Please help with scripts for getting a tenant to move out peacefully- HE'S OUT!!

[Sibley]

Situation:
My parents own a duplex, live downstairs, rent out upstairs.
The current tenant is a good guy, clean, neat, has a very nice and well behaved dog. He's been out of work due to Covid, can't pay the rent, etc. Before he lost his job was always on time with rent payment. Lease is month to month.
Parents are retiring, selling the house and moving. New owners whoever they are will likely rent for $1800-2k a month. Parent's rent is around $1100.
Dad talked to the tenant, let him know that they need him to vacate by 3/15 because they're selling the house. Tenant's response was something like "that's not going to happen".

Now, I'm really hoping that the tenant just had a poor in the moment response, and will have since reflected/researched and won't cause problems. But, someone needs to talk to him regardless, and I'm unfortunately it. Tenant has never really talked to mom about rental stuff, only dad. But dad has dementia and his emotional intelligence side has been decimated. Mom is too stressed, she's a loose cannon. It's me.

The approach we're going to take is:
1. make sure he understands that the eviction moratorium does not apply - he's not being evicted for nonpayment of rent, he's being asked to move out because they're selling the house, and he got more than the minimum 30 days notice.
2. If he vacates by 3/15 without trashing the place, parents will forgive the debt (he owes something like $6-8k in back rent)

and last ditch,
3. If he vacates by 3/15 without trashing the place, parents will pay him some money. Maybe like $5k.

What I need from you guys: wording. Scripts of how you might say this stuff, in a emotionally intelligent, sympathetic way. I'm bad at coming up with words in the moment, but if I have read potential words then that helps me a LOT. Please help me with potential words.

[ctuser1]

I'd very much doubt you can evict because you are selling the house. It would depend on local laws - but after the '08 foreclosure crisis most localities bolstered the renters protections in situations where the ownership changes hands.

If he has told you "that's not going to happen" - then I doubt peaceful mechanism's exist at this point. Did he actually say those words? His attitude in this case will likely matter a lot.

First decide if he is an unfortunate soul who deserves your sympathy and if you can/should/would work with him. If the answer is yes, talk to him and then decide if you can get something that way.
Else, read your lease agreement, understand that thoroughly, and lawyer up.
In the later case, please don't talk to him before you have actually lawyered up and understood your options in your local area.

[SunnyDays]

Unless evictions are still banned due to Covid, you could simply start those proceedings.  There's zero chance he's going to agree to move if he can't pay any rent, no matter how nice you are to him.  You don't need a lawyer for this, just knowledge of your local residential tenancy board rules.  Or you could just sell the house from under him and let the new owners deal with it.  I see listings all the time where it says "current renters would like to stay."

[BabyShark]

I don't think talking to a lawyer would hurt, unless you're very clear on the options.  I'm guessing you'll have trouble selling the place with a tenant who hasn't paid rent in 6 months or however long it's been.

If dad has dementia and trouble with emotional intelligence at the moment, the response may have been lost in translation.  May be worth you trying to clear up the conversation with the tenant first, before figuring out next steps.

[NonprofitER]

I feel your pain. I'm a very empathetic person too - but I've learned from being a landlord over the past couple years that its better to have any and all written communication be very 1) authoritative sounding, and 2) short/simple to understand when dealing with difficult tenants.

IE -

As previously discussed, we are giving you 60 days to vacate the property, per our month-to-month lease agreement: ______(quote lease agreement clause about termination of lease if possible).

In recognition of this difficult time for property owners and tenants alike, the homeowner will provide written relief of your backdated rent owed (effectively clearing your tenancy debt), provided you meet all of the following conditions:

• Property is vacated and cleaned by ________ (date)
• You notify us in writing of the date/time the home is vacant to schedule a walkthrough final inspection
• Keys/garage door openers are returned to _______ (address) by _______ (same date as above)
• A forwarding address has been provided to us for the return of your deposit, if applicable

If you fail to meet these conditions, and continue to not comply with the move-out request per the lease agreement clause ____, then:

• The property owners will file a Notice to Vacate (or whatever the step is called in your state). Failure to move out by the date on the notice will result in eviction proceedings. Eviction proceedings will negatively impact your credit and rental history and will hamper your ability to rent or purchase future homes. It is in everyone's best interest to avoid eviction.
• You would still be financially responsible for the terms of the lease, including back payment of rent in the amount of _______ . The homeowner may file a small claims lawsuit, seek judgement, or otherwise report the outstanding debt owed to tenant and credit reporting agencies, as allowed by law.

This is just an idea of how straightforward you need to be with tenants like this. There are no back and forth text message exchanges. No engaging in drama. Just continually pointing to a very simple, "If this, then that" written letter. When the tenant inevitably tries to pull you into conversation about it, just reiterate that all communication must be written (email is fine, probably, check your state/locality).  As a property owner/landlord (or in this case, a representative of your parents as owners), reiterate that your hands are tied. "I have to follow all the policies and procedures as outlined by fair housing laws, local regulations, and the lease agreement. Sorry, by law that's what I have to do. These are the steps.... " . Just say it again and again and he will eventually get the picture.

