Author Topic: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it  (Read 116149 times)

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2014, 07:24:23 AM »
Update: I spent $50 on parts and installed a 7.2kW EV charging station ($590) myself. It didn't take much knowledge or skill to do the electrical work to code. And there are a ton of videos online with electricians showing you how to do it. Since I did it myself I saved about $1400, and I added a plug to the charging station so that I can take it on the road with me and plug it in where 240v outlets are available (for dryers, RVs, etc). I could have gotten by with the charging station that comes with the car and plugs into a standard 120v household outlet, but the new one allows up to 5 times faster charging (about 25-30 miles of added range per hour of charging).

It turns out that having the faster charging station also saves energy too. Since it charges more quickly, there's less overhead from the car's charging activity (fans, inverters, etc). Versus the trickle charge (standard household outlet) I save about 4-5 kWh ($0.30 to $1 for typical US electric rates) charging from 20% to 100%. Some of the decreased energy use is probably from decreased loss from inversion--it's already 240V so there's less loss to step it up to 400V (what the battery uses) than starting from 120V.

Another bonus that I am noticing is that my electric bill should actually be about the same after getting the car vs before getting it. The key is that I changed to the electric vehicle rate plan (super cheap at night), which also lets nighttime electric use in the house (fridge, A/C, lights) be super cheap at night. And I now use thermostat programming to shut off my A/C during the high peak hours so I avoid those rates almost entirely. I was on a standard plan (flat rate per kWh no matter when you use it). So it might actually be free to drive it (we also don't put a ton of miles in--maybe 10k/year).
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 06:44:02 PM by forummm »

tomsang

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2014, 11:46:46 AM »
Just leased a Leaf- I was considering purchasing one, but we are stuck paying the Alternative Minimum Tax for our federal taxes I am in a state that doesn't have an income tax, but did save the sales tax.  The $7,500 would be stuck as a carry forward until we retire.  For the lease the $7,500 is considered a down payment so we get a benefit on the payment 

The other area that I heard from many people relates to the fact that the cars will depreciate very quickly as the EV world is in its infancy and new models have significant improvements vs. gas where the improvements are minimally incremental.  The salespeople believe that as all of the people come off their leases and the new cars have significantly better ranges and efficiencies that the 2014/2015 models will be hard to move.  I am using my Leaf as a commuter car.  Leased a 2015 at $0 down, $290/month for 24 months.  23 payments.  I was using an SUV for a 20 mile each way commuter(I say in shame), so the monthly payment is less than my fuel bill yet I have no oil changes, no maintenance, no depreciation, and we now have another family car as we have four kids coming into driving ages. 

So a major take away is to look at your AMT calculations (federal form 6251 and state form) to determine if you have any room for the credit.  If not the Lease may be a good deal.  $190/month if you want a 36 monthly lease.  Zero down, 35 months.  You can buy the car at the residual which was about $15k for the 24 month lease or $13k for the 36 month lease.     

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2014, 12:46:36 PM »
Just leased a Leaf- I was considering purchasing one, but we are stuck paying the Alternative Minimum Tax for our federal taxes I am in a state that doesn't have an income tax, but did save the sales tax.  The $7,500 would be stuck as a carry forward until we retire.  For the lease the $7,500 is considered a down payment so we get a benefit on the payment

Good point for those who bump into the AMT. It also applies to those who don't have enough taxable income to take full advantage of the tax credit themselves.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2014, 01:13:36 PM »
The other area that I heard from many people relates to the fact that the cars will depreciate very quickly as the EV world is in its infancy and new models have significant improvements vs. gas where the improvements are minimally incremental.  The salespeople believe that as all of the people come off their leases and the new cars have significantly better ranges and efficiencies that the 2014/2015 models will be hard to move.

The unpredictability of the depreciation was the biggest source of hesitation for me before I bought. Here's the way I thought about it. First, I don't plan to ever sell it, so resale value isn't as important to me as longevity of the vehicle and cost over the duration. But life is unpredictable, so I still considered if I needed or chose to sell it at some point.

The average new car depreciates 63% in the first 5 years (source: Edmunds). So on a $32k Leaf that's an expected value at 5 years of about $12k. My net purchase cost is $13.5k, so it's pretty close right there.

The tax credits further distort the resale value until they expire or are cancelled, since the competition is against a new car minus tax credits. They will expire for different manufacturers at a different rate. Nissan's will almost certainly expire first (they're already about 1/3 of the way to the 200k sales mark where the federal credits are phased out). It's hard to predict how long it will take other manufacturers to hit their expiration point. I think EVs are really taking off, but the other manufacturers are a bit slow to ramp up. I see 2 or 3 Leafs in the parking lot every time I go to Home Depot. I see Leafs every day driving to and from work. I was in a lane in traffic with 3 Leafs on Thursday. Perhaps they will expire for Nissan in the next 2 years. And other manufacturers in the next 5+? Hard to predict.

And the technology is another uncertainty. I think that the average person doesn't need more than the 100 mile range that I get. But the availability of relatively inexpensive 150 or 200 mile range vehicles (that's the outer limit of what could be put into a $30k vehicle in the next 5 years) is limited by both the cost of the batteries (which is coming down about 8-9% per year) and the size and weight of the batteries (which are also improving over time). They are complicated engineering problems and will take time to improve more than incrementally. So perhaps the availability of a 150-mile range vehicle depresses the 5-year resale value of the 2014 version by 2/3 the cost to add the equivalent amount of batteries to the 2014 version to extend its range. I'm guessing 2/3 the cost since not everyone would need/want the extra range (I don't come close to needing it anywhere I go). That would probably be $2-4k (assuming technology has advanced enough to even allow the affordable 150-mile version).

