Author Topic: My personal RE FIRE plans! (updated 7/22/23)  (Read 4154 times)

PMJL34

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My personal RE FIRE plans! (updated 7/22/23)
« on: August 18, 2022, 01:23:32 PM »
Updated on 7/22/2023:

Ages: 35 36 (self) MFJ + 2 kids (12 + 9 13 +10). Location: Bay area, CA.

My primary residence is a SFH (where we live) and a detached 4plex in the back of the lot.
All in (PITI +utilities) is $4.8k/m
Too confusing for readers. Let's just say I own a 6 unit apartment and I live in one of the 6 apartments. All in PITI+Utilities for the 6unit apt is 4.8K.
Rent received from the 5 other apartments: extremely below market @ $5.1k 7.1k (3 of the tenants are inherited and paying severely below market. eviction memorandum ending next month! but won't be pursuing any evictions as everyone is up to date with payment). My unit would rent for 4.5k or so. I will also be adding one more ADU this year which will rent for $2k finished and rented!
Condition/deferred maintenance: Tons. Will be starting an addition + gut job of my apartment. I estimate about 1 year of work + 60K.
Purchase: 2021 for 1m.
Balance: 750k 740k. APR 2.75%.
Current value: who knows 1.3-1.4m?

I also have a duplex in the same city.
all in (PITI + utilities) = 4k.
Rent: $7.3k. Below market due to section 8 (personal choice).
Condition/deferred maintenance: Great/none.
Purchase: 2014 600k
Balance: 650k 640k due to 250k cashout refi to buy primary in 2021. APR also 2.75%
Current value: who knows 1.2-1.3m?

Stocks: 400k 465k as of today. Mostly deferred, but can access at anytime due to gov't 457 rules.
Cash: 30k
Student loans: 70k. $0! Forgiven!
W-2: 100k
Pension @ 50 = 1.2k? and SS @ 62 = 1k?

My current spend:
Groceries: $500 $650
Restaurants: $350
Car/Gas/insurance/taxes: $300
cell phones/insurances (term life, umbrella, etc), hospital co-pays, glasses etc.: 300 $400
Everything/shopping else: $350
Vacations 5-10k/year just depends. heavy travel rewards/hacking involved. 12k this year

I consider myself to be FI at this time as my rents exceed yearly spend by about 1k/month 2.5k/month (rents =14.4k/m and 11.9k ish/m spending all in or 172.8k/y rental income and 142.8k/y spend all in = 30k/y surplus/buffer for vacancy, repairs, overbudget items etc.).

I plan/want to pull the plug when I have saved up 750K 500K stache + 50K cash and when my rents are 14k (done!). Hopefully late 2023/early 2024. Aiming for early 2024. I live a simple, but active life and don't care about anything fancy. Got plenty of house work to keep me busy for a while (I do everything myself). I have zero intention of moving as both sides of the families are local, but travel a lot and plan to be living out of the country several months out of the year. I expect my expenses to mostly remain the same (ACA healthcare projected to be minimal + less auto expenses).

Please poke holes, paths to improvements, any blindsides, or tell me I will be okay lol. Truly appreciate the feedback.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 11:41:40 AM by PMJL34 »

Archipelago

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2022, 01:56:47 PM »
This is one of those rare occurrences where you made RE investing work in VHCOL using non-institutional money. Props to you!

Are all the tenants in the 4-plex paying their rent?

How'd you source the properties? SFH + 4-5 units out back are pretty hard to come by these days.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2022, 02:06:25 PM »
I have a few questions/comments:

--You have $400k in stocks now, and expect that to be $750k in 12-18 months?  That seems....optimistic.
--Your expenses in retirement look to be $40kish, which, if all your assets were in index funds, would require $1MM invested.  If you sold the duplex, you'd have enough to retire on even without the 4-plex.
--Where is the money for the new ADU coming from?  Is the expected ROI better than the alternatives?
--How will the renovations on the 4-plex impact their cashflow?  You've accounted for PITI, but not maintenance/repair costs associated with the rentals.
--I'm impressed you're doing as well as you are, given the general hostility towards landlords in your area.

waltworks

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2022, 02:29:48 PM »
50% rule says you're losing money on the duplex. 4plex is hard to analyze since it's tied to your home property.

To be fair, I think the 50% rule is way too conservative. But your expenses are certainly a lot higher than just PITI even if you didn't have to fix anything this year. The IRS lets you depreciate a rental on a 30 year schedule for a reason...

You're super RE heavy in an earthquake zone at a RE market peak, which would keep me up at night, but you do you.

-W

PMJL34

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2022, 03:53:54 PM »
Thank you Archipelago for the kind words. I didn't even own a hammer until I bought the duplex in 2014 (by accident too). Never even knew at the time of purchase I could build wealth. All I was thinking about was getting into a better neighborhood/school district. It's a lot of luck involved. Yes, thankfully all tenants are paying at the moment, but they are as marginal as it gets and who knows if they will pay next month. 3 are inherited tenants and they are paying about 50% of market. The newest tenant is the ADU I just completed in May and is a dream tenant. I feel bad she has to put up with the other 3 lol. And thank you for noticing my set up. It took basically 3.5 years to find a SFH (both from MLS) with detached units in my area. 98% are connected multiplex and/or just a small 1bed/ADU in the backyard.

Zolotiyeruki,

1. Yes, I am being very optimistic. I plan to put 50k more into index this year, 100K into index next year, so definitely not a guarantee.
2. I appreciate your lens on simplifying my situation. We definitely go back and forth on selling the duplex. Especially since we have 1 more year to sell before getting hit with taxes. This would simplify my life and reduce my risk as well. However, there's also a big part of me that never wants to sell. I don't want to be a homer, but it's such a nice duplex now that I fixed it up (in a great location) and the cashflow is really great for us.
3. I completed the first ADU for roughly 13k. This is strictly material only. I did 100% of the work (minus quartz slab install). Went fairly high end as well, but lots of used material I hustled for (tons of leg work). Full kitchen with d/w and even washer/dryer in unit. Maybe I'll share some pics one day. The next ADU will hopefully be similar costs.
4. If one of the tenants die (doubt they will move out). My cashflow will immediately double for that unit. Not getting my hopes up at this time though. I'd estimate gut renovation for each unit, but that will only be 10k at most.   
5. Thank you for the compliment. Yes, I treat my tenants as kindly as possible. I have kids and live on site. It helps that they dress better than me and drive nicer cars than me lol.

