The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Share Your Badassity => Topic started by: Catica on June 08, 2019, 04:45:21 AM
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Hi,
I'm curious how people can constantly do cc churning. I've done a bunch of cards, have excellent credit but now I keep being denied with an explanation that I've opened too many accounts. How is it possible for anyone to keep on churning?
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How many have you opened, and in what time frame? And which cards are you getting denied for?
Chase has a 5/24 rule, which means they will deny you if you have opened more than 5 cards in the last 24 months. I think Barclays has a 6/24 rule for the Arrival+ card.
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Business cards that don’t show on your credit report.
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Business cards that don’t show on your credit report.
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Where do you find business cards that don’t pull your personal credit? I’ve been told I’m personally liable up until the business has annual revenue > 10million. So basically it’s a “business card” that is actual my own card.
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Yes, business cards do pull your personal credit, but if they issue a card, some banks do not report the card on your credit report. So you are able to get more cards with the only impact to your credit being the inquiry. This method is helpful for getting back under 5/24. American Express, Bank of America, Citibank, and Wells Fargo do not report business cards on credit reports as long as there is nothing negative (missed payments, etc) to report.
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Yes, business cards do pull your personal credit, but if they issue a card, some banks do not report the card on your credit report. So you are able to get more cards with the only impact to your credit being the inquiry. This method is helpful for getting back under 5/24. American Express, Bank of America, Citibank, and Wells Fargo do not report business cards on credit reports as long as there is nothing negative (missed payments, etc) to report.
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Ahh thank you for the clarification. That’s something I need to look in to more.
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If you have a spouse/partner, you could take turns opening cards with them and pool your spending.
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There are lots of good tricks out there. The general method I use is to find likely sources of detailed information and then read. A lot. The gems are hidden in plain sight. You just have to dig through a lot of dirt.
One source of information that I think is good is /r/churning. I've been churning for over 12 years so I haven't read much there, but I've heard it referenced several times and have glanced over it and think it probably is a good place to read up on it.
My guess is that you're going at it too hard and too fast. If you want to churn for a long period of time, you need to treat it like a marathon and not a sprint. Personally, I sit down about once a year, collect all of the good offers available then, and apply for them all at once. I then use the next several months to do the spending and collect the bonuses. I then put it away for nine months or so and do it all over again.
This year, I was approved for ten new credit cards and am mostly done collecting bonuses and rewards worth $8,165 to me. Last year I was approved for eight new credit cards and collected bonuses and rewards worth $5,530 to me.
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Another tip I would recommend is to track your card approval dates and closure dates. It's been very useful as banks have started adding in restrictions about X number of applications over the past Y years. If I hadn't been tracking them that would have made churning much harder
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Stay away from Chase, Cap One, Amex and Citi. Everyone else is open season and you likely will be approved. BBVA, US Bank, Wells, Bank of America....... Look at Doctor of Credit for their recommendations. Ignore Credit Karma's recommended cards.....I've been rejected from every one they say I'm about guaranteed to be approved for.
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I've been denied by Chase and Capital One and Barclays. Chase told me that I've opened too many credits cards recently and Capital One never gave me any explanations. I don't remember Barclays reason.
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Recent Data points-
Me:
US Bank denied a business card. That's a first.
Cap One denied a $500 Savor card at 12/24. Bummer.
Citi card.
Citi business card.
BoA denied at 11/24. The recon rep actually listed all of my recent accounts in the past 24 months. "Reapply in a year," I was told.
BoA website recommended a business card shortly after. Applied and received with a hard pull on personal report.
SO:
Barclays denied at 5/24. SO reconed and had to answer questions regarding income but did receive card. The rejection letter crossed in the mail and it read, "You have too many recent accounts."
Bottom line: Banks, especially the big ones, are getting more strict.
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when you guys say 12/24 does that mean that you can't have more than 12 cards opened in 24 months with any bank or that particular bank that you are applying with?
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when you guys say 12/24 does that mean that you can't have more than 12 cards opened in 24 months with any bank or that particular bank that you are applying with?
For Chase, it's 5/24 and it's all banks. (Honestly I've not seen reliable reports of other banks using an X/24 rule. They have lots of other restrictions that are reasonably well known, but not in that form.)
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when you guys say 12/24 does that mean that you can't have more than 12 cards opened in 24 months with any bank or that particular bank that you are applying with?
For Chase, it's 5/24 and it's all banks. (Honestly I've not seen reliable reports of other banks using an X/24 rule. They have lots of other restrictions that are reasonably well known, but not in that form.)
Thanks
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For those that were denied because of too many cc inquiries, how long is it recommended to wait before trying to apply for another offer?
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For those that were denied because of too many cc inquiries, how long is it recommended to wait before trying to apply for another offer?
Long, long ago, the rule of thumb was that inquiries become less important after 6 months and drop off after 2 years. I don't know if that rule of thumb has changed lately.
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Yeah we went at it pretty heavily at first before the Chase and Barclay rules were instituted. We’ve backed off the last year or so though. We’ll be under 5/24 pretty soon. I’ve opened several business cards in that time frame. Much of what we do these days is dictated by our travel plans over the next year. Chase points will come in handy for a big trip we are planning out west next year.
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Yeah we went at it pretty heavily at first before the Chase and Barclay rules were instituted. We’ve backed off the last year or so though. We’ll be under 5/24 pretty soon. I’ve opened several business cards in that time frame. Much of what we do these days is dictated by our travel plans over the next year. Chase points will come in handy for a big trip we are planning out west next year.
I take the opposite tack and ignore Chase completely because of their 5/24 rule. Yes, Chase regularly has some of the juiciest offers out there, but their 5/24 rule effectively makes people like me choose between Chase and everyone else. On a collective basis, everyone else has better offers than Chase. In other words AMEX+Citi+BofA+USBank+Barclays+etc. > Chase.
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How do you guys get to open business accounts? Are you all actually small business owners?
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How do you guys get to open business accounts? Are you all actually small business owners?
We have a small side hustle that is an officially registered business.
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How do you guys get to open business accounts? Are you all actually small business owners?
You will likely need a Tax ID number... some people say you can use your SS Number though.
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I use my SSN. In any given year I sell a few things online, and get a refund check from the gas company that I have to report as business income.
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If I may ask a churning-related question here, how long after you are approved for a CC does it take for the card to arrive in the mail? Specifically wondering about the Chase business cards.
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If I may ask a churning-related question here, how long after you are approved for a CC does it take for the card to arrive in the mail? Specifically wondering about the Chase business cards.
About a week I'd say. Chase Ink
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If I may ask a churning-related question here, how long after you are approved for a CC does it take for the card to arrive in the mail? Specifically wondering about the Chase business cards.
About a week I'd say. Chase Ink
Mine just said my application was in review, then randomly showed up in the mail a week later. No email first to say the card was approved.
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Two questions sort of related.
1. I have AMEX Delta card which has $0 intro fee but it's $95 after that. I don't use the card so I don't want to pay the fee. What should I do with it, cancel it or does AMEX have an option of downgrading?
2. I was about to apply for B of A cash back card but I'm appalled by their citizenship question. I have never heard of anyone asking this. Anyone else find this strange?
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I certainly have not been doing this as long as many here, but churning is far from dead. I don't have a count right now, but I believe I have opened somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-50 credit cards since I started around May of last year. The amount of cash and points I have extracted is absurd.
Stay away from Chase, Cap One, Amex and Citi. Everyone else is open season and you likely will be approved. BBVA, US Bank, Wells, Bank of America
Sorry but this is bad advise. AMEX and Citi are probably the most churner friendly issuers currently. Wells limits you to one bonus every 15 months (can do one biz and one personal). BoA is only loose with their business cards, same with US Bank who will not hesitate to shut you down completely if they don't like what they see.
For those that were denied because of too many cc inquiries, how long is it recommended to wait before trying to apply for another offer?
If you are getting these from everywhere, hold off applying for anything for 3 months and you should be good to go again.
Two questions sort of related.
1. I have AMEX Delta card which has $0 intro fee but it's $95 after that. I don't use the card so I don't want to pay the fee. What should I do with it, cancel it or does AMEX have an option of downgrading?
2. I was about to apply for B of A cash back card but I'm appalled by their citizenship question. I have never heard of anyone asking this. Anyone else find this strange?
1. With any AMEX card that you no longer want, wait for the AF to post and after it posts cancel the card. This will ensure you cancel the card in the 13th month which will keep AMEX happy (they don't like people cancelling in the first year). The AF will be refunded if you cancel the month it posts to your account.
2. You are churning credit cards. The objective is to make money off banks stupidity. Churn BoA more if they offend you.
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I certainly have not been doing this as long as many here, but churning is far from dead. I don't have a count right now, but I believe I have opened somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-50 credit cards since I started around May of last year. The amount of cash and points I have extracted is absurd.
