Health Insurance. My 2 year milestone.

[billygoatjohnson]

Not bad ass, but a small mile stone. 2 years health insurance free. Saved around $7,200 thus far. For me it makes sense, but isn't for everyone. Anyone else?

[jim555]

Not bad ass, but a small mile stone. 2 years health insurance free. Saved around $7,200 thus far. For me it makes sense, but isn't for everyone. Anyone else?

How?  You just can't throw that out there like that.

[stoaX]

Do you mean that you have gone without health insurance for 2 years and estimate the premiums you didn't pay were worth $7200? 

If so, then no,  it's not for me.   

I'm content with my ACA plan with low premiums in exchange for a high deductible.  Protection against a catastrophic illness or injury is what works for me.

[Dicey]

II was diagnosed with breast cancer less than a week after turning 65. Yesterday, I got my first Medicare statement. In the first month, my bills were $12,600. My total OOP was $165 for the first month's premium, plus $30 in co-pays. This does not include the cost of surgery or follow-up treatment. There are many more expenses to come.

BTW, I had zero symptoms. I was just getting my routine checkups done. As a result of being caught early, the cost of treatment will be far less than it could have been. Because I have insurance, paying for this curveball isn't an issue. I can focus on getting better, not on if it's going to ruin me financially.

Dunno, bragging about your decision and how much money you've "saved" seems like tempting fate.

[GilesMM]

My dad had a heart problem and was in the hospital for over a week. The bills are still rolling in but over $400,000 so far.  (100% covered by Medicare plus private insurance.)  I would hate to self-insure for that.


A fit younger friend of mine has employer-paid insurance of $750/month.  But he couldn't figure out the open enrollment so he didn't bother signing up.  Now he has had COVID for more than two months and hasn't been to a doctor as he has no insurance and is too frugal to pay full price.  Last week he was really struggling to breathe.  He has coughed for weeks including some blood.   A youngish colleague of his died from COVID in April.    I would hate to be sick and reluctant to seek treatment.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I will simply say that this is a pretty dangerous thing to do, in my opinion.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

I can't imagine doing this, and think it's an incredibly dangerous gamble - both with your finances, and your health.

[BicycleB]

I accidentally lost health insurance due to some weird paperwork error by my health insurer. Four healthy months passed without incident. Then I was lucky enough that something minor came up. This resulted in me finding and fixing my lack of insurance. Premiums that I missed saved me a little over $2000. So in the sense of "saving" money by not having insurance, yes I did that.

I would not do it again if I can help it, especially in USA.

My friend felt too poor to afford insurance, so he skipped it for several years and got by. Then he got ACA, which fully paid his premiums. After five years not seeing the doctor and feeling ok, his intake exam led to specialist referrals that pointed out his heart valve was beginning to fray. It's the kind of condition that worsens slowly for some months, then quickly, then causes death. The cure was surgery to replace the valve. The specialist said he could choose between surgery or dying within a year.

Maybe a $100,000 bill? The bulk was paid by his new insurance, of course, a savings of over $90,000. That calculation misses the point. Pardon the upcoming caps but having insurance and getting his checkup SAVED HIS LIFE.

Strictly speaking, this is a what-goes-around-comes-around story. This friend changed my life by getting me travel internationally a few years back, and hosting me in South America for several months last year. He wouldn't have done these things if he had died. And I'm the one who encouraged him to get ACA seven years ago and pointed out how cheap it was after premium subsidy.

Your next move is up to you. You probably have reasons for your plan. Let us know.

PS. I do respect anyone who has a plan and does it. You're kind of getting piled onto here, but congratulations on making your plan and persevering.

[billygoatjohnson]

Yes from saved premiums. I don't qualify for ACA. I live a healthy life outside of a city. Not worried one bit. I'll maybe get some when I'm 50.

[badger1988]

I get it. I also live a healthy lifestyle and generally feel invincible. I'm 35 and haven't visited or even had a doctor since high school..until last week. If I were single and didn't have affordable insurance through work I would certainly have considered self-insuring. I do self-insure my house, get only minimum car insurance required by law, choose highest-deductible employer-sponsored health insurance, don't have life insurance, etc.

