Author Topic: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it  (Read 116148 times)

Jeremy E.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #150 on: July 20, 2015, 08:53:34 PM »
I've never lived anywhere where I could charge an electric vehicle at home, so for me this is a purely academic exercise for me, but I was trying to figure out the cost per mile for a Leaf.  Sources on the internet tell me it takes about 30 kWh per 100 miles.  I pay about 25 cents per mile for electricity (mostly thanks to poor planning by politicians), so that works out to $7.50 per 100 miles or 7.5 cents per mile.

In comparison, a gallon of gas is about $2.75 here.  For a vehicle that gets 30 mpg, that's about 9.2 cents per mile.

Do those numbers sound right?

Do you mean 25 cents per kWh of electricity? That's incredibly high. You should get solar panels (if possible). You'll save a bundle. Your utility may also have a time of use rate plan that would cost much less at night, so the rate could drop. My peak rate is about 30 cents (including all fees/taxes) but 5 cents at night and 10 cents during non-peak day times. For my driving habits, it costs about 1.2 cents per mile to charge at night. So your math is about right.

Whoops!  Yes, of course I mean 25 cents per kWh.  And yes, I know it's high, thanks to the failure of politicians to build enough capacity (see https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/09/25/national-grid-projects-percent-increase-for-winter-electricity-rates/MBl81NGxTljzr56PZCD7QK/story.html# for some information).  That's one reason solar panels are so popular here, but it's not an option for me.

It's just interesting that without solar, the cost of fuel isn't really significantly different between gas and electric here.  That's surprising to me.
I would agree with forumm that Solar would be a great option if it was available, 25 cents/kwh is ridiculous. I'm pretty lucky in that I only pay 7 cents/kwh. But there are more benefits to electric cars other than saving money on gas. Electric cars are cheaper to maintain, and there is a lot less that can go wrong, really the only thing that goes out on them are the batteries, but you might be able to replace them under warranty(which varies by electric car) if they degrade under the limit by a certain time.

beltim

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #151 on: July 20, 2015, 08:58:40 PM »
I've never lived anywhere where I could charge an electric vehicle at home, so for me this is a purely academic exercise for me, but I was trying to figure out the cost per mile for a Leaf.  Sources on the internet tell me it takes about 30 kWh per 100 miles.  I pay about 25 cents per mile for electricity (mostly thanks to poor planning by politicians), so that works out to $7.50 per 100 miles or 7.5 cents per mile.

In comparison, a gallon of gas is about $2.75 here.  For a vehicle that gets 30 mpg, that's about 9.2 cents per mile.

Do those numbers sound right?

Do you mean 25 cents per kWh of electricity? That's incredibly high. You should get solar panels (if possible). You'll save a bundle. Your utility may also have a time of use rate plan that would cost much less at night, so the rate could drop. My peak rate is about 30 cents (including all fees/taxes) but 5 cents at night and 10 cents during non-peak day times. For my driving habits, it costs about 1.2 cents per mile to charge at night. So your math is about right.

Whoops!  Yes, of course I mean 25 cents per kWh.  And yes, I know it's high, thanks to the failure of politicians to build enough capacity (see https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/09/25/national-grid-projects-percent-increase-for-winter-electricity-rates/MBl81NGxTljzr56PZCD7QK/story.html# for some information).  That's one reason solar panels are so popular here, but it's not an option for me.

It's just interesting that without solar, the cost of fuel isn't really significantly different between gas and electric here.  That's surprising to me.
I would agree with forumm that Solar would be a great option if it was available, 25 cents/kwh is ridiculous. I'm pretty lucky in that I only pay 7 cents/kwh. But there are more benefits to electric cars other than saving money on gas. Electric cars are cheaper to maintain, and there is a lot less that can go wrong, really the only thing that goes out on them are the batteries, but you might be able to replace them under warranty(which varies by electric car) if they degrade under the limit by a certain time.

Yes, yes, I know there are other benefits.  But there's no question that for me it would be more expensive, if I even had any place to charge it!

Electric cars are great for the people they work for.  But they are far from a universal solution.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #152 on: July 21, 2015, 07:01:09 AM »
Here in Calif gas is between $4 - $5/gal now and electricity is pretty cheap by comparison - maybe 20 cents/kWh at peak times and around 10 cents at off-peak times  - so an electric car here probably makes more sense then in some other places even without solar.

Forummm, thanks for the info about the QC port. I don't know if I'd be able to find a used Leaf with one is there is a very limited selection of them from the dealers I'd be allowed to use (have to use those dealers and can't buy from anyone else to get the incentives) but I'll keep my eye out for one with it. Most that are available are 2001 - 2013 and I'm looking at the 2013 but could go newer if available. I'm not sure but I think the extra $2K they give you for the EVSE is to both buy the plug and hire an electrician to do the work.

So the $2k isn't available to be part of the car? Oh well.

And given your desired driving, not having the QC port sounds fine. You'd be renting (or having a 2nd car) for longer trips.

An idea--what if you found a friend that had an ICE and you just borrowed it for trips when they didn't need it? That would keep your expenses low (you can still pay them for your usage) and keep another ICE off the roads. Or you could travel together. It seems like there are a lot of options for that kind of thing. Even taking the Greyhound.

RelaxedGal

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #153 on: July 21, 2015, 11:55:48 AM »
Forummm, thanks for the info about the QC port. I don't know if I'd be able to find a used Leaf with one is there is a very limited selection of them from the dealers I'd be allowed to use (have to use those dealers and can't buy from anyone else to get the incentives) but I'll keep my eye out for one with it. Most that are available are 2001 - 2013 and I'm looking at the 2013 but could go newer if available. I'm not sure but I think the extra $2K they give you for the EVSE is to both buy the plug and hire an electrician to do the work.

My 2 cents on the EVSE: Since the credit fully pays for it, get one.  If you were fronting the money, I don't think it would be worth it.  Here in Massachusetts a third of all electric/plug in hybrid drivers plan to install an EVSE when buying a new car.  I bought mine at the end of February, when daytime temps were only in the teens and I needed plenty of heat.  The pre-heat is pretty anemic on 110V, but SO LOVELY on 240V!  I have a friend-of-a-friend who is leasing his Leaf, and chose not to install the EVSE, just uses the provided cable year-round.  Getting an EVSE also means you can keep the provided cord in your trunk as a spare.  It does cut the charging time in half, which for me is from 8 hours to 4 and immaterial overnight.  If you get the higher end package on the Leaf with the 6.6 kWh charging then it drops to 2, and my husband's boss has a leaf and likes that for taking the kids to soccer/whatnot in the morning, come home for lunch and charge, out in the afternoon for swim lessons, or whatever.

I have a 2012 leaf, therefore the 3.3 kWh on-board charger, and we got the cheapest EVSE you can get, Clipper Creek LCS-20, 15 amp EV Charging Station, 22 ft cable.  Installation by an electrician was another $500ish, the total was under $1,000 after permits.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #154 on: July 21, 2015, 12:49:43 PM »
Getting an EVSE also means you can keep the provided cord in your trunk as a spare.  It does cut the charging time in half, which for me is from 8 hours to 4 and immaterial overnight.  If you get the higher end package on the Leaf with the 6.6 kWh charging then it drops to 2, and my husband's boss has a leaf and likes that for taking the kids to soccer/whatnot in the morning, come home for lunch and charge, out in the afternoon for swim lessons, or whatever.