Walt,

50% is geared towards low end/cheaper homes. In VHCOL areas, you need to throw out that rule. This home has 2 year and 5 year old roofs (in bay area they last 30+ years). 2 year old kitchens, bathrooms, complete pex plumbing, tankless water heaters, new gas lines, etc. Paint is all 2 years old and siding is hardiboard for back unit and 100+ year old old growth redwood in the front unit that isn't going anywhere. Tiny outdoor space which is concrete or artificial turf so no maintenance. It's a cash cow imo and if not for the 1/4mil cashout refi, the numbers were even better.

The way I value this property is that I have roughly 550K equity. with 4% rule that's a tad bit over 20k/year. But I am getting close to 40k/year in net income plus it's very tax friendly.

I agree I have no way of analyzing my primary because it's all intertwined, but it's where we live and it is what it is.

The biggest elephant in the room is the earthquake zone. It's not just zone, I am on the fault line. One big one could potentially wipe me out clean. I don't have an answer to this and don't even pay for earthquake insurance (very few do for a variety of reasons). I figure that's where my stache and insurance will come in handy to re-build. Or maybe I just cry and go back to work. who knows. I honestly don't have an answer to this short of selling. And no I don't think earthquake insurance is the answer either.     

I really really appreciate the feedback. My questions for you all is would you feel comfortable pulling the plug with these numbers?


« Last Edit: August 18, 2022, 03:58:43 PM by PMJL34 »

joemandadman189

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2022, 04:10:45 PM »
No, Thats a lot of expenses and a lot tied to rent coming in, i would want a bigger cash cushion to cover expenses and improvements, and more in investments

And like @waltworks said thats a lot of RE to have in an earthquake zone

affordablehousing

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2022, 04:11:30 PM »
I think you are absolutely on the right track. It sounds like you paired skills, risk tolerance, lifestyle and asset class well together, and are willing to do an incredible amount of work to keep a small wake. The only thing I can think that would be better is to buy some junked RV's and park them at your property and rent them out, rather than go to the trouble of building an ADU.

You sounds like a fellow dumpster diver and re-user and it sounds to me like you are ready to relax a bit. In our market, so few people know how to swing a hammer that I'm sure you could make an easy $100 an hour as a handyperson whenever the fancy struck just by posting a couple pictures on Nextdoor or passing word to neighbors.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2022, 04:12:13 PM »
2. I appreciate your lens on simplifying my situation. We definitely go back and forth on selling the duplex. Especially since we have 1 more year to sell before getting hit with taxes. This would simplify my life and reduce my risk as well. However, there's also a big part of me that never wants to sell. I don't want to be a homer, but it's such a nice duplex now that I fixed it up (in a great location) and the cashflow is really great for us.
...
4. If one of the tenants die (doubt they will move out). My cashflow will immediately double for that unit. Not getting my hopes up at this time though. I'd estimate gut renovation for each unit, but that will only be 10k at most.   
...

The biggest elephant in the room is the earthquake zone. It's not just zone, I am on the fault line. One big one could potentially wipe me out clean. I don't have an answer to this and don't even pay for earthquake insurance (very few do for a variety of reasons). I figure that's where my stache and insurance will come in handy to re-build. Or maybe I just cry and go back to work. who knows. I honestly don't have an answer to this short of selling. And no I don't think earthquake insurance is the answer either.     

I really really appreciate the feedback. My questions for you all is would you feel comfortable pulling the plug with these numbers?
2) This is a business.  If you want to hold on to the property, you either need to justify it financially, or accept that it may be costing you thousands of dollars per year in opportunity cost.
4) Are you assuming that you'll never do renovations unless/until a current tenant moves out?

About earthquakes:  You don't have earthquake insurance, but in the next breath you mention insurance coming in handy for rebuilding.  Which is it?

WRT "would you pull the plug?", run the numbers.  You have roughly $40k/year in spending (and teenagers get expensive!).  The duplex gets you nearly that much all by itself, although you'll need to account for maintenance, vacancy, damage, etc.  Your SFH+4-plex basically covers your housing cost, but that cashflow doesn't seem like it would be enough to fund the renovations it needs.

On top of that, you've got $400k in investments, which could spin off $16k of income.  Social Security is far enough off that it's not much of a factor.

So yeah, you probably have enough to retire, assuming you keep 100% occupancy.  Put it off for another year and a half, and you'll definitely have enough.  Turn over a tenant or two, and the increase in rent will *really* boost your finances.

Dicey

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2022, 01:04:18 AM »
Oh, this is going to be good. I'm in!

PMJL34

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2022, 09:35:50 AM »
Joe189man, I agree that I am relying on rent way too much. Keep in mind, I will have 3K in rents excess each month after all of my own spending (not just housing costs) granted with 100% vacancy. I also agree that 750k isn't much these days especially when I'll still be in my late 30s. What number would make you sleep better at night? My hope is that I wouldn't have to touch this stache and that it will continue to grow (again best case scenario). Ditto to earthquake zone. Again no answer for that.

Affordablehousing, thank you and yes, it has been a TON of work for sure thus far. Believe it or not, my properties are higher end rentals. I would be open to airstream RV all fixed up, but I don't have the space. We're still talking sub 7000 sqft lot. The newest adu will be behind the 4plex, 4 feet from the rear property line. About 350sq ft of living space (but super private + yard space).  I agree I could make money with my skills and have been asked to do stuff already, but just don't have the time. What I've been offered and will most likely do in the future is go 50/50 on a house. I would bring 0 dollars, but basically do the entire flip. Something like that if I get bored.

Zolotiyeruki, 2. Agreed. I tell others the same thing, but it's admittedly easier said than done.
4. I will fix the bare minimum when things break, fix clogs, etc. but no improvements at all. Sucks, but can't justify improving a unit with the current tenants in there. Costs will either be basically my time (few bucks max).

