Author Topic: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?  (Read 2174 times)

Ives

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Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« on: July 06, 2022, 12:22:21 PM »
I'm working solely to overpay the mortgage like mad and will hopefully have it paid off by mid to end of next year.  My husband's job pays the bills. I'm tutoring online privately (and a few students for an online company as independent contractor), and am making way more money than I expected.  I used to only teach online as an independent contractor and pay 15% of my income every three months for the quarterly estimated taxes.  This year I stopped because it seemed like my husband's withholdings at his regular job took care of that. BUT now I'm working for myself and making more than twice what he makes, so I don't think his withholdings will help me, I'm guessing. 

So I need to pay quarterlies asap but think I need to figure out what my business is, and it's been recommended to be an S Corp. I live in Florida.  I could pay myself a reasonable wage at $15/hr which I was making working for the tutoring companies, and be taxed higher on so little compared to what I'm bringing in  BUT I need ALL of my money to overpay the mortgage. After tax and tithe, it's ALL goes to the loan company.  So would S corp not work for me because I'd have to pay myself the entire amount as my salary? Should I keep being a sole proprietor, and just pay 15% every three months, like I used to? I've heard that is the way to most likely be audited though................ So what are my options considering I'm using ALL of my money and sending it to the loan company at the end of every month?

I should also mention we have a tiny house on our property we rent to travel nurses for a few months at a time, so far only once this year, I think they aren't coming so much now that it's winter.  So does that need to be its own business too? They pay me on Venmo, I advertise on an advertising website and it's all done between us.

I hope someone reads this far and can help me!

travel2020

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2022, 11:21:33 PM »
S-corp typically involves a lot of overhead (you have to pay yourself as a W-2, filing quarterly corp taxes, annual report, annual taxes, setting up separate bank account, etc.).

There may be tax advantages to doing so but you should really consult a tax expert before going down the path as the costs/overhead can easily outweigh the benefits and a lot depends on the total earnings, etc.


Ives

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2022, 06:21:41 AM »
I already have filed quarterly taxes for years when I was an independent contractor.  And I already have a separate bank account.  I'll make at least 50k this year, maybe even 60k or more.   I've been talking to a tax friend but no one seems to understand that I'm spending ALL of my money.

dandarc

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2022, 06:43:39 AM »
What you don't pay yourself as salary you can still transfer to yourself as a profit distribution. Being an S-Corp (likely an LLC that is taxed as an S-Corp) saves you on self-employment taxes - whether it is worth the complexity or not for you is very specific to your situation. Just back of the napkin for my own situation:

Total business profit annually - $120,000
SE tax = $16,955

S-corp pays $60,000 salary, calls the rest profit
FICA = $9,180

So with those numbers, there's a $7,775 annual FICA savings there off the bat, but I have the overhead of being a proper business to deal with - have to pay unemployment tax, LLC registration fees, payroll software fees, etc. You can opt out of workers comp in Florida in this situation which I choose to do, but depending on nature of what you do that might be another additional expense. And also probably you'll lose some of that QBI deduction. Many would also choose to hire an accountant - S-Corp is significantly more complicated to get all this right than schedule C. At least one prominent CPA on this forum thinks that pretty much everyone who is taxed as an S-Corp should hire a good accountant. Looks like you're not doing this specifically but S-Corp Solo 401K employer-side limit likely to be lower than self-employed.

Bottom line is there needs to be a minimum of about $2,000-3,000 in FICA tax savings for your specific situation annually before this move makes a whole lot of sense. So you probably need to call something like $20-30K or more profit rather than salary (and still be paying a reasonable salary for the job at hand) before the numbers work. Are you able & comfortable with doing that?

Dicey

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2022, 09:05:33 AM »
You mentioned multiple times that you have a specific purpose for your income. It almost sounds as if you are expecting special treatment from the IRS because of this. The IRS does not care what you are doing with your income, they want their cut. Minimizing taxes is a fine mustachian skill, but there seems to be a disconnect here. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

There's a large contingent of mustachians who understand the math does not favor prepaying mortgages over investing. Are you maximizing all of the tax-sheltered options that are available to you and your spouse? That might save you just as much money with a lot less hassle.

