
July-23    $2,092,670 (+138,757) ***Sabbatical Time***

Proud to join this illustrious race/club. Been enjoying the musings here for years. I'm not really racing at this point, however, as I just quit my job yesterday and am now officially on sabbatical. Not quite FAT-FIRED, more like COAST FIRED right now, which is fine by me. Thanks everyone here for all the motivation and insight over the years. This community is a priceless resource.

JGS

If I had known about sabbatical years ago, I may have continued my education.  My older brother became a professor.  Quite a number of years back he told me he was taking the next year as a sabbatical.  I asked him, "What's that?"  Then he told me and I replied, "You've got to be kidding."  Enjoy your long reprieve.  With your savings, you may not need to go back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JGS1980 on July 01, 2023, 02:38:08 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 01, 2023, 11:46:37 AM

Quote from: JGS1980 on July 01, 2023, 06:59:51 AM

Quarterly Update:
July-20    $1,128,599 (+197,143)
Oct-20     $1,233,581 (+104,981) *Milestone reached -over 1 million in liquid investments.
Jan-21     $1,468,865 (+235,284 for the quarter, +374,258 for the year))
April-21   $1,594,119 (+125,254)
July-21    $1,714,855 (+120,736)
Oct-21     $1,729,455 (+14,599)
Jan-22     $1,920,469 (+191,014 for the quarter, +451,604 for the year)
April-22   $1,864,657 (-$55,812)
July-22    $1,680,190 (-184,167)
Oct-22     *Did Not Calculate
Jan-23     $1,821,385 (DNC)
April-23   $1,953,913 (+132,528) *Milestone -over 1.5 million liquid
July-23    $2,092,670 (+138,757) ***Sabbatical Time***

Proud to join this illustrious race/club. Been enjoying the musings here for years. I'm not really racing at this point, however, as I just quit my job yesterday and am now officially on sabbatical. Not quite FAT-FIRED, more like COAST FIRED right now, which is fine by me. Thanks everyone here for all the motivation and insight over the years. This community is a priceless resource.

JGS

If I had known about sabbatical years ago, I may have continued my education.  My older brother became a professor.  Quite a number of years back he told me he was taking the next year as a sabbatical.  I asked him, "What's that?"  Then he told me and I replied, "You've got to be kidding."  Enjoy your long reprieve.  With your savings, you may not need to go back.

Not a real sabbatical. More like I quit my job and don't plan to work for at least 6 months. But I prefer to call it a sabbatical as people find that to be a more reassuring concept. Either way, I plan to rest my brain and body a bit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 01, 2023, 03:48:12 PM

Quote from: JGS1980 on July 01, 2023, 02:38:08 PM

Not a real sabbatical. More like I quit my job and don't plan to work for at least 6 months. But I prefer to call it a sabbatical as people find that to be a more reassuring concept. Either way, I plan to rest my brain and body a bit.

I'm still on my "sabbatical" I started in February 2016.  For me it was less about reassuring other people and more about giving myself permission to "fail" at FIRE and decide to go back to work if I messed up my finances or got bored.  Haven't messed up my finances or got bored (yet).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on July 01, 2023, 04:00:56 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 01, 2023, 03:48:12 PM

Quote from: JGS1980 on July 01, 2023, 02:38:08 PM

Not a real sabbatical. More like I quit my job and don't plan to work for at least 6 months. But I prefer to call it a sabbatical as people find that to be a more reassuring concept. Either way, I plan to rest my brain and body a bit.

I'm still on my "sabbatical" I started in February 2016.  For me it was less about reassuring other people and more about giving myself permission to "fail" at FIRE and decide to go back to work if I messed up my finances or got bored.  Haven't messed up my finances or got bored (yet).

Ha! When we talk about cruising we talk about going all over the world, but not around the world, for the same reason. If our goal is to do it as long as it interests us, not to complete something, we can't fail at it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 01, 2023, 04:50:19 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 01, 2023, 03:48:12 PM

Quote from: JGS1980 on July 01, 2023, 02:38:08 PM

Not a real sabbatical. More like I quit my job and don't plan to work for at least 6 months. But I prefer to call it a sabbatical as people find that to be a more reassuring concept. Either way, I plan to rest my brain and body a bit.

I'm still on my "sabbatical" I started in February 2016.  For me it was less about reassuring other people and more about giving myself permission to "fail" at FIRE and decide to go back to work if I messed up my finances or got bored.  Haven't messed up my finances or got bored (yet).

Good response -- and I like that perspective, I guess I need to convince myself think about it that way!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 01, 2023, 06:02:15 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 01, 2023, 04:50:19 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 01, 2023, 03:48:12 PM

Quote from: JGS1980 on July 01, 2023, 02:38:08 PM

Not a real sabbatical. More like I quit my job and don't plan to work for at least 6 months. But I prefer to call it a sabbatical as people find that to be a more reassuring concept. Either way, I plan to rest my brain and body a bit.

I'm still on my "sabbatical" I started in February 2016.  For me it was less about reassuring other people and more about giving myself permission to "fail" at FIRE and decide to go back to work if I messed up my finances or got bored.  Haven't messed up my finances or got bored (yet).

Good response -- and I like that perspective, I guess I need to convince myself think about it that way!

Maybe, but not necessarily.

I'm beginning to think that I won't have to go back to work.  I'm too lazy to change my LinkedIn profile though.  ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on July 01, 2023, 07:22:00 PM

aaaaaaaand... that's the whistle for half time! H22023 here we come.

I've got this semi-annual report thing going on with my SO where we square things up from credit card and other charges every six months, plus (since I'm the one with portfolio management training) I go through her financials and give her the 'state of the union' - what our individual and combined NWs are, what our asset allocations are, and what changes I recommend that she make (e.g. transfer $X from checking to VTSAX).  So that kept me busy last night after the second quarter reached its conclusion.

Six months ago the equity portion of her portfolio had dropped to around 60% but it's back to 67%, near her 70% target. Our total NW is also back to an all-time high (it hasn't reached infinity but it's well into 'Beyond' territory), and with the firehose of a paycheck flooding her checking account biweekly it should continue its march upwards. 

It's a bit weird to calculate WR based on our combined assets and expenses, as I am the only one FIREd, but it would be around 3%.  Using my numbers alone (just my spending, just my investible assets) it's about 4%, a level I'm reasonably comfortable with on a theoretical level...however my parents inculcated me with their depression-era mentality so I am constantly questioning my financial safety and whether I'm spending too much...

So I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation: what if tomorrow all of our equities went to zero, SO's megacorp went bankrupt so she not only lost her job but her deferred compensation as well, and social security ran out of money so we get a 25% haircut on that?  I estimated that while we wouldn't be able to eat kobe beef nightly, we'd still be able to keep a roof over our heads and not have to eat cat food - plus have a good amount of $$$ left over for travel etc.  Having that knowledge has added another layer of comfort for me around our financial situation!

Anybody else here look at close-to-worst-case scenarios like that?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rmorris50 on July 01, 2023, 07:48:27 PM

Quote from: jeroly on July 01, 2023, 07:22:00 PM

aaaaaaaand... that's the whistle for half time! H22023 here we come.

I've got this semi-annual report thing going on with my SO where we square things up from credit card and other charges every six months, plus (since I'm the one with portfolio management training) I go through her financials and give her the 'state of the union' - what our individual and combined NWs are, what our asset allocations are, and what changes I recommend that she make (e.g. transfer $X from checking to VTSAX).  So that kept me busy last night after the second quarter reached its conclusion.

Six months ago the equity portion of her portfolio had dropped to around 60% but it's back to 67%, near her 70% target. Our total NW is also back to an all-time high (it hasn't reached infinity but it's well into 'Beyond' territory), and with the firehose of a paycheck flooding her checking account biweekly it should continue its march upwards. 

It's a bit weird to calculate WR based on our combined assets and expenses, as I am the only one FIREd, but it would be around 3%.  Using my numbers alone (just my spending, just my investible assets) it's about 4%, a level I'm reasonably comfortable with on a theoretical level...however my parents inculcated me with their depression-era mentality so I am constantly questioning my financial safety and whether I'm spending too much...

So I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation: what if tomorrow all of our equities went to zero, SO's megacorp went bankrupt so she not only lost her job but her deferred compensation as well, and social security ran out of money so we get a 25% haircut on that?  I estimated that while we wouldn't be able to eat kobe beef nightly, we'd still be able to keep a roof over our heads and not have to eat cat food - plus have a good amount of $$$ left over for travel etc.  Having that knowledge has added another layer of comfort for me around our financial situation!

Anybody else here look at close-to-worst-case scenarios like that?

Well I am actually witnessing a “worse case”scenario with my mother. She is 72, disabled, and just hangs out in her little one bed apt all day, every day except to go to the doc. She lives off $1500 a month social security, with half going to rent. She’s been supplementing that with a very small inheritance over the past decade and with additional help from us adult children, but now that inheritance has run out. So I am in the process of getting her on SNAP and Medicaid.

Her life is extremely simple, she doesn’t do much of anything. But she has a roof, food and children who love her and are helping her. Her basic needs are met.

So I don’t really stress over the worse case scenario. I know we can adapt and should always have the basics, short of a societal collapse.

Yet having said all that I am still working .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 02, 2023, 10:49:33 AM

Quote from: jeroly on July 01, 2023, 07:22:00 PM

I've got this semi-annual report thing going on with my SO where we square things up from credit card and other charges every six months, plus (since I'm the one with portfolio management training) I go through her financials and give her the 'state of the union' - what our individual and combined NWs are, what our asset allocations are, and what changes I recommend that she make (e.g. transfer $X from checking to VTSAX).  So that kept me busy last night after the second quarter reached its conclusion.

This sounds quite familiar although DW is likely more resistant.  Every turn of a month, I tell her what her checking account earned and what it would earn at Ally.  For this month, her checking account interest was 16 cents and if she transferred to Ally, it would bring $110.  Not enough to convince her to move anything.  Sigh

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 02, 2023, 12:23:00 PM

Quote from: jeroly on July 01, 2023, 07:22:00 PM

aaaaaaaand... that's the whistle for half time! H22023 here we come.

I've got this semi-annual report thing going on with my SO where we square things up from credit card and other charges every six months, plus (since I'm the one with portfolio management training) I go through her financials and give her the 'state of the union' - what our individual and combined NWs are, what our asset allocations are, and what changes I recommend that she make (e.g. transfer $X from checking to VTSAX).  So that kept me busy last night after the second quarter reached its conclusion.

Six months ago the equity portion of her portfolio had dropped to around 60% but it's back to 67%, near her 70% target. Our total NW is also back to an all-time high (it hasn't reached infinity but it's well into 'Beyond' territory), and with the firehose of a paycheck flooding her checking account biweekly it should continue its march upwards. 

It's a bit weird to calculate WR based on our combined assets and expenses, as I am the only one FIREd, but it would be around 3%.  Using my numbers alone (just my spending, just my investible assets) it's about 4%, a level I'm reasonably comfortable with on a theoretical level...however my parents inculcated me with their depression-era mentality so I am constantly questioning my financial safety and whether I'm spending too much...

So I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation: what if tomorrow all of our equities went to zero, SO's megacorp went bankrupt so she not only lost her job but her deferred compensation as well, and social security ran out of money so we get a 25% haircut on that?  I estimated that while we wouldn't be able to eat kobe beef nightly, we'd still be able to keep a roof over our heads and not have to eat cat food - plus have a good amount of $$$ left over for travel etc.  Having that knowledge has added another layer of comfort for me around our financial situation!

Anybody else here look at close-to-worst-case scenarios like that?

I'm pretty conservative by nature as well, but I think I've come to terms with accepting some risk, otherwise I will never pull the trigger.  Albeit, I'm probably an elder statesperson by traditional FIRE standards, due in large part to late start and divorce which caused a reset button push about 10 years ago or so.

But I'm doing my calcs based on a 6% assumed return and my fallback is home equity and/or going back to work per @secondcor521 's approach (I'm going to try to adopt this philosophy and employ it if I start to fall materially behind on my plan).  I will also confess that I don't think the 4% SWR will work for me -- disown me if you want!   But as I start to analyze the situation, I'm realizing that things like property taxes are a really big swing for me, believe it or not....property taxes in this area are relatively high I believe (~2.2% of home value per year).   Living in the house I want and leaving funding for things like reasonable (not crazy IMO) travel means significant expense in those two line items.  So I am planning for that.

But in terms of preparing for an armageddon scenario in terms of the markets and/or sociopolitical situation, I'm putting that out of my mind.   Life is too short -- at my age.   But I can assure you, if I were in the "and beyond" territory, I'd be pulling the trigger at this stage in my life.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: oldladystache on July 02, 2023, 12:58:46 PM

Quote

Anybody else here look at close-to-worst-case scenarios like that?

Unless we have a massive disruption, societal collapse, I don't see how I could run out of money.

But I still carefully monitor my accounts, making sure that every dollar is working as hard as it can.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: on the road on July 03, 2023, 12:20:15 PM

Rejoining this thread and hoping it sticks this time

Liquid net worth

      2020       2021       2022       2023
Jan              $1,428K    $1,979K    $1,867K
Feb     $984K    $1,463K    $1,967K    $2,005K
Mar     $883K    $1,501K    $1,991K    $1,961K
Apr     $721K    $1,720K    $2,111K    $2,076K
May   $1,092K    $1,793K    $1,906K    $2,075K
Jun              $1,828K    $1,918K    $2,064K
Jul              $1,841K    $1,833K    $2,108K
Aug   $1,217K    $1,860K    $1,916K
Sep   $1,260K    $1,906K    $1,892K
Oct   $1,265K    $1,866K    $1,745K
Nov   $1,253K    $1,951K    $1,822K
Dec   $1,375K    $1,911K    $1,933K

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 03, 2023, 04:38:35 PM

Quote from: oldladystache on July 02, 2023, 12:58:46 PM

Quote

Anybody else here look at close-to-worst-case scenarios like that?

Unless we have a massive disruption, societal collapse, I don't see how I could run out of money.

But I still carefully monitor my accounts, making sure that every dollar is working as hard as it can.

This.
I think old habits die hard though and the money anxiety will crop up, especially when there is a large market downturn and/or we are spending a lot. Some of it is still a bit of disbelief that we are truly FI at 45. Is that really possible? And then the what ifs and worst case scenario ruminating starts.
I just try and remind myself that we are in the 95th percentile of net worth so lots of things would have to go horribly wrong before we are destitute. And you dont go frim bei gcan extreme saver to an extreme spender overnight.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 03, 2023, 05:39:11 PM

Interesting, I was talking to a friend today who is uber wealthy and has been for a long time. Takes a private jet to business appointments, yearly family ski trips to Aspen.. in the private jet of course.

Obviously spends money like water. Said friend has no idea why I do things cheap.. take multi day backpacking/camping trips and (so far) has always flown economy.

I mean said friend has a point.. Why do I do this? I can't afford the "Aspen" lifestyle but we could easily afford a 6X the cost for business class when flying internationally.

But then, I know how long/hard I had to work to get to get from poverty to Fat FIRE. I know how much nursing homes cost, blah blah.

Of course its a fear response but not totally irrational either.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 03, 2023, 06:30:43 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 03, 2023, 05:39:11 PM

Interesting, I was talking to a friend today who is uber wealthy and has been for a long time. Takes a private jet to business appointments, yearly family ski trips to Aspen.. in the private jet of course.

Obviously spends money like water. Said friend has no idea why I do things cheap.. take multi day backpacking/camping trips and (so far) has always flown economy.

I mean said friend has a point.. Why do I do this? I can't afford the "Aspen" lifestyle but we could easily afford a 6X the cost for business class when flying internationally.

But then, I know how long/hard I had to work to get to get from poverty to Fat FIRE. I know how much nursing homes cost, blah blah.

Of course its a fear response but not totally irrational either.

In 1926, F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote that the rich “are different from you and me.”  I still think that way.

I also think more rich folks than not are very careful with their money.  If you've ever lived in a small town, there's always a rich tightwad to be had in the area.  How did he get rich?  Often being a tightwad had something to do with it.  They've had to work for those pennies they hoard.

Then you hear true to life tales of people who win the lottery.  They p*ss it all away.  Their ship has come in and they've run it into the rocks.

I'm just sayin' there's some sense behind your philosophy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 03, 2023, 07:29:25 PM

@pecunia yes you could see if we had kids and they inherited say $5M each. They then invest that and by the time they retire they hand off say $50M to their heirs.

I bet said grandkids would have a very different approach to spending money than I do... "Oh honey lets fire up the private jet and fly to Aspen for Thanksgiving".... Hedonistic adaption.. Its a thing..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 04, 2023, 05:59:42 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 03, 2023, 06:30:43 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 03, 2023, 05:39:11 PM

Interesting, I was talking to a friend today who is uber wealthy and has been for a long time. Takes a private jet to business appointments, yearly family ski trips to Aspen.. in the private jet of course.

Obviously spends money like water. Said friend has no idea why I do things cheap.. take multi day backpacking/camping trips and (so far) has always flown economy.

I mean said friend has a point.. Why do I do this? I can't afford the "Aspen" lifestyle but we could easily afford a 6X the cost for business class when flying internationally.

But then, I know how long/hard I had to work to get to get from poverty to Fat FIRE. I know how much nursing homes cost, blah blah.

Of course its a fear response but not totally irrational either.

In 1926, F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote that the rich “are different from you and me.”  I still think that way.

I also think more rich folks than not are very careful with their money.  If you've ever lived in a small town, there's always a rich tightwad to be had in the area.  How did he get rich?  Often being a tightwad had something to do with it.  They've had to work for those pennies they hoard.

Then you hear true to life tales of people who win the lottery.  They p*ss it all away.  Their ship has come in and they've run it into the rocks.

I'm just sayin' there's some sense behind your philosophy.

I’ve been listening to Remit’s show.  He mentioned at higher levels of spending there will be more that will go to waste.  I think he’s right and that is one of the reasons us tightwads have a hard time “enjoying our money”. We got it by not being wasteful, but now we can be “a little”.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LeftA on July 04, 2023, 08:16:05 AM

Thanks for the welcome @couponvan !

@Exflyboy , yes I’m still working. I’m pretty young and recently made a career change that has me thinking “wow, I can’t believe I get paid to do this.” after working in a fast paced, high intensity environment pretty much my whole career…

@CANStache , thanks for the warm welcome and inspiring words!

@EscapeVelocity2020 , yeah sorry about soiling your hands. LOL.

@Dicey , thanks! I’ve on occasion read this thread in the past thinking “perhaps, one day I’ll be there…” Can’t believe the time has come!

@Bateaux , while $1 to $2M was quick, I’m not sure I’m convinced that 2 to 3M will be that easy. I’ve definitely become a bit looser with my money. For example, I used to try to sell almost everything I don’t use that’s in good shape. Now, I find myself giving away so much - I just don’t want to spend the time or headache, especially when someone else can use it and get pleasure out of the item.

@arcturus , wow $3M! Congratulations!

@JGS1980 , congratulations on both passing the $2M mark and the “sabbatical!” What are your plans for this time? You mentioned rest and relax, but anything specific?

Interesting discussion about spending more now that we have hit a certain threshold…I think I will always weigh the benefit vs. the price before spending money. For example, flying business or first class, I still have a hard time thinking I’d pay multiple times the cost of economy for a few hours of discomfort! (My husband thinks I’ll change my tune when we are older and have even more $). I also think of the early days of working for minimum wage - granted I was a teen. But, the tedious and mind numbing work I did, makes me think twice about being wasteful now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 04, 2023, 09:26:41 AM

I think many of us have money but we don’t necessarily want to change the lifestyle that we are used to living.   We place value on our practical and frugal beliefs.  Money frees our time to pursue whatever makes us happy.  Wasting money has never made me happy.  I’m happy knowing that I can, but wouldn’t be happy doing it.   
Different strokes for different folks. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 04, 2023, 10:20:55 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 04, 2023, 09:26:41 AM

I think many of us have money but we don’t necessarily want to change the lifestyle that we are used to living.   We place value on our practical and frugal beliefs.  Money frees our time to pursue whatever makes us happy.  Wasting money has never made me happy.  I’m happy knowing that I can, but wouldn’t be happy doing it.   
Different strokes for different folks.

You need to be hired to write inspirational quotes for frugal people.. I think you encapsulated what I think me belief structure is perfectly

But I'm still going to die with too much money!..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on July 04, 2023, 10:43:02 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 04, 2023, 09:26:41 AM

I think many of us have money but we don’t necessarily want to change the lifestyle that we are used to living.   We place value on our practical and frugal beliefs.  Money frees our time to pursue whatever makes us happy.  Wasting money has never made me happy.  I’m happy knowing that I can, but wouldn’t be happy doing it.   
Different strokes for different folks.

Some of our family has been surprised to learn that we are definitely not looking for a bigger boat, but rather a same sized boat with some mod cons.

Or, as I said to DH this morning, we just want a champagne boat to continue to live our tap water life style.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 04, 2023, 10:54:48 AM

Quote from: ixtap on July 04, 2023, 10:43:02 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 04, 2023, 09:26:41 AM

I think many of us have money but we don’t necessarily want to change the lifestyle that we are used to living.   We place value on our practical and frugal beliefs.  Money frees our time to pursue whatever makes us happy.  Wasting money has never made me happy.  I’m happy knowing that I can, but wouldn’t be happy doing it.   
Different strokes for different folks.

Some of our family has been surprised to learn that we are definitely not looking for a bigger boat, but rather a same sized boat with some mod cons.

Or, as I said to DH this morning, we just want a champagne boat to continue to live our tap water life style.

Exactly!

On our international trip back to the UK (For the Coronation of course.. NOT!), we were loading onto the airplane and doing the cattle herding through business class towards the spiked wooden benches at the very back of the airplane.

The couple in front of me said to each other  "oh this is where the millionaires sit"...

Of course I wanted to say something but I didn't..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 04, 2023, 11:55:27 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 04, 2023, 10:20:55 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 04, 2023, 09:26:41 AM

I think many of us have money but we don’t necessarily want to change the lifestyle that we are used to living.   We place value on our practical and frugal beliefs.  Money frees our time to pursue whatever makes us happy.  Wasting money has never made me happy.  I’m happy knowing that I can, but wouldn’t be happy doing it.   
Different strokes for different folks.

You need to be hired to write inspirational quotes for frugal people.. I think you encapsulated what I think me belief structure is perfectly

But I'm still going to die with too much money!..:)

I had this sort of weird thought while reading through this.  When does food taste the best?  It's when you haven't eaten in a while.  Denying yourself certain foods makes them taste ever so good when you finally receive them.  After a bleak Winter as the sun finally pokes through the grey, it is greatly welcomed.  After a week of sunshine, the same feeling is not there.  It's got me thinking about the entire frugality thing.  You don't have to experience a complete denial but just a careful moderation.  Time of restraint can make many experiences once received much more enjoyable.

Then there's the do-it -yourself thing.  When you build something yourself it can give a special feeling of satisfaction.  When you restore a thing, it can be a piece of treasure to you.  There's the whole saving the Earth thing kind of mixed in there too.

Sorry, that's as far as I got with the thought.  Time for a bike ride on a sunny day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 04, 2023, 12:13:31 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 04, 2023, 10:54:48 AM

Quote from: ixtap on July 04, 2023, 10:43:02 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 04, 2023, 09:26:41 AM

I think many of us have money but we don’t necessarily want to change the lifestyle that we are used to living.   We place value on our practical and frugal beliefs.  Money frees our time to pursue whatever makes us happy.  Wasting money has never made me happy.  I’m happy knowing that I can, but wouldn’t be happy doing it.   
Different strokes for different folks.

Some of our family has been surprised to learn that we are definitely not looking for a bigger boat, but rather a same sized boat with some mod cons.

Or, as I said to DH this morning, we just want a champagne boat to continue to live our tap water life style.

Exactly!

On our international trip back to the UK (For the Coronation of course.. NOT!), we were loading onto the airplane and doing the cattle herding through business class towards the spiked wooden benches at the very back of the airplane.

The couple in front of me said to each other  "oh this is where the millionaires sit"...

Of course I wanted to say something but I didn't..:)

Ha! My first thought was, "Hmmm, not all of them..."

I used to fly for business and frequently got upgraded. I was definitely not a millionaire then.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 04, 2023, 12:22:28 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 04, 2023, 09:26:41 AM

I think many of us have money but we don’t necessarily want to change the lifestyle that we are used to living.   We place value on our practical and frugal beliefs.  Money frees our time to pursue whatever makes us happy.  Wasting money has never made me happy.  I’m happy knowing that I can, but wouldn’t be happy doing it.   
Different strokes for different folks.

OTOH, we just spent about $1200 to fix a pesky problem in our ten-year-old luxury vehicle and it wasn't even a blip in our operating funds, let alone our NW. By contrast,  I took my 98-year old friend to a Safeway (full service grocery store) yesterday. I grabbed a few things as long as I was there to save another trip before we leave on vacation. I damn near died at their prices! One bag of ingredients (no meat, no snack foods) cost $50. However, helping my friend made me very happy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 04, 2023, 01:26:33 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 04, 2023, 12:22:28 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 04, 2023, 09:26:41 AM

I think many of us have money but we don’t necessarily want to change the lifestyle that we are used to living.   We place value on our practical and frugal beliefs.  Money frees our time to pursue whatever makes us happy.  Wasting money has never made me happy.  I’m happy knowing that I can, but wouldn’t be happy doing it.   
Different strokes for different folks.

OTOH, we just spent about $1200 to fix a pesky problem in our ten-year-old luxury vehicle and it wasn't even a blip in our operating funds, let alone our NW. By contrast,  I took my 98-year old friend to a Safeway (full service grocery store) yesterday. I grabbed a few things as long as I was there to save another trip before we leave on vacation. I damn near died at their prices! One bag of ingredients (no meat, no snack foods) cost $50. However, helping my friend made me very happy.

Hahaha.. I know right, Isn't that just so ridiculous?

The the "buy a $35,000 SUV to sleep in to avoid $30 camping fees!"

Or... $4 for a birthday card.. gimme a break.. two for a dollar at the Dollar store!.. I'm going to drive over there!

The fact the Dollar Store is right next to Harbor Freight might also have a bit to do with that..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 05, 2023, 09:03:48 PM

So I worked two shifts after returning from the Appalachian Trail.  I missed my peeps at work.  I miss my peeps from the Appalachian Trail.  There are cheap trips to Vegas and even cheaper per day cruises to Europe.
I have the rest of my shifts to work this July and early August. Also I'm scheduled for about 84 hours of overtime in those four weeks.  I'm planning to take a trip to our Florida house the second week of August.  Haven't been since April. In May and June I walked 436 miles of the AT.  There were more miles in total since I was without a car all those days and I walked everywhere, even in towns.  I lost 25 pounds a long the way.  I felt better than I have in years.
This morning after working two nights shifts, I had an 8:30 am dental appointment scheduled.  I'd forgotten, I'd even had it.  They called Monday with a reminder.  I had not planned to be employed at this date when I booked the appointment.  Other than the dental appointment, I did nothing but sleep and eat crappy food today.  I've felt worse today after working night shifts than after backpacking a 22 mile day in the mountains.
I just got a call from work, they need me in tomorrow morning.  I'd planned on having a great day bicycling tomorrow and ending the day with some fabulous Louisiana seafood.
I'm mentally and physically done with work!
My wife is pushing me to finish the year because it's worth a significant amount of money.  I'm ready to quit next month.  I'm pension and medical insurance eligible now. I know it's just six more months, but taking six weeks off has killed my desire to go back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on July 05, 2023, 09:14:42 PM

Will you ever use the extra money you get in that extra six months?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: scottish on July 05, 2023, 09:26:13 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 04, 2023, 10:54:48 AM

Quote from: ixtap on July 04, 2023, 10:43:02 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 04, 2023, 09:26:41 AM

I think many of us have money but we don’t necessarily want to change the lifestyle that we are used to living.   We place value on our practical and frugal beliefs.  Money frees our time to pursue whatever makes us happy.  Wasting money has never made me happy.  I’m happy knowing that I can, but wouldn’t be happy doing it.   
Different strokes for different folks.

Some of our family has been surprised to learn that we are definitely not looking for a bigger boat, but rather a same sized boat with some mod cons.

Or, as I said to DH this morning, we just want a champagne boat to continue to live our tap water life style.

Exactly!

On our international trip back to the UK (For the Coronation of course.. NOT!), we were loading onto the airplane and doing the cattle herding through business class towards the spiked wooden benches at the very back of the airplane.

The couple in front of me said to each other  "oh this is where the millionaires sit"...

Of course I wanted to say something but I didn't..:)

Real millionaires splurge by paying $40 for the exit row seats!  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 05, 2023, 09:46:40 PM

Quote from: deborah on July 05, 2023, 09:14:42 PM

Will you ever use the extra money you get in that extra six months?

Probably never miss it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on July 06, 2023, 03:34:55 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 05, 2023, 09:46:40 PM

Quote from: deborah on July 05, 2023, 09:14:42 PM

Will you ever use the extra money you get in that extra six months?

Probably never miss it.

Sounds like a pretty terrible use of your time then....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 06, 2023, 03:54:15 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 05, 2023, 09:03:48 PM

My wife is pushing me to finish the year because it's worth a significant amount of money.  I'm ready to quit next month.  I'm pension and medical insurance eligible now. I know it's just six more months, but taking six weeks off has killed my desire to go back.

It gets easier the longer you're retired. I just turned down a pretty significant amount of money. My old manager called yesterday asking if I would be willing to come back as a consultant. After two and half years of retirement, it was easy to say no (politely of course) :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on July 06, 2023, 07:19:31 AM

A thought exercise that might be helpful:

How many more years of life would you need to anticipate to make whatever you might earn by continuing to work to the end of the year worthwhile? And when would you rather have the freedom to live your life exactly as you choose/do all the stuff in your bucket list.

Let's say your current stash is likely to carry you to age 85 at a 3% SWD.  Working an extra 6 months would push that out to age 90.  But you forego 6 months of active living now -- doing all the hiking and biking and traveling you have put off for years -- for five years when you are most likely going to be more limited in what your body and brain can handle.  Think of how much invigorating living you can have in the next six months, versus five years of a more mundane existence when you probably will have more aches and pains, etc.

It might also be helpful to ask your wife why having this money now is important to her.  Does she really understand how good/safe your financial picture is?  Or are there bucket list items for her that she would like to spend the extra on?

I hope you will quit sooner rather than later, but understand it is complicated, especially with a spouse pushing you to keep the firehose of cash flowing...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 06, 2023, 08:11:25 AM

I kinda play it more in the present - the extra money I make now, post FI, needs to be spent more now.  If I don't want to spend it, I need to stop making it.  But I've managed to add in a lot of nice extras (we upgraded the final windows on the house, took more trips, tip and donate more, etc.) to help justify continuing to bring in money beyond FI.  I'm living each and every year I get to the fullest.  Until I drop to $2M (still my FI number), I'm not going to worry too much.

You folks thinking about your future 90 year old selves all the time depress me :)  Like those broke or dead folks that look at how much more likely they'll be dead than broke and find comfort in that.  Sheesh, no wonder FIRE is losing it's mojo, I don't want to make decisions based on that stuff, I want to be more like Bill Perkins and Die With Zero - headed toward broke well before being dead.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 06, 2023, 08:56:23 AM

I never thought that I would say this,but I may talk with a financial planner to ease my wife's fears.  Back of the napkin math says we can draw over 13K a month right now.   Part of that will be my pension for the longest life of either of us.   It's about 4310 a month till we both croak.  The rest is based on 4% burn rate.  We don't spend that right now!
You guys know this is solid.  Leaning towards middle of August and done.  She can work till the year end. I'm OK with that if it makes her feel more secure. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 06, 2023, 09:17:35 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 06, 2023, 08:56:23 AM

I never thought that I would say this,but I may talk with a financial planner to ease my wife's fears.  Back of the napkin math says we can draw over 13K a month right now.   Part of that will be my pension for the longest life of either of us.   It's about 4310 a month till we both croak.  The rest is based on 4% burn rate.  We don't spend that right now!
You guys know this is solid.  Leaning towards middle of August and done.  She can work till the year end. I'm OK with that if it makes her feel more secure.

Don’t forget to consider the tax impact of the extra income. Both now and in the future. Every dollar earned is worth less when you are at this level of net worth. And ever year as we age our time is worth more…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 06, 2023, 10:20:00 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 06, 2023, 08:56:23 AM

I never thought that I would say this,but I may talk with a financial planner to ease my wife's fears.  Back of the napkin math says we can draw over 13K a month right now.   Part of that will be my pension for the longest life of either of us.   It's about 4310 a month till we both croak.  The rest is based on 4% burn rate.  We don't spend that right now!
You guys know this is solid.  Leaning towards middle of August and done.  She can work till the year end. I'm OK with that if it makes her feel more secure.

If your wife wants to continue worrying let her go to work every day until she stops worrying.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 06, 2023, 11:53:47 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 06, 2023, 08:56:23 AM

I never thought that I would say this,but I may talk with a financial planner to ease my wife's fears.  Back of the napkin math says we can draw over 13K a month right now.   Part of that will be my pension for the longest life of either of us.   It's about 4310 a month till we both croak.  The rest is based on 4% burn rate.  We don't spend that right now!
You guys know this is solid.  Leaning towards middle of August and done.  She can work till the year end. I'm OK with that if it makes her feel more secure.

This sounds weird to me but I just did the same calc and figured you currently have $1000 more per YEAR to live on than we do... I.e we are in the same position.. hmm.

Now of course I don't know your spending habits or how much you have in post tax vs pre tax.. Were are at about 50:50.

What I can say is we have a SIGNIFICANT tax issue between Medicare age and RMD age.. Or.. A freaking huge tax issue at RMD age if we don't do any ROTH conversions.. Take your choice.

Bottom line is there is no conceivable reason for us to earn any extra money.. I still chose to go back to work last year because the job was fun and I used the $$ to buy a couple of outrageously expensive toys, but I certainly didn't need to.

I think a couple of hundy spent with a financial planner would be a great idea to help your Wife with her fears.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on July 06, 2023, 11:59:13 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 04, 2023, 10:54:48 AM

Quote from: ixtap on July 04, 2023, 10:43:02 AM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 04, 2023, 09:26:41 AM

I think many of us have money but we don’t necessarily want to change the lifestyle that we are used to living.   We place value on our practical and frugal beliefs.  Money frees our time to pursue whatever makes us happy.  Wasting money has never made me happy.  I’m happy knowing that I can, but wouldn’t be happy doing it.   
Different strokes for different folks.

Some of our family has been surprised to learn that we are definitely not looking for a bigger boat, but rather a same sized boat with some mod cons.

Or, as I said to DH this morning, we just want a champagne boat to continue to live our tap water life style.

Exactly!

On our international trip back to the UK (For the Coronation of course.. NOT!), we were loading onto the airplane and doing the cattle herding through business class towards the spiked wooden benches at the very back of the airplane.

The couple in front of me said to each other  "oh this is where the millionaires sit"...

Of course I wanted to say something but I didn't..:)

Heh, we recently decided to make an extended trip abroad an every summer thing (there's only so many summers left we're gonna want to travel), and always invite the 3 kids (there's even fewer summers left they'll want or be able to come with as they enter adulthood now).  The plane tickets are generally around $1k a piece, so $5k when all kids come, and I usually find myself spending another $5k total on everything else (apartment vrbo type thing for maybe $3k for a couple/few weeks and maybe $2k on other stuff).  So thats a total of $10k per summer trip.  That's sounds completely reasonable and affordable to me at this point.  We have an even grander one (mulitple countries) planned for this summer which will probably drive it to like $14k.

So I used to assume BUsiness class was twice coach, but the few times I clicked to see the difference lately its been more like 5x as much.  There is just no freakin way...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 06, 2023, 12:29:59 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on July 06, 2023, 11:59:13 AM

So I used to assume BUsiness class was twice coach, but the few times I clicked to see the difference lately its been more like 5x as much.  There is just no freakin way...

The one time I flew business class, my Dad first bought us economy class tickets and then we looked at and called about the prices to upgrade to business class several times.  Each time we declined because it wasn't worth it.  A few weeks before the flight the airline sent us a very understated email saying we could upgrade for a price that was quite a bit lower, so we did.

I don't know if that strategy works every time, but it saved us quite a bit.  The route was SEA<->DXB on Emirates, and the sticker price was $10K per seat to begin with, then the upgrade eventually dropped until I think we (well, my Dad) paid $800 per seat per person (per leg?  I can't recall) in the end.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on July 06, 2023, 01:16:48 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 06, 2023, 12:29:59 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on July 06, 2023, 11:59:13 AM

So I used to assume BUsiness class was twice coach, but the few times I clicked to see the difference lately its been more like 5x as much.  There is just no freakin way...

The one time I flew business class, my Dad first bought us economy class tickets and then we looked at and called about the prices to upgrade to business class several times.  Each time we declined because it wasn't worth it.  A few weeks before the flight the airline sent us a very understated email saying we could upgrade for a price that was quite a bit lower, so we did.

I don't know if that strategy works every time, but it saved us quite a bit.  The route was SEA<->DXB on Emirates, and the sticker price was $10K per seat to begin with, then the upgrade eventually dropped until I think we (well, my Dad) paid $800 per seat per person (per leg?  I can't recall) in the end.

Wow, thats quite a difference.  I did once fly business class personally and it was the same situation (an upgrade offer) I just received in an email one day (I never really considered anythign other than coach), but it was for just me and the spouse and was for like $80 a piece on a short flight, I figured what the heck, probably the only time I ever fly up there....and it has been to date!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 06, 2023, 01:33:15 PM

I think I’d rather my kids inherit too much money than spend up for business class or first class. But I’m only 5’2 and 130lbs. So maybe that’s why it doesn’t seem worth it to me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 06, 2023, 02:58:29 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 06, 2023, 01:33:15 PM

I think I’d rather my kids inherit too much money than spend up for business class or first class. But I’m only 5’2 and 130lbs. So maybe that’s why it doesn’t seem worth it to me.

Yes us smaller folk (5' 8" 150lbs) have an easier time in cattle. Sometimes if you get the cheapest seats in the back I often find there are rows of seats unoccupied, So if you're quick you can get a pretty decent bed out of the deal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 06, 2023, 03:13:32 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 06, 2023, 01:33:15 PM

I think I’d rather my kids inherit too much money than spend up for business class or first class. But I’m only 5’2 and 130lbs. So maybe that’s why it doesn’t seem worth it to me.

Size is one thing that comes into play, for sure.

There is also quite a bit of difference between the airlines and domestic versus international.  First class United domestic gets you early boarding, a really wide seat, and of course you only rub elbows with the other millionaires (@Exflyboy) - I wouldn't pay for it.  Emirates international business class gets you a much quieter area, really really nice food, and a lie flat seat inside a miniature cubby / cubicle.  I would pay for Emirates business class, but not $10K.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 06, 2023, 03:23:29 PM

Hah.. I'm walking past all the other millionaires on my way to the wooden slat seats with the spikes!

The "slightly" irritating thing is I used to fly all over the World earning air miles. So of course I've had a lot of upgrades. But I'm still not paying 6X for business class..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 06, 2023, 04:28:37 PM

Absolutely no regrets 😀

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on July 06, 2023, 04:41:25 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 06, 2023, 08:56:23 AM

I never thought that I would say this,but I may talk with a financial planner to ease my wife's fears.  Back of the napkin math says we can draw over 13K a month right now.   Part of that will be my pension for the longest life of either of us.   It's about 4310 a month till we both croak.  The rest is based on 4% burn rate.  We don't spend that right now!
You guys know this is solid.  Leaning towards middle of August and done.  She can work till the year end. I'm OK with that if it makes her feel more secure.

@Bateaux

The thread regulars have been trying to get YOU to relax and FIRE for years, we STILL haven't crossed the FIRE line with you yet.
Even after a coworker died on the job.  https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/say-hi-and-introduce-yourself/msg2861847/#msg2861847

Your wife has been new to this (unless she has been looking over your shoulder at MMM forum posts).  It might take a while.
While I approve of your plan, you should vet the "financial advisor" prior to you wife meeting them.   
You could end up with a Boglehead/Suzie Ormond (10M not quite enough) or someone who can't get the FIRE concept straight.
Even new FIREes get nervous.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/serious-'one-more-year'-syndrome-advice-appreciated/
specifically https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/serious-'one-more-year'-syndrome-advice-appreciated/msg2448503/#msg2448503

Less relevant for you, (mostly accumulation phase stuff).
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-to-convert-your-so-to-mmm-in-50-awesome-steps/msg0/?topicseen#new

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 06, 2023, 05:58:41 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 06, 2023, 08:11:25 AM

I kinda play it more in the present - the extra money I make now, post FI, needs to be spent more now.  If I don't want to spend it, I need to stop making it.  But I've managed to add in a lot of nice extras (we upgraded the final windows on the house, took more trips, tip and donate more, etc.) to help justify continuing to bring in money beyond FI.  I'm living each and every year I get to the fullest.  Until I drop to $2M (still my FI number), I'm not going to worry too much.

You folks thinking about your future 90 year old selves all the time depress me :)  Like those broke or dead folks that look at how much more likely they'll be dead than broke and find comfort in that.  Sheesh, no wonder FIRE is losing it's mojo, I don't want to make decisions based on that stuff, I want to be more like Bill Perkins and Die With Zero - headed toward broke well before being dead.

All good points!   The other thing to keep in mind is that you will not spend money uniformly over the entire duration of your retirement years.  I assuming a pretty robust retirement lifestyle for ~20 years, and then I believe I will naturally become less active and therefore spend less on travel, hobbies, etc.   Then, one could easily argue spending will continue to trend down as you age beyond that.   I don't view this as "belt tightening," rather I tend to view it as just a natural progression called aging.

I guess that is one huge positive that I have -- I know when I decide I'm ready to pull the escape hatch, DW will be fully supportive!   I'm the more conservative one in that regard.   But even then, as I see others in my life age and receive health diagnoses, etc., it just reinforces the notion that, at a certain point, life is just too short and too precious.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 06, 2023, 06:03:19 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 06, 2023, 03:23:29 PM

Hah.. I'm walking past all the other millionaires on my way to the wooden slat seats with the spikes!

The "slightly" irritating thing is I used to fly all over the World earning air miles. So of course I've had a lot of upgrades. But I'm still not paying 6X for business class..:)

I'm with you....I don't think I will be capable of paying for business class / first class for myself.  Not even on international.  Like you, I've done my share of business travel and the airline perks that go with it -- and miss it for sure.   However, the fare difference is just too great for me to process!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 06, 2023, 06:07:25 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 06, 2023, 03:13:32 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 06, 2023, 01:33:15 PM

I think I’d rather my kids inherit too much money than spend up for business class or first class. But I’m only 5’2 and 130lbs. So maybe that’s why it doesn’t seem worth it to me.

Size is one thing that comes into play, for sure.

There is also quite a bit of difference between the airlines and domestic versus international.  First class United domestic gets you early boarding, a really wide seat, and of course you only rub elbows with the other millionaires (@Exflyboy) - I wouldn't pay for it.  Emirates international business class gets you a much quieter area, really really nice food, and a lie flat seat inside a miniature cubby / cubicle.  I would pay for Emirates business class, but not $10K.

I mean it sounds really nice but it’s still an airplane.
Besides my M.O. on international flights is two drink minimum and a melatonin. I could sleep standing up at that point. Blow up my neck pillow. Pull down my eye mask. I’m drooling in 10.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on July 07, 2023, 06:11:54 AM

@Bateaux -- have you had a look at Mark Zoril's company Planvision?  I think we had a thread about them sometime in the last year or two (that I may actually have started).  I'm in the process of sorting out some financial/legal logistics at the moment and once that is taken care of I am probably going to sign up with them.  Much more affordable than a traditional financial planner, and the access to the higher level software that Fidelity uses appeals.  And the underlying philosophy matches my general approach.

https://planvisionmn.com/get-started/

There are some other affordable services suggested over on Bogleheads but the names escape me at the moment.

https://planvisionmn.com/get-started/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: GhostSaver on July 07, 2023, 06:42:30 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 06, 2023, 05:58:41 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 06, 2023, 08:11:25 AM

I kinda play it more in the present - the extra money I make now, post FI, needs to be spent more now.  If I don't want to spend it, I need to stop making it.  But I've managed to add in a lot of nice extras (we upgraded the final windows on the house, took more trips, tip and donate more, etc.) to help justify continuing to bring in money beyond FI.  I'm living each and every year I get to the fullest.  Until I drop to $2M (still my FI number), I'm not going to worry too much.

You folks thinking about your future 90 year old selves all the time depress me :)  Like those broke or dead folks that look at how much more likely they'll be dead than broke and find comfort in that.  Sheesh, no wonder FIRE is losing it's mojo, I don't want to make decisions based on that stuff, I want to be more like Bill Perkins and Die With Zero - headed toward broke well before being dead.

All good points!   The other thing to keep in mind is that you will not spend money uniformly over the entire duration of your retirement years.  I assuming a pretty robust retirement lifestyle for ~20 years, and then I believe I will naturally become less active and therefore spend less on travel, hobbies, etc.   Then, one could easily argue spending will continue to trend down as you age beyond that.   I don't view this as "belt tightening," rather I tend to view it as just a natural progression called aging.

I guess that is one huge positive that I have -- I know when I decide I'm ready to pull the escape hatch, DW will be fully supportive!   I'm the more conservative one in that regard.   But even then, as I see others in my life age and receive health diagnoses, etc., it just reinforces the notion that, at a certain point, life is just too short and too precious.

You may want to consider that life as a 90 year old does not generally involve less spending for most people. Medical expenses and nursing care get very spendy in a hurry. It's more common than not to see people spend down a good little chunk of NW in their final few years.

If you're posting in this thread in this forum, you can budget for that with your eyes wide open without an issue. But I would have some nursing care and EOL medical expenses padded in if you're modeling a life expectancy up to 85, 90, or above. Not that I am trying to rain on your parade: if you're young and retired and can afford a nice new bike or some pseudo-spendy travel, you definitely should do it while you have the energy and bodily integrity to enjoy it.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 07, 2023, 06:57:17 AM

Quote from: lhamo on July 07, 2023, 06:11:54 AM

@Bateaux -- have you had a look at Mark Zoril's company Planvision?  I think we had a thread about them sometime in the last year or two (that I may actually have started).  I'm in the process of sorting out some financial/legal logistics at the moment and once that is taken care of I am probably going to sign up with them.  Much more affordable than a traditional financial planner, and the access to the higher level software that Fidelity uses appeals.  And the underlying philosophy matches my general approach.

https://planvisionmn.com/get-started/

There are some other affordable services suggested over on Bogleheads but the names escape me at the moment.

https://planvisionmn.com/get-started/

This is the thread in Bogleheads you were probably referring to: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=407051

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 07, 2023, 07:01:06 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 06, 2023, 06:07:25 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 06, 2023, 03:13:32 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 06, 2023, 01:33:15 PM

I think I’d rather my kids inherit too much money than spend up for business class or first class. But I’m only 5’2 and 130lbs. So maybe that’s why it doesn’t seem worth it to me.

Size is one thing that comes into play, for sure.

There is also quite a bit of difference between the airlines and domestic versus international.  First class United domestic gets you early boarding, a really wide seat, and of course you only rub elbows with the other millionaires (@Exflyboy) - I wouldn't pay for it.  Emirates international business class gets you a much quieter area, really really nice food, and a lie flat seat inside a miniature cubby / cubicle.  I would pay for Emirates business class, but not $10K.

I mean it sounds really nice but it’s still an airplane.
Besides my M.O. on international flights is two drink minimum and a melatonin. I could sleep standing up at that point. Blow up my neck pillow. Pull down my eye mask. I’m drooling in 10.

I have done my share of business travel, mostly n the 1990s but I seem to have had the misfortune of working for tightwad companies that would only pay for economy. For a couple of years. I used to fly to France for work almost every other month: I would arrive in Nice in the morning overnight from JFK, pick up my rental car and drive straight to work bleary eyed. I have also done my share of domestic red-eyes when I was working with a team in Silicon Valley. And to make matters worse, the way my company bought our tickets, I didn't even get to keep the frequent flier points. I am really thankful that business travel was mostly over for me after 2012 when remote collaboration tools became good enough.

I know that many people, especially here on this forum, retire early just to travel. If you really enjoy traveling, I fully understand that you would rather spend your money at the destination than on the journey. But I am not one of those people. I am not an enthusiastic traveler but at the same time I do like to go somewhere maybe a couple times a year. Mostly, I am happy in my basement working on my model trains. Now, if I have to take a flight over 3 hours, I absolutely will not travel unless I am in a comfortable seat, preferably lie-flat, at the front of the plane. I have no problem at all paying for the comfort and I can now afford it. As Ramith Sethi says that’s my rich life :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 07, 2023, 02:36:42 PM

Quote from: GhostSaver on July 07, 2023, 06:42:30 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 06, 2023, 05:58:41 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 06, 2023, 08:11:25 AM

I kinda play it more in the present - the extra money I make now, post FI, needs to be spent more now.  If I don't want to spend it, I need to stop making it.  But I've managed to add in a lot of nice extras (we upgraded the final windows on the house, took more trips, tip and donate more, etc.) to help justify continuing to bring in money beyond FI.  I'm living each and every year I get to the fullest.  Until I drop to $2M (still my FI number), I'm not going to worry too much.

You folks thinking about your future 90 year old selves all the time depress me :)  Like those broke or dead folks that look at how much more likely they'll be dead than broke and find comfort in that.  Sheesh, no wonder FIRE is losing it's mojo, I don't want to make decisions based on that stuff, I want to be more like Bill Perkins and Die With Zero - headed toward broke well before being dead.

All good points!   The other thing to keep in mind is that you will not spend money uniformly over the entire duration of your retirement years.  I assuming a pretty robust retirement lifestyle for ~20 years, and then I believe I will naturally become less active and therefore spend less on travel, hobbies, etc.   Then, one could easily argue spending will continue to trend down as you age beyond that.   I don't view this as "belt tightening," rather I tend to view it as just a natural progression called aging.

I guess that is one huge positive that I have -- I know when I decide I'm ready to pull the escape hatch, DW will be fully supportive!   I'm the more conservative one in that regard.   But even then, as I see others in my life age and receive health diagnoses, etc., it just reinforces the notion that, at a certain point, life is just too short and too precious.

You may want to consider that life as a 90 year old does not generally involve less spending for most people. Medical expenses and nursing care get very spendy in a hurry. It's more common than not to see people spend down a good little chunk of NW in their final few years.

If you're posting in this thread in this forum, you can budget for that with your eyes wide open without an issue. But I would have some nursing care and EOL medical expenses padded in if you're modeling a life expectancy up to 85, 90, or above. Not that I am trying to rain on your parade: if you're young and retired and can afford a nice new bike or some pseudo-spendy travel, you definitely should do it while you have the energy and bodily integrity to enjoy it.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

I disagree. From what I’ve seen from late 80’s to late 90’s spending takes a drastic downturn. People generally stop traveling, the don’t go out much, heck they don’t even eat much. And then the last year or two they might need nursing care which is a couple hundred grand not millions and then they die.
I read an article once that showed the statistics around nursing care and the vast majority of nursing home residents are there 2 years or less. The exception being Alzheimer’s patients.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 03:34:33 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 07, 2023, 02:36:42 PM

Quote from: GhostSaver on July 07, 2023, 06:42:30 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 06, 2023, 05:58:41 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 06, 2023, 08:11:25 AM

I kinda play it more in the present - the extra money I make now, post FI, needs to be spent more now.  If I don't want to spend it, I need to stop making it.  But I've managed to add in a lot of nice extras (we upgraded the final windows on the house, took more trips, tip and donate more, etc.) to help justify continuing to bring in money beyond FI.  I'm living each and every year I get to the fullest.  Until I drop to $2M (still my FI number), I'm not going to worry too much.

You folks thinking about your future 90 year old selves all the time depress me :)  Like those broke or dead folks that look at how much more likely they'll be dead than broke and find comfort in that.  Sheesh, no wonder FIRE is losing it's mojo, I don't want to make decisions based on that stuff, I want to be more like Bill Perkins and Die With Zero - headed toward broke well before being dead.

All good points!   The other thing to keep in mind is that you will not spend money uniformly over the entire duration of your retirement years.  I assuming a pretty robust retirement lifestyle for ~20 years, and then I believe I will naturally become less active and therefore spend less on travel, hobbies, etc.   Then, one could easily argue spending will continue to trend down as you age beyond that.   I don't view this as "belt tightening," rather I tend to view it as just a natural progression called aging.

I guess that is one huge positive that I have -- I know when I decide I'm ready to pull the escape hatch, DW will be fully supportive!   I'm the more conservative one in that regard.   But even then, as I see others in my life age and receive health diagnoses, etc., it just reinforces the notion that, at a certain point, life is just too short and too precious.

You may want to consider that life as a 90 year old does not generally involve less spending for most people. Medical expenses and nursing care get very spendy in a hurry. It's more common than not to see people spend down a good little chunk of NW in their final few years.

If you're posting in this thread in this forum, you can budget for that with your eyes wide open without an issue. But I would have some nursing care and EOL medical expenses padded in if you're modeling a life expectancy up to 85, 90, or above. Not that I am trying to rain on your parade: if you're young and retired and can afford a nice new bike or some pseudo-spendy travel, you definitely should do it while you have the energy and bodily integrity to enjoy it.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

I disagree. From what I’ve seen from late 80’s to late 90’s spending takes a drastic downturn. People generally stop traveling, the don’t go out much, heck they don’t even eat much. And then the last year or two they might need nursing care which is a couple hundred grand not millions and then they die.
I read an article once that showed the statistics around nursing care and the vast majority of nursing home residents are there 2 years or less. The exception being Alzheimer’s patients.

Right, this is what I meant.   Having observed others go through their mid-70s and into their 80s, I have witnessed a marked change in spending behavior that just relates to general activity level.

Certainly not dismissing the point on elder health care and/or nursing home expenses, but I suppose that if nursing care did start to enter the picture, this is where one relies on a Living Trust and puts what assets you can into that (I already have one, but its a bit outdated) to protect what's left for others while your (or your trustee, on your behalf) spend down everything else in your final years and then.....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 07, 2023, 04:03:49 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 03:34:33 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 07, 2023, 02:36:42 PM

Quote from: GhostSaver on July 07, 2023, 06:42:30 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 06, 2023, 05:58:41 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 06, 2023, 08:11:25 AM

I kinda play it more in the present - the extra money I make now, post FI, needs to be spent more now.  If I don't want to spend it, I need to stop making it.  But I've managed to add in a lot of nice extras (we upgraded the final windows on the house, took more trips, tip and donate more, etc.) to help justify continuing to bring in money beyond FI.  I'm living each and every year I get to the fullest.  Until I drop to $2M (still my FI number), I'm not going to worry too much.

You folks thinking about your future 90 year old selves all the time depress me :)  Like those broke or dead folks that look at how much more likely they'll be dead than broke and find comfort in that.  Sheesh, no wonder FIRE is losing it's mojo, I don't want to make decisions based on that stuff, I want to be more like Bill Perkins and Die With Zero - headed toward broke well before being dead.

All good points!   The other thing to keep in mind is that you will not spend money uniformly over the entire duration of your retirement years.  I assuming a pretty robust retirement lifestyle for ~20 years, and then I believe I will naturally become less active and therefore spend less on travel, hobbies, etc.   Then, one could easily argue spending will continue to trend down as you age beyond that.   I don't view this as "belt tightening," rather I tend to view it as just a natural progression called aging.

I guess that is one huge positive that I have -- I know when I decide I'm ready to pull the escape hatch, DW will be fully supportive!   I'm the more conservative one in that regard.   But even then, as I see others in my life age and receive health diagnoses, etc., it just reinforces the notion that, at a certain point, life is just too short and too precious.

You may want to consider that life as a 90 year old does not generally involve less spending for most people. Medical expenses and nursing care get very spendy in a hurry. It's more common than not to see people spend down a good little chunk of NW in their final few years.

If you're posting in this thread in this forum, you can budget for that with your eyes wide open without an issue. But I would have some nursing care and EOL medical expenses padded in if you're modeling a life expectancy up to 85, 90, or above. Not that I am trying to rain on your parade: if you're young and retired and can afford a nice new bike or some pseudo-spendy travel, you definitely should do it while you have the energy and bodily integrity to enjoy it.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

I disagree. From what I’ve seen from late 80’s to late 90’s spending takes a drastic downturn. People generally stop traveling, the don’t go out much, heck they don’t even eat much. And then the last year or two they might need nursing care which is a couple hundred grand not millions and then they die.
I read an article once that showed the statistics around nursing care and the vast majority of nursing home residents are there 2 years or less. The exception being Alzheimer’s patients.

Right, this is what I meant.   Having observed others go through their mid-70s and into their 80s, I have witnessed a marked change in spending behavior that just relates to general activity level.

Certainly not dismissing the point on elder health care and/or nursing home expenses, but I suppose that if nursing care did start to enter the picture, this is where one relies on a Living Trust and puts what assets you can into that (I already have one, but its a bit outdated) to protect what's left for others while your (or your trustee, on your behalf) spend down everything else in your final years and then.....

Uh, I’ll have to double check but I’m pretty sure a living trust will protect your assets from future health and nursing care costs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 04:51:43 PM

@BeanCounter , perhaps it wasn't clear from my wording, but that's what I was trying to say.  And I'm specifically thinking of protecting your home equity by putting the home in a living trust.  Spend down the rest.  As I re-read my post, it was somewhat awkwardly worded :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on July 07, 2023, 04:56:32 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 04:51:43 PM

@BeanCounter , perhaps it wasn't clear from my wording, but that's what I was trying to say.  And I'm specifically thinking of protecting your home equity by putting the home in a living trust.  Spend down the rest.

I think @BeanCounter left out a "not." Generally, a living trust protects the estate from probate costs (and publicity) and makes having a trustee take over easier than dealing with POAs, but has few other protections.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 04:57:40 PM

Quote from: ixtap on July 07, 2023, 04:56:32 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 04:51:43 PM

@BeanCounter , perhaps it wasn't clear from my wording, but that's what I was trying to say.  And I'm specifically thinking of protecting your home equity by putting the home in a living trust.  Spend down the rest.

I think @BeanCounter left out a "not." Generally, a living trust protects the estate from probate costs (and publicity) and makes having a trustee take over easier than dealing with POAs, but has few other protections.

Interesting, I'll have to look into that.....I had a different understanding.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 07, 2023, 06:52:50 PM

Quote from: ixtap on July 07, 2023, 04:56:32 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 04:51:43 PM

@BeanCounter , perhaps it wasn't clear from my wording, but that's what I was trying to say.  And I'm specifically thinking of protecting your home equity by putting the home in a living trust.  Spend down the rest.

I think @BeanCounter left out a "not." Generally, a living trust protects the estate from probate costs (and publicity) and makes having a trustee take over easier than dealing with POAs, but has few other protections.

Correct.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 07, 2023, 07:23:18 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 07, 2023, 07:01:06 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 06, 2023, 06:07:25 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 06, 2023, 03:13:32 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 06, 2023, 01:33:15 PM

I think I’d rather my kids inherit too much money than spend up for business class or first class. But I’m only 5’2 and 130lbs. So maybe that’s why it doesn’t seem worth it to me.

Size is one thing that comes into play, for sure.

There is also quite a bit of difference between the airlines and domestic versus international.  First class United domestic gets you early boarding, a really wide seat, and of course you only rub elbows with the other millionaires (@Exflyboy) - I wouldn't pay for it.  Emirates international business class gets you a much quieter area, really really nice food, and a lie flat seat inside a miniature cubby / cubicle.  I would pay for Emirates business class, but not $10K.

I mean it sounds really nice but it’s still an airplane.
Besides my M.O. on international flights is two drink minimum and a melatonin. I could sleep standing up at that point. Blow up my neck pillow. Pull down my eye mask. I’m drooling in 10.

I have done my share of business travel, mostly n the 1990s but I seem to have had the misfortune of working for tightwad companies that would only pay for economy. For a couple of years. I used to fly to France for work almost every other month: I would arrive in Nice in the morning overnight from JFK, pick up my rental car and drive straight to work bleary eyed. I have also done my share of domestic red-eyes when I was working with a team in Silicon Valley. And to make matters worse, the way my company bought our tickets, I didn't even get to keep the frequent flier points. I am really thankful that business travel was mostly over for me after 2012 when remote collaboration tools became good enough.

I know that many people, especially here on this forum, retire early just to travel. If you really enjoy traveling, I fully understand that you would rather spend your money at the destination than on the journey. But I am not one of those people. I am not an enthusiastic traveler but at the same time I do like to go somewhere maybe a couple times a year. Mostly, I am happy in my basement working on my model trains. Now, if I have to take a flight over 3 hours, I absolutely will not travel unless I am in a comfortable seat, preferably lie-flat, at the front of the plane. I have no problem at all paying for the comfort and I can now afford it. As Ramith Sethi says that’s my rich life :-)

I’m also in the Front of the plane.  Except with work trips where I’m still in the back since that is all they will pay for.  But I’m only paying for one ticket, I might have a different opinion if I were buying 2.  I also won’t pay any price for said ticket, I’m not 100% sure what my upper limit is.  Once I FIRE and can travel more I might change my mind again, but who knows.  Domestically it is about 2x, internationally it’s generally 2.5-3x.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on July 07, 2023, 07:50:03 PM

For those of you who wants to spend $6k to $10k for a business seat, is there anything at the other end of the destination that is worth that $6k or $10k?
I always buy the cheapest seats available. I spend less each trip, so that I can travel more distance and to more places, but I would not pay for a $10k ticket to visit most places on earth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 08:24:57 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 07, 2023, 06:52:50 PM

Quote from: ixtap on July 07, 2023, 04:56:32 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 04:51:43 PM

@BeanCounter , perhaps it wasn't clear from my wording, but that's what I was trying to say.  And I'm specifically thinking of protecting your home equity by putting the home in a living trust.  Spend down the rest.

I think @BeanCounter left out a "not." Generally, a living trust protects the estate from probate costs (and publicity) and makes having a trustee take over easier than dealing with POAs, but has few other protections.

Correct.

Here's an interesting read on the subject...for those who are interested.

https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/estate-planning/603120/deciding-between-a-revocable-and-irrevocable-trust

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 08, 2023, 03:32:09 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 07, 2023, 07:50:03 PM

For those of you who wants to spend $6k to $10k for a business seat, is there anything at the other end of the destination that is worth that $6k or $10k?
I always buy the cheapest seats available. I spend less each trip, so that I can travel more distance and to more places, but I would not pay for a $10k ticket to visit most places on earth.

The most I have paid for a business class seat was $5500 (round trip) when I went to visit my brother who lives in Australia a few years ago. That trip was a lot of fun as I got to spend time with my nephews. I know others who would rather spend that $5500 on six months in Southeast Asia - much diversity :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 08, 2023, 06:34:27 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 08:24:57 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 07, 2023, 06:52:50 PM

Quote from: ixtap on July 07, 2023, 04:56:32 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 04:51:43 PM

@BeanCounter , perhaps it wasn't clear from my wording, but that's what I was trying to say.  And I'm specifically thinking of protecting your home equity by putting the home in a living trust.  Spend down the rest.

I think @BeanCounter left out a "not." Generally, a living trust protects the estate from probate costs (and publicity) and makes having a trustee take over easier than dealing with POAs, but has few other protections.

Correct.

Here's an interesting read on the subject...for those who are interested.

https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/estate-planning/603120/deciding-between-a-revocable-and-irrevocable-trust

So the devil is in the details on trusts as it’s a pretty complicated topic. I’ve taken a few classes on estate planning so I know enough to be dangerous but not enough to be truly competent in the ins and outs.

I hate articles like this that suggest setting up a revocable trust is needed to avoid probate and save on estate taxes.
Most assets can be TOD (including your home) thereby avoiding probate altogether.
With current estate tax at $12.9M, you need a huge estate to before tax kicks in.
 
Trusts are so expensive. Not just to setup, but for their entire existence. I’m the beneficiary of one and the bank makes almost as much in earnings for maintaining the damn thing as I do as a beneficiary!
We are currently paying crazy dollars for attorneys to petition the court to have the trust modified because of the tax law changes. It’s a mess.

So if you’re considering a trust proceed with caution. They often don’t work as intended and honestly you can’t trust most attorneys to advise because they seem to all think that if you have any sort of money you NEED a trust and that’s simply not true.

Also, in most states much of your home equity is already protected from Medicare, so the trust doesn’t help you there either.

So when should someone consider getting a trust-

- when their estate tips $12.9M (this is scheduled to drastically decrease in future years and could start to impact people on this thread)
- you want to “control money from the grave” there are lots of scenarios where this might be necessary.

But buyer beware the law is constantly changing. The trust I’m beneficiary of was set up in the 1980s as revocable, became irrevocable (and thus its own entity) in early 2000s to avoid estate taxes and now is totally unnecessary as the tax law is so drastically different.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 08, 2023, 07:11:27 AM

Thank you for the knowledge-share, @BeanCounter .   Seems just another complexity in the maze of retirement / tax / healthcare / estate planning!  Yay!  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on July 08, 2023, 08:27:40 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 08, 2023, 03:32:09 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 07, 2023, 07:50:03 PM

For those of you who wants to spend $6k to $10k for a business seat, is there anything at the other end of the destination that is worth that $6k or $10k?
I always buy the cheapest seats available. I spend less each trip, so that I can travel more distance and to more places, but I would not pay for a $10k ticket to visit most places on earth.

The most I have paid for a business class seat was $5500 (round trip) when I went to visit my brother who lives in Australia a few years ago. That trip was a lot of fun as I got to spend time with my nephews. I know others who would rather spend that $5500 on six months in Southeast Asia - much diversity :-)

The only times I've flown business has been when work is paying for it. I don't really sleep on flights, and the full recline makes a tremendous difference in my ability to maybe sneak in a short nap. I'm usually on a 5 day work trip, and jet lag is a killer, so yes, it's a big upgrade to be able to sleep a bit, and then jump straight into work when I get there. I have to jump straight in, regardless if i've slept or not. By flying business for work trips, I have a lot of status I use personally. We flew to Dubai to see my inlaws in April, and all four of us were upgraded to business on the way there. The way home we were in economy. A 24 hour travel day is made quite a bit better by having some room to stretch out in. I also have lupus, and sleep is one of the core tenents of managing my health & staying in remission. I'm pretty miserable without sleep, so that's another factor.

We have enough money that we could fly business whenever we travel, but we instead try to optimize. I typically pay for premium economy, and then use Plus Points (not the same as miles, this is on United) to get upgraded. If we don't, premium economy does give you more room than regular economy, at least.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 08, 2023, 08:56:24 AM

I've been spoiled by business class.  As an expat, we had to travel internationally quite often on KLM and then Emirates.  The lounges are nice to relax before the flight, especially if you have young children, and the extra space during the flight really does make a difference.  That said, definitely not worth the sticker price if paying out of pocket.  There are loads of strategies out there to upgrade, I think it is one of the most cost effective uses of airlines miles and certainly my plan for overnight flights now that I'm older.  And carrier matters - newer airlines like Emirates have better planes and staff.  I have had trips where the flights were one of the highlights!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 08, 2023, 12:14:01 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 08, 2023, 03:32:09 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on July 07, 2023, 07:50:03 PM

For those of you who wants to spend $6k to $10k for a business seat, is there anything at the other end of the destination that is worth that $6k or $10k?
I always buy the cheapest seats available. I spend less each trip, so that I can travel more distance and to more places, but I would not pay for a $10k ticket to visit most places on earth.

The most I have paid for a business class seat was $5500 (round trip) when I went to visit my brother who lives in Australia a few years ago. That trip was a lot of fun as I got to spend time with my nephews. I know others who would rather spend that $5500 on six months in Southeast Asia - much diversity :-)

So far my Maximum has been $4,500.  I’ve recently looked at AUS/NZ and it’s been in the $8k range for a better known airline, but I could still get there on Fiji air for around the $5,500 mark. 

I’m likely to use miles for either of these spots.  I might consider premium economy, but I end up getting a pain in my shoulder from trying not to get in someone else’s space in regular economy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 08, 2023, 09:50:26 PM

I looked up my next potential flight.  Tampa to Albany NY.  Southwest Airlines one way.  My way back to the Appalachian Trail potentially.

$138 I'm eternally cheap. $165 if out of New Orleans.  I'll be in Tampa area next month.  Got to get back on the trail.  I'm still bucking the work saddle.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 08, 2023, 10:09:40 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 08, 2023, 06:34:27 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 08:24:57 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 07, 2023, 06:52:50 PM

Quote from: ixtap on July 07, 2023, 04:56:32 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 04:51:43 PM

@BeanCounter , perhaps it wasn't clear from my wording, but that's what I was trying to say.  And I'm specifically thinking of protecting your home equity by putting the home in a living trust.  Spend down the rest.

I think @BeanCounter left out a "not." Generally, a living trust protects the estate from probate costs (and publicity) and makes having a trustee take over easier than dealing with POAs, but has few other protections.

Correct.

Here's an interesting read on the subject...for those who are interested.

https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/estate-planning/603120/deciding-between-a-revocable-and-irrevocable-trust

So the devil is in the details on trusts as it’s a pretty complicated topic. I’ve taken a few classes on estate planning so I know enough to be dangerous but not enough to be truly competent in the ins and outs.

I hate articles like this that suggest setting up a revocable trust is needed to avoid probate and save on estate taxes.
Most assets can be TOD (including your home) thereby avoiding probate altogether.
With current estate tax at $12.9M, you need a huge estate to before tax kicks in.
 
Trusts are so expensive. Not just to setup, but for their entire existence. I’m the beneficiary of one and the bank makes almost as much in earnings for maintaining the damn thing as I do as a beneficiary!
We are currently paying crazy dollars for attorneys to petition the court to have the trust modified because of the tax law changes. It’s a mess.

So if you’re considering a trust proceed with caution. They often don’t work as intended and honestly you can’t trust most attorneys to advise because they seem to all think that if you have any sort of money you NEED a trust and that’s simply not true.

Also, in most states much of your home equity is already protected from Medicare, so the trust doesn’t help you there either.

So when should someone consider getting a trust-

- when their estate tips $12.9M (this is scheduled to drastically decrease in future years and could start to impact people on this thread)
- you want to “control money from the grave” there are lots of scenarios where this might be necessary.

But buyer beware the law is constantly changing. The trust I’m beneficiary of was set up in the 1980s as revocable, became irrevocable (and thus its own entity) in early 2000s to avoid estate taxes and now is totally unnecessary as the tax law is so drastically different.

Estate tax at Fed is at $12.9M (individual).. But in Oregon it bites at $1M.

I don't care when I'm dead as I hope to have it all spent by then anyway..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on July 08, 2023, 11:31:20 PM

I’m on the taller end of the size spectrum, and I ended up in the back of the plane. The seat porch was so low that I was wedged in with my knees almost poking between the seats into the space of the people in front of me. It was pretty horrible. Survivable for 2.5 hours, but horrible. The next leg of the flight is in premium of some kind (wider, more legroom) and will be much more tolerable.

I had another flight (little connector plane turboprop) a couple of years ago where I was getting so claustrophobic before we even took off that I turned my phone back on and upgraded the next leg to first class. ($30/seat)  Did you know that your cell phone will work up to a couple thousand feet in the air? 

For me, especially as I get older, premium economy is a must-have. I just don’t fit in today’s economy class seats.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 09, 2023, 08:00:28 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 08, 2023, 10:09:40 PM

Estate tax at Fed is at $12.9M (individual).. But in Oregon it bites at $1M.

I don't care when I'm dead as I hope to have it all spent by then anyway..:)

I'm in Massachusetts, where there's a cliff at $1M.  If the estate is $1M, estate tax for the state is zero.  $1,000,001 and the tax is about $33,000.

On the probate front, I know from helping DW who was executor on her aunt's estate.  Holy cow, is it easy for previous probated estates.  The aunt was the sole beneficiary of the grandparents.  Why's this matter?  The family was very old school and their over riding motto was "don't let the government know anything".  Thus, in the safe deposit box was $75k in US savings bonds.  All were over 30 years old, so had been earning zip for years.  The oldest was from 1941.  Because the grandfather's estate was probated, I could go into the county website and see the will, all probate information and how probate progressed.  As it turned out, we had to re-open probate in order to cash the savings bonds. 

My mom has a condo and was yipping at me that we should put it in my name so that her estate would not have to go through probate.  I know from the attorney and court costs from DW's aunt that these are piddly amounts.  I told my mom that it didn't matter what she did, when she passes, I will open probate even if there's nothing to put into it.  I want the will and all estate information to be permanent public record.  Also, if the deed were put into my name, I'd lose the step up basis and when sold, I'd owe far more tax than what probate costs would be.

I've probably mentioned before but we had our will done along with homestead declaration which limits liability in our state.  We were moving forward with a revolkable trust so we could define how our assets would go to our kids.  You know, at this age, this percentage goes to the kids and at the next older age, another percentage goes.  The problem is that we don't have younger, trusted people to be trustees.  It makes no sense for either of us to use our sisters because they're too close to our ages and could be dead before us.  What about a corporate trustee?  That's pretty easy and it would work.  The downside?  1-3% per year cost.  We're talking $4M for us so between $40k and $120k a year.  Nope.  We dropped the whole thing and decided to just go with a will and if the kids wasted all the money in 3 days, well, not our problem.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 09, 2023, 08:15:42 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on July 09, 2023, 08:00:28 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 08, 2023, 10:09:40 PM

Estate tax at Fed is at $12.9M (individual).. But in Oregon it bites at $1M.

I don't care when I'm dead as I hope to have it all spent by then anyway..:)

I'm in Massachusetts, where there's a cliff at $1M.  If the estate is $1M, estate tax for the state is zero.  $1,000,001 and the tax is about $33,000.

On the probate front, I know from helping DW who was executor on her aunt's estate.  Holy cow, is it easy for previous probated estates.  The aunt was the sole beneficiary of the grandparents.  Why's this matter?  The family was very old school and their over riding motto was "don't let the government know anything".  Thus, in the safe deposit box was $75k in US savings bonds.  All were over 30 years old, so had been earning zip for years.  The oldest was from 1941.  Because the grandfather's estate was probated, I could go into the county website and see the will, all probate information and how probate progressed.  As it turned out, we had to re-open probate in order to cash the savings bonds. 

My mom has a condo and was yipping at me that we should put it in my name so that her estate would not have to go through probate.  I know from the attorney and court costs from DW's aunt that these are piddly amounts.  I told my mom that it didn't matter what she did, when she passes, I will open probate even if there's nothing to put into it.  I want the will and all estate information to be permanent public record.  Also, if the deed were put into my name, I'd lose the step up basis and when sold, I'd owe far more tax than what probate costs would be.

I've probably mentioned before but we had our will done along with homestead declaration which limits liability in our state.  We were moving forward with a revolkable trust so we could define how our assets would go to our kids.  You know, at this age, this percentage goes to the kids and at the next older age, another percentage goes.  The problem is that we don't have younger, trusted people to be trustees.  It makes no sense for either of us to use our sisters because they're too close to our ages and could be dead before us.  What about a corporate trustee?  That's pretty easy and it would work.  The downside?  1-3% per year cost.  We're talking $4M for us so between $40k and $120k a year.  Nope.  We dropped the whole thing and decided to just go with a will and if the kids wasted all the money in 3 days, well, not our problem.

You don’t need the deed in your name. You need to do the paperwork work to have the transfer on death recorded for the deed, then when your mom passes it’s just a trip to the recorders office to transfer it to you and you DO NOT lose the step up in basis.
Same thing with a vehicle.
I executed my mothers entire estate (over $1M in assets) without probate. It’s easy if you do the work ahead of time.

So if you put your kids as beneficiaries of your investment accounts they won’t have to go to probate and you won’t need the expensive trust. That part is easy.
In the case of multiple children the physical assets get more difficult. I don’t think you can put TOD for the house deed in multiple children’s names. But you might. For the vehicles best to just pick a kid to put TOD on the title too and not worry about splitting all that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 09, 2023, 08:37:49 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 03:34:33 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 07, 2023, 02:36:42 PM

Quote from: GhostSaver on July 07, 2023, 06:42:30 AM

You may want to consider that life as a 90 year old does not generally involve less spending for most people. Medical expenses and nursing care get very spendy in a hurry. It's more common than not to see people spend down a good little chunk of NW in their final few years.

If you're posting in this thread in this forum, you can budget for that with your eyes wide open without an issue. But I would have some nursing care and EOL medical expenses padded in if you're modeling a life expectancy up to 85, 90, or above. Not that I am trying to rain on your parade: if you're young and retired and can afford a nice new bike or some pseudo-spendy travel, you definitely should do it while you have the energy and bodily integrity to enjoy it.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

I disagree. From what I’ve seen from late 80’s to late 90’s spending takes a drastic downturn. People generally stop traveling, the don’t go out much, heck they don’t even eat much. And then the last year or two they might need nursing care which is a couple hundred grand not millions and then they die.
I read an article once that showed the statistics around nursing care and the vast majority of nursing home residents are there 2 years or less. The exception being Alzheimer’s patients.

Right, this is what I meant.   Having observed others go through their mid-70s and into their 80s, I have witnessed a marked change in spending behavior that just relates to general activity level.

Certainly not dismissing the point on elder health care and/or nursing home expenses, but I suppose that if nursing care did start to enter the picture, this is where one relies on a Living Trust and puts what assets you can into that (I already have one, but its a bit outdated) to protect what's left for others while your (or your trustee, on your behalf) spend down everything else in your final years and then.....

I also agree with people who have observed spending drastically go down later in life.  Most of the time, one of the couple has vastly more health issues and travel becomes too cumbersome or impossible.

Health expenses don't go out of control as long as there is still a healthy person in the household, unless the couple are wealthy and choose to have more help or if they move to a retirement / assisted living community.  Is anyone here considering a Long Term Care insurance policy?  I'm getting to net worth levels where I might consider having one just so all of the care doesn't fall on the healthy spouse...  Having extra help can really improve quality of life as well as take significant burden off of the children. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 09, 2023, 08:57:38 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 09, 2023, 08:37:49 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 07, 2023, 03:34:33 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 07, 2023, 02:36:42 PM

Quote from: GhostSaver on July 07, 2023, 06:42:30 AM

You may want to consider that life as a 90 year old does not generally involve less spending for most people. Medical expenses and nursing care get very spendy in a hurry. It's more common than not to see people spend down a good little chunk of NW in their final few years.

If you're posting in this thread in this forum, you can budget for that with your eyes wide open without an issue. But I would have some nursing care and EOL medical expenses padded in if you're modeling a life expectancy up to 85, 90, or above. Not that I am trying to rain on your parade: if you're young and retired and can afford a nice new bike or some pseudo-spendy travel, you definitely should do it while you have the energy and bodily integrity to enjoy it.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

I disagree. From what I’ve seen from late 80’s to late 90’s spending takes a drastic downturn. People generally stop traveling, the don’t go out much, heck they don’t even eat much. And then the last year or two they might need nursing care which is a couple hundred grand not millions and then they die.
I read an article once that showed the statistics around nursing care and the vast majority of nursing home residents are there 2 years or less. The exception being Alzheimer’s patients.

Right, this is what I meant.   Having observed others go through their mid-70s and into their 80s, I have witnessed a marked change in spending behavior that just relates to general activity level.

Certainly not dismissing the point on elder health care and/or nursing home expenses, but I suppose that if nursing care did start to enter the picture, this is where one relies on a Living Trust and puts what assets you can into that (I already have one, but its a bit outdated) to protect what's left for others while your (or your trustee, on your behalf) spend down everything else in your final years and then.....

I also agree with people who have observed spending drastically go down later in life.  Most of the time, one of the couple has vastly more health issues and travel becomes too cumbersome or impossible.

Health expenses don't go out of control as long as there is still a healthy person in the household, unless the couple are wealthy and choose to have more help or if they move to a retirement / assisted living community.  Is anyone here considering a Long Term Care insurance policy?  I'm getting to net worth levels where I might consider having one just so all of the care doesn't fall on the healthy spouse...  Having extra help can really improve quality of life as well as take significant burden off of the children.

We will likely go back and look at it again but up to now our research and experience indicates LTC insurance is likely not worth it.
My mom had what looked like a fantastic policy, that she paid on for years. But when her cancer made life really difficult for her and she needed help we applied to get in home care and sadly she didn’t live past the waiting period.
I think for this group the better option is just to self fund.
The only case where LTC insurance might make sense would be Alzheimer’s disease. But even then I worry about eligibility, exclusions and waiting periods etc.

I know we will have enough money to provide a lot if not all the care we could need. How much is left for our heirs will depend on our longevity and over all health.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 09, 2023, 10:42:12 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on July 08, 2023, 11:31:20 PM

  Did you know that your cell phone will work up to a couple thousand feet in the air? 

Yes... I used to send texts from my airplane at 18,000ft. Not sure about voice because small airplanes have large engines mere inches away with no exhaust silencing. That and the 200 mph breeze make it a touch hard to hear..:)

 Its not legal to do so because your phone triggers every cell tower for hundreds of miles. I have never actually seen the law that makes it illegal though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 09, 2023, 11:08:34 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 09, 2023, 08:57:38 AM

We will likely go back and look at it again but up to now our research and experience indicates LTC insurance is likely not worth it.
My mom had what looked like a fantastic policy, that she paid on for years. But when her cancer made life really difficult for her and she needed help we applied to get in home care and sadly she didn’t live past the waiting period.
I think for this group the better option is just to self fund.
The only case where LTC insurance might make sense would be Alzheimer’s disease. But even then I worry about eligibility, exclusions and waiting periods etc.

I know we will have enough money to provide a lot if not all the care we could need. How much is left for our heirs will depend on our longevity and over all health.

We are at a point in life now where a lot of our friends and acquaintances parents are needing more care.  Some are couples with one really bad situation (Parkinson's, Alzheimer's / dementia, or just generally failing - disability, long term issues, etc.) and some are survivors that are failing.  They have hung on to trying to stay independent way too long, even though most of them have plenty of money...  it really is a tough final problem to come up with a good solution to.

I have a similar feeling toward getting a partial annuity.  Now that interest rates are a bit higher, they might make more sense.  There is never a clear one size fits all the situations answer though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 09, 2023, 11:51:15 AM

In the "Land of the Free", I think it's a shame we don't have legal euthanasia, except for our pets.  Many of my buddies and I say "If I ever reach that point I hope somebody will "help me out", but there's never anyone that actually will when we are in that crappy position.


My Dad feared death til The End, so I was never faced with that dilemma.  But DW and a close friend have both faced it within the past few months.  Of course, they couldn't do it.  (And obviously couldn't talk about it if they had.)  But it's just terrible that we live in an age with such incredible medical life-extending technologies, yet we're ethically opposed to allowing our citizens to pass away in a painless, dignified manner.  Who really wants to be hooked up to breathing machines indefinitely, or drooling on ourselves for years in a facility, covered in bedsores, and lying in soiled diapers?  All while paying $10+K per month for it!


Perhaps there is an offshore service that caters to this situation.  If so, I would certainly like to know about it. 


Sorry for such a "downer" post.  But this just has been on my mind lately.  I feel guilty mentioning it, but I feel that our financial privilege should somehow help us avoid this dreadful possibility.  (Facepunch me if I deserve it...) 


I blame all of this on our country's religious hangups and the capitalistic desire to milk us til our last dollar. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 09, 2023, 12:06:45 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 09, 2023, 11:51:15 AM

In the "Land of the Free", I think it's a shame we don't have legal euthanasia, except for our pets.  Many of my buddies and I say "If I ever reach that point I hope somebody will "help me out", but there's never anyone that actually will when we are in that crappy position.


My Dad feared death til The End, so I was never faced with that dilemma.  But DW and a close friend have both faced it within the past few months.  Of course, they couldn't do it.  (And obviously couldn't talk about it if they had.)  But it's just terrible that we live in an age with such incredible medical life-extending technologies, yet we're ethically opposed to allowing our citizens to pass away in a painless, dignified manner.  Who really wants to be hooked up to breathing machines indefinitely, or drooling on ourselves for years in a facility, covered in bedsores, and lying in soiled diapers?  All while paying $10+K per month for it!


Perhaps there is an offshore service that caters to this situation.  If so, I would certainly like to know about it. 


Sorry for such a "downer" post.  But this just has been on my mind lately.  I feel guilty mentioning it, but I feel that our financial privilege should somehow help us avoid this dreadful possibility.  (Facepunch me if I deserve it...) 


I blame all of this on our country's religious hangups and the capitalistic desire to milk us til our last dollar.

A number of countries have legal euthanasia.. If you can get there. I know of cases from TV where a couple with one of them terminal has flown to Belgium to get taken care of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia#:~:text=As%20of%202023%2C%20euthanasia%20is,%2C%20Victoria%20and%20Western%20Australia).

Oregon has Physician assisted suicide, but the Dr has to cerify you are likely to die within 6 months.. Doesn't work for Alzheimers of course.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 09, 2023, 12:15:01 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 09, 2023, 11:51:15 AM

In the "Land of the Free", I think it's a shame we don't have legal euthanasia, except for our pets.  Many of my buddies and I say "If I ever reach that point I hope somebody will "help me out", but there's never anyone that actually will when we are in that crappy position.


My Dad feared death til The End, so I was never faced with that dilemma.  But DW and a close friend have both faced it within the past few months.  Of course, they couldn't do it.  (And obviously couldn't talk about it if they had.)  But it's just terrible that we live in an age with such incredible medical life-extending technologies, yet we're ethically opposed to allowing our citizens to pass away in a painless, dignified manner.  Who really wants to be hooked up to breathing machines indefinitely, or drooling on ourselves for years in a facility, covered in bedsores, and lying in soiled diapers?  All while paying $10+K per month for it!


Perhaps there is an offshore service that caters to this situation.  If so, I would certainly like to know about it. 


Sorry for such a "downer" post.  But this just has been on my mind lately.  I feel guilty mentioning it, but I feel that our financial privilege should somehow help us avoid this dreadful possibility.  (Facepunch me if I deserve it...) 


I blame all of this on our country's religious hangups and the capitalistic desire to milk us til our last dollar.

I don’t disagree with you.
I’ve told this story here before so apologies if you’ve seen it. Years ago I worked at a very fancy “blue blood” country club. There was an old member who was a widow. For her 90th birthday she threw a huge party inviting all her friends and family. Live band, drinks dancing dinner. The works.
The next week she poured herself a drink, took a bottle of pills and took a bubble bath with classical music. The note she left her family was said to be loving and detailed but included something about “I believe that nothing good comes after 90”.
And that was it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 09, 2023, 02:08:31 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 09, 2023, 12:15:01 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 09, 2023, 11:51:15 AM

In the "Land of the Free", I think it's a shame we don't have legal euthanasia, except for our pets.  Many of my buddies and I say "If I ever reach that point I hope somebody will "help me out", but there's never anyone that actually will when we are in that crappy position.


My Dad feared death til The End, so I was never faced with that dilemma.  But DW and a close friend have both faced it within the past few months.  Of course, they couldn't do it.  (And obviously couldn't talk about it if they had.)  But it's just terrible that we live in an age with such incredible medical life-extending technologies, yet we're ethically opposed to allowing our citizens to pass away in a painless, dignified manner.  Who really wants to be hooked up to breathing machines indefinitely, or drooling on ourselves for years in a facility, covered in bedsores, and lying in soiled diapers?  All while paying $10+K per month for it!


Perhaps there is an offshore service that caters to this situation.  If so, I would certainly like to know about it. 


Sorry for such a "downer" post.  But this just has been on my mind lately.  I feel guilty mentioning it, but I feel that our financial privilege should somehow help us avoid this dreadful possibility.  (Facepunch me if I deserve it...) 


I blame all of this on our country's religious hangups and the capitalistic desire to milk us til our last dollar.

I don’t disagree with you.
I’ve told this story here before so apologies if you’ve seen it. Years ago I worked at a very fancy “blue blood” country club. There was an old member who was a widow. For her 90th birthday she threw a huge party inviting all her friends and family. Live band, drinks dancing dinner. The works.
The next week she poured herself a drink, took a bottle of pills and took a bubble bath with classical music. The note she left her family was said to be loving and detailed but included something about “I believe that nothing good comes after 90”.
And that was it.

Fully agree with all of this.  DW and I have an agreement that if either of us gets to that point, the other will "take care of it," but one wonders whether we actually would in that situation.  I know neither of us want to live that way.   I've often thought of it as the **alternative retirement plan** if the funds run out or if I become completely dependent on other people for day-to-day living needs.   

Man, I hope I'm not the one that has put us on the grim path.....somebody post some numbers or buy a yacht or something! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 09, 2023, 03:14:09 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 09, 2023, 02:08:31 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 09, 2023, 12:15:01 PM

Quote from: GreenEggs on July 09, 2023, 11:51:15 AM

In the "Land of the Free", I think it's a shame we don't have legal euthanasia, except for our pets.  Many of my buddies and I say "If I ever reach that point I hope somebody will "help me out", but there's never anyone that actually will when we are in that crappy position.


My Dad feared death til The End, so I was never faced with that dilemma.  But DW and a close friend have both faced it within the past few months.  Of course, they couldn't do it.  (And obviously couldn't talk about it if they had.)  But it's just terrible that we live in an age with such incredible medical life-extending technologies, yet we're ethically opposed to allowing our citizens to pass away in a painless, dignified manner.  Who really wants to be hooked up to breathing machines indefinitely, or drooling on ourselves for years in a facility, covered in bedsores, and lying in soiled diapers?  All while paying $10+K per month for it!


Perhaps there is an offshore service that caters to this situation.  If so, I would certainly like to know about it. 


Sorry for such a "downer" post.  But this just has been on my mind lately.  I feel guilty mentioning it, but I feel that our financial privilege should somehow help us avoid this dreadful possibility.  (Facepunch me if I deserve it...) 


I blame all of this on our country's religious hangups and the capitalistic desire to milk us til our last dollar.

I don’t disagree with you.
I’ve told this story here before so apologies if you’ve seen it. Years ago I worked at a very fancy “blue blood” country club. There was an old member who was a widow. For her 90th birthday she threw a huge party inviting all her friends and family. Live band, drinks dancing dinner. The works.
The next week she poured herself a drink, took a bottle of pills and took a bubble bath with classical music. The note she left her family was said to be loving and detailed but included something about “I believe that nothing good comes after 90”.
And that was it.

Fully agree with all of this.  DW and I have an agreement that if either of us gets to that point, the other will "take care of it," but one wonders whether we actually would in that situation.  I know neither of us want to live that way.   I've often thought of it as the **alternative retirement plan** if the funds run out or if I become completely dependent on other people for day-to-day living needs.   

Man, I hope I'm not the one that has put us on the grim path.....somebody post some numbers or buy a yacht or something!

We are throwing an engagement party for DD this coming weekend.  The wedding will be in Tuscany, in the Fall of 2024.  We've placed a deposit on a place that was originally a hunting villa for the Medici family, it sleeps about 50.  They're planning to have the ceremony on the grounds, but there is plenty of room, with beautiful ceilings & columns, for the ceremony as well as an ornate dining room. 
I was pleasantly surprised to find such places available for around $15K per week.  They are trying to keep the wedding small, but the host has additional cottages available nearby in case we need them.  We're planning to visit in November to meet the host & discuss the details. 


Since it's such a long flight, DW & I are planning to stay an extra week or so and visit Croatia or Greece.  If Covid wasn't still an issue, I'd suggest a cruise from Istambul to Lisbon.  But DW is still barely willing to eat inside restaurants, so there's no way she'll get on a cruise ship.  We still haven't caught Covid, so I can't argue with her diligence to be safe. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 09, 2023, 03:56:37 PM

While it is a sad conversation it’s a good reminder. I refuse to be overly cautious with our money in an effort to provide for some inevitable mountain of medical care costs. It’s quite likely we have enough to cover whatever and in the case of really extreme medical expenses, at that point money will be the least of my worries. And as far as being a burden to my children, I don’t care how much money you have for care, those last couple years are a burden of some sort to your family.
This is where my yolo kicks in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 09, 2023, 05:11:57 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 09, 2023, 02:08:31 PM

Fully agree with all of this.  DW and I have an agreement that if either of us gets to that point, the other will "take care of it," but one wonders whether we actually would in that situation.  I know neither of us want to live that way.   I've often thought of it as the **alternative retirement plan** if the funds run out or if I become completely dependent on other people for day-to-day living needs.   

Got a handgun? Then you got a retirement plan!...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 09, 2023, 07:10:55 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 09, 2023, 05:11:57 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 09, 2023, 02:08:31 PM

Fully agree with all of this.  DW and I have an agreement that if either of us gets to that point, the other will "take care of it," but one wonders whether we actually would in that situation.  I know neither of us want to live that way.   I've often thought of it as the **alternative retirement plan** if the funds run out or if I become completely dependent on other people for day-to-day living needs.   

Got a handgun? Then you got a retirement plan!...:)

LOL - Indeed!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 09, 2023, 07:13:40 PM

@GreenEggs , that sounds like an amazing wedding venue -- and you are right, it seems very reasonably priced.   Amazing how much weddings cost these days!   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 10, 2023, 08:35:48 PM

So I leave for France in 4 days.  Today I realized I couldn’t take my work cell phone with me if I wanted to.  We have a major project that is just starting to really get rolling.  I “can’t” access email for two glorious weeks.  I can’t wait.  It’s the first international trip I’ve taken in 3 years.  I’ve never wondered should I bring my phone before.  In the US I still bring it and while I don’t work, I do check it every couple of days in case there is something “important”.  I can’t wait.  Also I’m just waiting to see some logistical stuff before I plan next years overseas trip as this is super amazing to me right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on July 10, 2023, 08:49:20 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 10, 2023, 08:35:48 PM

So I leave for France in 4 days.  Today I realized I couldn’t take my work cell phone with me if I wanted to.  We have a major project that is just starting to really get rolling.  I “can’t” access email for two glorious weeks.  I can’t wait.  It’s the first international trip I’ve taken in 3 years.  I’ve never wondered should I bring my phone before.  In the US I still bring it and while I don’t work, I do check it every couple of days in case there is something “important”.  I can’t wait.  Also I’m just waiting to see some logistical stuff before I plan next years overseas trip as this is super amazing to me right now.

I can completely understand not wanting to bring it, but... why not bring it if you want to? All the US carriers' phones work in Europe these days (I'm guessing your work phone is less than five years old).

Moreover, I don't get the 'I can't access email' bit either. Again I wouldn't want to but that's different than being unable to.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 10, 2023, 10:59:50 PM

Quote from: jeroly on July 10, 2023, 08:49:20 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 10, 2023, 08:35:48 PM

So I leave for France in 4 days.  Today I realized I couldn’t take my work cell phone with me if I wanted to.  We have a major project that is just starting to really get rolling.  I “can’t” access email for two glorious weeks.  I can’t wait.  It’s the first international trip I’ve taken in 3 years.  I’ve never wondered should I bring my phone before.  In the US I still bring it and while I don’t work, I do check it every couple of days in case there is something “important”.  I can’t wait.  Also I’m just waiting to see some logistical stuff before I plan next years overseas trip as this is super amazing to me right now.

I can completely understand not wanting to bring it, but... why not bring it if you want to? All the US carriers' phones work in Europe these days (I'm guessing your work phone is less than five years old).

Moreover, I don't get the 'I can't access email' bit either. Again I wouldn't want to but that's different than being unable to.

Work rules.  I bring my personal phone.  I’m not allowed to bring the one that belongs to work internationally unless it is a work trip.  I cannot access my work e-mail from my personal phone.

ETA:  my work phone is an IPhone.  Work locks it down so much I call it my “I don’t work right phone”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 11, 2023, 04:54:02 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 10, 2023, 10:59:50 PM

Quote from: jeroly on July 10, 2023, 08:49:20 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 10, 2023, 08:35:48 PM

So I leave for France in 4 days.  Today I realized I couldn’t take my work cell phone with me if I wanted to.  We have a major project that is just starting to really get rolling.  I “can’t” access email for two glorious weeks.  I can’t wait.  It’s the first international trip I’ve taken in 3 years.  I’ve never wondered should I bring my phone before.  In the US I still bring it and while I don’t work, I do check it every couple of days in case there is something “important”.  I can’t wait.  Also I’m just waiting to see some logistical stuff before I plan next years overseas trip as this is super amazing to me right now.

I can completely understand not wanting to bring it, but... why not bring it if you want to? All the US carriers' phones work in Europe these days (I'm guessing your work phone is less than five years old).

Moreover, I don't get the 'I can't access email' bit either. Again I wouldn't want to but that's different than being unable to.

Work rules.  I bring my personal phone.  I’m not allowed to bring the one that belongs to work internationally unless it is a work trip.  I cannot access my work e-mail from my personal phone.

ETA:  my work phone is an IPhone.  Work locks it down so much I call it my “I don’t work right phone”

I no longer work.  Was it just me or were the IT departments working harder and harder to control any digital device.  We had laptops used for testing other equipment and they had to get their paws into the control of that equipment even though it barely interfaced with their network.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on July 11, 2023, 05:24:49 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 11, 2023, 04:54:02 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 10, 2023, 10:59:50 PM

Quote from: jeroly on July 10, 2023, 08:49:20 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 10, 2023, 08:35:48 PM

So I leave for France in 4 days.  Today I realized I couldn’t take my work cell phone with me if I wanted to.  We have a major project that is just starting to really get rolling.  I “can’t” access email for two glorious weeks.  I can’t wait.  It’s the first international trip I’ve taken in 3 years.  I’ve never wondered should I bring my phone before.  In the US I still bring it and while I don’t work, I do check it every couple of days in case there is something “important”.  I can’t wait.  Also I’m just waiting to see some logistical stuff before I plan next years overseas trip as this is super amazing to me right now.

I can completely understand not wanting to bring it, but... why not bring it if you want to? All the US carriers' phones work in Europe these days (I'm guessing your work phone is less than five years old).

Moreover, I don't get the 'I can't access email' bit either. Again I wouldn't want to but that's different than being unable to.

Work rules.  I bring my personal phone.  I’m not allowed to bring the one that belongs to work internationally unless it is a work trip.  I cannot access my work e-mail from my personal phone.

ETA:  my work phone is an IPhone.  Work locks it down so much I call it my “I don’t work right phone”

I no longer work.  Was it just me or were the IT departments working harder and harder to control any digital device.  We had laptops used for testing other equipment and they had to get their paws into the control of that equipment even though it barely interfaced with their network.

There are for sure some very good reasons for the tight control. However, at my megacorp we think everything we write is some sort of atom splitting genius and most of the controls they put in place are around IP protection. 99.99% of the stuff we do is no more IP than a simple beam calculation is. I manage a document that lays out how to apply some heat transfer equations to some exhaust gas. It is so locked down that I sometimes wonder if they think the Coke recipe is embedded in it.

The result is a phone (and almost laptop…) that I can’t really do much work on. I love the “I don’t work right phone” moniker.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 11, 2023, 07:28:08 AM

Quote from: pecunia on July 11, 2023, 04:54:02 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 10, 2023, 10:59:50 PM

Quote from: jeroly on July 10, 2023, 08:49:20 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on July 10, 2023, 08:35:48 PM

So I leave for France in 4 days.  Today I realized I couldn’t take my work cell phone with me if I wanted to.  We have a major project that is just starting to really get rolling.  I “can’t” access email for two glorious weeks.  I can’t wait.  It’s the first international trip I’ve taken in 3 years.  I’ve never wondered should I bring my phone before.  In the US I still bring it and while I don’t work, I do check it every couple of days in case there is something “important”.  I can’t wait.  Also I’m just waiting to see some logistical stuff before I plan next years overseas trip as this is super amazing to me right now.

I can completely understand not wanting to bring it, but... why not bring it if you want to? All the US carriers' phones work in Europe these days (I'm guessing your work phone is less than five years old).

Moreover, I don't get the 'I can't access email' bit either. Again I wouldn't want to but that's different than being unable to.

Work rules.  I bring my personal phone.  I’m not allowed to bring the one that belongs to work internationally unless it is a work trip.  I cannot access my work e-mail from my personal phone.

ETA:  my work phone is an IPhone.  Work locks it down so much I call it my “I don’t work right phone”

I no longer work.  Was it just me or were the IT departments working harder and harder to control any digital device.  We had laptops used for testing other equipment and they had to get their paws into the control of that equipment even though it barely interfaced with their network.

My work place has always been um extremely controlling.  I have a separate work computer that I use for one side of my job that cannot interface with the regular network and need to use our quest network because I need to basically be able to manipulate the computer and run software programs that is 100% not allowed on my regular work computer.  On the I don’t work right phone, currently we cannot send group texts, on texts to individuals and no photos can be sent via text.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on July 11, 2023, 11:53:51 AM

I officially work a little less than 20hrs/wk right now, and not putting my work email on my phone was the best work move I have ever made.  The time/thought creep that occurs from having accessible work email away from the laptop is extreme and at that point may as well work a full time job. Workdays I dont schedule to work I usually check my email from my laptop once in the evening and then call it a day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on July 11, 2023, 01:09:21 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on July 11, 2023, 11:53:51 AM

I officially work a little less than 20hrs/wk right now, and not putting my work email on my phone was the best work move I have ever made.  The time/thought creep that occurs from having accessible work email away from the laptop is extreme and at that point may as well work a full time job. Workdays I dont schedule to work I usually check my email from my laptop once in the evening and then call it a day.

I agree. I never have and never will have my work email, or any other work related thing, on any of my personal devices.  Since my work is soul crushing enough as it is, I like to keep it separate from my personal life!

 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 11, 2023, 01:54:07 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on July 11, 2023, 01:09:21 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on July 11, 2023, 11:53:51 AM

I officially work a little less than 20hrs/wk right now, and not putting my work email on my phone was the best work move I have ever made.  The time/thought creep that occurs from having accessible work email away from the laptop is extreme and at that point may as well work a full time job. Workdays I dont schedule to work I usually check my email from my laptop once in the evening and then call it a day.

I agree. I never have and never will have my work email, or any other work related thing, on any of my personal devices.  Since my work is soul crushing enough as it is, I like to keep it separate from my personal life!

You have never experienced the sheer misery of a torture instrument that we were forced to use called Pager Duty. In the the old days we used to sell software on tape or later on CDs or DVDs. Nowadays of course, nobody sells software anymore - you offer it software a service on the Internet. If anything goes wrong with a web service, it typically needs to get fixed ASAP since it's always working hours somewhere in the world.

For a while, I was responsible for a high-profile AI web service offered by the company I worked for. Since no-one  in the ops team knew anything about my product, any production outage would usually get escalated up to me. The Pager Duty app on my phone would then wake me up, typically at 2am on a bitterly cold night. I was actually forced to keep notifications turned on 😡

It took me several months for me to train enough of the ops team to handle problems and finally get off pager duty. I will admit that the pay was great but not enough to compensate for being on call all the time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on July 11, 2023, 02:19:18 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 11, 2023, 01:54:07 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on July 11, 2023, 01:09:21 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on July 11, 2023, 11:53:51 AM

I officially work a little less than 20hrs/wk right now, and not putting my work email on my phone was the best work move I have ever made.  The time/thought creep that occurs from having accessible work email away from the laptop is extreme and at that point may as well work a full time job. Workdays I dont schedule to work I usually check my email from my laptop once in the evening and then call it a day.

I agree. I never have and never will have my work email, or any other work related thing, on any of my personal devices.  Since my work is soul crushing enough as it is, I like to keep it separate from my personal life!

You have never experienced the sheer misery of a torture instrument that we were forced to use called Pager Duty. In the the old days we used to sell software on tape or later on CDs or DVDs. Nowadays of course, nobody sells software anymore - you offer it software a service on the Internet. If anything goes wrong with a web service, it typically needs to get fixed ASAP since it's always working hours somewhere in the world.

For a while, I was responsible for a high-profile AI web service offered by the company I worked for. Since no-one  in the ops team knew anything about my product, any production outage would usually get escalated up to me. The Pager Duty app on my phone would then wake me up, typically at 2am on a bitterly cold night. I was actually forced to keep notifications turned on 😡

It took me several months for me to train enough of the ops team to handle problems and finally get off pager duty. I will admit that the pay was great but not enough to compensate for being on call all the time.

Well..just because I don't have work email, etc... on my phone doesn't mean my phone number is unavailable.  It is...for "emergencies".  Thankfully, I haven't been called very many times....but it has happened ( I work in systems design and programming ).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on July 11, 2023, 09:25:42 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 11, 2023, 01:54:07 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on July 11, 2023, 01:09:21 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on July 11, 2023, 11:53:51 AM

I officially work a little less than 20hrs/wk right now, and not putting my work email on my phone was the best work move I have ever made.  The time/thought creep that occurs from having accessible work email away from the laptop is extreme and at that point may as well work a full time job. Workdays I dont schedule to work I usually check my email from my laptop once in the evening and then call it a day.

I agree. I never have and never will have my work email, or any other work related thing, on any of my personal devices.  Since my work is soul crushing enough as it is, I like to keep it separate from my personal life!

You have never experienced the sheer misery of a torture instrument that we were forced to use called Pager Duty. In the the old days we used to sell software on tape or later on CDs or DVDs. Nowadays of course, nobody sells software anymore - you offer it software a service on the Internet. If anything goes wrong with a web service, it typically needs to get fixed ASAP since it's always working hours somewhere in the world.

For a while, I was responsible for a high-profile AI web service offered by the company I worked for. Since no-one  in the ops team knew anything about my product, any production outage would usually get escalated up to me. The Pager Duty app on my phone would then wake me up, typically at 2am on a bitterly cold night. I was actually forced to keep notifications turned on 😡

It took me several months for me to train enough of the ops team to handle problems and finally get off pager duty. I will admit that the pay was great but not enough to compensate for being on call all the time.

I miss my pager.  People only paged you at 2am when they needed you to answer.  Work thinks noting about sending monthly stats out at 2am via e-mail.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on July 12, 2023, 03:36:37 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on July 11, 2023, 02:19:18 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 11, 2023, 01:54:07 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on July 11, 2023, 01:09:21 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on July 11, 2023, 11:53:51 AM

I officially work a little less than 20hrs/wk right now, and not putting my work email on my phone was the best work move I have ever made.  The time/thought creep that occurs from having accessible work email away from the laptop is extreme and at that point may as well work a full time job. Workdays I dont schedule to work I usually check my email from my laptop once in the evening and then call it a day.

I agree. I never have and never will have my work email, or any other work related thing, on any of my personal devices.  Since my work is soul crushing enough as it is, I like to keep it separate from my personal life!

You have never experienced the sheer misery of a torture instrument that we were forced to use called Pager Duty. In the the old days we used to sell software on tape or later on CDs or DVDs. Nowadays of course, nobody sells software anymore - you offer it software a service on the Internet. If anything goes wrong with a web service, it typically needs to get fixed ASAP since it's always working hours somewhere in the world.

For a while, I was responsible for a high-profile AI web service offered by the company I worked for. Since no-one  in the ops team knew anything about my product, any production outage would usually get escalated up to me. The Pager Duty app on my phone would then wake me up, typically at 2am on a bitterly cold night. I was actually forced to keep notifications turned on 😡

It took me several months for me to train enough of the ops team to handle problems and finally get off pager duty. I will admit that the pay was great but not enough to compensate for being on call all the time.

Well..just because I don't have work email, etc... on my phone doesn't mean my phone number is unavailable.  It is...for "emergencies".  Thankfully, I haven't been called very many times....but it has happened ( I work in systems design and programming ).

Oh, i definitely get the occasional emergency phone call, but they are few and far between and more to the point I dont really mind them because its always a case where I was actually needed at that time as opposed to the 99% of the email I used to get that somehow sucks my time and energy

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: baludon on July 12, 2023, 08:56:33 PM

Turning in my work phone was one of best thing about retirement.  I hated carrying two phones at all times.  I cringe every time my work phone rings after hours because I know there's a problem I have to fix at that very moment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on July 13, 2023, 10:54:17 AM

Quote from: baludon on July 12, 2023, 08:56:33 PM

Turning in my work phone was one of best thing about retirement.  I hated carrying two phones at all times.  I cringe every time my work phone rings after hours because I know there's a problem I have to fix at that very moment.

Thank god I don't have a dedicated work phone.  Sometimes "unidentified" numbers will call and I'm somewhat positive it may be work.  I...uhh...don't answer it.  They can leave a message if it is that urgent ( and they have ).   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 14, 2023, 01:53:17 AM

So I think I'll contact an Ed Jones representative tomorrow.   He's handling many accounts for my former coworkers.  Doubt I'm giving him my accounts to manage.  I just need to nudge him to tell wife we are ready for retirement.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on July 14, 2023, 02:46:05 AM

Edward Jones is a fuckin scam factory. Good luck.....they are worthless.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 14, 2023, 04:37:44 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on July 14, 2023, 02:46:05 AM

Edward Jones is a fuckin scam factory. Good luck.....they are worthless.

I'm having second thoughts already.
Basically used car/timeshare salesmen

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 14, 2023, 06:26:57 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 14, 2023, 04:37:44 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on July 14, 2023, 02:46:05 AM

Edward Jones is a fuckin scam factory. Good luck.....they are worthless.

I'm having second thoughts already.
Basically used car/timeshare salesmen

Oh don’t get me started on EJ. Absolutely the worst of the worst. I’m not sure any of them are actually qualified to do what they do. Condolences to your co-workers that use them.

Maybe look at a fee only financial planner? Someone that is going to evaluate your values as a couple along with your net worth and then help direct you. It’s too easy for someone selling something to tell you that more is better.
I use the free planner you get when you qualify for wealth services (or whatever they call it) at Fidelity. I’ve been impressed with him. You still have to do the investing or changes yourself and as far as I know he doesn’t make anything based on what he advises us to do. He’s just more of a sounding board and helps us go through an annual review process and helps us determine what we need to do to rebalance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 14, 2023, 06:48:57 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 14, 2023, 06:26:57 AM

I use the free planner you get when you qualify for wealth services (or whatever they call it) at Fidelity. I’ve been impressed with him. You still have to do the investing or changes yourself and as far as I know he doesn’t make anything based on what he advises us to do. He’s just more of a sounding board and helps us go through an annual review process and helps us determine what we need to do to rebalance.

Same here - I have an assigned rep at Fidelity who has been very helpful over the years. The rep has changed every few years but they have all generally been pleasant to work with. I don't get hard upsells and have made some good suggestions, especially with respect to managing the non-stock part of my portfolio.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on July 14, 2023, 09:10:50 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 14, 2023, 04:37:44 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on July 14, 2023, 02:46:05 AM

Edward Jones is a fuckin scam factory. Good luck.....they are worthless.

I'm having second thoughts already.
Basically used car/timeshare salesmen

Sadly this is who my father is using, thanks to some sort of communication bungling of the Schwab transfer of USAA accounts.  He left Schwab in a huff and went 100% with someone who my parents knew through church.  Fortunately his retirement funding is primarily through 2 pensions and not dependent on the small amounts he has in retirement accounts.

Having had accounts with both USAA and TDA myself, I do have to say that Schwab's communication with TDA account holders has been far more clear for the TDA conversions than it was for the USAA one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 14, 2023, 09:35:33 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 14, 2023, 06:48:57 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 14, 2023, 06:26:57 AM

I use the free planner you get when you qualify for wealth services (or whatever they call it) at Fidelity. I’ve been impressed with him. You still have to do the investing or changes yourself and as far as I know he doesn’t make anything based on what he advises us to do. He’s just more of a sounding board and helps us go through an annual review process and helps us determine what we need to do to rebalance.

Same here - I have an assigned rep at Fidelity who has been very helpful over the years. The rep has changed every few years but they have all generally been pleasant to work with. I don't get hard upsells and have made some good suggestions, especially with respect to managing the non-stock part of my portfolio.

I am really glad that I was introduced to Fidelity through my 401k years ago. Otherwise I would have probably gone with Vanguard because that's what everyone preaches. In my experience Fidelity offers the same low cost fund options (including Vanguard funds) but their customer support is far superior. I can do everything myself if I want, or I can use them as a sounding board. If I want a different opinion on something my advisor recommended I can easily call someone else in the network and ask for a second opinion. They even offer free tax and estate planning guidance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 15, 2023, 07:07:42 AM

The other thing that Fidelity has going for it is pretty darn good retirement planner feature on its website.  I tend to focus on my own spreadsheet approach, but its really useful as a second or triple-check to make sure I'm not way off on a key assumption.  These kind of tools have come a long ways, I know, but theirs seems to do a reasonably good job and has a fair bit of flexibility.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 15, 2023, 07:55:08 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 15, 2023, 07:07:42 AM

The other thing that Fidelity has going for it is pretty darn good retirement planner feature on its website.  I tend to focus on my own spreadsheet approach, but its really useful as a second or triple-check to make sure I'm not way off on a key assumption.  These kind of tools have come a long ways, I know, but theirs seems to do a reasonably good job and has a fair bit of flexibility.

I need to check out Fidelity. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 15, 2023, 10:41:05 AM

Yup I have most of my pretax investments with Fidelity and my after tax with Vanguard.

Every 6 months or so I get a courtesy call from Fidelity asking me if I need anything (I don't provide any personal info because you never know if its a scammer).

The last time I used their website was 5 years or so back but even then it was pretty good.

Ooh question.. I have a couple of 401k plans that are orphans in weird places that I would like to consolidate into my Vanguard Traditional IRA.. Do I have to sell the 401k positions or are the positions themselves transferred? I.e if the fund jumps up in value I don't want to lose out by being in cash during the transfer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 15, 2023, 12:40:28 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 15, 2023, 10:41:05 AM

Yup I have most of my pretax investments with Fidelity and my after tax with Vanguard.

Every 6 months or so I get a courtesy call from Fidelity asking me if I need anything (I don't provide any personal info because you never know if its a scammer).

The last time I used their website was 5 years or so back but even then it was pretty good.

Ooh question.. I have a couple of 401k plans that are orphans in weird places that I would like to consolidate into my Vanguard Traditional IRA.. Do I have to sell the 401k positions or are the positions themselves transferred? I.e if the fund jumps up in value I don't want to lose out by being in cash during the transfer.

I've done this several times to consolidate all of my pre tax money in one IRA. Typically they will liquidate the 401k and send the full amount to your IRA.  However in the case of a Merrill Lynch IRA that I moved into my main  IRA, I received the actual securities.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on July 15, 2023, 01:37:50 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 15, 2023, 12:40:28 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 15, 2023, 10:41:05 AM

Yup I have most of my pretax investments with Fidelity and my after tax with Vanguard.

Every 6 months or so I get a courtesy call from Fidelity asking me if I need anything (I don't provide any personal info because you never know if its a scammer).

The last time I used their website was 5 years or so back but even then it was pretty good.

Ooh question.. I have a couple of 401k plans that are orphans in weird places that I would like to consolidate into my Vanguard Traditional IRA.. Do I have to sell the 401k positions or are the positions themselves transferred? I.e if the fund jumps up in value I don't want to lose out by being in cash during the transfer.

I've done this several times to consolidate all of my pre tax money in one IRA. Typically they will liquidate the 401k and send the full amount to your IRA.  However in the case of a Merrill Lynch IRA that I moved into my main  IRA, I received the actual securities.

If you're invested in ETFs or individual stocks then the broker can do an in-kind transfer. If you're in mutual funds then you're going to have to liquidate. Since it's in a 401k it doesn't really matter for tax reasons but you could get lucky/unlucky depending on how the market moves while the transfer is taking place.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: catccc on July 15, 2023, 10:51:47 PM

Officially rejoining this thread.  Hit $2M a couple days ago. In late 2021 it looked like it was just around the corner, and then 2022 happened.

I am really having a hard time deciding if I like my job or if it stresses me out, and if I should keep working or not.

DH doesn’t like his job, but feels it is unfair to retire before I do.  I am fine with it, but I would expect that he take on a lot of the domestic duties are currently split but still mostly on me.

I’m thinking maybe we get to $3M and then really I quit?  But I said that about $2M before, so IDK.

I keep doing well at work and they keep paying me more, so I feel like I gotta strike while it’s hot.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 16, 2023, 06:28:30 AM

Quote from: catccc on July 15, 2023, 10:51:47 PM

Officially rejoining this thread.  Hit $2M a couple days ago. In late 2021 it looked like it was just around the corner, and then 2022 happened.

I am really having a hard time deciding if I like my job or if it stresses me out, and if I should keep working or not.

DH doesn’t like his job, but feels it is unfair to retire before I do.  I am fine with it, but I would expect that he take on a lot of the domestic duties are currently split but still mostly on me.

I’m thinking maybe we get to $3M and then really I quit?  But I said that about $2M before, so IDK.

I keep doing well at work and they keep paying me more, so I feel like I gotta strike while it’s hot.

@catccc
Welcome back!!
We are just a year or two ahead of you in terms of our ages and our kids ages. I FIREd in 2020 (but have been doing a bit of contract work) DH is still working. He loves his job and it covers our crazy crazy tuition bills and provides great insurance. He plans to stay 10 more years but we’ll see what happens.
I’ve found FIRE during this time with the kids to be really helpful because they need to be driven so many places all the time!!  But it’s also frustrating because we can’t really travel until the kids are out of school. Which is another reason DH has been happy to keep working and I’ve done some contact work. We are tied to the house because of the school schedule anyway might as well bring in a little money!
The other difficulty I’ve found in FIRE with kids is that I’m never quite sure what our expenses will be. Tuition is a lot but it’s mostly known. The sports bills really add up and tend to fluctuate. We will have a new driver soon and I have no idea what insurance and vehicle costs will be for him. I’m not sure what college will really be either. And while all these things can be really expensive they will start to significantly taper off in 8 years.
All that to say, I’m glad to be FI. I’m sure you are too. But I can understand with kids the allure of continuing to work and earn more at least until they are (mostly) flown.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 16, 2023, 08:35:30 AM

Quote from: catccc on July 15, 2023, 10:51:47 PM

Officially rejoining this thread.  Hit $2M a couple days ago. In late 2021 it looked like it was just around the corner, and then 2022 happened.

I am really having a hard time deciding if I like my job or if it stresses me out, and if I should keep working or not.

DH doesn’t like his job, but feels it is unfair to retire before I do.  I am fine with it, but I would expect that he take on a lot of the domestic duties are currently split but still mostly on me.

I’m thinking maybe we get to $3M and then really I quit?  But I said that about $2M before, so IDK.

I keep doing well at work and they keep paying me more, so I feel like I gotta strike while it’s hot.

Here's the thing that hit me when it finally rolled into my head and I didn't have to be on the job.  Because I was no longer dependent on the job, it was like a weight lifted.  I could smile at some of the stuff that used to weigh me down.  In a sort of way, I became in charge and not "them."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ca-rn on July 16, 2023, 11:57:46 AM

Finally firmly crossed over from the Race from 1M to 2M to this thread!

As with lots of folks on the cusp, took a nosedive sometime in 2020 and road the turbulent ride but now back to ATH and crossed over into the 2M territory.

I'm close to my planned FIRE number but need/want to stay working part time until 55 for the Rule of 55.

My biggest mental hangup is going to be choosing and paying for healthcare.  I'm healthy- eat mostly plant based, exercise (hike/bike/yoga) etc and almost never use my free employer paid insurance. 

I've mentally allotted 100k to cover insurance/deductible/copays to cover me from 55-65. It is a small amount compared to my FIRE number but the cheap/frugal me still resists the idea of paying "a lot" for something I rarely use and got free all these years.

I've been mentally gearing myself up for a couple of years but frugal habits are hard to break- I spend more freely overall but still (automatically) first look for the "best price". 

I'll catch myself doing it and then compare the potential money saved vs the time spent looking to save a few bucks.  Even though I have more free time, I try to stay balanced and relax a bit more with spending. 

My siblings/friends/coworkers (who aren't savers) seem to have such an easy time spending money... I don't want to be compelled to spend to the max but would like to be able to spend more freely too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 16, 2023, 01:56:13 PM

@ca-rn I suspect that when you get there you will find that HC cost is not really a big deal, especially if you have 1) a relatively low yearly expenditure and 2) Some after tax savings you can live on prior to age 65.

I was poking around on the ACA website and up to $54k the monthly cost for a Bronze plan for two people at 62 and 58 was $2:92 per month.. Yes it has a large max OOP.. ($14,000,, or $7,000 if only one of you has a large problem.. like a broken wrist in my case.

At $60,000 income that same plan is $20/month.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on July 16, 2023, 02:03:13 PM

Quote from: ca-rn on July 16, 2023, 11:57:46 AM

My biggest mental hangup is going to be choosing and paying for healthcare.  I'm healthy- eat mostly plant based, exercise (hike/bike/yoga) etc and almost never use my free employer paid insurance. 

I've mentally allotted 100k to cover insurance/deductible/copays to cover me from 55-65. It is a small amount compared to my FIRE number but the cheap/frugal me still resists the idea of paying "a lot" for something I rarely use and got free all these years.

I wonder if the “mental hangup” is worse for those of us who have little to no experience with having healthcare costs? Since entering the corporate world 23 years ago I have paid exactly four bills outside of normal yearly blood work costs or office copays. And all four of them together total about $1500. This makes the whole world of healthcare very unknown and mysterious to me. I think this makes me more apprehensive about costs in the future.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 16, 2023, 03:19:08 PM

@ATtiny85 Well its certainly a real thing, especially if you have a chronic condition and you would need to buy a higher level of care than what I described above, but is not impossible to budget for.

Take my example of the Bronze plan above for $2:92 month. Lets assume one member of a couple has a chronic condition. In that case if you bought a Bronze plan you would be forking out $7000/year.

So if you got $7k built into your budget than its all good right? Of course you would probably buy a higher level of HC to have lower max OOP at the expense of a higher monthly cost.

But you're right I think its more a fear of the unknown. When you look at the actual numbers its a lot less scary, especially as there is now much more patient protection against surprise medical bills than there was even just last year!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on July 16, 2023, 05:42:18 PM

@Exflyboy , I appreciate both of these recent posts. Nice to see some real numbers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 16, 2023, 06:11:28 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on July 16, 2023, 05:42:18 PM

@Exflyboy , I appreciate both of these recent posts. Nice to see some real numbers.

Your welcome. It just so happens I was asked how much I would want if I got back to work 2 days a week for 3 months.. Of course that means the ACA subsidy gets reduced with more income.. So I did some analysis and was surprised to find that we could earn Quite a bit more without it affecting the subsidy very much.

You can go on the Healthcare.gov and get your own prices for you situation without logging in, so then you will have real numbers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on July 16, 2023, 06:34:16 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 16, 2023, 06:28:30 AM

Quote from: catccc on July 15, 2023, 10:51:47 PM

Officially rejoining this thread.  Hit $2M a couple days ago. In late 2021 it looked like it was just around the corner, and then 2022 happened.

I am really having a hard time deciding if I like my job or if it stresses me out, and if I should keep working or not.

DH doesn’t like his job, but feels it is unfair to retire before I do.  I am fine with it, but I would expect that he take on a lot of the domestic duties are currently split but still mostly on me.

I’m thinking maybe we get to $3M and then really I quit?  But I said that about $2M before, so IDK.

I keep doing well at work and they keep paying me more, so I feel like I gotta strike while it’s hot.

@catccc
Welcome back!!
We are just a year or two ahead of you in terms of our ages and our kids ages. I FIREd in 2020 (but have been doing a bit of contract work) DH is still working. He loves his job and it covers our crazy crazy tuition bills and provides great insurance. He plans to stay 10 more years but we’ll see what happens.
I’ve found FIRE during this time with the kids to be really helpful because they need to be driven so many places all the time!!  But it’s also frustrating because we can’t really travel until the kids are out of school. Which is another reason DH has been happy to keep working and I’ve done some contact work. We are tied to the house because of the school schedule anyway might as well bring in a little money!
The other difficulty I’ve found in FIRE with kids is that I’m never quite sure what our expenses will be. Tuition is a lot but it’s mostly known. The sports bills really add up and tend to fluctuate. We will have a new driver soon and I have no idea what insurance and vehicle costs will be for him. I’m not sure what college will really be either. And while all these things can be really expensive they will start to significantly taper off in 8 years.
All that to say, I’m glad to be FI. I’m sure you are too. But I can understand with kids the allure of continuing to work and earn more at least until they are (mostly) flown.

BC - I am with you as you know having commented on some of my posts.   Big time struggle having kids aging into driving and college....and wanting to do some great family time trips to lock in the time and memories for years to come (just got back from a kick ass trip to Hawaii).   Kids activity costs are still high but only a year or few left of that, and college costs are overwhelming but we have set aside an amount that covers all but the most expensive schools.......wish i could be like most and buy a vacation home and let my kids be overly indebted from school, but alas I am a sucker.   It's probably still not enough.   

I went back to work and while sucks, I think the original rationale holds and thus far was worth it even if i hate it and I am unhealthier than I was.....setting aside significantly more for college costs and covering a couple of spendy memorable trips was worth it.   

But not for much longer....my state on a mental and physical basis can best be compared to that guy in the Supersize Me documentary.   Sure, some will say it's not worth even in the short term but to each their own. 

TLDR....having 3 teens in a multitude of activies and are likely college bound is F'ing expensive , and for years to come.   

ETA....about 10 years ago I thought we has "Enough" which by the way was less than half of what we have now on an inflation adjusted basis.   At the time, my oldest was 7 and what we had relative to our expenses was spot on....except that our expenses grew as they grew.....everything cost more (food, medical, activities.....did I say activities....oh and trips for 5 cost a f'ck ton...always something.....oh yeah, and then we started thinking about college....WTF).   Without kids no doubt we would have been golden.....butbi love those little (now big f'ers).

The only problem is that bc I was wrong I continue to think I was wrong and I really am not sure how much we need....even though I think we are good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ca-rn on July 16, 2023, 09:30:38 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 16, 2023, 01:56:13 PM

@ca-rn I suspect that when you get there you will find that HC cost is not really a big deal, especially if you have 1) a relatively low yearly expenditure and 2) Some after tax savings you can live on prior to age 65.

I was poking around on the ACA website and up to $54k the monthly cost for a Bronze plan for two people at 62 and 58 was $2:92 per month.. Yes it has a large max OOP.. ($14,000,, or $7,000 if only one of you has a large problem.. like a broken wrist in my case.

At $60,000 income that same plan is $20/month.
[/quote

Thank you, I'll have to take a look again.  I do have rental income which will probably be around 38-43k/year and am a single tax filer.  I plan to do some 401k to RothIra conversions but will most likely alternate having high (conversion year) and low income (no conversion) or go up to a defined tax bracket.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 16, 2023, 10:59:26 PM

@ca-rn Yes ROTH conversions.. I am tentatively planning to wait on those till I am on Medicare (age 65) where medical cost are relatively fixed independent of income.. I'm hoping that the RMD age moves to 75 by the time I get there.

