Communications & Tech - The ISP, VoIP and Cellphone Superguide

[Daley]

Yes, we don't use data and don't particularly feel like getting hooked on it, although part of me wants to at least have the option for it in the future, especially for my hope business purposes.

I didn't think of Airvoice because I missed that they were an ATT MVNO. That would put us at $60, versus $49 for Ting. So $11 per month; for Ting I was looking at old-school blackberry-style Kyocera Brio https://ting.com/devices/Kyocera-Brio for $70. But we'd rather keep our phones, which are nothing special but probably won't be worse than the Brio, and who knows, in a year we may want to upgrade to a smartphone (or two).

I'd still recommend alternative messaging like Kik and e-mail to SMS to keep costs lower, but that requires data and phones that support it. I'd also recommend a VoIP home phone line and restricting most of your calls to when you're home, that'll eliminate a lot as well.

Yes, these are definitely on my to-do list, but lower down - right now, saving an extra $40-50 / month from our current plan is the main priority. I really appreciate all your advice in this thread, and I see future savings on the horizon as I tackle each thing.

Looks like you've got it squared, then.

Glad to have helped. :)

[Z]

Straight talk also offers a BYOD plan that would fit your needs.  1000 minutes, 1000 texts, 30mb, $30/month. 

[Daley]

Straight talk also offers a BYOD plan that would fit your needs.  1000 minutes, 1000 texts, 30mb, $30/month.

No offense, Z, but as a former América Móvil customer? There's a reason why I downplay their services. I've already highlighted questionable practices, lousy support and their own craptastic terms and conditions, but I've never really wanted to come right out and say what I'm about to in this thread...

Frankly, I would rather poke my own eyes out than seriously recommend NET10, Tracfone, or Straighttalk (and Simple Mobile since learning of their acquisition in May of this year) to anyone here. I'm here to try and help people, not make them hostile enemies that curse and spit on the ground I walk on.

I try to walk the line and err towards frugal with this guide, not cheap. $5 extra a month for English speaking support (and to avoid a company with dubious ethical business practices and billing habits) is a small price to pay.

[Z]

Straight talk also offers a BYOD plan that would fit your needs.  1000 minutes, 1000 texts, 30mb, $30/month.

No offense, Z, but as a former América Móvil customer? There's a reason why I downplay their services. I've already highlighted questionable practices, lousy support and their own craptastic terms and conditions, but I've never really wanted to come right out and say what I'm about to in this thread...

Frankly, I would rather poke my own eyes out than seriously recommend NET10, Tracfone, or Straighttalk to anyone here. I'm here to try and help people, not make them hostile enemies that curse and spit on the ground I walk on.

I try to walk the line and err towards frugal with this guide, not cheap. $5 extra a month for English speaking support (and to avoid a company with dubious ethical business practices and billing habits) is a small price to pay.

I've never had a problem personally.  Thanks for sharing.

[Daley]

I've never had a problem personally.  Thanks for sharing.

I'm glad you've never had any real problems with them, but I'd probably call you lucky more than anything. I would be comfortable stating that they're probably one of the highest profile companies that helped perpetuate the stigma of prepaid wireless as nothing more than burner phones in this country for the past decade, and there's good reason for it.

[Jamesqf]

I'm glad you've never had any real problems with them, but I'd probably call you lucky more than anything. I would be comfortable stating that they're probably one of the highest profile companies that helped perpetuate the stigma of prepaid wireless as nothing more than burner phones in this country for the past decade, and there's good reason for it.

Haven't had a problem with them either.  Seems pretty cheap - works out to well under $10/month for me - and while there are a number of places I go where I don't get service, other people with much more expensive phones/plans don't get service there either.  Would be interested to know why you think they have terrible phones, though.  About my only complaint is that it's hard to see the screen in sunlight, and I have the same problem with every other LCD device I use.

[Daley]

terrible phones

You said that, not me. I called the company, their support, and their business practices crummy and as such labeled them as one of the main reasons prepaid was so hindered and reviled in this country for so long as something only drug dealers and poor people used. That said, a lot of their feature phones are pretty crappy, too, especially for their lack of standard GSM firmware making them pretty worthless for use outside of their respective sub-providers... but nobody makes good feature phones anymore.

[Jamesqf]

terrible phones

You said that, not me.

Have to disagree, but back at the start of this thread (third post, I think) you wrote

There's also Net10/TracPhone/StraightTalk (America Movil) which isn't the cheapest, and support can be a nightmare unless si tu habla español. Additionally, they have terrible phones,

I admit I'm pretty ignorant about the whole cell phone thing, and in fact wouldn't even have one if the phone company hadn't raised the price of my land line from $20 to over $30/month.

[Daley]

Have to disagree, but back at the start of this thread (third post, I think) you wrote

There's also Net10/TracPhone/StraightTalk (America Movil) which isn't the cheapest, and support can be a nightmare unless si tu habla español. Additionally, they have terrible phones,

My apologies, then. I'd forgotten that I'd made commentary on their phone quality lo those months ago. My memory might not always be on point, but aren't you glad I'm consistent with my advice unless I have good reason to change my opinion?

I admit I'm pretty ignorant about the whole cell phone thing, and in fact wouldn't even have one if the phone company hadn't raised the price of my land line from $20 to over $30/month.

That's why a stable internet connection and a VoIP account are worth their weight in gold. :)

[Jamesqf]

My apologies, then. I'd forgotten that I'd made commentary on their phone quality lo those months ago. My memory might not always be on point, but aren't you glad I'm consistent with my advice unless I have good reason to change my opinion?

Yep.  But I like understanding the whys of it.

That's why a stable internet connection and a VoIP account are worth their weight in gold. :)

I've never really understood the whole VoIP thing.  Sure, if you have friends/family in other countries, and make regularly scheduled calls, it'd be worth it, but for POTS?  To make a call when I'm not working, I'd first have to boot up my system.  And what if someone wants to call me when I'm not working?  Which, believe it or not, is the majority of the day.

[Daley]

Yep.  But I like understanding the whys of it.

Fair enough. All the questions answered now?

By the way, no matter how many minutes a month you're getting via Tracfone at under $10, you'd get more for less at P'tel. Of course, you'd need good Sprint reception in your area.... just some food for thought.

I've never really understood the whole VoIP thing.  Sure, if you have friends/family in other countries, and make regularly scheduled calls, it'd be worth it, but for POTS?  To make a call when I'm not working, I'd first have to boot up my system.  And what if someone wants to call me when I'm not working?  Which, believe it or not, is the majority of the day.

Aah, I understand your resistance to VoIP, you misunderstand the technology I speak of and its execution. You're thinking of services like Skype where you gotta use a computer and a headset to talk to people.

