Author Topic: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?  (Read 19443 times)

ThriftyTechie

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Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« on: October 06, 2015, 09:29:58 AM »
My boyfriend and I both received large pay increases this year and since we live in CA, we will both be paying AMT tax. I don't know how long we will continue to have high incomes.
Now if we were to get married, because of the way US federal tax brackets work, we would be paying thousands, maybe even $10k extra per year.
Would you pay this much to be married?
(Since we are living together, I think eventually the IRS will force us to file as married, so I don't know how long we can avoid it even if we wanted to)

thd7t

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2015, 09:56:19 AM »
You can file separately, even when married.  It's your choice.

teen persuasion

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2015, 10:05:21 AM »
My boyfriend and I both received large pay increases this year and since we live in CA, we will both be paying AMT tax. I don't know how long we will continue to have high incomes.
Now if we were to get married, because of the way US federal tax brackets work, we would be paying thousands, maybe even $10k extra per year.
Would you pay this much to be married?
(Since we are living together, I think eventually the IRS will force us to file as married, so I don't know how long we can avoid it even if we wanted to)

The IRS can't force you to get married, and you can't choose to file as married unless you are legally married.  So if you'd like to remain unmarried for tax purposes you are free to do so.  There are other reasons people choose to marry despite the marriage tax penalty: inheritance rights, medical rights, etc.  Sometimes there is a marriage tax bonus, just depends on the details.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2015, 01:12:29 PM »
Since I make less than the AMT amount, I'm paying thousands a year to NOT be married. It's worth every penny.

Should I commit matrimony and add a dependent, it would reduce my tax burden substantially. But I don't think it justifies the extra nuisance of having a spouse around. I have enough drama with my teenager and don't need another mouth to feed.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 01:15:42 PM by TheGrimSqueaker »

Cathy

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2015, 02:22:20 PM »
The IRS can't force you to get married, and you can't choose to file as married unless you are legally married.

This is true, but "marriage" for federal tax purposes includes, in those states where it exists, "the distinctive American concept of 'common-law marriage'" (Rebecca Probert, The Misunderstood Contract Per Verba De Praesenti *83 (Warwick School of Law Research, November 14, 2009), available on SSRN). See Rev Rul 1958-66 (confirming that "if applicable state law recognizes common-law marriages, the status of individuals living in such relationship ... is, for Federal income tax purposes, that of husband and wife"). See also Rev Rul 2013-17 (confirming recognition of common-law marriages as "the longstanding position" of the IRS).

That said, there is no US state where mere cohabitation can create a common-law marriage. The exact rules vary by state, but in states that authorise so-called common-law marriages, the elements are usually some variant of "(1) A present agreement to be married, (2) cohabitation, and (3) public representations of marriage". Rev Rul 2013-17, footnote 2. However, even if the parties don't explicitly say that they agree to be married, there may be indirect evidence of that; for instance, if the parties casually refer to each other as "husband" and "wife", that could be probative of whether they are married in states that authorise common-law marriage, which would in turn be relevant to whether they are married for federal tax purposes.

In conclusion, even if you have never been formally married, you may be married for federal tax purposes, in which case you are not permitted to file your tax return as a non-married person, subject to the usual exceptions. Note that not all states authorise this kind of informal marriage.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 02:25:17 PM by Cathy »

milesdividendmd

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2015, 07:56:44 PM »
I would pay thousands to be married to my wife. Bargain of the century.

Jack

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2015, 11:54:32 PM »
My wife and I started filing jointly before we actually got married (on the advice of the tax preparer we used that year). It saved us about $3K in taxes, since my wife was a 1099 and I was a full-time student.

LadyMaWhiskers

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2015, 12:32:26 AM »
Of course you never want to think this way, but if you get married, you have the protections of divorce law, should things fall apart. That cuts both ways. If you both have high incomes, spousal support may never be an issue. It could matter for assets.

