Selling Tradelines / Piggybacking Part II: $1000+/hr, 20-40k/yr. Side Gig

[flashflooder]

I eagerly signed up at the beginning of 2017, but I was only getting sales on an old but low credit limit card. Since they gave users the opportunity to cut prices on better cards, I have not received a sale. It’s been over six months. In all honesty, I’m thinking about closing my account as it seems to be a waste of time. Oh well the whopping $225 I earned was nice.

Can you explain what you mean by the bolded bit?  Did I miss something?

[Captain Mustache]

I eagerly signed up at the beginning of 2017, but I was only getting sales on an old but low credit limit card. Since they gave users the opportunity to cut prices on better cards, I have not received a sale. It’s been over six months. In all honesty, I’m thinking about closing my account as it seems to be a waste of time. Oh well the whopping $225 I earned was nice.

Can you explain what you mean by the bolded bit?  Did I miss something?

Basically, you can take a card that would be a better value to a potential AU (older, higher limit) and set it to a lower tier (cost them less, get paid less).

You could get potentially get more adds, but I'd consider it bad karma for the community as it's lowering the worth for everyone.

[el_ingeniero]

I do a fair amount of manufactured spend churning Visa Gift Cards either through online portals or for fuel rewards, mostly on my 2% cards with no annual fee.

It's worth about $600/month for 8 Walmart trips every month across a couple of credit cards.

As long as I pay off balances before the payment cycles close would I be OK, or should I get new credit cards to churn gift cards on?

[ducky19]

Holy crap - you're buying $30k worth of gift cards each month???

[dragoncar]

Holy crap - you're buying $30k worth of gift cards each month???

yeah, wut?  TEACH ME

[tj]

I do a fair amount of manufactured spend churning Visa Gift Cards either through online portals or for fuel rewards, mostly on my 2% cards with no annual fee.

It's worth about $600/month for 8 Walmart trips every month across a couple of credit cards.

As long as I pay off balances before the payment cycles close would I be OK, or should I get new credit cards to churn gift cards on?

You have to know that you'll get shut down eventually. It's not a sustainable practice. Read flyertalk.

[TomTX]

^^well, it's now Thursday and I haven't yet been paid for September adds.

September payout just showed up in my account (pending) this morning.

ACH can be slow because it is a "batch" process with a middleman between the banks. The sender cannot accurately predict when the ACH will show up in the recipient's account, nor when the recipient bank will clear it.

https://www.avidxchange.com/ach-vs-wire/

I recently began using Zelle when a friend needed to send me money. It's really easy, and really fast. Typically the payment shows up within seconds on my end (pending, but usable/added to the account balance) and fully clears no later than the next day.

You activate Zelle with your bank and give them an email address or phone number for Zelle. The sender does NOT need your account numbers or routing, they just need the email or phone you gave your bank - and at least with my bank, I used a different email address for Zelle, so the payer doesn't even need to know the email your bank uses to send you alerts/account resets/etc. This also allows you to quickly send money between your own accounts - you just give a different Zelle email to each bank.

Some formerly proprietary quick payment methods (ie ChasePay) are really Zelle now. A large chunk of major and minor banks support it: BoA, Chase, Ally, Citi, Capital One, USAA, US Bank, etc.

[robartsd]

I do a fair amount of manufactured spend churning Visa Gift Cards either through online portals or for fuel rewards, mostly on my 2% cards with no annual fee.

It's worth about $600/month for 8 Walmart trips every month across a couple of credit cards.

As long as I pay off balances before the payment cycles close would I be OK, or should I get new credit cards to churn gift cards on?

For tradeline sales, the balance on the closing date is the important thing. It should be small, but enough above zero to post to the credit report. I don't think a manufactured spending charge that got paid off before the statement closes would be a problem. I'm surprised that you have a manufactured spending system that is worthwhile for anything other than sign up bonus spending thresholds. The pattern others here have talked about here is is 1) open cards with big bonuses, 2) manufacture spending if needed to get the bonus, 3) convert to no fee product before paying annual fee if applicable, 4) offer for tradeline sales if possible after the card ages.

