Author Topic: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?  (Read 2216 times)

406MtnFire

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Curious what others think of the validity of this opinion. Much of the world has went through similar economic trends over the past couple of years. Including high inflation and low interest rates. I've been watching the new zealand housing market news (real high level) since they started raising their federal interest rates a few months before USA. It seems like they're starting to see a decline in housing values with a decline in affordability (not that shocking). Curious if anyone else thinks there could be similar macro trends to comparing cause & effect of raising rates (lowering affordability) between NZ and USA?

MrGreen

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2022, 10:20:04 AM »
I have not followed the NZ housing market but the US is experiencing a broad decline in home prices right now on the back of rising interest rates a decreasing affordability as a result. The price drop is not severe yet but some markets have already seen a decline greater than 10%. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next couple years if rates stay higher. I already see a significant drop in listings on the MLS and the majority of what is listed are new homes.

Wintergreen78

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2022, 01:55:10 PM »
LA County has a bigger population and economy than the country of New Zealand. So, I’d be cautious about extrapolating anything happening there to the entire US.

It wouldn’t be shocking if we see a similar pattern in the US, but I wouldn’t base any important decisions on what is happening in New Zealand. Here’s a few questions that pop into my head:

How are the laws and tax benefits related to housing different between the two countries?
How much impact does international investment have on the housing market there?
How does the overall economy compare to the US?
How did affordability change in New Zealand compared to the US (I was under the impression prices ran up much further there, compared to the US)?
What does population growth and immigration look like in New Zealand?

FINate

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2022, 02:28:48 PM »
Real estate markets are local.

NZ is an island nation. I'm not familiar with the housing market there, but my guess is they have less than 10 distinct housing markets. Whereas the US is massive and easily has more than 100 distinct housing markets.

How exactly macroeconomic factors play out depends on local factors. High interest rates and a tech slump have hit San Francisco harder than other areas. Whereas places that didn't have a huge run up in prices during the pandemic, like Chicago and other Midwestern cities, are less impacted.

Boise is/was widely expected to crash hard since it was considered the most overvalued RE market in the US, yet that hasn't happened, at least not yet. Prices have declined just under 5% YoY, but it's still technically a seller's market with more buyers than sellers and less than 3 months of inventory. Very few people are underwater (prices are still up over 40% over the past several years), and many who bought during the pandemic did so with cash. So few owners are forced to sell and many are just waiting things out on the sidelines, hence inventory is way down. But I have no idea what's going to happen in the future, this stuff is incredibly difficult to predict.

Dicey

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2022, 02:48:43 PM »
But I have no idea what's going to happen in the future, this stuff is incredibly difficult to predict.
Amen to that!

clarkfan1979

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2023, 04:17:59 AM »
Real estate markets are local.

NZ is an island nation. I'm not familiar with the housing market there, but my guess is they have less than 10 distinct housing markets. Whereas the US is massive and easily has more than 100 distinct housing markets.

How exactly macroeconomic factors play out depends on local factors. High interest rates and a tech slump have hit San Francisco harder than other areas. Whereas places that didn't have a huge run up in prices during the pandemic, like Chicago and other Midwestern cities, are less impacted.

Boise is/was widely expected to crash hard since it was considered the most overvalued RE market in the US, yet that hasn't happened, at least not yet. Prices have declined just under 5% YoY, but it's still technically a seller's market with more buyers than sellers and less than 3 months of inventory. Very few people are underwater (prices are still up over 40% over the past several years), and many who bought during the pandemic did so with cash. So few owners are forced to sell and many are just waiting things out on the sidelines, hence inventory is way down. But I have no idea what's going to happen in the future, this stuff is incredibly difficult to predict.

very good analysis of Boise.

waltworks

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2023, 08:52:33 PM »
Boise is down 5% YOY but that's comparing today's prices to January 2022, well before the actual peak. From the peak (probably May/June) I bet Boise is down at least 10% if not more. And that's sales that have closed - ie, contracts signed a couple of months ago.

Boise (or SLC, or Denver, or anywhere else) isn't *that* special. Interest rates and household formation rates (which skyrocketed during the pandemic) will ensure that things will grind down for quite a while. It probably won't be *fast* like 2008/9 (unless we get a recession), but down it'll go.