Is it correct to assume you are an opposite sex couple? I ask because technically any child of your union would be attitubuted to its biological father regardless of marriage. If you are a same sex couple, a child is attributed to the non-biological parent by virtue of the marriage, so if that's the case and children are  in the cards, get married!

rufflina

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2015, 12:47:19 AM »
We're in the same situation in CA, and we're not getting legally married. Had the ceremony with all the works though. We'll get married if it  makes sense for some reason. For now I don't think the benefits are large enough yet.

ThriftyTechie

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2015, 09:42:25 AM »
You can file separately, even when married.  It's your choice.
This is a common misconception. Married filling separately and single have very different tax brackets. For example, the 33% bracket ends at $205,750 vs $411,50 for single. See http://www.irs.com/articles/2015-federal-tax-rates-personal-exemptions-and-standard-deductions and compare the tables.
For two high income earners, we HAVE to pay more tax if we marry.

mamagoose

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2015, 09:44:22 AM »
I would pay thousands to be married to my wife. Bargain of the century.

Applause!

ThriftyTechie

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2015, 09:54:40 AM »
Of course you never want to think this way, but if you get married, you have the protections of divorce law, should things fall apart. That cuts both ways. If you both have high incomes, spousal support may never be an issue. It could matter for assets.

Is it correct to assume you are an opposite sex couple? I ask because technically any child of your union would be attitubuted to its biological father regardless of marriage. If you are a same sex couple, a child is attributed to the non-biological parent by virtue of the marriage, so if that's the case and children are  in the cards, get married!

We totally trust each other in terms of finances, and we're both pretty well off financially, so I'm not worried about that protection.
We are opposite sex (I guess in the Bay Area, it is more common for high income earners to be gay than to be female). We do want a child at some point and that could drive the decision. I think it's still socially awkward to have kids and not be officially married these days.

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2015, 06:40:19 PM »
I basically did--my spouse earns very little and I am the breadwinner.

Jon_Snow

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2015, 10:07:30 PM »
I would pay thousands to be married to my wife. Bargain of the century.

Wins thread.

And ditto, BTW.

MoonShadow

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2015, 10:26:28 PM »
I'm curious how this works, because in my experience, the federal tax code is structured to incentivize marriage.

TomTX

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2015, 06:48:14 AM »
I'm curious how this works, because in my experience, the federal tax code is structured to incentivize marriage.

It incentivizes marriage when only one spouse earns income, and to a lesser extent when there is a large income disparity.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2015, 07:02:54 AM »
In OP's situation, unless there was a compelling, non taxation-related reason to get hitched sooner than later, I would just wait it out until the incomes drop. Can't be that long with two incomes high enough to justify AMT assuming an ER pursuit.

The more interesting question would be, if you are already married, would you get a divorce to save $10k on taxes?

MoonShadow

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2015, 11:56:39 AM »
I'm curious how this works, because in my experience, the federal tax code is structured to incentivize marriage.

It incentivizes marriage when only one spouse earns income, and to a lesser extent when there is a large income disparity.

I see.  Well, that is my situation, so I guess I'm just not close enough to see the issue.  What is the alternative minimum tax in California?

TechMike

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2015, 06:02:50 AM »
I would pay thousands to be married to my wife. Bargain of the century.

Wins thread.

And ditto, BTW.
Completely agreed.

KCM5

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2015, 09:51:46 AM »
I basically did--my spouse earns very little and I am the breadwinner.

Wouldn't you get a tax break in this situation?

Frs1661

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2015, 07:13:34 PM »
I basically did--my spouse earns very little and I am the breadwinner.

Wouldn't you get a tax break in this situation?
Maybe s/he means s/he's subsidizing the spouse, presumably more than s/he's saving in taxes

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Mr Money Mutton Chops

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2015, 08:21:07 PM »
I would offer that this is the wrong way to think about it.  Being married costs much more than just the tax penalty, there is the ring, wedding, honeymoon, kids, kids college, and there is lots of stress.  If your decision is so marginal that you are worried about a few thousand in taxes, then don't get married right now.  You can always change your mind when you want to have a kid.

