Author Topic: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.  (Read 16581 times)

Barry

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Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« on: September 21, 2012, 02:04:54 PM »
If I can keep it up, it will take several hundred dollars off my fuel bill yearly.  I can't believe I never considered this before.

HumanAfterAll

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2012, 02:08:09 PM »
Awesome!

A few years ago I realized I was driving to work in the left lane, upset a people in front of me, and getting stressed out.  Then I thought, how much time is this really buying me? 

Since then I found hypermiling, which is a much more fulfilling and entertaining strategy of dealing with traffic.  My MPG went up from 24-28 to 28-32 immediately, then up to 34-40 with some car mods. 

And I'm so much more relaxed when I drive now!

Barry

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2012, 02:40:15 PM »
Yeah.  I've only been at it a week, and I've already noticed how much more relaxing it is.

I also hope that driving the speed limit will cut costs in the "Traffic fines for speeding" category too... 

Wendyimhome

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2012, 05:53:39 PM »
Awesome!

A few years ago I realized I was driving to work in the left lane, upset a people in front of me, and getting stressed out.  Then I thought, how much time is this really buying me? 

Since then I found hypermiling, which is a much more fulfilling and entertaining strategy of dealing with traffic.  My MPG went up from 24-28 to 28-32 immediately, then up to 34-40 with some car mods. 

And I'm so much more relaxed when I drive now!

So what sort of car mods did you do?  I've read about people covering the grill with cardboard and removing side mirrors, but I'm really not into that kind of scene. 

HumanAfterAll

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 08:34:32 AM »
Some big, some small, some silly, some sound :)  There is no more cardboard or tape on my car, and the external mirrors are back on.  But the power steering delete, clutching fan delete, kill switch, and coolant temp sensor tweaking, and idle air circuit restrictor are still there.  The block heater just died :(  Don't think I'll replace it.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 11:34:52 PM by El Beardo Numero Uno »

tkaraszewski

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 10:33:34 AM »
I did this a year or two ago. It turns out if you slow down to 3-5mph *under* the speed limit and avoid the left lane, then suddenly everyone isn't constantly in your way, holding you up, they're just sort of ahead of you, driving. It's much less stressful and doesn't actually cost you very much time, and it saves fuel, too.

Bakari

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2012, 11:13:44 AM »
1 mile at 65mph= 55seconds
1 mile at 75mph= 48seconds

It helped me stop speeding when I realized it was gaining me all of 7 seconds a mile, or barely over one minute over 10 miles.
While costing roughly 25% more in fuel cost (and environmental impact)
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/speed-vs-mpg-charts-post-em-if-you-15182.html

and at the same time a roughly 160% greater chance of getting into a fatal accident.
http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2012/03/slow-down-my-philosophy-for-life-also.html

Actually, that isn't true at all. I didn't do the math until relatively recently.  What really cured my speeding and reckless driving habit was causing a major crash - I flipped over a midsize pickup truck (in my 1985 Civic hatchback) when taking a corner too fast, totaling both vehicles (fortunately no injuries).  The notice I got from the DMV about being a couple points away from a suspended license hadn't even been enough, but that did it.

Fast forward many years to the present, and I've noticed that even when driving 20mph below the limit, the ETA estimates of Google Maps and my GPS tend to be spot on (both presumably assume I will be driving right at the speed limit).

In other words, even though the math says I should lose 25 seconds per mile driving so slow, in practice I will get to my destination at the exact same time as someone who leaves at the same time as me but drives faster.  I think the difference is due to stoplights.  I catch up to people who passed me a minute or more ago at the stop light at the off ramp all the time. 

Bakari

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 11:20:20 AM »
I did this a year or two ago. It turns out if you slow down to 3-5mph *under* the speed limit and avoid the left lane, then suddenly everyone isn't constantly in your way, holding you up, they're just sort of ahead of you, driving. It's much less stressful and doesn't actually cost you very much time, and it saves fuel, too.

No one can cut you off if you choose to slow down and let them in.

The funny thing is, the people who need to get ahead of everyone else are generally the reason traffic is backed up in the first place!
Think of a fire in a crowded room with one exit: if everyone is shoving, trying to get out first, they all get stuck on each other at the bottleneck, and no one gets out.  If they all line up and calmly stay in single file, the last person to leave leaves sooner than the middle person in the panic scenario.

Same thing with lane changers and tailgaters in heavy traffic - one person changes lanes because there is a tiny opening, and then, because everyone else is tailgating, every single car behind them down the line has to brake in turn.
If everyone just left a good following distance, that gap would absorb lane changes and no one would have to brake. 
Its particularly obvious when there is a accident or lane closure, and afterwards the traffic is faster and smoother than it would have been without it: its forcing everyone to slow down and space out.

