call out bigotry every time I encounter it on this forum or in IRL interactions

[dandarc]

Edit: Bold because read this first. After more or less unanimous feedback, the idea presented below is deemed by myself in addition to everyone else as horrible. Title changed per other posters suggestions, doesn't really reflect what I'm trying to do, but not as incendiary as original title which you can see on first X responses if you want to. I have a general policy of not deleting (particularly other posters writing) simply because I've written something stupid - so stupid idea remains, just know that it is pretty fucking stupid. Not going to go through and retitle every post I can here, but appears that at least the title on first post is the one that people see in the search results / listings, so hopefully this change reduces whatever harm was being done out of that.

My wife and I were talking today about how we both were not directly confrontational enough when talking with a particularly bigoted individual whom we've both had direct conversations with recently. I need to work on that - I need to be able to call bullshit when I see it, and of course that is easier to do online than in person, so I'm going to start making this forum part of my practice.

To that end - where exactly is the line on calling out things that you have good reason to think really need to be called out vs. just being an ass? I submit that if you're not close enough to the line to at least once in a while get a mod-edit here, you're too low on the confrontation meter - too willing to simply ignore stuff that should not be ignored (I'm very guilty of this - I might even clear out my ignore list entirely as a part of this exercise. Will require discipline to say what needs to be said and just move along, for me anyway). Mods here, volunteers that they are, certainly have to look at posts more or less in a vacuum. If, even quite often lacking full context, you never get called on your language officially, how much do you really believe in what you're writing when countering another's claim?

So - my goal is getting a little more aggressive in countering things that need to be countered. I was mod-edited on the following dates:

November 12th, 2021 - pretty much was just being an ass this time.
March 25th, 2021 - I stand by this one - someone asking for specific tax consequences about a possible decision they might make and being countered with "what about morals . . ." is just not OK on this forum in particular, where we are often well-off people openly discussing taking advantage of so many strategies to get government-provided monetary benefits. Just reeks of privilege to even ask that question on that thread. That person deserved to be called out immediately and directly and I'm glad I did it with language that was . . . brief enough to get the mods involved.



and the challenge is to step this up to a quarterly occurrence. I doubt many will join me in this challenge, but if you do, please post here, along with your assessment of what you thought of the moderation decision. Should anyone participating in this thread get banned, I'll open a poll (assuming I haven't been banned myself) about the banning and where the group thinks the banning falls in terms of reasonability - I'd assumed any banning is well-earned, given how difficult it is to achieve that here if you're not obviously a spam-bot. But was it a righteous banning or a "just an ass" banning?

[nereo]

To that end - where exactly is the line on calling out things that you have good reason to think really need to be called out vs. just being an ass? I submit that if you're not close enough to the line to at least once in a while get a mod-edit here, you're too low on the confrontation meter - too willing to simply ignore stuff that should not be ignored (I'm very guilty of this - I might even clear out my ignore list entirely as a part of this exercise. Will require discipline to say what needs to be said and just move along, for me anyway). Mods here, volunteers that they are, certainly have to look at posts more or less in a vacuum. If, even quite often lacking full context, you never get called on your language officially, how much do you really believe in what you're writing when countering another's claim?

To me the lines seem pretty distinct.  They’re spelled out in the forum rules:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-rules/

With rare exception, getting a ‘mod-edit’ (IME) isn’t some badge of honor, but denotes that you’ve crossed over from defending your position in a good-faith discussion to writing something that merely makes people angry without contributing anything constructive. One can argue passionately on this forum without ever triggering a mod-edit, as long as you do so without name calling, ad-hominem attacks or other such actions.

If you make this a quarterly (or more frequent) occurrence I suspect you will be permanently banned before next summer.

[dandarc]

To that end - where exactly is the line on calling out things that you have good reason to think really need to be called out vs. just being an ass? I submit that if you're not close enough to the line to at least once in a while get a mod-edit here, you're too low on the confrontation meter - too willing to simply ignore stuff that should not be ignored (I'm very guilty of this - I might even clear out my ignore list entirely as a part of this exercise. Will require discipline to say what needs to be said and just move along, for me anyway). Mods here, volunteers that they are, certainly have to look at posts more or less in a vacuum. If, even quite often lacking full context, you never get called on your language officially, how much do you really believe in what you're writing when countering another's claim?

To me the lines seem pretty distinct.  They’re spelled out in the forum rules:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-rules/

With rare exception, getting a ‘mod-edit’ (IME) isn’t some badge of honor, but denotes that you’ve crossed over from defending your position in a good-faith discussion to writing something that merely makes people angry without contributing anything constructive. One can argue passionately on this forum without ever triggering a mod-edit, as long as you do so without name calling, ad-hominem attacks or other such actions.

