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General Discussion => Share Your Badassity => Topic started by: malacca on April 04, 2018, 07:38:05 AM

Title: Moved Abroad
Post by: malacca on April 04, 2018, 07:38:05 AM
Well, run was more like it. Decided time to leave the USA (again). We actually feel more comfortable and secure abroad than in the US.

Well, we spent a year in an RV (2 young kids and all) in Cali. That was great. Sold the RV and moved back into our home while we planned our exit.

Got a cheap ONE WAY ticket to Asia. We stopped in one country for a month to visit friends and relatives. Then on to Malaysia. We lived in Malaysia for many years and love the place. It is an MMM dream. Everything is pretty cheap.

We pay $600 for our fully furnished seaside condo with incredible facilities. Of course we could get something cheaper but since we are renting out our house back home $600 is chump change.

We went to a hotel buffet last night. Great food - roast lamb, chicken, seafood - too many dishes to list. Great fresh fruit and desert. Kids were free and bill came to $22 for us 2. Easy way to get fat.

We are FI so money isn't an issue. But our lifestyle is much better here and we live off what we rent our house for. Of course we could spend a lot less if we had to.

Honestly just got sick of US life. We lived in a great neighborhood with low crime. But even in our neighborhood the number of people within 20 miles that were not criminals that were shot by the police is astonishing (compared to any of the other countries we lived in). Of course that number is nothing compared to the number of people killed in general. I am used to living in cities where you feel safe walking around anytime of night  - drunk or sober - with cash in your pocket.

Then Trump happened. Quickly got sick of hearing about his daily shit storms. Along with a meth head threatening to kill our family and the police deciding it wasn't an issue. In fact, the police were too busy investigating another meth head that had killed his parents after a judge strongly advised his parents to have him move in with them. Didn't that low level of concern just happen in Parkland Florida? Shit is broken and no one is even attempting to fix it.

So off we went. So far so good. Cars are smaller. Far fewer libraries. Banks are slower. No relatives around. Eat out much more. Travel a lot more. Relax more.

Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Padonak on April 04, 2018, 08:05:41 AM
Nice. Following.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: ducky19 on April 04, 2018, 09:04:30 AM
I'd agree, that's pretty badass! I can understand wanting to get away from the issues you described...
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: terran on April 04, 2018, 11:07:09 AM
What can you tell us about visa's while living abroad? How did you pick Malaysia over other SE Asian countries? How did you go about finding your apartment? Any other practicalities of foreign living you can share with those of us hoping to do the same one day?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: moonella on April 04, 2018, 12:50:13 PM
Congratulations, Malacca. I hope you'll be able to keep the rest of us, mustachians, posted on how you enjoy your life as an expat. I totally share your sentiments concerning the safety and the much lower cost of living while living abroad. My husband and I are carefully planning our "exit" but we set our sights on Spain. What appeals to us is the amazing weather, the extremely low cost of living, and the close proximity to the rest of European countries - we can hop on a plane and in an hour or two, we could be in another country. More importantly, the cost of health care is peanuts compared to the cost here. We'll be able to enjoy a better lifestyle at a much lower cost there. In a few years, we might come back...maybe not. A lot depends on the political and economic situation here...will there be an entitlement reform and how would that affect us, etc? At the moment, I am pessimistic about the direction of the country...but thankfully, when one is FI, he/she can choose to live wherever they want and wherever they would feel secure and happy.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: mtbbrown on April 04, 2018, 01:28:10 PM
Thanks Malacca for bringing this up. I haven't really been thinking about it, but being an expat could really reduce costs without having to sacrifice standard of living. It would almost certainly be more difficult to make money overseas as an American, but for somebody already FI, that doesn't really matter. I won't be making that leap yet since I'm far from FI, but I'm certainly interested in how you all do in your endavours. Best of luck to you all.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Holyoak on April 05, 2018, 05:42:09 PM
Congratulations, Malacca. I hope you'll be able to keep the rest of us, mustachians, posted on how you enjoy your life as an expat. I totally share your sentiments concerning the safety and the much lower cost of living while living abroad. My husband and I are carefully planning our "exit" but we set our sights on Spain. What appeals to us is the amazing weather, the extremely low cost of living, and the close proximity to the rest of European countries - we can hop on a plane and in an hour or two, we could be in another country. More importantly, the cost of health care is peanuts compared to the cost here. We'll be able to enjoy a better lifestyle at a much lower cost there. In a few years, we might come back...maybe not. A lot depends on the political and economic situation here...will there be an entitlement reform and how would that affect us, etc? At the moment, I am pessimistic about the direction of the country...but thankfully, when one is FI, he/she can choose to live wherever they want and wherever they would feel secure and happy.

Moonella,

Could you please fill in some details about your situation, such as:

I only have experience living in Germany for a few years, and have always thought Northern Spain looks like a beautiful place to retire.  Appreciate the help, thank you.

Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: malacca on April 06, 2018, 07:21:39 AM
I have lived outside of the US for most of my adult life after university - so I may not be the best person to fill in the gap as I probably take many things for granted.

Visas:
Many countries want to attract good people with money to spend. So they offer retirement visas or similar. In Malaysia's case they offer what is call MM2H Visa (google it). If you are over 50 you need to have about $100,000 in the bank (not your 401K) at the time of application. Once approved you will need to deposit about $40,000 in a Malaysian bank. It is in your name and a regular bank CD earning interest (3.5% currently). Visa is good for 10 years at a time. Easy to renew.

The visa is to filter out people who are just coming to Malaysia to work. `

You can visit anytime without a visa and stay for 90 days. If you are FIRE I suggest coming over for a few months to try it out. It is easy to rent a furnished condo for s few months at a time - as car as well ($400 a month).

Living abroad isn't for everyone - so I recommend trying it out first. On the other hand I have met people who came on holiday to Malaysia (or Thailand / Vietnam, etc.) and never left. They just sold everything and never looked back.

Spain / Portugal
Another great place is Spain (or Portugal). I have many friends that spend 1/2 year there and 1/2 year in Malaysia. COL is higher but still reasonable.

Health Care
Living in the USA fish bowl we have no idea what sane health care really is. And what we have is not sane in any way, shape or form.

I bought US style global health insurance for the family. With a $1000 deductible it is $2300 for a family of four. Years ago when I was visiting the US I was at a family gathering and said I paid $2100 (at that time) for my health insurance with a $1000 deductible. My cousin quipped he only pays $1300 with a $6000 deductible (which he thought was better deal statistically).

Well, there was a big difference. He was talking monthly and I was quoting my yearly cost!

This insurance is good almost anywhere in the world EXCEPT the USA. I wonder why.

COL
Well, COL is lower in many countries. But for me it is not about the COL as much is it about a better life. Period.

Working
You certainly can work overseas. Depending on your background you might do better. Or if you are FIRE and just want some extra pocket money / too bored you can do business or something online - or travel write. Just DO NOT open a restaurant or bar. It NEVER works out.

Numbers?
When we first moved to Malaysia I bought a condo and a car with cash. I certainly could have financed the condo with 20% down. So I had no mortgage or payments of any type. Kidless at the time we had a hard time spending USD1000 oer month. We ate out at fancy restaurant, had a cleaner come on twice a week, etc.

One reason I FIRED so young was because of this. I was still making a lot and spending less than 6% of my earnings. A 94% savings rate gets you to FIRE quickly.

Anyway, kids came along and spending increased a bit - about $300 a month. The total cost from first gyno visit to birth was about $1500 - with a private room and the best care imaginable.

Language Issues
One of the reasons we chose Malaysia is English is the primary language. It is a former British colony. Even the laws / courts are still in English. Several other languages are spoken widely but English is the main langiage in the bigger cities.

I heard Spain is not too bad. But Portugal's command of English is better than Spain.

Thailand
Absolutely a great place. But better for a visit than too live. It is just too wild and too much partying. And it is not a place to live if you are married.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Hirondelle on April 06, 2018, 08:25:36 AM
One way tickets are the best!

Considering your username I assume you live in Malacca which is a wonderful place. Glad you made the move and it's working out so well. I'm not sure I could live there long term, but for up to a year it sounds like a perfect spot to live and explore the surrounding areas (having KL airport near enough but living in a smaller and nicer city). And not to mention the amaaazing food.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: terran on April 07, 2018, 11:10:43 AM
Health Care
Living in the USA fish bowl we have no idea what sane health care really is. And what we have is not sane in any way, shape or form.

I bought US style global health insurance for the family. With a $1000 deductible it is $2300 for a family of four. Years ago when I was visiting the US I was at a family gathering and said I paid $2100 (at that time) for my health insurance with a $1000 deductible. My cousin quipped he only pays $1300 with a $6000 deductible (which he thought was better deal statistically).

Well, there was a big difference. He was talking monthly and I was quoting my yearly cost!

This insurance is good almost anywhere in the world EXCEPT the USA. I wonder why.

Oh yeah, I forgot to ask about health insurance. That's another one of those things I'm always curious about.

How did you go about finding your insurance? Is this travel insurance, or something else?

What do you do when/if you do visit the US? Can you get travel insurance that covers the US, or is that only available to people who aren't US citizens?

Thanks for all the rest of your thoughts too. All really good stuff.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: maizefolk on April 07, 2018, 11:19:09 AM
Thanks for posting this!

Language Issues
One of the reasons we chose Malaysia is English is the primary language. It is a former British colony. Even the laws / courts are still in English. Several other languages are spoken widely but English is the main langiage in the bigger cities.