This may takes months longer than you want it to, depending on where the duplex is located. But perseverance and a cool head will win out eventually as long as you are following all the legal steps in your jurisdiction and you are documenting everything correctly along the way.

[draco44]

If he doesn't want to move and you have the power to make him move, if you aren't prepared to continue renting to him, the kindest type of communication is clear communication. Clarity about what process you are following and what his required actions are.

You say the tenant is on a month-to-month lease. Regardless of other circumstances like non-payment, in many jurisdictions that would mean you simply need to give 30 or 60 days notice end the tenancy agreement. Just follow the law and be business-like in any communications. Get everything in writing. If instead of a regular lease termination you plan to serve them something else like an unconditional quit notice, that's a different process. You may find this website handy as an overview of your options: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/renters-rights-book/chapter9-3.html But everything is specific to the law where you are located, including any COVID requirements in your area. And your lease agreement.

[Sibley]

Yes, the very proper legal-ese letter was written, reviewed by an attorney and delivered as appropriate . I failed to mention that in my original post, sorry. My sister handled that side, but she's not going to be physically present this weekend and I am.

Yes, they can tell him to move out. The place is being sold, he's on a month to month lease. All the covid moratoriums in the world don't protect you when your lease ends - and as long as they give him 30 days notice, he has to move. They gave more notice than necessary. The fact that he can't pay the rent is immaterial, legally.

Yes, lawyer has been consulted. They're in the clear. We would prefer not to go down the nasty eviction route, but we will if we have to. Me talking to the guy is an attempt to avoid having to do the nasty route.

NonprofitER, thanks. This wording gives me something to go on. Let's hope this guy has had a chance to reflect and realize that as much as the situation sucks, he doesn't have an option and will cooperate.

[Sibley]

If he doesn't want to move and you have the power to make him move, if you aren't prepared to continue renting to him, the kindest type of communication is clear communication. Clarity about what process you are following and what his required actions are.

You say the tenant is on a month-to-month lease. Regardless of other circumstances like non-payment, in many jurisdictions that would mean you simply need to give 30 or 60 days notice end the tenancy agreement. Just follow the law and be business-like in any communications. Get everything in writing. If instead of a regular lease termination you plan to serve them something else like an unconditional quit notice, that's a different process. You may find this website handy as an overview of your options: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/renters-rights-book/chapter9-3.html But everything is specific to the law where you are located, including any COVID requirements in your area. And your lease agreement.

Yeah, normal ending the lease please move out type thing. I'm not the legal side of the team here, just sent a message asking for the info. I am very much a fan of clear, concise communication. (I have no desire to be a landlord. Too much hassle.)

[bacchi]

To entice the tenant, you can inform him that you'll increase the security deposit to (rent owed + $500) or whatever. Then specify that, after pulling out rent owed and damages, the remainder will given to him.

This not only ensures that he doesn't trash the place but also dangles a large amount of money in front of him, even if it's immediately clawed back due to owed rent.

Clear that ^^^ with a lawyer.

[Villanelle]

I'd very much doubt you can evict because you are selling the house. It would depend on local laws - but after the '08 foreclosure crisis most localities bolstered the renters protections in situations where the ownership changes hands.

If he has told you "that's not going to happen" - then I doubt peaceful mechanism's exist at this point. Did he actually say those words? His attitude in this case will likely matter a lot.

First decide if he is an unfortunate soul who deserves your sympathy and if you can/should/would work with him. If the answer is yes, talk to him and then decide if you can get something that way.
Else, read your lease agreement, understand that thoroughly, and lawyer up.
In the later case, please don't talk to him before you have actually lawyered up and understood your options in your local area.

I think that's only true if there is an existing lease.  In this case, the tenant is month to month so they aren't using a sale to terminate an otherwise valid lease.  They are simply stopping  the offering/availability of continuing. 

[Sibley]

To entice the tenant, you can inform him that you'll increase the security deposit to (rent owed + $500) or whatever. Then specify that, after pulling out rent owed and damages, the remainder will given to him.

This not only ensures that he doesn't trash the place but also dangles a large amount of money in front of him, even if it's immediately clawed back due to owed rent.

Clear that ^^^ with a lawyer.

That is a possibility, though I was told not to mix it with security deposit. Just a flat payment if he vacates without damage.

[Boll weevil]

Does the tenant know about your father’s dementia, and if not, are you (as a family) open to telling them?

That may give you a couple of options.

One is to let him interact with dad on a bad day and maybe it’ll be unpleasant enough that he’ll figure out this isn’t a good situation to try to stay in. (Sorry about that. He has dementia. It’s going to get worse.”)

The other is to try to guilt him into not being seen as somebody trying to take advantage of the situation (as in “Are you really going to stay here and try to take advantage of these (hopefully sympathetic) elderly people, one of whom has dementia?”).

