Selling Tradelines / Piggybacking Part II: $1000+/hr, 20-40k/yr. Side Gig

[arebelspy]

120 applications...  That sounds very high.

That number is not correct--I haven't even sent that many PMs.

Maybe he means total emails counting back and forth with some people?  Even then, it seems high.  I wasn't going to bother to argue it; I'm guessing a number was just thrown out.  :)

I'm betting he's received maybe a dozen completed applications, maybe two.

It will get up there, though, over the next few weeks.  I'm not worried; like I said, I expect them to be able to handle the volume better.

Like I wrote in the "recommendations" part of the analysis post: there could reach a point where the new company is over-saturated, and the old recommendation gets more AUs, and it makes sense to have the cards with them (or some cards with each).

Right now, all of my cards and my wife's are with the new recommendations, and I have no plans to change that for at least six months, simply because I think that will make me more money.

ARS, do you know how many Mustachians signed up with the old recommendation?

Yes.

It was a fraction of that number, and that was after multiple weeks across two rounds of signups.

Don't worry about FUD, or let other's worries deter you from taking action.   :)

[FrugalSaver]

What is the impact of a hard pull on your credit score?  Mine is well over 800 from my last Credit Karma report, so I'm not too concerned about it, but was curious if I try to bump several cards up, and they each do a hard pull, which they will, what the impact may be and how long it may take to recover?

[arebelspy]

What is the impact of a hard pull on your credit score?  Mine is well over 800 from my last Credit Karma report, so I'm not too concerned about it, but was curious if I try to bump several cards up, and they each do a hard pull, which they will, what the impact may be and how long it may take to recover?

Minimal.  Slight dip for a month, then bounce back.  Inquiries are a fairly small factor in your report.

I have 12 inquiries from within the last 2 years (yay travel hacking), and my score is 800+.  The wife has 7 or 8, and is 800+.

I may have missed this in the old thread, but do you have any idea if downgraded cards have a new opening date or keep the date from the original card?  I have a Barclay Arrival that I downgraded from an Arrival+ about 6 months ago.  If it uses the original date, the card is 2.5 years old and would be eligible.

A downgraded card should keep all original info, and thus be eligible.  I'd double check it on CreditKarma, or call Barclays to confirm, just to be sure, but you should be fine.  :)

[kudy]

Thanks for all the new info! 

I may have missed this in the old thread, but do you have any idea if downgraded cards have a new opening date or keep the date from the original card?  I have a Barclay Arrival that I downgraded from an Arrival+ about 6 months ago.  If it uses the original date, the card is 2.5 years old and would be eligible.

Downgraded cards usually have the original card's opening date. You should be able to verify this by looking at records at Credit Karma - you'll see an open line for your Barclay card, and it should list an opening date.

[boarder42]

my goal is 3k a month on AUs by end of 2017.  based on the cards i have open and their ages that should be easily doable.

remember all this is taxed though.

[MFG_Hotspur]

Does anyone having experience reopening a credit card 6+ after it closes?

I closed a Cit CC back in October that will be 2 years old in July due to the large annual fee and I am thinking asking them to reopen it after I try this out for two of my other cards for a couple months.

[tj]

Does anyone having experience reopening a credit card 6+ after it closes?

I closed a Cit CC back in October that will be 2 years old in July due to the large annual fee and I am thinking asking them to reopen it after I try this out for two of my other cards for a couple months.

I don't think you can re-open. I think you'd have to apply for a new account.

[boarder42]

no way to open that card back up. too much time has passed.  citi is becoming increasingly difficult to deal with as well.  you cant transfer credit limit between cards anymore.

[kevc]

Hey quick question, is this only for the states or can we do this in Canada as wellÉ

[sirdoug007]

my goal is 3k a month on AUs by end of 2017.  based on the cards i have open and their ages that should be easily doable.

remember all this is taxed though.

