iPhones that are paying me?

[Making Cents]

OK, bear with my math here... This doesn't begin to touch some badass flip phone folks on this forum, so my bragging rights are very limited, but I am still pretty happy with our latest phone upgrades.

For the past several years, I've felt mildly guilty for indulging in the Apple tax (at least as far as phones go), but felt it necessary because I have an actual learning disability/spatial memory issue inherited from my mom that means I can get lost in my own neighborhood (no exaggeration -- I can easily get disoriented in my own hometown, on an alternate route to work, in shopping malls, warehouse discount stores.... it's a pretty incredible talent that if left unchecked can make me hours late to work or any appointment). So a modest 1GB data plan for maps and smartphone voice navigation is a must for me, and saves money in wasted gas, not to mention time and embarrassment. If I as Frugal Spouse get one, then DH in fairness gets one equally fancy phone. Work pays for our mac laptops and iPads so iPhones it is... And all this time I thought this was an expensive luxury I had to suck up, but to my surprise I just proved myself wrong. In fact, in four years' time I will probably find that our iPhones are paying us!

Here's how our recent upgrade from 2012 iPhone 5s (no longer upgradable to current OS so due to lose its resale value soon) to iPhone SE broke down:

1) My "new" unlocked 2016 iPhone SE found certified refurbished on clearance:cost of $108. Fancy thumbprint security, night shift dimming, oh my!
2) DH "new" unlocked 2016 iPhone SE found certified refurbished: cost of $119.

Both new phones were returnable within 30 days. There was the risk of no warrantee, but we could give feedback online. So far, so good. No issues with batteries or hardware. Very happy with latest iOS (including improved maps and lane assistance! yippee!).

BuyBack World quoted us $80 ($40 per old phone), so I ordered a free shipping kit to sell our old iPhone 5s to them, but then....  I did better!

3) Sold DH iphone 5 on Craigslist for $70.
4) Sold my phone 5 on Craigslist for $95.

That means our initial upgrade cost of $227 is now down to $62 for two phones. But, assuming that these unlocked iPhones hold their resale value as Apple products (and our old phones) typically do, I can reasonably expect they will resell for about $40 apiece in 4 years on Buy Back World, which would yield a slight profit of $18 spread over 4 years.

If I succeed in selling these phones at even higher prices again on CL (as I've now done quickly with no problem for a mac laptop, an Apple time capsule, and two iPhones), we will make out even better -- perhaps over $100 gained if these iPhone 5 sales are anything to go by.

I am officially absolving myself of guilt. :)

[swashbucklinstache]

So I think you shouldn't feel guilty at all and having that kind of tech at those prices is awesome.

But I do think the math is slightly off here. I think in an upgrade scenario it'd go like this:

Cost to you = [purchase price of original phone] - [resale value of original phone] + [purchase price of new phone] - [{later} resale value of new phone].

I think you're missing the first variable in your math here, implicitly assigning it a value of 0 giving you a negative "cost".

Regardless, you're talking about a 2 figure price tag for 8 person-years of phones at that (high) level of tech so we're deep in "who cares about the details, you've already won" territory. Congrats!

I'm sure others may chime in about the importance of your ongoing monthly plan(s) and how the particular handsets may or may not play into that positively or negatively..

[Making Cents]

Yeah... excellent point. I'm being a little sneaky there (and probably intentionally hiding that from myself). We paid full price for new iPhones in 2012 (the ultimate source of my guilt!), but we bought outright rather than financing, obviously. I don't remember the cost, but it would have been outrageous (pre-MMM) at around $700 each. So divided by 67 months of ownership, that's around $10.45/mo per person.

I'm coming to think of my phones like my cars now. Never finance. Never buy new. Buy used high quality that will hold resale value.

I'm just chalking up our initial descent into smartphone madness as a loss and a mistake (much like the only new car I ever bought or will ever buy when I was 23). But I'm encouraged that moving forward and always buying phones about two years old, it never needs to be a loss again.