How were you able to open so many cards? I started in March 2018, I opened maybe 5 cards and everyone is denying me now for too many cards opened.
1. With any AMEX card that you no longer want, wait for the AF to post and after it posts cancel the card. This will ensure you cancel the card in the 13th month which will keep AMEX happy (they don't like people cancelling in the first year). The AF will be refunded if you cancel the month it posts to your account.
2. You are churning credit cards. The objective is to make money off banks stupidity. Churn BoA more if they offend you.
What is AF?
What do you mean by "churn BoA more often if they offend you", I'm afraid to apply as I don't know how the information about citizenship is being used and by whom, why are they asking this? For what purpose?
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I certainly have not been doing this as long as many here, but churning is far from dead. I don't have a count right now, but I believe I have opened somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-50 credit cards since I started around May of last year. The amount of cash and points I have extracted is absurd.
How were you able to open so many cards? By applying. Not trying to be an ass or anything, but it really is that straightforward. If you know and abide by the rules each bank has regarding applications, it is as simple as applying and hoping for the best. I started in March 2018, I opened maybe 5 cards and everyone is denying me now for too many cards opened. Who is everyone? If it is only 1 or 2 issuers, try another. Yes, I have opened 43 cards in the past year or so, however, I have applied to closer to 80.
1. With any AMEX card that you no longer want, wait for the AF to post and after it posts cancel the card. This will ensure you cancel the card in the 13th month which will keep AMEX happy (they don't like people cancelling in the first year). The AF will be refunded if you cancel the month it posts to your account.
2. You are churning credit cards. The objective is to make money off banks stupidity. Churn BoA more if they offend you.
What is AF?
Annual fee
What do you mean by "churn BoA more often if they offend you", I'm afraid to apply as I don't know how the information about citizenship is being used and by whom, why are they asking this? For what purpose?
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about with this one. All I'm trying to say is, why are your feelings factoring into this at all? Why get offended by a bank? Churning is a math equation.
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I certainly have not been doing this as long as many here, but churning is far from dead. I don't have a count right now, but I believe I have opened somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-50 credit cards since I started around May of last year. The amount of cash and points I have extracted is absurd.
How were you able to open so many cards? By applying. Not trying to be an ass or anything, but it really is that straightforward. If you know and abide by the rules each bank has regarding applications, it is as simple as applying and hoping for the best. I started in March 2018, I opened maybe 5 cards and everyone is denying me now for too many cards opened. Who is everyone? If it is only 1 or 2 issuers, try another. Yes, I have opened 43 cards in the past year or so, however, I have applied to closer to 80.
Chase, CapitalOne, Citi (they didn't deny me but said that I don't qualify for any bonus points because I had a card with them 2 years ago), Barclays
1. With any AMEX card that you no longer want, wait for the AF to post and after it posts cancel the card. This will ensure you cancel the card in the 13th month which will keep AMEX happy (they don't like people cancelling in the first year). The AF will be refunded if you cancel the month it posts to your account.
2. You are churning credit cards. The objective is to make money off banks stupidity. Churn BoA more if they offend you.
What is AF?
Annual fee
So what happens if I close a month before rather than a month later? What do you mean by "they don't like it"? They don't like it and what happens?
What do you mean by "churn BoA more often if they offend you", I'm afraid to apply as I don't know how the information about citizenship is being used and by whom, why are they asking this? For what purpose?
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about with this one. All I'm trying to say is, why are your feelings factoring into this at all? Why get offended by a bank? Churning is a math equation.
I'm not offended, I'm reluctant to open a card with a bank that asks me for my citizenship info. This has nothing to do with churning. I was curious to know what others think of this bizarre question.
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@Catica
Not quoting so the chain doesn't get any longer lol.
For Chase, if you have opened more than 5 personal cards in the past 24 months, you will not be approved for anything from them. This is a hard rule that doesn't have any workarounds beyond pre-approval offers. Don't apply to anything else from them if you have over 5 new accounts in 24 month, you will be denied 100% of the time.
CapitalOne is a bit tricky. They are inquiry sensitive (somewhat), and if they think you will not be profitable (have a high credit score), they are less likely to approve you. You can only get 1 card from the every 6 months - business or personal. There are tricks that can be used to help get approved -- basically have a high utilization on a card to drop your credit score for a month and apply when your credit score drops. I recently was able to get an approval doing this.
Citi - most of their cards families have the once in 24 month language. There are ways around this. Targeted mailers from them often do not contain the bonus restriction language. AA Platinum cards being the most common. You can get these by creating an AA account, but if AA miles aren't useful to you, this won't help you much.
Barclays is very inquiry sensitive. People who establish an account with them and keep it for a while seem to have better luck. I have only gotten a business card from them -- I have not been successful getting a personal one so I can't really help with this one.
AMEX - by far the easiest of all. This is why you want to keep them happy. They like to see spend on their cards. They have language in their fine print saying they can take the bonus back if you close your account within the first year, and they do this regularly. In addition to this, they are likely to blacklist you if you close an account before the first year is up making it very difficult to get approvals from them. This is why it is critical to close in the 13th month after the annual fee posts. It will he refunded -- they have specific language in their T&C to this effect so there is literally no reason to close it before the fee posts.
For AMEX you can get 2 credit cards in 90 days with them. You can hold a total of 5 credit cards at a time with them. You can have any amount of charge cards with them. You can apply for the same card after 90 days with them. I have probably about 15 AMEX credit and charge cards currently.
Bank of America is another odd one. They like to see an established relationship (checking and/or savings account and/or investments with Merrill Edge). Even with all of those they are inquiry sensitive. I wouldn't think much of the citizenship question. It is common when establishing bank accounts (checking/savings) to be asked about your citizenship. Not so much for credit cards, but I guess I don't see why it matters. My wife is a non-citizen and has checking, savings, and 2 credit card accounts with BoA currently. It is just establishing a risk profile to determine how much, if any, credit to extend you. A non-citizen represents a higher risk.
BoA has CC rules as well, but they generally aren't much of a factor since you will be denied for other things before you hit their limits most likely. I believe they are -- 2 in 6 months, 3 in a year, 4 in two years maximum. This is for personal cards only -- business cards is anything goes. I've only been able to get 1 personal card from BoA and I am their ideal banking customer (lots of assets with Merrill Edge).
US Bank - inquiry sensitive and helps to have an established banking relationship with them. Easier than BoA but similar.
Navy Federal Credit Union - super easy, but I'm not sure how you will get an account as a non-citizen. Can get a new card every 90 days.
I think that sums up most of it.
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I've been able to get around limitations by also churning for checking account bonuses. Has allowed me to get several Suntrust, BBVA, Wells Fargo, BB&T, PNC cards I had otherwise would have been rejected for because of too many recent account openings. They see an established account with some deposits and it seems to help with approval for the cards. Then I can hit them for $500 bonus for checking account, and multiple credit card bonuses all at once. Then I repeat with my wife's info.
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I've been able to get around limitations by also churning for checking account bonuses. Has allowed me to get several Suntrust, BBVA, Wells Fargo, BB&T, PNC cards I had otherwise would have been rejected for because of too many recent account openings. They see an established account with some deposits and it seems to help with approval for the cards. Then I can hit them for $500 bonus for checking account, and multiple credit card bonuses all at once. Then I repeat with my wife's info.
How many of those actually have worthwhile CC bonuses though? Wells Fargo is good. I've looked at PNC and don't recall ever seeing anything worthwhile. SunTrust, BBVA, and BB&T I've never looked at their cards.
One other somewhat good one I left off my list that is super easy to get cards with is BMO Harris. I believe their current bonuses are effectively $350, $250, and $200. You can do 2 the same day and only get 1 hard pull. I did the $350 and $250 same day as did multiple other people in my area. I think everyone that attempted got approved, and we all have absurd numbers of inquiries and accounts.
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@Catica
Not quoting so the chain doesn't get any longer lol.
For Chase, if you have opened more than 5 personal cards in the past 24 months, you will not be approved for anything from them. This is a hard rule that doesn't have any workarounds beyond pre-approval offers. Don't apply to anything else from them if you have over 5 new accounts in 24 month, you will be denied 100% of the time.
I have 2 cards with Chase which I opened in the past year and when I applied for a 3rd one I didn't get approved. I got a letter in the mail stating that I opened too many cards recently. My husband was able to open 3.
CapitalOne is a bit tricky. They are inquiry sensitive (somewhat), and if they think you will not be profitable (have a high credit score), they are less likely to approve you. You can only get 1 card from the every 6 months - business or personal. There are tricks that can be used to help get approved -- basically have a high utilization on a card to drop your credit score for a month and apply when your credit score drops. I recently was able to get an approval doing this.
