The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Real Estate and Landlording => Topic started by: Sibley on February 05, 2021, 07:54:42 AM
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Situation:
My parents own a duplex, live downstairs, rent out upstairs.
The current tenant is a good guy, clean, neat, has a very nice and well behaved dog. He's been out of work due to Covid, can't pay the rent, etc. Before he lost his job was always on time with rent payment. Lease is month to month.
Parents are retiring, selling the house and moving. New owners whoever they are will likely rent for $1800-2k a month. Parent's rent is around $1100.
Dad talked to the tenant, let him know that they need him to vacate by 3/15 because they're selling the house. Tenant's response was something like "that's not going to happen".
Now, I'm really hoping that the tenant just had a poor in the moment response, and will have since reflected/researched and won't cause problems. But, someone needs to talk to him regardless, and I'm unfortunately it. Tenant has never really talked to mom about rental stuff, only dad. But dad has dementia and his emotional intelligence side has been decimated. Mom is too stressed, she's a loose cannon. It's me.
The approach we're going to take is:
1. make sure he understands that the eviction moratorium does not apply - he's not being evicted for nonpayment of rent, he's being asked to move out because they're selling the house, and he got more than the minimum 30 days notice.
2. If he vacates by 3/15 without trashing the place, parents will forgive the debt (he owes something like $6-8k in back rent)
and last ditch,
3. If he vacates by 3/15 without trashing the place, parents will pay him some money. Maybe like $5k.
What I need from you guys: wording. Scripts of how you might say this stuff, in a emotionally intelligent, sympathetic way. I'm bad at coming up with words in the moment, but if I have read potential words then that helps me a LOT. Please help me with potential words.
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I'd very much doubt you can evict because you are selling the house. It would depend on local laws - but after the '08 foreclosure crisis most localities bolstered the renters protections in situations where the ownership changes hands.
If he has told you "that's not going to happen" - then I doubt peaceful mechanism's exist at this point. Did he actually say those words? His attitude in this case will likely matter a lot.
First decide if he is an unfortunate soul who deserves your sympathy and if you can/should/would work with him. If the answer is yes, talk to him and then decide if you can get something that way.
Else, read your lease agreement, understand that thoroughly, and lawyer up.
In the later case, please don't talk to him before you have actually lawyered up and understood your options in your local area.
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Unless evictions are still banned due to Covid, you could simply start those proceedings. There's zero chance he's going to agree to move if he can't pay any rent, no matter how nice you are to him. You don't need a lawyer for this, just knowledge of your local residential tenancy board rules. Or you could just sell the house from under him and let the new owners deal with it. I see listings all the time where it says "current renters would like to stay."
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I don't think talking to a lawyer would hurt, unless you're very clear on the options. I'm guessing you'll have trouble selling the place with a tenant who hasn't paid rent in 6 months or however long it's been.
If dad has dementia and trouble with emotional intelligence at the moment, the response may have been lost in translation. May be worth you trying to clear up the conversation with the tenant first, before figuring out next steps.
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I feel your pain. I'm a very empathetic person too - but I've learned from being a landlord over the past couple years that its better to have any and all written communication be very 1) authoritative sounding, and 2) short/simple to understand when dealing with difficult tenants.
IE -
As previously discussed, we are giving you 60 days to vacate the property, per our month-to-month lease agreement: ______(quote lease agreement clause about termination of lease if possible).
In recognition of this difficult time for property owners and tenants alike, the homeowner will provide written relief of your backdated rent owed (effectively clearing your tenancy debt), provided you meet all of the following conditions:
- Property is vacated and cleaned by ________ (date)
- You notify us in writing of the date/time the home is vacant to schedule a walkthrough final inspection
- Keys/garage door openers are returned to _______ (address) by _______ (same date as above)
- A forwarding address has been provided to us for the return of your deposit, if applicable
If you fail to meet these conditions, and continue to not comply with the move-out request per the lease agreement clause ____, then:
- The property owners will file a Notice to Vacate (or whatever the step is called in your state). Failure to move out by the date on the notice will result in eviction proceedings. Eviction proceedings will negatively impact your credit and rental history and will hamper your ability to rent or purchase future homes. It is in everyone's best interest to avoid eviction.
- You would still be financially responsible for the terms of the lease, including back payment of rent in the amount of _______ . The homeowner may file a small claims lawsuit, seek judgement, or otherwise report the outstanding debt owed to tenant and credit reporting agencies, as allowed by law.
This is just an idea of how straightforward you need to be with tenants like this. There are no back and forth text message exchanges. No engaging in drama. Just continually pointing to a very simple, "If this, then that" written letter. When the tenant inevitably tries to pull you into conversation about it, just reiterate that all communication must be written (email is fine, probably, check your state/locality). As a property owner/landlord (or in this case, a representative of your parents as owners), reiterate that your hands are tied. "I have to follow all the policies and procedures as outlined by fair housing laws, local regulations, and the lease agreement. Sorry, by law that's what I have to do. These are the steps.... " . Just say it again and again and he will eventually get the picture.
This may takes months longer than you want it to, depending on where the duplex is located. But perseverance and a cool head will win out eventually as long as you are following all the legal steps in your jurisdiction and you are documenting everything correctly along the way.
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If he doesn't want to move and you have the power to make him move, if you aren't prepared to continue renting to him, the kindest type of communication is clear communication. Clarity about what process you are following and what his required actions are.
You say the tenant is on a month-to-month lease. Regardless of other circumstances like non-payment, in many jurisdictions that would mean you simply need to give 30 or 60 days notice end the tenancy agreement. Just follow the law and be business-like in any communications. Get everything in writing. If instead of a regular lease termination you plan to serve them something else like an unconditional quit notice, that's a different process. You may find this website handy as an overview of your options: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/renters-rights-book/chapter9-3.html But everything is specific to the law where you are located, including any COVID requirements in your area. And your lease agreement.
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Yes, the very proper legal-ese letter was written, reviewed by an attorney and delivered as appropriate . I failed to mention that in my original post, sorry. My sister handled that side, but she's not going to be physically present this weekend and I am.
Yes, they can tell him to move out. The place is being sold, he's on a month to month lease. All the covid moratoriums in the world don't protect you when your lease ends - and as long as they give him 30 days notice, he has to move. They gave more notice than necessary. The fact that he can't pay the rent is immaterial, legally.
Yes, lawyer has been consulted. They're in the clear. We would prefer not to go down the nasty eviction route, but we will if we have to. Me talking to the guy is an attempt to avoid having to do the nasty route.
NonprofitER, thanks. This wording gives me something to go on. Let's hope this guy has had a chance to reflect and realize that as much as the situation sucks, he doesn't have an option and will cooperate.
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If he doesn't want to move and you have the power to make him move, if you aren't prepared to continue renting to him, the kindest type of communication is clear communication. Clarity about what process you are following and what his required actions are.
You say the tenant is on a month-to-month lease. Regardless of other circumstances like non-payment, in many jurisdictions that would mean you simply need to give 30 or 60 days notice end the tenancy agreement. Just follow the law and be business-like in any communications. Get everything in writing. If instead of a regular lease termination you plan to serve them something else like an unconditional quit notice, that's a different process. You may find this website handy as an overview of your options: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/renters-rights-book/chapter9-3.html But everything is specific to the law where you are located, including any COVID requirements in your area. And your lease agreement.
Yeah, normal ending the lease please move out type thing. I'm not the legal side of the team here, just sent a message asking for the info. I am very much a fan of clear, concise communication. (I have no desire to be a landlord. Too much hassle.)
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To entice the tenant, you can inform him that you'll increase the security deposit to (rent owed + $500) or whatever. Then specify that, after pulling out rent owed and damages, the remainder will given to him.
This not only ensures that he doesn't trash the place but also dangles a large amount of money in front of him, even if it's immediately clawed back due to owed rent.
Clear that ^^^ with a lawyer.
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I'd very much doubt you can evict because you are selling the house. It would depend on local laws - but after the '08 foreclosure crisis most localities bolstered the renters protections in situations where the ownership changes hands.
If he has told you "that's not going to happen" - then I doubt peaceful mechanism's exist at this point. Did he actually say those words? His attitude in this case will likely matter a lot.
First decide if he is an unfortunate soul who deserves your sympathy and if you can/should/would work with him. If the answer is yes, talk to him and then decide if you can get something that way.
Else, read your lease agreement, understand that thoroughly, and lawyer up.
In the later case, please don't talk to him before you have actually lawyered up and understood your options in your local area.
I think that's only true if there is an existing lease. In this case, the tenant is month to month so they aren't using a sale to terminate an otherwise valid lease. They are simply stopping the offering/availability of continuing.
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To entice the tenant, you can inform him that you'll increase the security deposit to (rent owed + $500) or whatever. Then specify that, after pulling out rent owed and damages, the remainder will given to him.
This not only ensures that he doesn't trash the place but also dangles a large amount of money in front of him, even if it's immediately clawed back due to owed rent.
Clear that ^^^ with a lawyer.
That is a possibility, though I was told not to mix it with security deposit. Just a flat payment if he vacates without damage.
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Does the tenant know about your father’s dementia, and if not, are you (as a family) open to telling them?
That may give you a couple of options.
One is to let him interact with dad on a bad day and maybe it’ll be unpleasant enough that he’ll figure out this isn’t a good situation to try to stay in. (Sorry about that. He has dementia. It’s going to get worse.”)
The other is to try to guilt him into not being seen as somebody trying to take advantage of the situation (as in “Are you really going to stay here and try to take advantage of these (hopefully sympathetic) elderly people, one of whom has dementia?”).
But I’m not the most street smart guy, so either of these could backfire.
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To entice the tenant, you can inform him that you'll increase the security deposit to (rent owed + $500) or whatever. Then specify that, after pulling out rent owed and damages, the remainder will given to him.
This not only ensures that he doesn't trash the place but also dangles a large amount of money in front of him, even if it's immediately clawed back due to owed rent.
Clear that ^^^ with a lawyer.
That is a possibility, though I was told not to mix it with security deposit. Just a flat payment if he vacates without damage.
What does "without damage" mean? No concrete in the drains and no copper pipes ripped out of the walls? No holes in the drywall? What about carpet stains?
It's an ambiguous phrase.
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Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I think your parents' tenant is taking them for a ride.
I would not negotiate anything, and certainly not offer money on top of forgiving owed rent. Find out exactly what you can do (both legally and in practice, because some jurisdictions just don't serve evictions right now), then lay it out very clearly before him.
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^I'm with Paul, why would you offer him money at any point?
Also, if a letter was already sent as you note, then did he reply in writing?
I agree with the poster who said that it may or may not be helpful to point out to him that your Dad has been diagnosed with progressive dementia, and that's why they have to sell the place. Really you just need him to move out on time, and that's why you are considering talking to him, right?
