Author Topic: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms  (Read 5550 times)

tips^up

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Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« on: December 12, 2019, 02:27:00 PM »
My wife, baby and I toured a home for sale last night.  The list price is $899,900, 5,885 square feet, 7 bed, 6 bathrooms.
It is very nice and very fancy, it would be a big step up for us as far as quality goes.  Luxury vinyl plank, granite countertops, copper farm tub sink, big walk-in master closet, clawfoot tub as well as steam shower in master bath, 30' ceiling in living room, gas fireplace, outdoor firepit, 2+ car garage, all high end stuff in the top neighborhood in town.

The catch is that the basement is a very big, nice 2-bedroom lock-off, and there is a garage apartment lock-off as well.  Rents in my area are very high.  We've house hacked twice now - which has enabled us to build up the next down payment without having to sell.  (on top of my full-time job) I self-manage our 3 rental units with 7 tenants between 2 properties (including our basement lock-off).  This one would bring those totals up to 5 units, 10? tenants, 3 properties.  Living in luxury...with roommates.

Running the numbers:
$899,900 list price
$870,000 purchase price
20% down = $174,000 (We would need to clear out the betterment investment account [plus some savings].  In theory, this has been our short-term savings account for the next investment property, but its scary to cash it out.)

Monthly:
$3125 mortgage payment (30 year mortgage, 3.5%, $696,000 principle)
$1025 taxes, HOA, insurance, utilities
$4150 total expenses
$3500 lock-offs revenue
$650 monthly cost of ownership
We would rent out our current space, estimated at $2300.
Net result, +$1650/month, or $19,800/year (plus, no housing expense).

This move into a huge luxury home could essentially be the F-U money move that opens up the next chapter of our lives.  At 35, I'm over my job.  Our 5-month old baby is so fun, and we found an amazing babysitter, but we'd be able to be more involved with her, and possibly more kids down the road.  My wife loves her job, but it'd be nice to focus more on family than careers, and have the pieces in place to FIRE or at least the freedom of FI to influence our daily lives.

I think the huge mortgage is a great opportunity to lock in long-term cheap debt.  On our 2 current properties, we have about $650k outstanding mortgages now (both about 25 years remaining at 3.375% and 3.625%), but they are positive cash flow in a desirable, appreciating area and strong rental demand.

How's it sound?  The piece I'm most concerned about is cashing out the betterment account (truly passive, includes about $20k money for nothin), but that's been my savings vehicle for exactly this type of property.  Also a little nervous having 3 investments all in the same basket (houses in our town).  What do you think?  Anyone doing luxury house hacking?

affordablehousing

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2019, 02:44:14 PM »
sounds fine as a house hacking idea. real estate must be crazy cheap by you. I'm surprised that in such a large house there would be vinyl flooring, I would worry about the cost of doing a 6,000 sf flooring job to put wood in. How much in repairs do you have to do to get it updated? There's nothing worse than an overbuilt mcmansion with an enormous volume of finishes to update.

robartsd

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2019, 03:04:39 PM »
Are you concerned that this purchase would put you in a position that is too exposed to RE? I assume that even though you would be wiping out your taxable account you still would have a good position in retirement accounts; how much of your NW would be locked into RE if you do make this deal? Are you concerned that managing your RE will become too much?

AMandM

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2019, 06:14:30 AM »
I'm unclear on what you're considering. Will the three of you live in the 7-br house, or live in the 2-br basement and rent out the 7-br part?

I personally would not in a million years sign up to live in (and heat/cool, and maintain, and clean) seven bedrooms for three people. Not even--perhaps especially not--if I hoped to add more little people. If those hopes go unfulfilled, all those empty bedrooms would be devastatingly sad.