My bad for the confusion regarding insurance. So I keep reading that stick built homes on flat lands tend to do well with earthquakes. I have braced my foundations and put up plywood sheathing on the inside of my crawlspace to strengthen the structure. I also found out that after major earthquakes, majority of homes are still standing, but they actually catch fire due to gas lines. That is why I completely re-did my gas lines at the duplex and installed a bunch of safety features. Also, standard insurance will (so they say) cover fires after an earthquake.  All that to say, I meant my regular home insurance (which has rent protection and re-build costs) to help me in case of a nightmare scenario. Also, earthquake insurance is extremely costly here and has 25% deductible of your home/insurance value. In addition, many reports indicate that if there was a big one, the earthquake insurance wouldn't be able to pay out. Hence many, myself included, are taking the risk to go without it.

I appreciate the vote of confidence as well and will continue to build the stache. I really don't want to OMY so I will try to pull the trigger when I feel *reasonably* safe to do so.

Welcome Dicey!

For those curious I have attached a few pictures, cause who doesn't like pictures.. this is the adu I just completed.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 11:41:34 AM by PMJL34 »

affordablehousing

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2022, 09:54:43 AM »
OH I totally believe they are higher end homes. I just have a few neighbors on my block that happen to have larger 8000SF lots and despite the homes being a couple million dollars, they bring 30 year old RV's or trailers onto the back of the lot that they get for a few thousand dollars, rent them out for 1350 a month with an extension cord strung out to them and access to a bathroom, and then sell them or junk them when they get too old.

joemandadman189

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2022, 11:59:16 AM »
Joe189man, I agree that I am relying on rent way too much. Keep in mind, I will have 3K in rents excess each month after all of my own spending (not just housing costs) granted with 100% vacancy. I also agree that 750k isn't much these days especially when I'll still be in my late 30s. What number would make you sleep better at night? My hope is that I wouldn't have to touch this stache and that it will continue to grow (again best case scenario). Ditto to earthquake zone. Again no answer for that.

You have ~$9k a month in just rental payments for mortgage and utilities i would want 6-9+ months of cash reserves in case of issues so $50-80k maybe more. You have a lot of renters and a lot of potential problems can pop up.

i didnt see any savings related to repairs/upgrades to units? what would that look like? you have 6 units now and want to ad a 7th. you say the duplex is updated. at $1500 a month that would save $18,000 a year for repairs/emergencies. That cuts your cash flow to 1500 a month. have you projected rent increases into your numbers?

as for how much to have in investments, i think you have to balance what you can safely take from the rentals as cash flow and compare that to the difference in need for living expenses.

so say you live on $40k a year and 18k can come from rentals then you need 22k from somewhere else be it a side job or investments.

After reviewing the numbers and where you say you want to be at $14k rents and $750k investments you should be ok, I would want a big cash reserve for issues, non-paying tenants and planned repairs though, probably $100k .

So i retract my No and say Yes with the cash reserve caveat



Dee18

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2022, 12:16:23 PM »
I think you should sell a property simply to avoid having so much of your assets in the earthquake zone.

ChpBstrd

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2022, 01:30:48 PM »
1) You have tenants paying below-market rents in the 4-plex because it has a lot of deferred maintenance, and you presumably lack the money / inclination to do the maintenance because of rent controls. This is a cycle that might only get worse, as the maintenance needs pile up, issues start compounding, and the place gets slummy. When you eventually fix the 4-plex, or when rent controls are lifted, you will probably need to find some new tenants which will cost you some vacancy. If you DIY things, you could lose more revenue from a 6 month project than it would have cost to have it done by professionals in two months. However, keeping the 4 plex nice enough to generate decent rents will be key in the long run to not being stuck with the worst tenants. Maybe plan your way through this minefield and decide if you need to take our yet another equity loan to rip the band-aid and get it done quickly. Rent hikes could easily justify such a move.

2) Your health and umbrella insurance costs seem low. ACA plan?

3) As others noted, you are earning a higher return than safer, hands-off passive investments can generate, but you're doing so by taking on some very specific risks. In particular, uninsured natural disasters, real estate prices, nightmare tenants, neighborhood risk, and legal risk. I would consider each of these as a specific challenge and work on formal mitigation plans for each. FIRE is not only about cash flow, it's about risk management (a topic MMM tends to wave away as pessimistic whining). If your retirement plan is just waiting for the first misfortune to be thrown off, you're no better off than the people chasing dividend traps. Yet there's also opportunity here; if you can mitigate these risks better than others, you will have earned yourself a quick FIRE.

4) When I add up your equity, it looks like your NW might be in the $1.2-$1.4M range. I would be very tempted to cash everything out and do a standard 4% retirement in a LCOL area at $40k-$50k annual spending. However the path you're on now probably has a higher potential for payout and you mentioned family. It's still something to keep in the back of one's mind, considering the other risks. It would be a particularly tempting option if we entered an environment where housing is expensive and stocks are cheap.

5) I agree that except for selling there's not a good way to reduce your real estate risk and shift it to the stock market (where risk is a lot easier to hedge if you know about options, stops, etc.). However selling might not be a bad idea for the right price. You could put the duplex on the market for a few months at an insane price like $1.5M or $1.6M and treat it like a lotto ticket, at the low cost of having to deal with people's inquiries. If you got out of the duplex with $800k in equity I could point you to some preferred stocks yielding 6%/$48k per year, with no work involved. That might retire you on a cash flow basis WHILE YOU STILL HOLD THE HOUSE + FOURPLEX. However, your dirt-low mortgages are a form of golden handcuffs. I would have a hard time letting them go.

6) As others noted, you need to set aside some serious money for repairs, vacancies, etc.

7) Because the 4 plex is on the same lot as your SFH, and on the same mortgage, it seems like that really complicates things from the perspective of keeping your business and personal finances separate and organized. Am I right to assume you co-mingle everything? If so, that could be tricky when you are planning your taxes, trying to depreciate some items but not others or segregate your home vs. business interest expenses. It also complicates any plans to form a LLC. At your point in RE empire building, you need to have solid financial tracking, unimpeachable taxes, and some kind of corporate liability shield to protect your stocks from tenant lawsuits. Some of the other landlords on this forum may have advice on how to account for the benefits of personally using the SFH.

