Author Topic: 12lbs in 8 Weeks...? Realistic or not? Help Me Fitness Gurus! What's Worked?  (Read 6550 times)

Nightwatchman9270

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I'm 5'10 and currently weigh 192.  My goal is to gt down to 179.9 by the time I go on a cruise in Decemeber.  Goal is tone...want to lose the middle age man-flab (I'm 50).  I do work out now so I do have some muscle mass.

How should I do it?  I started with a Keto a few weeks ago and although I initially lost 7 pounds its starting to creep back up.

I thought about switching to just low carb.  I'm not sold on the biochemisty of the Keto diet.

Typically I do 1-2 high intensity exercise classes (Orange Theory) a week, then 2 days of weights (Chest and back one day, Shoulders and Arms another day)

I also am thinking about starting intermittent fasting (8-16) as well.  HELP!

Metalcat

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Well...there's weight loss and then there's fat loss.

A lot of initial weight loss when starting a diet is water loss from reducing bloating. As for fat loss, you would need to run a consistent 750 calorie deficit every day to lose 12lbs of fat.

"Tone" usually just means having muscle with a low enough body fat covering it to be able to see it. So if you have fat covering your existing muscle, you will need to lose that fat in order to see it.

However, your body won't magically gain muscle while losing fat, it doesn't really work that way.

So if the amount of fat is really the main factor holding you back from your goal of looking "toned", then focus on running a calorie deficit to the amount of negative 750 calories every single day if you think 12lbs is what you need to lose to achieve the result you want.

That's a big deficit to sustain, so be careful with rebound binge eating, which is a common problem and can easily wipe out a week's worth of deficit in one sitting.

Losing fat is a lot like paying down debt. You only have so much surplus in a day that you can bank beyond what you need to survive and beyond what you need to be happy.

Just like paying down debt, it's the little daily things that add up. The sugar in your coffee, the afternoon muffin, the creamy dressing, and the single glass of wine at night. That's well over 700 calories right there, and none of it is meals.

Go for the low hanging fruit first before trying things like fasting. You may be able to cut an enormous amount of calories just by paying attention and logging what you are eating.

Losing weight, like saving money really isn't complicated, it's just difficult to actually do.

Nightwatchman9270

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All true stuff.  Those are good reminders.  There isn't much low hanging fruit except alcohol.  I'm gong to try to totally abstain for the next few days.  Saturday I have a social function I probably will have a few drinks to I guess I need to bank a good deficit beforehand.  I eat NO refined carbs already, bread, muffins, cake. NO SUGAR. I feel as though maybe I haven't been as careful with Macros interms of total calories.  I'm guessing the blue cheese dressing, chicken salad (3 gm carbs) would be ok but I might not be a mindful of portion control as I shold have.

Boofinator

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It looks like you are eating fairly healthy and getting good high-intensity exercise. Have you considered adding one or two days of cardio (jogging, biking, or swimming)? I find those activities as the easiest way for me to lose weight, even when I don't want to lose weight.

Morning Glory

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My DH has lost 96 lbs since January by doing intermittent fasting and weight lifting. No cardio at all besides a walk. He eats between noon and 8 pm only, and drinks a couple protein shakes per day, but otherwise eats regular food. He does a full body weights workout every other day. He started at more than twice your weight though, so I really have no idea whether your timeframe is realistic. The only concrete suggestion I have is to add legs to your weight lifting routine.

Metalcat

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All true stuff.  Those are good reminders.  There isn't much low hanging fruit except alcohol.  I'm gong to try to totally abstain for the next few days.  Saturday I have a social function I probably will have a few drinks to I guess I need to bank a good deficit beforehand.  I eat NO refined carbs already, bread, muffins, cake. NO SUGAR. I feel as though maybe I haven't been as careful with Macros interms of total calories.  I'm guessing the blue cheese dressing, chicken salad (3 gm carbs) would be ok but I might not be a mindful of portion control as I shold have.

Not eating certain food groups is not the same as eating a calorie restricted diet. It doesn't matter how many grams of sugar there are in a meal if there's 40g of fat.

Low hanging fruit doesn't just mean "bad foods".
I actually started losing weight a lot faster once I switched away from a low carb diet. I was eating a lot of fats before and found it hard to cut more calories.

It's also important to know that eating well for your body is not the same as eating to lose weight quickly.

Eating a sustainable, healthy diet won't make you lose weight unless you have a lot of excess weight to lose. Unless you are a weight that requires a huge amount of calories to sustain, you will lose very very slowly because you will only run a small daily deficit by eating well.

When I was obese, I could lose weight just by contemplating eating less. Now that I'm a low-healthy BMI, I have to be very proactive to lose even 5lbs.

You obviously have a portion control problem because you've been eating enough to sustain your current weight, unless you drink enough alcohol to make up the calories needed to maintain what you've got.

I must say though, I don't quite understand the rationale of eating low carb if you drink alcohol...??? A dish of quinoa and beans with veggies will have a lot less calories than the same volume of meat and fatty sauce. The carb grams just don't matter unless you are aiming for ketosis, which you obviously aren't if you are drinking alcohol regularly.

The margins between a small deficit and a small overage are extremely extremely narrow. That's like living a nice, middle class life with a 5-10% savings rate. You'll reach FI eventually, but it will take decades, and if you aren't careful, just a few mishaps along the way will throw you into debt.

To run a major deficit, its more like ERE style where you analyze EVERYTHING, and cut every single spending corner possible.

If you are seriously trying to cut over 700 calories a day, not only will you have to look at portions of everything, you also can't afford "a few drinks" with friends. A few drinks is easily several hundred calories, which means that you not only need to cut 750 from each day of the week before that, you need to cut an additional ~100 each day to compensate for just the alcohol, and that's assuming you eat nothing at this event.

Just like ERE style frugality, more extreme calorie restriction also involves fitting in less socially with people, as a lot of socializing involves both spending and consuming calories.

You only have two choices, either hunker down and be extremely serious about calorie restriction, or choose a more moderate approach and accept a more moderate timeline.

There is no magic diet that will make this faster or easier. Losing weight can either be slow, comfortable and easy, or it can be fast and require incredible discipline.
Just like cutting spending. 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 08:36:56 AM by Malkynn »

CowboyAndIndian

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My DH has lost 96 lbs since January by doing intermittent fasting and weight lifting.