I have a 2012 leaf, therefore the 3.3 kWh on-board charger, and we got the cheapest EVSE you can get, Clipper Creek LCS-20, 15 amp EV Charging Station, 22 ft cable.  Installation by an electrician was another $500ish, the total was under $1,000 after permits.

Just for clarity, it takes about 4.5 hours to charge from 0% to 100% with a 6.6kW EVSE and 6.6kW upgraded Leaf. In practice, you don't run it down to 0%, so the time to fill it back up isn't as long as 4.5 hours. It adds about 30 miles of range for every 60 minutes of charging. But the last 10% of the battery goes much more slowly. The 3.6kW charging takes about 8 hours 0% to 100% (15 miles for every 60 minutes of charging). The standard household outlet charging takes about 21 hours 0% to 100% (5 miles for every 60 minutes of charging).

RelaxedGal

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #155 on: July 21, 2015, 01:17:54 PM »
Whoops, thank you forummm for the clarification!  My numbers were for my usual 36 mile commute, and charging to 80%.

The cheapo EVSE at 3.6 kWh would be the limiting factor to rate of charge if you get the nicer 6.6 kWh onboard charger.

At $2,000 they're willing to pay for the installation of a pretty nice one.

Matt in Akron

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #156 on: July 21, 2015, 01:34:06 PM »
Here is the quick math on my 2013 Nissan Leaf, about 9 weeks / 3,790 mi into ownership...(please pardon my very non-mustachian 66mi r/t commute)

Old Vehicle = 2002 BMW 525i Wagon | 24.5mpg (SOLD privately for $4,500 this month, purchased in 01/2011 for $4,695)

Current Vehicle = 2013 Nissan Leaf SV | 4.83mi/kWh of measured consumption over all 3,790mi (Purchased certified-pre owned for $13,700 @ 0.0% APR)

Total Miles Traveled = 3,790.9mi (according to CarWings, the telematics system for the Leaf)

BMW Cost = 3,790.9mi / 24.5mpg = 154.7 gallons of fuel x $3/gal = $464.20 for fuel only ($0.12/mi)

Nissan Leaf Cost = 3,790.9mi / 4.83mi/kWh = 784.6 kWh electricity x $0.15/kWh = $117.69 ($0.03/mi)

So, over the course of the last 9 weeks, my savings rate is about $154/mo with the Leaf.  This assumes that all charging is done at my home at $0.15/kWh - in reality probably 15-20% of my charging is done at free public stations.  This also doesn't consider maintenance and upkeep, which was significant on the BMW even though I did most of my own work.  The Leaf is effectively maintenance free (tire rotations, annual cabin air filter, bi-annual brake fluid changes - all are DIY'able) and has a warranty for the next 7yr/100k.

After 4k miles, I love the Leaf.  It's enjoyable to drive, well equipped, and incredibly economical.  I'm excited for quick-charge infrastructure to expand into my area (NE Ohio) so we can start making some road trips in this thing!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 07:24:29 AM by Matt in Akron »

Jeremy E.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #157 on: July 21, 2015, 02:52:19 PM »
It's not recommended to charge Lithium batteries to 100%, 100% is probably a certain voltage that the chargers say is considered "100%" at which point it probably will no longer let you charge them. Keeping Lithium batteries in a range from 40% full to 80% full will significantly increase the life of the battery.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #158 on: July 21, 2015, 03:08:43 PM »
Glad you're having such a good experience, Matt in Akron! I can report similar findings. I'll hopefully never buy another ICE. Electric cars are the future.

It's not recommended to charge Lithium batteries to 100%, 100% is probably a certain voltage that the chargers say is considered "100%" at which point it probably will no longer let you charge them. Keeping Lithium batteries in a range from 40% full to 80% full will significantly increase the life of the battery.

Nissan doesn't actually let you get to 100% (or 0%) of the real battery. It looks like 100% to you, but they hide some at the top and bottom of it from you just for these reasons. That said, I still personally only charge it to 100% overnight right before I use it. And then I don't charge it again until it's somewhat close to the end of the available range. My work round trip is 16 miles, so I charge it if there are less than 20ish left. Since we have 2 Leafs, we also trade off charging overnight for the cheap energy. So sometimes I'll charge it earlier if DW would need it the other night.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #159 on: July 21, 2015, 03:22:49 PM »
If you don't care a lot about morals/ethics, and your battery is close to warranty, someone might push the limits(while not voiding the warranty), to try and bring the battery within warranty range.

uspsfanalan

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #160 on: July 21, 2015, 03:38:18 PM »
I too made a switch to the LEAF.

Prior car - 2005 Nissan 350Z convertible, 58,000 miles. 23.1 MPG average on premium gas. Trade value was 10,000. Assuming gas is 3.00 a gallon, it was about .13 per mile.

2013 LEAF SV, 23,000 miles. Cost 12,500 plus taxes and etc etc. Total is 13,500. The real benefit is that I have free charging at work on a 220 station and live close enough to work that I only have to charge it at home every other week.

At present gas prices my break even point is around 25,000 miles. If gas goes up to $4.00 it would be around 20k.

Ultimately, the switch wasn't fully a financial choice. I didn't really care for the Z, I thought we would take it for long road trips which didn't really happen. When we did go out of town, we tend to bring our dog, so didn't take the Z anyway. Plus I couldn't bring a bike anywhere and the top started leaking when it rained. It was time for the car to go, I'm sure someone will enjoy the car a lot more than I was.

tonysemail

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #161 on: July 21, 2015, 04:02:45 PM »
thanks for the great info.
i'm shopping for an used leaf now, so following this thread with interest

Matt in Akron

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #162 on: July 22, 2015, 07:34:21 AM »
Having just researched/purchased one -- my absolute "must haves" are below as a reference for you:

  • Must be 2013+.  There were some nice enhancements to the vehicle to improve real-world range (high efficiency heat pump, lighter weight, etc), and the batteries seem to be holding up better than the 2011/12s
  • Must be "SL" trim, or "SV" with the optional Quick Charge Port / LED headlights.  With EV infrastructure continuing to grow, having the quick charge port is a must have - it's optional on 2013+ SV and standard on all SL.  The SL/SV trims also get you the higher capacity 6.6kW on-board charger - which means your charging times on "Level 2" public charging stations are cut in half vs. the 3.3kW charger on 2011/12 models and 2013+ "S" trim level
  • Must be Nissan Certified Pre-Owned (CPO).  Two reasons - 1) this makes the vehicle eligible for the "CPO wrap" warranty plan, which is about $1,600 on the Leaf.  This gets you a 7yr/100k mi bumper-to-bumper warranty on the entire car, which can be financed.  2) CPO cars are eligible for NMAC financing promotions, which are usually 0.9% for up to 60mo, and sometimes as low as 0.0% APR for 60mo.

Once you're able to narrow your search to cars that meet those criteria, just look for the one that has the best combination of mileage/price.  Good luck and happy shopping!

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #163 on: July 22, 2015, 07:59:28 AM »
Having just researched/purchased one -- my absolute "must haves" are below as a reference for you:

  • Must be 2013+.  There were some nice enhancements to the vehicle to improve real-world range (high efficiency heat pump, lighter weight, etc), and the batteries seem to be holding up better than the 2011/12s
  • Must be "SL" trim, or "SV" with the optional Quick Charge Port / LED headlights.  With EV infrastructure continuing to grow, having the quick charge port is a must have - it's optional on 2013+ SV and standard on all SL.  The SL/SV trims also get you the higher capacity 6.6kW on-board charger - which means your charging times on "Level 2" public charging stations are cut in half vs. the 3.3kW charger on 2011/12 models and 2013+ "S" trim level
  • Must be Nissan Certified Pre-Owned (CPO).  Two reasons - 1) this makes the vehicle eligible for the "CPO wrap" warranty plan, which is about $1,600 on the Leaf.  This gets you a 7yr/100k mi bumper-to-bumper warranty on the entire car, which can be financed.  2) CPO cars are eligible for NMAC financing promotions, which are usually 0.9% for up to 60mo, and sometimes as low as 0.0% APR for 60mo.