PMJL34

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2022, 04:12:25 PM »
Affordablehousing,

I would die for a larger lot to do what you mentioned. My lot is fully used as is lol. I don't even think 8000sqft lots exist unless you go to the Berkeley hills in which case they are mostly unusable. But yeah definitely keep the suggestions coming. I know a lot of rental owners irl, but they are all older and have zero interest in fire so can't really bounce these kinds of ideas off with them. They think I'm young and dumb (maybe I am). They are super helpful w city regulations and other intangibles though.

Dee18, I think you are right. I think I will ultimately end up selling the duplex, but not now. Currently, selling would not allow me to fire, but if and when my stocks grow and I get turnover with higher rents at my 4/5plex I can sell and lessen my risks. I hope it happens sooner than later.

Joe189man,

Yup, having such a huge fixed monthly cost for rental/personal housing is my biggest concern. No matter what I need close to 9k every month for the next 29years. And yes, I'm dealing w my share of crappy tenants now so I know rents are not guaranteed. Upping my cash position is def a must. The good news is all of my stocks are accessible so I'm treating my stocks as cash as well in case of an emergency.

I do challenge you on $1500 capex/month. Because I do all the work myself, it's much less. My 4plex + adu (pending) is all under one roof...well will be 2 roofs but the adu roof will be tiny. And the 4plex just got a brand new roof last winter. Should last a long time. The siding will be replaced w hardiboard and I already have that on hand. All new plumbing and brand new 400amp (4*100 panels) electrical installed last year as well (duplex has 200amp installed already with brand new wiring). So it will just be gutting the inside at turnover which I mentioned will be sub 10k at the very worst per unit (2/4 are good to go). No HVAC here in bay area, but I do install mini splits in each unit ($600) and I already have 2 more on hand. All that to say, I believe the capex will be low for a while. This is assuming I am in good health and can do the work for another 20 years or so. After that, I believe my sequence of risk will be nil and money shouldn't be an issue (hopefully).

To clarify, my spending is kinda weird because my personal housing + utilities are all included in the 9k figure, but I spend another 2-2.5k/month for everything else so about 30k yearly outside of housing, not 40k. That's with 2 kids and extravagant vacations (thanks to travel hacks). I also have not incorporated rent increases. I want to work with what I got, not with what I hope for.

As I type this, I know I am being very optimistic and I really appreciate the reality checks. I also appreciate your hesitant and thoughtful approval of my proposed plans!

I don't intend fireing with bare minimum but I def don't want to do the omy or die with too much money (more of a concern for me cause life is too short!).

Thank you all! Lots to think about.

PMJL34

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2022, 04:55:48 PM »
ChpBstrd,

Wow thank you so much for the thoughtful reply. Let me try to address as much as I can.

1. Berkeley is nothing like the rest of America (except SF). I can't ask my tenants to leave when lease is over and I can't raise their rent by more than the city allowed amount per year (0%-2.5% yearly raises per year is the range over the last 20years since it's implementation). Eviction halts have allowed tenants to not pay without any penalty since COVID started and will be in effect through 8/2023 at minimum. It's really really bad. Therefore I am just thankful my tenants are paying, even if it's half the market rate. There's talk that this is one way the state is proposing to fight homelessness. As in, just pay for tenants rent forever since it's cheaper and cleaner than dealing with the cost and consequence of the ever growing homeless population.

The current tenants could careless if anything works. They are a different breed. I will fix safety stuff, but nothing else inside. Outside will be kept up for sure. I project 1 month of diy per unit at less than 10k because they are both simple 1 bedrooms.  So as much as I want to do what you propose it's not in the cards. It sucks.

2. Yes, ACA. A def risk in and of itself.

3. This is absolutely true and very important. My whole point of fireing is to reduce stress and gain freedom/flexibility. So my proposed plan will be potentially selling the duplex as soon as my index funds grow enough that I don't need the additional income (and risk that comes with it). As mentioned, I do hope it happens sooner than later, but I also realize that I can't do sell this very moment without having to work longer. Hence I am willing to take on additional risk for the needed income for now. Maybe I can be swayed that selling now is best. I'm all ears.

4.You're absolutely correct. My family has discussed this in every way possible, but we're too wuss. I am overly tied to this region due to family, schooling, basketball, restaurants, rentals, you name it. I hope to outgrow it, but can't overcome the hurdle at the moment.

5. Another great point and we've done the mental gymnastics over and over. If I could get 1.5-1.6, I would absolutely sell. But...you nailed it. Prop13 + 2.75%apr is definitely golden handcuffs. For context, mortgage for duplex is 2700 and primary+plex is 3150.

6.How about 40-50k in cash? Rest will be in brokerage or retirement acct that is immediately accessible. I don't like holding cash as I'm 35yo. Maybe I need the full 80-100k people have thrown out.

7. I haven't given this enough thought. I do want to put the house/s in an irrevocable trust. I diy taxes and it wasn't too bad last year (well I haven't been audited so shouldn't talk yet).I did 40% primary/60% split according to SQ footage for costs and only deducted rental housing costs, not my own. But yeah, I do need to further think this through for liability purposes. I'm just hopeful umbrella comes to the rescue should I need it. One of my current tenants is disabled and has a nonprofit lawyer yikes! Of course this was not disclosed at the time of the sell but what can you do.

Thoroughly appreciated and will digest it once I have more time.

affordablehousing

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2022, 05:46:07 PM »
There are larger lots here, just few and farther between, and many of them have been converted into townhouses, though I feel like the economics with high construction costs don't merit it yet. Since it sounds like you didn't transfer ownership, prop 19 will take away much of your children's benefit with them and it may be interesting to start thinking about 1031's in a higher yielding market with less rent control issues / easier time buying out below market tenants or, should the problem people pass away, you can transfer it into some annuity like income via a DST.

I have an older friend who started like you. He worked really hard to boot people, and he even ended up having a law passed with his name to try to close the loophole he used to evict people. But as he aged, he realized, he stopped finding it so fun trying to evict people, and he'd been in the game so long his portfolio made just impossible amounts of money.

I think you're on the path, just enjoy it.

clarkfan1979

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2022, 07:05:13 PM »
I think we all know it's not possible to retire with rental real estate if your properties are not hitting the 1% rule. You are obviously losing money and will be broke very soon. Now that we got that out of the way, we can officially get started.

