Author Topic: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?  (Read 9060 times)

dividendman

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Hi folks, my problem is this:

I have a non-qualified deferred compensation plan with my current employer. I have a very good and much higher paying offer from another employer. Taking the offer will result in my deferred compensation being paid out in a lump-sum next year so my income will be quite inflated (and also very high thanks to the new offer).

I will be paying an effective tax rate of 39.8% and a marginal rate of 44%.

I don't own a home, don't have kids, don't have any side-businesses. I took the standard deduction last year because I have literally nothing to itemize. I don't have any tax-loss harvesting to do since all of my investment positions are positive. I will obviously max my 401k and HSA.

Is there any strategies high-income folks know to avoid some income tax? (I don't want to buy a monster house just to have a mortgage deduction).

This is obviously a great problem to have but I would like to save some tax if I can.

FB2020

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2016, 02:13:57 PM »
Can your employer pay you in a different form? Maybe as expense reimbursements or something that's not considered wages.
Just thinking out loud

dividendman

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2016, 02:20:50 PM »
Can your employer pay you in a different form? Maybe as expense reimbursements or something that's not considered wages.
Just thinking out loud

Thanks FB2020. I don't think that's an option at this employer but it's something to consider for the future.

acroy

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2016, 02:21:32 PM »
Good problem to have ;)
I have nothing of value to offer except congratulations & wishes of good luck!

dividendman

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2016, 02:31:56 PM »
Good problem to have ;)
I have nothing of value to offer except congratulations & wishes of good luck!

Thanks! I wish the offer was in Texas, no state income tax would save me quite a bit!

FB2020

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2016, 03:20:54 PM »
Well, the tax law designers/experts in the govt are pretty smart.

seattlecyclone

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2016, 03:27:06 PM »
If the deferred compensation payout next year will cause you to go into a higher tax bracket, you might consider trying to negotiate for more of your pay with the new employer to come in 2018 (i.e. maybe a one-year stock cliff could happen at 1.5 years instead).

dividendman

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2016, 04:55:37 PM »
If the deferred compensation payout next year will cause you to go into a higher tax bracket, you might consider trying to negotiate for more of your pay with the new employer to come in 2018 (i.e. maybe a one-year stock cliff could happen at 1.5 years instead).

Good call. Thanks, I'll bring this up with them.

redcedar

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2016, 05:38:37 PM »
Any interest in starting a business? You could front load many start-up expenses in 2017, have a sizable loss, and reduce your tax burden. Now business can obviously mean many things including a blog, consulting, etc. Or real estate. A fixer upper with significant upfront costs prior to listing it for rent.

ender

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2016, 05:41:54 PM »
Charitable giving is worth quite a bit to save on taxes.

At that marginal rate, you effectively can double the impact your money has pretty quickly if you go over the standard deduction.

Systems101

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2016, 07:58:29 PM »
Is there any strategies high-income folks know to avoid some income tax? (I don't want to buy a monster house just to have a mortgage deduction).

Look into creating a Donor Advised Fund and use that fund for charitable contributions over time.  It is a particularly effective tool for time shifting donations and thus dealing with "lumpy" salaries.

dividendman

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2016, 09:47:15 PM »
Look into creating a Donor Advised Fund and use that fund for charitable contributions over time.  It is a particularly effective tool for time shifting donations and thus dealing with "lumpy" salaries.

I've never heard of this before, I'll go read up on it now - thanks for the idea.

Charitable giving is worth quite a bit to save on taxes.

At that marginal rate, you effectively can double the impact your money has pretty quickly if you go over the standard deduction.

Yep, definitely a good idea. I was kind of waiting until I hit my number before I started giving a lot to charity (right now I only give a fair bit to the Wikimedia foundation - but mostly because I use it so much I feel obliged to pay!), but this will definitely make me rethink that approach.

Any interest in starting a business? You could front load many start-up expenses in 2017, have a sizable loss, and reduce your tax burden. Now business can obviously mean many things including a blog, consulting, etc. Or real estate. A fixer upper with significant upfront costs prior to listing it for rent.

Another good idea! I'm not really looking to start a business but I could see getting a fixer-upper and paying some folks to fix it up and having that all as a loss. I could then also deduct the mortgage interest etc. I'll look into this a bit more.

CareCPA

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2016, 05:50:05 AM »

Any interest in starting a business? You could front load many start-up expenses in 2017, have a sizable loss, and reduce your tax burden. Now business can obviously mean many things including a blog, consulting, etc. Or real estate. A fixer upper with significant upfront costs prior to listing it for rent.

