Low income rentals

[DudeMan]

Hello, new guy here

I make enough each year to pay cash for 2 low income area properties that would likely rent for $500-$700 each per month.

It seems like a better ROI than the burbs where a property will cost triple or quadruple just to earn $1100.

OTOH some repairs cost the same be it a nice house or a dump. I'd recover faster in the burbs from repairs due to the higher rent but it's at the expense of a lower ROI of invested funds.

Anyone care to comment?

I think I'd like to eventually diversify my rentals. Maybe 5 in the hood, 5 in the burbs & 5 in the sticks (still in town though) all within 60 minutes of my home.

[arebelspy]

I'm starting to diversify into some lower income ones as well (as well as diversify geographically, in different cities and states), but the key part to me is the neighborhood.  Think about the tenant quality.  Shoot for solid, working class neighborhoods.  Often the low income ones have great paper returns that don't pan out due to the high vacancy and turnover.

It's all about maximizing real (not paper) returns, minimizing hassle.

There's a sweet spot to be found (and it may differ based on the landlord), but the super low end or super high end probably isn't it.

[DudeMan]

Appreciate the reply

I'm not really clear on what "working class" means

Suburbs right?

I live in STL, the murder capital of America damn near every other year.

If it isn't the suburbs or the sticks it's pretty much gunshots & sirens everywhere else.

[_JT]

I've lived in seven states, from Louisiana out to California, and I've toured in 48 as a musician. That's a gross over-simplication anywhere. New Orleans has pretty awful violent crime, but even in the 'bad' neighborhoods there are good blocks and good streets. It makes your life as a landlord MUCH easier if you locate them.

[Daleth]

Hello, new guy here

I make enough each year to pay cash for 2 low income area properties that would likely rent for $500-$700 each per month.

It seems like a better ROI than the burbs where a property will cost triple or quadruple just to earn $1100.

OTOH some repairs cost the same be it a nice house or a dump. I'd recover faster in the burbs from repairs due to the higher rent but it's at the expense of a lower ROI of invested funds.

Anyone care to comment?

I think I'd like to eventually diversify my rentals. Maybe 5 in the hood, 5 in the burbs & 5 in the sticks (still in town though) all within 60 minutes of my home.

Some friends of ours are making a ton of money that way. They describe themselves as "ethical slumlords," i.e., they treat tenants right and maintain their houses (unlike 98% of slumlords) but they pay cash for $30k houses that rent for $1200/mo and $20k houses that rent for $900. They're making money hand over fist. That said, rather than target the typical slumlord renter, their ads and approach are designed to lure students, artists and very young professionals into an area that such people didn't used to rent.

[DudeMan]

That's pretty much my plan

$35K free & clear renting for $750 while providing a clean, affordable & respectable environment.

I feel I'm conservative in assuming this creates $400 a month after taxes/ins, repairs, maintenance & vacancies. I'm a noob however so maybe it's less...

You bring up an interesting point in regards to selling an "outsider" the unit. I'm glad I joined the forum now, that's a great tip!

[Another Reader]

I can think of a couple of cases where a creative and enthusiastic real estate agent changed s neighborhood by marketing it to the right people.  It works best in older neighborhoods with stocks of old houses on nice lots that have not deteriorated into war zones yet.  You do have to be careful of "steering" if you are licensed.

[DudeMan]

Any ideas on the costs for a property management firm?

Google results are mixed, as expected of course. I see 8% to almost 20% of the payment upon my quick n dirty research.

Thanks again for all the input so far guys.

[arebelspy]

Any ideas on the costs for a property management firm?

Google results are mixed, as expected of course. I see 8% to almost 20% of the payment upon my quick n dirty research.

Thanks again for all the input so far guys.

6-10%.  The problem with a low income area like that and low cost rentals is the management may have a monthly "minimum" per unit, rather than a flat rate.  If they want at least $100/unit, and your rent is $600/unit, that's 16.7% of gross rents towards property management.

The other issue is that many PMs don't want to deal with those properties.  The amount of hassle they are for the PMs versus the amount they get paid for them just isn't worth it.

It's part of the same due diligence when checking out the neighborhood - make sure before you purchase properties like that make sure that you find at least a few property management companies to give you their rental estimates (to compare it against your comps) and verify that they'd be willing to manage it.

