Author Topic: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?  (Read 17563 times)

Scuba Stache

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Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« on: July 07, 2014, 04:36:47 PM »
I am considering this as a baby step to getting into real estate and am looking for feedback. There is a local company in Jacksonville, FL that is a Turn Key Rental company. They buy properties from auction/wholesale etc, do total renovations (new HVAC, roofs, electrical, etc), Find tenants, sell the house to an investor and then continue to act as property managers (@ 12% ouch). They specialize in 100k homes renting for 1k. They just barely meet the 1% rule, but seems to be lower risk for lower reward scenario as I don't have a team built around me to strike out on my own. What is the communities thoughts on this type of investment?

Pros
Fully renovated home
Non MLS listed homes - No realtor needed saves on closing fees
Continuous portfolio of homes they only sell to their clients (or keep for their own portfolio)
Easy entry door to having a rental portfolio

Cons
Home will be priced at ~ market rate
Contracted into their property mgmt team for 1 yr at 12% which I feel is high

livingthedream

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2014, 04:55:53 PM »
Seems like a good deal... for them. You might be better off investing in a REIT.

RyanHesson

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2014, 06:09:37 PM »
Let me see if I understand, because maybe I don't.

You invest 100K, they handle everything on their end. There's 12K in income, from which they take $1440 and you take $10,560, so 10.5% return? And no risk?

I wanna get in on this.

JoJoP

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2014, 06:34:26 PM »
Before you do this, please take a look at what else is in your market for 100K. 

These folks have a good thing going... they are triple or quadruple dipping:  Making money on the flip; making money on the rehab; making money on the guaranteed resale (to you) and making money on the property management. 

While it seems very safe, an easy way to dip your toe into the buying rental  property concept, in truth, you have completely turned over the decision making process to this company.  Nobody cares more about your financial future than you do, so spend a little time learning what properties are out there, what they rent for, and how to buy and manage a property.   If you are giving them 12% of the rental income, there goes 12% a year that could be in your pocket!  It's not that hard if the place is in good condition and the tenants that you lease to are carefully screened.

Scuba Stache

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2014, 07:35:23 PM »
Let me see if I understand, because maybe I don't.

You invest 100K, they handle everything on their end. There's 12K in income, from which they take $1440 and you take $10,560, so 10.5% return? And no risk?

I wanna get in on this.

Not quite that nice, I actually take ALL the risk. I am buying the house from them, they just handle the property management piece after the sale. They have the flat profit, I have all the risk and expenses.

Ian

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2014, 08:28:36 PM »
This has been on my list of subjects to investigate, but I haven't had time. I'd welcome resources from people on both sides - I'm sure this is a tradeoff that varies based on your situation and area, but I'd like to understand the shape of that tradeoff a little better.

shotgunwilly

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2014, 08:10:37 AM »
I would find a better deal, or just invest in index funds.   

matchewed

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2014, 08:32:34 AM »
Maybe rental questions in the Real Estate and Landlording section could get you a better response and analysis?

I'll just flag it for a mod to move if they'd be so kind.

*Edit*

Danke
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 09:03:39 AM by matchewed »

arebelspy

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2014, 09:05:07 AM »
Let me see if I understand, because maybe I don't.

You invest 100K, they handle everything on their end. There's 12K in income, from which they take $1440 and you take $10,560, so 10.5% return? And no risk?

I wanna get in on this.

Owning rental properties comes with things like property taxes, insurance, vacancies, maintenance, etc.  You don't get to collect gross rents minus property management and keep it all.  :)
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Mr Mark

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2014, 09:20:45 AM »
Sounds better to be on their side of this deal!

Numbers look pretty terrible. 

Scuba Stache

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2014, 12:42:08 PM »
Maybe rental questions in the Real Estate and Landlording section could get you a better response and analysis?

I'll just flag it for a mod to move if they'd be so kind.

*Edit*

Danke

Oops, thought that's where I put it. My apologies.

Bobberth

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2014, 01:07:05 PM »
I am very suspicious about turn key companies from what I have seen going on here in St. Louis.  Every time I see something offered in my area of focus, it is over priced and the rents are over stated.  They are also in less desirable areas where expenses & turnover will be higher.  Most of the time, when they say "cash only", it means that there is no chance the property will appraise for that high of a price to be able to get a mortgage on it.  Also, in St. Louis, things can change block by block.  They may be offering comps that recently sold for much higher but the 4700 block may be a completely different block than the 5000 block so you really need to know the area you are investing.

Personally, I don't understand what a turn key company offers-find a rehabbed property to purchase at market value and find a property manager.  What value does a turn key operator add to justifying paying more than market price?

chasesfish

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2014, 06:15:00 PM »
What they are doing is a real business, but it's usually done by really small players who don't care about the on-going management fees.  They're entrepreneurs who buy houses at a deal and know qualified investors to sell them to.  I think the they're double dipping and marketing to novice investors needing yield,   You'd be better off hanging around a forum like BiggerPockets and searching for people in your area you can get to know and help them as the money guy.


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fixer-upper

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2014, 06:34:16 PM »
When you have to fix stuff they didn't do right during the flip, they get to rake you over the coals again.

Everything is in their favor.

Mr Mark

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2014, 08:35:54 PM »
+1

What they are doing is a real business, but it's usually done by really small players who don't care about the on-going management fees.  They're entrepreneurs who buy houses at a deal and know qualified investors to sell them to.  I think the they're double dipping and marketing to novice investors needing yield,   You'd be better off hanging around a forum like BiggerPockets and searching for people in your area you can get to know and help them as the money guy.


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RyanHesson

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2014, 05:58:45 AM »
Quote
Owning rental properties comes with things like property taxes, insurance, vacancies, maintenance, etc.  You don't get to collect gross rents minus property management and keep it all.  :)

Knew my understanding had to be too good to be true.


