Author Topic: Knob and tube electrical cost  (Read 2043 times)

Anniemaygo

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Knob and tube electrical cost
« on: December 18, 2021, 02:19:55 PM »
Hi All,
I am in the process of purchasing my first investment property and found one with great numbers but inspection found knob and tube in attic and some in basement.  According to the listing/owner the electrical is updated.  It does have circuit breaker boxes but then it goes to junction box and continues with knob and tube.  It’s a 3800 sq ft 3 floor 3 family.  I am in MA.
I am estimating $10-20k to redo electrical.  I am not sure how the 2nd floor would get done, I think lots of holes in the wall and then put 1/4” over all the existing walls. 

The inspector found some outlets grounded, so not quite sure what’s in the walls, but prefer to assume the worst.

Anyone have experience with this?  No specific questions, just looking for any insight if someone has been thru this before.

Jon Bon

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2021, 12:12:35 PM »
I believe the old rule of thumb was $100 per fixture, so every outlet, switch and light would be $100 each.

Granted that is an old rule, and with the price of materials and labor now....

That's a big house to redo, 20k might get it done but I bet you could find someone willing to quote you a whole lot more so be careful. Putting up new drywall over the whole house? to cover all the wholes?  Yeah your looking at alot more to redo all that sheetrock as well as repaint basically the entire house. Yeah K&T sucks.




Sibley

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2021, 02:22:44 PM »
Why in the world would you put drywall up everywhere when it's far easier to patch the holes? And yes, it's a massive pain to patch. Still easier.

I'm serious. You add drywall everywhere, and you've now messed up every single outlet and fixture in the house, plus very possibly a bunch of the bathroom and kitchen. And that's just functionality, it's not aesthetics. Adding drywall will mess with trim, doorways, windows, etc. If its otherwise a nice house, you're doing to hurt the value by willy nilly adding drywall.

I had my house rewired, and I chose my electricians unwisely. Even with the mess I had it was FAR easier to patch than cover. Get quotes, get references, and assuming you can use Romex that's going to help (depends on your local code). You work from the attic and basement/crawlspace as much as possible to get the wires where they need to be. You cut holes in the wall only as needed. It's very possible to minimize the damage to the walls. As long as you're very sure that you've disconnected all the old wires you can leave them in place. (Watch out for secondary panels.)

I also think you're massively underestimating the costs. My house is 1400sq ft and I paid close to $10k 3 years ago. Costs are way up since then.

Cadman

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2021, 02:47:23 PM »
I realize this is slightly different being the end goal is an investment property, but typically K&T wiring is considered safe as long as it hasn't been buried in insulation. The usual MO is to leave it be unless you're going to gut down to the studs. If it's properly fused, which it sounds like it is, then there's no danger. Now, if your inspector found aluminum wire, that'd be cause for concern.

Adding to the situation, copper is at an all-time high... this could be one costly endeavor.

sonofsven

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2021, 05:26:16 PM »
If you can, find someone good that works on a time and material basis, as in, paid by the hour (key word: GOOD).
I know all the advice for homeowners says the opposite, but I've done a lot of T & M over the years and I make more $$ doing bid work, consistently.
When the work to be completed is hidden the contactor needs to bid high to cover the unknown. When doing big remodels I would always get bids after demo because the bids would be lower. It's safer if you can see the work.
Ideally on this kind of job, if you're going to doing a ton of wall repair, it would be best to demo most all of the walls and re do all the plumbing, electric, insulation, etc. If there's knob and tube still pretty good chance there will be other sub standard systems.
I realize it's not always possible, or necessary, to go this route, and a careful worker can do a good job with minimal damage. I've seen electricians simply make huge round holes around every box, don't let them do that as it's so much harder to repair.
As far as price, way too many variables to say and I haven't been doing remodeling in a while, either, but electricians are the most expensive trade.

Somehow I missed the post from Cadman, but I would agree that it could be left alone, fwiw.

Papa bear

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2021, 06:45:24 PM »
When I last asked an electrician what a whole house rewire would cost, he back of napkin quoted $8/sf. 

