Sweat equity, time, money considerations shopping for primary home?

[jeromedawg]

Some major boulevards can be just about as bad as a freeway for air quality (possibly worse if the freeway segment in question almost always flows smoothly vs heavy stop an go traffic on the boulevard). The more trees between you an the freeway the better as well as they can help to filter the air. Day to day, the impact of distance from the freeway on air quality will depend on wind (stronger wind reduces intensity of the air quality impact, but increases its distance). I've tended not to worry particularly about freeway proximity as they are just one of many sources of air pollution in an urban environment; but I've never seriously considered purchasing a home that close to a freeway either.

I think where I'm located (South Orange County) there tends to be a lot less traffic than in other parts of OC and especially LA. While living near the freeway never occurred to me as a major concern until we visited that house and realized how close it is to the freeway, I think the traffic tends to flow in this area more than it is stop-and-go...even on the streets. Good point about the trees and wind too - I think the Santa Ana winds tend to breeze west towards the coast. Smog isn't a big concern down here - if this were downtown LA I'd be a lot more concerned... There are definitely a good amount of trees around as well. So I think as long as we're not the first or second row of houses directly next to the freeway, I'll be ok. I suppose the rule of thumb can be to live no closer than where we were at our last place (around 1000' or so minimum) and preferably with a good amount of parks and or trees in between.

[jeromedawg]

Would any of you consider taking on a non-turnkey fixer-upper that needs a good amount of work with the intent of making it your primary? There would probably be some carrying costs getting it move-in ready but hopefully not more than a few months?

This is one intended for flippers/investors in our area (they are discouraging traditional loans):
https://www.redfin.com/CA/Mission-Viejo/23852-Lindley-St-92691/home/4841136

At face and without seeing the inside but I'm assuming a good amount of work needed, I'd estimate around $100k worth of updates (paint, flooring, paving driveway, updating kitchen/appliances and bathrooms) but not sure about foundation issues as well as issues with plumbing or HVAC. Not sure how long it would take but our lease at the current place ends at the end of July and we can give 30 days written notice to move out with no lease termination (this was a deal that we had gotten in on last year amidst the COVID situation)

The most comparable in the immediate neighborhood (https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/24811-Rockfield-Blvd-92630/home/4838758) sold for just under $600 per square foot in more turnkey condition. I'm slightly confused too because I wouldn't think this area is as desirable as other areas. I haven't been in this particular neighborhood though so maybe it's a nicer pocket of town. LOL, it was listed at $750k and ppl overbid it up to $806k...!!! Fix and flipping the $650k home seems like an easy buck if you can manage to get away with $100k worth of repairs. Of course, we would be intending to live there :)

[sonofsven]

Back to the original question of fixers, I always thought the term was mainly marketing.
Most of the fixers really just "need" updating and I never thought they  were discounted enough in price.
Calling it a fixer is just a way to make excuses about appearance because the real fixers are not loanable.
Those were the fixers I liked. If I was going to gut it I wanted to pay for as few working parts as possible on the front end. The worse they look the cheaper they are.
So that's my take: fixers are overpriced.

[jeromedawg]

Back to the original question of fixers, I always thought the term was mainly marketing.
Most of the fixers really just "need" updating and I never thought they  were discounted enough in price.
Calling it a fixer is just a way to make excuses about appearance because the real fixers are not loanable.
Those were the fixers I liked. If I was going to gut it I wanted to pay for as few working parts as possible on the front end. The worse they look the cheaper they are.
So that's my take: fixers are overpriced.

That's what I was thinking... so even flippers are overpaying for fixers. At the same time, they're making money because people who want turnkey are overpaying for that. It's all insanity lol

[SunnyDays]

The outside mainly looks neglected, but not what I would consider a fixer upper.  If the inside is similar, it might just need cleaning and basic maintenance to be quite livable, and upgrades could be done as desired over time.  Or it could be completely trashed.  You’d have to see it to know.

Most people don’t want any kind of work and will pay a premium to avoid it.  Often the difference in the monthly mortgage payment is small enough that it seems worth it, but if one considers the length of time added on to the mortgage, and the additional interest payments, the total amount can be shocking.  In general, people are too easily influenced by pretty decor and don’t have the imagination for how they could improve an average or below average looking house.  So if you can do that and get a house like that for a reasonable price, you can get way ahead of the game.

[jeromedawg]

The outside mainly looks neglected, but not what I would consider a fixer upper.  If the inside is similar, it might just need cleaning and basic maintenance to be quite livable, and upgrades could be done as desired over time.  Or it could be completely trashed.  You’d have to see it to know.

Most people don’t want any kind of work and will pay a premium to avoid it.  Often the difference in the monthly mortgage payment is small enough that it seems worth it, but if one considers the length of time added on to the mortgage, and the additional interest payments, the total amount can be shocking.  In general, people are too easily influenced by pretty decor and don’t have the imagination for how they could improve an average or below average looking house.  So if you can do that and get a house like that for a reasonable price, you can get way ahead of the game.

We tried to view it today but the listing agent was unresponsive. We showed up to view a property literally right across the street and after viewing it we walked over to look - there's a missing window on side of the garage and the inside looked like it probably needs a number of updates (flooring was tile and saw missing baseboards, etc). As we were looking my realtor heard back from the listing agent that an offer was accepted. He told me soon after that they took an offer that was around $740k all cash or high down. So whatever investor took it on paid $90k over the list price. The home we checked out right across the street is listed at $890k currently and my realtor thinks this is slightly below 'fair' market value with the upgrades done (it's an average/above-average turnkey condition home IMO)...it's also a corner lot with a pretty decently sized yard. He expect this one may get up to $950k or so. So whoever scooped of the Lindley home for $740k probably is planning to put in up to that $100k worth of work (possibly less) and is maybe thinking they can flip it for $900k and turn a $60k+ profit on it. That places the sq foot value at $620/sq ft which is just insane especially for that area (for reference, there's someone trying to sell an 'updated' home of similar size for the same price per sq foot. It has been on the market for a LONG time now and they keep increasing the listing price, so not sure what the deal is - https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/24092-Landisview-Ave-92630/home/4832165). It's also possible that whoever bought Lindley is planning to update it and live in it? That would make more sense to me at least... then again, I don't know if anything makes sense in this current market.

[MilesTeg]

Hey all,

We are in the process of looking for a primary residence (coming from renting currently and having sold our condo last year). I was wondering what your guys' takes are on purchasing a fixer versus just going turnkey. This is in a pretty HCOL area (Orange County SoCal) - inventory is highly limited and pricing is just insane (people overbidding on market by margins of $50k+ depending on the specific area).

While the idea of buying into a fixer is somewhat appealing it sounds like a potential nightmare: 1) we would be renting and living at the current place while 2) paying the carrying costs (mortgage) on the fixer and 3) spending money and or time on the capital improvements and major renovations. 3 would be factored into whatever the offer price is but I'm thinking in ranges that are $50k-100k over, and we have no prior experience project managing something of this scale.

Turnkey sounds great, except for that fact that people are more willing than ever to compete and outbid one another for the convenience of it. I could see this going down the road of the temptation to say "it's okay, let's just overextend" 


How many of you, as far as your primary goes, would be willing to buy something needing major renovations and how do you determine what a "fair offer" looks like (in a competitive market) if you were to go this route?

There are a few major problems, from my perspective:

1. Trying to live in a house that needs major work is very disruptive to your life and to getting the work done.
2. I know plenty of people who said "we'll fix it up" -- that was years or decades ago and still no progress.
3. Most places in need of fixing up are old and may contain asbestos, lead paint and other hazards that can be costly (financially and to your health) to remediate.

[SunnyDays]

With those kinds of prices, it seems like a good idea to either move away from the area or keep renting.  That last one would sell for around 400K where I live and the quality of life is great here, as long as you don’t mind winter.

As for @MilesTeg’s comments, I think the fact that Reno’s tend not to get done once people move in just says that they weren’t that important after all.  Also, lots of people are very hard on their homes, so I wouldn’t assume that one that needs quite a bit of work is so old that it would have dangerous things like asbestos.

Anyway, as others have said, with your job situation being up in the air, it probably would be wise to get that settled first.  Maybe look in cheaper places.  You can be happy in other areas/states than SoCal.  Once Covid settles down a bit more,you could take some time to explore other places that interest you.

[jeromedawg]

Hey all,

We are in the process of looking for a primary residence (coming from renting currently and having sold our condo last year). I was wondering what your guys' takes are on purchasing a fixer versus just going turnkey. This is in a pretty HCOL area (Orange County SoCal) - inventory is highly limited and pricing is just insane (people overbidding on market by margins of $50k+ depending on the specific area).

While the idea of buying into a fixer is somewhat appealing it sounds like a potential nightmare: 1) we would be renting and living at the current place while 2) paying the carrying costs (mortgage) on the fixer and 3) spending money and or time on the capital improvements and major renovations. 3 would be factored into whatever the offer price is but I'm thinking in ranges that are $50k-100k over, and we have no prior experience project managing something of this scale.

Turnkey sounds great, except for that fact that people are more willing than ever to compete and outbid one another for the convenience of it. I could see this going down the road of the temptation to say "it's okay, let's just overextend" 


How many of you, as far as your primary goes, would be willing to buy something needing major renovations and how do you determine what a "fair offer" looks like (in a competitive market) if you were to go this route?

There are a few major problems, from my perspective:

1. Trying to live in a house that needs major work is very disruptive to your life and to getting the work done.
2. I know plenty of people who said "we'll fix it up" -- that was years or decades ago and still no progress.
3. Most places in need of fixing up are old and may contain asbestos, lead paint and other hazards that can be costly (financially and to your health) to remediate.

Very true. I think for anywhere needing new paint and flooring (and baseboards), major work, or hazards, I'd want to get all that taken care of up front before moving in.

For turnkey homes where the carpet or flooring are still in OK condition with some life (but perhaps not preference in terms of style, etc), I'd defer those updates to later down the road and be content with what's there and do my best to keep it maintained (this is what we did with our last place that we sold, and we sold with the original carpet in place).

