Author Topic: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house  (Read 1554 times)

chemistk

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WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« on: June 28, 2021, 02:44:46 PM »
I have a conundrum that's really been eating at me these last two weeks -

We are set to close on a house on July 23. We went under contract on this house at the beginning of this month, which is a really protracted time in this market. I would have liked to have an earlier closing date, but we'll be away out of state for nearly 3 weeks and there was no realistic opportunity for my wife and I to be here earlier in the month to get the keys. I don't see anything that's going to delay our closing and the house is currently unoccupied - the seller is selling his mom's place through POA, so there's nothing that the sellers need to do between now and closing (power's on, and yard care has been taken care of).

Our lease is also on a bimonthly renewal, and our new place is less than 5 minutes' drive from our current place.

This is a pretty standard scenario, except...

The property management group our landlord uses stipulates that we give 60 days' notice. I called and asked nicely and they said they do not make exceptions unless an exception was written that way in the initial lease. Okay, fine. My follow-up question was whether they would list and start showing the place immediately after our giving notice, to which they also said 'absolutely'.

So this puts us in a place I really don't want to be. The way I see it we have two options:

1) Give notice this week, giving us roughly 5 weeks to do any work & move into the new place. Allows us to avoid paying too much extra rent. Here's the rub - we're going to be gone for close to 3 weeks and our vacation is not considered an event for which they would delay showings. I was also told (verbally, I want this in writing too) that if we do give notice, we will be required to keep the house at a comfortable temperature (she seemed to indicate 74-75ish, we have a dumb thermostat), as well as keep power to the appliances & rooms. I did get her to agree that we will be allowed to have the water off. We are also being asked to do a semi-deep clean of the place to have it in presentable condition before we go.

The other wrinkle to this is that, if something happened with the house, the only way we could re-secure our current place is if another person hasn't signed a lease. Once a new tenant is lined up, our safety net is gone if the purchase on the new place goes sideways.

2) Wait until we have the keys in hand before giving notice. This would give us more time to move/clean/update but we'd be on the hook for an extra $1500 in rent in addition to paying for the utilities on both places in the hottest month of the year.

I was this close today to sending over the notice, but I just can't shake the fact that we'd have strangers in the house and no way to see if people have taken anything, will have to pay to keep the house air conditioned and the lights on (normally, I turn off the breakers to rooms, and we keep the AC closer to 80), and we'd almost certainly lose this place as a safety net.

But on the other hand, I'd hate to have to pay for an extra months' rent that we don't need, as well as the utilities that we won't need. Perhaps I can talk to them again, but the way she made it seem, if we were to notify them we'd vacated the house a month early they'd hold us in violation of our lease (our lease, as it's written, says that we owe an additional months' rent if we 'abandon' the property before our set move-out date).

So a long-winded build up to - should we give notice this week and just eat the utility bills/not worry about our new home purchase going sideways, or should we play it 'safe' and just eat the extra $1700 for another months' rent (leaving us with that much less for work on the new place).


Sandi_k

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2021, 06:41:38 PM »
Play it safe. Don't give notice yet.

You won't owe a mortgage payment for August, so just see that extra rent as something that allows you peace of mind for the three weeks you are out of town. I wouldn't want the stress of prepping the apartment before departure, AND worrying that someone left a door unlocked, or cranked up the AC as they were touring on your dime.

FI is about doing what gives you peace, not squeezing every nickel out of every circumstance.

iluvzbeach

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2021, 07:05:30 PM »
Yes, I agree with the above response. Don’t give notice until you’ve closed. It may cost more, but $1,700 is a small price to pay for the added peace of mind and reduced stress. In your notice, you could always let the the PM know you can make the unit available earlier than 60 days, in case they find an interested party who needs an earlier move date.

SunnyDays

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2021, 07:12:00 PM »
$1700 is a small price to pay for lack of worry and ease of moving.  Keep the rental until you’re ready to move.

Dicey

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2021, 10:58:03 PM »
Agree, don't allow them access to your home while you're on vacation. Also, make a phone call. 30 days is the amount of notice required in my state, which I believe is fairly typical. Even if it's stipulated otherwise in the lease, it may not be legal. Worth checking on.

