Author Topic: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!  (Read 310729 times)

Metalcat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #950 on: April 16, 2021, 03:10:46 PM »
Thank you all for your support and advice.  It's good to hear it gets better.  And I didn't know it took that long for it to be completely out of your system.  I thought it only took a couple days.  I haven't read The Naked Mind, and my library doesn't have it; is it worth the read or is just signing up for the alcohol experiment enough?   It's not super literal, right?  I truly need my medications and treatment. 

I'll stick with it and see what happens after a month.

I don't know what you mean by literal?

The alcohol experiment doesn't even require that you quit drinking. So you really can't lose trying it. I recommend both the experiment and the book. The book is a super easy read, and the experiment takes, like, 20 minutes a day, and that's putting full effort into it.
The Naked Mind makes me think it's recommending you don't take any mind-altering substances, which isn't really an option for me.  I guess it doesn't mean that if you don't even need to stop drinking.  I'll definitely give the experiment a try.

No, not at all, not even a little bit.

This book wouldn't be so universally supported in this group with so little criticism if it promoted such a radical and dangerous approach.

Some of us have leveled criticism against some of the bullshit pseudo science that Annie talks about, especially with respect to sugar, but beyond that, the book and the experiment are more of a cognitive process for reexamining your relationship with alcohol, and on that front, it is solid.

I personally responded much better to Alan Carr, who doesn't resort to invoking any science, but his style is very harsh, which I respond well to, but most people I think would do better with Annie. Her approach is really an expansion on his with more experts and content, and his is *just* based on reframing your personal perception of alcohol.

Both of them encourage you to keep drinking for the beginning phase of the work.

As others have said, the book and the experiment aren't magic, they don't fix you, they're just a very reliable process to go through designed based on the personal experiences and extensive research of an alcoholic who quit herself and put together and easy to use, curated resource designed to help you rapidly learn the things that a lot of us had to learn through this process.

It's really just a shorthand for the almost universal process of questioning your relationship with alcohol.

Annie is big on full sobriety, but she provides great resources for those who want to try moderation. It's not about dogmatic adherence to abstinence, if it was, I wouldn't be comfortable promoting it.

As wenchsenior has said though, if you are avoiding a resource, it's important to examine why. Sometimes your alcohol brain will do whatever it takes to avoid good help.

mspym

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #951 on: April 16, 2021, 03:14:01 PM »
Thank you all for your support and advice.  It's good to hear it gets better.  And I didn't know it took that long for it to be completely out of your system.  I thought it only took a couple days.  I haven't read The Naked Mind, and my library doesn't have it; is it worth the read or is just signing up for the alcohol experiment enough?   It's not super literal, right?  I truly need my medications and treatment. 

I'll stick with it and see what happens after a month.
There is a fantastically supportive subreddit r/stopdrinking that has excellent resources including a link to a free download of The Naked Mind provided by Annie Grace. I dipped my toe in there for a couple of years before I stopped for good* and I strongly recommend if you are looking for a very active support group in the first few months. If you are on other medications that is a strong indicator to stop drinking as alcohol is often contra-indicated, because of how it interferes with other meds.

*and even this time, I had planned on 1 year but maybe forever and now it's coming up 4 years and it was 💯 the right choice for me.

TheFrenchCat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #952 on: April 16, 2021, 04:13:39 PM »
Thank you all for your support and advice.  It's good to hear it gets better.  And I didn't know it took that long for it to be completely out of your system.  I thought it only took a couple days.  I haven't read The Naked Mind, and my library doesn't have it; is it worth the read or is just signing up for the alcohol experiment enough?   It's not super literal, right?  I truly need my medications and treatment. 

I'll stick with it and see what happens after a month.

I don't know what you mean by literal?

The alcohol experiment doesn't even require that you quit drinking. So you really can't lose trying it. I recommend both the experiment and the book. The book is a super easy read, and the experiment takes, like, 20 minutes a day, and that's putting full effort into it.
The Naked Mind makes me think it's recommending you don't take any mind-altering substances, which isn't really an option for me.  I guess it doesn't mean that if you don't even need to stop drinking.  I'll definitely give the experiment a try.

No, not at all, not even a little bit.

This book wouldn't be so universally supported in this group with so little criticism if it promoted such a radical and dangerous approach.

Some of us have leveled criticism against some of the bullshit pseudo science that Annie talks about, especially with respect to sugar, but beyond that, the book and the experiment are more of a cognitive process for reexamining your relationship with alcohol, and on that front, it is solid.

I personally responded much better to Alan Carr, who doesn't resort to invoking any science, but his style is very harsh, which I respond well to, but most people I think would do better with Annie. Her approach is really an expansion on his with more experts and content, and his is *just* based on reframing your personal perception of alcohol.

Both of them encourage you to keep drinking for the beginning phase of the work.

As others have said, the book and the experiment aren't magic, they don't fix you, they're just a very reliable process to go through designed based on the personal experiences and extensive research of an alcoholic who quit herself and put together and easy to use, curated resource designed to help you rapidly learn the things that a lot of us had to learn through this process.

It's really just a shorthand for the almost universal process of questioning your relationship with alcohol.

Annie is big on full sobriety, but she provides great resources for those who want to try moderation. It's not about dogmatic adherence to abstinence, if it was, I wouldn't be comfortable promoting it.

As wenchsenior has said though, if you are avoiding a resource, it's important to examine why. Sometimes your alcohol brain will do whatever it takes to avoid good help.
Oh, ok good to hear. I'll check it out.  I don't know if I'm avoiding information on alcohol's negative effects.  Kind of hard to tell what my subconscious is doing.  But I signed up for the alcohol experiment and some of her ebooks, and I'm going to try to stick with my original plan. 

LeftA

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #953 on: April 16, 2021, 08:16:56 PM »
@TheFrenchCat , I’m glad you posted here and reached out. The responses you received are pure gold IMO.

I’m just a tiny bit ahead of you...at 13 days. I typically drank one glass of wine most evenings, but Friday late afternoon / early evening, I’d let myself have 2 glasses. So, Friday evenings have been when I have actually craved the wine most since going AF. Today, I just thought of all the negatives and my craving soon eased, then I had some carbonated water with some lemon. I’m still resolute, but haven't made any decisions on a specific length of time - just taking it day by day.

sjlp

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #954 on: April 17, 2021, 12:31:08 AM »
TheFrenchCat, you can do it! Look at what a great job you are already doing: you faced a challenge, examined it reasonably, asked and received support, and took actions in your own best interest. Keep us updated on what you think of the experiment. I think everyone has different learning/motivation styles (like, I love reading books and personal testimonials), but nothing can beat one's own personal experience of living 1 month without alcohol. It provides a basis to analyze and challenge the underlying beliefs that cause destructive behavior. 

LeftA, it's so interesting that humans can rewire their own brains. Like to sense a craving and to change how you react to it. It will only get easier with time as we carve new habits and neural pathways.

Morning Glory

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #955 on: April 18, 2021, 08:08:52 AM »

My husband said he really misses our Sunday afternoon cocktail together. I think the "soft around the edges" feeling actually helps blunt some of his sensory issues with our kids. I might skim the Naked Mind book to see if there is anything useful there for him.

If you find something on this will you please share with me. I didn't become a daily drinker until having children and I think sensory issues due to the noise and chaos are a big trigger for me to crave a drink. My friend has anxiety meds for this purpose but those can be habit forming too so I don't know if I want to go down that road.

Metalcat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #956 on: April 18, 2021, 08:18:49 AM »

My husband said he really misses our Sunday afternoon cocktail together. I think the "soft around the edges" feeling actually helps blunt some of his sensory issues with our kids. I might skim the Naked Mind book to see if there is anything useful there for him.

If you find something on this will you please share with me. I didn't become a daily drinker until having children and I think sensory issues due to the noise and chaos are a big trigger for me to crave a drink. My friend has anxiety meds for this purpose but those can be habit forming too so I don't know if I want to go down that road.