[jeromedawg]

With those kinds of prices, it seems like a good idea to either move away from the area or keep renting.  That last one would sell for around 400K where I live and the quality of life is great here, as long as you don’t mind winter.

As for @MilesTeg’s comments, I think the fact that Reno’s tend not to get done once people move in just says that they weren’t that important after all.  Also, lots of people are very hard on their homes, so I wouldn’t assume that one that needs quite a bit of work is so old that it would have dangerous things like asbestos.

Anyway, as others have said, with your job situation being up in the air, it probably would be wise to get that settled first.  Maybe look in cheaper places.  You can be happy in other areas/states than SoCal.  Once Covid settles down a bit more,you could take some time to explore other places that interest you.

If you don't mind me asking, where are you based out of?

I have $400k worth of down payment money to put into a place (technically we can fork over more but I'd like to avoid doing that and eat into our stache). I think a home priced no more than $850k would be more reasonably within our comfort-level and give a decent amount of cushion if something were to happen with the current job and or I have to take a paycut.

The idea of leaving SoCal right now is a tough proposition - my in-laws are 1.5hours away and my wife would have a really hard time leaving them with no family around (her brother is up in the Bay Area but they also don't really like visiting with him [or having him visit them] because he's super high maintenance/particular/OCD about things and it's just unnecessary overhead when he visits...as awful as that sounds). That really just leaves us as their only 'family' that they want to see on a regular basis. They are now really putting the pressure on us to buy as well, offering money (that they shouldn't be gifting or lending out) to us towards a downpayment, etc...sigh.
We also want to keep our kids in some kind of immersion program and already see how great an experience it has been so far for our son to learn Chinese (and he hasn't even started in the official immersion program yet - Kindergarten starts in the upcoming fall) and to be able to communicate pretty effectively with his grandparents.


Aside from that and the weather, the location we're in is pretty special - we are very close to a lake/regional park, within 20-30 minutes away from beaches, plenty of smaller hills and trails to bike or hike within 5-10 minutes, and the mountains within a few hours.

Hard to beat but I guess you're paying the premium for it in home prices.

The only way my wife might feel comfortable with this is if we could somehow convince my in-laws to move with us to wherever we plan on going. And that would be hard because a majority of their social network and friends are here in SoCal. It would be very difficult convincing them to leave that all behind. My wife also helps them in a lot of ways that are not obvious/apparent to them but they realize the value she brings in terms of helping them regardless.

[SunnyDays]

I'm on the Canadian prairies, so I doubt you'd want to move here!  I was just making the point that you can find a good quality of life in lots of places, but I understand being tied down by family.  You have a hard decision to make.

[lhamo]

I think you need to look a little harder.

What's wrong with this one?

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/22875-Willard-Ave-92630/home/4818491

Or this one?

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/23312-La-Vaca-St-92630/home/4832292

[jeromedawg]

I think you need to look a little harder.

What's wrong with this one?

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/22875-Willard-Ave-92630/home/4818491

Or this one?

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/23312-La-Vaca-St-92630/home/4832292

I've noticed pride of ownership seems highly YMMV among the Lake Forest neighborhoods - of course, I don't know LF well enough to make solid judgement calls but from what I've seen it's really a mixed bag. So I'd be wary jumping into the lowest price homes in whatever neighborhood... both those homes are situated just outside of the bounds that we'd prefer to be commuting to school as well (we've driven to that area from where we are currently, which is just around the corner from school and it feels like a long drive). We checked out one or two homes recently around that side of Lake Forest not long ago and weren't impressed with the general area.  The Willard house looks like it's probably in a slightly better neighborhood but there's also HOAs. I noticed the La Vaca house is listed as a 3/2 but seems to have another room that's setup as an office. So that has piqued my curiosity.

I think we need to continue learning the area and market - I feel like we don't have quite the best grasp just yet and we're still learning a lot about the area. South OC is very new to us as this is the first time we've spent a considerable time down here.

[Wintergreen78]

Some major boulevards can be just about as bad as a freeway for air quality (possibly worse if the freeway segment in question almost always flows smoothly vs heavy stop an go traffic on the boulevard). The more trees between you an the freeway the better as well as they can help to filter the air. Day to day, the impact of distance from the freeway on air quality will depend on wind (stronger wind reduces intensity of the air quality impact, but increases its distance). I've tended not to worry particularly about freeway proximity as they are just one of many sources of air pollution in an urban environment; but I've never seriously considered purchasing a home that close to a freeway either.

I think where I'm located (South Orange County) there tends to be a lot less traffic than in other parts of OC and especially LA. While living near the freeway never occurred to me as a major concern until we visited that house and realized how close it is to the freeway, I think the traffic tends to flow in this area more than it is stop-and-go...even on the streets. Good point about the trees and wind too - I think the Santa Ana winds tend to breeze west towards the coast. Smog isn't a big concern down here - if this were downtown LA I'd be a lot more concerned... There are definitely a good amount of trees around as well. So I think as long as we're not the first or second row of houses directly next to the freeway, I'll be ok. I suppose the rule of thumb can be to live no closer than where we were at our last place (around 1000' or so minimum) and preferably with a good amount of parks and or trees in between.

Generally the recommendation for new construction is no closer than 500 feet to freeways, but at least 1,500 feet away is better. Freeways are probably the major source of localized air pollution you can be exposed to in most urban areas, especially diesel pollution, which is linked to higher rates of cardiovascular disease. And remember, if you live right next to a freeway you are exposing yourself to those higher levels every day.

Trees and other obstacles are funny. In some cases they reduce pollutant concentrations right next to the freeway, but they can also elevate concentrations a little further away in certain circumstances. There was research done a few years ago trying to develop general guidelines and the takeaway was that planting trees is better than nothing, but you shouldn’t assume that they do much. The best way to reduce exposure us to live further away. Personally, I would not buy a place within 1500 feet of a freeway, especially if it has heavy diesel truck traffic.

[dang1]

there's always the Inland Empire

[lhamo]

I searched that zipcode because you posted the listing near the highway.  The two listings I posted were in the same price range and looked pretty good to me.

I really don't get your point about not considering "the lowest priced homes in whatever neighborhood."  That is where you get your upside in real estate.  That is what flippers do.  They buy the stuff that has decent bones but is a bit worn around the edges because grandpa couldn't handle the maintenance for the last 10 years, or it was rented to the same family for that length of time.

Personally I think you are nuts to be considering buying before your job situation is sorted out.  If I were in your position my Inner Bag Lady would be pushing me to make an offer on this:

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/24001-Muirlands-Blvd-92630/unit-178/home/5141924

Anyway, you do you.

[jeromedawg]

I searched that zipcode because you posted the listing near the highway.  The two listings I posted were in the same price range and looked pretty good to me.

I really don't get your point about not considering "the lowest priced homes in whatever neighborhood."  That is where you get your upside in real estate.  That is what flippers do.  They buy the stuff that has decent bones but is a bit worn around the edges because grandpa couldn't handle the maintenance for the last 10 years, or it was rented to the same family for that length of time.

Personally I think you are nuts to be considering buying before your job situation is sorted out.  If I were in your position my Inner Bag Lady would be pushing me to make an offer on this:

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/24001-Muirlands-Blvd-92630/unit-178/home/5141924

Anyway, you do you.

I thought the rule of thumb was to target buying the worst house in the best neighborhood (and then adding value to it, etc). I wouldn't call either of those areas the "best neighborhoods" - as far as zip code and location, yes they are in the same zip code or close but a mile away of street or highway does make a difference in commute time, especially if you have to take local roads at all. You could take the highway to commute but there's always the negative factor of traffic in the early AM (with everyone else dropping their kids off and going to work) as well as in the afternoon when they pick the kids up and or get off work. With things 'normalizing' again with COVID especially these days (and I've noticed a definite uptick in traffic), buying further away from school is not going to be any different from buying further away from the office/job that's on the other side of town... in both cases you'll have to factor in a commute that you might end up hating. So in my opinion, the neighborhood you move in does matter in the long run. It may not seem that way with the way things are amidst the madness. I can attest to this per the last place I moved into - aside from making the mistake of moving into a bottom unit, I didn't really look at the long-term of living in an HOA/condo that was in an area with generally lower property values. Accordingly, over time, the quality of residents and neighbors diminished - it started off with many home/condo owners with more of a 'pride of ownership' who then started renting out or sold to others who rented - the HOA started going through a period of turmoil and inner-fighting and there was all this drama over stupid decisions like paint color choices and at some point nearly every building in the community had a different shade of paint and it looked ridiculous, etc. (NOTE: This is also why I'm avoiding HOAs). Driving around different neighborhoods, you get somewhat of a 'feel' for who the neighbors are based on the appearance of the homes and what not. Like I said, based on what I've seen so far, Lake Forest is a mixed bag - even within a specific neighborhood community, there are patches of 'low quality' neighbors whose front yards has yellowed grass and overgrown brush (sometimes these could be older homeowners who have neglected the property but oftentimes they're not necessarily old or they are renters).
At this rate, we're just taking our time scoping things out and not trying to rush into buying (we're basically looking for a 'deal'). This coincides with me figuring out the job situation (or at least forming more income streams) as I've also been working on that side of things too (although, not so enthusiastically).

BTW: you realize the listing you posted is a modular/mobile home unit right? Is there like a 'niche' there where ppl actually will fix and flip those? The margins seem a lot less. My wife's friend and her family lived in a unit like that (it was one that their parents insisted they live in) but eventually moved out when the husband got a different job. The idea of living in a mobile home park community has never appealed to me much. But I suppose if I wanted to live in Newport Beach (or just closer to the beach) and didn't care (and also wanted to FIRE immediately), I might very well consider something like that.