Yeah, this is exactly what I thought when I saw this. If the tax difference makes an impact, it's not the time.

lostamonkey

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2015, 08:44:49 PM »
I would offer that this is the wrong way to think about it.  Being married costs much more than just the tax penalty, there is the ring, wedding, honeymoon, kids, kids college, and there is lots of stress.  If your decision is so marginal that you are worried about a few thousand in taxes, then don't get married right now.  You can always change your mind when you want to have a kid.

Yeah, this is exactly what I thought when I saw this. If the tax difference makes an impact, it's not the time.

If you are not religious, is there really a huge difference between being married and living common law? If you can (as a family unit) save thousands of dollars by not being married, why wouldn't you do it?

Here in Canada, married couples and couples who are living common law get very similar treatment under the tax code.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 08:51:47 PM by lostamonkey »

dragoncar

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2015, 09:13:00 PM »
I definitely do.  Here's a handy calculator: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/16/upshot/marriage-penalty-couples-income.html?_r=0

And chart:



I hate to start sounding all republicany, but this is definitely contributing to my scaling back at work.  My marginal rate is simply too high to justify the stress involved in working more hours. 

A more accommodating tax regime would definitely increase my "productivity."  But I don't believe that this type of rhetoric is true for the vast majority of people out there.  Mostly for mustachians :-P

edit: by the way, this is also evidence for my theory of spousal coworking.  Imagine that I married a fellow lawyer from law school (I didn't, but plenty of friends did).  We could both start working independently, making say $149k each.  But hey, that results in a $3,700 marriage tax penalty.  On the other hand, if only one of us made $298k, that would be a $12,400 bonus -- a net difference of $16,100 per year!

So say only one of us takes the job.  The work spouse farms out compartmentalized tasks to the home spouse, thereby giving us incredible productivity!  We are immediately promoted and we get giant bonuses.  We come out way ahead and one person gets to work from home. 

Ethical issues aside, it's an idea I've had for a while.  Could work equally well for engineering but it works best for jobs that have quantitative rewards for inputs (like dollar bonus per hours billed).
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 09:28:15 PM by dragoncar »

serpentstooth

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2015, 09:17:38 PM »
In OP's situation, unless there was a compelling, non taxation-related reason to get hitched sooner than later, I would just wait it out until the incomes drop. Can't be that long with two incomes high enough to justify AMT assuming an ER pursuit.

The more interesting question would be, if you are already married, would you get a divorce to save $10k on taxes?

We have discussed it and might, though probably not for a one of $10,000 in extra tax. Once you throw minor children into the mix it gets more complicated, though. I don't want judges, etc. involved in stuff like custody issues.

rufflina

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2015, 11:16:33 PM »
edit: by the way, this is also evidence for my theory of spousal coworking.  Imagine that I married a fellow lawyer from law school (I didn't, but plenty of friends did).  We could both start working independently, making say $149k each.  But hey, that results in a $3,700 marriage tax penalty.  On the other hand, if only one of us made $298k, that would be a $12,400 bonus -- a net difference of $16,100 per year!

So say only one of us takes the job.  The work spouse farms out compartmentalized tasks to the home spouse, thereby giving us incredible productivity!  We are immediately promoted and we get giant bonuses.  We come out way ahead and one person gets to work from home. 

Ethical issues aside, it's an idea I've had for a while.  Could work equally well for engineering but it works best for jobs that have quantitative rewards for inputs (like dollar bonus per hours billed).

dragoncar, that's not quite right. You're comparing tax penalty numbers instead of total tax paid (I've made that same mistake before).

Two single people earning $149,000 each pay $63,849 in taxes total.
Two married people earning $149,000 each pay $67,130 in taxes total. (so ~$3300 marriage penalty)
Two single people where one person earns $0 and the other person earns $298,000 pay $79,033 in taxes total.
Two married people where one person earns $0 and the other person earns $298,000 pay $67,130 in taxes total.

My numbers are from http://taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/marriagepenaltycalculator.cfm

dragoncar

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2015, 01:35:06 AM »
edit: by the way, this is also evidence for my theory of spousal coworking.  Imagine that I married a fellow lawyer from law school (I didn't, but plenty of friends did).  We could both start working independently, making say $149k each.  But hey, that results in a $3,700 marriage tax penalty.  On the other hand, if only one of us made $298k, that would be a $12,400 bonus -- a net difference of $16,100 per year!