+1 for Intermittent fasting.

If you want to understand the science behind it, watch Dr. Jason Fungs series on Youtube (Part 1 of 6 is here https://youtu.be/YpllomiDMX0).

As far as food goes, I hope you have cut out soda and sweets and alcohol.

Weight loss should not be a temporary change in lifestyle but a lifelong change in eating and exercise habits.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 08:37:36 AM by CowboyAndIndian »

techwiz

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I agree with the advice already given.
I don't think getting the tone look you want in 8 weeks is realistic and would like require abdominoplasty (tummy tuck) to get results that quickly. 


Getting surgery is not something I would recommend as it's expensive, has risks and even if successful the results would not last unless lifelong change in eating and exercise habits went with it.


Nightwatchman9270

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All true stuff.  Those are good reminders.  There isn't much low hanging fruit except alcohol.  I'm gong to try to totally abstain for the next few days.  Saturday I have a social function I probably will have a few drinks to I guess I need to bank a good deficit beforehand.  I eat NO refined carbs already, bread, muffins, cake. NO SUGAR. I feel as though maybe I haven't been as careful with Macros interms of total calories.  I'm guessing the blue cheese dressing, chicken salad (3 gm carbs) would be ok but I might not be a mindful of portion control as I shold have.

Not eating certain food groups is not the same as eating a calorie restricted diet. It doesn't matter how many grams of sugar there are in a meal if there's 40g of fat.

Low hanging fruit doesn't just mean "bad foods".
I actually started losing weight a lot faster once I switched away from a low carb diet. I was eating a lot of fats before and found it hard to cut more calories.

It's also important to know that eating well for your body is not the same as eating to lose weight quickly.

Eating a sustainable, healthy diet won't make you lose weight unless you have a lot of excess weight to lose. Unless you are a weight that requires a huge amount of calories to sustain, you will lose very very slowly because you will only run a small daily deficit by eating well.

When I was obese, I could lose weight just by contemplating eating less. Now that I'm a low-healthy BMI, I have to be very proactive to lose even 5lbs.

You obviously have a portion control problem because you've been eating enough to sustain your current weight, unless you drink enough alcohol to make up the calories needed to maintain what you've got.

I must say though, I don't quite understand the rationale of eating low carb if you drink alcohol...??? A dish of quinoa and beans with veggies will have a lot less calories than the same volume of meat and fatty sauce. The carb grams just don't matter unless you are aiming for ketosis, which you obviously aren't if you are drinking alcohol regularly.

The margins between a small deficit and a small overage are extremely extremely narrow. That's like living a nice, middle class life with a 5-10% savings rate. You'll reach FI eventually, but it will take decades, and if you aren't careful, just a few mishaps along the way will throw you into debt.

To run a major deficit, its more like ERE style where you analyze EVERYTHING, and cut every single spending corner possible.

If you are seriously trying to cut over 700 calories a day, not only will you have to look at portions of everything, you also can't afford "a few drinks" with friends. A few drinks is easily several hundred calories, which means that you not only need to cut 750 from each day of the week before that, you need to cut an additional ~100 each day to compensate for just the alcohol, and that's assuming you eat nothing at this event.

Just like ERE style frugality, more extreme calorie restriction also involves fitting in less socially with people, as a lot of socializing involves both spending and consuming calories.

You only have two choices, either hunker down and be extremely serious about calorie restriction, or choose a more moderate approach and accept a more moderate timeline.

There is no magic diet that will make this faster or easier. Losing weight can either be slow, comfortable and easy, or it can be fast and require incredible discipline.
Just like cutting spending.

Thanks for the reply, but there is a little bit of a knowledge deficit in your answer.

2 oz of burbon (What I mean by "alcohol") has .06 gm of carbs.  I was doing the keto diet so, yeah 2-4 oz of burbon will not throw me out of ketosis.  I realize there are about 200 extra calories that can be used by the body right away, but that is not going to affect my diet goals.

Your comment about fat intake is all wrong.  Google "keto diet" to better understand what I was trying to do. Eating beans and rice is not part of the keto diet.  75% of your diet comes from fat calories...that explains my fat intake.

Guess I was looking more for people who succeeded in losing that last extra 10lbs and what they did to acheive it.  Wasn't really looking for generalities and platitudes.  But I appreciate all the responses!  Thanks!


Metalcat

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My DH has lost 96 lbs since January by doing intermittent fasting and weight lifting.

+1 for Intermittent fasting.

If you want to understand the science behind it, watch Dr. Jason Fungs series on Youtube (Part 1 of 6 is here https://youtu.be/YpllomiDMX0).

As far as food goes, I hope you have cut out soda and sweets and alcohol.

Weight loss should not be a temporary change in lifestyle but a lifelong change in eating and exercise habits.

It depends on the person's goals.
If they genuinely just want to look leaner for a specific event and have no major concern about sustaining the loss past that event, like actors for roles, then a permanent lifestyle change will be too moderate and slow.

If the goal is to lose and never gain it back, then permanent lifestyle changes are critical as anything temporary runs the risk of reverting back to exactly the previous habits that caused the excess weight in the first place.

They key for people is to actually identify their goals and have a targeted strategy for doing it. If someone wants a healthier lifestyle, they might get frustrated by being unrealistic about the weight loss results. If someone wants big bulging muscles, they might get frustrated that they don't seem to be losing the fat layer that's hiding them.

People tend to just try to "eat better" and add exercise all willy nilly and expect results. Well, they might get great results of improving their health, but their belly fat may not go anywhere if they're already a healthy weight.

My DH exercises at least an hour a day (weights, pilates, biking, running, swimming, and martial arts), drinks very little, and eats a consistent, healthy, portion controlled diet and maintains a low healthy BMI, but if he wants to see his abs, he has to be very strict and realistic about what it takes to reach certain goals.

Failing to understand specific goals and not knowing what it takes to reach them is what leads to frustration and giving up.

If the goal is genuinely one-time, 8 week, rapid weight loss, just for the purposes of looking more "toned" on a boat, that's going to take a non-sustainable level of effort, and run a very high risk of rebound weight gain...probably while on the trip.

mm1970

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My DH has lost 96 lbs since January by doing intermittent fasting and weight lifting.