If too many of them say no, they won't manage in that area, that's probably a sign for you to not purchase in that area.

[DudeMan]

Thank you again for the advice.

My job requires I deal with property managers from time to time. I have to admit, quite often the PM of these areas seems to just be a random dude in a pickup that unclogs a toilet or lets a tradesmen in to work.

I assumed that was due to the investor squeezing every cent from their property but you've made me aware that perhaps their only option is a retired ol timer handyman.

Damn, that puts the late night calls & bill collections right back into my possession.

Sounds like I need to find PM's before bidding on properties!

Word

[_JT]

It's part of the same due diligence when checking out the neighborhood - make sure before you purchase properties like that make sure that you find at least a few property management companies to give you their rental estimates (to compare it against your comps) and verify that they'd be willing to manage it.

If too many of them say no, they won't manage in that area, that's probably a sign for you to not purchase in that area.

That's an awesome tip. I've been running my calcs with a 10% management fee, but since I plan on self managing my first property I haven't actually gone through the steps to interview any PMs yet. That's a great way to get a second opinion on what my expected level of pain in the ass-ness will be.

[arebelspy]

It's part of the same due diligence when checking out the neighborhood - make sure before you purchase properties like that make sure that you find at least a few property management companies to give you their rental estimates (to compare it against your comps) and verify that they'd be willing to manage it.

If too many of them say no, they won't manage in that area, that's probably a sign for you to not purchase in that area.

That's an awesome tip. I've been running my calcs with a 10% management fee, but since I plan on self managing my first property I haven't actually gone through the steps to interview any PMs yet. That's a great way to get a second opinion on what my expected level of pain in the ass-ness will be.

Indeed.  And it's good to know anyways, because while you may manage it now, you might pass it off to a property manager at some future point, so it's a good idea to talk to some about the area and get a feel for the PMs in your area.

Obviously don't waste their time if you aren't planning on hiring them, but plenty are glad to chat about real estate and particular areas, even for a future potential client.

[randymarsh]

Appreciate the reply

I'm not really clear on what "working class" means

Suburbs right?

Suburbs to me has always meant at least lower middle class - teachers, accountants, etc. Working class is more blue collar - manual labor like construction, mechanics, hourly wage, etc. There's obviously some overlap - electricians can make good money but it's blue collar.

In my area all of this blends together, so it's finding the right neighborhood or street. Hard to paint with broad strokes. I went to high school with kids who had household incomes of under 25K and households with incomes of 200K+.

[arebelspy]

Appreciate the reply

I'm not really clear on what "working class" means

Suburbs right?

Suburbs to me has always meant at least lower middle class - teachers, accountants, etc. Working class is more blue collar - manual labor like construction, mechanics, hourly wage, etc. There's obviously some overlap - electricians can make good money but it's blue collar.

In my area all of this blends together, so it's finding the right neighborhood or street. Hard to paint with broad strokes. I went to high school with kids who had household incomes of under 25K and households with incomes of 200K+.

Either/or.  Those are the tenants you want to shoot for in general, yeah.  Solid work history, just unable to save or buy their own home.  Maybe hit a rough patch and had a foreclosure, or whatever.

[exstrax]

I work in this space.  Avg. acquisition price $50k (including repairs) avg. rent $950.  I've done 13 units in the past few years. You can expect between 6% and 10% annual return after taxes, insurance, management, maintenance, vacancy allowance, professional fees, etc.  No mortgages.  First thing to know, it's not a passive investment strategy.  There is a lot of work to be done.  I see this as a positive but others might not agree.  Generally speaking, low income rentals require more work on the management and maintenance side than higher priced rentals.  Harder to find quality tenants, many don't pay on time, constant maintenance requests, etc.  Many of the buildings in the 35k price range have a ton of deferred maintenance.  So the key is to have a good (and cheap) handyman (bonus points if that handyman is you) and a solid property manager or property management skills (strong, professional, organized, able to say "no", and good radar for BS). If you want to do the whole thing yourself, I'd strongly recommend reading the Section 8 Bible (www.section8bible.com) It looks a bit silly but it's honestly full of valuable information.  For example, take out all of your ceiling fans and garbage disposals.  Those two things alone will save you dozens of maintenance calls in the long run.  Also familiarize yourself with the eviction court process in your municipality, you'll probably be there sooner or later.