There are a ton of cognitive skills that can produce the exact same calming result as alcohol, since the alcohol itself isn't what causes the calming. That's an internal neurological response to giving in to a craving. The alcohol does nothing in and of itself.

For me though, I found 5 minutes of vigorous physical activity was a great substitute for the feel-good effect of pouring a drink. That really pumps the natural feel good endorphins.

Granted, when I was a drinker, I probably would have laughed in someone's face if they told me to go climb a bunch of flights of stairs instead of having a drink when I feel miserable, overwhelmed, and exhausted. But when I first quit and I was desperate to find *something* that could alter my mood, I was willing to try anything, and it really worked.

Otherwise, mindfulness meditation techniques are excellent, along with many other CBT type cognitive strategies.

Just remember, it's your own mind that creates that sense of relief, not the alcohol, so you don't need to find another psychoactive substances to replace the alcohol, because the alcohol was never the source of the calm in the first place.

The calm comes the second you pour that first glass, and with that first sip. That calm is coming from your own, internal emotions. So that can be replicated without any drug at all.

Morning Glory

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #957 on: April 18, 2021, 10:30:51 AM »
A hot bath is also a nice way to get that warm fuzzy feeling. Removing oneself from the chaos of a house with kids to a relatively quiet space where you can focus on the nice smells and a pleasant tactile experience is calming. My sister, who is a mother to two ebullient kids, pretty much lives in her tub.  Now if  your kids are old enough to be ignored for an hour so that both you and your husband can share the tub, that'd be a whole other tactile experience! (the quality of which depends on the tub size and quality of the door lock)

Haha I do like my jet tub, but I usually just lie in there and read a book to relax. I don't think my husband and I would both fit. He is 6'6" and 350 lbs. Now that it's warmer outside a walk after dinner is a nice way to calm down too.

It is getting through the dinner hour that is the most trouble, since I can't just physically walk away. I don't crave drink earlier in the day and will turn it down on the rare occasion that it is offered at lunchtime. I don't have wine in the house right now and that is helping a lot, since the other things we have just don't sound as appealing.

wenchsenior

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #958 on: April 18, 2021, 11:57:21 AM »
A hot bath is also a nice way to get that warm fuzzy feeling. Removing oneself from the chaos of a house with kids to a relatively quiet space where you can focus on the nice smells and a pleasant tactile experience is calming. My sister, who is a mother to two ebullient kids, pretty much lives in her tub.  Now if  your kids are old enough to be ignored for an hour so that both you and your husband can share the tub, that'd be a whole other tactile experience! (the quality of which depends on the tub size and quality of the door lock)

Haha I do like my jet tub, but I usually just lie in there and read a book to relax. I don't think my husband and I would both fit. He is 6'6" and 350 lbs. Now that it's warmer outside a walk after dinner is a nice way to calm down too.

It is getting through the dinner hour that is the most trouble, since I can't just physically walk away. I don't crave drink earlier in the day and will turn it down on the rare occasion that it is offered at lunchtime. I don't have wine in the house right now and that is helping a lot, since the other things we have just don't sound as appealing.

Earplugs (or earbuds) are a lifesaver for me in all sorts of too-noisy/too-stimulating situations.

LeftA

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #959 on: April 23, 2021, 10:00:00 AM »
20 days AF today. I feel great. That is all.

Metalcat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #960 on: April 23, 2021, 11:02:16 AM »
20 days AF today. I feel great. That is all.

Congrats!

Blissful Biker

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #961 on: April 23, 2021, 03:18:47 PM »
20 days AF today. I feel great. That is all.

I am about the same and also feeling good.  I've been following along with the Naked Mind 30 day Alcohol Experiment, learning a lot and changing my mindset.  It's been far easier than my Dry January that I white knuckled through.  Knowledge is power!

wenchsenior

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #962 on: April 23, 2021, 05:30:51 PM »
Finally made it through the entire thread. Thanks to recommendations here I read This Naked Mind and have started her 30-day challenge. But I'm running into a lot of issues since TNM didn't resonate very much with me. In my younger years I did drink socially, but in the last decade not at all. I mostly just drink at home, by myself, which in and of itself should be a red flag. Early on it was just enjoying a single glass of wine with candles and a nice bubble bath, but progressed to more wine and less of the other relaxation rituals. This means that many of the things recommended by Annie Grace don't make any sense to me, so I'm still trying to figure out how this will work with my own twisted brain.

Hopefully the 30-day Alcohol Experiment will bring me more clarity. I'm also eager to hear from others for whom drinking with friends or in other social situations is not the trigger. In addition, I'm already retired so the work-to-home transition ritual (which wasn't big before) is nonexistent now.

I did the first journaling exercise on "Why/Why Not" to drink and the Why's are puzzling, I already know that alcohol tastes like crap, for me the "Why's" were a lot of things like "To numb my senses" and "Because nobody's going to tell me what to do!" LOL, clearly illogical and immature, so hoping to get to a deeper level. I think in a couple weeks I may re-read The Naked Mind again to see if it makes more sense.

I did drink socially, but that was not my primary trigger. My primary trigger was literally everything about my at-home evening routine. Drinking was absolutely embedded in that routine for 20 years. I did read TNM, but it didn't stick in my head much except for the part about waking up in the middle of the night with anxiety.  The Alcohol Experiment totally worked for me (although of course not every lesson will resonate with every person, and the stuff about social pressure/people pleasing, dating, etc. didn't apply to me).  Other lessons were perfect for me.  Actually DOING the work/journaling stuff was crucial for me to get the most out of it, so I strongly recommend trying to do that.   So ask me (us) anything specific you want, re: being at 'at home/destress/numb out/relaxation' drinker.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 05:32:28 PM by wenchsenior »

jps

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #963 on: April 23, 2021, 05:32:24 PM »
Finally made it through the entire thread. Thanks to recommendations here I read This Naked Mind and have started her 30-day challenge. But I'm running into a lot of issues since TNM didn't resonate very much with me. In my younger years I did drink socially, but in the last decade not at all. I mostly just drink at home, by myself, which in and of itself should be a red flag. Early on it was just enjoying a single glass of wine with candles and a nice bubble bath, but progressed to more wine and less of the other relaxation rituals. This means that many of the things recommended by Annie Grace don't make any sense to me, so I'm still trying to figure out how this will work with my own twisted brain.

Hopefully the 30-day Alcohol Experiment will bring me more clarity. I'm also eager to hear from others for whom drinking with friends or in other social situations is not the trigger. In addition, I'm already retired so the work-to-home transition ritual (which wasn't big before) is nonexistent now.

I did the first journaling exercise on "Why/Why Not" to drink and the Why's are puzzling, I already know that alcohol tastes like crap, for me the "Why's" were a lot of things like "To numb my senses" and "Because nobody's going to tell me what to do!" LOL, clearly illogical and immature, so hoping to get to a deeper level. I think in a couple weeks I may re-read The Naked Mind again to see if it makes more sense.

I was one of those people who wasn't into social drinking and didn't find that as a trigger. Most of my favorite times drinking were in the house by myself, drinking some beers and blasting tunes. I probably would have agreed with the "to numb my senses" reasoning - I think has stuck with me the most, aside from being AF for 4-ish months and just liking how it is, was thinking clearly about and learning more of the negative effects of alcohol. Like, yeah don't tell me what to do society, but also I don't want to give myself cancer by drinking a known carcinogen every night. Stick it to the man! But not when it involves dry-heaving the next morning. That's my take on your post, at least.

wenchsenior

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #964 on: April 23, 2021, 05:50:22 PM »
I was one of those people who wasn't into social drinking and didn't find that as a trigger. Most of my favorite times drinking were in the house by myself, drinking some beers and blasting tunes. I probably would have agreed with the "to numb my senses" reasoning - I think has stuck with me the most, aside from being AF for 4-ish months and just liking how it is, was thinking clearly about and learning more of the negative effects of alcohol. Like, yeah don't tell me what to do society, but also I don't want to give myself cancer by drinking a known carcinogen every night. Stick it to the man! But not when it involves dry-heaving the next morning. That's my take on your post, at least.
Thanks @jps. I'm really struggling with the "I do this all by myself so who cares?" issue. Luckily the dry heaves have been few and far between, more frequent when I was working and had them due to migraines. Come to think of it, having had years of migraines and the nausea that came with those, maybe that's hindering my recovery. I mean, the worst binge-related heaving was nothing compared to what I went through for most of my life. Hmmmmm....