+1 for Intermittent fasting.

If you want to understand the science behind it, watch Dr. Jason Fungs series on Youtube (Part 1 of 6 is here https://youtu.be/YpllomiDMX0).

As far as food goes, I hope you have cut out soda and sweets and alcohol.

Weight loss should not be a temporary change in lifestyle but a lifelong change in eating and exercise habits.

It depends on the person's goals.
If they genuinely just want to look leaner for a specific event and have no major concern about sustaining the loss past that event, like actors for roles, then a permanent lifestyle change will be too moderate and slow.

If the goal is to lose and never gain it back, then permanent lifestyle changes are critical as anything temporary runs the risk of reverting back to exactly the previous habits that caused the excess weight in the first place.

They key for people is to actually identify their goals and have a targeted strategy for doing it. If someone wants a healthier lifestyle, they might get frustrated by being unrealistic about the weight loss results. If someone wants big bulging muscles, they might get frustrated that they don't seem to be losing the fat layer that's hiding them.

People tend to just try to "eat better" and add exercise all willy nilly and expect results. Well, they might get great results of improving their health, but their belly fat may not go anywhere if they're already a healthy weight.

My DH exercises at least an hour a day (weights, pilates, biking, running, swimming, and martial arts), drinks very little, and eats a consistent, healthy, portion controlled diet and maintains a low healthy BMI, but if he wants to see his abs, he has to be very strict and realistic about what it takes to reach certain goals.

Failing to understand specific goals and not knowing what it takes to reach them is what leads to frustration and giving up.

If the goal is genuinely one-time, 8 week, rapid weight loss, just for the purposes of looking more "toned" on a boat, that's going to take a non-sustainable level of effort, and run a very high risk of rebound weight gain...probably while on the trip.
Yep, pretty much this.

Several years ago I was trying to lose the 2nd baby weight.  For giggles, I gave up wine, wheat, sugar, and fried foods for November.  Notes:
1.  I was only eating 2 servings of carbs per day (like, 1/2 cup rice is a serving).  Wine, wheat, sugar, are all carbs.  Fried foods for me was generally tortilla chips.
2.  I was not eating very many of those particular carbs over a week at all.  Maybe 4-5 total out of the 14, tops.

I had previously been losing 2 lbs a month.  The ONLY thing I did was sub out and eat oatmeal, rice, beans, corn tortillas instead of any of the others.

I lost 7 lbs.

I repeated that a year later.

A few years later, I figured out that it was probably just the wheat.


Anyway, gave up wheat years later and dropped 8 lbs over the space of a few months.  A year later, got injured, gained 8 lbs back.  Still no wheat but maybe an ice cream habit snuck in there.

Since, I've spent about a year back at exercise, but I still have those 8 lbs.  So, what to do?
Nothing.  I've decided nothing.  I cannot really tell where those 8 lbs are situated.  My jeans are a little snugger (I'm a woman), but not hugely so.  For about 6-8 months, I've been lifting weights, where I hadn't before.  So...I look fine?  I mean, a little fluffy for a 49 yo short muscular female.  If I wanted to be "ripped", I would probably need to aim to lose 4-5 lbs.

But why?  I really could go 100% clean and give up ice cream and sugar completely, and start counting calories again...but I'm not sure it's worth the 5 lbs.  Plus, I'll never be ripped anyway - I've got cellulite and loose belly skin from that pregnancy.  Those 5 lbs fill it out.

TacheTastic

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The only concrete suggestion I have is to add legs to your weight lifting routine.

I want to highlight this.

Is there a reason that your weights sessions neglect the largest muscles in the body?

Nightwatchman9270

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Well I already incorporate lunges and squats two days a week.  Plus I have a p90x plymoetrics routine that does a lot of jump squats and lunges.  What else do you suggest?

mm1970

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Well I already incorporate lunges and squats two days a week.  Plus I have a p90x plymoetrics routine that does a lot of jump squats and lunges.  What else do you suggest?
Are you doing them weighted or with body weight?

use2betrix

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In terms of the number on your scale, what you eat makes really no difference. How many calories you eat are going to change the number on the scale. Often people lose weight by switching to Atkins, Keto, etc., simply because they eat less of the new foods and cut out all the calorie dense blood sugar spiking garbage that they were eating before. It’s not that 500 calories of steak is going to make you lose any more lbs than 500 calories of ice cream.

What you eat makes a difference in how you feel energy wise, how full you feel, whether you retain muscle, lose muscle, etc.

I have a coworker that is always trying to diet by eating less “junk.” Oh boy has he picked up a habit of celery and peanut butter though! Not realizing that just tbsp of peanut butter has about as many calories as 2-3 SERVINGS of oatmeal! Let alone he is having probably 6-8 tbsp at a time pretty easily as his “snack.” He has definitely been packing on the pounds. I don’t often give unsolicited advice, and have refrained.

If you truly want to lose weight, guaranteed, you need to count your calories. You need to get a baseline of calories needed to maintain, then cut from that based on your goals.

My wife breaks up our macros/calories for most all our meals. We cheat occasionally, but they are typically somewhat considered. We have been eating like this and breaking down our meals for nearly a decade. It is incredibly easy once you get a routine, a baseline of standard meals, etc.

This is a sample of how we break things down that I’ve posted elsewhere on here. Here’s a daily shake we have, I drink 2/3, she has 1/3.