Mr. Green

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2021, 12:51:07 AM »
So what's the worst case damage on doubling up places? $1,500 rent plus utilities, so $2,000 maybe? So to avoid paying two grand you're going to leave yourself open to the possibility that the home sale doesn't close and your life becomes a living hell because you have to move? Fuck that. I mean, I hear you. No one wants to waste two thousand dollars but the house not closing and being forced to move with nothing lined up sounds like one of the most stressful, (temporarily) life ruining experiences I can think of.

Erma

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2021, 04:18:47 AM »
I agree too. It is extremely stressful if you don't know that you can move in your house. I speak from personal experience. In the end it worke out but previous owner of the house moved out while we were arriving there to move in.

chemistk

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2021, 05:53:38 AM »
Appreciate the replies - my gut tells me that we should wait, even if that means less cash in the near term that can go toward renovations. I hate to see that money go to paying rent and utilities on a place that we don't need to occupy but it does make it easier to frame it as a living expense/roof over our heads rather than a loss of cash for the new place.

Agree, don't allow them access to your home while you're on vacation.

This was the other big thing for me. We had tentative plans to leave our valuables with family, and my wife thought I was crazy for thinking that someone would want to come back and steal stuff, but just in the off chance that someone touring the place noticed we'd be out and that there's no security system...I'd hate to have to deal with that when we returned.

Also, make a phone call. 30 days is the amount of notice required in my state, which I believe is fairly typical. Even if it's stipulated otherwise in the lease, it may not be legal. Worth checking on.

I have to do more digging on this. They stipulate 2 months' notice with the justification being that our lease would auto-renew if we gave them any less notice. I just don't see how that's an effective strategy for them...does that nudge occupancy rates higher for their clients? I'd imagine that if I were in their shoes and knew that a tenant wanted to vacate, I'd try and do everything to see them away especially since our rent is probably about 20% below the true market value for the place.

According to Google reviews, this is one of the biggest issues this PMG has - they're easily the biggest one in the region and have many hundreds of units that they manage - but when it comes to interpreting the lease, they are incredibly inflexible.

I can guarantee that within 72 hours of it being active, it's going to have dozens of prospective tenants. I think they could have it rented within a week of our posting notice, and likely for 20% more than we pay now. I think I'm going to try and sell that to them - we're giving our 60 days' notice, but we'd also agree to a shorter term in exchange for not paying rent on a place we no longer intend to occupy.




uniwelder

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2021, 06:30:18 AM »
Also, make a phone call. 30 days is the amount of notice required in my state, which I believe is fairly typical. Even if it's stipulated otherwise in the lease, it may not be legal. Worth checking on.
I can guarantee that within 72 hours of it being active, it's going to have dozens of prospective tenants. I think they could have it rented within a week of our posting notice, and likely for 20% more than we pay now. I think I'm going to try and sell that to them - we're giving our 60 days' notice, but we'd also agree to a shorter term in exchange for not paying rent on a place we no longer intend to occupy.

In addition to Dicey's comment about state laws, in my state, Virginia, if you break a lease early, the landlord can only charge you rent for the time the property is unoccupied and they are required to actively seek a new tenant.  If they find a new tenant quickly, you'd be off the hook.  I assume you pay rent once per month?  Is your new house close enough that you can check back in on your old place before paying the 2nd month's rent to see if anyone is living there?  Or do you have any neighbors that will keep tabs on activity and new people moving in?

...the way she made it seem, if we were to notify them we'd vacated the house a month early they'd hold us in violation of our lease (our lease, as it's written, says that we owe an additional months' rent if we 'abandon' the property before our set move-out date).

Again about state laws, you should check if its legal for them to do this.

former player

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2021, 06:30:59 AM »
Does your lease allow you to AirBnB for the weeks you won't need it?

Metalcat

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2021, 06:44:27 AM »
Definitely wait.

Consider it part of your moving/closing costs and don't think about it again.

