Post by: infromsea on November 22, 2016, 01:54:32 PM
Anyone want to join us in one or the other and commiserate/offer support back and forth?
This will be our second fast of the five day length. We consume water, black coffee, and, in the depths of despair, a diet soda/fizzy water with sucralose if necessary to maintain sanity (last time I drank 2 diet drinks over the five days).
Background
We’ve been fasting for six months, primarily intermittent (going 18-24 hours without a meal) but had worked up to three days before attempting the five day fast. In our experience, you will likely see weight loss but, if you are not weight stable prior to fasting (your weight is not going up or down for 3-6 months) then you may not maximize the weight loss benefit. If you are gaining weight on a regular basis, you may put all of your fast-lost weight right back on post fast. I would not recommend fasting as a weight loss mechanism, unless you are in good control of your diet and are weight stable.
If you have never fasted before, I would not suggest attempting a five day (or longer) fast to start out. I’m not going to sugar coat it, during our first five day fast, there were moments of freaking despair, especially in day 2-3, as the body is switching to fat burning mode, it’s one of the more difficult experiences I’ve had. It’s actually suggested by some that if you are going to pass the three day mark, you should go for the 7-10 or longer fast protocol. Essentially, if you are going to pay the piper, might as well dance as long as you can. We want to see if the five day fast gets easier after repetition and maybe front load it with a keto based diet a few days before, see if that makes a difference.
Why do this?
For health reasons, primarily autophagy. I personally have multiple non-cancerous lipomas and I’m doing a long “sort of” experiment to see if the body will eventually re-absorb them. In addition we have nasty family health histories so we are playing with various protocols for preventive measures.
For a challenge. After you go five plus days without food (and you can unless you have certain medical conditions) you feel like you can do ANYTHING in life. In addition, in the two days since we’ve been re-feeding (post fast eating) I’ve felt like a golden god. I’m not exaggerating. I have more energy and mental clarity than I’ve had in 5-8 years. I honestly thought to myself, if I felt this way every day of my life, I’d rule the world in six months. You’ll have similar moments during a long fast period. The mental clarity and energy level can be amazing. I found I could discuss things all day and think logically, I just could not study difficult topics without trouble, it was strange, I could read a section from a text book and follow it but committing it to memory or really wrapping my mind around a new equation/etc. would not happen.
To save money. This is MMM after-all! Seriously, we could care less about the grocery savings BUT, when you consider that two people didn't eat for five days, that's some DOES have an impact. We are already grocery-store-frugal as it is, so we didn't save much but it could be a motivating factor in the lives of some. It was nice not going to the store and we didn't have a "bow wave" of spending (or eating) afterwards. I don't think you CAN eat the accumulated "missed calories" if you tried, maybe from one or two meals, but not five days worth.
Can I do this if I have (insert condition/limitation here)?
It’s probably up to you and your doctor but, in my experience most folks CAN fast and enjoy the benefits. My wife keeps telling me I have to “be more careful” since I don’t have much excess body fat but, to be honest, unless you are rocking 7% or less body fat, you can probably do up to 15 days easy. The rough estimates I’ve seen is that you can fast up to 2 days for every excess pound of fat over 4% body fat and/or do not fall into the underweight BMI category (less than 18.5). The length of fast may need to vary based on your condition. If you are 60 pounds overweight, you can most likely do 15 days without issue, while, if you are at 9% body fat or 18.6 BMI, you should probably roll with shorter durations, it all comes with knowing yourself.
What’s the hardest part about fasting this long?
Honestly, I’d say the hardest thing is finding something to do with the “free time” you have on your hands. For much of the time our energy levels were up and down, you may be wacked out tired, but don’t need sleep, and have time on your hands. We went to work as usual; worked in the yard/around the house, did some deep cleaning/organizing, and tried to keep busy. We actually did some shopping, and we both HATE to go shopping. Having the free time, low energy states (sometimes) and lack of desire to really accomplish anything “big” made shopping and video games attractive at night, it gave us something to do/keep our mind off food. That’s harder than it might sound since SO much of our society is based around food. My wife counted 51 restaurants (of all kind) on her 8 mile drive to work (moderate sized metropolitan area).
Do I have to stop exercising?
It depends, mostly on your current level of fitness and body fat stores. I exercised during our five day fast, running three miles morning 1/2/4, walking three miles on day three (that was the WORST DAY) and running five miles and lifting weights on morning five. Once you “switch” into burning body fat instead of ingested food, you theoretically can exercise just fine for as long as you have stores. Your body breaks the fat down and uses the glucose created, it’s may be as efficient and you may not have the same level of energy but it’s certainly doable. I would not suggest a marathon in a fasted state but I also would not say it could not be done, I’m sure it’s been done before. I’d suggest starting with walking and working in a job later in the fast, once again, your current level of health/fitness will come into play here.
Won't I lose muscle?
No, the body will up-regulate human growth hormone and won't break down muscle. Think about our ancestors, did they lose muscle and lay down after a period of not eating? If they did, they are not YOUR ancestor, cause they probably died without passing on genes.... When you think of detractors like this, consider evolution, does the idea of "you can't do XXXXX" jive with evolutionary progression and the human body?
Is this safe?
We’ve read six books, at least 20 scientific articles from peer-reviewed journals (for what they are worth…) and watched a good 20-30 hours of videos with doctors discussing fasting (Dr. Rhonda Patrick/Dr. Fung and so on….) and yes, bottom line, this is safe (for most people). On days four and five, I felt like I could continue fasting for an indefinite amount of time, I even worked out on day five and spent the second half of the day doing yard work and wood working activities. My only detractor was low blood pressure leading to dizziness when I stood up too fast or bent over to pick up leaves.
BUT I JUST CAN'T! MAYBE YOU CAN BUT I DON'T HAVE THE WILLPOWER!
OK. I'm not going to use my energy to convince you. If you think you can't, you can't... and so on.
Why are you posting this here?
We’ve searched for other message boards to discuss this topic, throw down this challenge and we just haven’t found one with reasonable/non-emotional folks to discuss this topic in a logical and intelligent manner. Most of the boards I’ve found revolve around those who have not done their home-work, don’t want to put the work in, or attempt something like a 40 day fast right out of the gate, and then wonder why they are so weak if they fail. Many of the boards I’ve browsed have been laden with head-cases. I know that isn’t the case on the MMM board (and reading this far down into my post indicates you are capable paying attention to one thing for longer than it takes to read a tweet from kayne [my boy] west).
We are looking for others to share war stories with, discuss preparation strategies, and moan and bitch with when it’s time for the big fast. We’d be glad to have conversations over email/skype etc. It’s hard to find folks who can have a decent conversation about this subject. In my experience, 99% of people just say “that’s not healthy” without even thinking before they speak. When the doc tells us to fast to test blood sugar or get a colon screen do we punch the doc in face and tell him that’s not healthy?
So, who’s ready to for a heavy duty challenge, to climb a higher hill than just skipping desert, or feeling superior because you skipped breakfast one day. Take this challenge with us and give the finger to the concept of “you have to eat every 12 minutes or you’ll go into diabetic shock!” If you undergo this, or something like this, you’ll gain a clarity and new relationship with food.
You’ll “see” the matrix and realize that the main benefactors of our current “food is always here for you” society (in the USA at least) are those that sale that food. Those of us that buy it don’t always need it and we sure as hell don’t “need” most of the junk being pushed into our faces. Obesity epidemic.... not a worry if you can develop the fortitude to go 5-15 days without food, if you can do that, you can surely conquer any demon.
Post by: Shor on November 22, 2016, 07:11:25 PM
I attempted IF earlier this year. Mostly it involved skipping breakfast and lunch, generally easy, although it freaks people out a bit. Coffee keeps the motor running.
Some days I was extending the fast across 2.5 days (dinner - fast day - fast day - lunch), but the occasional light-headedness scared me in to backing off after that.
I'll probably pick it back up (light IF, mind you!) after I eat down my current stash of perishable foods.
I'm fairly certain that my largest cuttable expense of 2016 was 'eating out'. Big enough that I could cut that category down in to smaller categories, and they're still some of my biggest adjustable expenses.
Post by: Hotstreak on November 22, 2016, 08:28:51 PM
The protein/fat/carb ratio & calorie intake is roughly equal to two large avocado's and two tablespoons of greens powder, one of each at breakfast and dinner.
