Our lifestyle that has helped us grow our 'Stache

[fireready]

We have been living the Stache life well before we started growing our Stache, basically cause we were poor and had to figure it out.
Our tips/lifestyle:

- Almost all of our clothes come from Goodwill or garage sales.  Rarely buy new clothes.  Same with all of our kids as we raised them.  Now they all thrift for clothes as they are adults.
- We have been cutting our own hair for years.  Me for the past 27 years, my wife a bit more recently.  Our twin girls cut their own hair as well. 
- We do all of our own work around the house.  No "guy" for anything.  My dad was a carpenter and I learned young to work.  Better to buy the tools needed and learn a skill than waste money paying someone else to do it.  With youtube and the internet now, the resources to help are unlimited.
- We rarely go out to eat.  Maybe once per month if it is in the budget.  Eating out is ridiculously expensive.  We buy real, whole foods and cook. 
- I make my lunches on Sunday for the entire week at work (I work 4/10's).  Saves a ton of money on lunches.
- I ride my bicycle to work every day, all year round.  Just have the right gear and it doesn't matter if it is snowing, raining, whatever.  Been doing this for 23 years now.
- We have never bought a new car.  We have embarrassedly financed used cars in the past when we were not as enlightened.  I sold our big Dodge Ram truck I was proud of owing (paid for) and decided to buy an old Volvo wagon and use the profits (kinda profits?) to jump start our Stache.  That one decision changed the course of our future.
- We drive old cars I can work on.  I am the mechanic and keep them in good order.  Our newest car we own is a 2002.
- We have a large garden for veggies and reuse all of our grey water from our washing machine to water the garden all summer.  With 5 people in the house, we unfortunately do more laundry than I would like, but at least we reuse the water.
- We hang dry all of our laundry when it is not raining.  Dryers use a ton of electricity.
- Wear sweaters or blankets in the winter to keep the temp lower.  No heat on at all overnight.  Oregon has a mildish climate.
- We budget.  When any "play" money is used, it is gone.  There is no more.  If you used it on the first of the month, gotta wait a month for more.
- Use the library to check our books instead of buying.
- We have no streaming services/cable.  Plenty of free options out there if you wanna watch TV
- Cheap pay as you go cell plans.  Never buy new phones unless they break/die then its off to Backmarket to buy a cheap used one.
- Don't take any destination vacations.  Never have.  We travel in our old VW campervan and see AMAZING places for free.  Well, just the cost of gas.

I am sure there are more I am forgetting due to them just being part of our lives.  Our biggest asset is the ability to be uncomfortable.  To adapt.  To understand that some sacrifice today, will result in dreams tomorrow.  We can go without.  In fact, sometimes we cherish it.

We have a quote on the wall that states "We do what others won't so we can live like others can't"

All of this life education plus reading every article on Mr.MoneyMoustache has allowed us to eek our savings rate to 73% and our FIRE date is around three years away.   We didn't even get serious with FIRE until 5 years or so ago.   This is with raising 4 girls in an expensive city and my wife and I with no college education.  I have managed a factory for years (28 years in the same company) so I do not have a fancy high tech job.  We do make good money but we live like we don't. 

Hope this helps anyone else out there looking for ideas.  What has your journey looked like to grow your Stache?

Fireready

[uniwelder]

All of this life education plus reading every article on Mr.MoneyMoustache has allowed us to eek our savings rate to 73% and our FIRE date is around three years away.   

Good job!

[fireready]

All of this life education plus reading every article on Mr.MoneyMoustache has allowed us to eek our savings rate to 73% and our FIRE date is around three years away.   

Good job!

Thanks, it has been a journey getting there!  I thought when we hit 50% rate, we were doing good.  Continued to make lifestyle changes coupled with career advancements got us there.

