Author Topic: Will home insurance become so uneconomical/awful it makes sense to self-insure?  (Read 4203 times)

ChpBstrd

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We all have stories of people we know who had trouble getting insurance companies to pay out for damages but lately I've also been hearing a lot about systematic insurance company behaviors to pay claimants less than they're owed, contract changes requiring arbitration and conflicting water/wind damage clauses designed to grind the claims process to a halt, and industry-sponsored legislation that strip the legal rights from consumers or make it impossible to sue.

The YT channel Building Integrity summarizes these issues in a Florida context:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5xPijaGYWA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SetRwR_or0

Meanwhile, even as the odds of getting a fair payout for damage seem to be declining, the cost of homeowners' insurance is increasing at double-digit rates per year, far out-pacing any argument about inflation, rising fraud, or particular disasters. 

Of course, most homeowners and landlords have no choice but to pay whatever the insurance companies quote them. They are not wealthy enough to self-insure and they have mortgages which require the coverage. Yet Mustachian homeowners or small LL's with modest-sized properties can conceivably think about paying off their mortgages and self-insuring. MMM reported he was doing this years ago. For us, there will be some threshold at which we decide the insurance market isn't worth it, and it may be time to start evaluating that threshold.

In addition, all the people I hear about who are getting 6%-7% mortgages are prioritizing paying down those mortgages. If rates never go back down in a significant way, we might see a lot more people directing a firehose of cash at paying off their houses. If many of them pay off their mortgages early, insurance will become optional.

Here are some specific thoughts I've had about the consequences and choices we may need to make if insurance becomes "a scam" with low odds of getting a fair payout and high annual premiums:

1) We can reduce our exposure to rising insurance costs by owning smaller, cheaper houses with mortgages small enough to kill in a few years if necessary.

2) We can reduce our risk of going without insurance by building houses that are less fragile. E.g. tougher roofing materials, better resistance to high winds, termite-proof and waterproof materials, fire-resistant design, and design features that make it cheap and easy to DIY swap out components like windows. Such construction techniques are common in other parts of the world, but Americans tend to buy stick houses with fragile asphalt shingles because that delivers a cheap price and because insurance has been affordable in the past. Unaffordable insurance tilts the decision in favor of spending extra to have a tile roof, concrete construction, better materials, etc. Usually this would require we custom-build.

3) We can also reduce our risk of going without insurance by not living in areas prone to hurricanes, wildfires, floods, or earthquakes.

4) A decision about paying off one's mortgage needs to factor in the option value of self-insuring.
E.g. a 5% mortgage might seem good enough to keep forever, but if you are a millionaire living in a house with $200k net replacement cost* and $5k per year insurance premiums and you don't believe they'd actually pay you if you had a claim, then it's worth considering if the actual cost of your mortgage is a lot more than the interest rate. This is sorta like the people who are pleased with their low mortgage rate, but are paying PMI! No, the actual amount you pay to have that loan is through the roof and it's because of insurance!

5) If homeowners' insurance is becoming an uneconomical, duopolistic racket, then the overall price of homes is too high. I.e. if we violate the assumption that insurance expenses will continue to be affordable, then the true cost of home ownership will be higher than people currently expect. The result per supply and demand theory should be a "deadweight loss" like taxes which should reduce the price of the item. Whether prices actually change probably involves a lot more factors, but unaffordable insurance *should* be a factor reducing prices.

6) The way we understand sequence of returns risk (SORR) for self-insured individuals needs to separate and calculate the risk of an adverse market from the risk of an uninsured six-figure loss to the value of their RE. That is to say, we need to think about if we can afford to stay uninsured after a market SORR event, and we need to think about whether we can stay FIRE'd after a... uninsured house fire. Then we need to consider what happens if both occurred at the same time. Bonus!... one does not get to escape this calculation by staying insured, because one cannot count on insurance to provide a fair payout when disaster strikes. So the insured Mustachian needs to consider what happens when insurance refuses to cover the true cost of damages or they have to lawyer up (per the 2nd video, a new Florida law makes lawyer feeds un-recoverable in most cases when suing your insurance company). Flipside!... Self-insuring might improve portfolio resilience to SORR events because (a) there is no chance of the insurance company ripping you off for a net-worth-reducing five or six-figure loss, (b) annual expenses and thus WR's are lower and immune to the risk of premium hikes, (c) there is the option to spend the money in one's self-insurance account and to pay for insurance someday in the future - an option which might float a retiree through a SORR event, and (d) the self-insurance portfolio could in some scenarios grow faster than the cost of home replacement grows, thereby spinning off cash**.

7) An alternative response to high insurance costs and low insurance value would be to take the opposite approach as described in #2 and  build disposable houses instead of more durable houses. E.g. If you're going to live in Florida or California, why not buy a $75k mobile home for cash, leave it uninsured, and if it gets destroyed just walk away and buy another. The insurance savings alone would cover replacement if you can go maybe 10 years between disasters, and you don't have as much money at risk as you would with a site-built home. Owning the lot under the mobile home would reduce one's housing expenses to just taxes, utilities, and occasional home replacement. Your main risk would be losing mobile homes at a faster pace than expected (e.g. back-to-back hurricanes, fires, or floods), in which case repairing a durable site-built home might have been more economical in hindsight. Still, it's hard to argue risk when you have so much less money tied up in a disposable home, and your self-insurance portfolio only needs to be five figures. Really the only option that doesn't work in any scenario is to continue to site-build still-expensive fragile homes.