That said, self-injuring our healthcare would not have worked out for me in the long run:

• Our twins were born premature and spent a few weeks in the NICU. Insurance covered about 500k for that.
• Just last month after having zero significant health issues for my adult life, I developed a hernia (something like 1/4 of men will in their lifetime) which may require surgery soon.
• I have a few active, healthy friends that have had emergency appendectomies.

Examples could go on. Point is, this could absolutely work out for you, but similarly to the stock market, past performance does not guarantee future results.

[Adventine]

One can be the perfect exemplar of health and wellness, and still incur huge medical expenses from an accident that is entirely someone else's fault.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

Yes from saved premiums. I don't qualify for ACA. I live a healthy life outside of a city. Not worried one bit. I'll maybe get some when I'm 50.

All other feedback aside, what is it about living outside of a city that gives you a better chance of staying healthy?

[Dollar Slice]

All other feedback aside, what is it about living outside of a city that gives you a better chance of staying healthy?

I think that's just an indicator that someone believes certain kinds of propaganda.

I've known five or six healthy men under 50 that suddenly had out-of-the-blue health emergencies that needed hugely expensive medical treatments.

One was hit by a car, broke both his legs - he required a wheelchair, couldn't work, couldn't walk, etc. for many months.

Two had brain aneurysms. (Truly amazing that I know two people who had this within the last couple of years, but... yes.)

A teenage boy who had cancer and died.

A teenage boy who fell off his bike while not wearing his helmet and had a TBI.

A man in his 40s who is currently battling fairly advanced cancer which required surgery and six rounds of chemo, so far.

You can be a healthy young man and life just randomly shits on you all of a sudden. That's what insurance is for. Avoiding check-ups because you haven't got insurance just makes it more likely that life will randomly shit on you.

[billygoatjohnson]

Yes from saved premiums. I don't qualify for ACA. I live a healthy life outside of a city. Not worried one bit. I'll maybe get some when I'm 50.

All other feedback aside, what is it about living outside of a city that gives you a better chance of staying healthy?

Cleaner air. Better food (direct from farmer or grown myself). Less likely car accident, less likely crime. Less stress.

Raw goat milk. Wild mushrooms. Yum

But yeah most rural people are fat and unhealthy. True story.

[RainyDay]

I understand the temptation, but I wouldn't do it.  My DH and I are both pretty healthy, not overweight, eat healthy food, and work out daily.  Low risk for major medical problems.  And last June he was visiting a friend and leaned against a balcony railing, which gave way and he fell 2 stories.  Broke his back.  He was out of work for 4 months, and thank god he had health insurance.   Accidents can happen!

[maisymouser]

Yes from saved premiums. I don't qualify for ACA. I live a healthy life outside of a city. Not worried one bit. I'll maybe get some when I'm 50.

All other feedback aside, what is it about living outside of a city that gives you a better chance of staying healthy?

Cleaner air. Better food (direct from farmer or grown myself). Less likely car accident, less likely crime. Less stress.

Raw goat milk. Wild mushrooms. Yum

But yeah most rural people are fat and unhealthy. True story.

If you live in a rural area, doesn't that mean you are likely to drive more and put more miles on a car and hence be similarly at risk for a car accident?

I'm glad that you haven't had medical problems but I've got to say, I certainly wouldn't tempt fate like that. Accidents happen, unforeseen diseases occur even if you're healthy, and pretending otherwise seems a bit arrogant. With that said, health insurance is ridiculously expensive and I can understand being excited that you haven't had to pay financially for your health at this point. All I can say is that I personally wouldn't sleep well at night not having health insurance.

[billygoatjohnson]

Yes from saved premiums. I don't qualify for ACA. I live a healthy life outside of a city. Not worried one bit. I'll maybe get some when I'm 50.

All other feedback aside, what is it about living outside of a city that gives you a better chance of staying healthy?

Cleaner air. Better food (direct from farmer or grown myself). Less likely car accident, less likely crime. Less stress.

