Rentback situation - rat/mouse in the house, and moldy wall

[jeromedawg]

Hey all,

So we went over to our new place today to get another quote for termite fumigation as well as a quote to fix a wall that has some moisture in it with mold (Aspergillus/Penicillium) discovered.

The guy checking/measuring the wall confirmed that the wall is still moist but the readings I don't think were as high as they were while the owners were still regularly running the irrigation (they turned it off a few weeks back after we told them to upon closing escrow). He also observed rat or mouse droppings in different areas of the house (in the living room area and in some kitchen cabinets and said they appear to be fresh). We didn't see these before but the sellers who are currently renting back have started storing a lot of personal items in the living room area staging it for when they move out. They have a dog so I think they leave one of the French doors in the back open often, even when they leave. And they also leave the garage door open often. So it seems they've allowed one or more rats or mice inside (the droppings look bigger so I'm thinking a rat).
Presumably the fumigation will take care of whatever came inside.
But other than that, is this something where we might have any sort of recourse? Like getting the sellers to pay for a deep clean of the house in light of this - it's pretty filthy in there, all things considered. When we moved out of our place we made sure to vacuum and clean as much as we could - I figured it was more a common-courtesy thing though.

The other thing is that the termite guy who came out seemed to have an opinion about the "moldy" wall and went off on a tangent about "mold vs mildew" and while "mold" is serious, "mildew" isn't as serious. In his opinion (of course, as a termite guy), because mildew isn't a big deal just open up some holes in the wall to let it dry out and maybe spray the mildew down and cut out any of the insulation that was impacted and let it be.... no need to turn this into a big ordeal with a remediation company sealing the area off, opening up walls, running fan & dehumidifiers 24x7, etc. He was talking about there not actually being a weep-screed in the front and the reason the wall had moisture build-up was because the wall couldn't "breathe" on that side of the home, coupled with the irrigation the owners were running. He was going into detail about it so it sounded like he knew what he was looking at and has seen a lot of these kinds of things even though he works for a termite company.

What are your guys' thoughts on the whole mold remediation thing? Should I just try opening up that part of the wall myself to 'investigate'? I wouldn't really even know what to be looking for...

[SunnyDays]

Re the mice/rats (there’s never just one), even getting the people to deep clean the house won’t necessarily get rid of them, as they could get into the walls or attic.  Plus one person’s idea of clean isn’t always another’s.  After they’ve moved out, I would either deep clean it myself or get professional cleaners to do it and put mouse and rat traps around the house for a week or so.  I don’t know if termite fumigation would kill rodents.

For the mold/mildew, you could just open up the damp walls yourself and take a look/smell.  Either type of fungus should be readily apparent.  Any kind of coating on the back of the drywall, studs or insulation is suspicious.  Look for either black, green, grey or white fuzziness of any depth.  If you find some, keep removing the drywall until you get to normal looking areas.  Start in the centre of a damp spot and work outwards in all directions.  If you find lots of such areas or one that’s bigger than about 3’ x 3’ it might be wise to get it professionally removed because inhaling a lot of mold spores is harmful and you don’t want to release them into the rest of the house.  If you decide to tackle it yourself, wear a mask and gloves and wet it all down with pure vinegar, hydrogen peroxide or bleach and water.  Wipe with a rough rag, let it dry and do it again if needed.  Leave the wall open for awhile to dry out thoroughly then replace the insulation.  Make sure you properly address the source of the moisture.

[jeromedawg]

Re the mice/rats (there’s never just one), even getting the people to deep clean the house won’t necessarily get rid of them, as they could get into the walls or attic.  Plus one person’s idea of clean isn’t always another’s.  After they’ve moved out, I would either deep clean it myself or get professional cleaners to do it and put mouse and rat traps around the house for a week or so.  I don’t know if termite fumigation would kill rodents.

For the mold/mildew, you could just open up the damp walls yourself and take a look/smell.  Either type of fungus should be readily apparent.  Any kind of coating on the back of the drywall, studs or insulation is suspicious.  Look for either black, green, grey or white fuzziness of any depth.  If you find some, keep removing the drywall until you get to normal looking areas.  Start in the centre of a damp spot and work outwards in all directions.  If you find lots of such areas or one that’s bigger than about 3’ x 3’ it might be wise to get it professionally removed because inhaling a lot of mold spores is harmful and you don’t want to release them into the rest of the house.  If you decide to tackle it yourself, wear a mask and gloves and wet it all down with pure vinegar, hydrogen peroxide or bleach and water.  Wipe with a rough rag, let it dry and do it again if needed.  Leave the wall open for awhile to dry out thoroughly then replace the insulation.  Make sure you properly address the source of the moisture.