Medical costs are going to be way higher on Medicare though.. Ouch!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 17, 2023, 03:10:01 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on July 16, 2023, 06:34:16 PM

The only problem is that bc I was wrong I continue to think I was wrong and I really am not sure how much we need....even though I think we are good.

That's the main question that we all have to deal with :-)

 I retired right before my younger one started college but we had set aside her entire college expenses in a separate account which I don't include in my retirement planning (wife insisted on this as she is a lot more risk averse than me). Also, thankfully, my daughter picked a state school. Even with out-of-state tuition, it still a lot less expensive than most private schools.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 17, 2023, 06:11:35 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 17, 2023, 03:10:01 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on July 16, 2023, 06:34:16 PM

The only problem is that bc I was wrong I continue to think I was wrong and I really am not sure how much we need....even though I think we are good.

That's the main question that we all have to deal with :-)

 I retired right before my younger one started college but we had set aside her entire college expenses in a separate account which I don't include in my retirement planning (wife insisted on this as she is a lot more risk averse than me). Also, thankfully, my daughter picked a state school. Even with out-of-state tuition, it still a lot less expensive than most private schools.

If you have a daughter(s) don't forget to include the price of a wedding.  It's hard to cheap-out on DD's wedding when you're in this thread.  Social media seems to have really helped the wedding industry bump up the expectations of what brides (and their moms) dream of.  Thankfully we're really happy with DD's fiancee and his family.  Otherwise, it would be much more difficult to be happy covering the costs. 


I don't know what most of you are willing to pay, but I offered them a budget of $50K.  That seems generous, from my perspective.  What do you guys think?  DD's parents gave us $10K thirty years ago, but their NW wasn't $7M.  They said that they want a small wedding, of about 50-60 guests (including the wedding party), but want to have it in Italy.  The venue cost $15K for the week, so I figured $50K should cover the food, flowers, photography, etc., plus airfare (for the 3 of us). 


I may offer a bit more later if their plans seem reasonable & the budget begins to look a bit tight.  But DD & BF make $200K+/- combined & his folks' NW seems to be in excess of ours, so I'm thinking someone else can pull out a checkbook if they feel the need.  Am I sounding like a cheapskate? 


DD is an only child, so there's no president to be concerned about.  We can obviously afford more, but I don't enjoy wasteful consumption and I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. 


What are your views about weddings?  Do you think my numbers and my reasoning seem reasonable?  (DD seemed pleased with the budget, and said that they'd be happy to cover any additional costs.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on July 17, 2023, 06:30:08 AM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on July 17, 2023, 06:11:35 AM

If you have a daughter(s) don't forget to include the price of a wedding.  It's hard to cheap-out on DD's wedding when you're in this thread.  Social media seems to have really helped the wedding industry bump up the expectations of what brides (and their moms) dream of.  Thankfully we're really happy with DD's fiancee and his family.  Otherwise, it would be much more difficult to be happy covering the costs. 


I don't know what most of you are willing to pay, but I offered them a budget of $50K.  That seems generous, from my perspective.  What do you guys think?  DD's parents gave us $10K thirty years ago, but their NW wasn't $7M.  They said that they want a small wedding, of about 50-60 guests (including the wedding party), but want to have it in Italy.  The venue cost $15K for the week, so I figured $50K should cover the food, flowers, photography, etc., plus airfare (for the 3 of us). 


I may offer a bit more later if their plans seem reasonable & the budget begins to look a bit tight.  But DD & BF make $200K+/- combined & his folks' NW seems to be in excess of ours, so I'm thinking someone else can pull out a checkbook if they feel the need.  Am I sounding like a cheapskate? 


DD is an only child, so there's no president to be concerned about.  We can obviously afford more, but I don't enjoy wasteful consumption and I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. 


What are your views about weddings?  Do you think my numbers and my reasoning seem reasonable?  (DD seemed pleased with the budget, and said that they'd be happy to cover any additional costs.)

I think that is 100% completely idiotic. Allowing something as insignificant as social media to influence something is beyond baffling to me, as is thinking that a parents' net worth should influence something. I don't understand why parents pay anything for weddings, especially having those funds as planned / expected. Mine sure didn't, and it never even occurred to me to ask the question. I have no idea if they paid anything for my sibling's wedding, also never occurred to me to ask.

If a couple can't afford the wedding they want, then they should have the wedding they need instead, which is done at the courthouse I believe. Or wait until they save money and can afford it. Or, and this is just crazy talk, have a wedding appropriately scoped for their finances. If a parent wants to provide a cash gift after the fact, great, that's nice. But the couple should be able to handle it on their own, just like the rest of life is supposed to be.

ETA: I know this, like most things, should not be fully black and white, but I you asked for opinions....so I gave my strong one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Another Reader on July 17, 2023, 06:47:11 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 14, 2023, 01:53:17 AM

So I think I'll contact an Ed Jones representative tomorrow.   He's handling many accounts for my former coworkers.  Doubt I'm giving him my accounts to manage.  I just need to nudge him to tell wife we are ready for retirement.

Don't do this.  Read up on this company.  Likely he will tell you that you can't retire, because he's trained to increase the assets he manages.  If you hire him, he will likely recommend products that benefit him and EJ, including annuities.  The fees are atrocious.  If your wife is skeptical, retain a fee-only financial planner (they do not manage your assets) to review your plan. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on July 17, 2023, 07:26:33 AM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on July 17, 2023, 06:11:35 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 17, 2023, 03:10:01 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on July 16, 2023, 06:34:16 PM

The only problem is that bc I was wrong I continue to think I was wrong and I really am not sure how much we need....even though I think we are good.

That's the main question that we all have to deal with :-)

 I retired right before my younger one started college but we had set aside her entire college expenses in a separate account which I don't include in my retirement planning (wife insisted on this as she is a lot more risk averse than me). Also, thankfully, my daughter picked a state school. Even with out-of-state tuition, it still a lot less expensive than most private schools.

If you have a daughter(s) don't forget to include the price of a wedding.  It's hard to cheap-out on DD's wedding when you're in this thread.  Social media seems to have really helped the wedding industry bump up the expectations of what brides (and their moms) dream of.  Thankfully we're really happy with DD's fiancee and his family.  Otherwise, it would be much more difficult to be happy covering the costs. 


I don't know what most of you are willing to pay, but I offered them a budget of $50K.  That seems generous, from my perspective.  What do you guys think?  DD's parents gave us $10K thirty years ago, but their NW wasn't $7M.  They said that they want a small wedding, of about 50-60 guests (including the wedding party), but want to have it in Italy.  The venue cost $15K for the week, so I figured $50K should cover the food, flowers, photography, etc., plus airfare (for the 3 of us). 


I may offer a bit more later if their plans seem reasonable & the budget begins to look a bit tight.  But DD & BF make $200K+/- combined & his folks' NW seems to be in excess of ours, so I'm thinking someone else can pull out a checkbook if they feel the need.  Am I sounding like a cheapskate? 


DD is an only child, so there's no president to be concerned about.  We can obviously afford more, but I don't enjoy wasteful consumption and I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. 


What are your views about weddings?  Do you think my numbers and my reasoning seem reasonable?  (DD seemed pleased with the budget, and said that they'd be happy to cover any additional costs.)

Generally, I see this trend changing. Both the "who should pay for a wedding", where the couple is now paying for most of the cost, as well as making the wedding more reasonable. We got married (just the two of us) on the beach in Hawaii for $5k, which included every aspect of the wedding + the honeymoon after, so I'm not a big fan of a big wedding. We've attended some fancy weddings (cost upward of $100k), but they are just not my thing.

I have two teen boys, and we will certainly give them a chunk of money for their weddings when the time comes, but if they choose to use it on the honeymoon or a house or whatever, great.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 17, 2023, 07:32:46 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 16, 2023, 03:19:08 PM

@ATtiny85 Well its certainly a real thing, especially if you have a chronic condition and you would need to buy a higher level of care than what I described above, but is not impossible to budget for.

Take my example of the Bronze plan above for $2:92 month. Lets assume one member of a couple has a chronic condition. In that case if you bought a Bronze plan you would be forking out $7000/year.

So if you got $7k built into your budget than its all good right? Of course you would probably buy a higher level of HC to have lower max OOP at the expense of a higher monthly cost.

But you're right I think its more a fear of the unknown. When you look at the actual numbers its a lot less scary, especially as there is now much more patient protection against surprise medical bills than there was even just last year!

I can attest to this being a fear of the unknown for me!   I've seen (and very much appreciate) your assessment of this before @Exflyboy , but its one of those that I'm just reluctant to get too aggressive about in my planning.  This is one of the benefits of just getting in there, doing it, and learning as you go, because I'm 80% sure it will be better than I think it will, based on my own research as well as your posts.   And yet my plan assumes I'm going to pay those premiums for 10 years!   Guess I'm planning for the worst and hoping for the best.

One of my key learnings from you is to tilt your withdrawals in favor of the after-tax brokerage accounts to keep the income low.  I need to create a model that makes this plain and simple for me -- perhaps then I could get more comfortable with it.  Would certainly help with the planning if I could free up $5000+ per year!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Louise on July 17, 2023, 07:36:26 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 16, 2023, 06:28:30 AM

The other difficulty I’ve found in FIRE with kids is that I’m never quite sure what our expenses will be. Tuition is a lot but it’s mostly known. The sports bills really add up and tend to fluctuate. We will have a new driver soon and I have no idea what insurance and vehicle costs will be for him. I’m not sure what college will really be either. And while all these things can be really expensive they will start to significantly taper off in 8 years.
All that to say, I’m glad to be FI. I’m sure you are too. But I can understand with kids the allure of continuing to work and earn more at least until they are (mostly) flown.

I'm having so much trouble trying to estimate expenses for the next few years, especially when controlling for ACA/FAFSA. My DH currently works, but will be leaving soon. I don't know how much cash I should build up, if we can do Roth conversions, what college will really cost (are the EFC calcs reliable??), if our home will need big repairs, etc. I realize we have resources, there are a lot of possible gotchas. Maybe I worry too much...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 17, 2023, 07:42:34 AM

@Dancin'Dog , I hear you on the wedding budget -- the world has changed and I agree that social media is a big driver of it and this is one area that seems to be booming as a result of it.  It may sound idiotic, but when its your kids its a different thing!   That said, my view is that given the cost escalation, the cost needs to be spread out differently vs 20 years ago.   I think now that much more of the cost should be absorbed by the bride and groom.   So in my mind, your budget is more than generous.  I think if I were in your shoes, I would think about 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 among the parents (of each party) and the married couple.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Louise on July 17, 2023, 07:43:29 AM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on July 17, 2023, 06:11:35 AM

What are your views about weddings?  Do you think my numbers and my reasoning seem reasonable?  (DD seemed pleased with the budget, and said that they'd be happy to cover any additional costs.)

We will offer money for a wedding, but not a crazy one. Some of the things that people think are so important (expensive dresses, bridal/groom parties, centerpieces, etc., etc.) aren't at all in my view.

I went to two inexpensive weddings that were great. One was BBQ/beer in a public park (they rented the park) and the other was in a church basement with finger food, punch and cake. Both marriages are still going strong.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 17, 2023, 08:10:15 AM

With regards to spending on children (weddings, tuition, cars etc) I have a hard time saying no. I don’t think that I’m spoiling my children. I don’t buy them things. But I do pay for private school (elementary and HS) I will allow them to pick a college other than where DH works (and would have 80% off tuition room and board) if we feel that school has a better program. I will help with wedding expenses within reason. I think when you’re a multimillionaire (strange as that seems to me) it’s crazy to deny those opportunities and experiences to your child, only for them to inherit it later. How would they feel if I told them “I’m sorry son you can’t do x, y or z because it’s too expensive” and then I drop dead and they inherit $4M. Especially if it’s something my parents paid for for me (private school, a wedding- it was $8k with a band and sit down dinner for 90ppl)

I mean truth be told my kids are going to be confused anyway. The other day my 14yo told me we weren’t rich because we drive Honda’s and don’t own a vacation home. 😂

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 17, 2023, 09:25:53 AM

I felt like this was a worthy topic to discuss here and I appreciate the views and opinions shared.  @arcturus ,I like the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 idea.  I understand the view of letting the couple pay for whatever they can afford, but I feel weddings tend to be sort of like funerals in the sense the parents & their friends are just as excited to celebrate the union and share their pride in their children, and hopefully, in the family they've chosen to join.  From that perspective, I am happy to contribute an amount that I am comfortable with, and wouldn't want to burden the newlyweds with paying for their parents & parents' friends' portion of the gala.  DW seems every bit as excited as DD is about all the planning, and I'm happy to see how happy she is.  We've had some stressful years, between helping with elderly parents, Blacksheep sibling's issues, and Covid-19.  I am thrilled to see happy faces & making happy memories for a change. 


I only mentioned NW because that's how this thread is titled, and that's how I assume most determine their budgets. 


The social media reference was meant to convey not only how we've upped the ante for weddings, but also how it has shaped how we do everything now.  Before social media, it would have been impossible for me to ask your opinions. 


@BeanCounter , I agree with spending it on important while you are alive to enjoy seeing the positive effects, as with education, and enjoying making bonding and making memories, as with traveling and celebrating the goals that they've achieved in life, including choosing a partner.  Leaving a pile of money after my death without spending a bit along the way, leaves a lot of sad "if only"s to remember me by.  That was my main emotion when Dad departed.  He seemed to love amassing money more than enjoying special times with us.  His parents had done the same.  It's my turn to change that trend.  I want to be included in the happy memories.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on July 17, 2023, 09:44:25 AM

It's a good question, @BeanCounter . We are certainly trying to build in lots of experiences with our kids, which includes expensive travel (mostly just to see family, but also ski trips, college tours, etc). For us, that feels like a very worth way to spend our money, and we'd rather enjoy the time together now, vs handing them a pile of cash at "the end". That said, there's a lot of uncertainty in the future, and we will likely start giving them more as we get older. Maybe a down payment for a first house, helping out with college costs for grandkids, paying for family vacations (even when they are adults),etc.

For me, I'm not saying i won't help pay for an expensive wedding, because who knows, but it's just not at the top of my list. I'll give them a chunk of money, and they can spend it how they would like. I'm a huge proponent of public education (and we live in an exceptional school district, which was one of the factors of location when we bought a house), so we're also not paying for any private schools, which saves quite a bit. For college, it's going to be a wild ride to find a school that is a great fit (one of my teens has a learning disorder, & has "okay" grades, at best). We'll pay whatever we need to for college, assuming he's focused & the school is a good fit for him. Same for our other teen.

Once you start filling out financial aid forms, your kids quickly understand how much money you have, so there are no "secrets" about our net worth. Our kids also know how much we make, and the value of our house, as that's come up in conversation in the past. We try to be open (while not bragging) & hitting the right balance of talking about how privileged we are, the importance of giving back, and still being responsible, despite a big income.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 17, 2023, 09:54:37 AM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on July 17, 2023, 06:11:35 AM

What are your views about weddings?  Do you think my numbers and my reasoning seem reasonable?  (DD seemed pleased with the budget, and said that they'd be happy to cover any additional costs.)

Your budget sounds very fair! We recently attended a lavish high school graduation party that probably cost the hosts at least $20k so $50k for a wedding sounds quite reasonable in comparison :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 17, 2023, 10:17:45 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 17, 2023, 08:10:15 AM

I mean truth be told my kids are going to be confused anyway. The other day my 14yo told me we weren’t rich because we drive Honda’s and don’t own a vacation home. 😂

I love it! I think you have definitely mastered the art of "stealth wealth" if you can keep it from your kids..

As for me I had to decide which of my Walmart Tees shirts to wear to my Drs appointment this morning.. Most of them have little burn holes from stray welding parks..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 17, 2023, 11:09:39 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 17, 2023, 10:17:45 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 17, 2023, 08:10:15 AM

I mean truth be told my kids are going to be confused anyway. The other day my 14yo told me we weren’t rich because we drive Honda’s and don’t own a vacation home. 😂

I love it! I think you have definitely mastered the art of "stealth wealth" if you can keep it from your kids..

As for me I had to decide which of my Walmart Tees shirts to wear to my Drs appointment this morning.. Most of them have little burn holes from stray welding parks..:)

I don’t know that we’ve mastered stealth wealth or if it isn’t that his baseline is screwed up.
Car conversations are really funny with a 14 year old boy
“Mom, wouldn’t it be cool if you could afford a Tesla/bmw/Mercedes?”
Me- “but I don’t want a Tesla/BMW/Mercedes.
“But if you could have one….”
Me- “I like my 12 year old CRV”
“MOM!!” 🙄🙄

I’m very careful to never ever say we can’t afford something. I just say things like-
That doesn’t align with my values.
That wouldn’t be a wise purchase for us.
I don’t WANT to spend that much money on X,y or z.

Iv also been careful to tell them if there are cool school trips you want to go on please talk to us about it and Dad and I will figure out the money if it’s important to you. Because I’m afraid he will assume we can’t afford the German language trip and not ask.
Same with sneakers or athletic equipment, I just ask them to talk to me about it if it’s something that’s really important to you. Because we can give you everything you need but not everything you want.
So far both boys have always made practical choices when it comes to material things. Took the youngest for new shoes last weekend. He went to the store wanting Nike Air Maxx like other boys in his class. When we got there and he saw they were $129 but there were other Nike shoes he liked for $63, he picked the sale shoes. Without me even interjecting.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 17, 2023, 12:49:49 PM

@BeanCounter I often wonder how wealth transfer and attitudes change as it passes down through generations.

I mean I grew up not quite dirt poor but the East End of London after WW2 was not exactly a thriving place. Then at 13 my Dad sat me down and pointed out the ONE CHANCE I had to make it to a better life was to use the free gift of my education.. Somehow at 13 I listened and the very next day started working my ass off! I didn't stop till I gradated HS 2nd in the school by a couple of points and earned a place at one of the top technical universities in the UK.

My Mum and Dad had almost nothing and what they did have they spent in a heartbeat. I knew I couldn't live like that and fast forward almost 50 years and here we are with a NW of $4M.

Now if I had a kid I would imagine that he/she would somehow have a very different attitude because they wouldn't know any different.. Like Dad would magically just have a fast airplane and a giant SUV blah blah. I.e they wouldn't have a clue what it took to get to their charmed existence.

I suspect trying to instill the values of thrift, hard work and saving might be a bit lost on those who wondered if we would get dinner after a hard day of being the very best in every class they could be.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 17, 2023, 12:55:52 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 16, 2023, 10:59:26 PM

@ca-rn Yes ROTH conversions.. I am tentatively planning to wait on those till I am on Medicare (age 65) where medical cost are relatively fixed independent of income.. I'm hoping that the RMD age moves to 75 by the time I get there.

The RMD is already 75 for you now, assuming the age in your profile is accurate.  It was changed in the Secure 2.0 Act.

I'm doing Roth conversions now, even on ACA.  The ACA subsidy makes Roth conversions past a certain modest range nonsensical, but my spreadsheets seem to indicate that it's worthwhile chipping away at it each year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 17, 2023, 01:37:36 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 17, 2023, 11:09:39 AM

So far both boys have always made practical choices when it comes to material things. Took the youngest for new shoes last weekend. He went to the store wanting Nike Air Maxx like other boys in his class. When we got there and he saw they were $129 but there were other Nike shoes he liked for $63, he picked the sale shoes. Without me even interjecting.

We were generally pretty frugal when our daughters were small so they just assumed that we were not particularly well off. We live in a pretty wealthy corner of NJ - the girls would hear about kids at school who went for vacations in private jets while we went for modest vacations in coach. When it came time to apply to colleges, that was the first time they had an inkling that we had enough stashed away as I was able to tell them that they could apply to any college they wanted and we would pay for it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 17, 2023, 02:21:01 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 17, 2023, 12:49:49 PM

@BeanCounter I often wonder how wealth transfer and attitudes change as it passes down through generations.

I mean I grew up not quite dirt poor but the East End of London after WW2 was not exactly a thriving place. Then at 13 my Dad sat me down and pointed out the ONE CHANCE I had to make it to a better life was to use the free gift of my education.. Somehow at 13 I listened and the very next day started working my ass off! I didn't stop till I gradated HS 2nd in the school by a couple of points and earned a place at one of the top technical universities in the UK.

My Mum and Dad had almost nothing and what they did have they spent in a heartbeat. I knew I couldn't live like that and fast forward almost 50 years and here we are with a NW of $4M.

Now if I had a kid I would imagine that he/she would somehow have a very different attitude because they wouldn't know any different.. Like Dad would magically just have a fast airplane and a giant SUV blah blah. I.e they wouldn't have a clue what it took to get to their charmed existence.

I suspect trying to instill the values of thrift, hard work and saving might be a bit lost on those who wondered if we would get dinner after a hard day of being the very best in every class they could be.

That East End of London was soooo bad they even made a TV show out of it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on July 17, 2023, 03:14:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 17, 2023, 12:49:49 PM

@BeanCounter I often wonder how wealth transfer and attitudes change as it passes down through generations.

I mean I grew up not quite dirt poor but the East End of London after WW2 was not exactly a thriving place. Then at 13 my Dad sat me down and pointed out the ONE CHANCE I had to make it to a better life was to use the free gift of my education.. Somehow at 13 I listened and the very next day started working my ass off! I didn't stop till I gradated HS 2nd in the school by a couple of points and earned a place at one of the top technical universities in the UK.

My Mum and Dad had almost nothing and what they did have they spent in a heartbeat. I knew I couldn't live like that and fast forward almost 50 years and here we are with a NW of $4M.

Now if I had a kid I would imagine that he/she would somehow have a very different attitude because they wouldn't know any different.. Like Dad would magically just have a fast airplane and a giant SUV blah blah. I.e they wouldn't have a clue what it took to get to their charmed existence.

I suspect trying to instill the values of thrift, hard work and saving might be a bit lost on those who wondered if we would get dinner after a hard day of being the very best in every class they could be.

I’m not sure of the answer or why but from my experience those with generational wealth are often more frugal than those who started out poor. I’m generalizing of course.
I think kids just pick up the values of the house to some degree.
I know in our house we do absolutely ZERO recreational shopping. We only go to a store if we need something. And we often buy used. So the thought of going into a store and buying something new, that you don’t need, for no other reason other than you just want it really hasn’t occurred to my boys yet.
I think they don’t want for much because they don’t see their parents wanting much.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on July 17, 2023, 11:26:18 PM

I’m here for the wedding comment having just been treated like a Princess at our former wedding venue. I LOVE that my parents used ingenuity to score a fabulous wedding venue I can return to over and over. I LOVE that I got my bridesmaid’s dresses for $10 each as well as the shoes from Payless shoe source for $9 clearance. I LOVE that the hydrangeas we used for wedding bouquets still produce flowers today. I LOVE that I can still recreate my wedding favor truffles when I want to.

My wedding was $25/person including the wine because my parents swung a janitorial and window deal with a winery that didn’t do weddings. I am glad we can celebrate birthdays and anniversaries now. The winery doesn’t do weddings any longer and has changed names. I think because we have that “history” with them that is so unusual they just treat us so well and remember us. Give them the wedding/event you want to.

If it’s an only child, do what you feel right about. We had 100 people at $25/person paid for by my parents. The rest was on us. We were creative and careful with our spending. We added 25 more people on our own dime-because that was important to us. Our anniversary party cost more than our wedding years later. Another thing I don’t regret. It sounds like the Italy wedding is part wedding and part vacation. $16K for a vacation of a lifetime and $30K for a wedding doesn’t sound as far fetched. Can you do it for $5K? Maybe locally. If you gave them the choice between a wedding and $50K, would they choose the wedding?

Only you can know what you want to do. At the Beyond level, $50K is belt tightening for a couple months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on July 18, 2023, 07:34:51 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 17, 2023, 03:14:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 17, 2023, 12:49:49 PM

@BeanCounter I often wonder how wealth transfer and attitudes change as it passes down through generations.

I mean I grew up not quite dirt poor but the East End of London after WW2 was not exactly a thriving place. Then at 13 my Dad sat me down and pointed out the ONE CHANCE I had to make it to a better life was to use the free gift of my education.. Somehow at 13 I listened and the very next day started working my ass off! I didn't stop till I gradated HS 2nd in the school by a couple of points and earned a place at one of the top technical universities in the UK.

My Mum and Dad had almost nothing and what they did have they spent in a heartbeat. I knew I couldn't live like that and fast forward almost 50 years and here we are with a NW of $4M.

Now if I had a kid I would imagine that he/she would somehow have a very different attitude because they wouldn't know any different.. Like Dad would magically just have a fast airplane and a giant SUV blah blah. I.e they wouldn't have a clue what it took to get to their charmed existence.

I suspect trying to instill the values of thrift, hard work and saving might be a bit lost on those who wondered if we would get dinner after a hard day of being the very best in every class they could be.

I’m not sure of the answer or why but from my experience those with generational wealth are often more frugal than those who started out poor. I’m generalizing of course.
I think kids just pick up the values of the house to some degree.
I know in our house we do absolutely ZERO recreational shopping. We only go to a store if we need something. And we often buy used. So the thought of going into a store and buying something new, that you don’t need, for no other reason other than you just want it really hasn’t occurred to my boys yet.
I think they don’t want for much because they don’t see their parents wanting much.

The first generation makes, the 2nd generation grew up tight and also makes it bigger/better, and the third generation f#*ks it all up bc they grew up spoiled and are detached from the effort/sacrifice/investment it took.    Not to mention by the third generation there are usually multiple heirs so the pot is divided into smaller pieces.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on July 18, 2023, 10:19:55 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 17, 2023, 03:14:56 PM

I’m not sure of the answer or why but from my experience those with generational wealth are often more frugal than those who started out poor. I’m generalizing of course.
I think kids just pick up the values of the house to some degree.
I know in our house we do absolutely ZERO recreational shopping. We only go to a store if we need something. And we often buy used. So the thought of going into a store and buying something new, that you don’t need, for no other reason other than you just want it really hasn’t occurred to my boys yet.
I think they don’t want for much because they don’t see their parents wanting much.

I don't know why I found this so funny. Recreational shopping... haha. Really? That people do this is incredible, but I know it happens a lot.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 18, 2023, 11:10:11 AM

Quote from: dividendman on July 18, 2023, 10:19:55 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 17, 2023, 03:14:56 PM

I’m not sure of the answer or why but from my experience those with generational wealth are often more frugal than those who started out poor. I’m generalizing of course.
I think kids just pick up the values of the house to some degree.
I know in our house we do absolutely ZERO recreational shopping. We only go to a store if we need something. And we often buy used. So the thought of going into a store and buying something new, that you don’t need, for no other reason other than you just want it really hasn’t occurred to my boys yet.
I think they don’t want for much because they don’t see their parents wanting much.

I don't know why I found this so funny. Recreational shopping... haha. Really? That people do this is incredible, but I know it happens a lot.

I know I did this the other day. I bought an upgraded underground pipe/power cable tracker while surfing Amazon. Don't need one but will probably come in handy one day but honestly I bought it cus it was cool..:)

$114 delivered.. Oh the shame!...;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on July 18, 2023, 12:28:20 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 18, 2023, 11:10:11 AM

Quote from: dividendman on July 18, 2023, 10:19:55 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 17, 2023, 03:14:56 PM

I’m not sure of the answer or why but from my experience those with generational wealth are often more frugal than those who started out poor. I’m generalizing of course.
I think kids just pick up the values of the house to some degree.
I know in our house we do absolutely ZERO recreational shopping. We only go to a store if we need something. And we often buy used. So the thought of going into a store and buying something new, that you don’t need, for no other reason other than you just want it really hasn’t occurred to my boys yet.
I think they don’t want for much because they don’t see their parents wanting much.

I don't know why I found this so funny. Recreational shopping... haha. Really? That people do this is incredible, but I know it happens a lot.

I know I did this the other day. I bought an upgraded underground pipe/power cable tracker while surfing Amazon. Don't need one but will probably come in handy one day but honestly I bought it cus it was cool..:)

$114 delivered.. Oh the shame!...;)

Dang... you actually "surf amazon"? i.e. you go to amazon.com even when you're not looking for something specific? Wowzers. I guess I just hate shopping so much I only go to amazon or a shop with a specific purchase in mind.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on July 18, 2023, 05:08:47 PM

If I or DW were recreational shoppers, I think I'd insist she call me Thurston Howell the 3rd and I'd call her Lovey.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 19, 2023, 01:22:10 AM

I bought a few things this past week.  A trailer hitch for my wife's new car, online purchase hopefully it fits.  A new lighter backpack for me, I'm still trying to get back out hiking the AT.  Two new pairs of hiking poles, cheap ones on Amazon that are actually awesome. Pistol ammo, it was available and cheaper than it's been.
I just paid my lowest credit card bill in years.  It was a period during my 6 weeks hiking the AT.  It seems backpacking is much cheaper than boredom. You have no car and pay the penalty for carrying too much crap with pain to your shoulders. Backpacking is the ultimate Mustachian exercise.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 19, 2023, 12:02:11 PM

@Bateaux to a degree. I was surprised at how expensive the dried food was these days plus permits run at about $100 for 6ay trips from memory.

In 3 months though I get "golden age"pass which is a huge discount..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 19, 2023, 12:51:15 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 19, 2023, 12:02:11 PM

@Bateaux to a degree. I was surprised at how expensive the dried food was these days plus permits run at about $100 for 6ay trips from memory.

In 3 months though I get "golden age"pass which is a huge discount..:)

As a US veteran I was able to acquire a lifetime National Parks pass for $10. Sleeping on ground is pretty cheap.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: elledub on July 19, 2023, 12:51:25 PM

@exflyboy I dehydrate my own backpacking meals. It works out to about $2/ meal. Plus plenty of great areas to hike with zero permit fees. My biggest cost is shoes for backpacking. Once I wear them out they graduate to river shoes then gardening shoes

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 19, 2023, 01:17:33 PM

Quote from: plugging away on July 19, 2023, 12:51:25 PM

@Exflyboy I dehydrate my own backpacking meals. It works out to about $2/ meal. Plus plenty of great areas to hike with zero permit fees. My biggest cost is shoes for backpacking. Once I wear them out they graduate to river shoes then gardening shoes

Yes we are thinking about dehydrating our own.. just have not gotten around to buying the equipment.. Which has to be amortised over the number of meals during its life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on July 26, 2023, 10:49:26 AM

MPP:  OMY syndrome returns.

Passing through $3M in investments, nearing $3.8M overall NW. Soon, we’ll be moving into “Beyond” territory. I’m enjoying the new work, but also reassessing why I do it. The money is nice, and it just seems to keep flowing in. Plus the market is going up (for the moment), so the balance sheet keeps looking better and better. But why work? I’m shifting my thoughts to those of leadership, commitment to others, value creation for those around me (where value can be a many different things besides or in addition to money). I wish I had someone to talk with who has some answers and broader philosophical thoughts and challenges for me. I really feel like instead of providing answers, all of this just creates new and different questions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 26, 2023, 11:11:45 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on July 26, 2023, 10:49:26 AM

MPP:  OMY syndrome returns.

Passing through $3M in investments, nearing $3.8M overall NW. Soon, we’ll be moving into “Beyond” territory. I’m enjoying the new work, but also reassessing why I do it. The money is nice, and it just seems to keep flowing in. Plus the market is going up (for the moment), so the balance sheet keeps looking better and better. But why work? I’m shifting my thoughts to those of leadership, commitment to others, value creation for those around me (where value can be a many different things besides or in addition to money). I wish I had someone to talk with who has some answers and broader philosophical thoughts and challenges for me. I really feel like instead of providing answers, all of this just creates new and different questions.

So many options.  It's a bit overwhelming.  Who's advice would you value more than what's in your head & heart?  It seems easier to dream about your paths before you have the means, than it is to choose a path after you have the means.  All the while, time is ticking. 


The trick seems to find the right balance between your obligations and your freedom. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 26, 2023, 01:32:11 PM

I’ve really enjoyed the OMY lifestyle once I realized it was all up to me.  Folks here are a bit over zealous about the evils of OMY and how precious time is, but time, money, and work all have value in the right context.  Other than on this forum, it’s hard to feel like a failure for having a good job and extra money (fatFI) and retirement before 50 isn’t some magical guarantee to happiness, you still need to figure the rest of life out…. As long as work isn’t impacting health or relationships, it’s not the worst thing to do while coming to a conclusion on what’s next.  And I know plenty of folks that had a rough time in retirement when the second spouse retired.

Ultimately it’s really hard to give good advice to others on this without knowing them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 26, 2023, 01:39:57 PM

@Taran Wanderer Captain Obvious here. Ultimately the question comes down to what provides the most fulfillment in the remaining life you have left.

In terms of useful advice I have very little as financially i'm in about the same place, except in addition we have a couple of small pensions, which age 70 (8 years) would pay roughly double today's current spend. Is $3M enough to "make it" another 8 years?

Bottom line the money is becoming less and less meaningful and more money is simply throwing more turnips on a truck already full of turnips! How many turnips can one eat in a lifetime?

Now DW and I did retire, and its nice.. Life of low stress, a few projects to keep me ticking over, DW started and runs a foodbank..

Now there is the prospect of some part time professional work coming up and honestly I'm quite excited about it.... Clearly its got nothing to do with money.. Although, more is always better right?..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 26, 2023, 03:13:12 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 26, 2023, 01:39:57 PM

@Taran Wanderer Captain Obvious here. Ultimately the question comes down to what provides the most fulfillment in the remaining life you have left.

In terms of useful advice I have very little as financially i'm in about the same place, except in addition we have a couple of small pensions, which age 70 (8 years) would pay roughly double today's current spend. Is $3M enough to "make it" another 8 years?

Bottom line the money is becoming less and less meaningful and more money is simply throwing more turnips on a truck already full of turnips! How many turnips can one eat in a lifetime?

Now DW and I did retire, and its nice.. Life of low stress, a few projects to keep me ticking over, DW started and runs a foodbank..

Now there is the prospect of some part time professional work coming up and honestly I'm quite excited about it.... Clearly its got nothing to do with money.. Although, more is always better right?..:)

Clearly you didn't fall off the turnip truck last week.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: thefisherwoman on July 26, 2023, 03:18:48 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 26, 2023, 01:39:57 PM

@Taran Wanderer Captain Obvious here. Ultimately the question comes down to what provides the most fulfillment in the remaining life you have left.

In terms of useful advice I have very little as financially i'm in about the same place, except in addition we have a couple of small pensions, which age 70 (8 years) would pay roughly double today's current spend. Is $3M enough to "make it" another 8 years?

Bottom line the money is becoming less and less meaningful and more money is simply throwing more turnips on a truck already full of turnips! How many turnips can one eat in a lifetime?

Now DW and I did retire, and its nice.. Life of low stress, a few projects to keep me ticking over, DW started and runs a foodbank..

Now there is the prospect of some part time professional work coming up and honestly I'm quite excited about it.... Clearly its got nothing to do with money.. Although, more is always better right?..:)

Would you mind sharing more about the food bank? Sounds like a wonderful endeavor!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 26, 2023, 04:16:25 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on July 26, 2023, 10:49:26 AM

MPP:  OMY syndrome returns.

Passing through $3M in investments, nearing $3.8M overall NW. Soon, we’ll be moving into “Beyond” territory. I’m enjoying the new work, but also reassessing why I do it. The money is nice, and it just seems to keep flowing in. Plus the market is going up (for the moment), so the balance sheet keeps looking better and better. But why work? I’m shifting my thoughts to those of leadership, commitment to others, value creation for those around me (where value can be a many different things besides or in addition to money). I wish I had someone to talk with who has some answers and broader philosophical thoughts and challenges for me. I really feel like instead of providing answers, all of this just creates new and different questions.

Morgan Housel (https://www.morganhousel.com) has a lot of wise stuff to say about money and work. I introduced my wife to his material and she says it has really helped - she is in much the same position as you. She is paid well and mostly enjoys her work but sometimes still wonders if she should be doing something else.

Do check out his podcast and his blog (https://collabfund.com/blog/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on July 26, 2023, 06:52:19 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 26, 2023, 01:32:11 PM

I’ve really enjoyed the OMY lifestyle once I realized it was all up to me.  Folks here are a bit over zealous about the evils of OMY and how precious time is, but time, money, and work all have value in the right context.  Other than on this forum, it’s hard to feel like a failure for having a good job and extra money (fatFI) and retirement before 50 isn’t some magical guarantee to happiness, you still need to figure the rest of life out…. As long as work isn’t impacting health or relationships, it’s not the worst thing to do while coming to a conclusion on what’s next.  And I know plenty of folks that had a rough time in retirement when the second spouse retired.

Ultimately it’s really hard to give good advice to others on this without knowing them.

I've been giving this some thought over the past few months as I observe people who continue to work (in many cases, high stress jobs, long hours, etc.) despite clearly being financially secure and able to retire (in fact one who came out of retirement for non-financial reasons and is now in a high power position).    My only conclusion is that it just depends on the person and how they view their jobs / careers and how they are able to achieve a mental balance.   I am the type who has difficulty turning my "work brain" off and therefore, I believe that I will get a lot more out of life after I am able to finally unplug without the looming thought of emails backing up, deadlines drawing closer, people jockeying for position, office politics, etc.   That stuff bothers me a lot (in fact, seems to be getting worse with each passing year) and yet there are others that don't seem to tire of it in the same way that I have.   So I think at a certain point it comes down to -- what is going to create the most happiness for you and those closest to you?  I am more enjoyable for DW to be around when when I am able to turn the "work brain" off (which happens occasionally on vacations, but usually only after a few days of being away).    I hope that is what guides my decision when the time comes!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 26, 2023, 08:19:47 PM

I've been waiting for one last ass burn to make the final move out.  That happened today.  They are closing the laboratory that I work in alone and moving my position to the main laboratory.  The move will be completed by September 1st. The move won't include me.  I'm done.  I have some vacation left to take and plan to be gone before the move takes place.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 26, 2023, 11:05:35 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 26, 2023, 08:19:47 PM

I've been waiting for one last ass burn to make the final move out.  That happened today.  They are closing the laboratory that I work in alone and moving my position to the main laboratory.  The move will be completed by September 1st. The move won't include me.  I'm done.  I have some vacation left to take and plan to be gone before the move takes place.

Woo-hoo! Congratulations. It's been a mighty long time coming.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 27, 2023, 05:38:45 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 26, 2023, 06:52:19 PM

I've been giving this some thought over the past few months as I observe people who continue to work (in many cases, high stress jobs, long hours, etc.) despite clearly being financially secure and able to retire (in fact one who came out of retirement for non-financial reasons and is now in a high power position).    My only conclusion is that it just depends on the person and how they view their jobs / careers and how they are able to achieve a mental balance.   I am the type who has difficulty turning my "work brain" off and therefore, I believe that I will get a lot more out of life after I am able to finally unplug without the looming thought of emails backing up, deadlines drawing closer, people jockeying for position, office politics, etc.   That stuff bothers me a lot (in fact, seems to be getting worse with each passing year) and yet there are others that don't seem to tire of it in the same way that I have.   So I think at a certain point it comes down to -- what is going to create the most happiness for you and those closest to you?  I am more enjoyable for DW to be around when when I am able to turn the "work brain" off (which happens occasionally on vacations, but usually only after a few days of being away).    I hope that is what guides my decision when the time comes!

This was one of the main reasons I retired - thoughts about work lived in my head at all times and I could not get rid of them. I am all-or-nothing when it comes to work and am much happier to be on the "nothing" side now :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 27, 2023, 06:53:40 AM

Quote from: arcturus on July 26, 2023, 06:52:19 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on July 26, 2023, 01:32:11 PM

I’ve really enjoyed the OMY lifestyle once I realized it was all up to me.  Folks here are a bit over zealous about the evils of OMY and how precious time is, but time, money, and work all have value in the right context.  Other than on this forum, it’s hard to feel like a failure for having a good job and extra money (fatFI) and retirement before 50 isn’t some magical guarantee to happiness, you still need to figure the rest of life out…. As long as work isn’t impacting health or relationships, it’s not the worst thing to do while coming to a conclusion on what’s next.  And I know plenty of folks that had a rough time in retirement when the second spouse retired.

Ultimately it’s really hard to give good advice to others on this without knowing them.

I've been giving this some thought over the past few months as I observe people who continue to work (in many cases, high stress jobs, long hours, etc.) despite clearly being financially secure and able to retire (in fact one who came out of retirement for non-financial reasons and is now in a high power position).    My only conclusion is that it just depends on the person and how they view their jobs / careers and how they are able to achieve a mental balance.   I am the type who has difficulty turning my "work brain" off and therefore, I believe that I will get a lot more out of life after I am able to finally unplug without the looming thought of emails backing up, deadlines drawing closer, people jockeying for position, office politics, etc.   That stuff bothers me a lot (in fact, seems to be getting worse with each passing year) and yet there are others that don't seem to tire of it in the same way that I have.   So I think at a certain point it comes down to -- what is going to create the most happiness for you and those closest to you?  I am more enjoyable for DW to be around when when I am able to turn the "work brain" off (which happens occasionally on vacations, but usually only after a few days of being away).    I hope that is what guides my decision when the time comes!

Interesting!  I’m on vacation right now and I hadn’t thought about work until I read your post.  I have an out of office message on my work inbox and I do check my other work in box once a day just to know what is going on.  I work for a Norwegian company (an American subsidiary of one) and they take their summer vacation seriously- no interruptions unless it’s life or death.  Also, everyone is off in July so work is super slow anyway….  I do like the idea of getting back to it in August when things ramp back up, but the month long break is nice.  More American companies should be like this!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 28, 2023, 06:50:49 AM

Inspired by a post by @Nords in a different thread, I found an interesting website with many interviews with people who have made it into this club : https://esimoney.com/category/millionaires/

Entertaining way to spend an idle afternoon :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Nords on July 28, 2023, 09:15:35 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on July 28, 2023, 06:50:49 AM

Inspired by a post by @Nords in a different thread, I found an interesting website with many interviews with people who have made it into this club : https://esimoney.com/category/millionaires/

I’m glad you’re enjoying them, @2sk22!  I’ve read most of them but not all of them. 

These are not exactly Mustachian essays.  It may be difficult to empathize with some of the concerns expressed in the interviews.

The primary factor in the interviewees' net worth has been big earnings, not a deliberately high savings rate (although there are a few) and definitely not by brilliant investing (but some excel at real estate).  Of course when you’re earning over $500K/year the savings rate is pretty high by default, and investing longevity has a quality all its own.

Note that there are Millionaire Interviews, Interview Updates, Retiree Interviews, Retirement Updates, Six Figure Interviews, and a few other topics.  It’s taken quite a few years to collect the 350+ Millionaire Interviews, and the updates (generally after three years) are even more rare.

For those who just want the high points, here’s a couple short summaries of lessons from the first hundred:
https://esimoney.com/lessons-from-millionaires/
https://esimoney.com/millionaire-stories-how-7-everyday-people-became-wealthy-and-what-we-can-learn-from-them/

If you’re trying to figure out what you’re retiring to, not just retiring from, these people can do anything they want-- and they’re doing it.  There’s a lot to unpack.

Now that there are over 400 interviews (of all types) there’s early discussions about researching a more in-depth analysis of all of them and their lessons.  That project is probably a couple years from publishing anything.

This is not a pitch (and I’m certainly not getting affiliate links), but:  of the 900+ people in the Millionaire Money Mentors forum, 139 Millionaire Interview people are members.   About 40 of us are posting in the forums at least weekly. 

I’m learning a tremendous amount about estate planning, philanthropy, and FI lifestyle.  We even had a meetup last April (about 25 of us) and we’re already planning next April’s gathering.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on July 28, 2023, 10:44:24 AM

Well, you piqued my interest, @Nords. I hopped over, expecting there would be some barrier to entry, but the $599 annual fee stopped me cold. Do they ever offer Black Friday deals?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 28, 2023, 10:45:53 AM

Holy crap!  It's 600 bucks a year to play with the ESI club.

That had better be extramarital sex and key swapping for that price!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 28, 2023, 11:09:20 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 28, 2023, 10:45:53 AM

Holy crap!  It's 600 bucks a year to play with the ESI club.

That had better be extramarital sex and key swapping for that price!

We'll start a Go Fund Me for you and you can report back.  I'm in for $20.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on July 28, 2023, 12:21:28 PM

Quote from: Nords on July 28, 2023, 09:15:35 AM

The primary factor in the interviewees' net worth has been big earnings, not a deliberately high savings rate (although there are a few) and definitely not by brilliant investing (but some excel at real estate).  Of course when you’re earning over $500K/year the savings rate is pretty high by default, and investing longevity has a quality all its own.

Indeed, that's why I found the interviews interesting: their stories roughly corresponds to my circumstances. We made good money and saved a lot of it but:
- we have never been quite as frugal and DIY as many Mustachians
- we saved a lot in absolute terms but not as high a fraction of our income as many of the people here.

I didn't discover FIRE and MMM until we had already achieved and exceeded FI. Things may have well played out differently if I had come across FIRE say ten years ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Nords on July 28, 2023, 03:49:21 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 28, 2023, 10:44:24 AM

Well, you piqued my interest, @Nords. I hopped over, expecting there would be some barrier to entry, but the $599 annual fee stopped me cold. Do they ever offer Black Friday deals?

My 1100-word response here is going to resemble a values debate of frugal versus cheap.  That forum is a highly individual decision, and it’s not for everyone.  It might not be for anyone here, but please ask me questions or send me a PM.  I’ll skip over the marketing hype. 

At the end of this essay I’ll mention a way to get a free membership, but it has to be earned.  Very few of this forum’s members will see the value in it.  Others won’t want to share personal numbers or risk the doxxing.

I’m guessing that the Millionaire Money Mentor founders (John Nardini & Steve Adcock) will open the forum to new members when the traffic from the current members dies down.  I’m sure that members drop out, but I don’t know what the churn rate may be.  Over the last three years, memberships have been sold during 4th of July, Labor Day, and the end of the year.  Right now the forum is pretty busy... a lot like the early growth of Early-Retirement .org, or like this forum was during its early years.

John hasn’t said anything yet, but he may have one more membership offer before the end of 2023.  I can’t predict a date.  Possibly January 2024.  The easiest way to track the offer is to subscribe to ESIMoney .com and wait for the announcement there.

Quote from: Bateaux on July 28, 2023, 10:45:53 AM

Holy crap!  It's 600 bucks a year to play with the ESI club.

Back in October 2020, I reacted the same way when the membership was $490/year.  Who in the world pays for a forum?!?  Suckers.

The free products that come with the first year’s membership are cool in the sense of “Here’s a bunch of things that I wouldn’t pay for individually but are interesting to read as a package deal.”  It’s like buying a copy of a book instead of borrowing it from the library, or buying the boxed set of a series at a discount.  I no longer remember what free products I got when I signed up three years ago, and at least 95% of Mustachians can replicate them on their own.

I’m at a stage of my life where $1000 is an experiment, not a commitment.  I joined because my inner Ramit Sethi asked me why I couldn’t give myself permission to try out a potentially valuable product with a seven-day money-back guarantee.  I could certainly afford it out of our entertainment budget, let alone our travel or investing categories.  Well, we’re no longer budgeting, but I digress.

After reading for a few days, I was hooked by the fact that paid forums have no trolls, no haters, no scammers, and no spammers.  This might seem like a big “Well, DUH, Nords”, but I’ve been moderating forums for nearly two decades.  (Even the Mustache forums have their problem members, right?)  I never noticed this benefit until the problems were absent. 

Everyone on the Millionaires forum can do math.  Everyone has real-life experience in building wealth.  Everyone has been fired, or dealt with hostile work environments, or faced adversity.  Everyone has a healthy ego (including me) yet has been challenged on it before (including me) and maintains enough humility (probably me) to admit that they might be mistaken in their opinions.

There are still arguments, yet they’re civil.  There are rants but no ad hominem attacks.  The forum is almost self-moderating.  Once John had to actually step in and chill a poster, later refunding his money and canceling his account.  (The poster was a foul-mouthed, paranoid, conspiracy-theory extremist... who also happened to be a millionaire.)  Other than him, the most vigorous arguments I can recall have ended in consensus that we’ll always have different perspectives.

Those last three paragraphs are the primary reason that I’m on the Millionaire Money Mentors forum nearly every day-- usually for an hour or two.  I get tremendous inspiration from answering the thoughtful questions, for sharing my stories, for writing a better blog post, and for writing the next book.  They’re also the reason that now I only check in with other forums weekly or when I’m tagged. 

My biggest wins from the forum have been learning about:
- the details of real estate syndications,
- the gossipy analysis of the teams who are running various real estate syndications,
- the due diligence of commercial real estate (many buildings, millions of square feet),
- the workload of landlording thousands of doors of residential multifamily real estate,
- having so many rentals that you start your own property-management company,
- the logistics of running a family private bank,
- having two (retired) billionaires as golfing buddies,
- estate planning (at the $10M level),
- gifting (at the $50M level),
- trusts for dealing with estate planning, tax avoidance, owning assets, and other legal issues,
- entrepreneurship (on steroids),
- negotiating a higher salary (or fewer hours) when you’re already earning $250K/year,
- six-figure consulting contracts,
- financial planning when you earn more than $250K/year (I get this question from some military vets),
- donating over $100K/year to charity,
- philanthropy (as in, establishing your own charitable foundation),
- concierge medicine (like detailed annual physicals or joint replacements), and
- lifestyle.  So much on lifestyle.

I’ve made better decisions with information that has saved me tens of thousands of dollars.  We also resolved a family estate-planning question that would have cost us $2500 just to learn what questions to ask the lawyers.  Now we’re educated enough to pay the lawyers to debate the solutions and do the paperwork.

The forum is also a valuable insight into the emotions of behavioral financial psychology.  I’m the guy who explains the tiny important details of the 4% SWR to the rest of the members, and that guy who challenges smart rich people on their Just One More Year syndrome.  Whether you have $600K or $50M:
“... the money has to last me for the rest of my life and I might need it someday!  Besides, I like my boss, and they pay me well for stuff that I enjoy doing anyway, and I’d have to buy my own health insurance, and Social Security might not be there in 2035, and I want to travel, and I want long-term care insurance, and...”
https://militaryfinancialindependence.com/2023/04/11/fear-and-the-just-one-more-year-syndrome/

We Millionaire forum members still have problems with our aging parents who don’t want to let us help manage their assets.  We still have questions about the value of college or finding good liability insurance.  We still worry (a lot) about raising money-savvy kids while building their grit, motivation, & initiative.  We still have perpetual debates about paying off the mortgage (or investing).  We still discuss vocabulary like value, frugal, and cheap.

Quote from: Bateaux on July 28, 2023, 10:45:53 AM

That had better be extramarital sex and key swapping for that price!

At our meetup a few months ago, I had an incredible weekend learning more about forum members (and their spouses) and talking about life. 

During that weekend I had an entire new audience for my sea stories.  Some of us learned not to play poker with a psychologist who earns over $1M/year in textbook royalties.  We heard from another member who engineered their severance package and has been travel-hacking the world.  A general partner of a real-estate syndicator gave a short talk on the economics of storage facilities and then let us interrogate him for over an hour on analysis, fees, and pandemic failures.

I found myself tutoring a friend on backdoor Roth IRAs in the 37% income-tax bracket.  They’re burning out on their career in their early 30s but it’s hard to give up the money and they might not have enough yet.  (Spoiler:  they have more than enough.)

Coincidentally our meetup was held in The Villages (the retirement community in central Florida), and I’ve learned a lot about that place too.  I’m going back there for our meetup in 2024.

The closest comparison to this Millionaire meetup is CampFI or Camp Mustache, but with no Mt. Si hikes-- and in the luxurious accommodations of the Brownwood Hotel & Spa.

Hacking the free membership:  when I joined in 2020 and met all the other people who’d written their Millionaire Interviews, I forced myself to finally write my mine.  (I’d been intrigued by it for several years but never made it a priority.)  Every interview is the same questions every time, and if you’ve read a dozen other interviews then writing yours is mainly an exercise of introspection & persistence.  When mine was published, John refunded my pro-rated portion of my annual membership.  I’m not charged for annual renewals as long as I share in the forum discussions at least weekly.

My first draft of my MI was 4000 words:  Question, Answer, Question, Answer, The End.  When I showed my draft to my spouse (who always reads my first drafts) her feedback was:  “Booooooooring!”  I started all over again and shared stories instead of answering questions... and ended at over 7000 words.  Next, my Retiree Interview will be published in September-- it’s 16,000 words.  In my defense, it covers over 20 years of retiree. 

Contact John if you’re interested in writing your MI.  However he’s mentioned many times that fewer than 10% of the people who’ve volunteered to write a MI for ESIMoney have actually followed through on their personal commitment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: solon on July 28, 2023, 06:18:27 PM

Where is the forum? I have been all over that site but I don't see anything about a forum?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Nords on July 28, 2023, 06:44:12 PM

Quote from: solon on July 28, 2023, 06:18:27 PM

Where is the forum? I have been all over that site but I don't see anything about a forum?

Here's the landing page when the forum re-opens for new members:
https://millionairemoneymentors.com/

And here's the site of the forum itself:
https://forums.millionairemoneymentors.com/

Now that I've cut&pasted those links, I realize it's the same URL format as the MrMoneyMustache site & forum.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 28, 2023, 08:03:39 PM

@Nords I'm sure it's actually awesome.

I'm just too country and dumb to fit in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Nords on July 28, 2023, 08:46:58 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on July 28, 2023, 08:03:39 PM

I'm just too country and dumb to fit in.

I'm not sure that'll keep you from fitting in, but you never know where you'll find your tribe.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Another Reader on July 29, 2023, 08:20:35 AM

Hi Nords:

I have a huge amount of respect for you and what you have done for so many people.  I qualify to join the forum, but in what I have seen so far of the founder, I don't see anything remarkable.  Is it the discussion among the members that makes this worth the investment?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on July 29, 2023, 08:45:59 AM

Nords has been here since dirt.
He's certainly doing this to help others.  He doesn't need the cash.  He was here when I was a sub millionaire.  Now at 3.3M without houses and crap I'm still working another month.  There could be many secrets I'm missing out on

 
Throw Down the Gauntlet / Re: Race to $1,000,000
« on: February 13, 2014, 06:32:33 AM »
I don't think I can go full Mustachian.  I'm going to need at least 2 million working for me before I retire.  I do not feel rich or comfortable having passed the 1 million mark.  I admire those who can make it work on less.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Nords on July 29, 2023, 10:16:52 AM

Quote from: Another Reader on July 29, 2023, 08:20:35 AM

I have a huge amount of respect for you and what you have done for so many people.  I qualify to join the forum, but in what I have seen so far of the founder, I don't see anything remarkable.  Is it the discussion among the members that makes this worth the investment?

I think the discussion is outstanding.  It's not just the financial analysis that leads me to better decisions (and avoids mistakes) but also the lifestyle questions. 

None of these people are buying private jets or yachts-- most of them don't even feel comfortable buying first-class airfare.  I knew that I wasn't going to find the secret codes for trading the stock market, but I was very surprised to see how many people have the same emotional concerns at $10M that everyone has with less than $1M.  The emotions of Just One More Year are far worse than I thought.

If you have questions about the financial aspects of investment real estate, the Millionaire Money Mentors forum is far better than anything I've found in BiggerPockets.  (I'm better at the mechanics of maintenance & repair, but the other members know far more about capitalizing millions of dollars into rehabs or buy&hold.)  They're very good with landlord-tenant law and taxes.

If you're planning an exit from a corporate career, many of these members have been in C-suite jobs or have run large HR teams.  They know all of the challenges and the dirty tricks.  They have superior experience & advice for raising income, changing jobs, changing careers, and downshifting to consulting.

I've had complicated questions about estate planning, revocable living trusts, gifting, and philanthropy.  I've already tried asking those questions on forums like this one, but the level of personal details that I've shared would not work well with the trolls, haters, and scammers on free forums.  I've learned that I'm out there on the tail of the bell curve on all of these questions, but we've all figured out our answers.  I'm comfortable with sharing far more personal detail on the Millionaire forum than I am here.

At our last meetup, John (ESIMoney) mentioned that he's personally saved tens of thousands of dollars from everyone's advice.  (He's making money from the forum, too, but he's paying the bills for servers, bandwidth, Steve Adcock's tech skills, and a Discourse license.)  He's already blogged for two decades (at various sites) and he plans to keep going with ESIMoney and the Millionaire Money Mentor forums for years.  He and Steve ran J Money's Rockstar Finance for years before they sold it (which is another interesting story) and they're replicating that business model with millionaire mentors.

I've made at least as many friends there as I have at Camp Mustache and CampFIs. 

Worst case:  you subscribe to ESIMoney to be notified of the next Millionaire membership offer, you pay $600, you browse the forums for a week, and you ask for your money back.  John doesn't jerk people around.

Quote from: Bateaux on July 29, 2023, 08:45:59 AM

Nords has been here since dirt.
He's certainly doing this to help others.  He doesn't need the cash. 

I wish these resources had been around when I was starting out in life, and I'm paying it forward!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on July 29, 2023, 11:14:41 AM

@Nords how are members' credentials evaluated when joining the forum?  Are the members anonymous?  What number is the membership level capped at, and what is the purpose of a cap? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Nords on July 29, 2023, 03:14:21 PM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on July 29, 2023, 11:14:41 AM

@Nords how are members' credentials evaluated when joining the forum? 

Anyone who’s willing to pay the annual fee can join the forum.  There’s no verification of assets like one might have with startups or syndications seeking accredited investors.  I guess John or Steve will see your name on your payment method.

Members whose Millionaire Interview has been published on the ESIMoney blog have the word “Mentor” added to their profile, and there’s also an additional section of the forum that’s intended to be for Mentors only posting with other Mentors.  However the Mentor section of the forum only gets a few posts per month while the rest of the forum’s sections are much busier.  Most of the Mentors are posting in the same sections as everyone else.

I don’t know if John tries to verify assets for the Millionaire Interviews.  I doubt he does.  (He didn’t for me, but he already knew I’m an accredited investor.)  He probably just takes our word for our numbers.

The forum has a perpetual thread “Net Worth in 2023” where we post our... net worths.  Those who choose to post in it usually share their numbers but some just mention percentages.

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on July 29, 2023, 11:14:41 AM

Are the members anonymous? 

Your choice.  Most of the members stay anonymous.  Some are anonymous and mention the number of their Millionaire Interview in their profile, where you can learn more details about their assets and location/lifestyle.  A few (like me) share our actual names because we’re already public figures.

I suppose you could pay your membership fee with a gift card or an anonymous corporate account, but you’d have to ask John about that.

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on July 29, 2023, 11:14:41 AM

What number is the membership level capped at, and what is the purpose of a cap?

I don’t know the answers to either of those questions.  I’m not aware of a formal cap, and John might just be figuring out his parameters as he goes along. 

There are currently 918 users of whom 140 are Mentors.  That’s barely 2% of the size of the Mustache forums, and there’s probably a similar percentage of active users.  I think I see the same 20-30 poster names every week. 

I know that during the week or two that John & Steve open the forum for new members, they get hundreds of questions like these.  There’s also the inevitable overhead of processing new members' payments, making sure the bonus products get delivered, and helping new members settle into the forum software. 

I don’t have a feel for how much busier the forum has become over the last few years.  I remember that I stopped reading every thread on the Mustache forum years ago when it got to something like 200 new posts per day, but the Millionaire forum is rarely more than 50 posts per day.

They might only open a few times a year simply because they’re busy enjoying life for the rest of the year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 29, 2023, 07:18:05 PM

Decided to take a peek in here today. I’ve been lurking and occasionally posting here since the thread was first formed, and have been struggling to get to FIRE ever since. Sigh.

I was very happy to read today that Batteaux has finally pulled the pin (almost). That
probably leaves me as the final one of the first page posters still working from back in 2017 when CarJack created this thread. This  is certainly not a race that I wanted to finish last in. But it looks like I am last.

Unfortunately I keep dreaming up exciting ways to spend money 20 or more years from now. Also, I have become more conservative over the past 6 years in wanting greater certainty that I will actually be able to afford the dreams I keep coming up with. Probably too conservative. I have now landed on a targeted 3.33% draw down rate, ascribing to ERN’s research on success rates when stock markets are highly priced.

The good news? With the good run we have had on stocks and Realestate prices this year I am now on the cusp of my latest inflated “Number”.

The final hurdle is that we are currently building a new home, which will be finished mid next year, and are financing the build with debt. We will sell our current home and clear the debt only once the new place is ready to move in to. Hence we are very exposed to what house prices will be in our neck of the woods mid next year, and also the risk of having to finance the build longer if there are delays in construction. We feel we can not FIRE without a contingency in case house prices drop 10% or 20% between today and the sale date for our home, which is unlikely but quite possible. It is also possible that I am over valuing my current home despite my best efforts to be objective.

We are quite safely placed with our other investments, so we won’t have a big drop in net worth in the next 6 months, other than the risk on the sale value of our home.

So today, DW and I decided we will push on a few months more until I get my 2023 bonus (worth around $100K AUD) in March 2024, and finish up 5 April 2024 (might as well get paid over Easter).

So that’s it. No more moving goal posts. DW is a teacher and will tell her boss this month that she won’t be available for the 2024 calendar year (the school year here in Australia so her boss can look for a replacement. I’ll keep my gob tightly shut until Jan when I have to give 90 days notice.

Great to finally have a locked in plan. 8 months left of my working life.

I’ll make myself more present here over this coming year so that I can be kept inspired and be kept honest.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on July 29, 2023, 07:46:15 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 29, 2023, 07:18:05 PM

Why not sell the current place now and rent until the new house is done?

Yes, you'd move twice, but you'd eliminate the real estate pricing risk that is concerning to you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on July 29, 2023, 08:19:51 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 29, 2023, 07:46:15 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 29, 2023, 07:18:05 PM

Why not sell the current place now and rent until the new house is done?

Yes, you'd move twice, but you'd eliminate the real estate pricing risk that is concerning to you.

If it’s where I think it is, house prices are currently still rising sharply and a number of building companies have been going bankrupt. Both reasons to do what he’s doing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on July 29, 2023, 09:19:03 PM

Quote from: Nords on July 29, 2023, 10:16:52 AM

None of these people are buying private jets or yachts-- most of them don't even feel comfortable buying first-class airfare. 

I won't even buy premium economy tickets, but I live on my boat, which technically qualifies as a yacht by most definitions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Nords on July 30, 2023, 08:47:59 AM

Quote from: ixtap on July 29, 2023, 09:19:03 PM

Quote from: Nords on July 29, 2023, 10:16:52 AM

None of these people are buying private jets or yachts-- most of them don't even feel comfortable buying first-class airfare. 

I won't even buy premium economy tickets, but I live on my boat, which technically qualifies as a yacht by most definitions.

One member of the forum has a nice liveaboard sailboat.  He, his spouse, and their cat are currently working their way through the national park waters around Alaska.  He's also using a drone to take photos, so the nature pictures are incredible.

Another member of the forum crews a few days a week for fishing & SCUBA charters.  I think he also either has his captain's license or is close to it, but I can't remember any discussions about buying his own boat.  His spouse is wrapping up her career and he's padding their assets a little while he waits on her.  We spent a few hours together at last April's Money Mentor meetup and he's built himself one of the more impressive FI spreadsheet projections that I've seen.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on July 30, 2023, 12:02:52 PM

@Nords Hey good to hear from you. The surfing lessons you gave us was one of the highlights of our Hawaii trip!

And no, we still can't bring ourselves to pay for upgraded airline tickets.. $6000 each for a ticket to go to the UK when I got a row of three cattle class seats for $800... I just can't..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Nords on July 30, 2023, 12:51:43 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 30, 2023, 12:02:52 PM

@Nords Hey good to hear from you. The surfing lessons you gave us was one of the highlights of our Hawaii trip!

Glad to hear it!  I paddled out this morning in 2-4 feet around a family who was having a group lesson.

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 30, 2023, 12:02:52 PM

And no, we still can't bring ourselves to pay for upgraded airline tickets.. $6000 each for a ticket to go to the UK when I got a row of three cattle class seats for $800... I just can't..:)

It's another Perpetual Internet Debate over finding the value in the price-- contrasted with the financial advice of "If you don't fly first class then your heirs will."  But $6000 also helps a lot of food banks and homeless shelters.

We still fly military Space A whenever we can, especially C-17s.  We really value the experience and the camaraderie.  The heated decks are nice too...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: baludon on July 30, 2023, 08:27:16 PM

I flew Space A once from Dover to Ramstein or Stuttgart, now I can’t remember, for annual leave a long, long time ago.  I remember plenty of retirees hanging out at the terminal. There was this couple just waiting for an interesting destination to get on and I was kinda blown away of how cool of an adventure it would to just go wherever the winds of availability will take you.

Sadly, life got in the way and I didn’t get the chance to retire from the military. Not a regret though just thought Space A was a great retirement benefit.

I remember the chicken dinner on that C-5 flight was the best airplane food I ever had.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 30, 2023, 11:39:11 PM

Quote from: deborah on July 29, 2023, 08:19:51 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 29, 2023, 07:46:15 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 29, 2023, 07:18:05 PM

Why not sell the current place now and rent until the new house is done?

Yes, you'd move twice, but you'd eliminate the real estate pricing risk that is concerning to you.

If it’s where I think it is, house prices are currently still rising sharply and a number of building companies have been going bankrupt. Both reasons to do what he’s doing.

House prices are still rising, but I dont have confidence they will necessarily be doing so next year. However, I am not good at predicting the future so wont be acting on my gut instincts.
Yes, there are plenty of builders going bust, but I have confidence that my builder is in good enough shape to get my build done.

We have debated moving twice alot, but for various reasons have decided not to. I wont list the reasons here as it was a closely contested debate. But I do agree that it would go along way to reducing risk if we did rent.

One other reason for me to take the last bonus check, besides my fear on a housing correction, is that I have modelled everything assuming a 40 year retirement, which will take me to 91 and DW to 85. There is a reasonable chance one of us might still be in decent shape by then. If we invest $100K AUD now and leave it grow, and assuming it doubles every 10 years in real terms, it will be worth $1.6M (in todays $'AUD) in 40 years time. That $1.6M might be very helpful if DW lives to 100+. And who knows what other unexpected events could occur over the next 50 years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on July 31, 2023, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 30, 2023, 11:39:11 PM

Quote from: deborah on July 29, 2023, 08:19:51 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on July 29, 2023, 07:46:15 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 29, 2023, 07:18:05 PM

Why not sell the current place now and rent until the new house is done?

Yes, you'd move twice, but you'd eliminate the real estate pricing risk that is concerning to you.

If it’s where I think it is, house prices are currently still rising sharply and a number of building companies have been going bankrupt. Both reasons to do what he’s doing.

House prices are still rising, but I dont have confidence they will necessarily be doing so next year. However, I am not good at predicting the future so wont be acting on my gut instincts.
Yes, there are plenty of builders going bust, but I have confidence that my builder is in good enough shape to get my build done.

We have debated moving twice alot, but for various reasons have decided not to. I wont list the reasons here as it was a closely contested debate. But I do agree that it would go along way to reducing risk if we did rent.

One other reason for me to take the last bonus check, besides my fear on a housing correction, is that I have modelled everything assuming a 40 year retirement, which will take me to 91 and DW to 85. There is a reasonable chance one of us might still be in decent shape by then. If we invest $100K AUD now and leave it grow, and assuming it doubles every 10 years in real terms, it will be worth $1.6M (in todays $'AUD) in 40 years time. That $1.6M might be very helpful if DW lives to 100+. And who knows what other unexpected events could occur over the next 50 years.

"In Australia, a boy born in 2019–2021 can expect to live to the age of 81.3 years and a girl would be expected to live to 85.4 years compared to 51.1 for boys and 54.8 years for girls born in in 1891–1900."  -  That's what I don't like about this retirement thing.  You are planning for death.  It's really kind of morbid.  I wonder if actuaries become depressed alcoholics.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on July 31, 2023, 07:03:54 AM

No point hiding from death. I’d go as far as to say that if you don’t plan for death you are not properly planning for living either.

However, no matter how much I try, my DW refuses to discuss the fact that I’ll likely die rather young and she will need to forge on without me. I just wish she would get her head around that so the decisions we take now leave her wherever she wants to be after I’m gone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Nords on July 31, 2023, 09:14:00 AM

Quote from: baludon on July 30, 2023, 08:27:16 PM

I flew Space A once from Dover to Ramstein or Stuttgart, now I can’t remember, for annual leave a long, long time ago.  I remember plenty of retirees hanging out at the terminal. There was this couple just waiting for an interesting destination to get on and I was kinda blown away of how cool of an adventure it would to just go wherever the winds of availability will take you.

I remember the chicken dinner on that C-5 flight was the best airplane food I ever had.

We realized the other day that, between active duty and retirement, we’ve been flying Space A for nearly 40 years.  But retirement is much better because of the flexibility, and in Europe it’s easy to work with the Schengen system.  90 days is more than enough for us anyway-- we’d prefer to do about 60 days of slow travel and then chase summer back to Oahu.

We’ve flown from Dover to Spangdahlem and (on a separate trip) out of Ramstein to BWI in Baltimore.  And just in case, we pack enough of our own food in case the flight is delayed or the crew went cheap on their calories.

We’re currently signed up at our main Oahu passenger terminal (Hickam AFB), and on Labor Day weekend (after the active-duty families are back in school) we’re going to start showing up for roll calls to... wherever is on the mission schedule.  We’ll go to Japan or Korea and maybe Singapore (and eventually commercial to Bangkok)  or across the Mainland to Germany or (if we’re very lucky) to Sydney or Alice Springs (Australia).

I’m keenly aware that we may only have another 20 years of our slow-travel mobility left, and I don’t want to leave behind any regrets.

Quote from: pecunia on July 31, 2023, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 30, 2023, 11:39:11 PM

One other reason for me to take the last bonus check, besides my fear on a housing correction, is that I have modelled everything assuming a 40 year retirement, which will take me to 91 and DW to 85. There is a reasonable chance one of us might still be in decent shape by then. If we invest $100K AUD now and leave it grow, and assuming it doubles every 10 years in real terms, it will be worth $1.6M (in todays $'AUD) in 40 years time. That $1.6M might be very helpful if DW lives to 100+. And who knows what other unexpected events could occur over the next 50 years.

-  That's what I don't like about this retirement thing.  You are planning for death.  It's really kind of morbid.  I wonder if actuaries become depressed alcoholics.

Quote from: itchyfeet on July 31, 2023, 07:03:54 AM

No point hiding from death. I’d go as far as to say that if you don’t plan for death you are not properly planning for living either.

However, no matter how much I try my DW refers to discuss the fact that I’ll likely die rather young and she will need to forge on without me. I just wish she would get her head around that so the decisions we take now leave her wherever she wants to be after I’m gone.

I don’t know about actuaries.  If they feel challenged & fulfilled by doing math then they might never have a reason to stop working. 

I see the later stages of financial independence as the same type of Swedish death cleaning as writing a will and letting your family know what to do with your carcass after you’re finished with it.  My spouse seems eerily confident that I’m going to die before her, so I’d rather make the plans with her rather than letting her make the plans for me. 

More importantly, a lot of those financial chores are the same ones to plan for our disability.  I’ve had my father dump his lack of planning on me, and I had to get a conservator’s appointment and spend over six years of handling his finances and the care facility.  Our daughter’s experienced plenty of this lack of planning from her spouse’s side of the family, and oh the stories.  My spouse’s parents (whose plan was “We’re fine, honey”) just realized last week (after her mother had a fall) that they can no longer live independently.  Today they’re moving into assisted living under stress and physical therapy instead of on their own planning timeline. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on July 31, 2023, 11:28:58 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 03, 2022, 09:10:13 AM

Jan/21: As of close of the markets yesterday, we joined this race for the first time with an aggregate balance of $2.005M across all our savings/retirement/investment accounts.  TNW including home equity is somewhere a little north of $2.4M.

Jun/21: LNW was flirting with $2.2M for what seemed like months.  We finally crossed that threshold sometime in the past couple weeks and have stayed there since.  With similar market performance for the rest of the year we could be knocking on the door of $2.5M by end of year, or about $3M TNW.   100k/year @ 4% SWR.  That's nuts.

Aug/21: We crossed $2.3M today.  I don't know why it seemed like such a long time to go from 2.2 to 2.3.  It was only two months.

Nov/21: The recent market run-up brought us to just over $2.4M invested as of COB Thurs.  This last $100k took almost 3 months (cue world's smallest violin).  Closing out the year at $2.5M may be a stretch, but is certainty feasible.

Jan/22: I didn't pay attention to the markets at all for the past couple months (practice for FIRE?).  We ended the year at about $2.425M invested.  I was hoping for $2.5M, but going up $425k in 2021 isn't worth complaining about.

Jul/23: $2.52M invested.  A little discouraging that we're < 10% above where we were two years ago, and essentially all of that is due to savings over that time.  Accounting for inflation, it's more like a 0% net balance increase after savings, and maybe a -10% return considering inflation.  It's not really surprising considering how rough 2022 was.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 01, 2023, 02:44:56 PM

@Nords.

In your list it’s only the last two points that I’m only semi interested in.  How much is it vs the other stuff.

As for Cargo.  I only fly when it’s a special mission (I’m not military, you just move us).  But I’m less inclined to put myself in a position where I do fly it.  Especially C17.  The cargo hold isn’t shielded.  We’ve had a cancer cluster in our speciality teams that fly on them a lot.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Nords on August 01, 2023, 06:34:18 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 01, 2023, 02:44:56 PM

@Nords.

In your list it’s only the last two points that I’m only semi interested in.  How much is it vs the other stuff.

I'm not sure which list/post you're referring to, but if it's the one that ends:
- concierge medicine (like detailed annual physicals or joint replacements), and
- lifestyle. 
then absolutely.  And maybe for my version of concierge medicine I'm only looking at a detailed physical or scan (for example, calcium risks in coronary disease) or a joint replacement (worn-out knee cartilage).

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 01, 2023, 02:44:56 PM

As for Cargo.  I only fly when it’s a special mission (I’m not military, you just move us).  But I’m less inclined to put myself in a position where I do fly it.  Especially C17.  The cargo hold isn’t shielded.  We’ve had a cancer cluster in our speciality teams that fly on them a lot.

That's good to know.  I've heard from a lot of pilots (sitting right behind the radome) but not so much from aircrew.

If you have more (public) info or links with your specialty teams I'd like to learn more.  I've always wondered what commercial aircrew (flight attendants) see for radiation exposure during their routine flights at 30K-40K feet, but it's not as available as the info for military pilots or submariners.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 01, 2023, 08:21:28 PM

Quote from: Nords on August 01, 2023, 06:34:18 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 01, 2023, 02:44:56 PM

@Nords.

In your list it’s only the last two points that I’m only semi interested in.  How much is it vs the other stuff.

I'm not sure which list/post you're referring to, but if it's the one that ends:
- concierge medicine (like detailed annual physicals or joint replacements), and
- lifestyle. 
then absolutely.  And maybe for my version of concierge medicine I'm only looking at a detailed physical or scan (for example, calcium risks in coronary disease) or a joint replacement (worn-out knee cartilage).

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 01, 2023, 02:44:56 PM

As for Cargo.  I only fly when it’s a special mission (I’m not military, you just move us).  But I’m less inclined to put myself in a position where I do fly it.  Especially C17.  The cargo hold isn’t shielded.  We’ve had a cancer cluster in our speciality teams that fly on them a lot.

That's good to know.  I've heard from a lot of pilots (sitting right behind the radome) but not so much from aircrew.

If you have more (public) info or links with your specialty teams I'd like to learn more.  I've always wondered what commercial aircrew (flight attendants) see for radiation exposure during their routine flights at 30K-40K feet, but it's not as available as the info for military pilots or submariners.

I’ve been told the AF flight crews are monitored for exposure, our people are not.  Unfortunately my work is small and specialized civilians (there are less than 3,500 of us total), that the Air Force flys around and our specialty teams that fly lots are even smaller so there isn’t any public info on them.  For example, I’m likely fine since I only fly Cargo if I’m on an international trip, and that maybe happens once a year for me.  But some of the people I work with can be on multiple plane a week for much of the year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 02, 2023, 06:34:51 PM

Another guy, there are only four of us, beat me to it.  He quit today.  That leaves three and a partially trained replacement.  He was supposed to be my replacement. Since getting back from my backpacking trip, I've worked a 72 hour, a 60 hour and now this will be an 84 hour week!  I've got vacation next week at the Florida house.  Friends are coming up from Miami.  Told the boss I need my week off.  They claim to have a plan to cover it.  They are trying to shame me into staying longer.  I really want to transfer more knowledge before I leave, but the company (multinational chemical conglomerate) didn't act.  It's not my fault you dragged ass and didn't act.
Wife wants to know how we get paid when we quit.  I told her, you've already done the tough part. I do have a pension that will probably pay half the expenses.  Says she's working till the end of 23 and may do some remote stuff.
Monday night I'll have a cocktail in my Florida pool.  Not sure I'll return for the last two weeks.  The Appalachian Trail is calling for me in New England right now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on August 03, 2023, 06:09:47 AM

No way you should be working longer hours in your position. You know better than to let the company’s problem become your problem.

You get paid overtime?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 03, 2023, 07:38:51 AM

Honestly Bateuax, quitting at the height of being screwed over would be a gift - no regrets!  Instead of having the AT just call to you, answer that call man!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 03, 2023, 07:48:00 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 03, 2023, 07:38:51 AM

Honestly Bateuax, quitting at the height of being screwed over would be a gift - no regrets!  Instead of having the AT just call to you, answer that call man!

Years ago I was quitting a job and discussed it with an older co-worker.  I had some guilt / misgiving feelings.  He told me to just watch the news.  Do these financial guys feel any guilt when they close a factory?  I guess there are a lot of people getting laid off in Silicon Valley these days.  There's probably little guilt from the billionaires that run these places.  About the time I quit there was a guy named Chainsaw Al Dunlap in the news.  He was one of those that shuttered profitable US factories and moved the operations to China.  I moved on from that job with little to no remorse.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 03, 2023, 07:59:41 AM

My current agency is short staffed.  It will still be short staffed when I retire in 2025.  They will need expierenced people for many things between 2025-2028 and beyond.  I will have no gilt as my agency will have had me for 25 years, they’ve been given enough.  It’s not my fault that they ignored the frog being boiled making my job harder for 10-15 years causing todays current “crisis”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 03, 2023, 12:24:32 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on August 03, 2023, 06:09:47 AM

No way you should be working longer hours in your position. You know better than to let the company’s problem become your problem.

You get paid overtime?

I'm being paid well on overtime.  My allegiance is no longer to the company,  its to the tnew people coming in.  Had things been handed properly they wouldn't have to struggle.  I told them in March I was leaving, but that didn't mean I'd be staying till 2024.

Just ranting a bit. 

Appalachian Trail in September/October.

Vegas trip with wife in November

Florida Trail from Key West either hiking or biking starting in December

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: afulldeck on August 03, 2023, 12:26:56 PM

Never, never, worry about walking way from work. Your just a drop of water in the work pond. :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on August 03, 2023, 06:08:50 PM

So many employers want really long notice when we decide to leave.  One job, I liked my boss a lot.  He had been a peer at a previous engineering job.  I gave them a 7 week notice.  They started looking for someone a week before I left and got someone 3 days before I left.  They were twiddling their thumbs for 6 weeks.

My very last job before retiring a month ago, I gave my boss like 6 months notice.  They did nothing with that beyond panicking that they'll never find someone with my specific specialty.  Well, he'll be fine....he retired 2 weeks before I left.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Nords on August 03, 2023, 06:38:27 PM

Quote from: Dicey on July 28, 2023, 10:44:24 AM

Well, you piqued my interest, @Nords. I hopped over, expecting there would be some barrier to entry, but the $599 annual fee stopped me cold. Do they ever offer Black Friday deals?

You must have been reading John's mind, @Dicey.  Here's some quotes from his 3 August 2023 post on ESIMoney .com:

Quote

I will have one more sale this year (Black Friday) if you want to get in.

Or, if you don't want to pay for a membership:

Quote

I would really love to make it to 400 millionaire interviews. I have 375 sent in and ready to publish, so I just need 25 more! I actually have more than that who have asked for the instructions to submit theirs but they have not sent in their interviews yet. Just remember that if you do an interview and agree to some minimal participation guidelines then you get a free membership into MMM for your contribution. If interested in a millionaire interview (or a retirement interview for that matter), send me an email!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on August 03, 2023, 07:45:31 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on August 03, 2023, 06:08:50 PM

So many employers want really long notice when we decide to leave.  One job, I liked my boss a lot.  He had been a peer at a previous engineering job.  I gave them a 7 week notice.  They started looking for someone a week before I left and got someone 3 days before I left.  They were twiddling their thumbs for 6 weeks.

…

This is my experience as well. Same for moving jobs inside a company. I have never experienced any real transition effort. Sometimes HR gets in the way of course, no backfilling until spot is empty, and so on, but normally it’s typical lack of leadership.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 03, 2023, 10:18:39 PM

Best thing about being in this club.  I was looking at cross country airfare to visit my parents over Labor Day.  I almost didn’t book it because of the price (about $1,000 for a flight combo I could live with) but then I remembered I could afford it amid I wanted to see them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 05, 2023, 06:35:23 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on July 31, 2023, 11:28:58 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on January 03, 2022, 09:10:13 AM

Jan/21: As of close of the markets yesterday, we joined this race for the first time with an aggregate balance of $2.005M across all our savings/retirement/investment accounts.  TNW including home equity is somewhere a little north of $2.4M.

Jun/21: LNW was flirting with $2.2M for what seemed like months.  We finally crossed that threshold sometime in the past couple weeks and have stayed there since.  With similar market performance for the rest of the year we could be knocking on the door of $2.5M by end of year, or about $3M TNW.   100k/year @ 4% SWR.  That's nuts.

Aug/21: We crossed $2.3M today.  I don't know why it seemed like such a long time to go from 2.2 to 2.3.  It was only two months.

Nov/21: The recent market run-up brought us to just over $2.4M invested as of COB Thurs.  This last $100k took almost 3 months (cue world's smallest violin).  Closing out the year at $2.5M may be a stretch, but is certainty feasible.

Jan/22: I didn't pay attention to the markets at all for the past couple months (practice for FIRE?).  We ended the year at about $2.425M invested.  I was hoping for $2.5M, but going up $425k in 2021 isn't worth complaining about.

Jul/23: $2.52M invested.  A little discouraging that we're < 10% above where we were two years ago, and essentially all of that is due to savings over that time.  Accounting for inflation, it's more like a 0% net balance increase after savings, and maybe a -10% return considering inflation.  It's not really surprising considering how rough 2022 was.

I hear you on this one -- you're tracking pretty close to me, as I just did the math and from 6/30/21 to 6/30/23 I am up about 12-13% and, like you, I could probably account for the vast majority of this with my contributions.  July was fun, though!  Let's both hang in there and count on the next 2 years being better!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on August 05, 2023, 07:46:08 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 03, 2023, 10:18:39 PM

Best thing about being in this club.  I was looking at cross country airfare to visit my parents over Labor Day.  I almost didn’t book it because of the price (about $1,000 for a flight combo I could live with) but then I remembered I could afford it amid I wanted to see them.

Right on.  At the very lowest level of this club, a 0.06% (six one hundredths of 1%) swing in the SP500 amounts to a $1,000 change in your portfolio, assuming a 75% equity allocation.  Enjoy your visit with your parents!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on August 05, 2023, 08:36:33 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 05, 2023, 06:35:23 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on July 31, 2023, 11:28:58 AM

Jul/23: $2.52M invested.  A little discouraging that we're < 10% above where we were two years ago, and essentially all of that is due to savings over that time.  Accounting for inflation, it's more like a 0% net balance increase after savings, and maybe a -10% return considering inflation.  It's not really surprising considering how rough 2022 was.

I hear you on this one -- you're tracking pretty close to me, as I just did the math and from 6/30/21 to 6/30/23 I am up about 12-13% and, like you, I could probably account for the vast majority of this with my contributions.  July was fun, though!  Let's both hang in there and count on the next 2 years being better!

If the next 2 years are average/10% type of years, you might find me over in the Post FIRE section.  How about you?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 05, 2023, 08:47:22 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on August 05, 2023, 07:46:08 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 03, 2023, 10:18:39 PM

Best thing about being in this club.  I was looking at cross country airfare to visit my parents over Labor Day.  I almost didn’t book it because of the price (about $1,000 for a flight combo I could live with) but then I remembered I could afford it amid I wanted to see them.

Right on.  At the very lowest level of this club, a 0.06% (six one hundredths of 1%) swing in the SP500 amounts to a $1,000 change in your portfolio, assuming a 75% equity allocation.  Enjoy your visit with your parents!

This is one of the special and perplexing things about being in this cohort.  Most of the sustained progress comes from market returns, which aren't in our control.  Although it feels empowering to manage the spending side of the equation (and that was a big part of the early journey), many of us could spend much more than we do.

The philosophical question is, what the difference is between someone with $2.5M NW spending $100k/yr and someone with $5M (or $10M) spending that same amount?  To anyone other than the inheritors, these people are living the same life.  This is probably why we are getting so many messages about trying to increase the spend once you are below, say, 3% SWR...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 05, 2023, 04:10:16 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 05, 2023, 08:47:22 AM

The philosophical question is, what the difference is between someone with $2.5M NW spending $100k/yr and someone with $5M (or $10M) spending that same amount?  To anyone other than the inheritors, these people are living the same life.  This is probably why we are getting so many messages about trying to increase the spend once you are below, say, 3% SWR...

I'm always on the lookout for things that will improve my life in some noticeable way while trying not clutter up the house with random stuff but its not easy. What I've discovered in two and half years of retirement is that most of the things I really enjoy don't cost much money. For example, recently I spent an enjoyable month figuring out how to program a $25 controller chip. Our net worth went up by $150k in that time.

The one unambiguously expensive thing I do enjoy is luxury travel but there are limits. I'm discovering that there is only so much travel I can take at a time. After a lot of trips earlier this year, right now, I'm very happy just to be at home building stuff.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 05, 2023, 05:30:28 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on August 05, 2023, 08:36:33 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 05, 2023, 06:35:23 AM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on July 31, 2023, 11:28:58 AM

Jul/23: $2.52M invested.  A little discouraging that we're < 10% above where we were two years ago, and essentially all of that is due to savings over that time.  Accounting for inflation, it's more like a 0% net balance increase after savings, and maybe a -10% return considering inflation.  It's not really surprising considering how rough 2022 was.

I hear you on this one -- you're tracking pretty close to me, as I just did the math and from 6/30/21 to 6/30/23 I am up about 12-13% and, like you, I could probably account for the vast majority of this with my contributions.  July was fun, though!  Let's both hang in there and count on the next 2 years being better!

If the next 2 years are average/10% type of years, you might find me over in the Post FIRE section.  How about you?

I'm in!  I'll sign up for that plan!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 05, 2023, 05:36:08 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 05, 2023, 04:10:16 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 05, 2023, 08:47:22 AM

The philosophical question is, what the difference is between someone with $2.5M NW spending $100k/yr and someone with $5M (or $10M) spending that same amount?  To anyone other than the inheritors, these people are living the same life.  This is probably why we are getting so many messages about trying to increase the spend once you are below, say, 3% SWR...

I'm always on the lookout for things that will improve my life in some noticeable way while trying not clutter up the house with random stuff but its not easy. What I've discovered in two and half years of retirement is that most of the things I really enjoy don't cost much money. For example, recently I spent an enjoyable month figuring out how to program a $25 controller chip. Our net worth went up by $150k in that time.

The one unambiguously expensive thing I do enjoy is luxury travel but there are limits. I'm discovering that there is only so much travel I can take at a time. After a lot of trips earlier this year, right now, I'm very happy just to be at home building stuff.

One of my last justifications for being frugal was to demonstrate the lifestyle to our children while they were growing up.  My parents had the means to spend more but put my sisters and I on a path to FI by encouraging mindful spending.  My father passed away recently, after years of a much more lavish lifestyle, and still left behind a good amount.  I have a strong feeling I will follow in similar footsteps.  Our second child is starting her senior year in high school, so we are on the cusp of making some big exciting changes in the coming years, fingers crossed.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bird In Hand on August 06, 2023, 09:06:47 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 05, 2023, 05:30:28 PM

Quote from: Bird In Hand on August 05, 2023, 08:36:33 AM

If the next 2 years are average/10% type of years, you might find me over in the Post FIRE section.  How about you?

I'm in!  I'll sign up for that plan!

It turns out I had added myself to the 2025 FIRE Cohort (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/2025-fire-cohort/msg3170074/#msg3170074) about six years ago.  That might turn out to be a pretty good estimate!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on August 06, 2023, 09:17:30 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 03, 2023, 10:18:39 PM

Best thing about being in this club.  I was looking at cross country airfare to visit my parents over Labor Day.  I almost didn’t book it because of the price (about $1,000 for a flight combo I could live with) but then I remembered I could afford it amid I wanted to see them.

No kidding, this sums up the past month for me.  I just got back from a $15k European trip (flights/rooms/meals) across multiple countries for 3 weeks with my wife and 3 kids (college/high school age).  I have no idea how many more family trips we'll have together at this point so, given $15k is like 0.3% of my net worth, not once did I consider not doing it based on cost. It was all about finding 3 weeks everyone could go and where everyone wanted to go what they wanted to do.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 06, 2023, 10:58:42 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 05, 2023, 04:10:16 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 05, 2023, 08:47:22 AM

The philosophical question is, what the difference is between someone with $2.5M NW spending $100k/yr and someone with $5M (or $10M) spending that same amount?  To anyone other than the inheritors, these people are living the same life.  This is probably why we are getting so many messages about trying to increase the spend once you are below, say, 3% SWR...

I'm always on the lookout for things that will improve my life in some noticeable way while trying not clutter up the house with random stuff but its not easy. What I've discovered in two and half years of retirement is that most of the things I really enjoy don't cost much money. For example, recently I spent an enjoyable month figuring out how to program a $25 controller chip. Our net worth went up by $150k in that time.

The one unambiguously expensive thing I do enjoy is luxury travel but there are limits. I'm discovering that there is only so much travel I can take at a time. After a lot of trips earlier this year, right now, I'm very happy just to be at home building stuff.

Kind of related: I'm not a minimalist, but I find myself just not wanting "stuff" any more. I volunteer at a thrift shop and anything I need tends to show up there. We just returned from visiting our kids in CO. We find that we don't mind spending on them, but not in foolish ways. We took our granddaughter shopping for her birthday: two new dresses, new shoes, socks, and underwear. The fancy stores we chose were Costco and Walmart. She was thrilled. We went to Costco first, because we wanted to purchase some things for the family's business, as a surprise. We spent about $800 total and had fun doing it. We still enjoy the frugality game, we just play it differently.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 06, 2023, 11:23:11 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 05, 2023, 04:10:16 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 05, 2023, 08:47:22 AM

The philosophical question is, what the difference is between someone with $2.5M NW spending $100k/yr and someone with $5M (or $10M) spending that same amount?  To anyone other than the inheritors, these people are living the same life.  This is probably why we are getting so many messages about trying to increase the spend once you are below, say, 3% SWR...

I'm always on the lookout for things that will improve my life in some noticeable way while trying not clutter up the house with random stuff but its not easy. What I've discovered in two and half years of retirement is that most of the things I really enjoy don't cost much money. For example, recently I spent an enjoyable month figuring out how to program a $25 controller chip. Our net worth went up by $150k in that time.

The one unambiguously expensive thing I do enjoy is luxury travel but there are limits. I'm discovering that there is only so much travel I can take at a time. After a lot of trips earlier this year, right now, I'm very happy just to be at home building stuff.

Also, your post is a lot like one of my earliest posts on this thread -

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 03, 2017, 06:37:15 AM

Interested to see how this thread goes, but I'm on vacation right now...  Funny thing is, I'm 50k or more better off than when I started this trip, makes it tough to focus on being frugal!

I guess the novelty of it has worn off, it's just a normal recurring pattern, even when I think I'm 'overspending' now!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 06, 2023, 01:25:11 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 06, 2023, 11:23:11 AM

Also, your post is a lot like one of my earliest posts on this thread -

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 03, 2017, 06:37:15 AM

Interested to see how this thread goes, but I'm on vacation right now...  Funny thing is, I'm 50k or more better off than when I started this trip, makes it tough to focus on being frugal!

I guess the novelty of it has worn off, it's just a normal recurring pattern, even when I think I'm 'overspending' now!

It was fun reading posts from 2017. One thing that strikes me is how little has changed for most of the participants here in six years. In fact, everyone is better off and people don't seem to have dropped out of this group.

2017 was really the last year I really enjoyed my work. We had a meeting with our Fidelity rep in December 2017 and he asked me when I planned to retire. I distinctly remember replying that I was not even thinking about retiring. However, by as soon as the middle of 2018, my work environment deteriorated so badly that I was wondering how I could make an exit. Thank goodness this forum was there to help me make the transition to retirement :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 06, 2023, 04:18:31 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 06, 2023, 01:25:11 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 06, 2023, 11:23:11 AM

Also, your post is a lot like one of my earliest posts on this thread -

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 03, 2017, 06:37:15 AM

Interested to see how this thread goes, but I'm on vacation right now...  Funny thing is, I'm 50k or more better off than when I started this trip, makes it tough to focus on being frugal!

I guess the novelty of it has worn off, it's just a normal recurring pattern, even when I think I'm 'overspending' now!

It was fun reading posts from 2017. One thing that strikes me is how little has changed for most of the participants here in six years. In fact, everyone is better off and people don't seem to have dropped out of this group.

2017 was really the last year I really enjoyed my work. We had a meeting with our Fidelity rep in December 2017 and he asked me when I planned to retire. I distinctly remember replying that I was not even thinking about retiring. However, by as soon as the middle of 2018, my work environment deteriorated so badly that I was wondering how I could make an exit. Thank goodness this forum was there to help me make the transition to retirement :-)

I remember that forum discussion well. Seems like you've done a bang-up job of this FIRE thing. Congrats!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 06, 2023, 04:21:57 PM

I, for one, had a much smaller net worth in 2017. I’ll need to open my spreadsheet, but around 50% I expect.

At that time I thought I was fairly close to FIRE. I just needed to find my way back to Australia and get my ducks in a row, including selling my expensive Sydney home.

Six years on and the biggest difference is that we have decided to move from our expensive Sydney home to another expensive home. So we need a bigger stash.

Inflation and conservatism account for the rest. Other than the house, our dreams for our post retirement lifestyle haven’t changed much these past 6 years despite being far wealthier. That’s encouraging.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 11, 2023, 12:02:41 AM

So today my DW bravely told her boss that she would not be returning after Christmas for the 2024 school year (school year = calendar year in Australia).

Effectively my DW has handed in her resignation and has committed to FIRE.

She shared with me that it was a very nerve wracking thing to do.

She found it very scary to be relying on all I have been preaching about early retirement and our purported sound financial position..... And her boss loves her and wanted her to stay.

Now the pressure is on me. I need to also give notice soon.... YIKES.

I still feel I am crazy to be walking away from my high paying job (that I dont love mind you, but nonetheless has been good to me financially over the years), and I will be leaving alot on the table in the form of golden handcuffs too.

I keep telling myself that I am content in my plans and our stash is "enough". But will I have regrets?

Maybe one day I will particularly want to drive a Porsche 911 and own a holiday house on the coast, own a pied de terre in the city and fly at the pointy end of planes.....Surely not.

Maybe my math is wrong and I have overlooked something.... Maybe I will loath not working....

Getting across this finish line is hard.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 11, 2023, 12:32:47 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 11, 2023, 12:02:41 AM

So today my DW bravely told her boss that she would not be returning after Christmas for the 2024 school year (school year = calendar year in Australia).

Effectively my DW has handed in her resignation and has committed to FIRE.

She shared with me that it was a very nerve wracking thing to do.

She found it very scary to be relying on all I have been preaching about early retirement and our purported sound financial position..... And her boss loves her and wanted her to stay.

Now the pressure is on me. I need to also give notice soon.... YIKES.

I still feel I am crazy to be walking away from my high paying job (that I dont love mind you, but nonetheless has been good to me financially over the years), and I will be leaving alot on the table in the form of golden handcuffs too.

I keep telling myself that I am content in my plans and our stash is "enough". But will I have regrets?

Maybe one day I will particularly want to drive a Porsche 911 and own a holiday house on the coast, own a pied de terre in the city and fly at the pointy end of planes.....Surely not.

Maybe my math is wrong and I have overlooked something.... Maybe I will loath not working....

Getting across this finish line is hard.

Should you find that you really need one or more of those things, there are plenty types of ways to hack them. Go, have fun with the rest of your life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Ozlady on August 11, 2023, 01:25:16 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 06, 2023, 04:21:57 PM

I, for one, had a much smaller net worth in 2017. I’ll need to open my spreadsheet, but around 50% I expect.

At that time I thought I was fairly close to FIRE. I just needed to find my way back to Australia and get my ducks in a row, including selling my expensive Sydney home.

Six years on and the biggest difference is that we have decided to move from our expensive Sydney home to another expensive home. So we need a bigger stash.

Inflation and conservatism account for the rest. Other than the house, our dreams for our post retirement lifestyle haven’t changed much these past 6 years despite being far wealthier. That’s encouraging.

Exciting times Itchy Feet...

I may have missed it but what is the logic behind "moving from one expensive home to another expensive home" so  close to retirement?

Curious...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 11, 2023, 06:25:26 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 11, 2023, 12:02:41 AM

So today my DW bravely told her boss that she would not be returning after Christmas for the 2024 school year (school year = calendar year in Australia).

Effectively my DW has handed in her resignation and has committed to FIRE.

She shared with me that it was a very nerve wracking thing to do.

She found it very scary to be relying on all I have been preaching about early retirement and our purported sound financial position..... And her boss loves her and wanted her to stay.

Now the pressure is on me. I need to also give notice soon.... YIKES.

I still feel I am crazy to be walking away from my high paying job (that I dont love mind you, but nonetheless has been good to me financially over the years), and I will be leaving alot on the table in the form of golden handcuffs too.

I keep telling myself that I am content in my plans and our stash is "enough". But will I have regrets?

Maybe one day I will particularly want to drive a Porsche 911 and own a holiday house on the coast, own a pied de terre in the city and fly at the pointy end of planes.....Surely not.

Maybe my math is wrong and I have overlooked something.... Maybe I will loath not working....

Getting across this finish line is hard.

When you look at a flying airplane, there are four forces acting on it: Thrust forward, drag backwards, lift upwards and gravity downward. Using this as a metaphor for early retirement:

Lift = Assets
Gravity = Liabilities
Thrust = "push" in the form of an unpleasant job and "pull" in the form of something you want to do with your time.
Drag = anxiety about finances

So early retirement means you are climbing: Thrust is greater than drag, and lift is greater than gravity. Not sure where I'm going with this but maybe this helped? 😀

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 11, 2023, 07:00:50 AM

Quote from: Ozlady on August 11, 2023, 01:25:16 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 06, 2023, 04:21:57 PM

I, for one, had a much smaller net worth in 2017. I’ll need to open my spreadsheet, but around 50% I expect.

At that time I thought I was fairly close to FIRE. I just needed to find my way back to Australia and get my ducks in a row, including selling my expensive Sydney home.

Six years on and the biggest difference is that we have decided to move from our expensive Sydney home to another expensive home. So we need a bigger stash.

Inflation and conservatism account for the rest. Other than the house, our dreams for our post retirement lifestyle haven’t changed much these past 6 years despite being far wealthier. That’s encouraging.

Exciting times Itchy Feet...

I may have missed it but what is the logic behind "moving from one expensive home to another expensive home" so  close to retirement?

Curious...

We currently live in an inner suburb of Sydney, which has been great while working being so close to the city and having bars and restaurants on our doorstep.

But nowadays we are also bursting at the seams a bit as we expand our hobbies. In particular I have camping gear and car parts piled up in what is meant to be my office space. Our camper trailer is crammed in our tiny backyard and is difficult (painfully so) to get in and out of the parking space. I need a shed to tinker in.

DW also needs space too. She wants a yoga studio/ gym.

We also want to grow food and I want to build a garden and try my hand at landscaping. I used to work as a landscape labourer when I was at university to earn a few dollars.

We just decided we wanted more space to spread out, and also have room to host family and friends who might stay with us for a longer period as we won’t be rushing around any more,

We originally thought we would just move into a regional area where we could buy a lot more for a lot less. In the end this didn’t play out as we decided we actually wanted to still be not too far from Sydney where we have a big group of friends that we love spending time with, and aging parents that we want to be nearby to spend time with as they won’t be around forever.

We ended buying a couple of beautiful acres in the Southern Highlands, which is an expensive area as it’s still only about 90 mins from the city centre, and then we ended up signing up to build more house than we will probably know what to do with. Anyways, it’s all an adventure and we can sell our oversized house once I have landscaped the bejeezus out of it and got that out of my system.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 11, 2023, 07:04:25 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 11, 2023, 06:25:26 AM

When you look at a flying airplane, there are four forces acting on it: Thrust forward, drag backwards, lift upwards and gravity downward. Using this as a metaphor for early retirement:

Lift = Assets
Gravity = Liabilities
Thrust = "push" in the form of an unpleasant job and "pull" in the form of something you want to do with your time.
Drag = anxiety about finances

So early retirement means you are climbing: Thrust is greater than drag, and lift is greater than gravity. Not sure where I'm going with this but maybe this helped? 😀

I am definitely feeling the pull in multiple directions. I’m not sure what the ejection seat trigger represents, but assuming it comes with the promise of a parachute and a gentle landing, I am ready to press eject.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 11, 2023, 07:52:02 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 11, 2023, 06:25:26 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 11, 2023, 12:02:41 AM

So today my DW bravely told her boss that she would not be returning after Christmas for the 2024 school year (school year = calendar year in Australia).

Effectively my DW has handed in her resignation and has committed to FIRE.

She shared with me that it was a very nerve wracking thing to do.

She found it very scary to be relying on all I have been preaching about early retirement and our purported sound financial position..... And her boss loves her and wanted her to stay.

Now the pressure is on me. I need to also give notice soon.... YIKES.

I still feel I am crazy to be walking away from my high paying job (that I dont love mind you, but nonetheless has been good to me financially over the years), and I will be leaving alot on the table in the form of golden handcuffs too.

I keep telling myself that I am content in my plans and our stash is "enough". But will I have regrets?

Maybe one day I will particularly want to drive a Porsche 911 and own a holiday house on the coast, own a pied de terre in the city and fly at the pointy end of planes.....Surely not.

Maybe my math is wrong and I have overlooked something.... Maybe I will loath not working....

Getting across this finish line is hard.

When you look at a flying airplane, there are four forces acting on it: Thrust forward, drag backwards, lift upwards and gravity downward. Using this as a metaphor for early retirement:

Lift = Assets
Gravity = Liabilities
Thrust = "push" in the form of an unpleasant job and "pull" in the form of something you want to do with your time.
Drag = anxiety about finances

So early retirement means you are climbing: Thrust is greater than drag, and lift is greater than gravity. Not sure where I'm going with this but maybe this helped? 😀

I think your "airplane" becomes a "glider" after RE and you switch over from relying on your engine (job) to climb & accelerate to relying on your skills riding the thermals (investments) to maintain altitude and momentum until the end of the ride.


I guess Fat FIRE would be like keeping the engine & getting a free gas card.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 11, 2023, 11:16:46 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on August 03, 2023, 07:45:31 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on August 03, 2023, 06:08:50 PM

So many employers want really long notice when we decide to leave.  One job, I liked my boss a lot.  He had been a peer at a previous engineering job.  I gave them a 7 week notice.  They started looking for someone a week before I left and got someone 3 days before I left.  They were twiddling their thumbs for 6 weeks.

…

This is my experience as well. Same for moving jobs inside a company. I have never experienced any real transition effort. Sometimes HR gets in the way of course, no backfilling until spot is empty, and so on, but normally it’s typical lack of leadership.

My megacorp tech company has dragged ass for so long in hiring ( like literally over a decade ), there is absolutely no way they can fill the gap, and they know it. 

And you know what?   F'em.  They have treated employees so badly for so long ( yearly layoffs, etc.. ), that I'm to the point that I want to screw them over when I leave.   I hate to be that way, but when that's how you get when employees have been treated so poorly for so long.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 11, 2023, 12:06:39 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 11, 2023, 11:16:46 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on August 03, 2023, 07:45:31 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on August 03, 2023, 06:08:50 PM

So many employers want really long notice when we decide to leave.  One job, I liked my boss a lot.  He had been a peer at a previous engineering job.  I gave them a 7 week notice.  They started looking for someone a week before I left and got someone 3 days before I left.  They were twiddling their thumbs for 6 weeks.

…

This is my experience as well. Same for moving jobs inside a company. I have never experienced any real transition effort. Sometimes HR gets in the way of course, no backfilling until spot is empty, and so on, but normally it’s typical lack of leadership.

My megacorp tech company has dragged ass for so long in hiring ( like literally over a decade ), there is absolutely no way they can fill the gap, and they know it. 

And you know what?   F'em.  They have treated employees so badly for so long ( yearly layoffs, etc.. ), that I'm to the point that I want to screw them over when I leave.   I hate to be that way, but when that's how you get when employees have been treated so poorly for so long.

You guys are have all done well.  Most of you have a very positive view of the corporate world.  I'm guessing the politics lean heavily to the conservative side.  Therefore that the idea of not training new employees or replacing employees is a deliberate way to up the cash flow may not be met with positivity.  However, it does exist in the corporate world.   For example, private equity companies may suck the recent acquisition dry.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/private-equity-deadspin/ (https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/private-equity-deadspin/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 11, 2023, 12:39:14 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 11, 2023, 12:06:39 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 11, 2023, 11:16:46 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on August 03, 2023, 07:45:31 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on August 03, 2023, 06:08:50 PM

So many employers want really long notice when we decide to leave.  One job, I liked my boss a lot.  He had been a peer at a previous engineering job.  I gave them a 7 week notice.  They started looking for someone a week before I left and got someone 3 days before I left.  They were twiddling their thumbs for 6 weeks.

…

This is my experience as well. Same for moving jobs inside a company. I have never experienced any real transition effort. Sometimes HR gets in the way of course, no backfilling until spot is empty, and so on, but normally it’s typical lack of leadership.

My megacorp tech company has dragged ass for so long in hiring ( like literally over a decade ), there is absolutely no way they can fill the gap, and they know it. 

And you know what?   F'em.  They have treated employees so badly for so long ( yearly layoffs, etc.. ), that I'm to the point that I want to screw them over when I leave.   I hate to be that way, but when that's how you get when employees have been treated so poorly for so long.

You guys are have all done well.  Most of you have a very positive view of the corporate world.  I'm guessing the politics lean heavily to the conservative side.  Therefore that the idea of not training new employees or replacing employees is a deliberate way to up the cash flow may not be met with positivity.  However, it does exist in the corporate world.   For example, private equity companies may suck the recent acquisition dry.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/private-equity-deadspin/ (https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/private-equity-deadspin/)

Haha...well, I'm pretty much the least conservative person out there...so no, I don't lean conservative.

It just irks me when corporations lay people off with no notice whatsoever and then "Expect" a long lead time when an employee decides to bail on them.   Uhh...no.  That's not the way it works.

Also a bit annoyed when people feel "guilty" when they leave, especially from a megacorp.  Folks, don't feel guilty about your decision to leave on short notice...you are but a cog in the machine, if even that. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 11, 2023, 01:17:18 PM

I guess fiscally we all believe in the "free" market.. At least we follow what rich people do generally and Voila we are also wealthy.. ish!

Politically I would say I was a moderate Republican with a strong sense of a need for some socialised underpinnings.. such as universal healthcare.

As to the current GOP.. Well lets just say I'm rooting for Jack Smith and believe Treason (if proved) should meet with a date with the electric chair!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on August 11, 2023, 01:26:18 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 11, 2023, 12:39:14 PM

...

It just irks me when corporations lay people off with no notice whatsoever and then "Expect" a long lead time when an employee decides to bail on them.   Uhh...no.  That's not the way it works.

Also a bit annoyed when people feel "guilty" when they leave, especially from a megacorp.  Folks, don't feel guilty about your decision to leave on short notice...you are but a cog in the machine, if even that.

I had an (ex)boss once who lamented to me a few days after I gave two weeks notice "we were disappointed that with your position you didn't give at least three weeks." I simply answered "boss, I consulted the employee handbook I was given when I started. It says 'we would appreciate two week notice if resigning.' If you folks want people above a certain level to give more time, step one would be to put it in the handbook".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: catccc on August 11, 2023, 01:42:19 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 16, 2023, 06:28:30 AM

Quote from: catccc on July 15, 2023, 10:51:47 PM

Officially rejoining this thread.  Hit $2M a couple days ago. In late 2021 it looked like it was just around the corner, and then 2022 happened.

I am really having a hard time deciding if I like my job or if it stresses me out, and if I should keep working or not.

DH doesn’t like his job, but feels it is unfair to retire before I do.  I am fine with it, but I would expect that he take on a lot of the domestic duties are currently split but still mostly on me.

I’m thinking maybe we get to $3M and then really I quit?  But I said that about $2M before, so IDK.

I keep doing well at work and they keep paying me more, so I feel like I gotta strike while it’s hot.

@catccc
Welcome back!!
We are just a year or two ahead of you in terms of our ages and our kids ages. I FIREd in 2020 (but have been doing a bit of contract work) DH is still working. He loves his job and it covers our crazy crazy tuition bills and provides great insurance. He plans to stay 10 more years but we’ll see what happens.
I’ve found FIRE during this time with the kids to be really helpful because they need to be driven so many places all the time!!  But it’s also frustrating because we can’t really travel until the kids are out of school. Which is another reason DH has been happy to keep working and I’ve done some contact work. We are tied to the house because of the school schedule anyway might as well bring in a little money!
The other difficulty I’ve found in FIRE with kids is that I’m never quite sure what our expenses will be. Tuition is a lot but it’s mostly known. The sports bills really add up and tend to fluctuate. We will have a new driver soon and I have no idea what insurance and vehicle costs will be for him. I’m not sure what college will really be either. And while all these things can be really expensive they will start to significantly taper off in 8 years.
All that to say, I’m glad to be FI. I’m sure you are too. But I can understand with kids the allure of continuing to work and earn more at least until they are (mostly) flown.

Thanks for sharing your experience!  I have looked into insurance costs and it is pricey, but I suppose that is part of the cost of raising kids.  I would really like DH to FIRE, but he also feels he has to be doing "something."  I think that "something" could be focusing on his health and managing the household.  But his work is seasonal and we are about to roll into a slower and less stressful time for him, so it makes some sense for him to keep going at the moment.  Maybe next Spring before the busy season rolls around he can bow out gracefully.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: catccc on August 11, 2023, 01:45:58 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 16, 2023, 08:35:30 AM

Quote from: catccc on July 15, 2023, 10:51:47 PM

Officially rejoining this thread.  Hit $2M a couple days ago. In late 2021 it looked like it was just around the corner, and then 2022 happened.

I am really having a hard time deciding if I like my job or if it stresses me out, and if I should keep working or not.

DH doesn’t like his job, but feels it is unfair to retire before I do.  I am fine with it, but I would expect that he take on a lot of the domestic duties are currently split but still mostly on me.

I’m thinking maybe we get to $3M and then really I quit?  But I said that about $2M before, so IDK.

I keep doing well at work and they keep paying me more, so I feel like I gotta strike while it’s hot.

Here's the thing that hit me when it finally rolled into my head and I didn't have to be on the job.  Because I was no longer dependent on the job, it was like a weight lifted.  I could smile at some of the stuff that used to weigh me down.  In a sort of way, I became in charge and not "them."

I like that and understand it to a point... I am able to let go of the results that are outside of my control.  If a colleague wants choice A for a project XYZ, and I disagree and think we should go with choice B, I'll make my case, but I won't stress if it doesn't go my way, because ultimately the consequences aren't that impactful to me personally.  But of course we have our personal pride, and I don't want to do a bad job at my job... so there is pressure to continue to perform. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: catccc on August 11, 2023, 01:56:59 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on July 16, 2023, 06:34:16 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 16, 2023, 06:28:30 AM

Quote from: catccc on July 15, 2023, 10:51:47 PM

Officially rejoining this thread.  Hit $2M a couple days ago. In late 2021 it looked like it was just around the corner, and then 2022 happened.

I am really having a hard time deciding if I like my job or if it stresses me out, and if I should keep working or not.

DH doesn’t like his job, but feels it is unfair to retire before I do.  I am fine with it, but I would expect that he take on a lot of the domestic duties are currently split but still mostly on me.

I’m thinking maybe we get to $3M and then really I quit?  But I said that about $2M before, so IDK.

I keep doing well at work and they keep paying me more, so I feel like I gotta strike while it’s hot.

@catccc
Welcome back!!
We are just a year or two ahead of you in terms of our ages and our kids ages. I FIREd in 2020 (but have been doing a bit of contract work) DH is still working. He loves his job and it covers our crazy crazy tuition bills and provides great insurance. He plans to stay 10 more years but we’ll see what happens.
I’ve found FIRE during this time with the kids to be really helpful because they need to be driven so many places all the time!!  But it’s also frustrating because we can’t really travel until the kids are out of school. Which is another reason DH has been happy to keep working and I’ve done some contact work. We are tied to the house because of the school schedule anyway might as well bring in a little money!
The other difficulty I’ve found in FIRE with kids is that I’m never quite sure what our expenses will be. Tuition is a lot but it’s mostly known. The sports bills really add up and tend to fluctuate. We will have a new driver soon and I have no idea what insurance and vehicle costs will be for him. I’m not sure what college will really be either. And while all these things can be really expensive they will start to significantly taper off in 8 years.
All that to say, I’m glad to be FI. I’m sure you are too. But I can understand with kids the allure of continuing to work and earn more at least until they are (mostly) flown.

BC - I am with you as you know having commented on some of my posts.   Big time struggle having kids aging into driving and college....and wanting to do some great family time trips to lock in the time and memories for years to come (just got back from a kick ass trip to Hawaii).   Kids activity costs are still high but only a year or few left of that, and college costs are overwhelming but we have set aside an amount that covers all but the most expensive schools.......wish i could be like most and buy a vacation home and let my kids be overly indebted from school, but alas I am a sucker.   It's probably still not enough.   

I went back to work and while sucks, I think the original rationale holds and thus far was worth it even if i hate it and I am unhealthier than I was.....setting aside significantly more for college costs and covering a couple of spendy memorable trips was worth it.   

But not for much longer....my state on a mental and physical basis can best be compared to that guy in the Supersize Me documentary.   Sure, some will say it's not worth even in the short term but to each their own. 

TLDR....having 3 teens in a multitude of activies and are likely college bound is F'ing expensive , and for years to come.   

ETA....about 10 years ago I thought we has "Enough" which by the way was less than half of what we have now on an inflation adjusted basis.   At the time, my oldest was 7 and what we had relative to our expenses was spot on....except that our expenses grew as they grew.....everything cost more (food, medical, activities.....did I say activities....oh and trips for 5 cost a f'ck ton...always something.....oh yeah, and then we started thinking about college....WTF).   Without kids no doubt we would have been golden.....butbi love those little (now big f'ers).

The only problem is that bc I was wrong I continue to think I was wrong and I really am not sure how much we need....even though I think we are good.

So much "samesies."  I think our FI number used to be 1.4M.  Based on our spending now, that wouldn't cut it.  So I was wrong, and maybe I'm wrong that 2.0M would be enough.  Plus, there are a bunch of unknowns, like growing kids, aging parents, aging us.

Also, just got back from a kick ass trip to Hawaii!  3 weeks.  I was considering asking for a sabbatical in 2022 to go for a month, planning to quit if the sabbatical wasn't approved.  Then I got promoted and decided not to ask for the sabbatical.  I got two more raises between the promotion and now, and I think things are going well, and I'm afraid we don't have enough, so I'm just plugging away.

I really do think DH should quit, though.  He's so over that job.  It doesn't pay a ton.  He has access to a 403b and a 457, and is salary is just around the contribution limit for both, so it is definitely helping our stash, but we don't rely on his paycheck for anything because his take home pay is literally between a few dollars.  Once it went negative, so there was no direct deposit and we didn't even notice for a number of months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 11, 2023, 02:00:44 PM

Quote from: catccc on August 11, 2023, 01:56:59 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on July 16, 2023, 06:34:16 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 16, 2023, 06:28:30 AM

Quote from: catccc on July 15, 2023, 10:51:47 PM

Officially rejoining this thread.  Hit $2M a couple days ago. In late 2021 it looked like it was just around the corner, and then 2022 happened.

I am really having a hard time deciding if I like my job or if it stresses me out, and if I should keep working or not.

DH doesn’t like his job, but feels it is unfair to retire before I do.  I am fine with it, but I would expect that he take on a lot of the domestic duties are currently split but still mostly on me.

I’m thinking maybe we get to $3M and then really I quit?  But I said that about $2M before, so IDK.

I keep doing well at work and they keep paying me more, so I feel like I gotta strike while it’s hot.

@catccc
Welcome back!!
We are just a year or two ahead of you in terms of our ages and our kids ages. I FIREd in 2020 (but have been doing a bit of contract work) DH is still working. He loves his job and it covers our crazy crazy tuition bills and provides great insurance. He plans to stay 10 more years but we’ll see what happens.
I’ve found FIRE during this time with the kids to be really helpful because they need to be driven so many places all the time!!  But it’s also frustrating because we can’t really travel until the kids are out of school. Which is another reason DH has been happy to keep working and I’ve done some contact work. We are tied to the house because of the school schedule anyway might as well bring in a little money!
The other difficulty I’ve found in FIRE with kids is that I’m never quite sure what our expenses will be. Tuition is a lot but it’s mostly known. The sports bills really add up and tend to fluctuate. We will have a new driver soon and I have no idea what insurance and vehicle costs will be for him. I’m not sure what college will really be either. And while all these things can be really expensive they will start to significantly taper off in 8 years.
All that to say, I’m glad to be FI. I’m sure you are too. But I can understand with kids the allure of continuing to work and earn more at least until they are (mostly) flown.

BC - I am with you as you know having commented on some of my posts.   Big time struggle having kids aging into driving and college....and wanting to do some great family time trips to lock in the time and memories for years to come (just got back from a kick ass trip to Hawaii).   Kids activity costs are still high but only a year or few left of that, and college costs are overwhelming but we have set aside an amount that covers all but the most expensive schools.......wish i could be like most and buy a vacation home and let my kids be overly indebted from school, but alas I am a sucker.   It's probably still not enough.   

I went back to work and while sucks, I think the original rationale holds and thus far was worth it even if i hate it and I am unhealthier than I was.....setting aside significantly more for college costs and covering a couple of spendy memorable trips was worth it.   

But not for much longer....my state on a mental and physical basis can best be compared to that guy in the Supersize Me documentary.   Sure, some will say it's not worth even in the short term but to each their own. 

TLDR....having 3 teens in a multitude of activies and are likely college bound is F'ing expensive , and for years to come.   

ETA....about 10 years ago I thought we has "Enough" which by the way was less than half of what we have now on an inflation adjusted basis.   At the time, my oldest was 7 and what we had relative to our expenses was spot on....except that our expenses grew as they grew.....everything cost more (food, medical, activities.....did I say activities....oh and trips for 5 cost a f'ck ton...always something.....oh yeah, and then we started thinking about college....WTF).   Without kids no doubt we would have been golden.....butbi love those little (now big f'ers).

The only problem is that bc I was wrong I continue to think I was wrong and I really am not sure how much we need....even though I think we are good.

So much "samesies."  I think our FI number used to be 1.4M.  Based on our spending now, that wouldn't cut it.  So I was wrong, and maybe I'm wrong that 2.0M would be enough.  Plus, there are a bunch of unknowns, like growing kids, aging parents, aging us.

Also, just got back from a kick ass trip to Hawaii!  3 weeks.  I was considering asking for a sabbatical in 2022 to go for a month, planning to quit if the sabbatical wasn't approved.  Then I got promoted and decided not to ask for the sabbatical.  I got two more raises between the promotion and now, and I think things are going well, and I'm afraid we don't have enough, so I'm just plugging away.

I really do think DH should quit, though.  He's so over that job.  It doesn't pay a ton.  He has access to a 403b and a 457, and is salary is just around the contribution limit for both, so it is definitely helping our stash, but we don't rely on his paycheck for anything because his take home pay is literally between a few dollars.  Once it went negative, so there was no direct deposit and we didn't even notice for a number of months.

Sounds like everyone here has OMY syndrome.   Including me.    I'm in the same boat as your DH.   I'm SO over my current megacorp job it isn't even funny.  Been there for 30+ years now...and I'm pretty much done, but continuing to coast.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 11, 2023, 06:29:23 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 11, 2023, 02:00:44 PM

Quote from: catccc on August 11, 2023, 01:56:59 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on July 16, 2023, 06:34:16 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 16, 2023, 06:28:30 AM

Quote from: catccc on July 15, 2023, 10:51:47 PM

Officially rejoining this thread.  Hit $2M a couple days ago. In late 2021 it looked like it was just around the corner, and then 2022 happened.

I am really having a hard time deciding if I like my job or if it stresses me out, and if I should keep working or not.

DH doesn’t like his job, but feels it is unfair to retire before I do.  I am fine with it, but I would expect that he take on a lot of the domestic duties are currently split but still mostly on me.

I’m thinking maybe we get to $3M and then really I quit?  But I said that about $2M before, so IDK.

I keep doing well at work and they keep paying me more, so I feel like I gotta strike while it’s hot.

@catccc
Welcome back!!
We are just a year or two ahead of you in terms of our ages and our kids ages. I FIREd in 2020 (but have been doing a bit of contract work) DH is still working. He loves his job and it covers our crazy crazy tuition bills and provides great insurance. He plans to stay 10 more years but we’ll see what happens.
I’ve found FIRE during this time with the kids to be really helpful because they need to be driven so many places all the time!!  But it’s also frustrating because we can’t really travel until the kids are out of school. Which is another reason DH has been happy to keep working and I’ve done some contact work. We are tied to the house because of the school schedule anyway might as well bring in a little money!
The other difficulty I’ve found in FIRE with kids is that I’m never quite sure what our expenses will be. Tuition is a lot but it’s mostly known. The sports bills really add up and tend to fluctuate. We will have a new driver soon and I have no idea what insurance and vehicle costs will be for him. I’m not sure what college will really be either. And while all these things can be really expensive they will start to significantly taper off in 8 years.
All that to say, I’m glad to be FI. I’m sure you are too. But I can understand with kids the allure of continuing to work and earn more at least until they are (mostly) flown.

BC - I am with you as you know having commented on some of my posts.   Big time struggle having kids aging into driving and college....and wanting to do some great family time trips to lock in the time and memories for years to come (just got back from a kick ass trip to Hawaii).   Kids activity costs are still high but only a year or few left of that, and college costs are overwhelming but we have set aside an amount that covers all but the most expensive schools.......wish i could be like most and buy a vacation home and let my kids be overly indebted from school, but alas I am a sucker.   It's probably still not enough.   

I went back to work and while sucks, I think the original rationale holds and thus far was worth it even if i hate it and I am unhealthier than I was.....setting aside significantly more for college costs and covering a couple of spendy memorable trips was worth it.   

But not for much longer....my state on a mental and physical basis can best be compared to that guy in the Supersize Me documentary.   Sure, some will say it's not worth even in the short term but to each their own. 

TLDR....having 3 teens in a multitude of activies and are likely college bound is F'ing expensive , and for years to come.   

ETA....about 10 years ago I thought we has "Enough" which by the way was less than half of what we have now on an inflation adjusted basis.   At the time, my oldest was 7 and what we had relative to our expenses was spot on....except that our expenses grew as they grew.....everything cost more (food, medical, activities.....did I say activities....oh and trips for 5 cost a f'ck ton...always something.....oh yeah, and then we started thinking about college....WTF).   Without kids no doubt we would have been golden.....butbi love those little (now big f'ers).

The only problem is that bc I was wrong I continue to think I was wrong and I really am not sure how much we need....even though I think we are good.

So much "samesies."  I think our FI number used to be 1.4M.  Based on our spending now, that wouldn't cut it.  So I was wrong, and maybe I'm wrong that 2.0M would be enough.  Plus, there are a bunch of unknowns, like growing kids, aging parents, aging us.

Also, just got back from a kick ass trip to Hawaii!  3 weeks.  I was considering asking for a sabbatical in 2022 to go for a month, planning to quit if the sabbatical wasn't approved.  Then I got promoted and decided not to ask for the sabbatical.  I got two more raises between the promotion and now, and I think things are going well, and I'm afraid we don't have enough, so I'm just plugging away.

I really do think DH should quit, though.  He's so over that job.  It doesn't pay a ton.  He has access to a 403b and a 457, and is salary is just around the contribution limit for both, so it is definitely helping our stash, but we don't rely on his paycheck for anything because his take home pay is literally between a few dollars.  Once it went negative, so there was no direct deposit and we didn't even notice for a number of months.

Sounds like everyone here has OMY syndrome.   Including me.    I'm in the same boat as your DH.   I'm SO over my current megacorp job it isn't even funny.  Been there for 30+ years now...and I'm pretty much done, but continuing to coast.

Well I did FIRE in 2020, picked up consulting work in 2021 and have been doing that part time since. While it’s a better fit than full time work, I’m still struggling with how little time I have to do anything so I’m scaling that back. DH is still working for now. I dont think he’s interested in quitting until the kids fly the nest and may stay until 55 to lock in his tuition discount.
Despite all this I think this is the first year we will start making draws because our expenses are so high. And unpredictable which is why it’s so easy to OMY and second guess if you’ll ever have enough. Case in point-
My son made the HS golf team. (Which is really exciting because the cut line for freshman was 85 and we didn’t think he could get his score that low) We are so happy for him, but as soon as we got the new parents dinner invite it was followed with “bring your checkbook”. $125 team fees, $523 in gear purchases and $78 boosters donation plus he likely needs a new set of clubs. $x,xxx?
None of that was in the budget.
Oh well. YOLO

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 12, 2023, 07:18:48 AM

@BeanCounter , and folks, this is one of the reasons I would have such a hard time pulling the trigger with dependents who have not yet established their own independence, etc.  My situation is that it is taking much longer on that front than I had anticipated, at the cost of more than $120K above and beyond undergraduate college expenses.  529 accounts are $0.00 at this point, so everything hits 'stache dollars.  Not saying this to discourage anyone, just something to consider - that the brain of a early adult is an interesting mix of chemistry, and it can result in some paths being taken that were not necessarily in the script you wrote.