As for the betterment account, if this is what it was created for, in the context of an overall sound portfolio and retirement plan with proper diversification blah blah, then you can ignore your feelings of unease.

robartsd

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2019, 09:11:20 AM »
I'm unclear on what you're considering. Will the three of you live in the 7-br house, or live in the 2-br basement and rent out the 7-br part?
I had assumed that the 7 bedrooms included the 2 in the basement (perhaps 1 in the apartment over the garage as well). Still a 4-5 bedroom house is pretty large for 3 people.

tips^up

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2019, 10:20:01 AM »
sounds fine as a house hacking idea. real estate must be crazy cheap by you. I'm surprised that in such a large house there would be vinyl flooring, I would worry about the cost of doing a 6,000 sf flooring job to put wood in. How much in repairs do you have to do to get it updated? There's nothing worse than an overbuilt mcmansion with an enormous volume of finishes to update.

Interesting thoughts!  I have traditionally considered this a high cost of living area but I think it's really not bad.  High housing and rent, but taxes are cheap (Colorado).  But this home does fall into a soft spot in the market - out of reach for "working locals," but not drawing the attention of rich investors/tourists.

Luxury vinyl plank means the fancy synthetic hardwood floors.  I doubt they will ever need to be updated.  It looks and feels like high quality hardwood, but nearly impossible to destroy.

There would be a few updates to make, but its basically turn-key.  Not sure how we would ever use a clawfoot tub?  Seems obnoxious to me, maybe install a jetted tub for apres ski days!

utaca

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2019, 10:34:27 AM »
My wife and kid and I live in a 2000 square foot home and I feel like we have too much space. You'll have almost 2000 square feet for each person! Others have mentioned heating/cooling costs. But what about cleaning? It would be like a second full time job. And then you can't really keep the 6000 square feet empty, so you'll have to fill it up with furniture and junk and more junk... I would re-think this.

tips^up

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2019, 10:44:20 AM »
Are you concerned that this purchase would put you in a position that is too exposed to RE? I assume that even though you would be wiping out your taxable account you still would have a good position in retirement accounts; how much of your NW would be locked into RE if you do make this deal? Are you concerned that managing your RE will become too much?

A little bit concerned.  My day job is commercial real estate appraiser - basically studying how people make money using RE - so I am comfortable in my analysis of our market and this deal.  Still, lots of eggs in this basket (3 residential rental properties all in the same town).

My wife and I each have healthy retirement accounts.  Not enough for FIRE, but a good start.  So far, self-managing a few tenants has been easy.  Our area attracts great people; we've made friends, never bounced a rent check, learned that I should not allow them to get a puppy, and things have been mostly good.

My (no spouse) NW right now is about:
5% cash
1% HSA
30% investments (Roth IRA, 401a, 457, betterment)
64% RE equity (based on market value estimates, less 6% selling commission, less debt)
These are based off total NW estimate of about $875k, most of which is house appreciation.

Never actually looked at it this way until now, so this has been a useful exercise.  This would definitely shift more from investment to RE.  But the top is in, so probably good timing, right?

tips^up

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2019, 10:48:07 AM »
I'm unclear on what you're considering. Will the three of you live in the 7-br house, or live in the 2-br basement and rent out the 7-br part?
I had assumed that the 7 bedrooms included the 2 in the basement (perhaps 1 in the apartment over the garage as well). Still a 4-5 bedroom house is pretty large for 3 people.

AMandM and robartsd - 7 total bedrooms.  2 in the basement, 1 above the garage, 4 in main house.  There's a good chance our family of 3 will grow to 4 or 6 in the next few years, but I had the thought too, that we would live in the basement now and maximize the rent on the main house.  Not sure, lots of questions on this one.

waltworks

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2019, 11:27:47 AM »
I've done something similar (can look up the thread if you're interested) where we built a lockout apartment in the basement of our stupidly huge ~4500 square foot house (around the same value as what you're looking to buy) and rented it out (in Park City, I'm guessing from your username you're a skier).

I thought it was great. The biggest issue for us was parking because the HOA wouldn't let any parking happen on soft surfaces, and the garage was filled with my machine tools. But it wasn't really a big deal since we hardly ever drove anywhere. We were super picky about tenants and found great ones right away. It paid the mortgage and then some. Would totally do it again.

You should make sure you can legally rent the apartments, and find out if you need a rental license or something along those lines. If there's an HOA make sure you read the CC&Rs carefully to see if there's anything that could cause problems. Might even be worth chatting up the neighbors to see what they're like (ie, if there's a guy who vacuums his driveway every day... expect trouble).

