Author Topic: Tenant snow removal obligtions  (Read 2050 times)

Villanelle

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Tenant snow removal obligtions
« on: July 20, 2021, 09:59:41 AM »
I'm back with another "my landlords are terrible and cheap and clearly unprepared to own a rental property" question".

We have a deck with 2 sets of french doors going on to it.  Because our house is build into a small hill, you enter the main floor on ground level but exit it on the second floor (above the walk -out basement) so the deck is essentially on the 2nd floor, with a usable sitting area underneath it. 

There is very clear evidence of water damage around both sets of doors.  One set leads onto wood floors and the floors show discolored spots in the seams where clearly water got it.  The other set is over carpet, but the trim is in terribel shape.  One section of trim (at the corner) has a section about 3x5 that looks like it rotted out and was "replaced" with a large glob of spackle or putty of some kind.  It's painted but fairly obvious as it doesn't have the lines of the trim and is just a blob smoothed into the approximate shape of the trim.  Outside, you can see the rubber pieces that once sealed the bottom of the door are know wrinkled up, so that they only cover about 3/4 of the length od the doors and even that 3/4 is laregley unprotected because of the waves in the rubber.

IOW, water has been a problem in the past and surely things have only gotten worse.  When we moved in, we were told that the owners planned to do work out there this summer.  (I don't recall if replacing the doors was specifically mentioned, but that was certainly my impression.)

I jsut head from the PM.  "[The owners]  wanted me to mention that they will not be able to replace the french doors to the deck this year- they are extremely expensive.  When winter comes and if it snows they just ask that you make sure to shovel so that snow does not touch the doors because it could leak in and damage the carpet and wood floors"

So, the doors they know are not working properly and causing water leaks are "too expensive" and will not be replaced, so I need to shovel to eep snow away from the doors.  This means shoveling any build up of more than 2 inches (maybe less).

We will not use the deck in winter.  We don't have a dog to let out or any other reason we'd need a clear path.  I likely wouldn't shovel unless we had several feet of snow (making weight on an upper level deck a concern).  And I'm not interested in increased shoveling obligations (and what happens if we are away for more than a couple days and it snows?) just because the owners are too cheap to properly maintain their property.

Before I send off an email basically saying that I will keep an eye out and let them know if there are obvious signs of leaking but that if they want all snow shoveled away from the house--something well beyond basic requirements of a tenant--because heir doors aren't working properly, they should consider hiring a service of some kind, I'm wanting to understand what others feel is a reasonable expectation of a tenant.

Our lease says that snow removal is the obligation of the tenant.  Of course, that's a standard phrase and is generally understood to mean that I have to shovel the driveway and sideway, not that I have to remove essentially *ALL* snow from my deck.  I'm happy to be obligated for snow removal when it is snow that I feel needs to be removed (or as required by the city or HOA), but not on account of their refusal to place something clearly broken.

I feel it necessary to push back for 2 reasons.  First, I don't want them to try to hold me responsible for damage because I let snow touch the outer walls of the house, and second, this is a clear pattern with them.  They don't want to spend money and it becomes my problem and I want to draw a bit of a line in the, er... snow.  And also just because shoveling snow sucks and I don't feel like I should have to do it more often simply because they refuse to buy new doors, effectively pushing their issue off onto me.




therethere

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2021, 10:17:42 AM »
Your landlords sound like mine. We had a problem with an improperly installed back door which was never aligned or caulked. And they were trying to pin potential snow/water damage on us for not "making them aware of the poor door install previously." Not my job to supervise your contractors and their work. I'm not an inspector.

I would push back also, and in writing. Mainly so the clear cause of the water intrusion is written in email with all parties aware. But after one email I would just ignore it and pretend it didn't happen. They were made aware of a structural issue and are ignoring it. Not your problem.

FINate

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2021, 10:32:01 AM »
Yeah, they should just fix the door.

Before I send off an email basically saying that I will keep an eye out and let them know if there are obvious signs of leaking but that if they want all snow shoveled away from the house--something well beyond basic requirements of a tenant--because heir doors aren't working properly, they should consider hiring a service of some kind, I'm wanting to understand what others feel is a reasonable expectation of a tenant.

I would be careful with the above wording as it sounds like you're agreeing to monitor the problem for them. Instead, I would (in writing) re-communicate that the door is failing and is already in need of replacement, along with whatever hidden water damage, that the owners are aware of this, and that you'll do what you can to keep an eye on it but there's no guarantee that you'll catch problems.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2021, 10:47:56 AM »
How large of an area are you being asked to shovel?