That's not how a good VoIP company works. First, a good VoIP company will be providing you a traditional POTS system telephone number and routing your calls in and out through the traditional telephone infrastructure from the internet. There's also these little boxes called Analog Telephone Adapters, or ATAs, that have two jacks on them: one for an analog phone jack, one for a CAT5/6 ethernet jack. These things aren't very power hungry, and they stay on so long as you have electricity to the house and a live internet connection. You connect your old home telephone equipment up to this little box and you just use it like your old home land line! Dialing's the same, ringing, the whole nine. Most ATAs also have enough off-hook line and ring power to power at least a couple three modern phones, and so long as the house land line wiring is physically disconnected from the box and receiving no line power from the telco, you could actually just plug that ATA into one of the wall outlets to get phone access to other rooms without using a multi-handset wireless home phone.

VOIPo Usually runs a little under $7 a month for new customers when you buy two years up front, and they provide the ATA for you for free, port your number for free if you so desire, and provide you with 5000 minutes of talk time a month in the US and Canada for that money with 1¢ a minute overage costs (unlikely unless you regularly talk over 83 hours a month on the phone) plus very cheap and competitive long distance rates to overseas. Works just like your old landline at a fraction of the cost and drop-dead simple to install when they provide you with the pre-configured hardware. They even support 911 if you need it.

[Z]

I would be comfortable stating that they're probably one of the highest profile companies that helped perpetuate the stigma of prepaid wireless as nothing more than burner phones in this country for the past decade, and there's good reason for it.

especially for their lack of standard GSM firmware making them pretty worthless for use outside of their respective sub-providers

To clarify, both Net10 and Straight talk allow you to bring your own gsm phone.

[Daley]

To clarify, both Net10 and Straight talk allow you to bring your own gsm phone.

That's a very recent occurrence, and it doesn't change the crap factor on the handsets being sold or the company itself.

[Z]

That's a very recent occurrence, and it doesn't change the crap factor on the handsets being sold or the company itself.

Kind of a moot point to have a discussion about the merits of phones sold by said companies if you can bring your own :) 

[Daley]

That's a very recent occurrence, and it doesn't change the crap factor on the handsets being sold or the company itself.

Kind of a moot point to have a discussion about the merits of phones sold by said companies if you can bring your own :)

That's not a feature across the board with all América Móvil properties, it's still problematic from a general electronic waste standpoint, and the discussion topic is why they shouldn't be recommended at all. Phones are but a small problem in a sea of overpriced ugly.

[Z]

it's still problematic from a general electronic waste standpoint

ok......

Phones are but a small problem in a sea of overpriced ugly.

In the specific scenario prior in the thread that prompted your commentary, straight talk was the cheaper option.

[Jamesqf]

That's a very recent occurrence, and it doesn't change the crap factor on the handsets being sold or the company itself.

I'm still curious as to why you think the phones are crap, and what distinguishes crappy from non-crappy.  I've had this one for a while (maybe a year?), toss it in the backpack or saddlebag (don't know why, as there's no reception in the places we usually ride), occasionally take a picture with the camera.  Hasn't broken yet.  And if I'm not mistaken, it was a "recycled" unit, meaning I kept a bit of stuff out of that electronic waste stream.

[Daley]

it's still problematic from a general electronic waste standpoint

ok......

Garbage phones with a short usage life cycle and a complete inability to be utilized outside of the selling provider with anyone else, or even used with the same provider without achieving the herculean task of getting someone in Columbia who doesn't speak English to mail you a replacement SIM card (technically this just applies to Tracfone now) or paying another $15 for a replacement SIM for service from a lousy company just to use the phone is not only un-mustachian but environmentally damaging and irresponsible. Bigger picture, dude. At least you can resell a Platinumtel phone for use with another P'tel user, a Sprint customer or even other non-Sprint owned Sprint MVNOs, and can even be used with other CDMA providers with an ESN reprogram.

In the specific scenario prior in the thread that prompted your commentary, straight talk was the cheaper option.

"I have determined with my money saving algorithm that it is five dollars cheaper, therefore it is five dollars superior! If I say it enough times, maybe Daley will just understand!"

I try to walk the line and err towards frugal with this guide, not cheap. $5 extra a month for English speaking support (and to avoid a company with dubious ethical business practices and billing habits) is a small price to pay.

I will never ever recommend América Móvil MVNOs because I know too much about them. You can keep recommending them all you want here, but I'm going to unapologetically keep pointing out their very real problems when you do and suggest competitively priced better alternatives.

If you're perfectly happy and willing to do business with these people despite the practices and prices, more power to you. I'll respect your choice to do so, but in exchange I expect you to respect my decision to warn people off because of very real problems. You want to argue for the cheapest MVNO plans possible no matter what with no consideration for quality and care? Take it to Howard Forums.

Edited to remove some unnecessary negativity.

[Daley]

I'm still curious as to why you think the phones are crap, and what distinguishes crappy from non-crappy.  I've had this one for a while (maybe a year?), toss it in the backpack or saddlebag (don't know why, as there's no reception in the places we usually ride), occasionally take a picture with the camera.  Hasn't broken yet.  And if I'm not mistaken, it was a "recycled" unit, meaning I kept a bit of stuff out of that electronic waste stream.

The day you've owned any classic Nokia candybar phone let alone a Nokia 6110 that's been thrown against a brick wall repeatedly and used to reliably make and receive calls a couple minutes later every time for about four years even with a cracked screen... you'll get it.

There's no truly outstanding feature phones on the market today (Nokia included), all the manufacturers are focusing on milking the smartphone market so all the design talent is there. Combine general cheap crap GSM phones they can afford to sell at a loss with poor UI design, cheap parts, too many crammed in features, and half-baked firmware with their bolt-on software that you can't unlock and use with any other GSM provider? The result is not a thing of quality. I'm glad you got a refurb, I'm glad the phone serves its purpose for you and has held up, but there's better for less from nicer companies that I would refer other people to first. I'm sorry that this somehow makes you feel defensive enough that you need to try justifying your usage of it.

[Z]

it's still problematic from a general electronic waste standpoint

ok......

Garbage phones with a short usage life cycle and a complete inability to be utilized outside of the selling provider with anyone else, or even used with the same provider without achieving the herculean task of getting someone in Columbia who doesn't speak English to mail you a replacement SIM card (technically this just applies to Tracfone now) or paying another $15 for a replacement SIM for service from a lousy company just to use the phone is not only un-mustachian but environmentally damaging and irresponsible. Bigger picture, dude. At least you can resell a Platinumtel phone for use with another P'tel user, a Sprint customer or even other non-Sprint owned Sprint MVNOs, and can even be used with other CDMA providers with an ESN reprogram.