$3k a month would be crazy, and awesome but that is 13 adds per month with well seasoned $20k+ cards. $3k a month for very very little work.

I think ARS' example at $3300/2 months or $1650/mo is more realistic myself as a maximum.

[TomTX]

Got an email from the new company with the docs for enrollment.

[solon]

I sent in my enrollment docs over the weekend. Today I got an email thanking me for joining. It said I would be in the system within 1-2 weeks.

[arebelspy]

my goal is 3k a month on AUs by end of 2017.  based on the cards i have open and their ages that should be easily doable.

remember all this is taxed though.

$3k a month would be crazy, and awesome but that is 13 adds per month with well seasoned $20k+ cards. $3k a month for very very little work.

I think ARS' example at $3300/2 months or $1650/mo is more realistic myself as a maximum.

It's a big goal, but why not go for it, if you have cards that fit, and/or will be aging into it by then?  :D

Also keep in mind having a spouse can double it for your household.  The wife and I have 6 eligible cards each at the moment (and had we not cancelled a couple a few months before learning about tradelines due to annual fees, we'd have more, and if we hadn't cancelled a bunch prior to leaving the country just for simplicity's sake about 10 months before learning of the tradelines we'd have more like 10-12 each).  CCs can accumulate if you've been building your credit for awhile and then tossing them in drawers.

[arebelspy]

Hey quick question, is this only for the states or can we do this in Canada as wellÉ

No, I've never heard of a Canadian tradeline company--I think your credit scores must be reported differently or something.  That's my best guess as to why.

[Shade00]

So how long after the add can you remove the AUs? Is this set by the credit card, the company, or what?

[TomTX]

So how long after the add can you remove the AUs? Is this set by the credit card, the company, or what?

60 days is typical.

[arebelspy]

So how long after the add can you remove the AUs? Is this set by the credit card, the company, or what?

Usually you keep them on for two months (some issuers that are pickier it's three, to have less chance of raising red flags).  The tradeline company will tell you when to remove them (the old company via the portal, the new one via email).

[TomTX]

Yep, I have exchanged email with the contact at the new company and I believe I have everything submitted. Had a last-minute CL increase between when I sent my initial email to them and actually submitting the paperwork ($15k -> $20k) thanks to a phone call followup with the CC company after the earlier denial.

FYI, Citi can transfer credit line between cards, but most people at Citi have no idea WTF you are talking about, especially the front line CSRs. I was transferred numerous times and it was quite a long call. Basically once you strip out the "WTF" people it needed to go through: Another credit line increase request -> denied -> transfer credit line from another Citi card.

[MsFrugalista]

Just sent an email to new company and within 30 mins I received the paperwork to complete and send over. Looks like it was an email template, so not surprised that it was that fast, but also appreciated the quick response. I have sent over the necessary information so we will see how fast they process given the recent increase in applications.

Now I just need all my cards to age and credit lines to increase! I was a heavy Citi churner for the past few years (until their rules changed) and often decreased my CL to below $5000 so it would not affect my subsequent applications, now that's backfiring on me! But I have 3 cards with new company and will keep 2 with the old and see how it all goes. Thank you again ARS :)

Update: received receipt of my paperwork 5 mins after sending it over. Really liking the response rate! They mentioned in their response that they have signed up quite a few cards in the last week (hehe) so there's a good chance it'll be 3-4 weeks before they start having orders for me (2 cards with 20K+ limit, 1 card 10K limit; all cards under 4 years of age), but they will come. I'll be curious to see how new company does compared to old. I will report back once I get some sales.

[arebelspy]

Update: received receipt of my paperwork 5 mins after sending it over. Really liking the response rate! They mentioned in their response that they have signed up quite a few cards in the last week (hehe) so there's a good chance it'll be 3-4 weeks before they start having orders for me (2 cards with 20K+ limit, 1 card 10K limit; all cards under 4 years of age), but they will come. I'll be curious to see how new company does compared to old. I will report back once I get some sales.