Do you find you're still managing day to day in english or do you find yourself picking up Malay or other local languages? I've often thought about the potential of moving abroad, but I am generally terrible at learning new languages.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Hirondelle on April 07, 2018, 12:28:38 PM
Thanks for posting this!

Language Issues
One of the reasons we chose Malaysia is English is the primary language. It is a former British colony. Even the laws / courts are still in English. Several other languages are spoken widely but English is the main langiage in the bigger cities.

Do you find you're still managing day to day in english or do you find yourself picking up Malay or other local languages? I've often thought about the potential of moving abroad, but I am generally terrible at learning new languages.

I'm not the OP but I might be able to have some insights as I've lived in a country with a language I don't speak and that's terribly hard to learn (btw Malay is considered one of the easiest languages, many similarities with English as well).
As an obvious foreigner (westerner in Asia) people will usually approach you in English. In many cities people will at least master English to some degree and as a foreigner you might wanna hang our with expats a lot as well.

In my own case I did indeed end up making friends with expats mostly as with Vietnamese I struggled to get deep conversations (made a few Viet friends tho) plus I just ended up meeting mostly foreigners through work, housing situation etc. However I also picked up quite a bit of the local language, but mostly limited to simple things like ordering food. However upon a longer stay - I was there for 5 months only - I'd have put more effort in actively studying the language.

I'm not sure what countries you consider to move to tho. Eg within Europe language barrier will be much less of an issue.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: moonella on April 09, 2018, 09:36:34 AM
Holyoak,

We plan to move to either Spain or Portugal in the next 2 to 3 years, so while I cannot give you exact answers to your questions, I can pass along the information I found researching in preparation of our move.
The cost of living for your targeted location can be found at numbeo.
Generally speaking, a budget of $3500/mo will provide a good standard of living in Spain for a couple. That amount includes health insurance as well. Private health insurance for a couple will be no more than $3000/year.
Both Spain and Portugal have a relatively generous immigration policy for retirees - Spain has a so called non-lucrative visa - you first obtain a one  year visa, which can be renewed until you reach 5 years of residence in Spain. At that point, you become permanent resident. The process is long and requires a lot of documentation. Two of the most important things that you need to prove are: financial resources that will allow you to support yourself and your family for the duration of your stay (this should not be a problem for one who reached FI); and proof if medical insurance.
A car may not always be necessary - it depends which area you are targeting, how close you are to shops, etc, and more importantly, lifestyle. You have a lot of options - you can design your lifestyle based on your interests and more importantly, based on your budget.
I hope this answers some of your questions.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Letj on April 09, 2018, 07:45:06 PM
Posting to follow.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: imolina on April 09, 2018, 09:01:27 PM
Holyoak,

We plan to move to either Spain or Portugal in the next 2 to 3 years, so while I cannot give you exact answers to your questions, I can pass along the information I found researching in preparation of our move.
The cost of living for your targeted location can be found at numbeo.
Generally speaking, a budget of $3500/mo will provide a good standard of living in Spain for a couple. That amount includes health insurance as well. Private health insurance for a couple will be no more than $3000/year.
Both Spain and Portugal have a relatively generous immigration policy for retirees - Spain has a so called non-lucrative visa - you first obtain a one  year visa, which can be renewed until you reach 5 years of residence in Spain. At that point, you become permanent resident. The process is long and requires a lot of documentation. Two of the most important things that you need to prove are: financial resources that will allow you to support yourself and your family for the duration of your stay (this should not be a problem for one who reached FI); and proof if medical insurance.
A car may not always be necessary - it depends which area you are targeting, how close you are to shops, etc, and more importantly, lifestyle. You have a lot of options - you can design your lifestyle based on your interests and more importantly, based on your budget.
I hope this answers some of your questions.

I was looking at Spain too, but if you live more than 180 days you have to pay taxes on your worldwide income and from I read the tax is higher than USA.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Kyle B on April 09, 2018, 09:39:21 PM
Thanks so much for your awesome post. Malaysia had not occurred to me. That English is so widely spoken moves it to the top of the list for me.

Thailand
Absolutely a great place. But better for a visit than too live. It is just too wild and too much partying. And it is not a place to live if you are married.

I'm not married, but the craziness of Bangkok/Pattaya won't work for me.

Did you get to visit Chiang Mai? I get the impression it's less nutty there.

Thanks again...following with great interest.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on April 10, 2018, 03:47:08 AM
Holyoak,

We plan to move to either Spain or Portugal in the next 2 to 3 years, so while I cannot give you exact answers to your questions, I can pass along the information I found researching in preparation of our move.
The cost of living for your targeted location can be found at numbeo.
Generally speaking, a budget of $3500/mo will provide a good standard of living in Spain for a couple. That amount includes health insurance as well. Private health insurance for a couple will be no more than $3000/year.
Both Spain and Portugal have a relatively generous immigration policy for retirees - Spain has a so called non-lucrative visa - you first obtain a one  year visa, which can be renewed until you reach 5 years of residence in Spain. At that point, you become permanent resident. The process is long and requires a lot of documentation. Two of the most important things that you need to prove are: financial resources that will allow you to support yourself and your family for the duration of your stay (this should not be a problem for one who reached FI); and proof if medical insurance.
A car may not always be necessary - it depends which area you are targeting, how close you are to shops, etc, and more importantly, lifestyle. You have a lot of options - you can design your lifestyle based on your interests and more importantly, based on your budget.
I hope this answers some of your questions.

I was looking at Spain too, but if you live more than 180 days you have to pay taxes on your worldwide income and from I read the tax is higher than USA.

This is my concern, the taxes. You have to stay 180 days for the visa.  They want your tax money!
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on April 10, 2018, 03:48:50 AM
This is great OP! Give us more survival tips!
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: moonella on April 10, 2018, 05:01:55 AM
Wine you won't have any earned income, there won't be any taxes to pay. Spain also distinguishes between a resident for tax purposes = you have to spend at least 6 months in Spain, and a resident in general. The 3 months is the amount of time Americans can spend in Spain without a visa. In theory one can spend 5 and a half months in Spain and the rest traveling and thus not be subject to Spanish taxes. After all, isn't that one of the reasons one would want to move to Spain, so they can travel more cheaply throughout Europe?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: texxan1 on April 10, 2018, 09:56:36 AM
Definitely following this one.

I moved to Chiang Mai , Thailand at the beginning of 2018 and loving it so far..

My bills are
$350 apartment
$25 electric
20 phone

food is whatever you want, being single I don't spend much unless I'm on a date with a nice thai lady.. I may spend 20 bucks on a nice meal for two at a western restruant.

We on a few days trip to central Thailand to do some fishing, and then to the beach for a few days in Phuket.... What you spend is up to you

I have a motorbike for transport, so its really cheap.

I am still learning the language, but everyone is nice and friendly....

its interesting and I will keep after it for atleast another year.. I basically moved there as I am 3 years from Fire ( at 50yo) so I could see if its a place I would like to think about retiring.... I have a plan to spend 5 months in asia a year, and the rest in the states for summer fishing season.

A lot of easy possibilities in Asia and ive met many foreigners who do the same and love it

Tex
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: texxan1 on April 10, 2018, 09:58:21 AM
Kyle,

Chiang Mai is pretty chill..... some busy parts of town and lots of things to do, and the bars close at midnight, so no staying out partying all night unless you fit in to a certain crowd that has the late night secret places scoped out.

Thanks so much for your awesome post. Malaysia had not occurred to me. That English is so widely spoken moves it to the top of the list for me.

Thailand
Absolutely a great place. But better for a visit than too live. It is just too wild and too much partying. And it is not a place to live if you are married.

I'm not married, but the craziness of Bangkok/Pattaya won't work for me.

Did you get to visit Chiang Mai? I get the impression it's less nutty there.

Thanks again...following with great interest.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Kyle B on April 10, 2018, 11:28:00 AM
Kyle,

Chiang Mai is pretty chill..... some busy parts of town and lots of things to do, and the bars close at midnight, so no staying out partying all night unless you fit in to a certain crowd that has the late night secret places scoped out.


That's great to know. It's heartening that you're loving it.  Some of the youtubes about Chiang Mai make it look like it's all about millenials trying to become Instagram micro-celebs (while the Pattaya channels make the place look like Disneyland for perverted 70-something alcoholics.)

Is it hard to make (non-sexual) friends in places like Chiang Mai? I have a theory that expat Americans might almost be friendlier to other Americans when abroad than they are when they're back home in America...true or false?

(Maybe Malacca could weigh in on how hard it is to meet people abroad? Though since he's travelling with family that's probably a lower priority.)


its interesting and I will keep after it for atleast another year.. I basically moved there as I am 3 years from Fire ( at 50yo) so I could see if its a place I would like to think about retiring.... I have a plan to spend 5 months in asia a year, and the rest in the states for summer fishing season.

A lot of easy possibilities in Asia and ive met many foreigners who do the same and love it

This is a big part of my interest -- I want to start 'auditioning' places in the U.S. and overseas and see which ones I like. And the idea of combining global snowbirding with slow travel makes huge sense to me. Especially as it could easily combine slashed expenses with an improved standard of living.

Another big pull is cheap health insurance in countries with great medical care. I picture the U.S. health system as a giant monster that our elected officials are willingly feeding us to.

(It seems like 50% of MMM case studies have a paragraph like "I'm rich, unless the ACA changes. Then I'll go back to part-time.")