That would make a 5 year-old Leaf (still under battery and EV powertrain warranty) with almost no maintenance expense and $10/month energy costs be worth about $7-9k. So perhaps a $4-6k depreciation hit (after credits), but with $6-8k in energy and maintenance savings (vs ICE with moderate mustachian mileage). But I also don't have any money of my own in the deal until after about 3-4 years of payments (due to the tax credits--which I can invest), so the opportunity cost of funds is low or even negative. So I still see myself coming out ahead on the deal after 5 years if I sold it then.

By comparison, if I'd purchased an average ICE at $20k (no tax credits), it would probably be worth about $7.5k (by the Edmunds stat). A much bigger depreciation hit of $12.5k plus the extra $6-8k in gas and maintenance vs electric (more if a heavy driver), and the significant opportunity cost of the funds. I think the Leaf is a huge win. Honestly, it's pretty close to making sense even without tax credits. Not quite, due to the limited range and uncertainties. But those factors will get better with time.

By comparison with leasing, if I could do a 5 year lease (to compare apples to apples) that cost probably $12k in payments over 5 years (a guess), I would be out $7k (after state tax credit) and have to give the car back vs being out $13.5k and getting to keep the $7-9k car. This is obviously a much closer call. I was thinking about whether I should trade in my ICE and get a 2nd Leaf and leasing that one (going to one car around the time I might quit working).

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2014, 01:14:33 PM »
I am using my Leaf as a commuter car.  Leased a 2015 at $0 down, $290/month for 24 months.  23 payments.  I was using an SUV for a 20 mile each way commuter(I say in shame), so the monthly payment is less than my fuel bill yet I have no oil changes, no maintenance, no depreciation, and we now have another family car as we have four kids coming into driving ages. 

Congrats on the savings! It's exciting to do something that's better for the environment, more fun, and saves you money. In Georgia, I'm told by other lessees that the $5k state tax credit can be claimed based on the lease payments as well, so even though you're paying ~$7k in payments over 2 years, the full $5k credit is available in year one.

So a major take away is to look at your AMT calculations (federal form 6251 and state form) to determine if you have any room for the credit.  If not the Lease may be a good deal.  $190/month if you want a 36 monthly lease.  Zero down, 35 months.  You can buy the car at the residual which was about $15k for the 24 month lease or $13k for the 36 month lease.     

If you're planning to buy, buying up front should be a much better deal for anyone who can take advantage of the tax credits, especially if your state has one. Nissan has $3500 cash back and 0% interest on top of that too for purchasers. My net cost of $13.5k is better/close to your residual cost, and I didn't have to make ~$7k in payments on top of that.

DarinC

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2014, 02:06:09 PM »
That's a crazy good price. Once my earnings increase (or my wife and I file jointly), I was thinking about getiing an i-MiEV, but $13500+ttl for a Leaf is pretty tempting too. That's only ~$1000 more than an i. Still, if I can talk the Mitsubishi dealer down given how low the Leaf is, maybe I can grab one for ~$12000+ttl.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2014, 10:34:23 AM »
That's a crazy good price. Once my earnings increase (or my wife and I file jointly), I was thinking about getiing an i-MiEV, but $13500+ttl for a Leaf is pretty tempting too. That's only ~$1000 more than an i. Still, if I can talk the Mitsubishi dealer down given how low the Leaf is, maybe I can grab one for ~$12000+ttl.

$13.5k includes the federal and Georgia tax credits along with $3.5k cash back from Nissan. I looked into the iMiev, but they didn't have any in Georgia that I could find. Same with the Spark EV or Fit EV.

hexdexorex

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2014, 09:47:39 AM »
Buy another and ship it to me in CA. Leafs out here are not discounted (at least right now)

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2014, 02:28:31 PM »
I remember about two years back I calculated the tax difference for buying a Chevy Volt. The tax system benefits the higher earner. On my income I would only reap about $1500-2000 but my Mom at a higher income would get the full $7500. I wonder how many people buy one without doing the tax math or find out later they don't get the full amount.

I did this in 2007 with the purchase of a Honda Civic Hybrid.  Single income, lots of kids (and attendant tax credits), no tax credit for me!

My, how things change in 7 years!

Gin1984

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2014, 03:36:26 PM »
For anyone who owns an electric car and likes to travel, you may also want to check universities.  Many, including my undergrad and grad, have free charging stations (and ironically free parking, unlike every other bloody spot). 

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2014, 08:04:02 AM »
For anyone who owns an electric car and likes to travel, you may also want to check universities.  Many, including my undergrad and grad, have free charging stations (and ironically free parking, unlike every other bloody spot).

I haven't tried this, but I'm told that Nissan dealers let Leaf owners charge there for free. I looked at a map of dealers and thought it might be possible to go on a long road trip just stopping at dealerships.

There are apps like PlugShare and ChargePoint you can download that point you to available charging stations or outlets (including 240V outlets that charge much faster). And the charging station map is actually built into the SL and SV versions of the Leaf (I bought the base model S so I don't have that). The apps tell you if there is any fee to use the station and whether it's currently occupied. I haven't actually tried to use the services anywhere on the road since I always charge at home. You can also find charging stations through websites like https://na.chargepoint.com/charge_point

It turns out that a lot of Walgreens have stations near my house. I saw a blog where people drove across country a couple years ago and even trickle charged overnight by running the cord through their hotel window. If you have a 240V charging station (like the one I bought), I'm told that RV parks tend to have the outlets you can plug into and charge pretty quickly.

kudy

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2014, 08:14:20 PM »
Dang, based on this post I researched possibilities for myself here in Colorado, but it's not as good.