8) Returns on a self-insurance account could be attractive and inflation-resistant if you calculate it correctly. A self-insuring Mustachian might put the net cost of replacing* their home in a separate account or portfolio allocation and invest it conservatively to avoid the risk of overlapping SORR and home losses. The yield on such a portfolio might be very attractive, because it would be the sum of investment returns plus the insurance premiums one avoided. For example, a person with a $200k net replacement cost home and $3k per year premiums could instead build a $200k portfolio of treasuries, agency bonds, and CDs yielding 5%. Such a portfolio would yield $10k in cash from the investments, plus $3k per year in avoided insurance costs, for a total yield of (13/200=) 6.5%. That's enough to keep up with property appreciation in most places and in most years that aren't 2021 or 2022. So inflation probably won't run up the cost of replacing one's house beyond what the portfolio can generate to grow itself.

What are your thoughts about a potential future scenario where insurance is uneconomical?

Footnotes:
*Insurance considers the replacement cost of a house to be the cost of constructing a whole new house in its place. Mustachians will note that in many markets, the actual cost of replacing a 1970s ranch house is actually the cost of buying another 1970s ranch house, minus the resale value of the land on which the old house stood or its salvage value. This way of calculating our actual replacement cost can be a lot less than the full retail price of a brand new house. In other markets (e.g. HCOL and restricted) the cost of rebuilding might be cheaper than swapping.

**E.g. in a deflationary recession like the Great Depression or 2007-2009, a self-insurance portfolio of treasuries would spin off cash while the replacement cost of your house* declines.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 11:44:09 AM by ChpBstrd »

eddy20

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Interesting thread and I'm thinking what to do about my latest insurance bill. The increase from last year is over 1,000%! Also my insurance can only be purchased thru the CA Fair Plan, which should be named the UNFAIR plan. We are not prone to fires in Eureka, CA; but the area about 150 miles east of us burned down two years ago and now the insurance companies increased the border lines to include Eureka, CA. Eureka is damp and high humidity but we are included in the updated fire zone. Of course it does not help that many companies are no longer writing new policies in California.

former player

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If you are having to go through all these complicated steps to think about your house insurance then your house is in the wrong place and your insurance bill is the stupid tax for buying somewhere the chances are high of losing every physical thing you own to fire, flood or wind.

There is a simple answer: sell up and move somewhere more sensible.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 01:49:20 PM by former player »

GuitarStv

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Here in Toronto my home insurance prices haven't changed significantly over the past ten years.  Where are you living that you're seeing these huge spikes?

clarkfan1979

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If you are having to go through all these complicated steps to think about your house insurance then your house is in the wrong place and your insurance bill is the stupid tax for buying somewhere the chances are high of losing every physical thing you own to fire, flood or wind.

There is a simple answer: sell up and move somewhere more sensible.

I'm going to push back on this comment a little. Just because something is complicated doesn't mean it's a stupid decision. Companies are constantly re-zoning areas based on their risk profile, which is making it complicated. Let's say I take your advice and move to a low risk area. There is no guarantee that the risk profile of your new house will not be changed by insurance companies in the future. 

Some companies are re-zoning, just to spread the increase cost across more customers to the sting doesn't hurt as much. The people living 10 miles inland from the ocean are getting home insurance increases similar to people within 1 mile of the ocean, even though the risk is lower. If I'm not getting a discount for living 10 miles away from the ocean, I'm going to move closer to the ocean. I want to get my money's worth.

My home insurance in Colorado has gone up significantly, mostly due to fires in the mountains that are at least 100 miles away. I have a rental in Fort Myers, FL, about 3 miles inland. My home insurance costs are going up significantly due to the damage within 1/2 mile of the gulf from Hurricane Ian, even though my rental experienced no damage.
 


Bartlebooth

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Some relief can be found in raising the deductible.  I believe mine is at $10k, so (from memory) on a $288k house I am paying about $1k per year.

Anyone else investigated this recently and have actual solid numbers on whether there is much to gain this way?

YttriumNitrate

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Here are some specific thoughts I've had about the consequences and choices we may need to make if insurance becomes "a scam" with low odds of getting a fair payout and high annual premiums:
1) We can reduce our exposure to rising insurance costs by owning smaller, cheaper houses with mortgages small enough to kill in a few years if necessary.
I'll add another:

9) If home owner's insurance is a scam, be the one doing the scamming by investing in the insurance companies.

hooplady

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Some relief can be found in raising the deductible.  I believe mine is at $10k, so (from memory) on a $288k house I am paying about $1k per year.

Anyone else investigated this recently and have actual solid numbers on whether there is much to gain this way?
I already have high deductibles, a few years ago I asked about raising them and the difference was negligible.

I'm in the great soggy state of Florida, I know at least one neighbor who is self-insuring - they did add an umbrella policy. For most people that's not an option since they have mortgages. More and more people are being forced into the state-funded company of last resort, and even that's getting too pricey for many.

