Author Topic: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?  (Read 1808 times)

Dr Kidstache

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Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« on: October 23, 2021, 01:21:58 PM »
I'm under contract on a townhouse and there's a roof leak issue. I don't know anything about construction but my gut is that the roof design is concerning enough to walk away. I don't want to make too little or too much out of the roof issue, though, and would appreciate knowledgeable feedback.

The unit I'm under contract for had a leak develop this past week through a top floor bedroom ceiling. The building has a flat roof with a deck and pergola on it. Via the seller's agent, the seller had $10,000 of roof work done a few years ago but I have no details beyond that. The home inspection found evidence of water damage (but not active leaking) at another location on the top floor ceiling as well. The source of the leaks couldn't be determined from the roof because much of the roof is covered by a deck but the big leak appeared to be originating from the building's exterior wall where home inspector observed water running off the shingling of the side wall bordering the deck and behind the siding in the area of the leak. He also was concerned that the deck elements sitting on top of the impermeable membrane (the deck supports and the posts for the pergola) were causing water to pool & those might be leak sites.

My agent and I were able to be at the house yesterday when the seller's repair person came to take a look. I was expecting a roofer. Instead she hired a handyman. He seems competent but said he hasn't done warranties before. He removed the ceiling in the area of the active leak. The insulation was soaked, as was the plywood subfloor and the the joists. He noted that there was rubber spray in the area that was currently leaking which must have been part of an older inadequate repair. Being able to see where the water was coming from, he thinks it's leaking from around where the pergola posts are sitting on the membrane but won't know for sure until the deck is removed, the posts jacked up, the membrane cut open, and whatever is in-between the membrane and the subfloor cut through (the subflooring is level while the rooftop is slanted so he isn't sure what material was used to slant the rooftop). He was supposed to be starting on that today and my realtor went by to see what was happening but noone was there when she stopped by so she's trying to contact the project manager.

Bigger picture, the units are all 3 stories with the top being a flat roof with deck and pergola. They're 6-7 years old. I've talked to several owners and the head of the HOA. Many of the units have had multiple roof leaks (including all 3 owners I talked to). According to the head of the HOA, the roofs were installed improperly with the seams not sealed and the membrane cut too short in some areas around doorways. He said the owners were not able to go after the builder because lawyers told them the builder was "untouchable" (dunno what that means exactly but that's all I got). He said most of the leaks have been cheap to repair with patching so long as they're not under the deck. The units are fee simple and the owners are responsible for everything exterior. The HOA currently doesn't do any maintenance and the head of the HOA sounds pretty frustrated and it sounds a bit dysfunctional. I asked about being able to change the angle of the top of the sidewall to have it dump water off the side of the building instead of onto the deck but he said it would have to go through the architectural committee for the broader master development association that controls the entire commercial/residential area. Both the home inspector and the handyman who have looked at the roof so far have said they think these roofs are going to have recurrent leaks because of the design.

What do y'all think?


Dr Kidstache

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2021, 01:34:04 PM »


lhamo

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2021, 01:44:23 PM »
I would walk away.

That kind of house is currently getting built a lot in Seattle, which seems INSANE to me.  This is not a flat roof amenable climate.

chemistk

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2021, 01:48:05 PM »
Yeah I'd walk. A structure less than 10 years old with roof leaks? How can you guarantee shortcuts weren't taken elsewhere?

If it were a SFH, then I'd say you had a case to make for staying under contract but with a shared structure and an HOA whose hands are already tied? You're setting yourself up for a lot of unnecessary headaches.


Okay my brain stopped me and pulled me back to your username. I spaced and forgot your other thread. Given your needs, would you be out of options otherwise? I really worry about what those roofs are like in the winter but if you feel comfortable with this place and you're not seeing much in the way of alternatives, I think I'd insist that you get a real deal roofer in there and completely assess the situation.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 01:52:05 PM by chemistk »

Fishindude

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2021, 08:52:52 AM »
That's pretty terrible design, setting all of that stuff on top of the roof membrane.   
It's going to be prone to leaks, and with all that stuff on top, leaks will be difficult and expensive to repair.

waltworks

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2021, 10:33:10 AM »
I'm amazed you found something that will work, given how hard it sounded like it was going to be to find somewhere with the right light/layout/etc in your previous thread. Plus there's only *one* condo for sale in that whole area right now.