Daily Shake:
* 1 scoop vanilla protein     P:24g   F:1g   Carb:3g   Calorie:120
* 1 cup egg whites     P:26g   F:0g   Carb:0g   Calorie:133
* 2 cups almond milk     P:2g   F:5g   Carb:2g   Calorie:60
* 1 banana     P:0g   F:0g   Carb:27g   Calorie:105
* 4 tbsp flax seed     P:6g   F:12g   Carb:8g   Calorie:140
* 3 cup chopped kale leaves     P:9g   F:2g   Carb:8g   Calorie:99
* 2 medium carrots     P:1g   F:0.3g   Carb:11.7g   Calorie:50
* 1 cup blue berries     P:1g   F:1g   Carb:17g   Calorie:70
* 1 cup strawberries     P:0g   F:0g   Carb:13g   Calorie:50
* 4 tsp spirulina powder     P:8g   F:0g   Carb:4g   Calorie:60
* 1/2 cup shelled edamame     P:12g   F:4.5g   Carb:8g   Calorie:120
* 6 tbsp coconut flakes     P:2g   F:20g   Carb:6g   Calorie:220 (removed 10/6)
* 1 tbsp miso paste     P:2g   F:1g   Carb:4g   Calorie:35
* 2 tsp ground Tumeric     P:0g   F:0g   Carb:0.7g   Calorie:17
* 1/2 tsp ground ginger     P:0g   F:0g   Carb:0.7g   Calorie:3

Total--  Protein:91g   Fat:27   Carb:107g   Calorie:1,062

Gronnie

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All true stuff.  Those are good reminders.  There isn't much low hanging fruit except alcohol.  I'm gong to try to totally abstain for the next few days.  Saturday I have a social function I probably will have a few drinks to I guess I need to bank a good deficit beforehand.  I eat NO refined carbs already, bread, muffins, cake. NO SUGAR. I feel as though maybe I haven't been as careful with Macros interms of total calories.  I'm guessing the blue cheese dressing, chicken salad (3 gm carbs) would be ok but I might not be a mindful of portion control as I shold have.

Not eating certain food groups is not the same as eating a calorie restricted diet. It doesn't matter how many grams of sugar there are in a meal if there's 40g of fat.

Low hanging fruit doesn't just mean "bad foods".
I actually started losing weight a lot faster once I switched away from a low carb diet. I was eating a lot of fats before and found it hard to cut more calories.

It's also important to know that eating well for your body is not the same as eating to lose weight quickly.

Eating a sustainable, healthy diet won't make you lose weight unless you have a lot of excess weight to lose. Unless you are a weight that requires a huge amount of calories to sustain, you will lose very very slowly because you will only run a small daily deficit by eating well.

When I was obese, I could lose weight just by contemplating eating less. Now that I'm a low-healthy BMI, I have to be very proactive to lose even 5lbs.

You obviously have a portion control problem because you've been eating enough to sustain your current weight, unless you drink enough alcohol to make up the calories needed to maintain what you've got.

I must say though, I don't quite understand the rationale of eating low carb if you drink alcohol...??? A dish of quinoa and beans with veggies will have a lot less calories than the same volume of meat and fatty sauce. The carb grams just don't matter unless you are aiming for ketosis, which you obviously aren't if you are drinking alcohol regularly.

The margins between a small deficit and a small overage are extremely extremely narrow. That's like living a nice, middle class life with a 5-10% savings rate. You'll reach FI eventually, but it will take decades, and if you aren't careful, just a few mishaps along the way will throw you into debt.

To run a major deficit, its more like ERE style where you analyze EVERYTHING, and cut every single spending corner possible.

If you are seriously trying to cut over 700 calories a day, not only will you have to look at portions of everything, you also can't afford "a few drinks" with friends. A few drinks is easily several hundred calories, which means that you not only need to cut 750 from each day of the week before that, you need to cut an additional ~100 each day to compensate for just the alcohol, and that's assuming you eat nothing at this event.

Just like ERE style frugality, more extreme calorie restriction also involves fitting in less socially with people, as a lot of socializing involves both spending and consuming calories.

You only have two choices, either hunker down and be extremely serious about calorie restriction, or choose a more moderate approach and accept a more moderate timeline.

There is no magic diet that will make this faster or easier. Losing weight can either be slow, comfortable and easy, or it can be fast and require incredible discipline.
Just like cutting spending.

Thanks for the reply, but there is a little bit of a knowledge deficit in your answer.

2 oz of burbon (What I mean by "alcohol") has .06 gm of carbs.  I was doing the keto diet so, yeah 2-4 oz of burbon will not throw me out of ketosis.  I realize there are about 200 extra calories that can be used by the body right away, but that is not going to affect my diet goals.

Your comment about fat intake is all wrong.  Google "keto diet" to better understand what I was trying to do. Eating beans and rice is not part of the keto diet.  75% of your diet comes from fat calories...that explains my fat intake.

Guess I was looking more for people who succeeded in losing that last extra 10lbs and what they did to acheive it.  Wasn't really looking for generalities and platitudes.  But I appreciate all the responses!  Thanks!

It's not just the carb content (or lack thereof) of the alcohol that matters, it's the fact that alcohol is metabolized by the body different than other things. The liver makes it its #1 priority to get rid of the poison, which means while it is doing that it's not making ketones and you feel like shit.

GuitarStv

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I used to walk around at about 210 lbs and would cut to 197 for wrestling tournaments.  I'd knock 8 lbs off the week before the tournament, and then the remaining 5 the night before the tournament.

If your goal is simply weight loss, you can totally do that.  But you're not going to lose as much fat as you will lose muscle.  If your goal is to hit an arbitrary number for an arbitrary date, awesome!  That's easy.  If your goal is to be healthier (and look better), it's the wrong way to go about things.  For that you want to increase the amount of muscle mass you're carrying around and decrease the amount of fat.  To do that you've got to maintain a good diet and lift heavy weights with compound exercises (squat, deadlift, bench, military press, pull-ups, cleans, etc.)  You may actually gain weight, but you'll lose the belly and will start to see your abs and muscle definition all over your body as the fat disappears.

Metalcat

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Thanks for the reply, but there is a little bit of a knowledge deficit in your answer.

2 oz of burbon (What I mean by "alcohol") has .06 gm of carbs.  I was doing the keto diet so, yeah 2-4 oz of burbon will not throw me out of ketosis.  I realize there are about 200 extra calories that can be used by the body right away, but that is not going to affect my diet goals.

Your comment about fat intake is all wrong.  Google "keto diet" to better understand what I was trying to do. Eating beans and rice is not part of the keto diet.  75% of your diet comes from fat calories...that explains my fat intake.

Guess I was looking more for people who succeeded in losing that last extra 10lbs and what they did to acheive it.  Wasn't really looking for generalities and platitudes.  But I appreciate all the responses!  Thanks!

Well...okay, having lost 70lbs, I know a lot about losing that last extra 10lbs, I did it several times as I hit my "target" weight and then wanted to lose another 10, then another 10, and then another 10, down to being very very lean.