JayKay

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2014, 03:37:52 PM »
I've got a few turnkey rentals and I'd say the biggest success factor is picking the most reputable company you can find.

There are a lot of people in this space, including some that are pretty sketchy ones.  I can easily see people getting into a bad situation.

I'm pretty happy with mine, though.  15% COC return for 2 years and counting.

Email me if you'd like the name of the company.

arebelspy

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2014, 07:18:56 PM »
I've got a few turnkey rentals and I'd say the biggest success factor is picking the most reputable company you can find.

Heck yes.  I've not yet found a good one though that fits my criteria, and I've talked to a number.  =/

I know another investor on here that I've talked real estate with over email and phone calls, and he's looked quite a bit into turn key (more than I have, I think) and come to the same conclusion.

And then I read blogs like FIFighter who uses turn key and am pretty "meh" on his results, so I haven't yet gone that route.

Email me if you'd like the name of the company.

Please do post your company, I'd love to know.  :)

I'd also love to hear more about your results.  What have you purchased, and where?  How has your vacancy rate been?  What about late payments/evictions?

I'm sure there are a lot of people here interested in turn key, myself included, if it is done well.  That's just the rare exception, so if you've found the unicorn and are willing to share, and want to give the company you like a little more business, please do.  :)
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Ian

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2014, 12:50:29 AM »
And then I read blogs like FIFighter who uses turn key and am pretty "meh" on his results, so I haven't yet gone that route.
Do you think lower results are inevitable if you want to be relatively uninvolved, or do you think they're meh compared to comparable options you know of? Outside of exceptional examples like a unicorn turnkey, I mean.

I ask because while I like the idea of diversifying into real estate, the idea of having to talk to tenants sounds worse than work to me.

arebelspy

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2014, 01:22:43 AM »
And then I read blogs like FIFighter who uses turn key and am pretty "meh" on his results, so I haven't yet gone that route.
Do you think lower results are inevitable if you want to be relatively uninvolved, or do you think they're meh compared to comparable options you know of? Outside of exceptional examples like a unicorn turnkey, I mean.

Like I said, I haven't yet found a good turnkey company, so I can't compare apples to apples, but they don't excite me when compared to other ways of investing in real estate (some of which are more active than turnkey, some of which are more passive).

Absolutely lower results happen when you want to outsource everything, make it more passive, etc.  But I think there are better ways than the turn key companies I'm familiar with and/or have spoken to. 

I love the idea - I just hate the execution.  :)

I ask because while I like the idea of diversifying into real estate, the idea of having to talk to tenants sounds worse than work to me.

You don't need a turnkey company to not talk to tenants, just a property manager.  The latter comes with the former, but the former is not necessary for the latter.
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JayKay

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2014, 11:53:05 AM »
Hi everyone. So the company I've been using is Memphis Invest.  I've been out to visit them a couple of times already and feel very comfortable recommending them.

The properties I bought were all outside of the downtown Memphis area, in the suburbs and all of them were in desirable areas.  (I've confirmed this by talking with locals)  The prices were all in the 80-100k range and rented for about 1% of purchase price.  (E.g. My most expensive property, which was 99k, is renting for about 1050.)  Note though that the prices have gone up since I bought, so the returns are now a little lower.  But that's across the board, I think.

The insurance costs were not over-the-top compared to other areas (I'm looking at you, Cleveland!) and neither are the taxes. They used an "assessed value" method of taxation, so your assessed value be higher than the price you've purchased.   In some of the neighborhoods, there is also a city tax.  One of my properties has that.

All of the places cashflow about $300 / month after PITI (25% down) and mgt fees (9% of gross)

There are two things that are not optimal about this area, though.

First, the prices are low, under 100k usually.  This means your mortgage slots will quickly be eaten up without much of a boost in DTI.  Low amount mortgages also means that lenders really are not as enthused to work with you and it's more expensive to get the loans.  I'm running out of headroom, so I'm trying to borrow more under one slot with my latest purchases.  This means I really can't afford to get smaller loans anymore.

Secondly, there are a lot of older properties over there.  I do have one from the 50s, my oldest, and in retrospect, I should have waited to get one from at least the 80s or better.  Luckily, though, MemphisInvest often does replace furnaces, hot water heaters, etc. before they sell to you, so there's a lot of preventative fixes.  And, because they do so much business, they would be able to do it more cheaply than if I hired a contractor myself.  2 years into it, and no maintenance problems on any of my homes.  (One note: MI has recently broke ground on a new development, so they are getting into brand-new rentals too. )  I did hire an inspector for all the places and he had nothing but good things to say about their renovations, especially compared to other turnkeys.

As for vacancies and late payments, no vacancies yet.  I really like MI's prop mgt. arm.  MI usually does 2 year leases but they tell me most people end up staying for about 3.  Vacancies are by far the biggest cost to landlords and from what I've heard from others, they've re-tenanted places of others in less than 30 days.  (Part of that I think is that they really only buy in top areas, so it's much easier for them to rent.  But, they are also really aggressive when it comes to re-tenanting)

I have had a couple of partial rent payments.  This was communicated with my by their customer service dept. and they really handled it well.  The next month everything was caught up.

I don't think it's really a "unicorn" to find a good turnkey.  But, if you have the time and desire to do everything yourself and are actually right there locally, turnkey is not a good option.  For me, though, I've done my own rehabs and although it was a fun project, ultimately it really was a waste of time and energy.  Most importantly, though, doing it yourself doesn't scale.  These REI projects are not for my health, they're all about how to quickly generate a solid passive income for FIRE.

Hope that helps!

arebelspy

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2014, 12:02:30 PM »
That was a great overview, thanks for taking the time!

Memphis Invest is one of the more solid ones I've heard about, and I've spoken with them and they also have better customer service than most.  Plus they're established, not fly-by-night, so they know what they're doing and will probably be around five years from now.  Another point in their favor.

I'd even go so far as to say that if I had to invest in a Turn Key company today, without any more research, they're the ones I'd go with*.