[Spartans]

Holy crap - you're buying $30k worth of gift cards each month???

yeah, wut?  TEACH ME

reddit.com/r/churning/

[Spartans]

I do a fair amount of manufactured spend churning Visa Gift Cards either through online portals or for fuel rewards, mostly on my 2% cards with no annual fee.

It's worth about $600/month for 8 Walmart trips every month across a couple of credit cards.

As long as I pay off balances before the payment cycles close would I be OK, or should I get new credit cards to churn gift cards on?

You have to know that you'll get shut down eventually. It's not a sustainable practice. Read flyertalk.

Folks have been doing it for years so it has been sustainable. But yeah starting now is late in the game, wells are starting to all dry up.  Post office just announced no more gift cards for money orders so Walmart or other grocery stores are the go to.  YMMV with WMT though.

Or are you saying that selling tradelines is not sustainable?

[tj]

I do a fair amount of manufactured spend churning Visa Gift Cards either through online portals or for fuel rewards, mostly on my 2% cards with no annual fee.

It's worth about $600/month for 8 Walmart trips every month across a couple of credit cards.

As long as I pay off balances before the payment cycles close would I be OK, or should I get new credit cards to churn gift cards on?

You have to know that you'll get shut down eventually. It's not a sustainable practice. Read flyertalk.

Folks have been doing it for years so it has been sustainable. But yeah starting now is late in the game, wells are starting to all dry up.  Post office just announced no more gift cards for money orders so Walmart or other grocery stores are the go to.  YMMV with WMT though.

Or are you saying that selling tradelines is not sustainable?

IMO, selling tradelines is more likely to be sustainable than mega levels of manufactured spending on lucrative cards. If you're running a 2% card, you'll probably be fine, but your margins are going to be low with the activation fees and what not that it wouldn't be worth it for most people. If you're doing a 5% card, like the old vanilla visa's at a grocery store or drug store, or the old chase freedom where you got 10 points (10 cents) per transaction, adn you ran a script for a ton of micro-transactions, the bank canceled your card after a month or 2 it.

You used to be able to buy coins from the US Mint and then deposit the coins in your bank account. Those were the days.

[Car Jack]

You used to be able to buy coins from the US Mint and then deposit the coins in your bank account. Those were the days.

And Redbird......and buying US Savings bonds with a credit card and no fee at $30k per person with a 6 month cashing in window (I got into that bigly).

There are still MS options out there.....and opportunities that purists would argue are not MS because, after all, I did pay 38 cents for that 20 gallon gas fill up.  :D

[CanuckExpat]

You used to be able to buy coins from the US Mint and then deposit the coins in your bank account. Those were the days.

It pays to have your finger on the pulse. Used to be "easy" and lucrative to MS, now it appears to be the Golden Age Of Bank Account Bonuses

Or perhaps it was. We were in for several thousand for the year in bank account bonuses (or like 20% of our retirement spending or something) and then all of a sudden we both started getting declined

Easy come, easy go

[tj]

You used to be able to buy coins from the US Mint and then deposit the coins in your bank account. Those were the days.

It pays to have your finger on the pulse. Used to be "easy" and lucrative to MS, now it appears to be the Golden Age Of Bank Account Bonuses

Or perhaps it was. We were in for several thousand for the year in bank account bonuses (or like 20% of our retirement spending or something) and then all of a sudden we both started getting declined

Easy come, easy go

Nice. It probably helps to have 2 people in your household since you can double up on all the offers.

Off topic,, but how'd you get paid to offer an opinion on fried chicken?

[arebelspy]

^^well, it's now Thursday and I haven't yet been paid for September adds.

September payout just showed up in my account (pending) this morning.

ACH can be slow because it is a "batch" process with a middleman between the banks. The sender cannot accurately predict when the ACH will show up in the recipient's account, nor when the recipient bank will clear it.

https://www.avidxchange.com/ach-vs-wire/

I recently began using Zelle when a friend needed to send me money. It's really easy, and really fast. Typically the payment shows up within seconds on my end (pending, but usable/added to the account balance) and fully clears no later than the next day.

You activate Zelle with your bank and give them an email address or phone number for Zelle. The sender does NOT need your account numbers or routing, they just need the email or phone you gave your bank - and at least with my bank, I used a different email address for Zelle, so the payer doesn't even need to know the email your bank uses to send you alerts/account resets/etc. This also allows you to quickly send money between your own accounts - you just give a different Zelle email to each bank.