I don't have a single card with CapitalOne and got rejected on the first try without any explanation. I tried again with different card from them and the same thing happened so I have no idea what their problem is.
Citi - most of their cards families have the once in 24 month language. There are ways around this. Targeted mailers from them often do not contain the bonus restriction language. AA Platinum cards being the most common. You can get these by creating an AA account, but if AA miles aren't useful to you, this won't help you much.
I opened a card and was waiting for my bonus points and never got them. When I called them they said I had a card with them in the last 2 years and don't qualify for the bonus
Barclays is very inquiry sensitive. People who establish an account with them and keep it for a while seem to have better luck. I have only gotten a business card from them -- I have not been successful getting a personal one so I can't really help with this one.
Got a rejection without explanation. I never had Barclays card but have a savings account with them. So, again, no clue what their issues are
AMEX - by far the easiest of all. This is why you want to keep them happy. They like to see spend on their cards. They have language in their fine print saying they can take the bonus back if you close your account within the first year, and they do this regularly. In addition to this, they are likely to blacklist you if you close an account before the first year is up making it very difficult to get approvals from them. This is why it is critical to close in the 13th month after the annual fee posts. It will he refunded -- they have specific language in their T&C to this effect so there is literally no reason to close it before the fee posts.
I guess I'll wait before I cancel.
Bank of America is another odd one. They like to see an established relationship (checking and/or savings account and/or investments with Merrill Edge). Even with all of those they are inquiry sensitive. I wouldn't think much of the citizenship question. It is common when establishing bank accounts (checking/savings) to be asked about your citizenship. Not so much for credit cards, but I guess I don't see why it matters. My wife is a non-citizen and has checking, savings, and 2 credit card accounts with BoA currently. It is just establishing a risk profile to determine how much, if any, credit to extend you. A non-citizen represents a higher risk.
Maybe you don't care, but I do care a lot about who is profiling me and for what purpose. Once you respond "YES" to the citizenship question they ask if you have a dual citizenship and if so, they want to know which other countries you are a citizen of. Why do they need to know that??????????? And if it is so common when establishing bank accounts to be asked about citizenship, why have I never been asked this by any other bank??? I have opened many checking/savings accounts and credit cards and was never asked this question before. So I don't think it's so common as you say. And this is obviously fairy recent that they started asking this question because I have a checking account with B of A and was not asked this question when opening it back in 2008. I want to know why they ask these questions and how this information is being used. I do not want to be oblivious.
US Bank - inquiry sensitive and helps to have an established banking relationship with them. Easier than BoA but similar.
I don't think I tried US Bank
Navy Federal Credit Union - super easy, but I'm not sure how you will get an account as a non-citizen. Can get a new card every 90 days.
Never heard of Navy Federal Credit Card Union, so I obviously haven't tried them.
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I have opened many checking/savings accounts and credit cards and was never asked this question before. So I don't think it's so common as you say. And this is obviously fairy recent that they started asking this question because I have a checking account with B of A and was not asked this question when opening it back in 2008. I want to know why they ask these questions and how this information is being used. I do not want to be oblivious.
I have applied for 45 new checking accounts in the past year. Asking about citizenship is not uncommon. Like I said before, they are establishing a risk profile.
Not sure what more I can say, just trying to give you some insight since I have a fair amount of experience doing this in the past year, but churning is far from dead. Try and read up on the rules various banks have and perhaps you will have more success. Good luck!
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Maybe you don't care, but I do care a lot about who is profiling me and for what purpose. Once you respond "YES" to the citizenship question they ask if you have a dual citizenship and if so, they want to know which other countries you are a citizen of. Why do they need to know that??????????? And if it is so common when establishing bank accounts to be asked about citizenship, why have I never been asked this by any other bank??? I have opened many checking/savings accounts and credit cards and was never asked this question before. So I don't think it's so common as you say. And this is obviously fairy recent that they started asking this question because I have a checking account with B of A and was not asked this question when opening it back in 2008. I want to know why they ask these questions and how this information is being used. I do not want to be oblivious.
I'm not certain, but it may have to do with the "Know Your Customer" laws. In the US I think these were passed into law in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer
I understand the general profiling concern. But I'm curious, what does it matter if someone knows your citizenship or dual citizenship?
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Yeah we went at it pretty heavily at first before the Chase and Barclay rules were instituted. We’ve backed off the last year or so though. We’ll be under 5/24 pretty soon. I’ve opened several business cards in that time frame. Much of what we do these days is dictated by our travel plans over the next year. Chase points will come in handy for a big trip we are planning out west next year.
I take the opposite tack and ignore Chase completely because of their 5/24 rule. Yes, Chase regularly has some of the juiciest offers out there, but their 5/24 rule effectively makes people like me choose between Chase and everyone else. On a collective basis, everyone else has better offers than Chase. In other words AMEX+Citi+BofA+USBank+Barclays+etc. > Chase.
Well Barclays has the 6/24 rule. Cap One has denied me several times. Finally landed a Spark Biz card from them. Amex has denied me on a couple cards. I have quite a few cards from US Bank and BofA already. For the trip we are taking next year I have determined that Chase cards will benefit us best. Once I get done with this round of Chase again I'll try hitting up other cards starting next year.
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I don't churn because I don't want to compromise my ability to qualify for cards/ high limits. Personally I try not to open cards, by taking advantage of existing cards that offer 0% purchase/BT special promotions. I have at least 5 cards that offer 0% promos once or twice per year or more. I may not get sigh up bonuses, but I get a basically free loan for 12-24 months.
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I don't churn because I don't want to compromise my ability to qualify for cards/ high limits. Personally I try not to open cards, by taking advantage of existing cards that offer 0% purchase/BT special promotions. I have at least 5 cards that offer 0% promos once or twice per year or more. I may not get sigh up bonuses, but I get a basically free loan for 12-24 months.
Sign up bonuses trump interest free loans in just about every single situation. You may want to take a look at it. Also, having a high utilization on a 0% card will hamper your ability to get new cards more than (proper) churning will.
As a simple math exercise, let's say you have 100k of credit extended to you at 0% for 12 months across all your cards. Let's say you also put it in a 3% interest bearing account -- your net is $3k.
That much cash back can be exceeded quite easily from 5 CC SUBs converted to cash -- CIP, CIU or CIC, CIP2, Cap1 Savor or Venture, NFCU Flagship Rewards (or just about any other card with a SUB really).
I suspect my assumptions for credit extended and interest received are quite high as well which pushes the benefit even further to churning. I don't care either way, just saying that perhaps you should look into it and consider all options.
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I don't churn because I don't want to compromise my ability to qualify for cards/ high limits. Personally I try not to open cards, by taking advantage of existing cards that offer 0% purchase/BT special promotions. I have at least 5 cards that offer 0% promos once or twice per year or more. I may not get sigh up bonuses, but I get a basically free loan for 12-24 months.
Sign up bonuses trump interest free loans in just about every single situation. You may want to take a look at it. Also, having a high utilization on a 0% card will hamper your ability to get new cards more than (proper) churning will.
As a simple math exercise, let's say you have 100k of credit extended to you at 0% for 12 months across all your cards. Let's say you also put it in a 3% interest bearing account -- your net is $3k.
That much cash back can be exceeded quite easily from 5 CC SUBs converted to cash -- CIP, CIU or CIC, CIP2, Cap1 Savor or Venture, NFCU Flagship Rewards (or just about any other card with a SUB really).
I suspect my assumptions for credit extended and interest received are quite high as well which pushes the benefit even further to churning. I don't care either way, just saying that perhaps you should look into it and consider all options.
Oh I have no doubt it could earn me more. Perhaps I shouldn’t have chimed in on a churning thread; didn’t mean to go off-topic. I guess the main reason why I haven’t done churning is that I am already at the threshold in terms of average length of credit, and it’s much easier to fix a lower score because of utilization, than because of length of credit, which only time can fix.
Also, I have found ways to indefinitely carry on 0% interest opportunities. A combination of 0% balance transfers offers, and transferring my monthly balances between multiple cards that offer free balance transfers. But I eventually run into the same issue I would probably run into regarding churning, I simply don’t earn enough to get high enough limit to qualify for any real big earnings. But thank you for the information. Perhaps one day it will be a good fit for me.
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I have to send in proof of business name & address to Chase. There's not a single Chase Bank in my state, so I then have the option to mail or fax the information.
I expect the government to still be using mail and fax, but how is there not a way to submit this information online? I don't even know where to send a fax for free, and I'm not planning on waiting two weeks for snail mail.
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I have to send in proof of business name & address to Chase. There's not a single Chase Bank in my state, so I then have the option to mail or fax the information.
I expect the government to still be using mail and fax, but how is there not a way to submit this information online? I don't even know where to send a fax for free, and I'm not planning on waiting two weeks for snail mail.