The biggest downside, to me, is the returns.  Properties can barely meet the 1% rule in a place with low taxes and low insurance, and you'll be okay.  If you are barely meeting the 1% rule in a place like Texas (where they have decently high of both), you're not doing so well.

Personally I'd shoot for much closer to 1.4% to actually get a double digit cash (10%+) on cash return, and I just don't see them offering that.

If you're okay with a lower return, say, 5-7%**, they're not a bad way to go.


* Luckily that's not the situation, I can, a do, look for better options.  But they aren't as terrible as most turn key companies, from what I understand and have heard.
** This is over the long run.  The fact that you've had no repairs in the last two years and have gotten 15% isn't what I'm talking about. :)

EDIT: Just pulled up a spreadsheet they sent me last year on an example property in Dallas.  They, of course, have the return as 8% with cash, 17% leveraged.  The problem is they have expenses at only 32% of gross rents, and the place has super high taxes.  They have no maintenance in there, no vacancy, no repairs whatsoever, let alone a CapEx reserve.  I'd expect the expenses to be over 50%, given the high taxes.  Given that, when I run the numbers, it looks more like a 5% return, maybe 6% max (perhaps a bit more leveraged, but not much, since your cost of money on an investment property given today's rates will be around that number).  Like I said, the numbers just don't excite me.

EDIT 2: Also please don't take my disagreeing with you as a negative thing - I really do appreciate you being willing to post and share.  :)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 12:12:09 PM by arebelspy »
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JayKay

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2014, 01:31:22 PM »
I'm glad you found it helpful.  Yes, they're famous for their customer service and are even used as an example in a recent business study / customer service book.

I guess I'm not so concerned with repairs (though I'm trying to reduce that now by buying new homes now).  They'll always be a factor.  But many studies have shown that vacancies are the number 1 reason by far for financial loss in rentals.  And the better the area, the less time it takes to fill a vacancy.

From what I've seen, MI tries to hit that sweet spot; they buy in the best areas they can that still gives you reasonable cashflow.  So while immediate returns may be a little lower than in a less desirable area, "location, location, location" will always help you out.  I'm betting that this strategy gives better returns long-term.   :)

That's why I'm usually pretty suspicious of properties that don't come in at about 1%.  The best advice I've been given over the years is that "a cheap deal is not the same as a good deal".

But, YMMV.  There's lots of people that like the huge COC returns, it can be impressive.

How big of a part does rental income factor in to your retirement plan?

arebelspy

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2014, 01:48:53 PM »
How big of a part does rental income factor in to your retirement plan?

Pretty much 100%.  I plan to FIRE with about 65-70k net rental income (using conservative estimates for expenses/vacancies/putting money away for CapEx, etc.), and spend about 45k, but that's up in the air.  I'll save the rest.  I'll also, of course, have the principal paydown on the ones with mortgages, and the appreciation on all of them, leveraged or not.  So I expect a healthy "savings" rate in FIRE.  I plan to have only ~100k in equities (stock index funds) when I FIRE, but all my excess cash in FIRE will be towards expanding that portfolio for diversification purposes.

I posted more about my financial goals here.
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johnhenry

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2014, 02:13:31 PM »
Welcome, JayKay.  Glad to see another RE investor on the forum.

Quote
First, the prices are low, under 100k usually.  This means your mortgage slots will quickly be eaten up without much of a boost in DTI.  Low amount mortgages also means that lenders really are not as enthused to work with you and it's more expensive to get the loans.  I'm running out of headroom, so I'm trying to borrow more under one slot with my latest purchases.  This means I really can't afford to get smaller loans anymore.

Do you mind to give some sample numbers on your closing costs and rates?  You say they are expensive.  Just wondering what that means.  :)

I invest in small midwest cities where $100K price tag is not so low.  Spacious, luxury pads in this area rent for $1200-$1400.  It would be impossible to find a $100K place that commaned $1000/mo in this region.   But it's possible to buy places in the $40-60K range that rent for $600-$800/mo.  $100K will buy WAY more house here than it will in Memphis. I'm guessing that $100K will buy way more house in Memphis than where you live??

I work with several local/regional banks and credit unions.  The highest closing costs I've paid is under $1100.  Average is $750-800. And they don't have any problem loaning me 80-85% on homes in the $40-$60K range.


JayKay

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2014, 03:22:19 PM »
Hi John

Well, for closing costs, there's a bit of a story there.  If everything were to have gone correctly, I would have paid 1500 just for each loan, plus more money for all of the title transfer fees, etc.  However, the lender dropped the ball quite badly.  I raised quite a bit of hell with them, so they waived the fees for two of the loans.  And, if I recall correctly, I've paid more for similar loans in California.

This is all just anecdotal, but every loan I've done under 100k, I've always had issues with.  (And I've done quite a few at this point)  Either it was more expensive or mishandled or the lenders actually cried to me about how they couldn't make money or whatever.  Every single one.  And every loan that was over 100k was super-smooth.  Coincidence?  I don't know.  But none of them were with a credit union, it was all mortgage brokers.  I'm just guessing that they don't make as much money with the smaller loans, so that's why I got such bad service.

As for 100k, that's also not so low in Memphis.  It does buy a very nice home in a nice part of town.  But, in the area I actually live, 100k will literally not buy you anything.  As in zero listings.  (Well, not exactly true - my wife is helping a flipper right now close on a completely unlivable, actual-rat-infested, fire-damaged wreck for $75k.  Last I heard, the flipper was offering daily burnt sacrifices of old MLS printouts to thank the RE Gods for his amazing luck.)  However, there was a time during the big downturn where you could get a condo in the 70s in a slightly sketchy part of town.

I'm always super-jelly of people in the midwest and midsouth just because of the costs out here.  About once a month I think about moving.  Just with the amount of rental income I already have, I figure I could completely retire in some sort of reasonable fashion.  But, I'd be away from friends and family.  And, the even bigger question comes up: what would I do with myself?