Did you say that you are tired from your current workload? It's a combination of W-2 job and managing/repairs the 4-plex and duplex? You also have kids getting older and you want to spend more time with them?

It seems like your problem is time, not money, which is the foundation of this website and community. Based on your situation, I would try to reduce hours at work before I would sell any real estate.

Your situation is unique because you own expensive high appreciation real estate at a very young age. Your upside on these properties are astronomical. As a result, this factor needs to be given serious consideration. When you sprinkle in the 2.75% mortgage and you have handyman skills, it doesn't make any sense to me to sell any real estate. 

If you are able to reduce hours at work or transition into a slightly different job you might start to like the handyman stuff more because it's going to be less tiring. I plan my real estate projects around my semester breaks when I'm not working at my W-2.

My wife quit her full-time job in 2015 and switched to part-time. She went from 50 hours/week to 15 hours/week and she is now at 10 hours/week. Her income went from 60K/year to 15K/year. It took some time to get used to smaller paychecks, but it was totally worth it.

I agree with the other comments about having more cash reserves if you ever decided to quit your W2. You need more cash than what would be considered "normal" because you have a shit ton of expensive real estate. Congrats to you on your current position. You have alot to be excited about over the next 12-24 months. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2022, 09:09:23 PM »
To be clear, I think you're in an enviable position. For all I wrote, I never did say good job!

PMJL34

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2022, 08:01:56 PM »
ChpBstrd, thank you for the kind words. Once again, I really appreciate your detailed feedback.

Clark, I was curious about your take on my plan so thanks for the input. Regarding work, I have a ton of flexibility and work very few hours, but it's still very stressful. Even if my job was 5 hours a week, I'd quit. I agree that there just isn't enough time to do everything I want, hence I want to FIRE.

You're right that this board views RE in HCOL differently from you and I. If you were to poll 100 people in my area, I'd guess that 99/100 would never even consider selling. They view it as a goldmine and something to be held onto forever. I ultimately want flexibility and less stress....as soon as I can afford to. Until then, I'll deal with the stress/risk for higher potential returns.

I think everyone has mentioned having high cash position, so I'll work on that. Question: do people here not view brokerage account in index funds as liquid cash in case of an emergency?

And now that y'all know my situation and I've received great feedback. I guess my ultimate question is....

Is 14.5k rental income to 11.5k spend with 750k stache at age 38 with family of 4 reasonable?? I haven't found a firecalculator that is able to spit out a percentage for me. I'm okay with 90-95% success rate FWIW. 

joemandadman189

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2022, 08:59:57 AM »
I guess my ultimate question is....

Is 14.5k rental income to 11.5k spend with 750k stache at age 38 with family of 4 reasonable?? I haven't found a firecalculator that is able to spit out a percentage for me. I'm okay with 90-95% success rate FWIW.

If you equate the $3k per month to an equivalent stash at the 4% rule, that's $900k. So $900k+$750k = $1,650,000, maybe use that as your stash in the fire calculators. did you have a annual spend in mind? It was hard to figure out from your first post, but your stashes combined should kick out over $60k per year to live on.

ChpBstrd

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2022, 09:42:19 AM »
I guess my ultimate question is....

Is 14.5k rental income to 11.5k spend with 750k stache at age 38 with family of 4 reasonable?? I haven't found a firecalculator that is able to spit out a percentage for me. I'm okay with 90-95% success rate FWIW.

If you equate the $3k per month to an equivalent stash at the 4% rule, that's $900k. So $900k+$750k = $1,650,000, maybe use that as your stash in the fire calculators. did you have a annual spend in mind? It was hard to figure out from your first post, but your stashes combined should kick out over $60k per year to live on.

Either that or a lot of FIRE calculators have an "other income" field of some sort so people can manually enter their rental income, pensions, alimony, lawsuit payouts, royalties, or annuitized lotto winnings. The hard part will be accurately modeling future revenues from the rentals, accounting for maintenance and guessing future rent levels.

Paper Chaser

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2022, 11:11:09 AM »
I think everyone has mentioned having high cash position, so I'll work on that. Question: do people here not view brokerage account in index funds as liquid cash in case of an emergency?

I think a mix of cash and easily-accessible brokerage money is fine. But the brokerage money should only be earmarked for one thing, either emergency fund/Rental CapEx or retirement income generator. I wouldn't be comfortable counting it as both.

I also think that it's probably easy to comingle personal E-fund with Rental E-fund but I'd prefer compartmentalization there as well. That way you're not dipping into your rental CapEx fund to pay for an unexpected car repair or something personal. And vice versa you wouldn't be depleting your personal E-fund to pay for a remodel on the rental, etc.

PMJL34

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2022, 05:08:21 PM »
Thanks Joe189man and ChpBstrd for the feedback. Every Firecal will spit out 100% success rate simply because my rental income > spending (even with $0 stache). But obviously, we here know it's not that simple. I like the idea of using the 4% rule principle, but maybe being conservative and using 2-3% as rental income is more random in my case. That at least will give me a starting point.

Paper Chaser, makes sense about compartmentalizing. Admittedly, I'd give myself a solid F grade so far on this subject. I've thought about it, but I've never done it because I've always had plenty of money to cover the repairs (while I'm working) and it's just easier to have 1 account.

I think it is what it is at this point, in that real estate FIRE is more ambiguous/random/more difficult to model because it's essentially a business and completely different from index funds. I don't get the privilege of a computerized "success rate" and that's okay. I just have to trust my numbers and execute. I haven't heard anything from anyone that it's a terrible idea (yet) so I will proceed as mentioned and hope for the best. I feel pretty good about my plans and will do my best to remain flexible. Thanks all!       


ChpBstrd

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2022, 07:27:29 PM »
Thanks Joe189man and ChpBstrd for the feedback. Every Firecal will spit out 100% success rate simply because my rental income > spending (even with $0 stache).
...
I think it is what it is at this point, in that real estate FIRE is more ambiguous/random/more difficult to model because it's essentially a business and completely different from index funds. ...   