First, the dealer is telling me to choose between 0% financing and the 3500 credit, I can't have both.

2nd, the list price is 32500 for the S trim package, guess they don't need to mark down in my market?

There is a $6000 state credit, but the deal is probably not low enough for me to go for it.

tomsang

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2014, 08:33:03 AM »
Dang, based on this post I researched possibilities for myself here in Colorado, but it's not as good.

First, the dealer is telling me to choose between 0% financing and the 3500 credit, I can't have both.

2nd, the list price is 32500 for the S trim package, guess they don't need to mark down in my market?

There is a $6000 state credit, but the deal is probably not low enough for me to go for it.

If you are looking to buy or lease a new car. The best way that I have found is to figure out exactly what model, options, colors, charging package, floor mats, etc. Do a test drive with a a dealer but flat out refuse to negotiate a price. Walk out. Even if you are curious. Why waste time stuck in their trap. Escape. The price that they give you will be thousands off so why bother.

Go home. Call up 10-15 or so dealers and ask for their fleet manager/internet sales manager's email addresses. Most likely you will be transferred to talk with them. Refuse to discuss what you want. Tell them that you will email them all the details later in the day so there is no misunderstanding.

A few days before the end of the month. Send out your email spelling out exactly what you want. From research include MSRP and invoice for the car and model that you are looking at. I recommend using a SPAM email for this. You should tell them that you plan on buying on the last day of the month, that you don't need a test drive, that you want financing or don't want financing, that you don't have a trade in, that you are buying from whoever is the cheapest.

If you are buying new. You are buying a commodity. They have nothing else to offer except the lowest price. If they call or email with good questions then answer them. If they want to negotiate, just politely tell them that you don't like to negotiate and that you are going to buy from the cheapest provider of your exact model. Some will refuse to play the game, but others will.

I went from the person that I test drove telling me that $32k was the internet price and an amazing price to finding the exact same vehicle for $28,500 - $11k in federal and Nissan rebates. Once you have what you feel is the best price. Schedule an appointment to pick up the car. That you only have 30 minutes.

All the paperwork should be ready and you should be able to drive out in less than an hour. I have helped friends purchase cars where they brought a cashier's check and were out in 15 minutes.

No stress, no hassle. From the emails from the dealers they are stressing to win the sale.


If you are going to lease specify 0 down, ask for the cost per mile over the 12,000, number of payments and ask about the residual values. Again ensuring that it is apples to apples.  If anyone comes up different ask them what happened. If you learn something, let everyone know what in your ask has changed.

I actually called the Nissan dealer that was 6 miles away and asked them if they could match or beat the lowest. They said they couldn't. I ended up leasing from a place that was 12 miles away.

If you have a trade in you can inquire about that. This way you are comparing two very specific transactions. You know what you are getting for each.

Good luck. I am confident that you will get the $3,500 plus more if you use email as a tool. Total time to buy a car was less than 3 hours including test drive, finding email addresses, filling out paperwork, etc. stress was close to zero.


forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2014, 09:52:04 AM »
I echo tomsang's advice. What I did was to just email exactly what I wanted and ask for their "out the door" price on it. Some dealers just put me on their mailing list. Some just kept calling. Some responded with "when can you come in?". I ignored those. The dealers that responded with a price, I followed up with. I made sure I knew exactly what was in the price. Every single dealer included the $3500 cash back from Nissan for financing in the price they quoted me. And some quoted me the VPP pricing, without asking whether I had VPP eligibility (I don't). Dealers just want to get you in the door and start negotiating with you so they can take advantage of you. Don't waste your time going to dealerships until you have the deal worked out already. Let them compete against each other. And the place I bought mine was maybe the 10th closest Nissan dealer, but they had the best price. Don't play their games.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2014, 10:09:32 AM »
Dang, based on this post I researched possibilities for myself here in Colorado, but it's not as good.

First, the dealer is telling me to choose between 0% financing and the 3500 credit, I can't have both.

2nd, the list price is 32500 for the S trim package, guess they don't need to mark down in my market?

There is a $6000 state credit, but the deal is probably not low enough for me to go for it.

That dealer is trying to screw you. That happened to me too. If you agreed to that deal, they would either pocket the $3500 themselves or pocket the interest you'd be paying on the loan. The dealer I went to played dumb and pretended they didn't know about the $3500 and 0% financing for 6 years offer. But I held firm and they relented. I had to ask about it repeatedly.

I forget exactly what MSRP was on mine, but that's just a made up number anyway. I paid a few hundred dollars below invoice, even including the dealer fee (i.e. "profit fee"). And on invoice, the dealer is still making money (they get about 3% of the invoice price from the manufacturer after making the sale, and sometimes get additional bonuses on top of that). So I think MSRP was something like $31k for mine and I paid something like $28k, and then subtracted the $3500 and then added tax and registration. And then I'll get the tax credits early next year. And I financed for 6 years at 0%.

The first tactic they used once I showed up was to say "oh, that was the VPP price" and I never said I was VPP or even mentioned the program--nor did they mention that it was VPP in the email. The second tactic was to try to steal my trade-in by offering even less than CarMax did (and CarMax offers $1k below wholesale value). So I just rejected the offer and sold it separately. The third tactic was to pretend that I couldn't get the 0% financing (they offered me 5% and I have 800+ credit--my credit union pre-approved me for 1.5%). In the end, I got a solid deal and they still made money off me.

Also, don't pay for any extras like nitrogen or splash guards or any of that stuff. It if's valuable to you, include it in your email upfront--i.e. "What's your best out-the-door price for  a 2015 S with charging package, floor mats, and cargo mat?" That way each dealer is competing based on what you want only. In my case my car came with splash guards and some door protection stuff, but I didn't pay a penny for it because they were competing based on my ask and not their silly "upgrades".