My insurance company is now requiring that I completely replace my roof even though it's not leaking. I did have a small leak around the chimney a couple years ago, it was difficult to find a roofer who didn't want do a whole new roof and claim it was from a hurricane (it wasn't, I told them so via text so there was plenty of audit trail). That sort of nonsense has just added to the current crisis.

I'm heading towards self-insurance or leaving the state.

Dicey

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We own four homes in CA, worth about $3.3M. Three are rentals. Combined, the rentals are worth almost as much as our primary. We pay $5k total per year for homeowner's on all four. Our deductible is $5k per property, so it's not barebones, by any means. Why is it so low? We used an independent agent. She figured out that since DH worked for a public utility, he is a qualified Civil Servant. She found a well-rated company that specializes in covering Civil Servants and saved us a boatload of money.

No one's ever heard of them, because they don't advertise.

We also insure our cars with them fairly inexpensively, as well.

Independent Agents are worth their weight in gold.

In case anyone's curious, we self-insure against earthquakes, as most people do in CA.  Most EQ policies cost a fortune, have very high deductibles (as much as 25% is common) and low-ish coverage caps. Dr. Google says, typically it's $3.54 per thousand dollars of value annually in CA. That would be $11,682 per year on top of the homeowner's policy costs. Nope.

ChpBstrd

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If you are having to go through all these complicated steps to think about your house insurance then your house is in the wrong place and your insurance bill is the stupid tax for buying somewhere the chances are high of losing every physical thing you own to fire, flood or wind.

There is a simple answer: sell up and move somewhere more sensible.
The videos featured talk about Florida, but the underlying issues are that:

a) the rate hikes cannot be explained by inflation or natural disasters alone, and may have more to do with politics and industry-favoring laws,
b) insurers are increasingly finding ways to defraud their customers, making insurance produces worth less, and
c) these factors could spread anywhere, especially since customers have no choice but to buy insurance and there is no meaningful political opposition to the insurance lobby.

To reiterate that this is not just a coastal / faultline / wildfireland issue, consider the list of states in which insurance rates have increased the fastest in 2023 so far:
#1 New Mexico + 8.3% (no hurricanes, no faults, occasional wildfires, no tornados)
#2 Arizona +8.2% (no hurricanes, no faults, occasional wildfires, no tornados)
#3 South Dakota +7.3% (no hurricanes, no faults, very seldom wildfires)
The top-12 list is rounded out by places like Illinois, North Dakota, New York, Rhode Island ... these are not exactly Key West or Miami!

The 2022 list (same link) includes:
#3 Arizona +11% again!
#8 South Dakota +7.5% again!

So these are not exactly condos built on sandbars a few yards from the ocean. Some of the fastest-rising states are places we don't associate with disasters at all. Famously disaster-prone California didn't even make it into the top-12 list in either year.

Louise

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Some relief can be found in raising the deductible.  I believe mine is at $10k, so (from memory) on a $288k house I am paying about $1k per year.

Anyone else investigated this recently and have actual solid numbers on whether there is much to gain this way?

Our home insurance isn't too bad (1200/yr), but I think our deductible is 500 or 1000. I should call our agent and get it raised. We probably wouldn't make a claim under $10K anyway and we don't live in an area with a lot of weather events.

MrGreen

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With the increase in extreme weather events we're starting to see the same pattern develop in home insurance markets as what has always been the case for flood insurance. Only a small percentage of homes are extremely risky and their insurance cost is probably too low. Rather than make the insurance cost truly reflective of the risk, higher costs are being spread over homes in a greater area even where the risk isn't that high.


sonofsven

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Before you do this I would get some quotes on how much a new house would cost, just to make sure you are budgeting enough for replacement.
Building costs for labor and material have gone up significantly in the last three years.
At least you already own the land.


sonofsven

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Some relief can be found in raising the deductible.  I believe mine is at $10k, so (from memory) on a $288k house I am paying about $1k per year.

Anyone else investigated this recently and have actual solid numbers on whether there is much to gain this way?

My house is insured for $359K, the lowest amount I could choose. My deductible is $10k, the highest amount I could choose.
If I were to switch to a $5k deductible, it would cost $11/mo more; $28/mo more for $2k deductible.
This is with USAA.
I would rebuild the house myself if needed, so I am not concerned with a high deductible and low insured amount.

Metalcat

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Here in Toronto my home insurance prices haven't changed significantly over the past ten years.  Where are you living that you're seeing these huge spikes?

Really? In in Ontario too and my insurance has pretty much doubled since 2019.

chasesfish

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Lots of older people around me in Florida have dropped their insurance. 

There's a number of reasons this makes sense in my market:

- Few options for insurers on a barrier island.   Florida allows insurers to redline zip codes. 

- Their cost basis is far below lot value.   Land + Structure is probably only worth 20% more than land alone.

- We're 70 miles or so north of the highest latitude recorded major hurricane hit in Florida.   It could happen, but less likely than South Florida or the Gulf Coast. 

- Elevation is above the flood zone here.  13-14' above.   Not full of tall pine trees either like further north Florida or the Carolinas. 

- Home insurers require additional costs.  Replacing perfectly good electrical panels or a roof because it's deemed too old.  The state's "insurer or last resort" will only give you one year of coverage and then drop you if the roof isn't replaced if more than 10 years old. 