[Daley]

So a modest 1GB data plan for maps and smartphone voice navigation is a must for me, and saves money in wasted gas, not to mention time and embarrassment.

It's great that you've come around to the buy used/refurbished end of smartphone shopping, it's a far cheaper and environmentally friendly way of doing things. I'm also happy that you've found a way to keep doing the Apple walled garden hardware end a bit more affordably (even if I personally dislike the grossly locked down, anti-end-user and user repairable handset policies they have in place), but I just want to address this one line. Ongoing monthly costs, in addition to sunk cost of the handsets, are what get you. Even if you need GPS services, you don't "need" 1GB of data a month to use it. Using the physical storage in the phone itself will always be far cheaper than re-downloading the information over and over and over and over again from a remote server.

Use offline maps. It'll save you more money.

[Making Cents]

So a modest 1GB data plan for maps and smartphone voice navigation is a must for me, and saves money in wasted gas, not to mention time and embarrassment.

Ongoing monthly costs, in addition to sunk cost of the handsets, are what get you. Even if you need GPS services, you don't "need" 1GB of data a month to use it. Using the physical storage in the phone itself will always be far cheaper than re-downloading the information over and over and over and over again from a remote server.

Use offline maps. It'll save you more money.

I'm intrigued by storing maps on my phone. Can I still have voice guidance then?

I will be overjoyed if I learn I can get a cheaper plan. I have drooled over the phone threads here where people are paying 2 digits per year, but I have to have a phone correct me and adjust directions as I'm driving if I take a wrong turn (which happens all the time). I've always assumed offline maps wouldn't respond to my location, right? I can't memorize directions-- that's part of this, so looking at a map on the phone and then driving unfortunately doesn't help me unless I want to be constantly (illegally) referring to my phone.

I do pay Cricket $30 per month (x2 for DH). So my directional incompetence is costing over $700 a year since I won't give DH a less generous plan than mine. I hate that it's that pricey, but I can't even begin to describe to you how my otherwise fully functioning brain blanks on navigating -- it was an actual safety concern prior to smartphones and in some cases limited what I could do for work. I won't go back to that. I would otherwise happily do wi-fi only for data. Other than maps, I rarely use it for anything other than calls, texts, and occasionally email or a google search. I haven't found lower plans in my area with good reviews for reliability. I also work from home (or on various sites for research outside my office) 2-3 days a week, so need phone service without gaps for coverage in a largely rural state.

[driftwood]

I don't get the DH part of this whole setup.  Does he want an equal phone/data plan?

You've stated your disability justifies your data plan. Ok... but do you buy (and then feed and house) two seeing eye dogs for a blind person and their spouse (you know, because DH wanted a dog too)? Do you buy two wheelchair-accesible vehicles for one wheelchair bound spouse and their able-bodied partner? See where I'm going here? Maybe he just likes an iPhone and data, and that's fine. But tying BOTH phones and data to YOUR issue is mixed logic.

Maybe there's been more discussion about this than what you've put on here, and that's what you've both agreed is fair.

[Making Cents]

I'm a fairly logical person, but in almost 20 years of marriage, it's consideration of the other person, not logic, that increases our happiness. DH is not attracted to frugality in any way shape or form. He's a spendthrift, and thank goodness he didn't marry another spendypants cause they'd be in debt up to their eyeballs. If DH had his preferences, we'd have brand new phones every couple of years and would never have switched from Verizon to Cricket. I consider it a real win that he has made so many frugal changes for us that go against his nature (e.g. making his lunch for work everyday and resisting grocery impulse buys).

I am not a dictator in my marriage! ;-) I would also not ask him, the non-frugal spouse, to give up more than I am giving up. I don't think that's right.

(And to clarify, I don't see saving on a phone plan as giving something up... I see that as getting something for us, but this is the fundamental difference between savers and spenders. Savers think they are giving something up when they have to spend it. Spenders think they are giving something up when they don't get to have the goodie they want. I am the former; he is the latter, and we get along and love each other by respecting that.)