Ha! Same.  I've thrown up as a result of drinking only 2 or 3 times.  I've thrown up from migraines probably upwards of several dozen times (and counting).

Metalcat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #965 on: April 23, 2021, 06:24:18 PM »
Finally made it through the entire thread. Thanks to recommendations here I read This Naked Mind and have started her 30-day challenge. But I'm running into a lot of issues since TNM didn't resonate very much with me. In my younger years I did drink socially, but in the last decade not at all. I mostly just drink at home, by myself, which in and of itself should be a red flag. Early on it was just enjoying a single glass of wine with candles and a nice bubble bath, but progressed to more wine and less of the other relaxation rituals. This means that many of the things recommended by Annie Grace don't make any sense to me, so I'm still trying to figure out how this will work with my own twisted brain.

Hopefully the 30-day Alcohol Experiment will bring me more clarity. I'm also eager to hear from others for whom drinking with friends or in other social situations is not the trigger. In addition, I'm already retired so the work-to-home transition ritual (which wasn't big before) is nonexistent now.

I did the first journaling exercise on "Why/Why Not" to drink and the Why's are puzzling, I already know that alcohol tastes like crap, for me the "Why's" were a lot of things like "To numb my senses" and "Because nobody's going to tell me what to do!" LOL, clearly illogical and immature, so hoping to get to a deeper level. I think in a couple weeks I may re-read The Naked Mind again to see if it makes more sense.

The Naked Mind didn't overly resonate with me, but it lead me to Alan Carr's Easy Way, which definitely resonated. Although, a lot of his points are similar, but I found them quite different.

The 30 day experiment felt kind of hokey and stupid at first, but over time started dredging up some real underlying feelings, which really helped.

wenchsenior

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #966 on: April 23, 2021, 07:18:37 PM »
Ha! Same.  I've thrown up as a result of drinking only 2 or 3 times.  I've thrown up from migraines probably upwards of several dozen times (and counting).
I dunno if that has affected my attitudes about drinking or not. My migraines started in elementary school, I've been well-acquainted with the porcelain god for many decades. Literally remember touring my current house with the realtor and checking whether I had enough room in front of the commode to be comfortable. Thankfully they stopped when I ceased working, but I often wonder how that particular affliction affected my view of my self. May be relevant to alcohol, may not be.

I relate SO MUCH to this.  It's an issue when I travel (several nights sitting upright against hotel bathroom walls trying not to move btwn pukes) and esp if I'm staying at anyone's house that has too few bathrooms or available bathrooms too close to the hosts bedroom (ugh). 

brooklynmoney

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #967 on: April 23, 2021, 09:04:22 PM »
I’m at 100+ days with no booze. I think I’m at the replacement stage so now when I want to relax or reward myself I drink these help seltzer drinks. They are $4 a can ouch! Haha. Not very Mustachian. I wish I could get the ones with THC in them.

TheFrenchCat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #968 on: April 24, 2021, 09:11:10 AM »
So last night was the planned exception I had, and part of me wishes I hadn't drank because I feel awful today, but I do think I learned a lot.  I actually noticed a couple times that I didn't really like how it tasted, but I kept drinking anyways.  Also, the company accidentally sent us more drinks than we expected and I just kept drinking beyond what I had planned.  So I'm thinking I may not be capable of drinking moderately like I keep telling myself I can do.  I see other people just have one or two drinks and I tell myself I can do that too, but I almost never do.  And I did wake up in the middle of the night like Annie talks about, so I'm pretty tired today.  It was a fun night, but that probably would've been the same without the alcohol.  Some of my friends didn't get the cocktails and just had ice cream instead, and they seemed to have fun. 

So I don't know what to do next.  I'm thinking of restarting my month without alcohol so I actually go a whole month without drinking at all.  I think I'm having a hard time envisioning my life completely alcohol free.  There's definitely some social situations where I'm expected to drink that I'd have to learn to deal with. 

I really appreciate all the advice, support and encouragement I've received here, and it definitely helped me stick to my goal.  I did notice this past week was easier to not drink, despite a lot of stressful situations cropping up.  I don't know; maybe it's worth it to try to completely quit drinking?

Metalcat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #969 on: April 24, 2021, 10:13:26 AM »
So last night was the planned exception I had, and part of me wishes I hadn't drank because I feel awful today, but I do think I learned a lot.  I actually noticed a couple times that I didn't really like how it tasted, but I kept drinking anyways.  Also, the company accidentally sent us more drinks than we expected and I just kept drinking beyond what I had planned.  So I'm thinking I may not be capable of drinking moderately like I keep telling myself I can do.  I see other people just have one or two drinks and I tell myself I can do that too, but I almost never do.  And I did wake up in the middle of the night like Annie talks about, so I'm pretty tired today.  It was a fun night, but that probably would've been the same without the alcohol.  Some of my friends didn't get the cocktails and just had ice cream instead, and they seemed to have fun. 

So I don't know what to do next.  I'm thinking of restarting my month without alcohol so I actually go a whole month without drinking at all.  I think I'm having a hard time envisioning my life completely alcohol free.  There's definitely some social situations where I'm expected to drink that I'd have to learn to deal with. 

I really appreciate all the advice, support and encouragement I've received here, and it definitely helped me stick to my goal.  I did notice this past week was easier to not drink, despite a lot of stressful situations cropping up.  I don't know; maybe it's worth it to try to completely quit drinking?

Don't worry about envisioning your life alcohol free, just envision your life where you have whatever relationship with alcohol that's best for you. Most of us only decide to be alcohol free because we get to a point where we really, really don't want to drink again, not because we have to do this.

At this point, you don't have a healthy relationship with drinking. Okay, fine, take your time. You can't totally reconstruct your neural patterns with alcohol in just a couple of weeks.

Try doing the full 30 days, then go from there. Nothing says you need to commit to forever. I'm not committed to forever, I'll start drinking again the moment I truly feel I want alcohol back in my life. I just don't see that as a likely thing to happen because I'm no longer interested in it.

I used to drink wine every day and I used to wear high heels every day. Now that I wear running shoes and don't drink, my body is so much happier. I don't avoid high heels because they're bad, or I feel like I can't. I avoid them because they hurt and I don't find them fun anymore. Same with booze. I basically grew out of it during my sober time.

As long as you still drink, you can't grow out of it.

So give yourself a sober period to figure out how much it really matters to you. If it does really matter to have alcohol in your future, then take a decent stretch sober to recalibrate your brain. If you're serious about becoming a moderate drinker, you will need to be sober for longer than 30 days to change your neural patterns. It's very doable though, so don't feel like this is all or nothing.

It's not about quitting, it's about regaining control over your own habits.

DH drank as much as I did and he still drinks occasionally. He can now easily have 2 drinks every once in awhile and has no issues. I probably could too, but I don't want to.