[clarkfan1979]

We have been living the Stache life well before we started growing our Stache, basically cause we were poor and had to figure it out.
Our tips/lifestyle:

- Almost all of our clothes come from Goodwill or garage sales.  Rarely buy new clothes.  Same with all of our kids as we raised them.  Now they all thrift for clothes as they are adults.
- We have been cutting our own hair for years.  Me for the past 27 years, my wife a bit more recently.  Our twin girls cut their own hair as well. 
- We do all of our own work around the house.  No "guy" for anything.  My dad was a carpenter and I learned young to work.  Better to buy the tools needed and learn a skill than waste money paying someone else to do it.  With youtube and the internet now, the resources to help are unlimited.
- We rarely go out to eat.  Maybe once per month if it is in the budget.  Eating out is ridiculously expensive.  We buy real, whole foods and cook. 
- I make my lunches on Sunday for the entire week at work (I work 4/10's).  Saves a ton of money on lunches.
- I ride my bicycle to work every day, all year round.  Just have the right gear and it doesn't matter if it is snowing, raining, whatever.  Been doing this for 23 years now.
- We have never bought a new car.  We have embarrassedly financed used cars in the past when we were not as enlightened.  I sold our big Dodge Ram truck I was proud of owing (paid for) and decided to buy an old Volvo wagon and use the profits (kinda profits?) to jump start our Stache.  That one decision changed the course of our future.
- We drive old cars I can work on.  I am the mechanic and keep them in good order.  Our newest car we own is a 2002.
- We have a large garden for veggies and reuse all of our grey water from our washing machine to water the garden all summer.  With 5 people in the house, we unfortunately do more laundry than I would like, but at least we reuse the water.
- We hang dry all of our laundry when it is not raining.  Dryers use a ton of electricity.
- Wear sweaters or blankets in the winter to keep the temp lower.  No heat on at all overnight.  Oregon has a mildish climate.
- We budget.  When any "play" money is used, it is gone.  There is no more.  If you used it on the first of the month, gotta wait a month for more.
- Use the library to check our books instead of buying.
- We have no streaming services/cable.  Plenty of free options out there if you wanna watch TV
- Cheap pay as you go cell plans.  Never buy new phones unless they break/die then its off to Backmarket to buy a cheap used one.
- Don't take any destination vacations.  Never have.  We travel in our old VW campervan and see AMAZING places for free.  Well, just the cost of gas.

I am sure there are more I am forgetting due to them just being part of our lives.  Our biggest asset is the ability to be uncomfortable.  To adapt.  To understand that some sacrifice today, will result in dreams tomorrow.  We can go without.  In fact, sometimes we cherish it.

We have a quote on the wall that states "We do what others won't so we can live like others can't"

All of this life education plus reading every article on Mr.MoneyMoustache has allowed us to eek our savings rate to 73% and our FIRE date is around three years away.   We didn't even get serious with FIRE until 5 years or so ago.   This is with raising 4 girls in an expensive city and my wife and I with no college education.  I have managed a factory for years (28 years in the same company) so I do not have a fancy high tech job.  We do make good money but we live like we don't. 

Hope this helps anyone else out there looking for ideas.  What has your journey looked like to grow your Stache?

Fireready

I want to applaud you for doing meal prep on your day off. It would be very easy for someone to say, "well, I work 10 hour days, so I have no chance to cook at home" Meal prep seems like a great fit because you have 3 days off. Great job on being disciplined and making it happen.

When I meal prep, I often have more time to exercise, which makes the week a completely different experience.

[fireready]

I want to applaud you for doing meal prep on your day off. It would be very easy for someone to say, "well, I work 10 hour days, so I have no chance to cook at home" Meal prep seems like a great fit because you have 3 days off. Great job on being disciplined and making it happen.

When I meal prep, I often have more time to exercise, which makes the week a completely different experience.

Thanks.  Beats trying to figure out at 5:00am what to bring for lunch.  Since I ride to work, I cannot just go grab something.  Forced habit that has really paid off

[Chris Pascale]

Love the list. I'm sure you're sparking up some old habits for someone here.

I'm currently puttering around in a 2010 Honda Odyssey with over 210k miles. It's trying to tell me to send it to a farm upstate, but the last time it broke down (June) it only cost $400 to fix. We bought a 2019 Carolla with 30k miles, a great car for the next kid to take on 3-4 years from now (I offer to sell them my car for $2,000 when they get their license).

[fireready]

Honda's will run forever if you keep them maintained.  Even $1200 per year in maintenance is 20% the cost of a newer car payment.  As our kids grew up and started driving, they had to buy all of their own cars with the money they made from their jobs in high school.  I did let our twins borrow some as they couldn't find high school jobs during the pandemic but they had to pay me back all of it.  They totally understand the value of a dollar and should be on their way to their own Stache's as they get older.