In the specific scenario prior in the thread that prompted your commentary, straight talk was the cheaper option.

"I have determined with my money saving algorithm that it is five dollars cheaper, therefore it is five dollars superior! If I say it enough times, maybe Daley will just understand!"

I try to walk the line and err towards frugal with this guide, not cheap. $5 extra a month for English speaking support (and to avoid a company with dubious ethical business practices and billing habits) is a small price to pay.

I will never ever recommend América Móvil MVNOs because I know too much about them. You can keep recommending them all you want here, but I'm going to unapologetically keep pointing out their very real problems when you do and suggest competitively priced better alternatives.

If you're perfectly happy and willing to do business with these people despite the practices and prices, more power to you. I'll respect your choice to do so, but in exchange I expect you to respect my decision to warn people off because of very real problems. You want to argue for the cheapest MVNO plans possible no matter what with no consideration for quality and care? Take it to Howard Forums.


I'm going to clarify something here for those who haven't caught on yet. I care about the quality of advice I provide here and the service received for the money exchanged, and there are lines I will not cross with my recommendations for very principled reasons. This will serve as a reference guide to the outfits I will not recommend from this point forward short of a miraculous change in their business practices:

• AT&T
• Comcast
• Tracfone
• NET10
• StraightTalk
• Simple Mobile

I've already detailed reasons why on AT&T's front as well as the remaining except Comcast, and anyone who's ever had an account with Comcast doesn't need clarification as to why that's there. I'm sad to say that H2O Wireless might be joining those ranks here shortly, too. Shame that, they have some reasonably priced mid-range packages.

Not interested in starting a flame war.  I, and I'm sure many others, appreciate the detailed and useful guide you've created.  But dismissing whole segments of the market largely because of negative personal experiences....it just doesn't feel right, don't you think?  My intent is not to recommend options because of positive experiences.  Rather, there are a subset of users for whom straight talk could be the best option, and it often does the conversation a disservice to dogmatically throw entire companies offerings out the window for everyone.

On a different note, I saw the first mention of FreedomPop in quite some time on GigaOM.  Apparently they're hoping go live in 1-2 months.  And while there, happened to run into this :)

[Daley]

Not interested in starting a flame war.  I, and I'm sure many others, appreciate the detailed and useful guide you've created. But dismissing whole segments of the market largely because of negative personal experiences....it just doesn't feel right, don't you think?  My intent is not to recommend options because of positive experiences.  Rather, there are a subset of users for whom straight talk could be the best option, and it often does the conversation a disservice to dogmatically throw entire companies offerings out the window for everyone.

Edit: this was a detailed wall of text hand-holding through why America Movil didn't deserve much consideration as a provider. My apologies for the initial length, the current length, and some snarky responses originally peppered throughout. It's been trimmed.

Z, I'm not interested in starting a flame-war either, but I'd appreciate it if you gave me a bit more credit than to simply dismiss my concerns over the service as simply being petty, negative experiences and dogmatic. I'd like to think I've earned a bit more respect and credibility with the information provided than what you're insinuating.

Let's pretend that I haven't posted any strong warnings against them already and go over once more why I refuse to recommend them at all (not all issues are relevant to all brands):

• Their SIM cards are paired with the IMEI of their devices, new hardware requires a new SIM card.
• Their phone firmware cannot be unlocked for any other GSM carrier, not even a companion carrier of their own.
• They have had on-again-off-again double billing/overbilling issues for years that continue to occur on occasion.
• There is frequent occasion that users do not receive the minutes paid for on their account due to their usage management approach, and have to deal with support who will on occasion refuse to credit the account for those minutes.
• Their tech support is an English as a Second Language (ESL) group of people supporting a country who's primary customer base natively speaks English.
• Support hold times in excess of 30 minutes are frequent, call quality is usually bad with cross-talk in the lines and noise from high density cubicles, and support calls frequently drop.
• Useful support is rare if you have any troubles due to a language barrier combined with general indifference and incompetence.
• Their parent company has terms of service agreements in place to terminate users without notice who actually try to use the "unlimited" data they promise instead of just filtering restricted sites they refuse to allow.
• They press used phone numbers back into service within two weeks of account termination resulting in users assigned new numbers receiving wrong number calls, spam SMS messages they cannot opt out of, and worse.
• Most of their phones have dodgy hardware quality or custom firmware issues given they're cheap enough to still be profitable to sell with airtime if you throw out your phone every 30 days.

And that's just the major points. These are hardly isolated problems and if you would just spend some time researching my statements, you'd come to understand that. Frankly, these are all troubling behaviors from any provider, and they happen frequently enough to enough people to warrant concern.

With a little effort and research through all the major players in the MVNO markets, you'll see a pattern with AT&T MVNO prices. Go check out RedPocket, Jolt Mobile, H2O Wireless and Airvoice just for starters and of course include T-Mobile's prepaid and other providers from alternate networks for price comparison as well.

Once you've done some good and proper comparison shopping, you'll find the only packages that America Movil actually offers as being the cheapest or interesting enough to entertain at their price points for what is offered and listing on the merit of "good deals" for the services provided is:

• StraightTalk's $30 1000/1000/30 package, which only barely squeaks out on technicalities by a handful of minutes/texts or by a Lincoln with a skidmark of data thrown in on top of a hard talk/text restriction, and at the competing price point from T-Mo, choosing this option still loses you a larger calling area in exchange for a few minutes or texts.
• SimpleMobile's $40 "unlimited" talk/text/3G data package, which is only $10 less than T-Mobile's Monthly 4G plan and saddled with far more restrictive policies and soft usage caps and you lose the ability to roam, which is kinda important if you're using T-Mobile as a GSM provider and you're in a situation of usage where one actually needs a reliable "unlimited" package.

That's hardly dismissing huge swaths of end users and market shares or hiding huge piles of potential savings in this guide by refusing to endorse America Movil even if your assertion that it was for purely personal reasons was true (which I have repeatedly demonstrated is not). It also ignores the fact that there are competitively priced alternatives at similar price points from superior providers even on the same service bands like T-Mobile's $30 packages or Airvoice's monthly packages with limited data, which is what your "unlimited" data packages from America Movil truly is anyway.

We now have a reasonable ground to critique a value of savings versus quality of service and services provided for the money and the numbers don't mesh as being worth the potential risk of using any of this provider's brands. You're basically arguing for an extra 8% of savings for one guy's cell budget using service from a clearly dodgy MVNO provider. If you really want to get down to some imaginary brass tacks instead of letting some supposed "dogmatic" bias that doesn't "feel right" cloud my judgment because we should all just damn the consequences of the advice offered on request, let's do that. T-Mobile's $30 Monthly 4G package should have been recommended; let him eat the cost of unlocking or replacing a GoPhone. Screw the end user and the secondary costs, right? It's his problem to figure out how to make it work, all that matters is that I saved him an extra five bucks.