Now, K&T wiring is mainly safe to have in your house as long as it hasn’t been tampered with.  (the clothe insulation does get brittle as well). They ran that stuff with the hot and neutral pretty damn far apart, and with any penetration, it was run through ceramic tubes, and twisted around ceramic knobs at 90’s. so there is little chance of arcing.  Where you have problems are when the wiring gets added on to, or the breaker changes and you start to push the K&T beyond what it was designed to do. 

I’ve still got some k&t wiring in some of my rentals where they are still running some lights or switches.  If you know what you’re working with it can be safe.

You can also gfci the ungrounded k&t lines and update them as well.

Not a deal breaker in a house at all. But if you are unfamiliar, maybe have an electrician do a once over to see what’s safe or not.


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Sibley

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2021, 09:01:47 PM »
You're forgetting, or at least not mentioning, that insurance companies don't like K&T. Last I checked more than one wouldn't insure properties that had it. Even if the company will insure it, you can bet you'll pay a higher premium.

But yes, it's not inherently bad. It does become a problem if you're massively overloading it because we have more than a handful of lamps and a radio that requires electricity. (Yes, I'm exaggerating some, but the power loads of a modern home are much higher than standard in the early 20th century. they didn't have computers and a/c.) Sheer age can cause problems, and whatever may have been done to it over the past x years can be a problem.

jpdx

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2021, 12:38:38 AM »
If it were my house to live in, I'd rewire the whole house for peace of mind. But for a rental property, I'd probably leave most of the K&T so long as it is working correctly. Circuits that are easily accessible, such as in the basement, go ahead and rewire with romex.

Most renters don't consider the type of wiring in the walls when they chose a place to live. Grounded vs two-prong outlets could factor in to their decision, however, so you could consider replacing the ungrounded outlets with GFCIs. So long as the electrical system is providing reliable service -- not tripping breakers, lights not flickering or dimming when they toast a bagel, etc -- they'll be happy.

If are are adding insulation, such as in the attic, you may have no choice but to rewire.

Car Jack

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2021, 08:17:12 AM »
DW's aunt had K & T wiring leftover from long ago.  3 decker in Worcester built in 1895.  In order to get insurance, an electrician had to certify that no K & T was active (none was).  I would recommend that you first check to see if any is active.  If there is, it needs to be deactivated.  I would highly recommend that once that's done that you go around and remove all those wires and all the knobs you can easily reach.  You could easily have insurance and the company gets bought by one of the big guys and then requires a re-inspection.  Of course, the fun addition was that there was plenty of asbestos insulation and panels and tiles and lots of lead paint.  The house was sold when the aunt went into assisted living.  Zillow said it was worth $295k.  It sold "as is" to a family who intended to DIY fix it up and rent out 2 of the floors.  Selling price was $135k, which was $50k more than I expected it would ever bring.

Fishindude

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2021, 02:20:50 PM »
Any knob & tube wiring is going to be at least 70 years old.   Even if it is stull functioning, etc. the insulation on the wire is probably very brittle and could be missing in places.
I'd replace it all with proper new wiring.   Not worth the risk.

affordablehousing

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2021, 03:14:18 PM »
If it's kept as a rental I think K&T is fine. The issue is more when you try to put insulation against it and run higher draw appliances, heating up the wires. For a house that size I could easily see the electrical cost as over $40K, with $8K to patch drywall. This would be a MAJOR endeavor and expense.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2021, 03:34:38 PM »
Most renters don't consider the type of wiring in the walls when they chose a place to live. Grounded vs two-prong outlets could factor in to their decision, however, so you could consider replacing the ungrounded outlets with GFCIs. So long as the electrical system is providing reliable service -- not tripping breakers, lights not flickering or dimming when they toast a bagel, etc -- they'll be happy.
My old house that I turned into a rental was basically that exact situation. Most of the house had ungrounded outlets, so I went through an made sure there was at least one three prong GFCI outlet in each room, and places were electronics would be expected to be plugged in. I think my total cost was under $100, and maybe two hours of my time, and so far none of the renters have complained (or even mentioned the outlets).