Love what this site has done for our outlook and more recently, this forum.  I did not visit this part until recently and have learned a ton on tax strategies and ACA info.  Amazing.

[draco44]

- We hang dry all of our laundry when it is not raining.  Dryers use a ton of electricity.

Fantastic list! Well done on using MMM strategies to focus on your family and accomplish everything that's important to you in life.

This may be challenging with a family generating as much laundry as yours but I wanted to make a plug for drying clothes indoors too using folding clothing racks and/or indoor hanging lines. That's been a winning strategy wherever I've lived. A free-standing folding rack works especially well for apartment life.

Again, nice going!

[clarkfan1979]

This might not be well received on this forum, but my spendy-pants bad habit is travel. From age 32 to 36, I would agonize over the trade-off of the cost of the travel and the pleasure of the trip, with the largest cost being plane tickets. I got my first credit-card at age 36 and I've been doing the credit card points game for the past 8 years. The travel is now severely discounted and I don't question it. I just book it and move on with my life.

 

[Telecaster]

We have a quote on the wall that states "We do what others won't so we can live like others can't"

Love it.   My ne'er do well in-laws were incapable of understanding why we didn't turn up the thermostat in winter or drove old cars.   Now they are still completely broke and I'm retired. 

[Cassie]

I spent my entire life driving cars until they get too expensive to maintain and packing my lunch for work. Those 2 items can be big money leaks.

[fireready]

I spent my entire life driving cars until they get too expensive to maintain and packing my lunch for work. Those 2 items can be big money leaks.

Agreed.  Not sure how people justify going out to eat everyday for lunch.  Even worse, people are having food DELIVERED to work for extra money.  Ugh.

[Just Joe]

Parking is just hard enough at my work place that hardly any of us go anywhere for lunch anymore. I did do an errand to the bank today by bike. Am seeing a few coworkers riding bikes now. Wahoo!

[fireready]

There are not many places to eat by our factory so people either drive to the food area (1 mile) or they just have it delivered.  I wish they knew how much they could save per year by making lunches and riding bikes! But people rarely want to do things that are hard and have long term affects.  People live for right now, what makes them happy today.

[Cassie]

Depending on where you live bike riding can be very dangerous. I always enjoyed trail riding but spending my career working with people with disabilities I have seen too many head injuries from biking accidents. Locally people don’t seem to pay attention even though we have many designated bike lanes because of the fed provided money. Many cars seem to think it’s an extra lane for them. I especially cringe when I see parents hauling a child behind them. Definitely not worth the risk.

[GuitarStv]

Depending on where you live bike riding can be very dangerous. I always enjoyed trail riding but spending my career working with people with disabilities I have seen too many head injuries from biking accidents. Locally people don’t seem to pay attention even though we have many designated bike lanes because of the fed provided money. Many cars seem to think it’s an extra lane for them. I especially cringe when I see parents hauling a child behind them. Definitely not worth the risk.

There are certainly some areas where it's not safe to ride, but there are many areas that seem dangerous but are actually OK if you figure out proper routes and learn safe vehicular cycling practices.  I ride through some pretty busy areas of Toronto, usually without cycling infrastructure of any kind.  One of the biggest contributors to cycling safety is the number of people riding bicycles in a given area.  The more people who are riding, the better acquainted drivers become with cyclists.

[fireready]

Depending on where you live bike riding can be very dangerous. I always enjoyed trail riding but spending my career working with people with disabilities I have seen too many head injuries from biking accidents. Locally people don’t seem to pay attention even though we have many designated bike lanes because of the fed provided money. Many cars seem to think it’s an extra lane for them. I especially cringe when I see parents hauling a child behind them. Definitely not worth the risk.

I've been riding to work for over 20 years and yes you need to be aware of your surroundings and assume no car ever sees you.  Same with riding motorcycle (which I did for years).  Flashing lights, bright colors and a head on a swivel goes a long ways.  Better for the environment, better for your health and better for your wallet.  The more people that ride, the safer it will become.

[Freedomin5]

Depending on where you live bike riding can be very dangerous. I always enjoyed trail riding but spending my career working with people with disabilities I have seen too many head injuries from biking accidents. Locally people don’t seem to pay attention even though we have many designated bike lanes because of the fed provided money. Many cars seem to think it’s an extra lane for them. I especially cringe when I see parents hauling a child behind them. Definitely not worth the risk.