I can see a scenario where I drop coverage in a decade.

MrGreen

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While replacing a roof every 10 years might seem like an extreme action, here's an interesting data point. The neighborhood we live in got caught in the 2008-09 recession. The original builder went out of business. When Florence hit in 2018 there were 30 or so homes that were 11-12 years old and 100 or so homes that were 5-7 years old. Almost none of the newer homes lost shingles. Nearly all of the older homes lost shingles and had major water intrusion damage. Our next door neighbor at the time lost an upstairs room, all the flooring on their first floor, and ceiling drywall damage in the garage. The older house next to them had to be gutted to the studs and the homeowners were out of the house for a year due to materials delays. To look at their roofs and see a patch of shingles missing you'd think, "oh that doesn't look too bad" but then 30" of rain went directly into their house.

ChpBstrd

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Lots of older people around me in Florida have dropped their insurance. 

There's a number of reasons this makes sense in my market:

- Few options for insurers on a barrier island.   Florida allows insurers to redline zip codes. 

- Their cost basis is far below lot value.   Land + Structure is probably only worth 20% more than land alone.

- We're 70 miles or so north of the highest latitude recorded major hurricane hit in Florida.   It could happen, but less likely than South Florida or the Gulf Coast. 

- Elevation is above the flood zone here.  13-14' above.   Not full of tall pine trees either like further north Florida or the Carolinas. 

- Home insurers require additional costs.  Replacing perfectly good electrical panels or a roof because it's deemed too old.  The state's "insurer or last resort" will only give you one year of coverage and then drop you if the roof isn't replaced if more than 10 years old. 

I can see a scenario where I drop coverage in a decade.
This is interesting. Presumably these older individuals have the means to relocate if their homes become uninhabitable? Also, it seems they are assuming the market will continue to value the structure+land at only 20% more than the land itself, so they can sell their old lot to pay off 80% of their next house and only lose 20% of their property's value to the hurricane, flood, or fire? Will that assumption always be valid? In what places is that assumption valid, and what if the characteristics of those places change (e.g. if hurricane strikes become more frequent)?

Finally, there's the question of what happens to the whole market if insurance costs spiral out of control. Why would the land be worth so much if it was economically unfeasible to build anything significant enough to require insurance, or if only the wealthy could afford to risk the full reconstruction costs of a SFH? Who in such a market would build a new McMansion and leave it uninsured?

GilesMM

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Insurance cost simply reflects the cost to repair/rebuild and the risk of loss.  I certainly don't want to be on the hook for the loss of my home and rebuilding it after the fire. I prefer to pay a tiny fraction of that cost each year.


If the cost of the insurance approaches the cost of a total loss (has it?) that is a signal you are living in a location almost guaranteed to have a loss in the next year or two. Time to move.

GuitarStv

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Here in Toronto my home insurance prices haven't changed significantly over the past ten years.  Where are you living that you're seeing these huge spikes?

Really? In in Ontario too and my insurance has pretty much doubled since 2019.

Yep.  Our insurance has more or less kept pace with inflation.  I wonder if home location plays into this?  We live more or less at the top of a hill, well away from water but not so high up that damaging winds are a regular concern.

ChpBstrd

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Perhaps what's needed is a poll:

1) What percentage of the net cost of replacing your home (either by reconstruction or by buying a neighboring property and selling your old house's lot, whichever is lower) are you paying each year for homeowners' insurance?

     I pay $681/year to Farmers to insure about $150k of replacement cost with a $10k deductible, so 0.45% of the home's replacement value. (no hurricane, earthquake, tsunami, or wildfire risk, but some tornado risk.)

2) At what percentage of cost would you consider self-insuring?

    2% would tip the scale for me. At that level of insurance costs and at today's safe investment yields, I could easily earn a net 7.5% on a growing pile of money (premiums save plus low-risk yields). I'd be better prepared to handle losses smaller than my $10k deductible, such as a new roof, and I would be at less risk of being defrauded by my insurance company, having to sue, etc. Looks like my insurance would have to get about 4x more expensive before this option looked good on paper, so my market could probably absorb lots more rate increases before people like myself started self-insuring. However another factor to watch is the ease of getting claims paid in full. If that risk got high enough I might prioritize self-insurance.

GilesMM

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My homeowner's is about 0.17% of insured value. I would move to a lower risk area before I would consider self-insuring in an ultra high-risk location.

former player

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0.03%  Because I live somewhere safe in a solidly constructed house (concrete block with slate tiled roof).

Metalcat

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Here in Toronto my home insurance prices haven't changed significantly over the past ten years.  Where are you living that you're seeing these huge spikes?

Really? In in Ontario too and my insurance has pretty much doubled since 2019.

Yep.  Our insurance has more or less kept pace with inflation.  I wonder if home location plays into this?  We live more or less at the top of a hill, well away from water but not so high up that damaging winds are a regular concern.

Mine is condo insurance for an 20th floor apartment in a concrete building. There are no weather factors that could possibly influence my claims, those would all be shouldered by the condo corporation policy. My risk of burning the inside of my unit hasn't risen, so I have no idea why my policy is so much more.

bluecollarmusician

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Has anyone who is considering self-insurance given consideration to liability?