I've made a very deliberate effort of balancing quality of service against value, and most reasonable people would agree in light of the above, StraightTalk (or Simple Mobile for that matter) is not a particularly grand bargain. What minor section of the audience that might actually save a couple shekels on using those two very specific packages as opposed to the competitively priced alternatives from better providers will get saddled with terrible customer service and raw deals if something goes sideways. That's no bargain.

These problems in their service provisioning and their proprietary approach combined with mediocre and overworked foreign support and cheap hardware makes for a nightmare if anything goes wrong, and things do go wrong with this provider because of how they're set up. As such, my recommendations have been and will always be for competitively priced, well supported, sane providers with minimal hand-holding and relatively open hardware usage that avoid these sorts of problems. No fighting, no negotiating, no pleading, no speaking Spanish, just stuff that works at a good price with reasonable humans to take care of any problems. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Please respect that tone and approach to providing advice here. There's more to this guide than just cheap service. Service quality and support matters. There's a lot of MVNO providers out there that provide that... these guys aren't one of them.

If I cared more about bottom line than recommending quality frugal telecommunications services, I'd be espousing the supposed virtues of such crap VoIP providers as MagicJack and hailing Google Voice as the second coming of Alexander Graham Bell. If you'd actually read this thread, you'd know that's not how I roll. I may be passionate and hardline about dismissing certain providers, but trust it will always be for reasons far greater and egregious than some butthurt personal vendetta as you seem to believe.

[Jamesqf]

The day you've owned any classic Nokia candybar phone let alone a Nokia 6110 that's been thrown against a brick wall repeatedly and used to reliably make and receive calls a couple minutes later every time for about four years even with a cracked screen... you'll get it.

I'm not sure I understand.  You must have a much different mode of life than mine.  I don't often throw electronic devices against brick walls even once, let alone repeatedly.  'Bout the worst that I can readily envisage happening is to drop it out of the saddlebag when I'm out riding, and have a horse step on it.  If that happens... Well, it only cost about $30 to begin with, and better the phone than my foot :-)

There's no truly outstanding feature phones on the market today...

I'm sure my ignorance is showing, but what the heck is a "feature phone"?  I mean, it's a telephone, right?  You dial* the number of the person you want to talk to, they answer, you talk.

*OK, I admit to still having a rotary dial phone in the kitchen, but it came with the house.

Combine general cheap crap GSM phones they can afford to sell at a loss with poor UI design, cheap parts, too many crammed in features, and half-baked firmware with their bolt-on software that you can't unlock and use with any other GSM provider?

OK, I'll go along with the poor UI design, but I've honestly seen (and have struggled with) far worse.  FTM, from the limited glimpses I've had of other phones, most seem similar if not worse.

I'm sorry that this somehow makes you feel defensive enough that you need to try justifying your usage of it.

I'm not defensive, I'm curious.  Most of the points you've listed in other posts are either things I haven't experienced myself (but maybe I've just been lucky so far :-)), don't understand why I'd want to do them - e.g. "unlocking" phones, unlimited data - or which, to be honest, seem a little bit out of touch.  I mean who has native English speaking customer support these days?  Instead of Spanish (which believe it or not, some of us Anglos can speak a bit of) we could be trying to deal with Hindi or Bengali.

[Daley]

James, let me clarify a bit for you. First, feature phones are basically just a basic non-smart cell phones. Before Apple came along and changed the face of mobile communications, most all the phones sold were feature phones. I pointed out the Nokia and the experiences with the Nokia 6110 specifically to highlight the level of engineering and design that once went into feature phones. (The story behind that is actually quite amusing, but I'll leave it for another day.) They were robust, resilient, simple, easy to use, fast, and worked extremely well as a telephone (the old Nokias would have likely survived being stepped on by your horse repeatedly, for example). Most feature phones today are of the kitchen sink design philosophy that's come over from the smartphone camp. "Nobody wants to buy our phone if it doesn't have more features than a Swiss Army knife!" The end result is a design that fails quite frequently at its primary function. Oddly, because the good engineers have been brought over to smartphone design and feature phones have become ultra-cheap afterthoughts for poor people and third world countries, the entire market suffers. Most smartphones also suck at their primary function, but they're at least engineered well enough that they suck less at the job than most feature phones do now. Part of the problem can also be attributed to the market expectations of equipment prices, leaving manufacturers using ever crummier parts to build with to meet price expectations.

When I speak of lousy feature phones, I speak of UI, design, overall quality, comfort, reception quality, speaker and screen quality, software robustness and usability, and things of a similar nature. Again though, like in your case where you're kind of new to this whole mobile phone experience, you don't really have a frame of reference to truly good design usage in mobile phones to compare with. It might be usable, but you'll likely never call the experience great.

I would say you've probably been fortunate so far. As I've said multiple times now, America Movil is only okay as a carrier when it's just you and AT&T's network. When something goes sideways... then the problems begin. Their policies, their approach to management of devices, and their general philosophy of treating their customers as expendable as their equipment will likely catch up with you eventually. There's a reason why their number deactivation time limit is 14 days with zero chance of recovering your number if the account expires... it's not that there's a shortage of provisioned numbers, or purely the level of users on their network, it's the level of churn within their userbase that partially helps contribute to that problem.

I actually don't have as major a problem with outsourced support as you might think, but en est caso, los hindues es mas faciles de comprende. (My telenovella-grade Spanish is showing.) Even if you're not dealing with the fractured pidgin english, you're still frequently dealing with noisy lines, crosstalk, and loud call centers in the background with marathon hold sessions and dropped transfers. They also frequently tend to get snippy and rude no matter what language you use when you present with complex service or billing problems because they can't just dump you off the line. You'll also be surprised to find out that Platinumtel's support is in-country, as are most other independent MVNOs (especially on the Sprint Network). I'm not the biggest Page Plus fan, but I'd rather deal with ten of them than a single Tracfone rep again. You read enough mobile forums, most former America Movil customers who left due to service issues liken their experiences to an abusive relationship, myself included. It's hard to dismiss the angry reviews online as just abusive idiots when you've been through similar trying situations with them after losing a ported number to a "hardware glitch", being forced to buy a new phone because they still couldn't mail out a replacement SIM card after five tries, resultant billing issues, and then being provided with a new phone number that resulted in having to fill out a police report due to harassing calls from a psychopath who decided you stole her sister's phone, and having to get yet another phone number. The tale is harrowing, but charlie foxtrots happen. If I'd not learned of the policies that breed these situations so easily and not seen countless others go through similar terrible experiences due to those policies, I'd have just written it off and forgotten about it. But similar situations happen constantly to others. Switching to Platinumtel after our experiences there was like night and day, not even AT&T treated us that well when we'd been out of contract with them for five years and still voluntarily on their network. If you want a disposable cell phone, buy a Tracfone. If you want reliable MVNO cell service that you stick with for years with minimal fuss and reasonable pricing, you go with nearly anyone else.

