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General Discussion => Share Your Badassity => Topic started by: Nash3222 on November 01, 2020, 04:02:40 PM

Title: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Nash3222 on November 01, 2020, 04:02:40 PM
Can you live on 30k a year or less? I'm talking total expenditures for the year.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: uniwelder on November 01, 2020, 04:06:54 PM
My wife and I are in a LCOL area and this is our typical annual budget. We don’t have a mortgage on the house, so that helps attain the low number.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: NotJen on November 01, 2020, 04:14:38 PM
I’m on track to spend <$20k this year (family of 1).

I’ve spent less than $30k per year (if I exclude taxes) since 2017.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: YttriumNitrate on November 01, 2020, 04:37:39 PM
Sure. In grad school I was living on about 10k a year.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: TheFrenchCat on November 01, 2020, 04:47:16 PM
Can we live on that?  Yes.  Our base expenses are between 20-24k per year.  On top of that we spend/save about 12k for our daughter's education and savings for college (5400 for school, 6000 for college fund).  So our expenses in FIRE will be a lot less than they are now during our working years.  But since we're making this choice, I don't know if we count.  That number also includes rent and we plan to buy and pay off a house before retiring as well, so I think it will be even lower. 

However, this doesn't make me feel particularly badass.  It doesn't take a lot of work, since my parents used to live on even less, so I was raised very frugally.  We could probably get this number lower, but it's not worth the work or changes to lifestyle for us. 
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: bbqbonelesswing on November 01, 2020, 05:10:14 PM
I don't think I've ever spent $30k in a year. My bare bones budget is about $1,600/month. Currently I'm spending more than that but will still come in a few grand under $30k. We are in Philly (HCOL).
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: MudPuppy on November 01, 2020, 05:14:39 PM
Without mortgage, yes. If we opted for fewer/non special needs pets, we could do it even with the mortgage.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: LoanShark on November 01, 2020, 05:15:51 PM
Yes. There were times when my take home comp was less than that...lived quite well.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: deborah on November 01, 2020, 05:19:00 PM
Always have. Being FIRE, I use last year’s underspend for extra things like travel if I want to.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: martyconlonontherun on November 01, 2020, 05:21:42 PM
Family of 3. Probably 'could' live a happy life at that but we are probably at 70k when you factor in day care, 15 year mortgage, aggressively paying off student and car loans. Hoping that our expenses in Fire will be closer to 45kish, which would include a good amount of travel. (Milwaukee area)
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Metalcat on November 01, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Probably, yeah, it would be doable, but it wouldn't be as fun. We're more 45K people, and we live extremely lush at that spend.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: OtherJen on November 01, 2020, 05:51:15 PM
After tax, that covers all our regular expenses generously.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: nobody on November 01, 2020, 05:54:09 PM
Always have. (Party of one.)
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Zikoris on November 01, 2020, 06:20:08 PM
Not only could we do it without any difficulty, we'd have an extra few thousand left over to make a money bonfire at the end of the year. We've never once spent that much in our many years of tracking.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Freedomin5 on November 01, 2020, 07:27:16 PM
Family of three. We spend about $12K per year ($18K if you include paying for life insurance), but then we have no rent/mortgage, DD has free tuition, and our companies pay for our health insurance.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: ctuser1 on November 01, 2020, 08:59:19 PM
No, we can't!

We are a family of 4 in a HCOL area. The carrying cost of our house (including amortized amounts set aside for all maintenance including lumpy ones like roof/furnace) is between $30-$40k. Once the mortgage is paid off, and we save the $6k/year in interest payment, the carrying cost should drop below $30k if you ignore the opportunity cost of the occupied capital.

Based on my number crunching, I have calculated that our base run rate is about $50k/year once our current house is paid off. Hence, this is my bare minimum Lean-FI number.

Note: I have gotten a lot of flak from people for putting this number out there. The criticism is justified from a certain point of view. I had done a similar "base run rate" calculation when we were renters and it came out much lower simply because renting the small apartment was a lot cheaper than "owning" a (small) SFH dwelling.  At that time, our "base run rate" was around $30k. We don't want to go back to the "apartment" lifestyle, however, and hence don't consider that to be a relevant option any more.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Sid Hoffman on November 01, 2020, 10:52:14 PM
Based on my number crunching, I have calculated that our base run rate is about $50k/year once our current house is paid off. Hence, this is my bare minimum Lean-FI number.

Note: I have gotten a lot of flak from people for putting this number out there.

I think it's good to be honest about it, especially for all the people who are more enthusiastic about FIRE than their life partner. If $50k/year lets you do everything you life and see that your entire family is taken care of, then that's still a good number for a family if you asked me.

For me, I've been running around $36k/year as a roughly 1.5 person household (my adult son has lived with me off and on for the past several years and has relatively modest expenses that I've covered from time to time) and my math says that I should have my house paid off next year, at which point my base comes down to around $21k/year. So in that situation of having a paid off house and car, $30k would mean a pretty substantial buffer of $9k/year to allocate to future expenses like repairs, renovations, replacement car, vacations, and anything else that's outside my normal activities. For a 2+ person household I still think $30k/year is totally doable, but it will almost certainly have a lower annual buffer.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: evme on November 01, 2020, 11:12:23 PM
Yes, very doable. It helps a lot not having a mortgage though.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: deborah on November 01, 2020, 11:23:33 PM
The point isn’t whether we can do it, or even whether it can be done. There are plenty of people who’ve done it or are doing it. And less. A lot less. Look at early retirement extreme.

The point is whether YOU can do it.

And whether you are happy doing it.

And whether you are happy doing it for a lifetime.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: APowers on November 02, 2020, 05:45:36 AM
Easily. But why are you asking?
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Car Jack on November 02, 2020, 06:09:11 AM
No.

prop tax $9k
insurance for car, home, umbrella $4k
health insurance, copays, deductibles, $10k

Without going any further, that would leave us $7k for the year.  Nope. 
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: MasterStache on November 02, 2020, 07:08:11 AM
Sure! I lived on about 12K per year in college. As a family of 4 we have no intentions of trying to scrape by on that amount. My daughter competes nationally in gymnastics and my son has some special needs. Not even going to try to live on 30K per year.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: blue_green_sparks on November 02, 2020, 07:48:39 AM
Yes, $25K for 2019 and 2020 in a MCOL area. Insurance policies and real estate taxes are our biggest expenses. We feel we live well and want for nothing, especially with this relatively sizable piece of property to roam. We will be selling a few valuables next year. I was expecting we would grow more attached to material things but for some reasons unknown to us, the opposite is true. 
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: RainyDay on November 02, 2020, 09:37:26 AM
No.

prop tax $9k
insurance for car, home, umbrella $4k
health insurance, copays, deductibles, $10k

Without going any further, that would leave us $7k for the year.  Nope.

Exactly.  Our property taxes aren't as high as that, but we do live in a HCOL area (right outside DC).  Even though we live in a modestly-priced home (for the area), it's still expensive. 

So nope, no sub-$30k/year for us! 
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Nash3222 on November 02, 2020, 10:24:06 AM
Easily. But why are you asking?

Eyeing retirement, with what I have saved up, 30K a year would work. :)
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Metalcat on November 02, 2020, 10:29:23 AM
Easily. But why are you asking?

Eyeing retirement, with what I have saved up, 30K a year would work. :)

Yeah, but what other people spend is virtually meaningless.
The range of housing costs alone makes annual spend amounts impossible to generalize.

There are people out there who can barely get by on 100K/yr and people who are living well and traveling internationally on under 20K/yr.

Even if every person on here said "oh yeah, we can easily love on 30K/yr" that still wouldn't mean anything for your particular circumstances.

Do a case study if you want actual reassurance about your ability to retire.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: ixtap on November 02, 2020, 10:33:04 AM
Easily. But why are you asking?

Eyeing retirement, with what I have saved up, 30K a year would work. :)

Then all that matters is can *you* live on $30k?

It depends on your lifestyle and your existing possessions (many have said having a paid off Josie keeps their costs down, for example).

We know that we *can* line on $30k, but we are currently making lifestyle choices that have us spending twice that and we want to have similar options in the future. Specifically, we currently have a second home because DH had some health issues that required us to eliminate his commute or choose to retire on a scant $30k. Since his health issues also meant we wouldn't be able to do the things we want to do, he chose to spend more to earn more.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Metalcat on November 02, 2020, 10:34:28 AM
Easily. But why are you asking?