If you haven't talked with him before, then perhaps you could just stop by to:
1. Explain who you are and explain about your Dad's worsening condition.
2. Acknowledge that it is a crappy situation for everyone.
3. Confirm that he got the letter which provided him his legal notice to move out. State that you will likely send a follow up letter on Feb. 15th to remind him that he has been provided the required written notice that his tenancy is ending on March 15th, so he needs to move out by then.
4. Thank him for his time, and let him know that you are the correct person to follow up with if he has any questions via written correspondence.
Good luck!
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Is the sale contingent on the renter being gone? And would having the renter in place effect the selling price?
If neither of those are issues it may be easier to let him be and let the new owners deal with it. From your description it sounds like the new owners will be renting it out so it may be a non-issue to not have him out.
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I don't understand why the OP has to talk to the renter at all. He has received written notice right?
It my state we have something called "eviction for holdover" which is when someone stays in the property after their lease ended. From what I've heard this sort of eviction is a lot easier to do and takes less time. So it shouldn't be nasty. You file with a lawyer and then the sheriff kindly escorts the squatter out of your house within a few days.
In my area this has been used to get people out even if they can prove they are in non-payment because of covid-19.
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Is the sale contingent on the renter being gone? And would having the renter in place effect the selling price?
If neither of those are issues it may be easier to let him be and let the new owners deal with it. From your description it sounds like the new owners will be renting it out so it may be a non-issue to not have him out.
The house might almost be unsellable. People generally don't like buying places with tenants in place, let alone tenants behind on rent with no job, and in need of evicting. Even someone willing to buy would want a steep discount to deal with the process of eviction and any of the surprises that can come along with that.
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I had one we couldn't get rid of, so made him a deal to pay him $XXX if he cleaned the place up real good, removed all of his stuff and was out of there by XX date.
Did that all verbally and paid him in cash when he showed me the place was empty and clean.
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I've talked a lot of people out of their homes, even through covid eviction moratoriums. I believe it takes a level of emotional intelligence which if you have will go smoother.
My general approach, which should work well in your situation, is to do a good guy bad guy approach.
I would take the assumption that he doesn't have the money to pay rent (obviously I have no idea but at this point it doesn't matter), this means he probably doesn't have the money for a deposit on his next place. He will most likely need to either move in with a friend, rent a room, or live in his car.
I personally have never paid someone to move, but I have offered people their full deposit if they leave the place "broom clean". Any preexisting damage is going to fall on you, but as long as the place hasn't been abused because of this termination then I wouldn't sweat it and just be thankful to have a bad situation over.
I would tell him that I know he is unemployed, but that the lawyer has convinced your dad to take legal action and to file an unlawful detainer at the first opportunity. Tell him that the lawyer says that he can collect all back rent and any his legal fees through future wage garnishments for up to 10 years plus a 10 year extension. Tell him that you disagree with this decision and that you have some influence with your father to prevent this. Ask him if he would agree to your ideas of rent forgiveness if the place is left broom clean by some specific date. Let him know that a court eviction will be on his record for 10 years and that avenue will also leave him owing all back rent and legal fees. Ask him if he has any friends or family to stay with. Ask him if he has any friends to help him move. Tell him if he needs a bulk pickup from the trash company you can arrange that (if your area offers that and if the account is in your dad's name).
Be on his side, be his friend in this conversation. He is probably stressed to the max in life and will respond well to a friendly conversation, but don't be surprised if he conveys that he has no options on where to go and no money to make it happen. He will ultimately find a way to do all of the above, but it might first take the realization that staying is worse than leaving.
Don't talk like an authority figure. He knows that you guys ultimately have all the power, but reminding him that can lead to a defensive conversation.
Pretty much everyone I've kicked out have left thanking me on their way out, and I believe it is because of such an appoach. I am never a jerk face to face, but I will exercise my legal rights quickly and forcefully, I recommend pursuing both fronts at the same time but always communicate in a friendly 'I'm on your side' sort of way.
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^That's talent.
If you're going to go through all that OP, I recommend a friend to be the "good cop" as the renter knows the family wants him out.
Preferable a male who can play up the being best buds thing. Society as it is, I don't think the renter would think of a woman as his "buddy."
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I'd very much doubt you can evict because you are selling the house. It would depend on local laws - but after the '08 foreclosure crisis most localities bolstered the renters protections in situations where the ownership changes hands.
If he has told you "that's not going to happen" - then I doubt peaceful mechanism's exist at this point. Did he actually say those words? His attitude in this case will likely matter a lot.
First decide if he is an unfortunate soul who deserves your sympathy and if you can/should/would work with him. If the answer is yes, talk to him and then decide if you can get something that way.
Else, read your lease agreement, understand that thoroughly, and lawyer up.
In the later case, please don't talk to him before you have actually lawyered up and understood your options in your local area.
I think that's only true if there is an existing lease. In this case, the tenant is month to month so they aren't using a sale to terminate an otherwise valid lease. They are simply stopping the offering/availability of continuing.
You're right - "month to month" changes the equation significantly.
From reading the rest of this thread, the lease has likely already ended. If so, just following through with the eviction paperwork might be the best course of action. Depending on jurisdiction, this may still take a lot of time and money.
Real story - I had an entrepreneurial train-buddy (used to commute with me in the train) once try to be a slum-lord in Bronx. This was around 2015-2016. Well, he figured out after purchase that the tenant in place had no intention of ever paying him rent (not sure why he could not figure it out before purchase). It took him one and a half years AND >$40k in financial cost (legal fees + lost rent) to get her out.
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I've talked a lot of people out of their homes, even through covid eviction moratoriums. I believe it takes a level of emotional intelligence which if you have will go smoother.
My general approach, which should work well in your situation, is to do a good guy bad guy approach.
I would take the assumption that he doesn't have the money to pay rent (obviously I have no idea but at this point it doesn't matter), this means he probably doesn't have the money for a deposit on his next place. He will most likely need to either move in with a friend, rent a room, or live in his car.
I personally have never paid someone to move, but I have offered people their full deposit if they leave the place "broom clean". Any preexisting damage is going to fall on you, but as long as the place hasn't been abused because of this termination then I wouldn't sweat it and just be thankful to have a bad situation over.
I would tell him that I know he is unemployed, but that the lawyer has convinced your dad to take legal action and to file an unlawful detainer at the first opportunity. Tell him that the lawyer says that he can collect all back rent and any his legal fees through future wage garnishments for up to 10 years plus a 10 year extension. Tell him that you disagree with this decision and that you have some influence with your father to prevent this. Ask him if he would agree to your ideas of rent forgiveness if the place is left broom clean by some specific date. Let him know that a court eviction will be on his record for 10 years and that avenue will also leave him owing all back rent and legal fees. Ask him if he has any friends or family to stay with. Ask him if he has any friends to help him move. Tell him if he needs a bulk pickup from the trash company you can arrange that (if your area offers that and if the account is in your dad's name).
Be on his side, be his friend in this conversation. He is probably stressed to the max in life and will respond well to a friendly conversation, but don't be surprised if he conveys that he has no options on where to go and no money to make it happen. He will ultimately find a way to do all of the above, but it might first take the realization that staying is worse than leaving.
Don't talk like an authority figure. He knows that you guys ultimately have all the power, but reminding him that can lead to a defensive conversation.
Pretty much everyone I've kicked out have left thanking me on their way out, and I believe it is because of such an appoach. I am never a jerk face to face, but I will exercise my legal rights quickly and forcefully, I recommend pursuing both fronts at the same time but always communicate in a friendly 'I'm on your side' sort of way.
If anyone tried any of this in a tenant-friendly jurisdictions (definitely NY/CT, probably 15 other states across the US), be ready to lose your shirt in the court. I think they call it an attempt at "constructive eviction", or something (not a lawyer, could be quite wrong about the terminology).
Basically, unless the tenant is totally clueless, he/she will quickly find tenant rights groups that are available in any big city and routinely helps "low income" people (which would be the case for a jobless person). Once they are involved, it will land in court. A judge is not going to look very kindly at any attempt to bluff/bluster the tenant out.
I'd second (third? fourth) the suggestion above to state only the lawyer approved points and to stick to them, and only them, in any verbal communication.
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I've talked a lot of people out of their homes, even through covid eviction moratoriums. I believe it takes a level of emotional intelligence which if you have will go smoother.
My general approach, which should work well in your situation, is to do a good guy bad guy approach.
I would take the assumption that he doesn't have the money to pay rent (obviously I have no idea but at this point it doesn't matter), this means he probably doesn't have the money for a deposit on his next place. He will most likely need to either move in with a friend, rent a room, or live in his car.
I personally have never paid someone to move, but I have offered people their full deposit if they leave the place "broom clean". Any preexisting damage is going to fall on you, but as long as the place hasn't been abused because of this termination then I wouldn't sweat it and just be thankful to have a bad situation over.
I would tell him that I know he is unemployed, but that the lawyer has convinced your dad to take legal action and to file an unlawful detainer at the first opportunity. Tell him that the lawyer says that he can collect all back rent and any his legal fees through future wage garnishments for up to 10 years plus a 10 year extension. Tell him that you disagree with this decision and that you have some influence with your father to prevent this. Ask him if he would agree to your ideas of rent forgiveness if the place is left broom clean by some specific date. Let him know that a court eviction will be on his record for 10 years and that avenue will also leave him owing all back rent and legal fees. Ask him if he has any friends or family to stay with. Ask him if he has any friends to help him move. Tell him if he needs a bulk pickup from the trash company you can arrange that (if your area offers that and if the account is in your dad's name).
Be on his side, be his friend in this conversation. He is probably stressed to the max in life and will respond well to a friendly conversation, but don't be surprised if he conveys that he has no options on where to go and no money to make it happen. He will ultimately find a way to do all of the above, but it might first take the realization that staying is worse than leaving.
Don't talk like an authority figure. He knows that you guys ultimately have all the power, but reminding him that can lead to a defensive conversation.
Pretty much everyone I've kicked out have left thanking me on their way out, and I believe it is because of such an appoach. I am never a jerk face to face, but I will exercise my legal rights quickly and forcefully, I recommend pursuing both fronts at the same time but always communicate in a friendly 'I'm on your side' sort of way.
If anyone tried any of this in a tenant-friendly jurisdictions (definitely NY/CT, probably 15 other states across the US), be ready to lose your shirt in the court. I think they call it an attempt at "constructive eviction", or something (not a lawyer, could be quite wrong about the terminology).
Basically, unless the tenant is totally clueless, he/she will quickly find tenant rights groups that are available in any big city and routinely helps "low income" people (which would be the case for a jobless person). Once they are involved, it will land in court. A judge is not going to look very kindly at any attempt to bluff/bluster the tenant out.
I'd second (third? fourth) the suggestion above to state only the lawyer approved points and to stick to them, and only them, in any verbal communication.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I'm located in the Bay Area of California, in the heart of tenant friendliness.