1) Physical real estate wears out and needs to be replaced periodically (notes how many buildings that existed 100 years ago exist today). At some point in your retirement, your buildings will be uneconomical to rent or repair. It is a wasting asset and you have to set aside funds to replace it. That's a lot different than just assuming today's income will continue forever. Similarly, you need to adjust the value you expect to get out of the worn-out real estate when you sell.

2) Will you be DIY'ing the landlord thing at age 75? If you are disabled or sick? If incarcerated or physically separated from the real estate? Paper assets can support you in such circumstances, but your rental business would fall apart within weeks. In fact, a week-long vacation might be ill-advised during your "retirement". Your FIRE plan needs to include a phase where you close out the landlord business and transition to paper assets.  Then you essentially start FIRE all over again at that point in the future.

3) LOTS of people on this board, including MMM himself, FIRE'd with a hybrid approach of RE + paper assets. This works well because the RE cash flow can support you while the paper assets grow for several years or a decade. Then you are FIRE on the paper assets alone. It's also a faster way to get out of one's job than merely saving up a mil or two. Of course, this raises questions about whether one is truly "retired" or "FIRE" while running a RE business.

clarkfan1979

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2022, 01:19:14 PM »
Thanks Joe189man and ChpBstrd for the feedback. Every Firecal will spit out 100% success rate simply because my rental income > spending (even with $0 stache).
...
I think it is what it is at this point, in that real estate FIRE is more ambiguous/random/more difficult to model because it's essentially a business and completely different from index funds. ...   

1) Physical real estate wears out and needs to be replaced periodically (notes how many buildings that existed 100 years ago exist today). At some point in your retirement, your buildings will be uneconomical to rent or repair. It is a wasting asset and you have to set aside funds to replace it. That's a lot different than just assuming today's income will continue forever. Similarly, you need to adjust the value you expect to get out of the worn-out real estate when you sell.

2) Will you be DIY'ing the landlord thing at age 75? If you are disabled or sick? If incarcerated or physically separated from the real estate? Paper assets can support you in such circumstances, but your rental business would fall apart within weeks. In fact, a week-long vacation might be ill-advised during your "retirement". Your FIRE plan needs to include a phase where you close out the landlord business and transition to paper assets.  Then you essentially start FIRE all over again at that point in the future.


It's true that many small time landlords (4-6 units) will eventually have to sell when they can no longer physically do the work to take care of the properties. I personally believe there is one exception. Some landlords are able to scale into a larger portfolios that can comfortably pay for an employee to do the job.

3) LOTS of people on this board, including MMM himself, FIRE'd with a hybrid approach of RE + paper assets. This works well because the RE cash flow can support you while the paper assets grow for several years or a decade. Then you are FIRE on the paper assets alone. It's also a faster way to get out of one's job than merely saving up a mil or two. Of course, this raises questions about whether one is truly "retired" or "FIRE" while running a RE business.

I agree that someone who is self-managing is not truly retired. However, it can be pretty darn close. Many of my repairs involve less than 1 hour of my time. This involves researching a repair person, scheduling them, paying them and also keeping the tenant in the loop. I paid $900 for the entire house to have new screens installed over the windows. I think the total time spent was around 45 minutes. I like to be physically present on the property every 3-6 months to get ahead of any needed repairs. I typically do not get blindsided with repairs. I know they are coming because I can typically see it.

srad

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2022, 10:57:09 AM »
If PMJL still has these properties when they are 75, I think we can all agree PMLJ won't have to worry about spending 10k for a hired out repair vs doing it themselves for 2k.

Think how much these are going to be worth in 40 years and how much rents will be.  My last 4 duplexes were bought out of estates. The prior owners owned them for decades and they paid less for all of them combined than I did on my last two cars, they were bringing in the cash (relative to what they paid for them).  I don't see any reason why this won't happen for the next generation of landlords.  40 years is a very long time.  Now will PMJL beat the stock market with these over that same time period?  Time will tell.

But as I read through this, I think the biggest risk is if the tenants in the 4plex decide to say for over 10 years.  I read through some of Berkley's landlord rules, ouch.  Those relocation fees are steep, and you have very few options of moving them out.  By only being able to raise the rent a couple % a year, you are never going to get them close to market rates. Think of how much rent you are losing.  You said way under rents, you are losing out on what 4k a month?  That 48k a year, 480k over 10 years.  That's adding up to some real money.  I'd be looking to "move" your kids into the units as soon as they are old enough...


waltworks

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2022, 12:36:58 PM »
RE is definitely a job, and I don't think you can really be 100% FIRE when self-managing even a handful of properties, but having a 5 hour per week job that pays all your expenses and then some is still a pretty good situation.

Now, just owning index funds (or some other paper asset) sufficient that it pays your expenses is even better, of course, because you don't need to do any work at all.

Unless you have a really big/geographically diverse RE portfolio it's also a lot riskier, of course.

I got out of RE because I didn't like the stress and work (especially since I couldn't control the timing of when an appliance would break or whatever - it always seemed to happen when I was out of state on vacation) and because prices went up so much I figured I might as well take the appreciation and buy more index funds. I'd do it again if prices dropped enough to make sense. Maybe. But maybe not. I am really not a huge fan of hunting for properties and finding tenants and such.

-W

PMJL34

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2022, 02:26:04 PM »
I think everyone is in agreement that I won't be 100% "retired" and that's okay for me for now.

ChpBstrd nailed it with....

"LOTS of people on this board, including MMM himself, FIRE'd with a hybrid approach of RE + paper assets. This works well because the RE cash flow can support you while the paper assets grow for several years or a decade. Then you are FIRE on the paper assets alone. It's also a faster way to get out of one's job than merely saving up a mil or two. Of course, this raises questions about whether one is truly "retired" or "FIRE" while running a RE business."

I figure it will take approximately 5-10 years (after I FIRE) for me to reach a point where I am no longer dependent on rentals. At that point, I will most likely choose to go fully into index funds to reduce risk and stress. I figured if I can survive the first 5 or so years of FIRE, then I will be in a great position. and like SRAD said, at that point, I can afford to hire everything out if I choose to since money won't be as big of an issue.