Some formerly proprietary quick payment methods (ie ChasePay) are really Zelle now. A large chunk of major and minor banks support it: BoA, Chase, Ally, Citi, Capital One, USAA, US Bank, etc.

+1. I've switched some of my tenants to using Zelle. It's pretty nice.

I do a fair amount of manufactured spend churning Visa Gift Cards either through online portals or for fuel rewards, mostly on my 2% cards with no annual fee.

It's worth about $600/month for 8 Walmart trips every month across a couple of credit cards.

As long as I pay off balances before the payment cycles close would I be OK, or should I get new credit cards to churn gift cards on?

Totally.

You need to have utilization under 10%, but you can basically pay off all of the amount due except for like $3so then the statement closes with a $3 balance and reports., then pay that off (before it earns any interest).

[tj]

but you can basically pay off all of the amount due except for like $3so then the statement closes with a $3 balance and reports

Make sure it's not a card that gives a credit for small balances, I'd have it closer to $10 for that reason.

[arebelspy]

but you can basically pay off all of the amount due except for like $3so then the statement closes with a $3 balance and reports

Make sure it's not a card that gives a credit for small balances, I'd have it closer to $10 for that reason.

I haven't seen any credit that high, but sure, any small amount above what they might credit, basically. :)

[CanuckExpat]

Off topic,, but how'd you get paid to offer an opinion on fried chicken?

It was through an online survey/market research company: Respondent
They are pretty thorough about the screening, you have to link your LinkedIn etc so they verify your title, but the surveys are pretty targeted and lucrative so it makes sense.

I haven't seen anything that involves eating food in a while unfortunately.
We were getting quite a bit of money from them for offering our opinion for a while, and recently nothing (though I haven't been checking the site), either as unemployed people we aren't that attractive anymore, or they have a lot more people offering their opinion on the site

Easy come, easy go

[el_ingeniero]

Holy crap - you're buying $30k worth of gift cards each month???

Considerably less.  The credit card is not the only source of rewards.

[el_ingeniero]

I do a fair amount of manufactured spend churning Visa Gift Cards either through online portals or for fuel rewards, mostly on my 2% cards with no annual fee.

It's worth about $600/month for 8 Walmart trips every month across a couple of credit cards.

As long as I pay off balances before the payment cycles close would I be OK, or should I get new credit cards to churn gift cards on?

You have to know that you'll get shut down eventually. It's not a sustainable practice. Read flyertalk.

No arbitrage is sustainable in the long term.  It gets harder and harder, and then the bubble pops.

I'm down to one Wally within the range where it's worth my time to do this.  When that goes, on to the next thing.

[el_ingeniero]

Holy crap - you're buying $30k worth of gift cards each month???

yeah, wut?  TEACH ME

reddit.com/r/churning/

And then there's Flyertalk.  But truth be told the real action is now in small groups, either Facebook or Slack.  I think I prefer it that way.  A lot of manufactured spend depends on the locale.

Part of the problem with arbitrage is that if everyone knows the deal then things get too efficient and the profit opportunities dry up.

[sol]

Part of the problem with arbitrage is that if everyone knows the deal then things get too efficient and the profit opportunities dry up.

We call that "the free market" and it's the crowning achievement of modern capitalism.

[dragoncar]

You used to be able to buy coins from the US Mint and then deposit the coins in your bank account. Those were the days.

It pays to have your finger on the pulse. Used to be "easy" and lucrative to MS, now it appears to be the Golden Age Of Bank Account Bonuses

Or perhaps it was. We were in for several thousand for the year in bank account bonuses (or like 20% of our retirement spending or something) and then all of a sudden we both started getting declined

Easy come, easy go

I never really got bank bonuses.  Sure you get $200, but you tie up 20k for six months.  That’s a 2% return

[LovinPSDs]

You need to have utilization under 10%, but you can basically pay off all of the amount due except for like $3so then the statement closes with a $3 balance and reports., then pay that off (before it earns any interest).
[/quote]

Is the 10% rule have some post date requirement?  I have a very mature card (7+yrs) with a 25K limit but have been using it for a decent portion of my life.  I would imagine there are plenty of months where I exceeded the 10%, especially back before it was higher limit.