Maybe you aren't understanding me, but I'm not advocating anything against the law. My understanding is that the legal avenues are being pursued with help from their lawyer. What I am saying to do is to make sure the tenant knows, in the most friendly way possible, to know that they are embarking on a battle that they can't win and taking a rent forgiveness option is in their best interest.
If I was OP and the tenant stayed as long as humanly possible they would not be getting the back rent forgiven. However, I would agree with OP that forgiving the back rent in exchange to a smooth exit is a good option for both parties. OP wanted scripts to help talk to this tenant, either before or after the legal notices are delivered. I think the script I offered above is legal, ethical, and effective.
It wouldn't be a constructive eviction because there is already a legal eviction in the process. This script is a nonconfrontational way to offer the rent forgiveness and keep an open line of communication for the future.
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Hi all, sorry, I was at their house without the laptop and too busy to read/reply anyway.
So first, the house has sold. It was on the market for less than 5 full days. Cash offer, full asking price. Parents are in shock I think. I'm just exhausted.
I did talk to the tenant, but it was very much an abortive attempt.
Sunday afternoon dad went upstairs to talk to the tenant to let him know about the 4 viewings scheduled for Monday (most of them were cancelled cause they accepted an offer). I went with him to "apologize to tenant for all the noise". I'd been up and down the stairs for 2 days at that point, there had been a lot of noise. Did apologize for noise, he said it was fine, general conversation about how he's been doing, etc. Threw in a comment about it's tough that he has to pack up and find a new place, and I wished him luck. His response: "Well, we will see".
His attitude was polite, but he was incredibly dismissive of me and very clearly was not going to discuss business with me. So I didn't push it. I get the very strong sense that he's one of those men who don't view women as capable, full human beings.
Since then of course, the house has sold. So there will need to be a conversation about that, which will then need likely provide additional information about what the tenant is going to do. He's had the official notice to vacate (whatever it's called, don't nitpick because I have no clue), he legally has to be out by 3/15. Closing is currently looking like 3/16.
Realistically, the tenant mess is going to be left to my dad, the relator, and my sister/a local lawyer to hash out. I only got involved because I was going to be there. Sis is a lawyer, but not that kind, so she'll help to a point, and we're just about at the point where she's going to say that they have to find a lawyer locally to deal with it.
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Hi all, sorry, I was at their house without the laptop and too busy to read/reply anyway.
So first, the house has sold. It was on the market for less than 5 full days. Cash offer, full asking price. Parents are in shock I think. I'm just exhausted.
I did talk to the tenant, but it was very much an abortive attempt.
Sunday afternoon dad went upstairs to talk to the tenant to let him know about the 4 viewings scheduled for Monday (most of them were cancelled cause they accepted an offer). I went with him to "apologize to tenant for all the noise". I'd been up and down the stairs for 2 days at that point, there had been a lot of noise. Did apologize for noise, he said it was fine, general conversation about how he's been doing, etc. Threw in a comment about it's tough that he has to pack up and find a new place, and I wished him luck. His response: "Well, we will see".
His attitude was polite, but he was incredibly dismissive of me and very clearly was not going to discuss business with me. So I didn't push it. I get the very strong sense that he's one of those men who don't view women as capable, full human beings.
Since then of course, the house has sold. So there will need to be a conversation about that, which will then need likely provide additional information about what the tenant is going to do. He's had the official notice to vacate (whatever it's called, don't nitpick because I have no clue), he legally has to be out by 3/15. Closing is currently looking like 3/16.
Realistically, the tenant mess is going to be left to my dad, the relator, and my sister/a local lawyer to hash out. I only got involved because I was going to be there. Sis is a lawyer, but not that kind, so she'll help to a point, and we're just about at the point where she's going to say that they have to find a lawyer locally to deal with it.
Wow, nice.
How did the buyers respond to the fact that the tenant hasn't paid for months?
And what happens if the tenant is NOT out on the 15th? Call a sheriff? Will closing still happen?
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Wow! I'm frankly shocked that someone was willing to buy it with a month-to-month tenant who is behind on the rent (and not agreeing to vacate).
I would be prepared and tell your parents to prepare for the sale to fall through. If the tenant is still in the home on 3/15, the new prospective-owner would be crazy to close and it seems like having someone still living in the property they are supposed to buy would give them very sufficient reason to walk away.
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The buyer is actually a neighbor-ish. My parents don't know them well, but they've met, and they are looking for a place for the wife's mother. They live on the next street over. They know my parent's cat and the little girl who came with mom for the showing was very intent on asking if the cat would be moving too. Apparently they play together? Is the cat's MO.
I believe there's contingencies, etc re the tenant. I don't have the paperwork to check details though. Plus, the intent is for the tenant to vacate, and I believe that's what's been communicated/agreed to. If that doesn't happen, then yeah, problem. There's also a contingency for an inspection.
I've been told that slow, inefficient efforts are in motion to find a local lawyer. (Dad. sigh.) But hopefully that will result in a lawyer later this week. We're letting it play out for now, because the approach dad took will either result in a lawyer recommendation or a "sorry I don't know anyone, but you need to find a real estate lawyer".
A letter is being prepared to notify the tenant that they accepted an offer. I'm not involved in that - no clue. Sister is helping, relator is helping, so it should be ok. Once this letter is delivered, if there's anything other than "yes, I understand, I will be out by the 15th", then I will tell parents they HAVE to get a real estate lawyer involved, ASAP, or risk the closing. Sister will back me up, she already wants to be done with this.
On the off chance - anyone know a real estate lawyer in Detroit, MI area?
Edit:
Talked to dad earlier. He is of the opinion that they're ok for now without a lawyer, but if the tenant doesn't agree to move out he doesn't know what to do. I convinced him to find a local real estate lawyer now, just in case. I will talk to my sister tonight, that's her department and she'll push that forward. They did call the city and talk to whomever is involved in rentals, they approved of what had been done so far but recommended the addition of a standard form to add weight to the notice to vacate. So they're going to do that form along with the letter informing him the house sold.
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On the off chance - anyone know a real estate lawyer in Detroit, MI area?
I don't know any real estate lawyers in MI. However, there is a trick I have used in the past - just in case it proves to be useful for you.
I would look up the large residential apartment complexes in your area, find out the lawyer that accepts service on their behalf (should be public information) - and that group/lawyer should be a reasonably good one given a large apartment complex uses them.
IF you want to do further due diligence, do this for multiple apartment complexes nearby, and if you find a popular lawyer used by multiple apartment complexes, then you found a popular lawyer.
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On the off chance - anyone know a real estate lawyer in Detroit, MI area?
I don't know any real estate lawyers in MI. However, there is a trick I have used in the past - just in case it proves to be useful for you.
I would look up the large residential apartment complexes in your area, find out the lawyer that accepts service on their behalf (should be public information) - and that group/lawyer should be a reasonably good one given a large apartment complex uses them.
IF you want to do further due diligence, do this for multiple apartment complexes nearby, and if you find a popular lawyer used by multiple apartment complexes, then you found a popular lawyer.
I like it. May not work for their area as all the complexes nearby are senior housing so might be different. But I will pass it on to my sister as the designated deal with the legal stuff daughter :)
I get revenge for all the stuff she's passed to me as the designated deal with financial stuff daughter!
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Not sure what argument the tenant is going to put forth for not moving, but it might be possible for the buyers to use the reason that they are moving in family. That is allowable here even when there’s no other reason for evicting. My uncle did that in a building he owned when his mother wanted a suite there.
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Good on you for keeping your cool. I don't think I could have.
Wayne County is serving evictions. He's going to be out one way or the other.
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I think not getting a lawyer involved immediately is a big mistake if they are dependent on this house closing 3/15. If the tenant wants to fight these things usually don't go quickly, even if you are in the right.
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Gronnie, I don't disagree - but I don't have power here. I'm doing what I can to push them getting a local lawyer.
SunnyDays - I have no idea either, but the tenant has no legal option here from what I've been told. He's on a month to month lease. He's been given appropriate notice to vacate. Even if he would end up homeless, he's not going to get much sympathy from anyone. He's basically not been paying rent for 3/4 of a year, while on a month to month lease the entire time, and his landlords didn't make any moves to try to evict or otherwise tell him to move out until they were preparing to retire, sell, and move out of state. And they could have, at any point, and the eviction moratorium would not have applied.
Needless to say, I'm not liking this guy.
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I would look at covid moratoriums in your neck of the woods. Last I heard Biden pushed everything out until March or so.
With that said, this is unacceptable to me. I have been a landlord for about 20 years now and I always say to my tenants "Communication is key" because once that breaks down you know what hits the fan. I would say to my tenants if something happens and you can't pay the rent then you need to talk to me about what you "can" pay and how the rest will be paid.
Regardless of Covid, there is still no free ride. I know I sound harsh, but there are UI benefits, things like that, at least he should make some kind of effort to pay something and not slack off and make the Covid excuse.
Did you tell him you were selling? I am not sure if it would make a difference anyway, but if I were you/your parents, I would give him nothing. I would just start the eviction process and get him out. Depending on where you live, without a moratorium, you could have him out in about a month.
I would also sue for back-rent. If there is any deposit left, you can keep that to cover your expenses. As far as him thrashing the place, believe me, it is probably already thrashed.
Thrashed rental = cost of doing business
Get rid of him, don't give him money.
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40 years ago we bought a house with tenants. It was a 2 family. It was Nextdoor to my parents and we knew the gay couple in the unit we were moving into. They were long term renters and wanted to buy the house but weren’t given a chance because my family was friends of the owner. We knew that they were very fussy, didn’t like kids and were immaculate. They refused to move and my third baby was due in a month. So I knocked on the door with my 2 and 6 year old letting them know that the 4 of us soon to be 5 would be moving in on Xmas eve whether they were gone or not. They left before then.
I just got a divorce and put a offer on a condo with a renter with the provision that the renter must be out 4 days before closing. The lease is up at the end of February and the owner agreed. We actually met the renter and he was nice and intends to leave. I wouldn’t close on a house with a renter. My agent contacted the other agent and if there had been any hint of trouble I wouldn’t have made a offer. If you can get your dad to commit to a lawyer immediately that would be the best route.
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Mom has decided that they do indeed need a lawyer, so they are working on that this week. Annoying that it took another realtor saying what my sister and I had already said to get her to that point, but whatever.
BTW - if you EVER have any sort of cognitive decline, get out of the the rental business. This would be much easier if dad was able to have the kinds of conversations that are needed here. He isn't, and that isn't going to change. I don't care if you think you're able to. Get out before you screw your family with having to get you out.
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BTW - if you EVER have any sort of cognitive decline, get out of the the rental business. This would be much easier if dad was able to have the kinds of conversations that are needed here. He isn't, and that isn't going to change. I don't care if you think you're able to. Get out before you screw your family with having to get you out.
This is one of my real fears generally about the later part of my life, particularly as I likely won't have any family around to get me out of messy situations I might get myself into.
