I listed two of the studies, that doesn't mean those are the only two that have found the same conclusions.
Again you miss the point. Citing a couple internet articles (either way) does nothing to establish any position. It's not how the scientific process works.
"thought out"? I've actually lived them. When I lived where it snowed, we kept the heat on just high enough that the cats water bowls stayed liquid. When I moved back to CA I went 3 years with no heat at all. Both were in an RV, so not a lot of insulation (although also not a huge space to fill). Now I use some, but I still keep it below what most people consider uncomfortably cold, and make up the difference with clothes.
Obviously you did not think them out, regardless of your claims to having lived them. If you had thought them out, you would not have suggested lowering temps in your house to levels that would require significant upfront costs to freeze protect the structure in a thread talking about saving energy with no upfront cost.
?? If the pipes susceptible to freezing are in crawl spaces and basements and other unheated spaces, they are accessible. If they are accessible, it does not require "extensive remodeling" to wrap a line heater and some insulation around it. If, on the other hand, the pipes are inside the insulated walls of a heated space, then keeping it from freezing inside should protect the pipes too.
You don't seem to understand temperature gradients or how insulation works. Just because the house, near the thermostat is @ 35 degrees, this does not mean the entire house is that temperature, and certainly does not mean that exterior, walls (insulated or not) are that temperature. Insulation, whether it's in a wall or in a coat, isn't a magic heating device; and, it does not maintain the same temperature of whatever it's insulating (its always less or more depending on whether its insulating from cold or heat). You're suggestion
WILL lead to exterior walls, insulated or not, dropping to freezing temperatures in places where the outside temperature drops below freezing for sustained periods (days, weeks or months). If there are water pipes in that wall, which is common, they
WILL freeze.
Hell, in places I've lived I had to freeze protect
interior plumbing (e.g. under a sink) because the temperature gradient in a house (insulated & heated in the 50s/60s) left those areas @ freezing temperatures.
And, freeze protecting plumbing for exterior walls is not as simple as applying heat tape, you'd have to move the pipes. A pipe heater should never be used in an enclosed space, especially if it's an insulated space (it's a fire hazard, and against most municipalities building codes).
So, what about moving the pipe? I'd have to:
* rip out ~two stories of wall around the pipe in TWO locations (to move the pipe to a different wall/path up the building).
* rip up a carpet, pad and subfloor to route the pipe to the laundry room again (and/or more walls and more PEX).
* buy probably 100' (accounting for both hot and cold) of new PEX + fittings + tools (not cheap)
* possibly have to reroute other things and/or use even more PEX
* replacement insulation, rent/buy other misc tools that I don't currently own, drywall, paint & other finishing materials, etc. Probably also have to replace something I would likely damage beyond repair.
That's certainly not an insignificant up front cost, and it's almost certainly not the only thing I would have to modify to properly freeze protect the structure. (there are at least a 10 water feeds in exterior walls). For example, I would still have to run heat pipe on the PEX running in non-enclosed spaces, and find some way to freeze protect the drainage systems (I, for one, prefer that my toilet can actually flush), and ironically,
the furnace (the condensate will freeze and cause problems, like a frozen blower motor). It could end up costing me thousands of dollars in just materials; 10s of thousands if I had a contractor do it (like most people would need).
Objectively, that would be a stupid thing to do; it could easily cost me several decades to see a return (probably never if I had a contractor do it). And, the up front investment I would require would add 0 value to my house (actually, it would probably reduce the value), vs. spending that money on weather proofing.
Now, while the above is fairly specific to me, it's also very common to have pipes running through or near exterior walls, and other places where temperatures can be well below the main portion of the house (as well as other things that may need freeze protection).
So, again, if you personally are an outlier for whatever reason, obviously you should ignore the parts that don't apply to you.
You apparently spend 1/10th what the typical American in a cold state spends ($2-3000 a year, vs your claimed $300).
I'm an "outlier" because I chose a reasonable path toward energy efficiency. First and formost, I have
1.) a small (by American standards) house with
2.) decent insulation and other weather proofing
3.) and don't attempt to heat my house to summer temps in the winter (nor do I drop them to stupid levels).
As far as cost...
(yes, I know your thread is about no up front cost, but that in itself is an unreasonable position to start from
You have the luxury to afford a massive upfront cost. Not everyone does. Some people are renters. Some live in RVs. Some own, but have no liquid capital left over for the cost of a new high efficiency furnace, taking down walls to add insulation, etc. Some buildings have no crawlspace and/or no attic, in which case there is no way to seal the foundation or add insulation in the ceiling.
While weather proofing is unquestionably the best option, if it isn't an available option it isn't particularly helpful.
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Most of the gains are from insulation, which is has a very low up front cost (if you do the labor) and and EXTREMELY high ROI. With a typical, frugal size house (<= 750 foot of footprint), I can insulate an attic with <$200 + sweatquity and enough balance to crawl on a set of 2x4s. You can insulate an average, non McMansion house, exterior walls for about $3-500 as well (with DIY + some low effort deal shopping -- depends a LOT on your house config). No, it doesn't require ripping walls down, you blow the insulation in through a small hole.
The roof insulation will have a positive ROI of a couple months (most heat escapes up; see: physics). The wall insulation will take longer, but is still only a few months worth of heating cost (not massive like you claim).
You can do other really cheap weatherproofing of your house. For example, if you can't afford two pane windows, you can get (better) benefits by using wool (or other heavy cloth) for window/door covering (probably $10-15 worth of _new_ bulk wool + some basic sewing abilities for a reasonable, small house) and/or use plastic wrap as a temporary insulation barrier similar to multi-pane windows ($1 per average window).
Foam insulation to seal the joints and cracks in your foundation is dirt cheap ( sealed mine with < $5 + a couple hours sweatquity, not even bothering to find the best cost for the stuff). Used inter-tubes to better seal your doors is free.
To you. If it isn't reasonable for you, its ok to not take it. I didn't write this specifically for MilesTeg. The relative costs of housing (some people are renters), moving (some people don't have lots of stuff), travel (not everyone currently lives near people they feel a need to visit frequently), are highly individual. So what is "reasonable" for you is still not objective fact.
You don't seem to understand what the word "objective" means. I have given you many objective (i.e. not based on personal bias) reasons why *some* of your advice (as originally given) here is poor. You are giving a piece of advice that will cost more (in energy, time, as well as other things) than it can possibly save.
I'm not saying *everything* you suggest is bad, or that someone must take it all or nothing. I'm simply saying *this* suggestion is bad for people who live in places where it actually gets cold (which is a big demographic).
I find it odd that you have a total of 6 posts, and 5 of them are here, complaining on the Mr Money Mustache forum that some random guys suggested way to use less energy is "objectively" too extreme.
What is your goal here? Are you afraid that thousands of people are going to read this and try it, regardless of their personal circumstances, and die? Is this some sort of defensive counter-attack because you feel guilty for spending 300 a month on heating in your past? Did you sign up for the forum just to troll me?
Everyone starts somewhere when they start participating in a community. If they are like me, they don't necessarily start contributing the moment they arrive.
So, how about we avoid crass personal attacks like the above, and stick to some civil conversation?
I have not, nor will I make disparaging comments about you or question your motives like in your above. All I am doing it what you explicitly solicited in this thread: giving you feedback.