Another good idea! I'm not really looking to start a business but I could see getting a fixer-upper and paying some folks to fix it up and having that all as a loss. I could then also deduct the mortgage interest etc. I'll look into this a bit more.
I think you'll be surprised how many of those costs get capitalized into the basis of the property, and are not deductible in the year paid.

jwright

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2016, 07:12:48 AM »
Have you looked at your specific state tax credits?  In my state (SC) we have two separate methods in which you make a donation to the fund, get a charitable contribution on your federal return, but get a CREDIT (not deduction) on your state return.  This also helps in AMT avoidance since you don't have to add back the state taxes paid in the form of the credit.  You may want to consult with a CPA.

But I will say in general, high income wage-earners don't have a ton of options.

Proud Foot

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2016, 09:00:50 AM »
Talk with your current plan representative and look into all the plan documents.  Depending on how the plan is written you may be able to spread the distributions out over multiple years. 

Paul der Krake

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2016, 10:14:37 AM »
Two appealing options jump to mind:

1) Take an extended sabbatical before starting your new job. If you don't like traveling, set up shop at the beach or the mountains and surf/ski for 6 months.

2) Create an account at Vanguard Charitable and endow it that year, essentially frontloading your charitable giving. You take the deduction when most convenient to you, money grows tax-free, and you get to disburse it whenever you want. Win-win-win.

dividendman

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2016, 10:15:38 AM »
Thanks all, it looks like charitable giving is the way to go, especially since I do plan on doing a lot of it at some point.

Two appealing options jump to mind:

1) Take an extended sabbatical before starting your new job. If you don't like traveling, set up shop at the beach or the mountains and surf/ski for 6 months.

I wish this we an option! But, unfortunately, the new employer (as usual) wants me to start ASAP.

tonysemail

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2016, 03:29:05 PM »
is your deferred compensation in stock or cash?

DAFs are great because you can avoid paying capital gains if you donate stock.

there's also a CRUT, which apparently doesn't work out for young folks-
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/crut-charitable-remainder-unitrust/

With This Herring

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2016, 05:35:46 PM »
Tell ex-employer that you do not want that deferred compensation of $100K, but you would like to sell them this eggplant from your garden for $100K.  BAM, you're a farmer with farm income!  Now you can average that $100K over three years and avoid hitting that highest tax bracket.

[Note:  This is just a joke!  Do not do this thing!  The IRS would come and beat you with sticks.]

dividendman

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2016, 07:14:37 PM »
Tell ex-employer that you do not want that deferred compensation of $100K, but you would like to sell them this eggplant from your garden for $100K.  BAM, you're a farmer with farm income!  Now you can average that $100K over three years and avoid hitting that highest tax bracket.

[Note:  This is just a joke!  Do not do this thing!  The IRS would come and beat you with sticks.]

What if I GROW the eggplant? haha.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2016, 07:14:05 AM »
Buy a Chevrolet Bolt or Volt and get $7500 in tax credits.

secondcor521

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2016, 11:09:15 AM »
Often the deferred comp can be rolled/contributed directly into a 401(k) or IRA plan and avoid taxation until later.  I would ask an open ended question to my soon-to-be-ex-employer "How do I defer taxation on this?" and see what they say.

RelaxedGal

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2016, 11:43:39 AM »
Buy a Chevrolet Bolt or Volt and get $7500 in tax credits.
And solar panels, put those on your roof and get a third of that cost back.

Common to the suggestions: where would you like your money to go if NOT the federal/state/city gov't?  Charity?  "Improvements" like the two above?  I see no way for it to stay in your pocket and save on taxes.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 11:46:46 AM by RelaxedGal »

powskier

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2016, 11:50:55 PM »
I will marry you one year, and my wife will marry you the next in exchange for compensation, so you could go for for married filing jointly.
We can discuss alimony over long walks on the beach.

dividendman

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2016, 08:37:28 AM »
Buy a Chevrolet Bolt or Volt and get $7500 in tax credits.
And solar panels, put those on your roof and get a third of that cost back.

Common to the suggestions: where would you like your money to go if NOT the federal/state/city gov't?  Charity?  "Improvements" like the two above?  I see no way for it to stay in your pocket and save on taxes.

Unless I marry powskier and/or his wife I think you're right.

I'm just going to count my blessings and suck it up. I will probably give something substantial to charity though.

mamagoose

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2016, 09:25:41 AM »
Solar panels! It's like prepaying your electricity bills for the next couple decades.

dividendman

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2016, 09:51:18 AM »
Solar panels! It's like prepaying your electricity bills for the next couple decades.

Yeah, but I don't own a house.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2016, 10:10:13 PM »
Your taxes will likely go down now that the Republicans have swept into total power.

dividendman

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2016, 11:54:48 PM »
Your taxes will likely go down now that the Republicans have swept into total power.

Yes! That is true, I was just reflecting on that in another thread. I guess I selfishly hope they can pass major tax reform next year since I have so much deferred income and other income for that year.