If you make this a quarterly (or more frequent) occurrence I suspect you will be permanently banned before next summer.

I doubt I'll be able to pull this off, but I am going try - I did delete my ignore list as I've been ignoring misinformation and posters with an axe to grind and nothing to back up their reasoning for too long.

Just as an example - this latest mod edit was for a post where I called a new, somewhat prolific, poster a jackass who is just posting on this forum to try to drive clicks to their own blog and needed to hit that 100 post threshold to do it in the permitted way via the sig line, and was too lazy to figure out what the Top Is In thread is really about these days. I actually explained pretty damn well directly in the post my reasoning before using the term "jackass" in the modded post.

In a vacuum, I'm indeed just being a jerk with that post - even called it that way in my post-game analysis. But did you read this whole thread first? Still think I was just a jerk pointing out why that particular individual is wasting everyone's time? https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mustachianism-around-the-web/mustachian-community-on-medium/msg2926988/#msg2926988

Some people need to be (metaphorically) punched in the face before they'll listen.

[Cannot Wait!]

I dunno, to waste our Mod's time with this, just seems like a dick move to me...

[Morning Glory]

Lol if your thread gets locked that counts as two, right?

[nereo]

[
Some people need to be (metaphorically) punched in the face before they'll listen.

Personally I’ve never found “punching someone in the face” (metaphorically) or name-calling or being otherwise hostile to change anyone’s mind.  Maybe it works on a select few, but I’ve yet to meet them. In my experience such tactics just lead to everyone digging in their heels and the nastiness escalates.

I have seen many people alter their opinion after some extensive, respectful dialogue.  I include myself in that category.

Bottom line - I don’t think your proposed approach to arguments will change hearts and minds, and if you go too far you are likely to be perma-banned. 

[BlueHouse]

Wouldn't it be more effective for you to focus on how to disagree while being polite?  I am darn sure that calling someone a   is the quickest way for you to shut down any possibility you ever had at changing their mind or educating them.  If you actually get someone to like you, they are much more apt to be open to your message.

[Sibley]

Getting mod-edited isn't a good thing. It means you messed up. I think you need to do a bit more research and reflection on what it means to stand up for your beliefs, and what that looks like. I went and read both posts you're referring to. I agree with your assessment on Nov 12th. However, I disagree with your assessment of the March 25. To use your phrasing, you were being an ass.

There are a number of posters on this forum who are excellent at calling out people's BS and they rarely, if ever, get mod edited. I suggest you pay attention to them.

As a point of interest, the most effective dressing downs I've ever seen or received were extremely polite.

[dandarc]

[
Some people need to be (metaphorically) punched in the face before they'll listen.

Personally I’ve never found “punching someone in the face” (metaphorically) or name-calling or being otherwise hostile to change anyone’s mind.  Maybe it works on a select few, but I’ve yet to meet them. In my experience such tactics just lead to everyone digging in their heels and the nastiness escalates.

I have seen many people alter their opinion after some extensive, respectful dialogue.  I include myself in that category.

Bottom line - I don’t think your proposed approach to arguments will change hearts and minds, and if you go too far you are likely to be perma-banned. 

Personally I've never seen "being nice" actually work either. But regardless how you say it, some stuff has to be said because silence perpetuates so many injustices.

I was talking with a person today at virtual coffee hour who actually said "we need to tone it down with the pro-LGBTQ stuff" - this is surprisingly common at an ostensibly very liberal church with people who talk the talk all the time. I was nice to them today, as I have been every time this person has said this crap, as well as every other person who has been on with this person in the past. Always hedging, not calling obvious bigotry what it is - I've actually probably helped out big time in how I wrote that, was much more offensive. That heart and mind has not changed.

Actually this worrying more about tone than the content of the message is a tool of oppression that we all get taught over and over again from when we're very young. Being polite, so often, is actually being extremely unkind.

So getting back to why I'm doing this - I actually need to be able to say "I'm getting pretty tired of hearing your bigoted opinions" to the person mentioned above, in person or at least on a video call. Problem - my baseline is always "quiet" for a lot of reasons. My wife calls me the most introverted person she's ever met. So I have to work on this - there are things that need to be said that way too often I don't say. Even here, I have at least as many posts written but un-posted as actual posts. So I need to actually say what needs to be said more. If I'm serious about that, that means more posts with less-edited content, and that means I'm going to sometimes cross the line, particularly before I get much better practiced at it. So the "mod-edits" is a proxy for "are you trying hard enough to do better with speaking up when that is needed?"

I'm not proposing a "who can be the biggest jerk" contest - more "can you write what needs to be said often enough?" And I'm sure I'll fail on this and I'll have to re-launch this effort many times - it is counter to my core personality, but it is also very important as I find myself in an ever more privileged and powerful position, which is pretty much inevitable when you follow the basic path laid out on this forum.