As much as I talk a good game about how I'm going to FIRE "absolutely immediately right away soon", I'm somewhat skeptical that it'll make things better.  But, my thought is that there's no harm in trying it out.  So, I try to keep saving and investing.


johnhenry

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2014, 04:08:09 PM »
Quote
Well, for closing costs, there's a bit of a story there.  If everything were to have gone correctly, I would have paid 1500 just for each loan, plus more money for all of the title transfer fees, etc.  However, the lender dropped the ball quite badly.  I raised quite a bit of hell with them, so they waived the fees for two of the loans.  And, if I recall correctly, I've paid more for similar loans in California.

That is high.  I do have one fun story that I like to tell.  This deal was kind of the perfect storm of luck that left me with very low closing costs and the highest cash on cash return I've ever managed.

I bought a place for $45K that was on the books with the PVA office for $55.5K.  The previous owner bought it for that a couple years before.  To my surprise, my bank told me that they were willing to loan me up to 80% of the appraised value or current PVA value.  But they also told me, since the PVA value was higher than the purchase price, they did not require me to get (pay for) an appraisal!!  They only required me to put $600 down and loaned me $44,400 to buy a place for $45K.

So I skipped the appraisal.

Closing costs were
-  85.00   - loan origination fee
-  20.00   - flood certification
-220.57   - lender's title insurance
-  50.00   - government recording fee
======
375.57    - total closing costs  (would have been $250 - 350 higher if they'd required the appraisal)

+ 600.00 - downpayment
-    12.4   - settlement credit from sellers for taxes paid
-    94.5   - settlement credit from sellers for taxes paid
========
868.67    - was my total out of pocket cost for this deal.

Since I had already written a $1000 escrow check when the contract was signed, I wound up getting back $131.33 at closing!!  It felt pretty weird to walk out of the bank with keys to the house and a check.

Because of the low amount required out of pocket... my actual cash-on-cash return for that place is around 296%.  Certainly an anomaly, but a fun story to tell for someone who loves cash flow.

Johnny Aloha

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2014, 04:21:03 PM »
Just wanted to add my 2 cents on the turnkey discussion, since I've looked into a fair number.

I agree that Memphis Invest is the most reputable, has the best customer service, and pretty solid returns (for a TK company).  On the other end of the spectrum, I've also come across brand new realtor who advertise their services of finding a foreclosure, managing the renovation, and placing a tenant for you.  And they have no money in the deal. 

The other major operators I've looked into are Norada Real Estate, Pinnacle Investment Properties, Texas Turnkey, and even Hipster investment (before I knew better).  There are plenty of others, including in Memphis.  If you go this route, make sure you vet the operator thoroughly and the deal even harder.  Get an appraisal if you are paying cash, because often these will be 3-10% over market value.  And talk to an independant prop managmenet company to verify rental comps.

Of those listed above, only Texas Turnkey was a principal.  All other were marketers / brokers, which adds another layer of profit that the buyer pays for. 

I was impressed with Norada, mainly because of the communication and quick response.  He is marketing deals in many areas of the country, so if you are looking for conveneince it's a one stop shop where you can buy Dallas and Indy for mix of quality and cash flow.  I found the deals to be average.  He was marketing some of the same properties as Memphis Invest at one point, so they must be working with some of the same people in TX.  I have seen some issues with his deals from biggerpockets users though.

Pinnacle Investments seem to provide better cash flow deals, and they price the house so it meets most lender's $50k requirements - so around $65k.  A recent deal was $65k purchase $950 income.  They seem to be a reputable dealer, but if the deal is too good to be true I think it is.

Hipster investments - I have been shocked (and entertained) at the lack of knowledge and would never purchase with them.  My opinion of course.

Texas Turnkey seems pretty legit, and had some pretty standard Texas deals - meaning cash on cash in the 4-7% range after some maintenance and vacancy reserve.  In Texas, be aware that foundation repairs are standard, property taxes and insurance are high.  The only way to get decent deals in TX is with heavy networking ... and even now the local investors are settling for base hits instead of doubles or triples.  The market is white hot there.

I haven't bought turn key yet because I've been working for higher returns.  That might change though, and if you I'd probably go with MI because I know several others who are very happy with them.

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2014, 05:09:23 PM »
You don't need a turnkey company to not talk to tenants, just a property manager.  The latter comes with the former, but the former is not necessary for the latter.
Exactly what I was looking for here. I'd slowly conflated these two in my head, so now I can do more research properly.

Quote from: johnhenry
I work with several local/regional banks and credit unions.  The highest closing costs I've paid is under $1100.  Average is $750-800. And they don't have any problem loaning me 80-85% on homes in the $40-$60K range.
I'm assuming that you're investing directly and that it would be hard to get loans from outside these markets - or are you actually using a turnkey-like service to buy these?

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2014, 08:53:32 AM »
Quote from: johnhenry
I work with several local/regional banks and credit unions.  The highest closing costs I've paid is under $1100.  Average is $750-800. And they don't have any problem loaning me 80-85% on homes in the $40-$60K range.
I'm assuming that you're investing directly and that it would be hard to get loans from outside these markets - or are you actually using a turnkey-like service to buy these?
[/quote]

Yes, I invest directly with no turnkey service or property manager involved.  I'm not sure how hard/expensive it would be to get loans from outside my local/regional market.   I've heard others mention high closing costs.  I was curious to find out more about how they were financing.

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2014, 09:09:35 AM »
Any company called Hipster Investments is probably not business oriented.  If you read the principal's articles on Bigger Pockets, the lack of basic knowledge is apparent.

Memphis seems to have a high concentration of these companies.  Coincidentally, the principal of Memphis Invest was on a local radio program yesterday afternoon.  He certainly had the important talking points down.  He was very clear about the importance of property management.

Correctly done, a turn key company could make owning real estate more passive.  But you will pay for the service.


