Author Topic: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!  (Read 2884 times)

webguy

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Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« on: October 04, 2023, 02:42:59 PM »
Hey guys, I'm trying to figure out something and thought I'd run it by the smartest people I know on the web:

The Situation
  • Married filing jointly, mid-late 30s.
  • We just moved from a zero income tax state to a high income tax state (Minnesota) last month, so for this tax year I qualify as a resident of the zero tax state.
  • My income for the past few years has been high (1M+) and so have been using traditional retirement accounts when possible.
  • I FIREd at the end of last year and so have no income this year, however, I do have investment income. This year it will be around $220-250k between dividends, interest, and rental income. That amount will likely be about the same for the foreseeable future depending on interest rates and dividend amounts.
  • My income will likely go up next year as I start a side hustle, and I will be subject to Minnesota state income tax too indefinitely.
  • We have about $732,000 in traditional IRAs. I am considering whether it makes sense to roll this over into a Roth IRA, as this will most likely be my lowest income year for a long time (maybe ever) and I won't have to pay MN state taxes this year.
  • If we roll it all over then from my understanding we will have to pay regular income tax on all $732,000 of it, plus the $250,000 of other income, so we'd have a taxable income of almost $1M. Using a federal income tax calc, it looks like this would put our taxes at around $325,330 (32.53%). Yikes!.

The Question(s)
  • Does it make sense to
    a) roll all of this over this year?
    b) roll over some of it and do a bit each year?
    c) Or just leave it in traditional and worry about taxes later in life?
  • What other things should I consider here?

If I'm missing any info here then let me know!

Thanks so much in advance for any input or advice.

SeattleCPA

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2023, 03:17:07 PM »
Hey guys, I'm trying to figure out something and thought I'd run it by the smartest people I know on the web:

The Situation
  • Married filing jointly, mid-late 30s.
  • We just moved from a zero income tax state to a high income tax state (Minnesota) last month, so for this tax year I qualify as a resident of the zero tax state.
  • My income for the past few years has been high (1M+) and so have been using traditional retirement accounts when possible.
  • I FIREd at the end of last year and so have no income this year, however, I do have investment income. This year it will be around $220-250k between dividends, interest, and rental income. That amount will likely be about the same for the foreseeable future depending on interest rates and dividend amounts.
  • My income will likely go up next year as I start a side hustle, and I will be subject to Minnesota state income tax too indefinitely.
  • We have about $732,000 in traditional IRAs. I am considering whether it makes sense to roll this over into a Roth IRA, as this will most likely be my lowest income year for a long time (maybe ever) and I won't have to pay MN state taxes this year.
  • If we roll it all over then from my understanding we will have to pay regular income tax on all $732,000 of it, plus the $250,000 of other income, so we'd have a taxable income of almost $1M. Using a federal income tax calc, it looks like this would put our taxes at around $325,330 (32.53%). Yikes!.

The Question(s)
  • Does it make sense to
    a) roll all of this over this year?
    b) roll over some of it and do a bit each year?
    c) Or just leave it in traditional and worry about taxes later in life?
  • What other things should I consider here?

If I'm missing any info here then let me know!

Thanks so much in advance for any input or advice.

Seems like you're too late given you've established your domicile in Minnesota:

https://www.revenue.state.mn.us/part-year-residents

I.e., you're this year a part-year resident of MN and will owe taxes on the income you earned after you established your domicile in MN, no?

secondcor521

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2023, 06:51:53 PM »
You're correct in that anything converted to Roth is treated as ordinary income in the year of the conversion.  (If you have basis in your traditional IRA, which is unusual and you should know if you do, then a pro rata amount of the conversion would not be taxable.)

The income from the conversion adds to AGI, and therefore impacts anything that is calculated from AGI.  This typically includes ACA subsidies, state income taxes, and FAFSA SAI effects.  You probably make too much for ACA subsidies, you already know about state income taxes, and you are too young (probably) for FAFSA for your kids.