Once you're able to narrow your search to cars that meet those criteria, just look for the one that has the best combination of mileage/price.  Good luck and happy shopping!

I'm glad you researched things and got what you were looking for! For a different perspective for others, I actually differ from you a bit on all three.

I already described above why I don't think the 2013 upgrades are super important:

I think the LED lights are not that important. The headlights are powered by the 12v battery (not the traction battery) so they really don't affect range in a day. And the amount of energy the non-LED headlights use is on the order of 1 percent of the traction battery pack anyway, so it's really not decreasing your range to use them.

The Quick Charge port is nice, but we've actually never used it in either of the cars yet. I decided it was worth it to get the upgrade in case we'd use it for road trips in the future. Quick charge stations will become more prevalent as the cars become more popular.

The heat pump has also not been important for us. I actually never used the heater at all in the winter. I just wore a coat and gloves (occasionally a hat too) and used the steering wheel heater and seat heater (both powered from the 12v battery and do not affect range). It was comfortable.

I would have no hesitation about getting a used Leaf without those features. Just be aware of how many bars of capacity have been lost. The warranty on capacity still applies to used cars if they lose more than 3 of the 12 bars.

So it doesn't matter if the battery is holding up as well, just as long as it dips below 9 bars before 5 years/60k. You can just get a free new battery under warranty. And the new batteries are improved.

We have 2 S models w/the upgraded charging package. So we get the QC ports (which we've never used) and the faster 6.6kW. The S w/charging package is cheaper than the SL or the SV. It doesn't have the navigation system, but I have a GPS and 4 phones with GPS in them so I've never needed the navigation.

If you're looking at getting a used one that only has 3.6kW charging capability, and you're only driving it around town and charging overnight at home, that's plenty fast. But it would be infeasible to use on a road trip. But even the cars with QC are very limited for road trips at this point. You aren't going cross country yet. So maybe saving a little more on the purchase price is worth trading away this flexibility--a personal decision.

If you get CPO, you're probably paying a higher sale price and the extra warranty price. The financing might be nice, and feeling safe about the warranty might be nice too. But Nissan is only selling you the warranty because they don't expect anything much to go wrong with the car. There really isn't anything to wear out or break down. Hardly any moving parts. The battery is the expensive thing, and that already has a 8/100k factory warranty (5/60k capacity warranty). And batteries are getting dramatically cheaper over time.

uspsfanalan

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #164 on: July 22, 2015, 08:54:17 AM »
Having just researched/purchased one -- my absolute "must haves" are below as a reference for you:

  • Must be 2013+.  There were some nice enhancements to the vehicle to improve real-world range (high efficiency heat pump, lighter weight, etc), and the batteries seem to be holding up better than the 2011/12s
  • Must be "SL" trim, or "SV" with the optional Quick Charge Port / LED headlights.  With EV infrastructure continuing to grow, having the quick charge port is a must have - it's optional on 2013+ SV and standard on all SL.  The SL/SV trims also get you the higher capacity 6.6kW on-board charger - which means your charging times on "Level 2" public charging stations are cut in half vs. the 3.3kW charger on 2011/12 models and 2013+ "S" trim level
  • Must be Nissan Certified Pre-Owned (CPO).  Two reasons - 1) this makes the vehicle eligible for the "CPO wrap" warranty plan, which is about $1,600 on the Leaf.  This gets you a 7yr/100k mi bumper-to-bumper warranty on the entire car, which can be financed.  2) CPO cars are eligible for NMAC financing promotions, which are usually 0.9% for up to 60mo, and sometimes as low as 0.0% APR for 60mo.

Once you're able to narrow your search to cars that meet those criteria, just look for the one that has the best combination of mileage/price.  Good luck and happy shopping!

I agree about the 2013 information and battery improvements. The other two points weren't a big deal to me. I don't need a quick charge because we take my DW's Honda Fit for the road trips. As far as being certified pre-owned, I only had to pay 3,500 out of pocket in my case so it didn't make sense to finance that. I'm not interested in paying for an extended warranty, especially not financing it. For me I'd rather self insure.


Jeremy E.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #166 on: July 22, 2015, 01:22:33 PM »
Having just researched/purchased one -- my absolute "must haves" are below as a reference for you:

  • Must be 2013+.  There were some nice enhancements to the vehicle to improve real-world range (high efficiency heat pump, lighter weight, etc), and the batteries seem to be holding up better than the 2011/12s
  • Must be "SL" trim, or "SV" with the optional Quick Charge Port / LED headlights.  With EV infrastructure continuing to grow, having the quick charge port is a must have - it's optional on 2013+ SV and standard on all SL.  The SL/SV trims also get you the higher capacity 6.6kW on-board charger - which means your charging times on "Level 2" public charging stations are cut in half vs. the 3.3kW charger on 2011/12 models and 2013+ "S" trim level
  • Must be Nissan Certified Pre-Owned (CPO).  Two reasons - 1) this makes the vehicle eligible for the "CPO wrap" warranty plan, which is about $1,600 on the Leaf.  This gets you a 7yr/100k mi bumper-to-bumper warranty on the entire car, which can be financed.  2) CPO cars are eligible for NMAC financing promotions, which are usually 0.9% for up to 60mo, and sometimes as low as 0.0% APR for 60mo.

Once you're able to narrow your search to cars that meet those criteria, just look for the one that has the best combination of mileage/price.  Good luck and happy shopping!
Thanks for posting that info along with Forummms as I needed to figure out the difference between various 2013 models. The SV/SL are much more expensive then the S models and now I know why. 

But I have decided not to get a Leaf after all because I'd either have to spend several thousand $$'s a year on rentals or buy a second car for longer road trips. So, since I rarely need to drive a car around town, I will just keep my old gas guzzling smog spewing truck for now and use that for long trips and continue to ride my bike around town.  Even though it's 15 years old (I've had it for 9 years and bought it for $4000) it only has 104,000 miles on it and runs fine with lots of new things like tires, battery, fuel pump, etc... so will last me a long time and is more practical for me to camp in and bring my "toys" and gear.  Very hard for me to turn down all that basically free money in the form of incentives to buy the Leaf, but in the long run I think it will cost me more and be less useful to me. Too bad as I  think the Leafs are really a great little car. Maybe someday. Still looking into hybrids but most are too expensive even with the incentives so probably won't do that either. Guess I'll continue to keep Cali smoggy and gassy :-)!
You could look into a used plug in prius some of them are darn cheap.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #167 on: July 24, 2015, 09:11:04 AM »
Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, in Calif you can write off $2500 on your state taxes if you buy a NEW Leaf. Plus get a single occupancy HOV lane sticker. Also some of the dealers in the LA metro area are giving new buyers a free 2 year charge card to use at the fast charge stations around town or at the dealer. Not sure what that's worth.
For your situation, used makes more sense

tonysemail

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #168 on: July 24, 2015, 12:14:17 PM »
I went for a test drive this week and got a price sheet for a new leaf.
the charge card promotion sounds nice, but considering my commute, I doubt I will be using it much.