Nords

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2014, 10:58:17 AM »
These last four posts make me wonder why people prefer dealers to buying used on Craigslist.  Frankly the dealers' behavior seems far worse than the Craigslist flakes, and Craigslist offers a lot more "market ignorance" to exploit.

While I appreciate the math of discounts and tax credits, my main interest in an EV is being able to recharge it from a net-metered photovoltaic array.  In our case we'd be adding more (used) PV panels to our existing array, so the payback on panel costs would be less than a year of gasoline savings.  The payback on the car would take a little longer at $800-$1000/year of gas savings, but there doesn't seem to be much on a Leaf that would keep it from doing 20 years.

One of our neighbors is planning to sell her home next year as "PV array and Leaf included".  It'll be interesting to see whether it's just a negotiating gimmick or whether the market will recognize the value of either.  Otherwise we'd be happy to relieve her of the Leaf and the charging package.

Bob W

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2014, 09:11:40 AM »
Had to reread this post today ---  Really,  this is one of the best posts I've seen here.  Real and useful information from someone who did it!

Sadly,  I'm still too far from the city life to be able to use this strategy,  but in 2 years, when we move to the town of 100K citizens,  I will be very open to this type of strategy.

Excellent work my friend, and thank you so much for sharing!

kudy

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2014, 09:21:15 AM »
Thanks tomsang and forummm, great advice on how to respond!

enigmaT120

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2014, 12:58:36 PM »
I wonder if anybody yet is using a Leaf or other electric car as a battery storage for off the grid living. 

Nords

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2014, 01:55:24 PM »
I wonder if anybody yet is using a Leaf or other electric car as a battery storage for off the grid living.
The "problem" with an EV supplying the house would be recharging it.

It's fairly common with a hybrid like a Prius, though:
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs/post--use-your-prius-car-to-power-your-house-in-an-outage

DarinC

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2014, 08:43:14 PM »
I've always thought it would be neat if your work allowed you to set up a PV canopy to charge your car there. One of the big hangups to going off grid is charging at home since that would occur mostly at night.

Nords

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2014, 09:23:44 PM »
I've always thought it would be neat if your work allowed you to set up a PV canopy to charge your car there. One of the big hangups to going off grid is charging at home since that would occur mostly at night.
It's just a bigger battery bank, which admittedly makes an EV less cost-effective.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2014, 08:43:46 AM »
I wonder if anybody yet is using a Leaf or other electric car as a battery storage for off the grid living.

One of the positive externalities of the ever-increasing sales of EVs is that batteries are getting much better, lighter, smaller, and cheaper every year. That means the cost to live off the grid is going down too. In about 5-10 years, when used EV batteries start coming onto the market in large volumes (accidents, upgrades, deterioration, etc), they should provide a cheap battery storage solution. Nissan estimates that used Leaf battery packs will be worth about $1000, but they will still have 12-15kWh of useable storage capacity.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2014, 08:55:34 AM »
If you're eligible for Nissan's VPP program, the deal gets even better. You can purchase at $1000 off the invoice price. And get over $1000 off of a lease as well. VPP is available for employees of many companies, Nissan employees, military and veterans, and friends and family of people eligible for VPP. Learn more at http://www.insidenissan.com/monthly_plans.html

For those in Georgia, leasing is also an interesting option due to the state tax credit. And if you're eligible for Nissan's VPP program, the deal is insanely good. Here's a deal that people have been getting this month in Georgia. I think the deals will get a little better in the next few months--but it's hard to beat this.

VPP 24 month 2015 Nissan LEAF S models for: $209 OR $240 with upgraded charging package. GA tax is included in the payment. $80 down payment, 12,000 miles a year, $395 disposition fee.
With the tax credit, over 2 years it's something like:
Standard charging package--(24*209)+395+80=5411, with the tax credit: 5411-5000=411 total for 24 months (or $17/month net).
Upgraded charging package--(24*240)+395+80=6155, with the tax credit: 6155-5000=1155 total for 24 months (or $48/month net).

Non-VPP 24 month 2015 Nissan LEAF S models for: $249 OR $289 with upgraded charging package. GA tax is included in the payment. $80 down payment, 12,000 miles a year, $395 disposition fee.
With the tax credit over 2 years it's something like:
Standard charging package--(24*249)+395+80=6451, with the tax credit: 6451-5000=1451 total for 24 months (or $60/month net).
Upgraded charging package--(24*289)+395+80=7411, with the tax credit: 7411-5000=2411 total for 24 months (or $100/month net).

For the 36 month lease, the monthly payment would probably drop about $40-$50, but you can only get the tax credit one time, so the average total monthly cost of the lease would rise slightly (about $12/month added to the net totals above). I fully expect the state tax credit to be dramatically cut or eliminated by April (the legislature voted to axe it this year but adjourned before the house and senate versions could be reconciled), so this lease deal likely won't be available in 2 more years. The way the GA tax credit currently works is that you'd get the full $5k when you file your taxes for that year (assuming you have $5k in GA tax liability--if not the rest is rolled over to the next year).

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2014, 09:01:04 AM »
Non-VPP 24 month 2015 Nissan LEAF S models for: $249 OR $289 with upgraded charging package. GA tax is included in the payment. $80 down payment, 12,000 miles a year, $395 disposition fee.
With the tax credit over 2 years it's something like:
Standard charging package--(24*249)+395+80=6451, with the tax credit: 6451-5000=1451 total for 24 months (or $60/month net).
Upgraded charging package--(24*289)+395+80=7411, with the tax credit: 7411-5000=2411 total for 24 months (or $100/month net).