There are certainly some areas where it's not safe to ride, but there are many areas that seem dangerous but are actually OK if you figure out proper routes and learn safe vehicular cycling practices.  I ride through some pretty busy areas of Toronto, usually without cycling infrastructure of any kind.  One of the biggest contributors to cycling safety is the number of people riding bicycles in a given area.  The more people who are riding, the better acquainted drivers become with cyclists.

This is true. The drivers in Shanghai are nuts, but I was able to safely ride (and cross a 16-lane intersection) because there were so many scooters and bikes also on the road at the same time. I just buried myself in the crowd and used my bell liberally.

[Just Joe]

Depending on where you live bike riding can be very dangerous. I always enjoyed trail riding but spending my career working with people with disabilities I have seen too many head injuries from biking accidents. Locally people don’t seem to pay attention even though we have many designated bike lanes because of the fed provided money. Many cars seem to think it’s an extra lane for them. I especially cringe when I see parents hauling a child behind them. Definitely not worth the risk.

There are certainly some areas where it's not safe to ride, but there are many areas that seem dangerous but are actually OK if you figure out proper routes and learn safe vehicular cycling practices.  I ride through some pretty busy areas of Toronto, usually without cycling infrastructure of any kind.  One of the biggest contributors to cycling safety is the number of people riding bicycles in a given area.  The more people who are riding, the better acquainted drivers become with cyclists.

Almost all of my local direct routes are dangerous but I've spent time to find parallel routes that make use of quiet neighborhood streets, our lone bike path, country lanes, and sometimes parking lots. For example I cut through a quiet apartment complex to connect to the grocery store near my job. Safer than climbing the hill out of the grocery store directly which is steep and I'm slow.

[fireready]

Agreed with what Just Joe mentioned.  I take routes that are a bit longer but go through suburbs and use walking/biking paths instead of riding on the main road.  Even get to ride through a nice park with a pond and golf course area. 

[Askel]

- We have a large garden for veggies and reuse all of our grey water from our washing machine to water the garden all summer.  With 5 people in the house, we unfortunately do more laundry than I would like, but at least we reuse the water.

Whoa, this sounds cool. Can you tell us more about your setup to reuse the wash water? Any special restrictions on detergent and the like? 

Due to a well, a large chunk of property, and a slightly insane septic system- watering the garden and doing laundry requires pumping a lot of water all over the place at our house. Reducing the number of trips that water takes might save us some.   

[ChpBstrd]

Well done @fireready !

I don't mean to pry but I'm curious how this translates to household earning, household spending, and if your are in a LCOL, MCOL, or HCOL location.

[fireready]

- We have a large garden for veggies and reuse all of our grey water from our washing machine to water the garden all summer.  With 5 people in the house, we unfortunately do more laundry than I would like, but at least we reuse the water.

Whoa, this sounds cool. Can you tell us more about your setup to reuse the wash water? Any special restrictions on detergent and the like? 

Due to a well, a large chunk of property, and a slightly insane septic system- watering the garden and doing laundry requires pumping a lot of water all over the place at our house. Reducing the number of trips that water takes might save us some.

Here is a brief overview:
Note, we are in an unincorporated county and your local regulations may be different for grey water/ rain water systems.
Our laundry room is on the opposite side of the house form our garden so we have the washer pump out water through the window in the room to a 35 gallon plastic trash can.  From there, a sump pump pumps the water up to the gutter in the back of the house which takes it to the garden side of the house.
It is then collected in our 180 gallon rain water tank that runs off that gutter system.  To disperse the water, we have a 12V RV sink pump hooked up to an old deep cycle battery from our campervan.  That way we can water the garden just like it is hooked up to the city water.  A small 10W solar panel charges the battery.  Free water, free power to the pump.
With grey water you do not want to store it or it starts to smell so we try and empty it daily.  With rain water, we store that longer.  We only use biodegradable soap and no bleach when using the system.  A bonus is the soap in the water keeps afids and other bugs off of the leaves of the veggies!
We have 7 4'x10' raised garden beds running off of this system. 

[fireready]

Well done @fireready !

I don't mean to pry but I'm curious how this translates to household earning, household spending, and if your are in a LCOL, MCOL, or HCOL location.

