Author Topic: Zombie retirement and the Roth stepladder: Calculating Roth conversions?  (Read 3449 times)

cschx

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Disclaimer: I'm used to having H&R Block do my taxes for me. Working on changing that starting this year. Any guidance from those more experienced would be much appreciated. Specifically, I need some advice on how to optimize my use of Roth conversions. I was inspired by this article from Kitces:

https://www.kitces.com/blog/end-of-year-roth-conversions-and-capital-gains-harvesting-paying-taxes-to-save-taxes/

My basic saving strategy since getting hip to this tax-deferred stuff about eight months ago has been something I've come to think of as "zombie retirement," in the sense that I'm living on a small fixed income while continuing to work full time. This is because I'm maxing out a 403b and a 457b and a traditional IRA on a salary of less than $60k. I front load my contributions and take zero paychecks for nine months out of the year, exempt myself from tax withholding because I owe no income tax on the remainder, then get three or four big fat (well... for me) paychecks at the end of the year. Those go into a high-yield bank account and are eked out over the course of the next nine months. I'm able to do this because I keep my monthly expenses pretty low. (I also have a medium-term goal of meeting 100% of expenses through side income; currently at about 50%.)

Anyway. The goal with the Roth conversions is to implement a "Roth stepladder" if you will: Since my earned income is so low – atypically, during my working years – why not take advantage of it to get the Roth ladder started while I'm still working? If I quit in five years then it will be immediately available. After all those deferrals I'm in the 10% bracket; I actually have negative tax liability due to some bad investments I'm writing off. I only have two years' worth of contributions sitting in the tIRA, but my 403b/457b custodian allows in-plan Roth conversions and, presumably, recharacterizations (though this seems to be a little-used feature of the plan; I had to go through hell just to find someone who could tell me if it was possible). That makes another $36k available. I need to make the conversion(s) by year end, but have until the tax filing deadline to recharacterize.

All this has been kicking around in my head for the past couple of months, but the arrival of November has inspired me to get this figured out real soon. What I'm having trouble with, as a tax novice, is calculating the amount of the conversion that will leave me with little or no tax liability. (Yes, I'm trying to be mindful of the gotchas Kitces mentions in his article, such as the phaseout of federal tax credits and impact on state taxes.) I've used TaxCaster to juggle the numbers a little but I don't think it's giving me the level of detail I need to make this calculation.

Perhaps it's way more complicated than this... but what I would really appreciate is something like "You just need to download IRS form XXX and fill everything out, then subtract line Y from Z and that's the amount you can convert without raising your tax liability." Or if it's not that simple, help me figure out how I should be thinking about it.

Thanks...

seattlecyclone

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Re: Zombie retirement and the Roth stepladder: Calculating Roth conversions?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2015, 03:53:44 PM »
A couple of questions to hopefully spur further thought:

1) Does your 403(b) only support pre-tax contributions, or could you just start contributing Roth funds directly instead of going through the conversion route?
2) Given that you are contributing to a 457(b) plan (which has the special feature of no 10% early withdrawal penalty), what do you intend to gain by converting 403(b) funds to Roth?

cschx

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Re: Zombie retirement and the Roth stepladder: Calculating Roth conversions?
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2015, 07:40:06 AM »
Good questions... I guess my ignorance is showing.

Both plans support Roth contributions, though I've never used that feature. I guess one reason to convert (at least this year) is that I'm close to maxing out both plans and have only one more paycheck I can use to make Roth contributions. Is there a difference tax-wise?

I wasn't aware of the no-penalty aspect of the 457, I'll look into that. Perhaps this whole gambit is irrelevant after all...

MDM

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Re: Zombie retirement and the Roth stepladder: Calculating Roth conversions?
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2015, 04:49:22 PM »
...
I've used TaxCaster to juggle the numbers a little but I don't think it's giving me the level of detail I need to make this calculation.
Perhaps this whole gambit is irrelevant after all...
If you are still interested, and at least somewhat conversant with Excel, you could look at the case study spreadsheet.  It is somewhat similar to TaxCaster in that neither covers all possibilities, but might be useful for estimating purposes.  You could put Roth conversion amounts into "Other ordinary income".

It should provide you "more" details than TaxCaster, but whether that will be "the level of detail [you] need"...?

teen persuasion

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Re: Zombie retirement and the Roth stepladder: Calculating Roth conversions?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 08:53:23 AM »
Can I ask why you are funding a trad IRA rather than Roth IRA if you have negative  tax liability?  We are at zero fed tax after HSA, DH's 401k and kids, so we do Roth IRAs for the diversity.

cschx

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Re: Zombie retirement and the Roth stepladder: Calculating Roth conversions?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2015, 09:12:27 AM »
Good question -- as with seattlecyclone's comment about making Roth contributions within my benefit plan, the answer is that this is my first year using any of these vehicles and I've been playing it by ear. Initially I went all out for the tax deferred options, maxing out everything that was available to me. Mid-year I sold off some old, bad investments, and it's only now (close to year end) that I've started to grasp my new tax situation and the benefits of moving some of those tax-deferred assets into Roths. Just trying to wrap my head around where and how much.

Reynold

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Re: Zombie retirement and the Roth stepladder: Calculating Roth conversions?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2015, 12:20:16 PM »
The only way I've found to do tax calculations with the granularity you are looking for is to use the actual tax software that I'd be using to do my taxes anyway, and vary the inputs to see what happens.  This is especially the case where you may have phaseouts of exemptions and such.  Sometimes I actually then poke around to discover why an output changed unexpectedly, and learn something useful. 

On the bright side, you would need to do most of the same entries for your "real" taxes anyway.  Even if you buy last year's software to do this, and will have to buy next years, if you get them on the right sale they are cheap, and you can import last year's stuff into next year's software and save some time. 

cschx

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Re: Zombie retirement and the Roth stepladder: Calculating Roth conversions?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2015, 03:47:36 PM »
Thanks, Reynold... I had a feeling that would be the answer, and it seems to be the consensus. On the bright side I suppose running my taxes multiple times, in multiple ways is a great way to learn.

Many thanks to everyone who commented on other Roth options; that should help me to approach this stuff with a bit more foresight starting in 2016.

 

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