Personally I skip meals when I'm not hungry, but I wouldn't consider a long term fast (certainly not 15 days, holy smokes!). However I would do a fasting mimicking diet as an experiment.
Post by: darknight on November 23, 2016, 11:01:06 AM
Post by: westtoeast on November 23, 2016, 12:36:48 PM
Post by: alleykat on November 23, 2016, 12:57:16 PM
Post by: homestead neohio on November 23, 2016, 12:57:57 PM
Post by: meadow lark on November 25, 2016, 07:41:01 AM
I am in the middle of a 38 HR fast. I am keeping it open that I may turn it into a longer fast. Not as a punishment for over indulging on Thanksgiving, but because I believe it is healthy to shake up your metabolism - follow moments of lots of food with little food.
If it is about guilt, shame, feeling superior because I am not eating - that is an eating disorder.
Post by: Dulcimina on November 25, 2016, 11:34:54 AM
I'm tempted to try your 5 day challenge starting today, since I'm already fasting. It would mean that my day three, which you've described as the worst day, would come on Sunday when I'm at home and can deal with it without work stress. Depending on how I feel on Sunday, I could either end the fast (would still be a personal record), try Hotstreak's fast mimicking diet (just need a couple of avocados) or push through until Tuesday.
I've never had the mental clarity and energy that you describe from shorter duration fasting, so it will be interesting to see if I get that with the longer fasts.
Post by: meadow lark on November 25, 2016, 07:23:07 PM
Post by: Dulcimina on November 26, 2016, 06:31:30 PM
I do 24 hr fasts MWF and have gone as high as a 36 hr fast. I usually consume broth, tea or a diet soda.
I'm tempted to try your 5 day challenge starting today, since I'm already fasting. It would mean that my day three, which you've described as the worst day, would come on Sunday when I'm at home and can deal with it without work stress. Depending on how I feel on Sunday, I could either end the fast (would still be a personal record), try Hotstreak's fast mimicking diet (just need a couple of avocados) or push through until Tuesday.
I've never had the mental clarity and energy that you describe from shorter duration fasting, so it will be interesting to see if I get that with the longer fasts.
I hope you get that experience, reaching that states of "you know, I could go a LONG time like this..." That's the period of mental clarity and, in my case, gave me the ability to really feel in control of my hunger, my diet, my relationship with food.
It's not uncommon to reach that state, I just think it's on the "other side" of 2-3 days. Not all of the 2-3 days are 100% miserable though, in my experience, the misery state lasted about 8-12 hours, the rest of the time was varying degrees of hunger and energy levels.
Take care,
Tim
Thanks, Tim. I just closed in on 48hrs, and at this point just taking it one day at a time. I feel like I should record some kind of metrics, but I don't really have numbers except weight.
Weight: Last meal was Thursday night. On Friday morning, I weighed 145.8 lb. On Saturday morning, I weighed 143.9.
Energy: Went to bed earlier than normal Friday (10:45pm) and woke up earlier than normal (6am). Got a lot done, then crashed around 11 and had to take a nap. Energy levels normal after that. Still, I'm glad that I started on the weekend. I'm not sure how the nap would have worked out on the job.
Hunger: I've been hungry since Friday night. Sorry if this discourages anyone from trying. Not "murder a puppy" hungry, but it's there. I'm also craving gum because I miss chewing, but otherwise I can distract myself from the hunger, or minimize with unsweetened tea. Must revisit if it's OK to have stevia, because this unsweetened stuff is gross. It's funny - I've been dealing with food all day. Because I started the fast on a whim, I had a lot of leftovers and other perishables to dispose of/freeze/repackage. I had the tv on the Food network in the background, then later went to the grocery store. I wasn't tempted even once to eat.
Mood: Pretty good. E.g. I went to Walmart tonight expecting it to be crowded and crazy. It wasn't awful.
I'll check back in tomorrow.
Post by: Dulcimina on November 26, 2016, 06:41:05 PM
Interesting that your interpretation of clarity was when you felt like you could fast forever - that sounds like delusion to me (😉 - clearly not physiologically sustainable to never consume calories / nutrients again). Could be an endorphin-based response. But, I do agree with feeling very powerful and in control when I reached that feeling, for me, I didn't consider it mental clarity. But maybe we just use that term slightly differently.Could it be a hunter-gather artifact? Hunger drove the need to hunt, and the mental clarity let you focus on hunting well?
Post by: Dulcimina on November 28, 2016, 06:45:18 AM
Dulcimina-
Has the hunger been constant or coming and going in waves? I've had similar experiences with fasting and being around food. When you can sit at a pizza and wings luncheon and not touch a thing even though you have not eaten in two days, it really demonstrates that the body doesn't NEED fuel every three hours, that it has stores to utilize (that's what body fat is...excess/stored fuel that we don't access because we are always re-fueling) and it makes me feel great about my level of self-control. I don't sit there bragging about not eating, I find it easier to sit there with a cup of coffee, that way I can make the excuse that I don't want to "mix" food and coffee...
I would agree that the clarity and energy levels we experience when fasted are related to the hunter-gatherer artifact. It makes sense that as we go longer periods of time without food that the body would up-regulate human growth hormone and some types of adrenaline to prevent muscle loss and get us "up and moving" to find food. I've found that 3-4 days into a fast I have trouble sleeping and some studies have found that basal metabolic rates can actually increase when fasting. It all makes sense from an evolutionary stand-point.
Infromsea, I forgot to check in last night. On Saturday, it was coming and going in waves as you described, but yesterday was better. I was hungry maybe three times all day which was easy to fix with some broth.
The issue yesterday was slowness? I can't think of a better word - I wasn't weak, and I didn't feel faint. I just couldn't go very fast. I was walking up a steep hill to the metro station while listening to a podcast. Halfway up, I realized I couldn't focus on the podcast because I was trying to focus on walking.
This morning, I feel a little more robust and a lot clearer in my mind. But I'm at work today and have a dance class tonight, so we'll see how the day plays out. I did bring an avocado with me today just in case. I have less craving for gum, so I won't add that in. But I will add in stevia to make my tea more palatable.
Interesting what you wrote about being in control at a pizza joint. It's one thing to look and not be tempted, but the smells would have driven me crazy. I haven't had that type of control since I was a kid. At Thanksgiving this year, my 8 year old nephew got in a bit of trouble for a bad attitude and not wanting to eat. I asked him if he was hungry, and he said no. I don't know him well enough to know if he was pouting and using lack of hunger as an excuse to say he was being persecuted. I do remember being exquisitely in touch with my appetite at that age, and not eating just because of the time of day, or just because food was around. As I grew older, and especially after I got sick eating some of my favorite foods, I developed a scarcity mindset because I never knew when I would be forced to give up something I loved.
Post by: Dulcimina on November 28, 2016, 06:50:04 AM
Good luck this week, Tim. Please update how it's going with whatever info you're willing to share.
D
Post by: mxt0133 on November 29, 2016, 12:00:53 AM
I think I'll go for another fast next month.
Does anyone have a good recommendation on a book about health benefits? Looking online some of the logic makes sense but having real sample data would be reassuring.
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on November 29, 2016, 06:51:54 AM
Post by: Dulcimina on November 29, 2016, 09:51:28 AM
How did dance class go?
I did not weigh in this morning since I drank A LOT of beer yesterday.... that would make this morning's weight an anomaly, I won't discuss my spouses weight... but will re-cap her total loss and re-gain after we are done. I think your idea of consuming extra water is a great one, might help really dial in the "true" results. I'm cutting out all sucralose/fake sugars this go. I'm going to increase coffee and water to compensate. Last fast of this duration I drank a monster a day to stay sane, not going to do that this time, I'll just have more coffee as needed to be functional.
Dance class was really energetic. We worked on changing partners. A good example is starting around 1:32 of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QbI5Rm07Mo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QbI5Rm07Mo). Lots of kicks and hauling ass across the room to find the next two partners and then back again to your original partner. No lightheadedness or hunger. I didn't sleep very well last night which could be related. Final note, I was down another two pounds to 137.6 this morning. I'll keep track of weight for the next 5 days as I start eating again.
Does having beer and treats before you start affect the difficulty of the fast for you? I've read a lot of advice suggesting that eating low carb before you fast makes it easier to control appetite and enter ketosis.
Post by: Dulcimina on November 29, 2016, 02:29:27 PM
I've been taking multivitamin during the fast, so I'm not too worried.