Since I don't have VPP eligibility, and I expect the GA tax credit to go away soon (so I can't just keep leasing a new car every 2 years), for me and my mustachian driving habits, I think purchasing is better than leasing.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2014, 07:46:03 PM »
Kuddos to the author -

I am a new mustashian. This post inspired me to me to trade in (i know) my gas-hog Mustang convertible for a Leaf straight up. I am done with paying for gas.

Thanks to this site I have cut all unnecessary things from my budget and I am maxing my 457 / Roth IRA. Saving over 50% of my income is my new priority.

 

DarinC

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #76 on: September 26, 2014, 10:43:10 PM »
I've always thought it would be neat if your work allowed you to set up a PV canopy to charge your car there. One of the big hangups to going off grid is charging at home since that would occur mostly at night.
It's just a bigger battery bank, which admittedly makes an EV less cost-effective.
Yeah, that's the crumby part. Electricity from PV panels is dirt cheap, probably something like a cent per mile, but batteries are still kind of expensive. If a Leaf battery lasts ~100k miles, then that works out to ~5c/mile, which is great since running costs are equivalent to my Honda Insight @ 65mpg in a much larger car. If I have to essentially pay for two packs over ~100k miles instead of one (~$.11/mile), then that cost advantage is pretty much wiped out.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #77 on: September 30, 2014, 05:27:23 PM »
I've always thought it would be neat if your work allowed you to set up a PV canopy to charge your car there. One of the big hangups to going off grid is charging at home since that would occur mostly at night.
It's just a bigger battery bank, which admittedly makes an EV less cost-effective.
Yeah, that's the crumby part. Electricity from PV panels is dirt cheap, probably something like a cent per mile, but batteries are still kind of expensive. If a Leaf battery lasts ~100k miles, then that works out to ~5c/mile, which is great since running costs are equivalent to my Honda Insight @ 65mpg in a much larger car. If I have to essentially pay for two packs over ~100k miles instead of one (~$.11/mile), then that cost advantage is pretty much wiped out.

Nissan provides an 8 year/100k mi warranty on the battery for workmanship and materials. And a 5 year/60k mi warranty on capacity (it will retain at least 67% or they swap it out). So if you wanted to drive it for 100k miles, you probably don't need a replacement. If you wanted to drive for 200k miles, then you might want to replace it once. But by then, batteries should be really cheap and have much larger capacity and take up less space and be lighter. In the last 5 years or so batteries for EVs have dropped in cost about 50% and in weight by about 30%. I think replacing a Leaf battery will cost around $2-3k when I'm ready for a replacement. But that replacement could also provide much greater range. It'll be interesting to see.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #78 on: September 30, 2014, 05:37:51 PM »
Big update: I bought a 2nd Leaf! And I sold the Corolla, so now we're EV transportation only. I got a 2015 Leaf S w/charging package (and floor mats and splash guards). I paid below invoice less holdback (i.e. slightly less than the dealer's cost--they'll make money through bonuses for volume and other kickbacks). Then Nissan kicked in $3500 and 0% for 3 years. After tax credits my net cost will be $13.2k.

My spreadsheets calculate that it's $1k/yr (averaged over a 5 year period) less expensive to have the Leaf than the Corolla, including depreciation, insurance, energy, maintenance, repairs, taxes, opportunity cost of funds, emissions testing, and renting an ICE for road trips (which actually may not be necessary for long given the recent charging infrastructure improvements announced).

After driving it around for a day, I notice that Nissan improved the energy efficiency a bit, so I might be able to get 120 miles of range on it. I'll have to test soon.

CarMax said my 2014 Leaf is still worth $5500 more than I paid for it.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2014, 11:36:19 AM »
Hey Forumm,

Thanks for the update and the breakdown. Can you tell us more about your process in talking them down to below dealer cost? Did you walk in to a dealership and talk to them, just email a lot of dealerships in your area, or go another route?

I've been keeping my eye on this thread for a while, and would appreciate more info on your process to get as low a price as possible. I'm in Texas so unfortunately I only get $2500 at a state level, but the math still may work in my favor.

jedichikin

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2014, 02:36:58 PM »
Could I theoretically drive to GA, and take advantage of the $5k, GA incentives (I live in Tennessee) where the only incentive is the HOV Lane access. Thanks.

cdub

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2014, 02:39:46 PM »
I'm pretty sure you need to be a resident.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #82 on: October 03, 2014, 07:09:33 AM »
Hey Forumm,

Thanks for the update and the breakdown. Can you tell us more about your process in talking them down to below dealer cost? Did you walk in to a dealership and talk to them, just email a lot of dealerships in your area, or go another route?

I've been keeping my eye on this thread for a while, and would appreciate more info on your process to get as low a price as possible. I'm in Texas so unfortunately I only get $2500 at a state level, but the math still may work in my favor.

I just let the dealers bid against each other. I waited until the end of the month (when dealers and salesmen are trying to hit their numbers from the manufacturer to get the large bonuses--so they're willing to sell a car for their cost because they'll get a big bonus). So if some dealers already hit their numbers they may offer a higher price. Those that are more desperate will offer better prices. I sent 10 local dealers this email (through the contact form on their websites):

Quote
Hi,

I already own a 2014 Leaf and am ready to buy a 2015 today. If you treat me right, give me a great deal, and make this easy I'll give all 10's on the survey--and I don't need to be walked through the features after I buy (saves you time).

What's your best out-the-door price (PURCHASE not lease) for a 2015 Leaf S with charging package? Please include the $3500 NMAC rebate for financing in your offer. Please email your quote and do not call me.