Omy

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2021, 06:50:54 AM »
Having extra time to move is worth A LOT. Give yourself the gift of having more time to clean out the old place and more time to clean, prep, and organize the new place. You can move stuff at your leisure and stay much more organized in the process. You have a lot more time to toss or donate accumulated crap instead of frantically throwing it in a box and ignoring it for the next 10 years. You can paint/renovate the new place and not breathe fumes and dust because you can sleep in your old place. We did this on our previous move and it was awesome.

By doing this we saved money and a lot of peace of mind. We were able to do a lot more ourselves instead of hiring it out because we had more time. We could clean/renovate both houses ourselves instead of contracting it out. We moved using a much smaller truck (just for the big items) and methodically packed and moved a couple of boxes a day ourselves which kept us much more organized. We ate much less fast food and carry out because we kept our old kitchen functioning until the end. It was so nice being able to escape the chaos of the new place while it was being fixed up...and so nice to move into a perfectly organized new place on our move in day.

Metalcat

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2021, 07:05:41 AM »
Having extra time to move is worth A LOT. Give yourself the gift of having more time to clean out the old place and more time to clean, prep, and organize the new place. You can move stuff at your leisure and stay much more organized in the process. You have a lot more time to toss or donate accumulated crap instead of frantically throwing it in a box and ignoring it for the next 10 years. You can paint/renovate the new place and not breathe fumes and dust because you can sleep in your old place. We did this on our previous move and it was awesome.

By doing this we saved money and a lot of peace of mind. We were able to do a lot more ourselves instead of hiring it out because we had more time. We could clean/renovate both houses ourselves instead of contracting it out. We moved using a much smaller truck (just for the big items) and methodically packed and moved a couple of boxes a day ourselves which kept us much more organized. We ate much less fast food and carry out because we kept our old kitchen functioning until the end. It was so nice being able to escape the chaos of the new place while it was being fixed up...and so nice to move into a perfectly organized new place on our move in day.

So this.

We carried two places for 4 months, not intentionally, but man it was nice. I really appreciated being able to take my time getting the new place ready. Cleaning, painting, and repairs can take forever. Not being rushed was wonderful.

We also moved nearby, so over that time we were able to shuttle a lot of things over by car, which saved us a lot of hassle with moving.

Villanelle

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2021, 08:07:15 AM »
You aren't abandoning the property simply by moving out, are you?  I'd try to find a legal definition of "abandon".  If you go visit twice a month, does that count?  If you continue to care for the lawn/outdoor spaces, is that sufficient?  Do you need to keep it climate controlled.  (As a side not, unless specified in your lease, I don't think they could retire you to have it at 74* for showings.  I don't even set my thermostat that low when I live in it.  It's at 77 during the day or if Im feeling like spoiling myself, 76.  They can tell you to do 74*, but I doubt it's enforcable unless in the lease.)

Leave a patio chair in the living room and a bowl in the kitchen, keep electric and water (and the thermostat set to 82*), and stop by once a week or every other weeks.  Sweep the front doorstep occasionally and don't let plantings get too overgrown.  All that = not abandoned, as far as I would be concerned and unless the law seems to indicate differently. 

Freedomin5

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2021, 08:11:10 AM »
I see the $1700 as insurance, and I agree that it’s a small price to pay to ensure you don’t end up homeless.

JLee

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2021, 08:14:59 AM »
Closings can get postponed, last minute things can happen - I would absolutely keep the overlap.

chemistk

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2021, 08:32:53 AM »
Also, make a phone call. 30 days is the amount of notice required in my state, which I believe is fairly typical. Even if it's stipulated otherwise in the lease, it may not be legal. Worth checking on.
I can guarantee that within 72 hours of it being active, it's going to have dozens of prospective tenants. I think they could have it rented within a week of our posting notice, and likely for 20% more than we pay now. I think I'm going to try and sell that to them - we're giving our 60 days' notice, but we'd also agree to a shorter term in exchange for not paying rent on a place we no longer intend to occupy.