Grogounet

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2016, 02:59:21 AM »
I will marry you one year, and my wife will marry you the next in exchange for compensation, so you could go for for married filing jointly.
We can discuss alimony over long walks on the beach.

Haha !!! Loved it!!! Brilliant!

mai72

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2016, 11:37:37 AM »
1) Get into network marketing.

You may never sell anything but the tax write offs are pretty sweet. I lease a car, and I use my network marketing gig so I can get that tax break on my car. My next stop is my home business.

2) Invest in real estate. Specifically multi-family.

I have nearly $200k saved. I'm looking to multiply my money so I'm currently looking at multi-family apartments. The tax breaks on rental is pretty sweet. Plus, I'll be making profit straight away. Projected  ROI about 12% first year. Gonna be much higher in the years following. No RITH IRA, and 401k can even touch the returns I'm going to be a multi-millionaire in a few years.

Just two examples. You gotta play every angle. The IRS will take as much as they can get their greedy hands on. It's up to us to tell them no. Of course, do it legally. 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 11:39:31 AM by mai72 »

dpfromva

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2016, 10:42:04 AM »
There are a lot of restrictions on restructuring NQDC plans, but they might work to your advantage. Check with your employer and maybe a tax attorney, although it may be too late if the trigger event has occurred. You have to push out the constructive receipt 5 years to be able to modify. Then you could convert to some sort of payout schedule over several years.

Summary of IRS requirements (acknowledgment to Prudential)
A change in the time or form of a previously-elected payment may not take effect for 12 months and must provide for a new commencement date at least five years after the original beginning date. In addition, an election to change any payment scheduled to be made at a specified time or according to a fixed schedule must be made 12 months before the date the first amount was scheduled to be paid.
• An installment payout can be considered a series of individual payments or a single payment. A plan must treat all installment payments consistently.
• The rules regarding changes in the form and time of payment apply separately to each payout election. For example, if the participant elects to receive a distribution in 5 annual installments upon separation from service or in a lump sum upon death, the participant can change the form of one distribution without changing the other form. • An intervening event may override an existing payment schedule already in payment status. For example, a plan could provide that a participant will receive 6 installment payments upon termination, but also provide that if the participant dies after the payments begin, all remaining benefits will be paid in a lump sum.

dividendman

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2016, 11:44:21 AM »
There are a lot of restrictions on restructuring NQDC plans, but they might work to your advantage. Check with your employer and maybe a tax attorney, although it may be too late if the trigger event has occurred. You have to push out the constructive receipt 5 years to be able to modify. Then you could convert to some sort of payout schedule over several years.

Summary of IRS requirements (acknowledgment to Prudential)
A change in the time or form of a previously-elected payment may not take effect for 12 months and must provide for a new commencement date at least five years after the original beginning date. In addition, an election to change any payment scheduled to be made at a specified time or according to a fixed schedule must be made 12 months before the date the first amount was scheduled to be paid.
• An installment payout can be considered a series of individual payments or a single payment. A plan must treat all installment payments consistently.
• The rules regarding changes in the form and time of payment apply separately to each payout election. For example, if the participant elects to receive a distribution in 5 annual installments upon separation from service or in a lump sum upon death, the participant can change the form of one distribution without changing the other form. • An intervening event may override an existing payment schedule already in payment status. For example, a plan could provide that a participant will receive 6 installment payments upon termination, but also provide that if the participant dies after the payments begin, all remaining benefits will be paid in a lump sum.

Thanks. I have been going through the plan documents and it looks like since I didn't meet certain criteria with the company that it will get paid out in a lump sum. I do get that the entire point of this is to retain me so I don't think they're going to give me any breaks. I will bring it up with the plan administrator like secondcor521 suggested.

Thanks for all of the replies.

Being a HENRY (High Earner, Not Rich Yet) kind of sucks tax-wise, but better than being a LENRY I suppose!

srob

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2016, 01:44:58 PM »
If you are going into a shareholder situation, you could see if your new employer has the ability to offer a cash balance defined benefit plan. You can put large amounts of pretax cash into the plan.

Rental property is great but it will not decrease your tax liability from active earned income if you make more than 125k or so, which it sounds like you do. But your earnings from the rental properties themselves may be tax free due to deductions etc.

Good luck and congrats on your new job offer!

CanuckExpat

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2016, 11:50:43 PM »
Look into creating a Donor Advised Fund and use that fund for charitable contributions over time.  It is a particularly effective tool for time shifting donations and thus dealing with "lumpy" salaries.

I've never heard of this before, I'll go read up on it now - thanks for the idea.

Charitable giving is worth quite a bit to save on taxes.

At that marginal rate, you effectively can double the impact your money has pretty quickly if you go over the standard deduction.