I know it's an obnoxious mess that is not of your making, but seriously good for you and your sister for the time, effort, and worry you're both putting in to helping to resolve the situation your father/your parents are in right now. He/they are fortunate to have the two of you.
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BTW - if you EVER have any sort of cognitive decline, get out of the the rental business. This would be much easier if dad was able to have the kinds of conversations that are needed here. He isn't, and that isn't going to change. I don't care if you think you're able to. Get out before you screw your family with having to get you out.
This is one of my real fears generally about the later part of my life, particularly as I likely won't have any family around to get me out of messy situations I might get myself into.
I know it's an obnoxious mess that is not of your making, but seriously good for you and your sister for the time, effort, and worry you're both putting in to helping to resolve the situation your father/your parents are in right now. He/they are fortunate to have the two of you.
me too. There are several stupid situations I have had to deal with that I wont be able to do in 10-15 years. As it is now, I am a little impaired.reducing places that hold our financial instruments is a goal.
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Parents have a call into a lawyer. This is progress.
Dad went and talked to tenant. Tenant tried to weasel out of talking, dad surprisingly was able to push back and asked to know what tenant's plan was to move out. Tenant replied that he would need to talk to some people who were helping him. So, not all that helpful, but honestly more than I expected. It also puts tenant on notice that, yeah, they mean it. Since clearly the letter telling him to move out didn't have that effect!
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Since why not, update.
Dad got a text message yesterday from tenant, saying that "we would like to talk tomorrow [Thursday]". No idea who "we" is, the guy lives alone. Sister talked dad through what to say and not say. They're expecting a lawyer or legal papers possibly, but I haven't talked to sister to find out. Will come back and report what happened when I find out.
I also had a knockdown screaming fight with mom because she's terrible at business and doesn't want to pay the tenant to go away (before the text message). She hung up on me. This is normal however and if I called she'd be fine. I just don't want to deal with her right now.
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Mother will have to decide if her principles are worth the sale falling through and possibly losing a lot more money than the cash for keys would cost.
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Since why not, update.
. . .
Definitely keep us updated!
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Mother will have to decide if her principles are worth the sale falling through and possibly losing a lot more money than the cash for keys would cost.
She can hate it all she wants - dad has final say in that particular area, and he is just fine with cash for keys. Mom is stressed and not handling it well, while also not admitting that she's stressed and not handling it well.
I do have to laugh re the house search in IN. The realtor they're using is the same one I used to buy my house and she's amazing. She's got the dynamics down perfectly. Mom has to like the house, dad will agree with mom unless he sees big problems, and I have to approve the house condition/location. I'll be going to showing with them as much as possible.
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Update, and breakthrough!
Tenant talked to dad. He's aware that he needs to move out now. Apparently, he had initially been told by someone that he didn't have to move out due to the Covid moratorium. Someone else apparently took a 2nd look and said no, that didn't apply. So he knows he has to move.
Problem is he's flat broke. He's long out of savings, and his unemployment is messed up so he doesn't even have that coming in. He also apparently doesn't have a lot of friends/family to fall back on. He has no idea what he's going to do. Parents are offering him some cash to help him out (3-5k is the range I heard).
So, this should be ok. I'm just pissed with this idiot that he shut down the communication. This same conversation could have been held 3 weeks ago and prevented a lot of stress. Ugh. Idiot.
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I'm glad that the tenant now realizes he needs to move out. That is a huge step in the right direction.
In every instance I've heard "cash for keys" in the past, it is always people moving in, not out. They are giving the current owner cash for the keys, not the other way around, but I suppose the expression works the other way around.
As the previous poster wrote, I agree that you should be quite careful how much money he is being given to get out. Unfortunately I've had some "no good deed goes unpunished" experiences where I was really above and beyond nice to someone after they messed up, so then they turned around and demanded even more from me a few days later. Ugh. It happens.
Remember: HE owes YOU money, not the other way around. In fact, he owes your parents A LOT of money at this point. It sounds like you are mad at your Mom about having this stance, and that she can be both rude and difficult sometimes in general, but I tend to agree with her on this topic. I wouldn't have hung up on you, though! Good luck with everything, Sibley, and good job keeping things moving forward.
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Dad offered $3k to tenant to help him move out.
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Well, this particular saga doesn't seem likely to end. Relayed through sister.
Dad talked to tenant, asked how he was doing and if he'd found a new place yet. Tenant responded that he was going to get a personal protection order against dad and that dad was an awful man, and he would not leave.
Sigh. Sister told dad to call the lawyer.
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Assuming ll/tenant laws work similarly in MI as they do here, in this specific case, I'm afraid, no good deed will go unpunished in case this ends up in front of a judge.
If you dad had acted as a professional "heartless" landlord who had initiated the eviction proceedings right when a default occurred for the first time (i.e. first time tenant was late by > 10 days, or whatever is the boundary in your state), and kept all paperwork up to date for eviction even if COVID moratorium applied, then he would have a much easier time to do the eviction now.
Now that he has shown ability and willingness to go along for a long time without rent, AND offered cash for keys, the judge will see a broke jobless man struggling (=the deadbeat tenant) and a rich landlord (=your dad) and drag the proceedings out for an unreasonably long period.
My train buddy I referenced upthread fought this for > 1 year before he got possession of his house.
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Please try to convince your dad to stop talking to the tenant. What your dad is doing can be construed as harassment in court.
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I watched a YouTube news story about a couple in California who hired a nanny for their young children and after three weeks they had to fire her because she was no longer performing. But she squatted in the house with the law behind her because of California tenant rights.
The film Pacific Heights introduced me years ago to California squatters rights.Scary as hell.
Sorry OP to hijack your thread, it just reminded me of landlording in California.
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Oh Sibley, I'm sorry to read that! Concur with Mozar that your Dad should not talk to the tenant again. All communication must go through the lawyer and be written from here on out. As a tenant, I have had to use the word "harassment" in written communication when I felt that the landlord was over-stepping reasonable boundaries and contacting me too frequently. What a mess.
Yeah, that "nanny" case was very eye opening to me. The "nanny" clearly knew what she was doing, but it still had a "two sides to every story" vibe to me. She did work for them for several months before she started refusing to work. There are definitely plenty of au pair horror stories online (from the perspective of the au pair), and it is probably not reasonable to assume that the hiring couple was entirely blameless for what happened. So, perhaps they had required too much "overtime", extra cooking/cleaning, or made some other demands or intrusions that the judge felt was unreasonable? Or perhaps she got sick and they had no sympathy and no plans for what to do when she got sick? On the flip side, she had a pattern of suing other people . . . if only they had included civil lawsuits in their "background check".
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I found out that the conversation was actually via text. So that is written. Lawyer has been hired, and paperwork, including screenshots of the text messages (I hope, it's possible mom took pictures of the phone with her digital camera) have been delivered to the lawyer today. Lawyer I'm sure has instructed not to talk to tenant further. I will reinforce, as well as my sister I'm sure.
As far I know, parents haven't talked to the tenant since the 18th, at least until the text message today.
@ctuser1 - tenant isn't being evicted for nonpayment. Tenant was notified that he had to move out as the lease is ended. It's month to month, been that way for quite a while. As long as he gets the required 30 days notice, which he did, he has to move. From what has been passed onto me from the lawyer, an eviction if necessary would likely take about a month.
Concurrent to all this of course they're also starting to house hunt over by me. Which is its own can of worms that I AM heavily involved in, mom is driving me batty.
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I hope your parents get a judgement for the back rent. Hopefully that (eventually) pays for the lawyer's fees and then some.
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Paul,
The tenant most likely has no money and no assets. Doesn't matter if you can get a judgement if you can't collect.
The best thing here is to get the attorney involved just enough to get the tenant out.
Sorry to hear all this OP.
Best of luck!
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Well, mom the loose cannon is possibly going to be a loose cannon (again). She's anxious because they still haven't been told by tenant what his plans are. So she wrote a letter for tenant pretty much demanding that he tell her what his plans are. Thank goodness there's a lawyer involved, because she's being smart enough to know that she needs to consult the lawyer. Please cross your fingers the lawyer shuts it down. Sister and I have already told her very clearly that she MUST do what the lawyer says, even if she doesn't like it.
Otherwise, things are quiet. Sister and I are concerned about her overall mental state and will be watching her, and the finances, more carefully. Frankly, she's 65 and we're having to help with things as if she were 80. That's not a good sign.
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Oof. I understand why she wants to know, especially since he has been so non-committal about whether he is going to vacate. But (and I'm sure you know this), she doesn't have any right to information about the specifics of his moving plans. He's either gone on the day he's supposed to be, or he's not. What day is he supposed to be out? And is the cash for keys offer still in play?
I'd be surprised if the lawyer allows it, but at least she is compliant WRT listening to him.
Have you and your sister considered broaching the subject of some sort of PoA or other legal [partial] control of their assets, if you are willing to take that on? This sounds like a recipe for a scammer or very costly mistake, in general, not just as far as the house.
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He's supposed to be out the 15th. Cross your fingers. And yes, I get it. I'm nervous, he could really screw up a lot if he's not out. I've had enough fights with her over stuff related to the tenant that I know she won't listen to me. Dad is much more with it regarding this stuff, so with any luck he'll put his foot down. Not sure if he will though. At this time, cash for keys is still in play. If tenant doesn't leave by the 15th, it's off though.
POA, etc is actually all setup, though nothing is in use currently. I have access to most financial stuff, and I think I'm on the checking account. Dad is at risk for scams, and has already had a few things happen, luckily small dollars. Mom is vulnerable to different scam type things than dad, but she forwards the emails to my sister for vetting at least. As painful as this whole process is, moving them closer to me really is going to help.
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He's supposed to be out the 15th. Cross your fingers. And yes, I get it. I'm nervous, he could really screw up a lot if he's not out. I've had enough fights with her over stuff related to the tenant that I know she won't listen to me. Dad is much more with it regarding this stuff, so with any luck he'll put his foot down. Not sure if he will though. At this time, cash for keys is still in play. If tenant doesn't leave by the 15th, it's off though.
POA, etc is actually all setup, though nothing is in use currently. I have access to most financial stuff, and I think I'm on the checking account. Dad is at risk for scams, and has already had a few things happen, luckily small dollars. Mom is vulnerable to different scam type things than dad, but she forwards the emails to my sister for vetting at least. As painful as this whole process is, moving them closer to me really is going to help.
Glad to hear this is almost over. Even if the renter throws a fit, seems like your parents are in a good position to win regardless. Its insanely stressful, but at least a lawyer is involved and the renter knows they have no meaningful legal recourse.
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Well, mom didn't send a letter. The lawyer did. No idea what it said, but the lawyer wrote it so I'm going to assume it's ok. Parents are both saying they're leaving everything to the lawyer.