Even if you are prepared to pay for damages to your property in a bad storm, what if your property damages another or someone is injured as a result, are you prepared to take that on as well?

I mostly cary (all) my insurance for these concerns- the fact that you have the assets to self-insure indicates that you have something for someone to come after in a liability case.

Anyone have knowledge or thoughts on this?

hooplady

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Has anyone who is considering self-insurance given consideration to liability?

Even if you are prepared to pay for damages to your property in a bad storm, what if your property damages another or someone is injured as a result, are you prepared to take that on as well?

I mostly cary (all) my insurance for these concerns- the fact that you have the assets to self-insure indicates that you have something for someone to come after in a liability case.

Anyone have knowledge or thoughts on this?
As I said above, at least one neighbor has self-insured and added an umbrella policy for the rest. I'd likely do the same.

GilesMM

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Has anyone who is considering self-insurance given consideration to liability?

Even if you are prepared to pay for damages to your property in a bad storm, what if your property damages another or someone is injured as a result, are you prepared to take that on as well?

I mostly cary (all) my insurance for these concerns- the fact that you have the assets to self-insure indicates that you have something for someone to come after in a liability case.

Anyone have knowledge or thoughts on this?
As I said above, at least one neighbor has self-insured and added an umbrella policy for the rest. I'd likely do the same.


It is pretty tough to find umbrella without a policy for a home you own as it is excess to underlying policies.

hooplady

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It is pretty tough to find umbrella without a policy for a home you own as it is excess to underlying policies.
That was always my understanding too, I need to circle back to them to ask for more details. Perhaps they have cars or other property? Dunno.

[Edited: I dug back through old info, they didn't say "umbrella" they said "liability only"...I think I conflated this with another discussion about umbrella add-ons to protect assets above the policy limits. Entirely my bad, sorry!]
« Last Edit: August 17, 2023, 02:48:58 PM by hooplady »

Telecaster

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Insurance companies make money in one or both of two ways:  On the underwriting and investing the float.   The investment returns on the float is where the real money is.   Berkshire Hathaway is the poster child for this.   So many insurance companies are willing to lose money on the underwriting in order to increase their market share and make it back up in the float.   The reinsurance companies are playing the same game.  So there is sort of an international game of chicken to see who is willing to exchange the most underwriting losses for market share.   In the last few years there have been some big losses which have smacked the reinsurance companies, so they are no longer willing to take underwriting losses.   That means local insurers have to jack their rates.   

I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but I recall a few years ago Warren Buffet saying BRK's share of the reinsurance market was shrinking because they weren't willing to take under writing losses.   But I saw recently they were moving back into markets that other reinsurers had left. 

Jon Bon

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OK, I will bite.




1) We can reduce our exposure to rising insurance costs by owning smaller, cheaper houses with mortgages small enough to kill in a few years if necessary. Yes this works for most of us in the MMM community which is <1% of the population

2) We can reduce our risk of going without insurance by building houses that are less fragile. E.g. tougher roofing materials, better resistance to high winds, termite-proof and waterproof materials, fire-resistant design, and design features that make it cheap and easy to DIY swap out components like windows. Such construction techniques are common in other parts of the world, but Americans tend to buy stick houses with fragile asphalt shingles because that delivers a cheap price and because insurance has been affordable in the past. Unaffordable insurance tilts the decision in favor of spending extra to have a tile roof, concrete construction, better materials, etc. Usually this would require we custom-build. Yes this would totally work, however according to the media we are in a housing 'crisis' and adding cost to the price of a house is evil! I mean I am for this I think the math is make a house 5% more expensive and make it 30% stronger or something like that.

3) We can also reduce our risk of going without insurance by not living in areas prone to hurricanes, wildfires, floods, or earthquakes. This is what 100-200 million Americans that live in these areas? I don't think this one is even remotely possible. Nor are people going to stop building in places that look pretty although making insurance more expensive in these areas is probably a good idea

 

5) If homeowners' insurance is becoming an uneconomical, duopolistic racket, then the overall price of homes is too high. I.e. if we violate the assumption that insurance expenses will continue to be affordable, then the true cost of home ownership will be higher than people currently expect. The result per supply and demand theory should be a "deadweight loss" like taxes which should reduce the price of the item. Whether prices actually change probably involves a lot more factors, but unaffordable insurance *should* be a factor reducing prices. I will highly disagree here, my wife works in insurance, and they are all getting absolutely killed. The price of houses and materials is way up due to inflation and lack of workers. The severity of weather events is way the hell up due to climate change. Hell and entire city just burned down in hawaii, I am sure lots of them have insurance. IMO they should raise rates even faster to compensate for the increase in claims but they would lost to many customers to others who trade profitability for market share. So yeah its 10% increase a year easy in higher risk areas. (which is close to inflation some years btw)

What are your thoughts about a potential future scenario where insurance is uneconomical?

Footnotes:
*Insurance considers the replacement cost of a house to be the cost of constructing a whole new house in its place. Mustachians will note that in many markets, the actual cost of replacing a 1970s ranch house is actually the cost of buying another 1970s ranch house, minus the resale value of the land on which the old house stood or its salvage value. This way of calculating our actual replacement cost can be a lot less than the full retail price of a brand new house. In other markets (e.g. HCOL and restricted) the cost of rebuilding might be cheaper than swapping.