There used to be email-to-fax programs out there that would let you send a couple of pages for free.
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There used to be email-to-fax programs out there that would let you send a couple of pages for free.
I use Tiny Fax for things like this. Not free, but nearly -- charged per page sent...don't recall how much but probably $0.50 or something per page. I think it has more to do with security than anything. Banks see a fax as more secure perhaps.
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Catica
The US is getting more and more intrusive. Unless you are the POTUS - then you don't have to disclose anything!
After 9 / 11, the country changed. "Foreigners" became more suspect - even though we all are descendants of recent immigrants.
And under the current POTUS the attitude towards foreigners has shifted to the negative.
I was in the Polish suburb of Chicago last week and overheard a Polish guy complaining because he was chewed out by some MAGA fuck for speaking - get this - Spanish!
Give it ten years and things will right themselves. Foreigners are the heart of the economy and business rules the USA!
MOD NOTE: Please keep politics to the off topic subforum. Cheers!
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OK, here is a summary of the my strategy for CC churning.
Chase is best but they have their 5/24 rule. But that doesn't apply to Chase business cards ** if you get them before you have 5/24 personal **
This strategy will get you the most cards in the shortest time and allow you to repeat it much sooner.
1. Get as many Chase business cards as possible. You don't need a tax number for these - just use your SS. And use your name for the business. If you have a company name they will want to verify all sorts of shit.
2. After getting all the Chase business cards you can / want, get the juicy Chase cards - 5 of them. After 5, you will have to wait 2 years. Keep the timing so once you are near meeting the spending requirements you already have a new card on the way. Most have a three month limit on spending enough to get the bonus. In general, spending is $1000 a month for 3 months.
3. Get as many other juicy personal cards as you can. Get them as fast as you can while meeting the spending requirements. There are few AA cards with NO spending requirements. The idea here is to get as many in the shortest amount of time - so you then will all be over the 24 month rule - in 24 months or less from now.
4. Only get non-Chase business cards that are not reported on your credit report for the next 2 years or so (until you have less than 5 cards within the last 24 months left on your credit report).
5. Once you are back to under 5/24, repeat.
In my relatives case, he spends $10K a month on cards for his business. So he applied for a new card every month after he had his 5 Chase cards. In that year he had 10 or so cards and met the spending bonus requirements.
So he had several Chase business cards, 5 personal Chase cards, and 10+ other bank cards - all in less than 2 years.
He has slowed down a bit and is getting only non-Chase business cards. He has to wait 22 months from his last personal card he received and he will be at 0/24.
He is still trying to figure out how the using the mileage and hotel points works. That is another side of churning. Anyway, he hasn't spent a dime on hotels or flights since starting churning.
** Tip: when applying just put down Sole Proprietorship rather than LLC or whatnot - even if you have an LLC. They won't ask for any paperwork. **
-
I've got a big purchase coming up (over $5,000) and I'm trying to figure out which card to use. I already have the Capital One Venture and Chase Sapphire Preferred. Any recommendations?
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I've got a big purchase coming up (over $5,000) and I'm trying to figure out which card to use. I already have the Capital One Venture and Chase Sapphire Preferred. Any recommendations?
How about Chase Ink Business Preferred?
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Ptf
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I've got a big purchase coming up (over $5,000) and I'm trying to figure out which card to use. I already have the Capital One Venture and Chase Sapphire Preferred. Any recommendations?
How about Chase Ink Business Preferred?
Doesn’t matter that I don’t own a business? Yes I read the previous posts but just want to confirm.
-
I've got a big purchase coming up (over $5,000) and I'm trying to figure out which card to use. I already have the Capital One Venture and Chase Sapphire Preferred. Any recommendations?
How about Chase Ink Business Preferred?
Doesn’t matter that I don’t own a business? Yes I read the previous posts but just want to confirm.
Per those who know much more than me on Reddit, all you need is to use your SSN for the EIN and your first & last name for the business name.
I started a sole proprietorship a month ago and applied for an EIN (received instantaneously from the IRS) and was able to get the card, though it took a few weeks. And I still haven't decided if I'm going to actually operate the business.
-
I've often thought about opening a Biz in my spouses name to gain access to a lot more CCs. I may try to open a card via the process you all discussed. I have a Biz so it's easy for me to apply.
On a different note my spouse is under 5/24 and I have been debating about weather to apply for the CSR or CSP. I've read a lot of back and forth about both cards but am still undecided. We don't travel internationally and not as often to maybe make the CSR card more valuable. We do have a trip coming up next year to visit some national parks but already have our Airbnb booked with a different card. Any thoughts, experiences to share?
-
OK, here is a summary of the my strategy for CC churning.
Chase is best but they have their 5/24 rule. But that doesn't apply to Chase business cards ** if you get them before you have 5/24 personal **
This strategy will get you the most cards in the shortest time and allow you to repeat it much sooner.
1. Get as many Chase business cards as possible. You don't need a tax number for these - just use your SS. And use your name for the business. If you have a company name they will want to verify all sorts of shit.
2. After getting all the Chase business cards you can / want, get the juicy Chase cards - 5 of them. After 5, you will have to wait 2 years. Keep the timing so once you are near meeting the spending requirements you already have a new card on the way. Most have a three month limit on spending enough to get the bonus. In general, spending is $1000 a month for 3 months.
3. Get as many other juicy personal cards as you can. Get them as fast as you can while meeting the spending requirements. There are few AA cards with NO spending requirements. The idea here is to get as many in the shortest amount of time - so you then will all be over the 24 month rule - in 24 months or less from now.
4. Only get non-Chase business cards that are not reported on your credit report for the next 2 years or so (until you have less than 5 cards within the last 24 months left on your credit report).
5. Once you are back to under 5/24, repeat.
In my relatives case, he spends $10K a month on cards for his business. So he applied for a new card every month after he had his 5 Chase cards. In that year he had 10 or so cards and met the spending bonus requirements.
So he had several Chase business cards, 5 personal Chase cards, and 10+ other bank cards - all in less than 2 years.
He has slowed down a bit and is getting only non-Chase business cards. He has to wait 22 months from his last personal card he received and he will be at 0/24.
He is still trying to figure out how the using the mileage and hotel points works. That is another side of churning. Anyway, he hasn't spent a dime on hotels or flights since starting churning.
** Tip: when applying just put down Sole Proprietorship rather than LLC or whatnot - even if you have an LLC. They won't ask for any paperwork. **
How do I check where I'm at with Chase in regards to 5/24 rule? I didn't know that I should have applied for Chase business cards first before the personal cards. Can I still do Chase business cards even though it looks like I maxed out my Chase personal cards?
-
OK, here is a summary of the my strategy for CC churning.
Chase is best but they have their 5/24 rule. But that doesn't apply to Chase business cards ** if you get them before you have 5/24 personal **
This strategy will get you the most cards in the shortest time and allow you to repeat it much sooner.
1. Get as many Chase business cards as possible. You don't need a tax number for these - just use your SS. And use your name for the business. If you have a company name they will want to verify all sorts of shit.
2. After getting all the Chase business cards you can / want, get the juicy Chase cards - 5 of them. After 5, you will have to wait 2 years. Keep the timing so once you are near meeting the spending requirements you already have a new card on the way. Most have a three month limit on spending enough to get the bonus. In general, spending is $1000 a month for 3 months.
3. Get as many other juicy personal cards as you can. Get them as fast as you can while meeting the spending requirements. There are few AA cards with NO spending requirements. The idea here is to get as many in the shortest amount of time - so you then will all be over the 24 month rule - in 24 months or less from now.
4. Only get non-Chase business cards that are not reported on your credit report for the next 2 years or so (until you have less than 5 cards within the last 24 months left on your credit report).
5. Once you are back to under 5/24, repeat.
In my relatives case, he spends $10K a month on cards for his business. So he applied for a new card every month after he had his 5 Chase cards. In that year he had 10 or so cards and met the spending bonus requirements.
So he had several Chase business cards, 5 personal Chase cards, and 10+ other bank cards - all in less than 2 years.
He has slowed down a bit and is getting only non-Chase business cards. He has to wait 22 months from his last personal card he received and he will be at 0/24.
He is still trying to figure out how the using the mileage and hotel points works. That is another side of churning. Anyway, he hasn't spent a dime on hotels or flights since starting churning.
** Tip: when applying just put down Sole Proprietorship rather than LLC or whatnot - even if you have an LLC. They won't ask for any paperwork. **
How do I check where I'm at with Chase in regards to 5/24 rule? I didn't know that I should have applied for Chase business cards first before the personal cards. Can I still do Chase business cards even though it looks like I maxed out my Chase personal cards?
your best bet is to pull your credit report and count how many accounts were opened in the past 2 years. They even list closed accounts, so you should get a full picture. A few of the CC companies will only report to 1 or 2 of the agencies (vs all 3), so make sure you pull all 3 to get the full picture.