What specifically do you want to know?

Re: alcohol, sorry, I assumed you were having a few drinks at a time on a regular basis. If you are managing your intake to sustain Keto, then ignore my comment. I know A LOT of people who claim to be doing Keto but somehow think alcohol doesn't count. 

Re: fat, with high fat meals, it takes such small volumes to get a calorie overage. I know very well how Keto works, but I personally found it hard to manage large calorie deficits on a Keto diet due to calorie density of high fat foods. Just a table spoon here or there can offset a deficit.

I personally started losing weight a lot faster when I switched to a rice and beans vegetarian diet. I certainly find it a lot easier to cut calories dramatically when eating less fat because I can still eat a decent volume of food.

If I had a lot of weight to lose and a good lead time, I might consider a Keto diet as one of the main advantages is the appetite suppression. However, if I wanted a rapid crash diet for an event, I would go high fiber, low fat, because I find that is the easiest to squeeze the largest daily deficit out of while not feeling overly restricted.

I'm not sure what other specific advice to offer

Nightwatchman9270

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I've kind of dumped the keto diet.  Now just intermittent fasting plus pretty much all vegetables.  No booze at all.  I wish rice and beans would work but that always made me feel hungy.  Rice (at least in the amounts I seem to have to eat) ended up causing me to gain weight.  Same with beans.  I WISH that worked because it is the ultimate mustachian diet...cheap, easy to make, easy to store...there's a reason it is the basis of a lot of third world diets.  RIght now my go to dish is sautee spinach or kale add mushrooms and a LITTLE cheese.  If I don't have time for even that I'll just nuke it and add whatever leftover sauce is in the fridge.  I ate 3 kit kats and 3 milky ways last night :( but I now have no deisre for chocolate whatsoever and will consider that my cheat day.  Today I'm doing a p90x called Plymetrics which is an hour of various flavors of jump squats and lunges.

Anyway after a couple of weeks I found Keto was a bust after the first 5 pounds.  And just eating breakfast sausage and cheese and alfredo sauce can't be good for anyone.

GuitarStv

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And just eating breakfast sausage and cheese and alfredo sauce can't be good for anyone.

Ask Robert Atkins.  Oh wait.  You can't.  He died of heart disease brought on by complications due to his morbid obesity.  :P

Omy

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The trick for me has always been to keep the "junk" out of the house. I would bring the rest of that Halloween candy to the office for public consumption.

use2betrix

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And just eating breakfast sausage and cheese and alfredo sauce can't be good for anyone.

Ask Robert Atkins.  Oh wait.  You can't.  He died of heart disease brought on by complications due to his morbid obesity.  :P

I wrote a 12 page paper on the Atkins diet for a nutrition course I took in college. The Atkins is actually a great diet for obese people to lose the initial weight fast. I don’t believe it’s healthy for a long duration, however. Once the weight is lost, it’s important to find a healthy balanced diet to maintain.

freya

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Nightwatchman, the keto diet is probably your best bet.   Calorie restriction is a really bad idea.  Your body will simply reduce its metabolism, and that effect lasts a lot longer than your ability to stay persistently hungry. I thought I had the deck stacked against me (postmenopausal woman, lightly active, various forms of calorie restriction consistently failed), yet I managed to lose 20 lbs in 3 months with absolutely no bells and whistles:  no fasting, no change in exercise, no supplements except magnesium and switching to lite salt for the potassium.  And a couple of business trips thrown in involving a lot of beer, schnitzel, Cornish pasties, and fish and chips.

Stalls of a week or 2 are not uncommon, per the reddit group (highly recommended for keto questions).  I had a stall like that after I made a "keto" dessert using a lot of erythritol, which is supposed to not be a problem.  Turns out I can't handle more than a small amount.  You also should track your net carbs religiously.  I made myself a fancy spreadsheet in lieu of using popular apps.  Usually you find that your net carb totals were drifting up and that's why you stalled.  Things like spices and supplements add carbs too, don't forget to count those.  There could even be another simple reason:  you're losing fat but gaining muscle due to your weight training.  Try measuring your waist instead.  Or go easy on the exercise...it won't help weight loss if that's your only goal.  The intermittent fasting thing can help if you've checked all these other possibilities, definitely helps that you're a man (it doesn't work well for women).

Also, the initial weight loss is mostly glycogen and water.  You shouldn't expect to lose a lot of fat until you're through the fat adaptation phase - you'll be hungry and thirsty a lot, just keep drinking water and eating fat.  It took me about a month, but it's going to be different for each person.   Once that happens, you'll start dropping weight almost in real time. 

freya

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And just eating breakfast sausage and cheese and alfredo sauce can't be good for anyone.

Actually they are.  Look up the data on saturated fats and animal foods, and you'll find that the more saturated fat you eat, the healthier you are.   The problem is sugar and starch/grains (which are basically sugar).  The current saturated fat is bad dogma came from a couple of dishonestly reported studies by the infamous Ancel Keyes in the 1950s.  Every study since then has failed to prove (and some have actively disproven) his results.  The USDA is still dug in to the old dogma, but eventually they'll have to cave.

The book "The Great Cholesterol Con" by Malcolm Kendrick is a good place to start.  Or, try "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes.  The movie "Fathead" is an easier and lighthearted introduction.

Gronnie

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A couple of comments after reading the last few posts:

1. The Atkins Diet and Keto are different. Keto is high fat, moderate protein, low carb while Atkins is high protein, moderate fat, low carb. The metabolic responses are different.

2. One of the great things I have found with Keto is that my weight loss doesn't seem to slow down much as I lose weight, even if I don't lower intake. I think it was Thomas DeLauer who cited a study in one of his videos recently that showed that on most diets as body weight lowers BMR lowers correspondingly, while on Keto BMR stays mostly unaffected. I know DeLauer is a Keto guy (so probably slightly biased) and I didn't actually go read the study referenced in the video, but it's consistent with my experience.

Ynari

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Nightwatchman, the keto diet is probably your best bet.   Calorie restriction is a really bad idea.
]

Nightwatchman mentioned intermittent fasting in his most recent post. There is no implicit calorie restriction in intermittent fasting, it just restricts the window of time you can eat, though it is not advised in people who have high stress levels (since they both affect cortisol). Though you definitely could do both, and people do.