Post by: Hotstreak on November 29, 2016, 02:57:47 PM
https://thequantifiedbody.net/fast-mimicking-diet/
Post by: mxt0133 on November 29, 2016, 04:16:02 PM
mxt0133,
I've been there, that feeling of "I could keep going like this!" crazy aint it?
My suggested reading list:
- The complete guide to fasting by Fung and Moore
- The 5:2 diet or the Fast Diet by Mosley (this was my first read)
- The Obesity Code by Fung (not fasting specific but GOOD!)
- Why we get fat by Taubes (not fasting specific but also good!)
- The Sweet Poison Quit Plan by Gillespie (All about sugar/eating too often and insulin response)
Also, search youtube for Dr. Rhonda Patrick, she does interviews with some really smart folks, if you browse her "channel" you'll have LOTs to take in.
Another resource is the quantified body website, the "host" does a podcast and discusses his results with fasting. Links with LOTS of data:
https://thequantifiedbody.net/5-day-water-fast-results/
https://thequantifiedbody.net/10-day-water-fast-results/
Hope that helps. I've been looking for other resources/books but, like many things, the "knowledge" about fasting seems to have diminished over the years, it's not a new concept but it doesn't get the attention that the other "diets" get. I suspect that's because it's A. Hard and B. Doesn't cost anything, you don't make money by telling people to skip meals.
I meant to ask you, did you enter ketosis during your fast? It can be hard to tell but it usually involves a metallic/funky taste in your mouth, it can be accompanied by bad breath as well.
Tim
EDITED to add a question, additional comments on books, and add some links.
Thanks for the info, I'll definitely check them out.
As for entering ketosis state I don't believe I did because I didn't get the sense of clarity and energy I was expecting the last time I fasted for 3 days. It might be because I did it after Thanksgiving and might have had more glucose in my system to last me the three days before running out.
After a light meal last night, I didn't feel hungry waking up and skipped breakfast this morning. I only ate lunch because everyone else was eating and didn't really feel hungry.
Like other on here, I'm really starting to re-evaluate on when I should eat. Before it was mostly focusing on what and how much.
Post by: mxt0133 on November 30, 2016, 01:45:55 AM
mxt0133-
I have found that fasting totally changed my relationship with food, and I ate a 90% clean diet before even doing down this rabbit hole. It is empowering to know that we can miss a meal (or two or three) and we are not going to lay down and die. I used to be of the mindset that I had to eat every three hours and HAD to have a meal within 30 minutes of ending exercise, for me, I've found that those things are not true. Some might benifit from those "rules" but, I think the bottom line is that we all need to experiment on ourselves, question "conventional wisdom" and be open to new old ideas that have been made new again (our grandparents probably didn't think they HAD to eat every three hours....). Most of this isn't new science, it's just been "brought forward" into our consciousness.
It is empowering to know that I can go for days without food and still function. I admit that I took it easy on during my fast, no intense workouts, but did do a lot of walking and running around with the kids. I want to get to a point where I am comfortable doing normal activities during a fast, I'm still not used to being light headed from time to time.
I also eat every 3 hours or so even if I wasn't hungry just out of habit after I started having smaller meals during lunch and dinner. I hated the carb overload and sleepiness especially when I was at work. Overall I need to rethink my total caloric intake, I always tried to stay at 2000 a day but based on my current weight, age, and activity level I don't think I need that much.
Post by: Dulcimina on November 30, 2016, 11:03:24 AM
I didn't feel very well on Tuesday night. I felt faint and like my body had had enough of the fast. I broke my fast on with an avocado, 1/2 biscuit and stevia-sweetened peppermint tea. Had no major stomach or sleep issues.
I didn't plan well for breakfast this morning, so I skipped it and had my major meal at lunch. I just finished up ground pork with 5-spice powder and onions over rice and corn cooked in coconut milk. My vegetable dish was about half cup of sauteed cauliflower with raisins, cashews and sundried tomatoes. I also had some hershey's kisses that my coworker handed me.
The clarity that had been eluding me during the fast came this morning. I didn't actually feel different, but my work output has been amazing! I looked at my desk and said this is a mess. Reorganized piles into stacks, called a half dozen people, scheduled calls, read and marked up technical research plans. Hope this continues for the rest of the week!
Weight: 135.4, for a total of 10.4 lbs lost since the start.
Post by: mxt0133 on December 01, 2016, 01:36:53 PM
How has your appetite been since you broke your fast? After ending my three day fast Monday night my appetite hasn't really come back like before. I have skipped breakfast since then and no longer have hunger pains during lunch time. I eat because I think I need to eat to have energy until dinner or the next day.
Even now i'm eating a banana instead of my lunch because I don't really fell hungry.
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 04, 2016, 06:40:27 AM
Post by: mxt0133 on December 04, 2016, 03:30:57 PM
I didn't feel any different after eating the banana. After getting home from work I had a light dinner and worked out. I have been skipping breakfast since I ended my fast and no longer snack in between meals.
Do you know why you were getting the cramps and what is your solution to prevent them?
Going to read up on some of the book recommendations and do another fast next month during the holidays. This stuff if seriously making me reconsider my overall diet and eating habits. I think I have the topic for one of my personal goals for next year. This year was stopping alcohol and lowering sugar intake. I guess I'll continue the health theme onto the new year.
Post by: Cottonswab on December 05, 2016, 01:33:30 AM
I currently practice intermittent fasting (~16 hours per day), and low carb / ketogenic dieting. However, I am looking to further optimize my fasting duration and intervals. My main reservation with longer fasting periods is muscle loss. That being said, I have been inspired to start a 40hr fast tomorrow.
How did you decide on the 5 and 15 fasting duration periods? Do you have any good references to scientific studies on different fasting durations / frequency?
Post by: Cottonswab on December 05, 2016, 02:00:41 AM
We are going to use Sundays as cheat days for a few weeks (mainly beer!) and see how quick we can jump back into ketosis after a cheat day. Anyone have any experience in this realm?
I recommend that you go 4 weeks without any cheat days and then slowly re-introduce foods one-at-a-time. After I did this personally, I gained a much better understanding of how different foods were negatively impacting my health. Since then, I have avoided all grains (including beer), as it became clear that the damage being done to my body was really not worth it. I no longer have any desire for these types of foods and drinks.
Post by: Dulcimina on December 05, 2016, 09:30:40 AM
D-
10 pounds after a 3 day fast? That's awesome. Are you getting close to your goal weight?
Your food selections sound awesome, my mouth is watering reading that. Funny how clarity came the next day, that might be something to compare to the next time you fast (if you plan to try again in the future).
For me, I've just passed 72 hours. I didn't sleep well last night but still woke up with good energy levels. I ran six miles (slightly slower pace than normal) and have felt pretty good all day. I've had a few waves of hunger but no worse than 4/10 and my mind has been clear enough to study and memorize formulas for a cert.
The hardest part has been reading a book on primal diet/eating and reading all about food.
Two days to go.
Tim, sorry I haven't been checking in. I've gained about half of it back, fluctuating between 141-142.6 pounds now that I'm eating regularly again.
Post by: Dulcimina on December 05, 2016, 10:28:36 AM
Quote
We’ve been fasting for six months, primarily intermittent (going 18-24 hours without a meal) but had worked up to three days before attempting the five day fast. In our experience, you will likely see weight loss but, if you are not weight stable prior to fasting (your weight is not going up or down for 3-6 months) then you may not maximize the weight loss benefit. If you are gaining weight on a regular basis, you may put all of your fast-lost weight right back on post fast. I would not recommend fasting as a weight loss mechanism, unless you are in good control of your diet and are weight stable.
How are you measuring lipomas and how much loss would you expect to see? Would it make sense to have them measured before and after the long fast by ultrasound?
Post by: SisterX on December 05, 2016, 11:22:56 AM
I do drink tea with a splash of half and half in it in the mornings after I get to work, but those are my only calories until about noon. And it's fueled in part by the fact that I've found myself getting thirstier, not hungrier, by skipping breakfast.
Now that you've provided some resources about the science behind all of this, I may start trying to do it "more scientifically". I've already been trying to cut out eating after a certain point to make my fasting period a bit longer.