Coincidentally, I will be visiting them next weekend. Just before the deadline of the 15th. I didn't plan it that way, it's just what worked out. So if necessary, I'll be on hand to sit on any mad plans.
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Probably was sent certified mail, express delivery and says something like:
Dear Mr. Tenant,
The law firm of Dewey, Cheatum, & Howe has been retained to represent the real estate empire of your landlords: the Sibley family. Our clients provided me with a copy of the written notice you previously received. This written notice specifies you must vacate their property at One VeryNice Place, Pleasantville, AM on or before March 15, 2021.
If you have any questions or need more information about this matter, then you should respond in writing. Please direct all such correspondence to my attention at the email or address provided above on this very official looking, intimidating, heavy weight, bonded paper letterhead stationary.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Cordially,
Hector Cheatum, III, Esq.
Not being a lawyer, that's what I imagine they would think is okay to send at this stage.
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I imagine you're correct. The subtext being, of course, move out or you'll be kicked out. Which is the case. Cross your fingers he moves out this week/next weekend.
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Holding a good thought for you and your parents this goes reasonably smoothly, @Sibley.
Are your mom & dad moving closer to you? I remember you discussing this at some point. Hope all goes well.
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Holding a good thought for you and your parents this goes reasonably smoothly, @Sibley.
Are your mom & dad moving closer to you? I remember you discussing this at some point. Hope all goes well.
@calimom Yes, they're moving to my area. Move date is 3/25 (wish me luck), and they're looking for a house to buy. They will be staying with me until they find a place. They're actually coming tomorrow to look at a house.
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Holding a good thought for you and your parents this goes reasonably smoothly, @Sibley.
Are your mom & dad moving closer to you? I remember you discussing this at some point. Hope all goes well.
@calimom Yes, they're moving to my area. Move date is 3/25 (wish me luck), and they're looking for a house to buy. They will be staying with me until they find a place. They're actually coming tomorrow to look at a house.
Are they also considering your father's early dementia? I have seen what it costs for a spouse to live with a dement partner and when the illness progresses, it is not possible for 1 person to provide that care.
Maybe they should buy something not too big that your mother could also live alone in when that time comes, while your father could move into a care home.
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Holding a good thought for you and your parents this goes reasonably smoothly, @Sibley.
Are your mom & dad moving closer to you? I remember you discussing this at some point. Hope all goes well.
@calimom Yes, they're moving to my area. Move date is 3/25 (wish me luck), and they're looking for a house to buy. They will be staying with me until they find a place. They're actually coming tomorrow to look at a house.
Are they also considering your father's early dementia? I have seen what it costs for a spouse to live with a dement partner and when the illness progresses, it is not possible for 1 person to provide that care.
Maybe they should buy something not too big that your mother could also live alone in when that time comes, while your father could move into a care home.
Sorta. What they're looking for is SFH ranch or similar, around 1000 sq feet. If they were really considering long term, they'd be looking for a condo so there's no exterior maintenance, but they won't consider that because the 13 year old cat with arthritis and epilepsy wants to go outside. Oh, and mom had a really bad experience about 40 years ago with condo neighbors.
The house yesterday is a no. Wonky layout around the bathroom/utilities/laundry which makes the house unworkable for them. Of course, dad didn't like it because the driveway needed to be replaced and mom objected to the fence falling down. Given the lack of houses on the market, I'll be hitting them over the head at some point telling them to buy a house that will work, despite whatever minor issues it has.
And mom said that she saw empty boxes on the landing when they got home, so sounds like the tenant is packing.
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Update:
I'm sitting on the couch at my parent's place, doing their taxes. Taxes are not going well but I'm getting it sorted out. Thank goodness some of the complicated stuff was done last year so it's no longer a factor. Packing is going well. There will be the usual last minute scramble of course for stuff in daily use, but I think it'll be ok. Am concerned about how much food they'll have left over but not much I can do about that.
Tenant hasn't moved out yet at least. He has until tomorrow. Cross your fingers.
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Wow, what an exciting take between the tenant, the taxes, the move, and the house hunting!
I can only imagine the frustration of getting them to accept reality of aging and the housing market simultaneously!
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Dumb thought from someone who has absolutely 0 experience in being a landlord, but regardless of whether or not the tenant is broke, if they truly trash the place (at least as I'm visualizing it), couldn't criminal charges be pursued? I'm thinking of things being wrecked - cabinetry messed up, doors broken, etc. If this is the case, would that alone not persuade someone to not do it?
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Dumb thought from someone who has absolutely 0 experience in being a landlord, but regardless of whether or not the tenant is broke, if they truly trash the place (at least as I'm visualizing it), couldn't criminal charges be pursued? I'm thinking of things being wrecked - cabinetry messed up, doors broken, etc. If this is the case, would that alone not persuade someone to not do it?
Sure, you could, but if the tenant is broke anyways you're going to spend $5k to get $0 from the tenant.
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Dumb thought from someone who has absolutely 0 experience in being a landlord, but regardless of whether or not the tenant is broke, if they truly trash the place (at least as I'm visualizing it), couldn't criminal charges be pursued? I'm thinking of things being wrecked - cabinetry messed up, doors broken, etc. If this is the case, would that alone not persuade someone to not do it?
Sure, you could, but if the tenant is broke anyways you're going to spend $5k to get $0 from the tenant.
Right, I'm totally with you that a civil suit wouldn't be worth anything in that situation, but couldn't they be prosecuted criminally? I mean, if someone breaks into my house and steals something, I'd hope they would be actually arrested. If they smashed my windows or broke in and destroyed my stove, I would hope for the same. They might not be likely to be caught because we wouldn't know who they were, but in this case, it would be obvious who the person is. I guess I'm just confused why there wouldn't be actual jail time for someone who destroyed or stole someone else's property, and if there was jail time for it, that alone would be a disincentive for someone to do that without you needing to spend any money on your own end to sue in civil court, right? Again, I realize I'm very ignorant and probably missing something obvious.
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A criminal case could be made if it was clear that the person intentionally destroyed enough of the landlord's property (depending on law in that jurisdiction). But tenant damage is generally a civil matter.
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Can the attorney figure out if the tenant has been receiving unemployment?
I know I'm not there and don't know anything about this dude aside from what's been posted here, but I just can't shake the feeling that this guy is just taking OP's parents for a ride.
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Tenant did not move out. Lawyer is filing for eviction tomorrow. Closing has been delayed but not completely cancelled, I don't know a new date yet. Parent's move is going forward as scheduled next week, only difference is dad will be staying at the house rather than going to my house. Mom and the cats are moving.
No indication that tenant is trashing the place. Past experience with the guy is he's a neat freak who really can't stand dirt/mess. No idea what the guy is thinking, but yes I would agree he's trying to take advantage of the parents. Thought is being given to the parents suing for back rent, etc. That hasn't been decided yet. Mom is feeling vincidive and wants to sue, the rest of us are more moderate right now.
All this of course was figured out while I was driving home. Thank goodness for bluetooth technology.
Michigan does have a bunch of unemployment stuff that's under review and it's plausible that tenant isn't getting any money. No idea if this can be confirmed.
Edit: And I got their taxes sorted out. Will hold off on filing for now for reasons not related to the newest stimulus, but at least they're done.
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Ugh I’m sorry they still have to deal with this. It must be super stressful.
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No indication that tenant is trashing the place. Past experience with the guy is he's a neat freak who really can't stand dirt/mess. No idea what the guy is thinking, but yes I would agree he's trying to take advantage of the parents. Thought is being given to the parents suing for back rent, etc. That hasn't been decided yet. Mom is feeling vincidive and wants to sue, the rest of us are more moderate right now.
Random suggestion from a non-lawyer based on second-hand information from a different state:
Please focus on the eviction first, and worry about suing for back rent *after* your parents have physical possession of the property.
The best outcome is if the tenant does not show in the eviction hearing. If he does, and knows how to play the game, then (depending on local laws) he may or may not be able to cook up some sob story and stretch this for a very long time. I mentioned my train buddy upthread who had to fight this with a "professional tenant" for > 1 year.
The back rent stuff may be peanuts compared to the financial damage the tenant still has the ability to inflict on your parents.
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No indication that tenant is trashing the place. Past experience with the guy is he's a neat freak who really can't stand dirt/mess. No idea what the guy is thinking, but yes I would agree he's trying to take advantage of the parents. Thought is being given to the parents suing for back rent, etc. That hasn't been decided yet. Mom is feeling vincidive and wants to sue, the rest of us are more moderate right now.
Random suggestion from a non-lawyer based on second-hand information from a different state:
Please focus on the eviction first, and worry about suing for back rent *after* your parents have physical possession of the property.
The best outcome is if the tenant does not show in the eviction hearing. If he does, and knows how to play the game, then (depending on local laws) he may or may not be able to cook up some sob story and stretch this for a very long time. I mentioned my train buddy upthread who had to fight this with a "professional tenant" for > 1 year.
The back rent stuff may be peanuts compared to the financial damage the tenant still has the ability to inflict on your parents.
One way or another, there won't be a lawsuit. Can't get blood out of a stone.
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Closing rescheduled for next week Tuesday 23rd. Eviction paperwork has been filed, that's all I know.
Sister and I are kinda assuming that the sale is going to fall through. Our plans don't change either way. The stuff to be moved is being loaded onto the truck next week. Parents (and cats) are going to stay at the house, at least for now. There's enough that isn't moving that they'll be ok. (this is parent's decision) There will be some logistical complications, not least because some addresses have already been chanced to my house, but we should be ok.
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Given how fast and tight most real estate markets seem to be in the country right now, I would be more optimistic that the buyers will be willing to wait rather than have to go back on the market, stress about whether they will find another suitable property, and probably end up paying significantly more.
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Given how fast and tight most real estate markets seem to be in the country right now, I would be more optimistic that the buyers will be willing to wait rather than have to go back on the market, stress about whether they will find another suitable property, and probably end up paying significantly more.
Strong possibility. We don't care either way honestly, sister and I are making plans which will cope either way.
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Given how fast and tight most real estate markets seem to be in the country right now, I would be more optimistic that the buyers will be willing to wait rather than have to go back on the market, stress about whether they will find another suitable property, and probably end up paying significantly more.
Strong possibility. We don't care either way honestly, sister and I are making plans which will cope either way.
Another positive spin - even if it does fall through, the extreme buyer-friendly market means your parents almost certainly won't have trouble selling the place once the tenant is out.
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Ok, this is just funny. Dad for some reason was looking at the estate sale ads, and they found the rental address. Tenant is having an estate sale on Saturday. Realtor is going to have someone from the office go and see if they can find anything out. And they'll also have a chance to check condition.
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Ok, this is just funny. Dad for some reason was looking at the estate sale ads, and they found the rental address. Tenant is having an estate sale on Saturday. Realtor is going to have someone from the office go and see if they can find anything out. And they'll also have a chance to check condition.