Raw goat milk. Wild mushrooms. Yum

But yeah most rural people are fat and unhealthy. True story.

If you live in a rural area, doesn't that mean you are likely to drive more and put more miles on a car and hence be similarly at risk for a car accident?

I'm glad that you haven't had medical problems but I've got to say, I certainly wouldn't tempt fate like that. Accidents happen, unforeseen diseases occur even if you're healthy, and pretending otherwise seems a bit arrogant. With that said, health insurance is ridiculously expensive and I can understand being excited that you haven't had to pay financially for your health at this point. All I can say is that I personally wouldn't sleep well at night not having health insurance.

In the cities it was common to drive 15-20 minutes to go places. I was surrounded by crackpots, people on drugs, people who shouldn't be driving, and samolians which would do things like stop on the highway after merging with people wizzing by them at 60mph. (I'm in Minnesota). When the roads were icy it don't matter how safe you are, there are hundreds of people skidding around slamming into things. It's like an archery range and nothing you can do to stay safe but stay home. In the country there is so few people and traffic, I can see every single car and anticipate/react to them.

It's been 4 more months. I did the quick labs or whatever it's called. They take your blood and test
 whatever you want. Insurance don't cover it, and no appointment needed. It was like $60 for full blood work. All in the green.

Using projectionlab I have figured out that I will never have low enough income to get ACA subsidies for health insurance. Eventually I'll probably get a full-time or part-time job that pays health insurance, or I'll end up in another country where it's more affordable. Obesity rates in U.S are 42%. Wonder why health insurance is expensive?

If you haven't read it
Two Years Without Health Insurance (and What I’m Doing Now)
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2020/11/09/direct-primary-care/

[Sibley]

There's a saying that you may have heard of: penny wise, pound foolish. If you live in the US, then you are being pound foolish and this is NOT something to celebrate. Doesn't matter if you live in a city or not, doesn't matter how much you exercise or what you eat.

Get your head out of your ass and get health insurance, before something happens and you end up bankrupt.

Oh, and I've hit my oop max, thanks to the biopsy which now means I have to have surgery. And since I believe the doctors want me to have annual MRIs, probably an MRI as well this year. I'm 37, and without the surgery I'd most likely have breast cancer within a few years. You are not special. Get insurance.

[billygoatjohnson]

There's a saying that you may have heard of: penny wise, pound foolish. If you live in the US, then you are being pound foolish and this is NOT something to celebrate. Doesn't matter if you live in a city or not, doesn't matter how much you exercise or what you eat.

Get your head out of your ass and get health insurance, before something happens and you end up bankrupt.

Oh, and I've hit my oop max, thanks to the biopsy which now means I have to have surgery. And since I believe the doctors want me to have annual MRIs, probably an MRI as well this year. I'm 37, and without the surgery I'd most likely have breast cancer within a few years. You are not special. Get insurance.

Na. I'm good. And obesity rates in the U.S are 42%. So that means I'm a little special :)

[Sibley]

There's a saying that you may have heard of: penny wise, pound foolish. If you live in the US, then you are being pound foolish and this is NOT something to celebrate. Doesn't matter if you live in a city or not, doesn't matter how much you exercise or what you eat.

Get your head out of your ass and get health insurance, before something happens and you end up bankrupt.

Oh, and I've hit my oop max, thanks to the biopsy which now means I have to have surgery. And since I believe the doctors want me to have annual MRIs, probably an MRI as well this year. I'm 37, and without the surgery I'd most likely have breast cancer within a few years. You are not special. Get insurance.

Na. I'm good. And obesity rates in the U.S are 42%. So that means I'm a little special :)

If 42% of the population is overweight then 58% of the population is not. And if you're special, it's not in a good way. However, you clearly are arrogant and aren't going to listen. Good luck with the consequences.

[billygoatjohnson]

There's a saying that you may have heard of: penny wise, pound foolish. If you live in the US, then you are being pound foolish and this is NOT something to celebrate. Doesn't matter if you live in a city or not, doesn't matter how much you exercise or what you eat.

Get your head out of your ass and get health insurance, before something happens and you end up bankrupt.