So, in addition to causing yourself less stress, you can feel extra happy knowing that you are actually making everyone else behind you have a tiny bit less commute time, and saving them all a tiny bit of fuel by not driving aggressively

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGFqfTCL2fs

tkaraszewski

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 01:47:06 PM »
1 mile at 65mph= 55seconds
1 mile at 75mph= 48seconds

I have a bit of a thought experiment along these lines. Consider the quoted bit above, and the following:

1 mile at 7mph: 514 seconds
1 mile at 50mph: 72 seconds

For every minute you spend speeding (using above numbers), you have saved yourself 0.16 miles, or 9 seconds over going the speed limit.

For every minute you spend driving in the carpool lane, you save yourself 368 seconds (over six minutes!) using the above numbers. It makes me wonder why so many people speed, and relatively few cheat in the carpool lane. They're both illegal, but the ROI on carpool lane cheating is so much higher. It's also a lot harder to get caught cheating in the carpool lane: a cop can see you speeding from a speed trap half a mile ahead, but pretty much needs to drive right alongside you and look in your window to see if you've got your kids in the back seat. Also driving in the carpool lane has no increased safety risk and actually saves you money on gas versus sitting in traffic.

kisserofsinners

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2012, 06:12:48 PM »
It's like magic, de-stressing money floating back into your life. I also love the secret judging of jerks in SUVs and sports cars getting pissy with me for not gong fast enough for them.

PJ

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2012, 07:06:08 PM »
I did this a year or two ago. It turns out if you slow down to 3-5mph *under* the speed limit and avoid the left lane, then suddenly everyone isn't constantly in your way, holding you up, they're just sort of ahead of you, driving.

I can see what you're saying, but I think it pays to pay attention to the traffic patterns on your route.  On my way to and from work, there are definitely spots where it makes more sense to be in one lane or the other, and actually, for most of my particular route I'm better off in the left lane, in terms of traffic bunching up, getting caught at lights, etc.  I hate having to brake unnecessarily - wasting all that expensive gas! 

tkaraszewski

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2012, 09:14:52 PM »
I did this a year or two ago. It turns out if you slow down to 3-5mph *under* the speed limit and avoid the left lane, then suddenly everyone isn't constantly in your way, holding you up, they're just sort of ahead of you, driving.

I can see what you're saying, but I think it pays to pay attention to the traffic patterns on your route.  On my way to and from work, there are definitely spots where it makes more sense to be in one lane or the other, and actually, for most of my particular route I'm better off in the left lane, in terms of traffic bunching up, getting caught at lights, etc.  I hate having to brake unnecessarily - wasting all that expensive gas!

I can see what you're saying as well, but I get the impression that you're thinking of a surface street with two lanes each direction, whereas I'm thinking of a freeway with four lanes each direction. There's lots of other choices besides the right and left lanes available, and no lights.

PJ

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2012, 09:57:15 PM »
I did this a year or two ago. It turns out if you slow down to 3-5mph *under* the speed limit and avoid the left lane, then suddenly everyone isn't constantly in your way, holding you up, they're just sort of ahead of you, driving.

I can see what you're saying, but I think it pays to pay attention to the traffic patterns on your route.  On my way to and from work, there are definitely spots where it makes more sense to be in one lane or the other, and actually, for most of my particular route I'm better off in the left lane, in terms of traffic bunching up, getting caught at lights, etc.  I hate having to brake unnecessarily - wasting all that expensive gas!

I can see what you're saying as well, but I get the impression that you're thinking of a surface street with two lanes each direction, whereas I'm thinking of a freeway with four lanes each direction. There's lots of other choices besides the right and left lanes available, and no lights.
 

I'm thinking of both, actually.  If I'm driving at rush hour either to or from work, then I'm on surface streets all the way, the bulk of my time on streets that are 3 lanes each direction, with some parts of those streets being only 2 lanes.  For example, Sheppard Ave is 3 lanes when I get on it, but narrows to 2 west of Leslie St.  The middle lane always looks enticingly empty at that point, but since the right lane merges into it, it doesn't stay empty for long.  So I'm better off staying in the left lane.  Then it turns back into 3 lanes a short distance further, and I know exactly when I should move back over to ultimately make my right hand turn - i.e. right after the street where all the parents slow down suddenly and excessively as they turn to drop their children off at school :-)   

Since I also go to work early Sunday morning (I'm an Anglican priest) and have late evenings at the church (for courses, meetings, etc) I can take the 401 at those off peak times and get home in half the time (freeway in American terminology, I believe, whereas I'd call it a highway).  The 401 is a pretty big highway - there are 4 lanes each direction in the collectors lanes through the central part of Toronto, plus the express lanes  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_401).  When I get on at Yonge St to head home, I'm only going 3 exits, but pretty much no matter what time of day or night the 3 right hand lanes get all bunched up through that area.  So I immediately move over to the left lane and drive past the cars in the other 3 lanes who are rapidly alternating between hitting the brakes and speeding back up to 100 km/hr.  At the last possible moment, I cut quickly back across 3 lanes and get off at my exit. 