Maybe the renter realizes the jig is up and plans to live in his car, where he won't need furniture. Hopefully, he's not trying to sell your dad's property.
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Ok, this is just funny. Dad for some reason was looking at the estate sale ads, and they found the rental address. Tenant is having an estate sale on Saturday. Realtor is going to have someone from the office go and see if they can find anything out. And they'll also have a chance to check condition.
That actually seems like a decent sign to me. It indicates he's probably preparing to move. Hopefully.
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...Hopefully, he's not trying to sell your dad's property.
This! Someone needs to make sure nothing of your parent's is being sold...
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...Hopefully, he's not trying to sell your dad's property.
This! Someone needs to make sure nothing of your parent's is being sold...
Shouldn't be a problem, there are doors, locks, etc. My parent's things simply aren't accessible. The worst that could happen is a couple of window A/Cs could be sold off, and while that would be unfortunate, it wouldn't be the end of the world. They were going to stay with the house/be sold anyway. And the company doing the sale is a legit one. I found the ad, and looking at the pictures, it really looks like he's selling pretty much everything. I'd share it, but you know, privacy.
Court date for eviction is set, 4/7. Closing was rescheduled to Tuesday. Cross your fingers the guy leaves sooner than that.
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Many estate sale companies have a mechanism for removing unsold items at the end of the sale (through offers to purchase in bulk at the end and/or donation trucks that show up to pick up remaining items). So, it really does seem possible that the place will be completely empty by Monday, which would be excellent news for your parents.
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I was thinking about your parents today, @Sibley. Were they able to go to closing? Did the estate sale go smoothly? If the tenant sold everything, did he move out or is he staying in the empty house?
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@AMandM Damn tenant is still there. Closing was extended again to mid April. Not yet scheduled though. I just got home today from their house, the movers came Thursday and everything they're keeping got loaded up. Parents are basically camping out in the house. There's enough that they're not keeping that they're ok for a few weeks.
Based on the timing that I'm aware of, if things get to the throw his crap on the curb stage, we're thinking that will be 4/20ish or thereabouts. My sister gets the really fun job now - realtor doesn't think we'll really be able to extend possession after closing much to have a sale, so we need to figure that out. Or rather, she gets to figure that out.
Tenant didn't sell everything in his sale. Apparently he has a greatly inflated opinion of the value of his things. In fact, he called the police to complain about the estate sale company he used. Then while I was there this week, they showed up and removed various things, as well as had an argument on the front lawn. The tenant is not making many friends.
Also, it turns out that my parents have no idea how to move long distance, pack a truck, or wrangle cats during a move. Of course mom argued with me all day and on several occasions told me to stop treating her like a child. I got fed up at some point and told her to stop acting like a child. Which at least got me some peace for a bit. The next day though, I think she'd had a chance to reflect and had some realization that everything that had worried or surprised her, I had either predicted or planned for. Probably doesn't help much, but maybe when the cats get moved she'll listen to me!
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@AMandM Damn tenant is still there. Closing was extended again to mid April. Not yet scheduled though. I just got home today from their house, the movers came Thursday and everything they're keeping got loaded up. Parents are basically camping out in the house. There's enough that they're not keeping that they're ok for a few weeks.
Based on the timing that I'm aware of, if things get to the throw his crap on the curb stage, we're thinking that will be 4/20ish or thereabouts. My sister gets the really fun job now - realtor doesn't think we'll really be able to extend possession after closing much to have a sale, so we need to figure that out. Or rather, she gets to figure that out.
Tenant didn't sell everything in his sale. Apparently he has a greatly inflated opinion of the value of his things. In fact, he called the police to complain about the estate sale company he used. Then while I was there this week, they showed up and removed various things, as well as had an argument on the front lawn. The tenant is not making many friends.
Also, it turns out that my parents have no idea how to move long distance, pack a truck, or wrangle cats during a move. Of course mom argued with me all day and on several occasions told me to stop treating her like a child. I got fed up at some point and told her to stop acting like a child. Which at least got me some peace for a bit. The next day though, I think she'd had a chance to reflect and had some realization that everything that had worried or surprised her, I had either predicted or planned for. Probably doesn't help much, but maybe when the cats get moved she'll listen to me!
There are usually companies that will come and take every thing away. They won't give you any money for it, but they will take it all and sell what they can. Having that set up for the day after closing, once you are certain when closing will be, might be the best way to go.
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So has the tenant been officially served and has been told get out by this day, or we'll throw your crap in the street (nicely I'm assuming, but that's what should happen right?)
I can't imagine what he's thinking here. He's incapable of finding ANYTHING - fast food/cashier/shelf stocker - that could bring in enough money and go rent a room somewhere until he gets a better job? He has it appears spent this time not working, not looking, thought he'd make 50K off of selling his crappy apartment stuff, and is going to have no job and an eviction on his record now, and I assume shitty credit to boot. He may end up living in a cardboard box and it is going to be his own damned fault.
I am so sorry your parents are having to deal with this and you and your sibling as well. Sounds just so frustrating and would be a constant jangle of stress to me...
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Oh, man, Sibley, what a rotten situation. I am so sorry.
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So has the tenant been officially served and has been told get out by this day, or we'll throw your crap in the street (nicely I'm assuming, but that's what should happen right?)
I can't imagine what he's thinking here. He's incapable of finding ANYTHING - fast food/cashier/shelf stocker - that could bring in enough money and go rent a room somewhere until he gets a better job? He has it appears spent this time not working, not looking, thought he'd make 50K off of selling his crappy apartment stuff, and is going to have no job and an eviction on his record now, and I assume shitty credit to boot. He may end up living in a cardboard box and it is going to be his own damned fault.
I am so sorry your parents are having to deal with this and you and your sibling as well. Sounds just so frustrating and would be a constant jangle of stress to me...
Multi step process. Suit has been filed, court date is set. If judge grants the eviction order (or whatever it's called), tenant has 10 days to get out, if he doesn't then they go back to court and get the throw-the-stuff-on-the-curb order. We're thinking later in April if we get to that last stage.
Based on a random convo I had with a guy at the little food market a block away, I suspect tenant has some mental issues or something that results in recurring self-sabotage. He actually has somewhere to go, and a vehicle to get there. I've heard that it's not the greatest option in the world, but he could have spared himself all of this. At this point, he owes my parents/has cost them something like $15k in total. And he's broke, so even if they sued him, there's nothing to get.
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There are usually companies that will come and take every thing away. They won't give you any money for it, but they will take it all and sell what they can. Having that set up for the day after closing, once you are certain when closing will be, might be the best way to go.
That's an option. Sister is handling it. We have a friendly contact with a local estate sale company, she's going to talk to him, give him the current situation, and get his recommendation. I told sister that I'm perfectly content with a cash-neutral option if that's the best we can do. We're running out of time, and we have to clear the house.
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He's not totally broke if he owns the car.
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I suppose if you're down and out already, having an eviction on your file doesn't matter to you. I've been surprised by how many tenants I've had who didn't know what an eviction was, legally speaking, and how it could affect their lives.
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Oy, he sounds difficult at best. Hopefully this will end reasonably well, but he's sure not making anything smooth.
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Well, this is a TERRIBLE idea, but it's happening and nothing I can say or do is going to stop it. I'm just grateful that my sister has to deal with it and not me.
Sister talked to the estate sale guy, and he doesn't think it makes sense to do a sale, but instead just donate everything. Sister then talked to parents and mom is adamant that there will be a sale. So, mom is doing a sale. Basically, a glorified garage sale. April 9 and 10. Then, anything that doesn't sell, sister will arrange for donation pickup.
Thank god this isn't my problem. I won't even be there. The only thing I'm going to do is ask my friend in town if his VFW has tables that could be borrowed/rented for a couple days to put things on.
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Sounds like they are moving anything that has real value, which makes sense.
If the garage sale gets properly advertised and set up, then they will likely make a buck or two if things are priced right. Maybe even a couple of hundred if they have lots of stuff and your mom likes to haggle and strike a deal.
In any event, it is a ton of work just hauling stuff outside, but if you don't haul things outside it probably won't work because people will just do a drive by without stopping. Lol, I hope she's an early bird! You are wise to stay far away.
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Ugh. Please cross your fingers.
Tenant has a lawyer. No idea how he got a lawyer if he can't pay the lawyer, but ok. Tenant's lawyer called parent's lawyer last week and was trying to do the "woe is me" act. Unsuccessfully. Well, now tenant has requested a jury trial. The judge on Wednesday will decide if that is to be granted, apparently it's if he thinks there's a question of fact vs question of law. Jury trial would drag things out of course.
Glorified garage sale is Friday and Saturday this week. Sister is there, helping with that.
Closing has been extended again. The buyer wants the house for the location (next door to grandkids), so best guess is as long as buyer has flexibility, they will wait.
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Ugh. Please cross your fingers.
Tenant has a lawyer. No idea how he got a lawyer if he can't pay the lawyer, but ok. Tenant's lawyer called parent's lawyer last week and was trying to do the "woe is me" act. Unsuccessfully. Well, now tenant has requested a jury trial. The judge on Wednesday will decide if that is to be granted, apparently it's if he thinks there's a question of fact vs question of law. Jury trial would drag things out of course.
Glorified garage sale is Friday and Saturday this week. Sister is there, helping with that.
Closing has been extended again. The buyer wants the house for the location (next door to grandkids), so best guess is as long as buyer has flexibility, they will wait.
WTF.
What moron of a lawyer would even touch this? The guy has zero money, was served with notice legally and was even offered forgiveness of amounts he owed AND cash for keys. Your parents lawyer told the other guy all this right? How on earth does this asshat tenant squatter think he's got a snowball's chance in hell? Does he expect your elderly parents to just continue to live there so he can live there rent free?
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I have no idea. Even if they tried to argue that they're evicting for nonpayment vs selling the place, the fact remains that they put their stuff on a truck and it's now in another state, they're having a giant garage sale this week, they have a sales contract for which they've extended the closing date multiple times... Yeah. Hopefully the judge laughs and grants the eviction or whatever. We'll find out Wednesday.
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Okay, this is the point where iluvzbeach grabs her cheddar popcorn...
In all seriousness, I’m sorry this is happening to your parents. It must be quite stressful.
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A jury trial? Is that even a thing in a case like this?
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So who is paying utilities for this guy? Can your parents just move and have them shut off?
A jury trial. Snort. He’s just doing anything he can to drag this out. I would start making life very unpleasant for him by whatever means possible.
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He’s just doing anything he can to drag this out. I would start making life very unpleasant for him by whatever means possible.
I'd advise the exact opposite reaction. Your parents have a buyer who is willing to delay as long as necessary and a tenant who lacks any credible case. Avoid doing anything that'll let his lawyer portray your parents as the evil landlords, and this should be over quickly. While it can be tempting to try to sink down to this guy's level when it comes to legal disputes with people who have nothing to lose: "Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig will like it."