I take it you own or rent in the U.S. and are planning on keeping that place indefinitely?  I've rented for years in a HCOL area, which is making less sense at this point in my life.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: aspiringnomad on April 11, 2018, 09:32:24 PM
Posting mostly to follow. We're carefully planning an exit to Portugal. Looks like she'll move there late next year and I'll follow in early 2020.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: freedomislife on April 12, 2018, 07:30:26 AM
Definitely following this one.

I moved to Chiang Mai , Thailand at the beginning of 2018 and loving it so far..

My bills are
$350 apartment
$25 electric
20 phone

food is whatever you want, being single I don't spend much unless I'm on a date with a nice thai lady.. I may spend 20 bucks on a nice meal for two at a western restruant.

We on a few days trip to central Thailand to do some fishing, and then to the beach for a few days in Phuket.... What you spend is up to you

I have a motorbike for transport, so its really cheap.

I am still learning the language, but everyone is nice and friendly....

its interesting and I will keep after it for atleast another year.. I basically moved there as I am 3 years from Fire ( at 50yo) so I could see if its a place I would like to think about retiring.... I have a plan to spend 5 months in asia a year, and the rest in the states for summer fishing season.

A lot of easy possibilities in Asia and ive met many foreigners who do the same and love it

Tex

What NW do you reckon is enough to retire comfortably in Thailand (Chiang Mai) in late 20s/early 30s?

Assuming Single + no kids.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: cap396 on April 14, 2018, 04:34:57 PM
Great post Malacca.   My wife and I are going to FIRE this summer and travel the world for awhile. 

If you don't mind sharing, what company do you use for your international health insurance policy?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on April 14, 2018, 06:35:53 PM
Posting mostly to follow. We're carefully planning an exit to Portugal. Looks like she'll move there late next year and I'll follow in early 2020.

How will you handle the tax situation?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: aspiringnomad on April 14, 2018, 08:48:31 PM
Posting mostly to follow. We're carefully planning an exit to Portugal. Looks like she'll move there late next year and I'll follow in early 2020.

How will you handle the tax situation?

In what sense? Portugal has a one-time 10-year "non-habitual resident" scheme that we plan to apply for if it's still around. Assuming no earned income in Portugal, we'd pay tax in the US on Roth ladder conversions (living off freed up home equity when we sell our place). Even if we had to pay Portuguese taxes, we'd apply any amount paid as a credit to US taxes, so the net effect should be zero. If the taxation situation changes between now and then so that it's really unfavorable to us, we'll plan to spend less than 183 days in any one country, and just pay taxes in the US as we would had we stayed there.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: aspiringnomad on April 14, 2018, 08:51:30 PM
Sorry, I should add that the 10-year scheme is plenty of time for us since we plan to land elsewhere longer-term. Actually, our initial plan was to move every six months, but then decided we really love Portugal and so are now planning to make that our home base during this period of slow travel. The tax scheme helped a bit with that decision.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: moonella on April 15, 2018, 04:43:24 AM
Aspiringnomad, this is exactly our strategy, including utilizing the 10 year of favorable tax treatment in Portugal to convert IRA's into ROTH IRA's. Great minds think alike!
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: aspiringnomad on April 15, 2018, 11:02:30 AM
Of potential interest to folks on this thread, I just discovered that France changed its wealth tax so that it applies only to global property in excess of 1.3M euros, rather than any net worth in excess of that amount as it did previously. This took effect at the beginning of this year. This is good news for us, as living for a while in southern France is also a possibility.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: limeandpepper on April 15, 2018, 12:44:56 PM
Hey OP, glad you're enjoying my country. I had an inkling from your username. ;)

Do you find you're still managing day to day in english or do you find yourself picking up Malay or other local languages? I've often thought about the potential of moving abroad, but I am generally terrible at learning new languages.

Not the OP but when I lived in Malaysia, I didn't use Malay that much in daily life. With Malays, Chinese and Indians in Malaysia, a knowledge of an additional language such as Malay, Mandarin, or Tamil will deepen and broaden your experience, but if you don't - you should be fine, though it could get tricky sometimes if you get off the beaten track I guess, but possibly a translation app can help with that.

Thailand
Absolutely a great place. But better for a visit than too live. It is just too wild and too much partying. And it is not a place to live if you are married.

My boyfriend and I are not wild partying types at all and loved Thailand. I think it is pretty easy to avoid the sordid side if that's not your scene. We were in Bangkok for about a month and only had one or two alcoholic drinks each the entire time. And Northern Thailand is pretty chilled, was also there for a month and same story. We basically just eat, explore, sleep. No partying... well, unless you count the time we had a cocktail with our dinner while listening to live music and patting cats... ;)
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: malacca on April 21, 2018, 10:52:16 AM
If anyone wants global health insurance just PM me. Trust me, health care outside the US is not a big issue!

Looks like this topic has some interest.

Expat Culture:
Expat culture is somewhat like RV culture. I spent a year living in an RV with wife and 2 kids. We found the RV culture to be fantastic. Basically you meet people and make friends with people you may never had associated with in your "regular" life. And you end up being closer and make friends quicker.

Keep in mind our social structure is heavily defined by where we work, live and possibly church.

Expat culture is similar. You end up meeting other expats - from around the world - because you share a similar experience. Even the fellow Americans I have befriended abroad are probably not the ones I would have stateside. Most of my expat friends are Europeans or other colonials but also include Japanese and Koreans because of my background and language skills.

Of course I have great local friends in the countries I have lived in. But as Americans you will find we are higher on the outgoing / friendly list than the rest of the world. Our major sperm donor, the Brits, are high on the list of outgoing and friendly also as well as Aussies and Kiwis. But most expats come out of their shells when they move abroad sooner or later.

Taxes:
Well, Americans are screwed. We are the only major nation that taxes their citizens abroad. But we do have an exclusion - about $110,000 per year for FOREIGN earned income. The two key words here are FOREIGN and EARNED. Many tax advisors have failed in this aspect. It means your foreign investments are NOT excluded from taxation - only earned income.

But any income within the US is not excluded. But for most FIREs our tax bill will be minimal. Once you stop working that property income comes in at a very low tax rate with all of the exclusions.

But some countries will tax you on your worldwide income - as Spain does. I don't know the details but most people I know are not effected by this too much as you can exclude what you paid in another country (no double taxation). OK, if you are very wealthy then you should only spend 179 days in Spain. Or if you about to inherent some dough then get out of Spain for 1/2 of the year.

Malaysia does not tax you on non-Malaysian income. I know some non-Americans who live in Malaysia and work out of Hong Kong and pay zero tax anywhere. Sweet dreams but not for Americans.

Visas:
Many countries have retirement or similar visa schemes. In general you have to show that you have money to support yourself and you are not a bad person. Always get a criminal background check from your local police or state before you leave as it is usually needed.

Where?
Gosh, that is a hard one. There are many great places on earth - all of them ice cream - just different flavors. Spain and Portugal are time tested. Malaysia also. Thailand is a fantastic place but harder over the long term for most. Sri Lanka is up and coming. There are some Eastern European countries that are attracting people as well. South America is wide open. Some people end up in the Philippines (usually ex-military that spent time there). Great place if all you have to live on is Social Security. Heck, they even have an SS office there.

What I recommend is picking three places and spending one year in each place. Then you will know what you actually want and the best place for you (may not be one of the three!).

Meeting People:
Some people asked about this. There are social organizations like Internations. And there are American or European expat groups everywhere. I meet a lot of people through golf. As I have young kids I meet people through them and their school. Some people met at language classes. I meet a lot of people at our pool. Every week there are book exchanges, restaurant outings, exercise fad of the week meetings, etc.

The hardest thing about being American and living abroad is: Trump.





Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: aspiringnomad on April 21, 2018, 03:26:17 PM
@malacca I'd definitely be interested in hearing more about global health insurance. Happy to discuss over PM if you're not comfortable discussing here, but I imagine it'll be of interest to a lot of people.

Our situation might be a little different than most American expats in that my wife is a citizen of multiple countries that have universal healthcare and I'm a permanent resident of one. We're thinking of supplementing that with travel insurance, but are open to other ideas and opinions.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: malacca on April 21, 2018, 07:24:33 PM
@aspiringnomad

We also have universal coverage in one country. Good to fall back on but I find coverage kind of weak in some areas.

There are two types of internal insurance: Global health Insurance and Travel Health Insurance.

Global Health Insurance:
This is a typical health insurance policy. Covers pretty much anything and is renewable yearly. It excludes most preexisting conditions at time of purchase but once anything that happens after you have the policy is covered. And when you renew the policy those conditions are covered.

Mine has a $1000 deductible with $5 million coverage. We paid $2300 for a family of 4.

Travel Health Insurance:
The difference is that this is not guaranteed renewal and any illness you have for the year will not be covered when you renew (it will be a preexisting condition). Overall policy and coverage is not as robust as Global health Insurance. Usually a bit cheaper.

Travel Insurance:
Typically to cover trip cancellation and repatriation is seriously ill or dead. Some will have some limited health coverage. These are not health coverage even if they are marketed at such.

If I was actually living in a country with universal I would purchase a local policy that provides for the gaps in coverage. They are pretty cheap.

But we are not and we travel and move around a lot. So I just bought the global policy.

I looked at the Travel Health Insurance but found the price difference to be minimal. It wasn't worth the financial risk of going into health care bankruptcy.

Also, depending on your state and current income levels you could qualify for ACA. Seems like ACA will be around for a while as all of the morons who wanted to kill it are quitting congress.

You can use ACA as a fallback if you get seriously ill.



Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on April 22, 2018, 06:46:18 AM
What NW do you reckon is enough to retire comfortably in Thailand (Chiang Mai) in late 20s/early 30s?

Assuming Single + no kids.

You can do it on $300k as long as you don't eat a lot of western food and drink alcohol.

$1k/month you will be able to live comfortably and still save enough money for a flight or two back home annually if you need to.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: auntie_betty on April 22, 2018, 07:24:09 AM

Quote
I only have experience living in Germany for a few years, and have always thought Northern Spain looks like a beautiful place to retire. 

Northern Spain is indeed beautiful - we had two weeks there last summer and are having three weeks there this summer. However, winters in Northern Spain can be brutal - check out the climate for any chosen areas. Especially inland, we were amazed by the number of snow poles making the sides of roads, but having researched it they are needed. A lot of rain on the coast.

We're in Almeria, South East Spain, absolutely beautiful and a lovely 72 degrees today. But we have brutal summers - weeks of over 100 degrees and not much cooler at night, with tortuously high humidity. Heading east to Sevilla and Cordoba, they regularly reach 120 degrees.

But I wouldn't want to live anywhere else :)
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: aspiringnomad on April 23, 2018, 06:39:27 PM
@aspiringnomad

We also have universal coverage in one country. Good to fall back on but I find coverage kind of weak in some areas.

There are two types of internal insurance: Global health Insurance and Travel Health Insurance.

Global Health Insurance:
This is a typical health insurance policy. Covers pretty much anything and is renewable yearly. It excludes most preexisting conditions at time of purchase but once anything that happens after you have the policy is covered. And when you renew the policy those conditions are covered.

Mine has a $1000 deductible with $5 million coverage. We paid $2300 for a family of 4.

Travel Health Insurance:
The difference is that this is not guaranteed renewal and any illness you have for the year will not be covered when you renew (it will be a preexisting condition). Overall policy and coverage is not as robust as Global health Insurance. Usually a bit cheaper.

Travel Insurance:
Typically to cover trip cancellation and repatriation is seriously ill or dead. Some will have some limited health coverage. These are not health coverage even if they are marketed at such.

If I was actually living in a country with universal I would purchase a local policy that provides for the gaps in coverage. They are pretty cheap.

But we are not and we travel and move around a lot. So I just bought the global policy.

I looked at the Travel Health Insurance but found the price difference to be minimal. It wasn't worth the financial risk of going into health care bankruptcy.

Also, depending on your state and current income levels you could qualify for ACA. Seems like ACA will be around for a while as all of the morons who wanted to kill it are quitting congress.

You can use ACA as a fallback if you get seriously ill.

Thanks for that info! I'll look into quotes for Global Health Insurance. Yours seems quite reasonable for a family of 4.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: expatartist on April 23, 2018, 07:17:56 PM
Good breakdown of the various insurance options, OP. My current employer offers lifetime worldwide coverage at a reasonable rate even after we leave the company, but the amounts aren't terribly high. Need to look into this more.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: JLE1990 on April 24, 2018, 05:17:35 PM
@malacca What about teaching children abroad? Do they have online schooling? How have you worked that out?

This sounds so amazing. ... sigh...
Can't wait to do it.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on April 24, 2018, 08:52:09 PM
Malacca, can someone who is younger <35 easily get visa's to stay in some of these places for a year?

I'm finding Europe to be the tough one to crack, sounds like Thailand 60 days + 30 day extension is the easiest, and Philippines let you stay for 90 days sans visa, Malaysia is also 90 days.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Hirondelle on April 25, 2018, 12:28:08 AM
Malacca, can someone who is younger <35 easily get visa's to stay in some of these places for a year?

I'm finding Europe to be the tough one to crack, sounds like Thailand 60 days + 30 day extension is the easiest, and Philippines let you stay for 90 days sans visa, Malaysia is also 90 days.

For US-citizens Vietnam is also great. They let you get a 1 year visa. Only downside is you have to leave every 3 months, but a 10 min trip to Cambodia will do (or just use it as an excuse to explore one of the neighbouring countries). Plus from whole of SE-Asia I found it the lowest COL. And no religious constraints like in many places in Malaysia, Indonesia or Thailand. Also very easy to pick up a little side gig teaching English there :)
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: koshtra on April 25, 2018, 09:58:46 AM
In late November 2016 I spent a lot of time thinking about South American places: Uruguay, Ecuador, Chile. I think I would have gone for Valdivia in Chile. Still might: temperate rain forests are where I grew up, and I love them. And the national parks in Chile! Las Torres del Paine! It would really be pretty doable.

Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: malacca on May 30, 2018, 10:12:14 AM
You can get a retirement visa for many countries even if you are younger.

For Malaysia applicants under 50 are required to show liquid assets above RM500,000 (about $125K) and a monthly income of over RM10,000 (equivalent to $2500).

Applicants over 50 have to show liquid assets over RM350,000 and a monthly income over RM10,000 (equivalent to $2500).

The income portion has to show money being banked in for three months.

Also need criminal background check from your state police department. The rest is just standard paperwork - passport, pics, etc.

I have helped a bunch of people get a retirement visa for Malaysia. It is pretty strait forward but does take about 5 months. But you can stay in Malaysia while it is being processed.

There are agencies that help with the paperwork and I highly recommend them as you chance of screwing things up is pretty high. They take care of everything and make multiple trips to immigration for you. But choose an honest agency as some will lead you down the wrong road. PM for recommendations.

Spain VS Portugal
I learned a bit more. Many people prefer Portugal over Spain for a few reasons. 1) Portuguese speak English better. 2) More "stuff" is in English - including movies (subtitles instead of dubbed). 3) Cheaper. 4) Easier immigration. 5) Better taxation for Europeans (Sorry, us Americans are screwed wherever we go).

But we will head to Spain. Why? So my kids can learn proper Spanish. My kids edu plan list fluency in English, Mandarin and Spanish.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Linea_Norway on May 30, 2018, 10:46:26 AM
I understand you very well.
Badass!
You need to update the placename in your avatar.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: CheapScholar on May 30, 2018, 06:16:46 PM
You're fucking gangster. 

Look forward to following your adventures.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: malacca on June 01, 2018, 04:39:40 AM
Oh I guess my location was outdated. Fixed now.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: backandforth on June 04, 2018, 11:28:18 AM
Post to follow. I hope we do can that one day!
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on June 04, 2018, 12:44:08 PM
I keep coming back to this thread for motivation =)
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: itchyfeet on June 04, 2018, 01:31:01 PM
Great thread.

We currently live in the Middle East stashing away tax free $$.

FIREing in Dubai is definitely not for everyone, but if you buy an apartment in Dubai you can obtain a residency visa. Given there is zero income tax in Dubai, if you are Fat Fired then having your domicile in Dubai could be very financially sound (not so much for US folk).

Rent yields are quite high, so you could rent out your place for a big chunk of the year while travelling maybe back home even (and esp to escape insane heat in Summer), and live very well in Dubai for a few of the coolers months. The weather is awesome from late Oct to May. Unbearable from July-Sept.

Dubai is very close to Asia, Africa and Europ making it a great base for travellers too.

Cars and fuel are cheap. Off-roading is a popular hobbie, as is hiking in the mountains in the Oman border. There are lots of sports clubs incl lots of water sports but you can participate in most sports you could think of.

Alcohol is really expensive at bars. Ridiculously so. Fast food is cheap, fine dining is really expensive. Lots of international acts come to Dubai or Abu Dhabi (bands, comedy, ballet etc) but tickets can be expensive (def more so than Europe).

You can live in Dubai quite reasonably, but many people choose not to due to the higher disposable income a tax free existence can give.

We won’t stay in Dubai post FIRE, but many do. We have enjoyed living here, and made some amazing friends for life, but miss the colour green a bit too much to really ever think of Dubai as home.

I would also class the property market as rather speculative. I am not sure how sound a long term investment an apartment in Dubai is. Definitely room for debate both ways.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: midcitybeth on June 05, 2018, 01:38:19 PM
Thank you for all the information, I am thinking of my kids future education.  pairing online school with travel and being immersed in another language seems amazing.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: letsdoit on June 11, 2018, 09:33:02 AM
we've thought about doing this.
iget the part about the global health insurance  .  we're americans, what coverage should we get while returning to USA to visit?  I think folks from other countries usually get the most expensive/extensive travel insurance they can find for USA trips
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: cap396 on June 11, 2018, 03:43:37 PM
we've thought about doing this.
iget the part about the global health insurance  .  we're americans, what coverage should we get while returning to USA to visit?  I think folks from other countries usually get the most expensive/extensive travel insurance they can find for USA trips

Some international insurance companies, such as IMG, offer two types of plans, one that excludes the US and a few other countries, and one that covers everywhere including the US.  The one that excludes the US is about 20% less expensive than the worldwide plan.  The catch is that you can't be in the US for more than six months.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: malacca on June 13, 2018, 08:26:27 AM
Yes, IMG offers a "worldwide" plan that covers you for limited visits to the USA (with higher deductibles / copays). But it is NOT a replacement for US health insurance - don't be fooled.

But you have to know what you are doing with IMG and others. They are not under the ACA rules and "cancel" policies when you need it the most. The US government, especially the current administration, isn't there to help you with your insurance problems.

I still hear people against the ACA yet they already forgot what it was like before it. Insurers had teams of people whose job it was to find any reason to cancel the policy of people with an expensive illnesses.