[Letj]

Appreciate the reply

I'm not really clear on what "working class" means

Suburbs right?

I live in STL, the murder capital of America damn near every other year.

If it isn't the suburbs or the sticks it's pretty much gunshots & sirens everywhere else.

Where are you talking about?  I live in a city with a pretty high murder rate given the size of the population but I live in a neighborhood comprised primarily of high income earners.  This is quite an exaggeration since most of the crime is confined to certain pockets of the city and even so it's confined even more to the people who actually engage in the drug trade or otherwise shady.  I don't think the average person living there or landlord owning houses face much of a risk.  Anywhere can be dangerous in America.  You just have to use caution and know how not to make yourself a target.  I don't think you plan on taking a stroll a night.  Do you?  I would not take a stroll as a woman alone anywhere at night whether it's the hood or Safeville.

[MKinVA]

Don't mean to answer for the OP, but just to add perspective, I think the problem with high crime reputation cities is that often the real estate is either affordable (as investment property) but in a bad neighborhood or it's in a better area but way too expensive for investment returns.

It's not so much personal safety taking a walk as it is cars, garages, etc being broken into, some general vandalism, packages taken off the stoop, etc. all this drives down the rent you can charge.

By the way, I live in the city that is number one on the list the years that St. Louis isn't!

[mpbaker22]

Appreciate the reply

I'm not really clear on what "working class" means

Suburbs right?

I live in STL, the murder capital of America damn near every other year.

If it isn't the suburbs or the sticks it's pretty much gunshots & sirens everywhere else.

What area of St. Louis do you live in?  I'm going to go ahead and bet you don't actually live in St. Louis or you wouldn't have made that statement.  I do agree that the murder rate is incredibly high, but if you look into it, it mostly centralizes in 2-3 areas.  That being said, I've noticed the hot-spot policing is actually shifting the murder rates to other centralized areas.

What area of St. Louis are you considering buying in?  A lot of the $30-$40K properties are up near the airport, Berkeley, Ferguson, Florissant, etc. but there are others elsewhere.

[DudeMan]

I've lived in St Ann, U-City, Florissant, Troy, St Peters & Lake St Louis

Born & raised a MO boy. I've also spent some time in CO, CA & IL over the years too.

I deal with property managers for the same reason I deal with homicide detectives. My job.

No I'm not a cop... But try convincing a cop STL is "fine" & it will certainly fall on deaf ears. Murder is one component of crime, theft & assault are others which are a concern for me.

All the areas you mention commonly & repeatedly have their copper water pipes stolen in broad daylight BTW. Also those areas are STILL declining, it isn't over yet for them. There's even a documentary about that area. That IS the area I am considering too. Any thoughts?

Hell Chevy Chase had his hubcaps stolen on National Lampoons Vacation when visiting STL :-)

While it's true crime doesn't have an address it does seem hang out in some places more than others.

Also when I hear "find the good streets" I dismiss that advice as those streets change year to year as people move, change & etc more so than entire planned developments.

I'm not here to discuss philosophy guys, just ROI's :-)

[_JT]

Also when I hear "find the good streets" I dismiss that advice as those streets change year to year as people move, change & etc more so than entire planned developments.

I'm not here to discuss philosophy guys, just ROI's :-)

You're not here to discuss anything, it seems. Just make excuses why good advice doesn't apply to you. Best of luck with that.

[DudeMan]

I've obviously offended you.

My apologies

I've read some great info in this thread, thanks guys.

[mpbaker22]

I've lived in St Ann, U-City, Florissant, Troy, St Peters & Lake St Louis

Born & raised a MO boy. I've also spent some time in CO, CA & IL over the years too.

I deal with property managers for the same reason I deal with homicide detectives. My job.

No I'm not a cop... But try convincing a cop STL is "fine" & it will certainly fall on deaf ears. Murder is one component of crime, theft & assault are others which are a concern for me.

I didn't say STL is fine, I said certain parts of STL are fine.  And I'm not talking about one street here and one street there

All the areas you mention commonly & repeatedly have their copper water pipes stolen in broad daylight BTW. Also those areas are STILL declining, it isn't over yet for them. There's even a documentary about that area. That IS the area I am considering too. Any thoughts?