As for all the talk of things like unlocking and device portability, it comes back to electronic waste. A Tracfone phone will only be usable with a Tracfone account, and nobody ever wants to buy them used because it's more difficult to deal with support and get a new SIM card with re-activation than spend the extra money on another beater phone from them. As for the portability issue? Let's say you want or need to switch providers, and you started out with a phone from AT&T's GoPhone division, or a phone from H2O or Airvoice or T-Mobile, or whatever... these are standards complaint GSM phones with only a branded base factory firmware. You unlock the phone, you can use a T-Mo phone with any AT&T based SIM card and vice versa. In the case of MVNOs on the same carrier network, you don't even have to unlock the phone. This means if you want to switch from H2O to Airvoice due to a bad experience or to save money, you order the SIM, you port your number and you swap SIMs out. You could even just buy an AT&T GoPhone and slap a RedPocket card in the device without even activating it with AT&T if you so desired. You get a good phone, and you can keep using it until it dies no matter what GSM carrier you use.

You also raise a good point with the "unlimited" thing. Personally, I find paying more than $25 a month for cell service unless you're constantly out on the road as being silly. That's why I've focused on the sub-$20 market so thoroughly with the guide and recommend bringing back a home phone via a VoIP provider.

Your curiosity finally sated? Make sense?

Again, I'm glad it's worked for you so far... but when people are coming out into the wilds of MVNO prepaid service, it's best to just skip to the cream of the crop than risk putting them through an experience that might leave them going back for a postpaid contract.

[Daley]

I've finally put my finger on why the posts in this thread have bothered me so much the past couple days, I've been put in a position having to demonstrate and prove a negative about a carrier well beyond reasonable means that the internet has more than enough existing information on to back the reasonable concerns. One of the goals of this guide has always been to focus on what's good out there and provide positive, solid information.

My apologies to the community at large for the increasingly negative tone this has taken the past couple days. I would request that we re-focus on the original purpose and cease with any further dwelling on the negative aspects of less desirable carriers that have a negligible impact on the MVNO landscape as viable options, especially when framed within the purpose of this guide. I've made a genuine effort to provide balanced, reasonable advice here... if I warn off a carrier, research for yourself why or ask in a PM. I want to be held accountable and kept honest, but not at the cost of having to be an internet jerkwad. Please respect that if you feel the information has been good so far, there might be a reason why.

Thank you.

[frugalman]

I've had Voipo for about 2 months now for my home VOIP landline.  It replaced my former service with Phone Power.  Price is abut $7/mo for Voipo, $11.50 for Phone Power.

I will say that Phone Power had consistently good voice quality. Voipo has some issues now and then, garbled sound mostly, occasionally they can hear me but I can't hear them etc.  Enough so that I'm thinking of going back to Phone Power, definitely at the end of my 2 year contract, and maybe before then (bite the bullet on the decision cost).

Just giving the board some feedback on Voipo versus Phone Power.

Also I have a question.  I love smartphones for their address book, which I think is stored on Google Contacts.  If I get a smart phone without a data plan, does anyone know if when I have a wifi connection, the address book is updated from Google Contacts and stored on my phone, so that when I am out and about, I can find my contacts?

[TheDude]

Also I have a question.  I love smartphones for their address book, which I think is stored on Google Contacts.  If I get a smart phone without a data plan, does anyone know if when I have a wifi connection, the address book is updated from Google Contacts and stored on my phone, so that when I am out and about, I can find my contacts?

Yes once you sign into your google account all of the contacts will import to your phone.

[frugalman]

Thanks TheDude!

Some of the cheaper carriers such as PlatinumTel charge per MB of data use.  Is there an easy way to set your android phone so that it will not use data (switch it off until I am running wifi at home)?

[TLV]

Yes - just go into the settings under "Mobile networks" and uncheck the box next to 3g (or whatever "G" your phone supports)

[LadyM]

I just wanted to report back on my NetTalk Duo device for home phone service:  ACES!!

Teamed up with my Verizon FIOS router and the fast connection, it works great.  So far so good, and we've had it for a few months now.

If people are looking for a new home phone service, this one works fine and is cheap.  Granted, you will NOT get the crystal clarity of an analogue phone or even a FIOS home phone line, but you can hear the other person fine enough to communicate effectively: there's been no dropping out of garbling for me.  I don't use my home phone much other than for a few local calls and to have in case of emergencies, so this extremely low-cost solution works for us.

I know it's not IP's first choice, or even in his top 10, as he groups it in with MagicJack and other similar devices, but I decided to try it out and see if it met our needs, and it does.  The cost of the NetTalk DUO device (tiny little box that plugs into your existing internet router and phone) is $50, and that includes the first year of service.  After the first year, you renew service at $30/year, which works out to be about $2.50/month.  http://www.nettalk.com/en/duo  It comes with lots of features, and you can port your number over for free!

Keep in mind, I've read reviews on this device and they've been about 50/50 - I think it really depends on your connection speed and the hardware you have at home.  IP sent me a list of modems that the NetTalk didn't play nicely with, but fortunately I didn't have one of those.  I also haven't had to deal with any support person, so I can't speak to customer service.  All I can say is that the service hasn't failed, it works as advertised, and I'm happy with what I get for what I'm paying.

[Daley]

I've had Voipo for about 2 months now for my home VOIP landline.  It replaced my former service with Phone Power.  Price is abut $7/mo for Voipo, $11.50 for Phone Power.

I will say that Phone Power had consistently good voice quality. Voipo has some issues now and then, garbled sound mostly, occasionally they can hear me but I can't hear them etc.  Enough so that I'm thinking of going back to Phone Power, definitely at the end of my 2 year contract, and maybe before then (bite the bullet on the decision cost).

Just giving the board some feedback on Voipo versus Phone Power.

Also I have a question.  I love smartphones for their address book, which I think is stored on Google Contacts.  If I get a smart phone without a data plan, does anyone know if when I have a wifi connection, the address book is updated from Google Contacts and stored on my phone, so that when I am out and about, I can find my contacts?

Forgive the slow replies... I'll catch up with the rest of the posts later on this week. Currently down in a very non-internetty part of the country.

