Updating electrical in old house?

[redbird]

I'm in the US south. There's a house for sale that I'm interested in from the 1960's. The current owner inherited the home when her grandmother died and has never lived in it and doesn't know much about it. I don't know much about electric systems, but it seems like it may the original electrical from the '60s. The outlets are all old 2 prong outlets with no 3rd prong grounding. The seller's realtor told me that the owner may be convinced to pay for certain things for safety reasons, and having been a realtor for many years, he mentioned knowing some insurance won't want to cover houses with electrical systems that old.

If the seller will not pay for the electrical update for whatever reason if she accepts my offer (because I know my home inspector will definitely bring the electrical up) - anyone know how much this would typically cost? I have not put in an offer yet. The seller has the house priced to account for the fact that it needs some work, so I don't feel cheated or anything if I would have to pay for it, but I just wanted to get a ballpark idea of what I'd be getting myself into. The house is about 3,000 sq ft.

[Sibley]

1960s.... old.... HAHAHAHA. No, that's not old. That house is middle aged, at best.

Ok. More helpfully.

1960s your biggest worry is if the wiring is aluminum. If it is, that is a fire hazard and yeah you might have problems with insurance. Plus, it's a fire hazard. I forget the details why at the moment but it has to do with expansion/contraction of the metal can cause connections to loosen or something.

If it's not aluminum, then it might basically be ok with a few tweaks. My parents are buying a house of that era. All the switches and outlets are original, and nothing is grounded. Except that it looks like the wires are in conduit, so my understanding is there's a way to ground the outlets to the conduit. (Ask me in a few weeks how that worked out.) Switches are pretty easy to swap out. The wiring can get brittle with age, so you do need to be gentle. Otherwise, if the electric is original then you don't have the necessary circuits in the kitchen, lacking some outlets, etc. And if your electric box is original that might need to be updated.

If you DO  need to replace the wiring in the walls, that's a big, expensive project. Exact cost would depend on the size, layout, local costs, etc, but budget $30k maybe? Get multiple quotes if you can. And if you can manage to not live there while do that, makes things much easier.

Yes, some insurance companies only want to cover basically new houses. That's their choice. Get more quotes.

[joenorm]

 Circuits run without a ground wire(EGC) can be retrofit with GFCI protection either as a receptacle(wall outlet) or at the panel as a breaker. You do not need to rewire the whole house unless you want to.

Having a ground wire is still better but this is a code compliant solution to the problem and much improved level of safety. 

[former player]

Circuits run without a ground wire(EGC) can be retrofit with GFCI protection either as a receptacle(wall outlet) or at the panel as a breaker. You do not need to rewire the whole house unless you want to.

Having a ground wire is still better but this is a code compliant solution to the problem and much improved level of safety.

Seconding this: if you put in a new fuse box/panel of the GFCI/RCD type where the electricity enters the building you are pretty much protected from dangerous electric shock or fire.  If you put that in and you find that it is tripping a circuit then it is telling you that there is a problem either with that circuit or with the appliance you are using on that circuit, and you can remedy the problem accordingly.

1960s wiring is about at the stage when a re-wire is a good idea.  But starting with a new fuse box should keep you safe while you consider your options and get professional advice.

[affordablehousing]

Yeah I would think a whole rewire and patch job is about $25-30K. A panel upgrade with AFCI breakers would probably be about $5K. The electrical may be easier to deal with piecemeal as you update individual rooms one at a time.

[nereo]

The house was built in the 1960s… ha!  Our new homes are older than that.

As sibley said, the only big concern from that era is aluminum wiring. Joenorm already covered how to add GFCI to make them code compliant. None of this is difficult to do, or even costly. 

Does it have a circuit breaker or an older fuse box?

A more basic question is what concerns does the insurer have?

[Fru-Gal]

Not to hijack the thread but as owner of a much older house with knob and tube wiring, if I have a circuit breaker box is that also compliant with the GFCI thing? We don't have any fuse boxes other than one in a closet that as far as I know is not functional.