Villanelle

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2021, 10:54:07 AM »
Yeah, they should just fix the door.

Before I send off an email basically saying that I will keep an eye out and let them know if there are obvious signs of leaking but that if they want all snow shoveled away from the house--something well beyond basic requirements of a tenant--because heir doors aren't working properly, they should consider hiring a service of some kind, I'm wanting to understand what others feel is a reasonable expectation of a tenant.

I would be careful with the above wording as it sounds like you're agreeing to monitor the problem for them. Instead, I would (in writing) re-communicate that the door is failing and is already in need of replacement, along with whatever hidden water damage, that the owners are aware of this, and that you'll do what you can to keep an eye on it but there's no guarantee that you'll catch problems.

Thanks for that and good point!  I will make sure to add the "there is no guarantee I will catch any problems" part to my message.  I may also take out the "keep an eye on it" part and just say that I will "report if I *happen* to notice* any additional damage". 

I've also taken a bunch of photos and videos of the damage and the visibly messed-up seals.  Much of this was in the original move-in inspection, but I hadn't included a photo of the seals outside (because we were anticipating replacement and because that's pretty clearly wear and tear on the house and not something a tenant would be responsible for, regardless of when it happened.  But I figure that documenting it prevents them from saying they didn't know how bad it was, and it can't hurt to get that in an email to the PM. (Though I already have the email from the PM saying they aren't replacing them because it's too expensive, which seems like it acknowledges that they are aware, but this makes it more explicitly clear.)

We just moved in April.  They could have sold after the last tenant moved out and profited about $150-200K (based on what Zillow says they paid in 2007).  I'm not sure why they continued to keep it as a rental when clearly they can't (or, I suspect, won't) pay for basic upkeep.  The same email that addresses the snow and doors is also going to include follow up from the plumber's visit yesterday, regarding a large water spot that has appeared on the ceiling.  It is almost certainly a roof leak as it is directly under where a wall of the second floor meets the roofline below of the first floor, so there is presumably flashing there.  And it makes sense as it appears to the be original roof so it is 23 years old.  I have little doubt they will either ignore this ("please keep an eye and let us know if it gets worse!" and/or do the cheapest fix possible.   During his inspection, the plumber also noted that the grout in the shower is in bad shape and several tiles are somewhat loose.   This is also after I had to get pretty assertive with them after 2 months of half our stove not working.  They refused to replace a 23 year old stove and as far as I can tell were pretty much stonewalling me.  Supposedly it was "waiting for a part" but once I basically said "I'm done waiting; get this done", suddenly the stove guy came and, without the part they were waiting for, made it work. 

All this to say, they should not be landlords and I don't know why they didn't take their massive profits in our insane market and walk away.   

Villanelle

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2021, 11:03:15 AM »
How large of an area are you being asked to shovel?

The entire deck is maybe 12x14?  I'm not sure how much of that I'd actually have to shovel to keep all snow from touching the house.  I guess that would depend in part on the depth of the snow.  But it's not so much the time or effort (though I'm not stoked about that) it would take as it is the responsibility/liability.  If I say, "sure, I'm happy to shovel a foot wide path in front of the doors every time it snows so that no snow touches the doors", then I have to do that.  If I miss a day and the doors leak, it's my fault.  If it's a heavy snow and I don't keep up with it by shoveling multiple times a day, that's on me.  If I'm traveling and it doesn't get done, I've failed to do what I agreed to and when that results in damage, that could presumably be my responsibility.

And I readily admit my reaction is colored by past (and other current) dealings with them.  They sort of used up all the grace I had, and have proven that they don't care about me as a tenant, or about their house.  So I'm not inclined to bend over backwards for them, or to care more about--and put more work and effort into--their house than they do.  And I'm not going to do anything the lets them pawn of damages caused by their cheapness on to me, and it seems like agreeing to keep "all snow off the doors" transfers the responsibility from them to me. 

If they want the deck shoveled more than can reasonably be expected of a tenant living in a properly maintained home, they are welcome to pay for that service.  And then, if it doesn't happen, the service is responsible for any damage. 

therethere

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2021, 11:05:44 AM »
I'd venture that they're keeping it for tax reasons. Our landlord has a very high salaried job and has told us he has no interest in selling. Even though it's worth 3x what he bought it for 10 years ago and he doesn't keep it up at all. It's actually amusing how similar your rental is. We had a roof leak that took 2-3 years to get fixed! They didn't believe us when we said it was leaking. This door issue we have has been going on since around 2016 or so.