-W

FINate

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2023, 01:13:43 AM »
Boise is down 5% YOY but that's comparing today's prices to January 2022, well before the actual peak. From the peak (probably May/June) I bet Boise is down at least 10% if not more. And that's sales that have closed - ie, contracts signed a couple of months ago.

Boise (or SLC, or Denver, or anywhere else) isn't *that* special. Interest rates and household formation rates (which skyrocketed during the pandemic) will ensure that things will grind down for quite a while. It probably won't be *fast* like 2008/9 (unless we get a recession), but down it'll go.

-W

Yep, prices will probably decline further, and that's a good thing. My house is a place to live, not an investment, so I don't personally care, but improved affordability would be healthy for society. The point was trying to make about Boise (and doing a poor job of it apparently) is that a big crash was predicted. Some reports claimed Boise was the most overvalued market in the US, with some estimates putting it at 70% overvalued. And yet, so far, San Francisco and a few other coastal markets have seen steeper declines, which was unexpected. Of course, things could change in the year(s) ahead, but I just think this stuff is very difficult to predict and even the experts are often wrong.

MrGreen

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2023, 09:18:39 AM »
Boise is down 5% YOY but that's comparing today's prices to January 2022, well before the actual peak. From the peak (probably May/June) I bet Boise is down at least 10% if not more. And that's sales that have closed - ie, contracts signed a couple of months ago.

Boise (or SLC, or Denver, or anywhere else) isn't *that* special. Interest rates and household formation rates (which skyrocketed during the pandemic) will ensure that things will grind down for quite a while. It probably won't be *fast* like 2008/9 (unless we get a recession), but down it'll go.

-W

Yep, prices will probably decline further, and that's a good thing. My house is a place to live, not an investment, so I don't personally care, but improved affordability would be healthy for society. The point was trying to make about Boise (and doing a poor job of it apparently) is that a big crash was predicted. Some reports claimed Boise was the most overvalued market in the US, with some estimates putting it at 70% overvalued. And yet, so far, San Francisco and a few other coastal markets have seen steeper declines, which was unexpected. Of course, things could change in the year(s) ahead, but I just think this stuff is very difficult to predict and even the experts are often wrong.
It's hard for things to crash hard when the market is locking up. With significantly fewer listings and buyers being more selective because of higher mortgage costs, sales volume is way down. That tends to draw out the price reductions that inevitably happen. Plus we have a lot of owners or recent purchasers still hanging on to the hope that this is temporary. Maybe they'll be right but if mortgage rates are still 6% 3 years from now I think we'll see healthy downward movement.

Paper Chaser

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2023, 02:25:08 PM »
Boise is down 5% YOY but that's comparing today's prices to January 2022, well before the actual peak. From the peak (probably May/June) I bet Boise is down at least 10% if not more. And that's sales that have closed - ie, contracts signed a couple of months ago.

Boise (or SLC, or Denver, or anywhere else) isn't *that* special. Interest rates and household formation rates (which skyrocketed during the pandemic) will ensure that things will grind down for quite a while. It probably won't be *fast* like 2008/9 (unless we get a recession), but down it'll go.

-W

Yep, prices will probably decline further, and that's a good thing. My house is a place to live, not an investment, so I don't personally care, but improved affordability would be healthy for society. The point was trying to make about Boise (and doing a poor job of it apparently) is that a big crash was predicted. Some reports claimed Boise was the most overvalued market in the US, with some estimates putting it at 70% overvalued. And yet, so far, San Francisco and a few other coastal markets have seen steeper declines, which was unexpected. Of course, things could change in the year(s) ahead, but I just think this stuff is very difficult to predict and even the experts are often wrong.
It's hard for things to crash hard when the market is locking up. With significantly fewer listings and buyers being more selective because of higher mortgage costs, sales volume is way down. That tends to draw out the price reductions that inevitably happen. Plus we have a lot of owners or recent purchasers still hanging on to the hope that this is temporary. Maybe they'll be right but if mortgage rates are still 6% 3 years from now I think we'll see healthy downward movement.