Hell Chevy Chase had his hubcaps stolen on National Lampoons Vacation when visiting STL :-)

First off, I believe Chevy Chase was in ESL which is ENTIRELY different than STL.  :P
I highly doubt the areas repeatedly have their copper water pipes stolen, because once a home has their pipes stolen, the owner usually replaces with PEX.  Favorite sign in St. Louis.  It's hard to read from the angle, but it says "contains all aluminum wire (No Copper)"
Also, most every area doesn't just randomly have the pipes stolen in occupied housing.  It almost always happens in buildings that are vacant, and stay vacant for months at a time.  Even if they're vacant, if you live nearby and visit every week or more, you'll probably be ok.

I would agree that North St. Louis county, especially Florissant and Hazelwood, are still in decline.  Parts of north St. Louis City are actually on their way up, IMO.

While it's true crime doesn't have an address it does seem hang out in some places more than others.

True.

Also when I hear "find the good streets" I dismiss that advice as those streets change year to year as people move, change & etc more so than entire planned developments.

I'm not here to discuss philosophy guys, just ROI's :-)

Not true.  There are some neighborhoods that change back and forth over time.  However, there are some that consistently stay one way or the other. 

[mpbaker22]

Now for some actual advice:
If you want to talk about this, PM me.  I'm actually considering something similar in similar areas.
Get to know the areas before you purchase.  You don't want to purchase in an area you don't feel comfortable visiting.  Know that some construction types won't want to go into your areas to do repairs.  I know some contractors won't visit certain zip codes.

As an example, I think Berkeley has streets that are mostly comparable to each other.  It does seem to have 30K homes renting for $750/month.  The way I see it with those is if you do the legwork yourself, you pay off the home pretty quickly.  I would assume repair costs as a higher percentage than a home in Chesterfield, but it will certainly be a lower dollar cost.

You are probably aware that most people talk in terms of dividing lines, but those dividing lines are not strict.  For example, people say don't go north of Delmar.  While true in parts of the city, there are $500,000 homes north of Delmar, especially in the Western half of the city.  Point being that generic dividing lines are not useful.

Interestingly, I looked at moving to one of these ares in north city for the beautiful architecture.  Despite being more dangerous than where I live now (Maplewood), the rent was higher!  and I don't mean like $5 higher, I mean $100s higher.  You might be undervaluing the rent you can charge.

Also, this should be useful for you - http://www.stltoday.com/st-louis-area-murder-map/html_3bf7a0a8-0440-5ada-aacf-11e4314a9956.html
There's also a crime index somewhere on stltoday.  Notice there aren't a whole lot of murders between skinker, Delmar, 170, and 70.  But those property values are still really low.
In general, I'd agree that robberies and thefs are the bigger problem.  The likelihood of being murdered is incredibly low.  On that map, about 99% of them are either gang or domestic.

[_JT]

I've obviously offended you.

My apologies

I've read some great info in this thread, thanks guys.

Not in the slightest, actually. I'm not an expert here, just a guy who's lived basically everywhere and knows there are absolutely 'good' pockets in 'bad' areas. Something that many successful RE investors also know. So it's frustrating to offer help to someone who doesn't really want it, because they assume they know more than they actually do.

[Mazzinator]

I've lived in seven states, from Louisiana out to California, and I've toured in 48 as a musician. That's a gross over-simplication anywhere. New Orleans has pretty awful violent crime, but even in the 'bad' neighborhoods there are good blocks and good streets. It makes your life as a landlord MUCH easier if you locate them.

Gunslingers???

[_JT]

I guess the fact that I don't know what that means answers your question.

[Mazzinator]

Yep, ok cool...sorry to highjack...

Otherwise i find this thread very interesting and informative, so thanks!

[iris lily]

Appreciate the reply

I'm not really clear on what "working class" means

Suburbs right?

I live in STL, the murder capital of America damn near every other year.

If it isn't the suburbs or the sticks it's pretty much gunshots & sirens everywhere else.

Are there houses that actually rent for $500? They must be small. Where are they, north of the city? I live in STL as well in the Central corridor.

[DudeMan]

North City has absolutely has sub $500 rents

Hell St. Charles has em too

Plenty in No Co for sure

[mpbaker22]

I'm not sure about houses renting sub-$500, but certainly duplexes will rent out with each unit at $500 or less in areas.
They're all as shitty as can be, but they do exist.