But I’m not the most street smart guy, so either of these could backfire.

[bacchi]

To entice the tenant, you can inform him that you'll increase the security deposit to (rent owed + $500) or whatever. Then specify that, after pulling out rent owed and damages, the remainder will given to him.

This not only ensures that he doesn't trash the place but also dangles a large amount of money in front of him, even if it's immediately clawed back due to owed rent.

Clear that ^^^ with a lawyer.

That is a possibility, though I was told not to mix it with security deposit. Just a flat payment if he vacates without damage.

What does "without damage" mean? No concrete in the drains and no copper pipes ripped out of the walls? No holes in the drywall? What about carpet stains?

It's an ambiguous phrase.

[Paul der Krake]

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I think your parents' tenant is taking them for a ride.

I would not negotiate anything, and certainly not offer money on top of forgiving owed rent. Find out exactly what you can do (both legally and in practice, because some jurisdictions just don't serve evictions right now), then lay it out very clearly before him.

[Zamboni]

^I'm with Paul, why would you offer him money at any point?

Also, if a letter was already sent as you note, then did he reply in writing?

I agree with the poster who said that it may or may not be helpful to point out to him that your Dad has been diagnosed with progressive dementia, and that's why they have to sell the place. Really you just need him to move out on time, and that's why you are considering talking to him, right?

If you haven't talked with him before, then perhaps you could just stop by to:
1. Explain who you are and explain about your Dad's worsening condition.
2. Acknowledge that it is a crappy situation for everyone.
3. Confirm that he got the letter which provided him his legal notice to move out. State that you will likely send a follow up letter on Feb. 15th to remind him that he has been provided the required written notice that his tenancy is ending on March 15th, so he needs to move out by then.
4. Thank him for his time, and let him know that you are the correct person to follow up with if he has any questions via written correspondence.
Good luck!

[Proud Foot]

Is the sale contingent on the renter being gone? And would having the renter in place effect the selling price?

If neither of those are issues it may be easier to let him be and let the new owners deal with it. From your description it sounds like the new owners will be renting it out so it may be a non-issue to not have him out.

[mozar]

I don't understand why the OP has to talk to the renter at all. He has received written notice right?

It my state we have something called "eviction for holdover" which is when someone stays in the property after their lease ended. From what I've heard this sort of eviction is a lot easier to do and takes less time. So it shouldn't be nasty. You file with a lawyer and then the sheriff kindly escorts the squatter out of your house within a few days.
In my area this has been used to get people out even if they can prove they are in non-payment because of covid-19.

[Mr. Green]

Is the sale contingent on the renter being gone? And would having the renter in place effect the selling price?

If neither of those are issues it may be easier to let him be and let the new owners deal with it. From your description it sounds like the new owners will be renting it out so it may be a non-issue to not have him out.

The house might almost be unsellable. People generally don't like buying places with tenants in place, let alone tenants behind on rent with no job, and in need of evicting. Even someone willing to buy would want a steep discount to deal with the process of eviction and any of the surprises that can come along with that.

[Fishindude]

I had one we couldn't get rid of, so made him a deal to pay him $XXX if he cleaned the place up real good, removed all of his stuff and was out of there by XX date.
Did that all verbally and paid him in cash when he showed me the place was empty and clean.

[SndcxxJ]

I've talked a lot of people out of their homes, even through covid eviction moratoriums.  I believe it takes a level of emotional intelligence which if you have will go smoother.
My general approach, which should work well in your situation, is to do a good guy bad guy approach.
I would take the assumption that he doesn't have the money to pay rent (obviously I have no idea but at this point it doesn't matter), this means he probably doesn't have the money for a deposit on his next place.  He will most likely need to either move in with a friend, rent a room, or live in his car.
I personally have never paid someone to move, but I have offered people their full deposit if they leave the place "broom clean".  Any preexisting damage is going to fall on you, but as long as the place hasn't been abused because of this termination then I wouldn't sweat it and just be thankful to have a bad situation over.
I would tell him that I know he is unemployed, but that the lawyer has convinced your dad to take legal action and to file an unlawful detainer at the first opportunity.  Tell him that the lawyer says that he can collect all back rent and any his legal fees through future wage garnishments for up to 10 years plus a 10 year extension.  Tell him that you disagree with this decision and that you have some influence with your father to prevent this.  Ask him if he would agree to your  ideas of rent forgiveness if the place is left broom clean by some specific date.  Let him know that a court eviction will be on his record for 10 years and that avenue will also leave him owing all back rent and legal fees.  Ask him if he has any friends or family to stay with.  Ask him if he has any friends to help him move.  Tell him if he needs a bulk pickup from the trash company you can arrange that (if your area offers that and if the account is in your dad's name).
Be on his side, be his friend in this conversation.  He is probably stressed to the max in life and will respond well to a friendly conversation, but don't be surprised if he conveys that he has no options on where to go and no money to make it happen.  He will ultimately find a way to do all of the above, but it might first take the realization that staying is worse than leaving.
Don't talk like an authority figure.  He knows that you guys ultimately have all the power, but reminding him that can lead to a defensive conversation. 
Pretty much everyone I've kicked out have left thanking me on their way out, and I believe it is because of such an appoach.  I am never a jerk face to face, but I will exercise my legal rights quickly and forcefully, I recommend pursuing both fronts at the same time but always communicate in a friendly 'I'm on your side' sort of way.