Intermittent fasting combined with an increase in diet quality (things common to most successful diets: higher quality fats and proteins, more vegetables, less processed foods like PUFAs/sugar/white bread) is a pretty solid approach to losing weight and gaining health, though of course different bodies, brains, and goals mean YMMV. :)

mm1970

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And just eating breakfast sausage and cheese and alfredo sauce can't be good for anyone.

Ask Robert Atkins.  Oh wait.  You can't.  He died of heart disease brought on by complications due to his morbid obesity.  :P
Actually, he fell and hit his head and that's what killed him.  Though he did have heart disease.  And there are disagreements on how overweight he was when he went into the coma after the fall.

https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/11/nyregion/just-what-killed-the-diet-doctor-and-what-keeps-the-issue-alive.html

(not an Atkins fan in general, but he died from a fall)

freya

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Nightwatchman, the keto diet is probably your best bet.   Calorie restriction is a really bad idea.
]

Nightwatchman mentioned intermittent fasting in his most recent post. There is no implicit calorie restriction in intermittent fasting, it just restricts the window of time you can eat,

Indeed that's the case.  However Nightwatchman said he'd given up on keto and was going for what sounded like a calorie restricted approach (eating only vegetables).  Even if he kept that up for 2 months through the holiday season, which would take a will of steel, the weight would come right back plus more as soon as he quit the diet.

IF might have a role here since NW is a man and has a specific deadline to meet.  Otherwise, I don't understand why people immediately start going high tech when the essence of healthy low carb diets is fundamentally changing the way you eat to align with what your body was built for.   As many have found, you really don't need the bells and whistles to lose weight.  Changing your diet is hard enough on your body all by itself.  I'm a little worried that a lot of people see the keto diet (or any other diet) as a game to be played and won (or lost), and there may be real health consequences to overdoing it.   

GuitarStv

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And just eating breakfast sausage and cheese and alfredo sauce can't be good for anyone.

Ask Robert Atkins.  Oh wait.  You can't.  He died of heart disease brought on by complications due to his morbid obesity.  :P
Actually, he fell and hit his head and that's what killed him.  Though he did have heart disease.  And there are disagreements on how overweight he was when he went into the coma after the fall.

https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/11/nyregion/just-what-killed-the-diet-doctor-and-what-keeps-the-issue-alive.html

(not an Atkins fan in general, but he died from a fall)

You're right, he did not die from heart disease but from a fall.  Thank you for correcting me.

DoNorth

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I'm 41, 5'11, 189 lbs fairly muscular build.  In March, I was about 210.  To lose the weight, I started walking an hour a day, mixed in light weight training, graduated to 30 minutes of HIIT (Max insanity) twice a week and 40 minute jogs twice a week + intermittent 4 minute sessions of Tabata.  The most I rebounded was about 4 lbs during a one week vacation which promptly came off after I returned to my routine for a few weeks. Pretty simple philosophy, but if I know I'm going to eat/drink more or more poorly or both, I motivate myself to workout more during the day to compensate.

No major changes to diet and overall, I eat well, but definitely enjoy 1-2 glasses of wine or beer/night and really no carb restrictions.  I didn't want to pay to get fit and I didn't want to feel like I was being deprived (eg. Keto).  If the muscle is already there, 12 weeks of HIIT should do the trick assuming you eat moderatly well.  If not, push ups, pull ups, dumbbell presses will improve your upper body strength and appearance.

Kem

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I started at 250+ pounds and chronic back pain - cutting out inflammatory foods dropped me to 225.  At this point picking up a bag of salt was not possible.

Keto dropped me another 25, but the side effects are horrid - and may have contributed to some bulging varicose.  The rebound put me around 235.
The weight drop did not minimize the back pain.

I then began tracking macros AND micros using MyFitnessPal app and a scale.
legionathletics.com/macronutrient-calculator works fantastic for resetting the levels every 5 pounds or so. 
....Be super honest with the BFP & Activity levels.  BFP is easiest to determine by comparing photos.
....Walking and steady state cardio do not count towards the activity levels here.  HIIT cardio and strength training do.

Between the macros and HIIT (crossfit makes HIIT easy) I dropped to 165# (October of 2018) while gaining strength over about 2 years.
I believe that the macros adherence account for 90% of the fat loss.
At this point - 36 year old 5'11 male - you could see all my abs, veins in my arms, and the severe lack of muscles for my frame size.
At this point I still had occasional sever back pain.
At this point my wife joined me in the macro tracking and lost over 50#s until her abs also began to peek through and has had no trouble maintaining the fat loss.

Switched to a bulking macros diet and strength via crossfit quickly climbed, however I still had some persistent background back pain.

Found Starting Strength Basic Barbel training which has greatly reduced my time in the gym while drastically increased my strength and I have ZERO back pain.
I am now up to 210# and about 18% body fat.  I do not follow the milk suggestion, but instead follow macros.

Also note that I cook the entire families meals for the entire week over a couple hours on Sunday.  This makes pre-portioning of fantastic foods ready to go with minimal waste.  On a full bulking diet, our per week food cost/person (including an occasional dinner out night) is $37.  Staples are coffee, cooked cold white potato dishes, roasted sweet potatoes and squash, black beans, beef or pork, chicken breast, salmon, misc. greens, chickpeas, nuts, misc. fruits, etc.   

...

If I want to most efficiently loose fat over a 12 week period
1 - Do HIIT cardio M/W/F in the mornings on an empty stomach (water and coffee ok).  This will burn a lot of calories and trigger an efficient uptake of nutrients.  Immediately after have at least 30% of your macros. 
2 - Do Barbell weight training M/W/F in the late afternoon if able.  If not, aim for push-ups / pull-ups / dips scaled to your level.  This will reduce the muscle loss.
3 - drink LOTS of water to flush out toxins - which the breaking down fat stores in great quantities.  Plus the exercise may release some excess protein into your blood which you want out and not sitting in your kidneys. 
4 - aim to eat all your macros in a 6 hour window each day.  Do not scrimp on your micros (salts, calcium, magnesium, potassium, etc - supplement if necessary for these - which can be cheap - sanitized powdered egg shells, nu-salt, etc).
5 - take a full day fast on Saturday - stick to lots of water (and a coffee) - help flush out the excess toxins.  You will not believe how alert and energetic you'll feel on this day!  WALK at least 2 miles, preferably more this day.
6 - sunday is a time to cook and meal prep for the week. 