Specifics aside, my point was to watch the traffic patterns on your particular route at your particular times of day.  Chances are there will be some consistency to the flow.  And as you said, it's not just left lane or right lane.  Sometimes the smooth traffic is in one or the other, sometimes it's in the middle. 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 10:01:30 PM by PJ »

inthebiz

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2012, 08:31:23 PM »
@bakari

Great video. I had been getting about 47 mpg on my Prius until I saw how you let your truck coast. First time I did that during a 20 mile drive I managed 56 mpg! Amazing!! I coast everywhere now and love to watch people get upset when I don't drive 40 mph into a red light...haha!

Bakari

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2012, 09:13:53 PM »
@bakari

Great video. I had been getting about 47 mpg on my Prius until I saw how you let your truck coast. First time I did that during a 20 mile drive I managed 56 mpg! Amazing!! I coast everywhere now and love to watch people get upset when I don't drive 40 mph into a red light...haha!

Thank you.  Comments like that make me feel it is actually worth all this time I spend sharing information on the internet.

inthebiz

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2012, 09:18:37 PM »
@bakari

Great video. I had been getting about 47 mpg on my Prius until I saw how you let your truck coast. First time I did that during a 20 mile drive I managed 56 mpg! Amazing!! I coast everywhere now and love to watch people get upset when I don't drive 40 mph into a red light...haha!

Thank you.  Comments like that make me feel it is actually worth all this time I spend sharing information on the internet.


No, thank you! Must give credit where credit is due! I thought the monitors in my car helped me change the way I drive, but little did I know there was more I could have been doing - so thanks.

Tom Reingold

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2012, 04:13:34 PM »
I've found that the biggest factor in my control that relates to fuel efficiency is how often I start from a dead stop. So a road that allows me to travel without stopping saves the most, compared with stop and go traffic, and it doesn't matter much what speed I go at constantly.

The second biggest factor is how hard I pull away from a dead start. Since this makes such a difference, I pull away from stops like a grandma. Folks behind me get frustrated, but it's too bad.

I think on the highway, my car gets the best efficiency at about 55 mph, but if it's a big highway, such as an interstate, I can't stand to go that slowly. When I want to save fuel, I go about 65 mph, sometimes less. Going up to 75 mph doesn't cost too much more, though.

Slow acceleration and deceleration really make good differences in efficiency.

Bakari

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2012, 05:23:20 PM »
noglider - If you have a manual transmission, its really the engine RPMs that make the difference, not rate of acceleration.
You can accelerate quick, just shift up as soon as you can possibly can (without lugging the engine).  The key is not accelerating to a point higher than you need to.

Re: not starting from a dead stop - the only thing that prevents that is stop signs.  If you see a red light 3 blocks ahead, take your foot off the accelerator.  If it is one block ahead, start slowing down just slightly.  Often by slowing slightly you can buy yourself enough time that it changes green by the time you get there, and you never need to come to a full stop.

The same thing works in stop and go traffic.  Leave large following distances.  Huge ones.  Like, 5-10 car lengths.  Then go one constant speed.  The cars ahead will tailgate as always, speeding up when there is a chance and then stopping.  When they go, you let a gap open up.  When they stop you start to catch up.  But just when you almost catch up, they go again.  Hypermilers call it accordianing.  You end up going the exact same average speed as everyone else, but you never start from a dead stop, so use much less gas.

The best part of it is, you are actually reducing the entire traffic jam for every single car in line behind you.
Because, the fact that everyone is tailgating is a huge part of what causes traffic jams in the first place.
Think about a fire in a crowded room with one door.  If everyone is trying to be the first one out, they cram the doorway, and everyone gets stuck.  If everyone forms a single file line, the last person gets out faster than when everyone was shoving.  Same deal with traffic.  Everyone wants to go as fast as they possibly can, and as a result, everyone goes slower. 

Rangifer

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2012, 05:57:51 PM »

Fast forward many years to the present, and I've noticed that even when driving 20mph below the limit, the ETA estimates of Google Maps and my GPS tend to be spot on (both presumably assume I will be driving right at the speed limit).



Jeez, I've just got to say that unless you're on a almost deserted highway, going 20 under the limit is a dick move.

HumanAfterAll

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2012, 06:20:07 PM »
If it's a single lane in your direction of travel, sure.  But, to quote Bakari in one of his videos, "I try not to worry about people who want to go fast in the slow lane".  :)

Bakari

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2012, 06:30:18 PM »
Yup, pretty much :)

In my part of the world (and most big cities, no?) freeways have 6-10 lanes (3-5 in each direction).
I drive in the far right hand lane.

Legally, no one is allowed to drive more than the speed limit.  Each lane to the left is supposed to be to pass the one to the right of it.
So:
lane 5= 65mph
lane 4= 60mph
lane 3= 55mph
lane 2= 50mph
lane 1= 45mph

If you want to go faster than 45mph, you do this trick called "passing" where you move one lane to the right.
That's the whole reason God invented multiple lanes in the first place.


PJ

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2012, 08:56:13 PM »
If it's a single lane in your direction of travel, sure.  But, to quote Bakari in one of his videos, "I try not to worry about people who want to go fast in the slow lane".  :)
 
 
I worry a least a little bit about people who want to go fast in the slow lane ...