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/apa/4169082876.html

There are some more, but most are $650-$850.  You'll notice a lot of those places don't advertise the exact address.  They advertise the zip code, town, nearby main roads, etc.  I've heard this is because they don't want to advertise that their buildings are vacant.

I'm not so sure that St. Charles has sub $500 rents for houses. But I'm certain they have apartments for that much.  I've seen 1 BR apartments as low as $300 in the city.

[DudeMan]

You're right about the <$500 St. Charles rentals being apartments.

From what I understand the low rent apartments are like 12 unit buildings & many buildings although they look identical are owned by different investors.

I'm really aprehensive about buying a property like that but I'm a rental noob so maybe that will change.

[more4less]

I have a question, gentlemen. How relevant age of the building to maintenance expenses and potential appreciation? I'm looking at one working-class neighborhood and it has mostly houses built in 1930s. Would it pose any problems in the future? PS: if climate matters it's Texas.

[mpbaker22]

I have a question, gentlemen. How relevant age of the building to maintenance expenses and potential appreciation? I'm looking at one working-class neighborhood and it has mostly houses built in 1930s. Would it pose any problems in the future? PS: if climate matters it's Texas.

The variance on this is huge and I mentioned it in a PM to Dudeman.  A lot of buildings have been completely repaired and might as well have been built yesterday, in terms of maintenance and repairs.  Many buildings in St. Louis from that time frame(actually most St. Louis houses are either pre-1920 or post-1950) sell dirt cheap because they need $10K roof, $10K tuck-pointing, $10K on new electric, and another $50K on kitchens, bathrooms, plumbing fixes, etc (you get the idea).  Even repaired, they're only worth $100K, so they sell for next to nothing.
If they're old enough and have unique architectural elements, that can actually add to their value.

[honobob]

It seems like a better ROI than the burbs where a property will cost triple or quadruple just to earn $1100.

OTOH some repairs cost the same be it a nice house or a dump. I'd recover faster in the burbs from repairs due to the higher rent but it's at the expense of a lower ROI of invested funds.

Anyone care to comment?

 

What do you think accounts for the difference?

[DudeMan]

I'm starting to think I don't want to deal with being a landlord of low income areas.

The whole point of a MMM lifestyle is to eat less shit for money since I don't really need it.

So I prefer to live on less than kiss ass & work :-)

If my house/cars are paid off & I have money in the bank why chase MORE money? All I really want to do is eat BBQ, play disc golf & get drunk anyway.

If investments tank, Russia invades & bird flu breaks out I don't think some slum investments will save me anyway.

[daverobev]

I'm starting to think I don't want to deal with being a landlord of low income areas.

The whole point of a MMM lifestyle is to eat less shit for money since I don't really need it.

So I prefer to live on less than kiss ass & work :-)

If my house/cars are paid off & I have money in the bank why chase MORE money? All I really want to do is eat BBQ, play disc golf & get drunk anyway.

If investments tank, Russia invades & bird flu breaks out I don't think some slum investments will save me anyway.

You need to do an asset allocation/investor risk profile!

Probably check out Couch Potato stuff. Get some REITs for property exposure (just make sure they are the right kind of REITs).

[iris lily]

I'm starting to think I don't want to deal with being a landlord of low income areas.

The whole point of a MMM lifestyle is to eat less shit for money since I don't really need it.

So I prefer to live on less than kiss ass & work :-)

If my house/cars are paid off & I have money in the bank why chase MORE money? All I really want to do is eat BBQ, play disc golf & get drunk anyway.

If investments tank, Russia invades & bird flu breaks out I don't think some slum investments will save me anyway.

I personally believe that tenants and ghetto properties are a fullsome experience of hell. I never want to be a landlord.

We own 3 little houses that I call our "hobby houses" and they are not habitable but they are cute, and we mainly have them for extra garden space. They lose money every year for us but they are sort of our vacation places, we need big gardens!  I like tiny Victorian houses but dislike extremely tenants that might inhabit them.

[ColtCeverz]

I Read this whole thread in detail, I love at the end dudeman is like, what the hell i dont want to invest in slum properties,Id rather eat BBQ, drink bear and play disc golf. Im the same way and like all these things. I read the thread because Ive been thinking about what to do with some money Ive inherited. Thinking about buying a house outright but toying with the idea of a rental. After reading it seems like a mega pain in the ass. I might just want to buy a house and invest more in the market and leave the rest to everyone else. lol