Cassie

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #970 on: April 24, 2021, 10:56:18 AM »
I have 3 graduate degrees in social work, psychology and vocational rehabilitation and research has shown that most people that drink too much actually can’t be moderate drinkers. They can for awhile and then they end up back on the hamster wheel. I haven’t looked at the research lately.  I joined the naked mind forum and everyone that has tried has failed. It doesn’t mean you are a alcoholic but it does mean you are a substance abuser. People without problems can easily change their relationship with alcohol, don’t spend lots of time thinking and planning around it.  The pull to believe you can drink moderately is strong because you are in denial. If high heels hurt my feet I wouldn’t keep wearing them yet that’s exactly what people with drinking problems do.  I didn’t drink for most of my life and when I went back I drank moderately for about a year and then it became a daily thing.  Back in the 50’s researchers tried to make moderate drinkers out of recovered alcoholics and turned them all into alcoholics again.  Your brain needs time to heal so you can make good decisions.

wenchsenior

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #971 on: April 24, 2021, 11:22:56 AM »
I have 3 graduate degrees in social work, psychology and vocational rehabilitation and research has shown that most people that drink too much actually can’t be moderate drinkers. They can for awhile and then they end up back on the hamster wheel. I haven’t looked at the research lately. I joined the naked mind forum and everyone that has tried has failed. It doesn’t mean you are a alcoholic but it does mean you are a substance abuser. People without problems can easily change their relationship with alcohol, don’t spend lots of time thinking and planning around it.  The pull to believe you can drink moderately is strong because you are in denial. If high heels hurt my feet I wouldn’t keep wearing them yet that’s exactly what people with drinking problems do.  I didn’t drink for most of my life and when I went back I drank moderately for about a year and then it became a daily thing.  Back in the 50’s researchers tried to make moderate drinkers out of recovered alcoholics and turned them all into alcoholics again.  Your brain needs time to heal so you can make good decisions.

Yeah, it does seem that once people start drinking in a dysfunctional way, it often seems to literally re-wire one's brain to automate that behavior.  I'm not sure that's 'fixable' after a certain point.  This seems to be a feature, not a bug, of how the brain functions.  We automate all sorts of helpful skills and behaviors (like driving) and I don't think the pertinent software 'dismantles' once we stop doing [insert the automatic activity]. I presume the same thing happens with unhelpful skills and behaviors. 

The last time I rode a bike was in high school, sophomore year, right before my parents divorced and we moved to a city duplex, where my bike was promptly stolen.  A couple weeks ago, I got on a bike for the first time in more than 30 years.  My first ride (half hour) was quite shaky, but it wasn't like I had forgotten how to ride a bike...I was just unused to managing this particular bike (which is a much taller heavier trail bike than my standard no-gears, short, light kids' bike from the 1980s).    My second ride was much more confident. I plan to ride today, and I suspect it will soon feel almost like the last time I happened to ride my childhood bike in high school.  No reason to think that the counter-productive automated behavior related to drinking will be any different...presumably I could go 20 years not drinking, but if I restarted drinking a cocktail with dinner every couple of days, soon ye old software would light right up and I would start wanting to drink every single day, and more as my tolerance rose.

Having said that, ability to moderate probably also depends somewhat on what each individual means by 'moderation'.  I HAVE been able to moderate my intake since I quit 20 years of daily drinking, if one defines my VERY occasional drinks over the past 2 years as 'moderating'. Some people wouldn't, and would only define 'moderating' as being able to drink one drink every day, or a couple of drinks only on weekends, or whatever other variant they are personally interested in doing.  What I think of as moderating my drinking is maybe a couple of drinks every few months, not 'drinking on weekends' (which would likely start propelling me back into problematic habits) or 'drinking with dinner but not binging' (by those standards I moderated my entire drinking life, and it was definitely still problematic behavior).  Regardless, I keep leaning away from even my version of moderate drinking and toward remaining alcohol free b/c I simply came to the realization that there was not much reason TO DRINK.  The reasons that I thought I needed my cocktail hour drinks for were false, and a product of my brain wiring being changed by drinking regularly.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 11:32:03 AM by wenchsenior »

Metalcat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #972 on: April 24, 2021, 11:51:18 AM »
I have 3 graduate degrees in social work, psychology and vocational rehabilitation and research has shown that most people that drink too much actually can’t be moderate drinkers. They can for awhile and then they end up back on the hamster wheel. I haven’t looked at the research lately. I joined the naked mind forum and everyone that has tried has failed. It doesn’t mean you are a alcoholic but it does mean you are a substance abuser. People without problems can easily change their relationship with alcohol, don’t spend lots of time thinking and planning around it.  The pull to believe you can drink moderately is strong because you are in denial. If high heels hurt my feet I wouldn’t keep wearing them yet that’s exactly what people with drinking problems do.  I didn’t drink for most of my life and when I went back I drank moderately for about a year and then it became a daily thing.  Back in the 50’s researchers tried to make moderate drinkers out of recovered alcoholics and turned them all into alcoholics again.  Your brain needs time to heal so you can make good decisions.

Yeah, it does seem that once people start drinking in a dysfunctional way, it often seems to literally re-wire one's brain to automate that behavior.  I'm not sure that's 'fixable' after a certain point.  This seems to be a feature, not a bug, of how the brain functions.  We automate all sorts of helpful skills and behaviors (like driving) and I don't think the pertinent software 'dismantles' once we stop doing [insert the automatic activity]. I presume the same thing happens with unhelpful skills and behaviors. 

The last time I rode a bike was in high school, sophomore year, right before my parents divorced and we moved to a city duplex, where my bike was promptly stolen.  A couple weeks ago, I got on a bike for the first time in more than 30 years.  My first ride (half hour) was quite shaky, but it wasn't like I had forgotten how to ride a bike...I was just unused to managing this particular bike (which is a much taller heavier trail bike than my standard no-gears, short, light kids' bike from the 1980s).    My second ride was much more confident. I plan to ride today, and I suspect it will soon feel almost like the last time I happened to ride my childhood bike in high school.  No reason to think that the counter-productive automated behavior related to drinking will be any different...presumably I could go 20 years not drinking, but if I restarted drinking a cocktail with dinner every couple of days, soon ye old software would light right up and I would start wanting to drink every single day, and more as my tolerance rose.

Having said that, ability to moderate probably also depends somewhat on what each individual means by 'moderation'.  I HAVE been able to moderate my intake since I quit 20 years of daily drinking, if one defines my VERY occasional drinks over the past 2 years as 'moderating'. Some people wouldn't, and would only define 'moderating' as being able to drink one drink every day, or a couple of drinks only on weekends, or whatever other variant they are personally interested in doing.  What I think of as moderating my drinking is maybe a couple of drinks every few months, not 'drinking on weekends' (which would likely start propelling me back into problematic habits) or 'drinking with dinner but not binging' (by those standards I moderated my entire drinking life, and it was definitely still problematic behavior).  Regardless, I keep leaning away from even my version of moderate drinking and toward remaining alcohol free b/c I simply came to the realization that there was not much reason TO DRINK.  The reasons that I thought I needed my cocktail hour drinks for were false, and a product of my brain wiring being changed by drinking regularly.

It does rewire your brain, but it's hard to tell where the individual is at with that wiring until they quit for awhile.

As I said, DH and I quit at the same time, and when we drank more than just one or two drinks, he didn't have an off switch and drank much more than I did. I naturally didn't drink a lot because it made me feel awful.

However, when we quit, I had a lot more issues with cravings than he did. He can take it or leave it, and he's fine with a 2 drink limit, so for the last 18 months, he's had maybe 4 or 5 instances of drinking a beer or two and that's it.

I, on the other hand, hated that I had cravings despite not wanting to drink. My wiring is a lot stronger than his for starting to drink, his wiring is a lot stronger than mine for continuing to drink once he's tipsy. So he can moderate no problem as long as he has a hard limit.

There's a bit of a selection bias for people who quit, because most people who can moderate never feel like they need to quit. So most people who feel the need to quit are the people who can't moderate.

That doesn't mean that every person who is drinking more than they want to be needs to quit forever and can never moderate.

wenchsenior

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #973 on: April 24, 2021, 12:35:12 PM »
I agree with all of that.  DH and I had similar responses to what you describe. 