Some major boulevards can be just about as bad as a freeway for air quality (possibly worse if the freeway segment in question almost always flows smoothly vs heavy stop an go traffic on the boulevard). The more trees between you an the freeway the better as well as they can help to filter the air. Day to day, the impact of distance from the freeway on air quality will depend on wind (stronger wind reduces intensity of the air quality impact, but increases its distance). I've tended not to worry particularly about freeway proximity as they are just one of many sources of air pollution in an urban environment; but I've never seriously considered purchasing a home that close to a freeway either.

I think where I'm located (South Orange County) there tends to be a lot less traffic than in other parts of OC and especially LA. While living near the freeway never occurred to me as a major concern until we visited that house and realized how close it is to the freeway, I think the traffic tends to flow in this area more than it is stop-and-go...even on the streets. Good point about the trees and wind too - I think the Santa Ana winds tend to breeze west towards the coast. Smog isn't a big concern down here - if this were downtown LA I'd be a lot more concerned... There are definitely a good amount of trees around as well. So I think as long as we're not the first or second row of houses directly next to the freeway, I'll be ok. I suppose the rule of thumb can be to live no closer than where we were at our last place (around 1000' or so minimum) and preferably with a good amount of parks and or trees in between.

Generally the recommendation for new construction is no closer than 500 feet to freeways, but at least 1,500 feet away is better. Freeways are probably the major source of localized air pollution you can be exposed to in most urban areas, especially diesel pollution, which is linked to higher rates of cardiovascular disease. And remember, if you live right next to a freeway you are exposing yourself to those higher levels every day.

Trees and other obstacles are funny. In some cases they reduce pollutant concentrations right next to the freeway, but they can also elevate concentrations a little further away in certain circumstances. There was research done a few years ago trying to develop general guidelines and the takeaway was that planting trees is better than nothing, but you shouldn’t assume that they do much. The best way to reduce exposure us to live further away. Personally, I would not buy a place within 1500 feet of a freeway, especially if it has heavy diesel truck traffic.

Yes, I believe I read the same thing. Good to solidify that - as it is, I have to keep my cholesterol and BP in check so it seems looking further away from the freeway is going to be a higher priority.  Interesting note about trees - but that makes sense how pollutants could potentially get 'trapped' in pockets that aren't even directly next to a freeway.

there's always the Inland Empire

True, but unfortunately no Mandarin Immersion programs out there (at least, that I know of). I suppose we could find and pay for private schooling for this if we were to presumably be paying a lower mortgage amount. I'm drawn to the idea of taking advantage of this in a public school setting though.

[jeromedawg]

In the current market, if any of you were in a position where you were wanting to move, would you consider paying a little bit more for a home that is basic turnkey with a really great layout that you could just move into and start living in but could use some more modern/current updating (like repainting kitchen cabinets, potentially adding recessed lighting to brighten things up, updating the yard a bit, replacing/changing older fixtures, etc things that you can DIY or value-add over time that aren't things that need to be done right away)? Just found one that came onto the market at barely $800k - this is considered LOW for this area as most comparable excellent+ condition turnkey homes are being sold for upwards of $950k-$1mm. I've seen homes in not as good condition (both through pics and in person) starting at $850k as well.

This particular home was listed in December and they actually went into contract on it but then it fell out and they just relisted it (for the same $800k price that it was listed back in December).
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/25272-York-Cir_Laguna-Hills_CA_92653_M23914-11035

Assuming the floorplan is fine, I'm willing to work on this one - they recently put new flooring throughout the entire house and updated the kitchen. There are not many pics though so have to see it in person. This would be one, where if it's technically move-in ready, I'd be OK with moving into and slowly updating things as we go.

EDIT: found a neighboring home with what looks to be a very similar if not the same layout... it looks like an investor bought this one and tried to flip it in 2017 but couldn't find a buyer so turned it into a rental (I would tend to think that they're perhaps trying to figure out a way to get the current renters out right now too so they can sell - and I'd imagine they could probably turn it for a cool $975k minimum based on current frenzy):
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/25245-York-Cir-Laguna-Hills-CA-92653/25540894_zpid/

[former player]

I think you are looking within a particular school catchment area?  That is an additional reason for you to apply the saying "location, location, location".

In your place I would be drawing lines on a map.  Shade out everything that is outside the catchment area.  Shade out everything inside the catchment area that is a hard no -eg within X distance of a polluting highway, and any other of your hard nos - all the locations that you think you would end up regretting.  I'd then draw a second set of lines for "we would love to live in this area for the next 15 to 20 years and we are prepared to put in highly competitive (in this market) bids to live there".  What's left are the areas "we would be happy to live here for the next 15 to 20 years and we are prepared put in bids in this area that we think have a decent chance of success".

After that, you need to consider everything, and I mean every single residential and commercial property and piece of land in those areas.  Anything that is remotely possible as a future place for your family to live you need to see in person as soon as possible.  When looking at a property you need to ignore the cosmetics - paint finishes, floor finishes, finishes in kitchens and bathrooms.  You are looking at the plot, the size of building, the layout, the walls and the roof: in a hot market with limited supply these are the things that are relevant. 

90% of what you have been saying here about the properties you are looking at is about those cosmetics and that is exactly the wrong way to go about looking at spending the best part of $1m on a house that you are going to stay in long term.  In 5 or 10 or 15 years almost any "modern" property is going to have finishes that look outdated - the only way to avoid this is to buy historic or something old enough to be back in style such as mid-century modern.  Finishes that are up to date as of now might be nice to have but they are nowhere on your list of priorities.  That house you say "you are willing to work on"?  In your situation, that's the wrong attitude (the listing now says "off market" anyway).

One thought that might take the pressure off: does the current pandemic situation allow you to hire an office space/desk space away from home for you to work at for at least part of the week?   If space to work is the biggest pressure on your current living situation then that may be an easier solution than chasing your forever home in a hot market.

[Paper Chaser]

Yes, buy the place that's not perfect but easily turned into what you want. Paint, flooring, fixtures, etc are easy and fairly cheap to change. They can be done reasonably quick while you live there or just before moving in. Square footage, layouts, full remodels, expensive repairs/replacement, etc are more difficult and costly.

[jeromedawg]

I think you are looking within a particular school catchment area?  That is an additional reason for you to apply the saying "location, location, location".

In your place I would be drawing lines on a map.  Shade out everything that is outside the catchment area.  Shade out everything inside the catchment area that is a hard no -eg within X distance of a polluting highway, and any other of your hard nos - all the locations that you think you would end up regretting.  I'd then draw a second set of lines for "we would love to live in this area for the next 15 to 20 years and we are prepared to put in highly competitive (in this market) bids to live there".  What's left are the areas "we would be happy to live here for the next 15 to 20 years and we are prepared put in bids in this area that we think have a decent chance of success".

After that, you need to consider everything, and I mean every single residential and commercial property and piece of land in those areas.  Anything that is remotely possible as a future place for your family to live you need to see in person as soon as possible.  When looking at a property you need to ignore the cosmetics - paint finishes, floor finishes, finishes in kitchens and bathrooms.  You are looking at the plot, the size of building, the layout, the walls and the roof: in a hot market with limited supply these are the things that are relevant. 

90% of what you have been saying here about the properties you are looking at is about those cosmetics and that is exactly the wrong way to go about looking at spending the best part of $1m on a house that you are going to stay in long term.  In 5 or 10 or 15 years almost any "modern" property is going to have finishes that look outdated - the only way to avoid this is to buy historic or something old enough to be back in style such as mid-century modern.  Finishes that are up to date as of now might be nice to have but they are nowhere on your list of priorities.  That house you say "you are willing to work on"?  In your situation, that's the wrong attitude (the listing now says "off market" anyway).

One thought that might take the pressure off: does the current pandemic situation allow you to hire an office space/desk space away from home for you to work at for at least part of the week?   If space to work is the biggest pressure on your current living situation then that may be an easier solution than chasing your forever home in a hot market.

It's "coming soon" per Redfin (supposedly Saturday). As far as school catchment - yes, originally. I did my research and found the boundary map for the school and isolated the search first to the school boundary. That's how we chose to live in the apartment we're in now. Thing is, now that our son has been accepted into the program, we technically don't need to live within the school boundary (although it would be *great* if we were in this immediate area regardless). Either way, especially with current market pricing we have had to look outside of the boundary now. Really, it's constrained to local cross-traffic and commute times. I've mentally drawn out the 'boundary' in my head based on major cross streets, neighborhoods and proximity to freeways (after that earlier house that was 500' away) so I have a pretty good idea on focusing our search and have been zealously reviewing Redfin day by day.

Generally, what you are suggesting is what we are focusing on more these days (and this has evolved since I started this thread) - my biggest priority is the layout and also no major indicators of issues with the foundation, etc. I've walked into places where we started looking at the layout and were like "this is awkward" - I wouldn't buy even if it were all modernized as far as fixtures since the discussion starts moving towards "you'd have to open up this wall or this wall".
What I meant in my last post was that the paint, flooring, fixtures, and all that stuff are things that aren't going to "make the deal" for me as much as they are 'nice-to-haves.' Although what we've been learning is that these 'nice-to-haves' are what can push the price/bidding war up exponentially. That said, in the current market, even if you find a barebones place that looks horrible and just needs updating, people are still over-bidding on it (there was a fixer listed at $650k that I think went for well above $700k now long ago). On top of that, there's a severe lack of inventory on everything. So regardless of what it is, it seems things are being overbid on by margins of $25-50k on average *at least*.

I get your point about picking a place based on location/layout/plot/etc but what is the "right attitude" when it comes to these homes and getting them move-in ready so we're not living in a dump? Let's say the home has the right layout/plots/locale/etc but the paint is dirt-faded hot pink with stained shag carpet throughout (lol)? I'm presuming those are things most people would want to change out no? Or were you just generally saying "focus on the layout/locale/plot FIRST and take care of all the other things (paint/fixtures/flooring) after you close the deal"?

[former player]

I get your point about picking a place based on location/layout/plot/etc but what is the "right attitude" when it comes to these homes and getting them move-in ready so we're not living in a dump? Let's say the home has the right layout/plots/locale/etc but the paint is dirt-faded hot pink with stained shag carpet throughout (lol)? I'm presuming those are things most people would want to change out no? Or were you just generally saying "focus on the layout/locale/plot FIRST and take care of all the other things (paint/fixtures/flooring) after you close the deal"?