[driftwood]

@Making Cents ... now it all makes sense, thanks!

When I want to be the spender I resent being told to save.  When I want to be the saver I resent being told to spend.

[Rural]

So a modest 1GB data plan for maps and smartphone voice navigation is a must for me, and saves money in wasted gas, not to mention time and embarrassment.

Ongoing monthly costs, in addition to sunk cost of the handsets, are what get you. Even if you need GPS services, you don't "need" 1GB of data a month to use it. Using the physical storage in the phone itself will always be far cheaper than re-downloading the information over and over and over and over again from a remote server.

Use offline maps. It'll save you more money.

I'm intrigued by storing maps on my phone. Can I still have voice guidance then?

I will be overjoyed if I learn I can get a cheaper plan. I have drooled over the phone threads here where people are paying 2 digits per year, but I have to have a phone correct me and adjust directions as I'm driving if I take a wrong turn (which happens all the time). I've always assumed offline maps wouldn't respond to my location, right? I can't memorize directions-- that's part of this, so looking at a map on the phone and then driving unfortunately doesn't help me unless I want to be constantly (illegally) referring to my phone.

I do pay Cricket $30 per month (x2 for DH). So my directional incompetence is costing over $700 a year since I won't give DH a less generous plan than mine. I hate that it's that pricey, but I can't even begin to describe to you how my otherwise fully functioning brain blanks on navigating -- it was an actual safety concern prior to smartphones and in some cases limited what I could do for work. I won't go back to that. I would otherwise happily do wi-fi only for data. Other than maps, I rarely use it for anything other than calls, texts, and occasionally email or a google search. I haven't found lower plans in my area with good reviews for reliability. I also work from home (or on various sites for research outside my office) 2-3 days a week, so need phone service without gaps for coverage in a largely rural state.

I don’t know how it works with Apple, but with android/google maps, you can download maps on WiFi and then get the voice guidance without data - I do it all the time. It even updates maps every 30 days when I’m on WiFi as long as I’ve used that particular map in the last 30 days. I don’t have data at all, so I’m sure this is how it works,

[sokoloff]

Use offline maps. It'll save you more money.

I'm intrigued by storing maps on my phone. Can I still have voice guidance then?

Yes. I use Google maps on my iPhone and download offline maps all the time. Huge time or money saver, especially when traveling internationally, but even in the US on Ting, it's nice to have the maps without much data usage.

[Making Cents]

Thanks for sharing that. That is good to know and something I'll check out for sure. One more question... if you fail to follow the original route... Let's say you turn off the highway because of an accident/traffic or you misunderstand and take the wrong exit, can those downloaded maps adjust your course in real time? I always assumed that required locational data on cellular, right?

[Daley]

Thanks for sharing that. That is good to know and something I'll check out for sure. One more question... if you fail to follow the original route... Let's say you turn off the highway because of an accident/traffic or you misunderstand and take the wrong exit, can those downloaded maps adjust your course in real time? I always assumed that required locational data on cellular, right?

The location data on your phone is done by GPS (as in Global Positioning Satellite) triangulation, not by cell tower. All the maps do is tell the guidance software where you can physically drive to get to your destination in relationship to where you are on the face of the planet. It doesn't download the voice cues on demand, either. It is no different than with an older Garmin GPS device, pre-smartphone and data plans.

I'm not 100% on this, but I understand that Puretalk USA is officially supported as an AT&T MVNO now with iPhones, so the MMS APN issues shouldn't be an issue. (This is a real serious issue, by the way, and one of the myriad reasons why I've been so anti-iPhone over the years - I don't like corporations telling me who I can and cannot use as a carrier after spending several hundred dollars on their product.) Again though, I have not been able to confirm this beyond assurances from Puretalk USA publicly over at HoFo that this is so, as they are still not on the official Apple approved carrier list. Something that has, since that claim has been made, updated to include Xfinity Wireless - but still not them.... and I still haven't gotten word from @Paul der Krake whether his wife's iPhone works with PTUSA.