Unless you're getting a screaming deal, I'd leave at your first opportunity.  It's obvious your landlord/PM does not have any interest in keeping the house habitable or even nice. As evidenced by how they prioritize and treat your repair requests. God forbid an emergency happen in the house, you will be SOL. Our furnace broke this winter and then the pipes froze. They were painfully slow in addressing the issue and we were out of the house living in a hotel room for 9 weeks! We basically had no recourse to get them to work faster or get us back in the unit despite incessant nagging. So they took their sweet time all while making us manage the construction (by default since no one from the PM company ever came over). Get out!!!
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 11:07:58 AM by therethere »

EricEng

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2021, 11:12:44 AM »
Shoving snow just from a door is like a 20 second job done in two swipes, don't shovel the entire patio unless wind regularly blows drifts up against the door.  That seems like a really miner ask for just one winter (sounds like replacing next year).  You spent more time writing this post than you would probably spend shoveling the door all winter.  It's only going to really matter once snow has stopped and it maybe starts to melt.  How many storms do you average a winter?

French doors are notorious for leaking, even when brand new.  They are super hard to seal.

therethere

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2021, 11:21:38 AM »
Shoving snow just from a door is like a 20 second job done in two swipes, don't shovel the entire patio unless wind regularly blows drifts up against the door.  That seems like a really miner ask for just one winter (sounds like replacing next year).  You spent more time writing this post than you would probably spend shoveling the door all winter.  It's only going to really matter once snow has stopped and it maybe starts to melt.  How many storms do you average a winter?

French doors are notorious for leaking, even when brand new.  They are super hard to seal.

It's not the time that's the problem. It's the liability. Why voluntarily take on liability that is not yours for no benefit? Especially when it is due to a cheap landlord? On top of that it's for a landlord that has pushed off repairs many times already and clearly does not have the tenant or the condition of the house as a priority. I see no reason, other than mutual good will, to accept (in writing) extra maintenance to take care of the landlord's property and investment.

With a landlord like this "next year" is always next year. It never actually comes unless something catastrophic happens or you threaten it uninhabitable. Free beer tomorrow anyone?

« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 11:24:12 AM by therethere »

pasadenafr

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2021, 11:29:30 AM »
I would be careful with the above wording as it sounds like you're agreeing to monitor the problem for them. Instead, I would (in writing) re-communicate that the door is failing and is already in need of replacement, along with whatever hidden water damage, that the owners are aware of this, and that you'll do what you can to keep an eye on it but there's no guarantee that you'll catch problems.

I would include the word "insurance" somewhere in there. Like "I will report if I *happen* to notice* any additional damage, so you can open a claim with your insurance". They won't, but that may make them move a little.

Shoving snow just from a door is like a 20 second job done in two swipes, don't shovel the entire patio unless wind regularly blows drifts up against the door.  That seems like a really miner ask for just one winter (sounds like replacing next year).  You spent more time writing this post than you would probably spend shoveling the door all winter.  It's only going to really matter once snow has stopped and it maybe starts to melt.  How many storms do you average a winter?

You're right, but accepting their request means they will try and push any liability to them if there are further damages.

Villanelle

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2021, 12:05:11 PM »
Shoving snow just from a door is like a 20 second job done in two swipes, don't shovel the entire patio unless wind regularly blows drifts up against the door.  That seems like a really miner ask for just one winter (sounds like replacing next year).  You spent more time writing this post than you would probably spend shoveling the door all winter.  It's only going to really matter once snow has stopped and it maybe starts to melt.  How many storms do you average a winter?

French doors are notorious for leaking, even when brand new.  They are super hard to seal.

I'm sure I will do this sometimes because I'm  decent human being who respects the property I'm renting (more so than, it seems, its owners do), and because more water damage also becomes a headache for me even if it is not my expense.  But I'm not going to agree to keeping all snow off the house.  If I'm out for 3-4 hours during a storm, that could happen.  If I travel for a long weekend, we could easily have far more snow that that.  So "tenant will shovel all snow away from doors" isn't a solution to their leaking doors, and I don't want to *commit* to it, even if I may frequently do it.  That's the issue for me--once I say, "sure, I'll keep snow off the doors", then when I don't because I'm out for the day or I'm traveling or maybe I'm just feeling lazy one day, I've breached the agreement.  Me shoveling should be a bonus, not a solution to the leak they know exists and are choosing not to fix.  I don't want them to count on it or feel I've committed to always keeping it that way, in case I can't.