So say only one of us takes the job.  The work spouse farms out compartmentalized tasks to the home spouse, thereby giving us incredible productivity!  We are immediately promoted and we get giant bonuses.  We come out way ahead and one person gets to work from home. 

Ethical issues aside, it's an idea I've had for a while.  Could work equally well for engineering but it works best for jobs that have quantitative rewards for inputs (like dollar bonus per hours billed).

dragoncar, that's not quite right. You're comparing tax penalty numbers instead of total tax paid (I've made that same mistake before).

Two single people earning $149,000 each pay $63,849 in taxes total.
Two married people earning $149,000 each pay $67,130 in taxes total. (so ~$3300 marriage penalty)
Two single people where one person earns $0 and the other person earns $298,000 pay $79,033 in taxes total.
Two married people where one person earns $0 and the other person earns $298,000 pay $67,130 in taxes total.

My numbers are from http://taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/marriagepenaltycalculator.cfm

Well being married is non negotiable in this scenario. 

I'm a red panda

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2015, 06:18:22 AM »
If I had to literally write a check for a few thousand dollars at the beginning of the year to remain married to my husband, I absolutely would do it. 

Money isn't everything and my marriage is the most valuable thing in my life.

GuitarStv

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2015, 06:22:08 AM »
I would pay thousands to be married to my wife. Bargain of the century.

Wins thread.

And ditto, BTW.
Completely agreed.

Yep.

brooklynguy

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2015, 07:25:33 AM »
edit: by the way, this is also evidence for my theory of spousal coworking.  Imagine that I married a fellow lawyer from law school (I didn't, but plenty of friends did).  We could both start working independently, making say $149k each.  But hey, that results in a $3,700 marriage tax penalty.  On the other hand, if only one of us made $298k, that would be a $12,400 bonus -- a net difference of $16,100 per year!

So say only one of us takes the job.  The work spouse farms out compartmentalized tasks to the home spouse, thereby giving us incredible productivity!  We are immediately promoted and we get giant bonuses.  We come out way ahead and one person gets to work from home. 

Ethical issues aside, it's an idea I've had for a while.  Could work equally well for engineering but it works best for jobs that have quantitative rewards for inputs (like dollar bonus per hours billed).

At virtually all big law firms (and probably most smaller firms), the net after-tax earnings of two average-performers would exceed the net after-tax earnings of a single high-performer (at least until eligibility for partnership rolls around, by which time the dual-income couple would probably have already achieved financial independence), because, even on a pre-tax basis, there is a declining marginal utility to working additional hours.

Your idea would work best in a non-salaried job, where the quantitative rewards for inputs are on at least a 1:1 basis (i.e., where there is no declining marginal utility to working additional hours).

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2015, 03:04:33 PM »
I basically did--my spouse earns very little and I am the breadwinner.

Wouldn't you get a tax break in this situation?
Maybe s/he means s/he's subsidizing the spouse, presumably more than s/he's saving in taxes


Exactly. I pay less income tax, but I spend money supporting him. ;)

Regarding the OP: If you are committed to each other and are just wondering whether to take the legal step, the thing to do is run the numbers through Turbotax for each scenario. I know two couples who lived together for years and finally decided to marry purely for the tax benefit. One couple made a point of getting married on Dec 31.

Tabaxus

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2015, 09:00:27 PM »
While the marriage penalty sucks and should be eliminated (as should the marriage bonus--they're both effing ridiculous), the amount of other legal protections you give up by not being married makes it not worth it, in my view, unless you seriously go and get everything locked down.  Even then, there are certain things (e.g., survivorship benefits) that you just can't contract around.  And I honestly do think that it's borderline-irresponsible to remain unmarried if there are kids in the mix:  even if the kid won't be stigmatized for it, there are too many "bad things" that can happen.