I think your assumptions are probably a little rosy on income and expenses but not to the point that I wouldn't do it. I mean, it's a bit like buying a 1% rule property that costs $350k, and then buying yourself a really nice, overly large house that costs $520k or so. But there are some significant advantages in terms of management and maintenance, so that's probably the most conservative way to look at it.

I would look very hard at renting your current home, though. If you've got significant gains there, I'd run the numbers because you'll lose that cap gains exemption in a couple of years. If your town is like mine, it's probably not a great rental. If so, sell it and roll the money into other investments.

You will be massively overexposed to RE so if your local market takes a dump, it'll suck. But I'd still do it.

-W
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 11:39:06 AM by waltworks »

tips^up

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2019, 11:44:50 AM »
I've done something similar (can look up the thread if you're interested) where we build a lockout apartment in the basement of our stupidly huge ~4500 square foot house (around the same value as what you're looking to buy) and rented it out (in Park City, I'm guessing from your username you're a skier).

I thought it was great. The biggest issue for us was parking because the HOA wouldn't let any parking happen on soft surfaces, and the garage was filled with my machine tools. But it wasn't really a big deal since we hardly ever drove anywhere. We were super picky about tenants and found great ones right away. It paid the mortgage and then some. Would totally do it again.

You should make sure you can legally rent the apartments, and find out if you need a rental license or something along those lines. If there's an HOA make sure you read the CC&Rs carefully to see if there's anything that could cause problems. Might even be worth chatting up the neighbors to see what they're like (ie, if there's a guy who vacuums his driveway every day... expect trouble).

I think your assumptions are probably a little rosy on income and expenses but not to the point that I wouldn't do it. You will be massively overexposed to RE so if your local market takes a dump, it'll suck. But I'd still do it.

-W

Thanks Walt.  I thought you were still based out of Steamboat?  Besides skiing, I'm also a mountain biker so I've heard of your company.  I've seen you on here quite a bit too, which is cool.

It's in Eagle, CO.  A relatively affordable bedroom community to Vail and Beaver Creek.  As long as Vail Resorts is still in business, I don't see our local market crashing long-term.  I believe the rental revenue is pretty accurate and could be higher.
 Both are high quality units, so they could likely command more, but my approach (especially in a "roommate" situation, where we're in the same home) has been 1st last security deposit (huge chunk of change, generally rules out bums) and below market rent (get tons of applicants, choose the best fit, they stay for long time).  I think with the size, location and quality, $1500 for 1-bedroom and $2k for 2-br basement matches those criteria.

You did, however, hit the 3 nails on the head!  The downsides are 1) the HOA only allows 1 rental unit.  Not sure if this risk is worth it or not.  2) the parking situation might be complicated (it's all covered in snow right now so I need to do some more research - riding my fat bike by there later this afternoon).  Another plus is that it's literally at one of the great mtb trailheads we have.  3) in the Recession, Eagle and Gypsum RE values were hit hard.  Vail and Beaver Creek barely registered a blip.  Apparently if you were super loaded, you did not have to sell for a loss, while the local "workers" market was devastated by the decreases to our only industries: construction, tourism, real estate.  Long-term, values have shot past pre-Recession levels and they're not making any more land close to Blue Sky Basin or Birds of Prey.

robartsd

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2019, 12:20:25 PM »
My (no spouse) NW right now is about:
5% cash
1% HSA
30% investments (Roth IRA, 401a, 457, betterment)
64% RE equity (based on market value estimates, less 6% selling commission, less debt)
These are based off total NW estimate of about $875k, most of which is house appreciation.

Never actually looked at it this way until now, so this has been a useful exercise.  This would definitely shift more from investment to RE.  But the top is in, so probably good timing, right?
I don't know that the top is in (don't time the market and all that), but we have had a good market for many years, so you'd certainly be selling with nice gains. Is your wife's allocation similar?

It does sound like a good deal that you can make money on, but I would be concerned about the RE exposure. You could get lucky and have it work out really well for you, or you could get unlucky and have it set you back quite a bit. Biggest risk is that a local real estate decline takes away both your equity and your income. Personally I'd consider if it is time to let go of one of the other properties - especially if significant appreciation could be excluded from income taxes.