Walt, I think your reality aligns with mine. If I was already fully FIRE like yourself, it would be hard for me to jump back into rentals (even if they were on MEGA sale). I do love houses and even enjoy working on them, but tending to the rentals/tenants is still stressful for me (even if it's only few hours a week). I assume as I get older and richer, it will only get worse lol. 
« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 02:28:15 PM by PMJL34 »

lhamo

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2022, 02:49:03 PM »
Oh, this is going to be good. I'm in!

Me, too!  DS just started grad school in Berkeley and the whole family loved our few days there.  Did some poking around the real estate market and was surprised to find it isn't THAT much more expensive than Seattle.  So will be doing more research.  If DD wants to go to a school in california just the differential between in-state and out of state tuition might be enough to make up for the slightly higher prices.    May be down that way again in a couple of weeks and would LOVE to pick your brain over a beer or coffee.

PMJL34

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2022, 03:23:23 PM »
Welcome lhamo!

I hope DS found a home where he can focus on his studies not too far from campus (and not too expensive!).

Yes, California tech folks aren't the smartest with money. If their budget was 1mil in bay area and they couldn't find what they wanted locally, they typically just spend that full 1mil in Seattle (or PDX or AUS) with no understanding of local real estate. Severely overpaying and boosting local prices in the process. Multiply this by thousands and prices aren't too different these days all over the US!

I have no idea how helpful I'll be, but I'm always happy to meet up and chat! 

clarkfan1979

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2022, 09:53:02 AM »
I think everyone is in agreement that I won't be 100% "retired" and that's okay for me for now.

ChpBstrd nailed it with....

"LOTS of people on this board, including MMM himself, FIRE'd with a hybrid approach of RE + paper assets. This works well because the RE cash flow can support you while the paper assets grow for several years or a decade. Then you are FIRE on the paper assets alone. It's also a faster way to get out of one's job than merely saving up a mil or two. Of course, this raises questions about whether one is truly "retired" or "FIRE" while running a RE business."

I figure it will take approximately 5-10 years (after I FIRE) for me to reach a point where I am no longer dependent on rentals. At that point, I will most likely choose to go fully into index funds to reduce risk and stress. I figured if I can survive the first 5 or so years of FIRE, then I will be in a great position. and like SRAD said, at that point, I can afford to hire everything out if I choose to since money won't be as big of an issue.

Walt, I think your reality aligns with mine. If I was already fully FIRE like yourself, it would be hard for me to jump back into rentals (even if they were on MEGA sale). I do love houses and even enjoy working on them, but tending to the rentals/tenants is still stressful for me (even if it's only few hours a week). I assume as I get older and richer, it will only get worse lol.

I agree with all of this.

As much as I love real estate, I am planning on developing an exit plan from rentals to index funds for when I get older.

I think you are peaking over the fence and things are looking good. You are still juggling a few unknowns, so it's probably not time to jump the fence just yet. You should have a clearer picture in 12-18 months by simply waiting to see how things pan out. At some point the answer will be clear and you won't need any help making the decision. 

lhamo

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2022, 10:00:25 AM »
Curious what you think about this property -- it has gone pending since I first saw it, but seemed low priced for so many units.  I assume it needs a ton of work and I know that area is somewhat sketchy, but still...

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Berkeley/1011-Delaware-St-94710/home/1479167

PMJL34

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2022, 12:01:04 PM »
lhamo,

Nothing sketchy about the area at all imo. Location is actually pretty great (95 walkscore/98 bikescore plus walkable to BART, Marina, 4th St, etc.). I love that the units have separate water meters as water bills can kill cashflow in this area. I also love separate structures like this property because it gives the owners much more versatility on # of units and layout, combining/separating units, etc. (downside is less yard space). I'd guess lots of knob and tube wiring and cast iron plumbing since it was built in 1909, but overall seems to be in good condition and I don't see any deal breakers. I actually like it a lot as far as multi's go.

The biggest thing to be mindful is about tenant's rights and what the current rents are. The value of this property (I'm assuming fully occupied) is 100% dependent on the current rents. My wild guess would be 3.5k for the 3 bed unit, 2.5k for the 2 bed unit, and about 2k for the 1bed units so ideally, 12k (plus rent from "bonus/art studio" space, parking if you want to charge that as extra, and coin laundry). I'd guess that the units are severely under market and that is why it's for sale so maybe 50-75% of market rent if I had to guess (the listing has virtually no information).

I don't know where you're from, but I assume you know you can't raise rents here and you can't evict the tenants. The current property tax at previous 1.2m sale price is already 21k/year and will be much higher at new purchase price. Garbage bills aren't too bad and maybe you'll be on the hook for PG&E fees for common area lighting/laundry, but that's about it.

Hope this helps! 

clarkfan1979

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2022, 12:25:37 PM »
Curious what you think about this property -- it has gone pending since I first saw it, but seemed low priced for so many units.  I assume it needs a ton of work and I know that area is somewhat sketchy, but still...

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Berkeley/1011-Delaware-St-94710/home/1479167

Keep track of this one and re-post the final sales price after it closes. The seller might be pricing under 2 million on purpose to create interest. They might have a bare minimum sell price of 2.5 million.


lhamo

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2022, 01:25:46 PM »
Well, it last sold in 2019 for 1.2 mill, so they are getting a nice bump even at 2 mill.

Can you vacate a unit for family use?  One reason something like this would be attractive to us is that our son just started a Ph.D. program at Berkeley and our daughter is applying to colleges this year.  Not sure she'd get into Berkeley as a direct out of state applicant -- and we couldn't afford it if she did -- but the transfer options are interesting.  Just mulling different possibilities.  Anyway, it is under contract so....

clarkfan1979

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2022, 01:54:33 PM »
Well, it last sold in 2019 for 1.2 mill, so they are getting a nice bump even at 2 mill.

Can you vacate a unit for family use?  One reason something like this would be attractive to us is that our son just started a Ph.D. program at Berkeley and our daughter is applying to colleges this year.  Not sure she'd get into Berkeley as a direct out of state applicant -- and we couldn't afford it if she did -- but the transfer options are interesting.  Just mulling different possibilities.  Anyway, it is under contract so....

I saw a documentary on housing in San Francisco and this issue came up. One was a 2-unit. The new owners were able to kick out the existing tenants in both units because they were going to live in one unit and their aging parents were going to live in the other unit.