My discussions with DW of late are contemplating significantly more travel than I had originally planned for.  What I find encouraging is that, in response to this potential budget-busting news, I am finding myself tightening the budget in other areas and reducing aspirations for the retirement dwelling (current house is too large, too expensive - so we know we have to make a change there).  This, versus the alternative of saying, "Ok, I'll just work X more year(s)."

Of course, I'm not the spring chicken that many others on this thread are (I'm 54 with a target age of 56), but I am nevertheless encouraged by my response to this change.  It makes me realize that, despite having a "number" attained or having a spreadsheet that says the money should last until age 88.36752914, at some point you will just have to take a leap of faith and realize that, if you were smart enough to get into this cohort, you're probably going to be smart enough to get early headlights to any "situations" on the horizon and make adjustments accordingly (on either the expense side or the income side). 

Does this mean that I won't fall victim to OMY?   Hard to say for sure, but I'm hopeful that I won't.  Life is too short and I've already delayed this thing long enough with some personal & financial setbacks along the way.   

My 2 cents this morning (takes a sip of coffee), wishing everyone all the best in your journeys!


PS> I read others saying they just need to "coast" for X more years, and I don't know what to think.  I don't believe I am capable of "coasting" whatever that means.  Which is one of my challenges in this journey.   I'm either all in or I'm out and I'm generally not happy with myself when I'm just doing the minimum to get by.   Maybe I'm missing a chip.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on August 12, 2023, 07:31:24 AM

College expenses and health care are my main two variables that make me feel worried about retirement. At 52, I have taken 10 years off working (6 years when my youngest was born, and 4 years after cancer). I am back working part time (well it’s been more like full time the past two months) to pay for the youngest to go to college. The middle one might be taking a gap year, so who know when he will need the $. With the cost of college, I almost wonder if we wouldn’t be better off giving the kids a house vs tuition $. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 12, 2023, 09:52:00 AM

This response is mostly to @arcturus, but also to coup and anyone else in their boat. I fully admit I mat be completely out of touch, but I'm taking the plunge anyway, with good intentions, and fingers crossed.

We talk everywhere on this forum about optimization in all aspects of our lives.

Then I see parents allocating/spending massive amounts of money for their children's educations.

The default seems to be, "I'll just keep working..."

Are there not ways to minimize the cost of a college education?

I paid my own way through college and I believe it set me well on my path of fiscal responsibility and even the desire to retire early. Of course, it was in the Stone Ages, when colleges weren't nearly as expensive, but wages were pretty low then, too. I also bought and paid for my own car, without financial assistance from my parents, and took good care of it.

I'll go duck for cover now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: scottish on August 12, 2023, 10:02:03 AM

Both our kids went through a STEM program at a Canadian university (one CS, one Engineering).    Part of the program included "co-op terms", where the students are expected to work for a total of 5 academic terms.   The university has a big infrastructure to support this program so it's very functional.    This makes the program a 5 year program instead of a 4 year program, but once they started the paid work terms they were pretty financially self-sufficient.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 12, 2023, 10:16:58 AM

@Dicey you can come out now. It’s safe.
I respect that everyone’s opinion on paying for college is different but my $0.02 is that I decided a long time ago I would not it education or experiences for my children so that I/we could FIRE. It just doesn’t feel right to me. But I do think there is a happy medium somewhere. The kids can work to pay for their living expenses for example or live at home. Or maybe they are capped at 4-5 years tuition and the rest is on them or at DH’s workplace for an 80% discount.
But I would never want them to make tough educational decisions or work a lot to pay for school and then inherit $2M (each) when we die. That just doesn’t make sense to me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 12, 2023, 10:37:09 AM

Quote from: arcturus link=topic=68568.msg3171638#msg3171638 d

PS> I read others saying they just need to "coast" for X more years, and I don't know what to think.  I don't believe I am capable of "coasting" whatever that means.  Which is one of my challenges in this journey.   I'm either all in or I'm out and I'm generally not happy with myself when I'm just doing the minimum to get by.   Maybe I'm missing a chip.

I think I would be good with coasting by working 2-3 days and flexibility to be off for travel but that is not an option in my role, not that it can't be done but that megacorp doesn't know how to evolve.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 12, 2023, 10:41:02 AM

@Dicey You are indeed a brave lady and as I have no kids I of course have no opinions...;)


(Mutters under his breath... When I was a kid growing up in the East end of bombed out London we didn't even know what cars were, let alone Parents buying you one! Paying for for after school activities?..Whats the point in going to college unless its for a STEM major that pays for itself, blah, blah and key kids, stay off my lawn!)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 12, 2023, 11:00:31 AM

@Dicey you are one of the pillars of the MMM community, no need to duck for cover!  Also, I agree with much of what you say.  My experience has been a mix.  Straight into college was the right choice for two of my children, but for one, it would have certainly been better to either just take a couple gap years or to do technical school.   In retrospect, that would have been by far the better choice.

With the rising costs of college, and the crazy times we're living in (not to offend anyone, but I saw a headline of UPS drivers making $170K with benefits and I'm not saying its a great job, but that just seems a bit rich to this old-timer whose first real job was $20K/yr) I think technical schools are worth very, very serious consideration.   Would do it in a heartbeat if I had a chance to do it over.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Louise on August 12, 2023, 11:17:46 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 12, 2023, 10:16:58 AM

But I would never want them to make tough educational decisions or work a lot to pay for school and then inherit $2M (each) when we die. That just doesn’t make sense to me.

I got to go off to college and it was a wonderful experience. I'd like my child to have the same. I agree it doesn't make sense to deny that and inherit money later.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 12, 2023, 11:34:59 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 12, 2023, 09:52:00 AM

This response is mostly to @arcturus, but also to coup and anyone else in their boat. I fully admit I mat be completely out of touch, but I'm taking the plunge anyway, with good intentions, and fingers crossed.

We talk everywhere on this forum about optimization in all aspects of our lives.

Then I see parents allocating/spending massive amounts of money for their children's educations.

The default seems to be, "I'll just keep working..."

Are there not ways to minimize the cost of a college education?

I paid my own way through college and I believe it set me well on my path of fiscal responsibility and even the desire to retire early. Of course, it was in the Stone Ages, when colleges weren't nearly as expensive, but wages were pretty low then, too. I also bought and paid for my own car, without financial assistance from my parents, and took good care of it.

I'll go duck for cover now.

You're not wrong. Me and DW paid our own way with loans so I hear you.   For us, it was important to pay some or most of college. But before I FIREd the first time I started looking at college costs and came to the realization that it would be far more than I expected....not a lot of good options in my state and in reality the in state tuition here is about the same as out of state at many other schools.  We ate only paying for 4 years, no bs drifting into 5 bc only took 11 credits or didn't stay on top of stuff.   So goal was to set aside that amount minimally, and we did, then I felt it should be enhanced to allow for option of higher cost out of state schools (think power five) and some mid privates.   So we have done that now since I went back to work. Kids still think there is the lower amount set aside and anything more than that if they desire will have to come from loans for them (my general view for us and others is that 1-1.5x expected fiest year salary in loans is manageable and reasonable to get a degree and besides need something outstanding for forgiveness down the road) so we potentially have a big buffer.

As for why - simply because we did well enough that I didn't feel right about having them take out monstrous size loans that they would take many many years to pay for (even for in state) when for us it meant another 1-2 years of working.  All college funds are split between 529 and taxable accounts for flexibility and are not included in FIRE stash.

There were other reasons I went back to work....inflation and realization that travel budget was lighter than desired and now fixed that too.

So only issues left are (1) accepting uncertainty and that I can't control or mitigate every eventuality and (2) reconciling the spending views between DW and I.....she is definitely more spendy on consumption and going out with friends and I simply don't like to spend (or worry that spending will lead to failure).  There is probably a bit of feeling that I think if we both spend then we will definitely fail.   The fatFIRE budget definitely has room for spending but not enough for thoughtless "retail therapy" or "ladies that lunch" several days a week. Not that she does it all that much but it is so prevalent amongst her social group that it is hard comparatively (why can they do it and i can't) as it would be for most people....even for me lately, so many in that social group have bought their kids new cars, go on $30k multiple trips with several smaller ones in-between and seem to have no limits on spending...so if if I am feeling it then I know it's much worse for FW ( although I think I feel it partly bc she feels it so much).  And not everybody like those on this forum take comfort entirely with the fact that "yeah, but we don't have to work and they will be working forever bc they haven't saved...and their kids will be indebted from school".

First world problems, it will be worked out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 12, 2023, 11:37:08 AM

Quote from: Louise on August 12, 2023, 11:17:46 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 12, 2023, 10:16:58 AM

But I would never want them to make tough educational decisions or work a lot to pay for school and then inherit $2M (each) when we die. That just doesn’t make sense to me.

I got to go off to college and it was a wonderful experience. I'd like my child to have the same. I agree it doesn't make sense to deny that and inherit money later.

I am absolutely not suggesting that children can't(or shouldn't) "go off to college", I'm questioning the amount of $$$$$ many parents, especially mustachian ones, seem to feel obligated to spend.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 12, 2023, 11:40:02 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 12, 2023, 10:41:02 AM

@Dicey You are indeed a brave lady and as I have no kids I of course have no opinions...;)


(Mutters under his breath... When I was a kid growing up in the East end of bombed out London we didn't even know what cars were, let alone Parents buying you one! Paying for for after school activities?..Whats the point in going to college unless its for a STEM major that pays for itself, blah, blah and key kids, stay off my lawn!)

haha...I suppose that, if you were giving advice to someone on how to retire early, two of the worst financial decisions you could make  would be (1) to get divorced and (2) to have children.....both cause you to make financial decisions based on emotions.  I'm 0 for 2 on this front  :-).   But with these decisions also come benefits.  All things considered, I feel incredibly fortunate to be where I am, even at my advanced age.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on August 12, 2023, 11:55:59 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 12, 2023, 07:18:48 AM

@BeanCounter , and folks, this is one of the reasons I would have such a hard time pulling the trigger with dependents who have not yet established their own independence, etc.  My situation is that it is taking much longer on that front than I had anticipated, at the cost of more than $120K above and beyond undergraduate college expenses.  529 accounts are $0.00 at this point, so everything hits 'stache dollars.  Not saying this to discourage anyone, just something to consider - that the brain of a early adult is an interesting mix of chemistry, and it can result in some paths being taken that were not necessarily in the script you wrote.

My discussions with DW of late are contemplating significantly more travel than I had originally planned for.  What I find encouraging is that, in response to this potential budget-busting news, I am finding myself tightening the budget in other areas and reducing aspirations for the retirement dwelling (current house is too large, too expensive - so we know we have to make a change there).  This, versus the alternative of saying, "Ok, I'll just work X more year(s)."

Of course, I'm not the spring chicken that many others on this thread are (I'm 54 with a target age of 56), but I am nevertheless encouraged by my response to this change.  It makes me realize that, despite having a "number" attained or having a spreadsheet that says the money should last until age 88.36752914, at some point you will just have to take a leap of faith and realize that, if you were smart enough to get into this cohort, you're probably going to be smart enough to get early headlights to any "situations" on the horizon and make adjustments accordingly (on either the expense side or the income side). 

Does this mean that I won't fall victim to OMY?   Hard to say for sure, but I'm hopeful that I won't.  Life is too short and I've already delayed this thing long enough with some personal & financial setbacks along the way.   

My 2 cents this morning (takes a sip of coffee), wishing everyone all the best in your journeys!


PS> I read others saying they just need to "coast" for X more years, and I don't know what to think.  I don't believe I am capable of "coasting" whatever that means.  Which is one of my challenges in this journey.   I'm either all in or I'm out and I'm generally not happy with myself when I'm just doing the minimum to get by.   Maybe I'm missing a chip.

As for the first part about unexpected expenses after FIRE:  Yeah, your plans and expenses will change.  Sometimes you'll win, sometimes you'll lose.  I ended up paying for six years of private high school that was not in the plan when I retired.  But my investments are also up over 2x from the day I FIREd.  Worst case planning that most all of us do means that most of the time things will end up better than we expect.

On not coasting:  I didn't coast either.  Full bore up until my FIRE date.  It works fine to do it that way too and I think boils down to personal preference and specific individual circumstances.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 12, 2023, 12:01:57 PM

Quote from: couponvan on August 12, 2023, 07:31:24 AM

College expenses and health care are my main two variables that make me feel worried about retirement. At 52, I have taken 10 years off working (6 years when my youngest was born, and 4 years after cancer). I am back working part time (well it’s been more like full time the past two months) to pay for the youngest to go to college. The middle one might be taking a gap year, so who know when he will need the $. With the cost of college, I almost wonder if we wouldn’t be better off giving the kids a house vs tuition $.

I totally hear you @couponvan .   Not that I did things this way, but the finance geek in me says that maybe this is a chance to have a discussion with your children about the net present value of a college education and to consider alternatives, such as:  (1) technical school; (2) two years of community college and then a transfer; (3) in-state vs out of state; etc.   I think this is also what @Dicey is saying if I understand her posts correctly.

Again, offering this as advice -- not that I followed it in my situation.   But perhaps it helps you instill some mustachianism into the discussion with your children as they contemplate this next step.    I also think gap year(s) are very wise for those who don't have a clear direction.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on August 12, 2023, 12:06:41 PM

@Dicey, lots of various opinions on college.

I both am paying for my kids' college *and* paying attention to the costs *and* economizing where reasonable *and* encouraging my kids to consider the marketability of their degree or the financial viability of their plans.

I do think I made a mistake in excessively incentivizing college as a path for my kids.  I told them they could get a job, start a business, go into the military, go to technical school, or go to college after high school, but I heavily incentivized college because that was the path I took and it worked out for me.  Had I to do it over again, I would have evened out my support for the other options.  To the degree you can, I think it's better to try to help the kid figure out what options fit them best from the beginning - otherwise one can throw money and time down the drain while the kid struggles on the wrong path for a while.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 12, 2023, 12:13:09 PM

+1 on what @secondcor521 said -- probably more intelligible than my response!  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on August 12, 2023, 12:30:50 PM

Quote from: arcturus on August 12, 2023, 07:18:48 AM

PS> I read others saying they just need to "coast" for X more years, and I don't know what to think.  I don't believe I am capable of "coasting" whatever that means.  Which is one of my challenges in this journey.   I'm either all in or I'm out and I'm generally not happy with myself when I'm just doing the minimum to get by.   Maybe I'm missing a chip.

DH's manager and mentor both told him to just cut back if he was so stressed. His mentor once told me he puts a lot of that pressure on himself. One of his mentees was commenting recently about how when he first showed up on her radar, she couldn't understand how he got so much done: he is faster at many of their tasks, but he was also putting in that many hours. Even when the chronic pain started, he might take more time off, but if he was feeling well enough, he would put in the marathons until he just collapsed. With the pain, he was also getting stressed and grouchy. There were a number of fights when he stood me up because "he didn't want to let anyone down." Took a few of those to get through to him that I expect to be treated as well as anyone else in his life.

He went part time a little over a year ago and is just now learning to chip away at some of his work, rather than working all 20 hours in one or two days and then crashing for two or three days. As a matter of fact, his first two weeks "part time" were 60 hour weeks.

He doesn't really need to work at this point. I call it coast FIRE sometimes, but we are just coasting into chubbier and chubbier FIRE, rather than aiming for a goal. We aren't quite ready to move on from where we are. There is so much to do here and we are both working on increasing our strength and stamina to pursue the next stage.  He figures he might as well pad the kitty while we get through this stage. I think it has been good for him to figure out some sense of balance..but then, he hasn't even been this balanced for a whole month just yet...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 12, 2023, 12:35:13 PM

Quote from: arcturus on August 12, 2023, 11:00:31 AM

@Dicey you are one of the pillars of the MMM community, no need to duck for cover!  Also, I agree with much of what you say.  My experience has been a mix.  Straight into college was the right choice for two of my children, but for one, it would have certainly been better to either just take a couple gap years or to do technical school.   In retrospect, that would have been by far the better choice.

With the rising costs of college, and the crazy times we're living in (not to offend anyone, but I saw a headline of UPS drivers making $170K with benefits and I'm not saying its a great job, but that just seems a bit rich to this old-timer whose first real job was $20K/yr) I think technical schools are worth very, very serious consideration.   Would do it in a heartbeat if I had a chance to do it over.

DS is at a technical school and the value is fantastic.  Learning real world applicable electrical power and controls skills and bombarded with 100k+ job offers, all while paying roughly $5k per semester.  But of course, this all all hindsight.  When he was born, we diligently seeded a 529 and added $400/mo until it hit $100k (thanks rising markets, basically doubling what we contributed).  Even better yet, the left over 529 money can go in to a Roth IRA for him (up to $35k)...

Even having recent experience with everything working out better than expected, I don't know what kind of advice I'd give other people!  I made good decisions 20 years ago and just followed through (I still personally think building up a 529 to something like 80% of a good college education is a good idea) then had a lot of lucky breaks at the end (my son wanting to get a technical degree, Congress changing the 529 rules, etc.)

I do think it is limiting and unfair to expect kids to figure all of life out on their own, without any parental foresight, especially if it is because you are putting your FIRE first and they have to take out massive loans because they don't qualify for aid due to family income.  It is also unfair that college tuition has risen faster than inflation and post-HS degrees are a necessity for many good jobs.   But opinions are like... :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on August 12, 2023, 12:51:21 PM

Quote from: ixtap on August 12, 2023, 12:30:50 PM

Quote from: arcturus on August 12, 2023, 07:18:48 AM

PS> I read others saying they just need to "coast" for X more years, and I don't know what to think.  I don't believe I am capable of "coasting" whatever that means.  Which is one of my challenges in this journey.   I'm either all in or I'm out and I'm generally not happy with myself when I'm just doing the minimum to get by.   Maybe I'm missing a chip.

DH's manager and mentor both told him to just cut back if he was so stressed. His mentor once told me he puts a lot of that pressure on himself. One of his mentees was commenting recently about how when he first showed up on her radar, she couldn't understand how he got so much done: he is faster at many of their tasks, but he was also putting in that many hours. Even when the chronic pain started, he might take more time off, but if he was feeling well enough, he would put in the marathons until he just collapsed. With the pain, he was also getting stressed and grouchy. There were a number of fights when he stood me up because "he didn't want to let anyone down." Took a few of those to get through to him that I expect to be treated as well as anyone else in his life.

He went part time a little over a year ago and is just now learning to chip away at some of his work, rather than working all 20 hours in one or two days and then crashing for two or three days. As a matter of fact, his first two weeks "part time" were 60 hour weeks.

He doesn't really need to work at this point. I call it coast FIRE sometimes, but we are just coasting into chubbier and chubbier FIRE, rather than aiming for a goal. We aren't quite ready to move on from where we are. There is so much to do here and we are both working on increasing our strength and stamina to pursue the next stage.  He figures he might as well pad the kitty while we get through this stage. I think it has been good for him to figure out some sense of balance..but then, he hasn't even been this balanced for a whole month just yet...

Wow, this is hitting a bit close to home for me, sans the chronic pain.  Otherwise, I sound a bit like your DH, maybe prior to lessons learned (?).  I would like to think I've gotten a bit better at time balance over the past year or so, but its more than just the hours for me, it's just that it is constantly there in the background of everything I do.  Thank you for your post @ixtap.  Time for me to go away for some introspection I think.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 12, 2023, 05:23:38 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 12, 2023, 12:35:13 PM

--SNIP--
I do think it is limiting and unfair to expect kids to figure all of life out on their own, without any parental foresight, especially if it is because you are putting your FIRE first and they have to take out massive loans because they don't qualify for aid due to family income.  It is also unfair that college tuition has risen faster than inflation and post-HS degrees are a necessity for many good jobs.   But opinions are like... :)

I went to college before Reaganomics.  It didn't used to be like this.  It doesn't have to be like this.  Education is supposed to be an investment in the country's future not an investment vehicle for bankers to rob students.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 12, 2023, 05:59:03 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 12, 2023, 12:35:13 PM

Quote from: arcturus on August 12, 2023, 11:00:31 AM

@Dicey you are one of the pillars of the MMM community, no need to duck for cover!  Also, I agree with much of what you say.  My experience has been a mix.  Straight into college was the right choice for two of my children, but for one, it would have certainly been better to either just take a couple gap years or to do technical school.   In retrospect, that would have been by far the better choice.

With the rising costs of college, and the crazy times we're living in (not to offend anyone, but I saw a headline of UPS drivers making $170K with benefits and I'm not saying its a great job, but that just seems a bit rich to this old-timer whose first real job was $20K/yr) I think technical schools are worth very, very serious consideration.   Would do it in a heartbeat if I had a chance to do it over.

DS is at a technical school and the value is fantastic.  Learning real world applicable electrical power and controls skills and bombarded with 100k+ job offers, all while paying roughly $5k per semester.  But of course, this all all hindsight.  When he was born, we diligently seeded a 529 and added $400/mo until it hit $100k (thanks rising markets, basically doubling what we contributed).  Even better yet, the left over 529 money can go in to a Roth IRA for him (up to $35k)...

Even having recent experience with everything working out better than expected, I don't know what kind of advice I'd give other people!  I made good decisions 20 years ago and just followed through (I still personally think building up a 529 to something like 80% of a good college education is a good idea) then had a lot of lucky breaks at the end (my son wanting to get a technical degree, Congress changing the 529 rules, etc.)

I do think it is limiting and unfair to expect kids to figure all of life out on their own, without any parental foresight, especially if it is because you are putting your FIRE first and they have to take out massive loans because they don't qualify for aid due to family income.  It is also unfair that college tuition has risen faster than inflation and post-HS degrees are a necessity for many good jobs.   But opinions are like... :)

I hear you. Its funny because even though I get bombarded with job offers for my engineering skills I find I am equally sought after for just about all of my hands on skills.

I had a friend come round the other day who wanted some ornamental gates welded. He is a contractor and this was for a customer of his. He wasn't confident to make nice pretty welds and as this was going to be on display they had to look good.

OK so I set up my TIG welder as this makes the prettiest welds and went to work.. Took 20 minutes.

I helped him load up and he thrust $200 into my hand.. I protested loudly as this was a simple favour between friends. He said.. "I was quoted $500 for this work and there is no way I could make it look that good.. Besides, you should see what I'm charging for this!"

He also told me he had lots of people he knows who wants this kind of stuff done!.. Naturally I reminded him I don't need the work and I certainly don't need the liability.

Bottom line is I think the average person is a lot more helpless than they were in decades past and skilled trades are benefitting from that fact. So $5k a semester for a two year technical qualification is a bargain.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 12, 2023, 10:45:56 PM

My nephew was building complicated things when he was a toddler. He went to trade school at the local junior college to become a contractor. He is now a GC with his own firm. His house needed extensive renovation and regrading before he could live in it. He had it paid off before he moved in. He buys and sells trucks for a profit, so he is always ready to be a cash buyer when he finds a deal. He has no debt of any kind and is far ahead of his peers at age 30.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 13, 2023, 08:45:55 AM

Quote from: arcturus on August 12, 2023, 07:18:48 AM

@BeanCounter , and folks, this is one of the reasons I would have such a hard time pulling the trigger with dependents who have not yet established their own independence, etc.  My situation is that it is taking much longer on that front than I had anticipated, at the cost of more than $120K above and beyond undergraduate college expenses.  529 accounts are $0.00 at this point, so everything hits 'stache dollars.  Not saying this to discourage anyone, just something to consider - that the brain of a early adult is an interesting mix of chemistry, and it can result in some paths being taken that were not necessarily in the script you wrote.

My discussions with DW of late are contemplating significantly more travel than I had originally planned for.  What I find encouraging is that, in response to this potential budget-busting news, I am finding myself tightening the budget in other areas and reducing aspirations for the retirement dwelling (current house is too large, too expensive - so we know we have to make a change there).  This, versus the alternative of saying, "Ok, I'll just work X more year(s)."

Of course, I'm not the spring chicken that many others on this thread are (I'm 54 with a target age of 56), but I am nevertheless encouraged by my response to this change.  It makes me realize that, despite having a "number" attained or having a spreadsheet that says the money should last until age 88.36752914, at some point you will just have to take a leap of faith and realize that, if you were smart enough to get into this cohort, you're probably going to be smart enough to get early headlights to any "situations" on the horizon and make adjustments accordingly (on either the expense side or the income side). 

Does this mean that I won't fall victim to OMY?   Hard to say for sure, but I'm hopeful that I won't.  Life is too short and I've already delayed this thing long enough with some personal & financial setbacks along the way.   

My 2 cents this morning (takes a sip of coffee), wishing everyone all the best in your journeys!


PS> I read others saying they just need to "coast" for X more years, and I don't know what to think.  I don't believe I am capable of "coasting" whatever that means.  Which is one of my challenges in this journey.   I'm either all in or I'm out and I'm generally not happy with myself when I'm just doing the minimum to get by.   Maybe I'm missing a chip.

For me coasting is in my job, some things are very important.  I still am all in on the very important.  Some things, management says are important, but by their actions (priorities) they are clearly not important.  So I don’t worry about the unimportant things no matter how much they are talked about.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 13, 2023, 09:15:01 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 12, 2023, 10:45:56 PM

My nephew was building complicated things when he was a toddler. He went to trade school at the local junior college to become a contractor. He is now a GC with his own firm. His house needed extensive renovation and regrading before he could live in it. He had it paid off before he moved in. He buys and sells trucks for a profit, so he is always ready to be a cash buyer when he finds a deal. He has no debt of any kind and is far ahead of his peers at age 30.

Exactly! There is more than one way up the greasy pole of success. I think if I had my time now I probably woudn't go to college unless I could be sure the returns were there. Not wishing to offend, but I just can't see the point in spending $80k on a social studies degree just to end up flipping hamburgers! I know there is such a thing as the college experience which some find valuable. For me doing engineering my experience was to be so freaking busy as to not have too much time to enjoy it. Certainly my sex life in college was non existent..:)

It seems as time goes on the average person is becoming more and more helpless (calling a tow truck for a flat tire etc) so in theory hands on skills will continue to be valuable. Just today I saw a dealer quoted $1000 to change a water pump on the same car I have.... WTF?.. I did the same job a few months back, took me 1.5 hours!

Having said that, its hard to know what the future holds, its could be the market for trade skills takes a dump and then the only way to get ahead is to have a degree.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on August 13, 2023, 10:16:29 AM

In the same vein as having some "skills", I don't think I'm very handy. FIRED now, worked a desk tech job before I retired.

But... we bought a fancy fridge for our outside area and it conked out (I think due to a little flooding we had) right after the manufacturer's warranty expired. People wanted $200 just to come out to look at it, never mind repair it. So, I'm like... I'm retired and think I'm fairly smart, how hard can it be to fix a fucking fridge?

Bought a multimeter, learned about compressors (and thermistor, capacitors, start relays etc. that help it), and how the fridge circuit boards worked. Took the fridge apart, tested various parts. Bought a soldering kit once I realized it was the main circuit board that actually had a bunch of corrosion. It took me a month (mostly waiting for parts) but I fixed it. Total cost < $150 including all the new tools and parts.

At this point I'm not willing to buy new or hire a repair person for any appliance. Fuck these prices man, I don't care how much money I have. I have time and I can learn. I hate the ripoff factor more than anything.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 13, 2023, 11:08:45 AM

Quote from: dividendman on August 13, 2023, 10:16:29 AM

In the same vein as having some "skills", I don't think I'm very handy. FIRED now, worked a desk tech job before I retired.

But... we bought a fancy fridge for our outside area and it conked out (I think due to a little flooding we had) right after the manufacturer's warranty expired. People wanted $200 just to come out to look at it, never mind repair it. So, I'm like... I'm retired and think I'm fairly smart, how hard can it be to fix a fucking fridge?

Bought a multimeter, learned about compressors (and thermistor, capacitors, start relays etc. that help it), and how the fridge circuit boards worked. Took the fridge apart, tested various parts. Bought a soldering kit once I realized it was the main circuit board that actually had a bunch of corrosion. It took me a month (mostly waiting for parts) but I fixed it. Total cost < $150 including all the new tools and parts.

At this point I'm not willing to buy new or hire a repair person for any appliance. Fuck these prices man, I don't care how much money I have. I have time and I can learn. I hate the ripoff factor more than anything.

Better yet, now you can go charge your neighbors $200/hr to fix their fridges LOL!

That's exactly the kind of work my son is learning and he loves it.  It amazes me how different we are, he fiddles soldering circuit boards and playing with multimeters, hacking together handheld gaming devices and PLC gizmos...  he is actually a lot like my father in law...

My daughter just got accepted today to a more traditional 4 year college.  So yeah, it's so unpredictable and, as a parent, you are supposed to make plans decades before college as if you know anything about how much it is going to cost!

Quote from: pecunia on August 12, 2023, 05:23:38 PM

I went to college before Reaganomics.  It didn't used to be like this.  It doesn't have to be like this.  Education is supposed to be an investment in the country's future not an investment vehicle for bankers to rob students.

Many other countries heavily subsidize or make college outright free.  It is a gift to the country to have an educated, skilled workforce...  it makes no sense the way capitalism has turned college in to a profitable enterprise.  Somehow it still manages to work, a US college degree is highly regarded globally, but the price colleges can demand is outrageous.  I'm waiting for something to break at some point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 13, 2023, 11:10:37 AM

Quote from: dividendman on August 13, 2023, 10:16:29 AM

In the same vein as having some "skills", I don't think I'm very handy. FIRED now, worked a desk tech job before I retired.

But... we bought a fancy fridge for our outside area and it conked out (I think due to a little flooding we had) right after the manufacturer's warranty expired. People wanted $200 just to come out to look at it, never mind repair it. So, I'm like... I'm retired and think I'm fairly smart, how hard can it be to fix a fucking fridge?

Bought a multimeter, learned about compressors (and thermistor, capacitors, start relays etc. that help it), and how the fridge circuit boards worked. Took the fridge apart, tested various parts. Bought a soldering kit once I realized it was the main circuit board that actually had a bunch of corrosion. It took me a month (mostly waiting for parts) but I fixed it. Total cost < $150 including all the new tools and parts.

At this point I'm not willing to buy new or hire a repair person for any appliance. Fuck these prices man, I don't care how much money I have. I have time and I can learn. I hate the ripoff factor more than anything.

To play the devil's advocate, if you had paid yourself, what would it have cost? 

Just the same, I'm like you.  Lightning or something zapped my fridge last month.  After studying several You Tube videos and downloading a few diagrams I fixed it myself.  Besides the savings, I felt great satisfaction when that fridge started up.

When I was a kid I had a conversation with my dad.  We didn't have a lot of money so we fixed everything ourselves.  I remember discussing fixing some old appliance at the time and asking my dad why we just didn't buy a new one.  My father replied, "Anyone can buy new."  It's taken years for that to truly make sense to me.  This was long before this "recycling" was considered good for the Earth.  Not everyone can fix this stuff.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on August 13, 2023, 11:23:14 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 13, 2023, 11:10:37 AM

Quote from: dividendman on August 13, 2023, 10:16:29 AM

In the same vein as having some "skills", I don't think I'm very handy. FIRED now, worked a desk tech job before I retired.

But... we bought a fancy fridge for our outside area and it conked out (I think due to a little flooding we had) right after the manufacturer's warranty expired. People wanted $200 just to come out to look at it, never mind repair it. So, I'm like... I'm retired and think I'm fairly smart, how hard can it be to fix a fucking fridge?

Bought a multimeter, learned about compressors (and thermistor, capacitors, start relays etc. that help it), and how the fridge circuit boards worked. Took the fridge apart, tested various parts. Bought a soldering kit once I realized it was the main circuit board that actually had a bunch of corrosion. It took me a month (mostly waiting for parts) but I fixed it. Total cost < $150 including all the new tools and parts.

At this point I'm not willing to buy new or hire a repair person for any appliance. Fuck these prices man, I don't care how much money I have. I have time and I can learn. I hate the ripoff factor more than anything.

To play the devil's advocate, if you had paid yourself, what would it have cost? 

Just the same, I'm like you.  Lightning or something zapped my fridge last month.  After studying several You Tube videos and downloading a few diagrams I fixed it myself.  Besides the savings, I felt great satisfaction when that fridge started up.

When I was a kid I had a conversation with my dad.  We didn't have a lot of money so we fixed everything ourselves.  I remember discussing fixing some old appliance at the time and asking my dad why we just didn't buy a new one.  My father replied, "Anyone can buy new."  It's taken years for that to truly make sense to me.  This was long before this "recycling" was considered good for the Earth.  Not everyone can fix this stuff.

Yeah it felt great when the compressor started and the fridge cooled. If I paid myself what I made hourly at my peak... it would have been in the thousands... haha. But I don't make that now obviously. Maybe I'm getting old but I'm sick of all the rip offs. Restaurants are almost totally out now too since I retired. I feel like the prices have gone up and the service/quality has gone down. I can cook food better than all of these restaurants, have the time to do it, it's not a ripoff, and it's generally healthier.

YouTube is the best for all of this. Cooking, repairs, etc. So much info especially how two make great gourmet meals! The best part is I'm enjoying cooking more and more, and now that I have that one repair under my belt I'm looking forward to the next one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 13, 2023, 04:40:05 PM

As the proud owner of a political science degree.  I’m obviously not flipping burgers.  I had some STEM classes, but that’s it.  If I were to go back and do it again, I’d likely study Geology, which would probably = less in salary than my Law enforcement job, that has nothing to do with my degree.  I’m a firm believer that going to University is not trade school.  You don’t have to necessarily study your career but the schooling does give you skills that help you in the career you end up in.

On the other hand since my parent paid for most of my schooling (minus books and incidentals like Friday pizza), I made sure I graduated in 4 years, even though I fell in love with Geology as a Junior.  No changing majors for me, I wouldn’t have graduated in 4 years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 13, 2023, 06:19:31 PM

Quote from: dividendman on August 13, 2023, 11:23:14 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 13, 2023, 11:10:37 AM

Quote from: dividendman on August 13, 2023, 10:16:29 AM

In the same vein as having some "skills", I don't think I'm very handy. FIRED now, worked a desk tech job before I retired.

But... we bought a fancy fridge for our outside area and it conked out (I think due to a little flooding we had) right after the manufacturer's warranty expired. People wanted $200 just to come out to look at it, never mind repair it. So, I'm like... I'm retired and think I'm fairly smart, how hard can it be to fix a fucking fridge?

Bought a multimeter, learned about compressors (and thermistor, capacitors, start relays etc. that help it), and how the fridge circuit boards worked. Took the fridge apart, tested various parts. Bought a soldering kit once I realized it was the main circuit board that actually had a bunch of corrosion. It took me a month (mostly waiting for parts) but I fixed it. Total cost < $150 including all the new tools and parts.

At this point I'm not willing to buy new or hire a repair person for any appliance. Fuck these prices man, I don't care how much money I have. I have time and I can learn. I hate the ripoff factor more than anything.

To play the devil's advocate, if you had paid yourself, what would it have cost? 

Just the same, I'm like you.  Lightning or something zapped my fridge last month.  After studying several You Tube videos and downloading a few diagrams I fixed it myself.  Besides the savings, I felt great satisfaction when that fridge started up.

When I was a kid I had a conversation with my dad.  We didn't have a lot of money so we fixed everything ourselves.  I remember discussing fixing some old appliance at the time and asking my dad why we just didn't buy a new one.  My father replied, "Anyone can buy new."  It's taken years for that to truly make sense to me.  This was long before this "recycling" was considered good for the Earth.  Not everyone can fix this stuff.

Yeah it felt great when the compressor started and the fridge cooled. If I paid myself what I made hourly at my peak... it would have been in the thousands... haha. But I don't make that now obviously. Maybe I'm getting old but I'm sick of all the rip offs. Restaurants are almost totally out now too since I retired. I feel like the prices have gone up and the service/quality has gone down. I can cook food better than all of these restaurants, have the time to do it, it's not a ripoff, and it's generally healthier.

YouTube is the best for all of this. Cooking, repairs, etc. So much info especially how two make great gourmet meals! The best part is I'm enjoying cooking more and more, and now that I have that one repair under my belt I'm looking forward to the next one.

Not sure if folks here have heard of the EU's "right to repair" laws, but some bad actors (Apple) intentionally make their products impossible for consumers to repair.  This trend is both terrible for consumers and for the environment.  But there is some good news on the horizon (by 2027 hopefully) - EU Just Changed Smartphones Forever (https://youtu.be/Fo-k-Qosy8A)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 13, 2023, 06:31:00 PM

When I left high school I had no idea what I wanted to do, other than I knew I didnt want to be a lawyer as it seemed exceptionally boring work. So I headed off to university to get a business degree that I felt would assist my employability wherever I might end up. Engineering seemed like to much effort.

My parents didnt have money to fund my education, and I liked the freedom of my car and travel, so I had to get a job straight out of high school. I did some labouring work, washed busees, and then got a junior desk job at the local Council. I then obtained my undergrade degree at night school and continued on to post grad, also at night school. it ended up being 8 years of part time study all up.

I have no regrets in the time and financial commitment I made to my studies in my 20s.

I am pretty certain I would not have earned anywhere near what I earned over my career if I had taken up a trade. With 2 left thumbs I would not have been much or a tradesman.

I guess I would have quickly had to become a business owner, as that is probably all I could have done effectively to earn a decent income. Definitely this could have been a more interesting path, but I have been happy to have taken the safe route looking back.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 13, 2023, 07:27:17 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 13, 2023, 06:31:00 PM

When I left high school I had no idea what I wanted to do, other than I knew I didnt want to be a lawyer as it seemed exceptionally boring work. So I headed off to university to get a business degree that I felt would assist my employability wherever I might end up. Engineering seemed like to much effort.

My parents didnt have money to fund my education, and I liked the freedom of my car and travel, so I had to get a job straight out of high school. I did some labouring work, washed busees, and then got a junior desk job at the local Council. I then obtained my undergrade degree at night school and continued on to post grad, also at night school. it ended up being 8 years of part time study all up.

I have no regrets in the time and financial commitment I made to my studies in my 20s.

I am pretty certain I would not have earned anywhere near what I earned over my career if I had taken up a trade. With 2 left thumbs I would not have been much or a tradesman.

I guess I would have quickly had to become a business owner, as that is probably all I could have done effectively to earn a decent income. Definitely this could have been a more interesting path, but I have been happy to have taken the safe route looking back.

Probably made the right choice.  Quite a number of times, I've seen companies strip themselves of dozens of engineers.  I've not heard of accountants or similar bean counters laid off.  You were wise to get your hands close to the purse strings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 14, 2023, 04:06:52 AM

Since we are talking about careers: many of my ancestors were either engineers or professors of mathematics (my dad, who was an accountant, was a bit of an outlier 😀). To no one's surprise, I started playing around with electronics from an early age. I was building logic circuits with relays by the time I was 13. I used to read a lot of science fiction and decided that I wanted to work in AI. Big influences were the classic The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein and the nonfiction book Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder.

Spent much of my college years programming everything from a PDP-8 to our university mainframe. Neural networks sounded like fun so I dug into it and did my PhD in machine learning. But when it came to look for a job, I discovered that almost nobody outside a small circle in academia knew what a neural network was. So I worked in other areas of computer science until machine learning took off which was around 2009. So I owe my fortune to knowing a bit of linear algebra and calculus 😀

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 14, 2023, 06:59:57 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 14, 2023, 04:06:52 AM

Since we are talking about careers: many of my ancestors were either engineers or professors of mathematics (my dad, who was an accountant, was a bit of an outlier 😀). To no one's surprise, I started playing around with electronics from an early age. I was building logic circuits with relays by the time I was 13. I used to read a lot of science fiction and decided that I wanted to work in AI. Big influences were the classic The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein and the nonfiction book Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder.

Spent much of my college years programming everything from a PDP-8 to our university mainframe. Neural networks sounded like fun so I dug into it and did my PhD in machine learning. But when it came to look for a job, I discovered that almost nobody outside a small circle in academia knew what a neural network was. So I worked in other areas of computer science until machine learning took off which was around 2009. So I owe my fortune to knowing a bit of linear algebra and calculus 😀

All of that was a while ago.  Sounds like the punch card days.  PDP-8 was released in the mid sixties.  Those minicomputer companies vanished at the end of the last century.  You got into a good thing at the right time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 14, 2023, 08:34:31 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 14, 2023, 06:59:57 AM

All of that was a while ago.  Sounds like the punch card days.  PDP-8 was released in the mid sixties.  Those minicomputer companies vanished at the end of the last century.  You got into a good thing at the right time.

That PDP-8 was already ancient even in the 1980s when I was in college! I wrote some programs on it to help out a friend who was doing a project that used the PDP-8 as an instrument controller (mass spectrometer I think).

Even as late as the 80s, CS was not a obvious slam dunk choice as a career. You could made a decent living but not crazy money. That started only after the dot-com bubble.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: catccc on August 14, 2023, 10:53:56 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 12, 2023, 09:52:00 AM

This response is mostly to @arcturus, but also to coup and anyone else in their boat. I fully admit I mat be completely out of touch, but I'm taking the plunge anyway, with good intentions, and fingers crossed.

We talk everywhere on this forum about optimization in all aspects of our lives.

Then I see parents allocating/spending massive amounts of money for their children's educations.

The default seems to be, "I'll just keep working..."

Are there not ways to minimize the cost of a college education?

I paid my own way through college and I believe it set me well on my path of fiscal responsibility and even the desire to retire early. Of course, it was in the Stone Ages, when colleges weren't nearly as expensive, but wages were pretty low then, too. I also bought and paid for my own car, without financial assistance from my parents, and took good care of it.

I'll go duck for cover now.

Quote from: Dicey on August 12, 2023, 11:37:08 AM

I am absolutely not suggesting that children can't(or shouldn't) "go off to college", I'm questioning the amount of $$$$$ many parents, especially mustachian ones, seem to feel obligated to spend.

I paid my own way through college, too, but that was 2003.  I worked 3 jobs and took the initiative to negotiate a needs based athletic scholarship from administration for a club sport.  (I can't join the team; I'll have to spend my time working unless I get $x,xxx!)  Yes, good on us... 

But I do think this is "completely out of touch."  Here's why:

It's very well known that college costs have soared.  It's extraordinary and excessive, multiple times over the rate of inflation.  So it really doesn't matter when you say "but wages were pretty low then."  Annual inflation from 2010 to 2022 was under 3%.  In that same time period, college tuition increased ~12% annually. Compounded, that's a huge difference, and that's just the last 12 years. It isn't getting better, and my kids are not slated to reach college age for another 4 & 6 years.  This is why we need to save $$$$$ instead of just $$.  Additionally, the value of a college degree has fallen.  You are expected to have one for most jobs; it's the new high school degree.  In 1978, 28% of jobs required a college degree.  Today, 75% of new jobs require one. 

It's a double whammy that older generations sometimes can't seem to wrap their head around.

Sure, there are definitely other options to have a good career without a college degree.  Trades are a great option, they are under demanded careers and over demanded services.  But not every kid wants to be a plumber, electrician, or other tradesperson.  You can only guess at what their education needs will be and plan accordingly.  Less than 20% of high school grads go to trade schools, over 60% of them attend college.  So we know the odds and the logical thing to do is save for college.

There are a lot of parents today that were saddled with the poor fortune of relying on student loans due to lack of savings to address outrageous tuition bills. They then struggle to get out from under student loans.  Those that are able to pay off their loans and have the means are often very dedicated to avoiding such situations once they have their own children. 

I'm not here to make my kids' lives easy, but college tuition is a monster these days, and until there is systemic change to rectify this, many of us feel it is a priority to address with the means we have.  Especially in the FIRE community.  I think another poster mentioned that it doesn't sit well with them to aim for FIRE and not strongly address the education needs of their child.  To tell my kid I can't help more with tuition because I got tired of working when I was 43 doesn't feel right to me.  Since I don't set tuition rates, that means saving $$$$$.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 14, 2023, 01:24:29 PM

Quote from: catccc on August 14, 2023, 10:53:56 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 12, 2023, 09:52:00 AM

This response is mostly to @arcturus, but also to coup and anyone else in their boat. I fully admit I mat be completely out of touch, but I'm taking the plunge anyway, with good intentions, and fingers crossed.

We talk everywhere on this forum about optimization in all aspects of our lives.

Then I see parents allocating/spending massive amounts of money for their children's educations.

The default seems to be, "I'll just keep working..."

Are there not ways to minimize the cost of a college education?

I paid my own way through college and I believe it set me well on my path of fiscal responsibility and even the desire to retire early. Of course, it was in the Stone Ages, when colleges weren't nearly as expensive, but wages were pretty low then, too. I also bought and paid for my own car, without financial assistance from my parents, and took good care of it.

I'll go duck for cover now.

Quote from: Dicey on August 12, 2023, 11:37:08 AM

I am absolutely not suggesting that children can't(or shouldn't) "go off to college", I'm questioning the amount of $$$$$ many parents, especially mustachian ones, seem to feel obligated to spend.

I paid my own way through college, too, but that was 2003.  I worked 3 jobs and took the initiative to negotiate a needs based athletic scholarship from administration for a club sport.  (I can't join the team; I'll have to spend my time working unless I get $x,xxx!)  Yes, good on us... 

But I do think this is "completely out of touch."  Here's why:

It's very well known that college costs have soared.  It's extraordinary and excessive, multiple times over the rate of inflation.  So it really doesn't matter when you say "but wages were pretty low then."  Annual inflation from 2010 to 2022 was under 3%.  In that same time period, college tuition increased ~12% annually. Compounded, that's a huge difference, and that's just the last 12 years. It isn't getting better, and my kids are not slated to reach college age for another 4 & 6 years.  This is why we need to save $$$$$ instead of just $$.  Additionally, the value of a college degree has fallen.  You are expected to have one for most jobs; it's the new high school degree.  In 1978, 28% of jobs required a college degree.  Today, 75% of new jobs require one. 

It's a double whammy that older generations sometimes can't seem to wrap their head around.

Sure, there are definitely other options to have a good career without a college degree.  Trades are a great option, they are under demanded careers and over demanded services.  But not every kid wants to be a plumber, electrician, or other tradesperson.  You can only guess at what their education needs will be and plan accordingly.  Less than 20% of high school grads go to trade schools, over 60% of them attend college.  So we know the odds and the logical thing to do is save for college.

There are a lot of parents today that were saddled with the poor fortune of relying on student loans due to lack of savings to address outrageous tuition bills. They then struggle to get out from under student loans.  Those that are able to pay off their loans and have the means are often very dedicated to avoiding such situations once they have their own children. 

I'm not here to make my kids' lives easy, but college tuition is a monster these days, and until there is systemic change to rectify this, many of us feel it is a priority to address with the means we have.  Especially in the FIRE community.  I think another poster mentioned that it doesn't sit well with them to aim for FIRE and not strongly address the education needs of their child.  To tell my kid I can't help more with tuition because I got tired of working when I was 43 doesn't feel right to me.  Since I don't set tuition rates, that means saving $$$$$.

I agree with you...the "I paid my own way through college" argument many older folks bring up is completely out of touch these days.

I'm old too ( GenX'er ), but I'm seeing the struggle firsthand as my kids are now in the midst of college and will both be finishing up this year ( thank god ).   My wife and I were able to pay our own way through college with just a simple summer job...and very modest contributions from our parents.  No loans at all.   And we attended a state university.   This was in the early 1990s.

This just isn't anywhere near attainable anymore.  Our kids attend the same state university that we did.  Unfortunately, summer jobs are literally a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of college.  Summer jobs allow our kids to pay a portion of their living expenses, and part of their rent, but that's about it.   Fortunately, we set up 529 accounts when they were young in anticipation, but the amount we have in there still doesn't cover everything....not even close.  And like I said...they attend a state university...not some even more obscenely priced private college.

It really is sad and ridiculous.   Add predatory student loan rates into the mix, and you have a recipe for disaster, as we are seeing.  Scholarships are not keeping up with inflation either...and this is very important.  Many kids get 'scholarships', but they also end up being a drop in the bucket.   Fortunately, we should be able to get our kids out with minimal loans, but it certainly is costing us more than I calculated all those years ago.

I should add that my daughter is getting her masters degree this year and this will likely be the end of her college career.  She intends to be a therapist in a youth social work type of job.  Yes, she knows she won't get paid all that much, but it is her calling.  The unfortunate thing is that you DO need at least a masters degree for nearly all of the roles she is interested in.

My son is on the STEM path...currently finishing up a double major in Physics and Astrophysics, and is doing quite well.   He is on the graduate school ( PhD program ) path.  The nice thing about graduate school in many of the basic sciences is that you can often get it paid for...plus stipend.  The caveat is that you have to do very well during your undergrad career though...and quite a few don't make it.  We are hoping he can land a grad school gig.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 14, 2023, 01:48:27 PM

So,.......college costs a lot more,........kids can't get jobs that pay enough to pay the tuition,........banks charge high interest rates to these kids to go to school & I guess even bankruptcy won't get them out of it.    But the system certainly isn't rigged it's just a natural progression of a Capitalist economy,........right.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on August 14, 2023, 02:01:21 PM

On the college side, it is out of touch. What was reasonable when I went to college (1994) is totally unreasonable now for the reasons already listed above (cost of college, as the primary starting point) & our income/assets (and, I'm guessing most MMM folks) is completely different than my parents income. As a result, I received a tremendous amount of financial aid, and my kids will receive zero need based aid. It would be pretty selfish (in our situation) to not save for college, knowing our income & assets will penalize our kids in the financial aid process. Obviously, in our situation, because everyone has their own unique financial priorities to worry about.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on August 14, 2023, 02:06:32 PM

Quote from: arcturus on August 12, 2023, 11:40:02 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 12, 2023, 10:41:02 AM

@Dicey You are indeed a brave lady and as I have no kids I of course have no opinions...;)


(Mutters under his breath... When I was a kid growing up in the East end of bombed out London we didn't even know what cars were, let alone Parents buying you one! Paying for for after school activities?..Whats the point in going to college unless its for a STEM major that pays for itself, blah, blah and key kids, stay off my lawn!)

haha...I suppose that, if you were giving advice to someone on how to retire early, two of the worst financial decisions you could make  would be (1) to get divorced and (2) to have children.....both cause you to make financial decisions based on emotions.  I'm 0 for 2 on this front  :-).   But with these decisions also come benefits.  All things considered, I feel incredibly fortunate to be where I am, even at my advanced age.

0 for 2 on those here as well.  Fortunately my children who were interested in college both decided on a State school with a good reputation and affordable price tag.  They did need to take out loans, but one child has paid them off already and the other has paid off the higher interest private ones already as well. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on August 14, 2023, 03:36:57 PM

I really don't have a clue as to what my parents would have decided to pay for versus requiring me to take out loans for when I was applying in 1976, had I not wound up going to a super-cheap (albeit not a commuter school for me) college that probably cost  (all-in) the equivalent of $20-25k/yr in 2023 dollars that they paid for.  In any event I was the beneficiary of my parents' generosity and while I did have some college jobs and take out some minor loans, I definitely did not 'pay my way' nor did I expect our daughter to do so.  My ex, on the other hand, got very little financial (they let her live in their home while she got her AA) and less emotional support from her family - she was the very first in her family to go to college at all (and to her great credit, went on to get various professional degrees as well as a Ph.D.!) and definitely 'paid her own way.'

My ex and I took the following approach with our daughter: We would be willing to pay up all costs, including on-campus residence, at any state college where the tuition was under $20k - this was when Michigan and perhaps other states had started soaking out-of-staters with ~$45k/yr tuition for undergrad, but many other states had more reasonable surcharges.  We'd also pay if she went to an elite institution that was arguably 'worth it' in future prospects, either academic or for earnings potential.

As things transpired she was not particularly academically inclined in high school...after graduating HS she started at a commuter college, then transferred to a state college where she lived on-campus, became more focused in her studies, and graduated... without loans. Our costs started lower the first year thanks to commuting, and then went up to about $20k/yr (around $30k/yr now, based on what I see on the SUNY webpage).

As far as the 'I paid MY way through college' thing goes...

We all have been benefitting from lower tax rates in our working lives versus what were extant in our childhood - for example when i went to college in 1976,  the marginal tax rate was 28% for a MFJ income of $18,500 (equivalent to $100,000 today).  Now, the marginal tax rate is 22% for MFJ income of $100,000.  That reduction in federal revenue has almost certainly led to reduced revenue sharing with states, which in turn pressures them not only to increase state college tuition, but to build enough new schools and classrooms.

When you couple the price pressure on one side and couple it with increased demand (both more kids and a higher percentage of them wanting to go to college), you get a surge in prices beyond what inflation alone would have driven; this is exactly what has indeed happened - costs are way higher now.  So anyone thinking about their ability to pay their own costs way back when, versus what is involved now, is not comparing apples to apples.

However, if you took that $6k in tax reductions [(28-22)x100k], saved it over your working lifetime, and saved it each year, and then took the proceeds and applied it to your kids' college costs, I'm pretty confident that they could 'pay their way' through the rest of the costs.  So declining to do at least that for your kids is on some level... making your children pay for your lifestyle.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: baludon on August 14, 2023, 05:20:23 PM

I took loans to pay for college as I didn’t get any help. This was early 90s and I remember thinking how expensive it was then. I graduated with about $20,000 in student loans which I thought was a lot. But I had a job after graduation and was confident I could pay it off. Of course I had to buy a new truck.  I did not start my working career off in good financial footing. But 25 years later, I’m retired and the truck still runs well.

I had a friend who was prepared to pay something like $50,000 a year in case his daughter goes to a small private liberal arts college. His daughter wanted to be an elementary teacher. She did not have good grades in high school. We discussed that maybe an inexpensive state college would be a better choice knowing that a teacher’s salary paid peanuts. But he and his wife were resigned to pay the $200,000 cost and hoped that it will work out somehow. Luckily for them, his daughter decided to join the navy after high school. He was quite relieved.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: rockstache on August 14, 2023, 05:52:48 PM

I’ve heard a lot of people talk about the community college/then transfer route too. But some colleges have now gotten wise to that and don’t accept transfer credits for accredited schools in their area. When I transferred I received basically the equivalent of an associates. My younger friend who went back to school at a different state school after taking a little time off? They refused to give her a single credit. We had taken all the exact same classes.

Obviously if that’s a track anyone chooses to take, it’s on them to determine that it’s a viable path before they start. But we can’t overstate the fact that they can change the rules anytime they want to. It’s a gamble.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on August 14, 2023, 06:00:26 PM

Quote from: jeroly on August 14, 2023, 03:36:57 PM

However, if you took that $6k in tax reductions [(28-22)x100k], saved it over your working lifetime, and saved it each year, and then took the proceeds and applied it to your kids' college costs, I'm pretty confident that they could 'pay their way' through the rest of the costs.  So declining to do at least that for your kids is on some level... making your children pay for your lifestyle.

Good analysis except for those who never made the equivalent of $100k per year, or anywhere near that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on August 14, 2023, 06:24:24 PM

Quote from: rockstache on August 14, 2023, 05:52:48 PM

I’ve heard a lot of people talk about the community college/then transfer route too. But some colleges have now gotten wise to that and don’t accept transfer credits for accredited schools in their area. When I transferred I received basically the equivalent of an associates. My younger friend who went back to school at a different state school after taking a little time off? They refused to give her a single credit. We had taken all the exact same classes.

Obviously if that’s a track anyone chooses to take, it’s on them to determine that it’s a viable path before they start. But we can’t overstate the fact that they can change the rules anytime they want to. It’s a gamble.

It's also more difficult to get scholarships as a junior transfer vs. an incoming freshman.  At least in my family's experience.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on August 14, 2023, 07:27:59 PM

Quote from: baludon on August 14, 2023, 05:20:23 PM

…

I had a friend who was prepared to pay something like $50,000 a year in case his daughter goes to a small private liberal arts college. His daughter wanted to be an elementary teacher. She did not have good grades in high school. We discussed that maybe an inexpensive state college would be a better choice knowing that a teacher’s salary paid peanuts. But he and his wife were resigned to pay the $200,000 cost and hoped that it will work out somehow. Luckily for them, his daughter decided to join the navy after high school. He was quite relieved.

They dodged a bullet from a gun they loaded, removed the safety on,  and stepped in front of.

I support people paying high costs for school unnecessarily. I appreciate others being stuck in their jobs paying FICA for an extra decade or two.

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 14, 2023, 06:24:24 PM

Quote from: rockstache on August 14, 2023, 05:52:48 PM

I’ve heard a lot of people talk about the community college/then transfer route too. But some colleges have now gotten wise to that and don’t accept transfer credits for accredited schools in their area. When I transferred I received basically the equivalent of an associates. My younger friend who went back to school at a different state school after taking a little time off? They refused to give her a single credit. We had taken all the exact same classes.

Obviously if that’s a track anyone chooses to take, it’s on them to determine that it’s a viable path before they start. But we can’t overstate the fact that they can change the rules anytime they want to. It’s a gamble.

It's also more difficult to get scholarships as a junior transfer vs. an incoming freshman.  At least in my family's experience.

Ugh, if both these points are broadly true, that really sucks. The junior college  route was such a great technique. Two of my best friends did this. They are both way sharper than I could ever hope to be. I was on a four year ROTC scholarship so went direct to four year. So that’s my excuse.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: catccc on August 14, 2023, 11:41:59 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 14, 2023, 06:00:26 PM

Quote from: jeroly on August 14, 2023, 03:36:57 PM

However, if you took that $6k in tax reductions [(28-22)x100k], saved it over your working lifetime, and saved it each year, and then took the proceeds and applied it to your kids' college costs, I'm pretty confident that they could 'pay their way' through the rest of the costs.  So declining to do at least that for your kids is on some level... making your children pay for your lifestyle.

Good analysis except for those who never made the equivalent of $100k per year, or anywhere near that.

Yes, and also these are marginal rates, so even if you earned $100k, the delta in taxes would not be anywhere close to $6k, it would be $200.  For 2023, the top marginal rate for income after deductions of $100k is 24% and it only applies to about $5k of the $100k. (95K is subject to rates of 10, 12, or 22%) Versus 28%, you are looking at a savings of $200.  $200 a year isn’t going to make a big impact.  Also, pre-1986, personal interest like credit cards and auto loans were tax deductible, the rates are just one part of the tax code.

Anyway, I don’t think it is reduced tax rates that making schools more expensive.  I think it’s the student loan programs gone wild.

But “making your children pay for your lifestyle” hits the nail on the head on terms of my thoughts on why we plan to cover most, if not all, of our kids college education and don’t want to skimp on those savings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on August 15, 2023, 02:25:30 AM

Quote from: catccc on August 14, 2023, 11:41:59 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on August 14, 2023, 06:00:26 PM

Quote from: jeroly on August 14, 2023, 03:36:57 PM

However, if you took that $6k in tax reductions [(28-22)x100k], saved it over your working lifetime, and saved it each year, and then took the proceeds and applied it to your kids' college costs, I'm pretty confident that they could 'pay their way' through the rest of the costs.  So declining to do at least that for your kids is on some level... making your children pay for your lifestyle.

Good analysis except for those who never made the equivalent of $100k per year, or anywhere near that.

Yes, and also these are marginal rates, so even if you earned $100k, the delta in taxes would not be anywhere close to $6k, it would be $200.  For 2023, the top marginal rate for income after deductions of $100k is 24% and it only applies to about $5k of the $100k. (95K is subject to rates of 10, 12, or 22%) Versus 28%, you are looking at a savings of $200.  $200 a year isn’t going to make a big impact.  Also, pre-1986, personal interest like credit cards and auto loans were tax deductible, the rates are just one part of the tax code.

Anyway, I don’t think it is reduced tax rates that making schools more expensive.  I think it’s the student loan programs gone wild.

But “making your children pay for your lifestyle” hits the nail on the head on terms of my thoughts on why we plan to cover most, if not all, of our kids college education and don’t want to skimp on those savings.

The median household income in 2021 was about $71k, so after adjusting for the last two years worth of inflation, and only looking at the subset of the two-income households (the vast majority of households with college-bound children)... it would seem that $100k is a reasonable basis for comparisons... however my screwup on marginal taxation is beyond facepunch-worthy. I blame jetlag after returning from an awesome holiday with my yet-to-FIRE sweetie.

Some points about student loans:

While student loans are more plentiful now than previously, and that easier access to student loans has fueled some individuals' bad spending decisions, (a) the new(er) loan programs address real needs, making college accessible to people who could not previously attend, and while it's fine to observe deficiencies in government programs' eligibility requirements, fraud prevention, etc., we should be very careful about bashing providing their demonstrable benefits to both underprivileged citizens as well as economic benefits to the society at large (in general terms, more education leads to higher productivity); (b)  it's also true that many families have taken on way too much student loan debt as a result of having been exploited by a variety of unscrupulous actors including for-profit colleges; (c) credit in general now is more available than 'back in my day' - remember that until the '80s even mortgages were hard to get, so part of this is just a manifestation of a bigger problem.

There are two other factors in play in my opinion I hadn't previously mentioned:

(a) The squeeze on the middle class over the past 40 years has enabled employers to become more selective in their hiring requirements and now a college degree is a requirement for employment in most blue-collar jobs, whereas that wasn't the case (and doesn't often need to be the case) for far more of them 'back in the day;'

(b) A certain amount of cachet has grown around bragging about sending your kid to private school, further driving demand.

It's going to be fascinating to watch the education industry adjust to the revolutionary technological changes happening as we speak - AI (and all the opportunities it provides for cheating via plagiarism, cheating on tests, faking online attendance, etc.), remote instruction, and more...as well as the political challenge of the new anti-intellectualism (e.g. Florida's school department).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 15, 2023, 07:24:52 AM

Quote from: jeroly on August 15, 2023, 02:25:30 AM

It's going to be fascinating to watch the education industry adjust to the revolutionary technological changes happening as we speak - AI (and all the opportunities it provides for cheating via plagiarism, cheating on tests, faking online attendance, etc.), remote instruction, and more...as well as the political challenge of the new anti-intellectualism (e.g. Florida's school department).

In addition, there is an "enrollment cliff" that will hit all of higher ed soon due to the dramatic decline in birth rate after the 2008 financial crisis : See https://www.synario.com/enrollment-cliff/

They are projecting a sharp drop in the number of applicants after 2026.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 15, 2023, 07:48:38 AM

Small rant time -
I'm just a casual observer, but one would think it would have been possible, especially during and after Covid, to reduce the price of college.  My kids just missed the year or two of Pandemic at-home learning, but this should have been a catalyst for colleges to find cost-cutting opportunities.  There is no doubt in my mind that colleges should be able to leverage technology to continue to provide a high quality education for a lower price.

Once again, America 'does it differently' than other countries and relies on the free market to set prices.  And once again, the consumer is faced with walking in to a 'supermarket' where we want the best product but have no idea what it will cost or how the prices are set, let alone what is the best value.  To complicate it further, things are dependent on which state you just happen to live in, so it's really hard to walk up and down all the aisles in the market and compare.  For the wealthy and well-connected, this supermarket works just fine, but for the casual Joe it's a nightmare.  Other countries have a more socialist approach to higher education, similar to health care.  And just like health care, the American system which worked at one point has now spiraled out of control.  I wonder if we'll ever get Federal action along the lines of an 'Affordable Education Act', given how massive student debt has become?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 15, 2023, 08:15:27 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 15, 2023, 07:48:38 AM

Small rant time -
I'm just a casual observer, but one would think it would have been possible, especially during and after Covid, to reduce the price of college.  My kids just missed the year or two of Pandemic at-home learning, but this should have been a catalyst for colleges to find cost-cutting opportunities.  There is no doubt in my mind that colleges should be able to leverage technology to continue to provide a high quality education for a lower price.

Once again, America 'does it differently' than other countries and relies on the free market to set prices.  And once again, the consumer is faced with walking in to a 'supermarket' where we want the best product but have no idea what it will cost or how the prices are set, let alone what is the best value.  To complicate it further, things are dependent on which state you just happen to live in, so it's really hard to walk up and down all the aisles in the market and compare.  For the wealthy and well-connected, this supermarket works just fine, but for the casual Joe it's a nightmare.  Other countries have a more socialist approach to higher education, similar to health care.  And just like health care, the American system which worked at one point has now spiraled out of control.  I wonder if we'll ever get Federal action along the lines of an 'Affordable Education Act', given how massive student debt has become?

This comment may be indicative of the times.  I guess it was about 30 years ago that "market forces" were touted as the panacea for nearly all problems.  Politicians were seeking ways to privatize everything.  I think the pendulum is finally swinging the other way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 15, 2023, 08:20:13 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 15, 2023, 07:48:38 AM

Small rant time -
I'm just a casual observer, but one would think it would have been possible, especially during and after Covid, to reduce the price of college.  My kids just missed the year or two of Pandemic at-home learning, but this should have been a catalyst for colleges to find cost-cutting opportunities.  There is no doubt in my mind that colleges should be able to leverage technology to continue to provide a high quality education for a lower price.

Once again, America 'does it differently' than other countries and relies on the free market to set prices.  And once again, the consumer is faced with walking in to a 'supermarket' where we want the best product but have no idea what it will cost or how the prices are set, let alone what is the best value.  To complicate it further, things are dependent on which state you just happen to live in, so it's really hard to walk up and down all the aisles in the market and compare.  For the wealthy and well-connected, this supermarket works just fine, but for the casual Joe it's a nightmare.  Other countries have a more socialist approach to higher education, similar to health care.  And just like health care, the American system which worked at one point has now spiraled out of control.  I wonder if we'll ever get Federal action along the lines of an 'Affordable Education Act', given how massive student debt has become?

I agree.  Due to the pandemic, my son did attend college at home the first year.  It actually turned out rather well.  Many of his peers skipped that year and are now a year behind, or never ended up going!

The only savings opportunities were the fact he was at home...and that saved us a ton in room/board costs.  However, NO tuition cuts whatsoever.

I do kind of get it though.  Many universities had to massively invest in remote tech, etc... They actually didn't have the technology to leverage.  That adds up.


BTW - we received an email about the new SAVE loan repayment plan.

https://studentaid.gov/announcements-events/save-plan

It actually seems like a decent plan...and takes aim square at the "interest problem" the current income based loan repayment plan has.   And it actually gives incentives to pay back the loan, etc... ( i.e. - interest over and above your determined payment is only forgiven if you make regular payments ).   This plan should eliminate many cases where the loan balance increases substantially even though the determined income based payments are made.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on August 15, 2023, 09:53:57 AM

n=1 here and this is anecdata, but I'm going to share just in case it is helpful to people re: college decision making.

If you want your kids to go to college and you don't want to spend a huge part of your stash on it you need to do the same things you are doing to plan the rest of your financial FIRE journey -- research, understand how the system works, and plan.

Understand how the FAFSA works.  It uses prior prior year tax data.  So, if you can manufacture low on paper income in your kid's sophomore year, you may give yourself a boost in terms of financial aid options.  If you income is low enough or if you are on certain programs in that year (Medicaid and free student lunch being the big ones), you will probably get a $0 EFC.  Maybe the kids sophomore year is a good one to take a sabbatical or trial FIRE run to bring your income down.

If you have substantial assets that you do not want to spend on college costs, alert your kids NOW that you will not be able to finance an education for them at any school that uses the CSS profile to assess for financial aid.  Unless your income is below the stated cutoff for the schools they are interested in for need based aid.  This can be surprisingly high at some schools -- used to hover around 50-60k at a lot of places, but now may be up to 100k plus. 

Look into regional university tuition discount programs -- WUE is the one for the western US.  If you apply to a participating out of state school via WUE, you pay only 150% of the in-state tution.  This would have made going to the schools in Oregon, California and Colorado that DD liked feasible for the first year (she was also offered nice recruitment scholarships to OSU and Colorado State)

Understand how your state flagship schools handle financial aid.  Based on our EFC of $0, our daughter is getting essentially a full ride at our state flagship.  Part of her award is a work study offer, but I see that as a plus.  Loans were not a part of her package there. 

Does your kid want to go to an out of state public?  As FIREd folk, you have more flexibility to move/establish residency there.  I would have considered moving to either Oregon or Colorado if DD had wanted to go to the schools there that accepted her. 

HIghly recommend the book Who Gets In and Why to better understand how merit aid works, especially if you are considering private institutions for your kids.  You will have much better chances of getting a strong merit aid award at less competitive schools.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 15, 2023, 11:38:45 AM

Quote from: lhamo on August 15, 2023, 09:53:57 AM

n=1 here and this is anecdata, but I'm going to share just in case it is helpful to people re: college decision making.

If you want your kids to go to college and you don't want to spend a huge part of your stash on it you need to do the same things you are doing to plan the rest of your financial FIRE journey -- research, understand how the system works, and plan.

Understand how the FAFSA works.  It uses prior prior year tax data.  So, if you can manufacture low on paper income in your kid's sophomore year, you may give yourself a boost in terms of financial aid options.  If you income is low enough or if you are on certain programs in that year (Medicaid and free student lunch being the big ones), you will probably get a $0 EFC.  Maybe the kids sophomore year is a good one to take a sabbatical or trial FIRE run to bring your income down.

If you have substantial assets that you do not want to spend on college costs, alert your kids NOW that you will not be able to finance an education for them at any school that uses the CSS profile to assess for financial aid.  Unless your income is below the stated cutoff for the schools they are interested in for need based aid.  This can be surprisingly high at some schools -- used to hover around 50-60k at a lot of places, but now may be up to 100k plus. 

Look into regional university tuition discount programs -- WUE is the one for the western US.  If you apply to a participating out of state school via WUE, you pay only 150% of the in-state tution.  This would have made going to the schools in Oregon, California and Colorado that DD liked feasible for the first year (she was also offered nice recruitment scholarships to OSU and Colorado State)

Understand how your state flagship schools handle financial aid.  Based on our EFC of $0, our daughter is getting essentially a full ride at our state flagship.  Part of her award is a work study offer, but I see that as a plus.  Loans were not a part of her package there. 

Does your kid want to go to an out of state public?  As FIREd folk, you have more flexibility to move/establish residency there.  I would have considered moving to either Oregon or Colorado if DD had wanted to go to the schools there that accepted her. 

HIghly recommend the book Who Gets In and Why to better understand how merit aid works, especially if you are considering private institutions for your kids.  You will have much better chances of getting a strong merit aid award at less competitive schools.

This is exactly what I was talking about! There are tons of ways to hack education costs. Mustachianism for the win!

Anecdata: My friend's twins did AA's at a JC, then finished their degrees at USC. Their brother got into West Point. My cousin's kid went to Brown on an athletic scholarship. They also got their Master's in one year, by utilizing another Brown perk. Another cousin graduated Med School, then joined the Air  Force. They were a Major within five years, then eventually retired as a full-bird Colonel. Another got into a Maritime Academy.

All of these people earned gold-plated credentials for way below average cost.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Captain FIRE on August 15, 2023, 12:13:22 PM

I too believe my choice to retire early should not penalize our kids with a higher EFC. We have a firehose of cash coming in right now, so it's hard not to work OMY to fund what would otherwise cost our kids substantially more time. We're almost done funding the the oldest's account and we'll tweak it in ~5 years if needed, depending on how the market is doing.

There are ways to hack educational costs, but usually it's a tradeoff. College is about more than just a piece of paper, it's also about learning, instilling a love for learning, building connections and relationships (friendships to jobs), etc. Some of the ways to reduce costs compromise these other goals. I've had community college courses, good state university courses, and courses at a top 10 school. The quality of education improved substantially for each level up. Knowing this, I'm not a fan of encouraging my kid to take a scholarship at a state school if they don't want to go there. Many top schools don't allow athletic scholarships (and that's a dicey strategy to employ anyways). My family has a military background, and knowing what I do, I'm not comfortable encouraging them to go into the military for the free education. We earn more at our current jobs than we would we tried to get a job at a university for the free tuition. Etc. But it's not mustachian, so I don't usually advertise our plans to fund most if not all of college. That all said, yes, I'm looking into how to reduce our income to lower our costs for FAFSA, but 1) some places use CSS, and 2) we'd need to manage to keep the income low for 7 years.

*waves hi*
I've been lurking here for ages, finally posted.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: FireLane on August 15, 2023, 12:18:02 PM

On the subject of college hacking, New York's Excelsior scholarship pays full tuition at a SUNY or CUNY school for in-state families who earn $125,000 or less.

When the time comes, I'm going to strongly hint to my son that he should take advantage of this. (Although who knows what the college landscape will look like in 10+ years...)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on August 15, 2023, 12:23:19 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 15, 2023, 07:48:38 AM

Small rant time -
I'm just a casual observer, but one would think it would have been possible, especially during and after Covid, to reduce the price of college.  My kids just missed the year or two of Pandemic at-home learning, but this should have been a catalyst for colleges to find cost-cutting opportunities.  There is no doubt in my mind that colleges should be able to leverage technology to continue to provide a high quality education for a lower price.

Once again, America 'does it differently' than other countries and relies on the free market to set prices.  And once again, the consumer is faced with walking in to a 'supermarket' where we want the best product but have no idea what it will cost or how the prices are set, let alone what is the best value.  To complicate it further, things are dependent on which state you just happen to live in, so it's really hard to walk up and down all the aisles in the market and compare.  For the wealthy and well-connected, this supermarket works just fine, but for the casual Joe it's a nightmare.  Other countries have a more socialist approach to higher education, similar to health care.  And just like health care, the American system which worked at one point has now spiraled out of control.  I wonder if we'll ever get Federal action along the lines of an 'Affordable Education Act', given how massive student debt has become?

I've got to completely disagree that America relies on the free market to set prices for college.  The free market would have in no way have led to college being as expensive as it is today.  In no other sector can someone with no income, no assets, no history of credit, etc etc borrow and actually be encouraged to borrow six figures completely unsecured, which leads to millions of people having six figures to spend whereever.  I think colleges could have and probably did find a lot of cost cutting opportunities, but given everyone has access to six figures of borrowing, and no competing college lowered their price, why would they lower their price? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 15, 2023, 12:28:06 PM

Quote from: lhamo on August 15, 2023, 09:53:57 AM

n=1 here and this is anecdata, but I'm going to share just in case it is helpful to people re: college decision making.

If you want your kids to go to college and you don't want to spend a huge part of your stash on it you need to do the same things you are doing to plan the rest of your financial FIRE journey -- research, understand how the system works, and plan.

Understand how the FAFSA works.  It uses prior prior year tax data.  So, if you can manufacture low on paper income in your kid's sophomore year, you may give yourself a boost in terms of financial aid options.  If you income is low enough or if you are on certain programs in that year (Medicaid and free student lunch being the big ones), you will probably get a $0 EFC.  Maybe the kids sophomore year is a good one to take a sabbatical or trial FIRE run to bring your income down.

If you have substantial assets that you do not want to spend on college costs, alert your kids NOW that you will not be able to finance an education for them at any school that uses the CSS profile to assess for financial aid.  Unless your income is below the stated cutoff for the schools they are interested in for need based aid.  This can be surprisingly high at some schools -- used to hover around 50-60k at a lot of places, but now may be up to 100k plus. 

Look into regional university tuition discount programs -- WUE is the one for the western US.  If you apply to a participating out of state school via WUE, you pay only 150% of the in-state tution.  This would have made going to the schools in Oregon, California and Colorado that DD liked feasible for the first year (she was also offered nice recruitment scholarships to OSU and Colorado State)

Understand how your state flagship schools handle financial aid.  Based on our EFC of $0, our daughter is getting essentially a full ride at our state flagship.  Part of her award is a work study offer, but I see that as a plus.  Loans were not a part of her package there. 

Does your kid want to go to an out of state public?  As FIREd folk, you have more flexibility to move/establish residency there.  I would have considered moving to either Oregon or Colorado if DD had wanted to go to the schools there that accepted her. 

HIghly recommend the book Who Gets In and Why to better understand how merit aid works, especially if you are considering private institutions for your kids.  You will have much better chances of getting a strong merit aid award at less competitive schools.

I like the thinking there, and trust me...we thought of nearly everything you mentioned.  However, the vast majority of people are not going to "take a sabbatical" or "trial FIRE" to lower their income, even the majority of people here on MMM.  Personally, I'll gladly take the year of income vs. no income to possibly save a few bucks on college tuition.

However, you do have a point in that if you are already FIRE'd, it would be fairly easy to manufacture low income to arrive at a low ( or even zero ) EFC.  Heck, many FIREd folks are already manufacturing low income to be eligible for ACA credits.   I'd wager that most folks are not FIREd with college aged kids though.

I still maintain that FAFSA is an extremely flawed system.   Like I mentioned before, in many cases the parents won't ( or claim the can't ) pay their EFC.  That puts the student in a very bad situation.  This happens all the time...
   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 15, 2023, 12:42:38 PM

My original plan was to FIRE before the kids went to college and have low income, but that is very much having the tail wag the dog.  If you can make more money working than what you save on tuition (which is the case for a lot of jobs, not the least of which the firehose of income jobs many of us have had) then it's really hard to use tuition saving as justification to forego income.  On paper, the numbers make no sense. 

Of course, if you are FI and hate your job, then an excuse like saving big money on tuition sweetens the deal.  Once you're not comparing apples to apples (i.e. if you have FIRE'd or have sabbatical), then the tuition savings looks really savvy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Louise on August 15, 2023, 01:17:59 PM

Quote from: Dicey on August 12, 2023, 11:37:08 AM

Quote from: Louise on August 12, 2023, 11:17:46 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 12, 2023, 10:16:58 AM

But I would never want them to make tough educational decisions or work a lot to pay for school and then inherit $2M (each) when we die. That just doesn’t make sense to me.

I got to go off to college and it was a wonderful experience. I'd like my child to have the same. I agree it doesn't make sense to deny that and inherit money later.

I am absolutely not suggesting that children can't(or shouldn't) "go off to college", I'm questioning the amount of $$$$$ many parents, especially mustachian ones, seem to feel obligated to spend.

Yes, I agree. I was thinking more along the lines of we have amassed a large sum of money (see thread title, lol) and I can't imagine telling DD that she has to go to community college and live at home, but then inherit a huge sum years later. That doesn't make sense to me, especially because I loved going away to college and would like her to have the same experience. Back in the day, my family had a low EFC, so I received Pell grants, worked a lot, had a few academic scholarships, and took out some loans. Back when I was 18, it would have been hard because the nearest college was 40 minutes away in an economically depressed city. I'm not sure it would have been easy to get started on my own with no car and no job. Instead, I might have just joined the military or tried to get a job in one of the factories, I don't know.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Louise on August 15, 2023, 01:23:24 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 15, 2023, 12:42:38 PM

My original plan was to FIRE before the kids went to college and have low income, but that is very much having the tail wag the dog.  If you can make more money working than what you save on tuition (which is the case for a lot of jobs, not the least of which the firehose of income jobs many of us have had) then it's really hard to use tuition saving as justification to forego income.  On paper, the numbers make no sense. 

Of course, if you are FI and hate your job, then an excuse like saving big money on tuition sweetens the deal.  Once you're not comparing apples to apples (i.e. if you have FIRE'd or have sabbatical), then the tuition savings looks really savvy.

I haven't worked in years, but my spouse loves his job and loves working. I told him he should think about retiring for good in 2025 (DD's FAFSA year), but I'm not sure he will go for that. I'd really like our family to have more time together before our child leaves.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 15, 2023, 01:28:54 PM

Quote from: Louise on August 15, 2023, 01:23:24 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 15, 2023, 12:42:38 PM

My original plan was to FIRE before the kids went to college and have low income, but that is very much having the tail wag the dog.  If you can make more money working than what you save on tuition (which is the case for a lot of jobs, not the least of which the firehose of income jobs many of us have had) then it's really hard to use tuition saving as justification to forego income.  On paper, the numbers make no sense. 

Of course, if you are FI and hate your job, then an excuse like saving big money on tuition sweetens the deal.  Once you're not comparing apples to apples (i.e. if you have FIRE'd or have sabbatical), then the tuition savings looks really savvy.

I haven't worked in years, but my spouse loves his job and loves working. I told him he should think about retiring for good in 2025 (DD's FAFSA year), but I'm not sure he will go for that. I'd really like our family to have more time together before our child leaves.

That was another wrinkle in my plan, after 10 years of being a SAHP, DW decided she wanted to get her teacher certificate and become a full time teacher.  We'd still likely get a good FAFSA subsidy / EFC with her making $30 - 40k, but it does complicate things.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 15, 2023, 06:11:25 PM

Well I’m confused. If I’ve got say $4M in investments (taxable and retirement accounts) doesn’t that show up on the FAFSA and make your dependents ineligible for college aid regardless of what you AGI is?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Zamboni on August 15, 2023, 06:43:59 PM

Not technically if it is all tied up in retirement accounts, but if the money is in taxable accounts, then yes. Also, many schools have supplemental aid applications that are much more detailed than the FAFSA. I don't actually know what the formula is, though. I was surprised we received as much aid for our kids as we initially did as we are pretty high income in my opinion. If they had gone in state, though, I don't think we qualified for anything at our local state schools.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on August 15, 2023, 08:47:09 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 15, 2023, 06:11:25 PM

Well I’m confused. If I’ve got say $4M in investments (taxable and retirement accounts) doesn’t that show up on the FAFSA and make your dependents ineligible for college aid regardless of what you AGI is?

No.  There is a whole other thread about this, but in short if you qualify for certain programs (Medicaid and free school lunch being the primary ones) due to low taxable income that means your assets are not considered in the FAFSA calculations. 

CSS Profile, which many private schools use, looks more deeply at actual financial details.

If you are on the road to FIRE it is pretty easy to game the FAFSA if you understand how it works and plan ahead.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on August 15, 2023, 09:03:56 PM

Quote from: lhamo on August 15, 2023, 08:47:09 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 15, 2023, 06:11:25 PM

Well I’m confused. If I’ve got say $4M in investments (taxable and retirement accounts) doesn’t that show up on the FAFSA and make your dependents ineligible for college aid regardless of what you AGI is?

No.  There is a whole other thread about this, but in short if you qualify for certain programs (Medicaid and free school lunch being the primary ones) due to low taxable income that means your assets are not considered in the FAFSA calculations. 

And when the new FAFSA rules take effect in a year or two, there will be even more ways to game the system be "exempt from asset reporting".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 16, 2023, 05:32:55 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 15, 2023, 09:03:56 PM

Quote from: lhamo on August 15, 2023, 08:47:09 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 15, 2023, 06:11:25 PM

Well I’m confused. If I’ve got say $4M in investments (taxable and retirement accounts) doesn’t that show up on the FAFSA and make your dependents ineligible for college aid regardless of what you AGI is?

No.  There is a whole other thread about this, but in short if you qualify for certain programs (Medicaid and free school lunch being the primary ones) due to low taxable income that means your assets are not considered in the FAFSA calculations. 

And when the new FAFSA rules take effect in a year or two, there will be even more ways to game the system be "exempt from asset reporting".

What makes you think that? According to what I just read on the new form assets are not reported for parents with AGI less than $60k AND does not file tax forms A,B,D,E, F or H. So anyone filing a schedule D will have to report brokerage account balances.
At least that’s how I read it now that I’m digging into the upcoming changes to the FAFSA. This is all still new to me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 16, 2023, 06:52:32 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 16, 2023, 05:32:55 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 15, 2023, 09:03:56 PM

Quote from: lhamo on August 15, 2023, 08:47:09 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 15, 2023, 06:11:25 PM

Well I’m confused. If I’ve got say $4M in investments (taxable and retirement accounts) doesn’t that show up on the FAFSA and make your dependents ineligible for college aid regardless of what you AGI is?

No.  There is a whole other thread about this, but in short if you qualify for certain programs (Medicaid and free school lunch being the primary ones) due to low taxable income that means your assets are not considered in the FAFSA calculations. 

And when the new FAFSA rules take effect in a year or two, there will be even more ways to game the system be "exempt from asset reporting".

What makes you think that? According to what I just read on the new form assets are not reported for parents with AGI less than $60k AND does not file tax forms A,B,D,E, F or H. So anyone filing a schedule D will have to report brokerage account balances.
At least that’s how I read it now that I’m digging into the upcoming changes to the FAFSA. This is all still new to me.

Also, not to make anyone feel bad or anything, but grants and scholarships are intended for students that need the economic support.  I always felt a little off 'gaming the system', even if the system is incredibly flawed...  Plenty of FIRE adherents do it, and even go on to boast about it (Mad FIentist...), so it is very much a personal decision.

The bigger question on a lot of this FIRE stuff is if the US is ever going to figure out how to treat people with assets similar to people with income.  The game is certainly rigged to favor being investment rich and income poor.  Other countries have implemented things like a wealth tax, so there is precedent, just not political will or a dire enough national deficit problem, yet...  But politicians are chipping away around the edges.  You never know when things will suddenly shift.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: fredbear on August 16, 2023, 07:30:45 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on August 15, 2023, 12:23:19 PM

I've got to completely disagree that America relies on the free market to set prices for college.  The free market would have in no way have led to college being as expensive as it is today.  ...

When Mrs Fredbear started as a professor some 30+ years ago, the administrative structure was Professor - Department Chair - Dean.  Now there are about 8 layers between Professor and Dean.  Colleges claim these tiers have been instituted to comply with federal mandates and regulations.  Perhaps that is true; none of these titles (adjunct, assistant, associate, assistant to the adjunct...) seem as if a free market would have generated them.  The people in these jobs make 6 figures, not based on their scientific accomplishments.  Much of the enormous advance in college prices is administrative bloat, which, ensconced, self-protects.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 16, 2023, 07:38:23 AM

Quote from: fredbear on August 16, 2023, 07:30:45 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on August 15, 2023, 12:23:19 PM

I've got to completely disagree that America relies on the free market to set prices for college.  The free market would have in no way have led to college being as expensive as it is today.  ...

When Mrs Fredbear started as a professor some 30+ years ago, the administrative structure was Professor - Department Chair - Dean.  Now there are about 8 layers between Professor and Dean.  Colleges claim these tiers have been instituted to comply with federal mandates and regulations.  Perhaps that is true; none of these titles (adjunct, assistant, associate, assistant to the adjunct...) seem as if a free market would have generated them.  The people in these jobs make 6 figures, not based on their scientific accomplishments.  Much of the enormous advance in college prices is administrative bloat, which, ensconced, self-protects.

Sounds exactly like my large megacorp.  My wife works for a large 'nonprofit' medical organization and yep...same thing.  The "administrative fat" in both cases is astonishingly large...but ironically is even larger in the 'nonprofit'!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on August 16, 2023, 08:33:05 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on August 15, 2023, 12:23:19 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 15, 2023, 07:48:38 AM

Small rant time -
I'm just a casual observer, but one would think it would have been possible, especially during and after Covid, to reduce the price of college.  My kids just missed the year or two of Pandemic at-home learning, but this should have been a catalyst for colleges to find cost-cutting opportunities.  There is no doubt in my mind that colleges should be able to leverage technology to continue to provide a high quality education for a lower price.

Once again, America 'does it differently' than other countries and relies on the free market to set prices.  And once again, the consumer is faced with walking in to a 'supermarket' where we want the best product but have no idea what it will cost or how the prices are set, let alone what is the best value.  To complicate it further, things are dependent on which state you just happen to live in, so it's really hard to walk up and down all the aisles in the market and compare.  For the wealthy and well-connected, this supermarket works just fine, but for the casual Joe it's a nightmare.  Other countries have a more socialist approach to higher education, similar to health care.  And just like health care, the American system which worked at one point has now spiraled out of control.  I wonder if we'll ever get Federal action along the lines of an 'Affordable Education Act', given how massive student debt has become?

I've got to completely disagree that America relies on the free market to set prices for college.  The free market would have in no way have led to college being as expensive as it is today.  In no other sector can someone with no income, no assets, no history of credit, etc etc borrow and actually be encouraged to borrow six figures completely unsecured, which leads to millions of people having six figures to spend whereever.  I think colleges could have and probably did find a lot of cost cutting opportunities, but given everyone has access to six figures of borrowing, and no competing college lowered their price, why would they lower their price?

I can both agree and disagree with your statement.  I lived through the "before time" of college finance and through the change and into the "after time".  College costs followed directly the amounts that the federal government allowed for student loan borrowing.  I can remember going to my local bank before every year start and taking out a Federal student loan.  This was strictly limited for everyone.  College costs were set by what students could borrow.  So as an example, my top, private Northeast region technical university cost me $4000 back in the early 80's per semester.  Then Reagan opened the flood gates on student loans, removing all limits.  That same college added a full level of Deans over the existing Deans, directly under the president.  Lots of buildings were built.  The college president makes over a Million dollars.  My son went there for his undergrad engineering degree, like I did.  When he finished, full boat cost (what I paid) was $73k per year.  When I graduated in the mid 80's, I made my entire 4 year cost in about 13 months of working.  For him to do that, he'd have to have started at about $225k a year.  Well, that ain't gonna happen until he's been an engineer for 25 years outside of the Bay area, silly high priced places.

If the Fed were to again set max borrowing at a reasonable level again, guess what?  Colleges would drop their costs.  I know exactly how my alma mater sets it's costs.  It surveys about a dozen similar colleges....technical private top but not MIT level colleges.  Then they plop their cost right exactly in the middle of all of them.  It has nothing to do with actual cost. 

And  when I get calls from alumnae association people looking for donations, I respond "I'm happy to give you what I was given, paying my own way through college nearly 40 years ago.  Zip.  Goodbye.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on August 16, 2023, 12:53:42 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 16, 2023, 05:32:55 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 15, 2023, 09:03:56 PM

Quote from: lhamo on August 15, 2023, 08:47:09 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 15, 2023, 06:11:25 PM

Well I’m confused. If I’ve got say $4M in investments (taxable and retirement accounts) doesn’t that show up on the FAFSA and make your dependents ineligible for college aid regardless of what you AGI is?

No.  There is a whole other thread about this, but in short if you qualify for certain programs (Medicaid and free school lunch being the primary ones) due to low taxable income that means your assets are not considered in the FAFSA calculations. 

And when the new FAFSA rules take effect in a year or two, there will be even more ways to game the system be "exempt from asset reporting".

What makes you think that? According to what I just read on the new form assets are not reported for parents with AGI less than $60k AND does not file tax forms A,B,D,E, F or H. So anyone filing a schedule D will have to report brokerage account balances.
At least that’s how I read it now that I’m digging into the upcoming changes to the FAFSA. This is all still new to me.

What makes me think that is that when FAFSA simplification passed, I sat down and read through the entire law very carefully several times.  At that time I had two kids in college going to FAFSA schools.

As I've said before - and everyone should doublecheck for themselves and not rely on SGOTI - there are multiple ways to be exempt from asset reporting.  One may be what you mention - AGI low enough and not filing certain forms - although that may be old FAFSA and not new FAFSA; I'm not sure.  Another is if anyone in the FAFSA family receives benefits from a federal means tested benefit such as Medicaid.  A third - which doesn't seem to be well known and is based on my careful reading of the law - but I might be wrong and I might have misread the law - is if the family has an SAI of $0, which they can get by having an AGI under 175%/225% of FPL.  My notes say "Auto zero SAI also qualifies us for SNT under Section 479(b)(2)(A) via 473(b)" and those are references to the applicable sections of federal law if anyone wants to doublecheck.

I mention doublechecking several times because my kids are now post-FAFSA so it doesn't matter to me any more and I therefore have stopped keeping up on all the changes.  Also, Congress keeps tweaking FAFSA Simplification, and the Department of Education is being slow to roll things out.  Therefore a lot of what you'll read on the web about FAFSA is either out of date, incomplete, or just not written yet.  I feel badly for parents of HS juniors and seniors trying to navigate this stuff.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on August 16, 2023, 05:52:31 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 16, 2023, 12:53:42 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 16, 2023, 05:32:55 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 15, 2023, 09:03:56 PM

Quote from: lhamo on August 15, 2023, 08:47:09 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on August 15, 2023, 06:11:25 PM

Well I’m confused. If I’ve got say $4M in investments (taxable and retirement accounts) doesn’t that show up on the FAFSA and make your dependents ineligible for college aid regardless of what you AGI is?

No.  There is a whole other thread about this, but in short if you qualify for certain programs (Medicaid and free school lunch being the primary ones) due to low taxable income that means your assets are not considered in the FAFSA calculations. 

And when the new FAFSA rules take effect in a year or two, there will be even more ways to game the system be "exempt from asset reporting".

What makes you think that? According to what I just read on the new form assets are not reported for parents with AGI less than $60k AND does not file tax forms A,B,D,E, F or H. So anyone filing a schedule D will have to report brokerage account balances.
At least that’s how I read it now that I’m digging into the upcoming changes to the FAFSA. This is all still new to me.

What makes me think that is that when FAFSA simplification passed, I sat down and read through the entire law very carefully several times.  At that time I had two kids in college going to FAFSA schools.

As I've said before - and everyone should doublecheck for themselves and not rely on SGOTI - there are multiple ways to be exempt from asset reporting.  One may be what you mention - AGI low enough and not filing certain forms - although that may be old FAFSA and not new FAFSA; I'm not sure.  Another is if anyone in the FAFSA family receives benefits from a federal means tested benefit such as Medicaid.  A third - which doesn't seem to be well known and is based on my careful reading of the law - but I might be wrong and I might have misread the law - is if the family has an SAI of $0, which they can get by having an AGI under 175%/225% of FPL.  My notes say "Auto zero SAI also qualifies us for SNT under Section 479(b)(2)(A) via 473(b)" and those are references to the applicable sections of federal law if anyone wants to doublecheck.

I mention doublechecking several times because my kids are now post-FAFSA so it doesn't matter to me any more and I therefore have stopped keeping up on all the changes.  Also, Congress keeps tweaking FAFSA Simplification, and the Department of Education is being slow to roll things out.  Therefore a lot of what you'll read on the web about FAFSA is either out of date, incomplete, or just not written yet.  I feel badly for parents of HS juniors and seniors trying to navigate this stuff.

@secondcor521
thanks for the clarification! I will research more. My first child just started his freshman year of high school so we are just starting to consider things like this.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on August 17, 2023, 07:21:21 AM

I feel good about my current investment portfolio/plans for the long run so have been looking at cleaning up any other items that need attention.  One is our wills, which is the basic give the money to the spouse or after both gone split among the 3 kids, and who is to be their guardians until adulthood.  They are finishing college, high school and middle school now so a guardian is not gonna be a part of this for much longer. 

Since we made this will many years ago our net worth has significantly increased and I'm wondering if I should create some kind of trust to distribute the assets in pieces instead of all one lump sum.  (I guess it has just occurred to me that these kids would each become a millionare if we passed today, and I'm not sure even what I would have done with $1M at say 24 years old.....I sure have made some money mistakes in my life and was glad they happened back when I didnt have much...).  I don't want to set up anything elaborate or very controlling, but I sure see the advantage to splitting this into a couple/few pieces.  Anyone do this or have thoughts on why they didn't?  Who should hold/distribute the money since there will be very simple terms (maybe a law firm I get to draw this up?)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on August 17, 2023, 07:57:18 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on August 17, 2023, 07:21:21 AM

I feel good about my current investment portfolio/plans for the long run so have been looking at cleaning up any other items that need attention.  One is our wills, which is the basic give the money to the spouse or after both gone split among the 3 kids, and who is to be their guardians until adulthood.  They are finishing college, high school and middle school now so a guardian is not gonna be a part of this for much longer. 

Since we made this will many years ago our net worth has significantly increased and I'm wondering if I should create some kind of trust to distribute the assets in pieces instead of all one lump sum.  (I guess it has just occurred to me that these kids would each become a millionare if we passed today, and I'm not sure even what I would have done with $1M at say 24 years old.....I sure have made some money mistakes in my life and was glad they happened back when I didnt have much...).  I don't want to set up anything elaborate or very controlling, but I sure see the advantage to splitting this into a couple/few pieces.  Anyone do this or have thoughts on why they didn't?  Who should hold/distribute the money since there will be very simple terms (maybe a law firm I get to draw this up?)

You can create what's called a testamentary trust.  All that means is that it is a trust set up by your will.  So the trustee of those trusts would be named, and the terms of distribution would be outlined.  A common approach is separate but equal trusts for each kid, with HEMS distributions plus 1/3 at 25, 30, and 35 or whatever ages you like.

Any estate planning attorney will have boilerplate language for this kind of thing and would just drop it into your will.

The trustee could be the same person as the executor.  Any bank or investment firm can hold the assets in a trust account.  The trustee would be the person making the distributions from the trust to the kids (or to the college or doctor or whatever).

My current will is that way, but my next will (which I'm working on) will have that stuff ripped out.  Two reasons:  simplicity for my trustee, and my kids are all mature enough in their 20s to handle it.  On the other hand, I might leave it in as there are some estate tax avoidance benefits to my kids to leave it in trust rather than outright.

One thing with these kinds of trusts is that they have to file their own tax return and pay taxes differently.  So that's an additional thing to consider.  You can take a look at IRS Form 1041 to see the kind of return they file and how the rules are similar but different.  In particular trust tax brackets are more aggressive.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on August 17, 2023, 08:29:15 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on August 17, 2023, 07:57:18 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on August 17, 2023, 07:21:21 AM

I feel good about my current investment portfolio/plans for the long run so have been looking at cleaning up any other items that need attention.  One is our wills, which is the basic give the money to the spouse or after both gone split among the 3 kids, and who is to be their guardians until adulthood.  They are finishing college, high school and middle school now so a guardian is not gonna be a part of this for much longer. 

Since we made this will many years ago our net worth has significantly increased and I'm wondering if I should create some kind of trust to distribute the assets in pieces instead of all one lump sum.  (I guess it has just occurred to me that these kids would each become a millionare if we passed today, and I'm not sure even what I would have done with $1M at say 24 years old.....I sure have made some money mistakes in my life and was glad they happened back when I didnt have much...).  I don't want to set up anything elaborate or very controlling, but I sure see the advantage to splitting this into a couple/few pieces.  Anyone do this or have thoughts on why they didn't?  Who should hold/distribute the money since there will be very simple terms (maybe a law firm I get to draw this up?)

You can create what's called a testamentary trust.  All that means is that it is a trust set up by your will.  So the trustee of those trusts would be named, and the terms of distribution would be outlined.  A common approach is separate but equal trusts for each kid, with HEMS distributions plus 1/3 at 25, 30, and 35 or whatever ages you like.

Any estate planning attorney will have boilerplate language for this kind of thing and would just drop it into your will.

The trustee could be the same person as the executor.  Any bank or investment firm can hold the assets in a trust account.  The trustee would be the person making the distributions from the trust to the kids (or to the college or doctor or whatever).

My current will is that way, but my next will (which I'm working on) will have that stuff ripped out.  Two reasons:  simplicity for my trustee, and my kids are all mature enough in their 20s to handle it.  On the other hand, I might leave it in as there are some estate tax avoidance benefits to my kids to leave it in trust rather than outright.

One thing with these kinds of trusts is that they have to file their own tax return and pay taxes differently.  So that's an additional thing to consider.  You can take a look at IRS Form 1041 to see the kind of return they file and how the rules are similar but different.  In particular trust tax brackets are more aggressive.

Thanks, that's very helpful.  My youngest is actually the smartest/best with money/investing (I'm sure he'll be managing my money someday), so obviously I hope and expect for any of this to be moot as I'm sure I'd remove it all in 15 years and expect both my wife and myself to still be around at that point ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 17, 2023, 05:00:43 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 14, 2023, 01:24:29 PM

This just isn't anywhere near attainable anymore.  Our kids attend the same state university that we did.  Unfortunately, summer jobs are literally a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of college.  Summer jobs allow our kids to pay a portion of their living expenses, and part of their rent, but that's about it.   Fortunately, we set up 529 accounts when they were young in anticipation, but the amount we have in there still doesn't cover everything....not even close.  And like I said...they attend a state university...not some even more obscenely priced private college.

State schools where I am are $35k per year all in, if my kids could make that in a summer they wouldn't need college.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 17, 2023, 05:06:30 PM

Quote from: pecunia on August 14, 2023, 01:48:27 PM

So,.......college costs a lot more,........kids can't get jobs that pay enough to pay the tuition,........banks charge high interest rates to these kids to go to school & I guess even bankruptcy won't get them out of it.    But the system certainly isn't rigged it's just a natural progression of a Capitalist economy,........right.

Actually no, colleges and universities are either non-profit or government controlled, loans are provided by the government, and by law those loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy.    Because of this colleges spend an inordinate amount of money on new buildings, higher salaries, and a crap ton of mid level administrators just like the federal government.   So pretty much the opposite of capitalism because there is no need to be accountable to budgets or ROI as the money keeps rolling in.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: catccc on August 17, 2023, 05:11:30 PM

There are definitely for-profit colleges, too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 18, 2023, 02:17:08 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on August 17, 2023, 05:00:43 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 14, 2023, 01:24:29 PM

This just isn't anywhere near attainable anymore.  Our kids attend the same state university that we did.  Unfortunately, summer jobs are literally a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of college.  Summer jobs allow our kids to pay a portion of their living expenses, and part of their rent, but that's about it.   Fortunately, we set up 529 accounts when they were young in anticipation, but the amount we have in there still doesn't cover everything....not even close.  And like I said...they attend a state university...not some even more obscenely priced private college.

State schools where I am are $35k per year all in, if my kids could make that in a summer they wouldn't need college.

It's still possible to make enough to cover a big part of the expenses, at least in some cases. My younger daughter, who is a math major, made about $20k this past summer as an intern in a tech company. Incidentally, she does attend a state school but not in our state. We pay out-of-state tuition which is still a bargain compared to many private schools.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 18, 2023, 02:34:16 AM

One thing I noticed is alot of people in the 2-4M+ do have pensions which is awesome. I was never fortunate enough to have an opportunity for one but was self employed most my life.

Another thing that is amazing is to see so many people talk about there numbers still swelling. Granted I have been retired now for 9 years and I have a lot of nice things and am always busy doing things but I I have stayed in my budget and I have pretty much the same as I have had since the market had its run up. I guess thats a win in some regards but otherwise things are the same. I am right at 2.4 with a paid of house worth another 1.3M and then some. Like Dicey my wife still works because she loves her job and has off seemingly all the time but she makes didly but gets health insurance for us and still contributes to the max on to get her match on 401k and puts money in our HSA. I will take odd cash jobs here an there because we have an RV and have begone traveling alot around the country. These also are expensive times as we have 2 out of college and 1 in and our last one going next year. Even though we had the money saved in 529's there is always extra costs seemingly. So maybe hanging flat is ok. Kudos to you younger folks that have had the discipline to really save and yes you should enjoy life along the way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 18, 2023, 03:25:47 AM

Never a dull week.

I had a new boss start a couple of weeks ago, and on a short, informal call this week, he told me that he would be changing the structure, and subject to clearance with HQ, I wouldn’t have a job going forward. He doesn’t even know me. His decision is purely based on job title and not what I do, but whatever.

I went through a range of emotions, starting with shock and then anger. Once I calmed down I started to consider that maybe my redundancy might be more profitable than my resignation, which was imminent anyways.

I checked my employment contract and it is not favourable as it provides that I can be terminated at any time with 3 months pay in lieu of notice.

I do wonder whether I can leverage my way to something more favourable, but not really sure how to exit in a professional way but still squeeze the lemon for what I can. Colleagues who have fought their termination in the past have had their reputations dragged through the mud.

I am considering whether to get legal advice to find some avenues to exert some pressure on the organisation, but maybe given that any settlement would be a drop in the ocean relative to my net worth I should just leave quietly without resistance. I definitely wont be able to negotiate a large severance. At best it might be an extra couple of months pay, which might be 0.5%-1.0% of my stash.

Any Australian HR law experts here?

Ps: there is still the chance that HQ blocks my termination…. We will see iif there is any loyalty in the company.

Then I will be back to resigning…. 😂

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 18, 2023, 06:51:31 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 18, 2023, 03:25:47 AM

Never a dull week.

I had a new boss start a couple of weeks ago, and on a short, informal call this week, he told me that he would be changing the structure, and subject to clearance with HQ, I wouldn’t have a job going forward. He doesn’t even know me. His decision is purely based on job title and not what I do, but whatever.

I went through a range of emotions, starting with shock and then anger. Once I calmed down I started to consider that maybe my redundancy might be more profitable than my resignation, which was imminent anyways.

I checked my employment contract and it is not favourable as it provides that I can be terminated at any time with 3 months pay in lieu of notice.

I do wonder whether I can leverage my way to something more favourable, but not really sure how to exit in a professional way but still squeeze the lemon for what I can. Colleagues who have fought their termination in the past have had their reputations dragged through the mud.

I am considering whether to get legal advice to find some avenues to exert some pressure on the organisation, but maybe given that any settlement would be a drop in the ocean relative to my net worth I should just leave quietly without resistance. I definitely wont be able to negotiate a large severance. At best it might be an extra couple of months pay, which might be 0.5%-1.0% of my stash.

Any Australian HR law experts here?

Ps: there is still the chance that HQ blocks my termination…. We will see iif there is any loyalty in the company.

Then I will be back to resigning…. 😂

It sounds like Australia is like the US.  You are an "at will" employee.  Many people in the US don't realize their rights are very limited.

"At Will" - Essentially, this means that the law presumes you can quit your job, with or without notice, for any reason. Likewise, an employer may fire you, with or without notice or cause.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on August 18, 2023, 07:06:03 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 18, 2023, 06:51:31 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 18, 2023, 03:25:47 AM

Never a dull week.

I had a new boss start a couple of weeks ago, and on a short, informal call this week, he told me that he would be changing the structure, and subject to clearance with HQ, I wouldn’t have a job going forward. He doesn’t even know me. His decision is purely based on job title and not what I do, but whatever.

I went through a range of emotions, starting with shock and then anger. Once I calmed down I started to consider that maybe my redundancy might be more profitable than my resignation, which was imminent anyways.

I checked my employment contract and it is not favourable as it provides that I can be terminated at any time with 3 months pay in lieu of notice.

I do wonder whether I can leverage my way to something more favourable, but not really sure how to exit in a professional way but still squeeze the lemon for what I can. Colleagues who have fought their termination in the past have had their reputations dragged through the mud.

I am considering whether to get legal advice to find some avenues to exert some pressure on the organisation, but maybe given that any settlement would be a drop in the ocean relative to my net worth I should just leave quietly without resistance. I definitely wont be able to negotiate a large severance. At best it might be an extra couple of months pay, which might be 0.5%-1.0% of my stash.

Any Australian HR law experts here?

Ps: there is still the chance that HQ blocks my termination…. We will see iif there is any loyalty in the company.

Then I will be back to resigning…. 😂

It sounds like Australia is like the US.  You are an "at will" employee.  Many people in the US don't realize their rights are very limited.

"At Will" - Essentially, this means that the law presumes you can quit your job, with or without notice, for any reason. Likewise, an employer may fire you, with or without notice or cause.

3 months pay for getting fired is much better than anything I ever had.  I'm at will and can be let go today, on the flip side I can also leave today if I want to!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on August 18, 2023, 07:13:00 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 18, 2023, 03:25:47 AM

Never a dull week.

I had a new boss start a couple of weeks ago, and on a short, informal call this week, he told me that he would be changing the structure, and subject to clearance with HQ, I wouldn’t have a job going forward. He doesn’t even know me. His decision is purely based on job title and not what I do, but whatever.

I went through a range of emotions, starting with shock and then anger. Once I calmed down I started to consider that maybe my redundancy might be more profitable than my resignation, which was imminent anyways.

I checked my employment contract and it is not favourable as it provides that I can be terminated at any time with 3 months pay in lieu of notice.

I do wonder whether I can leverage my way to something more favourable, but not really sure how to exit in a professional way but still squeeze the lemon for what I can. Colleagues who have fought their termination in the past have had their reputations dragged through the mud.

I am considering whether to get legal advice to find some avenues to exert some pressure on the organisation, but maybe given that any settlement would be a drop in the ocean relative to my net worth I should just leave quietly without resistance. I definitely wont be able to negotiate a large severance. At best it might be an extra couple of months pay, which might be 0.5%-1.0% of my stash.

Any Australian HR law experts here?

Ps: there is still the chance that HQ blocks my termination…. We will see iif there is any loyalty in the company.

Then I will be back to resigning…. 😂

Not an Australian HR law expert by any stretch.

One thing that would be on the easier side relatively speaking, but not actually easy, would be if you were over a certain age (40 in the US), you could threaten point out that it might be age discrimination.  Here, the company would probably roll over and offer a payment in lieu of a potential ADEA age discrimination lawsuit.  This would happen even though US employment generally is at will.

If it were me, I wouldn't go through the adversarial drag through the mud procedure just for 1%.  I'd probably just try to let it go and maybe hope to pick up some part time or project gigs somewhere else that would be more enjoyable.  But that's just me.  YMMV.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on August 18, 2023, 08:52:59 AM

Quote from: catccc on August 17, 2023, 05:11:30 PM

There are definitely for-profit colleges, too.

True, but they are a really small piece of the pie and really most have been proven out to be a money grab.....and where dies such money come from, the federal government through loans that are not dischargeable.  Until that is when borrowers start paying them back (or not as the case may be) and then the federal government does a hardship forgiveness based on the fact that the for-profit school misrepresented itself and did not meet expectations.....duh, no shit.   And yet the government keeps doing it.   

As another poster said, manage the student loan availability downward and costs, admin, fraud, waste will all go down in kind. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 18, 2023, 09:14:45 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on August 18, 2023, 07:06:03 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 18, 2023, 06:51:31 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 18, 2023, 03:25:47 AM

Never a dull week.

I had a new boss start a couple of weeks ago, and on a short, informal call this week, he told me that he would be changing the structure, and subject to clearance with HQ, I wouldn’t have a job going forward. He doesn’t even know me. His decision is purely based on job title and not what I do, but whatever.

I went through a range of emotions, starting with shock and then anger. Once I calmed down I started to consider that maybe my redundancy might be more profitable than my resignation, which was imminent anyways.

I checked my employment contract and it is not favourable as it provides that I can be terminated at any time with 3 months pay in lieu of notice.

I do wonder whether I can leverage my way to something more favourable, but not really sure how to exit in a professional way but still squeeze the lemon for what I can. Colleagues who have fought their termination in the past have had their reputations dragged through the mud.

I am considering whether to get legal advice to find some avenues to exert some pressure on the organisation, but maybe given that any settlement would be a drop in the ocean relative to my net worth I should just leave quietly without resistance. I definitely wont be able to negotiate a large severance. At best it might be an extra couple of months pay, which might be 0.5%-1.0% of my stash.

Any Australian HR law experts here?

Ps: there is still the chance that HQ blocks my termination…. We will see iif there is any loyalty in the company.

Then I will be back to resigning…. 😂

It sounds like Australia is like the US.  You are an "at will" employee.  Many people in the US don't realize their rights are very limited.

"At Will" - Essentially, this means that the law presumes you can quit your job, with or without notice, for any reason. Likewise, an employer may fire you, with or without notice or cause.

3 months pay for getting fired is much better than anything I ever had.  I'm at will and can be let go today, on the flip side I can also leave today if I want to!

As someone that has worked for a tech megacorp for a long time and has somehow avoided yearly layoffs ( but probably not for much longer ), just take the 3 months and run.  They likely will make you sign a "no sue" document to be able to collect the severance.

These corporations have massive legal departments and have more time and resources than you have.  It just isn't worth fighting it.   I know those that have, and it certainly didn't turn out to be worth it.  The age discrimination argument never works because they select younger people to lay off as well....just enough so the percentages let them escape age discrimination lawsuits.  It sucks, but it is what it is...
 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 18, 2023, 02:48:36 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 18, 2023, 02:34:16 AM

One thing I noticed is alot of people in the 2-4M+ do have pensions which is awesome. I was never fortunate enough to have an opportunity for one but was self employed most my life.

Another thing that is amazing is to see so many people talk about there numbers still swelling. Granted I have been retired now for 9 years and I have a lot of nice things and am always busy doing things but I I have stayed in my budget and I have pretty much the same as I have had since the market had its run up. I guess thats a win in some regards but otherwise things are the same. I am right at 2.4 with a paid of house worth another 1.3M and then some. Like Dicey my wife still works because she loves her job and has off seemingly all the time but she makes didly but gets health insurance for us and still contributes to the max on to get her match on 401k and puts money in our HSA. I will take odd cash jobs here an there because we have an RV and have begone traveling alot around the country. These also are expensive times as we have 2 out of college and 1 in and our last one going next year. Even though we had the money saved in 529's there is always extra costs seemingly. So maybe hanging flat is ok. Kudos to you younger folks that have had the discipline to really save and yes you should enjoy life along the way.

Hey, SLO4, good to hear from you!! If you're cruising around in your RV (as we are), you should consider coming to the Magical Moab Meetup in October. A lot of cool mustachians will be there. There is no formal agenda, just a slew of amazing things to explore with other like-minded folks. The more, the merrier!

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/magical-moab-meetup-2023/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 19, 2023, 03:13:59 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 18, 2023, 09:14:45 AM

These corporations have massive legal departments and have more time and resources than you have.  It just isn't worth fighting it.   I know those that have, and it certainly didn't turn out to be worth it.  The age discrimination argument never works because they select younger people to lay off as well....just enough so the percentages let them escape age discrimination lawsuits.  It sucks, but it is what it is...

Thanks for all of the advice and words from experience.

I’ve given the situation more thought over the weekend and decided not to wait to be made redundant. I’ve decided I will just resign, and leave on my own terms. I was going to FIRE in March anyways.

I feel fairly certain that head office will block the local CEO, at least temporarily. They will also propose a relocation to me I suspect, so being punted could be a long and painful dialogue. I would be absolutely shocked if I walked in to the office in the next few weeks to find I was met with the HR director telling me to pack my box!

In resigning I will have to give 3 months notice, and will be obliged to work as opposed to being given 3 months pay in lieu of notice if terminated by the company, but I won’t be working up a sweat during these final 3 months and definitely won’t be getting on a plane for work. I hate work travel.

For me the benefit of resigning is mainly retaining a bit more control of the situation. This is important to me as I need to manage the lender for our new home construction. It is possible we will be forced to sell our current house and rent for a bit until the new house is built, if the bank freezes my credit once I don’t have an income. I’ll take the time of the 3 months notice period to get on the front foot with the bank, rather than be placed in a pressure situation. Right at the moment seems a great time to be selling in my suburb.

I can’t resign this week for work reasons I won’t disclose here, but Monday 28 August will be the day I give my FIRE notice.

Just writing that I will be retired in 3 months raises the stress levels. I still can’t believe we have the financial capacity to never work again, even if I know it to be the case. Ill be retiring aged 51.

On the plus side, I was already lying in bed last night looking at the NBA draw for the coming season to see who we might be able to watch if we are spending next April mooching around NYC for the month. Somehow we have never visited NYC despite having travelled around 70 countries and I am very much looking forward to having the time for an extended visit that would never be feasible whilst we were working.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 19, 2023, 04:43:03 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 19, 2023, 03:13:59 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 18, 2023, 09:14:45 AM

These corporations have massive legal departments and have more time and resources than you have.  It just isn't worth fighting it.   I know those that have, and it certainly didn't turn out to be worth it.  The age discrimination argument never works because they select younger people to lay off as well....just enough so the percentages let them escape age discrimination lawsuits.  It sucks, but it is what it is...

Thanks for all of the advice and words from experience.

I’ve given the situation more thought over the weekend and decided not to wait to be made redundant. I’ve decided I will just resign, and leave on my own terms. I was going to FIRE in March anyways.

I feel fairly certain that head office will block the local CEO, at least temporarily. They will also propose a relocation to me I suspect, so being punted could be a long and painful dialogue. I would be absolutely shocked if I walked in to the office in the next few weeks to find I was met with the HR director telling me to pack my box!

In resigning I will have to give 3 months notice, and will be obliged to work as opposed to being given 3 months pay in lieu of notice if terminated by the company, but I won’t be working up a sweat during these final 3 months and definitely won’t be getting on a plane for work. I hate work travel.

For me the benefit of resigning is mainly retaining a bit more control of the situation. This is important to me as I need to manage the lender for our new home construction. It is possible we will be forced to sell our current house and rent for a bit until the new house is built, if the bank freezes my credit once I don’t have an income. I’ll take the time of the 3 months notice period to get on the front foot with the bank, rather than be placed in a pressure situation. Right at the moment seems a great time to be selling in my suburb.

I can’t resign this week for work reasons I won’t disclose here, but Monday 28 August will be the day I give my FIRE notice.

Just writing that I will be retired in 3 months raises the stress levels. I still can’t believe we have the financial capacity to never work again, even if I know it to be the case. Ill be retiring aged 51.

On the plus side, I was already lying in bed last night looking at the NBA draw for the coming season to see who we might be able to watch if we are spending next April mooching around NYC for the month. Somehow we have never visited NYC despite having travelled around 70 countries and I am very much looking forward to having the time for an extended visit that would never be feasible whilst we were working.

Sometimes you lose benefits if you quit rather than being laid off.  I'm sure you have looked into this.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 19, 2023, 07:05:33 PM

It is possible that I could be a little better off with a redundancy. Not sure.

However, whatever the amount is, it will be pretty inconsequential. If the stock market goes up 1% it’ll probably be worth more to me.

What is more important to me is to leave in an organised way so I can focus fully on the next phase of my life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 19, 2023, 08:10:22 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 19, 2023, 07:05:33 PM

It is possible that I could be a little better off with a redundancy. Not sure.

However, whatever the amount is, it will be pretty inconsequential. If the stock market goes up 1% it’ll probably be worth more to me.

What is more important to me is to leave in an organised way so I can focus fully on the next phase of my life.

Hmm..why don't you take the 3 months severance instead of resigning?   

At my company, most that get laid off take the severance package ( usually equivalent to 3 months of salary these days ), the severance sum is paid out in a lump sum, and then unemployment is collected ( which varies by state ).  Note that resigning could also nullify eligibility for unemployment, but the rules also vary by state.   Something to look into and think about.

This is in the USA though...not sure how it works in other countries.

Edit  - Fixed unintelligible sentence.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 19, 2023, 08:54:52 PM

In Australia unemployment benefits are means tested. My assets and income will mean I am not eligible for any form of social security.

My current salary means I am not eligible to a redundancy payment and am not protected by unfair dismissal laws.

The law basically says I am rich enough to fend for myself. I guess we all agree on this, otherwise we wouldn’t believe in the concept of financial independence.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 21, 2023, 07:57:14 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 19, 2023, 08:54:52 PM

In Australia unemployment benefits are means tested. My assets and income will mean I am not eligible for any form of social security.

My current salary means I am not eligible to a redundancy payment and am not protected by unfair dismissal laws.

The law basically says I am rich enough to fend for myself. I guess we all agree on this, otherwise we wouldn’t believe in the concept of financial independence.

Wow...that's a bummer!   I never would have thought USA unemployment laws are better than Australia.   However, it does vary tremendously by state. 

I'm from Minnesota, often cited for "one of the worst for state taxes"....but we do have great social programs, great parks, and uhh...cannabis was just legalized, etc...  It actually seems like the state cares about it's citizens.   Not perfect, of course, but FAR better than other states in that regard.  Daughter lives in North Carolina and it is horrendous there when I compare to Minnesota.  And NC isn't even anywhere near the bottom of the list.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on August 21, 2023, 09:15:18 AM

Australian unemployment laws are better. However, you need to understand that unemployment benefits are entirely from the government - they aren’t related to your employment and they aren’t created by you or your employer. They depend on whether you are currently employed or not. If you aren’t employed, you are eligible for unemployment benefits depending upon your ability to keep yourself from destitution.

This is an entirely different concept.

If you have a large amount of savings, such as those in this thread, you can easily keep yourself from destitution, so you become eligible for unemployment benefits much later than others.

People can also privately insure for loss of income, which is effectively what US unemployment benefits appear to me to be - but I may be wrong.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 21, 2023, 11:22:11 AM

We're the "rich bastards" that nobody's supposed to care about.  LOL!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 21, 2023, 04:38:25 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 21, 2023, 07:57:14 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 19, 2023, 08:54:52 PM

In Australia unemployment benefits are means tested. My assets and income will mean I am not eligible for any form of social security.

My current salary means I am not eligible to a redundancy payment and am not protected by unfair dismissal laws.

The law basically says I am rich enough to fend for myself. I guess we all agree on this, otherwise we wouldn’t believe in the concept of financial independence.

Wow...that's a bummer!   I never would have thought USA unemployment laws are better than Australia.   However, it does vary tremendously by state. 

I'm from Minnesota, often cited for "one of the worst for state taxes"....but we do have great social programs, great parks, and uhh...cannabis was just legalized, etc...  It actually seems like the state cares about it's citizens.   Not perfect, of course, but FAR better than other states in that regard.  Daughter lives in North Carolina and it is horrendous there when I compare to Minnesota.  And NC isn't even anywhere near the bottom of the list.

"Land of 10,000 taxes."  I used to live there.  It is a great state.  Maybe, I should move back.  Much better ice fishing than in North Carolina.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: soccerluvof4 on August 23, 2023, 04:50:56 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 18, 2023, 02:48:36 PM

Quote from: soccerluvof4 on August 18, 2023, 02:34:16 AM

One thing I noticed is alot of people in the 2-4M+ do have pensions which is awesome. I was never fortunate enough to have an opportunity for one but was self employed most my life.

Another thing that is amazing is to see so many people talk about there numbers still swelling. Granted I have been retired now for 9 years and I have a lot of nice things and am always busy doing things but I I have stayed in my budget and I have pretty much the same as I have had since the market had its run up. I guess thats a win in some regards but otherwise things are the same. I am right at 2.4 with a paid of house worth another 1.3M and then some. Like Dicey my wife still works because she loves her job and has off seemingly all the time but she makes didly but gets health insurance for us and still contributes to the max on to get her match on 401k and puts money in our HSA. I will take odd cash jobs here an there because we have an RV and have begone traveling alot around the country. These also are expensive times as we have 2 out of college and 1 in and our last one going next year. Even though we had the money saved in 529's there is always extra costs seemingly. So maybe hanging flat is ok. Kudos to you younger folks that have had the discipline to really save and yes you should enjoy life along the way.

Hey, SLO4, good to hear from you!! If you're cruising around in your RV (as we are), you should consider coming to the Magical Moab Meetup in October. A lot of cool mustachians will be there. There is no formal agenda, just a slew of amazing things to explore with other like-minded folks. The more, the merrier!

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/magical-moab-meetup-2023/

Things for thought! I have never had a fall as busy as the one I have now however. Maybe next time!!! Although I am already booking for next year. Also planning on Backpacking any freetime I have to start the Appalachian in March/April.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 25, 2023, 03:53:46 AM

I met with an employment lawyer today just to talk through things ahead of my “next steps” meeting with the CEO on Monday. Was good to get a little guidance. Nothing earth shattering but i felt it was helpful to have an experienced ear to bounce thoughts off. Let’s see if I can negotiate a good exit.

In other very sad news, last night I got a call from the brother of my best friend from high school and through my early 20s. Sadly it was to let me know my great friend had died a day earlier from aggressive cancer. I haven’t seen him for around 10 years as life sent us in different directions in our late 20s, but still it has left me feeling a bit down. I wish the brother could have called a month ago. This is the second close friend from high school that has passed this year. I’m only 51 and they are starting to drop like flies. If I think back to my teens I probably had a group of friends of maybe 20 guys. 3 are already gone. 15% down.

The loss of my friend this week and the pending loss of my career next week feels like a heavy burden tonight. My mood is also causing fights with DW who is very stressed about me not bringing in an income any more. 😔

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Zamboni on August 25, 2023, 04:56:16 AM

Please accept my condolences on the death of your friend. That is really terrible news.

Each day is a gift, and I hope you and DW can patch up the tiff and you can gently let her know how stressed you are and how you need her mental support through this right now regardless of what happens.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on August 25, 2023, 05:50:30 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on August 25, 2023, 03:53:46 AM

I met with an employment lawyer today just to talk through things ahead of my “next steps” meeting with the CEO on Monday. Was good to get a little guidance. Nothing earth shattering but i felt it was helpful to have an experienced ear to bounce thoughts off. Let’s see if I can negotiate a good exit.

In other very sad news, last night I got a call from the brother of my best friend from high school and through my early 20s. Sadly it was to let me know my great friend had died a day earlier from aggressive cancer. I haven’t seen him for around 10 years as life sent us in different directions in our late 20s, but still it has left me feeling a bit down. I wish the brother could have called a month ago. This is the second close friend from high school that has passed this year. I’m only 51 and they are starting to drop like flies. If I think back to my teens I probably had a group of friends of maybe 20 guys. 3 are already gone. 15% down.

The loss of my friend this week and the pending loss of my career next week feels like a heavy burden tonight. My mood is also causing fights with DW who is very stressed about me not bringing in an income any more. 😔

Remind yourselves that you're a strong leader who has amassed an army of Ben Franklins that will protect you and your family.  You've both worked hard and made sacrifices for a good life and a comfortable future.  The future is now and you're still young enough to enjoy it together.  Today is a time to celebrate your achievements and a time to plan the wonderful things you will be doing together.  Get out the champagne.  Put the stress & fighting behind you.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Ozlady on August 25, 2023, 06:55:07 AM

Hi Itchy Feet

So sorry to hear of your friend's passing...

About your wife's worry about you not bringing in any more income, have you shared the numbers with her to reassure her?

It is a major change in both of your lives...and SHE is not YOU...she may need more time and effort to reconcile this new development in BOTH your lives...

Have you tried putting it in Words instead of Talking? sometimes that gives one time to reflect instead of going on the offensive...

All the best...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on August 25, 2023, 07:30:40 AM

Thanks Ozlady. We will get there.

DW is within her rights to be nervous. What we are doing is not normal. None of our friends have retirement on their horizons.

Our situation is complicated by the fact that we will owe the bank a vast sum of money until we sell our Sydney house, whilst we build our new house. And there is always the risk the construction costs on the new house blow out.

DW will be less stressed once we have the debt paid down.

We could sell shares to pay for the new construction if need be, so there really is nothing too much to be stressed about. We also have another house in Brisbane we can sell.

We are pretty well set for a very comfortable early retirement I think. Nonetheless, I am still super anxious about ending my career, as is DW.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 27, 2023, 08:52:38 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on August 16, 2023, 08:33:05 AM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on August 15, 2023, 12:23:19 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 15, 2023, 07:48:38 AM

Small rant time -
I'm just a casual observer, but one would think it would have been possible, especially during and after Covid, to reduce the price of college.  My kids just missed the year or two of Pandemic at-home learning, but this should have been a catalyst for colleges to find cost-cutting opportunities.  There is no doubt in my mind that colleges should be able to leverage technology to continue to provide a high quality education for a lower price.