A 2015 S model + QC package will cost $23.5k.
with federal and state tax credits adding up to $10k, my net cost would be $13.5k.
used leafs are selling between $9.5k-12k in my area, so I'm re-evaluating whether I should just purchase new.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #169 on: July 24, 2015, 01:36:39 PM »
I went for a test drive this week and got a price sheet for a new leaf.
the charge card promotion sounds nice, but considering my commute, I doubt I will be using it much.

A 2015 S model + QC package will cost $23.5k.
with federal and state tax credits adding up to $10k, my net cost would be $13.5k.
used leafs are selling between $9.5k-12k in my area, so I'm re-evaluating whether I should just purchase new.

Plus 0% interest for 6 years. These are some of the reasons why I bought new. I bet you could get the price down more if you followed the method I suggest upthread. Basically, just email a bunch of dealers through their websites and ask what their best "out the door" price is for the 2015 S+QC. They will be all over the place. Take the best one.

daverobev

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #170 on: July 25, 2015, 01:21:20 PM »
Where are you seeing so cheap? On Nissan's site it's like $21k AFTER incentives, $30k without.

In Canada they are from $32k, less $8.5k in Ontario, plus Nissan are knocking 3.5k off the standard price. Cash purchase - for the base model - is $23k CAD.

I'm sure you could negotiate another thousand or two down, but not another 30%!

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #171 on: July 25, 2015, 01:46:19 PM »
Where are you seeing so cheap? On Nissan's site it's like $21k AFTER incentives, $30k without.

In Canada they are from $32k, less $8.5k in Ontario, plus Nissan are knocking 3.5k off the standard price. Cash purchase - for the base model - is $23k CAD.

I'm sure you could negotiate another thousand or two down, but not another 30%!

You'd have to see what's available in your area. Nissan probably does different pricing in US vs Canada. For US buyers they are offering a $5k rebate, plus 0% financing, plus the federal tax credit, plus any state credit. I believe tonysemail's quote includes the $5k rebate already.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #172 on: July 27, 2015, 04:36:24 PM »
Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, in Calif you can write off $2500 on your state taxes if you buy a NEW Leaf. Plus get a single occupancy HOV lane sticker. Also some of the dealers in the LA metro area are giving new buyers a free 2 year charge card to use at the fast charge stations around town or at the dealer. Not sure what that's worth.
For your situation, used makes more sense
Yeah the new ones around here start in the $30K range so even with all the various incentives that's too rich for my (frugal) blood. Ditched the EV idea altogether though as it wouldn't be practical for me - or financially worthwhile even if it was basically free as I'd need a second car - but still looking at hybrids (plug in and regular ones) in case anything affordable crops up that I can use the incentives towards. Otherwise I'll keep my truck for now until it dies.

One question I had about EV though is how does it do in stop in go traffic? Especially in a hot area where you will be running the ac while stuck in traffic. I read somewhere that the mileage foes way down in those kinds of situations to something like 45 miles/charge (and that was without using the a/c if that makes a difference). Here in SoCal where traffic is a nightmare even outside of commuting times, I'd think that could be a problem.

I havent seen any EV's stranded on the 405 or 5.  I mean no more than any other car.  That still doesnt mean it hasnt made for a miserable day for some EV owners. 

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #173 on: July 27, 2015, 05:10:34 PM »
Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, in Calif you can write off $2500 on your state taxes if you buy a NEW Leaf. Plus get a single occupancy HOV lane sticker. Also some of the dealers in the LA metro area are giving new buyers a free 2 year charge card to use at the fast charge stations around town or at the dealer. Not sure what that's worth.
For your situation, used makes more sense
Yeah the new ones around here start in the $30K range so even with all the various incentives that's too rich for my (frugal) blood. Ditched the EV idea altogether though as it wouldn't be practical for me - or financially worthwhile even if it was basically free as I'd need a second car - but still looking at hybrids (plug in and regular ones) in case anything affordable crops up that I can use the incentives towards. Otherwise I'll keep my truck for now until it dies.

One question I had about EV though is how does it do in stop in go traffic? Especially in a hot area where you will be running the ac while stuck in traffic. I read somewhere that the mileage foes way down in those kinds of situations to something like 45 miles/charge (and that was without using the a/c if that makes a difference). Here in SoCal where traffic is a nightmare even outside of commuting times, I'd think that could be a problem.

My entire commute is stop and go (8 miles, takes 45 minutes). I get about 100 miles per charge (90 in winter, 105 in summer).

I forget what you said your incentives were under the CA program. But I think it was around $10k. So that would be:
$29k purchase price (what I paid including the dealer fee for the 2015 S w/charging package)
-$7500 federal tax credit (assuming you paid that much in tax)
-$2500 CA tax credit
-$5000 NMAC rebate
-$10k CA program (assuming new cars are eligible and the amount is correct)
=$4k for brand new electric car with full warranty and no gas to buy and almost no maintenance to do, etc.

Is that right?

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #174 on: July 27, 2015, 06:51:36 PM »
Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, in Calif you can write off $2500 on your state taxes if you buy a NEW Leaf. Plus get a single occupancy HOV lane sticker. Also some of the dealers in the LA metro area are giving new buyers a free 2 year charge card to use at the fast charge stations around town or at the dealer. Not sure what that's worth.
For your situation, used makes more sense
Yeah the new ones around here start in the $30K range so even with all the various incentives that's too rich for my (frugal) blood. Ditched the EV idea altogether though as it wouldn't be practical for me - or financially worthwhile even if it was basically free as I'd need a second car - but still looking at hybrids (plug in and regular ones) in case anything affordable crops up that I can use the incentives towards. Otherwise I'll keep my truck for now until it dies.

One question I had about EV though is how does it do in stop in go traffic? Especially in a hot area where you will be running the ac while stuck in traffic. I read somewhere that the mileage foes way down in those kinds of situations to something like 45 miles/charge (and that was without using the a/c if that makes a difference). Here in SoCal where traffic is a nightmare even outside of commuting times, I'd think that could be a problem.

My entire commute is stop and go (8 miles, takes 45 minutes). I get about 100 miles per charge (90 in winter, 105 in summer).

I forget what you said your incentives were under the CA program. But I think it was around $10k. So that would be:
$29k purchase price (what I paid including the dealer fee for the 2015 S w/charging package)
-$7500 federal tax credit (assuming you paid that much in tax)
-$2500 CA tax credit
-$5000 NMAC rebate
-$10k CA program (assuming new cars are eligible and the amount is correct)
=$4k for brand new electric car with full warranty and no gas to buy and almost no maintenance to do, etc.

Is that right?
The incentives for the Calif clean air thing in my income bracket are $11K for an EV or plug in hybrid  ($9500 towards a vehicle and $1500 to junk my old vehicle - you HAVE to junk your old vehicle or you can't qualify for the program) plus $2K towards the EVSE and having it installed. I wouldn't qualify for the income tax breaks as I have too low of a taxable income (i.e. pretty much in the zero tax bracket) so would have a pretty large outlay of cash to buy new even with the incentives.  Plus I'd still need to buy a second gas or hybrid car (or spend a lot on rentals over the years) whether I bought a new Leaf or a used one.  So thinking a hybrid or gas car is the way go - or just nothing and keep the truck. The incentives are lower for a regular hybrid ($6500) and high mpg gas ($4000 - $4500) plus the $1500 in all cases to junk the old truck. Any of the cars that I can choose from (from very specific dealers) can be used or new as long as they aren't over 8 years old. I'm still running the numbers and looking obsessively at everything available so you never know.