A few months ago, my engine coolant light came on when I was on the highway and out in the middle of nowhere - travelling between Toronto and Kingston.  I stopped in a small town and had someone briefly look at the car but this was a Sunday late afternoon and no one was available to actually do any work on it.  The guy who looked at it said he could see no problem to suggest that I couldn't keep driving it (i.e. there was plenty of coolant, the fan was working properly, etc) so I continued on to Kingston, but going only 80 km/hr in the right hand lane.  Speed limit is 100 km/hr, but all afternoon I'd been seeing people driving at least 110-120 even in the slow lane.  The fast lane was going at least 130-140 km/hr.  (Don't ask me how I know!)  Going that slowly, even in the right lane, was the most terrifying driving experience of my life.  Fully 80 % of cars (and even big transport trucks, with their professional drivers) who came up behind me in that lane came roaring up behind, tailgating me, having to slam on their brakes, and zipping around me at the last second.  Several even honked me.  I can only assume that a good percentage of them were paying so little attention that they didn't realize I was driving so much slower than everyone else, and for the rest of them, it just appeared to piss them off.  I honestly felt in greater danger of being in an accident going 80 in the slow lane than 130 in the fast lane, because of the aggressiveness it seemed to bring out in the other drivers.  To a lesser degree, I've seen the same thing with people who drive right at the speed limit on Toronto area highways.  Going 5-10 km/hr over the speed limit, people will still pass you, but if you're going at or below the speed limit, people seem to feel the need to be an ass about it. 
 
On a perhaps not unrelated note, I found out that my (astronomical) insurance premiums would be cut in half if I lived in, for example,  Barrie Ontario.  My brother's girlfriend just moved within the Toronto city limits from Oakville (suburb) and her insurance went up by $3000 for the year.  She's a new driver, driving a new car, purchased after her old car was totalled in an accident last year.  But still.  $3000 more for the year?  I could buy 3 cars similar to mine for that amount of money.  Toronto is fracking expensive, insurance-wise.
 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 09:43:12 PM by PJ »

Rangifer

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2012, 09:30:54 PM »
Yup, pretty much :)


Legally, no one is allowed to drive more than the speed limit.  Each lane to the left is supposed to be to pass the one to the right of it.
So:
lane 5= 65mph
lane 4= 60mph
lane 3= 55mph
lane 2= 50mph
lane 1= 45mph



No offense, but you're just making shit up now... and there are minimum speed laws for a reason. (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22400.htm)

Although you probably get more leeway on this than others, since it's not unreasonable for people to expect an old truck full of garbage to go slower than usual.

I guess as long as you get yours, it's whatever, right?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 09:36:22 PM by Rangifer »

Bakari

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2012, 09:42:26 PM »
@Rangifer I wasn't claiming that was the law, I was pointing out it was reasonable.

I don't know the state law in every state (or country) - in exactly what state is driving 15-20 below the limit illegal?  It sure isn't in CA, or MI, or anywhere else I know of.  I doubt it is anywhere.
I'm not suggesting driving 5mph on the freeway.

But regardless of the numbers, can you explain how I am harming anyone else?

@PJ your feeling that an accident was more likely is probably valid, however your chances of a FATAL accident are actually lower at 80 than 110, independent of the speed of other cars.  Impact force does not move linearly with speed, it is (roughly) exponential.  And rear-end impacts have less force than a head-on or side collision with another car or a barrier.

When I am going slow and everyone else is (illegally and dangerously) speeding around me, or any time I see someone come up quickly behind me, or when someone honks or flashes their highbeams (rare) I turn on my hazard lights, to make it very clear that I am there, moving slow, and won't be speeding up anytime soon.

I also have a bumper sticker that says "Drive slow: Save gas, save money, save lives" and just added to that a large orange reflective sign that says "caution: slow moving vehicle" so there is no mistake that I am doing it on purpose, not just not paying attention to my speedometer.

PJ

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2012, 09:46:25 PM »

@PJ your feeling that an accident was more likely is probably valid, however your chances of a FATAL accident are actually lower at 80 than 110, independent of the speed of other cars.  Impact force does not move linearly with speed, it is (roughly) exponential.  And rear-end impacts have less force than a head-on or side collision with another car or a barrier.

 
Absolutely, I agree.  And I knew that someone was going to point it out to me too :-) 

Rangifer

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2012, 09:50:58 PM »
@Rangifer I wasn't claiming that was the law, I was pointing out it was reasonable.

But regardless of the numbers, can you explain how I am harming anyone else?



Here's the text from the link I posted above:

 Minimum Speed Law

22400.  (a) No person shall drive upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, unless the reduced speed is necessary for safe operation, because of a grade, or in compliance with law.



For your second point, you are basically forcing a bunch of people to slow down, change lanes, and then speed up. So they burn more fuel in doing so while you save money. I'm very familiar with the area you are in and it is absolutely unreasonable to claim that the expected speed for a 2 axle vehicle in any lane is less than 65 mph.