Eyeing retirement, with what I have saved up, 30K a year would work. :)

Then all that matters is can *you* live on $30k?

It depends on your lifestyle and your existing possessions (many have said having a paid off Josie keeps their costs down, for example).

We know that we *can* line on $30k, but we are currently making lifestyle choices that have us spending twice that and we want to have similar options in the future. Specifically, we currently have a second home because DH had some health issues that required us to eliminate his commute or choose to retire on a scant $30k. Since his health issues also meant we wouldn't be able to do the things we want to do, he chose to spend more to earn more.

man, autocorrect kicked your ass a bit on that one, eh?
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: ixtap on November 02, 2020, 10:36:10 AM
Easily. But why are you asking?

Eyeing retirement, with what I have saved up, 30K a year would work. :)

Then all that matters is can *you* live on $30k?

It depends on your lifestyle and your existing possessions (many have said having a paid off Josie keeps their costs down, for example).

We know that we *can* line on $30k, but we are currently making lifestyle choices that have us spending twice that and we want to have similar options in the future. Specifically, we currently have a second home because DH had some health issues that required us to eliminate his commute or choose to retire on a scant $30k. Since his health issues also meant we wouldn't be able to do the things we want to do, he chose to spend more to earn more.

man, autocorrect kicked your ass a bit on that one, eh?

Line up the Josie!

I am leaving it...
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: nirodha on November 02, 2020, 10:37:00 AM
For the OP - when asking questions like this, be sure it is an apples to apples comparison:

- how many people in the household
- is the home paid off (ie there is really capital tied up providing imputed rent or some other "cheap" housing hack that is really a labor trade?)
- who is paying for health insurance (is it "free" because a spouse works, what about clever use of ACA subsidies and cost sharing?)
- are all taxes being accounted for (people often ignore income / capital gains / dividend taxes - but what if you have to manufacture income to get ACA subsidies?)
- any other free perks the person is getting, that are really a trade on labor? maybe work pays for internet and phone, maybe watching the grandkid every day includes meals
- what is the cost of living of the area

Accounting for all of the above, my household of 2 is above $30k. Could we force it? No. We have a $300k townhouse that acts as an anchor. I'd estimate cost of capital tied up into that around $1200 per month, which already puts us at $14400 for the year. Add on property taxes, association dues and home owners insurance - we're already at $24k. That's before accounting for health insurance, transportation, food or income taxes on money spent to afford those expenses. I bet we'd end up closer to $50k per year in comprehensive expenses.

Yet, I could say the home is paid off and work covers my insurance. Throw out the internet and phone costs, since work pays. Cut off the "optional" stuff I bought for mental sanity in pandemic times. Ignore income taxes, because they only apply from working. Then divide what is left by 2, since there's two of us. Then I might claim expenses under $10k/yr.

Often, there is a bias towards the latter, especially in the FIRE community. A low score can be a point of pride. IMO that confuses the picture for newer people, makes things look more extreme than they really are.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: nalor511 on November 02, 2020, 11:54:14 AM
About $35k for two, yes, but it's (of course) going to depend on your area, family size, and extravagance
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on November 02, 2020, 11:57:44 AM
I can't live on 30k a year due to healthcare needs in my family. 50k is more reasonable for us.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Sandi_k on November 02, 2020, 11:59:40 AM
Can you live on 30k a year or less? I'm talking total expenditures for the year.

I can't. We're in CA, with a 15 year mortgage. PITI alone is $40k per year.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: MudPuppy on November 02, 2020, 12:00:12 PM
@WhiteTrashCash healthcare costs are huge. Unless universal/single payer is passed I will likely need to coastFI just to keep decent coverage
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on November 02, 2020, 12:09:58 PM
@WhiteTrashCash healthcare costs are huge. Unless universal/single payer is passed I will likely need to coastFI just to keep decent coverage

I think I could make it work if they at least added a public option. Otherwise, I would need a lot of income to cover premiums and deductibles for a HDHP on the ACA Marketplace plus co-pays.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: MudPuppy on November 02, 2020, 12:16:09 PM
That’s another path!
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Jack0Life on November 02, 2020, 10:46:51 PM
We have a smaller rental house that's paid off. If we move back, we can easily do it.
Monthly: Family of 2.
$200- property tax
$100- home insurance
$150- utility
$250- health insurance(ACA)
$50- cellular
$70- internet
$80- car insurance(1 car)
$80- gas and tolls
$1500- Food and misc spending($50 per day)
========
$2480= $29,760 yearly.
Wow, still a lot more than I thought. I can probably trim it down to $25,000. Use the extra $5000 for vacations.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: MasterStache on November 03, 2020, 07:08:25 AM
Easily. But why are you asking?

Eyeing retirement, with what I have saved up, 30K a year would work. :)

Yeah, but what other people spend is virtually meaningless.
The range of housing costs alone makes annual spend amounts impossible to generalize.

There are people out there who can barely get by on 100K/yr and people who are living well and traveling internationally on under 20K/yr.

Even if every person on here said "oh yeah, we can easily love on 30K/yr" that still wouldn't mean anything for your particular circumstances.

Do a case study if you want actual reassurance about your ability to retire.
+1
Perhaps the OP is just wondering how many folks live on under 30K/year. I get that. But in the grand scheme of things there are so many variables it's inevitably pointless to weigh decisions for yourself based on others inputs. 
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: UnleashHell on November 03, 2020, 09:36:51 AM
no. I can't. But I have 1 1/2 mortgages and alimony to pay. That's nearly 30k a year right there.

but so what - unless you have alimony and 1 1/2 mortgages then me living on 30K a year (or non) is totally irrelevant to you.

The question is can you live on 30k a year. maybe
or How can I live on 30k a year?

provide context and you might get a relevant answer.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Mrs. D. on November 03, 2020, 11:37:57 AM
No. We are a family of 4 in a MCOLA. We spend in the 45-50 range. When DH and I are empty nesters, and if we can get rid of the mortgage, then probably yes. Although that probably wouldn't leave room for a vacation or any occasional splurges.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: alcon835 on November 04, 2020, 12:22:31 PM
Not until my house is paid off. Even then, my lifestyle puts me at ~$40k/year FIRE with a $60k/year fat FIRE. I could cut things to get under $30k fairly easily, but I don't think I'll need too, so I plan to live off of 40K+
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: dandarc on November 04, 2020, 12:25:02 PM
Theoretically the numbers should work for our household of 2, but we're not trying hard at all so can't say we're actually doing it.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: oldladystache on November 04, 2020, 04:15:09 PM
I certainly could if I had to. Fortunately I don't have to
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: MudPuppy on November 04, 2020, 04:25:51 PM
@oldladystache i don’t know why that answer made me laugh but it did
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: PoutineLover on November 04, 2020, 04:28:15 PM
I personally can, and do. My household spends a bit more than that, two adults. We do have some luxuries that we could cut out if we really had to, but my current personal spending of about 22-24k works pretty well for me.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on November 05, 2020, 01:29:16 AM
Easy peasy.

As an individual my expenses have never been more than $26k/yr in my adult life (34 now). And over the past 14 months our combined expenses with DW were <$30k/yr while traveling in Europe.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: foghorn on November 08, 2020, 06:28:14 AM
Yes.

Monthly bare bones budget is about $1300 ($15,600 per year).  Throw in all the extra stuff that comes up during a year and I am still well under $30K per year. 

Single. No kids.  No mortgage.  No debt.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Linea_Norway on November 08, 2020, 07:26:33 AM
Yes.
In one of the most expensive countries in the world. With 2 adults.

To clarify, this was in a house that we fully owned. Now, living in a rental, I think we are spending more.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Dicey on November 08, 2020, 02:47:00 PM
I don't think I've ever spent $30k in a year. My bare bones budget is about $1,600/month. Currently I'm spending more than that but will still come in a few grand under $30k. We are in Philly (HCOL).
Huh. I did not know Philly is a "HCOL". Really?
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Tass on November 08, 2020, 03:22:55 PM
In 2019 and 2020, I've spent about $15k/year while paying rent. That covers only my half of expenses, which are split with my partner. It does not include ~$3.5k/year in charitable donations.