**E.g. in a deflationary recession like the Great Depression or 2007-2009, a self-insurance portfolio of treasuries would spin off cash while the replacement cost of your house* declines.

While I agree that some sort of self insurance/high deductible would really help the situation and cut down on fraud (looking at you roofers!) Most folks can barely make their monthly car payments. I think a large amount of reform is needed. I also think some areas should be straight up phased out by insurers. Public and private. If your house is going to get burned up or blown down every 10 years that's on you to make sure you can rebuild it. There are way to many multimillion dollar homes that are either investments or a rich persons play thing. There is a big difference between a primary residence SFH 1 mile from the beach and a beach front house rented out 40 weeks a year. They should be treated way differently.

I also think the US government should no be insuring anyone's home, but I am just somebody on the internet.

zolotiyeruki

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Before we rush into abandoning insurance altogether, or slathering regulations on top of it, I think it'd be worth the effort to dig down to what's driving the cost of insurance up. I don't pretend to have any special insight here, but I can speculate about a few things:

1) inflation in general (thanks to both Trump and Biden for all that helicopter money...)
2) cost of labor and materials skyrocketing - the shortage in the trades is a big one (in large part thanks to the "everyone should go to college" push)
3) people using insurance to pay for things they should have been saving up for (ROOFS!*)
4) government policy and/or other factors that increase risk (forest mismanagement in California, power lines in HI)
5) increased profit-taking in the insurance industry?
6) houses getting bigger and fancier over time

* Hundreds of homes in our neighborhood (Chicago suburb) have had their roofs replaced in the last two years, paid for by insurance.  There have been some really big hailstorms (golf-ball-sized and larger) in our area during that time, but in our neighborhood, we haven't seen anything larger than about 0.75".  Every summer, we get a dozen visits by roofing companies, looking to cash in on the lastest thunderstorm.  Since our roof is now 18 years old, and we'd prefer not to pay out-of-pocket to replace it, we're considering filing a claim, but whenever we have a roofer look at it, the result is "a few minor dings, but other than that, it's in great shape.  Just normal wear and tear."  Somehow, our three-tab, builder-grade shingles are holding up.

ChpBstrd

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Every summer, we get a dozen visits by roofing companies, looking to cash in on the lastest thunderstorm.  Since our roof is now 18 years old, and we'd prefer not to pay out-of-pocket to replace it, we're considering filing a claim, but whenever we have a roofer look at it, the result is "a few minor dings, but other than that, it's in great shape.  Just normal wear and tear."  Somehow, our three-tab, builder-grade shingles are holding up.
This probably seems very weird from the perspective of someone living in Europe, where roofs are made from concrete shingles or tile and can last 100+ years. Do Europeans have more resilient roofs because they have more hailstorms, tornadoes, or hurricanes? No. Actually they have less roof-damaging weather. I can only conclude the difference is a matter of mentality and economics. The mentality is "Why TF would I work hard to build a nice house and then roof it with trash?" and the economics is of a place that taxes oil-based products heavily. The American mentality, OTOH is "how can I build this box more cheaply so I can sell it for more profit?" and the economics are driven by, ironically, insurance companies wanting to fulfill their claims obligations as cheaply as possible.

zolotiyeruki

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Every summer, we get a dozen visits by roofing companies, looking to cash in on the lastest thunderstorm.  Since our roof is now 18 years old, and we'd prefer not to pay out-of-pocket to replace it, we're considering filing a claim, but whenever we have a roofer look at it, the result is "a few minor dings, but other than that, it's in great shape.  Just normal wear and tear."  Somehow, our three-tab, builder-grade shingles are holding up.
This probably seems very weird from the perspective of someone living in Europe, where roofs are made from concrete shingles or tile and can last 100+ years. Do Europeans have more resilient roofs because they have more hailstorms, tornadoes, or hurricanes? No. Actually they have less roof-damaging weather. I can only conclude the difference is a matter of mentality and economics. The mentality is "Why TF would I work hard to build a nice house and then roof it with trash?" and the economics is of a place that taxes oil-based products heavily. The American mentality, OTOH is "how can I build this box more cheaply so I can sell it for more profit?" and the economics are driven by, ironically, insurance companies wanting to fulfill their claims obligations as cheaply as possible.
I suspect that there's a bit of a virtuous/vicious cycle here.  Houses are a LOT more expensive in Europe, so the additional cost of a heftier roof represents a smaller incremental cost.

Quote
1)We can reduce our exposure to rising insurance costs by owning smaller, cheaper houses with mortgages small enough to kill in a few years if necessary.
2) We can reduce our risk of going without insurance by building houses that are less fragile.
This is one of my "bucket list" items when we retire.  Design and build (or have built) a really, really high-quality, efficient (in both energy and space) home that will cost hardly anything to condition or maintain.

The ROI of various energy-efficiency approaches is well studied--insulation, roof overhangs, wall construction, heat pumps, solar, etc.  What I haven't seen as much is analysis of the ROI of making the layout more efficient.  Fewer square feet means fewer building materials as well as less externally-exposed surfaces.  And better architectural details around weatherproofing and material selection can mean a LOT of money saved on maintenance over time.