So if this place is otherwise perfect/unicorn property for you, I'd suck it up and buy it and live with repairing the roof periodically.

If, on the other hand, you're just not as picky as you said before and actually there are plenty of places/layouts you could live with, I'd bail and wait for something else to come up. The roof itself is less concerning to me than the bizarre structure of the HOA/management through the developer angle.

-W

theoverlook

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2021, 07:52:37 AM »
Just in those limited scope pictures I see a couple concerning things. Untreated cedar in contact with the roof membrane (and showing moisture damage) and the end cut of lumber (that is hard to tell if treated but does look like it is) showing rot / water damage. Given what you've said and what the photos show it looks like a maintenance nightmare to me. The only thing that gives me pause is how limited the availability is where you're at. But I wouldn't be surprised to hear the roof needs torn off, deck needs redone, etc. The roof was a problem when brand new and it's several years old now. The most I would expect out of an average residential flat roof is 15 years. Anything more is good. You have a poorly installed one with additional problems, so I'd say those roofs are reaching end of life.

Hire your own roofer to go look. It may be hard to get them out there since you don't own it yet. But if you find one that will do it for a few hundred dollars it would be well worth it to have an unbiased and qualified opinion. A handyman may be good, but he's not a roofer.

Sibley

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2021, 08:15:24 AM »
I assume it's not an option to just lose the deck entirely? It would at least simplify repairs, now and in future.

TrMama

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2021, 09:07:58 AM »
Sorry you're stuck with this choice. If there were other housing options, I'd never suggest you take this house. In your shoes I'd only buy it under the assumption you'll have to completely replace the roof.

I assume it's not an option to just lose the deck entirely? It would at least simplify repairs, now and in future.

I would absolutely tear that deck and pergola out and not replace them. Why have something up there that's going to cause the roof to leak?

Also, I'm interested in this thread because there are a bunch of SFH and townhouses being built on a lot that adjoins ours that have similar looking roof decks. Initially I thought it was a cool way to add outdoor space to a house with a tiny footprint, but maybe it's not such a great idea after all . . .

SunnyDays

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2021, 10:05:29 AM »
Run away, run away!  This is not the only place that will ever be on the market, and for what it's going to cost you in roof repairs (at minimum, assuming leaks haven't caused other internal damage), you could just pay more for rent.  Never mind the stress that will come along with this house.

Dr Kidstache

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2021, 10:17:14 AM »
Thank you all for your responses. They were really helpful. I talked it over with my agent again and I decided to withdraw my offer on the townhouse. Because of the way the owners association is structured, I'd have total responsibility for fixing the leaks but no ability to change the roof design to prevent them from recurring (can't take roof structures off, can't change drainage onto roof from sidewall, etc). I just don't feel comfortable taking that on.

While the market is really tight here, I do have some time and there are a few other developments that might have units that would be workable. Units have listed in all of them over the past few weeks and while they weren't the right light level/setup/whatever for my needs, I'm optimistic that they'll continue to pop up. I have some time so I think I'll roll the dice and hope for the best.


sonofsven

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2021, 12:22:20 PM »
Yeah, that's not built right at all! The whole deck/pergola sitting on the membrane? Nooo.
Terrible.
Anytime you have living space under a flat roof deck, porch, whatever,  you have a good chance of serious damage. It can be done right, but the potential is much greater.
Six to seven years old and multiple roof leaks? How "builders" like this stay in business, I don't understand.
Is it windy there? That might be part of the problem, the structure getting knocked around by the wind wearing right through the membrane?
Regardless, there's lots of places for it to leak.
That handyperson should figure it out and do a nice job, then do every other unit in the building, cha ching.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 12:25:52 PM by sonofsven »

former player

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2021, 02:02:17 PM »
Pity to lose out on something that is otherwise suitable, but I agree that a heavy pergola like that sitting on top of an unsuitable flat roof structure is an unresolveable issue.  Taking the pergola off altogether is the only half-way satisfatory solution, and if the HOA is against that then walking away is best - in time the HOA may come to its senses but there's no guarantee.