True, I was thinking fumigation should occur prior anyway before cleaning. If they tent the house and fumigate, the gases will pretty much kill all living things (not just termites) as long as the gas can get into contact with those things. It sounds like the percentage of fumigation *not* killing anything is very small. But yea, either way we're planning to deep clean the floors and tubs/showers, and reseal the grout as well (and maybe steam-sanitize the toilets and sinks) ourselves and then have a cleaning lady finish up on all of the above (except maybe flooring) and final touches. I'll likely continue looking for signs of droppings and be on stand-by for buying more rat traps too.

Fortunately, opening up the wall to take a look I think may not be too difficult as I would anticipate removing the baseboard and then removing the long piece of drywall they replaced in order to get a look. We've had them stop the irrigation to the area in front of the house so it shouldn't be making things worse at the moment. Once we remediate the interior wall, however we decide to, we're going to fill in the dirt/soil area in front with gravel/rocks or possibly just clear it all and pour cement in so the soil isn't up against the exterior wall like that. That part of the front and then the adjacent side (entire length) has soil/mulch right up against the wall so that just seems like a bad idea overall given what we've found out already.

[MayDay]

Having dealt with mold in a wall I would just pull off drywall until you find a dry area and see what the situation is. Wear a respirator and do it before you move in, and clean after (although that's probably overkill). When we had the issue we sprayed the studs with bleach, let them thoroughly dry out, reinstalled drywall, and addressed the cause of the moisture... And didn't have any other problems.

[Metalcat]

If fumigation kills rodents, then you want to deal with the rodents first, because you DO NOT want dozens of dead rodent carcasses stuck in your walls.

They stink SO BAD and for SO LONG.

Rat droppings are enormous compared to mouse droppings, they're little ovals about the size of raisins. Although roof rats do have smaller droppings.

You will almost never have rats and mice in the same house, mice are terrified of rats and won't feel safe living somewhere they can smell rats. However, if you have one rat, you have A LOT of rats, and they are much harder to get rid of than mice because they're about a million times smarter and more resourceful.

If the previous owners are now your renters, you can absolutely insist that they close their doors when leaving the house. This is a basic security issue. Granted, I don't know how the laws work where you live, but if you own the house, you should be able to dictate this.

Now if they'll abide by your rule? That's another matter.

If the laws allow you to, then I would start dealing with the rodents while the previous owners are still living there. A rat colony can grow in size at an astronomical rate, they are obligatory communal animals, and once one sends out a message that they have a nice, cozy, safe home, their friends will join. Rats, unlike mice, can never, ever have enough friends to live with. Unlike almost every other type of mammal, they loooooove each other and never self limit their numbers. And they can have litters every 3 weeks, so if they can't find friends, they will make them.

So yeah, figure out fast if you have rats, and deal with them ASAP.

[jeromedawg]

Having dealt with mold in a wall I would just pull off drywall until you find a dry area and see what the situation is. Wear a respirator and do it before you move in, and clean after (although that's probably overkill). When we had the issue we sprayed the studs with bleach, let them thoroughly dry out, reinstalled drywall, and addressed the cause of the moisture... And didn't have any other problems.

Is an N95 mask and goggles going to cut it? Or do I need to go full Bane (well, technically he's not wearing goggles lol)?


Did you do like a 50/50 solution of bleach/water or did you just get one of those off-the-shelf bottles like Lysol Mold & Mildew foaming cleanser?


In terms of doing all this before moving in, I'm not sure we'll be able to - we are pressed on time as our move-in date is 10/10 and we have to clear our apt out by 10/13. The sellers are moving out on 10/2 so we only have that prior week which is dedicated to fumigation (this is going to happen 10/4-10/6, getting new carpet installed upstairs and cleaning the place before we move in. The original plan was to address the mold after we move in and I wasn't as concerned since, if we were going to have a company come in to do it, they would seal the area off. In terms of DIYing it I'm not sure - I'd be afraid of opening up the wall cavity and potentially spreading spores around just by doing that. I suppose I can plug a a couple of my air cleaners/purifiers in around that area and put a MERV11 air filter in the furnace...

If fumigation kills rodents, then you want to deal with the rodents first, because you DO NOT want dozens of dead rodent carcasses stuck in your walls.

They stink SO BAD and for SO LONG.

Rat droppings are enormous compared to mouse droppings, they're little ovals about the size of raisins. Although roof rats do have smaller droppings.

You will almost never have rats and mice in the same house, mice are terrified of rats and won't feel safe living somewhere they can smell rats. However, if you have one rat, you have A LOT of rats, and they are much harder to get rid of than mice because they're about a million times smarter and more resourceful.