Honestly, I could see you making the argument for going as slow as 55 since that is what the big trucks are supposed to do. But claiming that its perfectly fine to go 20 under is just ridiculous. The road is a shared place and everyone is resposible for doing their part, whether you like the fuel mileage or not.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 09:53:14 PM by Rangifer »

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2012, 10:02:29 PM »
Yup, pretty much :)


Legally, no one is allowed to drive more than the speed limit.  Each lane to the left is supposed to be to pass the one to the right of it.
So:
lane 5= 65mph
lane 4= 60mph
lane 3= 55mph
lane 2= 50mph
lane 1= 45mph



No offense, but you're just making shit up now... and there are minimum speed laws for a reason. (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22400.htm)

Although you probably get more leeway on this than others, since it's not unreasonable for people to expect an old truck full of garbage to go slower than usual.

I guess as long as you get yours, it's whatever, right?

Yes, there are minimum speed limits... and technically speaking, Bakari's example of 45MPH is within most state's posted minimum limits throughout the Eisenhower Interstate System. The minimum speed range I've seen posted is between 40-55MPH across the country, and depends heavily on what the posted maximum is... usually being set to 20MPH under. Sorry, buddy.

Rangifer

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2012, 10:08:29 PM »
Technically speaking, he's breaking California's minimum speed law.

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2012, 10:15:43 PM »
Technically speaking, he's talking in hypotheticals for a five lane highway with a maximum posted speed limit of 65MPH.

Rangifer

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2012, 10:18:12 PM »
I was talking about his real-life 45mph driving.

Edit: You know what, I've got better things to do than try and win an argument over the internet. I don't want to derail this thread any more so I'll add my experience.

Back in the last gas crunch I tried doing the 55mph in the slow lane thing in the bay area. 100% of cars in the slow lane passed me each time I did it (which is why I think 45 is ridiculous). IIRC I went from 38 to 45mpg doing this, but I felt like a dick messing up the flow of traffic so much.

In closing, I'll leave you with Jeremey Clarkson's take on this whole subject: "Drive whatever you want, just drive it less"
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 10:29:19 PM by Rangifer »

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2012, 09:09:42 AM »
It would seem we have very different interpretations of the word "reasonable", but while the law is not specific, precedent suggests it sides with me.

@Rangifer I wasn't claiming that was the law, I was pointing out it was reasonable.

But regardless of the numbers, can you explain how I am harming anyone else?


it is absolutely unreasonable to claim that the expected speed for a 2 axle vehicle in any lane is less than 65 mph.

65mph is the legal maximum.  That is not an opinion.  That is not open for interpretation.  Driving 66mph - in any lane - is a crime.  It doesn't matter if "everyone does it" and it doesn't matter if the cops choose not to enforce it.  It is a crime, and as such, it can not be considered "reasonable".  So that establishes that cars in the fast lane may go 65mph, and no faster.  65 is not, despite your personal opinion (and clearly that of many other drivers) the minimum speed limit.  The minimum speed law you posted does not say that you must drive the maximum speed limit at all times.
In fact, it is not even possible to block traffic on a multi-lane highway, as people can change lanes, so the entire law is moot. I am not forcing anyone to slow down.  Anyone who is paying attention to their driving has the ability to see that they are gaining on me, and change lanes well in advance.  As you pointed out, trucks are not supposed to go more than 55mph, so people driving at or above the limit need to be expecting others on the road going slower than them.
One is neither legally not morally obligated to avoid inconveniencing a law breaker, any more than you should feel guilty for making life hard for burglars by not leaving your front door unlocked

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2012, 10:12:43 AM »
I don't see how anyone could consider 45mph to be illegal and unreasonably slow on a 65mph road. I wonder how people advocating enforcement of minimum speed laws would feel about getting a ticket while sitting in gridlock. As Bakari points out, you don't block traffic by going slow on a multi-lane highway since other vehicles can very easily go around you at any time, which is one of the main reasons behind having multi-laners in the first place. If someone is too distracted during their drive to notice a slower vehicle ahead, what would they do if there was an obstacle in their lane? Or a loaded tractor trailer that can't go any faster? or farm equipment?

 
The road is a shared place and everyone is resposible for doing their part, whether you like the fuel mileage or not.
Which is why everyone should be prepared to share the road with slow moving traffic, whether they like their luxurious 65+ mph drive with the air-con going, the stereo blasting music, and a hot coffee in their hand or not.

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2012, 12:09:53 PM »
I think causing other vehicles to slow is inconsiderate in most cases. On a multi-lane roadway, if I want to go more slowly than the general flow of traffic, I'll use the right-most lane. And I still won't deviate from the main flow by too much. If people have to switch lanes to get around me, they may delay the vehicles in the lane they're switching too, causing a cascade effect.

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2012, 12:13:57 PM »
I learned something new today. In Washington State, as part of the minimum speed law, it is explicitly legal to exceed the speed limit to pass someone going under the speed limit (but only if there's only one lane in each direction).