Yes, but up to a point.

1. You are not "most people".  You are you.  Defining your future actions by whatever it is you think "most people" would do is a mistake and one which is preventing you from taking a clear-eyed view of the situation as it applies to you.

2.  A lot of people (a) can't figure out how a property will look without the current decor and furniture, which is why home staging has become such a big thing.  Looking beyond decor/furniture/presentation, all things which are easily changed and one of which (furniture) will be changed for you without you having to do anything at all, puts you ahead of all those people who don't have that ability.

3.  Don't underestimate the difference a deep clean makes.  If by "dirty" paint  you mean "not clean" paint then you need to know that washing a painted wall takes not much time or effort and makes an enormous difference.  Similarly, getting carpets cleaned may not make them look the way you would like but makes them something you can live with - and if not ripping carpet out and living with whatever is underneath them is a viable option too.  You can hire a cleaning company to do a deep clean of an empty house for a few hundred dollars and it can make an enormous difference to how you feel about moving in.

4.  None of the houses you have linked to are what I would describe as a "dump".  They may not be to your taste but that can be solved over time.  If you have a clean space with a functional kitchen and bathroom, no mold and an appropriate level of heating/air conditioning then you are not living in a dump, you are living in a house which you are going to decorate and update to your ideal over a period of time.

5.  If your reaction to the things I've said above is "that's not good enough for me and my family" then you need to be prepared to spend top dollar in a hot market for a house that does meet your decorative standards from the start.  It's a trade-off: if you don't want to make those offers at $100k over asking then the compromise has to be elsewhere and the easiest and cheapest and best in the long run compromise is on the look of a place.

[SunnyDays]

I would assume Former Player meant the last thing.  It's the sensible thing to do, even if it doesn't excite you.  You are going to be overpaying regardless of what kind of property you choose if there is a shortage of homes, so just come to terms with overpaying the least possible.  With homes that are truly turn key, you're paying mostly for the work people have done and not the finishes themselves.  As long as you're talking about basic work (cosmetic), it's not a big deal to do those things yourself over time.  Sure, it would be preferable to have things like carpeting and paint done before you move in, because it's just easier when the house is unfurnished, and this can be done in the week or two before you move in.  It's not something to pay a premium for in a "done" house or assume you'll have to just live with the old stuff.  In general, after watching tons of HGTV, I believe that the majority of people are easily swayed by "pretty" and cannot see past "ugly."  Outdated appliances, old flooring and hot pink walls have no bearing on ANYTHING except what people will automatically reject.  More fool them!

[lhamo]

You are working with an agent, right?   If they haven't told you by now that you do not have to wait until a place is officially on the market to make an offer then they are a pretty crappy agent.

We bought our current place in 2017 when the market in Seattle was extremely hot (though not quite as bad as it is now).  We had already had an offer accepted on another place when the seller (who was using a cheap listing-only agency) decided he didn't want to pay our agent's fee (here in Seattle the seller pays both agents unless otherwise agreed).   That would have been an extra 30-40k and we thought the place was already overpriced so we walked.  We had already backed out of a bidding war on another place that  needed significant work -- it listed for just under 1.2 million and sold at nearly 1.5 with over 10 offers.  Two days after we dropped out of the other place, our agent called to tell us a place in our preferred neighborhood was about to go on the market -- it was a flip she had been keeping her eye on and they had just put up the thing to hang the sign and were finishing up a few details and preparing to list on Friday (this was on Monday).  We hot-tailed it over there, liked it, and talked with her about what we would likely need to offer to get it before they listed.  We offered $40k over what they were planning to list for, pending inspection.   Inspection turned up some issues with the sewer line, which we required them to fix.  Other things looked fairly minor, so we didn't push with them.  Except a $1200 allowance for replacing the water heater -- it was 15 years old, but we are still using it.  Eventually they asked for another $10k because they had underestimated the taxes and fees they would have to pay.  We accepted because we had already ordered replacement flooring and given notice at our rental.  In hindsight we probably overpaid but it is hard to know what a bidding war would have ended up with if we had waited for the house to hit the market.  We have enjoyed the house and paid less than we would have in rent.

Call your agent today and try to see the house before it officially hits the market again.   

[jeromedawg]

I get your point about picking a place based on location/layout/plot/etc but what is the "right attitude" when it comes to these homes and getting them move-in ready so we're not living in a dump? Let's say the home has the right layout/plots/locale/etc but the paint is dirt-faded hot pink with stained shag carpet throughout (lol)? I'm presuming those are things most people would want to change out no? Or were you just generally saying "focus on the layout/locale/plot FIRST and take care of all the other things (paint/fixtures/flooring) after you close the deal"?

Yes, but up to a point.

1. You are not "most people".  You are you.  Defining your future actions by whatever it is you think "most people" would do is a mistake and one which is preventing you from taking a clear-eyed view of the situation as it applies to you.

2.  A lot of people (a) can't figure out how a property will look without the current decor and furniture, which is why home staging has become such a big thing.  Looking beyond decor/furniture/presentation, all things which are easily changed and one of which (furniture) will be changed for you without you having to do anything at all, puts you ahead of all those people who don't have that ability.

3.  Don't underestimate the difference a deep clean makes.  If by "dirty" paint  you mean "not clean" paint then you need to know that washing a painted wall takes not much time or effort and makes an enormous difference.  Similarly, getting carpets cleaned may not make them look the way you would like but makes them something you can live with - and if not ripping carpet out and living with whatever is underneath them is a viable option too.  You can hire a cleaning company to do a deep clean of an empty house for a few hundred dollars and it can make an enormous difference to how you feel about moving in.

4.  None of the houses you have linked to are what I would describe as a "dump".  They may not be to your taste but that can be solved over time.  If you have a clean space with a functional kitchen and bathroom, no mold and an appropriate level of heating/air conditioning then you are not living in a dump, you are living in a house which you are going to decorate and update to your ideal over a period of time.

5.  If your reaction to the things I've said above is "that's not good enough for me and my family" then you need to be prepared to spend top dollar in a hot market for a house that does meet your decorative standards from the start.  It's a trade-off: if you don't want to make those offers at $100k over asking then the compromise has to be elsewhere and the easiest and cheapest and best in the long run compromise is on the look of a place.

Very good qualifying points. It's easy to get caught up with the "new look" homes (and there are a lot of them - way more than not). The ones I hate most, one of which we looked at, are the ones where you can tell they did a half-A job at (like repainting kitchen cabinetry) and then are asking for the premium over. So you're paying a premium for shoddy work. In that sense, I take an "all or none" perspective, leaning towards "none" for the sake of saving more $$$ and DIYing it. For the York Circle property I linked, it's listed at $800k for starters. I'm *guessing* that $850k is what one would have to bid to be "competitive" and even then I'm not sure that's enough. So I don't know if that's a reasonable number to start at. For reference, one of the earlier places I linked (Sara Lane) started at $775k - I'm not sure what it would have been bid up to but we'll find out soon enough. It was dated inside but the layout was fine. If it weren't for the proximity to the freeway, that would have been the house I think. This home looks to be in better condition than that one so $800 feels like they're trying to incite a bidding war potentially.

It's true that none of the homes I linked are dumps - I think if you can find a home that's less than $700-750k in this area, you should expect it to be *somewhat* of a dump though (https://www.redfin.com/CA/Mission-Viejo/23852-Lindley-St-92691/home/4841136 - you can't see from the pics but one of the windows on the side of the garage is completely missing). This is the worst condition home I've seen in this area (at least from the outside... never got to see much of the inside but it didn't look great from when I peered in) which probably isn't saying much.

You are working with an agent, right?   If they haven't told you by now that you do not have to wait until a place is officially on the market to make an offer then they are a pretty crappy agent.

We bought our current place in 2017 when the market in Seattle was extremely hot (though not quite as bad as it is now).  We had already had an offer accepted on another place when the seller (who was using a cheap listing-only agency) decided he didn't want to pay our agent's fee (here in Seattle the seller pays both agents unless otherwise agreed).   That would have been an extra 30-40k and we thought the place was already overpriced so we walked.  We had already backed out of a bidding war on another place that  needed significant work -- it listed for just under 1.2 million and sold at nearly 1.5 with over 10 offers.  Two days after we dropped out of the other place, our agent called to tell us a place in our preferred neighborhood was about to go on the market -- it was a flip she had been keeping her eye on and they had just put up the thing to hang the sign and were finishing up a few details and preparing to list on Friday (this was on Monday).  We hot-tailed it over there, liked it, and talked with her about what we would likely need to offer to get it before they listed.  We offered $40k over what they were planning to list for, pending inspection.   Inspection turned up some issues with the sewer line, which we required them to fix.  Other things looked fairly minor, so we didn't push with them.  Except a $1200 allowance for replacing the water heater -- it was 15 years old, but we are still using it.  Eventually they asked for another $10k because they had underestimated the taxes and fees they would have to pay.  We accepted because we had already ordered replacement flooring and given notice at our rental.  In hindsight we probably overpaid but it is hard to know what a bidding war would have ended up with if we had waited for the house to hit the market.  We have enjoyed the house and paid less than we would have in rent.

Call your agent today and try to see the house before it officially hits the market again.

Good ideas - will try to focus on all the "Coming Soon" listings as well. I think most of the homes we've looked at were already on the market or we just waited to tell our agent. If we did see any coming soon listings and inquired, I think he may have tried contacting them but not sure if he inquired about seeing the place *prior* to the official "go live" date. Even if he did, in this market, I could see most listing agents refusing to allow prospective buyers from coming in earlier and making offers (then pressuring for a quick sale) when they know they'll have a large pool of buyers who they can easily count on for a major bidding war (this is regardless of the condition of the property).

Wait, so are you saying you actually viewed the place (inside and out) prior to it even being listed and made the offer based on that? Or were you only going by what you saw on the outside before making the offer?