...

improving your health is NO different that improving your finances and many of the concepts work using the exact same principles.  You need to have clear designed goals to reach (in your case, loose 10 pounds (of fat?), then set out logical stepping stones to reach the goals.  Each stepping stone should be re-examined occasionally to determine if a more efficient path exists then make small tweaks until you find the path that intrudes on your comfort zone so that you can grow ;)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 11:13:51 AM by Kem »

Nightwatchman9270

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Thanks SO much!  I'm trying intermittent fasting doing 16/8.  Plus low carb.  I am working out every day.  twice a week what I would call HIIT...orange Theory (one hour of tread/rower/weights with little breaks, typically I am burning 750-920 calories per session)  or P90x Plyometrics.  Twice a week I am doing either Back/Chest or Shoulder/arms.  One day is abs and some lower body.  One day I can't really workout due to work restraints.

Down to 186.2 from 192 so I AM making progress.  Dunno about 180 but I still have another month!

Kem

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Good job on the loss thus far!

Outside of your HIIT (mixed orange theory/p90x) what are your back/chest exercises? 
Your shoulder/arms? 
Your lower body?   

It is easy to do a bunch of accessory work here and have very little impact (other than 'feeling a pump') due to isolated muscle engagement.    Your best bang / lift is whole body large muscle group engagement in the 3x5-5x5 range).    Heavy back squats & deadlifts for back/core/legs.  Standing press and bench press for arms/shoulders/core.  Chinups/dips for arms/shoulders/back.

(do have some coaching for form check if you've not been doing so).

If I didn't have access to a power rack and barbells I'd instead opt for at least 50 push ups, 25 pull ups (or inverted table rows) , and 100 lunges completed for time 3x/week.  Preferably with a weighted backpack.  For overhead I'd do inverted wall climbs and holds for time.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 07:53:15 AM by Kem »

freya

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Nice job Nightwatchman!

Once you're on keto and fat adapted, 6 lbs in a month should be almost automatic as long as you don't go overboard on fat.  Track your macros (net carbs, protein, fat, and estimated total calories) religiously.   As a small postmenopausal woman, i.e. the worst possible demographic for weight loss, 1.5 lbs/week is easy with none of the bells and whistles you've added on.

Exercise is good, but I chose to ignore that for two reasons.  First, plenty of studies have not shown any benefit of exercise to accelerate weight loss - basically it's a myth that will not die, with zero science behind it.  Diet is the one and only way to lose weight.  Second, two major life changes at the same time are harder to manage than one, and with my limited time available I wanted to focus on getting the diet right.

My major recommendation apart from what you're doing now:  try to avoid diet disruptions.  I've been stalled for 3 weeks now due to a business trip followed by visits from friends & dinners out on the next two weekends.  Gotta avoid that stuff if you can.  I know it's theoretically possible to maintain keto in such circumstances, but not so much when you have limited time & options.

Boofinator

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First, plenty of studies have not shown any benefit of exercise to accelerate weight loss - basically it's a myth that will not die, with zero science behind it.  Diet is the one and only way to lose weight.

It's not a myth, though you would be correct by stating that diet is vastly more important to weight loss than exercise. Additionally, you might even add that exercise appears to be less effective at weight loss due to the addition of muscle mass, but that's irrelevant, because it's not actually weight loss we're after, it's fat loss (wrestlers trying to make the cut excluded). Here's study after study that focused on exercise and ignored diet, all coming to the same conclusion:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27914305
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27792271
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30138475
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28836987

Needless to say, the reader can keep clicking the "Similar Articles" link seemingly forever....

I agree with the rest of your points.

Kem

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Agreed that the lifestyle nutrition (macro/micro) is the majority controller of WEIGHT loss.

You do have other levers to accelerate this - but you really do not want to loose lean mass in the process.  I've read many scientific studies that confirm that exercise has an impact on FAT loss - specifically HIIT and heavy Weight training.

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/realistic-training-goals/

https://www.issaonline.com/blog/index.cfm/2016/3-science-backed-methods-for-losing-fat

my 2c

freya

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First, plenty of studies have not shown any benefit of exercise to accelerate weight loss - basically it's a myth that will not die, with zero science behind it.  Diet is the one and only way to lose weight.

It's not a myth, though you would be correct by stating that diet is vastly more important to weight loss than exercise. Additionally, you might even add that exercise appears to be less effective at weight loss due to the addition of muscle mass, but that's irrelevant, because it's not actually weight loss we're after, it's fat loss (wrestlers trying to make the cut excluded). Here's study after study that focused on exercise and ignored diet, all coming to the same conclusion:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27914305
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27792271
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30138475
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28836987


I'm always open to seeing studies that refute my own conclusions (based also on studies), but - none of these do that.   None of them show significant benefits of diet + exercise vs diet alone for fat loss.  All but the first study do not address diet at all.    You have to read the methods & actual results not just the abstract - I may have the advantage there since I have institutional access to the full articles.

Exercise is good for lots of reasons - but not for the fat & weight loss that the OP is after.  That's because weight loss is not a matter of calories in minus calories out.  It's about fat homeostasis, which you can only alter by changing the dietary triggers for the hormones that control this such as insulin, ghrelin, and leptin.  Highly recommend Gary Taubes' book "Good Calories, Bad Calories" for a detailed explanation.

Kem

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You can spend months reading such studies here: https://www.researchgate.net/search/
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 09:55:22 AM by Kem »

Boofinator

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I'm always open to seeing studies that refute my own conclusions (based also on studies), but - none of these do that.

Would you care to point us in the direction of the studies supporting your argument? Because based on the studies provided, the only variable was amount of exercise, and the result time after time was weight loss in obese people. Did exercise cause a statistically significant improvement in the experimental group's diet that masked the true cause of the weight loss? Possible, but doubtful. Call me Thomas.

Nightwatchman9270

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Just an update....down to 181.6!  Fasting seems to be a winner.  Not too surprising really.  It really is interesting seeing how little food you really "need"  to feel well and function throughout the day.  Don't think I'll hit 179.9  in the next four days, but anything under 183 is a win as far as I'm concerned.

freya

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Great to hear, nightwatchman!