[maizefolk]

Is there a way to easily search to see what posts, if any, of ones have been mod edited?

I don't always go back through threads that get heated. Not sure if I've had edits and, if so, when and for what.

[Sibley]

Is there a way to easily search to see what posts, if any, of ones have been mod edited?

I don't always go back through threads that get heated. Not sure if I've had edits and, if so, when and for what.

I don't know, but I also don't think you have many. You aren't one of the people I expect to be nasty.

[Sibley]

Um, Dandaric, I'm actually MORE concerned now. You seem to have it in your head that in order to speak your mind you will be rude or unkind. That's wrong. I get that you're introverted, and probably socially awkward. But frankly, at this point, you're starting to tell me who you are and I'm not liking what I'm seeing.

Being cruel to be kind isn't kindness, it's just cruelty. If you can't manage to "say what needs to be said" in a way that doesn't get you in trouble with the mods, then you are 100% in the wrong and you will have earned the ban that's coming down the line.

There are ways to push back on all the -isms that don't make you a social pariah, that aren't rude or nasty, but are effective. There are ways to tell the old ladies at church that they're full of shit without saying they're full of shit AND that will hopefully help make things better. Example: bless your heart. It's perfectly polite, it seems nice and friendly, but it can be a deadly insult.

I recommend that you go read CaptainAwkward.com. Likely all of it. I suspect that there's much that will be helpful to you.

edit: typo that completely changed what I meant to say. I'm going to bed, clearly I'm tired.

[dandarc]

Ok, ok this was a bad idea on a bad day - I don't often pay the forum anywhere near this much on Sundays but for reasons I had to be home but quiet all day today. Apologies to all. 

[Morning Glory]

I sort of get the point of this: there's a balancing act between speaking your mind with confidence and being seen as rude. This comes naturally for some but not others. For those of us for whom it doesn't, it's easier to err on the side of not bothering,  for fear of causing offense. Dandarc is proposing an idea of using the forum as a safe space for practicing confidence. Not a bad idea, although it could have been worded better.

-someone who has never mastered the art of the polite takedown

[Morning Glory]

Ok, ok this was a bad idea on a bad day - I don't often pay the forum anywhere near this much on Sundays but for reasons I had to be home but quiet all day today. Apologies to all.

Looks like we were typing at the same time. 

[Metalcat]

I sort of get the point of this: there's a balancing act between speaking your mind with confidence and being seen as rude. This comes naturally for some but not others. For those of us for whom it doesn't, it's easier to err on the side of not bothering,  for fear of causing offense. Dandarc is proposing an idea of using the forum as a safe space for practicing confidence. Not a bad idea, although it could have been worded better.

-someone who has never mastered the art of the polite takedown

There's a HUGE difference between assertively speaking your mind and being an asshole and getting mod-edited.

There's an even BIGGER difference between accidentally crossing a line and purposefully trying to break rules to get mod-edited. That's just being extra douchy because it's making work for our mods who are volunteers.

I agree with you that this is a great place to practice being confrontational and learning to refine your messaging and to not be so afraid of pissing people off, but framing it as trying to break the rules is just so wrong, and demonstrates a critical lack of understanding how to engage in healthy conflict.

I've been here for years being directly confrontational, see this very post, and I'm not breaking any rules. I made an entire career of politely yelling at people for being stupid. It's a learnable skill.

If OP really, genuinely wants to work on their constructive confrontation skills, then the best bet would be to start a thread asking for recommendations of expert resources on healthy conflict, because plenty of them exist.

This whole theme of trying to get mod-edited and courting getting banned (see the why was I banned thread) though is just a strange way to go and seems a little unhinged.

[dandarc]

The problem is not knowledge but practice. In the moment practice is different than reading yet another book or website on the topic.

[SwordGuy]

[
Some people need to be (metaphorically) punched in the face before they'll listen.

Personally I’ve never found “punching someone in the face” (metaphorically) or name-calling or being otherwise hostile to change anyone’s mind.  Maybe it works on a select few, but I’ve yet to meet them. In my experience such tactics just lead to everyone digging in their heels and the nastiness escalates.

I have seen many people alter their opinion after some extensive, respectful dialogue.  I include myself in that category.

Bottom line - I don’t think your proposed approach to arguments will change hearts and minds, and if you go too far you are likely to be perma-banned. 

Personally I've never seen "being nice" actually work either. But regardless how you say it, some stuff has to be said because silence perpetuates so many injustices.