Oh, and I've hit my oop max, thanks to the biopsy which now means I have to have surgery. And since I believe the doctors want me to have annual MRIs, probably an MRI as well this year. I'm 37, and without the surgery I'd most likely have breast cancer within a few years. You are not special. Get insurance.

Na. I'm good. And obesity rates in the U.S are 42%. So that means I'm a little special :)

If 42% of the population is overweight then 58% of the population is not. And if you're special, it's not in a good way. However, you clearly are arrogant and aren't going to listen. Good luck with the consequences.

2 1/2 years. 0 consequences. Someone here is bitter!

[seattlecyclone]

Regarding the idea that living in a rural area is safer than the city, there's a growing mortality gap between Republican-leaning counties and Democratic-leaning ones, with the Republican counties having a significantly higher age-controlled death rate. Since a county's party affiliation is highly correlated with population density these days, I'd guess this data set is also a pretty good proxy for the divide in health outcomes between urban and rural areas.

But sure, just avoid becoming obese, take comfort in the fact that you're less likely than before to encounter a Somalian on the road, and you'll be practically invincible!

[Villanelle]

To me, this reads like, "6 months of having a broken seat belt and not paying to get it repaired".  Or "I've just skipped going to the dentist for 5 years now.  So much money saved!"  What's the saying about the frugal vs. cheap?  For me, this is firmly on the bad side of that line.

[BicycleB]

There's a chance @billygoatjohnson will be safe for decades. There's a chance he won't.

Like other posters, I suspect that if his income is too high for ACA subsidy, his wisest decision would be to pay for health insurance. He will make his own decisions but a few years of "no consequences" fails to prove his position is correct. The numbers don't work that way.

Darwin may or not target his stash. On a human level, I wish there was something I could do to make him safer, but there isn't.

Good luck! Sincerely, if you don't change your mind, I hope in 20 years you're still giving us grief over it. I'd rather have you safe.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I don't begrudge you the fact that you've gambled and won. I certainly wouldn't wish you ill since it would literally be wishing you illness. I doubt many if any others are wishing that on you.

That being said, you're playing a high stakes gambling game where you risk a lot for little reward IMO.

[Louise]

I thought I read an MMM article about how he was contemplating self-insuring for health insurance. I suppose this is possible if you are wealthy enough. Of course, if you are wealthy enough, insurance premiums are a drop in the bucket.

I don't get the money though. You make too much for ACA subsidies, but only saved 7300 over two years? Insurance seems pretty reasonable for you as a percentage of your income. I could see it if premiums cost 30k/yr. or something.

[Metalcat]

I thought I read an MMM article about how he was contemplating self-insuring for health insurance. I suppose this is possible if you are wealthy enough. Of course, if you are wealthy enough, insurance premiums are a drop in the bucket.

I don't get the money though. You make too much for ACA subsidies, but only saved 7300 over two years? Insurance seems pretty reasonable for you as a percentage of your income. I could see it if premiums cost 30k/yr. or something.

Yes, we talked about that entry from MMM quite a bit here and the general consensus was that it sounded like a terrible idea as some very smart and knowledgeable people broke down how the system he was advocating wasn't as reliable as he was making it out to be.

I believe he also self-insures his house, which a recent thread here demonstrated that the consensus in this community is that it's likely a bad idea as well.

That said, it's a matter of odds and risk assessment. If Pete and BGJ are comfortable with the odds, then that's their business to be comfortable with the ratio of risk to payoff.

To most of us, the payoff doesn't sound anywhere near the risk, but folks do risky shit every day. Plenty of folks who would never go without health insurance also text while driving, which is an even higher risk to payoff ratio.

Unfortunately, humans don't actually tend to be the most rational in our risk assessments.

As for OP, he's known for posting things that go against the common grain here and basically calling people stupid when they disagree with him. So I think he was fully expecting the backlash and probably finds it funny.

He's absolutely entitled to decide that this trade off of risk/reward is worth it for him. I don't think he's terribly interested in the fact that others wouldn't make the same decision.