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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2014, 10:50:08 AM »
I laughed at the Hipster Investment comments; Ali Boone has been a joke before at our local BP meetups.  Many are convinced she doesn't actually invest in real estate herself, because two turn key properties she bought initially, then quit her job to get into shilling to try and make a commission from referring other people to turn key companies.

I think she means well (but that may be being generous), she just lacks a lot of knowledge.  The slide from someone like Marty Boardman and Jeff Brown, both of whom used to write a LOT on BP, and knew a ton, to brand new people like her has been quite stark.  I'd rather they put out one good article every other day than 3 mediocre ones every day.  Oh well.  Still a lot of knowledge on their site (J Scott in particular comes to mind), there's just some authors to avoid, especially the ones pitching stuff.

Thanks for the input, Johnny Aloha, confirms my thoughts exactly. Especially the final conclusion:
Quote
I haven't bought turn key yet because I've been working for higher returns.

I'll keep looking, but not hopeful.

Essentially since the turn key companies CAN sell them for around 1% rent to purchase, they will.  Even if the numbers are better in that particular area, they just jack up the price and take that as extra profit.  As long as they can show a double-digit return for a 1% rule property (by not including expenses, understating vacancy, etc.) then those who lack proper knowledge will buy from them.  So even if they could sell a property cheaper, so that it was 1.5% (or whatever) rent to purchase price ratio (which would offer a true double digit return, and their funky math would show it as over 20%), why NOT jack up the price, such that the rent to price ratio is now only 1%, it shows double digit returns with their incorrect math, and you can pass it off on some sucker?

It's unfortunate, but that seems to be the case - every time turn key companies jack up the price so it shows double digit returns with their math, but it gives them a higher return and is a true 5-6%er, and just not worth it.  C'est la vie.
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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2014, 10:59:26 AM »
Jeff still writes for them, but he really has not expanded his repertoire much.  Marty is off to flip in Milwaukie.  Go figure.  I also would like to hear again from the guy that bought all the properties in Fresno and keeps his Silicon Valley job.  He was looking for investors to borrow from at fairly high rates a couple of years back.  He sold all his single family before the meltdown and bought apartments IIRC.  Then he got back in and picked up a decent portfolio of fix-up buy and holds in 2009-2011.  Last I heard, he was thinking 2015-2016 as the next selling window.

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2014, 12:25:23 PM »
It's unfortunate, but that seems to be the case - every time turn key companies jack up the price so it shows double digit returns with their math, but it gives them a higher return and is a true 5-6%er, and just not worth it.  C'est la vie.

This seemed to be the case with the Turn Key that kicked off this discussion (JWB Investments). All projections had ZERO maint and vacancy. I was mostly impressed with the team members I met, but this propping up of the returns felt very dishonest.

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2014, 02:18:42 PM »
Quote
Essentially since the turn key companies CAN sell them for around 1% rent to purchase, they will.  Even if the numbers are better in that particular area, they just jack up the price and take that as extra profit.  As long as they can show a double-digit return for a 1% rule property (by not including expenses, understating vacancy, etc.) then those who lack proper knowledge will buy from them.  So even if they could sell a property cheaper, so that it was 1.5% (or whatever) rent to purchase price ratio (which would offer a true double digit return, and their funky math would show it as over 20%), why NOT jack up the price, such that the rent to price ratio is now only 1%, it shows double digit returns with their incorrect math, and you can pass it off on some sucker?

This is the big thing I have against turn key operators.  I understand that rehabbers are doing a service and adding value and should get paid.  I don't understand why somebody that is a 'turn key' operation gets to do the same rehab (benefit of the doubt) but gets to sell it for more than the market price the rehabber gets.  They get the price because they 'sucker' people into paying it.

Taking the example of a $100k property that will rent for $1k/month or 1%.  That sounds like a decent return.  But if the local market is 1.1%, that puts the market value at $91k.  1.2% and the market value is really $83k.  1.5% is a $67k property.  Or what if it's in a really bad part of town and you're looking at 2% or more?  Tenths of a percent don't sound like much until you translate it into dollars.  That's a lot of money to give up right at the start.  What if land lording doesn't work out for you?  Your $100k purchase is only worth $91k AND you will most likely have to pay a realtor 6% turning your $100k into $85k.  That doesn't include any losses, repairs or holding costs.  That also doesn't include market dynamics--there may be many people looking to buy an investment property for $60k to rehab for $20k into but fewer looking to buy a completed investment property for $80k-$85k (that's my market right now, rehabs selling quick but finished 2-4 families sitting a long time).  Will it actually sell for $85k 'market price'?  Considering that most turn key properties I've seen are of the cash flow variety and not appreciation focused, the 20% appreciation needed to break even from paying too much at the beginning could be a decade or longer wait.  That's why I think it's much better to buy a rehabbed property at market value and find a PM on your own if you want to go this route.  You're much more likely to not overpay this way.

BP is a great source of information but I agree you do have to watch out for who you listen to.  Last winter someone came into my market from out of state by purchasing nearly 30 homes in a single package with seller financing and is now offering himself as an expert in my market.  He was so excited and proud of himself that I didn't have the heart to tell him that the package had been marketed to local investors for nearly a year with no takers for the price before he bought it :-(  Follow BP long enough and you will find out who is the experts that share information and who is there to separate people from their $$.

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2014, 05:54:46 PM »
Great info here about the risks and flaws of the turnkey model as well as the evolution of the BiggerPockets site, which I've only recently discovered. I'm in the larval stage of learning about cap rates and such, so at this point even the basic information is very useful to me. The polished slickness of BiggerPockets in general does make me a little wary. Clearly money is being made. But I also see that the forums are full of knowledgeable people who are there because they love what they're doing.

I've been looking at Cleveland as a possible market...and that was before LeBron announced he was returning to the Cavs. Anyone here invest in Cleveland?