If Puretalk works for you, though, that will give you the same coverage footprint as Cricket Wireless provides (AT&T without roaming) with "unlimited" talk and text plans starting at $20/month with 500MB of LTE data. It's also worth reading their terms of service and noting that they only officially permit 750 minutes of conference calling or call forwarding airtime, which roughly translates into about 1500 minutes of regular talk time. Not exactly "unlimited", so make sure you're averaging under 25 hours of talk time a month on your phone. Given you're not running into problems with Cricket, however, you'll probably be fine.

Boom, $20/month saved.

There's also Consumer Cellular worth pricing out. They are on the officially supported Apple provider list, and they offer AT&T postpaid coverage (AT&T plus roaming - so even better coverage than Cricket, technically). Two lines, "unlimited" talk and text, and 1GB of pooled data shared between the two of you will run $45/month plus taxes and regulatory fees. Perhaps not as much savings as Puretalk, but still $10/month less than what you're currently spending with far better coverage and customer service.

[sokoloff]

Thanks for sharing that. That is good to know and something I'll check out for sure. One more question... if you fail to follow the original route... Let's say you turn off the highway because of an accident/traffic or you misunderstand and take the wrong exit, can those downloaded maps adjust your course in real time? I always assumed that required locational data on cellular, right?

You can turn your data entirely off and you'll still get a moving blue dot and updated route calculations.

What you won't get without data is updated traffic information, of course, but the phone can do route calculations all on its own.

[Making Cents]

Thanks sokoloff and Daley. This is very useful to know. I will definitely check this out and consider changing plans if it works for me.

[Making Cents]

If Puretalk works for you, though, that will give you the same coverage footprint as Cricket Wireless provides (AT&T without roaming) with "unlimited" talk and text plans starting at $20/month with 500MB of LTE data. It's also worth reading their terms of service and noting that they only officially permit 750 minutes of conference calling or call forwarding airtime, which roughly translates into about 1500 minutes of regular talk time. Not exactly "unlimited", so make sure you're averaging under 25 hours of talk time a month on your phone. Given you're not running into problems with Cricket, however, you'll probably be fine.

Boom, $20/month saved.

There's also Consumer Cellular worth pricing out. They are on the officially supported Apple provider list, and they offer AT&T postpaid coverage (AT&T plus roaming - so even better coverage than Cricket, technically). Two lines, "unlimited" talk and text, and 1GB of pooled data shared between the two of you will run $45/month plus taxes and regulatory fees. Perhaps not as much savings as Puretalk, but still $10/month less than what you're currently spending with far better coverage and customer service.

Thanks again. All very helpful. One minor quibble though: keep in mind that Cricket includes all taxes and fees in its pricing. A quick look at PureTalk shows the final price in my area would be $23/mo per person, so the savings is $14/mo for our household, not $20. (Still $168 annually so nothing to turn my nose up at!)

[Daley]

Thanks again. All very helpful. One minor quibble though: keep in mind that Cricket includes all taxes and fees in its pricing. A quick look at PureTalk shows the final price in my area would be $23/mo per person, so the savings is $14/mo for our household, not $20. (Still $168 annually so nothing to turn my nose up at!)

I guesstimated your taxes a bit low, but you're forgetting the 10% discount on your entire bill for two lines. So it's $18/month saved instead of $20. Close enough for government work.

[Making Cents]

Ooh good point. Should have known you would be thorough!

[Dee18]

Any reds for where to buy certified refurbished phones?

[Making Cents]

Any reds for where to buy certified refurbished phones?

Walmart, of all places. Third party sales for refurbished items set prices that vary widely, but by watching them regularly for a couple of months until two vendors had clearance sales, I saw the lowest prices I could find on the web with the ability to return if not satisfied.