My realtor just told me that most realtors avoid showing before the listing is officially "live" because they could get fined by the association if they do that. Maybe this is a CA-specific rule?? I'm wondering if it's related to this, https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/a-real-estate-association-is-cracking-down-on-off-market-properties-heres-what-that-means-for-buyers/2019/11/11/e391c3ae-0013-11ea-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html

[robartsd]

Personally, I prefer to look at ugly houses. My primary reason for preferring an ugly house is that if they didn't do the cosmetic stuff, they are very unlikely to have taken steps to hide important problems behind cosmetic fixes. My secondary reason for preferring an ugly house was that some buyers can't see past ugly so they take themselves out of competing for the house. When we bought our house, we took a couple of days before moving to clean and paint. You can get quite a bit done yourself in evenings and weekends if you plan a week or two between closing and move-in (of course I was married with no kids at the time, so that was easier than your situation). Even if you hire out the work, you probably can get it done reasonably. I would start the process of hiring anyone to do the work as soon as you are under contract - with actual work scheduled to start a few days after closing.

My realtor just told me that most realtors avoid showing before the listing is officially "live" because they could get fined by the association if they do that. Maybe this is a CA-specific rule?? I'm wondering if it's related to this, https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/a-real-estate-association-is-cracking-down-on-off-market-properties-heres-what-that-means-for-buyers/2019/11/11/e391c3ae-0013-11ea-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html

The association is not the government, so it is not CA specific; but professional organizations can have rules for their members and might be able to charge a fine for an infraction. I could see it as bad for professional relationships to show/ask to see properties that are not officially on the market. Certainly if you see a "coming soon" property that you think you'll be interested in, you should discuss it with your agent and your agent should make plans to get you in to see it as soon as it is active and be prepared to submit an offer for you right away.

Similarly, getting carpets cleaned may not make them look the way you would like but makes them something you can live with - and if not ripping carpet out and living with whatever is underneath them is a viable option too.

Depends a lot on what is underneath them. Far too often it is not a suitable floor, so you'd need to put in some sort of flooring. Of course that can be done, but it is considerably more work and expense than just cleaning/painting.

[lhamo]

Wait, so are you saying you actually viewed the place (inside and out) prior to it even being listed and made the offer based on that? Or were you only going by what you saw on the outside before making the offer?

My realtor just told me that most realtors avoid showing before the listing is officially "live" because they could get fined by the association if they do that. Maybe this is a CA-specific rule?? I'm wondering if it's related to this, https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/a-real-estate-association-is-cracking-down-on-off-market-properties-heres-what-that-means-for-buyers/2019/11/11/e391c3ae-0013-11ea-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html

Yes, we saw it -- inside and out -- before it was listed.  The flippers were a husband and wife team and the wife had just gotten her real estate license.  Maybe it was allowed because the listing had not been put into the pipeline yet?   But people (investors mostly) do definitely  buy non-listed properties here, and presumably there, too.   

[jeromedawg]

Wait, so are you saying you actually viewed the place (inside and out) prior to it even being listed and made the offer based on that? Or were you only going by what you saw on the outside before making the offer?

My realtor just told me that most realtors avoid showing before the listing is officially "live" because they could get fined by the association if they do that. Maybe this is a CA-specific rule?? I'm wondering if it's related to this, https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/a-real-estate-association-is-cracking-down-on-off-market-properties-heres-what-that-means-for-buyers/2019/11/11/e391c3ae-0013-11ea-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html

Yes, we saw it -- inside and out -- before it was listed.  The flippers were a husband and wife team and the wife had just gotten her real estate license.  Maybe it was allowed because the listing had not been put into the pipeline yet?   But people (investors mostly) do definitely  buy non-listed properties here, and presumably there, too.

I see... yea I'm not sure how all that stuff works as far as realtors and the contractual agreements they have when posting stuff on MLS or whatever. How did your realtor find out about the deal? Was there a sign? Or was it word of mouth within her network? I've noticed certain realtors have "access" to pre-market listings before they even hit the MLS... and a lot don't.
So since your deal was purchased "off market" did that change the commission fees for your realtors? Was your offer an all-cash offer? Or were there any other contingencies besides inspection?

Just saw this one come up: https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/23141-Tulip-St-92630/home/4832368 (looks like they took the listing back down - the sales history is weird on it. Multiple re-lists/de-lists throughout the past year. Maybe they're looking for an off-market offer but are trying to use MLS to 'advertise' ?)

For the price range, I'm willing to make the trade-off on the commute IF it stays low enough.  I don't know what the condition of the inside is or if there are updates. I found old pics of the inside and those show as super dated, so if they listed according to that, it might explain why it's listed so low (for the area). However, considering this is on Redfin and catching a bunch of eyes, I'm anticipating that to be competitive you have to make an offer in the $775k range or higher. This might be something we're willing to do though even if a lot of the inside is dated... as long as the layout is fine and there are no major issues of course. The other thing I'm not too fond of is having a pool, which is added year over year maintenance and cost. At some point I'd probably just want to have the thing filled in or removed though. Also, I think there may not be any central AC, which I don't think is too big of a deal either IF the price on the home makes sense.

[former player]

Just saw this one come up: https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/23141-Tulip-St-92630/home/4832368 (looks like they took the listing back down - the sales history is weird on it. Multiple re-lists/de-lists throughout the past year. Maybe they're looking for an off-market offer but are trying to use MLS to 'advertise' ?)

For the price range, I'm willing to make the trade-off on the commute IF it stays low enough.  I don't know what the condition of the inside is or if there are updates. I found old pics of the inside and those show as super dated, so if they listed according to that, it might explain why it's listed so low (for the area). However, considering this is on Redfin and catching a bunch of eyes, I'm anticipating that to be competitive you have to make an offer in the $775k range or higher. This might be something we're willing to do though even if a lot of the inside is dated... as long as the layout is fine and there are no major issues of course. The other thing I'm not too fond of is having a pool, which is added year over year maintenance and cost. At some point I'd probably just want to have the thing filled in or removed though. Also, I think there may not be any central AC, which I don't think is too big of a deal either IF the price on the home makes sense.

A couple of thoughts for you on that one -

1.  You say it is dated, but it looks as though it has been beautifully maintained and cared for over a long period of time, which is rather like having a full service history on a second-hand car: it doesn't mean there aren't issues but it does mean that they are less likely and less likely to be expensive.

2.  Take a good look at the inside while mentally stripping away the wallpaper borders, the dated light fixtures and the seller's furniture and curtains.  The basics of this house look pretty good to me: the walls are in good condition and will be easily repainted, the flooring is solid and inoffensive, the kitchen and bathrooms are neutral and functional.  The big potential downside may be location: one of the worst things I think a young family can do is lose family and personal time to a long commute.

[jeromedawg]

Just saw this one come up: https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/23141-Tulip-St-92630/home/4832368 (looks like they took the listing back down - the sales history is weird on it. Multiple re-lists/de-lists throughout the past year. Maybe they're looking for an off-market offer but are trying to use MLS to 'advertise' ?)

For the price range, I'm willing to make the trade-off on the commute IF it stays low enough.  I don't know what the condition of the inside is or if there are updates. I found old pics of the inside and those show as super dated, so if they listed according to that, it might explain why it's listed so low (for the area). However, considering this is on Redfin and catching a bunch of eyes, I'm anticipating that to be competitive you have to make an offer in the $775k range or higher. This might be something we're willing to do though even if a lot of the inside is dated... as long as the layout is fine and there are no major issues of course. The other thing I'm not too fond of is having a pool, which is added year over year maintenance and cost. At some point I'd probably just want to have the thing filled in or removed though. Also, I think there may not be any central AC, which I don't think is too big of a deal either IF the price on the home makes sense.

A couple of thoughts for you on that one -

1.  You say it is dated, but it looks as though it has been beautifully maintained and cared for over a long period of time, which is rather like having a full service history on a second-hand car: it doesn't mean there aren't issues but it does mean that they are less likely and less likely to be expensive.

2.  Take a good look at the inside while mentally stripping away the wallpaper borders, the dated light fixtures and the seller's furniture and curtains.  The basics of this house look pretty good to me: the walls are in good condition and will be easily repainted, the flooring is solid and inoffensive, the kitchen and bathrooms are neutral and functional.  The big potential downside may be location: one of the worst things I think a young family can do is lose family and personal time to a long commute.

You're right - it's not a "dump" by any means and I didn't mean to infer that. The fact that they've kept the pool maintained (assuming these are current pics) speaks volumes.

I think the insides of the house look good too. Again, it's hard to tell just from pics and without seeing the place. It is located by a main artery-road that can get somewhat congested during busier times. El Toro can be irritating to drive down. But you can take cross streets to Alicia or La Paz which aren't as bad. Likely, my wife would have to commute the kids to their school which is probably going to be a 15-20min drive and taking the freeway. These things might be worth the compromise though. We know someone who has commuted her kids from Irvine to the same school and this is easily a 30-40min drive each way depending on traffic. Preferably, we'd like to live a little closer, so we may need to just wait it out and keep our eyes open for dated properties like this. BTW: this one was taken off-market again so I'm not sure what's up or if they immediately got an offer that they accepted upon posting it up on Redfin in the past few hours.

[SunnyDays]

To me, the one on Tulip is totally move in ready.  There’s nothing that NEEDS to be done.  Anything you would change cosmetically is a WANT.  That’s the kind of house you should look for.  The one on Lindley is likely to be as much of a dump on the inside as it is on the outside.  Unless you want lots of work, avoid ones like that.  If you can find something in between these two that has a small commute, then consider that also.  Although, like you say, jobs change.

[lhamo]

Wait, so are you saying you actually viewed the place (inside and out) prior to it even being listed and made the offer based on that? Or were you only going by what you saw on the outside before making the offer?