I am getting quotes from other dealers, so I recommend providing your best price up front. And I will not "Come on in" until we've already finalized the deal, so please don't waste time suggesting that.

Thanks,

I had offers come in over the course of about 4 hours. I had 3 dealers offer the same price. 3 others offer prices 200-500 higher. And a few that were up to a couple grand higher. Another friend went to one of those first 3 dealers and was offered that same price I was offered (perhaps because I told her about it and she asked for it--I didn't ask for details on her process). I mentioned the survey in my email because salesmen get paid in part on the results of their customer surveys. So it's juicing the deal for them. On a sale like mine the salesman will get $150 (it's a "mini" and no commission) plus $200-$500 because it's a Leaf (they push a button and a machine tells them what their Leaf bonus is) plus bonuses for hitting his numbers. He had 1.5 days left in the month and was 2 cars away from a $4k bonus.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #83 on: October 03, 2014, 07:14:57 AM »
Big update: I bought a 2nd Leaf!

Here are more details:
2015 Leaf S w/upgraded charging package, floor/cargo mats, splashguards
Invoice (incl marketing): 30465
Sale price: 28490
Dealer fee: 734
NMAC rebate: -3500
Total taxable: 25724
Financed this plus state tax (GA charges up front 6.75% and then doesn't charge annual tax for registration--just $20) at 0% for 36 mos. I'll get the $12,500 in tax credits when I file in February.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #84 on: October 03, 2014, 07:19:21 AM »
My friend has a very non-Mustachian commute (90 miles RT) and is going to save the entire net price of the car in less than 5 years just from not buying gas anymore (~$3k/yr in savings for electric vs gas). He can charge at work if he needs to (90 miles RT is too far for a Leaf if you use climate control and drive on the freeway and in year 2 or later when the battery capacity drops a bit).

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #85 on: October 03, 2014, 07:24:11 AM »
Could I theoretically drive to GA, and take advantage of the $5k, GA incentives (I live in Tennessee) where the only incentive is the HOV Lane access. Thanks.
The GA tax credit is based on your GA taxable income. So you'd have to make enough money (over 5 years if needed) in GA to have to pay GA $5k in income taxes for you to get the full credit. I assume this is not the case for you. You may need to be a resident as well, but I don't know for sure. Here's a summary http://www.nissanusa.com/ev/media/pdf/incentives/nissan-leaf-incentive-24.pdf

Kyrene

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #86 on: January 09, 2015, 03:17:13 PM »
I've been keeping my eye on the Nissan Leaf for the last few months since OP started this thread. For my situation it probably makes sense to buy a used 2011/2012 Leaf since i'm in Texas and don't really make enough for the tax incentives to be worth it. (But have about 15k to buy my next car in cash.)

In my area there aren't really any privately owned Leaf vehicles available, but there are a lot coming off leases at places like Carmax. Looks like for somewhere in the 12-15k range there are many Leaf cars to choose from with between 10-50k miles.

My question is this: for those of you who have had an earlier model Leaf, how has the purchase worked out for you? Is the battery holding up well and giving you decent range? I'm trying to decide between an all electric like the Leaf, or getting a Prius.

ColorOfCash

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2015, 07:59:36 AM »
My question is this: for those of you who have had an earlier model Leaf, how has the purchase worked out for you? Is the battery holding up well and giving you decent range? I'm trying to decide between an all electric like the Leaf, or getting a Prius.

Based upon the leaf forums, I would recommend the Prius for you. The older models in southern states have battery degradation issues. If you do go with the Leaf, buy a gid meter beforehand to test the battery, the dashboard doesn't give enough detail on how degraded the battery is and you can't tell if it was kept in an AC garage or in a hot parking lot boiling the battery.

I'm 1 year into my lease, only reasons I went with the lease is the degradation concern and 200 mile models from multiple manufacturers around 2017.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2015, 09:09:17 PM »
I've been keeping my eye on the Nissan Leaf for the last few months since OP started this thread. For my situation it probably makes sense to buy a used 2011/2012 Leaf since i'm in Texas and don't really make enough for the tax incentives to be worth it. (But have about 15k to buy my next car in cash.)

It looks like Texas offers a $2500 rebate on plug-in electric vehicles. Although I would speculate that this rebate on new vehicles would also lower the cost of used vehicles in the area.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #89 on: March 04, 2015, 08:59:46 AM »
How have you found insurance to stack up?

I bought a 3 year old Leaf SL for $13K last weekend.  I was unpleasantly surprised by the cost of insurance - $1400/year, vs. $950/year for our 2012 Honda CR-V.  At 10,000 miles/year the insurance difference almost eats all of the fuel savings.  I'm still excited to drive an electric car, just sort of miffed at the insurance industry.

As for the used vs. new decision: I am only planning to keep the car for 3 years, until the new cool things come to market.  I only replaced my old car (2005 Scion xA) because she was in the shop too often.  I test drove a 2015 Leaf S and enjoyed it, but didn't think I could stomach the 3 year depreciation ($6-8K).  I looked into a lease, but it was $295/month ($10,600 over 3 years) and a residual of $12,800.  Again, I couldn't stomach spending $10K for 3 years in a car.  I found the car I ended up buying at a Nissan dealership a certified pre-owned.  It still reads 12 bars on the battery (though I don't think that 12th bar has much in it) and has new tires (the only thing our friend's Leaf has needed replaced in the 4 years he has owned it).  If I keep the car 3 years I think depreciation will be under $6K, but only time will tell. 