Next year my spending will go up to about $17.5k/year (again excluding charity) because I no longer have roommates besides my partner. The two of us together would have a hard time staying under $30k, but only because we are paying rent in a HCOLA. We plan to move somewhere cheaper after I finish my degree.

My non-rent, non-charity spending is $7-8k per year.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: monarda on November 08, 2020, 10:25:20 PM
One person? Yes, for sure. Two of us are living between 30K and 35K in a middle COL city.  If we'd spend 45K it'd feel extravagant.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: bbqbonelesswing on November 09, 2020, 09:30:44 AM
I don't think I've ever spent $30k in a year. My bare bones budget is about $1,600/month. Currently I'm spending more than that but will still come in a few grand under $30k. We are in Philly (HCOL).
Huh. I did not know Philly is a "HCOL". Really?

It depends what neighborhood you live in. For us, yes, it's HCOL compared to living in the burbs, but definitely lower than some other big cities like NYC or SF.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: DeniseNJ on November 12, 2020, 07:24:55 AM
Nope. Living in northern NJ. Paying for two kids in state college right now. Monthly mortgage, taxes, and maintenance on small townhouse is $2600, so that alone is 31K.

However, yes it can be done and I personally could totally do it since if it was just me I'd live in a studio apt and be perfectly happy. It's the rest of my gang that can't do it! Can't wait to send them all packing and move to Costa Rica.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: yachi on November 12, 2020, 01:41:00 PM
I think so, but we would have to pay off the house, sell the second car, and rely on Medicaid.  Family of 6 with 4 in elementary school.  I'm not convinced that this level of spending without a job beats how we're living with a job.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: HenryDavid on November 23, 2020, 08:47:26 PM
Can you live on 30k a year or less? I'm talking total expenditures for the year.

In Canada the median individual after tax income for 2018 was 25289.00 USD.
So over half the individuals in Canada took home much less than 30k US.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Goldielocks on November 29, 2020, 08:34:49 PM
No, we can't!

We are a family of 4 in a HCOL area. The carrying cost of our house (including amortized amounts set aside for all maintenance including lumpy ones like roof/furnace) is between $30-$40k. Once the mortgage is paid off, and we save the $6k/year in interest payment, the carrying cost should drop below $30k if you ignore the opportunity cost of the occupied capital.

Based on my number crunching, I have calculated that our base run rate is about $50k/year once our current house is paid off. Hence, this is my bare minimum Lean-FI number.

Note: I have gotten a lot of flak from people for putting this number out there. The criticism is justified from a certain point of view. I had done a similar "base run rate" calculation when we were renters and it came out much lower simply because renting the small apartment was a lot cheaper than "owning" a (small) SFH dwelling.  At that time, our "base run rate" was around $30k. We don't want to go back to the "apartment" lifestyle, however, and hence don't consider that to be a relevant option any more.
Ah! but your number is pretty impressive if you think of it as "per adult".
Your bare bones is $25k per adult.   In HCOL, with children. 
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: ilsy on November 29, 2020, 10:30:44 PM
LCOL state, but expensive hood, 2 adults (one is elderly with out of pocket health expenses) and 2 kids, $29k/year (this year with projected Dec spendings). And that's not the bare bones. We spend a lot on our 4 cats, brand new iphones this year for me and kids, nintendo switch+ games and new laptop for kids, tons of brand new books this year, unexpected repairs to the house and the car. The budget includes mortgage, car is paid off.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: StarBright on November 30, 2020, 06:50:11 AM
We could make 30k work if we had to, but it would be pushing it. I worked out our barebones budget last year when I was thinking of quitting - 32k a year for a family of 4. We tried it for about three months and I hated it.

Once the kids are grown and the mortgage is paid off, it should be cake as long as our property and local taxes don't continue their current doubling trend (they shouldn't).

Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Dicey on November 30, 2020, 07:21:18 AM
Don't want to, don't need to, don't have to, thank goodness! That's what my brain sings every time this thread pops up.

For many years, I struggled to balance home ownership in an actual HCOLA* and saving enough to RE. It often felt like it would never happen, but eventually it did. This shit works, people. Keep at it.

*IMO, there's a huge difference between "some areas are more expensive" and "every damn place is crazy expensive". I did the roommate thing for a very long time.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: iris lily on November 30, 2020, 09:20:49 AM
One person? Yes, for sure. Two of us are living between 30K and 35K in a middle COL city.  If we'd spend 45K it'd feel extravagant.

I know someone who has a benefit from the Veterans Department that’s about $30,000 a year. She can’t afford to live in California but she wants to live in California. But here in St. Louis she said she’s looking for a place to live and she can’t afford anything here either.

Since I look at rents in the city I know where there are small, clean, and safe rentals for $600 a month. She has no pets. She does not require a garage. There any number of places she can live and I gave her the ZIP Code to find them.

She says she can’t find Rentals and her friend won’t help her and she doesn’t work the computer very well.  So I texted to her several exact rental opportunities.

Next time I ran into her I asked her how it was going, the search for a place to live. She put on her sad face, her “I’m a victim” face and said she just can’t afford places. She mentioned where she was looking—in a very expensive area. VERY expensive. Hell even I wouldn’t be renting there and I have a few more million dollars than she does.

Next time I ran into her—same thing.

Then we ran into her friend who “ won’t help her.”  Not surprisingly, we learned that he also steered her the same direction as I did. That she actually spends hours a day on her cell phone which is for all intents and purposes a “computer.” That she continues to search for rentals in high end places. But  it is easier and cheaper to sponge off of him and to travel around sleeping in her friend’s guest rooms than to actually rent a place that she can afford.







Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: mistymoney on November 30, 2020, 11:31:07 AM
Can you live on 30k a year or less? I'm talking total expenditures for the year.

In Canada the median individual after tax income for 2018 was 25289.00 USD.
So over half the individuals in Canada took home much less than 30k US.

but with a better benefit package :P
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: StarBright on November 30, 2020, 11:33:30 AM
LCOL state, but expensive hood, 2 adults (one is elderly with out of pocket health expenses) and 2 kids, $29k/year (this year with projected Dec spendings). And that's not the bare bones. We spend a lot on our 4 cats, brand new iphones this year for me and kids, nintendo switch+ games and new laptop for kids, tons of brand new books this year, unexpected repairs to the house and the car. The budget includes mortgage, car is paid off.

I think that is impressive even in a LCOL area!
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: mistymoney on November 30, 2020, 11:40:11 AM
Don't want to, don't need to, don't have to, thank goodness! That's what my brain sings every time this thread pops up.



this made me chuckle.....

Yes - anyone could likely make this work - limiting the # of dependents/cohabitators involved...but wanting to pull the plug enough to sign up for doing it in perpetuity....a different question altogether I think.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: iris lily on December 01, 2020, 01:02:39 PM
One person? Yes, for sure. Two of us are living between 30K and 35K in a middle COL city.  If we'd spend 45K it'd feel extravagant.

I know someone who has a benefit from the Veterans Department that’s about $30,000 a year. She can’t afford to live in California but she wants to live in California. But here in St. Louis she said she’s looking for a place to live and she can’t afford anything here either.

Since I look at rents in the city I know where there are small, clean, and safe rentals for $600 a month. She has no pets. She does not require a garage. There any number of places she can live and I gave her the ZIP Code to find them.

She says she can’t find Rentals and her friend won’t help her and she doesn’t work the computer very well.  So I texted to her several exact rental opportunities.

Next time I ran into her I asked her how it was going, the search for a place to live. She put on her sad face, her “I’m a victim” face and said she just can’t afford places. She mentioned where she was looking—in a very expensive area. VERY expensive. Hell even I wouldn’t be renting there and I have a few more million dollars than she does.

Next time I ran into her—same thing.

Then we ran into her friend who “ won’t help her.”  Not surprisingly, we learned that he also steered her the same direction as I did. That she actually spends hours a day on her cell phone which is for all intents and purposes a “computer.” That she continues to search for rentals in high end places. But  it is easier and cheaper to sponge off of him and to travel around sleeping in her friend’s guest rooms than to actually rent a place that she can afford.
And considering that her VA benefit is totally tax free and she can get free healthcare thru the VA so her $30k should be enough to provide a decent place to live (even in Calif) and enough for extras. Here in HCOL coastal SoCal most singles have shared apt or rent rooms or studios. So could do that for much less out in the Midwest. Even in a fancy zip code. She could get a part time, temp or season job for extra income if she wanted more income. But like you said...excuses excuses.