Frugalman, have you contacted VOIPo support about the quality issues? There may be some configuration setting issues at play or it could be the backbone provider between your ISP and their servers (hopefully it's not that - but most troubled VOIPo customers seem to have problems at the ISP level). Their support should be able to isolate the point of failure or fix the issue. One of the reasons why I'm drawn to VOIPo to begin with was the support. Don't give up yet! :)

[TLV]

When we got our VOIPo adapter, it came with a couple sheets of instructions for if the quality was poor/intermittent - stuff like configuring ports on the router. Have you tried those yet?

[fiveoh]

I just realized/discovered today that facetime doesnt use any minutes(although you must be on wifi).  Helpful for me and/or anyone using an iphone on a prepaid plan.

[frugalman]

"When we got our VOIPo adapter, it came with a couple sheets of instructions for if the quality was poor/intermittent - stuff like configuring ports on the router. Have you tried those yet?" 

Not that I know of.  I have an ASUS router, fairly new.  I did their ezconfig and set VOIP and streaming (the choice is "together") to higher QOS.  I opened a ticket with VOIPo, and they responded with some gibberish about UDP port numbers blah blah but no easy instructions for a relatively untechnical such as myself.  So I'm living with it at the moment.

[Daley]

Frugalman, shoot me a PM copying over that gibberish with the model number of the Asus router... I'll see if I can translate for you.

[grantmeaname]

Is there a little cell phone post icon now? Whoa, man.

[Daley]

Is there a little cell phone post icon now? Whoa, man.

It's only an option for us uber-weenies accessing and posting to the forums through our cell phones using the WAP interface.

[Daley]

Frugalman- Given the info you laid out, I have a feeling it's your shiny new router interfering with call quality. Check your inbox.

LadyMaier- Interesting! Definitely keep us posted going forward. I'm still a little nervous about call quality and the price given what I know about telecom pricing, but I may have to research them a bit closer now... if you'll humor me, I might even have to get you on the horn so I can get a good thumb on call quality myself. lol

Officially back from my trip to my parents', have much to report in the coming weeks as time allows. There was a transition to Airvoice Wireless (awesome customer support - love is officially over for H2O), a transition from T-Mobile for wireless internet access to *shudder* AT&T (I feel dirty just reporting that news - more on why the switch later), the introduction of a wireless network with said AT&T internet utilizing a $25 Sierra USBConnect 308 and a $35 TP-Link TL-MR3020 (again, more on why later), and a system migration from OSX to Ubuntu. It should prove entertaining if nothing else.

[LadyM]

LadyMaier- Interesting! Definitely keep us posted going forward. I'm still a little nervous about call quality and the price given what I know about telecom pricing, but I may have to research them a bit closer now... if you'll humor me, I might even have to get you on the horn so I can get a good thumb on call quality myself. lol

You bet, I.P.!  Anytime!

[jbhernandez]

Frugalman- Given the info you laid out, I have a feeling it's your shiny new router interfering with call quality. Check your inbox.

LadyMaier- Interesting! Definitely keep us posted going forward. I'm still a little nervous about call quality and the price given what I know about telecom pricing, but I may have to research them a bit closer now... if you'll humor me, I might even have to get you on the horn so I can get a good thumb on call quality myself. lol

Officially back from my trip to my parents', have much to report in the coming weeks as time allows. There was a transition to Airvoice Wireless (awesome customer support - love is officially over for H2O), a transition from T-Mobile for wireless internet access to *shudder* AT&T (I feel dirty just reporting that news - more on why the switch later), the introduction of a wireless network with said AT&T internet utilizing a $25 Sierra USBConnect 308 and a $35 TP-Link TL-MR3020 (again, more on why later), and a system migration from OSX to Ubuntu. It should prove entertaining if nothing else.

Stop teasing us and tell us more.

[Jarvis]

My Verizon contract has ended and I'm switching to PlatinumTel this week.  I asked IP Daley to refer me via PM but no response yet - any other PlatinumTel customer out there that wants to message me their referral number? 

Thanks again - this is one of the most useful threads I've ever seen on the internet.

[Daley]

My Verizon contract has ended and I'm switching to PlatinumTel this week.  I asked IP Daley to refer me via PM but no response yet - any other PlatinumTel customer out there that wants to message me their referral number? 

Thanks again - this is one of the most useful threads I've ever seen on the internet.

Glad to be of help! Sorry for the less than expedient reply. Check your PM inbox.

Stop teasing us and tell us more.

Forgive the delay, I'll post the follow-up to the little epic after this reply.

You bet, I.P.!  Anytime!

I'll probably take you up on this shortly. Need to square a couple other things first, though. :)

[Daley]

Without further delay, presenting:
The Great Parental Overhaul

Okay! A couple weeks ago as it had been teased, I had traveled out to my parents place to help assist with a major communications and hardware refresh in the wild sticks of Oklahoma. There was a dying Mac Mini involved, a migration over to Airvoice Wireless for the cell phone service, and a migration over to AT&T for Internet. It went from two days to four filled with wailing and gnashing of teeth, but I had returned mostly victorious.

Cell Phone(s):
We'll start with the trivially easy part. There was a transition over to Airvoice Wireless with my mother's phone. The $10 a month plan was chosen, and the number porting went smoothly. Customer support was excellent, friendly and fluent. There was a hitch in migration as the voice mailbox wasn't set up initially, but it was resolved with a call that lasted less than five minutes, and most of that five minutes was spent waiting on hold, reading the ICCID number and validating the account. In keeping with the positive only thing I laid out earlier after the diversion a couple weeks ago, I just want to say that Airvoice has proven to be a far nicer experience than H2O has become the past few months and leave it at that. H2O will likely be taken off the recommended list if things continue.

My father's cell line was dropped in favor of the free emergency only option in the glovebox since the man refuses to take the fool thing anywhere. He's 79 and stubborn as a mule. Both my mother and myself would feel more comfortable with him driving if he carried the thing, but there's no point in continuing to spend money on something that has yet to be used and likely never will. With the sorts of summer heatwaves we've been getting, though, I am a bit concerned about longevity of the beater phone getting cooked in his truck.

Internet:
First, some color and background. Up until about two years ago, my parents were so remote that they were still on dial-up internet where they live... and not just any dial-up, dial-up that AT&T capped out the lines to only support up to 28.8kbps due to digital voice compression. Then, about three years ago, it was determined that dial-up just wasn't going to work anymore and after spending months of agonizing research time on satellite and wireless broadband options (one of the many research topics that helped lead to the creation of this guide), we finally settled on T-Mobile for their internet access as 28.8kbps is quite literally so slow as to not even be worth paying for, but they wanted and needed it. You're probably asking, "Daley... why in blue blazes would you choose T-Mo for wireless broadband, especially two years ago? That's nuts."