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It’s not legal to turn off the utilities unfortunately. We just had a moving sale of the stuff we didn’t want and the money adds up fast. We didn’t sell anything valuable and it totaled 550. We did it for 2 partial days.
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Let's hope the renter is not monitoring these forums.
Please do not directly talk to or contact the renter, or do anything like "making his life difficult" that can be construed as "constructive eviction" by the court.
Your family have had direct contact with him in the recent past (as far as I remember). So his (unscrupulous) lawyer's next shit-move is going to be to claim either some form of "constructive eviction", or "implied lease" or both. It is easy to misconstrue verbal conversations and "misunderstand" anything. If possible, please note down the exact dates and whatever transcript of the conversations you can remember from when this saga started.
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Well, considering my parents aren't on the forum, it's ok. They're doing what the lawyer tells them to do. And keep in mind that I'm getting this 2nd hand and they know I understand all the legal details...
So, still in limbo. Michigan supreme court just did something regarding covid and evictions, and it's so brand new that my parents are apparently the first in the state to have to deal with this in court. The judge acknowledged that parents are moving (have a buyer, etc), but he is delaying to next week so he has a chance to study the new stuff better. Reading between the lines - he's calling every judge and lawyer in the state that he can to talk with them about this stuff.
Also, apparently tenant is going to be required to put the monthly rent into an escrow account with the court. Considering he hasn't paid anything in months, that will be amusing. If he doesn't however, then he's in trouble with the court.
Keep your fingers crossed please.
Garage/estate sale is Friday and Saturday this week. If anyone is in the Detroit area and wants to go, pm me and I'll give you the details.
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So who is paying utilities for this guy? Can your parents just move and have them shut off?
A jury trial. Snort. He’s just doing anything he can to drag this out. I would start making life very unpleasant for him by whatever means possible.
Water is combined for the building, my parents pay it. Everything else is unit specific and the tenant is responsible for paying for their unit. They have no way of knowing if he's not paying.
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I'm not sure I understand the situation with the escrow account for the rent. Is this just a thing from now on moving forward until the judge makes a ruling, or is he being required to put all of the back rent he owes into an escrow account with the court?
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There are tenant advocate lawyers that will support the tenant through this process. A jury trial is a typical request because it delays everything. The tenant's lawyer's job here is to delay, delay, delay. Your parents will get their eviction unless some technicality comes up and makes them start again from the beginning. My advice is to be at peace with this situation as much as possible as retaliating in anyway is just going to cause more trouble.
Often the tenant's lawyer will collect some modest amount of money from the tenant, and collect a decent chunk of money if there is a cash for keys offer that gets accepted. The better the lawyer is at delaying this situation the more likely a good cash for keys offer will happen where they will get a payout.
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There are tenant advocate lawyers that will support the tenant through this process. A jury trial is a typical request because it delays everything. The tenant's lawyer's job here is to delay, delay, delay. Your parents will get their eviction unless some technicality comes up and makes them start again from the beginning. My advice is to be at peace with this situation as much as possible as retaliating in anyway is just going to cause more trouble.
Often the tenant's lawyer will collect some modest amount of money from the tenant, and collect a decent chunk of money if there is a cash for keys offer that gets accepted. The better the lawyer is at delaying this situation the more likely a good cash for keys offer will happen where they will get a payout.
I just have to say aggghh, what a broken system.
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There are tenant advocate lawyers that will support the tenant through this process. A jury trial is a typical request because it delays everything. The tenant's lawyer's job here is to delay, delay, delay. Your parents will get their eviction unless some technicality comes up and makes them start again from the beginning. My advice is to be at peace with this situation as much as possible as retaliating in anyway is just going to cause more trouble.
Often the tenant's lawyer will collect some modest amount of money from the tenant, and collect a decent chunk of money if there is a cash for keys offer that gets accepted. The better the lawyer is at delaying this situation the more likely a good cash for keys offer will happen where they will get a payout.
I just have to say aggghh, what a broken system.
Yeah, it is a vicious cycle where no "side" is blameless. You have tenants that like to take advantage like Sibley's parents are facing (and I have seen with one of my friends who tried to become a landlord). At the same time, you have many landlords (including some really big corporations) that do really unethical things.
e.g. I/DW have rented many times. Last 4 times we moved, only once did the landlord treat us fairly in terms of returning the security deposit. The last time around I was so p*ssed that I invested several hundred hours in researching the laws and sued them pro-se and had them pay me back several thousands of $$ in punitive damages for breaking the (very tenant friendly) state landlord-tenant laws in multiple occasions. I joke with DW that we have now evened the scores for all three times that we had been cheated out of our security deposits.
Someone who is similarly familiar with landlord tenant laws as I had to, can easily decide to become what is known as a "professional renter" (there are some very cringeworthy videos on youtube) abusing the system and the unsuspecting landlords and almost living for free.
The system as it is set up today almost encourages bad behavior. Not sure what the solution is. I know it isn't what Arkansas does (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-arkansas-worst-place-rent-america-greg-leding), and yet many problems exist in the bluest of blue states. We probably just have to pick our poison. If so, I will very tentatively and hesitantly side with the blue-state laws, only because renters are generally poorer and need more protection.
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Since you mention that water is combined and your parents pay, encourage them to talk to their landlord about that and whether they need to keep it set up and keep paying the water bill after they leave. The answer is likely yes, so they should be prepared for that.
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Since you mention that water is combined and your parents pay, encourage them to talk to their landlord about that and whether they need to keep it set up and keep paying the water bill after they leave. The answer is likely yes, so they should be prepared for that.
?? My parents are the owners of the building currently, and the water is in their name. If the tenant moves out, then the electric/gas for that until will go into my parent's name until after closing, then the new owners will put everything into their name when they take possession. there's just two sets of gas and electric bills.
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I'm not sure I understand the situation with the escrow account for the rent. Is this just a thing from now on moving forward until the judge makes a ruling, or is he being required to put all of the back rent he owes into an escrow account with the court?
From what I was told, it would only be from the point he was told to vacate forward. But I probably only have half the details. Not even sure if it was finalized.
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Since you mention that water is combined and your parents pay, encourage them to talk to their landlord about that and whether they need to keep it set up and keep paying the water bill after they leave. The answer is likely yes, so they should be prepared for that.
?? My parents are the owners of the building currently, and the water is in their name. If the tenant moves out, then the electric/gas for that until will go into my parent's name until after closing, then the new owners will put everything into their name when they take possession. there's just two sets of gas and electric bills.
I was referring to the time after your parents move out, before the sale and while the tenant is still in his apartment. I was under the impression they are moving out soon, and clearly the sale isn't finalizing soon, but maybe I misunderstood. My point was that when your parents vacate (but before the sale is finalized), they probably can't shut off the water because the tenants will still be in his apartment.
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Since you mention that water is combined and your parents pay, encourage them to talk to their landlord about that and whether they need to keep it set up and keep paying the water bill after they leave. The answer is likely yes, so they should be prepared for that.
?? My parents are the owners of the building currently, and the water is in their name. If the tenant moves out, then the electric/gas for that until will go into my parent's name until after closing, then the new owners will put everything into their name when they take possession. there's just two sets of gas and electric bills.
I think they meant lawyer not landlord.
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Since you mention that water is combined and your parents pay, encourage them to talk to their landlord about that and whether they need to keep it set up and keep paying the water bill after they leave. The answer is likely yes, so they should be prepared for that.
?? My parents are the owners of the building currently, and the water is in their name. If the tenant moves out, then the electric/gas for that until will go into my parent's name until after closing, then the new owners will put everything into their name when they take possession. there's just two sets of gas and electric bills.
I think they meant lawyer not landlord.
Ah yes! That's the confusion. I definitely meant to say they should talk to their *lawyer*. (I literally just typed "landlord" again and had to correct myself). They should seek legal advice to make sure that assuming they are required to keep paying the water bill after they leave, they do so.
Sorry for the confusion and now I understand why you didn't understand my post, OP!
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Since you mention that water is combined and your parents pay, encourage them to talk to their landlord about that and whether they need to keep it set up and keep paying the water bill after they leave. The answer is likely yes, so they should be prepared for that.
?? My parents are the owners of the building currently, and the water is in their name. If the tenant moves out, then the electric/gas for that until will go into my parent's name until after closing, then the new owners will put everything into their name when they take possession. there's just two sets of gas and electric bills.
I think they meant lawyer not landlord.
Ah yes! That's the confusion. I definitely meant to say they should talk to their *lawyer*. (I literally just typed "landlord" again and had to correct myself). They should seek legal advice to make sure that assuming they are required to keep paying the water bill after they leave, they do so.
Sorry for the confusion and now I understand why you didn't understand my post, OP!
ah! Yeah, lawyer being consulted on stuff. However, parents are not vacating until after the tenant is gone, although they have very little in the house.
1st day of garage sale was today. Made a little over $1k, and sold about 1/4 of the stuff. Hoping for a good turnout tomorrow and to sell a bunch more. (In their town, Sunday sales are not done for whatever reason.)
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If the tenant *knows* that your parents are planning to move soon, he (or his lawyer) may be sensing an opportunity of squatting longer because being an absentee landlord is just that much more difficult.
Perhaps your parents can loudly discuss (when the tenant is within earshot) one day how they have cancelled their plan to move for the next 2 years and how this whole situation might turn out to be a boon in disguise because they did not like the idea of moving anyway!
I'm probably just gaming out crazy scenarios here. For a year and a half I followed the day-by-day saga of my train buddy trying to evict a professional renter in NYC. That's why!
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I will mention it to my dad, let him discuss with the lawyer. The tenant isn't talking to them, and
Garage sale is done. My sister thinks they sold about 60% of the stuff, and made around $1700 in total from the 2 days. She's also going to help list some of the furniture that didn't sell on FB marketplace and see if they can sell any of that. And she sent pictures of what's left. I suspect that they started with significantly more stuff than anyone expected based on how much is left vs how much they sold.
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Yay! Some good news for a change!
Court date today on the eviction. Judge stated it was not a case of nonpayment, then went ahead and granted the eviction order. Tenant has 10 days to move out. If he doesn't, then they go back to court to set a date to throw him out. Tenant could appeal, however he would have to put money into escrow with the court first.
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Wasn't the tenant already having to put money into escrow with the court? But in any case, congrats!
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Wasn't the tenant already having to put money into escrow with the court? But in any case, congrats!
Not sure if that was actually implemented.
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Good news!!!
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Great news OP! I'm very happy for your family.
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Oh hurray! I'm glad the way forward looks clear for your parents (and you and your sister), OP. Here's hoping the tenant moves out and it won't have to come to actual eviction.
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Well, mini update. Tenant has been throwing out a lot of stuff, taking boxes and other stuff out of the house to elsewhere, and apparently cancelled his internet service (only know this because stupid Comcast also turned off my parents internet). But nothing official that he's moving out.