I was talking with a person today at virtual coffee hour who actually said "we need to tone it down with the pro-LGBTQ stuff" - this is surprisingly common at an ostensibly very liberal church with people who talk the talk all the time. I was nice to them today, as I have been every time this person has said this crap, as well as every other person who has been on with this person in the past. Always hedging, not calling obvious bigotry what it is - I've actually probably helped out big time in how I wrote that, was much more offensive. That heart and mind has not changed.

Actually this worrying more about tone than the content of the message is a tool of oppression that we all get taught over and over again from when we're very young. Being polite, so often, is actually being extremely unkind.

So getting back to why I'm doing this - I actually need to be able to say "I'm getting pretty tired of hearing your bigoted opinions" to the person mentioned above, in person or at least on a video call. Problem - my baseline is always "quiet" for a lot of reasons. My wife calls me the most introverted person she's ever met. So I have to work on this - there are things that need to be said that way too often I don't say. Even here, I have at least as many posts written but un-posted as actual posts. So I need to actually say what needs to be said more. If I'm serious about that, that means more posts with less-edited content, and that means I'm going to sometimes cross the line, particularly before I get much better practiced at it. So the "mod-edits" is a proxy for "are you trying hard enough to do better with speaking up when that is needed?"

I'm not proposing a "who can be the biggest jerk" contest - more "can you write what needs to be said often enough?" And I'm sure I'll fail on this and I'll have to re-launch this effort many times - it is counter to my core personality, but it is also very important as I find myself in an ever more privileged and powerful position, which is pretty much inevitable when you follow the basic path laid out on this forum.

"I thought you might want to know that statements like you just made make you sound like a closet bigot.   I'm sure you just misspoke."

See how easy it is.   

Those two sentences transmit many messages:

1) You just said something bigoted.
2) I don't like what you said.
3) You might want to watch what you say and how you say it or it could cause you harm.
4) I'm being nice and giving you a graceful way out.
5) If you don't take the graceful way out and shut the fuck up with your bigotry, then you know where I stand on it, and further comments like it might not be treated as nicely.

If they challenge you on it, just say, "I've tried to be nice and make you aware of how what you just said might be received by others.  How you act in the future is up to you."  That's all you need to say if they get defensive.

[Adventine]

Posts that are so aggressive and confrontational that they require mod edits are not an ideal to aspire to.


As others have said, there are ways to be honest and to call someone out without breaking forum rules.



Don't make the mods' job harder than it already is, and don't bring down the level of discourse on the forum.

[RetiredAt63]

Posts that are so aggressive and confrontational that they require mod edits are not an ideal to aspire to.


As others have said, there are ways to be honest and to call someone out without breaking forum rules.



Don't make the mods' job harder than it already is, and don't bring down the level of discourse on the forum.

And threads that get sidetracked into vitriol usually end up getting shut down.

Channel your inner Miss Manners - be polite but firm.  Sword Guy gave a lovely example.  To those who are polite but firm, rudeness is seen as a weakness, an inability to say what you want to say politely but firmly.

[dandarc]

Posts that are so aggressive and confrontational that they require mod edits are not an ideal to aspire to.


As others have said, there are ways to be honest and to call someone out without breaking forum rules.



Don't make the mods' job harder than it already is, and don't bring down the level of discourse on the forum.

And threads that get sidetracked into vitriol usually end up getting shut down.

Channel your inner Miss Manners - be polite but firm.  Sword Guy gave a lovely example.  To those who are polite but firm, rudeness is seen as a weakness, an inability to say what you want to say politely but firmly.

Honestly, I find Swordguy's 2nd sentence terrible - I'd be much more insulted than if someone called me an asshole or whatever than if someone said they thought I misspoke when everyone in the room knows I did not. If I really think someone may have misspoken, asking for clarification seems better than assuming they didn't mean what they said.

And still missing the point (I agree this idea of tracking mod-edit stats is a bad idea - as I fully admitted upthread), but the fact is the problem for me, and at least one other poster as well from reading all of this, is not knowledge but practice. Given time, it is ridiculously easy to come up with good words to say to convey thoughts. Doing it in real-time is much more difficult, but you lose alot of impact when delayed, plus tends to give space for more not so great ideas to come out.

[maizefolk]

The phrasing can be different but the key point from that example is to give people a face saving option to retreat from the position you are disagreeing with without explicitly labelling themselves as a bad person in the process.

In my experience if your goal is to get people to change their behavior this works much better than the explicit call out (e.g. "What you said is bad, and that makes you a bad person, and you should be ashamed of yourself.") where people's options are either 1) "You're right I'm a terrible person." or 2) Get angry and attack you for saying they're a bad person, ending with them more entrenched in the views you disagree with than when you started.

Other posters on the forum either have had different personal experiences or have different desired outcomes* in confronting people they disagree with, so their approach and advice will often be different from mine.