When I first went abroad as a student I had an internationl policy from Blue Cross / Shield. When I had medical treatment I was required to pay for it myself and then submit it for reimbursement. 90% of claims were denied. They just buried you in paperwork. "Oh, you need blah, blah form signed from the doctor." You get it and then there is a new requirement.

The administration office was in Hong Kong. I had just got a job there (early 90s) and so I rolled over to their office unannounced. Rows of Hong Kong staff (cheap denial letter writers) and two American guys. The Americans guys gave me some bull shit about it had been over 90 days so it is too late, blah, blah. I didn't say a word - I just started smashing shit in the office and kicking shit over. They wrote me a check in a hurry :)


Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: dude on June 13, 2018, 08:47:30 AM
The way things are going here in the U.S. I'm inclined to take a similar path, perhaps to Costa Rica. We'll see come retirement time (11 months for me).
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: IndyPendent on June 14, 2018, 09:22:38 AM
Posting to follow.

So if I, as an American, moved to Spain, wouldn’t I have my foreign tax paid to Spain offset but the foreign income tax credit? Or would I be double taxed? Does that apply to investment earnings or just normal income?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: letsdoit on June 14, 2018, 11:21:03 AM
i wondered the same re: taxes.

if you only had capital gains and the like from investments, the US would tax you on that and Spain would tax you on nothing (bc you're not working in spain).  right?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: letsdoit on June 14, 2018, 11:23:15 AM
bc of the timing of life and kids, i was thinking of taking a sabbatical abroad,  i.e., retiring for 2 years and then (somewhat painfully) reconstructing life in the US to work for another 10 years.
is anyone thinking of doing this or has done it?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Hirondelle on June 14, 2018, 01:26:27 PM
bc of the timing of life and kids, i was thinking of taking a sabbatical abroad,  i.e., retiring for 2 years and then (somewhat painfully) reconstructing life in the US to work for another 10 years.
is anyone thinking of doing this or has done it?

What would your exact plans look like? I did take a gap year (so right after uni, not in the midst of my working career) but am planning to do a similar 6 month - 1 year gap in another couple of years. Spending some time abroad doesn't have to be bad for your CV/employability. Seeing the world is generally appreciated by employers, especially if you've done something useful in addition to just roaming around (volunteering, learning a language etc.). Plus it could be beneficial for your FI journey if you spend your time in a LCOL area or volunteering in exchange for accomodation/food - you can just let the stash grow while living of almost no money.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Uturn on June 14, 2018, 08:23:41 PM
too many adult beverages tonight to absorb all of this thread.  PTF
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: letsdoit on June 15, 2018, 09:49:16 AM
bc of the timing of life and kids, i was thinking of taking a sabbatical abroad,  i.e., retiring for 2 years and then (somewhat painfully) reconstructing life in the US to work for another 10 years.
is anyone thinking of doing this or has done it?

What would your exact plans look like? I did take a gap year (so right after uni, not in the midst of my working career) but am planning to do a similar 6 month - 1 year gap in another couple of years. Spending some time abroad doesn't have to be bad for your CV/employability. Seeing the world is generally appreciated by employers, especially if you've done something useful in addition to just roaming around (volunteering, learning a language etc.). Plus it could be beneficial for your FI journey if you spend your time in a LCOL area or volunteering in exchange for accomodation/food - you can just let the stash grow while living of almost no money.

my wife and I are psychotherapists.  the travel itself would be relatively easy.  probably 2 years . the normal possibilities about where to live/slowly travel.   we would have to make sure our licenses did not expire, and then would have to rebuild a life here, starting a business, finding a place to live.  trying to get a good middle school, a hard task in the US, for the little one
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: letsdoit on June 15, 2018, 12:50:51 PM
in our case the lost wages and the opportunity cost on them is probably 200k . .  ..
it would be so much more efficient to be able to fully retire before travelling , but oh well
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: auntie_betty on June 16, 2018, 03:42:54 PM
i wondered the same re: taxes.

if you only had capital gains and the like from investments, the US would tax you on that and Spain would tax you on nothing (bc you're not working in spain).  right?

If you are resident in Spain for 183 days of the year you are liable to pay income tax on all your earnings, 'earned' or 'unearned'(after an allowance that varies by region/which tax advisor you go to etc.). Don't know what the implications are for US citizens though.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Trifle on June 17, 2018, 02:38:23 AM
Great thread @malacca!  Posting to follow.  I am FIREing next year and would love to go on walkabout for at least a year.  Malaysia was never on my radar screen but now I see it should be. 
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: malacca on June 25, 2018, 07:02:55 AM
I like the term "Walkabout"!

Just took my kids through Cambodia.

** For people thinking of doping this, keep in mind that your home may provide a good part of the income needed. Mine is paid off of course. I rent it fully furnished on a month to month basis. I get mainly business people relocating or people between houses / building new, etc. My house clears $2300 a month after taxes, whatnot.

On a basic but not down and out budget, $2300 is enough for a couple in SE Asia. I assume also in S America.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Reader on September 22, 2018, 09:34:50 AM
posting to follow.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: moresprinkles on September 25, 2018, 12:55:55 PM
Yes, IMG offers a "worldwide" plan that covers you for limited visits to the USA (with higher deductibles / copays). But it is NOT a replacement for US health insurance - don't be fooled.

But you have to know what you are doing with IMG and others. They are not under the ACA rules and "cancel" policies when you need it the most. The US government, especially the current administration, isn't there to help you with your insurance problems.

I still hear people against the ACA yet they already forgot what it was like before it. Insurers had teams of people whose job it was to find any reason to cancel the policy of people with an expensive illnesses.

When I first went abroad as a student I had an internationl policy from Blue Cross / Shield. When I had medical treatment I was required to pay for it myself and then submit it for reimbursement. 90% of claims were denied. They just buried you in paperwork. "Oh, you need blah, blah form signed from the doctor." You get it and then there is a new requirement.

The administration office was in Hong Kong. I had just got a job there (early 90s) and so I rolled over to their office unannounced. Rows of Hong Kong staff (cheap denial letter writers) and two American guys. The Americans guys gave me some bull shit about it had been over 90 days so it is too late, blah, blah. I didn't say a word - I just started smashing shit in the office and kicking shit over. They wrote me a check in a hurry :)

I almost fell on the floor laughing at this post. Thanks!
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Nancy on September 27, 2018, 05:00:38 AM
Posting mostly to follow. We're carefully planning an exit to Portugal. Looks like she'll move there late next year and I'll follow in early 2020.

How will you handle the tax situation?

In what sense? Portugal has a one-time 10-year "non-habitual resident" scheme that we plan to apply for if it's still around. Assuming no earned income in Portugal, we'd pay tax in the US on Roth ladder conversions (living off freed up home equity when we sell our place). Even if we had to pay Portuguese taxes, we'd apply any amount paid as a credit to US taxes, so the net effect should be zero. If the taxation situation changes between now and then so that it's really unfavorable to us, we'll plan to spend less than 183 days in any one country, and just pay taxes in the US as we would had we stayed there.

From everything I've been able to read, capital gains on investments are not excluded as part of the 10-year NHR resident scheme, and the capital gains tax is a flat 28%. Have you found information to the contrary? Living in Portugal has been my plan too, so I'm keenly interested.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: letsdoit on September 27, 2018, 09:23:50 AM
do you have EU visa/passport ?
for NHR it looks like you have to spend more than 183 days per year, if you were on regualr schengen visa , you'd have to time to time 3 trips in/out just right to amass that many days
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: FamilyGuy on October 10, 2018, 09:33:13 PM
Very useful thread for us. We are looking same path in future. Will be settled abroad in India.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Freedomin5 on October 11, 2018, 03:51:57 AM
bc of the timing of life and kids, i was thinking of taking a sabbatical abroad,  i.e., retiring for 2 years and then (somewhat painfully) reconstructing life in the US to work for another 10 years.
is anyone thinking of doing this or has done it?

What would your exact plans look like? I did take a gap year (so right after uni, not in the midst of my working career) but am planning to do a similar 6 month - 1 year gap in another couple of years. Spending some time abroad doesn't have to be bad for your CV/employability. Seeing the world is generally appreciated by employers, especially if you've done something useful in addition to just roaming around (volunteering, learning a language etc.). Plus it could be beneficial for your FI journey if you spend your time in a LCOL area or volunteering in exchange for accomodation/food - you can just let the stash grow while living of almost no money.

my wife and I are psychotherapists.  the travel itself would be relatively easy.  probably 2 years . the normal possibilities about where to live/slowly travel.   we would have to make sure our licenses did not expire, and then would have to rebuild a life here, starting a business, finding a place to live.  trying to get a good middle school, a hard task in the US, for the little one

@letsdoit You could also use something like icouch.me to offer e-therapy. Thst will prevent the gap in your CV and boost income for the two years you’re abroad. Also, in some countries there is a huge demand for US licensed psychotherapists. Here in China, in a major city like Beijing or Shanghai, you can make around USD $200K - $250K (gross income) if you’re willing to work full time and you are good at your job.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: malacca on October 11, 2018, 07:52:30 AM
Well, now is a great time to move abroad. Politics suck at home. The dollar is strong. Life is short.


We are in Taiwan now for a while. See my other post about Taiwan.