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #974 on: April 24, 2021, 03:28:24 PM »
@TheFrenchCat I wobbled back and forth on drinking/not drinking for a long time* and eventually I decided that a)I didn't need to work out whether or not I Had A Problem to decide to take a break and b)it didn't have to be forever but it did need to be a substantial enough time to get out of the habitual thinking/actions. My husband still drinks but it's a lot less now and he's almost never having more than a second beer because now he notices the difference in outcome between 2 and 3 beers the next day.

*Like recently I found an old ~livejournal~ post of mine where I am talking about it and gosh it was exactly the same self-talk I was still going through when I did stop in 2018. I eventually realised that someone who could sustain a healthy relationship with alcohol just didn't have the level of internal fretting that I did.

Cassie

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #975 on: April 24, 2021, 10:55:15 PM »
Malcat and Wenchsenior, it’s interesting to hear about the different experiences of people. I agree it’s complicated and definitely not one size fits all. It’s been almost 9 months and I had thoughts yesterday about drinking despite not thinking about it for months. It’s weird but obviously still has a grip.

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #976 on: April 25, 2021, 07:00:04 AM »
Malcat and Wenchsenior, it’s interesting to hear about the different experiences of people. I agree it’s complicated and definitely not one size fits all. It’s been almost 9 months and I had thoughts yesterday about drinking despite not thinking about it for months. It’s weird but obviously still has a grip.

Oh, I still get cravings sometimes, even though I objectively know that I don't even like drinking. It's crazy that cravings have absolutely nothing to do with what you want or don't want, they're a totally separate cognitive experience. Your brain doesn't like the sensation of the craving, so it makes up a narrative of "oh, wouldn't a glass of wine be so nice right now?" to try and make the craving go away.

Cravings ARE NOT a desire to drink. Really understanding that was critical for me.

wenchsenior

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #977 on: April 25, 2021, 08:05:29 AM »
Malcat and Wenchsenior, it’s interesting to hear about the different experiences of people. I agree it’s complicated and definitely not one size fits all. It’s been almost 9 months and I had thoughts yesterday about drinking despite not thinking about it for months. It’s weird but obviously still has a grip.

Oh, I still get cravings sometimes, even though I objectively know that I don't even like drinking. It's crazy that cravings have absolutely nothing to do with what you want or don't want, they're a totally separate cognitive experience. Your brain doesn't like the sensation of the craving, so it makes up a narrative of "oh, wouldn't a glass of wine be so nice right now?" to try and make the craving go away.

Cravings ARE NOT a desire to drink. Really understanding that was critical for me.

Same.  I get mild 'pings' several nights per week (b/c my evening routine was my primary trigger) and more intense cravings several times per year (usually in response to unexpected stress that coincides with the end of the day and/or low blood sugar).  If I drank with any regularity, or in actual response to any of these triggers, I expect I'd also be one of the people that starts to slip down the slope again.

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #978 on: April 25, 2021, 08:10:37 AM »
Malcat and Wenchsenior, it’s interesting to hear about the different experiences of people. I agree it’s complicated and definitely not one size fits all. It’s been almost 9 months and I had thoughts yesterday about drinking despite not thinking about it for months. It’s weird but obviously still has a grip.

Oh, I still get cravings sometimes, even though I objectively know that I don't even like drinking. It's crazy that cravings have absolutely nothing to do with what you want or don't want, they're a totally separate cognitive experience. Your brain doesn't like the sensation of the craving, so it makes up a narrative of "oh, wouldn't a glass of wine be so nice right now?" to try and make the craving go away.

Cravings ARE NOT a desire to drink. Really understanding that was critical for me.
This is pretty mind blowing for me.  I don't think I ever would have thought of that on my own, but it makes so much sense.  And bonus, I kind of already know how to deal with that, since my self harm tendencies are pretty much the same,  now that I'm thinking about it.  My brain will make me think I want to self harm, but I don't actually want to.  So I resist it instead of giving in.  And as an aside, I don't actually engage in self harm, I just get cravings. 

But this is huge for me.  If I do ever decide to drink again, I'll make sure it's because I actually want to and not just because I'm having a craving. 

Metalcat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #979 on: April 25, 2021, 11:07:10 AM »
Malcat and Wenchsenior, it’s interesting to hear about the different experiences of people. I agree it’s complicated and definitely not one size fits all. It’s been almost 9 months and I had thoughts yesterday about drinking despite not thinking about it for months. It’s weird but obviously still has a grip.

Oh, I still get cravings sometimes, even though I objectively know that I don't even like drinking. It's crazy that cravings have absolutely nothing to do with what you want or don't want, they're a totally separate cognitive experience. Your brain doesn't like the sensation of the craving, so it makes up a narrative of "oh, wouldn't a glass of wine be so nice right now?" to try and make the craving go away.

Cravings ARE NOT a desire to drink. Really understanding that was critical for me.
This is pretty mind blowing for me.  I don't think I ever would have thought of that on my own, but it makes so much sense.  And bonus, I kind of already know how to deal with that, since my self harm tendencies are pretty much the same,  now that I'm thinking about it.  My brain will make me think I want to self harm, but I don't actually want to.  So I resist it instead of giving in.  And as an aside, I don't actually engage in self harm, I just get cravings. 

But this is huge for me.  If I do ever decide to drink again, I'll make sure it's because I actually want to and not just because I'm having a craving.

Mind cannon. It hadn't occurred to me before how the cravings to self-harm and drink essentially feel the same to me, and that even though I didn't want to engage in either, giving in seemed to be the easiest way to get the discomfort of the craving to go away. Often giving in to the craving to drink led me to also give in to the craving to self-harm, but now that I've pre-decided not to drink, I'm not nearly so tempted to harm myself. I attribute that to better mental clarity and the compounding effect of positive decisions rather than negative ones.

It's part of the process of learning to trust your own word.

Those awful self destructive impulses like self harm and self medication take over when your mind knows that your word is no good. When you say to yourself that you don't want to drink or you don't want to self harm, and then you do it anyway, your subconscious learns that your conscious mind has no real say over anything, no authority.

When your conscious mind loses its credibility, you live in a state of constant psychological insecurity, because it means that there's no real "grown up" around to run the show. Your mind and behaviour end up like a classroom when a weak substitute teacher is failing to be in charge.

Your mind is kind of like an unruly collection of drives, and the conscious mind is supposed to be in charge. So if the conscious mind fails to do so over and over and over again, then all hell breaks loose in terms of behaviour.

Now that I've been sober for so long, my conscious mind is now respected as being in control. When I tell myself I'm going to do something, I bloody do it. I am impeccable in my word to myself, and my subconscious mind knows that. There's no weaseling in or out of things anymore.

Whereas back when I was a daily drinker and I would say "I am not going to drink this week" and then give in and reach for the wine that very evening, it made it easier to betray myself in any other issue as well.

I just didn't take myself as seriously as I do now. Now I know I mean business when I commit to something internally. My conscious mind has gone from weak substitute teacher to school principal.

I'm in charge in this brain. The subconscious kids can sit the hell down and politely contribute, but they don't get to run the show.

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #980 on: April 25, 2021, 06:44:04 PM »
Damn, @Malcat, I’ve read plenty of awesome comments written by you but this one may just be the most meaningful to me so far. Or, at least, in the top 5 of all the posts from you from I’ve read.

Metalcat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #981 on: April 25, 2021, 07:00:28 PM »
Damn, @Malcat, I’ve read plenty of awesome comments written by you but this one may just be the most meaningful to me so far. Or, at least, in the top 5 of all the posts from you from I’ve read.

Ooh neat-o. I like when people catch my wave.

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #982 on: April 26, 2021, 03:52:57 PM »
This is going to sound dumb - but what do you guys consider to be the difference between a craving and something sounding good?

I think I am having a hard time gauging my relationship with alcohol because I can't tell the difference? Right now I'm sort of operating at "if it sounds good, I shouldn't have it."

FWIW - I didn't have pregnancy cravings like how people describe them, either.  I don't know that I've ever really gone out of my way for a certain food or drink?