*For example: 1) An explicit call out will succeed at getting a small proportion of people to completely re-evaluate their worldview in a way face saving approaches to getting people to change their behavior generally will not. 2) An explicit call out may do a better job of shocking/frightening bystanders and get THEM to change their behavior. 3) An explicit call out is more likely to provoke angry/irrational responses which might help convincing people observing your ineraction that the position that other person is arguing for is not a reasonable one.

[nereo]

And still missing the point (I agree this idea of tracking mod-edit stats is a bad idea - as I fully admitted upthread), but the fact is the problem for me, and at least one other poster as well from reading all of this, is not knowledge but practice. Given time, it is ridiculously easy to come up with good words to say to convey thoughts. Doing it in real-time is much more difficult, but you lose alot of impact when delayed, plus tends to give space for more not so great ideas to come out.

Ok... but two points here:
1) your thread title remains "get mod-edited once per quarter".  If that's no longer your goal, perhaps that can be updated to reflect what your challenge is actually about

2) this is an online forum.  one does not need to come up with responses "in real time" - and truth be told my absolute favorite posts are typically written by those who deliberately take time to write detailed responses. Not coincidentally, those are the responses which tend to wind up in the "best thread I saw today..."

Over the years I've had to deliberately stop myself from immediately responding to some post that I disagree with, and to carefully consider what I was objecting to, where we might find areas of agreement and how my response might best be received.  I'd like to think I've had at least occasional success by doing so, but I am also certain I've avoided vitriolic responses by taking a more deliberate approach. 

[dandarc]

Actually, I think mod-edit is a terrible indicator of being a jerk. Far more accurate is "did I immediately get defensive about the interaction / my "problematic" post".

I.E. I actually do know when I did or said something wrong pretty much immediately. That's why back in March I felt no need to respond to either the modding or the one poster that took umbrage with how I said it. That needed to be said, and other posters covered the "be nice about it" part in that case. Showing just how offensive the idea presented was had merit there - whether for the individual or the crowd as the case may be. Suppose I could have done better by quoting the bad idea, but I'd have used exactly the same words even with 8 months to think about it.

Whereas this time, dude just rubbed me the wrong way, and had actually been ignored successfully once, but not the 2nd time. I knew pretty much immediately I shouldn't have written what I wrote the way I did, and that's ultimately why I engaged further - pissing matches happen because both parties are pissed off.

And you think I haven't had to stop myself both before and shortly after the fact ever on this forum? I do that all the damn time - even when the decision has nothing to do with "am I being too much of a jerk if I post this". Often have my carefully written post finally ready, only to find someone beat me to the punch with an even better statement of the exact same ideas. Title changed on this response - not clear if it changes all upthread and frankly I don't care enough to find out a way to do that if it doesn't.

[nessness]

How about "call out bigotry every time I encounter it on this forum or in IRL interactions"? That seems like a more worthy goal, though harder to quantity.

[dandarc]

How about "call out bigotry every time I encounter it on this forum or in IRL interactions"? That seems like a more worthy goal, though harder to quantity.

That is better.

[dandarc]

So editing first post seems to change title that shows up in listing. That's actually way more specific than I have in mind, but whatever, hard to quantify indeed.

[Captain FIRE]

I've been here for years being directly confrontational, see this very post, and I'm not breaking any rules. I made an entire career of politely yelling at people for being stupid. It's a learnable skill.

Ha, you were one of the handful of people I thought about when reading the OP, that:
1) Confronts people
2) In a polite way
3) That even sometimes gets people to rethink things (me included).

OP, another way to learn to speak up is to find some controversial threads and read it through, paying attention to which posters induced change (or thought) in any other posters and how they did it.  I'm guessing it's rarely if ever going to be those who are rude.  You can then practice the tools you observed were effective - was it humor?  sarcasm?  rudeness?  politeness?  respectful?  gentle?  direct?  story telling (personal experience shared)? etc.

Also depending on the issue (e.g. if it's biogtry), please note you can flag items for the mods to address.

[dandarc]

That's a bold move to increase the post count ;)

[Villanelle]

I didn't comment originally for reasons that have been covered.

With the new direction, I will offer this.  A message board can be a great way to practice that polite confrontation, because you can take a moment to compose your thoughts, type a response, reread and edit (repeatedly as needed), and only when you are satisfied do you need to share the response.  Unlike IRL when you usually have about 1 second to respond.  So this can be a great training wheels environment. But that is going to work best if you tend to take all the steps I mentioned, especially at first. 