Once again, America 'does it differently' than other countries and relies on the free market to set prices.  And once again, the consumer is faced with walking in to a 'supermarket' where we want the best product but have no idea what it will cost or how the prices are set, let alone what is the best value.  To complicate it further, things are dependent on which state you just happen to live in, so it's really hard to walk up and down all the aisles in the market and compare.  For the wealthy and well-connected, this supermarket works just fine, but for the casual Joe it's a nightmare.  Other countries have a more socialist approach to higher education, similar to health care.  And just like health care, the American system which worked at one point has now spiraled out of control.  I wonder if we'll ever get Federal action along the lines of an 'Affordable Education Act', given how massive student debt has become?

I've got to completely disagree that America relies on the free market to set prices for college.  The free market would have in no way have led to college being as expensive as it is today.  In no other sector can someone with no income, no assets, no history of credit, etc etc borrow and actually be encouraged to borrow six figures completely unsecured, which leads to millions of people having six figures to spend whereever.  I think colleges could have and probably did find a lot of cost cutting opportunities, but given everyone has access to six figures of borrowing, and no competing college lowered their price, why would they lower their price?

I can both agree and disagree with your statement.  I lived through the "before time" of college finance and through the change and into the "after time".  College costs followed directly the amounts that the federal government allowed for student loan borrowing.  I can remember going to my local bank before every year start and taking out a Federal student loan.  This was strictly limited for everyone.  College costs were set by what students could borrow.  So as an example, my top, private Northeast region technical university cost me $4000 back in the early 80's per semester.  Then Reagan opened the flood gates on student loans, removing all limits.  That same college added a full level of Deans over the existing Deans, directly under the president.  Lots of buildings were built.  The college president makes over a Million dollars.  My son went there for his undergrad engineering degree, like I did.  When he finished, full boat cost (what I paid) was $73k per year.  When I graduated in the mid 80's, I made my entire 4 year cost in about 13 months of working.  For him to do that, he'd have to have started at about $225k a year.  Well, that ain't gonna happen until he's been an engineer for 25 years outside of the Bay area, silly high priced places.

If the Fed were to again set max borrowing at a reasonable level again, guess what?  Colleges would drop their costs.  I know exactly how my alma mater sets it's costs.  It surveys about a dozen similar colleges....technical private top but not MIT level colleges.  Then they plop their cost right exactly in the middle of all of them.  It has nothing to do with actual cost. 

And  when I get calls from alumnae association people looking for donations, I respond "I'm happy to give you what I was given, paying my own way through college nearly 40 years ago.  Zip.  Goodbye.

I’ve got to disagree.  I thought I was going to go back to school 8 years ago to get a 2nd Bachelors.  It was a state school that had a ton of “adult” transfers.  At that time true Federal loans were still limited to $32,000 for a bachelors.  The extra loans are actually private student loans, which are much less regulated but still aren’t bankrupt-able. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 29, 2023, 02:22:36 PM

We'll crap guys.  I'm under a hurricane warning in Florida. I can't even think of how many times I've been in the cone. Two years ago the Louisiana house took a hit and many times before.  I've done all the possibile preps and I'm just waiting on Idalia.  Drove over yesterday from louisiana. Never encountered any sense of panic in stores, at gas pumps or on the road.  Come on Florida!   What's up with that peaceful attitude?  Bring on Florida Man! 🦍

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: By the River on August 29, 2023, 02:28:36 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 29, 2023, 02:22:36 PM

We'll crap guys.  I'm under a hurricane warning in Florida. I can't even think of how many times I've been in the cone. Two years ago the Louisiana house took a hit and many times before.  I've done all the possibile preps and I'm just waiting on Idealia.  Drove over yesterday from louisiana. Never encountered any sense of panic in stores, at gas pumps or on the road.  Come on Florida!   What's up with that peaceful attitude?  Bring on Florida Man! 🦍

Good luck, hope you stay high and dry. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 29, 2023, 02:34:16 PM

Quote from: By the River on August 29, 2023, 02:28:36 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 29, 2023, 02:22:36 PM

We'll crap guys.  I'm under a hurricane warning in Florida. I can't even think of how many times I've been in the cone. Two years ago the Louisiana house took a hit and many times before.  I've done all the possibile preps and I'm just waiting on Idealia.  Drove over yesterday from louisiana. Never encountered any sense of panic in stores, at gas pumps or on the road.  Come on Florida!   What's up with that peaceful attitude?  Bring on Florida Man! 🦍

Good luck, hope you stay high and dry.

Unlike the Louisiana bayou house, the Florida house is high on a hill.  Flooding shouldn't be a issue.  Will lose power and make some roof damage.  It's coming at night and that's always spooky.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on August 29, 2023, 06:58:31 PM

Good luck Bateaux!

I had to pull out the wallet last week for some darn expensive replacement parts for our HVAC right after we bought a bunch of landscape material for some needed updates out back. I was grumbling about the stack-up but then realized today that the market moves the last two days has added many times over the cost to our portfolio. Wouldn’t want it to happen more than every couple decades, but still put things in a positive perspective for me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 30, 2023, 09:18:02 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 29, 2023, 02:34:16 PM

Quote from: By the River on August 29, 2023, 02:28:36 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 29, 2023, 02:22:36 PM

We'll crap guys.  I'm under a hurricane warning in Florida. I can't even think of how many times I've been in the cone. Two years ago the Louisiana house took a hit and many times before.  I've done all the possibile preps and I'm just waiting on Idealia.  Drove over yesterday from louisiana. Never encountered any sense of panic in stores, at gas pumps or on the road.  Come on Florida!   What's up with that peaceful attitude?  Bring on Florida Man! 🦍

Good luck, hope you stay high and dry.

Unlike the Louisiana bayou house, the Florida house is high on a hill.  Flooding shouldn't be a issue.  Will lose power and make some roof damage.  It's coming at night and that's always spooky.

Maybe cold weather and snowstorms aren't so bad.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 30, 2023, 10:52:59 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 30, 2023, 09:18:02 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 29, 2023, 02:34:16 PM

Quote from: By the River on August 29, 2023, 02:28:36 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 29, 2023, 02:22:36 PM

We'll crap guys.  I'm under a hurricane warning in Florida. I can't even think of how many times I've been in the cone. Two years ago the Louisiana house took a hit and many times before.  I've done all the possibile preps and I'm just waiting on Idealia.  Drove over yesterday from louisiana. Never encountered any sense of panic in stores, at gas pumps or on the road.  Come on Florida!   What's up with that peaceful attitude?  Bring on Florida Man! 🦍

Good luck, hope you stay high and dry.

Unlike the Louisiana bayou house, the Florida house is high on a hill.  Flooding shouldn't be a issue.  Will lose power and make some roof damage.  It's coming at night and that's always spooky.

Maybe cold weather and snowstorms aren't so bad.

Haha no doubt!

Love visiting Florida, and we have some family there, but not looking to ever move there for many reasons.   Not a great insurance situation there either, and it will be even worse with the Idalia aftermath.

https://heatmap.news/economy/hurricane-idalia-citizens-insurance

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on August 30, 2023, 12:58:00 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on August 30, 2023, 10:52:59 AM

Quote from: pecunia on August 30, 2023, 09:18:02 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 29, 2023, 02:34:16 PM

Quote from: By the River on August 29, 2023, 02:28:36 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on August 29, 2023, 02:22:36 PM

We'll crap guys.  I'm under a hurricane warning in Florida. I can't even think of how many times I've been in the cone. Two years ago the Louisiana house took a hit and many times before.  I've done all the possibile preps and I'm just waiting on Idealia.  Drove over yesterday from louisiana. Never encountered any sense of panic in stores, at gas pumps or on the road.  Come on Florida!   What's up with that peaceful attitude?  Bring on Florida Man! 🦍

Good luck, hope you stay high and dry.

Unlike the Louisiana bayou house, the Florida house is high on a hill.  Flooding shouldn't be a issue.  Will lose power and make some roof damage.  It's coming at night and that's always spooky.

Maybe cold weather and snowstorms aren't so bad.

Haha no doubt!

Love visiting Florida, and we have some family there, but not looking to ever move there for many reasons.   Not a great insurance situation there either, and it will be even worse with the Idalia aftermath.

https://heatmap.news/economy/hurricane-idalia-citizens-insurance

Wow - That kind of reminds me of Adjustable Rate Mortgages (ARMs). It's another financial time bomb.  However, I don't think it will drag the economy down beyond Florida.  Better to have the snow.  My neighbor moved out and gave me another snow shovel, I'll be ready.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 30, 2023, 01:45:10 PM

Not sure if this is hitting folks up North, but us Southern States are being hit hard by home insurance rate increases.  With all of the wildfire and hurricane issues, my annual premium jumped from $1,800 to $4,200...  and I am supposed to feel lucky that I can even get insurance!  I guess I'll pay it, but since I don't have a mortgage, I'm getting close to my breaking point to go with 'self insurance'...  Put the home insurance savings toward positive ROI like a new roof, solar, etc.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on August 30, 2023, 02:26:59 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 30, 2023, 01:45:10 PM

Not sure if this is hitting folks up North, but us Southern States are being hit hard by home insurance rate increases.  With all of the wildfire and hurricane issues, my annual premium jumped from $1,800 to $4,200...  and I am supposed to feel lucky that I can even get insurance!  I guess I'll pay it, but since I don't have a mortgage, I'm getting close to my breaking point to go with 'self insurance'...  Put the home insurance savings toward positive ROI like a new roof, solar, etc.

Yikes...I guess Minnesota is good for something after all...haha.  Our insurance rates really haven't went up too much at all.  I do actively shop around when they do go up though...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on August 30, 2023, 05:27:46 PM

So far in Western Oregon I have not seen any rate increases. As to insuring the box we live in generally I too question why I'm insuring a loss I could easily cover. The only downside is I am a slumlord and I like having liability insurance which I can't get without house insurance.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on August 31, 2023, 08:00:58 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 30, 2023, 01:45:10 PM

Not sure if this is hitting folks up North, but us Southern States are being hit hard by home insurance rate increases.  With all of the wildfire and hurricane issues, my annual premium jumped from $1,800 to $4,200...  and I am supposed to feel lucky that I can even get insurance!  I guess I'll pay it, but since I don't have a mortgage, I'm getting close to my breaking point to go with 'self insurance'...  Put the home insurance savings toward positive ROI like a new roof, solar, etc.

Wow, that is a big jump.  I haven't really noticed ours in PA increase past inflation in the 20 years we've been in the home and its still below $1k. 

At this point, besides federal taxes, health insurance is the only single line item that stands out as significant anymore in our budget and has definitely shot up (it has moved from $4k in 2011 to $28k today)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on August 31, 2023, 08:18:02 AM

Hey guys. Everything is good here.  Cleaned up the yard yesterday. Nothing worse than an afternoon thunderstorm here. Folks to the north took a punch. Perry Florida, lovely old Florida town was hurt badly. The low areas along the entire west coast of Florida had some degree of flooding. I'm probably going bicycling today and hoping to get a volunteer request from Team Rubicon.  If not I may volunteer in some other way.  I've had plenty experience with muck outs after floods.
Thus far this has just been vacation time in Florida for me and I'm not complaining.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on August 31, 2023, 08:33:34 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 30, 2023, 05:27:46 PM

So far in Western Oregon I have not seen any rate increases. As to insuring the box we live in generally I too question why I'm insuring a loss I could easily cover. The only downside is I am a slumlord and I like having liability insurance which I can't get without house insurance.

When I had a paid off place, I noticed I could drop my rate significantly by having a huge deductible.  Far larger than was allowed by my mortgage company.  Which let me keep the large liability at a lower price.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on August 31, 2023, 10:40:10 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 31, 2023, 08:33:34 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 30, 2023, 05:27:46 PM

So far in Western Oregon I have not seen any rate increases. As to insuring the box we live in generally I too question why I'm insuring a loss I could easily cover. The only downside is I am a slumlord and I like having liability insurance which I can't get without house insurance.

When I had a paid off place, I noticed I could drop my rate significantly by having a huge deductible.  Far larger than was allowed by my mortgage company.  Which let me keep the large liability at a lower price.

As a matter of fact, I just increased the deductible on my home insurance to $2500 which is the most that my insurer allows. This brought down the cost by $500 per year to $2000.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on August 31, 2023, 12:35:39 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on August 31, 2023, 10:40:10 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on August 31, 2023, 08:33:34 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on August 30, 2023, 05:27:46 PM

So far in Western Oregon I have not seen any rate increases. As to insuring the box we live in generally I too question why I'm insuring a loss I could easily cover. The only downside is I am a slumlord and I like having liability insurance which I can't get without house insurance.

When I had a paid off place, I noticed I could drop my rate significantly by having a huge deductible.  Far larger than was allowed by my mortgage company.  Which let me keep the large liability at a lower price.

As a matter of fact, I just increased the deductible on my home insurance to $2500 which is the most that my insurer allows. This brought down the cost by $500 per year to $2000.

I've increased my deductible to 3% for wind, hail, hurricane and 2% all peril in order to get down to $3,617...  That would be like $15,000 before my insurance starts paying after a hurricane...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on August 31, 2023, 01:44:35 PM

Glad you're okay @Bateaux. Sorry for the many who are not.   

In other insurance-related news, we just got the annual bill for our (old car) auto insurance...and it was the same as last year! Can't say the same for our four homeowner's policies, but it's an unexpected surprise.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 02, 2023, 01:03:29 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 31, 2023, 01:44:35 PM

Glad you're okay @Bateaux. Sorry for the many who are not.   

In other insurance-related news, we just got the annual bill for our (old car) auto insurance...and it was the same as last year! Can't say the same for our four homeowner's policies, but it's an unexpected surprise.

Spent the day yesterday with volunteers and residents of Cedar Key Florida. I was ripping out carpets and furniture in a 150 year old church that had never flooded before. 
Today I'll be driving into Perry Florida to do much of the same with Team Rubicon.  Why'd I wanna quit my easy inside job, to volunteer and do shitty work?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 02, 2023, 07:54:46 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 02, 2023, 01:03:29 AM

Quote from: Dicey on August 31, 2023, 01:44:35 PM

Glad you're okay @Bateaux. Sorry for the many who are not.   

In other insurance-related news, we just got the annual bill for our (old car) auto insurance...and it was the same as last year! Can't say the same for our four homeowner's policies, but it's an unexpected surprise.

Spent the day yesterday with volunteers and residents of Cedar Key Florida. I was ripping out carpets and furniture in a 150 year old church that had never flooded before. 
Today I'll be driving into Perry Florida to do much of the same with Team Rubicon.  Why'd I wanna quit my easy inside job, to volunteer and do shitty work?

Maybe you will do the world more good as a retired person.  You do set a fine example for some of us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on September 03, 2023, 07:15:47 AM

One of the best cartoons I have come across: https://timetrabble.com/mousetrap/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 04, 2023, 09:55:59 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 03, 2023, 07:15:47 AM

One of the best cartoons I have come across: https://timetrabble.com/mousetrap/

I think that was more true of previous generations, I don't think either of my children will have any chance of a 30 year cube job...  From what I'm seeing modern work become, 30 years in an unchanging cube might actually not seem that bad.  For instance, being a teacher or nurse has gone way down hill...  Ironically as FIRE becomes more desirable it is also becoming less attainable (at least in the traditional 'retirement with pension-like bulletproof FI', but even FIRE has been redefined to just mean 'flexible working' for many people)...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 04, 2023, 11:51:29 AM

I never really worked a cubicle job, but I love that cartoon!

Being FIRE was absolutely worth the thousands upon thousands of tiny yes/no decisions that got me across the finish line. It took me a little longer, because I smelled a lot of roses (frugally) along the way, but my current self thanks past Dicey every single day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on September 04, 2023, 04:18:15 PM

This FIRE business is hard….

So, as anticipated, my new boss sought approval from HQ to terminate my contract. Senior management weren’t entirely on board with that and have offered me a promotion if I agree to move to HQ in Paris.

The money is big and it comes with all the expatriation fruit.

I believe we have our “enough”, but 2 years in France on @ very high salary wouldn’t be entirely horrible. It doesn’t radically change the financial landscape though.

As I have previously mentioned I am 51 and DW 45, so we are not super young but not super old either.

90% sure we will continue with the A plan to ride off into the sunset, but somehow I haven’t been able to press send on the politely declining email.

Argh.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on September 04, 2023, 06:19:10 PM

Isn’t working in France practically early retirement anyway?  Mandatory weekends and many weeks off. Opportunities for weekend train travel around France and adjacent countries.  I don’t know… that could be okay.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on September 04, 2023, 06:34:28 PM

Yes, it could be ok.

But on the other hand, if we want to live in France we could also do that without the work part. Well for 3 month at a time as that is the length of a tourist visa.

And as a tourist I wont need to worry about the day to day hassle of managing life in a foreign land, where you dont quite understand how things work, and dealing with foreign bureaucrats.

Having been an expat once already the first 12 months are pretty hard yards. After the initial baptism I am sure the French life is as good as any in the world.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on September 04, 2023, 07:02:03 PM

I would try to come up with a dollar per workday figure and see if it's worth it on that scale.  $$$K / 2 years is hard to grok, but $$$ / day is more granular and may help you make the decision.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on September 04, 2023, 07:17:25 PM

Isn’t working in France practically early retirement anyway?  Mandatory weekends and many weeks off. Opportunities for weekend train travel around France and adjacent countries.  I don’t know… that could be okay.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 04, 2023, 08:29:14 PM

I did just over a year in Paris in 2019 if you have any questions.  2 years with expat frills is eminently do-able.  Some of the hardest stuff is securing housing and settling in to a routine, so doing it as an expat is probably easier than as a tourist / visitor.  The traffic is horrible, but public transit is good and I was in great shape walking so much.  Language barrier isn't as bad as you may be thinking, but hopefully work can lend a hand when you need a native speaker (like setting up furnishings, cell phones, utilities, hopefully some cultural courses)...  Climate is pretty good, plenty of things to do in the evening and weekends, good trains to other parts of France, Spain, Italy, and learning some French isn't the worst thing...  Not sure what your retirement dreams are, but travel is one of mine so being an expat is a reasonable tradeoff while waiting for an empty nest before jumping in to ER.  Just my unsolicited 2 cents :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on September 04, 2023, 08:37:17 PM

Thanks for the unsolicited 2 cents. Very much appreciated.

Travel is indeed part of our ER planning, but something we have carefully budgeted for.

I am very flattered that my employer is willing to pay over the odds to keep me in the company, but I have been saving for so long to reach the ER goal, and I love my life in Australia, so I do feel that I’d be better off closing my eyes to the potential additional earnings, and opt for freedom.

In any case, even though the salary is great it only represents about 5% or so (considering taxes) of our net worth for each year of additional servitude. Adding an additional 10% onto our pile, assuming we stick it out for 2 years, is nice but not life changing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on September 04, 2023, 09:16:03 PM

Salary might total 10% of NW, but average returns in those two years could be another 16%. That would make the NW jump up ~25% (simplified math, folks, simplified math). Would that change things?

Also, can you tell that I’m OMY’ing?  I’m a similar age. Maybe I need to hear your arguments for RE now… for my own sake!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: baludon on September 04, 2023, 09:40:00 PM

It sounds like you’re ready to pop smoke. Probably better to go and ahead and retire. Claim your time back and you’ll have the option to spend three months in France without any demands from work if you wish.

Having lived overseas, I find the initial year to be exciting but eventually wanes as the realities of living in a country as a foreigner sinks in.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on September 05, 2023, 12:40:35 AM

I can't believe that people are actually convincing you to work an additional two years when you're already in the beyond FI category.....

How many healthy and able bodied years do you have before older and less enthusiastic itchyfeet manifests? What % of those years does 2 represent? That's right, no one can give you that answer....is that a gamble you're comfortable with? The world is open and travel is relatively painless right now, 2020-2021 could happen all over again, do you want to take that risk two years from now?

Most of you are going to die very rich, I'm curious who will regret not working longer and who will regret working too long.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on September 05, 2023, 02:26:51 AM

The only reason I'd take an offer like that is if I or OH was genuinely excited about living and working in that country (or if I needed the money).

It doesn't sound like either of those are the case for you, and France is so far that going back to Oz even for big celebrations let alone smaller catch up with friends is going to be very limited.  If Oz is where you have built a life and want to settle (subject to some medium term travel) personally I'd be continuing to invest my social and community capital in that...

But I am tired and a bit broken and have only very small/limited elements of wanderlust, so YMMV!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on September 05, 2023, 05:34:27 AM

Thanks for everyone’s thoughts. Great to see that even in this forum there are a broad spectrum of views.

I have declined the offer.

I have done my stint as an expat for 6 years. I am content back in Australia. I have no real desire to live elsewhere. The money was a bit tempting, but not tempting enough.

I have been to Paris many times and have never had any desire to live there. However, it is a nice place to visit as a tourist with my better half. France is a beautiful country.

So I am now back to trying to secure a small severance. If I don’t get one before the 20th of this month I will give notice. I suspect that’s where it will end up, although I ramped up the effort today by being blatant with HR that the new CEO is making my ongoing employment untenable with his efforts to encourage me to resign. I really wish I knew the true reason he is hell bent on seeing the back of me. If they terminate my employment I will get 13 weeks notice, 8 weeks redundancy (confirmed with a lawyer) and 6 weeks leave owing to me, so basically 6 months pay on the way out. I’lll try and negotiate to get my 2023 bonus since I’ll have worked the whole year. If I resign, definitely no bonus and no 8 weeks redundancy.

I need to give notice by the 20th as I want to be retired before Christmas so I can properly celebrate the holiday season. Contractually, I have to give 3 months notice.

I have organised for a real estate agent to come round this week to hopefully give me a more independent valuation on our house. This is to double check where our Net Worth stands. We are still sticking with the plan to sell our current house only once we can move into the new place, which should be June next year. The sale price of our house is pretty important to our FIRE budget.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on September 05, 2023, 06:17:17 AM

Congratulations on making the decision!! Hopefully that feels good.

If you needed a few more days to negotiate can you stretch it a bit beyond 20th and take annual leave to make sure you still retire in time for Christmas? I don't know how things work in Australia but it seems like they're saving a lot of cash and risk if you jump rather than get pushed so it should be worth something to them for you to walk voluntarily....  I would really hope you'd get your bonus anyway (we do pay bonuses to leavers unless they are going to a direct competitor, but maybe we are weird?)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 05, 2023, 07:38:48 AM

Quote from: 2Birds1Stone on September 05, 2023, 12:40:35 AM

I can't believe that people are actually convincing you to work an additional two years when you're already in the beyond FI category.....

How many healthy and able bodied years do you have before older and less enthusiastic itchyfeet manifests? What % of those years does 2 represent? That's right, no one can give you that answer....is that a gamble you're comfortable with? The world is open and travel is relatively painless right now, 2020-2021 could happen all over again, do you want to take that risk two years from now?

Most of you are going to die very rich, I'm curious who will regret not working longer and who will regret working too long.

I guess that's what makes the FIRE discussions endless and interesting.  There are so many different situations out there.  For me personally, I didn't do the Paris assignment in 2019 for the extra income, I've been FI and fat FI now for years, I just enjoy a change of routine and a challenge.  I pushed myself to speak French at Total during lunch and learned so much about growing up in France, attending school, etc. from my Total colleagues...  For me, expat assignments have added life to my years - I look back at each one fondly now as I get ready to send our second child off to college in a year. 

What other things would I be doing as a second SAHP while my kids were in school?  For my situation, continuing to work past FI has been something I've never regretted, but I understand that many people come to MMM and FIRE totally burned out on work and thinking early retirement is blissful nirvana.  My wife was "ER" and eventually found it to be meh.  I was very focused on FI in my 20's, but once my working situation improved with a new employer and fat-FI was secured, I've found working on my terms to continue to add life to my years.  And the extra money has allowed me to experiment with things like buying new cars, Ozempic, travel, home improvements, additional real estate, and generally not worry about not optimizing...  I can lose 75% of my NW and still be FI, so I'm definitely not working to increase my NW.  To each their own though, I understand everyone has a very specific nuanced situation as well as life experiences that bring them to this forum.

On a side note, I've been thinking a lot lately about more ways to add life to my years.  Ozempic has been a real break through, I think I'm healthier now than I was a year or even possibly 5 years ago...  I'd love to find more things like that, things that also come with bringing more purpose and intention to my 50's that I'm about to embark on, now that the child-raising phase is becoming less intense...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 05, 2023, 09:34:03 AM

Also, since I'm feeling philosophical today, I'll add that I had many reservations in early 2019 about taking the overseas assignment.  Hindsight is 20-20 now, with the Pandemic making the year of exhausting travel much more worthwhile, since I then had 2 years working from home...  We all make the best decisions we can with limited information, I'm no genius or guru when it comes to telling others what decisions will turn out best for them!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on September 05, 2023, 02:57:04 PM

I’m 100% aligned with you on this,

I was carefully considering the Paris posting as an adventure. The discussion with my wife really focussed on if we don’t go to Paris are we making our lives a little less rich.

The decision was not an easy one, but I now it’s taken I feel very good about not moving overseas again to live.

Even though I will FIRE before Christmas, I am warming to the idea that this might end up being a 12 month sabbatical and I might take another job, not for the money but for purpose.

There are no rules, being FI means you are the rule maker for your life. Nobody else.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 05, 2023, 03:45:43 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 05, 2023, 02:57:04 PM

I’m 100% aligned with you on this,

I was carefully considering the Paris posting as an adventure. The discussion with my wife really focussed on if we don’t go to Paris are we making our lives a little less rich.

The decision was not an easy one, but I now it’s taken I feel very good about not moving overseas again to live.

Even though I will FIRE before Christmas, I am warming to the idea that this might end up being a 12 month sabbatical and I might take another job, not for the money but for purpose.

 There are no rules, being FI means you are the rule maker for your life. Nobody else. .

This is brilliant.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 05, 2023, 04:06:54 PM

Quote from: Dicey on September 05, 2023, 03:45:43 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 05, 2023, 02:57:04 PM

I’m 100% aligned with you on this,

I was carefully considering the Paris posting as an adventure. The discussion with my wife really focussed on if we don’t go to Paris are we making our lives a little less rich.

The decision was not an easy one, but I now it’s taken I feel very good about not moving overseas again to live.

Even though I will FIRE before Christmas, I am warming to the idea that this might end up being a 12 month sabbatical and I might take another job, not for the money but for purpose.

 There are no rules, being FI means you are the rule maker for your life. Nobody else. .

This is brilliant.

You know - other than morality - it applies even if you are not FI.  I think a lot of us never realized how free we actually were.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on September 05, 2023, 04:34:17 PM

I certainly didn't.  When I had kids and was forced to delegate more I finally realised I should have focused on getting better at that *years* earlier.  And now I'm working very part time (less than a day a week usually) simply to see how it feels to do that, I find that actually it pays enough to pretty much cover my living expenses anyway, so that's also something I could have done a few years earlier if I'd chosen.

Often we're trapped not so much by circumstances but rather simply by our own exhaustion and lack of mental bandwidth to think of how we might be able to do things differently....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 05, 2023, 04:40:05 PM

And these discussions are why I love this forum.  Most people in my life have no concept of FI and making decisions independent of money...  Even people that have financial security seem to need to live right up to the edge of what they can spend, even if it requires spending hundreds of thousands of dollars each year.  Some folks just love the treadmill and every opportunity to crank it up a notch.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 07, 2023, 03:22:39 PM

Hey guys. I'm back in my Florida home after nearly a week in the hurricane zone with Team Rubicon in Perry Florida. They got it really bad. I saw some really awful situations. Some of these people were suffering before the storm. Now their situation is down right dire. I've seen it before, running medical calls as a volunteer firefighter. I'm glad I went and I'm glad that I'm gone for now. It's like waking up from a bad dream. Now, I'm air-conditioned in a 4100 square foot home, party of one. We were sleeping 40+ volunteers in an unairconditioned church maybe 2000 square feet. No running water, no means of cooking food and portable toilets roasting in Florida heat. Unfortunately it's 100 miles away. Too far to commute and too far for me to rehabilitate the responders. How I'd love to offer them my 4 bathrooms. My pool, my bedrooms, couches, refrigerators, kitchens and full bar.
I've put in an application for the Cajun Navy. If you're in the south you've probably heard of them. They were in Perry Florida helping out like many fine relief organizations. They are a little more my style and I know the dialect. Nothing against Team Rubicon, I'll continue to be a member and plan to be on many more responses with them. I'm wanting a more active role going forward. We'll see if that's Cajun Navy for me.
Join and volunteer if you're able at a good civic organization. It's type two fun. You really can't appreciate it until after a few days of comfort.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on September 07, 2023, 08:34:42 PM

@Bateaux - hearing about your experience is so inspiring! Thanks for sharing, and this was a good reminder for me to look more broadly at opportunities.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on September 07, 2023, 08:55:20 PM

@Bateaux, thanks for being a great citizen!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on September 08, 2023, 01:07:58 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on September 07, 2023, 08:55:20 PM

@Bateaux, thanks for being a great citizen!

Hear, hear. Thank you for your service, @Bateaux .

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on September 18, 2023, 09:23:42 PM

Finally got my K-1 from the accountant for our company, so I today I finished up with all the data entry in TurboTax. We’re getting a ridiculously large tax return.  Conclusion:  taxes in the US are way too complicated. I miss the 1040EZ.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on September 23, 2023, 04:15:24 PM

Sadly I am a FIRE flop. FIRE was in my grasp and I dropped the ball.

But I would say my tale is a story of the power of being FI.

Quick recap: I was notified I would be made redundant. Then Paris HQ reached out to say they still wanted me in the company and had another position in mind for me. I declined.

Then came the improved offer.

Where we have ended up is I will be able to work from Australia 3 months a year, and Paris 9 months a year. Work will pay for flights and an apartment in Paris. I will get 6 weeks leave a year. The money is good. The company will pay for private tuition to learn French.

So one more paid adventure in my life! We are moving to France…. Kind of…. I have already secured some tickets for the Olympics next year and plan on enjoying a couple of years in Europe.

I have drifted so far away from what I had in mind when I first discovered FIRE. But at least I will never need to worry about money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on September 23, 2023, 06:02:24 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 23, 2023, 04:15:24 PM

Where we have ended up is I will be able to work from Australia 3 months a year, and Paris 9 months a year. Work will pay for flights and an apartment in Paris. I will get 6 weeks leave a year. The money is good. The company will pay for private tuition to learn French.

So one more paid adventure in my life! We are moving to France…. Kind of…. I have already secured some tickets for the Olympics next year and plan on enjoying a couple of years in Europe.

I have drifted so far away from what I had in mind when I first discovered FIRE. But at least I will never need to worry about money.

That sounds like such a lucrative offer, anyone would have a hard time passing it up.

But I have to say that retirement has completely changed me - I now value independence so much that I just hate the thought of having to do what somebody tells me to do. I recently turned down a generous offer from my old company to come back for a stint. The happiest time of the day is right after breakfast when I figure out what I want to do for the day. Those of you who have kids, will recognize this :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: baludon on September 23, 2023, 09:07:19 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 23, 2023, 06:02:24 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 23, 2023, 04:15:24 PM

Where we have ended up is I will be able to work from Australia 3 months a year, and Paris 9 months a year. Work will pay for flights and an apartment in Paris. I will get 6 weeks leave a year. The money is good. The company will pay for private tuition to learn French.

So one more paid adventure in my life! We are moving to France…. Kind of…. I have already secured some tickets for the Olympics next year and plan on enjoying a couple of years in Europe.

I have drifted so far away from what I had in mind when I first discovered FIRE. But at least I will never need to worry about money.

That sounds like such a lucrative offer, anyone would have a hard time passing it up.

But I have to say that retirement has completely changed me - I now value independence so much that I just hate the thought of having to do what somebody tells me to do. I recently turned down a generous offer from my old company to come back for a stint. The happiest time of the day is right after breakfast when I figure out what I want to do for the day. Those of you who have kids, will recognize this :-)

Though I have only been retired for six months, I feel the same.  I loved my previous job but I would not go back. The feeling I get when I get up in the morning and see that my day is free and I get to do a lot of nothing if I want is liberating.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on September 24, 2023, 12:18:37 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 23, 2023, 06:02:24 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 23, 2023, 04:15:24 PM

Where we have ended up is I will be able to work from Australia 3 months a year, and Paris 9 months a year. Work will pay for flights and an apartment in Paris. I will get 6 weeks leave a year. The money is good. The company will pay for private tuition to learn French.

So one more paid adventure in my life! We are moving to France…. Kind of…. I have already secured some tickets for the Olympics next year and plan on enjoying a couple of years in Europe.

I have drifted so far away from what I had in mind when I first discovered FIRE. But at least I will never need to worry about money.

That sounds like such a lucrative offer, anyone would have a hard time passing it up.

But I have to say that retirement has completely changed me - I now value independence so much that I just hate the thought of having to do what somebody tells me to do. I recently turned down a generous offer from my old company to come back for a stint. The happiest time of the day is right after breakfast when I figure out what I want to do for the day. Those of you who have kids, will recognize this :-)

I went back to.work.last November after 3+ years of fire,   that is my number one issue....I hate not controlling my time (and the commute on top of it).  I am good at the job and if you leave out all the corporate bs/commute and fous just on the pure role of what I do I like it, but even then I find myself not motivated and sometimes self-sabotaging in hopes of being asked to leave solely bc of the "controlling myself" issue.   

I am taking it month to month right now.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on September 24, 2023, 01:24:09 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 23, 2023, 04:15:24 PM

Sadly I am a FIRE flop. FIRE was in my grasp and I dropped the ball.

But I would say my tale is a story of the power of being FI.

Quick recap: I was notified I would be made redundant. Then Paris HQ reached out to say they still wanted me in the company and had another position in mind for me. I declined.

Then came the improved offer.

Where we have ended up is I will be able to work from Australia 3 months a year, and Paris 9 months a year. Work will pay for flights and an apartment in Paris. I will get 6 weeks leave a year. The money is good. The company will pay for private tuition to learn French.

So one more paid adventure in my life! We are moving to France…. Kind of…. I have already secured some tickets for the Olympics next year and plan on enjoying a couple of years in Europe.

I have drifted so far away from what I had in mind when I first discovered FIRE. But at least I will never need to worry about money.

If it's exciting and a bit of an adventure then go for it. If it stops being fun and you want to quit you have the option. Leaning French sounds great actually.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on September 24, 2023, 02:23:17 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on September 24, 2023, 01:24:09 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 23, 2023, 04:15:24 PM

Sadly I am a FIRE flop. FIRE was in my grasp and I dropped the ball.

But I would say my tale is a story of the power of being FI.

Quick recap: I was notified I would be made redundant. Then Paris HQ reached out to say they still wanted me in the company and had another position in mind for me. I declined.

Then came the improved offer.

Where we have ended up is I will be able to work from Australia 3 months a year, and Paris 9 months a year. Work will pay for flights and an apartment in Paris. I will get 6 weeks leave a year. The money is good. The company will pay for private tuition to learn French.

So one more paid adventure in my life! We are moving to France…. Kind of…. I have already secured some tickets for the Olympics next year and plan on enjoying a couple of years in Europe.

I have drifted so far away from what I had in mind when I first discovered FIRE. But at least I will never need to worry about money.

If it's exciting and a bit of an adventure then go for it. If it stops being fun and you want to quit you have the option. Leaning French sounds great actually.

Given where Bateaux lives, I assume any additional French he learns would be très facile.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 24, 2023, 02:38:22 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on September 23, 2023, 06:02:24 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 23, 2023, 04:15:24 PM

Where we have ended up is I will be able to work from Australia 3 months a year, and Paris 9 months a year. Work will pay for flights and an apartment in Paris. I will get 6 weeks leave a year. The money is good. The company will pay for private tuition to learn French.

So one more paid adventure in my life! We are moving to France…. Kind of…. I have already secured some tickets for the Olympics next year and plan on enjoying a couple of years in Europe.

I have drifted so far away from what I had in mind when I first discovered FIRE. But at least I will never need to worry about money.

That sounds like such a lucrative offer, anyone would have a hard time passing it up.

But I have to say that retirement has completely changed me - I now value independence so much that I just hate the thought of having to do what somebody tells me to do. I recently turned down a generous offer from my old company to come back for a stint. The happiest time of the day is right after breakfast when I figure out what I want to do for the day. Those of you who have kids, will recognize this :-)

Yeah, this is the great thing about FI - there are no bad choices.  Even if you make a bad decision, it's fairly easy to fix.

FWIW, I'm the counterbalance to people who relish their free time - I find myself to be more satisfied at the end of the week with the current structure and tradeoffs.  My time is precious, it's good to know I still have the emergency relief valve of ER to reclaim more of it, but I'm also glad I didn't pull the ripcord too early and become complacent about endless time.  In another way of looking at it - right now money is unconstrained, and I'm enjoying exploring new things while the income above and beyond FI continues to flow freely, things that I might not do without the firehose of money.  I look forward to ER, but also realize that there is a honeymoon period.  I have seen many people's new thrill of 'retirement' fade after 10 years...  it just becomes normal.  Like anything, moderation is key.  If ER is actually the optimal lifestyle for the majority, it will become the norm.  For example, if being a hippie was so great, we'd see more hippies.  Instead, being DINKs is more common nowadays.  But we're always at a unique time in history full of change - new technologies, shifting social norms, etc.  Nobody knows for sure what will be the best choices for the years ahead.  For example, I was extra glad to have a job during the pandemic...  Who knows if another pandemic (or resurgence of Covid) is coming, shutting down international travel again...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on September 24, 2023, 02:47:11 PM

I'm kind of enjoying being FI-not-RE.  Having an income is great, but knowing that I can walk away from it is liberating also.  I'm happy that we have kept our spending in check over time, and we're at fat-FIRE levels these days, so working allows the stash to do its own work, and we add to it, and meanwhile we can do the things we like to do without any concerns.  I still sometimes want RE, and who knows, maybe I'll choose that option sooner rather than later, but I think what I like best about FI is the ability to choose the obligations I take on, even through work.  And meeting those obligations becomes more about integrity and good relationships than about the need for money, so I don't have to sell my soul for the dollar.

ETA:  I do worry that I'm becoming increasingly out of touch with the economic reality for most people.  Even people I work with who have had salaries larger than mine and for longer, do not seem to have the long term investment assets and short term cushion that we have.  They could, but they chose differently.  I'm finding I need to be careful before spilling to much.

I do have a couple friends who have 7-figure net worths and similar lifestyles (make a lot and spend a lot less than they make).  It's nice to be able to compare notes on taxes or investments or other things without judgement.  I can't do that with some other friends who are kind of just getting by, or with the couple of friends who make so much more and spend so much more that it's just sort of sensitive and difficult to talk about.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on September 24, 2023, 02:48:54 PM

I’ve been retired for 13 years, and I disagree. I’m still thrilled that I’m retired. Every day.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on September 24, 2023, 02:54:23 PM

Quote from: deborah on September 24, 2023, 02:48:54 PM

I’ve been retired for 13 years, and I disagree. I’m still thrilled that I’m retired. Every day.

Yet another post that demonstrates a need for the forum to have a "Like" button.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on September 24, 2023, 03:56:43 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on September 24, 2023, 02:47:11 PM

I do have a couple friends who have 7-figure net worths and similar lifestyles (make a lot and spend a lot less than they make).  It's nice to be able to compare notes on taxes or investments or other things without judgement.  I can't do that with some other friends who are kind of just getting by, or with the couple of friends who make so much more and spend so much more that it's just sort of sensitive and difficult to talk about.

I have a group of college friends I meet a few times a year for lunch - we have been doing this for many years. Several of them made very substantial money working for hedge funds and big Wall Street companies like Goldman. And yet, based on some hints they have dropped over the years, I am pretty sure I have more in savings than some of them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on September 24, 2023, 05:59:48 PM

I really look forward to putting myself in that position.

I dont know why I took the job.

Probably a little bit of ego from being still wanted. Probably still a little fear that I was overly optimistic in my FIRE assumptions mixed with a little fear I might get a bit bored in retirement. Te DW was also very keen on this adventure and was pushing for it.

We will see how it goes. If it isnt great, FIRE is just a plane ride away.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 25, 2023, 06:44:57 AM

Quote from: deborah on September 24, 2023, 02:48:54 PM

I’ve been retired for 13 years, and I disagree. I’m still thrilled that I’m retired. Every day.

That's another great thing about being part of a FIRE community, we set ourselves up for more successful retirement experiences than retirees in general.  Many folks I know IRL are unemployed or underemployed and didn't have much of a plan, even folks that are what I'd consider to be 'retirement age'!  When the choice is in your hands and have reached FI, you've stacked the odds as much as possible in your favor toward having a successful outcome!  Seems like common sense, yet many people are shocked when I tell them I've had this FIRE 'hobby' since my first job in my 20's...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Louise on September 25, 2023, 07:04:55 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 24, 2023, 05:59:48 PM

I really look forward to putting myself in that position.

I dont know why I took the job.

Probably a little bit of ego from being still wanted. Probably still a little fear that I was overly optimistic in my FIRE assumptions mixed with a little fear I might get a bit bored in retirement. Te DW was also very keen on this adventure and was pushing for it.

We will see how it goes. If it isnt great, FIRE is just a plane ride away.

It honestly sounds like a nice adventure to me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: solon on September 25, 2023, 09:03:39 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on September 24, 2023, 02:54:23 PM

Quote from: deborah on September 24, 2023, 02:48:54 PM

I’ve been retired for 13 years, and I disagree. I’m still thrilled that I’m retired. Every day.

Yet another post that demonstrates a need for the forum to have a "Like" button.

👍

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on September 25, 2023, 11:09:42 AM

Quote from: deborah on September 24, 2023, 02:48:54 PM

I’ve been retired for 13 years, and I disagree. I’m still thrilled that I’m retired. Every day.

12/05/12 is the day I pulled the trigger and I haven't regretted a single moment since.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on September 25, 2023, 11:52:46 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 24, 2023, 05:59:48 PM

I really look forward to putting myself in that position.

I dont know why I took the job.

Probably a little bit of ego from being still wanted. Probably still a little fear that I was overly optimistic in my FIRE assumptions mixed with a little fear I might get a bit bored in retirement. Te DW was also very keen on this adventure and was pushing for it.

We will see how it goes. If it isnt great, FIRE is just a plane ride away.

I hope you enjoy your adventure!
Just be wary of doing things because you think you “should” versus because you really want to and are excited.
**speaking from experience. Cough.**

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on September 25, 2023, 11:59:23 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 24, 2023, 05:59:48 PM

I really look forward to putting myself in that position.

I dont know why I took the job.

Probably a little bit of ego from being still wanted. Probably still a little fear that I was overly optimistic in my FIRE assumptions mixed with a little fear I might get a bit bored in retirement. Te DW was also very keen on this adventure and was pushing for it.

We will see how it goes. If it isnt great, FIRE is just a plane ride away.

The way you seemed to be waffling on it, and the fact your employer seems to really want to keep you ( well..in France anyways...haha ), I had my doubts that you were actually going to FIRE.

I guess I was correct!  And good for you - this sounds like an adventure more than work!  Paris should be very interesting.  Make sure to do lots of traveling around while you are there.  Being from the USA, I'm always amazed at how great the transportation system is in Western Europe...and how small the countries are!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on September 27, 2023, 11:11:13 PM

Also, since you’re already FI, it could be possible to reduce your savings rate and use some of that money to pay for those weekend trips on the wonderful Western European transportation systems…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on September 28, 2023, 06:06:18 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on September 27, 2023, 11:11:13 PM

Also, since you’re already FI, it could be possible to reduce your savings rate and use some of that money to pay for those weekend trips on the wonderful Western European transportation systems…

That’s the plan. After years and years saving half what we earned, now we will be spending all that we earn and our savings will still keep climbing at probably even more than we are earning.

Still, old habit die hard.

The company provided housing budget I have been given is enough for a nice 1 bedroom apartment in the more expensive arrondissements in Paris, but not enough for a nice 2 bedroom apartment for when we have visitors. Despite money not being an issue we still can’t bring ourselves to shell out the extra. Lol.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on September 28, 2023, 10:43:22 AM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 28, 2023, 06:06:18 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on September 27, 2023, 11:11:13 PM

Also, since you’re already FI, it could be possible to reduce your savings rate and use some of that money to pay for those weekend trips on the wonderful Western European transportation systems…

That’s the plan. After years and years saving half what we earned, now we will be spending all that we earn and our savings will still keep climbing at probably even more than we are earning.

Still, old habit die hard.

The company provided housing budget I have been given is enough for a nice 1 bedroom apartment in the more expensive arrondissements in Paris, but not enough for a nice 2 bedroom apartment for when we have visitors. Despite money not being an issue we still can’t bring ourselves to shell out the extra. Lol.

Will you be able to easily upgrade to a 2 bedroom in a few weeks, after you've had a bit of time to "enjoy" the confinement of a 1 bedroom?  What percentage of your pay, which you are planning to spend 100%, will the second bedroom cost?  What do you think you will actually spend that money on, since you won't be saving it? 


Being tight is a hard habit to break. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on September 28, 2023, 05:13:19 PM

A second bedroom is quite expensive. It will be about 600 euro a month or 7,200 euro a year. Maybe a little more.

It is hard to estimate how many nights the room will be used in a year. Maybe 20. So that’s 144 Euro a night. Maybe our visitors would enjoy the comfort and privacy of a hotel room instead. Even 20 nights seems a lot of hosting.

Plenty of ways we could spend the money.

I fly to Paris this weekend so will get a better handle on the peculiarities of Parisian life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 28, 2023, 08:22:09 PM

My one little piece of advice, location is everything.  I had an apartment near the Arc de Triomphe and it was great for running after work (Bois de Boulogne), strolls at night (Champs Elysees, Seine), and public transport (I worked at La Defense).  Loads of fun shops, groceries, a street market, restuarants...  Hopefully you have a good advisor to help - I spent several weeks looking until I found a suitable apartment.  My temporary apartment when I first arrived was fantastic but too expensive.  Bonne chance! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: itchyfeet on September 28, 2023, 10:04:36 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on September 28, 2023, 08:22:09 PM

My one little piece of advice, location is everything.  I had an apartment near the Arc de Triomphe and it was great for running after work (Bois de Boulogne), strolls at night (Champs Elysees, Seine), and public transport (I worked at La Defense).  Loads of fun shops, groceries, a street market, restuarants...  Hopefully you have a good advisor to help - I spent several weeks looking until I found a suitable apartment.  My temporary apartment when I first arrived was fantastic but too expensive.  Bonne chance!

Thanks. I’ll be working in La Defense too. I agree, location is worth paying for.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on September 29, 2023, 02:05:41 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 28, 2023, 05:13:19 PM

A second bedroom is quite expensive. It will be about 600 euro a month or 7,200 euro a year. Maybe a little more.

It is hard to estimate how many nights the room will be used in a year. Maybe 20. So that’s 144 Euro a night. Maybe our visitors would enjoy the comfort and privacy of a hotel room instead. Even 20 nights seems a lot of hosting.

Plenty of ways we could spend the money.

I fly to Paris this weekend so will get a better handle on the peculiarities of Parisian life.

I think you are being penny-wise and pound-foolish in your thinking here.

144 euro/night is not going to get anyone very nice accomodations, especially not near you if you are in a nicer neighborhood.  And especially especially not at short notice or during peak travel seasons.

Say a good friend or close relative finds a screaming deal on airfare for a long weekend.  But hotels are booked.  Wouldn't it be nice to say to them "no problem - we have plenty of room!"?

Or what if somebody you like and would like to see wants to plan a longer trip to Europe but don't want to be locked into a strict itinerary.  Wouldn't it be nice to have the space to put them up on short notice when they swing through Paris?

Personally for these reasons alone I would splurge on the larger place.  Not to mention the fact that it also gives you a bit more room to spread out in what is a very densely populated city.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Captain FIRE on September 29, 2023, 04:19:36 PM

Yeah I was going to ask whether you wished to encourage or discourage visitors and that can guide you in your choice of apartment. A 2-bed you can invite people to visit and stay with you whereas a 1-bed less so (perhaps just close friends/family that are comfortable on a couch).

Agree on 144 Euro not getting great accommodations. Do you have many single female friends/families that might not feel safe in a 144 Euro hotel near you? (That said, it's also their hotel budget, not yours, so I go back to the above.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on September 29, 2023, 04:40:44 PM

$600 per month is $20 per night. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: baludon on September 29, 2023, 05:40:59 PM

The apartment will sit empty for, presumably, 4.5 months a year. That’s 5400 euros thrown away.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on September 30, 2023, 12:14:48 AM

I say get the second bedroom.  Of course I have a second bedroom mostly for the cat.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Malossi792 on September 30, 2023, 07:22:25 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 30, 2023, 12:14:48 AM

I say get the second bedroom.  Of course I have a second bedroom mostly for the cat.

Which is as fine a reason for having it as any other.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on September 30, 2023, 01:59:48 PM

Trying to decide how frugal to get as the likely hood of a Shitdown happens.  I continue to go to work. For a US Government IOU.  I have a full 3+ months of regular spending available so cash flow is not a huge issue and as of now I’m still going to make Octobers investments, but I don’t like using my emergency fund for this crap.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 01, 2023, 04:33:10 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 30, 2023, 01:59:48 PM

Trying to decide how frugal to get as the likely hood of a Shitdownhappens.  I continue to go to work. For a US Government IOU.  I have a full 3+ months of regular spending available so cash flow is not a huge issue and as of now I’m still going to make Octobers investments, but I don’t like using my emergency fund for this crap.

Is that a Freudian slip?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on October 01, 2023, 05:45:10 PM

Quote from: itchyfeet on September 28, 2023, 05:13:19 PM

A second bedroom is quite expensive. It will be about 600 euro a month or 7,200 euro a year. Maybe a little more.

It is hard to estimate how many nights the room will be used in a year. Maybe 20. So that’s 144 Euro a night. Maybe our visitors would enjoy the comfort and privacy of a hotel room instead. Even 20 nights seems a lot of hosting.

Plenty of ways we could spend the money.

I fly to Paris this weekend so will get a better handle on the peculiarities of Parisian life.

I'm in DC USA and the difference between a one and two bedroom apartment is much bigger - perhaps twice what you mentioned.  So in some ways you're getting a bargain for what it is if it's only an extra $600/mo.  However it's up to you to decide if it's something you want to buy at all - I'm with you on the putting people up in a hotel idea.

Quote from: lhamo on September 29, 2023, 02:05:41 PM

I think you are being penny-wise and pound-foolish in your thinking here.

144 euro/night is not going to get anyone very nice accomodations, especially not near you if you are in a nicer neighborhood.  And especially especially not at short notice or during peak travel seasons.

I know of, from my days when I worked for a French company and spent a fair bit of time there, of a very acceptable hotel (I'd say American standard with VERY small rooms) in central Paris for under 150 euros.  Moreover I don't think you really need to worry about 'very nice' - if that's what visitors want they can certainly find it for themselves.

Quote

Say a good friend or close relative finds a screaming deal on airfare for a long weekend.  But hotels are booked.  Wouldn't it be nice to say to them "no problem - we have plenty of room!"?

Or what if somebody you like and would like to see wants to plan a longer trip to Europe but don't want to be locked into a strict itinerary.  Wouldn't it be nice to have the space to put them up on short notice when they swing through Paris?

Personally for these reasons alone I would splurge on the larger place.  Not to mention the fact that it also gives you a bit more room to spread out in what is a very densely populated city.

You can always get a great sofabed for $1000 or a very good air mattress for maybe $200 and put up emergency guests in the living room. If I was living on a budget in Paris I could certainly see wanting to use those extra bucks on other things (fancy Michelin starred restaurants perhaps? 

BUT... you are not in saving mode anymore and you have a chunk of dough to spend on your stay in Paris!  If you run through a budget and find you have beaucoup bucks available, it's not the worst of splurges.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on October 01, 2023, 07:05:13 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 30, 2023, 01:59:48 PM

Trying to decide how frugal to get as the likely hood of a Shitdown happens.  I continue to go to work. For a US Government IOU.  I have a full 3+ months of regular spending available so cash flow is not a huge issue and as of now I’m still going to make Octobers investments, but I don’t like using my emergency fund for this crap.

I'm very glad for you and the country as a whole that a miracle happened and the shit didn't go down.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on October 01, 2023, 07:19:00 PM

Quote from: jeroly on October 01, 2023, 07:05:13 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 30, 2023, 01:59:48 PM

Trying to decide how frugal to get as the likely hood of a Shitdown happens.  I continue to go to work. For a US Government IOU.  I have a full 3+ months of regular spending available so cash flow is not a huge issue and as of now I’m still going to make Octobers investments, but I don’t like using my emergency fund for this crap.

I'm very glad for you and the country as a whole that a miracle happened and the shit didn't go down.

I for one am totally surprised but it's only 45 days and who knows at that time.....it's not like they will keep working at it, no they will ignore it until a week before and point fingers and do it all over again.  F'in congress, bunch of self righteous, snake oil selling criminals.   But that's our system!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 01, 2023, 09:31:57 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 01, 2023, 04:33:10 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 30, 2023, 01:59:48 PM

Trying to decide how frugal to get as the likely hood of a Shitdownhappens.  I continue to go to work. For a US Government IOU.  I have a full 3+ months of regular spending available so cash flow is not a huge issue and as of now I’m still going to make Octobers investments, but I don’t like using my emergency fund for this crap.

Is that a Freudian slip?

Nope it was an autocorrect in 2018/19 that I decided was appropriate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on October 02, 2023, 06:55:02 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on October 01, 2023, 07:19:00 PM

Quote from: jeroly on October 01, 2023, 07:05:13 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 30, 2023, 01:59:48 PM

Trying to decide how frugal to get as the likely hood of a Shitdown happens.  I continue to go to work. For a US Government IOU.  I have a full 3+ months of regular spending available so cash flow is not a huge issue and as of now I’m still going to make Octobers investments, but I don’t like using my emergency fund for this crap.

I'm very glad for you and the country as a whole that a miracle happened and the shit didn't go down.

I for one am totally surprised but it's only 45 days and who knows at that time.....it's not like they will keep working at it, no they will ignore it until a week before and point fingers and do it all over again.  F'in congress, bunch of self righteous, snake oil selling criminals.   But that's our system!

It's even worse nowadays when grandstanding and attention grabbing is rewarded with more votes.  They don't have any incentive to do any actual work and prefer the system to be broken.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on October 02, 2023, 08:24:54 AM

Quote from: Turtle on October 02, 2023, 06:55:02 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on October 01, 2023, 07:19:00 PM

Quote from: jeroly on October 01, 2023, 07:05:13 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 30, 2023, 01:59:48 PM

Trying to decide how frugal to get as the likely hood of a Shitdown happens.  I continue to go to work. For a US Government IOU.  I have a full 3+ months of regular spending available so cash flow is not a huge issue and as of now I’m still going to make Octobers investments, but I don’t like using my emergency fund for this crap.

I'm very glad for you and the country as a whole that a miracle happened and the shit didn't go down.

I for one am totally surprised but it's only 45 days and who knows at that time.....it's not like they will keep working at it, no they will ignore it until a week before and point fingers and do it all over again.  F'in congress, bunch of self righteous, snake oil selling criminals.   But that's our system!

It's even worse nowadays when grandstanding and attention grabbing is rewarded with more votes.  They don't have any incentive to do any actual work and prefer the system to be broken.

With so many headlines suggesting Gaetz is going after McCarthy for working with Democrats, my brain autocorrects to "for doing his job," and I don't even like McCarthy, but I might forgive him a bit if he grows a background and actually does his job consistently instead of kowtowing to the extremists in a desperate bid to never ever work with Democrats.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: scottish on October 02, 2023, 03:25:37 PM

Quote from: ixtap on October 02, 2023, 08:24:54 AM

Quote from: Turtle on October 02, 2023, 06:55:02 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on October 01, 2023, 07:19:00 PM

Quote from: jeroly on October 01, 2023, 07:05:13 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on September 30, 2023, 01:59:48 PM

Trying to decide how frugal to get as the likely hood of a Shitdown happens.  I continue to go to work. For a US Government IOU.  I have a full 3+ months of regular spending available so cash flow is not a huge issue and as of now I’m still going to make Octobers investments, but I don’t like using my emergency fund for this crap.

I'm very glad for you and the country as a whole that a miracle happened and the shit didn't go down.

I for one am totally surprised but it's only 45 days and who knows at that time.....it's not like they will keep working at it, no they will ignore it until a week before and point fingers and do it all over again.  F'in congress, bunch of self righteous, snake oil selling criminals.   But that's our system!

It's even worse nowadays when grandstanding and attention grabbing is rewarded with more votes.  They don't have any incentive to do any actual work and prefer the system to be broken.

With so many headlines suggesting Gaetz is going after McCarthy for working with Democrats, my brain autocorrects to "for doing his job," and I don't even like McCarthy, but I might forgive him a bit if he grows a background and actually does his job consistently instead of kowtowing to the extremists in a desperate bid to never ever work with Democrats.

Gaetz and McCarthy.    They seem to be a bit...  out of their weight class when dealing with Biden.   https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WNkfgFU_1Ik (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WNkfgFU_1Ik)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on October 02, 2023, 03:41:43 PM

Any chance of taking the politics talk to another thread?  There are probably a dozen to choose from.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on October 02, 2023, 07:40:43 PM

I feel like we have been spending like drunken sailors. For the past 12 months we have travelled more than ever, done multiple boat projects including DH's solar project that involves extra spending for prototyping, needed a car repair, paid for 3 months of COBRA to bridge to Megacorp's new part time policies... Imagine my surprise to run the numbers and realize that the only spending above and beyond our targets was what we used to help a friend avoid homelessness. And it doesn't even really matter yet: even helping that friend we will have some savings this year from DH's income. We have had a number of challenges this year, but I feel better than ever about our numbers. Given improvements to his health, DH will probably keep working until they lay him off (he survived this round, though) or until we can afford his dream boat and still live on 3.5% of the remainder. As a matter of fact, he is starting to look into Starlink so that he work and boat.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on October 02, 2023, 09:50:06 PM

Still treading water, but we have managed to increase our net worth by $50K over the past couple of months.  We have $100K in two tuition payments to cover this year, so treading water for the next two/three years is what we are going to do.  We are definitely spending like drunken sailors as we coast through this race.  I feel like the out-of-shape 52 year old that I am in a Marathon walking along while the others are out there running 5-6 minute miles.  Hanging solidly in the $3.0-$3.1 range for the foreseeable future - unless another correction comes along.  It is October.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Louise on October 03, 2023, 07:01:52 AM

Quote from: couponvan on October 02, 2023, 09:50:06 PM

Still treading water, but we have managed to increase our net worth by $50K over the past couple of months.  We have $100K in two tuition payments to cover this year, so treading water for the next two/three years is what we are going to do.  We are definitely spending like drunken sailors as we coast through this race.  I feel like the out-of-shape 52 year old that I am in a Marathon walking along while the others are out there running 5-6 minute miles.  Hanging solidly in the $3.0-$3.1 range for the foreseeable future - unless another correction comes along.  It is October.

Ours has dipped by about 100K in the past few months without any withdrawals. It kind of feels like throwing money into the void. We do have a lot of expenses this time of year so we don't put a lot away, aside from pretax savings.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 03, 2023, 07:10:19 AM

Throw us in with the drunken sailors, we keep spending on all of our glorious wants these days.  Much of this is offset by increased dividend and interest income..  The trick will be not to be deceived by the income, because it comes with an increased tax burden.  I sent off an email to the CPA to start to run the numbers.  Much of the income will be in 401k's and IRA's so that helps for now, but taxes in retirement could be just as high as my current taxes are!

I certainly preferred the good old days when inflation and interest rates were low and NW gains came from equity price 'number go up' schemes.  Given that cash definitely is no longer trash, I've gotten more scrupulous about ensuring our spare cash is yielding 5% and not 0.1% anywhere.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on October 03, 2023, 07:25:01 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 03, 2023, 07:10:19 AM

Given that cash definitely is no longer trash, I've gotten more scrupulous about ensuring our spare cash is yielding 5% and not 0.1% anywhere.

I am definitely cutting it a little closer on transfers to checking than I used to. Never used to let checking drop below scheduled bills. But most of the bills are scheduled 20-30 days in advance, so I am holding on to funds in HYSA account an extra week or two now that the interest means something.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 03, 2023, 07:38:50 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 03, 2023, 07:10:19 AM

Throw us in with the drunken sailors, we keep spending on all of our glorious wants these days.  Much of this is offset by increased dividend and interest income..  The trick will be not to be deceived by the income, because it comes with an increased tax burden.  I sent off an email to the CPA to start to run the numbers.  Much of the income will be in 401k's and IRA's so that helps for now, but taxes in retirement could be just as high as my current taxes are!

I certainly preferred the good old days when inflation and interest rates were low and NW gains came from equity price 'number go up' schemes.  Given that cash definitely is no longer trash, I've gotten more scrupulous about ensuring our spare cash is yielding 5% and not 0.1% anywhere.

I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation and it appears we may get over $80k in interest and dividends this year (all accounts including tax deferred). If this keeps up, we may wind up with a sub 1% WR when my my wife eventually retires :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 03, 2023, 08:16:33 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on October 03, 2023, 07:38:50 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 03, 2023, 07:10:19 AM

Throw us in with the drunken sailors, we keep spending on all of our glorious wants these days.  Much of this is offset by increased dividend and interest income..  The trick will be not to be deceived by the income, because it comes with an increased tax burden.  I sent off an email to the CPA to start to run the numbers.  Much of the income will be in 401k's and IRA's so that helps for now, but taxes in retirement could be just as high as my current taxes are!

I certainly preferred the good old days when inflation and interest rates were low and NW gains came from equity price 'number go up' schemes.  Given that cash definitely is no longer trash, I've gotten more scrupulous about ensuring our spare cash is yielding 5% and not 0.1% anywhere.

I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation and it appears we may get over $80k in interest and dividends this year (all accounts including tax deferred). If this keeps up, we may wind up with a sub 1% WR when my my wife eventually retires :-)

You obviously haven't been keeping up with Early-Retirement.org https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/living-off-dividends-to-0-wr-119430.html
LOL  It's a nice problem to have, and important to dicker over!  They don't mention interest payments specifically, but I'm sure that also somehow counts as withdrawals...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 03, 2023, 09:11:00 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on October 02, 2023, 03:41:43 PM

Any chance of taking the politics talk to another thread?  There are probably a dozen to choose from.

My bad for mentioning the shitdown, which directly effects my finances.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 03, 2023, 09:27:38 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on October 03, 2023, 09:11:00 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on October 02, 2023, 03:41:43 PM

Any chance of taking the politics talk to another thread?  There are probably a dozen to choose from.

My bad for mentioning the shitdown, which directly effects my finances.

Shitup about the shitdown, man...  LOL

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on October 03, 2023, 10:05:28 AM

Quote from: Louise on October 03, 2023, 07:01:52 AM

Quote from: couponvan on October 02, 2023, 09:50:06 PM

Still treading water, but we have managed to increase our net worth by $50K over the past couple of months.  We have $100K in two tuition payments to cover this year, so treading water for the next two/three years is what we are going to do.  We are definitely spending like drunken sailors as we coast through this race.  I feel like the out-of-shape 52 year old that I am in a Marathon walking along while the others are out there running 5-6 minute miles.  Hanging solidly in the $3.0-$3.1 range for the foreseeable future - unless another correction comes along.  It is October.

Ours has dipped by about 100K in the past few months without any withdrawals. It kind of feels like throwing money into the void. We do have a lot of expenses this time of year so we don't put a lot away, aside from pretax savings.

I agree.  USA markets have been brutal lately - both stocks and bonds.  Thankfully, we are diversified and are basically treading water, but man...it really does feel like throwing money into the void.  However, anytime it feels like this is when we are getting the "best deal"for our investment dollar, long term.  It sure doesn't feel that way sometimes though!

On the good news front, both kids are graduating from college this year ( one undergrad, one masters degree ).  So we are pretty much done with the college years...woo hoo!  Our son ( the undergrad ), is a Physics/Astrophysics double major and has done quite well...so there is a great chance he can land a fully paid grad school gig. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on October 03, 2023, 10:27:51 AM

I'm a bit up on the year (probably as many of my investments are global so the £'s inevitable slide towards utter obscurity helps the portfolio a bit in £ terms, assuming I'm fine with never needing to spend too much in another currency...)

Definitely down in real inflation-adjusted terms though - which will be mainly due to my inability to ever get my cash into the market in a reasonable time-frame.  Which I guess doesn't matter that much in this category - though from next year I'll be earning less than I spend, so will feel less well able to afford this kind of "loss through being lazy/slack" rather than "loss through 'life happens'".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on October 03, 2023, 11:43:52 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on October 03, 2023, 10:05:28 AM

...

On the good news front, both kids are graduating from college this year ( one undergrad, one masters degree ).  So we are pretty much done with the college years...woo hoo!  Our son ( the undergrad ), is a Physics/Astrophysics double major and has done quite well...so there is a great chance he can land a fully paid grad school gig.

Congrats, that's a huge step.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on October 03, 2023, 12:17:13 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on October 03, 2023, 11:43:52 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on October 03, 2023, 10:05:28 AM

...

On the good news front, both kids are graduating from college this year ( one undergrad, one masters degree ).  So we are pretty much done with the college years...woo hoo!  Our son ( the undergrad ), is a Physics/Astrophysics double major and has done quite well...so there is a great chance he can land a fully paid grad school gig.

Congrats, that's a huge step.

Thanks...yes, it really is a huge step! 

We were somewhat "prepared", and have/had money in 529 plans.  However, the money we have in there never seems to be enough, even with our planning.  It still boggles my mind how expensive college is...even at our in-state university.  Not only tuition, but the ridiculous rise in rents in just a few short years.  Since I have had kids in college for quite a while now, I have seen the rent increases with my own eyes...and it is just freaking outrageous.

But on a good note, we should be able to get them out of there with no debt.   I'll give them credit too...they both made enough to pretty much pay their rent all the way through college, and they both landed decent scholarships ( but still a drop in the bucket ).  Our son does needs some assistance with rent this year, but that is because he did a "research internship" this summer.  Cool stuff - he was working with data from NASA's Parker Solar Probe.  Unfortunately, "research internships" don't pay diddly squat, but it should help him land that grad school gig.

https://science.nasa.gov/mission/parker-solar-probe/

Our daughter?  She is in grad school to become a therapist.  She also works at a brewery...and makes way, way more than I thought would be possible.   It is a hard job though, but bartending ( at least at this one ) pays extremely well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on October 03, 2023, 10:38:10 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on October 03, 2023, 11:43:52 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on October 03, 2023, 10:05:28 AM

...

On the good news front, both kids are graduating from college this year ( one undergrad, one masters degree ).  So we are pretty much done with the college years...woo hoo!  Our son ( the undergrad ), is a Physics/Astrophysics double major and has done quite well...so there is a great chance he can land a fully paid grad school gig.

Congrats, that's a huge step.

That is good news. One down, and 2 at 1/3. Once they are done it will be much easier to manage it all.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on October 04, 2023, 07:31:56 AM

Quote from: couponvan on October 03, 2023, 10:38:10 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on October 03, 2023, 11:43:52 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on October 03, 2023, 10:05:28 AM

...

On the good news front, both kids are graduating from college this year ( one undergrad, one masters degree ).  So we are pretty much done with the college years...woo hoo!  Our son ( the undergrad ), is a Physics/Astrophysics double major and has done quite well...so there is a great chance he can land a fully paid grad school gig.

Congrats, that's a huge step.

That is good news. One down, and 2 at 1/3. Once they are done it will be much easier to manage it all.

Our oldest will start college next year, the middle the year after that, and the little 2 years after that.   My goodness is it crap ton, I fantasize about being the many people we know who spend all their money incessantly on YOLO and then get to college years and whine about how much debt their children will undertake.   

DW and I joke about "who would want an expensive vacation home anyway?" 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on October 04, 2023, 09:50:48 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on October 04, 2023, 07:31:56 AM

Quote from: couponvan on October 03, 2023, 10:38:10 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on October 03, 2023, 11:43:52 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on October 03, 2023, 10:05:28 AM

...

On the good news front, both kids are graduating from college this year ( one undergrad, one masters degree ).  So we are pretty much done with the college years...woo hoo!  Our son ( the undergrad ), is a Physics/Astrophysics double major and has done quite well...so there is a great chance he can land a fully paid grad school gig.

Congrats, that's a huge step.

That is good news. One down, and 2 at 1/3. Once they are done it will be much easier to manage it all.

Our oldest will start college next year, the middle the year after that, and the little 2 years after that.   My goodness is it crap ton, I fantasize about being the many people we know who spend all their money incessantly on YOLO and then get to college years and whine about how much debt their children will undertake.   

DW and I joke about "who would want an expensive vacation home anyway?"

Haha...we have had similar conversations.   But you know what?  Cabins/Beach Houses/Vacation Homes are a lot of work!  At least that is how we rationalize it. 

4 kids to put thorough college...ouch!  We had a tough enough time with two!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Allie on October 04, 2023, 12:12:36 PM

Oh dear lord.  Mine are 10/12 and reading the college stories is just ratcheting up my anxiety.  It was bad when we started planning 10 years ago, is worse right now, I don’t even want to think about what college will be costing in another 10 years.  I keep thinking that it can’t get any worse…then it does!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on October 04, 2023, 02:03:48 PM

Quote from: Allie on October 04, 2023, 12:12:36 PM

Oh dear lord.  Mine are 10/12 and reading the college stories is just ratcheting up my anxiety.  It was bad when we started planning 10 years ago, is worse right now, I don’t even want to think about what college will be costing in another 10 years.  I keep thinking that it can’t get any worse…then it does!

In state tuition at a number of NC universities is reasonable.  If you are FI or close to it, move near one of them in time for them to qualify for in-state tuition. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on October 04, 2023, 02:52:56 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 04, 2023, 02:03:48 PM

Quote from: Allie on October 04, 2023, 12:12:36 PM

Oh dear lord.  Mine are 10/12 and reading the college stories is just ratcheting up my anxiety.  It was bad when we started planning 10 years ago, is worse right now, I don’t even want to think about what college will be costing in another 10 years.  I keep thinking that it can’t get any worse…then it does!

In state tuition at a number of NC universities is reasonable.  If you are FI or close to it, move near one of them in time for them to qualify for in-state tuition.

Interesting you mention NC universities.   Yes...they are reasonable for in state residents, as you mentioned. 

My daughter attends grad school at Chapel Hill and wasn't a resident her first year....that was an ouch moment.  It took some work, but thankfully, she is a resident this year...and just that saved us around 20K in tuition!  She also landed some great grants this year as well.

Another thing that hit us hard is the massive increase in rents.  We did NOT expect that while planning a few years back.  So it isn't just tuition to worry about these days.  The days of "cheap rent", even for college students, are long gone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on October 04, 2023, 02:57:39 PM

Quote from: Allie on October 04, 2023, 12:12:36 PM

Oh dear lord.  Mine are 10/12 and reading the college stories is just ratcheting up my anxiety.  It was bad when we started planning 10 years ago, is worse right now, I don’t even want to think about what college will be costing in another 10 years.  I keep thinking that it can’t get any worse…then it does!

At least people like us DO long term planning to help put our kids through college and are somewhat prepared.  There are many, many parents that can't or won't do that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on October 04, 2023, 05:37:23 PM

Hopefully, they all avoid falling for mates with a mountain of student debt too.  That's the hurdle you can't plan for.  ;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on October 04, 2023, 06:23:28 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on October 04, 2023, 09:50:48 AM

Haha...we have had similar conversations.   But you know what?  Cabins/Beach Houses/Vacation Homes are a lot of work!  At least that is how we rationalize it. 

4 kids to put thorough college...ouch!  We had a tough enough time with two!

Three kids but when I read my comment I see the little 2...should have been the little in 2 years...haha.

Quote from: Allie on October 04, 2023, 12:12:36 PM

Oh dear lord.  Mine are 10/12 and reading the college stories is just ratcheting up my anxiety.  It was bad when we started planning 10 years ago, is worse right now, I don’t even want to think about what college will be costing in another 10 years.  I keep thinking that it can’t get any worse…then it does!

The struggle is real and never gets better....I was hoping the demographic/enrollment cliff (it's a thing due to lower population) would cause prices to decline (a la less demand)   but nope it's seems that (1) schools feel that they can jack prices to make up for lost revenue from lower enrollment and (2) smaller schools are simply closing / going under.  It's bizarre


And yes, in the total cost of attendance the housing is usually greatly understated and rents have been rising fast.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on October 04, 2023, 06:25:16 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on October 04, 2023, 02:52:56 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 04, 2023, 02:03:48 PM

Quote from: Allie on October 04, 2023, 12:12:36 PM

Oh dear lord.  Mine are 10/12 and reading the college stories is just ratcheting up my anxiety.  It was bad when we started planning 10 years ago, is worse right now, I don’t even want to think about what college will be costing in another 10 years.  I keep thinking that it can’t get any worse…then it does!

In state tuition at a number of NC universities is reasonable.  If you are FI or close to it, move near one of them in time for them to qualify for in-state tuition.

Interesting you mention NC universities.   Yes...they are reasonable for in state residents, as you mentioned. 

My daughter attends grad school at Chapel Hill and wasn't a resident her first year....that was an ouch moment.  It took some work, but thankfully, she is a resident this year...and just that saved us around 20K in tuition!  She also landed some great grants this year as well.

Another thing that hit us hard is the massive increase in rents.  We did NOT expect that while planning a few years back.  So it isn't just tuition to worry about these days.  The days of "cheap rent", even for college students, are long gone.

Carolinas are being discussed but out of state is really high.

How did you get in state qualified?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on October 05, 2023, 07:44:45 AM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on October 04, 2023, 05:37:23 PM

Hopefully, they all avoid falling for mates with a mountain of student debt too.  That's the hurdle you can't plan for.  ;)

My brother graduated with no student debt, but they're still paying on his wife's even though all 3 of their kids are now college age also.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on October 05, 2023, 08:28:16 AM

Quote from: Turtle on October 05, 2023, 07:44:45 AM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on October 04, 2023, 05:37:23 PM

Hopefully, they all avoid falling for mates with a mountain of student debt too.  That's the hurdle you can't plan for.  ;)

My brother graduated with no student debt, but they're still paying on his wife's even though all 3 of their kids are now college age also.

My SIL is still paying and her kid is 30.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on October 05, 2023, 11:51:29 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on October 04, 2023, 06:25:16 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on October 04, 2023, 02:52:56 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 04, 2023, 02:03:48 PM

Quote from: Allie on October 04, 2023, 12:12:36 PM

Oh dear lord.  Mine are 10/12 and reading the college stories is just ratcheting up my anxiety.  It was bad when we started planning 10 years ago, is worse right now, I don’t even want to think about what college will be costing in another 10 years.  I keep thinking that it can’t get any worse…then it does!

In state tuition at a number of NC universities is reasonable.  If you are FI or close to it, move near one of them in time for them to qualify for in-state tuition.

Interesting you mention NC universities.   Yes...they are reasonable for in state residents, as you mentioned. 

My daughter attends grad school at Chapel Hill and wasn't a resident her first year....that was an ouch moment.  It took some work, but thankfully, she is a resident this year...and just that saved us around 20K in tuition!  She also landed some great grants this year as well.

Another thing that hit us hard is the massive increase in rents.  We did NOT expect that while planning a few years back.  So it isn't just tuition to worry about these days.  The days of "cheap rent", even for college students, are long gone.

Carolinas are being discussed but out of state is really high.

How did you get in state qualified?

Well...our daughter moved to NC to attend grad school in early August, 2022.  In the meantime, we moved her car title to NC, got her a NC license, she got a job in NC, etc...  She is also files taxes as a "single filer, non-dependent".

Now that she has been in NC for a year+, and has the major prerequisites taken care of, she applied for residency status via https://www.ncresidency.org/.

Here is the kicker though...being a college student ( even a grad student ) isn't enough.  You also have to "prove that you won't leave NC" after graduation.  All of the above helped her "prove" that.

To be honest, I was more than a bit skeptical that her NC residency status would be accepted...but it was.  And it will save her 20K in tuition costs for this year.  I don't think it would have worked if she was an undergrad student.

BTW - Because of all these hoops to jump through, this is why some recommend relocating to NC at least a year before your kid attends college.  That way, the entire family become NC residents.  Obviously not practical to do that for the vast majority of people.

 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on October 05, 2023, 12:05:07 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on October 05, 2023, 11:51:29 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on October 04, 2023, 06:25:16 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on October 04, 2023, 02:52:56 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 04, 2023, 02:03:48 PM

Quote from: Allie on October 04, 2023, 12:12:36 PM

Oh dear lord.  Mine are 10/12 and reading the college stories is just ratcheting up my anxiety.  It was bad when we started planning 10 years ago, is worse right now, I don’t even want to think about what college will be costing in another 10 years.  I keep thinking that it can’t get any worse…then it does!

In state tuition at a number of NC universities is reasonable.  If you are FI or close to it, move near one of them in time for them to qualify for in-state tuition.

Interesting you mention NC universities.   Yes...they are reasonable for in state residents, as you mentioned. 

My daughter attends grad school at Chapel Hill and wasn't a resident her first year....that was an ouch moment.  It took some work, but thankfully, she is a resident this year...and just that saved us around 20K in tuition!  She also landed some great grants this year as well.

Another thing that hit us hard is the massive increase in rents.  We did NOT expect that while planning a few years back.  So it isn't just tuition to worry about these days.  The days of "cheap rent", even for college students, are long gone.

Carolinas are being discussed but out of state is really high.

How did you get in state qualified?

Well...our daughter moved to NC to attend grad school in early August, 2022.  In the meantime, we moved her car title to NC, got her a NC license, she got a job in NC, etc...  She is also files taxes as a "single filer, non-dependent".

Now that she has been in NC for a year+, and has the major prerequisites taken care of, she applied for residency status via https://www.ncresidency.org/.

Here is the kicker though...being a college student ( even a grad student ) isn't enough.  You also have to "prove that you won't leave NC" after graduation.  All of the above helped her "prove" that.

To be honest, I was more than a bit skeptical that her NC residency status would be accepted...but it was.  And it will save her 20K in tuition costs for this year.  I don't think it would have worked if she was an undergrad student.

BTW - Because of all these hoops to jump through, this is why some recommend relocating to NC at least a year before your kid attends college.  That way, the entire family become NC residents.  Obviously not practical to do that for the vast majority of people.

 

Grad student element is a key factor, can't really do all those things as an undergrad.   Thanks for replying.

You're right that the only way to do it otherwise is to move to the state a year earlier, but that's not really practical.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on October 06, 2023, 10:01:14 AM

DH had a meeting with his new upper management yesterday. One of the first questions was why he is part time and is he dissatisfied with Megacorp (health and no, not in the least). When DH said that he would like to be part time and remote for the foreseeable future, new guy assured him he shouldn't expect any changes. It really sounds like the outgoing folks and DH's mentor have fully impressed on incoming management how much they value DH, even now that he has been part time and remote for a little over a year.

DH is also sharing with anyone who will listen how much better he is feeling these days. Once I get over my current health issue and can get back to my exercise routine, I am expecting a pretty awesome Fall and Winter. Hopefully, over the next 13 months we can do the things we came to this lovely corner of the world to do and actually be the sober sailors we aspire to be, rather than holed up and spending like drunken sailors. To be clear: the only folks more sober than us are actual teetotalers, it is the sailing we have been missing the mark on.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on October 06, 2023, 01:32:53 PM

Quote from: ixtap on October 05, 2023, 08:28:16 AM

Quote from: Turtle on October 05, 2023, 07:44:45 AM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on October 04, 2023, 05:37:23 PM

Hopefully, they all avoid falling for mates with a mountain of student debt too.  That's the hurdle you can't plan for.  ;)

My brother graduated with no student debt, but they're still paying on his wife's even though all 3 of their kids are now college age also.

My SIL is still paying and her kid is 30.

We might need a "Don't Payoff Your Student Loans" thread. Assuming low interest rates, this is similar to a mortgage and the clear path to FI.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on October 07, 2023, 10:41:59 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on October 06, 2023, 01:32:53 PM

Quote from: ixtap on October 05, 2023, 08:28:16 AM

Quote from: Turtle on October 05, 2023, 07:44:45 AM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on October 04, 2023, 05:37:23 PM

Hopefully, they all avoid falling for mates with a mountain of student debt too.  That's the hurdle you can't plan for.  ;)

My brother graduated with no student debt, but they're still paying on his wife's even though all 3 of their kids are now college age also.

My SIL is still paying and her kid is 30.

We might need a "Don't Payoff Your Student Loans" thread. Assuming low interest rates, this is similar to a mortgage and the clear path to FI.

True.  Now that interest accrual dropped, we have already paid off our kids higher interest loans.  The only ones left are at 2.75%.  The interest really adds up fast on the higher rate loans!  A couple of the larger ones were over 7%...
 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on October 12, 2023, 02:27:37 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on October 06, 2023, 01:32:53 PM

Quote from: ixtap on October 05, 2023, 08:28:16 AM

Quote from: Turtle on October 05, 2023, 07:44:45 AM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on October 04, 2023, 05:37:23 PM

Hopefully, they all avoid falling for mates with a mountain of student debt too.  That's the hurdle you can't plan for.  ;)

My brother graduated with no student debt, but they're still paying on his wife's even though all 3 of their kids are now college age also.

My SIL is still paying and her kid is 30.

We might need a "Don't Payoff Your Student Loans" thread. Assuming low interest rates, this is similar to a mortgage and the clear path to FI.

Heh, Well, the don't pay off your mortgage versus pay off your mortgage always seemed like quite an insignificant wash to me so I never really took a side.  But that would change if there was some hope of me being forgiven of my entire mortgage balance at some point....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on October 12, 2023, 02:31:45 PM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on October 05, 2023, 12:05:07 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on October 05, 2023, 11:51:29 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on October 04, 2023, 06:25:16 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on October 04, 2023, 02:52:56 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 04, 2023, 02:03:48 PM

Quote from: Allie on October 04, 2023, 12:12:36 PM

Oh dear lord.  Mine are 10/12 and reading the college stories is just ratcheting up my anxiety.  It was bad when we started planning 10 years ago, is worse right now, I don’t even want to think about what college will be costing in another 10 years.  I keep thinking that it can’t get any worse…then it does!

In state tuition at a number of NC universities is reasonable.  If you are FI or close to it, move near one of them in time for them to qualify for in-state tuition.

Interesting you mention NC universities.   Yes...they are reasonable for in state residents, as you mentioned. 

My daughter attends grad school at Chapel Hill and wasn't a resident her first year....that was an ouch moment.  It took some work, but thankfully, she is a resident this year...and just that saved us around 20K in tuition!  She also landed some great grants this year as well.

Another thing that hit us hard is the massive increase in rents.  We did NOT expect that while planning a few years back.  So it isn't just tuition to worry about these days.  The days of "cheap rent", even for college students, are long gone.

Carolinas are being discussed but out of state is really high.

How did you get in state qualified?

Well...our daughter moved to NC to attend grad school in early August, 2022.  In the meantime, we moved her car title to NC, got her a NC license, she got a job in NC, etc...  She is also files taxes as a "single filer, non-dependent".

Now that she has been in NC for a year+, and has the major prerequisites taken care of, she applied for residency status via https://www.ncresidency.org/.

Here is the kicker though...being a college student ( even a grad student ) isn't enough.  You also have to "prove that you won't leave NC" after graduation.  All of the above helped her "prove" that.

To be honest, I was more than a bit skeptical that her NC residency status would be accepted...but it was.  And it will save her 20K in tuition costs for this year.  I don't think it would have worked if she was an undergrad student.

BTW - Because of all these hoops to jump through, this is why some recommend relocating to NC at least a year before your kid attends college.  That way, the entire family become NC residents.  Obviously not practical to do that for the vast majority of people.

 

Grad student element is a key factor, can't really do all those things as an undergrad.   Thanks for replying.

You're right that the only way to do it otherwise is to move to the state a year earlier, but that's not really practical.

Hmmm.  So many kids are taking that "gap" year now maybe we've found a good use for that year...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on October 12, 2023, 06:55:35 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on October 12, 2023, 02:27:37 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on October 06, 2023, 01:32:53 PM

Quote from: ixtap on October 05, 2023, 08:28:16 AM

Quote from: Turtle on October 05, 2023, 07:44:45 AM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on October 04, 2023, 05:37:23 PM

Hopefully, they all avoid falling for mates with a mountain of student debt too.  That's the hurdle you can't plan for.  ;)

My brother graduated with no student debt, but they're still paying on his wife's even though all 3 of their kids are now college age also.

My SIL is still paying and her kid is 30.

We might need a "Don't Payoff Your Student Loans" thread. Assuming low interest rates, this is similar to a mortgage and the clear path to FI.

Heh, Well, the don't pay off your mortgage versus pay off your mortgage always seemed like quite an insignificant wash to me so I never really took a side.  But that would change if there was some hope of me being forgiven of my entire mortgage balance at some point....

LOL, yeah that’s a good point. The (possible) forgiving of student loans is such an unbelievable sack of shit that it didn’t even enter my mind.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 24, 2023, 07:35:21 PM

It's interesting how articles about wealth typically make some blanket statement about how older people have more wealth.  So here's an article that at least breaks things out by age, but it is only looking at broad averages.  Mustachians or even aspiring mustachians must surely beat this in all categories.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/high-americans-net-worth-every-144235574.html (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/high-americans-net-worth-every-144235574.html)

Here's the average by age range.  note that the source of most of this wealth is real estate (primary residence).

• Under 35: $30,500
• Age 35 – 44: $126,900
• Age 45 – 54: $186,000
• Age 55 – 64: $276,000
• Age 65 – 69: $341,400
• Ages 70+: $373,900

Sure, the numbers get bigger with age, but sadly it's kind of depressing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on October 24, 2023, 08:16:03 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on October 24, 2023, 07:35:21 PM

It's interesting how articles about wealth typically make some blanket statement about how older people have more wealth.  So here's an article that at least breaks things out by age, but it is only looking at broad averages.  Mustachians or even aspiring mustachians must surely beat this in all categories.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/high-americans-net-worth-every-144235574.html (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/high-americans-net-worth-every-144235574.html)

I've found this site to be quite useful for net worth and income stats, plus others.

https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/
 (https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on October 24, 2023, 08:26:01 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 24, 2023, 08:16:03 PM

I've found this site to be quite useful for net worth and income stats, plus others.

https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/
 (https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/)

Nice.  Thanks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 24, 2023, 09:40:35 PM

In the paying it forward category.  I showed a coworker where he can change his TSP contribution to max it out.  I also mentioned how HQ will send out an E-mail before January with the amount to max out next year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on October 24, 2023, 10:24:44 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 24, 2023, 08:16:03 PM

I've found this site to be quite useful for net worth and income stats, plus others.

https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/
 (https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/)

A $2M net worth puts a household (based on 2019 data) in the 93.7th percentile.   Top 7% of wealth in the US.
A $3M net worth ranks 95.6th percentile, or top 5%.
A $4M net worth ranks 96.5th percentile, or top 4%.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on October 24, 2023, 11:10:51 PM

Fun calculator. The problem with living in a HCOLA is that everybody has crap tons of money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on October 25, 2023, 05:11:13 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on October 24, 2023, 09:40:35 PM

In the paying it forward category.  I showed a coworker where he can change his TSP contribution to max it out.  I also mentioned how HQ will send out an E-mail before January with the amount to max out next year.

Excellent. I had two employees who during general conversations mentioned that they did not know there was even a limit for 401k. I think their there is confusion sometimes with comments about "contribute enough to get the max match" or maybe "save 10%", and the rest of the system is ignored. I knew back in the 90s when I did not have a 401k that the max IRA was $2000, but I don't think I knew what the max 401k was when I started at megacorp in 2000. Just glossed over in the literature, probably assumed it was for the "rich peple".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 25, 2023, 07:19:26 AM

When I was just starting out, contributing the max to a 401k was a tremendous burden (needed an emergency fund, rent, and food!) and the tax deferral did not impact my income taxes significantly.  Now that I’m well off and the income tax deferral is significant, maxing out is super easy, barely an inconvenience…. Very ironic.  The choices I made back then had a lot more impact than what I do now, in terms of FI.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on October 25, 2023, 07:45:19 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 24, 2023, 10:24:44 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 24, 2023, 08:16:03 PM

I've found this site to be quite useful for net worth and income stats, plus others.

https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/
 (https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/)

A $2M net worth puts a household (based on 2019 data) in the 93.7th percentile.   Top 7% of wealth in the US.
A $3M net worth ranks 95.6th percentile, or top 5%.
A $4M net worth ranks 96.5th percentile, or top 4%.

I didn't really understand the age range function at first glance.  After wondering about it for a bit, I put my daughter's age (25) in and realized that  $1M places her in the 100% ranking.  $1M for me (59) would only be ranked at 82.68%.


After fiddling with the settings I realized she only needs $270,000 to be at 100%.  I was shocked to realize $270,000 still ranks a 59 y/o at 58.7%. 


It was interesting to adjust the age range to 30, 40, etc. to see how the $270K ranks for various ages. 


I'll have to share the link with my daughter.  She's always had a competitive spirit.  This should help her determine how well she's doing compared to her peers. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2KidFIRE on October 25, 2023, 09:25:02 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 25, 2023, 07:19:26 AM

When I was just starting out, contributing the max to a 401k was a tremendous burden (needed an emergency fund, rent, and food!) and the tax deferral did not impact my income taxes significantly.  Now that I’m well off and the income tax deferral is significant, maxing out is super easy, barely an inconvenience…. Very ironic.  The choices I made back then had a lot more impact than what I do now, in terms of FI.

Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow...... wow!  It's always interesting to look back and see how choice you made 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago (while challenging at the time) really paid off for current-you :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on October 25, 2023, 12:28:15 PM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on October 25, 2023, 09:25:02 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 25, 2023, 07:19:26 AM

When I was just starting out, contributing the max to a 401k was a tremendous burden (needed an emergency fund, rent, and food!) and the tax deferral did not impact my income taxes significantly.  Now that I’m well off and the income tax deferral is significant, maxing out is super easy, barely an inconvenience…. Very ironic.  The choices I made back then had a lot more impact than what I do now, in terms of FI.

Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow...... wow!  It's always interesting to look back and see how choice you made 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago (while challenging at the time) really paid off for current-you :)

Yep it sure is!

We tried very, very hard to always max out our 401k's even though it made us very cash poor starting out.  However, we were mostly successful and have been maxing them out for decades now.  We just couldn't pass up the "immediate gain" of the tax deferral. 

Fast forward to today and we are sitting pretty!  Things have been a little discouraging lately though in terms of growth, but we survived the 2008-2009 crash, and all the other crashes and dips since then, so we can certainly survive this.

I guess the point is that it really can take decades of planning for "average working joes" like ourselves to make the double commas club ( and eventually make it to this thread ).  And we have good, professional, jobs.  It is orders of magnitude harder for those with lower income, and we are well aware of that...with many examples of family and friends that definitely won't make it.  However, that is a topic for another discussion.  Far too many of the "won't make its" were buying "all the toys" while younger while we were cash poor and "suffering"...but were stashing away a boatload.

But that was back in the day, when many had the opportunity to save, but blew it.  Unfortunately, the "start saving early" mantra, much less maxing out a 401k, just isn't doable for many younger folks these days, for many reasons.  I'm seeing the struggle with my own kids and their peers.  That is why we are helping out our kids as much as possible.  We will likely get them both out of college this year with no student debt ( see discussion above ), which we hope will be a great "kick start" into the real world, but time will tell.   We have also taught them to be frugal, so that should help as well.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Monocle Money Mouth on October 25, 2023, 02:15:53 PM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on October 25, 2023, 09:25:02 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 25, 2023, 07:19:26 AM

When I was just starting out, contributing the max to a 401k was a tremendous burden (needed an emergency fund, rent, and food!) and the tax deferral did not impact my income taxes significantly.  Now that I’m well off and the income tax deferral is significant, maxing out is super easy, barely an inconvenience…. Very ironic.  The choices I made back then had a lot more impact than what I do now, in terms of FI.

Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow...... wow!  It's always interesting to look back and see how choice you made 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago (while challenging at the time) really paid off for current-you :)

Maxing out your 401(k) is tight!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: achvfi on October 25, 2023, 02:38:36 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 24, 2023, 10:24:44 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on October 24, 2023, 08:16:03 PM

I've found this site to be quite useful for net worth and income stats, plus others.

https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/
 (https://personalfinancedata.com/networth-percentile-calculator/)

A $2M net worth puts a household (based on 2019 data) in the 93.7th percentile.   Top 7% of wealth in the US.
A $3M net worth ranks 95.6th percentile, or top 5%.
A $4M net worth ranks 96.5th percentile, or top 4%.

If these are 2019 numbers, my guess is networth numbers should have gone up by 40-50% in last 3-4 years for a typical person.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on October 25, 2023, 05:03:58 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 25, 2023, 07:19:26 AM

When I was just starting out, contributing the max to a 401k was a tremendous burden (needed an emergency fund, rent, and food!) and the tax deferral did not impact my income taxes significantly.  Now that I’m well off and the income tax deferral is significant, maxing out is super easy, barely an inconvenience…. Very ironic.  The choices I made back then had a lot more impact than what I do now, in terms of FI.

The $2500 that it cost us to buy our first shares of the S&P in our taxable brokerage account back in 1993 is now worth about $15000 now (I'm not including all the reinvested dividends over the years).

We aren't really good at thinking about exponential curves - It takes a long time to see the effects of compounding but when you finally do, it's pretty mind boggling. I keep showing my wife my weekly spreadsheet update but she says that she just cannot believehow big the numbers have gotten!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on October 25, 2023, 10:07:05 PM

Quote from: Monocle Money Mouth on October 25, 2023, 02:15:53 PM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on October 25, 2023, 09:25:02 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 25, 2023, 07:19:26 AM

When I was just starting out, contributing the max to a 401k was a tremendous burden (needed an emergency fund, rent, and food!) and the tax deferral did not impact my income taxes significantly.  Now that I’m well off and the income tax deferral is significant, maxing out is super easy, barely an inconvenience…. Very ironic.  The choices I made back then had a lot more impact than what I do now, in terms of FI.

Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow...... wow!  It's always interesting to look back and see how choice you made 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago (while challenging at the time) really paid off for current-you :)

Maxing out your 401(k) is tight!

I learned to get off my high horse about maxing out immediately, and focus on adding 1% each pay raise until you get to 10% then switch to a dollar amount (we can do either but only get the match for each pay period we contribute).  Our early employees often get 2 raises a year, an overall increase in January and a step or grade increase on their hiring anniversary.  Increase is generally at least 3%.  (Government employment so set rules).  This leads to maxing out w/in 5-6 years if they don’t come up with an excuse.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 26, 2023, 05:49:45 AM

Quote from: Monocle Money Mouth on October 25, 2023, 02:15:53 PM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on October 25, 2023, 09:25:02 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on October 25, 2023, 07:19:26 AM

When I was just starting out, contributing the max to a 401k was a tremendous burden (needed an emergency fund, rent, and food!) and the tax deferral did not impact my income taxes significantly.  Now that I’m well off and the income tax deferral is significant, maxing out is super easy, barely an inconvenience…. Very ironic.  The choices I made back then had a lot more impact than what I do now, in terms of FI.

Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow...... wow!  It's always interesting to look back and see how choice you made 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago (while challenging at the time) really paid off for current-you :)

Maxing out your 401(k) is tight!

Ryan George fans here I see, nice 👍🏻

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on November 06, 2023, 02:11:20 PM

Question…

We’re looking at a real estate opportunity, but in order to do it, it needs to be all cash, and it’s more cash than we have. We’re looking at pulling contributions (not gains) from our Roth IRAs. That works find for the contributions from years ago, but the last several years have been backdoor post-tax contributions into a conventional IRA that were then rolled over into the Roth. Does anyone know if those can be extracted tax free like the direct Roth contributions?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 06, 2023, 02:22:19 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on November 06, 2023, 02:11:20 PM

Question…

We’re looking at a real estate opportunity, but in order to do it, it needs to be all cash, and it’s more cash than we have. We’re looking at pulling contributions (not gains) from our Roth IRAs. That works find for the contributions from years ago, but the last several years have been backdoor post-tax contributions into a conventional IRA that were then rolled over into the Roth. Does anyone know if those can be extracted tax free like the direct Roth contributions?

Those are conversions.  They are tax free and penalty free as long as it has been five tax years since the conversions.  So currently any conversions you did in 2018 or earlier can be extracted tax free.  If you're under 59.5, you'll need to complete Part III of Form 8606.  Pay particular attention to line 24 of that form.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on November 06, 2023, 02:30:29 PM

Okay, that makes sense given the other rules around withdrawals of earnings. Thank you!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 17, 2023, 02:53:56 AM

There have been some big swings in the market this year - I was just looking at a spreadsheet where I track our NW. From mid July to the end of October, we had a decrease of almost 7% but much of that has already been reversed in just the past week! I did a big rebalance in March and haven't changed our asset allocation since then. Anyone else seeing big swings?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 17, 2023, 08:58:52 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 17, 2023, 02:53:56 AM

There have been some big swings in the market this year - I was just looking at a spreadsheet where I track our NW. From mid July to the end of October, we had a decrease of almost 7% but much of that has already been reversed in just the past week! I did a big rebalance in March and haven't changed our asset allocation since then. Anyone else seeing big swings?

This "Anyone" freely admits she's not really paying attention. It's so unlikely that we'll ever run out of funds that I just don't worry about it any more.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 17, 2023, 10:33:44 AM

Quote from: Dicey on November 17, 2023, 08:58:52 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 17, 2023, 02:53:56 AM

There have been some big swings in the market this year - I was just looking at a spreadsheet where I track our NW. From mid July to the end of October, we had a decrease of almost 7% but much of that has already been reversed in just the past week! I did a big rebalance in March and haven't changed our asset allocation since then. Anyone else seeing big swings?

This "Anyone" freely admits she's not really paying attention. It's so unlikely that we'll ever run out of funds that I just don't worry about it any more.

I watch and notice, but I only keep track of current NW and historical points where NW or assets hit a milestone number.  Over the longer haul - for me since summer 2006 - I keep hitting milestone numbers.  I've been retired about half of that time frame, and the numbers still have gone up.

I do think that with the advent of the 24-hour news cycle and the proliferation of data, we've become less inclined to take the long view.  News stories with statistics like "the lowest mortgage rates in 3 weeks" or "the worst day for the S&P since June" or "the best week for stocks since 2021" encourage this view.  When I was growing up and learning about investing, a typical investment timeframe was five years at a minimum.  Hardly anyone talks like that any more; I think more of us should.

I watch CNBC for fun, but pretty much zero percent of it is actionable, and I don't think I've ever actually made a financial decision based at all on anything they've said.  I also haven't made any decisions since retiring based on what the economy is doing or what the Fed is saying.  Some here do; I think to their detriment but that is almost a philosophical question about active vs. passive which will continue forever here and elsewhere.

Like Dicey, I'm at a low enough WR% now that it simply doesn't matter.  Which is a practical reason for me to not really care too much.  I used to care in order to maximize the legacy for my three kids, but even that now is unnecessary because they are all earning their own way in the world and what I leave them will be just some large measure of gravy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on November 17, 2023, 11:21:06 AM

We only add it up and rebalance twice a year when RSUs generally mean a large contribution to our taxable accounts (at least, they did before going part time). I have noticed bond funds are still generally slipping and stocks have had a wild ride.

It has been a weird year for us anyway. At the beginning of the year we were convinced we were ready to spend big and put a deposit on a new boat for delivery in 2025 or 2026 and cashed out that anount. I am sure we would have been perfectly happy with that boat, but after having a chance to view one, we realized there are still a lot of compromises and we might as well keep the one we have for now. Rather than just putting the lump sum back into taxable, we upped the 401k/MBR contributions and have been trickling it back in at all those different prices, many of them higher than what we sold at. Still better for the portfolio than actually spending the money, though. Now we have to decide whether to sell from taxable to make use of the MBR next year or not. Talk about first world problems!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 17, 2023, 02:03:55 PM

According to Mint we're at an all time personal highpoint.  If you toss in real estate, we've reached beyond territory.
I bought a new bicycle a month ago. Probably taking it out for it's first voyage tomorrow. Paid about $3000 for it and accessories. I actually sweated buying it. WTF was I thinking.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on November 17, 2023, 02:29:58 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 17, 2023, 02:03:55 PM

According to Mint we're at an all time personal highpoint.  If you toss in real estate, we've reached beyond territory.
I bought a new bicycle a month ago. Probably taking it out for it's first voyage tomorrow. Paid about $3000 for it and accessories. I actually sweated buying it. WTF was I thinking.

I noticed that the market is close to when we did our last pre crash snapshot and we have probably saved an amount about equal to bond fund losses since then, so between dividends and interest we are probably up as well.

But our habits haven't really changed and my fears and anxiety around money have significantly dulled, but not disappeared. I get it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on November 17, 2023, 03:17:40 PM

Yeah, we’ve seen the wild swing down and back up. Our regular contributions bought some “on sale” shares.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: thedigitalone on November 17, 2023, 04:55:19 PM

Officially made it into the $2M liquid club this week, goal is $2.5 so getting closer!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on November 17, 2023, 05:14:12 PM

Quote from: thedigitalone on November 17, 2023, 04:55:19 PM

Officially made it into the $2M liquid club this week, goal is $2.5 so getting closer!

Congratulations!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 17, 2023, 05:20:12 PM

I haven’t paid super close attention to NW this year, but my QQQ is apparently up 45% this year!  I have it in a Roth account and sometimes wonder how it’s possible for so much money to be made by so many tech employees.  I’ve had it for so long that I forgot about it, but being up over 1000% it is becoming a substantial part of my NW…. The compounding is bonkers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on November 18, 2023, 03:54:50 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 17, 2023, 05:20:12 PM

I haven’t paid super close attention to NW this year, but my QQQ is apparently up 45% this year!  I have it in a Roth account and sometimes wonder how it’s possible for so much money to be made by so many tech employees.  I’ve had it for so long that I forgot about it, but being up over 1000% it is becoming a substantial part of my NW…. The compounding is bonkers.

Jonathan Clements has a a nice blog post about how the effect of compounding sneaks up on you: https://humbledollar.com/2018/03/the-tipping-point/

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on November 18, 2023, 11:05:07 AM

Quote from: Dicey on November 17, 2023, 08:58:52 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 17, 2023, 02:53:56 AM

There have been some big swings in the market this year - I was just looking at a spreadsheet where I track our NW. From mid July to the end of October, we had a decrease of almost 7% but much of that has already been reversed in just the past week! I did a big rebalance in March and haven't changed our asset allocation since then. Anyone else seeing big swings?

This "Anyone" freely admits she's not really paying attention. It's so unlikely that we'll ever run out of funds that I just don't worry about it any more.

I look forward to big swings.  Why?  Tax loss harvesting.  I was able to TLH $78,000 worth.  No, not a $78k loss, that's just what the sell/buy was.  I'm still under $3k in loss for this year.  Schwab's site is nice because I can go in and see what my realized loss is and if it flips over $3k, I'll do some selling for gains.

Now that everything is going up again, when I'm ready to buy, I'll buy.  I don't have to worry that I'm buying high because if things drop, then it'll be tax lost harvesting time again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on November 18, 2023, 12:52:04 PM

Never understood being excited by a chance to TLH.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on November 18, 2023, 01:01:35 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on November 18, 2023, 12:52:04 PM

Never understood being excited by a chance to TLH.

Especially in this case where they didn't reinvest. I see the tax benefits of selling at a loss more of a consolation prize when it happens.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on November 18, 2023, 03:37:35 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on November 18, 2023, 12:52:04 PM

Never understood being excited by a chance to TLH.

It's a way to reallocate in a taxable account without paying taxes.  If you don't need to reallocate in a taxable account, it's not really useful other than, depending on the situation, the $3K offset of ordinary income.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 18, 2023, 04:52:07 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on November 18, 2023, 03:37:35 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on November 18, 2023, 12:52:04 PM

Never understood being excited by a chance to TLH.

It's a way to reallocate in a taxable account without paying taxes.  If you don't need to reallocate in a taxable account, it's not really useful other than, depending on the situation, the $3K offset of ordinary income.

I harvested 30k or so from my bond funds last year changing between US and CA tax exempt.  I still have another 15k or so from changing between my old and new international funds a few years ago.  Never was out of the market and all 4 funds are ones I’m happy with.  When I start selling assets in retirement, it will keep my gains lower.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on November 18, 2023, 05:26:17 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on November 18, 2023, 04:52:07 PM

When I start selling assets in retirement, it will keep my gains lower.

How so, didn’t you lower your basis? Or did you mean it a different way?

I TLH and appreciate the $3k knocked off at our pretty high marginal rate, but I would prefer a string of 2021 type years and not 2022 types. (I don’t bother with small TLH moves, I just keep buying) Car Jack seems to be thrilled with their sell low buy high technique.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on November 19, 2023, 05:46:25 PM

Because I can now offset the first 50k in gains from my paper losses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on November 19, 2023, 06:06:49 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on November 19, 2023, 05:46:25 PM

Because I can now offset the first 50k in gains from my paper losses.

But those 50k in gains just get you back where you were. I would prefer to have 50k in gains from the original spot. As ixtap said, it’s sort of a consolation prize. Useful to do, but it’s just a good repair job after a fender bender that allowed you get some old scratches repainted. Nice to have, but I would rather not have the accident. At least in most cases. I have used some market blips to improve my portfolio by getting out of some pre-MMM/Bogleheads investments that were not the best. But now, when VTSAX dumps, it is not enjoyable to harvest losses.

Anyway, we are here in this thread to be happy and encourage current members and welcome newcomers to this wonderful level of portfolios.

I normally only update the household portfolio spreadsheet twice a year, maybe only once in Dec. i keep loose track and make rebalancing moves when needed, but never update 401k levels or add dividend reinvestment values. If the market can stay calm and not loose its mind over the next five weeks, we will pin a new all time high on the board. Especially with what should be a sizable taxable extra contribution in late December. End of year is arbitrary (unless we are talking taxes), but still will be nice.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on November 20, 2023, 01:29:15 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on November 19, 2023, 06:06:49 PM

End of year is arbitrary (unless we are talking taxes), but still will be nice.

We do our snapshots and rebalancing when RSUs vest. The vesting schedule changed when DH went part time, so we just skipped a snapshot rather than doing an extra.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on November 21, 2023, 10:46:20 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on November 18, 2023, 12:52:04 PM

Never understood being excited by a chance to TLH.

I see it as a chance to say "Oops, I bought too high, let's reset that and buy at the new, lower price and while we're at it, get a tax loss".  In this last bout, I sold BRK/b and bought SCHB.  The third I use for potential TLH pairs is VTI. 

If my taxable account goes to my heirs, everything gets stepped up in basis.  So even more win for the family.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 22, 2023, 04:38:01 PM

My investment strategy has gotten more and more simple. Majority about 80 percent is S&P 500 or VTSAX. The rest in a stable value fund or cash. A company pension that will soon pay about 60K a year for the longest living of either me or my wife. Drawing 4% off the 401K will supply more money than we've ever spent. Concentrating on hiking, boating and biking. My time as an investor are coming to a close. Other than a few Roth transfers, financial life is going to be simple.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Another Reader on November 23, 2023, 05:02:21 PM

Quote from: Dicey on November 17, 2023, 08:58:52 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on November 17, 2023, 02:53:56 AM

There have been some big swings in the market this year - I was just looking at a spreadsheet where I track our NW. From mid July to the end of October, we had a decrease of almost 7% but much of that has already been reversed in just the past week! I did a big rebalance in March and haven't changed our asset allocation since then. Anyone else seeing big swings?

This "Anyone" freely admits she's not really paying attention. It's so unlikely that we'll ever run out of funds that I just don't worry about it any more.

The rent checks, pension checks, and other sources of income roll in every month without fail.  Other than stacking cash in short term T-bills, I don't really look at the accounts much.  I guess if the SHTF in real estate, I might consider going into purchase mode again.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on November 23, 2023, 07:16:00 PM

We’re approaching behind territory (again), and I feel like we’re still in the middle of our accumulation phase. Well, also, a lot of what we have is tax-sheltered and in VTI or equivalent, so it’s not kicking off dividends or rents, and it feels awkward to think about selling it off. Instead, we’re still working. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on November 26, 2023, 01:25:49 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 22, 2023, 04:38:01 PM

My investment strategy has gotten more and more simple. Majority about 80 percent is S&P 500 or VTSAX. The rest in a stable value fund or cash. A company pension that will soon pay about 60K a year for the longest living of either me or my wife. Drawing 4% off the 401K will supply more money than we've ever spent. Concentrating on hiking, boating and biking. My time as an investor are coming to a close. Other than a few Roth transfers, financial life is going to be simple.

I am in a similar boat, retired and no longer focused on fine tuning my portfolio. I have five years of expenses in CDs and another five years in total bond funds, the rest is in total market funds or similar. Our current focus is to enjoy life by spending money, booked our December trip to Mexico, January trip to Ecuador, and February-March trip to Asia, each one is longer than the previous one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on November 27, 2023, 07:39:38 PM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 26, 2023, 01:25:49 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 22, 2023, 04:38:01 PM

My investment strategy has gotten more and more simple. Majority about 80 percent is S&P 500 or VTSAX. The rest in a stable value fund or cash. A company pension that will soon pay about 60K a year for the longest living of either me or my wife. Drawing 4% off the 401K will supply more money than we've ever spent. Concentrating on hiking, boating and biking. My time as an investor are coming to a close. Other than a few Roth transfers, financial life is going to be simple.

I am in a similar boat, retired and no longer focused on fine tuning my portfolio. I have five years of expenses in CDs and another five years in total bond funds, the rest is in total market funds or similar. Our current focus is to enjoy life by spending money, booked our December trip to Mexico, January trip to Ecuador, and February-March trip to Asia, each one is longer than the previous one.

Once the total is big enough and the cash/bond portion of that is big enough you're done. Tax strategy maybe a little. I'm thinking we'll be in the 22 percent bracket most of our lives. If we move up a bracket, is that really a reason to complain in retirement!?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 08, 2023, 03:32:28 PM

With the market runup in the last couple of months and the real estate market values going up for the last several years, we've just crossed into "and Beyond" territory.

To celebrate, we're sending enough for the kids at a local children's home to buy themselves a nice Christmas present.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 09, 2023, 04:57:35 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 08, 2023, 03:32:28 PM

With the market runup in the last couple of months and the real estate market values going up for the last several years, we've just crossed into "and Beyond" territory.

To celebrate, we're sending enough for the kids at a local children's home to buy themselves a nice Christmas present.

Bravo @SwordGuy !!   That sounds like an amazing way to celebrate!  Congrats on all fronts -- well done!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on December 11, 2023, 09:58:29 AM

Quote from: flyingaway on November 26, 2023, 01:25:49 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on November 22, 2023, 04:38:01 PM

My investment strategy has gotten more and more simple. Majority about 80 percent is S&P 500 or VTSAX. The rest in a stable value fund or cash. A company pension that will soon pay about 60K a year for the longest living of either me or my wife. Drawing 4% off the 401K will supply more money than we've ever spent. Concentrating on hiking, boating and biking. My time as an investor are coming to a close. Other than a few Roth transfers, financial life is going to be simple.

I am in a similar boat, retired and no longer focused on fine tuning my portfolio. I have five years of expenses in CDs and another five years in total bond funds, the rest is in total market funds or similar. Our current focus is to enjoy life by spending money, booked our December trip to Mexico, January trip to Ecuador, and February-March trip to Asia, each one is longer than the previous one.

Added another month-long April-May Europe trip, flying into Rome and out of Madrid, with the details to be figured out. We will probably spend more time in our vegetable and fruit tree garden during the summer months and evaluate the effects of travel on our life to see what to do in the future. Retirement life is to try many things and figure out the best for us. Hopefully we will stay in this club indefinitely and enjoy our retirement life enormously.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on December 13, 2023, 05:13:21 AM

As the market has clawed back up on the US side, I have really started moving some money to get with our desired glide path. The normal equity heavy buying in our taxable account throughout 2022 and 2023 are seeing these lovely gains and have easily outpaced the US Bond Index buying I have been doing in my 401k. I have a mix of funds in there, but I expect to have it simplified down to just US Bond in the next month as our yearly bonuses are going to be pretty high this year. After that it will be time to start chopping some VTSAX in my Rollover IRA. I need more time to continue learning about TIPS to see what makes good sense to do there.

Current AA is about 87% equity with desired retirement being closer to 65%, maybe even down to 60%. With only a couple years left before I plan to hang it up, I would like to use a glide rather than freefall shifting, so it will take some actual commitment to do it. The problem is when equities slide as they will do at some point, I tend to stop paying attention. Poor me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Poundwise on December 14, 2023, 12:52:16 PM

Hola, I'm joining this group! Joint NW with my husband seems to fluctuate around $2.8M.  We're pretty stealth, though; most of our money is in the house or in the market. Plus if we began to spend like the people around us, this nest egg would disappear pretty soon.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on December 14, 2023, 01:07:16 PM

Quote from: Poundwise on December 14, 2023, 12:52:16 PM

Hola, I'm joining this group! Joint NW with my husband seems to fluctuate around $2.8M.  We're pretty stealth, though; most of our money is in the house or in the market. Plus if we began to spend like the people around us, this nest egg would disappear pretty soon.

DH's colleagues marvel at the fact that he can afford to go part time, while also telling him he is under charging to tutor their kids in their coding classes and inviting us to join them at the trendiest restaurant...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on December 14, 2023, 01:50:38 PM

Maybe 5 years ago, I watched a Jack Bogle interview where he talked about why he didn't invest in international companies.  My own take is to ask: Name me a US company that does nothing internationally.  I can't think of any.  I've been holding VEA (developed international) for maybe 10 years frozen with dividends going to VTI.  I finally looked at its performance and decided it was time.  Sold it all and bought VTI so I'm now in a two fund.

In my ongoing quest to rid myself of interest and dividends in taxable, I sold about $30k I was holding in SPAXX (Fidelity money market fund) and bought BRK/b in taxable.  Good timing.  Went up maybe a grand so far.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on December 14, 2023, 02:16:09 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 14, 2023, 01:50:38 PM

Maybe 5 years ago, I watched a Jack Bogle interview where he talked about why he didn't invest in international companies.  My own take is to ask: Name me a US company that does nothing internationally.  I can't think of any.  I've been holding VEA (developed international) for maybe 10 years frozen with dividends going to VTI.  I finally looked at its performance and decided it was time.  Sold it all and bought VTI so I'm now in a two fund.

In my ongoing quest to rid myself of interest and dividends in taxable, I sold about $30k I was holding in SPAXX (Fidelity money market fund) and bought BRK/b in taxable.  Good timing.  Went up maybe a grand so far.

I have about 30% international via VEU/VXUS, it's never overperfomed VTI... Oh well, not quitting now haha. The dividends are higher, so that's a double edged sword of helping during downturns but also more taxable income (though it's the best type of taxable).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: weebs on December 14, 2023, 03:02:40 PM

The recent market returns pushed our LNW over $2M, so I'm joining the group.  Both DW and I are fortunate enough to get pensions and the house is paid for.  It's hard for me to believe, but our TNW is just over the 'and Beyond' threshold, depending on how we count the pensions.

Quote from: Poundwise on December 14, 2023, 12:52:16 PM

We're pretty stealth, though; most of our money is in the house or in the market.

Stealth is the way.  I'm a WFH techie, so my wardrobe can charitably be described as 'Mountain Thriftstore'.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 14, 2023, 04:03:44 PM

Quote from: weebs on December 14, 2023, 03:02:40 PM

The recent market returns pushed our LNW over $2M, so I'm joining the group.  Both DW and I are fortunate enough to get pensions and the house is paid for.  It's hard for me to believe, but our TNW is just over the 'and Beyond' threshold, depending on how we count the pensions.

Quote from: Poundwise on December 14, 2023, 12:52:16 PM

We're pretty stealth, though; most of our money is in the house or in the market.

Stealth is the way.  I'm a WFH techie, so my wardrobe can charitably be described as 'Mountain Thriftstore'.

@weebs  and @Poundwise  Welcome to the club! With the big market increase in the past few weeks, I felt sure we would get new members. Do you feel comfortable now that you have reached this threshold?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 14, 2023, 04:31:42 PM

Quote from: weebs on December 14, 2023, 03:02:40 PM

The recent market returns pushed our LNW over $2M, so I'm joining the group.  Both DW and I are fortunate enough to get pensions and the house is paid for.  It's hard for me to believe, but our TNW is just over the 'and Beyond' threshold, depending on how we count the pensions.

Quote from: Poundwise on December 14, 2023, 12:52:16 PM

We're pretty stealth, though; most of our money is in the house or in the market.

Stealth is the way.  I'm a WFH techie, so my wardrobe can charitably be described as 'Mountain Thriftstore'.

Lol, our kids live in Aspen. We love the setting, but could care less about the chi-chi stuff. We always pop in to the thrift store at least once when we visit. Better still, there's a thrift store at the Pitkin County Recycle Center, aka the town dump. Magnificent!  We feel delightfully subversive shopping there, and do so as often as we can.

I worked at my thrift shop today and found a lovely Patagonia vest for my granddaughter for $10. It won't fit her until next year, and her mama won't care if it doesn't have tags on it. Score!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Poundwise on December 14, 2023, 05:01:45 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 14, 2023, 04:03:44 PM

Quote from: weebs on December 14, 2023, 03:02:40 PM

The recent market returns pushed our LNW over $2M, so I'm joining the group.  Both DW and I are fortunate enough to get pensions and the house is paid for.  It's hard for me to believe, but our TNW is just over the 'and Beyond' threshold, depending on how we count the pensions.

Quote from: Poundwise on December 14, 2023, 12:52:16 PM

We're pretty stealth, though; most of our money is in the house or in the market.

Stealth is the way.  I'm a WFH techie, so my wardrobe can charitably be described as 'Mountain Thriftstore'.

@weebs  and @Poundwise  Welcome to the club! With the big market increase in the past few weeks, I felt sure we would get new members. Do you feel comfortable now that you have reached this threshold?

Thanks! On some days I feel comfortable, but I feel like I'm approaching a turning point.  Previously we were just focused on earning and saving, but as we approach or have surpassed FI, I'm rethinking how we spend our money and time.  Whenever we go without or do something cheap, I wonder is this really necessary? Couldn't we be a bit more wasteful? In general, I continue the way I have done, since I figure that whatever I save, I can donate and it will disappear soundlessly into the great needy maw of human suffering.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: weebs on December 14, 2023, 05:12:14 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 14, 2023, 04:03:44 PM

Welcome to the club! With the big market increase in the past few weeks, I felt sure we would get new members. Do you feel comfortable now that you have reached this threshold?

Thanks!  Weirdly...no.  Due to our backgrounds, both DW and I have some work to do in order to unwind our scarcity mindset.  I'm making progress, but I still have a ways to go.  I've been contemplating starting a journal here to help marshal some of my thoughts.  To be fair, two of our close friends from college have recently had serious medical issues.  One is managing, the other may never walk again.  On one hand, it drives home the point that life is short.  On the other hand, we see first hand how important it is to have good medical coverage and to have your house in good financial order.  Thankfully, we're both active and healthy and will stay that way as long as possible.

Quote from: Dicey on December 14, 2023, 04:31:42 PM

Lol, our kids live in Aspen. We love the setting, but could care less about the chi-chi stuff. We always pop in to the thrift store at least once when we visit. Better still, there's a thrift store at the Pitkin County Recycle Center, aka the town dump. Magnificent!  We feel delightfully subversive shopping there, and do so as often as we can.

I worked at my thrift shop today and found a lovely Patagonia vest for my granddaughter for $10. It won't fit her until next year, and her mama won't care if it doesn't have tags on it. Score!

Aspen is the real deal and absolutely beautiful. If we were closer, I'd be on that recycle center like a fat kid on cake.  DW and I live in the mountains ~40 miles west of Denver at just under 8000 ft.  I'd love to move over to the western slope, but that's not in the cards just yet.  Thanks for the warm welcome and nice score on the Patagonia jacket.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 14, 2023, 09:57:49 PM

I’m 19 month from the RE part.  I also have a pension so even though I feel I have enough, my inner bag lady won’t give up the immediate pension and the ability to keep my healthcare. 

Right now I’m seriously thinking about what areas I want to spend more on that actually enrich my life.  Mostly it’s “little things”. Getting what produce I want at the store, trying not to worry about choosing to eat out while on vacation vs eating say half my meals from the grocery store in some way, taking a weekend trip to Yosemite just because I want to.  (Well since I went last week, it was way cheaper for a hotel room).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 15, 2023, 12:11:05 AM

Quote from: weebs on December 14, 2023, 05:12:14 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 14, 2023, 04:31:42 PM

Lol, our kids live in Aspen. We love the setting, but could care less about the chi-chi stuff. We always pop in to the thrift store at least once when we visit. Better still, there's a thrift store at the Pitkin County Recycle Center, aka the town dump. Magnificent!  We feel delightfully subversive shopping there, and do so as often as we can.

I worked at my thrift shop today and found a lovely Patagonia vest for my granddaughter for $10. It won't fit her until next year, and her mama won't care if it doesn't have tags on it. Score!

Aspen is the real deal and absolutely beautiful. If we were closer, I'd be on that recycle center like a fat kid on cake.  DW and I live in the mountains ~40 miles west of Denver at just under 8000 ft.  I'd love to move over to the western slope, but that's not in the cards just yet.  Thanks for the warm welcome and nice score on the Patagonia jacket.

Thanks! Do you know about Aspen's employee housing program, called APCHA? It's an affordable program for Pitkin County employees. If I wanted to live there, I'd move there, take a coast-FIRE job for a couple of years, long enough to qualify for APCHA housing, buy a way-below market place and live happily ever after. I believe Vail and Breck's programs are modeled after this one.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 15, 2023, 02:51:27 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 14, 2023, 09:57:49 PM

Right now I’m seriously thinking about what areas I want to spend more on that actually enrich my life.  Mostly it’s “little things”. Getting what produce I want at the store, trying not to worry about choosing to eat out while on vacation vs eating say half my meals from the grocery store in some way, taking a weekend trip to Yosemite just because I want to.  (Well since I went last week, it was way cheaper for a hotel room).

I do all the grocery shopping in my household - my wife hates this chore. A few years ago, my wife was looking at my haul from Whole Foods and asked me how much I had paid for some eggplants. I had no idea - I wanted them for a dish I had in mind and just put them in my cart without looking at the price. It was at that moment I realized I had crossed some threshold in my mind :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 15, 2023, 09:12:07 AM

All the Colorado talk has reminded me to book my fall trip to the Rockies. Colorado thrift stores for the win!
Isn't it great to take vacations and not have to schedule vacation time at work!
I'm backpacking the Florida Trail in two weeks!  Hiking to my house which is on the trail at Mike 420. The whole trail is almost 1200 miles. I'll be a trail angel and trail maintainer as well.
All the best to you guys. Enjoy the holidays and everyday.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on December 15, 2023, 09:44:28 AM

Quote from: weebs on December 14, 2023, 03:02:40 PM

The recent market returns pushed our LNW over $2M, so I'm joining the group.  Both DW and I are fortunate enough to get pensions and the house is paid for.  It's hard for me to believe, but our TNW is just over the 'and Beyond' threshold, depending on how we count the pensions.

Quote from: Poundwise on December 14, 2023, 12:52:16 PM

We're pretty stealth, though; most of our money is in the house or in the market.

Stealth is the way.  I'm a WFH techie, so my wardrobe can charitably be described as 'Mountain Thriftstore'.

Complete with an array of freebie t-shirts from IT vendors.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: weebs on December 15, 2023, 10:29:41 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 15, 2023, 12:11:05 AM

Do you know about Aspen's employee housing program, called APCHA? It's an affordable program for Pitkin County employees. If I wanted to live there, I'd move there, take a coast-FIRE job for a couple of years, long enough to qualify for APCHA housing, buy a way-below market place and live happily ever after. I believe Vail and Breck's programs are modeled after this one.

Huh...I wasn't aware of the program.  Lack of affordable housing is very much a thing in the resort towns, so it's good to hear that they have something in place to help folks out.  DH's sister and her family live in Steamboat.  Thankfully, they bought a place in 2004 before it got too crazy.  I was obsessed with living there for a while, but have settled into rural life and would have a hard time living in town, especially during ski season.

Quote from: Bateaux on December 15, 2023, 09:12:07 AM

I'm backpacking the Florida Trail in two weeks!  Hiking to my house which is on the trail at Mike 420. The whole trail is almost 1200 miles. I'll be a trail angel and trail maintainer as well.

That sounds fantastic.  Enjoy!

Quote from: Turtle on December 15, 2023, 09:44:28 AM

Complete with an array of freebie t-shirts from IT vendors.

It's like you can see into my closet.  ;-)  All but one of the vendors/companies for which I have swag have gone under or been acquired.  I got a backpack one year at Uberconf and it's pretty much my paci when I travel.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!be
Post by: itchyfeet on December 16, 2023, 09:15:26 AM

Thought I might check in.

I have settled into Paris life pretty well. I’ve been living here for around 6 weeks now.

I  managed to find a great apartment in a very nice location. I’ve signed a 1 year lease so that will see me through to the other side of the Olympics. I’ve also managed to open a bank account which was a challenge , but am not making much progress on the work visa front yet. Bureaucracy!

I am enjoying my job for the first time in 5 or so years, and I’ve even managed to make a few freindly acquaintances outside of work. So all good.

I still don’t speak a lick of French (maybe “un peu” lick) which is often quite frustrating but I manage.

I’m flying back to Australia for a few weeks over XMas to enjoy some blue skies and trees and then my wife will join me in Paris and life here will really begin to take shape.

I am Not sure what my FIRE horizon is now? 12 months? 2 years maybe even 3 years? I been going to FIRE for the past 4 years but just keep locking in more and grandiose lifestyle creep plans for post FIRE…. Actually I’m starting to get into FIR territory and can drop the E. At least my DW is now FIRE. Her past day f her working life was last week.

2024 will be a big year. We will be 2 months in Paris, 1 month in Australia throughout the year. We will see how that suits us and how long my employer tolerates paying for my gypsy ways. As I am FI, we will only stick with it as long as it’s enjoyable living in 2 homes on opposite ends of the world.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: TempusFugit on December 16, 2023, 03:09:33 PM

Hi there, fellow millionaires.    Thought I'd introduce myself now that the market has nudged me past the $2M milestone. 

I'm a software and engineering guy (shocking, right).  I've been at my current fortune 500 company for over 25 years. I appreciate my job and I don't hate it or anything, especially the past few years when I've been able to work from home most of the time, but I am tired of having the obligations on my time and energy.  I very much appreciate how fortunate I've been in the lottery of life.  Being born in this place and time to parents that loved me and provided for me, and having whatever modest gifts I have, those are all things that I can't claim to have earned by my own hard work and I recognize that. At best I can claim to have taken advantage of these things and not screwed it up too badly.