Yep, definitely a good idea. I was kind of waiting until I hit my number before I started giving a lot to charity (right now I only give a fair bit to the Wikimedia foundation - but mostly because I use it so much I feel obliged to pay!), but this will definitely make me rethink that approach.


Some discussion here: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/charitable-giving/

CanuckExpat

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2016, 11:56:48 PM »
Common to the suggestions: where would you like your money to go if NOT the federal/state/city gov't?  Charity?  "Improvements" like the two above?  I see no way for it to stay in your pocket and save on taxes.

Copying from this thread:

I'll leave this list of things to reduce your taxes (but not necessarily (M)AGI) here from a Bogleheads thread for your amusement. http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=677232#677232

Quote
1. Contribute max to 401(k) and self-employed retirement plans.
2. Contribute to Roth IRAs (only reduces future taxes, not today's taxes)
3. Invest tax efficiently (only reduces future taxes)
4. Give your money away to charity
5. Buy biggest house in world and pay huge property taxes
6. Have huge mortgage on that house and pay huge amount of interest
7. Get married and have lots of kids
8. Be sure to lose money in the stock market since $3000 of losses are deductible each year against ordinary income.
9. Move to a state with high income taxes because state income taxes are deductible.
10. Have severe health issues that you pay for out of your own pocket as you can deduct health care expenses above 7.5% of AGI
11. Grow old, you get more exemptions for being old
12. Go blind, you get more exemptions for being blind
13. Buy property and rent it out at a loss. The more losses the better.
14. Quit your jobs. With no earned income, it's not surprising that your taxes drop.
15. Avoid investments that create taxable income. You want losers to reduce your taxes.
16. Etc.

On a more serious note, what are your chances of being hired as a 1099 contractor for your new job as opposed to a W2 employee? You migth be able to put away more pretax money

azure975

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2016, 12:07:55 AM »
Is there any strategies high-income folks know to avoid some income tax? (I don't want to buy a monster house just to have a mortgage deduction).

Look into creating a Donor Advised Fund and use that fund for charitable contributions over time.  It is a particularly effective tool for time shifting donations and thus dealing with "lumpy" salaries.

We are also in the 39.6% tax bracket and I opened a donor-advised fund this year as a tax-sheltering strategy. I am passionate about animal rescue and I know I want to support animal charities my entire life (after I FIRE that's what I want to do full time), so it makes sense to take the deduction now rather than later when I'm in a lower tax bracket. Not only that, but I funded it with appreciated stock, so you can deduct the FMV of the stock and avoid capital gains taxes (which are 20% if you are in the highest tax bracket, plus the additional net investment income tax).

dividendman

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2016, 11:12:16 AM »
Is there any strategies high-income folks know to avoid some income tax? (I don't want to buy a monster house just to have a mortgage deduction).

Look into creating a Donor Advised Fund and use that fund for charitable contributions over time.  It is a particularly effective tool for time shifting donations and thus dealing with "lumpy" salaries.

We are also in the 39.6% tax bracket and I opened a donor-advised fund this year as a tax-sheltering strategy. I am passionate about animal rescue and I know I want to support animal charities my entire life (after I FIRE that's what I want to do full time), so it makes sense to take the deduction now rather than later when I'm in a lower tax bracket. Not only that, but I funded it with appreciated stock, so you can deduct the FMV of the stock and avoid capital gains taxes (which are 20% if you are in the highest tax bracket, plus the additional net investment income tax).

Yep, I'm looking into this seriously. My current primary bank, Wells Fargo, won't let me do it unless I have $1M in assets with them (I think). So I might go with another vendor. The good news is I have all of next year to figure it out.

Omerta

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2016, 02:40:50 PM »
Charitable giving is worth quite a bit to save on taxes.

At that marginal rate, you effectively can double the impact your money has pretty quickly if you go over the standard deduction.

I thought charitable donations are just dollar for dollar with a cap on it?

ender

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2016, 02:55:24 PM »
Charitable giving is worth quite a bit to save on taxes.

At that marginal rate, you effectively can double the impact your money has pretty quickly if you go over the standard deduction.

I thought charitable donations are just dollar for dollar with a cap on it?

They are.

But if your marginal rate is 50% between federal/state, every $1 you donate only costs you $0.50 of after tax money after the deduction.

CanuckExpat

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Re: High income, simple living - no hope for saving anything on taxes?
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2016, 08:54:45 PM »
Charitable giving is worth quite a bit to save on taxes.

At that marginal rate, you effectively can double the impact your money has pretty quickly if you go over the standard deduction.

I thought charitable donations are just dollar for dollar with a cap on it?

They are.

But if your marginal rate is 50% between federal/state, every $1 you donate only costs you $0.50 of after tax money after the deduction.

Donating appreciated shares can really increase the tax efficiency as well. If you have cash and appreciated shares, donate the shares and buy the same shares, it's like free tax gain harvesting

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!