For the lady at church, I'd likely go with one of my standard responses.  (I too am anxious, introverted, and inclined to avoid ALL confrontation, even when it is not healthy or helpful to do so.  So I find what have a few standard scripts serves me quite well because I don't have to think quickly.)  In this case, I'd likely start with the very easy but very effective "Why?"  That's it.  She says we need to talk less about LGBTQIA+, and I turn to her and with no meanness in my tone just say, "Why?"  If forces her to see that her thought is not universal, nor is it going to be given a pass.  It also usually forces her to articulate the icky thoughts that lead to the comment, which often has the effect of making sure everyone sees how icky they are, without me having to do the heavy lifting to get them there.  If she demurs with  "oh, you know" or "never mind" or similar, a "No, I really want to know and understand. Why do you think we need to 'tone down the LGBTQ stuff?"  Again, it doesn't let her off the hook, but it also doesn't require me to be especially confrontational.  Depending on her response to that, I might state why I disagree, or let it go if she's already shown her ass sufficiently or has retreated, or take some other approach as necessary.  But the "Why?" gets it started without me having to think on my feet, and often leads to somewhat of a resolution (as much as such a thing can be resolved) without me having to come up with a perfect response on the fly. Overall it is an effective strategy/response and one that works very well for my conflict-averse personality.

Similarly, "why is that funny" is great for most offensive jokes.

And the larger strategy of just having a few canned responses that you can go to even when you are anxious and frazzled may be really helpful for you, especially when all this is new.  It's incredibly helpful for me, and many different situations.  Of course you can't be prepared for every situation you might encounter, but you can be for many of the most common ones. 

[BlueHouse]

Hey @dandarc ,
It sounds as if you stay introverted and keep quiet until you want to scream, and that could be why you may think that you'll need to be rude to speak your mind.  I'm similar.  I stay quiet way too long and then there's danger of explosion and then it comes out wrong and I look like the a$$. 

You said above that reading another book won't help, but I think you might give it another try.  There have been a few that have helped me get my head around things I've been thinking but don't really know how to verbalize without getting angry.  I've recently read Caste and finally understood why you don't really want to call people bigots or racists (they don't see themselves that way).  You can re-frame and start teaching them instead.  I've also recently read "Rage becomes her" which helped me understand a lot about the anger I keep inside and how I've been socialized to keep it that way.  I'd recommend both of these books and I'm sure there are many others that can help you to practice words and phrases to use in the instant that can get your point across without blowing up or offending unnecessarily.  And if it's still necessary to offend (sometimes it is), then you can learn how to do it so everyone around you recognizes the other guy as the a$$h0le. 

[Morning Glory]

@Villanelle I like your suggestions of saying "why do you think that's funny" or just "why"

Many people don't realize that I was not born in the US and have dual citizenship with another country, so I've called a lot of people on their bullshit by saying "you do know that I wasn't born here, right?" or "huh, my dad paid taxes the entire time he lived here even though he wasn't a citizen" when I hear anti-immigration sentiment and misinformation.

For other types of bigotry I don't have an easy answer. I'm still working up the courage to call out my mom for being transphobic.  If she wasn't my mom I would have said something sooner.  This is my goal for when we go and visit for Thanksgiving, if I overhear anything.

[dandarc]

"Why?" - I like that one. Easy to remember, and actually I also need to get a lot better at asking questions in conversation. I do feel like shying away from these conversations is not a good way for a board member to act, even if I'm just in charge of the money on paper, but asking others to explain it sounds like something achievable for me.

Also hit the nail on the head there @BlueHouse - that's certainly a lot of what's going on. I also get a lot of reinforcement when I try to bring up smaller stuff that just shutting up and dealing with "X" is the way to do it. Like at home the answer to "why'd you do X?" is actually known now - "ADHD" - and I really do need to not ask that question too often. Haven't quite found the way to help my wife with creating structure / mechanisms to better manage everything (I need more of this myself as well truthfully), but we're working on it. This might sound awful, but I need to get a whole day pretty much every week where I'm home and wife is out of the house - the rage cleaning actually is almost a spiritual practice for me letting all that stuff out with nobody around to hear it except the cats who don't care so long as they get fed on time.

That's a bold move to increase the post count ;)

Damn - joke ruined when duplicate post was deleted.

[dandarc]

@Villanelle I like your suggestions of saying "why do you think that's funny" or just "why"

Many people don't realize that I was not born in the US and have dual citizenship with another country, so I've called a lot of people on their bullshit by saying "you do know that I wasn't born here, right?" or "huh, my dad paid taxes the entire time he lived here even though he wasn't a citizen" when I hear anti-immigration sentiment and misinformation.

For other types of bigotry I don't have an easy answer. I'm still working up the courage to call out my mom for being transphobic.  If she wasn't my mom I would have said something sooner.  This is my goal for when we go and visit for Thanksgiving, if I overhear anything.