Going forward, I would recommend keeping a spreadsheet of which cards you opened with which bank, when it was opened, and when it was closed. This allows me to see, at a glance, exactly where I stand.
-
OK, here is a summary of the my strategy for CC churning.
Chase is best but they have their 5/24 rule. But that doesn't apply to Chase business cards ** if you get them before you have 5/24 personal **
This strategy will get you the most cards in the shortest time and allow you to repeat it much sooner.
1. Get as many Chase business cards as possible. You don't need a tax number for these - just use your SS. And use your name for the business. If you have a company name they will want to verify all sorts of shit.
2. After getting all the Chase business cards you can / want, get the juicy Chase cards - 5 of them. After 5, you will have to wait 2 years. Keep the timing so once you are near meeting the spending requirements you already have a new card on the way. Most have a three month limit on spending enough to get the bonus. In general, spending is $1000 a month for 3 months.
3. Get as many other juicy personal cards as you can. Get them as fast as you can while meeting the spending requirements. There are few AA cards with NO spending requirements. The idea here is to get as many in the shortest amount of time - so you then will all be over the 24 month rule - in 24 months or less from now.
4. Only get non-Chase business cards that are not reported on your credit report for the next 2 years or so (until you have less than 5 cards within the last 24 months left on your credit report).
5. Once you are back to under 5/24, repeat.
In my relatives case, he spends $10K a month on cards for his business. So he applied for a new card every month after he had his 5 Chase cards. In that year he had 10 or so cards and met the spending bonus requirements.
So he had several Chase business cards, 5 personal Chase cards, and 10+ other bank cards - all in less than 2 years.
He has slowed down a bit and is getting only non-Chase business cards. He has to wait 22 months from his last personal card he received and he will be at 0/24.
He is still trying to figure out how the using the mileage and hotel points works. That is another side of churning. Anyway, he hasn't spent a dime on hotels or flights since starting churning.
** Tip: when applying just put down Sole Proprietorship rather than LLC or whatnot - even if you have an LLC. They won't ask for any paperwork. **
How do I check where I'm at with Chase in regards to 5/24 rule? I didn't know that I should have applied for Chase business cards first before the personal cards. Can I still do Chase business cards even though it looks like I maxed out my Chase personal cards?
your best bet is to pull your credit report and count how many accounts were opened in the past 2 years. They even list closed accounts, so you should get a full picture. A few of the CC companies will only report to 1 or 2 of the agencies (vs all 3), so make sure you pull all 3 to get the full picture.
Going forward, I would recommend keeping a spreadsheet of which cards you opened with which bank, when it was opened, and when it was closed. This allows me to see, at a glance, exactly where I stand.
Thanks. I just checked kreditkarma and I only have 4 Chase accounts opened and none closed within the past 5 years and I still can't get any more Chase cards (got denied recently). Is it safe for me to apply for Chase business card?
-
OK, here is a summary of the my strategy for CC churning.
Chase is best but they have their 5/24 rule. But that doesn't apply to Chase business cards ** if you get them before you have 5/24 personal **
This strategy will get you the most cards in the shortest time and allow you to repeat it much sooner.
1. Get as many Chase business cards as possible. You don't need a tax number for these - just use your SS. And use your name for the business. If you have a company name they will want to verify all sorts of shit.
2. After getting all the Chase business cards you can / want, get the juicy Chase cards - 5 of them. After 5, you will have to wait 2 years. Keep the timing so once you are near meeting the spending requirements you already have a new card on the way. Most have a three month limit on spending enough to get the bonus. In general, spending is $1000 a month for 3 months.
3. Get as many other juicy personal cards as you can. Get them as fast as you can while meeting the spending requirements. There are few AA cards with NO spending requirements. The idea here is to get as many in the shortest amount of time - so you then will all be over the 24 month rule - in 24 months or less from now.
4. Only get non-Chase business cards that are not reported on your credit report for the next 2 years or so (until you have less than 5 cards within the last 24 months left on your credit report).
5. Once you are back to under 5/24, repeat.
In my relatives case, he spends $10K a month on cards for his business. So he applied for a new card every month after he had his 5 Chase cards. In that year he had 10 or so cards and met the spending bonus requirements.
So he had several Chase business cards, 5 personal Chase cards, and 10+ other bank cards - all in less than 2 years.
He has slowed down a bit and is getting only non-Chase business cards. He has to wait 22 months from his last personal card he received and he will be at 0/24.
He is still trying to figure out how the using the mileage and hotel points works. That is another side of churning. Anyway, he hasn't spent a dime on hotels or flights since starting churning.
** Tip: when applying just put down Sole Proprietorship rather than LLC or whatnot - even if you have an LLC. They won't ask for any paperwork. **
How do I check where I'm at with Chase in regards to 5/24 rule? I didn't know that I should have applied for Chase business cards first before the personal cards. Can I still do Chase business cards even though it looks like I maxed out my Chase personal cards?
your best bet is to pull your credit report and count how many accounts were opened in the past 2 years. They even list closed accounts, so you should get a full picture. A few of the CC companies will only report to 1 or 2 of the agencies (vs all 3), so make sure you pull all 3 to get the full picture.
Going forward, I would recommend keeping a spreadsheet of which cards you opened with which bank, when it was opened, and when it was closed. This allows me to see, at a glance, exactly where I stand.
Thanks. I just checked kreditkarma and I only have 4 Chase accounts opened and none closed within the past 5 years and I still can't get any more Chase cards (got denied recently). Is it safe for me to apply for Chase business card?
Chase's 5/24 rule applies to all credit cards, not just Chase cards. If you have opened 5 new credit cards in the past 24 months from any bank (that's reported on your credit report - if it doesn't show up on your personal credit report, Chase will not see it - i.e. a lot of business cards), Chase will automatically deny you. Even if you do not have a single Chase card, it does not matter. They look at all of your accounts.
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Maybe you don't care, but I do care a lot about who is profiling me and for what purpose. Once you respond "YES" to the citizenship question they ask if you have a dual citizenship and if so, they want to know which other countries you are a citizen of. Why do they need to know that??????????? And if it is so common when establishing bank accounts to be asked about citizenship, why have I never been asked this by any other bank??? I have opened many checking/savings accounts and credit cards and was never asked this question before. So I don't think it's so common as you say. And this is obviously fairy recent that they started asking this question because I have a checking account with B of A and was not asked this question when opening it back in 2008. I want to know why they ask these questions and how this information is being used. I do not want to be oblivious.
I'm not certain, but it may have to do with the "Know Your Customer" laws. In the US I think these were passed into law in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer
I understand the general profiling concern. But I'm curious, what does it matter if someone knows your citizenship or dual citizenship?
Yep, it's about know your customer. It's an anti-money laundering thing. Certain countries have been flagged as at-risk for money laundering. They are just doing their due diligence, which is their right as a private company.
-
OK, here is a summary of the my strategy for CC churning.
Chase is best but they have their 5/24 rule. But that doesn't apply to Chase business cards ** if you get them before you have 5/24 personal **
This strategy will get you the most cards in the shortest time and allow you to repeat it much sooner.
1. Get as many Chase business cards as possible. You don't need a tax number for these - just use your SS. And use your name for the business. If you have a company name they will want to verify all sorts of shit.
2. After getting all the Chase business cards you can / want, get the juicy Chase cards - 5 of them. After 5, you will have to wait 2 years. Keep the timing so once you are near meeting the spending requirements you already have a new card on the way. Most have a three month limit on spending enough to get the bonus. In general, spending is $1000 a month for 3 months.
3. Get as many other juicy personal cards as you can. Get them as fast as you can while meeting the spending requirements. There are few AA cards with NO spending requirements. The idea here is to get as many in the shortest amount of time - so you then will all be over the 24 month rule - in 24 months or less from now.
4. Only get non-Chase business cards that are not reported on your credit report for the next 2 years or so (until you have less than 5 cards within the last 24 months left on your credit report).
5. Once you are back to under 5/24, repeat.
In my relatives case, he spends $10K a month on cards for his business. So he applied for a new card every month after he had his 5 Chase cards. In that year he had 10 or so cards and met the spending bonus requirements.
So he had several Chase business cards, 5 personal Chase cards, and 10+ other bank cards - all in less than 2 years.
He has slowed down a bit and is getting only non-Chase business cards. He has to wait 22 months from his last personal card he received and he will be at 0/24.
He is still trying to figure out how the using the mileage and hotel points works. That is another side of churning. Anyway, he hasn't spent a dime on hotels or flights since starting churning.