Yeah, I understand your situation (desired usage) is a little different. Just curious what might be available for someone. Does the CA program work for a lease? Nissan passes along the federal tax credit to the lessee.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #175 on: July 28, 2015, 12:51:52 AM »
Fascinating stuff. Just read through most of this thread and now considering a Leaf. I purchased a '13 Honda Accord Coupe and have been looking to ditch it for something a little more useful, less expensive, and better for the environment. Although with a newer car with moderately good fuel economy and income surpassing their threshold, it looks as though I wouldn't qualify for the CA plan.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #176 on: July 28, 2015, 08:36:27 AM »
Consumer Reports recommends used Nissan Leafs.

Quote
Want a cheap, reliable car? Consider a used Nissan Leaf

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/want-cheap-reliable-car-consider-used-nissan-leaf-193000585.html

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #177 on: July 29, 2015, 05:42:46 PM »
  Does the CA program work for a lease? Nissan passes along the federal tax credit to the lessee.
OK I just double checked and it appears they do leases for new plug in hybrids and EV - including 2015 Leafs. They are also available for Teslas, Cadillacs, BMWs, Mercedes, Lexis' - you know...poor people cars :-)! Not sure how that program works but to buy (and maybe to lease too) they give you a voucher for amount of $$ incentives you qualify for to take to the dealer. I need to decide soon as you only have 30 days once qualified to scrap your old car and get something new with the incentives. Decisions, decisions....

If interested in what vehicles you can lease you can go to www.replaceyourride.com, go replacement options, then go to advanced technology vehicles and at the bottom of the page is a link to available vehicles you can lease.

$10k off a lease? So:
$29k purchase price (what I paid including the dealer fee for the 2015 S w/charging package)
-$9475 NMAC credit
-$2500 CA tax credit (assuming you can get this on a lease and you have the tax liability for it or else it's refundable)
-$11k CA program (assuming new cars are eligible and the amount is correct)
=$6k for brand new electric car with full warranty and no gas to buy and almost no maintenance to do, etc.

You could lease it for almost nothing and then buy it for almost nothing ($6k total) when the lease was up and then turn around and sell it for profit if you didn't want to keep it (but you'll love it).

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #178 on: July 29, 2015, 10:23:12 PM »
I'm in SoCal but if my annual income is over 90k I don't qualify for anything in the replace your ride program, correct?  I'm not sure if I'm reading the "above moderate" income eligibility correctly.

I also have a jeep Cherokee that's worth about 5 to 8k so I wouldn't really want to junk it for 1500.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #179 on: July 30, 2015, 01:29:29 PM »
I live in Georgia too and got a leaf through VPP about a year ago! I love it and I am getting paid to drive it! I have talked 3 for my neighbors and sister in law into getting one as well!

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #180 on: July 30, 2015, 01:47:59 PM »
I live in Georgia too and got a leaf through VPP about a year ago! I love it and I am getting paid to drive it! I have talked 3 for my neighbors and sister in law into getting one as well!

Cool! My co-worker got one too and loves it. It sucks that GA did away with the tax credit though. It was like the one good thing the state ever did--even if it was by accident.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #181 on: July 30, 2015, 02:09:47 PM »
I live in Georgia too and got a leaf through VPP about a year ago! I love it and I am getting paid to drive it! I have talked 3 for my neighbors and sister in law into getting one as well!

Cool! My co-worker got one too and loves it. It sucks that GA did away with the tax credit though. It was like the one good thing the state ever did--even if it was by accident.

Yeah I was hoping they kept it until June 2016 (When my lease is up, so I could get another)
Might end up making a couple more thousand on this if they subtract my lease buyout amount by 7k like they are with the older models.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #182 on: August 07, 2015, 04:17:31 PM »
One more (final!) question about the Leaf - how long does the battery hold it's charge? If you let it just sit for a few weeks without being charged during that time will it lose all it's charge? Does letting it sit for a couple of months without being charged casue any harm/damage to the battery? Also, since I see that the 12V battery to use the lights. etc is solar powered, if it's parked in a garage for a certain length of time will that lose it's charge? TIA
Not completely scientific, but this post and this wiki might give you an idea about the discharge rate. I know a bit about Li+ battery care with personal electronics, but I don't know firsthand what care tips are applicable/advisable.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #183 on: August 07, 2015, 04:49:40 PM »
Yes, Li+ batteries last longest when they are kept at a partial charge- in the past, that has been 50-75%, but advancements in Li+ battery technology may have changed that since I last read. Another maintenance tip is more frequent smaller charges is more beneficial than a single large charge- in other words, don't frequently wait until it drops to like 5% or so before charging it to 100%- though I imagine since its operation and function are crucial, I doubt that you'd want to let it drop that low too often anyway.

I brushed up on some battery tips here:
  • A device should be turned off while charging. This allows the battery to reach the threshold voltage unhindered and reach a low saturation current when full. A parasitic load confuses the charger.
  • Charge at a moderate temperature. Do not charge below freezing. (See BU-410: Charging at High and Low Temperatures)
  • Lithium-ion does not need to be fully charged; a partial charge is better.
  • Depending on charger, the battery may not always be fully charged when the “ready” indication appears. Not all apply a toping charge and the runtime will be slightly less.
  • Discontinue using charger and/or battery if the battery gets excessively warm.
  • Apply some charge to an empty battery before storage (40 percent SoC is ideal)

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #184 on: August 07, 2015, 05:13:38 PM »
One more (final!) question about the Leaf - how long does the battery hold it's charge? If you let it just sit for a few weeks without being charged during that time will it lose all it's charge? Does letting it sit for a couple of months without being charged casue any harm/damage to the battery? Also, since I see that the 12V battery to use the lights. etc is solar powered, if it's parked in a garage for a certain length of time will that lose it's charge? TIA

Looks like you've already seen the Nissan guidance. I've been gone for a couple weeks and didn't notice any charge depletion (which is good because I had to drive home from the airport). But if you're going to be gone for an extra long time you can leave it plugged in. Generally, it's better for the battery to let it sit about half full if it's going to be an extended time sitting unused. The 12V battery is separate and it can always be charged or jump started if it becomes depleted. It's lead acid (just like an ICE car battery) so it's not too problematic if it gets discharged (it doesn't "brick" the battery). But the 12V battery is normally charged by taking a little from the Li-ion battery. But the 12V battery doesn't get drained while it's just sitting there. If you leave it plugged in it charges from the wall.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #185 on: August 07, 2015, 06:22:09 PM »
One more (final!) question about the Leaf - how long does the battery hold it's charge? If you let it just sit for a few weeks without being charged during that time will it lose all it's charge? Does letting it sit for a couple of months without being charged casue any harm/damage to the battery? Also, since I see that the 12V battery to use the lights. etc is solar powered, if it's parked in a garage for a certain length of time will that lose it's charge? TIA

Looks like you've already seen the Nissan guidance. I've been gone for a couple weeks and didn't notice any charge depletion (which is good because I had to drive home from the airport). But if you're going to be gone for an extra long time you can leave it plugged in. Generally, it's better for the battery to let it sit about half full if it's going to be an extended time sitting unused. The 12V battery is separate and it can always be charged or jump started if it becomes depleted. It's lead acid (just like an ICE car battery) so it's not too problematic if it gets discharged (it doesn't "brick" the battery). But the 12V battery is normally charged by taking a little from the Li-ion battery. But the 12V battery doesn't get drained while it's just sitting there. If you leave it plugged in it charges from the wall.
I'm not sure if I'd always be able to leave it plugged in if I was gone as I might end up having to put it in storage somewhere for many months if I ended up selling the house to travel full time or moved somewhere where I couldn't leave it plugged in all the time - like an condo. Can't sell it for 30 months and need to keep it registered in Calif to get the incentives so could be a problem down the road if I move or travel long term. Something to think about in my great Leaf vs. hybrid vs. ICE vs. nothing decision :-)!