Jon Bon

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2019, 12:35:42 PM »
No thanks.

I don't want to live that close to my tenants. I dont even want my tenants to know where I live. All it takes is one crazy person and you are screwed.

I want my house to be free from work and the hassles of being a landlord. Hard to do when they are about 20 feet away.

You're spending damn near 1 million dollars to live near your tenants? Why not buy just a normal 500k house with everything you want and a completely separate rental property if you need to scratch that itch?

Would this work? Sure you would most likely make money. Personally I like to keep my business and personal life separate.  Oh also something to note, this might be a hard house to sell. Not sure where you are but likely this is a unique house with few folks who would want that sort of set up.

Oh also utilities? are the sub-metered? Because if they are not you know the heat is gonna be on with the window open!




habanero

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2019, 01:01:08 PM »
From general observations (including myself) I think people tend to greatly underestimate the costs of owning and maintaining a Large House. Now that Im a bit older and wiser I'm very happy we did not buy a even larger house with even more space we don't really need. There is a lot of stuff that scales with real estate square footage, especially if it's a house requiring some getting-up-to-currentish-standards right away. As far as I can see your montly cashflow estimate does not contain maintenance whatsoever. It might not be needed now if the house is in a good condition, maybe not in a few years but eventually it will kick in and the one-off cost of whatever is needed might be quite large. You already have a lot of eggs in the real estate basket so on an AA basis alone I would be reluctant to add even more.

This is the main reason why I prefer index fund. Yes the valuations might crash from time to time, but the underlying investments are cash-generating businesses and the investment strategy requires zero effort from my side. No tenants, hardly any fees or other costs, no people you have to deal with, no walls to be painted, no pipes that can break, no roof leaking and no contractors to deal with. For me all this alone would be worth lower returns of that was the case (which it isn't in my part of the world). And the last thing I'd ever want is a tenant in my own house, but your mileage might vary of course. Having a tenant in one's own house it's a gold mine here (the rental income is tax free if renting part of own residence) but still I do not want it as I prefer the privacy over the cash.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 01:02:47 PM by habaneroNorway »

waltworks

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2019, 01:03:10 PM »
I'm very familiar with Eagle, and I have a relative who owned a rental there during the recession - as you know, it didn't go well at all. So yeah, that's your biggest risk. A $900k house in Eagle is pretty weird, you're probably right that it's not appealing to either of the normal parts of the market there. Might be worth trying a lowball if you decide to go for it.

The HOA limit is potentially a big deal, since all it takes is one disgruntled neighbor (or tenant) to rat you out - and that's assuming it's not the kind of HOA where they actually drive around and inspect.

Steamboat has too long of a mud season, I don't think I could handle it there - just curious, why did you think I was there? And honestly the mountain biking is only ok - Emerald gets old pretty fast. If they get the new stuff up on Rabbit Ears built eventually that might change things some, but it'll still be a super short season. In PC we can usually ride on dry trails until a few weeks before we're skate skiing typically. Spring still sucks, but that's what Moab's for...

Let us know what you do!

-W

theoverlook

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2019, 08:19:33 AM »
You're currently living in a similar setup with a lockoff, so you know your comfort level there right? It sounds like a great move financially if the numbers are solid.

I live in a similar situation, 6,300sf shared with another family, and one shock is the maintenance costs can be very high. They're not 3x what a 2,000sf house would cost but they are a lot higher. Everything costs more when it's three times as big. We bought as a fixer-upper and for example the roof was $23k, flooring is per square foot so the multiple just keeps going there, etc. We've had moments where it felt like a foolish decision, but we've continued to add to our 'stache while living in a gigantic house in a great neighborhood in an amazing location - similar deal, a bike path entrance is right across the street. It's kind of funny how many things line up between out house and the one you're talking about, except ours is in Ohio. We even have a one bedroom apartment in the garage / outbuilding, but it's in rough shape and I use it all as workshop space.