Something else to consider--depending on where you travel in the world, not being married can be a liability, particularly if you are in highly-religious areas (e.g., middle east). Because my spouse and I do not have the same last name, we were required to produce a marriage certificate when we checked into a hotel on a recent trip.  Without that, I don't think they would have let us check into the room.  This is obviously a super-marginal issue, but I thought it was interesting when it happened.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2015, 06:57:04 AM »
Yes. Thousands of dollars is dogshit compared to being married to my wife.

But, you can choose like a poster above to be socially married, which is the important part, and not tell the government you're married.

maizefolk

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2015, 07:26:11 AM »
edit: by the way, this is also evidence for my theory of spousal coworking.  Imagine that I married a fellow lawyer from law school (I didn't, but plenty of friends did).  We could both start working independently, making say $149k each.  But hey, that results in a $3,700 marriage tax penalty.  On the other hand, if only one of us made $298k, that would be a $12,400 bonus -- a net difference of $16,100 per year!

So say only one of us takes the job.  The work spouse farms out compartmentalized tasks to the home spouse, thereby giving us incredible productivity!  We are immediately promoted and we get giant bonuses.  We come out way ahead and one person gets to work from home. 

Ethical issues aside, it's an idea I've had for a while.  Could work equally well for engineering but it works best for jobs that have quantitative rewards for inputs (like dollar bonus per hours billed).

At virtually all big law firms (and probably most smaller firms), the net after-tax earnings of two average-performers would exceed the net after-tax earnings of a single high-performer (at least until eligibility for partnership rolls around, by which time the dual-income couple would probably have already achieved financial independence), because, even on a pre-tax basis, there is a declining marginal utility to working additional hours.

Your idea would work best in a non-salaried job, where the quantitative rewards for inputs are on at least a 1:1 basis (i.e., where there is no declining marginal utility to working additional hours).

I don't think this works that way (but correct me if I'm wrong). A married couple with $298k/year in total income (filing jointly) pays the exact same amount whether that income is one person earning $298k/year or two earning $149k/year. To make the numbers simple, let's say that's $100k in taxes. What the marriage bonus/penalty numbers mean is simply that two unmarried people making $149k/year would owe only $96,300 in taxes, while a single person making $298k would owe $112,400 in taxes. Changing the income distribution within the members of the married couple doesn't influence how much tax they pay, just the number you're comparing to (how much tax they would have payed if they weren't married.)

...although I suppose going with the one person making twice as much would save money on social security taxes. 6.2% of the first $118,500 of income, so the one working spouse making twice as much would pay $7,347 in social security tax, and two spouses would owe $14,694 so allocating all the income to one person gets you more than $7,000 in tax savings. If the spouses were self-employed (which is the case in a lot of jobs where there is a close to 1:1 ratio of inputs to rewards which brooklynguy mentions above) the extra bite SS takes out of your paycheck for the first $118,500 doubles to 12.4% so you'd be saving almost $15,000 in social security tax by only have one spouse draw all the income (assuming total income for the couple is at least $237,000).

brooklynguy

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2015, 12:03:23 PM »
Changing the income distribution within the members of the married couple doesn't influence how much tax they pay

I don't think anyone suggested that it does.  Dragoncar's point, I believe, was that the existence of the "marriage bonus" just further enhances the benefits of his proposed strategy for a married couple to operate as (and collectively perform the work of) a single employee, because the single income earned by that super-productive "single" employee would not only be higher (on a pre-tax basis) than the dual income that would be earned by the two individuals working separately (with normal productivity), but would also receive more favorable tax treatment than it would receive if the two individuals were unmarried (unlike the dual income alternative, where the existence of the marriage penalty would cause the dual income to receive less favorable tax treatment by virtue of the marriage).  And my point, in response, was just that, in practice, in a typical big law firm setting (and most other salaried employment settings), the super-productive "single" earner would actually probably not generate higher earnings than the dual earners working as separate (and non-super-productive) employees.

dragoncar

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2015, 01:17:59 PM »
Yeah it was kinda a dead end thought experiment but I'm sure I spent at least one sleepless night thinking about it (I generally spend too much time thinking about crazy ways to game the system that I will never try... Certainly if I spent that time working hard id come out way ahead :-)

maizefolk

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2015, 01:40:37 PM »
Okay, so you were saying if you'd adopted this income concentration plan, it would create tax incentives to getting married, rather than, if you were married, it made sense to adopt the income concentration plan. That makes much more sense. Apologies for the misunderstanding and absolutely nothing wrong with dead end thought experiments, they get me through boring days at the office.