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OOOOOOHHHH.
I really hope the douchecanoe is finally going!
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Just curious: has the lawyer advised your parents on what to say if prospective landlords call and ask about him?
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Just curious: has the lawyer advised your parents on what to say if prospective landlords call and ask about him?
Not that I've heard. Knowing them, it would be something like "he was quiet and clean and all was fine until we sold the house and he wouldn't move out and we had to evict him." Even if the lawyer gave them instructions, I wouldn't count on them to remember. Hopefully the tenant would know better. He does have an eviction on his record.
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He's going to leave the place trashed.
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To me, cancelling internet (assuming he cancelled it and is not being cut off for nonpayment) is a really strong sign the tenant is actually serious about leaving.
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We might have a resolution. This is a little shaky still, but a lot of this was done per the lawyer.
Closing is scheduled for 4/30. Turn over the keys on 5/2.
Tenant has been sleeping somewhere else since Tuesday night. He's gotten all but the big stuff out, and he got the couch out today. Internet is turned off up there, the rest of the utilities are still on. Parents called and confirmed that gas/electric was on and in his name, because the idiot left windows open all over and it snowed, so the heat was going full blast. Dad closed the windows. Unit was fine then (not trashed).
Officially, tenant has to be out Saturday. Lawyer told parents to call him Monday morning first thing and let him know if tenant is out or not. Lawyer also said to schedule closing for the 30th. It's only a month and a half later than the original plan!
Right now, I'm planning on driving there Saturday 5/1, then loading them up and driving back on Sunday. It will take 2 cars to get parents, cats, and the stuff they have there still to Indiana. There will be 2 twin beds and 2 area rugs to put in the trash on Sunday. Dad and I can handle that. Poor trash men, this week's trash was massive.
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We might have a resolution. This is a little shaky still, but a lot of this was done per the lawyer.
Closing is scheduled for 4/30. Turn over the keys on 5/2.
Tenant has been sleeping somewhere else since Tuesday night. He's gotten all but the big stuff out, and he got the couch out today. Internet is turned off up there, the rest of the utilities are still on. Parents called and confirmed that gas/electric was on and in his name, because the idiot left windows open all over and it snowed, so the heat was going full blast. Dad closed the windows. Unit was fine then (not trashed).
Officially, tenant has to be out Saturday. Lawyer told parents to call him Monday morning first thing and let him know if tenant is out or not. Lawyer also said to schedule closing for the 30th. It's only a month and a half later than the original plan!
Right now, I'm planning on driving there Saturday 5/1, then loading them up and driving back on Sunday. It will take 2 cars to get parents, cats, and the stuff they have there still to Indiana. There will be 2 twin beds and 2 area rugs to put in the trash on Sunday. Dad and I can handle that. Poor trash men, this week's trash was massive.
AAAAAAAAHHHHH!
Cautiously hopeful/excited that this is going to be over soon for your family!
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If you give the remaining furniture away for free, it might be collected really fast. That is what I did with a few heavy items, a cubic yard of stones and a old cast iron oven. They both disappeared within a day.
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The worst part is always the waiting and uncertainty. Hopefully this will all be a funny story in a few weeks...
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Tenant has been sleeping somewhere else since Tuesday night.
[...]
Officially, tenant has to be out Saturday.
Assuming tenant doesn't sleep there Saturday night, could you then deem him moved out and change the locks?
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The stuff to be disposed of is not in good shape. A whole bunch has been sold/ etc.
Lawyer has provided clear instructions so that's what will be done if necessary. The lawyer is confidant, since he told them to do close on 4/30. Also, changing the locks on a weekend would be way more expensive, mom is currently driving to my house and dad is not trustworthy to handle this kind of thing anymore.
And sister was bored and looking, and saw a potential house for sale 2 block from me. Sent to the realtor hopefully mom can see it tomorrow.
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Fingers crossed that all goes smoothly for your family. Let us know how your mom likes the house.
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The conclusion so far seems to be: hire a laywer and let the professional handle it.
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Well, it WAS a slow motion trainwreck. And I don't think a lawyer could have done anything differently before they got one anyway, but getting one certainly prevented things from getting much worse.
The tenant left the keys in the front stairway. There is a box spring and bedframe still in the unit, but otherwise its empty. The garage door opener has not been returned yet. Dad texted ex-tenant to confirm if he's completely out (ie, abandoning the last 2 things), and asking for the garage door opener.
In happier news, parents are expecting to put an offer on a house today.
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Big congrats! Your parents must be so relieved.
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That’s great! It could have gone better, but it could have gone a lot worse too. I wonder where he moved to?
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Very happy everything is finally resolved.
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Congratulations!!! That must be a huge relief. Now, it looks like closing will finally be able to happen. It's crazy how you can go from stressed that you may continue to have a big fight on your hands to the weight of the world lifted off your shoulders.
Now, hopefully, the offer and a subsequent purchase will go smoothly for your parents' new place.
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LOL dad got a response from ex-tenant: "Contact my lawyer and do not contact me again."
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Based on that response and the fact that he turned in his keys, I would operate under the assumption that anything left behind can be disposed of. Funny how he acts like your parents are the bad guys for selling their home, especially when he hasn’t paid rent in a year.
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LOL dad got a response from ex-tenant: "Contact my lawyer and do not contact me again."
Haha, good riddance!
Also, congrats on Walrus (5000 posts)!
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HOOOOORAAAAAYYYY!!!!
So happy the jerk finally is out! I'll bet everyone is so relieved now.
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So glad this is finally resolved. And I love that you kept us posted until the end!
Will we hear the story of your parents efforts in house selling and buying? I hope so!
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What a relief! I'm glad to see a resolution that looks like it wasn't too awful, other than the hassle and delay.
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Hurray that he is out.
If he doesn't return the garage key, then I think someone needs to change that lock. You parents need to hand over all the keys and it would be bad to the buyer to tell them that the tennant still has a key and therefore theynshould change the lock.
The bed is just garbage and the easiest is probably that you or sis get rid of it.
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Hurray that he is out.
If he doesn't return the garage key, then I think someone needs to change that lock. You parents need to hand over all the keys and it would be bad to the buyer to tell them that the tennant still has a key and therefore theynshould change the lock.
The bed is just garbage and the easiest is probably that you or sis get rid of it.
Oh yeah, mom's going to call a locksmith. And the garage is easy, it's the automatic opener and you can reprogram them.
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So glad this is finally resolved. And I love that you kept us posted until the end!
Will we hear the story of your parents efforts in house selling and buying? I hope so!
@Ladychips just for you :) Mom was at my house this weekend. A house came on the market that is on the same street as me but 2 blocks south. We went and looked at it yesterday and they're putting an offer in. Wish them luck. But honestly, I'll probably vent elsewhere about how much my mom is driving me batty!
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CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!
Now as soon as the house closes, this will all be just a terrible, terrible memory
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So glad this is finally resolved. And I love that you kept us posted until the end!
Will we hear the story of your parents efforts in house selling and buying? I hope so!
@Ladychips just for you :) Mom was at my house this weekend. A house came on the market that is on the same street as me but 2 blocks south. We went and looked at it yesterday and they're putting an offer in. Wish them luck. But honestly, I'll probably vent elsewhere about how much my mom is driving me batty!
+1. I love my mom but she drives me batty too. I have alot of guilt about it because most of my friends no longer have their mother. But guilt only takes me so far.
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Wow, what great timing on the house on your street! Now you can tell yourselves that the recalcitrant tenant was a providential move to delay your parents' sale until this house came on the market. ;-)
Happy for you, internet stranger!
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Wow, what great timing on the house on your street! Now you can tell yourselves that the recalcitrant tenant was a providential move to delay your parents' sale until this house came on the market. ;-)
Happy for you, internet stranger!
@AMandM - That’s a terrific way of looking at it! Fingers crossed it works out that way for Sibley and family.
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So glad this is finally resolved. And I love that you kept us posted until the end!
Will we hear the story of your parents efforts in house selling and buying? I hope so!
@Ladychips just for you :) Mom was at my house this weekend. A house came on the market that is on the same street as me but 2 blocks south. We went and looked at it yesterday and they're putting an offer in. Wish them luck. But honestly, I'll probably vent elsewhere about how much my mom is driving me batty!
+1. I love my mom but she drives me batty too. I have alot of guilt about it because most of my friends no longer have their mother. But guilt only takes me so far.
Mothers who come to visit you (as well as other guests in general) are like fish. After 3 days they begin to stink and should be out of your house.
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LOL dad got a response from ex-tenant: "Contact my lawyer and do not contact me again."
This does beg the question...how can he afford a lawyer if he couldn't pay rent?
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LOL dad got a response from ex-tenant: "Contact my lawyer and do not contact me again."
This does beg the question...how can he afford a lawyer if he couldn't pay rent?
Answer: He's delusional.
And yay, @Sibley and family! Hopefully all goes well with finding the right new house near you (but not on top of you)
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Man this was cliff hanger of thread, every landlord's nightmare.
I'm glad it worked out for you, but I had my doubts, with Covid it would.
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To put the final bow on this, closing was today. The house has officially been sold and the checks deposited at the bank. Possession transfers on Sunday, which is when I'm loading my car with the rest of their stuff and driving them back to my house.
Tenant left behind a mattress & springs, bedframe, outdoor chair on the porch, and dirt. Mom thinks he stopped cleaning last fall/winter at some point. Kitchen and bathroom got a good scrubbing, the carpet got steam cleaned, and all is well there. The mattress and springs went out in the trash last week. I will be there this weekend and between me, dad, and a friend of mine (muscle!), the rest will be going out in the trash with a "free" post on nextdoor.
The next stressor will be parents buying a place in my area and getting moved in. The real estate market is nuts, so this will be difficult. They did not get the house they put an offer on last weekend.
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Yay for closure!
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Congratulations!!! Yes, there's always more to do in a transition, but the worst is almost certainly behind you.
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Such a happy ending!!
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To put the final bow on this, closing was today. The house has officially been sold and the checks deposited at the bank. Possession transfers on Sunday, which is when I'm loading my car with the rest of their stuff and driving them back to my house.
Tenant left behind a mattress & springs, bedframe, outdoor chair on the porch, and dirt. Mom thinks he stopped cleaning last fall/winter at some point. Kitchen and bathroom got a good scrubbing, the carpet got steam cleaned, and all is well there. The mattress and springs went out in the trash last week. I will be there this weekend and between me, dad, and a friend of mine (muscle!), the rest will be going out in the trash with a "free" post on nextdoor.
The next stressor will be parents buying a place in my area and getting moved in. The real estate market is nuts, so this will be difficult. They did not get the house they put an offer on last weekend.
Congrats on the good result.
If your parents don't buy another house any time soon, maybe they can rent an airbnb for themselves, instead of staying in your house. Prices per month on airbnb can be reasonable.
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So glad he moved out!!
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