I do have a couple of foods that I can't stop if they are in the house - so I don't keep them in the house and only buy them once or twice a year.



« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 05:40:55 PM by StarBright »

Metalcat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #983 on: April 26, 2021, 08:42:17 PM »
This is going to sound dumb - but what do you guys consider to be the difference between a craving and something sounding good?

I think I am having a hard time gauging my relationship with alcohol because I can't tell the difference? Right now I'm sort of operating at "if it sounds good, I shouldn't have it."

FWIW - I didn't have pregnancy cravings like how people describe them, either.  I don't know that I've ever really gone out of my way for a certain food or drink?

I do have a couple of foods that I can't stop if they are in the house - so I don't keep them in the house and only buy them once or twice a year.

It's very simple.

A craving is an urge to do something you cognitively know you don't want to.

So anything that you feel compelled to do despite not wanting to would be driven by a craving: drinking, over eating, nail biting, self harm, gambling, whatever.

So if you've ever tried to not do something and done it anyway, then that was driven by a craving, not a genuine desire to do it.

So yeah, not being able to stop eating a certain snack is giving in to a craving. Drinking at 5 pm even though you told yourself you wanted to take that day off of drinking would be driven by a craving, etc, etc.

The craving is a negative, uncomfortable feeling. The "a drink would be nice" is your mind trying to offer a solution to the discomfort.

For me, the difference is so clear because I actively can't stand the taste of alcohol anymore. So I know I wouldn't enjoy it if I tried to drink it, but that doesn't stop the occasional craving.

That's where having a period sober really helps clarify things. If you've already decided, firmly that you are not drinking under any circumstances for something like 30 days, then you know full well that every urge is a craving and not real desire to drink because you are certain that you do not want to.

Until you can tell the difference, you will struggle to be in control of it.

Metalcat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #984 on: April 26, 2021, 08:45:57 PM »
Someone will probably have a definition, but here's my analogy: Cheesecake sounds good. If I  had some in the house, I'd eat it right up. I wouldn't say that I have a craving for it though, because it's easy to put out of my mind and I'm not willing to go to unreasonable lengths to get it. When I drank though, I'd pay delivery costs for a single bottle, order it by the case, go into a real store (meaning that I'd deal with my agoraphobia just to get a fix). I like cheesecake, but I'm not going to go to such (reasonable to other people, unreasonable to me) lengths. (As a jokey aside, agoraphobia is a terrific money saver!)

That's really just a matter of degree though.

You could also have a craving for cheesecake. For example, if you are determined to lose weight and have decided that you will not exceed a certain calorie amount and you've promised yourself you will only have one piece of cake, but for the rest of the evening, you keep thinking of the cheesecake in the fridge, keep picturing eating it, even though you don't want to, that would be a craving.

You don't have to be an unreasonable drinker to be addicted. I don't think I ever did anything unreasonable for the sake of alcohol, but I was still addicted. My addiction was just mild. Still, I frequently drank when I knew that I didn't want to. Like if I had wine after work two days in a row, I would almost always promise myself that I wouldn't on the third night. And yet, I rarely followed through.

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #985 on: April 26, 2021, 10:14:34 PM »
Thanks guys :)

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #986 on: April 27, 2021, 07:14:28 AM »
Someone will probably have a definition, but here's my analogy: Cheesecake sounds good. If I  had some in the house, I'd eat it right up. I wouldn't say that I have a craving for it though, because it's easy to put out of my mind and I'm not willing to go to unreasonable lengths to get it. When I drank though, I'd pay delivery costs for a single bottle, order it by the case, go into a real store (meaning that I'd deal with my agoraphobia just to get a fix). I like cheesecake, but I'm not going to go to such (reasonable to other people, unreasonable to me) lengths. (As a jokey aside, agoraphobia is a terrific money saver!)

That's really just a matter of degree though.

You could also have a craving for cheesecake. For example, if you are determined to lose weight and have decided that you will not exceed a certain calorie amount and you've promised yourself you will only have one piece of cake, but for the rest of the evening, you keep thinking of the cheesecake in the fridge, keep picturing eating it, even though you don't want to, that would be a craving.

You don't have to be an unreasonable drinker to be addicted. I don't think I ever did anything unreasonable for the sake of alcohol, but I was still addicted. My addiction was just mild. Still, I frequently drank when I knew that I didn't want to. Like if I had wine after work two days in a row, I would almost always promise myself that I wouldn't on the third night. And yet, I rarely followed through.

This is really interesting. I wonder if dieting is somehow different from other addictions. As someone who had an eating disorder, I find food cravings really psychologically complicated. As soon as something is off limits, I would crave it even more. I think the very fact that I am setting these limits creates the cravings.

The only approach that works for me in terms of eating, and ED recovery, is to not set any limits, but rather use my body and senses in the moment to determine what I really want. Similar to how Annie Grace talks about really paying attention to the actual experience of drinking, to find out if we really actually enjoy it as much as our brain tells us we enjoy it. For me, eating a whole chocolate cake now would be a bad experience, because I would feel physically awful. If my mind knows the experience will be awful, and I want some cake, I'll eat a slice, enjoy it, and that's that. In the past, when I was "dieting" and chocolate cake was off limits, if there was a chocolate cake around, even knowing that it will make me feel bad, I would eat the whole thing, because there was still a part of me that wanted to rebel against the limit, regardless of how the cake made me feel. So for me, I find external, pre-determined limits (like "I won't eat chocolate cake for a month") mess with my brain and create the addictive behaviour, while paying attention to what my body actually needs and wants in the moment allows me to make wiser decisions.

This might be an interesting approach for some people - not my idea, but inspired by Intuitive Eating and the work of Evelyn Tribole. In the book, she recommends taking the "problem food" (let's say it's chocolate cake) and instead of avoiding it, have LOTS of it in the house. No limits. It will mess with the diet-mind to do this, and yes, I might eat the whole cake, or 2 cakes! But once my mind calms down about the "bad foods" and the self-imposed restrictions go away, then the cake will stop being a mental problem. I may even realize I don't actually like cake at all, but that the off-limits attributes I had ascribed to it had created the desire for it!

I'm probably in the moderate drinker camp now, verging on AF. I never had a problem though with alcohol. I've tried going AF, and have followed the Annie Grace experiment, just to try to be healthier. I did go back to drinking moderately after being AF for a few months. Nowadays I don't really set rules for this either, but when I ask myself, do I really want a drink right now? 99% of the time the answer is no. I might have 1 drink per month, maybe eventually I will go down to zero, but I think if I try to limit it in advance, it won't really be a mindful, in the moment decision based on how I'm feeling. [BTW - I fully appreciate alcohol is an addictive substance, in a different way than sugar is, though arguably sugar is addictive too. I can see that getting sober might take some more super-ego type of mental parental-like restriction at first. But maybe a mindful, in the moment approach would work for these types of cravings for some people too?]

wenchsenior

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #987 on: April 27, 2021, 10:10:21 AM »
While alcohol/drugs and sugar trigger some of the same neurotransmitters and same part of the brain in many people, there are a number of variables at play.  There is variability in response to different chemicals (sugar vs heroin) and behaviors (sexual gratification vs gambling) across the population, so while the same general principles of biochemistry and neurology do apply, not every individual responds to the same stimuli with the same intensity, likely b/c of genetic variation, social conditioning, and one's history of personal behavior (e.g., whether one ever formed a habit of relying on food or booze to fill emotional needs).

Personally, I am unsure if cravings exist on a continuum, or if there is actually a particular brain process that is unique.  What I think of as cravings feels quite distinct from simply 'wanting to eat/do' something that has the potential to be harmful or  'addictive'.  For example, I will sometimes mindlessly overeat or eat more sugar than I meant to out of 1) lack of attention; 2) boredom; 3) succumbing to impulse when someone offers me dessert; 4) b/c there's a large amount in the house, etc.  But that does not feel at ALL the same to me as when I crave alcohol...food has never triggered that kind of feeling in me except as a small child before my brain fully developed.  If I 'catch' myself over-reating sugar, it's relatively easy to stop myself from eating it even if part of me kind of wants to eat it.  And if I really prioritize not eating it, I am not constantly bothered by thoughts of it or urges to eat it. 