My realtor just told me that most realtors avoid showing before the listing is officially "live" because they could get fined by the association if they do that. Maybe this is a CA-specific rule?? I'm wondering if it's related to this, https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/a-real-estate-association-is-cracking-down-on-off-market-properties-heres-what-that-means-for-buyers/2019/11/11/e391c3ae-0013-11ea-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html

Yes, we saw it -- inside and out -- before it was listed.  The flippers were a husband and wife team and the wife had just gotten her real estate license.  Maybe it was allowed because the listing had not been put into the pipeline yet?   But people (investors mostly) do definitely  buy non-listed properties here, and presumably there, too.

I see... yea I'm not sure how all that stuff works as far as realtors and the contractual agreements they have when posting stuff on MLS or whatever. How did your realtor find out about the deal? Was there a sign? Or was it word of mouth within her network? I've noticed certain realtors have "access" to pre-market listings before they even hit the MLS... and a lot don't.
So since your deal was purchased "off market" did that change the commission fees for your realtors? Was your offer an all-cash offer? Or were there any other contingencies besides inspection?

Like I said in my original post, my agent had been watching it during the flip -- she lives in my neighborhood which was also our target neighborhood -- and saw them put up the thing they would have hung the for sale sign on, so she asked them and called us immediately to come over and look.   Our offer was all cash, quick close (we could have done it in 7 days if the inspection had come back clean).  Inspector came within 2-3 days of us making the offer.   I think our agent may have agreed to reduce her commission from 3% to 2.5%?  She also walked the flipper/agent/wife through the closing process since this was her first sale. 

Although I do think we probably overpaid (valuations have bounced around since we bought but only now do I think we'd walk away without losing money) I think we benefitted from their lack of sales experience.  They were going to list at $960k.  We offered $1mill.   Ended up closing at $1.01mill with them paying our agent fee, taxes and the sewer line repair (which was about $6k).   

Our agent had HUSTLE.  It is worth it to find one.  If you aren't contractually obligated to continue working with your current guy, I would look back through the last 12 months of sales of houses in your target zone and see whose name keeps popping up as the listing and sales agents.   Call them up and ask what you need to do to get a house in this market.   Our agent gets about 30% of the listings in our neighborhood and her main competitor in her office gets the other 30%.  They know the market intimately, and you should, too.   

[jeromedawg]

Wait, so are you saying you actually viewed the place (inside and out) prior to it even being listed and made the offer based on that? Or were you only going by what you saw on the outside before making the offer?

My realtor just told me that most realtors avoid showing before the listing is officially "live" because they could get fined by the association if they do that. Maybe this is a CA-specific rule?? I'm wondering if it's related to this, https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/a-real-estate-association-is-cracking-down-on-off-market-properties-heres-what-that-means-for-buyers/2019/11/11/e391c3ae-0013-11ea-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html

Yes, we saw it -- inside and out -- before it was listed.  The flippers were a husband and wife team and the wife had just gotten her real estate license.  Maybe it was allowed because the listing had not been put into the pipeline yet?   But people (investors mostly) do definitely  buy non-listed properties here, and presumably there, too.

I see... yea I'm not sure how all that stuff works as far as realtors and the contractual agreements they have when posting stuff on MLS or whatever. How did your realtor find out about the deal? Was there a sign? Or was it word of mouth within her network? I've noticed certain realtors have "access" to pre-market listings before they even hit the MLS... and a lot don't.
So since your deal was purchased "off market" did that change the commission fees for your realtors? Was your offer an all-cash offer? Or were there any other contingencies besides inspection?

Like I said in my original post, my agent had been watching it during the flip -- she lives in my neighborhood which was also our target neighborhood -- and saw them put up the thing they would have hung the for sale sign on, so she asked them and called us immediately to come over and look.   Our offer was all cash, quick close (we could have done it in 7 days if the inspection had come back clean).  Inspector came within 2-3 days of us making the offer.   I think our agent may have agreed to reduce her commission from 3% to 2.5%?  She also walked the flipper/agent/wife through the closing process since this was her first sale. 

Although I do think we probably overpaid (valuations have bounced around since we bought but only now do I think we'd walk away without losing money) I think we benefitted from their lack of sales experience.  They were going to list at $960k.  We offered $1mill.   Ended up closing at $1.01mill with them paying our agent fee, taxes and the sewer line repair (which was about $6k).   

Our agent had HUSTLE.  It is worth it to find one.  If you aren't contractually obligated to continue working with your current guy, I would look back through the last 12 months of sales of houses in your target zone and see whose name keeps popping up as the listing and sales agents.   Call them up and ask what you need to do to get a house in this market.   Our agent gets about 30% of the listings in our neighborhood and her main competitor in her office gets the other 30%.  They know the market intimately, and you should, too.

I think the fact that you had all cash AND were dealing with greenhorn realtor played hugely to your advantage and uniquely to your situation. Maybe that sort of opportunity will pop-up for us but I highly doubt it in this area.
Good pointer on researching agents in the area though. Maybe that's what we'll have to do unless we want to wait for things to calm down. EDIT: I'm on Realtor.com now looking at the last 12 months history on any homes that have sold in the immediate area - LOL, I haven't seen the same realtor's name pop-up more than once so far. On a related note: my realtor mentioned to me the other day that there's a *backlog* of at least 2 months worth of applications for people trying to become realtors.

To me, the one on Tulip is totally move in ready.  There’s nothing that NEEDS to be done.  Anything you would change cosmetically is a WANT.  That’s the kind of house you should look for.  The one on Lindley is likely to be as much of a dump on the inside as it is on the outside.  Unless you want lots of work, avoid ones like that.  If you can find something in between these two that has a small commute, then consider that also.  Although, like you say, jobs change.

Agreed - I think it's move-in ready too. Although that's only based on the few pictures they have up. We of course would want to see the rest of the home too. But yea, any thing you want to do would involve pretty cosmetic things like replacing fixtures, appliances, the yard, etc.
I really wouldn't be surprised if this place get over-bid closer to $900k. Yea the Lindley property seemed like trouble. Aside from dabbling with the excellent turnkey condition properties, we've been keeping our eyes out for local properties in lesser-than-ideal (according to the rest of the local demographic LOL) condition.

[lhamo]

I think you are doing too much guessing and not enough talking with people who can tell you what is up with these houses.

Do you have an exclusive contract with your agent?   If not, then I would call these two people who are on the listing for the Tulip house.  Based on the fact that the second one works for a mortgage company I am guessing it is probably a short sale or a foreclosure or it has a tenant who they can't get out due to covid rules or something of that nature.  Or maybe it is an estate sale where the heirs can't agree on what to do with the property.  But you can ask. 

Or if you feel like this would be undercutting your agent, ask him to do the asking.

https://www.firstteam.com/agent/48912-Jim-Brophy/
https://nw-mortgage.com/paul-balla/

PS:  This First Team agency claims right on their main webpage that they have off-market deals. 

https://www.firstteam.com/

Just did a quick search and another one of their agents had a nice house in Lake Forest close in December for $850k(list price):

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/24231-Grayston-Dr-92630/home/4833171

I'm sure there are more.   

I can't remember the exact statistics but I believe that it is a small percentage of agents who close the majority of deals.  You will save yourself a lot of time and headaches -- and maybe some  money -- if you evaluate at least a few other agents.  Maybe you will stick with the current guy, but you won't know what/who else is out there unless you look.

PS:  Here's another fairly recent First Team sale -- listed for $750, sold for $825:

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/22821-Ridge-Rte-Ln-92630/home/4834933

And another (both First Team agents) -- listed for $780, sold for $785:

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/24061-Parkhill-Rd-92630/home/4835635

[jeromedawg]

I think you are doing too much guessing and not enough talking with people who can tell you what is up with these houses.

Do you have an exclusive contract with your agent?   If not, then I would call these two people who are on the listing for the Tulip house.  Based on the fact that the second one works for a mortgage company I am guessing it is probably a short sale or a foreclosure or it has a tenant who they can't get out due to covid rules or something of that nature.  Or maybe it is an estate sale where the heirs can't agree on what to do with the property.  But you can ask. 

Or if you feel like this would be undercutting your agent, ask him to do the asking.

https://www.firstteam.com/agent/48912-Jim-Brophy/
https://nw-mortgage.com/paul-balla/

PS:  This First Team agency claims right on their main webpage that they have off-market deals. 

https://www.firstteam.com/

Just did a quick search and another one of their agents had a nice house in Lake Forest close in December for $850k(list price):

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/24231-Grayston-Dr-92630/home/4833171

I'm sure there are more.   

I can't remember the exact statistics but I believe that it is a small percentage of agents who close the majority of deals.  You will save yourself a lot of time and headaches -- and maybe some  money -- if you evaluate at least a few other agents.  Maybe you will stick with the current guy, but you won't know what/who else is out there unless you look.

PS:  Here's another fairly recent First Team sale -- listed for $750, sold for $825:

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/22821-Ridge-Rte-Ln-92630/home/4834933

And another (both First Team agents) -- listed for $780, sold for $785:

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Lake-Forest/24061-Parkhill-Rd-92630/home/4835635

What's weird about the Tulip home is that it was taken off the market on Redfin but Realtor.com still lists it as active hahaha. On a whim I went ahead and requested to tour the home and they of course connected me to another broker. Anyway, he's looking into it to see what he can find. That said, I'm not quite sure how to "break the news" to our realtor as he's a friend but also has been helping us for a while now (he helped us sell our place last year) or how to navigate working with multiple realtors in that sense.

[cchrissyy]

Likely, my wife would have to commute the kids to their school which is probably going to be a 15-20min drive and taking the freeway. These things might be worth the compromise though.

Is that number realistic or a best case scenario without traffic? honestly as the mom in the story i think that sounds terrible! i used to drive that long for every dropoff and pickup and evening event was a headache and I'm very glad those days are over.


i have actionable advice for you but it's a mix from other things you've said

1) your realtor is based in another town. this is no good. if you are serious about buying here you need a relator who specializes right here. it's already been a concern you said about getting to proptly see a property versus not wanting to bother him or not being quickly available. and see the poster above with the local expert who acted fast? your guy out of town does not have his finger on the pulse of your target neighborhood. they will never find the hidden gem and they don't know how to advise your bidding based on local market conditions and they don't know any more than you do about what hidden perks or defects a house or neighborhood has.