Roboturner

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2015, 01:37:43 PM »
Thought experiment, could you theoretically start an LLC or something with your spouse, say consulting, both work the same billable hours, netting 200k for the year, then "pay" your spouse 50k and yourself 150k and get a tax benefit?

Vilgan

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2015, 01:45:42 PM »
I'm curious how this works, because in my experience, the federal tax code is structured to incentivize marriage.

The federal tax code only incentivizes marriage if you have a stay at home or very low earning spouse. We pay thousands more every year because we are married.

Example: If two people earn 170k and aren't married they'll each be in the 28% tax bracket. However, if they get married then they'll have a huge amount of that taxable in the 33% bracket.

maizefolk

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2015, 04:11:36 PM »
Thought experiment, could you theoretically start an LLC or something with your spouse, say consulting, both work the same billable hours, netting 200k for the year, then "pay" your spouse 50k and yourself 150k and get a tax benefit?

Since your income and your spouse are getting lumped together Federal income tax purposes, I don't think it would matter how you paid out the income earned by the LLC between the two of you. But yes, I think it'd save you a little in self employment taxes since the spouse with $150k would have maxed out their social security payments and their marginal self employment tax would drop from 15.3% (social security plus medicare) to 2.9% (medicare only) while if each spouse earned $100k they'd each pay the higher self employment tax rate on their entire incomes.

The major tax savings potential of your scenario actually come from the frankly ridiculous amount of 401k contributions possible: $18k per spouse from their salary plus the lower of 20% of income or $35k per spouse* contributed by the company. So in that example, the company could earn $200k, the couple could save 18*2 + (200*.2) = $76k  and only owe income tax on $124k for the year, reducing the federal income tax they owe from ~$41k to $~20k (and maybe more in state income taxes!).

*The details: the company can contribute up to 25% of the employee's salary, but those contributions don't count as part of salary for the purposes of the calculation, so this works out to 20% of the total profits the couple's company has available for contribution. The sum of the employee contributions and employer contributions is capped at -- I think -- $53k. 53-18 = 35 left for employer contributions. 

I'm curious how this works, because in my experience, the federal tax code is structured to incentivize marriage.

The federal tax code only incentivizes marriage if you have a stay at home or very low earning spouse. We pay thousands more every year because we are married.

Example: If two people earn 170k and aren't married they'll each be in the 28% tax bracket. However, if they get married then they'll have a huge amount of that taxable in the 33% bracket.

I agree with your example, but to clarify for those who are less familiar with this issue: If a married couple has a combined income of less than $151,200* the amount of tax they're paying is equal to what they would have paid if they were unmarried and had exactly equal incomes and less than they would have payed if they were unmarried and had unequal incomes. So if you make less than 3x the national  average annual household income, being married is always either beneficial or neutral for you on tax day.

Above $151,200 in total income, the tax you pay as a married couple is both more than, less than, and equal to the amount two unmarried people would pay depending on how unequally the income was split between the two single people.

I'm sorry for the somewhat awkward phrasing in the two paragraphs above. I wanted to make it as clear as possible that how equal or unequal the incomes of the members of a married couple are doesn't effect how much income tax they owe at all, just the amount of income tax they would have payed if they weren't married.

*Until this point the federal tax brackets for married filing jointly are 2 times the tax brackets for a single person, but the 28% tax bracket kicks in at less than 2x the single bracket, as do the 33, 35, and 39.6 ones.

Apples

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2015, 08:24:01 AM »
I would offer that this is the wrong way to think about it.  Being married costs much more than just the tax penalty, there is the ring, wedding, honeymoon, kids, kids college, and there is lots of stress.  If your decision is so marginal that you are worried about a few thousand in taxes, then don't get married right now.  You can always change your mind when you want to have a kid.