I've been on the receiving end of this - a couple of times really stick out in my mind, that are both now 10-20 years behind me. People who were more directly affected telling me the truth about whatever stupid thing I said - really important moments in my life. And that burden should not fall as heavily as it does on those directly impacted. So thank you for doing that - it is important.

[Morning Glory]

@Villanelle I like your suggestions of saying "why do you think that's funny" or just "why"

Many people don't realize that I was not born in the US and have dual citizenship with another country, so I've called a lot of people on their bullshit by saying "you do know that I wasn't born here, right?" or "huh, my dad paid taxes the entire time he lived here even though he wasn't a citizen" when I hear anti-immigration sentiment and misinformation.

For other types of bigotry I don't have an easy answer. I'm still working up the courage to call out my mom for being transphobic.  If she wasn't my mom I would have said something sooner.  This is my goal for when we go and visit for Thanksgiving, if I overhear anything.

I've been on the receiving end of this - a couple of times really stick out in my mind, that are both now 10-20 years behind me. People who were more directly affected telling me the truth about whatever stupid thing I said - really important moments in my life. And that burden should not fall as heavily as it does on those directly impacted. So thank you for doing that - it is important.

I see very little of this sort of thing on the forum, although we might not hang around in the same threads. I think if there's something you would only be comfortable saying around people that you believe are not in whatever group you are talking about, then it's probably best not to say it at all. On here you don't always know someone's race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. so I think people watch what they say a little more.

Calling out bigotry (or anything you disagree with, really) is more difficult online because anytime you comment in a thread it bumps the thread so more eyeballs land on the original post that you disagreed with. On sites like facebook the algorithm only knows that you interacted with that post, not that you disagreed, so it will start showing you more posts similar to it. It then tells your friends that you commented on that post and shows the original one really big and your comment really small and incomplete, so people who are just idly scrolling will think that you shared the post. I have a lot of family friends hidden on there for this reason, and the sad part is that none of them would be likely to ever say such things in person.  The only way to call people out for posting offensive things on there is to pm them. Even on this forum, the fact that I'm commenting right now is what's bringing this to the top of someone's unread posts list and getting more eyeballs on it.

[GuitarStv]

I've skimmed through this thread.  Can someone send me a link to the the bigotry that precipitated it?

[dandarc]

I've skimmed through this thread.  Can someone send me a link to the the bigotry that precipitated it?

I was asked to change the title - it wasn't even a forum thing with the bigotry that was in the back of my mind when I came up with "mod edits as proxy for me being more confrontational when I should be" (horrible idea BTW). Happened to get mod-edited on Friday (deserved and also something occurred to me just now- I was feverish from covid booster that day. Maybe I just need to not spend time on forum when I feel like shit).

The TL;DR on the conversation that precipitated the turn more towards calling out bigotry in particular is that on virtual church coffee hour in a breakout group of 3, someone who has a reputation on this front (they might not know about, because like I was this time, everyone is usually so nice as to not actually say anything but just steer conversation away) said some trans-phobic stuff that I really should have done a better job confronting in the moment.

[Metalcat]

As someone who also has more than a little difficulty with conflict, I hear you.  It is good to recognize that, and good to resolve not to avoid it. 

A few random thoughts. 

Thought #1:  There are certain lines you just have to not cross when calling someone out, arguing with them, or whatever.  One such line is the use of any sort of vulgar or insulting language.  No matter how justified doing so may be, you always lose points when you do it.  No matter *how* justified.

Now matter how right what you are saying is, how you say it can complete undermine it.

For one, it makes it look like you are losing your cool, a sign of weakness.  And, once you start showing weakness, you're losing. Arguments are not usually won or lost on logic and merits, it's usually a matter of who comes out on top rhetorically and that whole interpersonal dominance thing. The more imperturbable you are, the stronger your position.

For another, it gives the other person something to hang their hat on as a wrong you have dealt them, as a sign of your indecency and poor character.  That's diversion to be sure, but diversion works.

Hold the high ground.

Thought #2:  Never post or say anything when you are losing your cool, even a little.  If you can't say it dispassionately, don't say it.  That's tough on the "say" part since you can't always table the conversation, but you certainly have the ability to do that in online posts.  If your blood pressure is even a little elevated, just take a deep breath and wait.  No matter how measured or how well-justified you are, anything you say when you are irritated or emotional risks betraying you.  And, again, any sign you are losing your cool is taken as weakness.

Thought #3:  Stop giving moderators so much credit.  Moderators are not gods, they are not always fair, and they are not always right.  The umpire does have the final say on balls and strikes, but that doesn't mean they always get the call right.