ChpBstrd

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2021, 03:35:59 PM »
I don't think the K&T is fine. It's an electrocution risk for anyone who comes near it, and is just waiting for a piece of paper or an animal to close the circuit and create a fire. There's a reason so many houses burnt down back in the day. Now we're using 10x the amperage on all our various devices, so they'll get hot too. Not being able to insulate the house will cost whoever pays the bills extra hundreds of dollars per year.

If you leave it, good luck finding insurance. That's always the first question agents ask about old homes.

I rewired a K&T house. The K&T was only across the attic, and transitioned to cloth-wrapped double insulated 14 gauge as it went down into the walls. I was mostly able to attach new wire to the old wire at the outlets and switches, and pull the new wire up into the attic, where the circuits met in new junction boxes and led to a new electrical panel. This worked because the wires weren't stapled to anything inside the walls, but it was still a major effort involving belly crawling and frustration under the edge of the roof. If you can pull off a few exterior planks at the top of the wall, it's a good opportunity to rewire and blow in insulation at the same time.

If that's not working, another approach is to pull off the baseboards (assuming they are not fancy antique woodwork) and run all new lines through and under them, abandoning everything else and cutting away any wiring in the attic or basement. Then you put the baseboards and trim back where it came from.

For antique houses with architecturally valuable stained wood trim, I've seen plastic channel used to route wiring around the room. It's a little tacky, but also not destructive.

Jon Bon

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2021, 11:02:24 AM »
I don't think the K&T is fine. It's an electrocution risk for anyone who comes near it, and is just waiting for a piece of paper or an animal to close the circuit and create a fire. There's a reason so many houses burnt down back in the day. Now we're using 10x the amperage on all our various devices, so they'll get hot too. Not being able to insulate the house will cost whoever pays the bills extra hundreds of dollars per year.

If you leave it, good luck finding insurance. That's always the first question agents ask about old homes.

I rewired a K&T house. The K&T was only across the attic, and transitioned to cloth-wrapped double insulated 14 gauge as it went down into the walls. I was mostly able to attach new wire to the old wire at the outlets and switches, and pull the new wire up into the attic, where the circuits met in new junction boxes and led to a new electrical panel. This worked because the wires weren't stapled to anything inside the walls, but it was still a major effort involving belly crawling and frustration under the edge of the roof. If you can pull off a few exterior planks at the top of the wall, it's a good opportunity to rewire and blow in insulation at the same time.

If that's not working, another approach is to pull off the baseboards (assuming they are not fancy antique woodwork) and run all new lines through and under them, abandoning everything else and cutting away any wiring in the attic or basement. Then you put the baseboards and trim back where it came from.

For antique houses with architecturally valuable stained wood trim, I've seen plastic channel used to route wiring around the room. It's a little tacky, but also not destructive.

So I guess I will bite?

I feel like you are being pretty unfair here.

1. All electrical lines are just waiting for something to close the circuit and it will arc, it's how it works. K&T is spaced about a foot apart generally. Romex is right next to each other.
2. Animals can chew on romex too
3. Higher Amperage? In what? Lights are 1/10 of what they used to be, Most major appliances use way less junice than they used too. Yes a K&T 240 votlts for an eclectic dryer would be a bad idea, as well as a hairdryer in a bathroom.
4. There is a reason many houses burnt down in the day. But it is not knob and tube, it's running six fireplaces every day, its heating with coal, its using open flame for light, its lack of smoke detectors, and everyone was constantly smoking.
5. Lots of houses have K&T but also have insurance, they are no mutually exclusive.