As for what's kept me going, I do feel better overall. I have plenty of energy, haven't noticed any decrease in my work, etc. I have been a bit colder, however, especially before eating. It's weird for me because I usually run a bit hotter than most people, if my cold tolerance is any indication. And despite my mental clarity, I've been doing stuff like making more spelling mistakes when I type. They get corrected, I see them, but my fingers don't seem to want to work as well sometimes. Not sure if that will go away?
I don't see myself doing a longer fast anytime soon. This might seem like a cop-out, but I have a little one and it's easier to get her to eat (which she needs to, she's so skinny) when I eat with her. So I might go further and skip lunch a few days, but I'll definitely be eating dinner when I'm with the kiddo. Hard to say, "Eat your dinner, it's good for you," when Mommy's not eating.
Post by: mxt0133 on December 05, 2016, 12:18:20 PM
- You mention fasting during the holidays, how long are you going to go for? I love the stomping alcohol and sugar intake goals. In my house, we struggle with sugar. Have you read any of the many books on that subject?
The book Fat Chance by Robert Lustig* was the final nail in the sugar coffin for me. I had started to become conscious of all the hidden sugar in our diet through the various nutrition books and documentaries I'm been reading and watching. However, this one finally put it all together for me. He has a few Youtube videos that highlight the topic of the book.
That an the book Wheat Belly by William Davis** are the main reference books that motivated me to modify my diet.
It was never so much about weight for me, although I was starting to develop a rubber tire which is going away as i have lowered sugar and refined carbs intake. I was mostly concerned about preventing chronic health issues like diabetes and heart disease because of family history. I also wanted more energy to play with my kids but work and parental responsibilities crowded out time for sports and exercise.
It's taken a little over four years to cut out coffee, alcohol, eliminate/lower processed sugar, and significantly lower bread and other refined carbs from my diet. At first it was a matter of will power which would cause me to fall of the wagon and start back up again. But slowly it has become a lifestyle choice and I no longer have to exercise any will power to say no to cake at birthdays or have a drink at a bar when hanging out with friends.
Just last night my kids brought me some bubble tea that I initially said no thanks too. Then I decided to have it to see how my body would react and see if the cravings came back. Well I went to bed with an upset stomach and feeling groggy, probably because of the insulin spike from all the sugar. So rather than fire up my craving for sugar it now makes me completely turned off.
*https://www.amazon.com/Fat-Chance-Beating-Against-Processed/dp/0142180432 (https://www.amazon.com/Fat-Chance-Beating-Against-Processed/dp/0142180432)
**https://www.amazon.com/Wheat-Belly-Lose-Weight-Health/dp/1609614798 (https://www.amazon.com/Wheat-Belly-Lose-Weight-Health/dp/1609614798)
Post by: Cottonswab on December 05, 2016, 08:06:39 PM
I have a rock climbing trip coming up on December 17, and I want to get to a target weight of 80kg (from 84kg). So, I will probably try to maintain my fast until I weigh 80kg or less.
Post by: Cottonswab on December 06, 2016, 06:37:26 AM
Good luck!
Be aware though, you'll likely put some weight back on post fast.
Thanks. I do realize that I will regain / replace some water weight. I plan on sticking with a keto diet & not splurging, after the fast is ended, to minimize weight gain. I typically proactively consume pinches of table salt, rather than drink pickle juice to maintain my electrolyte balance. After my a few episode of hyponatremia on a keto diet, I also bought some special magnesium, potassium, and selenium supplements that I use when I start to experience specific symptoms.
In any case, I am now 29 hours in, making this officially the longest fasting period of my life thus far! Thanks for the inspiration and support!
Post by: Cottonswab on December 07, 2016, 11:08:07 PM
Please share details! What were the symptoms? What supplements?
While fasting, if I lost all energy or had a headache, I drank salt water and would gradually feel better/lose the headache. I went to break my fast with a pickle and thought.... why not drink the juice while fasting...
Before I started consuming salt and other mineral supplements, the symptoms were dizzyness, lightheadness, muscle cramps, and heart palpitations. So, I did some limited research, which linked these symptoms to not only sodium deficiency, but other common mineral difficiencies (potassium, magneisum, selenium, etc.). So, as a result, I bought potassium, magneisum, selenium supplements to address specific symptoms. I have been taking sodium, potassium, and magnesium supplements during my current fast.
I am now 3 days into my fast. My hunger pangs and cortisol levels have decreased, so I think it should be relatively easy to continue the fast from here on out. So, I am currently targeting a 5-7 day fasting duration, regardless of weight. I want to give myself at least 4 days to recover, before my upcoming climbing trip.
Post by: Cottonswab on December 11, 2016, 02:18:50 AM
How are you feeling? Still hanging in there?
I am feeling good, but still have less energy / power than I did before fasting. However, each day gets better as my keto adaptation improves. I have fasted for 6 days, surpassed my weight loss target of 4 kg, and now and plan to start re-feeding soon.
I will try to remain in ketosis and restrict calorie intake, at least until the beginning of my climbing trip. If my strength and power improves, I may try to maintain ketosis throughout the trip.
Post by: Cottonswab on December 11, 2016, 09:41:19 PM
Honestly, it was hard for me to notice much benefit to fasting, beyond ketosis and weight loss. I really have no way of directly measuring the effects of autophagy, which is one of the main reasons for my fasting experiment. I currently plan to try a schedule of fasting 5-7 days per month for the next 3 months to see how it goes, but I have no plans for longer-term fasts.
From my past keto-adaptation experience, it takes about 3 weeks of being in ketosis for my endurance to start surpassing my previous levels of endurance. I only have 10 days of keto-adaptation time prior to my climbing trip. Hence the reason why I may need to break out of ketosis, to maximize performance / fun.
If you are a serious athlete, I would definitely recommending benchmarking your performance during the keto adaptation period, to see how long it takes.
I also recommending trying daily intermittent fasting (i.e., 16 hour fast period / 8 hour feeding period). I generally eat two meals from 12:00 to 20:00. My initial impression is that daily intermittent fasting is preferable to multi-day fasting for maintaining and building muscle. I will probably drop the multi-day fasts, once I am no longer working an office job.
Post by: Cottonswab on December 12, 2016, 10:16:28 PM
one thing I'm going to closely monitor is the impact of beer on ketosis. I'll take measurements during the week and prior to consumption, then have beer as usual (A couple on Sunday afternoon, usually when grilling out) and then see how long it takes to get back into ketosis. I can't wait to get the monitors and run several weeks of experiments.
Based on everything I have read and done, I really think you should drop the beer and all other grain based foods/drinks for a month. When you reintroduce beer, you will be more sensitive to all the negative effects and will be able to make a more informed about whether you want to maintain the same lifestyle. The beer is likely not only kicking you out of ketosis by spiking your blood sugar, but it also likely causing inflamation, stomach damage, and clouding your brain. For me, consuming beer and other grains is worse than consuming refined sugar.
Post by: homestead neohio on December 14, 2016, 12:51:02 PM
I am going to test out what happens after having a few on a Sunday afternoon, how long it takes to get back into a state of ketosis. I'll report back.... It may not be too helpful if we follow up beer with a fast (we'll jump back into keto much faster) but I'll test both conditions.
1. Beer followed by a long term fast- how long to get back into ketosis?
2. Beer followed up by eating normal keto diet- how long to get back into ketosis?
We'll see!
This would be helpful to know. Please also report volume of beer consumed, ABV, type of beer, rate of consumption, and especially some tasting notes. By what metrics will you consider to have crossed from "not in ketosis" to "back in ketosis"?
Post by: homestead neohio on December 19, 2016, 06:12:42 AM
Ok yall, let's see what beer does to a keto diet.
...
Post run, 1145:
Urine stick = moderate
Ketonix = 2/2.8/2.4 (I always do more than one check since it's "free")
Blood glucose = 79
We ate brunch at 1500 and since then I've had a couple keto cookies and four beers (Trader Joe's hefeweizen, not bad beer for 6.50 a six pack....).
I'm not familiar with your measuring tools or the metrics, except for blood glucose.
1. What are the metrics on the urine stick? Is it just high/moderate/low?
2. I see Ketonix is measuring acetone in the breathe as ppm. What is expected for ketosis vs. not ketosis?
3. Do you know how accurate/responsive these metrics are? I presume they are designed for this, so hopefully changing diet readily and significantly changes the numbers.
4. Did these measurements confirm your suspicion you were already in ketosis prior to brunch and beers, despite two beers the prior night?