To Mr. Thomas above:  this article provides a good summary of why exercise is only minimally helpful for losing weight, and will point you to the right studies:

https://www.vox.com/2018/1/3/16845438/exercise-weight-loss-myth-burn-calories

and also see:

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11518804/weight-loss-exercise-myth-burn-calories

In a nutshell:  the calories you burn during exercise pale in comparison to your basal metabolic rate, and you are likely to compensate for the transient increase in effort by reducing activity and increasing food intake afterwards. You are much better off going for the major cause of weight gain:  hormones.   The reason that high fat, low carb diets work is that high carb diets screw up your hormones, such as insulin and leptin.  The weight loss then just happens naturally.

I also suspect that once you've demonstrated your inability to tolerate a high carbohydrate intake (or what many would consider a normal intake), the damage done by years of eating that way may be permanent.   I find that I can't tolerate more even a rare carb or sugar laden treat without seeing consequences on the scale.  And, exercise appears to make zero difference.

Kem

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Nice work!

GuitarStv

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Great to hear, nightwatchman!

To Mr. Thomas above:  this article provides a good summary of why exercise is only minimally helpful for losing weight, and will point you to the right studies:

https://www.vox.com/2018/1/3/16845438/exercise-weight-loss-myth-burn-calories

and also see:

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11518804/weight-loss-exercise-myth-burn-calories

In a nutshell:  the calories you burn during exercise pale in comparison to your basal metabolic rate, and you are likely to compensate for the transient increase in effort by reducing activity and increasing food intake afterwards. You are much better off going for the major cause of weight gain:  hormones.   The reason that high fat, low carb diets work is that high carb diets screw up your hormones, such as insulin and leptin.  The weight loss then just happens naturally.

I also suspect that once you've demonstrated your inability to tolerate a high carbohydrate intake (or what many would consider a normal intake), the damage done by years of eating that way may be permanent.   I find that I can't tolerate more even a rare carb or sugar laden treat without seeing consequences on the scale.  And, exercise appears to make zero difference.

Your basal metabolic rate is not a fixed number determined by God that you're powerless to change.  In fact, it's relatively easy to change . . . through exercise.  If you put on 10 lbs of muscle (which, for the average sedentary person is not hard to do) you will shift your BMR significantly.  An lb of muscle burns 6 calories per day when you're completely sedentary (https://www.ncsf.org/enew/articles/articles-poundofmuscle.aspx).  If we assume an average caloric intake of 2000 calories a day, that 10 extra pounds of muscle increases your BMR by 3%!  Of course, this amount is over and above the calories burned by doing the exercises that lead to the muscle gain in the first place, which are magnitudes higher.  The person who wrote the articles you linked appears to be ignorant of this fact.

Your metabolism remains at a higher rate for an extended period of time after you exercise, particularly after large/intense movements like compound joint strength training work.  The excess postexercise oxygen consumption that you experience after a hard workout raises your BMR by about 4% (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10939877) over and above the benefit you get from the additional muscle mass that you've built . . . and lasts from 10 hours to a couple days depending on the person doing the exercise and intensity level.

The type of exercise that gives the most bang for your buck when it comes to working out is not addressed in those articles -  high intensity exercise.  High intensity exercises burn more calories while you're doing them, in a much shorter period of time.  But usually sedentary folk are unable to push their exercise level to a high intensity . . . which is why someone who tries exercising for a month or so, will not get as big a benefit as someone who is active over a longer period of time (years).

Don't get me wrong . . . diet is very important to lose weight.  But exercise is also important.  We just showed how the average sedentary person can increase their BMR by about 7% through exercise . . . and this doesn't count the calories burned doing the exercise itself!


Also . . . A high carb diet doesn't have to fuck with your insulin as long as you're not an idiot.  Stay away from garbage food.  There are many high carb foods that won't mess with your hormones:  Bran cereals, Apples, Oranges, Kidney beans, Black beans, Lentils, Wheat tortillas, Carrots, Pearled barley, Brown rice, Oatmeal, Bulgur, many whole grain breads/pastas, etc.  Eat them.  No need to cut out carbs entirely.  A donut counts as a carb, but not all carbs are donuts.

Boofinator

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Great to hear, nightwatchman!

To Mr. Thomas above:  this article provides a good summary of why exercise is only minimally helpful for losing weight, and will point you to the right studies:

https://www.vox.com/2018/1/3/16845438/exercise-weight-loss-myth-burn-calories

and also see:

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11518804/weight-loss-exercise-myth-burn-calories

In a nutshell:  the calories you burn during exercise pale in comparison to your basal metabolic rate, and you are likely to compensate for the transient increase in effort by reducing activity and increasing food intake afterwards. You are much better off going for the major cause of weight gain:  hormones.   The reason that high fat, low carb diets work is that high carb diets screw up your hormones, such as insulin and leptin.  The weight loss then just happens naturally.

I also suspect that once you've demonstrated your inability to tolerate a high carbohydrate intake (or what many would consider a normal intake), the damage done by years of eating that way may be permanent.   I find that I can't tolerate more even a rare carb or sugar laden treat without seeing consequences on the scale.  And, exercise appears to make zero difference.

Who's this Mr. Thomas you speak of? Ah, the still-doubtful one. :)

If you look back through my earlier comments, I agreed wholeheartedly that diet is vastly more important than exercise. My only quibble was in saying it had zero role. The articles you linked to appear to support this fact.

I think we agree on the main point, and simply disagree on a very minor one. If someone wants to lose weight, they need to focus first-and-foremost on diet.

GreenQueen

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Intermittent fasting is pretty amazing and involves less thinking/planning...

My partner and best friend both do intermittent fasting. Best friend started a year ago, 16-8 skipping breakfast. Lost a ton of weight, mostly from bloating/sugar-cravings, has way more energy and mental clarity. Always looked good, but is trim and strong now.

Partner doing 16-8 with no eating between 4pm and 8am for 2 months now. He's down 10 lbs and feels so much better. He also was already in great shape but is more toned now and so happy to "not spend so much time trying to digest unneeded food." I plan to do this after I have our second kid next year.

Good luck!