** Tip: when applying just put down Sole Proprietorship rather than LLC or whatnot - even if you have an LLC. They won't ask for any paperwork. **
How do I check where I'm at with Chase in regards to 5/24 rule? I didn't know that I should have applied for Chase business cards first before the personal cards. Can I still do Chase business cards even though it looks like I maxed out my Chase personal cards?
your best bet is to pull your credit report and count how many accounts were opened in the past 2 years. They even list closed accounts, so you should get a full picture. A few of the CC companies will only report to 1 or 2 of the agencies (vs all 3), so make sure you pull all 3 to get the full picture.
Going forward, I would recommend keeping a spreadsheet of which cards you opened with which bank, when it was opened, and when it was closed. This allows me to see, at a glance, exactly where I stand.
Thanks. I just checked kreditkarma and I only have 4 Chase accounts opened and none closed within the past 5 years and I still can't get any more Chase cards (got denied recently). Is it safe for me to apply for Chase business card?
Chase's 5/24 rule applies to all credit cards, not just Chase cards. If you have opened 5 new credit cards in the past 24 months from any bank (that's reported on your credit report - if it doesn't show up on your personal credit report, Chase will not see it - i.e. a lot of business cards), Chase will automatically deny you. Even if you do not have a single Chase card, it does not matter. They look at all of your accounts.
I see. But if I apply for Chase business card my personal accounts don't matter, right?
-
OK, here is a summary of the my strategy for CC churning.
Chase is best but they have their 5/24 rule. But that doesn't apply to Chase business cards ** if you get them before you have 5/24 personal **
This strategy will get you the most cards in the shortest time and allow you to repeat it much sooner.
1. Get as many Chase business cards as possible. You don't need a tax number for these - just use your SS. And use your name for the business. If you have a company name they will want to verify all sorts of shit.
2. After getting all the Chase business cards you can / want, get the juicy Chase cards - 5 of them. After 5, you will have to wait 2 years. Keep the timing so once you are near meeting the spending requirements you already have a new card on the way. Most have a three month limit on spending enough to get the bonus. In general, spending is $1000 a month for 3 months.
3. Get as many other juicy personal cards as you can. Get them as fast as you can while meeting the spending requirements. There are few AA cards with NO spending requirements. The idea here is to get as many in the shortest amount of time - so you then will all be over the 24 month rule - in 24 months or less from now.
4. Only get non-Chase business cards that are not reported on your credit report for the next 2 years or so (until you have less than 5 cards within the last 24 months left on your credit report).
5. Once you are back to under 5/24, repeat.
In my relatives case, he spends $10K a month on cards for his business. So he applied for a new card every month after he had his 5 Chase cards. In that year he had 10 or so cards and met the spending bonus requirements.
So he had several Chase business cards, 5 personal Chase cards, and 10+ other bank cards - all in less than 2 years.
He has slowed down a bit and is getting only non-Chase business cards. He has to wait 22 months from his last personal card he received and he will be at 0/24.
He is still trying to figure out how the using the mileage and hotel points works. That is another side of churning. Anyway, he hasn't spent a dime on hotels or flights since starting churning.
** Tip: when applying just put down Sole Proprietorship rather than LLC or whatnot - even if you have an LLC. They won't ask for any paperwork. **
How do I check where I'm at with Chase in regards to 5/24 rule? I didn't know that I should have applied for Chase business cards first before the personal cards. Can I still do Chase business cards even though it looks like I maxed out my Chase personal cards?
your best bet is to pull your credit report and count how many accounts were opened in the past 2 years. They even list closed accounts, so you should get a full picture. A few of the CC companies will only report to 1 or 2 of the agencies (vs all 3), so make sure you pull all 3 to get the full picture.
Going forward, I would recommend keeping a spreadsheet of which cards you opened with which bank, when it was opened, and when it was closed. This allows me to see, at a glance, exactly where I stand.
Thanks. I just checked kreditkarma and I only have 4 Chase accounts opened and none closed within the past 5 years and I still can't get any more Chase cards (got denied recently). Is it safe for me to apply for Chase business card?
Chase's 5/24 rule applies to all credit cards, not just Chase cards. If you have opened 5 new credit cards in the past 24 months from any bank (that's reported on your credit report - if it doesn't show up on your personal credit report, Chase will not see it - i.e. a lot of business cards), Chase will automatically deny you. Even if you do not have a single Chase card, it does not matter. They look at all of your accounts.
I see. But if I apply for Chase business card my personal accounts don't matter, right?
Most business cards do not report to your personal credit report, so they do not impact 5/24. I don't think Chase's do either (but don't hold me to that). I do believe Chase will still deny you for a business card if you are over 5/24 on your personal credit report, but I could be wrong as well. I think what he was trying to say is once you are under 5/24, open Chase business accounts first (as they won't count towards their 5/24 count). Then open Chase personal cards.
-
OK, here is a summary of the my strategy for CC churning.
Chase is best but they have their 5/24 rule. But that doesn't apply to Chase business cards ** if you get them before you have 5/24 personal **
This strategy will get you the most cards in the shortest time and allow you to repeat it much sooner.
1. Get as many Chase business cards as possible. You don't need a tax number for these - just use your SS. And use your name for the business. If you have a company name they will want to verify all sorts of shit.
2. After getting all the Chase business cards you can / want, get the juicy Chase cards - 5 of them. After 5, you will have to wait 2 years. Keep the timing so once you are near meeting the spending requirements you already have a new card on the way. Most have a three month limit on spending enough to get the bonus. In general, spending is $1000 a month for 3 months.
3. Get as many other juicy personal cards as you can. Get them as fast as you can while meeting the spending requirements. There are few AA cards with NO spending requirements. The idea here is to get as many in the shortest amount of time - so you then will all be over the 24 month rule - in 24 months or less from now.
4. Only get non-Chase business cards that are not reported on your credit report for the next 2 years or so (until you have less than 5 cards within the last 24 months left on your credit report).
5. Once you are back to under 5/24, repeat.
In my relatives case, he spends $10K a month on cards for his business. So he applied for a new card every month after he had his 5 Chase cards. In that year he had 10 or so cards and met the spending bonus requirements.
So he had several Chase business cards, 5 personal Chase cards, and 10+ other bank cards - all in less than 2 years.
He has slowed down a bit and is getting only non-Chase business cards. He has to wait 22 months from his last personal card he received and he will be at 0/24.
He is still trying to figure out how the using the mileage and hotel points works. That is another side of churning. Anyway, he hasn't spent a dime on hotels or flights since starting churning.
** Tip: when applying just put down Sole Proprietorship rather than LLC or whatnot - even if you have an LLC. They won't ask for any paperwork. **
How do I check where I'm at with Chase in regards to 5/24 rule? I didn't know that I should have applied for Chase business cards first before the personal cards. Can I still do Chase business cards even though it looks like I maxed out my Chase personal cards?
your best bet is to pull your credit report and count how many accounts were opened in the past 2 years. They even list closed accounts, so you should get a full picture. A few of the CC companies will only report to 1 or 2 of the agencies (vs all 3), so make sure you pull all 3 to get the full picture.
Going forward, I would recommend keeping a spreadsheet of which cards you opened with which bank, when it was opened, and when it was closed. This allows me to see, at a glance, exactly where I stand.
Thanks. I just checked kreditkarma and I only have 4 Chase accounts opened and none closed within the past 5 years and I still can't get any more Chase cards (got denied recently). Is it safe for me to apply for Chase business card?
Chase's 5/24 rule applies to all credit cards, not just Chase cards. If you have opened 5 new credit cards in the past 24 months from any bank (that's reported on your credit report - if it doesn't show up on your personal credit report, Chase will not see it - i.e. a lot of business cards), Chase will automatically deny you. Even if you do not have a single Chase card, it does not matter. They look at all of your accounts.
I see. But if I apply for Chase business card my personal accounts don't matter, right?
Most business cards do not report to your personal credit report, so they do not impact 5/24. I don't think Chase's do either (but don't hold me to that). I do believe Chase will still deny you for a business card if you are over 5/24 on your personal credit report, but I could be wrong as well. I think what he was trying to say is once you are under 5/24, open Chase business accounts first (as they won't count towards their 5/24 count). Then open Chase personal cards.
Yes, I see that he meant open business first then personal but that's too late for me now. Is there any negative impact in trying to apply and being denied? Do they check my credit report when I apply for business card?
-
OK, here is a summary of the my strategy for CC churning.
Chase is best but they have their 5/24 rule. But that doesn't apply to Chase business cards ** if you get them before you have 5/24 personal **
This strategy will get you the most cards in the shortest time and allow you to repeat it much sooner.
1. Get as many Chase business cards as possible. You don't need a tax number for these - just use your SS. And use your name for the business. If you have a company name they will want to verify all sorts of shit.
2. After getting all the Chase business cards you can / want, get the juicy Chase cards - 5 of them. After 5, you will have to wait 2 years. Keep the timing so once you are near meeting the spending requirements you already have a new card on the way. Most have a three month limit on spending enough to get the bonus. In general, spending is $1000 a month for 3 months.