Thanks! Kinda coming in late here as well, but very intrigued in Tradelines.

[arebelspy]

You need to have utilization under 10%, but you can basically pay off all of the amount due except for like $3so then the statement closes with a $3 balance and reports., then pay that off (before it earns any interest).

Is the 10% rule have some post date requirement?  I have a very mature card (7+yrs) with a 25K limit but have been using it for a decent portion of my life.  I would imagine there are plenty of months where I exceeded the 10%, especially back before it was higher limit.

Thanks! Kinda coming in late here as well, but very intrigued in Tradelines.

Just on the months you have an AU on it. The past doesn't matter (except for all on time payments). There's no history of utilization stored on a credit report.

[el_ingeniero]

Part of the problem with arbitrage is that if everyone knows the deal then things get too efficient and the profit opportunities dry up.

We call that "the free market" and it's the crowning achievement of modern capitalism.

Yep.

Modern Capitalism decided to make it possible for me to acquire 350K AA miles without paying a dime out of my own pocket, and to use 260K of them to acquire $66,000 worth of business and first class plane tickets to vacation in SE Asia with my wife. And me with a 650 FICO score at the time.

In a nutshell, that was my introduction to the credit card game.  I know people who went through 10 or 12 of those signup offers as a couple.

Then Modern Capitalism woke up one day and decided to take that away from people who were late to the game.

I personally think it had way more to do with AA financing their impending merger with US Airways by selling a few bajillion miles to Citi. And Citi disposing of those miles any way it could, probably at a loss. Then Citi got tired of losing money on signup offers, so they stopped offering cards to anyone with a warm body. And AA got tired of carrying that few bajillion miles as a liability and devalued their loyalty program, and for a while made it impossible to redeem those miles for flights at more than 1/10th of a cent of airfare on the mile.

[kingxiaodi]

You used to be able to buy coins from the US Mint and then deposit the coins in your bank account. Those were the days.

It pays to have your finger on the pulse. Used to be "easy" and lucrative to MS, now it appears to be the Golden Age Of Bank Account Bonuses

Or perhaps it was. We were in for several thousand for the year in bank account bonuses (or like 20% of our retirement spending or something) and then all of a sudden we both started getting declined

Easy come, easy go

I never really got bank bonuses.  Sure you get $200, but you tie up 20k for six months.  That’s a 2% return

There are plenty that require a direct deposit or a bill pay rather than a high balance. I have about $15k set aside to use for bank bonuses, and I've made ~$2k in bonuses this year. The two major issues with it are a lack of scalability (i.e. if I had a partner, I could have used $30k to get a $4k return, but no more) and a limited number of options (the last bonus I completed was in August). The site linked above (Golden Age Of Bank Account Bonuses) was really helpful to me if you want to learn more. I won't derail this thread any further.

[newworld]

I am interested in starting this and seeing how well I can do with it.

What would expectations be as far as time spent and income (roughly) for credit lines like this:

Citi - $9,600 CL - 6yr 3mo
Capitalone - $10,500 CL - 4yr 11mo
Capitalone - $31,500 CL - 4yr 10mo
Capitalone - $10,000 CL - 4yr 9mo
Wells Fargo - $8,000 CL - 4yr 2mo
Barclay - $16,000 CL - 1yr 4mo
Chase - $22,000 CL - 1yr 4mo
Chase - $10,000 CL - 1yr 4mo
Chase - $10,000 CL - 10mo

All have perfect history, no late payments, etc.

Any information is greatly appreciated!

~NW

[CanuckExpat]

You used to be able to buy coins from the US Mint and then deposit the coins in your bank account. Those were the days.