Also, these doors are in *very* bad shape.  Here's a photo of the "seal", using that term very, very loosely, from the outside of one of the six door panels. So of course water is going to get in if snow sits up against this for even a short time. 
 
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 12:07:25 PM by Villanelle »

Villanelle

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2021, 03:52:13 PM »
I've crafted a message that says that if I do notice any damage, I'll let them know but of course there may be things I can't or don't see, and that it sounds like they are well aware the doors are failing and not watertight.  And that while I'm happy to do some more-frequent-than-I-otherwise-would shoveling**** as a courtesy sometimes, they shouldn't count on me always being able to remove snow to that 1-2" or less level.  Me shoveling more isn't a solution to their non-watertight doors and while I will pitch in sometimes to be helpful, I make no guarantees and want to make sure they aren't relying on my shoveling to keep snow off the door or protect their house.  I said that I don't want to make promises I cant keep, so they need to not consider this a solution to the leaks. 

****I added that because it's true and I likely will shovel more often due to this issue, and also because I'm trying to not sound entirely difficult.  It's a balance between goodwill and making sure they aren't pawning liability for leaks in doors that they know are leaky and need to be replaced.  I don't want them to be able to say, "oh, you were away for the weekend and it snowed 5 inches and the doors leaked and we told you they'd do that if snow touched them, so you owe us for new floors and rotted trim".  That's the key issue here--them setting it up so they can say that damage is my fault because they told me what to do to prevent it.  Happy(ish) to help out as I can, but I'm not going to firmly commit to never letting any snow touch the doors as that is not reasonable or in our lease. 

sailinlight

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2021, 06:14:32 PM »
I tell my tenants that if they want the snow removed, it's their responsibility. But if not removing the snow is causing water to leak unto the house I would be happy they told me about it, but not expect anything else from besides allowing access to the place to fix the underlying problem. Interior furnishings and structure shouldn't be damaged if it snows and no one is around to shovel. That's on the landlord.

PMJL34

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2021, 12:22:00 AM »
OP,

Clearly you are in the right. This is not your responsibility and you are right to push back.

BUT, let's be honest here. How much below market rent are you paying?

You can't pay below market rent and then expect the owner to maintain the property as if it was rented at market value (I mean they exist, but are rare). And if you are paying market rent, then you need to leave asap and find a better rental.

The picture is actually not evidence of anything, but according to your posts about stove burners and this in such a short time, you either need to get used to this owner or leave. Otherwise, you will be pissed off again and again. It's not worth it.

Best of luck!

former player

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2021, 03:06:29 AM »
If your tenancy agreement says you have agreed to remove snow and doesn't limit where, there is at least a case for the landlord to argue that it includes the deck.  That argument might not stick but their email "reminder", if you accept it to any degree then that strengthens their case that you need to remove snow from the deck and the argument then becomes the standard to which you are required to do it.

If you are not using the doors in winter can you run a line of duck tape along the bottom, perhaps with a flap of plastic, to keep the snow away from the door seal?

FINate

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2021, 09:59:55 AM »
IMO, the tenant's snow removal obligation is only that which is required by the city (sidewalks) and for general use/access of the property by the tenant. E.g. the tenant can't call the landlord up and demand that they plow the driveway so they can access the garage. Likewise, the tenant cannot claim breach of lease because it snowed 2' and they cannot use the deck... clear it yourself if you want to keep using it.

I don't think a reasonable person would read the snow removal obligation as a requirement for the tenant to compensate for deficiencies in the structure itself. Unless otherwise stated in the lease agreement, preventing water intrusion and overall weatherization is the responsibility of the landlord.

former player

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2021, 10:16:18 AM »
IMO, the tenant's snow removal obligation is only that which is required by the city (sidewalks) and for general use/access of the property by the tenant. E.g. the tenant can't call the landlord up and demand that they plow the driveway so they can access the garage. Likewise, the tenant cannot claim breach of lease because it snowed 2' and they cannot use the deck... clear it yourself if you want to keep using it.