[tj]

I thought this was going to be about manipulating AGI and managing spending to get Free medicaid health insurance.  Bypassing health insurance altogether? Haven't heard of a more stupid idea.

[sonofsven]

Yeah OP, I have to agree, it's shortsighted.
But I did it a few years when I was younger. I also didn't even go to the doctor for years and years. I was never sick, so in my mind, why go where the sick people were? But once I started a family I got a catastrophic plan.
I've been self employed since my 20's so I've learned to get my own insurance and take care of my own health.
I also do all the things you talk about: live in the country, eat healthy, stay fit, etc. Low blood pressure, good weight, no alcohol, no tobacco; I impress my doctor at each yearly checkup, lol. I have a job (carpenter) that keeps me moving.
I agree it's a good idea to get that blood work every year to see where you are.
I get a lot of subsidy help because I'm fairly low income; I have a high deductible ($6900) HSA plan that costs $49/mo, with a robust  HSA account.
Good thing, too, since this year I'm needing an endoscopy (approx $3100, plus whatever followup depending on what they find), a hip replacement ($unknown), physical therapy, and possibly back surgery. Once my deductible is full insurance will pay for all of it. $6900 out of pocket.
When my daughter was born my ex wife almost died. That bill would have been well over $100k.
So don't wait too long to get insurance

[billygoatjohnson]

93% of Americans are not metabolically healthy.

https://www.levelshealth.com/blog/what-is-the-metabolic-health-crisis#:~:text=Metabolic%20dysfunction%20can%20even%20lead,of%20US%20adults%20have%20prediabetes.

So guess I am special :D

I'm not going to pay the same bloated insurance rates as all these pigs in America. Disgusting society where everyone values materials and their society media over health and well being.

Going to check out Portugal and or Sardinia this winter. Sardinia is a blue zone where people are very healthy. If I like it I'll FIRE and get affordable health insurance there.

Good luck to everyone. I'm moving on to new interests and adventures!

[Metalcat]

93% of Americans are not metabolically healthy.

https://www.levelshealth.com/blog/what-is-the-metabolic-health-crisis#:~:text=Metabolic%20dysfunction%20can%20even%20lead,of%20US%20adults%20have%20prediabetes.

So guess I am special :D

I'm not going to pay the same bloated insurance rates as all these pigs in America. Disgusting society where everyone values materials and their society media over health and well being.

Going to check out Portugal and or Sardinia this winter. Sardinia is a blue zone where people are very healthy. If I like it I'll FIRE and get affordable health insurance there.

Good luck to everyone. I'm moving on to new interests and adventures!

Finding a healthier location with affordable insurance is actually an idea that most people here would support. So, cool? Hope you like Portugal or Sardinia.

[sonofsven]

93% of Americans are not metabolically healthy.

https://www.levelshealth.com/blog/what-is-the-metabolic-health-crisis#:~:text=Metabolic%20dysfunction%20can%20even%20lead,of%20US%20adults%20have%20prediabetes.

So guess I am special :D

I'm not going to pay the same bloated insurance rates as all these pigs in America. Disgusting society where everyone values materials and their society media over health and well being.

Going to check out Portugal and or Sardinia this winter. Sardinia is a blue zone where people are very healthy. If I like it I'll FIRE and get affordable health insurance there.

Good luck to everyone. I'm moving on to new interests and adventures!

Lol, I am also in that "special" category of the 7% of Americans that are metabolically healthy, with optimal levels in all five metabolic risk factors: BMI, glucose, blood pressure, HDL, and triglycerides, as per your link.
But I have high health care costs this year because of injury, which has nothing to do with any of those categories. Which is why I have insurance.

Also, if you want to visit blue zones, that's great, maybe you'll find something you love there, but the data is showing that it's mainly the already old people in the blue zones that are healthier than average, mainly because they followed many of the old ways of living and are too stubborn to change, wheres the younger and middle aged folks who live there are showing just as poor health as us fat pig westerners.

So it's not the blue zones per se, it's the lifestyle choices they made (often due to having no other choices to survive) that led to their longevity, and you can replicate a similar lifestyle anywhere.