The funny thing is, though, that our vinyl siding is 18 years old, and we've only had a single piece come off the house in the 12 years we've lived here.  No hail damage, no wind damage.  It's the cheapest kind of siding, yet it's...just fine.

bill1827

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Every summer, we get a dozen visits by roofing companies, looking to cash in on the lastest thunderstorm.  Since our roof is now 18 years old, and we'd prefer not to pay out-of-pocket to replace it, we're considering filing a claim, but whenever we have a roofer look at it, the result is "a few minor dings, but other than that, it's in great shape.  Just normal wear and tear."  Somehow, our three-tab, builder-grade shingles are holding up.
This probably seems very weird from the perspective of someone living in Europe, where roofs are made from concrete shingles or tile and can last 100+ years. Do Europeans have more resilient roofs because they have more hailstorms, tornadoes, or hurricanes? No. Actually they have less roof-damaging weather. I can only conclude the difference is a matter of mentality and economics. The mentality is "Why TF would I work hard to build a nice house and then roof it with trash?" and the economics is of a place that taxes oil-based products heavily. The American mentality, OTOH is "how can I build this box more cheaply so I can sell it for more profit?" and the economics are driven by, ironically, insurance companies wanting to fulfill their claims obligations as cheaply as possible.
I suspect that there's a bit of a virtuous/vicious cycle here.  Houses are a LOT more expensive in Europe, so the additional cost of a heftier roof represents a smaller incremental cost.

It's simply historical accident. Lots of roofing materials have been used in Europe so there was an established usage pattern. With the advent of canals and railways providing cheap transportation and mass production of brick and clay tiles, slate and clay tiles became relatively cheap and ubiquitous.

According to Wikipedia the asphalt shingle was developed in the US about 1903. A cheap lightweight material available when lots of cheap lightweight houses were being built took over the US market, but it would be hard to penetrate the European market when there was already a large pool of existing buildings. By and large people want what they are used to and there's no great advantage to using asphalt shingles over here. Material costs are pretty insignificant as a percentage of the value of a house compared to land value and labour costs, so why use cheap asphalt shingles when you can use a durable material?

JLee

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If you are having to go through all these complicated steps to think about your house insurance then your house is in the wrong place and your insurance bill is the stupid tax for buying somewhere the chances are high of losing every physical thing you own to fire, flood or wind.

There is a simple answer: sell up and move somewhere more sensible.
The videos featured talk about Florida, but the underlying issues are that:

a) the rate hikes cannot be explained by inflation or natural disasters alone, and may have more to do with politics and industry-favoring laws,
b) insurers are increasingly finding ways to defraud their customers, making insurance produces worth less, and
c) these factors could spread anywhere, especially since customers have no choice but to buy insurance and there is no meaningful political opposition to the insurance lobby.

To reiterate that this is not just a coastal / faultline / wildfireland issue, consider the list of states in which insurance rates have increased the fastest in 2023 so far:
#1 New Mexico + 8.3% (no hurricanes, no faults, occasional wildfires, no tornados)
#2 Arizona +8.2% (no hurricanes, no faults, occasional wildfires, no tornados)
#3 South Dakota +7.3% (no hurricanes, no faults, very seldom wildfires)
The top-12 list is rounded out by places like Illinois, North Dakota, New York, Rhode Island ... these are not exactly Key West or Miami!

The 2022 list (same link) includes:
#3 Arizona +11% again!
#8 South Dakota +7.5% again!

So these are not exactly condos built on sandbars a few yards from the ocean. Some of the fastest-rising states are places we don't associate with disasters at all. Famously disaster-prone California didn't even make it into the top-12 list in either year.

That's approximately tracking with inflation, and is less than construction cost increases.

Michael in ABQ

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3) people using insurance to pay for things they should have been saving up for (ROOFS!*)

* Hundreds of homes in our neighborhood (Chicago suburb) have had their roofs replaced in the last two years, paid for by insurance.  There have been some really big hailstorms (golf-ball-sized and larger) in our area during that time, but in our neighborhood, we haven't seen anything larger than about 0.75".  Every summer, we get a dozen visits by roofing companies, looking to cash in on the lastest thunderstorm.  Since our roof is now 18 years old, and we'd prefer not to pay out-of-pocket to replace it, we're considering filing a claim, but whenever we have a roofer look at it, the result is "a few minor dings, but other than that, it's in great shape.  Just normal wear and tear."  Somehow, our three-tab, builder-grade shingles are holding up.

I just listened to a podcast about buying businesses (Acquisitions Anonymous) and they were looking at a residential roofing company in northern Virginia and talked about this same market dynamic. Roofers finding a home with some hail damage and working the insurance system to get paid for replacing an entire roof that may have only been a few years old. This particular business subcontracted out all the labor so the entire business was basically sales people finding residential customers and then back office workers filing insurance claims with a few people supervising the actual roofing jobs. They were doing about $10 million in top-line revenue.

chasesfish

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At some point will roofs become an excluded part of a homeowners policy?  Or will deductibles just be increased to $15,000 to avoid this?