Getting married can cost nothing more than the marriage certificate (and time off work to go get the darn thing).  The ring doesn't have to happen, and when people do choose to get them they can be any ring, not diamond.  Marriage does not necessarily lead to kids.  And having kids does not obligate you to save for their college.  So I disagree with all of the assumptions you made above.

However, we did the big wedding and nice honeymoon and I have a ring I like and we plan to have kids and pay for their college educations.  And I am thrilled with all of our choices. 

Cathy

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2015, 10:26:55 AM »
Getting married can cost nothing more than the marriage certificate (and time off work to go get the darn thing).

As mentioned in my post above, in some US states, even those costs and associated steps are not necessary. For example, the state of Texas authorises so-called "marriage without formalities", the formation of which does not require any interaction with the government whatsoever. Texas Family Code §§ 2.401 et seq.

Note: I express no view on whether anybody should make use of the statute described above or similar statutes in other states. This post also does not discuss the technical conditions described in the statute or in similar statutes, nor does this post discuss tactical, evidentiary, or other considerations associated with the choice of how to form a marriage. Consult local counsel if you require legal advice on how or whether to form a marriage.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 10:53:04 AM by Cathy »

El Marinero

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2015, 03:55:28 PM »
I'm curious how this works, because in my experience, the federal tax code is structured to incentivize marriage.

The federal tax code only incentivizes marriage if you have a stay at home or very low earning spouse.

This is exactly right.  The tax code seems stuck in the '50s as if all households looked like an episode of 'Leave it to Beaver'.   We might question why.

I've learned a few things over the years:
1) It doesn't always make sense to minimize taxes - there are real-life considerations that might be more important.
2)  Tax laws don't have to make sense - they just need to be the law.


Jack

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2015, 02:57:48 PM »
I'm curious how this works, because in my experience, the federal tax code is structured to incentivize marriage.

The federal tax code only incentivizes marriage if you have a stay at home or very low earning spouse.

This is exactly right.  The tax code seems stuck in the '50s as if all households looked like an episode of 'Leave it to Beaver'.   We might question why.

Why should married couples get a tax advantage if both of them are similarly-high earners?

dragoncar

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2015, 03:31:44 PM »
I'm curious how this works, because in my experience, the federal tax code is structured to incentivize marriage.

The federal tax code only incentivizes marriage if you have a stay at home or very low earning spouse.

This is exactly right.  The tax code seems stuck in the '50s as if all households looked like an episode of 'Leave it to Beaver'.   We might question why.

Why should married couples get a tax advantage if both of them are similarly-high earners?

Why should they get a penalty?

El Marinero

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2015, 08:59:53 PM »
I'm curious how this works, because in my experience, the federal tax code is structured to incentivize marriage.

The federal tax code only incentivizes marriage if you have a stay at home or very low earning spouse.

This is exactly right.  The tax code seems stuck in the '50s as if all households looked like an episode of 'Leave it to Beaver'.   We might question why.

Why should married couples get a tax advantage if both of them are similarly-high earners?

Why should they get a penalty?

Took  the words right out of my mouth.

brooklynguy

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2015, 07:58:29 AM »
Why should they get a penalty?

They shouldn't, but, as maizeman noted in his thoughtful post in the other active thread on this topic, there are competing objectives that are difficult, if not impossible, to simultaneously achieve, so eliminating the penalty would come at the cost of precluding one or both of those (arguably more important, and arguably less important) objectives:

I haven't been able to figure out a tax system that would be able to satisfy more than two criteria from the following list:

A) A progressive tax code where people who earn more pay a higher rate than people who earn less
B) A tax code that only considers the total income from both members of a married couple to calculate their tax liability
C) A tax code what doesn't make marriage a better deal for one person earning X dollars and one person earning $0 than for two each earning .5X dollars.

Right now we have A & B which makes it impossible to achieve C. We could eliminate the "penalty" for married people with equal incomes easily enough, but it'd have the side effect of significantly increasing size of the "bonus" for married people with very unequal incomes so the same issues with penalizing gender equality would remain.