Sales volume is down ~40% across the board since 2020. But inventory is a bit different. Inventory of existing construction (homeowners with low mortgage rates) has risen from the bottom in early 2022 but remains fairly low by historical standards. But new construction supply is now well above historical averages (with more coming online as current projects complete). And those new home builders don't care about keeping a low interest mortgage as much as they care about selling their empty house. That's probably going to lead to price drops on new construction which should drop comps for the entire market.

This video is a bit click-baity with it's imagery and title, but the info seems to be sourced from reliable sources and the logic seems pretty reasonable to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEpzRHsWO-c

Michael in ABQ

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2023, 03:34:41 PM »
If the US goes into a recession in 2023 and you start seeing job losses, that could definitely be a trigger for housing prices to drop. Anyone who bought near the peak in the last 6-12 months also got a pretty good interest rate. So, unless they have to sell, they're not going too.

As time goes on there will be more transactions due to inevitable life events (moving due to new job, moving due to retirement, health issues, etc.) and more of those people will accept the reality that if they do want to sell in a reasonable time frame, they're going to have to lower prices since a buyer can't afford the same price they could a year ago when interest rates were a few percent lower.

There are only three listings in my immediate suburban neighborhood of a few hundred homes. 2 of the 3 dropped their prices by $10k (mid 300s to mid 400s price range) after being on the market for a month or so. Looking to some newer neighborhoods nearby in the $500k+/- range I'm seeing some price drops of $20-30k in the last month.

FINate

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2023, 07:52:14 PM »
Boise is down 5% YOY but that's comparing today's prices to January 2022, well before the actual peak. From the peak (probably May/June) I bet Boise is down at least 10% if not more. And that's sales that have closed - ie, contracts signed a couple of months ago.

Boise (or SLC, or Denver, or anywhere else) isn't *that* special. Interest rates and household formation rates (which skyrocketed during the pandemic) will ensure that things will grind down for quite a while. It probably won't be *fast* like 2008/9 (unless we get a recession), but down it'll go.

-W

Yep, prices will probably decline further, and that's a good thing. My house is a place to live, not an investment, so I don't personally care, but improved affordability would be healthy for society. The point was trying to make about Boise (and doing a poor job of it apparently) is that a big crash was predicted. Some reports claimed Boise was the most overvalued market in the US, with some estimates putting it at 70% overvalued. And yet, so far, San Francisco and a few other coastal markets have seen steeper declines, which was unexpected. Of course, things could change in the year(s) ahead, but I just think this stuff is very difficult to predict and even the experts are often wrong.
It's hard for things to crash hard when the market is locking up. With significantly fewer listings and buyers being more selective because of higher mortgage costs, sales volume is way down. That tends to draw out the price reductions that inevitably happen. Plus we have a lot of owners or recent purchasers still hanging on to the hope that this is temporary. Maybe they'll be right but if mortgage rates are still 6% 3 years from now I think we'll see healthy downward movement.

Agree, things will likely decline further due to interest rates. But local factors still matter.

Is Boise immune to a decline? No. But the popular narrative that it's primarily a pandemic boom town is overdone. The influx of people predated the pandemic, and the housing market was exceptionally tight for years prior, and this is not the result of no-growth policies. We bought our current home before the pandemic. It was on the market for less than three days, our offer was one of eight and it wasn't even the highest offer.

What I'm seeing on the ground here, and what I'm hearing from contacts in the RE industry (realtors and builders): Inventory remains tight. SFH construction has slowed in the outer suburbs, builders learned from 2008-2009 and pulled back well in advance. It's slim pickin's in inner ring neighborhoods --  North End, Warm Springs, Depot Bench, West End -- with very little for sale. Homes in these areas that are priced well continue to sell quickly by historic norms. There's more inventory in the outer suburbs, and properties sit longer and are more likely to drop prices. Properties that are overpriced and/or have problems (awkward layouts, on busy roads, etc.) are not selling well, whereas a year ago people didn't care. Interesting note: multi-family housing in the downtown core, so far, is largely unaffected. There's just so much demand for housing, especially close in, that existing projects are still underway and new projects are being proposed.

waltworks

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2023, 08:35:56 PM »
Yes, but you can repeat that basic story for every town and city in the entire west and just substitute "Bozeman" or "Durango" or anywhere else for Boise.