She Complained about California housing, that there’s no public housing for middle income people like herself, it is  all for very low income people. Or richnpeople. She was looking at taxpayer  subsidized places.

I think she does work a little but dont know how much she can work. But then, she has jetted off to California for several weeks so a job would interfere with that. She is mentally ill and her disability money is for stress/PTSD caused by an attack by her superior in the service.

Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: secondcor521 on December 01, 2020, 02:44:14 PM
I can and currently do.  Annual rate is about $28K.

Paid off house and car.  ACA bronze HSA plan.  Metro suburbs in MCOL area.

I do have three young adult children who are in the process of launching, and I don't segregate out some of the expenses attributed to them (for example, my Food category feeds me and my two sons, and occasionally my third child when they are passing through town).  Utilities and income taxes are also entangled in similar ways.

That $28K also excludes college costs for them, which I pay for from a separate group of accounts.  Those separate accounts are currently sufficient to see them all through graduation with some extra.  One graduating in about two weeks, the other two are roughly sophomores.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: tj on December 01, 2020, 07:26:22 PM
Not if I buy real estate in HCOL area.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: FiveSigmas on December 02, 2020, 08:23:36 PM
Most years, yes I have. This year, hedonism has won.

#YOLO #SorryNotSorry #WellMaybeALittleSorry #ImOkayWithIt
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: tj on December 03, 2020, 05:39:31 PM
Not if I buy real estate in HCOL area.
Probably hard to buy even in a LCOL area unless you can live cheap for awhile to save up for a larger down payment.

Being in coastal SoCal and knowing lots of lower income earners, I found most rented a room or studio, saved as much as possible and then left the area if they wanted to buy.  Or (like me) were able to buy at the bottom of a housing crash when housing cost dropped 50% and then rent out rooms for a few years to help with expenses.  Of course most people were also unemployed at those times so that didn't work out every time. 

My sister rented a nice "studio" room (private entrance, bath and kitchenette) a few blocks from the beach in Manhatten Beach for under $800/month on average all inclusive. She saved a ton of money, quit her job and moved out of the area to a more affordable location and FIREd. She wasn't a high earner either. I think her expenses were around $1200/month.

 In the OPs case I believe he already had a paid off house and no debt. In that case $30k is very doable if you have affordable health insurance. That's always the kicker here in the US..

Uh, I doubt there would be Manhattan Beach studio at that price today. I'm looking at Long Beach or Seal Beach and there's nothing that is even close to that cheap that is a few blocks from the beach.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Schmidty on December 04, 2020, 01:15:13 AM
Yep, live on less than that now.  LCOL area, no rent/mortgage, 2 adults.  No problem.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: jim555 on December 04, 2020, 09:41:15 AM
I've been about half that for the last few years.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: tj on December 04, 2020, 07:28:08 PM
Not if I buy real estate in HCOL area.
Probably hard to buy even in a LCOL area unless you can live cheap for awhile to save up for a larger down payment.

Being in coastal SoCal and knowing lots of lower income earners, I found most rented a room or studio, saved as much as possible and then left the area if they wanted to buy.  Or (like me) were able to buy at the bottom of a housing crash when housing cost dropped 50% and then rent out rooms for a few years to help with expenses.  Of course most people were also unemployed at those times so that didn't work out every time. 

My sister rented a nice "studio" room (private entrance, bath and kitchenette) a few blocks from the beach in Manhatten Beach for under $800/month on average all inclusive. She saved a ton of money, quit her job and moved out of the area to a more affordable location and FIREd. She wasn't a high earner either. I think her expenses were around $1200/month.

 In the OPs case I believe he already had a paid off house and no debt. In that case $30k is very doable if you have affordable health insurance. That's always the kicker here in the US..

Uh, I doubt there would be Manhattan Beach studio at that price today. I'm looking at Long Beach or Seal Beach and there's nothing that is even close to that cheap that is a few blocks from the beach.
Yeah probably true. More like a room rental now. She moved from there about 2 years ago and was paying $785 all inclusive but it was at a private house that had 2 rental studios (ADUs) so owners in the big house were probably more flexible than a complex landlord.

Check out crazy craigslist for Belmont Shore or Heights. It is pretty inexpensive for studios and one bedrooms and house shares compared to Seal Beach and a fun place (I use to live in Belmont Shore).  Probably good deals now that Long Beach State and the other colleges aren't in full sesson.  But then anything is probably inexpensive compared to Hawaii ;-).

Actually, the rent seems much worse than it was in Hawaii. I was paying $1600 for fully furnished all utilities with private entrance in Hawaii. It was a ton of square footage too, not much of a kitchen though. 
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Laura Ingalls on December 05, 2020, 08:46:31 AM
That’s about what we have spent this year.  We are a family of 4 in a paid off house in a Low(ish) cost of living area.  This includes helping our college student with housing expenses (he had grants to cover tuition).

We would prefer to spend more and can easily afford too but this stupid pandemic is cramping our style.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: ctuser1 on December 06, 2020, 12:32:13 PM
No, we can't!

We are a family of 4 in a HCOL area. The carrying cost of our house (including amortized amounts set aside for all maintenance including lumpy ones like roof/furnace) is between $30-$40k. Once the mortgage is paid off, and we save the $6k/year in interest payment, the carrying cost should drop below $30k if you ignore the opportunity cost of the occupied capital.

Based on my number crunching, I have calculated that our base run rate is about $50k/year once our current house is paid off. Hence, this is my bare minimum Lean-FI number.

Note: I have gotten a lot of flak from people for putting this number out there. The criticism is justified from a certain point of view. I had done a similar "base run rate" calculation when we were renters and it came out much lower simply because renting the small apartment was a lot cheaper than "owning" a (small) SFH dwelling.  At that time, our "base run rate" was around $30k. We don't want to go back to the "apartment" lifestyle, however, and hence don't consider that to be a relevant option any more.
Ah! but your number is pretty impressive if you think of it as "per adult".
Your bare bones is $25k per adult.   In HCOL, with children.

Thank you. That way of looking at it makes me feel a lot better.

Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: steevven1 on December 06, 2020, 09:26:15 PM
Our worst spending year on record (https://www.tripofalifestyle.com/money/our-spending-revealed/) clocked in at $28,190 for two adults. Housing topped the list even though our condo is paid off (association dues suck). And paying full price for health insurance out-of-pocket as retirees came in second.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: LovinPSDs on December 08, 2020, 07:41:28 AM
Can't wait to send them all packing and move to Costa Rica.


YES!!!! That's what I'm talking about haha. I love Costa Rica.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: helloyou on December 09, 2020, 07:53:04 AM
I can live on half of that amount in London :)
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: terran on December 09, 2020, 01:02:56 PM
Yes, my wife and I regularly spend less than $30k/year even with an expensive international travel habit. It would be a stretch if we had to pay full health insurance rates (not employer subsidized, not living most of the year in other countries with lower cost international health insurance, and no ACA subsidies).
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: thorto0803 on December 14, 2020, 01:17:35 PM
we could but we don't.

DINK currently renting in a L/MCOL city (outside city center).

We will spend ~$33,700 this year not including charitable giving of about $9,000.

We could easily cut off $100/mo on eating out, $10/mo on subscriptions, $10/mo on utilties $40/mo on covered parking spaces, $200/mo on rent, and $200/mo on misc. unnecessary entertainment or "want" items, but we live very comfortably at our current spending level.



Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: fattest_foot on December 18, 2020, 11:59:40 AM
I think we could easily if not for health insurance. Maybe my math is bad, but between ACA coverage, deductibles, and prescriptions, I'm guessing we'll likely spend about $1200 a month for two.

Without that, our spend is likely around $20-25k.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: martyconlonontherun on December 18, 2020, 01:38:38 PM
Probably not $30k for 2 adults/1 kid at this point in my life but once I hit FI I will be able to do that:
P Taxes: $4k
Child Care: $20k
Food: $7k
Insurance: $1k
Capitalizable expenses?
Mortgage: $14k
Cars: $8k

Ignoring the capitalizable Expenses: Floor $35k, add in cash outflows: Floor $60k

I could see us living really well for $50k once we pay off the house/downsize.
 
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Evgenia on December 18, 2020, 01:46:59 PM
Sure. In our run-up to FIRE (5.5 years ago), we lived on $32k-$37k/year in the SF Bay Area. That included thousands of dollars of travel, so removing that would have put us at $30k and under. That said...