No problem!
We have a thread on case studies that goes into more details but here is a general:
My income - $180k per year (pre tax)
Wife - 10K
We spend around $35K per year living in NW Oregon so HCOL.  Our current savings rate is 73% and we plan on FIRE'ing in 2.5 years (or so)

[Newday]

Here is a brief overview:
Note, we are in an unincorporated county and your local regulations may be different for grey water/ rain water systems.
Our laundry room is on the opposite side of the house form our garden so we have the washer pump out water through the window in the room to a 35 gallon plastic trash can.  From there, a sump pump pumps the water up to the gutter in the back of the house which takes it to the garden side of the house.
It is then collected in our 180 gallon rain water tank that runs off that gutter system.  To disperse the water, we have a 12V RV sink pump hooked up to an old deep cycle battery from our campervan.  That way we can water the garden just like it is hooked up to the city water.  A small 10W solar panel charges the battery.  Free water, free power to the pump.
With grey water you do not want to store it or it starts to smell so we try and empty it daily.  With rain water, we store that longer.  We only use biodegradable soap and no bleach when using the system.  A bonus is the soap in the water keeps afids and other bugs off of the leaves of the veggies!
We have 7 4'x10' raised garden beds running off of this system.

Very impressive!!!

[APowers]

I've seen it said "you can't frugal your way to FIRE"....but by living like Fireready, you can. That's basically how I did it. Great job Fireready!

[lifeandlimb]

Could you tell us what you make for lunch? Sometimes we have a hard time planning lunches that feel different from the dinners we've cooked, and yet also will stay good in the fridge through the week.

[fireready]

I've seen it said "you can't frugal your way to FIRE"....but by living like Fireready, you can. That's basically how I did it. Great job Fireready!

Thanks
Frugality is a great mindset but more importantly, it is a way of trying to reduce your impact on the planet.  Not buying or buying used reduces the need for companies to make more.  And as a bonus, it helps us grow our Stache!
Having a higher income the past 7-8 years has helped us accelerate our FIRE date but was not the reason for it.  We did not always make this amount of money.  YEARS of struggles and learning and growing.

[fireready]

I've seen it said "you can't frugal your way to FIRE"....but by living like Fireready, you can. That's basically how I did it. Great job Fireready!

We do not eat much meat so it is usually something that combines these ingredients:
One of: Brown rice/ quinoa / ramen noodles /
Veggies: Broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, mushrooms, peas, carrots, corn, etc.  One or more of these depending on the type of meals
Chicken or tofu possibly.  Sometimes the weekly lunches are vegetarian.
If it is a stir fry type, we use Liquid Amino's instead of soy sauce as it is lower sodium.  Toss some of that in there with sesame oil.
If it is a mexican type dish, we make some taco style seasoning with cumin, salt, garlic, cayenne, etc.

This week is a cold salad with:
Quiona, tofu, olives, mushrooms, tomatoes, butter beans, spinach, banana peppers, with balsamic vinegar and liquid aminos.  So good and a big bowl is less that 400 calories.

Sometimes it is leftovers from dinner.  My wife makes AMAZING soups and pumpkin soup/ tortilla soup/ chili/ and chowder season is fast approaching!!

If I am feeling particularly lazy on a Sunday, it may be a peanut butter sandwich with a salad for Monday! :)  Then I figure it out on Monday night.  The answer is never to go out and buy lunch though. 
My wallet and waistline are thankful for that.

[APowers]

I've seen it said "you can't frugal your way to FIRE"....but by living like Fireready, you can. That's basically how I did it. Great job Fireready!

Thanks
Frugality is a great mindset but more importantly, it is a way of trying to reduce your impact on the planet.  Not buying or buying used reduces the need for companies to make more.  And as a bonus, it helps us grow our Stache!
Having a higher income the past 7-8 years has helped us accelerate our FIRE date but was not the reason for it.  We did not always make this amount of money.  YEARS of struggles and learning and growing.

I think this is one of my favourite realizations about frugality. All the things I do as a frugal person-- buying used, repurposing instead of buying new things, maximizing fuel economy, everything-- are also the most ecologically sound course of action. I'm not particularly a tree-hugger hippie type, but I believe we as humans are obligated to be good stewards of the resources we have, so the massive wastefulness I see normalized in our consumer culture just flies in the face of that responsibility, and it bothers me.