Treasure those luxury vinyl plank floors. We had our wood floors refinished, along with installing some more, and I wish I'd just ripped them all out and put in LVP. Kids are SO ROUGH on wood floors. Three kids and four adults have done one heck of a number on our wood floors in five years. They are pretty, but LVP is the better product for a busy house.

tips^up

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2019, 09:31:44 AM »
Steamboat has too long of a mud season, I don't think I could handle it there - just curious, why did you think I was there?

Not sure why I had that association?  I've never been in a position to order a custom bike until the past few years, but I'd heard of WaltWorks a long time ago.  Seems like it'd be an awesome business and/or FIRE hobby!

waltworks

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2019, 12:30:48 PM »
It's a great gig, indeed. Fun enough that I'll probably never stop, FIRE or no. My wife has resigned herself to living with thousands of pounds of industrial machinery and such forever, I think.

Steamboat was on the list for us (criteria were excellent public schools and skiing/mountain biking out the door, basically) but PC won out. Now I'm second guessing that, though, because the development/growth here is just insane. Then again I think that's the case everywhere in the western US right now.

-W

affordablehousing

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2019, 01:30:20 PM »
The economics sound like a boom and bust vacation town. Didn't mean my comment to sound snarky, I've just never encountered vinyl floors on a high-end home before. It sounds like this area is more maintenance driven. I think you're probably in a fine spot to do it. In a downturn, appraisers get busy with all the foreclosures to value.

clarkfan1979

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2019, 04:26:07 PM »
I did something similar in Hawaii when I used to live there. We bought a "fixer" for 603k in a neighborhood with the median house price around 800K. We spent 50K on renovations and it is now worth 800K.

There is separate basement unit that rents for $1600/month. Our total mortgage was $2700/month, so we had to pay the difference of $1,100/month.

$1025 taxes, HOA, insurance, utilities (seems low).

Without knowing any specifics, my ballpark numbers would be below.

Taxes: $650/month
HOA: $150/month
Insurance: $250/month
Utilities: $450/month

I'm getting $1500/month for those items.


tips^up

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2019, 10:40:24 AM »
Without knowing any specifics, my ballpark numbers would be below.

Taxes: $650/month
HOA: $150/month
Insurance: $250/month
Utilities: $450/month

I'm getting $1500/month for those items.

Hey clarkfan1979 - I'm sure you know our taxes are relatively cheap in CO!

Total actual taxes = $5764.  Estimated taxes based on purchase price of $870k = $6188.  $480 and $516 respectively.
Actual HOA fee = $300/yr, $25/mo.
Insurance...not sure.  Took a guess based on my 2 other properties in this market, but I agree my estimate was likely optimistic at $120/mo
Utilities, I was at $400/mo.  $450 probably in the range, historic amounts support $400.
I also did not include maintenance (1% of estimated $3500 rent), management (10%; I intend to self-manage at this point, but should be considered) and reserves for replacement (3%) in my original calculations.  Re-running the numbers:

$516 taxes
$25 HOA
$200 insurance
$400 util
$35 maintenance
$350 management
$105 reserves
$1515 expenses
+$3125 mortgage
$4640 total cost of ownership
-$3500 rent
=$1140 net cost of ownership
rent out current house for $2300
Monthly cash flow = $1160, ~$14k/yr

I appreciate the input, keeping me honest in my estimates!  Now we're waiting on the realtor to get back to us.

former player

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2019, 11:53:18 AM »
Real estate is your business, so you ought to know what you are doing.  Personally I would not buy a property for which there is no obvious local market after a long period of rising prices and in an area where previous recessions have "hit house prices hard" expecting to make money on its resale.

tips^up

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2020, 09:59:47 AM »
UPDATE: he who hesitates and wastes time asking questions on internet forums is lost.

The house went under contract to another party and closed for $870,000.  I'll keep looking, but this one was not to be.

secondcor521

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2020, 12:15:35 PM »
Not an expert at all in rentals, but I thought landlords typically figure in some percentage for vacancies, which I didn't see mentioned or listed anywhere in this thread so far...?

waltworks

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2020, 05:05:29 PM »
UPDATE: he who hesitates and wastes time asking questions on internet forums is lost.