I don't think a reasonable person would read the snow removal obligation as a requirement for the tenant to compensate for deficiencies in the structure itself. Unless otherwise stated in the lease agreement, preventing water intrusion and overall weatherization is the responsibility of the landlord.
The legal standard isn't "reasonable person" it's "real estate contract law".  A requirement in the lease for snow removal plus an email agreeing to snow removal on the deck so as to keep water out of the house (depending on circumstances, which will be arguable) is a contract.

Villanelle

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2021, 10:40:37 AM »
OP,

Clearly you are in the right. This is not your responsibility and you are right to push back.

BUT, let's be honest here. How much below market rent are you paying?

You can't pay below market rent and then expect the owner to maintain the property as if it was rented at market value (I mean they exist, but are rare). And if you are paying market rent, then you need to leave asap and find a better rental.

The picture is actually not evidence of anything, but according to your posts about stove burners and this in such a short time, you either need to get used to this owner or leave. Otherwise, you will be pissed off again and again. It's not worth it.

Best of luck!

I'm interested to know why you assumed we are paying less than FMV.  When we signed the lease, it was at FMV (give or take).  Now, that was 7 months ago in a hot market, so now it is probably below FMV, but so is any other property here that didn't sign a lease in the last ~3 months. 

We signed a 3 year lease, so moving is not an option.  And this is not a cheap property.  It's an anti-mustachian mcMansion (nearly 5000 sqft).  We selected it because my spouse's job moved to the burbs and it was actually cheaper to rent this than a far more modest home closer to the city (especially given tight inventory at the time of year we were looking and the very beginnings of the RE explosion).  But it's not a low-end property where one should expect more frequent landlord issues.  It would sell for nearly $1m. (We are in a very HCOLA, but this is a long commute--though people do make it--from the major metro areas.  Just so happens that DH's job transferred him from that area to a location dropped in the middle of suburbia.  7 minutes commute FTW!)  Which is all the more reason it is ridiculous that the owners are letting it rot out from under them--they should have a great deal of equity to tap for necessary repairs if they can't cash flow it, and it is a huge asset they are letting depreciate more than necessary because they are penny wise and pound foolish.  And we aren't talking tens of thousands of dollars in repairs (yet, though more water incursion could get them there).

Also, they raised the rent from the last tenant (lived there ~2 years) by $400/mo.  In just the time we've been renting, that difference alone would probably come close to covering at least one set of doors.  I know money is fungible and property taxes likely ate up some of that, but my larger point is that they are taking in a lot of money on this property and if they can't afford a few thousand dollars to replace doors that actively leak, then they are doing something very, very wrong.  If you take in $40,000+ in rent on a property you've owned for 15 years and you can't afford necessary maintenance... yeah. 

I'm not sure how that picture is not evidence that the doors (and their seals) are in terrible shape, since it shows the door's seal, in terrible shape.  The point was that that any leaking is very clearly the fault of these doors, not the fault of my shoveling.

Thankfully, the email I sent saying that while I will shovel more frequently but don't want them to rely on that to prevent leaks in a failing door, and that I can't guarantee that snow will never reach the doors, went over well.  They thanked me for "doing the best you can" and said that they know they "can't expect anything more than that".  I was careful not to use the phrase, "I'll do what I *can*" because I *can* hire someone when I'm out of town or set an alarm to get up at 3am when we have a snowstorm so I can check the snow level and shove.  I can do those things, but I won't.  What I will do is go push a shovel when I'm home and snow starts accumulating.   But I feel fairly confident that I've made the point that while I acknowledge snow can be an issue and will shovel accordingly, they can't confidently rely on that to cover their decision not to replace faulty doors. 

I am "getting used to this" in the sense that I am now fully expecting them to be cheap, borderline negligent landlords.  That's part of the reason I wanted to draw a firm line on this.  I want the PM (and landlords) to know that I'm not just going to accept whatever they say or do.  I was very polite and helpful in my email (regarding this, and also the roof leak we are in the middle of, that I'm sure they will "keep an eye on" in perpetuity and not address because it would mean spending money***), but I made it clear that I'll do what I will do, and was making no promises. 

***I reported a water stain on the ceiling last Friday.  They had a plumber out on Monday, but he determined it's not a plumbing issue as we all assumed since it was almost directly under a toilet.  But it is also directly under where the wall of the 2nd floor meets the roofline of the first floor, so it is almost certainly a roof issue.  I've been asked to "keep an eye on it", which seems to be their favorite phrase, and today the PM texted me to ask how the leak looked.  (She lives 10 minutes away and got a lot of rain, but we got none.)  Beyond that, they have not indicated they plan to even have someone come look at the roof.  I'm okay with that because a stain doesn't bother me, but as a homeowner I'd be thinking of mold and rotting joists and whatever else is around that leak.  And a 23 year old roof is something one should reasonably expect to have to replace, or at a minimum, repair.)