As some people have mentioned, a good way to move towards FIRE is to get an Expat job and keep all of the benefits. As an Expat you generally get a good housing, travel and car allowance.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: aspiringnomad on October 11, 2018, 07:05:40 PM
do you have EU visa/passport ?
for NHR it looks like you have to spend more than 183 days per year, if you were on regualr schengen visa , you'd have to time to time 3 trips in/out just right to amass that many days

Yep, pretty lucky that my wife is a citizen of one EU country (and one soon to be former EU country).
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: aspiringnomad on October 11, 2018, 07:10:23 PM
Posting mostly to follow. We're carefully planning an exit to Portugal. Looks like she'll move there late next year and I'll follow in early 2020.

How will you handle the tax situation?

In what sense? Portugal has a one-time 10-year "non-habitual resident" scheme that we plan to apply for if it's still around. Assuming no earned income in Portugal, we'd pay tax in the US on Roth ladder conversions (living off freed up home equity when we sell our place). Even if we had to pay Portuguese taxes, we'd apply any amount paid as a credit to US taxes, so the net effect should be zero. If the taxation situation changes between now and then so that it's really unfavorable to us, we'll plan to spend less than 183 days in any one country, and just pay taxes in the US as we would had we stayed there.

From everything I've been able to read, capital gains on investments are not excluded as part of the 10-year NHR resident scheme, and the capital gains tax is a flat 28%. Have you found information to the contrary? Living in Portugal has been my plan too, so I'm keenly interested.

I haven't found anything to the contrary. To be honest, haven't looked into it in awhile, though there was a time when I was studying Portuguese tax law very carefully. Will have to do a refresher soon.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Freedomin5 on October 11, 2018, 09:20:39 PM
Well, now is a great time to move abroad. Politics suck at home. The dollar is strong. Life is short.


We are in Taiwan now for a while. See my other post about Taiwan.

As some people have mentioned, a good way to move towards FIRE is to get an Expat job and keep all of the benefits. As an Expat you generally get a good housing, travel and car allowance.

Not to mention comprehensive health global health insurance
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: letsdoit on October 12, 2018, 11:10:37 AM
bc of the timing of life and kids, i was thinking of taking a sabbatical abroad,  i.e., retiring for 2 years and then (somewhat painfully) reconstructing life in the US to work for another 10 years.
is anyone thinking of doing this or has done it?

What would your exact plans look like? I did take a gap year (so right after uni, not in the midst of my working career) but am planning to do a similar 6 month - 1 year gap in another couple of years. Spending some time abroad doesn't have to be bad for your CV/employability. Seeing the world is generally appreciated by employers, especially if you've done something useful in addition to just roaming around (volunteering, learning a language etc.). Plus it could be beneficial for your FI journey if you spend your time in a LCOL area or volunteering in exchange for accomodation/food - you can just let the stash grow while living of almost no money.

my wife and I are psychotherapists.  the travel itself would be relatively easy.  probably 2 years . the normal possibilities about where to live/slowly travel.   we would have to make sure our licenses did not expire, and then would have to rebuild a life here, starting a business, finding a place to live.  trying to get a good middle school, a hard task in the US, for the little one

@letsdoit You could also use something like icouch.me to offer e-therapy. Thst will prevent the gap in your CV and boost income for the two years you’re abroad. Also, in some countries there is a huge demand for US licensed psychotherapists. Here in China, in a major city like Beijing or Shanghai, you can make around USD $200K - $250K (gross income) if you’re willing to work full time and you are good at your job.

thanks,
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: malacca on November 02, 2018, 05:25:10 AM
Anyone out there in Spain now?

Taiwan is OK but I need a change. I want to head to Spain in the next few months on a scouting mission (housing, school for kids, quality of wine, etc.)

Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: letsdoit on November 02, 2018, 09:23:16 AM
Anyone out there in Spain now?

Taiwan is OK but I need a change. I want to head to Spain in the next few months on a scouting mission (housing, school for kids, quality of wine, etc.)

i've never been to south of spain but my friend lived in las afueras de granada, and loved it
i dont know what town she was in
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: auntie_betty on November 03, 2018, 01:10:24 PM
I'm in Eastern Andalucia.

We have housing, schools and good wine :). Very good wine actually at less than €4 a bottle.

Seriously - housing very good value, particularly if long-term renting off the immediate coast. Schools I have no real knowledge off except the younger the child the quicker they integrate, and some senior schools teach solely in English as it's considered so important (a good level of English is required for all uni courses I believe).

Climate is EXTREMELY hot in summer but absolutely gorgeous at this time of year and spring. Winters vary from being a little cold (in a very relative kind of way!) to gloriously sunny and warm.

Oh, and did I mention the wine???????
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Padonak on November 03, 2018, 01:40:49 PM
I'm in Eastern Andalucia.

We have housing, schools and good wine :). Very good wine actually at less than €4 a bottle.

Seriously - housing very good value, particularly if long-term renting off the immediate coast. Schools I have no real knowledge off except the younger the child the quicker they integrate, and some senior schools teach solely in English as it's considered so important (a good level of English is required for all uni courses I believe).

Climate is EXTREMELY hot in summer but absolutely gorgeous at this time of year and spring and autumns vary from being a little cold (in a very relative kind of way!) to gloriously sunny and warm.

Oh, and did I mention the wine???????

That's pretty cool. What cities/towns would you recommend? What's a resonable monthly budget for a single person?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: auntie_betty on November 04, 2018, 02:04:26 AM
I'm in Eastern Andalucia.

We have housing, schools and good wine :). Very good wine actually at less than €4 a bottle.

Seriously - housing very good value, particularly if long-term renting off the immediate coast. Schools I have no real knowledge off except the younger the child the quicker they integrate, and some senior schools teach solely in English as it's considered so important (a good level of English is required for all uni courses I believe).

Climate is EXTREMELY hot in summer but absolutely gorgeous at this time of year and spring and autumns vary from being a little cold (in a very relative kind of way!) to gloriously sunny and warm.

Oh, and did I mention the wine???????

That's pretty cool. What cities/towns would you recommend? What's a resonable monthly budget for a single person?

Have edited my post as the bit about the seasons was goggledygook!

Almeria is where I am and we love it - mountains, sea and desert all within 20 minutes of me. But I'm not near a city and the towns are not large. How big a 'city' are you thinking of?

Places I would recommend:
Cartagena in Murcia. haven't spent much time there but seems quite cosmopolitan, nice port, lot of history.
Malaga. Suffered from a bad reputation as that's the airport the 'beer swilling Brits' and criminals use to get to the Costa del Sol but it's lovely, lots of history and pretty hillside towns around it. However, that whole area is busier than up north.
Cordoba and Seviila (my personal favourite) are fabulous to visit but brutal in summer - well over 110 is normal.
Lovely places like Cadiz on the south coast but can get very windy and gets a lot of rain in winter/spring. Less days of rain than Granada but more of it and it has been known to rain for a week at a time.

In many ways my pick would probably be Granada:
Very pretty, loads of history, beautiful setting at the foot of the Sierra Nevada (so skiing on the doorstep). A proper range of temperatures as well. Personally it's too cold for me in the winter, but it's manageable in summer.

               Jan   Feb   Mar   Apr   May   Jun   Jul   Aug   Sep   Oct   Nov   Dec
High °C   11   12   15   17   22   27   32   32   28   21   15   11
High °F   52   54   59   63   72   81   90   90   82   70   59   52
Low °C   1   2   4   6   9   13   16   16   14   9   5   2
Low °F   34   36   39   43   48   55   61   61   57   48   41   36

https://www.holiday-weather.com/granada/averages/

As to budget - well, where we are we have friends who live, as a couple, on less than €1,000 a month including rent of around €300. They live well enough, eat out once or twice a month etc. They are pretty mustachian in their ways and are just settling down for six months of the year, spending the other six travelling, following a period of five years backpacking (hence the low monthly budget).  That is too frugal for us. We spend over double that with no rent.......... but hey we can afford to so why not?

The country is fabulous with so much to explore. I'm glad we retired when we did (53 for me, 54 for OH) - early, but we have accumulated enough that we can afford to travel a bit without pennypinching (though still looking for good deals!). Off to Malaga this week for a few days and walking this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caminito_del_Rey for the second time. Life is good :)
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Padonak on November 04, 2018, 12:44:39 PM
auntie_betty,

Excellent, thanks for your detailed reply!

Do you speak Spanish? Would you recommend this region to someone who doesn't speak Spanish or only knows a few basic phrases?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: auntie_betty on November 04, 2018, 01:44:51 PM
I speak a little and am trying to improve. In the cities you will find people speak some English, especially younger ones. However, in more rural areas there is little English spoken. I'd recommend learning asap. Oh, and just to add, in rural Eastern Andalusia there is a very strong accent, which doesn't help with understanding it!
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: letsdoit on November 05, 2018, 07:27:24 AM
do you send your kids to public school in andalucia, or private?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Linea_Norway on November 06, 2018, 05:18:14 AM
Well, now is a great time to move abroad. Politics suck at home. The dollar is strong. Life is short.

Can you Americans living abroad use your right to vote and do the rest of the world a favor by making a change?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Linea_Norway on November 06, 2018, 05:21:19 AM
I'm in Eastern Andalucia.

<...>

Climate is EXTREMELY hot in summer but absolutely gorgeous at this time of year and spring. Winters vary from being a little cold (in a very relative kind of way!) to gloriously sunny and warm.

Oh, and did I mention the wine???????

Doesn't the north of Spain have an issue with little drinking water? I've heard from someone who lived there that there were limitations on how long you could/should shower and he had some trouble having his foreign guests to follow up on that.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: letsdoit on November 06, 2018, 11:50:09 AM
Well, now is a great time to move abroad. Politics suck at home. The dollar is strong. Life is short.