I mean yes it should be replaced if possible, and maybe OP should pass on the deal over this, but not everything is always black and white  or hot and neutral :)



affordablehousing

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2021, 11:35:49 AM »
K&T was a very smart system, with the two lines usually kept a good distance away. My experience is the issues come from how much monkeying around was done. Is this a crummy rental? A nice rental? Historic? Kept up and maintained? I do think this will cost a fortune for that big a house, and should be done in conjunction with insulation. And likely a good time to replace all the piping if you still have galvanized? I would search for an insurer that doesn't care- we've had two insured houses with K&T, ungrounded outlets and I don't think that was ever even brought up, though it was disclosed.

I would plan on a pretty major, and very unsatisfying renovation of around $120K, that won't raise the rent at all but help the longevity of the building. Plan for it 10 years out after you've made some money on rent.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2021, 03:59:26 PM »


So I guess I will bite?

I feel like you are being pretty unfair here.

1. All electrical lines are just waiting for something to close the circuit and it will arc, it's how it works. K&T is spaced about a foot apart generally. Romex is right next to each other.
To create a closed circuit with Romex, one would have to penetrate the outside layer and also penetrate the line wire's insulation and also form a circuit to the ground. This would require a knife or a nail hitting it exactly the wrong way. To create a closed circuit with K&T, just touch it, lay a board over it, let it stretch with thermal expansion and contraction until it touches lumber, set a box on it, add insulation, or whatever. If it is fabric-wrapped, the 80 y/o fabric will likely disintegrate.
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2. Animals can chew on romex too
If an animal walks across K&T, they can close a circuit with their paws and tail, catch on fire, etc. Ask me about the petrified shell of a cat I found in the attic of the K&T house I redid, lol.
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3. Higher Amperage? In what? Lights are 1/10 of what they used to be, Most major appliances use way less junice than they used too. Yes a K&T 240 votlts for an eclectic dryer would be a bad idea, as well as a hairdryer in a bathroom.
A house with K&T was built to handle the amperage of an 1880's-1940's household, and that meant no dishwasher, TV, washer, dryer, computers/monitors, christmas lights, stereo, steam mop, etc. A refrigerator, maybe 10 incandescent light bulbs, and perhaps a vacuum were the use cases. They did not anticipate space heaters, air conditioners, etc.
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4. There is a reason many houses burnt down in the day. But it is not knob and tube, it's running six fireplaces every day, its heating with coal, its using open flame for light, its lack of smoke detectors, and everyone was constantly smoking.
In today's world, electric issues are the 3rd leading cause of house fires. That's with the vast majority of homes having electrical systems that are much less likely to catch on fire. Google is not forthcoming on how the odds of an average house burning down has changed over time, but I can only assume that as one increases each risk independently one multiplies the fire risk. The risks listed above certainly contributed, but K&T contributed as well. Otherwise better techniques would never have been invented and people would not be willing to pay extra for the better materials.
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5. Lots of houses have K&T but also have insurance, they are no mutually exclusive.
They also pay higher rates and have fewer insurance companies that will cover them. At some point, one must think about the K&T wiring as a liability that costs hundreds of dollars per year extra in insurance, but will also cost thousands of dollars to replace (if you pay someone to do it for you). It's kind of like the effect on utility bills of a leaky pipe or a window with a broken pane. As time goes on, I would expect the options to dwindle for K&T homes.

At some point, when a circuit or box must be replaced or when the system needs to be expanded, the electricians will explain that they cannot tie into or modify a K&T system, and at that point the homeowner will be stuck with the options of doing without electricity or paying for a full house up-to-code upgrade. It's a financial and fire liability that will continue to cost, one way or another, until and unless it is replaced.

PMJL34

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Re: Knob and tube electrical cost
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2021, 10:25:47 PM »
Knob and tube fear is way overblown. Is romex better? of course, but that doesn't mean that K&T needs to be immediately replaced or else the house will burn down. That's just fear mongering.

OP this is a very, very expensive/messy/time consuming project that most likely doesn't need to be done and/or doesn't pencil out for a rental unless we are talking 1+mil purchase price. My best guess is over 50K when it's all said and done because we are talking about one huge house! Feel free to get quotes.

I agree with affordablehousing that this is something you would do when you are ready to do a full blown make over of the home. Not something you do as a standalone project.

 

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