Thanks for the data!  We'll track/aggregate it among us over the next 1-2 months.  :)

Someone post when you get an order (I already am, including 3 just a few days ago, but I've been in the system a few months, obviously)--hopefully within the next week, maybe two, but depends on when your closing dates are.  :)

[tj]

I sent my stuff early this morning and they replied around 5pm pacific. They didn't tell me when i will start seeing orders, but I didn't ask.

[mynewchoice]

As with the original thread, thank you for sharing all of your detailed research with us ARS.  In reading through this new thread, there were two questions that I have that I did not see anyone ask:

1) With the old company and their original tiers, they paid more for cards over 15 years.  Do you know if the new company does anything like that?  I noticed your rate table mentioned they would quote you for $40k+ limits but it seems the age is not factored for a custom quote.

2) As the new company does everything via email, does that mean that they are sending you the AU's information (address, SSN, etc.) via plain text email messages?  Given their thorough vetting processes that you mentioned, that seems like a glaring security risk to be distributing all of that information via email.

Also, I was checking on the Discover website just now to see what information they ask for when adding an AU (in relation to my question above), and I noticed the following in their FAQ regarding AUs:

Authorized users can report any lost or stolen cards, obtain account information, initiate billing disputes, request statement copies, make payments and inquire about fees.

I am not sure if the AU would need more information than they obtain through this process in order to call and obtain account information, or request a statement copy, but that gives me a little hesitation as I mull that over to see what that could potentially expose to an AU.  I believe the AU will see my name and address on their credit report, or at least I seem to recall reading that previously or discussing that with the old company.

Thanks again for your thorough research and sharing with all of us here!

[arebelspy]

As with the original thread, thank you for sharing all of your detailed research with us ARS.  In reading through this new thread, there were two questions that I have that I did not see anyone ask:

1) With the old company and their original tiers, they paid more for cards over 15 years.  Do you know if the new company does anything like that?  I noticed your rate table mentioned they would quote you for $40k+ limits but it seems the age is not factored for a custom quote.

Yes, they likely will.  Cards with high limits and/or high age are open for negotiation, as they're in much higher demand. Email and ask for a custom quote.  :)

2) As the new company does everything via email, does that mean that they are sending you the AU's information (address, SSN, etc.) via plain text email messages?  Given their thorough vetting processes that you mentioned, that seems like a glaring security risk to be distributing all of that information via email.

Yes, this is the case.  It would be worth bringing up your concerns to the owner.

This is a valid concern, IMO, for an AU.  Obviously you have less at risk as a cardholder, but security in general is a concern when dealing with any of this (the company has your SSN as a cardholder to issue you the 1099), and how the company handles stuff like that may be a deterrent for you.

I will email the owner and inquire about security practices, and follow up here.

EDIT: His response available via PM. Short answer: It is a concern for AUs, not card holders, though they are informed on signup that it will be shared, I'm not sure to the extent, and is one reason why they need to get the portal up and running.

Also, I was checking on the Discover website just now to see what information they ask for when adding an AU (in relation to my question above), and I noticed the following in their FAQ regarding AUs:

Authorized users can report any lost or stolen cards, obtain account information, initiate billing disputes, request statement copies, make payments and inquire about fees.

I am not sure if the AU would need more information than they obtain through this process in order to call and obtain account information, or request a statement copy, but that gives me a little hesitation as I mull that over to see what that could potentially expose to an AU.  I believe the AU will see my name and address on their credit report, or at least I seem to recall reading that previously or discussing that with the old company.

Theoretically in some cases an AU could do something.  In actuality, they won't have enough information on you to "verify" when they call in, or be able to do anything.

As I said before in the thread:

The company I recommend has NEVER had an AU get a card and spend money on it, and they've been doing this for ten years. My previous recommendation, who has been in business four years, have also never had that happen.  Fourteen combined years, thousands and thousands of tradeline sales, zero instances of this.  I'm not worried about it happening in the slightest.