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2012, 03:43:57 PM »
bakari, I'll do some tests to see if you're right about RPM's. I do have a manual transmission. Intuitively, I suspect you're wrong. Working harder does require more energy, so if I mash the accelerator, I think I'm consuming more gas than if I feather-foot it. But I'll see.

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2012, 06:05:28 PM »
Seems totally reasonable on an intuitive level, but in the end it takes a certain amount of total energy to accelerate a given amount; i.e. to a particular top speed.  Yes, it is taking more energy per second at a higher rate of acceleration, but it takes fewer seconds.  That part is general physics. 
Total Work = 1/2mass X velocity squared.  Time isn't a factor.  For details, read: http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/work_energy.htm
Think about climbing straight up a hill vs going back and forth on switchbacks.  Short hard effort, or long medium effort, but either way you end up at the same height, so they take the same total work.

For car engines specifically rapid acceleration means you can shift to a higher gear sooner, and a higher gear is more efficient.
In addition, with a gasoline engine, you minimize throttle losses the farther open the throttle is.  (This isn't a factor for diesel or electrics, which don't have a throttle).
Being a manual matters though, because an automatic will shift later the father down you press the pedal, as higher rpms = more horsepower, and if you don't shift as early as possible, you don't get the benefit of spending more time in a lower gear.


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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2012, 08:58:58 AM »
It's true that it takes the same amount of energy to accelerate a specific vehicle up to a specific speed, independent of the rate at which you do it. The key then is to accelerate using a power setting which has the brake lowest specific fuel consumption (i.e. fuel burned per unit time per unit power). Using the lowest RPM isn't always the best way to achieve that however, as it depends on the engine. Most ICEs have the best BSFC figures in the low-middle RPM range and mid-high load range, but at varies from one model to another. In other words, shifting at 3k rpm to 2k rpm may be better than shifting at 2k rpm to 1300 rpm, or shifting at 6k rpm to 4k rpm.

This article contains some BSFC charts from a few vehicles to illustrate the differences:
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Brake-Specific-Fuel-Consumption/A_112611/article.html

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2012, 01:10:52 PM »
65mph is the legal maximum.  That is not an opinion.  That is not open for interpretation.  Driving 66mph - in any lane - is a crime.
Not here. Here, the law requires that cars are operated at a reasonable speed. If 65mph is a reasonable speed, as evidenced by the fact that the state has seen fit to post it on big white signs along the freeway, then 66mph is a reasonable speed too. Going 66 is neither speeding nor illegal. Going 80 is not a reasonable speed, and as a result, you can be ticketed for going 80. But 65 is a suggestion, not a legal imperative.

Maybe Ohio is weird in that? I thought it was kinda like that everywhere (in the US... in Germany you get ticketed for a km/h over).

KulshanGirl

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2012, 02:26:17 PM »
I was under the impression that those big white signs along the freeway indicate the speed LIMIT. Hence the name, speed limit signs.  If it were otherwise, I would call them speed recommendation signs.  :)

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2012, 02:40:32 PM »
In Washington State the posted sign is indeed the legal maximum (with exceptions like the one I mentioned previously). Interestingly though, the DOT website says that they aim to set speed limits at the 85th percentile of actual drivers. In other words, they are setting up 1 in 7 drivers on any given road for speeding tickets.

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2012, 03:51:36 PM »
I was under the impression that those big white signs along the freeway indicate the speed LIMIT. Hence the name, speed limit signs.  If it were otherwise, I would call them speed recommendation signs.
Right. And maybe that's how it works in Washington, I don't know. It's not how it works in Ohio.

I was curious so I looked up the state law regarding this. Here's what I've got (emphasis mine):

4511.21 Speed limits - assured clear distance.
(A) No person shall operate a motor vehicle, trackless trolley, or streetcar at a speed greater or less than is reasonable or proper, having due regard to the traffic, surface, and width of the street or highway and any other conditions, and no person shall drive any motor vehicle, trackless trolley, or streetcar in and upon any street or highway at a greater speed than will permit the person to bring it to a stop within the assured clear distance ahead.

(B) It is prima-facie lawful, in the absence of a lower limit declared or established pursuant to this section by the director of transportation or local authorities, for the operator of a motor vehicle, trackless trolley, or streetcar to operate the same at a speed not exceeding the following:
[a dozen or so specific speed recommendations that are the basis of the signs throughout the state, like "65 mph on an interstate highway established before 1996"]


Looks like further down, there's also language stating that you can be cited for exceeding the speed limit, but I've never heard of it happening here. If you get a ticket it's for driving at an unreasonable speed, not for driving a speed in excess of the posted limits. Is that not the norm for the rest of the nation?

TLV

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2012, 04:04:34 PM »
Not in either of the places I've lived (Washington and Utah).

Washington:
Quote
Except when a special hazard exists that requires lower speed [...]the limits specified in this section [...] shall be maximum lawful speeds, and no person shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed in excess of such maximum limits.

Utah - same language as Ohio about not driving faster than reasonable, but then it has this:
Quote
If the following speed limits are exceeded, it is prima facie evidence that such speed was not reasonable or prudent.