Do you report the income from the cottage? Do you treat it as a business? Lots of tax-saving tools available in that realm, too.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 07:54:27 PM by Dicey »

sonofsven

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2022, 08:03:39 AM »
In my opinion you shouldn't bother with the S corp @ $50-60k. Yes, you will save money on self employment tax but will spend more on overhead, likely evening out the savings.
SE tax is hard to get away from as a sole proprietor/schedule C filer, but "income tax" can be whittled down fairly easily with traditional IRA and HSA contributions, you should look into this. Even though the money saved from taxes won't be going to your mortgage it will be adding to your bottom line.
Also, consider a Roth solo 401k as a place to dump most all of your earnings if you continue working after paying off the mortgage balance.

SeattleCPA

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2022, 09:48:34 PM »
What you don't pay yourself as salary you can still transfer to yourself as a profit distribution. Being an S-Corp (likely an LLC that is taxed as an S-Corp) saves you on self-employment taxes - whether it is worth the complexity or not for you is very specific to your situation. Just back of the napkin for my own situation:

Total business profit annually - $120,000
SE tax = $16,955

S-corp pays $60,000 salary, calls the rest profit
FICA = $9,180

So with those numbers, there's a $7,775 annual FICA savings there off the bat, but I have the overhead of being a proper business to deal with - have to pay unemployment tax, LLC registration fees, payroll software fees, etc. You can opt out of workers comp in Florida in this situation which I choose to do, but depending on nature of what you do that might be another additional expense. And also probably you'll lose some of that QBI deduction. Many would also choose to hire an accountant - S-Corp is significantly more complicated to get all this right than schedule C. At least one prominent CPA on this forum thinks that pretty much everyone who is taxed as an S-Corp should hire a good accountant. Looks like you're not doing this specifically but S-Corp Solo 401K employer-side limit likely to be lower than self-employed.

Bottom line is there needs to be a minimum of about $2,000-3,000 in FICA tax savings for your specific situation annually before this move makes a whole lot of sense. So you probably need to call something like $20-30K or more profit rather than salary (and still be paying a reasonable salary for the job at hand) before the numbers work. Are you able & comfortable with doing that?

Great analysis. Agree with everything you say, @dandarc ... (The only thing I might be inclined to tweak? I think I'd wonder if a taxpayer needs more like $40K to $50K of profit after paying the W-2 to make the numbers work. But as you wisely and rightly note in your second sentence above, the business owner gets to decide if the cost benefit works in their specific situation.)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 06:03:52 AM by SeattleCPA »

Ives

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2022, 11:20:22 AM »
What you don't pay yourself as salary you can still transfer to yourself as a profit distribution. Being an S-Corp (likely an LLC that is taxed as an S-Corp) saves you on self-employment taxes - whether it is worth the complexity or not for you is very specific to your situation. Just back of the napkin for my own situation:

Total business profit annually - $120,000
SE tax = $16,955

S-corp pays $60,000 salary, calls the rest profit
FICA = $9,180


So with those numbers, there's a $7,775 annual FICA savings there off the bat, but I have the overhead of being a proper business to deal with - have to pay unemployment tax, LLC registration fees, payroll software fees, etc. You can opt out of workers comp in Florida in this situation which I choose to do, but depending on nature of what you do that might be another additional expense. And also probably you'll lose some of that QBI deduction. Many would also choose to hire an accountant - S-Corp is significantly more complicated to get all this right than schedule C. At least one prominent CPA on this forum thinks that pretty much everyone who is taxed as an S-Corp should hire a good accountant. Looks like you're not doing this specifically but S-Corp Solo 401K employer-side limit likely to be lower than self-employed.

Bottom line is there needs to be a minimum of about $2,000-3,000 in FICA tax savings for your specific situation annually before this move makes a whole lot of sense. So you probably need to call something like $20-30K or more profit rather than salary (and still be paying a reasonable salary for the job at hand) before the numbers work. Are you able & comfortable with doing that?

Thanks!  A few questions:

Does this mean you pay $16,955 PLUS $9180? So 21% taxes etc?

How do I know your FICA savings for the year?

What do you mean by this? "S-Corp Solo 401K employer-side limit likely to be lower than self-employed."

"So you probably need to call something like $20-30K or more profit rather than salary (and still be paying a reasonable salary for the job at hand) before the numbers work. Are you able & comfortable with doing that?"  I'll pay myself whatever is best tax-wise, as long as I can distribute the rest to myself to over pay my mortgage.

Also, I have no employees, but possibly might someday, not sure

How can I know if I should be an LLC or an LLC filing as S-Corp? Number crunching (by an accountant?)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 11:23:34 AM by Ives »

dandarc

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2022, 12:17:12 PM »
No - the figures should not be added together. It is a comparison of the two options. My business - very similar to yours right now in that it is really just me - has $120K profit before compensating me. S-Corp vs. Sole Proprietor is a decision about how your business will compensate you with different tax and other cost implications depending on that choice. I did not address income tax at all aside from mentioning a deduction or two that would be lower if you went S-Corp vs. Sole-Proprietor.