That may have been missed by a lot of people, because I put it in the first post (which I tweaked/updated) as new information, but I'm betting a lot of people who read the old thread skipped that first post since 80% of the content was the same.

That (14 years combined experience with thousands and thousands of AUs) personally moved me past the "slightly worried about the theoretical possibility" to "not worried about the actual real world possibility."

But, of course, do what you're comfortable with.  :)

[homestead neohio]

Thanks for the write-up.  PM sent.  I did not get in on the old company before they shut down accepting new applicants.

[arebelspy]

Update- I submitted my info for just one card (Capitol One, 18 months old, $10k CL) and received this reply:

Thanks for contacting us but unfortunately we can only accept cards that are at least 2-3 years old AND over $10k limit. Save our information though as we can sign you up in June once your card hits 2 year of age.

This doesn't seem to jive with the payout schedule for New Company that ARS posted at the start of the thread- has anyone else received a similar response?

Please see this post:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/selling-tradelines-piggybacking-part-ii-$1000hr-20-40kyr-side-gig/msg1358547/#msg1358547

[arebelspy]

ugh, must have missed that one, thanks ARS.

No worries, sorry about that!  :)

Exceptions are made if one part is high, even if the other is low... so if you can bump your credit line, he'll likely accept it early, otherwise try again in a few months (or possibly sooner, I will update if that's the case, right now they're just scrambling to enroll all the cards they can that will sell well, then can enroll the others after things slow down).

In other words, right now they want cards that are > 2 yrs, 10k+, BUT cards under 10k, but with a long history might be accepted, or cards well over 20k, but less than 2 years might be accepted. If you have both, great, but a good one of one can make up for a weaker one of the other, if that makes sense.  :)

[arebelspy]

I requested a limit increase online, but I haven't used the card in a while. This might be a deterrent.

I have a young Cap One card with a $30k limit. After I get a decision on the increase for the first card, I'll call to have this limit transferred to my older card. I may have missed posts about this, but does anyone know if Cap One is strict about doing this?

Might as well request an increase on the newer one, too, before you transfer the credit over.  :)

As far as transferring it, it's easy with Capital One, you can even do it online!
http://www.doctorofcredit.com/you-can-now-consolidatereallocate-credit-limits-with-capital-one-online-and-close-cards/

Rules for all card issuers regarding transferring credit:
http://www.doctorofcredit.com/rules-for-reallocating-your-credit-limit-with-each-credit-card-issuer/

[arebelspy]

yeah I tried increasing the CL online but got the same response as MJ, because the card has had very little activity in the past year or so. I may try calling to see if they'll reconsider but I don't expect much without more (recent) activity on the card. Looks like the CL consolidation requires cards to have been open for 6 months, so I'm gonna look for a new Capital One card to sign up for tonight, and then 6 months from now I can close that and add its CL to my existing one, which will at that point be 2 years old.

Unfortunately my other cards are Chase/AmEx so this is the only card I have right now that I can use.

Good plan.  Only don't close the old one. Just transfer all of its credit except for like $500, and leave it open.  Then you'll have two you can be asking for line increases on, and a second one to age and eventually enroll (splitting some credit back, if necessary).

And once you have this card eligible, Chase will work too (it just needs another card with it), though Chase is riskier.

[aetherie]

I sent in the paperwork this morning to enroll my first card (2.5 years old, Barclays, $20k limit). This will be a fun experiment!

[MEJG]

What is the current thinking with Chase?

[arebelspy]

What is the current thinking with Chase?

1) You need another (non-Chase) card with it, and lines on both have to be sold, so that the Chase will show up correctly (it doesn't report on its own, but another card showing up on the AU's report will help the Chase "link" correctly via this paired card).