There was another guy in the documentary that got kicked out after living in a single unit apartment for 30 years because the owner was selling and the new owners were going to owner occupy.

PMJL34

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2022, 02:05:32 PM »
No OMI (owner-move in) allowed at this time under the memorandum (unless you can find a loop hole).

Edit: Clark, those are before COVID times. OMI is extremely difficult these days even before COVID. For example, there's currently 15k OMI fee before you even start the process that needs to be paid. From there, depending on the length of stay and status of the tenant(s), the fees increase and increase. Furthermore, there are many in the area who are grandfathered in and can never be evicted as in absolutely no OMI possibility (again even pre-covid). Fair warning lhamo. 

Your best bet is to find multi housing that is rented to students because they turnover much more regularly. Or cough up the money to buy a multi with pre-existing vacancy.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 02:12:14 PM by PMJL34 »

zolotiyeruki

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2022, 03:32:28 PM »
No OMI (owner-move in) allowed at this time under the memorandum (unless you can find a loop hole).

Edit: Clark, those are before COVID times. OMI is extremely difficult these days even before COVID. For example, there's currently 15k OMI fee before you even start the process that needs to be paid. From there, depending on the length of stay and status of the tenant(s), the fees increase and increase. Furthermore, there are many in the area who are grandfathered in and can never be evicted as in absolutely no OMI possibility (again even pre-covid). Fair warning lhamo. 
Holy smokes, talk about regulating people out of business.  Gee whiz.  That is nuts.

affordablehousing

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2022, 10:45:56 AM »
Yeah on the comps in the poster's and my area, a vacancy is worth about $200K. If you can find someone with a terminal disease that is also a good way to find a bargain as a lot of larger investors won't recognize that as upside.

But, the main point is that the OP is doing great, and as soon as the tenants start dying, he'll do awesome. Macabre, but true.

PMJL34

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2022, 01:39:57 PM »
Definitely true affordablehousing!  It's a weird/sad/funny place we live in, but that's how the real estate game is played out here.

A friend of a friend was offered just shy of 100K cash for keys and declined about 6 months ago. This renter was not even that much below market, but the seller really wanted to sell. The house got listed anyway below fair value, but didn't sell because of the tenant.

Dicey

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2022, 09:17:39 AM »
And that's how my FIL ended up with an 8-unit building in Berkeley with only one tenant.

Did I mention on this thread that the tenant had no heirs and left his estate* to my in-laws? They then sold the completely empty building for a nice profit. Ownership worked for them in the end, but it took a long time to get there. Anecdata: smaller units tend to turn over more. Their building was studios and one bedrooms.

IIRC, it was about $250k, and the building sold for $1M. This was about twenty years ago.

FrozenAssets

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2023, 07:35:10 PM »
Curious about an update!

halfling

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2023, 08:58:32 PM »
Yeah on the comps in the poster's and my area, a vacancy is worth about $200K. If you can find someone with a terminal disease that is also a good way to find a bargain as a lot of larger investors won't recognize that as upside.

But, the main point is that the OP is doing great, and as soon as the tenants start dying, he'll do awesome. Macabre, but true.

This is one of the bleakest comments I think I've ever read on the internet

I hope I never have a landlord that is eager to cash in on my death

PMJL34

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Re: My personal RE FIRE plans!
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2023, 10:14:05 PM »
Thanks for asking FrozenAssets.

Update:

Ages: 35 36 (self) MFJ + 2 kids (12 + 9 13 +10). Location: Bay area, CA.

My primary residence is a SFH (where we live) and a detached 4plex in the back of the lot.
All in (PITI +utilities) is $4.8k/m
Too confusing for readers. Let's just say I own a 6 unit apartment and I live in one of the 6 apartments. All in PITI+Utilities for the 6unit apt is 4.8K.
Rent received from the 5 other apartments: extremely below market @ $5.1k 7.1k (3 of the tenants are inherited and paying severely below market. eviction memorandum ending next month! but won't be pursuing any evictions as everyone is up to date with payment). My unit would rent for 4.5k or so. I will also be adding one more ADU this year which will rent for $2k finished and rented!
Condition/deferred maintenance: Tons. Will be starting an addition + gut job of my apartment. I estimate about 1 year of work + 60K.
Purchase: 2021 for 1m.
Balance: 750k 740k. APR 2.75%.
Current value: who knows 1.3-1.4m?

I also have a duplex in the same city.
all in (PITI + utilities) = 4k.
Rent: $7.3k. Below market due to section 8 (personal choice).
Condition/deferred maintenance: Great/none.
Purchase: 2014 600k
Balance: 650k 640k due to 250k cashout refi to buy primary in 2021. APR also 2.75%
Current value: who knows 1.2-1.3m?

Stocks: 400k 465k as of today. Mostly deferred, but can access at anytime due to gov't 457 rules.
Cash: 30k
Student loans: 70k. $0! Forgiven!
W-2: 100k
Pension @ 50 = 1.2k? and SS @ 62 = 1k?

My current spend:
Groceries: $500 $650
Restaurants: $350
Car/Gas/insurance/taxes: $300
cell phones/insurances (term life, umbrella, etc), hospital co-pays, glasses etc.: 300 $400
Everything/shopping else: $350
Vacations 5-10k/year just depends. heavy travel rewards/hacking involved. 12k this year

I consider myself to be FI at this time as my rents exceed yearly spend by about 1k/month 2.5k/month (rents =14.4k/m and 11.9k ish/m spending all in) or 172.8k/y rental income and 142.8k/y spend all in = 30k/y buffer for vacancy, repairs, overbudget items etc..

I plan/want to pull the plug when I have saved up 750K 500K stache + 50K cash and when my rents are 14k (done!). Hopefully late 2023/early 2024. Aiming for early 2024. I live a simple, but active life and don't care about anything fancy. Got plenty of house work to keep me busy for a while (I do everything myself). I have zero intention of moving as both sides of the families are local, but travel a lot and plan to be living out of the country several months out of the year. I expect my expenses to mostly remain the same (ACA healthcare projected to be minimal + less auto expenses).

Please poke holes, paths to improvements, any blindsides, or tell me I will be okay lol. Truly appreciate the feedback.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 12:07:27 PM by PMJL34 »