3. Get as many other juicy personal cards as you can. Get them as fast as you can while meeting the spending requirements. There are few AA cards with NO spending requirements. The idea here is to get as many in the shortest amount of time - so you then will all be over the 24 month rule - in 24 months or less from now.
4. Only get non-Chase business cards that are not reported on your credit report for the next 2 years or so (until you have less than 5 cards within the last 24 months left on your credit report).
5. Once you are back to under 5/24, repeat.
In my relatives case, he spends $10K a month on cards for his business. So he applied for a new card every month after he had his 5 Chase cards. In that year he had 10 or so cards and met the spending bonus requirements.
So he had several Chase business cards, 5 personal Chase cards, and 10+ other bank cards - all in less than 2 years.
He has slowed down a bit and is getting only non-Chase business cards. He has to wait 22 months from his last personal card he received and he will be at 0/24.
He is still trying to figure out how the using the mileage and hotel points works. That is another side of churning. Anyway, he hasn't spent a dime on hotels or flights since starting churning.
** Tip: when applying just put down Sole Proprietorship rather than LLC or whatnot - even if you have an LLC. They won't ask for any paperwork. **
How do I check where I'm at with Chase in regards to 5/24 rule? I didn't know that I should have applied for Chase business cards first before the personal cards. Can I still do Chase business cards even though it looks like I maxed out my Chase personal cards?
your best bet is to pull your credit report and count how many accounts were opened in the past 2 years. They even list closed accounts, so you should get a full picture. A few of the CC companies will only report to 1 or 2 of the agencies (vs all 3), so make sure you pull all 3 to get the full picture.
Going forward, I would recommend keeping a spreadsheet of which cards you opened with which bank, when it was opened, and when it was closed. This allows me to see, at a glance, exactly where I stand.
Thanks. I just checked kreditkarma and I only have 4 Chase accounts opened and none closed within the past 5 years and I still can't get any more Chase cards (got denied recently). Is it safe for me to apply for Chase business card?
Chase's 5/24 rule applies to all credit cards, not just Chase cards. If you have opened 5 new credit cards in the past 24 months from any bank (that's reported on your credit report - if it doesn't show up on your personal credit report, Chase will not see it - i.e. a lot of business cards), Chase will automatically deny you. Even if you do not have a single Chase card, it does not matter. They look at all of your accounts.
I see. But if I apply for Chase business card my personal accounts don't matter, right?
Most business cards do not report to your personal credit report, so they do not impact 5/24. I don't think Chase's do either (but don't hold me to that). I do believe Chase will still deny you for a business card if you are over 5/24 on your personal credit report, but I could be wrong as well. I think what he was trying to say is once you are under 5/24, open Chase business accounts first (as they won't count towards their 5/24 count). Then open Chase personal cards.
Yes, I see that he meant open business first then personal but that's too late for me now. Is there any negative impact in trying to apply and being denied? Do they check my credit report when I apply for business card?
I think most banks will pull your personal credit report when applying for a business card. If you apply for cards and are denied, there is still the inquiry that shows up on your credit report from the bank that you applied to. Inquiries do not have a huge impact on your credit report, but having a lot can bring your score down some.
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OK, here is a summary of the my strategy for CC churning.
Chase is best but they have their 5/24 rule. But that doesn't apply to Chase business cards ** if you get them before you have 5/24 personal **
This strategy will get you the most cards in the shortest time and allow you to repeat it much sooner.
1. Get as many Chase business cards as possible. You don't need a tax number for these - just use your SS. And use your name for the business. If you have a company name they will want to verify all sorts of shit.
2. After getting all the Chase business cards you can / want, get the juicy Chase cards - 5 of them. After 5, you will have to wait 2 years. Keep the timing so once you are near meeting the spending requirements you already have a new card on the way. Most have a three month limit on spending enough to get the bonus. In general, spending is $1000 a month for 3 months.
3. Get as many other juicy personal cards as you can. Get them as fast as you can while meeting the spending requirements. There are few AA cards with NO spending requirements. The idea here is to get as many in the shortest amount of time - so you then will all be over the 24 month rule - in 24 months or less from now.
4. Only get non-Chase business cards that are not reported on your credit report for the next 2 years or so (until you have less than 5 cards within the last 24 months left on your credit report).
5. Once you are back to under 5/24, repeat.
In my relatives case, he spends $10K a month on cards for his business. So he applied for a new card every month after he had his 5 Chase cards. In that year he had 10 or so cards and met the spending bonus requirements.
So he had several Chase business cards, 5 personal Chase cards, and 10+ other bank cards - all in less than 2 years.
He has slowed down a bit and is getting only non-Chase business cards. He has to wait 22 months from his last personal card he received and he will be at 0/24.
He is still trying to figure out how the using the mileage and hotel points works. That is another side of churning. Anyway, he hasn't spent a dime on hotels or flights since starting churning.
** Tip: when applying just put down Sole Proprietorship rather than LLC or whatnot - even if you have an LLC. They won't ask for any paperwork. **
How do I check where I'm at with Chase in regards to 5/24 rule? I didn't know that I should have applied for Chase business cards first before the personal cards. Can I still do Chase business cards even though it looks like I maxed out my Chase personal cards?
your best bet is to pull your credit report and count how many accounts were opened in the past 2 years. They even list closed accounts, so you should get a full picture. A few of the CC companies will only report to 1 or 2 of the agencies (vs all 3), so make sure you pull all 3 to get the full picture.
Going forward, I would recommend keeping a spreadsheet of which cards you opened with which bank, when it was opened, and when it was closed. This allows me to see, at a glance, exactly where I stand.
Thanks. I just checked kreditkarma and I only have 4 Chase accounts opened and none closed within the past 5 years and I still can't get any more Chase cards (got denied recently). Is it safe for me to apply for Chase business card?
Chase's 5/24 rule applies to all credit cards, not just Chase cards. If you have opened 5 new credit cards in the past 24 months from any bank (that's reported on your credit report - if it doesn't show up on your personal credit report, Chase will not see it - i.e. a lot of business cards), Chase will automatically deny you. Even if you do not have a single Chase card, it does not matter. They look at all of your accounts.
I see. But if I apply for Chase business card my personal accounts don't matter, right?
Most business cards do not report to your personal credit report, so they do not impact 5/24. I don't think Chase's do either (but don't hold me to that). I do believe Chase will still deny you for a business card if you are over 5/24 on your personal credit report, but I could be wrong as well. I think what he was trying to say is once you are under 5/24, open Chase business accounts first (as they won't count towards their 5/24 count). Then open Chase personal cards.
Yes, I see that he meant open business first then personal but that's too late for me now. Is there any negative impact in trying to apply and being denied? Do they check my credit report when I apply for business card?
I think most banks will pull your personal credit report when applying for a business card. If you apply for cards and are denied, there is still the inquiry that shows up on your credit report from the bank that you applied to. Inquiries do not have a huge impact on your credit report, but having a lot can bring your score down some.
But does the fact that I already have 5 personal cards with Chase will cause them to deny me for business card?
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When were the 5 Chase cards opened? Within the last 2 years? Then yes, Chase will deny you for a business card (at least that is my understanding). If you have opened 5 new cards within the past 2 years, from Chase or any other back combined, then Chase will automatically deny you if you try to open any personal or business cards. 5/24 applies to both Chase personal and business cards.
https://www.doctorofcredit.com/chase-524-rule-explained-detail-need-know/ (https://www.doctorofcredit.com/chase-524-rule-explained-detail-need-know/)
https://www.doctorofcredit.com/18-things-everybody-should-know-about-chase/ (https://www.doctorofcredit.com/18-things-everybody-should-know-about-chase/)
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I have Amex Hilton Honors Business card. The bonus points for spending $3000 in the first 3 months just posted. The card has $95 annual fee. Does anyone know if canceling the card right immediately after the fee posted will case them to take away the points?
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I have Amex Hilton Honors Business card. The bonus points for spending $3000 in the first 3 months just posted. The card has $95 annual fee. Does anyone know if canceling the card right immediately after the fee posted will case them to take away the points?
Why cancel right away? Why not just wait for the 11th month and ask them to cancel or downgrade the card to the no annual fee card in their lineup (if they have one)?
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I have Amex Hilton Honors Business card. The bonus points for spending $3000 in the first 3 months just posted. The card has $95 annual fee. Does anyone know if canceling the card right immediately after the fee posted will case them to take away the points?
Why cancel right away? Why not just wait for the 11th month and ask them to cancel or downgrade the card to the no annual fee card in their lineup (if they have one)?
Because I won't get a refund of annual fee
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I have Amex Hilton Honors Business card. The bonus points for spending $3000 in the first 3 months just posted. The card has $95 annual fee. Does anyone know if canceling the card right immediately after the fee posted will case them to take away the points?