I joined the forums in 2017 after hearing about MMM on the Tim Ferris podcast.  I was already an investor and better than average with regard to my savings habits.  Thanks to my parents I guess for setting a good example. Once I read the MMM blog and started visiting the forums I got a bit more serious about simplifying my investments and tracking my spending.  At that time, I was thinking it would be great if I could be ready to retire in 2022 with a yearly spending goal of around $50K with a stash of $1.2M.  Of course the markets were good and I passed that number before then but strangely, my financial goals changed : )  It was also really easy to rationalize not retiring in 2022 given the conditions! 

I'm still working with no firm retirement date set, but I am starting to get serious about planning.  I'm using mid-2025 as a soft target date because it would be the year I turn 55, which has some marginal benefit at my company regarding health care.  The difference isn't much, but it's about $40K of free money, so I figure I'll take it.   

My goal at the moment is to have enough set aside with a solid plan so that I can be confident that I could leave work. I want to leverage that confidence to take some time off as a trial retirement (3 months at least) or possibly transition to part time work if I can negotiate that with my current company. Failing that, I may just leave and do some occasional freelance work if I need something to occupy my time. 

Obviously we all recognize that if we're in this group we don't have to work if we don't want to, but we have different lifestyle desires and financial fear thresholds with which to contend.  I'm planning a spending level of about $85K. Up to now, I've been using a simple spreadsheet to track my savings and spending and applying the 4% rule to get a feel for my progress.  I've used FIRECalc and the like for benchmarking my numbers. Now I'm plugging things into a more detailed retirement planning package (NewRetirement) and after the holidays I'm going to find a CFP to get a second opinion. If all those things show that I'm financially ready to pull the trigger (or will be in 18 months), then I guess I'll be out of excuses and will have to start planning a life!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on December 16, 2023, 03:52:53 PM

Quote from: TempusFugit on December 16, 2023, 03:09:33 PM

Hi there, fellow millionaires.    Thought I'd introduce myself now that the market has nudged me past the $2M milestone. 

I'm a software and engineering guy (shocking, right).  I've been at my current fortune 500 company for over 25 years. I appreciate my job and I don't hate it or anything, especially the past few years when I've been able to work from home most of the time, but I am tired of having the obligations on my time and energy.  I very much appreciate how fortunate I've been in the lottery of life.  Being born in this place and time to parents that loved me and provided for me, and having whatever modest gifts I have, those are all things that I can't claim to have earned by my own hard work and I recognize that. At best I can claim to have taken advantage of these things and not screwed it up too badly.

I joined the forums in 2017 after hearing about MMM on the Tim Ferris podcast.  I was already an investor and better than average with regard to my savings habits.  Thanks to my parents I guess for setting a good example. Once I read the MMM blog and started visiting the forums I got a bit more serious about simplifying my investments and tracking my spending.  At that time, I was thinking it would be great if I could be ready to retire in 2022 with a yearly spending goal of around $50K with a stash of $1.2M.  Of course the markets were good and I passed that number before then but strangely, my financial goals changed : )  It was also really easy to rationalize not retiring in 2022 given the conditions! 

I'm still working with no firm retirement date set, but I am starting to get serious about planning.  I'm using mid-2025 as a soft target date because it would be the year I turn 55, which has some marginal benefit at my company regarding health care.  The difference isn't much, but it's about $40K of free money, so I figure I'll take it.   

My goal at the moment is to have enough set aside with a solid plan so that I can be confident that I could leave work. I want to leverage that confidence to take some time off as a trial retirement (3 months at least) or possibly transition to part time work if I can negotiate that with my current company. Failing that, I may just leave and do some occasional freelance work if I need something to occupy my time. 

Obviously we all recognize that if we're in this group we don't have to work if we don't want to, but we have different lifestyle desires and financial fear thresholds with which to contend.  I'm planning a spending level of about $85K. Up to now, I've been using a simple spreadsheet to track my savings and spending and applying the 4% rule to get a feel for my progress.  I've used FIRECalc and the like for benchmarking my numbers. Now I'm plugging things into a more detailed retirement planning package (NewRetirement) and after the holidays I'm going to find a CFP to get a second opinion. If all those things show that I'm financially ready to pull the trigger (or will be in 18 months), then I guess I'll be out of excuses and will have to start planning a life!

Sounds like good planning.  There is not only the financial effect on your life, but you may need to plan for the mental changes as well.  Retirement may uproot your way of life.  I need not elaborate.  Others have done that better than I ever could AND everyone has a unique situation.  I think Bateaux has provided a good example of one who has it together.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 17, 2023, 06:58:50 PM

Quote from: TempusFugit on December 16, 2023, 03:09:33 PM

Hi there, fellow millionaires.    Thought I'd introduce myself now that the market has nudged me past the $2M milestone. 

I'm a software and engineering guy (shocking, right).  I've been at my current fortune 500 company for over 25 years. I appreciate my job and I don't hate it or anything, especially the past few years when I've been able to work from home most of the time, but I am tired of having the obligations on my time and energy.  I very much appreciate how fortunate I've been in the lottery of life.  Being born in this place and time to parents that loved me and provided for me, and having whatever modest gifts I have, those are all things that I can't claim to have earned by my own hard work and I recognize that. At best I can claim to have taken advantage of these things and not screwed it up too badly.

I joined the forums in 2017 after hearing about MMM on the Tim Ferris podcast.  I was already an investor and better than average with regard to my savings habits.  Thanks to my parents I guess for setting a good example. Once I read the MMM blog and started visiting the forums I got a bit more serious about simplifying my investments and tracking my spending.  At that time, I was thinking it would be great if I could be ready to retire in 2022 with a yearly spending goal of around $50K with a stash of $1.2M.  Of course the markets were good and I passed that number before then but strangely, my financial goals changed : )  It was also really easy to rationalize not retiring in 2022 given the conditions! 

I'm still working with no firm retirement date set, but I am starting to get serious about planning.  I'm using mid-2025 as a soft target date because it would be the year I turn 55, which has some marginal benefit at my company regarding health care.  The difference isn't much, but it's about $40K of free money, so I figure I'll take it.   

My goal at the moment is to have enough set aside with a solid plan so that I can be confident that I could leave work. I want to leverage that confidence to take some time off as a trial retirement (3 months at least) or possibly transition to part time work if I can negotiate that with my current company. Failing that, I may just leave and do some occasional freelance work if I need something to occupy my time. 

Obviously we all recognize that if we're in this group we don't have to work if we don't want to, but we have different lifestyle desires and financial fear thresholds with which to contend.  I'm planning a spending level of about $85K. Up to now, I've been using a simple spreadsheet to track my savings and spending and applying the 4% rule to get a feel for my progress.  I've used FIRECalc and the like for benchmarking my numbers. Now I'm plugging things into a more detailed retirement planning package (NewRetirement) and after the holidays I'm going to find a CFP to get a second opinion. If all those things show that I'm financially ready to pull the trigger (or will be in 18 months), then I guess I'll be out of excuses and will have to start planning a life!

Welcome @TempusFugit  -- your situation has some similarities to mine and we're possibly on a similar timeline, although I'm currently battling OMY syndrome in my planning/analysis.    A spending of $85K is fantastic, but don't forget to keep in mind that, as a software engineer for a fortune 500 company for 25+ years, you will get social security as well!  Agree with @pecunia as well that, the bigger challenge may be -- retiring to what?   Which is where I've been doing some introspection over the past few months.   

Anyways, welcome and I look forward to sharing our experiences on this journey!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on December 18, 2023, 06:22:39 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 15, 2023, 09:12:07 AM

All the Colorado talk has reminded me to book my fall trip to the Rockies. Colorado thrift stores for the win!
Isn't it great to take vacations and not have to schedule vacation time at work!
I'm backpacking the Florida Trail in two weeks!  Hiking to my house which is on the trail at Mike 420. The whole trail is almost 1200 miles. I'll be a trail angel and trail maintainer as well.
All the best to you guys. Enjoy the holidays and everyday.

Your trips are so awesome to hear about! have a great time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on December 18, 2023, 07:19:26 AM

So to explain tax loss harvesting a bit more, it's not buy high, sell low.  It's "I bought high" and now the market has dropped.  So as long as it's been over 30 days, I sell the one that was bought high.  But at the same time, I buy an equal amount of something that's nearly identical.  The result is that the loss from selling at a lower price gives me a loss for my taxes but buying the near identical keeps me invested, but at the new, low basis.

For example, sell VTI at a loss and buy SCHB.  If you look at their charts over time, they're nearly identical.  It's like if someone looked at my investments and said, "hey Jack.  You paid way too much for VTI and I see you're also in SCHB.  What would you think if I could get you a tax loss and keep you fully invested in this total US stock type ETF?".  My answer would be "Sure.  I could use the tax loss to reduce my taxes and then I reduce my total basis and overall, I take no actual loss as the market corrects back up".  Sure, I'm assuming the market is going to go back up.  But don't we all assume this?  If not, we'd all be 100% in CDs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 18, 2023, 08:48:28 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 18, 2023, 07:19:26 AM

So to explain tax loss harvesting a bit more, it's not buy high, sell low.  It's "I bought high" and now the market has dropped.  So as long as it's been over 30 days, I sell the one that was bought high.  But at the same time, I buy an equal amount of something that's nearly identical.  The result is that the loss from selling at a lower price gives me a loss for my taxes but buying the near identical keeps me invested, but at the new, low basis.

For example, sell VTI at a loss and buy SCHB.  If you look at their charts over time, they're nearly identical.  It's like if someone looked at my investments and said, "hey Jack.  You paid way too much for VTI and I see you're also in SCHB.  What would you think if I could get you a tax loss and keep you fully invested in this total US stock type ETF?".  My answer would be "Sure.  I could use the tax loss to reduce my taxes and then I reduce my total basis and overall, I take no actual loss as the market corrects back up".  Sure, I'm assuming the market is going to go back up.  But don't we all assume this?  If not, we'd all be 100% in CDs.

May I add to your questions, please? My BIL is keen to do some TLH with an inherited account. As we understand from the IRS website, there's a $3k/year cap, with the balance to be rolled forward. Why bother for $3k? Are we missing something?

We already do this with some old rental losses, is it even possible to do both?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 18, 2023, 10:46:20 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 17, 2023, 06:58:50 PM

Quote from: TempusFugit on December 16, 2023, 03:09:33 PM

Hi there, fellow millionaires.    Thought I'd introduce myself now that the market has nudged me past the $2M milestone. 

I'm a software and engineering guy (shocking, right).  I've been at my current fortune 500 company for over 25 years. I appreciate my job and I don't hate it or anything, especially the past few years when I've been able to work from home most of the time, but I am tired of having the obligations on my time and energy.  I very much appreciate how fortunate I've been in the lottery of life.  Being born in this place and time to parents that loved me and provided for me, and having whatever modest gifts I have, those are all things that I can't claim to have earned by my own hard work and I recognize that. At best I can claim to have taken advantage of these things and not screwed it up too badly.

I joined the forums in 2017 after hearing about MMM on the Tim Ferris podcast.  I was already an investor and better than average with regard to my savings habits.  Thanks to my parents I guess for setting a good example. Once I read the MMM blog and started visiting the forums I got a bit more serious about simplifying my investments and tracking my spending.  At that time, I was thinking it would be great if I could be ready to retire in 2022 with a yearly spending goal of around $50K with a stash of $1.2M.  Of course the markets were good and I passed that number before then but strangely, my financial goals changed : )  It was also really easy to rationalize not retiring in 2022 given the conditions! 

I'm still working with no firm retirement date set, but I am starting to get serious about planning.  I'm using mid-2025 as a soft target date because it would be the year I turn 55, which has some marginal benefit at my company regarding health care.  The difference isn't much, but it's about $40K of free money, so I figure I'll take it.   

My goal at the moment is to have enough set aside with a solid plan so that I can be confident that I could leave work. I want to leverage that confidence to take some time off as a trial retirement (3 months at least) or possibly transition to part time work if I can negotiate that with my current company. Failing that, I may just leave and do some occasional freelance work if I need something to occupy my time. 

Obviously we all recognize that if we're in this group we don't have to work if we don't want to, but we have different lifestyle desires and financial fear thresholds with which to contend.  I'm planning a spending level of about $85K. Up to now, I've been using a simple spreadsheet to track my savings and spending and applying the 4% rule to get a feel for my progress.  I've used FIRECalc and the like for benchmarking my numbers. Now I'm plugging things into a more detailed retirement planning package (NewRetirement) and after the holidays I'm going to find a CFP to get a second opinion. If all those things show that I'm financially ready to pull the trigger (or will be in 18 months), then I guess I'll be out of excuses and will have to start planning a life!

Welcome @TempusFugit  -- your situation has some similarities to mine and we're possibly on a similar timeline, although I'm currently battling OMY syndrome in my planning/analysis.    A spending of $85K is fantastic, but don't forget to keep in mind that, as a software engineer for a fortune 500 company for 25+ years, you will get social security as well!  Agree with @pecunia as well that, the bigger challenge may be -- retiring to what?   Which is where I've been doing some introspection over the past few months.   

Anyways, welcome and I look forward to sharing our experiences on this journey!

Welcome @TempusFugit from me as well! 

Thought I'd chime in because my situation is similar, but we are a bit ahead of you.  I'm also a "tech guy" working for a megacorp...for 31 years now.  I'm pretty much burned out, don't have the will to "keep up" anymore like I used to, and am battling MASSIVE motivation issues.  The company may likely say "bye-bye" before I do.  However, I am targeting early 2025...when I will also turn 55 years old, because there are a few additional benefits at my megacorp when you reach that age.

Luckily, since we are almost at "and beyond" territory in terms of savings, I could very well pull the trigger whenever I want to.   The brokerage (stock trading) account has done MUCH better than anticipated this year due to some "lucky" trades...and is the reason the "and beyond" goal is sight.   And I agree with @arcturus...don't forget about Social Security...it ends up to be a substantial amount of cash, especially for those who have had long careers in highly compensated fields.

One thing I've discovered is that pulling the trigger on early retirement is harder than I thought it would be.   OMY syndrome is a very real thing...but I'm getting to the point when cutting the cord with the corporate world will happen sooner rather than later.

One more thing...I heartily recommend https://ficalc.app/ for retirement planning....perhaps the best free tool I have found.  It allows you to play around with many things, including many different withdrawal strategies, etc...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on December 18, 2023, 12:46:31 PM

We’re also flirting with “Beyond” territory, though I’m 60 50 and DW is a few years younger. I was really losing motivation and becoming super cynical, anxious and depressed at mini-megacorp where I had been for a long time. I had intentions to FIRE, but kids are expensive(!) and hedonic adaptation has see in. I changed jobs and it relieved most of the cynicism and anxiety and almost all the depression.

I’m having fun enough with the work to keep doing it. It’s amazing at this stage how much the stach grows every year with the combination of contributions and even modest gains. I don’t know if I’ll go all the way to 55 like the recent posters, but I’m pretty sure I won’t go beyond that.

As we start the new year, we’re going to update our estate planning and arrange a session with a financial planner (fee only) to get some different perspectives on what’s next. With our “safe” withdrawal rate in the six figures now, and social security out there eventually (maybe?), it would be worth considering our options. Meanwhile it’s kids’ sports all the time, and that’s fun and active and social and community-building.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on December 18, 2023, 02:10:04 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 18, 2023, 08:48:28 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 18, 2023, 07:19:26 AM

So to explain tax loss harvesting a bit more, it's not buy high, sell low.  It's "I bought high" and now the market has dropped.  So as long as it's been over 30 days, I sell the one that was bought high.  But at the same time, I buy an equal amount of something that's nearly identical.  The result is that the loss from selling at a lower price gives me a loss for my taxes but buying the near identical keeps me invested, but at the new, low basis.

For example, sell VTI at a loss and buy SCHB.  If you look at their charts over time, they're nearly identical.  It's like if someone looked at my investments and said, "hey Jack.  You paid way too much for VTI and I see you're also in SCHB.  What would you think if I could get you a tax loss and keep you fully invested in this total US stock type ETF?".  My answer would be "Sure.  I could use the tax loss to reduce my taxes and then I reduce my total basis and overall, I take no actual loss as the market corrects back up".  Sure, I'm assuming the market is going to go back up.  But don't we all assume this?  If not, we'd all be 100% in CDs.

May I add to your questions, please? My BIL is keen to do some TLH with an inherited account. As we understand from the IRS website, there's a $3k/year cap, with the balance to be rolled forward. Why bother for $3k? Are we missing something?

We already do this with some old rental losses, is it even possible to do both?

@Car Jack, yep, that's the idea.

If you sell, recognize the loss, and buy a substantially identical (or identical) security, the law disallows that, because that's too much of a tax freebee and people would be TLH every second.  So they make you either wait 30 days before/after, or the loss gets deferred.  This is called a wash sale and the wash sale rule.

But yes, if you sell and buy something that is not substantially identical, then you can recognize the loss and stay fully invested without changing your asset allocation.  People do this a lot, particularly in December at the end of the tax year.

@Dicey, the rules are different than you describe.  Realized losses fully offset realized gains first, then $3K of losses offsets ordinary income, then any remaining loss is carried forward to the next year.  Lather, rinse, repeat until the loss is used up or the taxpayer dies.  So if you have $40K in capital gains, then you could realize $40K of capital losses and your net capital gains that year would be zero.  Also of note, $40K in STCG which would be taxed at ordinary income tax rates can be offset by $40K of LTCL, which might have been taxed at 0%.

I'm not sure how rental losses behave, so I won't try to answer your second question.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 02:27:01 PM

My hot take on TLH is that it's relatively easy to account for (losses get carried forward each year on your returns, both short term and long term losses), you get an easy 3k offset of income each year, and if you ever sell and realize capital gains, you can save a ton on taxes.  The Mustachian Person Problem is that I haven't sold and realized much capital gains over the years, so I just have this really valuable accounting line item that I'll likely die with.  I stopped TLH years ago for this very reason (once I hit ~$100k).  There is no harm in building up these accounting losses, but I question how valuable they are for Mustachians, unless the plan is to spend the portfolio (which, let's be realistic, nobody in this thread seems to be doing)...  I'll personally get more valuable tax benefits and personal satisfaction out of a number of other tax strategies like a donor-advised fund or trust.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on December 18, 2023, 02:31:32 PM

I will add one comment about tax loss harvesting. A wash sale is not illegal, or even against the rules. You can "wash sale" all day long if you want. It just disallows claiming the loss. A wash sale should be avoided of course in probably 99.99%, or more, of cases.

I mention it because I have seen some almost panicky posts about it. I would think every brokerage these days does a good job of taking care of the paperwork.

Probably not a bad thing to do a TLH once to get a feel for the moving pieces. I have only done it a couple times, GFC and mid-2022. Others do it whenever possible. Other never do it. If you have a sizable taxable account and we have a monster pullback, it can be very lucrative.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on December 18, 2023, 02:36:21 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on December 18, 2023, 02:31:32 PM

I will add one comment about tax loss harvesting. A wash sale is not illegal, or even against the rules. You can "wash sale" all day long if you want. It just disallows claiming the loss. A wash sale should be avoided of course in probably 99.99%, or more, of cases.

Most of the time, it doesn't even disallow claiming the loss.  It just defers the loss to when you sell the shares that you bought which created the wash sale - the so called replacement shares.  The main exception where the loss does end up getting "wasted" is if you bought the replacement shares inside an IRA.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 18, 2023, 03:01:01 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on December 18, 2023, 02:36:21 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on December 18, 2023, 02:31:32 PM

I will add one comment about tax loss harvesting. A wash sale is not illegal, or even against the rules. You can "wash sale" all day long if you want. It just disallows claiming the loss. A wash sale should be avoided of course in probably 99.99%, or more, of cases.

Most of the time, it doesn't even disallow claiming the loss.  It just defers the loss to when you sell the shares that you bought which created the wash sale - the so called replacement shares.  The main exception where the loss does end up getting "wasted" is if you bought the replacement shares inside an IRA.

Another thing I might add is that a loss is still a loss...even if it might be beneficial for tax purposes.  And that typically isn't good, especially with brokerage accounts.

I see the tax loss harvesting, wash sale discussion every year and it makes me wonder....just how much have folks really lost?!   My hot take is that there are a lot of gamblers out there...not investors.   I actively trade stocks and see folks gamble far too often...and usually end up paying the price.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 18, 2023, 03:05:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 02:27:01 PM

My hot take on TLH is that it's relatively easy to account for (losses get carried forward each year on your returns, both short term and long term losses), you get an easy 3k offset of income each year, and if you ever sell and realize capital gains, you can save a ton on taxes.  The Mustachian Person Problem is that I haven't sold and realized much capital gains over the years, so I just have this really valuable accounting line item that I'll likely die with.  I stopped TLH years ago for this very reason (once I hit ~$100k).  There is no harm in building up these accounting losses, but I question how valuable they are for Mustachians, unless the plan is to spend the portfolio (which, let's be realistic, nobody in this thread seems to be doing)...  I'll personally get more valuable tax benefits and personal satisfaction out of a number of other tax strategies like a donor-advised fund or trust.

I 100% plan to sell a lot in my taxable brokerage beginning in 2025.  The idea is to spend most of it before I hit 59.5 12 years after FIRE.

ETA:  my $45,000 or so tax loss came from switching between a CA tax advantaged bond fund and a general US tax advantaged bond fund last year and switching my international fund between similar but different funds back in 2018.  I’ve only lost on paper since funds were invested the entire time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 07:11:37 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 18, 2023, 03:05:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 02:27:01 PM

My hot take on TLH is that it's relatively easy to account for (losses get carried forward each year on your returns, both short term and long term losses), you get an easy 3k offset of income each year, and if you ever sell and realize capital gains, you can save a ton on taxes.  The Mustachian Person Problem is that I haven't sold and realized much capital gains over the years, so I just have this really valuable accounting line item that I'll likely die with.  I stopped TLH years ago for this very reason (once I hit ~$100k).  There is no harm in building up these accounting losses, but I question how valuable they are for Mustachians, unless the plan is to spend the portfolio (which, let's be realistic, nobody in this thread seems to be doing)...  I'll personally get more valuable tax benefits and personal satisfaction out of a number of other tax strategies like a donor-advised fund or trust.

I 100% plan to sell a lot in my taxable brokerage beginning in 2025.  The idea is to spend most of it before I hit 59.5 12 years after FIRE.

ETA:  my $45,000 or so tax loss came from switching between a CA tax advantaged bond fund and a general US tax advantaged bond fund last year and switching my international fund between similar but different funds back in 2018.  I’ve only lost on paper since funds were invested the entire time.

It is interesting to hear from people who are making use of this strategy.  Very few people in this thread seem to ever sell their appreciated portfolio, instead living off of multiple other streams of income (dividends, interest, rentals, side hustles...).  Unfortunately you can't use the TLH to fully offset conversions to Roth (taxed as ordinary income) and there are also ACA considerations, so I'm interested to hear success stories!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 18, 2023, 08:39:52 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 07:11:37 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 18, 2023, 03:05:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 02:27:01 PM

My hot take on TLH is that it's relatively easy to account for (losses get carried forward each year on your returns, both short term and long term losses), you get an easy 3k offset of income each year, and if you ever sell and realize capital gains, you can save a ton on taxes.  The Mustachian Person Problem is that I haven't sold and realized much capital gains over the years, so I just have this really valuable accounting line item that I'll likely die with.  I stopped TLH years ago for this very reason (once I hit ~$100k).  There is no harm in building up these accounting losses, but I question how valuable they are for Mustachians, unless the plan is to spend the portfolio (which, let's be realistic, nobody in this thread seems to be doing)...  I'll personally get more valuable tax benefits and personal satisfaction out of a number of other tax strategies like a donor-advised fund or trust.

I 100% plan to sell a lot in my taxable brokerage beginning in 2025.  The idea is to spend most of it before I hit 59.5 12 years after FIRE.

ETA:  my $45,000 or so tax loss came from switching between a CA tax advantaged bond fund and a general US tax advantaged bond fund last year and switching my international fund between similar but different funds back in 2018.  I’ve only lost on paper since funds were invested the entire time.

It is interesting to hear from people who are making use of this strategy.  Very few people in this thread seem to ever sell their appreciated portfolio, instead living off of multiple other streams of income (dividends, interest, rentals, side hustles...).  Unfortunately you can't use the TLH to fully offset conversions to Roth (taxed as ordinary income) and there are also ACA considerations, so I'm interested to hear success stories!

Well I have no ACA considerations (I get to keep FEHB) and I will have a pension so I’m not sure what if any conversions I will make to Roth since I will never be in a low tax bracket.  (I do have some Roth money from my yearly IRA funding).

I do make 100% of my fixed cost decisions on if I can sustain them with just my pension.  My taxable and retirement accounts are all for “lifestyle inflation.”

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 18, 2023, 08:52:18 PM

re Tax lost harvesting:

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 07:11:37 PM

It is interesting to hear from people who are making use of this strategy.  Very few people in this thread seem to ever sell their appreciated portfolio, instead living off of multiple other streams of income (dividends, interest, rentals, side hustles...).  Unfortunately you can't use the TLH to fully offset conversions to Roth (taxed as ordinary income) and there are also ACA considerations, so I'm interested to hear success stories!

Most of our stock and bond holdings are in 401Ks, so tax loss harvesting doesn't make any sense for those. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)

We have some in taxable accounts, but we don't need to spend that money and don't ever expect to need to at this point.   The overwhelmingly likely course of events is that they'll be inherited by our children and their taxable basis will be reset to their value at inheritance.

Not sure how many others are in the same boat, but I expect quite a few are.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 18, 2023, 09:21:58 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 18, 2023, 08:52:18 PM

re Tax lost harvesting:

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 07:11:37 PM

It is interesting to hear from people who are making use of this strategy.  Very few people in this thread seem to ever sell their appreciated portfolio, instead living off of multiple other streams of income (dividends, interest, rentals, side hustles...).  Unfortunately you can't use the TLH to fully offset conversions to Roth (taxed as ordinary income) and there are also ACA considerations, so I'm interested to hear success stories!

Most of our stock and bond holdings are in 401Ks, so tax loss harvesting doesn't make any sense for those. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)

We have some in taxable accounts, but we don't need to spend that money and don't ever expect to need to at this point.   The overwhelmingly likely course of events is that they'll be inherited by our children and their taxable basis will be reset to their value at inheritance.

Not sure how many others are in the same boat, but I expect quite a few are.

Yup.. We got too much money and too much income, together with $1900/month in ACA subsidies for the next 2.5 years.. RMD's are going to be murder if I live that long! We don't even have any kids to give it to, just Nieces and Nephews, some more deserving that others.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on December 19, 2023, 05:27:24 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 07:11:37 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 18, 2023, 03:05:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 02:27:01 PM

My hot take on TLH is that it's relatively easy to account for (losses get carried forward each year on your returns, both short term and long term losses), you get an easy 3k offset of income each year, and if you ever sell and realize capital gains, you can save a ton on taxes.  The Mustachian Person Problem is that I haven't sold and realized much capital gains over the years, so I just have this really valuable accounting line item that I'll likely die with.  I stopped TLH years ago for this very reason (once I hit ~$100k).  There is no harm in building up these accounting losses, but I question how valuable they are for Mustachians, unless the plan is to spend the portfolio (which, let's be realistic, nobody in this thread seems to be doing)...  I'll personally get more valuable tax benefits and personal satisfaction out of a number of other tax strategies like a donor-advised fund or trust.

I 100% plan to sell a lot in my taxable brokerage beginning in 2025.  The idea is to spend most of it before I hit 59.5 12 years after FIRE.

ETA:  my $45,000 or so tax loss came from switching between a CA tax advantaged bond fund and a general US tax advantaged bond fund last year and switching my international fund between similar but different funds back in 2018.  I’ve only lost on paper since funds were invested the entire time.

It is interesting to hear from people who are making use of this strategy.  Very few people in this thread seem to ever sell their appreciated portfolio, instead living off of multiple other streams of income (dividends, interest, rentals, side hustles...).  Unfortunately you can't use the TLH to fully offset conversions to Roth (taxed as ordinary income) and there are also ACA considerations, so I'm interested to hear success stories!

Our taxable account (primarily VTSAX, but a couple legacy holdings with large gains) is going to be a primary source of funds for a number of years. The expected dividends will cover maybe 25% of our budget. We will use taxable sells to cover expenses that will also include Roth conversion taxes.

Depending on about 50 things, of which I understand maybe 4, we might use the taxable account for up to a decade, or even more, before getting into our tax advantaged accounts. It really depends on how the Roth conversion journey progresses.

I have put a lot of emphasis in building a taxable account balance over the years to provide flexibility. We are very fortunate that our incomes are high enough that tax advantaged have been maxed for some years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 19, 2023, 07:22:20 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on December 19, 2023, 05:27:24 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 07:11:37 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 18, 2023, 03:05:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 02:27:01 PM

My hot take on TLH is that it's relatively easy to account for (losses get carried forward each year on your returns, both short term and long term losses), you get an easy 3k offset of income each year, and if you ever sell and realize capital gains, you can save a ton on taxes.  The Mustachian Person Problem is that I haven't sold and realized much capital gains over the years, so I just have this really valuable accounting line item that I'll likely die with.  I stopped TLH years ago for this very reason (once I hit ~$100k).  There is no harm in building up these accounting losses, but I question how valuable they are for Mustachians, unless the plan is to spend the portfolio (which, let's be realistic, nobody in this thread seems to be doing)...  I'll personally get more valuable tax benefits and personal satisfaction out of a number of other tax strategies like a donor-advised fund or trust.

I 100% plan to sell a lot in my taxable brokerage beginning in 2025.  The idea is to spend most of it before I hit 59.5 12 years after FIRE.

ETA:  my $45,000 or so tax loss came from switching between a CA tax advantaged bond fund and a general US tax advantaged bond fund last year and switching my international fund between similar but different funds back in 2018.  I’ve only lost on paper since funds were invested the entire time.

It is interesting to hear from people who are making use of this strategy.  Very few people in this thread seem to ever sell their appreciated portfolio, instead living off of multiple other streams of income (dividends, interest, rentals, side hustles...).  Unfortunately you can't use the TLH to fully offset conversions to Roth (taxed as ordinary income) and there are also ACA considerations, so I'm interested to hear success stories!

Our taxable account (primarily VTSAX, but a couple legacy holdings with large gains) is going to be a primary source of funds for a number of years. The expected dividends will cover maybe 25% of our budget. We will use taxable sells to cover expenses that will also include Roth conversion taxes.

Depending on about 50 things, of which I understand maybe 4, we might use the taxable account for up to a decade, or even more, before getting into our tax advantaged accounts. It really depends on how the Roth conversion journey progresses.

I have put a lot of emphasis in building a taxable account balance over the years to provide flexibility. We are very fortunate that our incomes are high enough that tax advantaged have been maxed for some years.

I have about 60% of my investments are in taxable account (early career I only had access to IRAs which of course dont allow much to be saved and later in career when had a solo 401k had a few huge years).  I have a general plan to spend that till I start collecting SS around 67 or so and then use the retirement accounts after that, though I'm sure in practice it'll be much more complicated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Louise on December 19, 2023, 07:31:52 AM

Over the last 20 years or so, we have funded and drained our taxable accounts to pay for home repairs, replacement vehicles, tuition, etc. This year my spouse got a pretty big promotion. For the first time in about 14 years we will be making over six figures. Unfortunately, this is the kind of move that will keep him working OMY and beyond probably. We may add a little extra to our 529 plan. The irony is this promotion now disqualifies us for free college tuition. Ha.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 19, 2023, 07:38:09 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on December 19, 2023, 05:27:24 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 07:11:37 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 18, 2023, 03:05:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 02:27:01 PM

My hot take on TLH is that it's relatively easy to account for (losses get carried forward each year on your returns, both short term and long term losses), you get an easy 3k offset of income each year, and if you ever sell and realize capital gains, you can save a ton on taxes.  The Mustachian Person Problem is that I haven't sold and realized much capital gains over the years, so I just have this really valuable accounting line item that I'll likely die with.  I stopped TLH years ago for this very reason (once I hit ~$100k).  There is no harm in building up these accounting losses, but I question how valuable they are for Mustachians, unless the plan is to spend the portfolio (which, let's be realistic, nobody in this thread seems to be doing)...  I'll personally get more valuable tax benefits and personal satisfaction out of a number of other tax strategies like a donor-advised fund or trust.

I 100% plan to sell a lot in my taxable brokerage beginning in 2025.  The idea is to spend most of it before I hit 59.5 12 years after FIRE.

ETA:  my $45,000 or so tax loss came from switching between a CA tax advantaged bond fund and a general US tax advantaged bond fund last year and switching my international fund between similar but different funds back in 2018.  I’ve only lost on paper since funds were invested the entire time.

It is interesting to hear from people who are making use of this strategy.  Very few people in this thread seem to ever sell their appreciated portfolio, instead living off of multiple other streams of income (dividends, interest, rentals, side hustles...).  Unfortunately you can't use the TLH to fully offset conversions to Roth (taxed as ordinary income) and there are also ACA considerations, so I'm interested to hear success stories!

Our taxable account (primarily VTSAX, but a couple legacy holdings with large gains) is going to be a primary source of funds for a number of years. The expected dividends will cover maybe 25% of our budget. We will use taxable sells to cover expenses that will also include Roth conversion taxes.

Depending on about 50 things, of which I understand maybe 4, we might use the taxable account for up to a decade, or even more, before getting into our tax advantaged accounts. It really depends on how the Roth conversion journey progresses.

I have put a lot of emphasis in building a taxable account balance over the years to provide flexibility. We are very fortunate that our incomes are high enough that tax advantaged have been maxed for some years.

Us as well...the "basket" approach.  "Cash" accounts are key for engineering income for ACA subsidies, etc...  We have a sizeable cash account that is paying at a nice interest rate right now, and a sizeable taxable brokerage account.  The brokerage account will be partially converted to "cash" around a year before we retire.
 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on December 19, 2023, 12:15:02 PM

We're still hanging out in this thread in the middle at basically a standstill for the next year or two.  We are cash flowing college of about $125K per year for two kids.  $3,000,000 X .04=$120,000.  All our extra $ is going to them and taxes! It's $ I feel good about investing in them.  I didn't like not working, but I also don't like working.  Go figure.  I'd rather be traveling and hanging out with friends than being a SAHM, but we need to simplify our lives a bunch before retirement. I "think" in 2 years we will be done.  That coincides with 55 and access to 401(k) money without penalties for me. 

I booked a family cruise next Christmas for $3,000 for 5 of us for 4 nights including tips and beverages.  I think I might actually save money by not hosting Christmas and making the cruise their Christmas present.  (I will have less people here to cook for, buy presents for, and not being home means I won't need to buy Christmas decorations.) DH and I have Hyatt hotel points we'll use to do a few other nights of hotels with club access so we will only need to come up with lunch $.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 19, 2023, 12:54:47 PM

Quote from: couponvan on December 19, 2023, 12:15:02 PM

We're still hanging out in this thread in the middle at basically a standstill for the next year or two.  We are cash flowing college of about $125K per year for two kids.  $3,000,000 X .04=$120,000.  All our extra $ is going to them and taxes! It's $ I feel good about investing in them.  I didn't like not working, but I also don't like working.  Go figure.  I'd rather be traveling and hanging out with friends than being a SAHM, but we need to simplify our lives a bunch before retirement. I "think" in 2 years we will be done.  That coincides with 55 and access to 401(k) money without penalties for me. 

I booked a family cruise next Christmas for $3,000 for 5 of us for 4 nights including tips and beverages.  I think I might actually save money by not hosting Christmas and making the cruise their Christmas present.  (I will have less people here to cook for, buy presents for, and not being home means I won't need to buy Christmas decorations.) DH and I have Hyatt hotel points we'll use to do a few other nights of hotels with club access so we will only need to come up with lunch $.

Hang in there with the college!  You are giving your kids an incredible gift compared to their peers ( i.e. - no student debt ).   That college bill though...ouch!  We were fortunate enough to save a substantial amount into 529 plans...but it never seems to be enough!

Both of our kids are graduating college this coming spring...yippee!  One from undergrad and one with a masters degree.  Big year!  We are hoping the undergrad will land a grad school gig that is fully paid + stipend.  He is in physics/astrophysics and has done very well..so we think he has a great chance.  The masters degree kid is working to become a therapist and should be able to land a decent job...as there is demand for it. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 19, 2023, 01:24:23 PM

We are finishing one college tuition after spring and starting our second, and final.  Fortunately the 529's are meeting the needs...  so it's like we are getting college for 50% off the sticker price!

Enjoying watching this next batch of FIRE (Millennial-Revolution, MadFIentist, GCC?) going through the parenting experience...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: TempusFugit on December 19, 2023, 01:55:23 PM

Quote from: arcturus on December 17, 2023, 06:58:50 PM

Welcome @TempusFugit  -- your situation has some similarities to mine and we're possibly on a similar timeline, although I'm currently battling OMY syndrome in my planning/analysis.    A spending of $85K is fantastic, but don't forget to keep in mind that, as a software engineer for a fortune 500 company for 25+ years, you will get social security as well!  Agree with @pecunia as well that, the bigger challenge may be -- retiring to what?   Which is where I've been doing some introspection over the past few months.   

Anyways, welcome and I look forward to sharing our experiences on this journey!

Thanks for the welcome @arcturus  Yeah, I’m using a 25% reduced SS benefit in my retirement planning tool just to be conservative. I’m guessing that congress will fund the gap when it hits in a few years, but as of now, the benefits will be cut absent new law.    I also have a small private pension that kicks in at 60 which will reduce my WR by about 1%.  It doesn’t have a cola, but it’s still nice to have. 

Indeed the challenge of what comes next is a huge factor in sticking around.  I’m currently single, so I don’t have big plans to travel the world or anything.  I’ve been lots of places and I love having had those experiences but I’m now more of a 3-4 day trip kind of person.   I’m putting in some spending for the first few years to cover one or two fairly expensive travel experiences but I really don’t have anything in particular in mind. 

I’ve been expanding my social network a bit over the past couple of years which is nice.  I’m not a huge extrovert but I do need a few days of socialization every week.  One advantage of retiring not-so-early is that lots of my friends are either retired already or are in the ramp down phase.  I think it would be more of a shock to retire much earlier when all of one’s contemporaries are mid-career and mid-child rearing. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on December 19, 2023, 04:04:00 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 19, 2023, 12:54:47 PM

Quote from: couponvan on December 19, 2023, 12:15:02 PM

We're still hanging out in this thread in the middle at basically a standstill for the next year or two.  We are cash flowing college of about $125K per year for two kids.  $3,000,000 X .04=$120,000.  All our extra $ is going to them and taxes! It's $ I feel good about investing in them.  I didn't like not working, but I also don't like working.  Go figure.  I'd rather be traveling and hanging out with friends than being a SAHM, but we need to simplify our lives a bunch before retirement. I "think" in 2 years we will be done.  That coincides with 55 and access to 401(k) money without penalties for me. 

I booked a family cruise next Christmas for $3,000 for 5 of us for 4 nights including tips and beverages.  I think I might actually save money by not hosting Christmas and making the cruise their Christmas present.  (I will have less people here to cook for, buy presents for, and not being home means I won't need to buy Christmas decorations.) DH and I have Hyatt hotel points we'll use to do a few other nights of hotels with club access so we will only need to come up with lunch $.

Hang in there with the college!  You are giving your kids an incredible gift compared to their peers ( i.e. - no student debt ).   That college bill though...ouch!  We were fortunate enough to save a substantial amount into 529 plans...but it never seems to be enough!

Both of our kids are graduating college this coming spring...yippee!  One from undergrad and one with a masters degree.  Big year!  We are hoping the undergrad will land a grad school gig that is fully paid + stipend.  He is in physics/astrophysics and has done very well..so we think he has a great chance.  The masters degree kid is working to become a therapist and should be able to land a decent job...as there is demand for it.

Skipping Christmas for a cruise can definitely save you money.....just don't do what they did in "Christmas with the Kranks"


My first of three is expected to start college next year, then the 2nd the following year and the 3rd 2 years after that.   It's just crazy math and not sure we have set enough aside but it's a large amount and much more than most.  Part of the reason I went back to work last year was to pad those accounts, which we have done.   It's my biggest money thing I think about, once the kids are off rhe payroll I am confident we have enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: TempusFugit on December 19, 2023, 04:42:40 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 18, 2023, 10:46:20 AM

Welcome @TempusFugit from me as well! 

Thought I'd chime in because my situation is similar, but we are a bit ahead of you.  I'm also a "tech guy" working for a megacorp...for 31 years now.  I'm pretty much burned out, don't have the will to "keep up" anymore like I used to, and am battling MASSIVE motivation issues.  The company may likely say "bye-bye" before I do.  However, I am targeting early 2025...when I will also turn 55 years old, because there are a few additional benefits at my megacorp when you reach that age.

Luckily, since we are almost at "and beyond" territory in terms of savings, I could very well pull the trigger whenever I want to.   The brokerage (stock trading) account has done MUCH better than anticipated this year due to some "lucky" trades...and is the reason the "and beyond" goal is sight.   And I agree with @arcturus...don't forget about Social Security...it ends up to be a substantial amount of cash, especially for those who have had long careers in highly compensated fields.

One thing I've discovered is that pulling the trigger on early retirement is harder than I thought it would be.   OMY syndrome is a very real thing...but I'm getting to the point when cutting the cord with the corporate world will happen sooner rather than later.

One more thing...I heartily recommend https://ficalc.app/ for retirement planning....perhaps the best free tool I have found.  It allows you to play around with many things, including many different withdrawal strategies, etc...

Thanks for the welcome and the tool reference, @farmecologist

My motivation has also suffered the past couple of years.  Now that I am so close to having no more financial excuses to delay a change, it’s harder to care about projects that are going to take a couple of years.  There are lots of changes at my company that will affect lots of people - in a couple of years.  Heck, they may throw me out earlier than I expect to leave as part of all the cost cutting. 

I don’t think I’ll ever make it to the “…and beyond” territory, at least not until inflation makes it a much less impressive level! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 19, 2023, 06:00:03 PM

Quote from: TempusFugit on December 19, 2023, 01:55:23 PM

...
I’ve been expanding my social network a bit over the past couple of years which is nice.  I’m not a huge extrovert but I do need a few days of socialization every week.  One advantage of retiring not-so-early is that lots of my friends are either retired already or are in the ramp down phase.  I think it would be more of a shock to retire much earlier when all of one’s contemporaries are mid-career and mid-child rearing.

I've always admired FIRE's in their 30's being willing to forge the path, I don't necessarily think it's the easiest and most preferential route to go even when you can...  maybe after a generation it will be more straightforward...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Midwest_Handlebar on December 19, 2023, 07:10:43 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 19, 2023, 06:00:03 PM

Quote from: TempusFugit on December 19, 2023, 01:55:23 PM

...
I’ve been expanding my social network a bit over the past couple of years which is nice.  I’m not a huge extrovert but I do need a few days of socialization every week.  One advantage of retiring not-so-early is that lots of my friends are either retired already or are in the ramp down phase.  I think it would be more of a shock to retire much earlier when all of one’s contemporaries are mid-career and mid-child rearing.

I've always admired FIRE's in their 30's being willing to forge the path, I don't necessarily think it's the easiest and most preferential route to go even when you can...  maybe after a generation it will be more straightforward...

I retired @ 39 and am a pretty solid introvert. Actually one of my main motivators was not having to socialize with most of my coworkers. I was in corporate finance/accounting the whole time and had 2-3 years that I liked the majority of my coworkers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 20, 2023, 04:24:04 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on December 18, 2023, 12:46:31 PM

We’re also flirting with “Beyond” territory, though I’m 60 and DWis a few years younger. I was really losing motivation and becoming super cynical, anxious and depressed at mini-megacorp where I had been for a long time. I had intentions to FIRE, but kids are expensive(!) and hedonic adaptation has see in. I changed jobs and it relieved most of the cynicism and anxiety and almost all the depression.

I’m having fun enough with the work to keep doing it. It’s amazing at this stage how much the stach grows every year with the combination of contributions and even modest gains. I don’t know if I’ll go all the way to 55 like the recent posters, but I’m pretty sure I won’t go beyond that.

As we start the new year, we’re going to update our estate planning and arrange a session with a financial planner (fee only) to get some different perspectives on what’s next. With our “safe” withdrawal rate in the six figures now, and social security out there eventually (maybe?), it would be worth considering our options. Meanwhile it’s kids’ sports all the time, and that’s fun and active and social and community-building.

I made it to age 57 at mega corp before I got burnt out and quit. I moved to a startup which was way more fun but even that helped for only about a year. I finally quit at age 58. Now, I can't handle the thought of paid work in any form.

Morgan Housel said recently in his podcast that one of the key rules of investing is to let money do its compounding magic as long as  possible. The main advantage you get from saving now is that you are allowing the money you invested twenty years ago more time to grow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on December 20, 2023, 05:17:09 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on December 18, 2023, 12:46:31 PM

We’re also flirting with “Beyond” territory, though I’m 60 and DWis a few years younger. I was really losing motivation and becoming super cynical, anxious and depressed at mini-megacorp where I had been for a long time. I had intentions to FIRE, but kids are expensive(!) and hedonic adaptation has see in. I changed jobs and it relieved most of the cynicism and anxiety and almost all the depression.

I’m having fun enough with the work to keep doing it. It’s amazing at this stage how much the stach grows every year with the combination of contributions and even modest gains. I don’t know if I’ll go all the way to 55 like the recent posters, but I’m pretty sure I won’t go beyond that.

As we start the new year, we’re going to update our estate planning and arrange a session with a financial planner (fee only) to get some different perspectives on what’s next. With our “safe” withdrawal rate in the six figures now, and social security out there eventually (maybe?), it would be worth considering our options. Meanwhile it’s kids’ sports all the time, and that’s fun and active and social and community-building.

Benjamin Button, is that you?

;-)

Welcome to the thread, Taran Ben!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on December 20, 2023, 05:47:45 PM

Oops! Fifty, not sixty! And I’ve been here a while. Just kinda introverted.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on December 21, 2023, 08:54:50 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on December 20, 2023, 05:47:45 PM

Oops! Fifty, not sixty! And I’ve been here a while. Just kinda introverted.

I had guessed that might be it.  Typos are so easy to make.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on December 21, 2023, 09:47:05 AM

Quote from: Turtle on December 21, 2023, 08:54:50 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on December 20, 2023, 05:47:45 PM

Oops! Fifty, not sixty! And I’ve been here a while. Just kinda introverted.

I had guessed that might be it.  Typos are so easy to make.

Especially with “old” eyes on a small screen!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on December 21, 2023, 03:21:43 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on December 20, 2023, 05:47:45 PM

Oops! Fifty, not sixty! And I’ve been here a while. Just kinda introverted.

Sorry for my reciprocal confusion - I lost the thread so to speak, confusing TempusFugit's introductory post with yours.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on December 21, 2023, 05:00:38 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 07:11:37 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 18, 2023, 03:05:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 02:27:01 PM

My hot take on TLH is that it's relatively easy to account for (losses get carried forward each year on your returns, both short term and long term losses), you get an easy 3k offset of income each year, and if you ever sell and realize capital gains, you can save a ton on taxes.  The Mustachian Person Problem is that I haven't sold and realized much capital gains over the years, so I just have this really valuable accounting line item that I'll likely die with.  I stopped TLH years ago for this very reason (once I hit ~$100k).  There is no harm in building up these accounting losses, but I question how valuable they are for Mustachians, unless the plan is to spend the portfolio (which, let's be realistic, nobody in this thread seems to be doing)...  I'll personally get more valuable tax benefits and personal satisfaction out of a number of other tax strategies like a donor-advised fund or trust.

I 100% plan to sell a lot in my taxable brokerage beginning in 2025.  The idea is to spend most of it before I hit 59.5 12 years after FIRE.

ETA:  my $45,000 or so tax loss came from switching between a CA tax advantaged bond fund and a general US tax advantaged bond fund last year and switching my international fund between similar but different funds back in 2018.  I’ve only lost on paper since funds were invested the entire time.

It is interesting to hear from people who are making use of this strategy.  Very few people in this thread seem to ever sell their appreciated portfolio, instead living off of multiple other streams of income (dividends, interest, rentals, side hustles...).  Unfortunately you can't use the TLH to fully offset conversions to Roth (taxed as ordinary income) and there are also ACA considerations, so I'm interested to hear success stories!

I guess I'm too late to TLH.  I've been buying over the past 20 years...so the gains far outweigh the losses.  Am I missing something or did I just learn about TLH too late for it to help me? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 21, 2023, 11:08:26 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 20, 2023, 04:24:04 AM

Morgan Housel said recently in his podcast that one of the key rules of investing is to let money do its compounding magic as long as  possible. The main advantage you get from saving now is that you are allowing the money you invested twenty years ago more time to grow.

IMO, this is the most compelling reason not to prepay your affordable, low-interest, fixed-rate, tax deductible mortgage. I'm not against paying off one's mortgage, but doing that first and saving for retirement later means you lose out on a shitload of compounding magic. You actually have to earn and save more hard-earned dollars if you put the mortgage cart before the compound interest horse.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on December 22, 2023, 06:55:38 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 21, 2023, 11:08:26 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 20, 2023, 04:24:04 AM

Morgan Housel said recently in his podcast that one of the key rules of investing is to let money do its compounding magic as long as  possible. The main advantage you get from saving now is that you are allowing the money you invested twenty years ago more time to grow.

IMO, this is the most compelling reason not to prepay your affordable, low-interest, fixed-rate, tax deductible mortgage. I'm not against paying off one's mortgage, but doing that first and saving for retirement later means you lose out on a shitload of compounding magic. You actually have to earn and save more hard-earned dollars if you put the mortgage cart before the compound interest horse.

While I am in general not an advocate for paying off your mortgage, it's certainly a form of investing - your home equity (and NW) grows with each prepayment.  It compounds as well, in that the interest charged on your balance reduces. In fact it's a form of risk-free investing, like buying a CD or a T-bill.

However, just like those other risk-free investments, it's not always the best strategy...

- If your expected return from a riskier investment is high enough then it's worth taking the risk in, say, stocks, instead of prepaying

- If you can't tie up your money safely but might need access to it (e.g. if you don't have a big enough emergency fund)

- If prevailing interest rates rise, then having the mortgage balance higher is better - you may be able to find other risk free investments paying more than your mortgage interest rate.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on December 22, 2023, 07:48:31 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on December 21, 2023, 05:00:38 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 07:11:37 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 18, 2023, 03:05:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 02:27:01 PM

My hot take on TLH is that it's relatively easy to account for (losses get carried forward each year on your returns, both short term and long term losses), you get an easy 3k offset of income each year, and if you ever sell and realize capital gains, you can save a ton on taxes.  The Mustachian Person Problem is that I haven't sold and realized much capital gains over the years, so I just have this really valuable accounting line item that I'll likely die with.  I stopped TLH years ago for this very reason (once I hit ~$100k).  There is no harm in building up these accounting losses, but I question how valuable they are for Mustachians, unless the plan is to spend the portfolio (which, let's be realistic, nobody in this thread seems to be doing)...  I'll personally get more valuable tax benefits and personal satisfaction out of a number of other tax strategies like a donor-advised fund or trust.

I 100% plan to sell a lot in my taxable brokerage beginning in 2025.  The idea is to spend most of it before I hit 59.5 12 years after FIRE.

ETA:  my $45,000 or so tax loss came from switching between a CA tax advantaged bond fund and a general US tax advantaged bond fund last year and switching my international fund between similar but different funds back in 2018.  I’ve only lost on paper since funds were invested the entire time.

It is interesting to hear from people who are making use of this strategy.  Very few people in this thread seem to ever sell their appreciated portfolio, instead living off of multiple other streams of income (dividends, interest, rentals, side hustles...).  Unfortunately you can't use the TLH to fully offset conversions to Roth (taxed as ordinary income) and there are also ACA considerations, so I'm interested to hear success stories!

I guess I'm too late to TLH.  I've been buying over the past 20 years...so the gains far outweigh the losses.  Am I missing something or did I just learn about TLH too late for it to help me?

If your income is low enough (capital gains taxed at 0%), then you can capital gains harvest.  It essentially raises your basis cost, lowering future capital gains and therefor taxes on those gains.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax_gain_harvesting#:~:text=Tax%20gain%20harvesting%2C%20as%20opposed,specific%20time%20for%20tax%20purposes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: oldmannickels on December 22, 2023, 08:55:16 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on December 21, 2023, 05:00:38 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 07:11:37 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 18, 2023, 03:05:14 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on December 18, 2023, 02:27:01 PM

My hot take on TLH is that it's relatively easy to account for (losses get carried forward each year on your returns, both short term and long term losses), you get an easy 3k offset of income each year, and if you ever sell and realize capital gains, you can save a ton on taxes.  The Mustachian Person Problem is that I haven't sold and realized much capital gains over the years, so I just have this really valuable accounting line item that I'll likely die with.  I stopped TLH years ago for this very reason (once I hit ~$100k).  There is no harm in building up these accounting losses, but I question how valuable they are for Mustachians, unless the plan is to spend the portfolio (which, let's be realistic, nobody in this thread seems to be doing)...  I'll personally get more valuable tax benefits and personal satisfaction out of a number of other tax strategies like a donor-advised fund or trust.

I 100% plan to sell a lot in my taxable brokerage beginning in 2025.  The idea is to spend most of it before I hit 59.5 12 years after FIRE.

ETA:  my $45,000 or so tax loss came from switching between a CA tax advantaged bond fund and a general US tax advantaged bond fund last year and switching my international fund between similar but different funds back in 2018.  I’ve only lost on paper since funds were invested the entire time.

It is interesting to hear from people who are making use of this strategy.  Very few people in this thread seem to ever sell their appreciated portfolio, instead living off of multiple other streams of income (dividends, interest, rentals, side hustles...).  Unfortunately you can't use the TLH to fully offset conversions to Roth (taxed as ordinary income) and there are also ACA considerations, so I'm interested to hear success stories!

I guess I'm too late to TLH.  I've been buying over the past 20 years...so the gains far outweigh the losses.  Am I missing something or did I just learn about TLH too late for it to help me?

you can sell specific lots of shares that are in a loss position. Let's say you own 5,000 shares, 4,900 are in a gain position and 100 are in a loss position. You could try to isolate the 100 shares in a specific lot to generate a loss.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on December 22, 2023, 09:02:20 AM

Quote from: oldmannickels on December 22, 2023, 08:55:16 AM

you can sell specific lots of shares that are in a loss position. Let's say you own 5,000 shares, 4,900 are in a gain position and 100 are in a loss position. You could try to isolate the 100 shares in a specific lot to generate a loss.

Indeed you can.

Be sure to set your cost basis method to "specific ID" before actually selling the shares.  Most brokerages I've seen do not use this method by default.  Not switching before the sale can result in a tax situation that you don't expect and is probably less optimal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 22, 2023, 10:38:17 AM

Quote from: jeroly on December 22, 2023, 06:55:38 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 21, 2023, 11:08:26 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 20, 2023, 04:24:04 AM

Morgan Housel said recently in his podcast that one of the key rules of investing is to let money do its compounding magic as long as  possible. The main advantage you get from saving now is that you are allowing the money you invested twenty years ago more time to grow.

IMO, this is the most compelling reason not to prepay your affordable, low-interest, fixed-rate, tax deductible mortgage. I'm not against paying off one's mortgage, but doing that first and saving for retirement later means you lose out on a shitload of compounding magic. You actually have to earn and save more hard-earned dollars if you put the mortgage cart before the compound interest horse.

While I am in general not an advocate for paying off your mortgage, it's certainly a form of investing - your home equity (and NW) grows with each prepayment.  It compounds as well, in that the interest charged on your balance reduces. In fact it's a form of risk-free investing, like buying a CD or a T-bill.

However, just like those other risk-free investments, it's not always the best strategy...

- If your expected return from a riskier investment is high enough then it's worth taking the risk in, say, stocks, instead of prepaying

- If you can't tie up your money safely but might need access to it (e.g. if you don't have a big enough emergency fund)

- If prevailing interest rates rise, then having the mortgage balance higher is better - you may be able to find other risk free investments paying more than your mortgage interest rate.

I do not disagree. I have recently been told by a mod to tone it down (in much harsher words) so I was treading very carefully. IRL, I'm a die hard fan of the DPOYM Club.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 22, 2023, 12:29:29 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 22, 2023, 10:38:17 AM

Quote from: jeroly on December 22, 2023, 06:55:38 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 21, 2023, 11:08:26 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 20, 2023, 04:24:04 AM

Morgan Housel said recently in his podcast that one of the key rules of investing is to let money do its compounding magic as long as  possible. The main advantage you get from saving now is that you are allowing the money you invested twenty years ago more time to grow.

IMO, this is the most compelling reason not to prepay your affordable, low-interest, fixed-rate, tax deductible mortgage. I'm not against paying off one's mortgage, but doing that first and saving for retirement later means you lose out on a shitload of compounding magic. You actually have to earn and save more hard-earned dollars if you put the mortgage cart before the compound interest horse.

While I am in general not an advocate for paying off your mortgage, it's certainly a form of investing - your home equity (and NW) grows with each prepayment.  It compounds as well, in that the interest charged on your balance reduces. In fact it's a form of risk-free investing, like buying a CD or a T-bill.

However, just like those other risk-free investments, it's not always the best strategy...

- If your expected return from a riskier investment is high enough then it's worth taking the risk in, say, stocks, instead of prepaying

- If you can't tie up your money safely but might need access to it (e.g. if you don't have a big enough emergency fund)

- If prevailing interest rates rise, then having the mortgage balance higher is better - you may be able to find other risk free investments paying more than your mortgage interest rate.

I do not disagree. I have recently been told by a mod to tone it down (in much harsher words) so I was treading very carefully. IRL, I'm a die hard fan of the DPOYM Club.

I'm not.  Paying off the mortgage was one of the best best things we ever did.  BUT...we used a stock option windfall to pay it off.  Everyone and their mother was telling us to "invest" the proceeds instead.   But guess what?  If we would have invest it, it would have been in the months leading up to the 2008-2009 financial crisis...and we all know how that turned out.  So we "lucked out".  And in hindsight, paying it off was one our better financial decisions, and it is just nice to have it paid off.   We like simplicity in our finances, and having debt hanging around isn't in our wheelhouse.

Point is, timing can be everything...and nothing, and often comes down to "luck". 

However, to each their own...we all have different thoughts, plans, and situations!  One stance certainly doesn't fit all.
 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 22, 2023, 12:34:47 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on December 22, 2023, 09:02:20 AM

Quote from: oldmannickels on December 22, 2023, 08:55:16 AM

you can sell specific lots of shares that are in a loss position. Let's say you own 5,000 shares, 4,900 are in a gain position and 100 are in a loss position. You could try to isolate the 100 shares in a specific lot to generate a loss.

Indeed you can.

Be sure to set your cost basis method to "specific ID" before actually selling the shares.  Most brokerages I've seen do not use this method by default.  Not switching before the sale can result in a tax situation that you don't expect and is probably less optimal.

Also, all of the brokerages I have been associated with allow you to modify the tax lot method even after the sale...so all is not necessarily lost if a mistake is made.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 22, 2023, 03:13:44 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 22, 2023, 12:29:29 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 22, 2023, 10:38:17 AM

Quote from: jeroly on December 22, 2023, 06:55:38 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 21, 2023, 11:08:26 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 20, 2023, 04:24:04 AM

Morgan Housel said recently in his podcast that one of the key rules of investing is to let money do its compounding magic as long as  possible. The main advantage you get from saving now is that you are allowing the money you invested twenty years ago more time to grow.

IMO, this is the most compelling reason not to prepay your affordable, low-interest, fixed-rate, tax deductible mortgage. I'm not against paying off one's mortgage, but doing that first and saving for retirement later means you lose out on a shitload of compounding magic. You actually have to earn and save more hard-earned dollars if you put the mortgage cart before the compound interest horse.

While I am in general not an advocate for paying off your mortgage, it's certainly a form of investing - your home equity (and NW) grows with each prepayment.  It compounds as well, in that the interest charged on your balance reduces. In fact it's a form of risk-free investing, like buying a CD or a T-bill.

However, just like those other risk-free investments, it's not always the best strategy...

- If your expected return from a riskier investment is high enough then it's worth taking the risk in, say, stocks, instead of prepaying

- If you can't tie up your money safely but might need access to it (e.g. if you don't have a big enough emergency fund)

- If prevailing interest rates rise, then having the mortgage balance higher is better - you may be able to find other risk free investments paying more than your mortgage interest rate.

I do not disagree. I have recently been told by a mod to tone it down (in much harsher words) so I was treading very carefully. IRL, I'm a die hard fan of the DPOYM Club.

I'm not.  Paying off the mortgage was one of the best best things we ever did.  BUT...we used a stock option windfall to pay it off.  Everyone and their mother was telling us to "invest" the proceeds instead.   But guess what?  If we would have invest it, it would have been in the months leading up to the 2008-2009 financial crisis...and we all know how that turned out.  So we "lucked out".  And in hindsight, paying it off was one our better financial decisions, and it is just nice to have it paid off.   We like simplicity in our finances, and having debt hanging around isn't in our wheelhouse.

Point is, timing can be everything...and nothing, and often comes down to "luck". 

However, to each their own...we all have different thoughts, plans, and situations!  One stance certainly doesn't fit all.

Had you invested along mustachian guidelines in things such as ETFs, your funds would have come roaring back, and then some. OTOH, using a windfall to pay off a mortgage, assuming your retirement savings are on track, isn't the worst option, particularly as mortage rates were in the low-to-mid-sixes during that time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 22, 2023, 03:49:47 PM

May I please point out that I consider the mortgage/no mortgage debate rather moot for this group?

If you've managed to get here with $2M+ in liquid assets, it doesn't really matter. You're going to be fine.

Hitting $2M is much more impressive than killing a mortgage in all but the very highest of COLAs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 22, 2023, 05:47:07 PM

My favorite boss in the office is retiring in a month from our federal jobs.  He was offered a “retirement job” at a major US bank for essentially 2x his current salary.  It’s “an offer he couldn’t refuse.”  It has me reflecting on what I would do if I was offered something similar, and one more year in general even at my current pay. 

At the end of the day, while I’m sure I could find a use for the extra money, a slightly nicer house, spending a bit more on my normal purchases maybe pulling the trigger on a hotel that costs $1000 a night just because, I really don’t see how it would change my overall enjoyment of life.  It’s amazing what understanding the concept of enough will do for one’s finances. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 24, 2023, 08:49:12 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 22, 2023, 12:29:29 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 22, 2023, 10:38:17 AM

Quote from: jeroly on December 22, 2023, 06:55:38 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 21, 2023, 11:08:26 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 20, 2023, 04:24:04 AM

Morgan Housel said recently in his podcast that one of the key rules of investing is to let money do its compounding magic as long as  possible. The main advantage you get from saving now is that you are allowing the money you invested twenty years ago more time to grow.

IMO, this is the most compelling reason not to prepay your affordable, low-interest, fixed-rate, tax deductible mortgage. I'm not against paying off one's mortgage, but doing that first and saving for retirement later means you lose out on a shitload of compounding magic. You actually have to earn and save more hard-earned dollars if you put the mortgage cart before the compound interest horse.

While I am in general not an advocate for paying off your mortgage, it's certainly a form of investing - your home equity (and NW) grows with each prepayment.  It compounds as well, in that the interest charged on your balance reduces. In fact it's a form of risk-free investing, like buying a CD or a T-bill.

However, just like those other risk-free investments, it's not always the best strategy...

- If your expected return from a riskier investment is high enough then it's worth taking the risk in, say, stocks, instead of prepaying

- If you can't tie up your money safely but might need access to it (e.g. if you don't have a big enough emergency fund)

- If prevailing interest rates rise, then having the mortgage balance higher is better - you may be able to find other risk free investments paying more than your mortgage interest rate.

I do not disagree. I have recently been told by a mod to tone it down (in much harsher words) so I was treading very carefully. IRL, I'm a die hard fan of the DPOYM Club.

I'm not.  Paying off the mortgage was one of the best best things we ever did.  BUT...we used a stock option windfall to pay it off.  Everyone and their mother was telling us to "invest" the proceeds instead.   But guess what?  If we would have invest it, it would have been in the months leading up to the 2008-2009 financial crisis...and we all know how that turned out.  So we "lucked out".  And in hindsight, paying it off was one our better financial decisions, and it is just nice to have it paid off.   We like simplicity in our finances, and having debt hanging around isn't in our wheelhouse.

Point is, timing can be everything...and nothing, and often comes down to "luck". 

However, to each their own...we all have different thoughts, plans, and situations!  One stance certainly doesn't fit all.

Ok, I'll wade into these (treacherous) waters.....I think I can get past the mental hurdle of having a mortgage in retirement, because after all, you always owe someone for shelter -- whether its rent, property taxes, utilities, mortgage, etc.  So I can get past the mental concept of having a mortgage.   But here is where I struggle with it: 

My challenge is that the mortgage payment "crowds out" other money from the retirement budget.  For example, if my SWD is 4% and my effective combined tax rate is 17%, my mortgage rate would need to be incredibly low not to crowd more money out of the monthly budget than the amount of spend enabled by having the extra invested assets that the mortgage enables.   I've done some simplistic math to look at this, and believe I'm thinking about this problem correctly, but would ask others to chime in if I'm thinking about it the wrong way.

Very simplistically -- a $250K mortgage at 4.5% would result in a $1,267 mortgage payment.  If I say 70% of this is interest and therefore tax deductible, then the after-tax payment is $1,116 (assumes a 17% effective tax rate).   But, in order to make a $1,116 payment, I would need to have $403K in invested assets, assuming a 4% withdrawal rate and the same 17% effective tax rate.   Even at a 6% withdrawal rate, I would need $269K in invested assets.  Both amounts are more than the amount of additional invested assets I gain by virtue of having the mortgage.  Now, it starts to work better at lower mortgage interest rates, but they need to be really low (like 2% or less).

Am I thinking about this the wrong way?   I would be happy to be wrong, as it would make one of my potential RE scenarios easier to close.   But at the moment, I have a view that the most efficient approach is to minimize or eliminate the mortgage.   I can also take this to a different thread if desired.  Hope everyone is off to a good start in their holiday season, and here's to hoping I haven't derailed the thread here!  :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Louise on December 24, 2023, 09:00:52 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 24, 2023, 08:49:12 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 22, 2023, 12:29:29 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 22, 2023, 10:38:17 AM

Quote from: jeroly on December 22, 2023, 06:55:38 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 21, 2023, 11:08:26 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 20, 2023, 04:24:04 AM

Morgan Housel said recently in his podcast that one of the key rules of investing is to let money do its compounding magic as long as  possible. The main advantage you get from saving now is that you are allowing the money you invested twenty years ago more time to grow.

IMO, this is the most compelling reason not to prepay your affordable, low-interest, fixed-rate, tax deductible mortgage. I'm not against paying off one's mortgage, but doing that first and saving for retirement later means you lose out on a shitload of compounding magic. You actually have to earn and save more hard-earned dollars if you put the mortgage cart before the compound interest horse.

While I am in general not an advocate for paying off your mortgage, it's certainly a form of investing - your home equity (and NW) grows with each prepayment.  It compounds as well, in that the interest charged on your balance reduces. In fact it's a form of risk-free investing, like buying a CD or a T-bill.

However, just like those other risk-free investments, it's not always the best strategy...

- If your expected return from a riskier investment is high enough then it's worth taking the risk in, say, stocks, instead of prepaying

- If you can't tie up your money safely but might need access to it (e.g. if you don't have a big enough emergency fund)

- If prevailing interest rates rise, then having the mortgage balance higher is better - you may be able to find other risk free investments paying more than your mortgage interest rate.

I do not disagree. I have recently been told by a mod to tone it down (in much harsher words) so I was treading very carefully. IRL, I'm a die hard fan of the DPOYM Club.

I'm not.  Paying off the mortgage was one of the best best things we ever did.  BUT...we used a stock option windfall to pay it off.  Everyone and their mother was telling us to "invest" the proceeds instead.   But guess what?  If we would have invest it, it would have been in the months leading up to the 2008-2009 financial crisis...and we all know how that turned out.  So we "lucked out".  And in hindsight, paying it off was one our better financial decisions, and it is just nice to have it paid off.   We like simplicity in our finances, and having debt hanging around isn't in our wheelhouse.

Point is, timing can be everything...and nothing, and often comes down to "luck". 

However, to each their own...we all have different thoughts, plans, and situations!  One stance certainly doesn't fit all.

Ok, I'll wade into these (treacherous) waters.....I think I can get past the mental hurdle of having a mortgage in retirement, because after all, you always owe someone for shelter -- whether its rent, property taxes, utilities, mortgage, etc.  So I can get past the mental concept of having a mortgage.   But here is where I struggle with it: 

My challenge is that the mortgage payment "crowds out" other money from the retirement budget.  For example, if my SWD is 4% and my effective combined tax rate is 17%, my mortgage rate would need to be incredibly low not to crowd more money out of the monthly budget than the amount of spend enabled by having the extra invested assets that the mortgage enables.   I've done some simplistic math to look at this, and believe I'm thinking about this problem correctly, but would ask others to chime in if I'm thinking about it the wrong way.

Very simplistically -- a $250K mortgage at 4.5% would result in a $1,267 mortgage payment.  If I say 70% of this is interest and therefore tax deductible, then the after-tax payment is $1,116 (assumes a 17% effective tax rate).   But, in order to make a $1,116 payment, I would need to have $403K in invested assets, assuming a 4% withdrawal rate and the same 17% effective tax rate.   Even at a 6% withdrawal rate, I would need $269K in invested assets.  Both amounts are more than the amount of additional invested assets I gain by virtue of having the mortgage.  Now, it starts to work better at lower mortgage interest rates, but they need to be really low (like 2% or less).

Am I thinking about this the wrong way?   I would be happy to be wrong, as it would make one of my potential RE scenarios easier to close.   But at the moment, I have a view that the most efficient approach is to minimize or eliminate the mortgage.   I can also take this to a different thread if desired.  Hope everyone is off to a good start in their holiday season, and here's to hoping I haven't derailed the thread here!  :-)

We do not have a mortgage and I'm happy we do not. Our mortgage payment was around 1060/mo. Our house wasn't super expensive, so I'm not convinced it made a huge difference. We did invest our mortgage payment after we paid it off too. There are advantages to having a lower income (reduced property taxes, ACA, FAFSA). I don't participate in any mortgage payoff debates because spouse and I are very happy to have a paid off place to live. Besides, it's such a low percentage of our NW anyway since we stayed in our starter home.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 24, 2023, 01:12:07 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 22, 2023, 05:47:07 PM

My favorite boss in the office is retiring in a month from our federal jobs.  He was offered a “retirement job” at a major US bank for essentially 2x his current salary.  It’s “an offer he couldn’t refuse.”  It has me reflecting on what I would do if I was offered something similar, and one more year in general even at my current pay. 

At the end of the day, while I’m sure I could find a use for the extra money, a slightly nicer house, spending a bit more on my normal purchases maybe pulling the trigger on a hotel that costs $1000 a night just because, I really don’t see how it would change my overall enjoyment of life.  It’s amazing what understanding the concept of enough will do for one’s finances.

I came close to this situation earlier this year. I was offered a position at the company I last worked (a startup) doing much what I did except that it would be part time. I was slightly tempted for perhaps a few minutes but I turned it down. I have come to value my independence too much to go back to my pre-retirement life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on December 24, 2023, 05:34:15 PM

Quote from: arcturus on December 24, 2023, 08:49:12 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 22, 2023, 12:29:29 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 22, 2023, 10:38:17 AM

Quote from: jeroly on December 22, 2023, 06:55:38 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 21, 2023, 11:08:26 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 20, 2023, 04:24:04 AM

Morgan Housel said recently in his podcast that one of the key rules of investing is to let money do its compounding magic as long as  possible. The main advantage you get from saving now is that you are allowing the money you invested twenty years ago more time to grow.

IMO, this is the most compelling reason not to prepay your affordable, low-interest, fixed-rate, tax deductible mortgage. I'm not against paying off one's mortgage, but doing that first and saving for retirement later means you lose out on a shitload of compounding magic. You actually have to earn and save more hard-earned dollars if you put the mortgage cart before the compound interest horse.

While I am in general not an advocate for paying off your mortgage, it's certainly a form of investing - your home equity (and NW) grows with each prepayment.  It compounds as well, in that the interest charged on your balance reduces. In fact it's a form of risk-free investing, like buying a CD or a T-bill.

However, just like those other risk-free investments, it's not always the best strategy...

- If your expected return from a riskier investment is high enough then it's worth taking the risk in, say, stocks, instead of prepaying

- If you can't tie up your money safely but might need access to it (e.g. if you don't have a big enough emergency fund)

- If prevailing interest rates rise, then having the mortgage balance higher is better - you may be able to find other risk free investments paying more than your mortgage interest rate.

I do not disagree. I have recently been told by a mod to tone it down (in much harsher words) so I was treading very carefully. IRL, I'm a die hard fan of the DPOYM Club.

I'm not.  Paying off the mortgage was one of the best best things we ever did.  BUT...we used a stock option windfall to pay it off.  Everyone and their mother was telling us to "invest" the proceeds instead.   But guess what?  If we would have invest it, it would have been in the months leading up to the 2008-2009 financial crisis...and we all know how that turned out.  So we "lucked out".  And in hindsight, paying it off was one our better financial decisions, and it is just nice to have it paid off.   We like simplicity in our finances, and having debt hanging around isn't in our wheelhouse.

Point is, timing can be everything...and nothing, and often comes down to "luck". 

However, to each their own...we all have different thoughts, plans, and situations!  One stance certainly doesn't fit all.

Ok, I'll wade into these (treacherous) waters.....I think I can get past the mental hurdle of having a mortgage in retirement, because after all, you always owe someone for shelter -- whether its rent, property taxes, utilities, mortgage, etc.  So I can get past the mental concept of having a mortgage.   But here is where I struggle with it: 

My challenge is that the mortgage payment "crowds out" other money from the retirement budget.  For example, if my SWD is 4% and my effective combined tax rate is 17%, my mortgage rate would need to be incredibly low not to crowd more money out of the monthly budget than the amount of spend enabled by having the extra invested assets that the mortgage enables.   I've done some simplistic math to look at this, and believe I'm thinking about this problem correctly, but would ask others to chime in if I'm thinking about it the wrong way.

Very simplistically -- a $250K mortgage at 4.5% would result in a $1,267 mortgage payment.  If I say 70% of this is interest and therefore tax deductible, then the after-tax payment is $1,116 (assumes a 17% effective tax rate).   But, in order to make a $1,116 payment, I would need to have $403K in invested assets, assuming a 4% withdrawal rate and the same 17% effective tax rate.   Even at a 6% withdrawal rate, I would need $269K in invested assets.  Both amounts are more than the amount of additional invested assets I gain by virtue of having the mortgage.  Now, it starts to work better at lower mortgage interest rates, but they need to be really low (like 2% or less).

Am I thinking about this the wrong way?   I would be happy to be wrong, as it would make one of my potential RE scenarios easier to close.   But at the moment, I have a view that the most efficient approach is to minimize or eliminate the mortgage.   I can also take this to a different thread if desired.  Hope everyone is off to a good start in their holiday season, and here's to hoping I haven't derailed the thread here!  :-)

What you're missing is that part of that after-tax payment of $1,116 (or whatever, depending on your individual tax situation) is the 30% of the $1,267, or $380, that constitutes repayment, i.e. a form of investment. It's not a drain on your investments, just a transfer into a reduction of your mortgage debt. So you're really looking at the rest of the payment versus the SWR's 4% and it is a better comparison.

Edited to add:  I'm somewhat neutral on the topic.  In principle it seems to make sense to maintain a mortgage when the interest rate is considerably below your expected rate on your alternative investments, to pay it off when its interest rate is not much lower or in fact higher than alternative investments, and to keep a watchful eye as to whether to refinance.  However I also recognize that emotion comes into play - being in debt can take a psychological toll on some.  I personally paid off a mortgage when the mortgage servicers were being jerky - being able to pay off the mortgage was in a sense 'fu money' for me.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on December 25, 2023, 08:35:28 AM

This seems like an odd thread to be asking the mortgage payoff question.  I'd think you would have made that decision long ago. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on December 25, 2023, 09:26:41 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on December 22, 2023, 09:02:20 AM

Quote from: oldmannickels on December 22, 2023, 08:55:16 AM

you can sell specific lots of shares that are in a loss position. Let's say you own 5,000 shares, 4,900 are in a gain position and 100 are in a loss position. You could try to isolate the 100 shares in a specific lot to generate a loss.

Indeed you can.

Be sure to set your cost basis method to "specific ID" before actually selling the shares.  Most brokerages I've seen do not use this method by default.  Not switching before the sale can result in a tax situation that you don't expect and is probably less optimal.

I'm really hesitant to do this because I keep thinking I'll screw something up. 

I have to go into the 22% tax bracket to have enough income to qualify for ACA (stay off medicaid, but stay low enough for subsidies).  It's a big tax cliff for me if I don't get that ACA subsidy.   I think I still have about $5K of room to stay under the subsidy cliff and also under the cap gains limit.  I also want to sell some TSLA stock that I bought before the stock splits.  So for every share I sell now, it has a cap gain of about $200/share.  Does that count toward earned income?  AGI? MAGI? 

I also need to consider whether I'm being stupid (elitist) by refusing to go onto Medicaid. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on December 25, 2023, 09:56:45 AM

Quote from: BlueHouse on December 25, 2023, 09:26:41 AM

I also want to sell some TSLA stock that I bought before the stock splits.  So for every share I sell now, it has a cap gain of about $200/share.  Does that count toward earned income?  AGI? MAGI? 

No, it's unearned income.

Yes, it counts towards AGI.  Yes, it counts towards MAGI (and thus affects ACA subsidies).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 26, 2023, 07:11:17 AM

Good points, @jeroly, thanks for correcting my thinking on it.  So I guess one could say that any time your after tax mortgage rate is lower than your SWD it could make financial sense to have the mortgage in retirement.   I am still inclined to think of it as something I'd prefer not to have hanging over my head in retirement, because while I definitely understand your point, the principal amount is less liquid than the remainder of my retirement savings so somehow it still feels like an "expense" even though I understand that is nonsense.

@Dancin'Dog, sorry to have not lived up to your expectations!  I am in this thread with ~$2.6M in invested assets, still have a mortgage (because its a ~3.5%, why pay off while in "accumulation" mode??)  and have historically thought of my next pre-retirement step on the real-estate front would be to downsize on the house and then use this opportunity to become mortgage free, freeing up that monthly cash for other retirement spend.   Given the recent state of the real-estate market around these parts, its got me re-considering whether this strategy is achievable.  Good housing is scarce and prices are very high.    Hence, my query, albeit somewhat misplaced on this thread.   But, alas, apparently I should have made this decision long ago!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 29, 2023, 08:32:52 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 22, 2023, 03:13:44 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 22, 2023, 12:29:29 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 22, 2023, 10:38:17 AM

Quote from: jeroly on December 22, 2023, 06:55:38 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 21, 2023, 11:08:26 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 20, 2023, 04:24:04 AM

Morgan Housel said recently in his podcast that one of the key rules of investing is to let money do its compounding magic as long as  possible. The main advantage you get from saving now is that you are allowing the money you invested twenty years ago more time to grow.

IMO, this is the most compelling reason not to prepay your affordable, low-interest, fixed-rate, tax deductible mortgage. I'm not against paying off one's mortgage, but doing that first and saving for retirement later means you lose out on a shitload of compounding magic. You actually have to earn and save more hard-earned dollars if you put the mortgage cart before the compound interest horse.

While I am in general not an advocate for paying off your mortgage, it's certainly a form of investing - your home equity (and NW) grows with each prepayment.  It compounds as well, in that the interest charged on your balance reduces. In fact it's a form of risk-free investing, like buying a CD or a T-bill.

However, just like those other risk-free investments, it's not always the best strategy...

- If your expected return from a riskier investment is high enough then it's worth taking the risk in, say, stocks, instead of prepaying

- If you can't tie up your money safely but might need access to it (e.g. if you don't have a big enough emergency fund)

- If prevailing interest rates rise, then having the mortgage balance higher is better - you may be able to find other risk free investments paying more than your mortgage interest rate.

I do not disagree. I have recently been told by a mod to tone it down (in much harsher words) so I was treading very carefully. IRL, I'm a die hard fan of the DPOYM Club.

I'm not.  Paying off the mortgage was one of the best best things we ever did.  BUT...we used a stock option windfall to pay it off.  Everyone and their mother was telling us to "invest" the proceeds instead.   But guess what?  If we would have invest it, it would have been in the months leading up to the 2008-2009 financial crisis...and we all know how that turned out.  So we "lucked out".  And in hindsight, paying it off was one our better financial decisions, and it is just nice to have it paid off.   We like simplicity in our finances, and having debt hanging around isn't in our wheelhouse.

Point is, timing can be everything...and nothing, and often comes down to "luck". 

However, to each their own...we all have different thoughts, plans, and situations!  One stance certainly doesn't fit all.

Had you invested along mustachian guidelines in things such as ETFs, your funds would have come roaring back, and then some. OTOH, using a windfall to pay off a mortgage, assuming your retirement savings are on track, isn't the worst option, particularly as mortage rates were in the low-to-mid-sixes during that time.

Don't really agree with you on the "investing" topic....timing is everything.   Absolutely nobody anticipated the crash back then and were in "irrational exuberance" mode.   It would have taken years to get back to principle if we would have invested leading up to the crash.  I do agree that DCA is a great way to go though...just not for us.  Paying off the mortgage had intangible benefits as well.  Like I said, I like things simple, and not having debt to worry about is great.

Just pointing out that paying off the mortgage can be a great thing to do, giving the circumstances.   Not to be an ass...but from your many, many prior posts on the topic, you seem to preach not paying off the mortgage to nearly everyone.  That seems like a really dangerous bias...

But hey, we can agree to disagree...so lets do that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 29, 2023, 08:38:34 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 24, 2023, 08:49:12 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 22, 2023, 12:29:29 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 22, 2023, 10:38:17 AM

Quote from: jeroly on December 22, 2023, 06:55:38 AM

Quote from: Dicey on December 21, 2023, 11:08:26 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on December 20, 2023, 04:24:04 AM

Morgan Housel said recently in his podcast that one of the key rules of investing is to let money do its compounding magic as long as  possible. The main advantage you get from saving now is that you are allowing the money you invested twenty years ago more time to grow.

IMO, this is the most compelling reason not to prepay your affordable, low-interest, fixed-rate, tax deductible mortgage. I'm not against paying off one's mortgage, but doing that first and saving for retirement later means you lose out on a shitload of compounding magic. You actually have to earn and save more hard-earned dollars if you put the mortgage cart before the compound interest horse.

While I am in general not an advocate for paying off your mortgage, it's certainly a form of investing - your home equity (and NW) grows with each prepayment.  It compounds as well, in that the interest charged on your balance reduces. In fact it's a form of risk-free investing, like buying a CD or a T-bill.

However, just like those other risk-free investments, it's not always the best strategy...

- If your expected return from a riskier investment is high enough then it's worth taking the risk in, say, stocks, instead of prepaying

- If you can't tie up your money safely but might need access to it (e.g. if you don't have a big enough emergency fund)

- If prevailing interest rates rise, then having the mortgage balance higher is better - you may be able to find other risk free investments paying more than your mortgage interest rate.

I do not disagree. I have recently been told by a mod to tone it down (in much harsher words) so I was treading very carefully. IRL, I'm a die hard fan of the DPOYM Club.

I'm not.  Paying off the mortgage was one of the best best things we ever did.  BUT...we used a stock option windfall to pay it off.  Everyone and their mother was telling us to "invest" the proceeds instead.   But guess what?  If we would have invest it, it would have been in the months leading up to the 2008-2009 financial crisis...and we all know how that turned out.  So we "lucked out".  And in hindsight, paying it off was one our better financial decisions, and it is just nice to have it paid off.   We like simplicity in our finances, and having debt hanging around isn't in our wheelhouse.

Point is, timing can be everything...and nothing, and often comes down to "luck". 

However, to each their own...we all have different thoughts, plans, and situations!  One stance certainly doesn't fit all.

Ok, I'll wade into these (treacherous) waters.....I think I can get past the mental hurdle of having a mortgage in retirement, because after all, you always owe someone for shelter -- whether its rent, property taxes, utilities, mortgage, etc.  So I can get past the mental concept of having a mortgage.   But here is where I struggle with it: 

My challenge is that the mortgage payment "crowds out" other money from the retirement budget.  For example, if my SWD is 4% and my effective combined tax rate is 17%, my mortgage rate would need to be incredibly low not to crowd more money out of the monthly budget than the amount of spend enabled by having the extra invested assets that the mortgage enables.   I've done some simplistic math to look at this, and believe I'm thinking about this problem correctly, but would ask others to chime in if I'm thinking about it the wrong way.

Very simplistically -- a $250K mortgage at 4.5% would result in a $1,267 mortgage payment.  If I say 70% of this is interest and therefore tax deductible, then the after-tax payment is $1,116 (assumes a 17% effective tax rate).   But, in order to make a $1,116 payment, I would need to have $403K in invested assets, assuming a 4% withdrawal rate and the same 17% effective tax rate.   Even at a 6% withdrawal rate, I would need $269K in invested assets.  Both amounts are more than the amount of additional invested assets I gain by virtue of having the mortgage.  Now, it starts to work better at lower mortgage interest rates, but they need to be really low (like 2% or less).

Am I thinking about this the wrong way?   I would be happy to be wrong, as it would make one of my potential RE scenarios easier to close.   But at the moment, I have a view that the most efficient approach is to minimize or eliminate the mortgage.   I can also take this to a different thread if desired.  Hope everyone is off to a good start in their holiday season, and here's to hoping I haven't derailed the thread here!  :-)

Totally agree with you here...but like @Dicey said, this thread likely isn't the best arena to discuss in detail.  However, I do feel it is a relevant discussion to have.  And there are large threads already devoted to the topic.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on December 29, 2023, 09:28:57 AM

FFS, I've been meaning to follow up on this, but I'm doing a "forum lite" week, as we're on a trip. The response above is so off the mark that apparently now is the time to elaborate.

As I mentioned upthread, I believe this topic is less of a concern for this group. Frankly, though some believe one should always have a mortgage, I do not fully subscribe to that theory, particularly for the folks racing from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!

The reason to hold a long, low, fixed-rate rate mortgage on an affordable home, in a country where mortgages are tax-advantaged, is that it allows you to invest in equities which will compound, resulting in a higher net worth faster than paying off the mortgage before maxing out every other investment option first.

The average shlub is assumed to be an idiot who will blow every spendable cent. (See: Dave Ramsey or Suze Orman for endless examples.) These people may never have the means to retire, let alone early. For them, the goal of paying off the mortgage is not unreasonable. At least they'll have something.

Mustachians are smarter more financially literate than that and know how to save and invest.

Since the goal of MMM, and by extension this forum, is to retire early, holding on to a mortgage (with the caveats listed above) is a smart strategy. Mortgages, if managed correctly, are a powerful tool for building wealth. The sooner you start investing, the faster compound interest will begin to do the heavy lifting. Waiting to invest until the mortgage is paid off simply means it's going to take longer, and you'll have to earn more money (i.e. work longer) to reach FIRE.

If you're on this forum, you're here to strategize so that you can at least reach FI efficiently. Ignoring the leverage a good mortgage creates over the imagined way it's going to "feel" to "kill the mortgage" before filling every other investment option makes so little sense that the blowback continues to surprise me.

Again, I don't believe this discussion is necessary in this group, but the recent scorn that's been directed my way is ironic, given that it's happening on this forum.

For the love of Dog, can we send this discussion back to the DPOYM thread, where both sides of the question are addressed? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 29, 2023, 10:15:46 AM

I think we're in violent agreement on the topic of a mortgage being a valuable tool for building wealth, which I have done, and continue to do, as I still owe (too much IMO) on my current house.   I understand my topic has been voted off the island.  If I need advice on said topic again, I will promptly move it to DPOYM with haste!  Topic closed.

In the spirit of moving to other topics, November and December have certainly been a breath of fresh air -- have they not?   Allowing me to close the year at ~$2.6 invested and ~$3.2 with home equity (may still be slightly conservative on the home equity estimate in this crazy RE market, where pricing your home seems to be more art than science).  When I look back at my annual goals, I am almost exactly 1 year behind now.  But given the depth of 2022, I'll take it for sure and its better than I would have anticipated.   

I trust that everyone on this thread has also had some really positive moves over the past 2 months....here's to continued positive movement in 2024!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 29, 2023, 01:57:32 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 29, 2023, 09:28:57 AM

FFS, I've been meaning to follow up on this, but I'm doing a "forum lite" week, as we're on a trip. The response above is so off the mark that apparently now is the time to elaborate.

As I mentioned upthread, I believe this topic is less of a concern for this group. Frankly, though some believe one should always have a mortgage, I do not fully subscribe to that theory, particularly for the folks racing from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!

The reason to hold a long, low, fixed-rate rate mortgage on an affordable home, in a country where mortgages are tax-advantaged, is that it allows you to invest in equities which will compound, resulting in a higher net worth faster than paying off the mortgage before maxing out every other investment option first.

The average shlub is assumed to be an idiot who will blow every spendable cent. (See: Dave Ramsey or Suze Orman for endless examples.) These people may never have the means to retire, let alone early. For them, the goal of paying off the mortgage is not unreasonable. At least they'll have something.

Mustachians are smarter more financially literate than that and know how to save and invest.

Since the goal of MMM, and by extension this forum, is to retire early, holding on to a mortgage (with the caveats listed above) is a smart strategy. Mortgages, if managed correctly, are a powerful tool for building wealth. The sooner you start investing, the faster compound interest will begin to do the heavy lifting. Waiting to invest until the mortgage is paid off simply means it's going to take longer, and you'll have to earn more money (i.e. work longer) to reach FIRE.

If you're on this forum, you're here to strategize so that you can at least reach FI efficiently. Ignoring the leverage a good mortgage creates over the imagined way it's going to "feel" to "kill the mortgage" before filling every other investment option makes so little sense that the blowback continues to surprise me.

Again, I don't believe this discussion is necessary in this group, but the recent scorn that's been directed my way is ironic, given that it's happening on this forum.

For the love of Dog, can we send this discussion back to the DPOYM thread, where both sides of the question are addressed?

I'm assuming the "scorn" you mentioned was because of my response.  No disrespect, but I disagree with many of your views on mortgages, and in my view you have come off a bit biased in the past in other threads.  However, that is ok...we can disagree.

My largest quibble regarding mortgages post-retirement is the fact you need "income" to service the debt...and that can affect many things, most notably engineering income for ACA benefits, etc...  Like I have mentioned many times, I'll pretty much always vouch for simplicity in finances, especially in early retirement. 

But yeah...let's move this over to the mortgage-specific threads.  I'd vote for the PYOM thread...haha.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 29, 2023, 02:04:40 PM

Quote from: arcturus on December 29, 2023, 10:15:46 AM

In the spirit of moving to other topics, November and December have certainly been a breath of fresh air -- have they not?   Allowing me to close the year at ~$2.6 invested and ~$3.2 with home equity (may still be slightly conservative on the home equity estimate in this crazy RE market, where pricing your home seems to be more art than science).  When I look back at my annual goals, I am almost exactly 1 year behind now.  But given the depth of 2022, I'll take it for sure and its better than I would have anticipated.   

I trust that everyone on this thread has also had some really positive moves over the past 2 months....here's to continued positive movement in 2024!

Yep...the stock market moves over the last couple months have been nothing short of extraordinary, especially since many didn't expect it.  JPOW's hint of rate cuts were a face punch to the bears.  Since yields should be dropping next year, our holdings in Vanguard Wellesley should be well positioned as well.

I also actively trade stocks, which I'll admit isn't for the feint of heart.  However, it is a side gig hobby for me at this point, and I hit "multi baggers" in a couple holdings ( ALT for one ).   

All in all, this boosted us up to around 3.4 invested...and around 3.9 including the paid off house.   Just about at the "and beyond" threshold!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 29, 2023, 02:17:26 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 29, 2023, 01:57:32 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 29, 2023, 09:28:57 AM

FFS, I've been meaning to follow up on this, but I'm doing a "forum lite" week, as we're on a trip. The response above is so off the mark that apparently now is the time to elaborate.

As I mentioned upthread, I believe this topic is less of a concern for this group. Frankly, though some believe one should always have a mortgage, I do not fully subscribe to that theory, particularly for the folks racing from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!

The reason to hold a long, low, fixed-rate rate mortgage on an affordable home, in a country where mortgages are tax-advantaged, is that it allows you to invest in equities which will compound, resulting in a higher net worth faster than paying off the mortgage before maxing out every other investment option first.

The average shlub is assumed to be an idiot who will blow every spendable cent. (See: Dave Ramsey or Suze Orman for endless examples.) These people may never have the means to retire, let alone early. For them, the goal of paying off the mortgage is not unreasonable. At least they'll have something.

Mustachians are smarter more financially literate than that and know how to save and invest.

Since the goal of MMM, and by extension this forum, is to retire early, holding on to a mortgage (with the caveats listed above) is a smart strategy. Mortgages, if managed correctly, are a powerful tool for building wealth. The sooner you start investing, the faster compound interest will begin to do the heavy lifting. Waiting to invest until the mortgage is paid off simply means it's going to take longer, and you'll have to earn more money (i.e. work longer) to reach FIRE.

If you're on this forum, you're here to strategize so that you can at least reach FI efficiently. Ignoring the leverage a good mortgage creates over the imagined way it's going to "feel" to "kill the mortgage" before filling every other investment option makes so little sense that the blowback continues to surprise me.

Again, I don't believe this discussion is necessary in this group, but the recent scorn that's been directed my way is ironic, given that it's happening on this forum.

For the love of Dog, can we send this discussion back to the DPOYM thread, where both sides of the question are addressed?

I'm assuming the "scorn" you mentioned was because of my response.  No disrespect, but I disagree with many of your views on mortgages, and in my view you have come off a bit biased in the past in other threads.  However, that is ok...we can disagree.

My largest quibble regarding mortgages post-retirement is the fact you need "income" to service the debt...and that can affect many things, most notably engineering income for ACA benefits, etc...  Like I have mentioned many times, I'll pretty much always vouch for simplicity in finances, especially in early retirement. 

But yeah...let's move this over to the mortgage-specific threads.  I'd vote for the PYOM thread...haha.

And that is where personal finance is personal.  I had a paid off mortgage in 2016, it was meh.  I felt much better after in 2017 when on my next house I took out a mortgage and invested the rest.

I now have the largest mortgage I’ve ever had in my life by at least double, and it’s a 30 year one at that.  One I’m carrying into RE next year on year 4 of the mortgage.  I could pay it off tomorrow.  But it is a cost I’m willing to allocate for housing.  Of course, ACA and trying to manufacture low income so I can get a subsidy is not something I’m going to worry about, especially since I’m in this thread. 

ETA: and it’s DPOYM because we have been told not to post in the pay off your mortgage threads.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on December 29, 2023, 02:31:34 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 29, 2023, 02:17:26 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 29, 2023, 01:57:32 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 29, 2023, 09:28:57 AM

FFS, I've been meaning to follow up on this, but I'm doing a "forum lite" week, as we're on a trip. The response above is so off the mark that apparently now is the time to elaborate.

As I mentioned upthread, I believe this topic is less of a concern for this group. Frankly, though some believe one should always have a mortgage, I do not fully subscribe to that theory, particularly for the folks racing from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!

The reason to hold a long, low, fixed-rate rate mortgage on an affordable home, in a country where mortgages are tax-advantaged, is that it allows you to invest in equities which will compound, resulting in a higher net worth faster than paying off the mortgage before maxing out every other investment option first.

The average shlub is assumed to be an idiot who will blow every spendable cent. (See: Dave Ramsey or Suze Orman for endless examples.) These people may never have the means to retire, let alone early. For them, the goal of paying off the mortgage is not unreasonable. At least they'll have something.

Mustachians are smarter more financially literate than that and know how to save and invest.

Since the goal of MMM, and by extension this forum, is to retire early, holding on to a mortgage (with the caveats listed above) is a smart strategy. Mortgages, if managed correctly, are a powerful tool for building wealth. The sooner you start investing, the faster compound interest will begin to do the heavy lifting. Waiting to invest until the mortgage is paid off simply means it's going to take longer, and you'll have to earn more money (i.e. work longer) to reach FIRE.

If you're on this forum, you're here to strategize so that you can at least reach FI efficiently. Ignoring the leverage a good mortgage creates over the imagined way it's going to "feel" to "kill the mortgage" before filling every other investment option makes so little sense that the blowback continues to surprise me.

Again, I don't believe this discussion is necessary in this group, but the recent scorn that's been directed my way is ironic, given that it's happening on this forum.

For the love of Dog, can we send this discussion back to the DPOYM thread, where both sides of the question are addressed?

I'm assuming the "scorn" you mentioned was because of my response.  No disrespect, but I disagree with many of your views on mortgages, and in my view you have come off a bit biased in the past in other threads.  However, that is ok...we can disagree.

My largest quibble regarding mortgages post-retirement is the fact you need "income" to service the debt...and that can affect many things, most notably engineering income for ACA benefits, etc...  Like I have mentioned many times, I'll pretty much always vouch for simplicity in finances, especially in early retirement. 

But yeah...let's move this over to the mortgage-specific threads.  I'd vote for the PYOM thread...haha.

And that is where personal finance is personal.  I had a paid off mortgage in 2016, it was meh.  I felt much better after in 2017 when on my next house I took out a mortgage and invested the rest.

I now have the largest mortgage I’ve ever had in my life by at least double, and it’s a 30 year one at that.  One I’m carrying into RE next year on year 4 of the mortgage.  I could pay it off tomorrow.  But it is a cost I’m willing to allocate for housing.  Of course, ACA and trying to manufacture low income so I can get a subsidy is not something I’m going to worry about, especially since I’m in this thread. 

ETA: and it’s DPOYM because we have been told not to post in the pay off your mortgage threads.

Hmm ok.  However, plenty of high net worth mustachians engineer their income for ACA subsidies.  Not sure where you got the idea they don't.  Having as little "income" as possible ( and fewer things to pay for...like mortgages ) is key do doing that. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 29, 2023, 02:40:52 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 29, 2023, 02:31:34 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 29, 2023, 02:17:26 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 29, 2023, 01:57:32 PM

Quote from: Dicey on December 29, 2023, 09:28:57 AM

FFS, I've been meaning to follow up on this, but I'm doing a "forum lite" week, as we're on a trip. The response above is so off the mark that apparently now is the time to elaborate.

As I mentioned upthread, I believe this topic is less of a concern for this group. Frankly, though some believe one should always have a mortgage, I do not fully subscribe to that theory, particularly for the folks racing from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!

The reason to hold a long, low, fixed-rate rate mortgage on an affordable home, in a country where mortgages are tax-advantaged, is that it allows you to invest in equities which will compound, resulting in a higher net worth faster than paying off the mortgage before maxing out every other investment option first.

The average shlub is assumed to be an idiot who will blow every spendable cent. (See: Dave Ramsey or Suze Orman for endless examples.) These people may never have the means to retire, let alone early. For them, the goal of paying off the mortgage is not unreasonable. At least they'll have something.

Mustachians are smarter more financially literate than that and know how to save and invest.

Since the goal of MMM, and by extension this forum, is to retire early, holding on to a mortgage (with the caveats listed above) is a smart strategy. Mortgages, if managed correctly, are a powerful tool for building wealth. The sooner you start investing, the faster compound interest will begin to do the heavy lifting. Waiting to invest until the mortgage is paid off simply means it's going to take longer, and you'll have to earn more money (i.e. work longer) to reach FIRE.

If you're on this forum, you're here to strategize so that you can at least reach FI efficiently. Ignoring the leverage a good mortgage creates over the imagined way it's going to "feel" to "kill the mortgage" before filling every other investment option makes so little sense that the blowback continues to surprise me.

Again, I don't believe this discussion is necessary in this group, but the recent scorn that's been directed my way is ironic, given that it's happening on this forum.

For the love of Dog, can we send this discussion back to the DPOYM thread, where both sides of the question are addressed?

I'm assuming the "scorn" you mentioned was because of my response.  No disrespect, but I disagree with many of your views on mortgages, and in my view you have come off a bit biased in the past in other threads.  However, that is ok...we can disagree.

My largest quibble regarding mortgages post-retirement is the fact you need "income" to service the debt...and that can affect many things, most notably engineering income for ACA benefits, etc...  Like I have mentioned many times, I'll pretty much always vouch for simplicity in finances, especially in early retirement. 

But yeah...let's move this over to the mortgage-specific threads.  I'd vote for the PYOM thread...haha.

And that is where personal finance is personal.  I had a paid off mortgage in 2016, it was meh.  I felt much better after in 2017 when on my next house I took out a mortgage and invested the rest.

I now have the largest mortgage I’ve ever had in my life by at least double, and it’s a 30 year one at that.  One I’m carrying into RE next year on year 4 of the mortgage.  I could pay it off tomorrow.  But it is a cost I’m willing to allocate for housing.  Of course, ACA and trying to manufacture low income so I can get a subsidy is not something I’m going to worry about, especially since I’m in this thread. 

ETA: and it’s DPOYM because we have been told not to post in the pay off your mortgage threads.

Hmm ok.  However, plenty of high net worth mustachians engineer their income for ACA subsidies.  Not sure where you got the idea they don't.  Having as little "income" as possible ( and fewer things to pay for...like mortgages ) is key do doing that.

ACA is 100% not a factor for me.  I will never be on an ACA plan.  That is the personal for me.  Mainly I’m giving an example of how not paying off the mortgage is good for me, as you are using your mortgage payoff as a good for you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 29, 2023, 04:57:53 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 10, 2021, 05:16:34 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 10, 2021, 11:08:59 AM

Hmm we're both retired but our 0.69% WR seems to be having a similar effect of actively contributing.

At least during this bull market..:)

Amazing!  You are either well into "and Beyond" territory, or you have your spending much more contained than I do.  Definitely tells me that I have more work to do to get my spending more under control before pulling the RE trigger!  Well done, @Exflyboy !!

Well thanks.

And/or we have other income.. In our case two pesky rentals and a farm "business".

We also have future income in the form of smallish pensions and SS which increase in value every day. All of this is going to result in enormous tax bills come RMD time. Good problem to have though.

We don't spend much honestly, we are probably a little "too good" at not spending which results from a lifetime of practice.

We are not into "and beyond" territory.. At least not yet..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 30, 2023, 12:52:12 AM

I guess we're all posting our 2023 year in review.
For me it has been a fantastic year. Our first grandchild was born in March. He's a great little guy and we just celebrated his first Christmas.
I did some winter backpacking in my home state of Louisiana. We actually have a few hills up north. It was in the 20s and that helped a lot. I did some light bicycle touring during the spring in Mississippi. I also got in some great bicycle rides in Florida. Then in May I took off for a grand adventure on the Appalachian Trail. I walked almost 450 miles across Tennessee and Virginia. Spending 6 weeks without a car was a first for me. There is both freedom and limits to being without a car far away from home. I remained injury free thankfully and didn't even get a blister. I treated myself along with my wife and some friends to a week in a Shenandoah National Park condo. It was a fantastic way to end my journey. During the heat of August Category 3 Hurricane Idealia roared into Taylor County Florida. We'd feared for days that it would hit our Citrus County home. It passed 100 miles to our north. I went to Florida the day before the storm to make preparation. Since we were fine, I went out and helped with the cleanup. I first went to Cedar Key and volunteered at a Methodist Church. The 150 year old church had never before flooded. That changed when a 12 foot storm surge hit the island. I ripped out stinking floors and walls all day. They were great people who fought back strongly. The next day I traveled up to Perry Florida which was ground zero for the storm. I joined Team Rubicon helping remove trees from houses. It was a different scene from Cedar Key. These people were hurting. I spent a day unloading cases of water and MREs from trucks. I got severely sunburned and that night went to bed in a hot building and no shower. Luckily, we eventually got showers, but no power for air conditioning. I would sit in my truck, air-conditioning running for a few minutes prior to getting in my army cot. I sweat off many pounds that week
I've since put all the weight I'd lost back on. I do have a cure for that. January 4th I won't be sleeping in my warm bed with my loving wife, I'll be starting the Florida Trail. January 2nd, I'll be driving to our Florida home. I'm going to quickly get some yard work done on the 3rd. On January 4th, I'm renting a car and driving it to Miami. In Miami I'll meet up with a fellow hiker and we'll be picked up by a shuttle driver that will transport us to the trailhead. The first 30 to 50 miles we'll be hiking in the Everglades. Big Cypress Preserve, where just last month a 17 foot, 200 pound python was caught. There is also bears and Florida Panthers. Toss in a few water moccasins and 12 foot alligators just for kicks. The main enemy is walking countless miles in mud, muck and up to waist deep water. The only points to camp are a few islands which are only a few feet above the water themselves. Biting insects see you as food. Your drinking water source is the same water you're walking in. I'll be chemically treating and filtering my water. Normally I just do one or the other. Once out of the swamp section the first week, I'll be rambling along canal banks, walking along an occasional busy highway, hiking up forest trails in slightly hilly terrain and marching through soft sugar sand. Our house is 425 miles from the start point and just 3 miles off the trail route. I have to make serious miles to make it back. On February 3rd I'll be joining a 350 mile mostly off-road mountain bike race in central Florida. I'll take the gear out of my backpack and add it to my bicycle packing bags. I hope to complete the race within a week. Some will ride the race almost without sleeping. I'll be carrying my camping gear. Eating in restaurants and probably spend more than one night in a hotel or hostel along the way. For me it's about completing the 350 loop. Luckily the loops passes within 5 miles of my house. After the bike race I'll do a little home maintenance and pack up for return to Louisiana for a while.  I'll be missing the family by then. I'm actually going to do a little work. I'll put in 3 days at work, then my wife and I are headed to Texas for her LSU Lady Basketball Tigers. We'll be playing Texas A&M. After returning home I'm going to work a few days more. My official retirement date is March 22, 2024. This past spring I gave a one year notice. Since in that period I had 21 weeks of paid time off to use within a 41 week period of time I felt foolish not to do so. In addition they'll award me the 2023 bonus and an additional one month pay bonus for the one year notice.  I'll have to put in 17 work days between February and March. No big deal.
In April I may get back to hiking the Florida Trail or skip up to the Pinhoti Trail in Georgia. It's all part of the Eastern Continental Divide Trail. It's over 4000 miles in total. It starts at Key West Florida and goes into Canada.
Plenty of other cool things happened like our trip to Las Vegas, but this post is long enough.
Financially 2023 was fantastic year for us. Money for us will most likely be a worry free commodity. With 3.5 million liquid and well into beyond territory including all our paid off assets it's play time. I think 2024 will be good to us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on December 30, 2023, 07:10:37 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 30, 2023, 12:52:12 AM

I guess we're all posting our 2023 year in review.
For me it has been a fantastic year. Our first grandchild was born in March. He's a great little guy and we just celebrated his first Christmas.
I did some winter backpacking in my home state of Louisiana. We actually have a few hills up north. It was in the 20s and that helped a lot. I did some light bicycle touring during the spring in Mississippi. I also got in some great bicycle rides in Florida. Then in May I took off for a grand adventure on the Appalachian Trail. I walked almost 450 miles across Tennessee and Virginia. Spending 6 weeks without a car was a first for me. There is both freedom and limits to being without a car far away from home. I remained injury free thankfully and didn't even get a blister. I treated myself along with my wife and some friends to a week in a Shenandoah National Park condo. It was a fantastic way to end my journey. During the heat of August Category 3 Hurricane Idealia roared into Taylor County Florida. We'd feared for days that it would hit our Citrus County home. It passed 100 miles to our north. I went to Florida the day before the storm to make preparation. Since we were fine, I went out and helped with the cleanup. I first went to Cedar Key and volunteered at a Methodist Church. The 150 year old church had never before flooded. That changed when a 12 foot storm surge hit the island. I ripped out stinking floors and walls all day. They were great people who fought back strongly. The next day I traveled up to Perry Florida which was ground zero for the storm. I joined Team Rubicon helping remove trees from houses. It was a different scene from Cedar Key. These people were hurting. I spent a day unloading cases of water and MREs from trucks. I got severely sunburned and that night went to bed in a hot building and no shower. Luckily, we eventually got showers, but no power for air conditioning. I would sit in my truck, air-conditioning running for a few minutes prior to getting in my army cot. I sweat off many pounds that week
I've since put all the weight I'd lost back on. I do have a cure for that. January 4th I won't be sleeping in my warm bed with my loving wife, I'll be starting the Florida Trail. January 2nd, I'll be driving to our Florida home. I'm going to quickly get some yard work done on the 3rd. On January 4th, I'm renting a car and driving it to Miami. In Miami I'll meet up with a fellow hiker and we'll be picked up by a shuttle driver that will transport us to the trailhead. The first 30 to 50 miles we'll be hiking in the Everglades. Big Cypress Preserve, where just last month a 17 foot, 200 pound python was caught. There is also bears and Florida Panthers. Toss in a few water moccasins and 12 foot alligators just for kicks. The main enemy is walking countless miles in mud, muck and up to waist deep water. The only points to camp are a few islands which are only a few feet above the water themselves. Biting insects see you as food. Your drinking water source is the same water you're walking in. I'll be chemically treating and filtering my water. Normally I just do one or the other. Once out of the swamp section the first week, I'll be rambling along canal banks, walking along an occasional busy highway, hiking up forest trails in slightly hilly terrain and marching through soft sugar sand. Our house is 425 miles from the start point and just 3 miles off the trail route. I have to make serious miles to make it back. On February 3rd I'll be joining a 350 mile mostly off-road mountain bike race in central Florida. I'll take the gear out of my backpack and add it to my bicycle packing bags. I hope to complete the race within a week. Some will ride the race almost without sleeping. I'll be carrying my camping gear. Eating in restaurants and probably spend more than one night in a hotel or hostel along the way. For me it's about completing the 350 loop. Luckily the loops passes within 5 miles of my house. After the bike race I'll do a little home maintenance and pack up for return to Louisiana for a while.  I'll be missing the family by then. I'm actually going to do a little work. I'll put in 3 days at work, then my wife and I are headed to Texas for her LSU Lady Basketball Tigers. We'll be playing Texas A&M. After returning home I'm going to work a few days more. My official retirement date is March 22, 2024. This past spring I gave a one year notice. Since in that period I had 21 weeks of paid time off to use within a 41 week period of time I felt foolish not to do so. In addition they'll award me the 2023 bonus and an additional one month pay bonus for the one year notice.  I'll have to put in 17 work days between February and March. No big deal.
In April I may get back to hiking the Florida Trail or skip up to the Pinhoti Trail in Georgia. It's all part of the Eastern Continental Divide Trail. It's over 4000 miles in total. It starts at Key West Florida and goes into Canada.
Plenty of other cool things happened like our trip to Las Vegas, but this post is long enough.
Financially 2023 was fantastic year for us. Money for us will most likely be a worry free commodity. With 3.5 million liquid and well into beyond territory including all our paid off assets it's play time. I think 2024 will be good to us.

It's good to hear that they caught that 200 lb snake before your hike through the swamp.  I'd hate to hear he caught you right before your retirement.  ;)


Do you carry a camera on your extreme hikes?  It would be great to see some of the views and animals you see along the way. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 30, 2023, 07:57:23 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 29, 2023, 04:57:53 PM

Quote from: arcturus on July 10, 2021, 05:16:34 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on July 10, 2021, 11:08:59 AM

Hmm we're both retired but our 0.69% WR seems to be having a similar effect of actively contributing.

At least during this bull market..:)

Amazing!  You are either well into "and Beyond" territory, or you have your spending much more contained than I do.  Definitely tells me that I have more work to do to get my spending more under control before pulling the RE trigger!  Well done, @Exflyboy !!

Well thanks.

And/or we have other income.. In our case two pesky rentals and a farm "business".

We also have future income in the form of smallish pensions and SS which increase in value every day. All of this is going to result in enormous tax bills come RMD time. Good problem to have though.

We don't spend much honestly, we are probably a little "too good" at not spending which results from a lifetime of practice.

We are not into "and beyond" territory.. At least not yet..:)

Aha!  That makes sense....a 1% withdrawal rate would be nowhere close for me!  But you seem to have found a good balance between earning some supplemental income and "coasting" into retirement.  A coast strategy remains a challenge for me to get my head around for me in my situation with my bigco employer.  And based on the prior wisdom you've shared on this thread re: ACA subsidy, it seems you are doing a great job of threading the needle in managing your income at the same time! 

I understand what you mean with becoming "too good" at not spending.  I would not say that's me, but there is another related aspect that I am concerned I will struggle with --- and that is becoming so accustomed to watching the stache grow that when RE does come for me, will I be able to watch the stache decline?  Interested in how others cope with that.  It feels like it could be stressful.  I guess you just have to trust the spreadsheets at that point.  Anyways, I'm not quite there yet.   But it is a concern.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 30, 2023, 08:15:27 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on December 30, 2023, 12:52:12 AM

I guess we're all posting our 2023 year in review.
For me it has been a fantastic year. Our first grandchild was born in March. He's a great little guy and we just celebrated his first Christmas.
I did some winter backpacking in my home state of Louisiana. We actually have a few hills up north. It was in the 20s and that helped a lot. I did some light bicycle touring during the spring in Mississippi. I also got in some great bicycle rides in Florida. Then in May I took off for a grand adventure on the Appalachian Trail. I walked almost 450 miles across Tennessee and Virginia. Spending 6 weeks without a car was a first for me. There is both freedom and limits to being without a car far away from home. I remained injury free thankfully and didn't even get a blister. I treated myself along with my wife and some friends to a week in a Shenandoah National Park condo. It was a fantastic way to end my journey. During the heat of August Category 3 Hurricane Idealia roared into Taylor County Florida. We'd feared for days that it would hit our Citrus County home. It passed 100 miles to our north. I went to Florida the day before the storm to make preparation. Since we were fine, I went out and helped with the cleanup. I first went to Cedar Key and volunteered at a Methodist Church. The 150 year old church had never before flooded. That changed when a 12 foot storm surge hit the island. I ripped out stinking floors and walls all day. They were great people who fought back strongly. The next day I traveled up to Perry Florida which was ground zero for the storm. I joined Team Rubicon helping remove trees from houses. It was a different scene from Cedar Key. These people were hurting. I spent a day unloading cases of water and MREs from trucks. I got severely sunburned and that night went to bed in a hot building and no shower. Luckily, we eventually got showers, but no power for air conditioning. I would sit in my truck, air-conditioning running for a few minutes prior to getting in my army cot. I sweat off many pounds that week
I've since put all the weight I'd lost back on. I do have a cure for that. January 4th I won't be sleeping in my warm bed with my loving wife, I'll be starting the Florida Trail. January 2nd, I'll be driving to our Florida home. I'm going to quickly get some yard work done on the 3rd. On January 4th, I'm renting a car and driving it to Miami. In Miami I'll meet up with a fellow hiker and we'll be picked up by a shuttle driver that will transport us to the trailhead. The first 30 to 50 miles we'll be hiking in the Everglades. Big Cypress Preserve, where just last month a 17 foot, 200 pound python was caught. There is also bears and Florida Panthers. Toss in a few water moccasins and 12 foot alligators just for kicks. The main enemy is walking countless miles in mud, muck and up to waist deep water. The only points to camp are a few islands which are only a few feet above the water themselves. Biting insects see you as food. Your drinking water source is the same water you're walking in. I'll be chemically treating and filtering my water. Normally I just do one or the other. Once out of the swamp section the first week, I'll be rambling along canal banks, walking along an occasional busy highway, hiking up forest trails in slightly hilly terrain and marching through soft sugar sand. Our house is 425 miles from the start point and just 3 miles off the trail route. I have to make serious miles to make it back. On February 3rd I'll be joining a 350 mile mostly off-road mountain bike race in central Florida. I'll take the gear out of my backpack and add it to my bicycle packing bags. I hope to complete the race within a week. Some will ride the race almost without sleeping. I'll be carrying my camping gear. Eating in restaurants and probably spend more than one night in a hotel or hostel along the way. For me it's about completing the 350 loop. Luckily the loops passes within 5 miles of my house. After the bike race I'll do a little home maintenance and pack up for return to Louisiana for a while.  I'll be missing the family by then. I'm actually going to do a little work. I'll put in 3 days at work, then my wife and I are headed to Texas for her LSU Lady Basketball Tigers. We'll be playing Texas A&M. After returning home I'm going to work a few days more. My official retirement date is March 22, 2024. This past spring I gave a one year notice. Since in that period I had 21 weeks of paid time off to use within a 41 week period of time I felt foolish not to do so. In addition they'll award me the 2023 bonus and an additional one month pay bonus for the one year notice.  I'll have to put in 17 work days between February and March. No big deal.
In April I may get back to hiking the Florida Trail or skip up to the Pinhoti Trail in Georgia. It's all part of the Eastern Continental Divide Trail. It's over 4000 miles in total. It starts at Key West Florida and goes into Canada.
Plenty of other cool things happened like our trip to Las Vegas, but this post is long enough.
Financially 2023 was fantastic year for us. Money for us will most likely be a worry free commodity. With 3.5 million liquid and well into beyond territory including all our paid off assets it's play time. I think 2024 will be good to us.

You have got it figured out @Bateaux !  You have definitely set yourself up to "retire to" something.  Sometimes I feel more like I'll be "retiring from" something.   Congrats on all your adventures and on your altruism - very good to hear!   I must be honest, I thought you already pulled the RE trigger over the summer...but clearly you have figured out how to ease into it with your employer, so good on you!

PS - and of course congrats on the new member of the family!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on December 30, 2023, 08:27:43 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 29, 2023, 02:04:40 PM

Quote from: arcturus on December 29, 2023, 10:15:46 AM

In the spirit of moving to other topics, November and December have certainly been a breath of fresh air -- have they not?   Allowing me to close the year at ~$2.6 invested and ~$3.2 with home equity (may still be slightly conservative on the home equity estimate in this crazy RE market, where pricing your home seems to be more art than science).  When I look back at my annual goals, I am almost exactly 1 year behind now.  But given the depth of 2022, I'll take it for sure and its better than I would have anticipated.   

I trust that everyone on this thread has also had some really positive moves over the past 2 months....here's to continued positive movement in 2024!

Yep...the stock market moves over the last couple months have been nothing short of extraordinary, especially since many didn't expect it.  JPOW's hint of rate cuts were a face punch to the bears.  Since yields should be dropping next year, our holdings in Vanguard Wellesley should be well positioned as well.

I also actively trade stocks, which I'll admit isn't for the feint of heart.  However, it is a side gig hobby for me at this point, and I hit "multi baggers" in a couple holdings ( ALT for one ).   

All in all, this boosted us up to around 3.4 invested...and around 3.9 including the paid off house.   Just about at the "and beyond" threshold!

Good for you @farmecologist -- almost to "and Beyond."   Just looked at the stock chart for ALT -- wow.  That's like a 5-6 bagger, depending on your timing.   I've sworn off stock picking (for now :-)),  but am concerned about how concentrated I am getting in the Big 5-7 tech companies based on my index funds.  Have started to move some of the retirement funds (to avoid capital gains) into value and equal weighted index funds to try to balance things out a bit.   Hope your success continues in 2024!   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on December 30, 2023, 08:41:52 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 30, 2023, 07:57:23 AM

another related aspect that I am concerned I will struggle with --- and that is becoming so accustomed to watching the stache grow that when RE does come for me, will I be able to watch the stache decline?  Interested in how others cope with that.  It feels like it could be stressful.  I guess you just have to trust the spreadsheets at that point.  Anyways, I'm not quite there yet.   But it is a concern.

I think on this a lot…even though my aim is to have my NW peak at some point, the down slope is a little unnerving.  Even after downshifting (2021) and not heavily investing any longer, my liquid net worth has grown on average higher than my highest annual base salary…math is working!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Arbitrage on December 30, 2023, 10:26:12 AM

Greetings from another new entrant.  I've been hesitant to graduate from the last thread, but ran out of sub-$2M milestones to accomplish (liquid net worth only, ignoring college savings), so here I am!  Looking forward to discussing caviar, the Hamptons, the Rolls, and private schooling.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on December 30, 2023, 11:19:00 AM

Quote from: Arbitrage on December 30, 2023, 10:26:12 AM

Greetings from another new entrant.  I've been hesitant to graduate from the last thread, but ran out of sub-$2M milestones to accomplish (liquid net worth only, ignoring college savings), so here I am!  Looking forward to discussing caviar, the Hamptons, the Rolls, and private schooling.

Welcome to the high life, @Arbitrage!

(Well, actually, for most of us here, we're the same lowlifes we were before we made this thread... for tips on living large you may need to look at the r/fatFIRE subreddit...)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on December 30, 2023, 12:21:29 PM

Quote from: Arbitrage on December 30, 2023, 10:26:12 AM

Greetings from another new entrant.  I've been hesitant to graduate from the last thread, but ran out of sub-$2M milestones to accomplish (liquid net worth only, ignoring college savings), so here I am!  Looking forward to discussing caviar, the Hamptons, the Rolls, and private schooling.

Yeah, welcome. As noted over the last page or so, if you have a mortgage you are a lowlife as jeroly mentioned, and if you don’t have one, you are also a lowlife. Recognizing our lowlifeness is a key to our continued success.

Congrats on checking off a series of milestones that really solidify your standing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on December 30, 2023, 05:00:19 PM

Quote from: Arbitrage on December 30, 2023, 10:26:12 AM

Greetings from another new entrant.  I've been hesitant to graduate from the last thread, but ran out of sub-$2M milestones to accomplish (liquid net worth only, ignoring college savings), so here I am!  Looking forward to discussing caviar, the Hamptons, the Rolls, and private schooling.

Congrats! We are not yet quite at the Caviar/Rolls/house-in-the-Hamptons level as yet but perhaps in a few years :-) We had an incredible year and are within striking distance of double the upper bound of this group's name. In an effort to reduce our totals, we have drastically increased our charitable donations.

We also started enjoying the pleasures of luxury travel: One highlight was flying business class on Emirates to Asia (enjoyed drinks in the upper deck bar on the A380). Also flew first class to vacations in California and Mexico City. Used credit card points to stay in $500 per night hotels. Despite all of this, our travel expenses were only $31k. I have absolutely no guilt about this spending - we never traveled much in the past twenty years until I retired.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 30, 2023, 05:01:00 PM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on December 30, 2023, 08:41:52 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 30, 2023, 07:57:23 AM

another related aspect that I am concerned I will struggle with --- and that is becoming so accustomed to watching the stache grow that when RE does come for me, will I be able to watch the stache decline?  Interested in how others cope with that.  It feels like it could be stressful.  I guess you just have to trust the spreadsheets at that point.  Anyways, I'm not quite there yet.   But it is a concern.

I think on this a lot…even though my aim is to have my NW peak at some point, the down slope is a little unnerving.  Even after downshifting (2021) and not heavily investing any longer, my liquid net worth has grown on average higher than my highest annual base salary…math is working!

This brings up an interesting point (to me at least). in that why do we focus on the size of the stash but we don't focus on how much income that stash will generate.

You both said it.. I.e, being a bit un nerved at watching the stash decline in value.. As if the size of the stash itself is whats important.. But not the income that stash will generate.

I too am guilty of this, to the point that I completely ignored how much our pensions an SS would generate, all while making the stash as big as possible. Even today I really don't think about how much guaranteed income I will have in addition to my stash.. Just "worry" about the stash itself.

This is a bit off base to my mind. I mean our total NW is around $3.6M (including house). But if I wait till 70 years old the pensions alone will be worth around $100k.

At 4%, the required additional NW to make that $100k is about $2.5M (assuming I lived to 100 years). Now you would have to do a net present value calculation to determine what the lump sump value of that pension is but in reality its meaningless.

I suggest a more useful number is to convert the NW into income and add the pension value that.

Anyway, I can say at a WR of less than 1%, the stash has continued to climb in the last 10 years that I have not had a "grown up" job.. Hardly surprising.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on December 30, 2023, 06:25:33 PM

@arcturus
I hope I have it figured out. I was able to extend my employment and while doing so arrange to spend a massive amount of paid time off.  I hope to enjoy adventure sports for a while to come.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on December 30, 2023, 07:36:40 PM

No house in The Hamptons, but we did stay in a Hampton Inn last week! It was pretty on par with our usual Holiday Inn Express, except the bed was less comfy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on December 30, 2023, 08:56:53 PM

Oooooo, Hampton Inn.  Free full breakfast.  Hmmmmm, breakfast.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 30, 2023, 09:12:25 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 30, 2023, 08:56:53 PM

Oooooo, Hampton Inn.  Free full breakfast.  Hmmmmm, breakfast.

And this folks is how we get to "beyond" territory ..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 30, 2023, 09:29:32 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 30, 2023, 05:01:00 PM

This brings up an interesting point (to me at least). in that why do we focus on the size of the stash but we don't focus on how much income that stash will generate.

That's exactly why I started this thread:  https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/ (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/) to encourage people to track their FI progress based on the % of FI income their stash would generate instead of stash sizes.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on December 30, 2023, 10:56:42 PM

We spent a lot over the last few months getting a number of health and safety-related improvements to our home plus some significant charitable giving.   We had just gotten over the $4M NW mark.  Now we're $70K below it, but we'll be well over it next month when the last of my wife's inheritance comes in.  And all the big expenses are already paid for.   

Can't take credit for it, just luck on that bit. 

We could afford it either way but it was easier to make ourselves spend the "extra" money rather than our regular stash.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: weebs on December 31, 2023, 05:33:03 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 30, 2023, 05:01:00 PM

At 4%, the required additional NW to make that $100k is about $2.5M (assuming I lived to 100 years). Now you would have to do a net present value calculation to determine what the lump sump value of that pension is but in reality its meaningless.

Totally agree.  I'm focused on the combined monthly income of our pensions and give zero craps about the lump sum values.

Quote from: Bateaux on December 30, 2023, 06:25:33 PM

I hope to enjoy adventure sports for a while to come.

That's my plan..minus the snakes and gators.  ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 31, 2023, 05:53:16 AM

As someone with a pension starting mid 2025.  Mt goal is to keep basic living expenses below the Pension amount, everything else is fluff foe life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on December 31, 2023, 07:09:45 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 30, 2023, 09:29:32 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 30, 2023, 05:01:00 PM

This brings up an interesting point (to me at least). in that why do we focus on the size of the stash but we don't focus on how much income that stash will generate.