On the upside, maintenance should be WAY cheaper: rotate tires every fall, rotate tires and replace cabin air filter every spring(plus dealer battery check/general car inspection), replace tires every 3 years/36,000 miles.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #90 on: March 05, 2015, 07:47:39 AM »
How have you found insurance to stack up?

I bought a 3 year old Leaf SL for $13K last weekend.  I was unpleasantly surprised by the cost of insurance - $1400/year, vs. $950/year for our 2012 Honda CR-V.  At 10,000 miles/year the insurance difference almost eats all of the fuel savings.  I'm still excited to drive an electric car, just sort of miffed at the insurance industry.

As for the used vs. new decision: I am only planning to keep the car for 3 years, until the new cool things come to market.  I only replaced my old car (2005 Scion xA) because she was in the shop too often.  I test drove a 2015 Leaf S and enjoyed it, but didn't think I could stomach the 3 year depreciation ($6-8K).  I looked into a lease, but it was $295/month ($10,600 over 3 years) and a residual of $12,800.  Again, I couldn't stomach spending $10K for 3 years in a car.  I found the car I ended up buying at a Nissan dealership a certified pre-owned.  It still reads 12 bars on the battery (though I don't think that 12th bar has much in it) and has new tires (the only thing our friend's Leaf has needed replaced in the 4 years he has owned it).  If I keep the car 3 years I think depreciation will be under $6K, but only time will tell. 

On the upside, maintenance should be WAY cheaper: rotate tires every fall, rotate tires and replace cabin air filter every spring(plus dealer battery check/general car inspection), replace tires every 3 years/36,000 miles.

My insurance for a brand new Leaf was about 25% higher than for a 2010 Corolla. The Leaf had a resale value of over twice the Corolla, so that makes sense (and may even be cheaper than expected).

Yes, a brand new Leaf has quick depreciation--even a bit faster than the quick depreciation of any new car. But that depreciation is more than made up for by the tax credits. I literally could sell my car today for thousands more than I paid for it because of negotiating a good deal, getting the rebate from Nissan, and the tax credits. Leasing a new car is always expensive. The lease deal you were offered is expensive compared to many I've seen (like $100/mo more).

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #91 on: March 05, 2015, 04:15:35 PM »
Yeah, the depreciation is only high because of the tax credit/various state rebates.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #92 on: March 07, 2015, 08:40:03 PM »
Hey Forumm,

Thanks for the update and the breakdown. Can you tell us more about your process in talking them down to below dealer cost? Did you walk in to a dealership and talk to them, just email a lot of dealerships in your area, or go another route?

I've been keeping my eye on this thread for a while, and would appreciate more info on your process to get as low a price as possible. I'm in Texas so unfortunately I only get $2500 at a state level, but the math still may work in my favor.

I just let the dealers bid against each other. I waited until the end of the month (when dealers and salesmen are trying to hit their numbers from the manufacturer to get the large bonuses--so they're willing to sell a car for their cost because they'll get a big bonus). So if some dealers already hit their numbers they may offer a higher price. Those that are more desperate will offer better prices. I sent 10 local dealers this email (through the contact form on their websites):

Quote
Hi,

I already own a 2014 Leaf and am ready to buy a 2015 today. If you treat me right, give me a great deal, and make this easy I'll give all 10's on the survey--and I don't need to be walked through the features after I buy (saves you time).

What's your best out-the-door price (PURCHASE not lease) for a 2015 Leaf S with charging package? Please include the $3500 NMAC rebate for financing in your offer. Please email your quote and do not call me.

I am getting quotes from other dealers, so I recommend providing your best price up front. And I will not "Come on in" until we've already finalized the deal, so please don't waste time suggesting that.

Thanks,

I had offers come in over the course of about 4 hours. I had 3 dealers offer the same price. 3 others offer prices 200-500 higher. And a few that were up to a couple grand higher. Another friend went to one of those first 3 dealers and was offered that same price I was offered (perhaps because I told her about it and she asked for it--I didn't ask for details on her process). I mentioned the survey in my email because salesmen get paid in part on the results of their customer surveys. So it's juicing the deal for them. On a sale like mine the salesman will get $150 (it's a "mini" and no commission) plus $200-$500 because it's a Leaf (they push a button and a machine tells them what their Leaf bonus is) plus bonuses for hitting his numbers. He had 1.5 days left in the month and was 2 cars away from a $4k bonus.

Awesome explanation.  Thanks!

couponvan

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #93 on: April 20, 2015, 09:17:03 AM »
I've been thinking about this ever since the thread came out last year. My DH just drove one of these last week and really liked it.  A friend at his work purchased one. 

He currently drives an Audi, and his commute is a non-mustachian 50 miles (He does WFH one day a week). Compared to the 20 MPG and premium gas required, the Leaf at 125 MPG effective rate sounds pretty darn attractive.

I have 2 questions:

1) Has anyone used a ChargePoint station?  Since his commute is 100 miles RT, I think he'd need to charge for 2 hours at a ChargePoint each day if he were to take this car to work.  (From looking at the ChargePoint map there is a ChargePoint about 1 block from his office at an apartment complex. We'd have to see if he could charge there or if it is for residents only.)

2) If you are in the AMT for tax purposes, will this affect your ability to use the federal credits?  From what I see, it looks like the credits are included after the AMT is calculated, so I think we should still be able to benefit from this.

The one big drawback I see is that the 2015 Leaf cannot reach our FIRE/2nd house without charging on the way, and there is only one real stopping point.  If the charger at that point is busy, we'd be in a real bind. It's at the maximum range 90 miles away (and NOTHING is around close by). I think we'd need to stop for 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and grocery shop to make it there.  It would be really awful to run out of power in the middle of nowhere.