Why cancel right away? Why not just wait for the 11th month and ask them to cancel or downgrade the card to the no annual fee card in their lineup (if they have one)?
Because I won't get a refund of annual fee
Oops misread what you were asking. My bad
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I have Amex Hilton Honors Business card. The bonus points for spending $3000 in the first 3 months just posted. The card has $95 annual fee. Does anyone know if canceling the card right immediately after the fee posted will case them to take away the points?
If the points make it into your Hilton Honors account, probably not.
They will possibly blacklist you from any more AMEX cards, and they definitely will not refund you the $95.
That is my general opinion based on experience, but I have no direct data to support it.
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I have Amex Hilton Honors Business card. The bonus points for spending $3000 in the first 3 months just posted. The card has $95 annual fee. Does anyone know if canceling the card right immediately after the fee posted will case them to take away the points?
If the points make it into your Hilton Honors account, probably not.
They will possibly blacklist you from any more AMEX cards, and they definitely will not refund you the $95.
That is my general opinion based on experience, but I have no direct data to support it.
They refunded the fee on another card I just canceled after the fee posted. I canceled the month it posted, which was the 13th month of having the card. That card had first year fee waved though, but the Hilton Honors doesn't so the fee posted after having the card for a month. So I wasn't sure if the same applied in this case.
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I have Amex Hilton Honors Business card. The bonus points for spending $3000 in the first 3 months just posted. The card has $95 annual fee. Does anyone know if canceling the card right immediately after the fee posted will case them to take away the points?
If the points make it into your Hilton Honors account, probably not.
They will possibly blacklist you from any more AMEX cards, and they definitely will not refund you the $95.
That is my general opinion based on experience, but I have no direct data to support it.
They refunded the fee on another card I just canceled after the fee posted. I canceled the month it posted, which was the 13th month of having the card. That card had first year fee waved though, but the Hilton Honors doesn't so the fee posted after having the card for a month. So I wasn't sure if the same applied in this case.
That's a bit different as you had the other card for 12+ months. Opening a card, grabbing the points and closing immediately to try and void the annual fee is definitely a good way to get yourself blacklisted. Personally I would just pay the annual fee.
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I have Amex Hilton Honors Business card. The bonus points for spending $3000 in the first 3 months just posted. The card has $95 annual fee. Does anyone know if canceling the card right immediately after the fee posted will case them to take away the points?
If the points make it into your Hilton Honors account, probably not.
They will possibly blacklist you from any more AMEX cards, and they definitely will not refund you the $95.
That is my general opinion based on experience, but I have no direct data to support it.
They refunded the fee on another card I just canceled after the fee posted. I canceled the month it posted, which was the 13th month of having the card. That card had first year fee waved though, but the Hilton Honors doesn't so the fee posted after having the card for a month. So I wasn't sure if the same applied in this case.
That's a bit different as you had the other card for 12+ months. Opening a card, grabbing the points and closing immediately to try and void the annual fee is definitely a good way to get yourself blacklisted. Personally I would just pay the annual fee.
I will do that. But it should be OK to cancel next year when they hit me with the fee again, right?
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I have Amex Hilton Honors Business card. The bonus points for spending $3000 in the first 3 months just posted. The card has $95 annual fee. Does anyone know if canceling the card right immediately after the fee posted will case them to take away the points?
If the points make it into your Hilton Honors account, probably not.
They will possibly blacklist you from any more AMEX cards, and they definitely will not refund you the $95.
That is my general opinion based on experience, but I have no direct data to support it.
They refunded the fee on another card I just canceled after the fee posted. I canceled the month it posted, which was the 13th month of having the card. That card had first year fee waved though, but the Hilton Honors doesn't so the fee posted after having the card for a month. So I wasn't sure if the same applied in this case.
That's a bit different as you had the other card for 12+ months. Opening a card, grabbing the points and closing immediately to try and void the annual fee is definitely a good way to get yourself blacklisted. Personally I would just pay the annual fee.
I will do that. But it should be OK to cancel next year when they hit me with the fee again, right?
Most people try to avoid the annual fee on the second year. There are multiple ways to do it. Canceling is one of the that works pretty well. Sometimes you can ask for retention offers and get it waived. Downgrading or product changing can work. Sometimes (rarely IMHO) it can be worth keeping and paying the fee if the ongoing benefits are worth it to you.
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I opened a Delta Amex card in June this year and already got 60K points for 2K spend. Later that month, I received another Delta Amex offer by mail: this time, 70K miles for 2K spend. I tried to apply for the second card while the first card was still open, and the application was cancelled (they didn't pull credit). Called reconsideration line and they said it was because I already had another card. They also said that if i apply for another card I may not be eligible for bonus. So I closed the first Delta card immediately and will try to apply for a second card again using the same offer for 70K. Has anybody tried to do the same with Delta cards? There is no lifetime language in either offer btw. I hope that if i am not eligible for a bonus, they will either cancel my application again or give me a warning message that i will not receive the miles.
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I opened a Delta Amex card in June this year and already got 60K points for 2K spend. Later that month, I received another Delta Amex offer by mail: this time, 70K miles for 2K spend. I tried to apply for the second card while the first card was still open, and the application was cancelled (they didn't pull credit). Called reconsideration line and they said it was because I already had another card. They also said that if i apply for another card I may not be eligible for bonus. So I closed the first Delta card immediately and will try to apply for a second card again using the same offer for 70K. Has anybody tried to do the same with Delta cards? There is no lifetime language in either offer btw. I hope that if i am not eligible for a bonus, they will either cancel my application again or give me a warning message that i will not receive the miles.
As long as the lifetime language is not there, you should get the bonus.
However, if you are not eligible for whatever reason, they will not cancel your application for that reason. They will not give you any warning message. They will let you spend the required amount. And then they will not give you the bonus.
You can always ask via chat after getting the card in the mail to be sure you'll qualify before going through the spend.
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I have Amex Hilton Honors Business card. The bonus points for spending $3000 in the first 3 months just posted. The card has $95 annual fee. Does anyone know if canceling the card right immediately after the fee posted will case them to take away the points?
If the points make it into your Hilton Honors account, probably not.
They will possibly blacklist you from any more AMEX cards, and they definitely will not refund you the $95.
That is my general opinion based on experience, but I have no direct data to support it.
They refunded the fee on another card I just canceled after the fee posted. I canceled the month it posted, which was the 13th month of having the card. That card had first year fee waved though, but the Hilton Honors doesn't so the fee posted after having the card for a month. So I wasn't sure if the same applied in this case.
That's a bit different as you had the other card for 12+ months. Opening a card, grabbing the points and closing immediately to try and void the annual fee is definitely a good way to get yourself blacklisted. Personally I would just pay the annual fee.
I will do that. But it should be OK to cancel next year when they hit me with the fee again, right?
Yes, cancelling next year will be no problem. You'll be refunded your annual fee if you cancel the card within 30 days of when the fee hits.
Especially for Amex cards, it's always recommended to avoid cancelling their cards in the first 12 months.
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So let me get this straight... because this is new information for me. I applied for the Capitalone Savor Card this year and got their $500 cashback bonus for spending $3k in 3 months. This card has a $95 annual fee that is waived for the first year. My plan was to cancel in month 11. This is a bad idea? I should just pay the fee and cancel in the 23rd month to stay in some sort of good standing with them?
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So let me get this straight... because this is new information for me. I applied for the Capitalone Savor Card this year and got their $500 cashback bonus for spending $3k in 3 months. This card has a $95 annual fee that is waived for the first year. My plan was to cancel in month 11. This is a bad idea? I should just pay the fee and cancel in the 23rd month to stay in some sort of good standing with them?
No, you cancel in month 13, just after the fee hits. The fee is refunded.
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So let me get this straight... because this is new information for me. I applied for the Capitalone Savor Card this year and got their $500 cashback bonus for spending $3k in 3 months. This card has a $95 annual fee that is waived for the first year. My plan was to cancel in month 11. This is a bad idea? I should just pay the fee and cancel in the 23rd month to stay in some sort of good standing with them?
No, you cancel in month 13, just after the fee hits. The fee is refunded.
Or downgrade to the Savor One, which has no annual fee, rather than cancel.
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So let me get this straight... because this is new information for me. I applied for the Capitalone Savor Card this year and got their $500 cashback bonus for spending $3k in 3 months. This card has a $95 annual fee that is waived for the first year. My plan was to cancel in month 11. This is a bad idea? I should just pay the fee and cancel in the 23rd month to stay in some sort of good standing with them?
I think you may be confused. The original question was about cancelling the card in the first month, right after hitting the minimum spend, and then trying to get the annual fee refunded on a card that didn't have the annual fee waived the first year.