That's exactly why I started this thread:  https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/ (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/) to encourage people to track their FI progress based on the % of FI income their stash would generate instead of stash sizes.

Most difficult thing for us is figuring out how much we will really spend over the next 40-50 years. Our current spend is so high because of tuition and other kid costs. But in 8-10 years when they are hopefully fully independent what will it be? What will healthcare cost just the two of us if DH finally joins me in RE? How many home repairs or renovations do we have left to do? Or maybe we should move? Anyway, you get my point. That’s why I’m not sure if we are at 90%, 100%, or 110%.
At some point I think we have to agree that $4M has to be enough. It really can’t be possible to need more than that in middle America.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on December 31, 2023, 11:46:31 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on December 31, 2023, 07:09:45 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 30, 2023, 09:29:32 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 30, 2023, 05:01:00 PM

This brings up an interesting point (to me at least). in that why do we focus on the size of the stash but we don't focus on how much income that stash will generate.

That's exactly why I started this thread:  https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/ (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/) to encourage people to track their FI progress based on the % of FI income their stash would generate instead of stash sizes.

Most difficult thing for us is figuring out how much we will really spend over the next 40-50 years. Our current spend is so high because of tuition and other kid costs. But in 8-10 years when they are hopefully fully independent what will it be? What will healthcare cost just the two of us if DH finally joins me in RE? How many home repairs or renovations do we have left to do? Or maybe we should move? Anyway, you get my point. That’s why I’m not sure if we are at 90%, 100%, or 110%.
At some point I think we have to agree that $4M has to be enough. It really can’t be possible to need more than that in middle America.

Exactly.. I find myself worrying about RMDs in 13 years time.. Like who cares?

Somehow I think around the $4M mark (or the income equivalent of) is a bit like that scene in the Matrix when Keanu suddenly realises that everything (money in our case) is just data and ultimately meaningless, at least it is as long you don't go buy a new yacht every week.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: JGS1980 on December 31, 2023, 12:07:10 PM

Quote from: JGS1980 on July 01, 2023, 02:38:08 PM

Quote from: pecunia on July 01, 2023, 11:46:37 AM

Quote from: JGS1980 on July 01, 2023, 06:59:51 AM

Quarterly Update:
July-20    $1,128,599 (+197,143)
Oct-20     $1,233,581 (+104,981) *Milestone reached -over 1 million in liquid investments.
Jan-21     $1,468,865 (+235,284 for the quarter, +374,258 for the year))
April-21   $1,594,119 (+125,254)
July-21    $1,714,855 (+120,736)
Oct-21     $1,729,455 (+14,599)
Jan-22     $1,920,469 (+191,014 for the quarter, +451,604 for the year)
April-22   $1,864,657 (-$55,812)
July-22    $1,680,190 (-184,167)
Oct-22     *Did Not Calculate
Jan-23     $1,821,385 (DNC)
April-23   $1,953,913 (+132,528) *Milestone -over 1.5 million liquid
July-23    $2,092,670 (+138,757) ***Sabbatical Time***

Proud to join this illustrious race/club. Been enjoying the musings here for years. I'm not really racing at this point, however, as I just quit my job yesterday and am now officially on sabbatical. Not quite FAT-FIRED, more like COAST FIRED right now, which is fine by me. Thanks everyone here for all the motivation and insight over the years. This community is a priceless resource.

JGS

If I had known about sabbatical years ago, I may have continued my education.  My older brother became a professor.  Quite a number of years back he told me he was taking the next year as a sabbatical.  I asked him, "What's that?"  Then he told me and I replied, "You've got to be kidding."  Enjoy your long reprieve.  With your savings, you may not need to go back.

Not a real sabbatical. More like I quit my job and don't plan to work for at least 6 months. But I prefer to call it a sabbatical as people find that to be a more reassuring concept. Either way, I plan to rest my brain and body a bit.

End of year update:

So I didn't work for 6 months... and it was glorious. Traveled for 60 days. Completed all the home projects I never had time to do before. Rested my body and my mind. Focused on doing nothing intentionally as well. Read a bunch of books. Reconnected with my spouse in new ways. Meanwhile, net worth went UP about 100K. Compound interest is a mind bender, really.

Sabbatical over, I'm headed back to work 4 days a week on Tuesday. I only committed to 6 months, and we will see how it goes. I think I'm hungry right now, but we will see if that lasts.

Keep on coming with all the input above. I may not be posting as much of late, but every now and then I get online and enjoy these stories and update.

JGS

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on December 31, 2023, 12:47:48 PM

Year end update. $3.1, up from prior year’s amount several hundred thousand. My take home free taxes and saving in 401(k) was $47K. We have two to three more years left on the “wallet years” until the youngest graduates from college. I would like to be moved to CA sooner rather than later, but interest rates are throwing a wrench in those plans. I’m spending today reading Pathfinders. Funny enough, I drive a 2018 Pathfinder. I may want to change my handle to couponFInder.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Midwest_Handlebar on December 31, 2023, 01:21:48 PM

We're @ $2.4M, up $400k this year, even though I quit in May. This has been bizarrely consistent for the past 3 years. Believe we'll hit the "beyond" territory in another 3 years as I optimize our rentals, and have a planned "liquidity event".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: iris lily on December 31, 2023, 04:28:21 PM

Today we completed our annual asset review and are back up a number in the 2 comma place.

Edited to make sense, and we crossed over the $3 million mark again, after dipping down last year.

Because we have been doing a gut renovation on an old house over the past two years, a LOT of cash went out and we were bouncing over and under the $3 million line.

 This is a project where we will end ip with more $ in this house than we will ever get out of it.  But that’s fine. We knew that going into the project, it didn’t matter.

I am also dedicated to giving larger charitable donations in upcoming years and so, if our net worth drops I am prepared to be ok with that.

P.s. we have been retired 9 years. Doesnt seem that long!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: iris lily on December 31, 2023, 04:37:17 PM

Quote from: dividendman on July 18, 2023, 10:19:55 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on July 17, 2023, 03:14:56 PM

I’m not sure of the answer or why but from my experience those with generational wealth are often more frugal than those who started out poor. I’m generalizing of course.
I think kids just pick up the values of the house to some degree.
I know in our house we do absolutely ZERO recreational shopping. We only go to a store if we need something. And we often buy used. So the thought of going into a store and buying something new, that you don’t need, for no other reason other than you just want it really hasn’t occurred to my boys yet.
I think they don’t want for much because they don’t see their parents wanting much.

I don't know why I found this so funny. Recreational shopping... haha. Really? That people do this is incredible, but I know it happens a lot.

I think recreational shopping is happening less often tho. At least, happening less in standard shopping malls.

Ladies who lunch and go antique shopping are still a thing, or lunch and visit enclaves of dumb little shoppes full o’ twee crap you don’t need.

I live in a tourist town where the twee shoppes thrive. And all of the crap in those stores are mass produced in China,so what is the point of it?

But I will confwss to antique shopping. I always have a list of things I am hunting.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on December 31, 2023, 05:12:10 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 29, 2023, 02:40:52 PM

ACA is 100% not a factor for me.  I will never be on an ACA plan.  That is the personal for me.  Mainly I’m giving an example of how not paying off the mortgage is good for me, as you are using your mortgage payoff as a good for you.

I'm curious about the part where you will "never be on an ACA plan".  particularly what you would do if you weren't able to get any other insurance coverage? 
****
To be clear, I don't care about and do not want to hear about any political opinions.   Thank you
****
But are you aware that in some places, if you're self-employed, the only option is to purchase private insurance through the ACA marketplace?  I won't go into what a godsend that was for me, even allowing me to start a business and retire early, but I am interested to know what you would do in that situation? 
Are you aware that as an ACA member, I have the same Carefirst BCBS as everyone else in my location? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 31, 2023, 11:36:57 PM

Quote from: BlueHouse on December 31, 2023, 05:12:10 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 29, 2023, 02:40:52 PM

ACA is 100% not a factor for me.  I will never be on an ACA plan.  That is the personal for me.  Mainly I’m giving an example of how not paying off the mortgage is good for me, as you are using your mortgage payoff as a good for you.

I'm curious about the part where you will "never be on an ACA plan".  particularly what you would do if you weren't able to get any other insurance coverage? 
****
To be clear, I don't care about and do not want to hear about any political opinions.   Thank you
****
But are you aware that in some places, if you're self-employed, the only option is to purchase private insurance through the ACA marketplace?  I won't go into what a godsend that was for me, even allowing me to start a business and retire early, but I am interested to know what you would do in that situation? 
Are you aware that as an ACA member, I have the same Carefirst BCBS as everyone else in my location?

Because I will always be covered under the Federal Employees Health Benefits.  As in I have work provided benefits after I retire.  No politics involved at all.

ETA:  even if congress votes away my retiree health coverage, my pension income will put me above the 400% for a single person to be eligible for the ACA.  So basically income and the ACA is again never a factor.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: libertarian4321 on January 01, 2024, 01:59:09 AM

We hit $10M shortly before Christmas.  Seemed pretty cool to finally get there after all these years, so we celebrated with a movie and a fancy dinner at Longhorn Steakhouse.  Spent well over $100, partying like rockstars.

Then we hit the library on the way home and borrowed some free books and DVDs. 

Unfortunately, we paid out a lot of EOY charitable contributions last week and are probably around $9.9M now.

We hope to hit $10M this year!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 01, 2024, 06:44:10 AM

Quote from: libertarian4321 on January 01, 2024, 01:59:09 AM

We hit $10M shortly before Christmas.  Seemed pretty cool to finally get there after all these years, so we celebrated with a movie and a fancy dinner at Longhorn Steakhouse.  Spent well over $100, partying like rockstars.

Then we hit the library on the way home and borrowed some free books and DVDs. 

Unfortunately, we paid out a lot of EOY charitable contributions last week and are probably around $9.9M now.

We hope to hit $10M this year!

Wow, thats a big number.  I was to $4.9M in Nov 2021 and prematurely celebrating $5M but put money into some riverfront retirement property, and my investments have definitely recovered slower from the 2022 drop than the S&P500, so I'm just now getting back up to $4.7M.  Hoping to hit the $5M in 2024.  I'll have 2 in college so that'll draw down the 529s faster, but then the oldest will be graduated at the end of the year.  I am currently very lucky to have a 20 hr/wk from home challenging and well paying job which I prefer over not working for now as I'm still locked into home base for a few more years anyway with one more kid in high school and a spouse with a few more years on her big work project I know I could not convince her to leave.  This job sometimes seems tenuous so just working on my terms for as long as everyone is happy with the situation.  I have my investments set up like I want them for when I do retire fully, as I thought I would be a year ago before this downshifting option came along, so whenever I or they decide its not working out it'll be a easy transition.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 01, 2024, 09:47:10 PM

Quote from: libertarian4321 on January 01, 2024, 01:59:09 AM

We hit $10M shortly before Christmas.  Seemed pretty cool to finally get there after all these years, so we celebrated with a movie and a fancy dinner at Longhorn Steakhouse.  Spent well over $100, partying like rockstars.

Then we hit the library on the way home and borrowed some free books and DVDs. 

Unfortunately, we paid out a lot of EOY charitable contributions last week and are probably around $9.9M now.

We hope to hit $10M this year!

Dayum!... I hope you live for another 50 years otherwise I might suggest you worked a tad too long before retiring..:)

Well done!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 01, 2024, 09:51:44 PM

2023 yielded some good financial numbers for us - the numbers are so good in fact, that when I did the 3Q23 financial assessment, I didn't realize that I had left out the $600k in my sweetie's (vested) cash balance pension accounts, and I didn't catch the mistake until doing 4Q23's... we're not quite at libertarian4321's lofty totals, but not that far behind...

Unfortunately, I don't know if there's a number big enough to get my sweetie to stop working.  She happens to like what she does, and she finds it hard to turn off the firehose of cash they keep aiming at her. I don't think there's a 'number' that will motivate her to quit as long as she's getting satisfaction from the work, which is a bummer for me as I'm FIREd and I'd love to do my traveling with her instead of alone or with other friends.  (At least she's very okay with me venturing off without her.)

Remembering those cash balance accounts did raise a financial issue though - we are probably underweight equities despite the market's recovery. We're at about 50% equities, 40% in variations of FI (muni funds, money market, treasuries, bond funds as part of target date funds, deferred comp accounts, savings accounts, and those cash balance pension accounts), and 10% home equity.  We changed my sweetie's future 401(k) contributions to equity-only ETFs (from TDFs) and are reinvesting dividends, but will also probably also move $200k out of savings into international equities to further address the issue.  (We're also overweight US so that will kill two birds with one check.)

Lots of good travel happened this year and lots more is planned for 2024 - in 2023 I got to Chile, the Baltics (Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia), did hiking in the three US national parks in Washington State, visited Yorkshire, got up to NYC a few times to meet up with friends as well as to see some of the US Open tennis, toured Korea, and finished up the year with a holiday visit to Seattle.  I was looking at a trip to Guatemala this January, but I've been called for jury duty so the 2024 travel will probably start with a month in New Zealand from mid-February to mid-March (it will include hiking the Milford, Kepler, and Routeburn tracks)... followed by Indonesia (visiting a friend in Jogjakarta, then onward to Sumatra and Sulawesi) in April, Bulgaria and Albania in May, Great Basin and Capital Reef NPs in July, Tanzania and Kenya in August, Hunan (China) in October, and Costa Rica in December!

Wishing everyone peace, love, and happiness in the new year.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 02, 2024, 03:59:18 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 01, 2024, 09:51:44 PM

Unfortunately, I don't know if there's a number big enough to get my sweetie to stop working.  She happens to like what she does, and she finds it hard to turn off the firehose of cash they keep throwing at her. I don't think there's a 'number' that will motivate her to quit as long as she's getting satisfaction from the work, which is a bummer for me as I'm FIREd and I'd love to do my traveling with her instead of alone or with other friends.  (At least she's very okay with me venturing off without her.)

Wow - very similar situation prevails in my household 😀 I am extremely happy to be retired but my wife enjoys her job has no intention of retiring just yet. And similar to your situation, they throw a lot of money at my wife too.

The main difference is that, while I do enjoy travel, my happiness mainly comes from working on my model trains either at home or at my train club. I just spent two enjoyable months building a new train control software framework - finally got it running yesterday! So I don't really need a lot of travel to keep me satisfied.

That said, we did manage to have a few memorable vacations in 2023. We don't travel a lot but when we do, it's in luxury. We did two big trips including one to Asia on Emirates in business class - we enjoyed drinks in the bar on the upper deck bar of the A380. Of course, the real luxury is not having to return to work after a trip.

I just compiled our 2023 expenses from Quicken where I track expenses and found that we had spent about $32k on travel. I just did a quick calculation and found that even with such a lavish travel budget, our savings are over 60X in terms of expenses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 02, 2024, 07:32:07 AM

As I was making my yearly Backdoor Roth and HSA investments yesterday, I looked back at the financial plan that I had drawn up when I was deciding between getting a modest mortgage and paying cash for a home in 2017.  I discovered that over the past 6 years, my net worth has basically gone up the same amount as I’ve earned over those year.  Compounding is great.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 02, 2024, 08:04:52 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 02, 2024, 03:59:18 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 01, 2024, 09:51:44 PM

Unfortunately, I don't know if there's a number big enough to get my sweetie to stop working.  She happens to like what she does, and she finds it hard to turn off the firehose of cash they keep throwing at her. I don't think there's a 'number' that will motivate her to quit as long as she's getting satisfaction from the work, which is a bummer for me as I'm FIREd and I'd love to do my traveling with her instead of alone or with other friends.  (At least she's very okay with me venturing off without her.)

Wow - very similar situation prevails in my household 😀 I am extremely happy to be retired but my wife enjoys her job has no intention of retiring just yet. And similar to your situation, they throw a lot of money at my wife too.

The main difference is that, while I do enjoy travel, my happiness mainly comes from working on my model trains either at home or at my train club. I just spent two enjoyable months building a new train control software framework - finally got it running yesterday! So I don't really need a lot of travel to keep me satisfied.

That said, we did manage to have a few memorable vacations in 2023. We don't travel a lot but when we do, it's in luxury. We did two big trips including one to Asia on Emirates in business class - we enjoyed drinks in the bar on the upper deck bar of the A380. Of course, the real luxury is not having to return to work after a trip.

I just compiled our 2023 expenses from Quicken where I track expenses and found that we had spent about $32k on travel. I just did a quick calculation and found that even with such a lavish travel budget, our savings are over 60X in terms of expenses.

For me, 'luxury' travel is not sleeping on a cement bench outside the Honolulu airport on a 20 hour layover but paying to stay at a hotel in Honolulu instead... and I still can't bring myself to do it, despite having the $pineapples to do so.

Actually, I did bump up my (individual) travel budget last year from $15k to $23k. I wanted to both account for inflationary effects as well as to allow myself to splurge a bit. However, I actually spent around my usual $15k (plus another $5k or so for my sweetie's travels) anyway.   I wound up traveling with friends more than anticipated (cutting accommodation and car rental costs) and did one less trip than I had planned, but the bigger factor is that I really find it tough to spend more than I really need to... I suppose that's a good thing, although my back and hips must have disagreed after that night on that bench...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 02, 2024, 08:10:57 AM

Quote from: arcturus on December 30, 2023, 08:27:43 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on December 29, 2023, 02:04:40 PM

Quote from: arcturus on December 29, 2023, 10:15:46 AM

In the spirit of moving to other topics, November and December have certainly been a breath of fresh air -- have they not?   Allowing me to close the year at ~$2.6 invested and ~$3.2 with home equity (may still be slightly conservative on the home equity estimate in this crazy RE market, where pricing your home seems to be more art than science).  When I look back at my annual goals, I am almost exactly 1 year behind now.  But given the depth of 2022, I'll take it for sure and its better than I would have anticipated.   

I trust that everyone on this thread has also had some really positive moves over the past 2 months....here's to continued positive movement in 2024!

Yep...the stock market moves over the last couple months have been nothing short of extraordinary, especially since many didn't expect it.  JPOW's hint of rate cuts were a face punch to the bears.  Since yields should be dropping next year, our holdings in Vanguard Wellesley should be well positioned as well.

I also actively trade stocks, which I'll admit isn't for the feint of heart.  However, it is a side gig hobby for me at this point, and I hit "multi baggers" in a couple holdings ( ALT for one ).   

All in all, this boosted us up to around 3.4 invested...and around 3.9 including the paid off house.   Just about at the "and beyond" threshold!

Good for you @farmecologist -- almost to "and Beyond."   Just looked at the stock chart for ALT -- wow.  That's like a 5-6 bagger, depending on your timing.   I've sworn off stock picking (for now :-)),  but am concerned about how concentrated I am getting in the Big 5-7 tech companies based on my index funds.  Have started to move some of the retirement funds (to avoid capital gains) into value and equal weighted index funds to try to balance things out a bit.   Hope your success continues in 2024!

Thanks! Trust me...I have had plenty of stock trading failures as well.  I treat those as learning moments...and there is a LOT to learn.  Thankfully, so far the big winners have vastly outweighed the losers.   I can also "tax loss harvest" the losers as well ( but losses are never a good thing )...haha. 

Stock trading is all about detachment of emotion from your trades...that takes a very long time to learn, and why many of us fail ( especially when starting out ).  You are also battling machine algos, afterall.  I think of it similar to "the terminator" movies...the little guy against "skynet"! 

This is why we are pretty conservative with our 401k funds ( vanguard Wellesley Admiral, etc.. ).  Overall, we have a pretty good stock/bond/cash mix at this point. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 02, 2024, 09:13:11 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 02, 2024, 08:04:52 AM

For me, 'luxury' travel is not sleeping on a cement bench outside the Honolulu airport on a 20 hour layover but paying to stay at a hotel in Honolulu instead... and I still can't bring myself to do it, despite having the $pineapples to do so.

I will not deny it - I like having a chauffeur waiting with a placard with my name on it when I arrive at a new airport :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 02, 2024, 09:22:07 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 02, 2024, 09:13:11 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 02, 2024, 08:04:52 AM

For me, 'luxury' travel is not sleeping on a cement bench outside the Honolulu airport on a 20 hour layover but paying to stay at a hotel in Honolulu instead... and I still can't bring myself to do it, despite having the $pineapples to do so.

I will not deny it - I like having a chauffeur waiting with a placard with my name on it when I arrive at a new airport :-)

I like pretending to be a chauffeur when meeting friends arriving at an airport, holding up a sign like 'Latvian Flatulence Society Welcomes _______'

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on January 02, 2024, 09:23:38 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on December 31, 2023, 07:09:45 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 30, 2023, 09:29:32 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 30, 2023, 05:01:00 PM

This brings up an interesting point (to me at least). in that why do we focus on the size of the stash but we don't focus on how much income that stash will generate.

That's exactly why I started this thread:  https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/ (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/) to encourage people to track their FI progress based on the % of FI income their stash would generate instead of stash sizes.

Most difficult thing for us is figuring out how much we will really spend over the next 40-50 years. Our current spend is so high because of tuition and other kid costs. But in 8-10 years when they are hopefully fully independent what will it be? What will healthcare cost just the two of us if DH finally joins me in RE? How many home repairs or renovations do we have left to do? Or maybe we should move? Anyway, you get my point. That’s why I’m not sure if we are at 90%, 100%, or 110%.
At some point I think we have to agree that $4M has to be enough. It really can’t be possible to need more than that in middle America.

I'm in a similar situation @BeanCounter, although it sounds like I may be a bit further along in getting on the other side of most of the kid costs (hopefully, although as I write this I am still in that "transition" phase for 2 of mine, where they are not yet independent but you hope that they will be within 12 months or so).   The real estate / move question is one of the most unsettled ones for me as well.   Perhaps 2024 will bring some clarity to that, if the real estate market begins to stabilize and inventory begins to appear.  And agree with you on the $4M point, if you're in a moderate / average COL location -- it seems like it has to be enough.

OTOH, I read with great interest posts like those above from @Bateaux , @jeroly , @JGS1980 on their travel adventures, and I must confess this is an item that I have been reflecting on regrading my earlier mention of "retiring to" something rather than "retiring from" something.  And I do have concerns that I may be under-budgeted for travel during retirement.    But I think at some point you just need to pull the trigger and make it work.   So I would say these are my three biggest open factors right now (real estate / mortgage, travel, ticking clock) as I think about whether my target is 2025 or 2026.  Going to see what happens in 2024 and go from there.

Happy new year to all and wish you all health, happiness and peace in 2024.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 02, 2024, 11:47:24 AM

Quote from: arcturus on January 02, 2024, 09:23:38 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on December 31, 2023, 07:09:45 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on December 30, 2023, 09:29:32 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on December 30, 2023, 05:01:00 PM

This brings up an interesting point (to me at least). in that why do we focus on the size of the stash but we don't focus on how much income that stash will generate.

That's exactly why I started this thread:  https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/ (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/) to encourage people to track their FI progress based on the % of FI income their stash would generate instead of stash sizes.

Most difficult thing for us is figuring out how much we will really spend over the next 40-50 years. Our current spend is so high because of tuition and other kid costs. But in 8-10 years when they are hopefully fully independent what will it be? What will healthcare cost just the two of us if DH finally joins me in RE? How many home repairs or renovations do we have left to do? Or maybe we should move? Anyway, you get my point. That’s why I’m not sure if we are at 90%, 100%, or 110%.
At some point I think we have to agree that $4M has to be enough. It really can’t be possible to need more than that in middle America.

I'm in a similar situation @BeanCounter, although it sounds like I may be a bit further along in getting on the other side of most of the kid costs (hopefully, although as I write this I am still in that "transition" phase for 2 of mine, where they are not yet independent but you hope that they will be within 12 months or so).   The real estate / move question is one of the most unsettled ones for me as well.   Perhaps 2024 will bring some clarity to that, if the real estate market begins to stabilize and inventory begins to appear.  And agree with you on the $4M point, if you're in a moderate / average COL location -- it seems like it has to be enough.

OTOH, I read with great interest posts like those above from @Bateaux , @jeroly , @JGS1980 on their travel adventures, and I must confess this is an item that I have been reflecting on regrading my earlier mention of "retiring to" something rather than "retiring from" something.  And I do have concerns that I may be under-budgeted for travel during retirement.    But I think at some point you just need to pull the trigger and make it work.   So I would say these are my three biggest open factors right now (real estate / mortgage, travel, ticking clock) as I think about whether my target is 2025 or 2026.  Going to see what happens in 2024 and go from there.

Happy new year to all and wish you all health, happiness and peace in 2024.

Similar situation here as well.  However, this will be the LAST semester of college costs for both kids.  Kid #1 is graduating with a masters degree and will get a job.  Kid #2 is graduating undergrad with a double major ( physics and astrophysics ).  We are hoping he can land a fully paid grad school gig.  If not, he will get a job as well.

We have the travel bug as well.  However, we have kind on splurged on a couple Viking cruises ( a river cruise last summer and an upcoming transatlantic in April ).  Yes...I'm sorry to say that we have a bit of a "luxury travel" bug.  Don't hate me...haha.  However, Viking does run free international airfare and beverage package deals every now and then, which if you snag it makes the per-day cost relatively "reasonable".   I never have really liked cruises when we did them on more traditional lines....but Viking really is a huge step above any other cruise line we have experienced ( small ships, no kids, only balcony rooms, etc... ).  The odd thing is that Viking passengers lean older, and we are usually one of the younger couples on the ship, but that is fine with us.  Older travelers often seem to be more laid back than many younger folks do..at least on Viking.  Some of them are amazingly fit for their age as well, believe it or not.

We also like non-luxury travel as well though, and I foresee that being the bulk of our travel in retirement.

As for work, don't get me started.  Not sure how much more I can take of my tech megacorp after 30+ years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LoanShark on January 02, 2024, 02:48:50 PM

Quote from: LoanShark on January 02, 2022, 11:12:56 AM

Quote from: LoanShark on February 15, 2021, 11:08:22 AM

Quote from: LoanShark on February 05, 2021, 10:59:39 AM

         Liquid / TNW
12/17 $391k / $911k
12/18 $485k / $1.15M
12/19 $979k / $1.54M
12/20 $1.35M / $1.93M

2/21 $1.55M / $2.14M

Joining this thread and looking forward to the journey to $4M...and Beyond with you guys & gals!

Year end update:

12/21 $2.0M / $2.8M

Officially hit $2MM liquid!

Feels amazing as that # was my original "FI" value. I've since moved that to $2.5MM to throw off $100k annually, pre-tax. We've never spent that much but our budget allows for ~$75-80k of spend annual, so I felt that I needed to gross it up to account for taxes.

If we do nothing, and the market holds up at ~8% annually, we should hit $2.5MM in <3-years. We'll see what happens then, but it's starting to feel very real. Like this is actually going to happen...especially considering that we can kind of let this thing run on auto-pilot from a contribution perspective and it'll happen in the near term (in all likelihood, at least).

We'll have to do some soul searching then to decide if DW, or both of us, will want to hang it up. Maybe we're SWAMI's? Who knows. Cross that bridge when it gets here!

Year end update:

12/23 $2.7M / $3.5M

We hit our FI #! Feels weird to read what I wrote 2 years ago and see it come to fruition. For now we're just SWAMI's. DW has a few years until she's fully vested in a pension (not included in our #s above). I have to say, it feels great to be working for "sport" vs "having" to.

More soul searching to come!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BlueHouse on January 04, 2024, 07:33:45 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 31, 2023, 11:36:57 PM

Quote from: BlueHouse on December 31, 2023, 05:12:10 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on December 29, 2023, 02:40:52 PM

ACA is 100% not a factor for me.  I will never be on an ACA plan.  That is the personal for me.  Mainly I’m giving an example of how not paying off the mortgage is good for me, as you are using your mortgage payoff as a good for you.

I'm curious about the part where you will "never be on an ACA plan".  particularly what you would do if you weren't able to get any other insurance coverage? 
****
To be clear, I don't care about and do not want to hear about any political opinions.   Thank you
****
But are you aware that in some places, if you're self-employed, the only option is to purchase private insurance through the ACA marketplace?  I won't go into what a godsend that was for me, even allowing me to start a business and retire early, but I am interested to know what you would do in that situation? 
Are you aware that as an ACA member, I have the same Carefirst BCBS as everyone else in my location?

Because I will always be covered under the Federal Employees Health Benefits.  As in I have work provided benefits after I retire.  No politics involved at all.

ETA:  even if congress votes away my retiree health coverage, my pension income will put me above the 400% for a single person to be eligible for the ACA.  So basically income and the ACA is again never a factor.

Ah, thanks for the response.  When you said "this is personal for me", I completely misunderstood. 
Healthcare for me is probably my biggest concern for the next 10 years (until I'm medicare eligible), and I fret over the political jousting every year.  So I'm highly jealous of your situation.  All the best!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Shuchong on January 06, 2024, 06:18:12 PM

Since ACA is coming up as a topic:  I realized that my taxable brokerage account paid enough in dividends this year to keep me on an ACA plan and off of medicaid.  That's despite it being in total stock market and total international index funds (so not optimized for dividends). 

That was a fun new milestone for me, since if I ever do FIRE, ACA will be part of the plan. 

Also, this was the first year that I thought hmmm... if the market keeps cooperating, in a few more years I might be close to living off dividends and interest alone.  I'm uber conservative and have health issues that would make it difficult to find a job comparable to what I have now, but if I can account for all my annual expenses with dividends, that has to be enough to quit working. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 07, 2024, 06:37:13 AM

Quote from: Shuchong on January 06, 2024, 06:18:12 PM

Since ACA is coming up as a topic:  I realized that my taxable brokerage account paid enough in dividends this year to keep me on an ACA plan and off of medicaid.  That's despite it being in total stock market and total international index funds (so not optimized for dividends). 

That was a fun new milestone for me, since if I ever do FIRE, ACA will be part of the plan. 

Also, this was the first year that I thought hmmm... if the market keeps cooperating, in a few more years I might be close to living off dividends and interest alone.  I'm uber conservative and have health issues that would make it difficult to find a job comparable to what I have now, but if I can account for all my annual expenses with dividends, that has to be enough to quit working.

I did notice my dividends, interest, and end of year distributions this year was for the first time enough to cover my spending after what I expect to receive in SS, but that will not be for 15 years or so not quite as exciting, but if my portfolio holds.up I guess I'll get there.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 09, 2024, 02:19:05 AM

Florida Trail update. Tuesday the 2nd I worked a full shift. I drove home and shortly after got on the road for the 600 mile drive to the Florida home. Got there Wednesday morning slept, did yard work, unpacked the truck of things moved from Louisiana. Thursday morning I rode my bicycle to Enterprise to rent a car. I had picked cheapest one way to Miami. They gave me a BMW SUV. That car is incredible. Dropped off the bicycle and loaded my backpack. I drove down to Miami International to turn in the car and get picked up by a shuttle along with another hiker flying in from Arizona. We camped that night at a campground in the Everglades. Friday morning we were dropped off at the trail at Big Cypress Preserve. We hit the trail dry at first and then almost endless swamp. I spent 4 days and 3 nights crossing the 30 plus miles of Everglades. I've never been so exhausted hiking. The water was generally knee deep, but at times waist deep. You camp on tiny island barely out of the water. The ground seeps water and nothing is dry. Saturday night heavy rain and winds hit early. I sheltered in my tent for 14 hours without getting out. I packed up and walked in the rain Sunday. Monday morning I packed up and hiked out to Alligator Alley Interstate 75. I called a friend who lives about an hour away for some relief from the conditions. The mosquitoes are demonic. I'm pretty busted up and need to get my skin dry for a while. Lots of bruises and abrasions. We went out for Italian food and I loved it. I needed to replenish with real food and not just what I was carrying. I'm at their home now and in a dry bed. Nothing is more valuable than friends.
I'll be back on trail soon. My 55 year old body gave what was needed to cross over 30 miles of swamp. Now I'm relaxing and resting it a bit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 09, 2024, 07:22:13 AM

People think I'm crazy when I tell them I'm excited for this half marathon coming up this weekend, but you've got me beat hands down @Bateaux !

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on January 09, 2024, 10:40:44 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 09, 2024, 02:19:05 AM

Florida Trail update. Tuesday the 2nd I worked a full shift. I drove home and shortly after got on the road for the 600 mile drive to the Florida home. Got there Wednesday morning slept, did yard work, unpacked the truck of things moved from Louisiana. Thursday morning I rode my bicycle to Enterprise to rent a car. I had picked cheapest one way to Miami. They gave me a BMW SUV. That car is incredible. Dropped off the bicycle and loaded my backpack. I drove down to Miami International to turn in the car and get picked up by a shuttle along with another hiker flying in from Arizona. We camped that night at a campground in the Everglades. Friday morning we were dropped off at the trail at Big Cypress Preserve. We hit the trail dry at first and then almost endless swamp. I spent 4 days and 3 nights crossing the 30 plus miles of Everglades. I've never been so exhausted hiking. The water was generally knee deep, but at times waist deep. You camp on tiny island barely out of the water. The ground seeps water and nothing is dry. Saturday night heavy rain and winds hit early. I sheltered in my tent for 14 hours without getting out. I packed up and walked in the rain Sunday. Monday morning I packed up and hiked out to Alligator Alley Interstate 75. I called a friend who lives about an hour away for some relief from the conditions. The mosquitoes are demonic. I'm pretty busted up and need to get my skin dry for a while. Lots of bruises and abrasions. We went out for Italian food and I loved it. I needed to replenish with real food and not just what I was carrying. I'm at their home now and in a dry bed. Nothing is more valuable than friends.
I'll be back on trail soon. My 55 year old body gave what was needed to cross over 30 miles of swamp. Now I'm relaxing and resting it a bit.

I think I'll scratch that hike off my bucket list.  LOL  It sounds like you're lucky that nothing ate you down there.  The Darien Gap sounds like more fun than your hike.  Did you see any huge snakes or gaters?  Were you carrying any type of defense for them, and what would that be when you're waist-deep in muck?


Do you carry a SPOT GPS tracker & emergency rescue type device, just in case?  I'd think hiking the Everglades would be the perfect use for one. 


Oh, what did your hiking companion from Arizona do?  Will you continue the hike with him? It doesn't seem like an endeavor that anyone would want to do solo.  "Misery loves company" & "Safety in numbers", etc. 


Your AT hike was really impressive, but seemed more "normal" to me.  We lived near the AT for over 20 years, so that type of terrain is much more familiar and comfortable to me.  I'm intrigued by swamps & the scary critters that dwell in them.  I'd like to explore them by boat, but it never occurred to me that anyone would consider hiking through them.  Your description of it sounds miserable, but there's obviously something that attracted you to do it.  You're great at storytelling, can you describe the positive part of hiking in the swamps that attracted you to go there, and to continue your hike?


Be safe,

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 09, 2024, 11:09:33 AM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on January 09, 2024, 10:40:44 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on January 09, 2024, 02:19:05 AM

Florida Trail update. Tuesday the 2nd I worked a full shift. I drove home and shortly after got on the road for the 600 mile drive to the Florida home. Got there Wednesday morning slept, did yard work, unpacked the truck of things moved from Louisiana. Thursday morning I rode my bicycle to Enterprise to rent a car. I had picked cheapest one way to Miami. They gave me a BMW SUV. That car is incredible. Dropped off the bicycle and loaded my backpack. I drove down to Miami International to turn in the car and get picked up by a shuttle along with another hiker flying in from Arizona. We camped that night at a campground in the Everglades. Friday morning we were dropped off at the trail at Big Cypress Preserve. We hit the trail dry at first and then almost endless swamp. I spent 4 days and 3 nights crossing the 30 plus miles of Everglades. I've never been so exhausted hiking. The water was generally knee deep, but at times waist deep. You camp on tiny island barely out of the water. The ground seeps water and nothing is dry. Saturday night heavy rain and winds hit early. I sheltered in my tent for 14 hours without getting out. I packed up and walked in the rain Sunday. Monday morning I packed up and hiked out to Alligator Alley Interstate 75. I called a friend who lives about an hour away for some relief from the conditions. The mosquitoes are demonic. I'm pretty busted up and need to get my skin dry for a while. Lots of bruises and abrasions. We went out for Italian food and I loved it. I needed to replenish with real food and not just what I was carrying. I'm at their home now and in a dry bed. Nothing is more valuable than friends.
I'll be back on trail soon. My 55 year old body gave what was needed to cross over 30 miles of swamp. Now I'm relaxing and resting it a bit.

I think I'll scratch that hike off my bucket list.  LOL  It sounds like you're lucky that nothing ate you down there.  The Darien Gap sounds like more fun than your hike.  Did you see any huge snakes or gaters?  Were you carrying any type of defense for them, and what would that be when you're waist-deep in muck?


Do you carry a SPOT GPS tracker & emergency rescue type device, just in case?  I'd think hiking the Everglades would be the perfect use for one. 


Oh, what did your hiking companion from Arizona do?  Will you continue the hike with him? It doesn't seem like an endeavor that anyone would want to do solo.  "Misery loves company" & "Safety in numbers", etc. 


Your AT hike was really impressive, but seemed more "normal" to me.  We lived near the AT for over 20 years, so that type of terrain is much more familiar and comfortable to me.  I'm intrigued by swamps & the scary critters that dwell in them.  I'd like to explore them by boat, but it never occurred to me that anyone would consider hiking through them.  Your description of it sounds miserable, but there's obviously something that attracted you to do it.  You're great at storytelling, can you describe the positive part of hiking in the swamps that attracted you to go there, and to continue your hike?


Be safe,

Yikes, @Bateaux, sounds...fun.

I had a similar, but not nearly as miserable, experience in the BWCA a few years ago.  Storm came through the area and all portages were flooded and turned into running streams!  Leeches on legs after walking thru the flooded portages, etc... However, at least we had canoes...lol.   So not nearly as bad as what you encountered.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on January 09, 2024, 02:32:29 PM

Hey guys. I only saw gators at the beginning in a canal by the visitor center in Big Cypress. It was cloudy and rainy a lot of the time. Reptiles hide out in that weather luckily. No snakes that I saw. A 17 foot 198 pound Python was caught there a month or so ago. Made national news. I debated carrying protection and decided it was more liability than what it's worth. Turning the car in I walked through Miami International and will be using churches, fire departments, etc as places to camp. You never know their policy. My protection is a small Swiss Army knife and some dog mace for walking where mean dogs exist. The Eastern Continental Divide Trail starts in Key West and runs into Canada. It's 4400 miles long and I hope to do it all in sections. The Florida Trail including the Everglades is part of it. It was challenging, but after a day of rest I'll be back on tomorrow. I carried a Garmin Mini SOS beacon. There was a hiker in our group that was rescued by swamp buggy and another that turned back after 5 miles. The week before a hiker was hospitalized with a snake bite and another due to extreme dehydration exhaustion. It's not for the weary or first time adventurer. It's definitely possible for any prepared hiker. The Arizona hiker was very strong and quickly made more miles than me. He's very advanced and has hiked all over the world. The trail gets much easier from now and only has short wet sections. I'm waiting out weather at a friends house tonight. There were tornadoes in the panhandle. They will drop me in the morning. I'll update when more interesting things come about.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: iris lily on January 12, 2024, 03:19:37 PM

Quote from: libertarian4321 on January 01, 2024, 01:59:09 AM

We hit $10M shortly before Christmas.  Seemed pretty cool to finally get there after all these years, so we celebrated with a movie and a fancy dinner at Longhorn Steakhouse.  Spent well over $100, partying like rockstars.

Then we hit the library on the way home and borrowed some free books and DVDs. 

Unfortunately, we paid out a lot of EOY charitable contributions last week and are probably around $9.9M now.

We hope to hit $10M this year!

This is when I wish there was a LIKE button. So many things to like in this post.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on January 12, 2024, 05:41:27 PM

Quote from: iris lily on January 12, 2024, 03:19:37 PM

Quote from: libertarian4321 on January 01, 2024, 01:59:09 AM

We hit $10M shortly before Christmas.  Seemed pretty cool to finally get there after all these years, so we celebrated with a movie and a fancy dinner at Longhorn Steakhouse.  Spent well over $100, partying like rockstars.

Then we hit the library on the way home and borrowed some free books and DVDs. 

Unfortunately, we paid out a lot of EOY charitable contributions last week and are probably around $9.9M now.

We hope to hit $10M this year!

This is when I wish there was a LIKE button. So many things to like in this post.

Like/love!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 12, 2024, 06:56:39 PM

Quote from: couponvan on January 12, 2024, 05:41:27 PM

Quote from: iris lily on January 12, 2024, 03:19:37 PM

Quote from: libertarian4321 on January 01, 2024, 01:59:09 AM

We hit $10M shortly before Christmas.  Seemed pretty cool to finally get there after all these years, so we celebrated with a movie and a fancy dinner at Longhorn Steakhouse.  Spent well over $100, partying like rockstars.

Then we hit the library on the way home and borrowed some free books and DVDs. 

Unfortunately, we paid out a lot of EOY charitable contributions last week and are probably around $9.9M now.

We hope to hit $10M this year!

This is when I wish there was a LIKE button. So many things to like in this post.

Like/love!

Nah, mo money = mo problems. I stress out at how the heck I'm going to spend $3M plus the $100k+ per year in pension/SS income.. With $10M I'd have to be making $1M charitable donations to avoid the Nieces and Nephews living on cocaine and caviar!

Good "problem" to have though right?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pasadenafr on January 12, 2024, 07:15:06 PM

I hope y'all won't mind me intruding in your post. I'm far, far from being eligible (you can find me at the bottom of the previous race!) but I do enjoy reading your thread. I feels a bit like I'm a kid watching the adults from behind the glass. Or like I'm watching one of those sci-fi movies where it's an alternate universe but the people are oddly nice and normal.

Anyway, just ignore me gawking, you inspiring people, I'm just posting to follow.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 12, 2024, 07:28:50 PM

Quote from: pasadenafr on January 12, 2024, 07:15:06 PM

I hope y'all won't mind me intruding in your post. I'm far, far from being eligible (you can find me at the bottom of the previous race!) but I do enjoy reading your thread. I feels a bit like I'm a kid watching the adults from behind the glass. Or like I'm watching one of those sci-fi movies where it's an alternate universe but the people are oddly nice and normal.

Anyway, just ignore me gawking, you inspiring people, I'm just posting to follow.

There comes a time when you suddenly realise you've done almost nothing to get to these rarified Net worth levels.. In fact there is no "almost" about it.. it just happens by itself. In my case we now have three times what we had when I first retired some 10 years ago, and honestly I have not contributed that much in those 10 years.

In other words you ask yourself.. HTF did I end up here? By extension, our friend with $10M is not that many years ahead of most of the forum members in this group.

We are apparently nice and normal because we haven't gotten used to our new found wealth.. Heck I should get new richer friends to replace the existing poor ones, but I just haven't found the time..;)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on January 12, 2024, 07:44:39 PM

The millionaire next door does not wear Gucci in these parts….

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pasadenafr on January 12, 2024, 09:22:58 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 12, 2024, 07:28:50 PM

Quote from: pasadenafr on January 12, 2024, 07:15:06 PM

I hope y'all won't mind me intruding in your post. I'm far, far from being eligible (you can find me at the bottom of the previous race!) but I do enjoy reading your thread. I feels a bit like I'm a kid watching the adults from behind the glass. Or like I'm watching one of those sci-fi movies where it's an alternate universe but the people are oddly nice and normal.

Anyway, just ignore me gawking, you inspiring people, I'm just posting to follow.

There comes a time when you suddenly realise you've done almost nothing to get to these rarified Net worth levels.. In fact there is no "almost" about it.. it just happens by itself. In my case we now have three times what we had when I first retired some 10 years ago, and honestly I have not contributed that much in those 10 years.

In other words you ask yourself.. HTF did I end up here? By extension, our friend with $10M is not that many years ahead of most of the forum members in this group.

We are apparently nice and normal because we haven't gotten used to our new found wealth.. Heck I should get new richer friends to replace the existing poor ones, but I just haven't found the time..;)

Indeed, and this is probably one of the reasons why I appreciate this thread so much. It's a nice reprieve from the other ones where all we talk about are numbers (I'm counting myself in this). Nice to see that at some point you can just stop thinking about money, stop living in a spreadsheet and go to the beach. That really is a good end goal.

Quote from: couponvan on January 12, 2024, 07:44:39 PM

The millionaire next door does not wear Gucci in these parts….

And then there's that :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 13, 2024, 06:18:17 AM

After managing to avoid it for more than four years, I finally tested positive for Covid a couple of days ago.

I feel so fortunate to have had access to six vaccinations and a course of Paxlovid (which I started twelve hours after testing positive - I first needed to stop my statin (atorvastatin) for twelve hours before beginning).

I'm managing pretty well so far; there's a minor cough and a runny nose and some aches, but big picture it's all good - good blood oxygen levels, no fever.

I am FIREd so I have no job that's looming for me to get back to ASAP, and in fact the only significant thing on my short term calendar is a jury duty assignment starting on the 23rd that I hope to be well enough by then to attend.  (I have travel plans starting February 15th, but barring major health setbacks that should not be at risk.). So I'm just taking it easy, watching junk on tv...now that it's the holiday weekend, I'll swap my CNBC-watching of the last two days for watching the NFL playoffs.

My sweetie has been the best delivery service, dropping off care packages as well as picking up my Paxlovid prescription.  Since she neither needs to go into her office nor to drive her son to school over the MLK Jr holiday, I'll be on my own for the next three days... but I can DoorDash and Instacart it with the best of them if I need to!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on January 13, 2024, 07:32:30 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 13, 2024, 06:18:17 AM

After managing to avoid it for more than four years, I finally tested positive for Covid a couple of days ago.

I feel so fortunate to have had access to six vaccinations and a course of Paxlovid (which I started twelve hours after testing positive - I first needed to stop my statin (atorvastatin) for twelve hours before beginning).

I'm managing pretty well so far; there's a minor cough and a runny nose and some aches, but big picture it's all good - good blood oxygen levels, no fever.

I am FIREd so I have no job that's looming for me to get back to ASAP, and in fact the only significant thing on my short term calendar is a jury duty assignment starting on the 23rd that I hope to be well enough by then to attend.  (I have travel plans starting February 15th, but barring major health setbacks that should not be at risk.). So I'm just taking it easy, watching junk on tv...now that it's the holiday weekend, I'll swap my CNBC-watching of the last two days for watching the NFL playoffs.

My sweetie has been the best delivery service, dropping off care packages as well as picking up my Paxlovid prescription.  Since she neither needs to go into her office nor to drive her son to school over the MLK Jr holiday, I'll be on my own for the next three days... but I can DoorDash and Instacart it with the best of them if I need to!

Get well soon! I hope COVID is just a mild inconvenience for you.
Money really does make everything easier. When I worked full time I didn’t have time to be sick or take care of myself. I remember Jan of 2019 taking 20 minutes to go downstairs from my office and visit our clinic. Then finding out I had bronchitis. Getting my scripts filled and walking right back upstairs to my desk to keep working. I was sick as could be but the fiscal year had to be closed!
So stupid.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on January 13, 2024, 07:39:07 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 12, 2024, 07:28:50 PM

Quote from: pasadenafr on January 12, 2024, 07:15:06 PM

I hope y'all won't mind me intruding in your post. I'm far, far from being eligible (you can find me at the bottom of the previous race!) but I do enjoy reading your thread. I feels a bit like I'm a kid watching the adults from behind the glass. Or like I'm watching one of those sci-fi movies where it's an alternate universe but the people are oddly nice and normal.

Anyway, just ignore me gawking, you inspiring people, I'm just posting to follow.

There comes a time when you suddenly realise you've done almost nothing to get to these rarified Net worth levels.. In fact there is no "almost" about it.. it just happens by itself. In my case we now have three times what we had when I first retired some 10 years ago, and honestly I have not contributed that much in those 10 years.

In other words you ask yourself.. HTF did I end up here? By extension, our friend with $10M is not that many years ahead of most of the forum members in this group.

We are apparently nice and normal because we haven't gotten used to our new found wealth.. Heck I should get new richer friends to replace the existing poor ones, but I just haven't found the time..;)

I don’t feel comfortable at all when thinking about having a $10M balance.
I’ve always been against having a trust but if our balance got that big I might think about setting up some kind of perpetual family trust that would provide income to heirs. Anybody done this?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on January 13, 2024, 08:56:42 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 12, 2024, 06:56:39 PM

Quote from: couponvan on January 12, 2024, 05:41:27 PM

Quote from: iris lily on January 12, 2024, 03:19:37 PM

Quote from: libertarian4321 on January 01, 2024, 01:59:09 AM

We hit $10M shortly before Christmas.  Seemed pretty cool to finally get there after all these years, so we celebrated with a movie and a fancy dinner at Longhorn Steakhouse.  Spent well over $100, partying like rockstars.

Then we hit the library on the way home and borrowed some free books and DVDs. 

Unfortunately, we paid out a lot of EOY charitable contributions last week and are probably around $9.9M now.

We hope to hit $10M this year!

This is when I wish there was a LIKE button. So many things to like in this post.

Like/love!

Nah, mo money = mo problems. I stress out at how the heck I'm going to spend $3M plus the $100k+ per year in pension/SS income.. With $10M I'd have to be making $1M charitable donations to avoid the Nieces and Nephews living on cocaine and caviar!

Good "problem" to have though right?

I figure if we ever get to beyond, philanthropy will increase significantly. We simply won't get to $10M in today's dollars.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 13, 2024, 02:48:27 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 12, 2024, 06:56:39 PM

Quote from: couponvan on January 12, 2024, 05:41:27 PM

Quote from: iris lily on January 12, 2024, 03:19:37 PM

Quote from: libertarian4321 on January 01, 2024, 01:59:09 AM

We hit $10M shortly before Christmas.  Seemed pretty cool to finally get there after all these years, so we celebrated with a movie and a fancy dinner at Longhorn Steakhouse.  Spent well over $100, partying like rockstars.

Then we hit the library on the way home and borrowed some free books and DVDs. 

Unfortunately, we paid out a lot of EOY charitable contributions last week and are probably around $9.9M now.

We hope to hit $10M this year!

This is when I wish there was a LIKE button. So many things to like in this post.

Like/love!

Nah, mo money = mo problems. I stress out at how the heck I'm going to spend $3M plus the $100k+ per year in pension/SS income.. With $10M I'd have to be making $1M charitable donations to avoid the Nieces and Nephews living on cocaine and caviar!

Good "problem" to have though right?

You could spend a little on campsites...[Dicey ducks and runs for cover.]

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 13, 2024, 03:15:02 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 13, 2024, 02:48:27 PM

You could spend a little on campsites...[Dicey ducks and runs for cover.]

You just DON'T GET IT do you?...:)

Thanks for that "Gas Buddy" App.. It works great..

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 13, 2024, 06:28:03 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 13, 2024, 03:15:02 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 13, 2024, 02:48:27 PM

You could spend a little on campsites...[Dicey ducks and runs for cover.]

You just DON'T GET IT do you?...:)

Thanks for that "Gas Buddy" App.. It works great..

Don't think I can take credit for that. So many helpful 0eople at the Magnificent Moab Meetups...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 13, 2024, 07:57:49 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 13, 2024, 07:39:07 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 12, 2024, 07:28:50 PM

Quote from: pasadenafr on January 12, 2024, 07:15:06 PM

I hope y'all won't mind me intruding in your post. I'm far, far from being eligible (you can find me at the bottom of the previous race!) but I do enjoy reading your thread. I feels a bit like I'm a kid watching the adults from behind the glass. Or like I'm watching one of those sci-fi movies where it's an alternate universe but the people are oddly nice and normal.

Anyway, just ignore me gawking, you inspiring people, I'm just posting to follow.

There comes a time when you suddenly realise you've done almost nothing to get to these rarified Net worth levels.. In fact there is no "almost" about it.. it just happens by itself. In my case we now have three times what we had when I first retired some 10 years ago, and honestly I have not contributed that much in those 10 years.

In other words you ask yourself.. HTF did I end up here? By extension, our friend with $10M is not that many years ahead of most of the forum members in this group.

We are apparently nice and normal because we haven't gotten used to our new found wealth.. Heck I should get new richer friends to replace the existing poor ones, but I just haven't found the time..;)

I don’t feel comfortable at all when thinking about having a $10M balance.
I’ve always been against having a trust but if our balance got that big I might think about setting up some kind of perpetual family trust that would provide income to heirs. Anybody done this?

Not personally.  Seems the people at the Bogleheads forums know quite a lot about trusts; you might try there:

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=2

Trusts can be complicated, and there's a bunch of different kinds of trusts.  They can also cost a decent amount to set up, operate, maintain, and file taxes for.  I'd probably try to find a Nolo Press book on trust basics and read that first so you know the lay of the land.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Allie on January 14, 2024, 02:47:01 PM

Quote from: pasadenafr on January 12, 2024, 07:15:06 PM

I hope y'all won't mind me intruding in your post. I'm far, far from being eligible (you can find me at the bottom of the previous race!) but I do enjoy reading your thread. I feels a bit like I'm a kid watching the adults from behind the glass. Or like I'm watching one of those sci-fi movies where it's an alternate universe but the people are oddly nice and normal.

Anyway, just ignore me gawking, you inspiring people, I'm just posting to follow.

We’re solidly in this thread right now and I still feel like I’m watching the grown ups!  If you made it to the last race and you don’t change how you’re living, you’ll end up here in a blink wondering what happened.  I love this thread because it is about mindset and living now, not future goals.  I think you should stop by any time and see what’s happening because someone is always doing or planning or finishing up something really awesome.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 14, 2024, 04:09:57 PM

Yes, something really awesome like, freaking out at the menu prices or trying t get a campsite for free.

The trouble is, when you do this at a MMM meetup EVERYBODY then finds out how cheap you are.. Isn't that right @Dicey ..:

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on January 14, 2024, 06:14:28 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 13, 2024, 07:57:49 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 13, 2024, 07:39:07 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 12, 2024, 07:28:50 PM

Quote from: pasadenafr on January 12, 2024, 07:15:06 PM

I hope y'all won't mind me intruding in your post. I'm far, far from being eligible (you can find me at the bottom of the previous race!) but I do enjoy reading your thread. I feels a bit like I'm a kid watching the adults from behind the glass. Or like I'm watching one of those sci-fi movies where it's an alternate universe but the people are oddly nice and normal.

Anyway, just ignore me gawking, you inspiring people, I'm just posting to follow.

There comes a time when you suddenly realise you've done almost nothing to get to these rarified Net worth levels.. In fact there is no "almost" about it.. it just happens by itself. In my case we now have three times what we had when I first retired some 10 years ago, and honestly I have not contributed that much in those 10 years.

In other words you ask yourself.. HTF did I end up here? By extension, our friend with $10M is not that many years ahead of most of the forum members in this group.

We are apparently nice and normal because we haven't gotten used to our new found wealth.. Heck I should get new richer friends to replace the existing poor ones, but I just haven't found the time..;)

I don’t feel comfortable at all when thinking about having a $10M balance.
I’ve always been against having a trust but if our balance got that big I might think about setting up some kind of perpetual family trust that would provide income to heirs. Anybody done this?

Not personally.  Seems the people at the Bogleheads forums know quite a lot about trusts; you might try there:

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=2

Trusts can be complicated, and there's a bunch of different kinds of trusts.  They can also cost a decent amount to set up, operate, maintain, and file taxes for.  I'd probably try to find a Nolo Press book on trust basics and read that first so you know the lay of the land.

I’m a CPA so I know enough about trusts to be dangerous. Creating a taxable entity and all the associated fees is why I had never considered it. I was more just wondering if there was a tipping point where it no longer made since for heirs to inherit everything. Used to be that the estate tax law helped answer this but since the Trump tax cuts that’s not really true. If it reverts back to $6M in 2026 then that might push some of this group to consider a trust.

I spent much of this morning planning a very expensive family spring break so maybe I just need to not worry about it and work on spending MORE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 14, 2024, 08:15:18 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 14, 2024, 06:14:28 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 13, 2024, 07:57:49 PM

Not personally.  Seems the people at the Bogleheads forums know quite a lot about trusts; you might try there:

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=2

Trusts can be complicated, and there's a bunch of different kinds of trusts.  They can also cost a decent amount to set up, operate, maintain, and file taxes for.  I'd probably try to find a Nolo Press book on trust basics and read that first so you know the lay of the land.

I’m a CPA so I know enough about trusts to be dangerous. Creating a taxable entity and all the associated fees is why I had never considered it. I was more just wondering if there was a tipping point where it no longer made since for heirs to inherit everything. Used to be that the estate tax law helped answer this but since the Trump tax cuts that’s not really true. If it reverts back to $6M in 2026 then that might push some of this group to consider a trust.

I spent much of this morning planning a very expensive family spring break so maybe I just need to not worry about it and work on spending MORE.

I've only been around one, and have thus read up on them a bit, but only as it applies to our situation.

@bsteiner over at BH will say that a trust keeps the assets out of the heir's estates and provides some protection against divorce/ex-spouses and Medicaid.  I think @bsteiner is a trust and estate attorney.

If the estate tax portion of the TCJA expires and stays expired, then anyone here under about 60 with $3M or so - which is quite a few, see the $2M to $4M and beyond thread - would be smart to start paying attention.

Even the simple one I know about is sufficiently complicated that I'd rather avoid them if I can.  Plain old spending, annual gifting to kids and grandkids, the college tuition/medical expense exemption, and continued Roth conversions are probably what I will do.  For married folks, DSUEA/portability is something to know about too.

(As an aside, the 2026 sunset will just remove a (temporary TCJA) doubling; the inflation adjustments from 2017(?) to now will still apply.  I think the 2026 BEA will be about $7.2 million.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on January 14, 2024, 09:08:57 PM

A couple of things that I'm aware of about Trusts, unlike Wills, are private and avoid probate.  Trusts receive an EIN, which is similar to a SSN.  By being a separate legal entity, Trusts are protected from liabilities against the Trustee.  When you set up a Trust you can choose whether your heirs will become the Trustees of their Trusts, or not.  If you trust an heir to freely control their share, they become a Trustee.  However, if you do not want to give an heir full control of their portion you can name someone else as the Trustee for their Trust.  Brokerage companies, such as Vanguard, offer Trust management services. 


Trust tax rates are quite steep.  To avoid that rate the gains are transferred to the beneficiary and then taxed at their personal rate. 


I'm not a professional, but the info above is what I understand about Trusts.  You obviously need to consult with an estate attorney about your specific situation.


Also, you can protect real estate and other assets by placing them in the Trust.  I found that when I researched real estate deeds in high-end areas nearby a significant number were held in Trusts.  It was much more common than I would have expected.  In NC personal real estate sales require the signature of your mate, while real estate held in a Trust does not. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on January 16, 2024, 08:04:00 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on January 13, 2024, 07:39:07 AM

I don’t feel comfortable at all when thinking about having a $10M balance.
I’ve always been against having a trust but if our balance got that big I might think about setting up some kind of perpetual family trust that would provide income to heirs. Anybody done this?

DW and I had our wills done and the lawyer recommended revokable trusts.  This is in Massachusetts which at that time had a tax cliff over a $1M estate.  Have a $1M estate and there's zero state tax.  $1,000,001 and it's $33,000.  That's since changed to $2M without the cliff.  But anyways, the trust would be funded when the first of us passed with $1M.  When the second of us passed, $1M more.  The rest would be in the estate that would be probated and taxed.  In addition, neither of our kids would be responsible with a big windfall so we'd do the % at 30, % at 40 and so on.  THEN we were hit with the problem.  Trustee.  Seems like not a big deal but people we feel are responsible are our ages, so they likely will die the same time we do.  Those younger aren't responsible as far as we're concerned.  A professional trustee costs between 1 and 3% a year, so with $1M in it, that's $10k to $30k a year and after both of us are gone, $20k to $60k.  So we canned the whole thing.  They'll inherit plenty of money to be able to pay estate taxes.  We should probably just spend it ourselves.  That's sorta hard though because we're so good at living below our means.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 16, 2024, 10:04:08 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 12, 2024, 06:56:39 PM

Quote from: couponvan on January 12, 2024, 05:41:27 PM

Quote from: iris lily on January 12, 2024, 03:19:37 PM

Quote from: libertarian4321 on January 01, 2024, 01:59:09 AM

We hit $10M shortly before Christmas.  Seemed pretty cool to finally get there after all these years, so we celebrated with a movie and a fancy dinner at Longhorn Steakhouse.  Spent well over $100, partying like rockstars.

Then we hit the library on the way home and borrowed some free books and DVDs. 

Unfortunately, we paid out a lot of EOY charitable contributions last week and are probably around $9.9M now.

We hope to hit $10M this year!

This is when I wish there was a LIKE button. So many things to like in this post.

Like/love!

Nah, mo money = mo problems. I stress out at how the heck I'm going to spend $3M plus the $100k+ per year in pension/SS income.. With $10M I'd have to be making $1M charitable donations to avoid the Nieces and Nephews living on cocaine and caviar!

Good "problem" to have though right?

Well said.  We have a few years until SS kicks in ( we are only in our very early 50s ).   Once that kicks in, we will be in the same boat as you.

If I have learned anything during this journey, I now understand how the wealthy stay wealthy.  They basically do nothing and let the money do the work! 

Contributions are making very little difference at this point, but we are still maxing out our 401k's due to tax implications of not doing so.  Likely will be "retiring" ( or laid off ) soon though!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on January 16, 2024, 10:42:50 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 16, 2024, 10:04:08 AM

Well said.  We have a few years until SS kicks in ( we are only in our very early 50s ).   Once that kicks in, we will be in the same boat as you.

If I have learned anything during this journey, I now understand how the wealthy stay wealthy.  They basically do nothing and let the money do the work! 

Contributions are making very little difference at this point, but we are still maxing out our 401k's due to tax implications of not doing so.  Likely will be "retiring" ( or laid off ) soon though!

I don't pay much attention to the impact of our contributions, but now that I think about 2023, having just crunched the numbers, our contributions were about 25% or so of the overall increase. Still significant for us, but really, to your point, if we stopped (or decreased, esp the taxable) we would still progress rapidly towards our goal.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 18, 2024, 08:26:58 AM

18 months until I’m Pension eligible.  With a combination of Sick Leave, Annual Leave and Leave Without pay, I don’t have to work another day if I have a major medical issue.

I’m on the “traditional early retiree track” (first responder with a pension).  With most of my contemporaries who are approaching eligibility, it’s all about what “retirement job” they can get, some are very lucrative.  (My favorite boss is getting 2x his current salary).  It makes me wonder why am “I” a financial mutant in that while I’m happy for them, I have no interest of doing anything like that myself.

I think at the end of the day it might just be those college economic classes, the ones where we studied, trade offs and marginal gains. 

Yup, I could figure out how to spend more money, but why?  My environmental hippie tendencies won’t let me replace my 10 year old TV because it isn’t broken.  I guess I’d switch my condo for a similarly sized house with a small yard.  (My favorite SFH was on a 40x110 ft lot).  I’ve stayed at higher end hotels for work, and the value isn’t there for me, plus I find having “too much service” is kind of personally annoying.  But none of these things would make me “significantly” happier.

On the other hand, it would mean I would not have as much time excess I’m looking forward to.  Who know when if ever I’d be able to walk the Camino with the idea of starting somewhere in Germany/Switzerland, or to have weeks of visiting with family competing with weeks of traditional vacation, to be able to be consistent again in my long distance running and qualify once more for the Boston Marathon.  To developing new hobbies, or making commitments to groups I’d love to volunteer with but I don’t because I know “I’m unreliable” due to work.  To simple things like cooking more in smaller amounts instead of cooking one meal I heat up for the rest of the week. 

I guess the time abundance is just way more important to me to being able to sleep at the Ritz that doesn’t honestly excite me.  Especially since I “could” sleep at the ritz, it would mean I would be using that money I’m saving for a cruise to Antarctica though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on January 18, 2024, 10:14:28 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on January 16, 2024, 10:42:50 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 16, 2024, 10:04:08 AM

Well said.  We have a few years until SS kicks in ( we are only in our very early 50s ).   Once that kicks in, we will be in the same boat as you.

If I have learned anything during this journey, I now understand how the wealthy stay wealthy.  They basically do nothing and let the money do the work! 

Contributions are making very little difference at this point, but we are still maxing out our 401k's due to tax implications of not doing so.  Likely will be "retiring" ( or laid off ) soon though!

I don't pay much attention to the impact of our contributions, but now that I think about 2023, having just crunched the numbers, our contributions were about 25% or so of the overall increase. Still significant for us, but really, to your point, if we stopped (or decreased, esp the taxable) we would still progress rapidly towards our goal.

When we did our last snapshot, we were still a tiny fraction short of our 2021 high despite contributions. And that is why I don't understand how anyone can look at a good year and say "oh, well, my portfolio made more than my salary, what is even the point of adding?" The point is until we reached our goals, everything made a difference. Even now that we have exceeded our goals and I make sure DH knows I support him in leaving at any time, we both realize that  even his downshifted his income and health benefits make a huge difference to what options we will have in the long term.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Ron Scott on January 19, 2024, 07:17:51 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on December 18, 2023, 07:19:26 AM

So to explain tax loss harvesting a bit more, it's not buy high, sell low.  It's "I bought high" and now the market has dropped.  So as long as it's been over 30 days, I sell the one that was bought high.  But at the same time, I buy an equal amount of something that's nearly identical.  The result is that the loss from selling at a lower price gives me a loss for my taxes but buying the near identical keeps me invested, but at the new, low basis.

For example, sell VTI at a loss and buy SCHB.  If you look at their charts over time, they're nearly identical.  It's like if someone looked at my investments and said, "hey Jack.  You paid way too much for VTI and I see you're also in SCHB.  What would you think if I could get you a tax loss and keep you fully invested in this total US stock type ETF?".  My answer would be "Sure.  I could use the tax loss to reduce my taxes and then I reduce my total basis and overall, I take no actual loss as the market corrects back up".  Sure, I'm assuming the market is going to go back up.  But don't we all assume this?  If not, we'd all be 100% in CDs.

I think what leaves some people unimpressed with the strategy is they’re long-term KISS index investors with just a few funds and none are in the red. If they’re set up to reinvest dividends there may a loss on a few shares but it’s small potatoes.

I agree with you in principle and I’ve done some of this. But it’s not always a big deal…for some.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Louise on January 19, 2024, 08:38:45 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on January 18, 2024, 08:26:58 AM

Yup, I could figure out how to spend more money, but why?  My environmental hippie tendencies won’t let me replace my 10 year old TV because it isn’t broken.  I guess I’d switch my condo for a similarly sized house with a small yard.  (My favorite SFH was on a 40x110 ft lot).  I’ve stayed at higher end hotels for work, and the value isn’t there for me, plus I find having “too much service” is kind of personally annoying.  But none of these things would make me “significantly” happier.

I can see paying for more leg room on a plane for international trips (haven't yet though!), but I totally agree about having too much service. I don't know how to maneuver the tipping/expectations, so I'd rather opt out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 19, 2024, 09:12:40 AM

Quote from: Louise on January 19, 2024, 08:38:45 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on January 18, 2024, 08:26:58 AM

Yup, I could figure out how to spend more money, but why?  My environmental hippie tendencies won’t let me replace my 10 year old TV because it isn’t broken.  I guess I’d switch my condo for a similarly sized house with a small yard.  (My favorite SFH was on a 40x110 ft lot).  I’ve stayed at higher end hotels for work, and the value isn’t there for me, plus I find having “too much service” is kind of personally annoying.  But none of these things would make me “significantly” happier.

I can see paying for more leg room on a plane for international trips (haven't yet though!), but I totally agree about having too much service. I don't know how to maneuver the tipping/expectations, so I'd rather opt out.

Paying for extra legroom is already in the plan which is why it didn’t make my list.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 19, 2024, 09:51:58 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on January 19, 2024, 09:12:40 AM

Quote from: Louise on January 19, 2024, 08:38:45 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on January 18, 2024, 08:26:58 AM

Yup, I could figure out how to spend more money, but why?  My environmental hippie tendencies won’t let me replace my 10 year old TV because it isn’t broken.  I guess I’d switch my condo for a similarly sized house with a small yard.  (My favorite SFH was on a 40x110 ft lot).  I’ve stayed at higher end hotels for work, and the value isn’t there for me, plus I find having “too much service” is kind of personally annoying.  But none of these things would make me “significantly” happier.

I can see paying for more leg room on a plane for international trips (haven't yet though!), but I totally agree about having too much service. I don't know how to maneuver the tipping/expectations, so I'd rather opt out.

Paying for extra legroom is already in the plan which is why it didn’t make my list.

I'm fine on coach, even on international trips, IF I get the aisle seat.  Luckily, my spouse is fine with this.  Another bonus on the international flights we have been on lately is that the seats closest to the windows only have two seats.  Works out perfectly for us.  We do have an upcoming international flight in April where there are three seats.  Not quite sure what to do there as we will likely have to sit with a stranger in the window seat, which kind of sucks on long flights.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 19, 2024, 10:25:45 AM

Discretionary spending is pretty much inconsequential these days compared to the money I 'lose' by being lazy not chasing percentages as well as the taxes at my marginal rate...  When I have more time and income 'flexibility', I'll put more effort in to optimizing.  My spending has drifted up significantly these recent years, but it all comes out in the wash while I'm still working.  A little piece of me justifies this by patting myself on the back for spending more prior to the inflationary / pandemic spike (new cars, home improvements), and my 50 year old self is also fine with all that wasteful travel my 30 and 40 year old self / family enjoyed.  All about having balance, and I feel like I've done pretty well, maybe being a bit too miserly in my 20's.  DW certainly likes the 'no money stress' marriage dynamic we have achieved.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 19, 2024, 04:45:22 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 19, 2024, 10:25:45 AM

Discretionary spending is pretty much inconsequential these days compared to the money I 'lose' by being lazy not chasing percentages as well as the taxes at my marginal rate...  When I have more time and income 'flexibility', I'll put more effort in to optimizing.  My spending has drifted up significantly these recent years, but it all comes out in the wash while I'm still working.  A little piece of me justifies this by patting myself on the back for spending more prior to the inflationary / pandemic spike (new cars, home improvements), and my 50 year old self is also fine with all that wasteful travel my 30 and 40 year old self / family enjoyed.  All about having balance, and I feel like I've done pretty well, maybe being a bit too miserly in my 20's.  DW certainly likes the 'no money stress' marriage dynamic we have achieved.

Speaking of 'no money stress', we used to be 'cash poor' in the early days because we were saving so much.  Now...no worries about cash flow whatsoever.  In fact, I had a very large stock trading win at the end of 2023 and substantially beefed up our cash position ( cash is in a HYSA paying what I consider a very good rate ).  We will reassess once rates start to drop, but I wanted to reduce stock market exposure a bit and a HYSA is an adequate option to park cash these days.

I also hope to retire in 2025...IF I can struggle through this year at work.   I want to have the 'rule of 55' option to tap my 401k early without penalty if needed.   Shouldn't need to...but it will be nice to have the option!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 19, 2024, 05:45:09 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 19, 2024, 04:45:22 PM

...
I also hope to retire in 2025...IF I can struggle through this year at work.   I want to have the 'rule of 55' option to tap my 401k early without penalty if needed.   Shouldn't need to...but it will be nice to have the option!

Me too.  A few significant milestones hit right around the time I turn 55 - both kids should be out of college and nearing the 25 yo cutoff to stay on my family health insurance, the rule of 55, and both Biden and Trump will be out of the picture!  I don't *have to* work until I'm 55 but a lot of incentive should disappear in 2029 / 2030...  I'd also be willing to take a severance package in the meantime.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on January 19, 2024, 10:40:22 PM

I just lost two high school classmates this past week.  Both were from medical issues, one sudden, one a longer ordeal for them but sudden for us that didn’t know until the end.  Both leave behind spouses, and one of them two adult children.  One of them was a daily presence in my life for most of high school.  I’ve been thinking about it a lot.  How has the loss of friends or family impacted your thoughts on FIRE or life in general?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 19, 2024, 11:33:31 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on January 19, 2024, 10:40:22 PM

I just lost two high school classmates this past week.  Both were from medical issues, one sudden, one a longer ordeal for them but sudden for us that didn’t know until the end.  Both leave behind spouses, and one of them two adult children.  One of them was a daily presence in my life for most of high school.  I’ve been thinking about it a lot.  How has the loss of friends or family impacted your thoughts on FIRE or life in general?

I was treated for a rare cancer when I was 21-22. It has impacted my thoughts on FIRE every day since. Losing loved ones, or even people you just knew at a certain point in your life, is hard. I read something here that helped profoundly, which makes it a strong possibility that it came from @Metalcat, though I may be misremembering: "Death is not a surprise, it is the expected outcome." I find that oddly comforting. I repeat it to myself as a reminder that now is all that's guaranteed.  Hug your peeps, tell them you like/love/adore them, and hope for the best.

Sorry for your loss, TW.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Metalcat on January 20, 2024, 04:23:11 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 19, 2024, 11:33:31 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on January 19, 2024, 10:40:22 PM

I just lost two high school classmates this past week.  Both were from medical issues, one sudden, one a longer ordeal for them but sudden for us that didn’t know until the end.  Both leave behind spouses, and one of them two adult children.  One of them was a daily presence in my life for most of high school.  I’ve been thinking about it a lot.  How has the loss of friends or family impacted your thoughts on FIRE or life in general?

I was treated for a rare cancer when I was 21-22. It has impacted my thoughts on FIRE every day since. Losing loved ones, or even people you just knew at a certain point in your life, is hard. I read something here that helped profoundly, which makes it a strong possibility that it came from @Metalcat, though I may be misremembering: "Death is not a surprise, it is the expected outcome." I find that oddly comforting. I repeat it to myself as a reminder that now is all that's guaranteed.  Hug your peeps, tell them you like/love/adore them, and hope for the best.

Sorry for your loss, TW.

That definitely sounds like me.

But it also brings up something I wrote about recently. I've been citing the book Being Mortal frequently recently, because it's a REALLY good book, and often highly relevant here because it's all about quality of life.

And one of the points I've brought up a few times is that the research shows pretty solidly that people's values and priorities change pretty intensely over the course of their lives, moving away from accomplishments and drastically more towards connections and relationships.

However, if you experience a major health issue or a major loss younger, you can drastically accelerate that transition. So having cancer young, or me having serious health issues young has very likely been a major driving force of the change in values that drives our mustachianism and our heavy focus on relationships and savouring life rather than on proving our value in society through making and spending as much money as possible, which is the general consensus of demonstrating "accomplishment" in our culture.

So yes, getting sick or having loved ones die younger can absolutely, fundamentally alter the way someone lives their life.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 20, 2024, 06:46:38 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on January 19, 2024, 10:40:22 PM

I just lost two high school classmates this past week.  Both were from medical issues, one sudden, one a longer ordeal for them but sudden for us that didn’t know until the end.  Both leave behind spouses, and one of them two adult children.  One of them was a daily presence in my life for most of high school.  I’ve been thinking about it a lot.  How has the loss of friends or family impacted your thoughts on FIRE or life in general?

My dad started to seriously decline from Alzheimer's by the time he turned 82. This made me realize how limited a window we have to enjoy retirement and was one of the contributing factors for me to retire sooner.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: weebs on January 20, 2024, 07:21:57 AM

Quote from: Metalcat on January 20, 2024, 04:23:11 AM

So yes, getting sick or having loved ones die younger can absolutely, fundamentally alter the way someone lives their life.

This is absolutely true.  One of our friends from college lost her battle with cancer at age 30. At the time, I was a hard driving type A overachiever who spent a ludicrous amount of time at work.  Her death completely scrambled my values (in a good way).  It was at that point that I realized what an asshole I'd been and began focusing more on the relationships in my life and less on my job.

Ten years later a good friend committed suicide.  It wasn't the paradigm shift of prior loss, but it reinforced the importance of maintaining relationships and staying in touch.  He moved ~100 miles away a couple years prior and I saw and spoke with him less than I'd like. I truly miss him and regret not spending more time with him before he was gone.

Fast forward to the present.  Last summer, while waiting to board a plane in Europe to fly back home to the states, I found out that a family member died suddenly.  He was only 12 years older than me.  Weeks later, a close fried from our college crew contracted west nile and almost died.  He's still in a care facility and my never walk again.  Yet another person in that same group of college friends was just diagnosed with cancer.

Life is short, folks.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Metalcat on January 20, 2024, 07:50:01 AM

Quote from: weebs on January 20, 2024, 07:21:57 AM

Quote from: Metalcat on January 20, 2024, 04:23:11 AM

So yes, getting sick or having loved ones die younger can absolutely, fundamentally alter the way someone lives their life.

This is absolutely true.  One of our friends from college lost her battle with cancer at age 30. At the time, I was a hard driving type A overachiever who spent a ludicrous amount of time at work.  Her death completely scrambled my values (in a good way).  It was at that point that I realized what an asshole I'd been and began focusing more on the relationships in my life and less on my job.

Ten years later a good friend committed suicide.  It wasn't the paradigm shift of prior loss, but it reinforced the importance of maintaining relationships and staying in touch.  He moved ~100 miles away a couple years prior and I saw and spoke with him less than I'd like. I truly miss him and regret not spending more time with him before he was gone.

Fast forward to the present.  Last summer, while waiting to board a plane in Europe to fly back home to the states, I found out that a family member died suddenly.  He was only 12 years older than me.  Weeks later, a close fried from our college crew contracted west nile and almost died.  He's still in a care facility and my never walk again.  Yet another person in that same group of college friends was just diagnosed with cancer.

Life is short, folks.

I wrote about this in another thread, but I was highly driven to achieve in school, but not for some vague sense of accomplishment but to be able to do meaningful work connecting with people.

I've been sick my whole life, so my perspective on what matters has always been skewed.

But while I was doing my doctorate and working 80-100hrs/wk, problem kept praising me for the "sacrifices" I was making, and treating me like I was somehow a "good" person for working so hard.

I was so offended by this societal praise and often clapped back that that was a fucking stupid interpretation of what I was doing.

I was spending no time with family, I missed weddings of my closest friends, I was doing absolutely nothing except putting all of my energy into my own success. And it wasn't necessary, the world didn't need me to do that. I competed ferociously with other, perfectly qualified students for my position in that program. If I hadn't gotten in, someone equally driven and capable would have filled that role.

The work I did to get in and the work I did to succeed and graduate benefitted absolutely no one but me. It was the most selfish, self-absorbed, and neglectful of my loved ones I have ever been in my whole life. I even neglected my own health, which is just embarrassing, really.

But I did it because I knew what I wanted to do career-wise to be really happy, and I was right. I was exceptionally happy and satisfied with my career. A few miserable years did end up feeling worth it, but had it been even a handful more years, I can't say that would have been true.

It was acceptable because it was very temporary and gave me the kind of career where I could afford to refocus on what mattered to me, while other career options would have indefinitely required "sacrifices" that weren't worth it.

These aren't "sacrifices" though. These are investments. And like any investment, they are either really smart, or really fucking stupid. The payoff is either worthwhile or it really isn't.

I temporarily pulled all of my investments out of health and relationships and made a play that was intended to payoff big time in terms of both.

But at no point was it a "sacrifice" on my part to take ALLLL of my resources and focus them on my own material gains and away from the things that truly make life worth living. I tolerated a brief stint of toxic self-obsession only because in the end, it was meant to *help* bolster those things that actually matter, and the timeline felt tolerable.

But in my career I was surrounded by folks indoctrinated to believe that that that kind of self-focus is what makes them good, valuable people in this world.

So they end up lonely, isolated, miserable, unhealthy, and disconnected from themselves and others. All the while believing they were doing everything "right," and that they have been piously "sacrificing" all along to do it.

Absolutely poppycock.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 20, 2024, 10:17:54 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 19, 2024, 05:45:09 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 19, 2024, 04:45:22 PM

...
I also hope to retire in 2025...IF I can struggle through this year at work.   I want to have the 'rule of 55' option to tap my 401k early without penalty if needed.   Shouldn't need to...but it will be nice to have the option!

Me too.  A few significant milestones hit right around the time I turn 55 - both kids should be out of college and nearing the 25 yo cutoff to stay on my family health insurance, the rule of 55, and both Biden and Trump will be out of the picture!  I don't *have to* work until I'm 55 but a lot of incentive should disappear in 2029 / 2030...  I'd also be willing to take a severance package in the meantime.

We are nearing those milestones right now.  Both kids graduate from college this spring ( daughter getting her masters degree and son getting his bachelors degree ).   Son is applying to grad schools and hopefully will land a fully paid + stipend gig in space science ( his bachelors degree is in physics and astrophysics ).  He just heard back from the first school and they are interested and he has an informal interview soon!  Fingers crossed!  Daughter will get a job doing therapy when she graduates.   

So a lot of moving parts this year.  IF everything works out with the kids, that will be a huge load lifted.  We will be able to get them out of school with no student loans as well, so that is a big win right there.  However, it is what happens after school that matters even more.

If all goes to plan, decisions will be made in 2025...the year I turn 55.  I'm so past done with my job though...we will see if I can coast along until then!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on January 20, 2024, 07:48:07 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 20, 2024, 10:17:54 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 19, 2024, 05:45:09 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 19, 2024, 04:45:22 PM

...
I also hope to retire in 2025...IF I can struggle through this year at work.   I want to have the 'rule of 55' option to tap my 401k early without penalty if needed.   Shouldn't need to...but it will be nice to have the option!

Me too.  A few significant milestones hit right around the time I turn 55 - both kids should be out of college and nearing the 25 yo cutoff to stay on my family health insurance, the rule of 55, and both Biden and Trump will be out of the picture!  I don't *have to* work until I'm 55 but a lot of incentive should disappear in 2029 / 2030...  I'd also be willing to take a severance package in the meantime.

We are nearing those milestones right now.  Both kids graduate from college this spring ( daughter getting her masters degree and son getting his bachelors degree ).   Son is applying to grad schools and hopefully will land a fully paid + stipend gig in space science ( his bachelors degree is in physics and astrophysics ).  He just heard back from the first school and they are interested and he has an informal interview soon!  Fingers crossed!  Daughter will get a job doing therapy when she graduates.   

So a lot of moving parts this year.  IF everything works out with the kids, that will be a huge load lifted.  We will be able to get them out of school with no student loans as well, so that is a big win right there.  However, it is what happens after school that matters even more.

If all goes to plan, decisions will be made in 2025...the year I turn 55.  I'm so past done with my job though...we will see if I can coast along until then!

So true that what happens after school matters even more.  I have all three kids through college (one just graduated) at this point, but only one that has truly attained independence at this point.  It is a significant factor that goes into the calculus of whether I should pull the trigger in 2025 or 2026.  I'll be 55 this year and definitely agree with the posts about life being short and being more connected, and yet, my sense of responsibility to my family kicks in and I'm not sure I could exit a reasonably successful career with a clean conscience without knowing that the kids were in the clear and independent.

Hoping things work our well for you and your kids.....its been a mixed experience for me for sure.   I'm hopeful that later this year I can have a breakthrough on this front, but right now it looks murky (for one of mine, in particular).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 23, 2024, 02:58:26 AM

A landmark for us - I finally canceled the automatic monthly purchase of the S&P index fund in our brokerage account which had been running continuously since the 1990s. We started this because we had maxed out our 401Ks and still had a lot of money left. Started this at $500 per month and gradually increased the amount over the years as our salaries grew. One of my goals for this year is to transition to the decumulation mindset!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Ron Scott on January 23, 2024, 05:00:47 AM

Over the years I’ve known quite a few wealthy people. My experience is similar to what most of this thread reveals:

1. Very few of the wealthy show it off through big lifestyles. That’s a TV thing. But they also do not judge others who look-the-part.

2. What do the wealthy do with their money? Investments and generosity. They’re not planning to spend their last dollar on an undertaker LOL.

3. Most of the wealthy have a deep sense for value and HATE to overspend. Some can be evangelical about this.

4. Is it surprising how many wealthy men dress to the 20-20-10 rule: The weekend uniform is a $20 T shirt, $20 jeans, and 10-year-old sneakers.


Finally, I find little correlation between wealth and early retirement. Long hours? Whatever. And where others find stress, they play hardball. A big-money gig is a no-bullshit way of life and they don’t let others get in their way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 23, 2024, 01:32:10 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 23, 2024, 02:58:26 AM

A landmark for us - I finally canceled the automatic monthly purchase of the S&P index fund in our brokerage account which had been running continuously since the 1990s. We started this because we had maxed out our 401Ks and still had a lot of money left. Started this at $500 per month and gradually increased the amount over the years as our salaries grew. One of my goals for this year is to transition to the decumulation mindset!

My automatic investments the last few years have been in support of “passing them through” to my DAF.  In other words it’s letting me mentally be able to make those large contributions that I know I can do, but it still feels uncomfy.  Plus it’s letting me sort of tax gain harvest on my most appreciated shares.  They will end at the end of the year in anticipation of my July 2025 FIRE.  It’s getting real now, 18 months.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 24, 2024, 04:57:37 AM

Quote from: arcturus on January 20, 2024, 07:48:07 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 20, 2024, 10:17:54 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 19, 2024, 05:45:09 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 19, 2024, 04:45:22 PM

...
I also hope to retire in 2025...IF I can struggle through this year at work.   I want to have the 'rule of 55' option to tap my 401k early without penalty if needed.   Shouldn't need to...but it will be nice to have the option!

Me too.  A few significant milestones hit right around the time I turn 55 - both kids should be out of college and nearing the 25 yo cutoff to stay on my family health insurance, the rule of 55, and both Biden and Trump will be out of the picture!  I don't *have to* work until I'm 55 but a lot of incentive should disappear in 2029 / 2030...  I'd also be willing to take a severance package in the meantime.

We are nearing those milestones right now.  Both kids graduate from college this spring ( daughter getting her masters degree and son getting his bachelors degree ).   Son is applying to grad schools and hopefully will land a fully paid + stipend gig in space science ( his bachelors degree is in physics and astrophysics ).  He just heard back from the first school and they are interested and he has an informal interview soon!  Fingers crossed!  Daughter will get a job doing therapy when she graduates.   

So a lot of moving parts this year.  IF everything works out with the kids, that will be a huge load lifted.  We will be able to get them out of school with no student loans as well, so that is a big win right there.  However, it is what happens after school that matters even more.

If all goes to plan, decisions will be made in 2025...the year I turn 55.  I'm so past done with my job though...we will see if I can coast along until then!

So true that what happens after school matters even more.  I have all three kids through college (one just graduated) at this point, but only one that has truly attained independence at this point.  It is a significant factor that goes into the calculus of whether I should pull the trigger in 2025 or 2026.  I'll be 55 this year and definitely agree with the posts about life being short and being more connected, and yet, my sense of responsibility to my family kicks in and I'm not sure I could exit a reasonably successful career with a clean conscience without knowing that the kids were in the clear and independent.

Hoping things work our well for you and your kids.....its been a mixed experience for me for sure.   I'm hopeful that later this year I can have a breakthrough on this front, but right now it looks murky (for one of mine, in particular).

I have the first of 3 kids finishing college this year.  Part of my preparation for FIRE was to try to separate these after 18 costs from my stache and making them fixed by fully funding 529s for each of them (that would cover 4 years at our very expensive flagship university).  THey get to keep whatever is in the 529 after graduation.   I then buy them a new car for college graduation.  With no student loans and no car payment for at least 10 years, they should be able to stay out of debt, and then they are own their own so they can figure out how to live off of their salaries and budget going forward without my "interference".  I suspect in good market years I'll cut them a nice check for a christmas present and in bad market years not.  THe first kid is finishing with what looks to be a decent house downpayment left in his 529, so he did well keeping his school costs down with some scholarships and working, and his career prospects look pretty good, so I think this may all be working out..I think...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on January 24, 2024, 07:23:02 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 23, 2024, 02:58:26 AM

A landmark for us - I finally canceled the automatic monthly purchase of the S&P index fund in our brokerage account which had been running continuously since the 1990s. We started this because we had maxed out our 401Ks and still had a lot of money left. Started this at $500 per month and gradually increased the amount over the years as our salaries grew. One of my goals for this year is to transition to the decumulation mindset!

I suspect this will be the hardest thing for me to do. Also started in the 1990s. I think it was $50 a month, but maybe $75. All into the Berger Small Company Growth fund. Moved and changed and added other funds, got up to maybe $250 a month for a decade, then really started increasing about 15 years ago and settled into all VTSAX. We have not reached the levels that you have, but still are at a second comma and have a few more years yet that contributions will continue, and we are fortunate to be able to put a full year of expenses (and more) into the account each year now.

Having a large taxable account just brings so much flexibility. I have considered my taxable monthly contribution as an expense. Even during grad school. I always recommend to get something started as early as possible.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 24, 2024, 09:44:24 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on January 24, 2024, 07:23:02 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 23, 2024, 02:58:26 AM

A landmark for us - I finally canceled the automatic monthly purchase of the S&P index fund in our brokerage account which had been running continuously since the 1990s. We started this because we had maxed out our 401Ks and still had a lot of money left. Started this at $500 per month and gradually increased the amount over the years as our salaries grew. One of my goals for this year is to transition to the decumulation mindset!

I suspect this will be the hardest thing for me to do. Also started in the 1990s. I think it was $50 a month, but maybe $75. All into the Berger Small Company Growth fund. Moved and changed and added other funds, got up to maybe $250 a month for a decade, then really started increasing about 15 years ago and settled into all VTSAX. We have not reached the levels that you have, but still are at a second comma and have a few more years yet that contributions will continue, and we are fortunate to be able to put a full year of expenses (and more) into the account each year now.

Having a large taxable account just brings so much flexibility. I have considered my taxable monthly contribution as an expense. Even during grad school. I always recommend to get something started as early as possible.

I’m hoping, monthly setting aside cash from my spend budget for more expensive items like bigger trips or housing fixes will help me “scratch” the itch.  I’m also going to set aside $100 a month to my play stock account which I view as entertainment/help me to feel like I’m still doing something.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on January 24, 2024, 10:16:35 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on January 24, 2024, 07:23:02 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on January 23, 2024, 02:58:26 AM

A landmark for us - I finally canceled the automatic monthly purchase of the S&P index fund in our brokerage account which had been running continuously since the 1990s. We started this because we had maxed out our 401Ks and still had a lot of money left. Started this at $500 per month and gradually increased the amount over the years as our salaries grew. One of my goals for this year is to transition to the decumulation mindset!

I suspect this will be the hardest thing for me to do. Also started in the 1990s. I think it was $50 a month, but maybe $75. All into the Berger Small Company Growth fund. Moved and changed and added other funds, got up to maybe $250 a month for a decade, then really started increasing about 15 years ago and settled into all VTSAX. We have not reached the levels that you have, but still are at a second comma and have a few more years yet that contributions will continue, and we are fortunate to be able to put a full year of expenses (and more) into the account each year now.

Having a large taxable account just brings so much flexibility. I have considered my taxable monthly contribution as an expense. Even during grad school. I always recommend to get something started as early as possible.

Not sure if this is a blessing or an MPP: we never automated investments in taxable. We have a sizeable taxable account, but it is the result of saving the vast majority of ESPP and RSU proceeds over the years. Now that we have downshifted, those are our living expenses because the paycheck goes to taxes, ESPP and 401k.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 26, 2024, 07:30:08 AM

I just started my annual $10k I-bond purchase. 

In other news, I've decided to un-retire / put out my FIRE and get a j*b!
I'm now employed as a hedge fund manager.
I'm one of those 'elite' hedge fund managers, though - '2 and 20' isn't good enough for me.
Apparently there are some (like D.E. Shaw - https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/2bswhgrmp6rwew5bkgxz4/portfolio/3-and-30-is-back-for-d-e-shaw (https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/2bswhgrmp6rwew5bkgxz4/portfolio/3-and-30-is-back-for-d-e-shaw) that actually charge their clients '3 and 30' : 3% annual fee plus 30% of all generated returns.

As hedge fund manager of my own portfolio, I will 'pay' myself 3 and 30.  So if the market is flat or down this year I will withdraw 3%, if it's up 8% I will withdraw 5.4%, etc.
(well not really... but I do plan to pull out about 3% this year, and I will treat myself to a new cheap sports car (well, cheap for a new sports car - a Mazda Miata) if the market goes up 8% this year, which would correspond to about '3 and 15.' Am I undercharging myself?)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on January 26, 2024, 07:41:53 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 26, 2024, 07:30:08 AM

I just started my annual $10k I-bond purchase. 

In other news, I've decided to un-retire / put out my FIRE and get a j*b!
I'm now employed as a hedge fund manager.
I'm one of those 'elite' hedge fund managers, though - '2 and 20' isn't good enough for me.
Apparently there are some (like D.E. Shaw - https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/2bswhgrmp6rwew5bkgxz4/portfolio/3-and-30-is-back-for-d-e-shaw (https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/2bswhgrmp6rwew5bkgxz4/portfolio/3-and-30-is-back-for-d-e-shaw) that actually charge their clients '3 and 30' : 3% annual fee plus 30% of all generated returns.

As hedge fund manager of my own portfolio, I will 'pay' myself 3 and 30.  So if the market is flat or down this year I will withdraw 3%, if it's up 8% I will withdraw 5.4%, etc.
(well not really... but I do plan to pull out about 3% this year, and I will treat myself to a new cheap sports car (well, cheap for a new sports car - a Mazda Miata) if the market goes up 8% this year, which would correspond to about '3 and 15.' Am I undercharging myself?)

Haha...yep, when I FIRE in a year or so, my "job" title will be "financial planner" ( when people ask ).   

It fits well too as managing our portfolio, stock trading, etc... has actually become a "side gig" of mine, and I enjoy it.  And the brokerage account is proof that it has been successful as well!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on January 26, 2024, 08:47:32 AM

For those buying I-bonds (I just sold mine that had a 0% fixed rate), why are you deciding to do that now instead of waiting until may for a higher fixed rate?

Short Term Treasuries seem to yield about the same at this point so it waiting for the later I-bond fixed rates might be worth it?

Of course, I guess the fixed rate could go down.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LoanShark on January 26, 2024, 12:06:44 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on January 26, 2024, 07:41:53 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 26, 2024, 07:30:08 AM

I just started my annual $10k I-bond purchase. 

In other news, I've decided to un-retire / put out my FIRE and get a j*b!
I'm now employed as a hedge fund manager.
I'm one of those 'elite' hedge fund managers, though - '2 and 20' isn't good enough for me.
Apparently there are some (like D.E. Shaw - https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/2bswhgrmp6rwew5bkgxz4/portfolio/3-and-30-is-back-for-d-e-shaw (https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/2bswhgrmp6rwew5bkgxz4/portfolio/3-and-30-is-back-for-d-e-shaw) that actually charge their clients '3 and 30' : 3% annual fee plus 30% of all generated returns.

As hedge fund manager of my own portfolio, I will 'pay' myself 3 and 30.  So if the market is flat or down this year I will withdraw 3%, if it's up 8% I will withdraw 5.4%, etc.
(well not really... but I do plan to pull out about 3% this year, and I will treat myself to a new cheap sports car (well, cheap for a new sports car - a Mazda Miata) if the market goes up 8% this year, which would correspond to about '3 and 15.' Am I undercharging myself?)

Haha...yep, when I FIRE in a year or so, my "job" title will be "financial planner" ( when people ask ).   

It fits well too as managing our portfolio, stock trading, etc... has actually become a "side gig" of mine, and I enjoy it.  And the brokerage account is proof that it has been successful as well!

Ha! I like that. Great job "title".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 27, 2024, 11:01:54 PM

Quote from: dividendman on January 26, 2024, 08:47:32 AM

For those buying I-bonds (I just sold mine that had a 0% fixed rate), why are you deciding to do that now instead of waiting until may for a higher fixed rate?

Short Term Treasuries seem to yield about the same at this point so it waiting for the later I-bond fixed rates might be worth it?

Of course, I guess the fixed rate could go down.

I’m playing around with TBills but mostly I’m back in the flexible HYSA.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on January 28, 2024, 07:04:58 AM

My path could become much clearer in the next few months.  A policy change at my BigCo is likely to mean that I will be having a discussion with my boss about my future.  It is good to feel like I have options entering this discussion.   Options to include (1) relocating and/or long distance commuting to work; (2) taking a demotion and moving into a transitional role for a year, with some incentives to keep me around for another year (an invented option); (3) getting a (small) severance package.

As I'm not quite where I want to be financially yet, I am presently leaning to Option 2 (which is an option I made up, by the way - the "official" options are (1) and (3)).   I am finding that going through this thought process over the past few weeks is also starting to change my perspective at work, where I am starting to see myself outside of the situation and as being on the way out, rather than just being "in the ring" and churning away, if that makes any sense at all.

Anyways, it certainly appears to have clarified for me that I'll be out by either June 30 of this year or June 30, 2025, worst case.  I'm just debating the pros and cons (financial and otherwise) of taking Option 3 vs 2 at this point. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on January 29, 2024, 10:45:10 AM

Quote from: arcturus on January 28, 2024, 07:04:58 AM

My path could become much clearer in the next few months.  A policy change at my BigCo is likely to mean that I will be having a discussion with my boss about my future.  It is good to feel like I have options entering this discussion.   Options to include (1) relocating and/or long distance commuting to work; (2) taking a demotion and moving into a transitional role for a year, with some incentives to keep me around for another year (an invented option); (3) getting a (small) severance package.

As I'm not quite where I want to be financially yet, I am presently leaning to Option 2 (which is an option I made up, by the way - the "official" options are (1) and (3)).   I am finding that going through this thought process over the past few weeks is also starting to change my perspective at work, where I am starting to see myself outside of the situation and as being on the way out, rather than just being "in the ring" and churning away, if that makes any sense at all.

Anyways, it certainly appears to have clarified for me that I'll be out by either June 30 of this year or June 30, 2025, worst case.  I'm just debating the pros and cons (financial and otherwise) of taking Option 3 vs 2 at this point.

Is option 2 effectively a lateral move for you, pay wise?  At most companies I'm familiar with, option 3 is usually tied to base pay, so option 2 could potentially effect option 3 in the future if the demotion includes pay cut.  That's the first thing that came to mind when reading your post.

Either way, congrats on putting yourself into position to make your own choices at this point!

My company doesn't know it, but I'm unofficially option 2.  Could have left several times over for more money/more stress, but I'm more interested in coasting it out until I vanish into the sunset.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on January 29, 2024, 07:10:21 PM

Quote from: Turtle on January 29, 2024, 10:45:10 AM

Quote from: arcturus on January 28, 2024, 07:04:58 AM

My path could become much clearer in the next few months.  A policy change at my BigCo is likely to mean that I will be having a discussion with my boss about my future.  It is good to feel like I have options entering this discussion.   Options to include (1) relocating and/or long distance commuting to work; (2) taking a demotion and moving into a transitional role for a year, with some incentives to keep me around for another year (an invented option); (3) getting a (small) severance package.

As I'm not quite where I want to be financially yet, I am presently leaning to Option 2 (which is an option I made up, by the way - the "official" options are (1) and (3)).   I am finding that going through this thought process over the past few weeks is also starting to change my perspective at work, where I am starting to see myself outside of the situation and as being on the way out, rather than just being "in the ring" and churning away, if that makes any sense at all.

Anyways, it certainly appears to have clarified for me that I'll be out by either June 30 of this year or June 30, 2025, worst case.  I'm just debating the pros and cons (financial and otherwise) of taking Option 3 vs 2 at this point.

Is option 2 effectively a lateral move for you, pay wise?  At most companies I'm familiar with, option 3 is usually tied to base pay, so option 2 could potentially effect option 3 in the future if the demotion includes pay cut.  That's the first thing that came to mind when reading your post.

Either way, congrats on putting yourself into position to make your own choices at this point!

My company doesn't know it, but I'm unofficially option 2.  Could have left several times over for more money/more stress, but I'm more interested in coasting it out until I vanish into the sunset.

Thanks @Turtle , no Option 2 would not be lateral from a base pay perspective, would definitely be a step down.  My thought would be to see if I could negotiate a supplemental bonus (like a retention bonus) to help get me back to my base salary, while removing me from a managerial position.   But, even if I don't accomplish that, Option 2 would also accomplish some things for me -- allowing me to avoid touching the savings for another year, taking me through a vesting cycle on some equity / RSUs, etc.

And good for you on being in a "unofficial" option 2 situation!!  That may be where I end up, but mine will have an expiration date attaching to it I would suspect.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 29, 2024, 07:35:28 PM

This topic came up elsewhere on the forum, but I didn't feel comfortable sharing it there. DH retired last year, and gets a DB Pension. We haven't started taking SS, which is kind of a technicality, because neither of us is at full retirement age just yet, and we're disinclined to file early.

DH did the math anyway recently. Between his (COLA adjusted) pension and with each of us filing for SS at FRA, we will gross $160k per year. Not counting rental income, not counting taxable investments, not counting 401ks, Roths, IRAs or the value of our primary (paid for) home. There's also 457b money in there somewhere, too.

I FIRE'd right after we got married in 2012, and DH never earned as much as $100k from his primary job (not counting side gigs). Neither did I, for that matter. These numbers are beyond our wildest imagination. Who can't live an insanely lavish life on $160+k per year?

Holy cow. How is this even possible?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 29, 2024, 07:56:46 PM

Wow, @Dicey ! That's incredible. I hope you guys are coming up with fun plans for that - whatever that looks like for you all (charity, travel, spending on family, etc)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 30, 2024, 01:23:13 AM

Very nice @Dicey , we have a similar situation, i.e roughly $125k doing the same calculation. In fact when saving and doing projections I had not even considered what our pensions and SS would be worth.

The problem is RMDs (at age 75 for us) are going to be an absolute killer because like it or not we are going to be drawing incomes considerably larger than our $125/160k dollars..:)

I think our highest spend year in retirement so far has been around $80k, but that included buying that new SUV.. Must spend mo money!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on January 30, 2024, 02:54:59 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 29, 2024, 07:35:28 PM

This topic came up elsewhere on the forum, but I didn't feel comfortable sharing it there. DH retired last year, and gets a DB Pension. We haven't started taking SS, which is kind of a technicality, because neither of us is at full retirement age just yet, and we're disinclined to file early.

DH did the math anyway recently. Between his (COLA adjusted) pension and with each of us filing for SS at FRA, we will gross $160k per year. Not counting rental income, not counting taxable investments, not counting 401ks, Roths, IRAs or the value of our primary (paid for) home. There's also 457b money in there somewhere, too.

I FIRE'd right after we got married in 2012, and DH never earned as much as $100k from his primary job (not counting side gigs). Neither did I, for that matter. These numbers are beyond our wildest imagination. Who can't live an insanely lavish life on $160+k per year?

Holy cow. How is this even possible?

Damn, that's a goodly amount :-)

As it happens, both my wife and I are entitled to pensions (both without COLA). I will get a relatively modest one since the company I worked for in the 1990s terminated their pension plan relatively early but my wife will get a pretty substantial one. I don't include these in our net worth since I only count money actually in hand. My current plan is to roll over pension lump sums into our respective IRAs and then do Roth conversions - upto the 24% bracket!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Louise on January 30, 2024, 05:32:46 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 29, 2024, 07:35:28 PM

This topic came up elsewhere on the forum, but I didn't feel comfortable sharing it there. DH retired last year, and gets a DB Pension. We haven't started taking SS, which is kind of a technicality, because neither of us is at full retirement age just yet, and we're disinclined to file early.

DH did the math anyway recently. Between his (COLA adjusted) pension and with each of us filing for SS at FRA, we will gross $160k per year. Not counting rental income, not counting taxable investments, not counting 401ks, Roths, IRAs or the value of our primary (paid for) home. There's also 457b money in there somewhere, too.

I FIRE'd right after we got married in 2012, and DH never earned as much as $100k from his primary job (not counting side gigs). Neither did I, for that matter. These numbers are beyond our wildest imagination. Who can't live an insanely lavish life on $160+k per year?

Holy cow. How is this even possible?

Wow that's great! I wouldn't know what to do with that much. It's way more than we've ever made together. I often look at our NW and think the same thing though. How is this possible?? We never made big salaries.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on January 30, 2024, 06:04:15 AM

I guess that’s the MPP of not factoring in SS to FIRE…. Since you don’t need it, you can put it off until it maxes out and then you have an even larger surplus! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on January 30, 2024, 06:51:11 AM

If anybody trying to figure out what to do with all their excess cash would be interested in giving me a 0% loan for my house renovations I would very happily discuss!  I've got plenty of money, it is just a pain to tap it now....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on January 30, 2024, 07:18:17 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 30, 2024, 01:23:13 AM

Very nice @Dicey , we have a similar situation, i.e roughly $125k doing the same calculation. In fact when saving and doing projections I had not even considered what our pensions and SS would be worth.

The problem is RMDs (at age 75 for us) are going to be an absolute killer because like it or not we are going to be drawing incomes considerably larger than our $125/160k dollars..:)

I think our highest spend year in retirement so far has been around $80k, but that included buying that new SUV.. Must spend mo money!

My "must spend" plans between age 65-75 are to use Traditional up to just under the Medicare penalty every year, but that will only do so much in addressing RMDs.  If the markets are going so well that I have giant RMDs, it sure sounds like an MPP to me. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 30, 2024, 07:26:31 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 29, 2024, 07:35:28 PM

This topic came up elsewhere on the forum, but I didn't feel comfortable sharing it there. DH retired last year, and gets a DB Pension. We haven't started taking SS, which is kind of a technicality, because neither of us is at full retirement age just yet, and we're disinclined to file early.

DH did the math anyway recently. Between his (COLA adjusted) pension and with each of us filing for SS at FRA, we will gross $160k per year. Not counting rental income, not counting taxable investments, not counting 401ks, Roths, IRAs or the value of our primary (paid for) home. There's also 457b money in there somewhere, too.

I FIRE'd right after we got married in 2012, and DH never earned as much as $100k from his primary job (not counting side gigs). Neither did I, for that matter. These numbers are beyond our wildest imagination. Who can't live an insanely lavish life on $160+k per year?

Holy cow. How is this even possible?

1. This is a "Mustachian People's Problem" https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mustachian-people-problems-(just-for-fun)  (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mustachian-people-problems-(just-for-fun))  if there ever was one.

2. Don't forget those upcoming RMDs!  That lavish $160k+ lifestyle will just have to creep higher!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 30, 2024, 09:59:19 AM

Quote from: Turtle on January 30, 2024, 07:18:17 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 30, 2024, 01:23:13 AM

Very nice @Dicey , we have a similar situation, i.e roughly $125k doing the same calculation. In fact when saving and doing projections I had not even considered what our pensions and SS would be worth.

The problem is RMDs (at age 75 for us) are going to be an absolute killer because like it or not we are going to be drawing incomes considerably larger than our $125/160k dollars..:)

I think our highest spend year in retirement so far has been around $80k, but that included buying that new SUV.. Must spend mo money!

My "must spend" plans between age 65-75 are to use Traditional up to just under the Medicare penalty every year, but that will only do so much in addressing RMDs.  If the markets are going so well that I have giant RMDs, it sure sounds like an MPP to me.

I'm probably being a bit dense here but.. What is an MPP?

It sort of sounds like GPP.... Fot an explanation see here.. :)   https://www.google.com/search?q=hitchikers+guide+GPP+video&sca_esv=8add31af34f47e86&rlz=1CAPPDO_enUS887&ei=Kim5ZZynNoiJ0PEPr_Wb2A8&ved=0ahUKEwic5KqjyYWEAxWIBDQIHa_6BvsQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=hitchikers+guide+GPP+video&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGmhpdGNoaWtlcnMgZ3VpZGUgR1BQIHZpZGVvMgcQIRgKGKABSPMtUIALWMwdcAF4AZABAJgBigKgAa8HqgEFMC41LjG4AQPIAQD4AQHCAgoQABhHGNYEGLADwgIIEAAYFhgeGA_CAgUQIRirAuIDBBgAIEGIBgGQBgQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:796b5be0,vid:Eh-W8QDVA9s,st:0

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on January 30, 2024, 10:03:32 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 30, 2024, 09:59:19 AM

What is an MPP?

Mustachian Person Problem.   The kind of problem people on this forum have that regular folks never have.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 30, 2024, 10:13:59 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 30, 2024, 10:03:32 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 30, 2024, 09:59:19 AM

What is an MPP?

Mustachian Person Problem.   The kind of problem people on this forum have that regular folks never have.

Oh duh.. Thanks!

Yeah RMD's will hurt. I always assumed I would be in a much lower tax bracket when retired.. Umm.. not so much and only true until one has finished milking the Affordable Care Act for all its worth.

Unless you live in any other Country except the USA of course.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on January 30, 2024, 10:32:04 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 30, 2024, 09:59:19 AM

Quote from: Turtle on January 30, 2024, 07:18:17 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on January 30, 2024, 01:23:13 AM

Very nice @Dicey , we have a similar situation, i.e roughly $125k doing the same calculation. In fact when saving and doing projections I had not even considered what our pensions and SS would be worth.

The problem is RMDs (at age 75 for us) are going to be an absolute killer because like it or not we are going to be drawing incomes considerably larger than our $125/160k dollars..:)

I think our highest spend year in retirement so far has been around $80k, but that included buying that new SUV.. Must spend mo money!

My "must spend" plans between age 65-75 are to use Traditional up to just under the Medicare penalty every year, but that will only do so much in addressing RMDs.  If the markets are going so well that I have giant RMDs, it sure sounds like an MPP to me.

I'm probably being a bit dense here but.. What is an MPP?

It sort of sounds like GPP.... Fot an explanation see here.. :)   https://www.google.com/search?q=hitchikers+guide+GPP+video&sca_esv=8add31af34f47e86&rlz=1CAPPDO_enUS887&ei=Kim5ZZynNoiJ0PEPr_Wb2A8&ved=0ahUKEwic5KqjyYWEAxWIBDQIHa_6BvsQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=hitchikers+guide+GPP+video&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGmhpdGNoaWtlcnMgZ3VpZGUgR1BQIHZpZGVvMgcQIRgKGKABSPMtUIALWMwdcAF4AZABAJgBigKgAa8HqgEFMC41LjG4AQPIAQD4AQHCAgoQABhHGNYEGLADwgIIEAAYFhgeGA_CAgUQIRirAuIDBBgAIEGIBgGQBgQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:796b5be0,vid:Eh-W8QDVA9s,st:0

Mustachian People Problems. We have a whole thread on the issue.

We have exceeded the amount we once thought "I wouldn't even know how to spend that much!" Problem is, we learned how to spend it. Our current spending hasn't gone up by much more than inflation, but when we decide our current boat doesn't meet our needs, we will probably make a significant upgrade rather than just getting back to where we were when this boat was new to us.

Meanwhile, as was mentioned around Christmas, we struggle around gifting and philanthropy. We don't know what to do for nieces and nephews because anything would be multiplied by 20. Even for other folks, one minute we are gung ho, the next we are questioning. We would never nag an individual for their choices after we have given funds, but we might not offer anything more. So much easier to give to established charities and let them deal with the individual successes and failures!

Whether or not RMDs turn out to be problematic will depend on how long DH maintains his semi retired status. I expected to be doing conversions by now and instead we are still making traditional 401k contributions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 30, 2024, 02:57:37 PM

QCDs could help an RMD MPP.  HTH.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: weebs on January 30, 2024, 03:25:32 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 30, 2024, 02:57:37 PM

QCDs could help an RMD MPP.  HTH.

LOL

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 30, 2024, 06:00:49 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 30, 2024, 02:57:37 PM

QCDs could help an RMD MPP.  HTH.

IMO, CPA's are second only to the Military  in their love of acronyms.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 30, 2024, 08:04:59 PM

Lest I sound like a total idiot, I never knew exactly how to calculate the value of DH's pension, and I always suspected that pulling the plug at 54 would adversely effect my SS., so I kind of ignored them both. We hit FIRE based on everything else, so this discovery is freaking crazy!

We already have a DAF, we've already helped DH's kids get into/fix up homes as much as we're willing to, what our house needs is already budgeted for...it's insanity!

We think this also means that we should do some big RMDs IRA Withdrawals before we start SS. Otherwise, the taxes will give us a heart attack.

Our CPA was never big on Roth Conversions. He felt they wouldn't help us that much. I'd love for some smart mustachian to prove him wrong.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 30, 2024, 09:37:55 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 30, 2024, 08:04:59 PM

Lest I sound like a total idiot, I never knew exactly how to calculate the value of DH's pension, and I always suspected that pulling the plug at 54 would adversely effect my SS., so I kind of ignored them both. We hit FIRE based on everything else, so this discovery is freaking crazy!

We already have a DAF, we've already helped DH's kids get into/fix up homes as much as we're willing to, what our house needs is already budgeted for...it's insanity!

We think this also means that we should do some big RMDs before we start SS. Otherwise, the taxes will give us a heart attack.

Our CPA was never big on Roth Conversions. He felt they wouldn't help us that much. I'd love for some smart mustachian to prove him wrong.

He's probably wrong, but it is probably water under the bridge now.

Although you could look at Roth conversions going forward; they might still help a bit depending on your whole situation.

QCDs are probably better for you than a DAF when you get to 70.5.  Or maybe you wait until RMD age depending on the size of your IRAs and your whole tax situation.

Not a CPA, BTW.  Also not military, FYI. ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 30, 2024, 09:40:59 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 30, 2024, 08:04:59 PM

Lest I sound like a total idiot, I never knew exactly how to calculate the value of DH's pension, and I always suspected that pulling the plug at 54 would adversely effect my SS., so I kind of ignored them both. We hit FIRE based on everything else, so this discovery is freaking crazy!

We already have a DAF, we've already helped DH's kids get into/fix up homes as much as we're willing to, what our house needs is already budgeted for...it's insanity!

We think this also means that we should do some big RMDs before we start SS. Otherwise, the taxes will give us a heart attack.

Our CPA was never big on Roth Conversions. He felt they wouldn't help us that much. I'd love for some smart mustachian to prove him wrong.

I’m in the same boat due to my pension, conversions don’t “make sense”. Unless I were to be using them to pass money on to others.  (Aka if I had kids)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 30, 2024, 10:59:50 PM

Quote from: dividendman on January 26, 2024, 08:47:32 AM

For those buying I-bonds (I just sold mine that had a 0% fixed rate), why are you deciding to do that now instead of waiting until may for a higher fixed rate?

Short Term Treasuries seem to yield about the same at this point so it waiting for the later I-bond fixed rates might be worth it?

Of course, I guess the fixed rate could go down.

@dividendman , on re-reading your post I'm a little confused. Are you saying that it's been announced that the fixed rate is going up in May? If so, do you have any link to a source for that assertion?

If it hasn't been announced then my best guess is that the fixed rate may drop from the current rate as real rates have been dropping lately, so I'll go ahead with my purchase now.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on January 30, 2024, 11:57:44 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 30, 2024, 08:04:59 PM

Lest I sound like a total idiot, I never knew exactly how to calculate the value of DH's pension, and I always suspected that pulling the plug at 54 would adversely effect my SS., so I kind of ignored them both. We hit FIRE based on everything else, so this discovery is freaking crazy!

We already have a DAF, we've already helped DH's kids get into/fix up homes as much as we're willing to, what our house needs is already budgeted for...it's insanity!

We think this also means that we should do some big RMDs before we start SS. Otherwise, the taxes will give us a heart attack.

Our CPA was never big on Roth Conversions. He felt they wouldn't help us that much. I'd love for some smart mustachian to prove him wrong.

Last time I looked at it I could PERHAPS reduce my 401k by about $0.5M with relatively little pain as long I had got out of the rental business, waited till I was 68 (and DW hit 65, aka Medicare/ slash my wrists age) and didn't draw any SS or pensions.

Trouble is my 401k balance is currently about $1.6M and I'm a mere 62.. In 6 years this "problem" could be a whole lot bigger.

I think I'm innevitably gonna be paying a shit-ton of taxes!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Josiecat22222 on January 31, 2024, 05:56:18 AM

RMD's are going to be a pain.  We are planning to use our tIRA's to fund our lives exclusively during the ages of 59.5 and 75 (just let the brokerage roll) so as to minimize a "forced" tax.  We will likely still end up with too much in our accounts as we live a fairly frugal life, but that appears to be the theme in these parts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on January 31, 2024, 06:30:26 AM

Quote from: secondcor521 on January 30, 2024, 02:57:37 PM

QCDs could help an RMD MPP.  HTH.

Already planning on it for the first year or two to kick the "problem" down the curb as long as possible.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on January 31, 2024, 07:01:58 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 30, 2024, 08:04:59 PM

Lest I sound like a total idiot, I never knew exactly how to calculate the value of DH's pension, and I always suspected that pulling the plug at 54 would adversely effect my SS., so I kind of ignored them both. We hit FIRE based on everything else, so this discovery is freaking crazy!

We already have a DAF, we've already helped DH's kids get into/fix up homes as much as we're willing to, what our house needs is already budgeted for...it's insanity!

We think this also means that we should do some big RMDs before we start SS. Otherwise, the taxes will give us a heart attack.

Our CPA was never big on Roth Conversions. He felt they wouldn't help us that much. I'd love for some smart mustachian to prove him wrong.

I don't quite understand your thinking here.

If you take out a huge lump sum from your Trad accounts prior to taking SS, you are going to pay your marginal tax rate on that money anyway.  Why not just do a Roth conversion and then at least it grows tax free for the rest of eternity?  Versus being money in yet another taxable account that you have to continue to think about/manage in order to limit your annual tax burden.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 31, 2024, 08:44:30 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 30, 2024, 08:04:59 PM

[...] We think this also means that we should do some big RMDs before we start SS. Otherwise, the taxes will give us a heart attack. [...]

I'm guessing you meant to write 'some big Roth conversions' ? (RMDs start at 72, and their amount is fixed based on your remaining life expectancy (per the IRS table) and your beginning of year pretax account balance)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on January 31, 2024, 08:58:14 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 30, 2024, 10:59:50 PM

Quote from: dividendman on January 26, 2024, 08:47:32 AM

For those buying I-bonds (I just sold mine that had a 0% fixed rate), why are you deciding to do that now instead of waiting until may for a higher fixed rate?

Short Term Treasuries seem to yield about the same at this point so it waiting for the later I-bond fixed rates might be worth it?

Of course, I guess the fixed rate could go down.

@dividendman , on re-reading your post I'm a little confused. Are you saying that it's been announced that the fixed rate is going up in May? If so, do you have any link to a source for that assertion?

If it hasn't been announced then my best guess is that the fixed rate may drop from the current rate as real rates have been dropping lately, so I'll go ahead with my purchase now.

No, I'm just speculating, hence my last line "of course, I guess the fixed rate could go down". But real rates (real rates = nominal rate - inflation) have actually been rising, not dropping.  So this leads me to speculate on a higher fixed rate when they set it in May.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on January 31, 2024, 09:33:06 AM

Quote from: dividendman on January 31, 2024, 08:58:14 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 30, 2024, 10:59:50 PM

Quote from: dividendman on January 26, 2024, 08:47:32 AM

For those buying I-bonds (I just sold mine that had a 0% fixed rate), why are you deciding to do that now instead of waiting until may for a higher fixed rate?

Short Term Treasuries seem to yield about the same at this point so it waiting for the later I-bond fixed rates might be worth it?

Of course, I guess the fixed rate could go down.

@dividendman , on re-reading your post I'm a little confused. Are you saying that it's been announced that the fixed rate is going up in May? If so, do you have any link to a source for that assertion?

If it hasn't been announced then my best guess is that the fixed rate may drop from the current rate as real rates have been dropping lately, so I'll go ahead with my purchase now.

No, I'm just speculating, hence my last line "of course, I guess the fixed rate could go down". But real rates (real rates = nominal rate - inflation) have actually been rising, not dropping.  So this leads me to speculate on a higher fixed rate when they set it in May.

According to the Fed (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/REAINTRATREARAT10Y (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/REAINTRATREARAT10Y)), the real 10-year rate has dropped from 2.09 in November to 1.8 or so today...similarly for 5-, 30-year rates as well...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on January 31, 2024, 09:41:08 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 31, 2024, 09:33:06 AM

Quote from: dividendman on January 31, 2024, 08:58:14 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 30, 2024, 10:59:50 PM

Quote from: dividendman on January 26, 2024, 08:47:32 AM

For those buying I-bonds (I just sold mine that had a 0% fixed rate), why are you deciding to do that now instead of waiting until may for a higher fixed rate?

Short Term Treasuries seem to yield about the same at this point so it waiting for the later I-bond fixed rates might be worth it?

Of course, I guess the fixed rate could go down.

@dividendman , on re-reading your post I'm a little confused. Are you saying that it's been announced that the fixed rate is going up in May? If so, do you have any link to a source for that assertion?

If it hasn't been announced then my best guess is that the fixed rate may drop from the current rate as real rates have been dropping lately, so I'll go ahead with my purchase now.

No, I'm just speculating, hence my last line "of course, I guess the fixed rate could go down". But real rates (real rates = nominal rate - inflation) have actually been rising, not dropping.  So this leads me to speculate on a higher fixed rate when they set it in May.

According to the Fed (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/REAINTRATREARAT10Y (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/REAINTRATREARAT10Y)), the real 10-year rate has dropped from 2.09 in November to 1.8 or so today...similarly for 5-, 30-year rates as well...

Hrm, you're right! For some reason I was under the impression that inflation was going down but the FFR hasn't moved in a bit... but that's the short term rate. Thanks! Maybe I will buy now...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on January 31, 2024, 07:25:40 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 30, 2024, 08:04:59 PM

Lest I sound like a total idiot, I never knew exactly how to calculate the value of DH's pension, and I always suspected that pulling the plug at 54 would adversely effect my SS., so I kind of ignored them both. We hit FIRE based on everything else, so this discovery is freaking crazy!

We already have a DAF, we've already helped DH's kids get into/fix up homes as much as we're willing to, what our house needs is already budgeted for...it's insanity!

We think this also means that we should do some big RMDs IRA Withdrawals before we start SS. Otherwise, the taxes will give us a heart attack.

Our CPA was never big on Roth Conversions. He felt they wouldn't help us that much. I'd love for some smart mustachian to prove him wrong.

Quote from: jeroly on January 31, 2024, 08:44:30 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 30, 2024, 08:04:59 PM

[...] We think this also means that we should do some big RMDs before we start SS. Otherwise, the taxes will give us a heart attack. [...]

I'm guessing you meant to write 'some big Roth conversions' ? (RMDs start at 72, and their amount is fixed based on your remaining life expectancy (per the IRS table) and your beginning of year pretax account balance)

What I meant is withdrawals from our IRAs, not RMDs.

From the IRS website: "You can withdraw or use your traditional IRA assets at any time. However, a 10% additional tax generally applies if you withdraw or use IRA assets before you reach age 59½."

We are well over 59.5. I think it might make sense to withdraw the difference between our income and the Medicare limit of $206,000. OTOH, with rental income factored in, it might not be a big enough gap to make much difference. We're screwed. Such an MPP, lol.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on January 31, 2024, 07:55:42 PM

Quote from: Dicey on January 31, 2024, 07:25:40 PM

We are well over 59.5. I think it might make sense to withdraw the difference between our income and the Medicare limit of $206,000. OTOH, with rental income factored in, it might not be a big enough gap to make much difference. We're screwed. Such an MPP, lol.

If so, Roth conversions instead of withdrawals are generally better.  That way any growth or income on the converted amount grows tax free inside the Roth rather than taxably outside it.  If you want to spend the money, you can always withdraw it from the Roth at that point.

The only negative I can think of is that you can't harvest tax losses inside the Roth.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: oldmannickels on February 01, 2024, 09:19:05 AM

Quote from: Dicey on January 30, 2024, 08:04:59 PM

Lest I sound like a total idiot, I never knew exactly how to calculate the value of DH's pension, and I always suspected that pulling the plug at 54 would adversely effect my SS., so I kind of ignored them both. We hit FIRE based on everything else, so this discovery is freaking crazy!

We already have a DAF, we've already helped DH's kids get into/fix up homes as much as we're willing to, what our house needs is already budgeted for...it's insanity!

We think this also means that we should do some big RMDs IRA Withdrawals before we start SS. Otherwise, the taxes will give us a heart attack.

Our CPA was never big on Roth Conversions. He felt they wouldn't help us that much. I'd love for some smart mustachian to prove him wrong.

It's just going to depend on your situation in total. If you probably aren't going to touch the money it doesn't matter much to you and more to your heirs.

My parents are in a similar situation with 100k+ in pension + SS. Any Roth conversion gets both their marginal rate and pushes their capital gains out of the 0% range so ends up doubling their effective rate. We did some Roth conversions before their full SS kicked in. Their RMD's aren't so bad though and my plan is to deplete the IRAs when they get into the nursing home with those big medical expenses.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Shuchong on February 01, 2024, 11:59:38 AM

Quote from: dividendman on January 31, 2024, 09:41:08 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 31, 2024, 09:33:06 AM

Quote from: dividendman on January 31, 2024, 08:58:14 AM

Quote from: jeroly on January 30, 2024, 10:59:50 PM

Quote from: dividendman on January 26, 2024, 08:47:32 AM

For those buying I-bonds (I just sold mine that had a 0% fixed rate), why are you deciding to do that now instead of waiting until may for a higher fixed rate?

Short Term Treasuries seem to yield about the same at this point so it waiting for the later I-bond fixed rates might be worth it?

Of course, I guess the fixed rate could go down.

@dividendman , on re-reading your post I'm a little confused. Are you saying that it's been announced that the fixed rate is going up in May? If so, do you have any link to a source for that assertion?

If it hasn't been announced then my best guess is that the fixed rate may drop from the current rate as real rates have been dropping lately, so I'll go ahead with my purchase now.

No, I'm just speculating, hence my last line "of course, I guess the fixed rate could go down". But real rates (real rates = nominal rate - inflation) have actually been rising, not dropping.  So this leads me to speculate on a higher fixed rate when they set it in May.

According to the Fed (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/REAINTRATREARAT10Y (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/REAINTRATREARAT10Y)), the real 10-year rate has dropped from 2.09 in November to 1.8 or so today...similarly for 5-, 30-year rates as well...

Hrm, you're right! For some reason I was under the impression that inflation was going down but the FFR hasn't moved in a bit... but that's the short term rate. Thanks! Maybe I will buy now...

For iBond predictions, I assume that whatever TipsWatch (https://tipswatch.com/ (https://tipswatch.com/)) says is the best guess I'm going to get.  They think the fixed rate is likely to go down at the May 1 reset, and so advocate buying before then.  They also advocate waiting until April to see if the tea leaves get any clearer.  (https://tipswatch.com/2024/01/07/i-bond-buying-guide-for-2024-be-patient/ (https://tipswatch.com/2024/01/07/i-bond-buying-guide-for-2024-be-patient/)). 