We definitely had some factors that skewed our situation: We were DINKs, and a big factor in terms of housing affordability was that we were able to purchase a small house in a not-yet-"desirable"/lesser known neighborhood (no longer, alas) home in 2012, not quite the bottom of the post-recession market but close, with low interest rates. And, we had a decent down payment. Lots of advantages that may not make this feasible for others, but $40k-or-less-per-annum was our pre-FIRE target that we tried to beat.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: SpareChange on December 19, 2020, 12:12:43 PM
Yes. Like a king. 1 person. Small apt. MCOL area (Ft. Worth).
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: billy on December 20, 2020, 09:18:18 AM
My wife and I, YTD spent $15,054
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: uniwelder on December 20, 2020, 09:52:06 AM
My wife and I, YTD spent $15,054

I'm curious to understand your annual budget.  In some other post, you mentioned paying $4,700 property tax and $1,000 per year for water.  I assume you own your house with no mortgage.  So the two of you spend the remaining $9,350 per year on what exactly?  Or is this particular year one in which you didn't pay any of the usual expenses you might normally encounter?  House maintenance, clothes, transportation, etc.

@spartana -- sorry, sent mine right after.  Same general question.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: billy on December 20, 2020, 10:35:44 AM
I made a bobo, since I normally track expenses from our net paycheck on our budget, I just added medical, dental, and spouse surcharges for the year, $3,380.52, so YTD is $18,435.

I try to copy everything mmm does, and we have no debt. Because of the rona we didn't take vacations this year.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: billy on December 20, 2020, 10:45:03 AM
I may need to improve on my budget tracking, as I don't count our withheld taxes from paycheck, but I just made an IRS payment of $1,220 as my work didn't withhold enough money, and I added that $1,220 to our budget as an expense, I also add IRS/state refunds as income to our budget. I wonder how others tack this on their budget?
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: tj on December 20, 2020, 11:47:34 AM
I may need to improve on my budget tracking, as I don't count our withheld taxes from paycheck, but I just made an IRS payment of $1,220 as my work didn't withhold enough money, and I added that $1,220 to our budget as an expense, I also add IRS/state refunds as income to our budget. I wonder how others tack this on their budget?

If you are going to stop working, you need to include tax payments in your retirement budget, unless you will live exclusively off Savings accounts and Roth IRA distributions.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: uniwelder on December 20, 2020, 12:07:49 PM
I try to copy everything mmm does...

Sorry, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.  When you say you copy what MMM does, does that also mean typical things that might go into the regular person's budget get allocated somewhere else?  Like how MMM doesn't pay for beer because its provided free of charge at the headquarters?  And vehicle, internet, and home office costs are considered business expenses?

The singular expenses known are quite costly, much more than I pay with an annual budget almost 2x higher.  You buy food, likely pay house/car/health insurance, utility bills (besides water), pets, house/car maintenance.  Even if you didn't have house maintenance expenses this particular year, its kinda cheating to pretend those expenses don't exist.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: NotJen on December 20, 2020, 12:36:04 PM
I may need to improve on my budget tracking, as I don't count our withheld taxes from paycheck, but I just made an IRS payment of $1,220 as my work didn't withhold enough money, and I added that $1,220 to our budget as an expense, I also add IRS/state refunds as income to our budget. I wonder how others tack this on their budget?

When I was working, I never had a budget, but I did religiously track my spending.  Taxes were absolutely a line-item in my annual spending - they were always the largest expense I had each year.  When I talked about my spending, I tried to note whether it was before-tax or after-tax numbers I was quoting.  I notice that when I first posted in this thread, I indicated that my low while-working spending for the last few years was after-tax.

Now that I'm FIRED, I do have a budget, and I do include taxes (although this year they are expected to be $0).  They are much more relevant/important now compared to when I was earning W2 income.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: billy on December 20, 2020, 12:49:50 PM
No, not doing creative accounting (shame on mmm), not pretending, just sharing my YTD spending not including income tax withheld. My future fire budget will include maintenance costs for sure.

NotJen, so currently my budget should include state/federal tax withholdings with my w-2 job? Right now my budget tracks money from net paychecks/after tax for simplicity sake, for my fire budget I plan on tracking everything I can to know my taxable income.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: NotJen on December 20, 2020, 01:07:44 PM
NotJen, so currently my budget should include state/federal tax withholdings with my w-2 job? Right now my budget tracks money from net paychecks/after tax for simplicity sake, for my fire budget I plan on tracking everything I can to know my taxable income.

IMO, (general) you have to track taxes for the numbers to add up.  But if (personal) you only want to track after-tax, then that's up to you -- budgeting and tracking expenses are personal decisions.  Just note that when comparing numbers with other people that your numbers are after-tax.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on December 20, 2020, 01:22:54 PM
I've never heard of anyone counting income taxes during accumulation as an expense.

ETA: Individual spending for 2020 will be ~$8,500 =D
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: tj on December 20, 2020, 05:48:22 PM
I may need to improve on my budget tracking, as I don't count our withheld taxes from paycheck, but I just made an IRS payment of $1,220 as my work didn't withhold enough money, and I added that $1,220 to our budget as an expense, I also add IRS/state refunds as income to our budget. I wonder how others tack this on their budget?

If you are going to stop working, you need to include tax payments in your retirement budget, unless you will live exclusively off Savings accounts and Roth IRA distributions.
Or you are able to keep your taxable income at or below $12k/year per person or $24k per couple. At least for fed and Calif standard deduction. But agreed that most should include expected income taxes into their overall expenses the same as any other expense. Although for the $30k and under people it might he a fairly small amount each year.

That's true. I'm pretty sure the CA standard deduction is smaller than the federal one though. unlike Arizona, which has a standard deduction that is identical to federal.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Sandi_k on December 21, 2020, 10:11:48 AM
I've never heard of anyone counting income taxes during accumulation as an expense.


I do. How else would you categorize it? Our taxes are estimated, so it's not unusual to have a tax bill even after we've calculated the previous year's taxes. We need to have allocated funds for any miscalculation - or weirdness, like this year's stimulus check.

And yes, I have taxes - both Fed and state - as an estimated expense in retirement as well.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Sandi_k on December 21, 2020, 10:13:23 AM

That's true. I'm pretty sure the CA standard deduction is smaller than the federal one though. unlike Arizona, which has a standard deduction that is identical to federal.
Yes Calif is less. I looked it up and seems to around $5k single (including one exemption) but there must be some other reductions to income tax as I haven't paid state tax in a long time and my taxable income is higher than that.
[/quote]

I believe that CA still allows the full deduction of SALT, unlike the Feds after the 2017 Tax Cut and Recovery Act.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: yachi on December 21, 2020, 12:19:36 PM
I've never heard of anyone counting income taxes during accumulation as an expense.


I do. How else would you categorize it? Our taxes are estimated, so it's not unusual to have a tax bill even after we've calculated the previous year's taxes. We need to have allocated funds for any miscalculation - or weirdness, like this year's stimulus check.

And yes, I have taxes - both Fed and state - as an estimated expense in retirement as well.

What if taxes end up negative?  With the Earned Income Tax Credit and the additional child tax credit, an income less that 30k and a few kids it easily can be.  The OP did qualify the 30k as "total expenditures".  Are taxes still an expenditure when negative...?
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: NotJen on December 22, 2020, 08:03:54 AM
I've never heard of anyone counting income taxes during accumulation as an expense.


I do. How else would you categorize it? Our taxes are estimated, so it's not unusual to have a tax bill even after we've calculated the previous year's taxes. We need to have allocated funds for any miscalculation - or weirdness, like this year's stimulus check.

And yes, I have taxes - both Fed and state - as an estimated expense in retirement as well.

What if taxes end up negative?  With the Earned Income Tax Credit and the additional child tax credit, an income less that 30k and a few kids it easily can be.  The OP did qualify the 30k as "total expenditures".  Are taxes still an expenditure when negative...?
They'd be an income.

Technically, taxes are on the income side for me this year.  I had no 2020 withholdings because I quit my W2 job last year.  No estimated payments because I don't expect to owe anything in 2020.  I received about $200 in refunds when I filed my taxes in Feb, so my spending tracks $200 of income due to taxes.