5. Was your brunch mostly protein/fat/veg? Or did you have pancakes, syrup, and fruit?
6. Is it really brunch if you eat it at 1500?
I don't know much about this, but if using available simple carbs from diet is the body's preference, I would expect you to come out of ketosis more quickly/easily than going back in. This would encourage one to eat more simple sugars if available in order to build additional fat stores and preserve existing body fat, in case of a lean time ahead. If not available, the body would return to burning fat (dietary and stored) as the primary fuel, because that is what is there.
It will be interesting to see how those post run numbers compare to post-fast. I'm wondering if you were already above a keto baseline based on the two beers the prior night. Also wondering if breathe/ketonix would rise faster than urine levels due to a lag time between urine production and when it leaves the body.
Post by: homestead neohio on December 19, 2016, 11:16:09 AM
I'm just learning about all this and changing my habits from eating for taste to eating for health. I joined my wife for a whole 30 in April and we've kept to low sugar, low carb, high fats/protein/veg diet with a few splurges and exceptions. This also perfectly aligns with the foods we can grow and raise on our homestead, which is good for us feeding ourselves long-term. I'm down from 200 lbs in April to 175 now, and very steady there. I'd like to get down another 10 lbs. I will probably start with IF before seeing if I want to progress to additional fasting. I know I could lose the weight if I gave up alcohol for 90 days and made fewer exceptions. I'm a sucker for a free company lunch, for example.
The relationship of all of this to physical performance is fascinating to me. People running 10+ miles in a fasted state? That's amazing. I don't know if it is a good idea, but the body is amazing.
So, understanding your data set is extremely limited for now, with both measurements in the same 24 hr period:
- Your ketonix numbers were up slightly, not sure if this is significant or essentially the same (within measurement error). Your hypothesis is that these will continue up?
- Your urine strip numbers were down slightly, a contrary measurement. Your hypothesis is this should rebound if you are re-entering/staying in ketosis?
- Your glucose was higher than expected. Your hypothesis is this will come back to normal?
Quote
Urine strips are good when starting out but they are a rough estimate and become un-reliable the longer you eat high fat/mod protein/low carb.
Since you normally eat high fat/protein, low carb, do you consider your current use of the strips to be reliable or un-reliable?
Post by: homestead neohio on December 19, 2016, 01:48:41 PM
12/17/16 dinner + 2 beers (Sam Adams White Christmas)
12/18/16 0700 start 22 mile run
12/18/16 1145 post run ketonix = 2/2.8/2.4
12/18/16 1500 brunch + 4 beers (hefe)
12/19/16 0900 (just about 13 hours fasted) ketonix = 2.8/2.9/2.9
12/19/16 1415 ketonix .5/.6/.5.
So you are reading as less of a ketonic state now than 5 hours ago? While fasting?
Are you thinking the alcohol artificially increased the readings? Interference? Can you blow on this thing with vodka in your mouth and see what happens? Is your beer laced with acetone? The blood alcohol from those beers is long metabolized, are you suggesting you are just now seeing the lowered affects of those on ketosis? That doesn't make sense if you ran yourself into ketosis. I think you ate a snickers bar for lunch.
I think having multiple readings in short, regular intervals, and drinking beer (or making other diet changes) and monitoring if the pattern is the same would be a way to understand what is happening or if this device is not so good at its job. Might have to set the intervals (4 hr?) and adhere to a schedule if you want to facilitate a good comparison between events.
I'm trying to understand this with a background of beer and eating. It'd be easier to start with a stable trend based on the fast and try to understand what happens when you add beer and food.
Post by: homestead neohio on December 22, 2016, 09:18:48 AM
Quote
I do think the "left over" alcohol being processed caused the high ketonix numbers earlier (doing some netsearch, I learned this is a known issue, alcohol could cause high numbers up to 24 hours after).
On the other hand you had previously said you ran yourself into ketsosis.
Quote
The way I read them, my sunday morning numbers did indicate that I was re-entering ketosis (I've been in and out over the past few weeks). I have never seen a higher urine reading. I believe this was "brought on" by the fasted long run. That tracks with my understanding and experience, as you start to exercise in a fasted state (only 12 hours fasted but no feeding before hand and during) you burn through your stored carbs and then start burning fat, entering ketosis.
Yesterday, at mile six I got VERY heavy legs for about 10 minutes, this resolved at mile 7 or so. I've had this experience before and now believe that I am literally running into a ketogenic state via this mechanism. If I start out running in ketosis, I shouldn't have the same experience, I might start a little slow but shouldn't "feel the switch".
I'm wondering if re-interpreting history like this is valid:
Quote
12/17/16 dinner + 2 beers (Sam Adams White Christmas) (not in ketosis)
12/18/16 0700 start 22 mile run (ran yourself into ketosis)
12/18/16 1145 post run ketonix = 2/2.8/2.4 (in ketsosis)
12/18/16 1500 brunch + 4 beers (hefe) (trigger event to take body our of ketosis)
12/19/16 0900 (just about 13 hours fasted) ketonix = 2.8/2.9/2.9 (still in ketosis 13 hours after carbs)
12/19/16 1415 ketonix .5/.6/.5. (not in ketosis, body adjusted to high carb input 18 hours after beers)
With this interpretation, you have some data about coming out of ketosis. If correctly interpreted and reproducible, it would take 13-18 hours to come out of ketosis after 4 beers worth of carbs (there were not many carbs in your brunch). It would take a lot of rounds of fasting, beer, and measurement to establish reproducibility, not sure if that is your aim.
I wonder if it would take longer with fewer carbs, or if the rate of change is limited by switching metabolic pathways and it takes the same time no matter how many carbs are consumed above some trigger threshold (some low level of carb input where you just stay in ketosis). Are trying to find this threshold?
You should absolutely take a ketonix reading immediately after a beer to test for interference in the reading. If it elevates already high numbers, there is probably interference as drinking a beer can't put you further in ketosis. But those post run numbers could have been real.
Having all that energy you describe, but getting foggy in the brain sounds a little manic, but you seem to really enjoy it. Enough to put yourself through a pretty extreme eating regimen. During our whole 30 and while eating relativley low carb for a period of months after, my wife lost a lot of body fat, so I assume she was in ketosis. She did not have more restful sleep or lots of energy, which she was hoping to gain.
Post by: homestead neohio on December 22, 2016, 11:35:33 AM
- About your wife's experience: Keto sometimes requires VERY low carbs for some folks (the epileptic version of the diet keeps folks under 10 grams a day) and you have to monitor protein as well. If protein is too high, it will cause insulin to spike (fat is the only primary nutrient that doesn't have an outsized impact on insulin) and that can keep one out of ketosis, they will probably drop weight from the reduction of sugar/simple carbs etc. but may not be in ketosis.
From what you indicate (weight loss but no change in sleep or energy) I would hypothesize that your wife was low carb, not necessarily in ketosis.
We were low carb, no very low carb. There are plenty of sugars in carrots and onions, which we ate a LOT of, and there was a lot of protein intake on whole 30. We also ate sweet potatoes frequently. She was eating more food than normal, and while we didn't count calories, I presume more calories, but dropping weight including loss of body fat. I presumed this use of body fat during a time of high dietary fat and low carb was a result of burning body fat for energy.
I understand people's threshold may vary. But if they are burning body and dietary fat at low carb intake (not VERY low carb), is this not ketosis? I probably need to read a lot more about metabolic pathways.
Our conclusion was that her sleep and energy issues were not dietary.
Post by: Cottonswab on January 06, 2017, 10:23:40 AM
I am still undecided on when to end this fast, but I am currently planning to fast for at least 6 days again and then decide how much further I want to push the envelope.
My only really measureable goals for fasting are really fat loss related, so I might continue the fast until I hit my short-term target weight of 76kg (starting fast at 82.7kg) and then start eating keto with a slight calorie deficit until I reach my final goal of 73kg. Or if I am feeling strong and motivated, I might just continue fasting until I hit my final goal of 73kg.
Post by: OurTown on January 06, 2017, 10:42:14 AM
Post by: Cottonswab on January 08, 2017, 07:29:03 AM
I am now 3 days in to my second fast and still going strong...
Post by: Cottonswab on January 14, 2017, 02:36:27 AM
At the moment, It seems to me that a 5 day fast, once per month will likely be optimal for me. So, that is what I am going to try in February. I'll check back in after my next fast.