The "wait until April" advice, I didn't follow.  I bought all mine a few days ago.  I now have over $180k in ibonds (started buying them back in 2011), which is crazy to me.  That's over three years of living expenses, just sort of quietly sitting there tax deferred.

I'm using them to make me feel better about my 5.375% mortgage (3.25% after tax deductions), since Dicey convinced me holding is better than pre-paying.  If I think of the ibonds as tax free, which they probably will be for me if I FIRE, most of them are handily beating my post-tax mortgage rate, with no market risk. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Louise on February 01, 2024, 03:01:08 PM

Quote from: Shuchong on February 01, 2024, 11:59:38 AM

I'm using them to make me feel better about my 5.375% mortgage (3.25% after tax deductions), since Dicey convinced me holding is better than pre-paying.  If I think of the ibonds as tax free, which they probably will be for me if I FIRE, most of them are handily beating my post-tax mortgage rate, with no market risk.

We are using them for our fixed asset part of college savings, while our 529 is only in stocks. So they will be tax free for us if used for that purpose. I haven't decided if I'm going to buy more. I think I'll decide in a month or two.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on February 02, 2024, 09:34:14 AM

Did 2023 taxes this morning. I use TurboTax and don't worry much about the cost of Fed and State, it just is what it is. Took about a half hour or so (already had 1099s and W-2s in hand). Process was decent, one 1099 had to be manually entered for whatever reason, but the general import was super smooth. Didn't have to do anything for the W-2s, the values just appeared. Normally I am squinting at the control number trying to count zeroes in the number.

We are getting a decent refund because a legacy mutual fund that often kicks out $10k - $20k distributions most years kicked out $0.00 in 2023. Anyway, I am on a gentle path towards simplification of all our accounts. I hovered over the "Receive Savings Bonds as part of your refund" button, but ultimately just said to send it all to our checking account so I can buy VTSAX with it. At this stage of our game, I just can't justify Series I bonds. While they are a nice product, it would just be annoying to start building a position in a new 'place' (Treasury Direct) when I am working to whittle things down to just bank, Vanguard (taxable, Rollover IRAs), and Fidelity (401k and HSA). Additionally, I am trying to make those accounts as simple as possible as time goes along.

If I wasn't at zero I bonds, likely would feel differently.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 04, 2024, 06:35:09 PM

I have everything except my consolidated 1099 from Vanguard.  So all the forms are in a file waiting for the last one so they can be off to my CPA.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: TempusFugit on February 05, 2024, 01:28:10 PM

I stopped using TurboTax years ago when they were caught installing sneaky crap on your PC.  I don’t recall the details but I remember it made the news some years back.  They also are a major lobbyist for preventing the government from making tax filing easier.  I know they’re probably all doing the same crap, but I remember TurboTax in particular so I blacklisted them ever since.  I’ve been using TaxAct. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 05, 2024, 07:59:43 PM

I'm 'jealous' of everyone getting their taxes done early and not owing.  Just taking a quick look at my 1099's (interest, dividends) is giving me chills on what I'll owe.  I know it is just giving Uncle Sam a cut of my windfall that I should've planned better for, but since I re-invest all of this (instead of going out and spending it), it does feel like punishment...  just another MPP I guess.  I'll get an extension and coverage of penalties and interest through work, but will probably need to shell out ~$40-50k at some point.  I guess stopping the W-2 income would solve most if not all of this problem...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on February 05, 2024, 08:13:08 PM

I got you, @EscapeVelocity2020 . We owe... a lot. Every year. We adjust our withholdings, but our stock vests throw us off, as we never know how much they will be worth monthly.

My only consolation is that we owe substantially less than last year. We dialed our withholdings wayyyyyy up. So, I guess that's my win.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on February 05, 2024, 08:37:49 PM

I wish I could do my taxes, but Chase, Citi and Wells Fargo brokerages take forever to get their forms out. I don't understand, all trades settle in 3 days, just make the damn forms! They should be available by Jan 10!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 05, 2024, 08:39:37 PM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on February 05, 2024, 08:13:08 PM

I got you, @EscapeVelocity2020 . We owe... a lot. Every year. We adjust our withholdings, but our stock vests throw us off, as we never know how much they will be worth monthly.

My only consolation is that we owe substantially less than last year. We dialed our withholdings wayyyyyy up. So, I guess that's my win.

Thanks for commiserating!  I'm chipping away at taxes but keep finding so many other things I'd much rather do...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on February 05, 2024, 08:46:17 PM

I procrastinated by filing taxes for my teens, who both earned under $4k this summer. It was just a little easier than our taxes. :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 05, 2024, 10:03:31 PM

2023 is the first year one of my kids had W-2 income.  It was only a few hundred dollars.  Does that mean we need to file a return for her this year?  Do they still have a 1040-EZ?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on February 05, 2024, 10:49:16 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 05, 2024, 10:03:31 PM

2023 is the first year one of my kids had W-2 income.  It was only a few hundred dollars.  Does that mean we need to file a return for her this year?  Do they still have a 1040-EZ?

1040-EZ no longer exists.

Assuming they are a dependent and the W-2 income is their only income (i.e., no investment income or interest income), and they have no special situations (listed in Charts C or D in the "Who Must File?" part of the Form 1040 instructions), then they would not have to file.

Even though they don't have to file, you can still elect to file a return for them.  This would be useful if, for example, any federal or state taxes were withheld that they want refunded to them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 06, 2024, 04:53:01 AM

When I send in my taxes each year I at the same time pay Fed and State Q1 estimated taxes around the right amount to cover eventual taxes on my investment income/distributions.  Some years I make less than others, and most of the distributions come at the end of the year, so I'm sure I usually don't need to do this but I've always just done it anyway.

For 2023 I received a large bonus in Feb of my previous job and then moved to my new one and worked it most of the year, so the one thing I didnt consider until plugging in my forms into Turbotax last week was I basically maxed out SS withholding twice, so due to that I should get around a $10k refund which means other than that I guessed about right this year, thogh will not be sure until the VG forms come in.

For 2024 I'll be in my now half-time job so am having to refigure everything for the lower tax brackets.  I'm trying to get my employer to withhold about the right amount per paycheck to cover my investment taxes this year and not make the estimated.  This is the first year ever I've been on employer Health insurance and its cool to see in addition to it being a lot cheaper than my commercial insurance (a lot) that the premiums withheld from my check is also considered pre-tax, so adding that to my maxed out catch up 401k it occurred to me I  might actually qualify to make Roth contributions again, first time in 10 years so I had completely forgotten about them other they are an old retirement account I carry.  I'm trying to get it all streamlined this year because the next few will likely be the exact same if I continue in this job.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jsap819 on February 06, 2024, 12:35:12 PM

Just peeking in to say I cracked the $2M total net worth and consider myself a multimillionaire :P. Can't really tell anyone else besides the wife so I wanted to share this with the community that has helped me achieve this milestone that I thought was unattainable. Next goal is to achieve this status with LNW. Currently sitting on $1.45M.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on February 06, 2024, 12:56:58 PM

Quote from: jsap819 on February 06, 2024, 12:35:12 PM

Just peeking in to say I cracked the $2M total net worth and consider myself a multimillionaire :P. Can't really tell anyone else besides the wife so I wanted to share this with the community that has helped me achieve this milestone that I thought was unattainable. Next goal is to achieve this status with LNW. Currently sitting on $1.45M.

Congratulations!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on February 06, 2024, 03:25:23 PM

Quote from: jsap819 on February 06, 2024, 12:35:12 PM

Just peeking in to say I cracked the $2M total net worth and consider myself a multimillionaire :P. Can't really tell anyone else besides the wife so I wanted to share this with the community that has helped me achieve this milestone that I thought was unattainable. Next goal is to achieve this status with LNW. Currently sitting on $1.45M.

Welcome to the party! My goal used to be $2 million and a paid off $500,000 house. Lifestyle creep and/or inflation has me moving the goal posts.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 06, 2024, 04:11:42 PM

Quote from: couponvan on February 06, 2024, 03:25:23 PM

Quote from: jsap819 on February 06, 2024, 12:35:12 PM

Just peeking in to say I cracked the $2M total net worth and consider myself a multimillionaire :P. Can't really tell anyone else besides the wife so I wanted to share this with the community that has helped me achieve this milestone that I thought was unattainable. Next goal is to achieve this status with LNW. Currently sitting on $1.45M.

Welcome to the party! My goal used to be $2 million and a paid off $500,000 house. Lifestyle creep and/or inflation has me moving the goal posts.

I know the feeling. I used to count the LNW + net present value of future pensions and house to come up with our net worth. As time went on I stopped counting the pension, then the house (don't intend to sell plus we need a place to live) so now down to just the investments.

My Wife won't let me tell her how much we have as the number is overwhelming to her.. Of course I let it slip every couple of years just to watch her have a kind of mini fit..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on February 06, 2024, 04:24:51 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 06, 2024, 04:11:42 PM

Quote from: couponvan on February 06, 2024, 03:25:23 PM

Quote from: jsap819 on February 06, 2024, 12:35:12 PM

Just peeking in to say I cracked the $2M total net worth and consider myself a multimillionaire :P. Can't really tell anyone else besides the wife so I wanted to share this with the community that has helped me achieve this milestone that I thought was unattainable. Next goal is to achieve this status with LNW. Currently sitting on $1.45M.

Welcome to the party! My goal used to be $2 million and a paid off $500,000 house. Lifestyle creep and/or inflation has me moving the goal posts.

I know the feeling. I used to count the LNW + net present value of future pensions and house to come up with our net worth. As time went on I stopped counting the pension, then the house (don't intend to sell plus we need a place to live) so now down to just the investments.

My Wife won't let me tell her how much we have as the number is overwhelming to her.. Of course I let it slip every couple of years just to watch her have a kind of mini fit..:)

If the markets hold for a few more weeks, I expect to exceed what was originally our "surely we don't need any more than that!" number. Turns out, now that we have that magnitude, there are some things we had t considered that now seem really tempting.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on February 06, 2024, 05:26:31 PM

DH’s company valuation exceeded my expectations-however, I refuse to include them as the egg/chicken theory is strong in this human, and until the bird is in hand, we best not be counting them. He does want me working 1/2 time….probably so I will pester him less at work. On the flip side, he keeps dangling travel opportunities when it is most inconvenient for me to travel. 1st world problems. Puerto Rico this month, Cabo in May, Peru in ??-that’s bonus $ travel. Mind you we are spending $110K in tuition because we make too much $$. We get $0 in tax deductions for said tuition. It is what it is. 2 more years of double tuition, then “maybe” one more of single tuition.

I could be done, but I hate selling stocks/investments. Cash flowing college was one of my original goals-only at in-state tuition rates. It’s our fault we haven’t moved to where the kids are in college-so we are on the hook for the OOS tuition.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jsap819 on February 06, 2024, 06:03:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 06, 2024, 04:11:42 PM

Quote from: couponvan on February 06, 2024, 03:25:23 PM

Quote from: jsap819 on February 06, 2024, 12:35:12 PM

Just peeking in to say I cracked the $2M total net worth and consider myself a multimillionaire :P. Can't really tell anyone else besides the wife so I wanted to share this with the community that has helped me achieve this milestone that I thought was unattainable. Next goal is to achieve this status with LNW. Currently sitting on $1.45M.

Welcome to the party! My goal used to be $2 million and a paid off $500,000 house. Lifestyle creep and/or inflation has me moving the goal posts.

I know the feeling. I used to count the LNW + net present value of future pensions and house to come up with our net worth. As time went on I stopped counting the pension, then the house (don't intend to sell plus we need a place to live) so now down to just the investments.

My Wife won't let me tell her how much we have as the number is overwhelming to her.. Of course I let it slip every couple of years just to watch her have a kind of mini fit..:)

Unfortunately, my wife also feels the same. I usually update her a couple of times a year whenever we reach a certain milestone but it's usually just in one ear and out the other. Our goalposts are also constantly being moved due to uncertain future expenses of our son who's still only 6 years old. So far he isn't interested in sports or other activities even though we've tried. We are also in the middle of our prime earning years and work-life balance is ideal. We are taking things one year at a time until it is no longer favorable to us. Eventually we will get to a point where sacrificing our time for more money doesn't make sense anymore. We will enjoy the ride until we figure that out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Lake on February 06, 2024, 06:18:49 PM

Hello all.  Well this is my first post and I suppose this is a great place to start.  I found MMM in 2013 and can’t remember how soon after I joined the forum but it wasn’t long. So consequently I’ve followed a lot of your stories and weirdly know a lot about these internet rock stars posting here. Net Worth $2,176.000.00. We are renters so no home equity as we just moved back to home for me. We went from a low cost of living state to probably a medium high state (Minnesota). I’m 55 and retired and my wife is 48 and still working remotely.

So somehow we have found ourselves being multi millionaires. I know in the race to a million thread people show up and are amazed by the caviar and fancy table cloths. In this thread I imagine everyone shows up to the meetings wearing their best Costco clothes and then head home to swim in their vaults filled with gold coins like Scrooge McDuck used to:) Like many here for the most part I don’t feel rich. I’m still the same person that moved 5 states away after college graduation to start my $19,000/ yr career with $30 in my pocket. Although, if I really challenge myself I know I’m out of touch with the average person. I no longer go to the grocery store having to add up purchases to stay under what is left in my checking account. Or worry about how much utilities are going to cost this month. I think having conversations with people in different walks of life helps with the gratitude etc.

I guess ever since I can remember I felt I wanted to be a “millionaire “. I remember meeting with my college advisor when I first got to school in the fall of 1986. She asked what I wanted to do with my Hotel and Restaurant Management Degree I was going to get. I said I wanted to be a millionaire. And she laughed. Very hard. Well look at me now😀. Although to be fair I had to look up what a million dollars in 1986 would be now and got three quick google answers and I settled on the middle one of $2,700,000.  So I guess that’s the next goal. Maybe then I’ll really feel rich. Although I’m not sure I’ll ever be able to actively feel rich. Just free. And I do very much feel free and that feeling is priceless.

How we got here really was being more intentional about 10 years ago. I had gone through a very expensive divorce, got cancer, became a single parent and living in a huge house I couldn’t afford during 2008. Even though that was probably my financial bottom those 4 years with my daughter was my probably favorite time. So many happy memories. Just as I was slowly climbing out of the financial hole, I was laid off. I worked for a pharmaceutical company. It’s odd how sometimes something happens that you think is terrible. Only to end up being something amazing. During my layoff WARN period I was able to look for jobs in the company in other areas. I found one and with 1 day notice packed up and moved to Kansas with my daughter. Coincidentally this was where my daughter’s mom lived and not only did this force her to have a relationship with our daughter but it’s also where I ended up finding my current wife. In the interest of space and trying not to bore anyone. This move ignited my desire to never be vulnerable to a job again if I could help it. Found the F.I.R.E movement, started tracking monthly net worth, saved much more than we earned, invested mostly wisely but sprinkled in some painful learning experiences and here we are. It worked.

8 years later I was laid off for the final time. I wanted to make it to 55 for my pension and health care. But made it to 53 with one year of severance and a bridge to retirement. Of course since retirement my net worth hit an all time high that January 1 of 2021 then cratered. I had to buy a car during the crazy COVID you buy the only car left on their delivery truck arriving in 30 days or nothing. Which made me have to eat crow with all of the family members I scolded for buying new. Used cars at this time were just as expensive. But I wasn’t worried the math told me my reverse equity glide path packed with bonds would help me during the market swoon. Whoops. At least cost of living was low. Oh well, in hindsight during the roughest months I was less worried as I kept double checking my numbers and more taking it like Captain Dan during the storm in Forest Gump. The reality was I had enough cash with dividends to last I until last July when my lump sum pension hit my IRA and I started my 72t distributions. Inflation can be highly personal and even with a costly move to a more expensive state this years budget is only 2% higher than when I retired about 2.5 years ago. And true to my handle we now spend our summers at a lake cabin where I grew up in the summers. And our winter is in a very popular tourist city with a ton of outdoor things to do. I’m in the city my aging parents live in. My wife should join me in 3 years in retirement. She’s 7 years younger than me and we nominally keep finances separate. She doesn’t want to retire until she has about the same amount invested as I had when I retired. Well if you made it this far you deserve a medal and I’d better shut this down before I start another chapter. Sorry for such a long post and thanks for letting me in the club!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ca-rn on February 06, 2024, 06:59:05 PM

With the run up, I have hit and exceeded my FIRE goal last month! - I can't share this w/anyone in IRL. 
But still plan to work part time until I can access 401k via rule of 55.

Learned that pension can be rolled over (lump sum about 300k) to IRA. For some reason I thought it could only be lump sum'd as cash w/lots of taxes to be paid vs monthly payouts.

I don't feel different- I know mentally, I have more than enough coupled with more stress(???) about how to manage pretax money which will now be over 1 million after including the lump sum pension.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: TempusFugit on February 06, 2024, 07:16:52 PM

Quote from: ca-rn on February 06, 2024, 06:59:05 PM

With the run up, I have hit and exceeded my FIRE goal last month! - I can't share this w/anyone in IRL. 
But still plan to work part time until I can access 401k via rule of 55.

Learned that pension can be rolled over (lump sum about 300k) to IRA. For some reason I thought it could only be lump sum'd as cash w/lots of taxes to be paid vs monthly payouts.

I don't feel different- I know mentally, I have more than enough coupled with more stress(???) about how to manage pretax money which will now be over 1 million after including the lump sum pension.

Congrats on the goal achievement! 

I also have a pension worth about 150k that can be rolled into an IRA and that’s what I had been planning to do, but I’m experimenting with different scenarios in my retirement planning software and it seems to give me better results so far when I take it as an annuity rather than lump sum.  Of course that’s driven by my assumptions about rate of return in the markets, so if I tweak those inputs I think it would come out different. 

Are you planning to work part time in your current profession or just as a more vague idea of doing something part time? 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on February 06, 2024, 08:41:47 PM

Quote from: Lake on February 06, 2024, 06:18:49 PM

Hello all. 

<snip>

Well if you made it this far you deserve a medal and I’d better shut this down before I start another chapter. Sorry for such a long post and thanks for letting me in the club!

Do I come collect this medal at your cabin???

I’m lusting over an island home these days…thanks for the story and glad it all worked out for you.

I had a similar feeling of never wanting to need a job again…during a layoff period around 2014 (crazy that was 10 years ago)…funny enough during the next one, I volunteered for a layoff and the company paid severance and moved me closer to that island home I’ve always wanted.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 06, 2024, 09:04:44 PM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on February 06, 2024, 08:41:47 PM

Quote from: Lake on February 06, 2024, 06:18:49 PM

Hello all. 

<snip>

Well if you made it this far you deserve a medal and I’d better shut this down before I start another chapter. Sorry for such a long post and thanks for letting me in the club!

Do I come collect this medal at your cabin???

I’m lusting over an island home these days…thanks for the story and glad it all worked out for you.

I had a similar feeling of never wanting to need a job again…during a layoff period around 2014 (crazy that was 10 years ago)…funny enough during the next one, I volunteered for a layoff and the company paid severance and moved me closer to that island home I’ve always wanted.

I say quite often.. The best job to have is the one you don't need.

I've had quite  a few very enjoyable hobby jobs AFTER I retired..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on February 07, 2024, 07:27:27 AM

Agreed.  Work is way better when you don’t need the money.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on February 07, 2024, 07:44:31 AM

Pre retirement, I had all kinds of jobs I was going to do for fun and to qualify for Roth contributions.  Now that I've been out for 7 months, if I were offered a job at $1000 an hour, I'd turn it down.  I don't need it.  Go away.  But I did not retire early.  I was 66 when I called it quits.  I definitely should have done it 5 years earlier but convincing DW was impossible.  She once said that if we had $100B, we wouldn't have enough.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on February 07, 2024, 08:22:56 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 07, 2024, 07:44:31 AM

Pre retirement, I had all kinds of jobs I was going to do for fun and to qualify for Roth contributions.  Now that I've been out for 7 months, if I were offered a job at $1000 an hour, I'd turn it down.  I don't need it.  Go away.  But I did not retire early.  I was 66 when I called it quits.  I definitely should have done it 5 years earlier but convincing DW was impossible.  She once said that if we had $100B, we wouldn't have enough.

A hundred billion ain't what it used to be.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: markbike528CBX on February 07, 2024, 11:29:43 AM

Quote from: dividendman on February 07, 2024, 08:22:56 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on February 07, 2024, 07:44:31 AM

Pre retirement, I had all kinds of jobs I was going to do for fun and to qualify for Roth contributions.  Now that I've been out for 7 months, if I were offered a job at $1000 an hour, I'd turn it down.  I don't need it.  Go away.  But I did not retire early.  I was 66 when I called it quits.  I definitely should have done it 5 years earlier but convincing DW was impossible.  She once said that if we had $100B, we wouldn't have enough.

A hundred billion ain't what it used to be.

“A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking real money." Attributed to Senator Everett McKinley

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 07, 2024, 03:33:36 PM

Quote from: jsap819 on February 06, 2024, 06:03:14 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 06, 2024, 04:11:42 PM

Quote from: couponvan on February 06, 2024, 03:25:23 PM

Quote from: jsap819 on February 06, 2024, 12:35:12 PM

Just peeking in to say I cracked the $2M total net worth and consider myself a multimillionaire :P. Can't really tell anyone else besides the wife so I wanted to share this with the community that has helped me achieve this milestone that I thought was unattainable. Next goal is to achieve this status with LNW. Currently sitting on $1.45M.

Welcome to the party! My goal used to be $2 million and a paid off $500,000 house. Lifestyle creep and/or inflation has me moving the goal posts.

I know the feeling. I used to count the LNW + net present value of future pensions and house to come up with our net worth. As time went on I stopped counting the pension, then the house (don't intend to sell plus we need a place to live) so now down to just the investments.

My Wife won't let me tell her how much we have as the number is overwhelming to her.. Of course I let it slip every couple of years just to watch her have a kind of mini fit..:)

Unfortunately, my wife also feels the same. I usually update her a couple of times a year whenever we reach a certain milestone but it's usually just in one ear and out the other. Our goalposts are also constantly being moved due to uncertain future expenses of our son who's still only 6 years old. So far he isn't interested in sports or other activities even though we've tried. We are also in the middle of our prime earning years and work-life balance is ideal. We are taking things one year at a time until it is no longer favorable to us. Eventually we will get to a point where sacrificing our time for more money doesn't make sense anymore. We will enjoy the ride until we figure that out.

Yeah, I tell my wife we are worth almost $5M and she still gets aggravated at me for throwing out an empty butter container ("do you know how much tupperware costs?").  She definitely dislikes the idea of me being retired at 51 and that I should have a job....luckily the <20 hr/wk one from home I do have is best for me too (after working 60-70 hrs/wk for so long I realized I wouldn't know what to do all day fully retired, its not like I had much time for hobbies et al to develop... the 20 hrs/wk schedule seems to leave me with the right amount of time for everything else I want to do so will prob keep doing it for a while.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 07, 2024, 05:56:50 PM

So I've been busy playing in Florida. I don't remember if I've posted about the Florida Trail hike yet. I'll get to it if I haven't. Anyway just finished up a 322 mile Central Florida gravel bikepacking race today.

It took me nearly 100 hours to ride 322 miles of the 2024 Huracan 300 LiTe. I did not use my Garmin Mini for Track Leaders, because this year I was not riding for record. I was out there for the experience with the bikepacking community and personal learning. It did not disappoint. For my route I started here at home. The Chicken King in Hernando is my mile 0 and the official route mile 30. My friend David and I were watching
our friend Adam for the first 30 miles and timing our start to coinside. All was fine till the first 1000 feet when my left crank arm and pedal came off. I put it back on with an Allen wrench on my bike tool. It lasted for two miles and came off again. I tried to get it tighter this time. We finally got on route and found Adam. I told him what happened and told him I needed to stop in Inverness at a bike shop to torque it correctly. That required a several mile detour. I borrowed the tool and we headed back to the route. We stayed together till almost reaching Lake Lindsey Mall. I caught up with them there for lunch. The kitchen crew there had their work cut out for them with all the hungry riders. I told Adam and David to ride on ahead. They were faster and I'd try to catch them at Ford Camp for the night. They unfortunately passed up the spot by 10 miles. I decided to stay. Four other cyclists shared the camp for the night. The next morning before daylight rain starting hitting my tent. I packed up in the rain and started riding. We soon encountered a section of trail that had been plowed. It was mostly hike-a-bike for me and the rain got heavier. Eventually the route got better and the sun came out. There was more rain to come however. On the way to Clermont I got a flat tire. Another rider stopped to assist. He helped me patch the tube and I reassembled my rear wheel. Karlos had asked a week prior if I was set up tubeless. The look he gave me said it all. About the time I reached the Lake Apaoka Trail I started losing air again. I used a trailside repair station to refill the tire and ride on to the brewery. I saw dark clouds gathering and decided to book a hotel for the night. I changed to a spare tube in an AutoZone parking lot after more attempts at patching the first one. Rain hit me again as I reassembled my wheel. It held fine with a new tube. I checked I to my hotel room, showered, cooked some of my trail food and collapsed as it was late. The next morning I found a bike shop and bought a replacement tube. I was then on to Apoka. There is a mountain there! At Apoka I went to Publix and bought an 8 piece fried chicken. I guarded the bikes of other rides as they shopped. I ate 5 pieces of chicken and packed the rest. Near Kelly Park I got turned around and had an encounter with a grizzled Florida Cracker Lady on an ATV. I told her I was lost. She said no, you're trespassing and I am armed. I immediately thought of two things, the first rule of Fight Club and the song, "Give Me Three Steps!" I was out like a rocket ship. Soon I saw two Huracan riders turn in front of me. I caught up to the one in rear. I asked if they knew where they were going? He said he wasn't sure. I said that's OK, at least it's more targets. I followed them until reaching the bike trail along Highway 46. Then the rain hit again. They stopped at a trailhead pavilion and I kept going. Soon I was at Bear Pond and I knew there was a Florida Trail shelter nearby. I reached the shelter just as the rain ended. There was nobody there, no hikers or bikers. I dumped my stuff in the shelter and found enough dry wood for a campfire. Unfortunately there was nobody to share my fire. I packed up the next morning after a great night. It was nearly a mile off route to the shelter and I saw no other bike tracks in the soft sugar sand. The weather was crisp and bright as I ride alone through the beautiful preserve. Exiting the preserve was Highway 44 and heavy traffic. I beared through it till reaching Royal Trails Road. Much better. From there we turned into a sand road with a road grader working it. Adam and Dave had ridden it the day before and it was rain packed. I was ridding in flour until I just had to get off and push. The reward was Pizza at Paloma Pizza not far away. While there I ran into five hikers I started the Florida Trail with in Big Cypress Preserve on January 5th. I visited with them quite a while and really wanted to ditch the bike and grab my backpack to go with them. But I had miles to make. All was good until later that night my phone GPS signal went crazy. It would jump all over. I turned to my Garmin 1030 computer which I hate. I also called Adam and David for directions. I finally reached Marshal Swamp Trailhead well after dark. I had planned to rest at the pavilion a few hours and try to make Shangri-La Campground. As I was walking to the bathroom there a dog started barking. A 5th wheel camper was parked across a fence from the bathroom. I heard the owner tell the dog to, "Get him... he knows he's not supposed to be here!" For the second day in a row, First Rule of Fight-Club and Give Me Three Steps came to mind immediately. I exited the area. I looked on my phone and found a $43 motel room 4 miles away. I booked it on the spot and peddled with abandon. I checked in and grabbed a quick Steak and Shake burger minutes before closing. I haven't stayed in such a horrible motel in decades. The Silver Springs Mustang OYO. Don't go there! Just don't. I ate, showered and slept. I don't think I will have any long term ill effects from my stay but I'll keep you posted. I got back on route and it wasn't too long till I reached the beautiful Santos Trails. I finally relaxed because I knew the end wasn't too far. I reached Shangri-La Campground and nearly everyone was gone. A group was packing up and gave me a cold beer. It was perfect and I wished them well on their trip back to Richmond, VA. All that I needed to do now was ride home. On the way back I dropped back into my road scavenger mode. I found a half of a gallon of termite and bug pesticide that was in the ditch. I knew the value and the tough plastic container was intact. I moved my tent from my fork rack and strapped the jug in it's place. I know that's well over $100, probably $200 worth of material. Do not worry I am a chemical professional and only bugs will be harmed. I wanted to treat my house this week anyway. The universe has a way, we say, "The Trail Provides." Anyway, I'm showered and my grimy gear is washed. I'll soon be headed back to the Louisiana home as I miss the family. With my feet hiking the Florida Trail for 150 miles, my training rides and the Huracan 300 I've propelled myself about 700 miles in the last month. That's not bad for a 55 year old fat guy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ca-rn on February 08, 2024, 12:52:53 PM

Quote from: TempusFugit on February 06, 2024, 07:16:52 PM

Quote from: ca-rn on February 06, 2024, 06:59:05 PM

With the run up, I have hit and exceeded my FIRE goal last month! - I can't share this w/anyone in IRL. 
But still plan to work part time until I can access 401k via rule of 55.

Learned that pension can be rolled over (lump sum about 300k) to IRA. For some reason I thought it could only be lump sum'd as cash w/lots of taxes to be paid vs monthly payouts.

I don't feel different- I know mentally, I have more than enough coupled with more stress(???) about how to manage pretax money which will now be over 1 million after including the lump sum pension.

Congrats on the goal achievement! 

I also have a pension worth about 150k that can be rolled into an IRA and that’s what I had been planning to do, but I’m experimenting with different scenarios in my retirement planning software and it seems to give me better results so far when I take it as an annuity rather than lump sum.  Of course that’s driven by my assumptions about rate of return in the markets, so if I tweak those inputs I think it would come out different. 

Are you planning to work part time in your current profession or just as a more vague idea of doing something part time?

Thank you! 
I've been working part time in my current position (previously worked full time) for a few years now- CoastFIRE.  Plus it provides healthcare, vacation and sick days! 
Plan to roll 500-700k from 401k/pension rollover into RothIRA which will eliminate any ACA subsidies so working PT until 55 also saves me at least 12k/year (for equivalent coverage).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 09, 2024, 10:20:06 AM

Damn! I haven't checked into this thread in a bit, but wow, you guys are definitely not letting life pass you by. Clearly, this is where the badasses congregate. I'm looking forward to more great stories. Wowza!

And @Lake, that could be the best de-lurking post ever!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Lake on February 09, 2024, 03:49:34 PM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on February 06, 2024, 08:41:47 PM

Quote from: Lake on February 06, 2024, 06:18:49 PM

Hello all. 

<snip>

Well if you made it this far you deserve a medal and I’d better shut this down before I start another chapter. Sorry for such a long post and thanks for letting me in the club!

Do I come collect this medal at your cabin???


I’m lusting over an island home these days…thanks for the story and glad it all worked out for you.

I had a similar feeling of never wanting to need a job again…during a layoff period around 2014 (crazy that was 10 years ago)…funny enough during the next one, I volunteered for a layoff and the company paid severance and moved me closer to that island home I’ve always wanted.

@Simpli-Fi Sure why not. However the medal might be in the shape of a fish. Good luck in finding that island! That would be amazing too but where I’m from the shoulder months of winter would make it difficult to come and go. Although I can think of worse things than being stuck in a nice home on an island. Thanks for the welcome.

@Exflyboy thanks for the comment. I agree the best job is the one you don’t need. As a former lurker I’ve followed your journal for years and have enjoyed the good hearted slings and arrows thrown your way each time you come out of retirement. I get why you’ve done it though. Doing it on your terms and being able to solve hard problems would be fun. I share with you the love of tools and also have a lathe but mine is a wood lathe. I highly recommend you get one as that new hobby will help you take care of your future RMD problems😁.

@Dicey thanks so much for your kind words. As a former lurker in recovery I have to say I have learned so many things from your posts and comments. I really enjoy your perspective and well reasoned posts. Especially how willing you are to help people with your wisdom. I’m highly honored. This forum has been incredibly valuable reading the insights of yours and everyone else that’s taken the time to tell their stories is like a free master class in life. It makes me wonder how many other silent people out there like myself who have benefited. So if you read this and are a frequent poster either in a journal or on various threads for the silent many I thank you.

And finally in other news my daughter was accepted into her Law School of choice. With a very very good scholarship. Looks like tuition is going to cost just under $9,000 / year. Looks like I over saved. My first public MPP!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 09, 2024, 10:33:11 PM

Passed into beyond territory this week for the first time.  I expect we’ll bounce up and down through the upper boundary multiple times in the coming months or years.  Long term, we’ll stay the course and keep letting the little green soldiers do their work.  While we’re both still working, these days we are primary kids activity focused.  Multiple teams for our multiple kids.  I’m coaching one and finding that I care less and less about winning with the younger kids, and more and more about what kind of people they are.  Do they work hard?  Do they bounce back from adversity?  Are they a good teammate?  We’re having a good season, winning more games than we’re losing, and kids are improving.  One hard case seems to be coming around.  Another one is going to have a rough go in life if he doesn’t have a change in attitude.  A couple more weekends and then the season will be over, which is good.  I have some projects in the house and yard and driveway that need attention, and I can’t bring myself to hire someone for them regardless of the number in the spreadsheet.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on February 10, 2024, 01:04:57 PM

Quote from: Lake on February 09, 2024, 03:49:34 PM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on February 06, 2024, 08:41:47 PM

Quote from: Lake on February 06, 2024, 06:18:49 PM

Hello all. 

<snip>

Well if you made it this far you deserve a medal and I’d better shut this down before I start another chapter. Sorry for such a long post and thanks for letting me in the club!

Do I come collect this medal at your cabin???


I’m lusting over an island home these days…thanks for the story and glad it all worked out for you.

I had a similar feeling of never wanting to need a job again…during a layoff period around 2014 (crazy that was 10 years ago)…funny enough during the next one, I volunteered for a layoff and the company paid severance and moved me closer to that island home I’ve always wanted.

@Simpli-Fi Sure why not. However the medal might be in the shape of a fish. Good luck in finding that island! That would be amazing too but where I’m from the shoulder months of winter would make it difficult to come and go. Although I can think of worse things than being stuck in a nice home on an island. Thanks for the welcome.

@Exflyboy thanks for the comment. I agree the best job is the one you don’t need. As a former lurker I’ve followed your journal for years and have enjoyed the good hearted slings and arrows thrown your way each time you come out of retirement. I get why you’ve done it though. Doing it on your terms and being able to solve hard problems would be fun. I share with you the love of tools and also have a lathe but mine is a wood lathe. I highly recommend you get one as that new hobby will help you take care of your future RMD problems😁.

@Dicey thanks so much for your kind words. As a former lurker in recovery I have to say I have learned so many things from your posts and comments. I really enjoy your perspective and well reasoned posts. Especially how willing you are to help people with your wisdom. I’m highly honored. This forum has been incredibly valuable reading the insights of yours and everyone else that’s taken the time to tell their stories is like a free master class in life. It makes me wonder how many other silent people out there like myself who have benefited. So if you read this and are a frequent poster either in a journal or on various threads for the silent many I thank you.

And finally in other news my daughter was accepted into her Law School of choice. With a very very good scholarship. Looks like tuition is going to cost just under $9,000 / year. Looks like I over saved. My first public MPP!

I agree, Lake, this thread has been invaluable to me over the years and has given me motivation to first make it into this group and then contribute.  However, I don't contribute nearly as much as some of the others here do.  There is a great core group here!

Congrats to your daughter!  Both of my kids are graduating from college this spring.  Daughter is getting a masters degree and is working towards becoming a licenced therapist.   Our son will get his undergraduate degree this spring with a double major in physics and astrophysics ( I have no idea where he got that from as my wife and I are NOT physics people...at all ).   

Our son has been applying to quite a few PhD programs in Space Physics.  It has been a long process.  However, he just found out he was accepted to the space physics program at Dartmouth college.  He is waiting on a few others.   This is a HUGE load off of him...and us, because this is a fully paid graduate school gig, with a nice stipend.   Meaning...we are off the hook to pay for further college costs!     

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 10, 2024, 01:45:04 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 09, 2024, 10:33:11 PM

Passed into beyond territory this week for the first time.  I expect we’ll bounce up and down through the upper boundary multiple times in the coming months or years.  Long term, we’ll stay the course and keep letting the little green soldiers do their work.  While we’re both still working, these days we are primary kids activity focused.  Multiple teams for our multiple kids.  I’m coaching one and finding that I care less and less about winning with the younger kids, and more and more about what kind of people they are.  Do they work hard?  Do they bounce back from adversity?  Are they a good teammate?  We’re having a good season, winning more games than we’re losing, and kids are improving.  One hard case seems to be coming around.  Another one is going to have a rough go in life if he doesn’t have a change in attitude.  A couple more weekends and then the season will be over, which is good.  I have some projects in the house and yard and driveway that need attention, and I can’t bring myself to hire someone for them regardless of the number in the spreadsheet.

Very nice but I feel like such an under-achiever...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 10, 2024, 08:44:45 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 10, 2024, 01:45:04 PM

Very nice but I feel like such an under-achiever...:)

Depends on how you judge achievement. You have the sense to not work full time anymore. I’m still working on that one!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Arbitrage on February 11, 2024, 11:54:08 AM

Quote from: couponvan on February 06, 2024, 03:25:23 PM

Quote from: jsap819 on February 06, 2024, 12:35:12 PM

Just peeking in to say I cracked the $2M total net worth and consider myself a multimillionaire :P. Can't really tell anyone else besides the wife so I wanted to share this with the community that has helped me achieve this milestone that I thought was unattainable. Next goal is to achieve this status with LNW. Currently sitting on $1.45M.

Welcome to the party! My goal used to be $2 million and a paid off $500,000 house. Lifestyle creep and/or inflation has me moving the goal posts.

My original goal was $1.25M with paid-off house, or the equivalent.  We anticipated being able to use our CA home equity to buy a house free and clear when we relocated, but house prices skyrocketed where we relocated to (before we bought) and the new house cost far more than originally anticipated.  Of course, since we secured part-time remote work, I'd say we relaxed the price constraints on the house somewhat.  Now at $2M with a half mil in debt, so theoretically above that initial goal, though we've definitely experienced enough inflation that we'd probably need close to $1.5M net at this point. 

Waiting/hoping for the market to give us a nice big push to that 'comfort point,' but once that happens we might just find more reasons that we're not quite comfortable giving up the part-time work completely.  OMY, but a pretty damn nice OMY since our lives are pretty good, living in an outdoorsy paradise and working half-time from home.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 11, 2024, 10:06:36 PM

Well I’m just shy of 17 months to go.  For giggles, I plugged my full retirement age date into a countdown calculator.  That god I’m not working for another 7,777 days.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: moof on February 12, 2024, 12:48:17 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on February 11, 2024, 10:06:36 PM

Well I’m just shy of 17 months to go.  For giggles, I plugged my full retirement age date into a countdown calculator.  That god I’m not working for another 7,777 days.

Fun, I’ll play.  7605 days for me.  Thinking of quitting tomorrow, not sure if my wife will be happy with me if I do…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on February 12, 2024, 08:21:35 AM

I've been lurking in this thread for a while because theoretical value of pensions plus home equity bumps me here.

However, when I add my emergency/house repairs fund into my investments, LNW has also been across the finish line for 2 weeks in a row now.  (I have that fund earmarked for specific expenses later this year, so I've not been including it in "race" thread tracking.)

Like many others, there's no one I can share this with IRL, but it makes for an excellent Valentine's Day present to myself.  I celebrated by buying myself a container of chocolate covered strawberries at Costco.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 12, 2024, 09:12:56 AM

I entered this race using fuzzy math, mostly from my pension and home equity.  I now am here without the fuzzy Math.  I never really thought I’d get to this spot honestly.  With fuzzy math I’m “beyond now”.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 12, 2024, 11:19:36 AM

Quote from: Turtle on February 12, 2024, 08:21:35 AM

I've been lurking in this thread for a while because theoretical value of pensions plus home equity bumps me here.

However, when I add my emergency/house repairs fund into my investments, LNW has also been across the finish line for 2 weeks in a row now.  (I have that fund earmarked for specific expenses later this year, so I've not been including it in "race" thread tracking.)

Like many others, there's no one I can share this with IRL, but it makes for an excellent Valentine's Day present to myself.  I celebrated by buying myself a container of chocolate covered strawberries at Costco.

Congratulations! The power of compounding is so incredible that you will soon be well past the nominal boundaries of this group :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on February 12, 2024, 12:25:00 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on February 12, 2024, 11:19:36 AM

Quote from: Turtle on February 12, 2024, 08:21:35 AM

I've been lurking in this thread for a while because theoretical value of pensions plus home equity bumps me here.

However, when I add my emergency/house repairs fund into my investments, LNW has also been across the finish line for 2 weeks in a row now.  (I have that fund earmarked for specific expenses later this year, so I've not been including it in "race" thread tracking.)

Like many others, there's no one I can share this with IRL, but it makes for an excellent Valentine's Day present to myself.  I celebrated by buying myself a container of chocolate covered strawberries at Costco.

Congratulations! The power of compounding is so incredible that you will soon be well past the nominal boundaries of this group :-)

Thank you!  Planning on retiring within the next two years, so the growth is likely to slow down significantly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 12, 2024, 01:25:28 PM

Ahh the wonders of "fuzzy math".

around $100k in SS and pensions = $2.5M at 4%... YOU CAN'T DO THAT.. you have to do a NPV calc.. Yeah but if you have no heirs to leave the stash to then its worth $2.5M to ME!

Add the value of the house and Yep, My networth has effectively doubled..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Freedomin5 on February 12, 2024, 03:22:12 PM

Years ago when I joined the forum, I would look at this thread from my spot in the 500k to 1M thread and think, I’ll never join the heavy hitters in the upper echelons. But here I am five years later. We just passed 2M today (thank you markets). I can’t quite wrap my mind around the fact that we are officially multimillionaires.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 12, 2024, 03:31:40 PM

Quote from: Freedomin5 on February 12, 2024, 03:22:12 PM

Years ago when I joined the forum, I would look at this thread from my spot in the 500k to 1M thread and think, I’ll never join the heavy hitters in the upper echelons. But here I am five years later. We just passed 2M today (thank you markets). I can’t quite wrap my mind around the fact that we are officially multimillionaires.

Congratulations!.. I don't think I ever really wrapped my head around it. I still behave like I'm poor, I think for the first time last week I walked into a restaurant and ordered without looking at the menu.. I've been in this thread for 5 years or so and about a year away from "Beyond" territory (market depending).

Note, I still look for the best deal or some way to lower the overall price, I think thats just good fiscal practice and a bit of an optimsation game honestly.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: mm1970 on February 12, 2024, 05:58:15 PM

Quote from: Freedomin5 on February 12, 2024, 03:22:12 PM

Years ago when I joined the forum, I would look at this thread from my spot in the 500k to 1M thread and think, I’ll never join the heavy hitters in the upper echelons. But here I am five years later. We just passed 2M today (thank you markets). I can’t quite wrap my mind around the fact that we are officially multimillionaires.

Yup.  I was excited to hit this group and then they made it "and beyond" right when we qualified. I do not pay that much attention, honestly.  However, a financial check up this week and we are officially in the "and beyond".

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 12, 2024, 07:21:59 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 12, 2024, 03:31:40 PM

Quote from: Freedomin5 on February 12, 2024, 03:22:12 PM

Years ago when I joined the forum, I would look at this thread from my spot in the 500k to 1M thread and think, I’ll never join the heavy hitters in the upper echelons. But here I am five years later. We just passed 2M today (thank you markets). I can’t quite wrap my mind around the fact that we are officially multimillionaires.

Congratulations!.. I don't think I ever really wrapped my head around it. I still behave like I'm poor, I think for the first time last week I walked into a restaurant and ordered without looking at the menu.. I've been in this thread for 5 years or so and about a year away from "Beyond" territory (market depending).

Note, I still look for the best deal or some way to lower the overall price, I think thats just good fiscal practice and a bit of an optimsation game honestly.

I went to a writer's group meeting downtown this evening.  I parked 5 blocks away because I wanted to park for free rather than pay $1/hour for an hour. 

And then I'll spend lots of money on a book or a tool or art supplies.

Face it, I'm just weird.  Inconsistent in how I'm weird, but still weird.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on February 12, 2024, 08:39:50 PM

A 5 block walk is nice!

I mostly act like I’m poor…however lately I’m actively trying to change that.  I used to listen ramit’s podcast…then Quit when he started advertising, but loved the discussions about changing the psychology of money/spending.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 13, 2024, 03:53:20 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on February 12, 2024, 08:39:50 PM

A 5 block walk is nice!

I mostly act like I’m poor…however lately I’m actively trying to change that.  I used to listen ramit’s podcast…then Quit when he started advertising, but loved the discussions about changing the psychology of money/spending.

Some useful thoughts on spending money by Morgan Housel (also covered on his podcast): https://collabfund.com/blog/a-few-thoughts-on-spending-money/

Quote

At the same time, some wealthy people struggle to spend money on things that would make them happy because “I’m a saver” becomes such an ingrained part of their identity. What you intended to be a strategy to achieve a better life turns into an ideology you are beholden to.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 13, 2024, 07:01:16 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 12, 2024, 07:21:59 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 12, 2024, 03:31:40 PM

Quote from: Freedomin5 on February 12, 2024, 03:22:12 PM

Years ago when I joined the forum, I would look at this thread from my spot in the 500k to 1M thread and think, I’ll never join the heavy hitters in the upper echelons. But here I am five years later. We just passed 2M today (thank you markets). I can’t quite wrap my mind around the fact that we are officially multimillionaires.

Congratulations!.. I don't think I ever really wrapped my head around it. I still behave like I'm poor, I think for the first time last week I walked into a restaurant and ordered without looking at the menu.. I've been in this thread for 5 years or so and about a year away from "Beyond" territory (market depending).

Note, I still look for the best deal or some way to lower the overall price, I think thats just good fiscal practice and a bit of an optimsation game honestly.

I went to a writer's group meeting downtown this evening.  I parked 5 blocks away because I wanted to park for free rather than pay $1/hour for an hour. 

And then I'll spend lots of money on a book or a tool or art supplies.

Face it, I'm just weird.  Inconsistent in how I'm weird, but still weird.

This jives with what I've often found....that saving money often equates to other benefits like 1) being less lazy, 2) producing less waste, 3) learning new skills, 4) making sure the job is done right vs hiring it out to someone who doesn't care as much, etc etc etc....i.e. I probably will never use the $1 saved but I'd definitely benefit from an additional 5 block walk ....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on February 13, 2024, 09:02:47 AM

Ugh. I've got a rich person problem. Taking my kids on spring break (as well as a summer trip) is a priority for us. By March-April we are itching to go someplace warm with some actual sun. But man, it's expensive!! No matter where we go (that's warm) it's $8k for 4 people. That's insane to me. But YOLO right?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 13, 2024, 09:26:58 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 13, 2024, 09:02:47 AM

Ugh. I've got a rich person problem. Taking my kids on spring break (as well as a summer trip) is a priority for us. By March-April we are itching to go someplace warm with some actual sun. But man, it's expensive!! No matter where we go (that's warm) it's $8k for 4 people. That's insane to me. But YOLO right?

Check out RootOfGood.com.   He really knows how to stretch a vacation dollar.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on February 13, 2024, 10:17:19 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 13, 2024, 09:02:47 AM

Ugh. I've got a rich person problem. Taking my kids on spring break (as well as a summer trip) is a priority for us. By March-April we are itching to go someplace warm with some actual sun. But man, it's expensive!! No matter where we go (that's warm) it's $8k for 4 people. That's insane to me. But YOLO right?

Personally, I would prefer a staycation with an indoor pool over spring break travel. Crowds, often delays due to late winter storms bleh. Even in college I generally just picked up extra hours rather than deal with all that.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 13, 2024, 12:49:56 PM

Quote from: ixtap on February 13, 2024, 10:17:19 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 13, 2024, 09:02:47 AM

Ugh. I've got a rich person problem. Taking my kids on spring break (as well as a summer trip) is a priority for us. By March-April we are itching to go someplace warm with some actual sun. But man, it's expensive!! No matter where we go (that's warm) it's $8k for 4 people. That's insane to me. But YOLO right?

Personally, I would prefer a staycation with an indoor pool over spring break travel. Crowds, often delays due to late winter storms bleh. Even in college I generally just picked up extra hours rather than deal with all that.

It's a perplexing problem, but here's my 2 cents...  Pinch your nose and take those vacations when the kids are younger, it only gets harder to get them to go later on, as well as possibly getting more expensive.  We were able to pull off one hotel room with pre-teens, nowadays that would be no fun at all...

Once you get in the habit of 'its too busy, it's too expensive, it's too much hassle, etc.' then you'll always find excuses and suddenly realize your window of opportunity has closed.  Take lots of pictures and ignore the price tags, as long as your FI isn't permanently dented then these discretionary expenses can be the first ones to cut if we ultimately do have a recession...  I've never once regretted all the expensive stuff we did 10 years ago, although I'd have another million or two if we'd invested instead.  The memories truly are priceless!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on February 13, 2024, 12:51:18 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 13, 2024, 09:02:47 AM

Ugh. I've got a rich person problem. Taking my kids on spring break (as well as a summer trip) is a priority for us. By March-April we are itching to go someplace warm with some actual sun. But man, it's expensive!! No matter where we go (that's warm) it's $8k for 4 people. That's insane to me. But YOLO right?

That’s why we did epic trips to China, Italy, and Spain. It was cheaper than Florida. Book yourself a warm week at the end of this month for cheap and get yourself warm. Use Skyscanner and check “everywhere” around the dates you can travel - you might be surprised. I will be in Puerto Rico for a February/March early bday treat.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: mm1970 on February 13, 2024, 04:00:28 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 13, 2024, 09:02:47 AM

Ugh. I've got a rich person problem. Taking my kids on spring break (as well as a summer trip) is a priority for us. By March-April we are itching to go someplace warm with some actual sun. But man, it's expensive!! No matter where we go (that's warm) it's $8k for 4 people. That's insane to me. But YOLO right?

It does seem insane - but that's about what our trip to Denmark cost 5 years ago. 

I have been getting around this lately by staycationing multiple times per year - so I'm tired.  And I'm tired of planning the trips.  KWIM?

So, I plan fewer trips:
October 2023: Moab. ALL BY MYSELF... Probably about $1000 when you add up gas, camping, 2 hotels on the drive out and back, food.
Thanksgiving 2023:  Staycation
Christmas 2023: Staycation - 3 weeks.  Husband worked most of the time, and he's overworked and stressed out.  Can't fix that for you ma dude.
January 2024: 2 day weekend to run an 8 mile race. A little under $1000 (the hotel was $350/night, but it was SWEET.)  Hubs, me, 1 kid.  Relaxing.
March 2024: Nothing.  I don't want to plan anything.  Maybe we'll paint the living room.  Maybe we'll visit whatever colleges DS17 gets into, if he knows by then.
Summer 2024:  In planning process.  The typical 2 weeks to visit family on the East coast, and throwing in a few days in DC at the end.  So, this is the big trip.   I literally don't care how expensive the plane tickets are (last year they were $1000 each.  For PA and NY.  Srsly.)  Right now they are looking like $600 if I cheap out and $800 if I select the best itinerary (which is what I will do), plus rental car, plus hotel for 2 nights in DC.
October 2024: MOAB

So, TLDR - I pick one big expensive trip a year. Honestly, I totally want to go to Hawaii.  But I do not want to plan this trip.  So I will not.  The big trip is to the East Coast bc of aging and ill parents. So, I would recommend taking the big trips with the kids before you end up in that merry go round.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 13, 2024, 07:05:41 PM

@mm1970 Going to HI in April an will SCUBA dive with the Manta Rays.. Nah, nah, ne, nah, nah..:)

I bet for me Moab 23 was about $400 in gas alone driving that ridiculous hedonostic SUV. So if you did the whole thing for $1000 with hotel stays I'd say you did pretty good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on February 13, 2024, 07:12:13 PM

Quote from: couponvan on February 13, 2024, 12:51:18 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 13, 2024, 09:02:47 AM

Ugh. I've got a rich person problem. Taking my kids on spring break (as well as a summer trip) is a priority for us. By March-April we are itching to go someplace warm with some actual sun. But man, it's expensive!! No matter where we go (that's warm) it's $8k for 4 people. That's insane to me. But YOLO right?

That’s why we did epic trips to China, Italy, and Spain. It was cheaper than Florida. Book yourself a warm week at the end of this month for cheap and get yourself warm. Use Skyscanner and check “everywhere” around the dates you can travel - you might be surprised. I will be in Puerto Rico for a February/March early bday treat.

We are renting a car- hotels are covered by work, as are the flights. I have a client meeting on Friday, so the whole trip will be around $250. China flights were around $600 with visa (each), but the hotels were only $50 for 5*. Food was first cheap and we hired a driver one day for dirt cheap. Subways were under $1. So don’t let the airfare deter you whe. The hotel/food will be much cheaper. Taiwan in November had higher airfares, but free hotel (points) and super cheap food/entertainment. Egypt in February would have been super inexpensive from a food/airfare/hotel combo, but DH paid for the luxury exclusivity of private access.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 14, 2024, 09:07:03 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 13, 2024, 12:49:56 PM

Quote from: ixtap on February 13, 2024, 10:17:19 AM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 13, 2024, 09:02:47 AM

Ugh. I've got a rich person problem. Taking my kids on spring break (as well as a summer trip) is a priority for us. By March-April we are itching to go someplace warm with some actual sun. But man, it's expensive!! No matter where we go (that's warm) it's $8k for 4 people. That's insane to me. But YOLO right?

Personally, I would prefer a staycation with an indoor pool over spring break travel. Crowds, often delays due to late winter storms bleh. Even in college I generally just picked up extra hours rather than deal with all that.

It's a perplexing problem, but here's my 2 cents...  Pinch your nose and take those vacations when the kids are younger, it only gets harder to get them to go later on, as well as possibly getting more expensive.  We were able to pull off one hotel room with pre-teens, nowadays that would be no fun at all...

Once you get in the habit of 'its too busy, it's too expensive, it's too much hassle, etc.' then you'll always find excuses and suddenly realize your window of opportunity has closed.  Take lots of pictures and ignore the price tags, as long as your FI isn't permanently dented then these discretionary expenses can be the first ones to cut if we ultimately do have a recession...  I've never once regretted all the expensive stuff we did 10 years ago, although I'd have another million or two if we'd invested instead.  The memories truly are priceless!

You have to do it while the kids are around and scheduled sync up.    Went to Hawaii last summer and it was great -got lambasted here bc of the notion that it might cost $15-20k for our family of five for 10 days...it ended up on the lower end.  I think Flights alone were $6k.  Add in AirBNBs, larger rental, etc it gets up there before you even do anything.   Mind-boggling indeed! But we had a great time and did a lot.   

For spring break/winter blues we have done Florida several times.  A couple times we did full weeks and found it too long.   One time we did a long rad trip and stopped in Savanah for a couple days and then to St Augistine for a week - that was a good trip but the long drive was a lot, especially on the way back.   We find that a long weekend to Florida is great and not to crazy as you can fly Frontier or such cheap with backpacks only and our family can handle being in a one room (extended saty hotel) for a few nights as we are only in there to sleep.   

We did vegas spring break once and that was reasonable and hot, vegas was mostly for sleeping /hotel pool - we did a lot there.....grand canyon, lake mead (not sure if there is any water left), hoover dam, some other hikes....the only vegas things we did were dinner, a show and Fremont st.   

It's costly for sure, but in addition to the experiencing new things aspect of travel an added benefit for us as parents is that when we get away they are 100% stuck with us and can't disappear with their friends.  Haha.

I know we can do camping trips, road trips, and stay in motel 6s to save money, and we have done all of those too, but sometimes you have to spend $ to go places.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: mm1970 on February 14, 2024, 10:17:44 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 13, 2024, 07:05:41 PM

@mm1970 Going to HI in April an will SCUBA dive with the Manta Rays.. Nah, nah, ne, nah, nah..:)

I bet for me Moab 23 was about $400 in gas alone driving that ridiculous hedonostic SUV. So if you did the whole thing for $1000 with hotel stays I'd say you did pretty good.

Maybe we'll get to Hawaii once the DS17 is in college so there's only 3 of us, ha!  Yeah, the hotels weren't bad.  I don't stay in super expensive places, but I'm also not going to cheap out either.

@BeanCounter  Expensive trips are...well...expensive.  I have a complicated relationship with them.  Being upper-middle class, I have a ton of friends who travel all over the place - you see the pics on FB and IG.  Europe, Australia, NZ, South Pacific, South America, Skiing in Aspen, etc etc etc.  But MAN flying is so bad for the environment.  A lot of these friends consider themselves environmentalists too, but certainly not all of them.  The thing is, many of these are the same people taking multiple expensive vacations a year. 

Anyway, that's why we do Staycations in addition to a big trip each year.  At one point years ago, it wasn't uncommon for us to fly 3 times a year.  For me now- once is enough, especially considering I'm expected to travel to Asia once/ year, and that's a LOOONG trip.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on February 14, 2024, 11:13:42 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 12, 2024, 07:21:59 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 12, 2024, 03:31:40 PM

Quote from: Freedomin5 on February 12, 2024, 03:22:12 PM

Years ago when I joined the forum, I would look at this thread from my spot in the 500k to 1M thread and think, I’ll never join the heavy hitters in the upper echelons. But here I am five years later. We just passed 2M today (thank you markets). I can’t quite wrap my mind around the fact that we are officially multimillionaires.

Congratulations!.. I don't think I ever really wrapped my head around it. I still behave like I'm poor, I think for the first time last week I walked into a restaurant and ordered without looking at the menu.. I've been in this thread for 5 years or so and about a year away from "Beyond" territory (market depending).

Note, I still look for the best deal or some way to lower the overall price, I think thats just good fiscal practice and a bit of an optimsation game honestly.

I went to a writer's group meeting downtown this evening.  I parked 5 blocks away because I wanted to park for free rather than pay $1/hour for an hour. 

And then I'll spend lots of money on a book or a tool or art supplies.

Face it, I'm just weird.  Inconsistent in how I'm weird, but still weird.

I think a better term for most of us here is "eccentric", and I fit into that category easily. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on February 14, 2024, 11:49:59 AM

Just like we do a lot of frugal things, but then spend stupid money when we want to, we make a lot of environmental choices, then turn around and get on a plane several times a year. 2022 saw two trips in addition to visiting family twice, 2023 one additional trip and 2024 we are planning one additional trip together, plus I am meeting my Mom to visit her older sister.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 14, 2024, 12:11:17 PM

Quote from: mm1970 on February 14, 2024, 10:17:44 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 13, 2024, 07:05:41 PM

@mm1970 Going to HI in April an will SCUBA dive with the Manta Rays.. Nah, nah, ne, nah, nah..:)

I bet for me Moab 23 was about $400 in gas alone driving that ridiculous hedonostic SUV. So if you did the whole thing for $1000 with hotel stays I'd say you did pretty good.

Maybe we'll get to Hawaii once the DS17 is in college so there's only 3 of us, ha!  Yeah, the hotels weren't bad.  I don't stay in super expensive places, but I'm also not going to cheap out either.

@BeanCounter  Expensive trips are...well...expensive.  I have a complicated relationship with them.  Being upper-middle class, I have a ton of friends who travel all over the place - you see the pics on FB and IG.  Europe, Australia, NZ, South Pacific, South America, Skiing in Aspen, etc etc etc.  But MAN flying is so bad for the environment.  A lot of these friends consider themselves environmentalists too, but certainly not all of them.  The thing is, many of these are the same people taking multiple expensive vacations a year. 

Anyway, that's why we do Staycations in addition to a big trip each year.  At one point years ago, it wasn't uncommon for us to fly 3 times a year.  For me now- once is enough, especially considering I'm expected to travel to Asia once/ year, and that's a LOOONG trip.

I have plenty of these same friends.   Think bc they drive an EV (shh, but don't talk about the Large ICE SUV that one of the spouses drives) they are saving the world.  Also ignore the carbon footprint that comes as a result of their 2nd homes and driving their kids to private schools (not in the EV btw) that is significantly further than the public school served by busses.  I call it Al Gore syndrome.....do as I say, not as I do!

Long flights are brutal, well maybe not as much if you are in one of those lie down cubbies seats with 5star service.....I wouldn't know.   There are a lot of places in the world that I would like to see but I don't know if I could survive the flights.....or get back on one to go home if I did.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 14, 2024, 12:25:58 PM

If we could “find the time “ repositioning cruises seem like a wonderful way to cross oceans. Maybe someday we’ll find the time to try it. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 14, 2024, 12:42:03 PM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on February 14, 2024, 12:25:58 PM

If we could “find the time “ repositioning cruises seem like a wonderful way to cross oceans. Maybe someday we’ll find the time to try it.

I saw one of those a couple of weeks ago and thought the same thing.   Use that to leisurely get to the other side, travel around a while and then come home.

But....time...a lot of time.   When kids are out in a few years I think I would like to try that.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on February 14, 2024, 03:33:43 PM

yeah, except for those 30 somethings that were much quicker to FI than me, it is a tight window between being able to easily afford the big trips and when the kids are moved on/not available due to jobs and their own lives etc.....  We've had a couple huge European ones the last 2 summers but this summer already it was too hard to schedule around their schedules....though wife and I just did a 3 day weekend in the Carribean by ourselves and maybe we could get used to that...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 14, 2024, 08:52:08 PM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on February 14, 2024, 12:25:58 PM

If we could “find the time “ repositioning cruises seem like a wonderful way to cross oceans. Maybe someday we’ll find the time to try it.

We have some friends that have done a ton of those, and along with other cruises, they’ve basically sailed around the world.  Their work allows them to work remotely, so as long as their cruise ship have internet access, they can work half days during their trips!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: thefisherwoman on February 15, 2024, 06:17:26 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 14, 2024, 08:52:08 PM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on February 14, 2024, 12:25:58 PM

If we could “find the time “ repositioning cruises seem like a wonderful way to cross oceans. Maybe someday we’ll find the time to try it.

We have some friends that have done a ton of those, and along with other cruises, they’ve basically sailed around the world.  Their work allows them to work remotely, so as long as their cruise ship have internet access, they can work half days during their trips!

I don't qualify for the thread's title, but I've never heard of repositioning cruises before and wanted to ask more about this! How would I go about finding repositioning cruises?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 15, 2024, 06:20:06 AM

Quote from: thefisherwoman on February 15, 2024, 06:17:26 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 14, 2024, 08:52:08 PM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on February 14, 2024, 12:25:58 PM

If we could “find the time “ repositioning cruises seem like a wonderful way to cross oceans. Maybe someday we’ll find the time to try it.

We have some friends that have done a ton of those, and along with other cruises, they’ve basically sailed around the world.  Their work allows them to work remotely, so as long as their cruise ship have internet access, they can work half days during their trips!

I don't qualify for the thread's title, but I've never heard of repositioning cruises before and wanted to ask more about this! How would I go about finding repositioning cruises?

Your question got me curious!   It looks like it's as easy as googling "repositioning cruises 2024"

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on February 15, 2024, 07:34:39 AM

Quote from: thefisherwoman on February 15, 2024, 06:17:26 AM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on February 14, 2024, 08:52:08 PM

Quote from: Dancin'Dog on February 14, 2024, 12:25:58 PM

If we could “find the time “ repositioning cruises seem like a wonderful way to cross oceans. Maybe someday we’ll find the time to try it.

We have some friends that have done a ton of those, and along with other cruises, they’ve basically sailed around the world.  Their work allows them to work remotely, so as long as their cruise ship have internet access, they can work half days during their trips!

I don't qualify for the thread's title, but I've never heard of repositioning cruises before and wanted to ask more about this! How would I go about finding repositioning cruises?
[/quote


Vacationstogo.com is a travel site that I have used to get lists of repositioning cruises.  Just use “repositioning “ for the area filter in the search bar. I set the dates for a 12 month span to get an idea of what is for all 4 seasons.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on February 15, 2024, 08:42:20 AM

Anybody wanting to plan a trip to China might want to wait another year or so -- flights are still ridiculously expensive because they haven't restored enough of the routes that got cut during Covid, and demand is still high because so many people weren't able to get back to see their families for 2-3 years.

In other news, anybody else dirty market timing today?  I'm on the verge of signing my contract with the builder for my renovations, so decided to cash in some of my LTCGs and pad the cash coffers a bit. Hoping the market will swing up enough again to be at least close to the high I missed on Friday.

Send good vibes for my lot of FZROX please!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on February 15, 2024, 08:46:51 AM

Quote from: lhamo on February 15, 2024, 08:42:20 AM

Anybody wanting to plan a trip to China might want to wait another year or so -- flights are still ridiculously expensive because they haven't restored enough of the routes that got cut during Covid, and demand is still high because so many people weren't able to get back to see their families for 2-3 years.

In other news, anybody else dirty market timing today?  I'm on the verge of signing my contract with the builder for my renovations, so decided to cash in some of my LTCGs and pad the cash coffers a bit. Hoping the market will swing up enough again to be at least close to the high I missed on Friday.

Send good vibes for my lot of FZROX please!

RSUs vest soon, which is also our snapshot trigger. Fingers crossed we at least hang on through then.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: catccc on February 16, 2024, 12:38:06 AM

Nobody:
Me:  well, our liquid NW is nearing 2.5M (2.7M with real estate) and I just told P2 today that the more work goes well for me, the less I want to leave.
My ESI millionaire interview is set to run later this month.  Pretty sure in the interview, which was completed last August, when liquid NW was 2.0M, I said we’d walk away from our jobs at 2.5M, but now in my mind I’m already aiming for 3.0M.  You know, just in case and also because you gotta strike while it’s hot and I feel like I’m killing it at work lately and because the 12 and 15 year olds are getting really close to driving and college and what will that cost?  In November I made a 24 month countdown chain, and today I realized that there’s no way I’m quitting at the end of the year because I want my bonus that gets paid in March.  I have to leave after I get paid my bonus, of course.
What does it mean if every time I’m on vacation I don’t want to go back to work, but when I’m working, I think “hey, this is cool!”?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 16, 2024, 05:13:50 AM

Quote from: catccc on February 16, 2024, 12:38:06 AM

Nobody:
Me:  well, our liquid NW is nearing 2.5M (2.7M with real estate) and I just told P2 today that the more work goes well for me, the less I want to leave.
My ESI millionaire interview is set to run later this month.  Pretty sure in the interview, which was completed last August, when liquid NW was 2.0M, I said we’d walk away from our jobs at 2.5M, but now in my mind I’m already aiming for 3.0M.  You know, just in case and also because you gotta strike while it’s hot and I feel like I’m killing it at work lately and because the 12 and 15 year olds are getting really close to driving and college and what will that cost?  In November I made a 24 month countdown chain, and today I realized that there’s no way I’m quitting at the end of the year because I want my bonus that gets paid in March.  I have to leave after I get paid my bonus, of course.
What does it mean if every time I’m on vacation I don’t want to go back to work, but when I’m working, I think “hey, this is cool!”?

Are you still having fun at work?   Do you get excited to go to work most day and do what you do?

If yes, keep doing it.

If no, find something else to do with your time.   Could be for money, could be for something else.


As for college costs for the kids, set a budget and that's how much they get.  They want to spend more than that, it's on their shoulders.   Easy-peasy!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 16, 2024, 06:51:33 AM

Quote from: lhamo on February 15, 2024, 08:42:20 AM

...
Send good vibes for my lot of FZROX please!

If you sold at market close yesterday you probably did well, looks like the market is opening down today.  No market timing for me anymore, all DCA.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on February 16, 2024, 07:53:03 AM

Quote from: catccc on February 16, 2024, 12:38:06 AM

Nobody:
Me:  well, our liquid NW is nearing 2.5M (2.7M with real estate) and I just told P2 today that the more work goes well for me, the less I want to leave.
My ESI millionaire interview is set to run later this month.  Pretty sure in the interview, which was completed last August, when liquid NW was 2.0M, I said we’d walk away from our jobs at 2.5M, but now in my mind I’m already aiming for 3.0M.  You know, just in case and also because you gotta strike while it’s hot and I feel like I’m killing it at work lately and because the 12 and 15 year olds are getting really close to driving and college and what will that cost?  In November I made a 24 month countdown chain, and today I realized that there’s no way I’m quitting at the end of the year because I want my bonus that gets paid in March.  I have to leave after I get paid my bonus, of course.
What does it mean if every time I’m on vacation I don’t want to go back to work, but when I’m working, I think “hey, this is cool!”?

Double check your HR small fine print for timing.  At my company, if you are employed on Dec 31st, you rate a March bonus even if you leave in Jan or Feb.  However, company 401k match on that bonus is only paid if you are still employed in March when bonuses are paid.

So I'm setting my leave date for the beginning of April, most likely.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on February 16, 2024, 08:46:41 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 16, 2024, 06:51:33 AM

Quote from: lhamo on February 15, 2024, 08:42:20 AM

...
Send good vibes for my lot of FZROX please!

If you sold at market close yesterday you probably did well, looks like the market is opening down today.  No market timing for me anymore, all DCA.

I got the new 12 month high!  17.50, which for me works out to $6.25 in LTCG per share. 

So today I feel good about being a dirty market timer.  Now should have enough in liquid cash or equivalents to fund this year's planned house renovations and living expenses for 12-24 months (depends on how hard core frugal I want/need to be).  IBL is calm for the moment and will continue to be happy if the market drops again.  But she'll probably whine a bit if the market continues to go up....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 16, 2024, 11:44:02 AM

Quote from: lhamo on February 16, 2024, 08:46:41 AM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 16, 2024, 06:51:33 AM

Quote from: lhamo on February 15, 2024, 08:42:20 AM

...
Send good vibes for my lot of FZROX please!

If you sold at market close yesterday you probably did well, looks like the market is opening down today.  No market timing for me anymore, all DCA.

I got the new 12 month high!  17.50, which for me works out to $6.25 in LTCG per share. 

So today I feel good about being a dirty market timer.  Now should have enough in liquid cash or equivalents to fund this year's planned house renovations and living expenses for 12-24 months (depends on how hard core frugal I want/need to be).  IBL is calm for the moment and will continue to be happy if the market drops again.  But she'll probably whine a bit if the market continues to go up....

I'm still waiting for a couple of old 401k rollover checks to show up.. Surprised the S&P 500 hasn't doubled in the meantime!..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: catccc on February 16, 2024, 04:18:08 PM

Quote from: Turtle on February 16, 2024, 07:53:03 AM

Double check your HR small fine print for timing.  At my company, if you are employed on Dec 31st, you rate a March bonus even if you leave in Jan or Feb.  However, company 401k match on that bonus is only paid if you are still employed in March when bonuses are paid.

So I'm setting my leave date for the beginning of April, most likely.

Yes, good point, I'll check it out!

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 16, 2024, 05:13:50 AM

Are you still having fun at work?   Do you get excited to go to work most day and do what you do?

If yes, keep doing it.

If no, find something else to do with your time.   Could be for money, could be for something else.


As for college costs for the kids, set a budget and that's how much they get.  They want to spend more than that, it's on their shoulders.   Easy-peasy!

I don't really get excited to work most days, but when I'm doing it I usually enjoy myself.  A lot of this may be due to positive thinking trickery.  Like, a responsibility will land on me, and my initial reaction is "wah, I don't wanna!"  But I reframe and tell myself it will be fun, and it is a little.  So essentially, mixed feelings either way on working.  How can I complain that I like what I do and it pays relatively well?  So I'll take it while this feeling lasts, I guess.  Also, I need to tell myself there's no need to figure it out now, there are plenty of rings on the countdown chain and some ways to go to get to $3M.

DD1 is eyeing private liberal arts schools, so this approach seems like a good way to handle that, but at the same time, I feel an obligation to spend more if it is within our means...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: flyingaway on February 16, 2024, 06:56:48 PM

Quote from: lhamo on February 15, 2024, 08:42:20 AM

Anybody wanting to plan a trip to China might want to wait another year or so -- flights are still ridiculously expensive because they haven't restored enough of the routes that got cut during Covid, and demand is still high because so many people weren't able to get back to see their families for 2-3 years.

In other news, anybody else dirty market timing today?  I'm on the verge of signing my contract with the builder for my renovations, so decided to cash in some of my LTCGs and pad the cash coffers a bit. Hoping the market will swing up enough again to be at least close to the high I missed on Friday.

Send good vibes for my lot of FZROX please!

In a week, I will fly to Tokyo, then to Taiwan, then to China, for a month long trip. If you have time, you can always travel for fun, find a cheap route to go.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on February 17, 2024, 08:48:45 AM

Thanks everyone for the encouragement to book our trip. I appreciate the perspectives of those a little further ahead on the road!
We are waiting for the kids passports to get here before we book everything. Hopefully it will all work out. The plan is to fly to Mexico for a week at the same all inclusive resort we spent our honeymoon at 20 years ago. The kids are excited to go snorkeling, see Mayan ruins and of course being 11 and 15 year old boys they want the all you can eat 24/7 food.
It drives me crazy that the plane tickets are so ridiculously priced but it is what it is. The resort isn’t that much more than what we pay to rent the beach condo we like to drive to in the summer. When you’re tied to the school schedule you have to pay the premium. Someday when they are grown, DH and I can do the budget travel thing. Until then we will make memories with the kids with the time we have. Even if they are over priced.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on February 17, 2024, 09:14:39 PM

Quote from: BeanCounter on February 17, 2024, 08:48:45 AM

Thanks everyone for the encouragement to book our trip. I appreciate the perspectives of those a little further ahead on the road!
We are waiting for the kids passports to get here before we book everything. Hopefully it will all work out. The plan is to fly to Mexico for a week at the same all inclusive resort we spent our honeymoon at 20 years ago. The kids are excited to go snorkeling, see Mayan ruins and of course being 11 and 15 year old boys they want the all you can eat 24/7 food.
It drives me crazy that the plane tickets are so ridiculously priced but it is what it is. The resort isn’t that much more than what we pay to rent the beach condo we like to drive to in the summer. When you’re tied to the school schedule you have to pay the premium. Someday when they are grown, DH and I can do the budget travel thing. Until then we will make memories with the kids with the time we have. Even if they are over priced.

Enjoy it BC.
Make those lasting memories and don't worry about the budget. You've already done the hard work. Have fun.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Zoot on February 17, 2024, 09:14:47 PM

Quote from: Zoot on April 01, 2022, 09:14:19 AM

Well, everybody, I've finally decided to declare my presence in this thread.

As of month-end for March, we're at $2.04MM net worth, $1.62MM when removing home equity.

I feel kind of smarmy for declaring $2MM, because of the home equity piece--both because it plumps up the total figure and because I recently increased the value of our home in our household balance sheet based on comps in our neighborhood, thereby giving a bump to the equity number--but there it is.  I think I won't feel like a "real" multi-millionaire until our non-home assets are over $2MM.  ;-)

Hi, everybody--necro-ing my own post from April 2022 in order to note that our non-home assets well and truly passed the $2M mark in January 2024, and that I now have my for-realsies full membership card to this thread.  Total NW is now $2.5M.

Carry on.  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 17, 2024, 09:20:21 PM

Quote from: Zoot on February 17, 2024, 09:14:47 PM

Quote from: Zoot on April 01, 2022, 09:14:19 AM

Well, everybody, I've finally decided to declare my presence in this thread.

As of month-end for March, we're at $2.04MM net worth, $1.62MM when removing home equity.

I feel kind of smarmy for declaring $2MM, because of the home equity piece--both because it plumps up the total figure and because I recently increased the value of our home in our household balance sheet based on comps in our neighborhood, thereby giving a bump to the equity number--but there it is.  I think I won't feel like a "real" multi-millionaire until our non-home assets are over $2MM.  ;-)

Hi, everybody--necro-ing my own post from April 2022 in order to note that our non-home assets well and truly passed the $2M mark in January 2024, and that I now have my for-realsies full membership card to this thread.  Total NW is now $2.5M.

Carry on.  :)

Wicked, bad, naughty, evil Zoot!... How dare you pre-empt your thread membership! But we're glad you're really here now..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on February 22, 2024, 03:23:36 PM

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20240221-workers-shake-off-golden-handcuffs (https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20240221-workers-shake-off-golden-handcuffs)

Not sure if this deserves its own thread or if this a place to discuss it. I didn’t spend my career in the financial sector, but I definitely felt the golden handcuffs tightening. It’s thanks to this forum and this thread that I finally loosened them. Still working on shedding them completely. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on February 22, 2024, 06:26:24 PM

WTF happened with the market today?  Of course the dirty market timer in me that was so happy at hitting the market high last week is now wondering if I should cash out a bit more on this new high....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on February 22, 2024, 07:28:08 PM

Quote from: lhamo on February 22, 2024, 06:26:24 PM

WTF happened with the market today?  Of course the dirty market timer in me that was so happy at hitting the market high last week is now wondering if I should cash out a bit more on this new high....

I know I should be relishing in markets going like this but I hate it bc it makes me just focus on the eventuality of the floor dropping out from under me.  I much prefer a slow grind.

Doesn't matter, a 10% drop is due and woul be so three months ago when all was fine.  Also helps that one of my psychological metrics is where am I at if my portfolio goes down 25% how would I feel. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on February 22, 2024, 08:32:28 PM

Quote from: lhamo on February 22, 2024, 06:26:24 PM

WTF happened with the market today?  Of course the dirty market timer in me that was so happy at hitting the market high last week is now wondering if I should cash out a bit more on this new high....

I might be becoming a dirty market timer: I was planning to wait until a recent sale settled and the funds were redistributed to run the numbers and rebalance, but I did it tonight. Of course, when markets only moved a fraction of a percent a day, I didn't worry about the fact that the actual rebalancing happens at the next close...

We like the new total, though :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 22, 2024, 08:44:08 PM

We have 4 different sources of income:

social security (yeah, we're old)
rental house income
farm sharecropping income (basically variable rental farmland income)
stock & bond portfolio

Any one of them crashes for a few years and we just lose out on bonus fun money.
Any two of them crash and we tighten our belts.

I don't sweat market results.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on February 22, 2024, 09:05:50 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 22, 2024, 08:44:08 PM

We have 4 different sources of income:

social security (yeah, we're old)
rental house income
farm sharecropping income (basically variable rental farmland income)
stock & bond portfolio

Any one of them crashes for a few years and we just lose out on bonus fun money.
Any two of them crash and we tighten our belts.

I don't sweat market results.

DH still earns enough that our savings rate is respectable outside of FIRE circles. But I like to see the numbers at market highs so that he remembers he is work optional.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 23, 2024, 03:27:28 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on February 22, 2024, 07:28:08 PM

Quote from: lhamo on February 22, 2024, 06:26:24 PM

WTF happened with the market today?  Of course the dirty market timer in me that was so happy at hitting the market high last week is now wondering if I should cash out a bit more on this new high....

I know I should be relishing in markets going like this but I hate it bc it makes me just focus on the eventuality of the floor dropping out from under me.  I much prefer a slow grind.

Doesn't matter, a 10% drop is due and woul be so three months ago when all was fine.  Also helps that one of my psychological metrics is where am I at if my portfolio goes down 25% how would I feel.

It's entirely due to Nvidia, the Cisco equivalenct of the 2020s. Thirty years ago when the Internet was beginning to take off, Cisco was pretty much the only company making money off the Internet so its stock was shooting up like crazy. Analogously, Nvidia is still the only company really making money from AI.

My personal view on AI (since I worked in the field for many years): There are a lot of great demos being created now but its going to be a lot harder to actually make money from any of this. Eventually people will figure out ways to make these new models do useful things but a lot of money will be set on fire  in the meanwhile.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on February 23, 2024, 05:33:25 AM

Quote from: ixtap on February 22, 2024, 08:32:28 PM

Quote from: lhamo on February 22, 2024, 06:26:24 PM

WTF happened with the market today?  Of course the dirty market timer in me that was so happy at hitting the market high last week is now wondering if I should cash out a bit more on this new high....

I might be becoming a dirty market timer: I was planning to wait until a recent sale settled and the funds were redistributed to run the numbers and rebalance, but I did it tonight. Of course, when markets only moved a fraction of a percent a day, I didn't worry about the fact that the actual rebalancing happens at the next close...

We like the new total, though :)

Yeah, I have doing a lot of calculations and was expecting to make another rebalance (working on a slow glide path from around 85% equities to 65% in the couple years) from Total Stock to Total Bond within a couple weeks. Decided that since our equities were going to end up a couple percent, might as well make the exchange in my IRA. Order placed before close and executed.

Between a few exchanges and all new 401k going to bonds, the needle is inching in the correct direction. I assume the market will drop routinely as we go and have also put a loose target on a desired dollar value in bonds as we go along. Sort of helps attenuate the noise for me. Simultaneously, we are building up a string of CDs in taxable as part of the plan.

@2sk22 , good analogy to Cisco. Definitely will see only a few of the early dollars make it through to the other side (whatever that might look like.)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on February 23, 2024, 08:39:51 AM

I have a good Cisco story.  I thought it was a food company (Sysco) in 1995 when DH talked about buying it with his rollover IRA from a government job. I think he invested $500 on it at the time, and it's grown to $7,500. Good thing he bought the tech version versus the food version.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 23, 2024, 08:48:14 AM

My philosophy on market highs.  The higher the market goes, the more room I have in a downfall to not worry.

On golden handcuffs.  I have them in the form of my pension (17 months). But this community has shown me the concept of enough and I am not looking to stay on, or for a retirement job when I become early retirement eligible.  I will be the 1% who will retire before age 50.  Without understanding enough, I’d likely have made financial decisions that would have convinced me that I needed to keep working in order to afford X,Y and Z that wouldn’t have only provided very marginal gains if any on the life satisfaction scale.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 23, 2024, 12:05:41 PM

Quote from: couponvan on February 23, 2024, 08:39:51 AM

I have a good Cisco story.  I thought it was a food company (Sysco) in 1995 when DH talked about buying it with his rollover IRA from a government job. I think he invested $500 on it at the time, and it's grown to $7,500. Good thing he bought the tech version versus the food version.

Haha, back in the days when I used to trade individual stocks I did a similar thing and bought Tata motors in India.... I also made money on that mistaken trade.

I have since leaned that individual stock trading was far too stressful  and dumped everything into ETF's before and during the 2008 meltdown.. I'm much happier now..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 23, 2024, 12:23:56 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on February 23, 2024, 12:05:41 PM

Quote from: couponvan on February 23, 2024, 08:39:51 AM

I have a good Cisco story.  I thought it was a food company (Sysco) in 1995 when DH talked about buying it with his rollover IRA from a government job. I think he invested $500 on it at the time, and it's grown to $7,500. Good thing he bought the tech version versus the food version.

Haha, back in the days when I used to trade individual stocks I did a similar thing and bought Tata motors in India.... I also made money on that mistaken trade.

I have since leaned that individual stock trading was far too stressful  and dumped everything into ETF's before and during the 2008 meltdown.. I'm much happier now..:)

Same here - the last time I bought individual stocks was in the late 1990s at the height of the Dotcom bubble. The riskiest investment currently in my portfolio is an ETF that tracks the DOW30 (but even that is only a relatively small fraction of the total)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on February 23, 2024, 03:17:31 PM

Quote from: couponvan on February 23, 2024, 08:39:51 AM

Good thing he bought the tech version versus the food version.

I quick look at Yahoo Finance seems to suggest that $500 of Sysco stock at the beginning of 1995 would be worth around $6000 today, so looks like either way it would be doing alright.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 23, 2024, 04:38:28 PM

I’ve recently begun individual stocks again.  The last time I owned any was having a real estate company in 2008.  I throw $25 a week in my sandbox account.  I see it more of a way not to mess with my primary accounts vs. actually investing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 23, 2024, 05:33:21 PM

I almost considered throwing $1000 into Bitcoin when I first heard about it. It sounded like an interesting technology at the very least and, heck, why not? Would not have been surprised (or hurt) if I lost it all.

I sue wish I had...:).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on February 24, 2024, 04:51:40 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on February 23, 2024, 04:38:28 PM

I’ve recently begun individual stocks again.  The last time I owned any was having a real estate company in 2008.  I throw $25 a week in my sandbox account.  I see it more of a way not to mess with my primary accounts vs. actually investing.

There used to be a company called Sharebuilder that I used until it shut down in in 2017. They offered a nice feature I haven't seen anywhere else - you could specify a fixed dollar amount of any share to be purchased every month. In other words, you could do fractional purchase of any share. I mainly used it to buy the Dow ETF but as a fun exercise, I allowed each of my daughters to pick one company to buy regularly: one picked Disney and the other picked Valero (since there is a Valero gas station we used to pass every day on the way to school). I used to buy $5 of each of these shares ever week on Tuesday and it has built up to a decent amount now twenty years later

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Lake on February 24, 2024, 01:33:58 PM

My worst investment mistake I ever made was with Nvidia. You’d think it would be my investment in MCI worlcom that went bankrupt but nope. I bought NVDA in 2013 when I started thinking about FIRE. I invested $3000.00 and several years later when I had made about $50,000 on it I thought it’s better to get out too early than too late. I just envisioned making that much on a stock and having it crater and losing it all. The other day I did a little back of the envelope math and that original investment looked like it would have been over $300,000. I can’t remember exactly how many splits there have been as I don’t really want to do the actual math to see what those shares would be worth today. I just remember there was like a gold rush for their chips from crypto miners that seemed like a short term bump. The only lesson I learned is that it’s impossible to time when to sell an individual stock and I’m much better suited to total market funds. I’m also no longer envious of anyone hitting a stock that goes through the moon because I know I would have taken too much off the table to ever let it get that high.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Louise on February 24, 2024, 02:17:53 PM

Quote from: Lake on February 24, 2024, 01:33:58 PM

My worst investment mistake I ever made was with Nvidia. You’d think it would be my investment in MCI worlcom that went bankrupt but nope. I bought NVDA in 2013 when I started thinking about FIRE. I invested $3000.00 and several years later when I had made about $50,000 on it I thought it’s better to get out too early than too late. I just envisioned making that much on a stock and having it crater and losing it all. The other day I did a little back of the envelope math and that original investment looked like it would have been over $300,000. I can’t remember exactly how many splits there have been as I don’t really want to do the actual math to see what those shares would be worth today. I just remember there was like a gold rush for their chips from crypto miners that seemed like a short term bump. The only lesson I learned is that it’s impossible to time when to sell an individual stock and I’m much better suited to total market funds. I’m also no longer envious of anyone hitting a stock that goes through the moon because I know I would have taken too much off the table to ever let it get that high.

I bought Google when it first became public. I sold it too. Much sooner than I should have, but I'm just not built to hold individual stocks. I feel OK knowing I own a little bit of everything in index funds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on February 24, 2024, 05:23:28 PM

Quote from: Lake on February 24, 2024, 01:33:58 PM

My worst investment mistake I ever made was with Nvidia. You’d think it would be my investment in MCI worlcom that went bankrupt but nope. I bought NVDA in 2013 when I started thinking about FIRE. I invested $3000.00 and several years later when I had made about $50,000 on it I thought it’s better to get out too early than too late. I just envisioned making that much on a stock and having it crater and losing it all. The other day I did a little back of the envelope math and that original investment looked like it would have been over $300,000. I can’t remember exactly how many splits there have been as I don’t really want to do the actual math to see what those shares would be worth today. I just remember there was like a gold rush for their chips from crypto miners that seemed like a short term bump. The only lesson I learned is that it’s impossible to time when to sell an individual stock and I’m much better suited to total market funds. I’m also no longer envious of anyone hitting a stock that goes through the moon because I know I would have taken too much off the table to ever let it get that high.

Sounds like a great win, not a mistake. You made some good money and learned to be an indexer.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on February 24, 2024, 06:31:19 PM

I didn't sell TSLA when it was sky high, if that makes anyone feel better... My gains are an enormous %, but I didn't have that much invested as it was part of a basket. I sold all of the solar companies in that basket at a loss when overall markets were at highs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on February 24, 2024, 08:10:37 PM

Quote from: ixtap on February 24, 2024, 06:31:19 PM

I didn't sell TSLA when it was sky high, if that makes anyone feel better... My gains are an enormous %, but I didn't have that much invested as it was part of a basket. I sold all of the solar companies in that basket at a loss when overall markets were at highs.

That’s another one of our $5K winners

I swear my kids are the best market
Barometers. Hear about it in a game chat-tell mom and dad.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on February 24, 2024, 10:26:34 PM

Quote from: Lake on February 24, 2024, 01:33:58 PM

My worst investment mistake I ever made was with Nvidia. You’d think it would be my investment in MCI worlcom that went bankrupt but nope. I bought NVDA in 2013 when I started thinking about FIRE. I invested $3000.00 and several years later when I had made about $50,000 on it I thought it’s better to get out too early than too late. I just envisioned making that much on a stock and having it crater and losing it all. The other day I did a little back of the envelope math and that original investment looked like it would have been over $300,000. I can’t remember exactly how many splits there have been as I don’t really want to do the actual math to see what those shares would be worth today. I just remember there was like a gold rush for their chips from crypto miners that seemed like a short term bump. The only lesson I learned is that it’s impossible to time when to sell an individual stock and I’m much better suited to total market funds. I’m also no longer envious of anyone hitting a stock that goes through the moon because I know I would have taken too much off the table to ever let it get that high.

What did you do with the $50k? You really could run those numbers to have a little mercy on yourself. Unless you blew it on something shiny that depreciates, you've probably done better than you think.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: BeanCounter on February 25, 2024, 03:59:51 AM

My worst investment mistake was not holding onto stock purchased through an employee stock purchase plan. We were able to buy at a 15% discount on the lowest price of the quarter. I didn’t buy a lot. I should have bought a lot more. When I left the company in 2015 I thought I was so smart and knew stuff. I thought that the ACA would impact their performance so I sold my $13k of shares. I just looked it up. Those shares would be worth $118k now.
That’s pretty painful.

@couponvan i know what you mean! My kid was talking to me about Nvidia in the summer of 2021!!!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Lake on February 25, 2024, 09:43:05 AM

Quote from: Dicey on February 24, 2024, 10:26:34 PM

Quote from: Lake on February 24, 2024, 01:33:58 PM

My worst investment mistake I ever made was with Nvidia. You’d think it would be my investment in MCI worlcom that went bankrupt but nope. I bought NVDA in 2013 when I started thinking about FIRE. I invested $3000.00 and several years later when I had made about $50,000 on it I thought it’s better to get out too early than too late. I just envisioned making that much on a stock and having it crater and losing it all. The other day I did a little back of the envelope math and that original investment looked like it would have been over $300,000. I can’t remember exactly how many splits there have been as I don’t really want to do the actual math to see what those shares would be worth today. I just remember there was like a gold rush for their chips from crypto miners that seemed like a short term bump. The only lesson I learned is that it’s impossible to time when to sell an individual stock and I’m much better suited to total market funds. I’m also no longer envious of anyone hitting a stock that goes through the moon because I know I would have taken too much off the table to ever let it get that high.

What did you do with the $50k? You really could run those numbers to have a little mercy on yourself. Unless you blew it on something shiny that depreciates, you've probably done better than you think.

@Dicey thanks for the perspective. I ended up just converting it to VTI so it could have been worse:) I won’t mention all the other exceptionally dumb things I’ve done in my life and yet somehow still made it into this club.

@BeanCounter don’t beat yourself up too much. After Enron the right call is usually diversifying out of the company you work for but it still hurts to add up what could have been:)

@ATtiny85 thanks yes it was good lesson on finding a comfort zone.

@Louise I totally agree.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 25, 2024, 12:22:44 PM

I worked for a hi tech fortune 500 company for 27 years.. Had all kinds of stock options.. Which expired worthless because the company cratered. They were worth over $100k at one point.

I used to roll my 401k into and out of company stock and made 36% one year.. I was so glad I realised how risky that was. I lots the stock options but at least I didn't lose my shirt!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on February 25, 2024, 06:05:35 PM

@Exflyboy - we've had varying stock experiences. Really wish I'd kept my MSFT options ;-) Also, if you don't mind me asking, how do you like Corvallis? I grew up in SW Washington, but haven't spend any time there, and DS18 is considering OSU for college in the fall. I've heard it's a great college town.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on February 25, 2024, 06:33:33 PM

@MaybeBabyMustache Corvallis is just lovely. hundreds of forest hiking/biking trails on our doorstep. Small town feel downtown, lots of quaint shops, bars etc.

I really love the place. I think its the most educated city in the USA, liberal leaning. Crime rates are very low. The college is highly regarded for its engineering/CS programs. A buddy of mine is an early retired professor. He set up the e-campus before he retired.

The only thing that sucks is the State income tax!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on February 25, 2024, 06:59:24 PM

@Exflyboy - thank you! I think it would be a great fit for our son. Coming down for an admitted student day in April, so hoping to get a better sense for the town.

We're in California, so I feel you on the income tax. :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on February 29, 2024, 09:46:04 PM

Did my (mostly) monthly net worth calculation.   I'm $2,078 shy of "& Beyond" territory.

If I hadn't bought and paid for all those bookbinding tools and classes earlier in this year...

Then again, it's worth it.  My book will be the most gloriously lovely doorstop in the history of modern book publishing! 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 01, 2024, 03:35:00 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 29, 2024, 09:46:04 PM

Did my (mostly) monthly net worth calculation.   I'm $2,078 shy of "& Beyond" territory.

If I hadn't bought and paid for all those bookbinding tools and classes earlier in this year...

Then again, it's worth it.  My book will be the most gloriously lovely doorstop in the history of modern book publishing!

Our accounts swing 10s of thousands of dollars on any given day. I'm thinking you're beyond worrying about a few thousands  of dollars in a purchase. Our weekly swings can buy a premium car.
I know we're not really rich like hundreds of millions rich. But, were rich enough to see money completely different than most everyone else.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 01, 2024, 05:05:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 01, 2024, 03:35:00 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 29, 2024, 09:46:04 PM

Did my (mostly) monthly net worth calculation.   I'm $2,078 shy of "& Beyond" territory.

If I hadn't bought and paid for all those bookbinding tools and classes earlier in this year...

Then again, it's worth it.  My book will be the most gloriously lovely doorstop in the history of modern book publishing!

Our accounts swing 10s of thousands of dollars on any given day. I'm thinking you're beyond worrying about a few thousands  of dollars in a purchase. Our weekly swings can buy a premium car.
I know we're not really rich like hundreds of millions rich. But, were rich enough to see money completely different than most everyone else.

Absolutely!!!   (I was just being funny.   Or trying...)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 01, 2024, 05:33:46 AM

I didn’t do one this month because we are traveling-next month has DH’s annual bonus so we will get a bump unless the market swings wipe it out. The idea that we can cash flow $125K of tuition costs in a year without taking out student loans puts us in the race at the middle and treading water for the most part. We have another year of this before we can go down to just one tuition cost and then freedom….

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 01, 2024, 06:40:53 AM

To be fair, 'and beyond' should 'cost' $5M according to this calculator - https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ 

Basically, we've had 25% inflation since 2017.  Someday people will look at our 'at beyond' and be like, you can't even buy a coffee with that LOL

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on March 01, 2024, 07:08:29 AM

I decided to sell a few more shares a couple of days ago as their value was already higher than what I had sold for a couple of weeks prior.  Of course yesterday they hit yet ANOTHER all time high.  "Lost" $120 by selling two days early.  Whomp whomp. 

It's fine.  I don't need to hit the market high with every adjustment.  But it sure feels nice when I do!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on March 01, 2024, 11:50:33 AM

Quote from: lhamo on March 01, 2024, 07:08:29 AM

But it sure feels nice when I do!

The stars aligned today…end of the month, looks to close at a peak, and felt I needed more cash on hand to cash flow some memory equity for my family!

Life is good.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 01, 2024, 12:15:23 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 01, 2024, 05:05:58 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 01, 2024, 03:35:00 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on February 29, 2024, 09:46:04 PM

Did my (mostly) monthly net worth calculation.   I'm $2,078 shy of "& Beyond" territory.

If I hadn't bought and paid for all those bookbinding tools and classes earlier in this year...

Then again, it's worth it.  My book will be the most gloriously lovely doorstop in the history of modern book publishing!

Our accounts swing 10s of thousands of dollars on any given day. I'm thinking you're beyond worrying about a few thousands  of dollars in a purchase. Our weekly swings can buy a premium car.
I know we're not really rich like hundreds of millions rich. But, were rich enough to see money completely different than most everyone else.

Absolutely!!!   (I was just being funny.   Or trying...)

I found it funny and have the same thoughts during a milestone moment.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 01, 2024, 12:19:52 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 01, 2024, 06:40:53 AM

To be fair, 'and beyond' should 'cost' $5M according to this calculator - https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ 

Basically, we've had 25% inflation since 2017.  Someday people will look at our 'at beyond' and be like, you can't even buy a coffee with that LOL

5M in my mind is kind of where rich mindset starts, if not 10M
I'm still not going to run out on a whim and buy a beach house at our TNW. Even though it's now beyond.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 01, 2024, 12:36:20 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 01, 2024, 12:19:52 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 01, 2024, 06:40:53 AM

To be fair, 'and beyond' should 'cost' $5M according to this calculator - https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ 

Basically, we've had 25% inflation since 2017.  Someday people will look at our 'at beyond' and be like, you can't even buy a coffee with that LOL

5M in my mind is kind of where rich mindset starts, if not 10M
I'm still not going to run out on a whim and buy a beach house at our TNW. Even though it's now beyond.

Oh, so you have to have $5M now to feel rich?.. That clearly explains why at $3.9M I still look at menu prices!...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on March 01, 2024, 01:01:37 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 01, 2024, 12:36:20 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 01, 2024, 12:19:52 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 01, 2024, 06:40:53 AM

To be fair, 'and beyond' should 'cost' $5M according to this calculator - https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ 

Basically, we've had 25% inflation since 2017.  Someday people will look at our 'at beyond' and be like, you can't even buy a coffee with that LOL

5M in my mind is kind of where rich mindset starts, if not 10M
I'm still not going to run out on a whim and buy a beach house at our TNW. Even though it's now beyond.

Oh, so you have to have $5M now to feel rich?.. That clearly explains why at $3.9M I still look at menu prices!...:)

You richies still eat out eh? Figures.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 01, 2024, 01:35:54 PM

Quote from: dividendman on March 01, 2024, 01:01:37 PM

You richies still eat out eh? Figures.

I was talking to friends recently - topic was about the cost of ordering on Doordash. I mentioned that I have never ordered on Doordash - there was stunned silence. I also mentioned that we eat out only a couple times a year other than when we are traveling. More silence :-)

Thanks to the recent upswing, our NW is up so much since November that I hesitate even to mention the amount...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 01, 2024, 02:41:01 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 01, 2024, 12:36:20 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 01, 2024, 12:19:52 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 01, 2024, 06:40:53 AM

To be fair, 'and beyond' should 'cost' $5M according to this calculator - https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ 

Basically, we've had 25% inflation since 2017.  Someday people will look at our 'at beyond' and be like, you can't even buy a coffee with that LOL

5M in my mind is kind of where rich mindset starts, if not 10M
I'm still not going to run out on a whim and buy a beach house at our TNW. Even though it's now beyond.

Oh, so you have to have $5M now to feel rich?.. That clearly explains why at $3.9M I still look at menu prices!...:)

For me its definitely $5M NW....only b/c I got to $4.85M in Nov 2021 and was assuming $5M in a month.....and am just now getting back up to $4.8M....of course, when your only concern is some number on a screen, or whether it has a 88% vs 93% chance of lasting 35 years without income, you realize you are being ridiculous about what rich is...though my wife still bugs me for throwing out an empty butter container so I'm pretty sure I'm not the one with the problem....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 01, 2024, 03:12:48 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 01, 2024, 02:41:01 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 01, 2024, 12:36:20 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 01, 2024, 12:19:52 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 01, 2024, 06:40:53 AM

To be fair, 'and beyond' should 'cost' $5M according to this calculator - https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ 

Basically, we've had 25% inflation since 2017.  Someday people will look at our 'at beyond' and be like, you can't even buy a coffee with that LOL

5M in my mind is kind of where rich mindset starts, if not 10M
I'm still not going to run out on a whim and buy a beach house at our TNW. Even though it's now beyond.

Oh, so you have to have $5M now to feel rich?.. That clearly explains why at $3.9M I still look at menu prices!...:)

For me its definitely $5M NW....only b/c I got to $4.85M in Nov 2021 and was assuming $5M in a month.....and am just now getting back up to $4.8M....of course, when your only concern is some number on a screen, or whether it has a 88% vs 93% chance of lasting 35 years without income, you realize you are being ridiculous about what rich is...though my wife still bugs me for throwing out an empty butter container so I'm pretty sure I'm not the one with the problem....

I dunno man, I think you're barely making it!..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 01, 2024, 03:14:15 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 01, 2024, 01:35:54 PM

Quote from: dividendman on March 01, 2024, 01:01:37 PM

You richies still eat out eh? Figures.

I was talking to friends recently - topic was about the cost of ordering on Doordash. I mentioned that I have never ordered on Doordash - there was stunned silence. I also mentioned that we eat out only a couple times a year other than when we are traveling. More silence :-)

Thanks to the recent upswing, our NW is up so much since November that I hesitate even to mention the amount...

Thankyou.. I mean you don't want to de-motivate us under achievers..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on March 01, 2024, 03:21:19 PM

Quote from: couponvan on March 01, 2024, 05:33:46 AM

I didn’t do one this month because we are traveling-next month has DH’s annual bonus so we will get a bump unless the market swings wipe it out. The idea that we can cash flow $125K of tuition costs in a year without taking out student loans puts us in the race at the middle and treading water for the most part. We have another year of this before we can go down to just one tuition cost and then freedom….

125K a year in tuition costs...ouch!  How long will that go on?

We are sooooo thankful that this is our last year of paying for college.  I think I mentioned this previously, but both kids graduate this spring!  One will be getting a masters degree from UNC chapel hill and wants to be a therapist, and one is graduating from the University on Minnesota with a physics/astrophysics double major.  We have 529's for them both...but it never seems to be enough.  We will be able to get them out of school without loans though, which was our goal from the start.

I think I also mentioned that the physics/astrophysics kid was looking for a fully paid grad school gig.  Well...he was accepted at Dartmouth and is waiting on the University of Michigan, Boston college, and a few others ( schools with good space physics PhD programs ).  The Dartmouth acceptance was the first one and was a huge load off for both him and us.  It is a fully paid PhD gig with full tuition, healthcare, and a 40K stipend.  Not too shabby!

Anyone have experience with the Dartmouth area ( New Hampshire / Vermont )?  Looks like a pretty cool location.   Boston is fairly close, as is Montreal.  As Minnesotans, we are not too familiar with the NE USA.   It has been fun visiting our daughter in Chapel Hill, NC....TONS of stuff to do within a few hour drive.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on March 01, 2024, 03:31:38 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 01, 2024, 03:14:15 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 01, 2024, 01:35:54 PM

Quote from: dividendman on March 01, 2024, 01:01:37 PM

You richies still eat out eh? Figures.

I was talking to friends recently - topic was about the cost of ordering on Doordash. I mentioned that I have never ordered on Doordash - there was stunned silence. I also mentioned that we eat out only a couple times a year other than when we are traveling. More silence :-)

Thanks to the recent upswing, our NW is up so much since November that I hesitate even to mention the amount...

Thankyou.. I mean you don't want to de-motivate us under achievers..:)

No kidding on Doordash...we tried ordering it one time and were appalled at how much it costs.  Frankly, we would much rather cook and eat in rather than order food or go out to eat.  We are cheap asses through and through...even though we are right at "and beyond" territory.  We just don't like feeling like we got ripped off, etc...

Hmm..maybe being "cheap asses" is how many of us got to where we are...eh?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Sanitary Stache on March 01, 2024, 05:11:53 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 01, 2024, 03:21:19 PM

Quote from: couponvan on March 01, 2024, 05:33:46 AM

I didn’t do one this month because we are traveling-next month has DH’s annual bonus so we will get a bump unless the market swings wipe it out. The idea that we can cash flow $125K of tuition costs in a year without taking out student loans puts us in the race at the middle and treading water for the most part. We have another year of this before we can go down to just one tuition cost and then freedom….

125K a year in tuition costs...ouch!  How long will that go on?

We are sooooo thankful that this is our last year of paying for college.  I think I mentioned this previously, but both kids graduate this spring!  One will be getting a masters degree from UNC chapel hill and wants to be a therapist, and one is graduating from the University on Minnesota with a physics/astrophysics double major.  We have 529's for them both...but it never seems to be enough.  We will be able to get them out of school without loans though, which was our goal from the start.

I think I also mentioned that the physics/astrophysics kid was looking for a fully paid grad school gig.  Well...he was accepted at Dartmouth and is waiting on the University of Michigan, Boston college, and a few others ( schools with good space physics PhD programs ).  The Dartmouth acceptance was the first one and was a huge load off for both him and us.  It is a fully paid PhD gig with full tuition, healthcare, and a 40K stipend.  Not too shabby!

Anyone have experience with the Dartmouth area ( New Hampshire / Vermont )?  Looks like a pretty cool location.   Boston is fairly close, as is Montreal.  As Minnesotans, we are not too familiar with the NE USA.   It has been fun visiting our daughter in Chapel Hill, NC....TONS of stuff to do within a few hour drive.

I have been lurking here. And now have something relevant to say, though I can’t imagine ever being in this category of wealth.

As far as Dartmouth goes, it’s my area. My wife just spent a week at the Dartmouth hospital and every time I drove there I thought “this is a palace in the mountains”. I don’t know about their astrophysics. My friend from here went to MIT for astrophysics and that seems like the place to be to me. Otherwise Dartmouth is the ideal.

I just read the book Hild which gave me the concept of a “royal Ville” which I took to mean a Kings village. Dartmouth fits the bill. It’s a place of kings and their kin. Of royals.

I think it’s the best. Listen to some Noah Khan. His music will give the essence.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 01, 2024, 06:20:40 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 01, 2024, 03:21:19 PM

Quote from: couponvan on March 01, 2024, 05:33:46 AM

I didn’t do one this month because we are traveling-next month has DH’s annual bonus so we will get a bump unless the market swings wipe it out. The idea that we can cash flow $125K of tuition costs in a year without taking out student loans puts us in the race at the middle and treading water for the most part. We have another year of this before we can go down to just one tuition cost and then freedom….

125K a year in tuition costs...ouch!  How long will that go on?

We are sooooo thankful that this is our last year of paying for college.  I think I mentioned this previously, but both kids graduate this spring!  One will be getting a masters degree from UNC chapel hill and wants to be a therapist, and one is graduating from the University on Minnesota with a physics/astrophysics double major.  We have 529's for them both...but it never seems to be enough.  We will be able to get them out of school without loans though, which was our goal from the start.

I think I also mentioned that the physics/astrophysics kid was looking for a fully paid grad school gig.  Well...he was accepted at Dartmouth and is waiting on the University of Michigan, Boston college, and a few others ( schools with good space physics PhD programs ).  The Dartmouth acceptance was the first one and was a huge load off for both him and us.  It is a fully paid PhD gig with full tuition, healthcare, and a 40K stipend.  Not too shabby!

Anyone have experience with the Dartmouth area ( New Hampshire / Vermont )?  Looks like a pretty cool location.   Boston is fairly close, as is Montreal.  As Minnesotans, we are not too familiar with the NE USA.   It has been fun visiting our daughter in Chapel Hill, NC....TONS of stuff to do within a few hour drive.

This is only for two years-then it will go down to $67K for one more year. She had a Minnesota option for cheap, BUT April Fools Day last year you all had a blizzard and some crappy white frat boys were not cool to us after our rental car got stuck. Then the few Asian kids  we did see were basically alone, so it gave a weird “white kids only” vibe. The South isn’t super Asian friendly either right now, and UCSD is.

A paid graduate program is ideal! Dartmouth sounds fancy too!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 01, 2024, 07:54:53 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 01, 2024, 03:31:38 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 01, 2024, 03:14:15 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 01, 2024, 01:35:54 PM

Quote from: dividendman on March 01, 2024, 01:01:37 PM

You richies still eat out eh? Figures.

I was talking to friends recently - topic was about the cost of ordering on Doordash. I mentioned that I have never ordered on Doordash - there was stunned silence. I also mentioned that we eat out only a couple times a year other than when we are traveling. More silence :-)

Thanks to the recent upswing, our NW is up so much since November that I hesitate even to mention the amount...

Thankyou.. I mean you don't want to de-motivate us under achievers..:)

No kidding on Doordash...we tried ordering it one time and were appalled at how much it costs.  Frankly, we would much rather cook and eat in rather than order food or go out to eat.  We are cheap asses through and through...even though we are right at "and beyond" territory.  We just don't like feeling like we got ripped off, etc...

Hmm..maybe being "cheap asses" is how many of us got to where we are...eh?

At the very least I would rather save the huge mark-ups, fees, and charges and just take the 5 minutes to go get it myself.  Somebody gave us a gift card to Uber eats and what would normally have been like $25 in food required a $50 gift card - I don't get it. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 02, 2024, 04:22:35 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 01, 2024, 03:14:15 PM

Thankyou.. I mean you don't want to de-motivate us under achievers..:)

Not worried about demotivating others so much but rather that my membership in this forum will be revoked for overshooting the upper limit 😀

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on March 02, 2024, 08:06:23 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on March 01, 2024, 07:54:53 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 01, 2024, 03:31:38 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 01, 2024, 03:14:15 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on March 01, 2024, 01:35:54 PM

Quote from: dividendman on March 01, 2024, 01:01:37 PM

You richies still eat out eh? Figures.

I was talking to friends recently - topic was about the cost of ordering on Doordash. I mentioned that I have never ordered on Doordash - there was stunned silence. I also mentioned that we eat out only a couple times a year other than when we are traveling. More silence :-)

Thanks to the recent upswing, our NW is up so much since November that I hesitate even to mention the amount...

Thankyou.. I mean you don't want to de-motivate us under achievers..:)

No kidding on Doordash...we tried ordering it one time and were appalled at how much it costs.  Frankly, we would much rather cook and eat in rather than order food or go out to eat.  We are cheap asses through and through...even though we are right at "and beyond" territory.  We just don't like feeling like we got ripped off, etc...

Hmm..maybe being "cheap asses" is how many of us got to where we are...eh?

At the very least I would rather save the huge mark-ups, fees, and charges and just take the 5 minutes to go get it myself.  Somebody gave us a gift card to Uber eats and what would normally have been like $25 in food required a $50 gift card - I don't get it.

Exactly.  The Doordash fees/charges/markups are just ridiculous.   Instacart is similar...the markups on items is pretty off-putting as well.

We do often order groceries online though, and Walmart has turned out ot be a surprisingly great option.  No item markups, order pickup is free, and delivery fees are reasonable.  I'm NOT generally a fan of the in-store experience at Walmart, and we were very skeptical about online ordering at first, but it has turned out to be a great service.  More than worth it to have someone else shop for us, and the quality of produce, etc...has been very good.  I'd guess your mileage will vary, of course, depending on the area/store though.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on March 02, 2024, 08:11:29 AM

Quote from: couponvan on March 01, 2024, 06:20:40 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 01, 2024, 03:21:19 PM

Quote from: couponvan on March 01, 2024, 05:33:46 AM

I didn’t do one this month because we are traveling-next month has DH’s annual bonus so we will get a bump unless the market swings wipe it out. The idea that we can cash flow $125K of tuition costs in a year without taking out student loans puts us in the race at the middle and treading water for the most part. We have another year of this before we can go down to just one tuition cost and then freedom….

125K a year in tuition costs...ouch!  How long will that go on?

We are sooooo thankful that this is our last year of paying for college.  I think I mentioned this previously, but both kids graduate this spring!  One will be getting a masters degree from UNC chapel hill and wants to be a therapist, and one is graduating from the University on Minnesota with a physics/astrophysics double major.  We have 529's for them both...but it never seems to be enough.  We will be able to get them out of school without loans though, which was our goal from the start.

I think I also mentioned that the physics/astrophysics kid was looking for a fully paid grad school gig.  Well...he was accepted at Dartmouth and is waiting on the University of Michigan, Boston college, and a few others ( schools with good space physics PhD programs ).  The Dartmouth acceptance was the first one and was a huge load off for both him and us.  It is a fully paid PhD gig with full tuition, healthcare, and a 40K stipend.  Not too shabby!

Anyone have experience with the Dartmouth area ( New Hampshire / Vermont )?  Looks like a pretty cool location.   Boston is fairly close, as is Montreal.  As Minnesotans, we are not too familiar with the NE USA.   It has been fun visiting our daughter in Chapel Hill, NC....TONS of stuff to do within a few hour drive.

This is only for two years-then it will go down to $67K for one more year. She had a Minnesota option for cheap, BUT April Fools Day last year you all had a blizzard and some crappy white frat boys were not cool to us after our rental car got stuck. Then the few Asian kids  we did see were basically alone, so it gave a weird “white kids only” vibe. The South isn’t super Asian friendly either right now, and UCSD is.

A paid graduate program is ideal! Dartmouth sounds fancy too!

Well darn, bummer about your MN experience as we are usually much more welcoming.  Your experience isn't the norm.  BTW - my daughter's boyfriend is asian...they met at the University of Minnesota in their bachelors degree days.  His experience was MUCH better in Minnesota than in North Carolina.  He has had a few not so great experiences in NC involving racism, etc...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 02, 2024, 08:36:25 AM

Quote from: lhamo on March 01, 2024, 07:08:29 AM

I decided to sell a few more shares a couple of days ago as their value was already higher than what I had sold for a couple of weeks prior.  Of course yesterday they hit yet ANOTHER all time high.  "Lost" $120 by selling two days early.  Whomp whomp. 

It's fine.  I don't need to hit the market high with every adjustment.  But it sure feels nice when I do!

My brother recently sold a bunch of shares of his company stock and then it had a huge rally. He figures it "cost' him $125k. He's choosing to focus on what he paid for the stock. Smart guy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 02, 2024, 10:59:42 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 02, 2024, 08:36:25 AM

Quote from: lhamo on March 01, 2024, 07:08:29 AM

I decided to sell a few more shares a couple of days ago as their value was already higher than what I had sold for a couple of weeks prior.  Of course yesterday they hit yet ANOTHER all time high.  "Lost" $120 by selling two days early.  Whomp whomp. 

It's fine.  I don't need to hit the market high with every adjustment.  But it sure feels nice when I do!

My brother recently sold a bunch of shares of his company stock and then it had a huge rally. He figures it "cost' him $125k. He's choosing to focus on what he paid for the stock. Smart guy.

Yup you never know.. I had over $100k value in company stock options that expired worthless because the once great company was mis-managed into a shadow of its former self.

Its a tiny hit to us now but when that represented one third of our net worth, well that was a gut punch. Loss aversion, its a thing!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on March 02, 2024, 11:40:20 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 02, 2024, 10:59:42 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 02, 2024, 08:36:25 AM

Quote from: lhamo on March 01, 2024, 07:08:29 AM

I decided to sell a few more shares a couple of days ago as their value was already higher than what I had sold for a couple of weeks prior.  Of course yesterday they hit yet ANOTHER all time high.  "Lost" $120 by selling two days early.  Whomp whomp. 

It's fine.  I don't need to hit the market high with every adjustment.  But it sure feels nice when I do!

My brother recently sold a bunch of shares of his company stock and then it had a huge rally. He figures it "cost' him $125k. He's choosing to focus on what he paid for the stock. Smart guy.

Yup you never know.. I had over $100k value in company stock options that expired worthless because the once great company was mis-managed into a shadow of its former self.

Its a tiny hit to us now but when that represented one third of our net worth, well that was a gut punch. Loss aversion, its a thing!

DH's first employer crashed liked that.

Current employer is up over 8% since we sold the last batch of RSUs. Ah well, we funded Roth IRAs and I bonds with those proceeds, so it went to good use.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on March 05, 2024, 03:13:28 PM

There has been some talk here recently by some of us potentially going past "the beyond" point. 

Well...I came across this thread on Bogleheads.  Gotta love threads like this.  The OP has around 10M net worth, 6M just in equities, and is wondering if he can retire.  🤣  The difference between mustachians and others can be stark!

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=425958

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 05, 2024, 03:24:49 PM

With three kids under 5 and those assets, I would move to the BEST MCOL school district in the country and then look for work in 3-6 months when the oldest starts kindergarten. Bogleheads people problems. LOL.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 05, 2024, 04:44:03 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 05, 2024, 03:13:28 PM

There has been some talk here recently by some of us potentially going past "the beyond" point. 

Well...I came across this thread on Bogleheads.  Gotta love threads like this.  The OP has around 10M net worth, 6M just in equities, and is wondering if he can retire.  🤣  The difference between mustachians and others can be stark!

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=425958

I don’t know, even as we pass into “Beyond” territory, DW isn’t able to have a conversation with me about RE. Shes notorious cheap, and for years we lamented her father who was frugal and retired early and has frittered away the time while his NW continues to grow, and yet as I’m shifting my mindset toward prioritizing time over money, she’s having trouble adjusting. Ah, the struggles of the rich…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 05, 2024, 05:17:36 PM

Quote from: Taran Wanderer on March 05, 2024, 04:44:03 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 05, 2024, 03:13:28 PM

There has been some talk here recently by some of us potentially going past "the beyond" point. 

Well...I came across this thread on Bogleheads.  Gotta love threads like this.  The OP has around 10M net worth, 6M just in equities, and is wondering if he can retire.  🤣  The difference between mustachians and others can be stark!

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=425958

I don’t know, even as we pass into “Beyond” territory, DW isn’t able to have a conversation with me about RE. Shes notorious cheap, and for years we lamented her father who was frugal and retired early and has frittered away the time while his NW continues to grow, and yet as I’m shifting my mindset toward prioritizing time over money, she’s having trouble adjusting. Ah, the struggles of the rich…

I know right? There really should be a Government funded support group with cash handouts to sooth the transition!.. (He says as he pays $1:15/month for a Bronze plan).

Mind you we managed to RE, but fear of spending is a real thing!

Good job my renters want to stay in my crappy trailer for the next 3 to 5 years or I don't know how we'd survive..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 10, 2024, 04:07:59 AM

The FATFire subreddit is always good for a laugh but, for a change, I actually found this discussion (https://www.reddit.com/r/fatFIRE/comments/1ba80q6/uhnw_30m100m_lifestyles/) interesting. The question was about how UHNW lifestyles differ from merely HNW lifestyles.

In the words of one commentator, it comes down to the usual stuff: "Houses, Horses, Planes, and boats (yachts), Art. and some collector cars."

There are a few compulsive shoppers, like this one (https://www.reddit.com/r/fatFIRE/comments/1ba80q6/comment/ku0xiyz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).

Quote

I'm on the edge of pulling a full reset, dumping everything but a couple cars and toys I actually use. My problem is I've always been goal oriented and when I get a financial win I buy something and need to refocus that energy into something else.
Just this week I made an extra 6 figures and was looking at buying another motorcycle tomorrow. Already have 3.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Zamboni on March 10, 2024, 10:27:45 AM

@farmecologist Dartmouth is a posh club, and it's small . . . which makes it an even posher (more posh?) club. King's village is a good description. So does your child want to meet kings? It's a place that is very much about making the connections, if one is a connector-type person.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 10, 2024, 08:39:32 PM

My work can bring me into the homes of UHNW individuals.  Everything is bigger.  But the biggest difference is the staff.  Having a full time staff as in multiple people to run your home is the most obvious difference.  For example, this week I was in a home associated with the founder of Oracle.  5 levels, a house keeper, a cook, and a Gardner.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on March 10, 2024, 09:18:10 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on March 10, 2024, 08:39:32 PM

My work can bring me into the homes of UHNW individuals.  Everything is bigger.  But the biggest difference is the staff.  Having a full time staff as in multiple people to run your home is the most obvious difference.  For example, this week I was in a home associated with the founder of Oracle.  5 levels, a house keeper, a cook, and a Gardner.

That sounds like having a job... the exact thing I don't want.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 11, 2024, 04:07:47 AM

Quote from: dividendman on March 10, 2024, 09:18:10 PM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on March 10, 2024, 08:39:32 PM

My work can bring me into the homes of UHNW individuals.  Everything is bigger.  But the biggest difference is the staff.  Having a full time staff as in multiple people to run your home is the most obvious difference.  For example, this week I was in a home associated with the founder of Oracle.  5 levels, a house keeper, a cook, and a Gardner.

That sounds like having a job... the exact thing I don't want.

And the staff probably enjoy the house more than the owner :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 11, 2024, 11:29:56 AM

Yeah, managing a house staff sounds miserable. I suppose if you had a really good butler and left everything to her, it could work. #problemsoftheultrawealthy

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 11, 2024, 12:01:24 PM

We were thrust in to an interesting social experiment during our 3 year expat time in Dubai.  People from all over the world seem to 'adjust' pretty quickly to having staff when it is the expected norm.  We were pestered (and ostracized) for not taking on a nanny for our 2 children, as though our mirror to others was a bit too unpleasant, with the constant refrain 'but you are supposed to hire them, it provides them work'...  Little mention of the fact they are underpaid and have to give you their passports, while also having a very unfair legal and social dynamic stacked against them.  Yes, many staff choose 'freely' to come to the Middle East from India, Philippines, Indonesia etc. for this, but it's still repugnant to know better and still indulge - or maybe that's just a vestigial moral code.

I'm just writing all this because many people like to think they would 'hate' to have gardeners, maids, cooks, etc. but suddenly found them indispensable when the social and financial restrictions weren't there...  We did have an easier time returning to the US.  Others typically tried to continue with at least a nanny, but it became much tougher when you are the only one in your home country with one and you also have to pay them living wages, give them vacations, and allow them freedom to leave at any time.

I view the UHNW social cohort as being like a mini-Middle East...  They all have staff and the pay is a relative pittance to what they could afford.  The only thing that would keep most from having staff would be choice when surrounded by others and the expectations that it only makes sense to hire others to do certain tasks.  I've heard a million times in our neighborhood that we should stop doing our yardcare because there are so many willing Mexicans desperate for the work, and having a chef only makes sense so that we can focus more on eating well and ourselves... 

I'm honestly not sure why we have this 'Mustachian' bent while so many others with our situation (or in many cases, less NW) do not.  It hasn't always served us well in terms of fitting in and moving up the social ladder.  But it is what it is...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: dividendman on March 11, 2024, 12:19:58 PM

Yeah, it is interesting.

Then again, I'm the kind of guy who leaves the house for the day when my significant other gets house cleaning (maybe once a year). I can't stand sitting around at home eating Doritos and watching re-runs of Seinfeld while someone is busting their ass cleaning my house.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 11, 2024, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 11, 2024, 12:01:24 PM

We were thrust in to an interesting social experiment during our 3 year expat time in Dubai.  People from all over the world seem to 'adjust' pretty quickly to having staff when it is the expected norm.

I spent 13 months in Ethiopia.  The house I was in came with a maid/cook and a gardener/gatekeeper.    I was also assigned a part-time driver.  (I had no car.)   This house was going to be used by multiple people after my tour of duty.   I mostly left things as they were.   

I was working massive hours (at work and then more when I got back to the house) and had zero interest or time to maintain a property I didn't own and didn't care about and was too busy to enjoy. 

I did shoo the maid/cook out of the place whenever I got home early.  Only had her cook for me once.  (She was very good!)  I just didn't like a servant puttering about the place while I was there.   

I did like having the driver, though.   Not because I liked being driven around, I don't.   I liked it because in Ethiopia, if a driver hits a pedestrian, the driver is at fault.  Period.  Ethiopian pedestrians do a lot of crazy stuff.  They never look before they enter the street.  I've seen them spin 180 degrees from a standing start facing away from the road and leap into the road - then look.   After a few days of watching those pedestrians, I had no desire whatsoever to drive in that country.

Enjoyed the place despite the hours and lack of western amenities.   

How may Ethiopians does it take to change your flat tire?

Every single one who sees you need help.  That's how many.  Good people.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 11, 2024, 03:25:15 PM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 11, 2024, 01:56:12 PM

Every single one who sees you need help.  That's how many.  Good people.

Love this  :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: cloudsail on March 12, 2024, 12:46:13 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on November 20, 2019, 01:59:04 PM

Hi everyone! Our LNW passed $2.15M yesterday, so I am joining you all in this thread. Here's to the next million!

So COVID kind of threw a wrench in our long term plans and our life changed a lot over the past few years, partly why I stopped coming to this forum. But I found this post I made over four years ago and just wanted to give an update. Our LNW is now at 6.5M. After a certain point, your money really does increase exponentially. I wouldn't have believed this ten years ago.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 12, 2024, 02:18:20 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on March 12, 2024, 12:46:13 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on November 20, 2019, 01:59:04 PM

Hi everyone! Our LNW passed $2.15M yesterday, so I am joining you all in this thread. Here's to the next million!

So COVID kind of threw a wrench in our long term plans and our life changed a lot over the past few years, partly why I stopped coming to this forum. But I found this post I made over four years ago and just wanted to give an update. Our LNW is now at 6.5M. After a certain point, your money really does increase exponentially. I wouldn't have believed this ten years ago.

Damn thats amazing.. Well done!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: 2KidFIRE on March 12, 2024, 02:45:43 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on March 12, 2024, 12:46:13 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on November 20, 2019, 01:59:04 PM

Hi everyone! Our LNW passed $2.15M yesterday, so I am joining you all in this thread. Here's to the next million!

So COVID kind of threw a wrench in our long term plans and our life changed a lot over the past few years, partly why I stopped coming to this forum. But I found this post I made over four years ago and just wanted to give an update. Our LNW is now at 6.5M. After a certain point, your money really does increase exponentially. I wouldn't have believed this ten years ago.

Congratulations, that's amazing!

I was just doing my annual update to our Case Study and realized that as of the end of February we'd crossed into the "and beyond" territory and I hadn't even realized it!  I'm sure that will change again, maybe even this month, but it's still startling to see :)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 12, 2024, 03:09:06 PM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on March 12, 2024, 02:45:43 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on March 12, 2024, 12:46:13 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on November 20, 2019, 01:59:04 PM

Hi everyone! Our LNW passed $2.15M yesterday, so I am joining you all in this thread. Here's to the next million!

So COVID kind of threw a wrench in our long term plans and our life changed a lot over the past few years, partly why I stopped coming to this forum. But I found this post I made over four years ago and just wanted to give an update. Our LNW is now at 6.5M. After a certain point, your money really does increase exponentially. I wouldn't have believed this ten years ago.

Congratulations, that's amazing!

I was just doing my annual update to our Case Study and realized that as of the end of February we'd crossed into the "and beyond" territory and I hadn't even realized it!  I'm sure that will change again, maybe even this month, but it's still startling to see :)

We crossed there too.  However, it's not stable up in these stratospheric heights.  A lot of countries are in recession and I expect the US will follow.  The stock market will go through a "correction."  I guess being in these heights needs to be "corrected."