When I file my 2020 taxes in 2021, I'll likely come out ahead again because of the stimulus payment that I didn't get automatically this year.  Or it might just offset some withholdings or estimated taxes if I end up earning some money next year.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: billy on December 22, 2020, 12:22:32 PM
I updated my budget and removed tax payments/refunds, while I have my w-2 job, so I can easily see my cost of living including medical and dental and plan appropriately. And it will be easier to share with others my yearly household spending, as peoples tax payments vary obviously. On a side note, I just updated my w-4 to try to break even next year.

I can see if you pay quarterly taxes/additional estimated tax payments, you definitely want to track that for record keeping separately.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: American GenX on December 22, 2020, 12:25:51 PM
Can you live on 30k a year or less? I'm talking total expenditures for the year.

LOL.  You say that like it's not much, but it's about double what I've spent from my take home pay yearly in recent years.

I'm a single person with no kids and a paid off home, and I would really have to ramp up my discretionary spending to spend $30K per y ear, and I don't plan to do that until I FIRE.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: MyAlterEgoIsTaller on December 22, 2020, 01:18:19 PM
I can't, because of my mortgage and student loan payments. 
I have the resources to pay off both, but the interest rates are low, especially for the mortgage, so it hasn't seemed like the best move.
Not counting those 2 payments, what I spent from take-home pay this year was $17,532.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: fattest_foot on December 22, 2020, 04:23:56 PM
I believe that CA still allows the full deduction of SALT, unlike the Feds after the 2017 Tax Cut and Recovery Act.

Well, you obviously can't deduct the S portion of SALT, as you'd be deducting CA taxes from themselves. But I definitely write off things like property taxes and car registration fees on my CA taxes.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Retireatee1 on December 22, 2020, 07:00:22 PM
I have some bare bones retirement plans worked up, and $30K/yr in expenses is pretty tight in the Southeast.

When you add in "hidden" expenses like home maintenance and vehicle depreciation, your average annual expenses can be higher than you think.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Malum Prohibitum on December 23, 2020, 11:01:00 AM
Thanks to the PPACA, health insurance for my family for 2021 is close to $30,000 at the cheap end all by itself, and up to almost twice that if you want to purchase less cheap health insurance.

So, no.  I cannot possibly live on $30k a year.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: dizzy on December 23, 2020, 12:05:00 PM
Also Philly- recently across the bridge to NJ, never spent $30k a year.  Do not consider Philly HCOL.  Maybe moderate COL?
Hope to gawd I never spend $30k a year.  Right now maybe spending $750-800 a month, with $1k total budgeted (funsies).  Hearing people are spending $30k a year on health insurance is just nuts to me.  Why is it so high?  Mine has either been $0 or 40/month (I get a bronze plan with HSA, or medicaid in years I qualified).  I'm single without kids fwiw.  My partner has been unemployed since March so he qualified for a marketplace plan next year, I think he picked a silver one and is paying $40ish for that and $10 for dental.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: jim555 on December 23, 2020, 12:08:46 PM
Since I retired I haven't paid any premium for health cover due to low income.  Thanks PPACA.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: tj on December 23, 2020, 06:16:02 PM
I believe that CA still allows the full deduction of SALT, unlike the Feds after the 2017 Tax Cut and Recovery Act.

Well, you obviously can't deduct the S portion of SALT, as you'd be deducting CA taxes from themselves. But I definitely write off things like property taxes and car registration fees on my CA taxes.
Calif doesn't have too many deductions any longer - and I was initially talking about just the standard deduction plus exemption not itemizing - so wouldn't matter. In my case I have very low "taxable" income and haven't paid fed or CA state taxes since FIREing other then for house sale purposes. But it seemed that my taxable income was several thousand above the standard deduction plus exemption amount.

Does that mean you are on MediCAL?
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: tj on December 23, 2020, 06:16:35 PM
Can you live on 30k a year or less? I'm talking total expenditures for the year.

LOL.  You say that like it's not much, but it's about double what I've spent from my take home pay yearly in recent years.

I'm a single person with no kids and a paid off home, and I would really have to ramp up my discretionary spending to spend $30K per y ear, and I don't plan to do that until I FIRE.

The paid off home helps a lot with that.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: brooklynmoney on December 23, 2020, 08:59:13 PM
No, no I cannot not will I try to.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: stacheasaurus on December 23, 2020, 11:54:27 PM
total 2020 spend will be right around 27k; includes major cross country move!  2021 should be 24k-26k
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: tj on December 26, 2020, 12:41:43 PM
I believe that CA still allows the full deduction of SALT, unlike the Feds after the 2017 Tax Cut and Recovery Act.

Well, you obviously can't deduct the S portion of SALT, as you'd be deducting CA taxes from themselves. But I definitely write off things like property taxes and car registration fees on my CA taxes.
Calif doesn't have too many deductions any longer - and I was initially talking about just the standard deduction plus exemption not itemizing - so wouldn't matter. In my case I have very low "taxable" income and haven't paid fed or CA state taxes since FIREing other then for house sale purposes. But it seemed that my taxable income was several thousand above the standard deduction plus exemption amount.

Does that mean you are on MediCAL?
Nope. I can use the VA for free/low cost medical because I have a military service connected disability. I also get some tax-free compensation for that ($630/month) that I don't need to include as income for taxes but would probably be used for MediCAL (Medicaid) calculations. Plus some already-taxed (Roth) investments within my state pension that I started tapping at 50. Before that mostly cash/laddered CDs. My current total income this past year will be exactly $30k but since I didn't travel much and have been car-free the whole year beside occasional rentals, I used less than half that amount. Most, maybe all, isn't taxable (yay).

Interesting - so does that mean are you just not covered if you travel within the US to somewhere that doesn't have a VA facility nearby?

Living in CA off $30k per year would certainly becomes drastically easier when one has no need to purchase health insurance, a non-taxed pension, and lives primairly off investment income and Roth accounts rather than wages...also if one purchased RE decades ago, that would help quite a bit too.


When I said I couldn't live off $30k per year in CA if I bought real estate, that's because, right now, a mortgage + HOA + property taxes for a 1BR that wasn't built 100 years ago, is pretty much $30k on the real estate alone.  Hence I won't be buying when i move back to CA, but I'll still probably be spending at least $20k/yr easily on rent, and probably another $20k on life. That doesn't include income taxes or retirement savings of course.


Life is much cheaper when you are not working though...unless you need health insurance and are pre-medicare age and have too much investment or retirement income to qualify for the ACA tax credits.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: tj on December 27, 2020, 09:35:37 PM
I believe that CA still allows the full deduction of SALT, unlike the Feds after the 2017 Tax Cut and Recovery Act.

Well, you obviously can't deduct the S portion of SALT, as you'd be deducting CA taxes from themselves. But I definitely write off things like property taxes and car registration fees on my CA taxes.
Calif doesn't have too many deductions any longer - and I was initially talking about just the standard deduction plus exemption not itemizing - so wouldn't matter. In my case I have very low "taxable" income and haven't paid fed or CA state taxes since FIREing other then for house sale purposes. But it seemed that my taxable income was several thousand above the standard deduction plus exemption amount.

Does that mean you are on MediCAL?
Nope. I can use the VA for free/low cost medical because I have a military service connected disability. I also get some tax-free compensation for that ($630/month) that I don't need to include as income for taxes but would probably be used for MediCAL (Medicaid) calculations. Plus some already-taxed (Roth) investments within my state pension that I started tapping at 50. Before that mostly cash/laddered CDs. My current total income this past year will be exactly $30k but since I didn't travel much and have been car-free the whole year beside occasional rentals, I used less than half that amount. Most, maybe all, isn't taxable (yay).

Interesting - so does that mean are you just not covered if you travel within the US to somewhere that doesn't have a VA facility nearby?

Living in CA off $30k per year would certainly becomes drastically easier when one has no need to purchase health insurance, a non-taxed pension, and lives primairly off investment income and Roth accounts rather than wages...also if one purchased RE decades ago, that would help quite a bit too.


When I said I couldn't live off $30k per year in CA if I bought real estate, that's because, right now, a mortgage + HOA + property taxes for a 1BR that wasn't built 100 years ago, is pretty much $30k on the real estate alone.  Hence I won't be buying when i move back to CA, but I'll still probably be spending at least $20k/yr easily on rent, and probably another $20k on life. That doesn't include income taxes or retirement savings of course.