Whereas, what I think of as 'cravings' for booze seem very intrusive...constantly pushing into my head when I've already decided not to drink.  They are distracting and accompanied by a sort of internal voice that wants to rationalize why drinking would be ok, despite my resolution not to. They create (or used to) a palpable sense of anxiety/anger/grief at the prospect of denial.

That's really different from my experience with any of the other things that are classified as addictive, with the exception of sex.  I can remember a similar fixation on sex with my SO during the early, charged up days of a romantic relationship...constant distraction, real anxiety/grief/anger if we had to be apart and couldn't have sex frequently, etc. 

In addition, cravings for booze came with a feeling of my 'logical risk-averse' brain literally going offline...like I had trouble actually remembering all the reasons I'd told myself not to drink.  For a while I started carrying a list with me, so I could pull it out during a craving, but then it would be like a switch had flipped in my brain and, even looking at the list, I had trouble mustering up any emotional reasons to abide by it.   I had similar feelings about sex early in a relationship...my emotional brain didn't care if it was 'risky' (missing class, in public, skipping work, etc.) b/c the desire seemed to just shut down the part of my brain that would weigh consequences.  (This is one big reason that people make bad decisions about birth control even though they absolutely plan to use birth control).  True story; when my husband and I were first having sex after we met in college, his brain got so scrambled that he actually totally forgot he was even enrolled in one particular class and didn't go for about 3 weeks!  Like one of those stress nightmares come to life.  The crazy thing was, he was in his late 20s, an exemplary grad student at the time, with a long history of being super responsible and working in dangerous, high stress conditions under pressure to perform. But it was like he had some form of insanity during the early weeks we were together. He only remembered his class b/c the professor passed him in the hall one day and asked where the fuck he'd been for the past month.

There is in fact neurological evidence that cravings of that intensity actually DO 'turn off your logical brain'.  I was just recently reading about how superactivation of the nucleus accumbens acts like a circuit-breaker that turns down/off function of the pre-frontal cortex (which is the part of the brain that weighs risk and self-regulates behaviors).


So that would explain all the stupid shit we are at risk of doing when in the grips of a neurotransmitter binge in our nucleus accumbens.  Whether it's sex or drugs or gambling or sugar or internet or shopping or what have you that really lights up the nucleus accumbens...I think that's more of an individual thing.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 10:13:04 AM by wenchsenior »

TheFrenchCat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #988 on: May 01, 2021, 04:57:51 PM »
Malcat and Wenchsenior, it’s interesting to hear about the different experiences of people. I agree it’s complicated and definitely not one size fits all. It’s been almost 9 months and I had thoughts yesterday about drinking despite not thinking about it for months. It’s weird but obviously still has a grip.

Oh, I still get cravings sometimes, even though I objectively know that I don't even like drinking. It's crazy that cravings have absolutely nothing to do with what you want or don't want, they're a totally separate cognitive experience. Your brain doesn't like the sensation of the craving, so it makes up a narrative of "oh, wouldn't a glass of wine be so nice right now?" to try and make the craving go away.

Cravings ARE NOT a desire to drink. Really understanding that was critical for me.
This is pretty mind blowing for me.  I don't think I ever would have thought of that on my own, but it makes so much sense.  And bonus, I kind of already know how to deal with that, since my self harm tendencies are pretty much the same,  now that I'm thinking about it.  My brain will make me think I want to self harm, but I don't actually want to.  So I resist it instead of giving in.  And as an aside, I don't actually engage in self harm, I just get cravings. 

But this is huge for me.  If I do ever decide to drink again, I'll make sure it's because I actually want to and not just because I'm having a craving.

Mind cannon. It hadn't occurred to me before how the cravings to self-harm and drink essentially feel the same to me, and that even though I didn't want to engage in either, giving in seemed to be the easiest way to get the discomfort of the craving to go away. Often giving in to the craving to drink led me to also give in to the craving to self-harm, but now that I've pre-decided not to drink, I'm not nearly so tempted to harm myself. I attribute that to better mental clarity and the compounding effect of positive decisions rather than negative ones.

It's part of the process of learning to trust your own word.

Those awful self destructive impulses like self harm and self medication take over when your mind knows that your word is no good. When you say to yourself that you don't want to drink or you don't want to self harm, and then you do it anyway, your subconscious learns that your conscious mind has no real say over anything, no authority.

When your conscious mind loses its credibility, you live in a state of constant psychological insecurity, because it means that there's no real "grown up" around to run the show. Your mind and behaviour end up like a classroom when a weak substitute teacher is failing to be in charge.

Your mind is kind of like an unruly collection of drives, and the conscious mind is supposed to be in charge. So if the conscious mind fails to do so over and over and over again, then all hell breaks loose in terms of behaviour.

Now that I've been sober for so long, my conscious mind is now respected as being in control. When I tell myself I'm going to do something, I bloody do it. I am impeccable in my word to myself, and my subconscious mind knows that. There's no weaseling in or out of things anymore.


Whereas back when I was a daily drinker and I would say "I am not going to drink this week" and then give in and reach for the wine that very evening, it made it easier to betray myself in any other issue as well.

I just didn't take myself as seriously as I do now. Now I know I mean business when I commit to something internally. My conscious mind has gone from weak substitute teacher to school principal.

I'm in charge in this brain. The subconscious kids can sit the hell down and politely contribute, but they don't get to run the show.
So I've been having more cravings today after not really having them for a week, and thinking about the bolded is pretty much what stopped me.  I don't want to stick to it, but I said I would, so I'm going to. So Thank you @Malcat.

I'm still debating if I want to drink after the end of the first goal or if I want to go for a full month without any alcohol.  I've found myself wanting alcohol less, which is good, I think.  Though on the downside, I haven't felt as happy as many times.  But that might be because I'm not sure my mental health treatment worked this month.  I need to not drink for a week before my next treatment, so maybe I'll extend that sober period beyond the treatment for a few weeks to see if I feel happy without alcohol if the treatment works. 

I will say, treating this like an experiment plus having the support of this forum makes it a lot easier for me compared to just trying to brute force it with will power.

Metalcat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #989 on: May 01, 2021, 05:14:23 PM »
Malcat and Wenchsenior, it’s interesting to hear about the different experiences of people. I agree it’s complicated and definitely not one size fits all. It’s been almost 9 months and I had thoughts yesterday about drinking despite not thinking about it for months. It’s weird but obviously still has a grip.

Oh, I still get cravings sometimes, even though I objectively know that I don't even like drinking. It's crazy that cravings have absolutely nothing to do with what you want or don't want, they're a totally separate cognitive experience. Your brain doesn't like the sensation of the craving, so it makes up a narrative of "oh, wouldn't a glass of wine be so nice right now?" to try and make the craving go away.

Cravings ARE NOT a desire to drink. Really understanding that was critical for me.
This is pretty mind blowing for me.  I don't think I ever would have thought of that on my own, but it makes so much sense.  And bonus, I kind of already know how to deal with that, since my self harm tendencies are pretty much the same,  now that I'm thinking about it.  My brain will make me think I want to self harm, but I don't actually want to.  So I resist it instead of giving in.  And as an aside, I don't actually engage in self harm, I just get cravings. 

But this is huge for me.  If I do ever decide to drink again, I'll make sure it's because I actually want to and not just because I'm having a craving.

Mind cannon. It hadn't occurred to me before how the cravings to self-harm and drink essentially feel the same to me, and that even though I didn't want to engage in either, giving in seemed to be the easiest way to get the discomfort of the craving to go away. Often giving in to the craving to drink led me to also give in to the craving to self-harm, but now that I've pre-decided not to drink, I'm not nearly so tempted to harm myself. I attribute that to better mental clarity and the compounding effect of positive decisions rather than negative ones.