Yes, it is nuts... but my parents live on a figurative indian burial ground. What's really nuts is at the time, T-Mo and AT&T in that area on the wireless end were both only providing low-end EDGE data speeds. I would have loved to have gotten them onto Virgin's data plan, but there's quite literally a Sprint dead zone about 80 feet wide surrounding their house, and Verizon was the same way. So, for about $45 a month, my parents paid T-Mobile for glorious high-latency 64kbps EDGE internet access. Then Verizon LTE came on line in the area a little over a year ago, and I found reports of people farther away from the tower than my parents getting excellent data speeds. Hotcha? Not so much. My parents place was a dead zone once again and they kept trucking with T-Mo.

Now, I should briefly mention the satellite options. Both are expensive, cost an even more hideous amount for what's provided than wireless, install is costly, and there's a two year contract on top of it. My father refused to go under contract, which is just as well... Wild Blue didn't have sufficient southern exposure for reception and HughesNet refused to even take on additional subscribers in the area. And if you're curious, no... my parents won't move.

Well, a few months ago, AT&T finally reported that they'd overhauled the towers in the area and were claiming HSPA+ "4G" speeds now. They had originally been with AT&T with their wireless a few years back, so I knew reception was good. GSM was the only thing reaching out there, after all... and no matter how much there was a repulsion towards the Death Star, it's about bang for buck and T-Mo was still only basically providing high-latency (proper) dial-up speeds for a fistful of dollars. Just to make sure, I sent a friend who's still on AT&T (true road warrior - trucker) out to their land and he was pulling about 1Mbps. Not great, but immensely better than T-Mo.

Anyway, it took convincing my parents several months to try and pull the handle on the transition. As a means to help try and improve speeds further, I decided that going with a wireless base station like a MiFi device would be beneficial as then the modem could be parked where-ever the best reception could be obtained in the house (and the connection could be easier shared with multiple devices). Cost was an issue, though, as were contracts. We settled on a $25 Sierra USBConnect 308 (used) and a $35 TP-Link TL-MR3020 (new, discounted) brought together instead. I have to say, the TP-Link router is a humdinger of a device for the price. It may only have one ethernet port, but it's small, easy to set up, the firmware's quite robust and feature rich, and the power draw is quite low even with the USB modem plugged in. Unfortunately, the process took so long to get my parents on board with, they missed out on a $40/month data only package that was being offered by AT&T a few months back and got shafted with the $50/5GB plan. Good news is, internet is usable out at their house now! Bad news is, it caps out at about 600kbps and still kinda high latency... similar dead spot as with the CDMA carriers. The ancestral ghosts of Chief Running Gag clearly don't want my parents to get good reception.

Great news is, though, now you know if you're needing a similar setup and already use a pretty standard USB modem, you can convert it into a relatively secure wireless hotspot for around $35-40. Also, my parents internet/cell/phone budget isn't necessarily any cheaper, but they're getting far better for the money with an average outlay of around $75-80 a month. It's the small victories, even if you do have to sell your telecommunicating soul to Ma Bell. Footnote: VoIP isn't an option for them, and their Google Voice number isn't even on the same exchange - one town over, and long distance. At least they can successfully initiate calls online now. Aren't monopolies awesome!?

Computer:
Finally, we close with the computer. As I am dealing with an indian burial ground, you'd be correct to suspect that there was a plague of problems. A refurbished Dell Optiplex was obtained for around $170 to retire the failing Mac Mini with, and it shipped with a bad DIMM. If I hadn't dealt with refurbs for years (or my parents), I'd probably swear off refurbs, but I know better. This is just how the universe works when I do anything for the parental units. Got it stable, load up Ubuntu 12.04, seems... okay, but twitchy. Come to find out, the Nvidia drivers these past few months under Linux went to crap for the old 5xxx, 6xxx GPUs, and guess what was powering the onboard video. I'd sworn by Nvidia under Linux for years... so of course it didn't work. Finally broke down and spent $30 on an ATI Radeon 5450 which works beautifully using the open source ATI drivers. First time I'd ever had a Radeon work near flawlessly under Linux, let alone a newer one.

Here's the good news for you Mac heads... with some minor tweaks to the Unity interface and if you primarily use mostly cross-platform open source apps already, your transition between platforms is actually pretty smooth. There was a few days of minor culture shock and learning where a few things got moved around to, but the transition went relatively smoothly (barring the technical issues with AT&T's wireless internet access and constantly tossing 503 bad gateway errors on the Canonical repositories for updating the system - but that's for another day).

Anyway, there you go. Mostly an entertaining post with a few useful tidbits tossed in. Really more blog fodder, but I'm working on that. >.>

[Z]

Unfortunately, AT&T GSM MVNOs are just more expensive than CDMA based ones, especially for data.

T-Mobile MVNO might be an exception if Ultramobile goes live next month as expected:

http://ultra.me/

A sparse website right now, but at .049/mb it would be the most cost effective prepaid data (gsm or cdma) available.

[Daley]

Unfortunately, AT&T GSM MVNOs are just more expensive than CDMA based ones, especially for data.

T-Mobile MVNO might be an exception if Ultramobile goes live next month as expected:

http://ultra.me/

A sparse website right now, but at .049/mb it would be the most cost effective prepaid data (gsm or cdma) available.

I'd heard mention of them briefly, and it won't be a terrible rate for pre-paid data or voice services. I'd really like to see the fine print on their ToS and actually have them go live before I want to treat them as anything more than a curiosity, though. Of course, being a T-Mo MVNO, you're still going to be dealing with the effed up data bands and needing T-Mo phones for anything but EDGE service until they rejigger their data services next year to be better compatible with AT&T's GSM spectrum. I also doubt this will make a dent in the problem I cited in the quote... AT&T is just plain STUPID EXPENSIVE with wireless data on their network.

Anyway, thanks for posting the heads up... it should be interesting to see roll out.

[Z]

Of course, being a T-Mo MVNO, you're still going to be dealing with the effed up data bands and needing T-Mo phones for anything but EDGE service until they rejigger their data services next year to be better compatible with AT&T's GSM spectrum.

Pentaband as well - the galaxy nexus for instance.

AT&T is just plain STUPID EXPENSIVE with wireless data on their network.

Agreed.  However, there are potential signs of improvement in recent news.  For instance, despite the excessive cost of a new high end kindle fire, it's notable that the data plan provides 250mb a month for $50 a year on AT&T.

[Daley]

Of course, being a T-Mo MVNO, you're still going to be dealing with the effed up data bands and needing T-Mo phones for anything but EDGE service until they rejigger their data services next year to be better compatible with AT&T's GSM spectrum.