Life is much cheaper when you are not working though...unless you need health insurance and are pre-medicare age and have too much investment or retirement income to qualify for the ACA tax credits.
Yes on all fronts. I can use the VA anywhere and anytime while in the US but not overseas so would need travellers insurance. If I'm not near a VA facility somewhere in the US and have an emergency then the VA will allow me to go to a regular hospital until I can be sent to a VA facility. When I first retired I did pay for COBRA and, when that expired, then got a Blue Cross catastrophic policy. Had that until the ACA came along.and those kinds of policies vanished. However I did make sure to include medical insurance costs in my FIRE number so could cover a reasonably priced ACA policy if needed.

So all that helps me be able to live in a HCOL area on very little. Buying a house during the bottom of the Great Recession housing market helped too.  Having a couple of roommates and living very frugally too. For people wanting to live here who are just starting out then a roommate situation is just about the only way to save. Plus keeping taxable income low to qualify for ACA subsidies or Medicaid.

FWIW With a paid off house and no or low medical costs I can.actually live on less than $1000/month ($600 is barebones most months including annual expenses like house taxes and insurances). Throw in a roommate or two and all my expenses would be covered and I'd have some beer money left over ;-).

I'm definitely kicking myself for not buying somewhere coastal when I had bought inland. Oh well, i can't complain about how my life has turned out on that front. ;)
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: spaniard999 on January 05, 2021, 09:10:15 AM
Totally doable.

2019 I spent 26k and that includes trips to Whistler to ski, Spain to visit family and California for a family trip.
I also split rent with my SO but it is 7.2k a year each. We live in Chicago.

2020 I spent 16k including ALL my expenses. Didnt make that many trips due to covid :(
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: clarkfan1979 on January 09, 2021, 07:24:57 AM
When I was in grad school, my living expenses were 18K/year from age 27 to 32. For full disclosure, my total expenses were 20K because I had to pay $1500/year for student fees and another $500/year for books/printing.  This was 2007 to 2011.

As a single person, I can definitely live on 30K/year. In my opinion, you need to attack the big 3 (housing, transportation, food). The simple answer to this is roommates, used car ($5,000 or less) and mostly eating at home. You can still travel if you use credit card points and stay with friends.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Dreamer40 on January 09, 2021, 12:21:58 PM
I have before out of necessity, but wouldn’t want to for the future. I live in a high-ish cost of living area in my dream house very near family, which is exactly where I want to be. I also want more flexibility and luxury than that budget would allow. I frickin’ love my giant TV and good quality wine. But have always been perfectly happy to share a car with my hubby and wear jeans from Target until they fall apart. Just depends on what feels worth it to you!
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: G-String on February 01, 2021, 05:06:51 PM
Here's my proposed retirement budget, once I have no mortgage. I live in Canada so no health care expenses.

$365 property tax
$100 Car insurance
$300 Vehicle fund (maintenance & new car)
$500 vacation fund
$120 TV & Internet
$130 Hydro
$60 Cell phone
$500 gas & groceries & food
$50 water
$100 miscellaneous
$100 home maintenance
$75 home insurance
Total: $2400/month = $28,800/year

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Metalcat on February 01, 2021, 06:31:57 PM
Here's my proposed retirement budget, once I have no mortgage. I live in Canada so no health care expenses.

$365 property tax
$100 Car insurance
$300 Vehicle fund (maintenance & new car)
$500 vacation fund
$120 TV & Internet
$130 Hydro
$60 Cell phone
$500 gas & groceries & food
$50 water
$100 miscellaneous
$100 home maintenance
$75 home insurance
Total: $2400/month = $28,800/year

Thoughts?

I would probably start a new thread for this if you want the most effective answers.

However, I see nothing for clothing, entertainment, or gifts. The home maintenance amount seems low to me, unless you live in an apartment or condo and don't have any roof or outside elements to maintain. Also, don't assume no healthcare expenses. Prescriptions, dental, glasses, physio, massage, etc can all add up if you develop some very common, age related issues and don't have private insurance. Even if you do, they can still add up.

I used to make a lot of money off of patients for uninsured services, often to the tune of thousands in a given year.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: G-String on February 01, 2021, 07:22:26 PM
Here's my proposed retirement budget, once I have no mortgage. I live in Canada so no health care expenses.

$365 property tax
$100 Car insurance
$300 Vehicle fund (maintenance & new car)
$500 vacation fund
$120 TV & Internet
$130 Hydro
$60 Cell phone
$500 gas & groceries & food
$50 water
$100 miscellaneous
$100 home maintenance
$75 home insurance
Total: $2400/month = $28,800/year

Thoughts?

I would probably start a new thread for this if you want the most effective answers.

However, I see nothing for clothing, entertainment, or gifts. The home maintenance amount seems low to me, unless you live in an apartment or condo and don't have any roof or outside elements to maintain. Also, don't assume no healthcare expenses. Prescriptions, dental, glasses, physio, massage, etc can all add up if you develop some very common, age related issues and don't have private insurance. Even if you do, they can still add up.

I used to make a lot of money off of patients for uninsured services, often to the tune of thousands in a given year.
Good idea to start it's own thread. Thanks!

I've got a government pension so prescriptions will be 90% covered.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Metalcat on February 02, 2021, 06:33:01 AM
Here's my proposed retirement budget, once I have no mortgage. I live in Canada so no health care expenses.

$365 property tax
$100 Car insurance
$300 Vehicle fund (maintenance & new car)
$500 vacation fund
$120 TV & Internet
$130 Hydro
$60 Cell phone
$500 gas & groceries & food
$50 water
$100 miscellaneous
$100 home maintenance
$75 home insurance
Total: $2400/month = $28,800/year

Thoughts?

I would probably start a new thread for this if you want the most effective answers.

However, I see nothing for clothing, entertainment, or gifts. The home maintenance amount seems low to me, unless you live in an apartment or condo and don't have any roof or outside elements to maintain. Also, don't assume no healthcare expenses. Prescriptions, dental, glasses, physio, massage, etc can all add up if you develop some very common, age related issues and don't have private insurance. Even if you do, they can still add up.

I used to make a lot of money off of patients for uninsured services, often to the tune of thousands in a given year.
Good idea to start it's own thread. Thanks!

I've got a government pension so prescriptions will be 90% covered.

Definitely start a thread, there are probably more details like this that people need to actually be able to help you. Budgets aren't as simple as looking at a stranger's list and saying "yep, that looks good", the whole benefit of asking a place like this is so that people can ask you a ton of questions to see if there's anything you might have missed.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Digger1000 on February 02, 2021, 06:48:53 PM
I live on 14k a year. I retired 4 years ago at age 51. $0 state and federal income taxes and $0 health insurance premiums with ACA. I have everything I need or want.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Digger1000 on February 03, 2021, 03:52:23 PM
I live on 14k a year. I retired 4 years ago at age 51. $0 state and federal income taxes and $0 health insurance premiums with ACA. I have everything I need or want.
What's your housing situation? Rent or own? Roomates? Van down by the river ;-)? Same with transportation cost. I can technically live on the same (but spend more fun stuff)  but that was with a paid off house that had low prop taxes, insurance, utilities, and maintence. Ditto for a vehicle.
I pay $695 a month in rent for a 1 bed RM apt. In a Cleveland suburb. I'm not a cord cutter, I have directv. I drive a 1997 accord which I bought 10 years ago last Sunday for $3200. The car before that I bought in 1989, a new Toyota Tercel for 7k. I shop at Aldi and spend on average  around $55 every 2 weeks. I never eat out. I've ate out once in 3 years, I bought 3 dollar burgers at BK when travelling out of state in 2019. My net worth is up 61% in the 4 years since retirement.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: roomtempmayo on February 03, 2021, 04:57:42 PM
When I was in grad school, my living expenses were 18K/year from age 27 to 32. For full disclosure, my total expenses were 20K because I had to pay $1500/year for student fees and another $500/year for books/printing.  This was 2007 to 2011.

As a single person, I can definitely live on 30K/year. In my opinion, you need to attack the big 3 (housing, transportation, food). The simple answer to this is roommates, used car ($5,000 or less) and mostly eating at home. You can still travel if you use credit card points and stay with friends.
Probably medical insurance too. That's likely to be a larger expense then food or transportation unless you have employer insurance or a big ACA subsidy.