The general strategy is to convert in "lower" income years to use up "relatively low" tax brackets.  The thing you have to take a guess at is whether this year is a "lower" income year for you and you have access to "relatively low" brackets to fill up.

Things that determine "lower" include:

1.  If one of you dies much earlier than the other, then the survivor will be likely in a "higher" bracket because the income will be mostly the same but the survivor will be filing Single instead of MFJ.

2.  TCJA expiration in 2026.  Unless Congress acts, tax brackets are getting smaller and rates are increasing on 1/1/2026.

3.  Any future income streams like SS benefits or RMDs will make income "higher" later.  Although with your apparently short high income career, your SS benefits are probably not that big.  Maybe your spouse's SS will be, though?

4.  If you're giving significantly to charity, you can do this in a tax efficient manner with QCDs at age 70.5 or leaving part of your traditional IRA to charity.  In these cases, the tax rate on those donations is 0%, so that would qualify as "lower".

5.  You didn't mention NIIT, but you may be subject to it at some point.  Probably most online federal income tax calculators ignore NIIT, which would be a ~3.8% additional federal tax on part of your income.

6.  You might read up on IRMAA as well.  That will probably impact you at age 65.

7.  Some people save some of their traditional IRA for long term care.  The idea being that if you have high medical expenses, you can deduct those on Schedule A and effectively make those withdrawals tax free.  This mostly works - there is a bit of a loss in that you get the standard deduction anyway, and medical expenses have to exceed 7.5% of AGI to be deductible.

8.  There is sort of a philosophical decision to be made.  Some people prefer to postpone taxes as much as possible, perhaps figuring that they'll die first, or the government will lower taxes, or there will be some loophole they can find and use, or just the pain of paying will be later.  Some people think taxes are going higher and would rather "lock in" their tax bill now.

What I personally do is have a spreadsheet built to approximately calculate my federal income tax burden each year out to age 90.  I then look at the highest rate that I'm likely to see in my lifetime (so I look at the maximum marginal rate between now and about age 85).  I then do a pro forma tax return in December each year and then Roth convert up to whatever that maximum marginal rate will be (or a bit below).  Lather rinse repeat annually.

My personal "hurdle" rate will be different than yours, but the principal is the same:  shift income from higher income years to lower income years.

Oh, and you want to look at marginal rate for each dollar converted.  Sometimes there are tax humps and spikes which can make Roth conversions uneconomical.  The Case Study Spreadsheet by @MDM is great for doing this kind of analysis.

Almost certainly you will find that the answer to your question is to bequeath to charity from your traditional IRA in whatever amount you decide to be charitable.  And then Roth convert a portion of your traditional IRA each year up to some hurdle rate, which for you might be the top of the current 24% bracket (but could be higher or lower based on any of the above factors).

MDM

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2023, 07:07:29 PM »
  • We just moved from a zero income tax state to a high income tax state (Minnesota) last month, so for this tax year I qualify as a resident of the zero tax state.
I.e., you're this year a part-year resident of MN and will owe taxes on the income you earned after you established your domicile in MN, no?
webguy, +1 to SeattleCPA's take.  You'll be a part-year resident of each state, and will have to apportion your income according to Minnesota law.  You'd also have to consider your former state's law if it had an income tax, so at least you are spared that hassle. 

Apportionment usually involves some combination of where you were (e.g., your state of residence when you do a Roth conversion) and where the income came from (e.g., where the rental units are located), but see the MN law for specifics.

webguy

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2023, 02:51:50 PM »
Thanks so much for all the useful info guys, that's all really helpful! That's unfortunate that I didn't know about the part-year resident thing before moving otherwise I would have probably rolled over at least some before then. As I'll have to pay state taxes any way then I might just wait. We're only mid-late 30s and so there's plenty of time to worry about this later and maybe just do a small amount each year for 30 years or something.