Can you Americans living abroad use your right to vote and do the rest of the world a favor by making a change?

agreed, but remember that things are stacked against us, it is not that simple for many people to vote.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: maizefolk on November 06, 2018, 11:57:39 AM
For those of you who are outside the USA, please do keep in mind that the democrats will need to win the popular vote by a margin of ~5.5% in order to have a reasonable chance at actually controlling the house of representatives after the election (see the 6th figure on this page. (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-midterm-election-forecast/house/?ex_cid=rrpromo))

So there is a non-trivia chance that the headlines come Wednesday and how the majority of americans view the rest of the world will be telling opposite stories.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: auntie_betty on November 06, 2018, 03:15:10 PM

[/quote]

Doesn't the north of Spain have an issue with little drinking water? I've heard from someone who lived there that there were limitations on how long you could/should shower and he had some trouble having his foreign guests to follow up on that.
[/quote]

I haven't heard of that and I have travelled in the north of Spain the last two summers. More likely to be an issue in the south where there is little rainfall but no real problems for householders.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Linea_Norway on November 07, 2018, 12:32:19 AM
Well, now is a great time to move abroad. Politics suck at home. The dollar is strong. Life is short.

Can you Americans living abroad use your right to vote and do the rest of the world a favor by making a change?

agreed, but remember that things are stacked against us, it is not that simple for many people to vote.

I know it is difficult. I have an American colleague who cannot vote because it is too complicated for him to register as a voter. While he is a normal person without criminal record and such.

Compared that to me. I am Dutch and am able to vote each time in the Netherlands from abroad. I was some fuss to start with, not not really difficult.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: malacca on November 07, 2018, 08:46:27 AM
Voting for Americans Abroad: It can be done. If you still have a residence in the USA it makes it easier. If not, then you will most likely need to head to an embassy. US Embassies, in general, suck Donkey.

Message to World from Americans: Yes, some of us screwed up and voted for - gosh how to put it - a guy who is something less than stellar (keep in mind we had only two choices and he didn't even win the popular vote). It is a one time mistake (with help from the Russians). It won't happen again, we promise. Don't hold it against Americans - we were duped. Just two more years to go! Unfortunately this election would not allow a change in the Senate (it was very close though). The house of course went to the Dems - even given the assinine redistricting by the Republicans. Again, just two more years to go!

SPAIN: auntie_betty - thanks for the info on Spain. I want to make a scouting visit to Andalucia soon! I am just about settled into Taiwan and will be 'free' soon. As stated in this post, I have two young kids and they are attending a local Taiwan school so the overhead of this and that is quite a lot.

I would like to come for two weeks or so - maybe in December or February. What kind of accommodations are available? I really don't like hotels. I prefer to cook some of my meals and wash my own clothes. And how hard is to rent a vehicle for 2 weeks? A mustachian solution would be great.

When I was in college I spoke basic Mexican. It is somewhere in the back of my brain! Hopefully it will find its way out quickly in Spain. And hopefully I can get rid of the Mexican accent!

What I really need more detail on is the WINE. Of course the 'official' reason for me wanting to move my family to Spain is for my kids to learn Spanish and Spanish culture.

Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: mpvmd on November 10, 2018, 07:44:37 AM
A slightly different perspective, same sentiments overall. I left the US 13 years ago for work and moved to Switzerland - truly a wonderful place to live but certainly not the bargain of Malaysia or Spain/Portugal. Works for me though: safe, reliable, world's best public transport, politically neutral on the world stage, cosmopolitan and yet devoted to its own culture.

Drawbacks: while you can visit for 3 mos at a time, getting work is not easy. Neither is getting a visa, esp for non-Europeans. You basically have to start with a job that will sponsor you, and renew every 5 years.  Get used to registering for everything - your location, your health insurance, your permit....etc etc. Apartment living is the norm. down side is expense, up side is rent control. examples: (Note the CHF is roughly equivalent to the USD as I post; the 'natural' rate is ca. 1.13 CHF to USD.

Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: DoNorth on November 10, 2018, 11:11:37 AM
We moved to SW France 6 months ago.  I was FIREd in Michigan, but a really easy, high paying job and the opportunity to let my kids learn another language and my family travel more of the world convinced us it was the right move at the right time.

Our town is not particularly expensive--a nice two or three bedroom apartment can be had for 600-700€, groceries are a little higher overall than the US, so we shop at LIDL for basic staples and supplement at other groceries.  Wine/beer are considerably less.  Everything is walkable and I bike to work every day.  Kids sports/activities seem to be a lot more economical.  My employer covers all my living expenses except cell phone and internet with a tax free allowance and they give me an educational stipend for my kids' school tuition and language tutoring.  We've met lots of great people and have felt very welcomed. I would do it all over again in a minute.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: auntie_betty on November 11, 2018, 12:42:53 PM


SPAIN: auntie_betty - thanks for the info on Spain. I want to make a scouting visit to Andalucia soon! I am just about settled into Taiwan and will be 'free' soon. As stated in this post, I have two young kids and they are attending a local Taiwan school so the overhead of this and that is quite a lot.

I would like to come for two weeks or so - maybe in December or February. What kind of accommodations are available? I really don't like hotels. I prefer to cook some of my meals and wash my own clothes. And how hard is to rent a vehicle for 2 weeks? A mustachian solution would be great.

When I was in college I spoke basic Mexican. It is somewhere in the back of my brain! Hopefully it will find its way out quickly in Spain. And hopefully I can get rid of the Mexican accent!

What I really need more detail on is the WINE. Of course the 'official' reason for me wanting to move my family to Spain is for my kids to learn Spanish and Spanish culture.

Your best bet would be to rent an apartment on a website like booking.com, most places at that time of the year I'd expect you could get a decent choice for €500 to €550. I'd choose that over airbnb solely for flexibility. However, I'd look for one with parking - obviously free if possible or subsidised. Parking is free in most Spanish towns but very expensive in cities - we've just come back from a break in Malaga and parking was €23 a day. Alternatively, if you are going to be mainly city based, only rent a car when you want to explore outside the city. If you flew to Malaga for instance you can get the train from the airport into the city for around €2 and I think the bus to  Granada from that airport is also cheap.

Car hire is usually very reasonable but the additional CDW insurance etc is very dear. I don't know how easy it is for you to arrange a separate annual car excess insurance - when I was based in the UK and travelling to Spain for holidays it was much cheaper to do it that way (warning - they will block about €500 off your credit card till the car is returned if you do your own insurance).

And the wine is great - rioja, ribera, verdejo, albarino :)
 
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on November 11, 2018, 01:39:59 PM
Anyone out there in Spain now?

Taiwan is OK but I need a change. I want to head to Spain in the next few months on a scouting mission (housing, school for kids, quality of wine, etc.)

I just spent some time there and was most impressed by Valencia. Beautiful city with an old part and new futuristic part. A park that runs through the old riverbed. Spain’s third largest city but not overcrowded like Barcelona or Madrid. Has a beach. And bike paths everywhere.  I have no idea about schools or daily living but would definitely spend time there to see if living full time is an option.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: YK-Phil on November 11, 2018, 02:12:01 PM
This is badass. My wife and had the concrete plan to be there as well a few years back (we also looked at Spain, Okinawa where she is from, Thailand, Mexico and a few other places we really liked, likely alternating from country to country a year at the time), unfortunately, life has thrown a monkey wrench in our plans (one adult son is not doing well and can't be left on his own...) so we must stay put for the time being. Hopefully, not too long, and he will get back on his feet soon, as I am 60 and she 44. Still young, but time flies quicker than we realize. Right now, we travel overland and wild camp every winter between Canada and Central America in 4 to 6-month increments so life could be worse...
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: letsdoit on November 12, 2018, 04:12:00 PM
We moved to SW France 6 months ago.  I was FIREd in Michigan, but a really easy, high paying job and the opportunity to let my kids learn another language and my family travel more of the world convinced us it was the right move at the right time.

Our town is not particularly expensive--a nice two or three bedroom apartment can be had for 600-700€, groceries are a little higher overall than the US, so we shop at LIDL for basic staples and supplement at other groceries.  Wine/beer are considerably less.  Everything is walkable and I bike to work every day.  Kids sports/activities seem to be a lot more economical.  My employer covers all my living expenses except cell phone and internet with a tax free allowance and they give me an educational stipend for my kids' school tuition and language tutoring.  We've met lots of great people and have felt very welcomed. I would do it all over again in a minute.

are you near bordeaux?

would you move there if you didnot have a job, but you had enough to retire there ?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: auntie_betty on November 13, 2018, 03:21:32 PM


I just spent some time there and was most impressed by Valencia. Beautiful city with an old part and new futuristic part. A park that runs through the old riverbed. Spain’s third largest city but not overcrowded like Barcelona or Madrid. Has a beach. And bike paths everywhere.  I have no idea about schools or daily living but would definitely spend time there to see if living full time is an option.

I have to be honest, Valencia is my least favourite city so far, but I accept that's probably because I visited it during Las Fallas in March. The whole city was heaving and so very, very noisy (even by Spanish noisy standards!) with firecrackers going off literally all day and night (and yes, I DO mean literally!!!). It has a different look to all the other cities I've visited - more modern and bright somehow - and I'd like to visit again at a different time of the year, but I prefer others.