It pays to have your finger on the pulse. Used to be "easy" and lucrative to MS, now it appears to be the Golden Age Of Bank Account Bonuses

Or perhaps it was. We were in for several thousand for the year in bank account bonuses (or like 20% of our retirement spending or something) and then all of a sudden we both started getting declined

Easy come, easy go

I never really got bank bonuses.  Sure you get $200, but you tie up 20k for six months.  That’s a 2% return

There are plenty that require a direct deposit or a bill pay rather than a high balance. I have about $15k set aside to use for bank bonuses, and I've made ~$2k in bonuses this year. The two major issues with it are a lack of scalability (i.e. if I had a partner, I could have used $30k to get a $4k return, but no more) and a limited number of options (the last bonus I completed was in August). The site linked above (Golden Age Of Bank Account Bonuses) was really helpful to me if you want to learn more. I won't derail this thread any further.

I agree with kingxiaodi that you have to check each offer to see if it makes sense and that I shouldn't derail this thread further.
dragoncar if you are interested, there is a thread with more details here, and I posted a response with specific exampe to you there: Bank account churning: how to make $1600 in a year by being organized

[arebelspy]

What would expectations be as far as time spent and income (roughly) for credit lines like this:
...

I'd really rather not answer questions like this in general, cause they're 1) Unknowable, and 2) I don't want people posting their list of cards all the time, and hoping to see some specific numbers, that will not make an interesting or useful thread.

Allow me to answer more broadly, and hope it will help others as well.

The young ones you may make a few hundred per year. The older a few thousand.  Overall I'd expect to see--given the current state of the market--maybe 5-10k for maybe 5-10 hours of work per year.

Could be significantly more (2x that), or less (to the point of $0), I'm just ballparking based on what others have seen. It tends to be feast or famine, lots of sales, or very few, so it's more likely to see one extreme than in the middle (i.e. very fat tails).

[Gin1984]

You used to be able to buy coins from the US Mint and then deposit the coins in your bank account. Those were the days.

It pays to have your finger on the pulse. Used to be "easy" and lucrative to MS, now it appears to be the Golden Age Of Bank Account Bonuses

Or perhaps it was. We were in for several thousand for the year in bank account bonuses (or like 20% of our retirement spending or something) and then all of a sudden we both started getting declined

Easy come, easy go

I never really got bank bonuses.  Sure you get $200, but you tie up 20k for six months.  That’s a 2% return

I've never tied up $20K.  Most of the time I get around $150 for $500-1000/month direct deposit.  That money does not sit there, I use it for my general expenses.  Normally there is a $1000 ish sitting there to avoid fees but that is it.

[lmf]

Was told the money should be in my account today... still nothing. I have not received an add for an AU since the first time I pointed out I wasn't paid back in September. Prior to that I was getting several AUs at least every other month. Coincidence? Possibly... doesn't feel like it though.

Same thing happened here.  I used to get a sale on one card every month.  But then payment was super late one month and I emailed to ask about it.  Since then no sales.

[LovinPSDs]

I'd be interested to know when Chase goes back live.  I think my card is a good candidate but not going to bother should Chase be on the radar.  I just doubled checked my credit report and that cards been open since 2008!!

[hhauewr]

Old company is taking Chase again. Do you know if they take AU's SSN over the phone?

[LovinPSDs]

Old company is taking Chase again. Do you know if they take AU's SSN over the phone?

I have not actually done it, but my web portal on Chase has an option to add AU online.

[Spartans]

If the company catches on and shuts you down, do they only close that card or close all your accounts with them?  I'm concerned about it being the latter with Chase.  Wouldn't want to put my UR's in jeopardy for a few hundred bucks.

[arebelspy]

Yep. All the other companies shut down the one card. Chase shuts them all down. I don't personally use Chase for this reason. Even though the rate of closures is low, not worth it to me.

[Spartans]

Gotcha.  I only hold Chase cards so I guess I'm sitting this one out.

ARS - I think I saw that you had 500K UR's, did you accumulate all of those through churning? 

[arebelspy]

Gotcha.  I only hold Chase cards so I guess I'm sitting this one out.

ARS - I think I saw that you had 500K UR's, did you accumulate all of those through churning?

Yep. Down to just under 400k now, we've been spending them recently without any efforts to accumulate more.

[JohnGalt79]

Yep. All the other companies shut down the one card. Chase shuts them all down. I don't personally use Chase for this reason. Even though the rate of closures is low, not worth it to me.

Do you know if checking/savings accounts would also be included in a shut-down scenario with Chase, or is it limited to the credit cards?