I did see one turnkey duplex in Cleveland that intrigued me, even though the asking price might be high for the area. (To be clear, I'm not ready to buy this or any other place yet.) My rough math showed a possible cash-on-cash return of 24%. Holton Wise, the turnkey company, offers its own numbers here. I'd be curious to know what kind of red flags might appear for my more knowledgeable peers here. The street looks nice and the unit is close to an urban farm that used to be a vacant lot. I know you have to be careful in Cleveland about neighborhoods. I think I read on BiggerPockets that Holton Wise charges significantly higher-than-average management fees. Apart from that and the high asking price (I think comparable properties would be more like $70K), I'm not sure what the other red flags might be.

Zoot Allures

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2014, 06:03:03 PM »
Any company called Hipster Investments is probably not business oriented.

Not to mention that actively identifying yourself as a hipster is not a very hip thing to do.

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2014, 09:38:45 PM »
Some of those risks are going to happen no matter what. If I decide to bail, I am paying the real estate agent no matter how I acquired the property. If I buy a property fro 60k and sink 20k in, the people looking for 60k properties will not be interested.

I would be very concerned about buying because as you say, you have to know the value of the property. Overpay by 10% at the start, and your returns will be subpar. And if I had the knowledge to know the price, I wouldn't really need them.  The question then is using them better than the alternatives of buying reits or ETFs.  You would have to run your numbers. And then try and figure out what the risk is like.

Quote
Essentially since the turn key companies CAN sell them for around 1% rent to purchase, they will.  Even if the numbers are better in that particular area, they just jack up the price and take that as extra profit.  As long as they can show a double-digit return for a 1% rule property (by not including expenses, understating vacancy, etc.) then those who lack proper knowledge will buy from them.  So even if they could sell a property cheaper, so that it was 1.5% (or whatever) rent to purchase price ratio (which would offer a true double digit return, and their funky math would show it as over 20%), why NOT jack up the price, such that the rent to price ratio is now only 1%, it shows double digit returns with their incorrect math, and you can pass it off on some sucker?

This is the big thing I have against turn key operators.  I understand that rehabbers are doing a service and adding value and should get paid.  I don't understand why somebody that is a 'turn key' operation gets to do the same rehab (benefit of the doubt) but gets to sell it for more than the market price the rehabber gets.  They get the price because they 'sucker' people into paying it.

Taking the example of a $100k property that will rent for $1k/month or 1%.  That sounds like a decent return.  But if the local market is 1.1%, that puts the market value at $91k.  1.2% and the market value is really $83k.  1.5% is a $67k property.  Or what if it's in a really bad part of town and you're looking at 2% or more?  Tenths of a percent don't sound like much until you translate it into dollars.  That's a lot of money to give up right at the start.  What if land lording doesn't work out for you?  Your $100k purchase is only worth $91k AND you will most likely have to pay a realtor 6% turning your $100k into $85k.  That doesn't include any losses, repairs or holding costs.  That also doesn't include market dynamics--there may be many people looking to buy an investment property for $60k to rehab for $20k into but fewer looking to buy a completed investment property for $80k-$85k (that's my market right now, rehabs selling quick but finished 2-4 families sitting a long time).  Will it actually sell for $85k 'market price'?  Considering that most turn key properties I've seen are of the cash flow variety and not appreciation focused, the 20% appreciation needed to break even from paying too much at the beginning could be a decade or longer wait.  That's why I think it's much better to buy a rehabbed property at market value and find a PM on your own if you want to go this route.  You're much more likely to not overpay this way.

BP is a great source of information but I agree you do have to watch out for who you listen to.  Last winter someone came into my market from out of state by purchasing nearly 30 homes in a single package with seller financing and is now offering himself as an expert in my market.  He was so excited and proud of himself that I didn't have the heart to tell him that the package had been marketed to local investors for nearly a year with no takers for the price before he bought it :-(  Follow BP long enough and you will find out who is the experts that share information and who is there to separate people from their $$.

JoJoP

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2014, 08:30:23 PM »
Great info here about the risks and flaws of the turnkey model <snip>

I did see one turnkey duplex in Cleveland that intrigued me, even though the asking price might be high for the area. (To be clear, I'm not ready to buy this or any other place yet.) My rough math showed a possible cash-on-cash return of 24%. Holton Wise, the turnkey company, offers its own numbers here. I'd be curious to know what kind of red flags might appear for my more knowledgeable peers here. The street looks nice and the unit is close to an urban farm that used to be a vacant lot. I know you have to be careful in Cleveland about neighborhoods. I think I read on BiggerPockets that Holton Wise charges significantly higher-than-average management fees. Apart from that and the high asking price (I think comparable properties would be more like $70K), I'm not sure what the other red flags might be.

I think the consensus among many investors is that your money is made going in.   If you over pay, that pretty much guarantees an instant loss, not gain.    My strategy is to buy anything I can make a quick $25-30,000 on, or 10%, if the property is on the lower end.  I don't necessarily resell them, as my strategy is more buy and hold, but if I come in at 10% or 25K under value, then I enter the transaction with built in equity.  These types of margins happen all the time in my area.  Higher priced homes, of course, have a bigger potential for a quick 25K.   

I did make one exception, which was to overpay on a 97K condo, which I would have valued on the day of COE at more like 92-95K.   In this case, I already had it rented for a small cash flow, with the tenant moving in on the day escrow closed.  This meant no down time at all on the unit, and no repairs, which had a hard cash value to me that offset the slightly higher price.   The other reason to buy this unit is that my area has a very high demand and limited supply of affordable housing, so the demand to purchase these units far exceeds the supply.   Since I buy and hold, paying a couple of grand in this case was worth it to assure that my offer was accepted in a multiple offer situation. 

Zoot Allures

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2014, 09:37:55 PM »
I think the consensus among many investors is that your money is made going in. 