If the previous owners are now your renters, you can absolutely insist that they close their doors when leaving the house. This is a basic security issue. Granted, I don't know how the laws work where you live, but if you own the house, you should be able to dictate this.

Now if they'll abide by your rule? That's another matter.

If the laws allow you to, then I would start dealing with the rodents while the previous owners are still living there. A rat colony can grow in size at an astronomical rate, they are obligatory communal animals, and once one sends out a message that they have a nice, cozy, safe home, their friends will join. Rats, unlike mice, can never, ever have enough friends to live with. Unlike almost every other type of mammal, they loooooove each other and never self limit their numbers. And they can have litters every 3 weeks, so if they can't find friends, they will make them.

So yeah, figure out fast if you have rats, and deal with them ASAP.

Yea, my wife was wondering what would happen if we fumigate and kill the rodents and they're stuck in the walls? The termite guy kind of just shrugged his shoulders and said "it'll stink for a little while" lol

Here are pics of the droppings btw:
Living room:


Closer-up:


The termite guy was skeptical saying "those could have fallen out of the couch as they were moving stuff into the living room..." - of course, he was the same guy saying that mold inspectors/remediation companies overstate what "mold" is and in his opinion it's likely that there's just some harmless mildew that won't do much if anything to you (he was basically saying just to be careful with the "mold experts" because they're obviously trying to sell you something...)

Under kitchen cabinet:


Zoomed in:

[cchrissyy]

ok good it's mice

i agree in your new position as the landlord you can start doing maintenance, such as announcing you have hired somebody to come deal with the mice. (meaning, set traps)

[clarkfan1979]

Do you have a lease with specific terms for the lease back? I'm guessing no. They are technically renting, but they are not going behave like they are renting. They are going to behave like it's their house.

My aunt bought a house 5 years ago from someone and they did a two week lease back. The women was elderly and needed some extra time to move out. However, she refused to pay rent for the two weeks. According to her, it was her house. The listing agent paid the two weeks rent to get the deal done.

[jeromedawg]

ok good it's mice

i agree in your new position as the landlord you can start doing maintenance, such as announcing you have hired somebody to come deal with the mice. (meaning, set traps)

Oh wow, how can you tell? Just by the size of the droppings from the pics?



Per my recollection, these were closer to the size of rice droppings or bigger. So unless it's a larger mouse, it almost seems like it could be a rat (or smaller rat). You'd think I would know all this stuff by now... https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-do-i-get-rid-of-this-(roof-rat)/ LOL

Do you have a lease with specific terms for the lease back? I'm guessing no. They are technically renting, but they are not going behave like they are renting. They are going to behave like it's their house.

My aunt bought a house 5 years ago from someone and they did a two week lease back. The women was elderly and needed some extra time to move out. However, she refused to pay rent for the two weeks. According to her, it was her house. The listing agent paid the two weeks rent to get the deal done.

There was an agreement - most of it was just them agreeing to leave the home in the condition it was in before/during the home was sold and also that the tenants are agreeing to live there at their own risk knowing there is a mold issue, etc.

[Metalcat]

To me that looks like rat droppings.

Mouse droppings are very small and tend to have pointed ends.

It's not easy to tell the size from the photos because there's nothing really for scale, but I'm definitely leaning towards rat. And I've spent far too much of my life handling rat and mouse poop.

[jeromedawg]

To me that looks like rat droppings.

Mouse droppings are very small and tend to have pointed ends.

It's not easy to tell the size from the photos because there's nothing really for scale, but I'm definitely leaning towards rat. And I've spent far too much of my life handling rat and mouse poop.

I lean towards rat as well... I should have put a quarter or penny down, but I'd say the droppings in the photos are *at least* the size of long-grain or basmati rice grains

[Metalcat]

To me that looks like rat droppings.

Mouse droppings are very small and tend to have pointed ends.

It's not easy to tell the size from the photos because there's nothing really for scale, but I'm definitely leaning towards rat. And I've spent far too much of my life handling rat and mouse poop.

I lean towards rat as well... I should have put a quarter or penny down, but I'd say the droppings in the photos are *at least* the size of long-grain or basmati rice grains

I would get someone in asap to check.

[SunnyDays]

I believe that rats also urinate everywhere they go.  So the house will be in need of a good cleaning.  Judging from the look of that cabinet, it would need it anyway, rats or not.

[Metalcat]

I believe that rats also urinate everywhere they go.  So the house will be in need of a good cleaning.  Judging from the look of that cabinet, it would need it anyway, rats or not.

Yep, they dribble while they walk. They also can't see very well, so they walk along walls, leaving rat fur grease along the wall.