Post by: Cottonswab on February 05, 2017, 04:32:01 AM
I was thinking about your thoughts on longer fasting periods may not be beneficial for you....
It took me a lot longer (~6 days) for my strength and endurance to recover to my pre-fast state. Restarting my digestive system was also much more disruptive to my sleep the first night, after breaking my fast.
Since I am currently I am currently in Kazakhstan, I don't really have any good ways to objectively measure my biometrics. However, my leading hypotheses are as follows:
- My stores of key minerals (zinc, calcium, selenium) reached a more significant state of depletion, and several more days of food intake was required to regain homeostasis.
- Key enzymes that support aerobic and anaerobic metabolism became significantly depleted, because I did not do any high or moderate intensity exercise during the fast. Several days of moderate-intense exercise is required to maintain or restore these enzymes to previous levels. I avoided high and moderate intensity exercise to minimize muscle loss.
I plan to do moderate intensity exercise during the first two days of my next fast and then only low intensity exercise for 3 days, before breaking my fast. I am hoping that this will avoid significant depletion of key minerals and enzymes, and minimize athletic performance set backs.
Post by: Ready2Go on February 10, 2017, 03:38:41 PM
Late day 3 was very difficult - keto 'flu' symptoms I think. After that not difficult. I only did light exercise. At the end of day 5 I was feeling a bit weak and glad to eat some food. Thanks for the inspiration!
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Post by: Metric Mouse on February 11, 2017, 12:00:14 AM
I have been reading this thread with great interest, as I have done 3 day fasts without issue, and never thought to go longer. So I was challenged to try this for myself and have now completed a 5 day fast
Late day 3 was very difficult - keto 'flu' symptoms I think. After that not difficult. I only did light exercise. At the end of day 5 I was feeling a bit weak and glad to eat some food. Thanks for the inspiration!
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Wow. That's pretty awesome. Good work!
Post by: Cottonswab on February 12, 2017, 11:06:15 AM
I am still struggling to maintain homeostasis, while fasting (and while eating a ketogenic diet). My primary hypothesis is that excessive coffee consumption (before, during, and after fasting) is significantly depleting key mineral and vitamin reserves, as well as preventing me from building them back when I am eating. These problems become more extreme once my insulin levels go down, and my body starts dumping fluids.
I will cut back on my coffee consumption to 1 cup per day, and see if there is any improvement.
Post by: Ready2Go on February 27, 2017, 04:22:10 PM
I have been reading this thread with great interest, as I have done 3 day fasts without issue, and never thought to go longer. So I was challenged to try this for myself and have now completed a 5 day fast
I don't know how I missed your update to the post but congrats! (Late, I know...)
That's impressive! Do you feel more confident about diet/nutrition/exercise/life in general now?
Confident? Not yet. I felt weak while exercising for about a week after the fast, and that was a bit disappointing. After some additional study, I believe that I did not get enough salts/minerals, and that I should have done more light exercise during the fast itself. I am definitely paying a lot more attention to what I am eating at a macro level. I want to do this again - maybe mid March. In preparation for that, I am upping my magnesium and potassium intake to make sure I am in good state before starting. I am particularly interested in the autophagy benefits of fasting so I'm going to be doing more research about that.
Post by: OurTown on March 03, 2017, 07:29:59 AM
Post by: OurTown on March 03, 2017, 10:10:43 AM
Post by: OurTown on March 06, 2017, 12:20:59 PM
Post by: OurTown on March 22, 2017, 03:15:59 PM
Post by: Ready2Go on March 22, 2017, 04:59:16 PM
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Post by: Pushkina2 on March 22, 2017, 06:41:54 PM
Post by: East River Guide on March 25, 2017, 12:48:01 PM
Post by: East River Guide on March 27, 2017, 07:35:59 AM
What are your IF plans (if any?).
My IF practice is pretty modest. I have a baseline of keeping carbs low and eating only once a day (dinner) but sometimes throw in a 48-72 hour fast. I really use it more of a system reset if I find myself too far off the plan, like when forced to do an excessive client dinner or find my weight has risen somehow.
Post by: OurTown on March 27, 2017, 03:13:00 PM
Post by: OurTown on March 29, 2017, 08:00:39 AM
Post by: OurTown on March 30, 2017, 09:32:08 AM
Post by: Ready2Go on April 02, 2017, 07:23:44 PM
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Post by: westtoeast on April 03, 2017, 02:46:35 PM
My question is about travel. I have a weeklong trip coming up and I have a lot of food intolerances that make it hard to eat while traveling. Is it nuts to consider doing a long fast or maybe a few 36 hour fasts while traveling? Will this be convenient, cheap and distracting or will it be totally miserable and make it hard to enjoy travel? I'd love to hear if anyone has tried this.
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Post by: OurTown on April 03, 2017, 02:48:20 PM
Post by: rothnroll on April 03, 2017, 06:58:54 PM
The only thing that I am drinking is water and a coffee in the morning.
I have done 48 hours before. I hope to stay strong this time.
Post by: rothnroll on April 03, 2017, 08:39:32 PM
Thanks OT!
On day 12 and feeling good.
I've had some ROUGH days but today has been pretty smooth, not sure why the difference, trying to tease out the source of my hard ones.
Come WED night after 2100, I'm eating!
What is your current weight loss at?
Post by: rothnroll on April 03, 2017, 10:05:53 PM
I do notice that I get super grumpy on a fast.
Hey infromsea, why did you decide on 15 days? Why not 12 or 20?
Post by: rothnroll on April 04, 2017, 08:22:28 PM
I didn't think this was possible past 48 hours until I read this thread. Thanks for the inspiration.
I am worried about being able to think. I just finished data collection on a study and I now have to start data analysis.
Day three is tomorrow :)
Post by: rothnroll on April 04, 2017, 08:59:01 PM
Day 7 comes to a close, it's been a rough one.I have been having calf cramps as well. Any clue on what causes that? I started taking vitamins (multi) tonight and a magnesium supplement.
I came home yesterday (evening of day 6) and did pullups and I paid for that. I started cramping and having leg pain. Since then I've been pounding a home-made "ketoaide" and pushing mag supplements/spray mag to combat the cramping. I'm now up to taking: mag/potassium/selenium/vitamin C/calcium and zinc supps. This might be too much, might be too little, time will tell (this is an experiement after all).
I still have the low level cramps/discomfort in calves but ZERO hunger (made dinner for kiddo tonight, not an issue) and ok energy. Mental clarity is high, if a little spacey. This morning ketones = 6.7, glucose = 78, not going to check again until tomorrow morning. Nearing the half-way point I just want to drop the calf cramps, when they wake you from a full sleep, that gets old. The good thing is, a high tolerance for pain/discomfort and long history of distance running have left me with a pretty good judge of what's bearable and what's not, this is bearable, just annoying.
I set my goal at 21 days.
Not sure if I can do that.
Post by: OurTown on April 05, 2017, 10:35:43 AM
Post by: homestead neohio on April 06, 2017, 07:21:01 AM
Did you see the autophagy you were hoping for? How do you know? Are these sub-dermal lumps you can see/feel?
Post by: rothnroll on April 06, 2017, 05:11:03 PM
I am now on day 4. Day three was terrible. I only got 1 hour of sleep heading into day three. I could not go to sleep.
I was too hungry.
Today Was much better. I had a full night of sleep and the hunger pains are much less.
....
Post by: rothnroll on April 06, 2017, 09:42:49 PM
I was not eating Keto before fasting. I think that might be a good idea the next time.
VERY typical rothnroll, where you eating keto before fasting? That seems to help control my hunger once I start a fast, your body switches from dietary fat to the fat stores, making it easier to "switch".
Good luck in achieving your goal!
I did a juice fast a few years ago for 3 weeks.
It was miserable and expensive. I was much hungrier on the juice fast.
Post by: rothnroll on April 07, 2017, 12:31:29 AM
Congrats on the 15th day fast.
I am now on day 4. Day three was terrible. I only got 1 hour of sleep heading into day three. I could not go to sleep.
I was too hungry.
Today Was much better. I had a full night of sleep and the hunger pains are much less.
....
VERY typical rothnroll, where you eating keto before fasting? That seems to help control my hunger once I start a fast, your body switches from dietary fat to the fat stores, making it easier to "switch".
Good luck in achieving your goal!
What is your plan to break your fast?
Keto again?