So only looking at payroll taxes I have two choices:

Option 1:
Sole proprietor = $16,955 in Self-employment tax

Option 2:
I'm an S-Corp and pay myself $60K salary = $9,180 in FICA tax

Rather than entire $120K going into self-employment tax computation (15.3% of 92.35% of Schedule C net-profit at the level of income we're talking about here), I pay FICA based on a reasonable salary of $60,000 (15.3% of that salary). So that's basically the absolute most that the tax savings could be if I choose S-Corp. But an S-corp is more expensive in several ways, so the end of the day net savings is less than the initial figures would indicate.

How much less? Bare minimum I'd say is about $1,000 ($138 annual LLC registration fee, about $500 / year payroll software, about $250 in unemployment tax for yourself, bare-minimum $100 for tax-prep software).

SeattleCPA is the one who consistently advises hiring a good accountant - figure $3,000 minimum total cost if you go that route, maybe more. Pretty rare person who is in business in some area other than tax accounting and has the expertise to do this well on your own - most accountants actually aren't skilled enough in this area even, so if you hire, which odds are high that you should, you're really looking for a true expert. And that is not cheap.

So the S-Corp saves you on payroll taxes on yourself - and costs $1,000-3,000 at minimum. That is the hurdle that your payroll tax savings have clear for this to be worth it.  Actually need to clear that hurdle with significant room because doing all this work for just $100 a year would not be worth it - even if you hire an accountant you still have some additional work both up-front and every year for yourself as well. You need to be able to pay extra expenses, which likely includes hiring an expert CPA, and also have a few thousand left over for yourself for it to be worth the effort.

Point of clarity - if you do go S-Corp you will have at least one employee - yourself. Employees other than yourself or your spouse should cost you the same regardless of this decision to be taxed as an S-Corp vs. not.

Crunching the numbers is exactly how you decide something like this. To really do it well you're preparing multiple draft tax returns under various scenarios to see how they compare. With only $50-60K in revenue, it seems unlikely to me that the S-Corp juice is worth the squeeze for you, but until you (or someone you hire) run the numbers in a fairly detailed way you're not going to know for sure.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 12:36:38 PM by dandarc »

dandarc

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2022, 12:18:36 PM »
You mentioned multiple times that you have a specific purpose for your income. It almost sounds as if you are expecting special treatment from the IRS because of this. The IRS does not care what you are doing with your income, they want their cut. Minimizing taxes is a fine mustachian skill, but there seems to be a disconnect here. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

There's a large contingent of mustachians who understand the math does not favor prepaying mortgages over investing. Are you maximizing all of the tax-sheltered options that are available to you and your spouse? That might save you just as much money with a lot less hassle.

Do you report the income from the cottage? Do you treat it as a business? Lots of tax-saving tools available in that realm, too.
Agree with Dicey here - unless you've got very unfavorable mortgage terms or a US mortgage, maxing tax-advantaged space should be prioritized before paying off a mortgage early. And self-employed you've got a lot of tax-advantaged space at your disposal.

LightStache

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2022, 06:11:09 PM »
You can use online calculators like this one to compare LLC default versus S-Corp election: https://beforetax.co/s-corp-tax-calculator/

But as others have mentioned, don't forget about the extra cost with an S-Corp. Mine is about $2K/yr between accounting and payroll.

If I plug into the estimator $55K/yr net income, $40K reasonable salary, and CA state, the calculator estimates $547 tax savings with an S-Corp compared to LLC default. So after also considering the extra $2K admin. cost, it definitely wouldn't be worth electing S-Corp.

I also agree with the others here about paying off your mortgage versus investing in tax-advantaged accounts. If you don't care about that aspect of tax optimization, which is way bigger impact, it doesn't make much sense to worry about S-Corp election.

SeattleCPA

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2022, 06:01:34 AM »
SeattleCPA is the one who consistently advises hiring a good accountant - figure $3,000 minimum total cost if you go that route, maybe more. Pretty rare person who is in business in some area other than tax accounting and has the expertise to do this well on your own - most accountants actually aren't skilled enough in this area even, so if you hire, which odds are high that you should, you're really looking for a true expert. And that is not cheap.

Agree with what @dandarc says here. But just to make one minor addition: My general advice to people is to DIY your taxes with TurboTax or TaxCut. But to follow that suggestion, one needs to keep one's finances and business operation simple enough to DIY.