[mozar]

^That's talent.

If you're going to go through all that OP, I recommend a friend to be the "good cop" as the renter knows the family wants him out.
Preferable a male who can play up the being best buds thing. Society as it is, I don't think the renter would think of a woman as his "buddy."

[ctuser1]

I'd very much doubt you can evict because you are selling the house. It would depend on local laws - but after the '08 foreclosure crisis most localities bolstered the renters protections in situations where the ownership changes hands.

If he has told you "that's not going to happen" - then I doubt peaceful mechanism's exist at this point. Did he actually say those words? His attitude in this case will likely matter a lot.

First decide if he is an unfortunate soul who deserves your sympathy and if you can/should/would work with him. If the answer is yes, talk to him and then decide if you can get something that way.
Else, read your lease agreement, understand that thoroughly, and lawyer up.
In the later case, please don't talk to him before you have actually lawyered up and understood your options in your local area.

I think that's only true if there is an existing lease.  In this case, the tenant is month to month so they aren't using a sale to terminate an otherwise valid lease.  They are simply stopping  the offering/availability of continuing.

You're right - "month to month" changes the equation significantly.

From reading the rest of this thread, the lease has likely already ended. If so, just following through with the eviction paperwork might be the best course of action. Depending on jurisdiction, this may still take a lot of time and money.

Real story - I had an entrepreneurial train-buddy (used to commute with me in the train) once try to be a slum-lord in Bronx. This was around 2015-2016. Well, he figured out after purchase that the tenant in place had no intention of ever paying him rent (not sure why he could not figure it out before purchase). It took him one and a half years AND >$40k in financial cost (legal fees + lost rent) to get her out.

[ctuser1]

I've talked a lot of people out of their homes, even through covid eviction moratoriums.  I believe it takes a level of emotional intelligence which if you have will go smoother.
My general approach, which should work well in your situation, is to do a good guy bad guy approach.
I would take the assumption that he doesn't have the money to pay rent (obviously I have no idea but at this point it doesn't matter), this means he probably doesn't have the money for a deposit on his next place.  He will most likely need to either move in with a friend, rent a room, or live in his car.
I personally have never paid someone to move, but I have offered people their full deposit if they leave the place "broom clean".  Any preexisting damage is going to fall on you, but as long as the place hasn't been abused because of this termination then I wouldn't sweat it and just be thankful to have a bad situation over.
I would tell him that I know he is unemployed, but that the lawyer has convinced your dad to take legal action and to file an unlawful detainer at the first opportunity.  Tell him that the lawyer says that he can collect all back rent and any his legal fees through future wage garnishments for up to 10 years plus a 10 year extension.  Tell him that you disagree with this decision and that you have some influence with your father to prevent this.  Ask him if he would agree to your  ideas of rent forgiveness if the place is left broom clean by some specific date.  Let him know that a court eviction will be on his record for 10 years and that avenue will also leave him owing all back rent and legal fees.  Ask him if he has any friends or family to stay with.  Ask him if he has any friends to help him move.  Tell him if he needs a bulk pickup from the trash company you can arrange that (if your area offers that and if the account is in your dad's name).
Be on his side, be his friend in this conversation.  He is probably stressed to the max in life and will respond well to a friendly conversation, but don't be surprised if he conveys that he has no options on where to go and no money to make it happen.  He will ultimately find a way to do all of the above, but it might first take the realization that staying is worse than leaving.
Don't talk like an authority figure.  He knows that you guys ultimately have all the power, but reminding him that can lead to a defensive conversation. 
Pretty much everyone I've kicked out have left thanking me on their way out, and I believe it is because of such an appoach.  I am never a jerk face to face, but I will exercise my legal rights quickly and forcefully, I recommend pursuing both fronts at the same time but always communicate in a friendly 'I'm on your side' sort of way.

If anyone tried any of this in a tenant-friendly jurisdictions (definitely NY/CT, probably 15 other states across the US), be ready to lose your shirt in the court. I think they call it an attempt at "constructive eviction", or something (not a lawyer, could be quite wrong about the terminology).

Basically, unless the tenant is totally clueless, he/she will quickly find tenant rights groups that are available in any big city and routinely helps "low income" people (which would be the case for a jobless person). Once they are involved, it will land in court. A judge is not going to look very kindly at any attempt to bluff/bluster the tenant out. 

I'd second (third? fourth) the suggestion above to state only the lawyer approved points and to stick to them, and only them, in any verbal communication.