Post by: rothnroll on April 08, 2017, 07:47:28 PM
Post by: rothnroll on April 09, 2017, 08:47:20 PM
Your trouble sleeping may be that you don't need as much sleep.Today was day 7. I went to an outdoor concert and the smells from the Food Trucks were killing me! I almost broke my fast.
I've found that fasting saves the body a lot of energy that it would normally be using to deal with the metabolic impact of eating. Once you are deep in ketosis, it "may" be that ketones help repair cells/take care of processes that would normally occur while asleep faster and we don't need as much sleep (very common to hear/read about).
If you are really hitting the wall, I suggest the two keto dudes website forums or other fasting websites to help you "see" if you are "pushing" too hard or simply dealing with the "usual" (not that much of this is the usual...).
Good luck!
I am eating keto post fast and my wife and I will continue to do so due to being insulin resistant (family genetics, gotta love em!)
I stayed strong though.
Thanks for the keto info. I have some keto sticks. I am probably not going to waste my time with them. I am not eating anything or cheating, so I figure I will be in keto eventually. I kind of felt like I had the keto flu today, but it could be the lack of sleep.
I am going to break my fast on the 21st of April, which should be 19 days. I have some schoolwork to do (PhD Candidate) and I am having problems with motivation and focus. Hopefully i won't have to break it before then.
Oh, I am drinking 2 cups of black coffee a day. I know that is cheating (Kind of), but I am not ready to give up caffeine. I am addicted to it, and anytime I have tried to skip a day without any coffee, I had a pounding headache.
Thanks for the encouragement.
Post by: OurTown on April 10, 2017, 11:29:38 AM
Post by: rothnroll on April 10, 2017, 01:33:26 PM
I'm going to dial back to one fast per week, probably a 36 hour from Thursday evening to Saturday morning. I feel great but I don't want to overdo it. I've lost a lot of weight fairly quickly, so I think I'd like to get my body used to its current weight for awhile and maybe that will become the set point. I'm keeping on a pretty powerful keto eating plan the rest of the time, trying to stay under 20g carbs per day.How much have you lost in total?
How many fasts have you completed?
I like the idea of a 36 hour fast a week.
We are about the same age (I'm 45).
Post by: OurTown on April 10, 2017, 02:22:44 PM
Post by: mizzourah2006 on April 11, 2017, 08:53:29 AM
Post by: Landlady on April 11, 2017, 03:02:51 PM
Post by: rothnroll on April 12, 2017, 12:41:45 AM
I have been craving a Chipotle salad bowl though. I don't have any cravings for carbs or pizza, etc.
I actually want some fruit.
Post by: rothnroll on April 12, 2017, 12:47:09 AM
I pretty much always do intermittent (fast from 7PM to 11AM) and about once every other week I do 24 hours (7-7), but just curious how people with SOs deal with dinner time. I just find myself getting hungry when I see my wife cooking dinner for her and my daughter. Then I just break down and realize that I am not doing it for any particular reason other than to see if I have the self-control to do it for longer than 24 hours and because of there being no real goal I have always just decided to eat. My wife considers dinner time a time to catch up on the day, so I don't think she would be very happy with me not being at the dinner table. Any suggestions?I sit down with my family every night, help the wife cook, and clean up. We have 2 kids and it's part of being a parent.
I have done some tempting things, like make homemade pizza. It made the entire house smell good. I made burgers and fries the other day and I wanted to just take one bite. I was considering it, and my teenage son talked me out of it. I told everyone that I needed their encouragement before I started this. We don't eat out very often, but the other day we went to California Tortilla Company because my kids got free meals because of their report cards. I wanted to break the fast as soon as I saw the yummy looking veggies and chicken. I am not sure if I will ever do such an extended fast like this again. My plan is to try keto or IF when going off of the fast. Thanks for the encouragement.
Post by: rothnroll on April 14, 2017, 12:31:16 AM
I just finished Day 11
WHen I wake up it will be day 12.
I am doing well, but hating it!
I can't concentrate at all. I have to do some really high level math - it's impossible.
I have lost a good deal of weight. I believe 16 pounds or so 11 days. The last 7 days it has been a steady 1 pound a day.
Not sure if I will ever do this again.
It will be over soon...
Thanks for the encouragement.
Post by: gerardc on April 14, 2017, 03:04:08 AM
How would you recommend starting? I'm thinking 36 hours the first time (1 full day + 2 nights). Keep lifting as usual? 1 day probably won't do much, prob. equivalent to 2-3 days in a row of very low calories, which I do occasionally.
Post by: East River Guide on April 15, 2017, 03:27:54 PM
Post by: rothnroll on April 16, 2017, 02:51:15 AM
I always worry a little about these "take X supplement" when fasting ideas. Part of the appeal of fasting to me is the intuitive principle that evolution provided a system designed to periodically get less nutrition/calories, so fasting is a way of escaping the modern environment of excess and connecting to a natural rhythm. But if the optimal state is the natural state of ups and downs (downs being the fasting), it's hard to then say we should be tweaking that with something foreign to the evolutionary process. I don't think Og had magnesium supplements. Maybe salt, but that seems like a stretch, at least on a consistent basis.I thought the same thing too.. until I got muscle cramps. I have been taking a multivitamin and some MIO in my water (the electrolyte non flavored one). Once I did that the muscle cramps went away. Most of the cramps happened in the middle of the night. Weird.
Post by: rothnroll on April 16, 2017, 03:07:16 AM
I plan to do another 5 days. Who knows.
My sleep patterns are flipped. I have been staying up until 6 am. I can tell you that I am not tired and I don't believe that I have even yawned in 10 days.
Also, my skin has cleared up and my eyes are as white as I can EVER remember.
I think this was a good experiment.
Post by: rothnroll on April 16, 2017, 03:18:30 PM
Well, I am now on day 14. You guys that have been talking about working out, I don't see how. I do not have enough energy to do that. I can go on a small walk with the wife, but that is it.
I plan to do another 5 days. Who knows.
My sleep patterns are flipped. I have been staying up until 6 am. I can tell you that I am not tired and I don't believe that I have even yawned in 10 days.
Also, my skin has cleared up and my eyes are as white as I can EVER remember.
I think this was a good experiment.
Amazing work roth!
Fasting truly does get "easier" as you do it more often. The more cycles I go through, the more capable I become during a fast, your experience looks very typical. Your sleep "issues" probably stem from the adrenaline the body produces during a fast as it does it's best to keep us "powered up" and capable of movement in order to hunt... It's not uncommon on a keto diet either.
Don't sweat the fact that you don't feel like working out, the fact that you are living/breathing/going to work etc. after 14 days of no caloric intake, that's pretty damn good data right there, you DON'T have to eat every 3 hours or face a wasting death!
The energy and skin improvements are likely due to ketosis/autophagy/waste product removal. I'd swear on a bible that my eye sight improves, but that's subjective....
Good work!
Thanks for the encouragement. How many different cycles have you done (and what length)? How often?
Post by: OurTown on April 17, 2017, 03:05:14 PM
Post by: rothnroll on April 17, 2017, 04:08:51 PM
Roth,I would hate to do a 3 day fast every week. The worst part of this fast was the first three days. Once you get into it, it doesn't get any harder (e.g. Day 4 isn't any harder than day 16).
I've done numerous 24/48/36 hour fasts, something like once every two weeks.
Wife got on board about eight months ago once she saw I didn't waste away and die and we've done four 5 day fasts, those we do every six weeks or so, usually around a special event, like fasting the week before thanksgiving, that kind of thing. And of course there's the big one, I did 15, she did 16, we've only done that once (so far). Something like that, we'll only do every 6-9 months.
For now, she's going to fasting three days a week, every week, until she reaches her goal weight and gets off the meds. I'm actually sticking with IF only as I go into a new phase of trying to put on muscle without too much weight gain.
I like the idea of a regular fast like you mentioned, maybe once a month for 5 days.
Today is day 16. I hope to end this on Thursday.
I am still dropping weight...
Post by: gerardc on April 18, 2017, 11:11:34 AM
For now, she's going to fasting three days a week, every week, until she reaches her goal weight and gets off the meds.
I thought you recommended not to fast with the goal of losing weight?
Do you usually binge eat when you end a long fast?
Post by: OurTown on April 18, 2017, 11:45:40 AM
For now, she's going to fasting three days a week, every week, until she reaches her goal weight and gets off the meds.
I thought you recommended not to fast with the goal of losing weight?