Pentaband as well - the galaxy nexus for instance.

A $350 pentaband GSM phone that's for sale outside of the T-Mobile marketplace does not make for a plethora of devices that eases or accommodates most GSM MVNO converts. The system is fragmented and broken, and frankly, spending $350 on a phone that won't even work with T-Mo's upcoming LTE rollout after the pending transition is a bit foolish if you're spending that much money and focusing that hard on data services to begin with. This is about affordable and plentiful communications technologies to save money and not indulge our technolust, remember?

AT&T is just plain STUPID EXPENSIVE with wireless data on their network.

Agreed.  However, there are potential signs of improvement in recent news.  For instance, despite the excessive cost of a new high end kindle fire, it's notable that the data plan provides 250mb a month for $50 a year on AT&T.

...and Barnes & Noble and Amazon both used to allow free unlimited 3G internet access on AT&T through their e-readers with past Nook and Kindle models. This is nothing new, and it's called subsidizing. They make a crapload of money off most people through datamining, advertisements and content sales with these devices by providing free or cheap ever-present data service. If anything, the fact that they're now charging and capping goes against the very thing you claim about their prices going down because customers are now having to pay for something that used to be free with these devices and their accompanying privacy colonoscopy.

[Z]

Of course, being a T-Mo MVNO, you're still going to be dealing with the effed up data bands and needing T-Mo phones for anything but EDGE service until they rejigger their data services next year to be better compatible with AT&T's GSM spectrum.

Pentaband as well - the galaxy nexus for instance.

A $350 pentaband GSM phone that's for sale outside of the T-Mobile marketplace does not make for a plethora of devices that eases or accommodates most GSM MVNO converts. The system is fragmented and broken, and frankly, spending $350 on a phone that won't even work with T-Mo's upcoming LTE rollout after the pending transition is a bit foolish if you're spending that much money and focusing that hard on data services to begin with. This is about affordable and plentiful communications technologies to save money and not indulge our technolust, remember?

AT&T is just plain STUPID EXPENSIVE with wireless data on their network.

Agreed.  However, there are potential signs of improvement in recent news.  For instance, despite the excessive cost of a new high end kindle fire, it's notable that the data plan provides 250mb a month for $50 a year on AT&T.

...and Barnes & Noble and Amazon both used to allow free unlimited 3G internet access on AT&T through their e-readers with past Nook and Kindle models. This is nothing new, and it's called subsidizing. They make a crapload of money off most people through datamining, advertisements and content sales with these devices by providing free or cheap ever-present data service. If anything, the fact that they're now charging and capping goes against the very thing you claim about their prices going down because customers are now having to pay for something that used to be free with these devices and their accompanying privacy colonoscopy.

The $350 investment for a gnexus is only if purchased new via google.  It's available for much less on craigslist.  And more importantly, it can often be viewed as a method to replace traditional computing platforms.  If it can serve in lieu of a laptop, a $250 price tag might make more sense. In this context, particularly considering resale value, it could be considered a worthwhile investment for some users.  Not all.  But it's worth mentioning.

Regarding your second comment.  Amazon e-readers continue to have free 3g.  The kindle fire hd is a 4g table.  Being incendiary about AT&T charging for data access on said table does not warrant a response on my part.

I've finally put my finger on why the posts in this thread have bothered me so much the past couple days, I've been put in a position having to demonstrate and prove a negative about a carrier well beyond reasonable means that the internet has more than enough existing information on to back the reasonable concerns. One of the goals of this guide has always been to focus on what's good out there and provide positive, solid information.

My apologies to the community at large for the increasingly negative tone this has taken the past couple days. I would request that we re-focus on the original purpose and cease with any further dwelling on the negative aspects of less desirable carriers that have a negligible impact on the MVNO landscape as viable options, especially when framed within the purpose of this guide. I've made a genuine effort to provide balanced, reasonable advice here... if I warn off a carrier, research for yourself why or ask in a PM. I want to be held accountable and kept honest, but not at the cost of having to be an internet jerkwad. Please respect that if you feel the information has been good so far, there might be a reason why.

Thank you.

I had hopes we were going to try and be positive going forward.  My initial impression of this forum was that of a venue to share thoughts and useful tips on a variety of communication platforms in the context of MMM.  Yes, personal preferences matter in any conversation.  But it seems this is rapidly becoming (or has always been) one persons view of the world.

[Daley]

So, pointing out technical limitations, pricing structures, and the realities of signing away your privacy with devices from companies that openly admit to making money off of datamining your activities on devices deliberately built to extract money from you in exchange for cheap to free wireless access is being negative now? Okay then, guilty as charged.

And here, I didn't think the true negativity started back in until you got hostile and made things personal again at about... this point:

Being incendiary about AT&T charging for data access on said table does not warrant a response on my part.
.....
I had hopes we were going to try and be positive going forward.  My initial impression of this forum was that of a venue to share thoughts and useful tips on a variety of communication platforms in the context of MMM.  Yes, personal preferences matter in any conversation.  But it seems this is rapidly becoming (or has always been) one persons view of the world.

Being positive is one thing, but we must also be realistic. I will not refrain from colorful language, candy coat or turn a blind eye toward reality just so everyone feels like a warm puppy getting a tummy rub reading this thread. I've volunteered and dedicated a lot of time to this guide, and if needed, I try to challenge the quality of the suggested information based on the information itself with knowledge the other might not have considered. It works well most times, and it improves the overall quality with those who don't turn it into a personal e-peen contest. Forgive me for suspecting this, but you appear to now take offense at my not just rolling over and thanking you for each idea you post and challenge me like I deserve to be taken down a couple pegs any time I dare question your suggestions. That approach does not make for an informative or high quality discussion, and I dislike that sort of guff. I recognize you've contributed some interesting and useful information, but this is the second time in under a month you've gone on the attack and I'm not going to roll over about it just to be pleasant again. You have a personal problem with me? Take it to a PM and keep it out of the forums.

That said, thank you for the backhanded compliment towards my attempts at steering and keeping ownership of a consolidated repository of information I authored and curate. If my name's going to be attached to something, you'd better believe I'm going to make sure the quality of the information presented adheres to my standards.

[Z]

keeping ownership of a consolidated repository of information I authored and curate.

Exactly. 

[arebelspy]

Let it go, Z.

If you don't agree with IP, feel free to start your own thread with your own opinions.  Or by all means, post in here, but don't get upset if IP doesn't agree.. This clearly is a thread of his information and opinions.

I'd be happy to read a thread with your thoughts, but for now this doesn't seem to be productive for either of you.

Just my thoughts, feel free to ignore me.  Hoping one of you will be the bigger man though. ;)