[cchrissyy]

Oh wow, how can you tell? Just by the size of the droppings from the pics?

hm well i could be wrong but the reason i said mice is that i have dealt with mice before and the droppings looked exactly like that. whereas, i have no experience with rats.

but it's hard to know from photos and i'm quite outvoted by the posters above!

[jeromedawg]

Oh wow, how can you tell? Just by the size of the droppings from the pics?

hm well i could be wrong but the reason i said mice is that i have dealt with mice before and the droppings looked exactly like that. whereas, i have no experience with rats.

but it's hard to know from photos and i'm quite outvoted by the posters above!

Only one way to find out! Well, maybe multiple ways haha... maybe the mice you dealt with were the bigger variety? Possibly field mice. I'm guessing those will leave behind bigger droppings.

[Metalcat]

Oh wow, how can you tell? Just by the size of the droppings from the pics?

hm well i could be wrong but the reason i said mice is that i have dealt with mice before and the droppings looked exactly like that. whereas, i have no experience with rats.

but it's hard to know from photos and i'm quite outvoted by the posters above!

Not really, it's just me and the OP who think it's rat poop.

But he's had rats before, and I've handled the poop of literally thousands upon thousands of rats and mice. Weird flex, I know, but I am, in fact, a rat and mouse subject matter expert, lol. Not the house kind, the science kind.

Even then, I'm not 100% certain because there's nothing for scale.

[clarkfan1979]

To me that looks like rat droppings.

Mouse droppings are very small and tend to have pointed ends.

It's not easy to tell the size from the photos because there's nothing really for scale, but I'm definitely leaning towards rat. And I've spent far too much of my life handling rat and mouse poop.

I lean towards rat as well... I should have put a quarter or penny down, but I'd say the droppings in the photos are *at least* the size of long-grain or basmati rice grains

Would that be the size of a European Basmati Rice Grain or an African Basmati Rice Grain? (this is a semi-weird movie reference)

[Metalcat]

To me that looks like rat droppings.

Mouse droppings are very small and tend to have pointed ends.

It's not easy to tell the size from the photos because there's nothing really for scale, but I'm definitely leaning towards rat. And I've spent far too much of my life handling rat and mouse poop.

I lean towards rat as well... I should have put a quarter or penny down, but I'd say the droppings in the photos are *at least* the size of long-grain or basmati rice grains

Would that be the size of a European Basmati Rice Grain or an African Basmati Rice Grain? (this is a semi-weird movie reference)

Not even a remotely weird reference.

[Villanelle]

ok good it's mice

i agree in your new position as the landlord you can start doing maintenance, such as announcing you have hired somebody to come deal with the mice. (meaning, set traps)

Oh wow, how can you tell? Just by the size of the droppings from the pics?



Per my recollection, these were closer to the size of rice droppings or bigger. So unless it's a larger mouse, it almost seems like it could be a rat (or smaller rat). You'd think I would know all this stuff by now... https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-do-i-get-rid-of-this-(roof-rat)/ LOL

Do you have a lease with specific terms for the lease back? I'm guessing no. They are technically renting, but they are not going behave like they are renting. They are going to behave like it's their house.

My aunt bought a house 5 years ago from someone and they did a two week lease back. The women was elderly and needed some extra time to move out. However, she refused to pay rent for the two weeks. According to her, it was her house. The listing agent paid the two weeks rent to get the deal done.

There was an agreement - most of it was just them agreeing to leave the home in the condition it was in before/during the home was sold and also that the tenants are agreeing to live there at their own risk knowing there is a mold issue, etc.

Is there a signed agreement?  Is it an actual lease of any kind? Is so, what, specifically does it say about the condition of the property?  Did you have an RE agent?  Generally a rent-back-er is just the same as a renter, really.  But if you don't have a lease with any specifics, then things get pretty muddy.  Presumably, your local laws would apply at a minimum, but that may not be enough.  My lease, for example, says that as a tenant, I am responsible for pest control so if there was evidence of rats, I would need to pay for extermination, even if it was found weeks before my lease ended.  I am also responsible for leaving the place clean, although without a specific lease, that too is vague if there is no walk-through that details the condition of the property when the 'lease' started. 

[jeromedawg]

For the agreement it was signed but nothing about pests and rodents. It does say the property needs to be in the condition it was originally in.

"3. SELLER'S OBLIGATIONS FOR CONDITION OF PROPERTY:
A. MAINTENANCE: Seller shall maintain the Property, including pool, spa, landscaping and grounds, and all personal property
included in the sale in substantially the same condition as on the date of Acceptance of the Agreement or as modified by the
Agreement. Except as provided in the Agreement, Seller shall not make alterations to the Property without Buyer's written consent."

Basmati rice makes for pretty decent Spanish rice btw.