Do you usually binge eat when you end a long fast?
I can't speak for the OP, and I haven't done any fasts longer than 36 hrs. But I do not binge eat at the end. In fact, I have found that by doing intermittent fasting 2-3 times per week I am eating less on the feeding days.
Post by: homestead neohio on April 18, 2017, 11:57:08 AM
Do you usually binge eat when you end a long fast?
I expect this would make you sick. Your body has adapted to running on stored fat. It is probably enough of an adjustment to start re-feeding with a keto diet, introducing protein and dietary fat first in moderation, then ramping up to normal amounts of food.
Post by: rothnroll on April 18, 2017, 04:00:41 PM
It's not my main goal, however it is bound to happen. I am on day 16 of my fast, and I have dropped a bunch of weight. I think I am down about 18 to 20 pounds.For now, she's going to fasting three days a week, every week, until she reaches her goal weight and gets off the meds.
I thought you recommended not to fast with the goal of losing weight?
Do you usually binge eat when you end a long fast?
Post by: rothnroll on April 18, 2017, 04:08:41 PM
I do not want to do Keto after this. I have done keto before, and like it.I would hate to do a 3 day fast every week. The worst part of this fast was the first three days. Once you get into it, it doesn't get any harder (e.g. Day 4 isn't any harder than day 16).
I like the idea of a regular fast like you mentioned, maybe once a month for 5 days.
Today is day 16. I hope to end this on Thursday.
I am still dropping weight...
Have you thought about how you are going to break the fast?
I am going to end my fast on Thursday at 1300. My plan is to eat a banana and a handful of cashews, and wait until later in the day for my wife to get home.
I broke keto fasts before the wrong way before (pizza.. lol) and felt terrible. I want to have a salad from Chipotle with guacamole for dinner. We hardly ever eat out, but this is what I am craving.
Then Friday I am going to transition into intermittent fasting and only eat in the evenings. I am going to log all my food with the myfitnesspal app to ensure that I am not exceeding 1600 to 1800 calories.
That is my plan. What are the holes in it? :)
Post by: dividendman on April 18, 2017, 08:47:44 PM
Post by: rothnroll on April 20, 2017, 02:38:58 AM
I have some cashews, a banana, and a large coffee with full fat cream planned for later.
I have lost a bunch of weight - I lost 25 pounds in 18 days (I'm 6'1 - went from 233 to 208). I don't feel like I lost any muscle at all.
Plan is intermittent fasting.
I can't wait to be done. I have been thinking about food non-stop. I'm not hungry though. I am not at 100% mental capacity though. I am having problems concentrating.
If I had a mentally easier job, it would have been much easier.
Thanks infromsea for the support. I am going to try something shorter in 2 weeks or so.
Post by: rothnroll on April 21, 2017, 01:07:44 AM
I ended up going to a sushi place and getting this delicious sushi. We are very frugal, so this was a treat! My wife is a great cook. We have made sushi before, and it took forever!
Now that I have more energy, I am going to continue running. I was running about 75 miles a month before this fast. I didn't have the energy to even attempt it during the fast though. I think I might do a 3 day fast next week. I have to see what my weight is in a couple of days to see what my "actual" weight is.
Thanks for the support.
Post by: gerardc on April 22, 2017, 01:44:15 AM
I can't wait to be done. I have been thinking about food non-stop. I'm not hungry though. I am not at 100% mental capacity though. I am having problems concentrating.
If I had a mentally easier job, it would have been much easier.
I find dieting to low bodyfat levels does that in general, whether you get there by intermittent fasting, keto, high-carb, etc. caloric deficit, you just can't focus while the "fat burning" is happening.
So if you have an intellectually demanding job, it will make things harder to lose weight. Sometimes I suspect it's not the lack of exercise that makes white collar types fat, but the intellectual stimulation that makes them hungry -- they can't get in a caloric deficit and function normally. If you're willing to lose a few IQ points without stressing, dieting suddenly becomes much more bearable.
No wonder all the fitness youtubers / instagrammers are all doing ONLY fitness (and youtube), of course they're in shape. Don't overestimate that advantage. That's a good reason to FIRE actually, it is so much easier to be healthy when not working.
Post by: OurTown on April 24, 2017, 09:26:44 AM
Post by: gerardc on April 24, 2017, 10:52:11 AM
That's funny, I have no problems with mental focus during intermittent fasting and keto, and I have an intellectually demanding job. That's because I'm doing keto, not something else.
Are you a muscular < 10% bodyfat? If you're a fat ass, a caloric deficit is a lot more manageable. There's a reason you don't see too many shredded chemical engineers walking around the office.
Post by: OurTown on April 24, 2017, 12:04:53 PM
Post by: OurTown on April 28, 2017, 08:03:42 AM
Post by: facepalm on April 30, 2017, 09:35:05 AM
Just finished "Complete guide to fasting" and have read Dr. Fung's other books. I managed a 17 hour fast last week, and completed a 24 hour fast yesterday. I'm going to do another couple of one day fasts, then shoot for a 5 day fast.
In the meantime, I'm looking at doing IF. Will probably skip breakfast and lunch, and eat when I arrive home at 3. My goal is to not eat at work--I have a demanding job, and there is a constant parade of bad food choices on display in the staff room. So If I can avoid the staff room completely it would probably be doable.
Five summers ago, I did IF and dropped almost 50 lbs. Stressful relationship put it back on. :-(
Post by: NinetyFour on April 30, 2017, 09:41:31 AM
I did a 49 hour fast 4/19 - 4/21 and did a 96 hour fast last week.
The 96 hour one was easier than I thought it would be--but I was definitely ready to eat at the end (was watching the clock, as I wanted to get 4 full days in).
I plan to do another fast this week--probably a 72 hour one.
Post by: NinetyFour on May 03, 2017, 09:41:28 PM
I'm interested in fasting.
I did a 49 hour fast 4/19 - 4/21 and did a 96 hour fast last week.
The 96 hour one was easier than I thought it would be--but I was definitely ready to eat at the end (was watching the clock, as I wanted to get 4 full days in).
I plan to do another fast this week--probably a 72 hour one.
Good luck with your efforts!
I think fasting is gaining in popularity as we realize:
a. It's doable
b. It's actually healthy (if nothing else it gives our body a break for a while, there IS a metabolic cost to eating....)
c. It's been done throughout history
d. If it was good enough for Socrates/other notables in history, it's probably good enough for us...
What else could be simpler, don't put stuff in your mouth and the body will heal itself given enough time...
My wife started a 10 day fast Monday, I'm waiting for the weekend to start a 72 hour. I have a big exam next Wed and I want to go into it with mental clarity and energy, so I'll fast 3 days first, screw the "bowl of oatmeal/healthy breakfast" concept. By NOT using up energy to digest food, I'll be in a prime mental state.
Take care
Thanks for your comments, infromsea. The fast I started last Sunday night only lasted 38 hours. I was a bit disappointed in myself for breaking it so soon. Might start another one tomorrow and try for several days. This Sunday night, I will be prepping for a colonoscopy, so I'll have to be fasting for that anyway.
10 days!! That sounds incredible to me. Kudos to your wife. Has she done one of that length before?
94
Post by: NinetyFour on May 04, 2017, 05:12:01 AM
Just to be clear, how do you and your DW define fasting?
I told someone last week that I was fasting and mentioned that I was drinking coffee, and she gave me a surprised look. She said something like, "Oh, you're drinking coffee? Well, then maybe I could fast for that long as well." I wasn't sure what she meant, exactly, but she's a bit peculiar anyway...
When I fast, I allow myself to drink water, tea, and coffee--very rarely do I drink anything other than those things anyway. And I eat nothing.
You (and your DW) have definitely inspired me to try for longer fasts--so thanks!
Post by: meadow lark on May 04, 2017, 05:28:09 AM
94 - Dr Fung says you can have water, tea, coffee and that it doesn't matter if you add 1T of chia seeds or flax or cream or coconut oil to your drinks. He also encourages drinking bone broth for the salt (although I know neither of us will be doing that.). But maybe some veggie broth? I tried the Tbsp of chia seeds yesterday in some Bengal Spice tea. It was pleasant
Post by: Sailor Sam on May 04, 2017, 09:48:12 AM
Post by: OurTown on May 05, 2017, 01:51:55 PM
Post by: meadow lark on May 05, 2017, 06:43:56 PM