Again, Boise isn't that special. It's a nice place, just like many other nice places. But prices went up by 70% or whatever because of interest rates and pandemic FOMO, not fundamentals or anything particularly special about Boise itself. With all those factors now gone, the air will keep coming out.

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FINate

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2023, 09:06:55 PM »
Yes, but you can repeat that basic story for every town and city in the entire west and just substitute "Bozeman" or "Durango" or anywhere else for Boise.

Again, Boise isn't that special. It's a nice place, just like many other nice places. But prices went up by 70% or whatever because of interest rates and pandemic FOMO, not fundamentals or anything particularly special about Boise itself. With all those factors now gone, the air will keep coming out.

-W

You very well may be right, and that's fine with me. We like it here, not planning on moving anytime soon so the market is mostly irrelevant to us.

Not sure Bozeman or Durango are good analogs for Boise. The Bozeman metro area population is around 120k, and Durango is around 55k. The Boise metro / Treasure Valley population is around 800k, and it's the regional hub for most of southern Idaho and eastern Oregon. Salt Lake City is probably a better comparison.

waltworks

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2023, 09:27:49 PM »
Yes, feel free to insert SLC as your Boise substitute.

My point is that EVERY place exploded in value simultaneously. That points to a systemic cause, not anything local to any particular town.

-W

FINate

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2023, 10:11:39 PM »
My point is that EVERY place exploded in value simultaneously. That points to a systemic cause, not anything local to any particular town.

Valid point. However we've already established that the value explosion wasn't uniform. Ultra low borrowing rates are clearly a large contributing factor, yet this alone doesn't explain uneven price appreciation. If there were signs of a speculative frenzy in Boise, like in 2008-2009, then I would be more worried about a severe crash in prices. Yet that's not what I witnessed. Sure, people did stupid things like waving inspections, but this was because there's a massive supply-demand imbalance and folks were desperate for housing. There's a fundamental basis for part of the increase, how much I guess is the crux of this discussion. The housing imbalance hasn't improved and may get worse as home builders retreat.

That said, I still say how this plays out is nearly impossible to predict. Black swans and all that... I certainly didn't think housing prices would explode going into the pandemic. It's possible that the Fed triggers a larger than expected recession that tanks tech, which in turn crashes RE markets in the Bay Area/LA/Seattle, which then cuts off the flow of capital from the west coast to intermountain west cities like Boise and SLC. But it's also possible that a faltering tech industry crashes RE prices on the coast, wrecking city budgets, while making these areas less attractive to workers who are increasingly motivated to find greener pastures.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2023, 10:13:44 PM by FINate »

Paper Chaser

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2023, 04:32:12 AM »
Case/Shiller indicates that Western cities and tech hubs are already seeing the brunt of the slowdown in the housing market:

waltworks

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2023, 07:05:17 AM »
The only thing slowing it down is the low inventory/owners with low rates. But that just draws things out more - many people will still have to sell at some point as @Michael in ABQ points out. And when they want to *sell* their house (rather than just list it) they'll have to price accordingly.

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YttriumNitrate

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2023, 07:28:01 AM »
In New Zealand, "more than 80% of current owner-occupier fixed-term mortgages are due to be re-fixed in less than two years" [1]. In contrast, roughly nine out of ten mortgages in the US for the past decade have been fixed rate.[2]. As a result, I would expect US home prices to be far stickier as people decide to just stay in place rather than move (when possible).

406MtnFire

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Re: NZ housing market as a future guide of American housing market?
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2023, 07:28:25 PM »
Thanks for all the perspectives. Some local experience from outside Bozeman - the market has slowed down quite a bit but I wouldn't say stopped.  There is still some movement, but houses are generally sitting for a few weeks. Mainly new construction homes coming on the market. Prices seem to have come down 5-10% already from the highs earlier this year. Probably 10-15% in Bozeman from the highs. I recall this early 2022 there were 30-50 home for sale at a time in my area (including under contract). Now there are ~250.