2) I don't think you should buy this year. your job location is likely to change.  think it is premature for you to evaluate any specific house

3) If you are not tied to this city, and if you ware the option to retire early, your better value is to find mandarin immersion programs in a more affordable area.

4) if you are serious that you value being close to your in laws, 1.5 hours is frankly not close. how often do they even drive up? as they get older it is harder to do. how often can your wife drive down to visit or help them? perhaps being a little further would not have a big impact on frequency of visiting - or - perhaps being significantly closer would increase contact by a lot. I don't know your relationship with them so i don't know which is desirable. I'm just saying if i had a priority of being located near somebody i would not call that a convenient distance that faciliates frequent contact. one side or the other would need to be within, oh, a half hour, before i could thing i was "close" for an easy visit in either direction, and again, with older folks driving gets harder and help on their end of the trip becomes more frequent.

[lhamo]

If you don't have a contract with your current realtor/friend, you just tell him the market is too hot and you need someone local who knows what is coming on market and can jump on things fast.

If you PM me the name/location of your school I might be able to offer more targeted suggestions.  I think I know which one it is but would be better to confirm.

I am not a real estate agent but I play one on the internet ;)  Seriously, though -- my agent has been trying to talk me into getting my license (and being her competition!) because I know how to research properties.   I thought of/did stuff she had never seen a buy do (like one of the reasons we backed out of the bidding war in the expensive neighborhood was that I walked the block below it and figured out that when (not if) the house in front of it sold and got rebuilt we would lose the lovely view that they were asking over 1 million for....)

[jeromedawg]

Likely, my wife would have to commute the kids to their school which is probably going to be a 15-20min drive and taking the freeway. These things might be worth the compromise though.

Is that number realistic or a best case scenario without traffic? honestly as the mom in the story i think that sounds terrible! i used to drive that long for every dropoff and pickup and evening event was a headache and I'm very glad those days are over.


i have actionable advice for you but it's a mix from other things you've said

1) your realtor is based in another town. this is no good. if you are serious about buying here you need a relator who specializes right here. it's already been a concern you said about getting to proptly see a property versus not wanting to bother him or not being quickly available. and see the poster above with the local expert who acted fast? your guy out of town does not have his finger on the pulse of your target neighborhood. they will never find the hidden gem and they don't know how to advise your bidding based on local market conditions and they don't know any more than you do about what hidden perks or defects a house or neighborhood has.

2) I don't think you should buy this year. your job location is likely to change.  think it is premature for you to evaluate any specific house

3) If you are not tied to this city, and if you ware the option to retire early, your better value is to find mandarin immersion programs in a more affordable area.

4) if you are serious that you value being close to your in laws, 1.5 hours is frankly not close. how often do they even drive up? as they get older it is harder to do. how often can your wife drive down to visit or help them? perhaps being a little further would not have a big impact on frequency of visiting - or - perhaps being significantly closer would increase contact by a lot. I don't know your relationship with them so i don't know which is desirable. I'm just saying if i had a priority of being located near somebody i would not call that a convenient distance that faciliates frequent contact. one side or the other would need to be within, oh, a half hour, before i could thing i was "close" for an easy visit in either direction, and again, with older folks driving gets harder and help on their end of the trip becomes more frequent.

My wife was commuting our son to pre-school at the same school every other day pre-COVID - it wasn't that bad for her as she doesn't dislike driving (she often talks about how she thinks she'd really like being an Instacart shopper). But aside from that, gas would really add up.

1) Yea, I may start reaching out to other local realtors and just let him know if things don't pan out. I do have one other person in mind - he heads up a local RE investors/professionals meetup and is in this specific area. Of all people I think he probably would be one who has a pretty good idea of what's going on and where things are headed

2) As far as the job, yea you're probably right. The location could change, although I've been trying to focus my efforts on looking for remote/telework positions. Or if I get an interview for a position that isn't I intend to bring it up as a question. Obviously if the offer is too good to refuse relocation, I'll likely take it. I haven't been hopeful in my job search though - it's drudgery and nearly as frustrating as looking at houses hahaha

3) Right now we really like it here and it would be tough to leave - even though we're not that close to my in-laws, we still see them at least once or twice a month. I've mentioned this on the other thread but Vancouver WA looks like it has a pretty good and comprehensive MIP. Obviously that's not the only factor as demographics and other 'preferences' also come into play. But yes, being relatively close to both sides of the family is still a priority as of now.

4) The driving distance to my in-laws isn't too bad and we see them about once a month currently. We have considered either having them move closer to where we are now (or if we were to buy a home here with an ADU or building one out) OR if we were to move out of state we would potentially ask them to consider moving up there with us. If we moved out of state (and in particular to Vancouver), their entire social network will be gone outside of phone calls and Zoom. Perhaps the next best thing for them is my MIL's sister and family that lives and works up in the Poulsbo/Bainbridge area. My parents (particularly my mom) wouldn't be so fond of the idea either as it's 3-4 hours further away (and much colder) than the current drive... although I don't know when the next time is that they'd actually want to drive given my dad's recent episode of depression/anxiety. They could fly up there and it wouldn't be too bad I suppose. My mom's best friend lives in Seattle as well.
Otherwise, if we were to move and my in-laws refused, it would be *very* difficult for my wife to leave them though. She regularly commuted back and forth from this general area to her parents' almost every weekend throughout her college years, so the 1-1.5 hour drive isn't the biggest concern for her more than it is moving out of state. Currently my in-laws are pretty self-sufficient as far as basic needs and transportation. The healthcare stuff my wife has to act as an intermediary sometimes due to language barriers, etc but she doesn't need to be there in person. The only time where things became a hassle was when she needed to help them with bank account stuff (especially while they were selling the restaurant) and she had to go into the physical bank to sign on as an authorized user, etc.

[Telecaster]

One thing I recommend:  Don't get a fixer unless you enjoy the fixing process.  It can either be great, or it can be a big pain, depending on your view point.  I spent over a year remodeling my kitchen/dining room.  I had a blast, but it was like camping the whole time. 

[jeromedawg]

One thing I recommend:  Don't get a fixer unless you enjoy the fixing process.  It can either be great, or it can be a big pain, depending on your view point.  I spent over a year remodeling my kitchen/dining room.  I had a blast, but it was like camping the whole time.

It was grueling work painting the kitchen cabinets (especially with a little toddler and an infant around). But the satisfaction that came from it was great. Of course, we regretted every little mistake we made and noticed every little flaw. I also enclosed a den "window" opening after first getting married - that was a smaller project but it worked out well and I enjoyed doing that. For the longer projects that are more 'disruptive' (like with drywall dust and scraps laying all over the place) I'm not sure if we would really DIY much of that versus just contracting the work out. Painting cabinets I'd be open to DIYing. Flooring and baseboards I've never tried taking on but could see myself doing. Installing/replacing appliances and bathroom fixtures and vanities I'd be open to doing as well. I've changed multiple faucets and replaced the old oven/range and hood with a newer oven and over-range microwave (this turned out to be a complicated install where I ended up having to build a small 'frame' out of 2x4s to support the weight of the microwave. Some of this was fun but a lot of it was hard work that wasn't particularly "enjoyable" until *after* it was done LOL

[jeromedawg]

Update: we looked at the york circle property today and it was nice. Definitely not full on excellent+ condition turnkey. They updated it with new flooring and paint and also added staging and new pics showing the updates. So this will probably translate to even more frenzy. Not everything is updated like windows, doors, other fixtures etc but the lot is a nice size. it's partially backing a busier street so you can hear some cross traffic but it's not bad. Thing is, it's listed at $800k (technically $799k) and my realtor thinks it'll likely reach $900k. Doesn't sound as worth while now, huh?

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Laguna-Hills/25272-York-Cir-92653/home/4846285


I think sellers are realizing that the 'easy' fixes like flooring and paint and causing more frenzy are directly translating to more aggressive bidding wars/overbidding. This wasn't the case even 6months ago. Now it's just out of control.

The other similarly sized places we looked at that were turnkey+ ended up going for $950-975k at the highest I think. So this place being above average might bring it more it the $900-925k range.

[lhamo]

I think you are being too picky.   I have questions about how you are going to fit a decent fridge into that corner space and actually be able to use it, but the other stuff is minor.  Why do you need new doors?  Handles you can DIY.  Windows, maybe but in your climate it is not a huge deal to have aluminum windows.  Better use of plantings along that long fence would absorb more of the street noise.

I really like the vaulted ceilings.  The bathrooms are not bad either (though I hate pedestal sinks...).  The space has good flow and the yard is great for kids.

I mean, I can see how it hurts to pay $900k+ for something you could have bought for $100k or more less a few months ago.  But that is the current market in your area.   You either choose to play or you wait until the market cools down.

[jeromedawg]

I think you are being too picky.   I have questions about how you are going to fit a decent fridge into that corner space and actually be able to use it, but the other stuff is minor.  Why do you need new doors?  Handles you can DIY.  Windows, maybe but in your climate it is not a huge deal to have aluminum windows.  Better use of plantings along that long fence would absorb more of the street noise.

I really like the vaulted ceilings.  The bathrooms are not bad either (though I hate pedestal sinks...).  The space has good flow and the yard is great for kids.

I mean, I can see how it hurts to pay $900k+ for something you could have bought for $100k or more less a few months ago.  But that is the current market in your area.   You either choose to play or you wait until the market cools down.

Oh the things I mentioned about the windows and doors I was just calling out as not preferable but we would totally live with them. But yes I think it's harder fathoming how quickly this whole thing has exploded... Frankly I see the price going even above $900k though. The fridge corner space is pretty awkward though as you pointed out.

[Zamboni]

I grew up probably 50-100 yards from a major interstate . . . they put up a wooden fence along it and that pretty much damped out the noise.

