Author Topic: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.  (Read 16593 times)

Posthumane

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2012, 03:07:56 PM »
Thanks for posting that graph with the power curves on it El Beardo. Unfortunately I have yet to find one for the Subaru EJ25. The closest thing available is one for the EJ22. One thing to point out though is that you can only maintain your that spot of low BSFC (as shown on your chart) for a brief moment unless you have a CVT. During your acceleration phase you might be better off to actually maintain almost peak bmep/torque from about 1500rpm to ~2500rpm (depending on gear) to more horizontally along your chart instead of along a constant 50hp line, resulting in lower average bsfc figures during the rpm change. This is also easier to do than maintaining a constant hp.

Bakari

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2012, 04:14:21 PM »
Pretty clear, but I'm not sure what you are disagreeing about.
You seem to have reached a fairly similar conclusion as my (deliberately over-simplified) version.

More over, I can't tell how you are reading the chart to determine "optimal" shift point.  Why would you want to shift "just past" max torque?  Why not exactly at, or have max torque occur precisely in the center of the RPM range of each gear or land on max torque after shifting?
Clearly in your example it would be optimal to cruise exactly at 1750rpms, but how do you determine how that affects acceleration, which is necessarily not any single RPM?

HumanAfterAll

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2012, 04:28:36 PM »
Pretty clear, but I'm not sure what you are disagreeing about.
You seem to have reached a fairly similar conclusion as my (deliberately over-simplified) version.

It's a minor point, but I disagree with "shift early".  You shouldn't shift early while accelerating, only while cruising. 

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More over, I can't tell how you are reading the chart to determine "optimal" shift point.  Why would you want to shift "just past" max torque?  Why not exactly at, or have max torque occur precisely in the center of the RPM range of each gear or land on max torque after shifting?

You're right, my wording could have been more clear.  As you state, shifting so that max torque is in the center of the RPM range for each gear is the best you can do, while accelerating.  That's what I meant by "just after".  That way, your average throughout the acceleration is centered around optimal.

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Clearly in your example it would be optimal to cruise exactly at 1750rpms, but how do you determine how that affects acceleration, which is necessarily not any single RPM?

It's not optimal to cruise at 1750, unless you need 50HP when you cruise!  If you only need 20hp for the cruising load (aero drag, rolling resistance, slope, and accessories), the most optimal RPM is 1200.  It has the lowest fuel consumption on the 20hp line.  BSFC * power = fuel consumption.

It all boils down to two rules, which are very similar to yours:
1. When accelerating, give it about 80% throttle and keep the RPMs centered around the torque peak
2. When cruising, use the highest gear and lowest throttle position possible

Small differences, but I guess I have too much time on my commute to think about it :)

Posthumane

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2012, 04:52:23 PM »
I think it has come down to everybody violently agreeing, but with minor differences in levels of geeky details. To thrown another wrench into the conversation, one could also consider that different gears have different efficiencies, with your 1:1 gear (usually 4th on 5 speed transmissions) being the least lossy. Also if you're driving a car with an automatic transmission you have to weigh the tradeoff between using low rpms or a small throttle opening during acceleration... *runs and hides*

Captain and Mrs Slow

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2012, 10:15:37 AM »

depends if you want to slow down.  Coast in gear toward stoplights or signs, or when you are going to turn.  Also on really steep hills where you would go to fast in neutral.
If you don't need to slow down, you will go further / faster in neutral, because there is no engine braking.
Getting 200mpg in neutral for (for example) 60 seconds uses less fuel than infinity mpg for 20 seconds

Good point never thought of it that way, in general the spots I have I tried it on leaving the house and turning right (down hill) I keep it in a higher (lower??) gear and it holds me at about the right speed, done properly I can go at no gas pedal most of the way, even through a few round abouts.

I think in the long run there isn't much of a difference between coasting in neutral vs coasting in gear compared to simply driving less aggressively.

Currently I'm in the centre of Munich and while I don't drive much it's taken some figuring out how to avoid getting red on every light.

Lagom

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2012, 12:38:57 PM »
I don’t bother with the geeky optimization details, personally. For years I drove like a typical American psycho, getting 24-26 mpg in my wagon. Then I saw the light and started driving like I had no breaks and was perpetually crossing icy bridges. With no other changes in my approach, I was suddenly getting 31-33 mpg on my commute, which has numerous stop signs, stoplights, one lane roads and other suboptimal driving conditions. Best of all, my driving time did not increase and my road rage tendencies melted away.

Like spending below your means, I see these basic habits as incredibly obvious and easy once adopted, but strangely difficult to embrace when you are still wearing the standard American consumerist earmuffs.

Ozstache

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2012, 04:08:41 AM »
Then I saw the light and started driving like I had no breaks and was perpetually crossing icy bridges.

I like the drive like you have no brakes bit of this very much and will use it to help my wife get remotely near the fuel economy I achieve in our cars. I'm not so sure about the second bit though, as I find I get slightly better fuel economy the harder I accelerate, as it gets me to top gear and hence more economical cruise speed quicker.

Lagom

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2012, 09:43:14 AM »
Then I saw the light and started driving like I had no breaks and was perpetually crossing icy bridges.

I like the drive like you have no brakes bit of this very much and will use it to help my wife get remotely near the fuel economy I achieve in our cars. I'm not so sure about the second bit though, as I find I get slightly better fuel economy the harder I accelerate, as it gets me to top gear and hence more economical cruise speed quicker.

That’s a good point. I was mostly thinking of following distances and how I decelerate and corner (although the no breaks thing probably covers that anyway). I too accelerate as quickly as I can without pyscho revving my engine, to reach cruising speed ASAP.

Lagom

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2012, 09:48:03 AM »
I also enjoy paying more attention to my commute so I can try to better anticipate lights, high congestion spots, etc. It makes driving a bit more fun. Like a really lame video game :)

Captain and Mrs Slow

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2012, 06:51:12 AM »

depends if you want to slow down.  Coast in gear toward stoplights or signs, or when you are going to turn.  Also on really steep hills where you would go to fast in neutral.
If you don't need to slow down, you will go further / faster in neutral, because there is no engine braking.
Getting 200mpg in neutral for (for example) 60 seconds uses less fuel than infinity mpg for 20 seconds

currently since I'm doing most my driving in the city I keep in gear and use the engine as a break to slow me down coming up to a traffic light not always but on a good day I can get all the lights green. Once I'm back home and doing a bit more highway driving I'll have to do some experimenting to see how the cruise in gear vs neutral  works out.

thurston howell iv

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2012, 07:15:41 AM »
Using the engine as the brake puts more strain on the transmission. That's what the brakes are for and they're cheaper to replace too.

HumanAfterAll

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Re: Stopped driving like a jerk, gained 3 MPG.
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2012, 08:29:48 AM »
This is something my dad used to say, but I've found it doesn't hold true.

Transmissions and engines have bearings lubricated with oil.  They essentially don't wear out (my car is at 245,000 on the original engine and transmission) unless you run them without oil. 

Engines can only brake a small amount compared to how much power they can put out, so the strain on the transmission while decelerating is much less than when accelerating. 

If you're shifting more, then that may wear out the synchros faster, but again, 245k on my car and the manual transmission is doing fine.