[arebelspy]

That is my understanding, yes. All your Chase accounts, and I have heard accounts associated with your address (e.g. potentially spouse's accounts).  Further, they blacklist you from applying for new accounts, from what I understand.

I cannot confirm this.

I can confirm B of A just shuts down the one card, and this is the same with all other providers; just shut down the one card, and you can still get new accounts with them.

[JohnGalt79]

That is my understanding, yes. All your Chase accounts, and I have heard accounts associated with your address (e.g. potentially spouse's accounts).  Further, they blacklist you from applying for new accounts, from what I understand.

I cannot confirm this.

I can confirm B of A just shuts down the one card, and this is the same with all other providers; just shut down the one card, and you can still get new accounts with them.

Ok, thanks.  That's very helpful to know.

[kpd905]

I should know this, but when is the payout?  I added two users on October 6th for an October 9th statement closing date.  Should I have gotten paid end of November or do they typically go a few days past?  It has been a while since I had an add.

[secondcor521]

I should know this, but when is the payout?  I added two users on October 6th for an October 9th statement closing date.  Should I have gotten paid end of November or do they typically go a few days past?  It has been a while since I had an add.

For me it's usually between the 16th and the 21st of the month to receive payments.  So if you weren't paid on or around 11/20, I would look to be paid around 12/20.

[sol]

I should know this, but when is the payout?  I added two users on October 6th for an October 9th statement closing date.  Should I have gotten paid end of November or do they typically go a few days past?  It has been a while since I had an add.

As mentioned above by multiple people, we haven't had a single add since we complained about not getting paid one time.  Whatever you do, do NOT contact them to find out why you haven't been paid because it seems they will vindictively punish you if you're a "problem" account.   It's probably better to let them just screw you out of one month's AU fee rather than losing all AUs forever, which is what has happened to us after being a squeaky wheel.

This whole business model seemed vaguely shady from the outset, and nothing about my interactions with them has done anything to assuage that feeling.  You're effectively dealing in a black market, so you probably have to accept some degree of graft.

[topshot]

I would have thought that I wouldn't get paid until after I was told to remove them as AU. It would seem odd to me to be paid before the 60-90 days was up. I could end up removing them too early whether by accident or not.

Speaking of removing and adding, I see that I apparently have 2 new AUs on one card later this month to replace the current two. Is it wise to remove both in the same day and then add 2 others the next day? I'd think it would better to deal with only one AU at a time (i.e., never add/delete more than 1 per day or at least per call).

[kpd905]

Whatever you do, do NOT contact them to find out why you haven't been paid because it seems they will vindictively punish you if you're a "problem" account. 

Interesting, thanks for the advice.  I wasn't going to contact them anytime soon because I figured I just forgot about the payment terms.  I am getting 3-5 adds per month on the old company, this was my first sale on this one in many months.

[secondcor521]

I would have thought that I wouldn't get paid until after I was told to remove them as AU. It would seem odd to me to be paid before the 60-90 days was up. I could end up removing them too early whether by accident or not.

Speaking of removing and adding, I see that I apparently have 2 new AUs on one card later this month to replace the current two. Is it wise to remove both in the same day and then add 2 others the next day? I'd think it would better to deal with only one AU at a time (i.e., never add/delete more than 1 per day or at least per call).

You can get paid before removal.  I have.  I think they reserve the right to claw back the payment if you screw up, but I'm not sure.

The official guidance I believe is to only add or delete in a single phone call but that it is OK to add multiple or delete multiple.  I prefer to only add or delete a single AU per phone call, but I'll happily do it all in the same day.  So if I were in your situation, I'd make four phone calls in a single day.

[max9505672]

Is this technique is not applicable in Canada?

[ducky19]

So I was looking back at my order history for the year and noticed that one of my cards was paid at the wrong tier - it was put in as $75 but should have paid $175. I have an email from them that confirms the payout for that card should be $175 from before that AU was added. I just sent an email requesting the additional $100, and informing them that another card has moved tiers as well. We will see what the result is. I definitely like the payout tiers better at this company vs. the old company, but if things don't improve here with on time/correct payouts, I'll be moving all of my cards to the old company. I just moved one that had gotten no action with the new company and have already gotten a sale.