TrMama

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2021, 02:12:19 PM »
I'm not an expert by any means, but shouldn't the posts of the pergola be anchored to the house? It looks like they're just sitting on the roof. I'd be nervous that the whole pergola would blow off in a strong windstorm. Maybe this location doesn't get strong winds though?

theoverlook

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2021, 07:24:11 AM »
There are roof membranes and insulation that are made for having roof decks sitting on them. We had a roof deck put on our commercial building at a tenant's cost, and as part of that our roofer put on Densdeck roofing boards and heavier membrane where the deck posts sit. The deck posts were put in large steel spreader plates to spread the load out, nothing like what I see on that roof of a piece of wood directly in contact with the roof membrane.

Fishindude

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2021, 12:26:35 PM »
There are roof membranes and insulation that are made for having roof decks sitting on them. We had a roof deck put on our commercial building at a tenant's cost, and as part of that our roofer put on Densdeck roofing boards and heavier membrane where the deck posts sit. The deck posts were put in large steel spreader plates to spread the load out, nothing like what I see on that roof of a piece of wood directly in contact with the roof membrane.

The above measures will extend the life somewhat but it's still a bad idea and will be prone to leaks.   Will also be very expensive to repair those leaks when they occur.

theoverlook

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2021, 01:28:47 PM »
There are roof membranes and insulation that are made for having roof decks sitting on them. We had a roof deck put on our commercial building at a tenant's cost, and as part of that our roofer put on Densdeck roofing boards and heavier membrane where the deck posts sit. The deck posts were put in large steel spreader plates to spread the load out, nothing like what I see on that roof of a piece of wood directly in contact with the roof membrane.

The above measures will extend the life somewhat but it's still a bad idea and will be prone to leaks.   Will also be very expensive to repair those leaks when they occur.
Sure, but sometimes the money is good enough to make it worthwhile.

Dr Kidstache

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2021, 04:11:43 PM »
There are roof membranes and insulation that are made for having roof decks sitting on them. We had a roof deck put on our commercial building at a tenant's cost, and as part of that our roofer put on Densdeck roofing boards and heavier membrane where the deck posts sit. The deck posts were put in large steel spreader plates to spread the load out, nothing like what I see on that roof of a piece of wood directly in contact with the roof membrane.

That sounds so much better than what's currently on those roofs!

sonofsven

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2021, 06:39:12 PM »
There are roof membranes and insulation that are made for having roof decks sitting on them. We had a roof deck put on our commercial building at a tenant's cost, and as part of that our roofer put on Densdeck roofing boards and heavier membrane where the deck posts sit. The deck posts were put in large steel spreader plates to spread the load out, nothing like what I see on that roof of a piece of wood directly in contact with the roof membrane.

The above measures will extend the life somewhat but it's still a bad idea and will be prone to leaks.   Will also be very expensive to repair those leaks when they occur.
Sure, but sometimes the money is good enough to make it worthwhile.
It will last long enough for the check to clear.

theoverlook

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2021, 07:55:52 PM »

It will last long enough for the check to clear.
7 years OK so far, and the tenant pays close to $80k/mo in rent so I think we'll be OK even if it does need work. Like I said, sometimes it's worth it.

PMJL34

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2021, 09:20:19 PM »
80k/month in rent?????????

GOOD GOD!!!!!!!!!!!

bill1827

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2021, 07:23:09 AM »
It's a commercial building.

sonofsven

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Re: Is this roof issue a mountain or a molehill?
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2021, 10:02:03 AM »

It will last long enough for the check to clear.
7 years OK so far, and the tenant pays close to $80k/mo in rent so I think we'll be OK even if it does need work. Like I said, sometimes it's worth it.
I was referring more to the idea of the sub par work as shown by the OP being paid for (and crap) then your specific situation. I'm glad your roof top deck is working out for you.
It's an old saying in the construction world: "How long will this last?"
"Long enough for the check to clear."
It's not something you tell the client!