The house went under contract to another party and closed for $870,000.  I'll keep looking, but this one was not to be.

Ah, shucks. On the bright side, you don't have to sweat the HOA...

-W

ice_beard

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2020, 11:24:56 PM »
It's in Eagle, CO.  A relatively affordable bedroom community to Vail and Beaver Creek.  As long as Vail Resorts is still in business, I don't see our local market crashing long-term.  I believe the rental revenue is pretty accurate and could be higher.

Anecdotal and potentially not too related to your situation, but....  Vail is rapidly becoming very unpopular with Tahoe area skiers.  They clearly don't care about skiers, only increasing their bottom line.  They closed Kirkwood last season in April when they had snow to last until June.  (Squaw ran limited ops until 7/4) and they decided to charge for parking at NoStar AFTER the majority of season passes had been sold.  They aren't putting any money into Heavenly either.  Most are wishing they'd leave town. 
I wouldn't put my money down on any town dependent upon Vail Corp., but that's just me.
   

waltworks

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2020, 06:47:36 AM »
Vail doesn't make their money off locals who want to ski until June, dude. I wouldn't be worried about the town's prospects because Vail runs the resorts. If anything the opposite, they've got quite a track record.

Now, keep in mind, I'd prefer my ski town the way it was before Vail, personally.

-W

tips^up

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2020, 11:49:53 AM »


Anecdotal and potentially not too related to your situation, but....  Vail is rapidly becoming very unpopular with Tahoe area skiers.  They clearly don't care about skiers, only increasing their bottom line.  They closed Kirkwood last season in April when they had snow to last until June.  (Squaw ran limited ops until 7/4) and they decided to charge for parking at NoStar AFTER the majority of season passes had been sold.  They aren't putting any money into Heavenly either.  Most are wishing they'd leave town. 
I wouldn't put my money down on any town dependent upon Vail Corp., but that's just me.
   
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Maybe we should start a new thread on VR?!  I am not personally a fan, for many reasons.  Like paying minimum wage in the most expensive resort areas.  These employees will eventually have families.  THESE ARE THE FUTURE SKIERS AND BOARDERS once the boomers clear out.  Why not pay liveable wages so they can flourish in these areas, breed the next generation of customers, and actually afford to ski and snowboard?!  Locally, they just (day before Christmas!) announced all mountain finance jobs are being moved to Broomfield.  I deal with them professionally, they (their attorneys) are aggressive, ruthless, not good people.

I'm leaving Friday for a Tahoe ski trip (Squawlpine mostly, some touring, maybe a nordic day, Railroad Earth concert.  Driving, so Park City on the return leg).  My Tahoe buddies wouldn't let me ski Flatstar or Heavenly if I begged them.  I still have never visited Kirkwood, I hear it's legit and gets the greatest amount of snow.  They're no fans of VR.  On our first anniversary, my wife visited these characters and we skied Squaw on the Fourth of July in shorts and tshirt.  It was warmer on the mountain than on the beaches!  But yeah, Vail sucks.

waltworks

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2020, 06:03:54 PM »
Here's what kills me - I work at the food pantry at the Christian Center in PC. Ok, I don't get paid, but our family collectively puts in a solid 10-15 hours a week of running the joint.

At least 50% of our clients are J-1 visa kids (foreign college age kids imported by Vail to bus tables and such for almost no money). A significant chunk of the others are also resort employees.

We are, in effect, subsidizing Vail resorts by feeding their underpaid workers.

Now, I don't begrudge these kids food. And the amount of wasted food (especially produce and bread) is insane, so it's good to be putting some of it to use. But still... it grates a little to be, in essence, working for free to boost Vail's bottom line.

They do contribute a bunch of money to lots of charities locally... but I'd rather see them pay better.

And yes I'd pay more for a season pass.

-W
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 06:06:49 PM by waltworks »

Telecaster

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Re: Looking at new house - $899,900, ~6000sf, 7 bedrooms
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2020, 06:43:03 PM »
The thing that chaps me about VR is they know the value of their product.  And boy howdy, they extract every thin dime out of their customers.  I'm not entirely sure that's healthy, but it seems to work for them.