I was looking over our tax documents the other day, and I noticed that the total cost of our employer sponsored health plans was about $17k for two adults.  I'm guessing most people aren't including their employer's contribution in their spending, but it's really just compensation that's spent before the employee sees it.

Whether I live on more or less than $30k depends entirely on what and how I decide to count as a living expense.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: ixtap on February 03, 2021, 05:26:39 PM
When I was in grad school, my living expenses were 18K/year from age 27 to 32. For full disclosure, my total expenses were 20K because I had to pay $1500/year for student fees and another $500/year for books/printing.  This was 2007 to 2011.

As a single person, I can definitely live on 30K/year. In my opinion, you need to attack the big 3 (housing, transportation, food). The simple answer to this is roommates, used car ($5,000 or less) and mostly eating at home. You can still travel if you use credit card points and stay with friends.
Probably medical insurance too. That's likely to be a larger expense then food or transportation unless you have employer insurance or a big ACA subsidy.

I was looking over our tax documents the other day, and I noticed that the total cost of our employer sponsored health plans was about $17k for two adults.  I'm guessing most people aren't including their employer's contribution in their spending, but it's really just compensation that's spent before the employee sees it.

Whether I live on more or less than $30k depends entirely on what and how I decide to count as a living expense.

We don't count it in our current spending but we do use it as a stand in for COBRA payments for the first year.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: jim555 on February 05, 2021, 11:43:13 AM
I live on 14k a year. I retired 4 years ago at age 51. $0 state and federal income taxes and $0 health insurance premiums with ACA. I have everything I need or want.
You sound very similar to me financially.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Digger1000 on February 05, 2021, 12:01:58 PM
I live on 14k a year. I retired 4 years ago at age 51. $0 state and federal income taxes and $0 health insurance premiums with ACA. I have everything I need or want.
What's your housing situation? Rent or own? Roomates? Van down by the river ;-)? Same with transportation cost. I can technically live on the same (but spend more fun stuff)  but that was with a paid off house that had low prop taxes, insurance, utilities, and maintence. Ditto for a vehicle.
I pay $695 a month in rent for a 1 bed RM apt. In a Cleveland suburb. I'm not a cord cutter, I have directv. I drive a 1997 accord which I bought 10 years ago last Sunday for $3200. The car before that I bought in 1989, a new Toyota Tercel for 7k. I shop at Aldi and spend on average  around $55 every 2 weeks. I never eat out. I've ate out once in 3 years, I bought 3 dollar burgers at BK when travelling out of state in 2019. My net worth is up 61% in the 4 years since retirement.
I was going to ask if you are lean FIRE and if you had contingencies in place if your circumstances changed and you needed more money. But then I saw in another thread that your investable assets (stash) is over a million so you are obviously living well under the 4% rule so doing good!! Any desire to spend more? Or do you plan to leave a large amount as an inheritance after you die? I don't have kids or much family so was planning on spending more now on travel (haha) but anythi g left will go to a charity.
Yes I have a desire to spend more. But I am extremely happy to be spending what I am. I find not working to be extremely luxurious. I mean I did love the work part of my job. Absolutely adored that part of the job and planned on working until 65. But the people made it unbearable to deal with. So I pulled the plug. I am happier every single day that I did so. 3 1/2 months before I quit is the 1st I started looking into things if I decided to leave the work force. This site and earlyretirement website gave me the info I needed. But things have been even easier than I thought they would be. I thought I'd be paying $60 a month or more to ACA. Instead I'm paying $0 premiums. I also thought I would have state income taxes but I moved to Ohio and then after I moved here they changed their tax rates to 0% on the first 24k, plus I have a 3k longterm capital gains loss every year so I could make 27k and not pay any state income tax. I had no idea Ohio was going to change their tax rate.

I'm 99% stocks. So I need to be very careful in spending. And of course anytime your taking out instead of putting in you need to be very careful. In terms of the 99% stocks, I always view myself as having half of my net worth because stocks can certainly plummet at  least that far at anytime no questions asked.

But yes at some point in time I see myself spending much more if the money is there. For sure once I hit 65, if my net worth is large. At 65 I'd be on medicare. I plan on taking SS at 70, which itself will be more than I'm living on now. I'm converting 15k a year currently to a Roth. So for at least 3 years I see myself spending what I currently am. Maybe in 3-5 years I'll start spending a little more. But I would like to keep the $0 ACA premium until 65. So between 60 and 65 I'll just have to determine how much I want to spend because that could/would effect how much I can convert to a Roth tax free.

Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Digger1000 on February 05, 2021, 12:18:47 PM
I live on 14k a year. I retired 4 years ago at age 51. $0 state and federal income taxes and $0 health insurance premiums with ACA. I have everything I need or want.
What's your housing situation? Rent or own? Roomates? Van down by the river ;-)? Same with transportation cost. I can technically live on the same (but spend more fun stuff)  but that was with a paid off house that had low prop taxes, insurance, utilities, and maintence. Ditto for a vehicle.
I pay $695 a month in rent for a 1 bed RM apt. In a Cleveland suburb. I'm not a cord cutter, I have directv. I drive a 1997 accord which I bought 10 years ago last Sunday for $3200. The car before that I bought in 1989, a new Toyota Tercel for 7k. I shop at Aldi and spend on average  around $55 every 2 weeks. I never eat out. I've ate out once in 3 years, I bought 3 dollar burgers at BK when travelling out of state in 2019. My net worth is up 61% in the 4 years since retirement.
I was going to ask if you are lean FIRE and if you had contingencies in place if your circumstances changed and you needed more money. But then I saw in another thread that your investable assets (stash) is over a million so you are obviously living well under the 4% rule so doing good!! Any desire to spend more? Or do you plan to leave a large amount as an inheritance after you die? I don't have kids or much family so was planning on spending more now on travel (haha) but anythi g left will go to a charity.

So for the last 10 years before I pulled the plug at age 51 I had thought I would work until 65. I was always running numbers and thinking I can hit 3 or 4 million by 65. So I thought since the S&P 500 cagr is 9% that means I can spend 270k a year in retirement since the S&P returns 9%. Then I found out about the 4% rule a few years before I pulled the plug. I didnt understand it at 1st but I grew to understand and embrace it. When my work environment grew to a toxic level well above a sewer I realized hey I can live on well below 4% in retirement right now if I continue living like I have lived my entire life, I've always been very frugal. Since then I have come to be a believer in the 3% rule. My average yearly spending in retirement has been 2.3%.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Digger1000 on February 08, 2021, 09:03:17 PM
I finally got around to running the numbers on my 2020 spending. My total spending in 2020 was $13,205.94.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: BlueMR2 on February 13, 2021, 12:27:46 PM
2020 we got by *just* barely under 25k, but it was a really good year.  Averaging under 30k over a number of years would be tough.  Owning a house includes periodic $5,000 - $10,000 repairs that pop up and drive that average up.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: firefoxes on February 24, 2021, 02:40:13 PM
Hopefully someday! For now our household of two in a HCOL is hitting 36k/year. 50% of that is rent. Theoretically home ownership would greatly reduce that eventually, even with planning for major repairs/taxes/misc expenses.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Retireatee1 on February 24, 2021, 02:55:21 PM
2020 we got by *just* barely under 25k, but it was a really good year.  Averaging under 30k over a number of years would be tough.  Owning a house includes periodic $5,000 - $10,000 repairs that pop up and drive that average up.

The number I use for long-term planning of home maintenance costs is 1% of the home value per year.  So most years you come out ahead, but eventually your time is up.  I think in the case of my house that percentage might be low.
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Sydney9 on February 25, 2021, 02:01:36 PM
Geez, just ran my numbers and I've been spending less than $20k a year this past year. My monthly budget is around $1600 per month. Perks to no healthcare costs (in UK) and being a public transit lover, I suppose. But maybe I'm taking this frugal thing way too seriously haha...
Title: Re: Can you live on 30k a year?
Post by: Retireatee1 on February 25, 2021, 02:59:17 PM
That doesn't seem very efficient as I would think costs would be too varied depending on size of home and location. A $5 million dollar 1000 SF home in Aspen isn't going to cost much more maintenance-wise than a $100k house of the same size in Fargo would.

That may be true, it's just a rule of thumb I picked up along my travels which seems to fit the average household fairly well.  If you are lucky enough to own a $5 million home you'll just have to put in the time and effort to budget more fittingly.