Legalizing an unpermitted sunroom and workshop

[shanaling]

Hi there. Thanks in advance for helping out. In escrow for a property and found out that the permitted patio was enclosed into a sunroom without pulling permits. Also a room was added to the detached garage without a permit and functioned as a workshop. I know each city is different, but in general are these usually easy to bring to code?

The good news is all of the property’s livable space is permitted.

[uniwelder]

I think you're asking two different things.  Just because the work was done without a permit, doesn't necessarily mean its not to code.  Have you had a general home inspection done yet for the house you're buying?  I would make sure the inspector knows those two areas didn't have a permit and ask him to spend a few extra minutes checking them, though most inspectors probably won't look for much detail and can't see what's behind drywall.

[sonofsven]

Your range of possibilities:
"no big deal, here just pay this permit fee"
"sorry, you'll need to tear that down"

Most likely you're somewhere in the middle. The only way to know is to contact the permit office and start the process, unfortunately.

I sold a house with an unpermitted half bath years ago in a hot market, noted it on the disclosure form, nobody cared, sale went through.

[LaineyAZ]

I went through this years ago while attempting a mortgage refinance.  The mortgage company noted a discrepancy between the City's blueprints for my house and my actual square footage.
Yes, the previous owner had added an indoor laundry area of about 150 sq. feet which was never permitted but that alone brought everything to a screeching halt. 

The remedy was to get 2 sets of new accurate blueprints and deliver them to the City code/permit office for review.  Luckily, the City had recently passed an ordinance which said that anything like that which was done 15+ years ago would be grandfathered in, so in my case I was okay.  They stamped my new blueprints and the mortgage re-finance proceeded after I paid a fee of about $150. 

So be prepared for them to be nit-picky but treat them with extra respect and just do what they require - they know they can make life difficult and some code enforcers really get off on that power.

[ncornilsen]

I assume this came up on a disclosure? How do you know they don't have permits?
When were these supposedly unpermitted structures built?
Were permits required then?
Could someone even prove they didn't have permits? For example, in a city I used to live in, there was a fire that destroyed all their paper based permits... so anything built before that time may or may not have a permit... no way to know. So if it plausibly could be built before that time, maybe it was permitted?

In some jurisdictions, you would be required to have the work built to current codes, so you could open up an entire can of worms.

[beekayworld]

Is there any electrical or plumbing within the new walls in either structure?

[shanaling]

We asked the city for permits and learned that the open patio was permitted in 1995 but the walls that enclosed them were not permitted. And the workshop as well. Both have electrical in the walls. I would need these permitted to replace the roof. I guess worse case scenario i tear down the walls and reverse it back to the permitted open patio and tear down workshop.

[secondcor521]

Part of the permitting process is the inspections.  If there's electrical there, then there probably should have been an electrical inspection.  There may also have been a framing inspection needed as well.  If it's already sheetrocked, then those two inspections can be hard to do.  There's also a permit fee, and, at least where I live, I think there's also an additional fee for stuff you should have permitted ahead of time but got permitted after the fact.

Since you're only in escrow, I think it'd be reasonable to either ask the seller to take care of bringing it up to code, or reserve some additional funds from seller in escrow to take care of bringing it up to code, depending on whether you care to wait for the problems to be fixed before you move in or are OK with it being solved after you move in.

[soulpatchmike]

I had a friend that put in 2 bedrooms, 2 egress windows, a rec room and bathroom without permitting in his basement.  When he sold he fretted terribly about it when they told him it has to be inspected.  The inspectors came in for electrical and construction and both looked at the finished product and said, "looks like you know what you are doing"  asked a couple of questions about how he did things behind the walls and then approved the inspection.  He did have to improve the attachment of the egress window wells to the foundation, but other than that it was just the cost of permitting, I think around $500.  That is what made my buddy the most upset. 

YMMV, but I think post-construction inspections being approved with limited changes is pretty common unless the structure is specifically not allowed to be on the land for some reason.  Worst case is that you have to open up a portion of a wall, but my guess is not likely.

[affordablehousing]

why need a permit at all? For a simple roof replacement? Just get some off-hours guys to do it on a weekday. I can understand getting a permit if you're doing a vertical addition, but what's the point for a roof replacement?