[Askel]

Here is a brief overview:
Note, we are in an unincorporated county and your local regulations may be different for grey water/ rain water systems.
Our laundry room is on the opposite side of the house form our garden so we have the washer pump out water through the window in the room to a 35 gallon plastic trash can.  From there, a sump pump pumps the water up to the gutter in the back of the house which takes it to the garden side of the house.
It is then collected in our 180 gallon rain water tank that runs off that gutter system.  To disperse the water, we have a 12V RV sink pump hooked up to an old deep cycle battery from our campervan.  That way we can water the garden just like it is hooked up to the city water.  A small 10W solar panel charges the battery.  Free water, free power to the pump.
With grey water you do not want to store it or it starts to smell so we try and empty it daily.  With rain water, we store that longer.  We only use biodegradable soap and no bleach when using the system.  A bonus is the soap in the water keeps afids and other bugs off of the leaves of the veggies!
We have 7 4'x10' raised garden beds running off of this system.

Awesome, thanks! I like the sump pump idea, can incorporate that into our own system.   

[lifeandlimb]

I've seen it said "you can't frugal your way to FIRE"....but by living like Fireready, you can. That's basically how I did it. Great job Fireready!

We do not eat much meat so it is usually something that combines these ingredients:
One of: Brown rice/ quinoa / ramen noodles /
Veggies: Broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, mushrooms, peas, carrots, corn, etc.  One or more of these depending on the type of meals
Chicken or tofu possibly.  Sometimes the weekly lunches are vegetarian.
If it is a stir fry type, we use Liquid Amino's instead of soy sauce as it is lower sodium.  Toss some of that in there with sesame oil.
If it is a mexican type dish, we make some taco style seasoning with cumin, salt, garlic, cayenne, etc.

This week is a cold salad with:
Quiona, tofu, olives, mushrooms, tomatoes, butter beans, spinach, banana peppers, with balsamic vinegar and liquid aminos.  So good and a big bowl is less that 400 calories.

Sometimes it is leftovers from dinner.  My wife makes AMAZING soups and pumpkin soup/ tortilla soup/ chili/ and chowder season is fast approaching!!

If I am feeling particularly lazy on a Sunday, it may be a peanut butter sandwich with a salad for Monday! :)  Then I figure it out on Monday night.  The answer is never to go out and buy lunch though. 
My wallet and waistline are thankful for that.

Thanks! Sounds healthy.

[Jack0Life]

Well done @fireready !

I don't mean to pry but I'm curious how this translates to household earning, household spending, and if your are in a LCOL, MCOL, or HCOL location.

No problem!
We have a thread on case studies that goes into more details but here is a general:
My income - $180k per year (pre tax)
Wife - 10K
We spend around $35K per year living in NW Oregon so HCOL.  Our current savings rate is 73% and we plan on FIRE'ing in 2.5 years (or so)

I have to applaud you for living on so little based on how much you make.
Are you guys trying to FIRE with 2 millions ?
It's just me and the wife and we are over 1.5 and I swore 5 yrs ago that would have FIRE with that much but yet we still keep on going. Don't know why. Wife just got back to the work force and she keeps telling to hit $2 millions before we FIRE.

[fireready]

Well done @fireready !

I don't mean to pry but I'm curious how this translates to household earning, household spending, and if your are in a LCOL, MCOL, or HCOL location.

No problem!
We have a thread on case studies that goes into more details but here is a general:
My income - $180k per year (pre tax)
Wife - 10K
We spend around $35K per year living in NW Oregon so HCOL.  Our current savings rate is 73% and we plan on FIRE'ing in 2.5 years (or so)

I have to applaud you for living on so little based on how much you make.
Are you guys trying to FIRE with 2 millions ?
It's just me and the wife and we are over 1.5 and I swore 5 yrs ago that would have FIRE with that much but yet we still keep on going. Don't know why. Wife just got back to the work force and she keeps telling to hit $2 millions before we FIRE.

No the overall number isn't hugely important to us right now.  We are just not in a position where we feel we can take full advantage of our retirement goals, mainly traveling full time in our van.  Our youngest kids just started college and are living at home and still need some financial (and parental) help at times and we want to get them off on the right foot. 
But we should be around $.17M within our target date, not including our house equity (which we do not usually include in our calculations)