[SndcxxJ]

I've talked a lot of people out of their homes, even through covid eviction moratoriums.  I believe it takes a level of emotional intelligence which if you have will go smoother.
My general approach, which should work well in your situation, is to do a good guy bad guy approach.
I would take the assumption that he doesn't have the money to pay rent (obviously I have no idea but at this point it doesn't matter), this means he probably doesn't have the money for a deposit on his next place.  He will most likely need to either move in with a friend, rent a room, or live in his car.
I personally have never paid someone to move, but I have offered people their full deposit if they leave the place "broom clean".  Any preexisting damage is going to fall on you, but as long as the place hasn't been abused because of this termination then I wouldn't sweat it and just be thankful to have a bad situation over.
I would tell him that I know he is unemployed, but that the lawyer has convinced your dad to take legal action and to file an unlawful detainer at the first opportunity.  Tell him that the lawyer says that he can collect all back rent and any his legal fees through future wage garnishments for up to 10 years plus a 10 year extension.  Tell him that you disagree with this decision and that you have some influence with your father to prevent this.  Ask him if he would agree to your  ideas of rent forgiveness if the place is left broom clean by some specific date.  Let him know that a court eviction will be on his record for 10 years and that avenue will also leave him owing all back rent and legal fees.  Ask him if he has any friends or family to stay with.  Ask him if he has any friends to help him move.  Tell him if he needs a bulk pickup from the trash company you can arrange that (if your area offers that and if the account is in your dad's name).
Be on his side, be his friend in this conversation.  He is probably stressed to the max in life and will respond well to a friendly conversation, but don't be surprised if he conveys that he has no options on where to go and no money to make it happen.  He will ultimately find a way to do all of the above, but it might first take the realization that staying is worse than leaving.
Don't talk like an authority figure.  He knows that you guys ultimately have all the power, but reminding him that can lead to a defensive conversation. 
Pretty much everyone I've kicked out have left thanking me on their way out, and I believe it is because of such an appoach.  I am never a jerk face to face, but I will exercise my legal rights quickly and forcefully, I recommend pursuing both fronts at the same time but always communicate in a friendly 'I'm on your side' sort of way.

If anyone tried any of this in a tenant-friendly jurisdictions (definitely NY/CT, probably 15 other states across the US), be ready to lose your shirt in the court. I think they call it an attempt at "constructive eviction", or something (not a lawyer, could be quite wrong about the terminology).

Basically, unless the tenant is totally clueless, he/she will quickly find tenant rights groups that are available in any big city and routinely helps "low income" people (which would be the case for a jobless person). Once they are involved, it will land in court. A judge is not going to look very kindly at any attempt to bluff/bluster the tenant out. 

I'd second (third? fourth) the suggestion above to state only the lawyer approved points and to stick to them, and only them, in any verbal communication.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.  I'm located in the Bay Area of California, in the heart of tenant friendliness.
Maybe you aren't understanding me, but I'm not advocating anything against the law.  My understanding is that the legal avenues are being pursued with help from their lawyer.  What I am saying to do is to make sure the tenant knows, in the most friendly way possible, to know that they are embarking on a battle that they can't win and taking a rent forgiveness option is in their best interest.
If I was OP and the tenant stayed as long as humanly possible they would not be getting the back rent forgiven.  However, I would agree with OP that forgiving the back rent in exchange to a smooth exit is a good option for both parties.  OP wanted scripts to help talk to this tenant, either before or after the legal notices are delivered.  I think the script I offered above is legal, ethical, and effective.
It wouldn't be a constructive eviction because there is already a legal eviction in the process.  This script is a nonconfrontational way to offer the rent forgiveness and keep an open line of communication for the future.

[Sibley]

Hi all, sorry, I was at their house without the laptop and too busy to read/reply anyway.

So first, the house has sold. It was on the market for less than 5 full days. Cash offer, full asking price. Parents are in shock I think. I'm just exhausted.

I did talk to the tenant, but it was very much an abortive attempt.

Sunday afternoon dad went upstairs to talk to the tenant to let him know about the 4 viewings scheduled for Monday (most of them were cancelled cause they accepted an offer). I went with him to "apologize to tenant for all the noise". I'd been up and down the stairs for 2 days at that point, there had been a lot of noise. Did apologize for noise, he said it was fine, general conversation about how he's been doing, etc. Threw in a comment about it's tough that he has to pack up and find a new place, and I wished him luck. His response: "Well, we will see".

His attitude was polite, but he was incredibly dismissive of me and very clearly was not going to discuss business with me. So I didn't push it. I get the very strong sense that he's one of those men who don't view women as capable, full human beings.

Since then of course, the house has sold. So there will need to be a conversation about that, which will then need likely provide additional information about what the tenant is going to do. He's had the official notice to vacate (whatever it's called, don't nitpick because I have no clue), he legally has to be out by 3/15. Closing is currently looking like 3/16.