A very handy rule of thumb, for the reasons you mentioned. Thanks Jill. I can see the foolishness and risk in getting seduced by cash flow and not doing due diligence on the local market. An investor who needs to sell a property for whatever reason needs to be able to recoup at least what he or she paid for it, and much more preferably make a profit. I guess this is why rehab is such a common first step in the buy-and-hold process, because that's where the bargains are.

Johnny Aloha

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2014, 12:30:57 AM »
Great info here about the risks and flaws of the turnkey model as well as the evolution of the BiggerPockets site, which I've only recently discovered. I'm in the larval stage of learning about cap rates and such, so at this point even the basic information is very useful to me. The polished slickness of BiggerPockets in general does make me a little wary. Clearly money is being made. But I also see that the forums are full of knowledgeable people who are there because they love what they're doing.

I've been looking at Cleveland as a possible market...and that was before LeBron announced he was returning to the Cavs. Anyone here invest in Cleveland?

I did see one turnkey duplex in Cleveland that intrigued me, even though the asking price might be high for the area. (To be clear, I'm not ready to buy this or any other place yet.) My rough math showed a possible cash-on-cash return of 24%. Holton Wise, the turnkey company, offers its own numbers here. I'd be curious to know what kind of red flags might appear for my more knowledgeable peers here. The street looks nice and the unit is close to an urban farm that used to be a vacant lot. I know you have to be careful in Cleveland about neighborhoods. I think I read on BiggerPockets that Holton Wise charges significantly higher-than-average management fees. Apart from that and the high asking price (I think comparable properties would be more like $70K), I'm not sure what the other red flags might be.

I see by your profile you are in the Pacific Northwest.  The only way for you to be successful in Cleveland (or any cash flow market in general) is to partner with a local, experienced, and knowledgable investor.  The local guys get all the good deals after the out of town folks lose their shirt. 

Of course this is on a % basis, because if you buy a turnkey duplex for $90k, but it's really worth $60-65k, it probably won't end your investing career if/when you sell.  But it will make you think twice about investing in the area!




Zoot Allures

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2014, 11:16:39 AM »
I see by your profile you are in the Pacific Northwest.  The only way for you to be successful in Cleveland (or any cash flow market in general) is to partner with a local, experienced, and knowledgable investor.  The local guys get all the good deals after the out of town folks lose their shirt. 

Of course this is on a % basis, because if you buy a turnkey duplex for $90k, but it's really worth $60-65k, it probably won't end your investing career if/when you sell.  But it will make you think twice about investing in the area!

I don't think arebelspy is partnering with local investors in the markets he buys in, and he seems to be doing well. But that's with a ton of due diligence and careful networking on his part, I fully realize.

I found an extensive discussion on BiggerPockets about one investor's "turkey disaster." Interesting typo. In any case, it's an informative read for anyone wondering what "the catch" might be when buying from a turnkey provider...or wondering what "turnkey" even means.

http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/311/topics/113342-my-turkey-disaster

Bobberth

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2014, 02:59:37 PM »
Quote
I did see one turnkey duplex in Cleveland that intrigued me, even though the asking price might be high for the area. (To be clear, I'm not ready to buy this or any other place yet.) My rough math showed a possible cash-on-cash return of 24%. Holton Wise, the turnkey company, offers its own numbers here. I'd be curious to know what kind of red flags might appear for my more knowledgeable peers here. The street looks nice and the unit is close to an urban farm that used to be a vacant lot. I know you have to be careful in Cleveland about neighborhoods.

Knowing nothing of Cleveland, but living in an urban area with neighborhoods to be careful about, my initial thoughts are:
What is the actual market value if a turnkey operator is offering it for sale (most likely at a markup) at 24% CoC?  Make sure you're not grossly overpaying.  Many people would jump at 10%-15% CoC, why is this one 24%-or are you doing the math wrong :-)

What is the area like if there is an empty lot(s) that could be turned into an urban farm?  Houses burn and fall down, but if it was in a higher demand area somebody would have built on the lot or if it was in a higher quality home owner area a neighbor would have purchased it for an extra large yard.  Make sure you study the area in depth.  There are many houses in my metro area that 'look nice' but are in very undesirable areas.

Johnny Aloha

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2014, 03:53:04 PM »
I don't think arebelspy is partnering with local investors in the markets he buys in, and he seems to be doing well.

He's on a whole different level!

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2014, 10:17:47 PM »
It's just good to do as much research as you can, without getting paralyzed by too many decisions/choices. 

Do you folks know about www.rentometer.com ?   It's a tool I use a lot for rental rate research.  It's quick and easy, and (somehow) it knows what a number of homes in any given area are renting for.   Give it a try and let me know if it is helpful. 

(I am not affiliated in any way.)

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2014, 09:16:54 AM »
My first real post here at MMM, hello all.

I'm not a huge fan of turnkey.  After speaking with a few last year, I went the opposite route and setup my own "team" in Northern Ohio. 

Eight months later, I have (3) free & clear single family properties, in the best local school district, punching out 15% cash on cash annually (using 50% rule).  Not to mention that I'm coming in around 75% of ARV after completing reno.

I'm not sure why more people don't take ownership and setup everything for themselves.  Hop on a plane, meet people, setup your primary team, your back-up team, your secondary back-up team and get ready to learn.

Throwing your eggs into one basket, purchasing homes at market value (or above!) and trusting one company to take care of you sounds crazy to me.  Long distance land lording has substantial risk.  Don't subcontract that risk ownership out.  Own it.

I'm gearing up to go after another (7) throughout 2015.  I'll reevaluate at 10 properties, probably PM arebelspy and get some advice...and then decide on a path forward. 

I'm from Seattle originally but am managing everything from Northern BC, working 80+ hr weeks.  Up until 8 months ago, I had never owned more than a car.  If I can do it...

Reno #3 completed a few weeks back (photos below).  22k acquisition, 5k reno, 1k misc costs.  Rented at 700/mo.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 03:30:17 PM by sammybiker »

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2014, 05:05:32 PM »
Nice rehab!