In any particular incidence, absolutely any moderator may read something in a particularly uncharitable way.  And some moderators are far from fair and impartial no matter what or when.  I have observed interactions in an online FI forum (for obvious reasons not going to get into specifics) where one poster was incredibly rude to another, way way way out of line, the other snapped back in an irritated but measured way, and the moderator took action against the snapback but not against the original rudeness.  It happens. 

If you are regularly being mod-edited, that's probably a sign that something is wrong (whether the problem is you or the forum's mods, if it's happening regularly it's a sign you are in the wrong place.)  But in any given occurrence, it's worth giving the mod enough credit to reflect on how you erred, but it's not necessarily always correct to conclude that you did. 

Thought #4:  Make sure each post stands on its own.  You make mention of reading one of you posts in the context of everything that came before it.  The thing is, context often gets ignored, sometimes unintentionally, sometimes intentionally.  If you say something that comes across badly read on its own, you should assume it will come across badly, and no matter what was said leading up to it, you just won't be successful arguing that it needs to be read in context.  "If you're explaining, you're losing."

That's all I got.  Good luck.

I could not disagree with this more. Profanity is a huge part of how I keep my messaging accessible.

I actually started bringing rude language and profanity into how I spoke to patients, and it magically made many of them feel *more* comfortable. There's a certain way to use profanity to emphasize honesty and earnestness of your message. But that's an entirely different use than utilizing it as verbal violence.

[dandarc]

@Villanelle I like your suggestions of saying "why do you think that's funny" or just "why"

Many people don't realize that I was not born in the US and have dual citizenship with another country, so I've called a lot of people on their bullshit by saying "you do know that I wasn't born here, right?" or "huh, my dad paid taxes the entire time he lived here even though he wasn't a citizen" when I hear anti-immigration sentiment and misinformation.

For other types of bigotry I don't have an easy answer. I'm still working up the courage to call out my mom for being transphobic.  If she wasn't my mom I would have said something sooner.  This is my goal for when we go and visit for Thanksgiving, if I overhear anything.

I've been on the receiving end of this - a couple of times really stick out in my mind, that are both now 10-20 years behind me. People who were more directly affected telling me the truth about whatever stupid thing I said - really important moments in my life. And that burden should not fall as heavily as it does on those directly impacted. So thank you for doing that - it is important.

I see very little of this sort of thing on the forum, although we might not hang around in the same threads. I think if there's something you would only be comfortable saying around people that you believe are not in whatever group you are talking about, then it's probably best not to say it at all. On here you don't always know someone's race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. so I think people watch what they say a little more.

Calling out bigotry (or anything you disagree with, really) is more difficult online because anytime you comment in a thread it bumps the thread so more eyeballs land on the original post that you disagreed with. On sites like facebook the algorithm only knows that you interacted with that post, not that you disagreed, so it will start showing you more posts similar to it. It then tells your friends that you commented on that post and shows the original one really big and your comment really small and incomplete, so people who are just idly scrolling will think that you shared the post. I have a lot of family friends hidden on there for this reason, and the sad part is that none of them would be likely to ever say such things in person.  The only way to call people out for posting offensive things on there is to pm them. Even on this forum, the fact that I'm commenting right now is what's bringing this to the top of someone's unread posts list and getting more eyeballs on it.

It is usually more covert / unconscious than what I'm describing happened in that face-to-face-ish thing usually here on the forum. The posters that do that stuff openly usually quickly get reported and on a short leash, often (not always - maybe there is hope for the world after all) double down instead of changing anything and wind up banned in short order. We did have a whole thread recently where a lot of people threw judgement at taking food benefits vs. stuff like retirement tax savings - it was disheartening to see here really.

[Morning Glory]

OK I just slapped myself in the head because I noticed some unconscious bias the other day and didn't think of it again when I read your post.  It has to do with making assumptions that someone's gender/race/sexual orientation etc is the cultural default, and thus putting the burden on them to correct you.  It's not mean spirited but can be mentally draining nonetheless, to have to decide whether it's worth correcting you, or even safe to do so.

[maizefolk]

OK I just slapped myself in the head because I noticed some unconscious bias the other day and didn't think of it again when I read your post.  It has to do with making assumptions that someone's gender/race/sexual orientation etc is the cultural default, and thus putting the burden on them to correct you.  It's not mean spirited but can be mentally draining nonetheless, to have to decide whether it's worth correcting you, or even safe to do so.

This is one of the things that I really enjoy about this forum: if no one knows other people's gender/race/sexual orientation is provides an outstanding opportunity to practice holding uncertainty in ones head and acting/speaking in ways that don't assume anything about the identity of the person one is interacting with. That opportunity is absent in the real world or increasingly absence in social media which is increasingly non-pseudonymous.