Personally my ideal tax code would have A & C (essentially this would be as simple as eliminating the married filing jointly option and increasing the tax brackets for married filing separately to equal to those for single filers).

dragoncar

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2015, 10:22:19 AM »
Why should they get a penalty?

They shouldn't, but, as maizeman noted in his thoughtful post in the other active thread on this topic, there are competing objectives that are difficult, if not impossible, to simultaneously achieve, so eliminating the penalty would come at the cost of precluding one or both of those (arguably more important, and arguably less important) objectives:

I haven't been able to figure out a tax system that would be able to satisfy more than two criteria from the following list:

A) A progressive tax code where people who earn more pay a higher rate than people who earn less
B) A tax code that only considers the total income from both members of a married couple to calculate their tax liability
C) A tax code what doesn't make marriage a better deal for one person earning X dollars and one person earning $0 than for two each earning .5X dollars.

Right now we have A & B which makes it impossible to achieve C. We could eliminate the "penalty" for married people with equal incomes easily enough, but it'd have the side effect of significantly increasing size of the "bonus" for married people with very unequal incomes so the same issues with penalizing gender equality would remain.

Personally my ideal tax code would have A & C (essentially this would be as simple as eliminating the married filing jointly option and increasing the tax brackets for married filing separately to equal to those for single filers).

Jut replace a) with "A progressive tax code where people households who earn more pay a higher rate than people households who earn less"

Then you can just make the married brackets and cutoff a 2x single

maizefolk

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2015, 11:09:28 AM »
Dragoncar, that's the point I was making when I said "We could eliminate the "penalty" for married people with equal incomes easily enough, but it'd have the side effect of significantly increasing size of the "bonus" for married people with very unequal incomes so the same issues with penalizing gender equality would remain."

There are two separate issues here: i) should marriage always be equal to or better than being single from a tax perspective? and ii) should couples where one spouse makes lots of money and the other little or none get a greater benefit from marriage than couples with relatively equal incomes? I understand lots of married people would argue the answer to the first question is "Yes", but the second question is the concern people raised in the other thread (the tax code penalizes couples with evenly split incomes relative to people with concentrated incomes) and that's how I defined C.

Making all the married tax brackets 2x the single ones means marriage is always better or equal than remaining single (addresses i), but it would still be the case that marriage was a much a better deal from a tax perspective for a person making $300k/year marrying a person making $0 than for two people who are making $150k/year each (fails to address ii).

If you decide the answer to question #1 is "Yes!" there are lots of ways to change the tax code to benefit married people at the expense of single people* ranging from the plausible one you suggest to something ridiculous like a special 15% payroll tax on people of legal age to be married who cannot produce a marriage certificate during the hiring process (which would also have the effect of ensuring no one would ever end up paying more tax as a result of being married). It is tackling the unequal benefits of marriage to couples with different earning splits that is really hard while keeping a progressive tax code and only considering total household income.

*If the change was meant to be revenue neutral, making all the married-filing jointly tax brackets 2x the single brackets would also mean shrinking the brackets or raising the rates, so it'd be essentially redistributing money from single people (whose taxes would have to go up) to married people making more than $172,600/year (the lowest income where the married tax brackets aren't already 2x the single brackets). If it wasn't meant to be revenue neutral, single people would be paying the same taxes they were previously for a smaller set of government services, while married people would be paying less money for fewer government services.

brooklynguy

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Re: Would you pay thousands a year to be married?
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2015, 11:13:01 AM »
Jut replace a) with "A progressive tax code where people households who earn more pay a higher rate than people households who earn less"

Then you can just make the married brackets and cutoff a 2x single

No, that would still leave unsatisfied the objective described in (C) (i.e., a tax code that doesn't make getting married a disproportionately better deal for couples with earnings concentrated in one of them than it is for couples with earnings spread equally across the two of them), which maizeman also noted in the follow-up response to his post in the other thread.

EDIT:  I see maizeman also already responded and made the same point in this thread too.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 11:18:28 AM by brooklynguy »

 

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