[shanaling]

Because the city requires permit for roof replacement. In order to get this permit, i need to get sunroof and workshop permitted. Yea we asked for repair credits. Its a trust sale being sold as is.

[ncornilsen]

Because the city requires permit for roof replacement. In order to get this permit, i need to get sunroof and workshop permitted. Yea we asked for repair credits. Its a trust sale being sold as is.

Yikes. A city that requires a permit for a roof is probably going to be a pain in the keister on your unpermitted additions.

Have fun, and don't be surprised if the workshop has to be torn down and the patio restored.

[shanaling]

Got it. Thats fine with me. Lol the whole Los Angeles County requires roof permits.

[Jon Bon]

why need a permit at all? For a simple roof replacement? Just get some off-hours guys to do it on a weekday. I can understand getting a permit if you're doing a vertical addition, but what's the point for a roof replacement?

Tax Revenue.

[theoverlook]

Yikes. A city that requires a permit for a roof is probably going to be a pain in the keister on your unpermitted additions.

I'm curious what cities don't require permits on roofs. A roof is one of the most important systems in a building. Where I live requires permits but the zoning and permitting office, for the few times I've interacted with them, has been really easy to get along with and quite accommodating, within their limits of course.

[affordablehousing]

Well I mean every city req

[affordablehousing]

well I mean every city requires a permit for everything, but that doesn't mean that most people get one. The permit for a reroof is probably what, $400? But, if you're neighbors are horrible, or you're super into crossing every t and dotting every i, sounds like you're in for quite a process.

[theoverlook]

Roof permit fee here is $70. The inspector actually got up on my roof and looked things over; I was happy to have a neutral third party making sure things were done right.

Edit: I forgot there's a 1% fee on top of that, i think. So $70 + 1% of project. Mine was a $27,000 roof so $270 + 70 = $340. Not far off your estimate.

[affordablehousing]

Ha, inspectors in general are idiots in my experience. They have 8 appointments a day, plus driving time, and that could be whole house construction to a reroof. Our inspector didn't even look at the basement we added with all the mechanicals. And the framing inspector missed a group of 5 studs in a row that had been overnotched. I mentioned it to him and took his phone out to Google it!!! That guy got fired later at least but don't rely on a city inspector to do ANYTHING but waste your money.

[theoverlook]

Anecdote does not equal data. I do not decide that all people in a given field are idiots because I ran across one.

[affordablehousing]

To each their own. If you think there's a value to a permit, good on ya. I'll go right on my merry way thinking they are pointless, and inspectors to boot.

[Jon Bon]

Roof permit fee here is $70. The inspector actually got up on my roof and looked things over; I was happy to have a neutral third party making sure things were done right.

Edit: I forgot there's a 1% fee on top of that, i think. So $70 + 1% of project. Mine was a $27,000 roof so $270 + 70 = $340. Not far off your estimate.

Yeah that is fine, they are not worthless but they can be a PITA. Really a $70 fee sounds reasonable for a roof permit. Which is then used to pay for the permitting department, makes sense. That $240 extra is where they are starting to get greedy.

What pisses me off is when cities see their building departments as a revenue source and you pay mid 5 figures in permits to build a house.

My city is pretty fair about its my 1000sqft addition is <$1000 in permits.

Just reread it the post, $27k on a roof?! what the heck was it made of?

[Askel]

I'm curious what cities don't require permits on roofs. A roof is one of the most important systems in a building. Where I live requires permits but the zoning and permitting office, for the few times I've interacted with them, has been really easy to get along with and quite accommodating, within their limits of course.

Pretty much all of michigan. Unless you're replacing the underlying structure, reroofing is considered maintenance and no building permit required. Local zoning laws may vary though.   

As other's have stated- it's a big fat "depends" on where you live.  If my locality required everything to be permitted and up to code prior to further permitted work or selling- well, we'd all just have to board everything up and move away. :D 

Best thing to do is try and have a beer with a local contractor or DIYer who's gone through the permitting process a couple of times and try to feel things out. 

[theoverlook]

Just reread it the post, $27k on a roof?! what the heck was it made of?

It is big and complex.