In addition to Dicey's comment about state laws, in my state, Virginia, if you break a lease early, the landlord can only charge you rent for the time the property is unoccupied and they are required to actively seek a new tenant.  If they find a new tenant quickly, you'd be off the hook.  I assume you pay rent once per month?  Is your new house close enough that you can check back in on your old place before paying the 2nd month's rent to see if anyone is living there?  Or do you have any neighbors that will keep tabs on activity and new people moving in?

...the way she made it seem, if we were to notify them we'd vacated the house a month early they'd hold us in violation of our lease (our lease, as it's written, says that we owe an additional months' rent if we 'abandon' the property before our set move-out date).

Again about state laws, you should check if its legal for them to do this.

Did some digging, and PA is one of only three states (CT & UT are the others) that does not have any specific law outlining how much notice a tenant must give to terminate a month-to-month lease. So, it's completely legal for them to require 60 days' notice and to expect that we would pay rent on those 60 days as well.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/state-rules-on-notice-required-to-change-or-terminate-a-month-to-month-tenancy.html

To your first point - our new place is incredibly close to the current place, so we could check on it.

However re-reading our lease, we are responsible for all utilities until the "agreed upon date of termination" which to me says the 60th day after giving notice. There is also a specific call-out in the addenda that no alterations may be made to the terms of the lease unless specified in writing by the landlord (makes sense). Further, they also have a whole special paragraph about abandonment of the property and what they consider "abandoned" and although the language is intentionally vague, there's definitely an interpretation in that clause that they would consider the property abandoned if it is found that we have ceased to occupy the property for a length of time prior to the termination of the lease. If they label the property abandoned: 1) they take immediate possession, 2) we are responsible for all agreed upon lease payments, and 3) we forfeit some or all of security deposit.

I apologize to all the landlords in here, but shit I really hate renting. I get all this is to protect the landlord against deadbeat tenants but I hate being tethered to a property with mildly onerous rules about what i must do to continue to be allowed to live there. 



chemistk

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2021, 08:40:34 AM »
You aren't abandoning the property simply by moving out, are you?  I'd try to find a legal definition of "abandon".  If you go visit twice a month, does that count?  If you continue to care for the lawn/outdoor spaces, is that sufficient?  Do you need to keep it climate controlled.  (As a side not, unless specified in your lease, I don't think they could retire you to have it at 74* for showings.  I don't even set my thermostat that low when I live in it.  It's at 77 during the day or if Im feeling like spoiling myself, 76.  They can tell you to do 74*, but I doubt it's enforcable unless in the lease.)

Leave a patio chair in the living room and a bowl in the kitchen, keep electric and water (and the thermostat set to 82*), and stop by once a week or every other weeks.  Sweep the front doorstep occasionally and don't let plantings get too overgrown.  All that = not abandoned, as far as I would be concerned and unless the law seems to indicate differently.

I think we would be if we full-stop moved into the new place before our 60 days' notice is up. I'm sure they probably won't care and I do feel like I'm reading too much into this specific part of the lease. We've been stellar tenants and have put up with a lot of shit with this place, so I think if we just kept the utilities going and mowed the lawn they'd let everything slide.

There's no way we can keep the place above 75 in the summer anyway if we want it habitable. It's a 3-story townhouse with a walkout basement where the entire back side faces South, so it's unrealistically hot in the summer. Worse, we're kind of nestled in a valley with a creek and some patches of woods, so the humidity is higher than the surrounding area. Above 75 at the thermostat, some of the doors in the house can't close because of the humidity, because when the thermostat reads '75', it's about 83 on the top floor- whomever built this townhouse community was a shitty developer.

chemistk

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2021, 08:44:14 AM »
I appreciate the perspective of the community - we're just going to give the 60 days' when we have the keys to the new place, and look at it as an opportunity to get some additional work done to the new house.

I'm going to try and negotiate a shorter period (maybe 45 days) with them since they and I know it's a desirable location, but not go into that with any expectations.

Omy

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2021, 08:48:35 AM »
"I apologize to all the landlords in here, but shit I really hate renting. I get all this is to protect the landlord against deadbeat tenants but I hate being tethered to a property with mildly onerous rules about what i must do to continue to be allowed to live there."