Villanelle

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2021, 10:55:39 AM »
IMO, the tenant's snow removal obligation is only that which is required by the city (sidewalks) and for general use/access of the property by the tenant. E.g. the tenant can't call the landlord up and demand that they plow the driveway so they can access the garage. Likewise, the tenant cannot claim breach of lease because it snowed 2' and they cannot use the deck... clear it yourself if you want to keep using it.

I don't think a reasonable person would read the snow removal obligation as a requirement for the tenant to compensate for deficiencies in the structure itself. Unless otherwise stated in the lease agreement, preventing water intrusion and overall weatherization is the responsibility of the landlord.

As it turns out, my lease says, "tenant is responsible for ... promptly removing ice and snow from all walks, steps and drives; So, not "decks and around leaking doors we won't replace even though that's part of basic home maintenance."

Since I think I was pretty careful not to create an additional legal agreement by agreeing to keep the doors snow-free, I feel like I'm legally in a pretty good position.  Which was the entire point of this whole thing--I don't mind some shoveling and don't want a leak, but if sufficient shoveling it doesn't happen, the results aren't my problem. 

Nate R

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2021, 11:07:33 AM »
Does water hit this door in the rain, or is it well protected by overhangs? That seal looks like it's out of place, and could be funneling water right IN just from rain alone....

Villanelle

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2021, 11:11:42 AM »
Does water hit this door in the rain, or is it well protected by overhangs? That seal looks like it's out of place, and could be funneling water right IN just from rain alone....

We haven't seen or felt any water coming in, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened in the walls or under the carpet.  The area is semi-protected (no only overhand is one floor up, so ~20 feet above the door seal, and only about a foot wide, but because the deck is in a corner of the house, that provides some protection, and based on the usual direction of the wind the house itself blocks the worst of it) so doesn't get inundated, but certainly does get wet. 

FINate

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2021, 11:30:38 AM »
IMO, the tenant's snow removal obligation is only that which is required by the city (sidewalks) and for general use/access of the property by the tenant. E.g. the tenant can't call the landlord up and demand that they plow the driveway so they can access the garage. Likewise, the tenant cannot claim breach of lease because it snowed 2' and they cannot use the deck... clear it yourself if you want to keep using it.

I don't think a reasonable person would read the snow removal obligation as a requirement for the tenant to compensate for deficiencies in the structure itself. Unless otherwise stated in the lease agreement, preventing water intrusion and overall weatherization is the responsibility of the landlord.
The legal standard isn't "reasonable person" it's "real estate contract law".  A requirement in the lease for snow removal plus an email agreeing to snow removal on the deck so as to keep water out of the house (depending on circumstances, which will be arguable) is a contract.

Generally agree, but it depends on what "snow removal" means. Left unspecified, it's vague enough to be open to interpretation. OP has since clarified, however, exactly what the lease says and they clearly don't have an obligation to remove snow from up against the structure.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 11:35:03 AM by FINate »

Zamboni

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2021, 12:11:30 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure why they continued to keep it as a rental when clearly they can't (or, I suspect, won't) pay for basic upkeep.

This one is clearly a "won't" issue. My admittedly limited experiences is that many, many landlords are content to let the properties literally fall down around their tenants as long as the cash keeps flowing.

And why should they fix it now that you are all moved in with a long lease? Especially since you have now confirmed that you are willing to accept their "you just need to shovel the snow more" gaslighting. And that's what it is. Gaslighting.

I think a lot of damage to the area surrounding the door likely also happens during rain. My suggestion is to keep a look out for carpet or trim wetness after rain, and then report both that interior wetness and that you are concerned about a "moldy smell" when it does happen. Basically, be a persistently polite but also persistently a pain in the ass if it is something that concerns you (like perhaps you are worried about your furniture getting wet and moldy due to their negligence? Or maybe you are worried about toxic mold?) Depends where you live, I guess, on that last point, and if you would consider moving out over deferred maintenance negligence. That's the only way you will get them to fix anything, imho.

therethere

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2021, 12:16:29 PM »
Since you seem to be stuck there for 3 years do some googling and figure out who the owner is and keep their info available. You may need to contact them directly one day if crap ever hits the fan.