2) Chase is the riskiest one to use, as they tend to cancel cards more often than other providers.  Thus you only do 2-3 sales every 3 months (versus, say, Barclays that's 4-5 every month).

I am not doing any Chase sales (though I did do some with the new company to test out the "pairing" process, I then requested my open lines on them be dropped to zero) because I have over 500k in Ultimate Rewards (5k cash if I wanted to redeem it as statement credits, otherwise a lot of travel) that I don't want to risk disappearing if our cards are closed.

If and when I spend all that, I'll consider enrolling my Chase cards again. I have cards enrolled I don't care if they get cancelled (Capital One, Barclays, B of A, etc.).  If you're okay with your Chase cards being cancelled, you can use them, but they are higher risk.

Does that answer your question, or did you mean something else?

[MEJG]

That answered it ARS.  I was wondering about risk being the same or different with Chase and the new company.  We cannot afford to lose our Chase accounts so I won't be using them.  Which is a shame since that leaves us with 2 cards to use, a Citi and a Capital One.  We will have a BOA to use in 9 months, but we just started churning for rewards this summer so will have more in a couple years.

[arebelspy]

Yeah, the old company is not accepting Chase at all anymore.  They're a hassle.  Too bad.

For anyone who does have good Chase cards and is okay with the risk. it's good money.

[hoodedfalcon]

So far [MOD EDIT: Company info redacted] has been great to work with. I just sent in my paperwork. I decided to leave off the Chase cards and only do my USAA card for now. Need to open more credit cards apparently! Looking forward to extra dollars!

[MasterStache]

All set up with the new company. Thanks again ARS for all the info. Was told not to expect any sales until February because of my payment date, but sold a spot already. USAA asked a bit more questions than I anticipated (single, married etc, contact info). But it still went smoothly.

[secondcor521]

All set up with the new company. Thanks again ARS for all the info. Was told not to expect any sales until February because of my payment date, but sold a spot already. USAA asked a bit more questions than I anticipated (single, married etc, contact info). But it still went smoothly.

Does the new company provide all of the info that USAA requires?  It sounds like it...

Also, as an FYI to everyone, the new company does not monitor the age of your account and automatically bump your payouts as they age past the 2- and 8-year marks.  You have to manually notify them.

[tj]

Obviously you have less at risk as a cardholder, but security in general is a concern when dealing with any of this (the company has your SSN as a cardholder to issue you the 1099)

If you're concerned about the security of this, just get an EIN. It's free from the IRS and I have one entirely so that I don't have to give out my SSN for various freelancing opportunities. If my EIN gets compromised, I suppose that would suck, but not as bad as my SSN.

[TomTX]

Obviously you have less at risk as a cardholder, but security in general is a concern when dealing with any of this (the company has your SSN as a cardholder to issue you the 1099)

If you're concerned about the security of this, just get an EIN. It's free from the IRS and I have one entirely so that I don't have to give out my SSN for various freelancing opportunities. If my EIN gets compromised, I suppose that would suck, but not as bad as my SSN.

Rolled my paperwork into a password protected zip, emailed that and phoned in the password.

EIN tip is great, i never looked into that.

[dragoncar]

Obviously you have less at risk as a cardholder, but security in general is a concern when dealing with any of this (the company has your SSN as a cardholder to issue you the 1099)

If you're concerned about the security of this, just get an EIN. It's free from the IRS and I have one entirely so that I don't have to give out my SSN for various freelancing opportunities. If my EIN gets compromised, I suppose that would suck, but not as bad as my SSN.

Rolled my paperwork into a password protected zip, emailed that and phoned in the password.

EIN tip is great, i never looked into that.

Yeah I would at least password protect it.  Not foolproof, but prevents random intermediaries from just skimming the info

[FrugalZony]

I actually asked the company if they had a safe upload for the paperwork as I had similar concerns as some other posters.
They suggested I just fax it, which I did.
They confirmed the reception the first day they were back in the office.

HTH someone!