I don't think you'll have a problem if you leave it for months in CA. Here are people who left theirs unplugged for months and didn't have problems:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=8125

If you're going to be gone for like 6 months, it should be OK. But you could just ask a friend to plug it in for an hour one time about 3 months into your trip.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #186 on: August 07, 2015, 07:08:45 PM »
Ahhhh... this thread keeps popping up in my new replies. The leaf's look so cool and I would love one but can't take advantage of the whole tax refund and not really in a need/position for new car.

Enjoy for those who have/get one!!

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #187 on: August 11, 2015, 11:16:09 AM »
I'm thinking about going this route with a Chevy Spark. There is currently a lease deal in CA for 138/month and 0 down for 39 months. This equals about 6k over 3 years and 3 months. I think this is a better option for me over buying for a few reasons:

(1) We only plan to be in the area for 5 more years, so this lease would get us most of the way there. When we move to our FIRE destination the 80 mile range may not be sufficient (a more rural area).

(2) EVs generally have low resale value. The reason for this is because of the tax incentives (only good for new purchases) and concerns about LI battery life.

(3) The lease is a good deal and the dealer seems to be passing some of the federal credit on to the lessee

We are thinking about pairing this option with a PV system on our home. So the total cost of driving the Spark would be 138 a month including electricity. But I know that PV systems typically don't give a positive return until 5-7 years, at which point we may be out of the house.

Lots to think about. I would appreciate everyone's thoughts. Meanwhile I'll keep driving my 20 year old Nissan and hoping it doesn't break down!

spud1987

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #188 on: August 11, 2015, 12:43:58 PM »
I'm thinking about going this route with a Chevy Spark. There is currently a lease deal in CA for 138/month and 0 down for 39 months. This equals about 6k over 3 years and 3 months. I think this is a better option for me over buying for a few reasons:

(1) We only plan to be in the area for 5 more years, so this lease would get us most of the way there. When we move to our FIRE destination the 80 mile range may not be sufficient (a more rural area).

(2) EVs generally have low resale value. The reason for this is because of the tax incentives (only good for new purchases) and concerns about LI battery life.

(3) The lease is a good deal and the dealer seems to be passing some of the federal credit on to the lessee

We are thinking about pairing this option with a PV system on our home. So the total cost of driving the Spark would be 138 a month including electricity. But I know that PV systems typically don't give a positive return until 5-7 years, at which point we may be out of the house.

Lots to think about. I would appreciate everyone's thoughts. Meanwhile I'll keep driving my 20 year old Nissan and hoping it doesn't break down!
Depending on where you live in Cali you may qualify for this program to get $9500 towards the purchase or lease of an EV: http://www.aqmd.gov/home/library/public-information/2015-news-archives/replaceyourridepr The lease is for new EVs but if you buy then you can get an used EV. The cost of the incentives can cover almost 100% for the cost of a used 2013 Leaf or about 90% for some other used EVs like the Spark or the Ford Focus EV. Plus they cover $2K towards a EVSE station in your house.

That link is for the SoCal but NorCal is on the program itself. There are income restrictions though so you may not qualify. I've decided not to buy a car on this program and keep my old truck for now (although I did ask for an extension so I can have some more time to look at vehicles) but I think it's a good deal for someone who has an older car they want to trade in for an EV.

Thanks for the link! Looks like I'm well above the income limits, but it is definitely something to consider when I'm FIRE-d.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #189 on: August 18, 2015, 03:22:42 AM »
I'm thinking about going this route with a Chevy Spark. There is currently a lease deal in CA for 138/month and 0 down for 39 months. This equals about 6k over 3 years and 3 months. I think this is a better option for me over buying for a few reasons:

(1) We only plan to be in the area for 5 more years, so this lease would get us most of the way there. When we move to our FIRE destination the 80 mile range may not be sufficient (a more rural area).

(2) EVs generally have low resale value. The reason for this is because of the tax incentives (only good for new purchases) and concerns about LI battery life.

(3) The lease is a good deal and the dealer seems to be passing some of the federal credit on to the lessee

We are thinking about pairing this option with a PV system on our home. So the total cost of driving the Spark would be 138 a month including electricity. But I know that PV systems typically don't give a positive return until 5-7 years, at which point we may be out of the house.

Lots to think about. I would appreciate everyone's thoughts. Meanwhile I'll keep driving my 20 year old Nissan and hoping it doesn't break down!
Depending on where you live in Cali you may qualify for this program to get $9500 towards the purchase or lease of an EV: http://www.aqmd.gov/home/library/public-information/2015-news-archives/replaceyourridepr The lease is for new EVs but if you buy then you can get an used EV. The cost of the incentives can cover almost 100% for the cost of a used 2013 Leaf or about 90% for some other used EVs like the Spark or the Ford Focus EV. Plus they cover $2K towards a EVSE station in your house.

That link is for the SoCal but NorCal is on the program itself. There are income restrictions though so you may not qualify. I've decided not to buy a car on this program and keep my old truck for now (although I did ask for an extension so I can have some more time to look at vehicles) but I think it's a good deal for someone who has an older car they want to trade in for an EV.

So let me get this straight.... if you were in one of the income thresholds, and could trade in an older vehicle, you would qualify for the discounts of the trade-in program PLUS State PLUS Federal PLUS dealership discounts, AND get 0% financing? That could add up to over $20000 in saving on a new vehicle which is already the most cost effective way to commute. Is that correct? If so I need to give serious consideration to this.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #190 on: August 18, 2015, 09:16:49 AM »
I'm thinking about going this route with a Chevy Spark. There is currently a lease deal in CA for 138/month and 0 down for 39 months. This equals about 6k over 3 years and 3 months. I think this is a better option for me over buying for a few reasons:

(1) We only plan to be in the area for 5 more years, so this lease would get us most of the way there. When we move to our FIRE destination the 80 mile range may not be sufficient (a more rural area).

(2) EVs generally have low resale value. The reason for this is because of the tax incentives (only good for new purchases) and concerns about LI battery life.

(3) The lease is a good deal and the dealer seems to be passing some of the federal credit on to the lessee

We are thinking about pairing this option with a PV system on our home. So the total cost of driving the Spark would be 138 a month including electricity. But I know that PV systems typically don't give a positive return until 5-7 years, at which point we may be out of the house.

Lots to think about. I would appreciate everyone's thoughts. Meanwhile I'll keep driving my 20 year old Nissan and hoping it doesn't break down!
Depending on where you live in Cali you may qualify for this program to get $9500 towards the purchase or lease of an EV: http://www.aqmd.gov/home/library/public-information/2015-news-archives/replaceyourridepr The lease is for new EVs but if you buy then you can get an used EV. The cost of the incentives can cover almost 100% for the cost of a used 2013 Leaf or about 90% for some other used EVs like the Spark or the Ford Focus EV. Plus they cover $2K towards a EVSE station in your house.

That link is for the SoCal but NorCal is on the program itself. There are income restrictions though so you may not qualify. I've decided not to buy a car on this program and keep my old truck for now (although I did ask for an extension so I can have some more time to look at vehicles) but I think it's a good deal for someone who has an older car they want to trade in for an EV.