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 13, 2024, 01:03:41 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 12, 2024, 03:09:06 PM

Quote from: 2KidFIRE on March 12, 2024, 02:45:43 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on March 12, 2024, 12:46:13 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on November 20, 2019, 01:59:04 PM

Hi everyone! Our LNW passed $2.15M yesterday, so I am joining you all in this thread. Here's to the next million!

So COVID kind of threw a wrench in our long term plans and our life changed a lot over the past few years, partly why I stopped coming to this forum. But I found this post I made over four years ago and just wanted to give an update. Our LNW is now at 6.5M. After a certain point, your money really does increase exponentially. I wouldn't have believed this ten years ago.

Congratulations, that's amazing!

I was just doing my annual update to our Case Study and realized that as of the end of February we'd crossed into the "and beyond" territory and I hadn't even realized it!  I'm sure that will change again, maybe even this month, but it's still startling to see :)

We crossed there too.  However, it's not stable up in these stratospheric heights.  A lot of countries are in recession and I expect the US will follow.  The stock market will go through a "correction."  I guess being in these heights needs to be "corrected."

Perhaps it won't. Nobody knows. Best of all, it really doesn't matter.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 13, 2024, 05:22:49 AM

My NW has finally returned to its Nov 2021 highs of $4.9M.  There's been a lot of spending (mainly remodeling cabin from the ground up) but the international component of my investments (which has seriously underperformed the US for a long while now) is the main reason it took so long. Like 3 years ago I'm on $5M watch again...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on March 13, 2024, 10:38:17 AM

The talk of whether or not we stay above certain milestones inspired me to run some numbers. Even a 30% drop in portfolio value (and no, we are not 100% equities) would leave us in a decent place. I am still amazed at the options we have lined up for ourselves.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on March 13, 2024, 11:08:34 AM

My retirement accounts are inching closer and closer to 1 mill.  Top is in, maybe?  I hope not...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: cloudsail on March 13, 2024, 12:54:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 12, 2024, 02:18:20 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on March 12, 2024, 12:46:13 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on November 20, 2019, 01:59:04 PM

Hi everyone! Our LNW passed $2.15M yesterday, so I am joining you all in this thread. Here's to the next million!

So COVID kind of threw a wrench in our long term plans and our life changed a lot over the past few years, partly why I stopped coming to this forum. But I found this post I made over four years ago and just wanted to give an update. Our LNW is now at 6.5M. After a certain point, your money really does increase exponentially. I wouldn't have believed this ten years ago.

Damn thats amazing.. Well done!

I feel a little ashamed because we have definitely strayed from mustachian ways *nervous laughter* but we wouldn't be where we are if I hadn't found MMM and the other FIRE bloggers ten years ago. At the same time, even though we spent on some pretty crazy luxuries (a lake house, a boat, an electric truck), we still managed to double our net worth without my husband's salary increasing beyond the rate of inflation. I think this is a real testament to how important investing (wisely) is and how past a certain point, you just need to be conscious about your spending (e.g. forego that country club membership, say no to the professional gardening service) and your money will multiply on its own.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on March 13, 2024, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: lhamo on March 13, 2024, 11:08:34 AM

My retirement accounts are inching closer and closer to 1 mill.  Top is in, maybe?  I hope not...

DH is so close to being a one brokerage millionaire. There is always a dip as we get close to any milestone, I can't imagine he will make that one any time soon....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on March 13, 2024, 02:21:56 PM

Quote from: ixtap on March 13, 2024, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: lhamo on March 13, 2024, 11:08:34 AM

My retirement accounts are inching closer and closer to 1 mill.  Top is in, maybe?  I hope not...

DH is so close to being a one brokerage millionaire. There is always a dip as we get close to any milestone, I can't imagine he will make that one any time soon....

Even with some consolidation, I haven't made it to double commas in any single place yet either.  It may or may not happen between now and when I put in my notice in a couple years.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on March 13, 2024, 06:18:52 PM

Quote from: Turtle on March 13, 2024, 02:21:56 PM

Quote from: ixtap on March 13, 2024, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: lhamo on March 13, 2024, 11:08:34 AM

My retirement accounts are inching closer and closer to 1 mill.  Top is in, maybe?  I hope not...

DH is so close to being a one brokerage millionaire. There is always a dip as we get close to any milestone, I can't imagine he will make that one any time soon....

Even with some consolidation, I haven't made it to double commas in any single place yet either.  It may or may not happen between now and when I put in my notice in a couple years.

My spouse should hit it in her 401k before long. Mine has shifted to 85% bonds and 15% international, so it’s lucky to increase at all, fortunately the 10% match and catch-up fakes it upwards…

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 13, 2024, 06:24:25 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on March 13, 2024, 06:18:52 PM

Quote from: Turtle on March 13, 2024, 02:21:56 PM

Quote from: ixtap on March 13, 2024, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: lhamo on March 13, 2024, 11:08:34 AM

My retirement accounts are inching closer and closer to 1 mill.  Top is in, maybe?  I hope not...

DH is so close to being a one brokerage millionaire. There is always a dip as we get close to any milestone, I can't imagine he will make that one any time soon....

Even with some consolidation, I haven't made it to double commas in any single place yet either.  It may or may not happen between now and when I put in my notice in a couple years.

My spouse should hit it in her 401k before long. Mine has shifted to 85% bonds and 15% international, so it’s lucky to increase at all, fortunately the 10% match and catch-up fakes it upwards…

Why so conservative? Asking for a friend...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on March 13, 2024, 06:35:51 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 13, 2024, 06:24:25 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on March 13, 2024, 06:18:52 PM

Quote from: Turtle on March 13, 2024, 02:21:56 PM

Quote from: ixtap on March 13, 2024, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: lhamo on March 13, 2024, 11:08:34 AM

My retirement accounts are inching closer and closer to 1 mill.  Top is in, maybe?  I hope not...

DH is so close to being a one brokerage millionaire. There is always a dip as we get close to any milestone, I can't imagine he will make that one any time soon....

Even with some consolidation, I haven't made it to double commas in any single place yet either.  It may or may not happen between now and when I put in my notice in a couple years.

My spouse should hit it in her 401k before long. Mine has shifted to 85% bonds and 15% international, so it’s lucky to increase at all, fortunately the 10% match and catch-up fakes it upwards…

Wht so conservative? Asking for a friend...

DH's 401ks look like this in order to achieve an overall 70/30. The rest of the bonds are in my tax deferred accounts and I bonds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on March 13, 2024, 07:43:07 PM

Quote from: ixtap on March 13, 2024, 06:35:51 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 13, 2024, 06:24:25 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on March 13, 2024, 06:18:52 PM

Quote from: Turtle on March 13, 2024, 02:21:56 PM

Quote from: ixtap on March 13, 2024, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: lhamo on March 13, 2024, 11:08:34 AM

My retirement accounts are inching closer and closer to 1 mill.  Top is in, maybe?  I hope not...

DH is so close to being a one brokerage millionaire. There is always a dip as we get close to any milestone, I can't imagine he will make that one any time soon....

Even with some consolidation, I haven't made it to double commas in any single place yet either.  It may or may not happen between now and when I put in my notice in a couple years.

My spouse should hit it in her 401k before long. Mine has shifted to 85% bonds and 15% international, so it’s lucky to increase at all, fortunately the 10% match and catch-up fakes it upwards…

Wht so conservative? Asking for a friend...

DH's 401ks look like this in order to achieve an overall 70/30. The rest of the bonds are in my tax deferred accounts and I bonds.

Yep, same here. Have even started shifting my rollover IRA at Vanguard from 100% equity (VTSAX) to about 90/10 (VBTLX). Trying to get our overall AA from 85/15 to 75/25 over the next year, and between her 401k, taxable and the market…the struggle is real. If the market keeps doing what it’s doing I will have to be really aggressive sometime this year. Especially with a target of maybe 65/35 the following year. Woah is me in the final phase of accumulation.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 13, 2024, 10:00:04 PM

Quote from: ixtap on March 13, 2024, 06:35:51 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 13, 2024, 06:24:25 PM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on March 13, 2024, 06:18:52 PM

Quote from: Turtle on March 13, 2024, 02:21:56 PM

Quote from: ixtap on March 13, 2024, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: lhamo on March 13, 2024, 11:08:34 AM

My retirement accounts are inching closer and closer to 1 mill.  Top is in, maybe?  I hope not...

DH is so close to being a one brokerage millionaire. There is always a dip as we get close to any milestone, I can't imagine he will make that one any time soon....

Even with some consolidation, I haven't made it to double commas in any single place yet either.  It may or may not happen between now and when I put in my notice in a couple years.

My spouse should hit it in her 401k before long. Mine has shifted to 85% bonds and 15% international, so it’s lucky to increase at all, fortunately the 10% match and catch-up fakes it upwards…

Wht so conservative? Asking for a friend...

DH's 401ks look like this in order to achieve an overall 70/30. The rest of the bonds are in my tax deferred accounts and I bonds.

Whew! You had me wor-ried.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 14, 2024, 07:12:39 AM

@Dicey The Bogleheads wiki has a good article about this: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-efficient_fund_placement

I had a bit of an epiphany after reading this last year - until then I had been trying to maintain my desired asset allocation (60/40) in separately in both tax deferred and taxable. After reading his article, I decided to switch to asset allocation on my portfolio as a whole, ie both taxable and tax deferred. We have over $3M in stock in our taxable brokerage so, as a counterweight, my own IRA is mostly bonds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 14, 2024, 07:47:28 AM

Quote from: cloudsail on March 13, 2024, 12:54:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 12, 2024, 02:18:20 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on March 12, 2024, 12:46:13 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on November 20, 2019, 01:59:04 PM

Hi everyone! Our LNW passed $2.15M yesterday, so I am joining you all in this thread. Here's to the next million!

So COVID kind of threw a wrench in our long term plans and our life changed a lot over the past few years, partly why I stopped coming to this forum. But I found this post I made over four years ago and just wanted to give an update. Our LNW is now at 6.5M. After a certain point, your money really does increase exponentially. I wouldn't have believed this ten years ago.

Damn thats amazing.. Well done!

I feel a little ashamed because we have definitely strayed from mustachian ways *nervous laughter* but we wouldn't be where we are if I hadn't found MMM and the other FIRE bloggers ten years ago. At the same time, even though we spent on some pretty crazy luxuries (a lake house, a boat, an electric truck), we still managed to double our net worth without my husband's salary increasing beyond the rate of inflation. I think this is a real testament to how important investing (wisely) is and how past a certain point, you just need to be conscious about your spending (e.g. forego that country club membership, say no to the professional gardening service) and your money will multiply on its own.

That's terrific.  We're you heavy in Tesla, Nvidia or such?   SP500 had 14.3% CAGR including dividends) over that time period so to go from $2.15M to $6.5M would have retired beating SP 500 by 10 pts (24% CAGR)  or contributing about $375k annually, or some combination. 

Just curious if great investing, inheritance, sale of property, super high income, etc?   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
Post by: cloudsail on March 14, 2024, 11:57:54 AM

Quote from: tooqk4u22 on March 14, 2024, 07:47:28 AM

Quote from: cloudsail on March 13, 2024, 12:54:25 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 12, 2024, 02:18:20 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on March 12, 2024, 12:46:13 PM

Quote from: cloudsail on November 20, 2019, 01:59:04 PM

Hi everyone! Our LNW passed $2.15M yesterday, so I am joining you all in this thread. Here's to the next million!

So COVID kind of threw a wrench in our long term plans and our life changed a lot over the past few years, partly why I stopped coming to this forum. But I found this post I made over four years ago and just wanted to give an update. Our LNW is now at 6.5M. After a certain point, your money really does increase exponentially. I wouldn't have believed this ten years ago.

Damn thats amazing.. Well done!

I feel a little ashamed because we have definitely strayed from mustachian ways *nervous laughter* but we wouldn't be where we are if I hadn't found MMM and the other FIRE bloggers ten years ago. At the same time, even though we spent on some pretty crazy luxuries (a lake house, a boat, an electric truck), we still managed to double our net worth without my husband's salary increasing beyond the rate of inflation. I think this is a real testament to how important investing (wisely) is and how past a certain point, you just need to be conscious about your spending (e.g. forego that country club membership, say no to the professional gardening service) and your money will multiply on its own.

That's terrific.  We're you heavy in Tesla, Nvidia or such?   SP500 had 14.3% CAGR including dividends) over that time period so to go from $2.15M to $6.5M would have retired beating SP 500 by 10 pts (24% CAGR)  or contributing about $375k annually, or some combination. 

Just curious if great investing, inheritance, sale of property, super high income, etc?

Yes, we are actively contributing to our stash still. We do still save a significant portion of our sizable income, so it isn't all investments lol. We're not frugal anymore by any stretch of the imagination but we haven't gone completely off the rails.

We do have high exposure in one stock because my husband works there, and it has done well but not phenomenally. Due to high volatility we may have done better than the SP500 depending on when the vesting dates were, hard to figure out because we also sell periodically. My husband got a large jump in pay in late 2016/early 2017, which is what brought us to 2+M in late 2019. His salary has actually decreased since those days due to how compensation works at these companies (you make the most money the first few years you work there unless you get promoted), but obviously it's still quite a lot.

So basically it took us 9 years to get to 1M, 3 years to get to 2M, then 4 years to get to 6M.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 14, 2024, 12:50:07 PM

My personal 401K is sitting at 1.95M and even though it's silly, I'm wanting to see it hit 2M. Our combined accounts is 3.7M and nonprimary real estate added totals over 4M.
Haven't made any draws to the 401K yet, but I will be to backdoor Roth IRA this year. Is it wrong to not want to fund the back door, because you hate to see the big guy drop in value? The stupid things we think once we have real money.
My last ever day with my company is March 22. I should have been gone May 2023, but managed to only work about 50 percent of the time since then and never missed a full paycheck. I got out at 55. Now I'm a full time hiker and bicyclist. My wife will be a full time basketball fan.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on March 15, 2024, 08:45:08 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 14, 2024, 12:50:07 PM

My personal 401K is sitting at 1.95M and even though it's silly, I'm wanting to see it hit 2M. Our combined accounts is 3.7M and nonprimary real estate added totals over 4M.
Haven't made any draws to the 401K yet, but I will be to backdoor Roth IRA this year. Is it wrong to not want to fund the back door, because you hate to see the big guy drop in value? The stupid things we think once we have real money.
My last ever day with my company is March 22. I should have been gone May 2023, but managed to only work about 50 percent of the time since then and never missed a full paycheck. I got out at 55. Now I'm a full time hiker and bicyclist. My wife will be a full time basketball fan.

Our balance can fluctuate wildly, mostly because I trade high risk stocks ( mostly biotech ) with my brokerage account that started out as "fun money"...but certainly is much more than that now.  In fact, after being above 4M for a while this year, we are slightly under now.  Stock trading isn't for everyone, and due to wall St. manipulation you have to have "balls of steel" to be in some of these stocks.  However, it has paid off handsomely over the years and has been a very nice side gig, and I find it to be a fun "hobby" in a weird sort of way.

All of our other non "fun money" accounts, retirement accounts, etc... are in sensible "bogleheads" types of investments.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 19, 2024, 09:05:43 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 14, 2024, 12:50:07 PM

My personal 401K is sitting at 1.95M and even though it's silly, I'm wanting to see it hit 2M. Our combined accounts is 3.7M and nonprimary real estate added totals over 4M.
Haven't made any draws to the 401K yet, but I will be to backdoor Roth IRA this year. Is it wrong to not want to fund the back door, because you hate to see the big guy drop in value? The stupid things we think once we have real money.
My last ever day with my company is March 22. I should have been gone May 2023, but managed to only work about 50 percent of the time since then and never missed a full paycheck. I got out at 55. Now I'm a full time hiker and bicyclist. My wife will be a full time basketball fan.

Wow!  Three days to freedom!   Some Fridays are better than others. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on March 19, 2024, 09:40:57 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 14, 2024, 12:50:07 PM

My personal 401K is sitting at 1.95M and even though it's silly, I'm wanting to see it hit 2M. Our combined accounts is 3.7M and nonprimary real estate added totals over 4M.
Haven't made any draws to the 401K yet, but I will be to backdoor Roth IRA this year. Is it wrong to not want to fund the back door, because you hate to see the big guy drop in value? The stupid things we think once we have real money.
My last ever day with my company is March 22. I should have been gone May 2023, but managed to only work about 50 percent of the time since then and never missed a full paycheck. I got out at 55. Now I'm a full time hiker and bicyclist. My wife will be a full time basketball fan.

Congratulations!  Are they having a going away party for you at work?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on March 20, 2024, 05:44:39 AM

It was a bit wild for me to watch my individual NW soar past our race's midway mark, if only for a couple of hours last week, as I was traipsing around New Zealand.  I suppose this could forever be my NW's high-water-mark, but if I make it to 70 I'll start getting a boost from SS that might help tip it back over the line even if the markets never get higher than this (i.e. 'The Top is In').

The trip was expensive yet I return to more money than when I left. The 'magic firehose of money' can't go on forever, so it's a good thing I don't usually spend quite like I did on this trip.  A lot of the costs were really hard to avoid - $1k airfare, $500 in hut fees and shuttle bus reservations to do the treks, $500 for my share of car rentals, $200 gas, pricier hotels and AirBnbs due to summer season ($125/night avg. I think).  Probably will wind up costing me around $7k for everything, or around $1,750/week.  That's more than I have budgeted for this year's travel on a weekly basis ($1,500/wk), but I have two cheaper per week trips coming up (Sumatra, then Serbia/Montenegro/Albania) that should get the numbers back in line.

It was fun to never have had to use cash for anything in NZ - I took out $100 before I left and returned with $100 - and virtually everything is tap-to-pay as well. Even all the vendors at the local agricultural fair we happened upon in Wanaka were cashless.

By the way, anybody who does multi-day hikes would be well advised to grab a reservation for one of New Zealand's Great Walks in the 24-25 season when they become available in a few weeks!  They are really fantastic, especially when you get very lucky with the weather as I did!  I did the Routeburn, Kepler, and Milford Tracks (in that order) and loved all three, and did day hikes on the Queen Charlotte Track as well as the Tongariro Alpine Crossing, on top of local walks up Ben Lomond mountain above Queenstown, and up Mount Mounganui in Tauranga.  It was all beautiful, mostly challenging with lots of elevation gain, and a fantastic collective experience as well with the other hikers that you would meet in the huts and along the trail.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 20, 2024, 08:16:19 AM

@jeroly - super intrigued & this is now going on my bucket travel list!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 20, 2024, 08:25:30 AM

I spent March 2017 in New Zealand.  I think after using points and such I came in at about $6k.  Can’t wait to go back, but it is a place where I feel one needs to make it a long trip.  The only Great walk I did was the on that included Tongariro.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on March 20, 2024, 10:33:26 AM

Quote from: MaybeBabyMustache on March 20, 2024, 08:16:19 AM

@jeroly - super intrigued & this is now going on my bucket travel list!

@MaybeBabyMustache , it deserves a place on that list!  To do the walks, you have to stay on top of when the hut bookings go on line for the next season (in this case, July 2024 - Jun 2025) by checking at https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-recreation/places-to-go/online-bookings/

- they say they will give two weeks notice.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on March 20, 2024, 02:25:43 PM

Fantastic to hear about NZ adventures. I had several trips there years ago. Hiked the Tongariro Crossing on one and the Routeburn Track on another. Spectacular hikes, or tramps as they call them in NZ. I was skeptical of the huts before going, but after hiking for two hours uphill in the rain on day one of the Routeburn track, walking across the bridge through that breezeway out onto the covered deck of the hut convinced me they’re okay!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 20, 2024, 03:43:35 PM

Quote from: Turtle on March 19, 2024, 09:40:57 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 14, 2024, 12:50:07 PM

My personal 401K is sitting at 1.95M and even though it's silly, I'm wanting to see it hit 2M. Our combined accounts is 3.7M and nonprimary real estate added totals over 4M.
Haven't made any draws to the 401K yet, but I will be to backdoor Roth IRA this year. Is it wrong to not want to fund the back door, because you hate to see the big guy drop in value? The stupid things we think once we have real money.
My last ever day with my company is March 22. I should have been gone May 2023, but managed to only work about 50 percent of the time since then and never missed a full paycheck. I got out at 55. Now I'm a full time hiker and bicyclist. My wife will be a full time basketball fan.

Congratulations!  Are they having a going away party for you at work?

We had the party yesterday and the company provided a BBQ lunch for everyone in the department. I truly love my coworkers and will make every effort to stay in contact with many of them.
No work today or tomorrow. Friday I clean out or trash my stuff and turn in my keys. Thankfully I signed a contract 12 months ago to leave for a bonus. I didn't need the bonus, I needed to force myself away. I'd OMY till death otherwise. I shed a tear yesterday driving home reflecting back on how much love they all showed me at the party.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 20, 2024, 03:46:09 PM

Quote from: jeroly on March 20, 2024, 05:44:39 AM

It was a bit wild for me to watch my individual NW soar past our race's midway mark, if only for a couple of hours last week, as I was traipsing around New Zealand.  I suppose this could forever be my NW's high-water-mark, but if I make it to 70 I'll start getting a boost from SS that might help tip it back over the line even if the markets never get higher than this (i.e. 'The Top is In').

The trip was expensive yet I return to more money than when I left. The 'magic firehose of money' can't go on forever, so it's a good thing I don't usually spend quite like I did on this trip.  A lot of the costs were really hard to avoid - $1k airfare, $500 in hut fees and shuttle bus reservations to do the treks, $500 for my share of car rentals, $200 gas, pricier hotels and AirBnbs due to summer season ($125/night avg. I think).  Probably will wind up costing me around $7k for everything, or around $1,750/week.  That's more than I have budgeted for this year's travel on a weekly basis ($1,500/wk), but I have two cheaper per week trips coming up (Sumatra, then Serbia/Montenegro/Albania) that should get the numbers back in line.

It was fun to never have had to use cash for anything in NZ - I took out $100 before I left and returned with $100 - and virtually everything is tap-to-pay as well. Even all the vendors at the local agricultural fair we happened upon in Wanaka were cashless.

By the way, anybody who does multi-day hikes would be well advised to grab a reservation for one of New Zealand's Great Walks in the 24-25 season when they become available in a few weeks!  They are really fantastic, especially when you get very lucky with the weather as I did!  I did the Routeburn, Kepler, and Milford Tracks (in that order) and loved all three, and did day hikes on the Queen Charlotte Track as well as the Tongariro Alpine Crossing, on top of local walks up Ben Lomond mountain above Queenstown, and up Mount Mounganui in Tauranga.  It was all beautiful, mostly challenging with lots of elevation gain, and a fantastic collective experience as well with the other hikers that you would meet in the huts and along the trail.

This is why I retired. It wasn't stress at work. It's to visit our beautiful world.
Thanks for sharing this with us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 20, 2024, 04:09:48 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 20, 2024, 03:43:35 PM

Quote from: Turtle on March 19, 2024, 09:40:57 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 14, 2024, 12:50:07 PM

My personal 401K is sitting at 1.95M and even though it's silly, I'm wanting to see it hit 2M. Our combined accounts is 3.7M and nonprimary real estate added totals over 4M.
Haven't made any draws to the 401K yet, but I will be to backdoor Roth IRA this year. Is it wrong to not want to fund the back door, because you hate to see the big guy drop in value? The stupid things we think once we have real money.
My last ever day with my company is March 22. I should have been gone May 2023, but managed to only work about 50 percent of the time since then and never missed a full paycheck. I got out at 55. Now I'm a full time hiker and bicyclist. My wife will be a full time basketball fan.

Congratulations!  Are they having a going away party for you at work?

We had the party yesterday and the company provided a BBQ lunch for everyone in the department. I truly love my coworkers and will make every effort to stay in contact with many of them.
No work today or tomorrow. Friday I clean out or trash my stuff and turn in my keys. Thankfully I signed a contract 12 months ago to leave for a bonus. I didn't need the bonus, I needed to force myself away. I'd OMY till death otherwise. I shed a tear yesterday driving home reflecting back on how much love they all showed me at the party.

You'll have the memories to the end of your days.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 20, 2024, 05:46:06 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 20, 2024, 03:43:35 PM

Quote from: Turtle on March 19, 2024, 09:40:57 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 14, 2024, 12:50:07 PM

My personal 401K is sitting at 1.95M and even though it's silly, I'm wanting to see it hit 2M. Our combined accounts is 3.7M and nonprimary real estate added totals over 4M.
Haven't made any draws to the 401K yet, but I will be to backdoor Roth IRA this year. Is it wrong to not want to fund the back door, because you hate to see the big guy drop in value? The stupid things we think once we have real money.
My last ever day with my company is March 22. I should have been gone May 2023, but managed to only work about 50 percent of the time since then and never missed a full paycheck. I got out at 55. Now I'm a full time hiker and bicyclist. My wife will be a full time basketball fan.

Congratulations!  Are they having a going away party for you at work?

We had the party yesterday and the company provided a BBQ lunch for everyone in the department. I truly love my coworkers and will make every effort to stay in contact with many of them.
No work today or tomorrow. Friday I clean out or trash my stuff and turn in my keys. Thankfully I signed a contract 12 months ago to leave for a bonus. I didn't need the bonus, I needed to force myself away. I'd OMY till death otherwise. I shed a tear yesterday driving home reflecting back on how much love they all showed me at the party.

Congratulations.. The company I worked for until 2012, they have a monthly get together and always invite me to come.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 20, 2024, 07:01:32 PM

@MoneyTree  come on over- we don’t punch “much” in these parts! Congratulations on your $2 million mark!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MoneyTree on March 20, 2024, 07:58:33 PM

Quote from: couponvan on March 20, 2024, 07:01:32 PM

@MoneyTree  come on over- we don’t punch “much” in these parts! Congratulations on your $2 million mark!

Thanks [mention]couponvan [/mention]!  Just breached the $2M mark today, and looking forward to continued learning from the folks here!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 20, 2024, 08:07:21 PM

Quote from: MoneyTree on March 20, 2024, 07:58:33 PM

Quote from: couponvan on March 20, 2024, 07:01:32 PM

@MoneyTree  come on over- we don’t punch “much” in these parts! Congratulations on your $2 million mark!

Thanks [mention]couponvan [/mention]!  Just breached the $2M mark today, and looking forward to continued learning from the folks here!

Its’s more like a retirement party every month, but we love to welcome new racers.

@Bateaux what words of wisdom do you have to impart on your last hurrah before signing into the beyond? Congratulations on your retirement and many happy trails in the future!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on March 20, 2024, 09:59:04 PM

Quote from: couponvan on March 20, 2024, 08:07:21 PM

Quote from: MoneyTree on March 20, 2024, 07:58:33 PM

Quote from: couponvan on March 20, 2024, 07:01:32 PM

@MoneyTree  come on over- we don’t punch “much” in these parts! Congratulations on your $2 million mark!

Thanks [mention]couponvan [/mention]!  Just breached the $2M mark today, and looking forward to continued learning from the folks here!

Its’s more like a retirement party every month, but we love to welcome new racers.

@Bateaux what words of wisdom do you have to impart on your last hurrah before signing into the beyond? Congratulations on your retirement and many happy trails in the future!

Honestly I want to thank you guys for all the advice and encouragement. It seems like yesterday that I was crossing into and out of the 2M mark with daily ups and downs. Now looking at Beyond territory and no more work days. You just keep pounding forward, you don't let the daily news or naysayers discourage you.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 20, 2024, 10:38:52 PM

Well a cool $23k was added to our net worth today.. Not too shabby.

If we believe Zillow we are definitely into "beyond" territory.. Although I'm not sure counting the house is allowed.. Don't even talk about pensions..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: UnleashHell on March 21, 2024, 03:57:32 AM

Quote from: Bateaux on March 20, 2024, 09:59:04 PM

Quote from: couponvan on March 20, 2024, 08:07:21 PM

Quote from: MoneyTree on March 20, 2024, 07:58:33 PM

Quote from: couponvan on March 20, 2024, 07:01:32 PM

@MoneyTree  come on over- we don’t punch “much” in these parts! Congratulations on your $2 million mark!

Thanks [mention]couponvan [/mention]!  Just breached the $2M mark today, and looking forward to continued learning from the folks here!

Its’s more like a retirement party every month, but we love to welcome new racers.

@Bateaux what words of wisdom do you have to impart on your last hurrah before signing into the beyond? Congratulations on your retirement and many happy trails in the future!

Honestly I want to thank you guys for all the advice and encouragement. It seems like yesterday that I was crossing into and out of the 2M mark with daily ups and downs. Now looking at Beyond territory and no more work days. You just keep pounding forward, you don't let the daily news or naysayers discourage you.

you finally quit???


woohoo.


I thought I'd never see the day!!

well done

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 21, 2024, 05:36:42 AM

Glad you made it, @Bateaux !

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 21, 2024, 09:26:17 AM

Quote from: SwordGuy on March 21, 2024, 05:36:42 AM

Glad you made it, @Bateaux !

Hard work, community service and frugality can still give the American dream.

Laissez les bons temps rouler

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 21, 2024, 09:32:31 AM

Since this is a race about money, I am probably one of the slackers given how long I have been around.

We updated our net worth and are at $3.25 million now after paying $125K for OOS tuitions last year. That was only at 10% increase over last year, but considering the spending we are doing I am OK with it. Our original goal was either $2.0MM and a paid off house or $2.5MM and a paid off house. I was off work for 4 years on a smoke break, so the race slowed down!

We are also still somewhat helping our oldest out. We should really sell our current home and downsize, but that 2.5% interest rate is so nice.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on March 21, 2024, 10:32:30 AM

Retirement accounts have crossed the 1 mill line -- top is in?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on March 21, 2024, 11:00:12 AM

Quote from: lhamo on March 21, 2024, 10:32:30 AM

Retirement accounts have crossed the 1 mill line -- top is in?

Payday is tomorrow, so markets will hold through then.

Furthermore, there are only a few more paychecks to max out deferred contributions.  MBR contributions are smaller and unmatched. Murphy says the markets will likely hold until contributions are reduced.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SwordGuy on March 21, 2024, 11:10:53 AM

The new market highs this month pushed us past that last ~$3,000 to get over the $4M threshold.

The last of my wife's inheritance came in yesterday.  $160,000 and change, so now we're solidly over.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: LightTripper on March 21, 2024, 11:46:58 AM

Congratulations @Bateaux !!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 21, 2024, 12:34:01 PM

Quote from: lhamo on March 21, 2024, 10:32:30 AM

Retirement accounts have crossed the 1 mill line -- top is in?

Yay! But how much will you borrow for your spendypants house re-model?... :). I have yet to look at the plans BTW.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 21, 2024, 12:36:40 PM

@couponvan I don't think anyone of working age that has $3M+ (and started from nothing) could be called a slacker! At least not with a straight face..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on March 21, 2024, 01:12:07 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 21, 2024, 12:34:01 PM

Quote from: lhamo on March 21, 2024, 10:32:30 AM

Retirement accounts have crossed the 1 mill line -- top is in?

Yay! But how much will you borrow for your spendypants house re-model?... :). I have yet to look at the plans BTW.

Not planning to borrow anything or withdraw from retirement -- I have around 400k in my brokerage/savings and that is where the remodel money and my living expenses for the next 4 years are coming from. I MIGHT also still earn a bit from a PT or side gig, or start the business I have been mulling over, in order to pad things a little bit more and maybe speed up the kitchen remodel. 

I should send you the revised plans...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on March 21, 2024, 01:35:57 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 21, 2024, 12:36:40 PM

@couponvan I don't think anyone of working age that has $3M+ (and started from nothing) could be called a slacker! At least not with a straight face..:)

I did get an inheritance at 18, but that was for college and was down to $0 and minus by the time DH finished law school. So I started ahead of zero, went below zero, and we came out on the other side. Paying for three kids in OOS college I figure is about $.5 million of their inheritances invested in them.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 21, 2024, 02:39:23 PM

Quote from: lhamo on March 21, 2024, 01:12:07 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 21, 2024, 12:34:01 PM

Quote from: lhamo on March 21, 2024, 10:32:30 AM

Retirement accounts have crossed the 1 mill line -- top is in?

Yay! But how much will you borrow for your spendypants house re-model?... :). I have yet to look at the plans BTW.

Not planning to borrow anything or withdraw from retirement -- I have around 400k in my brokerage/savings and that is where the remodel money and my living expenses for the next 4 years are coming from. I MIGHT also still earn a bit from a PT or side gig, or start the business I have been mulling over, in order to pad things a little bit more and maybe speed up the kitchen remodel. 

I should send you the revised plans...

Haha.. I was very confident you wouldn't be borrowing anything for the remodel.

Sadly I do have a friend who never quite got around to having me look at her finances, even though she has been saying she wants me to for roughly 10 years now...

A while back she showed me all these plans to re-model her house she had drawn up and it was going to cost her $200,000.. For the remodel. I then asked her how much she thought the work would increase the value of her house by?.. Deer in the headlights look!

The real answer is maybe by $25 to 50k.. Its still a little house and is not adding bedrooms or much in the way of livable space.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: arcturus on March 21, 2024, 03:31:04 PM

Congratulations @Bateaux !   I am excited to hear your updates in your new adventure!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 21, 2024, 05:56:22 PM

Congratulations @Bateaux

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: SEAK on March 21, 2024, 07:48:08 PM

Very excited to finally join this thread.

50yo, wife 47, 16 and 14yo kiddos. Investments are sitting just over $2M not including our state pensions (currently $70k/yr and increasing every year I decide to continue working) or the kiddos 529s.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 21, 2024, 08:18:11 PM

Welcome, & congratulations @SEAK !

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on March 21, 2024, 08:25:40 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 20, 2024, 10:38:52 PM

Well a cool $23k was added to our net worth today.. Not too shabby.

another $10k+ day bringing YTD over my annual base salary…not too shabby at all coming to the end of Q1.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on March 22, 2024, 09:16:19 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on March 21, 2024, 08:25:40 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 20, 2024, 10:38:52 PM

Well a cool $23k was added to our net worth today.. Not too shabby.

another $10k+ day bringing YTD over my annual base salary…not too shabby at all coming to the end of Q1.

Yeah, about the same here. I rebalanced/moved another pile of VTSAX to VBTLX yesterday in my rollover IRA as I work towards getting us to around 75/25 equity/bonds. This move landed us at 81/19. Current plan is let things ride and check back in in Jun as we hit the halfway point.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on March 22, 2024, 01:25:43 PM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on March 21, 2024, 08:25:40 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 20, 2024, 10:38:52 PM

Well a cool $23k was added to our net worth today.. Not too shabby.

another $10k+ day bringing YTD over my annual base salary…not too shabby at all coming to the end of Q1.

I was noticing the exact same phenomenon here with regards to YTD comparison.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 23, 2024, 10:07:46 AM

Our tax appointment is today. As we finalized our numbers last night, we did a quick NW tally. OMG, if we include real estate, we are so far into "...and Beyond" territory we're gobsmacked. How the hell did that happen? FWIW, we still have three fresh mortgages that we have no intention of paying off early.

After getting killed with a huge tax bill last year, it looks like we will owe nothing this year, and probably get all that was withheld from DH's pension checks back. Squee!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 23, 2024, 11:04:07 AM

Very nice @Dicey  and you have pensions as well! How on Earth will you spend it all? I assume Roth conversions will "kill you" too? Good problems to have..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 23, 2024, 11:26:08 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 23, 2024, 11:04:07 AM

Very nice @Dicey  and you have pensions as well! How on Earth will you spend it all? I assume Roth conversions will "kill you" too? Good problems to have..:)

Lol, we looked at each other and said exactly that last night. Oh well, owing shitloads of taxes is possibly the best MPP ever, right Frank?

BTW, we don't do Roth Conversions, but maybe now, while we're "only" living on the pension income (oops, and rental income), we should consider it. Any advice is appreciated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 23, 2024, 11:55:16 AM

Quote from: Dicey on March 23, 2024, 11:26:08 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 23, 2024, 11:04:07 AM

Very nice @Dicey  and you have pensions as well! How on Earth will you spend it all? I assume Roth conversions will "kill you" too? Good problems to have..:)

Lol, we looked at each other and said exactly that last night. Oh well, owing shitloads of taxes is possibly the best MPP ever, right Frank?

BTW, we don't do Roth Conversions, but maybe now, while we're "only" living on the pension income (oops, and rental income), we should consider it. Any advice is appreciated.

Well this is a problem that has only recently come into focus for me, especially as Oregon income taxes are similarly awful as Kalifornia!

Roth conversions are a way to reduce/avoid the massive income spike from RMD's at 73 or (75 if you're "young" like me).

To get an idea, estimate your pretax savings at RMD age which is 12 years away for me. (I assume an 8% growth rate, so today's PREtax total value *1.08^12).

Then divide that by 24.6 (from the IRS table) and that will be the first year's increase to your income... In my case that number alone is in "shit-ton" territory!

Why is this bad?.. Fed tax, state income taxes and IRMAA penalties.. in other words your Part B cost will double and probably more than that!

As to advice.. My tiny brain tells me to not take pensions or SS for as long as possible and ROTH convert as much as I can stand (probably up to the IRMAA limit.. i.e $206k) each year until age 70. Then take SS, then delay pensions as long as possible.

There is also the prospect that at some point our Fed taxes are going to HAVE to rise or we literally won't even be able to pay the interest on the National debt. So Roth converting at lower income tax rates today (with a smaller balance) is better than converting a larger balance later at higher tax rates.

All this "feels" awful, so I have to keep reminding myself this is a GOOD thing. I mean If we die with a huge stash, what difference does it make how much we spent in taxes? As long as we maximised enjoyment/fulfillment along the way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on March 23, 2024, 12:44:44 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 23, 2024, 10:07:46 AM

Our tax appointment is today. As we finalized our numbers last night, we did a quick NW tally. OMG, if we include real estate, we are so far into "...and Beyond" territory we're gobsmacked. How the hell did that happen? FWIW, we still have three fresh mortgages that we have no intention of paying off early.

After getting killed with a huge tax bill last year, it looks like we will owe nothing this year, and probably get all that was withheld from DH's pension checks back. Squee!

Markets have been on a tear since early November.  Kind of kicking myself for cashing in some LTCG back then, but it kept the IBL quiet and I still have a decent amount riding the market waves, so I'm resigned to it.

Oh, and low inventory surprisingly means real estate prices are still going up in spite of the high mortgage rates.  We probably could have gotten 1.5 mill for our house if we had waited to sell now, but then I wouldn't have gotten my relatively cheap fixer (teardowns on worse lots are going for 600-800k in my zip right now)....

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 23, 2024, 01:40:47 PM

Yes @lhamo that IBL/M is real! Despite what my numbers say, the memory of my Parents faces when they realised they might not make it to the end of the month still scares me to this day!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: blueberrybushes on March 23, 2024, 01:42:09 PM

Exflyboy,

Definitely delay SS as long as possible since you other sources to cover living expenses. 

Sometimes pensions, unlike SS, max out at 62 or 65, so waiting after their mx out year is leaving money on the table.

If you do Roth conversions, will you have to sell other funds to cover living expenses?  And, pay tax on the LTCG?  Maybe better to take IRA distributions to cover living expenses and let the other funds stay in the market?

Obviously, have to run the numbers to see which is better.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on March 23, 2024, 01:58:28 PM

Quote

Roth conversions are a way to reduce/avoid the massive income spike from RMD's at 73 or (75 if you're "young" like me).

To get an idea, estimate your pretax savings at RMD age which is 12 years away for me. (I assume an 8% growth rate, so today's PREtax total value *1.08^12).

Then divide that by 24.6 (from the IRS table) and that will be the first year's increase to your income... In my case that number alone is in "shit-ton" territory![\quote]

Holy smokes!  Just did this calculation…need to start evacuating this account; always planned the back door ladder…once I figured out what I wanted to do (downshift wise) when I grew up.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: TempusFugit on March 23, 2024, 02:01:09 PM

I think the question of when to take SS or pension income is more nuanced than just trying to maximize what you will get in your lifetime from those sources.  You have to consider the time value of the money you will otherwise be spending from your portfolio.  If the markets perform well, you might be much better off to take SS or pension income so that you can leave more of your money invested.  It's a gamble like most other things in that you won't know the right decision until you have the benefit of hindsight.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 23, 2024, 02:23:00 PM

Quote from: blueberrybushes on March 23, 2024, 01:42:09 PM

Exflyboy,

Definitely delay SS as long as possible since you other sources to cover living expenses. 

Sometimes pensions, unlike SS, max out at 62 or 65, so waiting after their mx out year is leaving money on the table.

If you do Roth conversions, will you have to sell other funds to cover living expenses?  And, pay tax on the LTCG?  Maybe better to take IRA distributions to cover living expenses and let the other funds stay in the market?

Obviously, have to run the numbers to see which is better.

Yeah I got projections from each of our pensions out to 75 (me) and 71 (DW) and they were both still growing at those ages. I do know that they level off at some point but its clear this point is beyond effective RMD age. Of course at some point one of us will die and then the pension+SS payouts will plummet so if someone could tell me how long each of us will live that would be most helpful..:)

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see what you live on makes much difference?.. Lets say you want $206k income, as soon as you do the conversion (about $186k as we get about $20k in after tax dividends/interest) then you have 186k (minus taxes) added to your Roth account so you can use that to live on. I certainly wouldn't want to sell any other investments because that will trigger an even higher income and bump us into the IRMAA penalty territory.

Our other "problem" is DW is 3.5 years younger than me. So if I started Roth conversions at 65 (medicare age) we would lose DW's ACA subsidy.. Roughly $1000/month!.. Free money so not doing that! Which means I will have to wait till both of us are on Medicare.. i.e 68 for me which leaves only 7 years till RMD age.

At $186K/year *7 = $1.3M. which I estimate to be roughly half of the total pretax sum when I start at 68.

Clearly I need another airplane!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 23, 2024, 02:29:45 PM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on March 23, 2024, 01:58:28 PM

Quote

Roth conversions are a way to reduce/avoid the massive income spike from RMD's at 73 or (75 if you're "young" like me).

To get an idea, estimate your pretax savings at RMD age which is 12 years away for me. (I assume an 8% growth rate, so today's PREtax total value *1.08^12).

Then divide that by 24.6 (from the IRS table) and that will be the first year's increase to your income... In my case that number alone is in "shit-ton" territory![\quote]

Holy smokes!  Just did this calculation…need to start evacuating this account; always planned the back door ladder…once I figured out what I wanted to do (downshift wise) when I grew up.

At Medicare age or better.. YES!

Prior to that if you like scamming your ACA subsidies, then doing Roth conversions will reduce or eliminate the subsidy. Currently our subsidy is $1900/month (plus I get to contribute the HSA). So unless the political winds shift in Washington then I'm leaving the Pretax accounts alone.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 23, 2024, 02:48:42 PM

Quote from: TempusFugit on March 23, 2024, 02:01:09 PM

I think the question of when to take SS or pension income is more nuanced than just trying to maximize what you will get in your lifetime from those sources.  You have to consider the time value of the money you will otherwise be spending from your portfolio.  If the markets perform well, you might be much better off to take SS or pension income so that you can leave more of your money invested.  It's a gamble like most other things in that you won't know the right decision until you have the benefit of hindsight.

Absolutely. However I would suggest that for a lot of people in the group (i.e big stash/low expenditures) the question almost comes down to "How much do you want to die with?"

I would argue that those around "Beyond territory" with say 30 years to live could have 40 million to their name by the time they kick the bucket (assuming 8% and living off pensions).

In this case as Freddie Mercury once sang "Nothing really matters".. Especially considering he died at 44 with over $100m to his name.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 23, 2024, 04:05:49 PM

Quote from: TempusFugit on March 23, 2024, 02:01:09 PM

I think the question of when to take SS or pension income is more nuanced than just trying to maximize what you will get in your lifetime from those sources.  You have to consider the time value of the money you will otherwise be spending from your portfolio.  If the markets perform well, you might be much better off to take SS or pension income so that you can leave more of your money invested.  It's a gamble like most other things in that you won't know the right decision until you have the benefit of hindsight.

There's the tax thing to consider too.  If you wait you get about 7-8 percent a year bump.  You may figure that if you take the money now you can invest that and make an equivalent yield.  However, taxes will reduce that yield somewhat.  Besides, some years are good and some years are bad.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on March 24, 2024, 03:44:03 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 23, 2024, 02:23:00 PM

Quote from: blueberrybushes on March 23, 2024, 01:42:09 PM

Exflyboy,

Definitely delay SS as long as possible since you other sources to cover living expenses. 

Sometimes pensions, unlike SS, max out at 62 or 65, so waiting after their mx out year is leaving money on the table.

If you do Roth conversions, will you have to sell other funds to cover living expenses?  And, pay tax on the LTCG?  Maybe better to take IRA distributions to cover living expenses and let the other funds stay in the market?

Obviously, have to run the numbers to see which is better.

Yeah I got projections from each of our pensions out to 75 (me) and 71 (DW) and they were both still growing at those ages. I do know that they level off at some point but its clear this point is beyond effective RMD age. Of course at some point one of us will die and then the pension+SS payouts will plummet so if someone could tell me how long each of us will live that would be most helpful..:)

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see what you live on makes much difference?.. Lets say you want $206k income, as soon as you do the conversion (about $186k as we get about $20k in after tax dividends/interest) then you have 186k (minus taxes) added to your Roth account so you can use that to live on. I certainly wouldn't want to sell any other investments because that will trigger an even higher income and bump us into the IRMAA penalty territory.

Our other "problem" is DW is 3.5 years younger than me. So if I started Roth conversions at 65 (medicare age) we would lose DW's ACA subsidy.. Roughly $1000/month!.. Free money so not doing that! Which means I will have to wait till both of us are on Medicare.. i.e 68 for me which leaves only 7 years till RMD age.

At $186K/year *7 = $1.3M. which I estimate to be roughly half of the total pretax sum when I start at 68.

Clearly I need another airplane!

My wife and I are both entitled to pensions at age 65 - we both started working in the 1990s when companies still had such plans. The lumpsum amounts have really grown a lot but neither of us is confident about the long-term stability of these pension plans. So rather than getting the pensions in the form of annuities, we will be taking lumpsums and immediately rolling them into our IRAs. So that will necessitate really aggressive Roth conversions since we already have substantial amounts in our tax deferred accounts.

In fact, once we start Roth conversions, we will have to blow past both the ACA and the IRMAA limits. So we will be paying a lot for health insurance in the years to come. A good problem to have 😀

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 24, 2024, 09:47:20 AM

Lol, we're in a similar position re: Healthcare. For the first time in our married life, our medical expenses far exceeded 7.5% of our AGI. As far as DH's pension, delaying it was not an option, and the lump-sum offer was pitiful. Happily between the pension and rental income, we don't need SS, so we're going to let it ride until we hit 70. Now, to start researching Roth conversions...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 24, 2024, 12:29:20 PM

 Its kinda fun to be working on problems that 90% of the population could not even fathom having! Looking back 10 years I was wondering if we would have enough to survive in retirement. Now I wonder how much charitable giving I can do direct from my pretax accounts (at 70.5) to avoid giving it to the fed and state governments!

And to think a lot of people coming up on retirement don't even realise that Medicare is NOT free!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on March 24, 2024, 01:53:08 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 24, 2024, 12:29:20 PM

Its kinda fun to be working on problems that 90% of the population could not even fathom having! Looking back 10 years I was wondering if we would have enough to survive in retirement. Now I wonder how much charitable giving I can do direct from my pretax accounts (at 70.5) to avoid giving it to the fed and state governments!

And to think a lot of people coming up on retirement don't even realise that Medicare is NOT free!

You are right.  We've lived in the right time.  You are a mechanical engineer.  Just today, I read some news that Stellantis (Chrysler) is laying off about 400 engineers near Detroit and offshoring their jobs to India and other places.  Not being able to work sure gives problems to folk's retirement plans.  However, you don't need to worry so much about income tax when your income has been taken away.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on March 24, 2024, 07:17:50 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 24, 2024, 09:47:20 AM

Now, to start researching Roth conversions...

For those interested in a discussion about Roth conversions

 https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/trad-to-roth-conversion-more-or-less/ (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/trad-to-roth-conversion-more-or-less/)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on March 25, 2024, 09:59:59 AM

Quote from: pecunia on March 24, 2024, 01:53:08 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 24, 2024, 12:29:20 PM

Its kinda fun to be working on problems that 90% of the population could not even fathom having! Looking back 10 years I was wondering if we would have enough to survive in retirement. Now I wonder how much charitable giving I can do direct from my pretax accounts (at 70.5) to avoid giving it to the fed and state governments!

And to think a lot of people coming up on retirement don't even realise that Medicare is NOT free!

You are right.  We've lived in the right time.  You are a mechanical engineer.  Just today, I read some news that Stellantis (Chrysler) is laying off about 400 engineers near Detroit and offshoring their jobs to India and other places.  Not being able to work sure gives problems to folk's retirement plans.  However, you don't need to worry so much about income tax when your income has been taken away.

My large tech company has been doing the "India shuffle"...for a long time.  And before that is was the "China shuffle".   It is picking up again now post-pandemic.  A TON of layoffs this year so far.  Thank god I'm very near the end of my 30+ year career as I've survived almost yearly layoffs since I started in 1992! 

As for the social security discussion, I wish we could delay until 70 ( or whatever ).  However, I know far too many coworkers and acquaintances that have passed away without collecting a dime.  My spouse also has a chronic health condition, and I just had a health scare that I thankfully am just about recovered from.  Also add to the fact that SS benefits may very well be cut a few years after we retire.  Because of these things, we want to collect as early as possible, but have not made any definitive decisions.  I certainly do get the math as far as ACA subsidies go, etc... 

It will be interesting to see how "the math" works out for us as we approach 62.  However, right now I am concentrating on holding out at work until I reach 55 ( next year ), so the "rule of 55" applies to my 401k.  We likely won't use the "rule of 55", but it is nice to have options.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on March 25, 2024, 10:43:21 AM

Also tech here.  Was hit by layoffs in 2013, which ultimately turned out to be a good thing since they were severely underpaying me.  I make 3 times that now, and if I were hit with a layoff again I would just retire.

I've done a bit of Roth converting in the past, and my current 401k contributions are going in as Roth.  Even so, the bulk of the 401k is traditional for various reasons, including former employers who didn't have Roth as an option.  The way the market is going, it is growing faster than I can afford to convert it.  I don't expect to have much headroom to do a lot of converting while on ACA for 5-6 years, but maybe more after I hit 65.  Depending on how math works out, I may do a bit more converting between 65-75, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

With 5 kids getting equal shares, I'm not particularly worried that they will have crazy high tax issues from it either, once it's split and stretched out over time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: TempusFugit on March 25, 2024, 12:02:14 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 25, 2024, 09:59:59 AM

…the "rule of 55" applies to my 401k.  We likely won't use the "rule of 55", but it is nice to have options.

Yeah, the reason I want to have that option is because my bond allocation is mostly in my 401k and I want to have the ability to use those funds if the market is down rather than sell equities from my post-tax portfolio. 

I heard an interesting take on bond allocations recently.  One strategy to determine how much you should keep in bonds is to subtract from your yearly spend requirement any other income (pension, SS) but also dividend income from your equities (so 1.6% of your equity holdings if VTSAX) and then multiple that by some number of years that you want to be able to cover, say 5 years of down market.  That’s a good target for bond holdings, which is a dollar amount not a percentage.  The goal being to give you enough cushion that you can spend from the bonds (and dividends) and not sell any stock holdings at the down market prices. 

These seems reasonable to me, and as it happens it pretty much aligns with what I have in bonds but most of those are in my 401k, and the first 5 years of my (planned) retirement is also before my pension starts and before I would reach normal retirement age to access those funds without penalty.   If I hold on until 2025, that obstacle is removed by the Rule of 55. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 25, 2024, 01:36:53 PM

Quote from: TempusFugit on March 25, 2024, 12:02:14 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 25, 2024, 09:59:59 AM

…the "rule of 55" applies to my 401k.  We likely won't use the "rule of 55", but it is nice to have options.

Yeah, the reason I want to have that option is because my bond allocation is mostly in my 401k and I want to have the ability to use those funds if the market is down rather than sell equities from my post-tax portfolio.

It doesn't matter! So the stock market is down.. so you sell some of the stocks in your Post tax stash and pump those $$ into your checking account.

Then on the same day you simply sell the same $$ value of bonds and buy Stocks all inside your pretax stash.

The effect is you sold some bonds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on March 25, 2024, 02:13:06 PM

Quote from: TempusFugit on March 25, 2024, 12:02:14 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 25, 2024, 09:59:59 AM

…the "rule of 55" applies to my 401k.  We likely won't use the "rule of 55", but it is nice to have options.

Yeah, the reason I want to have that option is because my bond allocation is mostly in my 401k and I want to have the ability to use those funds if the market is down rather than sell equities from my post-tax portfolio. 

You can simply sell the down equities in your post-tax account, then buy equites in your tax-advantaged account using your bond allocation. You end up in the same place. It's as if you directly sold bonds to spend.

Small nuances around taxes of course, but you might even be able to harvest losses depending on the situation.


yeah, what he said....I really thought I read to the bottom...

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 25, 2024, 01:36:53 PM

It doesn't matter! So the stock market is down.. so you sell some of the stocks in your Post tax stash and pump those $$ into your checking account.

Then on the same day you simply sell the same $$ value of bonds and buy Stocks all inside your pretax stash.

The effect is you sold some bonds.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 25, 2024, 02:23:51 PM

Quote from: pecunia on March 23, 2024, 04:05:49 PM

Quote from: TempusFugit on March 23, 2024, 02:01:09 PM

I think the question of when to take SS or pension income is more nuanced than just trying to maximize what you will get in your lifetime from those sources.  You have to consider the time value of the money you will otherwise be spending from your portfolio.  If the markets perform well, you might be much better off to take SS or pension income so that you can leave more of your money invested.  It's a gamble like most other things in that you won't know the right decision until you have the benefit of hindsight.

There's the tax thing to consider too.  If you wait you get about 7-8 percent a year bump.  You may figure that if you take the money now you can invest that and make an equivalent yield.  However, taxes will reduce that yield somewhat.  Besides, some years are good and some years are bad.

GCC had a post about this where they will take SS at 62 with the logic being (1) likely similar or greater returns on assets that would otherwise get spent and (2) SS ends when you die where as the investments can be passed on to heirs (regardless of growth).

Before I read the post I always assumed I delay as long as possible, we will see.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: TempusFugit on March 25, 2024, 05:14:11 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 25, 2024, 01:36:53 PM

Quote from: TempusFugit on March 25, 2024, 12:02:14 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 25, 2024, 09:59:59 AM

…the "rule of 55" applies to my 401k.  We likely won't use the "rule of 55", but it is nice to have options.

Yeah, the reason I want to have that option is because my bond allocation is mostly in my 401k and I want to have the ability to use those funds if the market is down rather than sell equities from my post-tax portfolio.

It doesn't matter! So the stock market is down.. so you sell some of the stocks in your Post tax stash and pump those $$ into your checking account.

Then on the same day you simply sell the same $$ value of bonds and buy Stocks all inside your pretax stash.

The effect is you sold some bonds.

I hadn’t thought of it that way. Good point.   

Updated —> Ok having thought about it for a little bit longer, something was still not sitting quite right on this. Your point is entirely correct, however,  part of my concern is that the accessible part of my portfolio - the post tax stuff -  is heavily allocated in equities.  What that could mean in the scenario of a multi-year bear market is that I could deplete those funds, because the dollar value of the equities keeps dropping even as I am selling to support my spending.  While my portfolio as a whole might be weathering things ok due to being able to exchange bonds for stocks inside my 401k, my ‘spendable’ funds might be running out. 

I have, in dollar terms, enough in my post tax accounts to fund my first 5 years of retirement assuming no particularly bad market conditions.  But… you know.  Bad markets happen to good people. 

Is this a show-stopper?  No.  I am aware that I could use the equal periodic  payments thingamabob to have access to 401k funds if I needed it.   I’m just saying that if I’m covered by the Rule of 55, I don’t have to think about it. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 25, 2024, 05:34:40 PM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on March 24, 2024, 07:17:50 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 24, 2024, 09:47:20 AM

Now, to start researching Roth conversions...

For those interested in a discussion about Roth conversions

 https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/trad-to-roth-conversion-more-or-less/ (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/trad-to-roth-conversion-more-or-less/)

OMG, a thread started by Boarder42! I miss him! Thanks for this link, @Simpli-Fi, I'll start digging into it. I'm pretty sure at the time that thread began, our CPA told us it didn't make sense. Since then, DH has retired, we're now living on a "fixed income" (lol), and we've inherited an IRA, which is a whole other unexpected wrinkle. Time to head down that rabbit hole.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 25, 2024, 07:18:57 PM

@TempusFugit Remember the rule of 55 is a legit way to get a hold of your 401k funds (assuming you retire from that job). You can also roll older 401ks into your current 401k too.. Thus get access to all of your 401k money.

The potential downside is you 401k plan can impose more restrictive distribution rules than the IRS allows. For example in my last 401k, the age 55 rule meant I would have had to withdraw ALL of my 401k amount in a single distribution, which would have had a huge tax consequence.

Because I am now an old fart its no longer relevant..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 25, 2024, 07:21:44 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 25, 2024, 05:34:40 PM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on March 24, 2024, 07:17:50 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 24, 2024, 09:47:20 AM

Now, to start researching Roth conversions...

For those interested in a discussion about Roth conversions

 https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/trad-to-roth-conversion-more-or-less/ (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/trad-to-roth-conversion-more-or-less/)

OMG, a thread started by Boarder42! I miss him! Thanks for this link, @Simpli-Fi, I'll start digging into it. I'm pretty sure at the time that thread began, our CPA told us it didn't make sense. Since then, DH has retired, we're now living on a "fixed income" (lol), and we've inherited an IRA, which is a whole other unexpected wrinkle. Time to head down that rabbit hole.

Funny how "fixed income" has come to mean.. "poor senior".

I mean there is fixed income and then there is "fixed Dicey income"..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Lake on March 25, 2024, 08:05:20 PM

@farmecologist congratulations on dodging so many bullets and getting close to 55.  I was going to try and use the rule of 55 as well but fortunately got laid off at 53. Using a 72t ended up working just fine for me.  Like @Exflyboy mentioned rule of 55 can have some wonky rules depending on your plan. A 72t obviously is a bit inflexible but I just set it up to take the max which gives me $20,000 more/year than my spending and started it when I turned 55.  I just Roth convert the extra to help reduce RMD’s later. I have retiree medical though so I don’t have to manage income to keep those costs low. If you don’t make it until 55 you’ll be fine. Especially if they give you a nice fat severance:). Since your kids are about to be off the payroll and doing so well it’s a great time to retire!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: weebs on March 26, 2024, 06:02:08 AM

Quote from: Lake on March 25, 2024, 08:05:20 PM

I was going to try and use the rule of 55 as well but fortunately got laid off at 53. Using a 72t ended up working just fine for me.

Good to hear it's working out.  I'll probably go that route if I stick with my plan and retire next year at 52.  The selection of funds in my current employers retirement plan is lackluster, so I'm probably going to roll the money into an IRA with an allocation that mirrors my brokerage account.  The 72t distributions will get reinvested in my brokerage account, which will be used to replenish the cash buffer I use to fund my various adventures.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on March 26, 2024, 07:26:16 AM

Quote from: Lake on March 25, 2024, 08:05:20 PM

@farmecologist congratulations on dodging so many bullets and getting close to 55.  I was going to try and use the rule of 55 as well but fortunately got laid off at 53. Using a 72t ended up working just fine for me.  Like @Exflyboy mentioned rule of 55 can have some wonky rules depending on your plan. A 72t obviously is a bit inflexible but I just set it up to take the max which gives me $20,000 more/year than my spending and started it when I turned 55.  I just Roth convert the extra to help reduce RMD’s later. I have retiree medical though so I don’t have to manage income to keep those costs low. If you don’t make it until 55 you’ll be fine. Especially if they give you a nice fat severance:). Since your kids are about to be off the payroll and doing so well it’s a great time to retire!

Haha thanks!  Many bullets have been dodged, and I'm only 54...so wo knows if I will make it to 55.  Holding out until 55 for the "rule of 55" to take effect is a goal to help preserve what little motivation I have left for this job...and it ain't much right now!  The rule also takes effect the year you turn 55, not on your actual birthday, so I only need to hold out until Jan 1st, 2025!   BTW - the 72t option is definitely in the playbook as well.

Kids are not quite off payroll yet.  I suspect they will need some help here and there...but having them off the college payroll is a huge step!

And on Social security debate, I am firmly in the camp of "take it early"..IF the math works out for ACA subsidies and such.  However, I still don't feel great about waiting on SS due to the mortality issue ( the "rich, broke or dead" calculator is a good eye opener on that), a likely cut in benefits ( i.e. - collect early before the cut ), etc... I have went over crossover points and all that, and I just don't see the point in taking the gamble waiting.  Nearly everyone and their mother seems to advocate for waiting, including many "gurus" over at Bogleheads and such.  However, I noticed the vast majority over there are already "old farts" who have waited.  We never hear from those that passed early before collecting a dime to prove their point. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Turtle on March 26, 2024, 07:36:09 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 25, 2024, 07:18:57 PM

@TempusFugit Remember the rule of 55 is a legit way to get a hold of your 401k funds (assuming you retire from that job). You can also roll older 401ks into your current 401k too.. Thus get access to all of your 401k money.

The potential downside is you 401k plan can impose more restrictive distribution rules than the IRS allows. For example in my last 401k, the age 55 rule meant I would have had to withdraw ALL of my 401k amount in a single distribution, which would have had a huge tax consequence.

Because I am now an old fart its no longer relevant..:)

My company's 401k plan is like this.  Whether leaving or retiring from the company, they force you to roll it out to IRA.  So if you're 55+, you can do a single distribution under Rule of 55, but because your money isn't still in the 401k afterwards, it can only be the once.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 26, 2024, 09:03:58 AM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 25, 2024, 07:21:44 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 25, 2024, 05:34:40 PM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on March 24, 2024, 07:17:50 PM

Quote from: Dicey on March 24, 2024, 09:47:20 AM

Now, to start researching Roth conversions...

For those interested in a discussion about Roth conversions

 https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/trad-to-roth-conversion-more-or-less/ (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/trad-to-roth-conversion-more-or-less/)

OMG, a thread started by Boarder42! I miss him! Thanks for this link, @Simpli-Fi, I'll start digging into it. I'm pretty sure at the time that thread began, our CPA told us it didn't make sense. Since then, DH has retired, we're now living on a "fixed income" (lol), and we've inherited an IRA, which is a whole other unexpected wrinkle. Time to head down that rabbit hole.

Funny how "fixed income" has come to mean.. "poor senior".

I mean there is fixed income and then there is "fixed Dicey income"..:)

Exactly.

Actual convo at our house:
Dicey: Do we have any money?
Mr. Dicey: No, we're broke.
Dicey: That's okay, I have a rich husband.
Mr. Dicey: Good thing I have a rich wife.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: secondcor521 on March 26, 2024, 10:23:49 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 26, 2024, 07:26:16 AM

And on Social security debate, I am firmly in the camp of "take it early"..IF the math works out for ACA subsidies and such.  However, I still don't feel great about waiting on SS due to the mortality issue ( the "rich, broke or dead" calculator is a good eye opener on that), a likely cut in benefits ( i.e. - collect early before the cut ), etc... I have went over crossover points and all that, and I just don't see the point in taking the gamble waiting.  Nearly everyone and their mother seems to advocate for waiting, including many "gurus" over at Bogleheads and such.  However, I noticed the vast majority over there are already "old farts" who have waited.  We never hear from those that passed early before collecting a dime to prove their point.

It's a complicated topic for sure.

If you're going to look at take it early vs late in the context of die early or die late, it would seem reasonable to look at all four combinations and the risk/reward of each.  As an anecdote, my father took it early because he thought he would die early like his male ancestors.  He is now 88 and in retrospect he would have been further ahead had he waited.

Another factor is how much you "need" SS for your plan to work.  Although my Dad's SS filing decision turned out to be suboptimal, he had other assets and income streams that resulted in his finances working out for him.  There are many folks, myself included, who look at taking SS early as a possible antidote to SORR in the SS claiming age range.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on March 26, 2024, 10:32:36 AM

@Dicey Haha, right? This is why I let DW pay for dinner when we go out.. It feels like I am a "kept man"..:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on March 26, 2024, 04:16:12 PM

Quote from: Exflyboy on March 26, 2024, 10:32:36 AM

@Dicey Haha, right? This is why I let DW pay for dinner when we go out.. It feels like I am a "kept man"..:)

Ha! I pay, too. I want the miles on my card. OTOH, we rarely go out...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on March 26, 2024, 04:37:37 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 26, 2024, 10:23:49 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 26, 2024, 07:26:16 AM

And on Social security debate, I am firmly in the camp of "take it early"..IF the math works out for ACA subsidies and such.  However, I still don't feel great about waiting on SS due to the mortality issue ( the "rich, broke or dead" calculator is a good eye opener on that), a likely cut in benefits ( i.e. - collect early before the cut ), etc... I have went over crossover points and all that, and I just don't see the point in taking the gamble waiting.  Nearly everyone and their mother seems to advocate for waiting, including many "gurus" over at Bogleheads and such.  However, I noticed the vast majority over there are already "old farts" who have waited.  We never hear from those that passed early before collecting a dime to prove their point.

It's a complicated topic for sure.

If you're going to look at take it early vs late in the context of die early or die late, it would seem reasonable to look at all four combinations and the risk/reward of each.  As an anecdote, my father took it early because he thought he would die early like his male ancestors.  He is now 88 and in retrospect he would have been further ahead had he waited.

Another factor is how much you "need" SS for your plan to work.  Although my Dad's SS filing decision turned out to be suboptimal, he had other assets and income streams that resulted in his finances working out for him.  There are many folks, myself included, who look at taking SS early as a possible antidote to SORR in the SS claiming age range.

It definitely is complicated.  I start with just assuming its a wash, that someone smarter than me has figured out how to make it a wash no matter what age I start at.  Then, if I feel my health is poor at that point maybe I'll factor that in.  If the stock market tanks maybe I'll consider taking earlier to let that recover.  Maybe I'll just look at taking it at 70 as a kind of longevity insurance.  In the end I think its likely close enough to a wash to not fret over it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on March 27, 2024, 12:28:50 PM

Quote from: Much Fishing to Do on March 26, 2024, 04:37:37 PM

Quote from: secondcor521 on March 26, 2024, 10:23:49 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on March 26, 2024, 07:26:16 AM

And on Social security debate, I am firmly in the camp of "take it early"..IF the math works out for ACA subsidies and such.  However, I still don't feel great about waiting on SS due to the mortality issue ( the "rich, broke or dead" calculator is a good eye opener on that), a likely cut in benefits ( i.e. - collect early before the cut ), etc... I have went over crossover points and all that, and I just don't see the point in taking the gamble waiting.  Nearly everyone and their mother seems to advocate for waiting, including many "gurus" over at Bogleheads and such.  However, I noticed the vast majority over there are already "old farts" who have waited.  We never hear from those that passed early before collecting a dime to prove their point.

It's a complicated topic for sure.

If you're going to look at take it early vs late in the context of die early or die late, it would seem reasonable to look at all four combinations and the risk/reward of each.  As an anecdote, my father took it early because he thought he would die early like his male ancestors.  He is now 88 and in retrospect he would have been further ahead had he waited.

Another factor is how much you "need" SS for your plan to work.  Although my Dad's SS filing decision turned out to be suboptimal, he had other assets and income streams that resulted in his finances working out for him.  There are many folks, myself included, who look at taking SS early as a possible antidote to SORR in the SS claiming age range.

It definitely is complicated.  I start with just assuming its a wash, that someone smarter than me has figured out how to make it a wash no matter what age I start at.  Then, if I feel my health is poor at that point maybe I'll factor that in.  If the stock market tanks maybe I'll consider taking earlier to let that recover.  Maybe I'll just look at taking it at 70 as a kind of longevity insurance.  In the end I think its likely close enough to a wash to not fret over it.

Yeah..doing the math on crossover points, etc...it really is close to a wash.  However, the not-so-small issue of passing away before collecting a dime really is the discussion people tend to avoid...human nature, I guess.  Like I said, the "rich, broke, or dead" calendar has been an eye opener for many.  Everyone has to make the decision on the gamble to delay.  Personally, I'm not willing to take that gamble, and my spouse already has a chronic health issue...so the decision is an easy one for us.

But enough about social security...that horse has been beaten to death more times than I can count...haha.  It is kind of like arguing about politics, religion, and what brand of motor oil to use!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on April 04, 2024, 09:39:21 AM

Just dropped a sell order on one of the original purchases of individual stocks in our taxable accounts. My old friend MO. The original shares were purchased sometime in 2001. Dividend reinvestment was turned on for about 12 years or so I think. PM and Kraft and Mondelez shares showed up over the years. I don't keep very good records of performance, but I suspect it was not a bad investment compared to a lot of things I bought back then (C, HOG, and GE come to mind as being purchased around that time).

This is just one more step in working towards simplification. Will eat into our 2022 TLH carryforwards basket a bit (probably $1500 or something in gains), but there's another old mutual fund holding from TRP that will likely devour the rest of it this year anyway.

This will take us to nine individual stock holdings. Down from maybe 17, depending on how one counts. Most of the others have larger gains and are likely destined for donation unless there is a major downturn.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 05, 2024, 03:02:01 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on April 04, 2024, 09:39:21 AM

Just dropped a sell order on one of the original purchases of individual stocks in our taxable accounts. My old friend MO. The original shares were purchased sometime in 2001. Dividend reinvestment was turned on for about 12 years or so I think. PM and Kraft and Mondelez shares showed up over the years. I don't keep very good records of performance, but I suspect it was not a bad investment compared to a lot of things I bought back then (C, HOG, and GE come to mind as being purchased around that time).

This is just one more step in working towards simplification. Will eat into our 2022 TLH carryforwards basket a bit (probably $1500 or something in gains), but there's another old mutual fund holding from TRP that will likely devour the rest of it this year anyway.

This will take us to nine individual stock holdings. Down from maybe 17, depending on how one counts. Most of the others have larger gains and are likely destined for donation unless there is a major downturn.

This is fascinating - we also have some individual stocks that we bought back in the late 1990s that we are still holding. We started regular automated purchase of an S&P 500 index fund in the mid 1990s but I got briefly caught up in the frenzy and bought a few individual stocks. There were some duds like GE in the bunch but to make up for that, I bought $1000 worth of Apple and $2000 of Microsoft in 1998 that we still own!

These individual stocks are a small part of our overall portfolio so I doing really need to do anything about them. But I did look into direct indexing as a way of diluting the impact of concentrated positions. You can exclude the concentrated stock that you own from the direct index. Fascinating idea but not worth the complexity in our case.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ATtiny85 on April 05, 2024, 05:52:45 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 05, 2024, 03:02:01 AM

Quote from: ATtiny85 on April 04, 2024, 09:39:21 AM

Just dropped a sell order on one of the original purchases of individual stocks in our taxable accounts. My old friend MO. The original shares were purchased sometime in 2001. Dividend reinvestment was turned on for about 12 years or so I think. PM and Kraft and Mondelez shares showed up over the years. I don't keep very good records of performance, but I suspect it was not a bad investment compared to a lot of things I bought back then (C, HOG, and GE come to mind as being purchased around that time).

This is just one more step in working towards simplification. Will eat into our 2022 TLH carryforwards basket a bit (probably $1500 or something in gains), but there's another old mutual fund holding from TRP that will likely devour the rest of it this year anyway.

This will take us to nine individual stock holdings. Down from maybe 17, depending on how one counts. Most of the others have larger gains and are likely destined for donation unless there is a major downturn.

This is fascinating - we also have some individual stocks that we bought back in the late 1990s that we are still holding. We started regular automated purchase of an S&P 500 index fund in the mid 1990s but I got briefly caught up in the frenzy and bought a few individual stocks. There were some duds like GE in the bunch but to make up for that, I bought $1000 worth of Apple and $2000 of Microsoft in 1998 that we still own!

These individual stocks are a small part of our overall portfolio so I doing really need to do anything about them. But I did look into direct indexing as a way of diluting the impact of concentrated positions. You can exclude the concentrated stock that you own from the direct index. Fascinating idea but not worth the complexity in our case.

Yeah, feel essentially the same. Just trimming a few things for no real reason except housekeeping. Helps a little bit on tax efficiency, but the driving reason is just to simplify, though not like a spreadsheet cares about a couple extra rows.

Also bought around $2000 in Microsoft back in 2002, and of course it has been quite the little workhorse. That amount, even with growth, is less than what we have in MSFT in VTSAX though.

I do think if I had some shares that went back into the 90s, I would have some nostalgia (admitting freely that the 1999-2000 rollover is just an arbitrary thing) and enjoy knowing I "bought and still hold shares from last century".  I started investing in 1994, but was not aware enough to understand much. Did buy some decent US Growth and International sort-of-OK mutual funds back then. Then proceeded to cash out a few thousand a couple times, likely to buy a snowmobile if I recall correctly. But did manage to max out IRA back then ($2000 per year yay!) and found my way quickly towards education and buy and hold around 1999.

I have read about direct indexing a bit, but never gave it more than a passing thought. I am a fully committed believer in owning the proverbial haystack without worry.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MoneyTree on April 05, 2024, 02:25:24 PM

Reminds me of my dividend stock investing days. I held between 30-50 dividend growth stocks and religiously tracked them. After I came around to indexing, i went through the long process of selling all of them off, trying to do so with the least impactful tax implications.

Just out of curiosity, what are the reasons to continue carrying forward long term capital losses? My strategy once I am no longer earning an earned income is to start recognizing as much capital gains as i can each year to step up my basis while remaining within the 0% capital gains tax bracket. Those carried over losses would just get eaten up anyways. I'm sure there are all sorts of complicating considerations, but just wanted to see if I'm missing anything.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 07, 2024, 09:39:52 AM

On the other hand, I’ve just started buying individual stocks in the last year.  At the rate of adding $25/week to my individual stocks account.  It’s more about setting up something to play with so I’ll feel like I’m still accumulating when I start to withdraw next year at FIRE.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 07, 2024, 03:06:29 PM

I've been completely retired a little over 2 weeks now. What have I done so far? Not much.  I went hiking on the Florida Trail for three days. I only hiked 36 miles and developed some blisters. They are healed up now. I've been doing some landscaping removal at the Florida house. I'm trying to make yard maintenance a little easier. I've eaten two restaurant meals since retirement. Both the day I stopped hiking. I've been to Lowe's once for some concrete crack repair mix. I've been to the grocery store twice and I've bought gasoline once. Exciting!!!
I haven't called Schwab about a 401K draw yet. I'm not sure if I will or not. I'll receive a little over 40K from pension the remainder of the year. I'm sure eventually I'll feel like spending money. Right now however, I'm thinking of getting back on the AT and hiking. Hopefully with no blisters.
I was tempting the wife with a 54 day cruise out of California to the Pacific. Hits Hawaiian Islands, Tahiti, Samoa, Australia, New Zealand, back to Hawaii, then back to California. The cost? $22,000 for a balcony room. She's like OMG!!! That's so much money!  Y'all know that ain't no money. Our accounts go up and down that much in a day at times. So she needs attitude adjustment as well. We've got a pension and 7 figures in multiple. We need help!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 07, 2024, 03:27:26 PM

@Bateaux Ahh I remember this phase well. It takes at LEAST 6 months to learn how to be retired.. You're still in "retirement diapers". Relax, enjoy, and don't feel the guilt of having "Nothing" to do.

Yes the big spend can be a challenge, it still is for us. DW and I were talking about a cruise to Antarctica to see all the wildlife.. $20k each.. OMFG!... Like you say one good day on the markets and you've made it.

I think for us we are so used to spending say $50k in a whole year that somehow blowing a years' spend on a fancy trip is just too much.. For most of us in this group it just isn't though.. i.e 4% of say $2.5M is $100k.

Add into that some current/future pension and SS income then you start to wonder how much money you die with and monsterous the tax bills will be come RMD time!

We dropped $37k 3 years back on a fancy new SUV.. Yes NEW!.. What were we thinking?.. Pulled the money out of our brokerage accounts and took the cashiers check to the dealer.. didn't even notice it! It was rather amusing though, watching the sales manager tell his junior workers several times that "No we DON'T need to run their credit!"...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on April 07, 2024, 03:42:04 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 07, 2024, 03:06:29 PM

I've been completely retired a little over 2 weeks now. What have I done so far? Not much.  I went hiking on the Florida Trail for three days. I only hiked 36 miles and developed some blisters. They are healed up now. I've been doing some landscaping removal at the Florida house. I'm trying to make yard maintenance a little easier. I've eaten two restaurant meals since retirement. Both the day I stopped hiking. I've been to Lowe's once for some concrete crack repair mix. I've been to the grocery store twice and I've bought gasoline once. Exciting!!!
I haven't called Schwab about a 401K draw yet. I'm not sure if I will or not. I'll receive a little over 40K from pension the remainder of the year. I'm sure eventually I'll feel like spending money. Right now however, I'm thinking of getting back on the AT and hiking. Hopefully with no blisters.
I was tempting the wife with a 54 day cruise out of California to the Pacific. Hits Hawaiian Islands, Tahiti, Samoa, Australia, New Zealand, back to Hawaii, then back to California. The cost? $22,000 for a balcony room. She's like OMG!!! That's so much money!  Y'all know that ain't no money. Our accounts go up and down that much in a day at times. So she needs attitude adjustment as well. We've got a pension and 7 figures in multiple. We need help!

From your previous posts, I think you will find time in your retirement to do a lot of good.  You need to get some of this other stuff out of your system first.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 07, 2024, 03:49:52 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 07, 2024, 03:06:29 PM

I've been completely retired a little over 2 weeks now. What have I done so far? Not much.  I went hiking on the Florida Trail for three days. I only hiked 36 miles and developed some blisters. They are healed up now. I've been doing some landscaping removal at the Florida house. I'm trying to make yard maintenance a little easier. I've eaten two restaurant meals since retirement. Both the day I stopped hiking. I've been to Lowe's once for some concrete crack repair mix. I've been to the grocery store twice and I've bought gasoline once. Exciting!!!
I haven't called Schwab about a 401K draw yet. I'm not sure if I will or not. I'll receive a little over 40K from pension the remainder of the year. I'm sure eventually I'll feel like spending money. Right now however, I'm thinking of getting back on the AT and hiking. Hopefully with no blisters.
I was tempting the wife with a 54 day cruise out of California to the Pacific. Hits Hawaiian Islands, Tahiti, Samoa, Australia, New Zealand, back to Hawaii, then back to California. The cost? $22,000 for a balcony room. She's like OMG!!! That's so much money!  Y'all know that ain't no money. Our accounts go up and down that much in a day at times. So she needs attitude adjustment as well. We've got a pension and 7 figures in multiple. We need help!

Tell her to subtract eating out, groceries and gas from that number.  Actually subtract your normal vacation costs from that as well.  Yup it’s a big number but it’s basically 2 months, yes I’m sure there will be excursions buts it’s going to be insignificant to the whole.  To me $5,500 a person a month isn’t “that bad”.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 07, 2024, 04:54:16 PM

Thanks for the encouragement guys. The wife was in basketball mode till today. The girls championship was won by South Carolina today. I'm probably going hike a month or so and then we're spending 2 weeks late May early June here in Florida. After that I may hike more. Sleeping without a clock has been amazing.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 07, 2024, 05:23:22 PM

Clocks aren’t the only things that wake one up.  I didn’t turn my alarm on today.  Mr. Greystone still woke me up at 6AM for his fancy feast breakfast.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Simpli-Fi on April 07, 2024, 09:17:19 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 07, 2024, 03:06:29 PM

I've been completely retired a little over 2 weeks now.
I was tempting the wife with a 54 day cruise out of California to the Pacific. Hits Hawaiian Islands, Tahiti, Samoa, Australia, New Zealand, back to Hawaii, then back to California. The cost? $22,000 for a balcony room.

That’s a steal…I’m paying half that for an Alaskan Disney cruise for 7 days (family of 4)

Two birds…as I don’t ever want to go to a Disney park and DW and I want to go to Alaska; paid for with a withdrawal at all time highs a month or so ago.

Oh and DW is uneasy about the funds too

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 08, 2024, 06:36:57 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on April 07, 2024, 09:17:19 PM

Quote from: Bateaux on April 07, 2024, 03:06:29 PM

I've been completely retired a little over 2 weeks now.
I was tempting the wife with a 54 day cruise out of California to the Pacific. Hits Hawaiian Islands, Tahiti, Samoa, Australia, New Zealand, back to Hawaii, then back to California. The cost? $22,000 for a balcony room.

That’s a steal…I’m paying half that for an Alaskan Disney cruise for 7 days (family of 4)

Two birds…as I don’t ever want to go to a Disney park and DW and I want to go to Alaska; paid for with a withdrawal at all time highs a month or so ago.

Oh and DW is uneasy about the funds too

This would be more a seniors cruise than a Disney. I don't mind the theme parks. Our Florida home is north of the Florida theme parks about an hour and a half away. Hopefully gives incentive for our kids and grandkids to visit. We haven't been to Alaska yet and my wife really wants to go. I definitely would rather cruising there. There is little more relaxing to me than being on a big ship with every detail taken care of. We avoid the short booze cruises. The longer ones are with older people.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Captain FIRE on April 08, 2024, 06:42:12 AM

Beware, we have avid Disney fan friends. They go every year with their kids (1-2x). Avid cruisers - diamond plus on Royal. Took a Disney cruise and hated it. They felt it was so expensive parents were pushing their kids to get the max enjoyment out if the trip and thus diminishing fun (eg skipping naps to not miss things, then cranky kids, but a ship full of them. Or really insistent about privileges that don’t exist, pushing/cutting lines to see chars, etc). Basically forgetting civility. The cruise line double booked our friends and another couple in a pay-lots-extra cabana on an island. Instead of calming talking it through with them/staff, the other guy was trying to start an actual brawl. So enjoy your Disney cruise, but go in wary that people may be extra. crazy.

That said, Alaska is awesome! I lived there a few years and want to take the family there when the kids are older.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 08, 2024, 07:28:25 AM

My planned Alaska Trip is going to be pricey, but I like tiny boat Cruising.  I’ll go with a less than 100 passenger UnCruise.  They actually get to Anchor in Glacier not just pass by due to their size.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on April 08, 2024, 08:30:26 AM

We did the Alaska Disney cruise with extended family back in 2013 -- we really enjoyed it.  Favorite excursions were snorkling in Skagway (the current is warmer there for some reason so it isn't as cold as you would expect, but you do have to squeeze into dry suits) and the dog sled place, which IIRC was in Juneau.  I didn't find the kids to be any worse behaved than anyplace else with a large concentration of them, but I've never done a cruise before.  My daughter LOVED the free ice cream and still remembers that more than anything else on the trip. 

Oh, panning for gold at the gold rush museum was also fun -- IIRC we found about $80 worth between us.  I still have it in a container somewhere.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 08, 2024, 09:27:34 AM

Cruises are a hard no in my family as my wife simply hates the thought of being on a ship with so many other people. I'm ambivalent about cruises myself so it's no big loss. But there are plenty of other enjoyable ways to spend our travel budget, such as traveling at the front of the plane 😀

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on April 08, 2024, 02:45:13 PM

I went to Alaska by hiring an RV as a relocation one way (Seattle to anchorage) and went back with the Alaskan Marine Ferry, stopping for a couple of days in each place. Fantastic! Very few people and a lot more time in each place.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 08, 2024, 02:56:14 PM

Quote from: deborah on April 08, 2024, 02:45:13 PM

I went to Alaska by hiring an RV as a relocation one way (Seattle to anchorage) and went back with the Alaskan Marine Ferry, stopping for a couple of days in each place. Fantastic! Very few people and a lot more time in each place.

Now this sounds like an adventure!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Captain FIRE on April 08, 2024, 03:23:40 PM

Quote from: deborah on April 08, 2024, 02:45:13 PM

I went to Alaska by hiring an RV as a relocation one way (Seattle to anchorage) and went back with the Alaskan Marine Ferry, stopping for a couple of days in each place. Fantastic! Very few people and a lot more time in each place.

Yes, Alaskan state ferry is pretty awesome! Prices are fairly reasonable and you can see a bit. I think I traveled to Haines, Skagway, etc that way, in addition to Seattle/Juneau.

Fun fact: In Juneau we did not lock our car doors, because cars weren't really stolen there (only for parts). Had to register a car on the ferry months in advance to get a car in/out.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 09, 2024, 10:17:48 AM

DH wants to take our rig to Alaska, so my ears have perked up. I've heard a bit of Deborah's Alaska Adventure. Any other tales are appreciated.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on April 09, 2024, 10:33:45 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 08, 2024, 09:27:34 AM

Cruises are a hard no in my family as my wife simply hates the thought of being on a ship with so many other people. I'm ambivalent about cruises myself so it's no big loss. But there are plenty of other enjoyable ways to spend our travel budget, such as traveling at the front of the plane 😀

If it's just the people, have you looked at smaller cruise ships? My parents enjoy those. I think they even consider the limited dining options a plus, as they don't have to make so many decisions.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 09, 2024, 11:21:06 AM

Quote from: ixtap on April 09, 2024, 10:33:45 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 08, 2024, 09:27:34 AM

Cruises are a hard no in my family as my wife simply hates the thought of being on a ship with so many other people. I'm ambivalent about cruises myself so it's no big loss. But there are plenty of other enjoyable ways to spend our travel budget, such as traveling at the front of the plane 😀

If it's just the people, have you looked at smaller cruise ships? My parents enjoy those. I think they even consider the limited dining options a plus, as they don't have to make so many decisions.

Thats an interesting thought - it might work if it's a really small ship. I'll suggest that and see what she thinks

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on April 09, 2024, 01:16:43 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 09, 2024, 11:21:06 AM

Quote from: ixtap on April 09, 2024, 10:33:45 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 08, 2024, 09:27:34 AM

Cruises are a hard no in my family as my wife simply hates the thought of being on a ship with so many other people. I'm ambivalent about cruises myself so it's no big loss. But there are plenty of other enjoyable ways to spend our travel budget, such as traveling at the front of the plane 😀

If it's just the people, have you looked at smaller cruise ships? My parents enjoy those. I think they even consider the limited dining options a plus, as they don't have to make so many decisions.

Thats an interesting thought - it might work if it's a really small ship. I'll suggest that and see what she thinks

I'd suggest trying a river cruise.  We did our first Viking river cruise last summer and had a blast.  It really changed the cruising game for us.  No kids, very small ships, very small passenger count ( under 200 ), at least one included excursion per port, and you dock at an interesting place of interest every day ( i.e. - NOT a port ), etc... One downside, at least on Viking, is the average passenger age is quite high.  However, that didn't bother us at all.  There were some crazy fit seniors on our river cruise that were quite inspirational.

We liked our Viking river cruise so much that we are going to try one of their ocean ships soon.  Their ocean ships are similar in concept to their river cruises.  No kids, smaller ship size ( around 900 passengers max ), ALL rooms are balconies, included excursion at each port, etc...

And yes, you can find some relatively good deals on Viking if you hit their deals at the right time.  The biggest perk is free international airfare.  And you can even snag a free drink package along with the free air every now and then.  Drink package really isn't necessary though because they include beer/wine at lunch and dinner.   

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on April 09, 2024, 02:32:25 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on April 09, 2024, 01:16:43 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 09, 2024, 11:21:06 AM

Quote from: ixtap on April 09, 2024, 10:33:45 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 08, 2024, 09:27:34 AM

Cruises are a hard no in my family as my wife simply hates the thought of being on a ship with so many other people. I'm ambivalent about cruises myself so it's no big loss. But there are plenty of other enjoyable ways to spend our travel budget, such as traveling at the front of the plane 😀

If it's just the people, have you looked at smaller cruise ships? My parents enjoy those. I think they even consider the limited dining options a plus, as they don't have to make so many decisions.

Thats an interesting thought - it might work if it's a really small ship. I'll suggest that and see what she thinks

I'd suggest trying a river cruise.  We did our first Viking river cruise last summer and had a blast.  It really changed the cruising game for us.  No kids, very small ships, very small passenger count ( under 200 ), at least one included excursion per port, and you dock at an interesting place of interest every day ( i.e. - NOT a port ), etc... One downside, at least on Viking, is the average passenger age is quite high.  However, that didn't bother us at all.  There were some crazy fit seniors on our river cruise that were quite inspirational.

We liked our Viking river cruise so much that we are going to try one of their ocean ships soon.  Their ocean ships are similar in concept to their river cruises.  No kids, smaller ship size ( around 900 passengers max ), ALL rooms are balconies, included excursion at each port, etc...

And yes, you can find some relatively good deals on Viking if you hit their deals at the right time.  The biggest perk is free international airfare.  And you can even snag a free drink package along with the free air every now and then.  Drink package really isn't necessary though because they include beer/wine at lunch and dinner.   

Our American Cruise Lines trip in the Columbia River was only 100 passengers.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on April 10, 2024, 05:07:21 AM

Quote from: Simpli-Fi on April 07, 2024, 09:17:19 PM

Two birds.....

Yes my child?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: weebs on April 10, 2024, 09:19:05 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 08, 2024, 09:27:34 AM

But there are plenty of other enjoyable ways to spend our travel budget, such as traveling at the front of the plane 😀

Agree 100%.  We splurged on business class tickets back and forth across the pond this summer and it was fantastic.  Expensive...but fantastic.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 10, 2024, 03:55:54 PM

Quote from: weebs on April 10, 2024, 09:19:05 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 08, 2024, 09:27:34 AM

But there are plenty of other enjoyable ways to spend our travel budget, such as traveling at the front of the plane 😀

Agree 100%.  We splurged on business class tickets back and forth across the pond this summer and it was fantastic.  Expensive...but fantastic.

We are off to Europe next week for a vacation. I just realized that this trip will cost more than what we spent on travel for the first ten years after we got married - we didn't even have a honeymoon since we had no money! I'm getting dangerously close "Four Yorkshiremen" territory so I'll stop here :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Exflyboy on April 10, 2024, 11:21:09 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 10, 2024, 03:55:54 PM

Quote from: weebs on April 10, 2024, 09:19:05 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 08, 2024, 09:27:34 AM

But there are plenty of other enjoyable ways to spend our travel budget, such as traveling at the front of the plane 😀

Agree 100%.  We splurged on business class tickets back and forth across the pond this summer and it was fantastic.  Expensive...but fantastic.

We are off to Europe next week for a vacation. I just realized that this trip will cost more than what we spent on travel for the first ten years after we got married - we didn't even have a honeymoon since we had no money! I'm getting dangerously close "Four Yorkshiremen" territory so I'll stop here :-)

"Travel in the first yen years of marriage"?.. Luxury!...:)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 11, 2024, 06:49:51 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 10, 2024, 03:55:54 PM

Quote from: weebs on April 10, 2024, 09:19:05 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 08, 2024, 09:27:34 AM

But there are plenty of other enjoyable ways to spend our travel budget, such as traveling at the front of the plane 😀

Agree 100%.  We splurged on business class tickets back and forth across the pond this summer and it was fantastic.  Expensive...but fantastic.

We are off to Europe next week for a vacation. I just realized that this trip will cost more than what we spent on travel for the first ten years after we got married - we didn't even have a honeymoon since we had no money! I'm getting dangerously close "Four Yorkshiremen" territory so I'll stop here :-)

Same.  No honeymoon and not a lot of travel first ten years.
The day after our marriage I was in a convoy headed to Fort Hood Texas. The Gulf War was starting, Bush 41 cut orders saying I belonged to Uncle Sam and not my wife.
In 1992 no longer active in the military, I got a pretty good job and worked for the company for 32 years. I worked five times as much overtime than I had vacation time. Thankfully on some of those long nights there were books I could read a few chapters of and travel in my own mind. It was quite a stir however when you had to put down a great John D McDonald novel about Florida and answer an alarm in Level A chemical gear. Walking into a fog of phosgene gas is something few will ever experience. At least I'm hopeful they don't.
I'm ready to see some of the places in those books.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on April 11, 2024, 07:39:44 AM

We got married when we moved to San Diego, so the whole ten years and a few months has been our honeymoon ;)

Most of that time, "vacation" meant visiting family or taking the boat out to the islands. The last 18 months or so have made up for it. I will think "we have been home for six weeks...oh, nvm, we did that road trip. I am actually typing this from the airport. My first solo trip in a very long time, but I am taking Mom and her sister to a resort, so still family time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on April 11, 2024, 02:42:43 PM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 10, 2024, 03:55:54 PM

Quote from: weebs on April 10, 2024, 09:19:05 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 08, 2024, 09:27:34 AM

But there are plenty of other enjoyable ways to spend our travel budget, such as traveling at the front of the plane 😀

Agree 100%.  We splurged on business class tickets back and forth across the pond this summer and it was fantastic.  Expensive...but fantastic.

We are off to Europe next week for a vacation. I just realized that this trip will cost more than what we spent on travel for the first ten years after we got married - we didn't even have a honeymoon since we had no money! I'm getting dangerously close "Four Yorkshiremen" territory so I'll stop here :-)

heh, we definitely spend more EVERY year on vacation now than we did in the first 10 combined.  ("travel" was usually a day trip to our old MLB park for $5 seats, $20 of old time train rides with our little ones, or trips to one set of grandparents which would cost the tank of gas....finding the time off was even harder than the money). 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 11, 2024, 03:01:59 PM

I barely left the state of California before I turned 18 (Hoover Dam and the border of Oregon).  Travel since then has always been a priority, but I no longer stay at hostels.  I did splurge for the Big Front Seat on Spirit one flight and a cheap First Class day before auction win on another flight, but it wasn't that much better than economy. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on April 11, 2024, 03:21:33 PM

Quote from: couponvan on April 11, 2024, 03:01:59 PM

I barely left the state of California before I turned 18 (Hoover Dam and the border of Oregon).  Travel since then has always been a priority, but I no longer stay at hostels.  I did splurge for the Big Front Seat on Spirit one flight and a cheap First Class day before auction win on another flight, but it wasn't that much better than economy.

How are the Spirit premium front seats?  This is the only way I would ever fly on Spirit.  Spirit packs you in like sardines...and I can't stand them. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 11, 2024, 08:03:46 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on April 11, 2024, 03:21:33 PM

Quote from: couponvan on April 11, 2024, 03:01:59 PM

I barely left the state of California before I turned 18 (Hoover Dam and the border of Oregon).  Travel since then has always been a priority, but I no longer stay at hostels.  I did splurge for the Big Front Seat on Spirit one flight and a cheap First Class day before auction win on another flight, but it wasn't that much better than economy.

How are the Spirit premium front seats?  This is the only way I would ever fly on Spirit.  Spirit packs you in like sardines...and I can't stand them.

They are good but don’t come with food or drinks. You ARE first off and on the plane, which is nice with a tight connection. They will offer bidding prices before the flight if any seats are still unsold. My hack is that usually you can go in and buy the seats upgrade at that point for a few dollars more than the lower range of their bidding system.

I actually prefer Spirit to United at this point. No one on Spirit is a snobby traveler! Plus I am not a tall person so it’s fine for me. Also going to the actual airport to buy your Spirit tickets is about $34 RT cheaper per ticket. For 5 people it adds up. And our family uses 1 checked bag. Because their bag fees are high, you usually don’t wait very long for bags. Southwest took forever to get my bags last time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on April 15, 2024, 10:19:29 AM

Quote from: couponvan on April 11, 2024, 08:03:46 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on April 11, 2024, 03:21:33 PM

Quote from: couponvan on April 11, 2024, 03:01:59 PM

I barely left the state of California before I turned 18 (Hoover Dam and the border of Oregon).  Travel since then has always been a priority, but I no longer stay at hostels.  I did splurge for the Big Front Seat on Spirit one flight and a cheap First Class day before auction win on another flight, but it wasn't that much better than economy.

How are the Spirit premium front seats?  This is the only way I would ever fly on Spirit.  Spirit packs you in like sardines...and I can't stand them.

They are good but don’t come with food or drinks. You ARE first off and on the plane, which is nice with a tight connection. They will offer bidding prices before the flight if any seats are still unsold. My hack is that usually you can go in and buy the seats upgrade at that point for a few dollars more than the lower range of their bidding system.

I actually prefer Spirit to United at this point. No one on Spirit is a snobby traveler! Plus I am not a tall person so it’s fine for me. Also going to the actual airport to buy your Spirit tickets is about $34 RT cheaper per ticket. For 5 people it adds up. And our family uses 1 checked bag. Because their bag fees are high, you usually don’t wait very long for bags. Southwest took forever to get my bags last time.

Thanks for the info.  We might try Spirit and do the the "big front seat" thing when/if the opportunity happens.  Only issue for us is Spirit rarely has direct flights to our destinations...similar to Southwest.  We have been flying Sun Country lately because they have cheap direct flights to NC.  And as we get older, direct flights are becoming much more of a big deal to us.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on April 15, 2024, 10:56:10 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on April 15, 2024, 10:19:29 AM

Quote from: couponvan on April 11, 2024, 08:03:46 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on April 11, 2024, 03:21:33 PM

Quote from: couponvan on April 11, 2024, 03:01:59 PM

I barely left the state of California before I turned 18 (Hoover Dam and the border of Oregon).  Travel since then has always been a priority, but I no longer stay at hostels.  I did splurge for the Big Front Seat on Spirit one flight and a cheap First Class day before auction win on another flight, but it wasn't that much better than economy.

How are the Spirit premium front seats?  This is the only way I would ever fly on Spirit.  Spirit packs you in like sardines...and I can't stand them.

They are good but don’t come with food or drinks. You ARE first off and on the plane, which is nice with a tight connection. They will offer bidding prices before the flight if any seats are still unsold. My hack is that usually you can go in and buy the seats upgrade at that point for a few dollars more than the lower range of their bidding system.

I actually prefer Spirit to United at this point. No one on Spirit is a snobby traveler! Plus I am not a tall person so it’s fine for me. Also going to the actual airport to buy your Spirit tickets is about $34 RT cheaper per ticket. For 5 people it adds up. And our family uses 1 checked bag. Because their bag fees are high, you usually don’t wait very long for bags. Southwest took forever to get my bags last time.

Thanks for the info.  We might try Spirit and do the the "big front seat" thing when/if the opportunity happens.  Only issue for us is Spirit rarely has direct flights to our destinations...similar to Southwest.  We have been flying Sun Country lately because they have cheap direct flights to NC.  And as we get older, direct flights are becoming much more of a big deal to us.

.
Do the front seats come with a free carry on? Spirit was not the cheapest once we each had a carry on each way.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 15, 2024, 03:42:55 PM

Quote from: ixtap on April 15, 2024, 10:56:10 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on April 15, 2024, 10:19:29 AM

Quote from: couponvan on April 11, 2024, 08:03:46 PM

Quote from: farmecologist on April 11, 2024, 03:21:33 PM

Quote from: couponvan on April 11, 2024, 03:01:59 PM

I barely left the state of California before I turned 18 (Hoover Dam and the border of Oregon).  Travel since then has always been a priority, but I no longer stay at hostels.  I did splurge for the Big Front Seat on Spirit one flight and a cheap First Class day before auction win on another flight, but it wasn't that much better than economy.

How are the Spirit premium front seats?  This is the only way I would ever fly on Spirit.  Spirit packs you in like sardines...and I can't stand them.

They are good but don’t come with food or drinks. You ARE first off and on the plane, which is nice with a tight connection. They will offer bidding prices before the flight if any seats are still unsold. My hack is that usually you can go in and buy the seats upgrade at that point for a few dollars more than the lower range of their bidding system.

I actually prefer Spirit to United at this point. No one on Spirit is a snobby traveler! Plus I am not a tall person so it’s fine for me. Also going to the actual airport to buy your Spirit tickets is about $34 RT cheaper per ticket. For 5 people it adds up. And our family uses 1 checked bag. Because their bag fees are high, you usually don’t wait very long for bags. Southwest took forever to get my bags last time.

Thanks for the info.  We might try Spirit and do the the "big front seat" thing when/if the opportunity happens.  Only issue for us is Spirit rarely has direct flights to our destinations...similar to Southwest.  We have been flying Sun Country lately because they have cheap direct flights to NC.  And as we get older, direct flights are becoming much more of a big deal to us.

.
Do the front seats come with a free carry on? Spirit was not the cheapest once we each had a carry on each way.

I don't think so.  Our Spirit value is definitely in group travel for 5 with 1 checked bag for the family.  Carry ons are pricey. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 15, 2024, 07:40:15 PM

The 10-year-old behind me on a flight last week saw a Spirit plane and said, “It’s called spirit because 90% of the people who fly it end up as spirits.”  Clearly not true, but being charged for a carry-on? Yeah, with that and no legroom, I wouldn’t be caught dead flying Spirit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: deborah on April 15, 2024, 08:11:16 PM

You're all making me think that Spirit is the way to go! I absolutely hate the amount of carry on luggage everyone else has whenever I fly in America, the amount of time it takes to board and disembark because everyone there has so much, and the flouting of the rules and regulations limiting the size of bags so that people are trying to squeeze bags into places it doesn't fit.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: ixtap on April 16, 2024, 06:38:44 AM

Quote from: deborah on April 15, 2024, 08:11:16 PM

You're all making me think that Spirit is the way to go! I absolutely hate the amount of carry on luggage everyone else has whenever I fly in America, the amount of time it takes to board and disembark because everyone there has so much, and the flouting of the rules and regulations limiting the size of bags so that people are trying to squeeze bags into places it doesn't fit.

Checked bags are cheaper on Spirit, but DH can't check his laptop. And he no longer has a smaller bag for it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 16, 2024, 06:53:09 AM

Quote from: deborah on April 15, 2024, 08:11:16 PM

You're all making me think that Spirit is the way to go! I absolutely hate the amount of carry on luggage everyone else has whenever I fly in America, the amount of time it takes to board and disembark because everyone there has so much, and the flouting of the rules and regulations limiting the size of bags so that people are trying to squeeze bags into places it doesn't fit.

There aren't hoity toity people on Spirit or Breeze or Fly Frontier.  But there are some "interesting" people.  Breeze usually departs the gate 10-15 minutes early.  I've loved flying them, although their seats could use an extra cushion.  It avoids most heavy people flying them and their leg room is respectable.  It's the only nonstop to SFO from RIC as well, so I fly Breeze now almost every time.  I have clothing/pjs and toiletries at my mom's house, so I REALLY can just fly with a personal item.  The same goes for her.  She's got a full set of clothes and pjs and toiletries here.  It's $129 each way on their cheapest legs.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 17, 2024, 07:46:45 AM

Add me in as spending more on travel in a year than my first 10 years as an “Adult” when I mainly just visited family.  I still got to see some things as work has me travel frequently but all I traveled to personally was Michigan or Florida.

I’m not anti low cost airlines, but I like at least 1 flight a day to my destination and if I’m going with them I want direct, which mostly doesn’t exist for my preferred US routes.  Plus I’ve found as a single traveler not going to a family home plus adding in a bag (either carry on or checked) = costing close to the same anyway so I’d rather go mainline because with their large volume of flights there are more alternatives when things go wrong. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 17, 2024, 08:27:17 AM

Quote from: Fomerly known as something on April 17, 2024, 07:46:45 AM

Add me in as spending more on travel in a year than my first 10 years as an “Adult” when I mainly just visited family.  I still got to see some things as work has me travel frequently but all I traveled to personally was Michigan or Florida.

I’m not anti low cost airlines, but I like at least 1 flight a day to my destination and if I’m going with them I want direct, which mostly doesn’t exist for my preferred US routes.  Plus I’ve found as a single traveler not going to a family home plus adding in a bag (either carry on or checked) = costing close to the same anyway so I’d rather go mainline because with their large volume of flights there are more alternatives when things go wrong.

Yes, the equation changes for solo traveling and brining things.  Breeze is having a 40% off sale flights through 6/13 and flights after 8/2?. Alas our flight is in summer when the fares are not lower, but still worked out fine. 

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on April 18, 2024, 08:13:13 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on April 11, 2024, 03:21:33 PM

Quote from: couponvan on April 11, 2024, 03:01:59 PM

I barely left the state of California before I turned 18 (Hoover Dam and the border of Oregon).  Travel since then has always been a priority, but I no longer stay at hostels.  I did splurge for the Big Front Seat on Spirit one flight and a cheap First Class day before auction win on another flight, but it wasn't that much better than economy.

How are the Spirit premium front seats?  This is the only way I would ever fly on Spirit.  Spirit packs you in like sardines...and I can't stand them.

Last week, my sweetie took her son out to Minneapolis to check out the University of Minnesota (he's a HS senior) and got a great price on Sun Country Airlines out of IAD.  However, they charged $45 (!!!) for a carry-on each way, plus she got suckered / scared into paying for seat assignments... another $20 each way; so, when all was said and done (especially when you throw in the cost of Uber roundtrip to/from IAD), it was no bargain.  I didn't hear either of them complain about the legroom or seat comfort, though, although they're not tall and it was a short flight.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: farmecologist on April 18, 2024, 08:51:57 AM

Quote from: jeroly on April 18, 2024, 08:13:13 AM

Quote from: farmecologist on April 11, 2024, 03:21:33 PM

Quote from: couponvan on April 11, 2024, 03:01:59 PM

I barely left the state of California before I turned 18 (Hoover Dam and the border of Oregon).  Travel since then has always been a priority, but I no longer stay at hostels.  I did splurge for the Big Front Seat on Spirit one flight and a cheap First Class day before auction win on another flight, but it wasn't that much better than economy.

How are the Spirit premium front seats?  This is the only way I would ever fly on Spirit.  Spirit packs you in like sardines...and I can't stand them.

Last week, my sweetie took her son out to Minneapolis to check out the University of Minnesota (he's a HS senior) and got a great price on Sun Country Airlines out of IAD.  However, they charged $45 (!!!) for a carry-on each way, plus she got suckered / scared into paying for seat assignments... another $20 each way; so, when all was said and done (especially when you throw in the cost of Uber roundtrip to/from IAD), it was no bargain.  I didn't hear either of them complain about the legroom or seat comfort, though, although they're not tall and it was a short flight.

True "bargains" are hard to come by these days.  Pretty much all carriers nickel and dime you these days in different ways.  Luckily, Google flights does allow you to add bags to the search, so the carryon fee shouldn't have come as a surprise.

Of all the low cost carriers we have dealt with, we like Sun Country the best.  This is likely due to the fact that they have direct flights to our destinations out of Minneapolis.  And I like the fact we can choose seats.  I'm more than a bit claustrophobic and will gladly pay to be near the very front of the plane, not to mention it gets you off the plane much faster.

We fly Southwest as well, but they always seem to have at least one connecting flight, and you can't choose seats.  They do have some great deals every now and then though, but we do pay for "early bird" to bump us further up in the queue.

I am also intrigued by Spirit's "big front seat", and will definitely try it if the opportunity presents itself.


And yes, I am considered the "travel bargain guru" of our family.  I'd wager many here are as well...haha.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on April 18, 2024, 01:33:41 PM

We took Spirit to a Florida vacation for a week.  The nickel and dime system had me all pissed off when planning, then when I compared to every other airline, we were many hundreds cheaper on Spirit.  All 4 of us had the "personal item" and my type 1 diabetes son had his diabetes equipment in a separate bag and the Spirit people were all like 3 steps back with their palms up.  They wanted nothing to do with giving him any crap.  I have to think it's a Federal disability law and if they break it, the airline's probably in for Attorney Jackie from Seinfeld emptying their bank account.  Anyways, the 4 of us packed the way I pack (I flew everywhere for work for a while), so 4 of us had our stuff in a single checked bag.  What I really liked were the fiberglas, non reclineable seats.  No more stupid teenager in front of me trying to lay in my lap.  More room because the seat is way thinner.  It was comfortable enough as far as I'm concerned.

Don't know if things are changed at all.  Haven't flown for years and only for work stuff in the last 10.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 18, 2024, 06:08:06 PM

It tickles me that we're having this discussion on the "Race from $2M" etc. thread.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on April 18, 2024, 07:31:13 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on April 18, 2024, 01:33:41 PM

We took Spirit to a Florida vacation for a week.  The nickel and dime system had me all pissed off when planning, then when I compared to every other airline, we were many hundreds cheaper on Spirit.  All 4 of us had the "personal item" and my type 1 diabetes son had his diabetes equipment in a separate bag and the Spirit people were all like 3 steps back with their palms up.  They wanted nothing to do with giving him any crap.  I have to think it's a Federal disability law and if they break it, the airline's probably in for Attorney Jackie from Seinfeld emptying their bank account.  Anyways, the 4 of us packed the way I pack (I flew everywhere for work for a while), so 4 of us had our stuff in a single checked bag.  What I really liked were the fiberglas, non reclineable seats.  No more stupid teenager in front of me trying to lay in my lap.  More room because the seat is way thinner.  It was comfortable enough as far as I'm concerned.

Don't know if things are changed at all.  Haven't flown for years and only for work stuff in the last 10.

I got a compact suitcase (Samsonite, I believe) that fit Spirit's criteria for 'personal item' and I can stow it under the seat in front of me.  Actually, it used to fit the criteria, and then Spirit changed the allowable dimensions (maybe from 9x14x8 to 8x14x7 or something like that, just a smidgeon), but they've never given me grief about it in the years since the official change.  If I pack it efficiently I can just squeeze in enough clothing and supplies for a four-day weekend getaway, and not have to pay anything above the cheapo base fare.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Freedomin5 on April 18, 2024, 09:20:55 PM

Quote from: Dicey on April 18, 2024, 06:08:06 PM

It tickles me that we're having this discussion on the "Race from $2M" etc. thread.

I suppose this is how many of us got to the Race from $2M thread in the first place. :)

DH and I just had a discussion last night about whether it was worth spending an extra $20 pp for first class train tickets. Actually, I basically had the conversation with myself, with DH going, "Yeah, yeah, okay, whatever. It doesn't matter." We I ultimately decided that it's not worth it.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on April 19, 2024, 05:25:50 AM

Quote from: Freedomin5 on April 18, 2024, 09:20:55 PM

Quote from: Dicey on April 18, 2024, 06:08:06 PM

It tickles me that we're having this discussion on the "Race from $2M" etc. thread.

I suppose this is how many of us got to the Race from $2M thread in the first place. :)

DH and I just had a discussion last night about whether it was worth spending an extra $20 pp for first class train tickets. Actually, I basically had the conversation with myself, with DH going, "Yeah, yeah, okay, whatever. It doesn't matter." We I ultimately decided that it's not worth it.

I'm guessing that this applies to your time in China?  The price differences in most Western countries are much more stark.

Now that I'm living large during my travels (I've let my travel budget balloon post-Covid to $1,500/week - not that I'm always spending that much, but I give myself the freedom to), I will allow myself the luxury of upgrading from economy class train tickets when traveling in developing nations.  On my most recent trip, to Indonesia, I splurged and spent $44 (vs. $16 for economy) on an 'exsecutif'-class seat for my six hour train ride from Jakarta to Yogyakarta.  Yes it had a slightly comfier seat, but more importantly: it was airconditioned at a temperature that was not subzero, there was no smoking in the car, and the bathrooms sported clean western toilets (not a pit in the floor that had been subject to shockingly bad aim) - money well spent.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Bateaux on April 21, 2024, 08:45:36 AM

I've been planning my next adventure.
Greyhound Bus from my town in Louisiana to New Orleans. $15
Amtrak from New Orleans to Gainesville, GA $46
Shuttle from Gainesville, GA to Amicalalola Falls. $62
The last 31 miles will cost me more than the First 500+ miles.
It pisses me off we don't have better bus service .

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 21, 2024, 08:49:16 AM

Quote from: jeroly on April 19, 2024, 05:25:50 AM

Quote from: Freedomin5 on April 18, 2024, 09:20:55 PM

Quote from: Dicey on April 18, 2024, 06:08:06 PM

It tickles me that we're having this discussion on the "Race from $2M" etc. thread.

I suppose this is how many of us got to the Race from $2M thread in the first place. :)

DH and I just had a discussion last night about whether it was worth spending an extra $20 pp for first class train tickets. Actually, I basically had the conversation with myself, with DH going, "Yeah, yeah, okay, whatever. It doesn't matter." We I ultimately decided that it's not worth it.

I'm guessing that this applies to your time in China?  The price differences in most Western countries are much more stark.

Now that I'm living large during my travels (I've let my travel budget balloon post-Covid to $1,500/week - not that I'm always spending that much, but I give myself the freedom to), I will allow myself the luxury of upgrading from economy class train tickets when traveling in developing nations.  On my most recent trip, to Indonesia, I splurged and spent $44 (vs. $16 for economy) on an 'exsecutif'-class seat for my six hour train ride from Jakarta to Yogyakarta.  Yes it had a slightly comfier seat, but more importantly: it was airconditioned at a temperature that was not subzero, there was no smoking in the car, and the bathrooms sported clean western toilets (not a pit in the floor that had been subject to shockingly bad aim) - money well spent.

Your return per hour for that difference was well worth the upgrade!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on April 22, 2024, 09:46:56 AM

@Exflyboy - a decision has been made, and my son is going to OSU in the fall. I'm excited to check out Corvallis. We were there for admitted students day a few weeks ago, but a half marathon was taking place & we were re-routed & didn't get to check out the down town area. Please send any restaurant recommendations my way, or other fun local things to do. We have several trips planned, between orientation, move in weekend, parents weekend, etc.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: lhamo on April 22, 2024, 10:36:38 AM

Not ExFlyboy, but we had some pretty good sushi downtown during our visit!  The park by the river is a nice walk (we stayed at the cheapish hotel just a couple of blocks north of the bridge -- I think it is a Holiday Inn Express?).

Congrats on having made the decision and hope it turns out to be a great fit for your kiddo!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 23, 2024, 03:53:26 AM

Quote from: jeroly on April 19, 2024, 05:25:50 AM

Quote from: Freedomin5 on April 18, 2024, 09:20:55 PM

Quote from: Dicey on April 18, 2024, 06:08:06 PM

It tickles me that we're having this discussion on the "Race from $2M" etc. thread.

I suppose this is how many of us got to the Race from $2M thread in the first place. :)

DH and I just had a discussion last night about whether it was worth spending an extra $20 pp for first class train tickets. Actually, I basically had the conversation with myself, with DH going, "Yeah, yeah, okay, whatever. It doesn't matter." We I ultimately decided that it's not worth it.

I'm guessing that this applies to your time in China?  The price differences in most Western countries are much more stark.

Now that I'm living large during my travels (I've let my travel budget balloon post-Covid to $1,500/week - not that I'm always spending that much, but I give myself the freedom to), I will allow myself the luxury of upgrading from economy class train tickets when traveling in developing nations.  On my most recent trip, to Indonesia, I splurged and spent $44 (vs. $16 for economy) on an 'exsecutif'-class seat for my six hour train ride from Jakarta to Yogyakarta.  Yes it had a slightly comfier seat, but more importantly: it was airconditioned at a temperature that was not subzero, there was no smoking in the car, and the bathrooms sported clean western toilets (not a pit in the floor that had been subject to shockingly bad aim) - money well spent.

We just got back from a week in Europe:
Air tickets: $8k (business class, 2 tickets)
Hotels: $1500 (stayed only in non-chain boutique hotels)
Rental car and taxi: $500
Food: $400
Attractions: $500

Had a wonderful time and all of this spending had almost no effect on our net worth. We will do one more trip like this later this year, not sure where. No regrets.

We all have our foibles when it comes to spending - I just can't get myself to buy an expensive car but I have no problem spending on travel.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on April 23, 2024, 04:25:00 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 23, 2024, 03:53:26 AM

Quote from: jeroly on April 19, 2024, 05:25:50 AM

Quote from: Freedomin5 on April 18, 2024, 09:20:55 PM

Quote from: Dicey on April 18, 2024, 06:08:06 PM

It tickles me that we're having this discussion on the "Race from $2M" etc. thread.

I suppose this is how many of us got to the Race from $2M thread in the first place. :)

DH and I just had a discussion last night about whether it was worth spending an extra $20 pp for first class train tickets. Actually, I basically had the conversation with myself, with DH going, "Yeah, yeah, okay, whatever. It doesn't matter." We I ultimately decided that it's not worth it.

I'm guessing that this applies to your time in China?  The price differences in most Western countries are much more stark.

Now that I'm living large during my travels (I've let my travel budget balloon post-Covid to $1,500/week - not that I'm always spending that much, but I give myself the freedom to), I will allow myself the luxury of upgrading from economy class train tickets when traveling in developing nations.  On my most recent trip, to Indonesia, I splurged and spent $44 (vs. $16 for economy) on an 'exsecutif'-class seat for my six hour train ride from Jakarta to Yogyakarta.  Yes it had a slightly comfier seat, but more importantly: it was airconditioned at a temperature that was not subzero, there was no smoking in the car, and the bathrooms sported clean western toilets (not a pit in the floor that had been subject to shockingly bad aim) - money well spent.

We just got back from a week in Europe:
Air tickets: $8k (business class, 2 tickets)
Hotels: $1500 (stayed only in non-chain boutique hotels)
Rental car and taxi: $500
Food: $400
Attractions: $500

Had a wonderful time and all of this spending had almost no effect on our net worth. We will do one more trip like this later this year, not sure where. No regrets.

We all have our foibles when it comes to spending - I just can't get myself to buy an expensive car but I have no problem spending on travel.

Less than $30/day/person for food without a kitchen?
I wonder how you did it and, given that budget, why?

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 23, 2024, 06:13:49 AM

Quote from: jeroly on April 23, 2024, 04:25:00 AM

Less than $30/day/person for food without a kitchen?
I wonder how you did it and, given that budget, why?

I realize that I left out one important thing - all of the hotels we stayed in included lavish breakfasts in the room price. so we loaded up on breakfast and  mostly skipped lunch and had a nice dinner every day. We are not too fussy about food and my wife is a vegetarian so that reduces our options a lot. Even so, all of our meals were excellent.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 23, 2024, 06:19:25 AM

Quote from: jeroly on April 19, 2024, 05:25:50 AM

Now that I'm living large during my travels (I've let my travel budget balloon post-Covid to $1,500/week - not that I'm always spending that much, but I give myself the freedom to), I will allow myself the luxury of upgrading from economy class train tickets when traveling in developing nations.  On my most recent trip, to Indonesia, I splurged and spent $44 (vs. $16 for economy) on an 'exsecutif'-class seat for my six hour train ride from Jakarta to Yogyakarta.  Yes it had a slightly comfier seat, but more importantly: it was airconditioned at a temperature that was not subzero, there was no smoking in the car, and the bathrooms sported clean western toilets (not a pit in the floor that had been subject to shockingly bad aim) - money well spent.

This reminded me - I visited Indonesia back in 1989 and had a wonderful time. I took the day train from Jakarta to Bandung which was over air-conditioned like you mentioned and shivered in a T-shirt. Apart from Java, I also visited Padang on the west coast of Sumatra and Bali (of course).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 23, 2024, 06:29:26 AM

@2sk22 how long was the flight? I am usually in the “economy flight for luxury rooms” camp because flight times are short and business class isn’t “that” much better than economy.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on April 23, 2024, 06:36:33 AM

Quote from: couponvan on April 23, 2024, 06:29:26 AM

@2sk22 how long was the flight? I am usually in the “economy flight for luxury rooms” camp because flight times are short and business class isn’t “that” much better than economy.

It's around 24 hours from the east coast to get there - maybe a bit less if you get a nonstop to Singapore (pricier ticket) and get a good connection for the 2+ hour flight to Jakarta.  My return via Jeddah left at 1:20pm EDT and arrived at 3:10pm the next day and included a three hour layover.  The other times I've been there I had traveled via Tokyo and it was about the same travel time.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: 2sk22 on April 23, 2024, 06:56:07 AM

Quote from: couponvan on April 23, 2024, 06:29:26 AM

@2sk22 how long was the flight? I am usually in the “economy flight for luxury rooms” camp because flight times are short and business class isn’t “that” much better than economy.

Our flight was about 7 hours both ways. I have to say business class is a lot better than economy for overnight flights. We slept really well and were able to do a full day of sightseeing when we arrived. We have done transatlantic economy many times and we are usually like zombies for the first day in Europe, especially if your hotel does not allow early checkin. In this trip, I splurged and paid for an extra night to ensure that a room would be waiting for us when we arrived in the morning - luxe travel for sure :-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 23, 2024, 07:53:48 AM

I recently discovered I’m good with the “middle class” on international flights.  Some are branded as Premium Economy, some they drop the economy part because it’s a very much a different class.  The seats are about the same as US domestic first class. I was team Business, but took a work trip to India that paying for Polaris was too dear but the middle product was something I was willing to pay and found I’m good with it.  My main economy complaint is that I feel like my shoulders are too wide to sit comfortably in regular economy and I’m always leaning away from the middle seat so my back hurts after a 3 hour flight.  If I had a significant other to lean into, I might not feel the same way about it.  The extra seat width and the ability to recline a tad more is enough for me to be happy and get an OK amount of sleep.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on April 23, 2024, 08:13:20 AM

Quote from: lhamo on April 22, 2024, 10:36:38 AM

Not ExFlyboy, but we had some pretty good sushi downtown during our visit!  The park by the river is a nice walk (we stayed at the cheapish hotel just a couple of blocks north of the bridge -- I think it is a Holiday Inn Express?).

Congrats on having made the decision and hope it turns out to be a great fit for your kiddo!

thanks! We are excited to spend time visiting. I grew up not super far away & have never spent time there. I think it will be a great fit for him, and also super happy the decision is made! On to the same process for DS17. ;-)

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: PathtoFIRE on April 23, 2024, 10:39:29 AM

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 23, 2024, 06:56:07 AM

In this trip, I splurged and paid for an extra night to ensure that a room would be waiting for us when we arrived in the morning - luxe travel for sure :-)

We did the same for a recent trip with overnight international flight...then our flight times were shifted late enough that it wouldn't have mattered, but additional peace of mind is definitely worth a few extra $.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Another Reader on April 23, 2024, 05:14:54 PM

Good job, @Dicey!  I paid too much last tax year and this one.  I can't find any property to buy that makes sense and mortgage rates make the numbers worse.  Grrrr...

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 23, 2024, 06:12:28 PM

I’m bougie economy-floor foot sling, the face cushion you blow up, drugs to knock me out, and a lumbar  pillow. I’m also 5’7” and 150, so not “that” big, and the neck pillow with noise canceling headphones. I probably would put a day in between legs of a 24 hour travel and add an extra week of hotels for the $1K per ticket cost.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: jeroly on April 24, 2024, 06:35:23 AM

Quote from: jeroly on April 23, 2024, 06:36:33 AM

Quote from: couponvan on April 23, 2024, 06:29:26 AM

@2sk22 how long was the flight? I am usually in the “economy flight for luxury rooms” camp because flight times are short and business class isn’t “that” much better than economy.

It's around 24 hours from the east coast to get there - maybe a bit less if you get a nonstop to Singapore (pricier ticket) and get a good connection for the 2+ hour flight to Jakarta.  My return via Jeddah left at 1:20pm EDT and arrived at 3:10pm the next day and included a three hour layover.  The other times I've been there I had traveled via Tokyo and it was about the same travel time.

ETA: Oops, sorry, @couponvan , thought you were asking about the flight of @2sk22 to Indonesia, I forgot about the earlier post...

Quote from: 2sk22 on April 23, 2024, 06:19:25 AM

This reminded me - I visited Indonesia back in 1989 and had a wonderful time. I took the day train from Jakarta to Bandung which was over air-conditioned like you mentioned and shivered in a T-shirt. Apart from Java, I also visited Padang on the west coast of Sumatra and Bali (of course).

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Car Jack on April 30, 2024, 04:16:23 PM

So I thought this might be funny to tell.

What would you think the OP of this thread who is now retired with around $4.4M and paid off everything does?  Well, I was at our local Habitat for Humanity ReStore and they had a 10 cent sale on all media.  So I went in with my phone and a box and went through their CDs one by one on my decluttr app (they buy this stuff).  When the box was full and I was done with doing this, I brought my 39 CDs to the counter, paid about $4 with tax and then got the label and mailed these to decluttr for $21 to me.

Exciting, eh?  I like doing stuff like this and figured some of you do too.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: couponvan on April 30, 2024, 06:23:54 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on April 30, 2024, 04:16:23 PM

So I thought this might be funny to tell.

What would you think the OP of this thread who is now retired with around $4.4M and paid off everything does?  Well, I was at our local Habitat for Humanity ReStore and they had a 10 cent sale on all media.  So I went in with my phone and a box and went through their CDs one by one on my decluttr app (they buy this stuff).  When the box was full and I was done with doing this, I brought my 39 CDs to the counter, paid about $4 with tax and then got the label and mailed these to decluttr for $21 to me.

Exciting, eh?  I like doing stuff like this and figured some of you do too.

Penny wise….but you had fun! I do this silly stuff too. A penny saved is a penny earned.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Dicey on April 30, 2024, 07:59:52 PM

Quote from: Car Jack on April 30, 2024, 04:16:23 PM

So I thought this might be funny to tell.

What would you think the OP of this thread who is now retired with around $4.4M and paid off everything does?  Well, I was at our local Habitat for Humanity ReStore and they had a 10 cent sale on all media.  So I went in with my phone and a box and went through their CDs one by one on my decluttr app (they buy this stuff).  When the box was full and I was done with doing this, I brought my 39 CDs to the counter, paid about $4 with tax and then got the label and mailed these to decluttr for $21 to me.

Exciting, eh?  I like doing stuff like this and figured some of you do too.

Badass!

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: pecunia on May 02, 2024, 08:23:20 AM

Quote from: Car Jack on April 30, 2024, 04:16:23 PM

So I thought this might be funny to tell.

What would you think the OP of this thread who is now retired with around $4.4M and paid off everything does?  Well, I was at our local Habitat for Humanity ReStore and they had a 10 cent sale on all media.  So I went in with my phone and a box and went through their CDs one by one on my decluttr app (they buy this stuff).  When the box was full and I was done with doing this, I brought my 39 CDs to the counter, paid about $4 with tax and then got the label and mailed these to decluttr for $21 to me.

Exciting, eh?  I like doing stuff like this and figured some of you do too.

I wish my local Restore sold CDs.  Isn't it just kind of fun to find "diamonds in the rough?"  It's a little like gold mining and finding a nugget.

Title: Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
Post by: Fomerly known as something on May 02, 2024, 04:08:41 PM

I don’t do thrift store.  Mainly because I’m not interested in the whole treasure hunt thing.  I don’t even really like places like TJMaxx.  I’m more of the I need black pants, go find them quickly type of person.  And if I know a brand I like and I can quickly go there even better.