If some investor or business owner can't keep things simple, then that's when you (IMHO) need to bring in a ringer. And then what you want to do is make sure for every dollar you spend on accountants and related costs, you get two or three or four dollars of savings.

BTW? If you can't get the tax savings to pay for the ringer? Then you need to look again at keeping things really simple.

Also this is really important in the current environment because there basically aren't enough tax accountants to go around. (I was talking with a recruiter yesterday and he said they think there are about four openings for every candidate.)

So the S-Corp saves you on payroll taxes on yourself - and costs $1,000-3,000 at minimum. That is the hurdle that your payroll tax savings have clear for this to be worth it.  Actually need to clear that hurdle with significant room because doing all this work for just $100 a year would not be worth it - even if you hire an accountant you still have some additional work both up-front and every year for yourself as well. You need to be able to pay extra expenses, which likely includes hiring an expert CPA, and also have a few thousand left over for yourself for it to be worth the effort.

Again, this is really on-point advice from @dandarc . And something to note, my $3K guess at the costs isn't just the CPA or EA. A chunk goes for federal or state unemployment taxes. (Federal unemployment tax, aka "FUTA," probably equals $420 a year.) A chunk goes to the payroll service. (E.g., the $300 or $400 you'll pay Gusto for 941s and W-2s.)


dandarc

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2022, 06:24:42 AM »
@SeattleCPA - payrolls software says $231 combined federal and state unemployment for me - paid $165 in January and $66 in February and done for the year. I'm in Florida where our unemployment benefits are lousy relative to other states of course.

SeattleCPA

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2022, 02:28:41 PM »
@SeattleCPA - payrolls software says $231 combined federal and state unemployment for me - paid $165 in January and $66 in February and done for the year. I'm in Florida where our unemployment benefits are lousy relative to other states of course.

Sometimes it works that way. I.e., the FUTA is supposed to be $420 minus a credit from the state for the SUTA... and the state's SUTA credit pushes the FUTA down way more than the actual SUTA paid.

Another example of how generalizations about the S corp thing are pretty imprecise... Sorry. :-(

Ives

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2022, 06:10:18 AM »
SeattleCPA is the one who consistently advises hiring a good accountant - figure $3,000 minimum total cost if you go that route, maybe more. Pretty rare person who is in business in some area other than tax accounting and has the expertise to do this well on your own - most accountants actually aren't skilled enough in this area even, so if you hire, which odds are high that you should, you're really looking for a true expert. And that is not cheap.

Agree with what @dandarc says here. But just to make one minor addition: My general advice to people is to DIY your taxes with TurboTax or TaxCut. But to follow that suggestion, one needs to keep one's finances and business operation simple enough to DIY.

If some investor or business owner can't keep things simple, then that's when you (IMHO) need to bring in a ringer. And then what you want to do is make sure for every dollar you spend on accountants and related costs, you get two or three or four dollars of savings.

BTW? If you can't get the tax savings to pay for the ringer? Then you need to look again at keeping things really simple.

Also this is really important in the current environment because there basically aren't enough tax accountants to go around. (I was talking with a recruiter yesterday and he said they think there are about four openings for every candidate.)

So the S-Corp saves you on payroll taxes on yourself - and costs $1,000-3,000 at minimum. That is the hurdle that your payroll tax savings have clear for this to be worth it.  Actually need to clear that hurdle with significant room because doing all this work for just $100 a year would not be worth it - even if you hire an accountant you still have some additional work both up-front and every year for yourself as well. You need to be able to pay extra expenses, which likely includes hiring an expert CPA, and also have a few thousand left over for yourself for it to be worth the effort.

Again, this is really on-point advice from @dandarc . And something to note, my $3K guess at the costs isn't just the CPA or EA. A chunk goes for federal or state unemployment taxes. (Federal unemployment tax, aka "FUTA," probably equals $420 a year.) A chunk goes to the payroll service. (E.g., the $300 or $400 you'll pay Gusto for 941s and W-2s.)

Do I need to pay for payroll?  Is that how I'd pay myself?

dandarc

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Re: Paying Off My Mortgage -Should I be an S Corp?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2022, 06:17:09 AM »
If you're an S-Corp your business pays you as an employee - the business will send you a W-2. Payroll software technically is not required, however it is worth the relatively nominal fee ($41 / month for me with Wave Payroll in Florida). Not only keeps track of taxes and filings and such but actually remits payment to state and federal governments and files electronically for you. Automatically. Saves so much time.