Realistically, the tenant mess is going to be left to my dad, the relator, and my sister/a local lawyer to hash out. I only got involved because I was going to be there. Sis is a lawyer, but not that kind, so she'll help to a point, and we're just about at the point where she's going to say that they have to find a lawyer locally to deal with it.

[bacchi]

Hi all, sorry, I was at their house without the laptop and too busy to read/reply anyway.

So first, the house has sold. It was on the market for less than 5 full days. Cash offer, full asking price. Parents are in shock I think. I'm just exhausted.

I did talk to the tenant, but it was very much an abortive attempt.

Sunday afternoon dad went upstairs to talk to the tenant to let him know about the 4 viewings scheduled for Monday (most of them were cancelled cause they accepted an offer). I went with him to "apologize to tenant for all the noise". I'd been up and down the stairs for 2 days at that point, there had been a lot of noise. Did apologize for noise, he said it was fine, general conversation about how he's been doing, etc. Threw in a comment about it's tough that he has to pack up and find a new place, and I wished him luck. His response: "Well, we will see".

His attitude was polite, but he was incredibly dismissive of me and very clearly was not going to discuss business with me. So I didn't push it. I get the very strong sense that he's one of those men who don't view women as capable, full human beings.

Since then of course, the house has sold. So there will need to be a conversation about that, which will then need likely provide additional information about what the tenant is going to do. He's had the official notice to vacate (whatever it's called, don't nitpick because I have no clue), he legally has to be out by 3/15. Closing is currently looking like 3/16.

Realistically, the tenant mess is going to be left to my dad, the relator, and my sister/a local lawyer to hash out. I only got involved because I was going to be there. Sis is a lawyer, but not that kind, so she'll help to a point, and we're just about at the point where she's going to say that they have to find a lawyer locally to deal with it.

Wow, nice.

How did the buyers respond to the fact that the tenant hasn't paid for months?

And what happens if the tenant is NOT out on the 15th? Call a sheriff? Will closing still happen?

[Villanelle]

Wow!  I'm frankly shocked that someone was willing to buy it with a month-to-month tenant who is behind on the rent (and not agreeing to vacate).

I would be prepared and tell your parents to prepare for the sale to fall through.  If the tenant is still in the home on 3/15, the new prospective-owner would be crazy to close and it seems like having someone still living in the property they are supposed to buy would give them very sufficient reason to walk away. 

[Sibley]

The buyer is actually a neighbor-ish. My parents don't know them well, but they've met, and they are looking for a place for the wife's mother. They live on the next street over. They know my parent's cat and the little girl who came with mom for the showing was very intent on asking if the cat would be moving too. Apparently they play together? Is the cat's MO.

I believe there's contingencies, etc re the tenant. I don't have the paperwork to check details though. Plus, the intent is for the tenant to vacate, and I believe that's what's been communicated/agreed to. If that doesn't happen, then yeah, problem. There's also a contingency for an inspection.

I've been told that slow, inefficient efforts are in motion to find a local lawyer. (Dad. sigh.) But hopefully that will result in a lawyer later this week. We're letting it play out for now, because the approach dad took will either result in a lawyer recommendation or a "sorry I don't know anyone, but you need to find a real estate lawyer".

A letter is being prepared to notify the tenant that they accepted an offer. I'm not involved in that - no clue. Sister is helping, relator is helping, so it should be ok. Once this letter is delivered, if there's anything other than "yes, I understand, I will be out by the 15th", then I will tell parents they HAVE to get a real estate lawyer involved, ASAP, or risk the closing. Sister will back me up, she already wants to be done with this.

On the off chance - anyone know a real estate lawyer in Detroit, MI area?

Edit:
Talked to dad earlier. He is of the opinion that they're ok for now without a lawyer, but if the tenant doesn't agree to move out he doesn't know what to do. I convinced him to find a local real estate lawyer now, just in case. I will talk to my sister tonight, that's her department and she'll push that forward. They did call the city and talk to whomever is involved in rentals, they approved of what had been done so far but recommended the addition of a standard form to add weight to the notice to vacate. So they're going to do that form along with the letter informing him the house sold.

[ctuser1]

On the off chance - anyone know a real estate lawyer in Detroit, MI area?

I don't know any real estate lawyers in MI. However, there is a trick I have used in the past - just in case it proves to be useful for you.

I would look up the large residential apartment complexes in your area, find out the lawyer that accepts service on their behalf (should be public information) - and that group/lawyer should be a reasonably good one given a large apartment complex uses them.

IF you want to do further due diligence, do this for multiple apartment complexes nearby, and if you find a popular lawyer used by multiple apartment complexes, then you found a popular lawyer.

[Sibley]

On the off chance - anyone know a real estate lawyer in Detroit, MI area?

I don't know any real estate lawyers in MI. However, there is a trick I have used in the past - just in case it proves to be useful for you.

I would look up the large residential apartment complexes in your area, find out the lawyer that accepts service on their behalf (should be public information) - and that group/lawyer should be a reasonably good one given a large apartment complex uses them.