I have heard the 2016 Leaf "might" have a battery that would go 125 miles.  This is the range I think we need, so I am waiting to see if that is true I think before I buy.  If 125 is the range, I think it's a good opportunity. 

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #94 on: April 20, 2015, 05:42:55 PM »
I've been thinking about this ever since the thread came out last year. My DH just drove one of these last week and really liked it.  A friend at his work purchased one. 

He currently drives an Audi, and his commute is a non-mustachian 50 miles (He does WFH one day a week). Compared to the 20 MPG and premium gas required, the Leaf at 125 MPG effective rate sounds pretty darn attractive.

I have 2 questions:

1) Has anyone used a ChargePoint station?  Since his commute is 100 miles RT, I think he'd need to charge for 2 hours at a ChargePoint each day if he were to take this car to work.  (From looking at the ChargePoint map there is a ChargePoint about 1 block from his office at an apartment complex. We'd have to see if he could charge there or if it is for residents only.)

2) If you are in the AMT for tax purposes, will this affect your ability to use the federal credits?  From what I see, it looks like the credits are included after the AMT is calculated, so I think we should still be able to benefit from this.

The one big drawback I see is that the 2015 Leaf cannot reach our FIRE/2nd house without charging on the way, and there is only one real stopping point.  If the charger at that point is busy, we'd be in a real bind. It's at the maximum range 90 miles away (and NOTHING is around close by). I think we'd need to stop for 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and grocery shop to make it there.  It would be really awful to run out of power in the middle of nowhere.

I have heard the 2016 Leaf "might" have a battery that would go 125 miles.  This is the range I think we need, so I am waiting to see if that is true I think before I buy.  If 125 is the range, I think it's a good opportunity.

I have never used a public charging station. I have friends who are able to charge at work either with their EVSE that comes with the car (plugs into a standard household outlet) or with a 240V (like for a clothes dryer or electric range outlet) charging  station that you can purchase on your own ($300-600 for a quality one). We bought one of the 240V charging stations for our garage and I installed a 240V outlet myself in there. It's super convenient. A friend's employer added a 240V outlet at his work so he could charge there for his 90 mile RT commute. You can see if any of those options are available.

Yes, the credits are not subject to the AMT. They are deducted to whatever your total tax burden is. I would have been subject to the AMT with my $15000 in credits in one year, but I ended up getting the full amount in credits.

I would not expect to be able to go 90 miles for sure one way without charging. If you drive inefficiently, or at freeway speeds, or run climate control, or it gets really cold out, your range declines somewhat. And the battery capacity declines somewhat over the years as it ages. If you need to go that far without charging, I wouldn't do it.

The 2016 Leaf should have about the same range as a 2015. I think it's the 2017 model (which may be available late 2016 or early 2017) that will have a much larger range.

couponvan

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #95 on: April 20, 2015, 07:18:13 PM »
Thanks forummm - more food for thought! 

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #96 on: April 20, 2015, 09:38:33 PM »
Interesting I'll have to keep an eye on this and see what Wa State offers

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #97 on: April 21, 2015, 06:46:14 AM »
Thanks forummm - more food for thought!

Many households with 2 vehicles use the Leaf for most of the in-town driving and the ICE for trips. Since we have 2 Leafs, we plan to rent a car if we go on a long trip (although it's been 8 months and we haven't had to do that yet). I don't know whether you plan to have 2 vehicles or not. And if you move to your FIRE house, you can tow the car behind your moving truck.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #98 on: April 21, 2015, 06:33:02 PM »
LOL we have 3 cars.  Realistically I should get rid of my clown SUV '12 Honda Pilot for the Leaf (pre MMM and paid off - used for towing).  We have an '05 minivan that "can" tow our boat for the short distance to the docking area.  This 3rd car is for visiting relatives (used about 4 months of the year) and keeping mileage off the Pilot.  They were only offering $4K for trade in at the dealer, and DH thought we should keep it.

I can borrow DH's "nice" car for client lunches if needed, and if I did have to work at greater than range I could use the old car.  DS will be getting his permit this Summer - better to keep our '05 minivan with dents for him to learn on.  We have a cross-country road trip this Summer to California.  Once we get back is when I am thinking about doing the switch. By then there should be good incentives on the '15.

That 125 MPG is what I keep drooling over....And the "paying me to drive it" part....

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2015, 07:59:40 AM »
LOL we have 3 cars.  Realistically I should get rid of my clown SUV '12 Honda Pilot for the Leaf (pre MMM and paid off - used for towing).  We have an '05 minivan that "can" tow our boat for the short distance to the docking area.  This 3rd car is for visiting relatives (used about 4 months of the year) and keeping mileage off the Pilot.  They were only offering $4K for trade in at the dealer, and DH thought we should keep it.

I can borrow DH's "nice" car for client lunches if needed, and if I did have to work at greater than range I could use the old car.  DS will be getting his permit this Summer - better to keep our '05 minivan with dents for him to learn on.  We have a cross-country road trip this Summer to California.  Once we get back is when I am thinking about doing the switch. By then there should be good incentives on the '15.

That 125 MPG is what I keep drooling over....And the "paying me to drive it" part....

You can often get a better price selling your used car yourself, or even taking it to some place like CarMax than going through a dealer.

Current '15 Leaf incentives are $3500 cash back and 0% financing for 6 years. I don't think they will get any better than that this year.

For someone with such a long commute, the car would pay for itself. I don't know what incentive you have in your state, but with the $5k tax credit in GA (for the next couple months anyway), I had a friend buy one with a net cost of $13k after tax credits. In gas savings alone for his also ridiculous 90 mile commute, he will save $13k in 4 years. So it is paying him to drive it.