I think we all know there's no free lunch. If the property turnkey company could find, rehab, and rent to decent tenants at a 2% rule, why the hell should they sell it to you?

Assuming some economies of scale, 40% costs vs 50, 2%  implies an unleveraged roi of 14.4%.

If that was real, and they could deliver a constant stream of such deals, they wouldn't need to sell to you. The institutions would take that all day and give them cheap leverage too.

when other people do work for you, they will need to get paid. But in this low yield environment,  there are people with cash looking for greedy returns. These are who the turnkeys are targeting.

Dress up an actual 6% return, and sell it for more than its actually worth in the market. Have the client with the money take all the risk, and make money
- by underpaying the seller
- by doing just good enough renovations
- by over charging the buyer
- by making sure that if something goes wrong ( vacancies, damages, evictions) you pay them to deal with it.

The client takes all the risk, they take a piece on every slice.

Heck, maybe the way to get out from a dud investment is to sell it to one of these guys....
- everytime the rent is paid, they take a cut

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2014, 10:51:10 PM »
My first real post here at MMM, hello all.

I'm not a huge fan of turnkey.  After speaking with a few last year, I went the opposite route and setup my own "team" in Northern Ohio. 

Eight months later, I have (3) free & clear single family properties, in the best local school district, punching out 15% cash on cash annually (using 50% rule).  Not to mention that I'm coming in around 75% of ARV after completing reno.

I'm not sure why more people don't take ownership and setup everything for themselves.  Hop on a plane, meet people, setup your primary team, your back-up team, your secondary back-up team and get ready to learn.

Throwing your eggs into one basket, purchasing homes at market value (or above!) and trusting one company to take care of you sounds crazy to me.  Long distance land lording has substantial risk.  Don't subcontract that risk ownership out.  Own it.

I'm gearing up to go after another (7) throughout 2015.  I'll reevaluate at 10 properties, probably PM arebelspy and get some advice...and then decide on a path forward. 

I'm from Seattle originally but am managing everything from Northern BC, working 80+ hr weeks.  Up until 8 months ago, I had never owned more than a car.  If I can do it...

Reno #3 completed a few weeks back (photos below).  22k acquisition, 5k reno, 1k misc costs.  Rented at 700/mo.

Great post!  Would love to hear more about how you built your team, I bet you'd have a lot to add to this thread:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/real-estate-and-landlording/purchasing-real-estate-you've-never-seen/
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
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sammybiker

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    • Making 200k in equity in 6mo - Back down the rabbit hole, long distance RE
Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2014, 01:30:53 PM »
Thanks for the reply, arebelspy.  I read your thread awhile back and it's great to see what you're doing.  There is a lot negative feedback with out of state investing and while it should never be classified as passive or easy, it's doable...and the rewards, especially if you're priced out of your local markets (or they just don't make sense) are great.

Re: setting up my team

I scoped out the big players in my targeted area on BiggerPockets, connected with them and narrowed down the area I wanted to focus on as well as I could (identified the school district).  I then flew into town for a week, connected with the RE agent, other landlords, interviewed property management groups, looked at properties, etc.  I identified a local landlord that I really hit it off with and hired him out to project manage my renovations with contractors that I also met with and were already in place.

I left after that first trip (~6 days) with two properties under contract, one of wish I closed on.  I pursued and closed on property two about a month later (I had walked through during the initial trip).  I took a second trip about five months later in which I made an offer and ultimately closed on the third property.  I'll be making my third trip out in another couple of weeks just to check on the team and walk through some more properties.

I think only the first trip was absolutely necessary...but I enjoy being hands on, especially during this ramp up stage.

I split my properties between two property management groups.  I'm still unsure which I like better but it gives me choice in case one craps out.  Thus far, they have both been great.  I have a third property management group on the back burner that I really connected with in case my first two have issues.

The big take away...

I took out just about every "big player" I could find in the area for lunch/dinner/beers...I consider these folks friends now and I could (and have) asked them to check on items in certain cases (our 20 year record Winter this last 2013/2014 season).  I also pay all of my bills on time, pay above market for work and management fees and chase issues relentlessly when they appear.

Hope this helps.

My first real post here at MMM, hello all.

I'm not a huge fan of turnkey.  After speaking with a few last year, I went the opposite route and setup my own "team" in Northern Ohio. 

Eight months later, I have (3) free & clear single family properties, in the best local school district, punching out 15% cash on cash annually (using 50% rule).  Not to mention that I'm coming in around 75% of ARV after completing reno.

I'm not sure why more people don't take ownership and setup everything for themselves.  Hop on a plane, meet people, setup your primary team, your back-up team, your secondary back-up team and get ready to learn.

Throwing your eggs into one basket, purchasing homes at market value (or above!) and trusting one company to take care of you sounds crazy to me.  Long distance land lording has substantial risk.  Don't subcontract that risk ownership out.  Own it.

I'm gearing up to go after another (7) throughout 2015.  I'll reevaluate at 10 properties, probably PM arebelspy and get some advice...and then decide on a path forward. 

I'm from Seattle originally but am managing everything from Northern BC, working 80+ hr weeks.  Up until 8 months ago, I had never owned more than a car.  If I can do it...

Reno #3 completed a few weeks back (photos below).  22k acquisition, 5k reno, 1k misc costs.  Rented at 700/mo.

Great post!  Would love to hear more about how you built your team, I bet you'd have a lot to add to this thread:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/real-estate-and-landlording/purchasing-real-estate-you've-never-seen/

Blindsquirrel

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Re: Turn Key Rentals - Thoughts?
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2014, 07:39:06 PM »
Go the route of A Rebel Spy and Sammy Biker. The major price increase is when you go from dumpy trash filled foreclosure to freshly painted rental. A day or so heaping crap in a dumpster and a day with a paint sprayer will do wonders.