Or, as we may never need to really spend this money as we have a sizeable taxable account that we're living off of right now, then if we die without rolling it over then our beneficiaries would inherit it and pay taxes when they withdraw an amount each year at that point right?

secondcor521

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2023, 03:12:42 PM »
Or, as we may never need to really spend this money as we have a sizeable taxable account that we're living off of right now, then if we die without rolling it over then our beneficiaries would inherit it and pay taxes when they withdraw an amount each year at that point right?

Correct.  They would pay ordinary income taxes on the withdrawals.  Under current law most beneficiaries have 10 years to empty the IRA.  Depending on how long you live, how much the traditional IRA grows, how many beneficiaries you have, and what their income tax situations look like, the tax rate they pay could vary widely.  Some people care about that, some don't.

The laws in this area will likely change between now and then, of course.

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2023, 02:40:47 AM »
Minnesota charges 9.85% on income past $261k, and 7.85% just below that bracket.
Federal tax includes net investment income tax is 3.9% on income over $250k (MFJ).
Combine those, and you pay an extra 6% when exceeding $250k income - like with a Roth Conversioon.

Converting the entire thing means paying 51% tax on the last $40k (roughly).  If you limit yourself to $250k converted, you can pay 32% on the last $100k (roughly).
37% IRS + 3.9% NIIT (IRS) + 9.85% state = (roughly) 51%
24% IRS + 7.85% state = (roughly) 32%

At your age, it's 25 years until you can withdraw without penalty from a Roth IRA.  Over those 25 years, do you expect 1-2 more lower income years?  If so, I'd convert $250k now (less income after deductions) and wait for other low income years.


https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/federal-income-tax-brackets
https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/questions-and-answers-on-the-net-investment-income-tax
https://www.house.mn.gov/hrd/pubs/ss/ssindinc.pdf

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2023, 02:46:08 AM »
As an aside, if you're planning to retire earlier than 25 years from now, I hope you're saving some of your income in taxable accounts.  Have you looked into tax-exempt bond funds?  Those need to be state-specific to be exempt from Federal and state tax (the tradeoff being they lack diversification - they're all from one state).

secondcor521

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2023, 12:31:47 PM »
Minnesota charges 9.85% on income past $261k, and 7.85% just below that bracket.
Federal tax includes net investment income tax is 3.9% on income over $250k (MFJ).
Combine those, and you pay an extra 6% when exceeding $250k income - like with a Roth Conversioon.

Converting the entire thing means paying 51% tax on the last $40k (roughly).  If you limit yourself to $250k converted, you can pay 32% on the last $100k (roughly).
37% IRS + 3.9% NIIT (IRS) + 9.85% state = (roughly) 51%
24% IRS + 7.85% state = (roughly) 32%

At your age, it's 25 years until you can withdraw without penalty from a Roth IRA.  Over those 25 years, do you expect 1-2 more lower income years?  If so, I'd convert $250k now (less income after deductions) and wait for other low income years.


https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/federal-income-tax-brackets
https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/questions-and-answers-on-the-net-investment-income-tax
https://www.house.mn.gov/hrd/pubs/ss/ssindinc.pdf

NIIT is 3.8%, not 3.9%.  And it's only on certain types of investment income, not on all income over $250K.

There is also an additional 0.9% additional Medicare tax that can sometimes apply in those ranges, but I don't know much about that.

Best solution is to get a hold of a good tax prep program in December and mock up tax returns with YTD income plus contemplated Roth conversions.  The case study spreadsheet is what I use.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2023, 11:43:01 AM »
NIIT is 3.8%, not 3.9%.  And it's only on certain types of investment income, not on all income over $250K.
I specifically mentioned the Roth Conversion in that sentence.  You are correct on NTTI being 3.8%, but my examples all round it off to 4% and use the word "roughly".

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2023, 11:43:50 AM »
Minnesota charges 9.85% on income past $261k, and 7.85% just below that bracket.
Federal tax includes net investment income tax is 3.9% on income over $250k (MFJ).
Combine those, and you pay an extra 6% when exceeding $250k income - like with a Roth Conversioon.