Normally I'm all about sweat equity, but building materials costs have spiked to absolutely insane high levels suddenly right now. There is a major supply chain problem from Asia, so it is rapidly getting worse. Lumber, hinges, etc. are getting very difficult to buy even for the builders and contractors, and the lead time on appliances has gone up to nearly 4 months. If you want my advice, now is definitely not a good time to buy a fixer upper that really needs anything more than a little elbow grease and some paint.

As long as everything is in working order, I agree with the poster who said it's okay to buy something "dated" and just embrace it rather than "updating." I've learned to love my pink bathroom, and you can too.

Have you read MMM's post about renting vs. buying in Toronto? It might be a similar situation where you are.

[jeromedawg]

I grew up probably 50-100 yards from a major interstate . . . they put up a wooden fence along it and that pretty much damped out the noise.

Normally I'm all about sweat equity, but building materials costs have spiked to absolutely insane high levels suddenly right now. There is a major supply chain problem from Asia, so it is rapidly getting worse. Lumber, hinges, etc. are getting very difficult to buy even for the builders and contractors, and the lead time on appliances has gone up to nearly 4 months. If you want my advice, now is definitely not a good time to buy a fixer upper that really needs anything more than a little elbow grease and some paint.

As long as everything is in working order, I agree with the poster who said it's okay to buy something "dated" and just embrace it rather than "updating." I've learned to love my pink bathroom, and you can too.

Have you read MMM's post about renting vs. buying in Toronto? It might be a similar situation where you are.

It's tough, a lot of sellers are realizing the 'value' in making updates for the sake of trying to force bidding wars. So it's hard finding those "fixer-uppers" which kind of makes sense. During the crash, you'd walk into a lot of properties that were left in meh condition or worse... why would those people care or how could they even afford fixing their place up for a sale if they had already foreclosed right? Now it's a little different - most of the people selling aren't really foreclosing and actually care about 'marketing' their properties and are willing to spend more to make a lot more. That's my theory as to why it's been harder to find the 'deals' out there. Even with "gramps who died and didn't care about updating his property" - his kids/grandkids are likely more than willing to turn the place over with new flooring and fresh paint to get a "quick flip" - we saw this at another property we viewed today: termite damage, probably a new roof needed soon, and who knows what other major issues... yet they put in nice new flooring, either deep cleaned or replaced the carpet, and repainted to make it look like new (nearly all appliances, the kitchen, vanities and fixtures were dated though)

[jeromedawg]

I think you are being too picky.   I have questions about how you are going to fit a decent fridge into that corner space and actually be able to use it, but the other stuff is minor.  Why do you need new doors?  Handles you can DIY.  Windows, maybe but in your climate it is not a huge deal to have aluminum windows.  Better use of plantings along that long fence would absorb more of the street noise.

I really like the vaulted ceilings.  The bathrooms are not bad either (though I hate pedestal sinks...).  The space has good flow and the yard is great for kids.

I mean, I can see how it hurts to pay $900k+ for something you could have bought for $100k or more less a few months ago.  But that is the current market in your area.   You either choose to play or you wait until the market cools down.

I know this is probably a tough question to answer but in our shoes, what price point would you offer for that home given it's current list price of $800k and the assumption that it's actually around $900k?

[Laserjet3051]

I like the York Circle house. But as you may know, I'm a much bigger fan of LN as compared to LH. LHs has some nice pockets however. The York Circle address is very close to the highway and right off Alicia, that specific area sees immense traffic and crowds. Ocean breezes which keep the air clean and cool (especially in summer) in southwern LN will not reach the York Circle address often due to the interference of the big hills just West of you. However, depending where you work, LHs could be beneficial in terms of commute. Youll also be super close to the LH mall and associated mega-commercial complexes surrounding it. OTOH, access to Aliso-Woods Wilderness (and surrounding wilderness areas) is still close for hiking, biking, etc, if your into that sort of thing. There can be literally a 25°F temp difference between neighborhoods in LN/LH/DP in summer which is far from trivial and contributes to lifestyle quality IMHO. I did say though that I liked the York property and with new building in S. OC being almost zero, holding this propertry over the long haul is almost certainly guaranteed to pay off.

[lhamo]

I think you are being too picky.   I have questions about how you are going to fit a decent fridge into that corner space and actually be able to use it, but the other stuff is minor.  Why do you need new doors?  Handles you can DIY.  Windows, maybe but in your climate it is not a huge deal to have aluminum windows.  Better use of plantings along that long fence would absorb more of the street noise.

I really like the vaulted ceilings.  The bathrooms are not bad either (though I hate pedestal sinks...).  The space has good flow and the yard is great for kids.

I mean, I can see how it hurts to pay $900k+ for something you could have bought for $100k or more less a few months ago.  But that is the current market in your area.   You either choose to play or you wait until the market cools down.

I know this is probably a tough question to answer but in our shoes, what price point would you offer for that home given it's current list price of $800k and the assumption that it's actually around $900k?

See, that's the thing -- if I were in your shoes there is no way I would be buying a house that expensive, at least not until I knew what my job situation was going to be for the next 2-5 years.

I mean, you bid what you think it is worth and what you are willing to pay.  Maybe in your case that is only $825 or $850.  Maybe you really want it and are willing to go up to $900,150 or $901,088 (slap a series of 8s on for luck?).  Are you/is your agent willing to do an escalation clause?  You could offer $850 with escalations of $1088) or whatever your agent thinks is a smart interval) up to your absolute max.  My sister got her condo with an escalation clause using an unusual number, but she put in an offer over a holiday weekend and there was only one other offer.

I would not buy it without a thorough inspection.

Looking at recent sales nearby, I think it is highly unlikely that one will go for under $900k.

This one only has two proper bedrooms because the third has been turned into an office.  Sold a few weeks ago for $867   

This one also sold recently for $955.   Quite a bit larger.  Listing photos taken down already:

https://www.redfin.comhttps://www.redfin.com/CA/Laguna-Hills/25021-Mawson-Dr-92653/home/4843658

This one sold in October for $900k.  Really nice.  Probably would go for $950 or  more now:

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Laguna-Hills/25202-Stockport-St-92653/home/4846240

Did you look at this one? Only 3 br, but much more affordable price point. No yard to speak of but it only has one attached wall.  HOA fees are a bit high, and one sale fell through already.

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Laguna-Hills/10-Briar-Creek-Ln-92653/unit-29/home/5693567

[jeromedawg]

I think you are being too picky.   I have questions about how you are going to fit a decent fridge into that corner space and actually be able to use it, but the other stuff is minor.  Why do you need new doors?  Handles you can DIY.  Windows, maybe but in your climate it is not a huge deal to have aluminum windows.  Better use of plantings along that long fence would absorb more of the street noise.

I really like the vaulted ceilings.  The bathrooms are not bad either (though I hate pedestal sinks...).  The space has good flow and the yard is great for kids.

I mean, I can see how it hurts to pay $900k+ for something you could have bought for $100k or more less a few months ago.  But that is the current market in your area.   You either choose to play or you wait until the market cools down.

I know this is probably a tough question to answer but in our shoes, what price point would you offer for that home given it's current list price of $800k and the assumption that it's actually around $900k?

See, that's the thing -- if I were in your shoes there is no way I would be buying a house that expensive, at least not until I knew what my job situation was going to be for the next 2-5 years.

I mean, you bid what you think it is worth and what you are willing to pay.  Maybe in your case that is only $825 or $850.  Maybe you really want it and are willing to go up to $900,150 or $901,088 (slap a series of 8s on for luck?).  Are you/is your agent willing to do an escalation clause?  You could offer $850 with escalations of $1088) or whatever your agent thinks is a smart interval) up to your absolute max.  My sister got her condo with an escalation clause using an unusual number, but she put in an offer over a holiday weekend and there was only one other offer.

I would not buy it without a thorough inspection.

Looking at recent sales nearby, I think it is highly unlikely that one will go for under $900k.

This one only has two proper bedrooms because the third has been turned into an office.  Sold a few weeks ago for $867   

This one also sold recently for $955.   Quite a bit larger.  Listing photos taken down already:

https://www.redfin.comhttps://www.redfin.com/CA/Laguna-Hills/25021-Mawson-Dr-92653/home/4843658

This one sold in October for $900k.  Really nice.  Probably would go for $950 or  more now:

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Laguna-Hills/25202-Stockport-St-92653/home/4846240

Did you look at this one? Only 3 br, but much more affordable price point. No yard to speak of but it only has one attached wall.  HOA fees are a bit high, and one sale fell through already.

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Laguna-Hills/10-Briar-Creek-Ln-92653/unit-29/home/5693567

Looks like York was taken off the market - my realtor thinks it could just be them taking it down to stop the influx of showing requests.

I'm still considering making the lower $850k offer but at the same time it sort of feels like a waste of everyone's time putting in an offer no less than $900k lol. I mean, does it even make sense to offer what you think it's worth with the assumption that it's not going to be competitive?

As far as the inspection is concerned what we would do is remove the contingency barring major health & safety issues and still do an inspection to check all that. If something major pops up that the seller won't negotiate on (per the major health & safety clause), we can justify backing out via loan contingency because the money that has to be spent on those repairs comes out of the downpayment amount ultimately impacts the loan.

Otherwise at this point I think we're just going to have to sit it out and wait for things to cool down. The idea of renting for the next few years in this area frankly just sucks (as far as pricing is concerned). We may look for the next best option that's a slightly larger 2/2 or 3/2 and may consider moving to another city with cheaper rents (like Lake Forest). At some point I think we're just going to be convinced that it's not worth living in this area and we'll make the compromise to move to Vancouver. That said, I think a road trip up that way is in order (or perhaps flying in once we are vaccinated and COVID further settles down).   

[SunnyDays]

I think it’s wise to wait.  With an uncertain job, in laws who might not be able to work a lot longer and the ridiculous housing prices, it’s probably best not to get tied to anything right now.  Renting seems reasonable for the time being.  Meanwhile, save up the difference between rent and what a house would cost you and you’ll have a higher down payment when the time comes to buy.  By then, the house price craziness will hopefully settle down.