JLee

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3) people using insurance to pay for things they should have been saving up for (ROOFS!*)

* Hundreds of homes in our neighborhood (Chicago suburb) have had their roofs replaced in the last two years, paid for by insurance.  There have been some really big hailstorms (golf-ball-sized and larger) in our area during that time, but in our neighborhood, we haven't seen anything larger than about 0.75".  Every summer, we get a dozen visits by roofing companies, looking to cash in on the lastest thunderstorm.  Since our roof is now 18 years old, and we'd prefer not to pay out-of-pocket to replace it, we're considering filing a claim, but whenever we have a roofer look at it, the result is "a few minor dings, but other than that, it's in great shape.  Just normal wear and tear."  Somehow, our three-tab, builder-grade shingles are holding up.

I just listened to a podcast about buying businesses (Acquisitions Anonymous) and they were looking at a residential roofing company in northern Virginia and talked about this same market dynamic. Roofers finding a home with some hail damage and working the insurance system to get paid for replacing an entire roof that may have only been a few years old. This particular business subcontracted out all the labor so the entire business was basically sales people finding residential customers and then back office workers filing insurance claims with a few people supervising the actual roofing jobs. They were doing about $10 million in top-line revenue.

Something like that was mentioned when I sold my house in Arizona -- I forget who brought it up (roofing company maybe), but basically the gist was "can you find storm damage to the roof and use that for a homeowners' insurance claim and replace the whole thing."   I just paid for a new roof...it was old and due for replacement.

hooplady

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At some point will roofs become an excluded part of a homeowners policy?  Or will deductibles just be increased to $15,000 to avoid this?
My hurricane deductible is almost $9k so we're not far off.

MrGreen

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The roof thing is interesting for sure. A few years back we had a bad thunderstorm go through and rip a few shingles off our rental townhouse. Some water got in and stained the second floor ceiling in a couple places. Adjuster comes out and says with the drywall damage, they are required to reimburse for replacing the drywall and insulation above it, even though she could tell from her two decades in the business that a paint sealer and then paint would take care of the stain and the water intrusion was so small it had already tried up in the heat of the attic.

The roof was quoted for replacement but then devalued by the age of the roof. At 19 years old, the roof was end of life, so the payout would be very little. However, our policy had a rider that payed out replacement cost, so once the roof was replaced we could submit the receipt and be reimbursed the entire cost of the roof minus our deductible.

We had a $1,000 deductible and after all the drywall and insulation we didn't replace at our adjuster's off-the-record opinion, the whole job cost us $100 out of pocket. The whole bill was a little over 5k.

It was the first time I'd ever submitted a homeowners claim so I got quite the education.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2023, 12:07:16 PM by Mr. Green »

ChpBstrd

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Every summer, we get a dozen visits by roofing companies, looking to cash in on the lastest thunderstorm.  Since our roof is now 18 years old, and we'd prefer not to pay out-of-pocket to replace it, we're considering filing a claim, but whenever we have a roofer look at it, the result is "a few minor dings, but other than that, it's in great shape.  Just normal wear and tear."  Somehow, our three-tab, builder-grade shingles are holding up.
This probably seems very weird from the perspective of someone living in Europe, where roofs are made from concrete shingles or tile and can last 100+ years. Do Europeans have more resilient roofs because they have more hailstorms, tornadoes, or hurricanes? No. Actually they have less roof-damaging weather. I can only conclude the difference is a matter of mentality and economics. The mentality is "Why TF would I work hard to build a nice house and then roof it with trash?" and the economics is of a place that taxes oil-based products heavily. The American mentality, OTOH is "how can I build this box more cheaply so I can sell it for more profit?" and the economics are driven by, ironically, insurance companies wanting to fulfill their claims obligations as cheaply as possible.
I suspect that there's a bit of a virtuous/vicious cycle here.  Houses are a LOT more expensive in Europe, so the additional cost of a heftier roof represents a smaller incremental cost.
Quote
It's simply historical accident. Lots of roofing materials have been used in Europe so there was an established usage pattern. With the advent of canals and railways providing cheap transportation and mass production of brick and clay tiles, slate and clay tiles became relatively cheap and ubiquitous.

According to Wikipedia the asphalt shingle was developed in the US about 1903. A cheap lightweight material available when lots of cheap lightweight houses were being built took over the US market, but it would be hard to penetrate the European market when there was already a large pool of existing buildings. By and large people want what they are used to and there's no great advantage to using asphalt shingles over here. Material costs are pretty insignificant as a percentage of the value of a house compared to land value and labour costs, so why use cheap asphalt shingles when you can use a durable material?
My neighbor has concrete shingles that are original from the 1920s. When a tree knocked a hole in the roof, he and the insurance company had a hard time figuring out what to do because those original concrete shingle designs are not available. The insurance company offered to trash the concrete shingles and put asphalt on. My neighbor wisely declined and figured out a solution that involved borrowing and replacing a few original shingles that were being used as capstones on another section of roof. Now he's good to go for another 100 years instead of 20.

Asphalt shingles are kind of like a trap. Most houses are probably not built to support the weight of more durable solutions like my neighbors'. 5/8" (1.6 cm) thick oriented strand board over 16" (41cm) rafters are the norm in the US, and that's potentially not enough to hold up 700lb per 10'x10' square (more for clay). So probably most homeowners do not have the option to upgrade their roofing to something more durable, or appropriate for self-insurance.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!