Converting the entire thing means paying 51% tax on the last $40k (roughly).  If you limit yourself to $250k converted, you can pay 32% on the last $100k (roughly).
37% IRS + 3.9% NIIT (IRS) + 9.85% state = (roughly) 51%
24% IRS + 7.85% state = (roughly) 32%

At your age, it's 25 years until you can withdraw without penalty from a Roth IRA.  Over those 25 years, do you expect 1-2 more lower income years?  If so, I'd convert $250k now (less income after deductions) and wait for other low income years.


https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/federal-income-tax-brackets
https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/questions-and-answers-on-the-net-investment-income-tax
https://www.house.mn.gov/hrd/pubs/ss/ssindinc.pdf

NIIT is 3.8%, not 3.9%.  And it's only on certain types of investment income, not on all income over $250K.

There is also an additional 0.9% additional Medicare tax that can sometimes apply in those ranges, but I don't know much about that.

Best solution is to get a hold of a good tax prep program in December and mock up tax returns with YTD income plus contemplated Roth conversions.  The case study spreadsheet is what I use.

"Best solution is to get a hold of a good tax prep program in December and mock up tax returns with YTD income plus contemplated Roth conversions"  - Excellent idea.  I shall be making use of this as well.

secondcor521

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2023, 01:36:54 PM »
NIIT is 3.8%, not 3.9%.  And it's only on certain types of investment income, not on all income over $250K.
I specifically mentioned the Roth Conversion in that sentence.  You are correct on NTTI being 3.8%, but my examples all round it off to 4% and use the word "roughly".

Roth conversions are taxed as ordinary income, not investment income, so I doubt NIIT would apply to a Roth conversion.  (Although a Roth conversion could push any investment income to be NIIT-taxed; perhaps that was your point.)

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2023, 05:26:31 PM »
I'm confused why you want to roll it over at all. What's the problem with just leaving it alone?

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2023, 03:51:31 PM »
I'm confused why you want to roll it over at all. What's the problem with just leaving it alone?

Not the OP, but I can guess the reasoning might have been that you have to pay tax on this money at some point. A conversion right before moving to a higher-tax state might be a chance to lock in the lowest rate you'll get a chance to have for the foreseeable future.

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2023, 09:48:13 AM »
The Bogleheads Retiree Portfolio Model is kind of complicated, but it has a big section where you can play around with the timing of Roth conversions to minimize the tax burden over time.  More info/link to download here:

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Retiree_Portfolio_Model

tj

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Re: Rollover $732,000 from trad to roth??? Yikes!
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2023, 12:33:36 PM »
Minnesota charges 9.85% on income past $261k, and 7.85% just below that bracket.
Federal tax includes net investment income tax is 3.9% on income over $250k (MFJ).
Combine those, and you pay an extra 6% when exceeding $250k income - like with a Roth Conversioon.

Converting the entire thing means paying 51% tax on the last $40k (roughly).  If you limit yourself to $250k converted, you can pay 32% on the last $100k (roughly).
37% IRS + 3.9% NIIT (IRS) + 9.85% state = (roughly) 51%
24% IRS + 7.85% state = (roughly) 32%

At your age, it's 25 years until you can withdraw without penalty from a Roth IRA.  Over those 25 years, do you expect 1-2 more lower income years?  If so, I'd convert $250k now (less income after deductions) and wait for other low income years.


https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/federal-income-tax-brackets
https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/questions-and-answers-on-the-net-investment-income-tax
https://www.house.mn.gov/hrd/pubs/ss/ssindinc.pdf

NIIT is 3.8%, not 3.9%.  And it's only on certain types of investment income, not on all income over $250K.

There is also an additional 0.9% additional Medicare tax that can sometimes apply in those ranges, but I don't know much about that.

Best solution is to get a hold of a good tax prep program in December and mock up tax returns with YTD income plus contemplated Roth conversions.  The case study spreadsheet is what I use.

The Additional medicare tax would be applied to Earned Income over the threshold.