Our wiring is mix/match some old, some new. We've added some GFCIs in some rooms (using electricians). Still meaning to rewire the living room and one bedroom, which is a priority because it's scary right now how many extension cords we're using. Plus I'm running an ethernet cable along the baseboard and it might be nice to put a compliant one in the wall too.

[Sibley]

Not to hijack the thread but as owner of a much older house with knob and tube wiring, if I have a circuit breaker box is that also compliant with the GFCI thing? We don't have any fuse boxes other than one in a closet that as far as I know is not functional.

Our wiring is mix/match some old, some new. We've added some GFCIs in some rooms (using electricians). Still meaning to rewire the living room and one bedroom, which is a priority because it's scary right now how many extension cords we're using. Plus I'm running an ethernet cable along the baseboard and it might be nice to put a compliant one in the wall too.

Unlikely. The GFCI boxes/breakers I think are relatively recent I think, and I've seen one. It looked different than the normal breakers. Google them and compare to your box.

K&T isn't inherently bad. In fact, it was darn good for its time. The problem is that it's old (and the resultant age related degradation), who knows what people have done with it in the meantime, and it simply wasn't designed to handle the load of modern electronics. All these things can cause problems. However, even than, I don't believe the risk of fire is that high. If it was all the old houses with K&T would have gone up in flames by now. It's really that it just doesn't work for what we need it to any more and the only way to fix that is to replace it. Plus, you can't insulate around K&T.

The replacement is a mess though. You can try to work through the basement/crawl/attic, but there is still a point at which you're cutting into the wall. It's messy.

[redbird]

Thanks everyone. I'll be taking another look at the house tomorrow and try to see if I can figure out about the aluminum wiring. I did get to look at the boxes last time I was there. There was 3 boxes - one that was a circuit breaker box (I imagine it was needed to put in the A/C at some point), a box that has fuses, and another fuse box that's marked as MAIN on the giant fuse itself inside. Again, not knowing very much about electric right now, I have no idea if the house is using just the circuit breaker or a combination of the 3 boxes.

I was thinking that if I buy this house, I would continue living in my current house for several months and would like to get the electric (and the floors, but that's another story) done before I move into it to make things easier. Just trying to figure out the scope of what I might have to do. I am prepared for $10k-15k if needed, but affordablehousing's pricing is higher than I'd like to do right now, but if I have to do it then I have to do it. If I buy the house I will just get at least 3 quotes and figure out my options.

As far as questions the insurer has, they are closed until tomorrow so I don't know if they have/would have any yet. I'm going to be calling them to get a price quote of what coverage would be anyway. The realtor just was speculating as a possibility that it could come up, since they've seen it happen in the past. I don't know if that would apply to this particular house though.

[srad]

I've purchased homes of all ages and conditions, And I've had some doozies when it came to the electrical systems.  Lots of Knob and Tube homes, Federal Pacific Panels (these are the worst), Your scenario here of mon grounded outlets...   Not once have i been turned away from insurance.   

For a total house rewire with new panel and service, 20k is a good number to ballpark.  And you should be under 20k,

[Dogastrophe]

1960s your biggest worry is if the wiring is aluminum. If it is, that is a fire hazard and yeah you might have problems with insurance. Plus, it's a fire hazard. I forget the details why at the moment but it has to do with expansion/contraction of the metal can cause connections to loosen or something.

Yup, you are correct. Al wire will expand and contract and can cause wire to creep out of the connection and can become a fire hazard.

Another issue is people (homeowners) who don't know any better use incorrect outlets and switches instead of proper ones for Al. When two dissimilar metals (eg. Al and brass connector) are put together, it can cause corrosion at the connector causing the wires to heat up and start a fire.

[Le Poisson]

I am a DIYer who regularly buys houses that others won't touch. It is because I am a sucker for punishment. Also I am in Canada and you are in the American south. Take this post as worth every penny you pay for it.