So let me get this straight.... if you were in one of the income thresholds, and could trade in an older vehicle, you would qualify for the discounts of the trade-in program PLUS State PLUS Federal PLUS dealership discounts, AND get 0% financing? That could add up to over $20000 in saving on a new vehicle which is already the most cost effective way to commute. Is that correct? If so I need to give serious consideration to this.

That's what it sounds like. I tried to clarify this upthread.

Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, in Calif you can write off $2500 on your state taxes if you buy a NEW Leaf. Plus get a single occupancy HOV lane sticker. Also some of the dealers in the LA metro area are giving new buyers a free 2 year charge card to use at the fast charge stations around town or at the dealer. Not sure what that's worth.
For your situation, used makes more sense
Yeah the new ones around here start in the $30K range so even with all the various incentives that's too rich for my (frugal) blood. Ditched the EV idea altogether though as it wouldn't be practical for me - or financially worthwhile even if it was basically free as I'd need a second car - but still looking at hybrids (plug in and regular ones) in case anything affordable crops up that I can use the incentives towards. Otherwise I'll keep my truck for now until it dies.

One question I had about EV though is how does it do in stop in go traffic? Especially in a hot area where you will be running the ac while stuck in traffic. I read somewhere that the mileage foes way down in those kinds of situations to something like 45 miles/charge (and that was without using the a/c if that makes a difference). Here in SoCal where traffic is a nightmare even outside of commuting times, I'd think that could be a problem.

My entire commute is stop and go (8 miles, takes 45 minutes). I get about 100 miles per charge (90 in winter, 105 in summer).

I forget what you said your incentives were under the CA program. But I think it was around $10k. So that would be:
$29k purchase price (what I paid including the dealer fee for the 2015 S w/charging package)
-$7500 federal tax credit (assuming you paid that much in tax)
-$2500 CA tax credit
-$5000 NMAC rebate
-$10k CA program (assuming new cars are eligible and the amount is correct)
=$4k for brand new electric car with full warranty and no gas to buy and almost no maintenance to do, etc.

Is that right?
The incentives for the Calif clean air thing in my income bracket are $11K for an EV or plug in hybrid  ($9500 towards a vehicle and $1500 to junk my old vehicle - you HAVE to junk your old vehicle or you can't qualify for the program) plus $2K towards the EVSE and having it installed. I wouldn't qualify for the income tax breaks as I have too low of a taxable income (i.e. pretty much in the zero tax bracket) so would have a pretty large outlay of cash to buy new even with the incentives.  Plus I'd still need to buy a second gas or hybrid car (or spend a lot on rentals over the years) whether I bought a new Leaf or a used one.  So thinking a hybrid or gas car is the way go - or just nothing and keep the truck. The incentives are lower for a regular hybrid ($6500) and high mpg gas ($4000 - $4500) plus the $1500 in all cases to junk the old truck. Any of the cars that I can choose from (from very specific dealers) can be used or new as long as they aren't over 8 years old. I'm still running the numbers and looking obsessively at everything available so you never know.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #191 on: August 18, 2015, 09:41:02 AM »
Ahhhh... this thread keeps popping up in my new replies. The leaf's look so cool and I would love one but can't take advantage of the whole tax refund and not really in a need/position for new car.
Anyone and everyone can take advantage of the full tax credit (and more) by buying a used one. It's typically priced into the used ones whether the buyer was able to take it or not (you wouldn't believe the bitching and whining on EV forums over that, but it is the consistently observed market behavior). I got my Volt one year old with 4800 miles for about 55% of the new price. LEAFs come down fast too (one more reason not to buy new). I've seen them under $10K already.

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #192 on: August 18, 2015, 10:37:03 AM »
I'm thinking about going this route with a Chevy Spark. There is currently a lease deal in CA for 138/month and 0 down for 39 months. This equals about 6k over 3 years and 3 months. I think this is a better option for me over buying for a few reasons:

(1) We only plan to be in the area for 5 more years, so this lease would get us most of the way there. When we move to our FIRE destination the 80 mile range may not be sufficient (a more rural area).

(2) EVs generally have low resale value. The reason for this is because of the tax incentives (only good for new purchases) and concerns about LI battery life.

(3) The lease is a good deal and the dealer seems to be passing some of the federal credit on to the lessee

We are thinking about pairing this option with a PV system on our home. So the total cost of driving the Spark would be 138 a month including electricity. But I know that PV systems typically don't give a positive return until 5-7 years, at which point we may be out of the house.

Lots to think about. I would appreciate everyone's thoughts. Meanwhile I'll keep driving my 20 year old Nissan and hoping it doesn't break down!
Depending on where you live in Cali you may qualify for this program to get $9500 towards the purchase or lease of an EV: http://www.aqmd.gov/home/library/public-information/2015-news-archives/replaceyourridepr The lease is for new EVs but if you buy then you can get an used EV. The cost of the incentives can cover almost 100% for the cost of a used 2013 Leaf or about 90% for some other used EVs like the Spark or the Ford Focus EV. Plus they cover $2K towards a EVSE station in your house.

That link is for the SoCal but NorCal is on the program itself. There are income restrictions though so you may not qualify. I've decided not to buy a car on this program and keep my old truck for now (although I did ask for an extension so I can have some more time to look at vehicles) but I think it's a good deal for someone who has an older car they want to trade in for an EV.

So let me get this straight.... if you were in one of the income thresholds, and could trade in an older vehicle, you would qualify for the discounts of the trade-in program PLUS State PLUS Federal PLUS dealership discounts, AND get 0% financing? That could add up to over $20000 in saving on a new vehicle which is already the most cost effective way to commute. Is that correct? If so I need to give serious consideration to this.

That's what it sounds like. I tried to clarify this upthread.

Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, in Calif you can write off $2500 on your state taxes if you buy a NEW Leaf. Plus get a single occupancy HOV lane sticker. Also some of the dealers in the LA metro area are giving new buyers a free 2 year charge card to use at the fast charge stations around town or at the dealer. Not sure what that's worth.
For your situation, used makes more sense
Yeah the new ones around here start in the $30K range so even with all the various incentives that's too rich for my (frugal) blood. Ditched the EV idea altogether though as it wouldn't be practical for me - or financially worthwhile even if it was basically free as I'd need a second car - but still looking at hybrids (plug in and regular ones) in case anything affordable crops up that I can use the incentives towards. Otherwise I'll keep my truck for now until it dies.

One question I had about EV though is how does it do in stop in go traffic? Especially in a hot area where you will be running the ac while stuck in traffic. I read somewhere that the mileage foes way down in those kinds of situations to something like 45 miles/charge (and that was without using the a/c if that makes a difference). Here in SoCal where traffic is a nightmare even outside of commuting times, I'd think that could be a problem.

My entire commute is stop and go (8 miles, takes 45 minutes). I get about 100 miles per charge (90 in winter, 105 in summer).

I forget what you said your incentives were under the CA program. But I think it was around $10k. So that would be:
$29k purchase price (what I paid including the dealer fee for the 2015 S w/charging package)
-$7500 federal tax credit (assuming you paid that much in tax)
-$2500 CA tax credit
-$5000 NMAC rebate
-$10k CA program (assuming new cars are eligible and the amount is correct)
=$4k for brand new electric car with full warranty and no gas to buy and almost no maintenance to do, etc.