IF you want to do further due diligence, do this for multiple apartment complexes nearby, and if you find a popular lawyer used by multiple apartment complexes, then you found a popular lawyer.

I like it. May not work for their area as all the complexes nearby are senior housing so might be different. But I will pass it on to my sister as the designated deal with the legal stuff daughter :)
I get revenge for all the stuff she's passed to me as the designated deal with financial stuff daughter!

[SunnyDays]

Not sure what argument the tenant is going to put forth for not moving, but it might be possible for the buyers to use the reason that they are moving in family.  That is allowable here even when there’s no other reason for evicting.  My uncle did that in a building he owned when his mother wanted a suite there.

[Paul der Krake]

Good on you for keeping your cool. I don't think I could have.

Wayne County is serving evictions. He's going to be out one way or the other.

[Gronnie]

I think not getting a lawyer involved immediately is a big mistake if they are dependent on this house closing 3/15. If the tenant wants to fight these things usually don't go quickly, even if you are in the right.

[Sibley]

Gronnie, I don't disagree - but I don't have power here. I'm doing what I can to push them getting a local lawyer.

SunnyDays - I have no idea either, but the tenant has no legal option here from what I've been told. He's on a month to month lease. He's been given appropriate notice to vacate. Even if he would end up homeless, he's not going to get much sympathy from anyone. He's basically not been paying rent for 3/4 of a year, while on a month to month lease the entire time, and his landlords didn't make any moves to try to evict or otherwise tell him to move out until they were preparing to retire, sell, and move out of state. And they could have, at any point, and the eviction moratorium would not have applied.

Needless to say, I'm not liking this guy.

[livesimplecolorado]

I would look at covid moratoriums in your neck of the woods. Last I heard Biden pushed everything out until March or so.

With that said, this is unacceptable to me. I have been a landlord for about 20 years now and I always say to my tenants "Communication is key" because once that breaks down you know what hits the fan. I would say to my tenants if something happens and you can't pay the rent then you need to talk to me about what you "can" pay and how the rest will be paid.

Regardless of Covid, there is still no free ride. I know I sound harsh, but there are UI benefits, things like that, at least he should make some kind of effort to pay something and not slack off and make the Covid excuse.

Did you tell him you were selling? I am not sure if it would make a difference anyway, but if I were you/your parents, I would give him nothing. I would just start the eviction process and get him out. Depending on where you live, without a moratorium, you could have him out in about a month.

I would also sue for back-rent. If there is any deposit left, you can keep that to cover your expenses. As far as him thrashing the place, believe me, it is probably already thrashed.

Thrashed rental = cost of doing business

Get rid of him, don't give him money.

[Cassie]

40 years ago we bought a house with tenants. It was a 2 family. It was Nextdoor to my parents and we knew the gay couple in the unit we were moving into. They were long term renters and wanted to buy the house but weren’t given a chance because my family was friends of the owner. We knew that they were very fussy, didn’t like kids and were immaculate. They refused to move and my third baby was due in a month. So I knocked on the door with my 2 and 6 year old letting them know that the 4 of us soon to be 5 would be moving in on Xmas eve whether they were gone or not. They left before then.

I just got a divorce and put a offer on a condo with a renter with the provision that the renter must be out 4 days before closing. The lease is up at the end of February and the owner agreed. We actually met the renter and he was nice and intends to leave. I wouldn’t close on a house with a renter. My agent contacted the other agent and if there had been any hint of trouble I wouldn’t have made a offer. If you can get your dad to commit to a lawyer immediately that would be the best route.

[Sibley]

Mom has decided that they do indeed need a lawyer, so they are working on that this week. Annoying that it took another realtor saying what my sister and I had already said to get her to that point, but whatever.

BTW - if you EVER have any sort of cognitive decline, get out of the the rental business. This would be much easier if dad was able to have the kinds of conversations that are needed here. He isn't, and that isn't going to change. I don't care if you think you're able to. Get out before you screw your family with having to get you out.

[maizefolk]

BTW - if you EVER have any sort of cognitive decline, get out of the the rental business. This would be much easier if dad was able to have the kinds of conversations that are needed here. He isn't, and that isn't going to change. I don't care if you think you're able to. Get out before you screw your family with having to get you out.

This is one of my real fears generally about the later part of my life, particularly as I likely won't have any family around to get me out of messy situations I might get myself into.

I know it's an obnoxious mess that is not of your making, but seriously good for you and your sister for the time, effort, and worry you're both putting in to helping to resolve the situation your father/your parents are in right now. He/they are fortunate to have the two of you.

[iris lily]

BTW - if you EVER have any sort of cognitive decline, get out of the the rental business. This would be much easier if dad was able to have the kinds of conversations that are needed here. He isn't, and that isn't going to change. I don't care if you think you're able to. Get out before you screw your family with having to get you out.

This is one of my real fears generally about the later part of my life, particularly as I likely won't have any family around to get me out of messy situations I might get myself into.