1. If that house is a single-level, I would think nothing of buying it and rewiring. If this is the case, your wire runs will all be via the basement, tacked on to the floorboards and rising up into the bottom foot of the walls on the main floor. You may have a few spots to patch with tricky fishing jobs, but overall, I would DIY that rewire in a heartbeat.

2. Since the house was built in the '60s there is a good chance that the walls are drywall, not lathe and plaster. If they are drywall, teh fixes for punching through the wall to fish a wire will be a quick, easy job.

3. Replacing a panel sounds big and scary, but it isn't. Around here the electrical authority replaces the wire from the street to the house. They will provide you the jumpers to go from the meter to the panel, but won't hook up the panel until it has a stamp on it from an inspector. The process here would go:
a) Run rough wiring wire to all locations (outlets, lights, fans, water heater, etc.)
b) Turn off power. Remove existing panel, and pony panel. Leave the main, but lock it out.
c) Hook up all the new wiring to the panel and to receptacles.
d) Get inspection.
e) Order new service from street to panel.
4. You should remove all of the old electric that is visible just to give future owners peace of mind, but it isn't at all uncommon to see the old wiring abandoned in the basement, attic, and walls of houses after they have been updated.

In a house that age, you should check for galvanized plumbing. If there is any, you may face a bigger task replacing the plumbing than you do replacing the electric.

If insurance refuses coverage due to plumbing/electric ask for the price of a rider to cover it as an interim measure. you may be able to get a 6-month or 1-year rider to give you time to remedy the problem. If your insurance doesn't offer this, ask for a referral to a high risk insurer who will. I've used Mitchell and Whale locally - it cost me $10K/yr to insure a 4,000SF triplex with galvy plumbing and a few other issues. I got things fixed fast enough that I could ditch the policy after a few months. On the upside, you can negotiate the insurance cost into your purchase/sale price and get the seller to take on your loss.

[theoverlook]

Cutting an opening the wall for an electrical box is SO EASY nowadays with the oscillating multi-tools. You mark the wall where you want the outlet/switch/etc, and cut the hole, fish the wire through, and put in an "old work" box. Yes that's a simplification, but if you have access above or below you can get to the location with the wire. They sell kits for drilling holes in top and bottom plates from inside the room (super long drill bit extension, tool to hold the extension parallel, and pilot drill bit). If you're moderately handy you can rewire a house without tearing out the drywall, again assuming access above or below like an attic or unfinished basement.

You'd have to check with your locality as to whether or not you're allowed to do your own electrical. It may not be allowed. But maybe an electrician would let you run the wire and otherwise do the grunt work and get it to 90% and he could do the connections.

[redbird]

Good news! It looks like the house is all copper from what I can see. The house is from 1961. From my research, it seems like aluminum became a thing around 1965 to coincide with a housing boom and copper becoming more expensive and harder to get. That could explain why I couldn't see any signs of aluminum - it's from before aluminum started being a thing.

The sticker on the circuit breaker box says it's 150 amps, so I will probably need an electrician regardless, as I'd probably want to upgrade to 200 amp service minimum. But at least that, plus swapping out outlets, would be a far cheaper job than I was concerned it might be.

[nereo]

Good news! It looks like the house is all copper from what I can see. The house is from 1961. From my research, it seems like aluminum became a thing around 1965 to coincide with a housing boom and copper becoming more expensive and harder to get. That could explain why I couldn't see any signs of aluminum - it's from before aluminum started being a thing.

The sticker on the circuit breaker box says it's 150 amps, so I will probably need an electrician regardless, as I'd probably want to upgrade to 200 amp service minimum. But at least that, plus swapping out outlets, would be a far cheaper job than I was concerned it might be.

150 amps is actually pretty good for a SFH. I’m not sure I would pay the money just to go to 200 amp service unless there was a noticeable need. Why do you think you want 200?