Our PM would always tell us the landlord didn't approve repairs many times over the years. Turns out, they were often charging the landlord for the repairs and not fixing them. Or they were charging him $75 every site visit, but the site visits would be for a quote only. The landlord was under the impression the repairs were done during the site visit. Basicallly, if the repair was under the nominal amount that they could charge without landlord approval they would do it. But if it was over that amount they would just dick around with site visits and quotes until we quit asking. There are some real shady PM's out there who lie on both sides. Not saying this is what's happening in your case. But it's better to be prepared. All your issues sound eerily similar to what I've lived through in this place.

It's a pity you aren't paying undermarket. Because they will be taking away a lot of your life energy in those 3 years. I'm still in my rental only because we're way under market and month to month. I'd also keep any concerns about mold in your back pocket as a way to get out of your lease if need be. In my state, functioning doors and windows and screens are a habitability requirement. 

Zamboni

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2021, 12:25:29 PM »
^Egad, that is really bad! I wonder if my most recent PM company was doing something like that? Hmmm.

Not a lawyer, but pretty sure from my own tenant and house buying experiences that functioning exterior doors and a functional stove and oven are habitability requirement in all jurisdictions in the US and Canada. Of course, what constitutes functional is some grey area. If it securely locks, then the landlord probably can slide.

And I agree that voicing the mold concern is an ace card to possibly get out of your lease, should you ever want to do that.

PMJL34

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2021, 12:47:20 PM »
OP,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I assumed it was under market for number of reasons.

Nonetheless, it sounds like overall you like your home. It sounds like you and owner/PM are on the same page for snow removal and you did a great job communicating your position. I say you are good to go and keep enjoying your home (I just can't imagine 5000 sq ft for 2? people!!). Fingers crossed the leak doesn't become a major issue. If it does, let them know and hope they fix it. Nothing more you can do.

trollwithamustache

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2021, 01:55:09 PM »
Do you have to explicitly respond?
 
It feels having to shovel the snow is reasonable and within your responsibilities as tenants.  sure its not the front door, but it is a door. That is, it is a means of egress if there was a fire or emergency. So you would benefit from the safety value.

You are not responsible for fixing anything, but you do have a responsibility to notify the manager of problems, so notify away! next time it rains, send an email to the property manager documenting the water getting there/looking like a leak ect.  Light snow/ melts early in the seasons with water against the door? follow up email. Shovel the snow away but its still wet inside the not working deal? notify.

SunnyDays

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2021, 02:38:31 PM »
Be very very careful about possible mold growth from the ceiling leak.  I had a similar issue in an apartment and ended up with a mold sensitivity and allergy that had a significant impact on my health for several years.  Don’t fool around with that.

Villanelle

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Re: Tenant snow removal obligtions
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2021, 04:46:37 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure why they continued to keep it as a rental when clearly they can't (or, I suspect, won't) pay for basic upkeep.

This one is clearly a "won't" issue. My admittedly limited experiences is that many, many landlords are content to let the properties literally fall down around their tenants as long as the cash keeps flowing.

And why should they fix it now that you are all moved in with a long lease? Especially since you have now confirmed that you are willing to accept their "you just need to shovel the snow more" gaslighting. And that's what it is. Gaslighting.

I think a lot of damage to the area surrounding the door likely also happens during rain. My suggestion is to keep a look out for carpet or trim wetness after rain, and then report both that interior wetness and that you are concerned about a "moldy smell" when it does happen. Basically, be a persistently polite but also persistently a pain in the ass if it is something that concerns you (like perhaps you are worried about your furniture getting wet and moldy due to their negligence? Or maybe you are worried about toxic mold?) Depends where you live, I guess, on that last point, and if you would consider moving out over deferred maintenance negligence. That's the only way you will get them to fix anything, imho.

Huh?  I basically said that while I will shovel some, I'm not going to "keep snow away from the doors", like they asked.  So I don't think I said I'd accept their 'gaslighting'.  I believe I said in my email, "you can assume that at some point, snow will get to the doors", or something like that. 

And we've had a fair amount of rain since we moved in bas as far as we can tell (and we've looked, especially early on), no damage. So it really seems that rain isn't a problem, but they seem to think that snow will be (and I'm assuming they know what cause the previous leaks)