[arebelspy]

Was told not to expect any sales until February because of my payment date, but sold a spot already.

Wow, that was fast.  :)

[Joel]

Obviously you have less at risk as a cardholder, but security in general is a concern when dealing with any of this (the company has your SSN as a cardholder to issue you the 1099)

If you're concerned about the security of this, just get an EIN. It's free from the IRS and I have one entirely so that I don't have to give out my SSN for various freelancing opportunities. If my EIN gets compromised, I suppose that would suck, but not as bad as my SSN.

This is a solid recommendation. Thanks for sharing.

[MasterStache]

Was told not to expect any sales until February because of my payment date, but sold a spot already.

Wow, that was fast.  :)

Yes it was. Could be the 20k+ limit and the fact that the card is over 10 years old now. Sold another last minute spot. Hope they don't ask more personal questions about the AU (like weather they are single or not).

[MasterStache]

All set up with the new company. Thanks again ARS for all the info. Was told not to expect any sales until February because of my payment date, but sold a spot already. USAA asked a bit more questions than I anticipated (single, married etc, contact info). But it still went smoothly.

Does the new company provide all of the info that USAA requires?  It sounds like it...

Also, as an FYI to everyone, the new company does not monitor the age of your account and automatically bump your payouts as they age past the 2- and 8-year marks.  You have to manually notify them.

I think USAA was just asking general questions. They asked me if they were a military veteran as well. I think they were looking to recruit more folks to USAA.

[d4future]

got setup with new company also. I have an LLC which I use for all these freelancing/side gigs projects so I don't have to share my SSN with everyone and their grandma.

Thanks arebelspy for the recommendation!

[boarder42]

after travel hacking the last few years its very interesting to me personally how my new selections of signups are revolving around what will get me the most bang for my buck with adding AUs ... i no longer care as much about the sign up bonuses

[MasterStache]

after travel hacking the last few years its very interesting to me personally how my new selections of signups are revolving around what will get me the most bang for my buck with adding AUs ... i no longer care as much about the sign up bonuses

Yep. Although our travel hacking has slowed a bit. Just 1 or 2 cards here and there now. Definitely not closing cards down as often.

[cheapass]

Obviously you have less at risk as a cardholder, but security in general is a concern when dealing with any of this (the company has your SSN as a cardholder to issue you the 1099)

If you're concerned about the security of this, just get an EIN. It's free from the IRS and I have one entirely so that I don't have to give out my SSN for various freelancing opportunities. If my EIN gets compromised, I suppose that would suck, but not as bad as my SSN.

Do you need to have the cards registered to the EIN? Or what is the advantage of establishing an EIN?

[boarder42]

Obviously you have less at risk as a cardholder, but security in general is a concern when dealing with any of this (the company has your SSN as a cardholder to issue you the 1099)

If you're concerned about the security of this, just get an EIN. It's free from the IRS and I have one entirely so that I don't have to give out my SSN for various freelancing opportunities. If my EIN gets compromised, I suppose that would suck, but not as bad as my SSN.

Do you need to have the cards registered to the EIN? Or what is the advantage of establishing an EIN?

unless you already have something setup for something like that the costs wont be worth it.  i'd assume you'd have to claim as a company if you did that vs misc income making you responsible for all the FICA taxes on your money in addition to federal and state income taxes.

[tj]

Obviously you have less at risk as a cardholder, but security in general is a concern when dealing with any of this (the company has your SSN as a cardholder to issue you the 1099)

If you're concerned about the security of this, just get an EIN. It's free from the IRS and I have one entirely so that I don't have to give out my SSN for various freelancing opportunities. If my EIN gets compromised, I suppose that would suck, but not as bad as my SSN.

Do you need to have the cards registered to the EIN? Or what is the advantage of establishing an EIN?

The EIN is for the purpose of not giving your SSN on the W9 to the tradeline company, it has nothing to do with your credit cards.