It's part of the process of learning to trust your own word.

Those awful self destructive impulses like self harm and self medication take over when your mind knows that your word is no good. When you say to yourself that you don't want to drink or you don't want to self harm, and then you do it anyway, your subconscious learns that your conscious mind has no real say over anything, no authority.

When your conscious mind loses its credibility, you live in a state of constant psychological insecurity, because it means that there's no real "grown up" around to run the show. Your mind and behaviour end up like a classroom when a weak substitute teacher is failing to be in charge.

Your mind is kind of like an unruly collection of drives, and the conscious mind is supposed to be in charge. So if the conscious mind fails to do so over and over and over again, then all hell breaks loose in terms of behaviour.

Now that I've been sober for so long, my conscious mind is now respected as being in control. When I tell myself I'm going to do something, I bloody do it. I am impeccable in my word to myself, and my subconscious mind knows that. There's no weaseling in or out of things anymore.


Whereas back when I was a daily drinker and I would say "I am not going to drink this week" and then give in and reach for the wine that very evening, it made it easier to betray myself in any other issue as well.

I just didn't take myself as seriously as I do now. Now I know I mean business when I commit to something internally. My conscious mind has gone from weak substitute teacher to school principal.

I'm in charge in this brain. The subconscious kids can sit the hell down and politely contribute, but they don't get to run the show.
So I've been having more cravings today after not really having them for a week, and thinking about the bolded is pretty much what stopped me.  I don't want to stick to it, but I said I would, so I'm going to. So Thank you @Malcat.

I'm still debating if I want to drink after the end of the first goal or if I want to go for a full month without any alcohol.  I've found myself wanting alcohol less, which is good, I think.  Though on the downside, I haven't felt as happy as many times.  But that might be because I'm not sure my mental health treatment worked this month.  I need to not drink for a week before my next treatment, so maybe I'll extend that sober period beyond the treatment for a few weeks to see if I feel happy without alcohol if the treatment works. 

I will say, treating this like an experiment plus having the support of this forum makes it a lot easier for me compared to just trying to brute force it with will power.

Well, alcohol never made anyone happier, so it's probably really great that you weren't drinking through a down period. Drinking only makes being miserable feel normal, it doesn't make you less miserable.

As for what you are going to decide in the future?

My policy is to never bother trying to decide now for your future self, even if that future self is in the near future. Future you is going to do whatever the fuck they want to do, present you has exactly ZERO control over that.

It's kind of insane when you realize it. Things change you constantly, which means that you have no idea who you will be when it comes time to make a decision. Take responsibility for decisions that need to be make today, and inform yourself about future options, but don't kid yourself that you have any control today over what you are going to do tomorrow.

No one has that power, so don't wear that sense of responsibility.

Take the time during your first goal to just observe and learn. A more informed you will take the responsibility of deciding.

LeftA

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #990 on: May 01, 2021, 07:21:40 PM »
@Malcat , great post!

I decided this morning as I hit day 28 AF, that I didn’t want to drink right now. That I’m not sure how I’ll feel about it in the future, but that there is no need to decide that NOW. I’ll take it one day at a time, and if I feel I really want a drink, I’ll take it.

But TBH, after reading This Naked Mind and all of this thread, and abstaining for almost a month, I’m feeling that life is just better w/o alcohol.

Metalcat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #991 on: May 01, 2021, 07:37:22 PM »
@Malcat , great post!

I decided this morning as I hit day 28 AF, that I didn’t want to drink right now. That I’m not sure how I’ll feel about it in the future, but that there is no need to decide that NOW. I’ll take it one day at a time, and if I feel I really want a drink, I’ll take it.

But TBH, after reading This Naked Mind and all of this thread, and abstaining for almost a month, I’m feeling that life is just better w/o alcohol.

Good call.

Try to remember that back when you were drinking, you still decided every single day whether or not you were going to drink. It's not like it ever *wasn't* one day at a time. It's just that the more you drink, the more likely you are to drink that day. The less you drink, the less likely you are to drink that day.

Simple math.

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #992 on: May 05, 2021, 09:13:36 AM »
I had five sips of red wine with dinner on Sunday night.  We were given a bottle from my late friend's estate. 

We had spent the day taking things from her home that we wanted and her adult children who live on the other side of the country wanted us to have a toast that night as we handed over the keys the moving company.  My late friend was a real foodie, before that was a term.  She and her husband traveled the world for food and drink experiences. We had many meals with her and it is about a year since she died and with all the emotion of being in her space and going through her treasures.....

DH made a steak (she taught him how to BBQ) and we had a feast from my garden (greens and pickles) and it just seemed right to have a sip.  But the one tiny sip tasted really good.  So I had four more.

I then had an upset stomach for three days.   Was it the wine?  Was it the ibuprofen from Friday from the AZ jab? Was it just the AZ jab? 

Next time I am just going to smell the wine. 

This was one of those times that I was really unpacking memory and tradition and thought it would be fine to dabble a bit.  How many more times do I need this lesson?

TheFrenchCat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #993 on: May 06, 2021, 07:50:02 AM »
I made it to my original goal today!  One month without alcohol excepting the one planned cheat day with friends.  I feel a little proud of myself and very grateful to everyone here who helped.  I may be overconfident in this, but I also feel more in control of my choices.  I'm thinking of having a few drinks tomorrow, but if I do I'm setting a limit and I feel like I can actually stick to it.  I do still want to do a month with no cheat days, so if I drink tomorrow, I'll start a new month off after that.  Also, I lost 3 pounds, which it has been difficult for me to loose weight in the past, though I was also binge eating less.  Which might be related to not drinking, I'm not sure. 

This was a hard month with other stressors, so I'm glad I was able to not give in to the urge to drink. 

mspym

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #994 on: May 06, 2021, 03:13:11 PM »
High-fives @TheFrenchCat! Awesome stuff and I think you can rock the whole month with no cheat days. If you do drink tomorrow, try staying present and feel what it is like while you are drinking. It can be a genuinely eye-opening experience.

LeftA

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #995 on: May 06, 2021, 06:12:46 PM »
Congrats @TheFrenchCat !

Today was Day 33 for me. Ive only lost a couple pounds, but am not really exercising much these days. Hoping some things will open up soon, as vaccination efforts are going well in my area. This will help me become more active again.

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #996 on: May 06, 2021, 08:44:53 PM »
When I drank I definitely ate more.

Metalcat

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #997 on: May 06, 2021, 08:53:11 PM »
High-fives @TheFrenchCat! Awesome stuff and I think you can rock the whole month with no cheat days. If you do drink tomorrow, try staying present and feel what it is like while you are drinking. It can be a genuinely eye-opening experience.

Absolutely. Use it as an opportunity to really observe the experience as objectively as you can.

That said, you will learn more from it if you follow it up with another chunk of sobriety. Because you cannot think objectively about drinking if it's still affecting your system, which takes 10 days.

LeftA

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #998 on: May 14, 2021, 03:37:21 PM »
I passed the 40 day mark, which was yesterday. At the beginning it was a bit tough to break the routine of having a glass most evenings. But it got easier over time.

Now, I’m debating having a glass of wine this weekend. I’m not sure I want to cut it out of my life forever. But, I do worry about falling back into the rabbit hole, as being alcohol free has been really good for me both mentally and physically. Mind you I haven’t lost much weight. I think it’s because my eating hasn’t been great and I’m less active than I was pre-pandemic.

Dee

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Re: Give Up the Hooch: Booze Free for as long as you please!
« Reply #999 on: May 14, 2021, 03:42:53 PM »
Good job LeftA. Obviously up to you whether you have wine, but based on what you posted, why would you at this point?

I'm now 4.5 months into my dry year and I'm now barely giving alcohol a second thought. It is really nice.