Is that right?
The incentives for the Calif clean air thing in my income bracket are $11K for an EV or plug in hybrid  ($9500 towards a vehicle and $1500 to junk my old vehicle - you HAVE to junk your old vehicle or you can't qualify for the program) plus $2K towards the EVSE and having it installed. I wouldn't qualify for the income tax breaks as I have too low of a taxable income (i.e. pretty much in the zero tax bracket) so would have a pretty large outlay of cash to buy new even with the incentives.  Plus I'd still need to buy a second gas or hybrid car (or spend a lot on rentals over the years) whether I bought a new Leaf or a used one.  So thinking a hybrid or gas car is the way go - or just nothing and keep the truck. The incentives are lower for a regular hybrid ($6500) and high mpg gas ($4000 - $4500) plus the $1500 in all cases to junk the old truck. Any of the cars that I can choose from (from very specific dealers) can be used or new as long as they aren't over 8 years old. I'm still running the numbers and looking obsessively at everything available so you never know.

I cannot find anything about this for Northern California. I know of a very few people that might actually qualify for this, but they live in Northern CA.

tvan

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #193 on: August 18, 2015, 02:06:22 PM »
Ahhhh... this thread keeps popping up in my new replies. The leaf's look so cool and I would love one but can't take advantage of the whole tax refund and not really in a need/position for new car.
Anyone and everyone can take advantage of the full tax credit (and more) by buying a used one. It's typically priced into the used ones whether the buyer was able to take it or not (you wouldn't believe the bitching and whining on EV forums over that, but it is the consistently observed market behavior). I got my Volt one year old with 4800 miles for about 55% of the new price. LEAFs come down fast too (one more reason not to buy new). I've seen them under $10K already.

I've been considering a used leaf.  I think I can literally exchange my 2007 Jeep Cherokee for a newer model/less mileage Leaf at no cost to me with the tax deductions.  I need to run the numbers but it's almost as if I can make money by doing this exchange. 

For example this is less than 10k at Carmax (notoriously higher pricing).  My Jeep is selling for around 8k on Craigslist. 

http://www.carmax.com/enus/view-car/default.html?id=11235340&AVi=1&No=0&Rp=R&D=50&zip=92618&sP=0-10000&ASTc=Nissan%20Leaf&Us=4&Q=d09c730d-7aa1-4356-a0c3-9bd250ad5ca7&Ep=search:results:results%20page

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #194 on: August 18, 2015, 02:50:03 PM »
TrueCar is how I purchased my Civic. They'll also show dealers who participate through them, and they'll give you a "guarantee price" that they cannot go over, which often far lower than MSRP, usually not much higher than what the dealerships buy them for (a few hundred or so).

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #195 on: August 18, 2015, 05:22:43 PM »
Coupon Van - Here's the original thread someone posted about the program and it doesn't look like it includes NorCal - just central and south Cali. http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/free-cash-for-car-purchase-some-areas-of-california/msg726127/#msg726127

Thanks Spartana!  Unfortunately my peeps are North of the Golden Gate Bridge.  This sounds like a fantastic bargain for someone, but I'd think those with low incomes wouldn't qualify for the Fed/State tax credits and should totally be going for the 2-3 year old ones that are severly discounted already.

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #196 on: August 18, 2015, 06:03:13 PM »
Ahhhh... this thread keeps popping up in my new replies. The leaf's look so cool and I would love one but can't take advantage of the whole tax refund and not really in a need/position for new car.
Anyone and everyone can take advantage of the full tax credit (and more) by buying a used one. It's typically priced into the used ones whether the buyer was able to take it or not (you wouldn't believe the bitching and whining on EV forums over that, but it is the consistently observed market behavior). I got my Volt one year old with 4800 miles for about 55% of the new price. LEAFs come down fast too (one more reason not to buy new). I've seen them under $10K already.

I've been considering a used leaf.  I think I can literally exchange my 2007 Jeep Cherokee for a newer model/less mileage Leaf at no cost to me with the tax deductions.  I need to run the numbers but it's almost as if I can make money by doing this exchange. 

For example this is less than 10k at Carmax (notoriously higher pricing).  My Jeep is selling for around 8k on Craigslist. 

http://www.carmax.com/enus/view-car/default.html?id=11235340&AVi=1&No=0&Rp=R&D=50&zip=92618&sP=0-10000&ASTc=Nissan%20Leaf&Us=4&Q=d09c730d-7aa1-4356-a0c3-9bd250ad5ca7&Ep=search:results:results%20page
Ha HA - we'll be fighting over the same Leaf! OK so I decided not to get one so you're safe.

Forummm can correct me but I think the tax incentives are only for new Leafs. So, unless you qualify for the Replace Your Ride program then you have to pay full cost for used. You might also look at the True Car site as there seem to be more realistic prices then Car Max - and give you a better "real world" cost of what your trade in would sell for than KBB.

Yes, the tax credits are for new vehicles only.

Ahhhh... this thread keeps popping up in my new replies. The leaf's look so cool and I would love one but can't take advantage of the whole tax refund and not really in a need/position for new car.
Anyone and everyone can take advantage of the full tax credit (and more) by buying a used one. It's typically priced into the used ones whether the buyer was able to take it or not (you wouldn't believe the bitching and whining on EV forums over that, but it is the consistently observed market behavior). I got my Volt one year old with 4800 miles for about 55% of the new price. LEAFs come down fast too (one more reason not to buy new). I've seen them under $10K already.

I don't think this is an argument against buying new. The real price you pay is not $29k or whatever--it's the price after all those credits are subtracted from that. In my case I actually paid $13.5k for S w/QC, and got a $28k 0% 6-year loan for that (investing the surplus). So even if my car is only worth $13.5k now, I'm still making money off it due to investing the credits. And any car depreciates, so if I could sell it for $10k after 3 years, that's about the same value drop as my old Corolla would have dropped if I'd kept it.

tvan

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #197 on: August 18, 2015, 11:18:22 PM »
That sucks about the tax credit but it makes sense.

Are charging stations portable?  I ask becaus I'm renting and plan to move in the next 10 months which means an at home charging station would have to be moved. I don't think they are very portable. I also noticed today out apartment garage has no electric outlet. Wtf

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #198 on: August 19, 2015, 07:09:21 AM »
For the leaf drivers, this is a nice article about the quality of the drive of the Leaf vs expensive gas based cars.

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/08/18/why-a-nissan-leaf-or-renault-zoe-beats-a-mercedes-a180-mercedes-c180-or-bmw-320i/

forummm

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Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
« Reply #199 on: August 19, 2015, 08:30:58 AM »
That sucks about the tax credit but it makes sense.

Are charging stations portable?  I ask becaus I'm renting and plan to move in the next 10 months which means an at home charging station would have to be moved. I don't think they are very portable. I also noticed today out apartment garage has no electric outlet. Wtf
Not unless you have a 240v outlet (like some dryers have) in whatever new place you move to (and somewhere close enough so you can plug the charger and car into it). I think if you have that then you just plug in and that will charge you faster than a regular household outlet you can also use but takes a long long time to charge (am I right Forummm? Getting you to Walrus one question at a time :-)!)

The 120V (standard household outlet) EVSE that comes with the car is transportable. Many 240V (such as an electric range or dryer) EVSE have a plug so you can transport it. Mine has a plug and is about the size of large shoe box. There are much smaller ones that you can get as well that have plugs. There are different kinds of 240V outlets, so you can get a cheap adapter if you'll be going somewhere with a different 240V outlet. Even if you got one that was hardwired, you could add your own plug to it if you were somewhat handy just by buying a cord for an electric range and connecting the relevant wires (inside a junction box or inside the unit itself depending on the unit).

I recommend getting a portable version.