(list of speed limits like Ohio has)

Also, when my wife got a speeding ticket in Utah, it was for going X number of miles over the speed limit.

Sounds like Ohioans are more laid back about it (or the government is less desperate for revenue from tickets).

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2012, 04:52:45 PM »
Since the federal government repealed the 55mph national speed limit every state gets to decide its own speed laws, or lack there of.
My post that spurred this discussion was referring specifically to CA state law, because its where I live (and I had previously established that I was talking about a specific highway: I-80, I-880, and I-580, in the SF / Oakland area).

The wording of the Ohio law is interesting, because following distance is inherently factored in, as well as vehicle weight.  What would be speeding under that definition for an SUV would not be for a sports car, since they can stop in much less distance.
Since you cannot be assured that the vehicle in front of you will continue at its present speed, you can't be "assured" that the road ahead is clear if you are following anyone within about 300 ft (the full stopping distance of a typical car at 60mph).  So you have to leave enough following distance that if the driver in front of you suddenly slammed on their brakes and came to a complete stop, you wouldn't hit them.

Thats actually a really good idea, and it would reduce both fatalities, national gas use, and traffic jams, but I bet Ohio troopers don't actually enforce the letter of the law

My next blog post on ecomodder.com will be all about speed, and its affect on fuel use and safety, but that won't come out until next week...

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2012, 05:15:55 PM »
It's true that it takes the same amount of energy to accelerate a specific vehicle up to a specific speed, independent of the rate at which you do it. The key then is to accelerate using a power setting which has the brake lowest specific fuel consumption (i.e. fuel burned per unit time per unit power). Using the lowest RPM isn't always the best way to achieve that however, as it depends on the engine. Most ICEs have the best BSFC figures in the low-middle RPM range and mid-high load range, but at varies from one model to another. In other words, shifting at 3k rpm to 2k rpm may be better than shifting at 2k rpm to 1300 rpm, or shifting at 6k rpm to 4k rpm.

This article contains some BSFC charts from a few vehicles to illustrate the differences:
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Brake-Specific-Fuel-Consumption/A_112611/article.html

Ahh, jees, wasn't my answer already complicated and technical enough?
OK, yes, you get the best power to fuel ratio at peak BSFC, however, that chart alone won't provide optimum shift points either.
They don't take into account the effect of gear ratio.  Optimizing power per unit fuel (fuel economy) is not the same thing as optimizing distance traveled per unit fuel (fuel mileage).  You will go a farther distance on the same amount of fuel at peak BSFC in 5th gear than you will at peak BSFC in 1st gear.  Therefor it makes sense to attempt to minimize time in a low gear and maximize time in a high gear. 

Given that (as is shown in your link) best economy (or specific fuel use) is generally relatively low RPM (1500-2000 in the sample they used) with roughly 3/4 throttle position, along with the leverage advantage of higher gearing, along with the fact the most people aren't going to look up a BSFC chart for their car, along with that most people tend to shift fairly late in the car's RPM range, I'm sticking with my original (albeit overly simplified) answer of "shift early, accelerate quickly, but never to a higher speed than you really need to go"

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2012, 09:37:12 AM »
@bakari

Great video. I had been getting about 47 mpg on my Prius until I saw how you let your truck coast. First time I did that during a 20 mile drive I managed 56 mpg! Amazing!! I coast everywhere now and love to watch people get upset when I don't drive 40 mph into a red light...haha!



I second the motion, very interesting. To be fair I am guilty of both, that is try and butt in front of a big truck, slow acceleration, and then tail gating to keep others from getting in. I have tried going slow but somehow the idea that others can sneak in makes me feel like I'm losing time.

But over the next few weeks I shall try this and report back!

As an aside I believe it was MMM who mentioned coasting in gear if you have a stick shift and while it feels counter intuitive it really does work, tried it on both our cars, my car reads 999 MPG and my wife's reads zero L/100km (less is more), but I tell you it takes some getting used to keeping it in gear.

Bakari

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2012, 10:46:22 AM »
I have tried going slow but somehow the idea that others can sneak in makes me feel like I'm losing time.

This is exactly the thing I have been thinking about recently, and planning to write about in the next couple weeks.
In short: imagine you are walking down the street.  Someone else who is in a hurry walks past you.  Does that affect you in anyway?  If you don't have to brake for them, then they aren't costing you any time.  Even if you did, you are talking fractions of a second at highway speeds.