Zaragoza is also lovely btw..........
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: kenmoremmm on November 13, 2018, 09:09:30 PM
can one move to one of these countries using the retirement visa, and still do contract work with companies back in the US? i'm pretty sure i can work from abroad for my current company for a good long while while making the transition to FIRE. we're not there yet - maybe 10 years out. but, if we cut the COL by going abroad, and sell the primary residence, that would certainly accelerate things.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Linea_Norway on November 14, 2018, 03:51:12 AM
can one move to one of these countries using the retirement visa, and still do contract work with companies back in the US? i'm pretty sure i can work from abroad for my current company for a good long while while making the transition to FIRE. we're not there yet - maybe 10 years out. but, if we cut the COL by going abroad, and sell the primary residence, that would certainly accelerate things.

You will likely have to pay income taxes to that new country. Not sure you Americans will find that a bargain, if I sometimes read that Americans find 15% tax on higher incomes very high. Welcome to the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: malacca on April 25, 2019, 10:29:03 AM
Well, Taiwan is getting old. Time for a change soon.

We are still hoping to get to Spain. It seems the visa paper work is a lot of work - and has to be done from your home country.

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Linea_Norway on April 25, 2019, 11:16:39 AM
Well, Taiwan is getting old. Time for a change soon.

We are still hoping to get to Spain. It seems the visa paper work is a lot of work - and has to be done from your home country.

Any suggestions?

Maybe Portugal is easier? Should be pretty similar.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: YK-Phil on April 25, 2019, 11:23:57 AM
Well, Taiwan is getting old. Time for a change soon.

We are still hoping to get to Spain. It seems the visa paper work is a lot of work - and has to be done from your home country.

Any suggestions?

You may want to contact the consulate of Spain (or Portugal if you decide on Portugal) in the country you currently reside, or the nearest. I know for Mexico, one can apply for temporary or permanent residence at any Mexican consulate in the world, regardless of where you reside.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Hula Hoop on April 25, 2019, 11:31:51 AM
can one move to one of these countries using the retirement visa, and still do contract work with companies back in the US? i'm pretty sure i can work from abroad for my current company for a good long while while making the transition to FIRE. we're not there yet - maybe 10 years out. but, if we cut the COL by going abroad, and sell the primary residence, that would certainly accelerate things.

Here in Italy, you can't.  You can only get the elective residency (retirement) visa if you don't plan to work at all in any country while you have it.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Shane on April 25, 2019, 01:31:27 PM
For anyone reading this thread who may be considering moving to Spain, here are step by step instructions on how to get a Non Lucrative Visa (https://wagonersabroad.com/non-lucrative-residence-visa-spain/).
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: SamIAm38 on April 26, 2019, 10:54:06 AM
This thread is so tempting! I'm almost at 500k and single, seems like I could easily FIRE or at least sabbatical in some of these places instead of keeping up with this corporate grind.

What do you think the pros and cons are on long term residency in specific areas are over just moving at the end of normal travel visa periods to the next location? Socializing concerns? Stability concerns? Having too much stuff to easily pick up and move every 3 months?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: letsdoit on April 26, 2019, 11:03:46 AM
For anyone reading this thread who may be considering moving to Spain, here are step by step instructions on how to get a Non Lucrative Visa (https://wagonersabroad.com/non-lucrative-residence-visa-spain/).

this link is the least clear, least step by step thing i have read in a long time
 i would have rather read it in spanish, as it makes no sense in english
it's good to know you can get that visa, tho
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: kenmoremmm on April 26, 2019, 11:26:26 AM
For anyone reading this thread who may be considering moving to Spain, here are step by step instructions on how to get a Non Lucrative Visa (https://wagonersabroad.com/non-lucrative-residence-visa-spain/).

this link is the least clear, least step by step thing i have read in a long time
 i would have rather read it in spanish, as it makes no sense in english
it's good to know you can get that visa, tho

quoted for truth.
i can't stand sites like that.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Shane on April 26, 2019, 12:38:07 PM
For anyone reading this thread who may be considering moving to Spain, here are step by step instructions on how to get a Non Lucrative Visa (https://wagonersabroad.com/non-lucrative-residence-visa-spain/).

this link is the least clear, least step by step thing i have read in a long time
 i would have rather read it in spanish, as it makes no sense in english
it's good to know you can get that visa, tho

quoted for truth.
i can't stand sites like that.
lol, yeah, sorry, it looks like they're trying to sell a book for $47.95 and "consulting services." Maybe that explains why the information that used to be easily and freely accessible on that site is gone or hidden.

Here's another blog post from a US family explaining how they got the Non Lucrative Visa for Spain (https://bucking-the-trend.com/apply-non-lucrative-residence-visa-spain-us-citizen/). Hopefully, it'll be more helpful than the first one.

Sorry, the first link was kind of lame. Hopefully, this one has some better info.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: beekeeper on May 10, 2019, 08:49:24 AM
This thread is inspiring!

We have talked about moving to Spain/Portugal with kids and retiring early on the 4% SWR but we are too wimpy. Great to read about other people actually doing it.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: Eurotexan on May 11, 2019, 09:59:41 AM
Loving this thread too. I also have a UK passport (not as useful as it once was, bloody Brexit!).

I have a few more years left to save and get daughter to college. I will be revisiting this thread often for ideas.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: malacca on September 16, 2022, 11:29:20 PM
Well, we returned to the USA Oct 30th, 2019. We had planned on moving to Spain in Aug 2020.

Well  the Pandemic killed that idea. We did end up in Panama, Turkey and Denmark in 2021 and 2022.

Now my kids are older and in all honors classes in Middle and High School - so hard to move abroad again (once you stop, you cannot get back in those tracks).



Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: tj on September 29, 2022, 08:42:18 AM
Well, we returned to the USA Oct 30th, 2019. We had planned on moving to Spain in Aug 2020.

Well  the Pandemic killed that idea. We did end up in Panama, Turkey and Denmark in 2021 and 2022.

Now my kids are older and in all honors classes in Middle and High School - so hard to move abroad again (once you stop, you cannot get back in those tracks).

So are you staying in USA until they are in college?  Have you been to a South America country yet? My understanding is that most of them don't have tax treaties with the US so you get extra screwed on taxes?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: brooklynmoney on September 29, 2022, 07:58:29 PM
Spain is from what I know one of six countries to have a wealth tax. There’s no way in hell I am paying a tax annually on my assets. Except I believe Madrid has set the rate to 0%. There are complicated tax and visa issues in terms of moving abroad. I am exploring “golden visa” programs in different EU countries and have been checking them out for a few years now but definitely would not make a move without consulting a tax and legal advisor.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: ca-rn on November 02, 2022, 03:02:09 PM
Spain is from what I know one of six countries to have a wealth tax. There’s no way in hell I am paying a tax annually on my assets. Except I believe Madrid has set the rate to 0%. There are complicated tax and visa issues in terms of moving abroad. I am exploring “golden visa” programs in different EU countries and have been checking them out for a few years now but definitely would not make a move without consulting a tax and legal advisor.

I found there are 5 countries that have a wealth tax
Columbia- 1% Net wealth over 1.3 million
Norway- .7 and .25 FMV 180K/single
France - .5-1.5 Personal net real estate over 1.3 Euro
Spain- .2-3.5 of assets
Switzerland-.05-4.5 FMV gross assets

For the FIRED people in Spain, how has the tax bite been in reality?
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: ca-rn on November 02, 2022, 03:03:59 PM
Holyoak,

We plan to move to either Spain or Portugal in the next 2 to 3 years, so while I cannot give you exact answers to your questions, I can pass along the information I found researching in preparation of our move.
The cost of living for your targeted location can be found at numbeo.
Generally speaking, a budget of $3500/mo will provide a good standard of living in Spain for a couple. That amount includes health insurance as well. Private health insurance for a couple will be no more than $3000/year.
Both Spain and Portugal have a relatively generous immigration policy for retirees - Spain has a so called non-lucrative visa - you first obtain a one  year visa, which can be renewed until you reach 5 years of residence in Spain. At that point, you become permanent resident. The process is long and requires a lot of documentation. Two of the most important things that you need to prove are: financial resources that will allow you to support yourself and your family for the duration of your stay (this should not be a problem for one who reached FI); and proof if medical insurance.
A car may not always be necessary - it depends which area you are targeting, how close you are to shops, etc, and more importantly, lifestyle. You have a lot of options - you can design your lifestyle based on your interests and more importantly, based on your budget.
I hope this answers some of your questions.

Can you provide an update?  Did you end up moving to Spain or Portugal? 
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: ca-rn on November 02, 2022, 03:09:01 PM
Of potential interest to folks on this thread, I just discovered that France changed its wealth tax so that it applies only to global property in excess of 1.3M euros, rather than any net worth in excess of that amount as it did previously. This took effect at the beginning of this year. This is good news for us, as living for a while in southern France is also a possibility.

How is the Global Property value assessed?  Annually? 
I plan to slow Fire Abroad but will keep property that is "valued" at the limit per Zillow but in reality would not get that much.  If its per property tax, I'm safe.
Title: Re: Moved Abroad
Post by: FLBiker on November 08, 2022, 01:38:06 PM
I realize that this may barely count as abroad in some folks mind, but we moved from the US (Tampa, FL) to Canada in July 2020.  There are certainly pros and cons, but we love where we are (semi-rural Nova Scotia).  As other folks have mentioned, there are certainly complexities when it comes to tax time and holding investments, but it's certainly doable.  One nice thing about Canada is that they recognize Roth IRAs.  We can't contribute to them anymore, but we declared them with our first year's taxes, and they'll be tax-free forever going forward.