I know it's an obnoxious mess that is not of your making, but seriously good for you and your sister for the time, effort, and worry you're both putting in to helping to resolve the situation your father/your parents are in right now. He/they are fortunate to have the two of you.

me too. There are several stupid situations I have had to deal with that I wont be able to do in 10-15 years. As it is now, I am a little impaired.reducing places that hold our financial  instruments is a goal.

[Sibley]

Parents have a call into a lawyer. This is progress.

Dad went and talked to tenant. Tenant tried to weasel out of talking, dad surprisingly was able to push back and asked to know what tenant's plan was to move out. Tenant replied that he would need to talk to some people who were helping him. So, not all that helpful, but honestly more than I expected. It also puts tenant on notice that, yeah, they mean it. Since clearly the letter telling him to move out didn't have that effect!

[Sibley]

Since why not, update.

Dad got a text message yesterday from tenant, saying that "we would like to talk tomorrow [Thursday]". No idea who "we" is, the guy lives alone. Sister talked dad through what to say and not say. They're expecting a lawyer or legal papers possibly, but I haven't talked to sister to find out. Will come back and report what happened when I find out.

I also had a knockdown screaming fight with mom because she's terrible at business and doesn't want to pay the tenant to go away (before the text message). She hung up on me. This is normal however and if I called she'd be fine. I just don't want to deal with her right now.

[Gronnie]

Mother will have to decide if her principles are worth the sale falling through and possibly losing a lot more money than the cash for keys would cost.

[BabyShark]

Since why not, update.

. . .

Definitely keep us updated!

[Sibley]

Mother will have to decide if her principles are worth the sale falling through and possibly losing a lot more money than the cash for keys would cost.

She can hate it all she wants - dad has final say in that particular area, and he is just fine with cash for keys. Mom is stressed and not handling it well, while also not admitting that she's stressed and not handling it well.

I do have to laugh re the house search in IN. The realtor they're using is the same one I used to buy my house and she's amazing. She's got the dynamics down perfectly. Mom has to like the house, dad will agree with mom unless he sees big problems, and I have to approve the house condition/location. I'll be going to showing with them as much as possible.

[Sibley]

Update, and breakthrough!

Tenant talked to dad. He's aware that he needs to move out now. Apparently, he had initially been told by someone that he didn't have to move out due to the Covid moratorium. Someone else apparently took a 2nd look and said no, that didn't apply. So he knows he has to move.

Problem is he's flat broke. He's long out of savings, and his unemployment is messed up so he doesn't even have that coming in. He also apparently doesn't have a lot of friends/family to fall back on. He has no idea what he's going to do. Parents are offering him some cash to help him out (3-5k is the range I heard).

So, this should be ok. I'm just pissed with this idiot that he shut down the communication. This same conversation could have been held 3 weeks ago and prevented a lot of stress. Ugh. Idiot.

[Zamboni]

I'm glad that the tenant now realizes he needs to move out. That is a huge step in the right direction.

In every instance I've heard "cash for keys" in the past, it is always people moving in, not out. They are giving the current owner cash for the keys, not the other way around, but I suppose the expression works the other way around.

As the previous poster wrote, I agree that you should be quite careful how much money he is being given to get out. Unfortunately I've had some "no good deed goes unpunished" experiences where I was really above and beyond nice to someone after they messed up, so then they turned around and demanded even more from me a few days later. Ugh. It happens.

Remember: HE owes YOU money, not the other way around. In fact, he owes your parents A LOT of money at this point. It sounds like you are mad at your Mom about having this stance, and that she can be both rude and difficult sometimes in general, but I tend to agree with her on this topic. I wouldn't have hung up on you, though! Good luck with everything, Sibley, and good job keeping things moving forward.

[Sibley]

Dad offered $3k to tenant to help him move out.

[Sibley]

Well, this particular saga doesn't seem likely to end. Relayed through sister.

Dad talked to tenant, asked how he was doing and if he'd found a new place yet. Tenant responded that he was going to get a personal protection order against dad and that dad was an awful man, and he would not leave.

Sigh. Sister told dad to call the lawyer.

[ctuser1]

Assuming ll/tenant laws work similarly in MI as they do here, in this specific case, I'm afraid, no good deed will go unpunished in case this ends up in front of a judge.

If you dad had acted as a professional "heartless" landlord who had initiated the eviction proceedings right when a default occurred for the first time (i.e. first time tenant was late by > 10 days, or whatever is the boundary in your state), and kept all paperwork up to date for eviction even if COVID moratorium applied, then he would have a much easier time to do the eviction now.

Now that he has shown ability and willingness to go along for a long time without rent, AND offered cash for keys, the judge will see a broke jobless man struggling (=the deadbeat tenant) and a rich landlord (=your dad) and drag the proceedings out for an unreasonably long period.

My train buddy I referenced upthread fought this for > 1 year before he got possession of his house.

[mozar]

Please try to convince your dad to stop talking to the tenant. What your dad is doing can be construed as harassment in court.