Quote
As an aside I believe it was MMM who mentioned coasting in gear if you have a stick shift and while it feels counter intuitive it really does work, tried it on both our cars, my car reads 999 MPG and my wife's reads zero L/100km (less is more), but I tell you it takes some getting used to keeping it in gear.
depends if you want to slow down.  Coast in gear toward stoplights or signs, or when you are going to turn.  Also on really steep hills where you would go to fast in neutral.
If you don't need to slow down, you will go further / faster in neutral, because there is no engine braking.
Getting 200mpg in neutral for (for example) 60 seconds uses less fuel than infinity mpg for 20 seconds

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2012, 09:07:08 AM »
Bakari, yes you are right, I am overly complicating things by talking about BSFC, but hey, that's the engineer in me. :P You are right that just a chart like that doesn't give you ideal shift points as changing gear will change not only the RPM but also the load on the engine and you can't predict by how much without knowing the gear ratios as well as the current driving conditions (rolling resistance and drag, slope, etc). I was just throwing that in there to show that dropping RPMs is only good down to a certain limit and that limit is actually higher than expected sometimes (it was for me - I tried shifting at 2k rpm for a while and found I got worse mileage compared to my normal driving of shifting at 2500 or so, with a 2.5L 4cyl).

This is exactly the thing I have been thinking about recently, and planning to write about in the next couple weeks.
In short: imagine you are walking down the street.  Someone else who is in a hurry walks past you.  Does that affect you in anyway?  If you don't have to brake for them, then they aren't costing you any time.  Even if you did, you are talking fractions of a second at highway speeds.
This is very true if the traffic is moving steadily, which is why I found it so irrational that people got mad at me when I passed them on my motorcycle between lanes. It doesn't actually hold them up at all if I filter to the front of a long line of traffic and then take off much faster than the rest of the cars. However, I was driving in Calgary this weekend and got stuck in gridlock, and despite my best efforts to maintain a constant but slow speed by leaving a large gap my effort was constantly sabotaged by people switching into my lane whenever I had more than 2 vehicle lengths in front of me, even if it was of no benefit to them. I guess some people seem to think that if there is a gap it must mean that lane is better and the gap should be filled.


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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2012, 01:46:21 PM »

Ahh, jees, wasn't my answer already complicated and technical enough?
OK, yes, you get the best power to fuel ratio at peak BSFC, however, that chart alone won't provide optimum shift points either.
They don't take into account the effect of gear ratio.  Optimizing power per unit fuel (fuel economy) is not the same thing as optimizing distance traveled per unit fuel (fuel mileage).  You will go a farther distance on the same amount of fuel at peak BSFC in 5th gear than you will at peak BSFC in 1st gear.  Therefor it makes sense to attempt to minimize time in a low gear and maximize time in a high gear. 

Given that (as is shown in your link) best economy (or specific fuel use) is generally relatively low RPM (1500-2000 in the sample they used) with roughly 3/4 throttle position, along with the leverage advantage of higher gearing, along with the fact the most people aren't going to look up a BSFC chart for their car, along with that most people tend to shift fairly late in the car's RPM range, I'm sticking with my original (albeit overly simplified) answer of "shift early, accelerate quickly, but never to a higher speed than you really need to go"

I respectfully disagree with your gear ratio argument.  If you ignore torque and distance and just think about power, it's simpler.  You change gear ratios and throttle to move the operating point of the engine around to match your engine load and road speed.  Gears and throttle let you move from one point to another on the BSFC chart. 

Consider this BSFC chart for Volkswagen TDI, a relatively low-RPM engine.


Power curves are in blue, with legend on the right.  Increasing throttle moves you up the chart, and the engine puts out more power (blue lines); Downshifting increases RPM and moves you to the right.

This shows that the lowest fuel consumption, per unit of work, is the "197" point, at about 1750RPM.  The blue line shows the engine is putting out 50HP at this point.   This corresponds to a car accelerating quickly in a low gear, or fighting through a lot of air drag in a high gear. 

I think of BSFC at two operating points: Accelerating, and Cruising.

When I'm accelerating, I have a fixed amount of work to do, to reach my target speed (0.5mv^2).  I can do this work close to the point of max efficiency (50HP).  Or, I can do it even faster at 80HP, in even lower gears, but I'll consume 20% more fuel.  Follow the 80HP line up, and  you'll see it crosses the 250, 230, and 220 lines.  Or I can do it slower, in higher gears.  Following the 10HP line (slow acceleration), the lowest BSFC I can get is about 230, which is 15% worse than the BSFC minimum of 197.

Now, let's look at Cruising.  You have your target speed, and you don't need much power to get there.  Assume 20HP on this curve.  You can see that the best RPM is around 1100-1400 RPM.  If you have high enough gears to get there, use them, but only if you're consuming 20HP.  If you need to accelerate, you need more power, so shift to a lower gear to bring the RPMs back up towards the BSFC minimum (197).

Back to my driving rules for Accelerating and Cruising.  In my car, the torque peak is around 2800RPM, so I shift just past this point when accelerating, and I keep the vacuum gauge around 5 (80% throttle), to stay as close as possible to the minimum BSFC.  Then, once I reach cruising speed, I use the highest gear and minimum throttle to maintain that speed.

Clear as mud?  :)

TLV

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2012, 02:23:56 PM »
So, how does one figure out the best shifting points, etc. for a particular vehicle? Charts like the ones shown here don't seem to be widely available.

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2012, 02:28:56 PM »
They're not widely available.  Here is a collection:
http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/Brake_Specific_Fuel_Consumption_(BSFC)_Maps

If you do some digging and find one, post it there!