That depends on the jurisdiction. In my county, the laws and lease are heavily pro-tenant. I had a tenant who smoked and had pets (both violations of the lease), and my hands were tied as to what I could do to get them out and to how much I could take from the security deposit to restore my rental.

chemistk

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2021, 09:38:40 AM »
"I apologize to all the landlords in here, but shit I really hate renting. I get all this is to protect the landlord against deadbeat tenants but I hate being tethered to a property with mildly onerous rules about what i must do to continue to be allowed to live there."

That depends on the jurisdiction. In my county, the laws and lease are heavily pro-tenant. I had a tenant who smoked and had pets (both violations of the lease), and my hands were tied as to what I could do to get them out and to how much I could take from the security deposit to restore my rental.

Agreed. We generally haven't had any issues, and there are a lot of communities that this PMG has units in where there are a lot of deadbeats. At the risk of dredging up the classic "renting vs owning" debate, renting just hasn't really ever been for us and I'm going to be glad to be out of a rental even if my out of pocket costs are higher.

Dicey

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2021, 10:36:51 AM »
"I apologize to all the landlords in here, but shit I really hate renting. I get all this is to protect the landlord against deadbeat tenants but I hate being tethered to a property with mildly onerous rules about what i must do to continue to be allowed to live there."

That depends on the jurisdiction. In my county, the laws and lease are heavily pro-tenant. I had a tenant who smoked and had pets (both violations of the lease), and my hands were tied as to what I could do to get them out and to how much I could take from the security deposit to restore my rental.

Agreed. We generally haven't had any issues, and there are a lot of communities that this PMG has units in where there are a lot of deadbeats. At the risk of dredging up the classic "renting vs owning" debate, renting just hasn't really ever been for us and I'm going to be glad to be out of a rental even if my out of pocket costs are higher.
Ha, I'm a LL and I would never throw that shit on my tenants. I'm also in a tenant friendly state, so I wouldn't get away with it anyway, even if I was so inclined. That's also why I have no desire to ever live in a rental property. I want to do what I want, when I want.

OP, be sure to take scads of pictures. These sound like people who enjoy keeping tenant's deposits.

Captain FIRE

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2021, 11:10:23 AM »
Generally when a contract is broken (breached), there is an obligation to try to "cover" which means the landlord would need to due diligence in trying to get it rented.  If they rent it out sooner, yes, they would need to pay you back for the money you've paid, however...they can deduct their costs in trying to cover.  Betcha they'd deduct for costs of an ad, time spent showing, etc.

In addition to photos that Dicey suggested, you might ask them to do a walk through when you hand over the keys.  At the end ask if there are any issues.  If not, ask them to sign a short statement agreeing you returned the keys on X date and they agree it was in good condition (there were no issues).

chemistk

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Re: WWYD - Notice to vacate rental before closing on new house
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2021, 12:22:05 PM »
On the topic of our deposit, I kind have chalked that up to a loss.

It's an odd situation that we have - the place flooded in 2016 during our first year of renting because of an old (plastic, but not PB) fitting between the toilet tank and its feed line valve (turns out, this exact same failure has occurred at 3 other townhomes in the development). It gushed water for over 8 days while we were on vacation, water usage was in the 10's of thousands of gallons.  Except ~2/3 of the top floor, every inch of drywall, cabinetry, and flooring was replaced so to them, any single point of damage that is present will be known to have been caused by us.

My oldest put his head through the drywall a couple years ago. There's pen, permanent marker, dents, chips, scratches, and dings on various surfaces that are the inevitability of having young kids in a house. I dropped a hot charcoal on the composite deck and caused a nice melted spot. Some of the miniblinds are missing vanes.

We are going to address some of these things, but there's some above-average wear and tear that's happened. We keep the place clean but kids.....well there's only so much that can be done.

If we get half the deposit back, I'd be thrilled. We're actually on good terms with the PMG because of the whole flood thing (we lost nearly everything, and some of the staff expressed sincere remorse, at least on a personal level), but they're still a business with around 2.2/5 stars across various review platforms.